Beowulf: Archived Book Discussion

Welcome! This is a special time...getting to know you and talking about what we are each looking for in the discussion of this poem.

My son was over the other night and said he read Beowulf in the eighth grade. I asked what he remembered about it, whether he liked it. His reply was "UGH". Maryal and I pledge that this will not be our(your) reaction when we get through with this discussion!

Andrea has asked which translation Maryal and I recommend. We both feel it is the Seamus Heaney, but perhaps we differ on selecting the the hard cover or the paperback.

I just got back from Barnes and Noble...looked at the two very closely. The hardcover, as Maryal point out, has the Old English on one side and the Modern Translation along side.

There is a great Introduction, Family tree and notes in the hardcover too. But the paperback contains all of the above, including many photographs and footnotes. The only thing that it lacks is the Old English and the extra $$$$$$.

So which did I buy? I'll tell you this. I tried, really tried to read the Old English. Nothing like Middle English. I love languages, love to sound out and look for familiar roots, etc. BUT I could not crack this code. The Old English is something that I will not in the near future be spending time on. Since that is the only difference between the two versions, I bought the paperback.

Some of you mentioned during the voting process that you have different versions ...and I think that's super. When we were reading Canterbury Tales, we all felt the benefits of the five different translations that were being read by our participants. There are many Beowulf translations out there. We look forward to comparing notes!

Have you read Beowulf? How long ago? What do you remember about it? Would love to hear from you.

Yes, Joan, and when we were reading The Brothers K, I don't know HOW many translations we had going. I myself used two.

As for Old English, the language (I think I'm remembering this correctly) was close to Old German and remains closer to German today than to modern English. It had not yet undergone "the Great Vowel Shift" and several other changes that occurred before Chaucer.

Old English even had a few letters we don't have anymore, like thorn which represented the "th" sound and looked something like a P with an extra line. I'm not describing that very well, and I don't seem to have a thorn on my keyboard. Hmmmmmm. How long do you think it will be before we can draw on these discussion boards? There are times when I really NEED to have that ability.

The Runic script, or Fu_ark, is thought by some scholars also to have been derived from the Etruscan, via the Alpine scripts (Lepontic, Rhaetic, and Venetic) which were current between the -3rd and -1st centuries. The oldest Germanic Runic inscription dates to about the middle of that period. Common Germanic Runic or Older Fu_ark was in general use between the 1st and 8th centuries; Nordic Runic, or the Younger Fu_rk, was in very wide use between the 9th and 12th centuries. The most complex of the Runic scripts was the Anglo-Saxon Fu_orc, which was used in England and Friesland until about the 8th century.

(Joan---Sorry--I think I might have just lost four or five readers! Ooops. But I did want everyone to see a thorn.)

An eth looks like a lower-case d with a cross mark.

I promise that I will now stop doing this. Promise. And I remind everyone that we will be reading Beowulf in Modern English.

But first, I must show you that darling eth:

Modern Icelandic orthography uses the Latin alphabet with the addition of several special diacritics and two additional letters. The diacritics include acute accents (over the vowels a, e, i, o, u, y) to mark length or to indicate distinct phonemes, and the diaresis (umlaut) combined with o to create the separate letter ?. The letters _ ("thorn") and _ ("eth") derive from the Anglo-Saxon/Latin alphabet and mark respectively the unvoiced and voiced "th" common to English and Icelandic.

Thanks for the language lesson Maryal! Brought back some memories: I took Old English lit in the original language in university; and Beowulf was one of the things we read. Of course that was so long ago that I can't remember much about it. I do know I liked the story and that we had to read a lot of it aloud in class and that being Dutch I could handle the way the language was pronounced better than others in the class.

I've got my Irving translation to use, although I will look into the Heany, and there is always the online version which I have bookmarked -just in case.

Hiya, Nellie! Good to see you again. I took Development of the Eng. Language about a hundred years ago and we read some old English too. I KNOW that your accent was better than mine. I did get so I could translate it, but I sure have lost most of what I knew.

Wake up, Joan, Nellie's here!

I'll have to bow out of Beowulf. I've read it four times. First I read it on my own. Then two times as required reading/study in college. Lastly, I read the Heaney version when it came out. I prefer the Heaney version (can't really call it a translation) but 4 times is my maximum for Beowulf. I will say that SN'ers are in for a good time with this story.

I am concentrating on my Shakespeare site at the moment and I wish everyone a pleasant read & enjoyable conversation.

Marvelle

WHOA! Nellie, you have studied Old English! You read Beowulf in OLD ENGLISH?! This is wonderful. Aren't we fortunate to have you with us! This will be a very rich discussion indeed, with you AND the prof aboard. (Still think I'll skip the Old English reading myself, but am open to persuasion.) Take a look at the opening lines of Beowulf and you'll see what I mean!

Old English Beowulf!

Marvelle, this is SO disappointing! You always add so much to these discussions! And you now know so much about Beowulf after having read it 4 times. Is there anyway we can persuade you to drop in and chat with us...while you concentrate more heavily on Shakespeare? Little social calls? I really HATE to lose you! You could help us so much!

I have been reading some background information about Beowulf. It seems that most critics believe Beowulf is divided in two different ways.

~THE YOUNG BEOWULF & THE OLD BEOWULF
~ The THREE WARS

I don't know about you, but I find the contrast between the young and the old to be more interesting ~ probably because these things interest me more now. I am leaning toward approaching the story this way, rather than the wars. What do you think?

Speaking of Shakespeare, in March I find I have the good fortune to visit Stratford for the first time in my life. We will see a production of Midsummer Night's Dream while there. Will think of you, Marvelle. Which play are you concentrating on right now?

I'm off to try to persuade Marvelle to reconsider her decision. I'm serious! But first, I want to add something about my comparison between the paperback and the hardcover Heaney translation, which may influence your decision about which to read. Besides containing the OLD ENGLISH, the hardcover print is also much larger and easier to read.

The paperback contains some wonderful essays...not sure if the hardcover has the one by J.R.R. Tolkien. When Nellie said she liked Beowulf when she read it years ago, I remember thinking to myself that the sci-fi aspect would certainly appeal to you, Nellie. By the way, Nellie is now leading the discussion on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and as soon as I saw that essay, I thought of Nellie. This author really loved Beowulf too!

Tolkien made an interesting comment which I thought I'd pass on to you all for your consideration.

"It has been thought that the Latin epic, especially the Aeneid, is perceptible in Beowulf...if only in the exciting of emulation, of the development of the long and studied poem in early England. There is a likeness in places between these greater and lesser things, the Aeneid and Beowulf, if they are read in conjunction."

Are you are at all interested in comparing Virgil's early Latin Aeneidwritten in 19 BC with Beowulf, the earliest British poem, written circa 8th century AD? Marvelle might even be interested.

I don't believe that was done by Peter, Paul & Mary.

Ok(eth). Me book - 'tis bin erddered.
That's Andy's Old English.
Joan: Have you totally lost it? Get that man back to work . He has put you over the edge! Virgil in comparison??? You are a funny lady.
but -- you and Maryal escorted me all the way to Canterbury without a hitch and I had a wonderful trip.
The only thing I do know about Beowulf is that it is a poem about a dragon. PERIOD.
Doesn't that make your day professors?
In fact I thought it was a Nordic poem.

Nellie: With the sound of that Old English gibberish, we will fit right in with the elfins.

I'll be there but it will be "in the shadow." Beowulf is totally new to me. I'm looking forward to this discussion and hoping to learn from you all. I bought Heaney's book and read most of it. Interesting!

ALF!!---Brumie!!--So good to see you both. Great Old English, ALF, because I can read it. And Brumie, it is a pleasure to have you with us. You are way ahead of ME.

I hope to get some serious Beowulf reading done this long weekend. This will be fun; I promise.

Andy, thou hath erddered. an excellent translation! The hard cover Heaney has nice large font, and yes, the Old English right beside the modern, as a constant reminder that the thing is really old. You weren't far off thinking it was Nordic, as the setting in the epic is 6th century Denmark (or Norway, Carolyn?)

"The only thing I do know about Beowulf is that it is a poem about a dragon." Good, now we are getting somewhere. Besides Beowulf, we have another character...a dragon. Which tells us that this epic has a sort of fairy-tale element, as did Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Brumie, I'm out there with you. Memory is very dim, so dim that this may as well be the first time I've read it. I do know there is another character...Grendel. Don't know how that got into my memory bank...perhaps from doing so many crossword puzzles. Anyway, he/she is there and that's a third character.

I also remember that the boys dug in way back in school (though not my son #1.) That tells me there is some sort of gore...or war action.

To be real honest, I've always thought the importance of the poem was the fact that it is the first piece of English literature that has survived (the surviving pages in the British Library are thought to date back to the 10th century) I thought that gave it its importance, as well as the historical content. However, reading around it (I'm reading some historical commentary first to get ready), I am learning that it is the language. beauty of the poetry...and that makes me really excited to read it.

The latest translation has been Seamus Heaney's and here's what I just read about it right before I dropped off to sleep last night from an essay by Daniel Donaghue:

"Heaney's turn to Beowulf is in many ways a return to the language that has always informed his poetry....a gesture of deep respect from one master poet to another across the expanse of a millenium."

I love the fact that a poet (a master poet, a Nobel Prize winning poet), not an historian, has translated this version.

Brumie, don't feel you have to go too far ahead in the actual reading of the poem. We'll break it down and go slowly so as not to miss anything! So happy to have you aboard... and look forward to getting to know you!

Well my kids read Beowulf in High School Senior Lit Class as I remember. I remember laughing with my daughter as she tried to match the translated English to the Old English. My daughter studied Russian for several years as her foreign language in high school. A niece who was proficient in Latin, and German also learned to read Old English in high school. She won some kind of scholership to Oxnard College for reading in assembly something in Old English though no one ever knows how it should sound ...even if they do translate it. In Latin Club I guess these kids just made up their own accents. I have read a few verses on line at a University poetry site but not the Heaney translation. Will go look at book store. Faith

I will lurk for this one, Joan. I've never read Beowulf, but it came up in a class I took this week so the gods seem to be pointing me in Beowulf's direction!

Sarah T.!!! Oh yes, one MUST read Beowulf, and I know it is going to be more fun here than it would be if forced upon you in high school. Welcommen!!

Beowulf was forced upon me in college as required reading for freshman English. (Or maybe the subject was Current Events, so long ago was it) My reaction at the time was the same as reported here for high school seniors: "...yetch!...and ho-hum." Many years after I did a course in Old English, but this was primarily a language course with lots of conjugations and declensions. But now I'm really enthusiastic and looking forward to reading Beowulf again.

Joan, the identifiable historical events in the epic point to a time when Scandinavia was divided into many small kingdoms. It seems to be agreed that the areas in question were in what are now Denmark and southern Sweden. Norway doesn't appear to come into it.

Carolyn

Carolyn, thanks for that. Scandinavia ~ I would imagine that Norway organized much the same as Sweden and Denmark, with groups of people gathered around one powerful lord, fighting neighboring groups ...as we find here. Do you know anything about the earliest recorded history of Norway? Can you ask some native Norwegians if they have read Beowulf? I would imagine that there is some primal attraction, or recognition. Does the Anglo-Saxon Old English resembele at all any of today's Scandinavian languages?

Sarah T, over there in the lurkers corner with Carolyn...and Brumie. This is wonderful...you are certainly welcome ~ just realize that you get called on now and again! hahaha... This translation is also a prize-winner, Sarah. It won the Whitbread Prize last year, I think it was. Sarah is our able Books & Lit Discussion Leader in Prize Fiction and an asset to our discussion here ~ even lurking.

Faith, did you get the Heaney translation. I love his bold introductory pages. He was invited by Norton Anthology of English Literature to translate Beowulf in 1980, while he was teaching at Harvard. He tried it. He painstakingly worked on 20 lines a day. He finally put it aside when he realized that he wasn't able to really get into it, couldn't capture the melody of it. He says he always thought the voice was "direct" and it wasn't until he realized it was the voice of his own Irish father's family, "the big-voiced Scullions" that he felt when reading Beowulf. He decided then and there that he was ready to apply himself to the translation ~ some 20 years later!

"I came to the task of translating Beowulf with a prejudice in favor of forthright delivery.

In one area, my own labors have been less than throrough-going. I have not followed the strict metrical rules that bound the Anglo-Saxon scop (poet). I don't always employ alliteration, and sometimes I alliterate only in one half of the line. When these breaches occur, it is because I prefer to let the natural "sound of sense" pervail over the demands of the convention. I have been reluctant to force an artificial shape or an unusual word choice just for the sake of correctness."

While I look forward to this bold approach by this masterful poet, I couldn't help but think how happy I was that several of you are reading different translations and what fun we will have comparing them as we move through the lines.

I agree, Maryal. We'll have much more fun that we did in the past...can it simply be because we are no longer "youngsters"?

Nellie, I have just had a fantastic thought about Lord of the Rings and Beowulf...will save for later, but will simply say after seeing the movie this past Friday, talking to my husband about it (he had never read the book), reading Tolkein's essay in the paperback Beowulf, I have reached the conclusion, that Tolkein based Lord of the Rings on Beowulf !!! Will talk to you later about it.

Need the morning coffee.

I began to read the Introduction by Seamus Heaney. Something near to over-boiling in the kitchen called me away, and the book fell closed, except for the front cover. I have the hardback edition.

When I returned, my eyes fell upon the following sentence from the blurb on the inside jacket cover:

"The poem is about encountering the monstrous, defeating it, and then having to live on in the exhausted aftermath."

Wow, I said to myself, you just can't get much more contemporary than that. A poem for our very own times indeed.

Oddly enough, the Seamus Heaney translation is not listed at my library! Can't imagine why. I'll get my hands on it somehow. And it's okay to call on me once in a while, Joan!! Looking forward to it even!

Maryal, the only book I even remember reading in high school is The Great Gatsby. Can the rest of high school English have been so traumatic that I blocked out everything else I read?

Carolyn I put Frisian into a google search and came up with many pages of information on the geographical divisions of the part of Scandinavia that this story takes place in. Joan, I am reading Beowulf as translatd by Dr. David Breeden.

http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/index.html

This is a beautiful site and I spend a lot of time there. I am also going to the book store but havent made a decision yet what I will buy. Faith

Sarah---Perhaps, as the normal teenager you no doubt were, you were more interested in you classmates than in the subject matter?

By the way, it's my guess (informal ongoing survey of my students) that Gatsby may be the ONLY book that most of them have read, so it must still be a favorite of HS teachers.

Back when I was in HS, we had to read things like Hardy's The Return of the Native and Dickens' Tale of Two Cities and a host of others.

Joan: I became interested in Beowulf (aware) during Nellie's book discussion, Lord of The Rings. I purchased two books by Humphrey Carpenter (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien and A Biography) and he talks about Beowulf. Because I like and enjoy Tolkien's writing I want to read all I can about this man or at least read what he read! Hear again, I never heard about Beowulf until I read about Tolkien. I'll still be "in the shadow" reading all your post and to learn from you all.

Beowulf has been one of my favorites over the years, but it has been years since I read it the last time.

I have been reading the version that Faithr noted in her post. It is very accessible and easy to follow.

I'm really looking forward to this discussion.

Wynona

Welcome, Wynona! Wonderful to have you join us, especially since you are a Beowulf fan. Heaney's new translation makes the poem seem very different to me (from what I remember). You may want to see if you would like to read Heaney's translation.

Brumie--As a Tolkien fan, you will be interested to know that Heaney speaks of him in glowing terms in his introduction, saying that "the one publication that stands out when considering Beowulf as a work of literature. . .is Tolkien's epoch-making paper entitled "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" (1936).

I have never read Beowulf. I will buy Heaney's version and read the modern English. I once learned a little Middle French for a related master's thesis and I was never so happy as I was then to finish and put aside the middle French documents. What a chore that was. I glanced at the link showing the old English version of Beowulf and blanched.I am looking forward to this new experience.

Welcome, Justin!--It's good to have you join us. Who knows, perhaps some of that middle French will come back to you. Or maybe you would rather it didn't. Anyway, our company grows--the more the merrier.

Maryal, the sentence that caught your attention is breathtaking, isn't it?

"The poem is about encountering the monstrous, defeating it, and then having to live on in the exhausted aftermath."

No one wins a war. Everyone lives on in the "exhausted aftermath". This will never change. We can't expect it too. Not only that, a war is never really over...

Faith, I intend to put the site you cited up in the new heading...the "adaptation" by Dr. Breedan is concise, easy to read and wonderfully illustrated. Perhaps we will borrow some of the illustrations for our discussion. I'm glad you are planning to purchase more of a translation, rather than this adaptation...as it loses the "melody", the imagery in the presentation. Wynona, perhaps you can get your hands on another translation to read along with Dr. Breedan's adaptation so as not to miss a thing. It will make a nice companion piece though. And there are other great links on that page too...as Faith pointed out.

Brumie, I look forward to any nuggets you pull from Tolkien's letters and bibliography relating to Beowulf. I have a question for those who have purchased the hardcover Heaney translation. Does it include the essays that are found in the paperback? Specifically Tolkien's essay Beowulf, the Monsters and the Critics? ~ This is the essay that led me to conclude that Lord of the Rings is based on Beowulf, based on everything Tolkien admired in Beowulf

I'm very interested in anything anyone can find about "ring-giving", mentioned frequently in Beowulf AND OF COURSE, Lord of the Rings.

WYNONA, JUSTIN, you are both very welcome. hahaha, Justin, you "blanched" at the Old English...so did I. It's a far cry from Middle English, isn't it?

We are going to have a great time, pooling our impressions, knowledge, research. Best of all will be getting to know one another and looking at sentences, images and phrases in a way that might not have occurred in solitary reading. You are both very welcome to this adventure.

Am I getting so old that I can not remember if I did read Beowolf at all? The soft-covered Heaney edition just arrived a few moments ago and I'm amazed to find the Old English on the opposing pages. Should prove a challenge. I shall probably drive myself crazy looking for similarities in verbiage. Meanwhile I'll spend the weekend reading the intros and trying to get into a Danish mode.

I have read Beowulf in a very wonderful translation that my kids had in highschool but cant tell you who it was. However it was as you say more of a poem, had the romance language that is needed for the more emotional feelings. I find Dr. Breedens translation wonderful for the "story" and will love comparing it with the other traslations. fpr

I've asked the library for an interlibrary loan of the Hearney edition. My local library did not have a copy.

I'll at least get to use it for two weeks.

Wynona

Louise, I'm in the same boat...I don't remember any of it, OR if I ever did read Beowulf. I really envy Nellie and others their memories ~ reading it out loud in old English! You know, I "blanched" as Justin did when looking for something familiar in the Old English. I always count language, linguistics as my strength. I can read Old French...well, Middle French...and Middle English. Can read a little German too. But looking at the Old English made me...tired. Now I guess that is a sign of getting old, isn't it!

I am getting very excited about reading this with you all though...like a kid anticipating going to a birthday party, or Disney World. So that says the sap is still running, doesn't it?

Wynona, don't forget that there are other on-line versions of the poem too? There is a link in the heading (see #4) that will take you to a more complete translation, though I can't find an electronic Heaney translation on-line yet. Probably too new...

"She is too fond of books, and it has turned her brain." -- Louisa May Alcott

Ah, Faith, m'dear---We know that hasn't happened to YOU!

I have finished Heaney's intro. to Beowulf, and now wish to join the reanks, if only as a lurker. I have managed to escape reading it all these years, and now I really want to! If I don't chime in too often, it doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention. I hope to learn from you all as I think I already ahave from Seamus H.
I'm disappointed that Tolkien's essay isn't in my hardback. Any chance of finding it online?

Been nursing my computer along till next week when I will just have to bring it to the only Mac guru in town (it sounds like a blender whirling and last night like electric burning ahaahh)- and so I may miss the first bit of this - then have a truck load of y'alls posts to read all in one fell swoop.

Plan on shopping tomorrow - tickled, one of the loan officers I work with the most gave me a Christmas gift of a $100 gift certificate to Borders - does he know me or does he know me.

Faith has her quote (I love it) and in my Den I've a calligraphy that reads

When I get a little money
I buy books;
and
if any is left,
I buy
food and clothes.

I went to the Library this week and found Tolkien Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics. Is this what you all are talking about -Tolkien's essay? If it is I found it in a paperback titled Beowulf Edited by Joseph F. Tuso.

Welcome, Jo! So good to see you, and you are allowed to lurk all you like, but please squeak now and again so we will know you are there.

Barbara!--Good to see you here amongst us. Hope that you will join in on the discussion.

Brumie, Yes, that would be the groundbreaking Tolkien essay that you have found. I hope you will share some of his insights with us when we start reading.

Hope everyone caught the patriotic flavor of the above message.

Hey, Pat!--That is one really coooool mouse. How on earth do you do that? And have you mailed my hall bench yet?

Every little squeak counts towards a roaring good time! So good to see you over there in the corner with Pat, Jo! Welcome both of you. Oh my, and busy Barbara too! This will be wonderful.

Brumie, yes, please do share with us little nuggets from the Monsters/Critics essay once we get going? The essay is found in the paperback Seamus Heaney edition too...though not the hardcover, I take it? The hardcover has larger print and also the Old English. The soft cover has smaller print, but instead of the Old English, it has critical essays.

Jo, I searched all over the net for the Tolkien essay and see that a number of publishers have produced it since it was written in 1936. But I don't see the whole essay available electronically. Will assume the reason is that there are copyrights galore on the essay.

For those who would like to know what the Tolkien essay is all about, this quote might sum it up. Tolkien advises that there is much more to this poem than battle stories with dragons and monsters (the same with his Lord of the Rings, though I think that gets lost in the movie. You have to have read the book to understand this concept, do you agree?) Here's a paragraph from Tolkien's essay on the subject:

"J. R. R. Tolkien, "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics," 1936

We have in Beowulf a story of giant-killing and dragon-slaying. Why should we construct a legend of the gods or a nature-myth to account for these tales? Why must Grendel or his mother represent the tempest, or the malaria, or the drear long winter nights? We know that tales of giant-killers and dragon-slayers have been current among the people of Europe for thousands of years. Is it not far more easy to regard the story of the fight between Beowulf and Grendel merely as a fairy tale, glorified into an epic?"

So good to see you all gathering here!

If you find the Anglo-Saxon a little opaque, there's an additional reason for that unknown to many. There are declensions in A-S; yep, that's right. In the manner of modern German, there are the first four cases (Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative), as in modern German, to which is added the Instrumental case, a sort of rag-tag Ablative of Means. One of my favorite symphonic pieces, many years ago, was Howard Hanson's musical setting of the poem's end in English translation. Seems to me it was called the "something" of Beowulf. It may do only the funeral scene. If anyone knows of a CD that has it, I'd appreciate the tip.

Have my book - the store only had the soft cover - but a nice soft cover with an inside fold and an embossed chain mail. Lovely to feel - that newer opaque finish - I wonder what the printers are calling that.

So many times I promised myself to read this and never got around to it - really looking forward to the company -

Do you know I spent that whole $100 gift certificate tonight - shesh - one CD though, so maybe that takes a bit off - finally got all 21 of Chopin's Nocturnes - was going for Horowitz but desided on Claudio Arrau.

I'm wondering what would be 'music appropriate' while reading Beowulf - we have the plainchant hymns, unadorned of instruments, from about 700 A.D. but that is more in keeping with the influence of the Church - I've read that the Celts had a 5 note scale and we know the Greeks had music, including a drinking song, 'Epitaph of Seikelos' from the first century.

From what I've read most of the "invaders" from northern Europe had instruments that provided a melody string or voice with a drone accompanyment, much like a Dulcimer or even the sound of a more modern instrument, a bag pipe, gives that drone sound. Tunes from this pagan lot I understand where large choruses and dances with some polyphony but still mostly music with a monophonic melody line.

Well the earliest I have is theAve Maris Stella which is the wrong part of Europe for our Beowulf - any of you music majors have any ideas?

Barbara, I do believe that Henry has provided the answer to your question. A symphony for you!

This must be what you are looking for, Henry...
Lament for Beowulf

Lament for Beowulf (1925)

On a trip to England, Hanson came across and was very impressed by the epic poem Beowulf believed to have dated from 700 A.D. He began sketching his Lament in Scotland in "an environment rugged, swept with mist, and wholly appropriate to the scene of my story... My intention has been to realize in the music the austerity and stoicism and the heroic atmosphere of the poem.." Hanson wrote.

Beowulf is the nephew of the King of Geatus (now Sweden) who defeats a ferocious monster but ultimately pays for its destruction with his life. The Lament, scored for choir and orchestra, is about the people's grief over Beowulf''s death. The Seattle Symphony and Chorus vividly and movingly depict the hostile location, the grieving people and the scene where they are gathered around the hero's funeral pyre. The opening is thrillingly evocative with horns and trumpets calling across the soundstage over cavernous bass drum beats, low bass string ostinatos and snare drums. A magnificent work.

It is part of Symphony 4 and can be ordered for a very reasonable price from Barnes & Noble...have a look! Lament for Beowulf

I hope you will stay with us, Henry! Welcome! Which translation will you read? Barbara, what is the name of your translator?

I picked up my copy of the Heaney translation of Beowulf yesterday at Borders and am trying very, very hard to not just dive into it and swim far ahead of the discussion. I chose the Norton edition that is edited by Daniel Donoghue. It doesn't have the Olde English but does have the critical essay by Tolkien, plus others, and also has a lot of historical and archaeology information surrounding the time of Beowulf. I am looking forward to traveling back in time with all of you and especially Maryal and Joan---my pilgrim companions from Canterbury.

Phew, friend Phyl has rejoined our merry band. That's the edition I am reading too, Phyl. I like the critical essays, but am trying not to zoom ahead in the actual reading of the poem. Want to get ready first.

How lovely or as Eliza Doolittle would say loverly - and what a great site for Hanson - hadn't heard of his work so this will be a treat - hehe we are not exactly historically appropriate are we with 18th century musical sound as we imagine a hero from 700 to 1000 Denmark. Another trip it looks like to search out Hanson, although I may just order the CD on line. Oh yes, I did get the Heaney translation - I guess I was under the impression that is the translation we were shooting for. There were other translations in the store - I may go back and prop myself up on one of their sofa's and read some of the forwards in the other translations.

Ah yes, Phyl!--So good to see you here again all ready to go at those monsters with us. Gird up your loins and stand ready.

Barbara--I'm reading (or will be reading) Heaney's translation, the most recent, as well as highly praised. And you made me laugh when you mentioned looking at other editions in a bookstore. That is exactly what I do at Borders. Sit in their cafe, sip espresso, and read parts of books. So enjoyable. And no one ever comes and moves people along. At the local Borders the other night, two men were having a game of chess.

Maryal - yes - Borders is a real hang-out here with backgammon the game of choice - many an evening rather than sitting home alone I'll go to Borders and read a whole book. Amazing how much reading I can do without the phone ringing or the TV on.

As long as a book has about 200 pages I can read it in one sitting with 2 coffees and a sandwich or salad according to what is in the case. I seldom buy magazines any longer since I spread out and read them at Borders - I like the home magazines from Britain and France.

Borders has live music on Friday nights and sometimes on Wednesday nights. The B&N also has a coffee shop but you drink or eat in the shoppe not on sofas and cushy chairs spread out all over the store - also the B&N nearest to my home is a big barn of a place - a two story steel exposed beam structure that echoes - reminds me of a WW2 plane hanger - not very inviting, and they never have music live or otherwise. Where as Borders always has music playing. Last night it was the sound track from Lord of the Rings Now the B&N up in Round Rock is inviting but again no music.

Barbara---Yes, indeed. I am lucky to have several Borders in the area, and some of the live music I have caught, usually accidentally, has been really fun. The Borders I usually go to has an upstairs and a downstairs; the music happens downstairs. The cafe is upstairs and it sort of slops over into the bookstore because of various tables being added. There is an old delapidated couch on one wall, but I can't sit there because of my back. It is WAY too low. However, the chairs at the tables are fine and I have the table there to put my stack of collected books on.

I enjoy our Border's in the same way, until last night when a gent in a tux got up and started to do Sinatra numbers. He lacked the talent, and the vocals were a distraction from the browsing. Ordinarily I can enjoy the music as backgroun, but not this time!

Jo, is it "open mike" at Borders? Can anyone get up and perform? It sounds like such a "happening"! What have I been missing? Actually, there is a local bookstore in DC next door to the Shakespeare Theatre that has a "fainting couch" ...and I do like to sit there and browse with my coffee before a performance. (I find I need that cup of coffee before evening performances nowadays!) What's the real name for such a couch?

We are off to the beach for the week. Will be reading Beowulf of course. Maryal is laughing at my "beach book" ...but honestly, I find it fascinating! I also have something else tucked away as an alternative...not to forget Quote Crostic puzzles.

Looking to next week. This is quite a group gathering here. Will think of you on the beach when the moon is full.

No,no! Not open mike! They actually contract for these PROS to come in on Friday nights, and it's not a bad idea, usually, except it does get crowded. This particular performer was just in the wrong place for his type of act, I think.
Fainting couch: doesn't that go back to the 19th century southern belle wasp-waist look? My understanding is that they did frequently faint from lack of oxygen, as they really couldn't breathe deeply in those tight-laced rigs! Hence, "fainting couch"! An actual item!

Hehe the south huh... Fainting Room in Franklin Hotel, on Main Street in Deadwood, in the Black Hills of South Dakota.

Fainting couch:A couch with a bustle at one end used for resting primarily for those prone to fainting

In Defense of Fainting "Even the youths shall faint," says the Book of Isaiah, ". . . and the young men shall utterly fall." But like those who "wait upon the Lord," we fainters pause, our world and lives renewed. Then we "mount up with wings as eagles."

Maybe they wore those corsets there, too, Barara! I always associate the style with Vivien Leigh in Gone with the Wind.

Opening Day is close at hand. Beowulf beware we are coming for you. I guess it's ok in Borders but for me it's a little stuffy. I prefer a used book flop house where the variety is greater, the prices are lower, the coffee is just as good, and the books no longer smell of new unread pages.

Damn! I had forgotten to subscribe to this discussion and just remembered we're supposed to begin soon. My book must be in transit. I will have to double check on that today. I thought it was weeks ago that I had ordered it. I'll have to check out the online version if it isn't here by tomorrow.

Well Alf, you found us just in the nick of time, as we will be starting out tomorrow with a plunge into the background of the poem, gleaned from introductions to the various translations. You will have another week to track your text.

Justin, you'd fit in just fine at Shakespeare and Company, a combination book store and flophouse located just across from Notre Dame in Paris. George Whitman, the long-time proprietor of the shop, offered me a key to the third floor apartment...told me I could stay there free, as a booklover! Husband wasn't thrilled with the idea however. It's worth a visit if ever in the neighborhood.

Am working on tomorrow's discussion right now. This is going to be an interesting, rewarding discussion on so many different levels.

Till tomorrow,
Joan

The thing I remember about Beowulf is the alliteration. As a child I thought it was the rhyming that made poetry sound good. Reading Beowulf was the first time I discovered that alliteration was part of poetry. This delighted me because I had always had a weakness for alliteration. My friends tell me this is a sign of vulgarity on my part--that alliteration is a cheap trick to catch the ear; and if I had any real appreciation for literature, I would not be so attracted to alliteration. But it's a weakness I have never been able to rid myself of.

Shasta, me too on the alliteration! If it's a "cheap trick," it certainly results in verbal music, anyway!
I've read Heany's intro and Tolkien's essaay, and have read a chunk from two translations. One is Heaney, and the other is in the Norton Critical edition where I fond the Tolkien. I find virtues in both.

Oh, Shasta, it is good to have you join us! And don't let anyone spoil your alliterative delight! I'm going to be very curious to see how closely Heaney follows the alliterations in his translations ~ have decided that I'm going to keep another translation to read along with his. I absolutely love his daring approach, but he does take liberties, I gather from the introduction.

At any rate, you are truly welcome, Shasta. No apologies needed for your interest in alliteration! You are now in charge of pointing out the alliterative delights as you come across them!

I think we are going to have a lot of fun with this, Jo (my meade-bench buddie)!

Joan, we shall have to arrange for the meade to accompany the wisdom!

It is with great sadness that I must share the news that fellow discussion leader and friend to so many of us, has lost her dear sister to a long illness. Our thoughts, prayer and sympathy are with you at this time, Maryal.

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. I know what a hole this must leave in your life and my heart goes out to you.

I've started Heaney's Beowulf (there are two, each with different info added to the text and both in paperback) and already I have a new slant on this epic poem. When I read it last, it was as a challenge with the old English, the traditional way in which universities taught it. Heaney reminds us that the poem only seems strange and unreadable to us because of our unfamiliarity with the times and place and Germanic mythology. He points out that the Iliad would seem as strange if we weren't so familiar with the background of ancient Greece, and notes that that was written centuries after Beowulf. The Cyclops and Circe are as easily identified as the names of our friends, but we have difficulty with the names in Beowulf. (Or are we just lazy, as some of us were about the Russian names in Dostoesky?) Heaney's clarity is a pleasure.

Incidentally, John Gardner wrote a wonderful little book about Beowulf from the monster's point of view.

I believe the surviving manuscript that is at the Britsh Library is a "translation" of a previous "verse narrative". Written in Old English, which spans a period of 600-1100 AD, the "translation" was apparently written sometime in the 10th Century but how many years, or centuries, before that the Beowulf "legend" began is impossible to know. Beowulf was a Scandanavian warrior in the 6th Century, according to Dr. David Breeden, so the original story would have developed long before the 10th Century and sometime during the 6th Century, perhaps. Sense it was a verse narrative it would have been passed down from story teller to story teller so the first "written" manuscript apparently appeared around 1000.

(Maryal, I am deeply sorry for the loss of your sister.)

Heaney avoids the issue and so will I. The range Heaney gives is 600 to 1000 CE. William of Malmsbury and Mathew Paris also fall in the range. So does Chanson de Roland. Lindesfarne and perhaps the Kells are also in the period. There may be some connections that can be made.

The Danes, for example, raiding Saxon England from the Baltic, picked up much of the Saxon language and Christianity as well.So Beowulf must have been composed somewhere near the end of the Danish raids but before the Normans. That puts the composition date around 800CE. Why? Well, because the Normans are not mentioned in the poem and Christianity is included. The early Danish raids were conducted against the Saxons because they were Christian. It was not till the end of the period that the Danes acquired Christianity.

Justin, I find the 800 C.E. date interesting...even distracting! I remember reading somewhere that the Time Magazine Almanac is now referring to 2002 ad as 2002 C.E. (common era) and then dates before Christ, are no longer bc, but B.C.E....(before common era), but no information as to when this change took place. Is it fairly recent? I am really uninformed about this. How widespread is this usage?

I would be very interested in the connection between the Lindisfarne Kells ...why do you conclude the Beowulf epic was orally composed near the end of the Danish raids, towards the end of 800 C.E.? Because of the Christian elements found in the written version?

Phyll, don't you find it amazing that there still exists a written copy of the Beowulf Manuscript in the British Library? I think the Lindisfarne manuscript is also there. I'm lucky my husband loves to travel and we will return in March and I'll take a close look at both of them. If the oral composition of the poem did begin in 600 AD (600 C.E.), then it was really not a Christian epic at all, but about pagan people by pagan composers...Does Dr. Breedan say that Beowulf was actually a pagan warrior? Is this an historical fact? To what extent is the epic Beowulf historical, I'm wondering?

Claudia, you are another in our midst who read this poem in Old English years ago. I find this fascinating. Was it a requirement...on the college level? For English majors...or for everyone? I'm interested in your reaction to Heaney's translation, but you know, I think even if you were to attempt the exact same Old English text you read years ago, you'd "see" the epic through different lens...bringing a lifetime of experience to the reading this time.

Speaking of the strange unfamiliar names in Beowulf, I have a question for you all. In the Norton paperback edition of the Heaney translation, I was sent to page 248 for the pronunciation of the names. But all I find there are the names broken into syllables...there are a few hints ~ the emphasis is on the first syllable, the "H" at the start of a name is not pronounced...

So how to pronounce names like Heorogar? Lady C reminds us that we did not give up on the Russian names in Brothers Karamazov. Shall we give up on these strange sounding Anglo-Saxon names...or CONQUER? I say CONQUER!!! We just may find ourselves discussing this in "live" conversation...and we don't want to sound uninformed, do we? We need some pronunciation tips from those among us who do know...Nellie? Carolyn? Who else? And maybe we can find a pronunciation guide on the Internet too?

Let's DO this right!

Lady C, you mention the J. Gardner book...do you have it? That would be great when we reach the monster ...from his point of view!

Yes, I date the composition to 800 CE to account for Christianity. The Danes were raiding Christian Saxon lands in Briton from 650CE to 850CE. The Normans were active beginning in 900CE puting a ceiling on the date. The Danes were pagan until the end of their raiding time. Christian motifs appear in Beowulf, therefore I choose 800CE as a reasonable date. The 400 year gap that Heaney uses is too wide for comparisons with other dated things we know about.

The Kells are at Trinity College in Dublin.

Common era designation has been actively used in archeology for many years. It avoids the religious connotation and puts dating in a neutral reference, which is more appropriate for a scientific activity. It serves equally well for history, sociology, and should serve for literature in general as well.

Joan,

Just got your email (Thank you for notification.) and checked in here to reply. Someplace I have a pronunciation list for names in this myth. Will look for it & send you what I can find. Think you're correct about initial "H" being silent - if it comes before a consonant. For some reason, I seem to recall that the "H" IS pronounced - if it comes before a vowel - Sooooooo - Heorogar would be pronounced as - HAY-UH-ROW-GAR because Grendel's favorite "stompin' ground," the mead hall, is Heorot & it's pronounced HAY-OH-WROTE! Does this help or make sense?

Here I am again: another opportunity to read the Beowulf poem for myself and develop my own argument for its date of composition.

My placing it much closer to 1100 CE than to 650 CE owes to the fact that both my major professors at Wisconsin thought so. Robert L. Reynolds published a couple of articles hinting in this direction; later, David Herlihy so dated it in a book of readings.

Confessedly, I have no other basis for saying so, except that I greatly respected both men and their work. And, just as happened before, I'm tied up with something else.

" The earliest surviving manuscript is in the British Library; it is written in the West Saxon dialect and is believed to date from the late 10th century. On the basis of this text, Beowulf is generally considered to be the work of an anonymous 8th-century Anglian poet who fused Scandinavian history and pagan mythology with Christian elements."

"Beowulf," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) Encyclopedia 2000. (c) 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Sutton Hoo Excavations. in 1930's a burial Ship was found and excavated. Burial was in the manner of the 7th century burials. It held huge treasureof the type refered to in the last of the poem Beowulf. No body appears in the burial site. The question addressed in a reference book was Is this siet the burial of an early English King named Raedwald (seventh century)

The Question- was Beowulf originally composed as a tribute to this late great king? Kendall Calvin wrote Voyage to the other World:Legacy of Sutton Hoo, burial site in the British Isles to explore this question . As a resource it comes up in many sites about the historical basis of Beowulf.

I have now read the first verse in three translations and looked at the Old English. There are at least 1500 sites refering to Beowulf (including the Computer of that name.) If I had the money I would buy the c.d.'s that are called the Electronic Beowulf for a complete study of Beowulf...at this site.. http://www.uky.edu/~kiernan/eBeowulf/guide.htm Faith

While awaiting the arrival of my book I opened up my electronically enhanced text by Wm. Ellery Leonard. He wants his readers to "get the music and the beats of this verse, by chanting or half chanting it aloud."

My sincerest sympathies go out to you; please know that you, your sister, and your family are in my thoughts.

Fran

The Danish raids on Briton began in 789CE and ended in 872CE when the Danes began coming for the summer with the wife and kiddies. It was at this time that they fell under the spell of christianity. Some stayed among the Saxons to farm and others returned to Scandinavia.Beowulf could not have been composed before this time due to the prior pagan character of the Danes. It is not likely to have been composed much after 1000CE due to the depredations of the Normans. Previously, I had selected 800CE, but I now think this date is too early. 900CE is probably a more defensive date for the Beowulf composition.

FOR MARYAL,

Maryal, I am so sorry to hear about your sister. My thoughts are with you. Loss is never easy, but the thoughts of friends might help a bit.

Love,

HATS

I find the task of dating the composition of this poem difficult, because we are really talking about two different periods, aren't we? We all recognize that the poem was passed down through the years by word of mouth. Within the poem, we learn from the very beginning that it is a tale about events that happened "in days gone by". How many "days" gone by? How many "years" ~ how many hundreds of years from the early recitations to the time the existing manuscript was transcribed?

And why is this important?

Heaney estimates the oral tradition began approximately 600 CE and the manuscript 1000CE. Now if that is the case, the early poems would have been quite a bit different from the written manuscript. They would NOT have contained ANY of the Christian references found in the manuscript. The scribe (most likely in a monastery) would have included such references in his version ~ if they weren't there before it was his turn.

Looking at it from this point of view, I find it somewhat problematic ~ I find myself smiling as I read the Christian "inserts"...superimposed on the original pagan poem. That's the reason I am so curious now that I'm hearing that perhaps the Christian elements were there from the beginning.

Henry's respected professors dated the written manuscript closer to 1100 CE (gosh, Henry how do you remember that!? Names and dates too!) This puts our Beowulf scribe into the monastery, possibly adding the Christian elements to an originally pagan poem...

Andy's encyclopedia attributes the work to an 8th c writer "who fused Scandinavian history and pagan mythology with Christian elements" But the surviving manuscript is said to be dated the 10th century - somewhat earlier.

On the other hand, Justin holds that the Danes who were "raiding" Christianized towns in Saxon England ~ between 789-872CE (hahaha, those summer people do tend to "raid" when they descend on a community, don't they?) ~ began the poem with the Christian elements in place from the very beginning, around 900 CE. Do I understand this correctly, Justin?

Do you all find this difference ~ when the Christian elements were added to the poem ~ as fascinating as I do?

Back in a bit...

then it would surely have been anywhere between 600 AD and 1000 AD but if we are dating the written document or manuscript, then it seems to me many of the experts put it at circa 1000.

As to whether it was "Christian", as opposed to pagan, from the beginning---I believe that in its origins it was pagan. Christian elements were added as the story was told and retold. You know how an original remark or joke (or gossip, though of course, none of us here indulge in that, do we?) becomes nearly unrecognizable when it is "passed on" through several parties? I think the verse narrative that told the people of a part of their early history was altered with each telling by each teller (minstrel) and as Christianity gained a greater foothold Christian elements began to creep into the poem. If the person who finally scribed the tale was a member of a monastery then I think he would have been sure to put a Christian "slant" on the old story. To simplify: I think the poem changed to mirror the beliefs of each time until finally it was "set in stone" or probably, parchment.

What do you think about the place it was written? The first recorded raid outside of Scandinavia was on Lindesfarne in 795, according to Tamsin Hekala, ORB Online Encyclopedia. Do you think it might have been a monk/scribe who resided at Lindesfarne Abbey who finally put the old legend to parchment?

Phyll, that's an interesting question...WHERE was the existing manuscript written? I have read something about that...at least about where it was found. Will look that up and come back with whatever I can find...and will put your question in the heading too.

If you are correct, and the epic was reworked to insert Christian references, then I have to admit that I smile at the images of Beowulf's pagans...who worship many gods ~getting off their horses and offering praise and sacrifice in thanks to the one Almighty God in Heaven. I'm sorry, but I do.

Faith, a marvelous site! You can spend so much time there! Will put it into the heading along with this one that Maryal sent along from a colleague, who is an Old English and Middle English scholar. Plenty to read up on if one only finds the time! Anthropological and Cultural Approaches to Beowulf

The Sutton Hoo excavation of the burial ship, possibly prepared for the English King Raedwald in the 7th c....must find out more. I love the question being asked...Was Beowulf orignally composed as a tribute to this great king? Now THAT would be an historical reference, wouldn't it?

Meg, you bet that helps! If the "H" comes before a vowel, we shall pronounce it. The great hall, Heorot then is pronounced, with emphasis on the first syllable ~ HAY-oh-wrote. Everything helps when starting from scratch. I'll practice that out loud this afternoon.

...ALF, I chanted aloud to the sea down in Florida...to "get the beat"...until Bruce returned with our beverages and then I shut up. He was looking at me as if I had lost it.

ps. It works! Did you try it?

Hello, Everyone! Thanks so much for all your condolences and thoughts. I'm still taking it all in and don't have much to say about Beowulf right at the moment, but promise that I will have. Have been reading the posts and find the discussion of when Beowulf was written and the Christian influences most interesting.

Heaney notes in his Introduction that "It has often been observed that all the scriptural references in Beowulf are to the Old Testament." I think this is important because although the "Christian" influence is present in the poem, and we can assume that someone who had contact with its creation was a Christian, there is not much Christian "flavor" to the poem.

If you go to the link from my colleague John Hill's site listed above in Joan's post (and in the heading), scroll to the bottom of the front page, under "Archeology Digest" and then "Scandinavia," you will see that a Christian grave dating to the 7th century has been found in Norway. This indicates that there were Christians in Norway back a good deal further than had been thought. Check it out.

Maryal

Maryal, I am sorry for your loss. I pray that you and your family are comforted with happy memories.

I am here. Just doing some thinking at the moment about all your fascinating posts. I shall be back with some thoughts of my own.

Yes, I think you have it, however, I may be able to state the proposition a little clearer. My raiding dates are from Churchill's the Birth of Britain. The raids began 789 and ended 872. If the poem was composed prior to 789, the Danes were pagan, and would not have mentioned christian elements. If on the other hand, it was composed after 789, Christianity could well be a part of it.

Since the poem was written in West Saxon with christian elements included it is most likely it was written 900 or later in the peaceful period but before the Norman depredations began in 1000.

Now let us examine the composition question. Since the poem existed for some years in an oral tradition there are two posibilities. If the composition was prior to 789 it was composed without Christianity and christianty was added when the work was written. The other alternative is that the work was composed after the raids began and was carried for a century in oral form and then in 900 or so it was redacted.

Personally, I like the first alternative.I think the oral tradition had been in existance for more than a century and that the Christian elements were added at the time of redaction. Perhaps as we read the poem we will be able to judge from context and other clues whether the Christian elements were added or not.

Phyl's description of the way in which the poem might have acquired Christian elements makes a lot of sense. It's possible some monk added the elements but it is more likely that the elements were incorporated slowly as the Danes were exposed more and more to Christianity during the raiding period. So that when the monks redacted the oral tradition Christianity was already there. Maryal's discovery of a 7th century Christian grave in Norway does make it possible that Christianity was there from the very beginning. Oh Well. It's fun to speculate.

Hello, Maryal. It is wonderful to have you in our midst. Hugs.

The information in John Hall's site is an eye-opener, isn't it? Especially this article...Oldest Christian find in Norway .

Interesting that conclusions were made that the grave was Christian because "the coffin was aligned east-to west and was deeper than heathen plots."

Also an interesting observation...the "Christian" elements in the poem are Old Testament. Why is that, I'm wondering...if our poet(s) is Christian, is a monk, even, why does he avoid the New?

Sooo, Justin, if we do have Christians further north...in Norway - in the 600's, it becomes a real possibility that from the very first time the poem was composed, it did have the dual pagan/Christian elements. Yes, I agree, it's fun to speculate. I am going to note every single time there is such a reference and try to understand how it "fits" into the poem.

I think that Phyll's question as to where the only known manuscript was found is worth attention. It should shed light on this particular poet. It is in Tolkien's Beowulf:The Monsters and the Critics treatment of the manuscript writer that makes me aware that not only was the manuscript writer an imaginative, creative poet...but so where those who proceded him, each taking liberties, building on the fabulous elements of the one before.
And so is Seamus Heaney!

I can't wait to hear what you are thinking, Nellie! You are always so original...and creative yourself!

Let's talk about the manuscript poet and the manuscript itself?

Oh, definitely Heaney, Joan! He is quite up-front that he has taken words that he knew from his childhood and family members in northern Ireland and substituted them in his translation. And Dr. Breeden says about his translation: "The following is not a line-by-line translation of the original poem. Rather, I have attempted to recreate the poem as a contemporary poet would write it, a practice assumed in the oral tradition." and "This is not an exact translation of the poem but rather a new version, close to the original but a poem in it own right."

I don't think we will be able to determine where the manuscript was found. Sir Robert Cotton sometime in his lifetime (1571-1631), acquired it for his library. His extensive library of Anglo-Saxon documents, as well as the Beowulf manuscript and many other ancient documents, became the basis for the present British Library. It was in the Cotton library that the fire occurred (1731) that damaged the manuscript. But I find it intriguing to speculate on where the manuscript was from the time it was written to more than 500 years later when Cotton acquired it. Perhaps buried and forgotten in some monastery library somewhere. Yes, it is fun to speculate.

Joan---An interesting question. I believe that Heaney suggests that the dark tone of the poem coincides better with the Old Testament. If he does (don't have the book with me) then I agree with him. In such a dark poem, elements of redemption, sweetness and light would not be appropriate.

As to the inclusion of references to the belief of either the person to write the poem down, or the oral tradition that preceded it, I don't think we will ever know.

I think of the layering of cultures. The warrior-culture of the legendary Beowulf is at some time replaced by a Christian outlook, but the older culture is still there. Analogy--In the Old Testament, the Israelites, after conquering the cities in the Promised Land, constantly are guilty of worshipping other gods, those who were already well-established in Canaan--Baal is one, Ashera another.

I think the tension that exists in Beowulf is the tension between monotheism and polytheism.

As for B.C.E. and C.E being used to replace B.C. (before Christ) and A.D. (anno domini), such has been the practice in Biblical scholarship for a while. Historians also routinely use BCE and CE. Actually, BCE is the more commonly used because dates that are not labeled are assumed to be CE.

I'm not sure any of this is clear. Just rambling

http://www.angelcynn.org.uk/ Go to this site. Link on poetry. Then Link on Beowulf. Then you will find a directions of how to hear the sound of a true voice reading a passage of Old English. I have to figure out how to follow the directions to get the sound download to work but it looks easy. This whole site is wonderful and I know I can good stuff here. Faith

Yes Joan, I tried the "beats." Bill asked me if I was crying. Funny guy this man I married.

Yes, it's fun to speculate, but I'm reluctant as yet to attach much importance to the archaeological find at Liknes church. In the first place, the find is a loner - so far no related sites have been reported. And the county curator's conclusion that it could be a Christian burial was apparently based only on the unusual east-west alignment of the coffin and the absence of pagan artifacts. Even the century is uncertain. Although splinters from the coffin are carbon-dated to the 7th century, the human remains were not tested. So the burial could have been at a later date, using old wood for the coffin. I'm trying to track down information on what's been done since the news item first appeared. Will come back to this later.

By the way, one of the companion books I'm using is a beautifully illustrated 1999 retelling of the saga by Tor ?ge Bringsv3⁄4rd. (He's Norway's foremost science fiction writer, NELLIE). Although it's intended for young readers, there are some very useful and scholarly footnotes at the back.

Carolyn

I'm curious about that picture in the heading. Did they wear chain mail right over their faces like that? Or are we looking at the back of Beowulf's head?

Why Shasta! What an interesting question! When I first read it, I must confess, I laughed! Because I assumed, just assumed that we were looking at the back of Beowulf's head. But I did a bit of reading and see some photos of what is called the "York helmet" from those early days and can see mail hanging over the face from the nose down to the neck. I also read of "cheek protectors". But every photo that I see, there are cut-outs for eyes. I suppose that the warrior could see through the chain links of the mail if that is indeed the front on the photo above. And he would stand less chance of getting his eye poked out with the mail as protection. I did read of the jingling, "chinking" sound that mail makes when the warrior moves. Will keep that sound in mind when envisioning the battles.

I love such questions, Shasta! They shake up assumptions! Does anyone here have any information on mail? Will try to find some time to check the web for photos and information. What fun!

I've been thinking about that lone "Christian" burial site too, Carolyn. In the same link where the description of the burial site is found, (maybe the page before), I read that the old site was found buried beneath another coffin which dated from 1000CE. Now that one could very well have been a Christian burial. I thought of this possible scenario. In 1000, at the time of that burial, a grave was dug and the earlier coffin was discovered (not very deep)...so the gravediggers removed the earlier coffin, dug deeper, replaced the first coffin (which carbon-dates from the 600s) in the east-west direction as was their Christian custom, and then put in the later coffin. That could explain the depth and direction of the early coffin.

Yes, all this is speculation of course. I'd love to hear whatever you find about follow-up information on that discovery. It must have brought a storm of a reaction, I would think. Hopefully, after our discussion this week, we can reach our own conclusions, even if it is simply to say that we don't have any answers. It's interesting to consider the possibilities, though, isn't it?

Carolyn, I'd love to get my hands on that illustrated copy by Tor ?ge Bringsv3⁄4rd! Do you think it's available in this country?

It is great having you here. Can you tell me how close the Old English resembles today's Norwegian language? Is it easier for Norwegians to read the Old English than it is for us? I'll bet it's easier for them to pronounce!

Yesterday, I came across another pronunciation tip...this time I read that you ALWAYS pronounce that initial H in front of a name, even if it is followed by a consonant. So, Hrethric is pronounced HRETH-rich. Is someone keeping track of all this? hahaha...we NEED a pronunciation guide!

Andy,...I'm still laughing at your husband thinking you were crying as you read out loud! Did you sound as if you were reading a dirge? hahahaha.....

Fai, I tried to listen to hear how those opening verses should sound in old English, but don't have the necessary file to open it. When I tried to load it, I gave up. Short attention span. Let me know when you successfully load it? Please? Need all the help I can get!

Maryal, yes! The "Christian" elements are Judeo-Christian, aren't they? "Monotheistic" beliefs better describe what we are finding here. So, you think our Christian poet chose the Old Testament references because they better suited the dark period we encounter in Beowulf? Will keep that in mind. I think that is in line with something I read recently.

Last night, I drowsed off while reading an essay found in the Norton Heaney translation...by Thomas D. Hill, which gives another slant as to the reason why the references are all OT. It is sort of long...I'll try to summarize. It made a whole lot of sense last night. I promise not to take too much space with it, just hit the highlights.

Hill starts by saying that "whether we accept the early or late dating, it is clear that a reflective Anglo-Saxon must have been aware that the roots of his nation and culture were pagan and Germanic and that Christianity was a relatively recent innovation among a people to whom antiquity was precious and innovation suspect."
His position is that Beowulf resembles neither an "emphatically and militantly Christian or an unapologetically pagan and secular" point of view. For this reason, he looks upon Beowulf as a work in transition - which mirrored the time in which it was composed. This is why we find the accomplishments and pride in pagan lineage in the same work, where the people were coming to accept a new humanistic sort of religion...there's one God, creation and natural moral law, and when they died their souls went to heaven."

Thomas Hill calls these pagan converts, "Noahchites" in their beliefs because they seem to share the same beliefs of the Old Testament Noah without the knowledge of God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses.

And it appears that the Beowulf manuscript poet was happy to tell his tale from this point of view. I like it. It makes sense to me...as we see a form of paganism, tempered by belief in a God and eternity, without concern about following the 10 commandments... Does this make sense to you? I am in awe of the sort of documented transition that we are able to experience!

Joan if you have windows 95 and above with windows media player that plays wav files you can go to this new url i am enclosing in this post then click on wav file above the selection you want and it sends up the media player and he reads and it is beautiful. There are no instructions like that true voice but for other people they can configure from that other site that I gave the true voice for netscape and mac and older versions like windows 3. Try this site though http://www.engl.virginia.edu/OE/Beowulf.Readings/Beowulf.Readings.html

http://www.engl.virginia.edu/OE/Beowulf.Readings/Beowulf.Readings.html

To all of you who want to hear this it is a trip I will have to admit. I love it. You can hear the rhyming and of course he has a chant rythem that is fascinating. I cant do it in the modern translation at all the same. I can read the poem in old english and listen to the old english by clicking on the wave file above what part am going to listen to then after the media player starts I minimize it so I can see my screen and the verses. It is so funny because after few words I totally can not put the sound to the right word. He keeps saying word s that sound English like Richard but it looks like it is spelled rinci or something so I get too mixed up.

You really can feel the chanting rhythm of the spoken Old English, Faith. Even if I don't understand what he is saying I can feel it.

AHA! I found some further information about where the manuscript was for hundreds of years. Apparently, Sir Robert Bruce Cotton acquired the manuscript from a 16th Cent. antiquary named Lawrence Nowell who signed and dated certain related documents in 1563. (All this according to co-authors Bruce Mitchell and Fred C.Robinson.) And they go on to say that "before the manuscript came into Nowell's possession it had probably lain in a monastic library since monastic libraries are where most of the manuscripts from Anglo-Saxon England reposed between 1066 and the Reformation." It is so satisfying to have someone else's guess agree with my guess. Do two guesses make a truth? Hmmmm.....

Also, they believe that the existing manuscript is a "copy of a copy" and was copied by two scribes who demonstrated different writing habits.

I would still like to know in what monastic library the manuscript lay unnoticed for over 500 years!

I can hear it now, Faith! Will add your new link to the resources in the heading. Like Phyll, I don't understand what he's saying, but can understand he is telling a powerful tale...and can feel the rhythm. I understand that the old "scops" (poets) used to "sing" the verses. Do you suppose that means they "chanted" as opposed to singing to a melody? Which modern translation are you reading, Faith? I find when I ready the Seamus Heaney, I can feel the beat too...though Meg says that it doesn't do anything for her. Which are you reading, Andy? Did your order arrive?

Whew! Whew! Phyll! Your question as to the location of the monastic library in which the Beowulf manuscript lay hidden for hundreds of years...led me on a quest that lasted much of the morning! I'm going to add here the fact that my computer is located temporarily in the basement and it is freezing down here. I do have a space heater, but it takes so much juice that I'm afraid it will blow out my computer if I turn it on!

Phyll,m'love, I'm afraid there is no answer to date for you, but will share what I did find.

Dr. Laurence Nowell, the man who rescued the Beowulf manuscript for "a monastery" was from Lichfield, a native of Lancashire. I thought perhaps I could find a monastery near him which might satisfy you! hahaha...but the man was a writer, and he moved around, compiling maps. In other words, it could have been anywhere.

I found this really lengthy essay by a Mr. M. R. James...who seems to know the contents of every monastery library ever! Before you click the link, realize that the search was fruitless...and it is so long to read ~ this is what accounts for my frozen state right now. I really thought I was hot on the trail when he began naming monastery libraries...

ENGLISH LIBRARIES

And now to turn to some individual libraries. Some of the most venerable have practically disappearedÑthat of Glastonbury, for instance, the premier abbey of England, the only one which lived through from British to Saxon times.3 To it we might reasonably look to trace many an ancient book belonging to the days of the old British Church. Leland, who visited the library not long before the Dissolution, represents himself as overawed by its antiquity. But almost the only record he quotes is one by "Melkinus," which most modern writers think was a late forgery. However, there is in the Bodleian one British book from Glastonbury, written, at least in part, in Cornwall, and preserving remnants of the learning of the British clergy. It has portions of Ovid and of Latin grammar, and passages of the Bible in Greek and Latin. The catalogue, too, shows that there were in fact a good number of old MSS., and also that the monks of the fourteenth century did not care much about them, for they are marked as ÒOld and useless,Ó Ò Old and in bad, conditionÓ (debilis), and so on. The actual extant books which we can trace to this foundation are few and for the most part late. |p63

I smile at the monks' designation "old and useless" ...

But when I reached this paragraph, late in the day, I realized the search was over...

"A long list of the Elizabethan book-collectors could be made, but I shall not attempt one here. |p82 Two libraries of the time, Sir Robert CottonÕs and Archbishop ParkerÕs, stand out. The main object of both men was to preserve English antiquities, and it is no exaggeration to say that if these two collections, which together number less than 1,500 volumes, had been wiped out, the best things in our vernacular literature and the pick of our chronicles would be unknown to us now. We should have no Beowulf or Judith, only inferior copies of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and of Matthew Paris, no Layamon, no PearlÑnot to speak of the mass of invaluable State-papers gathered by Cotton, and the Reformation documents and letters stored up by Parker. One touch of blame rests on Sir Robert Cotton. He had a vicious habit of breaking up MSS. and binding together sections from different volumes. This disguises the provenance of the books, and by consequence obscures the history of their contents."

I still feel that the man to follow is Laurence Nowell, because the man wrote so extensively, he must have mentioned something somewhere about where he picked up at least some of his manuscripts...but many people have devoted much of their lives to this search and have come up empty. Of course, they didn't have the power of the Internet at their fingertips, did they?

I think that the bound manuscripts give many clues as to the scribe (s) of the Beowulf manuscript though...

More later...and more on Seamus Heaney's approach to his translation. Would love to hear more of what you are finding...

ps. For those of you who are glazed over at all this background information, be assured that when we start on the opening lines of the poem on Monday, NONE of this will come up. We will be strictly "poetic" ...in the mood and in the moment of the poem...okay?

How long will you be banished to the nether regions? I fear that some morning they will find you frozen in front of your computer with your fingers rigid and glued to the keyboard! What terrible hardships you endure to satisfy my unsatisfiable curiosity. But you found such fascinating stuff! I agree---I think I would like to follow up on Lawrence Nowell and see where the trail leads. Thanks for all your digging.

Well, now---- being polite , I will only say that I am a bit ticked off at my ISP. SO--- I've been doing a bit of research WHILE waiting-- waithing--waiting-- and find our good friend Beowulf has been called everything from a saint to a sinner. (Figure of speech Joan.) I can not wait to tackle this and truly feel as if I'm going to encounter Frodo Baggins on my trip into B's empire.

Joan,

Have been traveling with Mr. Biswas in Trinidad. Search continues for pronunciation list, BUT - happened to pick up my copy of the Heaney translation and checked "his" pronunciation guides. We disagree on pronunciations of "H's" & other sounds. (Ex. Ecktheow (spelling? cause I don't have my text at computer)- I've only know this as ECK-THAY-OH. Heaney indicates that it's pronounced EDGE-THAY-OH. So, don't know if my list would be applicable or helpful. Let me know if you want me to continue search or not.

May pop in & out here, when you reach specifics of story line & your hero's search for name and fame - if that's okay. Am waylaid by Ginny & V.S. Naipaul right now! Hellos to Hats, Andrea, Maryal and Jo Meander!

Meg

TRA LA.....have my compuyter back at last.....rah rah rah.....been out of the loop for over a week - Must listen yet to Beowulf in Old English - but got caught up in the net trying to find out about the lost years - here is what I learned...

The whereabouts of the manuscript during the five hundred years after it was written is unknown. We hear of it in 1563, when the Dean of Litchfield, Lawrence Nowell, owned it at least long enough to write his name and the date on the first page. Very likely Nowell saved the manuscript and Beowulf from destruction when Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries and broke up their libraries. From Nowell, again via unknown ways, the manuscript found its way into the famous library of the Elizabethan physician and antiquary Sir Robert Cotton...After CottonÕs death, his collection was eventually recognized as a national treasure, and came under the protection of the Crown.

This 10th-century manuscript was probably copied by a late medieval monk and stored in monasteries, until their destruction and dissolution by King Henry VIII. Several 17th and 18th-century scholars, including Lawrence Nowell and the Danish Thorkelin, preserved the manuscript...

"One of the strangest things about the English is the fact that they do not have a foundation legend or a founder-hero. "

"Anglo-Saxon dialects formed avernacular,... capable of producing Beowulf...and before long the writing of history. "

"Unlike the English, the British did have a foundation legend and a founder: Brutus, a prince of Troy, whose great deeds were celebrated long before Geoffrey of Monmouth brought the stories together about 1135 in The History of the Kings of Britain"

"What, then, of the English and their origins? No one doubted that they had arrived at the end of Roman rule in Britain and formed the English-speaking bloc of the peoples of Britain...The leading role in this aspect of Anglo-Saxon rediscovery was taken by Lawrence Nowell, of a middlingly prosperous Lancashire family, who failed as a schoolmaster, fled to Germany to stay clear of Queen Mary's agents, but later returned and became Dean of Lichfield. "

"The killing of Beowulf's lord, Hygelac of the Geats, is verifiable to circa 521 A.C. ...the minstrel-bard culture that likely produced the story originates only in the period of A.D. 673-735. Because of the Danish invasion into Anglo-Saxon territory in 790 the sympathetic Danish references in the poem make it probable that the original poem was composed no later than that date. The broad range of dates from A.D. 650 to 850 is supported on linguistic grounds that the poet possibly came from either the court of Aldfrith in Northumbria or King Offa of Mercia...the original surviving manuscript was written by two scribes around A.D. 1000 in West Saxon...The manuscript probably remained in monasteries until Henry VIII closed them. Sir Lawrence Nowell rescued several of these manuscripts in 1563."

Now I cannot find the site - but before my computer went to the "Vet" I found an essay that suggested that Beowulf was written with the raid of Mercia in mind.

I started to research both Norse and Danish history and mythological sites as well as Mercia and Anglo-Saxon sites - oh my - more sites and essays and information, some of which is repetitive. But from all this research I think the idea that Beowulf was written by monks using the model of Mercia has some merit.

This site is the The Danish History, Books I-IX by Saxo Grammaticus ("Saxo the Learned") which tells the myths of the Danish race. It seems Angul, (the fountain) was the beginnings of the Anglian race. He immortalised his fame by having his name applied to the district which he ruled. Seems Bede," no mean figure among the writers of the Church," writes with a "religious duty to glorify in writing the deeds of his land," makes witness to this information.

By the middle of the 9th century Mercia, along with the other kingdoms of England, was starting to suffer from raids by Scandinavian groups. The raids started on the east coast of England but soon spread in land... The final blow to Mercia was struck in 873 when the Danish army wintered at Repton.

Chronology of Events in the History of English 600-800 Rise of three great kingdoms politically unifying large areas: Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex...Christianity introduced among Anglo-Saxons. In 597 a Christian mission sent by Pope Gregory the Great and led by Augustine landed in Kent. Irish missionaries also spread Celtic form of Christianity to mainland Britain.

The conversion of King Aethelberht of Kent ( ?560 - 616 ) and the kings of Essex and East Anglia, then the baptism of Aethelberht's son-in-law King Edwin of Northumbria ( 617 - 33 ) by his bride's Roman chaplain Paulinus established Christianity within the highest eschelons of English society. Later they reverted to paganism.

The Scottish church based on Iona, founded by the Irishman, Columba, in 563. King Oswald of Northumbria ( 634 - 42 ) was converted while in exile among the Scots and invited Iona to send him a mission: the result was Aidan's foundation of Lindisfarne in 635. The Irish bishops of Lindisfarne consolidated Christianity in Northumbria; their fellow countrymen Duima and Ceollach, and their English pupils, Cedd and Trumhere, re-established the religion in Essex and introduced it to Mercia and the Middle Angles, whose king, Penda ( ?610-55 ), was the last great pagan ruler.

This raid, the first registered Viking raid in Europe, is now traditionally used as the date of the beginning of the Viking era. There is indirect information about earlier Viking raids on England and in Scandinavia several of the features characteristic of the social order of the Viking era go back to the earlier 700s so that the beginning of the period may well be dated to the first half of the eighth century.

The three Viking centuries changed Denmark fundamentally. From being an almost unknown heathen area Denmark had by the end of the Viking period developed into a well?defined kingdom belonging to the European Christian societies. The Viking Era ended around the middle of the eleventh century; the year 1042, when King Harthacnud died.

This is a great site with many photos recreating Regia Anglorum; a term used by early English writers to describe the English state.

I thought this was an interesting sidebar Slavery was part of daily life in the English part but absent in the Danish part.

Here are two other sites that I found interesting Who is who in Nordic Mythology

And finally this is a fun site Trolls, Elfs, N?cken, Tomten, Vittran, and Huldran

Obviously, who(M) ever wrote this epic was a learned poet. Was he a scop? He composed so that the poem could be chanted. He clearly mentions pagan and religious themes as he charms us.

Hey there, Brumie.....did you pass or fail the test? If you need some help, just ask here in a post and we'd be glad to help...

Barbara is back from the "Vet"! And you have left such delicious sites! I got in later than I thought this morning...so now it's afternoon and must get dinner going. Bruce and I have changed our lunch/dinner schedule to dinner/lunch since the retirement. But as soon as I "do" dinner, will get back here and look at the sites closely.

Phyll, did you notice in Barb's post...Laurence Nowell located the Beowulf manuscript in 1563. So now all we have to do is figure out where he was in 1563! After lunch, er, after dinner, I intend to read very closely the sites Barbara has provided! Delve! Delve! We'll find out which monastery yet and make really big news in Beowulf research! We'll be famous!

There is interesting history out there on what happened to the manuscript once Laurence Nowell sold it to Robert Cotton. Several things happened that changed the appearance of the manuscript ...and the content!

Back in a minute...need to defrost the chicken.

Meg, please, please do help us find a pronunciation guide! From what I can see, SHeaney gives no more pronunciation help his " EDGE-THAY-OH" for Beowulf's father,Ecktheow . Perhaps that's how it sounds with his Irish brogue...hahaha. I can manage "ECK-THAY-OH" a whole lot easier! So please, don't give up on us! Yes, the Naipaul is a riveting discussion, I agree. We appreciate your visits, any time you find you have!

I spent some time in the local library looking for a pronunciation key yesterday (came up empty), but did find several very interesting books on Beowulf ~ so it was not time wasted.

Last night I read one of the four by Frederick Rebsamen, published in 1991...himself a poet who has translated Beowulf. Mr. Reb comments in the Introduction that he counts 75 personal names...and 32 place names in Beowulf, He adds that only 10 of the 72 characters speak and of those only six are important. I suppose these are the ones we really need to know to pronounce...as a start? They are:

Hrothgar
Wealhtheow
Unferth
Hygelac
Wiglaf
Beowulf

OK, who wants to start? hahaha! We need a pronunciation guide for these strange unfamiliar names!

Andy, the man needs his dinner...but I do want to share with you what Rebsamen has to say about the religious themes...something which fits right into the conclusions we seem to be reaching here, with a few more observations.

And YES, the Beowulf poet was definitely a "scop", I think we'll all agree. And so is Seamus Heaney!

Later!

In my musings, I had this interesting (to me, anyway) thought. I have walked through the ruins of several British abbeys and thought what a terrible thing it was that Henry VIII did to dissolve and destroy such beautiful places but now I wonder if the dissolution of the abbeys and the dispersement of the abbey libraries had never taken place, the Beowulf manuscript might still be lying forgotten and unnoticed in some dusty monastery library---that we might not, in our lifetime, have ever known about it? What is so amazing to me is the part that "chance" has played in the survival of this legend.

As you suggested, Joan, I tried some follow-up on Lawrence Nowell and where he might have been near an abbey that was dissolved and therefore, had access to the monastic library. However, what I found was:

"The Nowells also acquired land at nearby Read in 1364 and at the dissolution of Whalley Abbey Roger Nowell was able to buy almost all of the rest of that manor and build Read Hall. He had three half brothers each famous in their time, Alexander was Dean of St. Paul's, Lawrence was Dean of Lichfield and Robert who was a lawyer at Gray's Inn. Before Roger died in 1567 he made an agreement with his two sons Roger and Thomas so that the former would succeed to the whole estate."

So I went looking for the history of Whalley Abbey in East Lancashire but found this:

"Whalley Abbey (Lancashire) The Abbey Church was completed in 1388 but there was still much building work to be done."

And this abbey was not destroyed in the Dissolutions but preserved by the crown and given as an estate. Apparently it still exists as a property of the Diocese of Manchester and is now used as a conference center.

I would guess that the Beowulf manuscript was not in this nearest abbey to the Nowell family and that I doubt we can ever really know how Lawrence Nowell acquired it or where it was for centuries..

As for Sir Bruce Cotton, who acquired it from Nowell, he apparently had no interest in preserving many of the documents that he acquired in their original state and would bind them with other documents seemingly willy-nilly. Even more amazing that the Beo. mans. survived at all!

I'm sorry---this is way too long winded. I am just finding it so interesting and there is so much written material to research......Well, I'll try to hold it down a little from now on.

Aha so Roger was kin to Lawrance - I saw the site about the Nowell family but upon reading it closly saw no mention of Lawrance - ah so good work Phyll, there was a connection - seems to me there was another town or abby mentioned on that site but I did not copy the URL - Your point about chance made me wonder how many literary gems are still hidden - I Remember seeing on TV an interview with a Duchess who had royal connections to Spain as well as Italy. She had a library of boxed paper work that filled the shelves of a large room - seems to me it was two of her sons, both of who looked to be in their late 20s at the time, slowly going through these boxes that went back to the 12th century. There were so many boxes that no way in their lifetime would they be able to open each box. You know those slip boxes that have a look of a large tome.

I remember someone here bringing up alliteration - upon reading all these many sites it appears to be a key to Anglo-Saxon poetry. One site even explained that because of the alliteration and caesuras in the middle of each line they were more easily able to fill out the story after the manuscript was damaged.

I've been reading your comments with joy and I just had to share this, Phyll mentioned Henry VIII and the runied monastaries, forgive this segue, but when our Books went to England in 2000, we went to Battle, where William the Conqueror met Harold. At Battle are what seems like miles of ruined abbeys, which Henry VIII had pulled down, but you can walk through them...the walls are falling down, where the windows were are gaping empty holes and yet there's a feeling you get that's almost...It's hard to describe, and the CEILINGS, look what's left of the ceilings all this time later! Battle Abbey

I can't describe the feeling you get as you walk through room after room after room that looks just like this and which eerily echoes your footfalls and whispers.

Anyway, could not resist!

ginny

Joan,

Here's what I have for the names that you listed:

Hrothgar = ROTH-GAR

Wealhtheow = WAY-AWL-THAY-OH

Unferth = UN-FERTH

Hygelac = HIGG-UH-LACK

Wiglaf = WIG-LAUF

Beowulf = BAY-OH-WULF

Hope this helps. Meg

If I knew how to create a hyperlink this would be one. To muddy the pronunciation and name waters a bit more, I found this in the Heaney translation with the old English and his version face to face:

Old English, like Modern German, contained many compound words, most of which have been lost in Modern English. Most of the names in Beowulf are compounds. Hrothgar is a combination of words meaning "glory" and "spear"" the names of his older brother Heorogar, comes from "army" and "spear"; Hrothgar's sons Hrethric and Hrothmund contain the first elements of their father's name combined, respectively, with ric (kingdom, empire, Modern German Reich) and mund (hand, protection). As in the case of the Danish dynasty family names often alliterate. Masculine names of the warrior class have military associations. The importance of family and demands of alliteration frequently lead to the designation of characters by formulas identifying them in terms of relationships. Thus Beowulf is referred to as "son of Ecgtheow" or "kinsman of Hygelac" (his uncle and lord). The Old English spellings of names are mostly preserved in the translation. A few rules of pronunciation are worth keeping in mind. Initial H before r was sounded, and so Hrothgat's name alliterates with that of his brogher Heorogar. The combination cg has the value of dg in words like "edge". The first element in the name of Beowulf's father "Ecgtheeow" is the same word as "edge", and by the figure of speech called synecdoche (aa part of something stands for the whole), ecg stands for sword and Ecgtheow means "sword-servant". It is signed Alfred David, but the book itself gives no clue as to who that might be or why his work was in the book.

When in the vocal site I realized this morning that I should tell you that if you click on the wav above a verse that verse will repeat over and over. Then you can take the time to really read the old english as he speaks and hear and see for instance he doent say Bay-OH-Wolf like I have been...he says something like this Ba-o-uff anyway ist is so fascinating I have been in there for hours and dont know what I am listening to in modern english because I cant go fast enough to find which line corrosponds to what line in the translation. But now I am back to clicking on some more verses...I am addicted to that chanting sound and the rhymes. Faith

Here is the url clickable to get to a page that has all the links to some pronunciation practice of old English and lots of other links for you who would like to hear more of the spoken dialect. There are also directions for those who need to use the truevoice rather than wave files.

http://www.engl.virginia.edu/OE/index.html

My husband and I saw arched stone ceilings just like that in Fountains Abbey. We walked through so many abbeys in England and Scotland. What ones stayed with me the most? Fountains, of course, but also Lindesfarne on Holy Island. A strange, almost eerie feeling there probably because the Island is so unique. To be studying happenings now, in the 21st century, that took place near these ancient places when they were intact is still a wonder to me. I am loving this discussion already.

Hi Joan, I'm here! Enjoying all the post and staying up with you all everyday. Last week I checked out a book titled Beowulf and The Finnesburh Fragment by Clarence Griffin Child copywright, l904. I checked this book on purpose because of the copywright date and to compare with Heaney's book. You all have stirred an interest or curiosity about Old English. I looked at most of the sites you all suggested but I'm not able to hear the sound. I'll keep trying.

Also while I was in the Library (college) I discovered The Monsters And The Critics And Other Essays Edited by Christopher Tolkien. Feel real honored about that find because it seems to be a hard book to find.

Again your post are wonderful, helpful, and informative. Looking forward to when you discuss the poem.

I'm so glad you made it, Brumie! Wasn't so sure this morning. Oh my, I'm jealous...the 1904 Clarence Child translation to read alongside the Heaney! Now that will be an experience. Promise that you will let us know how he translates certain passages and alliterations when we begin on Monday?

And yes, the Tolkien has written a wonderful essay. I have a note on my table that I'd like to share ~

Tolkien delivered "The Monsters and Critics" lecture to the British Academy in 1936. In it he said
"It is plainly only in the consideration of Beowulf as a poem, with an inherent poetic significance, that any view or convictin can be reached or steadily held."
There are many people who value Beowulf as an historical resource, and many more who admire the science-fiction aspects. But listen to Tolkien!
"Beowulf is in fact so interesting as poetry, in places poetry so powerful, that this quite overshadows the historical content, and is largely independent even of the most important facts...that research has discovered."
Now, that is how I would like to approach Beowulf...as poetry with a message, alright, several messages to us from the past...

Oh golly, Fai, I keep forgetting to put the sound track of the Beowulf Old English readings into the heading! Each time I see you repeat the link, I kick myself! Well, it's up there now...you won't have to scroll backward for it anymore. Will you talk Brumie through it again...she can't hear it and it is really worth the effort. I love to imagine you chanting aloud the verse. Your getting such a kick out of it is contagious. Our local library has a CD of the readings...not due back until March 12...but I am signed up for it.

Claudia, to make a link, you simply need to "copy" (right click your mouse and select "copy" whatever is in your browser box on top of the page you want to link to. Then come in here and in the posting box where you usually type in messages, right click your mouse and select "paste". We'll take it from there once you get that far.

Wonderful information on the names...did you type all that out, or did you copy and paste it? I like what you found on Beowulf's father's name. Did you notice that, Meg" His name means "edge", which is the same as Heaney pronounces it. Thanks so much for taking the time to type in the pronunciation of those important speaking parts. I'll make an html page tomorrow and put them in the heading along with Beowulf's father's name and Heorot Hall. A good start! We'll make our own pronunciation guide...just like we'll find that monastery!

Ginny, a great photo! DId YOU take that? With a digital camera? Where is Battle? I want to go!

Phyll, I get so upset at Henry! ~ crushed whenever I see something precious that was destroyed during that time...the magnificent stained glass windows in Canterbury cathedral come to mind. It is amazing that the Beowulf manuscript survived, isn't it? I'm a little puzzled on the date that Lawrence Nowell picked up the little old manuscript. I'm puzzled about the date he sold it to Lawrence Nowell. If Cotton died in 1623, then when did he buy it? Was it 1563? Need to recheck that. Did Larry understand the value of the manuscript? I wonder if he was well compensated!

So many more exciting points ...still haven't been through Barb's links! So little time today. Now the Olympics are starting. Will sneak in later. I can't believe I'm playing catch-up this week and we have barely begun!

Later!

I now can fill in some detail about the role of my original major professor at Wisconsin, Robert L. Reynolds, in the migration over some years of the date of the Beowulf redaction to the neigborhood of 1000 CE. We called him (Prof. Reynolds, not Beowulf), Uncle Bob (not, of course, to his face). I can assure you that no student of his, and especially no graduate student, ever left him in anything but awe and wonder at his skill and appreciation for his intelligence and humanity.

Robert E. Bjork and John D. Niles have put together a remarkable book entitled,"A Beowulf Handbook" (1997). Each essay therein provides a thumbnail history of the sundry issues it addresses of major positions put forward by scholars in a sequence of years, commonly from the mid-nineteenth century to the present. If you scan the years from 1869 to 1957, you must be struck by the fact that nobody, and I mean nobody, ever suggested so late a date for the Beowulf poem until the entry (1957) for Robert Reynolds, who "sees a connection between 'Beowulf' and the 'Wonders of the East' and argues for a tenth century date (late ninth at the earliest)."(p. 15). Unfortunately, not much additional detail is given. This is a book you might want to consult in a library edition.

My notes on that point are totally non-existent, but I do know that the "Wonders of the East" is a piece of the voluminous literature called the Alexander Romance (ref. Alex. the Great). My notes are totally inadequate on the other point, which was Reynolds' belief that the geography of Beowulf presupposes knowledge of the Roman and Greek world, not the survival of a genuine local oral tradition from anywhere in the North (either England or Scandinavia). I have on interlibrary loan order a book which contains a short essay by Reynolds on this subject. Uncle Bob was, all his professional life, a bit of a maverick whose publications were in consequence scattered about the learned world. That's what I admired most in him, and probably most of the people whose lives he touched would say much the same.

Apologies for taking so much space for a personal quirk of mine.

Henry are you saying this gentleman suppose the date of composition of Beowulf by the "scop" was 1000ce? Where could I buy that book of essays? Any information? Faith

(Why Read Beowulf? By Robert F. Yeager ) "The whereabouts of the manuscript during the five hundred years after it was written is unknown. We hear of it in 1563, when the Dean of Litchfield, Lawrence Nowell, owned it at least long enough to write his name and the date on the first page. Very likely Nowell saved the manuscript and Beowulf from destruction when Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries and broke up their libraries. From Nowell, again via unknown ways, the manuscript found its way into the famous library of the Elizabethan physician and antiquary Sir Robert Cotton. After CottonÕs death, his collection was eventually recognized as a national treasure, and came under the protection of the Crown."

Cotton wasn't born until 1571 (d.1631) so either Lawrence Nowell held onto the ms. for several years before selling it to Cotton or there is another gap in ownership between 1563 somewhere after 1571.

Added to the amazing journey of this document from the time it was written, is the fact that it is a very small document--only 5 inches by 8 inches in size with no illumination. To me that makes it even more of a miracle that it survived at all!

Henry, my fellow North Carolinian, I am questioning, too. Did your former professor believe that the story, or legend, of Beowulf wasn't even composed in verse narrative until 1000? If that is so, then the written ms. came very shortly after the origination of the poem, wouldn't you think?

Faith, the local university branch library has the paperback version of "A Beowulf Handbook," edited by Robert Bjork and John Niles. It was published by University of Nebraska Press at Lincoln in 1997. 'course what I prefer to do is smoke it over before I decide to buy it, but it should be commonly available should you wish to do so.

Ah, yes, Phyll you do raise that perennial question: what precisely are we trying to date? I think Reynolds may have looked at it this way: the last author(s) who wrote the Ms. that comes down to us had the last say on what it said. We can only speculate about possible antecedents; which I do not believe Prof. Reynolds meant to foreclose in reference to general plot and theme. I do think he thought the author(s)had seen materials that just weren't around in the 6th or 7th century.

Phyll, it's a wonder that our Beowulf copy did survive, isn't it! Besides being rescued from the monastery library destruction, it also survived fire while gathering dust in Cotton's library ~ in 1731. Rebsamen, in the introduction to his own verse translation of Beowulf... describes the period after the fire ~

After that it sat some more without any efforts made at "conservation"...and began to crumble , making it difficult to read in places. Over time, others have inserted what they supposed were the missing words. "But fortunately an Icelandic scholar, Grimur Thorkelin...in 1787, (not too long after the fire), made a copy and also commissioned a professional copyist ignorant of Old English to make another copy imitating the Old English insular script in that same year. The importance of these two copies, and of the earlier editions of the poem beginning with Thorkelin's in 1815 is profound...Though there are some uncertain readings here and there, and a few leaves are badly damaged, a good modern edition presents the poem as about 95% sound, a miraculous survivor of the ravages of history."

Henry, can we all adopt Uncle Bob! He sounds like the kind of teacher every one deserves at least once! A maverick, yes! That's what it takes to make such a lasting impression! Please share with us whatever you glean from his essay? With no apologies for quirkiness!

I hear you saying that the Beowulf poet put this to paper, parchment, or at least dictated it to scribes between the late 800's and 900's? That narrows it and is in line with what I've been reading lately. I'm wondering about this poet, and also those "scops" before him.

Frederick Rebsamen has something to say about the "perks" the early poets must have enjoyed.

"We may imagine the splendor of a court wherein such a poet may have worked. The hall would be hung with rich tapestries, furnished with hansomely wrought benches and trestle tables, distinguished by a "high seat" inlaid with ivory and burnished with gold, the king's table graced with imported glass and silverware, elaborate drinking horns, and cups of precious metals and stones. The royal family and important members of the king's retinue would be richly dressed, with brooches, bracelets, necklaces, and armlets of gold and garnets.

Fine hawks and dogs and horses, heirloom armor and weapons, saddles and bridles often adorned with ivory and silver, would be part of this picture. And of course the ever-present minstral with his harp would be there at the feet of his king, ready to recite from his large repertory."
Rebsamen concludes with this question: "When and where lived an Anglo-Saxon king with enough wealth and sophistication to sponsor such a skillful poet as this, who must have been in demand in even the best courts?"

But what do you think, was the Beowulf poet a king's minstrel, or was he a monk reworking the oral tales into magnificent poetry in between visits to the monastery chapel?

Thank you for the info on hyperlinks. You can see that as my son-in-law says, I'm electronically challenged. Yes I typed it, so there may be lots of errors. Actually, we'll none of us probably verbalize these names, but it's nice to know how to say them when we're reading the poem aloud to ourselves. I think it's probably enough for us to recognize them and sort out who's who. My own thoughts: after reading a number of the essays, it seems to me that there's a great deal of straining to "prove" a theory that is not only unprovable but appears to miss the point completely. (I'm thinking particularly of the one comparing the interlacing motif to its use in literature.) Come on, now... It's a POEM for goodness sake and we should be able to accept it onits own merits. I suspect that like all legends, it may have been based on historical figures to some degree, and then would have been embroidered over the centuries by the various bards who presented it at the great halls. I imagine they were meant to entertain and probably flatter the local lord with comparisons of valor and glory to the great ones of the past. Since monks were about the only segment of the population that could read and write in those centuries, it is likely that the first to record it was a monk. But he may have been recording what he heard and not actually composing it. Given that Christian concepts are introduced it also seems likely that the one who copied it in the tenth century superimposed them onto the original. Reading something like Beowulf, I think we have to use a little common sense. All these scholars have an axe to grind after all. Publish or perish has been around a long time.

Barbara, I have just spent 45 minutes pouring over those links you provided. Wonderful! (where did those color photos come from?)

I like to put together the historical facts now, before we start, to see what it was that inspired the early minstrals to sing in praise and tribute. You posted many of these.

"However, one historical fact in the poem--the killing of Beowulf's lord, Hygelac of the Geats, is verifiable to circa 521 A.D." Even so, the minstrel-bard culture that likely produced the story originates only in the period of A.D. 673-735. Because of the Danish invasion into Anglo-Saxon territory in 790 the sympathetic Danish references in the poem make it probable that the original poem was composed no later than that date. The broad range of dates from A.D. 650 to 850 is supported on linguistic grounds that the poet possibly came from either the court of Aldfrith in Northumbria or King Offa of Mercia. But this also is certainly open to discussion, given that the original surviving manuscript was written by two scribes around A.D. 1000 in West Saxon, the literary language of the time."

Again those two scribes! Were they poets? Did the poet dictate to them?

Claudia, this is the best place to learn the technology. I came into SN 6 years ago and knew nothing. You'll pick it up as you go. Practice copy/paste with that right mouse button and then we'll go into making the hyperlinks. It's not a good idea to do it before you learn to copy and paste...it's too hard to get all those characters in a link right if you type it in yourself.

I agree with you of course...much of this is conjecture...but we are getting the piece into some sort of context with all this information and history, I believe. Once we start discussing the poem on Monday, that's what we will concentrate on...

The first recorded mention of the manuscript is in a letter from George Hickes to Humfrey Wanley on 20 August, 1700, in which Hickes states, "I can find nothing yet of Beowulph."

Included in the site are -- Important Dates:
510 H3⁄4?cyn king of the Geats, and Ongen?eow, the Swedish king, are killed in Battle of Ravenswood.

Bede had a lot to say about the battle of Ravenswood.

An important battle between the Geats and the Svear about 510 AD. The exact site of the battle is unknown, but it is considered one of the important battles of the era.

The Svears are from the northern part of Sweden above Stockholm and the Geats are from G?taland.

Beowulf Chronology with Anglo-Saxon History

The Conquest of Kent. 449?Ñ Loads slowly - includes a map ... In or about 449 a band of Jutish sear-rovers landed at Ebbsfleet, in the Isle of Thanet. According to tradition their leaders were Hengist and Horsa, the names signifying the horse and the mare, which were not very likely to have been borne by real warriors. Whatever may have been the names of the chiefs, Vortigern took them into his service against the Picts, giving them the Isle of Thanet as a dwelling-place for themselves.

c.450 - In the first year of Marcian and Valentinian, Hengest arrives on shores of Britain with "3 keels" of warriors, and are welcomed by Vortigern. This event is known in Latin as the"adventus Saxonum," the coming of the Saxons.

This site explains that there is a difference in how oral Epic is created versus the literary Epic. Classifications of Epic Poetry

Joan I am terrible as a research scholar in that I become so curious about following information about questions that pop into my head as I read that I fly from one site to another and very often do not bookmark the many sites I visit or take time to copy the URL - it is honest curiosity that fires me forward - I usually end up coping a word and plugging that word into the search engine to follow my curiosity. Or I copy a paragraph onto my notepad so that I can find out more about what I've just learned - unfortunately I often forget the accompanying URL.

This great bit I put in an outline form so that I could more easily understand but the information falls into the unfortunate catagory of not having the URL. It does explain further how Beowulf fits the Epic poem.

Heroic: Family, Honour and Feud
True heroic epics usually begin in the middle of a problem or conflict. Usually, there isn't any introduction or background information on what is going on, or the problems the characters are having when the story begins. Most grand speeches are made at the climax or turn of the story, when there is a goal being set or the story is coming to a conclusion.

There are often many warriors in heroic epics, both good and bad. The battles they have can occur at any given moment in the story. There is always a final battle at the end. Beowulf is a traditional heroic epic.

The five main elements in a heroic epic can be found in the story of Beowulf.

I. Beowulf a traditional heroic epic.

A. Supernatural elements: heroic epics often leave out background information.

1. Grendel
a. Powers: strength, couldn't pierce skin
b. Larger than normal appetite
2. Beowulf
a. Strength: killed giants, ripped of Grendal's arm.
b. Reputation: strongest man in world

B. Quest Elements

1. Geats to Denmark
a. Took years to travel
2. Went over seas
3. Traveled by boat
4. Beowulf's army
a. Took 14 men

C. "En Medias Res" Like a heroic epic, there are three characteristics that define Anglo-Saxon poetry.

1. Epic began in the middles of things
a. No background info. About prior events
b. No knowledge of Grendel's life or habitat
c. Epic beginning with Grendel's anger with Hrothgar's men for loud music.

D. Grand Speeches

1. Beowulf's grand speech
a. In which he boasted
2. Beowulf's speech at table
a. His destiny plan
3. Hrothgar
a. Explanation
b. Expressed need

E. Warrior's and battles

1. Opening battle
a. Grendel kills 30 men

1. Grendel the warrior
2. Final battle
a. Beowulf kills Grendel

1. Beowulf the warrior
2. PrestigeÕs Beowulf

II. Anglo-Saxon poetry has no rhyme, strong rhythm, presence of alliteration and kennings.

A. No Rhyme

B. Strong Rhythm
1. 4 beats per line
2. Each line has a caesura(strong pause) in the middle of the line.

C. Alliteration (repetition of constant sounds)
1. "The proudly setting sun" The sound made by the s and the following vowel in both words are both very similar.
2. "So Hrothgar's men lived happy in his hall" The sound made by the h and the following vowel is the same for the words happy and hall.
3. "The seas, was told and swing in all." the sound made by the se and sw are similar.

D. Kennings (metaphorical phrase or compound) Three examples are all describing Grendel.
1. "Powerful monster"
2. "Shepard of evil"
3. "Guardian of crime"

Barbara! There is so much valuable...and helpful information in the above two posts. It will take a while to absorb it all. First of all, thank you for the information from the Monmouth College link, treating the differences between the traditional oral poetry, composed for "performance" and then the epic poetry written down...as literature. It helps me to view the Beowulf manuscript as a culmination of the oral compositions that went before. I have been viewing what I see in the Beowulf poem as "literature", as opposed to "oral" memory of epic events! These two paragraphs jumped at me in particular from the link you provided:

Literary epic poetry is poetry which has been composed and written down by a highly literate poet, who works in much the same way as you might write an essay or poem. Literary epic poetry belongs to the kind of literature that we are familiar with.

"Literary epic poetry- poetry written and intended for a reading audience by a literate poet. (This kind of epic generally coincides with C.S. Lewis' "secondary epic poetry and includes such works as the Aeneid of Vergil, The Divine Comedy of Dante, The Fairie Queen of Spenser, Jerusalem Delivered of Tasso, and Paradise Lost of John Milton. This category may, however, on occasion admit a poem that seems to be "primary;" this would seem to be the case with Beowulf, whose poet was most certainly literate in Anglo-Saxon and Latin, and who was familiar with Vergil's Aeneid, which he consciously imitates in part, while attempting to preserve the historical deeds of a great hero of the past, as handed down by an Anglo-Saxon oral poetic tradition).

Thanks, Barbara!

ps. Here's a nifty trick. Do you use the search engine, www.google.com? In my opinion it is the best! When I lose the source of something I have noted, I simply copy a distinctive line from the information I saved...in this case, I copied the from your post above regarding Grendel's skin...into the Google search box. And Google sent me right to the site you got the information from....http://www.essaybank.co.uk/free_coursework/2706.html
Neat huh? The essay isn't as nicely outlined as you did for us in your post. Will save this information in a safe place for when we get into the poem. Another thanks!

Off to look at the historical links from your first post...I think one of them will go into the resource list in the heading...

aha - thanks for the tip Joan - I also lost a site that included many links and was an outline of English History, not religious history, by Bede. I can see the site in my minds eye and looked for it for hours yesterday - I don't have a direct quote but maybe I can use google and piece enough of what I remember togther and just maybe I will find it again.

So glad you found and included the URL for essaybank - whew - and now maybe with that I can trace myself back to other information I was looking for at the time - This has been great so far I have really nailed this period, the Dark Ages in northern Europe and in England - still not sure what the big difference is between Britain and England but there seems to be a difference noted in several sites.

And I had never heard of Kenning so this is also new for me. That could be so much fun observing our everyday life and creating kennings.

I'm off the College Station - Chris is all of 13 today - By the way did you see the opening ceremonies from Salt Lake 2002 - The only part that I wish I could have been close to was the drumming - during a Pow Wow those drums go into your very soul and the dancers go on and on for as much as 45 minutes to an hour - athletes in their own right - but it also encouraged me to want to find the beat in Beowulf - I bought a CD of the Heaney translation to listen to while I read - I am still not getting the beat though. My Mac won't pick-up the Old English reading that Faith found so I wish I could get a CD or if anyone finds a link to the Poem being read in Old English, Mac compatable, please holler at me - than maybe I could hear the beat.

Barbara brings up an interesting question. Have YOU begun to "hear" the beat in the Modern English translation you are reading? Have you tried to read it aloud? (We know Andy has! Her husband thought she was crying!)

Good morning! Today is the day we turn from what the long list of scholars have had to say ABOUT Beowulf and let the poem speak for itself. The point of this discussion is not simply to learn the poem or to learn of its significance through the past 10+ centuries, but rather to discover something of significance within ourselves. It is the sharing of such observations that never fails to provoke the "aha" in our discussion of these classics!

As we begin, as always, we emphasize that the Schedule in the heading above is only for the purpose of discussion ~ NOT a suggested reading schedule...which is your own personal preference, of course.

This week we're going to feel our way through the number of lines we can comfortably handle and then adjust next week. Let's try lines 1~185, which takes us right up to Beowulf's appearance on the set. Will such numbering of lines be a problem? How is your translation divided?

Just one more comment for those of you who are new to our Great Books discussions. The "Consideration Questions" you see in the Heading are ONLY put there to stimulate discussion. You don't have to answer any of them. Please feel free to comment about any aspect of the lines on the schedule for the week. And post your own questions ~ they are the best! Are you ready?

I'd be very interested in hearing how the opening lines (first three) of the translation you are reading compare with Seamus Heaney's. Do you get an idea of one of the themes ...and the tone right from the git-go?

Joan: The first three lines of my text (translated by Wm Ellery Leonard) is :

What ho! (gets ones attention, doesn't it?)We've heard the glory of Spear-Danes, clansmen-Kings,
Their deeds of olden story- how fought the Aetherlings!
Often Scyld Scefing reft his foremen all,
Reft the tribes of wassail of bench and mead in hall.

Actually, that is the first four lines but I felt it necessary to mention what Scyld was refting. What the heck is reft anyway?

These opening lines lend an air on honor and glory to the poem. It gives it an air of distinction and excellence as well as a common ancestry.

In regards to the "ring" question, the first mention that I can find of the rings is
"There in haven stood she, her prow a rounded ring,
Icy and outbound, barge of the Aetherlings."

Further on, I believe that Heorot was described as a "ring-chamber."

Breeden translation: Listen: You have heard of the Danish Kings in the old days and how they were great warriors. Shield, the son of Sheaf, took many an enemy's chair, terrified many a warrior, after he was found an orphan. He prospered under the sky until people everywhere listened when he spoke. He was a good king!

Heaney translation:

So. The Spear-Danes in days gone by
and the kings who ruled them had courage and greatness.
We have heard of those princes heroic campaigns.
There was Shield Sheafson, scourge of many tribes,
a wrecker of mead-benches, rampaging among foes.

 
Reft:  (Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary) 
Main Entry: reave  
Function: verb 
Inflected Form(s): reaved or reft, reaváing 
Etymology: Middle English reven, from Old English rEafian;
 akin to Old High German roubOn to rob, Latin rumpere to break 
Date: before 12th century 
intransitive senses: PLUNDER , ROB  
transitive senses: 
1 archaic (1)ROB , DESPOIL  (2)to deprive one of: SEIZE  
2 archaic: to carry or tear away 
reaváer noun

All three of these translations seem to be convey the same meaning in the opening lines. Just different choice of words for modern clarity, I think. (But I like "What ho! better for the opening line.)

Thanks Phyl, I was becoming (be)reft trying to find the translation of such.

Oho! Andy, it looks as if Maryal will have to exchange her grog supply for mead. Is there much of a difference? We need a mead definition, Phyll! AS Heaney puts it, Shield/Scyld was "a wrecker of mead-benches". He went into the halls of his foes and broke up their revelry! They were bereft! Merciless!

"What ho!" "Listen!" Yes, they do sound like attention-getters. Heaney choses the word "So" to start his tranlation. To me, that sounds more like something someone would say in the middle of a conversation...as if making a conclusion about a topic under discussion. It's as if we are coming into a discussion already underway.

And the topic is about something that happened long ago and far away. So we know Shield/Scyld is an ancestor from the old days, one who was greatly admired for his "courage", "heroism" and "gloriously" successful in battle. These characteristics were greatly valued, I'd say, since they come up in the first three lines...

and glad to be here. So many people in and out of my bro-in-law's house. So many exclamations of "You look just like her." So much pain in my nephew's eyes. So many grandsons (4 of the 5 were there) roiling around. And now I am anchored for a while in sadness. If I am not up on my toes, I know you will forgive.

Opening lines from an anthology I have (translator not listed, or not so I can find him/her):

Lo! we have listened to many a lay
Of the Spear-Danes' fame, their splendor of old,
Their mighty princes, and martial deeds!
Many a mead-hall Scyld, son of Sceaf,
Snatched from the forces of savage foes.

Not bad, although a little heavy on the exclamation points for my taste(!) I do admire the alliteration in the final line, the s's and f's. Good line.

OK, found my translator's name hidden in the introduction:

C.W. Kennedy

You take all the time you need. Beowulf will probably be around here for another 5 or 6 centuries. In the meantime, I'm into the mead.

Shield Sheafson is a great warrior, rampaging and wrecking. But in subduing the many different tribes, he presumably also unites them in subjection: "...he laid down the law among the Danes...". He was generous to his followers."That was one good king."

With the prospect of inheriting a united kingdom Beow is sympathetic and understanding towards his future subjects, prudently generous, with the aim of building up a loyal following. He keeps the forts --he doesn't have to be a savage warrior.

Hrothgar, like his great-grandfather Shield, gains a reputation as a mighty warrior, and thus attracts hordes of followers. He intends to be very generous in distribution of his "God-given goods".

Hrothgar's sister apparently posseses erotic talents, to the comfort of her husband.

Great post everybody! I've already learned what reft means and who Shield Sheafson was.

I like the way Child begins.

"Lo! We have heard tell of the might in days of old of the Spear-Danes' folk-kings, how deeds of prowess were wrought by the athelings. Oft Scyld Scefing reft away their mead-benches from the throngs of his foes, for many a people. Fear came of the earl, after he was found at the first in his need. Redress he won for that, waxed under the clouds, throve in his glories, till of them that dwelt nigh him over the whale-road, each must obey him, and pay him tribute. That was a good king!"

If the theme is expressed in the first three lines, it is one of Danish courage and greatness in days gone by. The greatness is lodged in royalty who have conducted heroic campaigns with courage. Admiration and nostalgia affect the tone, making it serious. The rank and file appear to be included as an after thought in spite of their appearance in the first line. It is the nobility who will do the deeds in this epic. The men of the line will appear as a Greek chorus in the background. The great deeds will have noble doers.It smacks of Odyseus, the King of Ithaca.

I am still chanting(with the old english) and trying to find rythems in the different on line translations too. So far I have had little luck but will get into it. I looked at Waldens today and believe it or not they had no translation. I think I will work with the online versions and order the Heaney edition and just wait for it. Faith

Try Borders. I found Heaney there.

A special called "The Vikings" will play on television tomorrow (Tuesday) night, at eight pm Pacific time.

Maryal, no need to be up on those toes, love. Come over here and share my mead bench and let me ask you something about alliteration...the repetition of initial sounds. You point out an example of mixed alliterative sounds, the "f" and the "s"...does this sort of mixture have a name? It does produce a pleasing effect.

Scyld, son of Sceaf
Snatched forces of savage foes.

(I'm wondering how we know Scyld's father's name...thought he was a foundling...(a foundling found floating - this is contagious, right, Phyll?) ~ unless Sceaf is his adoptive father?)

When we admire the alliteration in our Modern English translations, aren't we really admiring the translator-poet, rather than the Beowulf poet's choice of words ...and alliteration? Does anyone have the Old English for that line? I know Faith is over in the corner chanting it aloud...can you make out the words, Faith? Are they alliterative? Is C.W. Kennedy attempting to immitate the Beowulf's poet use of alliteration? It is not present in Seamus Heaney's translation. This really isn't important...except to point out that each translator does become a poet in his own way, doesn't he?

Justin, thanks for the heads-up on the Vikings tonight....is it on the History channel? Tough tv-viewing decisions these days. My sons always drive me crazy with the remote, clicking back and forth between games. Last night I was back and forth between the Olympic luge, the Westminster Kennel show, the skating. And now tonight the Vikings enter the mix! How do I find time to read?

Did you see the perky little Jack Russell, Maryal? He came right after the Irish Terrier. My Irish actually opened one eye to look when I pointed him out to her.

Carolyn, I'm sitting here pondering your post, trying to understand what prompted the Beowulf poet to mention Halfdane's daughter's "erotic powers. (I have a footnote here explaining that Halfdane's mother was Swedish, his father Danish. I love his resulting name!) Heaney uses the wonderful alliteration to describe her powers...she was a balm in bed. Perhaps her talents kept her "battle-scarred" Swede squarely in her brother, Hrothgar's camp? Such support would only add to his growing domination.

Such generosity and sympathetic understanding seem to be important for successful leadership ~ as you point out, the generosity in distributing "God-given goods" was essential. Note the reference to a generous God here.

Andy, rings are specifically mentioned in the Heaney translation when describing Shield on his funeral barge..."the great ring giver"...in line 36. Does anyone else find a ring reference in this description? There was another mention of rings and bracelets being donated to his funeral barge...instead of flowers.

Isn't that the truth? That line was used to describe Beow's leadership...his generosity led to his ability to unify. Justin, the opening lines do introduce an admiration for nobility. When I read your post..."greatness is lodged in royalty", I immediately thought of the foundling, Shield. He didn't start out as one of the royals. People admire different sorts of behaviour. Generosity wasn't what made Shield the "good king" he was to become.

The passage Brumie posted introduces the element of "fear", Heaney calls it "terror". Shield proved himself in battle. That's where his power came from, not his lineage. So let's add admiration for "battle" prowess to the themes that are noted in the opening lines. As Carolyn points out, it was Hrothgar who stands out from his other royal siblings...for his battle prowess, like grandpa Shield.

Off for the day...enjoy!

So glad you are back and when you are feeling up to it, you and Joan can whip up a little of this for we thirsty scops. (I thought of you, too, when I saw the darling Jack Russell terrier last night. I think he should have taken first in the group.)

I'll be back this afternoon and I expect a nice big flagon of mead to be awaiting me!!!!

"SMALL MEAD (from Cariadoc's Miscellany )

Take nine pints of warm fountain water, and dissolve in it one pint of pure White-honey, by laving it therein, till it be dissolved. Then boil it gently, skimming it all the while, till all the scum be perfectly scummed off; and after that boil it a little longer, peradventure a quarter of an hour. In all it will require two or three hours boiling, so that at last one third part may be consumed. About a quarter of an hour before you cease boiling, and take it from the fire, put to it a little spoonful of cleansed and sliced Ginger; and almost half as much of the thin yellow rind of Orange, when you are even ready to take it from the fire, so as the Orange boil only one walm in it. Then pour it into a well-glased strong deep great Gally-pot, and let it stand so, till it be almost cold, that it be scarce Luke-warm. Then put to it a little silver-spoonful of pure Ale-yest, and work it together with a Ladle to make it ferment: as soon as it beginneth to do so, cover it close with a fit cover, and put a thick dubbled woollen cloth about it. Cast all things so that this may be done when you are going to bed. Next morning when you rise, you will find the barm gathered all together in the middle; scum it clean off with a silver-spoon and a feather, and bottle up the Liquor, stopping it very close. It will be ready to drink in two or three days; but it will keep well a month or two. It will be from the first very quick and pleasant."

Alliteration is not in Heaney's that little I have read, nor in Breeden's ..Gummere tries "Oft Scyld the Scefing(hesitation) from squadroned foes,(hesitation) from many a tribe,(hesitation) the mead bench tore," F.Gummere has a very easily "chanted" translation.However none have the allliteration of the sound of the reading of Old English. There is a sound and rythem together which is alliteration in my mind. Am I wrong Maryal. I have a fondness for Breeden's as it tells the story so clearly in real spoken English, of course that is not what we are discussing but it helps me to use that as I read the other translations so I have printed out his prolog and may buy several translations I am so involved with this Saga ...Faith

Oh my am I learning stuff about rings - a 'ring-giver' must be a kenning and from what I am learning it could have possibly as many as three meanings -

One site I found is that 'Ring' is a current boys name from this time in history.

Then there is this:

Meantime Ingild died in Sweden, leaving only a very little son, Ring, whom he had by the sister of Harald. Harald gave the boy guardians, and put him over his father's kingdom. Thus, when he had overcome princes and provinces, he passed fifty years in peace.

To save the minds of his soldiers from being melted into sloth by this inaction, he decreed that they should assiduously learn from the champions the way of parrying and dealing blows. Some of these were skilled in a remarkable manner of fighting, and used to smite the eyebrow on the enemy's forehead with an infallible stroke; but if any man, on receiving the blow, blinked for fear, twitching his eyebrow, he was at once expelled the court and dismissed the service.

Then the next bit:

So they went to the fight, and Thordis met Thorvard now as before, but Cormac sought no help from her. She blunted Cormac's sword, so that it would not bite, but yet he struck so great a stroke on Thorvard's shoulder that the collarbone was broken and his hand was good for nothing. Being so maimed he could fight no longer, and had to pay another ring for his ransom.

This was included in several sites:

The reward for slaying a king is in one case 120 gold lbs.; 19 "talents" of gold from each ringleader, 1 oz. of gold from each commoner, in the story of Godfred, known as Ref's gild, "i.e., Fox tax". In the case of a great king, Frode, his death is concealed for three years to avoid disturbance within and danger from without.

To exact the blood-fine was as honourable as to take vengeance." -- This maxim, begotten by Interest upon Legality, established itself both in Scandinavia and Arabia. It marks the first stage in a progress which, if carried out wholly, substitutes law for feud. In the society of the heathen Danes the maxim was a novelty; even in Christian Denmark men sometimes preferred blood to fees.

THE FAMILY AND BLOOD REVENGE. -- This duty, one of the strongest links of the family in archaic Teutonic society, has left deep traces in Saxo.

To slay those most close in blood, even by accident, is to incur the guilt of parricide, or kin-killing, a bootless crime, which can only be purged by religious ceremonies; and which involves exile, lest the gods' wrath fall on the land, and brings the curse of childlessness on the offender until he is forgiven.

Another word that came up as I read soooooo much about all this is weregild which seems to be used when they are talking about the legality of boot - somehow I haven't yet nailed all this but it appears that fighting and gilt or gold as booty and rings are all bits and pieces of the laws of war which is further defined if it is withing clans and families.

Maybe there is more significance to Beowulf being introduced when he first lands - he has to make some connections stronger than simply strangers coming to help.

I am also thinking that there may be more to the exacting of booty or something because of Beowulf taking Grendel's arm -

Old English culture: ÒRing-giverÓ = King, he gave golden armbands to people.

When I put ring or ring-giver or booty etc. into my search engine sites about dueling keep coming up but I cannot find specifically anything that refers to a ring or rings except that rings where often on medieval flags. I keep thinking rings may have some meaning as to the way they fight because later in the poem the Danes say the Beowulf does not have the rings.

The only thing along those lines that I came up with is later in history.

advancing Saxon shield ring. There was no way for the Danes to maneuver from the ridge other than down the ridgeline itself and through the upwardly advancing Saxon shield ring. And the victory that Alfred achieved at Ethandune was absolute and incontestable.

This bit goes on to say the victory of this battle is when the Danelaw was put in place - I'm off looking into Law and the Danelaw.

Also I am going to put in a seperate post a poem that I remembered my children studying in school - I finally located it - What is important to know is that Austin was originally a very Norwegian community. In fact after Mrs. Dickson was let out of the Alamo she married a German coffin and cabinet maker from Lockhart - because he was German for a long time they would not allow Mrs. Dickinson back in Austin although she was one of only a very few that was freed from the Alamo. All to say that this poem which is really about the Alamo is using lots of Norwegian analogies including the phrase "ring-giver."

THE DEATH OF BOWIE GIZZARDSBANE
John Meyers Meyers

Harsh that hearing for Houston the Raven:
(Ravens fly before a sign of the god, Wodan's great favour, and especially before a battle or after a holy rite. The raven is also tied to Wodan through its relationship to the gallows. As gallows-bird or battle-bird; there is the Germanic sacrificial practice of hanging prisoners after a battle.)
Fools had enfeebled the fortress at Bexar,
(the Alamo is in San Antonio which is in Bexar County)
Leaving it lacking and looted the while
Hordes were sweeping swift on his land,
Hell-bent to crush him. The Cunning old Prince
Did not, though, despair at danger's onrushing;
Hardy with Peril, he held it, perused it,
Reading each Rune of it. Reaching the facts he
Thumbed through his thanes And thought of the one
(Thane: a freemason granted land by the king in return for military service - in Scotland a Feudal Lord_
Whose Guts and Grey matter were grafted most neatly.
"Riders", he rasped, "to race after Bowie!"
"Bowie!", he barked when that bearcat of Heros
Bowed to his loved prince, "Bexar must be ours
Or no one must have it. So hightail! Burn leather!
Hold me that Fortress or fire it and raze it.
Do what you can or else do what you must!"
Fame has its fosterlings, free of the limits
Boxing all others, and Bowie was one of them.
Who has not heard of the holmgang at Natchez?
Holm: an island in the middle of a river
Fifty were warriors, but he fought the best,
Wielding a long knife, a nonesuch of daggers
Worthy of Wayland. That weapon had chewed
The entrails of Dozens. In diverse pitched battles
That thane had been leader; by land and by sea
Winning such treasure that trolls, it is said,
Closed hills out of fear he'd frisk them of silver.
Racing now westward, he rode into Bexar,
Gathered the Garrison, gave them his orders:
"Houston the Raven is raising a host;
Time's what he asks while he tempers an army.
Never give up this gate to our land.
Hold this door fast, though death comes against us."
The flood of the Foeman flowed up to Bexar,
Foeman: enemy
Beat on the dam braced there to contain it.
But Wyrd has no fosterlings, favors no clients;
fosterlings:Foster Child
Bowie, the war-wise winner of battles,
Laid out by fever, lost his first combat,
Melting with death. Yet the might of his spirit
Kept a tight grip on the trust he'd been given.
"Buy time, my bucks," he told his companions.
"Be proud of the price; our prince is the gainer."
Bold thanes were with him, thirsty for honor,
Schooled well in battle and skilled in all weapons;
Avid for slaughter there, each against thirty,
They stood to the walls and struck for their chieftains,
Houston and Bowie, the bearcat of heros.
Twelve days they ravaged the ranks of the foemen.
Tens, though can't harrow the hundreds forever;
That tide had to turn. Tiredly the thanes
Blocked two wild stormings and bled them to death.
The third had the drive of Thor's mighty hammer,
Roared at the walls and rose to spill over,
Winning the fort. But the foemen must pay.
Heroes were waiting them, hardy at killing,
Shaken no whit, though sure they were lost.
Ten lives for one was the tariff for entry;
And no man got credit. Crushed and split skulls,
Blasted off limbs and lathers of blood
Were the money they soughted and minted themselves-
Worth every ounce of the weregild they asked.
Of every eleven though, One was a hero
Turned to a corpse there. Cornered and Hopeless,
They strove while they yet stood, stabbing and throttling,
Meeting the Bear's death, dying while fighting.
Chieftains of prowess, not chary of slaying,
Led and fell with them. Alone by the wall,
Travis, the red maned, the truest of warriors,
Pierced through the pate and pouring out blood,
kept death marking time, defied it until
His sword again sank, sucking blood from a foeman.
Content, then, he ended. So also died Crockett,
Who shaved with a star and stamped to make earthquakes,
Kimball, the leader of loyal riders,
Bonham, whose vow was valor's own hallmark.
Crazed by their losses, the conquerors offered
No truce to cadavers; The corpses were stabbed
In hopes that life's spark would be spared to afford them
Seconds on killing. Then some, Taking count,
Bawled out that Bowie was balking them still;
Like weasels in warrens they wound through the fort,
Hunting the hero they hated the most.
Least of the lucky, at last some found him,
Fettered to bed by fever and dying,
Burnt up and shrunken, a shred of himself.
Gladly they rushed him, but glee became panic.
Up from the gripe of the grave, gripping weapons,
Gizzardsbane rose to wreak his last slaughter,
Killing, though killed. Conquered, he won.
In brief is the death lay of Bowie, the leader
Who laid down his life for his lord and ring giver,
Holding the doorway for Houston the Raven,
Pearl among princes, who paid in the sequel:
Never was vassal avenged with more slayings!

OK, first the alliteration question. Beowulf (in Old English) does not rhyme. Each line has FOUR stressed syllables and a varying number of unstressed ones. Every line has a distinct pause in the middle which divides the line into two half-lines.

The two half-lines are then tied together with alliteration. The third stessed syllable always alliterates with either the first or second stressed syllable.

example: fleon on fen-hopu; wiste his fingra geweald (l 764)

Heaney uses a good deal of alliteration but does not observe the midline pause. I don't know of any modern translations that do.

example: ...Behaviour that's admired
is the path to power among people everywhere.

OK, enough alliteration lesson.

On to MEAD
.

Phyll--I do appreciate the Mead recipe as I seem to have misplaced mine! Boy, it sure is going to require some WORK what with all the skimming required to get that SCUM off, but I shall be careful to work at it "till all the scum be perfectly scummed off" so that all of you may enjoy fine flagons of mead.

~Maryal the Meadmaid

I wonder if the mead-benches is a 'kenning' for those sitting on the benches drinking the mead - I would think hall-troops were the everyday soldier who spent their time in the hall drinking mead while sitting on all those benches - Do you think that our use of the word scum comes from those that drank too much mead? I'm remembering my mother using the expression 'the dregs of the earth'.

Ok found it -- WERGILD - Obs.Ger. Monetary compensation paid by a murderer to the relatives of the victim.

WERGILD, or WEREGILD, old Eng. law. The price which in a barbarous age, a person guilty of homicide or other enormous offence was required to pay, instead of receiving other punishment.

Seems to me we still have folks offering wergild to the 9/11 victims families in place of their going to court.

Mead is a honey-based fermented beverage that has been produced and enjoyed since before the dawn of recorded history. Because of its antiquity, mead has acquired an almost magical reputation in our mythologies. For example, the term "honeymoon" is intertwined with the custom of drinking honey-based mead for a month (moon) after the wedding; this practice was said to ensure baby boys. Mead making was once the province of a select, trained guild. Now, it is open to all who have the patience and skill.

from the Mead-Makers readit:

Thank you Maryal, but I'll be taking milk or juice on this trip.

Wassail!

While reading the mead-lovers digest you will occasionally see the word "Wassail". It's a toast, an expression of good will, much as a beer drinker might offer "Prosit" or "Cheers". The word derives from Old Norse through Middle English, and means "be healthy". The dictionary lists two pronun- ciations (wahs'ul, wah-sale').

Before going on to Grendel, I have a question about Shield. Was anyone else as taken aback as I was to learn that he was no ordinary foundling, but rather had been set afloat in a boat full of treasure? Why does the poet hold back this information until the description of the funerary rights? Is this some kind of narrative or stylistic device? and if so, to what purpose?

MARYAL, a word of thanks for the admirably clear explanation of alliteration and stress.

Carolyn

Carolyn: I wonder if ships will play a prominent part in this story. The castaway babe was rescued by the Danes and then set to sail, "to the sea-tides", laden with many treasures, into the unknown at the time of his death.

In Lord of the Rings, one of the heros was set to sail much in the same manner.

Speaking of alliteration I love this verse.

Nor was it long thereafter, men saw its f inished frame

the greatest of all hall-houses, Heorot was its name.

Carolyn, I never noticed that! Heaney says the same

"They decked his body no less bountifully
with offerings than those first ones did
who cast him away when he was a child."

No less bountifully?
Goodness, we read here of the wealth that went out on Shield's funeral barge! Who would send a living babe out to sea? And a royal one at that? Perhaps they thought he was dead, and this was to be a funeral barge for the baby?

Did you notice the lines about Shield's wishes about how he was to be buried?

"His warrior band did what he bade them
When he laid down the law among the Danes."

I read somewhere that the pagans burned corpses in huge bonfires, but here we read that the pagan king requested this sort of send off. I'm wondering if this is a Christian burial. I did notice that, but not the fact that Shield the baby probably was royalty. Justin, I take back what I said yesterday. I wonder if we will hear more about his discovery, and who took care of him when he reached the Danish shore.

Perhaps it is a device, Carolyn. After all, we haven't met the hero of our tale yet. The Beowulf poet holds him back for a while and slowly builds up to his entrance. Maybe he withholds Shield's royal lineage for impact (which went right over my head, I'll have to admit.)

It's my guess, and this is just a guess, not even a particularly educated one, that the listeners to Beowulf, back when it was chanted aloud, knew the legends of Shield and would have filled in the gaps about his origin. It does look as if he were royal by blood.

The paradigm I'm using here is Greek. Those Greek audiences already knew the story of Oedipus when they went to see the plays. In fact, they knew all the stories. It must have been the way the story was told that so fascinated them.

I think it would have been the same with Beowulf.

Maryal, thank you for the alliteration lesson...so nicely illustrated, colors and all! In the back of my mind is the thought to really appreciate this Beowulf, one would have to learn Old English and see translate it in that way.

Fai is not experiencing the beat or seeing the alliteration in Heaney's translation, and that makes me wonder about just what it is that Heaney does do? He is a master poet, this man! He won the Nobel prize for poetry. If he's not alliteratin' or observing a rhythm, what is he doing?

There is something engaging in his style...and it is very easy to follow what is going on. I remembered that he spelled out his approach to the task of translating the poem in his Introduction and would like to share what he said ~ because it is helping me to appreciate what he is doing.

"I came to the task of translating Beowulf with a prejudice in favor of forthright delivery." (Yes, I have noticed and do appreciate this.)
"I have not followed the strict metrical rules that bound the Anglo-Saxon scop I have been guided by the fundamental pattern of four stresses to the line, but I allow myself several transgressions. For example, I don't always employ alliteration, and sometimes I alliterate only in one half of the line.

When these breaches occur, it is because I prefer to let the natural "sound of sense" prevail over the demands of convention."

There's more, but I want to keep this brief. He puts four stresses in the line, he does alliterate...but in only one half of the line. So here's an example of what he's doing (sometimes)

The fortunes of war favored Hrothgar. (line 64)

Can you hear the four beats? The alliteration...as long as you pronounce WROTE-gar, it alliterates with war...

I am signed up for Heaney's reading of his translation at our local library. Won't get it until March 13, but hey, that's just around the corner!

I think that most of the time Heaney does get four strong beats into each line and frequently he has alliteration in both parts of the line.

I strongly support his decision to occasionally break with the form and follow the meaning, the sense, of the poem rather than to be too tightly bound by a form that is completely unfamiliar to modern readers. Our ears are simply not attuned to poetry like Beowulf and we are not hearing it outloud (well, er, Faith is) which I think makes all the difference.

Maryal, I agree with you...I think the Beowulf "audience" knew these stories from the frequency of the telling and it was the power of the scop to tell of the same events in an innovative, entertaining way.

I am so enjoying this...Phyll, I have all my ingredients together for the mead...but find I am fresh out of one of them...can you recomment a substitute for the "little silver-spoonful of pure Ale-yest?"

(Andy, we must have had more mead on our honeymoon than I realized...we ended up with four sons...)

Barb/Andy, I do want to talk more with you about the ring-giving and especially about Tolkien, but am running out of time and bytes. Next time.

How do you all envision Heorot?

good heavens, Joan!! You are missing the most important element. No yeast, no fermentation, no mead. Just honey and water and a few spices. Must get that yeast immediately. geeeeeeee.

or better still, leave it to me to make the mead.

Andy--You can have all this CYBER mead you want with no damage to internal organs.

Barbara--Re: those abundant ring references you provided--I'll go with the king (or leader) as ring-giver, demonstrating his liberality which was a cardinal virtue. Funny though, I never thought of arm rings. Always had rings that go on fingers or that are used to seal letters in my mind. Of course, you are right--ARM rings would be more appropriate for a warrior.

Carolyn--you are most welcome. Alliteration and stress are two of the easier things to explain. Just don't ask any hard questions!

Joan, appreciate your post #l67. You cleared that up for me.

Yes I agree I like the arm ring explanation but that still doesn't explain the rings mentioned on Beowulf's ship prow nor the words Dane-ring -- I feel that rings have a symbolism that we are missing - I have spent more hours researching but nothing yet - My faithful Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols is only giving symbolic meaning for rings that are either Christian or Egyptian or Greek but not Scandanavian or Germanic - the same for Gold which is another word repeated and repeated.

I do not know German opera but isn't there a ring of either three operas or something - does anyone know German opera and what the ring represents. Is this Sigemund by any chance a hero in the opera?

I did find this tidbit thought -

The boar was a beast of battle: Beowulf speaks of the boar-crested helms of the warriors, and such helms were actually found in the Migration Age Anglo-Saxon burials of Sutton Hoo and Bentley Grange. "Hildisv?n" (Battle-swine) and "Hildig?ltr" (Battle-boar) were names for helmets;

As to the alliterations and the beat - I have to really slow down and read it on my own to pick it out - just now I'm still reading trying to figure out what this story is all about - what is the point of the story - what significance it all has - ...

I can almost pick out the parts, as if they were added, where the story becomes more Christian. Rather judgemental I thought as the bit was inserted about their not having any place to turn in their time of trouble, finishing up with ...But blessed is he who after death can approach the Lord and find friendship in the Father's embrace. I'm getting this sense of good over evil almost like a Jesus story with "Hrothgar, regal and arrayed with gold" as God the Father and Beowulf a combination of Jesus and Percival.

Seems to me there are several myths among the Celts and Norsemen of babies found at sea - in fact there was a movie made about two years ago, of a baby found in a sealskin boat in nineteenth century Ireland - somthing Innisfrae, I am not spelling it at all correctly.

Back to the beat - I bought the CD of Seamus Heaney reading his Beowulf and it almost sounds like he is reading prose in a sort of breathless way. If there is any beat he seems to be ignoring it as he reads the story.

One thing for sure though there is something about this story - I can picture a group around a large fire in the center of a darkened mead-hall with only the fire for light reflecting off all the gold, all in rapt attention tapping out the beat to help the storyteller as he brings them along with the tale.

Joan,

I'd offer some very fine high-quality ale yest to you but I am afraid I am fresh out. However, I can direct you to a supplier that will be happy to send you some for Sweet or Dry Mead, whichever is your preference. (I prefer Sweet, myself.) Prices may seem a bit dear but you could probably make a goodly batch from a quarter pound of yest.

Sweet Mead Yeast .25 Lb $6.50 Dry Mead Yeast .25 Lb $6.50 found at: Bootleggers Supply Happy brewing (and keep an eye out for the revenooers)!

I agree that arm rings are the items that are meant when it says "he" doled out rings, Maryal. Heaney says of Hrothgar:

"Nor did he renege, but doled out rings
and torques at the table."

A secondary meaning of "torque" given in the Webster Dict. defines torque as a necklace of twisted metal. I think it makes sense that the "breaker of rings" would give out arm rings and metal necklaces as payment for good work for the building of Heorot.

Well I am getting into the rythem of on line Gummere translation (I only found the prologue) and the on line Heaneys. They both have a rythem and try for alliteration. Breeden doesn't even attempt what the others attempted. He is really forthright in his delivery and crafts a very modern poet's rendition of the story. Now one thing there is a disagreement in the various translations. In the last lines of the verses of Shield's funeral Breeden writes: "No doubt he had a little more than he did as a child when he was sent out, a naked orphan in an empty boat." So Breeden does not read into the poem any going out as a babe in a treasure filled boat. Faith

Hooray - I found it! - I found it!
First there is this small bit that confirms for us arm rings -

Beowulf.- The Harvard Classics. 190914.

there laid they down their darling lord
on the breast of the boat, the breaker-of-rings,
Kenning for king or chieftain of a comitatus: he breaks off gold from the spiral ringsÑoften worn on the armÑand so rewards his followers.

And now the pi?ce de r?sistance - I just knew those rings had to have some other meaning. Also, even found the whole issue about gold. The links have so much more valuable information y'all may want to take a look - I took just that bit from each site that explained the rings and gold.

There are examples in literature of this blending of traditions, like that of Helgi the Lean, from Landnamabok, raised a Christian, but who "called upon Thor for seafaring and difficult decisions, and matters he considered of greatest importance"...King Hakon the Good of Norway, who had been obliged to drink from a bowl of sacrificial ale: "The king took it and made the sign of the cross over it. Then said Kar of Gryting, 'Wherefore does the king so? Will he even now not sacrifice?' Sigurd the Jarl answered, 'The king does as all do, who trust in their skill and strength; he blesses the bowl in the name of Thor, and makes the sign of the hammer over it before he drinks'. However, despite the strong Christian influence on the development of the hammer as a religious symbol, it is evident that the imagery, meaning and function of the hammer were entirely heathen.

Thor's hammers of many different styles are known, from simple shapes in iron or bronze to elaborately crafted works of silver with staring eyes and bearded faces, sometimes suspended on rings and twisted chains. The rings are miniature versions of those kept in the temples of Thor, upon which oaths were sworn and contracts were sealed, so that the wrath of Thor would fall upon those who broke their agreements.

The chains, made of twisted wire and sometimes ending in monstrous heads, recall Jormangand, the Midgard Serpent, the monstrous offspring of Loki, whose coils encircle the world, and with whom Thor does battle in a famous episode from Hymiskvida, a scene which is found carved on a memorial stone from Altuna, Sweden, and another stone under Gosforth Church, Cumberland. Many other memorial stones incorporate hammer designs; example from Stenkvista, Sweden, which shows a hammer hanging from a thong-like serpent design. Often the stones bear runic inscriptions...

OK here is a bit from the myth that explains our rings and gold.

And when they got to the workshop, Eitri put a pig's hide in the forge and told Brokk to blow and not stop until he took out of the forge what he had put in. And as soon as he left the workshop and the other was blowing, a fly settled on the latter's arm and nibbled, but he went on blowing as before until the smith took his work out of the forge, and it was a boar and its bristles were of gold.

Next he put gold in the forge and told Brokk to blow and not stop the blowing before he came back; he went out. And then the fly came and settled on his neck and nibbled twice as hard, but he went on blowing until the smith took from the forge a gold ring called Draupnir.

Then he put iron in the forge and told him to blow and said it would turn out no good if there was any pause in the blowing. Then the fly settled between his eyes and nibbled his eyelids, and when the blood dripped in his eyes so that he could not see, he snatched at it with his hand as quick as he could while the bellows was on its way down and swept the fly away. And then the smith came back, saying it had come close to everything in the forge being ruined. Then he took from the forge a hammer, then handed over all the precious things to his brother Brokk and told him to take them to Ásgard and fulfil the wager.

He gave the ring to Odinn and said that every ninth night there would drip from it eight rings equal to it in weight.

Odin slid his gold ring, Draupnir, onto Balder's arm. Then he lit the pyre, and sent Balder on his long journey...

Hermod pleaded with the goddess Hel to let his brother return with him to the land of the living. "Everyone loves Balder. Everyone weeps for him," he said.

"If it is as you say," said Hel, "Balder may return to life. But everything in the world must weep for him. If one refuses, he must stay with me."

Hermod took leave of his brother, who gave him back the arm ring Draupnir as a token for his father, Odin. Forever afterward, on every ninth night, Draupnir has wept, and its tears always form eight more arm rings of the same size.

The Dragon's Gold is another site with snippets of Norse myth. Examples include Draupnir, OdenÕs golden ring, that every ninth night spawned nine identical rings, or Svija-swine, the golden ring inherited and owned by King Adils in Uppsala. The scald Eyvind also owned a gold ring, Molde, which was unearthed long ago.

These objects were animated and lived in symbiosis with their owners, the ownerÕs prosperity and misfortunes being transmitted to the objects. Gold and silver were the material manifestation of a personÕs success and reputation. In the same way an object could transfer part of the former ownerÕs traits to the succeeding owner.

Gold was habitually used for the acquisition of retainers. The chieftain was required to be generous with gifts to his followers. Bracelets of gold were such gifts.

In the ancient Icelandic language, there was a particular word for gold rings; "baugr" (bow). This word can often be found...in the scaldic poems we find metaphors for chieftains, such as "ring flingers" and "wealth squanderers"

A study ... in the development of the gold bracteates indicates a connection between the figures represented, and the various stories in Ancient Nordic mythology. Of particular common occurrence are the figural representations connected with Oden, the highest of the Viking Age gods.

The dwarfs where great metal workers, for whom even the gods went to for metal working. Dwarfs such as the sons of Invaldi, Brokk and Eitri where makers of Thor's great hammer Mjollnir and Odin's war spear Gungnir and arm ring Draupnir...The dwarfs of the Norse religion where not the lovable dwarfs given to us by J.R.R. Tolkien, Walt Disney and the Hollywood types. They where dark, sometimes evil well known for their blacksmith skills and gold smithing ability.

Richard Wagner's ring cycle is about a ring made of gold that will allow the bearer to become master of the world.In one sense, the Ring is an allegory of the power of money seen as the root of all evil. First the gold must be stolen from the Rhine maidens, then a ring is made.The gold appears in water as a glow of fire in the first act of the first opera. It glows in the water. When Baowulf is fighting Grendel the mother monster I think there is a similar reference to the glow of the treasure in the water. The ring cycle is a series of four operas in which the tale is sung. They are in order; Das Rhinegold, Die Walkure, Siegfried, and Gotterdammerung.

Joan and Company, just a note of commendation for your brave undertaking. I know I won't be able to keep up with the reading schedule but wanted to send a word about the delights of the text. Would you believe that it makes wonderful bedside reading? aside from the graphic gruesomeness of some of it, the rhythm is hypnotic and curiously lulling. Heaney's introduction is a spellbinder indeed. I've read his poetry and feel he's a kind of word-wizard. The general atmosphere is somehow reminiscent of other epics/sagas, the Kalevala and the Mabinogion, all these heroic deeds and ancient passions ...what we don't know (or I at least don't know) is how those old guys or girls arrived at their style, starting out with storyelling and evolving ino poetry. Obviously there were conventions of style but who was the first to receive this poetic gift and how did it develop?

Good luck to you all.

Row

The group of operas by Wagner that Justin mentions above is "The Ring of the Nibelung."

Ros--Hello and welcome. Please do drop in now and again. If you have the book on your bedside table and are reading it, come when you can. I look forward to any insights you may have to offer.

Barbara--Congratulations for tracking down all those ring references. Sort of puts Tolkien's Lord of the Rings in perspective for me. And your description of what it must have been like in those meadhalls of old coincides with mine. The fire, the gold, the warriors, perhaps beating time to the chanting of the poem. And the smell of mead throughout the hall.

Phyll--And you bring us those torques, necklaces of twisted metal. I suppose that the more expensive of them were made of twisted gold, perhaps alloyed with another metal.

This is a picture of a reconstructed 9th cent. Great Hall on a site that some have conjectured might be the location of a much earlier Heorot. While the 9th cent. is much later than the time of Beowulf and Heorot I imagine that this is a pretty good idea of the lay-out of a Great Hall. It looks to me as though the structures along the sides could be the mead benches referred to in Beowulf.

Great Hall

Fabulous Phyl, I hadn't pictured the mead-benches up against the sides like that wide enough to sleep on but it sure makes sense - and wonderful Justing, you know your German opera - makes me wonder if some ring myth is not also in Germanic mythology.

Phyll---What a great find! I read somewhere or other about the men sleeping in the great hall, at least some of the time. So, in addition to gulping mead and receiving rings, they bivouaced here as well. I had imagined the roof about right, but I was off on the benches and the placement of the fire, which makes sense, of course, right in the center. Early early central heating.

And I think we are close enough to the time of Beowulf to get a really good idea of Heorot.

Thanks!

I think Grendel was a monster. I found these to be interesting about Grendel. This is taken from Heaney's translation.

"It harrowed him to hear the din of the loud banquet every day in the hall, the harp being struck and the clear song of a skilled poet telling with mastery of man's beginnings........"

"He took over Heorot, haunted the glittering hall after dark, but the throne itself, the treaurer-seat, he was kept from approaching; he was the Lord's outcast."

Maryal, I was thinking the exact same thought when I read Roslyn's post. We aren't moving all that fast through the lines and it sounds as if you are right up with us, Ros. Do please stop in from time to time with your thoughts? It is both the quantity and quality of the posts this discussion that makes it so rich ~ on several different levels.

Good for you, Barb! I knew you'd find that link explaining on those rings! We don't call you our "mad researcher" for nothing! I was falling asleep over a book last night that had a picture gold bracelet from this period. When I hook up my scanner to this new computer, will bring it here to share. Will try tomorrow. I think you will be surprised.

There is just one more missing ring link... Tolkien"s Lord of the Rings and the Beowulf rings. Here are several sites on Tolkien's lectures on Beowulf and its influence on his writing of the Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien ~ Beowulf ~ Lord of the Rings
"Tolkien, a professor of English language and literature at Leeds and Oxford, taught and published on Old and Middle English literature such as Beowulf for fifty years, work that was inspired by his love of languages.

Lord of the Rings narrows ChanceÕs keen examination to focus on TolkienÕs most famous worksÑThe Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Tolkien began writing his epic during the rise of Nazi Germany, and ChanceÕs study places the epic within the context of twentieth-century history to dramatize the theme of individual singularity and otherness in the face of social and political domination by others.

The popularity of The Lord of the Rings stems from TolkienÕs celebration of the individual differences of the marginalized and disenfranchised, typified in the insignificant figure of the hobbit as Everyman. The heroic quest of Hobbit Frodo is essentially an anti-quest, Chance argues. It is the return of the One Ring to its origins and that means Frodo must use his very insignificance to outwit the Dark Powers."

I want to know about those rings that inspired Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. In the beginning, a number of rings were given out to different "tribes", for want of a better word. One of these rings was more powerful than the others and that ring is the one Frodo must get from the Dark Powers. I understand that this tale is fiction which Tolkien wrote after many many years of lecturing on Beowulf. But I'm interested in the connection, if any to the Beowulf rings.

What if I told you I found Beowulf refering to Hrothgar as "Lord of the Geats", "a ring-giver of rare magnificence...in lines 1480-86. Pretty close!

Here's a question for anyone who read the trilogy or saw the movie, Lord of the Rings. WHO is the LORD of the Rings?

I think I have found a direct Reference in Beowulf to the Lord of the Rings...in which Beowulf says of Hrothgar...

Brumie, what does a monster look like? Like an animal or a human? We know he's big...he was able to pick up 30 men and carry them off to his lair. If he's so big and so strong, WHY can't he approach that throne?

You know, I can see him in the hall that Phyll shows here ...more than I can see him settling into the one encrusted with gleaming gold that the little theatre in my mind presented ~ a "palace"! The pictures bring you to reality. I found these...but Phyll's drawings really show the detail of those mead-benches. I liked that. All the pictures I see make me realize just how rough the life was at this time. Here is another interior and exterior... Heorot must have been a real tinderbox, no?

Shield Sheafson: Maybe he was just, maybe he was wise, maybe he was kind and understanding as a ruler but no matter, he was a WARRIOR, a wrecker of mead-benches, rampaging among foes. He was a warrior to whom the clans yielded and paid tribute. He was one good king. These fellows must have raided each other just as they did the English and French in the ninth century and Byzantines in the tenth century. They were brave to sail the inland seas to reach the Dardenelles and constantinople. Their ships of war reached almost everywhere including the American continent. They traveled without benefit of compass, probably reckoning with the stars. Strong in body, and courageous in action they manned the mead-benches in readiness for the sound of the tocsin. Shield was their leader-their comrade-their fellow fighter-their king.

The side walls appear from the pictures to be an unusual post and lintel construction. We use that pattern for windows and doorways today but never for sidewalls. Our standard studs and plate construction duplicated in a two deck house and stiffened by joists is similar but not the same. There does not appear to be any stiffening agent for the side walls. The weight of the parts however, may provide some stiffing through compression but I wonder what keeps the walls from imploding. The Greek temples used the format thoughout but with stone pillars reaching to the top of the building and with tryglyphs as lintels.They also relied on compression for stiffening.The Parthenon has stood for 2500 years.The Vikings had the skill to build two decker walls using post and lintel. Very unusual. I have never seen such construction before. The lintel extends over several posts and supports a second row of posts topped by a second lintel.There is no stiffening agent that I can see. The roof is supported internally and independently.

I looked at the earlier post picture of a hall and see that there was a stiffening agent used. Half joists were provided attaching to the internal roof support system. The side wall system looks stable but still unusual.In another view of the internal structure I see evidence of two joists for the length of the building- another stiffening agent. I went off half cocked that time. Sorry about that.

Justin do you know is the construction of the mead-hall at all similar to the construction of a ship - I guess I am thinking there must be some framework for the outside and then another for the inside of a ship and wonder if that construction is what you see as a possiblity for the hall - there is a bit in the story that says not only of a steep-hulled boat but also a wood-wreathed ship. I cannot imagine them storing supplies and sitting on the very wood that is glidding through the water and so I am imagining two frameworks and I am wondering if the mead-hall was also showing evidence of two frameworks and that was how they were able to get the building so tall -

I bet the steep roof pitch is because of the snow - I wonder what the roof was make of - no talk of thatch.

And all this gold - where do you think all this gold was placed - nailed on as decorative sheets or applied as thin gold sheets like what is on Venition mirrors or maybe decorative items hanging or ends of beams having attached ornamentation. They could see the gold before they even stepped within the hall according to the story. "They marched in step, hurrying on till the timbered hall rose befroe them, radiant with gold." Do you think there was gold on the outside of the building.

Joan I think Tolkien wrote during a time when it was popular for authors to write from a metephysical basis - just as in music and art, authors were showing lovers together in the here after etc. where as even in Shakespeare's work when they died they were dead and we mourned the loss - and so I am thinking as a parallel - that the Lord in Lord of the Rings had a different, metephysical existentialist meaning where as any Lord in Beowulf would represent either a pagan view or a basic Christian view when the world was either good or bad and the bad was anything beyond understanding or that was dangerous - I'm remmbering reading how basic the Christian view was as late as the Renaissance - I will see if I can find that information again. And so I can see how Tolkein would use symbols from his many years exploring Beowulf but, my thinking is he adapted these symbols to early twentieth century metephysical thinking and writing.

My Dark Age Britain Biographical Dictionary says of Beowulf (Kingsley Amis pronounces it "Barewolf") that it was written about 1000, "It is certainly much older ... but no date can be established with certainty. It is set in Scandinavia in 5th & 6th centuries...".

How to pronounce 'Hrothgar' - "Initial 'H' before 'r' was sounded so it alliterates with 'Heorogar'." (Professor Alfred Davis W.W.Norton & Co - it's at the end of my book.)

Robert Briffault in "The Mothers" (1927) writes that Christianity was only tenuously established in Great Britain in the 10thC. "Beowulf" could have been written 400 years earlier, so everybody at that time would be hardwired into thousands of generations of Northern European Goddess culture. Whether we like it or not but I wish I didn't mind hearing these people called 'heathens'.

It was strange to find 'scyld' translated into 'shield' when every reference book of the period recognises 'Skuld/Skadi' as the leader of the triple Goddesses or Norns - the Valkyrie who gave her name to the whole of Scandinavia - & as 'The Dark Venus' Scotia, to Scotland as well. The Earthly Valkyries kept the Nordic & Icelandic temples. Most of the sacred sites were in groves of trees, so that the mason's who built the churches & cathedrals on the sites of the old temples for the new religion, built the inside with vaulted ceilings to resemble the trees of the previous incumbents - because the women didn't want anything to do with it.

The culture was matrilinial if not matriarchal. Certainly no king could marry without marrying the existing Queen. King Cnut, who usurped Ethelred, had to marry his elderly queen before his position was accepted in 1018.

Most warrior myths & legends are similar - maidens, dwarfs & rings, brave guys robbing & plundering in search of a cauldron - gold preferably.

I apologise for coming in with the archaic stuff like this, but to study Beowulf with Christianity in mind, is as useless as studying "King Lear" without regard to the Elizabethan Chain of Being.

Sources: The Mothers by Robert Brifault (Macmillan NY 1927)
Myth, Religion and Motherright by J.J.Bachofen (Princeton U.P.1967)
The White Goddess by Robert Graves (Vintage Books NY 1958)
Pagan Scandinavia by H.R.Ellis (Praeger 1967)
Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology (Hamlyn 1968)
et al

Viogert!, so happy you caught up with us! That peddling paid off!

So many thoughts you bring us to think about. I think we have agreed not to think in terms of Christianity, when it comes to the references to one God and to an afterlife in heaven...but it keeps coming out in our speech. Many of the scholars do the same...refer to the "Christian" elements, while at the same time admitting that the references do not go beyond an elementary grasp of the Old Testament. What we actually have before us is the conflict between Monotheism/Polytheism. "Paganism" or "Heathenism" implies that these people believed in no god at all...but these words DO appear throughout the poem.

And you are right, of course, there is no way of knowing what the original scops included in their tale of Beowulf's achievements. Were they early "Christians" with a simple grasp of one benevolent God, or were such references introduced to the poem much later...by a Christian monk? We have found much evidence that Christianity made an appearance much earlier than we had previously thought. So either scenario was possible...the elements could have been there in the poem from the very beginning. We just don't know. What did you think of the description of Creation? Doesn't it appear to be right out of Genesis?

Barbara, when I was reading the text that went with the great hall drawings, the author(s) suggested that the high, steep pitch allowed the smoke from the "central heating" <grin, Maryal> to rise well above the inhabitants where it was cross-vented through portals in each gable end. Pretty clever, these guys. The pitch would certainly help clear the roof from snow, as well. I don't know about the idea of thatch---I think the very early Scandinavians had lots of wood readily accessible. I have read that early Britain, also, was thickly covered with woods that have largely disappeared over the centuries. I tell you though, if I was a thatcher I sure wouldn't have wanted to be up on that very tall, very steeply pitched roof laying down thatch, thank you very much!

Justin, reading of construction practices from your knowledgable viewpoint was very interesting. The article mentioned that in this archaelogical site it appeared that the post holes had been used several time. All kinds of debris, including animal bones, were found in the holes. I think that if the very early structures hadn't had some sort of re-inforcement along the walls and roof that the builders would have learned from their mistakes and improved succeeding great halls so they wouldn't just fall down.

Voigert, I thoroughly enjoy your interpretation coming from someone who lives closer to the beginnings of all this than we "colonists" do. And I definitely agree, to study Beowulf with Christianity in mind is useless. It is strictly my own "gut" feeling that the religious references were added not by scops but by some proselytizing monastic scribe.

(isn't the Internet wonderful? You can find almost anything you want---and a lot of stuff you don't want!) Anyway, it seems to state that thatch didn't come into usage until well past the time of Heorot. I guess I would vote for a wooden roof of some sort---probably not leak-proof!!

"European thatch dates back to the middle ages, when first small, permanent villages were established. The creation of villages brought with it the need for readily available, inexpensive, and durable building materials. One of these materials was thatch, an ideal roofing material that adapted well to the shift to permanent villages. People were also able to specialize in trades at this time, bringing about the rise of skilled, professional thatchers."

I have found another drawing which shows many, many "gilded" pillars that might answer Justin's question of support for the structure and Barbara's question about where the gold was kept:

Ground Plan of Heorot Hall From the William Ellery Leonard translation (1923?), pages 145-6. at Heorot Hall

and I have gone on long enough. Sorry about that! But don't you find all of this side history fascinating? If only, we had been able to explore the Internet when I was in college!!!

Oh, Phyll...this is such a good one! Unlimited resources available on the Net and all you wonderfully motivated "researchers" in this discussion...so willing to share what you are finding with all of us. Does it get any better than this?

The "gilded" poles...do you suppose they were painted with liquid gold? Everything we read speaks of the abundance of gold, and how the king was so generous with it. Makes me wonder where it was all coming from...are these northern lands known for gold mines? Was gold a resource as was timber? Or did it all come from plunder? Just wondering aloud.

The latest drawing showing the king's "throne"... so accessible to poor Grendel, who must have been maddened by the fact that he couldn't sit on it! How do you explain this? What stopped him? He came in there every night.

Phyll, Vio, I think we have to look at the author of the only existing manuscript of the Beowulf story as the poet who composed the poem. The references to God and the Old Testament are intricate parts of the poem...in the same poetic style. It is probably a stretch to think that the copyists had the talent to insert so many elements into the fabric of the poem. The question is whether the oral tradition contained such references. They might have, they might not have. But for our examination and discussion of this manuscript, I am going to concede that the poet put the references there himself. There are different views on this, depending on which scholar you read... Perhaps we each need to decide for ourselves...

Joan rather than liqued gold I would think it was those thin, thin gold sheets that were used on the domes of cathederals and that the Venitions have used to cover so many delights especially the mirrors. Some years ago when I was still in the art world we used these thin sheets that at the time were about 6"X6" - you laid down some red oil base paint and then the trick of laying these sheets without tearing or blowing them into a wrinkle. The choice of red paint gave a luster to the gold foil.

Smoke out the roof top port holes - a fire in the center of the room - sleeping arrangements along the perimeter - sounds like our American Indian Teepee - the first mobel home or hall.

I prefer reading this without the Christian overtone accentuated - it just doesn't feel right and I have no problem with recognizing power coming from other gods. In fact learning all these myths that are woven into this poem is facinating. What I find interesting is this concept of legal booty paid when a family member or kinsman is killed - seems like we still practice this concept -

Phyll what a great site - it will take hours to read all the essays but great.

What does the poor fellow look like?

I like this artist's portrait myself:

www.jagular.com/beowulf/beowulf-skelton-2-725.jpg

Joan----Help!! How come my link won't turn into a link? I must be doing something wrong.

Maryal I think it needs the http://www.jagular.com/beowulf/beowulf-skelton-2-725.jpg

Oh my Maryal - talk about your 'big foot'!

Barbara; You are right. There is some correspondence in the construction details of Viking ships and Great Halls. Consider the ridge board of the hall roof. Is it not similar to a ships keel? Turn the hall roof upside down and you will see it more clearly. The roofing boards of the hall are overlapped as are side boards of a viking ship.( in both cases,to keep out water penetration).The rafters of the hall roof correlate well with ship's ribs and the joists supporting the sides of the hall correspond to thwarts and ships decking. Clearly, there is some correspondence between ship and hall.

The steep roof, as in New England, serves to remove snow which weighs heavilly when filled with water.

Joan---The references to the Creation story from Genesis that the poet sings in the poem are clear. What is most interesting though is the mixture of pagan legends with the story of Cain.

I'm referring to lines 104-114:

.............he had dwelt for a time
in misery among the banished monsters,
Cain's clan, whom the Creator had outlawed
and condemned as outcasts. For the killing of Abel
the Eternal Lord had exacted a price:
Cain got no good from committing that murder
because the Almighty made him anathema
and out of the curse of his exile there sprang
ogres and elves and evil phantoms
and the giants too who strove with God
time and again until He gave them their reward.

All that information about the ogres and elves and evil phantoms is not in the Bible. There is one mention of giants who lived in the days of old. A very brief mention. And they didn't strive with God.

Anyhoo, I think this connection to Cain is what protects the throne from Grendel. It is the reason given in the poem:

So Grendel waged his lonely war,
inflicting constant cruelties on the people,
atrocious hurt. He took over Heorot,
haunted the glittering hall after dark,
but the throne itself, the treasure-seat,
he was kept from approaching; he was the Lord's outcast [Cain].

The Biblical parallel here would be the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Only specially authorized people were allowed to touch the Ark and carry it. Others, not authorized, were struck dead if they touched it. On the spot.

~Maryal who is conveniently teaching the Bible this semester

Many thanks. I didn't know I needed the http too. I will try to remember this.

On line 14 there is a reference to"God". Not to one of many but to "God". So I see this as a reference to monotheism. It is either the God the Jews or the God of Christ. This is the Lord of Life, the glorious Almighty, who sends a famous son to Shields. The reference is clearly to an all powerful monotheistic deity.

Line 27 says of Shield, "He passed over into the Lord's keeping".In Psalm 23, the last line reads," I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Line 70 speakes of "God given goods". We all know Hrothgar acquired his "goods" as booty yet he attributes their source to "God"-The giver of all things.

Line 92; The Almighty makes the earth, the sun and the moon. It is a reference to Genesis.

Line 108: There is a reference to the "Eternal Lord". This is the way the French refer to the Christian God.

Lines 110 to 115: Refers to elves and ogres and to giants who strove with God. This a pagan reference to one of the creation myths that precedes Genesis. It is either Babylonian or Assyrian. The Greeks, as well, have giants in their mythology.

Most of these references including the lines on Cain, are Old Testament or Tanach references.

The image I have of Grendel is that of Blake's painting of Jupitor eating the child. I don't have a copy of it at hand to scan so you can see it. Perhaps, some one will know where to look for it on the internet.

Well that will teach me to stay away for a day or more! I had been reading here and there in the essays in my NEW copy of Beowulf, A verse Translation by Seamus Heaney this is edited by Donoghue and contains many essays on many subjects and I got stuck in the essay regarding the Name Beowulf. Will not go into that though as I want to agree with Justin that I picture Grendel as a huge monster,a giant, an "I smell the blood of an Englishman" monster from my childhood, dark and looming, hairy and bulging eyes, eating a baby, and I didnt know why. Justin brought that picture up, there is a classic picture of Jupitor by Blake like this. I must have seen it.I will try to find it.

As to the question of Christian vs Pagan I think Heaney translation emphasises the Christian bible aspect more than say F. Gummere translation does, a lots more than the other modern translation I am reading by Breeden who says "Shield had a son, child for his yard, sent by God..to comfort the people and keep them from fear." The Danes and other peoples in that region and in the Islands had gods and the original poem as sung from one kingdom to the next, one generation to the next, the name of god would probably change as it did everywhere. I haven't read the whole essay on that subject yet but will and may get some good info. I certainly am learning a lot from the introduction essay: The Old English Language and Poetry.

Before I purchased this version I had the one that has the same picture on the front as the heading above and I was sitting in Borders reading it, and drinking a cafe`a latte and a young fellow in a checkered hat came and sat at my table. We chatted a minute about the copy I had, and about the similarity in the Middle Earth and The Rings so he went and got this version for me which has all this additional critisisms in it and the Heaney translation so I bought it. I want to read the Toklein critisism soon as I finish reading the first one about the poetry crafting.

Yes Joan and Maryal, I am getting the rhythm of Heaney's and it is really better than some others I have checked out.However I didn't get it until I read a lot today about the Old English method of alliteration which is very different than say iambic pentameter, and So the translators had to work up a line variation that was similiar in modern English. It is difficult to use beautiful language with these constraints. I like Heaney. He keeps the translation as straight forward in story line as Breeden, yet it is still beautiful poetry, which Breedens is not.Gummere is beautiful but and keeps the poetry but is harder to understand. At the bookstore I picked up some translations I had not heard of before and read parts of the prologue just because that is where I have been concentrating. Definitely Heaney is the one to own. Enough I get carried away. Faith

"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among people everywhere". I wish I had read this line before or just after, college graduation. I would have had it on my desk at work during all of my working life. I had two aphorisms framed over the years.One is " Do unto others etc" and the other is "It is not enough to invent something new and useful, one must also sell the invention to upper management". This "Behavior" thing would have made a triptych.

The Cuerdale hoard, found in 1849 in a lead chest in Lancashire, consisted of a 1000 ounces of silver ingots, scrap metal, arm rings, and silver coins from various mints. It is thought to have been buried hastily by Northumbrian Danes retreating after their defeat at the battle of Tettenhall in 910. Arm and neck rings (torques) can be seen quite plainly in the hoard.

Line 32: "A ring whorled prow rode in the harbor." Dragon's heads rode on the prow of Viking ships. The dragon's neck was often ringed by an intertwined vine characteristic of Lindesfarne art work as well as the ancient Book of Kells at Trinity. It may also be seen in the Runes which resemble snakes, a symbol of wisdom.

Justin--Perhaps you have this painting by Goya in mind. Title is "Saturn Devouring His Child."

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Forum/1611/art/art.htm

You have to scroll down just a little to see the painting.

Hi, Faith---My goodness, you are doing a lot of reading. I, too, read at Borders.

Maryal

I went to that link and looked at Saturn devouring his child and that looks like what I had in my mind alright. I wonder if that is the same picture Justin meant.

I don't go to Borders that often though I should since it is so enjoyable. The one I go to has a lovely little cafe and expresso shop. And lots of college kids like the one who found the book for me that had more info. faith

Joan ever since you introduced me to Google I've been addicted - In the past I have been using yahoo but it does better with just a few words rather than this whole sentence concept - teriffic and thanks

Ok with that here is another slew of info - I have just been facinated with the mythology - I think that will be a purchase that I will be making, a source of Nordic and Germanic mythology - I just love reading this stuff - with that we have more ring and gold information -

This site came up and then I couldn't get it to come up again but it does gives another meaning to ring-lord in that the links in a chain of mail are called rings. http://www.theringlord.com/

In the middle of this long essay is this myth that confirms the matriarchal concept shared in an earlier post as well as more rings and more dwarfs working gold but now we have the added symbolism of the Sun

Freyja, beautiful and golden--a solar attribute--and that when she wept, she wept tears of gold. She craved that sun-ruled metal. When four dwarves crafted a lovely gold necklace called Brisingamen, Freyja wanted it so badly, and the dwarves wanted her so badly, that she agreed to their terms: she spent one night with each dwarf in exchange for the necklace. Loki, the Trickster demigod, learned of the bargain and told Odin, who directed him to steal the necklace. When Freyja demanded it back, Odin's terms were if she should stir up war between two mortal kings, and use her sorcery to retrieve the slain warriors, so that the fighting would continue.

Both the number four and the metal gold are symbols of wholeness and integration. This myth parallels the Aphrodite/Ishtar stories of decent to the underworld to claim a beloved, whose presence makes the Earth fertile with new life, as the Sun does.

However, the Brisingamen story marks a great difference between Freyja and the Greek Aphrodite, despite their shared love of gold, despite the fact that Aphrodite married the lame smith Hephaestos, who courted her with gold. Aphrodite has a magic girdle that makes her irresistibly attractive, but she barters nothing to anyone.

Freyja, the love goddess, barters her particular powers for those of the dwarves, exchanging magic for magic...it was a Norse belief that no knowledge, power, or awareness ever came without a price. The extremes of light and dark in the northern climate suggest other possibilities: Freyja enters the shadowy underworld of the dwarves for four nights to buy and maintain her solar powers of beauty, fertility, and the emergence of new life--in other words, to bring the Sun back to the dark world.

Freyja weeps tears of gold--the question arises of why, how and in whom pain produces gold. She has a supply of metal close at hand, but not, apparently, the means or the inclination to make a necklace herself. The fourdwarves may correspond to the four directions or the four elements. Dwarves are strongly connected to the earth element, and they were seen by the ancient Norse as ugly, brutish, cave dwelling beings, whom the light of the sun would turn to stone. Consumed by the craving for precious objects themselves, they are great craftsmen and metalsmiths. Unable to see the sun, they are driven to work the gold that is sacred to the Sun, and shines as the Sun does.

Because of her own craving for the necklace, Freyja sleeps with these underworld creatures willingly. Like many fertility deities, she is sexually active, but in other myths, she adamantly and wrathfully refuses to sleep with various giants when asked to do so by the Aesir in order to extricate them from some predicament. Clearly, even after the Vanir's surrender to the Aesir, Freyja doesn't behave according to patriarchal custom; she chooses her own lovers and bargains and doesn't appreciate suggestions to the contrary. In short she behaves like a solar goddess, with an ego and an attitude.

Modern image of Freyja

OK I just had to go on a hunt about the gold - I kinda thought liqued gold was a new modern concept - looks like Dr. Olen Maxwell born in Arkansas in 1932, is a biologist and the founder of Olen Liquid Gold.

Now there is this site showing liquid gold being used in 1541 use of liquid gold in art on liquid gold grounds and on coloured panels with liquid gold tracery, But that site was showing the earliest use of liquied gold I could find - there was a sentence on a site someplace about Iranian gold work that said they took the chips and shavings of gold and put them in oil. But again this was after the 1500s.

Funny the things that have been called liquid gold over the milleniums - olives - wine - water - amber - oil, are just a few.

Goldsmithing and the use of gold is quite ancient. I remember reading about some of it in Robby's Civilization discussion but I never made the connection. There is no site devoted just to wood-gilding although there are many texts available for sale that seem to run at least $89.

Here is some sites of the many that I thought most interesting:

Gold is rare enough to be valuable even as a token of value. But it has special properties too. It does not combine chemically with other elements to any major extent (though it will alloy with silver, platinum, and mercury); it has a beautiful appearance; and it is malleable. It can be hammered, cold, with very simple tools, into very thin sheets. Apart from anything else, this allows a skilled craftsman to apply thin gold sheets (foil, or "gold leaf") to make an ordinary object look like solid gold. Around 2000 BC, Egyptian craftsmen were producing gold leaf 1_ thick. Gold also welds to gold effectively at low pressures and temperatures: gold leaf can be cold-welded to gold leaf on the surface of an object, just with a hand tool.

Gold can be cast, embossed, inlaid, or worked as wire, foil, or leaf. Includes examples that go back the 3rd millennium B.C Russia

In this essay, archaeologists are seeking Croesus' gold. Like almost all raw gold...panned for in...rivers came mixed with silver and traces of copper...the Lydians placed the raw material in small bowl-shaped hearths in the ground and, fanning hot coals with bellows, heated it in combination with lead to remove the trace metals. Then the remaining material, mixed with common salt, was subjected to prolonged heating in earthenware vessels until the gold was completely separated from the silver.

History of leaf gilding

erre eglomis? is glass decorated with gold or silver leaf, sometimes used in combination. Although it was Jean- Baptiste Glomy, an eighteenth century Parisian picture dealer, who gave his name to the decorative process, the technique of decorating glass with engraved gold leaf was already known some fifteen hundred years before the establishment of the Roman Empire. The earliest examples of verre eglomis? decorating two bowls from a tomb at Canosa, in Italy, dating from the third century B.C., are now in the British Museum.

Roman reverse glass gilding

Yes, that's the one. Goya's "Saturn devouring Child". No cigar for me but you found it quickly enough with faulty info. You guys are alright. Isn't that an ugly image that fits Grendel? He feeds on the boys on the mead bench. The Colosus is not bad for Grendel but the dripping blood and the red lips just do it for me. That's my Grendel.

Oh what wonderful posts await me today. Thanks so much for Goya's Saturn and the mead halls beautiful and informative research. You all make this such a pleasure to read and learn .
I don't understand how one cannot interpret this without a religious connotation. It reeks of satan.

Cain gat no mirth from murder; God banished him from good.
Afar from man, for sin's sake. thence woke the monster -brood
Ettins, elves and ogres, and giants too, that warred,
So long with God, who paid them at their last fit just reward.

The God(s) have been offended !
Wickedness becomes evident now that sin has reared its ugly head. Calamity results as Grendel roams in "the dead of night." (To say nothing of what that did to Heorot's army of sleeping warriors.)

The question, to my way of thinking, is not that there is no religious background, or connotation, but that it is not Christian ("of Christ or His teachings"). And I still question when the religious references were introduced into the poem. Was it in the beginning when it was composed as a verse narrative or was it introduced by succeeding scops in their telling of the legend as the concept of a single God, monotheism, gained more of a foothold, or was it introduced by monastic scribes who finally put the long-told legend down in written form? As I said, I believe it was introduced by the scribes. Joan disagrees because she felt the "rhythm" or metre of the poem was too consistent to allow for new lines to be inserted. (Is that right, Joan?) It is definitely an epic that deals with the battle of right against wrong---the "white hats" against the "black hats", but that doesn't necessarily mean that the concept of right and wrong came from religious teachings, does it? If an individual did something to endanger the society it was wrong but if he/she did something to preserve or advance the society, it was right. In my opinion, a society could develop a sense of what is right and what is wrong out of a simple need for the survival of the society.

I don't say this well and I suspect that I am in the minority on the question of when the religious references were introduced into the epic poem, but then the varied opinions are what make this an interesting discussion, aren't they? And it is a very good discussion that I am enjoying a lot.

No, Phyll, you expressed it very well. I don't think there are "Christian" inserts within the poem, but I think that Monotheism is intricately woven into the Beowulf manuscript...so completely, that a scribe could not have done this. I will agree with you that the poet who composed this manuscript could very well have been a Christian and incorporated the expressions describing one God into his poem. My only point is that THIS version is the only one in existence, that this is the the first written piece of British literature that we have, that the Beowulf poet was the one who wrote this particular version of the poem.

I will agree with you that there is no way of knowing just when the mono/polytheistic elements were introduced into the poem. It is very possible that the first scops who sang of the prowess of Beowulf, limited the accounts to the actual events...without the religious overtones ~ as you believe. But you do see that they are here in our old surviving manuscript ~ and this is the only one that we have to talk about.

And that said, I have to add that I see more than good guys, bad guys. I see Beowulf as a good guy, but I see Grendel and one supreme God as more than that. But let's wait until we are finished...who knows, I might change my mind!

I'm at work right now and need to take care of some things...but want to add to this, with some thoughts about Hrothgar and Grendel.

Goodness, Justin! YOUR Grendel is the stuff of nightmares ...let's talk about him. YOUR Grendel is a giant, just as the Beowulf giant. He resembles a human, but much larger. And he lacks..."humanity". There are countless references to him as a demon, a devil... and then the section that Andy brings us...lumping him together with Old Testament Cain.

I'm interested to hear what you think about Grendel's inability to approach Hrothgar's throne. Earlier there were the lines which spoke of Hrothgar's powers...he would sit on the throne and "dispense God-given goods to young and old, but not common land or people's lives>"

So as powerful as Hrothgar was, he could not "kill".

But Grendel is slowly devouring his hall-warriors...and yet Hrothgar was powerless to stop him. He could not "kill".

So what is stopping Grendel from occupying the throne? If there isn't a more powerful being that he is to prevent him?

Joan---I have copied this post from earlier. You may have missed it.

Joan---The references to the Creation story from Genesis that the poet sings in the poem are clear. What is most interesting though is the mixture of pagan legends with the story of Cain.

I'm referring to lines 104-114:

.............he had dwelt for a time
in misery among the banished monsters,
Cain's clan, whom the Creator had outlawed
and condemned as outcasts. For the killing of Abel
the Eternal Lord had exacted a price:
Cain got no good from committing that murder
because the Almighty made him anathema
and out of the curse of his exile there sprang
ogres and elves and evil phantoms
and the giants too who strove with God
time and again until He gave them their reward.

All that information about the ogres and elves and evil phantoms is not in the Bible. There is one mention of giants who lived in the days of old. A very brief mention. And they didn't strive with God.

Anyhoo, I think this connection to Cain is what protects the throne from Grendel. It is the reason given in the poem:

So Grendel waged his lonely war,
inflicting constant cruelties on the people,
atrocious hurt. He took over Heorot,
haunted the glittering hall after dark,
but the throne itself, the treasure-seat,
he was kept from approaching; he was the Lord's outcast [Cain].

The Biblical parallel here would be the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Only specially authorized people were allowed to touch the Ark and carry it. Others, not authorized, were struck dead if they touched it. On the spot.

~Maryal who is conveniently teaching the Bible this semester

Ooh, thank you Maryal! I now remember seeing your post...early this morning when I first woke up (before coffee)...and all I remember was that you found Justin's Grendel/Goya and it blew me away. I saved it in SN's gallery so I could put it into the heading here, and when I click it from work, I see there is a glitch. I will fiddle with it from home where I have the programs necessary to fix it.

OK, so the ONLY reason Grendel can't approach the throne is an Old Testament reason. A God more powerful than Grendel will not allow him near the throne... do you suppose that means that God is also protecting Hrothgar?

Joan----Hmmmm. I don't think that God is so much protecting Hrothgar as He is defending the throne against the issue of Cain. The Throne is the place for the rightful King, whoever he might be.

Also once Grendel has more or less scared everyone from spending the night in Heorot, and he is after blood, there wouldn't be much purpose in his gaining access to the throne. The hall stands empty.

Maryal

...with Hrothgar curled up in the throne for protection. He needs help! What to do? Where can he turn?

Several of his powerful counselors tried to help...out of desperation

"they made offerings at pagan shrines,
Swore oaths that the killer of souls would aid them.
This was their heathenish hope
They remembered hell in their hearts.
The Almighty King of the Heavens, unknown to them

Nowhere to turn..."

Yup---I guess Hrothgar doesn't know that he is safe on that throne.

There are a number of contradictions in this poem. I've noticed the part you quote above as well as, a little later, references to Hrothgar and others thanking God --- it seems to be a real mix of paganism (polytheism) and monotheism. Sometimes the Scyldings believe in one God, sometimes they don't.

Oops! I forgot what I was going to post early this morning...before seeing that Goya/Grendel!

Barbara! What have we unleashed..."our mad researcher" on Google! Oh my! You will be up all night, every night...

I'm still trying to imagine the gold in the stark wood halls that we see in the drawings. No gold "paint" until the 15th century...Gold has always been the precious metal, hasn't it?

If you have the Seamus Heaney paperback translation, there is a photo on page 234 of Anglo-Saxon gold rings and bracelets. One of those rings looks like the one in the Lord of the Rings...they researched for that movie, I believe.

Here's another question for you, Barb as you are the one who reads into numbers...can you find any significance to the number 30...Grendel picks up thirty warriors and carries them back to his lair to feast on them...specifically 30.

The poet who was the scribe for this version of Beowulf would have been a Christian translating and writing down a story of people he considered heathens. Their gods were devils,monsters and Cain to him. As Joan said this is the only script we have to work with. The poet's duty to the accuracy of his translation was met I think. The reference to "pagan idols" line 175 through 185 is showing me, at least so far, that the scribe is trying for a true rendition of what he was hearing in the "saga" as sung in his day. fr

I thought the descriptions of the mead-halls were fascinating, but it's still not clear to me what these buildings were used for. Were they just banquet halls for socializing? Or did people live in them on a permanent basis? Those benches don't look very comfortable for sleeping on. Were the mead-halls for men only, or did women also use them?

I have not yet read Tolkein's comments in Heaney. I see, at the moment, only what you show of him, Brumie. That said, I can take issue with Tolkein with the risk of appearing ignorant abated. Tolkein tells us Grendel invades the heart of the realm-the center. Further,that Hrothgar may sit his throne only in daylight.Yet, the poem seems to indicate that Hrothgar is safe upon the throne, day and night. Grendel may not approach the throne. A superior power has restricted him and his bloody maw. If Grendel cannot reach the throne, he is limited in his depredation to the periphery of the heart of the realm. I can see that my next task is to read Tolkein's comments before I put my foot in my big mouth.

Thirty pieces of silver-the Christ price-Judas'pay in the deal. However it's a New Testament reference and we have not seen much of that yet.

Samson slew thirty men.

The house of the Lord in Kings was 30 cubits

Jesus began his public life at 30.

The children of Benjamin killed about 30 men of Israel.It's in Judges. I'm not sure where and maybe it's the reverse,ie the Isrealites killed 30 men of Benjamin. Maybe Maryal knows.

At the end of the Peloponesian War, about 400 BCE, thirty tyrants took over full power at Piraeus. Critias opposed the Thirty and they were later deposed and executed.

OK lots to say - first the only thing I can find for the #30 is that is means many and untold many like the universe was created in 7 days kind of many. I have two books now on symbolism and a third on Chinese symbolism I picked up last week - looks like I need one on nordic myths and symbolism.

Aha the 30 men sounds good to me - and a Christina monk in the years 1000 I would think would know of the wars as well as the story of Christ.

Think though I bet you can imagine the gold leafed wood beams and what ever else was gilded. Just think of the Russian domes only they used plaster to adhere the gold.

To me I see Hrothgar's throne as the center of the Sun - and that Grendel is the chaos of the world - OK where am I coming from.

First of all I think we can have a rich conversation here if those that are able to see the references to Christianity can and will share and those that see the references to the Pagan past also share. Having been educated in Roman Catholic schools where the old books of the Bible were not studied, in fact there was very little actual reading the Bible, I must confess I do not pick up on the words that match some of this venerable literature. What I do pick up is the often repeated words that upon investigation are usually tied to a Nordic myth.

I do think the monk who wrote this down slanted the story with a Christian morality - now did he write this out of his own state of mind or, own convictions or, to please the populous that would read this (only a few were capable of reading - mostly those trying to assure Christianity) or, if this was a piece of propaganda taking an old oral story and cleaning it up to give a new look to the old ways - we will never know but, I still see a variety of references here that can give us a better understanding of the past.

This site I found interesting in that it shows There are many analogies between the universal symbols and myths.

Many Symbols are Universal...the snake and the bird, and a composite (the dragon: a snake with wings), are the most universal symbols?
Among the main subjects of the different symbologies are, in the authors opinion:
- - The order (related to the solar hero)
- - The chaos (related to the monster or to the dragon, usually lunar)
- - The fight between good and evil (illustrated by the fight between the bird and the snake, or between the hero and the monster)
some coincidences between the Iliad:
- - The hero found in a basket, floating in a river
- - The hero that fights against a marine monster
- - Myths of giants
The 'Book of Enoch' reveals - the "devils" that brought the civilisation to the Humankind (these fallen angels were the fathers of the giants)...This book identifies to Azazel with the one that taught to Humankind the secrets of the work of metals, and also the study of the Heavenly Bodies.

Ok before I even found this, the concept of the throne being the center of all was because of all that gold and then learning along the way that the gold is symbolic of "wholeness and integration" said king's chair or lord's chair to me. (remember the link that told us about Freyja, beautiful and golden--a solar attribute--and that when she wept, she wept tears of gold) And so the next step as I saw it was to research sun worship.

Well along the way I find these wonders that help those that are trying to unite their understanding of the Lord in Lord of the Rings with our Beowulf's Lord. (I'll get there - to the sun worship - I follow a trail of discovery that really is enlightening and justifying our discussing both the Christian and the Pagan elements of the story.)

Seems in the Tolkien UK site there are a very few essays included. I would think they have value since they are the ones chosen - there are only 6 or 7 essays.

University Literature Class on Tolkien (My notes, as Recorded by Erik Tracy) Erik Tracy writes - This work impressed Tolk.
Volsunga Saga ->(link to the saga) Norse Saga from which the Niebelungelied was derived.
Hero ->Sigurd.
Odin ->appears in form of old man; Saruman?
Sword that is reforged
Fafnir ->dragon
A gold ring is also a common motif in the LOTR and Volsunga Saga.
Brunnhilde is a shield maiden - Eowyn
The sum of Eric's notes explains how Tolkien borrowed and used and created - and how his message is based in his experiences and values.

And in this essay By Gene Hargrove: An earlier version...was published in Mythlore...(August 1986) ...the reference to Odin does not necessarily mean that we must conclude that Tom is Odin, the allusion to medieval philosophical terminology in describing him need not be interpreted as a Christian theological crisis...before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made.

Now a step further when you look at the raw edges of the Neibelungelied there are many similarites to our Beowulf - although both Neibelungelied and Volsunga Saga were not writted down till the 12th and 13th century, they both give credit to oral tradition.

These stories were repeated from father to son for generations, In the twelfth century a poet, whose name we do not know, wrote them in verse. He called his poem the Nibelungenlied (song of the Nibelungs). It is the great national poem of the Germans. The legends told in it are the basis of Wagner's operas.

Siegfried - two princes ask him to divide our father's hoard. 'There were so many jewels that one hundred wagons could not carry them, and of ruddy gold there was even more.' Seigfied divides the treasure of the king of the Nibelungs, rewards the two sons with their father's sword. They quarrel and fight, and when he tried to separate them they made an attack on him. To save himself he slays them both. "Alberich, a mountain dwarf, dwarves, giants they seem to be cut from the same bolt who had long been guardian of the Nibelung hoard, rushed to avenge his masters; but Siegfried vanquished him and took from him his cap of darkness which made its wearer invisible and gave him the strength of twelve men. The hero then ordered Alberich to place the treasure again in the mountain cave and guard it for him."

Another story of Siegfried: "Once he slew a fierce dragon and bathed himself in its blood, and this turned the hero's skin to horn,like Grendel's skin so that no sword or spear can wound him."

With these many similarities I but see they are important elements of our Beowulf's epic.

This next site bodes well for the concept that Christianity simply augmented the old ways and the people combined them - most of the sites when I researched nordic sun worship brought me to a site about Christmas.

...A few thousand years ago many goddess oriented civilisations were destroyed by aggressive Indo-European tribes who worshipped aggressive sky gods... newer world religions were monotheist, Judaism, Islam and Christianity, with one god who was male, and took shape in the Iron Age when men dominated societies in Europe and the Middle East. Some fathers of the early Christian (qv) church even argued that women had no souls.

Saturnalia in Rome was celebrated from December 17-24, covering the solstice. December 25 was Natalis Solis Invicti, the Birth of the Unconquered Sun. Since no one knew anything about Christ's birth, it wasn't celebrated in the early church. Superimposing Christmas on existing festivals on December 25 only became official in the fourth century.and we think the oral saga of Beowulf originatied in 500 something

In Estonia's traditional folk calendar, Christmas with its simple and pagan character of the festivities, the magic and mysticism combined with the sacred and spiritual, began with St. Thomas's Day on December 21, and lasted until Epiphany on January 6. On the islands and on the coast, the holiday continued for another day until St. Canute's Day on January 7...j?ulud (Christmas) is of ancient Scandinavian origin and comes directly from the word Jul and has no real connection with Christianity. It is interesting to note that Scandinavia, along with Estonia, form the only area in present Europe where the birthday of Jesus Christ is still marked by the pre-Christian word of jul - j?ulud.

The Pagan Temple of Sweden described by Adam of Bremen, who lived between the years c. 1025 and c. 1085, and became a canon of the cathedral at Bremen, in northern Germany, under the Archbishop Adalbart.

...the superstitions of the Swedes. Those people have a famous temple called Uppsala. Near this temple is a large tree with wide extending branches, always green in winter and in summer (archaeologists have found traces of an immense yew at the temple site)...It is not far from the towns of Sigtuna and Bj?rk? (Birka, an ancient tradingpost).

Around the temple is a golden chain. It hangs over the gables of the building and sends its glitter far off to those who approach because the shrine stands on level ground with mounds all about it like a theater. In this temple, covered entirely with gold, the people worship the statues of three gods in such a way that the most powerful of them, Thor, occupies a throne in the middle of the chamber. Wotan and Frikko (Frey) have places on either side.

Wotan stands alone (as compared to other sun gods) as an evolving, honorable and aloof deity. In the mythologies of other religions, the sun god is presented as a complete, finished deity; Wotan learns and grows, and is ever striving to achieve new heights of power and wisdom. In other religions, the sun god is portrayed as being primarily concerned with enforcing the established order; Wotan is always seeking to create the new. The other sun gods present an arbitrary code of conduct to humanity and accept no questioning of its basis, or their own conduct; Wotan demands of his followers only that they be honorable - and applies this requirement to himself as well. And, perhaps most importantly, the sun gods of the other religions impose themselves upon their peoples, demanding obediance and allegiance, while Wotan stands apart and makes himself available only to those who choose his way and actively seek him out.

Woden, who was also called Odin, was the greatest of all. His name means "mighty warrior," and he was king of all the gods. Wednesday is the day named after Woden. When ships came safely into port they said it was Woden's breath that had filled their sails and wafted their vessels over the blue waters...

So the gods took sparks from the home of light and set them in the sky. Two big ones were the sun and moon and the little ones were the stars. Then the earth became warm...The time came when the people of Western Europe learned to believe in one God and were converted to Christianity, but the old stories about the gods and Valkyries and giants and heroes, who were half gods and half men, were not forgotten.

Shasta, you ask such interesting questions...it is clear that you are into this, personally involved. Where are the women? Any women? Well, Hrothgar's sister is a "balm in bed" for her Svedish husband...where is bed? Surely not in this hall?

My understanding of the nature of Heorot...it is a big mead-hall; and maybe one did sleep on them...if too much mead was consumed? It was a gathering hall, a meeting place, a throne room. But where do people sleep...were wives invited in? We will keep eyes open for more ladies...

Justin's image of Grendel is now in the resources up in the heading. You are right, the painting says it all, Justin!

I'm still trying to figure out what Grendel wants. Brumie cites the passage where we learn that he is driven with jealousy because he is excluded from the fellowship in the hall. So what does he want? He knows he can't be one of them, because he has aligned himself with Cain. He is a murderer. Is it simply that he wants to silence those in the hall? Now that he is well on the way to accomplishing that...is it enough? Where's the reward? Power? Over whom?

Is he showing the Almighty who has banished him that he can and will continue to break a basic command? And that no one can stop him? Why doesn't God stop him? Does he not have such power? Am I missing a basic message? I guess I sound like a million others who witness large-scale killing and wonder why God permits such carnage, don't I?

This is really addictive and there's so much stuff I'm supposed to be doing right now, but I do have a pressing question and would like your opinion...

The tale of Beowulf ...had a long oral tradition before it finally was recorded by the poet of the manuscript...or at least by scribes who recorded it for him. There are more than 3,000 lines here, full of alliteration and stresses...I guess what I'm saying is this. If you have ever composed a poem, or written anything of considerable length...but especially a poem such as this, wouldn't you have to be writing it down and editing to get the stress just right, and the balanced alliterations as are found in the manuscript? Could you possibly rely on your memory for such a long piece of work? Wouldn't you forget by the time you were finished? Would you really want to rely on a scribe's memory as he recorded your hard work?

Will you consider that this particular poem was composed NOT primarily for oral presentation, but rather a written composition? I'd love to hear from you...

ps. Barbara, I do want to comment on your research on "30" and "gold", but need to find more time this afternoon. Have unleashed you into the wide world of Google and don't know that I'll ever catch up with you! hahaha!

Joan, you asked me to tell something about the ring-giving in The Lord of the Rings and I'm here to give it a go. There are only two times that rings are actually given in the story: one happens far back in history when Sauron, the Dark Lord, forges the Great Rings, the Rings of Power with the help of the Elven-smiths and gives seven Rings to the Dwarves, and nine Rings to mortal Men. The Elves have made three Rings of Power for themselves and Sauron has not touched those. Sauron creates the One Ring, which gives him power over all the other Rings. As it says in this poem:

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

In this case the Rings are given so that the giver can gain power and control over those they have been given to. I wonder if the ring-giving in Beowulf has the same purpose?

The second time a ring is given in The Lord of the Rings is when Bilbo passes his magic ring -which turns out to be the One Ring-to his heir Frodo. And no Frodo is not the Lord of the Rings, only Sauron is given that title.

The question is asked if Tolkien could have been inspired to write the Lord of the Rings by his translation of Beowulf? I think that parts of the story were inspired by things in Beowulf. The Rohirrim, the Riders of Rohan, and their great golden hall at Meduseld remind me of Beowulf.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on this subject.

I do agree with you Joan that this is a masterfully written epic. The material reminds me of one of the very many sites that speaks of Tolkien's work - the bit said that Tolkien was so steeped in Norse and Germanic mythology that to try and take his work and point to one piece as the source was a foolish exercise. That Beowulf was only one of many saga's that Tolkien was intimate - with that thought in mind I see this author combining his current knowledge of Christianity and Bible references with an old oral tale. With both authors there are opportunities to enjoy a richer experience by having a passing knowledge of all the influences that can be heard or observed while reading the work.

I think we all like to picture a movie in our heads as we read a piece of literature or poem - creating that movie is more difficult when the events took place over 1000 years ago - and so again, I see this epic poem better understood by discussing, not only the form of the writting but knowing the references, of which some are pagan and some are - I would say Christian but with the many references to the old Bible which is not Christian, it would simply be during a time when the world was male dominated establishing a monolithic religion.

If you are reading this with one view of a Christian God than there would be a message that has a possible good versus evil connotation where as, to give value to the pagan references alters the story's message based on what we learn are the values of these gods. I do not think we assume gold to be symbolic of a Christian God or the Sun and yet both gold and the Sun are symbolic of the pagan gods. Rings on arms, boats, in chain mail, given by kings can have pagan meaning and yet, we see the church blessed vows often cemented with a finger ring and the Roman Pope and Bishops are marked with finger rings.

Bottom line, some time back I read that reading is a creative act. That we bring to our read our own understanding and knowledge. That is why I think a poem brings out many themes. A time honored piece of literature continues to be a source of inspiration generation after generation not because of a single view or theme but because we can get to the soul of the poet or piece by unraveling the message that is often started by some small reference that speaks to us today.

If this poet only wanted one view the one God view, to be shared he would not have included the many references to the old ways. I think he has given us a wonder that like Christmas today is tradition built on tradition. As we hang our ivy and blow horns for the New Year we may not be thinking winter soltice but we are honoring the winter's rebirth just as we are honoring the birth of Christ and today's Calendar. That was to me the remarkable aspect of Dylan Thomas' A Child's Christmas in Wales - he connected the day to antiquity and the story became more than a simple holiday in a child's life. That is what I believe this poet has done - connected the decades with the symbolism and the gods.

Joan if you spend time listening to the Old English version chanted

you can hear that it was made to be sungso was much easier to

remember from on generation to the next. Probably had been sung

or chanted for 400 years before the scribes wrote it down.I my opinion the Saga was transcribed by a group of monks ..I have no proof except I think

in a group it could have been much easier to get it right, on paper.

The translation we are working with as a poem was much harder to

do I imagine, in modern English and that is one reason it does not

scan as the old English does, not in the same rhyming way though

both versions that I am taken with Gummere and Heaney are poetry and must have been just as difficult to translate as you imagine. fr

Joan: Let's be truthful. Why does God not stop Grendel? Have you ever known God to stop evil in the world? He did not stop Cain. He (God) caused great evil and destruction himself all over the Old Testament.Did he hesitate to kill the poor fellow who tried to catch THE Covenant when it fell? The old Testament God could well be Grendel. God took the credit for Soddom and Gomorrah and approved and encouraged and commanded death and destruction to thousands over and over again. He was a jealous, wrathful, vengeful God who wreaked havoc on men women and children. His motive; to prevent idolatry. Remember, The Asyrians,and the Babylonians were God'S agents. Jeremiah said it again and again.

Ok I found the notes from another read that included knowing the Medieval Church.

The life of all people not just our monk or scribe (or as Faith suggests multiple scribes) is - religion is a way of life that governed all the people from birth to death.

The general Beliefs of the Medieval Catholic Church:

-All people are sinners who are only saved by the grace of God which is offered through the crucifixion and resurrection of his only son, Jesus Christ.
- One receives grace by participating in the seven sacraments (church rituals) of the Catholic church.

Penance, one of the sacraments, consists of contrition of heart. - confession to the priest of all of one's sins. - and the ultimate goal, the satisfaction for sins, was determined by the judgment of the priest. A confessor would - do penance - through things like prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, and after their fulfillment, the priest would say, I absolve thee and the penitent would be considered clean.

Priests began selling indulgences. A confessor could pay the priest money and he would forgive your sins. This was one of the early signs of the corruption that would eventually lead to church reform.

Ordination, another sacrament essential in maintaining an official Church Structure. However, like indulgences, money nullified this sacred ritual. The act of simony, or paying money to become a church official, led to further Church corruption.

Sexuality was seen in the context of sin and the disruption of the social order. The body was weak and imperfect.

Medieval Church considered even the act of bathing to be sinful. The only times that washing was considered acceptable, was when you were baptized or bathed in holy water to wash away sins. The nuns and monks for some reason did not consider bathing as a sinful act, but they were lucky to bath two to four times a year!

Self esteem was labeled the sin of pride

Blind obedience to authority and God was a virtue.

Because most of the common people could not read or write, they learned about Catholicism from the stained glass windows. Because the commoners could not read the Bible for themselves or verify the teachings of the clergy, the Church had great power over the development of ideas and values, and through this absolute power, the Church and itÕs practices played a vital role in the shaping of society.

Scientific investigation of the world was a sin, since the material world was the province of the devil.

The status-quo was desirable over originality, creativity, individual brain-power which were seen as overshadowed by the creativity at the beginning of time accomplished by God ex nihilo

No one, Emperors included, had inalienable or built-in "rights," against which authorities could not assert their supremacy

The church crowned the emperors, and thus actually sustained the Holy Roman Empire, considered it to be the church's secular arm, sharing responsibility for the welfare and spread of the Christian faith and duty-bound to protect the Papacy. This view of the relationship between church and state, as a single state as the civil counterpart to the One Holy Catholic Church; and a concept of hierarchical political organization that called for one ultimate head over all existing states, dates from the reign of Roman emperor Constantine I, and was generally accepted by both emperors and Popes.

Materialism, anti-authoritarianism, human rights, the idea of the individual, "the emergence of the body." All of these burst on the scene almost all of a piece during the Renaissance and 'The Great Chain of Being' would never be the same again.

Good morning, fellow adventurers!

Nellie, so happy you made it in here yesterday! You bring helpful information concerning the ring-giving in Lord of the Rings. We have been talking about Tolkien and his life-long study of the Beowulf manuscript...not to mention that he lectured at Oxford on the subject for many years. In other words, he was quite familiar with the ring-giving tradition before he wrote Lord of the Rings

So, Nellie, the original Lord of the Rings, the one who forged the rings in the first place was Sauron, the Dark Lord ot the Rings. Sauron gives away rings to all the tribes of the earth and keeps the One Ring, which gives him power over all the other Rings.

"One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

You ask:

"the Rings are given so that the giver can gain power and control over those they have been given to. I wonder if the ring-giving in Beowulf has the same purpose?"

We haven't really gotten into it, but the answer seems to be "yes". How else to explain Hrothgar's "generosity" in doling out the valuable gold rings, except to bind these men to his support. Power. The rings were created out of dark motives, and real Dark Lord hopes to retain power over all of the other ring holders. I think we are describing Grendel here. He is the Dark Lord who wants power over mortal men. The Dark Lord vs. Frodo Baggins. Grendel vs. Beowulf. I'm trying to figure what Frodo and Beowulf have in common?

Brumie brings a passage from one of Tolkien's letters~

"Grendel is an enemy who has attacked the centre of the realm, and brought into the royal hall the outer darkness, so that only in daylight can the king sit upon the throne. This is something quite different and more horrible than a 'political' invasion of equals - men of another similar realm, such as Ingelad's later assult upon Heorot."

"The overthrow of Grendel makes a good wonder-tale, because he is too strong and dangerous for any ordinary man to defeat, but it is a victory in which all men can rejoice because he was a monster, hostile to all men and to all humane fellowship and joy....." (Letters #183)

Hmmm...in Tolkien's view, it will take more than an ordinary man to overcome the monster's greed for power once and for all. Frodo? Beowulf? Any mortal man? Or is this demon to be with us for all time?

ps. I won't look at ring-giving without suspicion of the donor's motives from here on...

Red dog needs walking...back soon!

I think the important thing to keep in mind is the difference between ring-giving in Beowulf and in Tolkien's books. In the case of The Lord of the Rings, there is one ring to control many others and it does so for Dark powers. Frodo is an Everyman, not a special person at all, but a ordinary person who inherits the ring (the Big ring) from Bilbo, who found it quite by accident. According to my daughter, only beings who are already magical can actually use the ring, and they (example--Gandolf) refuse to take the Ring, knowing that they will use it for evil.

In Beowulf we have rings being given in reward for loyal service. Certainly they do bind the receiver to his lord with the expectation that he will offer more loyal service. But there is no power of good or evil attached to them.

Tolkien has taken an ancient practice and spun a larger story around it, one with hobbits and elves and dwarves as well as human beings. No doubt he got many of his ideas from his work with Beowulf, but he has also added much including a rather dark view of the power of evil.

And, whereas Frodo is an ordinary person, Beowulf is the exact opposite. He is a superb knight/thane who has a chance of defeating a monster who was capable of carrying off thirty men at a go. A better parallel would be David and Goliath in single combat.

Maryal

I'm thinking of gold and it's power to corrupt. While I do not think that Hrothgar, who appears to be our "Lord of the Rings" is a DARK LORD who will miss-use the power that is ring-giving has afforded him, I can see where he might be tempted at some time to abuse it. I see the gifts of gold given out of desire to control (look, I'm alliterating!), to gain power. I think perhaps Tolkien may have seen it this way too - both in Beowulf and in Lord of the Rings.

In yesterday's Washington Post, I came across this article ~ Al Qaeda's Road Paved With Gold , which emphasizes the power of gold to dominate...and corrupt.

We see Grendal hungry with the desire for power over the Lord of the Rings...but he doesn't want a ring, does he? Justin, yes, I do see a wrathful God in the Old Testament...but don't know that I would cast him as Grendel...I did note Hrothgar saying of Grendel:

"God can easily halt these raids and harrowing attacks."

Such a statement indicates a knowledge of the God of the Old Testament.

Barb...the description of the Medieval chuch spans a period that reaches hundreds of years after the Beowulf manuscript was put to paper. Let's not confuse early Christians, the Beowulf scribe with later Church teachings. When you find a site of interest to you and possibly to others, it might be better to include the research in a link with an accompanying brief statement describing the contents and how it relates to this discussion. I think it would help us to focus on the poem and the manuscript if we tidy up the posts to include only relevent material. A link would be fine...those interested could then click it if they want to read further from your description. OK?

Gold--or rather the desire for gold--corrupts. No doubt about that. But in Beowulf, I think we encounter stark contrasts instead of the subtleties that Tolkien introduces (not to mention the magic).

Grendel is evil and powerful. Beowulf is good--and, for a man, powerful.

Both Tokien's and the author of Beowulf present very dark worlds.

Faith--I agree with you about the oral character of this poem. I imagine that parts of it might be chanted one night around the fire, and then the next night, another part, perhaps by the same Scop, perhaps by another. We do not know, and won't ever know, because the chanting of Beowulf took place long before our anonymous poet wrote it down.

Maryal, I agree - Beowulf and Frodo are different. Frodo, everyman as you say...well, perhaps more honest than many of us? And Beowulf is a strong man...stronger than the average. Is he also a "good" man, as honest and of great integrity as is Frodo Baggins? He has finally put in an appearance and we can decide for ourselves. I find him difficult to understand so far. He doesn't seem "real" to me.

Hmmmm is a gold wedding ring exchanged as a troth to dominate...and corrupt - is the gold olympic medal awarded to dominate...and corrupt - where Egyptian Temples laden with gold to establish domination...and corruption - is the Medal of Honor or the French Legion of Honor or the Legion of Merit given to dominate...and corrupt - are Budhha statues made of gold a way to dominate...and corrupt - are all gifts of gold given by gracious or thankful authority figures a means to dominate...and corrupt.

I think anything of value can be either a token of ones heart or honor to an individual from a community or nation's heart expressed by the leadership or it can be a thing of curruption just as fire can add or subtract from our lives. Even the Bible says the Love of... meaning the 'wanting of' not the money or gold of itself. The wise men brought Jesus gold, I do not think their story is one of domination and corruption.

As to Beowulf helping another nation - why did Lancelot travel all the way to England just to join with and help King Arthur - Why do the many from all over this nation lend their skills to the people of New York after 9/11 and why did we get into Bosnia.

Grendel seems to represent some sort of evil but what is evil - certainly a bit of the unkowns that will reek harm and destruction to the order of our lives and to our very life. When evil rears its ugly head it is something we say to ourselves, 'this is not supposed to be happening...I need to change this or control this that is happening...if it is happening here then it can happen to me because I do not know the cause of this or how it will react next...this is not part of the order that allows me to enjoy life...I must stop this from ever happening again.'

Is all evil chaos or is all chaos evil...probably not but, chaos does bring the element of the unknown and evil left to its own is like a loose cannon with an orderly carrying out of distruction in question, since orrder is dependent on trust and honor. Beowulf is Trustful and honorable. So far we see no evidence that Hrothgar is a Dark Lord and he is the one giving out the rings.

During this time in history folks banded together for protection and survival - in fact the history of the Nordic culture is filled with characteristics based on their very need for protection and survival. And so, just as any of us - we look to associate ourselves with the more successful where we think we will be assured more protection and survival - thus Hrothgar's influence as a great fighter was as much sought after as a sign of success by his community of men. And as any of us today would feel priviledged to recieve recognition from President, so the Danes enjoyed the recognition of receiving gold arm rings in recognition. Also remember there was no pay - the only pay for soldiers was the booty awarded either in conquest or by the Lord.

I do not think Beowulf, Grendel or Hrothgar are about the manipulation of power and the curruption of each other or the clan.

If the desired outcome is to eliminate the monster's greed for power once and for all... then the monster no longer represents an allegory for all of our greed because, in order to eliminate all greed for power would mean we are trying to get to a point when laws are unncecessary. Heck who will be our Beowulf to stop the Enron's of today - the government is hoping to create laws but will that stop all greed for power once and for all.

Joan the description of the Medieval Church came from my notes when a small group of us was studying with Sister Anne and I used the information when we were reading the Green Knight. As I understand the information from when our group was studying, this was typical of the early medieval Church, before the church made some changes that included priests could no longer able to marry.

I was simply responding to what I had said in an earlier post that I thought I had this information and would share it when I located it. I thought it helped to better picture the world that our scibe was living.

Joan---Yes, me too. Frodo is good with a good heart. Beowulf, to this point, seems to be only an embodiment of the brave warrior, a knight who is proud of, and boasts of, his prior accomplishments.

Beowulf doesn't seem real to me either, but neither does Hrothgar or Unferth or any of the rest of them. Which leads me to wonder what values are upheld in this poem, what it was that the audience took from hearing the tale. Clearly the focus is not on personality.

Given that for many years, the purpose of literature was argued to be to instruct and to delight, there just might be some instruction going on here. Imagine being a ten year old boy and hearing the tale of Beowulf. I think my imaginary boy might want to be like him. Bravery and the code of the warrior seem to me to be all-important here.

What do the rest of you think?

Maryal

Yes Maryal - I do think bravery and a code of honor represents Beowulf and I also see him on an advanture - Beowulf is acting as an individual not by sanction of some authority and his glory seems to be in proving as an individual his strength and courage much as an olympian is today.

Last fall when I visited my daughter we attended the Scottish Highland Games in Tryon and I was amazed to see such huge brawny men as they tried to flip these huge long monster tree trunks and other types of physical games. I am not used to seeing such huge men in that men working in the outdoors here tend to be lean often long. Having seen these men at the Highland Games I remember remarking how much the establishment of our world as we know it today was dependent on just such brawn and how our modern life makes these men and their exploits seem out of a book of fairy tales.

Barbara---Now there's a good word--brawn. One that we don't use much anymore, but perfect for the poem. Beowulf is a brawny warrior who has been successful (against impossible odds) in the past. He can swim for five days and five nights, holding a sword!. That's brawn for you.

Maryal

with all of these long posts on Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I thought we were discussing Beowulf. Many years ago, when it was first published, I attempted to read Tolkien's The Hobbit and quite quickly gave up---just not my cup of tea though I normally love fantasy. Wasn't interested in even attempting to read The Lord of the Rings. But, even so, it is my understanding that, as Maryal said, these are entirely different rings with entirely different meanings. The rings (arm rings) in Beowulf were rewards, payment given by the king for good deeds, not some mystical symbol of power. He wore his riches upon his arms and broke off pieces to give to those who had served him well. Doesn't the boss still do that to this day, i.e. the Christmas bonus?

I think brawn can most certainly be used in describing Beowulf. Bravery? Yes, I suppose he had to have that as well, or was it foolhardiness? "Nothing was going to happen to him---he was a mighty warrior!" perhaps was his thinking. I am more sceptical---I see him as somewhat of a mercenary "hired" out to fight the battle and kill the monster that Hrothgar and his followers seemed unable to even meet. I imagine that Beowulf thought that if he vanquished the monster he would be rewarded handsomely and add even more lustre to his warrior fame.

Perhaps what "lessons" these epic tales were meant to convey was simply a history of the clan passed on to each generation through the telling or chanting of these poems. I wonder if the fact that Beowulf does not seem real is because he is being portrayed larger than life. More than any common listener could ever identify with.

Phyll-- How very Sane of you to bring us back to Beowulf! I never read Tolkien either, never could get going with him. And I generally don't like fantasy, so I always thought that explained it. All my information comes from the movie and my daughter who read those books over and over.

Your analogy of the "Christmas bonus" is excellent--a modern day reward just like Hrothgar handing out that gold to those who do him good service. Right you are. The means of payment has changed, but we still have the custom with us.

This is such an interesting discussion. It makes me wonder how many other Old English texts there were that have been lost. Some of them may have been quite wonderful.

Maryal

As to why the "giver of rings," Hrothgar, trusted this warrior from far away, it is explained I think by the paying of the debt incurred by Beowulfs father by Hrothgar "I healed the feud by paying: I shipped a treasure trove to the Wulfings, and Ecgtheouw acknowledged me with oaths of allegiance." so Hrothgar is expecting Beowulf to keep the pledge of alligiance to the King of the Danes, made by his father.

To me it seems as if Beowulf is the epic hero figure that is doing this for the love of adventure, and from pride and egoism and his reward is the admiration and love of his fellow warriors, not gold. Even if Tolkein wrote his modern stories with this legend in mind it is entirely different in the political meaning, and we should keep it seperate in our minds as we read this legend.Beowulf does not go for treasure, indeed he brings treasure. There is chivelry here between these warriors, in Greece called platonic love. To gain this love the hero will go to meet the monsters, as later in history they will go for the love of a lady, or in religious tales for the love of gods, but Beowulf's saga is about Warriors in a particular place in the world and a time we know little of except through these sagas. Fae

OK, Phyll, the Tolkien letters and Lof the Rings will from this day forward go into a link which you can click if interested. No more long posts! Don't want to lose a single one of you. Not one! About the gold, points well taken, Barbara. There are many occasions where gold is a gift, no strings attached. My only point there was that in a situation where a powerful lord doles out rewards of gold, to so many, there is always the possibility of ....ok, no more on the gold either.

Fae, I think it's time for your period costume photograph to get us in the mood! Do you still have it? Chivalry...to pay back a debt. And also the desire to make a name for himself, to add to his list of accomplishments.

I am hoping that when Beowulf is an old man, that I can begin to relate to his character. Actually, as a young man, full of bravado, without a thought of his own mortality, an exaggerated opinion of his own strenght, he does remind me of quite a few young men that I know.

However, I don't understand how he thinks he's prepared to take on this giant. Without a weapon! What does he know that we don't?

" God can easily halt these raids and harrowing attacks". God does not stop Grendel. (Truth is he never stops anyone from doing good or evil). Why? Is it possible God approves of Grendel and Grendel's Raids? God may have two natures-good and evil. Beowulf is one nature and Grendel the other. God could easily prevent Beowulf from destroying Grendel and his Mom. Does He? No, he does not. Perhaps, God is neutral in the affairs of men unlike the Greek Gods on Olympus. If God's motives can be eliminated from the equation then we must seek motivation in the principal players and in the players alone. I'm not sure where I am going with this but I am underway.

What effect is gained by withholding Beowulf's name....?

The plight of Hrothgar and his mead hall buddies is heightened by the delay of Beowulf's name. The problem that Beowulf faces is larger, more dangerous and therefore more challenging because others have failed to successfully address the dificulty. The reader, having first seen and completely understood the nature fo the problem before the appearance of the hero, sees Hrothgar's plight as hopeless and the Hero's actions as wonderful.

Oho! Look out! Justin is underway! Does anyone else have ideas about what Hrothgar meant when he said that God could halt the raids and attacks? Does anyone else see God as dual-natured, good and evil...or as simply disinterested? More, Justin!

Oh dear we do get into it don't we - but I too do not see God as an energy with human qualities like having druthers - in fact I simply see God as an energy, a power that we can plug into if we choose but then I see the image of God as being nothing and everything - I think we assign certain characteristics to God based on our need to survive.

When God is called on or rejected by Hrothgar or Beowulf I can see Woten as their image of God - I am remembering reading how although, there were many conversions in the eleventh century, they didn't stick and the Catholic Church really only got a foothold in the Scandinavian Countries in the late fourteenth century with a constant belligerency to Central European Christianity till they embraced the Lutheran religion as closer to their societies needs.

The concept of being tied to a central church head was an anathema to the Germanic-Scandinavian individualism and small social structure geared to inquiry, adventure, research as well as, their need to question and learn and grow with material available in their native language that allowed for individual learning and hymn singing that would instruct and bind them as a group - all skills needed to survive and explore and also the attributes of Woten. But not characteristic of a central Roman church that did not even want the Bible printed in any other language except Latin.

I can see how Woten was the perfect God for these people and now makes me wonder if God makes us or do we make God - after all, today's theology accepts that God continues to grow as the universe continues to expand.

And so if Beowulf is not calling on God for help I wonder if he is following Woten, this God who learns and grows and is ever striving to achieve new heights of power and wisdom - is always seeking to create the new - demands only that his followers be honorable rather than demanding followers accept, with no questioning of its basis, an arbitrary code of conduct to humanity - nor does Woten demand obedience and allegiance - And Woten makes himself available only to those who choose his way and actively seek him out.

I do not see how Beowulf could call on a God whose representatives are in Rome and they would prefer he, Beowulf act with obedience rather than with individualism, so much so, that there is little made available for the common unread man to learn about this God. The common man is dependent upon the priests and this is how the church was able to so thoroughly influence Medieval European society.

There are no priests at Heorot. This son of Ecgtheow, who had killed Heatholaf, owed an allegiance to Hrothgar far greater than any allegiance to the seat of power to a Roman-Catholic God.

To me the words "And may the Divine Lord in his wisdom grant the glory of victory to which ever side He sees fit." are the words the scribe is using to tell the story, rather than, the words of Beowulf, who earlier explained his five day exploits where his strength and courage, the sea-boiling and the ocean are his God. He gives the ocean credit for his survival with "The ocean lifted and laid me ashore, I landed safe on the coast of Finland."

Justin, did you notice too that Beowulf's name wasn't even mentioned back in his Geatland hometown. Yet, we all knew who was being described as the strongest man on earth, nobody like him alive..."highborn and powerful." So did everyone listening to the scop tell the tale. I do believe this is some sort of a device to rouse the listeners' anticipation.

I'm going to admit today, that little things are making me aware of the fact that Beowulf is a real person one can relate to...like when he announced that he was going over to help the Danes. We read, "Nobody tried to keep him from going., no elder denied him, dear as he was to them." So, there was something loveable about him, and then, "...instead they inspected omens and spurred his ambitions to go." In their way, they fussed over him, reassuring that the omens were favorable, before they became supportive of his desire to go.

He enlisted "14 men"...any relevant significance to this number, Barb? They sailed with all that heavy war-gear...wearing mail! I guess mail isn't all that heavy because we'll soon see Beowulf swimming wearing it!

Some outstanding alliteration that jumped at me:

"The warrior boarded the boat as captain
A canny pilot along coast and currents."

But it was this that I liked in particular from Heaney's translation and wonder how your translations handled it?...

"He announced his plan:
To sail the swan's way and seek his king."
And then ten or so lines later:
"Over the waves, with the wind behind her
and foam at her neck, she flew like a bird."

I loved that imagery. The fact that the boat flew like a bird, indicates that the distance between Beowulf's home in Geatland on the south coast of Sweden wasn't far at all from the Danish island of Zealand, which Heaney's footnote tells us is today's Sjaelland, where Hrothgar lived. Don't know whether this scanned page from my Atlas will be clear enough...we'll see in a minute:

Look how close Sweden and Denmark are to one another!

Barbara, we were posting together. I'd love to hear you and Justin discuss this. For the record, I don't think of Beowulf as a Catholic convert at all...none of them. Perhaps they have been exposed to some missionaries who introduced them to the God of the Old Testament...but Pope in Rome? No, I don't think so. The God of the Old Testament was a God, quick to anger, and greatly involved with earthlings...but He did help out those dear to him...and that is the God that I see Hrothgar refer to when he says that God could help...

Beowulf? So far there is no sign that he has met up with such a God...or is there?

But I'm off. Enjoy the day!

Joan, enjoyed your post #258. I like the last part that says "They thanked God for that easy crossing on a calm sea."

"Over the waves,with the wind behind her

and foam at her neck, she flew like a bird

until her curved prow had covered the distance."

These lines are the work of a skilled wordsmith. The wind behind the sails drives the ship with enough speed to skim the waves. The foam at her neck, the great swan's neck, indicates this speed. At night the foam at the bow is phosphoresent and it lights the water with sparkles, especially in moon light. The Viking ship looks like a swan but probably flies like a gull. "Her curved prow" emphasizes her swan appearance.

It was the end of their voyage and the Geats vaulted

over the side, out onto the sand ,

and moored their ship.There was clash of mail

and a thresh of gear.

These are lines which stir memories in me. During the War I landed on Guadalcanal in a Higgens boat. In later invasions I landed in Amphibious Tractors called Amtracs. We landed up close to shore in the Higgens boats and vaulted over the side, out onto the sand at the edge of the water. Amtracs took us up onto the sand where we vaulted over the side, out onto the sand. Little did I think at the time that Beowulf and his band did the same thing 1500 years before I did it. Lines like these are special and when we encounter them in a poem they bring the poet and his work closer to us.They connect to our lives.

that is a good post, Justin. I think that is what is so appealing about poetry, it evokes such mind pictures and emotions in us. There is a connection over the centuries between you and Beowulf, isn't there? Perhaps that is why this poem endured so many years from its beginning until now. It established a thread between each generation that heard it "sung" and then later when it was in written form and could be read. Apparently, from your memories of the South Pacific during WWII, it is still connecting. Because of your experience as a soldier you can connect with the warrior Beowulf---and I, with my experience as a mother of two sons, can connect with the young brash Beowulf who believed he was immortal and could kill any monster that he met. Different paths of connection for you and me but a connection through the ages, never-the-less.

Wow Justin - great kinetic connection and Phyll do you have a son full of bravado - I know my youngest grandson at age 7 sure fits the picture as did my youngest son. I used to smile and in my head call him Lanselot.

I just love the majesty of how I picture all this. The picture you supplied Justin of the ship plying the waters was so wonderful.

Picking up on finding the symbolism for the numbers set me scurring to my two Dictionaries of Symbolism - first let me share something I found profound.

This is only a part of the introduction to A Dictionary of Symbolism by Federico Gonzalez.

Reading this opens my eyes to this story of Beowulf and his exploits as saying something about how the early Norse people understood their life and their place in the universe. And it also suggests to me we could be missing much of the message since we have become so seperated from recongnizing and understanding the Symbols that I'm sure are raphe within this epic.

Symbol, myth and rite, the three are identical and perform exactly the same function. Myth, which of course is symbolical, manifests an exemplar deed, which, organizes the life of those who believe and trust in it. Myth constitutes their integral belief, and accordingly, institutes their trust, since, in any traditional society, myth is the very manifestation of truth at the human level.

Rites are symbols in action, and express in a direct way the beliefs and the evolution of the universe that the mythical histories also convey . These three complement and reveal the most profound secrets of life, the order of the universe, and being. They mold all of the possible images of traditional man, his identity.

Symbols in action experienced by a traditional society in which symbol as well as myth, and especially rite (which encompasses the totality of a people's daily activities) are understood as direct connection with the sacred, and not as allegory, or metaphor, not as something vague and exterior to the being. Symbols are a real sign, living signs combined and related with one another through the plurality of their significates, revealing a language or ciphered code, through which their society is united.

Symbol, like myth or rite, is the bridge between a reality that is sensible, perceptible, and recognizable at first glance, and the mystery of its authentic, concealed nature, which is its origin; the bond between the known and the unknown, between a level of reality that is ordinarily perceived and the invisible principles that have occasioned it. At the same time, this bond transforms as a direct expression of the principles, forces, and original energies of which they are the messengers.

In contemporary society symbolism is very different. Symbol is no longer known, or employed as a simple convention, or else used as a synonym for something allegorical and incomplete that would need a rational translation and logical or analytic interpretation in order to be understood. Symbols are no longer an emissary of an energy and force. Almost as the norm symbols are not even noticed, or simply ignored, as if they did not actually exist because we do not notice or consume them, or as if they had no value because they are unknown and their significatnce is ignored. Now, logically enough, they seem false and improbable, as pass?we suppose, in our ignoranceas the observation of the cycles of the moon, sun, and stars, and everything on which antiquity relied, in the "dark ages" before progress had been invented.

A society that refuses to accept symbols (except, on occasion, in their most elementary psychological aspects), as mediator between two realitiesor levels of realityis deprived of meaning and its understanding is limited to the version that makes an obscure, nearly meaningless sign something equally nonsignificant or relative. Then the world becomes a gray mass, a horizontal multiplication of undefined gestures performed in mechanical fashion saying nothing to anyone, because of the self-censorship expected by today's society. The result, everything remains outside of us, and is foreign to us. Since the symbolical path of communication has been interrupted, the separation shows us the reality of the world as external and hostile, as foreign as it is indifferent. It becomes something as cold, distant, and empty of content as ourselves. Where as the universe is perfectly integrated in the harmony of its parts. The universe is a gigantic organism, which includes ourselves in its universality.

Symbols express the totality of the possible; all things are meaningful, and reflect the unmanifested by way of the manifested. Accordingly, one must not invent symbols and myths. They are already given, they are eternal, and they reveal themselves to man-- in man. Humans symbolize the universe "in little," on a reduced scale. Civilizing, revealing, and saving heroes like Quetzalc?atl or Viracocha are not human beings who, thanks to their merits, have been deified or transformed into stars. On the contrary, they are gods or stars wholike menhave fallen from the firmament, and must traverse the lower world and die by self-sacrifice, in order to be reborn to their true identity and occupy their authentic place in heaven, which of course is their origin.

This intro goes on for another four pages but this was I thought a wonderful discovery toward our connecting with a story that may be 1500 years old.

In An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper the numbers 5; 7; 9; are telling - Beowulf not only "battled and bound five beasts" but with his friend Breca "Shoulder to shoulder, we struggled on for five nights until the...waves...cold...winds from the north...drove us apart." Beowulf 's "sward had killed nine sea-monsters" and the story begins with Unferth "sick with envy" saying Beowulf 'vied for seven nights."

Five The number of man, forming a pentagon, with outstretched arms and legs, being endless, shares the symbolism of the perfection and the power of the circle and five is a circular number as it produces itself in its last digit when raised to its powers. It symbolizes meditation, religon, the five senses, spiritual aspirations.

Its Christian symbolism is man after the Fall, points of the cross, wounds of Christ, fishes feeding the five thousand and the book of Moses.

Seven The number of the universe. Completeness, a totality. With the three of the heavens and the soul and the four of the earth and the body, it is the first number which contains both the spiritual and the temporal. It is perfections; secruity; safty; rest; plenty; reintegration; virginity and the number of the Great Mother. Seven cosmic stages, heavens, hells, major planets and metals of the planets, circles of the universe, rays of the sun, ages of man, pillars of wisdom, lunar divisions of the rainbow - The seventh ray of the sun is the path by which man passes from this world to the next. The seven-headed dragon appears in Celtic myths - the seven stars of the Great Bear are indestructible seen all year round - seven metals in Alchemy -

Then there are a whole host of Christian symbolisms to the number seven including; seven sacrements, gifts of the spirit, deadly sins, tiers of purgatory, angels of presence, devils cast out by Christ, period of fasting , joys and sorrows of Mary, seven alters of Baalam, trumpets, rams for sacrifice, the art rested on the seventh month and the dove was sent out after seven days etc.

Nine the all-poowerful triple triad, completion, fulfillment. atainment, begining and end, the whole, a celestial and angelic number, the earthly paradise. Celtic maidens and nine white stones symbolize the nine virgins attendant on Bridgit, nine is connected with the Beltane Fire rites which are attended by eighty-one men, nine at a time.

Scandinavian; Odin/Woden/Woten hung for nine days and nights on the Yggdrasil to win the secrets of wisdom for mankind. Skeldi, the northern Persephone, goddess of snow, lives in her mountain for three months and by Niord's sea for nine months. Nine is the sacred number in Scandinavian-teutonic symbolism.

Could find nothing for the number 14 - It could have been changed or have a symbolic meaning special to the Nordic people that has not been printed in anything I have available. Or it could be two times seven - two sets of the temporal and the spiritual.

I agree, fourteen is elusive. However, there are a few in the OT you might look at. Jacob serves Laban for fourteen years to purchase Rachel for his wife. That's in Genesis. In chronicles, Abijah marries fourteen wives. He had 22 sons and 16 daughters. Boy that's power. I don't understand how these old guys stood up under the pressure. Just imagine what it must have been like at supper time and in the morning before breakfast.

Lord Hygelac is an historic figure.He won at Ravenswood in 510 and was killed attacking the Frisians in 521. Trouble is I can't remember where the info came from. It might have been from Gregory of Tours. I can't be sure. Maybe from Anne Savage's Anglo Saxon Chronicles.

Line 316: "May the Almighty Father keep you and in his kindness watch over your exploits." The Almighty Father is not, in his kindness, the God of the OT. He could be the God of the second Isaiah who tried to give the Jews in captivity a more helpful God. But "kindness", I don't think he went that far. The OT God could be seen as "father". Father, in those days was absolute ruler of the family. He could sell his daughters or send his wife and/or children into slavery or even kill them if he wished and with impunity. God, the father of Jesus, the Good Shepard, is seen as a kind God. However, He was not kind to Jesus his Son whom he forsook. It is this kind of thing which makes me think, occasionally, that the monk scribes must have embelished the poem with a Christian idea or two. They would think God the Father was kind and would look over Beowulf in his exploits.

Kind - yes Justin that is what stares at me once in awhile reading this because the story isn't so much unkind as it is just raw with a powerful beauty and than there are inserted these kind words and thoughts.

Justin what does OT mean - please I am so dense about these language shortcuts.

Federico Gonzalez is so correct when he wrote, "Almost as the norm symbols are not even noticed, or simply ignored, as if they did not actually exist because we do not notice or consume them, or as if they had no value because they are unknown and their significatnce is ignored."

Putting together the Beowulf words, "sward had killed nine sea-monsters" with the symbolic interpretation that - Woten hung for nine days and nights on the Yggdrasil - I let it go and than later thought what is Yggdrasil - Well that is a story in itself -- found a beautifully illustrated site that explains it all.

There is a tradition familiar all Norse poets: namely, the tradition that depicts the entire world as a tree of prodigious dimensions - a tree on which was supported the universe. This tree whose foliage was always green was the ash tree Yggdrasil. It is the Ever Green, the axial pole of the World, the Mighty Ash, the fountain of life, eternal life and immortality. There is no distinct myth anywhere pointing to the creation of Yggdrasil. The roots of the great ash tree tied together the three tricentric levels or planes, which made up the existing world.

The 'Steed of the Redoubtable' (Odin) and the gigantic tree received its name because, they said, Odin's charger was in the habit of browsing in its foliage.

Near the root which plunged into Niflhel, the underworld, gushed forth the fountain Hvergelmir, the bubbling source of the primitive rivers, where time was measured in its laughter.

Beside the second root, which penetrated the land of giants, covered with frost and ice, flowed the fountain of Mimir, in which all wisdom dwelt and from which Odin himself desired to drink even though the price demanded for a few draughts was the loss of an eye. He even hung himself for nine nights from Yggdrasil; this act applying to a rejuvenation sacrifice symbol.

Finally under the third root of Yggdrasil - which according to one tradition was in the very heavens - was the fountain of the wisest of the Norns, Urd.

OK what are Norns and who is this wisest Norn called Urd --

The Norns were a group of supernatural beings who corresponded to the Greek Moirai; they were usually represented as three maidens who spun or wove the fate of men. (Urd was the oldest of the three - she looked constantly backwards into the past)

In Norse mythology, a personÕs fate is shaped in his moment of birth. At this crucial moment the familyÕs female protective spirits, the disir (Norns) take action.

With divine power the Norns twine the threads of destiny...The Norns allotted destiny for better and for worse. As life is in general, it is psychologically understandable that the dark aspect of the the Norns activities dominate the view on them...The expression "the judgment of the Norns" becomes equal to an unfair destiny, misery and death.

Norns have often been described as triple goddesses of fate (Wyrd) Even as late as the eleventh century the Bishop of Worms was rebuking the humble folk who still believed in the existence of the special influence of certain female spirits on their new-born children...This type of influence or gift is well known in the tale of Sleeping Beauty who had three good "fairies" visit her at birth to bestow gifts but also had one of evil intent who decreed she would prick her finger and die.

Morning, All---I'm at school and have just a second to write before the first class. Barbara--OT=Old Testament. NT=New Testament. Justin suggests that the idea of a kind God, one who would watch out for people, is more a NT idea.

I agree that the "Christian" overtones in the poem apply more to the writer than to the tale.

More later.

Can't think of a particular significance to the number 14 other than what Justin has mentioned. Of course it is twice SEVEN which is a big number in the Bible. TWELVE is another as is FORTY.

Barbara, a really good point - the belief that "a personÕs fate is shaped in his moment of birth" is so strong then, that Beowulf is convinced that he is destined to overcome Grendel. That's why he will face him "weaponless" and alone. I can understand that as he says, "fate goes ever as fate must."

Forutnately we have a professor in our midst who can shed some light on the "benevolence" of the OT God. (Old Testament) This isn't the first time that God is refered as 'generous' and 'helpful'. I remember one earlier alliteration..."God-given goods". Brumie points out another, the God who got them safely across the sea. So, you are thinking that this is the NT God being referenced, rather than the Old? Maryal? (I was posting at the same time Maryal came in before her OT class - hopefully she will address this later when she has time.)

Phyll, Justin, wonderful that you are able to relate to the poem in a personal way. Hopefully this will happen to us all before we are through. Please be sure to share when it does occur?

The image of the Higgins ships, carrying all those men and equipment to the beaches to fight large armies...and Beowulf's men with their armor and steel, ready to fight one "giant"... But the mixture of the noise, excitement and terror facing them when they reached the shore...must have been much the same.
I admit I smiled at the image of the little army, these 15 men "marching in step" when they reached shore.

They are met by "Wulfgar, a Wendel chief renowned as a warrior, well known or his wisdom and temper of mind." Now there's a mouthful of alliteration...but more than that, weren't you struck by his description? Not at all the rough warrior/lookout I was expecting. He claims never to have seen such a large assembly of strangers. Hmmm...15?

Anyway, they marched in step as Wulfgar led them to Heorot, in full gear..."boar heads" glistening on their helmets. Boar heads? hmm..

Justin, amazing that you have filed those facts away in your brain! I think it will be important that we understand what the original feud was about that forced Hygelac to seek refuge among the Danes.

Off for the day...can't wait to get in here to read your observations. I hope you are enjoying this as much as I am!

Joan, what about when the watchman on the wall saw them coming? "saw shields glittering on the gangplank and battle-equipment being unloaded he HAD to find out WHO and WHAT the arrivals were. So he rode to the shore, this horseman of Hrothgar's, and challenged them in formal terms, FLOURISHING HIS SPEAR....."

"the God who got them safely across the sea" or as Heaney translates it: "They thanked God for that easy crossing on a calm sea." I wonder if this wasn't altered by the Christian scribes and perhaps in the original verse narrative, it might have been, "They thanked the god, AEGIR (God of the sea.) for that easy crossing on a calm sea." I know that is only speculation and can never be proven but I guess my point is that it would have been so easy to change the original verses from references to various pagan gods to an OT reference for the only God.

Here is an interesting (I think) list of Norse gods and their areas of power and protection, from a pagan resource site: A Small Dictionary of Pagan Gods & Goddesses by DW Owens

I am finding it interesting to understand that this poem spans a period of cataclysmic change in the beliefs of early Anglo-Saxon people. They were gradually changing from a polytheistic into a monotheistic society. They were beginning to accept the concept of one God but still reluctant to fully let go of the idea that there were several gods that could protect differing areas of their lives. In a way, even those of us in the 21st cent. are guilty of that, aren't we? We say, "Thank, God." and at the same time knock on wood. ("What is the origin and true meaning of knock on wood or touch wood?" "To touch wood is a superstition action to ward off any evil consequences, say of untimely boasting; it can also be a charm to bring good luck. The origin is quite unknown, though some writers have pointed to pre-Christian rituals involving the spirits of sacred trees such as the oak, ash, holly or hawthorn.") Centuries old beliefs still have not completely died out.

So that we don't get too confused here, I think it's best to think of an extremely old series of stories/songs about the great hero, Beowulf, which were oral and memorized. Surely, some of these accounts may well have gone back to a time before the area was "Christianized" at all.

Even if one considers the narrator an early Christian, responsible for the apparent monotheism (with slight touches of Christianity as well), the tone of the poem is captured from the days of polytheism, short life, violent battles, the code of the warrior, the allegiance owed to one's lord. Beowulf repays a debt by arriving to defend Hrothgar and his people from the monster, Grendel.

That is, I think we need to separate the story, which comes to us in a single surviving manuscript, from the person who wrote the story down (or perhaps copied it from another manuscript now long lost) and who no doubt was aware of the Christian teaching of one God who protected his people. The original crafters of the story (who were in all probability multiple) are dealing with a culture some four centuries before the time of the manuscript.

Thus we get the mix of polytheism and monotheism that is so apparent in the poem. I don't think we need to know everything about Norse, Danish, Swedish mythologies to read Beowulf.

Getting back to the poem, do any of you find Beowulf's boasts somewhat distasteful?

He does go on and on about his prior achievements.

~Maryal

Phyll--I just read your post, and I agree. The poem shows one culture layered upon another. Certainly all people are reluctant to give up what they have long believed in--multiple gods--for a new religion with only one. So we get a kind of blend going on.

Getting away from religion for a minute and thinking only about secular culture, you see the same phenomenon in the behavior of people who are recent immigrants to a country. They bring with them some of their homeland--and may retain parts of it for a long time--even as they adopt the ways of their new land.

~Maryal

Brumie--Thank you for those paragraphs from Tolkien's essay! I went through them very slowly and it seems the points he makes are excellent. He is working close to the poem, examining the problems of inconsistency of belief which have been noted and giving us some possible interpretations.

I understand your problems with not having Old English letters on your computer. And Tolkien was of a generation who assumed that of course the readers of his essay would be able to read the lines he refers to in Old English! Now, critics seem to always quote the lines in the original and provide a translation.

Again, thanks. I'm going to go back and reread.

Maryal

Joan; Higgins boats carried 15 to 20 men and often less depending on gear. They could approach the waters edge but with difficulty. The men jumped out over the gunnels. Amtracs Carried a similar number of men up onto the beach where one vaulted out over the side. The image one should get from this is not that of a large ship carrying many men. The boat is a small boat. Viking vessels were much larger with low draft so they were able to come to the water's edge as well. You probably have in mind images of Normandy Beach where much larger vessels and many more men were involved. The beaches I referred to were almost all on atolls in the South Pacific. Atolls are small islands in the midst of a lagoon and rarely exceed a few miles in breadth and length. Guadalcanal was much larger than that of course but not so much larger as to change the image. I am telling you this because I think it will improve your appreciation of the connection.The number of men landing, the landing itself, the armed readiness,the unloading of gear, the vaulting onto the sand-it's all there.It was a wonderful connection.

Justin---Very interesing parallels there that you present. Just about the same number of men and the same problem getting over those gunnels with all the necessary gear. I didn't have any idea how many men these boats carried. It makes sense though, that any boat intended for landing rather than anchoring and sending a small boat to shore, would have to be on the small side. Sorry for the nontechnical language. I know what I'm trying to say but not at all sure of the proper words.

Would the poem, without a Christian line or two, be just as effective.Consider dropping the second half of line 316, all of 317 and half of 318. The parting lines would then read:

"It is time for me to go. I'm away to the sea,

Back on alert against enemy raiders."

The character of the parting remains and the location of the stresses, which seem hard to find in modern English, appear to be undisturbed. We lose a small alliteration in "keep and kindness". The new construction is more consistent. The coast-guard is talking about his intent. We must interupt his thought to insert "May the Almighty..." and then return to his thought with "I'm away to the sea..." It appears to be an awkward insertion. I see this as more evidence that some Christian scribe built-up some lines and added others to improve the Christian flavor of the poem.

Justin, the Higgins boats were of wood too, weren't they? ... Higgins I know that the new D Day museum in New Orleans features a Higgins, if you are ever down that way.

Did you march in step, once you reached shore, Justin?

Back in a sec. Just in after spending the day with ailing granddaughter. Hate to see a 6 month old so sick! Need to catch up on what all is going on before I can spend time examining the Tolkien letter...and consider the "Christian insertions", But must quickly add...this is the precious document, the oldest we have..."insertions" and all...

Tolkien, in one of his lectures at Oxford, had an interesting observation about this subject....

Joan: Sorry, marching in step not feasible in light of enemy action. Yes, Higgins boats were made of wood. Amtracs were made of steel. I have been told that New Orleans is doing some nice things for all the "D" Days other than Normandy.

Good morning!

I just spent some time with the Tolkien passage Brumie brought here yesterday. I gather that the lines Tolkien referred to as possibly being an insertion was this, (as quoted by Heaney):

"...The Almighty Judge
of good deeds and bad, the Lord God
Head of the Heavens and High King of the World,
was unkinown to them."

In his famous essay, The Monsters and the Critics, Tolkien states, "These lines are important and present certain difficulties... If it is original, the poet must have intended a distinction between the wise Hrothgar, who certainly knew of and often thanked God, and a certain party of the pagan Danes - heathen priests, for instance, and those that had recourse to them under the temptation of calamity , it is perhaps possible to say that they did not know, nor even know of, the one God, nor know how to worship him. ... But it is open to doubt whether lines l8l-88 are original, or at any rate unaltered. Not of course because of the apparent discrepancy - though it is a matter vital to the whole poem: we cannot dismiss lines simply because they offer difficulty of such a kind. But because, unless my ear and judgement are wholly at fault, they have a ring and measure unlike their context, and indeed unlike that of the poem as a whole. I suspect that the second half of line l80 has been altered, while what follows has remodelled or replaced a probably shorter passage, making the comment (one would say, guided by the poem as a whole) that they forsook God under tribulation, and incurred the danger of hell-fire.
...references to the Almighty the legendary Danes and the Scylding court are depicted as 'Christian'. If that is so, the mention of heathen peaw is, of course, odd; but if offers only one (if a marked) example of a confusion of thought fundamental to the poem, and does not then merit long consideration.

He could hardly have been less aware than we that in history (in England and in other lands), and in Scripture, people could depart from the one God to other service in time of trial - precisely because that God has never guaranteed to His servants immunity from temporal calamity, before or after prayer. It is to idols that men turned (and turn) for quick and literal answers."

These are the only lines that Tolkien expects "insertion" by anyone other than the Beowulf poet, but I suppose, Phyll, Justin, that if it happened once, it could have happened at other times. It's just that Tolkien detected no other.

Thanks, Brumie!

Back soon...granddaughter better this morning, but son now ailing and has asked that I come and care for baby while he sleeps...

Later!

My grand babies are here for the rest of the week so I will be delinquent. I've just read the last 46 posts and have lots of questions. I must find time to catch up at night. (If I can still sit up after the babies sleep-- they tire me out.)

Alf, give those precious little ones all the time and attention...and energy they require...and we will be waiting for your always thought-provoking questions when you "are back".

Maryal asked an interesting question yesterday...

Do any of you find Beowulf's boasts somewhat distasteful?
He does go on and on about his prior achievements.

I am trying to put myself into the shoes of those who listened to his boasts...I think they love to hear him go on...it inspires confidence in his ability to protect them. They NEED to hear how powerful he is.

Pesrsonally, I found him self-righteous...and judgmental. Look at the way he put Unferth down in public. And Breca too! First he says that he and Breca were childhood pals...that the swim contest was just that, a friendly contest between friends. But then he goes on to say to Unferth (in public) of Breca,
"I don't boast when I say that neither you nor Breca were ever much celebrated for swordsmanship or of facing danger on the field of battle."

... I guess it was important that Beowulf defend his reputation as "best man alive"...at any expense! Did his boasts affect you?

I thought Beowulf needed to boast and sing of his exploits to the group at dinner so he could build his confidence up. When he tells them that Unferth could not "stay" Grendel and therefore Grendel was not afraid of the Danes it seemed a little outragous, as if Unferth were responsible for the whole group at Herot"he knows he can trample down you Danes to his hearts content" but now B. brags, he has to contend with me...!

What do I think of the women? You mean the woman? the good folk wife of the king, who does nothing but pass the beer and warm the bed for the king. . . nice job if you can get it. Fae

Haven't read Talkien although it is here on my pile to must reads - be back after I've read Talkien and can engage in this discussion. Don't like only using others documents on the internet to see what the man had to say.

To us Beowulf's speech to Hrothgar smacks of self-congratulation and inflated ego. But within the cosmos of the tale he is merely stating the facts as they are, not lies, not even exaggeration. He is applying for permission to perform a deed, and therefore states his qualifications with self-confidence. In our day we accept this sort of thing in another context. Think of writing a resum? when applying for a key job. Wouldn't we give a factual description of our talents and relevant experience? And I agree, Joan, that Beowulf's words also serve to "...inspire confidence in his ability to protect them..." among his followers.

The coast...I had to smile at lines 222-3 "...sunlit cliffs, sheer crags/ and looming headlands...". As the Norwegian commentator Bringsv3⁄4rd points out, it's pretty obvious that the 11th century poet lacked first-hand experience of the coast of Denmark. It's all broad sandy beaches and low dunes.

In order to maintain his assurance to the king, and the rest in the mead hall, that he had the strength and ability to kill this monster that was ruining their lives, Beowulf had to immediately, on the spot, squelch any slur that Unferth might try to cast on his reputation. He could not allow the slightest doubt to enter the mind of the king that he could do what he claimed if he was going to be given the "job" (and of course, the rewards when the job was successfully finished).

"From where he crouched at the king's feet, Unferth, a son of Ecglaf's, spoke contrary words."

I think that from his position at the king's feet, Unferth enjoys a privileged status in the mead hall and would have the attention of the king more than others who didn't sit in such an honored place. Then this stranger barges in with claims that he could do what no one else, including Unferth, had been able to do for many years. He was immediately accepted by the king. It seems that Unferth's own green-eyed monster reared its head. His attempt to discredit Beowulf stemmed from jealously and an ale loosened tongue.

The Scop chants on that our strong, Geat hero & his mighty ban of warriors sail to the Danish shores but is stopped by the Coast Guard.
The Coast Guard?

O'er earth a mightier jarlman, then is one of you-
That Hero in his harness, yon man in weapons dight
He is no mere retainer, if tells his face aright.

What the heck is a jarlman?

Ole B. had on a harness ? Of what? Weapons?

Dight?

"Fain (what the heck is Fain, I keep seeing that?) will I ask the Danes' friend, the Lord of all Scyldings
As to the boon I beggest,- will ask the breaker of rings (?)
My ever glorious Souvran, (?) touching this thy quest
And quickly fetch such answer as he, the good, deems best."

I would be most appreciative if someone would enlighten me of these 3 points in red.

Fain means happily, joyfully,willing, gladly. It appears also in Macbeth. It is not used much anymore.

Dight means appoint, order assign, arrange,dictate, compose. Dight is also a variation of dite which means small amount, bit.

Thanks, Justin! We'll know whom to ask the next time Andy brings such questions. Which translation are you reading, please tell again, ALF? In some ways I appreciate Heaney's forthright, easy to understand translation, but there are times, like when I read your excerpts, that I realize that the others are so much closer to directly translating the manuscript. Re the "Coast Guard", Heaney refers to him as the "watchman on the wall, whose job it was to guard the seacliffs for raiders."

Carolyn, I was wondering at those "seacliffs"...how any boat was able to land, Higgins or otherwise on this rugged coast. Sandy beaches and low dunes. Hmmm...sounds like an ideal summer vacation spot! Is it today? What are the summer temps in Denmark though? Can you work on your tan? Surf?

The "Coast Guard" turns out to be "Wulfgar, the Wendel chief, well known for his wisdom and the temper of his mind." Nice alliteration. The alliteration in this poem always seems to enhance the meaning or description, rather than merely provide pleasing sounds, doesn't it? This Wendel chief brings to mind another modern day Wendell with these same attributes...

So, Andy, here is Heaney's translation of the two passages you site...hopefully this will help you with some of the vocabulary you question...

"Nor have I seen
a mightier man-at-arms on this earth
than the one standing here; unless I am mistaken,
he is truly noble. This is no mere
hanger-on in a hero's armor."

"I will take this message,
in accordance with your wish, to our noble king,
our dear lord, friend of the Danes,
the giver of rings."

Your red questions..."Souvran"=lord=sovereign"

"breaker of rings"=ring giver. Perhaps it is the breaking off of rings from a number of bound rings, either on a bracelet or from gold rings of mail...

So many good points...am expecting sick baby to spend the day here at grandma's - will look for time when she is sleeping to comment! You are such founts of information and observation! Love it!

Phyll ~ Unferth started it didn't he...lounging at the king's feet, envious of all the attention Beowulf is getting...

However, B. still lacks the modesty I like to see in my heroes, but you are right about Beowulf's need to respond immediately if he is to get his request. Methinks Unferth could be a problem for Beowulf down the road. His jealousy will only be piqued at Beowulf's success.

Faith, I like your thought...that Beowulf is trying to build his own confidence with his boasts...and Carolyn's analogy to a resume...maybe we all look better on paper when we list our accomplishments.

Which brings us back to the question...what is the job Beowulf is after? Or rather, WHY does he want to apply for this job at all?

1. to settle his father's debt

2. to pick up some bounty money

3. to build his own reputation

4. All three?

I suspect that he really wants to build his own reputation and have news of his feats spread beyond Geatland. But where does he get the confidence that he can overcome this man-eating monster, unarmed? What does he know about Grendel that others don't know?

The little one sleeps...will try to get in a final comment on yesterday's posts before the day is over. I go to work on Saturday's ...so I'll finally get some rest!

Fae, don't knock the good Queen's role! Besides observing the courtesies, her job is harder than it may appear at first!

There is an essay included in the Seamus Heaney paperback edition ~ The Structural Unity of Beowulf in which the queen's role as we see her in Beowulf is described. Will just include the highlights here to make the point:

The role of woman in Beowulf primarily depends upon "peacemaking", either biologically through her marital ties with foreign kings or mother of sons, or socially and psychologially as a cup-passing and peace-weaving queen within a hall.

Woman funcions domestically within the nation as a cup-passer during hall festivities of peace and joy after battle or contest.

The mead-sharing ritual and cup-passer herself come to symbolize peace-weaving and peace because they strengthen the societal and familial bonds between lord and retainers.

As she passes the cup from warrior to warrior she weaves an invisible web of peace; the order in which each man is served, according to his social position, reveals each man's dependence upon and responsibility toward another."

This is an important role; she cannot afford any breaches protocol ~the results could be disastrous. Watch her closely as she moves through Hrothgar's court...

Off for the evening!
Later!
Joan

A modest hero is preferred in contemporary society. He is the doer who lets others say he is a hero and tell about his exploits. In movies we see the hero doing things. Not talking about it nor is there someone character who praises the hero. James Bond is a modest guy but no less the hero than Beowulf. Both engage in exploits well beyond the capability of ordinary humans. But movies are not the written word. In novels, The hero does things of heroic measure but there is always a counterpart, a character who can be counted on to contrast the hero's action or a character who will describe the action after the event. These devices are all designed to preserve the modest dignity of the hero who is embarassed by praise. I suppose, Beowulf could have employed a lictor to tell of his powers but I don't think that would be as effective as Beowulf telling of his own role. Hrothgar, himself does a little of the telling when he describes his earlier contact with Beowulf and his father and the report of embassies to Geatland. I think, on the one hand he wants to engender confidence in Hrothgar so that Hrothgar will give him the privilege of engaging this mean fellow Grendel. I think Beowulf needs no confidence building himself. He has proven feats which none who know him can deny. The tale of his talents has a purpose. It is designed to achieve an end and though it is not my style it is appropriate in the setting.

I have looked for measured lines and have not found any in Heaney's modern language version. I wondered that we call it poetry and not narative and not prose. It has the line by line format of poetry but not the intricate structure of the work of Shelley or of Byron or of Coleridge. Wordsworth's work is much looser but not of the free formation of Beowulf's lines. I thought perhaps this loose structure was due to translation until I read Tolkien. He say's, in old English meter there is not single rhythmic pattern progressing from the beginning of a line to the end, and repeated with variation in other lines. I must learn to not seek pattern other than alliteration in order to find pleasure in reading Beowulf.

That last post of yours Justin echo 's my thoughts regarding the so called "poetry" of the Epic Beowulf. When I listen to the reading of the Old English I do hear a certain rhythem and also think I hear rhymes. But perhaps it is just that he is chanting and since I do not know what he is saying I think it is more like poetry. But of course it isn't as several of the essays I have read in the Book edited by Donoghue that I bought, state.

Joan I do thank you for the lesson on wifely duties and virtues. I needed to know that, still I say, it is a nice job if you can get it. (Looks like I did get the job !!)Fae

Tolkien's criticism quoted several other critics--some who considered Beowulf a historical document and some who regarded it as a literary document. Tolkien, however, seemed to reach the conclusion that "Beowulf is in fact so interesting as poetry, in places poetry so powerful, that this quite overshadows the historical content, ........" I agree that the Heaney translation does not have the measured lines we expect in traditional poetry but when I listen to Beowulf as it is read in Old English, I feel a distinct poetical rhythm, even though I haven't the slightest idea of what the words are telling me!

I think one of the enduring qualities of Beowulf is that each reader gathers from it what his main interests are. I seem to be more drawn to it as a historical document but, also, as a sociological study with parallels to the present. In other words, it interests me that societal and individual behavior of that time is so familiar to me because I see the same behavior patterns now. "The more things change, the more they remain the same." Some of you are interested in the poetry of it. Some are interested in the religious references. It means many things to many people. Perhaps that is why it has been translated, studied, critiqued and taught for so long.

Full of brado, indeed he is ,as he describes to the welcoming Hrothgar his "famous handgrip" and his threat that they will "contend for life, a loather 'gainst a loather." It sure sounds MALE to me. LOL. He is resigned to whatever the "fates" allot him, isn't he?

I attempted to catch up this week and do not remeember anyone discussing the "Wylfings" . I ask only: Was Hrothar insinuating that Ecgtheow was responsible for the awakening of the feuds?

Is christianity essential to the theme. Can the poem stand without it and be just as effective? The last time I dealt with this issue was at lines 316-18 where the Christian blessing added nothing to the effectiveness of the message and in truth it interfered with it because it interupted the Coast Guard's message. I now see another opportunity at line 440. "Which ever one death fells must judge it a just judgment by God." If this line is dropped,we get "... a life and death fight with the fiend. If grendel wins it will be a gruesome day;" Again the christian reference is entered mid-thought. If this continues, we may have made a case. I know that Tolkien says he looked at the only suspect example and found it "insertable". But we come to the question as newcomers without prior baggage and therefore may see things that Tolkien over looked or ignored because he was so close to the poem. Is that arrogance? Maybe, but it happens in the best of families. Why not ours?

What do you think of Hrothgar's wife? I think she is warm number. Any lady who can keep the pecking order straight, keep the beer and mead flowing and at the same time keep her husband warm, is doing a full time job. She may be the only one in the bunch with her head sewn straight. Until the appearnce of Beowulf she was the only one able to successfully do her job. Hrothgar and his thanes could not cope with Grendel.

Beowulf may not get the chance to fight Grendel unless Hrothgar says, ok, be my champion. But if he fights, regardless of who wins, the outcome was predetermined. There are mixed signals here. Beowulf, if given the chance has a choice. He may fight or not. But if he fights the outcome is already decided. Fate goes ever as fate must.

Line 476; "My household guard are on the wane, fate sweeps them away into Grendel's clutches. But God can easily halt these raids... Here we have an example of fate acting on the guards while at the same time the poet says that God can interupt fate and what has been predetermined, altered.These are mixed signals again.

Poetry comes in many kinds, and while I'll agree that Heaney's translation of Beowulf does not rhyme, it does for the most part maintain the four stress line of the original.

Some of you have already noted that listening to the Old English makes it sound more like poetry. That may be, but I think a lot depends on the skill of the reader and the foreignness of the language.

I think some of the problem with hearing the poetry here is that we are so used to the iambic pentameter line: u/ u/ u/ u/ u/ (unstressed, stressed, unstressed, stressed...and so forth). Such a line goes da DAH da DAH da DAH da DAH da DAH. Of course, many times this basic pattern is altered, but the main rhythm returns. Most of us are attuned to hearing FIVE stresses in a line, not four.

In Beowulf, the original has three poetic qualities:

~There are four main stresses to a line
~There is a strong pause in the middle of the line
~The pattern of alliteration where the third stressed word or syllable always alliterates with the first or second stressed word or syllable.

Heaney generally holds to the four stresses in each line, and he also uses strong alliteration. The one aspect of the original that he drops is that strong pause in the middle of the line.

I'm off for the day and most likely tomorrow. Unexpected out-of-town old friend is here. Keep up the conversation.

Maryal

Maryal: My electronic reading does rhyme. Listen to this Unferth character challenging Beowulf.

Seven nights ye swinked. He outstripped in stroke!
Had the more of might, he! Him, when morrow broke,
Surf upcast by Heathoreams. He sought his home therewith,
He, beloved of clansmen' sought dear Bronding-kith,
And his own fair stronghold, where he had a folk,
Had a town and treasures. All his vaunt 'gainst thee
Did the son of Beanstan fulfil faithfully!
Beowulf answers:

Thus we twain together five nights upon the wave,
Till surge and weltering waters us both asunder drave; Sure sounds like a rhyme.
The coldest of all weathers, dark night and northernblast
Blew battle-grim against us; fierce were the floods we passed.

What's with this Unferth, the ugly? Why is he challenging Beowulf?

I love it when B. tells him that if Unferth were as good as he claimed to be "Grendel would never have wrought such slaughter at Heorot."

RE ? #5:

My electronic text tells me that Unferth means "Un-peace' and that Hrothgar's advisor was at once jealous of the bold Beowulf. My notes say that the name Unferth means "folly or strife"- neither of which truly depicts his character.
I am in hopes that before the story ends he will be Beowulf's right hand man.

Is it mentioned WHY he slew his brother? I can't pinpoint it. Is this a take off on the story of Cain/Abel?

"though thour forsooth thy brothers, thy kin-of-heart, didst kill!
Whence curse of hell awaits thee, though good thy wit may be."

Maybe Unferth should lay off the mead before Beowulf proves his prowress.

? # 6

The swimming contest was a challenge between Breca and Beowulf when they were young lads.

B's account of his loss was due to the fact that he was attacked by sea nicors, nine of which he slew before he was "sea cast up onto the land of Finn-men."

Maryal has explained that the poetry of the Beowulf manuscript is without rhyming, but there is definite stress and alternate alliteration going on within the lines. I'll take her word for it, since I haven't read the Old English, but Faith hears it, even when she doesn't know what the words mean. Phyll, I think you can hear it too?

The difficulty comes because the rhyme scheme is different than we expect...the unstressed syllables are more than we are accustomed to, so we don't detect it when reading it for ourselves. There's also that "rest" within each line. The alliteration is detectable though.

The poet who translated your version, Andy, chose to make the lines rhyme. I guess s/he thought it would read more like poetry if the rhyme was present...so you are not experiencing what those reading Heaney's translation are noting.

Heaney has stated that he has attempted to stress four/eight syllables and to alliterate in half of each line when he could, but refuses to do so if it doesn't work well in the translation. In other words, he won't alliterate for the sake of alliteration.

So I think that it is difficult to hear the rhythm in Heaney's translation for the same reason it is difficult to hear it when reading the original manuscript. He's attempting the rhythm of the original manuscript and those unstressed syallables are throwing us off...

"But we come to the question as newcomers without prior baggage and therefore may see things that Tolkien over looked or ignored because he was so close to the poem. Is that arrogance? Maybe, but it happens in the best of families. Why not ours?"

I'm with you, Justin! Just because I SOMETIMES bring up what some of the major scholars have observed in their studies of the poem, it doesn't mean that I disagree with your approach! We are in the driver's seat here...no "teacher" to please with the correct answer, and a wealth of life experience to bring to the discussion.

ARROGANCE! YES! LET'S!

Andy, that's a verrry interesting question you bring up about Unferth! Here's how Heaney translated that, which sounds pretty much the same as what you are seeing:

"that neither you nor Breca were ever much
celebrated for swordsmanship
or for facing danger on the field of battle.
You have killed your kith and kin,
So for all your cleverness and quick tongue,
you will suffer damnation in the depths of hell.

The fact is, Unferth, if you were truly
as keen or courageous as you claim to be
Grendel would never have got away with such unchecked atrocity..."

I never considered that Unferth may have been a "murderer", but rather that because he failed to stop Grendel, he in fact, was responsible for the deaths of Hrothgar's men at Grendel's hands. I'm wondering now if the rest of you took it that way?

I also find it interesting that you are hoping that before the story ends he will be Beowulf's right hand man. I look at him as a man consumed with envy and that this will only grow when Beowulf succeeds where he has failed. (Un-ferth=unpeace)...methinks he will cause some disruption in the future.

this really charming story board telling of Beowulf by a sixth grade class. Amazing how children can get right to the meat of a story. <grin> Unfortunately, your hopes for the reformation of Unferth appear to be doomed.

Kamishibai and Beowulf by Mrs. Lee's Sixth Grade Class

Phyl: those pictures are delightful! I enjoyed them so much. Thank you for providing the link. Imagine! 6th grade kids drawing and thinking like that.

That Beowulf was some swimmer! He swam seven days wearing chain mail and carrying a sword. He needed the sword because he killed nine sea-monsters. The children who illustrated Beowulf probably appreciated him better than I do. They wouldn't have been bothered with all these nit-picking details that bother me -- like swimming with a sword and a mail-shirt.

Mrs. Lee's sixth graders and their interpetation of Beowulf are wonderful.I was so pleased with that link. I love Grendel,through their eyes. Slimy with rats all over him, heheheh. I may be a sixth grader who knows. Faith

Shasta, wasn't Beowulf well-prepared for those sea-monsters, though? So why isn't he wearing his mail, carrying his sword, armor, shield, spear ~ to go up against Grendel? What's he thinking?

Good for Mrs. Lee for exposing her sixth grade to Beowulf! Their expressive artwork gives Goya a run for his money, doesn't it, Justin? I'm serious, this is good stuff! Look at bloodthirsty Grendel as he approaches Heorot...is he smiling?

I stopped short when reading that Grendel was "joyless" as he approached his prospects in the hall. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this to help me sort out my own...

Grendl is "joyless" as he is the epitome of the dark side of life. He's amoral, corrupt and heinous. He hates the merriment and jovial interchange between the men. He feeds on his abhorance of their comraderie and their delight. He represents the depraved, vicious corruption in the world; the flip side of benevolence between men.

Well Grendel is pure evil that is for sure but he could be smiling without joy but with anticipation of a good meal. I have wondered deeply about the significance of fighting barehanded. What does it prove. Is it because Grendel has a magic way to render usless the swords anyway so Beowulf just fights with his strength that comes from being "on the side of God" (my paraphrase).Fae

Personally, I think Beowulf was a little too sure of himself when he decided to fight Grendel without weapons. He said since Grendel himself used no weapons, he wanted it to be a fair fight. But he's forgetting that Grendel carried off 30 men the last time he came around. And as it turned out, he let Grendel get away and go limping back to his mere to die. Of course, he tore off his arm and nailed it to the roof as a war souvenir, but after all that bragging, why did he let him get away?

Grendel's approach is joyless. Why? He first approaches the grounds of Hrothgars dwelling. There he is spurned by Hall-defenders making him joyless. He journeys ahead to the bawn and enters where he finds many men sleeping, ripe for ravishing. His glee is demonic.

It is interesting that he is spurned at Hrothgar's house by hall defenders. That had never happened before. Why now? Most of Hrothgar's guards are asleep. One is alert. Is it this one lone guard who spurns Grendel as he advances toward the Hall? Who is this alert guard? Is it Beowulf? Beowulf is in bed in Hall though keenly watching. It is from bed he gets an armlock on Grendel. Who is this outside guard. If it's Beowulf the sequence is badly formed. Grendel advances, an alert guard spurns him, grendel moves on to the hall where he feasts on a sleeper before Beowulf,who lies in bed,gets a grip on his arm and shoulder.

Does "joyless" suggest this murdering monster is capable of emotion? That he is more than a ravenous reptile seeking yet another meaty morsel in the hall? He's been spurned, yes, that's what made him attack in the first place...but why does he continue? Certainly he is not finding it gratifying or he would be "joyful?" What of today's terrorists, killing to satisfy some desire for revenge? Are they "joyful" when they are successful? Is man ever happy when he sins against humanity?

Justin, I was under the impression that Beowulf is the guard...

"Hrothgar: Never have I entrusted or given control
of the Danes's hall to anyone but you.

Ward, and guard it..."
"The King of Glory had posted a lookout who was a match for Grendel."

I'd just assumed there was only one such person. Just can't figure out why Beowulf decided to remove his duds and bed down when he knows Grendel is on his way...

Faith, I was thinking about what you said about Grendel's magic spell rendering weapons useless. Did Beowulf know about this magic? I went back and read in Part X beginning with the line "Of force in fight no feebler I count me..." where he boasts about not using weapons. Apparently, he did not know about Grendel's magic. But you'd think some of the Danes would have told him, wouldn't you?

Hi...I'm back, having tinkered a little more with Uncle Bob and the dating of the Beowulf poem. I now know two slightly disturbing facts about the problems involved. In the first place, I found his 1955 article in Medium Aevum (a journal), where he found possible echoes of Beowulf in the charters of King Athelstan dating to about 931-3 AD. Now, if he is correct here, that would put a cap--a terminus ante quem--of the early 10th century on the composition of the Beowulf.

I'm now trying to obtain a copy of the specific book, by interlibrary loan, he was originally looking at that gave Uncle Bob the idea that the Beowulf had been dated too early. I suspect, having seen his article in the festschrift for Armando Sapori, that much of his argument rests on analogy. The argument from analogy is aways the weakest.

Strikes me, for example, that flashing eyes in a snake-like monster could happen randomly, as well as from analogy to a specific model. I'll just have to wait and see.

Well the spell was on Grendel himself so that "no swords edge could damage him" and that is why though Beowulfs aides were laying about with their weapons they could not cut him. But I think he does die. in line 820-"Grendel was driven under the fen banks-fatally hurt to his desolate lair. The days of his life were numbered, the end of his life was coming over him, he knew it for certain..." So BW did not "let him live".Fae

Grendel is joyless when spurned and demoniacally gleeful when he sees human meat ready for the taking. Grendel is consistently emotional. The monster has human qualities.

The Geat thinks he would be taking unfair advantage of Grendel with sword and shield. Grendel knows nothing of the arts of war. So it is the gentlemanly thing to do. Bare knuckles to the end. Now to the question of battle gear. Would John Wayne leave home without his trusty 44 caliber. He would feel undressed. Moreover, observers would think he were undressed. Could one have confidence in the man as a fighter, protector of women and children? No, of course not. So too, Beowulf must adorn his person with mail, shield, and sword to impress as well as to feel dressed.

One of the themes of this work is the role of the Almighty in determining human outcomes. For example, Beowulf says, Grendel and I will fight; the Almighty will select the winner. The theme is repeated over and over throughout the poem. Beowulf has the free will to fight but the result will be determined by God. These are mixed signals. It seems to me there are two issues. Can the poem stand alone without the christian inserts and if it can, then what is the secular message in the poem?

I don't think this is a contest between God and Grendel. I think it is an expression of the relationship between God and man.But there is a secular message as well. We just have not found it yet.

What ho! Henry has emerged from the stacks...with word of the dating of the manuscript...capped at early 10th century! Have I told you that I will be in the British Library in a week or so...and have been trying to find out what I can see of the original manuscript. It appears that there is a massive rescue attempt to save it...to digitalize the original. I'm afraid that's all I will see, but still have hopes of seeing more than I can now see on the Internet.

I happened to be surfing through one of the links in the heading here... Time Line and came across this section on dating the manuscript. I thought this part might be of interest to you, Henry.

"When was Beowulf written? Dates of origin for the Beowulf manuscript range from the late eighth century to the early eleventh century, and, I'm sorry to say, the question of the date will not be satisfactorily answered here. I can, however, point the reader in the direction of Kevin Kiernan ["The Legacy of Wiglaf: Saving a Wounded Beowulf," and "Beowulf" and the "Beowulf" Manuscript]. Kiernan's research of the original text the physical examination of the pages and bindings has lead him to believe that the story was written down sometime around 1000, and his argument is very convincing. [Note: I stress "written down" because some scholars believe the manuscript was the result of an industrious poet who decided to write down what had previously been only part of a scop's repertoire.]

One thing that has convinced Kiernan that Beowulf was most certainly an early eleventh century poem, was a discovery he made during his examination of the original manuscript. The original gatherings, or binding features of the document were constructed in 4-sheet gatherings, all pages ruled for 20 lines of text with only one exception. The scribe had arranged his vellum (sheep-skin) sheets with hair sides facing hair sides and flesh sides facing flesh sides so that a reader would not notice the contrast. Because of this manuscript layout, Kiernan believes the Beowulf manuscript is from the same scriptorium as the Blickling Homilies codex now located in the Scheide collection at Princeton.

What makes this discovery so exciting to me is that it explains in the best possible way why the description of GrendelÕs mere is so like the description of Hell in Blickling Homily 16. The Beowulf poet had access to this manuscript of homilies, which is dated internally in the year 971. Beowulf must have been composed after that. (Kiernan, "Legacy," 208)"

Henry, we are glad to have you back with us and hope you will put aside your research long enough ~ at least until the library book arrives ~ to share your reactions to the poem itself.

I agree with you, Justin ~ one of the main themse in the piece is "the role of the Almighty in determining human outcomes."

First comes the line,

"And the Geat placed complete trust in his strength of limb and the Lord's favor."

THEN, he removes all his protective gear...so he does NOT feel dressed for the task as John Wayne, does he?

I note that he placed complete trust in the LORD's favor AND in his own strength. He goes on to comment that Grendel doesn't know the arts of war (swordplay, etc.) but he does have "wild strength." He also comments:

"So it won't be cutting edge I'll wield
to mow him down, easily as I might..."

Shasta, that line seems to indicate that Beowulf doesn't know about the magic spell Faith has mentioned...or he wouldn't think it would be an easy thing to do, would he?

So, our hero plans to match his own strength against that of Grendel. It would seem he has confidence in the "rightness" of his cause...that God will favor him...

But Justin, you bring up an interesting question...what would be the secular explanation for his boldness, removing God totally from the equation? I guess my real question is...can it be done, or is the role of the Almighty such an integral part of the poem?

Thank you, Joan, for the comment and the website. It is informative. Hopefully, I will have some time to read the poem and comment.

We were saying earlier that Grendel is the personification of evil. Joseph Campbell has a theory about Grendel that I found interesting: ("Creative Mythology")

"It is possible that originally in the "Beowulf" saga the monsters were conceived not as fiends but as the guardians of natural forces, to be not killed, but quelled and integrated. In fact their residence in the Land below Waves suggests an association with those chthonic powers that have always been recognized as dangerous and frightening yet essential to life. And in the subsequent adventure, of Beowulf against Grendel's dam, a sense pervades the scene rather of nature's terrible wonder than of moral evil and crime."

Shasta, that is very interesting...and helpful. Perhaps it is the secular explanantion, the natural explanation we are looking for? Perhaps those first to hear the Beowulf story understood this?

I have thought of Grendel as representing the evil within...perhaps this ongoing conflict is what makes us human. Most of us, thank heavens, win the war and do what is right. There are some who commit the most atrocious crimes ~ we have a hard time accepting them as human ~ in them Grendel has won!

Here's my question of the evening...one I cannot understand. Beouwld was in a "fighting mood, spoiling for action"...right? We are told that "Hygelac's kinsman was keenly watching the first move." Hygelac's kinsman...that would be Beowulf. He's keenly watching...Grendel grab and maul a man on his bench (one of Beowulf's own band) ...watched him "bolt down his blood and gorge on him in lumps." Why is he just lying there watching? Why? Why?

Yes, I agree, Joan, If there is a secular theme, it can be found, I am sure, only by stripping away the christianizing characteristics of the poem and examining the residual. If you are right about the thing being written around 1000, then it is conceivable the bulk of the christianizing was done at that time. Some may have been added gradually to the oral tradition, of course.

I also agree, the job of stripping away the christianizing elements may be very difficult and subjective at best. But as we go along I will examine each one and note its usefulness in context. Perhaps, as we approach the end a rational argument might be made for a secular theme.

I hope you enjoy your visit to the British Library. The last time I visited my card had lapsed and my photo exceeded five years. There was some question raised about my identity and I had to scrounge around for verification before they would update me and my photo. I hope you fare better.

Joan, I want to add to your post #3l2. Go back to conversation between Beowulf and Unferth. I found laughter.

Line 610

"Then the grey-haired treasurer-giver was glad; far famed in battle, the prince of Bright-Danes and keeper of his people counted on Beowulf, on the warrior's steadfastness and his word. So the LAUGHTER started, the din got LOUDER and the crowd was HAPPY."

Thanks, Shasta, for that quote from Joseph Campbell. I had to look up chthonic so here's the definition, just in case I'm not alone in my ignorance:

chthonic--adj. dwelling in or beneath the surface of the earth.

I love the word; it starts with FOUR consonants, most unusual in Engfish. I can't think of another word offhand.

With or without the Christian God, there would most likely have been gods involved in the original tale(s), the one that came before it was written down.

In terms of the story, I don't think it makes much difference whether God is credited or "the gods" or specific representatives of the polytheistic pantheon. Most peoples have had some kind of spiritual beliefs in a power greater than themselves who would aid them in strife.

Beowulf does watch while Grendel gulps one of his warriors. I have no idea why he doesn't act immediately except that we get a fine description of Grendel's ravenous ways by the ensuing description. Sort of like an eyewitness account. We've HEARD about Grendel and his monstrous attacks and now we get to see one.

~Maryal

a literary (or storytelling) device to keep the attention of the audience? Put in some blood and gore to keep them on the edge of their mead benches, so to speak? And I think Maryal is right in that we now can see what we just heard of before. It makes the monster more frightening, even more evil, and conversely elevates Beowulf's ultimate defeat of Grendel to an even higher level of accomplishment. A little hard on the warrior that was eaten, however, but in the 6th C. what was one warrior more or less, anyway?

I love the word chthonic, too, Shasta. Greek derivation and my on-line talking dictionary leaves the "ch" silent. Pronounced: 'thonic. Good word.

(Henry, more cold than cool in Asheville today, right? Brrrr.)

Phyll in the post above says, "A little hard on the warrior that was eaten, however, but in the 6th C. what was one warrior more or less, anyway?"

Yes, exactly. An individual life just isn't worth that much (except I assume to the loved one's of the warrior) in the 6th century. I wonder if it is today. I mean really really. We give a lot of lip service to the idea that every human being has worth and dignity, but if someone you don't know at all dies, does it really matter to you?

And, Phyll, your point about keeping the attention of the audience is well taken. Today there is much violence in movies. Sometimes it is warranted and sometimes just there because audiences like violence. Human nature hasn't changed much since Beowulf's time, whenever that was.

~Maryal

Yeah...good word ~even better knowing how to say it (Thanks Phyll.) Now I can use it. "Use a word three times and it's yours." I wonder who taught me that?

Yes that makes sense...what's one warrior in a war? True then, true now. Except this warrior was special, wasn't he? One of Beowulf's hand-picked men, the cream of the Geats. I think it had to matter much to Beowulf. As Shasta suggests, it could have happened so fast that Beowulf didn't have time to get to him. I think it had to matter to Beowulf.

But did you notice that the Danes seemed more concerned about Heorot, than they were about the number of lost warriors? What did Heorot mean to them? And if it was a sacred place, I'm wondering why Grendel was allowed to even enter the place. It seems that the same "magic" that kept him from approaching the throne, could have kept him out of the hall too? I think this is significant and wonder if you do too?

Termite inspector is here...Brumie, I am on my way back to looking at the "happy laughter" passage...

Don't give me any credit for "chthonic." That was Joseph Campbell's word. I just vaguely knew what it meant, and was trying to pronounce it "ca-thonic."

I think I am trying to look at the poem from the viewpoint of the scop who first composed it and all the succeeding scops that embellished and deleted various events. In the 6th Century I understand that violence and death was a way of life. Poor sanitation, lack of medicine, lack of medical practitioners, lack of information, lack of safety measures in the work place.....all of these things and more contributed to not so much the devaluation of life but to the acceptance of violence and death as a part of daily life. We can't evaluate Beowulf from the standpoint of the 21st Century. We have to try, as best we can, to judge it from the time(s) it was a story being told to an audience. I imagine that in large part the audiences were always made up of men----they would have accepted, even demanded, violence in the story. I don't believe it detracts from the stature of Beowulf that he watched while Grendel ate a warrior. Perhaps Beowulf used the act to judge just what would be necessary tactics for him to get rid of the monster. He wanted to see what kind of power Grendel had so he could meet him with equal, or better, power. It's called "sizing up your opposition".

At this point, I think I see the poem as a recounting of history "dressed up in Sunday clothes" (embellished, inflated, even made grandiose) and not a morality tale teaching the difference between good and evil, or God and pagan. I think the attempts to make it into a morality tale were inserted later.

Maybe I am being Phyll, the Pragmatic Pilgrim? (Ah, shades of the road to Canterbury!)

My idea is that the pagan gods of the world of the scop (or scops)had good and evil, had warrior gods who helped the good warrior to achieve his goals, and had clthonic gods of the underworld, dragons and monsters who ate up good warriors, so the morality tale could be authentic and the christian writers who "wrote down" the songs they had been hearing simply overlay the pagan with the christian as they did all their holidays etc. In this way the general populace easily accepted the changes in their religion generation to generation. Fae

Phyllo, I do understand that you are looking at the tale from the viewpoint of the early Geats and Danes...you want to hear what the first scops were saying of Beowulf's magnificent feat...

I loved reading of the celebration at Heorot following Beowulf's triumph~

"Meanwhile a thane
of the king's household, a carrier of tales,
a traditional singer deeply schooled
in the lore of the past, linked a new theme,
to a strict meter. The man started to recite with skill, rehearsing Bewoullf's
triumphs and feats in well-fashioned lines..."

That's the scop you want to hear, Phyll! He would be the first scop, wouldn't he? Personally, I am more interested in the piece of vellum in existence. The one in the British Library. (I received word yesterday that a page is on exhibition in the treasures gallery at St. Pancras. I am so relieved...thought all I'd see was an electronic page.) That's the one with the references to the Almighty and God with a capital "G"...

It's possible that all these references were inserted by someone other than a scop...but I don't believe that. I do believe that the Manuscript scop was a Christian and if the religious underpinnings were not there yet, he would have included them.

But whether the real Beowulf recieved help from "G"od or "g"od, as Fae says, I must confess no matter what words he's using, he still has more confidence in his own ability and doesn't seem to be giving much thanks to a higher Power...or power. He is still boasting of his superior strength.

No, I don't want to judge his actions by 21th c. standards...but am looking for human traits I have in common with 6th century man - keeping in mind that his circumstances were very different as you point out, Phyll, "Sizing up the opposition" might explain it...did Grendel reach with his left or right hand... OK, yes, and that observation would lead him to overcome Grendel and therefore save many other lives. I still believe that the man was well known to Beowulf, and warrior or not, Beowulf would have been "down" about the loss...no matter the century.

Brumie, I went back to the passage you sited to see and hear the men pounding on the table, laughing and celebrating Beowulf' promise to overcome Grendel. These are not grim warriors who have seen hard times...they are "happy", they are are in a mood to party.

Another thought about "joyless" Grendel. He hears these men happily carrying on within...and he feels "spurned"...shut out. There is so much going on here. Why is he not included in the brotherhood of man? WE are told it is because of Cain, the murderer. So how does he overcome his "joylessness"? By murdering more men - continuing to exclude himself further. Where does it all end?

Beowulf has been able to strip away his hand, arm...shoulder, wants to kill him, but did he? I was surprised to read how G. met his end. The question is, how did he die?

By the way, don't you think the battle was a powerfully written piece? I'd site some lines, but need to run and have used up all my ink for now!

I am up to my ears in papers, but I can't miss a stopby to see how Beowulf is doing.

Phyll--You be just as pragmatic as you need to be. I myself am a pragmatist for the most part, the very opposite of a romantic. I too like to imagine the tale as it must have sounded to those early warriors BEFORE it was written down. Just to complicate matters, we have only ONE surviving manuscript of the poem and we know that many Old English manuscripts were destroyed due to fire, war, and the general untidiness of the times. Joan is actually going to see one page from that sole survivor.

Seems to me that we don't know more than we know when it comes to the manuscript. I wonder if there were not many copies of this poem at one time. Since it was important enough to be written down, it seems likely that it would have been copied many times. Perhaps some copied accurately and others didn't. At any rate, we have this one early manuscript.

Joan--Thanks for quoting those lines describing the scop singing of Beowulf's triumph over Grendel. I love the fact that he was "a traditional singer, deeply/ schooled in the lore of the past." He must have known Many stories, and now he has a new one to sing of Beowulf.

Poor Grendel. I think he bleeds to death. At any rate, he seems to know that he is dying as he notices that "his bodily powers" are failing him. He crawls off to die at home. None of us would live very long with our arms torn off, shoulder and all--not in the 6th, 7th, or indeed the 18th centuries.

The more I read of it, the more I admire Heaney's translation. He sees Grendel as "skulking" away "bloodying the path,/ hauling his doom to the demons' mere" (844-845). It must be hard to skulk when you're as large as Grendel.

~Maryal

Joan asked why Beowulf was in a "fighting mood, spoiling for action." I can answer that. It was just pure male testosterone boiling up. Men just have to fight from time to time, for the sheer love of it. It's their nature. That's why we try to divert as much of that aggressive energy as possible into sports, like football and soccer, to try to keep the number of wars down to a minimum. I have no illusions about Beowulf and his mead-hall buddies. They fought because they loved violence. If Grendel hadn't come around, they'd have fought each other.

That scene in the mead-hall was the father of all barroom brawls. There probably wasn't a bench left intact when they got through. It always annoys me when I watch movies to see all the furniture getting broken up. I suppose it's a typical female response: if you have to bash each other up, at least don't smash the furniture!

Is Grendel human or some admixture of being that includes human elements? He has a soul, albeit a heathen one, and hell has claimed him. Christianity associates these characteristics with humanity. (see line 851) At line 970 we learn he had a hand, an arm , and a shoulder. These are the body parts of a human. On line 976 he is described; "Like a man outlawed for wickedness, he must await the mighty judgment of God in majesty. Only humans will be judged on Judgment Day. Further, he is likened here to Cain, a man. Yet, after all this human description, he is said to have a blood caked claw-a nonhuman body part. (Line 989) What can one conclude from these mixed signals? Is Grendel man or beast or a little of both? I confess, I don't know the answer.

Why did Beowulf allow Grendel to kill the Geat in his bed and right next to Beowulf? I think the answer lies on line 1057. "Past and present, God's will prevails." It is this predestiny thing. Line 1055, " He would have killed more, had not mindful God, and one man's daring prevented that doom." Beowulf is the hand of God. That hand was stayed for the Geat, and put in play for the rest of the Geats. Beowulf is here an instrument of Divine will.

I've read so much and learned so much but with all the Introductions and Prefaces I was not able to read the copy that has the Tolkien Intoduction. Although, nearly every writer did refer some thought that originated with him. I think I must have scoped out just about every site on the internet as well - but I bet there are still a few more that I missed. It appears that Tolkien was the Joseph Campbell of his day.

Wasn't it you Faith that said the Nortaon edition of Seamus Heasey's traslation was better - I sure agree because it has all those reference notes on nearly every page. At $8.75 I just went ahead and purchased it.

Joan, really are you going to see the original - oh my - I remember seeing and reading some of the original Magna Carta. We study about these documents and it still takes my breath away when I see they are real and not just some photo in a book. I remember being shocked to learn the Church wanted to protect their forest land therefore, they weren't too excited about freedom for the serfs either. And seeing the Rosetta Stone was another wonder since there was so much made of it when I was studying history in the 6th grade. I know you will have a great time - my happy thoughts go with you.

I had no idea that there was a formular so to speak to the Epic poem. Michael Alexander explains that there is a "traditional presentation of life in the heroic world" that he lists as

voyage
welcome
feast
boast
arming
fight
reward
exchange of speaches or blows
idealization and standardization
He also says that an Epic has conflict - I did not note if this was just Beowulf or all Epics but he spoke of
Life - Death
Harmoney - Chaos
good - evil

A bit back there was a discussion about the believablity of the monster Grendel - I can really see folks believing - So many of the Mexican families here truly believe in La Llorona - so much so that, it was just over 20 years ago now, some of the 5th and 6th grade girls went hysterical and would not at use the girls rest room in the Lockhart elementary school till finally, their mothers came and also agreed, La Llorona was in the girls rest room and they wouldn't send their daughters to school - so, school closed that year a month early.

Now this is a public school and yet, they had the priest over and everything but ended up barring off that section of the school and the city of Lockhart built a new elementary school that opened two years later. Until the new school was opened the girls at their choice did without a rest room. Pretty powerful belief and so a Grendel - sure.

I DO want to "feel" the poem as it would have been told in the mead halls from the 6th to the 10th centuries. I want to be the serving maid who is lurking behind the pillar and listening to this wondrous tale. I want to see the absorbed expressions on the faces of the warriors who sit, leaning forward, on their mead benches. I want to feel the mood of excitement when the battle between Beowulf and Grendel is chanted. And, yes, Shasta, I want to experience puzzlement at this appetite for violence--why does it seem that men love it so much? I want to dream of such a magnificent hero as Beowulf must have been and that someday such a man will come and take me away from my duties in the scullery (or whatever the 6th C. equivalent was) and I will live out my days in a beautiful golden hall such as Heorot.

And there, Maryal, is the other side of my pragmatic "coin". I am both the romantic that I was when I was younger and the pragmatist that I have become. So many people here in the Books and Literature Discussions speak of how they identify with the character they are reading about or literally become a part of the story. I understand that!

I think you are right, too, Barbara, in that monsters are still with us. Perhaps some cultures more readily accept the idea of monsters but I doubt that there are very many of us humans who do not have our own "monsters" to deal with. Perhaps that is why these kinds of epic tales are so lasting. They bring into the light something we try to keep hidden.

(And this side note: "reckless confidence of youth." This is a part of a quote from a review in the NY Times of a West Village restaurant, of all things. The quote was referring to the chef but when I read it my thoughts immediately conjured up Beowulf. At this stage of his life, just as he is meeting Grendel, this is the way I think of him.)

Phyll!, I just knew there was another side of you! So, you are able to relate to one of the characters in the tale...to an invisible maid behind one of the golden pillars...hahaha, dreaming of being carried off by the strongest man on earth! Now that's some dream! Carolyn, many years ago, wrote a charming piece about her little granddaughter, who confessed to her that when no one was around, she sometimes went into her storybooks to be with the people there. She did assure Carolyn however, that she would never go into one with monsters by herself! I'll never forget that. Now we have you, Phyll, going into one ~complete with monsters~ and running off with the Clint Eastwood-make my day hero! Love it!

I understand what you are saying though, you are more interested in the origin of the tale, the historical rather than the translation of the only manuscript in "captivity".

Barbara, yes, a page of the original manuscript is available for public "consumption". I had worried after hearing of the deteriorating condition of the manuscript, that I wouldn't see it. If that had been the case, I was going to skip the trip to the British Library this time. But now will go and gape, and do as Ginny says, go into the Computer Room, view what they have done with the digitalization...and tell them about our discussion! I will!

Barbara, you have the Norton Critical Edition of Seamus Heaney's translation, right? Then you have about 50 pages of Tolkien's famous lecture to the British Academy in 1936...Beowulf: the Monsters and Critics that has been quoted ever since! In the Norton, you'll find it on p 103. When I picked it up to find the page numbers, I found myself drawn to reading it again and thought to see what he has to say about Grendel. I know, Justin, I know, we are going to approach this with "arrogance", reaching our own group conclusions rather than rely on the scholars. Not to worry, I'm not "tainted", because I didn't get that far before coming upon his discussion of Beowulf as poetry. It is this position, I believe, that sort of revolutionized the way people have looked at Beowulf ever since. I'm going to quote from it...hopefully, not too much to overwhelm you...

"...It is of Beowulf then, as a poem that I wish to speak...."
"Beowulf is in fact so interesting as poetry, in places poetry so powerful, that this quite overshadows the historical content, and is largely independent even of the most important facts (such as the date and identity of Hyelac) that research has discovered. It is indeed a curious fact that it is one of the peculiar poetic virtues of Beowulf that has contributed to its own misfortunes. The illusion of historical truth and perspective......is largely a product of art."
"Nearly all the censure, and most of the praise, that has been bestowed on The Beowulf has been due either to the belief that it was something that it was not ~ for example, primitive, pagan, Teutonic, an allegory (politically or mythical), or most often, an epic...."

Admittedly this is one man's view...but this lecture was a benchmark and has influenced the way scholars have viewed the poem ever since. There's more, but I'll stop before I get carried away and quote for pages...

Much to think about from your Grendel post, Justin ~ will be back after lunch~ Thank you!

I was right in the middle of reading "The monsters and the critics" and am suffering from an affected eye (the one with the implant) from reading too much at one session this last week. It was swollen shut, I went to the MD and he said dont read for 4 hours and eat dinner and read 4 more hours any more. Sad to say I wasn't reading The Discussion Stuff. I had picked up Drowning Ruth and didnt put it down till I finished it. Now when My eye is better I will have to read the rest of the Tolkien essay, but a little at a time.. I had a good week though as staying out of the latest book box my kid brought me got me out into the sunshine . Fae

Fae!...oh my...8 hours of reading...heavens! You DO need that sunshine! We are just happy that you have finished Drowning Ruth ~(what did you think?)...and are now back to the poem...(with only a little Tolkien at a time).

Ah yes, Justin, that claw! Puts Grendel into the demon category, doesn't it? The tail, the horns...and claws! I did think of him as Satan for a while there. But as you point out, Grendel has human characteristics too. So what does that make him?

Right now, I'm looking at Grendel as the "admixture" you describe...human and "the beast"...son of woman...and of the devil. The antithesis of Christ...son of woman, son of God.

The other thing you mention is the "pre-destiny" thing, Justin. I keep getting a mixed feeling from Beowulf...he's mouthing the words that his fate is in God's hands, but everything he does, indicates that his confidence rests in his own skill and strength.

When in High School, I remember two things the school chaplain taught us, and I mean taught us so that they stuck all these years later. I'll tell you the second one some other time, but the one thing that is relevent here...is a prayer/lesson to live by really... I wasn't sure what it meant when I was 17, but it has served me well through the years. I think that Beowulf learned the same, somewhere:

"Pray as if everything depends on God and work as if everything depends upon me ~ Because it does."

Joan, I think you have hit upon it. Your Chaplain's message of a dichotomous blend of prayer and skill is what I see in the Beowulf character. When Beowulf's effort succeeds does he say,"God willed it " or does he take full credit? On line 927, Beowulf says, " First and foremost, let the Almighty Father be thanked for this sight. ...The Heavenly Shepherd can work his wonders always and everywhere."

By the way, the "Heavenly Shepherd" is a NT term. Christ is depicted in many early images as beardless and carrying a stray lamb on his shoulders. He is often called the Good Shepherd. There is nothing like it in OT.

It seems to me that Beowulf takes a good deal of credit for his achievements. I am always conscious that this is a pagan tale with Christian overtones that were added later, and these overtones are not fused into the story convincingly. Still, this is the version that has come down to us, and I suppose we have to accept it as it is.

Shasta, what I find interesting is that so far, there are no pagan gods mentioned or even referred to by name.

You mentioned the New Testament "good shepherd", Justin... I noticed earlier underlying phrases and words that indicate to me, at least that our Beowulf manuscript poet was versed in the New Testament...specifically

When Wealhtheow passes the cup to Beowulf, he takes the cup and promises to deliver the Danes, even if he must give his own life. This scene and the words used...right from the Last Supper

When Hrothgar praises Beowulf for having delivered them from Grendel, he says,
"Whoever she was
who brought forth this flower of manhood,
if she is still alive, that woman can say
that in her labor the Lord of Ages
bestowed a grace on her."

The scop who sings a new song in Beowulf's praise, also sings an old one too. More talk of killing giants. Were giants, well, you know, like, more common in those old days?

Tolkein has a long explaination of MOnsters and Men . I am enjoying his essay. He feels it did nothing to harm the scop's theme to leave out the pagan gods names etc. as he also surpressed Christianity mostly.

Joan I skipped back in my Norton to read about the manuscript. Of course I saw pictures and read some on the internet too. This is an interesting article but I still can not understand why only one copy survived. It is amazing to me. Well I also am envious that you will visit that one surviving manuscript. Greeneyed Fae's are sometimes something to watchout for...fae s

I agree that the term "Heavenly Father" probably has a NT connotation but that is Heaney's translation. In the Gummere trans. the same words are "Sovran Lord" and I don't believe that can be attributed to only the NT. And in the Breeden trans. it is "the glorious protector". Heaney is quite honest in his statement that he inserted words that stemmed from his Irish/Celtic upbringing. I believe that it is Heaney who makes this a Christian (NT) reference and not the original tale.

In addition, Heaney has the word "bawn" in line 721. That sent me on a word chase to find out what bawn meant. I found that it is an Irish word meaning house, or in some cases, castle. That is definitely not a word that would have been used in any original version but is a Heaney word. Also, in line 714, Heaney translates: "Under the cloud-murk he moved toward it ....." Gummere trans. the phrase as, "Under welkin walked...." (Another word chase..welkin means under sky, or under heaven") Heaney changed that phrase to cloud-murk and to me that changed the whole feel of that line. To me cloud-murk is so much more descriptive than sky, it gives much more atmosphere to the approach of Grendel---makes it more threatening, somehow.

Mainly what I am saying is that whether the poem is OT or NT or even pagan depends on the words each translator has used. One word can change the whole focus. I don't know, no one does, whether the original spoken story of Beowulf had religious overtones or whether those were inserted over the ages. My belief is that they were inserted. Definitely Heaney's words of "Heavenly Father" were inserted by him and though those words might have a NT connotation it doesn't mean that Beowulf was composed in that light.

Early in this discussion, someone provided a link to a lot of articles pertaining to Beowulf. I didn't have time to read them all at that time, and now I can't find the link. Can anybody tell me what that link was?

Shasta, there are a number of links in the heading...scroll up to the discussion schedule and right beneath it, you'll find a few links that were mentioned here...look at the Anthopological and Cultural link. That might help...if not, ask nice and someone who has found something will help you out, I'm sure.

I'm not sure this is the reference you wanted, but check it out:

http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/5/toc.html#anchor856340

It's an issue of a journal called "The Heroic Age."

Bon voyage, Joan!! We all would like to come with you. Have a wonderful time and don't worry about those of us huddled here in the mead hall.

~Maryal

Thanks, Joan and Maryal. I didn't find the site I had before but I found another one by Syd Allan, who collects Beowulf translations. I was reading different translations of the fight between Beowulf and Grendel's mother. My word! There must be hundreds of them! I had no idea "Beowulf" had been translated so many times. They all contain the same content, but each one is presented in a different way. How is it possible that all these translators read the same manuscript, and translated it differently?

We will miss you here but hope you enjoy your stay in Merry old...I know looking at old parchments can be fun. I did it once in Canterbury Library. Actually had a twelth century charter from King Henry ll in my hands-seals and all. It was an experience I will never forget.

Phyll says we can blame Heaney for "Heavenly Shepherd". If that is the case, and I think it is, we will need more than NT language to make the deity references in Beowulf NT.

Phyll: That was good post and a astute observation.

Shasta that is exactly why I broke down and bought the Noton Critical Edition of Seamus Heaney's translation ,edited by Danial Donoughue. This little paper back was 8.00 at Borders and it has some wonderful critical essays regarding the original manuscript, the difficulty of translating and why there are so many, and much much more besides the poem. I also go on Line to read the David Breeden translation as it is so much a modern paraphrasing of the story rather than an attempt at a literal translation. faith

http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/index.html Shasta this is a very good link to Breeden.

What I found so amzing is that each book of the tranlated Beowulf has an intro that includes either the tranlater or another noted author's explanation of the meter, rhyme or lack of etc. etc. Every explanation differs - the one I liked best, especially after noting such a variety of understanding is one that almost explains the chaos.

I beleive it was Michael Alexander who says, "two phrases called halflines combine to form one line. When pairing, premium is variety. The same rhythem is not repeated in both halves. Two successive lines are rarly alike. Halflines are linked by alliteration in stressed syllables (he gives the example of 'God-cursed Grendel come greedily loping') two alliterations per halfline, four per line with no repeat but conforms to a pattern. (he uses the letter B to further the explanation) line 1 alliteration on B - line 2 anything but B."

And that explanation about no repeat helps me understand why it is hard for me to hear any meter, any systematic regular rhythm. I've learned as I am attempting to write poetry that meter organises the content, gives emphasis to words or elements that would otherwise escape our attention. - The tighter the metre, the more expressive can be small departures from the norm. Metre gives dignity and memorability, - conveys tempo, mood, the subtle shifts in evidence, passion and persuasion beyond what is possible in prose.

I can see how the use of kenning gives memorability, passion and persuasion but I Think it falls to the alliteration to give this poem the dignity that allows us to not question these fantastic feats that could seem like a big spoof of good-ol' boy back thumping. Although as I read this poem it feels more like someone telling the story of Beowulf rather than Beowulf announcing what a great man am I. It feels like someone telling the story in one of these great mead-halls and embrodering the story, especially Grendel with greater horror to show off Beowulf as this great hero. If a storyteller is telling what the hero would say it would be so easy for them to put words in the characters mouth and give Beowulf's speaches greater star quality.

I just loved the sound of this bit

"...Then an extraordinary
wail arose, and bewildering fear
came over the Danes. Everyone felt it
who heard that cry as it echoed off the wall,
a God-cursed scream and strain of catastrophe,
the howl of the loser, the lament of the hell-serf
keening his wound. He was overwhelmed"

As I am reading this I can see the last word of each line seems to be making the point which is really the whole purpose of rhyme and meter - is to help us connect the dots and get the point the author is making.

I'm getting out of this now that fear, everyone felt it, the wall, catastrophe, hell, overwhlmed. I could change felt to feels and then this bit really says something to me - we all and I feel fear - fear is our wall, a catastrophe, our hell like cry and so we allow it to overwhelm us. hmmmmm may not be exactly what the writer intended but it gives the poem 21st century meaning to me.

Barbara! You make me want to stay home... and get into Beowulf with you! But the plane is leaving...today. Haven't really packed...I mean I haven't put everything together and then weighed it all to be sure not to exceed weight limits. Bruce says "weight limits" should be defined to include only that which he can carry up stairs when dragging is not an option!

British Air has its own ideas about weight...I do need to weigh this stuff and put you guys away for a while. But you won't be far from my thoughts, Fae...I'll "bring you something"...

One of the places we will visit ~ Iona, in Scotland. St. Columba's old monastery (well, the ruins)...founded in 563. I'm going to soak it all in...commune with those spirits. Do you know what I learned? The Books of Kells" was created at this monastery, later moved to Ireland for safe-keeping, which is why it is now found at Trinity College in Dublin.

Then on to the British Library to see the surviving Beowulf manuscript...will look for some nuggets of information to bring "home" to you.

I had hoped to have more time today (hahahaha...) to talk about those two songs the scop was singing during the celebration following Beowulf's feat...

These two songs aren't just taking up space...they are going to figure as we move along. There are lots of uncle/nephew relationships to sort out...and it's worth noting too that Hygelac is Beowulf's uncle...his life is one of the historical bits of information in the tale.

Geeeeeeeeeeeee, I want to stay and get into this with you. Have extended the discussion schedule above to give you until Wednesday to delve into the two songs, before getting back to the next problem at Heorot. Funny how the songs prepare the way for what is to come. Someone once said, "history is the only book you begin in the middle." I get the same feeling with Beowulf. The past has such an effect on the present, which quickly becomes the future...

I'm putting off the packing, aren't I? Will really miss you, look forward to returning and ask only that you keep my place by the fire.

Love,
Joan

Have a wonderful time Joan. Bring me a picture of a" real "fae and unicorn heheheh Fae

I'm glad Joan is going to explain why the two songs are not just taking up space. It seemed to me they were totally irrelevant, except maybe to provide some background.

I like the Breeden site, Faith. But then I seem to like each translation I read. I have Heaney's audio tape, and the Norton Anthology of Eng. Lit. which is somewhat different from the online poetry. I like the poetry best because I love to hear the chiming consonants. Heaney has a beautiful voice with its slight Irish lilt. I think his accent actually adds to the poetry.

Barbara, what does "kenning" mean?

As I understand it Shasta it is using two hyphenated words that describe something rather than calling it by its real name - like 'swan-way' or 'whale-road' are used and are kennings for the sea or the route on the sea; another was 'ring-giver' to describe Hrothgar. I am liking it to our use of words that are not hyphenated to describe Jesus or God - we say things like the 'Lord on High' and we all know what we are talking about.

I think finally I've a handle on this caesura and what is does - several of the essays say that this is a poem of antitheasis and now I can even see what they are talking about - The caesura is not only a pause and written as a colan : but it creates a balance between the concepts of images and sometimes that balance is a contrast or antithesis. Another bible translation to help - in other words the first half of the line could relate to the faithful and the second half relate to God - example;

He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass:

as showers that water the earth

They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him:

and his enemies shall lick the dust.

Or as Beowulf is written

He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth

And in addition the stresses or accents as we say certain words, the emphsis we put on certain words or parts of words - well there are supposed to be an equal number of accents on either side of the caesura. Also, the advise is not to put the caesura in the same position in every line or even consecutive lines if you can help it. Evidently this is a devise that Walt Whitman uses in "Song of Myself."

And then the easiest way to understand what alliteration is; look for several words in the line with the same connsonate. Connsonates give an emphises or accent to the line - example Borrowed from Beowulf: measuring the beats.

You can see and hear the accents - all the B words and sur from measuring - therefore there are 2 accents on either side of the caesura.

Now understanding that each line is to be different I am really finally in awe at the skill of this poet who used this basic story or copied the story and created this poem.

I'm also seeing that by slowing down and observing this form I can see better what the points are that the poet is making.

"The lord allowed Grendel to slip from his fingers." Beowulf says, in effect, it's not my fault, it's God's. When things go well, we thank God but accept the adulation. When things go wrong, the fault is God's. It is not my magnificent wrestling skill that is at fault. After all when I ,Beowulf, got a grip on this opponent I tore away his arm and shoulder. So if he slipped at first, It was God who did it. Now, why does he think God did it? What does he think God's motive was in allowing Grendel to slip from his fingers? Perhaps he thinks God does not need a motive. He just does things like that for amusement. No, there was a motive but it was not God's motive. It was Beowulf's motive. He could not admit to an error in his technique. Beowulf is vulnerable as he commits the sin of pride. Until this point in the tale we have had superman to contend with. Superman is not a hero because he is not vulnerable. It is vulnerability that makes a man a hero. Without vulnerability there is no courage. Now, we have a hero and an epic.

ooowh I like that and never heard it expressed as such - "Without vulnerability there is no courage." and wow yes - "Now, we have a hero and an epic."

on the road back to Heorot from viewing the remains of Grendel, was giving Beowulf the highest of compliments and elevating him to the stature of epic hero. This quote is from an article by Tanvi Patel, dated July 22, 2001:

"....comparing Beowulf's tale to the likes of Sigemund's great victory in the past, the scop simultaneously heightens Beowulf's status as a hero and defines the characteristics of a noble warrior. The scop suggests that in battle, the courageous are those that are not controlled by their fears and prove their "strength and valor, among the giants" (ln.902). Moreover, by focusing primarily on individuals, such as Sigemund, who have been successful in battle, the scop illustrates that the characteristics of honesty, trust, and kindness propel good heroes to greatness. Therefore, the scop becomes not only a historian but also a teacher of heroic codes during medieval times."

If you are interested in reading the rest of this informative article it tells of the role of the scop in medieval times. Songs to Remember

Justin's comment about vulnerability reminds me of a quotation that Hemingway liked: "The coward dies a thousand deaths; the brave man dies but one." I've always thought this is simply not true. It's harder to face a thousand deaths than to face just one. Being a natural-born coward myself, I'm absolutely sure of this. Courage is being able to perform in spite of fear and vulnerability. Actually, I admired Beowulf most at the end when he was an old man and losing his strength, and he went out and fought the dragon anyway.

Barbara, you lost me with your explanation of "antithesis." It seems to me that the two phrases on each side of the caesura, in your examples, are not making contrasting statements, but repeating the same thing. I've heard "Beowulf" called a poem of antithesis, and I wondered why it was called this.

I've been concentrating on lines 10670-1158, the saga of Finn, and attempting to decipher it. Once we figure out what the story is, perhaps we can speculate as to why it is here. Joan suggested that we look at it before she left (I suspect a trap here since the saga is an odd little fragment).

After reading the tale several times, I have decided that the original listeners to this poem (or the original readers) must have already had some knowledge about this fight between the Danes and the Frisions. I've read all the footnotes and am still working on just what went on.

Phyll--I note that you have already called our attention to that song that one of the thanes sings to Beowulf about the mighty Sigemund and comparing Beowulf to that hero. Indeed, you are right. Any comparison to Sigemund was high praise indeed.

Shasta--It's interesting that you found Beowulf's encounter with the dragon when he was an old man more admirable than the earlier battles with Grendel and Grendel's Mom. Tolkien, in the essay we've all been noticing, sees the poem as divided into two parts: youth and age. When Beowulf fights Grendel and then Grendel's Mom, he is at the height of his powers; when he confronts the dragon, he is an old man. Other readers of the poem divide it into three parts, one focused on each battle.

Be back later with (maybe) more insight into the saga of Finn.

~Maryal

Shasta I did not quote anything from Beowulf to write out what I now understand rather, I used are quotes from the Bible and a made up sentence using Beowulf in the sentence. As I understand it the antithesis is and I'll quote from the earlier post "but it creates a balance between the concepts of images and sometimes that balance is a contrast or antithesis." I think it was the essay from Tolkien that said Beowulf is all about "thesis and antithesis." I think that must mean sometimes the caesura breaks a furthering or explanation of the first half and other times the caesura breaks a contrasting thought in the halfline.

Shasta I think I was writing here my understanding thinking I was helping others clearify and probably I have not clearified any better than all these authors - I have not ever seen so many different ways of trying to explain something in my life - every auther seems to use his own formula with so many curves and slanted lines - amazing and no two of them say the same thing. I looked it up in some books about writing poetry to try to understand what in the world they were saying. Hehehe and you may be saying the same thing about my post. Oh my -

SO, still working on the scop's saga of Finn-----this morning, a thought came to me. Do you all remember:

Born on a mountain top in Tennessee
Greenest state in the land of the free
Raised in the woods so he knew ev'ry tree
Kilt him a b'ar when he was only three
Davy, Davy Crockett, king of the wild frontier

That's what we have here in the scop's song, a retelling of part of the story of the revenge of the Danes against the Frisians, with an emphasis on the unhappy and bereaved Hildeburh, who in the course of the warfare loses her brother, her son, and finally her husband, Finn.

The story goes something like this. It begins in the middle. We encounter Hildeburh who "had little cause to credit the Jutes" because she has lost her brother and her son, killed in the battle that breaks out between the Danes and the Frisians. Hildeburh (who is a Dane) is married to Finn, a Frisian. Her brother is Hnaef, a Dane. She has a son from her marriage to Finn. Somehow, whether it be ambush or accident, a battle breaks out when her brother, Hnaef, is visiting the mead hall of Finn.

Many are killed on both sides. Hnaef, leader of the Danes, is killed. Finn does not have enough thanes left to continue to fight the Danes, now led by Hengest, so a truce is struck. Finn provides rewards to both his own men and to the men of the Danes, giving "wrought-gold rings" to both sides "to keep morale in the beer-hall high."

Finn's wife, Hildeburh, orders that her son's body be placed on the funeral pyre with her brother's, and we get a graphic description of the consumption of the bodies, "Carcass flame swirled and fumed,/ they stood round the burial mound and howled/ as heads melted, crusted gashes /spattered and ran bloody matter."

Then winter sets in. Hengest, now leader of the Danes, cannot set out for home because of rough waters. Come spring, he sets out to revenge the death of the leader of the Danes, Hnaef (Hildeburh's brother).

Armed with his sword, "Dazzle-the-duel" Hengest and his men avenge the death of their leader. Finn, the leader of the Frisians (and husband to Hildeburh), is killed, and the Danes take his gold and carry his wife, Hildeburh, back to Daneland, thus restoring her to her native country: "Over sea-lanes then/ back to Daneland the warrior troop/ bore that lady home."

In outline, that's the story the scop sings. I think that the original audience would have been familiar with the story because there are so many parts omitted such as why battle breaks out in the first place.

Now the problem is, why THIS story and how does it fit with the story of Beowulf?

~Maryal

So who are the Frisians? Norton Anthology says: "The Jutes or the Frisians are represented as enemies of the Danes in the fight at Finnsburg and as allies of the Franks or Hugas at the time Hygelac the Geat made the attack in which he lost his life and from which Beowulf swam home." Beowulf swam home? Swam home from where?

The link about the scops that Phyll provided is interesting because it helps you realize what life was like in those days. The scop was a source of information as well as entertainment, and probably the only source they had. They didn't have CNN or the New York Times or computers or radios to keep up with the news. They must have been starved for news, and eager to hear anything he wanted to tell them. But how much of it was fact and how much was fiction? Maybe it didn't matter.

Shasta--What a wonderful question. I have no idea who the Frisians were, other than the people who lived in Freisland (wherever THAT is!) and who were, in the saga of Finn, the enemies of the Danes.

However, they must have been friends of the Danes at some point because Hildeburh, a Dane, married Finn, a Frisian, probably in token of an agreement to be friends since marriages at this time often had political connotations.

But as to who they were, this ancient people, I'm gonna have to go look that up.

Back later, Maryal

Boy, am I embarrassed. One of my main areas of weakness is GEOGRAPHY. First I misspelled Friesland and then I had no idea where it was.

Turns out that Friesland still IS.

This, from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Friesland

coastal provincie, northern Netherlands, extending inland from the IJsselmeer and the North Sea (west and north) and including four of the West Frisian Islands (see Frisian Islands) off the north coast.

And the Frisian language still exists too.

~Maryal

Helgoland is perhaps the most important Island in the group. It rises out of the North Sea to aproximately 200 feet above water. It is about 30 miles from Bremen and Hamburg. The British seized the Island at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. It was ceded by Denmark in 1814. It was fortified heavily in WWl and WWll, when it housed German Submaine pens. Before the war Helgoland was a German resort beach. In 1890, Britain swapped the Island for Zanzibar- a huge mistake. People speak German and Frisian. Fohr is a 30 square mile island devoted to fishing and agriculture. Sylt Island lies about ten miles from Germany and about 300 miles from the English Coast. It is from Sylt that, local tradition says, Hengist, 5th century invader of Britain left. This was his home base. The pounding seas have removed about an acre of land from these islands every ten years. That means that in the 5th century Sylt and Helgoland were substantially larger. Geologists think these Islands were once part of the European mainland.

There is a Frisland WI . I found that when looking at a map of ancient frisland. fr

Justin--Thanks for the information on Friesland. I agree that the British made a big mistake, and find it fascinating that these islands were once much larger. The sea does eat away at land, and when you're dealing with an island, it makes a lot more difference. I thank you for adding to my formerly non-existent knowledge of this area.

I've been thinking of the two fights that Beowulf has had so far. Do you find one more interesting or more difficult? Is there anything unusual in Beowulf's fight with Grendel's mother?

OK, Grendel's mother is an ogre of some kind, but I almost sympathise with her need to retrieve her son's arm and to avenge his death.

What do you think?

Hi, Fae---I hope you are continuing to take care of your eyes. We just can't spare one of our eager readers around here. What do YOU think of these monsters, Grendel and his mother?

but where you thought of Davy Crockett I thought of Paul Bunyan and John Henry. "Giant sized" characters of immense strength that are part of our cultural history.

Here are a couple of excepts I found about one of the characters in the story:

"......... Hengest, who succeeds Hnaef as leader of the Half-Danes after a winter of discontent avenges Hnaef's death by killing Finn, king of the Frisians. It is almost certain that this Hengest, who also appears in 'The Finnesburh Fragment was the same Hengest who came to England with Horsa in AD449 at the invitation of King Vortigern to fight the Picts. The same Hengest who, as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle reports, then rounded on Vortigern and the Britons, won many battles, and instigated the Kingdom of Kent. As the first recorded Anglo-Saxon settler in England, this Hengest would have been of great interest to later Anglo-Saxon audience."

And another source says: "The hero Hengest is almost certainly the same Hengest who became the first Germanic king of Kent, so this poem is likely to have had a particular interest for an Anglo-Saxon audience."

The telling of this Saga is apparently part of the usual and expected entertainment in the mead hall. It is historical and would be part of the scop's job of passing on history to the audience. Also, it probably served to bolster "nationalism" or pride of heritage.

I really don't have a concrete reason to think so, more of just a feeling, but to tell this particular tale at this time seems to me to be a kind of portent, also. A kind of hidden warning that even though the times are good now with the defeat of Grendel and the restoration of Heorot, bad times are coming.

Phyll---Ah, most interesting. Hengest was a real person, 5th century (as I think Justin also mentioned), and the audience would have been familiar with him. So we, the contemporary audience, must puzzle our way whereas the original audience would have caught on immediately. Thanks for your research and the interesting background about Hengest.

I agree that there is a sense of foreboding that the tale of Finn provides. Just after the scop finishes the song, Wealtheow goes out of her way to stress to her lord, Hrothgar, that he must leave his kingdom to his sons. She also mentions his brother, Hrothwulf, adding that she is sure that Hrothwulf will do his best to protect her two sons, Hrethric and Hrothmund (as if we didn't already have quite enough names beginning with H!)

There's real foreshadowing of misfortune to come just after Wealtheow urges Beowulf to "Treat my sons/ with tender care, be stong and kind." As he describes the men drinking at the feast, the narrator says, "how could they know fate,/ the grim shape of things to come,/ the threat looming over many thanes." (1233-34)

I take this statement to foreshadow both the imminent attack of Grendel's mother as well as the problems that will occur after Hrothgar's death.

Yes, John Henry and Paul Bunyan will do just as well as Davy Crockett, especially John Henry about whom several songs have been written. I don't know if there are songs about Paul Bunyan and his (blue?) ox, Babe.

~Maryal

Interesting history. One of the things I noticed about Grendel's mother is that she does not hesitate to use weapons. But somehow, the sword that Beowulf took with him seems to be useless against her. The huge sword that he found in her house, on the other hand, is very effective. I guess she didn't put a spell on her own weapons.

I keep trying to puzzle out all this business about the weapons. Several times the poet describes "heirloom" weapons as though they held some special significance. Some of the swords are even given names, as if they had a personality and a reputation of their own. Of course, this is a warrior society, so weapons are important to them.

Maybe modern-day hunters wouldn't find this as strange as I do.

Shasta--You made me laugh with your observation that Grendel's mom probably didn't put a spell on her own weapons! Of course, she wouldn't need to, would she? And that huge sword Beowulf discovers in her den/lair/home is a trophy that she, or more likely her son, has brought back from some ancient battle.

Your observation about how important swords were at this time is also acute. Swords even had names! Look back at the tale of Finn and Hengest where Hengest's sword is (in Heaney's translation) wonderfully named. (I am at work and don't have the book with me so can't provide the exact name.)

King Arthur's sword was "Excalibur," and I think that Roland's sword had a name as well though I don't remember it.

Different times, different valued objects.

~Maryal

In one essay I read that the sword that Grendles mother had was inscribed with Runes telling the story of the "Great Flood" and that this sword was inherited by Grendles family, as they are the offspring of Cain and still live in the "Water". Of course the author of the essay wanted to make Grendle's mother into a devil incarnate . I went back an read that poem over and over and can not come to the conclusions that that fellow did. I do not find allusions to the flood or Cain. I have read so much now that it is difficult to just read the poem and say what I think anymore.

Beowulf is a reall Superman or perhaps he is just like Paul Bunyon. That seems a very good comparison to me.

Neither Bunyan nor Superman make good heros. There is no question in a quarrel, who will be the winner. Bunyan or Superman will win. We don't know this about Beowulf. He has flaws. He is human. He blames God for his faults. If he wins out in the end, he wins because he overcomes his faults and thus becomes a true hero. If we make him a Bunyan we make an automaton, not a man. It is through his humanity that he becomes heroic and godly. Compare Beowulf in this role to Jesus. Here is man who allows himself to be tested in the crucible of crucifixion, to overcome great pain to win out in the end. It is only because he is human that his sacrifice is meaningful. What use is it if a God is flogged and crucified. There is no pain, no vulnerability. It's a so what exercise for a god. But for a human, the process is meaningful and so it is with Beowulf. It is only as a human that he can rise to greatness. As Bunyan, his act is insignificant. But as Beowulf his act is magnificent.

Justin you are so right and give me a lot to think about regarding hero's. The struggle, the pain and the vunerabilities, all these do bring the hero to life.fr

Faith--I know exactly what you mean when you say you have read so many things about the poem that it is hard for you to see it. That has happened to me SO many times in studying literature. Sometimes the ideas of others get me thinking, but others intimidate me. And then there is the problem of thinking that everything has already been said about this poem, which is not accurate, just the way I sometimes feel.

Justin--Do you see Beowulf as a kind of Christ figure, or am I misreading your post? I don't see the element of loving-kindness in him. He seems very two-dimensional to me--he is the hero, not superhuman, but likely to triumph until he ages to the point that he has lost vitality.

I see a fair amount of fatalism in Beowulf along with a strong sense of how very short life is. For example, lines 1384-88:

...............It is always better
to avenge dear ones than to indulge in mourning.
For every one of us, living in this world
means waiting for our end. Let whoever can
win glory before death.

The highest goal seems to be establishing one's name as triumphant in battle. I wonder if the society had any other virtues. Do you see any other virtue that is admired and held up for others to imitate?

~Maryal

I see Beowulf as human just as I see Christ as human. Neither one are superhuman. If one reads the NT with care, one can recognize that it is the humanity of Christ that makes him a heroic figure. He speaks with humility but with authority. He is open and informative to the sanhedrin. He is taken, tried and convicts himself. He is flogged, taunted and crucified. He dies and is buried as a man. He is large in life not because he is superhuman but just the opposite, because he is human with human weaknesses. So too does Beowulf have human weaknesses. He is a warrior and he functions despite fear and occasional ineptness. He feeds on praise and draws strength from the compliments of those he protects. His warrior code is not so different from Bushido. Beowulf is Christ-like in his humanity but not necessarily in other characteristics. There is not much humility in Beowulf. However, it is his braggadocio that expresses his human weakness. He blames others for his errors-another human weakness. These are the things that enlarge his acomplishment. Without his humanity he would be just another comic book character.

Thanks, Justin, for that admirably clear answer. I agree with you that the heroic exists on the human level and that if an extraordinary power, or superpower, sets someone apart, that person --say Superman--can do heroic deeds, but cannot be a Human Hero. I am muddling myself trying to explain just what I mean, but I do understand what you are saying.

Where would you put Grendel and Grendel's mother? Grendel is surely not human, and yet also not the kind of superhuman that we admire. How are we to classify him? Why doesn't he win in the battle with Beowulf?

~Maryal

Hi there! You've been busy in here while I am climbing through the Scottish Highlands through ancient castle ruins and tracing my husband's outlawed MacGregor clans through one bloody battle after another. And talk about beheadings!

Shasta, I have fingered enough mail and examined it to say with confidence that what you see on the book cover in the heading is the BACK of Beowulf's head. And also the mail is light enough to ...well, maybe it's light enough to swim in.Ha! Aren't you stunned that Beowulf has to go under that mere to find Grendel's mere? I realize that I have to suspend my tendency to be literal here...as our hero swims to the bottom ...taking the better part of the day to get there. Now, why is he going so hevily armed to fight mama when he met Grendel bare handed...

Off to London tomorrow to have a look at the manscript. We never made it to Iona...listen, here's a tip. Never visit Scotland in March! We need to come back to Iona when the roads aren't flooded, and the gales settle.

If you have the paperback Norton edition there is a map that shows where those Frisians lived. Here's a hint at what is tying those songs together...Sigemund, Finn, Hrothgar...and finally Beowulf. All the uncles and nephews! I was particularly interested in Hrothgar's nephew...Weahltheow thinks that his nephew will be kind and fair to Hrothgar's two sons if he dies before they are old enough to become king...if you look closely there are lots of nephew/uncle relationships. Also indications that aging kings don't always age well...glory goes to their heads. And yet the message is to achieve glory before death! Another mixed message, eh Justin!

This probably doesn't make sense...I'm in a busy, busy Internet parlour in Edinburgh with the clock ticking.

Just want you to know that I am thinking about you and will be home in a few days to closely read your posts when there is time. This is craaaaazy!

Love,
Joan

Joan takes the time to post to us all even though she is still on her trip following the trail of her husband's ancient ancestors who apparently spent some time either being beheader or beheading, pehaps both!

Thanks, Joan, for examining that chain link armor. I still don't believe the five days swim wearing said chain mail (and fighting off heaven knows how many sea creatures with sword). Beowulf certainly has more endurance than I ever had, and I have been a swimmer most of my life. But five days and nights and then sea monsters!

I can't get over the wonder of the Internet. Joan "pops" in just to say HI from another part of the world and we can all read it in our various parts of the world. WOW.

I was amused by Joan's question about fighting Grendel bare-handed, but going after his mother with a sword. I think the answer is that men think of battle as a kind of sport or game, but women don't. So if you have to fight with a woman, you'd better take it seriously because they don't play by the rules.

Shasta---Thanks for a late evening chuckle. So, you think that it takes more than bare hands to fight an enraged mother.........maybe Beowulf is just such a gentleman that he wouldn't put his hands on a woman, even if she is a monster.

I'm kidding, of course. They have quite a tumble before he finally does her in.

maryal

It seems to me that "Beowulf" is composed of three layers. The surface layer contains the Christian additions. Beneath that is the pagan epic of a warrior culture. And beneath that is the mythological level. The pagans were a civilized people who could construct ships and buildings, and make armor and weapons; and they struggled against the savage forces of nature that threatened to overwhelm them. Their struggle was infused with the ancient water myths. Beowulf's ancestor arrived as a baby in a ship on the ocean. This is a version of the birth myth, similar to the birth of Moses. All life emerges from water. And water remains the symbol for natural forces in all their creative and destructive capacities. The sea-monsters represent the terrors of the unknown, and Beowulf the Swimmer is the hero who is willing to pit his strength against this unknown waterworld. His manmade weapons are useless against the sea-monsters, just as reason and logic are often useless against terror. But he discovers a huge weapon from the time of the giants-- some ancient defense mechanism buried deep in the human psyche, the survival instinct perhaps.

For me, the mythic level makes more sense than the other two. The Christian elements are simply not convincing. Do you think those Danes and Geats knew what it meant to turn the other cheek? They would have turned the other edge of their sword, just as most of us would do today. And without the mythic explanation of their actions, all their exaggerations are not convincing either. Did they really believe a man could swim underwater for hours without oxygen? They were seafaring people; they knew better than that.

Shasta---Well thought out and argued, and I have to agree with you. I'm not exactly seafaring, but I am a swimmer and I know the water. If I heard a story about a man swimming for five days in full armor, with sword (never mind the sea monsters) I'd KNOW that I was listening to the tale of a legendary hero that had no doubt been blown out of proportion over the time of telling. I think the original audiences must also have known.

Beowulf was such a hero, too good and strong to believe, but one that young warriors might want to BE like. If a young thane could manage to come even close to Beowulf's courage, he would be doing very well.

As for the Christian elements, they seem perfectly OK if attributed not to all those original legends about Beowulf, but to the monk who wrote the one surviving manuscript. If we had other written accounts, we could compare and contrast them, but this is the only manuscript that has survived so all is speculation. I agree with you that Beowulf himself lived in pre-Christian times and I certainly see no evidence of God's lovingkindness in the poem. I am not questioning the monk's faith, but the material he was dealing with simply didn't lend itself to a fully Christian worldview.

Fate is strong in the poem. According to the teller, "God" determines the outcome, but you might just as easily attribute the outcomes to Fate. People don't know what this Fate is, but it is set. Life is brutal, short, and the best one can do is to leave a name for bravery behind him. I'm not sure what the best women can do except to serve as treaty-binders and mead servers. And providers of the next generation of thanes.

~Maryal

In Heaney's translation she is a Swamp -thing from hell, a hag. The scandanavian definition of "hag " is that of a crippled woman. A hag is also a devil, a demon, an incubus. It is also a way to describe the stroke of a sword. It is a transitive verb meaning "to chop". I think Heaney has "demon" in mind and not "a crippled woman." What, exactly, is a demon, a swamp-thing from hell.? Webster 3 tells us a demon is a superhuman being, below a god but believed to be capable if inhabiting and actuating the bodies of men.In Greek myth a demon is a supernatural being whose nature is intermediate between that of a god and that of a man. This is not necessarily a pagan thing. The devil is part of the Christian myth. Lucifer (the devil), is described as a bad angel and an angel 's nature is not clear. It is not a god and not a man but an indeterminate entity. When we know what Grendel's mom is we will know Grendel's nature.

Justin--Your post got me thinking about what to call Grendel's mom. Heaney uses "hag," which you provide many definitions for although you omit the one that leaps immediately to my mind which is old witch (or maybe old mean woman).

The two nouns I think of to name Grendel's mom, as well as Grendel himself, are ogre and monster. There's even a feminine form of ogre, ogress. Ogres are huge and man-eating. Monsters are less specific, but generally there is some physical deformity to mark a monster.

You point out that it would help us to know what Grendel's mother is in order to understand him, and I agree. However, he has another parent who seems to be out of the equation completely. Who on earth would Grendel's father have been? And is there a female out there for Grendel to marry? (I am assuming, of course, that he has not yet been dispatched by Beowulf.)

Maryal

Grendels mother, an offspring of Cains, appears to be a monster, a huge being but who looks human. Baowulf, deep in the mere sees firelight shine in a brilliant flame. He sees the monster of the deep the mighty mere-woman, where she has dragged him The sea wolf who bore the armored warrior down to her dwelling at the bottom where many sea beasts cut him and tried to pierce his armor. He couldnt cut her so he went for her with his bare hands again.So they fought in hand to hand combat at the bottom of the mere. He became angry and resoulute He who had fought for the Danes finally took his sword again to her neck and her bone rings broke.

She is conquered . His sword was still sharp so he cut off Grendles head. So He has really done them in now. These creatures from some other world, one who looked like woman and the other warped into the shape of a man but bigger than any man, one who had an unnatural birth. The villagers say these are both fartherless things.unholy, unnatural, When the mother monster takes up her monster sons fight she seals her own doom.Baowulf has defeated the swamp things from hell.

He goes home in triumph with Grendles head on a pike big enough for four men. It is horrifing sight to the queen and all the company .

I am now thinking that Baowulf is much more than a human himself. He does fantastic feats like swimming to the bottom of the mere in full armor and staying down there to do all this dirty work. Let alone when he swam five days with his buddy. We will be bound to get into more adventures too. I am waiting though this fight was pretty nasty and maybe the next stanza's will be pretty violent too. Faith

Faith--M'dear you are a poet. You have such a way with words that it takes my breath away. You described Grendel and his mother as "These creatures from some other world, one who looked like woman and the other warped into the shape of a man but bigger than any man, one who had an unnatural birth. They say these are both fatherless things."

That's exactly how I see these two, both of them "warped" into shapes of man and woman and huge. They are both "fatherless." What a terrific thought.

Maryal

Line 1265 gives us a clue to the nature of Grendel and his Mom. Are they human? " And from Cain there sprang misbegotten spirits, among them Grendel, the banished and accursed..." The OT tells us Cain's first born was Enoch and several generations later we come to Lamech who marries two women and is a killer of two men. We learn no more of Cain. However, one thing is certain, Cain and his progeny are human. Some were mean spirits but all were human. Can we assume less for Grendel and his Mom who flow from the same loins?

Is the battle scene underwater? There are mixed clues in the poem. Line 1444 says his ..".mail would soon meet with the menace under water." and line 1449 says," his...helmet that was due to be muddied on the mere bottom..." Line 1493 we find the Geat "plunging ... he dived into the heaving depths of the lake". Line 1495, "it was the best part of the day before he could see the solid bottom." Each of these lines point to an underwater battle. However, there is one line that points to a dry ground fight. Line 1531: " He flung his sword away... the keen steel was hurled to the ground." This phrase might be a mistranslation by Heaney . I wonder what Heaney says about it. Line 1568 "... she fell to the floor." Where is the scene of battle?

There must be substantial differences in some translations. In the Heaney translation of the fight scene, Hrunting fails to penetrate and so Beowulf finds a sword in the armory of Grendel's mom, an heirloom of the giants, which severs her neck. In Faith's translation defeat comes from "his" sword (Hrunting). Which translation are you reading, Faith.

I like the phrase "bone-rings" for vertebrae. It seems that the fatherless condition of the swamp-creatures is a real indictment against them. The Danes and Geats set great store by ancestry. They always described a man by stating who his father was and what sort of man he was. To have no known father was to be worthless, and non-human.

Grendel is fatherless only in the sense that no father (except for the Cain chain) is mentioned in the poem. We all know it takes two to tango-an ogre and an ogress.

I can not see the monsters of the mere as true humans at all therefor, Justin, and therefor need not have had "two too tango". Of course I realize that Grendles mother is grieving and out of her mind with pain when she attacts the hall and carries off the warrior. She needs revenge, human or not..

I was a little sloppy yesterday Justin. I should have said which sword Baowulf resorted to at the end. By the way I am reading three translations. Heaney's, which I have in a nice book edition with many essays included.Then I go on line a lot to check other sources.fr

I'm reading three translations too, Justin, and there is a lot of variation among them. Obviously, all the translators do not attempt literal translation from the original manuscript, but tend to interpret the story in their own way. In the Norton translation, Grendel's mother has a house under the sea:

"Then the earl saw that he was in some hostile hall where no water harmed him at all, and the flood's onrush might not touch him because of the hall-roof. He saw firelight, a clear blaze shine bright."

All these different translations we are reading makes it a little difficult for us to discuss the poem.

Shasta, if we are going line by line but I think it makes it more interesting to see how each translator interprets the OE into modern English. I think the Heaney trans. is very readable and gives a good flow to the story line of Beowulf but I also think that his choice of some Irish idioms can make a subtle change in the interpretation---sort of skewing the picture just a little. I find that I almost like the Breeden translation more than the Heaney because he states that he translated in free verse and was not "forced into adding words or changing meaning for the sake of formal meter or rhyme."

I find that personally I am more interested in the Beowulf as a story, or legend, than I am in Beowulf as a poem with its alliteration and meter.

I suppose the content of a poem is always more important than its mechanics--the rhyme and meter. I have sometimes wondered why the human mind so delights in the repetition of sound, that is--repetition with variation. Whether it's alliteration or end-rhymes, it appeals to us. But why does it? Meter probably appeals to us because we like sound to be regulated and patterned, rather than chaotic.

Who knows why rhyme appeals so much? I know that my kids both loved all the Christopher Robin poems when they were little, and my daughter STILL knows about eight or ten of them by heart. I think most little kids are delighted by rhyme.

I know that I most appreciate rhyme in a poem when it is not obvious, when there are some off-rhymes and near rhymes and when the sense is not interrupted in order to get a rhyming word in. I've always thought that poetry that rhymes goes best in a language like French where about half the words rhyme! That's an exaggeration of course. But English has real problems with rhyme. There's no rhyming word for "orange" for example, and there are lots of others that have only a few.

I do think that I would have really loved Beowulf chanted with those four strong stresses to a line though. I love stress and rhythm.

Top o'the Mornin' to ye! Is it a misting, celtic morning where you live? To hear Seamus Heaney read his words with his Irish not-quite-brogue, you do hear the poetry, I do believe. More on him - and poetry.

We march the parade with the Irish Terrier brigade down Constitution Ave. in DC each year, rain or shine. She's full-blown right now and needs a good stripping before she goes public. My hair needs the same treatment...will not relax after two weeks in the wind and rain. A permanent wind-blown look! Also the kids are coming for dinner and I have yet to buy the corned beef and make the soda bread. I have four hours. Should be able to do it as long as I don't stay attached to this computer. It is so good to be back!

Listen, don't ever visit the Scottish Highlands in March. The wind! Gales! Rain off and on all day, every day! Our much-anticipated trip out to the island of Iona had to be scratched...gales were 70 miles an hour, the roads to the ferry flooded, and well, maybe next time.

We left the wind behind in Scotland, but the rain and "cloud" followed us to London. The weatherman never refers to "clouds"...at first I thought he was referring to one cloud that was following Bruce and me through the UK.

In London, I did get to visit the British Library and I would like to share with you some of what I saw, before getting back to your poetry discussion. You have made some very thought-provoking comments in my absence, which I'd like to address too. Am not quite ready to move on to Beowulf's trip home to Geatland yet. If it's all right with you, I'd like to delay that discussion for a few days...

Before going to the British Library, we visited the City of London Museum. What impressed me most there was the Great Fire of 1666, which wiped out most of the city. You don't see old buildings built before that date as you do outside the city. But they rebuilt, with wood, and much of the city burned again...and again.

So it was not surprising that the Beowulf manuscript was burned; the surprising thing is that it survived at all! I don't know where I got the impression that the fire had taken place while Sir Robert Cotton had it in his possession, but he donated the manuscript to the city of London in 1700, (not long after the horrendous fire of 1666) and the fire that scorched its edges and left it brittle took place in 1731. Much damage was caused by the water used to put the fire out.

The manuscript continued to deteriorate until 1845 when Frederic Madden, the British Museum's Keeper of Manuscripts, had each damaged vellum leaf mounted in separate paper frames, and then rebound these frames in book-form. More damage. Some of the frames were made of acidic paper, which is now discoloring and obscuring the text it was meant to preserve; and all of the paper frames cover parts of text along the damaged edges. That's what I saw in the case at the British Library.

as on display in British Library (up close)

another view of the appearance of the Beowulf manuscript as it appears on display

Well, not exactly...I have more photos of the bound copy as I saw it...but there's more, so much more. Need to get the soda bread baking and will be back with the really exciting part!

Have a fine day, everyone!

It's good to have you back safe and sound and even with curly hair! When you said that you were going out to Iona I DID wonder. In March? I even told my husband that I hoped you had packed your woolies. <grin> We were out on the Outer Hebrides in late Sept. one time and then in Edinburgh in early October and we nearly froze! Still we loved every minute of it. But I know it was a disappointment to not get out to Iona--that is something I have always wished that we could have done, too. When I worked in a small library branch in upstate NY we had a patron--a Scottish man--who had worked on the restoration of the abbey at Iona. Spent umpteen years there in all kinds of conditions and told us so many stories about it. He said it eventually ruined his health and he could no longer work and had come to NY to live with his daughter. He missed Scotland so much---I loaned him all my books that I had dragged back from the various trips there and he devoured every word. For some reason his favorite was our bound copy of the AA Guide to Britain. He loved following every road through every little village, town and city in Scotland. It made him very homesick, I'm afraid.

Bring on the ale cup, the harp and the Scop , who likes to touch the joys of men with shadows. I have returned feeling somewhat like Sigemund warring in the Waelsing, quelling the "serpent-beast." In my case it's been a bad week of ashtmatic bronchitis, on steroids and uglier than any Grendel ever thought of being. I could have used Beowulf myself this week , trudging into the bleak regions of physician-dom. I've felt like poor Grendel's mama: This to thee I promise: She'll refuge in no rest- Neither in earth's bosom nor in hill-forest, Nor in sea-bottom, wheresoe'er she go! For this day have patience in thine every woe.

I could have used the mercy of our hero's sword which was found in the hall of the Mere-wife. (anything to stop that incessant cough.)

The Bold one of the Scylding he seized its belted haft; and, battle-grim and savage, the ringed blade he drew; and of his life all hopeless, in fury smote so true That it gripped her sorely unto the neck. oho! And brake in twain its bone-rings. The sword was keen to go... (that would do it!!)

Happy St. Pattys day to ya'll.

IBM-- Irish by marriage

Andy

Happy Homecoming Joan AND Alf!! Today's mead is specially colored in celebration of St. Patrick's Day. Everyone is Irish today. Bring on the scop, the harp, the mead, and let us all celebrate the return of our friends!

Maryal, if you like off-rhymes, you could use 'courage' or 'porridge.' How's this?

As I sat eating my morning porridge, The sun rose like a great big orange.

Hmmmmmm---off-rhymes. Way off! However, there are possibilities:

Slicing an orange,
she stood thinking
Her brother's courage
came from drinking

I don't think it likely that I will ever write a true poem. Sigh.

My mother's bit of shared Ireland -

May his pipe never smoke, may his teapot be broke
And to add to the joke, may his kettle neÕer boil,
May he keep to the bed till the hour that heÕs dead,
May he always be fed on hogwash and boiled oil,
May he swell with the gout, may his grinders fall out,
May he roll howl and shout with the horrid toothache,
May the temples wear horns, and the toes many corns,
Of the monster that murdered Nell FlahertyÕs drake.

So glad you are back Joan - and great photos as well - what a treat.

Nice to know you are with us again,Joan. If the Beowulf manuscript is bordered in acid prone paper, the British Library should not be trusted with these documents. So many precious documents are so badly treated in the world I wonder any have survived in our trust.

O'mgosh, Andy, we didn't know you were ill! You were missed. Your comments always get right to the point! Happy you are back for the last third of the poem. Don't overdo...isn't that what you always tell us, nursie?

Phyll, we need to go back to Scotland, to Iona to that abbey together... that's where the Book of Kells was created before it was taken to Ireland for safekeeping. But let's go in July or August...

Oh, Shasta, I'm going to have to send you some of my poetry. You are the only one who might appreciate it. Still smiling after your rhyming "orange" and "porridge"....hahahaha...

The mead hits the spot this cold night, rainy night, Maryal. Just keep pouring and we'll love your poetry too! We did get downtown to the St. Patty's day parade...in the rain. Only 20 Irish Terriers showed up this year...but I don't know how many parades my little red dog has left in her...so we marched.

Barbara, love it! Didn't know about your Irish mither...my Irish grandmither's favorite...

May those who love us love us.
And those that donÕt love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesnÕt turn their hearts,
May he turn their ankles,
So weÕll know them by their limping.

Hello, Justin. I have some more information on the manuscript...was about to post now until I was distracted by these posts...will put it up in a minute, but you know, I don't know if those acid paper frames are still eating into the original document? Why didn't I ask someone? On second thought, after questioning some of those who were available when I was there, I don't think they'd have an answer. Will try to find something about it. I think you'll find the next bit of information interesting though...more interesting photos too, Barb...

Justin raises an important question...are those acidic frames still attached to the Beowulf manuscript? I'm wondering how they were applied. If they were pasted on, well, that's trouble. If they were not, then no problem. I'm afraid there's a problem. Here's why.

The Beowulf manuscript remained in those 1845 white frames which obscured letters on both sides...until The British Library began the Electronic Beowulf project in 1993, using the latest light technology ~ and a digital camera was used to record images of the obscured letters and letter-fragments to restore hidden letters beneath the frames. If the frames were removable, wouldn't they have done so?

The editor of the project is Professor Kevin S. Kiernan of the University of Kentucky who according to the British Library is "the world's leading authority on the history of the Beowulf manuscript." Maybe I should write to him, what do you think? I could invite him in to talk to us about this!

Here's the way it looks in the exhibition on display in the British Library...bound like an old book with thick, rippled pages...see the two bottom frames? That's what the exhibited version in the British Library looks like. Perhaps this is Professor Kiernan (in the bottom right frame) giving the manuscript the light treatment...

photos of the bound Beowulf manuscript as it appears in the British Library

Now anyone can examine each page by using the electronic version...including closeups of the color and texture of the vellum leaves. Look at this...this fragment blew my mind. First look at all that remained of this particular page, and then look below at what can be seen using the light technology.

some really severe damage

There's only one more installment of the British Library exhibit...and I want to thank you all for bearing with me...but I took all these notes and do want to share them with you. The final one is the best. That's why I'm saving it for last. In the morning. I haven't looked at the newspapers yet since getting home on Friday morning...

So.

There was the manuscript in the case in the Treasures Exhibition of the British Library. And right beside it, a page of Seamus Heaney's translation. I love that "so" as a starter for the story. It's as if I entered the room as the scop was in the middle of his tale...summarizing what had gone on before.

So. Do you find it exciting that of all the translations of Beowulf done over the ages, the British Library chose Heaney's translation to accompany the oldest piece of British Literature that there is? There is a statement with the exhibit ...I copied it:

"Heaney's poem faithfully captures all the power and sublety of the original but with a vernacular drawn from his deeply rooted Irish word hoard."

Beside the exhibit, there is a phone aparatus with which you can listen to a reading, not of the Old English, but a passage from Heaney's translation! You can hear the poetry, Shasta...the repetition of sounds, each word contributing to the enhancement of the meaning...it seems to be part of a whole fabric. The intonation, the stress, the alliteration, all working together to convey the drama of the story...it was the Grendel battle I listened to.

I think that this experience was all the more meaningful because I saw the manuscript at the end of the trip, after climbing through old castles and abbeys from the 12th century...seeing Roman walls from much earlier.

And then in Stratford upon Avon, while visiting Holy Trinity Church where Shakespeare is buried, the docent explained the history of the church (I drove every guide crazy with questions about all of the old churches and abbeys). She tossed out the comment that

there had been a chuch on this site since the 7th century...that Beowulf is said to have granted sanctions, protection to the early church on this very spot.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing! As soon as I got home, I searched for information on this...and can't get my search engines to cooperate.

Then, while there...on March 14th, the British National Trust opened the burial mounds to the public...in Suffolk. ~ The Sutton Hoo burial mound, said by many to be the burial mounds of the "Wuffings"...Beowulf's?

I'm very interested in Beowulf as an historical figure...as well as our super hero of the poem, who is a man at the same time. There is proof that his uncle, Hygelac actually lived.

There was much talk that the tale of Beowulf is really Hrothgar's tale. I have been thinking about that...but since I haven't really read all of Beowulf closely yet, will reserve comment on that.

Getting really close to releasing you from my travel tales. It is time to get back to the plot, I agree. I have some comments on your posts and some questions for you on Grendel's mother before we go back to Geatland. We're almost there...

Mead, Maryal, I'm afraid I've talked myself out of breath. Aren't you glad you aren't my husband. I have been going on about this since the first week of March!

Joan does your husband like the history of Beowulf as much as we do? I for one love reading your adventure over there. I think we could buy a reading of Heanleys translation. I love the old English so much ( it reminds me of Monks chants) that I am going to look for a recording ...faith

Wonderful absolutly wonderful Joan - a church at Stratford since the 7th century - oh my - you have shared so much and it is all just wonderful! Thanks

I looked it up and this is what I found: "A Church on the banks of the Avon in Stratford is first mentioned in the charter of 845, signed by Beorhtwulf (Bertulf), King of Mercia. This would have been a wooden construction. It is very likely that the Normans replaced this with a stone building but no trace of either remains. The present limestone building was begun in 1210 and was built in the shape of a cross."

The docent had better clear up her diction, don't you think?

BTW, Holy Trinity is in a beautiful site. Wish I could see it. As for going to Iona with you---that would be a wonderful thing but I'm afraid my international travel days are past. Just can't tolerate the long, long plane flights anymore. I'll just enjoy Iona vicariously through your eyes when you do get there.

After defeating his enemy Beowulf took no treasure from the cave except the head and the hilt decorated with treasure. The blade, the ornamented sword burned up "so hot was the blood, so poisonous the alien spirit who die there."

His fourteen thanes marched him back to the hall after an anxious wait for him to swim to the top of the mere, And then Beoulf told healfdene "we have brought you with pleasure the sea booty, as token of glory, which you see here." He wanted everyone to see the beautiful old might sword which burned up as the blood sprang. He only had the hilt which had runes in gold round the sword guard telling the story of the great seas rushing in and destroying the giants.

He has to listen to Hrothgar s lecture and gets so sleepy he wants now only to go home. Baowulf is not so interested in treasure it seems as he is in acclaim. And owning this sword hilt makes him the most famous of warriors. fr

hahaha...and the long lines are worse now, Phyll...with the searching. Only had to take my shoes off once though...here.

Well, then, here's a pretty postcard of Holy Trinity Church, where Shakespeare is buried...17 feet down as stipulated in his will. The reason he did this is because the custom at the time was to bury two to three feet down, and the bones were soon close to the surface. Then they would dig them up and bury others two to three feet down. I thought this interesting...since we are talking about cremations in the poem. When the bones were dug up, they were put into a huge bone fire...thus the word, "bonfire" came into being.

Thanks for hunting up that information on the Beowulf connection to Trinity Church, Phyll ...I won't blame that 200 year error on the docents diction though...but rather on my sketchy memory...and scribbled notes. Now I remember what she said. That on the site of Holy Trinity, there had stood a church since the 600's...that tokens, icons of worship had been found in previous escavations...and then she added that Beowulf had even sanctionned a church on that very spot...But now we have the ressssssssst of the story.

Speaking of burials... look here...a friend just emailed this article to me...
Sutton Hoo

Did you scroll down that page...and see who opened the new exhibit last week? Our boy, Seamus! It is a small, small world, isn't it?

Fae, you asked if Bruce likes the history of Beowulf as much as we do? He doesn't have much choice, does he? hahahah...let's say that he is more interested now than he was before. He has a very inquisitive mind so I think that he is getting there...

I'm going to spend this afternoon...starting right now, trying to catch up to you all in the poem intself. This morning I printed out all of your posts since March 3 and want to get to them by the end of the day. Then I think I'm finally caught up and will turn to that fantastic sword and its origins...wonder where that is now, Fae?

Joan---That's a most interesting article on Sutton Hoo complete with a color photo of Seamus Heaney, our translator, himself. He speaks highly of spending lottery money on such a worthy project. I would love to visit Sutton Hoo myself, preferably on a nice warm day.

Faith--Our hero does seem far more interested in establishing his Name rather than in accumulating the tokens of everyone's thankfulness. More power to him. He wouldn't be a hero in my eyes if the prize meant more to him than the glory.

Maryal...I'm ready! Let's go! What gets me is that the exhibition opened while I was not too far from there. I could have seem Seamus Heaney! You can bet I'd have bent his ear!!!

Rushing to get in some observations Out of breath, but determined to catch up with you all.

Elements of the two seemingly irrelevent songs of Sigemund and Finn....will resurface as we go along.

As Phyll pointed out, the scop's comparison of Beowulf to Sigemund who killed a dragon, raises Beowulf to the epic hero category. There are also references to Beowulf's uncle Hygelac ...Beowulf says he wants the glory and considerable riches he has earned to go to uncle Hygelac back in Geatland.

That's something else in the song of Sigemund that struck me...the uncle/nephew thing and the glory that goes to a king. Sigemund usually fought with his nephew, Fitela, at his side...but when he fought the dragon, he did so alone. All the glory goes to Sigemund - no glory goes to King Heremod. We're told that this king had stopped gift-giving and was therefore unable to raise support to protect the Danes any longer. He had become "evil". Generosity is really an important quality in a king. There's a warning here, I think. Phyll, I see you felt it too. We'll hear more about Heremod.

Maryal thanks for straightening out all those relationships in the song of Finn. Another uncle and nephew. A sad story of revenge...another important motivation at this time. Of all times, I guess. Thanks so much for all the good information on the Frisians. Who knew? And current events too...thanks Justin!

Finn marries a Dane and they have a son. Her brother, Hnaef is visiting Finn's hall and a battle arises because of another old grudge ...and both Finn's son and his uncle Hnaef are killed. Big gory cremation in which the uncle and nephew are bound together in the flames.

I could not help but notice the many nephew/uncle relationships. There appears to be a message in each. The kings...who once knew great glory, don't do well in the end. And yet the message seems to be the importance of acquiring great glory during one's lifetime.

I was struck by the fact that that both King Hrothgar and his nephew, Hrothwulf greatly enjoyed hearing the song of Finn, and seemed to take no warning from it, though there is talk about Hrothwulf being "fair" to Hrothgar's two sons if Hrothgar doesn't live to raise them. "...how could they know the grim shape of things to come?" Maryal, I felt this "grim shape" is more than Grendel's mother's attack, but that there may be trouble in the household with that nephew.

Wealhtheow goes out of her way to encourage Hrothgar to entrust the care of her sons to her nephew. Hrothgar wants to adopt Beowulf as a son? Will there be trouble between these two?

I guess the relationships between kings, their brothers, and sons were of great importance at the time...when you consider the succession and the disposition of their great wealth.

Hmmm...I gather from reading back through all of your posts that I am the only one who looks at fatherless Grendel...as the son of Satan? No "two doing this tango", Justin. As Shasta says, to have "no known father was to be worthless, and non-human." So, this would put him in the Superhuman category, wouldn't it?

Grendel's mother...hmmm, I guess I see her the same way..."two misbegotten spirits sprung from Cain. They are both giants, aren't they? Like the Cyclops of the Aenead. Faith caught the description of Grendel's mother as a " sea wolf, who bore the armored warrior down to her dwelling at the bottom." Heaney's translation refers to her as a "wolfish swimmer." Then there was this:

"They are fatherless creatures
and their whose ancestry is hidden in the past
of demons and ghosts. They dwell apart
among wolves on the hills, on windswept crags..."

What did you make of this? Does "wolf" fit into your mental picture of these giants? If not, why the repetition of "wolf" I wonder...

I had not thought about a similarity to wolves until you posted the lines. There maybe a connection. Wolves are destructive, rapacious, ravenous, predators. Don't those words describe Grendel and his Mom? Wolves pick off the unwary straggler. Grendel ravenously feasts on Hrothgar's men and Grendel's mom rapaciously attacks the sleeping Geat (while harbouring a human quality-revenge). We have here evil characters who are wolfish, giant, fatherless, nonhumans with human gualities, who live in deep, bubbling water pools hidden in overgrown brush.

The Grendels (mom and son) are also giants. Giants, as I recall, attacked the gods of Greek Olympus and were defeated by the gods with the aid of a human. Beowulf's counterpart? Images of giants appear on the walls of the recreated Pergamun in Berlin and also on a Greek temple either on the pediment or one of the metapes. I just can't remember which one, at the moment.

Justin, I just this moment came across another "wolf" ~about line 1600...

"It was clear to many
that the wolf of the deep had destroyed him forever."

Do you suppose that all these references to wolves are there to emphasize the ravenous nature of this animal...or is there some additional connection to wolves that we are missing?

I'm just about through with my notes. "Just about" will be good enough. I feel caught up after this one ~you'll be happy to hear! hahahaha...thanks for putting up with me! Patience!

Most of all, I loved your discussions about Beowulf himself....because they provided so much insight into his character...and really made him come alive.

It's funny reading Faith's comment..." I'm thinking that Beowulf is much more that a human himself" ~ that would make him Superhuman...Superman? And I'm saying that he now seems so much more human than the superhero he could very well be. And yet he is.. both of those, ?sn't he? Human and yet so much more than the average human. As Faith says, his struggles, his pain, his vulnerabilities...all bring the hero to life.

Justin, I like your description of Beowulf...and Christ, as human ~and that which makes them "human" is what makes them both heroic figures. It works for me. Yet both are so much more than human at the same time. As you point out too, Justin, Beowulf is Christ-like in some ways, but not all. He sins in the Christian sense...pride seems not to be a fault in the pagan-warrior society. Beowulf seems to have one leg in the non-Christian past and the other in elementary Christianity.

He says he owes his success to God, but seems to really believe it is his own strength and determination that pulls him through. Never does he drop to his knees with a prayer of thanks. His spiritual guides...dreams of fame and glory. These will pull him through. He is willing to sacrifice his life for the Danes, yet he takes great precautions when going to fight the old hag. I think he's afraid, not so much of the woman, but because of where he is going...into the unknown. He'll risk it, but he does know fear.

He is pagan at the threshold of Christianity, as Christ was Jewish at the threshhold of Christianity. Not completely one or the other. At least that's how it appears to me.

Maryal, I can think of the one example of real kindness you are looking for in Beowulf. How about his treatment of Unferth? I still don't fully understand Unferth...am hoping we'll learn more about him before we are through...."Unferth was admired by all for his mind and courage although under a cloud for killing his brothers."

Now murder...especially murdering one's own brothers...should put him into the Cain category...and I'm wondering what the mitigating circumstances are that allow him to be living amidst the Danes, "admired for his mind..."

At any rate, Unferth presents Beowulf with his own sword...Hrunting, the blade of which will prove worthless against the old woman, leaving Beowulf virtually defenseless. Beowulf accepts Hrunting, gives Unferth his own trusted sword and when he returns, blames himself for not being able to "bring it to bear" in battle. I don't understand why this kind gesture to Unferth, but there it was...

So now all we need to do is figure out where the ancient sword came from...and what those runes will reveal. Blade is gone...melted when it touched the she-devil, but the golden hilt survived. I forget...did Beowulf give it to Hrothgar, or keep it for Uncle Hygelac?

Then was the golden hilt, the ancient work of giants, given to the hand of the aged warrior, the grey haired leader.The possession of it, the wondrous work of smiths, passed , after the deaths of demons , to the king of the Danes. With Grendle and his mother dead the hilt passed into the power of Hrothgar. The hilt was an old heirloom on which was written in ancient runes the story of the flood which with rushing sea slew the race of giants with terrible suffering. Also on the sword guard bright with gold was rightly written in rune letters, set and said for whom the sword had been wrought this choicest of iron with twisted hilt and snake ornaments. from Breeden translation Now the possessor-Hrothgar examined the Hilt,the relic of old times.It was engraved all over and showed how war first came into this world and the flood destroyed the tribe of giants.Heaney translation So I am satisfied that the sword hilt remained with the King of Danes. I dont think any one translates the runes to tell the name of who the sword was made for. Somewhere in some literature I have read of the great flood sent by God to kill off the race of giants that were ungodly? dont know what I am remembering. Fae

The giants were those in the earth with Noah when God decided upon the flood to wipe out his human errors. The stories of the OT were orally transmitted until late in the fourth century BCE when writing became the mode. The story of the giants made it into the canon. Where did it come from? Was it in the early Torah or did it first appear in the Septuagint. If it first appeared in the Greek Septuagint, it might have come from the Greek stories of the giants who fought the gods on Olympus and were defeated with the help of a human. How then did it come to the writers of Beowulf? The Danes probably did not have access to the OT. But the monks who reduced Beowulf to writing might well have had access to the OT. If they did have access it was undoubtedly to the Greek Septuagint or the Jerome collection from the Septuagint.

Damacene refers to the decoration in gold on a steel shaft and hilt of a sword. It is of the same root as Damask the decorated cloth. It may come from Damascus which was renowned in the ancient world as home to sword makers of high quality.

Noah and his family are said to be the only survivors of the flood of genesis.I think that lets out Grendel and his Mom. But let us speculate that the Alexandrian Seventy are responsible for inserting the Giant story into Genesis, then the picture changes. Grendel and his Mom might be decendants of the Greek giants.

Justin's posts bring us back to the Flood in Genesis again, and they bring me to a problem I have with Grendel and his Mom being descendents of Cain. Since, as Justin points out, everyone except for Noah and his family was wiped out in the Great Flood, and Noah was not a descendent of Cain, then all the descendents of Cain were wiped out in the flood.

Although we could look to the Greek gods as explanation for the references to giants--or beings of giantic proportion--there is no evidence of the influence of Greek mythology in the poem so I find that unlikely.

I think we just have to accept Grendel and his mother as ogres who have no real origin except for the imagination of human beings.

the allusion to Grendel and his sweet and charming mother as being accepted literally. I think of it as a dramatic reference made by the story teller (or inserted by the transcriber at a later date). Just as we might say in these times that someone whom we really don't like is "from hell". I know that I don't think that person is actually from hell but is so rotten mean they could fit the requirements for the inhabitants of hell. When Grendel and his mother are described as descendants of Cain it is merely to point out how really monstrous these two are and not be taken literally to mean that they are actually descended in lineage from Cain. We have to keep in mind that the original story was told as dramatically as possible in order to gain and keep the attention of what was probably a largely illiterate audience. And then later, if the reference to Cain was an insertion, it was used as the worst possible condemnation by a religious scribe....to be a descendant of Cain was to be a really, really bad dude. <grin>

>hahaha....Phyll, sort of like the way I describe myself ..."the mother-in-law from hell'"

I agree, there are many different levels for interpretation going on here...even among ourselves here...as amongst scholars. I do think it is interesting to examine where these references can lead us ...

Giants and hell and progeny of Satan....are found throughout literature...the Bible, (David and Goliath), Paradise Lost, the Aeniad (Cyclops) I'd like to know more about them ~~ And their connection with the great flood. If Grendel and mom are survivors of the flood, then this watery environment makes sense.

Now, I don't want to get into it with our OT professor, but would like a comment on this bit about biblical flood survivors...

Genesis 6:4 describes the Nephilim, the "Giants" of the days before Noah. The Hebrew word for these giants, nef-eel' (Strong's concordance 05303, using James Strong's numbers (1890) [1]) appears in only one other verse of the Bible, and that verse is Numbers 13:33. The contradiction here is that the "giants" mentioned in Genesis 6:4 clearly lived before the Great Flood, and we can presume that they all perished along with every other creature or human not aboard the ark during the deluge. The only humans aboard the ark were Noah and his family, and no mention is made of "giants" along for the year-long voyage."

But in Numbers 13:33, we learn that some of the giants must have survived the flood outside the ark, since Moses's lieutenants actually saw them, and warned Moses against attacking them. source

So. I went and looked at Numbers to see exactly what was said...

Numbers 13:30 "And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

31 But the men that went up with him said. We be not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.

32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of great stature.

33. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants...."

I know, it's all in the translation...these could have been short people against a taller tribe and so the word "giants" come forth...the same with Goliath, I suppose. But the talk of giants do persist in the OT...

"In those days there were giants in the earth." I've always thought this was a haunting quotation, and I understand it in a literal sense. There really were giants in the earth. They were dinosaurs. We find those bones now. Ancient people would have found them too, and would have been astounded by the size of the bones and wondered what kind of monstrous creatures could have bones like this. I was watching that dinosaur program on the Discovery Channel and thinking, "In those days there were lots of giants in the land, and some of them were really horrendous looking monsters." Maybe the fantasies about giants are based on reality.

Shasta I have always wondered if Giant stories didnt arise from finding of The Bones. Now in reading this poem I do keep in mind that it is not really a true story nor is the legend of King Arthur yet we seek historical fact and geological data to back up the legends. So investigating other literature to see what is legend inserted from other cultures in Beowulf seems logical.

There is a warning to Beowuld against excess pride but also the story of Heremod warns against becoming stingy. When he quit giving out Rings he lost his hold over his warriors. So the warning is also to remain generous. fr

Maryal: I agree, there are no Greek mythological elements in Beowulf. But that's not a valid reason to reject the hypothetical premise that the OT source of the giants could have been inserted at the time of the Alexandrian translation. The monk writer would think he was inserting a Christian antecedent.

There are eight references to the children of Anak in the OT. Caleb saw them on his spying trip, reported them to Joshua and the lord said, "don't worry about them, I will destroy them for you". These giants-the Anakim, were resident at Hebron and after the Anakim were annihilated by Joshua, the place was given to Caleb. In deuteronomy 2:10-11 The Emims are described as a people great and many and tall as the Anakims, who were also accounted giants. My impression of the story is that Caleb's people were frightened by the need to attack a people who were taller than themselves. The Watusi would have left them speechless. Physical properties were more important in warfare in those days than they are today when a bullet stops the tallest of us.

Oh dear this is not ment to be argumentive - it is want I have been learning though - so like all of our postings please take what you will and leave the rest -

Ron Howard was all over our Austin news yesterday since he was visiting of all people the governor, who I have not heard is that much of a history buff - but the purpose of Ron Howard's visit is his $100,000,000 remake of the Alamo - that John Wayne blockbuster in which Hollywood changed and created legends that are false. Knowing how easily history can be affected in only 150 years of storytelling in order to glorify the brave and courageous I can't help imagine the story tellers of old would have embroidered the story of Beowulf so that he seemed the bravest hero that ever lived.

I'm interpreting what W.P. Ker explained in so many quotes about Beowulf - he explains that the Anglo-Saxons pushed the Celts and Norsemen further west as did the Normans after them. In fact he goes on to say the Normans did such a good job that it is a struggle to find many of the Anglo-Saxon stories. That said a lot to me of the significance of the Sutton Hoo find - Thank You Joan for that link - the mask Seamus Heaney is holding seems to be used all over the place now when Beowulf is the subject.

Ker goes on to say that most of the Norse myths are now held in Iceland - and Celtic myths are part of the DNA of the western edge of the British Isles. He also said in another article that if we look to the Northern myths we will understand the old story tellers. In order to make a point they weave in bits and pieces of the myths so that everyone would understand the significance of the character and his behavior. I can understand that since I know how much of the Alamo story is part of the very character or as I like to say these days the DNA of a Texan - so much so that it only becomes apparent when we leave the state.

The Northern Myths start the world order with giants - the freezing cold winters that hung on the mountains loom heavily in the life and death of a Norsemen and are the images given credit for the notion of giants - even An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols gives a Scandinavian definition for Giants saying they symbolize chthonic powers(pertaining to the gods and spirits of the underworld) and the power of fire.

I borrowed Snorre Sturlason's Heimskringla or the Lives of the Norse Kings He often references the Englishman William Morris. Morris says that the Volsunga Saga is to the north what the tales of the Greeks is to nations influenced by Rome and thus the Greek myths. The Volsunga Saga is the basis of the German Nibelungenlied since several agree that the VOLSUNGA SAGA is an ancient oral tale only written down, some say in the twelth others the thirteenth century.

Oh yes, and Snorre says that the word History is a latin word unknown in the North. The north uses the word Saga.

In the Saga is Skjold with a footnote explaining: according to various chronicles was the founder of the old Danish Skjoldung line of kings and is identified with Scyld Sceafing of the Old English poem Beowulf.

The Saga is sprinkled with the various Northern Gods and Goddesses along with their special symbols. Many of these symbols are in the Beowulf. Example: in the early section the spears are said to be of ASH - - Odhinn, Vili and V? used the log from an ash tree to form men - GOLD- is attributed to Freyja. And according to the An Illustrated ... there is special Scandinavian symbols for WATERS is the dwelling place of the serpent Midgard encircling the earth and MIST is a place of the underworld. And a SHIP is associated with the Vanir as fertility gods, and to Freyja. Most books give reference to the Northern Trinity as Oden/Odhinn; Thor; Freyja.

And so as the Celtic story of Cuchulain, who among other feats took three days to fight the horses of the sea and when he dies his body is spread Christ like on the rocks, I am seeing Beowulf as the Christ like savior of the Danes. We use the expression Christ because it symbolizes what we know of good and holy, bravely sacrificed for others, where as I don't think those repeating the story of Beowulf had any knowledge of Christ, the story was too easy to understand as a Christian and write down with a Christian influence.

Oh yes, here is a great Dictonary of Northern Mythology

Shasta, I never thought of the dinosaurs before... and yet we know that these huge animals (monsters) lived on the earth at one time. Would we believe their size if the bones weren't located? I don't think so. The question before us.~~how much of the Beowulf saga is based on myth, how much on reality...

How big were the "giants"...well, we are told that it took four men to lift Grendel's head...just picture that for a moment to get the idea that this wasn't just a man, somewhat taller than the average Dane.

Faith hits it..."not a true story", but a mixture of myth and historical fact. Some of it is "obviously bigger than life...but to me what facinates is the references to giants that occur in other literature.

Barbara, that's great information on the Norse myths..."to understand the old storytellers is to read the Norse myths." I need to go through those links...have seen some of the Icelandic myths before...will dig up some specifics.

And then there's the reference found in Milton...and Virgil. Not clear whether our scribe was familiar with the Aenead, but those giants were roaming there.

Justin found more Old Testament references to these giants...in the Book of Enoch. I did a search on these giants...and found something that may be of interest.

Will be right back...

More on the giants from the Book of Enoch

The identities of these evil progenitors are made clear by the Book of Enoch; they are those who have fallen from GodÕs grace and are beyond hope of redemption:
"And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us childrenÕ" (Charles 6.2).

Just as the fallen angels do for MiltonÕs Satan in Pandemonium (32), their progeny, monstrous giants, spread evil upon the earth and inflicted suffering upon mankind. Therefore, God commanded that they be destroyed in the Flood. In Beowulf, the hero does defeat giants (419-21) and the poet later mentions GodÕs decree that the remaining monstrous progeny are to be destroyed by the Flood (1689-93).

How could they, however, survive the flood to wreak havoc in BeowulfÕs age? The Book of Enoch gives an answer: "But though only the righteous survived the Deluge, sin still prevailed in the world through the demonsÑthe spirits which had gone forth from the slaughtered children of the Watchers and the daughters of men, and all manner of corruption was wrought through them" (Charles 3) as through Cain.

Thus, Grendel and his mother may be seen as descendants of fallen angels, ultimately of Satan himself. In addition, both works reflect enough similar ideas from Enoch as to suggest that the poets may have believed in such a connection between the fallen angels and the monsters of the fallen world as well.

In addition, pagan myths note that the gods were attacked by giants, who were half human and half monster. The revolt of Typhon, one of the giants, is made analogous by Christian mythographers to SatanÕs revolt in heaven (Elledge 14). Milton alludes to Typhon (1.197-201) and to the "Giants of mighty bone" (11.642). He continues to elaborate upon this idea about the descendants of Cain:

These are the product
Of those ill-mated marriages thou sawÕst:
Where good with bad were matched, who of
themselves
Abhor to join; and by imprudence mixed,
Produce prodigious births of body and mind.
Such were these giants, men of high renown. (11.683-88)

Milton also mentions how God wrought the Flood to rid the fallen world of their kind, just as the Beowulf poet does. In addition, Milton uses the name "Ramiel" for one of the fallen angels, and this same angel is named in the Book of Enoch as one of the leaders of the revolt to seduce the daughters of mankind (6.7). In Paradise Lost, Ramiel is overthrown by Abdiel during the battle in Heaven (6.372). There can be little doubt that both poets drew heavily from the Book of Enoch to develop the lineage of evil in the fallen world.

It is the comitatus literary structure in Beowulf and in Paradise Lost that lets one see an analagous relationship with God, Christ, and Satan. The king, hero, and evil one may be seen in Beowulf, as Hrothgar, Beowulf, and Grendel. When I first thought of Beowulf as Christ it was as a vulnerable hero but I never imagined there could be so many connections as were made in your Milton link. I am overwhelmed.

I have a lot to say on this one, but also a set of papers that must be handed back today and therefore not much time.

The Book of Enoch was not discovered until 1740 or so, in Ethiopia, an Ethiopian translation from the Greek. Milton could not have known it.

Enoch was part of Christian study for about five hundred years though it never made it into the canon or even the Apocrypha. However, the early church fathers were familiar with it, and it's my guess that much of the information about the fallen angels entered the oral culture of the church and references to assorted demons are probably in the writings of the church fathers. Milton would have had access to these writings.

Enoch is an Apocryphal book--that is to say it deals with all sorts of revelations. Probably written around the second century BCE. It wasn't translated into English until the 1800's.

That's all I have time for now. The papers call.

Good luck with those papers, prof! Look forward to hearing more from you after class.

Wellll, I can agree that Milton didn't know Enoch, but what of the the other Old T. giants...as in Numbers...before we dismiss the idea that the Beowulf scribe was familiar with the Greek or Biblical giants, I have one last comment on my desktop, just one that I found on the Biblical giants and Beowulf. I want to add here, that I had personally reached the conclusion that Grendel and his mother were descendents of Cain...and fatherless, were sons of Satan. And the desire to know where these devil references were coming from led into the research which connected the two ideas. In other words, I found that other scholars were thinking along the same lines I was sensing on my own. (still looking for a connection with wolves...she-wolves)

On those Biblical giants and Beowulf...

Biblical Allusions in "Further Celebration at Heorot"

There are several Biblical references in Beowulf that are quite interesting. Grendel is referred to as a descendant of Cain: "the hostile-hearted creature, Gods enemy, guilty of murder" (2.4). In addition, there is a reference to the Great Flood that took place in Genesis: "the origin of ancient strife, when the flood, rushing water, slew the race of giants they suffered terribly: that was a people alien to the Everlasting Lord. The Ruler made them a last payment through waters welling" (3.2). In this reference to the biblical flood, the author of Beowulf is suggesting that the sword's creators were descendants of those that caused God to bring on the flood perhaps even suggesting that they were descendants of Cain. However, earlier in the passage these same giants are referred to with reverence: "There came into the possession of the prince of the Danes, after the fall of devils, the work of wonder-smiths" (2.2). Once again there is a contrast between the pagan and Christian cultures, as the same "giants" are referred to with honor and contempt in succeeding paragraphs. Source

Maryal's right, everyone's interest is to "avenge" someone or other.

Let's recap the story. Grendel, the dark bestial side of us all, retaliates because of his hostility to all men and the incessant mead-boasting against his violence.

We've Hrothgar, the king, wishing to avenge (but unable to) the deaths of his men by this vicious monster. Unferth, bursting with envy, taunts Beowulf. What IS his problem? Is it another case of man rearing his ugly nature?

Beowulf, as expected of a great hero, avenges the deaths of the thanes by fighting & displaying Grendel's arm as a trophy. Grendel's mom, the she-monster, aligning herself with family ties and kinship to ole Grendel does what any mother would do-- she goes for revenge- against the death of her boy! Away goes Aeschere under mommys arm- into the vile depths of the mere.

Again we need Beowulf to avenge that murder, so in he dashes to decapitate Grendel.

Hengest's story is told by the scop in "The Fight at Finnsburg," where again a death must be avenged.

Violence begets violence. We've not come very far have we?

Sadly, the answer is "no" Andy. Evil was not totally drowned out in the Flood. There were a few survivors...but I guess that's all it takes.

Vengeance is a main theme in this work.

How are you doing? Hope you are feeling better. I take it as a positive sign that you are at the computer again...

I am spending this morning clearing up my desktop to prepare for Beowulf's return trip home to Geatland.

One bit of unfinished business remains on my desktop. Barbara posted that to understand Beowulf's mindset, you have to be familiar with the Norse myths that influenced the Danes probably more than Christian teaching did. I followed one of the links she provided and find those giants to be at the very heart of these "myths"...

http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/IsisShrine/Norsemyth.html

" With the heat blowing from the lands of Fire, the frost began to melt, and the giant Ymir was born from poison and ice.

Ymir became the father of all giants. On the night of his creation, he fell asleep near the lands of the South and became completely bathed in sweat: from under his left arm were born man and woman, both giants like him

The three sons of the Giants' race at once began to rebel against their creators, which ended in the annihilation of the Giants. They first killed the aged Ymir. So much blood flowed from his shattered body that the abyss was filled with it. All of the other Giants drowned in the blood, save Beregelmir and his wife, who managed to launch a small boat and escape; it is from them that a new race of giants issued.

At the time of the creation of the world, it was foretold that it would not be eternal. In the Day of the End, Ragnarok, the earth would be torn asunder in a mighty battle between the gods of the Aesir and the Giants. Great battles of might and magic would be fought, reducing all life to ashes. Yggdrasil would fall, sending the layers of the world crashing down. The hound Garm, guarding the entrance to Niflheim would flee in terror, and the dead will escape, rising again to the earth as plagues and disease to fight along side the gods.

In the end of the battle, everything would be destroyed; the gods, giants, men and animals would cease to exist.

Depressing...everyone will be destroyed, including the innocent. Oh my, Andy, you have put your finger on the message, I think.

Even though Beowulf has destroyed the evil "giants".....he has not destroyed the last of them. Violence begets violence. Are "giants synonymous with "evil"?

Warnings are interwoven throughout this "celebration" ... does Beowulf seem to be getting them? Or is he going to make the same mistakes. As Fai points out...Heremod was powerful and popular...until he stopped his generosity. Why did he stop, I'm wondering? Will Beowulf? He intends to go home and present all the gold and treasure to Uncle Hygelac. Where will he go wrong? When his generosity ceases?

You know what else I'm wondering, Andy? Where is the message for us? I'm not talking about a message for kings and rulers, but for people like us...and Beowulf. What lesson can we learn from this....or is there no lesson. (I hate to think that?)

What are the lessons for us? We have foolish pride, loyalty--aye, I love that word. Could we face the dangers that B. met and give the credit to God, as he did?

I kind of like the merriment that surrounds Heorot. We could all take a lesson from comraderie and revelry.

Should we ignore the beastial, non-human beings or confront them?

Do we all embellish and personalize our stories to some degree?

Is it B's purpose on earth to help with human suffering?

I'd better lay off the medicines, huh? Reflective, indeedy.

And you have brought up some good points. My feeling is that no matter how advanced and civilized humans profess to be there really isn't that much difference between us and those from centuries past. With our so-called enlightenment we still display tendencies for revenge.....I think our present world situation is pointing that out very clearly.

"Do we all embellish and personalize our stories to some degree?": I think that most of us do. We naturally want to present ourselves in the best way we can think of to gain admiration or approval or at the very least, acceptance. If I want you to like me (or even just accept me) I would definitely make myself sound like someone I think you would admire or approve of.

"Is it B's purpose on earth to help with human suffering?": Do you mean his own intended purpose or his destiny? Perhaps it was his destiny to help alleviate the suffering that was happening to the people of Heorot but was it his purpose? I am a cynic---I'll admit it. I still feel that Beowulf's purpose was to build his own reputation with an eye to the future and to "feather his nest". Brave? Yes, he had to be, and strong and accomplished in warfare and killing. But also, he wasn't shy about telling of his many conquests, of making sure that everyone was aware of his talent as a warrior, and he wasn't averse to receiving payment for his services. I said it early on that I think of him as a mercenary and I guess I haven't changed my mind. I see him as heroic but I don't think of him as a hero. There is a difference in my mind.

Phyll, are you saying then that the deed does not make the hero, but rather the intent?

What if B's deeds were not intended to relieve human suffering, but rather to gain glory and respect for his king...as he keeps saying? Not for himself, but for his people? Does that make his act, his sacrifice "heroic"?

I keep reading these lines with such awe...they were written over 1000 years ago, and yet they are so ...human, I guess is the word. No, we haven't changed so much. It doesn't seem that long ago. If the Beowulf scribe readwhat was written 1000 years before his time, would he have thought the same?

I guess hero is in the eye of the beholder however, Beowulf did mighty and heroic deeds what ever the motivation. My opinion is that as he was raised in the warrior class and started as a small boy at his fathers knee he could not have been anything but what he was. He was "blessed" to have the physical and mental strength to achieve these deeds and duly deserved his rewards for he did save the people from Grendle. There will be more deeds in his life.The thing is he is forthright in telling the people he wishes to help them and he didnt rob the undersea cave of it's treasure remember. He was content with the glory at that point. Anyone brave enough to go after Ol'Mother Monster is a hero to me. Fae

fai, you bring up that sword hilt which he did take. I guess he took it because it is what saved his life. I continue to wonder where it came from. How did it get into the possession of the hag? Did it belong to her "people" ? An old family heirloom? Somehow I don't think so. It wouldn't have turned on her...when Hrunting failed. And note how it melted when it came into contact with her neck. The hilt was well-designed by real smiths. I can't imagine the likes of Grendel creating anything like this. So where did it come from?

I put myself in the audience as the scop tells the tale. Do I know all about this sword at this point? Am I thinking what a brave man is Beowulf, or am I thinking, "this guy is really full of himself."

I think Beowulf meets the standards of hero in his day. He comes to the aid of Hrothgar and his thanes. He defeats two terrible ogres. True, he has been raised to believe that one should win a great name for himself before he dies. All that will live after his death will be his name and the tales told by scops celebrating his great battles. That seems to be enough for him.

As for that hilt which Beowulf takes from the ogres' den. It was one of their trophies from a defeated (or murdered) enemy. It is now Beowulf's trophy. Soldiers today continue to take trophies, partly, I guess to prove that they were there and conquered.

Joan I am involved in reading the Interlaced Stucture of Beowulf. I am going to have to read it more than once and of course read it in juxtaposition to the entire epic. Then maybe I will understand what the author is saying. I think I do now and even if I am only getting parts of it I am involved with the ideas. I was very taken in the beginning of reading this poem with the method of intertwining several stories from various times into one narrative in this method. (Modern term/flashbacks or flashforwards) and so I am very glad to find this essay in the Norton edition. Much about the first swords used by Beowulf in his fights and the failure of these swords and then the new swords "falling" into his hands. A warning too regarding all this takes place in the poem as a flash forward regarding his fight with the dragon. I have to quit or my eye will rebel. I am still searching for information on The Sword of the Flood Story. It didn't have a name you notice as other swords have in the epic. fae

Hehehe is his bragging much different then today's resume - I think the idea of a mercenary must be older than a nation states standing army since an army would have to be paid and clothed etc. which I think is not in the economics of the time and therefore every act and skill had to be paid for -

Something about this wergild which was not paid to GrendelÕs Mom gave her the right to come a callin' - again putting value on money beyond its monitary value but a symbol of right behavior and the cause to fight for that right behavior.

Since neither Grendal nor his mom live in or the direct surroundings of the meadhall, I get this picture that the meadhall is the center of community and there are the innies and the outies - since Beowulf comes from a place that has, if not a meadhall at least a center, he is exceptable and can enter the meadhall where as, Grendel and his mom are defiantly outies. That reminds me that even today we view an outie with apprehension if not fear.

As to the flood - seems to me on TV recently there was a wonderful series on the Bible showing where the land break was probably located that made all the world feel like it was flooded. I do not remember all the specifics but there are some digs now finding folks thrown about because of the force of the water. And it was only that part of central middle east affected - that is where I do not remember the exact location although I can see in my memory eye the map and thin land area affected. All to say that there would have been untold numbers of folks not ever affected by this flood. But I must agree that so many cultures have a flood story so it maybe that the world was completely covered - I do not think archaeologists agree that there is evidence the world was completly flooded.

All to say if we are looking for the Aristotelian view of this work that everything must be as it is written then I think it is a bit hard to understand its relevance to our lives today. For me I would need to see this more symbolic of beliefs and behavior in order to see its relevance to my life.

And so I prefer to see the Grendal family without a Dad as images of what represents all that can create fear and what the ugliness of fear can do unless we rally our Beowulf courage with a sword and best my Grendals.

Since the sword could only be produced as of the bronze Age there is a disconnect if we are going to be literal. When the cherubim are placed at the east of the Garden of Eden with "a flaming sword which turned every way" Genesis 3:24 after Adam and Eve are driven out of their paradise - how could that be if swords are of forged metal - when was Genesis supposed to be written - The sword is part of our view of the archangel Michael, King David and Judith who beheaded Holoferries.

According to the Illustrated Encyclopaedia... We have the sword dance in the Germanic tales - most heroes and war gods have a magic sword. We also have in the Norse Myths the god Freyr with a sword that fought of its own accord. And Surtr the flame giant wields a flaming sword. I wonder then if Beowulf was using Freyr's sword since it seems to pop up out of no-where

The sword according to Illustrated Encyclopaedia... symbolizes among other things discrimination; the penetrating power of intellect; spiritual decision. It possesses supernatural powers either on the earth or under the earth or under the waters and is associated with giants. The sword separates the body and soul, heaven and earth. The two edged sword symbolizes the duel powers, creation and distraction, life and death.

Fai...in your studies, see if you can get a sense of the major influence on Beowulf scop...Christianity or the Norse myths that Barbara has directed us to, would you? I can accept that the scop was a Christian monk, and that he is telling a tale of a pagan Dane who lived several hundreds of years before...which would explain the interweaving of the two...and yet, I'm wondering just how embedded into this 10th century scop are the Norse myths. It feels as if he is talking Christianity, but believes in a different sort of magic, does it to you? The power of the magic sword.

Maybe that's it! Maybe the Christian scop is writing about a pagan warrior...trying to say that he is Christian. That would explain the reason it feels that Beowulf is merely saying words to the effect that it was the Lord God who makes his victories possible, but doesn't really believe them.

Maryal, you mention that Beowulf has been raised to believe that one should win a great name for himself before he dies. And with these great victories, he's done that. His name will live on. Is there a danger in achieving your main goal in life at such an early age?

"a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage."

Any one of those definitions could apply to Beowulf (though I personally question the divine descent) so literally he could be a hero. But, I believe, as I said, that although Beowulf performed heroic deeds, after all, he accomplished the killing of Grendel and Grendel's mother, just as he said he would even when all the other warriors of Heorot could not or would not, however, I don't see him as a pure hero---someone who performs heroic deeds from pure altruism (unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others). I see the NYC fire fighters and policemen on 9/11 as heroes in that definition, but I see Beowulf as having his own gain well in mind when he performed heroic deeds. I don't denigrate him or what he did because that was and, I think still is, a motivation for heroism. We throw the word hero around with abandon. If you ask a sports minded child who his hero is he might answer Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods but I sure don't consider them heroes in the true sense of the word. Talented, accomplished, even legendary------and extremely well-paid! They may perform heroic deeds in their sports field but they are not heroes.

Joan, I am confused when you say a Christian scop. I consider the original story teller as the scop (an Old English bard or poet) but that the written manuscript was produced by a scribe, probably a monk/scribe. Is that whom you are referring to as a Christian scop? Or are you saying that you believe the legend from its very beginning was composed by a Christian monk who then told it in the mead halls for several hundred years before it was written down?

pHYLL, I'm at work right now and snuck (is that a word?)...a peek in here to see what was going on...will digest your definition of a "pure hero" when time allows...agree that compared to a NY fire fighter, his accomplishment is not all that...

I meant by Christian scop, the one who recorded the manuscript that we have...whether he dictated it or wrote it himself. I don't believe that a simple "scribe" could have written the measured poetry that we find in the manuscript...the author of this existing manuscript was a poet...and surely a Christian. From the very beginning? Who knows? Could have been, because we know now there were Christians in that neck of the woods...but maybe elements were added later. It's my guess that the very earliest Beowulf tellings were much like what we read of Sigemund...and Finn. A retelling of the exploits without much character development or any pychological/religious elements.

I think you are right Joan, Beowulf was a pagan warrior and he himself was a product of the norse myths as was the poet's who sang his story, and I am making an assumption that over time many scops added their feelings and words just as in our translation (Heaney) we come across Irish words.But I think most of the Christian references were from the Christian scribes who wrote this down. They were well aware of the forms etc of such heroic poems so I am not so interested in whether it is a lay or some other form. What is interesting is that in telling the story the Scribe has intertwined and buried in it an older more ancient story of magic and monsters, floods and giants, and yes the Scribe assigned Christian motives to the hero and the people as this is his language and I think it serves well in the total consturct of the poem. The Scribe a good Christian, may have had buried in his mind a memory of darkness, smoke and mirrors, magic and swords that melted under blood of an enemy. I hav e to keep reading ...fae

I agree, Joan, that the writer of the only surviving manuscript was a monk. Whether or not he was the original writer of the poem, or whether he was simply copying an older manuscript which has not survived cannot be determined.

I think Fae is right that the Story of Beowulf preceeded any writing down of said story and that it is a mixture of old Norse legends and Christian influence. The original stories, or songs, would not have had these Christian elements, but the stories of what Beowulf did would be essentially unchanged.

Barbara--Interesting sword question about the angels in Genesis posted at Eden to keep Adam and Eve from returning. Certainly the mentioning of a sword at all presupposes the Bronze Age. Genesis was compiled of a number of different manuscripts (with different names for God) and could have been written as late as 1000-800 BCE. Again, we don't know exact time, and the scholars don't agree. Sorry not to be more helpful.

Gosh Phyll how do I say this - I do not want to argue but I saw a flash of a thought while reading your concern for Beowulf's hero status based on his expecting to be paid - please I am only reacting to the thought you are presenting not you and all your wonders that you bring here - but where Michael Jordan gets paid mucho dollars as opposed to the NY Firemen - the firemen are still on the payroll - is there maybe a level of heroism based on a pay scale that is coming to your mind - because we think of heroism when we think of folks like McCain and other brave soldiers that accomplished great feats of heroism but bottom line a nation state is paying them.

When we think of other Heroic figures that have explored unknown or uncharted territory - they were all being paid or financially supported by a group - now I do not think Lindbergh was financially supported except for the coast of his plane and fuel and I am not even sure if he went outside his own money for that - and Hillary climbed Mt. Everest without indorcements paying him for his accomplishments and yet, we seldom think of either of these two men as world class heroes.

I wonder Phyll if it is your uncomfort with Beowulf's braggadocos speach that combined with his making money is making him appear more like a loud mouth salesmen. I just think it is funny in that he reminds me of my seven year old grand who annouces he can do the most unbelievable feats - why we were climbing in the woods one day last year and while going up a steep embankment that of course he could scuttle up quicker then a doormouse he actually offers me his arm to help me, someone 3 times his weight, he want to help - well I took the offer thinking to amuse him and was astonished at his strength - where he didn't really help me I could see in just a few years he really would be helping me - but back to how at seven he sounded to me just like our Beowulf.

I also know when I must do something difficult I give myself speaches like the Beowulf speach and that helps me be brave to go forward - so I wonder how much of Beowulf's speach was about being an example for the other Thanes as well as instilling courage in himself.

Now I do see how most of the nation was captivated with Sarah when she one first for her magnificant figure skating. Her saying she only imagined and hoped for third and her shear bawled-over delight in winning first captured many a heart. At the time I thought, how different are the values in parts of our nation as they were agog with her innocence but did not comment on the steel I saw in her. Also, I couldn't help but think of the difference in the way athletes act in various sports. Remember Ali before he named himself Ali - he had a big mouth that was poetry, that was easily up there with our Beowulf and look at how respected and loved he is in this nation.

I also can see Jesus, our ultimate hero figure and the one that some of Beowulf's acts are being compared to as we use Jesus Christ to symbolize our explainations, was not paid and was not braggadocos and maybe that is what makes our Jesus Christ such the unique power.

Oh yes, Maryal just some of the ambiguous thoughts that always hit me and that we seem to feel the need to nail down as scientific fact - my wonderment at our often righteous proclaimations still confuses me as they did when I was eight years old.

Beowulf and the New York firefighters (or any firefighters, for that matter) have this in common: they risk their lives.

Is risking one's life a necessary requirement for being a true hero?

I'm using the word hero here in its strongest sense. Of course, Michael Jordan is a "hero" to many youngsters, but to me he is an extraordinary athlete, not a hero. It's an odd word, subject to many interpretations, isn't it?

Barbara--I just reread your post and realize that you said that part of the "message" of Beowulf could well be to encourage young thanes to build themselves up, learn those war-skills, and go into battle whether with man or ogre, like Beowulf. I think that Beowulf is certainly "modeling desired behavior" as we might say these days.

Aha - yes, death preoffered - but does the risk of death alone mark a hero - again I think of the soldiers in our lifetime that have performed acts of heroism beyond most of our imaginations but regardless we agree how adequate - they were paid - then I take it another step and think if those that escape as the story of the vietnamise journalist in the "Killing Fields" or someone that lived through the concentrations camps - are they less because they were not being paid and we use their story to show heroism, just as we are emboldened when we hear the stories of those who escaped or helped others escape 9/11. So I am seeing those that act heroic just to save their own skin we still use as poster examples of heroism. So what do we think are the components of Heroism and are we consistent with our definition. Hmmm just wool gathering here how we define heroism.

In no way could I take offense with your opinion differing from mine---particularly when you present such a valid argument in such a polite and civilized manner. And I have to agree that you make a very valid argument. Yes, the fire fighters were "on the payroll" and if someway, somehow, we could talk to any of them I am sure that they would say that they weren't heroes but only doing their job. But I can't think that when they were going into the WTC and up those long flights of stairs that any one of them was thinking of a promotion or even a bonus. I can't know without having been inside their minds but I feel that their only thought was to get the people out! With Beowulf, for whatever reason or prejudice on my part, I just can't get the feeling that his only thought was to save the people of Heorot simply because they were fellow humans in danger. I can't elevate him to the status of a hero---a legendary warrior of great skill and strength, yes, but not a hero. As for Cassius Clay, now known as Muhammad Ali, I will not get into my feelings about that except to say that not ALL people in this nation love or respect him. Perhaps my memory is too long.

And, Maryal, you are absolutely right---the fire fighters and Beowulf do have the common ground in that they risk their lives. So do violent criminals. Would we consider them heroes?

I hope that everyone understands that I am oftentimes playing "devil's advocate' here. I love discussing the finer points of human behavior, in ancient times and in modern times, and my perception of it. I think this discussion is terrific whether or not I agree with everyone's point of view or whether or not they agree with mine. Though I really can't understand why you ALL can't agree with me, for heaven's sake, since I am so right! <grin>

Ok a little Beowulf there Phyll - hehehe - "Though I really can't understand why you ALL can't agree with me, for heaven's sake, since I am so right!" - <grin> shared -

The last definition in Phyll's list is the one that qualifies Beowulf for the acolade. A hero is " one who shows great courage."

It is very hard to perform when one's life is in immediate jeapardy. The ability to function in spite of fear is what courage is all about. Fear is physical. The stomach muscles cramp and it is difficult to control bodily functions.Yet one must perform in spite of that hindrance. Soldiers and sailors practice their tasks over and over again in order to perform them automatically when under fire. The NY firefighters were able to do that. Smoke jumpers do it.

Is it ever a question of pay?. No I don't think so. Duty is more important . (Good Heavens, we were paid $21. per month and found during the war.) The firefighters in NY were paid a living wage but they were not thinking of rewards at the time. The were thinking of doing the job, I am sure.

What then are the ingredients of a hero. I think a hero is one who is vulnerable and who puts his or her life in jeapardy to advance a noble cause regardless of the prospect of reward. Is Beowulf a hero? Yes, I think so. Yes he did heroic things, but he was also a hero. He was vulnerable. He knew he was risking his life and yet he chose to perform the task. The task was noble.

...because it makes you think. That's the real value of our differing viewpoints. One more thing to consider about Beowulf's heroism...his youth! Justin, you point out his vulnerability. But I sense, do you, some of that daredevilishness of youth...I'll fight or I'll die. But you get the feeling that he doesn't really believe he will die? Is he really risking his life, if he doesn't believe he'll lose it?

First I was looking for the basis for his confidence. Could it be in God, as he kept saying, although he kept indicating that his confidence was really placed in his own strength. Consider that his confidence may come from his youth...from his belief that he is invulnerable.

When I think of him this way, some of the courage and greatness of his willingness to face Grendel and mother...dissipates. He really doesn't believe he will lose...but he wants that fame and the glory!

The message is clear in this chapter..it is important to achieve glory before you die. I've been thinking about that. Do you agree with it? Is glory important to you?

I remember...actually I feel funny saying it here, but I used to think it was necessary to make a permanent contribution to society, to leave my mark, so that I would be remembered through the ages, long after my immediate family was gone. For a while there I thought I'd be a writer...of such caliber that my name would be remembered, and my thoughts through my work. For some reason, it was important that I be remembered.

I don't feel that way anymore. When did this stop being important to me? Perhaps after having my own children? Or would it have left me anyway? I think so. Is this desire for immortality on earth a response of youth to the realization that one doesn't live forever. Is that what motivates young Beowulf?

Ah, Joan, the idealism and ignorance of youth has made its marks on each of us. It is classical- as we romanticize and envision ourselves as "leaving a mark" on society. In our youth, we innocently wish to be remembered and celebrated for our importance, our contributions to mankind. Our reputation is of utmost concern and we strive for prominence and great acclaim in whatever field we choose.
Beowulf, being young and fiercely loyal owed a familial debt and assumed that obligation to fight for the Danes.
As we mature and become more sophisticated, that enthusiasm is replaced by experience and we begin to understand that civilization is not contigent on our individual subscription to life. Contrary to our headstrong beliefs, it becomes clear that we are simply a small drop in the sea of circumstances, merely a participating organism orchestrated by the "grand architect." As we progress on our journey, what will be next? How will we apply our visions and ideals?
Aye, there's the rub. WYRD, our belief in Fate. I love that wyrd word.

The distinction of glory seems pompous to me as an adult. We're lucky to gloat over waking up in the morning and feeling good. I take my delight and triumph sharing these thoughts with people I care about.

I went through the same thing----I was going to write the great American novel--I would become the female version of Ernest Hemingway--my writings would be quoted in hallowed halls for ages to come (ala Beowulf?). And then reality happened. First, I realized that I didn't have the talent or the self-discipline to be even a mediocre writer let alone a great one. But it is interesting to read your thoughts and to analyse my own, as well. You wrote: "I thought I'd be a writer...of such caliber that my name would be remembered, and my thoughts through my work. For some reason, it was important that I be remembered." And that points up what I am trying so ineffectually to say. I have emphasized the "my" and "I" in your statement because it tells me your motivation (and admittedly mine, too) wasn't necessarily to alter lives for the better, or bring about a better world but that YOU (and I, as well) could be known and remembered. And that is what I feel about Beowulf. I concede to you all that according to one definition of hero that B. is a hero and he performed heroic, or epic, deeds, but I STILL question his motivation. I think it was partly for self-gain and not because he wanted altruistically to save his fellow man by ridding Heorot of this terrible scourge known as Grendel. And, the fact that he sailed to Heorot, unannounced and uninvited, and offered his services with the belief that HE could successfully get rid of this monster when no one else had been able to, just doesn't sound to me as though he truly thinks that he is vulnerable.

What a wonderful discussion on heroism. Your comments have covered the subject so thoroughly that I can't add a thing.

I agree that when we are young, we hope to set the world on fire. And as we mature, we just hope we can leave it undamaged.

A few thousand words back, somebody asked what the theme of "Beowulf" is. Has that question been answered? Is it simply "good versus evil?" Is it the overcoming of terrible obstacles with great courage? Is it civilization versus the savagery of nature?

When a young boy thinks about joining the Marine Corps, he thinks big thoughts. When he finishes boot camp, he is a little less certain, but still "gung-ho" as they say. In regimental training, he thinks he can do this thing and come back with glory. He bolsters his power with a tattoo that reads "Death before Dishonor." The night before a battle he realizes he may not live forever but he cannot back out now and let down his buddies who rely on him. Now it's comeraderie. So he swears and spits and goes over the side like all the other guys. He lands on a beach,runs up the sand, and realizes some one is shooting at him. His buddie in front is hit and at that moment the boy becomes a man who is vulnerable. If he does his job, he is a hero. Does Beowulf exhibit any of these youthful human characteristics? He exhibits a few. His bravado bolsters him. He is skillful but he knows he is vulnerable because his grip slipped once. He goes to the fight alone as each man must. He does the job in spite of limitations. Beowulf is a hero.

I bet King Hrothgar and all the Danes would have agreed with you, Justin. Hang the motivation, he got the job done. The scops sang of his success down through the ages. Every young'un reading Beowulf looks at him as a Superhero.

That's a good question. What is the theme? I read somewhere, sorry I can't remember to whom to attribute this:

"The poem is about encountering the monstrous, defeating it, and then having to live on in the exhausted aftermath."

Well, then, shall we read on into the exhausted aftermath, the last third of the poem, old Beowulf ...and then talk about the overall theme? Good thoughts, Shasta! We'll check back at the end of the poem to see how they stand as the theme?

There are many themes in Beowulf. One of the sacred themes is concerned with the role of the allmighty in determining human outcomes. Beowulf has the free will to fight but the almighty will determine the outcome. Good vrs. evil is another. How about the sins of the father borne by the sons. Revenge and vengence are theme contenders.

Joan: The motivation in my little hero description was too obvious to mention. However, Beowulf's motives are something else. I'm not at all clear on why he does this. Is he altruistic? Does he want treasure? Does he want confirmation of his skill? Does he want a feeling of accomplishment? Does he think that if he does this thing it will put him in good with god and get him into heaven when his time comes? Does he want immortality? Does he want the scops to tell his tale? Why does he set off on this quest? There are lots of questions here and no answers yet.

Gee, Justin, you and Shasta have asked a heap of questions and proposed some real candidates for themes of the saga.

One question you asked..does Beowulf want immortality? Is that why he risks his life? And you also asked, does he want immortality? Hmmm...I don't get the impression that he's thinking about credit in heaven ...or immortality in that sense. But I do think he wants lasting fame and publicity....on earth.

I'm wondering how old he is. We hear that his uncle Hygelac is young for a king....so I'm assuming that this is a young man we are talking about. 19-20. How do you see him? And I do think that he has achieved what he wanted. His mark has been made. He is the saviour of a whole kingdom. Where does he go from here? Reminds me of these young athletes who make a big name for themselves at a very young age, and unless they get involved in some altruistic activity...they seem sort of lost in the real world with all that money and fame. The best years of their lives were lived when they were in their twenties.

Is that the warning we are getting from all these aging kings? I felt sorry for Hrothgar when he suddenly breaks into tears at Beowulf's leaving. Who knew they had become so close? Or was it something else? Why did the king weep? Did you find that moving? It was almost as if Hrothgar was losing a son.

Where's Barbara? She'll know this one. We have a raven opening the day with "raucous glee". Has there been a raven in every single book we have read here? I seem to remember a raven can be the sign of both good and bad.

Joan the raven is a symbol of Odin - he has two ravens and off the top of my head I have forgotten their meaning - all this Norse Mythology is new for me. I'll find it and get back here with the information.

Justin has so aptly explained the Hero status of Beowulf from a gut level that sounds like it comes from personal experience - beautifully done Justin. But I wondered if within Literature there was an explanation or definition of a hero and of course off I went -

It appears that there is a marked difference in our comtemporary view of vulnerability being part of a hero as opposed to Literature written before the Victorians - the early stories seem to show the hero as being vulnerable to some outside force where as, since the Victorians we no longer look at vulnerability within the hero as a sign of weakness but as part of his character. And so here is a synopsis of my search.

These are the phrases I have found describing heroes before the Victorian age.

Ambition leaves him vulnerable to the siren
The hero very early in, protects the vulnerable woman.
The real hero or anti-hero in Victorian writings is always vulnerable to invasion by...
The classic literature of Roman and Greek ...They are vulnerable because they have a sword.
make a mistake and left himself vulnerable
King Lear: Shakespearean Tragedy: Story of a Moral Hero causing destruction; weak and Vulnerable . . . Easily a victim of the lust for power.
...that it had been selected as a vulnerable point of attack. These appearances she said, Ivanhoe, ``thou hast painted a hero; surely they rest but to refresh...

Where as vulnerablility is part of the hero's character in the the modern day hero

where the vulnerable hero, having survived a traumatic
intimidated by and vulnerable to the eggheads
The hero needs a map and a guide to the terror of being violated while in the vulnerable state of receiving.
children love Harry Potter, a hero who is both male and vulnerable: with his weedy physique...
Evelyn Rogers, Romance novelist says "The hero, however, is all man, although a difficult one...Ah, the vulnerable hero is a wonderful part of romance."

Aristotle's definition of a tragic hero is that the character must be a man, must be of high birth or stature, and must have a tragic flaw.

Literary Terms: The everyday definition of hero Ñ a dashing, courageous figure Ñ also applies to Macbeth, who is described as a brave warrior at the start of the play. Ironically , though, he does not behave heroically for most of the play. He murders Duncan in his sleep, has Banquo and Fleance ambushed and MacDuff's defenceless family slain. These are all cowardly acts. At the end of the play the heroic figure reappears, killing Young Siward and being killed by MacDuff.

Epic: An extended narrative poem recounting actions, travels, adventures, and heroic episodes... Characteristics of the classical epic include these:

The main character or protagonist is heroically larger than life, often the source and subject of legend or a national hero
The deeds of the hero are presented without favoritism, revealing his failings as well as his virtues
The action, often in battle, reveals the more-than-human strength of the heroes as they engage in acts of heroism and courage.
The setting covers several nations, the whole world, or even the universe
The episodes, even though they may be fictional, provide an explanation for some of the circumstances or events in the history of a nation or people
The gods and lesser divinities play an active role in the outcome of actions

From Heroic Fantasy - the Literature of Transcendence

In the Hero With A Thousand Faces, Campbell lifted the neologism of the heroÕs dangerous and difficult journey into what Joseph Conrad called the heart of darkness. Ultimately the hero achieves self-fulfilment, power and wisdom, though it is usually at a price.

Diana Waggoner - Heroic behaviour... means that physical courage and exciting events are not enough; every action must have a serious purpose...The reader identifies with the hero not because he is good, but because he is strong, clever and resourceful. His conflicts with his opponents are interesting only as action; he does not necessarily deserve to winÉ

Now I'm off to find those ravens -

And that was a wonderful "definition" of hero pre and post victorian. Thanks Barb. fr

Personalities Associated with Norse Mythology Odin, Woden, Wuotan, Wotan, Odhinn's symbols include the raven, the wolf, and the spear. Odhinn is said to have two ravens, Hugin (thought) and Munin (memory) that he sends forth into the world every day to gather information for him. He is also said to have two wolves Geri (greedy) and Freki (fierce). He is said to feed the wolves the meat from his plate in Valhalla as all he needs for sustenance is Mead. Odhinn's spear, Gungnir, crafted by the sons of Ilvadi, is said to have the power to determine victory in battle. Another of Odhinn's symbols is the valknut, three triangles interlaced.

Raven Lore: Two ravens sit on his shoulders and bring to his ears all the news they see or hear; they are called Hugin and Munin. He sends them out at daybreak to fly over the whole world, and they come back at breakfast-time; by this means he comes to know a great deal about what is going on, and on account of this man call him the god-of-ravens.

In many works of Old Norse poetry ravens were cast as companions of death and destruction. As ominous carrion birds of the battlefield, they possess an uncanny knowledge of where blood will be shed. Their instincts are so accurate and unmistakeable that even valkyries--Odin's warrior maidens whose mission is to guide the slain to Valhalla--consult them. In this stanza by a 10th century Icelandic poet, Thorbjorn Hornklofi, a valkyrie asks the ravens about the battle of Hafrsfjord, in which King Harald Fairhair united the whole of Norway under his rule...

To understand the system, we must define the terms. In the Norse Edda, Odin occurs on every level of life. On the highest plane of cosmic ideation it is the essence of creative universal consciousness, the Allfather. The name is a form of o?r, universal intelligence (Greek nous), whereof the spiritual soul of man is an intrinsic part.

(O?roerir, "container of o?r," which held the mead of wisdom from which Odin himself drank in a far past aeon, is one of the holy vessels which contain the "blood of Kvasir" -- a "hostage" sent by the unmanifest superior divinities (Vanir) to the lesser, creative deities (Aesir). This suggests the continuity of divine inspiration: a transmission or avatar from inconceivably sublime cosmic powers descending to a god world still far superior to our own.

It also suggests the continuous evolutionary growth of Odin, now Allfather of our worlds and divine root of every living being in our sphere,Hehehe it sounds like the Norsemen had a handle on Process Theology before White outlined the theory. from a formerly lesser condition.) While in a general sense Allfather is implicit in all forms of manifestation.

Odin has his specific domain: a "shelf" or plane of substance superior to our physical matter, named "Gladhome" (Gladsheim), where is located Val-hall, the "hall of the elect."

Val means "choice"; it also has the meaning "death" when it applies to Odin's warriors, the "One-victors" (einherjar). As the word implies, each has achieved victory over one -- himself. Each has elected to die as a personal, limited egoity and gained a transcendency of consciousness into the realm of the gods or, to put it another way, has overcome the lesser, human propensities and united with the cosmic purpose of life. Is this the meaning of our Beowulf's battles I wonder - the choice to risk death symbolizing a gaining of transcendency of consciousness and unity with the cosmic purposes of life

This is a continuous process of growth, hence of change, each daily "death" being a transformation from a less to a more perfect condition. The heroes are brought to Odin's sacred hall by the "crowners of the elect" (Valkyries) who are closely related to man's hamingja, his "guardian angel" or spiritual soul. They are therefore our protectors and tutors. Is this the message that keeps this the story of Beowulf alive I wonder

Each barrier to the Hall of the Elect is symbolic of some human weakness that must be conquered.

In 1 Kings, after Elijah has told King Ahab (a very bad king, one of the worst, married to Jezebel) that there will be a drought throughout the kingdom until Elijah speaks the word, he is told to go hide east of the Jordan.

So he set out and did as Yahweh had said; he went and stayed by the torrent of Cherith, east of the Jordan. The ravens brought him bread in the morning and meat in the evening, and he quenched his thirst at the stream (1 Kings 17:5-6).

An example of some helpful ravens who are feeding the prophet.

 
There are nights when the moon shines so brightly 
and everything is ever so quiet. 
Then Odin rides through the forest. 
These are the raven nights.  
When all the ravens are white and can speak,  
and everyone can understand them

 

From Sweden

So many cultures weave myths and legends around the raven--one of the best known to us would be the Native Americans. Ravens are very important in their stories. In some legends they are bad luck and in others, as Maryal points out in only one of the Bible verses referring to ravens, they are sometimes for good. We think of Noah sending the dove out to see if the Flood had receded but in one reference it was a raven that he sent.

"And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro,
 until the waters were dried up from off the earth."  Genesis 8:7

EDIT: Just a personal thought on paganism. We, who were raised in the Christian religion think of it as something bad or evil, something to be avoided and yet paganism(s)surround us. We speak them often. Every time we say Wednesday, (Wodensdae) that is (Wodin, Wotan,) Odin's Day, or Thursday (Thorsdaeg) is sacred to Thor. Asatru is a sanctioned pagan religion still practised by many today. Pagan beliefs are so much a part of our history that we can't truly ignore it or avoid it.

Phyll ~so true. Our pagan ancestors were true believers in their gods and lived according accordingly ~neither bad, nor evil people were they. At Shakespeare's burial place in Stratford, archaeologists found what scholars consider to be "pagan" devotional icons. Literally that old, old Christian church is built on a pagan foundation!

Well, well, the research has yielded some interesting connections to the raven. ~Can you sense a connection to and the Beowulf raven? I smiled when I see the raven come forth in both the Norse (pagan) and the early Old Testament sources. The question continues as to the chief motivation behind Beowulf's actions...pagan/Christian.

Barb, I was very interested in what you found in the Norse literature...Odin (a giant?) is associated with the raven AND the wolf. Remember how Grendel's mother was described several times as a she-wolf? We never resolved that, did we? Here is that "wolf" again...a symbol of Odin. Two ravens. Information gatherers. Remember the same was true in Animal Farm? The raven (what was his name?) gathered information on what the piggies were doing...

Maryal, Phyll, the presence of the raven can signify good or evil. What does this raucous raven announcing the day of Beowulf's departure signify?

I read with interest one of the lines from Barbara's source...

Ravens ~ companions of death and destruction, possessing uncanny knowledge of where blood will be shed.

Does the Beowulf audience recognize the presence of the raven as ominous...do they know without having it stated, that there is trouble ahead for Hrothgar? Do they know why Hrothgar weeps at Beowulf's departure?

We are told that two "forebodings disturbed him, but one was stronger: nevermore would they meet each other face to face.' And he says this right after Beowulf offers to come to his aid whenever he faces another challenge.

line 1880 where the thanes begin their trip home is like a movie in my mind. I believe it is the old Prince Valiant funny papers that gave me the pictures of the young men in the mail marching to the swan neck prowed ships and the sea black and cold as the north sea is supposed to be in literature. Oh I can see the ship plunging as they sailed from Denmark. This to me is a really beautiful passage in the epic. Then whop your in the middle of a folk tale of the mean queen, a contrast to be sure to the present sweet queen. I get side tracked in these short folk tales the scopes throw in to make some kind of points in the general poem. Even Beowulf it seems can't stick to the point when telling the King his story he digress' and tells other tales and finally gets to the point of recieving treasure which he has brought home and now presents to King Hygelac.

At this point we learn that Beowulf had not been in high regard until now. He had "been poorly regarded by the Grets, was taken for less than he was worth." So it is with new esteem that the King now presents him with the best example of a jewel studded sword in the kindom. He now has another sword(heirloom of Hrethels). He is my Prince Valient again. Fae

Speaking of Beowulf's motivation, I have wondered if the answer might be in that passage that Faith just quoted. He seemed to have a poor reputation as a young man, and maybe he was trying to prove himself by doing some glorious deed. I thought it was curious that this was mentioned in the story at all. It's the kind of realistic detail that makes you wonder if the poet is relating a true fact of Beowulf's history. Otherwise, why mention it at all?

Line 2190: they firmly believed that he lacked force, that the prince was a weakling, but presently every effront to his deserving was reversed." There is a footnoot Shasta that says this account is inconsistant with Beowulfs own account of his youth and his adventure with Beca. So I wonder too if it isnt put in as an indicator of his motivation in being so brave and enduring to prove to his father as sons want to do that indeed he is of great worth. fr

The raven has played a varied role in literature- sometimes good and sometimes evil. Poe's raven brings dark comfort to his broken heart. He remains in the shadow of the raven forever more. In the OT, Leviticus 11/15, the raven is a declared by Yahwey an abomination-an object to be loathed. In Job, Yahwey asks Job" who provideth for the raven his food when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of food?" The answer is Yahwey. They may be an abomination but God feeds them. In the NT in Luke we find men compared to the raven. Consider the ravens, are ye better than they? How does all this relate to the Raven in line 1801? The raven in Beowulf differs from any I have encountered before. It is a gleeful raven who announces the dawn, not the abomination nor the gloomy raven of Poe but a messenger as in Noah- a messenger who with raucus glee announces the joy of heaven-the dawn. Why not the cock?

The need to prove one's worth to peers and parents is strong motive to send a boy on a quest. There may be more but if not, this motive may alone be sufficient to explain Beowulf's voyage to the Danes. There are some cracks in the hypothesis, however. The men who joined him in the quest had confidence in his great power. He did not appear weak to his peers but he did to the lord of the Geats. "The prince appeared weak to those in the mead hall". Were his companions not seated in the mead hall-they were Thanes? Perhaps, only the Prince sat upon the benches. His companions might not have yet earned their way. There is more. The swimming stories would have affirmed his powers at a young age. And what about the credentials he offers Hrothgar? On Line 340 we find the "man whose name was known for courage" and on line 418 we find " all knew of my awesome strength. They had seen me boltered in the blood of enemies." Are these lines the lines of a seasoned warrior or the bragging of an untried youth? We need motivation for the voyage, but I shall wait awhile to see what else we uncover as the poem progresses.

You bring up interesting questions and inconsistancies, Justin We'll have to sit tight, but I have a feeling that some of our questions just may have been obvious to the early audience and therefore the scop may not have found it necessary to explain. We can hope.

Sometimes the scop comes right out and tells us things about Beowulf's character. Like when he says, "He was a considerate man." That is something that we could have figured out from the way he handled the situation with Unferth's sword. Never did tell him that Hrunting was useless, but rather, thanked him, told him he found it a "friend in battle and a powerful help." Why did he do that? We see that Beowulf doesn't always tell things the way they are. I suppose this could be in the white lie category, but it is a pretty big one, isn't it?

Why is he so considerate of Unferth? I haven't found a good anwer for that. Unferth questioned his account of the swimming contest with Brecca . Do you suppose Unferth was right about that ~ and Beowulf knows it?

Here's another one....even bigger. When B. arrived at Hrothgar's court, he let it be known that he represented the Geats' desire to help. Now we learn that the king, Uncle Hygelac dreaded and pleaded with him NOT to go. Why did he tell Hrothgar otherwise? Would Hrothgar have accepted his help if he knew that Beowulf did not have the backing, the approval of the Geatland king?

Shasta thinks he was trying to prove himself...to himself? To his men, his peers, or the king?

Faith, why do I think Beowulf's father, Ecgtheow, is no longer living? If B. is trying to prove himself, he is trying to impress Uncle Hygelac, who didn't want him to go in the first place. And why would he want to impress the king? Pride? Power?

Beowulf's motivation is still a big question mark, isn't it?

Faith, I loved that passage too...the description of the trip home...The bird image continues..that raucus raven seeing them off and the white swan-ship, her foamy neck fleet and bouyant as the wind lifted her home...across the gannet's bath. Black and white...

So happy to see you reunited with your Prince Valiant...and now that he has his own kingdom, you two should be very happy together. We do need to talk about the mean queen who didn't like to be stared at. I feel there is another reason for her story here...other than to emphasize the virtues of Hygelac's young queen is. Whatever, Fae, please go easy at those who stare at your renowned beauty...

Passing cups of mead and wine.? this fae has to find a way to be an influance over the prince's and their thanes. Queens have to produce the Kings of the future so they had to have a lot to say about the politics of the court and I can imagine it happened in bed in whispers. And see Joan after she is so mean her father ships her off and marries her off to a prince. Now she becomes a social success and a good and gracious Queen to her Prince Offa, and her devotion helped him become known and honored far and wide as a generous and good King. So I take back my snide remarks about the Queens...they are so necessary and who know what made her so mean as a virgin unless it was in an attempt to keep that beauty and virginity untouched among those rough warriors. fae

... I don't know how to explain this , but I think I'm turning into one of these ladies. I'm turning into Hygd. No, maybe Mod ~ she's a bit older, and has a bit of history herself. Far more interesting to me than the virtuous Hygd.

Easter is a time for family get-togethers. This weekend there will be a stepmother and other in-laws who are "on the outs", gathering at my table. I see my role as that of a peacemaker. But it can't be obvious or they will see through my attempts and not respond positively. If it is perceived by one DIL that I am trying to get her to make nice with other DIL, she will have to save face and turn away.

Add to the mix the 90 yr.old stepmother who at any moment is apt to come out of her musings on the past and into the present ...with a sudden grasp of the underlying tension and no restraints on commenting on this perception. Oh yes, this will require all the tact and wisdom of one of these fine queens, on my part. The important thing is to keep first and foremost in my mind the gripes and hurts of all parties, not to take sides and make them all feel comfortable in one another's presence.

I've forgotten Weahltheow. She'd know how to handle it, but she's not here at the moment. She's back in Daneland. Hygd has been favorably compared to her..."generous and wisdom her years." But Modhth is the one that really interests me. She has a history. She has overcome her ways to become the "great queen" the scop describes.

Fae, that is as good an explanation for Modth's extreme response to the staring that I've heard anywhere. She wants to save herself for her future husband! She realizes that her marriage will be arranged with a foreign king and she doesn't want to be damaged goods when the time comes. OK then, let the starers be drawn, quartered and eviscerated. Word will get out that she is off-limits.

It would appear that her marriage is a good one. Her role as peace-maker in Offa's kingdom is said to have led to his reputation as the most generous king that ever lived. Good for Modth! Wish me luck in my Modth ways...let me overcome my impulses, my quick tongue to weave peace in my hall this weekend.

Still not sure why the action of Beowulf's return has come to such an abrupt halt to tell of "great" queen Modth at this point...

I guess I see it all as part of the overall theme of generosity in this chapter. It seems that Beowulf is following Hrothgar's advice... that it is not enough to be a strong and courageous warrior, but that to succeed in life, he must be a generous gift-giver. That means forgetting himself, becoming selfless, overcoming any tendencies toward selfishness...just as Modth did. Beowulf appears to be following Hrothgar's advice to the letter, doesn't he?

Maybe the reason for including the history of Modth's past is the same reason we are told of Beowulf's youthful ways ~they both overcame their youthful tendencies...are now generous and selfless and seem destined to rule happily...

Be generous! Find peace!

Joan pass plenty of mead in the hall Sunday and of course bit your tongue. I remember a few gatherings like that but we are all to old in my family now. The young ones that are at logger heads are either on their best behavior or dont show up which is ok with everyone who wants a peaceful family gathering. As I said, Queens are very important especially in their own castle. Fae

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." I wish we had a peacemaker in my family. Don't seem to have any talent for it myself.

Shasta just pretend you are the Queen of the HOusehold and expect obedience. heheheh or have them drawn and quartered. fae

Now I am reading The Dragon Wakes...boy this is a convoluted tale with several stories in it. That Beowulf is now King becomes apparent, and but some of his feats before he was king are told. He is still swimming to safety. Does anyone know of any other swimming hero in literature? I don't. I have been bemused by Beoulf and Brecca in their north sea swimming contest, and now they tell how he swam-(line-2355)from Friesland back home with thirty battle dresses he had won on his shoulder. What a prodigious feat. He beat them in Friesland and swam back home? Hygelac was dead and the queen offered him the throne. What an adventure.

Goodness, Joan and I both have company coming for Easter! I am luckier than she is though because my people all get along. A lucky break. I have walked on too many eggshells in my life to do THAT again. I find that temporary deafness works well when unpleasant comments fly. When someone looks to me for a response, I say Sorry, I missed that. Usually the speaker chooses not to repeat whatever it was. I also am practiced at keeping my face in the neutral zone. This comes from having a very mobile face that I have had to learn to tame. When I am comfortable, I let it go where it wants, but in awkward social situations, I "zone out."

As for Beowulf, I spent some time driving to work this morning thinking about what a shame it was that there was just this one manuscript and that we know so little about it. There are parts in the poem that seem to me to have come from somewhere else, the story of "Great Queen Modthryth," she who as a young women had men killed for simply allowing their eyes to take her in and then turned into such a good queen after she married is but one example.

What I wonder is if there were not perhaps a number of different stories, mostly about Beowulf, existing in written form which this author wrote down. Because the stories are from different sources, some of the parts don't quite fit such as the "hero status" and general good reputation that Beowulf has (not to mention that swimming contest) and the evaluation of him when he was younger, that "He had been poorly regarded/ for a long time, was taken by the Geats/ for less than he was worth..." (2183-2185). IF there were numerous stories that this writer is putting together, some of them may have included the information about his unpromising youth while others may have presented him as a great hero from the beginning.

There just is simply no way of knowing. We don't even know if the writer of this manuscript was copying another manuscript that someone else had written and so on, given that the basic job of a monk was to copy manuscripts not to originate them.

The Up Side of all this is that the Poem presents a rich mine for scholars of Old English to mine and argue about and print endless articles.

Happy Easter or Peaceful Passover to all. Think of me scurrying around tomorrow to stock food and try to remember how to cook.

~Maryal

I hate to brag but I'm going to this time. My father died, and my mother was very depressed--and I had read all the young adult books in the public library--not very many--so I taught myself to read Anglo-Saxon then read Beowulf. I was 14 years old.

Faith: Try Edgar Rice Burrough's Tarzan for a swimming hero. Where would Jane and the apes be were it not for Tarzan the ape man.

Say only nice things about each one. Focus particularly on comments about people at the table who have contributed in some way to the welfare of others.( Charitable donations etc, very good to talk about at tax time.) Fail to wear your hearing aids and look blank when nasty comments are made and hope that each one discovers in the course of dinner that they are lucky they belong to such a wonderful, giving,family. It took me years to get two out of three daughters to appreciate one another's talents without jealousy and to share their skills and to rely upon each other.

Justin it is true I forgot about Tarzan but he didnt carry thiry warrior mail outfits!! I cant think of a mythical hero that could. faith

SCOOTERGIRL! WELCOME HERE!...consider me/us IMPRESSED!

A fourteen year old girl...reading Beowulf...in Anglo-Saxon. Self-taught!!! I hope you do scoot back in here...we want to debrief you! Do you remember what motivated you to do that? Do you remember what you thought of it...what caught your attention? And did you read it again as an adult? What an interesting thing for a young girl to undertake! Stunning! I can't think of anyone I know who did anything like that.

I taught pre-school years ago and there was a little two year old boy whose father had been ill for a long time...and his mother spent much time caring for him. The two-year old taught himself to read...when left alone for periods of time with his books. By the time I met him...he was 28 months, he was reading books with no pictures. He read "Kotex Feeeeeeeeemine Napkins" on the dispenser in the bathroom the preschool used...and asked me what that meant. Still clearly remember that.

I hope you find your way back here, Scootergirl.

Maryal, that is a brilliant deduction! Well, I think so. We already know there were were multiple copies of the one manuscript around...but the extant copy...a combination of others? This sent me to the search button...when I should be making the bunny cake...and came up with a few interesting factoids, but nothing to confirm this deduction of yours! Yet! I'll admit in my heart of hearts, that we'll never really know what went on over the centuries, but it's fun looking at the possibilities, isn't it? Here are some of the things I found...simmered down for public consumption...all from this one source. It made me aware of just how much liberty the transcribers took with the interpretation of the documents.

For Beowulf survives in only one manuscript, and that a badly damaged one. The handwriting of the two scribes, the orthographic conventions, and the damage done to the manuscript make it very difficult to decipher and understand the text. But modern transcriptions, translations, and interpretations are also influenced by hypotheses about the origins of the poem and the author. Many scholars have assumed that the poem originates in the eighth century and was orally transmitted, through a variety of Old English dialects, to the tenth or eleventh century, when it was written down by scribes who had no relation to the original text and copied mechanically.(1)1 Beowulf, then, would be a late (Christian) copy of an earlier Germanic epic, a view that still persists in most anthologies.

In the 18th century, a transcription was made, by a Dane named Grimus Jonsson Thorkelin. Thorkelin was the first to study the manuscript, and publish it.

Thorkelin obviously realized the value of the text, because he procured the services of an employee of the British Museum to make a copy of it. manuscript posed obvious difficulties for Mr. Matthews, who had knowledge of neither Old English, nor this particular handwriting.

His mistakes that must have been obvious to anybody who knows Old English, left Thorkelin dissatisfied with the product and he took it upon himself to make another copy, now called Thorkelin B (Ny kgl. Saml. 512).

Thorkelin was an editor, rather than simply a copyist...and often enough came with interpretations of his own.

When Thorkelin prepared his editio princeps, he did not have the original manuscript at hand anymore, and although he claimed that his transcription (

was the first complete and correct one, it is evident that he had to rely heavily on the A copy to produce his 1815 edition and translation.(7) In 1815, Thorkelin published his edition of the poem, and the modern history of Beowulf started.

I'm sorry, I got side-tracked with all that. What I really came in was to talk about those two scribes who transcribed the manuscript that we have today. Two, because there are two handwritings on the manuscript. This is all in the same source as in the above post.

Beowulf was copied by two scribes, with very distinctive handwritings, the second one taking over the first scribe's work in line 1939

That sent me to the text...hoping to find a difference in something...in line 1939. I find some differences around line 1950...The source goes on about these two...
The manuscript was proofread by both scribes.

As to the scribes' work, what editors have failed to appreciate fully is the huge amount of corrections made by both. The first scribe proofread and corrected his part, and the second scribe (who took over in line 1939) proofread and corrected the whole text, including the first scribe's work, after he finished copying.

Beowulf apparently was so important to the second scribe that he, some twenty years after the original copying, worked on the manuscript again. But contrary to what earlier editors have said...the original text was (poorly) erased and a new one written. The present defective state of this folio is probably due to the new text having been written on a page still damp from the process of erasing, and readings that appear to be errors are caused by the old text shining through. (The new text is notably shorter than the old one, and three more lines have been willfully erased from the top of folio 180. All this points to a revision rather than to a simple restoration of a faded text.

Scootergirl!~~My goodness. I am impressed that you learned Old English when but a girl. I studied Old English in college and had trouble with it though I did get to the point that I could read it. Such an undertaking would not have occurred to me when I was 14. My mother, who had older brothers in school taught herself to read when she was three or four. She never remembered when exactly. She told me she learned by reading her brother's school books, but she couldn't remember a time when she didn't know how to read. Odd, because I remember distinctly coming home from first grade and telling my mother that I would show her all the words I knew in one of HER books. I remember pointing out "the" and "he" and "she." That's about it. I was FIVE. sigh.

Justin~~ I agree with all your Easter Dinner recommendations. I have no trouble hearing EXCEPT when present at certain family occasions when I seem to say, "Hmmmmmmm?" quite a lot. Works for me.

Joan~~Thanks for the additional information about our sole surviving manuscript. I had forgotten (if I ever knew) that there are two distinct hands. Most interesting. Perhaps we need to hold a seance to bring back those two monks and question them.

~Maryal

This is the very last post...I promise! It's the real reason I came in here, which is why I don't want to skip it, even though I've used up all my bytes for today...

Of course, this leads to the question why just one folio of the manuscript had to be revised and a tentative and exciting answer is that during the copying process (rather than centuries before) two originally separate stories were put together. Folios 179 and 180 contain the transition between Beowulf's fights with Grendel and Grendel's dam, and his fight with the dragon: in lines 2207-8, at the top of 179 recto, the Geats' realm passes into Beowulf's hands. Physical evidence from the manuscript proves that the copyist was more than a simple monk who restored a text and did a very poor job. He seems to have played an editor's role if not a writer's. source

... Naturally, if a poem is already three or four centuries old before it is written down, and orally transmitted through a variety of dialects, it is reasonable to assume that it has been changed and corrupted in the course of timeto bet on.

While critics no longer search for a Germanic Ur-Beowulf, the editions of the poem that we study today have to a considerable extent been influenced by the assumption that there was an Ur-version of our poem, and that the Beowulf-manuscript is at the end of a long line of transmissions. But physical evidence from the manuscript itself validates its authority in relation to text and content. The manuscript was originally a single, individual text, and the scribes' minute attention, proofreading, and revising point to a contemporary interest (if not a creative interest) that counters the modern readiness to improve upon it. Perhaps it is time for a new edition.(15) Modern technology (IR and UV photography, better lighting), but more importantly, a different attitude may enable editors to better appreciate the manuscript as we have it, and thus create a new Beowulf. Modern criticism has done away with many of the assumptions of earlier critics, but the next step is a necessary one: to produce a new edition of the poem, untainted by assumptions that color the Beowulf in our text books.

Amen...

...hahahaha...and one final word of thanks to all of your advice on peace-weaving...whoever said that it was an easy job didn't know what they were talking about...downplaying Wealtheow's role like that. I think it was Valiant's queen who said that!

Just think of these poor girls getting sent off to a warring country to marry their fathers'enemies. I'd be scared to death. It probably didn't work out too often. One little girl and all those vengeful men! Shasta is smart. She knows her limitations! Something must have really scared Modth...she turned from a demanding...into a successful peacemaker.

Wish me luck tomorrow...and I wish you all joy and peace.

in those days from marriage and relationships as we do. I don't think the concept of marrying for love was something they realistically thought about. They were objects of barter. Especially in the ruling families, they were traded for property, or settlement of feuds or arguments, or to strengthen alliances and to extend the line of the rulers. Almost never for love, I understand. What did it matter to the men in the trade whether the marriage "worked out" or not? The women served their purpose and who cared if they were happy or not.

But the intelligent ones, such as Wealhtheow and Hygd, figured out pretty quickly that if not love, they could have a lot of influence with their husbands and their followers if they were good and generous queens, I think. Apparently Modthryth took a while to figure this out and was a real terror in her early days but settled down and became a good queen to Offa. Another old story that in some cases applies today. This is a site that compares Modthryth with Hygd. Queen Hygd

Well, you would have all been proud of me. I wove the peace and hopefully the warring DILs recognized the effort ...and will learn from it. The seating arrangement at the dinner table was the crucial move ~and I was generous with the mead, just as you advised. Thanks, all! Personally, I ODed on jelly beans and peeps, but should get back to normal soon (they are almost gone!)

Phyll, do you think that Modth was a queen before she was sent off to marry Offa? I'm a bit confused about that. To me her queenly duties only really began once she was married. And she did very well. But when in her own kingdom...was she the bad queen? Or more a petulant princess?

Beowulf, the swimmer! I have another for you. Remember Aquaman?

Aquaman is the hereditary King of the underwater city-state of Atlantis. Because of his ability to communicate telepathically with all sea life - sea birds, fish, mammals, etc. - he is sometimes thought of as the "King of all the oceans". A stern and austere leader, Aquaman is protective of his underwater environment. As leader of a technologically advanced society, Aquaman has kept a wary eye on the "surface dwellers" for years, resentful of their wanton disregard for the ecology of his beloved oceans.

Until his appearance in Metropolis, both Aquaman and his lost city were thought to be mere legends.

A potentially dangerous enemy for Superman, he also holds the promise of being a great and helpful ally. Only time will tell which of the two paths their relationship will take.

No, besides Aquaman, I can't come up with another swimming warrior/athlete except Tarzan.

Wait a minute...how about Poseidon, Neptune? Surely he could swim, this god of the deep? Will look for something on him this afternoon. It is clear that the underwater creatures play an important part in the lives of the Danes, Geats.

Are you ready to fast forward to OLD Beowulf? How old do you estimate him to be now? Can he still swim? The dragon lives by the sea, guarding his hoard. I thought that was an interesting environment for a dragon...

Well, maybe I owe Beowulf an apology. When he said he swam home and brought 30 coats of armor with him, I figured he was telling another whopper. But a friend of mine assures me that it could have been done if he made a raft and loaded all the armor on it and pulled it with a rope tied around his waist. He reminded me of that exercise guru who used to have an exercise show on TV. He was such a powerful swimmer that he could pull a ship. I can't remember his name. It was a French name and he Anglicized it -- Jack LaLanne or something.

(Of course, skeptic that I am, I never believed he could pull a ship. I suspect these great swimmers have great imaginations.)

But can you picture old Beowulf after the battle was over, going around the battlefield and stripping the armor off the corpses so he could take it all home with him?

The age of Beowulf can be estimated from clues in the poem. He was probably twenty to twenty-five at the time of his fight with Grendel and his Mom.We can add fifty years for his reign as king. The missing portion, the time spent in Friesland with Hygelic and the period of Heardred, mature and immature, is hard to quantify. Several battle seasons are required to contain the events described. The maturing of Heardred could require as much as ten years. More is unlikely. Beowulf's age could well be approaching ninety years when the dragon rears it's fiery head.

This is an excerpt from a piece written by Angela E. Pfile, 1997, in The Newsletter of Anglo-Saxon Studies at The University of Georgia. In it she is writing of the five queens that appear in Beowulf.

".....it is worth noting the social, family, or national roots of each queen. Both Hildeburh and Freawaru are clearly the daughters of Danish kings, while Hygd is simply noted as Haerethes dohtor (Beowulf 1929a), and we know little about the origins of Modthryth, save that her father seems to have been a king. Our knowledge of Wealhtheow's background is even more sketchy--the name, which may mean "foreign slave," suggests that her background may not be as noble as those of the other four queens. Fred C. Robinson has argued that theod[nes] dohtor (2174a), an epithet which has been associated with Wealhtheow, actually refers to Hygd, and Thomas D. Hill and Christine Fell both point to the Anglo-Saxon slave-woman Bathi ld, who married Clovis II of the Franks and became a power in his court and kingdom, as an example of the possibility of a marriage between a king and a female slave. Thus, Wealhtheow's name may precisely describe her background. This would put Wealhtheow in a particularly odd position within her society. William A. Chaney states that in a "kin-centered society such as that Of the Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic peoples," where "common descent bound the social group together and provided the basis of unity," a man (or woman) would have "identified himself by his lineage and by the lord whom he followed" (18). The other four queens can be, at least partially, "identified . . . by lineage," but Wealhtheow can be identified only by her position in Hrothgar's court.

So, according to this researcher, at least, Modthryth was the daughter of a king. I wonder if maybe that would explain why she was so rotten before she was tamed by her husband king. Upper class arrogance? Being accustomed to and expecting the privileges of a ruling class? If so, she carried it a bit too far since she had anyone who dared look at her punished severely. Apparently her husband was much older than she so perhaps his wisdom and authority played a part in changing her into a good queen. And the fact that she became devoted to him must have played a part in her change of character as is described here:

"In days to come 
she would grace the throne and grow famous 
for her good deeds and conduct of life, 
her high devotion to the hero king 
who was the best king, it has been said, 
between the two seas or anywhere else 
on the face of the earth. (lines 1951-1957)"

Is it just me, or are too you having a difficult time transitioning into the "old Beowulf" ? (Goodness, Justin ~ you estimate he could be 90! Well no wonder he's not as confident in his own strength and abilities as he once was. I'm not sure why he insists on going up against the dragon alone. Pride? We really have to work at this, don't we? Shasta, you are a hoot! I'm sure B. accepts your apologies and would be the first to admit at this advanced age, that many of the stories of his youthful Aquaman super feats were vastly exaggerated!)

I read this Dragon Wakes chapter three times to grasp what is going on. It is becoming clear that the Dragon, the hoard he is guarding and all the struggles for power, fame, treasure and glory in the past are all part of the whole.

We fast-forwarded 50 years into the future right from the start. I guess I was ...disappointed. We learn Beowulf is king, a good, wise king, but with no explanation as to how that came about. What happened to Uncle Hygelac? Hygd's two sons? And 50 years later we know that Hrothgar and his great hall are history, but we don't know what happened to him. Did he ever call on Beowulf for help again as he promised B. he'd do? He did have a premonition that something bad was in the offing and that he'd never lay eyes on Beowulf again...but what happened?

I must say I didn't like the trip into the future in the time machine, even though we are given a quick summation later into the chapter about what happened to everyone in the past. Was this a stylistic device? Did the early Beowulf audiences like this sort of thing?

Still trying to work out what happened, but the marriages those daughters endured didn't seem to help keep the peace much of the time. Imagine how terrible it would be to be married off to a sometime enemy, to fail as peaceweaver, and to live with a bunch of people who were ravishing your homeland, your family?

Phyll, thanks for the source on the social status of the queens. I liked the way Weahltheow reached out to Hygd, sending her that gold torque through Beowulf. These two are not from royal families..and maybe that's why they make better peace-weavers? No haughtiness...and the weight of preserving the peace between their husbands and fathers is not as great.

There's another queen who plays a role in this chapter...or at least in the past that is referred to in this chapter. There's King Hrothgar's sister (does she have a name? I don't see it in the geneology chart.) Hrothgar's sister marries the Frank, Onela... who ends up killing Uncle Hygelac's son, which is how Beowulf comes to be King of the Geats. Lots to sort out...or NOT! Do we have that much time? I'm thinking that all these relationships and conflicts were at one time well known to the Beowulf audience...and they didn't need to stop and ponder the implications of the battles and alliances.

But I did think it interesting that Hrothgar's sister's husband is the one who was responsible for putting Beowulf on the throne after killing Hygelac's son. Hygd tried to keep her son off the throne, wanted Beowulf to take it, thinking her Heardred was not strong enough to defend the Geats (and himself), but no one listened to her...

Did you find this chapter easy reading? I suppose the real thrust is on the conflict between Beowulf and the dragon...but the dragon represents something more than meets the eye here, and I suspect that all that has gone on before has much to do with it...

Yes Joan I am very involved with the fight with the dragon. And pondering the relationship between Wiglaf and Beowulf. It is obvious he loves the old king and is the only younger thane to come to his aid in this battle walking through death stench to get to him. Beowulf is having difficulty with his sword, Naeglin as he snapped when connecting with the dragons skull. Beoulf never has had any luck with his swords. His stroke is too strong for iron- the scope sings. Wiglaf's ancestral sword, decorated and wielded for love of his king, serves him well. Oh what a battle. I have stopped at 2695 to contemplate the old King (Justin I accept your estimate of 90)and I am going back to read his final boast again to see if I can find more of a motive. I always thought Kings sent their young men to fight but here we have this old King meeting the dragon.Indeed he is valient... fae

Fae, m'luv...I haven't reached that chapter yet...am still trying to get a handle on The Dragon Wakes. Won't even read your post until next week or there will be absolutely no suspense left...

How did you feel when you began the chapter, the Dragon Waits...when the action fast-forwarded 50 years?

What does this dragon represent?

What does the dragon represent?asks JoanThe dragon/other monster- is the guardian of the gates of the underground. In psychology this is the unconcious. When the hero must decend into the darkness underground and slay the dragon this is saying the hero must make the decent into his own unconcious and there confront his inner dragons. Then he can give and take freely in society and remain balanced. I think in Beowulf we see this twice once when the warrior is a young man rash and boastful, certainly not ready to lead men or be the King. He fights not only the male but the female monsters archtypes which man must do. He then leads men in successful wars and rules for 50 years as a good king. Now at the end of his life he is depressed and lonesome for his more active days.Nearing death he is like old warriors in all times of history, he needs to confront his demons again. The dragon (unconconcious demons)is upsetting his kingdom, disturbing his peaceful old age so again he makes one last boast and the decends into the darkness (the unconconcious where the demons hoard is)to confront the last of his demons -the dragon.

When we read the whole poem with these and of course other archtypes in mind we have an underlying understanding of the man the poets sing about.Fae

Fae...that is really an interesting concept...the dragon as Beowulf's own subconsciousness. Hmmm...what is lurking there, what unfinished business that B. feels he must fight himself?

I remember reading this chapter...the dragon was so furious that someone had found and stolen one cup, one single cup, that he began looting and killing the neighboring farmers and didn't stop until he reached Beowulf's own hall. And it was then, and only then that the Geat king felt he must go after that dragon. I remember thinking to myself that he was doing nothing to defend his people...until his own home was burned to the ground.

You mention that B. is now old, depressed and lonely. That makes me wonder...where is his peace-weaver. Whom did he marry? Does he have children? Maybe we'll find that out in the last two chapters. But there doesn't appear to be anyone who is keeping the peace and urging him to make gifts. If he is lonely, that implies that he hasn't been doing such a good job as ring-giver. He's been hoarding then? Just like the dragon?

Looked up Dragon in the An Illustrated Encyclopaedia... it has lots to say so let me sift it -

A complex and universal symmbol. The dragon, the "winged serpent,' combines the serpent and bird as matter and spirit. Originally it was wholly beneficent as the manifestations of the life-giving waters (the serpent) and the breath of life (the bird) and was identified with the sky gods and their earthly delegatioes: emperors and kings. Later it becaem ambivalent as both the fertilizing rains, following thunder, and the destructive forces of lightning and flood.

The Dragon and the serpent are interchangable as representing the unmanifest; the undifferentiated; chaos; the latent; untamed nature; also the life-giving element of woater. The dragon can be two-sided, either as a rain god or an enemy of the rain god, preventing rain from falling.

Dragons as monsters are autochthonous 'masters of the ground' against which heroes, conquerors and creators must fight for mastery or occupation of the land; they are also guardians of treasures and of the portals of esotoric knowledge. The struggles with the dragon symbolizes the difficulties to be overcome in gaining the treasures of inner knowledge.

Killing the dragons is the conflict between light and darkness, the slayinf of the destrctive forces of evil, or man overcoming his own dark nature and attaining self-mastery.

No particular symbol for the Scandinavians but the Christian symbol is; -- the dragon is equaited with the serpent, the power of evil, the Devil, the Tempter, the enemy of God: it also represents death and darkness, paganism and heresy, Subduers of dragons represent victory over the powers of evil and heresy. The Archangel Michael defeating the dragon in the victory of the sun god over darkness, adapted to Christianity as the defeat of Satan.

Why do we have to assume Beowulf is 90 years old? I thought all those battles were fought during his 50-year reign, not after it. I think Beowulf is only 70. At 70, you can still fight the dragons, but at 90, your dragon days are over.

In two of the translations I am reading, the dragon is spoken of as a "worm." I keep trying to understand why a fierce, fire-breathing monster like a dragon should be called a worm. I have difficulty picturing Beowulf in all his shining armor charging a worm.

I agree with Faith. You can only make sense of the dragon if you interpret it psychologically. Why would a serpent-like creature be guarding gold and other treasures? What use would he have for any of that stuff? In every myth there is a core of psychological truth. This is why myths survive, no matter how nonsensical they seem. Instinctively, we know what the dragon really is, so we continue to accept dragons even though we know they don't exist.

Yes I agree with you Shasta and Faith and particularly like what the book on symbolic meaning says "they are also guardians of treasures and of the portals of esotoric knowledge. The struggles with the dragon symbolizes the difficulties to be overcome in gaining the treasures of inner knowledge."

Since the symbolism for Dragons are similar to part of the symbolism for snakes the early fight that Beowulf had with the underwater monsters and snakes could have a symbolic meaning as well. Almost a coming to age ceremony, a battle under the seas, with inner knowledge the prize that a young man needs to acquire in order to fight battles with a Grendal, his mother and later the Devil himself in the form of a Dragon. I guess I see the Devil as simply the ego that because of its demands for comfort, closes us off from our inner knowledge.

I have no evidence, just a feeling, when I read "The Dragon Wakes", that I'm reading the work of another poet...that the young B and the old B are separate poems nailed together.It's just a feeling.

Shasta: In the Friesland period Hygelic was King and the Heardred Period followed that. It is only after that the fifty year reign begins. Who says ninety is too old? I expect to be pretty spry at that age. My Dad died at ninety-seven and we had to force him into the coffin. B is a pretty tough guy. Besides, if Faith is right he is only fighting his own conscience.

Barbara, that is such enlightening information about the symbolism of the dragon ~ I smiled at the dual symbolism ~ ie. "a rain god or an enemy of the rain god." It reminded me of the symbolism associated with the raven.

guardian of treasure, guardian of the portal of esoteric knowledge.
"guardians of treasures"... I think of the "treasures" in this sense as Beowulf's inner consciousness, self-knowledge, rather than the dragon as his inner consciousness.

Your source recognizes the dragon as "symbolizing the difficulties in gaining this inner knowledge."

I like that...it fits. Beowulf must get through these difficulties, past this dragon to achieve his inner knowledge. Then that's why he must fight the dragon alone.

The issue seems to me to be: what is Beowulf striving to learn? When he learns that his home is burned to the ground, he doesn't rise to the challenge of rebuilding, doesn't assemble an army to fight off yet another tribe of invaders. No, he goes instead into deep depression.

"The wise man thought he must have thwarted
ancient ordinance of the eternal Lord,
broken His commandment. "

What commandment could that have been? I can only think of one. But will wait to hear if you arrive at the same. It is very clear now why Beowulf is fighting this "worm" alone. He is struggling with his own conscience.

Shasta, your translation calls this dragon a "worm"...that is fascinating. Barbara's source describes a dragon as part serpent, part bird, as I recall. Serpent - the devil approached Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent. Serpents snake through the earth...as worms do. Worm is a put-down of a serpent in my book! Wonderful! Which translation are you reading, Shasts? I have forgotten. Does anyone else find the dragon described otherwise?

hahahahaaha...Justin, I have no doubt at all that you will be taking on dragons...and tilting with windmills when you reach 90! No doubt at all.

I get that same feeling...the young and old Beowulf's seem to be the work of two different poets, "nailed" together...

Great posts, everyone! You are providing so much insight and so much to talk about. Will be back shortly...ideas are sparking ~hate to have to go.

Later!
Joan

Yes the dragon is guarding the treasure (what Beowulf is attempting to access ie subconcious.) Now if you remember as a young man he did not take the treasure in Grendels mothers cave. No. The monsters were guarding that treasure too, but all he took was his sword and grendels head. Why did he ignore the "vast treasure". Well he was young and boastful and had successfully killed the monsters bring back head ( and tales of the feat)What regrets he may have as an old man that he ignored his own self to the exclusion of war and warriors pursuits. He has "nothing". A kill to remember. Has he offended the Gods in some way that he has no inner peace. So back he goes to find the Treasure guarded by this Dragon and Joan I don't want to get ahead of you again so I will stop here but this treasure is the one that counts in a long lifetime. You will see that when you read on I think. Fae

Okay, Justin, maybe you are right. If he could swim for hours underwater without oxygen, why shouldn't he be able to fight dragons at age 90?

The dragon is not the human conscience. That's a conscious part of the human psyche. The dragon is the animal component we've inherited from our animal ancestors. It's all the animal instincts that we have struggeled so hard for eons to civilize out of ourselves. You've heard the saying: "Scratch a human and you find an animal underneath." We've suppressed all those instincts but they are still there, lurking underground, and if you want to find out what else lies within the depths of the human psyche, you first have to get past this dangerous layer of animalism--the dragon.

Shasta yes, I was just reading about that in Discovery magazine. Don't you think there are treasures though, in the acknowledgement of the unconcious mind and what it leads us to think and do on other layers of reality? I think Beowulf ignored his opprotunities to conquer impluse after slaying Grendle, so he went right on proving his warrior status and ignored self to his detriment. Now in his old age he is alone and no children to carry on for him, no wife for his aged comfort. Cambell would have said this hero's journey is not finished. fae

Shasta: Animalism in the depths of the human psyche is the dragon? Boy, that's an interesting concept. We humans do have a dark side, I'm sure of it and every once in a while the dark side shows. Criminal behavior is one example of it but there is more than that. When we fight back from a cornered position we rely on the animal in us to get us free. We are instinctively aware of danger in some cases and we sometimes respond brutally. I am not sure how all this fits the relationship between B. and the dragon. Do you see the dragon fight as metaphor for B. and his animal characteristics?

Fae, I am glad to hear from you that we are on the right track..."this treasure is the one that counts in a long lifetime."

So. (I love Heaney's "so") Shasta, it is Beowulf's animal instinct that drove him to seek fame and glory, to be king of the heap, lion king. That's why he selected Grendel's head from all the other treasure. His life has played out as a warrior-king. Now in his old age, he's beginning to think that there was more to life than this. He is lonely, depressed, unfulfilled. His first reaction to the burning of his home is revenge. More fighting and war. But he's also wondering if there isn't more to life than this constant warfare and killing...the dragon is tempting him to react instinctively, but something else is going on here, I sense.

Why is Beowulf alone and unfulfilled at this time of his life? Is it because the most important thing in his life has been war and personal glory? Has he been on a life-long ego trip?

I still find it hard to believe that B. wasn't interested in a wife and sons to carry on after him. Something about his sad childhood is nagging as an explanation for this, but not sure what that is about.

So. You all seem to be saying that Beowulf wants to go back to the treasure he missed the first time. I can't see how more gold will make him happy, but do see why he would want to re-examine earlier life choices to learn where he went wrong, or what he could have done differently. Is it too late?

Fae hints that "this hero's journey is not finished." I'm hoping for him that he finds the answers he is looking for...what I'm saying is that I'm hoping for a happy ending for him.

I can't help but compare B. to the early warrior/earl who buried this treasure beside the sea three hundred years earlier. (A strange place to bury treasure, no? Wouldn't you have expected the shore to have eroded after 300 years?)

Picture this person, the only one left, the last of his line, with all this treasure that he spent his life acquiring...he can think of nothing else to do with it that burying it in the sand. Isn't this sad? I sense a similar situation with Beowulf. Wasn't this burial scene powerfully written?

I wonder if that is what most of us do though - very few of us get to share our treasures through the ages or even through the next generation - and here I am thinking learned treasures - spiritual growth - The exception being the influence that I am sure is observed by the younger generation even of Beowulf's time. Since most of us are not published our treasures will not remain above the ground - all the knowledge and spiritual growth we accumulate is buried with our body. And if it where not that way each generation would not have the journey or quest past the dragons for their own treasure.

I wouldn't try to analyze Beowulf's motives too closely because the epic has been re-written and re-interpreted so many times that we are left with a very corrupt version of whatever the original story was. I was just commenting on how ancient myths tend to get embedded into various kinds of literature. When the monk who gave us the version we now have included the dragon myth, I doubt if he was thinking about what Beowulf was really up to; and neither Freud nor Jung were around to explain it to him. He was just relating an old story of bravery, and trying to put a Christian spin on it.

It's interesting that the Chinese revere the dragon. They don't see it as something revolting to be destroyed. They accept it as a powerful life force. I've never been able to understand Oriental mythology; it is utterly opaque to me. I suspect Eastern philosophy is more subtle and sophistocated than Western philosophy, and I have a very unsophistocated mind.

Joan, you asked me which versions I read that called the dragon a worm. It was in the Norton Anthology of Eng. Lit., which contains a prose translation, and also in one of the on-line translations that I read. I forget which one.

I hear you Shasta but oh these symbols are old very old - way before Jung was a twinkle in God's eye - in fact most stories were loaded with symbols - it was the short cut to understanding - we have gotten away from some of them but remember the old barber pole and the Texico Flying horse - we sill have the arches that once the kids spot they know it is hamburger time. I have only read how evidently the cross was a sumbol with very heavy meaning and was used in every shape and form imaginable to define aspects of the meaning. It is just that we have gotten away from so many of these symbols that it takes a dictionary to look them up.

One move that was such an eye opener and is filled with symbolism is "Lady Hawk" down to the color of the horse. Breeze through a symbolism dictionary Shasta and enjoy on as a listener of old.

Barbara, we don't need a dictionary to look them up. Symbols are part of our mental heritage. All you have to do is stop and think what a symbol means, and you will recognize it. The cross is a basic symbol for the crossed condition of the human species. We are the only species that is crossbred from animal and spirit. Christianity picked up this existing symbol because it is appropriate for its purposes. Christ on his Cross is the symbol for the human condition and all the suffering that results from it. Every human being is a "christ on a cross."--a hybred creature.

I found this definition, along with many others, of various kinds of dragons. I never knew there were (or are, if you believe) so many kinds of dragons!

"Wyrm/Worm: Wurm

PHYSIOLOGY: These are dragons which have no legs or wings; Or sometimes referred to as a very ancient dragon. Also known as The Guivre (Gy-veer).

HISTORY: These dragons seem to have originated in England, and are said to live in forests and wells. They love any place near water.There are many famous worms in England's history, the most famous perhaps is the Lambton Worm. This is about an Heir to Lambton Hall in England who caught the small worm, but thought it too ugly to eat, so he thew it in the local well. Over the years the worm grew to enormous proportions and left the well to harass the locals. When Lambton came back from a war to see the horror he had created, and was told by witch he must slay the worm, but also must kill the next creature he saw. He slayed the worm, but unfortunately, the next living creature he saw was his own father, of whom he could not kill. It was said that the Lambton family was cursed for the next nine generations, and doomed to die abroad, and never at home."

Since this reference claims that the "worm" dragon originated in England, I am wondering if this is an insertion in Beowulf by the religious scribes. I have read elsewhere that belief in the existence of dragons disappeared with the arrival of Christianity so perhaps this episode of the slaying of the dragon is meant to depict the "victory" of Christianity over paganism.

Interesting - I do not know of any English painting but Murdoch in her Introduction to The Sea, The Sea speaks of the sea monster that looks a lot like a dragon/worm - and so this must have been an understanding that continued and was popular during the 1500 when Titian painted <Perseus and Andromeda

Yes Shasta it can be the cross between the animal and the spirit - but evidently it is so much more - it is also the world center - the communication between the heaven and earth, the cosmic axis; it represents the Tree of Life and the Tree of Nourishment.

In mediaeval time it was said the cross was made from the wood of the Tree of Knowledge and therefore the cause of the fall and thus the cross became the instrument of the redemption.

The cross represents the archetypal man, capable of infinite and harmonious expansion; the vertical line is the celestial, spiritual, intellectual, positive, active and male - while the horizontal bar is the earthly, rational, passive, negative and female.

The cross is the figure of man at full stretch; the descent of spirit into matter. Which is like the animal into the spirit don't you think.

The cross is the four rivers of Paradise flowing from the root of the Tree of Life, it comprises the cardinal axes; the quaternary under its dynamic aspects, the four elements of the world united at the fifth point, the zenith and Nadir, the North-South East-West; it combines the male and female, hidden wisdom the key to the mysteries of life and knowledge.

It represents the Sun over the horizan, the wheel of change, the wheel of fortune.

Then there are meanings for it if it is -- a double cross - a cross with a hand - a cross with a cresent - a Y cross

Alchemic meaning is the natural order of elements - the rain, stars, wood-fire, maidenhood, and each of the four arms representing a wind with the symbolism for the winds.

This goes on and on with each culture having a different representation of meaning for the cross - everything from health, truth, the moon goddess, Doom, fertility, thunder, six days of creation and six phases of time.

It is amazing - there are two pages of symbolic meaning for the cross in this book alone, with water and the tree, moon, lotus, horns, dog, serpent and swastika the only other symbols having as much or more information and a variety of meaning.

Barbara, thanks for the Titian painting...there is the dragon, alright ~ just as Phyll's source describes him...without legs, or wings. What gets me..is the dragon in the ocean! Has he always been depicted as such? I have always seen the dragon as a flame-thrower...the idea of seeing him in water conflicts with the idea of heat and flame. Is it just me? When I think hard about it, I DO come up with Puff, the magic dragon...he lived in the sea too, didn't he? hmmmmmmmmm...

Shasta, the dragon certainly does have different symbolic meanings in different cultures, doesn't he? Just like the raven. But OUR Beowulf dragon is unlike the Chinese dragon ~ rather something vile and revolting...and destructive to man. Something to contend with or be destroyed.

Phyl, what interesting information! The "wurm"...that grew into the monster in the well... Discarded...not good enough to keep. A big wurm, a serpent. Hmmm...serpents go way back to the story of creation, don't they? Associated with the sin of PRIDE...

You wrote...

"Since this reference claims that the "worm" dragon originated in England, I am wondering if this is an insertion in Beowulf by the religious scribes. I have read elsewhere that belief in the existence of dragons disappeared with the arrival of Christianity so perhaps this episode of the slaying of the dragon is meant to depict the "victory" of Christianity over paganism.">

Two thoughts occurred when I read what you wrote. First, I want to say that the insertion by the Christian scribe(s), if indeed that is what happened, would be just another step in the development of the saga over time...and I think that what we have to examine is the only existing copy that we have before us. Not too shabby, though! It's not as if this just happened 100 years ago...this manuscript was inked over 1000 years ago. It is the oldest piece of English literature in existance. I think we have to prize it for what it is, not for what it was before this copy was made. I spend a lot of time thinking about this...

The second thought..." perhaps this episode of the slaying of the dragon is meant to depict the "victory" of Christianity over paganism" ~ I connected that with a verse from the poem describing this dragon:

"...He is driven to hunt out
hoards under ground, to guard heathen gold
through age-long vigils, though to little avail."

How did you understand this reference to "heathen gold"?

I have more thoughts on Barbara's earlier post about "treasures"...which caused more introspection. But would will hold them for later. What are the treasures you would hope to pass on...besides the grandfather clock in the hall?

There was a series of books my daughter read about a land of Dragons etc. called Perth. She got very involved with Dragons and collected many Dragons, she has the Chinese Dragons, the English "wurm" Dragons, The Winged Flame throwers too. They are crystal, gold, pewter ivory, jade, and it is so magnificent to see she has a special little table for her Dragons. I told her to read Beawulf again now that she knows about Dragons. She said she would. Now this is one of the treasures I leave to my children. A love of literature. I was reading to them in utero and never stopped. I remember when they were in High school and middle school they would sit around me on the floor while I read aloud adventure stories all the while ignoring the new tv in the corner.

As far as the heathen gold is concerned didnt the Christian scribes think of anything prior to or outside of Christianity as heathen. And the defeated King who left his treasure buried is to be pitied as he and his people were vanquished. The gold can not be good nor evil by itself. Treasure never has moral aspects only the people who stole it in the first place and/or the greedy ones who amass it can be identified as good or evil.

I spend little time on disecting which parts of the poem are "original" and which parts are "recreated". As Joan, correctly I think, points out this is the manuscript we have. This is the poem we have to read and enjoy. Norton Critical Edition has much to say about some of this in various essays and I have been reading one(Beowulf Poet's Sense of History by Roberta Frank) that points out that a true sense of history is not natural in mankind and developed late in literture, that the Beowulf scribe was exceptional in including the vast sense of history in the saga, the melding of the pagan or germanic rituals with christian thought. Her essay helps me greatly in understanding the other essays I have read. I begin to have a different map in my head regarding this saga. I see all the different interpetations and disections of the saga as part and parcel of understanding the poem.Including the Hero's Journey interpetation I have given it which of course appears no where in Norton and I only read similiar stuff in J. Campbell works.

I have been back at it listening to the song in Old English. Chills. Fae

What wonderful posts I have been reading. Thinking about dragons, I see the great variety of this mythological being there seems to be--ones with wings, wingless ones. Faith~~I would love to see your daughter's collection. My daughter read that same series of books.

I never did much reading about dragons when I was young. Always the pragmatist and down-to-earth type, I preferred dog books and horse books and mystery books to any "fantasy" tale.

But when I DO think about dragons, I think about all those paintings of St. George killing the dragon. And I think of King Arthur's knights. There's a wonderful painting of a maiden, a dragon, and a knight that I'll try to find on the internet. The dragon may not have wings, not sure.

The dragon goes way way back, as does the serpent, into the darkness of early story tellers. An awe-inspiring fire-breather, it is the ultimate test for any hero. I'm not at all surprised that Beowulf faces a dragon at the end.

Has anyone else noticed that dragons always seem to occur alone? There aren't any stories I can think of where there's a family of dragons or even a pair. A different kind of beast indeed.

I FOUND the painting I was thinking of. It appeared in a poetry book I used for several semesters along with a really interesting poem written in response to it. On the internet, it is in a lesson plan for kids. Most interesting.

Take a good look at the dragon. He doesn't look as if he has enough legs to stand on. The maiden looks bored to death, and St. George is~~well, dashing in full knight-errant-like posture.

When you get to the page, you can click on the painting and make it bigger.

Here's the dragon: http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG6294

I'm glad Phyll provided that information about the worm dragons. I was having a hard time seeing a dragon as a worm. And how interesting that Faith's daughter collects dragons! And what an interesting array of symbols Barbara came up with for the cross.

But you know, Joan, I find the fire-breathing aspect of the dragon puzzling too. I keep asking myself where this could have come from. Symbols always have some sort of source that they are based on. There are water creatures, and there are flying creatures, but there is no creature anywhere that breathes fire. A volcano erupts with a fiery substance, and it is certainly a terrifying and dangerous event when one erupts. This is probably where the idea came from for the fires of Hell. Maybe a dragon has sometimes been understood as a creature from Hell, and therefore a fire-breather.

Maryal, that maiden in the painting should have looked upset and alarmed. What on earth was the painter thinking of to make her stand there looking bored? Notice that she is holding a chain that is tied to the dragon. There is something going on here that I don't get.

Shasta have you seen the giant lizards who's red forked tongues flick in and out to catch food. I often thought a primitive mind could have connected that to fire. Just a thought. Maryal that is a good picture and I too remember it from some book I have somewhere. Probably in one of my kids house as they have most of my library since I am pressed for room in the mobile home. Now Chinese Dragons never have wings. I think I am right. I think wings and fire came later in the stories of Dragons than the "wurm" type. fae

Here is the golden Legend - the reason for her bordem may be buried in the legend.

Faith, you may be right about those lizards. I've never seen one but I've heard of them. That may be exactly where the idea of a fire-breathing dragon came from.

aho found it --

S. George was a knight - by this city was a stagne or a pond like a sea, wherein was a dragon which envenomed all the country.

He came nigh the city he venomed the people with his breath, and therefore the people of the city gave to him every day two sheep for to feed him, because he should do no harm to the people, and when the sheep failed there was taken a man and a sheep. Then was an ordinance made in the town that there should be taken the children and young people of them of the town by lot, and every each one as it fell, were he gentle or poor, should be delivered when the lot fell on him or her.

So it happed that many of them of the town were then delivered, insomuch that the lot fell upon the king's daughter, whereof the king was sorry, and said unto the people: For the love of the gods take gold and silver and all that I have, and let me have my daughter.

Your daughter shall be given, or else we shall burn you and your house. When the king saw he might no more do, he began to weep,...led her to the place where the dragon was. The unhappy girl, dressed as a bride, was led to the swamp and left alone to await the monsterÕs coming.

When she was there Saint George passed by, and when he saw the lady he demanded the lady what she made there and she said: Go ye your way fair young man, that ye perish not also...Then said Saint George: Fair daughter, doubt ye no thing hereof for I shall help thee in the name of Jesu Christ. She said: For God's sake, good knight, go your way, and abide not with me, for ye may not deliver me. Thus as they spake together the dragon appeared and came running to them, and S. George was upon his horse, and drew out his sword and garnished him with the sign of the cross...

as it now appears is the only one that we have to deal with. And I also understand that trying to separate the pagan origins from the Christian "insertions" is futile. However, it seems that I am more interested in the origin of the story and what it tells about the people and places where it was born so I guess I keep trying to decide which parts would have come from the pagan beginnings and which parts might have been added as Christianity became more popular in that part of the world.

I'm puzzled, too, Shasta. Why would the maiden have a dragon on a leash? Very strange.

By the way, here is a site that will tell you all you want to know about the inside of a dragon----and probably MORE than you want to know. <grin> But I think it is interesting! Dragon Physiology

Thanks, Barbara! I find this a most interesting site. It even has useful information on dragon scales and how much they protected the dragon from the best sword. Doesn't look good for Beowulf, does it?

Great Site Phyll - clicked on the Advanced site and it says the wurm dragon is the oldest form of the dragon.

I found this book that y'all would be so excited to at least browse through - it was only $12 so I bought a copy - I bet the book is available in the book stores where y'all live. With Tolkien the name on everyone's lips just now, this is another and in it they took his story <The Lord of the Rings as the opportunity to explain all the sources or ring myth inclued not only the Norse myths but the Carolignian and Celtic and Greek and Biblical and Orietal and alchemist - and - and - and - a wounderfully illustrated book that matches some of Tolkiens characters to the similarities in other myth characters - but it is the story of all the rings that is just facinating - it is a Metro Book - Tolkien's Ring by David Day and illustrated by Alan Lee. The book was featured on a display of the other Tolkien books but it looks like a book that could be found in the young adult books.

Evidently the story of rings start long before the Egyptian pyramids were built.

In the German Romance section the Volsunga Saga and the Nibelungenlied are compared and show how Tolkein borrowed from both - but the piece of info that I thought most interesting is: that regardless what happens to a women - the example is given of the proper and chivalric attitude of Queen Driemhild toward Hagen - the knight who had murdered her husband, stole her treasure and decapitated her only child - should have been mercy. Instead she demurs and then cuts off Hagen's head and her behavior is seen as monstrous. It seems the tradition of the time, vengeance is a male prerogative and the slaying of even the most vile knight by a women is unforgivable.

In Siberia, the Buriat people divide smiths into two categories, black smiths and white smiths. Black smiths are like the black magicians who are feared as capable of capturing and destroying people's souls. and the Whie smith is like the shaman - the Siberian culture manifests itself in the national epic of Finland and the traditions and mythos of the Alchemists. The Alchemist's myth is within the Norse myth as the Giant Valarian god, Aul? the Smith, betrays the Fire god also called the Ring god and becomes a Dark Sorcerer.

These ring stories seems to be like a huge ring that ties so many of the myths and cultures together.

Faith, you will have to tell your daughter about Phyll's dragon site. She will love it. Especially the little flying dragon and the one demonstrating its flame-throwing ability. Can you believe somebody went to all this trouble to dissect a dragon?

I am beginning to remember that painting of St. George and the dragon from a long time ago. It was either in an art history class or in a psychology class. There was a lot of discussion about it, which I have forgotten. I suspect it was a psychology class, and there was some explanation for the maiden and the dragon being connected.

Who knew? A collection of dragon figurines, dragon paintings and so many connections between dragons, serpents, forked tongues, fire-snorthing, fire-breathing...and perhaps the fires of hell. (Where does Puff fit in?)

Maryal, I notice that dragon has legs! No wings, but legs! Will you have your daughter examine her little dragons for legs? I'm thinking about lone dragons. Lone dragon vs. lone Beowulf.

ShastaYes, I do too associate the fire-breather with hellfire...with the serpent's red-forked tongue ~ a creature from hell.

Barbara, from your link to St. George and the Dragon... "the dragon venomed the people with his breath." The dragon has the venowm of the serpent, the snake.

So. The king's daughter was a sacrifice to the appease the dragon and save the people. The look on her face could then be one of resignation, rather than boredom? The dragon may have HER on the leash, rather than the other way around?

I have long felt the strong connection between the Beowulf manuscript and Tolkien's Lord of the RIngs...your book strengthens that belief, Barb.

The dragon did not acquire this treasure in combat...the dragon came upon the treasure hidden beside the sea 300 years before. I am drawn to the "rich inheritance of a highborn race in the ancient cache, with nothing to look forward to after a lifetime of battle."

Fae, will you listen to that section on your tape and hear the powerful description of this man's destitution as he realizes that all has come to nothing.

"Pillage and slaughter
have emptied the earth of entire peoples.
And so he mourned as he moved about the world,
deserted and alone, lamenting his unhappiness
day and night, until death's flood
brimmed up in his heart."

I'm seeing such a parallel to Beowulf's own state of mind in this treasure-burier. It isn't worth anything to him in the end.

I have traced through the remainder of the poem for all the kennings and alternate names for the dragon. For me, it takes the ingenuity of the true poet (Heaney) to effectively translate a poem in which there are many kennings.

A kenning, as we remember from our discussion much earlier, is a periphrastic mode of speech that replaces the name of a thing with a more descriptive phrase. For example, whaleÕs path=sea; ring-giver= the lord or prince in charge.

Heaney produces so many names (kennings) for the dragon. He is Òharrower of the darkÓ(2270), Òburning oneÓ (2272), Òscourge of the peopleÓ(2278), Òhoard guardianÓ(2293), Òguardian of the moundÓ(2302), Òhoard watcherÓ (2303) Òvile sky-wingerÓ (2314), and Òwarden of the trove (2414), all before Beowulf ever engages him in battle.

My favorite kenning is Òvile sky-wingerÓ because so much is packed into those three words. This creature is vile and we see him (in the phrase) winging his way through the skies.

There are more kennings to come. I didnÕt want to go beyond our current reading in this post, but I have written them all down for future reference.

IÕve just looked at two other translations and neither has such variety. Thus my conclusion that it takes a poet to know a poet.

~Maryal

P.S. It's Faith's daughter who collects dragons. My daughter just read about them.

The whole poem sounds like a lament-all sorrow- of some kind to me, at least the way it is read on the site I go to. I would like a tape as at the site I have to keep changing the verse or it keeps repeating itself. I think it may be for people who are learning old english. Yes I am sure my daughter has been at that site. She tells me Geocities has many dragon lovers with web pages.fae

Joan,

I just want to make you happy soooo----here is the story of the birth of Puff. Like Beowulf, he has an ancestry. Now, whether 'tis pagan or Christian, I'll leave that up to you.

Puff, the Magic Dragon

And then the story of his ancestor:

The Tale of Custard the Dragon (a realio, trulio, little pet dragon)

It seems that not all of the dragons are "vile sky-walkers" and the tone of Nash's poem is much more fun than the lament of Beowulf, don't you think, Fae?

You are a hoot, Phyll. Wow! Ogden Nash! Who knew? Thanks for the Puff story creation story. I think Lenny was robbed..."co-writer". He wrote the whole thing!

My grand girl just feel asleep and I thought I'd take the few precious minutes before she comes too ...and see what was going on in here...and found your post.
Thought this might take you back
Puff the Magic Dragon

Phyll, the song is sad...sadder to me than the Beowulf lament any day. Hits home...

I'm going to spend the rest of nap-time reading the combat scene between Beowulf and the Dragon. Back in the morning...have a lovely Sunday afternoon everyone!

Yes, the song is sad. But that's what happened to dragons, isn't it? We no longer believed in them so they disappeared. But the children still believe and dragons, magic ones like Puff and cowardly ones like Custard, come to live with them for a little while.

And the last part of Beowulf is sad, as well. Strangely, I found I liked the old Beowulf better than the young B. Perhaps my age gives me a kinship with him, do you think? Anyway, at the last he worried about his people and was glad that they would have the treasure he had died for. But I suspect that he knew that with his death would come the end of the Geat society.

Phyll you made my day for sure. I had that poem of Nash's in a big book of Ogden Nash Poems I gave to one of my kids. It had lots of my favorite Nash poems in it. This one I had forgotten but I did read it to my children when they were pretty big, not babies and they still loved it and read it to each other a lot. We also had records of Puff the Magic Dragon and the whole family hummed it and on camping trips we sang it. Yes Joan I think it is a mournful tune. We learn a lot reading Ancient Literature dont we. hehehefae

I too like the old Beowulf better than the younger one. He has lived a good life (minus heirs apparently, but perhaps he married and his wife predeceased him). He has been a good king, much revered by his people. What better way for him to go than in one final battle?

Has anyone read Tennyson's poem ?lysees? It too is about an old warrior imagining (and apparently undertaking) one last voyage, one final adventure.

I'll look for a link.

~Maryal

Here's Tennyson's poem, "Ulysees":

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/Ulysses.html

~Maryal

If I have ever read Ulysses I had forgotten it. When I was younger and studying literature I didn't care much for Tennyson---too romantic---too flowery---to idealistic, I thought. But now, looking at it from the other end of the Age Tunnel it is so easy for me to associate my feelings with his poetry. These two lines particularly spoke to me:

"And this gray spirit yearning in desire,
To follow knowledge like a sinking star...."

Time has certainly changed my perspective.

Phyll~~Ah yes, how time does change perspective. One of the really fun things about teaching literature is seeing my own perspective change and watching the students respond to poems that I did at their age. Tennyson has some fine poems, but I agree with you on romanticism, general sentimentality, and what I think of as "Victorianism." I don't like it either. However, there are good things to be said about Browning as well, and his poems have held up over time.

~Maryal

Oh yes and I equally like

'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
the sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;

Yesterday I moved through my day here, dividing my time with 7 month old granddaughter and 90 year old relative who is staying with us for a time. And of course, I found myself peeking in here on and off. (Baby loves the computer...well, she loves to bang on the keyboard...which is better than letting her bang on the piano keys, which she also loves to do.)

My DIL was in a hurry packing up the food and diapers and forgot to bring her toys. Spoons and pots were fun for a while...as was my shiney hematite necklace...do you know those things are magnetic? Then I pulled out some of the toys the baby's father enjoyed at that age. Watching her play with them and at the same time seeing my "little boy" amuse himself with these same toys ~the Grandfather wind-up clock he especially liked...what was the tune it was playing...something about ""the grandfather clock that stayed in the hall...tick tock...and the final line..."till the old man died."" Do you know the song I am trying to remember?)

I thought of those words..."Dragons live forever, but not so little boys." And was moved to post in here that I was more moved by this than with Beowulf's lament.

When I came back and read your posts, and the poems...I went back and found the disaster scene in the kitchen where 90 year old stepmum was trying to help by preparing supper. Words from the poems I was reading here ran through my head...

And then I read Wiglaf's words to Beowulf..."Go, dear Beowulf, do everything you said you would when you were still young."

I want to be like Wiglaf ~ and say to her, go girl, do everything you said you would when you were still young." That's not easy for me. I want her to sit down and let me do for her. Two days ago she was out weeding my garden. I felt badly that she was doing that.

But letting go, admitting that the task at hand is beyond me and stepping back to let the younger ones do what I used to excel at ~ this will be my greatest challenge. Is it human nature not to know when that time comes?

Why did Beowulf insist on fighting that dragon himself? Would you? Would I? Introspection time...

Joan~~What a moving post and what a constrast between your 7 mo. old grand girl and your 90 yr old stepmum. I understand completely your wanting to jump in and let her sit and rest. BUT, I will pass on to you words that my mother (already suffering from Parkinson's but still able to function) said to me.

I was visiting my parents in Maine and Mum was struggling with something (opening a jar perhaps) while she made a simple lunch. I got up and went to take whatever it was from her and "help." She said, "Mary, never take a person's work away," and smiled at me. I have held to this teaching, realizing now that I am older that it is important to work as long as you can, to feel the self esteem that comes from ordinary tasks, such as weeding. Good for her!

A word of encouragement for all: I read in the NY Times this morning that Mike Wallace (60 Mintues) turns 84!! this May. Imagine! He is almost exactly 22 years older than I am. Today I will think of myself as a spring chicken.

~Maryal

Mryal at 62 your are only two years older than my daughter. My birthday party for my two daughters went well (april 11/april 14)I had a Boston Creme Pie with Happy Birthday Lynn (60)and Susan(51) written on it. They laughed because my reasoning was Pete, sus husband would eat it all up and I wouldnt have temptation left in the refrigerator.I was cooking a real old fashioned dinner Cornish hens with dressing Gravy and Mashed taters and a huge vegtable salad with broccli florets which they carefully picked out. In the middle of serving I got a back spasm and sat down fast. Girls I said, you will have to finish this up I am done for a little while. They said to Pete, You notice she finished all the cooking before quiting just like always because she loves to cook and hates serving and cleanup. We laughed but Joans stepmother reminded me that all us "old" ones have things we really want to do and will do in spite of pain or tiredness so how generous of you Joan to step back and just let her. In spite of your own "guilt". Now I also like others here identify with the aged, lonesome Beowulf more than the young braggart hero.After my introspection time I will be back with more. fae

A new element appears on line 2525, "fate, overseer of men, decides', Not "God will decide the outcome". Fate is a pagan god, is it not? It seems to me there were three fates in Greek mythology. They are depicted in art with a spinning wheel measuring out the length of man's life. Clotho was one of the ugly ladies. I don't remember her sister's names. Plato also had something to say about these ladies.

This line seems to be one the Christian monk over looked. More, this line is one that contributes to the feeling that we are dealing with a different poet in the old B lines.

Maryal; Thanks for the Tennyson link. I put this part on a plaque some years ago for my desk. I look at it every once in a while, especialy when I need a prod.

"We are not now that strength which in old days

Moved earth and heaven, that which we are ,we are...

One equal temper of heroic hearts

made weak by time and fate, but strong in will

to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

So, at line 2535 we see another change in the way B expresses an outcome of the battle.

"I shall win the gold by my courage, or else mortal combat,

doom of battle, will bear your lord away."

What's different here? There is no reference to God's will or the Fates. The outcome is due strictly to B's power and to no one else.

Why does B choose to fight alone? " as King of the people I shall pursue this fight for the glory of winning." Many old warriors want one last chance to go out in glory. One dies in bed if one is too feeble to move but if one has power left, there is a great need to put it to use, to have the pleasure of success one last time."We'll see who bears the wounds of battle better".

Well the old King's sword failed him, the "iron" blade always failed him says the poet, as his blow was to strong for any blade. And the youth Wiglaf comes to his aid in his first battle and Beowulfs last. Together the slay the dragon. That dragon had sunk his teeth into Beowulds neck so he was poisoned and no chance of recovery. This was a bloody battle and I was more involved in it than in the battles he fought as a youth I presume because I knew the outcome and of course I understand dragons more than Giants called Grendle. fae

I think, like Fae, that this battle is the best told of all. Dragons are more easily understood than Grendel and company, but I think a good deal of the grandeur of this battle lies in the language:

Before long
the fierce contenders clashed again.
The hoard-guard took heart, inhaled and swelled up
and got a new wind; he who had once ruled
was furled in fire and had to face the worst.
No help or backing was to be had then
from his highborn comrades; that hand-picked troop
broke ranks and ran for their lives
to the safety of the wood. But within one heart
sorrow welled up: in a man of worth
the claims of kinship cannot be denied. (2591-2600)

The one who comes forward to aid Beowulf is, of course, our friend Wiglaf who feels very human emotions about kinship and rushes to help the old king. I love the description of the dragon breathing fire on Beowulf and getting a second wind. Later in the battle, Beowulf will get a second wind. Those hand-picked men who run and hide from this awesome dragon are also very human (if not very brave).

So. Are we all in agreement on the the reason old B. is facing the dragon alone? Not so much to prove that he is still strong and capable, but simply to test his courage? Yes, he wants the glory, but is not afraid to dies for it. A win-win situation?

Fae, it's interesting, the reason Beowulf loses, isn't it? First he says, "I would rather not use a weapon to grapple with the dragon" ~(he used his bare hands with Grendel.) But there's something about that molten fire that makes him take his shield and weapon. This seems to be saying that he realizes this is the big one, doesn't it? What is it about fire that causes him to take his shield and sword? You understand unicorns and dragons...can you explain why this combat is different from when he faced Grendel?

What I'm hearing him say is that he trusts in his courage, but that he is leaving everything to fate. Justin, an interesting observation. I too noticed that there was no silent prayer which any Christian soldier would whisper before going into a battle for his life. I didn't think of Fate, as a pagan god whose hands he put himself into. But yes, the Fates were non-Christian deities, weren't they? Do you ever use the word? It was "fate" that we met, my love? When you use it, are you thinking of it as a non-Christian deity? Did Beowulf? Did an early Beowulf scop?

What happened with the sword? We read "it was never his fortune to be helped in combat by the cutting edge of weapons made of iron." As Fae points out, his hand was too strong and he would ruin the blade. Is this why Naegling, his ancient iron-gray sword snapped and let him down in the fight? His strength?

So. His old strength did not fail him, even at his advanced age. Where did it come from? Rage? Both Beowulf and the Dragon went into this fight with adrenalin high! Where did this rage come from? I don't remember rage when fighting Grendel, but there are references to it here...

Maryal, I'm going to go read those lines aloud now. Yes, I understand why those hand-picked warrior lost heart and ran. I'm now wondering why Beowulf selected young, untested Wiglaf to join these seasoned warriors as his back-up? Did he know the others would run?

Joan~~Seems to me that Beowulf picked the very best young warriors that he could find among the "highborn." It does not speak well for the survival of the Geats after their leader's death when the best of the best are cowards and only young Wyglaf shows the necessary courage.

If you knew that you were going to fight a dragon, wouldn't you take a shield? Remember, dragons breathe fire and unshielded, you would be barbequed before you could accomplish your task. Not only does Beowulf take a shield, he has a specially made IRON one because his regular wood shield would be of no use against the fire-breather.

hahahaha....but doesn't iron conduct heat?

Yes, I think B. should have selected the best of the the warriors...but we are told that Wiglaf had never seen battle. Could he have been the best available?

Beowuld would know of the fiery venom spewed forth by a dragon and of course Grendle was big but from all I could tell a man, so fighting him with bare hands was feasible. Not so with dragon that winged-fury , that ground-burner, you must have a shield to get up close enough to him to strike and even then you know your shield may burn leaving you vunerable but at least close enough to chance a blow. I am sure Beowuld knew he was going to die in this battle.He took his sword and shield to at least have a chance.( Unicorns are such gentle creatures they would faint with terror at the sight of a dragon and actually you dont even want to talk about dragons in front of my Unicorn or he will split immediatly.) fae

Joan--Beowulf obviously had potholders to hang onto that shield. True they are not mentioned in the poem, but hey, you're right about iron so he must have.

Faith~~When you say that your unicorn would "split" do you mean that he would crack in half or that he would leave immediately? Remember the use of "split" in the 60s?

I am from the sixties I guess. I meant he would leave the area for some place where people were more polite and did not mention dragons in polite company. fae

Faith~~That's exactly what I thought you meant. That unicorn would be outtahere at the very mention of a dragon!!

Good morning, all. What are your favorite lines from these battle scenes? There are so very many that are good.

At line 2705

"They had killed the enemy, courage quelled his life;
that pair of kinsmen, partners in nobility,
had destroyed the foe. So every man should act,
be at hand when needed;but now, for the king,
this would be the last of his many labors
and triumphs in the world."

Now Beowulf knows he is dead and he prepares to give his last speech which will be his will and testement but first he must look upon his "treasure". So metephorically he is no longer interested in the kill or his bragging rights thereof but he must look on the life he has lead and know what kind of man he has been and if he has been a good king. And he must bequeths his "Treasure" or knowledge and love to Wiglaf. fae

Please tell me about this book.

froggy, that's some tough assignment...I'll try to do it in 25 words or less. Beowulf is an epic poem written over 1000 years ago, which makes it the oldest piece of English Literature in existance. Many of us are reading Seamus Heaney's Whitbred Prize-winning translation.

We are in the home stretch right now, with one more week to go. But please don't go anywhere. We will be deciding on the next Great Book selection in the very near future. To date, we have read and discussed the following:

The Odyssey, Othello, Jude the Obscure, Hard Times, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Portrait of the Artist, Absalom! Absalom!, Canterbury Tales, Animal Farm, The Brothers Karamazov

We'd love to hear from you again, either right here or in the discussion where we will decide on the next selection shortly...you are welcome to post any suggestions you may have in the Great Books Upcoming discussion.

Fae, I felt too that Beowulf knew it was over for him in those lines...and that what followed, his examination of the gold, of the treasures, was really an assessment of his life, an examination of his conscience. Whenever I read something like this I stop and think what I will be saying at the end. And then run out and try to fix something while I still can. I thought it was interesting, the things Beowulf considered important achievements in his life...

"I took what came
cared for and stood by things in my keeping,
never fomented quarrels, never
swore to a lie. All this consoles me,
doomed as I am and sikening for death;
because of my right ways, the Ruler of manking
need never blame me when the breath leaves my body
for murder of kinsman."

"need never blame me when the breath leaves my body
for murder of kinsman"...how many times have we heard reference to the Cain/Abel theme?

Maryal, your question sent me back to reread the battle scene, to look at the language used to evoke the powerful images and emotion. I must confess that I read the words for the action, and images, without considering the poetry that produced the resulting mood and emotion. I think it would have been very different had I listened to the scop recite the words...or listened to Fae's tape!

I did go back and reread (aloud) and this is one battle passage where I felt the poetry that produced my appreciation of the action...

"Unyielding, the lord of his people loomed
by his tall shield, sure of his ground,
while the serpent looped and unleashed itself
Swaddled in flames, it came gliding and flexing
and racing towards its fate."

It is the l's and the f's and s's that produce the looming, looping and unleashing, the gliding and flexing...I can feel a flickering serpent's tongue spitting out at Beowulf...and just know the end is at hand...

Wondering still about the reason Beowulf chose young Wiglaf to join the elite warriors as he prepared to face the Dragon. (The Dragon has no name, does he?) The young man had never seen battle. Perhaps Beowulf had a reason other than his battle experience for choosing him.

Whatever the reason, he came through when the others fled. We learn that Beowulf has no son, so with his dying breath, he chooses Wiglaf as his heir.

"You are the last of us, the only one left
of the Waegmundings. Fate swept us away,
sent my whole brave, highborn clan
to their final doom."

Do you see Wiglaf, standing there alone with the ancient treasure, the "only one left, the last of the Waegmundings?"

D?ja` vu all over again? Isn't this a replay of the scene that took place three hundred years before when the treasure was buried here?

"...long ago, with deliberate care,
some forgotten person had deposited the whole
rich inheritance of a highborn race
in this ancient cache. Death had come
and taken them all in times gone by
and the only one left to tell their tale
the last of their line, counld look forward to nothing
but the same fate for himself: he foresaw that his joy
in the treasure would be brief."

Is this how Wiglaf feels now? What is the message here? I'm off to delve into the relationship between Beowulf and Wiglaf, the "last of the Waegmundings"...

G'day, all!

Evening, Faith, Joan, Phyll, Barbara, Justin, Everyone!! ~~So. I like that too, Joan. SO. Where are you all??

Come out come out wherever you are. We have not buried Beowulf yet, and we certainly haven't praised him enough. Show your fine faces and tell us you are OK and busy (bizzy~that's what we say in this house) gardening or doing taxes or enjoying fine spring days.

~~So. Joan, I have a story for you while we're waiting to take attendance. Last night the coffee pot from the auto-coffee maker broke while I was removing it from the dishwasher. I cannot SEE until I have a cup of coffee in the morning. However, provident and far-seeing person I am, I had bought, some months ago, a backup glass pot for just this eventuality. On the outside of the box it said the pot would fit alllllllll automatic coffeemakers and had TWO, not one but TWO, plastic adjuster thingies to fit on the lid of the pot so that it absolutely guaranteed would work. With any coffeemaker.

Wrong. I set the coffee pot up with what I thought was the appropriate extra thingie, TESTED IT WITH WATER, as directed. Water ran into pot. I figured it was safe to put the water and coffee in for this morning.

Wrong. When I staggered into the kitchen at 5:30 this morning my bare left foot hit something wet. Strange, I thought. Also strange that the kitchen smelled like someone had made at least four pots of coffee. Odd.

Turned on the light~~coffee and grounds EVERYWHERE! Yup, none of the twelve cups of coffee had made it into the pot.

Instead the coffee basket with grounds had filled with water and then filled some more and some more.......well, you get the idea. SO. I didn't have time to do more than clean the counter and throw down a bunch of paper towels, leaving a note for my daughter to say that I would clean up when I got home from school. I salvaged enough coffee for each of us to have a cup by manually manipulating the coffeemaker. This was not easy especially for a person who lacks all coordination until about 10:00 am.

SO. I have just returned from an emergency trip to BestBuy to get a new coffeemaker. (I wonder if I measured my life in coffeemakers how many it would be. More than dogs; that's for sure.)

And now the coffee is all ready to go in the morning. I have programmed the clock. I have set the auto feature for 7:30.

I am good to go.

~Maryal

Oh my Maryal I have had trouble in my life but that coffee spill beats it all. How I would scream if that happened to me. Well long ago when I finally quit work at 70 I quit automatic stuff and simply do it when I need to. Often my electric teakettle is going and whistling away before I have my teeth brushed in the morning for my first cupainstant which I will admit is not exactly coffee but its an ok drink most of the time.

No Joan the Dragon is just Dragon, no name but the poet called him innumerable things including hoard-guard. Did you notice by the way that after they killed him he disappeared? It is a quandry where the defeated dragons go.

I felt that Wiglaf was much like Beowulf as a youth except lacking the braggidaccio. He certainly came through for his King whom he loved. (is my whom right) I can't find any personal relashionship between the King and Wiglaf until the battle. I went back and read for it and again wondered at the word kinship used several times yet his linage seems seperate from Beowulf's. I can see the similarity in the king of 300 years ago and Wiglaf in the view of the treasure they have...fae

Taxes. Taxes.Taxes. Next year I will sic Beowulf on the IRS-our big dragon. I shall return, come Tuesday.

So. I've had MY coffee, without a drop on the floor. Hope you all had such a good start this morning. Am typing from work, so this will be sketchy...

Justin, Tuesday, it's a date. From taxes to Beowulf's funeral. Really looking forward to your comments ~ we seen to have two burials "nailed together."

Fae, I've just read ahead and see answers to what happened to the dragon's corpus...will wait till next week. I'm still trying to understand the dragon. If we don't get into symbolism, and take him on the surface, how does he differ from Beowulf? Both of them are enraged that their treasures/land has been invaded and are out for revenge. Beowulf only went after the dragon when his own home has been destroyed, NOT when the farmlands and property of his subjects felt the dragon's fire.

It's important then that we look at the dragon as a symbol of "evil", as a demon...before we can look at Beowulf as a hero.

I have found quite a bit of information on the relationship between Wiglaf and Beowulf...which is all bound up with the the other uncle/nephew relationships and the enmity among the different tribes. Almost skipped posting all I found ~ UNTIL I started the funeral chapter, and see it comes up again. Now I think it is important enough to sketch in some of this information from my notebook.

In Tolkien's essay found in the Norton paperback of Heaney's translation ~ he writes that Beowulf is not an epic, but rather an heroic-elgiac poem...not an epic in the sense that it is not a chronological account ~ or a historical poem.

The existence of legends connected to the Beowulf legend were known to the earlier audiences and so they are only referred to in the manuscript.

Further historical information is known from other works.

I'll try to get these notes typed up tonight. I think the information is important...and interesting.

Oh, it is believed by many scholars that Beowulf is Wiglaf's maternal uncle. Stay tuned!

I never wait this late to file my taxes. I'm so terrified of IRS that I file them the minute I get all my W-2 forms in. For the last couple of years, they keep changing the forms, and I am more confused than ever. This year, I really couldn't figure out how to complete the forms, but finally I said in desperation, "Oh, well, if I do it wrong, IRS will certainly let me know." They did.

In my Beowulf translation, they call the dragon's cave a barrow. What on earth is a barrow? My dictionary doesn't give a clear defination. Is it a hill with a tunnel in it? Later, Beowulf tells Wiglaf to build him a barrow and bury him in it. How can a grave and a tunnel both be called a barrow?

Hi Shasta~~I have access to the Oxford English Dictionary through work, so I looked up barrow. I'm not sure what the word means in reference to the dragon's home, but the BARROW that Beowulf wants built for him is this kind:

barrow, n

A mountain, mount, hill, or hillock. (Applied, as the date becomes later, to lower eminences.)

c885 K. (r)LFRED Oros. I. i. ?12 a beor as e mon h3⁄4t Alpis. c1000 Ags. Gosp. Luke iii. 5 (r)lc munt and beorh by eny erod. c1150 in Wright Voc. 92 Hul uel beoruh. 1205 LAY. 12311 Vnder ane berh e. Ibid. 20854 Segges vnder beor en [1250 borewe] mid hornen, mid hunden. 1340 Gaw. & Gr. Knt. 2172 A bal ber , bi a bonke. 1393 LANGL. P. Pl. C. VIII. 227 Thenne shalt ou blenche at a bergh [v.r. berwe, borw, bor , borgh], ber-no-fals-wytnesse. 1578 LYTE Dodoens 36 Sterrewurte groweth vpon small hillockes, barrowes, or knappes. 1662 FULLER Worthies I. 212 Planted on a little Barrough within Randome-shot of the Enemy. (OED)

Good question, Shasta! Maryal, I'm trying to imagine this "barrow" ...and come up with two images. One is a sort of crypt, with air space around the corpse and whatever else is buried with him. The other is a mound of dirt ...sort of a burial plot, but the mound is above ground level. Is it a burial plot or a crypt?

ps I've wanted an OED forever...told Bruce that on my last birthday and he gave me a dictionary...which was no better than my American Heritage in my estimation, so I took it back. DOn't tell him...

The following is culled from my notes in an attempt to understand the relationships presented to us in snatches throughout the poem. What made me decide to do this was curiousity about Beowulf and Wiglaf's relationship. Why did Beowulf make Wiglaf his heir?

The mother's-brother/sister's son bond is one that we have seen before in the poem. I'm thinking specifically of the Finn story when the mother's son was burned on the same funeral pyre with his uncle..on his father's side.

We know that daughters (sometimes we are not even given their names) were married off to neighboring families to settle grievances. It was then up to these daughters to make peace.

Now, we come to the last segment of the poem, and we find the fragile peace with all the Geats' neighbors about to collapse. The same names we have met so often appear again as if to summarize the alliances. So ...here's a chart of sorts with the relationships spelled out. Watch the daughters! King Hrothgar, the Dane, has a sister (nameless) who is given in marrieage to Onela, (Swede). So we have a Dane/Swede alliance from the start.

SWEDES:
King Ongentheow has an two sons, Othere, who is supposed to succeed him and younger brother Onela. Othere has two sons, who should then succeed him on the Swedish throne ~ Eanmund and Eadgil ~ but keep an eye on Uncle Onela

DANES:
Hrothgar, son of Halfdane is Danish king, (his sister has married Onela, the Swede).

Hrothgar has two sons to succeed him, Hrethric & Hrothmund (Watch Swedish Uncle Onela

THE GEATS: King Hrethel has three sons, and a daughter (nameless), who will marry Ecgtheow, of the Waegmundings ~Beowulf's parents. (Wiglaf, son of , a Swede, Weohstan, is also a Waegmunding ~on his mother's side, a nephew of Beowulf, by other accounts.

Now we are ready for the action...it is quite involved, but we see how fragile are the alliances forged by the marriages. You be the judge. How effective are the peace-weavers?

1. Geat King Hrethel dies...Swedish brothers Ohthere and Onela, sons of Ongentheow, invade Geatland and inflict casualties.

2. The Geats retaliate...invade Sweden and capture Swedish King Ongentheow's queen...but Ongentheow rescues her and kills Geat King's son Haethcyn. His brother, Hygelac arrives with reinforcements, Swedish king, Ongentheow is killed and the Swedes are routed...Hygelac is now king of the Geats. Hygelac will be killed after an attack upon Gaul.

(In Gaul, Clovis's four sons inherited his kingom and divided it into 4 parts. Hygelac attacked Gaul and took captives...and spoils One of Clovis' four sons sent one of his sons to restore the spoils...and killed Hygelac, who is succeeded by his young son, Heardred, after Beowulf had turned down the widowed queen Hygd who offered him the crown.)

3. So. The Swedish king is dead, his older son, Othere is missing, so younger, Onela (married to Danish sister of Hrothgar), is now king. He exiles his brother's two sons, Eanmund and Eadgils...to Geatland, where Hygelac's son, now KIng Heardred takes them in. (WHY?). Swedish king, Onela invades Geatland and kills Geat King, Heardred...and his retainer, Weohstan, Wiglaf's father, kills young Eanmund. Beowulf becomes Geat king.

4. Eadgils, the Swedish exilee, with Beowulf's encouragement, invades his homeland and kills his Uncle Onela.

5. It is widely assumed that the Swedes will attack the Geats when they hear Beowulf is dead.

Oh dear, have I only confused you more? I'll tell you what. This exercise has set the relationships firmly into my brain. If you have a question, just ask! The only one who still puzzles me is Wiglaf's father...Weohstan.
"Weohstan had slain his Onela's nephew, Eanmund, and given his battle gear as war booty to Onela. Onela was Eanmund's uncle and he subsequently gave Weohstan the sword, which was from a race of giants, to give to his son, Wiglaf. The fact that he has killed his brother's son does not deter Weohstan from taking his victims armor. This slaughter of kinsman contributes to the sense of harshness and doom in the poem. There seems to be no end to the retributions among tribes and a deep sense of foreboding overshadows all of the boasts of heroism and kinship."

Are you all enjoying a sunny Sunday?

Joan~~you are amazing! I followed, for the most part the king's sister's brother pattern and will now, like a good scholar, go back and read what you wrote again. And then I'll read it again later. It is clear to me that with Beowulf dead, the Geats are in serious trouble. It seems that at the time whenever a king died, especially if his sons were still young, an uncle came along to control the kingdom until the oldest son grew up. But when that happened, the uncle was firmly entrenched and didn't give over the kingdom.

Poor Wiglaf; I see hard times ahead for him.

Joan you gave a wonderful history lesson there. I sure could not follow all that in the poem itself. Thank you. Of course it is still floating around in parts so like Maryal I will go back to that post again. and maybe again. At least I know Wiglif is a nephew so a blood relative of Beowulf. I was confused about their "Kinship" . It seems that because Wiglif's father killed the Eanmund that is why Beoulf became the Geat King. The last several days your posts have been exellent explanations of some stuff that was rattling around in my head. Now I think I can resolve some of my feelings regarding this poem. Also I have been reading some more of the essays in the book. Faith

Oh, yesssssssss, Maryal...it is still confusing when I look at what I wrote, but there's enough there to conclude that many of the truces and alliances will fall apart at Beowulf's death///

And my friend, Fae, (did you get my "poem"?) ...Wiglaf's father, Weohstan, was a thane of the Swede, Onela...and DID kill Onela's own nephew,Eanmund, for which ONELA rewarded Weohstan ...with Eanmund's ancient sword. Weohstan bequeathed this sword to his son Wiglaf. Wiglaf is said to have used the ancient sword given to him by his father ... to fight the dragon. I don't know why this convoluted story appeals to me. At least it typifies the many ironies within this embattled society.

Today we begin the funeral preparations. I'd like to talk about Beowulf's last wishes regarding his own burial. It reminds me of some in my own family, and how they were unfortunately disregarded by those making the last arrangements.

Yes Joan I got the answer poem to do you believe in dragons and am delighted. I thought I replyed. Well...will. You bring up something that concerned me. Beowulf was so pleased as he lay dying that he had the treasure to leave to his people, this ring- giver was so happy in that abundance. Then later they bury it with him. Hey that is not fair. Well I need to read and examine the funeral scene more. Hey Justin, Heaney is at it again calling Beowulf's warriors battle- dodgers and tail-turners and finally plain cowards. Faith

Joan, do you suppose all that history you extracted from the poem is really historical? Did any of these kings really live? Or are they just part of the story?

Shasta...I'd like to know if there were ever really giants too! We all accept the fact that huge animals once roamed the earth...and all those Biblical references to giants. Not supported by evidence, no preserved bones anywhere to test and measure.

There is no hard evidence that Beowulf existed. But that's arguable. Some scholars say there is. Others say he is a composite of German fairy tale heros. His uncle Hygelac, the Geat king, yes. Hygelac's son, Heardred, yes.

Uncle Hygelac went to battle with one of Clovis's grandsons, the Merovingian...and these are all historical figures. This was the battle of Ravenswood in 510 c.e.

Hrothgar, the Danish king, yes. His brother-in-law, Onela, the Swede, yes. Onela's father, Ongentheow, yes.

So. There's certainly enough to be of interest to historians!

But the Beowulf scop took the historical context and infused it with the fantastic, and we have found, the moral elements.

This site is a good one because it doesn't get too deep for us, laymen!

Historical Context of Beowulf

Fae ~It was Wiglif's father, Weohstan, a Swede himself, who killed the Swedish king Onela's nephew, Eanmund. Onela rewarded him, but when Onela died, his other nephew, Eadgils becomes the Swedish king.

While Beowulf was king, Eadgils rememberd that the Geats had given refuge to his Eanmund and to himself, when his once had them exiled. So, there is relative peace between the Swedes and the Geats. But after Beowulf? Wiglaf's father killed Eadgil's brother! Can there be peace between the Swedes and Wiglaf now? It doesn't look good.

Beowulf's death will not bring peace to his people. The treasure will not bring prosperity...as you noted, the treasure will be buried with Beowulf. So. Was Beowulf's victory over the dragon in vain? Is there cause for celebration as there was after Grendel and his mother were overcome?

It doesn't look like there is any cause for anything but lamentations at Beowulfs death. Sure joy and gratitude that the Dragon is dead but now Wiglaf in line 2910 is sitting wake for his king and I don'tknow if he said, or the scope is saying, "Now war is looming
over our nation, soon it will be known
to Franks and Frisians, far and wide,
that the King is gone.
and the story goes on in another flashback. I did not understand it very well but after reading your post it is taking shape for me Joan.

I loved the speech Wiglaf gave to the remmenants of the thanes who came dragging back to check out the dead King and the Dragon. He sure didnt hold back and seemed to suggest that they go live in shame at the same time he was telling them of the inevitable war that was coming.(boy my tenses get all mixed up!)

And I am glad they buried the Dragon at sea.At least we know where he is. fae

Faith~~Thanks so much for your remark about the dragon, that they buried him at sea and that thus we know where he is! You have a wonderful sense of humor.

I think the tone and mood of this poem, for all its derring-do and adventure, is dark dark dark. How many references are there to death and dying, to one people temporarily defeating another only to have some sort of internecine strife break out. It seems to me that the whole world of Beowulf was very delicately balanced. Beowulf was lucky to live to be an old man, I think. So many younger ones perished.

I think of the women in the poem, those given in marriage to seal a treaty, those who lost brothers, sons, husbands, kinsmen in this neverending war with short outbreaks of peace. In addition to being "peace-weavers," the women in Beowulf must have spent a good deal of time grieving for those lost loved ones.

Maryal

I knew you'd be happy to know what happened to that dragon carcass, Fae . I found this scene both moving and puzzling ~

"Wiglaf sits at Beowulf's side...the living warrior watching the dead, keeping weary vigil, holding a wake for the loved and the loathed."

Both Beowulf and the dragon lay dead... facing one another. Both lost their lives in the fight. What was the point? What did Beowulf really gain...besides glory? I can't help but compare this fight with the Grendel fight ~ motive and outcome. There seems to be a message about this victory. It escapes me though. Beowulf is supposed to be a hero, will be eulogized as such, but I find myself questioning his motives and his judgement. True he has rid the world of this demon, but he didn't respond to the threat to his people until his own home was burned. It sounded more like revenge. And the desire for the treasure.

It appears that the dragon has been burned? How and when would that have happened?

"The fire-dragon
was scaresomely burned, scorched all colors
from head to tail...
...He had shimmered forth
on the night air once, then winged back
down to his den"

Why is he flying? He has wings now? How did he get burned? So they pitched him off a cliff and out to sea he goes. I would like to have seen his head removed first. More on that later. I've been reading about the pagan buriel rites...the funeral pyre; this goes back to ancient times. Thought this was interesting:

" The site at Alwalton is not just the story of cremation and burial, or even of the amazing trade networks of these early settlers. It shows the changes that happened over less than 100 years, from the first generation Anglian settlers who brought with them from their Germanic homeland the rite of cremation to their adoption, within a few generations, of the 'native' rite of burial. It was only for a few years that the funeral pyres burned as the souls of the departed rose to the next world in smoke and flame." Dark Age Treasures

It almost appears that Beowulf has two different funeral rites, the pyre cremation and the burial, doesn't it?

Maryal, I agree...life for these queens in particular, was a hardship. It didn't stop with them, they had to watch their children become the enemy of their own people.

It was interesting to me that the only mourner described in detail among the mourners was the Geat woman, who "sang out in grief...unburdened herself of her worst fears, a wild litany of nightmare and lament."

This page in the manuscript is severely damaged...but there are a number of scholars who are certain that this woman is Hygd, Beowulf's widow!

Joan, that site you provided about the historical aspects of Beowulf was very interesting. I thought there must be some historical basis for all the kings and queens, or there wouldn't have been so much detail about them. I think the following comment is interesting:

"Beowulf may have been composed as a way of telling East Anglians something of their semi-historical, semi-legendary Scandinavian ancestors."

I was also interested in the folk tales that were similar to the Grendel story.

You asked how the dragon came to be burned. I understood this to mean that he was scorched by his own fire. If you play with fire, you get burned.

Shasta, the dragon played with fire and got burned. I like that. He is charred and scorched by his own confounded flame. Wiglaf has him thrown off the cliff and into the sea. That concerned me. I wanted his head cut off or something. Wiglaf tried to revive Beowulf with water, so I feared that the D. might revive in the sea. Nah, he's gone. It's over. A watery gravy. Forgotten.

Beowulf's grave...with his dying breath he is giving instrucetions for his burial site"...a barrow on a headland on the coast. It will loom on the horizon and be a reminder among my people...a mound on a headland high and imposing, a marker that sailors could see from afar" Our hero is more concerned about being remembered on earth than about what lies ahead of him in the next world, doesn't he? No prayer, no cry of remorse as his soul leaves his body... A Christian death? Is there to be a Christian burial?

Which brings us back to Shasta's question, "what is a barrow? Is it a mound over a tomb?

Here are two links to the Sutton Hoo discovery of burial mounds in 1939...tombs that might have been similar to Beowulf's barrow. There may be clues as to the sort of burial Beowulf was given...

The Grandest Anglo-Saxon burial of all

Seamus Heaney at the opening of the Sutton Hoo Exhibit at the British Museum

Do you sense that Beowulf was given a Christian burial?

I like Shasta's idea as well. Surely, that bad old dragon was hoist on his own petard, scorched by his own flame, blown up with his own bomb. The image I get is of some kind of explosion that occurs as a result of his wounds. It's really hard to imagine the death of a dragon~~at least for me.

Beowulf, as Joan points out, does not seem at all concerned with his immortal soul at the end of his life. Instead, he wishes to be remembered by his people. The idea of the huge barrow is a good one since it will be visible from a great distance and will become a landmark.

No, Maryal, I don't see even a whisper of a Christian death. The burial itself has all the earmarks of a pagan ritual too. Where is the Christian scop who is supposed to have Christianized this pagan epic? If, as we have come to suspect, one or more Christian scribes appended the poem, how did they miss this? Are there two different burials described here, or just one?

Beowulf did say, "The ruler of mankind need never blame me when the breath leaves my body for murder of kinsmen." That statement might indicate that B. knows judgement day is at hand. But what of the funeral rite itself?

Beowulf's funeral directive..."Order my troop to construct a barrow...after my pyre has cooled."

Thefuneral pyre is definitely a pagan rite, contrary to Christian teaching at the time. In fact, cremation has long been frowned upon by the church... When did this attitude change, do you know?

I'm wondering what is left to bury after a funeral pyre.

"On a height they kindled the hugest of all
funeral pyres;
...and flames wrought havoc in the hot bone-house,
burning it to the core."

Ten days later another public burial rite ...Some say this seems to be burial description tacked on to the earlier version as if the pyre ceremony had never taken place. What do you think?

I think that when the first pyre had cooled the bones of Beowulf and teeth etc. which are left after a wood funeral pyre, were gathered together and held as they made a formal funeral pyre on the headland and cast what was left on top of the magnificent treasure and burned it all again. Then when it cooled a barrow(hill of dirt mounded up over the article's buried there. I read it again and again and this is what I came to believe. I find no indication that the woman was his wife though it well could have been. The scope does not treat women as very important so to neglect giving her a Widows Status is not unbelievable at all. faith

I was reading about those ship burials at Sutton Hoo. I've always thought a ship burial was the ultimate in human folly. If you want to bury somebody in a ship, why not sink the ship in the ocean, where ships belong? To drag a big ship up a hill and bury it in a huge hole seems so pointless.

I suppose these people, like the Egyptians, buried valuable objects with the deceased because they thought he would need them in the next world. But in Beowulf, all these treasures are to be burnt up. What a waste! Of course, nobody is going to need them in the next world, but at least burying them left them intact for future generations to study.

Shasta, I wondered about using the ships for the burials too! The first time I heard of the Sutton Hoo discovery, there was mention of the resemblance of this burial ship to that described in Beowulf when the Danish Shield died. I assumed the boats mentioned were referring to sea burials. But the Sutton Hoo mounds, as you pointed out, had at their base, their foundations, the boats dragged up the hill. Naybe they DID make good containers for the remains and the treasures, but why didn't they simply build a structure, just like the boat structure...at the burial site?

I was so confused at reading this, that I went back to the opening pages of Beowulf to be certain that Shield's remains were sent to sea....or whether he was buried in a boat ON Land.

"A ring-whirled prow rode in the harbor
...far-fetched treasures
were piled upon him
...it would travel far
on out into the ocean's way
...And they set a gold standard up
high above his head and let him drift
...No man can tell,
...No weathered veteran knows for certain who salvaged that load."

Well, it's clear that Shield was set adrift on the ocean, but something else catches my attention. The treasure, the gold standard...doesn't this resemble the trove the dragon had been guarding for three hundred years? Could this be that same treasure? Who can do the math?

Faith, from what I read, the Geat woman was old, (her hair bound up was how the elderly women wore their hair) and she was also important, because only queens and royalty were ever included in the literature of this sort. It is said that Hygd offered her entire kingdom to Beowulf when Hygelac died and she did not want her son to become king. Beowulf refused, but when Heardred died, the same deal would have been offered to Beowulf...the kingdom included the widow. This would explain why Beowulf had no children, as Hgyd would have been past child-bearing age.

... I'm confused at the second funeral service, . It is said to have taken place 10 days after the funeral pyre flames had "burned his body (kenning=bone house) to the core." At the first pyre, they included helmets, war-shields, armour.

Ten days later, the barrow wss contructed (no mention of the boat), the treasure, torques, rings and jewels ~ "the ancestral treasure" ~ all buried "under gravel" ...

Twelve warriors rode around the tomb, sang dirges, mourned, extolled his heroic nature...gave thanks for his greatness...

This sounds like a different sort of funeral to me. The funeral pyre...Fay, where do you find Beowulf being set aflame the second time?

Off to search for more information about those Sutton Hoo ships...do you suppose they were symbolic, reflecting sea burials in the past?

Go to line 3135 and read 'The coilded gold was laid on the cart in great abundance and their grey haired leader the prince on his bier." .All this was moved to the headland where they built and lit the pyre and it"wrought havoc with the bone-house", then the people constructed the mound(barrow) which took ten days to get ready and all that was left from the fire was buried in the barrow (not burned again if I said so before I apologize). This is the final memorial to Beowulf. There actually was not any funeral fire before they got to the headland if you read carefully. Faith

I'd like to personally offer my gratitude to Joan P who has gone way beyond the call of duty in our study of this wonderful old poem. Due to unexpected problems in my life, I have not been here as much as I would have liked to, but Joan went right ahead, providing outside materials, stimulating questions, and excellent commentary, not to mention being careful to respond to every one of us and our comments.

Thank you so much, JOAN!!!!!!

~Maryal

I agree Maryal that Joan has excelled at helping me understand this poem which I was afraid of, the first time I looked at it. Because both you and she treated every one of my posts seriously and helped me with viewpoints I had missed I kept on reading and really began to understand the poem as it was written by the English scope (s) and I read a great many of the criticisms in the Norton Edition which helped tremendously.

A Eulogy to Beowulf: Beowulf, son of Ecgtheow, was raised in Greatland by his Uncle Hygylac to be awarrior.

As a youth he was a champion swimmer and had a contest with Brecka in which they stayed out to sea for many days, finally Beowulf after killing sea monsters, out stayed and outswam Becka and won the contest.He was Hygylac's thane and in his day the mightest and most powerful man alive.

Beowulf saved Herot for the Shieldlings by killing Grendle the monster, and then he had to kill also Grendle's mother those evil doer's. He returned home covered with glory but with little treasure to show and truth to tell the gains of war meant less to him than the glory and the satisfaction of saving a people. He continued to protect his people and finally became the King. He stood forsquare for good and protecting his kingdom.

In his old age he again was called upon to protect his land and he called out the Dragon who had been bedeviling his land. With the help of his young kinsman Wieglaf he did manage to slay the dragon and free the buried treasure of 300 years ago. Still the dragon bite on his neck did kill the King.

He is memorialized in song and will be remembered forever. Whenever the people gather the poets sing of the great and glorious deeds of our lost King Beowulf.

The King left no children but bequeathed all he had and his kingdom in his last breath to his thane Wiglaf.

I can only repeat what the songs say regarding Beowulf.. Of all the Kings upon earth, they say, he was the man most fair-minded, most gracious, kindest to his people, and keenest to win fame.

EDIT: Fae, I just posted this from work and see your post above. Will read it closely when I get home this evening...

I have a note in my Heaney Norton edition, , which says that the "bone-house" on which havoc was wrought is a kenning for Beouwulf's own body, Fae. I love those kennings! So. Beowulf's bone-house was " burned to the core" first and then taken to the barrow. If burned to the core, it is difficult to say what remained. I wonder if the new DNA technology can do anything with the ashes found in the Sutton Hoo discovery?

My dear friend and partner in these Great Books adventures, I always knew you were there and look forward to the next time. For me, it was an act of love, ...obsession with the past. Which reminds me, I brought back a few little momentos from the British Library...first five to email me with home address will get one...and I promise you won't be added to a junk mail list! I'm serious, I brought these across the Atlantic for you all.

I am putting Beowulf back on the shelf ...marked-up and dog-earred, with some unresolved feelings of what the scop is telling us of Beowulf's heroism, his sacrifice...

Will you share your reactions to Wiglaf's observation:
" Often when one man follows his own will, many are hurt."

Do you understand this to be a criticism of Beowulf?