Bonesetter's Daughter, The ~ Amy Tan ~ 8/02 ~ Book Club Online


Bookcover for Bonesetter's Daughter




Set in contemporary San Francisco and in a Chinese village where Peking Man is unearthed, The Bonesetter's Daughter is an excavation of the human spirit: the past, its deepest wounds, its most profound hopes.

This is the story of LuLing Young, who searches for the name of her mother, the daughter of the famous Bonesetter from the Mouth of the Mountain.

The story conjures the pain of broken dreams, the power of myths, and the strength of love that enables us to recover in memory what we have lost in grief. Tan has a master's degree in linguistics from San Jose State University and worked as a language specialist to programs serving children with developmental disabilities.

"Splendid" . . . New York Times Book Review

"A riveting, multi-layered tale" . . . Toronto Globe.

Discussion Leader: Lorrie


Ginny
March 19, 2002 - 01:36 pm
HI and welcome to what must seem a strange thing to be discussing in March: an August book selection!

But there's a method in our madness. We are in the midst of our Fiction Reader's Series, and we sent out a ballot to everybody on the Book Bytes mailing list.

(If you did not get a ballot, email me and we'll put you on asap!)

When the winners were announced, Bonesetter came in third, but it was a very respectable third with more than enough interested people to make up a quorum, so we've adopted it for the August Book Club Online and place it here hoping that you can find it in time to read it or plan to discuss it with us?

If you think you would like to read this book with us, please sign in below, it will be August before you know it, you'll have plenty of time to get it, and meanwhile you have several worthy and marvelous treats in store with the Iris Murdoch Sea, The Sea for March, Seabiscuit, Any Small Thing Can Save You for April, Painted House for May and a wonderful entire Steinbeck Series in honor of the 100th, I think, anniversary of his death.

We hope you will enjoy this slate of great books coming, please click on the words Books & Literature at the top of the page and view them all and post here if you are interested at all in participating in Bonesetter's Daughter in August.

We'd love to have you,

ginny

MegR
March 20, 2002 - 05:26 pm
Oh, ubiquitous Ginny!

You're just everywhere here on SN! Sign me up for Amy Tan in August - whether I'm in or out of town then (plans not settled). Have also read this one too and will enjoy revisiting it again.

What's with this Steinbeck thing?!!!! What piece(s) will be read - all of them? That could go on FOREVER!! Poor man has also NOT been dead for 100 years! He'd have had to die in 1902 for this to be the centennial year of his death! Wasn't he around for & writin' about the Okies during the Great Depression!!! (I know, I know - the head works faster than the hand! snortin & chortling!) See ya later - back to cleaning closets & getting rid of 20 years worth of junk & things that no longer fit!

Meg

Ginny
March 20, 2002 - 05:52 pm
MEG!! I do seem to be all over don't I? Hopefully it's a mirage! hahahahaha

Super, you're signed and bound, trip or not, did you see that the Library of Congress has requested from Congress that the National Book Festival be held on September 21? IF it passes, IF Congress allows it on the Capitol Grounds, Everybody tentatively pencil in your calendars from the 18th-22nd Septermber 2002 and hold your breath!

Get no reservations, but IF Congress approves the National Book Festival on Sepbember 21, the Books and Lit Third Annual Bookfest will convene there, stay tuned!~


Steinbeck, turns out it's the 100th anniversary of his birth and it's a big deal all over the world!

Check this out:

Steinbeck Centennial: 100th Anniversary of Steinbeck's Birth February 27, 2002. ...

I knew it was the 100th anniverary of something!

ANYWAY, people all over the country are doing Steinbeck and we will too! Not sure yet on the first choice or what might follow, stay tuned!!

Thank you for clarifying that, now we all know more!

ginny

Catbird2
March 21, 2002 - 06:16 pm
sign me on for Amy Tan in August. I have not read this one, but everything else she has done is super.

Ginny
March 21, 2002 - 07:09 pm
Catbird! Outstanding and welcome! I've not read this one either, and I'm looking forward to it, so glad to welcome you aboard !

(I kinda like knowing this far in advance what I'll be reading when, this is kind of new with us and I like it)

ginny

betty gregory
March 28, 2002 - 03:43 am
I already have the book and since my reading of it got interrupted a few months ago, I'll be glad to begin again close to Aug. 1st. I've always liked Tan's format.....a contemporary family with sometimes mysterious links to Chinese ancestors, and how that history continues to affect the present. I always learn something about Chinese history, culture......and how Chinese families aren't so very different from "American" families. (You know what I mean.)

Betty

Ginny
March 28, 2002 - 06:57 am
Betty!! Gosh, this is quite the group assembling, wonderful, and very exhilerating to me, something to look forward to, in spades!

So glad you add you to the list!

ginny

Hats
April 6, 2002 - 12:50 pm
Ginny, sign me up. I have never read Amy Tan. I tried reading "The Hundred Secret Senses." I could not understand it. Then, I picked up The Bonesetter's Daughter. I read two chapters and did not want to stop. I did not read further. I want to read with the group.

HATS

Ginny
April 6, 2002 - 12:54 pm
Hats!! YAY! That's wonderful news, you did not like her Hundred Secret Senses but can't put this one down, that's quite an endorsement, I really look forward to this now!

ginny

judywolfs
April 8, 2002 - 10:10 am
I read Bonesetter's Daughter quite a while ago. That book so often and so suddenly pops into my mind ever since I finished it, that I want to read it again. This discussion will be a terrific place to do that.

annafair
May 7, 2002 - 05:05 am
I just recieved an invitation from Book of Month to get 5 books for a dollar with postage and handling charge and another book for 4.99 The Bonesetter's daughter was one and I ordered it so I will be with you in August ...they also said I had no obligation to purchase another book and I wont but if they are going to make me such a great offer I couldnt refuse then I will do so...any way I look forward to reading and being here with you...anna

tabbycat
May 23, 2002 - 07:42 pm
Please count me in on the discussion of The Bonesetter's Daughter. I've been meaning to read it ever since my daughter recommended it to me. I've never been in one of your discussion groups before, so please tell me how it works. Do we read the entire book first? Looking forward to hearing from you.

Ginny
May 24, 2002 - 05:31 am
Welcome, Tabbycat!

What a delight to pause in my last minute packing for my trip Monday and see you here!

We are delighted to learn of your interest and look forward to having you with us in August.

You can do whatever you'd like, we generally prefer to LOOK AT and discuss small sections of the book in order? Sort of a giant brain "Read Along With Mitch" kind of thing, if that makes any sense. So that means we will probably divide it up into 4ths and talk about, look closely at those sections in order?

You can read it in its entirety before or not, as you choose. I generally find it easier to read along with the discussion schedulie, simply because I tend to forget hahahaha the points I want to make this far in advance.

However, again, many people want to have time to get it from the library and so they need to read it ahead. To those people I would say make a note of something that struck YOU so when we get to it you can jump in with your comments?

We are fairly famous for delving into a book deeply and we look forward to hearing your insights on what YOUR take is on this book!

SO glad you're with us,

ginny

Ginny
May 24, 2002 - 05:33 am
judywolfs !!

annafair !!


My goodness, what is WRONG with my browser, your posts did not show up new!!

So glad to see you both here, and to learn you, too, will be among us, I look forward with great pleasure to our opening bell August 1!~

ginny

betty gregory
May 24, 2002 - 02:38 pm
Seeing your name makes me smile, Tabbycat. Welcome to the discussion.....we love having new people join in!! I look forward to your purrs and hisses about the book. My cat Sam likes books, too, especially stacks of them to sit upon.

See you August 1st!

Betty

SarahT
May 24, 2002 - 03:49 pm
Me too, Betty - love that Tabbycat. And welcome to Annafair and judywolfs (that's also a neat moniker). I'm really looking forward to this discussion. I saw Amy Tan here in San Francisco last year and SO enjoyed her reading from this book.

Did you know that the participants in SeniorNet Books discussions get together every year at a "Bookfest"? I've never gone, but Ginny threatens to bring it to San Francisco next year - and keeps telling me I have to arrange for Amy Tan to be there!! (Why she thinks I have any "pull" at all is anyone's guess!!)

Faithr
May 26, 2002 - 01:32 pm
I Just finished The Bonesetters Daughter a month or so ago and wanted to discuss it then. Now here is an opportunity coming up. Great Ginny. What can I say but I am glad I found out in time. I guess I am not on This fiction Books series list to get notices. Please add me. I will be here in August if the creek don't rise. Faith

Ginny
May 26, 2002 - 02:55 pm
Faith, Super!! What a joy to look in here the day before my trip and see your name, we shall add it with great pleasure.

We are not sending out at the moment letters (just in the Book Bytes Newsletter) of the Fiction Reader's Series by itself, but Sarah, I think that is an EXCELLENT idea, let's think about that for the future.

Yes indeed, I figure our Sarah can do anything and i hope eveyrbody will want to try to come to Washington DC this year for our annual get together, in person, Everybody Welcome,at the Nationsl Book Festival, it will be a memory never rogtoeen, we guarantee it. Also next year we want to go out West, Young Man, and we hope that you all who live out west may try to join us.

ginny

kiwi lady
June 2, 2002 - 05:41 pm
Add me to the list. I have read it before but will need to refresh my memory I have read all of Amy Tan's works.

Carolyn

Barbara S
June 3, 2002 - 11:00 pm
please add me to the list. I enjoy Amy Tan, and could easily read this one again.

Barbara

goldensun
June 5, 2002 - 10:05 pm
Just got Bonesetter's Daughter, so please count me in.

Barbara S
June 11, 2002 - 09:48 pm
Just collected the book today, so am anxious to get started. Barbara

MaggieG
July 2, 2002 - 05:16 pm
Ginny, please count me in on The Bonesetter's Daughter. I've read it; could not put it down once I began. One moment Tan's characters and their stories have your heart soaring; the next, broken. Look forward to August (of course, that means I am also one year older.)

Ginny
July 3, 2002 - 12:14 pm
kiwi lady!
Barbara S !
highcedar!
MaggieG !

Welcome!



Jeepers, what a sight to see on my return here from my trip to Europe and my first post on the public boards!

OUTSTANDING! What an impressive group assembling, am leaving again Monday for Oklahoma and Texas but will be back the 16th, but do NOT let that fact stop ANY onlooker here from posting happily that you will join in, too, and I call upon those of you here to welcome that person, even tho we're talking about a month away, plenty of time to join in.

By the way, Carolyn, (Kiwi Lady) your cheese scones which you gave the recipe for in Painted House are simply scrumptuous and I myself ate half the pan hahahha See what comes from a good book discussion? Fat!

Come one, come all, and welcome, All!

ginny

Barbara S
July 3, 2002 - 08:29 pm
When do you post the discussion sequence? Can't wait

Barbara

Ginny
July 6, 2002 - 05:04 am
Barbara, will try to get the discussion sequence up sometime about a week before the discussion. Our procedure here will be to discuss the book in parts and I'll try to get those up immediately after my return.

We have found in leading discussions for the last 6 years here that the best discussions are those which have the most input from the participants, so any suggestions any of you have, either for the suggested breaks in the book or any questions, any links to interesteing articles about the author or the book, please bring them forward and we'll incorporate them into the heading and into the fabric of the discussion itself.

I am so glad you are eager to begin, I am, too. I have been reading a good bit about Amy Tan and this book, and I am REALLY looking forward to learning from the insights of the participants in this discussion. There are enough issues in the book to fuel 100 discussions, I hope you all are ready to roll on August 1, and I hope to learn something from all of you.

This is going to be one of our best, I feel it. And if YOU are looking in, you have plenty of time to come on board and you are welcome!

ginny

annafair
July 11, 2002 - 05:46 pm
Had some extra time while waiting on a appointment and started the book...I can tell you I wont be able to stop until I finish it...I keep thinking I read The Joy Luck Club but in any case Amy Tan has my attention with this book and will try not to join in the discussion further than the list will suggest....am not anxious to hurry August but am certainly tempted anna

Stephanie Hochuli
July 14, 2002 - 10:50 am
I am going to join, even though since I have begun the book, I find myself alternating between reading and hurling it against the wall. I guess I cannot fathom this instant obedience stuff. But I will try.

Ginny
July 17, 2002 - 02:37 am
Wow, Stephanie! Hurling it against the WALL? hahahah Super! What fun, our book discussions are always living things, created by the participants and hopefully containing enough varying points of view that we all learn something, this will be quite interesting, hahahahaha

Wall huh? Love it. I loved your own try at obedience, that was cute. hahahahaah

Pat Westerdale is completing our heading and I'm just punching in the schedule, you'll see it up there soon.

Annafair, your enthusiasm is contagious and I'm tremendously looking forward to this experience, book is underlined and annotated, it's something ELSE, isn't it? What a joy to have you all to discuss it with.

ginny

Mari Lyn
July 17, 2002 - 12:23 pm
I have read the book before and will enjoy rereading it and discussing it with the rest of you.

Ginny
July 17, 2002 - 02:09 pm
Mari Lyn! Welcome, we look forward to hearing your opinions on the many and varied issues in this book.

I myself have a list of things I really want everybody's opinion on, we don't have enough time hahahaah to take each one in turn.

Jeepers the thing is full of symbolism, isn't it? I can't WAIT here!

ginny

goldensun
July 22, 2002 - 10:28 pm
Only my expression for it is "I threw that book across the room!" (in my imagination of course) If the author's style lacks flow or the book feels "inauthentic" it qualifies for the toss!

Now, Stephanie, if you want to give that hurling arm a real workout because of the instant obedience factor, I recommend "Memoirs of a Geisha" by Arthur Golden. Mr. Golden understands his subject. I couldn't put it down- it was that fascinating. It is hard to understand that women and girls could be socialized that way without their questioning or rebelling.

Looking SO FORWARD to the discussion. I finished the book yesterday, and am taking a few notes so as to avoid "spoiler" accidents.

Ginny
July 23, 2002 - 11:18 am
Oh good for you, highcedar, this is a fine time to call everybody's attention to ther brand new heading here, (expertly done by Pat Westerdale!) The schedule is up and our Lorrie will take the helm on August 1 with all of us slavering here in the Peanut Gallery. Lorrie is one of our very best of the best Discussion Leaders, and THIS discussion has SUCCESS written all over it.

Just a note reminding everybdoy eagerly preparing to participate? We look on our book discussions here as a collaboration betwteen readers. We encourage you to voice your own opinions, and discuss the issues others have raised, we hope you will suggest questions, and bring in interesting links, anything you would care to share.

We hope we will have cordially expressed differences of opinion. You have a right to your own opinion and if you want to say Ruth is, in reality, a leprecahun, then we hope you will be good enough to share with us where you found that in the book, or why you think that. We hope you will talk TO each other about the issues, just like highcedar did above, in the book, this is not a class.

And I hope you can tell me before it's over what the heck it's about, hahaha but now I yield (till it's time to start chatting on August 1) the floor to our Lorrie, if YOU are reading this and you're thinking, heck I can read 106 pages by August 1, come on down! It's not too late to join us and we have another exciting thing to mention to you but Lorrie will do that in August.

You can read the entire book 30 times at your own pace, all we ask is that you stick to the information contained in the first 106 pages the first week, and to the schedule announced for the rest of the weeks, we operate here as one giant reading brain (so fun)!

ginny who has her own opinions on sarcophagi and is waiting to pounce on you all with them (did you note the reference?)

MegR
July 23, 2002 - 01:16 pm
Ginny & Lorrie,

Are your page assignments above from hardback or paperback issue? Have lent my hard copy to out-of-state friend & have paperback copy now that runs from pp 1 to 403. Which one did you use?

MegR

PS: Find this new format w/ posters & headlines & centering of lines from side to side very distracting! Much more difficult to find posting #'s. Was this an error or deliberate?

patwest
July 23, 2002 - 02:03 pm
Page numbers are for the paperback, I think.

PS: Find this new format w/ posters & headlines & centering of lines from side to side very distracting! Do you mean in the heading or in the section below where people post?

MegR
July 23, 2002 - 08:40 pm
Pat,

Apologies for foaming at the mouth on this. Centering ABOVE postings doesn't bother me. That area IS a graphic layout. Centering WITHIN postings is annoying to me (and I guess with bulleted directions on how to post a message here too - directly above.) Feel like I'm looking at a layout for a Hallmark card (that has also annoyed me!) instead of a block of text that I want to read for information. This line-centering is fine for graphics layouts, but I find it difficult for the eye to locate the next start line as I'm reading paragraphs. This is my pet peeve. If you're all happy with it, guess I'll have to adjust to a new way of "reading" printed text if I want to stay with this discussion. Does this make any sense?

MegR PS: Does this post look like it's laid out in letter format? Nope!

MaggieG
July 23, 2002 - 08:54 pm
Just want to say that everything is flush left margin in the posting area, except for the green icons at the end. It looks normal to me.

MaggieG

Lorrie
July 23, 2002 - 09:37 pm
Hi, Everybody!! I don't know about the rest of you, but I am really getting excited about reading this book! My copy hasn't arrived yet, but is due any day now, so I will have to read as fast as I can to be able to comverse with all you lovely readers out there.

Some of your posted names are familiar to me, and to those people I say I'm delighted that you are joining in here, and to the newer postees, WELCOME!

MEGR;

In answer to your query, I do believe the questions pertain to the paperback edition. I confess I was given them by Ginny, and she did mention that they were from the paperback version. In the future, I promise I will designate which edition and what page number any future questions have. As to the appearance of the heading, I have an appallingly low understanding of the more technical aspects of our discussions, so I will leave those questions to our capable "techie" experts, Pat, Jane, and Marjorie.

Maybe there's something wrong with my eyesight----from where I am sitting this heading looks just fine, but that could be me.

Lorrie

patwest
July 24, 2002 - 04:52 am
MegR: I have looked at this page on Netscape 6 as well as IE 6 and the there is nothing centered except the green buttons at the bottom (and that is the way the sysop has designed them). If the centering for you continues please write me giving details like Mac or PC, O/S, Browser name and version. Maybe I can help.

Stephanie Hochuli
July 24, 2002 - 05:24 am
Did read the Geisha book and in a very weird way, he made sense on the geisha life. I would guess Amy Tans books all bother me because of the instant obedience built into the culture. I was born a rebel and to this day, tend to fight against anyone or thing that wants me to obey unthinkingly. Besides I dont do guilt.. thank heaven my Mother did not and I dont with my children.. Guilt is such a worthless act

MegR
July 24, 2002 - 06:12 am
Don't know what happened yesterday!?!!!? When I called up this site, every posted message as well as green bulleted directions for posting above -were NOT justified to left margin! Every line of type in both areas was centered!! Go figure? Maybe something flukey was going on up in the stratospheres of webworlds? Don't know what it was - but - all's well and left-margined justified today! See ya on Aug. 1.

MegR

Lorrie
July 24, 2002 - 07:27 am
Hokay, Meg, that's good. One less problem to fret about!

Rebel Stephanie:

That's all right. But when you feel like throwing this book somewhere please let us all know so we can duck. Hahaha

Lorrie

Ginny
July 24, 2002 - 07:46 am
We do have a new format here since Meg has been here (WELCOME BACK MEG!) and it IS different.


For instance, you will notice that I've had to blockquote with brackets that first sentence? If I do that then it will keep my colors and fonts throughout (Pat W has told us this). If I don't do this a change occurs. This is part of the new appearance of the site.

As far as the centering, that often happens? If you come in here and see everything centered, you should report it just like Meg did, it meahs that somebody is either tinkering with the heading and has not closed a tag or is working on the entire B&L page or on the site itself and both those things happened yesterday?

And you may have come in JUST at that moment and you may spot it! It's happened so many times to me that I no longer think I am insane when I see it, but if it lasts then you need to report it, it IS strange.

Yes the page assignments refer to the paperback version, and Pat has already put that in the heading (Pat W did the very spectacuar heading) and Lorrie will indicate in the questions whether hardback or paperback is used.

Stephanie would you believe I'm not SEEING the obedience thing? hahahahaha

We can see why Lorrie is doing us all a favor by taking this!

ginny

Barbara S
July 24, 2002 - 11:38 pm
Can somebody please direct me? In my paperback copy Page 106 is about four pages short of Chapter 6. It ends in a part sentence and I don't think it makes much sense to end there. Are we supposed to read to the end of Chapter 5?? I have the Australian publication which is probably different to the U.S.one.

Barbara

patwest
July 25, 2002 - 05:18 am
Barbara S -- There must be different editions of the paperback. Mine looks like the picture in the heading and Page 106 is the last page of Chapter 4

Lorrie
July 25, 2002 - 04:27 pm
Barbara S:

Who would think there would be different versions of a paperback, yet? Pat is correct, we will first read Chapters 1-4 in the first week, which in most paperback versions ends on page 106.

However, in the future as we go along changing the schedule, we will cite chapter numbers rather than pages so as not to confuse anyone. Will this be okay with you all? It's interesting to not there are so many different versions of this book.

Lorrie

Barbara S
July 25, 2002 - 10:42 pm
Yes, different editions of a book can vary quite a bit, size of print etc. Maybe reading by chapters would be clearer for all of us who have different copies. I will now get on with my reading. grinning. Barbara

Barbara S
July 26, 2002 - 10:25 pm
I checked on my cover and it is entirely different to the one above. My copy was printed in Australia, so the Australian Office apparently didn't buy the American artwork for the cover.

tabbycat
July 29, 2002 - 07:43 pm
I'm just about to finish the book, and am sorry. I don't want it to end! I love it when a book interests me to the point where I can't wait to pick it up at night (the time I do my reading) Stephanie, what about it makes you want to throw it against the wall? Got a bang out of that! Anyway, can't wait for our discussion to begin! It'll be my first, and I'm looking forward to it!

Lorrie
July 29, 2002 - 09:02 pm
TABBYCAT!!!! WELCOME!!

You sound very enthusiastic about the book, which is great! I must confess that my copy only arrived the day before yesterday and I am finding it hard to stay awake long enough to absorb more of the book. Like you, I am engrossed!

It will be lovely to see you on the 1st.

Lorrie

angelknutson
July 31, 2002 - 06:36 am
I will be new to this reading group, but I'm really looking forward to this read. I have heard so much about this book. It is suppose to be very good. I have the hardback copy. Now will I be as confused as some others are, as to where you are in te book, and with the questions for discussion? Hope not. This sure sounds like a good read and a fun group.Leann

Lorrie
July 31, 2002 - 08:29 am
HI, LEANN!

I FEEL LIKE AN OLD FRIEND BECAUSE I USED TO LIVE NOT FAR FROM YOU, AND HAVE SENT YOU A LETTER ABOUT IT.

I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE JOINING US, AND WE WILL BE LOOKING FORWARD TO WHEN WE START UP ON THE 1ST. WELCOME, WELCOME!


Lorrie

Lorrie
July 31, 2002 - 09:11 am
Okay, Everyone!!!

The new heading is up, and I have changed the schedule so that there are no page numbers because we all seem to have different versions of the same book! Hahaha

Well, this is a fine group we have meeting here, and I really look forward to this discussion. It's a good book, isn't it? You must forgive me for not reading the whole thing---I find that I have become a terribly slow reader, so I will just chug along with the rest of you.

I wanted to stress that this is a "group" thing, that you are all involved, not like a "teacher and class' distinction. Which means I appreciate your involvement and you must feel free to ask any leading questions you think are pertinent to the book. Okay? MegR, I know you have a talent for bringing out points that others may miss, for instance.

So let's begin, and strive for a wonderful time!

Lorrie

Hallie Mae
August 1, 2002 - 08:24 am
I saw this discussion noted in Pat W's "Book Bytes". I''m a big fan of Amy Tan, I've read The Bonesetter's Daughter. and enjoyed it tremendously. Stories about the Chinese and Japanese have always fascinated me. Mostly have read stories written by Europeans such as Pearl Buck's books, or James Clavell's Shogun. Amy Tan's books are more fascinating to me because she, although thoroughly American, has all the mystique of her family's ways to draw on. I'll try to find my copy of the book and will enjoy following this discussion.

Hallie Mae

annafair
August 1, 2002 - 09:07 am
After a week or so hiatus from being anywhere on the net I think I am ready to start again.I loved this book and now will have the pleasure of re reading so I will be current and not jump ahead.

I lived on Okinawa for two years and have a Japanese sister in law..The oriental way of looking at things is quite different but interesting and as with all reading you learn something new each time.

Cheers from a very HOT and Humid Virginia...This is really an easy month to get through because I know just around the corner is AUTUMN and my favorite time of the year...anna

Ginny
August 1, 2002 - 09:44 am
Oh boy, Megan (Hallie Mae) and Leann and Annafair, welcome back all THREE of you, so good to see you again.

In answer to the questions in the heading, no I never seemed to know who was speaking, and got the relationships hopelessly mixed up and to this day don't know WHO the Bonesetter's Daughter is? Is it Auntie? Is it Ruth's mother?

I had a great deal of trouble in this first section, trying to decide what, of the million and one images the author throws out, is important that I should focus on?

For instance, I don't believe I have ever seen so many references to speech/ voice/ communication or the lack of it. It's overwhelming when you begin to look for the mentions of it, very subtly inserted in to the writing, and it's strange how many times it crops up?

Ruth deliberately does not speak every August 12th. Now we've heard of that, movie stars like Larry Hagman do it (heck my neighbor in our old neighborhood lost her voice EVERY SUMMER when her husband, a school teacher, stayed home from school)...bless her heart, but what does it MEAN? The child Ruth was able to interpret what "Auntie" whose ability to speak clearly was burned, her mouth was burned, I mean the images in this book of...communication, voice (whose voice IS this book in?) (and the dedication saying that Amy Tan did not find out about her own mother's name till the day she died) are just overwhelming.

Lack of communication or understanding between mother and daughter, husband and wife, not having a voice... heck, Ruth is a ghost writer, communicating for other people what they want to say. On page 69 of one of the paperbacks, at the doctor's office Ruth tries to communicate for her mother to the doctor. (He holds up his hand and silences her). Again silenced. Maybe we ought to look at WHAT silences her, nothing else makes sense.

In Chapter One Amy Tan invents a book, or at least I think she invented a book, The Physics of Human Nature, one of the chapters of which was called "The Doppler Effect of Communication," which is:

There is always a distortion bewteen what a speaker says and what a listener wants it to mean."


And the problem to me is, after all this spelling out of issues of communication, I don't know what the author IS communicating here, hahaahaha, is she saying that people are isolated by their inability to communicate, or understand each other? or ?

I don't know.

Ruth seems to be the translator for everybody else in life yet once a year she does not speak. I'm going to need a lot of help with this, and look forward to your insights, is any of the communication stuff clear to anybody else? Or did you not think that was what was important in this first section?

ginny

judywolfs
August 1, 2002 - 10:31 am
In the very beginning of the book, it appears to me that Precious Auntie is a very good communicator - at least to the child. Without using her voice, Precious Auntie tells wonderfully detailed stories about how she lost her voice. She describes being burned swallowing hot coals, swallowing a shooting star, being a fire eater. Immediately after getting up in the morning, she communicates prayers by burning incense first thing in the morning. Finally, she communicates by writing; in this case a very important name with instructions to never forget it. Later, we find that the making of fine ink is the family's business, which seems to say that in the family's culture, writing must be tremendously important, while maybe speech is not. So, rather like following in Precious Auntie's footsteps, Ruth's mother writes, and Ruth gives up her voice once a year. I'm fascinated by this book.

Stephanie Hochuli
August 1, 2002 - 11:34 am
Oh me.. I guess the thing that struck me right off the bat, was Ruths inability to rule her own life. The first chapter seemed to make her the dogsbody for all in the household, along with someone she is ghostwriting for and her Mother. I keep wanting Ruth to stand up for herself with someone. Her love, his children, someone. On the other hand, the prelude.. Precious Auntie and Doggie were fascinating. They are the reason I stuck with the book at the beginning. Ruth to me was not nearly as interesting as Doggie and Precious Auntie. The non speaking of Ruth seems to me to have been an unconscious rebellion of noone ever listening to what she said..

Lorrie
August 1, 2002 - 04:35 pm
I'm inclined to go along with what Stephanie says. I find myself becoming irritated at what I perceive to be everybody dumping on Ruth, and wishing she would stand up for herself more. There's a completely strained relationship here between Ruth and her mother, and I have a feeling that we will see why in later chapters.

Ginny, I agree. I can't seem to get these relationships straight in my mind. Let's hope that it all clears up as we go along.

I was touched by the way the doctor tried to examine the different memory lapses that Ruth's mother had. This is a painful subject for a lot of us who had someone dear develop Alzheimer's and for that matter, who among us doesn't fear the onset of that dreaded disease? It's easy to see why the mother decided to write down her memories.

Lorrie

Lorrie
August 1, 2002 - 04:53 pm
Anna Fair, Hallie Mae, Stephanie, and JudyWolf, all of you, I welcome to our discussion! This is getting to be a great group!

Lorrie

tabbycat
August 1, 2002 - 07:27 pm
It's been so interesting to read all of your comments. I've read the whole book, because once I started reading it(about two weeks ago) I couldn't put it down. I think it is confusing at first, but once you get into the story, you become more familiar with who's who. LuLing seemed so mean to me. She takes her unhappiness out on her daughter. But then you also feel sorry for her. Is she actually becoming a victim of Alzheimer's? (don't know if that's spelled correctly!)

annafair
August 2, 2002 - 01:34 am
In the beginning it is a bit convoluted but I have that kind of mind and worked it out easily. My Japanese sister in law by the way was very deferential to my mother. At least in the beginning..so I understand the mother and daughter relationship in the story.

Yes in the end I understood who the bonesetter's daughter was but now will have to re read to find it again.

There is always a distortion bewteen what a speaker says and what a listener wants it to mean." Ginny your quote from the book may or may not be a real one but I know at one time my husband and I participated in a thesis for our pastor's friend. It was a questionaire for married couples and the whole point was how they communicate and how they understand what the other person was saying.

I dont remember the exact questions but we were asked to read a question and then decide whether it was true or not and how we interpreted it. We also participated in another questionaire where we were to make a statement about a subject and then we had to repeat the statement prefacing it by saying this is what I think you are saying. NOW that one almost ended in an argument several times. So I see a relationship between what a person says and how the listener percieves what is being said. Sort of hearing what YOU want to hear and not hearing what the other person wants you to hear. Now that ought to be confusing enough.

I need to re read the book and see how my reading compares with everyone else's. from a hot and humid Virginia..anna

Lorrie
August 2, 2002 - 12:13 pm
So far, what a strained relationship between mother and daughter, isn't it? I must admit these first 100 pages are really confusing to me---I'm still trying to sort out the different characters. Let's hope things will clear up further on.

Has anyone figured out yet why Ruth goes silent every year?

Lorrie

BaBi
August 2, 2002 - 12:19 pm
We seem to be agreed in feeling that Ruth is being taken for granted and needs to stand up for herself. However, it is also becoming clear that the way Ruth was raised does not encourage one to "stand up for herself".

Which brings me to a question that I have noted in other Amy Tan books, and elsewhere. It this mother/daughter type of relationship typical of oriental peoples? Besides the Tan books, there is a Vietnamese mother/daughter in the TV show "The Gilmore Girls", who relate in the same manner. I'm referring to the highly emotional, heavily dramatic, overblown, LOUD method of confrontation by the mothers when crossed by their daughters. I don't think it is just LuLing's mind slipping, or any unhappiness. This seems to be her normal approach to child-raising, or at least to daughter-raising. (I think sons are treated differently by their mothers in oriental cultures.)

I hope we have some participants here of Asiatic background, who can give us a clearer idea of whether the picture painted by Amy Tan is typical or not.

As to the question of who the bonesetter's daughter is, Precious Auntie does say that her family name is that of the bonesetter. She must be the daughter. ...Babi

MegR
August 3, 2002 - 07:14 am
Lorrie, BaBi, Ginny, judywolfs, Stephanie H, tabbycat, Leann, Hallie Mae and Annafair:

Well hi! Am out of town and this is first opportunity I've had to get on-line since Monday. Am back at the old homestead visiting w/ family & nieces & nephews & sisters & brothers who have come in to see Mum. We're sweltering here! You'd think NW Pa was in the deep, deep south with the temps & humidity that we've had & are having! Bring back spring or fall! (laughing!)

Have just finished reading postings, copied & pasted some stuff to respond to and will work off-line for a bit to keep this business line opened.

A few initial Q's/ comments:

1. First reading ends with Ruth's Full Moon dinner?

2. re to Q's at top: *We don't know WHY Ruth's mother wrote her story. She (LuLIng or Amy Tan) hasn't told us yet.

*We also haven't been told either about the bonesetter or what that is or about dragon's bones - so why Q them here?

*Relationships - When I read & find that I'm getting confused by who's who - I usually stop, pick up a pen & pad & go back & do notes to keep folks straigt for myself. If you want, I'll type up character lists if that'll help. Want it? Am gonna log off now. Will do list for us & try to resp. to some issues raised. Can work on those off-line.

It's really great to see so many folks here for this book! It should be a wonderful discussion! Later

MegR

Lorrie
August 3, 2002 - 08:02 am
MegR: Welcome, welcome! It's so good to see your name, and that's a marvelous idea about typing up a character list. I'm sure we will all find it very helpful.

As to why Ruth's mother began to write down her "autobiography", I assumed the reason was given on page 13 of one of the paperbacks:

"They were pages written in Chinese, her mother's writing. LuLing had given them to her five or six years before.
"My story, begin little-girl time. I write for myself, but maybe you read, then you see how I grow up, come to this country."

On page 5, (same paperback) Precious Auntie takes a slip of paper from her shoe and shows it to LuLing, and tells her," My family name--the name of all the bonesetters." I think that tells us that Precious Auntie is the bonesetter's daughter, don't you?

As to the other questions, I found it difficult to stay within the schedule on our first start, but I promise that won't happen again. Mea culpa!!

Lorrie

MegR
August 3, 2002 - 08:43 am
Lorrie & the Magic Fingered Genies of SN -

You can color this any way you want or change size of fonts. Would suggest keeping bolds & clusters as is to help find & separate folks in list. If anyone else has found other characters that I've not included - please add them! Would suggest deleting this post if you choose to make this list an item in page header. Does that make sense? Meg

The following is from info provided in first 106 pages of this novel.

CHARACTER LIST/ RELATIONSHIPS

(clustered by generational groups)

Asians

*Famous Bonesetter from the Mouth of the Mountain - Chinese(deceased)

  • * * * *

    *Mother - Chinese; birth mother of Gao Ling & believed to be mother of LuLing; deceased

    *Bao Bomu (Precious Auntie) - Chinese; Bonesetter's daughter; LuLing's nursemaid in Mother's house; calligraphy artist; fire-eater; gross facial burns; the woman described in photo on p. 102 in small pic. in LuLing's wallet (and on cover photo of book - see above); LuLing's birth mother; (deceased)

    *Mr & Mrs. Young - Asian-American grocer & his wife; parents of Edwin & Edmund; (deceased)

  • * * * *

    *Lu Ling Young ("Doggie"/Waipo[grandmother]) - Asian immigrant; assumed daughter of "Mother"; daughter of Bao Bomu; narrator of"Truth"; mother of Ruth; assumed sister of Gao Ling; widow of Edwin Young and Pan Kai Jing (both deceased); talented artist & calligrapher; author of own biography; former teacher's aide

    * Gao Ling Young ( Auntie Gal) - Asian immigrant; Lu Ling's assumed sister; Lu Ling's sister-in-law; wife of dentist Edmund Young; mother of Sally and Billy Young

    *Edwin Young- Asian-American killed in auto accident; husband of LiLing & father of Ruth; older brother of Edmund

    *Edmund Young - Asian- American; husband of Gao Ling & father of Billy & Sally Young; surviving brother of Edwin

  • * * * *

    *Ruth Young - Asian-American; daughter of LuLing & Edwin Young; a ghost writer; live-in gal pal of Art Kamen

    * Billy Young - Asian-American; Ruth's cousin; son of Edmund & GaoLing: brother of Sally; father to 4 kids; husband of Dawn; runs a successful biotech company

    *Sally Young - Asian-American; Ruth's cousin; daughter of Edmun & GaoLing; sister of Billy; mother of 2 sons; wife of violinist George; an aeronautical engineer

    *Dr. Huey - Asian-American; LuLing's physician

    *Paul - Asian-American; Ruth's former live-in boyfriend of 4 years

    ======================================================================================

    Non-Asians

    *Marty & Arlene Kamen - well-off parents of Art Kamen

    *Art Kamen - Ruth's live-in boyfriend; son of Marty & Arlene; ex-husband of Miriam; father of Dory and Sophia; linguist specializing in ASL

    *Miriam ? - Kamen parents' preferred "mate" for Art; Art's ex-wife; current wife of Stephen; mother of Dory and Sophia & Andy and Beauregard (Boomer);

    *Stephen ? - current husband of Miriam; father of Andy & Beauregard (Boomer)

    *Sophia Kamen (Fia) - 15 year old daughter of Miriam & Art

    *Dory Kamen - 13 year old daughter of Miriam & Art

  • * * * * *

    *Ted- Ruth's client & co-writer of Internet Spirituality

    *Agapi Agnos (Doris DeMatteo)- Ruth's client & co-author of Righting the Wronged Child

    *Gideon - Ruth's agent

    *Wendy - Ruth's best & longest friend

    *Joe- Wendy's live-in boyfriend

    *Francine - LuLing's downstair's tenant

    Theresa - Ruth's childhood school friend at time of slide accident

    *Fu-Fu - Ruth's dead cat
  • Lorrie
    August 3, 2002 - 09:01 am
    Marvelous, Meg!! In the interests of brevity, since we Discussion Leaders are often asked to keep the headings a bit shorter, I am urging all you readers to print out this wonderful index of characters that Meg has so generously provided. I know I will be referring to my list often. Thank you so much, Meg!

    Lorrie

    patwest
    August 3, 2002 - 09:35 am
    Meg's List

    MegR
    August 3, 2002 - 10:21 am
    Think that our Ginny, has touched on one of the things that still intrigues me the most as I reread this book - imposed or chosen silence. The lack of a voice or voices. The inability to communicate. This seems to be a major thread or repeated image in this section of the novel. I think you're absolutely righ, Ginny when you say: I don't believe I have ever seen so many references to speech/ voice/ communication or the lack of it. It's overwhelming when you begin to look for the mentions of it, very subtly inserted in to the writing, and it's strange how many times it crops up? There are a number of issues that spin off of this particular theme in this novel! Am only going to focus on the "silencing" thing in this post. Examples:

  • Precious Auntie was physically incapable of speaking because of the horrible disfigurement of the lower half of her face by fire. Precious Auntie was mute, was silent.

  • Ruth chose to remain silent when she was injured on the school playground slide because she relished the attention, gifts and feeling of being important and mattering. She was afraid that being "special" would cease if she opened her mouth.

  • As an adult, Ruth is totally silenced by laryngitis (sp?) every year on Aug. 12th. [ Obviously, there's probably some reason for this, but we as readers don't yet know what this is. Ruth has so accepted this medical silencing that she's planned vacation days for this period of silence. Did anyone else find it unusual that Ruth seems to know in exactly how many hours her voice will return?]

  • LuLing has chosen to be silent about her own family history. (Witness reactions in chapter 4 when LuLing announces that she and Gao are not birth sisters, but sisters-in-law & announces that Precious Auntie is her own birth mother rather than Gao's!)

  • We know that LuLing has written her biography for Ruth, but those pages remain silent because Ruth has not read/translated them.

  • Then there's our Ruth who just won't open her mouth to speak up for herself with almost anyone in her life! [BUT, ironically, as Ginny says, Ruth is a ghost writer, communicating for other people what they want to say. BUT, what our Ruth does by earning her living goes farther than that! She not only provides the words, she also provides appropriate surface editing, organizes her "client's" thoughts and texts, provides clarity and a believable "voice" for all of her co-authors incredibly well!]

  • Ginny also points out that Dr. Huey "silenced" Ruth as she attempted to assist her mother during the physicians interview.

  • The "silenced" voice of the dead Precious Auntie "speaks" to LuLing via Ruth and the sand tray. Doesn't it strike you as unusual that three generations of mother-daughter-granddaughter are afflicted with this malady?

    I'm sure that there are many other examples of "silencing". Can anyone else come up with some others in this section? Yup, think there are a number of other communication elements that come up with this issue, but for some reason I think the "silence"-ing bit is a key here. Anybody else have any ideas? Help! - Meg
  • BaBi
    August 3, 2002 - 11:11 am
    My thanks to Meg for the list, and to Pat for making an easy-to-copy link for us. ...Babi

    Lefty Don
    August 3, 2002 - 02:11 pm
    I enjoyed reading this novel--it was appealing to me on several levels. First, it was an excellent depiction of the mother-daughter relationship between an immigrant mother and her US-born and raised daughter. Their reactions to various situations are colored by their individual histories--thatis, the way they were raised as children and the respective environments in which they lived. Second, the story of LuLing's adventures in China before she came to the US is facinating. A reader cannot help but be amazed at how strong this young woman was in the face of so much adversity. When she was the victim of some horrendous setback, she somehow fought back and eventually prevailed. She was constantly allowing GaoLing to take advantage of her, but she could not seem to deny her "sister" anything. I guess it all came out even when GaoLing helped LuLing to come to America. Third, LuLing's writings gives us avivid picture of the Chinese culture and society in the 1930s and 1940s. By our US standards, it was a very rigid and restrictive culture, where women were treated as second class persons. Ms. Tan writes with unusual clarity and with a remarkable ability to descibe her character's feelings. Also, her descriptions of the scenery in both China and the US are outstanding.

    Hallie Mae
    August 3, 2002 - 04:33 pm
    Thanks MegR and PatW for the character list it definitely will help me keep the characters straight when I re-read this book.

    The strained mother/daughter relationship seems to be a recurring theme in Amy Tan's books. The "Joy Luck Club" was all about 3 very American daughters and their very Chinese mothers.

    Apparently being "silent" is not all that unusual. I believe Maya Angelou, the poet, was silent for a period of time as a child, I've forgotten the particulars of her story.

    Hallie Mae

    Hallie Mae
    August 3, 2002 - 05:35 pm
    I just read the Amy Tan interview. What a dummy I am, it's no wonder I didn't understand the comments. I was thinking of the characters in "The Hundred Secret Senses.". Especially Kwan who "saw dead people." Time to start re-reading "Bonesetter"!

    Hallie Mae

    tabbycat
    August 3, 2002 - 08:06 pm
    This is regarding Meg's statement about Ruth's period of silence every August. I think that it's definitely self-imposed. She knows when it begins and when it ends. I feel that this is her "time-out" and that she enjoys it. It brings her a certain type of power, just as it did when she was a child. I love reading everyone's thoughts on this book. It's my first on-line discussion group, and I haven't been disappointed!

    Lorrie
    August 3, 2002 - 09:27 pm
    HELLO, THERE LEFTY DON! WELCOME TO OUR GROUP! PULL UP A CHAIR AND MAKE YOURSELF COMFORTABLE AS WE DISCUSS THIS WONDERFUL BOOK!

    I started wondering about Ruth's self-imposed times of silence when I read, in the Truth segment, how difficult it was for Precious Auntie to communicate

    "She had no voice, just gasps and wheezes, the snorts of a ragged wind. She told me things with grimaces and groans, dancing eyebrows and darting eyes." and "hand talk, face-talk, and chalk-talk were the languages I grew up with, soundless and strong." Does anyone else see a connection?

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 4, 2002 - 08:26 am
    What a fascinating discussion, so many differing points of view and all valid, this must BE a pretty complex book, to spark so many thoughts.

    First off, I loved this, Judywolfs, "Later, we find that the making of fine ink is the family's business, which seems to say that in the family's culture, writing must be tremendously important, while speech is not."

    Speech, writing, (don't forget the calligraphy) the lack of words, the importance of words (what does Ruth do with her new love? They ask each other which is their favorite WORD? She chose what I would have, onomatopoeia, strangely enough... and then Lefty Don (WELCOME!) reminds us of the culture being portrayed here and I hope he will give us some more thoughts on that, because the anomaly here IS that I just saw a documentary on China and the calligraphy (Judy) in China and was stunned to hear that most Chinese cannot read, at all, and there's a good reason for that: there are ...I don't remember the number but there's NOT just ONE language there are tons of them, and somebody in one region of the country might not know the language of another, so seen in that light, Lorrie, Precious Auntie's communication makes a heck of a lot more sense. She communicated the best way she could, with gestures, writing in sand, etc. The entire book shrieks communication or the lack of it.

    Now Steph and Babi feel Ruth is kinda put upon, ( I don't see it YET!) and I thought Steph hit a home run with this one "The Non speaking of Ruth seems to me to have been an unconscious rebellion of no one ever listening to what she said." I like that one, and you may well be right, we have seen her resentment as she has to sit quietly and see the "author" of the book she wrote get all the attention. Good point!

    Lorrie mentions another thing in the book and that was the mother/ daughter relationship at the doctors and the painful memory lapse examination. Those scenes are almost excruciating for me to read, because at this time in our lives we may well have been on both sides of that question, with a parent or loved one or the subject ourselves, and it's frightening, no matter which side you're on.

    Nor am I sure that the relationship here is ONLY oriental or reflective of that. I feel for everybody caught in the situation, I remember when my mother was in her last days and I could hear the doctor in the next room of the hospital asking that patient what day it was, who was the president, and the next day that patient disappeared, went up to the "7th floor" which was the ward for those somewhat confused. My mother was on a great deal of morphine and I thought boy you come in here with that and move her over my dead body. Well they did come in and asked the day and date and year and President and my mother said, (my brilliant mother who just one minute before had been saying we really need to get Dr. X a wedding present because Dr. X had just gotten married) and so to the question of who was President my mother said well it's not Calvin Coolidge, I can tell you that. Hahahahaha

    I thought just TRY to move her, people. Hahahaha They didn't.

    But ths business of Ruth's mother stiffening up when hugged, I can relate to that too. There is a lot in this book which speaks of a universal pain and a child's inability to be heard and to be understood.

    Maybe because, as the Doppelganger effect stated, and Annafair explained so well, the listener hears one thing while the speaker is speaking out of his own needs and experiences.

    Tabbycat, WELCOME, also, we're so glad you've chosen us for your first discussion, do you feel LuLing is mean or frustrated by her inability to get her way or have her needs met or to be appreciated and honored, or to be understood, or just mean?

    I am not sure if she's a victim of dementia, what do you all think, the pearls? Is that what would lead us to think that? Or the shouting?

    More....

    Ginny
    August 4, 2002 - 08:27 am


    Babi, if Precious Auntie is the Bonesetter's Daughter, what relationship is she to Ruth? What did you make of the statement of LuLing on page 102 of the paperback I have (Guys, let's solidify our paperback numbers, the SARCOPHAGUS thing in my paperback is on page 15 in Chapter One. There's only one reference to it, can we all check our own books and see where it occurs in our book and be able to get near the same page?) More on the sarcophagus tomorrow, that one thing there brought me up with a jolt! Did it you? Or did you just take it as another mystical representation? I don't think it is?

    But Babi, can you straighten me out on this family relationship? "That one right here, she's my mother," .....It was a photograph of her mother's nursemaid, Bao Bomu, Precious Auntie.

    So what's happening here? Has LuLing lost her mind? If Precious Auntie is LuLing's mother and she's the daughter of the Bonesetter than what does that make Ruth?

    By the way, I do want to say the Bonesetter question, although it may be answered later on in the text is quite important here, and here's why?

    When a reader reads a book, everything the author puts in there adds to the reader's experience. This one is full of fog as a fight between the water and fire dragons, bonesetters and dragon's bones, ghosts, all sorts of fantastic figures and images and they cloud, for me, the other issues in the book.

    In other words, my mind is off in dragon land and I'm not able to keep track of what's going on, the REAL relationships in the book are incidental to me, note Steph and Babi say that Ruth is put upon, who the heck knows? I'm off in Bonesetter land with the dragons and nothing, absolutely nothing, is explained, it's mysticism and it's important to recognize, at least to me, that it's happening.

    Tell me again, whose "voice" is this thing in?

    THERE'S our Meg, so glad to see you thank you for that cast of characters, thank you for putting it in the heading, Pat!

    Oh references to speech, words, writing, mouths, silences, communication, oh yeah, almost every page, when you start looking for them, Lorrie's just put another one I missed in her post before mine. To get them all, you'd have to copy the entire book, here are a FEW not mentioned before, and all are quotes:

  • expert on silence (p.28 of my paperback all pages refer to that version, with the black cover)
  • The less Ruth said, the more her mother tried to guess what she meant...(page 79)
  • She thought about making a little sound so small no one would ever hear (page 80)
  • So now you can talk back this way (page 83)
  • Mouth of the Mountain (page 87)
  • Ruth had to sit back silently (page 43)
  • Ruth's mother supplemented her income as a bilingual calligrapher (51)
  • I wish you two would stop taking like spies in Chinese (p. 75)
  • Days of No Talk (p. 2)
  • She can speak English, too (p. 75)
  • By using Chinese words, LuLing could put all kinds of wisdom in Ruth's mind. (P. 76)
  • Ruth's mother depended on Ruth to tell her what people meant to give her what they said from another angle (p. 70)
  • Ruth and her new loves discuss their "favorite word, " (p. 29)
  • She could hardly speak except to sputter the old threat " maybe I die soon." (p. 29)

    It's interesting how and when and WHY both characters lose their voices and note how the author states this period of silence is for Ruth:

  • For the past eight years always on August 12, Ruth Young lost her voice.

    I think Meg asked earlier if this seemed strange this patern in this family, no I think it's a learned response like so many other patterns in families, it means something.

    I just don't know what? I think tabbycat and Stephanie are circling in on the real reasons, I agree that it brings her "power," but how strange? If you were silent here, what POWER would it bring? Er...none?

    Does being silent, the silent treatment work in real life, I wonder? Have you ever tried it and what was the result?

    Megan (Hallie Mae) wasn't the child Maya Angelou wrote about (herself) tramatized? And that's why she was silent? It's been a long time since I've read the Caged Bird but I seem to have a vague memory (and probably totally wrong) about that?

    What do you think the mother's rages seem to mean? Here we need Lefty Don again, is this indicative of a society?

    I recall seeing an interview with a person who had interviewed Osama ben Ladin and he said that if a question were asked, unlike the normal response of the male of that area, quick and loud and assertive, (so that people would not think him stupid) OBL would sit quietly and think a bit, sucking on a toothpick (what a charming spectacle he must have been) but the point is he was different and for that difference, celebrated, in a culture where shouting immediately was considered a mark of intelligence.

    So in China is there shouting a lot? I have no idea, do any of you?

    Do WE have a mental picture in America (or a sneaking respect for) of the "strong silent" type?

    ginny
  • Lorrie
    August 4, 2002 - 09:38 am
    Oh, ginny, what a meaty post that was!! In #78 you mention about the sarcophagus, and one of the meanings I found was "flesh-eating stone used for making coffins." How macabre! Is there some reason Ruth visualized the idea of a coffin as comforting?

    And when LuLing made that statement, didn't that say, in effect, that therefore she was the bonesetter's grandaughter?

    Incidentally, I must have tast for zilch----I thought that pearl necklace sounded lovely! Hahaha

    Lorrie

    BaBi
    August 4, 2002 - 01:18 pm
    Well, Ginny, I would say Precious Auntie is LuLing's mother, but Luling did not know this as a child. This would make Precious Auntie, the Bonesetter's Daughter, Ruth's grandmother.

    I don't think Ruth's annual silence is a deliberate thing, but I too believe she looks forward to it as a time of rest and withdrawal from the demands on her. Something happened 8 years ago that caused her to temporarily lose her voice. The experience must have been a positive one for her, in terms of attention, concessions, freedom from harassment, etc. The recurrences are, I believe, psychosomatic, but entirely genuine. ...Babi

    BaBi
    August 4, 2002 - 01:24 pm
    PS; I located the reference to a sarcophagus. I see nothing mystical about it. Ruth is thinking of how inconvenient and uncomfortable the bathroom it. The tub, instead of being a place where one can soak in comfort and warmth among the bubbles, so to speak, is highly uncomfortable. She compares it to being in a sarcophagus, which brings to my mind the square-sided stone coffers that were used to entomb people in Egypt (way back when). About as far away from comfort, both physically and emotionally, as one could get. ...Babi

    Lefty Don
    August 4, 2002 - 02:54 pm
    My references to page numbers is from the hard bound version (I don't know if these numbers correspond to those in the paperback). Anyhow, her goes: Page 11: "It was now nearly midnight....." This very beautiful description of the fog over San Francisco Bay was particularly poignant for me, bringing back memories of my childhood, having been raised in that area. Page 53: This is a facinating look at Chinese calligraphy--and the significance of each brush stroke. It is evident that writing is not only a way of communicating for the Chinese--it also has elements of art and spiritual implications. Page 91: "GaoLing NOT my sister..." This is the first clue that the reader gets that Ruth's mother may really be Precious Annie's daughter--the photograph is of the Chinese lady shown on the book's jacket (before Annie's accident and disfigurement). Page 133: Ruth at the beach. This is a very good piece of writing--showing Ruth's depression over the direction her life is taking. Pages 148-9: Ruth finds her mother's manuscript and comes to the realization that her mother may not be so crazy (maybe not the victim of Alzheimers). Page 164: Precious Annie talking about her father, The Bonesetter (evidently what they called their "healers"). The 3 kinds of remedies-modern, try-anything, and traditional-is rather humorous, but evidently effective. Page 207: The dramatic scene when LuLing tells Precious Annie that her intended husband is of the family Chang. Chang, the coffin maker, is the man who was responsible for the death of Annie's father. This is a masterful piece of writing--so much pathos expressed by the characters and the situation. Page 239: GaoLing's letter to LuLing--telling of her terrible marriage and her desire to escape. Now, LuLing is no longer jealous of GaoLing--she is grateful that her marriage to the Chnag son never happened. Page 254: A insightful look at the political climate in China at the time. It is evident that the communists had their supporters, but most of the people were uninterested in politics. Page 304:Regarding Ruth's relationship with Art, it appears that LuLing is more perceptive than her daughter. This helps Ruth to look at the situation more objectively. Page 323: Art is beginning to "see" Ruth for the first time. He realizes that he has been taking advantage of Ruth's desire to please him and his children. He now encourages her to be more decisive and strong--to stand up for herself. Page 341: Art and Ruth are really talking TO each other--and not AT each other. They are listening to each other's ideas--an indication that their relationship is on the way to a better outcome. Page 348: Finally, solving the mystery of the name of Ruth's grandmother. More confusion due to the translation of Chinese characters into English. It is a good ending--both satisfying and complete.

    Lorrie
    August 4, 2002 - 03:58 pm
    Dear, dear Lefty Don:

    What a marvelous post that was! And it's easy enough to find the same references even in the paper-back version that you were so good to point out.

    However, I'm not sure you are aware that we are discussing the book on a scheduled basis, and pretty much follow the schedule listed in the heading here. Which means that right now we are talking about the first part of the book, up to Chapter 5, or the end of the Full Moon Festival.

    Please do save all those great comments about things that transpire on future pages---I'm sure we will all want to hear them when we come to that particular part.

    Most of our book discussions are divided. by opinion, into two camps. There are those who prefer to read a book completely, and then discuss it at will, pointing out various parts at random. Then there are those who would rather read the book together, and comment on different chapters as they are read. It's entirely up to each reader how he reads the book, but when we divide it into segments we ask each poster to stay within the scheduled pages.

    I do hope you stay with us, and offer your very thoughtful insights. I have a feeling that your participation is one that we really need.

    Lorrie

    goldensun
    August 4, 2002 - 09:18 pm
    This book is written in the omniscient voice isn't it?

    When I first started the book I had to stumble my way through the part about Precious Auntie and Doggie. I just couldn't seem to get a bead on where it was going. But then the book just "opened up and grabbed me" as the story got going and the relevance became clear.

    I think Luling wrote her memories because (although she would never admit it) she suspected her mind was changing and her past might become lost.

    Although Ruth's voice loss each year is beyond her control, I think it contains and element of will, self-protectiveness, perhaps. Of this, I speak from some experience. In my early twenties I was a long-distance operator for Michigan Bell Telephone and several times in the first year temporarily "lost my voice" on the job. Mostly, I managed to croak my way through my work until it came back, but occasionally had to be relieved from the board for half an hour or so.

    I think this was a psychosomatic reaction to anger I secretly felt about the way we were treated by some of the more arrogant supervisors. Similarly, I believe Ruth is also feeling resentment but doesn't know it yet! She is confused about what she owes to others, what they owe to her. She has not examined her own feelings or talked about them and doesn't seem to realize she has a right to do so. It has to do with the way she has been raised, everything is kept inside.

    I was amazed at the way she went about remembering the day's errands, by counting them out on her fingers and struggling to remember each one. Why didn't she just make a TBD list every morning and consult it? Instead, she used her fingers as Luling had always done.

    Ginny
    August 5, 2002 - 06:30 am


    highcedar, what a wonderful post! I especially loved this:



    Similarly, I believe Ruth is also feeling resentment but doesn't know it yet! She is confused about what she owes to others, what they owe to her. She has not examined her own feelings or talked about them and doesn't seem to realize she has a right to do so. It has to do with the way she has been raised, everything is kept inside.


    But now I'm not entirely sure that the LOSS of Ruth's voice was involuntary in fact, I believe it was done on purpose, I thought I saw something to that effect, what do you all think? Is it involuntary or voluntary?

    And you bring up the counting, which just mesmerized me, I couldn't follow it, I'm with you, why not write out a LIST? I can't understand the numbers!

    She writes everything else!




    Babi, I was so hoping somebody would say that!! How do you all feel about the sarcophagus? Lorrie raises an interesting question, IS there some significance?

    Note that Babi says she thinks that Tan is saying that the claw footed tub would be as uncomfortable as a tomb or coffin? I love this.

    But don't people LOVE to bask in those old iron tubs? They, I understand, are the hottest things on the market today, for some strange reason, lie back and read (!!??!!) in soothing comfort.

    But there's another possible view of a sarcophagus and Lorrie has the definiion right on: flesh eater!?!

    One of my particular quests in traveling so many trimes to Rome had been to find the famous Ludovisi Sarcophagus. I had heard of it but never managed to FIND it until a year ago. You may be surprised at my reaction! Hopefully you'll enjoy reading about this particular strange thing, I can't ever see the word sarcophagus without simultaneously thinking of the Ludovisi, but if you note below, as Babi says, there were many other sarcophagi from many lands:

    Here is the Ludovisi Sarcophagus, in the Palazzo Altemps in Rome, a place very few people, if any, ever visit. The sarcophagus is huge and white and overwhelming, stands in a big room almost all by itself, there are benches in front of it and two very small sarcophagi, if I remember correctly, to the right, but this one sarcophagus takes the entire room and your attention. It's decorated as you see on three sides, the back is plain.

    Here are two of the exquisite details from the very deep carving: The heat of battle and Blowing the horn (note the surreal detail in both)

    This is a rare piece which many have heard of but few actually get to see (it's not on the tourist maps of Rome)...here is the description of the front?

    The front of the sarcophagus shows a battle scene between Roman soldiers and Germans. The Germans have distinctive clothing, beards, and hairstyles that distinguishes them from the cleanshaven Romans. This work has been dated to ca. 250 A.D. The Roman on horseback in the center-top has been identified with Hostilian, son of the emperor Decius, who died in 252 A.D.


    "Sarcophagus," according to The American Heritage(R) Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000 ,


    The word comes to us from Latin and Greek, having been derived in Greek from sarx, "flesh," and phagein, "to eat." The Greek word sarkophagos meant "eating flesh," and in the phrase lithos ("stone") sarkophagos it denoted a limestone that was thought to decompose the flesh of corpses placed in it. Used by itself as a noun the Greek term came to mean "coffin." This Latin word was borrowed into English, first being recorded in 1601 with reference to the flesh-consuming stone and then in 1705 with reference to a stone coffin.


    The Ludovisi Sarcophagus is praeternaturally cold even in the hottest weather, I believe it's marble, but am not sure. The strange thing is that as I stood there and felt its cold presence, I thought how soothing it might be to get IN it (it was about 100 degrees that day in Rome) and was surprised at myself.

    Imagine how it felt to see this on page 15, Chapter One:



    The claw-footed iron tub was as soothing as a sarcophagus and the pedestal sink with its separate spigots dispensed water that was either scalding hot or icy cold.


    OK what on earth does that mean? Is Tan saying that those claw footed tubs are as comfortable as a coffin or??? What's soothing about a sarcophagus? A particular type of coffin that supposedly ate the flesh quickly? That's like saying that a nice pine coffin is soothing, that the tub in your bathroom as as soothing as a walnut coffin?

    ??

    Does this offhand remark, liks to many of Tan's things ("cooperative vegetables") have any meaning at all?

    ginny

    HarrietM
    August 5, 2002 - 07:09 am
    I'm with Babi and Stephanie on the subject of Ruth being a put-upon woman. Ruth is a necessary woman to many people. She organizes Art's personal life, caretakes his children, watches out for her mother, and maintains a busy, productive professional life as a ghostwriter. Yet, I can't think of one of those areas where her actual accomplishments have not been trivialized and taken for granted by the people she deals with. From her good natured interactions with Art's daughters to her pleasant responses with authors, Ruth has what I would call a high stress job. She may work at home, but she has to translate the half formed concepts of others into a coherent book and then allow someone else to take all the credit. Her family assumes she merely transcribes books or corrects spelling.

    The passages surrounding Luling's visit to the doctor are just remarkable, I thought. It provides such a vivid picture of the relationship between Ruth and Luling. No wonder Ruth is so accepting and good natured with others. Look at the crucible in which she was raised!

    Bombarded with unreasonable demands since childhood, moving cauuuuutiously around her mother's anxieties, being blackmailed emotionally whenever she tried to inject some rationality into their conversations...Ruth learned to accept unreasonable treatment as the norm, and move beyond it so that she notices only the underlying love of those who take advantage of her. She IS loved, but is that enough? I do feel that the mother/daughter relationship in this book is not limited only to the Asian cultures. With a few variations, any ethnic group could interrelate in this same complex way.

    After a childhood accident, Ruth learned that silence brought her more love and attention than all of her activist pleas. Her mother actually demonstrated all her tender devotion while Ruth was silent. In adulthood, silence frees Ruth from responsibilities that she normally shoulders, and provides a kind of signature cache to her life.

    Ruth does fight back though. Her mother, Luling, is such a strange woman with her guilty tales of Precious Auntie and ghostly curses, that Ruth discards the genuine nuggets of her inheritance right along with the superstitious nonsense. She discards a document in Chinese calligraphy and leaves it at the bottom of a desk drawer for many years because she believes her mother has nothing sensible to reveal.

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 5, 2002 - 07:51 am
    Ginny, what a fabulous link! Fascinating. Looking at that picture, it's hard to judge just how high it is. In order to get in the thing, wouldn't one have to use a step-ladder or something?

    It's interesting to note that you said you felt a momentary desire to be cooled within this cold sarcophagus, something like what Tan meant in her passage about the tub.

    Harriet, I agree that to me, Ruth seems very put upon, and at times I felt a faint irritation that she was letting people walk over her. Do you think her choice of profession had anything to do with the relationship between mother and daughter?

    High cedar:

    Yes, it seems that for someone as educated as Ruth appears to be, counting fingers, and even toes, seems like a childish thing to do, doesn't it?

    Lorrie

    BaBi
    August 5, 2002 - 08:03 am
    No, no! Ruth (Tan) is saying the claw-footed iron tub is as UNcomfortable as a coffin. A lot of old things become popular; that doesn't mean they are comfortable.

    Harriet, I think your observations are excellent and 'right on'. Ruth's work is not understood by others, and is therefore trivialized. (I ran into that in my own profession, in medical records. No one outside the profession had the vaguest idea of all that was involved.)

    And don't you find it a little scary to think that Ruth might never have gotten that manuscript translated; might never have know the fascinating background of her family? I suspect it happens more often than we know. My grandmother had given me a notebook compiled by her father, including poems he had written and commentary on the "Huns" of WWI. (He was Austrian.) Then when my Mother died, my Father in his grief moved us out of the house, throwing away so much that had accumulated...including that notebook. I have often wished I had that notebook back. ...Babi

    Ginny
    August 5, 2002 - 08:50 am
    Babi, right! As I said, YOU are asying that Tan is saying the tub is unvomfortable! Right!

    I am saying that, given the nature of a sarcophagus, she might be implying something different. hahahaha Don't mind me, i extrapolate all over the place, but truly they seem, in real life, to have a hold on you and also I hate to extrapolate further, but they are certainly symbolic of death, and/or and depression.

    I have no idea if Tan has even seen one or if she has, what she meant. Hopefully at the Bookfest 2003 we will get to ask her personally as I know Sarah our Judge can get her for us in CA! Total faith in Sarah!

    So sayeth She Who Extrapolates over a Cereal Box!

    hahahah

    Extrapolations R Us

    HarrietM
    August 5, 2002 - 08:54 am
    Oh yes, LORRIE. There's a clear connection between Ruth's relationship to her mother and her job.

    In her childhood, Ruth often had to interpret her mother's opinions from her spoken Chinese to written English, particularly in school and in other official places. She became an expert at phrasing her mother's extravagant speech into acceptable, logical English. That skill became one that she built on as she became a ghostwriter.

    Babi, you brought up the very point that concerned me. Sometimes, when we're young it's possible to associate our cultural legacy with the traits of our parents that turn us "off." What a pity to throw out the "gold" right along with parental quirks!

    Harriet

    Ginny
    August 5, 2002 - 09:22 am


    HARRIET! My goodness!

    Ruth learned to accept unreasonable treatment as the norm, and move beyond it so that she notices only the underlying love of those who take advantage of her.

    What a fabulous point of view, maybe that's true for all of us, what makes us look for the underlying stuff anywhere, I must think about that, wonderful wonderful point!

    Her mother actually demonstrated all her tender devotion while Ruth was silent. In adulthood, silence frees Ruth from responsibilities that she normally shoulders, and provides a kind of signature cache to her life.

    Gosh that's good and well said, so you think it may then in adulthood, this silence, be deliberate? Or??

    She discards a document in Chinese calligraphy and leaves it at the bottom of a desk drawer for many years because she believes her mother has nothing sensible to reveal.

    Yes, and also there was that other scrap of paper, from Auntie? I found that bit maddening and frustrating, and BOTH are instances of failed communication, too.

    Super points, Everybody! (Does it mean something in my own life that I still don't see her put upon but instead making choices?)

    A very important thing about Ruth and her relationship to her mother is said on the next to the last page of our selection this time:



    And had GaoLing known all along that the necklace was fake, that Ruth, the good daughter, was also a fake?



    Thie entire book is like Harriet said Ruth's life was, full of smoke and mirrors, hiding tghe devastating real facts.

    Suyer discussion and perspectives!

    ginny

    Lorrie
    August 5, 2002 - 04:19 pm
    I've been thinking about "cooperative vegetables." I've come to the conclusion that Tan simply meant fresh vegetables that were purchased at the Farmers' Co-op, not a seies of veggies that got along real well with each other. Hahahahaha!

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 5, 2002 - 04:52 pm
    Sorry I'm a bit behind but have had my daughter staying with me from interstate and am only up to Ch. 2.

    I see Ruth as having pretty poor self esteem, continually putting herself down undoubtedly affected by the attitude that her mother had, and has, towards her. She goes overboard trying to please Lu Ling as well as all of the other people who touch her life, even including her step-daughters. She desperately wanats to be liked. Her uncertainty about herself and her actions also adds to her feelings of guilt.

    There would be some conflict of cultures between mother and daughter. , Lu Ling still hanging on to the old ways of her country of birth and upbringing and Ruth torn between the desire to please her mother,frustrated by her demands, and the influences of her own very different American upbringing. Also Lu Ling would have been moulded by her own rather strange relationship with her own mother, Precious Auntie, and this would have affected the way that she reared Ruth. I am sure that Tan will solve this as the story unfolds.

    I am very impressed with the way in which Amy Tan details Ruth's day to day activities - Ruth just doesn't buy turnips, she explains why she likes turnips and how she eats them (again some uncertainty here) - she takes you into her reasoning as to why she buys an orchid and not other flowers. The meeting and courtship with Art is given in a sensitive and detailed style as are her relationships with her friend, Wendy, and the authors she is currently working with. I agonised with her when she was working through the reasons why her relationship with her previous partner had foundered. I loved the bits about Wendy's mother and her toy boy.

    I believe that Ruth's silences or loss of voice could be psycho-somatic. I know that when I would work with a very traumatic case, I would lost my voice - laryngitis - . This was so obvious that one of the doctors I was working with would constantly tell me that this was a symptom of throat cancer. I haven't lost my voice since I stopped doing clinical work.

    Somebody asked who was telling the story - what voice. I think that the story is being told by a narrator (omniscient).

    Have really enjoyed all the posts. Very thought provoking.

    Barbara

    Lorrie
    August 5, 2002 - 08:29 pm
    Barbara S.: Wonderful post! You commented that a lot of the difference between the two women was due to a culture clash, and I do think you are so right! I have seen it myself not only with Oriental mothers and daugters, but other nationalities as well.

    I must say we have a great group of readers here. So many of you are interpreting Amy Tan's characters in so many ways! Good.

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 6, 2002 - 05:28 am
    Barbara, so glad to see you here, can you explain what happens in this:



    I believe that Ruth's silences or loss of voice could be psycho-somatic. I know that when I would work with a very traumatic case, I would lost my voice - laryngitis - . This was so obvious that one of the doctors I was working with would constantly tell me that this was a symptom of throat cancer. I haven't lost my voice since I stopped doing clinical work.



    I am interested in how it FEELS? WHY it happens and how it feels when this occurs? How do you communicate when this happens and does it work better?

    We all know it's easier to write a letter than to confront somebody in person, I wonder if this losing the voice of Ruths which I still think is deliberate, is a way of distancing people?

    On page 10 Ruth seems to be making a conscious decision, "She made her voiceless state a decision, a matter of will, and not a disease or a mystery."

    I have never known anybody like Larry Hagman who deliberately did not speak...how long? How long did Ruth go?

    Every August 12 like clockwork. Tell me, is some of your frustration at her being...er....run over by others, etc., could some of it be irritation at her...er....choice of coping?

    I think, is this something against me, that if I were married to a person who refused to speak for a month or so he'd get to hear a lot more than if he occasionally said pass the ketchup, not sure....wonder if she would keep that up if she had children?

    Another sort of sly thing was said on page 84, "as if Ruth would know, just because she had to write the answers to her questions in sand. "

    That's strange? Why would writing an answer make it more important than speaking it?

    In one place 54 in my book, Ruth thinks on her mother's threats to die and how it makes her feel: ("she panicked and wanted to run away before the world fell down.") What, for instance, could she have done with her mother, do you think? Have you ever known parents who (other than Sanford and Son) who routinely threatened to "die?" What could be done with such a parental experience?

    Thinking of Ruth considering herself (the good daughter) a "fake," I'm beginning to wonder, not only why she might consider herself so, but if WE also consider her one? Do we?

    judywolfs
    August 6, 2002 - 07:08 am
    The postings in this discussion are so thought provoking! Look what I recently came across: Every year, the earth passes through some kind of space debris, which we in the Northern Hemisphere observe as shooting stars. This is known as the Perseid Meteor Shower. The peak shooting star show (up to 50 shooting stars per hour) often occurs on August 12, the same day that Ruth loses her voice. Hmmm... didn't Precious Auntie tell Ruth that she got burned by swallowing a shooting star?

    Annie3
    August 6, 2002 - 08:53 am
    I want to read this book and join in but I can't find it in my area so I ordered it from Amazon and it's not here yet. I hope I get the book while you're all still discussing it. The posts are so very interesting.

    BaBi
    August 6, 2002 - 11:40 am
    Ginny, you brought up an interesting question about LuLing's reaction to Ruth's sand writing. I don't know if it made the answers more important, but it certainly seemed to make them more acceptable. Two possibiities occur to me, and maybe it's a bit of both. One is that the sand writing put a bit of 'distance' between her daughter and the answer. Where a spoken answer (like 'salty') might have been perceived as criticism, the word written in the sand was more objective? The other idea is that LuLing has a deep respect for writing, especially calligraphy. The sand writing, I think, would have associations in her mind with her own craft of calligraphy, and make her more open to it. Just speculation....Babi

    Lorrie
    August 6, 2002 - 01:05 pm
    Hi, Annie3! I like your garden in your home page! Welcome to our group!

    Don't worry about not having your book yet. As you can see by the schedule above, we are still only on the first segment. Please join in when you can---we would love to hear what you have to say about this wonderful book.

    Lorrie

    Hallie Mae
    August 6, 2002 - 01:53 pm
    I found my book and have read up to chapter 2. I agree with Barbara S's assessment of Ruth. She has no feelings of self worth because of her extremely critical mother . She is constantly seeking approval from others to feel good about herself. I think some of her quirks, such as counting on fingers and toes, are just compulsive behaviors. Her retreat into silence is what is keeping her sane, she re -charges her batteries then and it gives her a feeling of control over at least a part her life.. Art is a manipulative snot, taking complete advantage of her, knowing just which buttons to push to make her feel guilty.

    Hallie Mae

    annafair
    August 6, 2002 - 04:42 pm
    I am careless..and I say that honestly but rather bragging.. I finished the book before Aug 1 because I couldnt put it down..Even with air conditioning the house has been hot so one evening I went into the front room because for some reason both heat and air conditioning seems stronger there. I propped myself up and finished the book but forgot I left it in that room. When I took some things in today there was the book ..so now I have to compare what you have said with where you are and not forge ahead.

    There are two things I would like to say about the characters. One is Ruth's silence. My husband died on MAr 25'94. His death was not unexpected and I had known for two years it would happen.SO I thought I was prepared for this. At that time I kept a yearly calander on the door to the pantry. Every month was listed and I wrote in all the birthdays etc ...I did not write the day he died. Now each month in spite of the fact I though I was handling things and doing everything needed I found myself at my doctors..a sinus infection,ear infection, you name it I had it. It was Novemeber before I noticed something. ( I think I am slow sometimes) I was ill again and all of my Thanksgiving plans deleted..When I was checking to see some dates all of a sudden I became aware that my doctor appts were always on the 22nd or the 23rd of EACH month since my husband had died! I remember being stunned by that revelation. There was no happy feeling concerning the holidays and I wanted to ignore them. So I became ill before Thanksgiving..and when I had finished the 10 days of antibiotics I wondered how I would get through Christmas. I started with another fever and terrible headache..my youngest daughter called who lived in Fredericksburg then and she came right down because I sounded so bad over the phone. It was pnuemonia..not the walking kind but the bacterial kind. My doctor wanted to put me in the hospital but I told him if he did I would die there. He allowed me to stay home and treat myself and a week before Christmas my oldest daughter and her husband came for me because the Doctor said I would have a relapse if I didnt rest. Because of her father's death she decided against a tree and my youngest daughter came for me Xmas day to go home with her It was dark when we arrived in Fredericksburg and the main street was all aglow with lights and I remember saying OH MY GOD IT IS CHRISTMAS> I stayed until the second week in JAn when I returned..So I know how you can be affected by events. All the time I thought I was handling things well ..my body recognized my grief and felled mw with whatever was going around. It took me five years before I could host a Christmas at home for the family. Even today and I am never conscious of this about the 20th of March I will start feeling ill. I may not get ill but I am anxious and out of sorts.

    This is so long but the other thing is my relationship with my mother. My parents were much older than normal and I, like most children thought they were hopelessly antiquated. YES I LOVED THEM and I knew I was loved. But I had to become a senior citizen before I APPRECIATED them. Now I can see how wise they were, how thoughtful and helpful they were and what a wonderful childhood I had. Also how supportive of my interests and wishes they were. If I have any regret as an adult it is I wish I had been as wise then as I am now ...and told them all the things I can see clearly too late.

    anna

    HarrietM
    August 7, 2002 - 01:14 am
    I found myself wriggling in embarrassment for Ruth as her mother passed the fake pearls around the family gathering. "Look what my daughter buy me," boasts Luling. "They real." She was blatantly showing off how much her daughter valued her...and the pearls, wrong in weight and luster, and probably bare of any real gold on the clasp...screamed out an opposite story. Worse still, when Luling returned the pearls to Ruth as a gift of motherly love at the family gathering, didn't that public gesture of open devotion make Ruth look like an unloving daughter?

    Yet, didn't the pearls symbolize the cross cultural gap between Ruth and Luling? Before we know the characters, at the very beginning of the book (p. 6 of my edition), there is a poignant passage in the book where we see the pearls through Luling's eyes. She keeps them in the trunk reserved for her most precious belongings. She sees them as "the gray pearls from Hawaii, beautiful beyond belief." What a contrast Amy Tan provides when she shows us those same pearls through Ruth's eyes on p. 104. "Tahiti-style black pearls, the tag said, a twenty dollar bit of glassy junk to wear against sweaty skin on a tropically hot day."

    Ruth didn't start out planning to gift her mother with a junky trinket. She was caught up in the flush of her new romance with Art and the two of them were on a romantic Hawaiian vacation. Self absorbed, she simply forgot her mother's birthday and then hastily gave Luling her own new vacation souvenir necklace to compensate.

    In Luling's cultural background, only the most precious and valuable things are modestly presented as being a small gift of little value, so Ruth's honest disclaimers about the value of the necklace..."it's nothing much, mom"... only convinced her mother what a great treasure the pearls really were. Ruth was caught between her mother's Chinese culture and her own American straight-talk. I guess Ruth originally just couldn't cope with putting down Luling's joy and let the misunderstanding ride.

    Was Ruth really a bad daughter? Not in my opinion she wasn't. She proved her love and tolerance a hundred-thousand times over as she grew up. Was Luling a bad mother? She was certainly a difficult one, but the depth of her love was undeniable. Sometimes when we truly love someone, a parent or a child, a spouse or a sibling, trying to understand the loved one can be similar to winding our way through a foggy maze filled with confusion? Amy Tan has a knack for guiding us through that maze and dissolving a few of the mists.

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 7, 2002 - 09:33 am
    Oh, AnnaFair, how sad! Any good psychologist would see the connection between your husband's date of death and the matching dates on the calendar when you became ill. If that isn't psychosomatic, I don't know what is.

    And Harriet, I was also intrigued by the contrasting description of the pearl necklace. As I said somewhere here before, I must have lousy taste because I thought they sounded very pretty. Hahaha

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 7, 2002 - 09:36 am
    On Friday we will continue on with Chapter 5 and parts further, but before we do there is one question I've been meaning to ask you all:

    In the constant sparring between Ruth and LuLing, who do you think is at fault?

    Lorrie

    judywolfs
    August 7, 2002 - 11:06 am
    Lorrie, I think both Ruth and LuLing are desperately trying to develop a mother/daughter relationship, and neither is at fault. The enormous cultural divide is to blame, not the women.

    Hallie Mae
    August 7, 2002 - 12:50 pm
    Lorrie, I agree with judywolfs, it's nobody's fault.

    My mother and I were often at cross purposes, no cultural gap but a personality gap a mile wide. (: In spite of that we loved each other very much.

    Hallie Mae

    goldensun
    August 7, 2002 - 04:06 pm
    If one must assign fault, I would say it lies more on Luling's side. Ruth was born and grew up in the states and lacks the advantage of understanding Chinese culture. Luling, in spite of her eagerness to come to this country, has clung to the old ways of life rather than trying to understand American ways and attitudes. Ruth has paid a heavy price in her personal life for Luling's unwillingness to learn and fit in.

    Barbara S
    August 7, 2002 - 04:36 pm
    I was touched by your story of the repetitiveness that was associated after your husband's death. The brain and emotions defy logic sometimes, don't they?

    GINNY: You asked me how it felt to lose my voice. Darned irritating, considering that my work was in an interview situation. However as I mostly listened it wasn't too hard to have to talk occasionally in husky whispers. I would think that my voicelessness was not nearly as deep seated as Ruth's though.

    BACK TO THE BOOK: I think the description of Ruth as a bad daughter was her own assessment of herself - once again the lack of value that she placed on herself in just about every relationship.

    I admired Tan's story telling technique in Ch.4 when she set the scenario of her characters. She chose the dinner to illustrate the complexity of Ruth's relationships - her extended family, Art's ex and her family and some people she works with closely. Wendy too, again emerges as a significant person in her life. In this Tan also illustrates the conflict of cultures and the emotional interactions: Ruth's feelings about Art's ex and her parents, (even to the unfavourable comparison of clothes) and their attitude towards Ruth and Lu Ling. Also the superiiority of Gao Ling (?) and her family and the thinly veiled patronage everyone at the dinnner displayed about the necklace. Lu Ling also has the characteristic insight of some people with dementia towards someone close to them, when she picks up that something is troubling Ruth. For the first time Lu Ling verbalises the secret of her birth that is known only to herself and her "sister". I think that it is very difficult to apportion blame in relationships, especially from an objective viewpoint.

    Barbara

    BaBi
    August 8, 2002 - 10:33 am
    About all I have to say here is: "I agree". I agree with Harriet assessment of the incident of the pearls. I agree with Barbara that the "bad daughter" is Ruth's questioning view of herself. And I agree that both Mother and Daughter love each other, but do not understand each other, and it's not really the fault of either. A greater understanding and insight into Luling is beginning to develop for Ruth from the manuscript, so we should gradually see an improvement in this relationship. ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 8, 2002 - 10:50 am
    Today we will finish up with this first section of "Bonesetter," but I wanted to ask you all, in your opinion, do you feel that this book is going to be more autobiographical than outright fiction? So many of Amy Tan's books deal with mother/daughter relationships, one can hardly be blamed for wondering.

    Lorrie

    Tomorrow a new set of questions! It gets even better!

    BaBi
    August 8, 2002 - 10:57 am
    I have always felt there is an autobiographical element in all of Amy Tan's books. Surely she is drawing on her experiences for the background of these novels. ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 8, 2002 - 06:28 pm
    "The first time Amy Tan-The New York Times best-selling author of The Joy Luck Club, The Kitchen God's Wife, and The Hundred Secret Senses-learned her mother's real name as well as that of her grandmother was on the day she died. It happened as Tan and several siblings-unified by a need to feel helpful instead of helpless-gathered to discuss their dying mother's past and prepare her obituary. Tan was stunned when she realized she had not known her own mother's birth name. It was just one of several surprises. In the act of writing a simple obituary Tan came to realize there was still so much she did not know about her. Soon afterwards she began rewriting the novel she had been working on for five years. Inspired by her own experiences with family secrets kept by one generation from the next, and drawn from a lifetime of questions and images, the result is The Bonesetters's Daughter."
    From Publisher's Weekly


    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 8, 2002 - 08:13 pm


    Thankyou for giving us the piece from Publishers' Weekly. It makes the fabric of the story, so much more understandable.

    I am a little confused about (in the questions) Does Ruth recognise that she is manipulating her mother as a child?

    From my experience the behaviour of people who are suffering from dementia becomes increasingly childlike and others, particularly carers,tend to respond to them on the same level. People who don't understand tend to mock them or treat them as mad. It seemed to me that Ruth was very concerned for her mother's welfare, while still not wanting to believe that there was anything wrong. However, I may have missed something - did Ruth use her mother's dementia to her own advantage?

    Lorrie
    August 8, 2002 - 09:49 pm
    Barbara:

    On page 148 (the paperback) when Ruth has told her mother about the horrendous behavior of Lance, and her mother refuses to believe her or even listen, Ruth knows the only way she can convince her mother to leave that place was to pretend there was a message from Precious Auntie telling them to do so.

    Manipulation of the highest form----but I don't really think Ruth as a child was aware that she was doing this. Is that what you mean?

    I can't see that Ruth was using her mother's dementia to her own advantage. I, too, thought she was very caring and concerned, and it seemed to me that she was trying to do everything she could to help her mother. It couldn't have been easy---losing out on a Hawaii vacation, (and even later on phoning Art and discovering he was not in his bed at 5:00 in the morning).

    Lorrie

    Hallie Mae
    August 9, 2002 - 08:19 am
    I think Luling's whole life was ruled by superstition, this is probably the reason Ruth tries to distance herself from her Chinese heritage. I'm guessing that later on in the book she will come to appreciate it.

    Since her mother never believed or listened to her, Ruth communicated with her mother the only way she knew how, through Precious Auntie. I don't think it was a conscious manipulation, simply the way a child learned to deal with her mother..

    Ruth is riddled with all kinds of guilts regarding her mother, in giving her mother the fake pearls, she's labeled herself the "fake" daughter.

    Lorrie you won't believe what is playing during the B&L Washington trip - Shear Madness! I was sorry to read that you were not going to be taking the trip.

    Eileen

    HarrietM
    August 9, 2002 - 09:31 am
    Luling was very difficult to communicate with throughout Ruth's childhood. Whenever Ruth tried to stand up for herself, or disagree with her mother, Luling began to rant and rave, accusing Ruth of wanting her to die. I doubt that Luling's dementia was very severe when Ruth was in grade school, but her manipulative pattern on her daughter certainly was, I thought. Luling had a gift for refocusing attention on HERSELF so emphatically, that Ruth's complaints never had a chance.

    Ruth was a heavily manipulated child, getting privacy and respect from Luling only in those areas that her mother considered valuable. She was given some time and distance to do her schoolwork and study, or read, but that was pretty much the limit. Her right to watch TV, visit friends or have private time/private thoughts was negligible. At one point in her adolescence, Ruth even contemplated suicide.

    Of course mama outdid Ruth in every way. Luling was a STAR where provoking guilt was concerned. Did Luling fall out of the window deliberately, after reading Ruth's comments in her diary? Wow, what a complex set of emotions that provoked between mother and daughter!

    I DO believe that Ruth deliberately manipulated Luling on the issue of relocating their home to another geographic location. Honestly, I can't see why a stigma would attach to her for that. It was Luling who began the custom of using her child as a spirit intermediary for her dead mother, Precious Auntie. What a responsibility for Ruth! Ruth learned that when SHE spoke as Precious Auntie, her mother LISTENED. Ruth had to pick stocks, comfort her mother's fears about curses with reassurances from her dead grandmother, and put up with all sorts of issues that she, a child, didn't understand. Wasn't it remarkable that Ruth used her power as Precious Auntie so seldom on her own behalf?

    I admire Ruth for using the power of speaking as/for Precious Auntie that her superstitious mother gave her, to remove herself from a dangerous situation with Lance. If most of this novel is really autobiographical, I see authoress Amy Tan as a remarkable survivor. More power to her!

    Harriet

    Ginny
    August 9, 2002 - 09:58 am
    This is such a wonderful discussion with so many provocative comments and insights, great work, Lorrie, on that piece from Publisher's Weekly, that answers a lot of questions. I have loved all your perspectives! Marvelle, I actually got chills on the shooting star thing, and Everybody's perspectives on Lorrie's fault question, I'm still pondering it, that was a VERY good question. I ponder it as I walk, swinging from side to side on the issue, having been both: child of aging parent and aging parent.

    So many intangibles.

    But I can't pass on to this next section without saying that Harriet's post above on the meaning of the pearl necklace was the most beautifully written thing I think I have ever seen. She captured the poignancy and almost excrutiating clash of cultures exemplified by the pearls, and ironically symbolized by the gift of the pearls:



    Yet, didn't the pearls symbolize the cross cultural gap between Ruth and Luling?

    Ruth didn't start out planning to gift her mother with a junky trinket. She was caught up in the flush of her new romance with Art and the two of them were on a romantic Hawaiian vacation. Self absorbed, she simply forgot her mother's birthday and then hastily gave Luling her own new vacation souvenir necklace to compensate.

    In Luling's cultural background, only the most precious and valuable things are modestly presented as being a small gift of little value, so Ruth's honest disclaimers about the value of the necklace..."it's nothing much, mom"... only convinced her mother what a great treasure the pearls really were. Ruth was caught between her mother's Chinese culture and her own American straight-talk. I guess Ruth originally just couldn't cope with putting down Luling's joy and let the misunderstanding ride

    Sometimes when we truly love someone, a parent or a child, a spouse or a sibling, trying to understand the loved one can be similar to winding our way through a foggy maze filled with confusion


    Oh gosh that's good writing, Harriet's is good writing, and Tan's is good writing and this seemingly small incident is blown all out of proportion by the Chinese habit of downplaying smething great as "nothing." Do you remember Wang Lung in The Good Earth and his habit of denouncing his baby so that the Gods would not take notice and get jealous?

    Oh what a poignant heart rending thing happened with the pearls, how ironic and how bitter.

    Beautifully captured by Harriet, thank you for that perspective, I HAD to say that before continuing but you all raise so many NEW questions, how good it is to think about the issues in a book, and to have such intelligent readers to talk to about them!

    Still thinking on the "fake daughter," and the "fault," and moving on to try to keep up, back later on, super super discussion!

    ginny

    judywolfs
    August 9, 2002 - 01:03 pm
    Ginny, I think you're on to something here: "Do you remember Wang Lung in The Good Earth and his habit of denouncing his baby so that the Gods would not take notice and get jealous?" Maybe that parallels the type of thinking that LuLing follows in bringing up Ruth. Somewhere I picked up the idea that LuLing wonders how would a daughter know that she's loved and valued unless the mother constantly criticizes and corrects her.

    Annie3
    August 9, 2002 - 02:39 pm
    My book finally got here. I hope to read to chapter 5 and look over the posts.

    Lorrie
    August 9, 2002 - 03:58 pm
    Good for you, Annie3! Don't worry, we'll all be here when you catch up.

    Lorrie

    Apparently, in the Oriental way of thinking(?) the more you belittle something like a gift, or whatever, the more that particular item has value? Am I interpreting that right? It could explain how, in some translations from the Chinese, in books I have read, that sometimes the characters seem almost obsequious when they describe themselves of their posessions. Interesting.

    I do wish we had a reader here of Asian background, or someone who is familiar with these customs. Anyone?

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 10, 2002 - 08:44 am
    I recall in The Good Earth that the parents were afraid that bragging on the child might cause jealousy in the gods, so they walked about the streets saying things like " only a worthless child, etc, not worth looking at," I always thought that was curious, because of course it mimics the ancient Greeks and their tales of jealous gods, etc, specifically Arachne who was turned into a spider, hence the ...is it genus or phylum Arachinda, because she bragged on her weaving, it's amazing how these ancient beliefs seem universal.

    I couldn't remember the page designationa and read too far, but keeping to page 200 we have a lot explained in this section, and Precious Auntie's own self immolation is just hideous and horrifying, to me..we have the explanation of what a "bonesetter" does, but not about dragon bones..

    There is kind of a mix of images here, we have people digging for "dragon bones," since the Sung Dynasty, and we have juxtaposed with it a "bonesetter," and of course the Latin word for bone is OS, which also means mouth, quite an interesting set of images, and symbolsim, taken on the whole of the book, to me.

    Did you wonder whose bones it was that the people were digging from the lower level of the caves? Did you wonder what peoples or animals from what era they MIGHT have been? Obviosuly this was a long time ago, they began digging during the Sung Dynasty, when was that?

    Whose photo is that in the front of the book? Is it Precious Auntie on her wedding day?

    The strange "ivory like " headdress kinda stands out as possibly described in the book, to me?

    The scenes in her mother's apartment were particularly hard for me to read. I accompanied a dear friend to visit her mother and we actually went thru the same thing. I don't think this part is fiction, I don't think anybody would know or understand the subtle things that Tan reports here, what a sad sad thing to happen to anybody.

    and yet....and yet I have put a box of napkins in the freezer myself? yes I have. What does this MEAN?




    What did you make of LuLIng's "fall" from the window after she read her daughter's words?

    Do you interpret that the way I did?

    What a book, huh? Full to bursting of secrets, images, relationships, and pathos.




    By the way, I think Tan did another mystical thing with "Dementia, sister of Demeter," in the beginning of Chapter 5, I can't find any such person, can you?

    Demeter was the sister of Zeus and the mother of Persephone, have never heard of Dementia, is this another mystical being?

    ginny

    BaBi
    August 10, 2002 - 09:19 am
    No, I think "Dementia" was Ruth's own play own words, expressing how she felt about what was happening. And I always thought Luling deliberately went out the window, to punish Ruth for the pain her words had caused. The idea of suicide was always easier for Luling to contemplate; it had been an escape for Precious Auntie, which made it possible for Luling.

    I have a link here, which I HOPE will work, about dragon bones.

    http://www.austmus.gov.au/chinese_dinosaurs/dinosaurs.htm

    ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 11, 2002 - 03:01 pm
    Childhood memories are strange, aren't they? When LuLing remembers the compound where she grew up, a strange, damp, enclosed space sitting on a cliff with a ravine hovering behind it. The author describes it on page 181:

    "the walls of the Liu home were made of rocks exposed from the wahed-down earth. the rocks were stacked and held together with a mud, mortar, and millet paste, then plastered over with lime. They were sweaty damp in summer, moldy damp in winter. And in the many rooms of that house here and there was always another roof leak or drafty hole in the wall.

    And yet when I remember that house, I have a strange homesickness for it. Only there do I have a memory of secret places, warm or cool, of darkness where I hid and pretended I could escape to somewhere else."

    Great writing there!

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 11, 2002 - 03:07 pm
    Is anyone else confused as to the parentage here? I must confess I can't quite figure out just who LuLing's father was, unless they meant "Lui Jin Sen was the eldest of four sons. He was the one I called Father."

    And then in the next paragraph: "Baby Uncle was the fourth son, the youngest, the favorite. His name was Liu Hu Sen. He was my real father." Page 181

    Confusing, isn't it?

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 11, 2002 - 04:48 pm
    I have had a nasty accident and won't be posting for a day or two, but will read all the posts. C U in a few days. Barbara

    Lorrie
    August 11, 2002 - 05:23 pm
    Oh, barbara, I am so sorry to hear about your accident. We will definitely miss your comments here, you're a thoughtful, faithful commentator, so hang in there, and hurry back to post as soon as you are able. God speed!

    Lorrie

    HarrietM
    August 11, 2002 - 07:44 pm
    Barbara, hope you recuperate quickly. I do enjoy your comments.

    What a remarkable history begins to emerge for Precious Auntie! A free spirited young woman, intelligent, inquiring, thoughtful...ahead of her time and her cultural background...yet emotional and vulnerable. Again and again I keep going back to look at the photograph on the front of my soft cover edition of BONESETTER now, because, like Ginny, I begin to wonder if this is a real person...perhaps author Amy Tan's real grandmother? Or at least a simulation of Precious Auntie before she "ate" the fire? How much of this story is true and how much is fiction?

    Would Amy Tan's lips curve in the same way as the Asian girl on the cover if Tan were not smiling? If Tan removed the hat that she wears in her Author Picture on the back of my paperback edition, would her eyebrows have the same distinctive curve as the Chinese girl on the cover of the book? Is there a family resemblance?

    I begin to see an exploration of TWO mother-daughter relationships in this book...Luling and her mother, Precious Auntie... and secondly, Luling and her own daughter, Ruth.

    How are those two relationships similar? Luling is the sole focus of her mother's care and love...perhaps the only reason that Precious Auntie chooses to go on living? She is protected from the hostility of her real world by her mother's love...but entirely unaware of her own vulnerability, caused by her illegitimacy. Luling has no hint of the tragic romance between her mother and Liu Hu Sen, also known as Baby Uncle...the youngest son of the house in which she lives. Ruth is also her mother's only true family, also the sole focus of the love of her mother, Luling?

    Luling "falls" from the window after rejecting words from her daughter. At this stage of the book we have not yet arrived at the hows and whys of the death of Precious Auntie, or the reasons for Lulings guilt and fear, but there may be a parallel situation developing between Precious Auntie and Luling?

    In each case, the child doesn't understand the true situation of the parent and undervalues the parental love. In each generation, the parental love is so strong and controlling that it is a burden and a problem to the child.

    How does Precious Auntie convey such complex ideas to Luling with hand gestures? That puzzles me. is there perhaps an intuitive bond that enables Luling to read her mother's signs so accurately? Does Luling's exquisite calligraphy originate from her mother's desire to teach her daughter to write and communicate with herself more easily?

    Harriet

    Hallie Mae
    August 12, 2002 - 07:36 am
    Barbara, I hope all is going well with you.

    Harriet, your question had me looking back for an answer, this was in "Truth."

    "She had no voice, just gasps and wheezes, the snorts of a ragged wind. She told me things with grimaces and groans, dancing eyebrows and darting eyes. She wrote about the world on my carry-around chalkboard. She also made pictures with her blackened hands. Hand-talk, face-talk, and chalk-talk were the languages I grew up with, soundless and strong."

    In going back to the beginning of this book I found a quote from Amy Tan in her preface that has more meaning now that I have started to read the book again. Thanks to "senior moments" I don't remember the rest of the story and am re-discovering it all over again.

    "As luck and fate would have it, two ghostwriters came to my assistance during the last draft. The heart of this story belongs to my grandmother, its voice to my mother, I give them credit for anything good, and have already promised them I will try harder next time (shades of Ruth?)"

    Hallie Mae

    HarrietM
    August 12, 2002 - 08:57 am
    Hallie Mae, thanks for your quote from the preface. Along with Lorrie's excerpt from Publisher's weekly, it's really helpful in determining the existence of biographical information in this book. There seems little doubt that a lot of this book is reality based, but how much? I suppose we may never know....

    I still wonder about the complexity of communication between Luling and her mother. When Amy Tan italicizes dialogue between Precious Auntie and little Luling, does that mean that Precious Auntie is talking with hand and facial gestures? Chalkboard? Complex, abstract communications pass between mother and daughter through gestures? That must be difficult to interpret?

    As she grows older, Luling is becoming rebellious, much as her own future daughter, Ruth will be at the same age. Luling loves Precious Auntie, but believing herself secure as a true daughter in the house of those who are really her grandparents, she sometimes treats her real mother as a nursemaid/servant. She becomes impatient at Precious Auntie's criticisms and fights back with arguments of her own. Like all young people, Luling wants to break free of her "nursemaid's" control and power. She wants to be her own boss.

    Harriet

    Stephanie Hochuli
    August 12, 2002 - 12:25 pm
    Back from my mini vacation in North Carolina and refreshed. I like this part of the book. The village story is fascinating and I honestly did not know they made ink this way. The story has a lyrical grace that is so nice. Ruth on the other hand and her mother are still busy disagreeing. Her Mother surely overcomplicated her daughters life. I still have problems with the way Mothers treat daughters in the oriental world. Sons are treasures, but not so daughters. Makes me glad not to be an oriental daughter. I was lucky in that I had parents especially a father who treasured having a daughter.

    Lorrie
    August 12, 2002 - 01:37 pm
    Hallie Mae, Stephanie, and HarrietM:

    I must congratulate you all on the way you seem to have grasped the essential conflict between mother and daughter in this book. It's almost two-fold---Ruth and her mother, LuLing and her mother (Preciaous Auntie).

    And yes, Harriet, I also find it difficult to imagine how LuLing and Precious Auntie could communicate so well. They must have developed a sort of sign language between them, and of course, even grunts and wheezes could mean something. It's fascinating that they were able to "talk" so well to each other.

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 13, 2002 - 02:46 am
    Babi, thank you for that fascinating link, so the "dragons," are realy dinosaurs, I like that, for some reason, very much.

    Hallie Mae, now that you are reading it for the second time, does anything especially stand out as being different? Thank you for that ghost writer thing, I do see a confusing presence of voices here and it sometimes puts me off, differences in style and expression, I'm glad to know I'm not going insane.

    Steph, welcome back, you are truly lucky in your own parents, I'm not sure LuLing had much of a father figure for a young girl to rely on, in fact, who is RUTH'S father?

    ??

    Where ARE the fathers, for a book which is supposedly about women dominated I'm not seeing the dominators? Maybe the point is being made that we cause our own intimidations?

    Harriet, like you, I'm also struggling with the complexities of Ruth's relationship with her mother, it seems to me that this book is the type of thing that a daughter might write after the death of an other whom she had tried to the best of her ability, to please, out of worry, it almost seems a confessional.

    I was struck by the part where Ruth is talking to somebody and they casualy mention what they did for their mom and she realizes she has been having her mother over on Sundays and thought that was enough, and realizes in comparison it's not. It's never wise to compare family situations, the grass always looks greener on the other side.

    Early on Harriet mentioned that Ruth and Tan could stop worrying, they WERE good daughters, and had done a good job, I think that what we're seeing here is a classic struggle where a well meaning person struggles the best they can against impossible odds and uncooperatve difficult people, to do the right thing.

    I know Tan has said she has been quite depressed, almost suicidal, I hate to see somebody beat themselves up when they have tried the best they can. In this way the dragons we all carry around as baggage, cause a lot of problems for others, especially when the others are just trying (pearls) to remember and show their love.

    I'm beginning to wonder where this book is going.

    More....

    Ginny
    August 13, 2002 - 03:11 am
    The helplessness or...idea that Stephanie first advanced, that Ruth was...how did she put it, needing to stand up for herself is quite interesting, to me.

    In this section, for instance, we have to wonder if Ruth, for example, is a victim or if perhaps she expects too much?

    At one point Art asks, in relation to her mother, "What are you going to do?"

    what is her reaction?

    She noted with dismay that he hasd asked what she would do, had not said "we."


    Stop and think about that a minute. What would be the normal thing for him to have said?

    WE? What are WE going to do?

    IS that normal?

    What is the effect on poor Ruth? She reviews her relationship with Art. She sees his lack of marriage to her as a failure. She beats up on herself:



    Why did she feel she didn't belong to anyone? Did she unconsciously choose to love people who kept their distance?



    This is a woman who as a girl has been conditioned to feel guilt because she has not been able to appease or carry the long dragged baggage of others.

    Art said what he said because ART is speaking from ART'S point of view, she's not burdened with translating for the WORLD, but she thinks she is. She expects to bear the burden of everybody's upsets and problems to the point of nothing for herself.

    NOW I see it, Stephanie, in her own sadness.

    Here's another one:

    The fact is that we can't get rid of each other no matter how much we try. We're stuck through the ages, with the bonds cemented by sticky rice and tapioca pudding.


    Some day this daughter will have to come to grips with and forgive the childlike frustrated baggage carrying parent she had. LuLing is dramatic and unique, her inability to speak is dramatized by all the superstitious stuff she weaves into her life out of frustration, and the reader is caught right up in it, caught in the miasma of dragons and ghosts, and it's very much like being a bewildered child, and THAT'S also good writing.

    We are right there with Ruth, suffering right along side with her, at least I am, step by step.

    Agapi (ironically named, huh?) says "We embed the response and forget the cause, the past that was imperfect...."

    I love the way Tan invents books and authors to make her points here, just love it.

    More good writing, "as huggable as a fork." Hahahahah page 124, other fat women of the world, rejoice! Hahahahaha

    This is a family with serious communication problems. Note:



    And I did not know who she really was until I read what she wrote.

    "I am your mother," the words said.

    I read that only after she died.



    And now Ruth has this document to translate, language, the lack of communication, it puts the reader in the form of a frustrated child, secrets, ghosts of the past, it's almost as if anything at this point, is too much.

    What do you all make of the child writing I wish you would just kill yourself, knowing the mother would read it and the mother's dramatic "fall" from the window? What effect must that have had on the child?

    Who do you feel the most sorry for in this story? Or do you feel sorry for any of them?

    I think the answer to the excellent Question #3 that Lorrie put in the heading is that her Chinese heritage is full of hurt for Ruth, too many ghosts, too much negative baggage, a Drama Queen for a mother whom Ruth can't manage even as a child, much less an adult, and whom none of us could probably deal with.

    You tell me, if that were YOUR mother, what would YOU do?

    ginny

    Stephanie Hochuli
    August 13, 2002 - 07:10 am
    I keep thinking that this book can only be written by someone who had issue problems with her mother. Too much pain for too long. I too wonder about the absence of fathers. I would guess this is part of the point. That Ruths family is not into fathers. Possibly why Ruth has never married. Is she signaling that she hopes the stepchildren dont marry either? I have problems working out the relationships involved. The Non marriage of Precious Auntie started this whole sequence of women alone. I found the passages compelling.

    Lorrie
    August 13, 2002 - 07:29 am
    Ginny, those are really provocative thoughts. It's interesting what you posted about Ruth's feelings about how Art responded to her statements about her mother. What had she really expected?

    Stephanie:
    I see a sort of absence here of dominant male figures, a characteristic I have noticed in many of Tan's novels. It makes one wonder about Amy Tan's own personal relationship with her own mother, and how much of her books are aubiographical, doesn't it?

    Lorrie

    HarrietM
    August 13, 2002 - 12:03 pm
    Baby Uncle's visit to a fortune teller for omens of his hoped-for marriage to Precious Auntie sets an ominous tone in the chapter, "Heart." Baby Uncle wants his bride so much that he is willing to bribe the fortune teller until she sees favorable aspects to the union, even though the initial predictions are calamitous.

    I wonder what the author's personal opinions are about fortune tellers and omens? She certainly has one of them speak true things to Precious Auntie's beloved...even predicting that his strong and willful bride will eventually want to dominate and consume him. Would that have been the destiny of this couple if they had succeeded in marrying? The predictions, so prosaically given, have a ring of practicality in the village of Immortal Heart. Yet in modern day America, they sound like superstitious ravings.

    So which are they...superstition or truth? Do curses and predictions metamorph in shape depending on where they are heard...and by who? Luling, talking to her own daughter Ruth about the curse on their family, sounded bizarre and incompetent. Now, as I hear the original predictions and warnings, given in their correct cultural context, perhaps they have a different sound?

    Wasn't the scene where Precious Auntie burned herself excruciating? No one believed her that the brutal and greedy coffin maker, Chang, was the attacker who had provoked the death of her father and lover. More alone than she had ever been, placed in restraints when her grief drove her wild, she went over the edge and tried to kill herself in a horrible and painful way. She was really only a very young girl, about 14 or 15 years old when all of this took place.

    I can look back in the book now, and see why Precious Auntie tried to warn little Luling about curses and evil.

    Harriet

    BaBi
    August 13, 2002 - 12:31 pm
    When I read of the fortune teller's prediction to Baby Uncle, my thought was that the people of these small villages all know each other very well. The bonesetter's daughter was more educated, more involved in her father's work, more forthright and independent in her outlook than was customary for young women of her time. The 'fortune teller' would would be very likely to see all this a potential disaster for a happy marriage. It is my impression that strong-minded women were not seen as making good wives. ..Babi

    judywolfs
    August 13, 2002 - 12:38 pm
    Stephanie wrote "I too wonder about the absence of fathers. I would guess this is part of the point. That Ruths family is not into fathers." Interesting observation. I've been thinking about how men in general are characterized throughout the book. The "good" men (husbands, real fathers) are dead, of course. Then there's the family men, who are absent most of the time, and seem to be rather weak and demanding when they're around. Don't forget the evil, manipulative Changs, Ruth's wishy-washy Art, that horrible Lance from Ruth's childhood. It seems that the women are left to fend for themselves under distant but powerful dictators.

    Hallie Mae
    August 13, 2002 - 02:13 pm
    Ginny, in regard to reading this book second time around. I read this probably over a year ago and really don't remember what happens. I am enjoying all the different points of view about the characters .This discussion has deepened my understanding of the book tremendously.

    I'm not up to date on the assigned reading for this week so I have no comments about the men in the book.

    Someone remarked about Amy Tan's focus on mother/daughter relationships, this has been a particular fascination for her I think. The "Joy Luck Club" has three sets of mother/daughter conflicts.

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 13, 2002 - 04:37 pm
    Hallie Mae, you are welcome here whether you are up on a particular segment or not. We enjoy your comments, no matter what!

    In talking about Tan's apparent dislike of lving men, don't forget also the evil Chang, the coffin-maker (great choice of occupation for such a nasty character, right?)

    The chapter dealing with Precious Auntie's grief and subsequent suicide attempt is horrendous.

    Do you think that the wedding ensemble described in the book was the outfit worn by the woman in the picture in the heading above? I don't have a copy that has that picture, so it's a little hard for me to tell. Can you?

    Lorrie

    Hallie Mae
    August 14, 2002 - 08:47 am
    Lorrie, I looked back and the book describes two different outfits.

    ."...a picture taken on her wedding day ,she wore her best winter jacket one with a fur lined collar and a embroidered cap ." "for the journey to her wedding she changed to her bridal costume, a red jacket and skirt and the fancy headdress with a scarf." The first description fits the picture on the book. cover. I recall seeing a PBS show about a wedding in China, the headdress for the bride was a tall, square affair with a red scarf draped over it..

    Superstitions, ghosts, luck good and bad depending on signs and portents. This isn't just Chinese. I'm sure there are many of us whose parents or grandparents came from the "old country" with similar stories. In my case, being Irish , there were plenty of ghost stories . I remember listening to little old Irish ladies sitting around drinking their tea talking and about "seeing him, plain as day, right by the dresser." And my darling Aunt Lizzie used to read your tea leaves .

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 14, 2002 - 09:03 am
    Ah, Hallie Mae---you bring it all back. I remember my Irish grandparents, both of whom swear they could hear the "wail of the banshee" when dsomeone dies, and my other grandmother, who was aghast at someone's hat on a bed, (bad luck) two in a mirror (disappointment) an itchy palm (money received or given). So yes, these superstitions cling to all ethnic groups, I would say.

    Lorrie

    Faithr
    August 14, 2002 - 09:49 am
    And if I came to visit you and upon leaving forgot something, came back after it, your grandmother would have made me sit down for a least a minute before leaving again as an assurance I would not be hurt on the way home. I remember a zillion of these from my English grandmother though a lot of them are Irish based. Faith

    Lorrie
    August 14, 2002 - 09:51 am
    FaithR: boy, that's one I never heard before. Amazing!

    Lorrie

    In your opinion, do you think Chinese people are more prone to beliefs in superstition and ancestor worship than other ethcic groups? I would think that the Irish have an edge there.

    Faithr
    August 14, 2002 - 09:51 am
    ps I am not able to discuss this book now as I have a terrible problem remembering it. I read it last January or Feb. anyway, then I lent it and didnt get it back so ..I have no reference point. I remember it as you guys go along discussing it and it is great to read your discussion.Faith

    judywolfs
    August 14, 2002 - 11:06 am
    I think that most of the beliefs and practices depicted in this book that are being tagged as "superstitions" are actually based in spiritual awareness, fostered by cultural understanding; something very akin to mysticism.

    Barbara S
    August 14, 2002 - 04:42 pm
    So far I have the impression that the relationship between Precious Auntie and Lu Ling was different in many ways to that of Lu Ling and Ruth. Even though Lu Ling had inherited the waywardness of the younger Precious Auntie, I found the relationship between the two to be very tender and nurturing - even when she is writing about her mother years later this is evident, especially in Lu Ling's final words in "Heart".

    '"I am your mother", the words said. I read that only after she died. Yes I have a memory of her telling me with her hands, I can see her sayng this with her eyes. When it is dark, she says this to me in a clear voice I have never heard. She speaks in a language of shooting stars.'

    HOW BEAUTIFUL

    I don't think Ruth ever had this deep gentle, caring experience with her mother. The depth of communication was missing between Ruth and Lu Ling from Ruth's very young age, and one wonders what happened in Lu Ling's later life that changed her attitude. What I mean is that you would expect that Lu Ling might have inheritied the emotionality to relate to her daughter in the same way that her own mother had with her. But, and even though the Ruth/Lu Ling relationship was one of love, it was continually combative. And for a child growing up must have been catastrophic. The pressures put upon Ruth to comply with her mother's demands, the accusations that Ruth's behaviour might lead to her death "you want I die", "I die soon... and the suicide attempt must have been a very difficult life for a child, especially a child growing up in the conflict of two cultures. I can imagine that a lot of Ruth's behaviour,especially her deep sense of duty, was a consequence of handling the insecurity she must have felt as a child.

    How do you read this?

    Must go. arm is hurting.

    Stephanie Hochuli
    August 14, 2002 - 05:38 pm
    The coffin maker is represented as pure evil all through the book. He also only offered a second wife position , not a first wife. Then , why was he so set on his own way. Amazing the way they portray him. I have read all of Amy Tan and all of her books concern relationships between mothers and daughters. Never a husband and/or father as an important character.

    annafair
    August 14, 2002 - 06:15 pm
    All of your comments and thinking are so wonderful to read and digest.Although I found my book I havent been able to even re read a paragraph.

    You Irish ladies remind me my Irish grandmother who lived with us and I had to share my bedroom ..I was an only girl with five brothers and since I was the only occupant of that room and no other room was available. Did her belief in "signs" "little people" etc affect me? I do think she opened the door for me to feel things I would have ignored. So I have been blessed or cursed with ESP since I was young. The interesting thing all of my "feelings " turned out to be warranted.

    After my husband died he came to me often in dreams. His face always in shadow but I recognized him. And once he touched me soon after his internment and twice he appeared to me ..in person ..although again his face was in shadow.These were not dreams since it was daylight each time and I had no sense of being asleep or having dozed off. My feeling has always been there is more to life than what we see. I think we often deny it for fear of being thought a bit wierd and for some I think they fear it . Perhaps Ruth feared any feelings she might have had denied them.

    So it is easy for me to accept all of the "feelings" expressed in this book. I find all of the characters interesting and while my expierence has not been with persons of oriental background ( save my Japanese sister in law) I can see a resemblence in action and behavior to some people I have met in my life.

    I cant fault anyone for trying to get their own way because I feel most of us do that in one way or the other. My own mother who was really ahead of her time in her thinking was never appreciated when I was young. I felt she just couldnt understand me...Of course the bottom line she understood me well ..there were times when I thought I must be adopted and my "real" mother would have been different.

    All of the characters in this book ring true to me. In one way or another I have met them in "real life". When we understand or at least begin to understand what shaped the important people in our life we learn to love and forgive ourselves and to understand the reason why other people behave the way they do. AND then we forgive them.

    Tomorrow my oldest daughter and her husband arrive for four days and I have been making a BIG effort to get things ready for them ..since they also bring their two dogs. I have enough food for an army and Sun the whole family will have a get together..The rest of the my children live locally so it special when we can all get together. Friday I have promised to take a friend in for an eye exam and bring him back since he will have drops in his eyes and cant drive home. I am going to take my copy of The Bonesetter's Daughter with me and see if I can relate to your comments. As I have said I loved this book. and have felt I knew the characters ..even if their life was different from any expierence of mine. How they dealt with the things that happened to them and survived them to me is the real story .

    Here it is almost time for me to read the next book for September ..YIKES I will be glad when summer is over, the tourists are gone so the roads arent quite so crowded and hopefully the weather will cool and the rains will come and I will find myself with some TIME to really particpate. anna

    Lorrie
    August 14, 2002 - 09:36 pm
    Dear barbara S.

    It's heartwarming to see you posting even when you are hurting, and by now I hope you are recovering from your accident nicely.

    I was gratified that you felt the same way I did on reading those last few words in this particular section, just before "Change." This is absolutely wonderful writing, the words "When it is dark she says this to me in a clear voice I have never heard. She speaks in the language of shooting stars." (page 200) Beautiful.

    Judywolfs:

    I like your statement about the likeness of superstition and spiritual awareness. Good thought.

    Anna Fair:

    Your mention of a family reunion sounds very warm and loving. I am happy for you, and even if you haven't read all that much again, at least you did go through this book once before, right? It's good to see your nme here.

    Stephanie has also noted the lack of any coherent or substantial male characters in this book. As in many of Amy Tan's books. Have any of you any ideas as to why this seems to be the case?

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 14, 2002 - 09:43 pm
    On Friday we will proceed on to the third section of the book, from the part titled "Change" (Page 201-paperback) up to "Characters" on page 304.

    I urge you all to join in with whatever questions you would like to put forth. This is a group discussion, after all, I don't like to see it seem too much like a classroom. Don't hesitate to ask!

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 15, 2002 - 05:05 am
    Look at this SUPER stuff I stumbled on last night when reading a book called...er...BOOK? hahahahah

    It is FULL Of bones and Chinese writing!

    It says, by the way, I was struck with this:



    Writing is a way of storing information and passing it on to other people who are some distance away in space or time.


    Neat, huh? Especially in the light of the communication thing here, but LOOK LOOK

    Chinese early writing: slats and bones This is under the heading Writing with Signs, developing language.

    ON the left we can see w wooden slat which 2000 years ago Chinese government officials used to keep records.

    The strange looking thing next to it is a bone. It says under Fortune Telling: "Some of the earliest Chinese writing is an attempt to predict the future. A heated poker was applied to an animal bone to make it crack. A diviner interpreted the cracks, in the same way that people read tea leaves today. The predictions about rainfall or the harvest or moving house were then carved into the bone, which can still be read today.

    The larger thing is also a bone under Preferred Materials. It ways the best writing materials are those that are cheap, easily available, and do not need any special preparation. At first the Chinese wrote on wood, bamboo and animal bones. Later they used lengths of silk and paper (which was invented by Cai Lun in 105 AD and kept secret for 700 years).

    Next we have an inkwell It says "Calligraphers mixed their own ink by rubbing the solid ink stick into a few drops of water on the ink stone." Above is a series of Chinese characters showing how each part is added and noting that Wang Xizhi spent 15 years perfecting the "YONG", which is the first character shown here and the model character for practicing the five basic strokes. It means "eternal."

    And last, we hear of brushes in Calligraphy, but look at this, they don't look like any brush I've ever seen: Calligraphy brushes

    "The Chinese calligrapher makes graceful flowing strokes with a brush made of animal hair tied together with a silk thread. It is held in a hollow bamboo tube. Chinese children have to spend a lot of time copying characters before they can write quickly and accurately."

    From BOOK by Karen Brookfield, a marvelous DK Eyewitness production also showing how books are stitched, bound and assembled.

    And finally did you see Nova the other night on the Chinese village and the bridge? I thought in watching it how fathomless the Chinese culture and traditions really are, how well Tan portrays the clash with modern culture, and how glad I am to be reading this book!

    ginny

    annafair
    August 15, 2002 - 06:13 am
    YES I did read the book.. loved it. frankly I am glad this book is more about women then men. AND I think women are more interesting. For the most part in books and in real life men lead lives outside their feelings. Since feelings are what makes women women ( as a rule)I have always found stories about women more interesting.

    Most adventure stories are about men ..and I love them too but I can relate to stories about women.After all I have been a daughter, a sister,wife, aunt, niece, cousin,mother and grandmother. Amy Tan I am sure is drawing on her life as well as the lives of women she has known. All mothers and daughters have conflicts. Mothers would like thier daughters to be like themselves to take advantage of things they have learned. And daughters want to make their own decisions and do things their way. I always loved my mother but as I have said it took me years to appreciate her for her wisdom and understanding. AND I can laugh when I see this in my own family. My oldest daughter is now fifty and we have a very good relationship for years but it is only in the last year we really, really get along. By that I mean she no longer thinks if I suggest something I am being critical and I welcome that ...

    My youngest who is now a harried mother of two ..8 and 6 now appreciates the fact I told her YOU DONT HAVE TO DO IT ALL.

    Fortune telling and signs were always significant to the Chinese culture. Every culture has something similiar. Maybe they are called wives tales but when you think about how little they knew about their world it makes sense. At least they were trying to understand that world. Wouldnt we all like to be told our future? especially if it says we are going to be happy, find true love, travel, find wealth etc

    A Chinese gentleman read my palm when I was about 18 and the funny thing ..what he said came true. But I think like astrology most of it is just a good guess and if it turns out to be true it is merely chance not a surety.

    TOMORROW I TAKE MY BOOK TO THE DOCTOR with my friend and reread to page 304 ..so hopefully my next comments will be more about the story and less about me. anna

    Lorrie
    August 15, 2002 - 09:10 am
    GINNY, THAT IS FABULOUS! It's exactly like Tan describes the way the Lui family made ink, and remember on page 182 where Precious Auntie is telling LuLing about her "turtle" bone:

    "I have a bone, probably from a turtle," she told me "My father almost ground this up for medicine, but then he saw there was writing on it." She turned the bone over and I saw strange characters running up and down"....................

    I missed that Nova program, sounds great.

    Those calligraphy brushes look more like pencils, don't they?

    Bones, bones, human bones,, dragon bones, Ankle bone, Connected to the thigh bone, connected to the leg bone, connected to the hip bone, da da de dum, Praise the Lord!

    Lorrie

    judywolfs
    August 15, 2002 - 09:46 am
    Ginny thanks for the links in your post #152 - It's so interesting to actually see the bones! Somehow I pictured oracle bones as being about the size and shape of an egg, not actually bone shaped. Tell us about the Chinese bridge and village on Nova, I didn't see the show, does it fit in with our discussion?

    Hallie & Lorrie & Faith & Anna, how right you are about our Irish heritages! The fortune telling, the visits by people who have died, the good and bad luck portents...But are they really superstitions? I just don't think so, they feel much more like treasured beliefs, teachings, memories and truths to me. Drop over to the discussion on strange & unusual happenings if you have a chance, and notice that some incidents and beliefs that Amy Tan describes in her book are alive and well right here at Sr.Net!

    Oh, and Barbara - yes, how beautiful for LuLing to tell how she knows her mother loves her >>>> "When it is dark, she says this to me in a clear voice I have never heard. She speaks in a language of shooting stars."<<<< I too was very touched and impressed by that expression. Hey, has anybody else noticed that shooting stars are all over this book!

    BaBi
    August 15, 2002 - 11:58 am
    Barbara, hope your arm is better. You made an interesting comparison of the relationship between the two sets of mother/daughter. I wonder if LuLing's view of mothering may have been affected by the fact that as a small child she did not know Precious Auntie was her mother. The one she called Mother was much older and very harsh and critical. Precious Auntie supported "Mother's" criticism, and tried to make it easier for LuLing, by telling her that this was a sign of love. She told her that her "Mother" would not criticise her if she did not love her and want her to be perfect. Even tho' LuLing learned the truth much later, I think it would have been hard to overcome the impressions of those earlier years. I believe psychologists now say that what is learned in the first five years is pretty well ingrained. ...Babi

    HarrietM
    August 15, 2002 - 01:02 pm
    Lorrie, I thought those brushes looked like pencils too...along with a nice chunk of chocolate to sweeten the way for a heavy term paper or writing job? Were those really calligraphy brushes. Ginny? I've been trying to read the upside down writing near the ends of the "brushes," but no luck. If there were an "H" on the chocolatey-looking stuff, standing for "Hershey", I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

    I see shooting stars all over the book also. It seems to me that what is being lit up is Ruth's Chinese heritage. Is Ruth a surrogate for author Amy Tan, and is this book a loving attempt to reconcile and make peace for her character Ruth, with the superstitious, maddening aspects of her mother that made her childhood so difficult? Ruth never had time for the documents that her mother wants her to read. Ruth is more attuned to American and Western ways than to those of the East. Ghostly curses sound like nonsense to her...but as the story progresses through the eyes of LuLing in China, our understanding of the rants and raves of the older LuLing begins to increase...and so will Ruth's? Seems to me Amy Tan had to love her characters in Immortal Heart to tell their story so tenderly.

    What a great point, Babi. LuLing thought her aunt was really her mother and she was not treated with the same regard as her "sister,'" GaoLing. This was a cool and rejecting relationship.

    Harriet

    Hallie Mae
    August 15, 2002 - 01:08 pm
    Ginny, that was fascinatting information. Although the brushes do look like pencils, they must "spread" to make such thick lines.

    Since Luling came from a village, she retains all the ways of old China. Do you think people in the larger cities are more influenced by the Communist government's strictures and have lost much of the old ways of thinking?

    Hallie Mae

    Barbara S
    August 15, 2002 - 04:52 pm
    You are undoubtedly right about Lu Ling's relationship with her de facto mother who probably acted as a mother role model for her. She probably had the image that this was how mothers behaved towards their non so favoured daughters. It must have created confusion in the young Lu Ling's mind. But I do wonder why that impression would be so strong that she replicated much of that behaviour towards Ruth when she eventually knew that Precious Auntie was her real mother. Do you have any enlightment on that????lol Human beings are such complex creatures.

    I am still very limited by a painful arm, but itis gradually improving.

    Barbara

    Lorrie
    August 15, 2002 - 06:26 pm
    Barbara, we all do hope your arm improves with time, we're just glad you are still able to post here.

    Yes, one would wonder why, knowing who her real mother was, LuLing/s behaviour to her own daughter seems repetitious. Wouldn't you think this would have a bearing on their relationship?

    I am very amused by all the uproar about The Peking Man. And I don't think I'm supposed to see any humor here. But it seems to me there's an awful lot on Monkey bones, human bones, dragon bones, and apparently this whole discovery of the Peking Man is quite controversial, from what i have been reading. Anyway, in this part all kinds of bones definitely do play a part.

    Anyway, here's some interesting stuff about The Peking Man. Apparently Amy Tan placed her locale right near where they were.

    Peking Man

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 16, 2002 - 04:54 am
    Judy, I thought the NOVA series which apparently (I only saw the last 15 minutes) set out to prove a centuries old mystery on how a bridge was supposedly constructed, which ended with their constructing it again and bringing two oxen from each side to the center, seemed, and I have to say seemed, to indicate that all the old myths and legends and superstitions of China might have some basis in actual fact. The program does a neat bit of contrasting modern technology and people and dress with these Chinese peasants and seems to dwell more on the ageless Chinese legends, I thought, what little bit I saw of it, it was quite telling, (at any rate it made me appreciate the book more).

    hahaha




    Barbara, I've somehow missed your arm!!??!! and I hope you feel better soon, so glad to see you typing, you said The pressures put upon Ruth to comply with her mother's demands, the accusations that Ruth's behavior might lead to her death "you want I die", "I die soon... and the suicide attempt must have been a very difficult life for a child, especially a child growing up in the conflict of two cultures

    You know what? I don't want to jump the gun but read our new sections last night and I believe a lot of my own questions were answered here, the main one being the communication problem. And why LuLIng keeps saying I die soon, and why she threw herself from the window.

    Or at least I have some of my own questions answered.

    I'll wait till we get into this new section to say more, quite breathtaking, I thought.


    Harriet, according to the book, those are calligraphy brushes, I can see why it takes 15 years to master one letter, myself. Hahanah I think Hallie Mae is right on the spreading out thing, but here's the writing on each letter:

    Top Letter: (OH! The scanner left off the very "first stroke," which is the little hat on the top?)

    So the top letter you see says simply second stroke (looks like a backward C with a hat?)

    The text running to the left says
    Chinese characters are made up of as many as 26 different strokes which would be written in the correct order. This character called Yong, which means "eternal," is the model character for practicing the five basic strokes. A famous calligrapher called Wang Xizhi is said to have spent 15 years perfecting his Yong.


    The writing to the left of the second letter which you see says third stroke, referring to the thing sticking out on the left.

    And the writing on the next letter points to the arm like thing on the right and says fourth stroke.

    And on the bottom the leg on the right says Fifth stroke, and as I read this again, I believe, and I'm glad you called attention to this, that it's the BOTTOM letter, which took 5 strokes to perfect, that's called Yong or "eternity."

    I'm glad you raised that point I would have thought the backwards C with hat was eternity, you can see we'll be kicking thru Eternity! Hahahaha




    Lorrie, thank you for the Peking Man, I see it's not quite as old as it was rumored to be, I LOVE a book, a good novel, in which I learn something new, and I sure am in this one.




    Babi, you said, But I do wonder why that impression would be so strong that she replicated much of that behaviour towards Ruth when she eventually knew that Precious Auntie was her real mother.

    For me this is explained in this next section, I can't wait to hear if you all agree!

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    August 16, 2002 - 01:43 pm
    Lorrie, thank you for the Peking Man info. I've been trying to find out the date when it was first discovered - trying to "timeline" when Luling grew up in China.

    Ginny, I think I saw a portion of that show . We have Boston, Worcester and Providence RI PBS stations so hopefully it will be repeated on one of them and I will pay attention this time.

    Guess I can't comment on the next section until tomorrow.

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 16, 2002 - 02:17 pm
    Wow! In this segment coming up, we have a morass of good stuff, all kinds of answers to your questions, Ginny. I'm going to put them up in the heading, okay?

    When you read ahead, on page 187 (paperback) there is a very involved description of the process by which the Bonesetter treats some of his patients, a process that involves pulleys, ropes, and a pallet of rattan. Reading it closely, it doesn't seem all that much different from our modern day version of setting bones.

    I assume by now that we have all read these next pages, so it does not seem improper to discuss some parts now. What was your reaction when you first read of the Coffinmaker, Chang? Did you have a sense of foreboding when he was introduced in these chapters? Did you think that we would be hearing more of this abusive bully?

    Lorrie

    BaBi
    August 16, 2002 - 03:39 pm
    Shucks, now I wish I had watched that NOVA program. The blurb on it said something about an attempt to replicate the building of an ancient bridge in China. I wasn't really interested watching someone build a bridge. Now it appears there was a good deal more to the story than that.

    Lorrie, I immediately disliked Chang! Of course, I didn't know in the beginning that he was going to be such a nemesis for LuLing and her family. I would have quite cheerfully have seen him in one of his own coffins. ...Babi

    Ginny
    August 17, 2002 - 06:15 am
    This question in the heading is excellent, I think and I will be quite interested in your answers:

    Why does Precious Auntie keep this information from LuLing for so long?

    Why does any family attempt to keep secrets? I know some families who have kept secrets for half a century. It's back to the commmunication thing again, it's fairly clear from this section that the photo IS Precious Auntie, the family attempted to cover all of it up by adopting the baby and calling her sister "Mother," when she was not, but even as an Aunt "Mother's" behavior when Precious Auntie dies toward the LuLIng, sending her off to an orphanage, seems pretty callous, to me. Can't understand it.

    Precious Auntie (note the name) thrust burning resin in her own mouth to express her grief, a sort of dramatic type of thing of self immmolation, but she lived. And so she spent her life, a truly tragic figure, caring for her daughter and trying to protect her. The fact that she could not speak again comes roaring to the front and center when she writes down her story but LuLing does not read it all.

    In a tragic misunderstanding worthy of Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra, Precious Auntie, thinking she has been rejected when she finally got her secret out, kills herself.

    Later on, when LuLIng sees Ruth's own "I wish you would go ahead and kill yourself and stop talking about it," she throws herself from the window. Now that we know her background, this does not seem surprising, it's a pattern of dramatic gestures in this family, it's what she grew up with. She may even be burdened still with the manner of her mother's suicide.

    Again, the written word is being used as a substitute for communication, Ruth suffers silences every August 12, and the reader has the somewhat unsettling feeling that Ruth and Tan are communicating to US through this book. I have a distinctly uneasy feeling here of underlying great depression, guilt, heavy burdens, and anxiety, it's a fascinating book, more tightly written than it first appears, I'm very interested to hear what connection can be made to the August 12 silences and the other themes of lack of or miscommunication in the book and the consequences.

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    August 17, 2002 - 08:29 am
    There is so much to discuss in this section, I'll just focus on one aspect of the family relationships.

    Precious Auntie lived with the family of Baby Uncle, her husband to be, who was killed before they were officially married. Mother was forced into claiming Precious Auntie's baby as her own, which she obviously resented. She wasn't the head of the household as yet because the grandmother was still alive. and, according to the story, was still afraid to get rid of her after grandmother died because she thought she heard the grandmother speaking when she was in the privy. (very eathy people with their jokes, ha ha) As soon as Precious Auntie committed suicide, Mother sent Luling to the ophanage.

    I think the orphanage period was the best time of Luling's life, even before she met and fell in love with Kai Jing. This section contains a charming love story with a tragic ending .

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 17, 2002 - 08:43 am
    Ginny says:

    ..... "it's a pattern of dramatic gestures in this family, it's what she grew up with. She may even be burdened still with the manner of her mother's suicide..........."

    How true! and then there is the part about Mother's throwing Precious Auntie's body over the cliff--What a cruel woman she was! Another melodramatic gesture.

    I thought Tan's description of LuLing's search for the body down in the place known as the End of the Word was heartbreaking. (Page243-44)

    And what did you think of the behaviour of LuLing's sister, GaoLing? I thought she came through as very compassionate, and it seems to me as though she was the only person in that whole compound who actually cared what happened to LuLing.

    BaBi
    August 17, 2002 - 09:39 am
    GINNY, I suspect Precious Auntie was allowed to stay and care for her baby only with the understanding that she would keep her true identity secret. By claiming Luling as the child of the eldest uncle and aunt, they hid the stigma of illegitimacy.

    Ginny, you wrote:"Again, the written word is being used as a substitute for communication.." Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it was used as an alternate form of communication? Written communication is an integral part of this story, from Precious Auntie, to LuLing, to Ruth. And somewhere, perhaps in a book review, I read that Tan regards the written word as the preserver of memories. (Not an exact quote, but the general idea.) Think of the memories, the family lore, that would have been lost forever if they had not been written down and preserved. ...Babi

    HarrietM
    August 18, 2002 - 07:17 am
    If all had gone well, LuLing could have lived her whole life without knowing there was any stigma attached to her birth. Perhaps, that's why Granny ordained that she should be kept ignorant of her true circumstances. The ultimate aim, I imagine, was to ensure LuLing a good marriage and a prosperous life.

    Granny saw Luling as what she actually was: a grandchild of the house, the only blood-line offspring of her beloved dead son, and a niece to "Mother." "Mother" saw LuLing as a burden who forced her into deceptions about the birth of her true daughter, GaoLing. Everything broke apart when Precious Auntie revealed the truth to the Changs.

    But why?

    Precious Auntie understood the true purpose of the marriage offer. All this disaster stemmed from Precious Auntie's innocent boast to the brutal elder Chang so many years ago, that her father, the Bonesetter, had entrusted her with the whereabouts of the bones he gathered for medicines. Even into the second generation, Chang still sought that secret, and now the answer to the location of the Cave of the Bones lay with LuLing, the daughter of Precious Auntie.

    LuLing's prospective young husband might actually be kind and innocent of malice, but Precious Auntie knew that LuLing would actually fall under the authority and domination of her new father-in-law, the cruel and unscrupulous Chang. Precious Auntie acted from the fear that LuLing was entering into a life of abuse and danger.

    Ginny pointed out the tragedy of the misunderstanding between Precious Auntie and LuLing after Precious Auntie revealed herself as LuLing's mother. LuLing never finished reading her mother's documents...Precious Auntie thought she was deliberately rejected...so very, very sad....Everything begins to come together now.

    LuLing screamed words of rejection to her mother and felt responsible when her true mother, Precious Auntie, killed herself. In modern day America, whenever her own daughter Ruth criticizes or rejects her, LuLing wails, "You want I die?!" LuLing does not tolerate hard words or rebellion from her own daughter, Ruth since it was those very things that led to such tragedy in her own youth. The intimate association between criticism of a parent and bad fortune or death is too frightening for LuLing to tolerate?

    Harriet

    Ginny
    August 18, 2002 - 07:21 am


    I agree, Babi, (Harriet, wonderful points, we were posting together) an alternate form, I was very startled in reading BOOK to find that music is also considered a form of communication, had not thought of that, and now what with Tan preserving all these wonderful stories, which I have no doubt (do you all?) are based on some fact somewhere, we can all share it.

    It makes you want to run out and write, doesn't it? hahahaahha

    But every family has strange stories, strange aunts and strange doings. And I think they explain why we are who we are today, after all, you generally tend to repeat your past unless you make a conscious effort to change.

    Faith, I hope you're still here, what stands out for you about the book after all this long time?

    I wonder what any of us would say to that?

    So at this point WHAT is the August 12 silence to symbolize or in memory of or mean? I wonder?

    By the way if you wonder where our Meg went to, she's had oral surgery, is temporarily computerless (we all know how that feels) and has been in a car wreck, so she's been a busy girl, I hope she returns here soon.

    Lorrie mentions Mother throwing Precious Auntie off the cliff and how heartless it was, I think "Mother" is a pretty heartless person all around, imagine forcing your sister, as Babi says, to remain because of your own embarrassment, as a virtual slave or handmaiden.

    I personally laughed out loud over Mother's...er....digestive problems caused by Granny's Ghost, served her right and I would give the modern equivalent but will hold back out of modesty, brick enters into it, tho.

    Hilarious. No wonder the Chinese are so superstitious, you'd think that Mother would be more afraid of Precious Auntie, did you love the bit about the Ghost Catcher? When you live in a world such as that, it must be VERY difficult to interpret all the signs, so the ghost catcher was a fake, so....er...where is Auntie?




    The bit about LuLIngs communicating with Precious Auntie is heartbreaking, how many times have you seen that in real life? Even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's son, according to Basil Rathbone's autobiography which I am reading, thought he communicated with his dead father, and Rathbone believed it too.

    GUILT is a very powerful thing, LuLing felt guilt over her failure to read all of Precious Auntie's writings, causing her death, that's pretty hard to deal with, and, when you think about it, shows somewhat of a lack of character in LuLing for not realizing her adolescent daughter's I wish you WERE dead as just that, an adolescent fit, but I feel for her, in her "maybe I die soon," and her throwing self from the window, this is a bunch of very guilty sad women here.

    Unusually sad, to me?

    ginny

    HarrietM
    August 18, 2002 - 07:30 am
    If all had gone well, LuLing could have lived her whole life without knowing there was any stigma attached to her birth. Perhaps, that's why Granny ordained that she should be kept ignorant of her true circumstances. The ultimate aim, I imagine, was to ensure LuLing a good marriage and a prosperous life.

    Granny saw Luling as what she actually was: a grandchild of the house, the only blood-line offspring of her beloved dead son, and a niece to "Mother." "Mother" saw LuLing as a burden who forced her into deceptions about the birth of her true daughter, GaoLing. Everything broke apart when Precious Auntie revealed the truth to the Changs.

    But why?

    Precious Auntie understood the true purpose of the marriage offer. All this disaster stemmed from Precious Auntie's innocent boast to the brutal elder Chang so many years ago, that her father, the Bonesetter, had entrusted her with the whereabouts of the bones he gathered for medicines. Even into the second generation, Chang still sought that secret, and now the answer to the location of the Cave of the Bones lay with LuLing, the daughter of Precious Auntie.

    LuLing's prospective young husband might actually be kind and innocent of malice, but Precious Auntie knew that LuLing would actually fall under the authority and domination of her new father-in-law, the cruel and unscrupulous Chang. Precious Auntie acted from the fear that LuLing was entering into a life of abuse and danger.

    Ginny pointed out the tragedy of the misunderstanding between Precious Auntie and LuLing after Precious Auntie revealed herself as LuLing's mother. LuLing never finished reading her mother's documents...Precious Auntie thought she was deliberately rejected...so very, very sad....Everything begins to come together now.

    LuLing screamed words of rejection to her mother and felt responsible when her true mother, Precious Auntie, killed herself. In modern day America, whenever her own daughter Ruth criticizes or rejects her, LuLing wails, "You want I die?!" LuLing does not tolerate hard words or rebellion from her own daughter, Ruth, since it was those very things that led to such tragedy in her own youth. The intimate association between criticism of a parent and bad fortune or death is too frightening for LuLing to tolerate?

    How BIZARRE that all of LuLing's family used the ghost of poor Precious Auntie as a scapegoat for the fire that really was a result of human carelessness and panic. I guess they all had some vestiges of guilt toward her...maybe they had felt that way for years? But between dead relatives in caves and fires, and resulting catastrophes, it's easier to see where LuLing got her obsessions about curses now....

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 18, 2002 - 08:24 am
    Here is a very revealing interview that Amy Tan gave, in which she admits a strong attachment to any physical and mental phenomena. Notice the part where she writes about her close friend, Pete. Eerie, to say the least.

    New York Times Interview with Amy Tan

    Lorrie

    HarrietM
    August 18, 2002 - 10:12 am
    That's a fascinating article, Lorrie, and it covers many of the points that we're talking about in your discussion.

    Thanks for providing it for us all.

    Harriet

    Ginny
    August 19, 2002 - 04:16 am
    Many thanks for that article, Lorrie and the very first thing that jumped out at me was "communication!"

    Couldn't believe my eyes, when you read something YOU have your own take on what you see, and it's nice to see it bolstered, especially by no less an authority than the NY Times. Makes no difference, tho, except for a slight frisson of happiness, what the READER gets from a book is what counts, and usually what the reader gets is based on his or her own experience, and we all here have a LOT Of that, ahahah, and we ALL should be confident in our own opinions, even when we disagree, which I hope we do often enough to spark lots of discussion.




    Harriet, I spent a good part of yesterday thinking about this one: How BIZARRE that all of LuLing's family used the ghost of poor Precious Auntie as a scapegoat for the fire that really was a result of human carelessness and panic. I guess they all had some vestiges of guilt toward her...maybe they had felt that way for years?

    I wonder, if you are a person who sees "signs" in everything in life, if you believe in ghosts and as you say are tortured by guilt, then where do you stop? I mean is your entire world, every breath of wind, dictated by the past? It would seem for some sort of healthy balance in your life you'd have to draw the line somewhere? Or you'd go nuts trying to figure out which ancestor was doing what?

    I found it quite interesting that it was the ghost of Granny who ultimately was felt to have stopped up things rather than the one who was so continually mistreated, Precious Auntie. Granny was feared, Precious Auntie was not.

    I liked your take, Harriet on why Precious Auntie went berserk over the Chang thing? Super point! SHE had miscommunicated out of her own boastfulness, that she knew where the bones were, super point, incurring his greed and "causing" the death of her husband (a horse kick??!!??)

    If you tend to see cause and effect in every thing that happens, it would seem that you'd live a life half in and half out of the shadows, I mean I don't see where you can draw the line. At all?

    Interesting on how Tan's own home in San Francisco seems strangely haunted, some people believe in ghosts, some don't.

    Does anybody here know anything about the progression of spirits in Chinese belief? That is, is there a heaven? A hell? Are the ghosts merely unhappy and wandering until they can find a home?

    Is that what WE think ghosts are?

    ginny

    Ginny
    August 19, 2002 - 04:22 am
    This is a super question in the heading, you have to realy think:

    Whose rebellion causes more lasting results?

    hmmmm, what would you say? One caused the death of her mother, pretty darn strong, lasting results, but the other seems to have...what would you say? Affected generations?

    Or...did they both cause...hmmmmm

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    August 19, 2002 - 01:27 pm
    When I clicked on the interview, I got the NY Times Registration page. I filled it out and then tried to find the Amy Tan article - no luck, what am I doing wrong?

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 19, 2002 - 03:24 pm
    Oh, Hallie Mae, I am so sorry! I wish I knew what to tell you, but everybody knows what a dummox I am when it comes to "technical" stuff. Let me see if I can find you a different path.

    Ginny, doesn't it make you proud that you realize you are voicing the same concerns about parts of this book as other "renowned" persons do? I have always said you know just what questions to ask.

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 19, 2002 - 03:35 pm
    Now that we are into Part 2 of this book, I wanted to mention that I find this second part much more interesting than the first. To me it seems that the tone of the first part(set in the present) is at odds with that of Part 2. This is where the author plunges back in time to tell us the story of LuLing.

    It's almost as though we were reading two books from two different heads, and the effect is remarkable. Sometimes jarring, but always fascinating. There's a contrast between the richness of the mother's story and the "thinness" of the daughter's.

    Does anyone else feel this?

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 19, 2002 - 05:29 pm
    I have some catching up to do, so will just go on with the present reading. However in the meantime, I do wonder, taking into account the differences in cultures, if teenage behaviour varies fundamentally very much throughout the world.

    Barbara

    judywolfs
    August 20, 2002 - 10:57 am
    Lorrie said >>>>It's almost as though we were reading two books from two different heads, and the effect is remarkable.<<<<

    Yes, yes, I totally agree. And in the two different books there are so many layers. I find the writing fascinating, intricate and very rich.

    Harriet said >>>>LuLing screamed words of rejection to her mother and felt responsible when her true mother, Precious Auntie, killed herself.<<<< That's true that LuLing felt responsible, but Precious Auntie didn't kill herself because of LuLing's rebelliousness. She did it to save LuLing from marriage into the Chang family. Remember how completely terrified the Changs were when they found out Precioius Auntie was dead?

    So it seems that when LuLing later keeps asking Ruth "You want I die" Maybe she's simply offering to try to save her, not really threatening to punish her. Other places in the book she casually anticipates her own death, seemingly without any qualms at all. I don't think LuLing is afraid of death even a tiny bit. And I think that Precious Auntie's suicide may have actually improved LuLing's life. But poor LuLing - she totally failed at suicide.

    Hallie Mae
    August 20, 2002 - 02:14 pm
    Lorrie, I agree with you, the second part of the book is a more fascinating story, maybe because it is so exotic, a real departure from the way we think and act in this country. I found the self -effacing courtesy exchange, back and forth, between Old Widow Lau and Father interesting., each trying to outdo the other in politeness. (:

    Juldywolfs, that's a really interesting point of view in regard to Precious Auntie's suicide and Luling's seemingly casual way of saying "You want I die?". I like your take on it.

    A book I would recommend if you are interested in this period of time in China is "Moment in Peking" by Lin Yutang. I checked in Barnes & Noble and they do have some copies left. in "old and out of print " books. It is a fascinating novel of a family in China from the early 1900s thru to the 1930s. One little tidbit from the book was a description of a student rebelliion in Tiannamen Square in the 1920s.- just as the students protested there not too long ago.

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 20, 2002 - 03:34 pm
    Hey, Hallie Mae! How interesting, isn't it, that there was a protest in 1920 in the very same Tianamen Square! I'm always impressed with these tidbits of knowledge that our posters come up with. Ginny, for instance, can dig up some of the most amazing stuff!

    What do you all think about the love story? I thought it was quite touching, when they first declared their love, then very amusing when they attempted to consummate that love. Kai Jing seems like such a nice man----I don't even want to consider what's going to happen to him, I haven't gotten that far yet. My heart warms to LuLing's sister, too. She's the one constant in LuLing's life, it seems.

    Barbara, hope you're feeling better!

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    August 20, 2002 - 06:03 pm
    NOVA is on PBS right now right this minute with the 900 year old Chinese bridge! Just started right now!

    ginny

    Lorrie
    August 20, 2002 - 09:16 pm
    Boy, I wish we had the same schedule on PBS that you have, Ginny! I'll keep watching, though. sometimes they have these Nova programs on at a different time.

    Lorrie

    annafair
    August 21, 2002 - 06:07 am
    My oldest daughter and her husband left yesterday after a five day visit..what a hectic time that preceded their arrival ( getting things read for them etc) since they bring their two dogs to add to my dog..you can imagine the chaos..and of course the schedule of activities was constant ..she commented yesterday I seem agitated LOL I guess so..and now I have to get everything ready for company a month from now.

    As a giftee of ESP I understand the supernatural events in this book and even Amy Tan's comment about them. In poetry one of the posters gave us a link to a poet whose poem asked if thinking something made it so ..or happen. That is an interesting idea...I am neither afraid of my dreams and visions or feel that I cant change some for the better ..I just accept that there is more to life than what we can see, feel or hear..

    I am looking right now at my copy of Bonesetters Daughter ..perhaps ? I will have time to re read what I read. I think one thing I have learned from this discussion...I SHOULD NOT READ AHEAD...if I am to contribute to a discussion...anna

    Lorrie
    August 21, 2002 - 07:11 am
    Annafair, your message is a very thoughtful one. When it comes to ghosts, spirits, hallucinations, manifestations, and yes, ESP, I keep a completely open mind. In my opinion there are too many unexplained occurences. And this belief is not limited to Oriental people alone, every ethnic group has its own demons and spirits.

    I think one of the reasons Amy Tan writes so much about these things is that she believes in them herself. I'm looking for one of her interviews where she actually admits to this, unabashedly. I'll see if I can find it.

    Lorrie

    judywolfs
    August 21, 2002 - 12:02 pm
    Does anybody know if Ruth's sand writing used to convey messages from Precious Auntie to LuLing was a common method of spirit communication? I noticed in the book that LuLing encountered it as a girl too - a fortune teller used the same method to tell LuLing's fortune when the Japanese were invading. I wonder if that's what inspired LuLing to try it with Ruth, or if sand writing was more widespread in that time/place?

    Lorrie
    August 21, 2002 - 12:42 pm
    I'm not sure, Judy, it seems as though the two most common ways of telling fortunes is by the calendar method, or the ancient practice of throwing sticks. It might be that sandwriting was common in that particular area at that particular time. Remember how Ruth, after the episode wwith Lance, went to Land's End and weote "Help" in the sand?

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 21, 2002 - 01:28 pm
    This is a tongue-in-cheek essay about Chinese ghosts written by a student in Taiwan in a student newsletter.

    "Concerning Chinese Hopping Ghosts" Study Conducted in Taiwan by Suzanne Thomas

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Chinese honor their dead out of both respect and fear. And for good reason. An unsatisfied soul could become a ghost and make life unbearable. Whether or not the Chinese truly believe in ghosts, they occupy a large part of their imagination, and the hopping ghost (with its recent star appearances on the Hong Kong move scene) is the most popular. Q: What is a hopping Ghost? A: Scientifically speaking, it's an undecayed corpse whose main soul, the po, has not yet left for the other world. Now, a po on the loose in the mortal world is bad news. It turns into an evil spirit. And a po with a corpse to occupy is even worse. It becomes a hopping ghost.

    Q: What makes a hopping ghost hop? A: Many things, but mostly when a homesick corpse, not wanting to be buried in an unfamiliar village, hops home, po and all. In documented cases, the hopping corpse is often accompanied by an entourage of monks, Taoist priests, and mourners. Yin shock makes ghosts hop, too. The yin, as opposed to the yang, is dark, mysterious, and usually out to make trouble. (Cats and the moon are characteristically yin.) Should a fresh corpse somehow come into direct contact with a yin sort of energy, then it reacts, often becoming charged with superhuman powers. And it hops.

    Q: How do you know when you've chanced upon a hopping ghost? A: It's not terribly difficult to tell. Despite the corpse's superhuman energy, rigor mortis does set in, and the joints get stiff enough that it is forced to hop stiffly. According to some reports they have resorted to flying. As for appearances, a hopping corpse usually wears Qing Dynasty burial clothes. As these went out of fashion a hundred or so years ago, the corpses stick out like a sore thumb. And they don't worry too much about personal hygiene either. One hopping ghost stunk so badly that one whiff killed a relative and knocked another out cold. Some hopping ghosts are uglier than others. Some have tounges that hang down to their chest or eyeballs that aren't too firmly attached to their sockets. But all hopping ghosts have unusually long fingernails that are their most lethal weapon (especially being on the end of stiff outstretched arms). Hopping ghosts keep best in coffins or caves. They're not much for sunbathing. In fact, the sun's first rays are enough to stop a hopping ghost dead in its tracks.

    Q: What should I do if I run into a hopping ghost? A: Don't breathe. Hopping ghosts detect humans by smelling their breath. The old clove-of-garlic-keeps-the-ghost-away trick will not work here. You could try pasting a yellow and red Chinese death blessing on its forehead. This will quiet many unsettled souls. In the event that you don't have the above handy, just whip out any eight-sided Taoist mirror, a straw broom, long-grained rice, or just a few drops of fresh chicken blood. In a few seconds the corpse will be hopping scared.

    Q: Just how dangerous are hopping ghosts? A: Well, lethal. Normally the hopping ghosts hops forward until it has gouged the victim's neck and choked him/her to death. This is not a pleasant way to go. In one other case, the hopping corpse preferred to plop down on sleeping people's heads thereby smothering an entire hotel full of guests.

    Q: What can I do to get rid of pesky hopping ghosts? A: There's only one way to do it, and that is to burn them, coffin and all."

    Lorrie

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    banshee@resort.com

    Ginny
    August 21, 2002 - 01:51 pm
    Assuming you can get them to hop back in the coffin in the first place? hahaahah What a HOOT Lorrie, it really had me going there, hahahahaah

    Gee whiz!

    Judy what a super point on the sand writing, I love all the things brought up here and yes, Lorrie, it's sooo sweet when your own hunch turns out to be right. I'm really intrigued with those of you who see another voice or writer in this section, it did take off, no joke.

    I had to tape the show last night on the bridge but hope to watch it sometime today.

    Sand writing, unlike other writing is whisked away, it's kind of ephemeral, here's some for YOU!!

    Hold the left side of your mouse down and drag it across the space below these words!


    Whooooooo! Here is some ghost writing to suit the occasion! hahaahah

    hhahahaa, ANYWAY!

    What are "eyes like chickens?" "Sister Yu had one said that you could tell which girls in the lanes were prostitutes because they had eyes like chickens." (page 281, pb)

    What are eyes like chickens? We have raised chickens for years and if the last one had not died I'd go look, I don't recall anything strange, what are eyes like chickens?

    I liked this: "What does a person need to say? What man, woman or child does he need to say it to? What do you think was the very first sound to become a word, a meaning?"

    I betcha it wasn't ma, I betcha it was more like gimmie, what do you think??

    OR maybe "no!"

    But that's not maybe what needs to be said, I love all the ideas in thief book!

    This part here? "A person must think about her intentions, how her ch'i flowed from her body into her arm, through the brush, and into the stroke," (page 269) sounds a lot like my cello teacher, bless his heart, trying to convey ART to this clumsy philistine, but I'm TRYING!! I have the mental desire, it's just that physically the rest of me is not cooperating?

    hahahaha

    This is good writing here: "If we ran to a lookout point on the hill, we could see to the far end of the flat basin, and there was the black car, running along the narrow road, sending up streams of dust." (page 268). I can see that as clearly as if it's a picture, can't you?

    I need help with this question in the heading How is LuLing affected by the family curse?

    Somebody refresh my memory: what IS the family curse?

    Ling Ginny

    Hallie Mae
    August 21, 2002 - 02:25 pm
    Lorrie, that was very interesting, Amy Tan's "The Hundred Secret Senses " has much more "ghostly" scenes. The half sister is described in a review as "Kwan has yin eyes--she can see ghosts "

    I'm confused about the curse. I thought it was when the Peking man was discovered , the family decided that the bones were really those of their ancestors whose spirits or ghosts would haunt them until the bones were returned to the cave. But then looking back, Precious Auntie's suicide and her appearance in a dream precipitated all the terrible events the family suffered.

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 21, 2002 - 03:28 pm
    Remember when Precious Auntie and her father, the Bonesetter, went searching for bones?

    On page 201-202 (paperback) Precious Auntie tells of the dream she has of her father the Bonesetter warning her about the bones he had taken from the cave and given to her. "The bones you have are not from dragons," he tells her. They are from our own clan, the ancestor who was crushed in the Monkey's Jaw. And because we stole them he has cursed us."...............

    This is spooky stuff!

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 21, 2002 - 03:41 pm
    I have a question that has been bothering me. The publisheres made such a point out of pointing out the bits about the Peking Man, but I fail to see the relevance here, do you? Outside of the obvious comparison to bones, bones, and more bones, I don't really see what that has to do with LuLing's personal journey.

    What really happened to The Peking Man? According to the book, the remains were uprooted by the Japanese and lost somewhere at sea, or am I mistaken? Amy Tan makes a point of mentioning that those bones were from many different sources, not just one. And wasn't there some controversy about the origin?

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 21, 2002 - 05:31 pm
    Loved it. The explanation of the Hopping Ghost.

    This tongue in cheek attitude towards mysticism seems to be common amongst the younger generation of Chinese according to my daughter who has a number of Chines work colleaugues and friends. My young life was surrounded by good old Irish fey: fortune tellers, ESP, ghosts, so many superstitions, lucky charms and so on. Even children's stories were heavily loaded with magic.

    Am catching up with the reading now that I am able to type again without too much discomfort. However I feel that it is too late now for my comment on reading to 8/23 as there has been so much thoughtful analysis of the text and the characters.

    Barbara

    Faithr
    August 21, 2002 - 09:42 pm
    The Hopping Ghost certainly sounds like the Vampire stories! in parts of it anyway. This is what young people do, spoof the archaic believes and myths, the "superstitions" of the ancestors. I am having a good time remembering this wonderful book as you go along in your discussion. I have nothing much to contribute as I have that Senior block and dont remember books much past 3 months if that.

    I do know that I have read all Tan's books and they are all biographical to a large extent. The wonderful language she uses to bring us the picture of her ancestors and their children in this country can't be admired too much. I can re read these books just for the language and mind pictures I get. Faith

    Barbara S
    August 21, 2002 - 11:26 pm
    hahahaha, I can relate to those Senior moments of yours. Isn't it awful when you read a page and have to read it all over again to see what it is that you have already read?

    Barbara

    Ginny
    August 22, 2002 - 05:22 am
    That's the truth, thank you all for reminding me what the curse WAS, if this is puzzling and sort of overwhelming for US, think what it must be to live in such a magical world with so many images swirling around one, always?

    I would have a lot of trouble separating out the "signs?" The portents and omens. I realize that supposedly it's a mark of the less sophisticated mind to pay attention to such things, but I'm not sure that's true?

    Ghosts, spirits, signs, if you read that article Lorrie put in here, apparently Tan herself thinks her own house has some spirits present and I know a LOT of people who accept the notion of ghosts without batting an eye (and an equal number who pooh pooh the very thought).

    where do you draw the line with omens and signs?

    (Anna, that's a poem! ahhaaha LOVED your tomato poem in the Poetry Section of the Books yesterday, there is NOTHING like a ripe tomato!)

    Signs made more important when your own mother believes in them so profoundly.

    When you cheat and say Precious Auntie is saying XXX.

    Tell me something? Why is RUTH the medium for Precious Auntie's pronouncements?

    I just thought of something? Up till now we've accepted the idea that Ruth is LuLing's translator, right? She translates the world to LuLing?

    OK, tell me this? Ruth can barely READ Chinese, the Chinese that her mom writes? So how come RUTH it the one interpreting for Precious Auntie, who, presumably speaks no English and could more readily say what she wanted to LuLing herself in signs, etc?

    Seems to me that Ruth here would be the one who needed the translation from the spirit world, not LuLing, did that occur to anybody else?

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    August 22, 2002 - 01:38 pm
    I have the hardcover book, on pages 76 &77 Ruth's first started to answer her mother's questions with the sand tray. When Luling read the word "Doggie" that Ruth wrote to try to get her mother to give her a dog, Luling was convinced that Precious Auntie was trying to reach her since "Doggie" was what she called her. She told Ruth to close her eyes and think about Precious Auntie. Here's where it gets creepy, Ruth "sees" a lady with long hair to her toes. Pressed by her mother to answer her questions, Ruth writes a Chinese character that means "mouth" which Luling believes refers to mouth of the mountain. Ruth is very shaken by this episode as she does not know how to write Chinese characters. I believe this is the only time that Ruth used a Chinese character and where did that knowledge come from???

    "ghoulies and ghosties and long legged beasties and things that go bump in the night."

    Hallie Mae

    Lorrie
    August 22, 2002 - 06:31 pm
    Now that we have come to the very poignant end of the marriage between LuLing and Kai Jing, a truly bittersweet romance that is doomed when the Japanese invade. Actually, this is the first time in the book that Tan has written a sympathetic portrait of one of her male characters. Kai Jing is a remarkable man, indeed! One can easily see why LuLing fell in love with him'

    On Saturday we will go on with LuLing's travels and ordeals. This past section has been a wonderful, invigorating tale, and I am in awe of the author who can keep us so immersed in a book.

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 22, 2002 - 06:55 pm
    The Chinese characters' dependence on ghosts, curses and all manner of other superstitions, meanwhile, may be just a hokey way to get through the day, much like our American self-help credo, but artistically, at least, it makes for much better material. Wouldn't you agree?

    Here's an interesting note. Remember when we were conjecturing about whose picture that is on the jacket? Well, this is from an interview given by Amy Tan in 2001:

    "The book's cover -- the color of parchment paper and gold dust, with a strong young woman looking directly into the camera -- actually depicts Amy Tan's maternal grandmother. She wears a Mona Lisa-like expression, not exactly smiling though her eyebrows are raised enough to add a lightness to her features. And yet, she seems to challenge the viewer with her bold gaze."

    Lorrie

    HarrietM
    August 23, 2002 - 10:28 am
    Lorrie, Hallie Mae, Faith, Barbara, Ginny, everyone...I 'm enjoying this book so much, thanks to you and everyone who has been posting here. I read BONESETTER some time ago, but it didn't impress me as much as I now feel it should have. Lorrie, you've been running a dilly of a discussion. Every time I read someone's post, it adds a new dimension to the book for me. I now find myself evaluating BONESETTER as a fascinating, tightly drawn work.

    Amy Tan has some tender passages in the book where she writes how Precious Auntie had raised LuLing to see what was important. "You have to think about your character," she taught her daughter. "Good manners are not the same as a good heart." When this paragraph appears in the book, LuLing is at the peak of her happiness, She is married to a man she deeply loves and is part of a loving, kind family. Her memories of Precious Auntie's words enhance her joy because it is true, so true. She has married a man with sensitivity and heart and is loved.

    "Mother" came to LuLing's wedding with 'good manners' and a self-serving heart. Mother is the living example of hypocritical display winning out over real tenderness. She is the essence of bad character and an unkind heart...but she has no regrets, and perhaps no real guilt either. Instead she proudly crows how WELL she had raised and treated LuLing, because her abandonment had led to LuLing's marriage into an excellent family. LuLing absorbs this quietly because there is so much in her life for which to be grateful. She and her new husband light incense in front of the photograph of Precious Auntie and enjoy their happiness.

    Amy Tan has a talent for ending the major segments of her book with phrases that resound and echo. She equaled her "shooting stars" image at the end of CHANGE with an even more memorable phrase at the end of CHARACTER. "We are divine, unchanged by time," Kai Jing whispered to LuLing.

    So beautiful...

    I have a paperback edition of BONESETTER with a small photograph of Amy Tan on the inside back cover. Did anyone else see a strong resemblance between Amy and her grandmother's photo on the front cover? I thought that I did.

    Harriet

    BaBi
    August 23, 2002 - 11:14 am
    Whew! I had some catching up to do, after only one day off the Net.

    Ginny, I was caught by your questions about the "chicken eyes". I kept trying to visualize chicken eyes and discover what was meant by saying the prostitute's had chicken eyes. All I could think of was that a chicken cannot look directly at anything. Because of the position of their eyes, they appear to be looking at you sideways. Maybe the prostitutes never looked directly at women passing by, but only out of the corner of their eyes.

    The only problem with that suggestion, is that I have a mental image of most Chinese women (not modern women, of course) modestly avoiding a direct look into another's eyes. The head is slightly lowered and tilted to one and quick glances are taken from the corner of the eyes. So it would be a characteristic of most Chinese women of that day, if that perception is correct.

    Bottom line....I don't know...and why on earth did I get hung up on that anyway?!!! ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 23, 2002 - 11:37 am
    Wonderful post of yours here, Harrie M, and I am grateful that you found time to come here and comment while in the middle of your fabulously famous discussion, "Famous Feuds of History." (Check that one out, readers, it's a terrific discussion with lively posts)

    Yes, I like the way Tan ends her segments, with lyrical beauty, sometimes. She is an author with style and grace, and she excels in creating small scenes in simple strokes. Her descriptions have the qualities of spare paintings: her "studio" is a tiny converted pantry with a window to the bay, and the way she tells of how a love scene fizzles when three ticks are discovered on a bare buttock. Imaginative.

    Babi: Your interpretation of "chicken eyes" and prostitutes makes sense to me. I can't for the life of me think of any other. I know you can hypnotize chickens, does that have amything to do with anything?

    Lorrie

    judywolfs
    August 23, 2002 - 12:26 pm
    After 3 generations isn't it interesting that the family that used to live at "end of the world" moves to "land's end."

    HarrietM
    August 23, 2002 - 01:30 pm
    Judy, that's a very sharp observation. I hadn't thought of that before. It's as if the teen-aged Ruth somehow completed a circle, unknowingly encouraging her mother, LuLing back to her origins at the beginning of the book. Yet the reader doesn't know that their new address has a name that's significant to the plot at that point in the story.

    Amy Tan supplies a lot of cohesive links in a casual way as her book goes on. I surely would have missed that one, Judy, Thanks.

    Oh, yes, Lorrie. That's exactly the phrase I was looking for to describe Tan's writing...lyrical beauty. I got mixed up on the places where my favorite phrases happened though. I think "shooting stars" was at the end of HEART, and "dIvine love" was at the end of DESTINY? I hope I have the right places now.

    Harriet

    Ginny
    August 23, 2002 - 01:48 pm
    HOO HAH! Boy I can tell you all ONE thing, I sure am glad to be reading this with you, LOOK at what all I would have missed!!

    THANK you Megan (Hallie Mae)! Boy that came early on and of course old choo choo Anderson reading like a flash roared right over it, so
    When Luling read the word "Doggie" that Ruth wrote to try to get her mother to give her a dog, Luling was convinced that Precious Auntie was trying to reach her since "Doggie" was what she called her ..."
    so THAT was how Ruth became the diviner from then on. And the interpreter. AND the editor of LuLing's life. Poor LuLing, or Poor Ruth? That's a burden for any child.

    WELL DONE! I am so distracted with all the auxiliary stuff in this book I'm missing the PLOT here!!!!!! What can this mean? Hahahaha

    And you noted too that ".Ruth writes a Chinese character that means "mouth" which Luling believes refers to mouth of the mountain Ruth is very shaken by this episode as she does not know how to write Chinese characters."

    Well now here, based on the explanation of a man taking 15 years to properly write one Chinese character, maybe writing it in the sand produced LuLing to see something that actually wasn't there, I mean HOW can you write a Chinese character in the sand if it takes 15 years to perfect with a brush?

    Maybe it's like Ouija boards which you kind of direct yourself, perhaps?




    Harriet, I agree totally with Lorrie, your Feud discussion is like a house afire, very satisfying, as is this one! I loved your take on how the parts end, believe it or not I had not noticed it (AGAIN!) hahaha Am I reading the same book? But now that you mention it I've gone back and VOILA!


    Lorrie I agree on the broken romance tick thing, isn't that just like life tho, she's a good chronicler of the real amid fantastic and unreal happenings, it's quite a book, very layered, I like it a lot.




    BABI!!!! BABI the Genius, how DID you figure that out! Is that true (asks the woman who kept chickens for 21 years? My last one died last year and I can't go look (aren't you glad because I'd put in CHICKEN photos! Hahahaha)

    Is that TRUE? I must go look this up, I called my husband at work (who was thrilled) and he said he thought the only birds which had eyes set straight ahead were predators like owls and hawks. He said he thought chickens could look straight ahead but the woman who kept them for so long seems to remember they turn their heads to the side to inspect things, and all the photographs in the books seems to show the same thing, they turn their heads sideways and look at you to the side, exactly what Babi SAID!!

    All the photos have the chickens looking at the camera with one side of their head, it's quite striking and I've seen them peering at something too, and they would turn their head to the right or left and look at it that way.

    AMAZING! I'm not thru, I've got tons of books on chicken raising, what a discussion!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahaha

    And JUDY!!!!!!! LOOK at you with the lands end and the irony again WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!

    If we had made a list of the irony in this book it would have stretched a mile, are there any other instances you all have found? Amazing contributions today!!!




    Here's another good question from the heading In your opinion, was it wrong for Precious Auntie to keep this secret from her daughter?

    What do you think here? I'm going to say it hurt Percious Auntie more than it would have any other person, what would have happened if she had told her earlier under less dramatic circumstances? Then the family "honor" would be destroyed and...what were the consequences if she had simiply told the truth? I'm not sure I understand THAT either? And you have to, to answer the question.

    Poor thing, don't you feel for her? What a miserable life. Aren't you glad Tan wrote about her (assuming some of this is true) so generations can feel for her?

    Wonder which parts are true and which not?

    ginny

    Ginny
    August 23, 2002 - 01:51 pm
    OOO there's Harriet again (we were posting together) and more more more, lookit: ". It's as if the teen-aged Ruth somehow completed a circle, unknowingly encouraging her mother, LuLing back to her origins at the beginning of the book."

    Wow!

    ginny

    Lorrie
    August 23, 2002 - 05:12 pm
    Fabulous posts here, and Ginny, I must say today has not been a total waste, Look at all the information I have gleaned here about chickens looking sideways! This computer is a treasure trove of information!! Hahaha

    As we move on now to the final part, I wonder if you have all noticed the "bookend" effect of this novel. The author starts out with the present, segues nicely into the past, and then returns back to the present. What Amy Tan does best is weave mother-daughter relationships, shifting back and forth between two generations. I think her movements in setting and in time periods are perfect, and her ability to tap into the core struggles confronted by all women, regardless of age, nationality or race, is unique.

    Tomorrow I will have some more questions to put in the heading, and we can spend the last days of this month wrapping up this great book.

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 23, 2002 - 05:38 pm
    WAS PRECIOUS AUNTIE WRONG IN WANTING TO KEEP THIS SECRET FROM HER DAUGHTER?

    In today's Western values we would undoubtedly think that a child should be told of her or his real parentage - in most cultures the stigma of birth out of wedlock no longer exists. And the importance of knowing our genetic heritage would not have applied in those days.

    I believe that Precious Auntie must have struggled with the decision as to whether to tell Lu Ling of their relationship (bearing in mind that her values were deeply embedded in another age): She was determined to give Lu Ling a family 'place', protecting her from the stigma of her own illegitimate history as against the impulse to tell the truth to the daughter she loved so much and I imagine a longing for Lu Ling to recognise her as her mother. Sadly when she eventually does this, it is too late. Family and ancestors would have been very important in giving a child an identity,and Precious Auntie gave this to Lu Ling in protecting her from the truth. Look how she nurtured Lu Ling's perception of Mother in her explanations of Mother's attitudes towards her - turning Mother's unpleasant remarks into something positive. This must have been difficult. Even though there is a lot of shame in Precious Auntie's make-up, she is also a very proud lady even while being somewhat dramatic in her actions. she was determined to give her daughter the 'character' and skills to fit her for a better life. How different to the hypocracy of Mother.

    I believe that in protecting Lu Ling from the truth for so long, that this was an illustration of her deep love for her daughter.

    In the last chapters the relationship between the End of the World and Land's End is highlighted, just another skill that Tan has in drawing together the past and the present.

    Barbara

    annafair
    August 24, 2002 - 02:59 am
    This was such a satisfying book to read ...and I came away feeling I knew these people ...even if most of it is fiction ..all of the characters ring so true to me ..I feel in my life time I have met similiar people.

    I understand Ruth's feelings when she inadvertantly becomes the link to Precious Auntie ...I once read tarot cards having been taught to read cards by the woman who was raising one of my good friends. That is a story too!

    I eventually gave it up because I frightened myself with the accuracy of my reading. Years later when my oldest daughter was "into" the same thing I picked up her tarot cards and thought I would just for fun see if I could read them. We were living in Florida while my husband was in Korea and he had just been assigned to a base here in Virginia...it was so odd when I was reading the cards and puzzling since it showed all of us moving to Va except our oldest daughter..the cards did show she would join us later..as it turned out she had a summer job as a dispatcher for a local police department and they asked her to stay on until she had to come here to enter college. Her boyfriend who was going to Georgia Tech agreed to help her drive here ..after taking his things to GT they came here and he stayed for a week before flying back to Georgia..I found a widow with two daughters who rented a room out and our daughter stayed there. It was the LAST TIME I read cards. Too spooky for me.

    AND the thing of reading cards is really in the mind and feelings of the reader. For me I decided I already had ESP but this was different since I was deliberately seeking to see the future. Ruth may have set out to get a dog but she found herself a channel for her mother..

    By the way my Japanese sister in law in the beginning looked at everyone obliquly ..I always felt she felt she would offend anyone by looking directly at them ..is that chicken eyes? As an American we dare to look DIRECTLY at a person!

    Ah well if I still read cards I would try and see if we are going to have cooler and wet weather soon ...anna

    Lorrie
    August 24, 2002 - 08:10 am
    Barbara, so glad your injuries aren't keeping you from posting what I think are some really thoughtful comments. In your post #209 you say"Even though there is a lot of shame in Precious Auntie's make-up, she is also a very proud lady even while being somewhat dramatic in her actions. she was determined to give her daughter the 'character' and skills to fit her for a better life. How different to the hypocracy of Mother.

    I believe that in protecting Lu Ling from the truth for so long, that this was an illustration of her deep love for her daughter."


    It's another indication of the steadfastness of her character, don't you think?

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 24, 2002 - 08:14 am
    Annafair:

    I want to confess that I have always had a secret fascination with tarot cards, even though I have never had a really comprehensive reading. There's something aout those illustrated cards that appeals to the mystery and ghostliness of all of us, don't you think? I have also always wanted to work an Ouija board. Silly, isn't it?

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 24, 2002 - 09:34 am
    Right now I would like to take a breath before we go on with this wonderful book, and tell you all how much I have enjoyed being a member of this gathering. Each of you has contributed immensely in your own way, and I hope will continue to do so. You are fabulous!! It makes me want to go into those "other" bookclub discussions and holler "Look here, Look here, this is how it should be done!"

    Lorrie

    BaBi
    August 24, 2002 - 12:43 pm
    You all give me so much to think about, I hardly know what to think about first!

    On the drawing of Chinese characters: I think you could look at a Chinese character and copy it so that it would be recognizable fairly easily. But a PERFECT brush-stroke Chinese character is a thing of art. One must put precisely the right pressure at the beginning and end of each stroke, causing it change from heavy to light and slender. The positioning must be equally precise and the whole thing must achieve a balance and harmony that only an artist could attain. THAT is no doubt what takes 15 years.

    Anna, I think you made an important point re. the tarot cards when you said the interpretation is really in the mind, the perceptions of the 'reader'. The cards themselves have no powers, no 'magic'. I once received a pack of tarot cards as a gift, and wasn't at all sure how I felt about using them. I found that as I studied a layout, I did formulate connections that turned out to be pretty accurate. But basically I felt about them pretty much as you do, and eventually chose to throw them away.

    On why Precious Auntie did not inform LuLing earlier that she was her true mother: I got the impression somewhere, (and perhaps only in my own mind), that Precious Auntie was allowed to stay only as long as she adhered to the wishes of 'Mother'. I think she would have been thrown out if she had told Luling the truth. And perhaps Luling as well. ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 24, 2002 - 02:51 pm
    On page 314 there is a wonderful description of a fortune teller to whom LuLing and her sister went, who could hold three different brushes in one hand. Too bad his interpretation was so ambiguous.

    Lorrie

    Hallie Mae
    August 25, 2002 - 06:53 am
    Lorrie, I made another valient effort at getting to the NY Times article but only found "The Hundred Secret Senses" interview, which I did enjoy anyhow as I have read the book.

    In regard to Amy Tan's constant use of mother/daughter relationships in her books, I disagree. In "The Hundred Secret Senses' the conflict is between half sisters. What Tan consistently seems to focus on in her books are the differences between Chinese and Chinese American points of view. The practical, pragmatic, down to earth, American side of her evolves into appreciation of the mysterious, mystical Chinese side.

    Harriet, I too thought Amy resembled her grandmother. I would like to say, as you did, that this discussion has been very enjoyable and Lorrie did a spectacular job.

    Ginny, hmmm, you just don't want to believe that maybe Precious Auntie came through and guided Ruth's hand to form that Chinese character, eh?. Coming from a background of people who believed in leprechauns and banshees, I'm totally buying it. ha ha.

    Hallie, Megan

    HarrietM
    August 25, 2002 - 09:03 am
    Isn't it interesting the way LuLing has emerged as a woman of character and strength by the end of the book? When I first started reading, I thought she was a selfish, difficult mother, but now I'm her fan.

    I found such a lot of poignant, gentle moments in the conclusion of the book. I was touched when LuLing began including her daughter, Ruth into her memories of her own distant past. Even in her dementia, her love shone brightly for Ruth. I was also so moved by LuLing's apology to Ruth for the pain she caused her during her childhood. Perhaps that apology was just a scene in a book and possibly might not happen in real life, but I thought Ruth both needed and deserved it, and it was sooo satisfying.

    Another lovely moment was learning the origins of Ruth's name...in memory of Miss Grutoff and Sister Yu. Now Ruth finally understands that her name was carefully chosen by LuLing, in honor of people that her mother had loved. Ruth had always wondered why her mother chose to give her a name that she had such problems pronouncing, and perhaps she felt, because of that, that LuLing hadn't put much thought into the choice of her name? Actually, the opposite was true. Luling had honored her daughter with the names of those she admired most...even if she couldn't say the letters easily.

    I thought the conversational scenes between GaoLing and Ruth revealed Gaoling's good character and loving heart. The two sisters were tough and resilient survivors, and each had some secrets to keep, but GaoLing always remained a loyal and loving sister to LuLing.

    I just loved the ironic touch about the retirement fund GaoLing had set up for her sister. Turns out that this spectacularly successful investment portfolio had been managed by the very young and unaware little RUTH, through her sand writing contacts with Precious Auntie! I thought that was so funny and touching...and so in keeping with the supernatural beliefs of LuLing. Ruth always recommended the stock that had the least letters to her mother, because it was easiest to write in the sand. Yet, look how well Ruth's casual stock choices worked out for her mother, and ultimately herself.

    So...where are my Tarot cards, Annafair, Lorrie, Babi and Hallie Mae? I'm about to become a believer! Who can say that Ruth's stock choices were NOT guided by Precious Auntie? It can almost make a cynic believe in supernatural advice from ghosts, can't it?

    I wonder, was Precious Auntie, our "shooting star," really lighting up the future for her daughter and granddaughter?

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 25, 2002 - 09:47 am
    Wasn't that hilarious how the two of them, mother and daughter, unwittingly cornered the stock market? I laughed aloud at that,

    On question 3 up above, I asked about the biographical aspects of this book. I believe that much of it is about Amy Tan's own life, and that of her mother, particularly when you read the deication: "On the last day that my mother spent on earth, I learned her real name, as well as that of my grandmother. This book is dedicated to them."

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 25, 2002 - 10:39 am
    HallieMae, I sent you an email with the interview on it, let me know if this works. I hope it's not the same one you were getting, I thought it told a lot about Tan's personal life. For instance, why they never had children, etc.

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 25, 2002 - 06:06 pm
    When doing a book review of Bonesetter's Daughter, Marie Arana, a Washington Post Book Editor, was asked if she had heard anything of Amy Tan's current whereabouts, and she replied "Marie Arana: Sad story. We had actually invited Amy Tan here to Washington to be one of our Special Event Authors. She had accepted, and it had been scheduled for Nov. 15. Unfortunately, she found herself in New York City on Sept. 11, and witnessed the ghoulish events as they unfolded. She became quite ill as a result, I'm told, and had to cancel. Our hope is that we'll be able to reconstitute her event when she feels better. Apparently she is undergoing treatment now. I do not know exactly what her condition is, but I do know it was serious enough to keep her in bed."

    I believe I also read somewhere that Ms. Tan was also suffering from deep depression. Tied in with her book, it seems that Amy Tan had had personal problems dealing with her own mother's Alzheimer's. I do hope she is much better.

    Lorrie

    judywolfs
    August 26, 2002 - 08:10 am
    Here's what I didn't like: It seemed to be terribly neat and artifically contrived for Art to suddenly become so understanding and generous; and for LuLing to suddenly become an elderly flirt with a new boyfriend. It's almost as if Amy Tan grew weary of writing the book and invented a fast, happy ending in the last 10 minutes; like the conclusion of a tv sitcom, for pity's sake.

    BaBi
    August 26, 2002 - 08:51 am
    Well, Judywolf, I partly agree with you. Luling and the boyfriend did seem a bit of a reach. Art didn't surprise me, tho'. I had the impression that he was a basically a decent guy with quite a bit going for him, but that he had come to take Ruth for granted and impose on her considerably. That was, to a great extent, Ruth's fault. She let him do it, and he thought the less of her for it. When she moved out, he had to do some re-thinking. Then he went and mended his bridges.

    I'm sorry to hear of Amy Tan's illness. I hope she will be able to pull out of it. ...Babi

    HarrietM
    August 26, 2002 - 10:22 am
    Judy and Babi, I had many of the same thoughts as you both did about the rapid resolution of problems at the end of the book. Yet, I feel very forgiving when a book has provided as much pleasure to me as this one has. Even with some too easy answers, there are wonderful moments that are still consistent with the earlier sections of BONESETTER.

    Did any of you love the plot Art and Ruth concocted to get LuLing into the Assisted Living Home as much as I did? I thought that was wonderful and funny, and, as it turns out, it's another indicatation of the personal depth of Amy Tan's knowledge about managing Alzheimers Disease. All of LuLing's difficult personal traits of overthriftiness and pride were used advantageously by Ruth, weren't they?

    The cost of the Assisted Living Home was sobering, wasn't it? I bet such a residence becomes even more expensive to enter with each successive year?

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 26, 2002 - 11:10 am
    Oh, Judiwolfs, you hit the nail right on the head. One of the biggest drawbacks to a perfect review of this book was the opinion, shared by many of the critics, that the ending was "just too pat" and neat.

    I personally feel that the ending was a bit overly tidy, too much emphasis was on the two women, mother and daughter, finding fulfillment in their male companions than in their new-found understanding of each other.

    HarrietM:

    The building next to ours here is an "assisted living" facility, and really quite luxurious. I have learned that the prices are just about the same as what Ruth was told. I understand it can be much more, because any activities or requirements are added on every month. It seems to be full on any given day, too. Apparently there are many wealthy Seniors in the country. Wish I were one.

    Lorrie

    Hallie Mae
    August 26, 2002 - 01:42 pm
    Lorrie, I did receive your email with the interview, I appreciate your thoughtfulness. And,. as I mentioned you in my reply, I was sruck by the feeling that she was telling her and her mother's stories in "Bonesetter's Daughter." Maybe the "pat" ending was wishful thinking on her part. For instance, her mother's first husband in real life wasn't like the wonderful one in the book.. She tied up all the loose threads in a neat bundle and gave everyone a happy ending - not the messy, untidy business that life really is like. I enjoy reading happy endings so was quite content with everyone happily going off into the sunset. (:

    Something else that struck me was how, during the occupation by the Japanese, everyone went about their business as usual. Never having lived under those circumstances, it's hard to imagine what it was like. How fortunate we are in this country never to have known what so many other countries suffered during wars.

    I was sorry to read about Amy Tan's problems, she's such a gifted writer I hope and pray that she gets better.

    Hallie Mae

    judywolfs
    August 26, 2002 - 02:11 pm
    Harriet, yes, the plot to get LuLing to agree to the assisted living was perfect. For years and years before she died my mother would send my brother out to get the perfect Christmas tree, but he wasn't allowed to spend over $5. Of course he lied about the true price every year. My mother was kind of like LuLing in that way.

    Lorrie
    August 26, 2002 - 04:04 pm
    Forgive me for interrupting here, but I did want to get in this reminder: Do any of you remember when we did a discussion of a book called "Nickel and Dimed in America" not too long ago? Well, they are doing a program on TV tonight all about that book, on A&E Investigative Reports, at 8:00 central, that would be 9:00 eastern on A & E. Don't miss this, it's a real eye-opener!

    Lorrie Okay, back to Bonesetter's Daughter.

    Lorrie
    August 26, 2002 - 10:14 pm
    Hallie Mae, I noticed that also about how matter-0f-fact the writing was about the Japanese invasion. It certainly wasn't true in other parts of China. Have any of you ever read "The rape of Nanking?" It gives a true, horrific retelling of the invasion of the Japanese and the war crimes they committed on the people there.

    Someone mentioned that there was a picture of the author on the inside cover, well I have it, too, and yes, there is a definite likeness to the woman pictured in the heading. A real family resemblance, wouldn't you say?

    Lorrie

    HarrietM
    August 27, 2002 - 06:41 am
    I taped Nickel and Dimed last night. Hope to watch it in the next day or two. Thanks for the alert, Lorrie.

    Harriet

    Lorrie
    August 27, 2002 - 10:11 am
    It was a good program, Hallie Mae, but I was disappointed that they didn't show more about Barbara's actual working experiences, when she took an actual job and worked it for a month. Three times. Her experiences were very revealing, and show a lot about the mentality of corporate America when it comes to their employees. Here's another case of where the book is again better than...............

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    August 27, 2002 - 10:55 am
    I was very touched by the tie-in at the end, when Ruth discovered the actual name of her grandmother. Somewher in the translation, it seemed to be "Shooting Star," an expression that arises frequently in the book. It's a poignant piece of writing when the author describes how Precious Auntie had told LuLing the story about a falling star swirling down and falling into her mouth.

    There's another thing that confuses me no end. I've been going back and can't seem to find any reference to Ruth's father..................................................... I know Amy Tan didn't have much to write in regard to LuLing's second husband, but can any of you find any more mention of a father? It puzzles me.

    Lorrie

    BaBi
    August 27, 2002 - 11:34 am
    Lorrie, there's not much about Ruth's father. He was the brother of GaoLing's husband; the two sisters married two brothers. He died early. I don't recall anything indicating that Ruth had any memories of him. ..Babi

    Ginny
    August 27, 2002 - 01:25 pm
    I regret that I missed that broadcast last night, for some reason the VCR decided to tape something else? I have not had that happen to me in a long time, I think lightning ran in on it, the clock was ALL mixed up, anyway, I hate I missed it?




    Before I get to this last part, I do want to say, Hallie Mae, what an interesting point you raise, and you raised it earlier too, WAS that Precious Auntie who appeared thru the writing in the sand, whom the young girl "saw" standing with hair to her feet or something (not looking back)? And Babi has explained the writing thing how it would be different with brush, OK I agree, the point I think I'm hung up on here is one of transference: interpretation has been transferred to Ruth, a child, from Lulling, who previously was the one who "translated" for Precious Auntie. For some reason this seems significant to me.

    Do I personally believe that Precious Auntie could be standing there, (that this might be a legend in Amy Tan's real family)? I don't know. You're talking to a woman who has a ghost here on the farm and whose paternal grandmother, the director of Nurses at Hahnemann Hospital in PA, who raised three children in the depression when her husband died and sent them to college (one of the least fanciful women on earth) who swore to me that her own grandmother appeared to her one night at the foot of her bed and predicted the death of her husband and told her what to do. He was in a sanitarium for TB out in Texas and he did die almost immediately thereafter suddenly and unexpectedly. She said she felt no fear at all, and when I, as children do, incredulously laughed, she was quite serious that it had happened.

    That seriousness makes an impression on a child? When an adult believes something no matter what the child thinks at the time, it does make an impression.

    I don't know. My maternal grandmother was one of those tested in that program at Duke University for the paranormal, those with ESP, I don't know.

    I think LuLing really wanted to hear from Precious Auntie? I think her guilt was profound, so much so that she kept trying to talk to her NOW after her death when it was her refusal to hear her communication before her death which led TO her death. Naturally she wishes she could communicate with her. Naturally she interpreted the child's Doggie as her own sign.

    This book is very carefully written.

    But how the child "saw" the manifestation, I have no clue?




    Lorrie, hahaha we were going to Ouiga at the Blackstone in Chicago on our Second Annual Bookfest. We bought a board for the trip. We never got to use it, they called and told me the Blackstone had closed its doors and we were in the street. The Quiga board is unopened and under my guest room bed, I'd like to get rid of it, hahaahha would you like it?




    Annafair, have always been interested in those colorful Tarot cards, but have no clue about them!

    OK more anon.....

    Barbara S
    August 27, 2002 - 08:41 pm
    Usually when you are writing a book, you only include what is significant to your story. In other words, Tan's book is about a mother/daughter relationship and what happened to their stories. Had Tan made a feature of the invasion,such a terrible tale was it in itself, it would have completed swamped the main story of the book. So she relates the invasion to the important experiences in the life of her character, Lu Ling - the death of her husband, the imprisonment of Ruth........, the exodus to Peking of the children and teachers at the orphanage and the continuing impact it had of the lives of Lu Ling and Gao Ling.

    I will be back later to put in my twopenn'th on the end of the book.

    Barbara

    Ginny
    August 28, 2002 - 05:57 am
    SWAMPED!

    Super point, Barbara!



    So she relates the invasion to the important experiences in the life of her character, Lu Ling - the death of her husband, the imprisonment of Ruth........, the exodus to Peking of the children and teachers at the orphanage and the continuing impact it had of the lives of Lu Ling and Gao Ling.


    Super point. I personally have been swamped since the opening pages and I could not isolate WHY, you just did it for me, I have problems concentrating because of the distractions, even tho this invastion was done thru the perspective of how it influenced LuLing (is the entire book like this?) I'm still swamped, thank you for that.

    Swamped

    judywolfs
    August 28, 2002 - 12:51 pm
    Ginny, you said you were swamped since by the distractions since the opening pages. Well now I wonder what you mean by the distractions? Do you mean the events happening in the world in general - like the discovery of Peking Man and the war and Japanese invasion? Those events didn't distract me, they kind of helped to provide a frame of reference, to set Precious Auntie's life and LuLing's life in China into a solid time slot. However, I don't remember noticing the mention of any current events during any of Ruth's parts of the story. Which war was going on? Who was the US President?

    Hallie Mae
    August 28, 2002 - 01:33 pm
    Lorrie, no I didn't read that book but the book I mentioned earlier, "Moment in Peking" by Lin Yutang, although a novel, recounted the horrors of the Japanese invasion.

    Barbara S, that's a good point, she was concentrating on the events in her characters lives.

    Judywolfs, I appreciated that too, I was very interested in the time frame of Luling's life in China. And you're right, I don't recall any current event references when it's Ruth's life.

    Ginny, I don't remember whether I mentioned this before but my mother once told me that she could see "death" in a person's face when she was young and it frightened her so much that she apparently was able to "bury" this talent. A room in my grandparent's house was supposed to be "haunted", everyone who slept there had a "vision'' or nightmare. That included me, suppose it could have been just the power of suggestion that made me see a Medusa's head coming right at me from the top of the closet. I've been sleeping with a light on at night ever since!

    Hallie Mae

    Ginny
    August 28, 2002 - 03:05 pm
    Judy, super question and insight, who WAS the President and when did this happen? Wonderful point! I misunderstood you at first, have got it now!

    On the "swamped" thing, I just finished it let me think about THAT excellent question, too, and come back in tomorrow, maybe with an answer, that's the feeling I've had all thru the book, let me look HARD and see if it's just me!

    Hallie Mae, I have known of people who "buried" certain...abilities like that, you leave the light on? I know people who religiously lock the bathroom door because of Psycho (which I have never seen, can you believe that?)

    Just some last minute comments about the last section, I'm wondering, let me ask you all, just out of curiosity? Did you also feel elated at the discovery of the name and the first name? Did you understand Ruth's elation?

    My biggest disappointment in the book (not that I'm disappointed) but I really had hoped that the "silence" thing every August which BEGAN the book, in fact was the first sentence, would be resolved or WAS IT? And I just missed it? I did slow down at the end.

    Super question, Judy, back at you tomorrow.

    ginny

    Lorrie
    August 28, 2002 - 04:07 pm
    That's it, Ginny! The ending seems so unresolved, in some respects. I would like to have read more about Ruth's self-inflicted "silence", and a little less of LuLing and her new beau.

    Still, this is a marvelous writer. Amy Tan has the ability to weave mother-daughter relationships, to shift back and forth between generations, and do it well. This ability to tap into the core struggles confronted by all women, regardless of age, nationality or race, is unmatched.

    How many of us have had to learn that when our mothers are criticizing us they are really loving us? This is a heartwarming novel for mothers of daughters or daughters of mothers.

    In these last few days, I would like everyone to post a few sentences telling us why you enjoyed this book, and what it meant to you. What you didn't like, and what you thought of the ending.

    Lorrie

    Barbara S
    August 28, 2002 - 11:27 pm
    Just to round off my impressions of the book. I found the theme pretty much the same as in the Joy Luck Club and the Kitchen God's daughter, mother/daughter/sibling relationships and cultural conflict. Just told in a different context, all of them I felt closely autobiographical. I found writing in two voices - Lu Ling's and Ruth's - a little bit disconcerting and I don't know whether I agree with this style, but I don't know how else it could have been done to get the message across.

    However, I really enjoy Tan's writing, her phraseology, her use of metaphors and similies and her readability and the way she develops her plots. She crafts her work very well.

    I must have missed the significance of the date that Ruth lost her voice, but noted in the epilogue, that this problem had been resolved. Regarding the ending, I interpreted the conclusion of the story that many of the areas at the crossroads of Ruth's life had been resolved; the understanding and care of her mother, her relationship with Art and the girls, the completion of her identity (in knowing her Chinese ancestry which I am sure is important to Chinese). She had developed confidence in her own ability as an author, or at least a writer (I am sure Tan had been there done that). The guilt that had racked her life seemed to have dissipated (sp)and above all she was able to give of herself (rather than doing for) to others and was more comfortable in her relationships.

    I would have to go back and work out whether Lu Ling's male friend was significant to the story. All I can say about this is that this sort of relationship it is quite common, except that both are usually demented.

    Thank you for an excellent discussion. I have enjoyed it.

    Barbara

    Ginny
    August 29, 2002 - 05:13 am
    Barbara, we have so enjoyed you in this discussion! I agree, Lorrie has done another of her splendid excellent discussions and ALL OF YOU have made such super posts and points.




    Huh? Epilogue? My book, the paperback book with the black cover? Contains NO epilogue and no conclusion to the speech thing.




    I'm going to say that overall, without looking back, I found the book uneven. I love Amy Tan. I think she writes beautifully, but this book has too many themes, too many images, too many voices and not integrated well so that the reader is puzzled at the get go.

    At first, Judy, I thought my puzzlement was due to good writing. I thought that Tan had thrown us wonderfully into the world of a child and we were getting to experience the book FROM the perspective of LuLing and I still think that's what she did. But it fell apart.

    Too many issues trying to be covered, like life, full of issues but to me not presented from a continual perspective, simply too much. Any one of the voices any one of the issues would have been fine.

    I did not share Ruth's deep emotion over finding out the real name nor did I grasp the significance, the book slumped there, for me.

    The marriage finally was too pat, ends tied up, I thought, and nothing is said in my book about the speech issue.

    I did not mind the aging romance, I was glad LuLing found somebody who appreciated her for her past, but the book just had too many paths followed all at once, for me, coherence of plot was not a bonus.

    However I did learn a lot from the book which I did not know, the bones, "dragon" bones, ink making, the calligraphy character thing, (do you suppose, at this late date, that the chapter titles MEAN something to the plot?) and general Chinese sentiments well written (nobody can say Tan can't write, she's fabulously good) and I also learned a LOT from your comments here, and it added so much to my understanding, pitiful as it was, of the story.

    Lorrie, you get an A+++++++++++++ for this discussion! Thank you!

    ginny

    HarrietM
    August 29, 2002 - 07:43 am
    I liked the book a lot. I had started to read it a while back and found it too hard to figure out, so I shied away the first time. When I tried it again with all of you, it came together for me. I loved Tan's writing, I loved the gallantry and courage of the characters, the exploration of the mother-daughter relationships. I thought Amy Tan was sensational at portraying unusual personality types, particularly with the older LuLing, that would seem absolutely indescribable to me. The strong female characters had an acceptance of life and a resilience that really came through to me.

    The ending was too pat. I really ignored LuLing's elderly romance at the end because it was soooo unlikely. LuLing is so difficult to manage that Ruth and Gao Ling can't handle a day or two alone with her...but her boy friend has no problems? Unlikely, I thought.

    Still, this was my first Amy Tan book and, for sure, it won't be my last. I'm an easy sell...I lost myself in the book and loved it as I went along, I thought personal thoughts and had my own personal memories about family activated, and I really had a good time.

    Lorrie, it was a super discussion that opened up a new author to me. You did such a great job! Thank you so much for presenting BONESETTER for all of us.

    Harriet

    Hallie Mae
    August 29, 2002 - 08:39 am
    Ginny, in the Epilogue:

    "Ruth still had her voice. Her ability to speak is not governed by curses or shooting stars or illness. She knows that for certain now. But she does not need to talk. She can write. Before, she never had a reason to write for herself, only for others. Now she has that reason."

    -Also in the Epilogue, I loved the picture she drew with these words:

    "In the Cubbyhole, Ruth returns to the past. The laptop becomes a sand tray. Ruth is six years old again, the same child, her broken arm healed, her other hand holding a chopstick, ready to divine the words. Bao Bomu comes, as always, and sits next to her. Her face is smooth, as beautiful as it is in the photo. She grinds an inkstick into an inkstone of duan. 'Think about your intentions,' Bao Bomuy says. ' What is in your heart, what you want to put in other's.' And side by side, Ruth and her grandmother begin, Words flow . . . "

    Another point made in the Epilogue was that Luling had changed .. She was remembering just the happy parts of her life. "She only recalls being loved very, very much.She remembers that to Bao Bumo she was the reason for life itself."

    This has been a wonderful discussion and I've enjoyed immensely all the great participants that I won't name in case I forget someone! . Many thanks to Lorrie for her insightful questions and guidance throughout the discussion.

    Hallie Mae

    BaBi
    August 29, 2002 - 11:55 am
    I thought the epilogue so great; it certainly should have been in every printing of the book. The idea of Bao Bomu's teachings passing on to guide her granddaughter's writing I found very moving. "Think about your intentions". "What is in your heart, what you want to put into others." Great principles for any writer, and practiced by Amy Tan, I have no doubt.

    Thanks, Lorrie. ...Babi

    Lorrie
    August 29, 2002 - 01:10 pm
    I am so proud of all of you; it's comforting to realize that you all were able to see beyond the superficialiies of plot and get deeply involved with the characters in this book. Your comments and in-depth explanations make this apparent, and I must say that when we get a group of faithful readers like you, it's a definite pleasure to lead a discussion. Saying that, I do hope that you all can join us when we do "Empire Falls" in October. I know you'll like that book! And don't forget Ginny's "Remains of the Day" that same month.

    Ooooh, we've got so many wonderful choices! And such a great group to share them with!!

    Lorrie