When the discussion opens officially, I'll have an (indirect) experience to share with you.

We are truly blessed, in this special circle of book-loving cyber friends, to have several stimulating discussions at any given time : testimony to our diverse interests, and proof that we are not standing still but ever willing to expand the mind and gather knowledge.

Thank you.

It has taken me an inordinate amount of time to compose, type and edit my group's newsletter and to work on a flyer for an important meeting later this month. I finished the crucial part of the work just this evening and came in now to let you know the reason for my not having posted more frequently.

Thank you !

I understand time constraints and concerns only to well and often find myself struggling painfully between several tasks that should be performed simultaneously.

And yes, it is difficult to participate in several discussion folders at the same time-- but, as Mrs. Watson said, it is doable. It will be well worth while. Just consider the alternative of bland or arid discussions --

I have happened on some points and will bring them up tomorrow. Stay tuned !

It is vital to our discussion, I believe, because it was written at a time of economic "flowering" and modernization, just as the characters in the book had hoped. But then came the Russian invasion, a decade of strife, our own support of the Mujaheddin rebels, the Russian withdrawal in 1989 and, with the end of the Cold War, the end of our involvement in Afghanistan. Until now.

It would be wonderful to have you join in the discussion whenever your time allows. Sharing is a comfort in times like these. I am grateful.

Michener loved Afghanistan, he went there nine times (for the first time in 1955), and he seems to have been essentially hopeful of a brighter, more modern future-- at least when he wrote the book and the Note to the Reader for the paperback edition. But then came 10 years of death and destruction with the invading Russians, and one wonders about the author's thoughts and feelings in the last years of his life.

Clearly, feminism and racism, humanism, other -isms, and inhumanity, like the holocaust, will have to be dealt with during the discussion; also, several terms used in the book- while perfectly acceptable at the time- have since become outdated, shall we say. But we will focus first and foremost focus on "Caravans" and we'll see where it the discussion takes us.

MaryPage, thank you for specifying the June 1985 issue of National Geographic -- I will relay the information to our imaginative, valued design team. We owe a great deal of gratitude to them because, without their creativity, we would look othing like this here -- even in the developmental stages.

As for Michener, MaryPage, let me say that I really loved TALES OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, THE BRIDGES at TOKO-ri and (of course) SAYONARA. And who could ever forget the movies with Mary Martin, Rossano Brazzi, Marlon Branddo-- the ultimate accolade ?

But some of the later books became tomes, and Michener lost me with HAWAII. But that is not really the point here, is it ? We have come together to read this specific book and to talk about the characters and what is going to happen to them, poor souls---Now, I would be immensely grateful if we could try to be as objective as is ever possible and withhold expressions of either sympathy or total condemnation until later. Reading in predetermined segments puts certain limitations on the reader and makes a final "gelled" evaluation (as I call it) a lot more difficult.

Happy reading !

A headless calf (= the "ball") is flung into a goal circle and two competing teams charge each other in full gallop for its possession; the author, then 38, participated and lived to tell the tale. Michener describes a similar event.

"A Man's world", says Abercrombie and adds that tureh = bravery is a "prime quality" for an Afghan. These are the men whose forebears battled successive waves of invaders and conquerors from Alexander the Great, who built great cities, to Genghis Khan whose Mongol hordes destroyed them, and many others in between, and since. The penultimate were the British who, alarmed when Tsasrist Russia supported Persian claims to the city of Herat, invaded Afghanistan from India in 1839 -- with a disastrous result for the British, and again in 1878 when the British tried to set up a buffer state. Finally, in 1919 the British recognized Afghanistan's independence, and crowds celebrated in Kabul for days. After that, the country more or less sealed its borders (and I have a still vivid childhood memory which I'll share later).

Please feel free to jump in now and contribute any thoughts you may have. It will add to the collective enrichment.

Yes, there are many stimulating discussions under way and coming - aren't we lucky ?

If you saw CNN's "Beneath the Veil" you will want to see the sequel tonight at 8:00 PM Eastern - "Unholy War". The gal who went to Afghanistan before to do her first filming has gone back for more!

I have had problems with the computer all afternoon : repeated freezing in mid-sentence, abrupt AOL disconnects and other assorted shenanigans --- just as I was ready to post the reading schedule !

My computer guru Connie has been alerted, and I hope that all will be well tomorrow.

Thank you again for your post Linda; I might have missed the program.

The reading schedule is all set and will soon appear in the header, thanks to the assistance of our insuperable technical team. I hope the schedule will not impose an undue hardship on you, the participants, during the busy month of December. Yet in light of the fast-moving events in Afghanistan there is, I think, a heightened sense of urgency, even immediacy, in CARAVANS, even though the action is of another era.

Please join us then.

May I use this opportunity to wish you and yours A HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

I add my thanks to all who have expressed an interest in joining us to discuss a truly exciting book.

I am looking forward to your input.

HATS, this is a very human, a very revealing story in many ways, and it will lead us inevitably to moral and ethical questions.

I like the directness of Michener's opening chapter in outlining the problems immediately at hand, and the description of the claustrophobic atmosphere in which the foreign officials ("ferangis") find themselves, stranded in an alien city without even the simplest, taken-for-granted amenities, like newspapers, and huddle together reading plays.

What the narrator, Mark Miller, tells us about himself - in a curiously detached, ironic way - is worth noting.

Luke Powell's pictures are stunning, some captions of surprising candor.

Ella, UNOCHA stands for United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. I'll get back to the "donkey" thing later. Thank you.

Robby

This is a super book to read right now!

Linda

Special thanks to you, Linda, for the excellent links. The map is quite clear, with the bordering nations clearly identified, and will be of great help e.g. in judging distances when followig the path of the caravans outlined in the book.

Many thanks for leading us to the articles by Sebastian Junger and the photos. It would be extraordinary to hear original Afghan music (music was forbidden by the Taliban, of course, as were innocent pleasures as flying kites and women's laughing out loud). Unfortunately my Mac lacks whatever essential part is needed to transmit music : a sad deficiency. Though technically hopeless, I will find out what to do about it- eventually.

Thank you for your lively contributions.

I was reading in today's paper of the care and compassion that is being shown by the zoo keepers in Kabul. They are scrounging up money from zoological people around the globe in order to give the animals proper care. The head zoo keeper has not taken his salary since July.

They have terrorism even there. The gorilla lost one eye because someone threw a grenade into his cage. Someone else fired a rocket launcher against the elephant.

I would submit that the "implacable forces of nature" have made the Afghans stronger over the millennia but that the violence we are seeing is because of uncontrollable human greed on the part of various individuals just as it exists in all nations of the world.

Robby

Let me welcome belatedly decaf/Judy and thank her for the map collection link. Maps are of immense help because they provide a framework essential to understanding both the present fluid conditions in a far-away, alien land where we have become actively engaged, and the situation as it existed in 1946, when the action in CARAVANS takes place.

That's just a year after the second world war ended, and there is relief mixed with uncertainty (is it really over?). But WW II was fought in the Pacific and in Europe ------Afghanistan in central Asia was hardly a sought-after diplomatic assignment at the time; kudos to those who even knew where it was.

And here right at the beginning of this book is Mark Miller, the narrator, put in charge of trying to find Ellen Jaspar--- a difficult task even with the information made available through secret channels. What do you as the reader make of the information, have you formed any opinion as to what "kind of person" Ellen could be ?

We must remember of course that the book was written in 1963, i.e. before the advent of flower children and communes, but was Ellen Jaspar a possible forerunner ? We read that she considered herself "disaffiliated", but we always have had those in our midst who are disaffected and opt out.

Was there anything different about Ellen that is discernible from the first assigned chapters ?

And a WARM WELCOME to Doris, and Dapphne and Mrs. Watson !

Doris, dear Neighbor to the North,

CARAVANS is perhaps more "personal" than some of Michener's other work; it is no doubt deeply felt, and he knew the country well from nine visits. The narrative is brisk, the crescendo palpable. I dare predict you will like the book.

Dapph, the essence will come back to you, I'm sure.

Mrs. Watson, a young American captured with the Taliban ? That IS astonishing. I wonder what the background story there might be but we'll probably never know for sure. Could it have been idealism ? Even if misplaced ?

I just read the article in the SF Chronicle on the web; the NYT also carries the story. The young man is said to have converted to Islam at age 16; he learned Arabic and started memorizing the Koran.

Yes indeed. In the sixties and seventies, many of our young looked for alternative lifestyles, and some were our own children ! Height Ashbury, remember !

Michener had realized the tendency early on, I think, and labeled it "disaffiliated". Whatever name we apply, we know what he meant, and we are reminded sharply by the news about a young American who joined and was captured with the Taliban.

Please feel free to join us again. And MANY thanks for alerting us (me in particular) to the movie. I will check it out at once.

Thank you for the link to the map. Maps are essential- indispensable really, to judge the location of he neighboring countries, specifically Pakistan whence the Taliban (literally young clerics) came and where they had been schooled.

Let's keep an eye on the narrator, on Nur Mahammad, his guide, and Moheb.

Thanks to you all.

There IS an answer in the book as to whether Ellen knew that Nazrullah was already married or not, but it shall not be revealed here, not now.

As the narrator (who speaks Pashto) and his Afghan guide set out on their search for Ellen Jaspar, the reader is given a realistic, even blunt introduction to the customs of an untamed land; has a chance to see how the "ferangi" behave, cope and react in this alien environment, and meets key players in the story -- all of this long before Ellen appears "in the flesh" . Such is Michener's artistry.

Tiger Tom, thank you for your eloquent post # 68. Cultural differences exist and should be acknowledged- not minimized, and never disregarded, let alone dismissed. There are countless examples of the plight of women such as you described. Each case would have to be investigated individually to determine what specific issue(s), wants/needs/expectations were at work there.

Even now we have American men looking for and finding brides in states of the former Soviet Union and the Philippines, for example; some unions may even be success stories. But by and large, the cultural gap is a reality, and it has to be bridged --- eventually.

If education and awareness ARE the keys, as we'd like to think, do women in our own highly developed society make use of them ? If not, why not ?

Which brings us back to Ellen Jaspar. She was a college student- bright from all reports, though a bit "off" perhaps by the standards of what the "norm" was at the time.

Harriet, I like your take in #65 and I thank you.

As promised, back to post #40 by Ella Gibbons. Would you please scroll back to read it - to save time.

Ella had viewed the Luke Powell photos of Afghanistan, read his captions and wondered about what Powell said about the donkeys- their proper (?) place in "real" life and their (wrong?) association with humility in biblical teaching.

It's an interesting point that I for one had not questioned before. How much we learn here !! Happy reading.

CARAVANS was a Book-of-the-Month Club selection in 1963, paperback editions were published in 1973 and 1978 by Fawcett Crest and by Ballantine in 1982. The Note to the Reader is important and I have read it several times; in it the author mentions those German-built bridges.

Linda, your feelings about Mexico are well described, and I know precisely what you mean. There are countries, and even specific cities, that occupy forever a special place in our hearts.

The discussion schedule is intended to provide a necessary framework, but it is perfectly fine to read ahead. That's what I do.

Another quick comment about passports : thefts do occur and U.S. traveling to foreign countries are advised to safeguard theirs, even to have on hand, separately, elsewhere in the luggage, a copy of the first page--- to facilitate a reissue by an embassy, if it proves necessary.

Swiss passports were highly prized during WW II when the Euroopean continent was aflame with war and this small neutral country a bastion of safety. Since then the seasonal workers "imported" during months of heavy tourism had seasonal visas. But tourism is down and Switzerland has accepted large numbers of Bosnian refugees and asylants from African nations. There have been marriages of convenience to Swiss women - for the sake of the passport ! - and during my yearly visits I have seen unmistakable signs of unprecedented societal changes. Just a tmporary digression here. Sorry.

You are correct about safeguarding one's Passport. It is wise to carry passport, in one place, travelers Checks in another and other papers in a third place. Never carry all of them in a purse that can be snatched. Another thing: unless you are on a tour with a group, when traveling, and you intend to stay in a country for a week or more go to the Embassy or Consulate and REGISTER. That way the Embassy knows that you are in country and where you will be staying. So if anything happens and your family starts inquiring about you the Embassy will have a place to start and to tell the local Police of your last know whereabouts. that can be invaluable. Try to let the Hotel you are staying at or the friends you are staying with your plans for the day. One other thing (for your grandkids) if it is illegal in the U.S. it will be illegal overseas. Too many American Kids are sitting in Prisons overseas, usually on Drug charges, because they didn't think that drugs wre illegal in other countries or some one they met told them drugs were "OK" in that country. Not so.

Tiger Tom

And the Afghan people are said to be among the most hospitable in the world, sharing with guests what little they may have. A recent article in the NYT had just such a moving account of one journalist's experience - and I have seen other sources.

Tiger Tom, yes it is always advisable to make contact with a consulate or embassy for the reasons you gave. In these anxious times it is wise to be cautious, and also to be respectful of the customs and laws of the country one is visiting.

Last Sunday the Boston Globe Magazine carried an article by Yvonne Daley titled The Ugly American (Still) "Arrogant, insular, and shortsighted, the American view of the rest of the world is fatally flawed", wrote William Lederer 43 years ago. And today, with the country fighting a war on terrorism, he despairs that little has changed.

The first time I was able only to access the first series of photos taken in the seventies; the second time I was able to view the SECOND series as well, which is considerably longer with 63 photos taken in 2000 during a return visit by Mr. Powell. A third series was expected to be posted/made available this month, and I will be on the lookout.

While I was able to print photos , the text itself - which would have been wonderful to have and hold and keep (as is my wont) - did NOT "show"; so I took notes instead and will try to refer to any that may bear particularly on the caravans in our book.

Reflecting on the first group of "assigned" chapters I was again struck by Michener's masterful telling of the story. The reader is introduced at once to the major players, their respective roles, and awed by the backdrop of this ancient country, so prized by invaders and conquerors for centuries.

The actual story begins in chapter 5 when Mark Miller and his Afghan guide Nur set out on the journey (from Kabul to Kandahar by way of Ghazni) to find Ellen; it is also the beginning of Mark Miller's "initiation" into Afghanistan. He witnesses a stoning and has a glimpse at the Povindahs, 'ostracized', Nur called them. Another name for these nomads is Kochi. Luke Powell comments on the uncertain and fluid relationship between the nomadic and the sedentary agrarian societes of Afghan society in our time.

Chapter 6 represents a defining moment because we are getting closer to the elusive Ellen.

We have two days to comment on this section of the book before we proceed. Any thoughts and impressions you'd like to bring up are are welcome. Thank you.

Stoning continued in Afghanistan, as we could see in the chilling scenes from recent CNN videos.

When Michener wrote CARAVANS in 1963, he had reason to be hopeful for Afghanistan's future; there were signs of progress : irrigation, attempts to allocate parcels of land to nomads, and roads being built by (competing) Americans and Soviets.

All of this came to an abrupt end with the Soviet invasion, followed by a decade of fierce fighting, the eventual inglorious withdrawal of the Soviets, the end of the Cold War------ and then civil war between tribes, until the Taliban took power in 1996. And the rest is recent history.

No doubt Michener had been there, had intimate knowledge and experiences in the area- surely as elementary as the staples, nan and pilau, and as startling as having to eat in shifts to prevent theft.

Chapter 6 is pivotal in the story, I believe, not only because of those ingeniously designed but ultimately useless German bridges, but because Dr. Stiglitz makes his appearance --- but I don't mean to influence your interpretation.

Public television showed a special this afternoon, Islam : Empire of Faith . Watching very little TV, I had not been aware of it and actually was hoping to see Lidia Bastianich cooking. None such today.

The most amazing quality TV fare airs during pledge time, which this is. The portion I saw had to do with Suleiman (1520-66), and I can only hope it will be repeated, soon.

Happy reading.

It's the work of our technical team, all of proven excellence. They work tirelessly behind the scenes. I would like to let them know they are appreciated and thank them with all my heart.

Are we ready for the next chapter assigment ? Ready to meet Nazrullah's wife ? What are your impressions ?

I agree with your statement, Linda. While the Taliban went to extraordinary lengths and horrifying extremes, women have been treated differently from, and subordinated to, men for centuries all over the Muslim world.

It may be of interest in this larger context to read Ellen Goodman's oped article in today's Boston Sunday Globe titled "No freedom for US women on Saudi soil", which I'll quote in its entirety.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11457-2001Dec7.html

Text of article removed by Host per SeniorNet Internet Citation procedure. Email marcie@seniornet.org with any questions.

The text was removed by the host but a link provided to the Washington Post where the article also appeared, albeit with a different title/headline. Please avail yourselves of the opportunity to read the article via the link. The columnist is based in Boston.

Thank you for your clarifiction, Mahlia. You have been missed.

It is an intriguing question, one to which I had never given any thought, I must admit, accepting the 'thesis' that Jesus' riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was "evidence of his humility".

"This is nonsense", says Powell, flatly. Would you care to comment ? I had promised to get back to the subject, and here I am.

And to repeat, UNOCHA stands for United Nations Office for the Cooperation of Humanitarian Affairs .

It was the Mullah's who made life hard for the Peace Corps volunteers in Pakistan, Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) and aother Muslim countries. The Mullah's claimed all sorts of things about the Peace Corps. They kept saying that the Peace Corps Volunteers were lying, that they didn't know anything and that the old ways had been good enough in the past and was still good in the Present. Preached that Female Volunteers were Whores. Needless to say, the Volunteers, try as they may, didn't manage to do as much as they had wished to do. the Mullah's considered the Volunteers as a threat to their power. Knowledge is always a threat to the Mullah's and other Fundamentalist no matter what Religion.

From all appearances, the power, the influence, the governance even, of the Mullahs is stronger now, much stronger it seems, than it was when Michener wrote CARAVANS. As we read the book and reflect on this fictional tale, we cannot help but compare it with the present conditions and circumstances in this unfortunate country.

Perhaps we ought to begin by taking note of the fact that Mark Miller was able to converse with the Mullahs in Pashto when they berated not him but the jeep-- and then withdrew, surprised at his linguistic ability. There is an important lesson here, largely unheeded: the need for and the value of a linguistic bridge.

To know another language is not only a way toward beginning to understand another country and its culture, but also provides a greater appreciation of one's own tongue. I admit to being biased, for languages and linguistics have been my life's work and primary focus.

As far as I understand, there IS no separation between church and state in Muslim countries; how then CAN the concept of democracy be explained and comprehended there ?

Iran and Turkey for example have difficulties: in both countries there is an uneasy (uneven ?) balance between secular and religious authorities; and in Turkey there seems to be 'growling' under the surface- for want of a better term.

As for the questions I had originally posed -- they were designed to stimulate interest in the story and its outcome. There have been brief answers/remarks to # 1 and 2, but none yet to # 3 and 4.

But there is no reason why readers/participants should consider themselves "bound" by or limited to these questions; please bring up any and all thoughts/impressions you have. Tomorrow we'll start in on chapters 7 to 11. Thank you.

Is the FSI affiliated with Georgetown U. in Washington ? If not, what is the name of the special school within Georgetown U. that prepares future diplomats, politically and linguistically ?

Well, if we don't value the ability of speaking another language (and we don't), that's our loss. If key personnel in an American embassy abroad were able to understand and speak the language, especially in an Arab country, quite a lot of intelligence could be gathered from such contact ! Is a translator (who does the WRITTEN work, BTW) or an interpreter (who stands right next to the foreigner and SPEAKS FOR him) always reliable ? Can he/she always be trusted ??

I recently mentioned having read an article in the NYT whose author wrote that he adores Afghanistan and never ceases to be astonished at the casualness of daily brutality so prevalent in every part of society, and its strangely incongruous pairing with acts of extraordinary kindness, as when a family who had nothing to eat during a famine 3 years ago pressed upon him their last disk of bread.

As for question # 4, when I formulated it I wondered whether the fierce, tough but resilient people were perhaps also "shaped" (in a manner of speaking) by their struggle for survival against the forces of nature - which they seem to have handled with ingenuity - just look at Nazrullah !

Yes, Mahlia, I understand your excellent point. Indeed, we read that there is fighting even now within the SAME tribe over dominance of Kandahar and has caused concern.

Today we are extending our discussion to chapters 7 to 11, and I will check in again in late afternoon.

It was Linda, I think, who said there is something prophetic in Michener's narrative. I agree.

No, The Foreign Service Institute is not affiliated with Georgetown University. Georgetown has a course and maybe even a degree program in the field but the FSI is concerned with getting its employees somewhat prepared for posting overseas. Language, Culture and Customs are taught, however briefly.

Embassy and Consulates have translators. they usually work for the Principal Officer, his deputy and the Political Officer and Economic Officer. The person doesn't carry the title of Translator. The persons title would be Assistant to the (Political section or Economic section or both.)

Translators are usually used for high level types such as the Secretary of State; President; Senators, Members of the House, that sort. This is to be sure that Everyone understands what is being said. Can they be Trusted? that depends on who is providing the Translator. Generally, American Delegations bring along their own translator. Anyone else such as a reporter businessman, etc. is on thier own.

There was a case of a reporter filming in Vietnam and he had hired a traslator recommended to him by the U.S. Information Service. Turns out that the translator was a Viet Cong Officer. He had been working for the USIS and other U.S. government agencies in VietNam. He would never had been exposed except that a Translator in FSI was walking by when the film was being shown to some officials. He told them what was really being said in Vietnamese. Film was shown thereafter in FSI and USIS about the perils of using a Translator that one is not absolutely sure of. By the way, at one point in that film the Translator asked the person being interviewd if they should kill the reporter.

Tiger Tom

Six or seven Tribes in North America DID get together to form a Government. It was called :The Iriquois Confederation. (I know I didn't spell that right, forgive me.)

The Confederation worked quite well. The women ran the Government. The Men Fought the battles and did the Hunting.

I read somewhere, once, that part of the U.S. Articles of Confederation was taken from the Indian Confederation. That Confederation tried to keep it's member tribes out of the fighting between the European Powers and the Reolutionary war. Weren't successful and paid the price for it. Probably didn't matter as the Westward expansion of the Whites would have guaranteed that they would have been wiped out.

Tiger Tom

Mahlia and Tiger Tom, thank you for the helpful clarifications and amplifications

Betty, thank you for joining in.

Your points are well taken. A loose comparison with Native American clans and tribes gives us some idea of the Afghan tribes. But the latter are of different ethnic origins, there are e.g. Mongols, Uzbeks, Tajiks -- and I would ask Mahlia and Tiger Tom to please elaborate.

tryxsie, no, the Afghans are not Arabs. The only thing Afghans and Arabs have in common is their faith, Islam. But in this case I would like to also defer to Mahlia and Tiger Tom for a definition of the distinction.

Many thanks for taking the time to read and post here in these hectic days.

May I add here that the Arab peninsula is considered the cradle of Islam : its founder, Muhammad, was an Arab, born in Mecca about A.D. 570.

After his death in Medina in A.D. 632, his followers rode out of the Arabian desert to spread the faith in ALL directions, conquering the Persian Empire and much of the Byzantine Empire, expanding into North Africa, into Spain and Sicily, through the Middle East and to the Indus River, eventually to Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and the Philippines.

The conquered, converted nations adhered to the Islamic faith, but the centuries-long cycle of expansion came to an end, which is of course not the subject of our discussion here, and I apologize for digressing. But the subject is dear to me, I chose it for my thesis a very long time ago.

Careful about the use of Eskimo. What many People in the lower 48, regard as Eskimo are really Alaskan Indians. The Eskimo live primarily above the Artic Circle in the Northern most part of North America.

If you were to see an Eskimo along side an Alaskan Indian, you could easily see the difference.

The Eskimo do NOT want to be identified with the Indians of Alaska.

There are physical and cultural differences. The Eskimo are called that. However, the Alaskan Indian (used to be when I was there back in the early 50's) are called in some quarters: Siwash. A name they do not like. Eskimo are a very interesting people. BTW, they Don't live in Igloo's, only when traveling acrosss the tundra in winter.

Tom

Now, as promised, I'm getting back to Linda's post # 109. Not until today did I have the chance to carefully read the link to the alternet article "Everyday Life in Afghanistan". It is interesting, revealing and, to me, infinitely sad : the description of the many hardships and the scarcity of water NOW in 2001 ! matches what Michener told us in CARAVANS about Afghanistan in 1946 ! When he wrote the book in 1963, there was tangible progress in many areas; roads were being built by the U.S. and the Soviets, there was hope. But by the end seventies everything came to a standstill, and the clock turned back.

Thank you again for the link, Linda.

Now a question : Michener mentions only the chaderi, never the 'burka' (which has almost become a household word here). Are the terms synonymous ?

What is your impression of Dr. Stiglitz and Nazrullah's wife ? By now the reader is confident that Ellen is still alive.

We are only beginning to comprehend the underlying reasons for what is happening in Afghanistan now, and the relevance of this book is undeniable from a political and historical point of view, quite aside from the strangely fascinating plot. And there are those comparisons you have brought out !

I believe that the book is a true link to our understanding of present events, and that because of those events we read the book with greater "receptivity".

You mention the difficulties of lanquage differences among the different Arab Tribes and the advantages of being able to converse with people in their own lanquages, to better understand their culture differences>p> When the American troops first landed in Africa in 1942, there were many cultural differences we had to get accustomed to.

There were so many different Arabian dialects that the Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians had difficulties in communications in their own native lanquages among the different tribes in northern Africa, and used French as a second lanquage, as these countries were all French Colonies. As I was multi- linqual, I got along very well with the Arabs.

The thing that surprised us the most was that the strong centuries old patriarchal system was still in existence in the Arab culture, in which women were still regarded as chattel, and not as equals to the men-folk.

It was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a donkey hitched up together, doing the chores in the hot sun, while the man of the domicle fanned himself, in the shade , under a nearby tree while he supervised the job.

In Tunisia, it was customary among the Nomad Bedouins, who were desert dwellers and continually moving, that the man usually travelled 20 paces ahead of his wife, on his donkey, to denote his male authority position.

The woman tradionally trudged on foot behind, carrying a large bundle of firewood on her head.

Riding the donkey ahead of his wife made it possible for the man to point out sticks of wood that she might not see. She would then pick up the piece, and add it to the bundle already on top of her head.

While the Germans were retreating in the desert they planted numerous anti- personnel mines to slow the American pursuit. Occasionally a mule would step on a mine, and the man and mule would be blown to Kingdom Come.

This changed the whole patriarchal culture among the Bedouins, while we were there to observe it, and made them reconsider the position and status of their wives.

After the loss of a few men and mules, the women were given the privileged position of walking 20 paces in front of the mule, but still had to carry the bundle of wood on her head.

This made the woman more vulnerable to tripping a personnel mine, but it saved a lot of the mules that the males considered more valuable than their women.

Pat

A new generation of Turks, born in Germany, has been fighting to obtain German citizenship. But Germany adheres to jus sanguinis , i.e. the principle that a child has the citizenship of the PARENTS, as opposed to jus soli which decrees that a child has the citizenship of the COUNTRY of birth (which is true for the U.S.).

But the sight of women in scarves and long coats even in summer, walking behind the man is familiar in other western European countries as well.

Thousands of guest workers came to Germany also from Italy, Spain, Greece, and especially Yugoslavia before its breakup. Most did well and adapted. Many own homes there. Switzerland always had seasonal workers during the tourist season and has taken in thousands of refugees after the breakup of the Soviet Union; more recently it granted asylum to large numbers of refugees from Bosnia. France became home for many Algerians. The slow thrust northward from the heart of Africa continues; many asylum seekers travel on foot for weeks, even months. They are smuggled across the Strait of Gibraltar, but promptly taken into custody on Spanish soil and kept in camps while waiting for legal permission to stay. It is a modern migration.

BTW, the mention of Tunesia reminded me of the book THE SHELTERING SKY by Paul Bowles.

Mahlia, yes indeed, converts are quite often "more staunch in their beliefs and practices" as you said, "more papal than the Pope", as the saying goes.

Ellen Jaspar appears selfish and thoughtlessly self-absorbed to me, at least at this point in the story, and Dr. Stiglitz is not a likable man, I'm afraid. And there is more in store for the reader.

There are a few more questions I'd like to pose about incidents in chapters 7 and 8. But it will have to wait until tomorrow. Many thanks to you all.

Women walking a few careful paces behind the man does NOT always mean that she is in an inferior position: In Arizona, among the Hope and Navajo, Women walk behind the man while in town and ride in the bed of the Pickup truck when going back to the Reservation. However, once on the Reservation the true position becomes evident. The Women own all property, and land. Run the Government and can Divorce a Man merely by putting his few possesions outside the door. The walking behind the man is done for show to appease the Ego of both the Male Indian and the White Males in town. don't know if that has changed much since I was last in Arizona some years ago.

Coming back to your comments on the stoning of the adulterous woman in the book: the Taliban used stoning (still or again), as we were horrified to see in the clandestinely made video on CNN, that was aired several times.

I am interested in your reaction to the execution in chapter 7 of the young innocent in the woman's Parisian coat.

Chapter 8 is important in the story for several reasons. One is that the narrator's role becomes more personal, extending beyond his assigned duties to observe, search for Ellen and report to the embassy. He undergoes a baptism of fire, three times : (1) witnessing the stoning, (2) witnessing the execution, (3) climbing up to and then into the ancient mound structure built a thousand or so yours earlier in the Dasht-i-Margo, the Desert of Death, in an ingenious irrigation project, the karez system. This is a turning point in the story, I believe.

BTW, I have decided to hazard an answer to my own question : Karima, Nazrullah's wife, must have been wearing a burka, to judge from her muffled voice. Michener refers to the 'shroud' and 'chaderi'. The terms must be synoymous, I take it.

Happy reading

The author traveled extensively in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s and lived with Gypsy families. She gives a contemporary account of the Roma and their relentless persecution since the time of their exodus from India long ago; their decimation by the Nazis, their forcible assimilation by the communists, and the discrimination they still face in some Western countries to which they fled. I found her insight into women's lives especially compelling. Mine was a library copy but the book is available in paperback.

In haste - until later

I don't know how old I was, but I remember one summer morning when grandfather and all the men were out in the fields, with grandmother and me left alone in the house. By then she was infirm and spent most of her days just sitting on the sofa in the parlor, close by the window facing the street. A mirror had been ingeniously mounted outside - grandfather called it "the spy"- which enabled her to monitor who was coming or going along the village street.

That peaceful morning was suddenly interrupted by someone running down the street yelling, "The Gypsies are coming, the Gypsies are coming !"

I had never seen grandmother move this fast before; she grabbed me by the hand, and down the stairs we went, through the courtyard, both of us breathing fast. She locked the gate and leaned against it, unable to take another step.

Somehow we got back into the parlor and watched the road. And then they came, women in long wide colorful skirts, long black hair streaming down their backs, wearing enormous loops in their ears I had never seen before. They all carried sacks, and small children followed in their trail. They tried all the gates. All were locked.

Grandmother and I held hands. Then she told me why the gates had to be locked : the Gypsies would steal children with blond hair. And I remember being glad that I was not blond.

I found Isabel Fonseca's book eye-opening, but I still wonder about the reason for the seemingly universal discrimination against the Gypsies.

yes, that was one of the prophetic statements Michener made through the character Nur - to indicate that Islam should not be dismissed as a "desert religion", (even though, it should be noted, Judaism, Christianity and Islam were all "born" in the desert !!!) and that the world had not heard the last of it. Indeed, the world sat up and listened in 1979 when the Shah was toppled in Iran and the Ayatollah Khomeini made his triumphal return from his exile in France.

Islam is the second largest world religion after Christianity and had some 750 million adherents in 1979. I don't know what the current figures are. Mahlia will help us, I am sure.

Mahlia, might one describe a mullah possibly as a learned cleric and teacher ? Now a question : since there is no hierarchy in Islam such as Christians know it, what is the "standing"- compared to the mullahs- of the muezzin who calls the faithful to prayer five times a day ? I have always wondered about that.

The NYT Sunday Magazine of 12/16 carries two interesting articles which may be accessible in the net : (1) "Whatever It Takes" by Matthew Brzezinski (about the leaders of Uzbekistan) and (2) "Naji's Taliban Phase" by Michael Finkel (about switching sides in Afghanistan). The madrasas (the religious schools in Pakistan from which the Taliban emerged in 1996) are mentioned in the article.

There is so much more to say but it is late, so I'll save further thoughts for tomorrow. Thank you for your contributions.

We do need information like this; even the experts don't know enough about Islam and the Islamic countries -- even though genuine attempts have been made, for example by the British explorer Richard Burton (1821-1890) who traveled widely in the Islamic world and is the translator of the Arabian Nights .

I will now retire to my sickbed and return tomorrow.

š jane›

Robby

PEACE ON EARTH 
AND 
END OF SUFFERING FOR ALL PEOPLES!