---Don Quixote ~ Cervantes ~ Volume I ~ 4/06 ~ Great Books
patwest
April 13, 2006 - 06:08 am


Don Quixote is the saga of a man at odds with the reality of his world as he pursues his impossible dream.

Cervantes has chosen this laughable madman as his unlikely "hero" to expose the foibles of his time and to send a cautionary message down through the ages from the Renaissance to us. But just what is this message?


CHAPTERS DATES
Chapters 50 - 51 June 28 - 29
Chapter 52 June 29 - 30
(Chapter 52 cont.) - Volume II, Dedication/Prologue July 1 - July 3
For Your Consideration
Part IV
Chapters 50 - 51
June 28 - June 30
Chapter 50~ "the learned discussion between Don Quixote and the cathedral priest, as well as other events"
1. Do you agree with Don Quixote's argument that reading the fictional books of chivalry for pleasure is good for one's physical and mental health?

2. Do you think women enjoyed these books of chivalry too? Does the tale of the Knight and the Lake in which beautiful women serve wonderfully prepared meals while "preserving their magical silence" sound like every man's fantasy?

3. How did you interpret the goatherd's comments about the nature of females? Is this how women were perceived in the books of chivalry? Did Cervantes hold this opinion?

4. What point might Cervantes be making regarding governance and responsibility in the conversation between Don Quixote and the cathedral priest regarding Sancho's abilities to lead?

Chapter 51 ~ "what the goatherd told all those who were bringing Don Quixote home"
1. Why do you think Cervantes introduced the goatherd, at the very end of his story? How important are these beautiful young maidens in the tale?

2. Does Cervantes still hold that fathers should let daughters choose husbands to their own liking following Leandra's poor judgment in choosing the arrogant soldier, Vincente?

3. Is there a reason the soldier took everything the beautiful maiden had except her honor? Why did her father take her to the convent? Was her fall her own fault?

4. Why does the goatherd scold his she-goat? Does he hold all females in contempt? Do you think Cervantes feels the same way about women? If not, what is he saying with this story?

Chapter 52~ "Don Quixote's fight with the goatherd, as well as his strange adventure with the flagellants, which with great effort he brought to a happy ending"
1. When Sancho asks Don Quixote "what demons have made you attack our Catholic faith," when he attacked the flagellating penitents, do you think this is the underlying message Cervantes wants to convey in this work?

2. Why is Don Quixote so anxious to get home that he climbs willingly into the cage on the oxcart?

3. Does Sancho believe that when Don Quixote goes home and is cured of his madness, they will start a new adventure? Do you think this is what happened?

4. Is it possible to follow the author's request to take the poems, eulogies and epitaphs at the end of this chapter seriously? What do they reveal about the adventures to follow? What are your expectations for Volume II? Will a ten year hiatus change Cervantes' viewpoint?

Related Links: DON QUIXOTE ELECTRONIC TEXT SEARCHABLE // Bio of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra//Interview with Translator, Edith Grossman// Rules of Chivalry and Courtly Love // Road Map - Follow the Don //Posting urls from other websites// Spanish Accent Marks//


Discussion Leaders: JoanP ~ Maryal(Deems)

PREVIOUS QUESTIONS:
Volume I, Part I Chapters I - VIII ~ Part II, Chapters IX - XIV
Part III, Chapters XV - XXVII ~Part IV, Chapters XXVIII - LII



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Joan Pearson
April 14, 2006 - 07:12 am
Dear Reader, Gentle Reader, Leisurely Reader,

Let's take a cue from Cervantes' own words and set a leisurely pace for Rocinante's poor tired old stablemates. Are you all comfortably mounted?

And let's avoid fried "dried" brains brought on by reading from sundown to dawn! We need to set a leisurely pace for ourselves as we begin our journey through this voluminous tome.

As tomorrow is a special, busy day for many of us, let's begin with the Prologue and get to know the author and his reasons for writing this book. On Tuesday we plan to begin discussion of the first six chapters.

And you, what are you hoping to learn about Cervantes and his "hero" during this excellent adventure? I'm looking forward to sharing this quest with ALL of you. Please feel free to come in whenever you find the time. These old mares ain't what they used to be. You won't have any trouble keeping up - or catching up with us.

We're off at last!

bluebird24
April 14, 2006 - 07:43 pm
love all picturesL) who is george chuishank and catalan and the spaniard? Joan thank you for dictionary you have here

gumtree
April 14, 2006 - 08:12 pm
I'm here -Just had to take a peek in - the pre discussion was fun so now for the real thing.

I'm not intimidated by the novel which is Cervantes gift to the world and I'm overjoyed to read it again especially at this stage of my life and in company with SN. Thanks to everyone who set this up.

Will consider the questions and come back.

1amparo
April 14, 2006 - 09:14 pm
G'day all, from not so sunny Adelaide, South Australia!

May I enter this discussion and keep quit while you all talk? I have love "El Quijote" from the very first time I read it, many years ago, in my native Spain. Don Quijote has been my hero ever since. And Sancho's colourful personality always makes me laugh! Needless to say it, I do have the book in Spanish language - modern and old.

April 2005 was the IV centenary of "EL INGENIOSO HIDALGO DON QUIJOTE DE LA MANCHA". "El Quijote" for short. And I must say: there are many chilvarious Quixotes on the loose... Thank God for that!!

Amparo.

kiwi lady
April 15, 2006 - 01:25 am
I just picked up my copy of Don Quixote today. It is a scholars edition and has lots of information attached to the book. I have not started it yet as I had a very exhausting day today - out all day gallivanting.

Carolyn

CathieS
April 15, 2006 - 04:30 am
Hola!

It's been a long, hard wait for this discussion to begin but we are finally here. I'm mounted and hope to keep saddle sores at bay.

Jan's posted interview was a perfect prelude last night and gave me a jolt of enthusiasm about getting started. Joan, I had to laugh because the comment you posted was precisely the one that interested me most of all, also. I didn't know at first what she meant but then she went to explain how ambiguous Cervantes is and how he is a bit deceptive.

1. What are your first impressions of the author and of his writing style? Do you feel at all intimidated by the novel or the man?

When I read the prologue, I felt the language was going to be a bit difficult.So many words to say one little thought. When I hit those poems, I was saying "Uh oh" to myself. But I tried to remember how I felt upon reading Eliot's prologue in MIDDLEMARCH and how that threw me, while I went on to enjoy the book immensely.But yes, after just the prologue and poems, I'm feeling a bit intimidated. Since I guess we are only talking about the prologue right now, that impression will have to stand till Tuesday. Will it change? Stay tuned!

My style is to answer one question, read some other responses, and then go on to the next. I don't like to answer everything all at one go- I like to draw out the pleasure.

Joan Grimes
April 15, 2006 - 04:44 am
Joan P,

Thanks for you invitation to visit this discussion and see if I have different opinion of this book than I had when I was in college. I will not be buying the book but will read the electronic text and read all the posts here. I will not be saying anything as I will be traveling in a couple of weeks and will not be able to keep up at all but will catch up on what you all have had to say when I return from Ireland on May 22. I am sure that reading the comments in this discussion will be worthwhile to me because the group assembled here is so outstanding. The enthusiasm is just great.

I am listing to the interview with Grossman now. Thanks for that link. It is very interesting.

Thanks again for letting me lurk.

Joan Grimes

Mippy
April 15, 2006 - 07:13 am
First Impression Time?
The book is off to a rollicking start, after this reader zoomed through the poetry.
Thank goodness we won't be tested
on the poetry, right?
I had expected a difficult text, although I love long novels, but the Grossman edition rolls merrily along.
Sure, there is an undercurrent of seriousness (gravadad), but so far, the humor (graciosico) is buoyant.
I'm so very glad your encouraging words, JoanP, brought me into this group!
Plus ditto: Thanks for the link to the Spanish/English dictionary.
Vale! (bye-bye, in both Latin and Spanish)

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 07:19 am
I was amused by the underhand references to Cervantes' personal life in the Prologue:

...like a man bred in a jail cell, where everything grates on youur nerves and every new sound makes you still sadder.

...you're the boss in your own house, like a king in charge of his tax-collectors.

...even if they can prove you're lying, they can't cut off the hand you wrote with.

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 07:25 am
The Raffel translation leaves out the poetry after the prologue. I don't think I'm sorry.

I'm a little intimidated by the size of this project, but also very enthusiastic and eager. So far I like reading the book, although I find I can't read it for long at a time.

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 08:18 am
Good morning, good morning to ALL. Ampero, you are welcome as can be. If ever you want to comment or simply say HI, please jump right in.

I apologize for my lateness in saying good morning. My email was not functioning and I missed Joan P's reminder (just read this morning) that today is officially opening day!!

I think my body is still on standard time. I know I slept until 10:00 this morning and am only now reading mail and catching up.

Someone, I think maybe Marni, mentioned in another discussion (Book Nook?) a short interview with Grossman who is one of our translators. It was on Australian public radio and I listened to it last night.

I will see if I can find the link. Those of you with a direct connection to the internet will have no trouble. I don't know how it plays if you are on a modem. It should be OK though since you use RealPlayer to hear it.

Maryal

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 08:30 am
I see that the Grossman interview is already in the heading. Sorry to be so confused. It's been a rocky road the last couple of weeks, but I think I see light at the end of the tunnel.

Bluebird--Cruikshank was an illustrator who did drawings to accompany the Quixote. He was one of Dickens' early illustrators.

Joan Grimes--Have a good trip. It is good that you will be checking in now and again.

Amparo--You have both the old Spanish and the modern Spanish editions. Wonderful. May we ask you questions if we get into trouble with all our various translations?

I have Grossman and really like it. It moves right along and she seems to have had fun translating it. She says in the interview that she had always liked Cervantes but that having translated the Quixote, she liked him even more.

I am reading a biography of Cervantes that I started yesterday while the car was having its oil change. Turned out to be quite a wait so I got a bit of reading done. Tried to mark the interesting bits and will bring them here when they seem applicable. We know considerably more about Cervantes life than we do of Shakespear's which is interesting because they were contemporaries.

Maryal

Joan Pearson
April 15, 2006 - 09:23 am
Bluebird was the first to post this morning - our early bird! And full of questions right out of the gate! "Cataluna" - we need to get a map of Cervantes' La Mancha - like the one in the front of the Raffel translation. I couldn't find one on the web, can you? Maybe I'll scan the one in the book if no one can find one.

A big WELCOME to you, Amparo, Carolyn and JoanG! You each bring interesting perspectives and we look forward to hearing from you whenever you can find the time. The advantage of moving slowly - we'll be here for some time. The only thing I worry about is that we might lose those who feel the need to move ahead. You don't know what's lurking on the road ahead. Safety in numbers, you know.

Mippy pointed out the link to the Spanish/English dictionary in the header. I just used it and learned that AMPARO means "protection." I think we need to stick close to you, Amparo.

Maryal, there you are! Was afraid to go off too far without you. Last night in the Book Nook Scootz referred to the Edith Grossman interview and Jan provided the link. It's in the header here - I hope you are able to hear it. What a pleasant voice. And she is madly in love with the book. Says that IF Don Quixote is not the greatest novel ever written, it is certainly in the top five. (Raffel thinks it is the greatest.)

So. Size of the book intimidates, but not the language? And the poetry is a bit much? I thought that it was Raffel's translation that made it so understandable...conversational, but now I hear from you that Grossman's reads the same way - except that she includes the poetry and Raffel does not.

I'd like to hear a bit about the poetry. Am wondering why Raffel thought fit to leave it out and Grossman included it. Will you describe the poetry for those of us without? Is it poetry Cervantes wrote to "decorate" his prologue? Is it poetry written by his contemporary poets, or maybe by his friends. the plasters and carpenters?

Pat H - I read that Cervantes may have written this prologue during one of the times he was imprisoned - so he knew first-hand when he wrote about a jail grating on one's nerves. Makes you wonder what else he knows first hand. Are you expecting this to be "autobiographical" in a sense?

JoanK
April 15, 2006 - 10:40 am
AMPARO!! WELCOME, WELCOME! I really miss talking with you in Latin! But now you can bring your spark to this discussion. Hooray!

Pat says the Raffel translation is funny. Maybe I'll switch from Grossman. Or maybe it's me. I don't find the book funny at all, just sad and pathetic. Am I turning into a grouch in my old age? No, no -- someone say something funny and save me.

CathieS
April 15, 2006 - 10:52 am
JoanP-

About the poetry- Here's a small example of a poem. It is done in a form known as versos de cabo rato in which the lines have unfinished endings. I found this at first fun to figure out the endings, and then it just got old!

excerpt for DON QUIXOTE, by Cervantes



URGANDA THE UNRECOGNIZED

If to reach goodly read-

oh book, you proceed with cau-,

you cannot, by the fool-,

be called a stumbling nin-.

But if you are too impa-

and pull the loaf untime-

from the fire and go careen-

into the hands of the dim-

you'll see them lost and puzz-

though they long to appear learn-.

JoanK- it is funny AND it is sad and pathetic all at the same time. You're not turning into an old grouch.

OT- for anyone interested, I added my picture (with hub) to my profile (click my name) and also sent another one on to Pat to put in BookNook. Hope you like them.

JoanK
April 15, 2006 - 10:57 am
SCOOTZ: YOU'RE GORGEOUS!

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 11:01 am
Hmm, Joan, I was thinking of maybe switching to Grossman.

There is a lot of understated dry humor in the prologue. I don't want to talk about it until we get to the actual story, but indeed, some things were funnier to people then than they are now. But remember that Grossman said in her interview that you can never trust your first reaction to Cervantes, and hang in there for a while.

No one who knows you could call you a grouch.

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 11:10 am
My Spanish edition of Don Q has footnotes with the completed truncated words. It doesn't really improve the poems.

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 11:31 am
JoanP's question: "Is it poetry Cervantes wrote to "decorate" his prologue? Is it poetry written by his contemporary poets, or maybe by his friends. the plasters and carpenters?"
_____________________


The prefactory poems are by all different fictional people. For example, there's one by Amadis of Gaul who according to my footnote was the hero of the most famous of the Renaissance novels of chivalry. The poem is titled "Amadis of Gaul to Don Quixote of La Mancha" A Sonnet.

So in the case of that poem, we have Cervantes writing in the voice of a fictional character (Amadis) that all his readers would be familiar with to his hero, Don Quixote.

Another is "Lady Oriana to Dulcinea of Toboso" A Sonnet. The footnote tells us that Oriana was the lady-love of Amadis. Here's the sonnet:

Oh, if only, beauteous Dulcinea,
for greater ease and peace I had my castle,
Miraflores, in Toboso; could change
its London for the comforts of your town!
Oh, if only your desire and your dress
adorned my soul and body, I could see
the famous knight you made so fortunate
in unequal combat with his enemies!
Oh, if only I chasely might escape
Sir Amadis, as you did Don Quixote,
that courteous and noble errant knight!
Then I'd be the envied, not the envying,
and melancholy time would turn to joy,
and I'd delight in pleasures without end.


This sonnet shows us the flowery language of the day, even in translation. The "message" boils down to. . . .I, Oriana, love of Amadis, would give anything in the world to look like you so that Don Quixote would fall in love with me and make me happy.

One more when I get back.

Maryal

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 11:41 am
One of my favorites. Here's a dialogue between Babieca, the horse of El Cid and Rocinante, the horse of Don Quixote.

"Dialogue Between Babieca and Rocinante"
A Sonnet

B. Why is it, Rocinante, that you're so thin?
R. Too little food, and far too much hard labor.
B. But what about your feed, your oats and hay?
R. My master doesn't leave a bite for me.
B. Well, Senor, you lack of breeding shows
because your ass's tongue insults your master.
R. He's the ass, from the cradle to the grave.
Do you want proof? See what he does for love.
B. Is it foolish to love? R. It's not too smart.
B. You're a philosopher. R. I just don't eat
B And do you complain of the squire? R. Not enough.
How can I complain despite my aches and pains
if master and squire, or is it majordomo,
are nothing but skin and bone, like Rocinante?


Notice that lines 9, 10, and 11 are made up of half lines, one half by each horse. I have a space in my post but don't know how to put one the way it shows up. Sorry. Where's PAT? Help PAT!

~Maryal

ALF
April 15, 2006 - 11:55 am
No horsing around for me, at last I am ready to embark on our journey with DQ.
I love the Author’s Preface as he summons us forth and unapologetically introduces us to his child (step.) He asks of “the ancient lawgiver they call public” “what could this sterile, ill tilled wit of mine beget but the story of a dry, shriveled, whimsical offspring, full of thought of all sorts: - just what might be begotten in prison! Do we know, for sure, if M. Cervantes wrote DQ when he was incarcerated?
I can understand one’s acute desire to indulge in stretching their “imagination” during such a time. Truly, who would not wish for idealism vs. the reality of a meager existence behind bars? The more whimsical and peculiar, the better, I believe. If imagination is utilized, there are no boundaries, no bars holding you back; it’s all an unpredictable account of whatever you chose to relate, with whomever you chose to accompany you. Don Q and Sancho P begins.

Why does he chastise himself for his work? He claims it’s devoid of invention, unadorned, wanting in learning and wisdom, and unlike the books of the times. Did he really feel that way or was it his subtle way of challenging the reader?

Who was this friend, this advisor who urged him to forego melancholy and write with humor?

ALF
April 15, 2006 - 11:57 am

KleoP
April 15, 2006 - 11:58 am
I'm ready. Will I get to use the word anabasis in here? We read The Good Soldier Svejk in my Authors of the Lost Generation book club and one of the participants was actually able to use this word later on while discussing Dr. Zhivago. What a coup!

I have my vocabulary down, I'm ready for the Don.

Do I find the book intimidating? Know, Cervantes is inviting us to join him on an insider's journey into poking fun.

Kleo

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 12:02 pm
Why, Kleo! You've already used anabasis, you clever thing you. The word I'm looking for a place to use is hegemony since it is everywhere these days.

Hey Andy!, grab an old nag and mount up like the rest of us. I have chosen to ride El Cid's horse, a slightly upscale version of Rocinante. Heh.

Maryal

ALF
April 15, 2006 - 12:08 pm
I enjoyed the Sonnets, but feel that perhaps later on in the story I will enjoy them more. (Once I know who is who.) Love the 2 horses gabbing and philosphising.

CathieS
April 15, 2006 - 02:12 pm
ALF- It was stated in the Grossman interview that Cervantes wrote part of this book while in prison. I hope my memory is correct there. If not, someone can correct me.

5. What did you find of particular interest or significance in the prologue?

The fact that most of the prologue is more about writing the prologue than being a prologue. That he writes about wanting to have an unadorned book, all the while asking how to adorn it. I see lots of contradictions, tongue in cheek sort of things. I find it very wry, actually. Cervantes seems to belittle himself and his book, and tries to tell us that it's not a story but a real history that he is recounting.

hegeso
April 15, 2006 - 03:14 pm
Does it help to know that he wrote the prologue after the publication of book I? Of course he did so. I don't think anybody could write a prologue to a still unwritten book. It is analogous with composing the ouverture to an opera, and it is well known that it is the last part the composer tackles, because it has to contain the significant elements of the opera, but the composer doesn't know which ones they are before getting through the whole thing.

There are some funny but authentic anecdotes about composing ouvertures after the whole opera was written. One is about Rossini, whose ouverture to "Wilhelm Tell" was still not done at the morning of the premiere. He wrote it down still lying in bed, probably while consuming his ample breakfast, and the pages still wet with ink were torn out of his hands to be forwarded to the members of the orchestra.

The other one is about the ouverture to Mozart's "Don Giovanni". His friends locked him up on an upper floor of the villa Bertramka near Prague for the night before the premiere, with a generous supply of food and drink. Then, an afterthought: they realized that something else would be needed, and I don't know by what trick they hauled up, through the window, a chamber pot.

Both ouvertures are magnificent, by the way.

Jan
April 15, 2006 - 03:38 pm
Easter Sunday, and a day for being social, but I just wanted to show my face in here. I have no book till Tuesday, I think the Librarian would have thrown something at me if I'd asked for a book to be taken out of storage on such a hectic day as Thursday.

I'm still intrigued by translations and how one could be funnier than the other. Also how much leeway they have while sticking to Cervantes words and staying true to the story? People who know the book would have such expectations.It would take a huge inner confidence, and self-belief. That "best book ever written" spectre-wow! I'm trying to remember-was it in Carol Shield's Unless that it was said that one word alone could take days? Or perhaps it was here.

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 04:19 pm
Deems, is that Grossman's translation of the dialogue between Rocinante and Babieca? It's awfully good. I liked it enough that I decided to try translating the Spanish (not into poetry, just prose). It took a while--the Spanish in the poem is harder than the text, and it takes longer if you can't skip any words when you get the idea. The poem loses nothing in translation except for a pun in the last line. The translation says that master and squire

"are nothing but skin and bones, like Rocinante"

Rocinante's name comes from rocin, which means a broken-down old work horse. In the sonnet, this word is used to refer to the master and squire:

"son tan rocines como Rocinante."

They are as "rocin" as Rocinante.

I wish my Spanish was a better. It would be great to read the whole thing in Spanish.

CathieS
April 15, 2006 - 04:47 pm
Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Rocinante? I'm clueless.

1amparo
April 15, 2006 - 05:15 pm
You can try:

RO as in ROman

CIN as in THIN

AN as in ANt

TE as TErm

Cheers,

Amparo.

1amparo
April 15, 2006 - 06:09 pm
To read and understand Cervantes Sancho’s in his native Spanish-“Manchego” language would have anyone loving the book so much more. Sancho is Don Quixote’s guardian angel. While D. Quijote actions and believes leaves the reader pondering, Sancho leaves us with belly-ache from laughter. He uses the everyday idiom of his area: La Mancha, (New Castile, or “Castilla la Nueva” as we call it) not every Spaniard from the cities, or north or south Spain will understand him, hence will miss the subtleness, “spicy” and also precise words of Sancho’s vocabulary. I was fortunate to spend holidays in the area, I still visit relatives there. Believe me, many a times I had to put down the book to give my belly-ache a rest –regardless of how many times I read the it.

Cheers, and apologies from intruding.

Amparo

Pat H
April 15, 2006 - 06:59 pm
Amparo--that's not intruding, you are encouraging me to make the extra effort to read at least parts of the book in Spanish. I hope you will correct anything I say that is wrong, and fill in things the rest of us miss.

Deems
April 15, 2006 - 07:14 pm
Pat H--Yes, the poems above are Grossman's translation. She's very good, I think. I say this because of the rhythm of the language, the way the sentences go. I don't know Spanish.

Amparo--I'm delighted that you are helping us to pronounce some things. Please do help. It is hard to read a work and not know how the names should sound. We're going to have the same problem when we get to Dulcinea.

Maryal

1amparo
April 15, 2006 - 09:47 pm
Well, we Spaniards say: Dul-ci-ne-a and pronunced it as:

Dul: as in "Dr. DOOLittle"

ci: as THIn

ne: as in NEcessary

a: as in Apology.

Cheers

Amparo

kiwi lady
April 15, 2006 - 11:06 pm
I have a scholars version. There is a huge amount of information preceding the prologue.

This translation is by Samuel Putnam.

According to this translator Spanish people today probably have the same difficulty reading Don Quixote as many people find with Shakespeare. He says that there is a huge amount of the Andelusian dialect of the time in the book.

He also says it is alongside the bible as one of the most well known books in the world and one of the most translated books in the world. However few people actually have read it in total.

According to this source Cervantes was having great difficulty doing his prologue and mentioned to his friend the book had no great poetry before each chapter like many great books and he did not have enough knowledge to put clever annotations in the margin referring back to great writers etc. His friend laughed and advised him to just make up his poetry and that is what in fact happened.As for Latin quotes his friend advised him just to use all the Latin quotes he had learned in school. I am interested to see whether Cervantes did this and whether the quotes bore any relation to the meaning of Cervantes work in the context in which they were used if indeed they were used.

Carolyn

gumtree
April 15, 2006 - 11:17 pm
It has always stayed in my mind that when John Steinbeck sent the East of Eden manuscript to his publisher he chose to quote Cervantes in his covering letter - Steinbeck also expresses his view of the function of a prologue. I think it worth quoting here...

"I have decided for this, my book, East of Eden, to write dedication, prologue, argument, apology, epilogue and perhaps epitaph all in one...As you know, a prologue is written last but placed first to explain the book's shortcomings and to ask the reader to be kind. But a prologue is also a note of farewell from the writer to his book. For years the writer and his book have been close together - then suddenly the book is done. It is a kind of death. This is the requiem.

"Miguel Cervantes invented the modern novel and with his Don Quijote set a mark high and bright. In his prologue, he said best what writers feel - the gladness and The terror

" 'Idling reader' Cervantes wrote, 'you may believe me when I tell you that I should have liked this book which is the child of my brain, to be The fairest, The sprightliest and The cleverest that could be imagined, but I have not been able to contravene the law of nature which would have it that like begets like-'

"And so it is with me, Pat...although some times I have felt that I held fire in my hands and spread a page with shining - I have never lost the weight of clumsiness, of ignorance, of aching inability.

"Cervantes ends his prologue... and says to the reader: 'May God give you health - and may He be not unmindful of me, as well.' " John Steinbeck, Journal of a Novel, Pan Books 1972

I think Cervantes is asking his reader not to judge him too harshly and to remember that he is a man like other men and who, like Steinbeck, (and heaps of other writers) has struggled to bring his story into the light.

CathieS
April 16, 2006 - 04:23 am
1amparo-

Thanks so much for the pronunciations. Ci as Th- I would have never done that in a million years so I'm glad I asked. And glad you're here to give us some invaluable help.

I can see already it's going to be a challenge here with multiple translations- but fun!

In the slide show above, I much prefer the Picasso rendering of DQ and SP. Perhaps because it's the most familiar to me? Not sure, but it's my fave. I can't figure out the Heiter one- looks like an amoeba to me.

Joan Pearson
April 16, 2006 - 05:35 am
"I'm still intrigued by translations and how one could be funnier than the other. Also how much leeway they have while sticking to Cervantes words and staying true to the story?"
An interesting observation, Jan. I'm wondering the same thing about some of the translators' decisions. Thanks for taking the time to type out the poems included in your translations, Scootz, Maryal - they are good examples of the author's sense of humor and the way his mind worked. I understand now that he wrote them himself - to "decorate" his prologue. I am still trying to grasp why they are not found in the Raffel translation. Does Smollett include them? WHY would anyone have the audacity to make the decision NOT to include them if Cervantes wrote them to include in his prologue?

Scootz, the Heiter graphic in the rotating cube in the header is from the cover of the Raffel translation. I puzzled over it too, but the movement seems to illustrate Don's frantic attempts to overcome adversity, doesn't it? Looks like Roc(th?)inante has been spurred on to a feverish pitch to match the Don's. It's my hunch Guillermo Heiter's rendering of the pair was selected for the cover to emphasize Burton Raffel's "contemporary" treatment of the story. I'm reminded of so many of today's productions of Shakespeare's plays, which have been "translated" into different settings"- more contemporary periods, to make them more accessible, more understandable to today's audiences who may have trouble understanding the "English" - as Carolyn suggests. I can't tell you when I've seen any pure renditions of Shakespeare's plays - as he wrote them.

Cervantes is quoted somewhere within this work - (this is found in my introduction, I really haven't read beyond the first six chapters, honest!) - that "most vernacular translations are like looking at Flemish tapestries on the wrong side." That description stuck in my mind. We are fortunate to have so many sources available to us. The more translations - and TRANSLATORS, the richer our discussion. Amparo please don't ever feel you are intruding. Au contraire! You are our "protector" - our guide and we rely on YOU to protect us from unwelcome intruders along the way.

The one thing that I hope does not happen is that we get so bogged down in translation, that we miss the magic of the message. I feel confident with this group that this will not happen. "Wry" is a good way to describe the writing style, Scootz. I believe that will come through no matter which translation we're reading.

Gumtree (at some point you will have to describe a "gumtree" and your choice of the name and if you mind an abbreviation to "Gum") - thank you so much for your comments on the Prologue. I haven't formed an opinion yet about the timing of Cervantes' writing of this prologue. Scootz, I read the same information that you did - that it is believed that he wrote it while in prison, but also that he wrote it following the publication of PART I - before he wrote Part II. I'm not sure when, but I thought that was significant when I read it, Hegeso - not after he had written the entire book, Part I and II. Part I was an immediate "best seller" - and yet Cervantes felt the need to call on his reader to judge his "stepchild" for its worth. I'm wondering why he feels the need to include a prologue in the next publication in which Part II is included...since Part I was so well received without it?

Did you get the impression that the unnamed "friend" in the Prologue might be Sancho Panza, Andy? I know we haven't been introduced to Sancho yet, but I got that feeling in his glowing description of Don Quixote as "that shining light, that true mirror of knight errantry." I had to wonder if anyone else in the story looks at our Don in this way.

"Your pages make sad men laugh as they read and make smiling men even happier." (Prologue) JoanK, you are now our official comicality tester. You must admit to any laughs - or smiles that occur during your reading. We will all have to decide whether this is comedy or tragedy, but certainly not yet!

Gosh, I've taken up too much of your time...but you are posting such stimulating stuff that begs comment! I never did get telling you about that which I find intimidating about Cervantes - will have to wait until tomorrow.
In the meantime, I wish you all a wonderful, joy-filled, peaceful day!

Deems
April 16, 2006 - 08:35 am
Thank you, Amparo, for the pronunciation of Dulcinea. I wouldn't have come up with DOOL for the first syllable, or THI for the second. You are invaluable. Stay backstage if you want, but please come out when we need help.

JoanP reminds us not to get too bogged down and I agree. I think also that we probably need not to worry too much about when Cervantes wrote the Prologue since there's a whole story about Part II and why it is published ten years later that we won't get to for some time.

As for why Raffel wouldn't translate the poems, I have no idea, but I do wonder how many of the other translators chose not to do so.

The poems are not at all necessary for an understanding of the story. Perhaps that fact enters in. Perhaps Raffel realized that the modern reader would have little idea what to do with the poems and didn't want to discourage readers. I'm guessing here.

~Maryal

JoanK
April 16, 2006 - 10:55 am
Maryal: I had the same thought. I'm glad you disentangled the two horses. I was really confused about that.

I like the Picasso drawing best too, although Daumier is right behind.

I love that description of what a prologue is. I'm not sure Cervantes was apologizing to his readers. Maybe he was apologizing to himself.

Official comicality tester? Hmmm. I'd better go and warm up my smile muscles.

KleoP
April 16, 2006 - 11:37 am
That bothers me, too, that the translator would opt out of translating part of the book. Geeze.

A gumtree is a Eucalyptus, a member of the Myrtaceae or Myrtle Family that dominates the native flora of Australia and New Zealand, although not all species of eucs are called gumtrees. We use the word in California because the gumtrees in California are a serious fire hazard and threat to the native flora as the Monterey Pine (Pinus radiata) is a threat to the native flora of New Zealand.

The word is used also for Liquidambar, the Sweetgum, of the Altingiaceae, a very popular street tree in the USA with beautiful fall color, or Nyssa, or tupelos, of the Cornaceae (or Nyssaceae) or Dogwood Family, that is also a beautiful fall color ornamental. Liquidambar has a resinous gum called storax used as a fixative in perfumes. Tupelo is famous for its honey made in Florida.

Kleo

kiwi lady
April 16, 2006 - 01:03 pm
The poems appear in total in my translation. I presume mine is a British academic translation especially for study as the notes are very detailed in my copy. I must admit having these poems at the beginning of the book is very daunting to a reader like me who is doing this book as an exercise not because it is a book I would have chosen to read.

Carolyn

hegeso
April 16, 2006 - 04:04 pm
Smollett doesn't include the poems in the prologue.

Pat H
April 16, 2006 - 05:21 pm
In addition to the Raffel translation, JoanK and I own another, which I think my father bought used in the 1920s. It’s a large book, pages 9 1/2 by 12 1/4 in, and has about 180 of Dore’s illustrations. There is neither publication date nor copyright date, but a previous owner signed the first page, in a beautiful script, with the date October 27, 1898.

You have to look hard for the translator, mentioned in a footnote in the biographical note. "The English text of ‘Don Quixote’ adopted in this edition is that of Jarvis, with occasional corrections from Motteaux’ translation. A few objectionable words and sentences, in no way necessary to the beauty and completeness of the work, have been omitted."

It leaves out the poems after the prologue, too. Maybe it’s often done. The translation is neither accurate nor particularly appealing otherwise, so I will ignore it and enjoy the pictures. I’ve already spotted an omission, though.

KleoP
April 16, 2006 - 06:52 pm
PatH, I would be inclined to read it just for the Dore pictures accompanying the text and the thought that other generations before you read and enjoyed the book with those texts. Please disregard my comments critical of translators omitting the poems while you enjoy your translation of Don Quixote with pictures.

I think the poems set the tone for the Don's adventures, sarcastic and without respect. But there's something else to them that I can't quite grasp.

Kleo

1amparo
April 16, 2006 - 06:53 pm
Carolyn, do believe me; there is no dialect andaluz/andalusian in the Spanish El Quijote. Think about it: would Cervantes have written such dialect on a story where all the action happens in La Mancha area…? Look at the geography; what a blunder it would have been!!! No, the original has lots of everyday idiom of the area (thanks to Sancho’s vocabulary). Even today, old people of La Mancha speak so. And the most beautiful Castilian-Spanish language thanks to Don Quixote. And towns that at the times the book was written were little villages and hamlets, now they even have universities.

Could have been that Putnam, scratching his head at some of the idiom, and considering that Cervantes had lived some years in Sevilla, (as tax collector that put him in jail) could had thought the idiom to be andaluz…?

Here are links which have the choice of English, some of you might find interesting of Castilla – La Mancha and Dulcinea’s Toboso (a true town).

http://www.castillalamancha.es/turismo/SP/Portada/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Toboso

Cheers mate.

Amparo

Pat H
April 16, 2006 - 07:26 pm
Kleo, I can have the best of both worlds: reading my text, and looking at the pictures in the other, reading when I feel like it.

kiwi lady
April 16, 2006 - 07:44 pm
Amparo I was just relaying a remark by the translator of my edition of the book. I would not personally have any idea what language was used in the original.

Carolyn

1amparo
April 16, 2006 - 08:25 pm
Sorry mate, I was not having a go at you personally, just the translator.

Well, I finally had the time to read all post... I have been away for many weeks and so many things to catch up with!

HELLOOOO JOANK!!!! Glad to "see" you too my friend. Don't be put off reading the book; I once tried to read an English translation of D. Quixote, felt so outraged at the appalling translation that I sent the book flying across the place as far as I could. Cervantes prose is beautiful beyond words, but... for some (translators) as the movie says, get: "Lost in Translation".

Link to map Castilla La Mancha

http://www.mju.es/objecion/mapcasma.htm

Good luck to all!

Amparo

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 17, 2006 - 03:10 am
For me, the French translation is like music to my ears. I don't read Spanish, so I can't compare with the original, but I think Ms Schulman did the Don justice translating it. If you could just say this aloud, you will see what I mean:

"De Donoso, poète intrus, à Sancho Panza

Moi, Sancho Panza, l'écuyer
de don Quichotte de la Manche,
pour goûter un peu les dimanches,
toujours je me suis esquivé
car, comme dit la Célestine
qui pourrait être plus discrète,
mais me semble pourtant divine,
il n'est qu'une seule recette:
prendre la poudre d'esscampette,
et tant pis pour la bonne mine"


This just rolls off the tongue merrily and you laugh out loud at the freshness of the rhymes.

I don't have the English version but he says something like this:

"From Donoso, intrusive poet, to Sancho Panza

Me, Sancho Panza, Horseman of Don Quixote de la Mancha, in order to enjoy Sundays a little, always I had to sneak away, because, as Célestine says, who could be more discreet, but seems rather divine, the only way is to run away and just too bad for the those who don’t like it."

Éloïse

1amparo
April 17, 2006 - 04:16 am
And when the times come, any of you interested on following the adventures via the routes taken, here they are. Hopefully in English. The menu on the left has the routes "T1", "T2" ect., and it shows in large form.

Actually, this is the first time I have seen their travelling roads. I find them very fascinating for I know some of the areas oh so well!

Enjoy!

http://www.donquijotedelamancha2005.com/ruta2005.php

Ah! Eloise trés bien!

Amparo

Hats
April 17, 2006 - 06:06 am
Good morning JoanP, Deems and All!

1. What are your first impressions of the author and of his writing style? Do you feel at all intimidated by the novel or the man?

I am very intimidated about this book. The size alone, 900 pages makes me frightened. I am dependent on all for help. Beginning with the Prologue relaxes me. I can feel the author's anxieties about writing the Prologue and the book. The author's worries have awakened my empathy. I feel for him. I want him to succeed. This is a large task for any author to accomplish. Thank goodness, now I am not thinking of myself. In order to know whether the author succeeds I will need to read the book. At least, the author knows a friendly adviser. That makes me feel relaxed too.

Amparo, thank you for the map link.

Joan Pearson
April 17, 2006 - 06:24 am
Good morning, everyone!
Eloise, there you are! Delighted the rhymes roll merrily" off your tongue in French! Will you be reading aloud then? Bien venue!

Ahhh, a road map! - you can zero in and enlarge it and everything! Thanks, Amparo! Will put it into the pool of related links in the header right now! I'm going to admit this to you - something that drives my husband crazy - I'm a terrible map reader. Will rely on you all to point out the obvious...when we get on the road. (Actually, it would help if you located us on the map right now as we prepare to set out. Tramo I? Or?)

JoanK - let's change your role to official "comicality meter rather than "tester" - does that take off some of the pressure?

What if anything made you smile in the Prologue? Forget the poems...as a number of translators have done so (thanks Hegeso for the information on Smollett who also omitted them in his translation..and thank you PatH for reporting their omission in the early, delightfully illustrated Jarvis translation.)

Let's stick to the schedule and sit here in the inn just one more day and natter about the prologue as others catch up with us after a busy weekend. There's so much in the Prologue, I don't think that will be a problem. Tomorrow we'll move on down the road into the first six chapters. Remember that once we get started, you are always welcome to refer to previous chapters, but we ask you not to go ahead. It's just too dangerous out there.

Hats, just see your post now...and really want address to the "intimidation" factor with you - and Cervantes attempt to put us at ease. Coffee first. Need to dilute the sugar - OD'ed on jelly beans yesterday! Will be right back...

gumtree
April 17, 2006 - 06:48 am
Morning Joan P - you're up early - I'm about to go to bed! Please keep right on calling me 'Gum' it always gives me a smile.

I chose 'gumtree' because the gum is such an icon of our country. I see Kleo has filled you in botanically (thanks Kleo) The gums really are dominant right across the continent they're mostly tall and graceful, fairly large trees with a high canopy and range from smaller species to the giants of the forest. The Karri (E diversicolor) often grows to 300 feet with a girth to match and is restricted to a small area in the South West - as is the Tuart. I love them all and their common names are fun too - stringybark, blackbutt, ironbark, sugargum, spotted gum, red rivergum, maiden's gum, bloodwood and snowgum - even the peppermint is a gum. What all this has to do with Don Quixote I don't know except to say that some years ago 'they' experimented with a plantation of Eucalypts in Spain -

On to the inclusion/exclusion of the poems - I see the 1770 Motteux version does not have the poems while William Starkie 1950s does. Edith Grossman says in her interview that Cervantes destroyed the Romance of Chivalry. So even though the poems were written later I wonder if Cervantes was out to debunk the practice of authors having influential folk composing sonnets in praise of their work. On the other hand he may have been subjected to so much flak for not writing them that he decided just to silence the critics - but overall I don't think it really matters so very much.

Amparo - G'Day and thanks for the links to the maps.

And so to bed...

CathieS
April 17, 2006 - 06:49 am
I don't understand the meaning of "under cover of my cloak I can kill the king." What is meant by this "old saying" and how does it relate to me as the reader of this prologue?

I didn't have anything make me smile in the prologue; that comes later.

Off to garden with Colby while it's still coolish. Back later.

Joan Pearson
April 17, 2006 - 07:13 am
You make an important point, Hats - while the size of the novel is intimidating the author's invitation to his readers to act his "friendly advisors" (love that description!) is irresistible! We are not only his judges, we are friendly ones at that. As you say, he has also aroused our empathy.

Maybe if I describe to you my own intimidation factor, you will be able to set my mind at ease...

I am intimidated (and puzzled) about the author's familiarity with so many great literary works. I'm rather ashamed that I am not on his level and worry that he will go over my head, despite his protestations that he doesn't know much. Two things puzzle me about this -
Cervantes was born in 1547 in poverty. He seems to have had no formal education, yet in this Prologue, he reveals familiarity with Aristotle, Plato, Scriptures, Horace, Cato, Cicero... He's about 50 years old now - and somehow has turned himself into one of the world's greatest novelists. How? Are we to assume that he has read widely on his own? Come to think of it - what do we know about the availability of books at this time? The printing press in the mid 15th century made books more readily available - but to whom? Shakespeare, his contemporary - was of a good family in Stratford and he had a solid education as a young man. But Cervantes?

The other thing that puzzles me - from the Prologue we learn that Cervantes is writing this book to parody the tales of chivalry, popular at the time. Again I have to admit that I always thought of the Arthurian tales - the Green Knight - as "virtuous" - moralistic - the good guy always wins the fair lady. Why does Cervantes put them down? Because they are not realistic, with magic potions, wizards, Ex Caliber?
"Keep yourself focused on demolishing the whole false, irrational network of those chivalric romances, despised by so many, yet adored by so many more."
I have to admit, that I have "adored" those that I read and wonder what the rest of you thought when you hear them put down as "despicable?
And good morning to you, Gum and Scootz - just see your posts now. Scootz brings another question to the table -
"I don't understand the meaning of "under cover of my cloak I can kill the king." What is meant by this "old saying" and how does it relate to me as the reader of this prologue?"
Plenty to talk about this morning! Aren't we fortunate to have one another on this trail? Thinking out loud and having others answer? This is no small thing! Thank you!

Hats
April 17, 2006 - 07:35 am
"This is no small thing." I know. Scootz promised to leave a trail of crumbs for me. Scootz???

ALF
April 17, 2006 - 08:22 am
JoanP. I too loved all of the Arthurian tales. Weren't they exactly what Cervantes has written about in Don Q- The great Knights Errant? They were the audacious, brave lionhearts of yesteryear who righted every worng, gave succor to the distressed and valiantly went on unafraid. King Arthur's noble knights, isn't that what Don Q is akin to ?

Deems
April 17, 2006 - 08:46 am
Too much to catch up with in all your comments! And me hung over from too much Easter dinner--not jelly beans but real food, and way too much of it.

First and most important. Maybe some translators left the poems out because they were worried about putting off the contemporary reader who was not used to the conventions of Cervantes day of elaborate front material. It would have been funny to C's original readers--this book became wildly popular--but like all jokes, it has dated for contemporary readers who almost have to do research to get the point.

Second most important point: We shouldn't be intimidated by the 900 pages. Don Quixote is really two novels. Keep that in mind. Part I is published in 1605, part II in 1615 TEN years later. Two novels about the same characters.

Contemporary comparison: Little Women and Jo's Boys, both fairly long novels put together in one book.

Amparo, thank you for the maps! Something that Grossman said in her interview is also pertinent to the point of the Spanish language at the time of Cervantes. She says that Spanish has changed far less from the language of Cervantes to present-day Spanish than English has changed from the time of Shakespeare to the present.

Given that we can all understand much of Shakespeare, especially if we see the plays acted, and that reading Shakespeare is not like reading Chaucer in Middle English, I think Grossman's comparison is useful. English has changed more than Spanish in the intervening centuries. Remember that Cervantes and Shakespeare were contemporaries.

All I have time for at the moment though I am itching to pick up JoanP's question as to how or when Cervantes became familiar with so many writers!

As for the romances that Cervantes (and always gently) makes fun of, there is a whole tradition of them from Cretien de Troyes down to his time. They were wildly popular and very much like each other as author imitated author.

Maryal

CathieS
April 17, 2006 - 08:59 am
Scootz promised to leave a trail of crumbs for me. Scootz???



Gadzooks! I forgot! Ok, henceforth, a trail of crumbs for fair maiden to follow. Onward!

..................................... <therewith, said crumbs

Hats
April 17, 2006 - 09:02 am
That is a relief. I might just make this looooong journey.

Deems
April 17, 2006 - 10:43 am
Cervantes: A Biography by William Byron

I quickly checked this book to see if I could find some information about Cervantes' education.

Here's some information I think is relevant:

"He reached school age in 1554 or 1555 and, while no documentary evidence has so far been found to place him in school anywhere as a boy, he almost certainly received some early education and Cordoba is the likeliest place for that to have happened.

"Objections, based largely on the documentary void, that he may not have set foot in a classroom until he was nearly twenty years old are difficult to accept. True, he could have learned to read at home, as his sisters did. A boy who avidly read 'even scraps of paper in the street' [Don Quixote, Part I, Chap. 4] could conceivably have taught himself rudimentary Latin. We are reminded that the mature Cervantes was a dilettante, an opsimath, self-educated and embarrassed by the fact. He made occasional mistakes in his classical allusions. His Latin was shaky. His knowledge of Latin literature, though wide, was chiefly drawn from Spanish translations. His background in philosophy was at best unsystematic and eclectic. In short, little can be seen in his work of the formal dialectical structure that gave erudite writing of the day its surface authority. The prologue to Part One of the Quixote even pokes uneasy fun at academic pretensions."


Hope that helps, JoanP, and remember scholars assume that Shakespeare attended school in Statford because his father was a merchant and there was a school for merchant's sons. I don't think there are any existing records of his attendance.

Maryal

Deems
April 17, 2006 - 11:05 am
I meant to go just a little further with my quote from Cervantes.

"Yet he would turn up in Madrid in 1567 as an advanced student in a Madrid academy, which presupposes some previous training in the humanities. From that period, too, would date the first of his poems to come down to us and they show a familiarity with classical mythology and a technical sophistication one is reluctant to attribute to private reading alone. Cervantes' dilettantism can more easily be explained by incomplete schooling than by none at all."

Maryal

Pat H
April 17, 2006 - 11:20 am
"The prologue to Part I ...pokes uneasy fun at academic pretensions."

Many of the quotes the author's friend offers him are attributed to the wrong authors. Raffel supplies the correct authors in parentheses. That seems to me to be a pretty subtle joke, since the Spanish version doesn't supply this (the editors do, though, in footnotes). You would only get the joke if you recognized the quote.

JoanK
April 17, 2006 - 11:21 am
G'day to you too, Amparo.

I like thinking of Cervantes as self-educated (whether he was or not). His writing backs that up -- the way he makes fun of erudition, coupled by some lack of self-confidence because he lacks it.

Have you all noticed how our standards of education have changed? He was not well educated if he hadn't read the classics in Latin. How many of us (except for Ginny) have read the classics in Latin? How many of us would want to?

CathieS
April 17, 2006 - 01:13 pm
I received my book of Gustave Dore' s illustrations today.I knew it was paperback, but was so pleased to find it 9" X 12", in mint condition, though I bought it used. There are a total of 120 full-page plates, and another 70 "head-and tail- piece vignettes".

I looked only at the ones that applied to the first six chapters as I want to see them as I read and savor the experience. There are nine illustrations to go with this first reading assignment!!

I don't know if there's a legal way to share these with everyone. But if there is, let me know and I'd be happy to do so. I'm so happy I ordered it and know it is going to enhance my reading experience. The prints are humorous to go along with Cervantes wonderful wit.

There was a picture posted in the prediscussion of DQ in his library. My prints are so clear and I love being able to see all the detail. I hadn't even noticed the two tiny knights, riding two rats, in the foreground, lances out and jousting! Too funny.

Hats
April 17, 2006 - 01:19 pm
Scootz,

After you mentioned the Dore, I ordered a copy too. I don't know how to use it. How do I match picture with chapter? I love the pictures. I am very proud of my copy.

CathieS
April 17, 2006 - 01:32 pm
Hats,

I think the kid in me likes pictures with my books! You, too, eh?

The prints go in order with the text. Under each plate, it will show a caption with something such as I, 3- this means, part 1 of the book, chapter 3 is where you would find the story to go with that plate. If you can't understand what I'm trying to say- look on the publisher's note at the front of the book, and read the last paragraph. It probably describes it better than I can. Basically, though it just follows the text.

Hats
April 17, 2006 - 01:38 pm
Scootz,

Now I understand. Seeing (13) made me think of chapter i verse three. Duuuh! Thanks. It's like a large coloring book isn't it? I just love it. Thanks for the help.

marni0308
April 17, 2006 - 01:52 pm
Hi, folks. I'm back from Easter weekend get-togethers with family. I have hauled myself up onto my trusty(?) steed and am holding on for dear life. If my past riding experience is any indication of how I'll fare now, I'm in big trouble. I will have absolutely no control over where my steed takes me and I'll be sneezing violently the entire way due to allergic reactions to horses.

However, I am definitely enjoying my journey thru the Don. I was nervous at first because the Prologue was difficult for me in the beginning. I had to keep reading the sentences over. But, suddenly I got the hang of it and I'm ok.

Re Cervantes' education...My book (Smollet translation) has a brief bio that says Cervantes "received his early formal education in Madrid, under the tutelage of academician and cleric Juan Lopez de Hoyos......[at twenty-one he] traveled to Rome, where he lived under the patronage of Italian ecclesiastic Giulio Acquaviva...."

In a footnote on the first page of the Preface, my book says that Cervantes' narrator "is not the author of Don Quixote but rather the vehicle for presenting a manuscript written by someone else, whome he identifies as Cide Hamete Benegeli." I read somewhere that this narrator's name is a "Moorish" name. Of course, I wondered why he would select a Moor to be his narrator. I wonder if, for one thing, Cervantes must be careful of what he writes because it is during the Spanish Inquisition. He makes statements about society, about books, and about what is acceptable, about many things that could get him into trouble with the Inquisition, using comedy and a Moorish narrator on whom he can place the blame?

My book has a footnote that says re "beneath my cloak I kill the king" - it is "a reference to freedom of thought kept under the cloak, or hat."

There is also a footnote on pg 6 of the Preface that says "Cervantes implies that he does not use Spanish for the quotation [from the Bible] out of concern about the Inquisition's ban on printing any portion of Scripture in the vernacular."

Marni

marni0308
April 17, 2006 - 01:59 pm
Oh, I just found something good. My book has a timeline in the beginning. Cervantes was born in 1547.

"In 1553, Charles V forbids the introduction of books of chivalry into the American Indies, a Spanish colony. Despite the Spanish Parliament's eventual enforcement of this law throughout Spain, knight-errantry novels will continue to be published until the end of the century."

So, is Cervantes deliberately flaunting the law at the same time he is poking fun at the serious works of chivalry that are so popular? He certainly seems to be making fun, using "tongue in cheek" as someone mentioned.

CathieS
April 17, 2006 - 02:04 pm
My book has a footnote that says re "beneath my cloak I kill the king" - it is "a reference to freedom of thought kept under the cloak, or hat."

Ok, now that makes sense to me. We have freedom of thought as we read, as does a King's subject under his cloak (in his own mind ). Just shows how important a footnote can be. Thanks, marni.

kiwi lady
April 17, 2006 - 03:11 pm
1547 is the in the same century in which "My name is Red" is set. Interesting to think of that. Here was Cervantes a pioneer of the novel and at the same time the Europeans were mastering portraiture.

Carolyn

Jan
April 17, 2006 - 03:17 pm
Unfortunately, reluctantly, I'll have to leave Don for a couple of weeks. My stepfather (who's 90) has to have his second cancer operation, this time for bowel cancer and someone has to stay with my mum, who suffers from Dementia and can't be alone. My sister and I loathe this man as we haven't been able to spend any quality time with Mum for years and years, but duty is duty. She manages better with him than I do, as I'm timid and soft-voiced<smile>, so she'll do the driving and patient contact, and I'll support Mum.

I'll take Cervantes with me and keep up my reading, and hopefully I'll be able to slot back in later.

1amparo
April 17, 2006 - 06:31 pm
I think the best thing will be to wait till we have the name of the place our chaps find themselves and look at the maps link “details”. Yes, I think it will start with “T1” route… The windmills are in Ciudad Real area, etc.

I see the maps link has reversed to Spanish (could it be this old laptop I am using is Spanish with Spanish Windows?) I shall check with my newer laptop in couple days to see if they show in English. But of course, you all know there is an “English” link at top right-hand, then again at top-right the English link for D. Q. routes.

Gumtree, it could very well be Valencia, my native city, has some of those gum-trees you mention: right on one side of the city’s river banks there are; hundreds of them, and every year when I see them I can’t help but feeling I want to hug them!! They look so majestic and beautiful.

Alf, post 59: Bulls eye hit mate!!

Cheers all.

Amparo

Traude S
April 17, 2006 - 07:03 pm
Here is what Putnam says at the end of the Prologue:
"The Prologue is followed by a number of sets of burlesque verses, parodies on the poetical tributes to the author and his work, which commonly served to preface a book in Cervantes' time. With their involved humor and recondite allusions, these pieces are hardly to the taste of the modern reader."
In P.A. Motteux's translation from the Spanish with an introduction by A.J. Close, the Prologue is called "The Author's Preface to the Reader" (underlining mine), and this is how it starts :

"You may depend upon my bare Word, Reader, without any farther Security, that I cou'd wish this Offspring of my Brain were as ingenious, sprightly, and accomplish'd as your self could desire; but the Mischief on't is, Nature will have its Course: Every Production must resemble its Author, and my barren and unpolish'd Understanding can produce nothing but what is very dull, very impertinent, and extravagant beyond imagination. You may suppose it (sic) the Child of Disturbance, engendered in some dismal Prison, (asterisk) where Wretechedness keeps its Residence, and every dismal Sound its Habitation, etc."

The asterisk leads to a footnote, which in turn reads "The Author is said to have wrote (sic!) this satyrical Romance in a Prison."

I find this translation stiff and, frankly, unreadable; the translator's error in the footnote ('have wrote' instead of 'have written', past tense instead of participle with auxiliary verb) is simply too much.
I'll return the book to the library and have ordered Edith Grossman's text. Until it arrives, I have Putnam to fall back on. It is much clearer, sounds better, is genuinely funny, and therefore eminently more readable.

DEEMS, I too am glad we have AMPARO with us.
May add that the 'u' in 'Dulcinea' sounds like the 'u' in Pizzeria Uno. Castilian is the classical, the purest form of Spanish. And yes, the 'c' in "Rocinante" is pronounced as 'th' ( except in the Spanish-speaking countries of Central and South America).

In Putnam's Prologue, the Latin quotations are neatly offset in the text, which is easy on the eyes.

Regarding the questions:
1. Intimidated - not really. All these decades later I believe we must have had an excellent German translation. I cannot remember whether there were poems after the Prologue or not, but I recall that the professor made us aware of some textual inconsistencies. Some of the memories will come back, I hope.

2. and 4. I can't really answer questions # 2 and 4 on the meaning of the Prologue at this time.

Re 3. From what the various sources tell us about Cervantes' background, I can believe that his formal education cannot be compared with that of, say, the dramatist Lope de Vega, Cervantes' prolific countryman. (or only pretended), we don't really know.

Re 5. I am interested in the Latin quotations.

Incidentally, in Putnam's translation the word "impertinent" does NOT appear. Also, Putnam begins his Introduction with this quote
"Cervantes - a patient gentleman who wrote a book - has been seated in the Elysian Fields for three centuries now, where he casts melancholy glances about him as he waits for a descendant to be born who shall be capable of understanding him." José Ortega y Gasset

hegeso
April 17, 2006 - 07:35 pm
Hello! I am having a real hell of a day, and couldn't read all the messages. I stopped at #51 of E. le Pelteau, and tremendously enjoyed the poem in such a beautiful French. Thank you!

There is only one thing I want to add: the name of Celestina, a procuress, comes from something between a novel and a play by Fernando de Rojas, written about 100 years before the Don, and according to Salvador de Madariaga that was the earliest novel, not the Don. The title of that piece is longer, but I can't recall it now. If interested, you might google F. de R.

I will read tomorrow all the messages which I had to miss today.

Traude S
April 17, 2006 - 07:59 pm
Hello, HEGESO, good to see you.

Checking my # 77 I found that in editing I lost some words. Sorry.

What I meant to say in answer to question 3, after "prolific countryman", was
"Whether or not Cervantes rued his lack of erudition (or merely pretended to), we don't know."

kiwi lady
April 17, 2006 - 08:45 pm
I have to put up with Putnam as its all we have in the library. I hope I do not find it too boring.

Carolyn

kiwi lady
April 17, 2006 - 09:18 pm
After the ponderous introduction I am now on the text of the novel. Its fine for me. Very English vocabulary. Thats fine for me as I am used to that sort of language. So far I have liked what I have read.

Carolyn

marni0308
April 17, 2006 - 09:50 pm
I was wondering about the books of knights errant and chivalry that the narrator referred to in the Preface and first few chapters. Also I was wondering why Spain would have passed a law that forbade people to read them.

Tonight I watch an interesting History Channel program about King Arthur and where the stories about him and his knights came from. One important source was Geoffrey of Monmouth who wrote Historia Regum Britanniae (History of the Kings of Britain) in the 12th century. Apparently, this work was extraordinarily successful and was published all over Europe. Then in 1485, Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur was published. Apparently, Geoffrey of Monmouth's History, as well, as other French and English works, were sources he used for his story of Arthur, Lancelot and the saga. He included the vision about chivalry and knighthood as it had existed in medieval times, emerging in the 11th century - shining armor, jousting, etc. It seems there was in Europe a wave of popularity of books about knights errant, romantic concepts of chivalry, and heroic quests in this period. Apparently, the Crusades impacted these works.

"By the beginning of the 13th Century, the myths surrounding Arthur and his Knights were becoming considerably expanded by writers and poets who adopted the theme of Arthurian Legend to elaborate issues the the day. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table were also linked to actual locations such as Glastonbury and Tintagel, and a connection with the Holy Land and the Crusades interwove the concepts of a rescue of the Grail with that of purge of the "heathen occupation" of Jerusalem - a sort of divine justification for the barbarism of the Crusades. Thus, Arthurian Legend was adapted by the mood of the time into propaganda for the preservation of Christianity, and Arthur was transformed from Celtic warlord into a true Christian hero...."

http://www.arthurian-legend.com/le-mort-darthur.php

The History Channel program also mentioned that nearing the end of the Middle Ages weapons of war had changed so much that knights (as a military institution) had become obsolete. (Gunpowder and more powerful archery were in use and could shoot through armor.)

In an interesting article about knighthood I read: "The chivalric ideals continued to live on, perhaps precisely because the reality of knighthood had disappeared, and a free rein was given to romanticizing. The French king François Ier insisted on being knighted on the battlefield of his first victory at Marignano in 1515. Tournaments, pas d'armes were favorite entertainment at the French court of the 16th century. More and more elaborate suits of armor were forged for pure display, in increasingly baroque imitations of earlier models. Ariosto's poetic retelling of the crusades popularized the figures of Orlando and Ruggiero and extended the knightly myth for another 200 years...."

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/knights.htm

Does anyone know why literature about knights errant would have been outlawed in Spain in the 16th century?

kiwi lady
April 17, 2006 - 09:59 pm
Don Quixote in his obsession with his reading about Chivalry and the way he becomes divorced from reality reminds me of some soap viewers who get so carried away the characters become real people to them.

Carolyn

1amparo
April 17, 2006 - 10:25 pm
Celestina was very common name for females long before Fernando de Rojas wrote/published his book in 1499. Celestina is still a common name. Now, to call someone “a Celestina” that’s a different thing! Then it means be aware: the female so referred is not to be trusted one bit!

Marni0308 post 82. The Spanish inquisition began in 1478, many things including some books became outlawed and were prohibited as indeed was the Bible which was not allowed in Spain until very recently, certainly late last century.

Carolyn, the Spaniards are asking, they may even have it by now, to have Don Quijote's routes made Unesco World Heritage. What about that!? Move over Camino de Santiago...

Cheers.

Amparo

CathieS
April 18, 2006 - 04:32 am
But of course, you all know there is an “English” link at top right-hand, then again at top-right the English link for D. Q. routes. Of course, I knew that.

Carolyn,

I was just going to tell you that things seem to read more smoothly once past the prologue, but see you figured that out already.

I'm ready to saddla up again and move into the text. Awaiting new questions from our fearless leader.

ALF
April 18, 2006 - 05:14 am
1Amparo- you have brought great joy to me this morning. Just the thought of hugging an old tree fills me with glee. I love trees! I'm off the AM for Bill's knee surgery. I fear not ladies as the Don rides with me as we get lost in the cofrridors of imagination.

Joan Pearson
April 18, 2006 - 06:29 am
Good morning!

Oh. My. Goodness. So much to digest before breakfast! And we need breakfast, because today we are scheduled to set out on this long journey together!

Andy - Bill is in our thoughts and prayers this morning. He's lucky to have our nurse by his side! We'll be right here when you come back and he's out on the golf course again.

Jan - though under trying circumstances, it seems you and your sister will now have the opportunity to get closer to your mother after so many years. She is fortunate to have you with her. We'll be here when you get back and will keep the lamps burning for you to follow.

Amparo - the map of Don Quixote's route now located in the Related Links in the header now seems to come up in English!(Edit, I take that back, it's in Spanish again! But a map is a map. Spanish is fine - fun!) Can anyone find the location of Don Quixote's home on the map? I know that his Dulcinea of Toboso lives nearby, so I take it that is where Don lives. (I do see Toboso on the map)

Traudee - I am hoping that no one is reading P.A. Motteux's translation after reading the sample from the prologue you brought to us!

Am lusting after that book of Dore illustrations - will try to include some here in the coming chapters. Found a good one for Chapter VI.

Hegeso - here's to a better day, luv!



I think we're as well prepared to start out this morning...as our Don was. ( a little tongue in cheek. Surely we have much to learn and to keep in mind as we embark! Thank you so much for all of your contributions. They help, they really do!

Education
Cervantes is documented as having had some education ... we know now, thanks to Maryal, Pat H. Marni and others - that he must have had some education along the way though his Latin is "shaky", "flawed." He makes occasional mistakes in his classical allusions, ... his background in philosophy "eclectic" - no wonder he is poking fun at academic pretentions - at those who are supposed to be "well-educated." Like JoanK I like to think of him as self-educated too. It seems he had to go out of his way to get what education had - "incomplete schooling" seems to explain his background, we'll forgive him any errors he might make - and keep in mind something Pat H points out - some of his errors may be intentional, his subtle way of poking fun at his contemporary authors. As Scootz points out - those footnotes can be of help - thank you all for sharing as questions arise.
Banning books

Marni thank you for bringing up the fact that Cervantes is writing during the Spanish inquisition The Church is burning heretics as well as suspicious books which may contain heretical messages. Marni asks - "Does anyone know why literature about knights errant would have been outlawed in Spain in the 16th century?" When we say "outlawed" - we are talking about books being outlawed by the Church...and also by the King. Both the Church and the STATE have different agendas and different reasons for banning certain works. We can talk more about this as we go along. An interesting note on Cervantes' implementing a Moorish narrator, Marni - let's watch for this as we go along.

Carolyn - it IS interesting that artists (the Turkish portraitists (is that even a word?) and writers of this time work under strict rules, punishable by death, isn't it? Self-expression is something that was not encouraged in the 16th century.

Stories of knight-errantry
Marni - thank you so much for bringing us the information on those stories of knight-errantry at which Cervantes is poking fun - He's not attacking the stories Andy loved...the Arthurian Tales themselves, "the great knight-errants of old".

"By the beginning of the 13th Century, the myths surrounding Arthur and his Knights were becoming considerably expanded by writers and poets who adopted the theme of Arthurian Legend to elaborate issues the the day."

Maryal - "As for the romances that Cervantes (and always gently) makes fun of, there is a whole tradition of them from Cretien de Troyes down to his time. They were wildly popular and very much like each other as author imitated author."

So. It is the "wildly popular, often imitated stories" of the knights of old - sort of formulaic romance novels we have today - some loosely based on historical fact, but not quite accurate. Carolyn sets us up for Chapter I when she writes...
"Don Quixote in his obsession with his reading about Chivalry and the way he becomes divorced from reality reminds me of some soap viewers who get so carried away the characters become real people to them."
Let's try this and see how it works...for the next two days, let's discuss the first three chapters. Will keep a running copy of Prologue Questions and previously discussed chapers in the heading (do you see the link at the very bottom of the page above?) So if you've been away and you want to see some of the questions we've been discussing, you can refer to them. Always feel free to refer to earlier chapters. Oh, and this is important - the questions are only there to provoke thought - there is so much more in the book than you will find there. Please don't confine your observations to these questions.

Let's go, at long last! I'm excited, aren't you?

CathieS
April 18, 2006 - 07:03 am
3. What does Cervantes accomplish by portraying his hero as a laughingstock? Would such a quest be "inevitable" for a sane man?

For me, this definitely makes DQ a sympathetic (as well as a pathetic) character. I doubt a sane man would set out this way, certainly not in the things he does, anyhow.

DQ's foibles make him a likable, bumbling hero, imho.

judywolfs
April 18, 2006 - 02:09 am
Hi everybody - I've always wanted to read the whole book of Don Quixote, Started it many, many times, but for one reason and another never got past the first few chapters or an excerpt here and there. I thought I might give it another try here, ok? It's been quite a while since I joined one of SR's delightful book discussions; this one looks like it's off to a great start. - Judy S.

JoanK
April 18, 2006 - 04:10 am
WELCOME JUDY S. I'm with you-- I started Don several times and never got very far. Maybe if we hold each other up, we'll do it this time.

The Don wasn't the only one who acted in irrational ways because of chivalry. I recently read "A Distant Mirror", Barbara Tuchman's history of France in the 1500s. She describes the battles that the French knights fought. They fought according to the laws of chivalry, which demanded that they be in the front row of the battle, whether that made strategic sense or not. In one battle the knights lined up in front, with the archers behind them. Of course the archers couldn't shoot for fear of hitting their own men. The enemy had put their archers in front, and mowed the knights down.

In another battle, fought in a narrow valley, there were so many knights in the front row that they literally couldn't move.

In another, the knights' armor had gotten so elaborate and heavy, that more knights died from heat prostration than from battle.

So the Don is not alone, nor purely a figment of imagination.

kiwi lady
April 18, 2006 - 05:24 am
As I was reading about Quixotes approach to the inn and reading how it morphed in front of his eyes to a castle with drawbridge etc I could see the novel as a film complete with all the special effects they could do today. I am sure older children especially boys would go crazy about the plot. My son loved the abridged version of Don Quixote which he read at about age 11. It would make a very very funny movie. It is a funny novel. I am sure it was written to make the reader chuckle.

Carolyn

Joan Pearson
April 18, 2006 - 05:48 am
I second JoanK's WELCOME, Judy! We are off to a roaring start - let's hope the enthusiasm holds until we get in so far that we are unable to turn back! Welcome! Welcome!

An interesting note from Barbara Tuchman, JoanK - you know, when you think about it, the suits of armor seem highly impractical for battle of any kind that requires movement, don't you think?

Scootz, we'll put you in Don Q's corner. You sympathize with him and with what he is trying to do. I'm wondering what you thought when he broke the second mule driver's head for moving his armor from the water trough - with no explanation or warning, he broke open his skull. Still sticking up for him?

Carolyn, I think we are going to find a lot more in the story than what we see in excerpts and theatrical performances. I may be wrong. I'm sensing something very "pathetic" about our knight - and find it hard to laugh at him when he's down. But I'll agree with you - he does make you chuckle. What say you, official comicality meter? Did you smile at anything in Chapter I?

CathieS
April 18, 2006 - 06:10 am
I'm wondering what you thought when he broke the second mule driver's head for moving his armor from the water trough - with no explanation or warning, he broke open his skull. Still sticking up for him?



First of all, it's just amazing that you bring this up. It is the ONE thing in this part that just absolutely shocked me when I read it. In fact, I went back and reread it thinking I must have misunderstood. After all, it's one thing to breeze about the land, waving your lance hither and yon, but it's quite another to be bashing in someone's skull. A resounding NO would be the answer to whether I sympathized with him then. I was shocked and couldn't believe that this happened. I thought this was a comedy but killing is serious business.

I was going to bring this up some time later. But actually, when DQ himself got beaten a while later, and almost senseless, I did sympathize. (Lots of folks are getting beaten in this book and we're a mere 50 pages in.) The man is a few links short of a full set of chain mail and I guess we have to cut him some slack for that. I'm taking it all as a satire/parody of chivalrous novels, so I can't get too serious about it. On balance though , I do feel sorry for the poor demented guy.

But- does he just get away with the killing? I guess I'll have to read on to find out. So far, I've only read this week's portion.

Hats
April 18, 2006 - 07:23 am
Don Quixote is fifty years old. I feel that his age must have something to do with his behavior. During those days people didn't live very long. Maybe Don Quixote feels a need to make the most of his last years. Unfortunately, I think this idea of fulfilling his dreams comes after a mental breakdown.

Obviously, nothing he does makes sense. He's not seeing clearly. He thinks the inn is a castle. To him prostitutes are "fair maidens." Mumbled words by the innkeeper are prayers. I am afraid Don Quixote is a danger to other people. He is not in touch with reality. If this is the sixteenth century, were people sick in mind placed in some institution?

There is also something odd about the people who go along with Don Quixote. So far, the people cater to his wishes. He is dubbed a knight. He is literally fed by the inn's staff. There is something wrong about the community as well. Why not just tell Quixote Rocinante is just an old nag and not a beautiful horse? I guess the people do not want to break this old man's heart.

kiwi lady
April 18, 2006 - 07:56 am
Hats- I was thinking as I read that Quixote was displaying manic behaviour with delusions. However I do not think this was in the writers mind as he concocted his novel. We do have to remember that in 1547 life was cheap. Violence was taken for granted. To go to war was noble. While our young men work off their high levels of testosterone on the football field the knights worked it off on the battle field.

marni0308
April 18, 2006 - 09:50 am
Didn't people think the Don was nuts even before he set off on his quest as a knight errant? He sold his land off to buy books. He surrounded himself with books and read voraciously, esp. books about chivalry.

------------------

I am getting a big chuckle out of this book so far. I thought when I saw a question "Do you think this book is a comedy?" in the Header that it was not going to be a comedy. But it's very funny, sometimes in a slapstick sort of way as when the Don's horse stops suddenly and the Don flips over the horse's head and lands on the ground.

The scenes where the Don goes berserk and attacks people or threatens them all seem to be about the beautiful lady Dulcinea. The Don insists that everyone admire her or visit her or praise her or whatever. If there is any hesitation, the Don must fight for her honor - a knightly chivalric duty, of course. I think all of this is amusing because it is so exaggerated.

However, I can already see signs of plenty more than just comedy, as with the whole subject of books and their treatment.

ALF
April 18, 2006 - 09:56 am
How can you not chuckle at this bumbling fool? His brains were fried (or dried) from his incessant knight-errant and chivalry reading. His obsession became the naked-truth. In his idleness, he must assign himself the best role. In his conceit, he wishes to be the "big Kahoona", so he just renames himself, figures himself crowned, renames his nag and assigns himself a lady onto whom he can bestow his affections.
Ah if life could only be so delineated and earmarked.
What would you chose my friends if you were able to dream yourself into the ideal life?
Would you be basking in sunlight on a far away beach with a little cabana boy to bring you your margueritas? Would you opt to be another Mother Teresa, saving the world and imparting your wisdom?
Well ole Don he just wanted to find the impossible dream. I need to think about that. I agree there are many who would choose the "soap opera" life. Not me, that is far too predictable.



Hats is worried he’s gone off the deep end and will hurt someone. If he does, I am certain that he can convince himself and others that it is for the good of all.
Didn’t you love the way he labored to transform his morion into a helmet and then was unable to loosen the silk ties to partake of a meal. Now that is funny. Will he have to leave his “helmet” on throughout the novel I wonder? I can just see the "ladies" chuckling and twittering as he recites his gibberish. That's probably the most "enjoyable" action they've seen in a long time from the male species.

Deems
April 18, 2006 - 10:14 am
Hats and Kiwi--I agree with both of you. Hats says that Don Q seems more than a little off tilt and Kiwi reminds us that violence was an everyday matter in the sixteenth century (as it is now if you take a look around the world). The difference, I guess, is that the violence is harder to take when it is up close and personal and being inflicted on and suffered by our main character.

It certainly is interesting that the people Don Q meets so far play along with his delusions of grandeur. After all if you are a shrewd and not very honest innkeeper, you can take this old looney for whatever he has. If he says he's a knight, fine, humor him.

Hats notices that Don Q takes the prostitutes for fine ladies and pays them compliments.

The actual practice of keeping vigil the night before one was knighted goes back to the actual practice. Except that in the legends this vigil was performed in a chapel and lasted the whole night.

JoanP--As for cracking the second muledriver's skull, I think we must allow for some exagerration here since a couple of paragraphs later, both men seem to be able to withdraw under their own power.

I do chuckle at the "ritual" the innkeeper performs:

"Forewarned and fearful, the castellan immediately brought the book in which he kept a record of the feed and straw he supplied to the muledrivers, and with a candle end that a servant boy brought to him, and the two aforementioned damsels, he approached the spot where Don Quixote stood and ordered him to kneel, and reading from his book as if he were murmuring a devout prayer, he raised his hand and struck him on the back of the neck, and after that, with his own sword, he delivered a gallant blow to his shoulders, always murmuring between his teeth as if he were praying." (end of chap. 2).

Because of Cervantes' always tongue-in-cheek delivery, it is impossible to tell if he satirizes more here than a knighting ceremony. But whatever he's doing, the scene amuses me.

~Maryal

kiwi lady
April 18, 2006 - 10:34 am
I still say I see a great movie in this story line. I could see Robin Williams playing Don Quixote for instance.

Carolyn

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 18, 2006 - 11:22 am
As I read the lovely French version of DQ I can only bask in the imagery Cervantes evokes in those pages. Never mind the story, it is too far out to be either credible or funny. The story is not the message, I am searching for that between the lines, I don't know what it is yet and I am toying with several clues but I am sure the discussion will bring out the message.

Is DQ mentally disturbed, or just stupid? I think he is neither, he is just a man's fantasy.

This work reminds me very much of Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett where you see two derelics aimlessly waiting for a man whom they think will save them from their miserable life. It is a pathetic story revealing the terrible reality of the society surrounding them and you don't know if you want to laugh or cry.

I love the literary style in DQ. I don't think this character could be real. Perhaps it is what Cervantes would have liked his life to be, a noble romantic. He is dreaming impossible dreams where he is both a hero and a lover using chivalry as a vehicle to carry his dreams through.

Éloïse

kiwi lady
April 18, 2006 - 11:27 am
Eloise - Quixote has to be a bit daft. Maybe Cervantes was poking fun at society in his time in this book.

Carolyn

marni0308
April 18, 2006 - 01:44 pm
Alf: I'm so glad you brought up that image of the Don and his helmet. What a riot! He has to drink with a straw because he can't take off his helmet!

There are so many really funny scenes. So outrageous! I loved the picture of his scrawny old "celebrated steed" companion who "surpassed in his eyes the Bucephalus of Alexander or the Babieca of the Cid." The Don "pursued his way, taking that which his horse chose, for in this he believed lay the essence of adventures." The dear steed brings the Don home at times.

When the Don decides what to do with his life, after immersing himself in chivalric literature, Cervantes explains: "...he hit upon the strangest notion that ever madman in this world hit upon...righting every kind of wrong, and exposing himself to peril and danger from which, in the issue, he was to reap eternal renown and fame."

Perhaps this strange goal is not really so funny.

1amparo
April 18, 2006 - 02:17 pm
Your post 87: Can anyone find the location of Don Quixote's home on the map? I know that his Dulcinea of Toboso lives nearby, so I take it that is where Don lives. (I do see Toboso on the map)

Cervantes begins his book with: "En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme," = Somewhere in La Mancha, of which place its name I don’t want to recall….

Hence we readers do not know where Quixote’s home is, for he TRAVELS to Toboso. And Cervantes introduces Quijote as "...rematado ya su juicio" which = mad as a hatter!

Cheers.

Amparo

kidsal
April 18, 2006 - 07:28 pm
Don Q didn't seem to have a plan -- he just set off and went where his horse took him. No wonder the route shown on the map is such a tangle.

1amparo
April 18, 2006 - 10:24 pm
Did I read somewhere that children are interested in D:Q?, here is a link for them, sorry it is in Spanish and cannot see choice of English. But video (cartoons) gives good Spanish pronunciation of words such as "Dulcinea" etc.

Have a go!!!

http://www.quixote.tv/activ.htm

Amparo

CathieS
April 18, 2006 - 11:03 pm
4. Did you smile or laugh at Cervantes' wry humor or irony in this chapter?

I chuckled at the part where DQ tests the strength of his newly fashioned helmet by delivering it two blows , which promptly destroyed it! It is stated that it took him a week to make the helmet. Later, it takes him four days thinking of a name for his mount. Still later, he takes eight days to name himself. Clearly, exaggeration is at work here.

2. Why does the innkeeper continue to go along with him, once he learns that Don Q. has no money to pay his bill? Why did the girls accept the title, "Dona" from him?

By the time they all saw his "lunacy" and his vigil at the trough, they were a bit afraid of him. I think they went along with him so he would move on.

Deems
April 18, 2006 - 11:55 pm
Amparo--Thank you for the link for comics and short clips about Don Quixote. My daughter (adult) is taking Spanish twice a week before work with several other adults. She already is fluent in French and at first found Spanish difficult because when she couldn't think of the right word, the French word jumped into her head. Now she doesn't have this problem and is really enjoying the language. I'll get her to help me with the page.

I do love hearing the Spanish and it will help with pronunciation!

Maryal

Joan Pearson
April 19, 2006 - 01:30 am
Good morning! How I've enjoyed reading yesterday's posts with morning coffee! It's enlightening to read a whole page or two in one sitting. Some things become clearer - and yet often new questions begin to form.

Yes, it is funny - outrageous comedy. The image of this poor öld" guy on his broken down horse, believing that he is a gallant knight-errant - How can this be? He believes in something and acts on his strong belief that he can make his world a better place. Hard to fault him for that, as Andy writes: "he wants to do some good in the world rather than sit at home." We're on his side in this, right? But is he as crazy as he appears to be?

Marni, do you really think a person is crazy who sells off unwanted possessions to satisfy a craving for books. He reads a lot. Does that make him crazy? I'm not certain that his niece or the housekeeper or the townspeople thought he had lost it - just that he was spending too much time holed up in his library reading. What else did he have to do? It was when he emerged from the library and began to live out the dream that he crossed the line.

Kidsal the fact that he lets his horse lead the way gives the term "errant" a whole new meaning! It's one thing to want to right wrongs, but to let the horse determine the course! The whole thing seems harmless, until the first bit of violence erupts. We sit up take notice - as Scootz says, killing is serious business. But wait! The guy with the shattered skull appears unscathed in the next scene! This is more than comedy...it's like all those cartoons we watched as kids...the characters are exploded from canons, dropped off cliffs - and then not even a bandaid in the next clip.

The term "metafiction" keeps flickering in my brain, trying to get my attention. "meta"= beyond, beyond fiction. I can't figure yet where Cervantes is going with his comedic portrayal of this deluded man - but I just know that it is more than comedy - more than this piece of fiction.

Not everyone appreciates slapstick comedy. Do you? Eloise find this too far out to be either credible or funny ." Is it safe to assume that Cervantes was trying to accomplish more than s to amuse his readers with his parody. He has another purpose. We just haven't stumbled on it yet. Does he, as his protagonist set out to right wrongs in his own way?

Joan Pearson
April 19, 2006 - 01:31 am
PARODY

I think that "parody" assumes that a truth will be exposed under the guise of humor. Scootz sees this as a parody of chivalous novels. Here's a multiple choice question for you ~
Is Cervantes writing a parody of:
a. the tales of 11th century chivalry and knight-errantry
b. the 16th centuury tales ABOUT the 11th century knights and chivalry?
OR try this - c. Hats questions whether there is something "wrong with the community" - and Eloise somapres it to Waiting for Godot, " a pathetic story revealing the terrible reality of the society." Is Cervantes perhaps presenting a parody on his contemporary readers who accept the trashy novels of the day...just as the innkeeper and the party girls accepted Don Quixote's behavior?
Someone else here suggested that maybe Cervantes was poking fun at society in his time in this book. Oh, yes, I think so! I really do. He might be presenting a deluded character to carry his message, but Cervantes is crazy like a fox.

marni0308
April 19, 2006 - 02:24 am
JoanP: Re "Marni, do you really think a person is crazy who sells off unwanted possessions to satisfy a craving for books. He reads a lot. Does that make him crazy?"

Of course I PERSONALLY don't think he's crazy due to selling off land to buy books, for heaven's sake. It was in the book. In the Preface or in the first chapter.

marni0308
April 19, 2006 - 02:27 am
Re where did Don Quixote live....

The very first line of Chapter 1 says "In a village of La Mancha, the name of which I have no desire to call to mind, there lived not long since one of those gentlemen...."

marni0308
April 19, 2006 - 02:44 am
Re 2. Why does the innkeeper continue to go along with him, once he learns that Don Q. has no money to pay his bill?

The innkeeper, once he found out the Don had no money and because he was creating trouble with other guests, tried to get rid of the Don ASAP. "But these freaks of his guest were not much to the liking of the landlord, so he determined to cut matters short and confer upon him at once the unlucky order of knighthood before any further misadventure could occur..."

The innkeeper probably thought that if he didn't complete a knighting ceremony, the Don would create even more trouble.

Also, it sounds as though the innkeeper and some other guests found the knighting ceremony very amusing. Maybe that's one reason why they continued to play along, albeit with speed. ".... not a little was required to prevent a burst of laughter at each stage of the ceremony; but what they had already seen of the novice knight's prowess kept their laughter within bounds."

marni0308
April 19, 2006 - 03:11 am
The Introduction in my version of this book is good. It includes the following about the Don and his love of books:

"Cervantes's contemporaries would have immediately recognized Don Quixote as a low-level member of the nobility struggling to keep up appearances, always a comical endeavor. His rusty lance and rotted shield, relics of the means by which his grandparents and their forebears had acquired land, wealth, and power, now serve only as ornaments on his walls. Far from living with the ease of a gentleman, the status to which he pretends, he is tightening his belt to the point of constriction. His skimpy diet, which consumes three-quarters of his income, his 'skeleton of a horse,' and 'starved greyhound' suggest that he lives right on the edge of his financial means. In taking the title of don, which he does not merit because he does not own enough land, he follows a widespread practice of inflating rank with nothing more substantial than assertions. His fragile ego, which he always protects from admission of failure, suggests that he would have needed a way to avoid facing his financial bind and prospective social ruin. Like many Spaniards of his time, he finds an escape in books of chivalry."

"To buy his books of chivalry, Don Quixote has raised money in a way that a seventeenth-century audience would have found ludicrous: selling off good, potentially income-producing farmland. Engrossed in reading the books, he has let his house and holdings go to ruin, and he has given up hunting, a perennial pastime of Spanish aristocrats...."

Pat H
April 19, 2006 - 03:45 am
The helmet:

Alf--I remember from previous readings, that later Don Q acquires a sturdier helmet in another funny incident.

KleoP
April 19, 2006 - 06:16 am
It didn't occur to me to question whether or not Don Quixote is crazy as I thought that was the whole set-up of the book. Would a rational man form a helmet of cardboard? go on a venture with no money? to nowhere? We can hardly poke fun of the chivalric knights of olden times if we assume that the Don is sane and all his actions are the well-thought actions of any man.

DQ may not be able to eat in his helmet but the knights often had more serious problems in theirs: they couldn't see out of them.

The poems in the introduction set the tone.

As for the castle-keep going along with the Don's craziness? Doesn't want to get his head bashed in. Also, humans tend to instinctively fear the unknown, the strange, the crazy. It will do no good to pressure this strange man for money.

Kleo

Deems
April 19, 2006 - 06:18 am
JoanP--I'll take option 2 above. The comedy is being poked at all those romantic books about the knights of old that were so popular when Cervantes sat down to write. No doubt he read some number of them himself.

But it you think about it, the precious gentleman was some 400-500 years later than the period of the knights themselves.

That's further than we are from the reign of George III of England. In the U.S. we'd have to go back to the founding of Jamestown. What if we all started wearing homespun and claiming land by putting out markers? How about getting the community to erect a stockade fence?

Of course those whom the good "knight" encounters don't take him seriously. He has appeared out of a time machine.

As for whether or not intense concentration in one area can make one "mad," who knows the answer? I do know that people who tend toward obsession (like me) find it very hard to stop doing something they are deeply involved in whether or not that thing should be stopped. I lose all sense of time sometimes when I'm concentrating.

I think Don Q might not have slipped into his "madness" if he had taken more trots around the countryside on Rocinante as well as some nice long walks after dinner and before bed instead of all that endless reading.

Maryal

Deems
April 19, 2006 - 06:21 am
Hi Kleo, we were posting at the same time. Yes, people do often avoid those who act crazy, don't they? Or they humor them. In fact, madness can be a kind of safe hiding place (see Hamlet).

SeniorNet is changing servers tonight apparently and I think the site will be down for a few hourse. Don't want everyone to think we have disappeared.

Maryal

KleoP
April 19, 2006 - 06:29 am
Oh, I had not thought of that, but yes, madness can be a safe haven.

Yes, I agree that some long walks outdoors would have done the Don some good.

Kleo

Pat H
April 19, 2006 - 11:02 am
What is my reaction to Don Quixote? I have always had mixed feelings about this book.

First, the negative side: the basic premise demands that we be willing to laugh at a crazy man, which I am not willing to do. And the slapstick is so brutal as to put off a modern audience. But Cervantes lived in a much more brutal time than ours. I am indebted to Joan Pearson for pointing out that the beatings are like movie cartoons, in which a character is rolled flat by a steamroller or shattered into fragments, only to reappear whole the next moment.

HOWEVER: The positive side trumps the negative. Beneath the slapstick there is a dry, wry understated wit. There are amusing phrases, there are clever literary allusions (intelligible to me only through footnotes). The details of the Don’s quest and how he pursues it are hilarious.

Down the road, there is also some bitter social commentary. The whole work has many levels of meaning; I’ll be lucky if I get half of them.

And the main thing that attracts me is a kind of mood or style. I’m not sure how to express it—a kind of jauntiness. I don’t even know if it comes from the language or the content. It really started to kick in about chapter 4 or 5.

1amparo
April 19, 2006 - 12:03 pm
Your post 111, "In a village of La Mancha, the name of which I have no desire to call to mind,..."

Good. Only Cervantes had cosen the verb "QUERER", in Spanish more forceful than DESEAR.

Amparo

Pat H
April 19, 2006 - 12:44 pm
Amparo: Querer versus desear: that's interesting. My Spanish version has a footnote after "no quiero acordarme"--"no voy o no llego a acordarme", which I translate as "I'm not going to, or I'm not able to remember. Is that right? What chance do I have of appreciating the Spanish, given my limited knowledge (1 college year)? Actually, that's a stupid question; how do you know what I'm like? I'll have to read only some passges in Spanish, because it takes me too long, but already I'm a little annoyed with Raffel. My best hope is that after I read more bits, I will capture the feel. I think this is starting to happen already.

marni0308
April 19, 2006 - 01:21 pm
G'day, Amparo. Re "In a village of La Mancha, the name of which I have no desire to call to mind,..." "Only Cervantes had cosen the verb "QUERER", in Spanish more forceful than DESEAR."

I am not translating Don Quixote myself (god forbid!) I had one year of high school Spanish a thousand years ago. I found the quote in the on-line version of Don Quixote in the Header above. It's easier to copy and paste a sentence to illustrate a point than to type it altogether from my own copy. I didn't compare them word for word. I hope the online translation is decent. So far, compared to mine, it seems fine.

1amparo
April 19, 2006 - 01:26 pm
--"no voy o no llego a acordarme", which I translate as "I'm not going to, or I'm not able to remember. Is that right? Yes Pat, it is perfect. You are doing quite well for only one year of Spanish; I wish (desearía) my Latin were that good.

Heavens forbid, Marni! I am not blaming anyone for translations, I am only pointing the differences as from my Spanish copy.

Amparo

kiwi lady
April 19, 2006 - 02:46 pm
Why did the Don mistake the prostitutes for fair high born maidens? The short answer is because he was "Away with the fairies in fantasy land".

Why did the innkeeper go along with the Don in his fantasy. Simply I think because in the end he was afraid of him and decided to get rid of him asap by humouring him.

Carolyn

Joan Pearson
April 19, 2006 - 11:47 pm
Good morning!
I had hoped to get in before Amparo went to bed - but things are as slow as molasses on SeniorNet this morning as you may have noticed. We moved to a new server over night - the good news is that we didn't lose anything as often happens in a move. Let's hope we speed up as the day goes on.

Amparo, just what is the time difference? (That's Pacific time you see in the posts) Is today Thursday for you - or? We are delighted that you are on board as our official translator, mate!

Pat H, I'm trying to decide whether the "jauntiness" that I sense too is coming from Raffel or from Cervantes. I think I know what you are feeling about the Raffel translation. Carolyn - you're right, our knight is certainly NOT interested in the "party girls" at the inn. (That's how Raffel describes them.) I'm thinking about the effect of Don Quixote's respectful treatment of the girls as "ladies" - probably more than they got from any man for a long time. I think it must have touched them. I know if I were a "party girl" and someone began calling me "maam" and Lady Joan, I'd soften.

Marni
Kleo, I'm not ready (yet) to admit DonQ. is certifiably crazy. (What does that make me? hahaha) I will agree with you, his actions are "not well thought out."

Do you think that Cervantes regards him as his "hero" for putting his beliefs into action (no matter what others think of them,) - by using everything at his disposal, every piece of rusted armor, every piece of cardboard, ribbon, string. tape) - OR, is he portraying a madman who deserves our mockery and disdain?

PatH - maybe Cervantes is counting on us NOT to laugh at this crazy man.

Joan Pearson
April 19, 2006 - 11:54 pm
Has anyone seen Hats? Don't want to lose her (or any of you) on this perilous trail!
Think of this book as two books. It's the second, PART II that earns "the greatest novel ever written" title. This one that we are reading is considered another tale of knight-errantry, though a bit off-beat. Yet, Part I is the one many of us have given up on. We have no idea of what is in store for us - or the KNIGHT!

Part I is our introduction to Don Q. - Let's persevere on to Part II, even if the there are stumbling blocks along the way. It seems our knight is following the innkeeper's advice and trying to return home to better prepare for his mission - BUT things aren't looking promising for him today -


Click to enlarge Dore's etching

marni0308
April 20, 2006 - 02:05 am
3. Is it significant that his niece and his housekeeper believe that all the valuable books in Don Quixote's library should be burned?

Absolutely. They blame the books for the Don's state of mind. They, obviously, do need understand the value of books. The housekeeper thinks the books are a nuisance.

Why not just discard them, or better yet, sell them? Book burnings were a part of the Inquisition. Book burnings are something that always seem to happen when one group wants to stifle knowledge and thinking in order to rule. Books equate to ideas which lead to independent reasoning which may lead to rebellion.

I think Cervantes is very brave to write this book in those times. He cloaks his message with comedy. The curate and the barber are comic characters as they argue over the merits of each book, deciding whether or not to toss each into the flames. But this is very serious business, not comedy at all. We find that the Don has quite an extensive library filled with important books, not just books of knightly chivalry.

We see that the curate and the barber are very familiar with the books - they have read many of them and know something of their value. It's interesting to see that a curate and a barber are the ones who make the decisions as to whether a book is destroyed or not - books that Don Quixote sold his land to buy. Some, they can't bear to burn. Yet, many are tossed in the flames, as the church and government burned important books throughout Spain and in the New World.

Poor Don Quixote has no say in this matter at all. The books were his life, his world for so long and led him to his life's goal.

hegeso
April 20, 2006 - 09:06 am
Sorry, I must put a private message here for TraudeS.

Traude, my second email to you came back as undeliverable. I will have to send snail mail to you. What on earth is happening to your email address?

kiwi lady
April 20, 2006 - 10:26 am
Don Q is a naive madman. Look at what happened when on the way home he rescued that young boy from his cruel employer. He really believes the man will be intimidated by his actions without him ensuring that the man follows through on the promise to pay his employee and quit ill treating him. Any real knight would have followed the man home to ensure the boy was justly treated. Not all insane people are as naive as Don Q.

Carolyn

1amparo
April 20, 2006 - 10:58 am
G'day all.

I am in in Adelaide, Australia Central time: 10.30am., Sydney: 11am, WA: (Perth) 9am.

Let's see the times in USA.... call it 6pm. SeniorNet time.

Cheers,

Amparo

Traude S
April 20, 2006 - 01:16 pm
Good to be back in the saddle and reconnected.
After only six chapters it is definitely to soon to declare the Don mad, IMHO.

The Grossman translation has arrived. The Introduction is by Harold Bloom. Grossman's Note to the Reader outlines her approach to the original text and how she decided to render it in English.
The Grossman translation includes the Poetry after the Prologue, which Putnam chose to exclude from his translation.

Now I'm all set.

gumtree
April 20, 2006 - 04:46 pm
Seniornet time - I think Perth 9am is about 6pm YESTERDAY on SN time

It really is too soon for me to make judgments about what Cervantes is up to in these early chapters let alone decide what sort of character Quixote is.

Slapstick has never been a turn on for me so the comic aspects are difficult. So far I see Q as a sad and lonely fellow, (if not a tragic figure,) given to brooding and with no kindred spirit with whom to discuss matters - he needed Seniornet!

The book burning was a brave thing for Cervantes to have broached at that time bearing in mind that the Inquisition was itself burning troublesome books.

I was interested that when the neice and housekeeper talk about Quixote's irrational behaviour after he had been reading his novels about the knights errant they also say that he would always come to his senses once he had taken in 'a full pitcher of water' - so evidently he was severely dehydrated which can effect behaviour patterns and disorder the senses. I think Cervantes was well aware of the need for adequate water to maintain general health including mental processes. On that showing Quixote is not really mad and maybe just needs looking after.

1amparo
April 20, 2006 - 05:43 pm
Well folks, ¡albricias!,as DQ would say, I finally have my old-new laptop back; six months old and already has had three "motherboards" under original guarantee... is that a record? I am not very happy with HP, still they have been good.

Now, lets us see: I don't think YESTERDAY is correct, gumtree. Here now: FRIDAY 21st April and 5.15pm. And when I posted the times earlier on it was Friday am.

Amparo.

hats
April 20, 2006 - 06:21 pm
JoanP,

I haven't gotten lost. No matter whether Cerevantes meant for Don Q to appear mad or just as a fellow worth a laugh, he is successful in making me care about Don Q. I like Don Q. DonQ isn't out to purposely hurt anyone. Don Q just wants to make the world a better place. It's a big goal for one little man. It's a lofty goal too.

Like PatH, I feel there are many layers to this story. I can already see important life lessons for myself. Even without the moral layer, it's a really good story. I do laugh and feel sad. The story, so far, shakes me all around like a roller coaster.

JoanP and Deems,

I am remembering the idea of looking at the book as two books. Thanks.

Marni,

I am glad you explained about the book burning. It was a very upsetting scene for me. Thank you for pointing out the Inquisition in this post and another post.

Phyll
April 21, 2006 - 06:24 am
I'm liking the Don, too, and I'm wondering if the inn keeper is finding that though he may have initially thought of the Don as a loony that he is developing an admiration for this irrepressible man, albeit a grudging admiration. How can you not like someone who looks at two rather "shop worn" women and sees them as "ladies" or finds the keeper of what is probably a rather scruffy country inn to be the "Lord of the Castle". It's hard to not like someone who views the world through such romantically rosy glasses, isn't it? I think the inn keeper truly came to like Don Q and went along with his dream of knighthood.....he was drawn into the game just as we are when we read this wonderful book.

Joan Pearson
April 21, 2006 - 06:58 am
Well look who's here!!! We go down for a few hours and while we were "out, " Phyll came along! with a message for us - our Don us an "irrepressible romantic"...Oh yes, this is going to be quite an adventure!

So happy you have joined us once again. Welcome, dear friend! (I'm knitting a second sweater, same pattern as the one you helped with before. If I have any problems with this one, I can ask you - right here!)

Amparo, it wasn't your new-old laptop this time. It should be fine now. (will you explain one more time - are you ahead or behind of SN time? I'm assuming you are about 7.5 hours ahead of CA, so that when you read this, it will be Saturday morning? And you are sleeping now as I type?) Traudee, can't wait to hear how the Grossman translation suits. Albricias to both of you!

Marni, Gum I too think Cervantes was brave to write as he did. I read somewhere (will try to find the source) that he remained committed to his Church, to Catholicism AND to his art throughout his life. Not an easy feat during the time during the time in which he lived, wrote...and worshipped.

How difficult it must have been for Cervantes, for anyone to maintain belief in a Church which was administering such injustice. Carolyn, this reminds me of the farmer's boy, who had little choice but to believe that Don Q. really was a knight who would protect him. We are left to believe his faith was ill-placed when the farmer resumed beating him as soon as the knight was out of sight. Did the boy really believe Don Q had power over the farmer?

Hats, I don't dig slapstick much either. I wish I did. I envy those who get such a kick out of it. I prefer wry, dry humor...understated. Cervantes seems to provide both types. I was amused to see him introduce himself into the story as a character, a friend of the priest - slipping in a reminder that the second book promises to be an eye opener that will bring Cervantes the acclaim he deserves...

kiwi lady
April 21, 2006 - 07:16 am
I definately hate slapstick comedy. I love the satirical humour that the Brits do so very well.Maybe its because I am mostly British in my heritage and its what I grew up with.

Carolyn

Phyll
April 21, 2006 - 07:36 am
If I can keep this old nag moving fast enough to keep up with all of the rest of you I'll be close enough to hear your call for help but I doubt that you will need it for you are so experienced now. I've packed my knitting needles in my saddle bags but I must be careful not to let the Don see them for fear he will mistake them for lances and challenge me to a "knightly" joust. I'm certain that my old nag could never outrun even poor, old Rozinante!

Mippy
April 21, 2006 - 07:36 am
I was very glad to see those posts on the Inquisition and how it relates to books being burned. Not to mention so-called heretics being burned.
Perhaps the Don has to sleep while his library is being destroyed so that he doesn't go mad -- even more mad -- with grief!

...sorry to have been out so much; Latin exam week has been going on ...

marni0308
April 21, 2006 - 08:07 am
JoanP: Re "How difficult it must have been for Cervantes, for anyone to maintain belief in a Church which was administering such injustice."

It will be interesting to read what you found about Cervantes and the church.

It would have been a heretical thing to do to deny the Church. Sounds like something the Inquisition would burn Cervantes for. Probably was smart thinking to remain a believer.

marni0308
April 21, 2006 - 08:27 am
Amparo: G'day. Hope your laptop works better now. We bought my son an HP laptop for school in August and so far so good. Sounds like yours is a lemon. Hope you have good luck now.

marni0308
April 21, 2006 - 08:27 am
Re time in the world.....Someone awhile back on SeniorNet pointed out that we can find out time around the world on our PC. Double click on the time in the lower right-hand corner of your window so the "Date and Time Properties" window pops open. Click Time Zone and scroll down to the zone you are interested in. You'll see all times in terms of GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) plus or minus hours. For example, US and Canadian Eastern Standard Time is GMT minus (-) 5 hours.

To see the actual time of an area, Select it by clicking on the zone and then click on the Apply button. You'll see the exact time in that time zone now on your PC in the lower right-hand corner. Put your PC back in your own time zone by repeating these steps except you select your own time zone and Apply.

SeniorNet post time seems to be Pacific Time (US & Canada) which is GMT minus 8 hours.

JoanK
April 21, 2006 - 12:51 pm
Well, I'm back from California and more or less over my jet lag. By the time I could finally get into SN, I'm 50 posts behind!! Interesting posts all.

Still can't see the humor and jauntiness many of you do. Perhaps because I don't like slapstick. But I don't see the wry humor either. But I'm working on it. I'm also grateful that Joan pointed out that the mule driver is like a cartoon character -- blown up in one frame, and back whole in the next. That helps.

Does it make sense to think of Cervantes starting out to write a satire of books of chivalry and his aims expanding as he went along?

KleoP
April 21, 2006 - 01:03 pm
We read The Good Soldier Shvejk (Jaroslav Hashek) in my on-line club. I hesitated about reading it because it is a deeply satirical novel. It is interesting in being an anti-war novel written in the early 1920s, long before the genre reached its current acclaim.

The satire was very difficult for my fellow readers to take. Only a couple of us enjoyed and appreciated it. I don't consider either farce or satire to be the literary equivalent of slapstick. I don't like slapstick in movies and never have. Slapstick is different, it makes fun of everyone in a silly way, it's not sophisticated.

Cervantes is not making fun of everyone. I'm not even certain he is mocking Don Quixote. I don't think he's as transparent as he seems.

Kleo

Deems
April 21, 2006 - 01:51 pm
Well goodness sakes alive! There's Phyll! Welcome to ye, Phyll, and good to see you again.

I have no time since it is now almost midnight here on the US east coast (interesting about clicking on the clock and checking time zones--didn't know about that), and I've been up forever and must get to bed.

But I'm glad to be back UP again (SeniorNet) and will be back tomorrow in keener spirits.

Joan K--I think that your idea is a great one. How about thinking of Cervantes as a man who started out to tell a story showing the craziness of all those romantic novels and creating a character (whom I think he became quite fond of rather quickly, as one does of one's children, real or imagined) and then going on the road with him to see where that road might lead.

What a really really good idea. Especially since this sounds so much like the way the writers I know write.

Good to hear that HP came through again on the laptop, Amparo. I have a HP laptop that is still doing well (knocking wood between types).

G'night, all, Maryal

1amparo
April 21, 2006 - 05:41 pm
Oh me gosh! You most certainly would be challenged and not for knitting needles. Poor ROCINANTE, his pure Castilian name downgraded to RoZinante! Repent ye while there is time!

Amparo

1amparo
April 21, 2006 - 05:59 pm
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

Adelaide is 9.30 hours ahead of Greenwhich GMT

Amparo

CathieS
April 21, 2006 - 10:13 pm
2. Does the farmer's boy really believe in Don Quixote? Who is bound to suffer more, those who believe in Don Quixote's vision of knighthood, or those who do not?

Unfortunately, those who the Don "helps" seem to go from bad to worse. It's more an issue of the Don's reactions than the people's reactions to him, imho.

B>3. Consider what it is that provokes the second young muledriver to break his lance and beat the fallen knight once he is down and helpless?

We are told that he was insulted by DQ's statements and his rage got the best of him- and the Don.

Why did he choose to mediate over the passages he did?

When gets in a fix, he recalls different stories and tries to find a solution to his present problem in the reading he recalls.

2. What do we learn about how Don Quixote is regarded in his home town from the farmer who comes upon him in the road?

They seem to hold him in very kindly regard. The farmer even delays entering the village so the others won't see what a poor knight DQ is.

CathieS
April 21, 2006 - 10:15 pm
A reference has been made to many bogging down in part I. Is part II any different? is this whole book a series misadventures?

Deems
April 22, 2006 - 12:35 am
Good morning!

I think I have just reread the exact chapter where many bog down. It's Chapter 6, all about Don Quixote's library and the burning of many--though not all--of his books.

Cervantes' contemporary audience would have loved this chapter since they would have found all the titles (for which we need footnotes) familiar. They would most likely have read many of the books. Probably they had loved many!

But the contemporary reader needs footnotes just to identify the authors of these romances (or books of pastoral poetry) since none are familiar now.

If you read the footnotes, pay special attention to when the books were published. It gives you a good idea of how very popular these books about knight-errantry and chivalry were. We knew before that there must have been a lot of them since they have caused Quixote's mind to turn and since he read them sometimes two days and nights at a time. He must have had a goodly supply.

This is the funniest chapter yet to me because the priest wants to save certain of the books (the ones with which he is familiar and that are therefore worth keeping) and is willing to put Cervantes' book, La Galatea, on hold (with the barber) until the second part appears so that the whole can be judged. His judgment of La Galatea, Cervantes first published book (1585), as it stands is that "it proposes something and concludes nothing." Today we would say, the book just doesn't deliver.

My footnote tells me that this second part of La Galatea never appeared in print and that whatever drafts there were have disappeared.

The barber also has his favorites.

The niece is a complete boob when it comes to reading. She apparently either can't read or never has read any of these many books. She wants all the books burned, even the poetry books which the priest would allow to escape the fire.

Her reason is that if her uncle recovers from his present delusion, he will take to reading all those books of pastoral poetry (with many many poems about shepherds and shepherdesses and their love) and decide that he is a shepherd and wander the country-side like a lunatic, once again embarrassing the family.

Much as I love this chapter it's my guess that many readers who start Quixote and then put it aside stop after this chapter.

My very favorite part of chap. 6 occurs when the priest says that he knows this Cervantes personally! He isn't familiar with the author's name or the work but with the actual man who did the writing! So early in the book, we get a mixing of the fictional world and the real world. Very postmodern!

Did any of you get a kick out of chapter 6 and what sorts of footnotes do you have? Those in Grossman's translation are good.

~Maryal

Traude S
April 22, 2006 - 01:39 am
With everyone's indulgence, may I reply here to HEGESO's # 128 because e-mail communication between us has inexplicably broken down.

HEGESO, the blame lies with AOL, my ISP, and I have contacted them for an explanation. An e-mail I sent you was just returned by the Mail Daemon. I have no idea what could have caused such breakdown, though it is not the first time.
Well, internet service is clearly not as perfect as we expect it to be.
HEGESO, I will snail mail but also continue efforts to having e-mail contact restored.

Thank you all for allowing me this digression. T

marni0308
April 22, 2006 - 01:50 am
Here's the Gustave Dore "frontpiece" or cover from an edition of Don Quixote published in 1877. (Scroll down toward the middle of the page to see the beautiful large picture.)

Dore Cover

Joan Pearson
April 22, 2006 - 08:16 am
Oh, that's lovely, Marni! I wish I could read an elegant old copy like that...rather than this paperback. Reading such a copy would remind me just how old this story really is.

I've been googling while we lost in space - I'm still not sure SN is stable, so I'll try to get information here before we go off again - I've also been reading your thought-provoking posts. So much to talk about today, where to begin?!

I take back yesterday's comment on slapstick comedy, Scootz. - I love John Cleese! I can watch "Fawlty Towers" reruns and always laugh as hard - outrageously irreverent, poking fun at everyone and everything. Waiting for JoanK to admit the slightest glimmer of a smile at Cervantes' humor, playfulness. Admittedly there are serious topics just beneath the surface - perhaps they have your attention, Joan, i.e. the Inquisition. I know you will be incensed to learn of the books that were being censored and burned during this time.
JoanK, from what I've read, that's exactly what happened. Cervantes started out hoping to write a better story of chivalry and knight-errantry than his contemporaries were putting out...and while he was at, an idea was forming for Volume II. That's our goal right now - to get to Volume II - intact as a group. Yes, from what I can tell the first Volume is a series misadventures in which we come to know Don Q. and Sancho Panza and the time and place in which they lived.
I've considered just reading Volume II before, but without Volume I, we don't know the Don and that's key to understanding the second.

Maybe this would be a good time to get the terminology straight, so that when we took about "Part I" and "Part II", we don't get confused with "Volume I" and "Volume II." We are reading the first of two VOLUMES right now. The first volume is made up of Four "Parts" - (We will finish "Part I" next week.)

Okay, I'll go get some of the Google results. Marni was interested hearing more about Cervantes' Catholicism and Mippy, the Inquisition -

Joan Pearson
April 22, 2006 - 08:21 am
Marni, it probably was smart thinking for him to remain a believer. But I read that he was trained by the Jesuits and was devoted to the writings of Erasmus. His religion seems to be the real thing, rather than a safe haven. I searched Google to find where I read that Cervantes remained Catholic throughout his life and came up with several interesting sites. Originally I read of his Catholicism in Harold Bloom's essay - maybe it's the same as his introduction to Grossman's translation?
"Although Cervantes is ceaselessly careful to be faithfully Catholic, we do not read Don Quixote as a pious work."


I googled and found a bit more, but not much -
"Shakespeare was not professedly a Catholic, although some have tried to make out that he came from a Catholic milieu. Cervantes was part of Philip II's Spain, and you could not be in Philip II's Spain, or sixteenth century Spain, without being aware of your religion, of your faith. Cervantes wrote as a Catholic..."Cervantes and Catholicism

And more -
"Cervantes lived during a historical period when Spain was experiencing its Golden Age and the Reformation was turning Europe into a battleground in which the Turks aggressively fought the Catholic Spaniards for power. A Catholic and patriot, Cervantes was devoutly religious and loyal to his country Cervantes devoutly religious


And finally...last rites on his deathbed -
"Cervantes was not destined to see it in print. (Volume II). He was attacked by dropsy, and, on the 18th of April 1616, received the sacrament of extreme unction; next day he wrote the dedication of Persiles y Sigismunda to the count de Lemos -- the most moving and gallant of farewells.

He died at Madrid in the Calle del León on the 23rd of April; he was borne from his house "with his face uncovered", according to the rule of the Tertiaries of St. Francis, and on the 24th of April was buried in the church attached to the convent of the Trinitarian nuns in the Calle de Cantarranas. There he rests -- the story of his remains being removed in 1633 to the Calle del Humilladero has no foundation in fact -- but the exact position of his grave is unknown." Last rites, Extreme Unction

Joan Pearson
April 22, 2006 - 08:24 am
Mippy, what did you think of the Latin exam? Summa cum laude?

I know you are interested in hearing more about the Inquisition. We've got a while to sort it all out, but some historical background information should help and also, the type of books that were being burned. I'm still trying to understand why the barber has been involved in the "Inquisition" in the Library - and also how he learned to read all those books in the Don's collection. And I was interested in learning more about what sort of books were actually burned during the Inquisition.

First of all, the Church and Literacy
The Church and Literacy
"The Church, which since the fall of Rome had been the center of European culture, had lost its dominance. Now laymen (and a few women) wrote works in the vernacular languages that dealt with this world rather than the next and artists, often supported by lay patrons, composed works that concentrated on the human not the divine.

The Church was no longer the strong and self-confident institution that had exercised so much power during the high middle ages....

"One reason for the relative decline in the church's centrality was the rapid growth in lay literacy. The clergy no longer enjoyed a monopoly of learning. While the vast majority of the European population remained illiterate, the upper classes and many of the bourgeoisie now could read. And they had much more to read, because Gutenberg's invention of movable type had begun the world's first communication revolution.

The situation was different in other parts of Europe. In Spain, Charles enforced conformity to the orthodox church by using the already existing Spanish Inquisition. The Inquisition rooted out any opinions contrary to the accepted doctrine. In parts of Italy, the Inquisition was active as well."
Jean Mason Early Modern European History ~ 16th/17th century


Now here's something from Wikipedia describing some of the books that were burned in Spain at this time -
In 1499 or 1500, in Andalucia, Spain, over a million Arabic and Hebrew books from one of the richest collections in history were burned on the orders of Cisneros, Archbishop of Granada Many of the poetic works were allegedly destroyed on account of their symbolized homoeroticism."


And a more comprehensive article describing a broader picture of the burning of books in Spain during the Inquisition...

Mippy, I don't want to be there when the poor Don wakes from his sleep and finds his only real possessions are gone.

Joan Pearson
April 22, 2006 - 08:29 am
Scootz, we need to keep a list of those who are harmed by the Don's help. And note how his actions harm him. That muledriver was incensed that the knight wouldn't yell "uncle" once he was down - and as usual, his demands of expressions of respect and admissions of Dulcinea's beauty are at the heart of it. I can't wait to meet the lady!

I'm confused about the people in this small town. They know he has sold his valuable land for books..., think he must be mad, and yet they continue to hold him in high regard and protect him from the eyes of the other villagers?

Maryal, I admit to skimming over the unfamiliar book titles in the library, and relying on footnotes for clues as to why they were condemned. The most interesting footnote in this chapter, to me, followed the priest's comment, "In which case all we have to do, said the priest, "is hand them over to the secular arm (1), which is the housekeeper."

(1)"A blatant allusion to the Spanish Inquisition, an ecclesiastical tribunal that investigated persons suspected of crimes against religion, who, if condemned, would be handed over to the "secular arm"or ordinary tribunal for burning.
We all know how the "secular arm" will deal with these condemned books!

kiwi lady
April 22, 2006 - 08:48 am
That is a lovely book!

carolyn

Pat H
April 22, 2006 - 09:26 am
I haven’t been very lucky in catching the windows of opportunity of posting on SN. Let’s hope I can get this up.

I found chapter 6 sad and funny, and also very interesting from a social aspect. It’s horrible to think of all the books Don Q so lovingly collected, selling his land to do so, being callously burned.

But look what happens: the scene morphs into a kind of kangaroo court, where the books are people, being tried on their merits. Some are condemned, some saved, some are even prescribed a dose of rhubarb, a purgative—doctors at that time thought that purgatives cleared the body of evil humors.

It’s a picture of arbitrary "justice" everywhere. Only chance saves you from the flames. You might get shoveled into the flames because "let’s burn all the remaining big volumes" or saved because you fall at the feet of the barber, who happens to remember enjoying reading you, or because the priest knows your author.

It’s also surely a comment on the Inquisition, and I wonder what Cervantes was risking by writing it. I don’t see him as a big risk taker, but maybe I’m wrong.

I bet there is also a lot of humor in the comments on the books, for anyone who knew what they were like.

Amparo, thank you for the compliment, but I think the excellence lies in my dictionary, not my Spanish.

Pat H
April 22, 2006 - 09:39 am
Arithmetic:

In her interview, Edith Grossman says that Cervantes deliberately put in some arithmetical mistakes to say that his failures as tax collector were due to lack of numerical skills. In chapter 4 (Raffel) "...Don Q inquired just how much his master owed him. The boy said for 9 months at 7 dollars a month. Don Q did his arithmetic, and calculated the sum at 73 dollars...."

Phyll
April 22, 2006 - 10:13 am
"Poor ROCINANTE, his pure Castilian name downgraded to RoZinante! Repent ye while there is time!"

I beg your pardon, and that of Rocinante, but I must claim ignorance of your lovely language and a misguided dependence upon an apparently poor translation. My copy of Don Quixote has been translated by Walter Starkie and he has the Don speaking this: "Rozinante, ladies, is the name of my horse, and Don Quixote of La Mancha my own." From now on I will honor this poor horse, "with cracks in his hoof and all skin and bones", with his pure Castilian name. After all, it seems only fair to give him that honor when he is just embarking on his long and arduous road.

Hey, Maryal, it will be like old times, riding the trail again with you. Hope the wine will be of better quality this time than it was on the road to Canterbury.

marni0308
April 22, 2006 - 01:11 pm
That was interesting, JoanP, to hear that Cervantes had a Jesuit education. Weren't the Jesuits known for their intellectualism? Weren't they staunch believers in education? I think they were a rather radical sect. I should know more about this because my son went to Boston College, a Jesuit school; but we aren't Catholic and I didn't really investigate this much.

If Cervantes had a Jesuit education, I believe he would have had an excellent education. I should look up Jesuits.....

Hmmm.....Wikipedia says The Society of Jesus (Jesuits) was founded in 1534 by Saint Ignatius of Loyola. Pretty new organization in Cervantes' time....

.....Yes, Wikipedia says: "Their work is focused on education and intellectual contributions, primarily at colleges and universities, as well as missionary work and ministry in human rights and social justice.....

"The Jesuits’ contributions to the late Renaissance were significant in their roles both as a missionary order and as the first religious order to operate colleges and universities as a principal and distinct ministry. By the time of Ignatius' death in 1556, the Jesuits were already operating a network of 74 colleges on three continents. A precursor to liberal education, the Jesuit plan of studies incorporated the Classical teachings of Renaissance humanism into the Scholastic structure of Catholic thought. In addition to teaching faith, the Ratio Studiorum emphasized the study of Latin, Greek, classical literature, poetry, and philosophy as well as non-European languages, sciences and the arts. Furthermore, Jesuit schools encouraged the study of vernacular literature and rhetoric, and thereby became important centers for the training of lawyers and public officials. The Jesuit schools played an important part in winning back to Catholicism a number of European countries which had for a time been predominantly Protestant, notably Poland.....

"When developed, Jesuits concentrated on three activities. First, they founded superb schools throughout Europe. Jesuit teachers were rigorously trained in both classical studies and theology. The Jesuits' second mission was to convert non-Christians to Catholicism, so they developed and sent out missionaries. Their third goal was to stop Protestantism from spreading. The zeal of the Jesuits overcame the drift toward Protestantism in Poland and southern Germany."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits

1amparo
April 22, 2006 - 03:45 pm
Joan P post 156

“…respect and admissions of Dulcinea's beauty are at the heart of it. I can't wait to meet the lady!” Take a very comfortable chair and put you feet up my friend.

Pat H post 159:

”In chapter 4 (Raffel) "...Don Q inquired just how much his master owed him. The boy said for 9 months at 7 dollars a month. Don Q did his arithmetic, and calculated the sum at 73 dollars...." Pardiez! I hope the $ dollars translation is a mistake because if Raffel really did translate as such…; a la hoguera con él!

Amparo

kiwi lady
April 22, 2006 - 04:30 pm
Either Don Quixote was bad at math or the translator was a bad translator!

1amparo
April 22, 2006 - 06:03 pm
d. Quixote, was a cultured man and good at maths too:

---nueve meses, a siete reales cada mes. Hizo la cuenta d. Quijote y halló que montaban a sesenta y tres (63) reales...

“73” would have been “seTenta y tres”.

Amparo

gumtree
April 22, 2006 - 06:30 pm
Thanks everyone for all your posts and links - will never find time to do them all justice.

Ch 5 'Don - lying on the ground, encased in armour, injured and unable to move' - I'd say that he chose to meditate on his books of knight errantry because he doesn't know what to do next and thinks that if he follows some other knight's action he will discover just what it is he should do to save the day (or at least himself).

Ch6 - 'Why would the priest send for the barber...and were you surprised at the barber's literacy...?' Not surprised at all as the 'Barber' was usually the 'surgeon' as well. I seem to remember reading that Cervantes father, Rodrigo? had received a fairly good education for the time and that during his varied career he worked often as a Barber/surgeon.

Ch 6 really sparks my interest in this book and judging by several posts it does the same for others, Not only does it tell us just what books Quixote has been reading but introduces us to arbitrary nature of the 'inquisition' The priest's yardsticks are perhaps laughable but in all fairness his own experience is all he has to judge the books by.This scene has a feel of authenticity to it that I like.

I will be absent for the next week or so while we go south into the timber country and I get to hug a few giant trees. I might find somewhere with access to IN down there but I don't think I'll be able to find any 'hookah dens' in the forest even though some small communities do have a reputation for growing all kinds of weeds. I dread to think of the number of posts waiting when I get back -In haste....

Pat H
April 22, 2006 - 08:02 pm
Math

My Spanish copy says "seTenta y tres reales", with a footnote pointing out that it should be sesenta, and asking if this is don Quijote's mistake or Cervantes', or perhaps a misprint.

Raffel does indeed translate "reales" as "dollars", which I thought was particularly grating and pointless.

kiwi lady
April 23, 2006 - 01:33 am
Reales are definately not dollars. There is a detailed explanation of my currency in the notes in my copy of the book.

carolyn

Joan Pearson
April 23, 2006 - 02:14 am
Good Sunday morning, all. Cool and gray and raining here in the DC area - but your posts light up the day!

Phyll - should have warned you - Amparo polices the translations and demands pure Castilian. Amparo, are we to understand that Cervantes spoke/wrote Castilian? What exactly does this mean? Carolyn - "Either Don Quixote was bad at math or the translator was a bad translator!" Or as PAT's translator notes...Cervantes did it deliberately I'd hoped the Raffel footnote was correct, Pat - I find it so much more amusing. But now Amparo What is your verdict - did Raffel mistranslate, or did Cervantes err playfully on purpose? When you say "seTenta y tres" would have been 73, you are quoting from the Spanish "a sesenta y tres (63) reales" Makes me wonder how Grossman, Smollett and other translations viewed this. Also if they use "dollars" as Raffel does. I too found that grating, Pat, but had forgotten until you brought it up.

Have a good trip. Gum -do hug a giant tree for me. Hahahaha, no, no hookah dens for you - though Kleo had pointed out they are harmless. Take DonQ. along as your pillow. You can read at night by the campfire. Finish Part II and you'll be in good shape.

Good point about the barber being a surgeon. Hopefully he had an education before taking up his medical practice. I wonder why he is referred to as "the barber" rather than doctor?

Marni, interesting commentary on Jesuit education. I think of them providing both a solid education - and also considered LIBERAL by the Church. Freedom of expression is another hallmark of a Jesuit. He surely had to be careful, writing during the time of the Inquisition.

There was a particular statement in Chapter IV that hit me when I first read it and find I cannot let go of - it's in Question I of Chapter IV in the header -
"Each of us is as each does."
I wonder how this is translated in your editions? - "Each man is the child of his deeds." This must have had quite an impact on his readers, don't you think? A man IS what he DOES. Not what he is born with, or how society regards him - but what he DOES with WHAT he has. I'd love to hear what you thought when you read that?

Off to use the coconut I couldn't find for the bunny cake last week. A coconut custard pie in the oven would be nice on a cold rainy day like this. Super Sunday, everyone!

Phyll
April 23, 2006 - 03:15 am
RIP
Miguel de Cervantes
April 23rd, 1616


To still be remembering a man and his work 390 years after his death is quite a testament to his genius, I think.

Deems
April 23, 2006 - 03:22 am
Phyll, fear not. I have discovered that our refreshment for this long journey will be as many casks of Amontillado as we need, not to mention fresh mounts and as many clean shirts as we need. The casks of Amontillado are in the wagon that is following us.

I have reales in Grossman. She also leaves insula instead of translating it as "island."

Somewhere I saw a note that at some point Cervantes was put in prison for a financial misdeed. He claimed that he had simply messed up with the math. This simple arithmetic joke is his revenge. The part about his being in prison for some financial misstep is true, but I don't know about the error in math.

Off to take a friend to an art show. Then off to JoanP's to get some of that coconut custard pie, fresh from her oven.

Maryal

Phyll
April 23, 2006 - 03:41 am
I am muchly relieved! A cask of Amontillado! Hmmmmmm.....that sounds like a good title.

BTW, in the Starkie translation that I am reading, it says that Don Q. factors the amount owed by the master to his servant to be 63.00 reals. And that is of course the correct amount. So, apparently the translator corrected the faulty math and I couldn't understand what you were all talking about at first. Apparently a translator can, and does, arbitrarily change the entire meaning from what the author intended. I wonder just how much of the rest of the book has been skewed by this translator.

Joan Pearson
April 23, 2006 - 04:45 am
Phyll, you bring back Canterbury days. Less eating here, though, less copulation, less flatulence! (What shall we do for fun, Scootz?)

Phyll reminds us to take off our hats and helmets to remember Cervantes' death day. A coincidence that the same date marks Shakespeare's grave marker? Want another one?...today at the Folger Library, we're celebrating Shakespeare's BIRTHDAY as well. How many people do you know who die on their birthdays?

Pie is cooling, room at the table for anyone passing by.

marni0308
April 23, 2006 - 07:05 am
Oh, boy. We sipped Madeira (often) in the Founding Mothers discussion in March. Now we're going to have libations of Amontillado with JoanP's pie. Yummy!

Cervantes didn't have to call the barber the surgeon. Surgery is just what barbers did - stuff like bleeding people - that was one of their main jobs. That's why barber poles have the line twining down and around - representing blood:

"Red and white stripped poles date back to the Middle Ages when barber shop attendants pulled teeth and treated illnesses by bleeding clients, especially with leeches. The red and white colors on the poles represented blood stained white bandages that were washed and hung out to dry. The pole, itself, supposedly represented the staff which the patient clung to during the barber's treatments. Originally, there was a cup at the bottom of the pole to hold the leeches. It is believed that the blue was added as a third color by Americans to commemorate the colors of the flag."

http://www.gameroomantiques.com/Barber.htm

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 23, 2006 - 10:41 am
I am here enjoying the posts and the book, however I have a hard time to read in French and comment in English. I find my translation just wonderful and I don't want to give it up for one in vernacular. DQ is so amusing and pathetic in his search for adventure and chivalry, you just want to protect him from himself and his delusions.

I doubt that anybody but the elite could read in the 16th century Spain. Books to the lower class were a waste of time and money and reading could certainly be blamed for DQ's silly behavior.

I see DQ as a classic cartoon as unbelievable and as chivalrous as Superman was to my children and not to be taken seriously.

I am anxiously waiting for someone to come up with the message.

1amparo
April 23, 2006 - 11:23 am
My copies of El Quijote, chapter iv said "sesenta y tres".

I have written to Instituto Cervantes and also Real Academia Española and hope they can answer if Cervantes wrote "sesenta" or "setenta" and in case of the latter if they can explain why.

Shall let you know if and when I received a reply. RAE are very good and they have always answered my questions, -this is not the first time they have helped with "El Quijote".

Amparo

Pat H
April 23, 2006 - 11:43 am
Amparo--my Spanish edition is the Edicion del IV Centenario, published by the Real Academia Espanola and the Associacion de Academias de la Lengua Espanola. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8420467286/sr=1-1/qid=1145842887/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4468198-9619942?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

Pat H
April 23, 2006 - 12:12 pm
Somehow the computer wouldn't let me continue my message. I feel lucky to have gotten this edition, because it is full of footnotes explaining differences in the meaning of words then and now, often helpful to me, with a glossary,too, with some further words. They published their first edition of Don Quijote in 1780. I also got a very good quality book for my 9 dollars--people who also read the Book Nook will appreciate that it has sewn signatures (although the boards are covered with paper). The paper is very pleasing quality, as is the typeface.

The footnote to "setenta y tres reales" reads: "Como puede comprobarse, son sesenta y tres: ?error de Quijote o de Cervantes?, ?o quiza errata?

How do you get a tilde? And is there a way of getting the upside down ? I wish we had a convention like that in English; it's useful to set off something doubtful on both sides--I use it all the time in personal notes.

marni0308
April 23, 2006 - 02:23 pm
Pat H: The tilde is a symbol available in Word. Have you used the Symbols feature there under Tools in the Menu? It's like making the macrons we use in Latin 101/102? Copy and paste from a Word document. For example:

señor

I can give more specific directions.

1amparo
April 23, 2006 - 02:48 pm
while 'NumLock' is on, on numbers' pad at right of typing-board, do press 'Alt' down and enter: 0241. -: Alt+0241. capital Ñ = Alt0209

See if it works.

Amparo

Pat H
April 23, 2006 - 02:50 pm
Marni, if it will carry over when I paste a Word document, I think I'm OK. I'll try and see.

Pat H
April 23, 2006 - 03:10 pm
"each of us is as each of us does"

Joan P--yes, that phrase brought me up short when I read it in Raffel, but I like it even better in Spanish: "cada uno es hijo de sus obras"-- roughly,"everyone is the child of his deeds". It's not a bad motto.

kidsal
April 23, 2006 - 05:33 pm
In Word: I get ¿ from pressing ALT and entering 168 on numbers pad. Alt 132 ä Alt 148 ö Alt 129 ü Alt 160 á Alt 162 ó Alt 163 ú Alt 164 ñ Alt 161 í Alt 162 ó Alt 165 Ñ Alt 130 é

Phyll
April 23, 2006 - 11:57 pm
That phrase caught my attention, also, but so did this one:

"The devil lurks behind the Cross." What does that mean to the rest of you? Some translations apparently have, in addition, the phrase, "All that glitters is not gold." Are these two phrases synonymous, do you think?

Joan Pearson
April 24, 2006 - 12:31 am
Good morning, fellow adventurers,

Our second week on the road! We haven't gone very far, have we. Back home, repacking... rethinking the advisability of the quest, perhaps? Listen, if you are finding the going a rough one, if you find you are "slogging" through details, names of unfamiliar books and historical characters, please speak up - we are determined to make it to Volume II and believe there is much to delight in Volume I.

Do you find yourself feeling the "protector" of the pathetic, though amusing DQ as Eloise sees him? Like the serious child no one takes seriously? Eloise, we are waiting for YOU to come up with Cervantes' message! The novel is often described as a "cautionary tale." We need to keep eyes and ears open.

Pat H. - "everyone is the child of his deeds" - a great motto, yes! Right now, at this early stage, I'd say that this is Cervantes' message. I can almost imagine the impact this had on his readers! Did anyone believe it when they read it? Did they think the one who wrote such nonsense was as daft as the knight? Did acting a knight, make Quixote a knight?

I'm so impressed, Amparo's relationship with the Real Academia Expanola and Pat with their translation in hand, reading the footnote in Spanish! Aren't we so fortunate? Thnk of the many who have set out to read Quixote and are so overwhelmed they give up on it? I look at this time with you as the only way I will ever get to experience this adventure in my life!

Amparo it worked! Alt 0241=ñ ! Alt 0209 = ÑI'm going to put this in the heading later today for future reference. Kidsal thank you! ¿ from pressing ALT and entering 168 on numbers pad. Alt 132 ä Alt 148 ö Alt 129 ü Alt 160 á Alt 162 ó Alt 163 ú Alt 164 ñ Alt 161 í Alt 162 ó Alt 165 Ñ Alt 130 é

Will add these too!

Good morning, Phyll - hmmm, does that which lurks behind the cross mean the same as the attractive glittering gold? I would say so. This is great, let's keep track of those comments that catch our imagination. I think we will come to know the real Cervantes this way! I also expect to be amazed at the number of expressions we use everyday that he has penned!

This morning the knight wakes up to face the devastating surprise his "friends" have prepared for him! They did fast work renovating the place. Wish the workmen in our house worked at night...so quickly, so quietly we slept through the whole thing!

hats
April 24, 2006 - 01:20 am
I agree with Eloise fully. I feel the Don needs a protector. The Don has a good heart. He lacks, maybe, perserverence.Don Q is full of good intentions. The problem is how he will choose to resolve the problems around him. I have a feeling he might choose quantity over quality. In other words, Don Q will count his adventures successful by the deeds he encounters, not by whether his actions have truly and fully righted a wrong. I am not sure he will stay with one task, seeing it to its conclusion or resolution, before he will set off to embark on another adventure. For example the peasant boy ended up being beaten by his master once again after Don Q had left the scene. I am not sure Don Q handled the situation in the best way possible. It's really odd how he handled the book burning too.

hats
April 24, 2006 - 01:32 am
Maybe the Don needs a "keeper." I feel the Don is definitely mad. I want to call the Don harmless too. I might need to wait a bit before calling him harmless. A kind heart and a mad mind could lead to big trouble.

I think the barber, the priest, the niece and the housekeeper are saying whatever will please him. They are trying to keep the Don calm and stable.

"The priest at times contradicted him, and at other times he agreed because if he did not maintain this ruse, he would not have been able to talk to him."

Deems
April 25, 2006 - 04:08 am
Morning all,

Looks like SeniorNet is on its way back (again). Sigh.

I have a terrible cold and am behind at work, but this is the last week of classes so I have time to feel better and to catch up on Don Quixote.

Maryal

1amparo
April 25, 2006 - 04:54 am
RAE are updating their offices therefore they cannot answer any queries.

Institute Cervantes have put query on a forum; what a nest of hornets …! They seem to be as divided as we are. Anyone able to read Spanish can follow it:

http://cvc.cervantes.es/foros/leer_asunto1.asp?vCodigo=27444

Waiting on Biblioteca Nacional de España for their response.

Here is their webpage and E-Mail should anyone have questions they want answers to. "Biblioteca Nacional" is National Librery.

http://www.bne.es/esp/cocervantes.htm



Their EMail: docbib@bne.es

Anyone can write to them in English

Cheers

Amparo

Joan Pearson
April 25, 2006 - 06:34 am
Good morning, "Don-kies"! ( Well, come up with a better appellation for our group then!)

We're baaack. Actually, we haven't even started out on the road yet! Good thing, because we'd be stranded somewhere out in cyberspace if we had. Let's assume the best scenario. All the problems associated with moving to the new server have been resolved, and we can pick up right where we left off.

Maryal, nurse that cold, finish those classes - you can do it - and we'll be watching for you. If we ever get out on the road, Scootz (where's Scootz?) will leave a trail of bread crumbs for you. (Bread not made from wheat!)

Hats, we'll appoint you and Eloise as protectors of the knight, whenever he needs defending ... Amparo,too - (whose name means "protector" Amparo, I'm going to have to learn Spanish, the comments in Institute Cervantes seem too good! Happy to see you participating there and will count on you to forward to us their comments - in English!)

Reading Hats' comments, I recognize one of my own greatest shortcomings - "I am not sure he will stay with one task, seeing it to its conclusion or resolution, before he will set off to embark on another adventure."

"It's really odd how he handled the book burning too." Were you at all surprised at his reaction to the book burning? Not what I expected. Well, I did think he'd want to go into his library, but when he couldn't find it, he seemed to readily accept the loss as the work of his enemy, the evil magician. This surely sounds like "madness" - an indication how he is influenced by the fantastical tales he has read. They have become reality to him. Is he a danger to others? Perhaps if others believed him, he could be. Otherwise, he remains just one voice in the wilderness. Will anyone believe in his fantasies? Did the farmer's boy, as much as he wanted to? Does Sancho? Another case of believing because he wanted to?

"The priest at times contradicted him, and at other times he agreed because if he did not maintain this ruse, he would not have been able to talk to him." I'm looking at the priest as a representative of the Church during the Inquisition. The Church Fathers seem to approach heretical writings and teaching as dangerous, if they spread. They think as this priest did - if they can eliminate the effect of the heresies, they will succeed in eliminating the cause. Did the elimination of the Don's library eliminate his madness?

CathieS
April 25, 2006 - 06:48 am
4 Why did Quixote select Sancho Panza as his squire? What unusual promise did he make to Sancho in order to persuade him to leave wife and family and join his quest? Does Sancho believe in Quixote's knightly vision?

Panza is an illiterate laborer. maybe no one but this sort of fellow would have been stupid enough to go along with the craziness!! If DQ is mad, then how about SP? he falls for it all hook, line and sinker. What does this say about Sancho? Imagine leaving his wife and children for a scheme such as this! Ye Gods!

Yes, he believes the whole story about being given an insula to govern once DQ finds one. It's wacky!

Joan- actually, I'm a "donkey hoady!"lol

hats
April 25, 2006 - 06:52 am
I need to get my book again. For some reason, I had a feeling that Sancho had more commonsense than Don Q. I feel that living with poverty, a household and working should enable him to make better decisions than Don Q.

CathieS
April 25, 2006 - 06:56 am
Listen, if you are finding the going a rough one, if you find you are "slogging" through details, names of unfamiliar books and historical characters, please speak up -

Joan, Did you see my post re this on another board? I'll speak up, no problem. Compared to the Trollope I'm reading, this book is quite slow. I'm ok with this because I am only reading a chapter each morning. It's just a matter of taste. So far, DQ isn't thrilling me, but we're not even 100 pages in. It's just not my type of book, but still, I'm ok with keepin' on at this point. I certainly don't rush to the book every morning to see what's happening next. It's not that sort of book at all. And the Dore's are making it enjoyable too. Don't worry about me if this is why you posted, ok?

hats
April 25, 2006 - 07:02 am
I feel by taking the journey Sancho has his family's best interests in mind. After all, he is not looking at his master as mad. He sees Don Q as a nobleman. This nobleman has hit on hard times. Still, in Sancho's eyes, Don Q is a man with power. Also, if this nobleman is willing, he can set Sancho up for life. Sancho will have a kingdom. His children will become princes. Sancho admits his wife does have shortcomings. I think Sancho's wife would probably want him to leave the family for awhile and try to better their present life.

Is something wrong with me? I don't think the story is slow at all. I am anxious to see how all of this turns out.

1amparo
April 25, 2006 - 07:10 am
Here it is; in Cervantes own hand: "Quixote halló que montauan fetenta y tres reales" (73 reales)

The (mine) underlined is old Spanish for 'v'(b) & 's'.

If you want to see the original page -from Biblioteca Nacional-. And line 11 on the page:

http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/cerv/12371067559018288532624/ima0047.htm

Amparo

1amparo
April 25, 2006 - 07:24 am
I too, had tried to read English translations of El Quixote and found it/them quite boring, way out and nothing like the beauty of the original. So I am not surprised at some of the comments.

Amparo

CathieS
April 25, 2006 - 07:34 am
Hats said: Is something wrong with me? I don't think the story is slow at all

Why would something have to be wrong with you? This is simply a matter of taste in books. <Sigh>

amparo said:I too, had tried to read English translations of El Quixote and found it/them quite boring

It isn't even that it's boring so much as it's just not my taste in reading. I wish I could be as excited as some of you are. But then, that's why there's chocolate and vanilla. It's just ok for me so far. But I appreciate you understanding my comment, nonetheless. We don't all have to love DQ, do we? If so, I better pack my mule right now and right off into the sunset.

Amparo , you said:

I too, had tried to read English translations of El Quixote and found it/them quite boring, way out and nothing like the beauty of the original. So I am not surprised at some of the comments.

Now, this comment IS something that I find of interest. I haven't read a book in another language since high school (French) but I honestly don't understand your comment. Isn't the story the same? Why would I like the story any better in Spanish? I'm sincere here- I don't get this. Maybe you can help me understand.

hats
April 25, 2006 - 07:38 am
Scootz you are right. Different strokes for different folks. That's what makes the discussion fun and not boring.

CathieS
April 25, 2006 - 07:40 am
I do promise not to flood the board with negative comments because I frankly think that's rude and can spoil it for others. I've said enough of how I'm feeling by now. I don't have to beat my nag to make the point. And quien sabe'? perhaps I'll like it more as I go along.

KleoP
April 25, 2006 - 07:49 am
Scootz,

Satire is just not to everyone's taste. We read a farce, The Good Soldier Svejk and most of us loathed the book and couldn't finish it. Only a few liked it. I'm surprised at how well-read Don Quixote supposedly is, certainly not by this generation that does not seem to appreciate humor of this sort. I think it's rather hard to take, but I'm enjoying the voyage into Old Spain.

Kleo

hats
April 25, 2006 - 07:52 am
And my opinion might change along the way. This is a very long trek. Who knows how we will feel around the middle of the journey? I always start off enthusiastic at the beginning of a trip.

CathieS
April 25, 2006 - 07:54 am
Kleo said:

Satire is just not to everyone's taste

Maybe that's it. I don't know at this point.

hats
April 25, 2006 - 08:06 am
Scootz or Kleo,

Could you give me an easy definition for "satire." It's making fun, right??? Did we say why "Don Quixote" is a satire? I can't remember. I need to go over earlier posts.

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 25, 2006 - 08:12 am
Oh! no my version is far from boring. The story is far fetched and not very believable for adults such as we are, as all the main characters are acting out of character while the lesser ones act normally.

DQ reflects Cervantes's life which was quite adventurous and he just exaggerated this in the book to make it more fantastic. If it has been so popular, is it because it has everything, superb writing, romance, chivalry, bravery in battle, high goals, and a UNIFORM with weapons, making men so attractive to romantic young people.

The description of how DQ fashioned his helmet is what a child would do to play at being a knight and going out to defend the poor, the widow and the orphan and Cervantes added to that the Dulcinea of Toboso for young girls to dream of being rescued by a knight in shining armor.

My French version tells this to me. It is the pulp fiction of the 16th century with all the flowery language of the time while avoiding explicit the sex we read in novels today because then it was certainly not fitting.

I used to love reading romantic novels when I was young, I still do, but now I like other genre too which gives me less time.

I wish I could post some of the more lovely lines, but it might bore you so I avoid doing it.

Éloïse

hats
April 25, 2006 - 08:16 am
Eloise,

Please post some lines. I won't find it boring. I'm sure others wouldn't find it boring either.

marni0308
April 25, 2006 - 08:38 am
Hats: I'm really enjoying this book, also.

The Introduction of my copy begins with something I enjoyed. It shows how this book affected an earlier generation of Spanish readers:

"In the first few pages of Don Quixote, Cervantes had his contemporaries laughing. King Philip III remarked of a student he spotted from his balcony bursting into fits of laughter while reading a book, 'That student has either lost his wits or he is reading Don Quixote.' A courtier who went to investigate found that the young man was indeed reading Don Quixote. Even if apocryphal, the remark conveys the contagious hilarity with which Don Quixote infected seventeenth-century Spanish readers...."

hats
April 25, 2006 - 08:42 am
Marni, I agree. the hilarity is contagious. I think the book shows Cervantes vast talent. He had the ability to make the reader laugh heartily. Also, he had the talent to make the reader feel sympathy for all of the Don's foolhardy mistakes. Cervantes knew how to play with our emotions. Making the blood pressure rise and fall is what makes a novel successful, I think.

I really laugh about the Don's helmet, part of it, the sallet, I think, is made of cardboard. Then, as it falls apart, he tries desperately to repair it. What a laugh!

hats
April 25, 2006 - 08:51 am
I don't know whether it's sad or funny. I did laugh. The Don feels that he can gain a kingdom for Sancho within six days. Unbelievable.

"If you live and I live, it well might be that before six days have passed I shall win a kingdom that has others allied to it,...."

I am undecided what to feel about Sancho. Either Sancho is loyal to a fault or he is naive. I just don't know.

Deems
April 25, 2006 - 08:57 am
Hats--If I forget, put a message in here to remind me. I think Sancho was eager to get away from his wife and children. I'll quote the appropriate passage for you when I get home. Unfortunately, like my reading glasses, the book I need is not where I am!

But it's not just to get an "insula," though that is certainly part of his reasoning.

Maryal

hats
April 25, 2006 - 08:58 am
Maryal,

I will remind you. Get well soon.

marni0308
April 25, 2006 - 09:04 am
4. Why did Quixote select Sancho Panza as his squire? What unusual promise did he make to Sancho in order to persuade him to leave wife and family and join his quest? Does Sancho believe in Quixote's knightly vision?

My edition only says the the Don appealed to a peasant in the neighborhood, "a very honest fellow....one who had something missing upstairs." The Don promised SP "mountains of wealth" and used "many arguments to persuade." I got the feeling the the adventure as well as the rewards pursuaded SP to join up. Perhaps he was tired of his life and responsibilities as a family man. 17th century male menopause?? He left his family without saying goodby. Maybe his wife was a shrew and he didn't want to face a fight, or maybe he thought his family might persuade him to stay home?? He did think he might eventually rule over a territory.

The Don left without saying goodby, also.

The dichotomy of this duo certainly presented a comic picture as they sallied forth - the tall, thin dotty old Don with his semi-patched visor and borrowed wooden shield on his old horse accompanied by the short, rotund, honest, dumb squire on his donkey, both seeking adventure, leaving their old lives behind.

(Even the Don wondered about the donkey - "endeavoring to recollect some knight-errant who had entertained a squire mounted on a donkey but, as no such instance occurred to his memory, he was nevertheless, determined to allow it on this occasion....")

hats
April 25, 2006 - 09:07 am
Marni, now I'm laughing again.

Phyll
April 25, 2006 - 09:20 am
a book that may or may not appeal to us. It doesn't make us lacking in any way---it just lends that nice variety that makes these discussions rich and interesting.

So far I am enjoying Don Q. very much, though I'll admit to skimming over the many titles of the unfamiliar books that were deemed only worthy of burning. But while many of you thought Middlemarch was wonderful it bored the bejeebers out of me and I dropped out fairly early.

Pat H
April 25, 2006 - 09:26 am
Eloise, if you post some passages, anybody who finds them boring can just skip them, and anyone who wants to can read them.

Pat H
April 25, 2006 - 10:10 am
The word "panza" means "belly" in Spanish, which reminds us that Sancho Panza is going to represent the practical, down-to-earth, look after your own skin aspect of the partnership. I'm only through Chapter VII, but I suspect that, in spite of being described as not having much in his head, he will turn out to have a lot of common sense, even if he is naive about don Q's promises.

Éloïse De Pelteau
April 25, 2006 - 10:45 am
Alors voici le passage:

"Apprends, Sancho Panza, qu'autrefois tous les chevaliers errants nommaient leurs écuyers gouverneurs des archipels ou des royaumes qu'ils avaient gagnés dans leurs aventures; et j'entends bien respecter une si louable coutume. Je pense même faire mieux que mes prédécesseurs: le plus souvent, en effet, ils attendaient que leurs écuyers fussent vieux, las de servir et de passer des jours pénibles et des nuits encore plus mauvaises, pour leur donner enfin un titre de comte ou de marquis. Mais si toi et moi sommes en vie, il se pourrait qu'avant six jours j'aie conquis un empire composé de plusieurs royaumes; ce qui tomberait à pic, car je t'en donnerais un, dont tu serais couronné roi."

It mainly says that Don Q expects within 6 days to win several empires and kingdoms and he would give Sancho one of them to govern and he would be crowned King. It is so hilarious, and I can just picture an middle aged man dressed as a poor knight telling his old squire mounted on a donkey that they will conquer lands and titles.

kiwi lady
April 25, 2006 - 12:16 pm
I keep saying this - imagine a well made film of this book. I can just see Don Q and Sancho setting off which would make me laugh before they even began their adventures! I think if you have a really good imagination this book is really funny.

Carolyn

marni0308
April 25, 2006 - 12:19 pm
Re: "The word "panza" means "belly" in Spanish."

I love seeing this. His name goes with his appearance, as depicted by the artists. SP has a huge belly. I love the way Cervantes describes SP (in my edition): "...he was resolved to carry along with him an excellent donkey which he had, as he was not designed by nature to travel far on foot."

hats
April 25, 2006 - 12:35 pm
I can see the Don searching for his library. Cervantes' description is very funny, I think.

"....since he could not find the library where he had left it, he walked back and forth looking for it. He went up to the place where the door had been, and he felt it with his hands, and his eyes looked all around...." Oh, what a picture. The household "marvels at his madness."

Not to mention the Don's idea that the windmills are giants."Thirty or more enormous giants with whom I intend to do battle and whose lives I intend to take..." Now that is hilarious.

hats
April 25, 2006 - 12:50 pm
Again, I agree with PatH. I think Sancho in many instances will save or help the Don in some way. Sancho's explanation about the windmills is very clear.

"....Sancho responded, those things that appear over there aren't giants but windmills, and what looks like their arms are the sails that are turned by the wind and make the grindstone move."

Deems
April 25, 2006 - 02:59 pm
and, believe it or not, still awake. I took the day off yesterday--fever, dizziness, etc--and slept all day. I slept all morning. I woke up around noon, ate something (that I cannot remember, but stomach said Feed Me), went back to bed, slept until 5:00, got a coke, went back to bed, slept until 7:00, stayed awake until 10:30 and then slept all night. And this from a person who never even takes naps under normal circumstances.

Anyway, I found the passage. I don't know which translation you have. I have Grossman. In my book, on the page facing the one that has Don Q wondering if it's OK to let Sancho Panza bring a donkey, the knight and his new squire are riding along. Sancho reminds Don Q that he has been promised an insula and Don Q assures him that, if they both live, he will certainly keep his promise.

Then Sancho says, "If that happens. . .and I became king through one of those miracles your grace has mentioned, then Juana Gutierrez, my missus, would be queen, and my children would be princes."

"Well, who can doubt it?" Don Quixote responded.

"I doubt it," Sancho Panza replied, "because in my opinion, even if God rained kingdoms down on earth, none of them would sit well on the head of Mari Gutierrez. You should know, Senor, that she isn't worth two mavavedis as a queen; she'd do better as a countess, and even then she'd need God's help."

Both of the women's names above refer to Sancho Panza's wife. I have a footnote indicating that Sancho's wife has several other names, "presumably through an oversight on the part of Cervantes."

I should have said that this passage is at the end of Chapter 7, but my head is still muddled.

Maryal

kiwi lady
April 25, 2006 - 04:25 pm
Maryal Hope you feel better soon. If the dizziness and fever persists get your sinuses checked I always get dizzy from a sinus infection which in turn affects my ears - thus the dizziness.

Carolyn

ALF
April 25, 2006 - 04:56 pm
Perhaps it is slap stick but I found DQ’s awakenening to discover the room was gone hilarious. I can just see him ”twisting and turning his eyes in every direction” hoping to locate a lost room. I’ve long said I could seal myself in a room with books; perhaps I should have been around for the treat. The niece proceeds to explain the vanishing act with a fairy tale about a magician whom he immediately names.

Ok, what is a buckler that DQ had to procure before leaving with Sancho “Belly?” Love that Sancho feels he will be big enough to govern the large island, a big kingdom that DQ has promised him. Well, just imagine the Don may even bestow more riches on his squire if the chance presents itself . I found this chapter amusing, not slap stick He allowed himself a good “ass” (is that a buckler) that he would immediately give up for a more honorable mount, “by appropriating the horse from the first discourteous knight he met.”
hahah maybe he could make a trade- well we will leave that to God, too.

hegeso
April 25, 2006 - 06:19 pm
I am way behind with the book and the posts. The family health problems are really horrible, and now, I got the flu in spite of the flu shot I got in time.

We had many lovely illustrations to the Don and his squire. May I now suggest also some music? I would recommend the "Don Quixote" by Richard Strauss.

For me, the book is a tragicomedy. It is also cruel, but without the cruelty the message wouldn't be what it is. I love the book and love the Don, the poor idealist. Sometimes I laugh, but with real tears in my eyes.

It is not my first reading of the book, but as Herakleitos said, we cannot step twice into the same river, and I say that we never read the same book twice. I see many things that I haven't noticed before.

And humor is often, not just in the case of Cervantes, something bitter, and also wise.

I will try to make up for lost time.

Excuse my private note to Traude: I got email from you and also answered it.

gumtree
April 25, 2006 - 07:27 pm
hi - Couldn't find the hookah den - just a public library just to read through the posts - it's wonderful stuff to read and lots to think about under the giant gumtrees - karris - was in an area yesterday ravaged by bushfire -sad sad sad - but it will recover

Just for the record someone mentioned Shakespeare's death/birth days being the same and whether anyone knew of others - well he wasn't famous like Shakespeare but my brother died on his 63rd birthday - it's sad for us as we remember both occasions at the same time

will tune in again in a day or two to try to keep up with the posts

Traude S
April 25, 2006 - 08:01 pm
MARYAL, sleep - or bed rest - is often the best medicine. The body signals what it needs. Get better soon!

HEGESO has brought up the word that has not been mentioned before, but one I recall as deep impression from my first reaading - the Don is an idealist, who wants to right the wrongs of the world, and haven't other men (and women) with similar compassionate goals been considered odd, even mad ?

JOAN P, the Grossman translation is excellent and I have stopped comparing every word with Putnam's version. It simply takes too much time and is ultimately unproductive. In questions of uncertainty, of course, the Spanish text is the definitive source.

Re setanta (70) vs. sesanta (60), Grossman's footnote says
Martín de Riquer, the editor of the Spanish text, speculates that the error in arithmetic may be an intentional, ironic allusion to Cervantes's three imprisonments for faulty accounts.
Today's Boston Globe had a most interesting article about a book group in Boston that has been reading Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake" since 1996. "They'll probably finish it in 2021." says the paper. (emphasis mine)

I believe it is important for us to wade undaunted into this dense book, to get immersed, before we can begin to know what this complex work is truly about. I concur with HEGESO in that the book is a Tragicomedy, a blending of comedy and tragedy. This second reading of this book after many decades is a new experience for me in a different language.

Harold Bloom asks in his Introduction to Grossman's translation:
"What is the true object of Don Quixote's quest? I find that unanswerable. What are Hamlet's authentic motives? We are not permitted to know. Since Cervantes's magnificent Knight's quest has cosmological scope and reverberation, no object seems beyond reach. ..."
I'll try to answer the questions in the header tomorrow. But I believe that the Don and Sancho Panza complement each other perfectly.

Questions about the Catholic Church and the Inquisition, especially the Spanish Inquisition, will continue to come up.

May I share with you that in the NYT magazine of April 16 I came upon a fascinating interview by Fernanda Eberstadt of the Spanish novelist Juan Goytisolo, "The Anti-Orientalist". Goytisolo, 75, practically unknown in this country, lives in self-imposed exile in Marrakesh, like Paul Bowles ("The Sheltering Sky"). In his fiction and essays, Goytisolo has for years criticized Spanish Nationalists for denying the Muslim-Jewish culture that flourished in Spain before the Reconquista.
Eberstadt quotes him as saying
"There are 4,000 words of Arabic origin in Spanish." and, more important and to the point here,
"You can't understand Cervantes or Fernando de Rojas", the presumed author of the 15th cntury comedy 'La Celestina', "without knowing they were both converted Jews, on the periphery of Spanish life. (emphasis mine)
This might well be a most important clue to understanding Cervantes and DQ better.

Allow me to conclude with a private note for HEGESO,
Dear friend, I'm relieved at least one e-mail has reached you after so many were returned to me by the MAILER DAEMON. Your e-mail received, an answer sent. Thank you.

Joan Pearson
April 26, 2006 - 07:04 am
What fine, sparkling, posts to savor with morning coffee! Everyone seems ready to set out on this excellent adventure with the gentle reassurance from fellow travelers. Yes, yes, please, skim the details as Phyll does - if you feel mired - treat them as mud and avoid them. There's too much of interest here. Enjoy the journey. If you don't like satire (a good definition, please PROF???), there's always the slapstick, puns and gratuituous remarks we can all enjoy. And if Cervantes isn't making you smile, don't worry. There's more here than the comedy. Maybe even a "tragicomedy" as Hegeso writes. No, please, don't pack off and ride off into the sunset just yet - it's only sunrise.

And please, don't nobody get overwhelmed!!! Take your time. Hegeso, Maryal, Gum - (no hookah dens? You don't know what you are missing! Sorry about your brother, 63 is so young!)- we miss you all of course, but when you are able, come back slooooowly at first. We care about you and don't want to leave you sitting on the side of the road. A chapter a morning sounds just fine, Pat, Scootz.

Pat H
April 26, 2006 - 07:06 am
Alf, a buckler is a shield. I don't know what happened to his other one; maybe the muledriver who beat him up in chapter 4 smashed it along with his lance.

Phyll
April 26, 2006 - 07:08 am
Hegeso mentioned having music to accompany us. I was fortunate, when I lived north of NYC, to see "The Man of La Mancha" on Broadway. I fell in love with the play and with the story even though I had never before now read the book. And, of course, since the play was a musical with a wonderful score, that is what I hear in my head whenever I read or think of Don Q. "To Dream the Impossible Dream" is always playing in the background of my mind as I read.

I wonder if the interpretation of the play has colored the way I am interpreting the book because I don't see the book as "slapstick" at all but the story of a man who, although his world saw him as crazy, had a dream and through all odds set out to pursue it. To add to one of those "old sayings" that Cervantes liked to include in his story, "There is a fine line between insanity and genius."

Joan Pearson
April 26, 2006 - 07:09 am
- Isn't it amazing how many things can serve as a shield when you let your imagination run free, Pat? A couch cushion for example?

Phyll, I'm hearing the "Impossible Dream" too. In these two chapters, VII and VIII, my attention is tuned in on Sancho. Does he hear the music too?

Everyone must be talking about the discovery of the "New World" - and the people in the newly found lands must need governing, governors. I don't think it's too unrealistic for Sancho to want to go off with Don Q. with the promise of an "insula" of his own to govern. And he'll only be gone a week! And a week of adventure away from the wife is too tempting to pass up.

Was it you, Hats who observed yesterday that Cervantes' own life was quite adventurous - that he just exaggerated his experiences in the book. I seem to remember that Cervantes applied for a position in one of the new territories. Maybe he's laughing at himself for believing that he had a good chance to get the job.

This won't be the first time that Cervantes draws from his background - Traudee, thank you for the comment on the Spanish Nationalists denying the Muslim-Jewish culture in Spain - wasn't it his mother who was the Jewish convert to Catholicism? Will look that up.

Eloise, I'm thinking of what you said about the story not being believable to adults "as all the main characters are acting out of character while the lesser ones act normally." " So. Let's watch Sancho very carefully today - his reaction to his master mistaking the windmills for giants? Is he disillusioned with Don after this? Has he given up all hopes of that "insula? After all, as Hats reminds us, Sancho is a poor man. So he can not afford to "play" - and no, I don't think this early in the game that Sancho is "loyal to a fault," Hats He doesn't know Don well enough - and he hasn't read the books on fealty to one's lordship.

Pat H, Panza, ("belly" = "practical, down to earth")- if he has common sense, can he go any further with Don Q after witnessing the windmill debacle? (Carolyn this would be THE scene in that movie you are producing! Marni is the casting director - give him that big belly, oh and give the big man the good-sized ass as Andy describes...hahaha)

How can Sancho "help" Don at this point? Can he talk him out of his madness? Or will Don succeed in making Sancho mad?

Goodness, where has the time gone. Must run...but for two quick comments -
1. The Dore illustration of the windmill defeat is clickable to enlarge - enjoy!

2. The Spanish Punctuation guide is in the heading now - in case you want to practice writing Señor Quixote.

marni0308
April 26, 2006 - 09:50 am
JoanP: I love the Dore illustration you provided!! The one in my book takes place just prior. Unfortunately, I can't find it online with such clarity as yours. Here it is, though:

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Don-Quixote-and-the-Windmill-Posters_i136029_.htm

Deems
April 26, 2006 - 11:49 am
The fever is gone; the cough remains, but I can almost breathe through my nose and I feel ever so much better.

I just finished writing the final examination for my Bible As Lit course. Anyone want to take it?

KIDDING. Joke. KIDDING.

OK, JoanP, here you go. Satire is a comic criticism (often sharp) of people, manners, customs, institutions. We used to teach that the purpose of satire was the reform of that which was satirized, but I don't think that's said so much any more.

I think the Quixote tends to be more broadly genuinely comic (I always think of satire as having an innate mean streak) and I would call the original aim (to poke fun at all those ridiculous romantic novels of chivalry so abundant in Cervantes' day) Parody, a much gentler term indicating a kind of poking fun at (while having a good time doing it).

Here's the etymology for the noun, satire, from the OED:

"[a. F. satire (= Sp. sátira, Pg., It. satira, G. satire), or directly ad. L. satira, later form of satura, in early use a discursive composition in verse treating of a variety of subjects, in classical use a poem in which prevalent follies or vices are assailed with ridicule or with serious denunciation. The word is a specific application of satura medley; this general sense appears in the phrase per saturam in the lump, indiscriminately; according to the grammarians this is elliptical for lanx satura (lit. ‘full dish’: lanx dish, satura, fem. of satur full, related to satis enough), which is alleged to have been used for a dish containing various kinds of fruit, and for food composed of many different ingredients."

Note the "riducule" and "serious denunciation." Satire is frequently NOT funny.

But all these terms are flexible. Parody contains satiric elements, for example. I stay away from terms whenever possible because they never get me any closer to the work itself.

Traude--I'm so glad you are enjoying Grossman. I too think it is wonderful, so light, so lively, so engaging. I have no idea how accurate it is, but I have read that Cervantes Spanish had all these qualities. I think Grossman has attempted, at the very least, to give us the voice of the novel.

I just read an article about Cervantes using real animals in some of his plays. Yes, real chickens and dogs and even horses. In said article, another scholar is quoted as saying that Cervantes was tolerant of everything except intolerance. I think that's an important characterization.

~Maryal

CathieS
April 26, 2006 - 11:55 am
1. What was your reaction to the well-known battle of the windmills? Were you surprised to come upon it this early in the tale?

This was the only thing about Don Quixote that I knew, so I was interested to finally actually read it. I was surprised that it occured so early on, yes.

2. What is Sancho's reaction to Don Quixote's desire to attack the windmills in the fields of Montiel? What was his reason for attacking these windmill/giants?

Sancho immediately tries to disabuse Don of his notion that the windmills are monsters- to no avail. He attacks the windmills in order to do service to God to remove "such an evil breed".

3. Does the Squire still believe in his knight's mental stability after the windmill episode? How do you view the role of Sancho Panza in the story so far?

Sancho Panza appears to me to be a foil for Don quixote. he is also a straightman. He appears undeterred by the episode as to his support of the Don.

CathieS
April 26, 2006 - 12:35 pm
Apparently, there really is such a thing.

The Rules of Chivalry

Thou shalt believe all the church teaches and observe all its directions

Thou shalt defend the church

Thou shalt respect all weaknesses and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them

Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born

Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy

Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation and without mercy

Thou shalt perform scrupulosuly the fuedal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God

Thou shalt never lie and remain faithful to thy pledged word

Thou shalt be generous and give largesse (?) to everyone

Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and Good and the foe of Injustice and Evil

Phyll
April 26, 2006 - 01:10 pm
Thank you for that clarification between satire and parody. I had a difficult time thinking of Don Q. as satire because as your definition indicates satire always seems to me to be cutting and mean. I'm just not seeing that in Cervantes' writing. Parody! That is a better fit! He is making fun of the books of chivalry that consume the readers of his time and has set out to write a comic parody, perhaps with tongue in cheek?

Glad you're feeling better. And I would LOVE to take your course on the Bible as Literature but I seriously doubt I could pass the physical exam so I could sign up for your class. Do you make house calls?

CathieS
April 26, 2006 - 01:50 pm
I was also interested in the satire/parody clarification. I stated early on that I considered DQ to be parody. Kleo told me maybe I don't like satire. But, I must, having just realized today that the Trollope I'm reading is satire and I'm lovin' it. So, it's not that.

ALF
April 26, 2006 - 05:53 pm
Oh Maryal, I am happy that you are back in the swing of things. You know, Missy, Chicken Soup it is, for you. Sure, we are up to the task of taking your quiz, bring “er on, Prof.” I agree with Cervantes 1000 % - I, too hate intolerance. Or--- is it incompetence I hate? Hmm, let me think on that one.
Marni- Thanks for the Dore URL. Like Phyl and Joan P. The Impossible Dream has infringed on my quiet thoughts many times since we first agreed to read Don Q.

Thank you PatH. I had no idea that the buckler was a shield. Good grief, I’m sure the Don will need that in his travels.

JoanK
April 26, 2006 - 07:23 pm
Hello, all. I've been sidelined with one of those chest colds that goes into coughing and goes on and on and on. DEEMS I hope yous isn't like that. The only thing that seems to help it is drinking very hot water often.

","everyone is the child of his deeds". It's not a bad motto." It's also a very Protestant (or perhaps Jewish?) motto. If I remember rightly, salvation by works, rather than by faith, was one of the Protestant rallying cries. Is Cervantes taking as many chances with the inquisition as he seems to be? If so, he's getting away with it.

kiwi lady
April 26, 2006 - 07:51 pm
Joan our pharmacist makes up his own brew called chesty cough mixture. I use saline nasal drops and take the pharmacists brew and it clears up chest congestion and also the nasal drops stop that nasal drip that itches the throat, I stock up on Betadine idodine throat gargle. the chesty cough mxture. the nasal drops and keep a good supply of Tylanol. As well as that I buy fresh ginger root and make ginger tea. Our pharmacists brew beats all the patent cough mixtures hands down.

Carolyn

marni0308
April 26, 2006 - 08:26 pm
I hope you all get over your colds easily. Colds are such nasty things. They hang on and on.

To hear a bit of "The Impossible Dream" and other songs from "Man of La Mancha" click on this link and scroll down to the song list. Choose the media player of your choice:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002PBK/102-9007052-9660942?v=glance&n=5174

ALF
April 27, 2006 - 06:40 am
Deems and JoanK- not to worry ladies. The Knight(ess) Andrea is available. The windmill being conquered, the windbag shall move forward with DonQ and the loyal Sancho. Who knows, we've accosted a couple of Friars already, perhaps we can find a poor innocent peasant to attack along the way. :-]

Joan Pearson
April 27, 2006 - 06:59 am
Good morning, Dreamers (better than Don-Kies?) -

Such good stuff here this morning! I'm listening to "Impossible Dream" as I type, thank you, Marni - thinking of how this song has always conjured up images of the lone knight doing battle with those windmills. But having read the account of the battle with the windmills in Chapter VIII, I'm left...baffled. Is this it? Will there be more windmill battles in the future? Somehow, I think not. I can't help but feel I've missed something.

Why have the windmills captured the imagination in literature, song, in art down through the ages? Is there a deeper meaning to this battle with the giants that I'm missing? (Do you have footnotes?)

Does it mean anything that the specific number of giants were given - twenty - thirty of them, described by El Quixote as an "evil breed now wiped off the face of the earth."

Maryal, all we ever need to know about satire/parody! Thank you. Do you see parody here? Do the giants represent the "infidel" - does Cervantes put down the Christian/Muslim conflict - in which he lost badly, lost the use of his sword hand?

Scootz - there really were RULES - where on earth did you find them? Which rule of knighthood was DQ following in his attack on the windmill giants? Clearly one of them must have been - " Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy." But there are several other possibilities.

Right now, I'm looking at the windmills as an example of DQ's delusions, his determination to put down evil where he sees it. JoanK, (glad you are feeling better - we seem to need some of Carolyn's pharmacist's magic elixir here) - if we are to know who a man is by his deeds, I guess you'd say that Don Q is indeed a fearless knight! I hadn't thought of this as a Protestant or Jewish maxim, but will consider it.

Is that why Sancho accepts him - because of his bravery and determination? If he is the straightman - the one who sees things as they really are, why is he not questioning his master's sanity, giving up on hope of an island, and heading home now? Look how easily DQ explains away the windmills! Sancho accepts his words , and just like that, the windmills are history and the pair are off to the next adventure with the Benedictines, and the "princess."

With each "adventure" I'm trying to get to know the Don a little better. But I'm finding Sancho a much more interesting character to follow. Don is predictable. How about you?

ps Good morning, " Windy" - you brighten the day! Don't shut up. We love your outlandish asides!

Phyll
April 27, 2006 - 07:14 am
Thanks for that link. I have that very recording that I bought when it was first released all those years ago. You prompted me to pull it out and even though it is scratchy I'm listening to it again right now. (My husband had to remind me how to start the phono again....hadn't done that in years!) It's wonderful and brings back great memories. That was a wonderful play with a great cast and with great staging. All done on a tilted, circular stage. Very innovative at the time!

hats
April 27, 2006 - 07:21 am
Marni,

I also would like to say thank you for the link. We sang "Impossible Dream" and "Born Free" at our high school graduation. I can't remember the third song.

CathieS
April 27, 2006 - 07:31 am
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and Good and the foe of Injustice and Evil

I think this above rule of chivalry applies ,too Joan.

After the windmill incident DQ lectures SP as to the rules of chivalry- exactly against whom he can defend DQ and against whom he cannot. I just wondered if such rules existed. Googled it! There are also rules of courtly love or somesuch which seemed to come about later.(?)

This link is a bit more extensive and very interesting/appropriate here.

http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html

Deems
April 27, 2006 - 03:08 pm
Scootz--That is a good list of the code of chivalry as well as the principles of courtly love which also enter into our story. The courtly lover, like Don Quixote, admires his lady from afar, trembles when she is near, loses his appetite, is sleepless (see the end of the chapter with the windmills), grows thin and pale, takes great comfort at any word or glance from his lady, and on and on.

I think Don Quixote's attack on the Benedictines is wonderfully funny and the supreme battle between Quixote and the Basque even funnier. That pillow keeps coming into the descriptions! You have to imagine anyone defending himself from the sword of a real knight with a PILLOW. And then the captive "princesses" in the carriage implore Don Quixote to spare the life of their "squire." It's just astonishing how everyone catches on to the game. This fellow thinks he's a knight. OK, let's do just as he says. So they promise that their Basque will go to present himself before Dona Dulcinea without even asking where she lives. Obviously they do not intend to carry out their promise. Where, in the vast expanse of Spain, does Dulcinea live?

Don't miss the commentary on Sancho Panza in Chap 8, after the windmill episode where he is described as frequently "tilting back the wineskin." This is just wonderful:

And as he rode along in that manner, taking frequent drinks, he did not think about any promises his master had made to him, and he did not consider it work but sheer pleasure to go around seeking adventures, no matter how dangerous they might be.

Doesn't sound like a man who yearns to return to his wife, be she Juana or Mari or some other name, to me!

~Maryal

hegeso
April 27, 2006 - 06:26 pm
Is Sancho Pansa down-to-earth? Is he realistic? I have no answer, only fleeting thoughts. It is easy to be down-to-earth and realistic for somebody who has no imagination. And why does he buy into the mad illusions of the Don? So many simple-minded persons become influenced by a strong personality. Unfortunately, we saw so much of that in history and politics. And promises, even if totally unrealistic, also do their part.

I cannot analyse the characters; Cervantes's book is not a psychological novel. Psychology could see deeper, but the novel sees farther, has a greater perspective, and is more universal.

1amparo
April 27, 2006 - 08:25 pm
…to present himself before Dona Dulcinea without even asking where she lives. Obviously they do not intend to carry out their promise. Where, in the vast expanse of Spain, does Dulcinea live?

Maryal, had (hypothetically) there been a “true” Dulcinea living in El Toboso, the area of our friends travels, anyone and everybody would had known where her home was.

This happened to me 4 years ago. I went to my grandfather’s place of birth, close to El Toboso, to get copy of his birth certificate. I dismissed the taxi that took me there thinking that I could (a) get public transport, coach or (b) get another taxi. At the local Townhall after they gave me the document, I was told I had to wait till next day to get the once a day coach. I asked for a hotel only to be told there were none, no fondas, nor inn. But I was told not to worry; I had relations in the town!! Sure enough the officer took me to a typical Quixote times (modernized) house where an aunt lived. I learnt her brother was a quite well known Bishop I did not have a clue we were related. Then, of course, within few minutes people began to arrive… all relations having heard of my arrival! Needless to say it I had to stay in the village for a week!

Amparo

kiwi lady
April 27, 2006 - 09:31 pm
Amparo the same thing happened to my BIL when he went to take a look at his ancestors village in Yugoslavia. The hospitality was embarressing. His grandfather was the last one in the family to live in the village but BIL and wife were treated like the prodigal sons! They enjoyed Yugloslavia that was in in the mid seventies. It was not at all as they imagined it. They expected sullen and austere people due to their circumstances but it was not at all like that.

hats
April 28, 2006 - 06:20 am
Scootz,

Thank you for finding the special links.

Deems,

Thank you for the definitions of satire and parody.

Joan Pearson
April 28, 2006 - 06:31 am
Good morning, Dreamers!

Oh yes, Maryal very funny that Don Q. is sending all these witnesses to Toboso to lay accounts of his bravery at "Dulcinea's" feet as proof of his love for her...for two reasons - they won't go out of their way - and even if they did, there is no one named Dulcinea in the town! Quixote has made up the name for the peasant girl, Aldonza Lorenzo. Does she even recognize his name, I wonder. We'll learn that whenever they do meet, I guess.

Amparo, a delightful story! I am seeing Toboso on the map of his route (found in the header), but none of the other place names yet. I see there is a Cervantes Museum in or near Toboso. Will you take a look at that map of his route (the link is in the header) and see if you can locate him now?

Carolyn - I enjoyed the Yugoslavian story - reminded me of our trip to Ireland last year - I wanted stop in Tipperary, where my great grandparents came from. Husband said it was farm country, nothing to see really, but that we could stop if I found one living relative there. I didn't have the time to get into the research and so we didn't bet off the train but went straight on to Cork. Later I was told that anyone with the family name of Maher (Meagher) who came to town would have been welcomed "home" like long lost relatives.

Scootz - thanks for the link to the Code of Chivalry and Courtly love, am putting it in the heading... You know, I don't see anything in the code to indicate that poor Sancho must do battle with all the "lowborn" because Don is forbidden by the code. If not fighting Injustice, why make Sancho fight at all? What is Cervantes saying about the distortion of the rules of chivalry then?

Maryal - the image of Sancho riding off down the rode with his master, "tilting back the wine skin, thinking only of the pleasure of the adventure" is a sure indication that he is willing, more than willing to put aside any questions he might have about El Quixote's sanity. He has bought the explanation that the evil magician has turned the giants into windmills and marvels at his master's bravery and daring. He's not even thinking about that island any more!

Hegeso - do you suppose Cervantes is using Sancho to represent the simple minded people who have become influenced by the strong personalities or institutions, king, Church - with promises, even totally unrealistic promises?

I tried to find out the symbolism of fighting the 20-30 windmills. Never found an answer (didn't really expect to), but read many articles that described Cervantes anger (he doesn't seem angry to me) at the Church and state injustices - and that this was his way of showing his resistance, while avoiding prosecution. I'm told that comedy is a good place to hide one's anger.

Maryal, DQ's attack on the Benedictines was funny. Apparently Cervantes has it in for the clergy (from what I've read) and does not show the respect that we might expect. I can't figure out what he is saying about the Basque. I have a footnote that compares him to the natives in the newly conquered lands. Why is his Spanish so fractured? Can you tell us something about the Basque area in Spain, Amparo?

This is a bloody battle with the Basque - a strange place to end the chapter, no?

Joan Pearson
April 28, 2006 - 06:44 am
Good morning, Hats!

We're the first to turn to Part II! What a surprise! We have been interrupted...the "document" we were reading in Part I has been either stolen, or confiscated - and turns up in the hands of an Arab historian who brings us the resolution of the ferocious battle with the Basque - and his master's mangled ear.

How is this historian's name spelled in the translation you are reading.

I cannot wait to hear your reaction to this abrupt change. Why did Cervantes interrupt the battle in this way? Maybe we will never know.

hats
April 28, 2006 - 06:48 am
Hi JoanP,

The interruption definitely caught my attention. What a cliffhanger! I felt a bit out of sorts.

Joan Pearson
April 28, 2006 - 06:53 am
Oh Hats, I did too. Where did Cervantes go? I was just starting to understand him and his relationship to Quixote!

I will admit to a certain feeling of accomplishment, finishing Part I though!

Deems
April 28, 2006 - 07:46 am
Amparo, Thank you for explaining what a small village El Toboso is. I know there is no such person as Dulcinea (she who is modeled on a peasant girl just as Don Q. creates Giants out of windmills), but I knew nothing of El Toboso itself. You are invaluable. Do not go away please.

Hats--Yes, exactly! A cliffhanger indeed. The narrator stops the Great Battle between Quixote and the Basque in mid-charge. I have a footnote that says that the change in narrators was a staple of chivalric romances.

Joan P--Don't forget that there were many church men around at the time. It would be unlikely to do much traveling without running into some of them. I don't see a particularly strong attack on the church, just Quixote's ability to transform anything he sees into what he needs it to be for the purpose of his knightly vision.

But I agree with you about comedy. A writer can get away with serious thoughts if they are presented under the guise of comedy. When people will no longer listen to sober discourse, they will get involved in comedy and maybe, unwittingly, be introduced to a new (or subversive) idea or two.

~Maryal

Mippy
April 28, 2006 - 08:59 am
Amparo ~ Hi, amica mea! What a super experience you tell about, looking for relatives and finding them!
You are very fortunate to find roots like that! Not all of us are able to do so.

JoanP ~
You asked for a reaction to this abrupt change?
Love it ... it made me slow down, and think about Cervantes ...
The odd gap, IMO, ties in with the impossible dream and the quest for glory.
The abrupt stop makes the novel more dreamlike and ethereal ...
catches us up as we try to understand who DQ is ... reminds us to float free of earthly responsibilities ... perhaps even think about our own quest ...

I love this book, and I did not expect to find it so engaging.

hats
April 28, 2006 - 11:22 am
When reading about Don Q, I keep thinking he is a man lost in a different era, a man who refuses to accept the fact that his station in life is not the same. His inability to accept truth or reality makes him seem silly. At times, he appears tragic.

Thinking about him today, Faulkner's Miss Emily jumped into my mind. Miss Emily could not accept her change in society either. She wanted time to stand still. Is there any likeness between these two literary characters? I see an inability to face change in both instances. Even idealism, with all its do good ideas and romanticism can fail. Many explorers had idealistic dreams. Sometimes they came back home as failures because their idealistic ideas fell apart for one reason or other. I suppose it's a matter of knowing when to keep on dreaming "the impossible dream" and when to let the "impossible dream" drop by the wayside.

Phyll
April 28, 2006 - 12:16 pm
My parents had a "mom and pop" business and so I was left on my own when I wasn't in school and I always spent Saturday afternoons at the movies. Remember the old Sat. afternoon serials? The Lone Ranger? Tom Mix? etc.? This abrupt jump from Part I to Part II made me think of those old serials. We are left right in the middle of the fight--"at this critical moment the author of this history leaves the battle in mid air,....." Then the next chapter begins with a short description of "Don Quixote with naked sword on high just about to deal two blows...." Cervantes uses the same device the serials used when they would leave you hanging from the cliff one week and then come back to finish it off the next week.

But the sudden change in narrators had me confused! Took a while to understand what was happening and I'm not sure why Cervantes would write it that way.

Deems
April 28, 2006 - 12:30 pm
Phyll--In her translation, Grossman has a footnote that says "The 'second author' is Cervantes (that is, the narrator), who claims, in the following chapter, to have arranged for the translation of another (fictional) author's book. This device was common in medieval novels of chivalry." You can find the reference to a "second author" in the last paragraph of Chap. VIII.

I take this footnote to mean that one of the devices of novels of chivalry was to have more than one author; thus Cervantes is simply following the form.

Throughout, of course, Cervantes is our narrator, despite all the stories he tells about translations and other authors.

~Maryal

P.S. I saw a lot of those Saturday afternoon serials too, especially The Lone Ranger. And, yes, they always had cliffhangers.

1amparo
April 28, 2006 - 05:24 pm
I see there is a Cervantes Museum in or near Toboso. Will you take a look at that map of his route (the link is in the header) and see if you can locate him now?.

Yes, Joan, “Museo Cervantino” is written in red together with “Casa de Dulcinea” in El Toboso, map T1 and zoom it. Or you can click on map T7 and “museo Cervantino shows just at edge of top of the map off centre to the right. Actually, the road from Toboso to Belmonte (two red stars) is “Conjunto Historico”

Here is another link which points and tells, narrates the place of each adventure, for those of you who can read Spanish.

http://www.accindes.org/ruta_don_quijote/mapmonti.htm

The Basque is a very complicated language, some say pure Celtic, I can neither read nor understand one word of it. Only people from north Spain can do so. I have been to the very same spot/rock where Roland (Song of Roland) expired his last. Very impressive place close to the Pyrenees, high up in the Basque mountains.



I remember those serial movies too!

Cheers.

Amparo

JoanK
April 28, 2006 - 07:09 pm
Yes, serial movies is a good way to think about DQs adventures, as he goes from the frying pan to the fire. Except we can always read ahead, and see how he got out of the cliffhanger.

When Pat and I were girls, we weren't given money to go to the movies every week. So we saw the hero get into trouble, but weren't there next week to see how he got out of it. I still feel my frustration.

Yesterday's New York Times crossword puzzle had a clue from Cervantes. A four-letter word that Cervantes called "The discoverer of all things." Any guesses (I haven't worked it yet, so don't know).

CathieS
April 28, 2006 - 07:30 pm
A four-letter word that Cervantes called "The discoverer of all things."

Time

1amparo
April 28, 2006 - 08:10 pm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Celtic languages are the languages descended from Proto-Celtic, or "Common Celtic", a branch of the greater Indo-European language family. During the 1st millennium BC, they were spoken across Europe, from the Bay of Biscay..."

Amparo

marni0308
April 28, 2006 - 09:20 pm
The "Basque" is called the "Biscayan" in my edition. Of course, it made me think of the Bay of Biscay. Is Basque simply another word for Biscayan? (Could the Bay of Biscay be the Basque Bay?)

1amparo
April 28, 2006 - 11:49 pm
Yes Marni they are all the one and only. The Spaniards call it: "Golfo de Vizcaya" or "Costa Vasca", and its people "Vizcainos"

Amparo..

hats
April 29, 2006 - 12:53 am
Amparo,

Thank you for talking about the Basque.

JoanK,

When you solve the puzzle, will you please tell us the answer? It's no way in the world I would guess the right answer.

Joan Pearson
April 29, 2006 - 06:02 am
What a positive remark from Mippy this morning - "engaging" is a great way to describe this work - though sometimes to the point of being overwhelming because there is so much under the surface. I'm sure glad I'm not alone on this journey.

"The road is better than the inn."Maryal, did Cervantes really say those words? How many times I've said what amounts to the same thing to Bruce when we travel. (We don't always agree on this.) Sancho must agree though, or he wouldn't still be on the road. So far, it hasn't been a pleasant trip for him.

So, Mippy, the change in narrator was a positive one for you...makes the story "more dreamlike". That's interesting. Hats found it disconcerting, the new voice put her out of sorts - Hats, I can see where Don Q's inability to accept truth or reality makes him appear tragic. When you think about it, the reality of this time was quite tragic. I think if anything, that Cervantes is playing down the horrors of life in Spain during the Inquisition - where every facet of one's everyday life was affected one way or another by fear of condemnation and punishment. (It's funny that you think of Faulkner's Miss Emily, who wanted time to stand still. Does it help you to know that Faulkner made it a practice to read Don Quixote ONCE A YEAR?)

Phyll, I was confused at the change in narrator too. I believe this change, unlike the cliffhanger device was more than just a literary device. Maryal, please correct me if I'm wrong - the Grossman footnote tells that it was common in tales of chivalry to have more than one author....so Cervantes was imitating the tales by creating a "second author" of his own making? This was his own device? Do you think this was "novel" to the novel?

Why make the new "author/historian" an Arab? The "narrator" voice seems to wash his hands of the "truthfulness of the account" by relating that it was "natural for people of that race, the historian's race, to be "liars". Later he says that the "dog of an author" withholds deserved praise of Don Quixote when it was due, because "they (Arabs?) are very hostile to us." Do you see Cervantes using the historian to tell the tale which might very well bring on the consternation of the Inquisitors - but that he can point to the fact that the taleteller is a hostile liar, not to be taken at his word? Does that make sense? Unlike the cliffhanging device used to engage the reader, I see another strategy in the change of narrator/author.

Amparo, I really want to read that new link in English - the map with the narration of each adventure. You are a real treasure trove here! I'm interested in these Basques! Celtic origin? This particular fellow's name is Don Sancho de Azpetia. Is Azpetia in the Basque area? I wonder what their role was during this period in history?

Marni - are you saying that in your translation the "Basque" is always referred to as the "Biscayan"? Please say again which translation you are reading? How about the rest of you - Basque or Biscayan.

JoanK, don't you just love it when you come across a crossword clue from something that you are reading? Scootz came up with a likely answer - although I don't remember reading of "the discoverer of all things yet" - TIME - It seems that Sancho and El Quixote were having a talk about time erasing memories. Time seems to be an underlying theme in this novel. Does it fit, Joan? What other letters do you have?

One last question - and then must pack for the week at Disney with all five grandchildren (aged 4 and under - "It's a small world after all...") Did you notice the mention of the "pomegranate"? "Each man would have been split from top to bottom like an opened pomegranate." Apparently the choice of this fruit is more than it appears - the pomegranate had a special connotation. Does anyone have any footnotes or commentary about this?

Have a lovely spring day, everyone!

hats
April 29, 2006 - 06:22 am
JoanP,

That is so fascinating! Thank you for sharing that information. Faulkner must have really enjoyed Don Quixote. I bet he gained some new insight everytime he reread Don Quixote. I wish we could read Faulkner's thoughts about Don Quixote. Knowing Faulkner's appreciation for Don Q makes me appreciate the book more than ever. I am really learning a lot from Amparo's posts too. I have always thought of the Basques as shepherds. I think of shepherds as very gentle people.

JoanP, your reminder about the Inquisition keeps me focused on how chaotic and terrifying life was for people during this time, a very sad time.

hats
April 29, 2006 - 06:28 am
I have a small question. When did the Age of Chivalry begin and when did this period decline? Did the Age of Civalry wane because of the Inquisition? I might have been told in a post and forgotten or missed the post.

I noticed the "pomegranate." I would love to know why the use of the "pomegranate." This is so much fun. JoanP, have fun with the grandchildren. I would love to go with you.

Phyll
April 29, 2006 - 07:24 am
The Starkie translation always refers to it as Biscayan, too, instead of Basque. It took me awhile to make the connection but when I did it made more sense.

Here is a link to an interesting article about some of the theories of possible origins of the Basque language. Apparently not much is known and it wasn't even a written language until the 16th Cent.

Euskara, the Basque Language

hats
April 29, 2006 - 07:30 am
Phyll,

Thanks for the link.

1amparo
April 29, 2006 - 07:58 am
Joan P:

“Don Sancho de Azpetia. Is Azpetia in the Basque area?”

Yes, it is in the province of Guipuzcoa en el país Vasco (Basque country). Vasco = Basque. Vizcaino = Biscayan. And Sancho de Azpetia is the character involved in chapter: “Aventura del Vizcaino”.

Hats.

“I have always thought of the Basques as shepherds. I think of shepherds as very gentle people.”

Well. Hats, not quite so anymore. País Vasco is now the wealthiest of all Spain. The best teaching hospital of Spain is in Pamplona, capital of the Basque region.

But let us not forget ETA, the terrorists of Spain; they are Vascos/Biscayans and they have killed hundreds of innocent people. Right now since few weeks ago they are in a truce (one of many), but some Basque firms have received “demanding” (money) letters and some offices were burned last week. It is under investigation to see when those letters were actually sent: before of after the truce.

Amparo.

hats
April 29, 2006 - 01:04 pm
Amparo, I am glad you are here. I am really learning a lot. It is all very interesting.

hegeso
April 29, 2006 - 02:56 pm
Joan P., I don't take Sancho standing for simple people influenced by the stronger character, but it might be one of his features. As I said, I don't consider the book a psychological one. I don't know what Cervantes meant. I just think that the contrast between him and the Don is the great difference between people with imagination and those without.

JoanK
April 29, 2006 - 04:06 pm
SCOOTZ was correct. The answer to "the discoverer of all things" is "time".

Just after I found this, I was rereading Chapter 9 (I read it a month ago, but find I don't remember it) and found that Cervantes refers to "Time, the devourer and consumer of all things." (p. 66 Grossman) Pat says her Raffel translation is similar. Can this be the same quote that the NYT got wrong? Or does he say both? I'm going to keep my eyes open for his use of time.

My sense of humor seems to be crawling back from wherever it went. On second reading, I found this fight quite funny.

Pat H
April 29, 2006 - 05:49 pm
Before we get too far from chapter 8, I would like to point out something that impressed me strongly. When don Q is about to tackle the windmills and Sancho Panza objects, he says, "Obviously, you don’t know much about adventures. These are giants." When Panza objects to his attack on the Benedictine friars, he says; "But haven’t I already told you, Sancho, that you don’t know anything about adventures? What I’ve told you is the truth, as you’ll see in a moment."

I’m not quite sure why, but this suggests to me that don Q sort of realizes that they are not giants, or magicians, but feels that they are transformed into such for the purpose of his quest.

CathieS
April 29, 2006 - 06:08 pm
JoanK..

Here's the quote from chapter 25, part 2 actually:

ye there!’ quoth Sancho, ‘did not I tell you that I could not believe that all you said of Montesinos’ Cave could hold current?‘ ‘The success hereafter will determine that,’ quoth Don Quixote,’ for time, the discoverer of all things, brings everything to the sun’s light, though it be hidden in the bosom of the earth

Note- my translation does not translate it this way, tho, saying instead ""time, which reveals all things...."

1amparo
April 29, 2006 - 10:07 pm
Very good translation, Scootz. Here is what my Spanish copy has;

:..."que el tiempo, descubridor de todas las cosas, no se deja ninguna que no la saque a la luz del sol, aunque escondida en los senos de la tierra."

Amparo.

Joan Pearson
April 30, 2006 - 05:33 am
Good Sunday morning Dreamers!

So many thought-provoking posts to ponder over morning coffee. You know, we're not going to come up with all the answers to all the questions this early in our adventure - but the questions will surely stay with us as we read the amusing episodes. Our comicality meter, JoanK is showing a rise in the barometer. Scootz asked about 100 posts ago if we were going to be reading a series of knightly adventures. I think that's what we are seeing, Scootz, don't you? A series of amusing adventures - or would you say a parody of the knightly tales of YORE? But there also seems to be a strong, subtle (can anything be strong AND subtle at the same time?) undercurrent. I see Cervantes using the tales of adventure to convey the chaotic situation of the "modern" times in which he lives.

PatH, I was much taken with your observation - that on some level, Don Q. realizes that the windmills are not giants or magicians... Cervantes is using the tales of adventure to inform us of the reality of the period in which he lives, he is using his character, Don Q to get the message across. If Sancho knows, if we all know the truth, the reality of the windmills, then what is Don Q's character really fighting? Does he know? Who, what is the real enemy?

Hats has a question out there - "When did the Age of Chivalry begin and when did this period decline? Did the Age of Civalry wane because of the Inquisition?" Not so easy a question to answer, as the Age of Chivalry died out slowly from its peak...there were hundreds of years between the Golden Age of Chivalry and the Renaissance, which is just beginning in Cervantes time. Guttenberg's printing press brought books out of the monasteries where they were hand copied and into the hands of not just the elite, but the bourgeoisie. The more literate the people became, the less powerful the Church. The Inquisition seems to be the Church's attempt to hold on to its religious, political and economical power.

Volume I is said to read like the Age of Chivalry - Volume II, the Renaissance, with its emphasis on the rights, the equality of man. But I'm already seeing this in Cervantes underlying messages, in the stories that we are reading in the first volume, don't you? I find myself laughing at the impossible situations in which Quixote finds himself - but searching for the underlying message -

Hegeso, I agree with you, I'm not finding this a psychological novel...but find the developing relationship between Sancho and his "master" important to the story. At least that is how I see it. His growing "equality" is something I'm following closely.

I found a whole lot of material on the significance of the pomegranate..."the pome of Granada" - and will post in all in a separate post - no time left to edit it down, but you might find it of interest as I did. Amparo, we need you to locate Granada for us, and to connect the dots to the Basque people, if there are any to connect? Phyll, thank you for the discussion on the Basque language. It is interesting that there was no written language until the 16th century. I also read in that link that there was a Moorish population...from the northern Africa. The following information on the pomegranate will explain what happened to the Moorish population in Spain in the early part of the 17th century.

Joan Pearson
April 30, 2006 - 05:35 am
During the time of Cervantes, the Royal banner of Kings Philip II and III continued to display this symbol at its center (Fig. 3). Perhaps most interesting for a decentered reading of the significance of the pomegranate in Don Quixote is the pomegranate's appearance on the Estandarte de Caballeria [Banner of the Cavalry] of 1580 (Fig. 4), a flag with which we might imagine the novel's peerless knight-errant would have been intimately familiar. Given the fact that Toledo is the place where the second narrator of the 1605 Quixote ultimately finds the Arabic continuation of the adumbrated text as well as the mysterious bilingual agent who agrees to execute its translation, we must take the mention of the pomegranate at the beginning of Chapter 9 as a reference to the type of symbolism that abounds in this town.


(Badge of Catherine of Aragon


Fig. 3. Royal banner of Kings (see the pomegranate?)
Philip II, III, and IV (1580-1700


Fig. 7. Ceiling Decoration (c. 1506) Monastery of San Juan, Toledo
"Even though I recognized them, I still could not understand them, and so I walked around to see if there might be some Spanish-speaking Morisco about, who would be able to read them; and it was not very difficult to find such an interpreter, for even if I had wanted one for another better and much older language, I would have found one." Given its clear and common geopolitical significance, when Cervantes evokes the pomegranate at the precise moment in which he freezes the action of the battle between the Castilian knight and his Basque adversary, only to then introduce us to it again by way of a text discovered in a town famous for its ancient Jewish population, a text written in Arabic by Cide Hamete and then translated into Spanish by a Morisco, he has created a linguistic, cultural, and geopolitical emblem of the entire history of Spain. http://www.wisdomportal.com/Stanford/EricGraf.html
**********************************************************
The Fall of Granada In 1491, the Catholic Monarchs (Ferdinand and Isabella) demanded that the Moors evacuate Granada. The King of Granada, Boabdil, could put up only token resistance. On January 2, 1492, Boabdil and his retinue departed the Alhambra by a gate called Los Siete Suelos, and he asked that this gate be sealed up forever. Boabdil retreated south to the mountains, and as he reached a mountain pass where he could look down on his city for the last time, he wept profoundly. The pass is known to this day as "El Ultimo Sospiro del Moro" (Last Sigh of the Moor). His mother is supposed to have reproached him, saying: "Weep not like a woman for what you could not defend like a man." The loss of Granada was bewailed all over the Moslem world. Even today, Arabs mourn Granada in their evening prayers.

Granada after the Reconquest A long period of decline set in, partly as a result of the expulsion of the moriscos (Moslems living under Christian rule) in 1609, depriving the city of its most talented citizens. http://www.passports.com/trips/cityfact/cityfact.asp?city=Granada

Joan Pearson
April 30, 2006 - 08:40 am
Off we go to the "happiest place on earth"- aka, Disney World. We shall see. Grandbabies are awfully young for this! Am bringing brand new lapdog with me just to keep in touch with you, though have no idea how much time will be mine to spend.

Will be interested to hear what you all think of Marcela - and what Cervantes' underlying message is in bringing her to us through this story. At first I thought "nun" - but there are other elements here - I'm eager to hear what you think -

Super Sunday, everyone! Up, up and awaaaay!

hats
April 30, 2006 - 09:01 am
JoanP,

Have fun! You have left us so much good information. It will take awhile for me to take it all in. Remember the Fifth Dimensions??? "Up, up and Away." Enjoy the grandbabies.

CathieS
April 30, 2006 - 10:47 am
There seems to be a mere handful of us here doing DQ. Where are all the folks who voted for this book? I'm just curious....it seems so strange to me that it won and there were so many votes yet, besides the two leaders, there seem to be about 6 or so of us. What happened? Do the vast majority lurk?

Deems
April 30, 2006 - 11:00 am
Have a great trip, Joan. I do not envy you this trip. I have assiduously avoided Disneyland or World, all my life. I don't know what it is about it that bothers me, but all its cartoonish whoopee yahooness creeps me out. I've seen the photos, know many people who have been there, have been really close to it on various trips to Florida and have not once felt the urge to check it out in person.

However, different strokes for different folks, and I'm sure others here have had wonderful times at Disney World. Do check in if you get a chance, but don't worry about us. You have certainly left us plenty to chew on. I'm with Hats. It will take a while to absorb the pomegranate. Nice banner.

I have other things to say, but have promised a friend I would go to a book signing and thus must wait and come back later.

Pat H--Can't leave without mentioning that your comment about Quixote himself realizing on some levels that windmills are not Giants is important. His act of imagination--or as he would say the enchantment of some foe of his--turns the ordinary into the spectacular. He is a knight at a time when there haven't been any knights for 300 years, and he must have his adventures. His mind sometimes believes and sometimes doesn't, but he wants to believe. I think that is all important.

~Maryal

JoanK
April 30, 2006 - 03:37 pm
SCOOTZ: amazing -- you found the quote! So time is both the discoverer and devourer of all things. OK.

PAT: perhaps I'm too influenced by modern literature, but I'm waiting for Cervantes to start us questioning which of the two realities, DQ's or ours, is the realer. We'll see.

I'm with DEEMS. I've avoided Disney's worlds and their imitators like the plague. But I hope you don't feel that way, JOANP. My four-year-old likes Disneyland, although scared of some of the things.

1amparo
April 30, 2006 - 06:47 pm
Here you have a map of Spain. Granada (Andalucia) on the South, and Vizcaya (Guipuzcoa) close to France.

Toledo, Ciudad Real, Cuenca, Albacete and Guadalajara are all in Castilla la Nueva and of course, Quixote travels.

http://arce.proteccioncivil.org/directorio/mapa_espana.gif

Cheers.

Amparo

Traude S
April 30, 2006 - 08:20 pm
SCOOTZ, I've peeked in here and in the Book Nook
(in fact saw your post about Julia Glass and "Three Junes" as well as ALF's mention of Marcia Davenport and WILL reply)
but did not have the time to post, here or there, because I was and still am preoccupied with repairs around my house and all they entail.

Just wanted to explain my temporary absence. I'm still with the team.

marni0308
April 30, 2006 - 09:45 pm
amparo: Thanks for the map!

Pat H: I really thought about your comment, "....this suggests to me that don Q sort of realizes that they are not giants, or magicians, but feels that they are transformed into such for the purpose of his quest." I think you hit on something really important. I felt the Don did this when he talked about the cure-all medicine, too - like he was making up a magical tale that fit in nicely with his adventure. His "squire" believed his story about the medicine, too.

-------------------------

Spain's history is very important in this book. There is so much I don't know about this complicated and interesting history. There were so many different provinces that were conquered and re-conquered over time - so many different cultures and ethnic groups like the Basques and the Catalonians, the Arabs, Jews, Gypsies, etc. We read today about some of these ethnic groups demanding independence - like the Basques and Catalonians - and even terrorist activities like the bombing of the train in Madrid.

I wonder how much I'm going to miss in this book because of how little I know about Spain's history.

CathieS
May 1, 2006 - 04:34 am
JoanK- I can't claim I found that quote myself- google helped! LOL

I feel like I'm getting Joank and PatH mixed up- why is that? Any rate, I do want to go back and look at Pat's comment about the windmills and agree with Marni as to it possibly being significant. Later on that!

I'll watch for you over at Book Nook, Traude!

Mippy
May 1, 2006 - 06:40 am
Scootz ~
I'm here, too, reading along. I saw your mention about missing participants.
This upcoming week is a travel week, so I won't be posting much, but will enjoy catching up on May 9th, if possible. I really do enjoy reading everyone's posts.

marni0308
May 1, 2006 - 09:30 am
I just saw a blurb in the newspaper that Bob Dylan is giving a concert in Basque country - I don't know exactly where. He asked that people not make it a political event.

hats
May 1, 2006 - 01:15 pm
Marni, that's interesting.

CathieS
May 1, 2006 - 02:17 pm
I'm so sorry all but after careful thought, I am packing up my mule and heading into the sunset on old DQ. It's just not my thing and I can't keep going, especially since the group will go for many months. I wish you all the best in your adventures with Don and Sancho. Could someone else please leave a trail of crumbs for hats in my stead? Thanks in advance and see you in other groups!!

Deems
May 1, 2006 - 05:02 pm
Sorry to see you on the trail for other parts, Scootz. If you change your mind, we'll be here chugging along. I'll save the best mule or donkey (take your pick, but I recommend the mule) for you.

There are questions in the heading for Chap. 11 and 12. Which means that I'm going to do some reading tonight so that I can come in here and spin some wheels. Sorry for my late appearance today. I've been chasing down students who owe me final papers and reading some of the papers I already have. These are short research papers, but there are 40 of them. There are also 20 exams from the other course, the first part handwritten; for the essays, I borrowed a computer classroom. The printed essays will be a break for my eyes after I read through all the short answer questions. You would NOT believe how tiny some of the writing is. Really really small. I have small handwriting myself, but this looks almost like someone wrote it and then shrank it. Truly.

Anyway, my apologies for not being here in a timely fashion today. Will do my best to be better tomorrow. And I'll read chaps 11 and 12.

Where are all of you?

I like the part in chap 10 (read today in the doctor's office) where Quixote and Sancho Panza are having a conversation. Sancho proves invaluable, once again, when he tells Don Q that he need not hunt down the Basque who ruined his helmet because if said Basque did as he was ordered and went to present himself to "my lady Dulcinea of Toboso, then he has already done what he had to do and doesn't deserve another punishment if he doesn't commit another crime."

Quixote accepts this reasoning but vows to keep his oath not to eat or sleep with his wife (he has no wife) and the other things he cannot remember until he takes by force another helmet "as good as this one from some other knight."

Maryal

ALF
May 1, 2006 - 05:12 pm
Poor ole Sancho Belly. He well expected his reward of an island/kingdom to govern after the fight, only to be told that this particular adventure was merely “a cross roads” and they must forge ahead.

I hope I haven’t missed a post about this but weren’t the Chaldeans Jewish? Or did it mean “astronomer?
What does this reference mean? ” for I will deliver thee out of the hands of the Chaldeans”.

This balsam of DonQ’s is quite the salve isn’t it? Maybe we should all bottle it.

Ah, the glory of knights errant. No food to savor. Perhaps I should travel a bit further. I need to drop about 20#s.

Deems
May 1, 2006 - 08:30 pm
Andy--I love the magical potion that Quixote has memorized out of one of his romance novels. It has properties so magnificent that it can heal a knight who have been cloven in two parts. All Sancho needs to do is recover the top half, carefully align it with the bottom half (still in the saddle, natch) and then give Quixote two mouthfuls of it.

Presto, chango, the good Quixote will be restored to full health. We need that recipe, don't we? No wonder Sancho is willing to forego his insula and have Quixote give him the recipe instead!

Think about the times. . . . . think about explorers who had recently been searching for the fountain of youth.

One wouldn't need a whole fountain if one could replicate this magic healing potion.

And we could give some to Bill so that he'd be right back on the golf course tomorrow!

marni0308
May 1, 2006 - 09:32 pm
The Don certainly needs some of his own magic healing potion for his poor ear. Didn't he have 1/2 of his ear cut off in his battle with the Basque? He keeps saying to Sancho how it hurts. Finally, one of the goatherds applies some sort of poultice made of rosemary mixed with salt and spit and it apparently helps.

The goatherds were incredibly welcoming and generous. They shared their dinner, much wine, and even song with the Don and his worthy squire. They even politely listened to the Don's very lengthy story of some golden age. At first I thought he was talking about the golden age of Greece, but it was all so very idealistic that it sounded like some Greek myths that he had mixed up. ("In that blessed age all things were in common; to win the daily food no labour was required of any save to stretch forth his hand and gather it from the sturdy oaks that stood generously inviting him with their sweet ripe fruit."???)

JoanK
May 2, 2006 - 01:09 am
SCOOTZ: sorry, we'll miss you. Hope you change your mind.

Now reality is starting to get really confusing. Goatherds who are just as full of romantic ideas as DQ. First we have one with that crazy poem (saying I know you love me, even though you keep saying you don't --a Renaissance stalker?). And then all these people dressed as shepherds and shepherdesses. Since the goatherds couldn't read, what has made them crazy with romantic ideas?

hats
May 2, 2006 - 02:14 am
Scootz,

I hate to see you go. If you feel like mounting up and returning, please do.

kidsal
May 2, 2006 - 02:17 am
In Reading Around the World we read Pomegranate Soup and the importance of the pomegranate in Muslim cooking, etc.

hats
May 2, 2006 - 03:02 am
Hi Kidsal,

I remember! Who can forget "Pomegranate Soup?" I loved those sisters. Now we are faced with the Pomegranate all over again. Isn't it exciting?

Joan Pearson
May 2, 2006 - 05:20 am
Greetings from SUNNY Florida! Unrelenting sun! Almost time to start out for another theme park - Today is Tuesday - MGM Studios theme park today(???)

I am still hearing "It's a Small World" from numerous trips on that ride yesterday. The kids LOVE it. Both Jonah and Bryce too. They are both a year old. "Oh wow" said Bryce over and over. Jonah just pointed and stared...in awe. Something funny - Don Quixote and Sancho are portrayed in the ride. Jonah pointed them out to me. I think he was pointing at Sancho's mule. Does the mule have a name?

Can you believe we were at the Magic Kingdom from 8:30 am until 10pm last night? I don't think I can do that every day this week...

The reading schedule has been altered a bit to accommodate those who are behind. Don't want to lose any more of you. Let's get into the story of Marcela the shepherdess (what a gal) this week and that will conclude Part II of Volume I.

Scootz, I too hope you reconsider - we are hardly into the trip- this is the hard part. You will be missed - you are never afraid to call things as you see them. Till we meet again.

In the chapter preceding Marcela's story, I was interested to see Don call Sancho to his side during the meal. Wasn't this unusual to have a servant sit with his master? The subject of equality seems to be the issue in this chapter...as it surely will be in Marcela's story. Really want to hear your comments on Chapter XI - did anything in particular catch your attention?

GEEEEE...we're leaving for MGM Studios in 15 minutes! Haven't showered yet!!! I hear Bruce making dinner reservations for this evening - 9 adults and 5 children! This is crazy!

Wishing you all a quiet, peaceful day!

CathieS
May 2, 2006 - 05:26 am
Scootz, I too hope you reconsider - we are hardly into the trip- this is the hard part. You will be missed - you are never afraid to call things as you see them. Till we meet again.

Joan and others,

Thanks so much for saying I'll be missed. I'm afraid that besides not enjoying the book at all, my neck problems at the computer really made the final decision for me. I'm even unable to read right now for any length of time. I'll be in other groups, so I'll be seeing you all, just not on the Toboso Trail. Ok, I'll leave you all to it...no more interruptions from me.

hats
May 2, 2006 - 06:43 am
Hi JoanP,

You ask what do we find of interest in chapter xi. I find Don Q's speech of special interest. He compares his age, the Iron Age, with the Golden Age of long ago. Strange, I don't find Don Q's speech queer in any way. To me, it makes sense.

"Fortunate the age and fortunate the times called golden by the ancients, and not because gold, which in this our age of iron is so highly esteemed, could be found then with no effort, but because those who lived in that time did not know the two words thine and mine. In that blessed age all things were owned in common."

Don Q, if he is revealing his sincere and true thoughts, would like to live in a time of hospitality and good will, not in a time of greed. I would like to know a little more about The Golden Age vs. The Iron Age. Are Don Q's thoughts about The Golden Age true? I know there is a tendency for me to look back on the past and see it as golden and wonderful, dismissing the bad parts of the past. My friend calls it a "convenient memory." Can I trust Don Q's thoughts about the past vs. the present? Is he looking through those rose colored glasses again.

I think Don Q wants a Utopian society.

Scootz, take care of that neck. I know it hurts.

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 11:50 am
Well lookee there. JoanP from the Magical Kingdom. This is our very own Quixotic addition. Joan sees Don Q and Sancho Panza somewhere in Disneyland. And young grandson points to Sancho's mount. And Joan wonders if Sancho's mount has a name.

To my knowledge, no name for the donkey. It is simply Sancho's means of transportation; he admits that he's not one for walking. Don Q quecks his memory to see if knights ever had attendants on donkeys. Having come up with nary a donkey, he decides that in this case it will be O.K. Not the last of the rules he will change in order to pursue his own knightly exploits. It's a huge advantage with any game when you are the one making up the rules. I have vivid memories of games we made up on the playground and the elaborate way we came to a decision as to just who could make up new rules. The games were constantly changing.

marni, thank you for reminding us of the poultice that the goatherd makes for Don Q's poor ear. The last sentence in my translation indicates that the poultice was all the ear needed to heal. Also you remind us of the hospitality the goatherds show to our knight and his squire. Hospitality was the chief virtue in the ancient world. It is a paramount virtue in both The Odyssey and the Old Testament, for example.

If you think about it, without hospitality, no one could have left his home to travel anywhere of any distance. Once one was in foreign territory (say twenty miles away), one was subject to being robbed, killed, set upon by who knows who. The only thing that kept order was the obligation to be hospitable to the stranger, taught by all the ancient codes. Most of us are familiar with the Bible. Look at how many times in the OT, the Israelites are instructed to be good to the foreigner in their land because they were once foreigners in Egypt.

These goatherds take Don Q and Sancho Panza in; they feed them; they entertain them; one treats Don Q's wound; they allow them to sleep with them. They understand not a word of Quixote's monologue about the Golden Age, yet they listen politely.

Question for the day: What is this Golden Age that Quixote talks of? Whose Golden Age was it?

~Maryal

Mippy
May 2, 2006 - 02:13 pm
Regarding wealthy Marcela, who went to live like a shepardess:
I don't see arrogance, I see an author with a good tale to tell.
I enjoy a feeling of fantasy ... does Marcela have to be a real person?
And isn't dressing in a more simple mode a nice fantasy?
Doesn't Shakespeare use that devise, in the king or prince mixing with the commoners ... sorry, can't grab the correct plays out of memory ... but the history plays come to mind, with Prince Hal and Falstaff ... correct me if I've got the wrong play, here ...
Didn't Queen Marie Antoinette and her ladies dress up as milk maids?
Isn't this used in opera, also? Mozart had Don Giovanni and Leporello switch roles when courting the ladies, although on stage they usually just switch floppy hats, which makes it funnier; and then that Don can pretend he's just a country lad ... until he gets caught.

Perhaps these are enough examples, but I see Cervantes just using this pleasant diversion as one of many tales for DQ to encounter on his fabulous journey.

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 02:38 pm
Hmmmmm. I see there are no takers on the Golden Age Question. Just what is this Golden Age?

Where are all our googlers?

Where are our history experts?

Where's Ginny, the classicist?

Maryal

marni0308
May 2, 2006 - 02:49 pm
Maryal: I mentioned earlier I thought for a moment it was the Golden Age of Greece. He mentions the labyrinth of Crete. But then the Don starts making everything totally idealistic like nobody had to pay for anything - just reach out and grab food off of a tree. So, it's not Greece. That's the only Golden Age I've heard of.

Does anybody know of another Golden Age? Did someone mention the Golden Age of Chivalry? Was there such a thing?

Ginny
May 2, 2006 - 03:22 pm
Oh well, if bidden I can come out of the shadows but I am not , to my regret, reading the book. There may well BE a Golden Age of Chivalry, seems like I do recall hearing something about that but the one I know of is Greek (and in Roman Literature).

Hesiod (a Greek poet) talked about a Golden race, who lived far back in time before Zeus became King of the Gods, back with Cronus (Saturn) (that's FAR back). These early generations lived in happier idyllic times, and the Golden Age was succeeded, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, by

progressively inferior races, those of silver, bronze and iron, the last being our own; the deterioration was interrupted by the race of heroes (those who fought in the Theban and Trojan wars) who immediately preceded us. The Roman poets Horace, Virgil and Ovid all borrowed the idea, but the Romans, in translating the Greek word genos (generation or race), by the Latin saeculum incidentally introduced the additional meaning of the latter, namely "age" or "long period of time." Hence there came about the idea of a Golden Age.

The term "Golden Age" has also been used by literary critics to describe the Ciceronian and Augustan ages of Latin literature.


So Marni was on the right track! Oh I figured the "us" out, it was Hesiod speaking, he was about 700 BC, the Iron Age, and he and Homer are considered to have...created many of the myths about the gods.

But do either of those Golden Ages fit in with what you are reading about??


Happy
Happy Birthday,
Maryal!!

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 03:48 pm
marni--Yes, I read your mentioning of the Greek/Roman Golden Age above. Just trying to lure more people into the discussion, I guess. And lookie, there's Ginny her own classical self!

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 03:57 pm
Yes, Ginny, those would be the Golden Ages we are thinking of. Not the Golden Age of Chivalry (if there was one) but THE Golden Age, the one marni referred to and that Ginny tells us more of.

The main point for the question (other than luring the lurker) was that the so-called Golden Age never existed--it was way back there in the remote past (that never was). Think of the Garden of Eden. All that free food, no work, tame animals, no death, apparently no pain in childbirth. That's the Judeo-Christian Golden Age. Many think that the Garden never existed just like the Greek Golden age.

It's a nostalgia thing for me, along the lines of "There once was a time, long long ago, when there was no winter, shepherdesses went around singing in the hills, the water was pure, the fruit delicious, life had no problems (or challenges as they are currently called) and on and on.

But it is a mythical time; it never existed. It is hearkened back to with longing, but there never was such a time.

And this is exactly the sort of adventure Don Quixote is on, the dream that he pursues. It is not only the "impossible dream" of the musical but an unachievable dream, one that never was, not in the age of chivalry, not in Don Quixote's time. Never.

But his recounting of it--and marni, yes, he mixes in a number of ideas--gives him such pleasure. It fits right in with his dream.

Thank you, Ginny. That is exactly the information I was looking for. You don't have to be reading Don Quixote to be our resident classicist. Do you?

OK, one to the shepherdess, Marcella, in Chapter 12. I agree with mippy that it is yet another of the tales that keep us amused in this novel, but why shepherds and shepherdesses?

Gotta go look for a poem.

Back later, Maryal

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 04:27 pm
The Passionate Shepherd to His Love

Come live with me and be my love,
And we will all the pleasures prove,
That hills and valleys, dale and field,
And all the craggy mountains yield.


There will we sit upon the rocks,
And see the shepherds feed their flocks
By shallow rivers, to whose falls
Melodious birds sing madrigals.


There will I make thee beds of roses,
And a thousand fragrant posies,
A cap of flowers and a kirtle
Embroidered all with leaves of myrtle;


A gown made of the finest wool,
Which from our pretty lambs we pull; Fair-lined slippers for the cold,
With buckles of the purest gold;


A belt of straw and ivy buds,
With coral clasps and amber studs;
And if these pleasures may thee move,
Come live with me and be my love.

The shepherd swains shall dance and sing
For thy delight each May morning;
If these delights thy mind may move,
Then live with me and be my love.

~Christopher Marlowe (1564-1593)

Notice Marlowe's dates. Don Q, Vol I was published in 1605. I have no idea whether Cervantes knew anything of this poem, but at the time it, and many poems like it, were very popular. The speaker in the poem urges his lady love to live with him. He promises all manner of happiness. Note that the time is May, the merry month of May. Not a bad time to be a shepherd and live out in nature.

Another poet wrote a response to this poem, noting all the obvious problems with living in nature.

I'll go find it.

~Maryal

joan roberts
May 2, 2006 - 06:21 pm
Hello, All! I haven’t gone away – I’ve just been sidelined by my eyes! I bought my copy of Grossman’s translation and barely started it when I had first one then , in a few weeks, the second cataract operation. I won’t have proper reading glasses for a month but the long distance vision is super. This means I can read on the computer but not my wonderful text! I found an e-book of DQ but it’s the John Ormsby translation which I’m not particularly enjoying. There aren’t any footnotes either. I’m able to follow along on the discussion pretty well but it’ll be better later. I am not giving up!! I have a copy of Nabokov’s lectures on Don Quixote which I can hardly wait to read..

Scootz - If I can hack it, so can you – I have faith that the whole thing gets much easier and more interesting the further along you go. Please stay!

Deems
May 2, 2006 - 08:56 pm
Joan Roberts--Welcome back. Until you see the doctor for a prescription, you might try just picking up some reading glasses from the drug store or supermarket.

I had cataract surgery last summer and I use reading glasses. In my case, they are 1.50 and about fifteen dollars (some as cheap as ten) from my local grocery store that has a pharmacy attached.

You can take a book with small print over to the reading glasses display and test out all the different strengths.

They won't do any harm to your eyes.

Maryal

marni0308
May 2, 2006 - 10:03 pm
"Come live with me and be my love." I love that line. I know I've read this poem in the distant past.

I re-read chapters 11 and 12 because I basically forgot what I had read. I re-read the poem - the ballad, rather - in chpt. 11 - that the educated musical goatherd sang.

Is it me, or is this ballad fairly .....lusty? Or am I reading into it? Hmmmmm. "...but small proof of penetration"...."The border of her robe unfolding"....."That you will to my hopes prove kind, Is but a natural conclusion"....."Nor would I now possess by stealth, The guilty joys of fornication"...."She lied, I told her in her throat" etc.

The last two stanzas could possibly be spicy, but I'm not sure I even understand them. Maybe I'm just in a spicy mode after reading the poem!

I think it's interesting that this ballad was written by the musician Antonio's uncle, the curate. Hmmmm. What's that all about?!

marni0308
May 2, 2006 - 10:28 pm
2. Why would the wealthy Marcela live in the fields with the shepherds? Do you blame her for wanting to escape her many suitors? Do you see arrogance?

3. "Her face was just like the sun on one side and the moon on the other." Is Pedro's unusual description of Marcela's mother a clue to Marcela's behavior?

I found both of these questions interesting. To be honest, I'm not sure that I see arrogance and two-sidedness in Marcela from her actions. She was incredibly beautiful and you'd think this could make her vain and arrogant, especially with all of the men falling all over her left and right. But, I don't see the words that show arrogance. It seems she simply made it clear to her uncle that she didn't want to get married. She apparently became pretty tired of all the fuss.

Marcela is described as "timorous." She took to the "free and unconfined" lifestyle of the shepherdess. Yes, she did "expose her beauty" for all to see by being out in the open. I don't see her flaunting herself, though. She vigilantly guarded her honor and gave no man "the smallest hope of accomplishing his desire." She doesn't seem to have led anyone on. She "neither flies, or avoids the company and conversation of the shepherds, but, treats them in a courteous and friendly manner." She just "throws...from her, like a stone" any male who attempts to suggest marriage. The girl is not ready to get married!

The men passionately lusting after Marcela seem to see something in her that perhaps is not there. Cervantes uses the word "coyness." "...her coyness and plain-dealing drives them even to the borders of despair" etc. It is the men who see her as cruel and two-faced. They feel that over them "the free, the unconcerned, the fair Marcela triumphs."

Men, men, men. All this because she is beautiful. I don't see any other attribute of hers except beauty that cause men like Chrysostom to pine away and die for love of her. This sort of fits right in nicely with the Don's vision of himself as a knight fighting for the fair Dulcinea. This tale is right up his alley.

Joan Pearson
May 2, 2006 - 11:34 pm
Happy, Happy Birthday, Maryal!

I guess I missed the partay! Did you blow out all the candles? Did you make your wishes? My birthday wish for you - may they all come true! Did you save me some cake?

Am BEAT! How can this be happening? We leave the hotel at 8:30 in the morning and drag in after 10 pm every night with five exhausted, sticky - (and today add "bloody" to the mix!) little ones. How come sleeping babies are so much heavier... B-E-A-T

Great question, Hats? Now, why does Don see himself in the "Iron" age?

Marcela is certainly a strong willed young woman, isn't she? This is highly unusual for a well-bred young girl to be doing - living unchaperoned on the side of the mountain with the goats. As I understand it, the Moors have just been expelled from Spain and are everywhere in the countryside. Is this dangerous? She doesn't seem to resemble any other girls of the Iron Age.

I think the description of her mother is important, Marni. It caught my eye and I think we need to know if anyone has a footnote or commentary on what this is supposed to mean - the moon on one side of her face the stars on the other? Mippy, an interesting idea to consider - maybe she isn't anyone at all. Or, maybe she is someone - out of the Golden Age? Maybe we need to read the rest of her story in Chapters XIII and XIV - to understand better what she represents in Cervantes' tale. I suspect she's more than a diversion.

Tomorrow - Animal Kingdom - and 94 degrees predicted! You enjoy your day, I've got work to do!

JoanK
May 3, 2006 - 12:13 am
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARYAL!

Do all these references to shepardesses and the Golden Age lead back to Homer? I keep thinking of the pastoral description in the Iliad of the scene on Achilles shield. Haven't read Marcella yet, but the quotes make her sound like any of a dozen women in Greek Mythology -- beautiful, but avoiding men, and wandering through nature. They all came to a bad end, being raped or seduced by a god or man. We'll see what happens to Marcella.

hats
May 3, 2006 - 12:23 am
Happy Birthday, Maryal!!

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 08:22 am
Thanks for the Birthday wishes folks. Now onward and upward.

First we must send vicarious strength to Joan P. It looks like there is a plan in operation and it has been determined to see a different part of DisneyWorld every day. And they don't get in until 10:00 at night.

JoanP--Sleeping babies are dead weight. Now you understand that phrase has a meaning. Odd, isn't it, but when you are carrying a wide-awake baby they don't weigh nearly as much. Isn't it peculiar to think that we actually do something to hold all our molecules together when we are awake,but when ZZzzzzzzzzz occurs, we gain a few pounds.

Anyway, Joan P, I think you are going to have to set a limit on how late you are out. Something along the lines of, "OK, you folks have fun at dinner, but I'm going back to the hotel." Maybe you could even lure one of the little ones to come along with you.

marni--I'm not seeing much in Marcela either. I take her at her word that she does not want to marry (yet, maybe never; after all, her mother died in childbirth). The description about a face shining like the moon on one side and the sun on the other is applied to Marcela's mother (83 in Grossman) and not to Marcela.

Joan K--I'm sure that the Greek pastoral tradition is very much at play here. It is what all those poems about shepherds and shepherdesses remembered. So we have the Golden Age and the Pastoral Tradition both at play here.

Ginny, m'dear, we need you again. Who was it who wrote all those pastoral poems, eclogues or some such? Was it Virgil? I have too many papers to grade to look it up.

Marcela's story is concluded in the next chapter. Perhaps we need to withhold our judgment of what its signigicance is until we read that chapter.

Meanwhile, I found Sir Walter Raleigh's response to Marlowe's Passionate Shepherd poem.

I'll go find it.

~Maryal

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 08:28 am
Here is Sir Walter Raleigh's poem. It answers Marlowe's poem by enumerating the reality of life lived outdoors.

The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd

If all the world and love were young,
And truth in every shepherd's tongue,
These pretty pleasures might me move
To live with thee and be thy love.


Time drives the flocks from field to fold
When rivers rage and rocks grow cold,
And Philomel becometh dumb;
The rest complains of cares to come.


The flowers do fade, and wanton fields
To wayward winter reckoning yields;
A honey tongue, a heart of gall,
Is fancy's spring, but sorrow's fall.


Thy gowns, thy shoes, thy beds of roses,
Thy cap, thy kirtle, and thy posies
Soon break, soon wither, soon forgotten—
In folly ripe, in season rotten.


Thy belt of straw and ivy buds,
Thy coral clasps and amber studs,
All these in me no means can move
To come to thee and be thy love.


But could youth last and love still breed,
Had joys no date nor age no need,
Then these delights my mind might move
To live with thee and be thy love.


Sir Walter Raleigh (1554?-1618)

Ginny
May 3, 2006 - 08:36 am
hahaha Deems, you are wily like a fox, you know perfectly well it was Virgil and the Eclogues (10 pastoral poems). Virgil seems not to have used the title Eclogues but rather Bucolica: bucolic or pastoral.

Virgil spent three years in their composition, starting about 42 BC. They were immediately acclaimed. They are rich in and may have been imitations or echoes to begin with of those pastoral poems of the Greek "Theocritus (first half of 3rd C, B.C.) and his Idylls I-II," according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, and are also full of allegory. Theocritis is credited with being the originator of pastoral or bucolic poetry.

Ostensibly about pastoral scenes, shepherds, etc., they may, in fact carry veiled reference to other things. It's thought that Daphnis in Eclogue 5, represents Julius Caesar.

Eclogue 4 owes nothing to any Greek predecessor and has been cited more than any other short poem in Latin, here's the OCCL on it:

In the Middle Ages it[ Eclogue 4] was accepted as a Messianic prophecy of the birth of the Christ-child given under divine inspiration. St. Jerome was exceptional in expressing disbelief.


There's quite a lot about these beautiful poems, actually. Too much to put here. They became "the models of pastoral poetry and the inspirers of pastoral romance and drama in later ages...Unlike Theocritus….he [Vergil] allowed elements of contemporary reality to intrude into his Arcadian world, using myth and symbolic imagery to allude to recent history."

…Virgil was also the first to use the pastoral as a vehicle for moral criticism of the society of his own day.

...Virgil created a simple world which is an image of life but distinct from it , and his Eclogues derive their haunting quality from the implied relationships between the two.

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 08:56 am
Maryal: Why did Sir Walter Raleigh respond by poetry to Marlowe's poem? Do you know?

OK, the classical references are WAY over my head - psshhhheewwww!

I would love it if you DL's would answer your own questions for chapter 12. Or is anyone else going to give it a go???

Ginny
May 3, 2006 - 09:02 am
hahaha Marni! Now THERE'S a challenge! hahaha

and here I was just coming back in to say you have several Resident Classicists here, of whom Marni is one!

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 09:26 am
HAH! A Classicist I am not!

However, I've been learning more and more in my wonderful Latin class taught by Ms. Ginny.

I had a children's book of Greek and Roman myths and legends that I adored as a child. In school my classical education was VERY limited. I'm really disappointed about it all now that I look back on it. It's a real handicap in certain situations - like in discussing the Don!!!

Has there been a book discussion of ancient classics on SeniorNet? Stuff like Homer and Virgil?

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 09:42 am
Marni, interesting isn't it? Raleigh's poem. He responded in poetry (not so good as Marlowe's but never mind that) because the original was in poetry. In the Elizabethan age, all successful courtiers were men of wit who could write sonnets when called upon to do so. Raleigh was also a man of action. The two were not at odds.

It was such a rich period. People whose poems we do not have also wrote sonnets to their beloved ladies; it was very much the fashion and custom of the day.

Neither Marlowe's nor Raleigh's poem is a sonnet. I'm just using that popular 14 line poem as an example because sonnet writing was all the rage.

Ginny, surely you do not think of me as wily. I thought it was Virgil, yes, but I really wasn't sure, and I like to get things right it I can. Anyhoo, thank you for the information. Glad to have it here. I expect we might need it later.

~Maryal

Ginny
May 3, 2006 - 10:06 am
Well Odysseus was known as the Wily Odysseus and HE was a hero, and so I think that fits you, too!

hahaha

Marni we did Odysseus in 1996 or the first thing in 1997 I think, it was the first Great Books read, and we did The Iliad last year, I think (it took us a year). Now we need the Aeneid and we'll be all set!

Mippy
May 3, 2006 - 11:13 am
Happy Birthday! to Youuuu ... dear Maryal

Didn't Marlowe write something appropriate for birthdays?
Aaahh ... it was already posted:

And I will make thee beds of roses,
Well, may your birthdays all be beds of roses, Dear Maryal!

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 11:17 am
Why thank you, Mippy, for the bed of roses and other comfortable presents. I surely could use one now. Back to the papers which don't show any chance of diminishing.

judywolfs
May 3, 2006 - 12:15 pm
Yikes. I finally caught up here. I must admit that I'm more than a little mystified by this book. I'm trying to read it "plain" - to find out what's so intriguing about Don Quioxite anyways. Well... first, I think the Don is 100% nuts. He's totally out of it. I think Sancho is dumb, but sane, and is hoping that maybe there might be a little something in it for him if he tags along with this madman. But I love & respect Marcela! There are so many wonderful posts here, and so much knowledge that I feel quite beyond my depth. JudyS

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 12:37 pm
Judy--Good to hear that you are caught up. I only recently caught up myself, to tell the truth. But our fearless other leader, Joan P, has been taken prisoner in Disney World; her feet are becoming numb from walking around all day, and my guess is that pretty soon she will discover that 8:30-10:00 is a somewhat longish day when there are five very young children. I sure hope they have lots of strollers.

I've read a little ahead, into chapter 13, and there you will find others who completely agree with you that our knight is unbalanced. He's fun though and seems to make friends (as well as enemies) easily.

judywolfs
May 3, 2006 - 12:52 pm
I adore DisneyWorld - I could easily spend weeks there, but no, not with a bunch of little kids! Kids can't take DisneyWorld for more than a few hours at a time.

Deems said "you will find others who completely agree with you that our knight is unbalanced. He's fun though and seems to make friends (as well as enemies) easily." I agree that he especially can make enemies easily, since he simply lets his delusion take over whenever he starts feeling "knightly" and suddenly something else, say an innocent windmill suddenly changes into a threatening enemy.

I'm very intrigued with his worship of the lovely non-existant girlfriend. He seems to actually pray to her, as though she were a goddess of an accepted religion. He even goes so far as to demand that others seek her out to more or less worship her. Hmmm... but, yes indeed - I find I might be on the verge of liking him. ~ JudyS

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 02:39 pm
Oh, no! SeniorNet has already discussed The Odyssey and The Iliad. I would have signed up in a flash. I probably never will read them on my own. I read a small portion of The Iliad when I was trying to come up with an answer for a question in Latin class. But I'll never read it on my own.

Well, I need lots of help with any classical and pastoral references in the Don. I'm counting on you experts!

-------------------

Maryal: I think those love poems and sonnets are so very romantic. Wouldn't it be wonderful if lovers today wrote poetry like this? Well....perhaps they do and I'm not aware of it. Personally, I did not luck out in this area.

I didn't know Raleigh wrote poetry. Actually, I don't know much about him at all except I think Elizabeth I had him executed. Also, he's on a brand of tobacco.?

hats
May 3, 2006 - 02:44 pm
Ginny, Maryal and Marni,

Thank you for explaining "The Golden Age."

Reading Don Q makes me think about imagination. I have never thought about imagination needing a boundary line. Now, while reading Don Q, I think a wild imagination is part of his trouble. Don Q's words and actions make me want to assess how to control the imagination. It's his books of chivalry which have led him to desire a Dulcinea. Dulcinea is such a strong desire that he has made her up, body and soul, in his imagination. At one time, his imagination of swords, shields and such must have went to far. Perhaps, the stresses of his life, the decline of his nobleness, led him to want to remain in the world of his imagination. This goal ultimately leads to his madness.

hats
May 3, 2006 - 02:47 pm
I love those romantic sonnets and poems too, like being serenaded under a window.

And if service plays a part
in making a bosom kind,
then those that I have rendered
will help to sway your mind.


This is soooo beautiful!

hats
May 3, 2006 - 02:56 pm
I tried to save space without deleting. Sorry.

Does anybody know about the life of a "Capuchin friar?"

Also, has anybody seen a rebec?

The footnote:"A precursor of the violin, mentioned frequently in pastoral novels. Did I miss it? What is a pastoral novel?

hats
May 3, 2006 - 03:17 pm
Grisotomo wants to be buried where he met Marcela. He also wants to be buried on the countryside "like a moor."

1. Why was Grisostomo living in the fields, dressing like a shepherd? Is it important that he wants to be buried like a Moor in the fields?

I think it is significant that Grisostomo wanted to be buried like a Moor in the fields. I just don't know the answer. I would like to know more about the Moors too please.

Éloïse De Pelteau
May 3, 2006 - 03:25 pm
The Don tires me because of his relentless delusions of one sort or another. I perked up when a 'real' woman appeared on the scene. I read here almost every day, but have not much to add to the wonderful posts. All I can say, is keep going, it's fun just to watch.

Deems
May 3, 2006 - 04:52 pm
Please do stick around Eloise and post whenever you feel moved. There are many more stories to come as the novel begins to take off. We're still in early days, you know.

Hats--Hello poetry lover! My daughter is one as well. She even goes to poetry readings. I go with her sometimes to hear novelists and nonfiction writers. We're lucky to live where there are many of these events.

Hats--I didn't know what a rebec was either, but I'm guessing that I've seen one or two in old paintings. I'll get you a basic definition of a pastoral novel, but generally, like the pastoral poem, it would deal with life in the country and have rural characters in it. As for the burial customs of Moors, I again would have to do some research. I suspect that Grisotomo wants to be buried in the Moorish way in the country because he wants to be in the area where his beloved Marcela roams about like a shepherdess.

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 08:27 pm
Hats: Here is everything you might ever have wanted to know about a "rebec" and more! Some wonderful pictures if you keep scrolling down.

According to the author, who made his own rebec, it is a precursor of the violin with origins in the middle east. It is "made with a dried gourd body, a tightened skin soundboard and a wooden neck. The preferred string material was twisted silk, though dried gut was also used."

Oh, my gosh, if you scroll all the way down to where the author has completed his instrument, you can LISTEN to his rebec by clicking on the mp3 link!!

http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html

Here's the link to the rebec music:

http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.mp3

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 08:51 pm
Here's info about a pastoral novel from the online Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Types of novel > Pastoral"

"Fiction that presents rural life as an idyllic condition, with exquisitely clean shepherdesses and sheep immune to foot-rot, is of very ancient descent. Longus' Daphnis and Chloe, written in Greek in the 2nd or 3rd century AD, was the remote progenitor of such Elizabethan pastoral romances as Sir Philip Sidney's Arcadia (1590) and Thomas Lodge's Rosalynde (1590), the source book for Shakespeare's As You Like It. The Paul et Virginie of Bernardin de St. Pierre (1787), which was immensely popular in its day, seems to spring less from the pastoral utopian convention than from the dawning Romanticism that saw in a state of nature only goodness and innocence. Still, the image of a rural Eden is a persistent one in Western culture, whatever the philosophy behind it, and there are elements of this vision even in D.H. Lawrence's Rainbow (1915) and, however improbable this may seem, in his Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928). The more realistic and ironic pictures of the pastoral life, with poverty and pig dung, beginning with George Crabbe's late-18th-century narrative poems, continuing in George Eliot, reaching sour fruition in Thomas Hardy, are usually the work of people who know the country well, while the rural idyll is properly a townsman's dream.

The increasing stresses of urban life make the country vision a theme still available to serious fiction, as even a work as sophisticated as Saul Bellow's Herzog (1964) seems to show. But, since Stella Gibbons' satire Cold Comfort Farm (1932), it has been difficult for any British novelist to take seriously pastoral lyricism."

http://wwwa.britannica.com/eb/article-51003

marni0308
May 3, 2006 - 09:57 pm
I have been interested in the history of dueling and noticed references to dueling and dueling codes in Don Quixote. I found some interesting information. It may help to explain why the Spanish government and church were down on books about chivalry in the Don's time. Here are some excerpts for anyone who might be interested:

"From the middle of the fifteenth century duelling over questions of honour increased so greatly, especially in the Romanic countries, that the Council of Trent was obliged to enact the severest penalties against it. It decreed that "the detestable custom of duelling which the Devil had originated, in order to bring about at the same time the ruin of the soul and the violent death of the body, shall be entirely uprooted from Christian soil" (Sess XXIV, De reform, c. xix). It pronounced the severest ecclesiastical penalties against those princes who should permit duelling between Christians in their territories. According to the council those who take part in a duel are ipso facto excommunicated, and if they are killed in the duel they are to be deprived of Christian burial. The seconds and all those who advised the duel or were present at it are also excommunicated."

"In 1608 an edict against the practice was issued by Henry IV of France. Whoever killed his opponent in a duel was to be punished with death; severe penalties were also enacted against the sending of a challenge and the acceptance of the same. Unfortunately transgressors against this law were generally pardoned. In 1626, during the reign of Henry's successor, Louis XIII, the laws against duelling were made more stringent and were strictly carried out. Notwithstanding these measures the custom of duelling increased alarmingly in France. The great number of French noblemen who fell in duels about the middle of the seventeenth century, is shown by the statement of the contemporary writer Theophile Raynaud that within thirty years more men of rank had been killed in duels than would have been needed to make up an entire army."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05184b.htm

"Duelling as a practice had its climax at the period towards the end of the 1500's and then small peaks during the early and mid- 1600's. Pre-war and post-war times seemed to be the periods conducive to dueling. But what prompted men to duel? Except for duels for fun, Billacois isolated five primary causes for duels: duels fought over women, by men belonging to rival clans or factions, over public office, following differences or legal cases concerning family or seigiorial inheritances, and because of rivalry over precedence or honorific distinctions. Typically the duel did not result from one isolated incident but as the culmination of the quarrels between two individuals or groups."

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/philosophy.html

"The 16th century brought with it the invention of many of the techniques that form the basis of fencing. Fencing began a rapid evolution as dueling was extremely popular during this time. Swordplay guilds sprung up in a multitude of countries from Germany to Italy. Many of these guilds taught such lethal techniques that the amount of noblemen killed in duels in the 16th century exceeded the amount killed in warfare!"

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~aus015/History.htm

"Dueling to avenge one's honor, however, has never been legalized, and its history has instead been marked by laws against it. The custom became popular in Europe after a famous rivalry between Francis I of France and King Charles V of Spain. When Francis declared war on Spain in 1528, abrogating a treaty between the two countries, Charles accused the French ruler of ungentlemanly conduct and was challenged by him to a duel. Although the duel did not take place because of the difficulty in making arrangements, the incident so influenced European manners that gentlemen everywhere thought themselves entitled to avenge supposed slights on their honor by similar challenges.

Dueling subsequently became particularly popular in France and occasioned so many deaths that King Henry IV declared (1602) in an edict that participation in a duel was punishable by death. "

http://internetproject.com/members/BurdanUSA/duel.htm

"It was under the rule of their Catholic Majesties of Spain that the duel first came under official ban, by the law of the city of Toledo in 1480. Curiously enough, it is shortly before this time that we find the first book on fencing, Treatise on Arms, by Diego de Valera, which was written between 1458 and 1471, and which marks the birth of fencing as a scientific art."

http://www.yorku.ca/fencing/history1.html

hats
May 4, 2006 - 12:15 am
Wow!! Maryal and Marni, thank you!

Maryal, don't worry about burial customs for the Moors. Who are the Moors? I always hear or read about the Moors, just didn't know the slightest thing about the Moors.

Boy, this is so interesting about the Pastoral poem and novel. This is from the article. "The rural idyll is properly a townsman's dream...a rural Eden."

I am glad to hear your daughter loves poetry too.

Eloise,

Don't leave. I really enjoy and learn from any comments you make.

1amparo
May 4, 2006 - 03:19 am
The Moors were from North Africa; Berber Muslins and ruled great parts of Spain from the vii to xiv century. They built the Alhambra in Granada, the Mezquita in Cordoba and many, many beautiful buildings all over Spain which were destroyed by Spanish “Catholic King Fernando & Queen Isabel” once the moors were thrown out of Spain.

In Valencia (my city) the Moors were defeated by the Knight El Cid Campeador: don Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar. and few times a year Valencia and its provinces conmemorate some battles titled: "Moors & Christians" everyone involved dressed up as such in those times.

Hannibal was a Moor

Amparo

hats
May 4, 2006 - 03:37 am
Amparo,

Thank you very much. I didn't know Hannibal was a Moor. Very interesting information. Thank you.

Deems
May 4, 2006 - 07:03 am
Good morning, faithful followers of Don Quixote (or Sancho if you are more attached to this sweet man)--

Well, goodness, Hats has answers to her questions thanks to marni and amparo.

I really enjoyed the information about rebecs and I listened to the music clip. It looks more like a violin that sounds like one, doesn't it? And it was the instrument I had a picture of in my mind because of all the paintings I have seen. Daughter who loves poetry is also a painter and the world's best guide to any art museum. Sometimes we stand in front of one painting for twenty minutes are so and she explains to me what's happening in it. She turns into a completely different person when she looks intently at a painting and talks about it. I love these trips.

And thank you amparo for the background on the Moors. They were cast out from Spain when the Hews were. Those who remained in Spain were "Moriscos," people who had at least outwardly converted to Christianity. Who knows what they secretly believed, but I'd be willing to guess that some who "converted" in order to stay in their homes continued to believe as they always had.

[I just looked up the information in my bio of Cervantes by William Byron, and the author says that many were secretly faithful to Islam. They spoke Arabic. Some lived in rich farming country and were reduced to what amounted to serfdom while other regions, they grew rich as innkeepers, shopkeepers, manufacturers, and artisans.] Shakespeare's Othello was a Moor.

The Jews who remained in Spain, having converted to Christianity, were "conversos." We will be hearing a good deal more both Moriscos and conversos in the novel.

The information on the outlawing of dueling in Spain was also useful. But think about how the custom of dueling lasted in the U.S. throughout our early colonial period. Wasn't it Aaron Burr who killed Alexander Hamilton in a duel?

Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 4, 2006 - 09:21 am
Good morning - from sunny (oh, sosunny!) Florida!

Took your advice, Maryal - baled out of Animal Kingdom at 5pm last night and came back here alone (with Bruce) to have an early dinner. T'was wonderfully peaceful and civilized. If you've ever had dinner with two one-year olds and 2 three-year olds - BOYS - you'll know what I'm talking about.

We planned to take a rest - and then get up and stroll the Boardwalk (we're all staying at the Boardwalk Villas) and get some ice cream. I feel asleep at 8 and didn't wake up until 7 this morning!!!!!!!!!!!

This morning we had an early breakfast with the princesses - I'm talking the " BIG" princesses - five of the big Six. (Can you name them? I can.) Lindsay was dressed in her Cinderella gown - only one long glove, lost the other. She was dumbstruck - wasn't expecting them to talk to her - Sleeping Beauty actually danced with her. Tons of great photos. Look out! This is something she'll remember for a long time.

Yes, I was glad to see a female too - I just have time to breeze through these really informative posts - can't wait until I have time to look closer at them. A ton of great stuff there. Thank you all!

I'm thinking that maybe all of these shepherds in the field are Moors, since they've been expelled from the cities and towns? Maybe that's why Marcela and Grisostomo are dressed like Moors? To blend in with the others?

At first I thought Marcela might be opting for the nunnery - wasn't that an option for girls who didn't marry? She wants to live in the woods with other shepherdesses.

But that doesn't quite fit - she'll live in the woods among both shepherds and shepherdesses. Might even have relations with the men, as long as marriage is not expected of her.

Now I'm thinking with all the references to the gods and goddesses, and the fact that her own MOTHER was marked with the sun and moon and stars - I'm thinking Marcela is the daughter of a goddess...and she is one who avoids men. Those are our clues. Now, who is she? Who was her mother?

There may be more clues in Chapters XIII and XIV - maybe the clues are to be found there. Does anyone have any idea what Cervantes is getting at in presenting this story to Quixote?

Have a great day, everyone = and don't forget the sunscreen!!!

ALF
May 4, 2006 - 03:16 pm
You know, I’ve put some pretty nasty stuff in my mouth over the years but can honestly say I have never eaten “goat.” Of course, there’s little that I haven’t drank out of but a horn—no ma’am, I can not recall partaking of drink from a horn. A shoe once, but nary a horn.

Thank you all for the explanations of the “Golden Age.” I quite thought that these were the years I was now experiencing and after this week I think the gold has tarnished. “Then all was peace, all friendship, all concord;” Cervantes tells us while Don muses over the acorns. (We are the nuts to try to make sense of this knight.)

The poor student-shepherd, Chrystostom wandered about and is to be buried in the fields. I hope poor Pearson doesn’t get buried “with great ceremony” next to Cinderella and be forced to listen to” It’s a Small World, After all,” throughout eternity. Have you returned yet, Joan or are you there forever?

Off for the entire evening for my course in "Understanding the N ight Sky." Perhaps I can lend some assistance to our weary knight-errants.

Deems
May 4, 2006 - 04:16 pm
Lessee--listening to "It's a Small World After All" for all of eternity or going with Andy to learn about The Night Sky.

Tough choice. Tough. Hard. To. Decide.

Just kidding. I hate that song. Ick. I can't name any of the princesses though Joan gave one of them away--Sleeping Beauty.

I think something went wrong with me. I never had the slightest interest in princesses; I never wanted to be one. Did have a dog when I was in high school, a collie/shepherd mix of some sort and her name was Princess. Can I count her Joan?

Anyone else with more princess names?

Who were those two little girls with the silly names? Snow White and Rose Red. Were either of them princesses?

How about the princess and the pea. She didn't even have a name, did she?

I don't suppose we can count Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret before the former became the present queen?

Was it a princess who kissed the frog who turned into Rumpelstilkskin?

Joan P--I'm just having fun. I'm really glad that you got some rest last night. Try to repeat the performance tonight.

~Maryal

Éloïse De Pelteau
May 4, 2006 - 06:15 pm
I can still recall the Spanish interior between Murcia and Madrid when a friend who was gallant enough to take me with my luggage to the train station in Murcia and while he was putting my luggage up on the shelf, the train started to move. There was only one stop and it was two hours away. He turned to me when the conductor asked him for his ticket: "do you have spare pesetas to lend me? I left my papers and my wallet back at the hotel", but I only had enough to get me to the airport.

He got off in the middle of nowhere at a whistle stop in 120 F. He waved and I waved back when the train started and all you could see behind him was the dry yellow Spanish countryside. I felt like I was watching a Western movie, the only thing missing was a horse and a ten gallon hat. I kept wondering how he would explain that to his wife when he eventually got back to Murcia. This episode in Spain remains in my memory as one of the funniest of all my travels.

Those 6 weeks in Granada and Murcia left me with fond memories.

1amparo
May 4, 2006 - 09:18 pm
” Moriscos & converses”. For many years there was another, most common name, associated with those whom chose to convert (or pretend to) to Christianity. A name that even now, if I hear it in relation to people I feel profoundly embarrassed and wish to disappear into the ground. Spain did terrible things in the name of the Church.

Alf. Post 347: “Drink from a horn”

Oh boy!, I remember being little and in lands of Quixote. Old people (old????) drinking from a horn; lips must not touch the horn, and I was given it to try… Let’s just say that everyone thought I was truly “Manchega”!! What fun! Mind you other well known drinking-vessels are “porron” (glass), “bota” (leather), “botijo” (earthenware). Hands up anyone who’s been to Spain and seen, or better still, drank from one of these … without lips touching the receptacle!

Here are some photos of these drinking vessels:

http://www.tienda.com/ceramics/pop/gl-01.html

Drinking vessels

http://www.ramonsa.com/botijos/index.html

Cheers!!

Amparo.

marni0308
May 4, 2006 - 09:39 pm
I've been going bonkers trying to figure out the reference of Marcela, looking up stuff on the web. There are a few goddesses and stories that seem like they could be related, but nothing exactly. Does Marcela have anything to do with the Greek goddess Artemis [aka Diana in Roman mythology]? And how about the story of Endymion?

Artemis - virgin goddess, goddess of the moon, the daughter of Zeus and Leto and the twin sister of Apollo. She loved roaming the mountain forests and uncultivated land with her nymphs.

"Artemis was a virgin goddess and a goddess of chastity,... As Artemis, she presided over childbirth, which may seem at odds with her being a virgin but the association goes back to her birth, for while she herself had been born pain free, her brother Apollo caused Leto great suffering. No sooner had she been born then Artemis served as midwife for the birth of Apollo and so became known as the protector and helper of women. Throughout the ages women have traditionally preyed to her to ease the hardship of childbirth....

As a youth she had a boyish sense of adventure and was fiercely independent. She requested and was granted from her father a bow and quiver of arrows similar to that of her brother Apollo, but Zeus, the concerned father, also gave her a band of nymph maidens and a pack of hounds to follow her. To aid her running and to ensure her chastity, he also gave her a short tunic so she could run forever through the wilderness. She came to protect all wildlife and animals, and any humans who asked for her aid, particular women who had been raped or victimized by men, in which cases she was quick to punish offenders.

Her punishment of men is recorded in legend. Actaecon, a hunter who spied on Artemis and her nymphs as they bathed nude in a forest pool, was turned into a stag and torn to pieces by his own hounds."

http://www.controverscial.com/Greek%20Mythology.htm#Artemis

"Endymion was a beautiful youth who fed his flock on Mount Latmos. One calm, clear night, Diana, the Moon, looked down and saw him sleeping. The cold heart of the virgin goddess was warmed by his surpassing beauty, and she came down to him, kissed him, and watched over him while he slept. Another story was that Jupiter bestowed on him the gift of perpetual youth united with perpetual sleep. Of one so gifted we can have but few adventures to record. Diana, it was said, took care that his fortunes should not suffer by his inactive life, for she made his flock increase, and guarded his sheep and lambs from the wild beasts.....We see in Endymion the young poet, his fancy and his heart seeking in vain for that which can satisfy them, finding his favorite hour in the quiet moonlight, and nursing there beneath the beams of the bright and silent witness the melancholy and the ardor which consumes him. The story suggests aspiring and poetic love, a life spent more in dreams than in reality, and an early and welcome death."

Endymion

ALF
May 5, 2006 - 05:19 am

These classes being offered here now only whet my appetite for more. This was a presentation by MOSI. (The Museum of Science and Industry, out of Tampa. ) This kid (42) lectured and blew me away with his knowledge. Naturally, Andy, he is the coordinator of their Astronomy education. I saw the craters on the moon, was able to identify some of the stars and planets and misidentify most of them. The history presentation was fascinating and I am going to visit their planetarium soon. The museum offers family programs, youth programs, as well as preschool programs. I must tell Ginny that MOSI is bringing the youngest representative assigned as Consul General in the history of Foreign Affairs of Greece to their Greek carnival. Perhaps she would like to take her class there on a field trip. The Consul General of Greece will be present at their MOSI CIRQLE (an acronym for the pursuit of Curiosity, Inquiry, Research, Question, Learn and Enrich.) Well, enough of space, back to the Earth's surface with Don.

Amparo
Wow, thank you for the URLs. It took me back to the 60’s when I used something that looked like the glass porron wine pitcher. However, it did not hold wine; we smoked the “good” stuff through it.

The Bota De Vino De 2 litres looks like the old anesthesia bags that pioneered us into the 20th century. 2 litres of wine—those guys really knew how to party.

Now, the Botijos I love! I would like one of those. In fact I have an old Indian clay vase that I could set it with. It is a wedding vase that I fell in love with in Arizona. I doubt if I’d be doing much traveling with it and the “boys”. It looks fragile.

I’m with you Maryal; princesses are deceptive, deceitful fodder that we offer to our young girls. If I was not born into royalty then WHY would I dream of ever being a Princess? (Unless, of course, I resembled the beautiful Grace Kelly.)
Marni Do you suppose that Grace studied for this part with the Prince? The story suggests aspiring and poetic love, a life spent more in dreams than in reality, and an early and welcome death."

Deems
May 5, 2006 - 10:42 am
Afternoon, all, and thank you for the drinking vessels, amparo and all the information on possible mythical models for Marcela, marni.

I'm taking the Quixote with me to my daughter's touch-up laser surgery this afternoon to read in the waiting room. Since she usually has to wait a while, I expect to finish the story of Marcela.

I'm going to guess that the story is Cervantes own, based no doubt on the many stories of shepherds and shepherdesses (or nymphs as they were also known). Cervantes was a mature writer when he came to this novel and he must have brought with him a lifetime's learning and reading.

Anyway, I'll try to check in tonight to see how you're all doing. When Joan P comes in (if she's not too sticky), perhaps she can fix the urls so they don't lengthen the page. I could do this but I don't seem to have editing abilities.

Depending on how the patient is feeling, back later.

~Maryal

Deems
May 5, 2006 - 07:16 pm
The patient did not have a good time after the surgery. This was the second laser operation to fine tune both eyes. The problem is that this time the eye nerve wasn't cut and therefore the after pain was such that she couldn't open her eyes. She's better now, but it's been a long several hours.

I think Joan P will be back this weekend. If she isn't we'll worry about that when the time comes. Meanwhile I have now read the next few chapters. The end of the story of Marcela as well as the beginning of the next adventure in which we discover that broken down old Rocinante still has some get up and go in him. Especially when there is a passel of pretty ponies nearby.

See you all tomorrow.

Maryal

marni0308
May 5, 2006 - 10:22 pm
Maryal: Sounds like your daughter (and you) went through quite an ordeal. I hope her eyes are better and she recovers quickly.

hats
May 6, 2006 - 12:04 am
Maryal,

I hope your daughter's eyes heal very quickly. You and her take care.

gumtree
May 6, 2006 - 01:23 am
I'm back from the forest but am way way behind with the reading and the posts. Will catch up as soon as I can but in the meantime I'll probably just be lurking and admiring the perspicacity of your insightful comments.

Pat H
May 6, 2006 - 06:50 am
I'm back--sorry for deserting you for a week. I was helping a sick friend get settled in Rehab, which somehow ate up my allotment of thinking time, and then I had to catch up in the book. Now I'm through chapter 14, and eager to go on. I'm definitely not giving up on the don. Not sure I'll come up with perspicacious, insightful comments for Gumtree, though.

Pat H
May 6, 2006 - 07:36 am
It seems to me that there is a change of tone with part two. The narrative is tauter, and moves along a little more swiftly. Why did Cervantes put in the Arabic author? Was it because he saw he was sneaking in some unacceptable comments? This way he could blame the "untrustworthy" Arab for anything that caused offence. And why stop a part spang in the middle of the hilarious battle between the don and the Basque? Was the book originally printed divided up into these parts?

Deems
May 6, 2006 - 11:24 am
Good afternoon, all. Daughter had a more or less sleepless night, got to sleep, woke up around 3:30, listened to a book on tape, fell back asleep somewhere around 5:00. The good new is that the awful pain has gone away and she thinks her right eye may be much improved. It takes days and weeks for sight to stabilize so she won't know for a while. Plus she has halos around everything and vision is a little blurry. This is standard for the procedure. Thanks to all for your good wishes.

Welcome back, Pat H. We have missed you, but it sounds like you have been doing valuable work. The mind's time for thinking does get absorbed in other ways.

As for why an Arab writer and why the multiple narrators, all I have is Grossman's footnote which says that having multiple narrators was a convention of the chivalric romance. Who knows when this sort of thing got started? Since many of the romances were pretty much modeled on each other though, it is exactly the sort of element Cervantes would want to keep in just as he sticks to having his knight formally knighted and having an adored lady that he goes about doing good for.

The Sancho Panza-Don Quixote duo fascinates me since it is the origin of so many pairs of men in fiction. Think of some of the more modern pairings, for example. Batman and Robin. The Lone Ranger and Tonto. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Huck and Jim. Huck and Tom. Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson. The Green Hornet and Kato. Robin Hood and Little John. And for all those of you who are Mystery fans--Inspector Morse and Lt. Lewis.

Lots of main characters and sidekicks. As we proceed in this novel, there will be many wonderful conversations between Quixote and Sancho Panza.

As we read the conclusion of the Marcela story, you will need to keep the conventions of courtly love firmly in mind. I think they are up in the heading. If you didn't know any of them you could reconstruct them from Don Quixote, I think.

~Maryal

JoanK
May 6, 2006 - 03:42 pm
Whatever has happened to sidekicks in movies? It used to be that every hero in movies had a sidekick. Some actors made a living playing sidekicks. Now, you rarely see them. Maybe too few people are reading the Don.

AMPARO, GUM, CAROLYN: if you're anywhere near Melbourne or Wellington, you missed a chance to hop a sailboat and sail to see Maryal, PatH, and I in Maryland. Just watched the Volvo Ocean (sailboat) race, which has come from down under to Baltimore/Annapolis. You wouldn't get me on one of those boats, going 35. 40 knots an hour. PatH is another story -- she has her sailing certificate (whatever they call it) so don't tell her about it. The boats (or is it ships? -- you can see I'm a landlubber) don't return, or she might be paying you a visit.

Joan Pearson
May 6, 2006 - 03:45 pm
We're baack! Sort of. Got in this afternoon and just beginning to exhale. What a week! Lots to catch up on. My sister just sent me this postcard from an art exhibit in New York -

Noi Volkov's Don Quixote (and do you see Mickey?)


PatH - Gum, I suspect that we will have have similar interruptions in the coming weeks. Just as long as everyone gets back on the horse, I think we'll be just fine! Will try to keep up with adding the questions from previous weeks in the header (towards the bottom) so you'll see some of the things already discussed while you were away. Please feel free to add your thoughts on previous chapters, no matter where we are in the discussion...

Pat, yes, I think that Cervantes did this - interrupted the action right in the middle of the fight and changed narrator, and as you pointed out, the tone. The voice now seems to be that of one of the expelled Moors (I'm not sure I'm using the right terminology here. The voice is not at all sympathetic to the Christian forces responsible for driving out his people frpm Spain. "Tauter" - yes, I see that too, less effusive with praise, more restrained.

Poor Susan, Maryal. Give her hugs for us - give her the care only a mother can give! Thank you for tending the shop. Thank all of you for your contributions - I haven't studied all the links yet, but there's so much helpful information here.

Marni! Great sleuthing! I have some stuff on Marcela/Diana which I'm sure you will appreciate. Will try to address Hat's question on the Golden Age, the Iron Age - and believe it or not, it ties in with your question - "Does Marcela have anything to do with the Greek goddess Artemis [aka Diana in Roman mythology]?

Need to rustle up some dinner - they don't feed you on airplanes any more, do they? If I don't fall asleep, will be back after that. I've missed you!

Joans! Joan Roberts, so happy that you are with us! JoanK, will be back after dinner to talk to you!

1amparo
May 6, 2006 - 05:41 pm
I love Daali as Quijote and Picasso as Sancho! Never seen it before. Fantastic!!!

Amparo

PS. Pat H post 359: Was the book originally printed divided up into these parts?

Yes.

hegeso
May 6, 2006 - 05:42 pm
Sorry, sorry, so sorry to be way behind with the book and also with the posts, but I am having a nasty flu.

I want to say something about the 'golden age'; perhaps somebody has already mentioned it, or it may be unimportant, but it reminds me of Ovidius: "Aurea prima sata'st aetas, quae vindice nullo Sine lege fidem rectumque colebat"

I don't know what Cervantes had in mind, but can imagine he must have been familiar with Ovidius. I hope I didn't misquote it, I just fished it out of memory.

Joan Pearson
May 6, 2006 - 06:44 pm
Amparo, it tickled me too. I'll send along a link to some of Noi Volkov's other works - I think these are glass - from the same exhibit.

Hegeso - poor baby. There's not much you can do about the flu, except drown it out, wash it out of your system with fluids - and rest and wait. We'll wait for you, have no worry.

You blew me away, quoting that bit from Latin! I had a footnote pointing me to the Greek, Hesiod's Five Ages of Man - He was a Greek poet born in 700 BCE .
"Hesiod serves as a major source for knowledge of Greek mythology, farming techniques, archaic Greek astronomy and ancient time-keeping.

Hesiod wrote a poem of some 800 verses, the Works and Days, which revolves around two general truths: labour is the universal lot of Man, but he who is willing to work will get by. Scholars have seen this work against a background of agrarian crisis in mainland Greece, which inspired a wave of documented colonisations in search of new land.

This work lays out the five Ages of Man, as well as containing advice and wisdom, prescribing a life of honest labour and attacking idleness and unjust judges (like those who decided in favour of Perses) as well as the practice of usury. It describes immortals who roam the earth watching over justice and injustice.3 The poem regards labor as the source of all good, in that both gods and men hate the idle, who resemble drones in a hive.4

...the first printed edition (editio princeps) of Works and Days, possibly at Milan, probably in 1493. (Doesn't it sound familiar? I'll bet Cervantes read it?)

A description of Hesiod's Five Ages" tells us that
The Golden Age - In classical mythology, this took place during the reign of Cronus. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not grow old, but died peacefully. Spring was eternal and people were fed on acorns from a great oak as well as wild fruits and honey that dripped from the trees. The spirits of those men who died were known as Aimones and were guides for the later ancient Greeks (who considered themselves to live in the later Iron Age.)

This race eventually died out when Prometheus (a Titan) gave the secret of fire to men. Zeus punished men, allowing Pandora to open her box which unleashed all evil in the mortal world.

Within sequences or cycles of eras, the golden age stands alongside the silver age and the iron age, and conditions can improve or decline according to one's conception of mythic progression.

[edit] Christianity In Christian tradition, the Golden Age is identified with Eden. It is considered to return during the reign of Christ which will never end.


THE IRON AGE is described as the age we are in now - beginning with the Dorian invasion - This is the current age where humans bicker and fight, and have to struggle to eke out their existence. Zeus will someday destroy this race of humans."


Hegeso quotes from Ovid - who followed Hesiod with the Latin version in his Metamorphoses - "He wrote on topics of love, abandoned women, and mythological transformations." I'm equally certain that Cervantes was familiar with Ovid's translation too!

So there IS a connection to mythology...do you remember that Grisostomo was an astrologer? Not an astronomer? And there is a connection as Marni found between Marcela and Diana. Let me go find some other interesting tidbit that is a tie-in with Islam (as if we don't have enough to take in) - and Mythology - AND our Marcela. I'm finding all of this fascinating, but I also think that if you don't, you can still enjoy the story without delving into the underpinnings - into what was going on with Cervantes when he wrote

Joan Pearson
May 6, 2006 - 07:02 pm
As if we aren't struggling enough to understand Cervantes' inspiration when creating Marcela - remember the Grisostomo (Chrysostom) was an astrologer - "He understood all about stars and what they are doing up in the sky, the sun and the moon and the eclipse, obscuring heavenly bodies."

Remember Marcela's mother with a "face like the sun and the moon."

Remember that the beautiful Marcela lives free in the fields with other shepherdesses. She lives in the fields, in the garb/guise of a Moor. Grisostomo does too. GAVE UP his sholarly writings, his Christmas carols, his plays for the feast of Corpus Christi to live in the fields and has requested a Moorish burial - in the fields, "a great big show" - not a Christian requiem rite...
The crescent moon and star is an internationally-recognized symbol of the faith of Islam.


The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years.

... There are also reports that the crescent moon and star were used to represent the Carthaginian goddess Tanit or the Greek goddess Diana.

The city of Byzantium (later known as Constantinople and Istanbul) adopted the crescent moon symbol. According to some reports, they chose it in honor of the goddess Diana. In any event, the crescent moon was featured on the city's flag even before the birth of Christ.

It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. For hundreds of years, the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole. Moon/Star/Islam/Diana

Joan Pearson
May 6, 2006 - 07:04 pm
So. Now what do you make of Marcela? What point is Cervantes making with this story? How does Don Quixote respond to her words when she appears defiant at the burial site?

Deems
May 6, 2006 - 07:46 pm
Welcome back, Joan P !!

I love the sculpture of Quixote and Sancho Panza. Did you notice that the animal they are riding is a hippopotamus (used to collect them) and that the hippo is swallowing an engine? I love these things. And yes, I saw Mickey too. I imagine your eyes went directly there!

I have lots to say about shepherds and shepherdesses and Marcela and courtly love, but I am way too tired tonight. I think the more immediate references we need here are not to Diana but to the traditions of courtly love.

It was traditional for the beloved lady to be rejecting of her lover. Cold as the moon. One glance of displeasure from her would be enough to chill him to the bone; one friendly glance would be enough inspiration for several more years of poetry, but more on that later.

Hope you had a good time in the happiest place on earth, etc., but I'm so glad to have you back with us.

~Maryal

Pat H
May 6, 2006 - 08:11 pm
Marcela exemplifies a problem I feel strongly about. What are a woman’s obligations when a man is attracted to her in spite of any actions on her part? She is beautiful, or attractive in some way, and a man falls in love with her. There seems to be a feeling that she is being unkind if she doesn’t respond to this. But why should she? She didn’t ask for it, didn’t encourage it, why should she be expected to welcome someone’s feelings just because they are there, unasked for? She has an absolute obligation not to lead a man on by flirting or encouraging him or making him think he has a chance when he doesn’t, but the line "you are being cruel because you don’t love me when I love you so much" is bunk.

I thought Marcela stated it beautifully. I’m interested that a writer of that time could see it that way.

Disclaimer: I have not personally had this problem, although I know women who have.

Pat H
May 6, 2006 - 08:35 pm
Joan P--I totally didn't notice that that was Dali and Picasso, but of course they are. How funny. I can see Dali as don Q, am less certain of Picasso as Panza.

marni0308
May 6, 2006 - 10:19 pm
JoanP: Welcome back! Thanks for the info about the crescent & star flag. Very interesting.

I thought Marcela was very admirable and noble when she gave her speech. Don Quixote admired her and, if I remember correctly, he decided to follow her and become her protector. (I'm forgetting things really fast these days. I just read this chapter several days ago.)

hats
May 6, 2006 - 11:57 pm
JoanP,

Welcome back!

Maryal,

I am glad "daughter" is improving. I care about all "poetry lovers."

hats
May 7, 2006 - 12:41 am
All of this wonderful information is making Don Q really lively and fascinating. I am going to review my chapters and these last few posts. Don't want to miss a bit of it.

gumtree
May 7, 2006 - 09:12 am
Joan K: Of all things to find mentioned along with DQ - the Volvo Round the World Ocean Race !!- They stopped here in Perth (Fremantle actually) about 8 or 10 weeks ago - wonderful adventurers all of them but they wouldn't get me on one of those boats either and certainly not in the huge iceberg ridden seas of the Great Southern Ocean. Son (keen yachtie) keeps us up to date with the latest - but he wouldn't sail that race either - one of his Lifetime Things to Do is to race in Antigua Week. He was there last year but only as a spectator for a day or two. The Volvo is into its 26 or 27th week - what a race! and the boats really are beautiful...

hats
May 7, 2006 - 02:12 pm
1. Is it significant that Grisostomo's last poem, "Song of Despair" was actually written by Cervantes some years before he wrote this novel? Is this why it doesn't quite fit here? Does Cervantes' poem of rejection seem personal?

I think Cerevantes' poem of rejection seems personal. The poem is about rejection and jealousy. Marcela didn't love Grisostomo. The poem's cries of pain are for someone else. The "Song of Despair" doesn't seem to fit. Is that right?

Deems
May 7, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Hats, sounds good to me. That long poem doesn't seem to be specifically about Grosostemo and Marcela, does it? There's not enough about love or rather rejected love in it.

Cervantes wouldn't be the first writer to use earlier material in a later work. I have a friend who keeps copies of short stories she has temporarily abandoned because sometimes when she returns to them she finds the seeds of something new. Wouldn't Cervantes have loved to have a word processor! Think how much easier the physical act of writing and preparing a manuscript for the press is now.

One wonders if Dickens would have doubled his output if he were writing now.

On second thought, Dickens and a number of other authors might very well now be writing for the movies. Cervantes, Shakespeare, Dickens and so many others were, in their own time, popular entertainers. They were not "classics" when they were working.

~Maryal

JoanK
May 7, 2006 - 05:33 pm
GUM: yes, the boats are beautiful, aren't they. They'll be nearby most of this week, but I probably won't get a chance to see them.

But it really makes me appreciate the internet all the more. I take for granted that we can talk to each other like this. But in the last century, the only way we could have met was if one of us risked our necks sailing for weeks in unbelievably dangerous conditions.

I'm always surprised, when I read history, at how much people did travel. We take Don and Sancho's journey for granted. We forget how then, even such a relatively short trip was, indeed, an adventure, even without the Don's imaginings.

JoanK
May 7, 2006 - 05:37 pm
HOORAH FOR CERVANTES! He really hits what is wrong with the tradition of courtly love right on the head!! I was surprised -- I didn't expect him to show such common sense in his day.

And we move on. Is the next chapter Rosenante's version of courtly love?

Pat H
May 7, 2006 - 05:48 pm
Did don Q know what he was doing?

In chapter 11, when don Q is explaining the golden age, etc., I once again felt that he sort of knew what he was doing, inserting himself into a bygone tradition. Rereading it, I’m not sure what I saw, but I think the impression was real.

hegeso
May 7, 2006 - 06:42 pm
Sorry, it took me 24 hours until I could recall Ovid's text.

Aurea prima sata'st aetas quae vindice nullo Sponte sua sine lege fidem rectumque colebat.

Pat H
May 7, 2006 - 06:53 pm
The power of Cervantes’ language

I have been too busy to read don Q in Spanish much, but I read this section (part of chapter 11, see my previous post) in Spanish to see if it changed my reaction (it didn’t), and I was strongly impressed with the power of the language. Amparo, what am I feeing? It’s not anything subtle; for me, reading Spanish is still partly a decoding exercise. Is the beauty of the language so strong that I can’t miss it, or what? All I know is that every time I read some of the Spanish, I get this feeling of "wow! that’s neat! Now I guess I have to read Marcela’s speech, since I thought it was pretty elegant and important in English.

sierraroseCA
May 7, 2006 - 07:13 pm
So may I join this discussion? Don Q. is portrayed as "being mad", but actually he is all about courtesy, love, and justice, and it's the society he lives in that is mad, just like our society. That's the way I've always felt about him. Notice how he addresses all women with courtesy, even if they are sluts. And he sees his job as a knight to right wrongs and bring justice where there is none, while all the time the people who are in the wrong and have ulterior motives laugh at him.

I think it was PatH who asked: "What are a woman’s obligations when a man is attracted to her in spite of any actions on her part? She is beautiful, or attractive in some way, and a man falls in love with her. There seems to be a feeling that she is being unkind if she doesn’t respond to this."

A woman is a human being, not a puppet on a string. She has no obligation whatsoever to respond to a man who falls in love with her if she hasn't led him astray. It is HIS problem, not HERS. And even if she flirted slightly, until she has spoken a promise, he has no claim on her in the least, just as she has no claim on him until a promise is made. In the Spanish language, as in other European languages, the language itself comes to a woman's aid, because there is the "formal" address, and the "informal" address, and until she tells a man he may use the "informal" address, which is a clear message that she wants a closer relationship, there can be no claim at all. English is very much lacking since we all adress everyone as "you" and there is no formal/informal, and I've always thought that made a mish-mash of male/female relationships because the messages are not clear between males and females. It's sort of like calling your boss "Mr. ______" and the boss calling his secretary "Miss ______". As soon as those titles are discarded, the relationship changes and boundaries become fuzzy. No wonder we have so much sexual harrassment.

Just my opinion.

By the way, I have not been here for a long time, but this is one of my favorite books. However, SN would once again not let me sign in under the other name I used which was "MountainGal"; so I've used a similar name so you all know who I am.

sierraroseCA
May 7, 2006 - 07:23 pm
I just read the Code of Chivalry for which the URL is posted on the title page, and under "The Art of Courtly Love" one of the rules is: "In practicing the solaces of love thou shalt not exceed the desires of they lover."

So if her desire is not to be a man's lover, even if he is smitten by her, the courtly thing for him to do is to leave her be and admire her from afar.

As a matter of fact, that is my understanding of courtly love---that a knight chose a lady fair who may have been married to someone else, but all his quests were dedicated to her in a chaste manner, and no sexual relationship was ever begun. That was the big NO-NO that Gueneviere and Lancelot committed.

Pat H
May 7, 2006 - 07:40 pm
SierraroseCA: Please join us--your input will be valuable. I am coming to love this work, and want to share comments with other fellow enthusiasts.

As you say, the change from formal to informal address is a useful convention that we don't have. I always cringe when some telemarketer adresses me by my first name, and I suspect that "tu" or "toi" or "du" wouldn't get them anywhere in the appropriate countries.

Deems
May 7, 2006 - 07:58 pm
sierrarose !! We are glad to have you with us and your remarks on courtly love are to the point. There were actual rules and certain cases were held in "Courts of Love." These were presided over by pretigious ladies. For example, Eleanor of Aquitaine, wife of King Louis VII of France and later wife of Henry II of England presided over such a court.

Courtly love was not about marriage. In 1174, a court precided over by the Countess of Champagne produced the following remarkable ruling about love:

"We declare and affirm. . .that love cannot extend its right over two married persons. For indeed lovers grant one another all things mutually and feely, whereas husband and wife are tied by their duty to submit their wills to each other and to refuse each other nothing."

Women laid down the law and it had nothing to do with marriage.

A good example of a courtly lover is Dante who glimpsed the fair Beatrice when he was about nine for the first time. He saw her only a few times after that. However, the briefest glimpse of Beatrice launches Dante into a joy bordering on religious ecstasy. Something within him transformed lust into adoration. This was essential to courtly love.

Courtly love is rooted in the inaccessibility of the beloved. It inspired the tragic tales of Tristan and Iseult and of Lancelot and Guinevere in the Arthurian romances.

There were also stages in courtly love in which the lovers might move a little closer together, step by step. A hand held, a conversation in private. The relationship was not supposed to be consumated sexually. Thus, as sierrarose reminds us, sexual intercourse was not part of the program. Lancelot and Guinevere went too far.

~Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 7, 2006 - 07:59 pm
SierraroseCA, I'd like to second Pat and Maryal's Welcome! Will wait for your permission de tutoiyer before calling you "Sierra" - (though I do like the sound of Sierrarose.)

You will fit right into our group as you are already are familiar with the book AND you bring an understanding of the Don to our merry band. Plus, it's a good time to come in, as we continue along the path into Part III beginning tomorrow.

I wonder if we will keep the "new" narrator/historian we have just met in Part II. He seems more sympathetic to the Moorish viewpoint - Our Don must share the stage with the Moors living in the woods tending the sheep and the goats. Both Marcela and Grisostomo have given up their ties to their Christian families and adopted that of the expelled Moors. It appears that Cervantes has used the narrator's voice to criticize the abuses and excesses of the Church - and escape indictment by the Inquisition in this way.

"That was the big NO-NO that Gueneviere and Lancelot committed" - hmm, yes, it was, but that was hundreds of years before - it seems that it is not uncommon now in the period in which Cervantes lives - the IRON AGE. Is Cervantes criticizing the loose morals of the women of his time by having his "mad" Don address them with respect? I'm thinking of the impact his portrayal of the independent Marcela on his readers. Or is he criticizing the men of his time - Weren't the familiar pastorals every man's fantasy - of the silent submissive female?

I'm trying to figure out whether Cervantes is actually a defender of women's rights, (as is his DON) - way ahead of his time - OR is he simply attacking the popular romance stories by jolting his readers with a twist on what they have come to expect in the novels of the day.

marni0308
May 7, 2006 - 08:31 pm
JoanK: I just loved your question: "Is the next chapter Rosenante's version of courtly love?" I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but of course that is exactly what it is! (Perhaps a horse's version isn't quite so chaste.) And Rocinante is treated just like Don Quixote has been treated, too!

I love the wording in my edition. I had to smile despite Rocinante's dire straits:

"It was then that Rocinante, seized with an inclination to solace himself with some of those skittish females, no sooner had them in the wind, than deviating from his natural disposition and accustomed deliberation, without asking leave of his lord and master, he went off at a small trot, to communicate his occasions to the objects of his desire. But they, it seems, more fond of their pasture, than of his addresses, received him so uncivilly with their hoofs and teeth, that in a twinkling, his girth was broke, his saddle kicked off, and he himself remained in the buff. [in the buff! hahaha]

"But, what he chiefly suffered was from the herders, who seeing violence offered to their mares, ran to their assistance with long staves, which they exercised upon him so unmercifully, that he fell prostrate to the ground, almost battered to death."

Poor Rocinante! He certainly is the horse of the Don!

And of course, when the Don went to rescue his horse, he "soon found himself stretched at the feet of Rocinante, who had not as yet been able to rise." Sancho joined them both on the ground shortly. He said, "...never could I believe such a thing of Rocinante, who, I always thought, was as chaste and sober a person as myself..."

Traude S
May 7, 2006 - 08:34 pm
Again I have fallen woefully behind, especially as regards the questions. And it is late in the day.

Not too late, though, to welcome you back, SIERRAROSE, and I do remember you from at least one past discussion. Good to see you here! And I agree with everything you said about the formal and informal address. I believe that in Cervantes' time 'love' was the attraction to and admiration of beauty and a longing, often from afar, for an idealization, with the knight making every effort imaginable to please the beloved.

In addition to Dante's Beatrice there's also Laura, Francesco Petrarca's inspiration, their love never fulfilled. (They too had caught sight of each other in a church in Avignon, France.) The subject of countless poems that made Petrarch famous, Laura was married (some sources say she had 11 children) and is believed to have died from the plague -- unless Petrarca merely invented her ...

Deems
May 7, 2006 - 08:49 pm
Grossman's translation of Rocinante's amorous adventure:

As luck and the devil, who is not always sleeping, would have it, grazing in that valley was a herd of Galician ponies tended by some drovers from Yanguas, whose custom it is to take a siesta with their animals in grassy, well-watered places and sites, and the spot where Don Quixote happened to find himself served the Yanguesans' purpose very well.

As it happened, Rocinante felt the desire to pleasure himself with the ladies, and as soon as he picked up their scent he abandoned his natural ways and customs, did not ask permission of his owner, broke into a brisk little trot, and went off to communicate his need to them. But the ponies, who apparently had more desire to graze than anything else, greeted him with hooves and teeth, so that in a short while his cinches broke and he was left naked, without a saddle.


There's also a parallel to courtly love here since it is the ladies who do the choosing!

Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 7, 2006 - 09:05 pm
Good night! You east-coasters are up late tonight! Since Joan K has asked the delicious question, "Is the next chapter Rosenante's version of courtly love?" - shall we proceed? I can't believe we are beginning Part III of the four parts in Volume I, can you?

Part III seems to pick up the same threads as Part II - doesn't it make you wonder why C. made the division here? (I have a hunch but will keep it to myself to see if it works out.)

I loved Sancho's comments after the incident - he hadn't "hobbled" Rocinante because he thought he was as "chaste and peaceful" as himself. The "chaste and peaceful" is Raffel's translation - I wonder how Grossman and other translators put it? (the comment is found 2-3 pages into the chapter when Sancho is wishing for a mustard plaster, before helping Rocinante to his feet) I was interested to hear these words coming from Sancho, rather than our Don. He's supposed to be the "chaste" one, isn't he?

Traude, to bed - don't worry about catching up with the questions, just catch up by reading up to Chapter XVI and you'll be fine!

marni0308
May 7, 2006 - 09:32 pm
JoanP: I typed the Smollett version of "chaste and peaceful" in my post #387 - last paragraph.

I had to do a double take on who was saying those words, too. Yup, it was Sancho.

I must get some sleep.

1amparo
May 7, 2006 - 11:23 pm
Marni post 387 & Deems post 389

…his girth was broke, his saddle kicked off, and he himself remained in the buff. [in the buff! hahaha]

…so that in a short while his cinches broke and he was left naked, without a saddle.


I have never heard the expression “in the buff” therefore cannot comment. But I hope it is as funny as Cervantes intended, because he did not use the expression “was left naked”. Cervantes used: “se le rompieron las cinchas y quedó sin silla, en pelota” . For those of you who do not know; “pelota” = ball... (and use your imagination) . That Spanish expression is not rude, therefore would, and does have us, Spaniards, holding our belly with laughter!.

"chaste and peaceful". Sancho says: "persona casta y tan pacifica como yo.... Good breed and calm (????)

Amparo

kidsal
May 7, 2006 - 11:54 pm
Was amazed today by a young 5th grade school teacher who told me she had never heard of Don Quixote. Am I wrong in believing that everyone who graduates from high school -- let alone college -- should know something about him -- even if they have never read the book??????

hats
May 8, 2006 - 01:50 am
Welcome SierraRose!! All of the posts are fascinating! I do find that Cerevantes' words are beautifully written. My reading is on fast forward. Someone wrote about the Don being their favorite knight. At the end of the book, I hope to make the same decision.

JoanP, I think Cerevantes is defending women through the words of the Don. The Don sees the horrors or injustices against women during the "The Iron Age." Part of the Don's quest concerns the miseries suffered by widows and maidens. I believe Cerevantes was also voicing his views about the sufferings of those living through the Inquisition.

"But now,in these our detestable times, no maiden is safe, even if she is hidden...despite all their seclusion, maidens are brought to ruin...of knights errant was instituted; to defend maidens, protect widows..." Orphans are also part of the Don's concern.

Traude, I am glad you are here. I always look forward to reading your posts along with the other posts.

Joan Pearson
May 8, 2006 - 07:19 am
Oh my, oh my, oh my - Cervantes is letting go in these chapters. He explains that it is Sidi, the Moorish historian who is so scrupulously recording the "important details" in these chapters. Bawdy, bawdy! Ampora, I don't know Spanish, but my kids played soccer and I heard the term "pelota" often enough to recognize its meaning. You and PatH are right - we miss a lot when we read "in the buff" in English! (in just means naked) We rely on you to tell it like it is!!! "Chaste"- Sancho sees himself as "chaste" - not sure what that means here. Can we have a better Spanish translation of that word please?

So, Hats, you see Cervantes critical of the way men view - and use - women in his time then? And sends off his knight to find the virginal Marcela and offer his protection from the pursuing males? He has his knight address abused women (prostitutes) as "Dona" - showing them the respect he thinks they ought to have? I loved the portrayal of the Asturian (??) Maritornes in Chapter XVI. I love the response of these girls/women to the Don's gallant address.

I KNOW you are going to have a good time with these two chapters - and look forward to hear the things that made YOU smile!

ps Kidsal, I'll bet that teacher went home and looked up "Don Quixote" after seeing the shocked expression on your face. I am so happy to be finally reading the whole thing - but can't imagine never having heard of Don Quixote! Where has she been? I wonder how many more teachers out there are in the same boat? I think I'll do an informal investigation today. I know one of my sons said that he has always wanted to read the whole thing. He's 35. How old was the fifth grade teacher?

gumtree
May 8, 2006 - 08:15 am
Have just about caught up with the book but have only skimmed the posts. With everyone raising such interesting aspects it will take me a while to get through it all - wonderful but a bit much for one bite.

My impression so far is that the Don and Sancho are opposites - not just fat and thin but in every way - they seem to complement each other with the Don so caught up with romance and flights of fancy and Sancho so down to earth using his commonsense at every turn. Are they just different sides of the same coin? Is Sancho becoming more supportive of the Don for his own sake (rather than the insula promise)? Anyway they seem to be settling down together - and they will need to if they are to be together for the rest of this story.

The perfect Marcela bothers me. She seems to be the personification of the Don's perception of the Knight-errant's perfect lady. But despite her arguments to the contrary is she really something of a tease? Did a tease ever admit that anything could be laid at her door? Can anyone be so perfect - beauteous in mind, body and soul? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I still have trouble with the comic aspects and though I can appreciate the humour my first take is always to read it at face value. I liked the passage dealing with Lancelot and read it seriously (as I think the Don intended his hearer to take it) and was so absorbed with impressions and relating them in my mind to readings of Mallory that I was brought up with a jolt when Senor Vivaldo and his companion were persuaded that the Don has lost his reason. - which no doubt he has - or so Cervantes will have us believe at this juncture.

Anyway am glad to be back reading along with everyone again.

sierraroseCA
May 8, 2006 - 08:26 am
It's a pleasure to be in discussion with a group like this. Thanks for the welcome!

Kidsal, I've discovered that what we "oldsters" consider classics (for good reason) has all too often been discarded by the newer educational systems, which is sad, because the classics are classics for a reason. They have lessons to teach mankind in all generations. They teach us that the past generations had some of the same problems and that there is nothing really new under the sun, and they sometimes give us good solutions to the problems mankind faces.

Joan Pearson said: "Cervantes criticizing the loose morals of the women of his time by having his "mad" Don address them with respect?" --- In a kind way he is criticizing them, I think, but he is also giving them a chance to think about what they are doing and reminding them that they can live up to a higher moral standard if they choose to.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that the Don and Sancho are symbolic for the two parts that go on in each and every one of us: The one being bold and fearless, often delusional, with a wild imagination, but who aims for higher justice even when he fails at doing so. The Don may sometimes be foolish, but he is never a phony and is always sincere.

Sancho on the other hand is the practical and cautious one, and the "let it be" one, and most often doesn't understand what the idealist Don is doing or why he's doing it.

What's interesting to me is that we all have both sides of those characteristics in us, but no matter which we use, life dishes out punishments and wounds anyhow, just like they did to both of them; and so we might as well live life fully, with courage and without fear like the Don, even if we are sometimes delusional and ignorant of all the facts. Even scientists don't have all the facts; it's the human condition. In fact, Sancho often gets the worst of the punishment after playing it "safe".

And what's even more interesting to me is that the Don sometimes comes out looking foolish and at the same time looking incredibly courageous, especially when we begin to understand the symbolism in the book. It's there whether or not Cervantes meant it to be. This book is as full of symbolism as the Bible is, and cannot be read just on the surface, even though it is written with humor, because being human is humorous and humanity's rules are humorous.

But one of the symbolic instances is when the Don fights the windmills. When I first read the book on the surface I thought it was a totally silly scene, but as I thought about it and read more about the meanings I began to realize that it's one of the GREAT scenes of literature because it shows the individual human trying to fight the GIANT systems of society. That's what the windmills symbolize. Sancho is telling him "You can't fight city hall", but the Don feels he must even if he is unhorsed. We all need to do that at times, even if we know we will lose the battle. The GIANT systems keep us enslaved. They are church, government, educational systems, medical systems, scientific systems, etc. which a society comes up with in order to function. And sometimes we MUST battle them because sometimes they are wrong, and we will get bruised and battered and unhorsed every time, and will have to pick ourselves up and go on with life in spite of all the bruises.

Just as an aside, I drive an old VW van names Rosinante. I named her that when she was new, and now she's an old nag of 16 years, battered and bruised just like the Don's Rosinante, and I still love her.

sierraroseCA
May 8, 2006 - 08:29 am
You said, " Are they just different sides of the same coin?" --- YUP, I think they are.

marni0308
May 8, 2006 - 08:44 am
sierraroseCA: I have a '73 VW convertible beetle that I use to drive around town in the summer. It's a clunker but it's so cute and uses so little gas. Everywhere I go in it, people wave and smile at the car. Enjoy your Rosinante! (Mine has no name - it's just "the bug.")

sierraroseCA
May 8, 2006 - 08:54 am
. . . and I have been through many adventures ourselves, and she's just as willfull as the Don's Rosinante. I love "the bug" too. LOL

Did you notice that the mares which Rosinante pursued are not interested in the same way Marcela was not interested?

I do believe most women value their freedom in the way that Marcela did, but most of us "settle" for the restrictions of marriage and children. Marcela did not, and that's what the men hold against her.

And with all the men who admired her and wanted her, what was she to do except reject them all? If she picked one all the others would be jealous, and it would just cause endless strife amongst them, as men are wont to do over beautiful women. It isn't easy to be beautiful, but most beautiful women don't have the common sense that Marcela had. I don't think she's a tease at all. She can't help what she is, but she seems to want freedom above all. Nothing wrong with that in my book. In my old age, after having been a wife and mother, that's sort of my philosophy too even though I don't have the problem of being beautiful, which I have at times thought is a blessing in disguise. LOL

hats
May 8, 2006 - 10:10 am
I find Marcela very interesting. Marcela is a wonderful role model for women. The shepherdess Marcela is courageous. She is fully aware of her identity. I see her as serene. Although she is called a "beast," and a "murderous," she remains true to herself. Her way of ignoring the men reminds me of what we would say as children "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Another old saying, maybe from literature is, to thine ownself be true. Marcela is secure in her state of being. I think her serenity is what drives the men like Grisostomo crazy.

Perhaps, Don Q's Dulcinea is purposely imaginary. This way he will never face rejection.

hats
May 8, 2006 - 10:41 am
Marcela is also called a "basilisk" by these tortured men. I looked up "basilisk" for a definition.

"European bestiaries and legends, a basilisk (from the Greek basiliskos, a little king, in Latin Regulus) is a legendary reptile reputed to be king of serpents and said to have the power of causing death by a single glance."

In Grisostomo's "Song of Despair," there are many gods and/or goddesses named. The names are:

1.Tantalus
2.Sisyphus
3.Tityus
4.Ixion
This is beyond my research ability. Can anyone tell me something about these names? Maybe it is not necessary to know the definitions or characteristics?

Deems
May 8, 2006 - 11:20 am
Grossman has "Sancho had not bothered to hobble Rocinante, certain that he knew him to be so meek and so little given to lustful thoughts that all the mares of the pastures of Cordoba could not tempt him to go astray."

Hats--Sisyphus was the man who had to push a heavy rock up a hill; as soon as he got it to the top, it rolled back again. Then he had to roll it back up the hill. For eternity. I forget what he was being punished for, some sin against the gods.

Tantalus was punished (again I forget the sin) by being chained with lovely fruit just above his head; he could see it but not reach it. I think there was also a drink of some kind which he could see but not reach. Maybe he was partially emersed in water, which he also could not reach. From his name we get words like "tantalizing."

The other two I can't help with without looking them up. Right now I have to get back to my exams. Grades need to go in tomorrow.

Celebrate, everyone, I turned in the grades for both plebe classes last night (thus the late hour, Joan P).

Maryal

hats
May 8, 2006 - 11:23 am
Maryal, thanks! Yippeee!!(about grading time).

Deems
May 8, 2006 - 11:25 am
Here's the scoop on Ixion, not quite as obscure as the other one:

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"In Greek legend, son either of the god Ares or of Phlegyas, king of the Lapiths in Thessaly. He murdered his father-in-law and could find no one to purify him until Zeus did so and admitted him as a guest to Olympus. Ixion abused his pardon by trying to seduce Zeus's wife Hera. Zeus substituted for her a cloud, by which Ixion became the father of the Centaurs. Zeus, to punish him, bound him on a fiery wheel, which rolled unceasingly through the air or, according to another tradition, in the underworld."

Maryal

Pat H
May 8, 2006 - 11:30 am
In a foonote, Raffel says that these are a "catalogue of mythological figures, all tortured by the gods. Tantalus, with fruit and water always out of reach; Sisyphus, having always to push a stone uphill; Tityus, with his regenerating liver eaten by vultures; and Ixion, eternally bound to a turning wheel." So I guess the poet is saying his pain is like all these punishments added together.

hats
May 8, 2006 - 11:34 am
Great. Thanks Maryal and PatH. Now I am going back and read that part of "The Song of Despair" again.

JoanK
May 8, 2006 - 06:37 pm
GUM: "I still have trouble with the comic aspects and though I can appreciate the humour my first take is always to read it at face value."

Thank you! That is my reaction too. Which translation are you reading?

Cervantes gets even bawdier in the next chapter. He was very respectful of Marcells, who is beautiful and pure, but very rude toward the servant girl, who is ugly and impure. (Do they go together in C's mind?) Never mind, the Don never fails in courtesy.

1amparo
May 8, 2006 - 07:58 pm
Joan P your post 395:

From Spanish dictionay (not Spanish - English);

Casta: "Caracteres que se transmiten por herencia". I would very much say it = Breed. and so, "buena casta" = good breed. Mala cast = bad breed.

Casto: "Honesto, puro, sin picardía ni sensualidad".

It seems to me some Cervantes translators had confused "casta" with "casto". Full stop!

Amparo

Pat H
May 8, 2006 - 08:10 pm
Before we get too far away, I’ll have a shot at tackling some of the questions for chapter XV.

Question1. Don Q regrets drawing his sword against the muledrivers because they weren’t ordained as knights, therefore it was against the laws of knighthood to attack them.

The muledrivers had a very good reason for driving Rocinante away from their mares. A horse is very valuable, and the mares’ offspring would be a source of income to their owners. But a foal sired by such a poor quality horse would be unlikely to be worth much, hence they would lose money by letting Rocinante stay. That doesn’t excuse their extreme brutality, though.

Are all the muledrivers we meet going to turn out to be thugs?

Pat H
May 8, 2006 - 08:22 pm
My dictionary defines casta as breed (of animals), lineage (of persons), kind, class (of things). Raffel translates it as "chaste".

marni0308
May 8, 2006 - 08:35 pm
I thought "the riotous squirmish in the bedchamber" was hysterical. It reminded me so much of scenes in Fielding's Tom Jones and Dumas' The Three Musketeers. I'm not sure what you call this kind of humor, but it has successfully made many laugh over centuries. It's like they copied Cervantes. The scene would be a terrifically funny one in a movie, but I've never heard of this particular scene before.

Pat H
May 8, 2006 - 08:39 pm
Question 4. Don Q addresses Sancho Panza at least twice as "brother" (Sancho hermano). That’s pretty significant, since Sancho is of a lower class. It indicates don Q is coming to feel affection and respect for Sancho.

Sancho starts addressing don Q as "your grace" (vuestra merced). I’m less certain what that indicates. It’s a courteous or respectful form of address, but Sancho already respected don Q.

1amparo
May 8, 2006 - 09:26 pm
It was used by a lower (not necessarily low) class when addressing a superior, well dressed stranger or servant to master/mistress, out of respect. Not unlikely today’s ma’am/sir… or when addressing someone we don’t know thus we give them the benefit of … respect?

“Vos” (its roots’ vuestra) it being old Spanish is still used in some Latin-American countries. Modern Spanish uses tú/usted.

And of course: “vuestra majestad” is still used by all when addressing the king/queen! Nearly forgot this one!!!

Amparo

kidsal
May 9, 2006 - 01:16 am
Joan -- I think the teacher is in her thirties -- has two boys in grade school.

hats
May 9, 2006 - 02:28 am
2. What does Quixote want his squire" to promise should they come across more "lowborn" attackers on the road? How does Sancho sidestep making this agreement with his master??

Quixote wants Sancho to promise that attackers who are "lowborn" will become the people whom Sancho will attack. Since Sancho is not a knight, he is not to harm men who have been dubbed knights. Sancho seems to have a problem with this request. The squire describes himself as a peaceable man. Sancho says he has forgiven all present, past and future pains which might come his way. There is no reason why he should become involved in squabbles and all out fighting. This leaves Quixote to wonder how in the world does Sancho expect to govern an island. There is always trouble when countries are conquered. In other words, war before peace.

gumtree
May 9, 2006 - 06:06 am
Joan K - Re the comedy in DQ - glad to know I have some company and that you're not rolling on the floor either. I'm reading the Grossman translation which at times I supplement by reading passages from Starkie or Motteux - I find they all enhance each other or at least help my reading..

My Spanish is virtually non existent so Spanish phrases in the posts can be a little bewildering though have managed to work through most of them with the aid of dictionaries.

And yes, I do think Marcella and the servant girl go together. What really bothers me about Marcela is that she is simply opting out - making like a shepherdess, living the bucolic life,yet still causing the young bloods to pine for her - and then she doesn't even have to make a living but has funds aplenty.- to me she is avoiding making a decision as to her future - avoiding life itself. Maybe she is an embryonic feminist doing her own thing but to my mind she should be taking it right up to them and doing something more positive than hiding out with the sheep.

It will probably be Friday before I begin this week's assignment - Oh for a quiet life!

Pat H
May 9, 2006 - 06:13 am


Toward the end of Chapter 15, page 85 in Raffel, don Q is describing the tribulations of Amadis "...he took up lodgings on Barren mountain--either for eight years or eight months--I'm not very good at counting." Numbers were not the don's thing.

Pat H
May 9, 2006 - 07:20 am
The "squirmish in the bedchamber" is a bit much for me too. It's a little like a Punch and Judy show, with a bunch of puppets running around hitting each other over the head, and the audience of children laughing uproariously whenever someone gets whacked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A147818

When I reread it before writing this post, it seemed funnier than the first time, I'm not quite sure why. It's got a certain outrageous symmetry to it.

Mippy
May 9, 2006 - 07:21 am
Gumtree ~
G'day ! I hope you won't mind some debate.

I don't think Marcella is hiding out with the sheep.
It seems to me that she is hiding from a marriage she doesn't want. In an age when most young women, from peasants to princesses, had to marry whomever the parents selected, Marcella was bold, was independent,
was brave.

Does anyone remember, even in the 20th century, having pressure from family to marry someone of a certain religion or ethnic group? I sure remember that occurring in high school, with respect to who a girl ought to date.
Some families were really strict -- that was in the 1950s. And it was even more strict before WW II, according to stories my relatives tell.

So I vote for Marcella to do her own thing -- Go Girl!

The big question for me is why did Cervantes write about such a bold woman?
When DQ hears about her, with interest, is it Cervantes, himself? Did he approve of independent women?

Joan Pearson
May 9, 2006 - 07:54 am
Good morning, Impossible Dreamers! Aren't we DELVING here this morning! So much good stuff - where to begin??? Yes, Pat H, that's a good idea...let's step back and take another look at Chapter XV and then step into the bawdy scene in Chapter XVI.

Marcela has got everyone's attention it seems. Mippy, you ask a super question. "Why did Cervantes write about such a bold woman? When DQ hears about her, with interest, is it Cervantes, himself? Did he approve of independent women?" What do you think?

"There was an article in yesterday's Washington Post that caught my attention...because it concerned Muslim women and their desire to spend time together in a sorority at the University of Maryland - not with men, but with one another. These women definitely are NOT teases! If no time to read the article, here are the highlights:
"Forget everything you thought you knew about Greek life. These women came curious about a new kind of sorority, one that could change stereotypes of Muslim women, one based on Islamic beliefs: no drinking, no socializing with men.

So they came to this new kind of rush, some covered head to toe in dark abayas , some with scarves pinned carefully around their heads and strappy four-inch heels, some with hair loose and jeans tight. Like so many Americans, most of these women don't fit into any easy cultural niche; they've been blending and balancing all their lives. There isn't, apparently, any other Islamic sorority or fraternity in the United States.

Imani Abdul-Haqq, who wanted to pledge a sorority in North Carolina. When Abdul-Haqq walked in with her hijab , Collins said, "everyone looked at her like she had three heads."

Collins and her daughter, who became Muslim several years ago, thought sororities' emphasis on volunteering and leadership would make Muslim women more visible and help dispel stereotypes."
Gum, I was under the impression that Marcela was living among the shepherdesses - no expenses necessary. As Mippy notes, she is avoiding marriage -nothing against a particular boy, just not interested in marriage in general? Hasn't she renounced her fortune. I don't see her as one of the idle rich.

I see her not so much a tease, Gum, but she was cruel to those who lost there hearts to her. Do you think she ever wants to be married? I wondered at first why she just didn't go into a convent if she wanted to get away from it all and preferred the company of women. But above all, she wants FREEDOM. I think that Cervantes has reached back to the Golden Age and fashioned her after Diana.

I'm thinking of the cruel treatment Rosinante received for being attracted to the mares too. Hats, great sleuthing - Marcela, the "basilisk," the reptile who had the power to cause death with a single glance. Well, she needed some sort of protection didn't she? This was before women carried "mace" to stave off undesirables.

Do you remember reading the implication that Marcela was cruel to her suitors? Did she take delight in turning them away? Is this the viewpoint of the rejected suitors, or was she just being firm in her attempt to discourage them? Sierra notes: "the mares are not interested in the same way Marcela was not interested?" Both Grisostomo and Rocinante acted on the assumption that the "maidens" would be interested only to suffer for their efforts.

PatH asks if all muledrivers are "thugs" - - They seem to be "lowborn" as Cervantes calls them. Note that Don Quixote is out searching for Marcela to offer his protection, the same way the muledrivers are trying to protect their disinterested mares. Not sure what to think of this. Wouldn't Don be more understanding of the muledrivers' position as protectors of maidens?

Hats, it would have been foolish for Sancho to promise the Don to fight all the "lowborn" they come upon - with few exceptions that's all they are meeting on this road through the countryside. I too thought Sancho handled himself quite well in avoiding to promise this. So the Don doesn't think Sancho would be strong enough to govern the newly discovered lands, too willing to overlook hostile behaviour? "There is always trouble when countries are conquered." WE all know that this is a great period of discovery for Spain - that much money and resources are being spend on the expeditions to the New World...at the expense of those living within Spain. Is this one of the reasons the Moors and the Jews have been expelled? I'm wondering how the discoveries affected Cervantes and this story he tells.

Joan Pearson
May 9, 2006 - 08:36 am
Gum, I was interested in your impression that the Don and Sancho are opposites - they certainly seem to be. "Different sides of the same coin." And when I read Sierra's post and can see "the Don and Sancho are symbolic for the two parts that go on in each and every one of us" - I really appreciated the ideas expressed on living life fully without fear. Yes, Sancho does get the worse punishment for playing it safe, doesn't he?

Perhaps we are seeing Don bring out the other side of Sancho - maybe we will see the Don respond to Sancho? PatH noticed the master referring to his servant as "Brother Panza" - and Sancho is suddenly referring to his master as "your grace"...thanks for your comments on this address, Amparo. It seems ludicrous for Sancho to begin to show respect for the Don now in his present condition, appearing ridiculous in the eyes of everyone else. UNLESS, he is buying into the story that he really is a knight errant worthy of such respect.

Perhaps the Don touches something in the "ladies" too - someone who treats them with the respect and deference they don't get elsewhere but long for in their hearts. JoanK, You made me pause in your comments on Cervantes bitter attitude towards the "damsels" who hang about the inns, but the fact that "his Don never fails in courtesy." Hmmmm...are we to view the Don's beliefs and attitudes as the opposite of his creator's?

By the way, I'm watching your humor meter - I'm willing to bet it is registering some of the dry wit here - rather than the Punch and Judy slapstick. Oh, but Punch and Judy were never this bawdy!

I smiled at many little things in the scene - beginning with the muledriver thinking of his "wonderfully punctual Maritornes" - the girl certainly has her virtues doesn't she?

Marni, a good question. What do we call this type of humor? I'll go for "bawdy" thinking that all bawdy humor is slapstick. It was funny - I can still see poor Sancho trying to get some shut eye and finding himself in bed with the foul-smelling maid - chaste and pure as he earlier described himself. Amparo, I still need help understanding what Cervantes meant...though I've read your post on "breeding" several times.)

And poor, poor Don - he's strongly tempted when he finds the beautifully dressed maiden in his arms!

Mippy, just curious - do you see Maritornes as a strong and independent creature?

ps. Kidsal, I'm hoping two things. That the teacher is an exception - and then, that this "exceptional teacher never teaches anyone near and dear to you!

Pat H
May 9, 2006 - 03:43 pm
I didn't post Wikipedia's article about Punch and Judy because, although it seemed quite informative, I'm never sure about their information. But when I quoted this bit to JoanK, she persuaded me to post it.

"Featuring, as it does, a deformed, child-murdering, wife-beating psychopath who commits appalling acts of violence and cruelty upon all those around him and escapes scot-free, it is greatly enjoyed by small children."

JoanK
May 9, 2006 - 05:09 pm
That pretty well sums Punch up.

JoanP asks an interesting question "I'm wondering how the discoveries (of the New World) affected Cervantes and this story he tells".

Since here in the East coast of the US we are descendants of the English settlers, we know a lot about how the New World affected England, but nothing about how it affected Spain. Probably at the level Cervantes was living very little. I only know that, although Spain took much gold from the New World, it was not used to build up its economy.

My humor meter is still low, although I did chuckle a few time.

1amparo
May 9, 2006 - 05:36 pm
"...he took up lodgings on Barren mountain--either for eight years or eight months--I'm not very good at counting."

From the original Spanish (printed 1605): …”no sé si ocho años o ocho meses; que no estoy muy bien en la cuenta:”

No estoy bien en la cuenta is an expression used even now when someone does not remember exactly something or other. A mathematician might use such words when having difficulty remembering in detail….

amparo

PS. And I am not defending Cervantes!

sierraroseCA
May 9, 2006 - 08:27 pm
any sort of translation of humor is extremely difficult, and even the best translators miss the mark because word play simply cannot be translated (as I think Amparo pointed out earlier). Every country has it's own unique funny bone, and what people in one country believe is funny often falls flat in the next.

So I think what one has to do with this particular book, since we are reading it in English and probably missing much of the word play, is to imagine the action. When I do that I see DonQ and Sancho much like Abbott and Costello, and it does tickle my funny bone---especially when they talk to each other. I imagine the way Don Q looks with that ragged armour, unshaven, unwashed, skinny, and addled. I see Rosinante with her ribs sticking out and hip bones showing. And I see Sancho as a short, fat, ragged farmer who began as a reluctant adventurer but is beginning to find that it's all a whole lot more interesting than being at home with the wife and kids, in spite of the punishment he is continually receiving.

Anyhow, even within the same culture humor is tricky. There is all sorts of humor: sarcastic humor, slapstick humor, political humor, ethnic humor, play-on-words humor, insulting humor, sophisticated humor, dry humor, sexual humor, sleazy humor, pantomine humor, etc., etc. While I find Abbott and Costello funny I find the Three Stooges intolerable. Don't know why, really, but the Stooges seem just plain stupid to me. My husband used to love them and couldn't understand why I would never crack a smile and just get irritable. Hahahah, he blamed it on my Germanic lack of humor. But of course that's nonsense, since I can laugh myself silly over many other things, and especially over the twists and turns of life in general even when they affect me personally.

But I do see the humor in DonQ if I go beyond the language and actually picture the situations like a movie would. I think what we are missing here is the particular Spanish sense of humor and word play. This book is probably a riot in the original language. I believe that because I have read other humorous books in their original languages, which fall totally flat in English, and vice versa, especially if there is a lot of word play in it that is simply untranslatable.

sierraroseCA
May 9, 2006 - 08:47 pm
"I don't think Marcella is hiding out with the sheep. "It seems to me that she is hiding from a marriage she doesn't want. In an age when most young women, from peasants to princesses, had to marry whomever the parents selected, Marcella was bold, was independent, was brave."

I agree. I think we often tend to forget that women in that day and age had very few choices: It was pretty much either marriage with a mate chosen by her parents, or the cloister. In neither was she free, especially in Spanish society of that time which had very strict social rules. Marcella has chosen freedom, and probably the only way to actually do that was to be with the shepherdesses. I think she's a fabulous female.

Joan mentioned a sorority of Islamic females. I can't help wondering why that would be allowed on a campus when probably a Christian sorority would not be. But be that as it may, I think women often like to spend time with other women, and men with other men, and I think the feminist movement ruined a lot of that sort of comeraderie by insisting on barging in where they were not wanted. And personally, I've often wondered what it would be like to live behind a veil, all covered from prying eyes. We in the West may see that as sort of a prison; but I think it can also be a sort of freedom to watch the world go by without being accosted. Not that I could get used to it or believe it's right for all women, but I can see how some women on this planet are not only used to it, but like it that way.

sierraroseCA
May 9, 2006 - 08:58 pm
impact that the discovery of the new world had on Spain is one called "Indian Givers". Can't recall the author right now, but I'm sure Amazon would know. The gold changed the economy of Spain, and then of all of Europe. And the potato from the Americas fed all of Europe for the first time to where the population literally exploded and many of them had nowhere to go because of the inheritance laws, and so ended up in the New World as settlers. Up to then Europeans had lived on grains, which are very volatile to weather conditions, and there was much famine. The potato had no such problems with the wet weather in Europe and peasants were well fed for the first time even if it was a limited diet. Fascinating book, to say the least.

marni0308
May 9, 2006 - 08:59 pm
I'm not usually a fan of the Three Stooges, either, and sometimes not even of Abbott and Costello. But every once in awhile, there can be something they do that is just so outrageous - or maybe I'm in just the right mood - that it makes me laugh. I think humor depends on your mood.

I remember when I saw the movie Mrs. Doubtfire with my mother and sister in the movie theater. We laughed so hard through the whole thing we could hardly breathe and nearly fell off of our seats. When my husband saw it, he barely cracked a smile. He couldn't understand how we could possibly have found it funny - like when Mrs. Doubtfire's (Robin Williams) fake breasts caught on fire when she (he) bent over the stove.

My son likes young comedies - like the ones that star Vince Vaughn and Owen Wilson. Most of that comedy leaves me cold - seems very juvenile. But then one will come along that catches my fancy, like Dodgeball. Like when the invalid ex-dodgeball coach (Rip Torn) threw wrenches at the dodgeball team for them to dodge as practice. He knocked some of them out. Now doesn't that sound like the stupidest thing in the world? How could that possibly be funny? But I was in hysterics along with my son.

So maybe I'm just in the right mood and the scenes and translation are just right, but I'm getting a real kick out of Don Quixote. I think one thing that helps is the many illustrations by Gustave Dore in my edition. They are just so wonderfully funny - brilliant! I find I keep going back to them and smiling.

marni0308
May 9, 2006 - 09:06 pm
Tobacco and chocolate were some other things brought back from the New World that had a huge impact on European culture and habits.

Joan Pearson
May 9, 2006 - 09:46 pm
in the garrett at the inn (be sure to press the little thingie in the bottom left corner to enlarge and see better. Envy you your book of illustrations, Marni!

Mañana, amigos!

marni0308
May 9, 2006 - 10:22 pm
Look at the rats scurrying away!

hats
May 10, 2006 - 05:45 am
Marni, I love your link!

3. Is the purpose of the riotous squirmish in the bedchamber strictly to entertain? Which scenes would have made Cervantes' readers laugh? What made you smile?

This whole chapter made me laugh. It is sooo funny! Anyway, I love Cerevantes' line

"And, as the old saying goes, the cat chased the rat, the rat chased the rope, the rope chased the stick:..."

This is utter chaos made totally funny. In a way, it's a romantic comedy.

Mippy
May 10, 2006 - 05:58 am
Actually, sometimes the humor goes over the top ... but so what!
Was it you, Marni, who said that she is at the right time in life to appreciate this?
Ought to search back, but in a bit of a rush here ...

Me, too -- the book is extraordinary and entertaining!
Cervantes no doubt knew he had to be entertaining to be a memorable author! What a smart guy!

sierraroseCA
May 10, 2006 - 07:50 am
. . . horrible smells is how that illustration makes my imagination go, besides the human chaos. It seems a bit over the top. Even in the next chapter when they throw up after drinking DonQ's magic potion, it's a bit much for me. But I've noticed that many men like that sort of over the top humor. Maybe females do too, but I confess that I like my humor more refined and subtle, and these are not some of my favorite chapters of the book.

Interesting thoughts about humor depending on "mood". Yes, I think that's true. It also depends on the company you are in, I think. I've noticed that often in a compatible group you get "caught up" in their laughter if they think something is funny, even if you wouldn't think it funny by yourself. Strange we are, we humans.

ALF
May 10, 2006 - 10:36 am
I'm sorry to interject here as I am still on Chapter X1V but yesterday I attended a course on Dali's Perspectives at the Appleton Museum. One of the reasons I opted for this trip was because of my ignorance of art and artists. Well, as I previewed Dali's illustrations I kept seeing Don Quixote. At first, I thought that it was my guilt because I have been absent for most of the week but as I continued my tour, there he was- again and again . The docent couldn't answer my question as to the importance of DQ to this particular artist. Rereading some of our text in Chapter XIII, I came upon this:
" say it is impossible that there could be a knight-errant without a lady, because to such it is as natural and proper to be in love as to the heavens to have stars:"
Is it possible due to Dali's profound love for Gala he undrstood Don's Q obsession with Dulcinea? Was it because like Don Q. he sought reality in a different manner?
This has bothered me all day and I wondered if any of you wold be able to shed some light on this for me. I promise I am off to read my assignment. (post-haste)

Joan Pearson
May 10, 2006 - 10:38 am
Andy, we wondered where you were! Not too much to catch up on...three chapters and they are short - but I just KNOW you will get a kick out of them. Yes, the Don is everywhere you look these days. When I was away at Disney, I found him with Sancho in the "It's a small world ride!" When I got home, my sister sent me this postcard after having attended an art exhibit. When you mention Dali and Quixote in the same breath, I just have to post this again - just for you!
I was interested to read your remark, Pat, that rereading the chapter on the attic scene at the inn was funnier the second time you read it. I felt the same thing! Why is that? Have any of you experienced that?

On the other hand, I wonder if the children who are so delighted with the slapstick in a Punch and Judy show would delight them again if they were to read it - or see it again and realize that Punch is a bad guy...

Sierra, I think this would make a good movie too - BUT some of the wry humor would be lost - and I like that better than the comic slapstick.

Mippy, I agree with what you said - Cervantes needs to be entertaining - to appeal to the lowest common denominator if his book is going to sell - if he is to get his message across.

"I only know that, although Spain took much gold from the New World, it was not used to build up its economy." JoanK, would you explain this comment? I'm puzzled as I was thinking that these new lands were in the Americas and that explorers like Columbus were disappointed to find the streets were not paved with gold as expected. . Sierra sees it as you do - "The gold changed the economy of Spain, and then of all of Europe" When did the gold from the New World change the economy? Does everyone know now at the beginning of the 16th century that if you are governor of one of these islands you are a rich man? This is what Sancho expects - I wondered when I read it if Cervantes knew it too. Marni, chocolate and tobacco would be considered as good as gold to many!

Sierra - the next scene following the squirmish in the bedchamber is probably more gross than the rollicking mixup in the bed. Now we will really get to to see if Cervantes treats these scenes as a cartoon. If the wreck of a man cleans up in following scenes with a full set of choppers, we'll know for sure. Poor guy - he sits on the bed with his beautiful princess in his arms and the next thing he wakes up without his teeth!

hats
May 10, 2006 - 10:46 am
JoanP, I love your Mickey Mouse.

I really have to block my mind of the violence. There is a lot of violence. Did Cerevantes involve the violence for the sake of men reading the book? Was it Cerevantes way of portraying the horrors of the Inquisition, maybe torture and such?

Maybe the beatings are just Don Q's imagination at play. In chapterXVII, Don Q thinks he is bleeding. Really, he is just sweating. Can we trust Don Q's descriptions of his battles with men?

marni0308
May 10, 2006 - 12:00 pm
Re: " Poor guy - he sits on the bed with his beautiful princess in his arms and the next thing he wakes up without his teeth!"

My edition doesn't say anything about him losing his teeth. His mouth bleeds; his face was "bathed in gore" but he doesn't lose any teeth.

Hats: I'm picturing the violence kind of like TV cartoon violence - like the coyote and the roadrunner - the coyote falls off a cliff and lands flattened as a pancake, but then pops up again and is himself.

Deems
May 10, 2006 - 12:15 pm
The violence and night-time romping reminds me of Chaucer. Some of his pilgrims told pretty bawdy tales. Remember Joan? Phyll? Who else was here for that one? Andy?

I'm not sure about this, but I think that many of the very popular romances that Cervantes is sending up had extremely explicit description of battle, the wounds received in battle, etc. etc. In other words, his audience would be expecting a wound or so every other page or so.

What I love are the conversations Don Quixote and Sancho Panza have. It seems that Cervantes came to know his characters by listening to them talk.

Am at work. Must go.

~Maryal

judywolfs
May 10, 2006 - 12:45 pm
I like the conversations between Don Quixote and Sancho much more than I like the action. The Don takes himself too seriously, and is quite pompous, while Sancho responds with down to earth quick-witted remarks. I can't even begin to see anything funny about the mayhem of the whole bedroom thing - and I think yes, it's too much like the three stooges, which wasn't at all funny to me, ever. I do appreciate the observations in other posts about humor being different in different cultures and different times, and of so much word play being lost in translation. M Marcela is far from being cruel. She is very brave. However - at that time, she might have been considered even more peculiar than our knight errant is. ~JudyS

Pat H
May 10, 2006 - 02:18 pm
Hats--"Maybe the beatings are just don Q's imagination at play...." post 438.

That's a really interesting thought, Hats. I wonder if we can take anything at all in this book at face value?

hats
May 10, 2006 - 02:39 pm
Pat H, those are my feelings exactly. This book leave me questioning whether I should laugh or cry.

Did anybody else feel that chapter XVII seemed like a repeat of an earlier adventure? Again, Don Q thinks the inn is a castle. Also, the Don escapes, without paying, and Sancho is thrown in a blanket up in the air. After reading this incident, I wonder if the Don purposely escapes so he won't need to fight the men who are not dubbed knights. It's awfully strange. He escapes for the second time.

The story is so similar to the first story.

JoanK
May 10, 2006 - 04:04 pm
I wondered if some of the difference in humor was due to different translations. I'm reading Grossman, so I decided to order a cheap used copy of Raffel from Amazon. I'm having a bit of an "adventure" with it.

I picked one and ordered it. Then I noticed a note that it was being shipped from Hawaii, and might take a couple of weeks when shipped to the mainland. So I started to cancel the order, but I got a note that the seller no longer had that book, and my order was cancelled. So I didn't cancel it. I didn't order another book either (I forget why).

A few days later, I got a charming e-mail saying my book was being mailed, and he hoped I would enjoy it, because it was his favorite book. The book hasn't come, and I started to check. Apparently it was mailed 4/21 with an expected arrival date May 1 to May 15. Maybe it's coming by canoe? Maybe it's not coming? Oh, the suspense.

JoanK
May 10, 2006 - 04:08 pm
I like the conversations between DQ and SP too. When Sancho said he would keep Dons secret til his death but he hoped it was soon: he hated to keep secrets and he was afraid the secret would spoil if kept too long, I really laughed.

Don has a wonderful way of getting Sancho into trouble, doesn't he. I suspect Sancho will get wilier at squirming out of it. At least I hope so.

Pat H
May 10, 2006 - 04:22 pm
Raffel says the muledriver "...gave the enamored knight such a terrible punch on his lean jaw that Don Quijote's mouth was swimming in blood...." This seems tobe a pretty good translation of the Spanish:

"...descargo tan terrible punada sobre las estrechas quijadas del enamorado caballero, que le bano toda la boca en sangre...." (sorry for no tilde on punada and bano and no accent on descargo and bano).

So he still has his teeth.

Traude S
May 10, 2006 - 08:40 pm
You are not alone, ALF, I haven't quite caught up either.

Same feeling here about the Don and the squire. Sancho is practical, down-to-earth, level-headed. The Don, the single-minded knight errant, was completely impractical and had his head in the clouds. They are a unit, a combined force. Each is necessary to the story.

May I hark back to HATS's # 402. Yes, the basilisk in classical mythology was variously described as a sea serpent, a lizard, or a dragon. Its evil breath or its eyes were said to cause instant death.

We spoke of Tantalus and Sisiphus when we discussed Edith Hamilton's Mythology in January of 2005.

Tantalus was a son of Zeus by a mortal woman. The gods honored him and allowed him to eat at their table and to taste the nectar and ambrosia, of which, except for him alone, none but the immortals could partake. They even came to his palace for a banquet and condescended to eat with him. This is how egregiously Tantalus offended them:

He had his only son Pelops killed, boiled in a large cauldron and served to the gods. We know his punishment: He had to stand in a pool of water in Hades, forever thirsty and hungry. When he bent down to drink, the water receded. Pears, pomegranates, rosy apples and sweet figs hung temptingly close on fruit trees above the pool. But every time he stretched out his hand, the wind tossed the branches way out of his reach.



Sisiphus was King of Corinth, and this is how he drew the wrath of Zeus upon himself.
One day he saw a mighty eagle more splendid than any mortal bird bearing a maiden to an island not far away. When the river god Asopus came to tell him that his daughter Aegina had been carried off and asked Sisiphus to help finding her, Sisiphus told him what he had seen.
As DEEMS already said, his punishment was to forever have to roll uphill a rock that forever rolled back.

The river god tried to rescue his daughter, but Zeus drove him away with thunderbolts. The name of the island was changed to Aegina in honor of the maiden. Her son Aeacus was the grandfather of Achilles, who was sometimes called Aeacides, descendant of Aeacus.

hats
May 11, 2006 - 01:12 am
Traude,

Thank you for adding more information about the mythological characters. I remember you leading a book discussion about Mythology. I missed it. I see you have mentioned the book and discussion.

I am going to look for Edith Hamilton's book at the library. Often, when reading a poem or a literary novel some Mythology is mentioned. Now it appears to me that this subject is very important and useful.

JoanK and Pat H,

I love the conversations the Don shares with Sancho. I think Sancho is funnier than the Don. Perhaps, this is because the Don carries the weight of the world on his shoulders. After all, he is a dubbed knight.

1amparo
May 11, 2006 - 03:59 am
He is a supreme, natural comedian and he is not aware of it. Wait till you hear him quote proverbs… left, right and centre! For someone illiterate he sure has a plethora of them…for every occasion, and enough to drive poor DQ bonkers and us crying for mercy with laughter!!

Amparo

hats
May 11, 2006 - 04:32 am
Amparo, I can't wait!

Phyll
May 11, 2006 - 06:47 am
I don't think we can judge the type or level of "humor" that Cervantes uses from our standpoint in our present time and location. Society in his day had rougher edges, I'm guessing. Because our world is "shrinking"---more people, more crowded cities and villages, etc., society has installed so many laws and restrictions in the name of "public decency" just to prevent chaos. I think our public behavior (generally) is more refined than it was in that time. And not just in Spain but in all countries. The lower classes were generally uneducated and therefore enjoyed a less refined, less inhibited, more bawdy lifestyle. Cervantes portrays that well, I think. It may offend us now because we see it from a 21st C. point of view but it would, as was suggested, have been expected in Cervantes' time.

Come to think of it, in video games, isn't violence and gore expected or the games aren't considered "cool"? Perhaps society hasn't changed all that much, after all.

Pat H
May 11, 2006 - 06:51 am
When I was comparing versions to see if the don's teeth were knocked out, I also looked at that very old book I have, which says it has left out "a few objectionable words and sentences, in no way necessary to the beauty and completeness of the work".

They left out the whole squirmish!

Don Q and Sancho come to the inn, are given the bed in the attic, and rubbed down to ease their wounds. At this point the don asks for the ingredients for the balm to complete the cure, and makes the medicine. When Sancho drinks the medicine, he experiences much rumbling and discomfort, but that's it. The horribly graphic description of his distress is left out, making the scene not nearly as funny. If you are going to go for coarse slapstick, use a broad brush. Then the two pack up and are on their way.

They also left out that great picture in the attic, with the rats scurrying away and the don's armor hanging from the ceiling like laundry, but they kept one of Sancho on his knees, his head held by the don, looking like he is about to throw up.

marni0308
May 11, 2006 - 08:36 am
I read the part where both the Don and Sancho had drunk of the potion and their systems let go. Yes, that was quite graphic. But the vomiting part reminded me of television today. I thought, "This is a scene from Saturday Night Live." The exact same thing happens there often. Or a movie like "Meet the Fockers." It seems we are going through a period again where vomiting and spitting out a mouthful of a drink into someone's face are acceptable humor considered to be funny. Is this what is known as "broad comedy"?

I found the spot where the Don loses his teeth - it's a bit later - in chapter 18 where the Don sees the flocks of sheep and thinks they're 2 armies battling each other because of all the dust. The Don rushed into the fray and began killing sheep and the herdsmen and shepherds stoned him. It was when a stone hit him in the mouth while he was drinking some of his potion that he lost some molars. At the same time, his pot of "balsam" was broken and 2 fingers were shattered.

Will the Don have any unbroken bones left in his body by the time we reach the end of the novel?

Joan Pearson
May 11, 2006 - 09:54 am
Hats - asks why so much violence. I was considering the time in which this was written, Hats. The Inquisition hung and burned heretics, but the kind of violence I'm seeing is more associated with combat - as Maryal notes. I see men fighting men with lances, swords slicing into flesh, punching, hurling stones... Cervantes had seen much of war fighting the Turks - He lost his left (or was it his right hand?) - well, he lost the use of it - at Lepanto. I found an article on the Crusades...and Lepanto.
"The Crusades were expeditions undertaken, in fulfillment of a solemn vow, to deliver the Holy Places from Mohammedan tyranny.

In reality the Crusades continued until the end of the seventeenth century, the crusade of in 1571.
Maybe these memories have become particularly sharp as his resentment towards his Church and the Inquisition grows. Are you detecting veiled resentment towards the Church in his portrayal of friars and others connected with the church?

Marni, that's how I see those scenes too - except our coyote/Quixote does not seem to "pop up as himself" again as quickly as before. I apologize - I mixed up his injuries following the squirmish with the shepherds in Chapter XVIII with those he received in the bedchamber when the muledriver thought he was taking his girl. Had the muledriver not been awake and alert awaiting his punctual visit, I can't help but think where that scene may have ended! Did you see the Don at all tempted? I suppose any normal male might have weakened - but Don is so grounded in his vow to serve only Dulcinea...I wonder if he remembered what happened when he finally came to?

Pat H
May 11, 2006 - 10:01 am
Reading the scene about the potion both with and without the cruder parts made me realize that the crudity is necessary to Cervantes’ humor. When I read it without the cruder bits, the jokes that were left didn’t seem funny. I then reread Raffel, and it seemed funny again, in fact, once more, funnier than the first time. The crudity is in there not just for itself, but to contrast with and set off the more subtle or high-minded humor.

I also realized what a carefully structured scene it is, building up a series of peaks, each taller than the last, alternating crude and less crude. Don Q makes his awful brew, drinks it, and is promptly sick. But then, he takes a nap, and , lo and behold, he’s cured! Sancho asks for some and drinks it. The stomach of a poor man has had to get used to all kinds of bad stuff, so he is able to retain the potion and let its poison really work. As he is writhing in agony, the don comes out with his lofty explanation that his noble medicine only works for noble knights. That’s amusing, but it’s cut short by Sancho, who climactically lets loose at both ends. Perfect rhythm and timing.

For me the funniest part isn’t the crudity, but the crudity makes ithe rest funnier.

Joan Pearson
May 11, 2006 - 10:30 am
As Hats notes, our dynamic duo does escape again - with Sancho taking the brunt of the punishment. Watch Sancho. When they started out on the road, he merely watched his master take on the windmills - and gradually became persuaded that perhaps they were really giants, transformed by the evil Moorish enchanter.

He seems to be more involved now, sticking up for his master, throwing himself into battle...as if he does believe in El Quixote's knight-errantry. Do you see him less apt to give up and turn back for home now? I'm still wondering why Cervantes decided to make the division between Part II and Part III. Is it because the line between master and servant is becoming less distinct in Part III?- Sancho is coming into his own, getting more familiar, speaking up, talking back to his master? Traudee, as you read these chapters in Part III for the first time, will you watch Sancho closely and see if you agree with any of this?

Oh, I believe that the difference in humor is due more to the different translations, JoanK. There's the bedlam in the bedchamber and then conversation that follows. (I do look forward to learning whether the slow-boat delivery makes a noticeable difference on your humor meter. It's ALMOST May 15!) PatH...can't believe some translators left out whole scenes! Guess they didn't appreciate them either! You make a very, very good point - the crudity is necessary to Cervantes’ humor.

It occurs to me that Cervantes may have wanted to reach his male readers- (were women even reading at this time?) - but here's something else I thought about while reading your posts...Phyll - I agree with what you say about the difference in time and lifestyle accounting for the difference in reaction to certain kinds of humor. But MAYBE Cervantes wanted his readers to see beyond the violence - to question poor Sancho's beatings... and to turn their attention to the conversations between Don and Sancho. I'll bet they related more to Sancho than to "serious, pompous"Quixote, as Judy characterizes him. They may have laughed uproariously at some of the scenes, but at this point they must be wondering what it is that makes poor Sancho put up with such punishment. The conversations must be of interest to his early readers too. Is this Cervantes' way of getting his readers' attention? Amparo, it is just as easy to read what "a supreme natural comedian" has to say as it is to watch the slapstick I would think - then and now! I'm looking forward to his proverbial misquotes too!

Again, I think Pat H makes an excellent point - the crudity plays an important part here...

Deems
May 11, 2006 - 10:38 am
O my, how texts were edited in the past to make them more "beautiful" and acceptable and "pure." For years now the bawdier lines in Romeo and Juliet have been taken out of editions for high schoolers. They of course are never subjected to sexual jokes or crudity in their own lives!

Pat H, Who is the editor/translator of that old version that says they left out "a few objectionable words and sentences, in no way necessary to the beauty and completeness of the work."

What a ridiculous statement! If you take something out of a text, you are by definition making it somewhat less "complete" than it was before you started deciding what is appropriate for people to read.

I wonder if that version wasn't published during Victorian times when ladies would have been too susceptible to fainting if they read about someone vomiting or losing teeth? Of course, the dear Queen herself had some, what, 30?? , children so she must have known something of the sexual nature of her husband and herself. What a schizo period that was, the Victorian period. Pretty lacy valentines, incredibly overdecorated furniture, pottery, fairies, you name it, and lots and lots of pornography. And Jack the Ripper.

Anyhoo, the Don loses those molars later in the incident with the sheep, who are "actually" opposing armies though Sancho can't see them. I'm guessing though that he enjoyed listening to Quixote's fulsome descriptions.

Dentist today. Everyone think of me. This decay is under a crown and he has to go through the gum. Something about lasers.

Susan is feeling much better though her eyes are still sore. The second time around, the pain is worse.

~Maryal

marni0308
May 11, 2006 - 12:06 pm
JoanP: Thanks for the link to the Crusades info. I'm copying and pasting just the part about the Battle of Lepanto below in case some readers didn't make it all the way to the bottom of the page. Here goes:

"When, in 1571, the Island of Cyprus was threatened by the Ottomans, who cruelly massacred the garrisons of Famagusta and Nicosia, these towns having surrendered on stipulated terms, Pope Pius V succeeded in forming a league of maritime powers against Sultan Selim, and secured the co-operation of Philip II by granting him the right to tithes for the crusade, while he himself equipped some galleys. On 7 October, 1571, a Christian fleet of 200 galleys, carrying 50,000 men under the command of Don Juan of Austria, met the Ottoman fleet in the Straits of Lepanto, destroyed it completely, and liberated thousands of Christians. This expedition was in the nature of a crusade. The pope, considering that the victory had saved Christendom, by way of commemorating it instituted the feast of the Holy Rosary, which is celebrated on the first Sunday of October."

I remember being shocked when I first learned that the Pope had his own galleys. Guess who rowed them? Slaves.

Deems
May 11, 2006 - 03:58 pm
Joan P--would it be possible to put up the graphic of the post card your sister sent you of Don Q and Sancho P mounted on the hippo in the heading? I just love it and pretty soon it's going to scroll on off the page.

I'm not sure why I'm so fond of it, but it hits my funny bone.

JoanK
May 11, 2006 - 04:43 pm
JOANP: as our Shakespearian, how similar is Cervantes humor to some of Shakespeare's? The misuse of words and phrases, bopping on the head, and crudity?

I admit my humor meter was low at the scene of Sancho and the potion. Since I'm just recovering from one of the worse stomach flus I've ever had, it sounded too much like me! I hope when I feel better, I'll think it's funny.

But DQ watching him appear and disappear over that wall as he's being tossed in the is funny. Although my stomach tells me if he had anything left, its gone now.

marni0308
May 11, 2006 - 08:52 pm
I was just reading about the Moors in Spain in Wikipedia. Pretty interesting. Someone may have already put this info out here, but I can't remember. Here's some info about the Moors being pushed out of central Spain:

"In 1212 a coalition of Christian kings under the leadership of Alfonso VIII of Castile drove the muslims from Central Spain. However the Moorish Kingdom of Granada thrived for three more centuries in the southern Iberian peninsula. This kingdom is known in modern time for architectural gems such as the Alhambra. On January 2, 1492, the leader of the last Muslim stronghold in Granada surrendered to armies of a recently united Christian Spain. The remaining Muslim were forced to leave Spain or convert to Christianity. These descendants of the Muslims were named moriscos. They were an important portion of the peasants in some territories, like Aragon, Valencia or Andalusia, until their systematic expulsion in the years from 1609 to 1614. Henri Lapeyre has estimated that this affected 300,000 out of a total of 8 million inhabitants at the time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

Events, opinions, politics, and religious beliefs leading to their systematic expulsion would have been very important in Cervantes' lifetime.

Pat H
May 11, 2006 - 10:33 pm
Deems—yes, I’m sure my book (actually JoanK’s and mine) with the omissions is Victorian, probably 1890s, but it’s hard to pin down exactly. Dore’s illustrations came out in 1862, so that’s the early limit. A previous owner has signed it, in gorgeous handwriting, Thomas M. Owen October 27, 1898, and I’m guessing it was new then. There is neither publication date nor copyright date printed in the book.

I’m also guessing it was the editor, listed as F. W. Clark, MA, fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, who did the censoring. The translator is only mentioned in a footnote to a historical forward: "The English text of ‘Don Quixote’ adopted in this edition is that of Jarvis, with occasional corrections from Motteaux’ translation. A few objectionable words and sentences, in no way necessary to the beauty and completeness of the work, have been omitted." That sounds like the editor did it.

I also wonder if maybe it was pirated, since it’s so coy about details, but if so, they did a good job on the illustrations, which are very clear.

1amparo
May 11, 2006 - 11:02 pm
Was known as "El manco de Lepanto". Was unable to use his left hand.

Amparo.

Joan Pearson
May 12, 2006 - 06:37 am
Good morning, Dreamers,

Cervantes has gone over the top in these two chapters, hasn't he? JoanK, I can't remember Shakespeare having gone this far in any of his plays. But then, Shakespeare's art is theatrical. You couldn't stage most of Cervantes crudities. The play on words, the often "broad comedy" yes, like Cervantes - but what you see is what you get with Shakespeare.

With Cervantes I'm constantly looking for the meaning behind the words, for reasons WHY he is so graphic. You can believe Shakespeare - he's obvious in his intent. Cervantes, well, the jury is still out, but I don't think he always says what he means. He seems to mean something else, even in his comedy.

Most of Shakespeare's comedies contain at least one fool that grosses you out. Their sole purpose seems to be to entertain, to make the audience laugh. I'm not sure yet about Cervantes - don't you wonder if the grossness is there as a contrast to the knight's gallantry?

They both seem to have an exquisite understanding of human nature - human weakness and self-deception. And they both understand the "lowborn" as well as the aristocracy. Not sure now they compare on their treatment of females - not sure of Cervantes. He's made several comments that indicate a poor opinion of most women - did you notice that?

The love stories of the comedies are similar - the love at first sight, the deceptions and misunderstandings...all for comic effect. Does art reflect nature? Makes you wonder if folks really did fall in love back then.

I think you can feel the spiritual throughout Quixote - not so in Shakespeare. Though much of what you hear is criticism of his Church, the Old Christian comes through.

I can feel sadness in Cervantes - not in Shakespeare, although Lear always gets to me and I feel something some of Shakespeare's sadness there. Maybe that's imagined, not sure. I think it's interesting that Lear was performed for the first time at the same time Quixote was first published.

ps Maryal - look at the revolving "cube" in the top left corner - while you were sleeping, our PatW slipped the Nol Volkov Quixote - Sancho, Mickie Mouse and Dali into the mix. Thanks, Pat!

Joan Pearson
May 12, 2006 - 06:38 am
Thank you so much, Marni - we've touched on the expulsion of the Moors in Spain, but not in such detail. Yes, I agree this would have been important - chaotic in Cervantes' lifetime. I've been wondering about its effect on Cervantes himself. Maybe it's because he has chosen a Moorish narrator for Parts II and III...but don't you sense a sympathy for the plight of the Moors and a bitterness towards his Church - in spite of his constant repetition that he is a Christian. He has fought to oust the Muslims at Lepanto - lost his LEFT hand (thank you, Amparo). Let's hope that he was right handed to start with. In this case, the sword was not mightier than the pen! I wonder if he isn't reliving some of the Lepanto battle when he sees the innocent defenseless ewes as armies, only to learn later they are not the enemy he had perceived?

The balm fascinates me. It worked so magically on Quixote, but oh, poor Sancho! Yesterday I babysit two little grandsons. Riley (3) fell in the playground and skinned his knee. I held my breath as to how he'd react to this injury, without mommy present. He ran up to me and asked me to kiss it. I did...he pointed to another spot that was hurting; I kissed that too. All better - no more hurting - back up the slide. Now how did that happen? Did he believe so completely that kissing was a cure that his belief actually took away pain? Is that what happened in our story. Was Sancho skeptical that the balm would work...and the Don a complete believer - like Riley? What is Cervantes saying here?

PatH, I understand why the translator left out some of the bawdy scenes in the garret with Maritornes - curious to know how the details of Sancho's physical distress were handled?

Pat H
May 12, 2006 - 07:31 am
Joan P--they are mostly left out. Sancho drinks the potion, feels terrible rumblings, complains to the don, who gives his speech about the potion being for knights, and that's it.

I'll be interested to see what he does with the battle with the sheep.

marni0308
May 12, 2006 - 08:10 am
Wait til you get to the next chapter when nature calls to Sancho while he is standing next to the Don on Rocinante during the night! I wonder what your editions may leave in or take out.

Mippy
May 12, 2006 - 09:05 am
Ok, Marni, nicely put: nature calls.
My opinion is ... yuck.
However, as was posted above, perhaps the male readers for whom Cervantes was writing are more enthusiastic about what we might call "bathroom" humor. I just read fast, and went on to the next section.

marni0308
May 12, 2006 - 10:27 am
Bathroom humor is alive and well in my family. It amazes me how my brothers, brothers-in-law, husband, and son get such a chuckle out of it - even my teenage nieces. You should see the jokes and cartoons they send back and forth to each other over the internet - actually, no, you shouldn't see!

JoanK
May 12, 2006 - 01:59 pm
Actually, I admit I had to laugh when the Don and Sancho each baptized the other. I remember age 8 as the heyday of bathroom humor. Maybe I never grew past that. (Or maybe I'm entering my second childhood).

JOANP: thanks for such a thoughtful answer to my question. What you see is what you get with Shakespeare, but Cervantes always seems to mean something else. Fascinating! I'm beginning to feel that too.

Deems
May 12, 2006 - 02:10 pm
Thank you, Joan P. Thank you, Pat W. Now I can see that wonderful sculpture in the picture cube. I just love it. How much do suppose I'm going to have to come up with to buy it?

It's in a museum?

Maybe I can steal it. Hold it for ransom, toss it in a blanket.

I have a former student, then my mentee, and now a colleague teaching with us who occasionally sends out, to a select list of men only, certain jokes which he finds who knows where.

One day I was standing outside his office talking with him when another of our young officers stuck his head in and said that the joke of the day was really funny.

What joke of the day, I asked. He said he would send it to me if I really wanted him to. And I said please do.

It turned out to be not one, but several, jokes about Viagra. The first one I found funny, the second sort of a chuckler, but the remainder were just dopey. The guys found them hillarious.

OK, these are both fairly young men, but in both cases, they have children. It's my guess that they will find the same stuff funny when they are sixty. In fact, the original person said he always emailed them to his Dad (who, after all, is in the Viagra group).

I think it's a guy humor thing. I don't find the various vomitings and other expulsions particularly gross or offensive, just not funny.

I did think it was funny when poor Sancho was tossed in the blanket with Quixote outside explaining to himself why he couldn't help. That's not exactly sophisticated humor but I still thought it funny.

~Maryal

JoanK
May 12, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Maybe some women are naturally vulgar. When I worked, I shared an office with a young man. Our boss, always considerate of my feelings, would poke his had in and say to my roommate "psst, come here", take him out and tell him the joke of the day. Until one day, roomie told him "I already know those jokes -- Joan sends them to me". Boss poked his head in redfaced "How do you know them?" "Simple: the women's joke network is faster than the men's".

But I admit, they weren't the really vulgar ones.

1amparo
May 12, 2006 - 05:32 pm
the sword was not mightier than the pen! Indeed!

Later on you will find Cervantes words: ”...La pluma es la lengua del alma” = the pen is the tongue of the soul.

Isn’t that beautiful?

Amparo.

Pat H
May 12, 2006 - 06:25 pm
Yes, that's marvelous.

marni0308
May 12, 2006 - 08:43 pm
I'm hopping off my valiant steed for a bit. Bob and I are flying to Philadelphia tomorrow for 5 days. We're going to roam all over and see historic sites and gardens and relatives. I hope the rain stops. What a gorgeous spring we've had and it has to pour pour pour when we go on a vacation. Well, we'll see everything rain or shine. We have slickers.

I'm bringing the Don with me to read on the plane and at bedtime. I'll need to smile from my daily dose of bathroom humor and slapstick comedy. I'll be back Wed. night and will ride fast to catch up. I hope my son remembers to feed my faithful steed while we're gone!

hats
May 12, 2006 - 09:42 pm
Marni,

Have a great time! Hurry back!

Amparo,

Those words are very beautiful. Those words make me want to read further.

Pat H
May 12, 2006 - 09:45 pm
When don Q attacks the sheep, the shepherds attack him back with slingshots and stones, but he fights on. Then "…a candied almond, drawn from a stream bed, smashed into his side and stove in a pair of ribs". He pulls out his potion, but "another sugared almond" smashes into him, shattering the potion container and knocking out his teeth.

What’s this about? These are obviously rocks. My Spanish edition calls the first rock "una peladilla de arroyo" (arroyo=stream). It has a footnote defining this as "un guijarro", which my dictionary says is a small, round pebble. My dictionary defines peladilla as 1. Candied almond. 2. Small pebble. The second rock is called "otra almendra"—another almond, so I guess peladilla is a slang term with both meanings, and the whole thing is either a pun or a simple colloquialism. Help us out, Amparo. In any case, I think a translator should try to find some phrasing that makes more sense to his readers.

hats
May 12, 2006 - 09:47 pm
Oh, I am so behind.

hats
May 12, 2006 - 09:48 pm
Oh, I am so behind. I am getting my book now, immediately.

Pat H
May 12, 2006 - 09:53 pm
Hats, we're all behind, in case you hadn't noticed.

hats
May 12, 2006 - 09:54 pm
Pat H, for once, its good to be with the crowd.

hats
May 12, 2006 - 10:46 pm
Don Q imagines these shields and armor. Even though the Don is fifty years old, his imagination is childlike and wonderful. I suppose this is due to all the books he had read in the past about chivalry. A part of me enjoys the Don's ability to imagine. In any century, too much reality fatiques the mind and body.

In real life, Cervantes must have seen many types of armor and shields during battle.Were those shields and armor as spectacular as the ones in Don Q's imagination? Don Q makes me want to ride out to battle. Only because I could carry armor and a shield.

I wonder what Joan of Arc's armor and shield looked like? What century did Joan of Arc live? I might have gotten totally off topic. My imagination is running away with me. I can blame my wandering mind on the Don. By the way, were shields and armor used for identity purposes?

Armor
1.gold-colored
2 flowers of gold
3.snakeskin
4.quartered /blue, green, white, yellow
5.snowy white
6.blue and white bells
____________________________________________________________________

Shields
1.a crowned lion kneeling at the feet of a damsel
2.three crowns of silver on a blue field
3.one of the doors from the temple destroyed by Samson
4.cat of gold(Meow-part of his lady's name)
5.one shield is blank
6.bed of asparagus
Is it true that madness or mental impairment frees the mind? I have often heard that these people are more creative and imaginative.

1amparo
May 12, 2006 - 11:29 pm
“so I guess peladilla is a slang”. Quite correct Pat; 100%.

“peladilla” (sugar almond); “canto” (a song, normally); and “guijarro”. … these are all names for “piedras” = rocks/stones in la Mancha area.

So another "peladilla" = another stone/rock.

It is not possible to do good translations unless one knows the slang of the place: good grammar is not sufficient.

And peasants spoke more slang than good grammar, including Sancho.

Amparo

hats
May 12, 2006 - 11:34 pm
Amparo,

The line in your book, I suppose in Spanish, reads far more beautiful than my Grossman translation. This is in my book.

"...the lance never blunted the pen, nor the pen the lance."

1amparo
May 12, 2006 - 11:47 pm
Many, many chapters before you all get to Book II, you are still reading book I. Book II chapter xvi, (page 405 in mine) there you will find "the pen is the tongue of the soul". Hope so for it is ever so easy to translate.

Amparo

hats
May 13, 2006 - 12:36 am
Amparo,

I must have the wrong quote. I am finished chapter 18. I need to go back and reread chapter 16. Thanks for the help.

1amparo
May 13, 2006 - 03:09 am
There are two books of DQ; 1st book published 1605, with LII/52 chapters; 2nd book published 1615 (when Cervantes was already dead) and LXXIV/74 chapters.

Now most books of El Quijote have the two volumes combined. Therefore I am under the impression that all translations, here read, have the two volumes combined. 1st book dedicated to “Duke of Bejar”. 2nd book (page 330 approx) dedicated to “Conde de Lemos”.

The second book deals with DQ 3rd escape from home. It is in this book, towards the end of chapter XVI, page 400s (?) that DQ says when talking with the “knight with the green coat”; “…the pen is the tongue of the soul”. Not in the past chapter XVI (1st book) you all had read. Which page are you supposed to be reading now? 100s?

Sorry mate, I am not very good at giving instructions; little wonder I am forever lost!

Amparo

hats
May 13, 2006 - 03:31 am
Amparo,

You are not lost! If anyone get lost, it's me. Your posts are very clear. My horse is behind your horse or maybe three horses behind.

1amparo
May 13, 2006 - 03:33 am
"...the lance never blunted the pen, nor the pen the lance."

Very good translation of "que nunca la lanza embotó la pluma, ni la pluma la lanza". page 98 my book.

Amparo

hats
May 13, 2006 - 03:53 am
Amparo,

Come to my house. Then, you can teach me Spanish. You would make a wonderful tutor. I most definitely would make the perfect student. We can have a cup of coffee and a good breakfast too.

Pat H
May 13, 2006 - 06:56 am
Right on, Hats, the shields were a means of identification. You had your own design, and it was a serious offence for someone else to use it. I love the rich detail of the don's imaginings in this scene.

hats
May 13, 2006 - 07:39 am
Pat H,

I do too. I just love it. I felt like taking a course in shields and armor. The descriptions are just magnificent.

hats
May 13, 2006 - 08:13 am
Pat H, that is sooo interesting, "a serious offence for someone else to use it."

Deems
May 13, 2006 - 10:15 am
Grossman has a good footnote on the section where DQ is hit with the pebbles (from slingshots, like David, I assume).

First part of her translation: "At that moment, a small round pebble came flying and hit him in the side, entombing two ribs inside his body"

and

"before he had finished swallowing what seemed to him a sufficient quantity [of the potion], another almond came flying and hit his hand, striking the cruet so squarely that it broke into pieces, taking along three or four teeth and molars from his mouth and smashing two of his fingers."

Grossman puts the footnote after "pebble."

Here's the note: "The Spanish word peladilla can mean either 'pebble' or 'sugared almond'. In the next sentence, Cervantes confirms the wordplay by using almendra, directly equivalent to 'almond'.

Of course, thanks to amparo, we already know this, but I wanted to quote the footnote to show how well Grossman translates. She even lets us in on some of the punning which we normally wouldn't get. And she uses "pebble" in the first case so we can follow what is going on.

Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 13, 2006 - 11:09 am
G'day, as Amparo would say..to answer your question, Amparo, I think it is safe to say we are on the side of the road in Chapter XVIII (we can't get into page numbers...but 100 pages sounds about right) - cowering with fear as the "armies"of ewes draw nearer.

Dore

Marni, we will miss you. Enjoy yourself. We won't go too far without you. Shall we spend a few more days with this chapter to give some of the pokier mules time to catch up with us? Or have they turned tail and headed for home, convinced the fearless leader is out of his mind? Does he sound like a shell-shocked soldier to you - suffering from battle fatigue, or like someone who has read too much - in those "lying books" as Sancho calls them? What are these armies he refers to? Where are these places he describes? He does seem to be raving mad, doesn't he?

Hats, the shield descriptions were quite interesting - and amusing:
...the Prince of New Biscay, whose shield shows a golden cat on a tawny field, and a motto - MIAU

...the Duke of Nerbia who carries an asparagus on his shield, with a motto declaring, 'My Luck Grows Straight'
After the exchange of stomach contents, Sancho seems really determined to pack it in and go home..."even if he had to lose his wages, plus all his hopes for the promised governorship of an island." Don tells him that it is FEAR which keeps Sancho from either seeing or hearing correctly. But Don's not afraid - he goes off into battle alone, where he is attacked by those shepherds. Will Sancho leave him now?

Joan Pearson
May 13, 2006 - 11:11 am
Thanks for the good information on the "candied almonds" Amparo and for Grossman's footnote information, Maryal. I was imagining those Jordon almonds you often get at weddings...the pastel sugar coated almonds? They would be small pebbles...big enough to crush ribs and knock out teeth. I googled "candied almonds" and came up with this -
They were real sweetmeats made of candied fruits, or, as we learn from a manuscript of 1504, with almonds, dried fruits, aromatic seeds, hazelnuts, pine nuts or cinnamon, covered with a hard coating of sugar. And they were habitually served not only at wedding banquets but also at many important meals. Jordan Almonds

Hats - your question about Joan of Arc was quite interesting. Yes, she WAS wearing armor - looks alot like what the Don was wearing, but newer, shinier, no rust -
Joan of Arc's armor (1412-30)
Our story is set nearly two hundred years after Joan wore this into battle. Clearly Don Quixote's appearance wearing armor startles people. I wonder when armor was left behind to rust.

Amparo draws our attention to this quote - "The lance has never blunted the pen, nor the pen the lance." Is this based on the familiar, "The pen is mightier than the sword"? Did Cervantes "pen" this too?

Have a lovely day, everyone!

Pat H
May 13, 2006 - 11:54 am
You can see why they needed pictures on their shields for identification. You couldn't see who was inside that tin can.

hats
May 13, 2006 - 12:44 pm


How in the world did they walk much less fight???? I would need lessons.

JoanK
May 13, 2006 - 06:33 pm
They had trouble walking. And they had a lot of trouble with heat-stroke. Imagine, in the crusades, in the hot climate of Jeruselem what the inside of that armor would have felt like.

Pat H
May 13, 2006 - 06:39 pm
This has almost no relevance to this discussion, but my favorite Spanish cheese is manchego, and it didn't occur to me until this discussion that it is the don's cheese (manchego=from La Mancha). It's suitable for the don, being strong and hard and full of character.

1amparo
May 13, 2006 - 07:43 pm
...sometimes not so hard and the best in the world!!!! I am not bias am I?

Hats post 490:

Thanks mate, shall be there as soon as we can get Australia - America (are you there?) in the blink of an eye. Till then mate.

Joan P. Pages.

It looks like Cervantes did enter "folio" numbers, folio = page... interesting...

Peladillas. I remember as a very young child running after the "pageant" of a baby just baptized as the godpather would throw peladillas and cents (yes, money) to us kids, guests and 'gate crashers' alike. Oh, boy what times!

Amparo.

hats
May 14, 2006 - 11:37 am
I didn't think of the heat factor. Wow!! Those suits must have been extremely uncomfortable.

JoanP

Thank you for the Joan of Arc link.

Joan Pearson
May 15, 2006 - 05:34 am
Good morning, Believers!

Rainy and gray here this morning - perfect time to curl up with a few more chapters of Cervantes' "humor"...

Amparo, I'm curious about where you grew up? Have you already told us and I have forgotten? In Spain? In Spain? "The rain in Spain..."

Pat H, where does one buy manchego cheese? It sounds just perfect for the saddlebag. I'll buy some if you tell me where?
Hats, I think the most uncomfortable thing about the armor would be the helmet. Remember that our fearless knight wears nothing but the barber's bowl on his head...though not well protected, he's not as uncomfortable as he might have been! He'd still have had his teeth with the helmet though...

Are we ready to proceed along the path? It looks as if Sancho has decided to continue, despite his resolve to return home. He seems to be aware that there will only be more of the same. I can relate to Sancho sometimes. How about you?

Before we climb on our poor old mules, I really think we ought to consider how our Don persuaded Sancho to have enough faith to follow him - you've got to wonder why El Quixote does not lose heart himself, tired, hurting, hungry, holding his remaining teeth in his mouth so they don't fall out! "A tooth should be considered more valuable than a diamond" he tells Sancho." Oh, I agree! What keeps him going, as battered as he is?

Deems
May 15, 2006 - 09:05 am
I'm ready to move on to Chapters 19 and 20, Joan P. First I have to finish 20, only a little more. And review 19 since I read it a while ago. But I have my lance in hand and my poor shabby mule has had breakfast such as we could find out here on the plain.

At least it's a strong mule and fairly young. It should be good enough for the journey.

Maryal

Deems
May 15, 2006 - 09:09 am
Joan P--In chapter 20, the sound that has so frightened DQ and Sancho during the night is revealed to be "six wooden fulling hammers" that are alternating stokes and creating quite a lot of noise. What on earth is a "fulling hammer"?

Anyone else have other translations? I suppose Amparo is in bed, but perhaps it is only late evening in Australia. I keep thinking that Amparo is in Spain.

~Maryal

Mippy
May 15, 2006 - 09:16 am
It's fun to answer questions like this, where an odd word comes up.
One jump into Google and there's your answer; do scoll down below the first paragraph, for some historical connection.

Fulling

Deems
May 15, 2006 - 10:05 am
Mippy--Thank you. What an interesting explanation which tells us about both fulling and felting. I understand now that those hammers must have been beating water into the wool. What do you suppose made them operate? Water, maybe, some kind of water wheel?

There don't appear to be any peasants from the hovels doing the hammering so I'm imagining some sort of alternate power source here.

I read your link all the way to the bottom.

Do you know that you can now buy yarn that is specially made so that after you knit up the whatever it is, you can shrink it down into something that approximates felt?

Back when I was doing a lot of knitting, we were always concerned that the item NOT shrink. Heh.

Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 15, 2006 - 10:13 am
OK, Maryal, Mippy, we'll move forward if you think the rest of our band is ready - but I feel as if we need to look closely at the end of Chapter XVIII before getting into the next adventure. Sancho is still on the road with the Don when they come across the mourners in the dark. Sancho had resolved to leave - the shepherds' attack with the "candied almonds" was justified, wasn't it? - The knight had slaughtered "armies" of innocent, defenseless sheep!

Sancho is sick, literally - and sick of the whole adventure too. Why does he stay??? Is it because he feels sorry for him?
OR
is it because of something the Don said to him?

I wonder if any of you heard Cervantes'voice behind this story - showing remorse for slaughtering innocent, defenseless armies because he was convinced it was a "holy" war...convinced that he was in the service of God and the Church, so the slaughter was justified. Am I reading into this?

"All right," says Sancho, "if it's God's will." And off they go to do further service. Of course, they go right into the attack on the clerics accompanying the dead man for a Christian burial. Cervantes has such a wicked sense of humor! I think he's making a point with all the vomiting and violence - I think he's portraying all the ugliness of war and making a suble comment on its justification.

Deems
May 15, 2006 - 10:43 am
Joan P--I love it when you see deep meanings. And I'm sure they abound although I frequently miss them myself. Certainly Cervantes is commenting on his times, but from his point of view, I don't think Don Quixote gets the message. He sees armies instead of sheep. He dashes in, looking for a particular knight to attack, Alifanfaron.

And he kills a few sheep before the shepherds down him with their well-aimed shots. Grossman has " The shepherds. . .picked up the dead animals, which numbered more than seven, and left without further inquiry."

"More than seven"--That's really not many sheep. And remember that shepherds always had a hard time keeping all their sheep (stupid animals and not very fast moving) alive. There were all sorts of predators lurking on the edge of the herds, waiting for an opportunity to snatch a young lamb. Yum.

Maryal

Pat H
May 15, 2006 - 12:32 pm
I’ve been thinking about why Sancho stays, but when I went to post, found I couldn’t get online. I am a little puzzled by his behavior. It’s almost like a small child who, frustrated, keeps trying to run away from home but doesn’t mean it. Near the beginning of Chapter 18 he says "And the way my feeble brain sees it, the best and also the proper thing would be to turn around and go right back home, because it’s harvest time now, and we ought to worry about our own affairs…" But they continue down the road, having a most amusing argument.

After the battle with the sheep, he again wants to leave: "Cursing himself once again, he resolved to leave his master and return home, even if he had to lose his wages, plus all his hopes for the promised governorship of an island." But they continue on down the road, (Admittedly, it’s getting dark, so no one would get very far anyway.)

I think in part he is getting fond of the don and doesn’t want to desert him. And I also think he is getting caught up in the don’s delusions. He half believes them, half doesn’t, but he can’t just write them off.

Pat H
May 15, 2006 - 12:36 pm
So here are the don and Sancho, covered with blood and magic balm and each other's vomit, with nothing to change into and no way of cleaning up. They must stink to high heaven, and the don's armor is probably rusting. I wonder how long it will be before they do clean up?

Deems
May 15, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Pat H--There's something wrong with SeniorNet today, at least for me. It takes forever to load or change discussions (and I have a broadband connection). I've checked my newspapers which have lots of photos and other things like jumping ads, and they load just as quickly as usual.

Anyway, as for why Sancho doesn't leave, I think he would rather stay with Don Q than go home to his wife, not to mention the labor of the harvest. And then too I think he feels somewhat protective.

Maryal

Pat H
May 15, 2006 - 01:09 pm
Joan P--The Whole Foods in Rockville sometimes has it, probably the others do too. The one I like is the pasteurized one.

Amparo--I should have called it firm, not hard, but I was trying to draw a parallel to the don.

hats
May 15, 2006 - 01:25 pm
I think Sancho feels protective of the Don too. I also feel Sancho admires the Don's courage. Maybe Sancho feels that leaving the Don would make him a coward. Cowardice would make him lose his chance at ever governing a kingdom or being a knight. Besides, if Sancho decided to return home, how could he ever face the people at home? I don't think people would have a welcome spirit if he left a fifty year old delusional man on the road by himself.

Why was Cervantes excommunicated? I don't know the answer.

hats
May 15, 2006 - 01:47 pm
To me, Don Q comes across as a very religious man. Don Q seems proud to be called a Catholic. I suppose riding out to right the wrongs done against people is a way of proving his faithfulness. He respects the fact that the dead man's bones must arrive in Segovia safely because God has chosen to take him by a fever.

One fever mentioned is called a "Quatrain fever." I never heard of that type of fever.

Joan Pearson
May 15, 2006 - 02:10 pm
See, there it is again, Maryal...He said that Alifanfaron was in love with Pentapolin’s daughter, but Pentapolin refused to sanction the alliance, because Alifanfaron, was a Mohammedan.I see Cervantes viewing these sheep as the Mohammedan armies, I have so many underlying questions - but it seems that at this time in his life, Cervantes is regretting his time spent in the army fighting the Crusades. Does anyone else see that? I'm wondering why. Maybe that will become clear as we go along. See there I go again, Maryal!

Do you think I am seeing deep meanings that aren't there? Of course I don't think Quixote sees what Cervantes sees, but I do think that Quixote is expressing Cervantes' thoughts by his actions. I guess I feel compelled to look for the meaning behind some of the action...or else I would just have to accept that Cervantes has set out merely to entertain. (In which case, I'm not always entertained.)

So you all see Sancho continuing on down the path because he feels protective of the knight? I'll admit that Quixote is pitiable - but I don't think I'd want to follow him into any more battles at this point. To attack the mourning clerics is way over the top - except if you're hungry, I guess. I am beginning to think of Sancho as the average man- the salt of the earth type - who represents us. I see him as being so disgusted with their situation as Pat so well describes it...that he is ready to turn back until Quixote convinces him that there is a higher reason to continue. That it is God's will that they continue.

So they continue on down the road - quite hungry. Both seemed pleased that the clerics ran off and left provisions. I'll bet there was some good firm manchego cheese in those saddlebags...

Hats, I smiled at Quixote's excommunication - because I remembered from reading some biographical material that Cervantes was excommunicated too...and yet he received the Catholic burial at the end. Will have to search for the reason - not only for the excommunication, but also, how it was rescinded.

It looks as if Quixote has talked his way out of his excommunication. He didn't actually lay a hand on the men of God, but a glove! Now that kind of thing I find funny!

Raffel tells us that the dead man died of "pestilential fever" - "Quatrain" sounds so much more interesting! It's a wonder we don't hear more about it...isn't this the first reference?

hats
May 15, 2006 - 02:24 pm
There are two fevers mentioned. The man on the bier died of pestilential fever while the other fever concerns Sancho.

"Sancho completely lost his courage, and his teeth began to chatter as if he had quartain fever."

Pat H
May 15, 2006 - 03:24 pm
It's probably quartan fever, which is a fever that recurs every 72 hours, usually malaria.

hats
May 15, 2006 - 03:41 pm
Pat H,

Thank you.

1amparo
May 15, 2006 - 11:17 pm
Cervantes was excommunicated 3 times for taking grains (in lieu of payments owed) from the clergy, plus making fun and criticizing the cardinal (?) of Toledo. Each time the excommunication was reversed.

Cervantes tried few times to go overseas but was not allowed by the king. Eventually he was allowed to go to Lepanto, 1571, on the same galleon, “La Marquesa” as his brother and under the command of king Phillip’s natural brother; D. Juan de Austria. Two year after Lepanto,1573, he went on an crusader against Turks, still under the command of Juan de Austria. When in 1575 was coming back to Spain in the galley “El sol” carrying with him letters of recommendation for his bravery and excellent conduct, they were all was taken prisoners by the moors and taken to Argel. Because of those letters he (and they all) was kept in captivity 5 years (the moors asking ransom from the king of Spain for him).

Cervantes while in prison was indeed not unlike DQ, he tried in numerous occasion to escape. And inside the drama it is quite funny to read of those attempts. My own personal opinion is that perhaps he could had done so… had he not wanted to take all the other prisoners with him as well!

Joan P wrote: “Amparo, I'm curious about where you grew up? Have you already told us and I have forgotten? In Spain? In Spain? "The rain in Spain..."

I was born and educated in Valencia, Spain. My family’s roots being in La Mancha I was sent there during vacations, hence my knowledge of the area, its custom’s and slang. I left Spain at 19 years of age. Married to an Aussie from Adelaide, he brought me here to Australia. All my family’s back in Spain but I go back at least once a year to catch up with them all.

Deems: What on earth is a "fulling hammer"? = Very, very large hammers to beat cloths clean on those times.

in Spanish “6 mazos de batán”. Chapter 20 is very funny one at least in the original…

Amparo.

1amparo
May 15, 2006 - 11:32 pm
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/help/help.asp?code=BTThes/f/69321.htm

Joan Pearson
May 16, 2006 - 05:56 am
Amparo, our "Woman of La Mancha" - aren't we fortunate to have you with us - our own reporter on the scene! When you were growing up in Spain, were all schoolchidren reading "Don Quijote"? In toto? All 900 pages? Do you remember how old you were when you first read it - and do you remember your reaction to some of these early scenes? Or did you read edited versions? (I can just imagine a kid's reaction to some of these graphic body function - and bawdy scenes!)

Thank you so much for your explanation of the "excommunication" - It sounds as if excommunication was something very different than it is today - used as punishment for slight personal offenses, and then reversed just as easily. Cervantes makes it funny by having this minor cleric impose the sentence...and has the Don just as readily dismisses the charge.

Pestilential fever - Quatran fever. I had completely forgotten about this added threat - was it unusual for people to live as long as Cervantes did? The survival rate must have been quite low considering the wars, the Inquisition and now the plague. Wasn't it rampant at this time? (Did you notice how everyone went off and left the dead man - including our Don and Sancho? I thought they burned these corpses to stem the spread of the disease. I was appalled that he was left there. Maybe the mourning monks will return for him once they are certain the madman has left the area. Maybe not. I guess I'm taking this too seriously, Maryal? I feel as if I'm there!

I'm enjoying watching Sancho "grow" following each debacle - is Sancho becoming the leading character of the piece, at least the co-star? He's so important to the story now, that you know no matter how dismal the prospects, he will continue on with "the Knight of the Sad Face." I thought it significant that he is doing the dubbing now. Isn't that a step up in squirely duties? And our Don accepts the name from him - which is saying a lot about his regard for Sancho, don't you think? The name itself indicates Sancho's sensitive assessment of his master's mental state - and his concern.

I suppose that the slaughter of merely seven or eight sheep is not enough cause to return home. But Sancho's priorities seem to have changed. As some of you have pointed out, he has become his master's protector. Does he have any belief at all in the knight's vision? Has he lost all hope that he will be rewarded for their accomplishments with that island Don Quixote has promised him?

Joan Pearson
May 16, 2006 - 06:18 am
This next episode is delicious. I thought both Sancho and Quixote came to life in this chapter. How does Sancho see his master now - an admirably, courageous man, or the laughingstock? How will this non-adventure affect their relationship? Well, at least Sancho is guaranteed a salary now - if not an island!

Deems
May 16, 2006 - 08:30 am
Thank you, Amparo. I always look forward to what you write because it gives us a real connection to Spain.

I'll give another example, one that occurred at the dentist's office. Turned out that I do have to have a new crown so I was there more than twice the time I expected to be. However, this unpleasant task was made merry when the dentist's assistant saw that I had Don Quixote with me.

She immediately remarked on it and said how she loved the book. She is from a South American country (will find out again exactly where--I get mixed up because my son's partner is from Ecquador and it took me forever to memorize that and my next door neighbor and his daughter just got back from Peru). Anyway I have known her since she started working for Dr. G, and have watched her English make drastic movements forward. She is very fluent now. Amazing what total immersion will do (though she speaks Spanish at home with her husband and little boy).

Anyway, she told me that they read the whole book in 4th grade and she loved it (again I'm assuming, with Joan P, that it may have been a sanitized version). She read it again in 10th grade, a very elaborate reading with a teacher who was from Spain and who made each child responsible for a chapter which they had to memorize part of. There were many tests because the class was being prepared for some big examination which I think determined whether they should continue with upper level schooling, sort of like in England. Again, she loved the book, more so this time because she understood more.

Anyway, she was SO pleased I was reading it.

I think chapters 19, 20, and 21 are fun. Haven't gotten to 22 yet.

Joan P--The dead body being transported had not just died. These churchmen were taking the bones of a previously deceased brother for reburial at another site. No possibility of contagion from whatever fever it was.

Chap 19, around the middle, Alonso Lopez tells DQ:

"I have come from the city of Baeza, with eleven other priests, the men who fled with the torches; we are going to the city of Segovia, escorting the dead body that lies in that litter, a gentleman who died in Baeza, where he was originally interred, and now, as I've said, we are carrying his bones ot his grave in Segovia, his native city."

So it's bones, not a body. And I'm sure the priests will come back for it and continue on their way.

~Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 16, 2006 - 08:54 am
Seee, if I had been assigned to memorize this chapter, I'd have picked up on that...de bones, not d'body! That makes a big difference. I'm searching for something on the pestilence epidemic at the time. The very definition implies its effect on the population -
Noun-
1. pestilence - any epidemic disease with a high death rate Synonyms: plague
2. pestilence - a pernicious evil influence
If it was this viurlent, it's amazing that Cervantes - and Quixote have lived to the ripe old age of 50, don't you think? Maybe that's why folks back at the castle/inns have cut him so much slack - out of respect for his advanced age?

Yet another band of innocent, unarmed group of "mourners" who got in Quixote's path as he goes about righting wrongs as he sees them...- are they called "mourners" in your translation as Raffel does?

Sancho and the knight had no qualms helping themselves to the manchego cheese in the monks' saddlebags. Guess they felt that the Church was wealthy, and the monks weren't starving as our duo was. "Gentlemen who rarely let themselves do without."

Very interesting comments from the dental asssistant, Maryal. Did she comment at all about Quixote's poor teeth? Teeth being worth more than diamonds? Did you notice that he had lost a good number of his molars even before the candied almond attack?

OK, I'm ready to give over to the fun of Chapter XX - - looking for our merry band to catch up with us!

sierraroseCA
May 16, 2006 - 10:41 am
. . . if they had a deeper meaning? Yes, I think they do, as everything in this book has a deeper meaning. Cervantes made fun of EVERYTHING, even his own religion in those places where it was "off" or not quite honest. Thus the excommunication by a low cleric, which is, of course, not the way it's supposed to be done but which probably many of those clerics of the time used as an intimidation tactic. It didn't work on DonQ.

He again made fun of the churchmen being so well fed while the peasants are not, and so Sancho helped himself to the food and felt perfectly UNguilty about that. I liked this chapter where he makes fun of the pompousness and greed of the church. One can (and should) make fun of the more unsavory aspects of even organizations one believes in and belongs to instead of buying everything they say hook, line and sinker. It's perspective that's necessary to keep organizations reasonably on the straight and narrow by giving them humorous reminders of where they are not up to snuff.

Regarding the sheep, I think they represent the two armies (the Moors and the Christians) facing off by following their illustrious leaders like sheep over a personal vendetta that the sheep knew nothing at all about and which didn't concern them and made no difference to their own lives. And of course, being a Christian, DonQ had no choice about which side he was on, just as a Moor would have no choice about which side he would be on.

The fulling hammer chapter is pretty funny, I think. It shows them both to be very human, very frightened, and very much as most people are in seeing danger where there really is none at all and letting their imaginations run wild; while not seeing where real danger is often found as pointed out in some of the other chapters.

We will discover at the end of the book why Sancho stayed with DonQ. It is actually a very "awakening" moment and good lesson about living life. So be patient.

sierraroseCA
May 16, 2006 - 10:56 am
It's Dali as DonQ and Picasso as Sancho. An artist making fun of two other artists? Wonder if he's saying that Dali was the better artist? Of course, both of them were of the genius DNA. This sculpture plays with my mind, to be sure, and tickles my funny bone.

judywolfs
May 16, 2006 - 11:55 am
That episode about DQ getting his teeth knocked out made me feel sort of sick - especially since he kept making Sancho look into his mouth to count his teeth. Ugh. And the the stones or pebbles being called candied almonds is quite fitting. Everything seems to be perceived as something other than what it really is; why not refer to being hit in the mouth by a rock as tasting a candied almond.

I'm awfully glad to have joined this discussion, even though I haven't had a lot to say. If not for the posts here, I think I might have quit this book for about the 5th time. I'm really trudging along with it. Not that it's difficult reading, must be that it's just that I'm really not relating to it very much. ~JudyS

Deems
May 16, 2006 - 02:00 pm
Yes, they must all be out partying at a party to which they did not invite US. Hmmmmm. Do you think that we are getting dusty out here on this old road?

Mippy?

Joan K?

Pat H?

I know Marni is somewhere or other.

Phyll?

Joan P--You seem to worry a lot about those folks that DQ mistakenly identifies as his enemies, but it must be pointed out that just as DQ and Sancho are frightened by all those ominous silent lights approaching, so are the priests frightened away from that liter with bones on it by the attack of the Knight. I think it's a funny scene. They're all out there in the dark and just waiting to have the bejeebers scared out of them.

In chap. 20, we will confront more fear in the night. . .and a shift in the relationship between DQ and Sancho. . .one which ends in hurting Sancho's feelings. (I really worry when people's feelings get hurt; their various wounds and beatings--in this book--don't seem to bother me at all.)

Hats--Where are you?

Andrea--How's Bill and where are you?

Maryal

Deems
May 16, 2006 - 02:02 pm
((((Judy))))--Do not quit. We are here. Complete with ice packs in case you should get some vicarious tooth aches. And this book does get better and better as the characters develop. Give it time.

We are here, dusty and disgruntled though we may be. I have to admit that teeth are one of my sensitive issues as well.

Maryal

hats
May 16, 2006 - 02:06 pm
Deems,

I am here. I can't leave. I love Sierrarose and Amparo's posts. I will welcome Marni back too. Where is JoanK and Pat H?

Deems
May 16, 2006 - 02:09 pm
I don't know, Hats, I've been trying to scare them up. But I suspect they are having a party that we're not invited to. Bummer.

Good to know you're still with us. I think DQ gets a lot more interesting in the next three chapters. It starts to cling together a little more. That's not quite what I mean, but we begin to see where Don Quixote is coming from and we learn more about Sancho.

Maryal

Pat H
May 16, 2006 - 09:54 pm
Don Q doesn’t express any remorse or admit error in attacking the mourners, even though this time he has done real harm to an innocent person; he justifies himself by saying that it’s part of his obligation, and the mourners shouldn’t have mislead him by looking like evil creatures.

It’s interesting, though, that this time when the bachelor of arts explains what the group really is, the don believes him, and doesn’t stick to his own fanciful explanation.

Pat H
May 16, 2006 - 10:12 pm
The excommunication scene is another example of Cervantes' beautiful sense of timing. The bachelor has ridden off, and we have the serious but funny conversation about "The Knight with the Sad Face". All of a sudden the bachelor pops back in. He's furious. "Oh, and by the way, you're excommunicated" then rides off again.

I like the don's justification; it's like a child's excuse: I didn't lay hands on anything, only a lance.

Pat H
May 16, 2006 - 11:35 pm
The old book I have that leaves out the bawdy parts also leaves out the excommunication! The bachelor doesn't return, but the don looks worried, and says he is afraid he might be excommunicated, like Cid Ruy Diaz etc. This makes that whole bit pointless.

JoanK
May 17, 2006 - 12:46 am
I'm here, I'm here. Finally recovered from my stomach flu and able to laugh at the bathroom humor (I've been seeing too much of bathrooms lately!).

my Raffel finally arrived. I think I like it better than Grossman, at least for this part of the book. When I compare individual sentences, Grossman's are better. But Raffel is, not funnier, but breezier and seems to move along faster. I admit, I've been wading through Grossman like swimming through molasses.

My copy must have been used for a course. It has a slip inside listing pages in part II that "you don't have to read". I wonder if they're just boring, or are pages critical of the Church. I'll try to keep the slip til we get there.

I think it was Amaparo (if I'm wrong, please excuse me) who pointed out that the book is highly visual. Chapter 29 is hilarious if you picture the scene: Rosenante tied up, the Don sitting on him like a statue, Sancho clinging to Don with his pants down and his rear end sticking out. I'm not sure I want to know what Dore made of it.

But I was really disturbed when the Don beat Sancho, and then passed it off with a silly excuse!! Shame. And surprised that Sancho made fun of him. We'll see where there relationship goes from there.

Is this an early example of industrialization we are seeing with the falling hammers? Interesting.

hats
May 17, 2006 - 12:48 am
Hi JoanK, I am glad you are feeling better. Where is Pat H? I miss Marni and Mippy.

JoanK
May 17, 2006 - 02:28 am
Pat just posted a few posts ago. She's with us.

I see you can't sleep either.

1amparo
May 17, 2006 - 03:15 am
"The Knight with the Sad Face". Quixote is also known as: "El Caballero de la Triste FIGURA" = the knight with the sad SHAPE.

Hello, JoanK, mate. Could it be a typo error "Chapter 29 is..." Poor Rocinante is tied-up, well tied up!, and unable to follow his master's instructions in chapter 20. Indeed, I visualize the poor thing wanting and not being able to move while the homosapiens almost soil their pants with fear, well Sancho does!. Oh dear, never fails to make me laugh.

I am disgusting!

Amparo

JoanK
May 17, 2006 - 03:20 am
Sorry, mate. I meant Chapter 20.

It is funny, but I'm glad I didn't suggest that we eat a snack while we read, as we have in other discussions.

hats
May 17, 2006 - 04:54 am
Thank goodness! I am way back on chapter XX.

hats
May 17, 2006 - 06:14 am
Hi Amparo.

In chapter XX I feel Don Q is afraid of losing control. He wants the servant and master positions to remain in place. I think earlier JoanP mentioned the word "equality." The cruel beating Don Q gives Sancho makes me feel badly. Is this beating Don Q's way to remind himself that he is the leader?

Mippy, thank you for the "Fulling Brush" article link.

Joan Pearson
May 17, 2006 - 08:51 am
Good morning, Dreamers!

Sierra said something yesterday that perked me right up - "Be patient - We will discover at the end of the book why Sancho stayed with DonQ. It is actually a very "awakening" moment and good lesson about living life." If we can stick it out to the end (at least through Volume I) we will discover, hopefully why WE all stayed with Don Q! I pledge to keep after all our mule riders to stay the course! I really believe we will be rewarded in the end.

JoanK - Also happy that your book arrived. Your comments on Grossman's translation ("like swimming through molasses") surprised me. I do agree Raffel is "breezy" (some say too breezy) but it is easy reading. Did you read yesterday's Washington Post - the article on Edith Grossman - her name jumped right off the page at me -
The Manheim Medal, which is awarded only once every three years, recognizes a lifetime of excellence in translation, and, at 70,the PEN American Center gives her its Ralph Manheim Medal for Translation

Her vivid, colorful translations of contemporary Latin American masters— García Márquez, Vargas Llosa, Mutis, Montero—and of the golden age classic Don Quixote transport the English reader beyond the borders of our language and deep into the realm of the imagination.” Edith Grossman wins Manheim medal for Translation
I am also relieved your stomach is stronger - you'll need it! hahaha. No snacking...well, maybe a bit of manchego cheese... Pat, I was really interested in your comment that the "old book" leaves out these bawdy parts...and the communication - which results in the following text being flat and pointless. Judy maybe it's good you felt a little sick - you can't say you weren't engaged - that Cervantes didn't have your full attention! Let's assume the bawdy parts and disgusting parts are integral to the story - and hold our noses and zip through those parts as zippy Mippy does.

I agree, let's not go beyond Chapters XIX and XX just yet - we've still got so much to talk about - and others are just beginning to catch up. We don't want to leave anyone in the dark at night alone on the trail. Traude? Phyll?

Joan Pearson
May 17, 2006 - 09:27 am
Sierra, I'm heartened to hear you say that everything here has a deeper meaning. Sometimes I have the tendency to delve beyond what the author intends...I really do feel that Cervantes is walking a fine line with his comedy- and his criticism. He's got those Inquisitors breathing down his neck and must appear to be entertaining rather than criticizing his Church. He's also criticizing the upper classes, the aristocrats who really enjoy reading those stories of knight-errantry. If his book is to sell, he's got to fool them too.

The excommunication is a great example of this. PatH - Cervantes is making the whole practice of minor clerics (and archclerics too) look ridiculous in the imposition of excommunication. Sierra notes that many of the clerics used excommunication as an intimidation tactic...oh yes, I agree. I see the Church elders at this time going to extremes trying to hold on to what control they have left - and this extends all the way down to lesser clerics. I'm thinking that it is difficult for Cervantes to remain true to his Church at this time. As Sierra notes, he also attacks the greed of the Church in the portrayal of the well fed clerics. This of course justifies raiding their saddlebags...they can stand going without a meal - while the people (he and Sancho) are starving. And oh, yes, Sierra - the armies of innocent sheep going to slaughter to avenge a personal vendetta. Is this how Cervantes views the Crusades?

Pat - is this the first time that Don Quixote doesn't persist with his fanciful perception of the sheep as enchanted armies when he is informed who the mourners actually were? Will we see him slip in and out of reality in the future - or is this an aberration? He can't justify avenging the wrong done to the dead man when he learns that the man died of the pestilence...which must have been caused by God's will. He refuses to get revenge on God!

So our boys move on down the road...looking for the next adventure...Sancho helping his Sad -faced knight as best he can. How can he chew the firm manchego cheese without those molars? I thought it interesting that it was Sancho who dubs the knight. This time Quixote doesn't tell Sancho he doesn't know anything about knight-errantry. This time he accepts his idea and resolves to paint a sad-faced knight on his shield! Are we seeing a bit more equality than before?

Pat H
May 17, 2006 - 09:31 am
Yes, Joan and Amparo, that's a great scene in the night. I bet Dore could have made it magnificent. I don't know if he did, though, since my old book leaves out all the vulgar parts of the scene, and would certainly have omitted a picture of it.

There's a great one of the fulling mill, though, looking delapidated and dramatic at the foot of an improbable cliff, with the don and Sancho approaching in dramatic attitudes, also a small one of Sancho hobbling Rocinante.

Pat H
May 17, 2006 - 09:53 am
Joan P--will we see him slip in and out of reality in the future, or is this an aberration?

So far, I see a rough progression toward reality. In the first trip, the don was completely deluded. This time, when he leaves the inn, the innkeeper convinces him it really is an inn (he still doesn't pay, though). Later he thinks it is both an inn and a castle, enchanted.

He doesn't ever believe his armies are really sheep, but when the bachelor explains the real nature of the procession, he accepts it without arguing.

In chapter 20, he doesn't even try to invent an explanation for the fearsome noise, just resolves to attack it, whatever it is. When dawn shows him what is really making the noise, he believes the truth.

I suspect we will go back the other way, though.

Joan Pearson
May 17, 2006 - 10:15 am
Pat right now, I see Sancho entering more and more into accepting DQ's fantasy world ...and maybe Don Q. will not be so comfortable if their fantasies clash. Who knows...maybe Don will become more reasonable as Sancho goes over the edge?

I love the Dali/Picasso image of DonQ and Sancho too, Sierra! Two impossible dreamers, out of sync with their world...going where no one else has ventured. They share this dream.
Do you see Sancho more a believer in what Don Q is saying now? Sierra sees both of them very frightened of the evil lurking in the woods - BOTH see danger where there is none at all. Sancho is weeping - he must believe Don Q is in great danger - and cares. He is now financially secure even if Don doesn't come back, but still he cares.

And then smack in the middle of all the angst, we get the hilarious picture JoanK and Amparo describe..."What did Dore make of it?" Hmmm, Pat H, I zeroed in on the large illustration of the two approaching the fullering mill ...
Can't tell what Sancho is doing - maybe he's looking for some rope? I can see where Dore would leave that scene alone!!!

Maryal worries that Sancho's feelings are hurt...and Hats is concerned about the cruel beating Don Q gave him. I think it was interesting that Don Q. was more willing to put up with Sancho's relieving himself than he was at the mockery he received. I really think Sancho thought they were laughing together...don't you? Or is that the reason Don Q was so outraged? The togetherness?

Pat H
May 17, 2006 - 10:39 am
Joan, I definitely think Sancho is getting sucked into the don's world. Look at the beginning of chapter 19, where it is Sancho who comes up with the explanation that all their calamities are punishment for the don's sin against the laws of knighthood, and urges him to be careful so the ghosts won't revenge themselves further.

judywolfs
May 17, 2006 - 12:17 pm
Thanks for the encouragement, Deems, and don’t worry, I have no intention of leaving – I still have hope! And yes, I certainly was engaged enough to feel sick about the teeth. I guess I'm still a bit of a prude as far as not finding funny the crude/vulgar parts. But I'm becoming very interested in Cervates' motive behind the book - it can't be to just entertain, can it? ~JudyS

Deems
May 17, 2006 - 12:35 pm
Judy--I think the crude parts are there because they were pretty much part of the machinery of the tales of the times. People appreciated humor they could understand, and in a time when privacy wasn't exactly part of most people's lives, I guess bathroom humor and sexual hijinks were pretty much something that you couldn't get through the day without seeing or being part of. Remember in Shakespeare's day, people were still throwing chamberpots out the window in the morning. Yessiree, right into the streets of London.

I'm not a prude and diarrhea isn't exactly in my funny category, having at times been a sufferer of said affliction. I do think being tossed in a blanket is funny, and I think it's very funny when Sancho, who fears Quixote going after who knows what in the dark of night, hobbles Rocinante who thus cannot move one step forward no matter how much urging he is given. What strikes me as funny (have you ever noticed that when you start talking about humor, it goes away?) is that Don Q never even thinks of dismounting to see what might be wrong.

Given that he is not a sprightly youth and dismounting might be somewhat difficult, it is still funny to me that it is easier for him to believe that he has been enchanted than to check out his horse and see how his legs look. The part about Sancho having to poop without leaving the vicinity doesn't hit me as funny, but I can understand that Cervantes' readers might be roaring away.

I love Grossman's translation, Joan P, don't find it at all thick getting through. I think she has a light touch and am enjoying it very much.

I think Sancho might be, er. . . scooching down before relieving himself. . .in that Dore illustration. The editor of the old book who omits all the crudities would maybe omit a Dore illustration, but Dore himself was no prude.

Maryal

Phyll
May 17, 2006 - 02:15 pm
and swallowing all of the dust that you are stirring up so far ahead of me. But I'm trying to catch up!

The translations of the Don's knightly name is interesting to me. Grossman translates it "the Knight of the Sorrowful Face", while the Starkie trans. that I am reading calls him the "Knight of the Rueful Figure". In the play, "Man of La Mancha", there is a song that is entitled, "Hail, Knight of the Woeful Countenance".

Hail, Knight of the Woeful Countenance, 
Knight of the Woeful Countenance 
Fare to the foe, 
They will quail at the sight 
Of the Knight of the Woeful Countenance! 
Oh valorous Knight, 
Go and fight for the right, 
And battle all villains that be, 
But oh, when you do, 
What will happen to you 
Thank God I won't be there to see!

Deems
May 17, 2006 - 02:35 pm
There's Phyll--Yay! Yes, I noticed the different translations of figura as well. Amparo tells us that it can be translated "figure" as in shape. My guess is that it's one of those words that can be face or figure or shape.

I like "Knight of the Sorrowful Face" myself and was interested that it was Sancho, he who is certainly not an expert in knight-errantry, who came up with it. So Don Q gets his first sobriquet from his humble squire. It has a lovely sound to me, no matter how one translates it. Surely the "sorrowful" part of it is pretty clear.

Pat H
May 17, 2006 - 04:26 pm
I'm not sure why Cervantes put it in, but the story of the goatherd Lope Ruiz and the shepherdess Torralba strikes me as being a prototype of what we now call shaggy dog stories--a joke whose story is so elaborate and rambling that by the time you get to the punch line, either it isn't funny enough to justify what went before, or maybe there isn't even any punch line. I bet that, if the don had kept count of the goats, the story would still have ended inconclusively.

I happen to like shaggy dog stories, so find this one amusing. Like almost all of the humor in don Q, I find it funnier the second time around. Why is this?

Deems
May 17, 2006 - 04:39 pm
Pat H--I liked Sancho's "shaggy dog story" too. I think he upsets DQ with it a little because DQ doesn't "get" it. He expects stories all fluffed out, the way he tells them. I suspect that Sancho may have heard (though not read; he is illiterate) many stories in his little town, and doesn't it seem that this one must be a joke?

DQ, somber and devoted as usual, falls for it but doesn't get it.

Not to far in the future we will see Quixote take his hand at telling a somewhat longer story to Sancho.

Now how many goats were on the other side of the river?

1amparo
May 18, 2006 - 04:59 am
"the Knight of the Sorrowful Face". “My guess is that it's one of those words that can be face or figure or shape”.

With respect; No. face = “cara” or “rostro” in Spanish and Cervantes definitely wrote “figura”. Hence any of; form, shape, image, figure would do fine…, but not face! I know I am being pedantic. However… Quixote portraits a sad “figure” (could this be the right word?) indeed; his skeletal body, his half starved horse, not to mention the make-believe artefacts he carries. Sorrowful and sad picture for others to watch him? Yes, by all means!… But his face is a picture of haughtiness, pride and arrogance. Definitely not sad.

On the other hand, perhaps my English is lacking.

Hats: Sancho being hit by DQ.

Well, even today in some parts of the world servants get hit by employers… Only joking.

But hope you all have realised by now (in your reading) that Sancho did not mind one bit. Of course, Sancho makes fun of DQ and the don retaliates by hitting him! How many of you have been in such situation with brothers, sisters etc.? I remember that any time I did so to any of my brothers (four, all older than me) I would have to use my legs to get me out of what was coming!

Sancho says of DQ hitting him: “ese te quiere bien te hace llorar” = “who loves you makes you cry” (???). and on the same breath says “...gracias a Dios en la diligencia que puse en ladearme” = thank God I was quick to fend off/avert the blow.”

Cheers.

Amparo

hats
May 18, 2006 - 05:21 am
Hi Amparo,

With the hitting, I never know when to laugh or cry. I have felt badly about Don Q's broken body too. I think men reading Don Q would really enjoy all of this smacking around.

Deems
May 18, 2006 - 05:26 am
Amparo--very interesting. Of the meanings you give for figura, I guess the one that in English might lead one to stretch a little and translate the word as "face" is image.

There used to be a saying when a child looked just like, say, his father, that the child was the "spit and image" of his parent. Maybe that's how Grossman got to "face." Anyhoo, we agree that DQ is one sorry sight and that, however we translate the sobriquet, Sancho has pinned him for us. You are right, the man is skin and bones, believing as he does that it is better to think on his beloved (imaginary) lady than it is to eat and get a good sleep at night. And poor ribby old Rocinante, himself somewhat over the hill.

Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 18, 2006 - 06:31 am
Good morning, Dreamers - Phyll - happy to hear your old dun-colored mule clip clopping along the trail with us. Wouldn't you love to see a production of "Man of La Mancha" now? Thanks for bringing us the words to the song of the Man of the Woeful Countenance. I'm listening closely to other translations - clearly our Don is a sorry sight, especially now without those teeth - as Amparo describes him - "Sorrowful and sad picture for others to watch him? Yes, by all means!… But his face is a picture of haughtiness, pride and arrogance. Definitely not sad."

This makes sense to me. I was having trouble with the "sad" face. What would be the cause for his sadness. This is all just make-believe to him. Aren't things are going rather well in his search for adventure (with the exception of the embarrassing fullering hydraulic giants! Why didn't he claim the machinery was enchanted giants as he had before. He does seem to be coming to grips with reality more readily than in the past, no?)

Amparo - thanks for picking up on Don Q's words following the whacks with his lance...Sancho is quick to forgive - "“who loves you makes you cry” (Raffel translates this as "you always hurt the ones you love"! That's putting a positive spin on it. And Don Q. admits it might have been worthy of laughing- and sort of apologizes saying to Sancho -
You are a sensible man, and you know what a man does first isn't always under his control."
I thought those words were a compliment to Sancho - and yet Don ends up inflicting greater punishment than the beating... Sancho has his pride too.

I still have questions about Sancho and his constant referring to the blanket tossing as one of the most painful memories he has. I thought it was funny too, Maryal - maybe that's why Sancho remembers it as being such torture. It wasn't really painful - but maybe just his pride was hurt?

Joan Pearson
May 18, 2006 - 06:50 am
Correct me if I'm wrong in understanding the impact this tale of "knight errantry" must have had on Cervantes' readers. His stated purpose in writing this parody was to de- mythify the stories of knight errantry that were so popular among the aristocrats at this time. These were tales of fantastic adventure, star-crossed lovers and the idealization of knighthood.

I imagine many of them reacted as you do, Judy - they were expecting something different - loftier - and did not find the crude/vulgar parts to their liking. Did they find something in Don Quixote that exceeded their dislike though? Right now, I'm thinking that Cervantes' motive may have been to introduce reality into the popular tales of knight errantry he held in such disdain - and to do it in a way that was entertaining.

As Maryal reminds us - since the time of Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales in the 14th century people were familiar with this sort of bawdy, earthy humor in literature. Undoubtedly the aristocrats were familiar with it too - but the popular tales of knight errantry were idealized and sanitized - this type of humor was most unexpected. In a way, I see this as an affront to the aristocracy's taste.

Joan Pearson
May 18, 2006 - 07:15 am
Pat H - I'm beginning to see that with each rereading, I find things I overlooked the first time. Maybe that's why you are finding certain stories and episodes funnier the second time around?

I thought Sancho's tale was funny too - the audacity - first of all, the story is a reversal - the heroine is not a beauty but "stocky and mannish" - with a tarnished reputation. Lope had been smitten by her until her reputation caused him to have a change of heart. She is pursuing Lope Ruiz who is trying desperately to escape her and preserve his flock of sheep.

Then there's Sancho's refusal to finish the story because Don Q. wasn't paying close enough attention to him while he was telling the story! Not showing him proper respect! Maryal do you really see DQ upset because he didn't get it? I thought maybe he was admiring the novel way the story ended? Did I miss annoyance? I think I would have been annoyed.

Deems
May 18, 2006 - 10:34 am
Joan P--I see the annoyance beginning even earlier. Sancho says,

"Well, I'll tell you that somewhere in Extremadura there was a goatherd, I mean to say the man tended goats, and this goatherd I was telling you about in my story was named Lope Ruiz, and this Lope Ruiz was in love with a shepherdess named Torralba and this shepherdess named Torralba was the daughter of a rich herder, and this rich herder--

Here, DQ interrupts with

"If you tell your story this way, Sancho, repeating everything you say two times, you will not finish in two days; tell it in a continuous way, and speak like a man of understanding, or do not say anything at all."

"The way I'm telling it," responded Sandcho, "is how tales are told in my village, and I don't know any other way to tell it, and it isn't right for your grace to ask me to do things in new ways."

Finally DQ gives in and says "Tell it however you wish. Fate has willed that I cannot help listening to you, and so continue."

A little later in this chapter, when the men discover the fulling hammers and Sancho makes fun of DQ, Quixote gets very angry at him and tells him to refrain from speaking to him so much.

And that's what hurts Sancho's feelings. And I don't blame him because I'm always talking and blurting things out (extrovert) and I get hurt when people tell me to stop talking.

More on this later, no doubt.

Grossman has a footnote to the conversation that follows Sancho's making fun of DQ that reads, "For the next few sentences, DQ uses a more formal mode of address with Sancho (a change that cannot be rendered in modern English) to indicate extreme displeasure and his desire for distance between them."

Maryal

judywolfs
May 18, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Thanks Joan, for reminding me of Cervantes’s purpose of de- mythifying the stories of knight errantry. (De-mythify - isn’t that a funny word? Makes me feel as though I'm typing with a lisp). ~JudyS

Joan Pearson
May 18, 2006 - 01:16 pm
hahaha, Judy, I think I made it up - or is there such a word? Maybe it's "demythologize"?

That was an interesting note from Edith Grossman, Maryal... ("DQ uses a more formal mode of address with Sancho (a change that cannot be rendered in modern English") No doubt the knight is annoyed with Sancho's familiarity and audacity - and pulls rank to put him in his place. And they'd been getting on so well together. Now DQ tells him he's never heard of a squire who talked to his lord as much as Sancho does. Blames himself because he doesn't command enough respect. "It's essential to make distinctions between master and servant, between lord and man."

It will be interesting to see how long this imposition of silence lasts out here on the wilderness. What's there to do but talk? Immediately, they come upon what looks like a man wearing Mambrino's golden helmet. Shall we move a bit down the road and to get a closer look at him? - (in Chapter 21) We'll have to get the story from the narrator - Sancho's lips are sealed...

And please, if you have any more comments on Chapter 20, we're all ears. (Earlier questions can be found at the bottom of the heading.)

Mippy
May 18, 2006 - 02:39 pm
To our wonderful discussion leaders and others who asked ...
Way back in #529 you asked whether I was out ...

Actually, yes, went to NYC for a mini-vacation and saw 2 shows ...
Not, however, Man of la Mancha, which is not on Broadway this year, but which I did see years ago ...
so will try to comment if/when I ever catch up!

Deems
May 18, 2006 - 05:54 pm
Mippy--Welcome back! We've been going really slow, to the point of having Sancho hobble Rocinante so DQ couldn't go wildly attacking things on a night so dark they could hear a loud noise but see nothing. We're only up to Chap 20.

~Maryal

1amparo
May 18, 2006 - 06:44 pm
"For the next few sentences, DQ uses a more formal mode of address with Sancho (a change that cannot be rendered in modern English) to indicate extreme displeasure and his desire for distance between them."

Actually, DQ tells Sancho to move away few steps (because DQ cannot breeth due to the smell coming out of Sancho). Sancho asks if he has done something he is not supposed to have done: "...he hecho de mi persona... algo que no deba". to which DQ replies: "Peor es meneallo, amigo Sancho." Meaning; "Let the matter rest" for DQ does not want to embarrass Sancho anymore about Sancho's stinky smell.

From the Spanish Real Academia:

"Peor es meneallo": "Denota que no es oportuno volver a tratar un asunto para evitar una situación embarazosa".

Cheers.

Amparo.

PS. My BD today (counting backwards now), going out to lunch with few friends. CUL everyone. 11.30 am here. Fri. 19th

Joan Pearson
May 18, 2006 - 07:42 pm
Happy, Happy Birthday, dear Amparo!
Felíz cumpleaños!
So you are counting backwards - I like that! Enjoy your day! I guess it has already started!

Mippy, welcome back to the trail. We've actually started Chapter XXI earlier today. Poor Sancho is supposed to keep his feelings to himself, but the narrator fills in what he isn't saying. The barber is wearing his basin on his head to keep off the rain. Our knight thinks he's wearing the helmet he desperately needs. This is just the beginning. This is a very strange chapter. I cannot wait to hear your take on Don Q's fantasy! And watch Sancho!

Off to Memphis for granddaughter's ballet recital - flight leaves at 6 am...didn't think any flight left before 7, but mine does. Will tune in from son's house tomorrow if I can. Now be good!

Deems
May 18, 2006 - 08:22 pm
Happy Birthday, Amparo! And many more.

Have a good trip, Joan. How exciting, a ballet recital! Hope the little ballerina does a good job. You will have fun no matter what.

hats
May 19, 2006 - 12:30 am
Amparo, Have a wonderful and happy birthday!

Mippy
May 19, 2006 - 12:56 am
Amparo,

Happy, Happy Birthday to you!

Make a Wonderful Wish, too!


Thanks for the welcome back to the dusty DQ Trail ... I love the part where they meet the barber.
This broad comedy is just what I need ... and I plan to jump in with real commentary, not only greetings, later
(if I can ever get any sleep ... aarrrgh ...)

Pat H
May 19, 2006 - 06:15 am

Phyll
May 19, 2006 - 07:27 am
Feliz Cumpleaños! Amparo!

or, in Basque,

Zorionak!

marni0308
May 19, 2006 - 07:38 am
I'm arriving on my valiant steed as Joan is departing. We had a wonderful time in Philadelphia and surrounding areas. I fondly thought of our Founding Mothers discussion when we visited George Washington's headquarters (original building) at Valley Forge where I saw Martha's room where she sewed and gossiped with Kitty Greene and Lucy Knox when they were spending the winter with the Continental Army.

I took the Don with me and I find I'm way ahead of schedule now. I'll have to re-read some earlier chapters to revisit sections.

Happy Birthday, Amaparo!

hats
May 19, 2006 - 07:39 am
Hi Marni,

Glad you are back!

Deems
May 19, 2006 - 08:42 am
Hey, the clan of travellers is regathering! This is very good news since Joan P is off--probably there by now--to see her granddaughter Lyndsay (which I have most likely misspelled--sorry, Joan P) in a ballet recital. Good Heavens time she is a moving. I remember Joan P posting darling baby pictures of said oldest grandchild. Surely she can't be more than 4-5. I'm guessing four.

Let us hope that there might be a photo or two so we can see the little girl. My best friend in high school used to take ballet. She did it to please her mother. But she certainly was graceful as a result.

OK, soon we will talk about the knight who has that helmet that Quixote has sworn to take from him. This is a funny chapter (21) and the one after it (22) intrigues me.

Don Quixote's helmet is gold so this one must be the right one; look at it glisten in the distance.

Of course, all that glistens is not gold.

Marni, it is so good to see you again and I know you had mostly rain since that's what we had all over the East coast for the last however long it has been. Flooding in New England even. Go back and review 21 and 22. I'll hold onto your mule (or do you have one of the little gray donkeys?). You never know who might come along and want to grab your animal out here on the plains.

Back later, Maryal

1amparo
May 19, 2006 - 06:11 pm
Thank You!, Thank You!, to all of you for your well wishes. Wow, Phyll that is something! the Basque will be ever so proud of you, mate.

Amparo

Deems
May 19, 2006 - 08:13 pm
Amparo--Re. the earlier footnote by Grossman. She has it toward the end of the chapter, after DQ and Sancho have come upon the fulling hammers. Sancho begins to imitate DQ's speech that begins "I who was born in the iron age. . ." He gets in a couple of sentences before DQ is much offended. It is at this point that DQ starts using a more formal address with Sancho that ends with his telling Sancho not to speak so often.

Maybe you can find that part and tell us about the more formal addresses that Grossman says cannot easily be translated into English?

Hope you had a very happy birthday.

~Maryal

marni0308
May 19, 2006 - 09:25 pm
I'm going to jump in and answer questions about the galley slaves in chapter 22 from above.

Cervantes must have known plenty about galley slaves what with his service in the naval battle of Lepanto. Just think Ben Hur. What a terrible sentence. Cervantes himself was captured by Barbary pirates and enslaved for five years. Barbary pirates forced prisoners to row their galleys, just as Europeans forced captured Ottomans, Turks, and political and religious prisoners to row their galleys. Even the Pope's galleys were manned with enslaved prisoners. I wonder if Cervantes labored on a Barbary pirate's galley ship? Cervantes was also imprisoned on at least one occasion in Spain. I think he expresses his sympathy towards prisoners and antipathy and cynicism towards the legal/penal systems and forced labor in this chapter. The punishments are extremely severe.

First prisoner: I think he was a thief. Was he stealing some laundry? He was not tortured but he received 100 lashes on his back and hundred lashes on the back, and three years as a galley slave.

Second prisoner: Under torture, he confessed he was a cattle thief, apparently without witnesses or evidence of a crime. He received 200 lashes on his back and six years as a galley slave.

Third prisoner: It doesn't say what the crime was, but he says if he had had 10 ducats to bribe the notary and attorney, he would have gotten off. For his crime, he was to spend five years as a galley slave.

Fourth prisoner: He was an old and infirm pimp with "a certain touch of the sorcerer about him." He was held exposed to the public in shame and was to spend four years as a galley slave. Don Quixote thought pimps were necessary for a well-ordered society. But he thought the prisoner deserved punishment for sorcery. The prisoner said he was not guilty of sorcery.

Fifth prisoner: An elegant Latin scholar who apparently slept with a number of women, several of whom were his cousins, and got them pregnant. His story does not suggest rape. He was nearly hanged, but got six years as a galley slave instead.

Last prisoner: Gines de Pasamonte: He was extremely chained and manacled, has already served four years in the galleys. He has written his autobiography which he pawned. Apparently, he is a daring thief and a villain. He is sentenced to 10 years as a galley slave, a death sentence. I'm not sure what his worst crime is unless it is that he tells all in his book and speaks his mind?

The Don is very sympathetic towards the galley slaves, feels the punishments do not fit the crimes, and feels they are oppressed. I think he speaks for Cervantes. The Don demands their freedom and begins a ruckus in which the prisoners overcome their guards, with Sancho's help.

Naturally, the Don expects the freed slaves to pay their respects to his lady Dulcinea. Gines de Pasamonte expressed the prisoners' thoughts on this request: "...to ask this of us is like asking pears of the elm tree." The Don, stirred to wrath, has some choice words for Gines. The prisoners stone the knight and his squire and escape.

1amparo
May 19, 2006 - 11:21 pm
DQ turns sarcastic towards sancho. Sancho had pretended to imitate the knight, hence the knight uses the formal form of address as he would do to another knight or equivalent range as he, DQ.

Remember that once I said vos, vuestra merced, usía (short for “vuestra señoría”) etc., was used to address someone of high society instead of the familiar tú, or servant to master as form of respect?

Here is what DQ says: (I shall put in (---) the modern/familiar way so all of you who can read Spanish will understand and perhaps translate for the others, –your English being better than mine)

“pues porque os (te) burláis (burlas), no me burlo yo –respondió DQ-. Venid (ven) acá, señor alegre: ¿ pareceos (parece) a vos (ti) que si como éstos fueron mazos de batán fueran otra peligrosa aventura, no había yo mostrado el ánimo que convenía para emprendella (emprender) y acaballa (acabar)? ¿Estoy yo obligado a dicha, siendo, como soy, caballero, a conocer y distinguir los sones, y saber cuáles son de batán, o no? Y mas, que podría ser, como es verdad, que no los he visto en mi vida, como vos (tú) los habréis visto, como villano ruin que sois (eres), criado y nacido entre ellos. Si no, haced (haz) vos (tú) que estos seis mazos se vuelvan en seis jayanes, (jayán = tall, strong warrior) y echádmelos (echar) a las barbas uno a uno, o todos juntos, y cuando yo no diere con todos patas arriba, haced (haz) de mi la burla que quisiéredes (quieras).”

This is MY translation: (I am not using ‘ye’ and ‘sir’, just plain English)

“Well, since you make fun, I do not –replied DQ. Come here, happy man, does it seems to you that if these fulling hammers had been another dangerous adventure, I would not had shown the necessary courage to face it and finish it? Am I forced to such, being as I am, a knight, to know and distinguish the sounds, and to know which are fulling or not? And more, could it be, as it is true, that I have not seen them in my life, as you could have seen them, as low peasant that you are, servant born and bred in the midst of them. If not, you make that these six fulling hammers be transformed into six tall, strong warriors and throw them to my beard/face (barbas = beard), one by one, or all at once, and when I could not defeat them all, laugh at me as much as you want to.”

Is this what 's missing? Do you all have something similar to the above????

"patas arriba" means to defeat, KO someone..or oneself

Cheers.

Amparo

Deems
May 20, 2006 - 08:50 am
Amparo--How fortunate we are to have you here. You did write before about all the forms of YOU, but I needed to be reminded. Thank you for your complete response. Now we are talking about the same passage.

I think that Grossman's translation of the passage--and yes, that's the one I mean--is very close to what you have provided.

Would "Wise guy" be a possibility for "happy man"? Grossman has "merry man."

For those of you who aren't much interested in translation, I apologize. But since I speak/read only French and no Spanish beyond greetings and "How much will it be to take me to the airport?" because I taught in San Juan a couple of Junes, I am very interested.

From what was said in the article to which Joan provided a link and from my instinct (intuition?) Grossman's translation is pretty accurate while preserving the humor. ____________________________


Marni has brought up the sad information about galley slaves, based on Joan P's question above. I will have to read the remainder of that chapter before I comment myself, but I'm grateful for the information. Now all I need to do is read and catch up!

__________________________


What about everyone else? What do you think of the attack on the travelling barber? I liked the whole idea of a barber commuting from one village to the other because there wasn't a barber there. And it makes perfect sense to carry one's bowl on one's head if mounted on a donkey. What a picture Cervantes draws here. Cervantes father was a barber who did exactly this kind of work.

Don Quixote sees the helmet of Mambrino which he has vowed to take. I love Sancho's honest description: "What I see and can make out is just a man riding a donkey that's gray like mine, and wearing something shiny on his head."

Notice that when DQ captures the basin/helmet that Sanco is careful to control his laughter when DQ calls the basin a "sallet helmet" with half missing. When asked why he is laughing, he says, "It makes me laugh to think of the big head on that heathen owner of this old helmet, which looks exactly like a barber's basin."

It doesn't seem to me that Sancho is beginning to believe in the dream that DQ keep sketching but rather that he is learning to protect himself from DQ's anger but covering up the real reason for his laughter.

_________________


What say the rest of you?

~Maryal

Pat H
May 20, 2006 - 09:42 am
The sallet was the right kind of helmet to call the barber's basin, since it's kind of bowl-like

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/sallet.htm

Deems
May 20, 2006 - 10:16 am
Thank you, Pat H. Now I know what a sallet looks like and can understand why DQ says that the visor is missing!

I've been looking for a photo of a man's bathing cap from the 1920s --cannot find one. Shall I challenge you to do so?

Mippy
May 20, 2006 - 02:17 pm
In the header, you ask about the meaning of the episode of freeing the prisoners.
I think that once again Cervantes is using this means to talk about the iniquities of the government of his day and the unjust harsh punishments that were meted out.
In England at the approximately same time, and even later, prisoners were deported for what we would call minor crimes.
Thus not only in Spain were laws in harsh and unforgiving.
Cervantes thought he would be safe from prosecution by the government if DQ, a crazy knight,
railed against unjust punishment.
What do you think?

1amparo
May 20, 2006 - 07:04 pm
"Would "Wise guy" be a possibility for "happy man"? Grossman has "merry man."

Merry, happy yes. "wise guy"...not so. Although Sancho was wise, crafty, canny and witty, on this instance DQ calls him "alegre señor" and hence "happy, merry, joyful or cheerful" will do fine.

I cannot understand why those short phrases were termed as "difficult to translate"?. Mind you, having said that: I could not put those short phrases into "Shakespeare English"!, as it should properly be... I can read but not write old English!

Amparo

1amparo
May 20, 2006 - 07:52 pm

Deems
May 21, 2006 - 08:52 am
Amparo, thank you for all the additional information. I think it was just the various forms of "you" and other addresses that there aren't modern English equivalents for. No matter. We all understand that Sancho has his feelings hurt.

I think Sancho is a most interesting character. Yes, he has lots of common sense (and a very good heart--proof in next chapter), but he also has a hard time keeping secrets because they get "stale." Indeed they do; I have kept a few secrets in my life and by the time they came out they were very uninteresting indeed!

OK, I actually grabbed a little reading time before bed last night and am now through Chapter 22 in which DQ meets the chain gain, decides that they are unfortunates who must be rescued, rescues them, gets stoned by them, and ambles off the best he can to his next adventure.

You all have more or less covered the ground on forced labor in the galleys, work that Cervantes himself had to do at one point in his life.

But I think a little more is going on here. Cervantes gets the chance to criticize forced labor--or rather he states that surely the King wouldn't FORCE anything, but we also discover that these men who are being punished are convicted criminals. Although the first, for example, presents himself as a "lover" and thus naturally gains DQ's sympathy, it turns out that he has been a lover of fine linen, caught redhanded stealing it. All the others are in fact guilty of a crime.

It's the punishment that seems "cruel and unusual" to us.

We don't go on to Chap 23 until Monday, but I did read it. The story in that chapter continues into Chap 24 and maybe beyond.

O, forgot to mention Sancho's kind deed when he is moved to give some coins to the old man who likely will never see the light of day again once he gets to the galleys.

DQ is all about righting huge wrongs (as he perceives them), but Sancho does what little he can. I like that.

~Maryal

hegeso
May 21, 2006 - 04:45 pm
Hello! I am way behind because my nasty viruses are even more loyal to me than Sancho is to the Don. To keep up with you I should need much more than a Rocinante: at least a Boukephalos, but will not give up.

The only progress I made was picking up manchego cheese in a regular supermarket, quite accidentally. It is terrific!

Deems
May 21, 2006 - 06:31 pm
Hegeso, I am sorry to hear of your viruses. Had a long bout with bronchitis myself not long ago. Still have a tiny bit of the cough, but at least people don't leave the room when I walk in anymore. Perhaps they thought I had Bird Flu?

Joan P is off with her grandchildren, and we are moseying around here on the Spanish plain (Is it the plain, amparo?) seeing what might turn up.

JoanK
May 21, 2006 - 09:34 pm
AMPARO: HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY!!

HEGESO: sorry about your virusses. Hope you feel better.

I've always been curious as to why Spanish, French, and German have two forms of address and English does not. Am I right in saying the informal form is used to close friends, lovers, and children, but also by masters to servants, while servants use the formal form in reply? Is that true in Cervantes (until the quarrel).

I was appalled at Don beating Sancho at first, but decided it was just part of the slapstick humor. One thing is clear: Sancho has a sense of humor, but the Don has absolutely none. I thought that Sancho was laughing at both of them and thought that the Don would also see that they were funny.

I'm interested too in how the Don slides in and out of reality. I thought when he recognized the machinery that he might start to see reality, but he's back in his dream world with the helmet.

Here's a stretch. Was Cervantes commenting on the scariness of new technology. Maybe the Don didn't have to make it into a monster because it was already a monster.

marni0308
May 21, 2006 - 10:00 pm
Sometimes I feel that the Don isn't sliding out of reality and into a dream world, but instead is deliberately pretending, knowing exactly what he is doing. I'm getting the feeling he simply would rather pretend the world is a place where he can perform his knightly chivalric acts than to live his own real dreary existence. It seems to me he was unhappy with his life and immersed himself in romantic literature for some happiness and escape. Who did the Don have that he loved? I didn't see any particular concern for his daughter or anyone else in his household. There are those who are concerned for him, but I don't detect love towards him.

The Don's new life has added romance, excitement, danger, zest and adventure to a dull and lonely life. He has a goal, something to create meaning in his life. And he has a companion in Sancho. Perhaps Sancho will become a friend.

1amparo
May 21, 2006 - 10:20 pm
DQ did not have a daughter, he was celibate and pure (on that subject ), he had a niece. The "love" of his life was "Dulcinea del Toboso" and only because all "knights" were supposed to have a 'Lady of Their Dreams' for which, and on her name, fight wars and all sundry!.

Cervantes DID have a daughter.

Amparo

marni0308
May 22, 2006 - 08:58 am
Oops, niece, not daughter, sorry about that. Thanks for the correction. Yes, niece. And he was not married.

I wonder if the Don always WANTED to be celibate, though?? I bet he didn't. He didn't have a special person, wasn't married, had no children. I think that was part of the problem. He was lonely. He created his love, Dulcinea. He wants some romance in his life.

Deems
May 22, 2006 - 10:55 am
Afternoon, all--I think Quixote did want romance and adventure as you are suggesting. He got the idea for the particular adventure he would undertake from all those novels he had been reading, now forever gone to him. He lives out their plots in his head and rides them out on poor Rocinante.

Speaking of the horse, I felt almost as bad as I would have at 12 when I was in the full bloom of horse love when Barbaro's bone broke. What a terrible thing for a horse. Let's hope that his recuperation goes well. The surgery was successful, but there are many possibilities for infection. I was surprised to read in the Washington Post how much each leg bears. A horse the size of Barbaro carries 300 pounds on each leg when standing, but when walking, it increases to 500 pounds (I assume because two of the hoofs are off the ground). The jockey did a good job restraining him. Poor horse.

Maryal

Deems
May 22, 2006 - 10:57 am
As for celibacy, marni, you raise an interesting, if unanswerable, point.

I read just enough of my biography to know that Cervantes was married and that he lived most of his life apart from his family. It was not a happy marriage. What he did while "on the road" and not living at home, I haven't read about yet and I doubt that we know.

He certainly couldn't have written mistresses into a book published at the time.

But I can't imagine that he lived a celibate life. There is too much LIFE in him for that.

I suppose some might say that his art, his writing, was his love, but I'll bet there were a few women too.

Maryal

marni0308
May 22, 2006 - 03:31 pm
I agree, Maryal. Cervantes seems a man of the world in his writing. You can tell he's experienced a lot of life.

Do you think that any of the Don is Cervantes himself?

Deems
May 22, 2006 - 06:11 pm
marnie--I think that much of Cervantes and his experiences is in both Quixote and Sancho.

The writers I know take some characteristics from people they know, some from themselves, some from childhood, some from observation. One friend of mine loves to eat in different restaurants just so she can watch other people. I can almost see her taking notes in her head.

~Maryal

Pat H
May 22, 2006 - 08:51 pm
The helmet of Mambrino is the first adventure in which no one gets physically hurt, although the barber does lose his basin and harness, and maybe his donkey, too, if he isn't brave enough to come back for it.

Pat H
May 22, 2006 - 09:00 pm
Afterward, they both talk as though they believe in the fantasy of the princess and the lady, but they can't really think it's possible, since Sancho is married and the don is sworn to his Dulcinea. It must be just wistful thinking.

Joan Pearson
May 22, 2006 - 09:13 pm
Just in from Memphis, holding up the rear with Hegeso, struggling to catch up with y'all. Hopefully you are getting that virus behind you! I admire your determination to catch up! How about everyone else, are you ready to move on to Chapter 23?

I'm in the process of recovering from an overdose of the "Barbeee" virus... Went down to Memphis for a ballet recital and learned that four, nearly five year old Lindsay had been plotting all along to to lure me into Barbieland. Since you asked Maryal, here is a ballet picture...the best I was able to get from the audience on my camera. Please feel free to skip this grandma's ("Meanma's) pictorial- understandable!
Ballerina
Barbie

Joan Pearson
May 22, 2006 - 09:26 pm
You all did a great job answering Marni's question..."Do you think that any of the Don is Cervantes himself?" Right now I think I'm seeing two sides of Cervantes' personality in both Sancho and the Don, Maryal. It's weird reading the existing biographical material about someone who lived 400 years ago and trying to understand him through the facts and through his work, I think. We're getting to know a man who lived at the turn of the 15th/16th century! I find this ...awesome, for lack of a better word!

Thanks so much for taking the time to profile the "chain gang"...connecting them with the prisoners with whom Cervantes served time when in captivity. A biography I read told that he could have escaped a lot sooner, except he stayed back trying to arrange for the release/escape of ungrateful fellow prisoners.

Mippy, oh yes, I see Cervantes hiding behind the "crazy" knight criticizing the state and the church for unjust punishment and in equities. And he did!

At this point, are YOU relating more to Don Q or to Sancho? Are you one believes you can MAKE things happen by wishing and working to make your dreams come true? If this describes you, how do you react towards those who give you a hard time and scoff at your dreams? Wouldn't you put them off, put them down, maybe? Do you find it hard to allow anyone to get close to you for this reason? Is it hard to find a friend to follow your dream with you? I think DQ is more likely to find a "friend" than a romantic partner, however.

Or are you more of a realist like Sancho, who sees reality - the barber's basin, the sheep but secretly desires more out of life? What would you, if a realist, be able to give up to become a freer, more carefree sort?

JoanK points out that Sancho has a sense of humor. Do you all see that? Can he laugh at himself? He saw nothing funny at the blanket tossing - Don Q. did, as I recall. Do you think Cervantes could laugh at himself?

Look, the Don is offering Sancho the hand of one of the princess' ladies, the daughter of a powerful duke, no less! Sancho isn't laughing! By the way, what happens to his wife and family in this fantasy? "Wishful thinking," as PatH describes it. Can you just wish away part of your life and ride off into another?

I've been reading of Cervantes own wife...and see a parallel here with the fantasy:
"In 1584, Cervantes married Catalina de Salazar y Palacios, eighteen years younger than the thirty-seven year old man. Her family, although peasant, was ironically more well off than Cervantes'. Although their marriage produced no children, they raised Isabel de Saavedra, Cervantes' daughter from an earlier affair with a Spanish actress. Five years after the marriage, Cervantes and Catalina broke up." "(With the wife who is raising his daughter from an earlier affair!)
Our schedule says it's time amble on over to Chapter 23. Have you read it? It will be interesting to see where Cervantes is taking us with this developing relationship.

Mippy
May 23, 2006 - 03:22 am
Thanks for getting us back along the ol' dusty trail, JoanP ~
Especially good for me to think about our beloved knight, after my not-too-good "night"
as I try to get over an awful cold.

Your new header says: Has the knight forgotten that his library has been burned when he invites Cardenio to read the 300 volumes in his library? also, you asked which character we relate to...

For me, it is DQ, and I know that the loss of books still hurts years later ... in my case, when I got on with my adult life, I found a family member (too personal to detail) had discarded my small collection of books from childhood/adolescence, not asking if I would pay to have them shipped to me. All these years later, reading about the burned books of DQ, brought back the (could one say?) mourning for the lost books. So I will always identify with DQ for his love of his books.

Has the knight forgotten? Never. In his semi-crazy state, does he dream that the books will reappear? Perhaps, if it gives him comfort to imagine that his beloved collection of books still are waiting for him at home.
Does this make any sense?

Deems
May 23, 2006 - 08:00 am
Welcome back, Joan P!

And thank you for the photos of the little ballerina and the----er----afficionado (would that be afficionada since she is female?) of all things Barbie. She is one darling kid and I understand your wanting to see her every month or so. She must be growing at quite a rate now and you don't want to miss any of her changes.

I have jury call-in this afternoon after 4:00. If my number is on the list, I will have to go to the Montgomery County Courthouse and spend the day not being selected for a jury. Maybe I'll even make it onto a jury if I can put on my vague look! Once long ago I actually made it onto a jury but it was only a two-day case. By answering questions a little slowly and saying nothing about being in grad. school, I made it.

I don't mind if we go on to Chap 23 but you may have to wait for me if we go beyond that. I also have appointments today.

Maryal

marni0308
May 23, 2006 - 08:22 am
Welcome back, JoanP. What a beautiful beautiful little girl! And what a smile she has!

Deems
May 23, 2006 - 08:24 am
In the ballerina photo, I think Lyndsay looks a little like her grandmother!

marni0308
May 23, 2006 - 09:09 am
Re: Did Cardenio have good reason to be concerned about Fernando's designs on his beautiful Luscinda?

I found the story of Cardenio/Fernando/Luscinda to be very important. Their long story is related to the subsequent Lotario fictional story. Many chapters are devoted to these two interconnecting tales which are about friendship, love, lust, betrayal, duty, cowardice, and revenge. I hope I don't get the two stories mixed up! But we will have to end up comparing the two.

As we see, Cardenio certainly has good reason to be concerned about his false friend, Fernando, the cad and liar. Cardenio learns how Fernando treats women by his experience with the peasant girl. Fernando likes the challenge of sexual conquest. Women's reputations are not important to Fernando. We know, of course, that he will go after Cardenio's love, Luscinda.

Are all maidens considered helpless when pressured by handsome men? By rich men?

We have already seen with the shepherdess that this is not the case. However, it seems that the men in this book seem to feel that women fall promptly under the spell of a handsome or rich man and will betray their loves or husbands at the drop of a hat. And the men seem compelled to test their lovers' fidelity rather than to have faith. Naturally, that is asking for trouble!

In the case of Luscinda, who is unmarried, I would be more concerned about her parents' wishes. Fernando, after all, is the son of a Duke. He would be a prime catch for their daughter. They would probably not care about her love interest if someone of a more important family came along.

judywolfs
May 23, 2006 - 10:45 am
Oh my gosh! Cardino and Don Quioxite are psycho twins! They each slip in and out of reality as it pleases them, they both are obsessed with far away, unavailable women, they both are hopelessly romantic, wordy, self-obsessed, righteous and, upon occasion, unnecessarily violent.

I seem to recall reading a footnote that leads me to believe the Cardino/Fernando story is a "lost" Shakespearian play? Does anybody remember that? If the play is "lost" how would anybody be able to identify it in that story? ~JudyS

marni0308
May 23, 2006 - 11:25 am
Judy: You are no right! Righteous. That's a good word for them. I know I'm jumping ahead a bit, but Cardenio is such a loser. Going mad because he says his lover betrayed him! Hah! He was such a coward. And then he blames it all on Luscinda. Ugh!

judywolfs
May 23, 2006 - 01:56 pm
I jumped ahead a bit too - yesterday I finally had a little uninterrupted reading time, and, believe it or not, I'm at last starting to enjoy this book more and more. It's so much better when you don't have to snatch a moment here and there to quickly catch up on a chapter; when you can actually settle down and pay attention. Reading is such a luxurious wonder sometimes. I'm thinking DQ loked in a mirror and saw Cardino... ~JudyS

kidsal
May 24, 2006 - 03:11 am
DQ forgotten about his library? No, "it occurs to him he may no longer have the books due to malice of evil."

What does Sancho mean when he says "I'm a Turk?"

hats
May 24, 2006 - 03:34 am
I feel so sorry for Cardenio. Cardenio doesn't have what it takes to pull himself up by his bootstraps like Don Q. Don Q lost his fortune. This lemon he turned into a lemonade by deciding to become a savior of the masses or the helpless. Poor Cardenio just lives on the edge of society, going in and out of his mind. Cardenio is just living with his suffering, the wrongs he has experienced.

I also feel sorry for Cardenio because his friend, Fernando, betrayed him. I think that's harder to deal with than losing a woman he loved. Anyway, two strikes just sent Cardenio out of this world and into another world.

Joan Pearson
May 24, 2006 - 09:30 am
Great posts, this morning!

I'm wondering at the little introductions to the chapters. Cervantes wrote them, right? He must have put great thought into them. He's calling Chapter XXIII the "strangest adventure" to date. There are two things he could be referring to. It must be the association with Cardenio, but I found the new agreement with Sancho even stranger. Can this be our Don promising Sancho to avoid violence in the future as long as Sancho agrees not to ever tell anyone? I am dumbfounded!

He tells Sancho he has learned a lesson - might have avoided misfortune with the chain gang had he had patience. "Let's be more careful" he tells Sancho!!!!! Kidsal, I see sarcasm in Sancho's response - "You'll be more careful as readily as I'll turn into a Turk." Meaning he doesn't believe that the Don knows what careful means and doesn't expect that in the future.

You all seem to love Cardenio, or you hate him. He's lost the girl to the one with the money, with the greater social standing. We see this again and again in the novel. Marni, don't you see Marcela as an exception - she more represents the Golden Age goddess. Cervantes presents her as a strong woman insisting on her right to freedom. "I've no wish for subjugation" she says. As you point out, Luscinda is not as much to blame for choosing him as her parents'desire for social standing. Will we ever hear the rest of the story? Yet another interuption...when will Don learn to pay attention to the story teller?

Cardenio loves Luscinda, knows that Fernando ruined the farm girl with false promises and knows that the one he loves is in the same danger. I think I'm with you, Hats...he's lost his friend AND his love. I feel sorry for him and yet, he's doing nothing to protect her from Fernando. He's out in the wilderness, waiting to die. I wonder if the rest of his story explains this situation.

Judy - I have no footnote in the Raffel edition...did Google the Shakespeare play...found the following:
" In 1613, the King's Men twice performed a play called "Cardenio", based on a story from Cervantes' work. In 1653, an editor named Mosley published the play and said that the authors were Shakespeare and Fletcher. We have no surviving copies of the play so we cannot judge for ourselves.

Therefore we cannot know what Shakespeare thought of Cervantes, though we can surmise his delight. Cervantes, an unsuccessful dramatist, presumably had never heard of Shakespeare, but I doubt he would have valued Falstaff and Hamlet, both of whom chose the self's freedom over obligations of any kind." Guardian Review
Amparo - is Cardenio a Spanish name? It sounds Italian to me. Shakespeare used Italian names in his plays too - twins too! Judy, you see Cardenio and Don Q. as "psycho twins"...mirror images of one another. I've been thinking about that - and see some significant differences too. Do you wonder where Cervantes stands on man's lust? We have been seeing the Don quite lenient regarding man's lust in the previous chapter. Look at how he overlooked the chain gang's crimes of rape, incest, the pimp as undeserving of punishment.

Ahhh, Mippy, I empathize with your loss. Something similar happened to me too - too painful to mention the details. So it must be with the Don. He remembers those books in his library and finds himself inviting Cardenio to read them. "In his semi-crazy state, does he dream that the books will reappear?" I think it makes sense, Mippy - as the he slips in and out of his dream world and reality, it must sometimes be difficult to separate the two. It's significant that he does remember the burning, though, isn't it?

judywolfs
May 24, 2006 - 12:06 pm
Joan, you asked > Do you wonder where Cervantes stands on man's lust? We have been seeing the Don quite lenient...< and there's a lot of discussion regarding Cervantes and his times in general.

I have a tendency to deliberately disregard the author while I'm reading a book. I want the author to be invisible and I hope the book can stand on its own. If I like what I'm reading, I may become curious about the author, and perhaps start doing some kind of research on him/her. But not until after I decide about the book itself. Same with music or art - I'm more interested in the song or painting than I am in the artist. So, it might seem rather odd, but at this point, no, I deliberately don't wonder where Cervantes stands on anything. ~JudyS

sierraroseCA
May 24, 2006 - 12:26 pm
"But not until after I decide about the book itself. Same with music or art - I'm more interested in the song or painting than I am in the artist. So, it might seem rather odd, but at this point, no, I deliberately don't wonder where Cervantes stands on anything."

I feel the same way about movie stars or anyone famous, and am not in the least interested in what they think or their personal lives unless their "art" sparks some sort of curiosity that relates to the work they present.

But I do believe in this case DonQ is sort of autobiographical on Cervantes' part and knowing something about him helps to understand what he means in the book. But I think the book can stand on its own too.

In addition the book is cutting social commentary that is "safe" because DonQ is considered mad. It's a pretty clever way of saying what one has to say about society in times when saying almost anything could get you in a lot of trouble. Many writers in Russia did exactly the same thing under the communist regime, and often it worked because bureaucrats just "didn't get it" or missed the point.

Deems
May 24, 2006 - 12:36 pm
sierra--What you said about madness really hit me because madness is a wonderful disguise. Hamlet pretends to be mad after the ghost appears to him, while he scopes out the court and tries to figure out if Claudius is guilty of fratricide.

How convenient to be old crazy Alonso Quixana who has read himself absolutely mad with all those novels of chivalry. Who would pay any serious attention to the proclamations of such a man?

And comedy is always a way into difficult territory since the comic mode hides real intentions and only those witty enough to figure out just what is really being said or any the wiser. The others are simply being entertained.

I'm not to be a juror. The way they do it in Montgomery County, MD, is to send you a summons that has a number printed on it. I think mine was 246. Then you call and get a recorded message to see what numbers are being called in. This time it was numbers 1-115.

I really want to see if I can get on a jury. Last time I got a summons, about two years ago, I had number 22. I was very excited, assuming that they would start at 1 and go up to some number way above 22.

But no, that time they wanted something like numbers from 160-240. I feel completely out of synch.

Anyway, I now have some time to catch up on reading Don Q since I am not up to the rest of you.

~Maryal

Mippy
May 24, 2006 - 12:38 pm
double ditto, Judy!
(is there such an abbreviation? where's my Latin when I need it?)
I've actually been known, when reading a novel, to skip an editor's introduction ...gasp ... because it belabors the joy of reading a work of fiction.

However, an early novel like DQ needs a different approach.
When approaching a work of Shakespeare or another author as early as he, my mind jumps into questions like: what historical period is relevant, here ... or, was the lifetime of the author appearing in his novel ... or, what conflicts during that historical period will appear in this work?

That's a way of saying we should not let Cervantes be an invisible author here. We'll learn a lot, as we already have been doing, by looking for parallels between the life of Cervantes and the life of DQ.

Maryal ~ oh-my-gosh, I lived in Mont. Co. MD for 16 years.

Deems
May 24, 2006 - 01:04 pm
Mippy--Did they let you be on a jury?

Seriously, that's neat. Where did you live?

judywolfs
May 24, 2006 - 01:13 pm
I was watching a program (History channel or Discovery channel) about the Knights Templar a couple days ago. the intention was to tie that subject into the current DaVinci Code furor, During the program my brain kept sneaking glances towards our DQ discussion. I found myself wondering if any of the disbanded knights wound up in Spain. So I guess I should admit at least a passing interest in the historical background of DQ, and maybe just the teeniest little bit of curiosity about Cervantes as well. ~JudyS

Deems
May 24, 2006 - 01:38 pm
Judy--OK, I have you down for just the teenist bit of info about the historical background! I was listening to something on NPR the other afternoon that had a direct connection to DQ. I have been worrying my mind for a while now trying to come up with it and haven't yet.

Sigh.

The guest author on Fresh Air was discussing the House of Representatives and problem with redistricting among other things. None of this information seems very close to DQ which might be why I can't remember whatever it was.

Sigh.

Or maybe it was a reference to one of the other three books I'm reading.

Sigh.

Maryal

Mippy
May 24, 2006 - 02:23 pm
Maryal ~ got your speedy email, and will write ...
But speaking of reunions ... I'm trying to arrange my fall travel ...

How about a DQ Meeting/Reunion?
May'haps, this winding trail of DQ admirers might, somehow end up seeing each other at the October SeniorNet meeting in Arlington, VA ... and somehow find each other, even without windmills as signposts, and meet there?
Are any of you making plans to attend either day?
I'm trying for just Saturday, October 21st. Any comments?

Deems
May 24, 2006 - 03:29 pm
Mippy and all who are thinking of the SeniorNet meeting in October--The only day I could make it would be Sat the 21 since it will be the Fall semester by then.

Mippy
May 24, 2006 - 04:26 pm
Yes! Saturday the 21st of October!
Where will we all be in the saga of DQ by then?
I could make little windmill tags for us to wear to find each other. That's a joke, I think.

Anyone else planning to attend?
We will be on the road that week, and my husband has offered to take care of the dog, who would be worse than Sancho to have underfoot, so I don't have to bring Neufus, the black lab, into the meetings.

1amparo
May 24, 2006 - 06:48 pm
"is Cardenio a Spanish name?" .

No, I don't think so, at least I have never heard of it on an actual person. On Cervantes times it was fashionable to have Italian - Latin names, since Cervantes was in Italy for few years...?

That Cervantes/ DQ reunion has appeal, and it is few years (3 0r 4) since I was in the States and I don't, at this time have another trip planned. Could I come if I decided to?

Cheers.

Amparo.

Mippy
May 25, 2006 - 03:50 am
G'day, Amparo ~
To answer your question, and for anyone wondering about the October meeting, click on the Home page, scroll down, and follow Marcie's link, about planning for the
20th Anniversary Conference of SeniorNet.

hats
May 25, 2006 - 04:46 am
Mippy, thank you.

Joan Pearson
May 25, 2006 - 06:31 am
Yesterday as I was driving about, I kept thinking about Judy's comment: "I'm at last starting to enjoy this book more and more." This is so good to hear, Judy. I wonder how many of you are beginning to feel the same way as we near the end of the third part of volume I...the third of four parts? We seem to be heading into some hilarious scenes. Maybe even our JoanK will admit to some chuckles.

But right now we are talking about "grief" and how it can lead to madness. I have to wonder at Don Quixote's "grief" though. His face prompts Sancho to dub him "Knight of the Sad Face" ...and he now includes curing Cardenio's sadness as part of his knightly mission. Have we seen heard this from him before? For the life of me, I am unable to comprehend the reason for Don's grief.

Thank you for your comment on the Italian name, Cardenio, Amparo. Cardenio has gone mad because of his grief. Maryal, you said yesterday that "madness is a wonderful disguise. Hamlet pretends to be mad after the ghost appears to him. ...the comic mode hides real intentions and only those witty enough to figure out just what is really being said" Hmmm...is Cardenio pretending to be mad? Is Don Quixote pretending or is he slipping in and out of his world of make believe? Maybe feigning madness is one way to bring attention to one's grief. - - "Grief is easier to endure when shared.

The second the Don hears mention that Cardenio's Luscinda reads and admires his own superhero, Amadis of Gaul, Quixote interrupts Cardenio's tale to defend the honor of Queen Madasima and any other lady accused of having looked at another...actually accuses Cardenio of being a liar when he besmirches the reputation of a lady.

I really don't want to read too much of Cervantes' own biography into this story...but we do know this first volume is a parody - and certainly Cervantes' views are driving the action, don't you agree? Sierra I think his cutting social commentary is safe when mouthed by a madman...and I can't help but consider what Cervantes is really intending. Mippy, I think that awareness of history and the social conditions of the period provide a deeper understanding of what Cervantes is getting at. At the same time, like you, Judy, I can appreciate those who want to read the story strictly for entertainment. Maybe that's why the novel is still being read after 400 years? There's something for everyone - even without the delving.

Joan Pearson
May 25, 2006 - 06:32 am
...and oh, my wouldn't that be fun to meet face to face in October? Hahaha, maybe in costume! Or masks? We are in the process of planning this huge event, and as soon as we get the details of the schedule worked out, we will open a discussion here in the Books. It won't be long now. It's SeniorNet's 20th birthday celebration coming up - and the Online's 10th! We've been doing these book discussions here for ten years now! So there will be plenty for all. We're also trying to work in ways to share the live celebration with the online folks - so there really will be something for everyone.

But to answer your question, Mippy, a Quixote reunion on the 21st is doable for those planning the trip. I would love to get to meet you face to face - it's such fun, because in many ways, we already do know one another after our daily/weekely visits here. It's such a weird experience, because we won't know the faces, but we already know the people behind the faces! Faces are only masks?

Amparo, really, you'd make the trip? You just might win the prize for coming the greatest distance! Oh, and Mippy, I expect we will have finished our Quixote discussion by October, but am sure the knight's spirit will be with us for a long long time!

Mippy
May 25, 2006 - 06:50 am
Thanks!

Deems
May 25, 2006 - 06:52 am
Joan P--I think I should have gone a little farther on the madness comment. It is Don Quixote who is mad. Cervantes thus is at liberty to have his knight come up with all sorts of comments and beliefs that would not have been acceptable except under these circumstances.

You add comedy and you have a double protection. The author can always stand up and say, "But I was only having a bit of fun. Look at all those people reading chivalric romances. I thought I'd have a turn at it myself. Did you miss the part where I made it absolutely clear that my hero is an egg or two short of an omelet?"

As for Cardenio, his is the madness of L-o-v-e. He has lost his darling Luscinda to another man. Worse still, a man he loved and trusted, Fernando. It would make perfect sense to Quixote that love had driven him mad since part of the Courtly Love tradition includes lovers who have lost their senses because of being rejected.

Two very different kinds of madness here, it seems.

~Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 25, 2006 - 07:23 am
Thanks, Maryal. Different reasons for the madness, but both madmen get attention.

OK, here's my question du jour - Why is Don Quixote "sad"? Do you see him as "sad"? Is his grief easier to endure with Sancho at his side?

And dare I ask, is Cervantes sad as he writes this comedy? Is this novel is way of sharing his grief? Is this comedy? All right, that's six questions. Like Cervantes, math is not my thing!

sierraroseCA
May 25, 2006 - 08:21 am
. . . I see him as disappointed in life and his society, but not sad. His face looks sad because I see him also as very thin (cachectic actually) with deep lines in his face and a hooked nose that make his face only look sad, sort of like a skull with skin over it. Actually I see him as very positive because he truly believes he can have an effect on his society and actually right wrongs because he has good intentions.

Whatever his adventures are, good or bad, I believe they are easier to endure with someone like Sancho by his side. Sancho is loyal and practical, someone to talk to and discuss things with. Even DonQ is not an island entire to himself. Some marriages are like that, with one partner being active and impractical, and the other being loyal but very practical. Even their squabbles remind me of a marriage.

I don't think Cervantes is sad at all while writing this. I think he has comments to make about his society because he is frustrated and angry at the way things are. But he cannot say them directly. So he uses madness and comedy to say what he has to say. It's a very clever disguise.

His method still applies to this day in those places where society is restricted to the point of being dangerous, and most of the criticisms he has of his society apply equally well to ours.

Deems
May 25, 2006 - 08:29 am
I agree, Sierra. I don't think Cervantes was sad while writing. He may very well have been sad many times in his life, but not while writing. The very act of writing, especially once you get going, takes you into a place where there is intrigue and adventure. Inside the writing, one is in another world (sort of like Don Quixote is in another world) and it is somewhat wrenching to "return" to the "real" world of phones and making meals.

I have had this experience myself and I know a few real writers who have told me of the same experience. In that other world there is sadness only when writing about a sad experience of a character but the writer him/herself is not sad but engaged.

It's hard to explain and I'm not doing a very good job of it. But, no, I don't think Cervantes was sad while writing.

Don Quixote is so caught up in the world of right wrong and fighting for all the weak that he feels no sadness. Pain, yes, but sadness, no.

I like Sierra's description of why Quixote looks sad to Sancho.

~Maryal

hats
May 25, 2006 - 08:39 am
I don't think Don Q is sad either. Don Q is involved in a set goal, to right the wrongs done to others. Having a goal, a goal not reached yet, makes a person feel satisfied, content and regenerated. I do wonder what will happen to Don Q if his goal is reached. Some people become depressed after they have mastered their goal, climbed a mountain, published a book or won the gold at the Olympics.

Deems
May 25, 2006 - 08:45 am
Hats--How right you are about becoming depressed after achieving a goal. What shall we call it? Post-success depression?

hats
May 25, 2006 - 08:52 am
Maryal, sounds good to me.

Joan Pearson
May 25, 2006 - 10:27 am
So, you don't see him as "sad"...though his sad face he's painted on his shield. Another instance where the opposite is true? He does see it as his duty to remedy Cardenio's unhappiness and to help him lament if no remedy can be found.

It seems to me that the Don has set his sights so high - to right all wrongs and injustices, that he will never be the victim of post-success depression! Now, add to his list his goal to bring comfort to Cardenio.

So, Cardenio has become furious with the knight for calling him a liar, hurls a rock at him in a fit of madness and goes back into the mountains. Our Don is determined to follow him, to hear the end of the story, yes, but now has developed a new plan that will prove his love to Lady Dulcinea. Shall we move on to Chapter 25 to continue this latest adventure? How on earth will he get Cardenio to resume his story?

Deems
May 25, 2006 - 12:03 pm
O yes, do let's move on to Chap 25 to hear the end of the story. I will read it tonight.

Do we have any other takers?

By the way, I read the link to Grossman's translation that Joan put on here a few posts back. There was an introductory bit by someone (was it an excerpt from Bloom?) that said that while Shakespeare certainly appreciated Cervantes enough to borrow a plot for Cardenio (the lost play--and we don't know if maybe it was Webster who first discovered Cervantes, do we?) that Cervantes wouldn't have enjoyed Hamlet or Falstaff (it's the mention of these two characters that makes me think of Bloom), but I disagree.

I'll bet everyone was wondering if that sentence would ever end.

I agree that Cervantes would not have appreciated Hamlet, but I think he might have loved Falstaff as a character and that he might have incorporated some of his personality into a character.

Queen Elizabeth liked Falstaff so much that she wanted to see him in love thus causing Shakespeare to write another play. Talk about responding to your audience.

Maryal

sierraroseCA
May 25, 2006 - 05:21 pm
. . . the way I paint. It's another world, and all that surrounds me is melted into oblivion. Time flies. Aches and pains are ignored. I don't hear the phone ring. Bills are forgotten for the time being, and so are all quarrels. It's a wonderful place to be for the time that it lasts. I bet Cervantes enjoyed himself immensely with this novel, and I bet the characters "grew" as he progressed.

And yes, I find that after a project is finished I often go into a sort of depression or "empty space" for a while. It's like a catharsis. But life goes on and one must participate in it, and as one participates the creative cup fills up again, until I go into another creative bout in which I can put out tons of work, sometimes even without sleep, because it flows from my fingers---until I'm empty again.

It's a process that is very difficult for families to understand if they are not creative themselves. These days, being retired and alone, I love to indulge myself in that process.

Deems
May 25, 2006 - 08:19 pm
Sierra--Yes, that's exactly it. My daughter paints and she goes to that same place where the real world can't get through. Such an experience, but it takes (me) so much work to get there.

1amparo
May 25, 2006 - 08:56 pm
For the hint about October 20-21 Conference.

Yes, I wish to attend and have sent Marcie an email as there are two Hiltons that I can see in Arlington; one is “Hilton Crystal City at Washington Reagan National airport; 2399 Jefferson Davis H’way, Arlington Virginia 22202” ( I shall arrive at Washington Dulles International on 19 October). The other “Hilton Arlington, 950 North Stafford St., Arlington Virginia 22203”. Anyone knows which of the two is the one to be used?

And, I would not mind to share room with someone, non smoker, from SeniorNet group. I don’t snore…(that I know of ), and I am tidy .

I got a week till cheap fares expire. I hope I can sort out hotel before then.

Cheers.

Amparo

1amparo
May 25, 2006 - 09:03 pm
I have been asked to present one of mine at an exhibition next July. Going to do so for just a giggle and it will not be for sale!

Amparo

Mippy
May 26, 2006 - 08:28 am
Amparo ~
The Hilton Arlington, 950 North Stafford St., Arlington Virginia 22203 is the one !!!
I am so very happy you are able to travel to VA and to attend!
I am staying at my son's house in Reston, VA, so will not be a roommate for anyone, except his cat.

Marcie ~ Should we be posting all this "chat" in a certain room?

JoanK
May 26, 2006 - 08:29 am
HAY, MIPPY -- PatH and I have lived in Montgomery county off and on for over forty years -- in Bethesda, Gaithersburg, and Montgomery Village. JoanP lives in nearby Virginia. This area is full of Seniornetters. AMPARO: YOU'RE COMING! HOORAH!

It would be great to meet you all. So far something has prevented me from coming to all the get-togethers, so I haven't met any of you face to face have mobility problems, but will find a way to get there (God willing and the creek don't rise) if we meet somewhere that is wheelchair accessible.

Deems
May 26, 2006 - 08:52 am
I'll go check and see if there's a "room" yet for talking about the SeniorNet meeting in October and then will come back.

judywolfs
May 26, 2006 - 09:35 am
Perhaps in Cervantes' time, madness was rather common and acceptable or even admirable under certain circumstances (for example, if one were rejected as a lover). I think both Don Q. and Cardinio are actually mad, and that they also are theatrically playing their “poor me” victim roles to the hilt. Feigning madness? No. DQ really believes he’s a knight, doesn’t he? Perhaps they are each hiding behind their madness, exaggerating it and displaying it more than necessary; but not feigning it. It's interesting that people seem to be quite willing to put up with these madmen; leaving food for them, letting the off the hook from paying for the room at the inn, listening respectfully to long, rambling stories while also plotting to try to get them cured of their madness.

Why is the knight sad, what is his grief? I don't think DQ is sad or grieving. My initial take on his appearance described in translation as “sad” is more towards “pitiful” or “unfortunate” rather than unhappy or melancholy. Maybe "sad" is a polite way of describing an exceptionally unattractive man, instead of saying "ugly". ~ JudyS

Joan Pearson
May 26, 2006 - 11:46 am
"Perhaps in Cervantes' time, madness was rather common and acceptable or even admirable under certain circumstances."
Judy, that's something to think about...not just during Cervantes' time, but also in the earlier medieval time...Roland, of the "Song of Roland"...Charlemagne's nephew, was much admired by Don Q....also, Don Q's major hero. Amadis of Gaul,(He Who Despairs)- he didn't carry on as violently as did Roland, but his flight to the wilderness to weep and pray was admirable. Were they feigning madness? Or trying to impress, get attention? Do you see Cardenio as feigning madness? At this point, I'm thinking that Cardenio's tale is Cervantes' parody on the tales of knight-errantry.

In these chapters we see the Don considering both forms of mortification. He seems to have chosen Roland's dramatic form of penitence...are any of you familiar with the Song of Roland? I remember a lot of warring, but no deceiving lady love. Wasn't he married? One of the most puzzling scenes in Chapter 25 - maybe someone can explain or do you have footnotes on the scene where Don removes his trousers and insists that Sancho watch him somersault in the nude - so he can report this to his lady love?

Yep, Dore sees him nekkid too! I thought I had stayed up too late when I read that the first time. Cervantes seems familiar with the story of how Roland goes mad when he finds proof that his lady Angelica the Fair has been "guilty of vile behavior." But I'm not sure if DonQ is imitating Roland here, or if he made this up himself to impress Dulcinea.

Judy, don't you think the Don is feigning madness so that Sancho can impress Dulcinea? When Sancho asks him why he should go crazy as no lady has rejected him, DQ tells him that she will see what he's done without cause and imagine what he might do if he really had one! When he performs an act of lunacy for Sancho (the somersaults in the nude), do you see him as mad, or feigning madness?

Amparo, this is wonderful news! Yes, the Hilton on Stafford St, not out by the airport, is in my backyard (6 blocks from my house). This should be much fun - JoanK, you'll bring your twin too, right? Maryal, no "chat room" yet, but we are working on it as we speak. You all will be the first to hear about when it opens, as you have been the catalysts!

Meanwhile, back in the Sierra Morena mountains, Don Q. is carefully wording his letter to his lady...and it is becoming clear to Sancho just who Dulcinea really is!

Deems
May 26, 2006 - 04:37 pm
Joan P--Thanks for telling us about the place to talk about the SeniorNet meeting. I couldn't find it when I looked.

And we are now confronted with reality coming up against Quixote's story what with the true identity of the peasant girl upon whom he has built his idealized version of all womanhood, the lovely and unattainable Dulcinea!

I love the description that Sancho gives of Aldonza Lorenzo. She's strong as a horse with a voice loud enough to summon workers from many fields away. And strong enough to pull DQ out of a mudhole should he become stuck.

"I know her very well," said Sancho, "and I can say that she can throw a metal bar just as well as the brawniest lad in the village. Praise our Maker, she's a fine girl in every way, sturdy an a horse, and just the one to pull any knight errant or about to be errant, who has her for his lady, right out of any mudhole he's fallen into! Damn, but she's strong!"

I'm also much taken by Quixote's explanation that many knights made up their ladies in order to have someone to write their poems and complaints to, "so that people will think of them as lovers and as men who have the capacity to be lovers."

That last bit got me thinking about men and locker room talk and bragging about all their prowess with such and such young woman, a cock of the walk kind of bragging about sexual conquests that many of them are making up.

When I first discovered that such talk went on--I was in high school and a boy told me--we were friends, I was shocked though I didn't let on. Can't remember why he decided to confide in me, but the boys in our school were big into bragging about all the girls they had "had." He said it was almost impossible to tell who was telling the truth and who was making it all up. But no guy wanted to be left out.

Anyway, Quixote seems quite sane to me here as he willingly admits to Sancho that Dulcinea is Aldonzo Lorenzo, and that she is as beautiful and worthy to be praised as any princess because he, by his imagination, has made her so.

Makes me wonder if DQ is also making a comment on the art of writing here as well. After all, if the imagination is key, and the good writer must make us believe by imagining reality, then all good writing is the product of the inventive imagination.

~Maryal

1amparo
May 26, 2006 - 09:24 pm
I got E-Ticket and Travel Insurance with me. Better not change dates now 'cos I get no refunds. ansd since my arrival time in Arlington is 8.30 pm I am coming a day earlier; Wed the 18th.

Hooray & Albricias!, JoanK I gather you are also coming. Isn't this superb?! Can't wait for October to arrive.

Amparo

ALF
May 27, 2006 - 09:40 am
I am going to catch up with ye merry travelers this weekend. Truly, like Sancho, I aim to follow our hostesses into the sunset. (I think I've been riding that poor Barbararo horse.) I am up to Chapter XXI and will be ready for this weeks assignment.

Thanks Maryal for inquiring about Bill. He had a bit of a set back. The doc drained his knee and shot it full of Cortisone. Back to cardiologist this week- whew-- run- run, but my horse will pick up speed. I have just spent the better part of the morning reading all of the posts. You are all "right on" with this novel, full of articulate explanations and wonderful insights.

It's a good thing I'm not to be graded on this story.

The Wayward one

Deems
May 27, 2006 - 10:00 am
Welcome back, Andy and that's wonderful news about your trip, Amparo. I don't think the SeniorNet Gathering will be moved or cancelled since it is all of SeniorNet and not some local thingie.

I'll be back later. Time to swim.

Going out to dinner tonight. Yay.

~Maryal

Joan Pearson
May 28, 2006 - 12:31 pm
Deep in the wilderness of the Sierra Morena mountains, we are setting aside time to remember our fallen soldiers, their families and the great sacrifice for our freedom.

I've been googling the lengthy "Song of Roland" and see a number or references to acts of penitence in this old medieval saga...involving torn garments and nakedness. This passage is located towards the end in Canticle CCV~
As the king in quest of Roland speeds,
The flowers and grass throughout the meads
He sees all red with our baron's blood,
And his tears of pity break forth in flood.

He upward climbs, till, beneath two trees, The dints upon the rock he sees. Of Roland's corpse he was then aware;

Stretched it lay on the green grass BARE.

No marvel sorrow the king oppressed;
He alighted down, and in haste he pressed,
Took the body his arms between,
And fainted: dire his grief I ween. Song of Roland
Clearly this is one of the great sagas that Don Q. is familiar with. But the laughable positions - the somersaults wearing only shirt tails and his skin are all Cervantes - reminding us again that his is writing parody.

Sancho is off to deliver a description of Don's antics to Dulcinea and the whole story turns into an comedy of errors. And what a gal she is! Can't imagine how she will respond to Sancho. Anybody's guess, I guess. Maryal, I too was struck at Don Q's honest confession to Sancho - that he had only seen Aldonza four times in his life - that his love for her has always been platonic - had he ever spoken to her? I don't think so. And still Sancho goes on to deliver this message.

There is a lot of double-speak here, it's hard to tell what Sancho believes now. I loved it when Don Q tells Sancho he is hardly saner than he is.

Andy, will linger here in the mountain wilderness waiting for Sancho to return with Dulcinea's reply...and for you and the rest of our merry band.

ALF
May 28, 2006 - 05:03 pm

marni0308
May 28, 2006 - 07:03 pm
I'm with you!

hats
May 29, 2006 - 01:30 am
I can't wait to hit the road again. Where is the rest of the gang? Amparo are you here?

1amparo
May 29, 2006 - 04:48 am
I am here. Don't know about the others.

It has been a busy day today, and another busy day from early tomorrow. I am off to bed. I suppose some of you will be getting OUT of bed!

Cheers all.

Amparo

Joan Pearson
May 29, 2006 - 06:13 am
T'is a long busy weekend. I like the idea of a shared moment of remembrance in silence -
"for one minute at 3 p.m. local time in order to reflect on the sacrifices made by others for our nation."
I am really looking forward to everyone's return here tomorrow. It's lonely in these hills! After hearing Sancho's description of his extreme acts of madness and penitence won't everyone be surprised to find the now-restrained Don Q deep in prayer and meditation? Do you suppose he and Cardenio will keep one another company? I can't decide who is more out of his mind, Don Q or Cardenio.

JoanK
May 29, 2006 - 11:46 am
I'm here too.

I can't decide whether Cardinio's story is supposed to be serious, or another takeoff. At the wedding. it seemed to me that both Cardinio and Lucinda were waiting for each other to act. Obviously, there will be more. We have to find out what the letter that Lucinda had was about.

Mippy
May 29, 2006 - 02:19 pm
I'm here too, and will try to catch up in the morning.

Well noted: a shared moment of remembrance in silence.

Pat H
May 29, 2006 - 05:08 pm
Amparo, I couldn't resist a meeting so close to home. I'll try to drag JoanK there if we can solve the mobility problems. I'm fine in that respect at the moment--my shiny new hip works a treat. You will be disappointed in my ability in Spanish, but not, I think, in my respect for the beauty of the language.

Deems
May 29, 2006 - 05:56 pm
Amparo--I am thinking of convincing my daughter to come with me to the gathering in October. She has been taking Spanish two times a week (before work) for six-eight months now and I'll bet she would love to see if she could converse with you.

Maryal

Deems
May 29, 2006 - 05:57 pm
Pat H--I can bring the Jeep as long as we can solve mobility problems for Joan for short distances on the sidewalk. In the Jeep you can sit up straight and she could have the passenger seat in front.

Joan Pearson
May 29, 2006 - 06:17 pm
What a relief to hear that you are on your way back on the mountain trail. It's both lonely and cold here at night...even with pants on!

JoanK, I find Cardenio's story so familiar, that I'm thinking it is one of the stories that Cervantes finds maddening - We have the well- to-do young lady whose parents see a better match for her in a richer Fernando. Just because he is rich, doesn't mean he is of better character though. She of course is helpless, and continues to proclaim her love for Cardenio - who believes her to unfaithful because she marries Fernando.

Why didn't Cardenio act? Was he really waiting for Luscinda to kill herself to prove to her father and to Fernando that she loved him more? Why did he stand there and wait for her to say "I do" - and then turn on her?

JoanK, we still don't know what was in that letter by the end of Part III. What's your guess?

I'm thinking back to the cliffhanger that separated Part I and Part II.. remember that we were introduced to a new narrator at the start of Part II, but the action from Part I continued...we weren't left hanging!

marni0308
May 29, 2006 - 09:20 pm
Re "Why didn't Cardenio act? Was he really waiting for Luscinda to kill herself to prove to her father and to Fernando that she loved him more? Why did he stand there and wait for her to say "I do" - and then turn on her?"

I had the same questions. I thought Cardenio and Luscinda had a deal that when it got to a certain point in the wedding ceremony, Cardenio (who was peeking) was supposed to jump in and .....do SOMEthing, at least....Say he didn't want her to marry Fernando? Tell Luscinda's parents what a creep Fernando was? ANYthing!

But Cardenio didn't ever jump in to stop the ceremony. It really was like he was waiting to see if Luscinda would kill herself rather than marry someone other than Cardenio. Cardenio was Mr. No-Action. Then he ran off. Unhappy Luscinda was stuck with the aftermath and she must have been quite confused.

Cardenio heads off to the mountains and acts like he has gone insane. He tells people in his moments of lucidity that he is mad because his lover betrayed him and married another. All I could think of this was, "What a dope!" He didn't deserve Luscinda.

The story of Cardenio and Luscinda is just like one of the romances that the Don has enjoyed, although Cardenio is not exactly the incarnation of a chivalric knight - at least not yet! But it's like Cervantes has a chance to create his own story of romance. It's a story within the story. Sort of like reality and fiction are merging for the Don and Sancho.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next on the mountain. How are our stories of love and revenge going to turn out? Will they have happy heroic chivalric endings?

1amparo
May 30, 2006 - 03:18 am
Dear JoanK, Pat H, Deems and all of you.

I thinks it will be a dream to meet with you. With half Spanish there, and half English here we are going to communicate beautifully and have great times.

Surely most cities, now adays, do have malls and pedestrians walk ways wheelchair and disability user friendly. Besides, aren't we seniors able to conquer anything we set ourselves to do? There is not such thing as "NO"; that's my motto.

I have booked myself into a hotel right in the centre of Washington DC, so I can have at close hand all those things a tourist usually do.

Cervantes: my lips are I shall say nothing, nothing!

Amparo

Deems
May 30, 2006 - 06:40 am
Morning, folks!

I am disgusted with Cardenio and not at all sorry for him. We don't have his whole story yet (that old fox, Cervantes, holds back again), but honestly, IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM, isn't it?

All about how he was betrayed by Don Fernando.

And about how the faithless Luscinda (she, who even he admits has been carefully sheltered and trained to always obey her parents) doesn't even have the grace to stab herself with that dagger or at least cry out, "No, no, I already love another!"

Well poo on him. Not one ounce of pity or compassion does he get from me.

Fortunately, we have the encounter of the priest and the barber with out knight errant to look forward to.

I loved the description of their plan to fool him, their disguises, the exchange of costumes when the priest decides that cross-dressing just isn't appropriate for his position and especially Sancho's laughter when he sees them all dressed up.

They mean well, of course. They mean to restore the knight to his good senses, to tame him and bring him home.

On to Chapter XXVIII later today. I'm a little behind in my reading due to the long weekend.

Adieu, Cardenio, fare thee well. May you perish out there in the mountains.

Deems
May 30, 2006 - 06:40 am
Happy Birthday, Joan P, partner and friend!

hats
May 30, 2006 - 06:58 am

Mippy
May 30, 2006 - 07:22 am
JOANP ~ HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!

Do make a Wish !!!

Joan Pearson
May 30, 2006 - 07:31 am
Why, thank you! I'm having quite an early bird birthday! Little four year old granddaughter called at 7 am and asked me how I liked my cuckoo clock present!(???)

Mippy, my wishes are already coming true...you all are back on the trail for the party...and apparently, I'm to receive a cuckoo clock! What more can I wish for! Maryal, since several of you are behind because of the weekend, I've tweaked the schedule. You've got until June 1 to move into Part IV. How's that?

Amparo knows something about Cervantes that we don't know! Shall we tickle her to get her to tell? I can't help but think that Cervantes is telling us something - something important with this little drama (big drama?) of the love(?) triangle! I remember some where in this chapter Cervantes writes there are two reasons people fall in love. Beauty and reputation. Fernando falls in love with Luscinda's beauty. In Cervantes' book, that is a valid reason. Is Cardenio in love with her reputation? Is Cervantes mocking this whole concept of "love"?

Marni, maybe Luscinda didn't go ahead with the plan and kill herself because she was waiting for Cardenio to pull out his sword and defend her? When he didn't make a move, she went ahead and married Fernando? Cervantes portrays his Cardenio insane in the mountain, not because he has lost his love, but because his reputation has been tarnished? If Cervantes goes on to end his story with a "happy heroic chivalric ending," I'm guessing it will be tongue in cheek - very obvious tongue in cheek.

In the back of my mind, I'm seeing him making fun of the old tales..but not sure yet about his motivation.

Maryal - I'm loving all the hilarious, comic scenes too...from the time DonQ sends Sancho with the letter to the plot to convince Don Q. that the priest, no, the barber is a damsel in distress to bring him home! And Maritornes praying the rosary because of this "enormous Christian undertaking." I've given up trying to understand what Sancho thinks about his master's sanity. He's enjoying the whole scenario too! I can't wait to hear JoanK's response to Cervantes' impossibly funny scenes! He makes you just throw up your hands and give in to laughter. Just like Sancho!

judywolfs
May 30, 2006 - 08:06 am
Happy Birthday Joan. How very appropriate to receive a cuckoo clock as a gift while reading a book about a cuckoo knight.

Alf said she was glad she wasn't getting graded on this story. Me too! Actually, I think I would do ok on the plot/action part. But my gracious, the meaning and worthwhile-ness of it are very elusive.

About the different "authors" taking turns in reporting DQ's illustrious adventures: I'm thinking Cervantes may have used that style to make the tale of don Quioxite appear more legitimate - a bit like the "proof" some use regarding the letitimacy of the new testament - if many different writers report the same stories then the stories seem more credible. ~ JudyS

marni0308
May 30, 2006 - 09:09 am
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOANP!

Re "Fernando falls in love with Luscinda's beauty. In Cervantes' book, that is a valid reason. Is Cardenio in love with her reputation?"

I don't think Fernando is in love with her at all. He gets from women what he can get. It's his character. He knows she belongs to his friend, so he wants her. Yes, her beauty helps. She's desirable to Fernando because she is already taken. He likes the challenge. Also, her family has money. Isn't Fernando the 2nd son of the Duke, not the first? He probably has to marry someone with money.

-----------------

Cervantes' description of the barber and priest are just absolutely hysterical. I cracked up about the fake beard - the tail - that falls off.

ALF
May 30, 2006 - 10:11 am
Well, I have never considered myself a romantic but when I read of Cardenia's live for Luscinda, I felt like I was in the midst of Romeo and Juliet. I was certain that she would commit suicide and he would fall on his own sword. Hmmm? What happened to this ending? I agree, Joan I think Fernando wishes for what is out of his reach- the impossible, the old son of a ^&*+ DUKE.
Marni, you wrote "Cervantes' description of the barber and priest are just absolutely hysterical. I cracked up about the fake beard - the tail - that falls off." Again, that reads like a Shakespere play. Which one Maryal, where everybody pretends to be someone else- total farce?

Mippy
May 30, 2006 - 11:25 am
Here's a link to one of Shakepeare's funniest comedies, Twelfth Night, which is loaded with mistaken identities, and includes one of his looniest characters, Sir Toby Belch:

Twelfth Night

ALF
May 30, 2006 - 02:06 pm
Yes, that's it, Mippy, The 12th Night. Thank you.

JoanK
May 30, 2006 - 05:01 pm
I did laugh, and laugh again when they changed roles. I was disappointed when they just took their costumes off. I hope they'll get them on again before the Don shows up.

Deems
May 30, 2006 - 05:11 pm
I just hit a sentence that really caught my attention and am wondering what those other translations out there have for it.

Dorotea is telling her tale of seduction by Don Fernando.

She calls her maid into her bedroom to witness all of Don Fernando's promises and oaths to marry her. Here's the sentence:

"He called down on himself a thousand future curses if he did not keep his promise to me; tears filled his eyes again and his sighs increased; he clasped me even tighter in his arms, from which he had never released me; then my maid left the room, I ceased to be one, and he became a traitor and a liar."

Love the last part of that sentence. . ."then my maid left the room, I ceased to be one. . . "

Boy, things sure did happen quickly, didn't they?

Other translations?

~Maryal

(I hope that cuckoo clock has a silencer on it. I had a cuckoo clock once.)

1amparo
May 30, 2006 - 06:27 pm
HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOANP!!!!!

Amparo

Joan Pearson
May 30, 2006 - 06:46 pm
What happened to it, Maryal? Sounds as if you shot it late one night! I've had a super birthday...yes, I did get a cuckoo clock from all the grandchildren. It has some sort of light sensor on it so it doesn't do its cuckooing at night. Good one, Judy...cuckoo clock, cuckoo knight - cuckoo grandma.

The kids (my sons) gave me another clock, a rooster clock that goes cockadoodledoo on the hour too, except it goes off 15 minutes too early and I can't adjust it. I'm going to have to work on it so they will both do their thing at the same time. The rooster clock goes off round the clock.

Hey, thanks for all the birthday wishes in here today, everyone! (That's a fancy font, Amparo! Very festive! Can the rest of you see it on your screens?) I thought of you all at dinner - went to a Spanish tapas restaurant. One of the tapas was this wonderful catalan bread with anchovies and manchego cheese Isn't it a small, small world?

Cardenio intends to die in the mountains...though he has ruled out suicide. I think that his reason is significant...maybe it is the reason Luscinda didn't take the dagger to herself?

Maryal, I promise to check the Raffel translation for the passage you mention from Part IV on Thursday. We are still waiting for some of our mates to catch us on the trail.

Deems
May 30, 2006 - 07:00 pm
Joan P--Sorry, I realized, too late that I had moved into a chapter we're not doing yet. Oooops.

A cuckoo clock and a rooster clock? Sounds like a conspiracy to me. To drive you nuts. All those sounds, and if one clock is just a little off, then you get noises that don't overlap but that keep going. Actually, that might be better than overlapping.

The cuckoo clock was my husband's grandmother's or grandfather's. Apparently everyone wanted it and somehow my mother-in-law nabbed it and sent it to us for Christmas. It was the most obnoxious cuckoo--no modern improvements like a light sensor. It had a pendulum and I think you had to wind it (you can see I'm blocking some memories here!) Anyway after enduring it for a while I sent it to my husband's Aunt Phyl who was one of the contenders for it in the first place. She was very happy to get it and I was glad to be shut of it.

There was something wrong with the little bird too. It was missing a foot or a wing on one side--something.

Family antique. I'd probably be rich if I'd kept it.

JoanK
May 30, 2006 - 07:03 pm
Oh, dear, I completely missed that passage in Raffel. So Lucinda lost her virginity. I should have guessed. That makes her actions understandable. Once that happens (whether or not she's pregnant -- she probably is) she has to marry. If whats-his-name doesn't claim her she has to marry the Cad.

This is beginning to look like what Gillian Roberts called a "have sex and die" plot -- the heroine has sex, and then of course the author has to kill her off. I get sooooo tired of them!!! At least in some of them, she gets to enjoy it (only once of course -- we can't give her more than a few minutes of happiness). AAAAAAAAAARRRGH!

Joan Pearson
May 30, 2006 - 07:15 pm
Oh no, JoanK...Luscinda lost her virginity too? Where? When? Is this why Cartenio is beating himself up in the Sierra Morena mountain? I missed that part too! Are you still in Chapter XXVII(Have I mentioned how happy I am that you are finally smiling now?)

I was interested in the references to the rosary...the sly little remark that Maritornes promised to pray the rosary for the enormous Christian undertaking was one. And who was it who fashioned a rosary out of his shirt? At any rate I was quite curious so I looked up "rosary"...curious as to why Cervantes is mentioning it more than once. I found two interesting sources -
The Rosary defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto. "At that very moment, at dawn on October 7, 1571-- as Vatican Archives later revealed--Pope Pius V, accompanied by many faithful, was praying the Rosary in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. From dawn to dusk the prayers continued in Rome as the Christians and the Muslims battled at Lepanto. When it was all over the Muslims had been defeated. Of some 270 Moslem ships, at least 200 were destroyed. The Turks also lost 30,000 men while Christian casualties numbered between 4,000 and 5,000." At that very moment, at dawn on October 7, 1571-- as Vatican Archives later revealed--Pope Pius V, accompanied by many faithful, was praying the Rosary in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. From dawn to dusk the prayers continued in Rome as the Christians and the Muslims battled at Lepanto. When it was all over the Muslims had been defeated. Of some 270 Moslem ships, at least 200 were destroyed. The Turks also lost 30,000 men while Christian casualties numbered between 4,000 and 5,000.
******************************

"Un millón de avemarías”: El rosario en Don Quijote
As an instrument of religious devotion, the rosary acquired renewed importance through its papally decreed association with the battle of Lepanto. The victory over the Turks on that occasion was perceived by Cervantes as the most important event of all times. And yet in Don Quijote, Cervantes presents the rosary bathed in satire, which in one instance went beyond the limits of endurance of the Portuguese Inquisition.

I conclude that the treatment of the rosary in Don Quijote may offer us a clue to the conflict between the new religiosity then being imposed by post-Tridentine Catholicism, and the popular manifestations of devotion prevalent at the time." References to the Rosary in Don Quixote - the Cervantes Society of America
I find it interesting...the more I learn about Cervantes, the more complicated he is becoming. The young Cervantes of Lepanto is not the man we are reading today!

Yes, I do, Maryal...think it is a conspiracy. And I think it's working. Speaking of Aunt Phyll...where is our Phyll?

marni0308
May 30, 2006 - 08:59 pm
No, no, it's not Luscinda who lost her virginity. At the wedding she was still as pure as the snow. (Is the snow pure anymore?) It was Dorotea who was telling the story about how she lost her virginity to The Cad, Don Fernando. He's a regular Casanova, that man.

So now we have several stories going on all at the same time. I'm not sure whose caught up or exactly where we are now.

But, we have the Don and Sancho's story with the Don in the mountains and Sancho hunting down Dulcinea, Cardenio and Luscinda's story of lost love and betrayal, and now Dorotea and Fernando's story of lust and betrayal, all being told at the same time with pauses for humor here and there with the priest and the barber as added attractions.

How coincidental that so many of these players in the different stories meet up in this extremely remote part of the wild mountains. Definitely like Shakespeare. We surely suspect that all of these stories will be intertwined and will play out together somehow.

Pat H
May 30, 2006 - 09:04 pm
It's not Luscinda who loses her virginity, it's Dorotea, in the next book. We do hear more of Luscinda, though.

marni0308
May 30, 2006 - 09:19 pm
There was one other woman who lost her virginity to Fernando that we hear about, but she was a peasant girl, if I recall correctly. It happened before Fernando heard about Luscinda from Cardenio. Fernando told his friends about his sexual exploits and prowess. His story of his conquest of the peasant girl was what led Cardenio to realize what a cad Fernando was.

But, did that stop Cardenio from going on and on about what a beauty his Luscinda was and tempting his Casanova pal? Noooooooo.....

Ughhhh! Cardenio was such a jerk. I couldn't stand him. Maybe he'll shape up in the mountains.

Pat H
May 30, 2006 - 09:29 pm
In these chapters we have a fine lot of dramatic scene-cutting, shifting back and forth between first one, then two romantic stories, and some very funny slapstick. My favorite is Sancho's frantic efforts to avoid seeing the don strip, but the priest realizing it is beneath his dignity to go around in drag is a close second. I can't wait to see how this all gets resolved.

Pat H
May 30, 2006 - 09:36 pm
I think the peasant girl seduced by Fernando in chapter 24 is the same as Dorotea in chapter 28.

Pat H
May 30, 2006 - 09:38 pm
When did Sancho lose his donkey? He is riding it at the start of chapter 25, but 5 pages later, it is referred to as having been stolen, with no explanation in between.

Pat H
May 30, 2006 - 09:54 pm
Deems, in post 642 you remark that in admitting he knows that Dulcinea is Aldonza Lorenzo, who is made praiseworthy by his imagination, don Q is making a comment on the art of writing. There is another comment on writing a few pages earlier that I found striking. The don talks of Homer describing the patience and wisdom of Ulysses and Virgil the courage and wisdom of Aeneas,

"...in neither case painting and describing them as they actually were, but as they should be, so the example of their virtues may remain as a model for those who come after them."

marni0308
May 30, 2006 - 10:28 pm
Re "I think the peasant girl seduced by Fernando in chapter 24 is the same as Dorotea in chapter 28."

You're probably right! I was thinking Dorotea was from a wealthy family and the other woman was from a poorer family. I bet you're right.

Re Sancho's donkey disappearing and re-appearing - my edition has some footnotes about this. In one chapter, a prisoner whom the Don freed (the worst one who wrote about his experiences in the galleys) stole Sancho's donkey. Then later Sancho has the donkey back mysteriously. It goes back and forth a few times. Cervantes may have changed the story and then forgotten to go back and change everything - or a mistake happened in publication.

1amparo
May 30, 2006 - 10:35 pm
When reading about the battle of Lepanto, I could not help but comparing it to others, if in land, battles: that of Homer’s in the Iliad. The former fought with ships the latter with chariots: all just as blood thirsty, brutal beyond words, horrid and at the end just as futile as all wars are.

Yesterday’s Moors are today’s Arabs with some radicals now called “terrorists” … and the crusade’s still very much on: Christians and Muslins still fight. Nothing has changed in the warfare; only the weapons.

JoanP. Did you like manchego cheese?, it's not everyone 'cup of tea'

Cheers..

Amparo

Mippy
May 31, 2006 - 05:51 am
ok, I admit I'm lost... on the trail ...
The cast of characters is getting .... awaaaayyy ... from me ....
What chapter are we on? I think I have the 2 girls mixed up, too.

JoanP ~ manchego cheese! Talk about living a book! What is it like?

Joan Pearson
May 31, 2006 - 06:16 am
Good morning, dreamers! I have hectic schedule for this morning planned...do want to jump in the conversation from last night and this morning, but don't dare.

Mippy, I can see where you are confused. We haven't met the "other girl" yet...we're only up to Chapter XXVII (See schedule in heading whenever you get lost)

For those planning to make the trip to DC in the fall, you will be interested in the new discussion Marcie opened just yesterday - look who's coming! SeniorNet's 20th Anniversary Conference

Off to the mall!!! (I hate shopping!)

Deems
May 31, 2006 - 07:13 am
It's all my fault. I jumped ahead to chap 28, but we have stopped at chap 27--see heading.

However, Pat H is correct. Dorotea is the abandoned peasant girl whom the Devil Fernando first seduced. But marni, your confusion is understandable because she does have money, is quite well-to-do but still a vassal to Don Fernando's father who is a grandee (whatever the devil a grandee is). And she's the one who lost her virginity, not Luscinda. Sorry everyone for jumping ahead. I thought I was still catching up!

Pat H--Yes, that comment on art imitating reality but also setting a certain standard of the way things should be is interesting too. There are a number of places where Cervantes reflects on art, briefly.

I do think the scene with Don Quixote showing his underparts to Sancho while doing cartwheels so that Sancho can swear to having observed "mad acts" is a hoot. Sort of an ancient streaking event--remember streaking? And he bares the only part that men must keep covered when in society (and in their right minds).

I can imagine Sancho's reaction.
___________________


marnie, about that donkey, there, lost, stollen. . . good catch!

The donkey is a crux issue for critics of Cervantes. There IS an error here. In the first edition apparently Sancho did not lose the donkey, but then later he is donkeyless.

Grossman uses Martin de Riquer's edition of DQ, which is based on the first printing of the book. She has a note on p.174 about the donkey. Here it is:

"Martin de Riquer faithfully follows the first edition of DQ, published in 1605; the second edition, printed a few months later by Juan de la Cuesta, the same printer, introduces a brief passage here, indicating that Gines de Pasamonte, who is also in the mountains, steals Sancho's donkey. The thorny and ambiguous question of why Cervantes does not mention the theft of the donkey in the first edition (usually attributed to an author's oversight or a printer's error) is alluded to in the second part of DQ, published in 1615."

The second footnote about the donkey is on p. 196. It is attached to Sancho's comment "Good luck to whoever spared us the trouble of unsaddling the gray [donkey]." Second footnote:

"Over the years, the question of exactly when Sancho's donkey was stolen has been a matter of some controversy among Cervantine scholars. According to the first edition, published in 1605, this is the initial indication that a theft has taken place. In the second edition however, published a few months after the first, a passage inserted in Chapter XXIII states that Gines de Pasamonte, the galley slave, steals the donkey while Sancho is sleeping. Martin de Riquer, editor of the text on which this translation is based, adheres consistently to the first edition, citing the added passage in a footnote but not including it in the body of the text. In brief, then, through an oversight of Cervantes or the printer, Juan de la Cuesta, the first edition does not prepare the reader for the fact that the donkey has been stolen; despite subsequent correction, in the second part of DQ, published in 1615, Cervantes alludes to this omission in chapter III and apparently accepts criticism of the omission as valid."

It's pretty clear when Sancho makes all those pleas for Quixote to request that three donkeys be sent when he is to take the letter to Dulcinea that the donkey is missing. Sancho leaves on Rocinante to carry out his mission.

What on earth is Joan P shopping for? We must inquire when she returns.

~Maryal

marni0308
May 31, 2006 - 08:59 am
I bought some manchego cheese! I found it in Costco! We served it over the weekend. It was delicious! It was described on the wrapper as a semi-soft cheese. I found it quite hard - even a bit harder than a cheddar. Delicious on crackers.

Joan Pearson
May 31, 2006 - 11:54 am
Really, Maryal, Grossman has dressed the Don in UNDERPANTS? Now that IS funny! Here's Raffel on the subject
"and quickly pulling off his breeches, leaving himself in just his shirtails and his skin, without more ado he swiftly jumped as high as he could and did a pair of somersaults..."
For some reason I found the nakedness even funnier. Poor Sancho had to witness this and then report to Dulcinea what he had seen!!! She seems a healthy, earthy sort, I imagine her throwing her head back and letting out the guffaws and telling Sancho to take her to witness the somersaults, or cartwheels as Grossman translates!

I looked closely at Dore's illustration again, and see no sign of underpants. Did they wear them back in the 16th century? Boxers?

Alright, I'll tell ...I can hardly say it out loud, it is so unbelievable to me. Tomorrow and Friday my high school class celebrates our 50th reunion! At the last minute, I decided the silk suit I had planned to wear would be too hot...even in New Jersey. I think our hot days here in Washington and the broken air conditioner had something to do with it. Anyway, I'm trying to find something to wear instead. It isn't easy. And then there's the matter of shoes to go with the costume that isn't.

Back later, hopefully with parcels in hand! Manchego in Cosco???

judywolfs
May 31, 2006 - 12:14 pm
Oh, Ampero ... your post about war really caught my attention. Nothing has changed - the wars, the crusades, the terror being carried out under the guise of religion. How tragic, how true. ~JudyS

marni0308
May 31, 2006 - 12:26 pm
JoanP: I went to my 40th HS reunion last summer and pondered over what to wear. I finally decided on fairly casual and wore capris, a nice top, and high heeled sandals. Turns out nearly all of the women wore almost the exact same thing. Whew!

Pat H
May 31, 2006 - 12:34 pm
JoanP--underpaRts. not underpaNts

Hope you find something suitable--my air conditioner is broken, too, and I can't imagine wearing anything at all heavy.

Deems
May 31, 2006 - 01:57 pm
Thanks, Pat H. I checked my post just to be sure I hadn't mistyped.

under P A R T S, Joan P.

Honestly!

I guess I could have said his balls and his---stick. Heh.

Joan P--Did you graduate early?

Because my fiftieth isn't for a few years and I thought you were younger than I.

OH no, I remember the buying the dress for the wedding.

Prepare, fellow journeyers for much angst.

hats
May 31, 2006 - 03:13 pm
I like calling it "streaking." Now that was really funny. I didn't think of the word "streaking" until Deems mentioned it.

Deems
May 31, 2006 - 03:45 pm
Nothing new under the sun, Hats, nothing new!

Pat H
May 31, 2006 - 04:17 pm
The first time I read this, I mostly thought of the humor of Sancho's frantic efforts to avoid seeing it, and the amusing final scene, but the second time around, I think there is more to it than that. In spite of knowing the don is mad, Sancho idolizes him, and he doesn't want to be reminded of the ordinary aspect of the don, or to see him lose his dignity in this way.

1amparo
May 31, 2006 - 11:17 pm
You are extremely lucky. Here in Australia we cannot get manchego cheese as most foods are not allowed into the country, the most we can get, in Sydney, is an imitation of it produced here. Needless to say I make a pig of myself at times when I go ever: relations and friends keep on feeding me on manchego, chorizo, morcillas.... I better stop, my mouth's watering and I am not even hungry! Is this "Cosco" near Arlington/Washington??

Inderpants: I remember my grandfather wearing "longjons" or whatever!!!

Amparo

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 12:11 am
Amparo, Costco is a discount food (and other things) store. There are several in Northern Virginia and elsewhere near here. I have also seen Manchego cheese at Whole Foods and Balducci's; again, there are several in the area.

Judging from Dore's picture, I don't think the don bothered with long johns.

1amparo
June 1, 2006 - 01:50 am
LOL PatH. Indeed not. DQ finds himself as Rocinante did earlier on in the book: EN PELOTAS!!!

Thanks for the info on Costco.

Amparo

hats
June 1, 2006 - 01:52 am
When Don Q made the rosary, I think he was very creative. This action and some of his philosophies make me believe he isn't totally off his rocker.

"There he thought of what he could do, and he tore a long strip from his shirttails and tied eleven knots in it, one larger than the rest, and this served as his rosary during the time he was there..."

JoanP, I am glad you posted about the rosaries.

In a way doesn't Don Q make you think of Robinson Crusoe and Friday? The Don and Sancho are using whatever to survive on their trek.

"He was greatly troubled at not finding a hermit nearby who would hear his confession....so he spent his time walking through the meadow, writing and scratching on the tree trunks...."

Is Cerevantes book one about survival too? Cervantes must have needed to use all of his wits to survive? Perhaps, while in his trials Cervantes also dreamed about a real or pretend lady love.

I am not ignoring the questions. I just need to get to Chapter XXVIII which isn't difficult because the story has really caught me. It helps with the novel to think of Cervantes as I read along. Did we show a painting of him? I can't remember one. If not, is there a painting of Cervantes?

hats
June 1, 2006 - 01:59 am
I love the sketch of Cardenios in the book of Dore(I,23). He is called "the strange young man."

For the first time, I am looking closely at Sancho's behavior too. When he goes back to he and the Don's home village, he doesn't go and see his family. He thinks about what will happen if he might become a widower. Isn't that strange thinking? Now I think he really didn't care about his family when he left the village the first time with Don Q.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 03:03 am
Cardenio says about his suffering,

"for if death is sudden, the punishment is soon over, but death that is extended by torture goes on killing but does not end life."

Cardenio's wavering thoughts remind me of the same controversy today about criminals. Is it better for a hardened criminal to die by lethal injection or is it better to live forever imprisoned?

ALF
June 1, 2006 - 05:07 am
All the six horses and all the six men, couldn’t put Luscinda together again.

Do you think that her faint was intentional, Mr. Cervantes? Was she overcome by her lying, cheating heart or was it shame and fear that she felt after offering the “I DO”? This is really hysterical. Poor Lusci awaits her gallant, brave love in hopes that he will rescue her from the Don and instead he hides in the shadows, overcome with fear and cowardice. The coward hopes that she will disavow the Don’s proposal and perhaps fall on her sword to prove her love and loyalty to him. Guess what? Everybody loses. Is Cervantes saying that women are fickle hearted fools or that men are frightened little boys who go off to throw themselves on the mercy of fate, when they don’t get their own way? You have to admit, this is funny!

Yes, Hats, he's a strange young man, indeed.

ALF
June 1, 2006 - 05:08 am
Now, I'm confused, so sorry Joan. I am still one chapter behind. Damnable horse is too slow.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 05:10 am
My horse is slow too. Where did we buy these mounts?

1amparo
June 1, 2006 - 05:48 am
Cervantes never had a painting done of him in his lifetime, however in the prologue of his book “Novelas Ejemplares” he described himself very well, so well that in fact “Jauregui” (?) is attributed to have painted the picture we are more or less familiar with.

All the years Cervantes was captive in North Africa he did suffer tremendously. Tried to escape few times with some of his mates and they were recaptured time and again. Cervantes always blamed himself on each and every attempt so the punishment will be to him only. And he got away with it every time!

He is supposed to had had some amorous encounters while overseas but very few… and he wrote poems after breaking up; once in Italy and other while he was captive, if I remember correctly.

Here is a link to his photo.

Painting Amparo

hats
June 1, 2006 - 05:50 am
Amparo, thank you. I will look at the link too. I am really becoming interested in the man's life.

Joan Pearson
June 1, 2006 - 06:22 am
Good morning! Such great posts as we slide into Part IV, the last part of the first Volume. I'm supposed to be on the road to the reunion in 20 minutes, wish I could comment on what you have written. Will take laptop with me and hope to find some time to check in here once I've checked into the INN.

Hats, Cervantes' early life seems to have influenced much of what he is writing here, but the fact that his knight is approximately his own age indicates he is being somewhat autobiographical too. The Inquisition, the discovery of the New World, the Reformation and the Renaissance ideas stressing the importance of individual - all of these are on his mind as he writes of his knight.

I'm sensing that he wrote this first Volume with the intention of entertaining and supporting himself. He is developing ideas for the next Volume where he really comes into his known with character development. We'll see.

Have any of you figured out how his reasoning behind the division into the four parts? I haven't. It's almost as if he published the parts in serial form the way he provides the cliffhangers at the end of each to keep you coming back for more to see what will happen next. But I haven't found any evidence that that was the case.

Andy, I agree the whole melodrama is funny - you just can't take it seriously. Do you think Cervantes intends to make fun of these old tales of knight errantry...to make people laugh at these romances, which are the best sellers of his day?

"Is Cervantes saying that women are fickle hearted fools." I'm not sure...either that, or he's commenting on how little control over their own lives women have had in the recent past...the Renaissance ideals of individual freedom and self-expression extended to women too, didn't they?

I am particularly interested in your response to this question -
#3. What does Dorotea do when she learns that Fernando has married Luscinda and that she is legally married to Cardenio? (Was she?)"
I'm wondering at the word, "legally" in that question. When Joan K mentioned that Luscinda was not a virgin when she married Fernando, (JoanK meant to say Dorotea was not a virgin) - I stopped in my tracks. Was Luscinda in fact a virgin when she said "I do" to Fernando? What does it mean when she admits that she was married to Cardenio before that? Was she still a virgin? Can someone fill us in on what the term "to marry" meant back then?

I'm off, pray I don t' get lost, Bruce is the navigator on most of our trips while I knit or read or daydream. This time I have to pay attention to the road signs - I'm going alone, while Bruce travels south to another softball tournament in Burlington NC. I'll check in when I get to the INN. Vale!

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 06:38 am
Morning fellow riders--

Hope Joan P found an outfit for the reunion. Joan P--If you do check in, have a great time at the reunion. There's nothing quite like reunions. I only attend my high school ones (feel closer to those people in some ways).

We'll just chug along here on our footsore horses and mules. I got myself a mule because I figured they are tough animals, good for the long haul. His name is Kebo (long E). Good mount too.

OK, people, Joan P has suggested we figure out why Luscinda said that she was already married to Cardenio. That's the question Joan P wants some answers to.

Who wants to go first?

~Maryal

ALF
June 1, 2006 - 06:39 am
Have fun Joan.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 06:43 am
Not me.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 06:48 am
Hats---Not you what?

O wait, I think I understand. No answer to the Why does Luscinda consider herself married to Cardenio question?

Not to worry.

1amparo
June 1, 2006 - 06:58 am
My lips are

But I can say that I have uploaded MY photo to SeniorNet so my mates can recognise me when they see me in Arlington.

Amparo

hats
June 1, 2006 - 07:09 am
Deems,

I haven't gotten pass chapter xxvii. I am about to get on target. I am starting chapter xxviii.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 07:12 am
Amparo--What a wonderful photo! Will be sure to recognize you in the fall. Thank you for posting it.

Your lips are sealed on the marriage thing?

Me too.

We'll see what others have to say.

marni0308
June 1, 2006 - 07:32 am
I think that Luscinda's parents made a marriage contract with Cardenio to marry Luscinda. He was promised to her. They probably already would have been married had Cardenio not been called away to serve....the duke, Fernando's father? I think?

Probably such marriage contracts were legally binding. Didn't parents sometimes set up such contracts between families when the children were very young, agreeing that when the children reached a certain age they would be married?

My valiant steed is too fast for me. I have to try to reign him in. I'm too far ahead. (I couldn't help myself because I was enjoying the book so much.) Now I can't remember what I read earlier and I have to go back.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 07:37 am
Hello marni, I find myself agreeing with you. A verbal contract was legally binding. That's why (jumping ahead to chap 28) Dorotea allowed herself to sleep with Don Fernando. He vowed that he would marry her with her maid as witness. I think that's all you need. An engagement was formally binding.

Certainly in England, an engagement (betrothal) was binding. Couples who were engaged could enjoy the privileges of the marriage bed.

I made up that delicate phrase just now. Feeling creative here--and delicate. There's the earthy side (balls and stick) and the delicate side. Hard to keep up probably.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 07:45 am
Didn't Fernando marry both Luscinda and Dorothea? Isn't that bigamy? Fernando, to me, comes off as very dishonest. In our day and age I would call him a playboy.

marni0308
June 1, 2006 - 07:48 am
Hats: I would also call him a creep!

Deems: Earthy and delicate. You are a woman of many facets!

Mippy
June 1, 2006 - 09:08 am
JoanP ~ Enjoy your reunion! I've never gone to any of mine, so far.
Amparo ~ There certainly are stores to shop for fine foods, for example in Georgetown, in D.C., if you go there to sightsee. As it gets closer to October, we can email about lots of details, if you want.

Maryal ~ I'm confused about what really happened to Luscinda; I have read the chapters as listed,
but the cast of characters is getting away from me. Is my mule too slow?
Would Cervantes have condoned bigamy?

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 10:29 am
Mippy, do not despair. I think the problem is that the story of Dorotea, Cardenio, Luscinda, and That Beast, Don Fernando is ongoing.

It doesn't end in chap. 29 where we are currently resting.

If the characters are somewhat mixed up, here's a guide:

Cardenio was in love with Luscinda and she with him; he was about to propose when his father sent him to the grandee to be the companion of his son(s). The older son is a good guy, but it is the younger son, the Loathsome Lowlife, Don Fernando, who becomes close to Cardenio.

No sooner than they have become friends than Cardenio shares some letters from Luscinda, not to mention his own descriptions of her loveliness, etc. Don Fernando, the lowlife, decides to have Luscinda for his very own.

They travel to Cardenio's home where Don Fernando the loathsome convinces the lovely Luscinda's parents to give him her hand.

But, before the wedding, Cardenio and Luscinda have a brief exchange through the grate of a door. Cardenio says he will rescue her with his sword and Luscinda says she will stab herself with a dagger if she has to marry the (she still doesn't know how loathsome he is) lowlife, Don Fernando.

Next scene: the wedding. Somehow Cardenio gets into the house and witnesses the wedding. He is struck dumb to see the proceedings and especially, it seems, to see that Luscinda does not stab herself with her dagger. He does nothing. He leaves, goes mad, etc.

Oooops, left out a part. Before Don Fernando the Loathsome left with his new friend, Cardenio, to go home with him, he seduced the lovely Dorotea, who is one of his father's vassals. He soon tires of her and has this additional reason to want to get out of Dodge.

So. . . .now we are at the point where Cardenio, the barber, the priest, and Sancho (maybe not Sancho; did he go to look for Don Quixote?) come upon the lovely boy washing his feet in the river. It is not a boy but Dorotea dressed up like a shepherd boy.

Then she tells her story of the betrayal of Don Fernando.

At the end of chap. 29, our group has found Don Quixote and now Dorotea plays the part of the damsel in distress who asks the boon of Don Quixote. She argues that she is a far more believable damsel than the barber and besides she has read all those romances of chivalry so she already knows her lines.

The priest announces that he--and the barber who is wearing a fake beard--have been attacked by four highwaymen who have been set free from being galley-slaves by a man so brave that he took on their overseers and set them free (DQ, of course)

"He [DQ] released them all; there can be no doubt that he was out of his mind, or as great a villain as they, or a man without soul or conscience, for he wanted to set the wolf loose in the midst of the sheep. . . .he wanted to deprive the galleys of their oars and throw the Holy Brotherhood, which hasd been at peace for many years, into an uproar. . . ."

And at this point Chap 29 ends. Clearly there will be more to this complicated story in the next chapters.

Ok, have I confused everyone?

~Maryal

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 10:30 am
Mippy--Certainly Don Quixote (and Cervantes) wouldn't have condoned bigamy. Don Fernando's marriage to Luscinda would not be valid since he was precontracted to Dorotea.

But we don't know the end of the story yet.

judywolfs
June 1, 2006 - 11:34 am
Deems, your post 726 is great! It clears up lots of confusion. Thank you. Were you ever employed by "Reader's Digest" or "Cliff's Notes" or something?

I'm a little ahead, having finished chapters 30 & 31. Sancho has now gained a lot of my respect and has become my 2nd favorite character in the book. My first favorite is still Marcela (the woman who lives as a shephard and refuses to marry). ~JudyS

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 11:37 am
Why, thank you, Judy. Your comment made me laugh because as I was writing this, I said to myself that next on my agenda was a job at CliffNotes.

But no I've never worked for any such company. There are a bunch of them online now. I have to beat my students to keep them away from these guides!

hats
June 1, 2006 - 12:10 pm
Deems,

Great summary. Thank you.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 12:26 pm
You're welcome, Hats.

I just looked through a bunch of oncoming chapters and Cardenio and others appear for quite a while.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 12:29 pm
I can't believe it! I thought we would quickly pick up on another couple. So, I need to have a good handle on Cardenio. Are we still stuck with Fernando? Is he going to turn up with a third lady love?

I think the beard coming off the barber is just too funny. I doubt if the Don will recognize him. Cervantes describes the situation like the beard has a life of its own.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 12:49 pm
Don Q wants to learn the incantation. It's like he has seen some great medicinal cure. Now this is funny.

hats
June 1, 2006 - 01:08 pm
4. What do Sancho's comments on the Ethiopian natives he will soon rule and the galley slaves Quixote has set free, reveal about slavery during this period?

I think selling "blacks" into slavery during this period was an everyday occurrence. From what I can understand selling humans for silver and gold might have been the entrepreneur's dream. It's very sad.

Marni,

I am going to reread your thoughts and information about the galley slaves.

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 02:10 pm
Whew! What a tangled plot--it's like one of those Shakespearean plays in which everyone is pretending to be someone else, and they all keep popping out of the woodwork at just the right moment.

I'll try to tackle the question of whether Luscinda and Cardenio are actually married. I don't quite see how they can be--he had asked for her hand, but not been given it. And on page 176 of Raffel, while talking to the barber and the priest, Cardenio says:

"...before saying I do and burning all her bridges behind her, she could have said that her I do had already been spoken, and to me, a fact which I would have more than fully have attested to, had she only chosen to try such a deception."

That doesn't sound like he thinks they are married. But there is something peculiar about their last interview through the grille (p 173). I almost wondered if she had decided she would prefer don Fernando. Or maybe there is something Cardenio isn't saying, but they didn't have time or space to do anything much.

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 02:12 pm
In any case, I think Cardenio was being gutless not to have interfered with the marriage.

Mippy
June 1, 2006 - 02:21 pm
What a big help! Thanks, Maryal!
Yesterday I was looking up something else on Amazon; they tried to suggest I buy the Cliff notes to DQ.
But I didn't.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 02:44 pm
Pat H--I agree wit you on the gutlessness of Cardenio.

Mippy--Hey, why would you buy Cliff Notes when you have me here, your completely impartial free synopsisizer. Synopsicist?

marni0308
June 1, 2006 - 03:46 pm
Maryal: I am still rolling on the floor laughing from your synopsis, especially the picture of the loathsome lowlife, Don Fernando! That was GREAT!!!!

Someone mentioned again the beard (tail). The scene of the tail falling off had me in hysterics. Then later we find that the owner of the tail wants it back! That beard is just priceless.

Does anyone remember what kind of tail it was? I forget.

I like Dorotea a lot. She's pretty cool. Actually, I think a number of the ladies in the book are cool. Cervantes must have enjoyed women.

I think we must be heading towards a DUEL. What do you think? It's time for a duel. Against the loathsome villain Fernando. He deserves a huge takedown. I think there should be a number of duels, all against him. There! I tossed down my gauntlet!

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 04:22 pm
I read somewhere that there was a brisk market for Cliff Notes or their equivalent to people who were involved in book discussion groups and wanted to look good. I had this fantastic picture of an F2F book group in which they all get together and learnedly discuss the book, but none of them has actually read it, they have all just read the notes.

It's both funny and sad.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 04:25 pm
Pat H--Yes, that's the problem with students who think that they just have to know the plot. If you read the Cliff Notes to a book (or any of the many others), you never get inside the book.

So much is lost.

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 04:36 pm
Chapter XXVIII, question 4: I don't think the behavior of the peasant boy says anything about Dorotea's reputation. He has observed her chaste behavior so far. I think he is just taking advantage of her completely unprotected situation and the remoteness of the place. I doubt very much that he was killed--everyone else who gets his head split open or whatever pops up again, why not him?--but I think it's interesting that Dorotea doesn't worry about the fact that she may have killed a man.

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 05:16 pm
Chapter XXIX, question 1--how can the virtuous Dorotea even consider taking back someone of Fernando's reputation? According to the conventions of the time, she had no choice. Once he had had his way with her, the only honorable outcome for her was for him to acknowledge her as his wife. I guess the best she can hope for is that he will acknowledge her as his wife, then drop dead or be killed. It will be interesting to see if Cervantes has a different solution.

Deems
June 1, 2006 - 05:18 pm
Pat H--That's the only way out for Dorotea that I can see, unless we can get him killed off somehow. I find Dorotea an interesting character. How is your sister? Haven't seen her around for a bit. I hope she's OK.

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 06:03 pm
Cervantes wrote a short story about the question of seduction by a nobleman. I read it 15 or 20 years ago, so may have many details wrong. It's called "The Power of the Blood". In it, a callow young nobleman, with the help of his comerades, abducts a virtuous, respectable woman, and has his way with her. He then goes off, but a son is born of this union. Eight or ten years later, the woman and her son are at some public entertainment where the nobleman is also present. The son somehow hurts his arm, leading to some bleeding. The nobleman immediately responds to the blood; I forget the details, but he realizes this must be his son, tracks down the woman, and marries her.

This is presented as a much happier ending than marriage to Fernando would be. The nobleman has grown up, reformed, regrets his earlier ways, and is pleased to have a wife and heir. No mention of the horrible position of a woman of that class having an illegitamate child and living with that stigma for 10 years.

Whatever the power of the blood, the power of the story is considerable. I still remember it vividly 20 years down the road.

marni0308
June 1, 2006 - 06:10 pm
That sounds fascinating. How did he respond to the blood? Just some sense that it was related to his?

Pat H
June 1, 2006 - 06:15 pm
Marni--something like that. I forget the details. Amparo, if you know the story, please fill in the gaps.

JoanK
June 1, 2006 - 08:29 pm
DEEMS: I'm here, just behind. I've found if I read ahead, I don't remember what I've read. So I try to read just in time, and that's tricky.

We all seem to have perked up when we had a romance to work on. It seems that, in spite of C's making fun of romances of chivalry, we still like them. Perhaps C found that his readers did too.

1amparo
June 1, 2006 - 11:20 pm
“La fuerza de la sangre”, is the story you are after. One of the Novelas Ejemplares.

The plot on that one is this: Rodolfo, rich, Casanova, and swine, kidnaps Leocadia a very young, beautiful, honest and pure girl. And while she is unconscious, and in his own dark room rappes her. When she wakes up and realizes what has happened she fights him like a heroine she is but the damage has been done. She begs him to take her to the main church from where she will find her way home. She has not seen his face yet. He leaves her for few moments to get something and when she is alone she goes touching the walls etc till she comes to a window, she opens it and by the moonlight sees what is in that room: very, very luxurious and richly furnished, she takes a little silver crucifix from a desk and hides it on her sleeve. Rodolfo comes back, his face covered, and takes her to the church she requested.

Leocadia parents are so pleased to have her back. She tells them what has happened that she has not seen his face but describes what was in the room and that she never wants to know anything about him. They (her parents) support her and tell her it was not her fault she was rapped. When she is about to give birth (no one in town knows she is in that condition for she never goes out), she (and parents go) to another town, has the child. And later bring that child back home as “cousin” of Leocadia and “nephew” of her parents.

Years later the child gets run-over by a horse and he is taken to Alfredo parents home, (Alfredo is in Italy at the time) where a Dr takes care of him but of course the child cannot be moved nor leave till he is Ok.

To make the story short: the silver crucifix and Alfredo’s parents, when Leocadia tells Alfredo mother why she has that crucifix, tell Alfredo to comeback from Italy that they have a wife for him. When Alfredo sees Leocadia again, he does not recognize her but falls in love with her ipso-facto for she’s still so beautiful. And his parents tell him Leocadia IS his wife and has been since the day he gave her a child. And they make it legal. And the child has his cousin/mother and new father and two sets of grandparents. And they all lived happily ever after.

Amparo

1amparo
June 2, 2006 - 01:27 am
Trust me to get any name wrong: any "Alfredo" should read RODOLFO.

(The power of blood would be on the rich grandparents obviously.)

I have gone from "La Boheme" to "La Traviata" LOL.

Amparo

hats
June 2, 2006 - 06:18 am
I would like to become better at answering questions. I might have to reread my chapters again.

hats
June 2, 2006 - 06:25 am
I don't think of these stories as just romance stories. I think Cervantes had more to say about life through these stories. When thinking of Don Fernando and Cardenio, I think of the importance of power. As far as the women I think of the fact that marriage was important in a woman's life. In Spain, without marriage what could or did a woman do?

Some of you might have already brought these ideas up.

I think this is Dorotea speaking.

"I would spend the time reading a book of devotions or playing the harp, for experience had shown me that music soothes unsettled minds...The truth is that my life was devoted to so many occupations, and was so cloistered, that it could have been compared to that of a convent..."

Also, is it odd that a priest would choose masquerade as a way to get his parishioner back to his village? The priest did seem to feel some guilt. Finally, I think, it is the barber who disguises himself.

Mippy
June 2, 2006 - 09:29 am
Am I the only one who sees overtones of Mozart's Don Giovanni
in this romance in which DQ is involved? Quite obviously, Cervantes wrote this first.
Or are these universal stories?
Did readers in those centuries like stories of betrayed young lovers?

p.s. no, no, I never buy Cliff Notes. It was an Amazon suggestion, which made me laugh.

kidsal
June 3, 2006 - 02:17 am
I do buy Cliff Notes. Since I have recently started reading more fiction since retiring I need help in understanding the novels I haven't read over the years. I believe they do help when you are not part of a group. Asking questions about themes, characters, etc. that I wouldn't have thought of without them.

hats
June 3, 2006 - 02:32 am
I suppose it's a matter of choice. What is right for one person is wrong for another person. Each person chooses a different way to enjoy an activity.

My love of reading makes me find little joy in Cliff Notes. I have this tiger attitude. I want to find a personal understanding. If the digging becomes to rough, I quit and come back again. At times, I am way off base in my understanding. I know it and feel it. It's at these times I will reread or put the book down and come back to it months later or maybe never. It's like the toddler learning to tie his shoes. I remember my children learning to tie their shoes. Everyday it was the task of the day, the huge project. Finally, they did learn to tie their shoes. Their joy was happily spontaneous because of the feeling of independence experienced during the process. One day they would yell "mommy, I want to do it my self."

Nope, I don't want Cliff Notes. I love the joy of reading. I love a one on one experience with the author. I think the Cliff Notes, with the manufactured one style writing intrudes on my delight. Cliff Notes, the writing is so dry. The writing style can put a person off from wanting to read the book.

I want to read "Pickwick Papers" so badly. I will not use Cliff Notes. Dickens and I will work it out together. With Don Quixote, it's just you guys here, Cervantes in spirit and JoanP and Maryal. The road is rough and rugged. I am enjoying the adventure my way. "My Way" makes me think of Frank Sinatra. Pretty song.

EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT. This is just my feelings.

Mippy
June 3, 2006 - 07:07 am
oh, oh ... apologies to all ...
I certainly did not mean to step on anyone's toes or anything else ...
How did we wander off the trail or off the cliff toward Cliff Notes? Sorry!

My comment on Don Giovanni did not ring any bells, so far.
How about all the plays and books about the legendary Don Juan?
My suggestion was that Cervantes might have been one of many authors, perhaps one of the earliest, who wrote about such wicked men.
Here is a link: Don Juan
Comments?

Deems
June 3, 2006 - 07:55 am
Morning, all. I fear that I will be out of town all day, but I plan to be home tomorrow.

Mippy--the idea about Don Juan or Don Giovanni (Juan goes Italian)--and all manner of other rakes in history-- argues to me that a rake would be close to what Jung would call an archetype. They show up everywhere, in all cultures.

Welcome back, Joan K. I thought we'd lost you on the trail somewhere, but since all our characters return, I hoped you would too.

Hats--good to see you still here. Would you please send out a search donkey for ALF. She seems to be missing.

kidsal-not to worry. Cliff Notes can be very useful. Especially if you are looking for themes or character descriptions. All I meant was that in order for Cliff Notes to be useful, you need to read the book. I have known students who spent time reading notes instead of reading the book.

Pat H--I very much enjoyed your bringing up the shorter work and Amparo's additions to it. The tale of blood makes more sense now that we know that the device used to identify the child was a cross taken from his Dad's bedchamber. What most impressed me was that the girl's family accepted her, loved her and encouraged her instead of sending her out of town to a distant relative or putting her in a nunnery or something.

Anyway--later--Maryal

1amparo
June 3, 2006 - 08:19 am
It was first written by a monk; Tirso de Molina (1584-1648) and the play, for that's what it was, was called "El Burlador de Sevilla" "The rake/seducer of Seville".

Then Jose Zorrilla (1817 - 1893) wrote "Don Juan Tenorio".

Another 'Jose' Martinez Ruiz -Azorin- (1873-1967 followed with "Don Juan"

Amparo

Pat H
June 3, 2006 - 10:14 am
Mippy--Your comment rang a bell with me when you wrote it, but I was too rushed to post. I hadn't thought of it before, but of course you are right. Do you think we'll see a statue drag Fernando down to his just reward? (Note for non-opera lovers--Don Giovanni gets his comeuppance when he rashly invites the statue of the Commendatore, father of one of Don G's victims, killed by Don G in a duel,to dine with him. The statue shows up, to the accompaniment of some hair-raising music, and hurls the unrepentant rake down to the inferno.)

Maryal--I am sure you're right about the rake as archetype.

sierraroseCA
June 3, 2006 - 11:44 am
I do use them when I'm having great difficulty with a book, and the first time I read about don Quixote I had tons of difficulty with it. In fact, I thought it was so odd that it seemed a waste of time, until I read what some of the things are I should be looking for.

My hubby was one of those students who read Cliff Notes but never read the book. I'm just the opposite. I read Cliff Notes and then I can't wait to get my hand on the book to read it.

With don Quixote, though, I've read dozens of other explanations of what the book actually says and symbolizes, and all of them have their own "take" on the mad knight and his squire. All of them have given me ways of looking at them and what Cervantes was trying to say about society in his droll way.

ALF
June 3, 2006 - 11:46 am
Maryal Your post #726 cracked me up after finishing chapter 29 today. You’ve made a valiant effort in your summary. Very amusing!

I agree with PatH about Dorotea’s lack of concern for the peasant boy who accompanied her. “ I doubt very much that he was killed--everyone else who gets his head split open or whatever pops up again, why not him? --but I think it's interesting that Dorotea doesn't worry about the fact that she may have killed a man. “ She said however that she knocked him over the precipice, so we’ll have to await his return.
and--- perhaps we will see DonF. knocked off soon, the dirty dog !!

Hats, when Dorotea tells:” The truth is that my life was devoted to so many occupations, and was so cloistered, that it could have been compared to that of a convent..."
I think it is Cervantes letting us know how pure, chaste, virginous and virtuous she was before the dog “ruined” her. what a cast of "character" (no pun intended) we have assembled for the trip.

hats
June 3, 2006 - 12:28 pm
Alf,

I am glad your mule or horse found the way back. Now I am behind. I need to get back in my book again. At the same time catch up on messages. See ya later on the trail.

Alf, now I get it.

Joan Pearson
June 3, 2006 - 07:51 pm
What a great time - I'm sorry for those who skipped it saying they "don't do reunions!" The 50th is really something not to miss. A combination of incredulity and self-congratulation. It was SOOO good to see old pals and relive the memories we've been carrying around all these years. What I found most amusing was the different versions of the same memories!

One memorable moment was going to the cemetery to visit the grave site of our dear friend who passed away unexpectedly this past year. We searched for and found her grave in the poor rain, but we found her.

Maryal, how sweet that you thought I'm younger than you are! It's probably because I don't act my age...
You will be glad to know that I avoided the whole wedding dress angst by putting of thinking about what to where until the day before, when there wasn't time to do anything. Pat, my home air conditioner is shot, I hope yours is fixable. We need a whole new airconditionning and heating system!!! Haven't received the estimate yet.

Marni, I followed your advice and wore capris, a nice top and high heeled sandals...exactly as you did. There were several dressed up a bit more, suits, etc...but it was a hot hot day and those dressed like I was were much happier and more comfortable.

Fortunately, (for you) my camera died on the second day (I was saving my picture-taking for the second day when everyone would be there.) The irony - my husband gave me a new camera for my birthday a few days ago, with so many new bells and whistles I didn't have time to try it out and didn't pack it.

I've been promised a slew of emails with pictures from others' cameras. I do have one taken the night before - with a handful of us. We attended the graduation - we walked in with the graduates! That was special. I remember thinking we looked pretty good for our age - and then my second thought was that we probably looked like the graduates' grandmothers!

Oh, and several of my friends took our SeniorNet address and just may pop into La Mancha. (Look for Nancy and Janet - two bright savvy ladies who would add to our discussion.)

It's late, I've been reading through all the posts since I left on Thursday - cannot wait to really dig into them - but better wait until morning. It was a long drive back home in the rain! It's good to be back!

This picture was taken the first day...graduation day. We dressed up a bit for this one...I wore an old dress that was quite comfortable...but did buy new high-heeled sandals as Marni advised.

Pat H
June 3, 2006 - 08:17 pm
Portrait of Cervantes

In post 711, Amparo gave us a link to a portrait of Cervantes. The Spanish text includes Cervantes' own description of himself. I read it, and was going to try to put it into decent English, but fortunately, I thought of looking in the back of Raffel, where he translates it thus:

"This man you see here, with aquiline face, chestnut hair, smooth unwrinkled brow, joyful eyes and curved though well proportioned nose; silvery beard which not twenty years ago was golden,large moustache, small mouth, teeth neither small nor large, since he has only six,and those are in poor condition and worse alignment; of middling height, neither tall nor short, fresh-faced, rather fair than dark; somewhat stooping and none too light on his feet...."

I think the portrait smoothes things out a bit; I would like to see him more aquiline, as he described.

The description goes on to say: "He was many years a soldier, five and a half a prisoner, when he learned patience in adversity. He lost his left hand in the naval battle of Lepanto, which, although it looks ugly, he considers beautiful, since he collected it in the greatest and most memorable event that past centuries have ever seen or those to come may hope to see,..."

Pat H
June 3, 2006 - 08:23 pm
Nancy and Janet, welcome.

I hope you show up here; all are welcome, the more the merrtier, and don't feel you have to read everything that has gone before before jumping in.

marni0308
June 3, 2006 - 08:53 pm
JoanP: That's wonderful that you had such a good time at the reunion! I'm glad you were comfortable. I know you were gorgeous. Your wedding picture and the new picture of the reunion shows us you must inevitably be the belle of the ball. I bet the men were all drooling!

PatH: Thank you so much for Cervantes' description of himself. I just love it. It sounds like someone being very honest and comfortable with himself. He doesn't leave out the flaws, but puts in special warm touches like the "joyful eyes." Doesn't that sound wonderful - "joyful eyes." How wonderful to be able to say that about one's self.

1amparo
June 3, 2006 - 10:11 pm
Glad to hear you all had smashing times at the reunion. Reunions are wonderful ways to bring us back to lovely times we once had, at least that is my belief.

RE: photo. Alas, I am none the wiser, (for I do not recognize any of the charming ladies mates) Would it be possible to have "L to R, F & B" names??? PLEASE???

It seems that since I know I am coming to meet with some of you time goes as slow as when I was teenager... I wonder why.

Cheers

Amparo

hats
June 4, 2006 - 01:40 am
<JoanP, I am very happy you enjoyed your class reunion. You look very lovely in the photo.

Amparo and PatH, thank you for sharing more about Cervantes.

kidsal
June 4, 2006 - 02:41 am
Please -- will you list who's who on the reunion picture!

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 05:05 am
Good morning! Thank you! Yes, the reunion was quite an experience - you can tell from the big smiles, can't you? Kidsal, this was my high school reunion - Amparo, I'm in the first row, center - the gal to my right is Nancy, who would like to join our adventure here. I hope her plans allow. Nancy is the retiring chair of the English department in a Mid western college...I'm sure she'd bring much to the table. (She was our class valedictorian.)

Marni, I'm smiling at your "belle of the ball" comment - for two reasons. We were an all girls' high school - so most at the "ball" were women. But there were a number of husbands in attendance. I'm smiling at Marni's remark, remembering that one of our "motherly" classmates (Helen, top left) kept telling me that I was showing too much cleavage. Me??? I'll have to check the photos when I get them - if I get them - to see for myself. If they are x-rated, I won't post them because of SeniorNet policy. Hahahaha, I'm blaming you, Marni - you said to wear a "cute" top!!!

OK, now to your posts of the last few days. I just love the translation of Cervantes' self-description, Pat! It says so much more to me than does the formal portrait. I noted his description of his teeth - and consider them in the light of his comments on DQ's teeth.

I was particularly interested in his comment on the battle of Lepanto - characterized as "the greatest and most memorable event that past centuries have ever seen or those to come may hope to see,..." That sort of dashes my growing perception that he was regretting the battle in his old age. Au contraire!

Will go back over your comments now, but first want to say this to you, Hats - Don't ever worry about "becoming better" at answering the questions. They are there to be considered or ignored and hopefully to get you thinking about the episodes. I might add that you pose some of the best questions here to keep us thinking. Can't ask more than that!

hats
June 4, 2006 - 05:12 am
JoanP,

Welcome back!

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 06:13 am
Good morning, Hats!

Today is catch-up day for me...since tomorrow we will be moving on to Chapters 29 and 30. Forgive me, but I'm going to use the questions as an outline as I try to comment on the posts from the past few days...
"1. Dorotea's parents were simple "old Christians - so old they had rust on them." What is your understanding of this oft-repeated term? What does it explain about her parents' reaction to Fernando's attention to their daughter?"
I've been noting "old Christian" a number of times in previous chapters - and am fairly certain we'll see it again. Cervantes seems to be making a point each time he uses it. What is an "Old Christian" to Cervantes? Sometimes he seems to use it to describe those who were born Catholic, not the many who recently converted for political reasons. Other times he seems to be using it to describe those who are "Christian" in the true, old sense of the term...not simply those who follow the current proclamations of the Church Fathers.

It seems to bme that Cervantes is using this term as a compliment when describing Dorotea's parents, doesn't it? They were not about to marry off their daughter to the wealthy suitor, but rather gave her the choice of any young man in the town, rather than to accept Fernando's courtship. Dorotea's parents seem more virtuous than Luscinda's then?

Luscinda's parents will only give their consent for their daughter to marry Cardenio IF they first receive approval from his parents. Why? To assure Luscinda and Cardenio will receive his parents' blessings - and wealth! As Maryal points out, we haven't heard the whole story of what happened there. I'm fairly certain that Cervantes will clear this up. Maybe Cardenio's parents DID consent to the marriage. The last we heard, Cardenio's father was holding back while waiting to see what the Duke, Fernando's father would do for Cardenio. I don't see his consent forthcoming at this time, but we'll see.

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 06:44 am
Marni wrote: "Probably such marriage contracts were legally binding. Didn't parents sometimes set up such contracts between families when the children were very young, agreeing that when the children reached a certain age they would be married?"

I've been reading several sources since you posted, Marni, and yes, such betrothals were considered as good as the actual marriage contract. I've also read that the Church had a different attitude towards marriage and also towards sex during the betrothal period in medieval times - in the 12th century
"... actually, marriage did not take place in the church until the Council of Trent "finally put an end to the chaos generated since the twelfth century by the insistence that only the mutual consent of the couple was necessary to create a binding marriage. The Tametsi decree, issued in 1563, stated that for a marriage to be recognized by the Church: a) the partners must give their consent, and b) the priest must say a formula (such as "I join you together in matrimony") ratifying the marriage." Medieval and Renaissance Marriage Customs
This seems to indicate that before the Council of Trent in 1563, the twelfth century insisted that "only the mutual consent of the couple was necessary to create a binding marriage." It is in this sense, maybe Luscinda considers Cardenio to be her husband? But she needs this consent "ratified" by the Church, doesn't she? Why on earth then, did she go through with the "ceremony" with Fernando? We're told she did it to please her parents? Huh?

It seems to me that Dorothea was the more virtuous - with her family's support, she was able to speak up to Fernando and turn him down. I'm not clear why she finally gave in to him when he bribed his way into her bedchamber. Was it because she knew that if she refused, he'd take her by force and then she'd no longer be a virgin? If she first accepted his proposal of marriage, then she would be "betrothed to him" - married to him(?) and then such relations would be acceptable?

Andy, she wouldn't have been "ruined" if the cad had formally "ratified" the "marriage" at the Church door. They ARE married...as long as there is mutual consent. I too sense a duel - Fernando must be forced to "mutual consent" ...and to ratification at the church door!

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 06:51 am
What do you think of Sancho's state of mind? He knows that the "princess" is Dorotea, posing as the damsel in distress. He knows this is all a plot to bring Don Quixote home to "cure" his madness, doesn't he? Or does he really believe that Dorotea is the princess who will marry Don Q and make Sancho a prince? Is he in on the plot or not? I'm confused? Maryal, you omitted Sancho's role in your summary! Is he in on the plat? Or does he believe that Princess Micomicon is who she claims she is?

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 06:57 am
I was somewhat surprised at the comments about the black slaves as "black gold" in this section. Cervante himself was a slave for a five year period - did he come into contact with the black slave trade then? We have also met the chain gang...they were condemned to slavery. Marni noted the Pope himself had galley slaves at the time. Were all those who worked the galley ships slaves? It seems that all those who were unable to defend themselves against the more powerful no matter the color of their skin, were vulnerable to captivity and slavery.

I agree, Hats, it's very sad. So did Don Quixote. No wonder our Knight considered it his duty to free all slaves, whether they were guilty of any wrong-doing as the chain gang, or not. If they had lost their freedom, our Don would set them free! To be enslaved is the greatest evil. Others will not agree with him.

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 07:26 am
Loved your comments on that peasant boy! She threw him over the precipice because he dared think that she was "easy"...hahahaha, you really believe that he'll crawl up from the depths, dehydrated, bleeding and fall at her feet and admit he was wrong about her? HAHAHA, of dear, aren't we having fun with this?

About the Cliff notes, I'm certain that none of us here is discussing the book after just reading the notes. As long as they are helping you understand what's going on, go for it. I'm with you, Hat's...I find that I enjoy forming my own conclusions, after our conversations here - rather than read someone else's interpretation of the episodes. They are just one person's perception, after all. BUT, if you find something of historical importance, or a factual explanation or definition that might be of help here...please do bring this information to our table! I feel with our interested readers...and with Amparo on the spot, we have a rich rich experience without the experts at Clff notes. And oh, I don't want to forget GOOGLE at our fingertips.

I've said enough.(More than enough!) After I unpack and look over my momentos from the reunion, I'm going to read on into the next chapters for tomorrow. I think we're ready to learn more. Where is Luscinda? Is she too hiding out in these here hills?

ALF
June 4, 2006 - 12:34 pm
Welcome home Joan. I'm so pleased that you all enjoyed yourselves. I will be attending Bill's 50th next month, oops, no, this month! Well, too late now to worry about dropping the 20 #s. What the hey, I'll eat another bon-bon.

Mippy
June 4, 2006 - 02:30 pm
Where is Luscinda? I hope we find out? Will she be somewhere on the trail?
I've started to read a little ahead, but will wait for the signal to ask questions on the next chapter.
JoanP ~ Welcome back, and thanks for all the summaries. Nice photo, too!

Deems
June 4, 2006 - 02:40 pm
First and most importantly:

Welcome back, Joan P!

Deems
June 4, 2006 - 02:41 pm
Cleavage????

Joan Pearson
June 4, 2006 - 03:10 pm
Thanks for the welcome mat, Mippy, Maryal, Andy, Hats. It's good to be back.
I'm really deeply involved in this novel. Must confess that I wasn't when we first started.What did you think of the idea that all it took back in medieval times was mutual consent between the two parties, NOT necessarily their parents, that constituted a betrothal - which was considered the same as marriage? The church door blessing simply a ratification of the agreement...I guess the parents got involved in the church door part, because that's when the money matters were decided.

I can't get over the fact that Doro actually wants this cad back after he has "married" Luscinda! JoanK says we all perked up when the romance was introduced. It's true, isn't it? Cervantes knew his readership!

Am busy reading tomorrow's pages...no sign of Luscinda yet...

ps. It was the "cutest top, I own. Blame Marni, she said to wear it!

Deems
June 4, 2006 - 03:27 pm
This goes way back to Joan P's comments on the rosary in # 680. I'll quote Joan here so everyone doesn't get lost trying to find the original:

Joan wrote: "I was interested in the references to the rosary...the sly little remark that Maritornes promised to pray the rosary for the enormous Christian undertaking was one. And who was it who fashioned a rosary out of his shirt? At any rate I was quite curious so I looked up "rosary"...curious as to why Cervantes is mentioning it more than once. I found two interesting sources -

The Rosary defeated the Muslims at the Battle of Lepanto. "At that very moment, at dawn on October 7, 1571-- as Vatican Archives later revealed--Pope Pius V, accompanied by many faithful, was praying the Rosary in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. From dawn to dusk the prayers continued in Rome as the Christians and the Muslims battled at Lepanto. When it was all over the Muslims had been defeated. Of some 270 Moslem ships, at least 200 were destroyed. The Turks also lost 30,000 men while Christian casualties numbered between 4,000 and 5,000."

I wanted to comment on this at the time but forgot. I am so easily distracted.

The reference is to the section in chap XXVI where Don Quixote is trying to decide whether he should imitate Amadis of Gaul or Roland in his penance in the mountains:

"Then he thought of what he could do, and he tore a long strip from his shirttails and tied eleven knots in it, one larger than the rest, and this served as his rosary during the time he was there, when he said a million Ave Marias." (Grossman)

Grossman has a footnote here which might be appropos : "This phrase was considered irreverent, and in the second edition it was replaced by 'And for a rosary he took some large galls from a cork tree, which he strung together and used as prayer beads'."

I love Grossman's footnotes and always read them. Then Joan P tells us that while the Battle of Lepanto was being fought, Pope Pius V was saying the rosary.

Lots seems to be going on here given that Cervantes had to change the rosary made of shirttails to a rosary made in a more conventional way. But apparently Cervantes was too clever for his censors since they saw no exaggeration in the million times he said the prayer.

Several points are being made here, I think.

First, Don Quixote is a very religious knight, faithfully saying many Ave Marias. (That won't bother the censors.)

Second, Cervantes might be poking a little fun at the Pope who was praying for victory while Cervantes himself was in the thick of the action.

The time when the Spanish Inquisition was in full force doesn't seem to be a safe one for any writer, but Cervantes cleverly makes many points under the cover of comedy (and madness).

Maryal

marni0308
June 4, 2006 - 09:27 pm
I have a footnote of explanation on this. "Old Christians" were those who had been Christians for generations - born Christian. "New Christians" were those such as Jews and Moors who had converted to Christianity.

marni0308
June 4, 2006 - 09:37 pm
JoanP has commented on legality of marriage - when is it legally binding? This has been an important question for centuries (probably much longer!) It seems to depend on the culture - parent-approved - church service - civil ceremony - marriage simply between the marriage partners???.....

I've been reading the book Mayflower by Philbrick. It seems that one of the differences between the Pilgrims and other Christians, and even other Puritans, was that they believed a couple was legally married by civil service alone. They did not believe a church ceremony was required to make it legal. Apparently, they picked up this custom from the Dutch when they spent years in Holland before emigrating to the New World. Civil marriage ceremonies without the church component were legally binding in New Netherlands in the 17th century. The Pilgrims carried this custom over to America.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 01:16 am
now I understand the reference to "Old Christians" vs. "New Christians" were newly converted Jews and Moors. I think this subject is in another post too.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 02:18 am
Help first, ask questions later. This is the Don's way of looking at life. When he sees the Ethiopians and the galley slaves, he sees their suffering and immediately puts his ideals in action.

"It is not the responsiblity or concern of a knight errant to determine if the afflicted, the unfettered, and the oppressed whom he meets along the road are in that conditon and suffering that anguish because of misdeeds or kind acts. His only obligation is to help them because they are in need...."

In our society, all these years later, the Don serves as a good example. Not knowing it, when we give to charities, we are putting the Don's ideals in action. Unfortunately, due to many questions asked our good deeds get lost in bunches of red tapes.

JoanP and Maryal, I am so glad you included your thoughts about the rosary. I find the rosary so interesting. I see Cervantes through his character, Don Q, likening the Ethiopians and the galley slaves as beads on a rosary. He sees the suffering people and the string of rosary as one and the same. That just got me excited.

"And I encountered a rosary, a string of disheartened, unfortunate people, and I did for them what my religion asks of me."

Anyway, the footnote names the Order of Chivalry as a religion. Was the Order of Chivalry thought of as a religion, like an organized religion with meetings between congregants or parishioners?

I am reading chapter xxx. Is it too early?

1amparo
June 5, 2006 - 03:08 am
THANKS!! Joan. Now I shall be able to recognize you when I see you next October… ‘cos you’ll be there, will you not?

Cervantes: I am glad he had a very clear, flourish, easy to read, handwriting that even today, four hundred years later, one can still read his documents and manuscripts.

Not so Christopher Columbus (VI hundred anniversary of his death two weeks ago), his writing is so small, I am having trouble reading it.

Cheers all.

Amparo

Joan Pearson
June 5, 2006 - 03:37 am
Good morning! Only one eye opened, no coffee yet. I can understand Amparo being up, but Hats- You are up with the red breasts! Sure, XXX is fine - I will be back to chat after coffee and my Sudoku. Are any of you hooked on these puzzles? They are my morning wake-up.

Mippy
June 5, 2006 - 03:47 am
JoanP ~ Good Morning.
No, I decided not to get started on those Sodoku things, as they would clearly become addictive.
After you have your coffee, let us know whether we are moving down the dusty trail today? I might need some help with the upcoming adventures of our befuddled DQ. (perhaps-befuddled-Mippy)

ALF
June 5, 2006 - 03:56 am
I love the names Cervantes chooses for the characters. Dorothea’s (invented) father was dubbed King Tanacrio the Sapient (ever wise-one) and the giant that was to overturn her make believe kingdom was called Pandafilando of the Scowl. The king has foretold of Dorothea meeting up with our knight and saving her from “the scowl”. That is a riot! How threatening does he sound, scowling? Thank the lord that we have DonQ to face that usurper.

I like this sentence: “With friends we must not look too closely into trifles.” (Nor do we dare.) Does anyone believe that familiarity breeds contempt? I don’t get this? ”I say no more- it is impossible for me for a moment to contemplate marriage, even with a Phoenix." Is he likening Dorothea to the phoenix that rose from the ashes, to live anew? I don’t know who is more grandiose, the author of the character.

Poor Sancho- he took a beating for commenting on the lovely Dulcinea. I’m like that so I understand this dude. He even admits that his first impulse is to speak what is on the tip of his tongue. Oy vey! Been there, done that, most of my life Sancho, so move over. Don’s reply is "For all that, Sancho," said Don Quixote, "take heed of what thou sayest, for the pitcher goes so often to the well- I need say no more to thee." what does he mean?

1amparo
June 5, 2006 - 03:59 am
8.30 pm, Monday 5th

Amparo

hats
June 5, 2006 - 04:50 am
I love the giant's description and long name. I don't think the Don should even try to take that guy on. I also like the mistakes Doro makes while telling her story. Then, the others chime in to make the story clue together. Usually, when people are stringing a story along on a whim, the guy out of the loop would catch on. I don't think the Don is aware of the made up fairy tale.

Mippy, I will need help too on the road especially if my mount uses a shoe, horseshoe or is it a muleshoe???

hats
June 5, 2006 - 04:53 am
I have read lots of stories which include giants. Now my mind can't think of one title. Coffee should help me too. I am back without coffee, didn't move from my seat. What about "Gulliver's Travel?" There is another story came on tv about a year ago. All of you would know it. I think a giant, an ugly giant, appeared in that story.

I believe it was The Oydessy. It appeared on tv as a series a few years ago. I didn't see the whole series. I just wanted to see the one eyed giant. I think there is a giant in "Jack and the Beanstalk" too.

I read an adult book a few years ago titled "The Giant's House. I can't remember the author. I will look her name up.

The Giant's House

Deems
June 5, 2006 - 06:41 am
Whoa--I too have to wake up though never with Sodoku.

I've tried that "game" twice and have no talent with it at all. And, like Mippy, I'm afraid to give it a real go because I have a highly addictive personality. Shall we talk about how long it took me to give up smoking?

Anyway, there's something about putting numbers in rows on a grid that just doesn't "speak" to me. (I will admit my addiction to a Gameboy game called "Zelda" that I'm not very good at.)

And I am definitely not awake yet.

Back later.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 06:43 am
What is "Sodoku?" I have never heard of it. Maybe I shouldn't admit my lack of knowledge, especially about a game.

Deems
June 5, 2006 - 06:49 am
Hats--If you get a daily paper, check the comics section. If you have a crossword puzzle there, I think you will also find a sodoku grid. It will have a few number (from 1-9) scattered around and you have to fill in all the other numbers (between 1-9) so that no row, including the diagonal ones (not sure about them) has more than one of the same number.

I think the Washington Post online has one.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 06:51 am
Oh, I get the Saturday and Sunday paper. I will look for it. Probably, I have seen it. For some reason, didn't notice the name. That's my excuse.

Deems
June 5, 2006 - 06:57 am
Hats--See if this link works. If it does you will see Sodoku from the Wash. Post.

Sodoku

JoanK
June 5, 2006 - 07:56 am
I've tried to avoid sodoku and stick to my crossword puzzles. Soon, I will be the only one in my family doing them. My daughter and sister have already become addicted to sodoku! I'm afraid to start.

I thought I had a pretty good vocabulary from reading and crossword puzzles. But I watched the Scripps National Spelling Bee the other day (did any of you see it?), and of the dozens of words, there were only four that I had ever heard before (never mind spelling them -- I can't even spell my own name). Who knew English had those words!

I like the play on words in Cervantes, too. I'm still having trouble getting into the book, though. But I keep on keeping on.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 08:08 am
Great! Deems, thanks. Boy oh boy, all those numbers make me nervous. Like JoanK, I love crossword puzzles. I love cryptograms too. Word Search is a bit boring. This Soduku looks really tough! I am going to peek at it again later on.

JoanK
June 5, 2006 - 08:20 am
Hey, SPANISH SPEAKERS, in poetry, we are reading the poetry of Pablo Neruda. One of his books of poetry has the Spanish and English side-by-side, so some are reading both. The link below gives you a sample in English and the citation to the Spanish/English edition.

POETRY OF PABLO NERUDA

Joan Pearson
June 5, 2006 - 08:24 am
Oh Hats! don't click that link! Mippy's right, it's an addiction, concocted by the devil himself to usurp all of your free time which you could put to better purposes. I was an innocent, and resisted SUDOKU for quite a while. I thought of myself as a "verbal" person - love the New York Times crossword, love those Quote Acrostic puzzles! What satisfaction can be found in fitting numbers 1-9 across and down (also within each of the nine grids)? Here's how the devil tempted me. The sudokus are described as Japanese games that test your...not your facility with numbers...but your logic. Now how can you walk away from that? Don't we all want to think that we have a logical mind? To this day I can't tell you how I got hooked - to the point I can't start the day without my daily logic workout.

Maryal, like you, I wasn't successful at first. That saddened me. I had to either face the fact that I am NOT a logical person, or I'd be able to complete the silly grid - OR I had to conquer it!

The best time to start is the beginning of the week. The newspapers publish three levels of difficulty. Easy, Medium, or Difficult. Mondays and Tuesday's are easy, Wednesday and Thursday are Medium, Friday and Saturday are Difficult and let's not even talk about Sunday, the Samurai - these are four regular sudoku grids with another superimposed in the center. You learn on the "easy" ones. Some papers, like USA TODAY designate them with stars - you want to start with the one star puzzle. Gosh, I sound like the devil himself! Hats - don't listen to me!!!

I feel better having confessed my addiction. Isn't that the first step on the road to recovery? Will be back in a few minutes...am so enjoying your posts this morning! Sorry for the distraction!

sierraroseCA
June 5, 2006 - 08:45 am
And I just wanted to add an aside. There is a lovely little Italian film out there called "Il Postino" which is about the relationship of Pablo Neruda with an Italian postman while Neruda and his wife rent a house on the Isle of Capri. It gives some insight into Neruda's lifestyle, his relationship with his wife, and how kind he was to this plain little postman. It has subtitles, but is a charming little film.

Joan Pearson
June 5, 2006 - 08:59 am
Thank you for that, Sierra. Funny that Pablo Neruda's name came up here. I'll have to pass along all this information on the poet to a friend of mine whose 40 year old son and his wife just had their first child. They named the child Parrish Neruda, which was quite " different" for my friend's family. Craig explained that Neruda was his favorite poet, and now my friend Dorcas is looking for more information on the poet whose name her grandson bears! JoanK, I plan to compare the Spanish English vocabulary you found in the poetry discussion to the one we have here in the heading...as soon as I get to this morning's posts- is it still morning?

JoanK
June 5, 2006 - 09:18 am
Sierra: that film sounds really interesting. Can I post it in the Poetry discussion?

JoanK
June 5, 2006 - 09:23 am
JoanP: for someone who's not awake you're sure on the ball!

hats
June 5, 2006 - 09:51 am
Sierrarose,

That film does sound very interesting. Thank you for writing about it. Pablo Neruda really wrote beautiful poetry. AnnaFair, chose a Chilean poet for this month. Pablo Neruda is proving to be a wonderful choice.

ALF
June 5, 2006 - 10:09 am
Which one of you here turned me on to the AARP daily jigsaw puzzle? I am addicted to it! With coffee in tow, each AM, before the paper even I must do the jigsaw puzzle using the most cut pieces allowed. They also time you so I look at the preview of the puzzle and decide just how LONG it would take me to assemble roughly 178 pieces together.

Logical? Me? nope, just addicted.

JoanK
June 5, 2006 - 10:11 am
ALF: do you have that link? (although I don't need another addiction!)

Joan Pearson
June 5, 2006 - 10:19 am
On the ball? Gee, Joan, do you think? I'll take that as a compliment, though I don't feel I've accomplished much since 6 this morning when I first came in! I was so excited to read Hat's post, tying in the devotion to the Church and the rosary with the knight's freeing of the chain gang slaves...and haven't even posted on that!

Maryal, thanks for the Grossman footnote regarding Cervantes' jabs at the Pope for attributing the victory at Lepanto to the praying of the rosary. I've been wondering what Cervantes' attitude was towards that war against the Muslims and his part in it as he grows older. Now I'm thinking that he thought it was a glorious war thanks to the warriors, not because of divine intervention through the praying of the rosary. Not sure yet. He does seem to be saying that he fought the war because his Church, his religion precribed it.

Hats! That was brilliant - tying in the knight's reason for freeing the enslaved chain gang (his religion (chivalry) ordered him to do it,) just as the Church ordered Cervantes to fight the holy war, whether or not it was a "just" war. Hats, will you tell again which translation you are reading that provided the line:
"And I encountered a rosary, a string of disheartened, unfortunate people, and I did for them what my religion asks of me."
I've gone back over the Raffel to see how I missed that - here's what I see:
"I came upon a long line of miserable unfortunates and did for them what my vows require of me."
I can see why I didn't connect "a long line" with the rosary. Is Amparo still awake? I'm curious to know how she will translate that line at the start of Chapter XXX. Hats, despite the footnote, I think of the Order of Chivalry as something LIKE a religion, but I think many of the old knights might quibble about that. But yes, there were clear cut rules a knight was to follow, and that is what our Don Q is doing.

Marni, would you call Cervantes an "old Christian"? Dorotea comes from a long line of Old Christians, she tells us...which perhaps is why her parents are free to disregard any "new proclamations" from the Church and revert back in time to the way things used to be - regarding marriage law specifically in this case. (I've got Mayflower here on deck...excellent reviews, can't wait to start it.)

The priest observes that Don Q. is perfectly sane except where he is living the whole knighthood/chivalry thing. I'm trying to think of what else we know about him. Where does the priest find him sane?

Was planning to talk about the giants in the stories of old, but will leave that to you all. Gulliver's Travels...yes! I want to "do" that here with you one of these days! I'm going to go nominate that right now! As with Don Quixote, I'm familiar with some of the episodes, but have never read the whole thing.
I love to hear your examples of giants in the old tales of chivalry. The one that comes to my mind is "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" - oh and nothing beats the Beowulf giants! I'll bet Cervantes was familiar with these!

Later! Now I really must get on the ball, I've used my byte quota for the day!

hats
June 5, 2006 - 10:42 am
JoanP, It's the Grossman translation. The footnote is on page 250. I like the Grossman translation better, don't you?

Pat H
June 5, 2006 - 12:05 pm
"And I encountered a rosary, a string of disheartened, unfortunate people, and I did for them what my religion asks of me."

Grossman's translation of the Spanish is pretty literal:

"Yo tope un rosario y sarta de gente mohina y desdichada, y hice con ellos lo que me religion me pide...."

There are so many cognates you can sort of see it's the same. Tope is encountered, sarta is a string of beads, mohina is sad, desdichada is wretched.

It's interesting that Raffel completely omits the religious reference. I wonder why.

Pat H
June 5, 2006 - 12:09 pm
I would advise anyone who hasn't gotten addicted to Sudoku not to start. I would have thought that by now I would be tired of it, since the logic is always similar, but I haven't yet. Deems, the diagonals don't have to be all different, just columns, rows, and boxes.

If you do start, you can figure out the reasoning on the easy ones, and gradually get more ingenious with experience.

marni0308
June 5, 2006 - 12:47 pm
I'm popping in for a minute to catch up. I'm in the middle of printing out my Treasurer's report for our Fire District annual meeting tonight. (I'm Clerk/Treasurer, pay the bills, keep the books, etc.; so this is my big night.)

JoanP: I wouldn't know whether to call Cervantes an Old Christian or not. I don't know enough about him. I would have thought that he was an Old Christian, but then didn't someone in our group suggest that Cervantes was a Jew?

There must have been plenty of New Christians around in his time because the Church (government?) was insisting that non-Christians such as the Jews and Muslims convert to Christianity or be imprisoned or killed, as I recall reading somewhere. This was not the age of tolerance. Many must have converted to Christianity for public appearance and practiced their own religion in private.

marni0308
June 5, 2006 - 12:48 pm
I was interested in the sudokus for awhile and then realized they were similar and I had worked out a system. Then I found out that some play them in teams. Now that would be hard! The teams take turns and you wouldn't have the control over the puzzle that you have doing them by yourself.

sierraroseCA
June 5, 2006 - 12:54 pm
is free for anyone's use. I found a URL which gives a run-down of the film, for those interested. It was also beautifully filmed with gorgeous cinematorgraphy of the island. I've never read Neruda's poetry and I don't care for the fact that he was a communist and led Mario astray, but it was a gorgeous little film: http://www.lone-star.net/literature/postino/

I don't recall the ending as it was described here, but then, it's been many years since I've seen the film. I do remember the way Neruda's relationship with his wife was depicted, as something playful, romantic, very special and their enjoyment of just being together. The scene of the two dancing to an old phonograph record on their patio which overlooked the sea was one of the most romantic scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 01:06 pm
JoanP, I should have written the footnote and the paragraph about the rosary are on the same page, 250.

Sierrarose, thanks for the link.

hats
June 5, 2006 - 01:31 pm
Sancho does believe in the offer made by Princess Doro. He begins to act like Doro is his queen. He kneels before her giving her total respect and honor. He becomes angry because the Don remains loyal to Dulcinea. The strife between the Don and Sancho almost leads to murder.

"Don Quixote could not endure hearing such blasphemies said against his lady Dulcinea; he raised his lance, and without saying a word to Sancho, in absolute silence, he struck him twice with blows so hard he knocked him to the ground, and if Dorotea had not called to him and told him to stop, he no doubt would have killed him then and there."

Sancho's greed, I think, has driven him totally mad.

Deems
June 5, 2006 - 05:13 pm
Andy--What translation do you have?

I ask because the phoenix reference in Grossman is clear, whereas that sentence you quoted is confusing. Grossman has ". . .for it is not possible for me to consider or even think about marrying although it were with one as unique as the phoenix."

Since there was only one phoenix living at a time (they lived for 300 or 500 years or some other number depending on what version of the myth you read), Dorotea--pardon me Princess Micomicona--is unique indeed, one of a kind. Or rather Quixote says that no matter how rare the beauty, he could not marry her because he is pledged to you know who.

I think Sancho's response to Quixote's refusal makes perfect sense since he knows that there is NO Dulcinea, that she is modeled on the peasant girl, Aldonza Lorenzo. He also knows that Quixote is not married. To turn down such an offer is crazy indeed! I don't think he's greedy so much as he can't believe how far Don Quixote is taking his made-up game.

Re: Sudoku. I tried it only once and discovered that I had no ability to get all the numbers in the right place. I think the one I tried my nonability out on was three stars. That's about in the middle, isn't it?

If you do the puzzle online, and you get a small square or a line of the big square, it flashes or turns color or something; prizes fall from the air and you think, "Hey, this is easy." And then you get to doing the last row and there's no combination of the digits that doesn't violate one of the lines you already have. I must have tried it for about an hour before I decided that I didn't want to play.

No math ability is required, Hats. Interested that logic IS involved Joan P--I never got that far. I'm all trial and error here.

I also apologize for misspelling Sudoku. But, hey, the link works!

~Maryal

1amparo
June 5, 2006 - 05:50 pm
Chapter XXX:

"Yo topé un rosario y sarta de gente mohina y desdichada, y hice con ellos lo que me religión me pide" =

“I encountered a rosary, a string of disheartened, unfortunate people, and I did for them what my religion asks of me."

Then “and” at the beginning of the English translation is the only word not in the original.

So far no documents have been found to say Cervantes ancestors were once Jews, however, because they had been Drs. and tailors etc, and they seemed to had been well read, (even some females could read and write [not Cervantes mother]), it is said that they had been, once upon a time, Jews. But Cervantes got his “certificate” to say he was “old Christian”. In those times if one could pay to the right person the right amount… just like today’s . Cervantes seems to have really felt the Christian religion, sincerely. It was the hypocrisy of some of its principals, in the church, that he kept on fighting.

I also saw “Il postino” many years ago, in Spain.

I once did a sodoku, beginners luck! But yes, it could get addictive that game; hence I have not tried it again!

Amparo

Deems
June 5, 2006 - 05:55 pm
Amparo--Congratulations! I didn't even have beginner's luck. Thank you for letting us know that Grossman's translation was so accurate. I think she's doing the best possible job of being light as well as faithful to the original.

I read just a little of the biography I have and the author indicated that nothing had been proved either way about whether or not some of Cervantes' ancestors might have been Jews.

Still, as Pat H pointed out, at this point in Spanish history, you either had to be a Christian or leave the country.

Cervantes gets a lot of mileage out of the Old Christian/ New Christian division though.

Sort of like people in the USA claiming to have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower--or very early in the history of this country, it seems that in Cervantes' day it was the thing to boast of being an Old Christian (in other words, always a Christian before being forced to convert, or having one's parents forced).

hats
June 6, 2006 - 02:06 am
Maybe greed isn't the right word. I do think Sancho is ambitious. He says "I'll never get the rank I'm hoping for if your grace goes around asking for the moon." Sancho also hopes to be made a marquis or a governor. Too much ambition can lead to madness.

No, Sancho's reponse makes no sense at all. Don Q floats around naked, can't tell the truth from a lie, thinks windmills are giants, to believe one word Don Q says must mean you are a little off the beaten path too.

Mippy
June 6, 2006 - 07:14 am
One question above is: does he know Dorotea is not a royal princess?
Sancho does think Dorotea is a princess, and he does not analyze the consequences of what would happen if DQ married her, and abandoned his "true" love. Sancho just wants booty and slaves and so forth, and he doesn't think of the importance of DQ's honor, vows, or other knightly aspirations.
I don't think Sancho is especially greedy, as all along, DQ has been promising
him all sorts of rewards. I think Sancho is naive and too credulous.
What do you think?

Yes, I did notice that Don Q. is sleeping again while the discussion of book burning is going on. A repeating event like this must mean Cervantes had some devise, some ploy, up his sleeve. But I cannot figure out the significance. It's a pretty modern devise for a novel written that early; is it like a dream sequence? a flash back? I can't spot what it means, can you?

Joan Pearson
June 6, 2006 - 09:23 am
Another time Cervantes made sure the knight was sleeping was the night Maritornes came creeping into the attic to keep her date with the muledriver. Mippy, maybe when it's important to Cervantes to keep his Knight in the dark when he would be too shocked by reality, he simply takes him out of the picture. The innkeeper and the guests are now free to talk about the books, as fiction while the Don sleeps.

Were you surprised to hear just how popular the romances were among the "lowborn" at the inn? First I wondered how Dorotea became so "knowing" as she spun the story of Pandafilando. She'd led such a cloistered life. But she DID learn to read and she must have been reading the old tales of chivalry to be so familiar with them. The knight would have been familiar with the giant of old, so he had no trouble accepting Dorotea's story.

A funny thing about this giant's name - Raffel calls him "Crosseyed Pandafilando" - Andy your translation refers to him as "Pandafilando of the Scowl."I'm quite interested in the differences in translation!
Amparo thank you for the Spanish - even I can see that Cervantes intended "un rosario" - why on earth would Raffel choose to change this?

So. Our knight was not alone in reading these old tales. Everybody was reading them! How crazy did they think Don Q. was? Didn't they sort of admire his adherence to knightly chivalry? How much did he differ from those who merely daydreamed?

Thanks, Amparo - "Cervantes got his “certificate” to say he was “old Christian”. Cervantes seems to have really felt the Christian religion, sincerely. It was the hypocrisy of some of its principals, in the church, that he kept on fighting. Let's keep alert for further reference to those who are called "Old Christian" to see what Cervantes thinks about this. Is Don Quixote "Old Christian?

I don't understand why Don puts Dorotea's needs over Dulcinea's orders to come to her at once? He needs to go 1000 miles to slay that giant - Dulcinea is only 100 miles away? Isn't his whole reason for the daring feats to impress his lady? How can he ignore her? Or are there other reasons?

Joan Pearson
June 6, 2006 - 09:30 am
Sancho's madness is another story. He's never read these books, yet he is ready to accept Don Q"s word because he knows he is educated - he can read. Hats finds him ambitious, he really wants to believe the promises, though his common sense frequently tells him that things cannot be as the Don says. But then, there's always some sort of explanation, magic spells, etc, that convince him that sometimes what can be seen is not so. Like the beautiful Dorotea - a real princess in Sancho's eyes!

I went back over the part where he first meets her. He is introduced to her as the Princess. I had thought he was in on the plot to bring Don Q. home for the "cure" and knew Dorotea was part of the plot, not really a princess. - But that was previous to this meeting - remember when the priest, and then the barber plotted to dress as a damsel in distress. I agree, Hats, to Sancho, Dorotea is the real thing and he no longer doubts his master.

Mippy sees him as "naive and credulous" - I see him almost childlike - How old do you think he is? Don certainly talks down to him..."miserable peasant", "fool", "idiot." And there are even times he refers to him as "young Sancho" - "my boy" - "Sancho my boy, help me take off this shirt."

I'm going to be indelicate here by quoting Raffel - this sentence made me pause. First, I am dying to know how Grossman translated it. Says the Don to Sancho: "Do you think you can always stick your hand into my crotch and I'll just correct you and forget about it?" Now what on earth is he saying here?

On that note, I'll leave the floor to you! Have a great day!

Deems
June 6, 2006 - 10:08 am
Mippy writes, "I think Sancho is naive and too credulous."

And isn't that useful in a squire for a "knight errant" in a time when there haven't been any knights errant for three hundred years. Sancho certainly believes that Dorotea is a princess or he wouldn't argue so strenuously for Quixote to marry her. I think it's his very ability to get caught up in Don Quixote's imaginings, in addition to his continuing to see a barber's basin and not a helmet, that makes him such a wonderful sidekick.

And it seems to me that if Sancho believes in the princess then he also believes in the Giant who is threatening her kingdom, Pandafilando of the Gloomy Glance.

Way back in Chap 21, Don Quixote explains to Sancho that he cannot just present himself to the King right away. First he has to build a reputation so that the King will know who he is.

Then he tells Sancho what it will be like when he has achieved enough victories as a knight errant (wandering knight). Of Quixote's story, Grossman tells us in a footnote on page 160, "It should be noted that Don Quixote's tale is a perfect plot summary of a novel of chivalry." The tale may be found on pp 158-161.

~Maryal

Deems
June 6, 2006 - 10:19 am
Joan P, you and I were typing at the same time.

Raffel has "Says the Don to Sancho: "Do you think you can always stick your hand into my crotch and I'll just correct you and forget about it?"

Grossman has "Do you think," he said after a while, "base wretch, that you will always be able to treat me with disrespect, that it will always be a matter of your erring and my forgiving you?"

Grossman also has a footnote after "think" --"As indicated earlier, when he is extremely angry Don Quixote changes the way he addresses Sancho, moving from the second person singular to the more distant second person plural. this is the second time he has done so, and he maintains his irate distance until the end of the paragraph."

In this paragraph (Grossman, 255), Quixote also calls Sancho depraved villain, contemptible ruffian, insidious viper's tongue, whoreson and ingrate.

My favorite is "insidious viper's tongue."

Maybe we have some other translations too?

Maybe Amparo can help out. The paragraph in question is toward the end of chap XXX.

~maryal

hats
June 6, 2006 - 10:22 am
JoanP,

In the Grossman translation the giant is called "Pandafilando of the Gloomy Glance." There is a little difference.

When Don Q becomes so angry with Sancho, he says,

"Tell me, insidious viper's tongue, who do you think has won this kingdom and cut off the head of this giant and made you a marquis, all of which I consider already accomplished, concluded, and finished....Oh, foul whoreson!"

I don't see the statement about the "crotch" or anything like it. Maybe I am not able to pick out the right sentences. What struck me is the fact that the Don sees himself as already the conqueror of the giant. The Don thinks he has already given Sancho a higher rank too. Isn't that strange? The Don sees the future as the present. Sometimes it is all bewildering to me.

About the "crotch," I am thinking the Don is saying to Sancho "do you think you can always try to embarrass me or make me look stupid?"

hats
June 6, 2006 - 10:24 am
Maryal,

I think we were writing at the same time too.

Deems
June 6, 2006 - 10:25 am
Hats, we were indeed. And there's no crotch in Grossman, you're right. I think she sums up the gesture in Raffel with "disrespect."

Sort of like the kids say today, "I don't want to be dissed" or "Don't you be dissing me!"

hats
June 6, 2006 - 11:29 am
This is the quote I tried to paraphrase in my post. I should have quoted it.

"Tell me, insidious viper's tongue, who do you think has won this kingdom and cut off the head of this giant and made you a marquis, all of which I consider already accomplished, concluded, and finished..."

Isn't that a funny way of looking at things? The Don sees himself as already the conqueror.

Maybe I did quote it. Sorry if this is a repeat.

hats
June 6, 2006 - 12:03 pm
We also know that the Don was unable to care for his property. He had fallen from his noble status. There are other issues involved.

Joan Pearson
June 6, 2006 - 01:38 pm
To treat with disrespect is one thing. If that is what Cervantes wrote, why didn't Raffel simply translate that? Hats, the translation occurs in Chapter XXX - a page or two from the end when Sancho becomes angry and tells Don Q. that Dorotea is more beautiful than Dulcinea...that Dulcinea doesn't measure up to the likes of Dorotea. Don is so angry he nearly kills Sancho with his lance had Dorotea not screamed for him to stop. So he makes this remark in the ladies' presence too!!! How chivalrous is that? Can't wait for Amporo or PatH to get here with the Spanish version. If Raffel has created these words, I think I'm going to change translations.

The priest says that Don Q. is mad only when it comes to knighthood and chivalry. Hats, didn't he lose his property because of his addiction to the books on this subject? If not mad, this shows at least poor judgment. Sometimes he seems to enjoy Sancho and they seem to have a friendship - but when Sancho contradicts him on his fantasies, he goes off and nearly kills him. I want to see more character development. I want to see the Don change. Do you think we'll see this in Volume II?

marni0308
June 6, 2006 - 03:48 pm
I'm reading the Smollett translation. The giant is called "Pandafilando of the Gloomy Aspect." Don Quixote is called "the Knight of the Rueful Countenance."

I thought it was amusing (and sort of gross) when Dorotea was relating her father's story about who the knight-errant would be who would save her kingdom from the giant. The knight would "be a tall man, with a long lean visage, and have on his right side, below his left shoulder, or thereabouts, a grey mole garnished with hairs, which bear some resemblance to a hog's bristles."

Don Quixote can't wait to tear off his clothes in front of everyone to find out if he has such a mole.

After Sancho says to the Don that Dulcinea is "not worthy to tie her majesty's shoe-strings," and the Don flips out, he calls Sancho a "plebeian scoundrel," "an excommunicated rascal," a "grovelling beggarly villain," "a viperish scoffer," "thou whoreson, ungrateful ruffian," and later a "blasphemous traitor."

My translation doesn't say anything about a crotch. If I'm looking at the right section, the Don says to Sancho: "So you think...that I will always stand with my hands in my pockets; and that there is nothing to be done, but for you to misbehave, and for me to forgive you?"

I think that mainly the scenes where the Don gets really furiously mad at Sancho, at anyone, is when anyone touches on what the Don perceives as disrespect for Dulcinea.

Deems
June 6, 2006 - 04:48 pm
marni--I was interested in Smollett's translation of the mole.

Here's what Grossman has on the appearance of the mole:

"He also said that his body would be tall, his face dry, and that on the right beneath his left shoulder, or somewhere near there, he would have a dark mole with certain hairs growing out of it like bristles."

That's pretty close to what you have.

1amparo
June 6, 2006 - 08:05 pm
Raffel has "Says the Don to Sancho: "Do you think you can always stick your hand into my crotch and I'll just correct you and forget about it?"

Grossman has "Do you think," he said after a while, "base wretch, that you will always be able to treat me with disrespect, that it will always be a matter of your erring and my forgiving you?"

Don Quijote says: "¿Pensáis –le dijo a cabo de rato-, villano ruin, que ha de haber lugar siempre para ponerme “la mano en la horcajadura” y que todo ha de ser errar vos y perdonaros yo?"

Now, “ ponerme la mano en la horcajadura”, literaly means “stick your hand into my crotch”. However, it is an expression one uses when one has lost patience with a very irksome, insidious person. Now adays I think younger generation says: “stop fu---g me off/up!” (????)

So Grossman has put it very polite but it is the closes to its intention.

Notice also how DQ uses, again, the “vos” instead of “tu”, so he is mad at Sancho… and oh, so loyal to Dulcinea! Yes, he tells Sancho: "plebeian scoundrel, excommunicated rascal," a "grovelling beggarly villain," "a viperish scoffer," "thou whoreson, ungrateful ruffian," and later a "blasphemous traitor."

Amparo

hats
June 7, 2006 - 02:15 am
It is really interesting to read the words from different translations. I like to hear how the translators put the words. Are we reading from about three different translations?

JoanP, I would really like to see the Don change and grow in maturity before the end of the book too. At times, I find him over the top especially when he almost murdered Sancho. His emotions aren't under control. I think that is one aspect of madness. A person is unable to control their emotions and behavior. When the Don becomes angry, he almost becomes beserk. Maybe Cervantes witnessed lots of strange emotional problems while being imprisoned.

hats
June 7, 2006 - 02:38 am
I don't think the Don is unhappy about the news Sancho brings back from Dulcinea. The Don seems able to come up with tons of excuses for Dulcinea's behavior. Dulcinea tears up the letter because she can't "read or write." She also says the Don should hurry to Toboso. After everything Sancho says, the Don responds,

"Everything is fine to this point."

That seems like an odd answer. Dulcinea laughs at the fact that the Don is called "Knight of the Sorrowful Face." I would expect her to cry and become sad over the Don's misfortunes. Of course, no word Dulcinea gives is taken in a negative way by the Don. In all ways she is "a wise woman." He is satisfied with Sancho's whole report.

Sancho isn't hearing what he wants to hear. He wants the Don to forget about Dulcinea, the peasant girl, and set his sights on Dorotea. Sancho says,

"...a bird in the hand is better than a vulture in the air,..."

By the way, I think Sancho isn't that young. I can't guess his age. He tells the Don "I'm old enough to give advice."

Amparo, In Spain how old does a young man or older man need to be in order to give advice to a fifty year old man? Are there certain courtesies involved?

hats
June 7, 2006 - 02:50 am

1amparo
June 7, 2006 - 04:27 am
“In Spain how old does a young man or older man need to be in order to give advice to a fifty year old man? Are there certain courtesies involved?”

Oh boy! That’s the million dollars question, mate! On Quixote times, an elder I don’t think would ever take advise from a younger one… perhaps the older would listen to the younger one and admire the wisdom of his thinking/reasoning and maybe act accordingly to what it has been said, if the case so required.

In present times… well, I remember my grandfather, a “Cervantes” sort of person and Latin teacher, complaining of the disrespect of the younger generation. I don’t think there are any protocols in such matters nowadays.

In Spain it is just like it would happen in USA, or anywhere else for that matter. Do young people have or show any courtesies or respect for their elders today? In very rare occasions perhaps.

Amparo

hats
June 7, 2006 - 04:39 am
Amparo,

Thank you for your answer about Quixote in centuries past. Then, answering about our society today. When I was growing up, my parents taught me always to respect the elderly. They taught me never to use the first name of an elder person. I must always say mr. or mrs. It still amazes me to see a teen calling an older man or woman by their first name only. And a younger person giving advice to an older person without being asked was definitely a no no.

Joan Pearson
June 7, 2006 - 07:47 am
Thanks for the translation, Amparo! It helps to know that Raffel did translate Cervantes' words, literally, Grossman in the spirit of what Cervantes intended. I've been watching and taking notes on comments such as this between Sancho and the Knight, but not ready to remark yet on some views expressed elsewhere regarding the relationship between the two. To tell the truth, I'm skeptical about what I've read, but am watching very closely for comments such as this.

Hats, I see Sancho as an older man too - close in age to his Master. Yet, I do note that Don Q. refers to him as "young man", "boy".

What do you think of this possibility? - Don Q. sees himself as a knight, a knight courting a lady - not as an old man past his prime. but a virile young knight, despite his silver beard. Such a young knight would have a squire - the squire would be a young man too. Not an older married man with a wife and family, but someone free to roam about with the knight errant who promised him a well-born wife as a reward. If DonQ sees himself as a young man, might not he see Sancho as a "young man", a "boy"? Two young men gallivanting around the countryside together might forget the differences in their rank...and the squire might forget himself and offer advice to his "friend", no?

************************************


I thought the hairy mole was quite funny - no matter how it is described in the different translations. Don Q. wants to take off his shirt - (is he wearing pants at this point?) to see if he is the one Dorotea's father has foreseen as her savior...but Sancho jumps in to say that it is unnecessary for him to take off his shirt, because he himself has seen that mole. Maybe it's not under the shoulder, but Don Q DOES have the mole, so why quibble with where it is - it's on his body. You'd think that Sancho would have wanted this proof, believing Dorotea's story as he does. But maybe he doesn't want to risk having the whole mission aborted on account of a detail?

While we're talking of translations, would those reading other than Raffel check and see how the title of the upcoming story in Chapter XXXIII is translated? Raffel calls it "The Story of the Man Who Couldn't Keep from Prying."

Before the priest begins to read this story, there are some interesting exchanges between the priest (who represents the Church?) and the folks at the inn, regarding fiction. I'd be interested to hear your reaction to the argument. I have a number of friends who don't like fiction for some of the same reasons the priest has mentioned - (though they don't burn their books). Funny thing, the priest likes the upcoming story of the Man Who Couldn't Keep from Prying" for some reason - but I'm getting ahead on the trail.

hats
June 7, 2006 - 07:54 am
JoanP,

Your thought made me excited. The Don, your saying, probably sees himself as a young man. That never entered my mind. It sure makes sense. Thanks!

Deems
June 7, 2006 - 08:19 am
Thanks, Amparo, for the Spanish itself. I find these differences in translation fascinating. A translator always has choices to make; probably the deeper into the work the translator gets, the more the sense of how to translate a phrase becomes clearer? We are lucky to have you with us and fortunate that you can so quickly find a passage we cite.

Joan P--I like your thinking about Don Quixote imagining himself as a young knight very much. Of course, Sancho would be a boy, since squires were really not just servants and helpers with such things as putting on armor, but essentially knights in training. Some went on to be knights, I think, sort of an apprentice situation. If Don Quixote sees himself as a young man, then Sancho must also be young.

I also thought of the derogatory social use of the word "boy," a way of diminishing a grown man. It was the custom a long time after the end of slavery (U.S.A.) to keep African Americans "in their place" by calling a man "boy" though the man in question might be in his seventies. It was a way of emasculating them.

Grossman's title for XXXVIII--"Which recounts the novel of The Man Who Was Recklessly Curious"

~Maryal

hats
June 7, 2006 - 08:47 am
Maryal,

That's true about African American men being called "boys." Women were called "Aunt so and so, whatever her name might have been. This was very disrespectful.

Deems
June 7, 2006 - 08:53 am
Hats--Yes, I remember the "Aunt" or "Auntie" too. Amazing how language can be used as a power tool. So unfair.

hats
June 7, 2006 - 08:56 am
And degrading.

JoanK
June 7, 2006 - 11:49 am
In talking about the respect given to elders, we forget about the difference in social class between the Don and Sancho. Mad or not, the Don is a gentleman and Sancho is a peasant, who would normally be expected to be a servant of the Don. Social class would have been much more important then, in the feudal system, even than today. This overrides the respect due to an elder. In fact, I'm thinking that this may be the reason in a number of cultures (not just in America), members of the class kept in a subservient position are thought of and referred to as children. This makes it comfortable to avoid giving them the respect due to elders.

I take the Don's remarks referring to Sancho as a child in that sense, rather than literally.

Pat H
June 7, 2006 - 01:45 pm
I had a similar thought about Sancho being referred to as a boy. I think it was a common literary convention to depict servants as childlike.

Pat H
June 7, 2006 - 02:03 pm
The mention of disrespectful forms of address reminded me of the Delaney sisters; did anyone read "Having Our Say"? They were remarkable pair, 100 years old when they wrote their story. Imagine the persistance it must have taken for an African American woman to become a dentist back then.

Anyway, their parents solved the problem of the habit of the time of being disrespectful to African Americans by addressing them by their first names, no matter what their age or position. No one in the family ever used anyone's first name in public. No one could call them by their first names because they didn't know them.

Mippy
June 7, 2006 - 02:34 pm
Our dear DLs ask: why are they all so eager to hear "The Story ...?

I think Cervantes is just setting up his next chapter.
We don't have to take each and every action by the characters as a living-breathing event. We can see our novelist peeking through the screen in some of this, and I applaud Cervantes. Even much later, Dickens and other writers of his time used quite similar literary liberties, didn't they?

Pat H ~ I was interested in your posts, regarding forms of speaking to Sancho.
I don't think DQ was disrespecting Sancho, but treating him as a younger man, and as an
aide-de-camp, as you implied.
Perhaps in that time, as you said, treating a servant as a man of lesser importance was entirely normal.
It seems that DQ often forgot that. In his enthusiasm to hasten toward new adventures, DQ spoke to
Sancho as almost an equal.
Could this writing be a gentle "dig" at the formality or absurdity of class structure by Cervantes?

hats
June 7, 2006 - 02:34 pm
I have read "Having Our Say." I loved the sisters. They were very close to one another, as different as chalk and cheese, if I remember correctly.

1amparo
June 7, 2006 - 05:41 pm
Sancho is very close to DQ’s age. (Remember they are neighbours back home?) You will all find out a bit more about him on the 2nd part of “El Quixote”, when Sancho receives letters from his wife. And no, neither of them can read or write.

marni0308
June 7, 2006 - 10:10 pm
Hi, Hats!

In the Smollett translation, chapter XXXIII is entitled "In Which is Narrated 'The Story of an Impertinent Curiosity.'"

I'm getting such a chuckle out of Dulcinea. The more I hear about the real woman, the funnier it is. She sounds big, loud, and illiterate, and she works in the fields. Her voice carries a long distance. To hear the Don talk about her as the delicate beauty he loves just cracks me up.

Wasn't she the only unmarried woman he could think of when he was trying to come up with a maiden for whom he could perform acts of a knight-errant?

I wonder if we'll meet her eventually?

From the Dore pictures of Sancho, he does not look like a spring chicken. I think he's been around for awhile - long enough to be tired of marriage and his wife and family and to long to leave them behind for adventures and new roles such as being the ruler of an island. Maybe he seems young because he's naive and gullible.

1amparo
June 7, 2006 - 11:41 pm
Capitulo XXXIII Donde se cuenta la novela del curioso impertinente = Where it tells the story of the NOSEY impertinent.

"Curioso" comes from "Curiosidad" which it could mean clean, cleanliness... but not in this instance. Here it means: "Deseo de saber y averiguar algo que no le incumbe." = To put one's nose in something one should not: = nosy parker!

Amparo

hats
June 8, 2006 - 02:10 am
Amparo, I don't know Spanish. I just love your translations. I like to see the written Spanish words too.

There is a paragraph in chapter xxxi that made me really laugh. I hope everybody else laughed too. Here is the paragraph. It is at the end of chapter xxxi. Andres is the speaker.

"For the love of God, Senor Knight Errant, if you ever run into me again, even if you see them chopping me to pieces, don't help me and don't come to my aid, but leave me alone with my misfortune; no matter how bad it is, it won't be worse than what will happen to me when I'm helped by your grace,...."

After we left Andres I did think a lot about him. Andres suffered more pain from his employer or master later. Don Q rode off into the sunset without seeing to the end of the matter. That's when I began to wonder whether the Don had a problem with finishing what he started. Poor Andres discovered the Don's shortcoming the hard way. The Don made that man more upset than ever with Andres. That's why Andres begs the Don to just stay out of his affairs.

hats
June 8, 2006 - 02:20 am
Sancho doesn't know Doro isn't a royal princess. This is why Sancho is begging the Don to help Doro by killing the giant, Pandafilando of the the Gloomy Glance.

Amparo, what does Pandafilando mean in Spanish? I just love the spelling of Spanish words. I bet really hearing the words pronounced in Spanish is a better experience.

I am behind again. Have we answered all of the above questions? I have been trying to answer the questions. I am too slow. I would love to see all the questions answered. There is help needed.

hats
June 8, 2006 - 02:40 am
I wish all of the people who mounted their horses in the beginning would turn around and come back. I liked their company and their interesting answers to the questions. I think Don Quixote is a fun book for the summer.

1amparo
June 8, 2006 - 03:34 am
" What does Pandafilando mean in Spanish?"

It is just the name of the giant, nothing else.

hats
June 8, 2006 - 04:25 am
Thanks, Amparo. I have just seen your photo. What a beautiful photo. Quite lovely. I never thought to click on your name.

Joan Pearson
June 8, 2006 - 07:49 am
Good morning, Persistent Questers!
Amparo, that is a lovely picture, but I still want to see your eyes. I think of them as dark and mysterious. The sunglasses hide these "windows to the soul."

Hats, I believe that many of those who started with us are either ahead on the trail, keeping lips sealed about what they have read - or bringing up the rear. Whenever we get involved in a long-running adventure like this one, it is expected that there will be interruptions in participation from time to time. Like you, I look forward to campfire gatherings with our full compliment...

Oh, Mippy, I see "our novelist peeking through the screen" too! I am awed at the very idea of spending time each morning listening to this man who lived more than 400 years ago! As we know, he is writing under impossibly restrictive conditions, and yet he manages to let us know what is going on during his time - and how he feels about it. And with such good humor!!!
"Could this writing be a gentle "dig" at the formality or absurdity of class structure by Cervantes?" I hadn't thought of that, but yes, I see that now. The whole book is a compilation of "digs" at the absurdity of the existing class structure when you think about it.

JoanK reminds of the difference in social class between the Don and his squire, pointing out that "this difference overrides the respect due to an elder." Even if they are the same age, Don is the aristocratic gentleman, and as Pat points out, the Don speaks down to the peasant as if he were a child-like servant.

In general, I don't see Don Q. pulling rank too often. It is only when Sancho refers to his lady with disrespect, that he loses it. Marni - can you imagine the meeting between Don Q. and Dulcinea? His imagination will have to be really powerful to overcome the image, the sound...the smells of the peasant girl to reconcile her with the fragile lady of his dreams! You know, thinking about it, I don't think such a meeting is possible. I don't think the Don could handle it...such a meeting would really drive him mad!

Like the meeting between Andreas and Don Q. that Hats describes. Didn't you cringe for the Don...this took place in front of the entire company. This farmer's boy is lecturing the famous knight! There's not much the knight can say when confronted with the reality of the situation.
"His story left Don Quixote deeply embarrassed so the others had to be extremely careful not to laugh, because that might have pushed the crestfallen knight over the edge."

Joan Pearson
June 8, 2006 - 08:09 am
Amparo, as you can tell, we really do appreciate your taking the time with the translation. I like your "Story of the Nosey Impertinent" - better than Smottett's (thanks, Marni!), Grossman's, or Raffel's and will adopt that for this discussion!

Hats, we're scheduled to begin discussion of this "nosey-parker" story today, but I think Cervantes is sharing some important views on the fiction of his time in Chapter XXXII which we haven't yet addresssed. Since he is the "father of the modern novel" I think we ought to spend some time considering what he is saying here.

Let's go ahead and read "The Story of the Nosey Impertinent" now, (all three chapters), but NOT begin the discussion until you all feel we have addressed Chapter XXXII. How's that? You're not behind, Hats...right on schedule.

ps. I have soooo many questions about "The Nosey Impertinent" - mainly why did Cervantes choose to insert it into the action of the the Quixote story now. Maybe as you read, you will understand something I don't see! Am looking forward to hearing from you!

hats
June 8, 2006 - 09:24 am
The innkeeper enjoys the books of chivalry. The innkeeper tells his feelings immediately and without embarrassment.

"...There's no better reading in the world; I have two or three of them, along with other papers, and they really have put life into me, and not only me but other people, too."

The innkeeper and other people like him, the workers or harvesters, aren't thought of as mad. Maybe they aren't thought of as mad for a good reason. The innkeeper and other people haven't took to the road to live out a fantasy like Don Q.

Deems
June 8, 2006 - 09:58 am
Good afternoon fellow mounted wayfarers~

I have been briefly interrupted in my reading of Don Quixote because of an interloper in the house. Bought daughter a new Apple Macbook and since I haven't played with Apple for a while have been getting to know it. All these years on a microsoft computer with certain ways of doing things, and now this new item with its small--really small--size. It is white, like the terriers. But it doesn't walk around and beg to go in the car.

But I digress.

Joan P--I have, you guessed it, a footnote for the first chapter of "The Man Who Was Recklessly Curious."

Here it is: "This is the first of what are called the interpolated novels (in contemporary terms, they are novellas) in the first part of Don Quixote; the story is derived from an episode in Canto 43 of Ariosto's Orlando furiouso. There are indications in the second part of Don Quixote that Cervantes was criticized for these "interruptions" of the action."


. . . . . . . . . .


Orlando furioso (1516) is generally regarded as the finest expression of the literary tendencies and spiritual attitudes of the Italian Renaissance.

From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Despite complete disregard of unity of action (which was to become compulsory in the second half of the century), it is possible to identify three principal nuclei around which the various stories are grouped: Orlando's unrequited love for Angelica, which makes him go mad (furioso); the war between Christians (led by Charlemagne) and Saracens (led by Agramante) near Paris; and the secondary love story of Ruggiero and Bradamante. The first is the most important, particularly in the first part of the poem; the second represents the epic background to the whole narrative; and the third is merely introduced as a literary courtesy, since the Este family was supposed to owe its origin to the union of the two lovers. The main unifying element, however, is the personality of Ariosto himself, who confers his own refined spirituality on all his characters. Sensual love is the prevailing sentiment, but it is tempered by the author's ironical attitude and artistic detachment. Upon its publication in 1516, Orlando furioso enjoyed immediate popularity throughout Europe, and it was to influence greatly the literature of the Renaissance.

I'm not jumping ahead here, just providing a little background for the interpolated novel which follows.

Maryal

hats
June 8, 2006 - 11:37 am
Maryal,

Is it possible to put your explanation in layman's terms?

marni0308
June 8, 2006 - 12:41 pm
I think it's interesting that Cervantes places stories within stories within stories and jumps back and forth between each. They all seem to have themes in common, such as love, jealousy, betrayal, revenge, chivalry - of course - tests of love, pining death and suicide. Generally in the stories there are multiple couples whose stories are intertwined.

Don Quixote wants to live the stories. He meets a number of people who are living examples of the tales he spent so much of his life reading about. He hunts for the love and excitement they and the fictional characters live. Sometimes, he lives the stories by becoming part of their stories, such as when he becomes Dorotea's knight hero and slays the giant (the large wineskin) while sleepwalking.

marni0308
June 8, 2006 - 12:47 pm
In the tale we are about to discuss, one character is named Lotario. This name sounds like a version of the name Lothario to me. Today, a "Lothario" is someone who is a rake or a seducer or lecher. Online, I found a number of sources that say the word Lothario is derived from a character in Nicholas Rowe's 1703 play The Fair Penitent, who seduces and betrays the female lead. I'm wondering if Rowe got the idea for his character from Cervantes.

marni0308
June 8, 2006 - 12:52 pm
It seems that anyone who can read in Don Quixote knows the chivalric tales. Just like Dorotea and Cardenio, like the barber and the priest, they can all just jump right in and act the part of someone in a tale of chivalry and knights-errant. Usually, they act the part on behalf of Don Quixote to stop him from hurting himself or someone else, or in attempts to stop his mayhem, or in attempts to get him to go home.

Deems
June 8, 2006 - 01:43 pm
Hats--That wasn't me. That was the Encyclopedia Britannica's summary of Orlando furioso, a long epic poem by Ludovico Ariosto. It was published first in 1516. Ariosto continued working on it for many years.

One part of it--my guess is the story of the rejected lover--was what Cervantes used as the basis of the story in Chaps 33-35.

The Renaissance began in Italy and spread from there throughout Europe, not arriving in England for several hundred years.

Is that better?

I apologize for being confusing. It's Joan P's fault since it was marni's fault that Joan P went to her reunion and showed cleavage of all things.

Maryal

hats
June 8, 2006 - 01:51 pm
Maryal,

I figured that out later. Finally, I did read the words Encyclopedia Britannica. Yes, it' better.

marni0308
June 8, 2006 - 02:18 pm
Here it's all my fault and I don't even have much cleavage to show! Not fair!

Deems
June 8, 2006 - 02:35 pm
marni----love it!

You can have some of my cleavage. Free.

marni0308
June 8, 2006 - 02:38 pm
I want some.

Jan
June 8, 2006 - 06:41 pm
I just got back and blanched(a word I never thought I'd get to use) at the number of Posts here. I'm afraid I never even got to open the Book. Looking after Mum was like looking after a three year old, except that three year olds play with toys, and I was Mum's toy. Plus getting her up to the Hospital and back every day, used up most of the daytime. It was lovely to have the time with her though, I wouldn't swap it for the world.

I'll try some reading on the weekend, and see how it goes.

Pat H
June 8, 2006 - 06:52 pm
The priest has his own notions of fiction, and I don't much care for them. First he wants to burn the two fiction books, because they are "full of idiocy and madness", but he wants to keep the one he says is a true account. Then he quotes incidents in the "true " book that are almost as unlikely as the fiction.

Then he says that the purpose of fiction is to keep idle minds busy, and that just as "well-framed governments ALLOW people to play chess, and ball games, and billiards...so too they LET such books be printed...." It's like the Roman emperors keeping the populace happy with bread and circuses.

Finally, he says "I could tell you what these tales of chivalry would have to be, to become good books, and even useful, and to certain people's taste, but I hope the time will come when I can communicate such things to someone who can do something about it...."

It sounds like he wants government censorship, with only officially approved propaganda allowed.

Joan Pearson
June 8, 2006 - 06:55 pm
PatH, we're posting together - on exactly the same issue, but with a different spin. You see the priest's comments as prescribing what books should include and smell censorship. That probably makes more sense than my wishful thinking, hearing Cervantes planning better, truer stories in the future!

Hats...quoting the innkeeper..."no better reading in the whole world...they really have put life into me, and not only me but other people, too." What do you think he meant by that? The stories have enriched his life? They lifted him up from his ordinary life and gave him something to daydream about? Later in this same paragraph he continues
"...harvest time...there's always some who can read...we all gather round, listening with such pleasure that it really takes a load off our minds, and I can tell you that when I hear those wild stories and about those smashing blows the knights hand out, I feel like doing the same thing myself, and I know I could listen to them night and day."
Escapism. Later Dorotea whispers to Cardenio: "It wouldn't take much for our innkeeper to play second lead to Don Quixote." The innkeeper says there are many who feel this same way. While they smile at the knight, don't you thnk they are a bit envious that he finds such delight in a world they can only dream about. Look at the company he keeps! The beautiful ladies!

It's a bit like someone who up and quits his job to sail around the world after reading so many travel books. Others shake their heads, but secretly wish they had the nerve - and wherewithal to just do it!

Now the priest is of a different view, saying the purpose of such books is to amuse lazy minds. He's ready to burn more fiction, but wants to preserve one of the books, which chronicles the the deeds of the Great Commander Hernandez of Cordoba and Diego Garcia of Paredes. These guys actually lived. Why Diego could stop a mill wheel with one finger! It doesn't matter how unbelievable the feats, as long as such heros actually existed.

I can't tell if the priest is expressing the views of the Church. Sometimes I think so, but here he seems to be speaking for Cervantes himself when he says,
"If I thought this was the right place and the right audience, I could tell you what these tales of chivalry would have to be, to become good books..., but I hope the time will come when I can communicate such things to someone who can to something about them."
I sense that this is Cervantes...preparing for Volume II. I hope so.

Pat H
June 8, 2006 - 06:59 pm
Marni, I wondered about Lothario, too. My Oxford English Dictionary mentions the Fair Penitent", but takes it back one step more to Davenant's "Cruel Brother", 1630. That's pretty close to Cervantes; I find it hard to believe the name is a coincidence.

Joan Pearson
June 8, 2006 - 07:09 pm
Pat, from Maryal's post, I get the idea that Cervantes lifted the story from another author to insert into this book. The story is set in Florence, Orlando furioso, a long epic poem by Ludovico Ariosto, published first in 1516. Marni Since Don Quixote (with Volume II) became an instant best seller, and has remained so ever since it first appeared, it would be no surprise that it influenced ALL writers of fiction to come.

It makes a difference knowing that The Story of the Nosey Impertinent is not original with Cervantes, but we can keep our eyes wide open to see why and how he fits it into the tale he's been telling up to this point. Don Fernando and Lothario? Dorotea and Camila?(Raffel spells it Lothario Are you ready for all three chapters of this tale?

ps. Marni, that explains it. U said "cute top" - I guess cleavage, not being a consideration for you, was not what you meant by "cute" - so I forgive you.

Deems
June 8, 2006 - 07:38 pm
Guest just left and I'm checking in one more time because tomorrow is museum day and I'll be in Baltimore and thus absent until probably late afternoon, maybe evening.

Yes, Joan P, that's what I meant to say, that the upcoming story is based on a part of Orlando furioso, published some 75 years before the first volume of Don Quixote.

Let's not worry about Cervantes borrowing a plot here and a plot there since Shakespeare did exactly the same thing. Once the creative mind takes hold of a plot, all sorts of magic happens.

Pat H
June 8, 2006 - 07:52 pm
Borrowing plots had a long honorable history by Cervantes' time. Chaucer borrowed from Boccaccio and others.

Pat H
June 8, 2006 - 08:01 pm
JoanP, your interpretation of the priest's speech about "what these tales of chivalry would have to be, to become good books" is more charitable than mine, and no doubt right. Cervantes surely had strong feelings about what makes a book good, and must have felt that most of the romances weren't up to his standards.

I tend to be suspicious of someone so ready to destroy books as the priest, and not very willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

By the way, I thought the top looked fine in the picture you posted--very attractive.

Pat H
June 8, 2006 - 08:36 pm
Question 4: If the folks at the inn think the tales are foolish, why are they all so eager to hear the story? With the exception of the priest, I don't think they think they tales are foolish in themselves, more that it is foolish to take them seriously and believe they apply to present conditions. Some of them enjoyed such tales very much.

1amparo
June 8, 2006 - 09:23 pm
...and stories of damsels left in the lurch by insidious womanizers. It is said that Cervantes took most of those stories from his own sisters; three of them, never married, (on the proper sense) and were left to fight in court the broken promises of marriage. It seems they won their cases however never collected the moneys awarded by the courts. Apart from the one sister intern in a convent from very early age, all the others were “free spirited” and had several very intimated liaisons to their names. Documents of some of the court cases are kept in archives.

Amparo

1amparo
June 8, 2006 - 10:38 pm




1782 facsimile copy of English DQ and brief biography of Cervantes.
(DQ starts after page XX)
Click on "Premer" and when you are ready on "seguent"

Amparo

1amparo
June 8, 2006 - 11:12 pm
Cervantes' own elegant handwriting

LOL the link 884 is DQ IN English not "of"

Amparo

hats
June 9, 2006 - 04:37 am
Amparo, thank you for the links. I am anxious to look at the handwriting.

marni0308
June 9, 2006 - 10:25 am
His writing certainly is elegant. Thanks for the links, Amparo! It looks like the Smollett version of Don Quixote.

In both links, Cervantes' name is stated as "Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra."

Do you know what "Saavedra" means?

Joan Pearson
June 9, 2006 - 04:39 pm
Heavy downpours on and off today - much needed rain, won't complain. And until the new air conditioner and heating system go in on Wednesday, please cross fingers and say a little prayer that the temperatures stay low - lower than 90! We're expecting husband's brother, his daughter and her two toddlers to stay with us between Sunday and Wednesday.

{{{Jan}}}, I'm sorry to have missed you in here yesterday! I don't know how that happened, but was delighted to see you here just now! Your mother is so fortunate to have a caring daughter as yourself. We should all be so lucky!

I'm having a hard time thinking of you "blanching" - back on the trail all by yourself trying to catch up with us. You have so much to fight through all alone. I hope you read through the posts as you try to catch up. You might want to use the questions that accompanied each chapter - you'll find them at the bottom of the header. Does anyone here have any suggestions for Jan to make this easier for her?

Amparo, what interesting biographical material on Cervantes' own sisters! He knew first hand about broken promises of marriage! I had suspected that he himself may have been involved in something like that, but you have solved the mystery!

Cervantes' handwriting is beautiful! Thank you for providing the link so we could see it! I tidied it up for you so the long link didn't scroll off the right side of the page. Here's a tip for bringing such links to the discussion
Posting urls from other websites//
Between the quotation marks, paste the url from your browser window. We keep this little formula up in the heading here in the Related links.

I'm looking forward hearing your ideas on why Cervantes thought it would be a good idea to insert the story of Anselmo. Lothario and Camila here. I'm thinking the reason has to be something to do with Camila's response to Lothario's declarations of love and Dorotea's submission to Fernado's persistent courtship? Why did each girl weaken to her persistent suitor?

Raffel who hasn't many footnotes, certainly nothing like Grossman's, includes an interesting article on this triangle, but I think it would be better to wait until you've all read the story and we've talked it over first. The article is rather sensational and I'm not sure how it relates to Don Quixote's tale.

1amparo
June 9, 2006 - 06:29 pm
Thanks JoanP for fixing the links. I tried but could not get the link to open up, could it have been the <" "> kept on changing to Spanish mode??

G’day Jan, nice to see you here. Fear not for here you have many DQs to come to your aid and see that you are amongst the knights before you can say “Pardiez”.

“Pardiez”: = Old Spanish to say God’s Help.

Cheers!

Amparo

Pat H
June 9, 2006 - 07:14 pm
Jan--Welcome back. What you did was hard, but one doesn't regret it afterward, indeed, one finds it very important to have done it. We are moving at such a pace that you can catch up OK. Especially, we are starting to discuss an extra story inserted into the main story. You could ignore that for now, and catch up on the rest. Or, ignore the main story and start in on the other. Anyway, don't give up on us, we want you back.

marni0308
June 9, 2006 - 07:45 pm
4. "He who hunts the impossible may in perfect justice find himself denied that which is possible." How does this observation fit this story? Does it connect in any way to Don Quixote's quest?

I love this quote. It fits a number of characters in Don Quixote.

Someone searching for the impossible is inevitably going to fail in his goal. Failure is the ultimate result. By focusing on the impossible dream, putting one's energies into that quest, one may not realize happinesses and successes that are occurring along the way and that are obvious to others.

Anselmo had a beautiful loving wife and a very good close friend. Birds in the hand. This alone was not enough for him and it did not make him happy. He needed more. In the end, he wanted the impossible. He required proof of Camilla's love in the face of powerful sexual temptation from the reluctant casenova, Lothario. Anselmo required proof of Lothario's friendship by forcing him to - nearly - seduce Camilla. To be happy, Anselmo placed extreme, ultimately impossible, temptations in the faces of both his wife and his friend. Anselmo proved to each of them that he was hollow. Anselmo failed in his quest for the impossible and lost the loves he had possessed.

In a way, Cardenio, too, searched for the impossible from his love by skulking near the altar with the tantalizing thought that she might kill herself for him rather than marry another.

Don Quixote, too, was tempted by the impossible, the chivalric tests of manhood like those in his books of fiction. He missed life's small pleasures - perhaps that's what drove him to the impossible - and so he created a world that didn't exist. He denied himself possible happinesses with family and friends by hunting for the impossible.

1amparo
June 9, 2006 - 09:19 pm
Cervantes was born as: Miguel de Cervantes. At some stage later in life he added "Saavedra". The latter name it appears belonged to some of his ancestors, however no documents exist, so far, as to Maternal or Paternal. Ever since he has been known as "Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra", or "Cervantes"

Sorry I took sometime to answer your question, I had not read it properly. Mea culpa!

Amparo

marni0308
June 9, 2006 - 09:56 pm
Thanks, Amparo! Interesting about his last name. I've never heard that before.

I found out the a person I used to be acquainted with has the last name of Cervantes. I had only known him by his first name. I was surprised to find that out. I wonder if Cervantes is a common name.

1amparo
June 10, 2006 - 12:10 am
Is a Surname that whether Miguel de Cervantes made it if not as much as "common" at least better known...

Amparo

Mippy
June 10, 2006 - 03:57 am
The question: Why didn't Anselmo come from his hiding place to stop ... Camila's plan to stab herself after overhearing ...? After last evening, catching up on the reading (during the baseball game, no less), I'm focused on this novella.

Was Cervantes using this as an attention-getting plot devise?
As a playwrite does, when a character has a health crisis, to move the plot forward,
an a modern example, in The Man Who Came to Dinner ...
Was Cervantes showing that Anselmo was doomed to an unhappy future?
Was Camila actually wanting to hurt herself to punish Anselmo?
Was a sad ending the goal of Cervantes? Would that be the ending a typical novel of that period? Who can help out with any of these ideas?

JoanK
June 10, 2006 - 05:05 am
Thunderstorms and business kept me from the computer for a few days. I too feel overwhelmed by the number of posts. Excuse me for commenting on past issues.

JAN: we all fall behind sometimes. If I feel overwhelmed, I may skip the past posts (JoanP and Deems didn't hear that!).

Hey, if you've still got cleavage, go for it (sigh).

I think some of you made the same mistake I did. Sancho's tale of his encounter with Dulcinea was so real, that I forgot that he made it up. Cervantes reminds us that he's never actually seen her. (I suspect Cervantes forgot that too when writing Sancho's reply. Sancho doesn't seem that inventive -- although maybe he's learning from the Don).

Joan Pearson
June 10, 2006 - 07:19 am
Good morning - Impossible Dreamers, all!

Marni - That's it! Cervantes' message - the answer to the question posed in the header! Where's Eloise? I think this is important. (Maybe there will be another such awakening, but this one just may be "it"! I would love to know how your translations handled this:
"He who hunts the impossible may in perfect justice find himself denied that which is possible."
To this point, I thought it was advantageous to have an "Impossible Dream" - but consider what Cervantes is saying here! And consider what Marni just said - "Someone searching for the impossible is inevitably going to fail in his goal. Failure is the ultimate result. By focusing on the impossible dream, putting one's energies into that quest, one may not realize happiness and successes that are occurring along the way and that are obvious to others." What do YOU think?
***********************

I'm considering the advice you are giving to Jan. What a sweetheart she is! I hate thinking about her back on the trail trying to catch up all alone, reading and plowing through all those posts - (no offense taken, JoanK. ) I'm thinking too of others like her. What do you think of this idea ~ we could ask her to join us right where we are now, BEFORE catching up. Read the pages we are reading and encourage her to ask questions when she doesn't understand? Oh, there will be many of them, but we're asking questions ourselves about things we have forgotten from earlier pages! As you point out, PatH, we're moving at such as slow pace, Jan would have time to go back over earlier chapters, but be right here with us all the time. Does that make sense? What do you think?

hats
June 10, 2006 - 07:35 am
"He who hunts the impossible may in perfect justice find himself denied that which is possible."

That is a very heavy statement. Marni's interpretation helped me to, at least, try and reason the statement out. To follow an impossible dream means to always place ourselves in the way of disappointment. Does this mean that we are on a journey with the Don that will ultimately lead to his pain and sorrow? If this is so, what will become of the Don? If he is already mad, what will extreme disappointment do to him?

Joan Pearson
June 10, 2006 - 07:49 am
Borrowing plots...most of these "couples" and "triangles" love stories are borrowed plots. One clue is the change in setting...Cardenio's and Anselmo's are borrowed. One clue is the setting...and the Italian names. (Anselmo's story is set in Florence.) Cervantes has taken the plots and mingled them with his own original "knight's tale". Mippy, I don't know if Anselmo's story ending was typical. Let's watch and see what happens in Cardenio's story.

Our task here, I think, is to figure out why he, (Cervantes) has chosen to use these particular tales when he does.
Mippy wonders if he is using Anselmo's story as an attention-getting devise. "Was Cervantes showing that Anselmo was doomed to an unhappy future?" Mippy, when considering Marni's, post, I can see how it fits into Don Quixote's impossible dream. A sad ending for anyone who seeks the "impossible" overlooking the "possible?" Hats do you think we are to anticipate a sad ending to this "comedy"? As you point out, the poor man is already mad, delusional. The only thing worse that I can think of - that he awaken to the reality of the situation. For him, this might be worse than death?

"Was Camila actually wanting to hurt herself to punish Anselmo?"

Well, she knows he's secretly spying on the scene when she plans to stab herself. Was she trying to punish Anselmo, or to convince him that he was wrong in suspecting her affair with Lotario? Just now I'm thinking of another stabbing - Luscinda planned to stab herself rather than marry Fernando to prove her love for Cardenio. Did we ever hear the answer as to why she didn't go through with it? What is it with these beautiful young women? They seem to have few options. Death, or the convent...or settle into an arranged marriage.

ps - Pat H - the photo posted was from the graduation the night before the reunion. The questionable top was worn at the reunion. I have yet to see and censor the reunion photos if the comment made was correct. Stay tuned. JoanK, I'm laughing at the whole idea too. But maybe pictures don't lie? Anyway, if it's true, it's still Marni's fault!

pps - I've a question for you - I'm experimenting with writing the posts with both brown and black font, attempting to learn is you have any trouble reading the brown. Is the black easier for you to read, or are they equal. The reason I use the brown is simpy that it is easier for me to scroll back through the posts to the brown when I come in to spot the first post since I was here last. BUT if you have trouble reading the brown, I can figure out something else. What do you see?

Deems
June 10, 2006 - 09:37 am
And once again it is afternoon before I get here. This is marni's fault. I don't remember just why but I'm pretty sure it's marni. Or. . . it might be my daughter who has decided that during my summer off she must increase my art education. Yesterday was the Baltimore Museum of Art. Soon it's the Wyeth show at the Philadelphia Museum. Over 100 works by Wyeth. The last show I saw there was Cezanne and it was room after room after room after room after room--with no place to sit except one area a little past the middle of the show.

Cezanne was huge. Beautiful indeed but way, way long. Mostly it was the no place to sit and just look at something that got to me. I am no good at the shuffle along and stand and shuffle along and stand routine. My back starts to ache fairly early on.

Note to Jan--All the conversational stuff from me can be skipped with no penalty! Welcome back.

Note to Joan K--you get a pardon from me too. There's no strict syllabus here, thank heaven.

Note to Amparo--I was wondering about the last name too and I thank you for giving us the explanation.

I loved seeing Cervantes' handwriting. I also love the link to the early translation and its illustrations. Thank you.

OK, I am behind.

But I do have a couple of remarks to make about chap. XXXII in which Sancho, Don Q, the priest, the barber and Dorotea return to the inn of the blanket-tossing and the innkeeper comments on the three books of chivalry he has.

In addition to all that has been said before about the priest and his objections to any book that purports to be the mere invention of its author and not a book about a real historical figure and his desire to burn two out of three (!) of the books the innkeeper has, I think something else is going on.

In the first part of the chapter we get the reactions of the innkeeper, his wife, and his daughter to these tales. What I find interesting is that none of them can read. Instead they depend upon several of the helpers at harvest time, one or two of whom can read. They listen to the stories.

Each gathers something different from hearing the stories. The innkeeper gets caught up in the action and thinks he would enjoy a few battles and beatings himself. His wife, Maritornes, is happy when he is listening to the stories because he is leaving her alone. "You get so caught up that you forget about arguing with me," she tells her husband. She then admits that she likes listening to the stories too "especially when they tell about a lady under some orange trees in the arms of her knight. "

The priest then asks the daughter what she thinks. The daughter listens too and thinks that some of the scornful ladies who are like "tigers" and who cruelly reject their knights ought to simply stop being so heartless and accept the knight: "I don't know the reason for so much stiffness: if they're so virtuous, let them marry, which is just what their knights want."

What strikes me here is that most of the people hearing these tales are indeed hearing them in the grand old tradition of one reader and many listeners, all with different responses to what they hear, all with different favorite parts.

Reading aloud was like going to the movies today. Audience members have completely different responses to movies when asked what their favorite parts are.

Cervantes, being the wise old fox that he is, know this and will therefore put different stories into his big book that will appeal to different hearers.

~Maryal

Deems
June 10, 2006 - 10:59 am
When the priest says that such things as novels are for entertainment only, for those who "do not have to" or "should not" or "cannot" work, I immediately thought of the rich nobles who have others do their work for them. Everyone else is supposed to be working.

Talk about a rigid social hierarchy. Even entertainment is reserved for the wealthy. All the rest, say 95% of the population, must be content to work, eat, sleep and produce another generation of drudges.

hats
June 10, 2006 - 01:12 pm
Deems, I just noticed the quote underneath your name. I love the quote. I believe in the truth of the quote. I also love the fact that it's a quote by Cervantes.

It's becoming interesting for me to think about the many different ways societies chose to think of reading. During American slavery most of those who owned slaves thought the ability to read would lead to slaves wanting to flex their muscles and become free.

In other times or eras of History, if women were seen reading Jane Austen or maybe the Brontes it was thought a waste of time. If any love matches were involved, I guess it was a pursuit without purpose. Therefore, that type of reading seemed silly.

I think someone here already posted about censorship. I think this is what we deal with today. People striving to choose what is right for a society to read. Really, in all centuries, isn't it all about censorship or no?

Deems, your post also made my mind think of "Reading Lolita in Tehran." Azar Nafisi, the author, made me realize books free us and give us strength to fight intellectually. What did the books of chivalry do for those who read them during the sixteenth century? I think the innkeeper and the others give the answer. I need to reread the chapter. How did people feel about books of chivalry? Did they really feel reading these books would make you lose your mind? Did the church feel people reading these were filling their minds with trash? How did people during the sixteenth century feel about Cervantes book? Did they appreciate it as we are appreciating it? Were books of chivalry ever accepted as good literature? If so, when did the change come?

My mind is slow to wake up. If these questions have already been answered, ignore my post.

I noticed in the chapter the two or three books were passed around but it sounded like the book was printed out like notes??? In Cervantes centuries were books bound and put together as we know them today?

marni0308
June 10, 2006 - 10:43 pm
Yay! JoanP thought I had a good idea about Cervantes' quote! Maybe she'll forgive me for the "cute top" idea!

Maryal: Isn't Maritornes a servant rather the innkeeper's wife? Isn't she the one who landed in bed with Sancho in the hysterical inn night scene back before he was tossed in the blanket? Maybe I'm just too confused.

marni0308
June 10, 2006 - 10:49 pm
Hats: I'm wondering about the censorship of the chivalric books, too. They were banned. I wonder if one reason books of chivalry and knights-errant were banned was because some of the Knighthood organizations, such as the Knights Templar, had gotten so powerful and wealthy in Europe that the church wanted to get rid of them and take their wealth. And they did.

I wonder, too, if the banning of the books of chivalry had anything to do with the thousands of tragic deaths by dueling in that era in Europe? Duels were the manly thing. I think they were an evolution of chivalric behavior. I read that in France alone, in one decade, 20,000 men died by dueling. The King of France banned dueling in France, too. Leave it to men. I guess it's their nature and their hormones.

I was watching the World Cup soccer games this weekend. I'm thinking that some sports for men today are forms of dueling and help men to release some of that pent up testosterone that leads to duels and warfare.

marni0308
June 10, 2006 - 10:56 pm
I think some of the women in Don Quixote are pretty masochistic. They'll be intelligent and witty one minute, and the next minute they're threatening to kill themselves for love or demean themselves over some jerks who treat them badly. Aaarrrgghhh. Somebody (Maryal?) was right - the women did that or married or ended up in a convent.

I recently read "Galileo's Daughter." I forget the author. What a book. It's a true story about Galileo mainly, but also about his brilliant daughter. Galileo didn't have enough money to make a good match for his daughter, so he forced her into a convent FOR LIFE. She had to become a nun, for heaven's sake. It was just so sad.

hats
June 11, 2006 - 02:18 am
Marni, I don't know if I can keep all of these love tangles straights. I hope all of the women and men don't start blending together. For some reason, I have been angrier at the men than the women. I need to pay more attention to the deeds of the women. Are the women totally different from one another or are they cookie cutter women?

I hate this silly contest Anselmo made up to test his wife. His friend is honorable. He doesn't want to take part in a test of Camila's character, whether she will prove true or false to her marriage vows.

Why would a man want to test his wife in this way? I know it shows a lack of maturity and it's a bit sneaky. It doesn't seem as though Camila has done anything less than righteous since their marriage.

hats
June 11, 2006 - 02:57 am
These love entanglements, tests, jealousies do remind me of Shakespeare's plays. I read a few in school. I remember a lot of playfulness in a "Midsummer's Night Dream." I think we mentioned Shakespeare and Cervantes earlier in the discussion. Did Cervantes and Shakespeare live at the same time? Although one lived in Spain and one in England were their writings ever compared? Should I think of Shakespeare while reading Cervantes novel? Are there similarities? Are Shakespeare's plays called plays of chivalry?

In Chapter XXXIV "persecuted Penelope" is mentioned. Is "Penelope" from a Shakespearean play?

The contest thought up by Anselmo reminds me of a type of dueling. No guns are involved but emotions are running high. I feel a tragedy will happen. Whoops, I should have continued reading. There is blood.

Marni, in another discussion gave a lot of information about "dueling."

hats
June 11, 2006 - 03:22 am
1. persecuted Penelope{Camila}


2. Lucretia{Camila}


3. Portia{Camila}


I guess Camila is a pretty complex woman. A woman whom Cervantes wants remembered because Camila is identified with three different women.

hats
June 11, 2006 - 03:28 am
I don't know why Anselmo didn't come out of his hiding place. I think he should have come out quickly and wrestled the dagger from her hands. He didn't do anything. Anselmo is just like Cardenio, I think. Cardenio chose to remain in the Cork tree doing nothing but being depressed. Anselmo remains behind a door. Cervantes' men seem nothing like Don Q. At least, Don Q takes a bull by the horns. Don Q takes action. Don Q is not a coward. Fernando took action but his actions were unworthy of chivalry. In a way, he is a coward too.

Mippy
June 11, 2006 - 03:50 am
Your question yesterday about brown vs. black:
Black is a bit easier to see, but the brown print is ok for me.

JoanK
June 11, 2006 - 05:45 am
I have no trouble with the brown. It doesn't seem like your post without it.

1amparo
June 11, 2006 - 06:11 am
Shakespeare and Cervantes died same day, same year, April 23 1616.

According to the experts Shakespeare did know about Cervantes and had heard about DQ and his earlier works. However, Cervantes did not know about Shakespeare because no English books had been translated into Spanish in those times, as yet.

Here is what John Ormsby said in 1885:

“Thomas Shelton wrote the first English translation of Don Quixote between 1612 and 1620; Shelton had the inestimable advantage of belonging to the same generation as Cervantes; "Don Quixote" had to him a vitality that only a contemporary could feel; it cost him no dramatic effort to see things as Cervantes saw them; there is no anachronism in his language; he put the Spanish of Cervantes into the English of Shakespeare. Shakespeare himself most likely knew the book; he may have carried it home with him in his saddle-bags to Stratford on one of his last journeys, and under the mulberry tree at New Place joined hands with a kindred genius in its pages. “

Penelope was the wife of Ulysses. She was “persecuted” by few admires who wanted to force her into choosing one them for husband. And after all those years being away, Ulysses came-back just in the nick of time to save her!

LOL JoanP, you use colour I use my signature.

Amparo

hats
June 11, 2006 - 06:17 am
Amparo I do remember now someone mentioning that Shakespeare and Cervantes died on the same day. Isn't that something to think about? Wow! Thank you for all the interesting information. I love this part.

"Shakespeare himself most likely knew the book; he may have carried it home with him in his saddle-bags to Stratford on one of his last journeys, and under the mulberry tree at New Place joined hands with a kindred genius in its pages. “

By the way, Amparo, I love your signature. Oh, thanks for the information about "Penelope too."

1amparo
June 11, 2006 - 06:20 am
My pleasure, Hats. and my thanks to you too.

Deems
June 11, 2006 - 08:16 am
marni--Yes, Maritornes is the servant, not the wife of the innkeeper. My error. I guess we don't have the wife's response to hearing stories read out loud.

Deems
June 11, 2006 - 08:35 am
Hats--The whole story of Anselmo, Lotario and Camila makes me angry too, and right from the very beginning. No lover should put his/her love to the test. There are temptations enough in this life without setting up one of your own. Lotario was initially very resistant to Anselmo's plan. He even came up with a plan to make Anselmo think he was going through with it but eventually what with all those hours and hours of time alone with Camila, he did fall in love with her.

What makes me angry is the ending which I'll comment on later to allow everyone to have time to get to the ending.

Penelope = faithful wife of Odysseus/Ulysees who was away from home for the ten years of the Trojan war and then ten years getting home, with one adventure after another on the sea.

Portia = wife of Brutus, friend and assassin of Julius Caesar

Lucretia = (from the Encyclopedia Britannica)" legendary heroine of ancient Rome. According to tradition, she was the beautiful and virtuous wife of the nobleman Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus. Her tragedy began when she was raped by Sextus Tarquinius, son of Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the tyrannical Etruscan king of Rome. After exacting an oath of vengeance against the Tarquins from her father and her husband, she stabbed herself to death. Lucius Junius Brutus then led the enraged populace in a rebellion that drove the Tarquins from Rome. The event (traditionally dated 509 BC) marks the foundation of the Roman Republic. "

Both Shakespeare and Cervantes, exact contemporaries as Amparo points out, had access to the stories and myths of ancient Greece and Rome.

Orlando furioso upon which the story of Anselmo et al. is based was extremely popular from the time it was first published in 1516. Cervantes' readers would have been familiar with it.

Maryal

hats
June 11, 2006 - 09:58 am
Maryal, thank you for answering my questions so fully. The name "Portia" rang a small bell in my head because of reading Julius Ceasar here on Seniornet with Ginny as DL.

Anyway, I can't wait to hear your comment about the ending.

You know that name "Orlando" rings a bell too. I am relating it, wrongly I suppose, to something Virginia Woolfe wrote. I know you wrote more about Orlando earlier in the discussion. I am going back to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Deems
June 11, 2006 - 10:06 am
Hats--You are something else! Yes, V. Woolf did write a novel called "Orlando" (1928). I had to look it up to get the date of publication. I've never read it, but apparently it's a fantasy novel about a person who is a male in the time of Shakespeare and then a female in 1928. It would be interesting to see how that time jump is made.

Maryal

hats
June 11, 2006 - 10:16 am
Maryal, you are something else too. After I wrote Orlando and Virginia Woolf. I thought my brain had a memory lapsed. I thought Maryal is going to think my coop has really flown. Thank goodness you gave the information. Thanks.

hats
June 11, 2006 - 10:17 am
Boy, I would like to see how V. Woolf pulls that "time jump" off too.

marni0308
June 11, 2006 - 10:22 am
Shakespeare had another important Portia character in another play. In The Merchant of Venice Portia is a wealthy woman who, disguised as a lawyer, saves the life of Antonio with her wit and intelligence. Antonio is the man who owes Shylock and Shylock demands from him his "pound of flesh."

Here's a synopsis of the play:

http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/merchant/

hats
June 11, 2006 - 10:30 am
Marni, thanks for the link.

Pat H
June 11, 2006 - 04:41 pm
Virginia Woolf's "Orlando" is really a disguised biography of Victoria Sackville-West. If you aren't a dedicated Brit-watcher and don't know who V. S-W. was it loses some of its point, but it still makes a good read. Indeed, the main character starts out male in Elizabethan times, turns female later, and continues to live up to the present time (1928). Three scenes are memorable to me: the first is a description of the Thames freezing over in Elizabethan times, with people skating on it, setting up tents, etc. The second occurs in a salon in London in the time of Pope. Various literary types are exchanging what they think of as witty literary epigrams, when someone comes in, says three genuinely witty things, and leaves the rest to slink away, their tails between their legs. The third is a remarkable description of the beginning of the Victorian era, starting with a blot of ink, and leading on to the stifling, elaborate fecundity and oppressive prudery of the time.

An excellent movie was made of it in 1992, with Tilda Swinton doing a superb job as Orlando, and the drag queen, Quentin Crisp making a hilarious Queen Elizabeth.

Footnote: Victoria Sackville-West was a British noblewoman and author, wife of Sir Harold Nicolson, diplomat and author. They were members of the Bloomsbury set which included Virginia Woolf. In later years, both of them displayed gay tendencies, and Victoria was for a while the lover of Woolf, hence the sex change.

gumtree
June 12, 2006 - 01:44 am
I can just see you all on the horizon and hope nothing else happens this week to stop me catching up. In any case I'm here and with you in spirit.

On Shakespeare and Cervantes deaths being on the same date - I read somewhere that they were actually a couple of weeks apart in real time because Spain and England were using different calendars at that time - I guess the Julian and the Gregorian respectively. Does anyone know if this is right?

Pat H. - a great take on Orlando (and Vita too) It's a good novel and perhaps a better film though I thought Woolf managed some really good moments in the actual book. The iced over Thames scenes really stayed with me.

BTW Amparo - Long ago you mentioned difficulty in obtaining Manchego cheese over in Melbourne. I know of a few outlets here in Perth - one is less than 1KM from my home, It's a specialty grocer with a controlled temperature fromagerie (among other delights) He's expensive but just great for those special purchases. Manchego runs about $A70 per kilo - delicious, nutty with a hint of olive and a flavour that builds up.

The Don is growing on me - as is Sancho - the Don seems to have a strong sense of the fitness of things even if he is muddled. I'm reading the Cardenio story now and have to admit that the humour is getting to me. I'm not one for the comedy - positively dislike Shakespearean comedy so I have much to overcome in reading Cervantes.

There is a small fishing/beach/holiday town on the coast a little to the north of here named Cervantes. I think it was named after a ship wrecked on the reefs up there. Will check it out.

gumtree
June 12, 2006 - 01:57 am
The township of Cervantes in West Aust - was named after an American whaling ship wrecked in 1844 when it was blown ashore during a gale. so one way or another Miguel has evidently had a global impact.

hats
June 12, 2006 - 02:36 am
Hi Gumtree I am glad you are back. You aren't far behind, maybe not behind at all. JoanP is allowing us to enjoy the view along the way. This gives the mounts time to rest and drink water. PatH Thanks for more information about "Orlando."

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 03:30 am
G'Day mate! I have been celebrating Queen's Birthday and Volunteers Day today! Aren't we lucky here in OZ?. By the way I am in Adelaide.

Yes, you are quite right about Shakespeare - Cervantes death dates: Shakespeare had been dead ten days when Cervantes died. England had the Julian calendar still hence were ten days ahead of the new Gregorian calendar. So in fact, although both of them died "23" April, in England it would have been the 3rd of May when Cervantes died.

Am I right, is it the Gregorian we are using now??? I am not good at numbers... I am confused and lost!!

Amparo

PS. Gumtree, if you are coming to conference you will get 1st prize for mileage, mate! (I will get 2nd prize )

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 03:40 am
Just had a look at Julian v Gragorian calendars in Internet: now I can honestly say; I am totally confused!!!!

Mippy
June 12, 2006 - 03:49 am
... confused, again, on the dusty trail ...
What is the connection with Virginia Woolf's "Orlando"?
Have I taken a wrong turn ...?
To what place are the rest of you supporters of our estemed DQ heading?

Yes, I know about the header, Chap. XXXV, but I've lost the conversational stream ... is my mule slow?

You ask: Is the knight's mission accomplished now that he believes he has overcome the giant?
Doesn't DQ just go on to the next quest? As usual? I haven't read beyond that event.

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 03:56 am
LOL!!

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 04:13 am
Gumtree, of course you people in WA have got the Spanish Monastery with a couple of very old Spanish monks still about... right? They would had had the recipe to make the real "macoy" manchego.

But nonetheless, I would much rather have the "real original macoy" from La Mancha.

Amparo

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 04:45 am
From the Internet:-

"April 23, 1616

William Shakespeare, Miguel De Cervantes Shakespeare, Cervantes and World Book Day by Steve King

print tell a friend comment

On this day in 1616 both William Shakespeare and Miguel de Cervantes died, thus prompting UNESCO to declare today "World Book and Copyright Day." The declaration may also have been inspired by a third death on this day, that of William Wordsworth in 1850. As April 23 is also the generally accepted date of Shakespeare's birth (based on baptismal records), the day is even more momentous. (On the other hand, some say that Cervantes really died on April 22, and in any case the claim that both died on the same day relies on a calculation correlating the new Gregorian calendar of Cervantes's Spain to the old Julian calendar still in use in Shakespeare's England ... FULL STORY » "



I am still none the wiser when it comes to "calendars". It could well be that Shakespeare was still alive when Cervantes died?, thus The Englishman's death was on 3 may?... and I only had ONE glass of chapagne!

Amparo

Joan Pearson
June 12, 2006 - 05:36 am
Good morning! I keep forgetting how impossible it is to get up early and catch up with you all with two toddlers staying in the house! They are up before dawn! And it's raining today, so crazy pup and scared little girls are confined to the house this morning! Little Rachel and Grace will be with us until Wednesday morning, so every moment in here is stolen time!

Hats asks a whole bunch of interesting questions about books and reading in Cervantes'time. Gutenberg's printing press in the mid 15th century, beginning with the Bible led to an explosion of interest and accessibility of books..."fueling"the Renaissance"...putting books in the hands of many. Before this time, the monks laboriously hand made copies of selected texts. Now the production of books was in the hands of the layman. The Inquisition made attempts to eliminate unapproved texts, but the horse was now out of the barn! Still, there are aggressive attempts at this time to censor books - expecially these tales of chivalry! I see Cervantes' humor in the character of the priest - who appreciates these stories as much as everyone else! He "finds nothing to criticize" in the story - except that he can't believe that there's a husband like Anselmo who would risk anything that would cost him so much.
"Although Gutenberg was financially unsuccessful in his lifetime, his invention spread quickly, and news and books began to travel across Europe much faster than before. It fed the growing Renaissance, and since it greatly facilitated scientific publishing, it was a major catalyst for the later scientific revolution. The ability to produce many copies of a new book, and the appearance of Greek and Latin works in printed form was a major factor in the Reformation. Literacy also increased dramatically as a result. Gutenberg's inventions are sometimes considered the turning point from the Middle Ages to the Early Modern Period." Gutenberg's Printing Press

hats
June 12, 2006 - 05:51 am
JoanP Thank you for the link and interesting information.

Joan Pearson
June 12, 2006 - 06:04 am
Good morning, Hats! Great questions!

Much talk of Orlando yesterday...maybe forgetting what Cervantes had to say about him in Chapter XXV - Orlando was Roland - same story:
"Have I not told thee," answered Don Quixote, "that I mean to imitate Amadis here, playing the victim of despair, the madman, the maniac, so as at the same time to imitate the valiant Don Roland, when at the fountain he had evidence of the fair Angelica having disgraced herself with Medoro... and through grief thereat went mad, and perpetrated a hundred thousand other outrages worthy of everlasting renown and record? And though I have no intention of imitating Roland, or Orlando, or Rolando (for he went by all these names)"
Cervantes seems to be acknowledging a woman's power - for good or for bad in these old tales. Is the same true for the women in his own time?

Oh look - Gum has joined us on the trail! We've missed you! We've been stalling for the stragglers. Mippy points out (rightfully) that we are to start XXXVI today - and we shall - look, we're back in "real" time... new guests approach the inn interrupting story time. Can it be Luscinda? But who is that with her?

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 07:35 am
DANCING a jig. Towhoo Tohoo. . . . .whoot..........I am caught up. Had to catch up because the great Philadelphia Museum tour is coming up this week. Wyeth, over one hundred. Daughter assures me Philadelphia is two and a half hours away, but I'm thinking three, plus the show, plus the drive home.

Since the little terriers can't be left for too long, this is going to be one exhausting trip. BUT, I bought this weekend, a folding canvas three legged chair that has a strap for carrying it over the shoulder to take to the museum. It's actually quite comfortable for what it is and a whole lot better than attempting to lean surreptitiously on walls.

Anyway, I have read the next chapter and much of the next one.

Where's Jan? Good to see that Gum is catching up. Keep coming, Gum. Where's Andrea? Most likely with the grandgirls or tending to Bill.

And Phyll? Hellloooooo, Phyll.

Maryal

hats
June 12, 2006 - 07:39 am
Maryal, I am so envious. I would love to go on that trip with you and "Daughter." I love Wyeth paintings. I have only enjoyed the paintings in art books. Bring something back for us that is easy to post. Have fun!!

hats
June 12, 2006 - 07:41 am
Where is Eloise? I miss her.

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 07:43 am
Hats, you are most welcome to come with us. I'll even let you borrow the chair. I love Wyeth too and thus agreed to go. I think Eloise is so busy with getting the plans together for the Bash in Montreal that she can't do much else.

marni0308
June 12, 2006 - 10:58 am
Maryal: That's wonderful that you'll get to see the Wyeth exhibit. I had hoped to see it on my recent trip to Philadelphia, but we ran out of time. However, we made it to the Brandywine River Museum which has a large Wyeth family collection. It was fabulous! Have you seen the Jamie Wyeth painting "The Raven"? I just loved that.

I was so sad when I saw an Andrew Wyeth painting that showed a house in the distance with a railroad track running next to it. The narrator on my tape referred to the tragedy of N.C. Wyeth, Andrew's father. I found out later that N.C. was driving his car across railroad tracks with his 3-year old grandson and stopped on the tracks. They were hit by a train and both killed. I had never heard about that before. How horrible.

marni0308
June 12, 2006 - 11:01 am
JoanP: Thanks for the info about Gutenberg and the link to the Gutenberg Bible info. Good timing for me. On Saturday, we're going down to the Beinecke Rare Books and Manuscripts Museum at Yale. They own and exhibit one of the few remaining Gutenberg Bibles left in the world. Should be interesting.

gumtree
June 12, 2006 - 11:17 am
Amparo - off topic again - I was talking about the real McCoy - Manchego imported from Spain - and yes we do have the Spanish Monastery - they go in for Olives and bread rather than cheese - and have a rather wonderful art collection.

gumtree
June 12, 2006 - 11:20 am
Thanks to all for the welcome back - I've been watching the soccer tonight - Oz triumphant 3.0 over Japan - sorry about the USA going down to the Czechs.

marni0308
June 12, 2006 - 11:37 am
Oh, man, I just watched some of the US/Czech game. What a disaster for the US. We were just sluggish. No energy. I wonder what happened.

hats
June 12, 2006 - 01:45 pm
I am beginning to enjoy the stories within stories. I love how the priest is interrupted from his reading and goes back to start and finish the story about Anselmo and Camilo and Loratio.

I think Chapter XXXV is just too hilarious. I laughed so hard my stomach started hurting. The Don believes he is fighting the giant. He really believes the giant's head has been slashed open by his power. There is blood. The blood is the wine from the slashed open wineskins. Oh boy!! Marni, did you laugh too? It's just too funny. Did everybody laugh?? I hope so.

Well, I have to read chapter xxxvi. I think this picks up where the priest left off in his book reading.

Sancho is believing the Don has conquered the giant. Sancho is looking for a dying giant with a long beard. I tell you Cervantes must have been a man with a good sense of humor. It's impossible not to laugh.

marni0308
June 12, 2006 - 02:20 pm
Hats: I DID laugh! Can you just picture it! And the Don was SLEEPWALKING when he "killed" the giant! (He was probably sleepwalking without any pants on! - I don't remember.) The innkeeper was so angry. That was a lot of wine that spilled - many gallons.

Sancho just cracks me up. He is so gullible. And then when he figures out what is going on, he gets cranky with the Don, especially if the Don's actions interfere with Sancho's aspirations to become wealthy. But Sancho is protective of the Don, too.

hats
June 12, 2006 - 02:32 pm
That chapter was just too much. I know, the Don was asleep. I don't know how to explain Sancho's attitude. Is Sancho gullible or is he loyal to a fault? I think this long journey is making Sancho mad too.

Well, Cervantes knows how to take our emotions and roll them back and forth like a pendulum. He has true writing talent. One moment I am laughing so hard, then, I am crying over three needless deaths: Anselmo, Lothario and Camila have died. It's so sad. In a way, I almost felt angry with Anselmo. His silly trick or contest started all of the misunderstandings.

Did I miss it? What was Leonela going to tell Anselmo? I don't think it would have been any information about Camila's feelings for Lothario. I think Leonela was trustworthy, just involved in her love affair and keeping her job too.

Anyway, what a sad ending. I am trying to think. Are most of these stories within stories ending with unhappy endings? It's beginning to become hard for me to keep up with all the lovers.

I think Cervantes is a wonderful storyteller. No wonder this book has lived on through each century. How many times has it been translated and in how many languages? Well, I am definitely enjoying it.

Mippy, how are you liking DQ?

Mippy
June 12, 2006 - 02:33 pm
Love it!

hats
June 12, 2006 - 02:34 pm
Yippee!!

Pat H
June 12, 2006 - 04:36 pm
OK, I'm starting to read the next 3 chapters, but I don't want to move on without complaining about Anselmo. He really fries me; he's a perfect example of the pathological, jealous control freak. The best thing you can do if you come on such a person is run for your life. Even if Camila had been totally faithful, and given good proofs of it, the story wouldn't have had a happy ending, because such people are never satisfied. The source of their suspicion lies in themselves (in Anselmo's case probably the fact that he was something of an amorous adventurer before he was married) so nothing you can do will satisfy them. Eventually he would have had some new suspicion, with some new test, until finally she failed the test, or got completely fed up. I count myself lucky not ever to have had to deal with such a person.

Anselmo himself recognizes the pathology of his feelings; he says "you must realize that what I'm suffering from, now, is is the same disease that often afflicts women, when they have a longing to eat dirt, or plaster, or charcoal, or still worse things, nauseating to look at, but worse to swallow."

Pat H
June 12, 2006 - 04:46 pm
I feel luxuriously spoiled. I went to Whole Foods today and got another wedge of Manchego cheese. I don't know how Amparo would rate it, but it does come from Spain, and seems very tasty to me.

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 05:43 pm
I am ever so glad to read that you all seem to be "falling in love" with our three heroes: Cervantes, DQ, and Sancho. And I knew you would have belly-aches with laughter! I have read the book many times and still laugh with it.

Pat H; if the cheese is imported it will be good: Australia does not allow the importing of such foods.

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 05:57 pm
Pat H--Where is Whole Foods? And how strong is the cheese? I like cheese but my daughter says I'm sort of wimpy about it. I'm not one for strong cheeses in other words. If you could compare it to cheddar or something in that range, it would help.

I think Don Quixote and the Giant (Wineskins) is hilarious myself, also a much safer battle than the kind he often engages in when the person attacked can fight back. I'd rather see him go after a wineskin any time.

What a mess it must have been the next day though. And I do love Sancho's instructions to go out and retrieve the giant's head. Sancho tries to tell his master that it wasn't a giant, but he gets no further than he usually does.

I'm more than a little upset with Anselmo myself. What kind of person deliberately puts his best friend and his wife to the test? Isn't that more than a little crazy? "Lothario" is the star of something and to be a "Lothario" is to be a lover. What is it? An opera? A story?

I taught Shaara's The Killer Angels last semester. One of the Confederate generals, Lewis Armisted is nicknamed "Lo" short for Lothario, the lover. The joke is that he is no Don Juan but a good and faithful man. Armisted served under Pickett and died during the famous charge.

Anyway, as soon as I read the name "Lotario" I wonder what on earth Anselmo is doing. The man has a good wife and a best friend. And he decides to put everyone to the test?

I think he deserved to die, but I'd have liked the story better if Lotario and Camila (has anyone else noticed how rare double letters are in Spanish?) had run away together and lived happily ever after. (The whole end reminds me of the story of Arthur and Lancelot and Guinevere.)

Maryal

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 06:01 pm
amparo--Grossman translates some Spanish word --that I think must be one word--as "the two friends."

Here's much of the first sentence of Chapter XXXIII:

"In Florence. . . lived two wealthy, eminent gentlemen who were such good friends that they were known by everyone as the two friends.

Grossman has the italics there. I'm wondering if this is one of those one word things that she needs two words to translate?

Maryal

Ginny
June 12, 2006 - 06:02 pm
Oh please excuse a lurker Whole Foods Convert, they've opened one in Greenville and I go every week. I'll look for that cheese, I absolutely LOVE Whole Foods, did you see it on 60 Minutes last week? I promise I will not interrupt again!

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 06:18 pm
Hello Miss Ginny--Come on, girl, you are always welcome here!

And if you know anything about this Manchego cheese I keep hearing about (imported from Spain) please chime in.

Pat H
June 12, 2006 - 06:21 pm
No, it's not a one word expression. The Spanish says they were known as "los dos amigos". Raffel gives both the English and the Spanish.

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 06:26 pm
Thank you, Pat H, I wonder why on earth Grossman put italics?

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 06:27 pm
Who were those Greek twins? The diuscuri, deuscurie, some such. I know I don't have the spelling right. I thought there might be some Spanish version of that word.

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 06:29 pm
Dioscuri: Castor and Pollux (Polydeuces)--born with Helen and Clytemnestra. I looked it up.

marni0308
June 12, 2006 - 06:56 pm
I tried manchego cheese recently (from Costco) and found it delicious. My friends really like it, too. It is not strong - I would say not as strong as cheddar. It's mild. It has a firm smooth texture - slices nicely. It's called a semi-soft cheese, but I think it's firmer than that. Nice for slicing and eating alone or on a cracker. Delicious flavor. The only thing I didn't like about it was the coating. It's covered with a black sort of waxy coating that you have to cut off.

Pat H
June 12, 2006 - 07:10 pm
Castor and Pollux ended up in the sky as Gemini, the twins, one of the zodiac constellations. The Spanish word for twins is gemelos (or gemelas for women).

Pat H
June 12, 2006 - 07:20 pm
Deems, Whole Foods is what used to be Fresh Fields. There is one in Congressional Plaza (where I go) and a smaller one on River Road, near Little Falls Parkway. I would say the closest comparison to Manchego is a very strong Gruyere, but the taste is different. I don't like cheddar, so don't know how to compare.

Deems
June 12, 2006 - 08:40 pm
Pat H---oooooohh, yes, Fresh Fields. thanks, I know just where that store is. trying to remember if I like Gruyere.

Will have to try it.

gumtree
June 12, 2006 - 09:39 pm
Amparo W.Aust. does allow importation of cheeses. You must have different food regulations in SA than we have in WA - All the cheeses in the fromagerie I mentioned are imported from different parts of the world.

I wouldn't describe Manchego as semi soft but I guess it varies depending on how long it has matured - My choice recently was between 6 months and 12 months - the 12 was drier and more flavoursome YUMMY

Thanks, Amparo, for info on the calendars - I've always been confused when it comes to changeover dates. I think England swapped over to the Gregorian in 18th century??? 1747????

Joan P - please stick with the brown - it signals YOU.

1amparo
June 12, 2006 - 10:42 pm
"Queso (cheese) manchego" I shall ask David Jones Food Hall. I know when I lived in Sydney all we could get was "manchego style" and that was in the Spanish shop in Liverpool Street.

I am sending an e-mail to Australian Customs to see if next time I go to Spain I can bring some foods; it is heart-breaking when I am given a "present" (cheese, saffron etc.) to bring over and I have to reject it.

Pat H, you Spanish is spot-on, mate!!

Amparo

hats
June 13, 2006 - 02:46 am
Pat H I love your description of Anselmo. He was a "jealous control freak."

Deems, I wish Lothario and Camila had run away together too. One insecure man started all of these catastrophic events. Cervantes, I feel, is trying to tell us something with this tragic love story. When control and power are put into the wrong hands, whether one or many, lives are ruined. Nothing peaceful remains the same. Just think of how many lives Saddam Hussein ruined in Iraq. Innocent families torn apart because of torture or death. Only because of Saddam Hussein's fears or need to control every living soul in his country and surrounding countries, like Kuwait. Is Cervantes trying to say something about what led up to the Battle of Lepanto? Who or what causes led to his imprisonment and his hand injury? Was Cervantes fighting for a good cause?

Ginny, with JoanP's Gutenberg link I thought of the beautiful manuscripts you showed us in the "Shadow of the Wind" discussion. I think the printing of books is very interesting.

When women like Camila suffered troubles in the outside world, with their parents, in their marriages, were the nunneries or convents places they could run to for safety? It seemed so easy for Camila to enter or find permission to enter, was every poor soul so easily welcomed?

When I think of Lothario, I think of an opera. I only really know about one opera, "Madame Butterfly." That opera definitely doesn't fit the puzzle.

hats
June 13, 2006 - 02:52 am
Amparo, I bet that (cheese) manchego is delicious. Can you describe the flavor?

Mippy
June 13, 2006 - 03:46 am
Are we still eating cheese? Unfair to post so much about food ... I need to start breakfast soon.
Did everyone know the sobriquet for Whole Foods (where I have shopped, occasionally) is Whole Paycheck?

Back on subject: I was indeed confused by the newcomers? Do we find out who they really are later? Moors?

hats
June 13, 2006 - 04:21 am
Is Traude's mount alright? Traude always shares insight about subjects. I can't wait to see her mount come up from the rear.

Phyll
June 13, 2006 - 06:35 am
I just HAD to have some of that Manchega Cheese that you were all talking about so I rode that poor donkey all over the countryside looking for it and by golly! I found some!!! You are right! That is good stuff! I like it grated over pasta or over a fruit salad...makes no difference. But a little Manchega goes a long way, which a good thing because I had to take out a bank loan to buy just the smallest wedge!

But back to the story (in the manner of a Cervantes character), after all that traipsing around hunting for the cheese my donkey was pretty tired but, unfortunately he didn't have much time to rest and recover because I'd hardly had time to store the cheese when my refrigerator died! So, back out we went to search for a new fridge. What a traumatic experience that turned out to be! Talk about sticker shock! Anyway...to shorten this epic tale...my donkey couldn't stand the strain of all this to-ing and fro-ing and he up and died on me! In other words....I guess I "busted my a**"....and that's why I haven't been here for awhile.

It's been a struggle to catch up with you all and I've swallowed a lot of dust but maybe if someone will loan me another donkey I can rejoin the group?

signed, Phyll of the 'Sore'ful Feet

hats
June 13, 2006 - 06:59 am
Hi Phyll, I know you have been footsore and weary. I am sooo glad to see you back with us. I know you will have many interesting comments about our buddies Don Quixote and Sancho.

Deems
June 13, 2006 - 08:44 am
Welcome back, Phyll, and what a funny story! If the cheese part is true and it is very good grated over pasta or over fruit, then manchega must be what I think of as a Strong Cheese, ie. more "flavor" and "smell" than American which is my gold standard.

You can see that my tastes haven't developed since childhood. Bland, bland, bland. I mean I still like things like custard and tapioca. Daughter Susan has cosmopolitan and adventuresome tastes. Maybe she isn't my child after all? No, I can swear I was there when she was born. Maybe she is a changeling?

Anyway, we have a small passel of donkeys in the rear and you can choose whatever one you want. I don't recommend the largest one; he bites. But the others are all sweet tempered if somewhat sleepy.

Hats--I have to agree with what you said about one foolish man ruining three lives. I guess HONOR wouldn't let Lotario just up and carry Camile off and her HONOR wouldn't allow it either. But still. . . .

Friday is Philadelphia Museum day. We have the tickets for 1:00 pm. There are 13 rooms of paintings. I think I mentioned this before, but that is one awful lot of rooms to walk through, at a shuffle. Shuffling is not good for bad backs. Either walk or sit or swim. I'm going to leave a suggestion somewhere for the Museum suggesting that maybe they might break their next LARGE show in half and have a lunch room in the middle, little box lunches in white boxes, with a sandwich (your choice of three kinds), a pickle, chips. Then one could go through seven rooms, have lunch and gain strength for the remaining six.

~Maryal

marni0308
June 13, 2006 - 09:57 am
Maryal: Don't be afraid of Manchego cheese being too strong. It's very mild.

I read an interesting article about Manchego cheese production and the La Mancha area where it is produced. Here's a blurb about the cheese:

"The rind is closed, clean well engraved, of a yellow to a brownish beige color. The interior is firm and compact, closed, with a few small air pockets unevenly spread. The color is ivory to pale yellow. The taste is very characteristic, well developed, but not too strong, buttery and slightly piquant, with an sheep milk aftertaste. The shape is cylindrical, with flat top and bottom surfaces engraved with the tipical "flower" left by the wooden presses. The sides show a zigzag pattern produced by the mat-weed (esparto) of the molds. Today, industrially produced cheeses have the same engraving, predesigned in the new industrial molds.....The aromatic intensity of a Manzanilla wine makes it an excellent foil for this cheese."

A Manzanilla wine??? Hmmmmmmmm. Sounds interesting. Now I may have to try to find that in a store.

Here's a blurb about the history of the La Mancha area in the article:

"Early Roman historians wrote about the live-stock farming in the peninsula, especially in "Acampo Espartario", the name given by Romans to the region of La Mancha. Muslims habited the area from VIII to XI centuries. They called it "Manyá", meaning "land without water". With time the name would transform into "Mangla" or "Mancla", and finally "Mancha" around the XIII century."

For more info plus pictures here's the article which includes a brief history of the area of La Mancha. There's even a Manchego cheese recipe.

http://www.cheesefromspain.com/CFS/1505Manchego_I.htm

Oh, I just noticed the windmills in one of the pictures!

Marni

Joan Pearson
June 13, 2006 - 10:02 am
Oh yes! Phyll has caught up with our mule train at last! Give her a fresh mount - hers is exhausted from toting that new fridge about! It's all Amparo's fault - or was it Pat H who first brought up the Manchego cheese? No, it was probably Marni's fault! (Seriously thank you for more on the cheese, Marni!) Amparo, I've already made a note on my calendar to take you to Whole Foods while you are in town in October - there's one in Arlington not far from the Conference site.

My two little grandnieces (is there such a word? They are my husband's niece's daughters) are off for a play date with my two grandsons, so I have some moments to spend with you before I get the call to pick them up as the situation deteriorates.


*****************************
I see you are still wondering about Anselmo's puzzling behavior testing his wife, using his best friend to do so. Pat H - he does appear a "jealous control freak." But why?

I've been wondering what to make of an article by Nicholas Wey-Gomes included in the back of the Norton Critical Edition (the Raffel translation.) It's highly scholarly - and Freudian - and difficult to read, but there are some parts of it that caught my attention. I will just hit the highlights, so I don't lose you -
The cause of Anselmo's deep desire to test his wife is rooted in his repressed homosexuality. Following his marriage to Camila, his closest friend becomes scarce around the house. The time they do spend together they argue about Lothario's reluctance to visit him anymore.

There's a whole section on Anselmo's "eating disorder" but I can't understand how this fits into the theory that Anselmo was driven by his latent feelings for Lothario. Apparently eating disorders were of great interest to Cervantes - many young virgins at the time suffered from "appetite perversion" causing them to eat clay, which caused an obstruction of the arteries??? The whole purpose was to fill a "hollow emptiness." This was recognized as a "female malady."

It seems that Anselmo likened himself to these young virgins. He's testing Lothario's love with his request that he sacrifice his honor to prove his love for him. And then: "He (Anselmo) wishes to occupy the place of the beloved Camila whom he wishes both exhalted and defiled."
If this makes sense to you, I'd like to know. If a repressed attraction to Lothario is what motivates Anselmo, I'm wondering how (and If) this tale ties in with other stories we are reading. We're told that Don Fernando and Cardenio were great fast friends. When Don Fernando heard the love letters between Cardenio and Luscinda, he had to have Luscinda. (Don Fernando didn't go through with is promise to marry Dorothea because............?)

These women are not strong like Marcela in previous chapters - It seems their only recourse to an undesired marriage was suicide or the convent, doesn't it Hats? Do you think that Cardenio and Luscinda could have been happy had they run away together? Where would they go? How would they live? It didn't pay to be rich and beautiful back then. This is a man's world.

Joan Pearson
June 13, 2006 - 10:24 am
I almost fell over when another maiden was led to the inn, Mippy - we weren't expecting them - they are total strangers - foreigners. They are "dark" and exotically dressed. Are we being led to believe that they are Moors? Does anyone have a note explaining why the MAN is being called "the captive?" The woman seems to be his captive, doesn't she?

marni0308
June 13, 2006 - 10:30 am
I had heard that some pregnant women eat dirt. Here's some info:

"Eating Dirt: A Traditional Practice Which Provides Nutrients to the Body - People around the world eat clay, dirt or other pieces of the lithosphere for a variety of reasons. Commonly, it is a traditional cultural activity which takes place during pregnancy, religious ceremonies, or as a remedy for disease. Most people who eat dirt live in Central Africa and the Southern United States. While it is a cultural practice, it also fills a physiological need for nutrients. In Africa, pregnant and lactating women are able to satisfy the very different nutritional needs of their bodies by eating clay. Often, the clay comes from favored clay pits and it is sold at market in a variety of sizes and with differing content of minerals. After purchase, the clays are stored in a belt-like cloth around the waist and eaten as desired and often without water. The "cravings" in pregnancy for a varied nutritional intake (during pregnancy, the body requires 20% more nutrients and 50% more during lactation) are solved by geophagy.

The clay commonly ingested in Africa contains important nutrients such as: phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, copper, zinc, manganese, and iron.

The tradition of geophagy spread from Africa to the United States with slavery. A 1942 survey in Mississippi showed that... at least 25 percent of the schoolchildren habitually ate earth. Adults, although not systematically surveyed, also consumed earth. A number of reasons were given: earth is good for you; it helps pregnant women; it tastes good; it is sour like a lemon; it tastes better if smoked in the chimney; and so on.*

Unfortunately, many African-Americans who practice geophagy (or quasi-geophagy) are eating unhealthy material such as laundry starch, ashes, chalk and lead-paint chips because of psychological need. These materials have no nutritional benefits and can lead to intestinal problems and disease. The eating of inappropriate objects and material is known as "pica."

There are good sites for nutritional clay in the Southern United States and sometimes family and friends will send "care packages" of good earth to expectant mothers in the North.

Other Americans, such as the indigenous Pomo of Northern California used dirt in their diet - they mixed it with ground acorn; this neutralized the acid."

  • Hunter, John M. "Geophagy in Africa and in the United States: A Culture-Nutrition Hypothesis." Geographical Review April 1973: 170-195. (Page 192)

    http://geography.about.com/cs/culturalgeography/a/geophagy.htm
  • marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 10:31 am
    JoanP: Wasn't "the captive" a galley slave? I'll have to check my book.

    Joan Pearson
    June 13, 2006 - 10:36 am
    Marni, a freed galley slave? An escapee? Funny he's referred to as "the captive" if he's walking around free, no?

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 10:39 am
    Is he free if they're calling him "the captive"?

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 11:06 am
    Oh, I think I found the spot that explains "the captive." Chapter XXXVII. A traveler arrives "who by his garb, seemed to be a Christian slave, lately escaped from Barbary."

    He had been a captive of the Barbary pirates but escaped somehow? I'm assuming now he's a European Christian, but wearing "Moorish" clothes from captivity. "....his mien was genteel, that if he had been properly dressed, they would have taken him for a man of birth and quality." He speaks Arabic to the woman accompanying him. Cervantes continues to call him "the captive."

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 11:13 am
    "The captive" says the beautiful woman accompanying him is "Lela Zoraida" but then she corrects him and says her name is "Maria."

    It seems at this point that these two new people from "Barbary" I guess are a couple. The man ("the captive") seems to treat her tenderly. Maybe they have escaped together from "Barbary" and have fled to Spain and she is converting so she can stay in Spain.

    Another couple?

    Deems
    June 13, 2006 - 02:13 pm
    Grossman to the rescue with a footnote on "the captive."

    Page 326 in Grossman's translation pf Chap. XXXVII:

    "It seems likely that the earlier description of the character as a 'Christian recently arrived from Moorish lands' means that he could only be a former prisoner, although the story of his captivity--another interpolated novel--does not begin until chapter XXXIX."

    Sooooo, we will find out later his story. Also it looks to me like Cervantes might have made another slip, using "captive" to describe this person before we know why. Or maybe all the original readers would have understood.

    I must get some of that CHEESE especially now that I know it is mild. I'm a little worried about the sheep's milk aftertaste, but I shall gird my loins and jump into an adventure.

    I read something not too long ago in connection with eating dirt but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I'm pretty sure that it is considered a disorder of some kind, at least by some people.

    ~Maryal

    Joan Pearson
    June 13, 2006 - 03:24 pm

    Deems
    June 13, 2006 - 04:42 pm
    Leave it to Joan P!

    Dulcinea Watermelons. Who knew?

    Traude S
    June 13, 2006 - 06:21 pm
    HATS, friends, I'm trotting behind at a very slow pace but enjoy all the posts immensely. A few random thoughts:
    Virginia Woolf's "Orlando" totally confused me when I first read it and I never tried it again. (English instruction in our school did not begin until we were 16.)

    Much later I read about Vita Sackville-West and her passionate love affairs with women, among them Violet Trifusi and Virginia Woolf. Vita and her husband Harold Nicholson had same-sex affairs outside of marriage, which was not uncommon in the Bloomsbury circle. Their son, Nigel Nicholson, edited Virginia Woolf's letters and also wrote about his famous parents (I can't remember that book's title now).

    A "Lothario" is understood as a seducer and abuser of women. There is a basis somewhere in English literature, I very dimly recall, a play by Rowe (I think it was), with "Penitent" in the title, dating to the early 17 hundreds. Must try to remember ...
    But that would have been after Cervantes' time, no?

    I've been pondering DEEMS' question about the 'testing' characters impose upon each other - cruelly and needlessly, it would seem. But isn't the Don's entire journey from one quest to the next perhaps a testing ground for his own conceived values? I'm searching my memory for some such connection.

    JOAN P, you are right, most of the the women we've met so far are not truly "remarkable" personalities (unlike the men), except perhaps Dorotea, more because of her intelligence and beauty, and certainly Maritornes, the good-hearted, truly generous scullery maid at the inn. She offers Sancho a glass of wine and pays out of her own pocket to comfort him after he was tossed in the blanket.

    My rereading is slow going because the heavy book is hard to balance in bed and the print of the Grossman translation could be bolder. The footnotes at the bottom of pages are so tiny that I need a magnifying glass. But please don't me count out yet, I'm still with you.

    JOAN P, what could be more delectable than a slice of water melon with Manchego cheese on a hot summer's day? Thank you for the visual treat.

    DEEMS, have a wonderful trip and visit in Philly.

    Traude S
    June 13, 2006 - 06:37 pm
    The play is "The Fair Penitent" (1703) by English dramatist and poet Nicholas Rowe (1674-1716), who became Poet Laureate in 1715. Lothario is the character in it who seduces and betrays the female lead.

    The name became synonymous with a lecherous villain.

    Deems
    June 13, 2006 - 06:54 pm
    Traude--Yes, that's where the association came from, "The Fair Penitent." But, as you point out, that's way too late for Cervantes, so I guess I've been needlessly reacting when I read the name Lotario. It was, after all, just a name until the 18th century.

    I do think that to test anyone's love by purposefully throwing temptation in front of that person is morally wrong. And I don't care how unsettled Anselmo felt because he knew that he should be the happiest man in the world to have such a pure and beautiful wife and such a loyal friend--if only he could be absolutely sure that she could not be seduced. So he take the chance of having the friend seduce the wife? That is not only "recklessly curious" but very STUPID.

    Deems
    June 13, 2006 - 06:57 pm
    Joan P--Would you provide the name of the author of the Freudian article that Raffel includes in his translation? Could be I've read said person before.

    I think it's stretching to see latent homosexuality in Anselmo. Maybe he just secretly wishes that he had not married, that he was still living the happy bachelor wife that he lived before. But that doesn't explain the test he puts his wife to, does it?

    Anyway, when you feel so moved, provide a little more of the article.

    Maryal

    1amparo
    June 13, 2006 - 07:44 pm
    Marni thank you for that very instructive link on manchego cheese. Manzanilla is a sherry wine, from Jerez of course, not as dry as “Tio Pepe”; and just right for… anything really!

    JoanP, I am looking forward to that trip to the store, I might even find there “carne de membrillo”. Now, “carne” translate literally as “meat” but just as “mincemeat” in English is not actual meat but sweet fruits, so is “carne de membrillo” or quince paste/cheese as at least here in Australia is called.

    Because I feel mischievous this morning , I am going to tell you all that “manchego” and “membrillo” go hand in hand: and that is the way Sancho would have spoken about these items: “manchego y membrillo”. I am quite good at making membrillo, it must be solid to be able to slice it like as cheese. Its colour; from antique gold to brown.

    And here is a photo of cheese (white and not manchego ) and membrillo (brown).

    membrillo

    Sorry JoanP; I can’t make the short cut to work. yes, it works!





    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 09:06 pm
    Manzanilla, manchego and membrillo! I'm ready for them!

    Amparo: The membrillo sounds very interesting. I can't quite imagine what it tastes like. I'd love to try it! I can't read the Spanish recipe. Any chance you can give us the recipe in English?

    JoanP: The watermelon looks lovely and would be wonderful with the manchego if only it were sunny and warm. It has been so very rainy and cool here in CT. I'm really tired of it - it's quite depressing. And now our mosquitos have hatched - they're just everywhere. I'm covered with bites. They're lying in wait and jump on me as soon as I open the door to make a mad dash for my car.

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 09:25 pm
    I can't get over all of the people in Don Quixote sighing. Sighing and groaning, weeping and fainting, and dying for love when they're about 20 years old or something.

    I'm getting so totally irritated with the women like Dorotea and Luscinda, especially Dorotea, groveling at the feet of the cad Don Fernando. I never in my wildest dreams had expected her to do that. Begging him to take her as his wife after everything that happened. AAACK!

    Now we have a new couple to deal with. And Maryal says we don't get into their story til a bit later. Well, at least "the captive" was captured by Barbary pirates or something. Now Cervantes knows a lot about that! Five years of being a captive of Barbary pirates, wasn't it? With his experience, it will probably be a good story.

    By the way, I have a recommendation for a terrific story about Barbary pirates - The Sea Hawk by Rafael Sabatini, who writes the most wonderful romantic adventure novels. Don Quixote would just have loved Sabatini's books! Here's a blurb from the web:

    "Description: Sir Oliver Tressilian, a gentleman of wealth and status in 16th-century Cornwall in England, is betrayed by his brother, spurned by the woman he loves, and sold into slavery. Escaping the slavers, he becomes the leader of the Barbary pirates of Algiers. Now is the time for his revenge! A stunning raid on the Cornish coast yields not only his brother, but his ex-fiancee.... A classic of adventure fiction, and a must-read!"

    http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-1931839530-1

    You can even read it online:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=4014

    Marni

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 09:46 pm
    Here's an interesting article about the Barbary pirates from the web:

    "August 23, 2003

    BARBARY PIRATES

    One of the least-known episodes in European history is the age of the Barbary Pirates....From the late Middle Ages down to the early 19th century, pirates from the Barbary Coast - roughly modern Morocco and Algeria - terrorised the Mediterranean Sea, and the Atlantic coasts as far north as the British Isles. The pirates captured numerous Europeans and carried them back to North Africa, where they were sold as slaves. Many of them were sailors and fisherman captured at sea, but the pirates also raided on-shore and took male and female captives.

    Based on historical records, some historians have estimated the cumulative number of captives at over a million. While this might seem implausibly high, over a period of 300 years a million is less than 4,000 a year. Assume that 20 ships made 10 raids a year, and took on average 20 captives per raid, and you get there.

    Of course, the main point of interest for GNXPers is what impact this made on the gene pool in North Africa.

    The wealthier captives were often ransomed by their relatives, and even the poorer ones were sometimes bought by Christian philanthropists and returned to Europe (in Britain funds were set up for this purpose). Of those who stayed behind, the men were mostly worked to death as galley slaves, while the younger boys might be castrated. Either way, no contribution to the gene pool.

    For women and girls, it was a different matter. European women were much in demand for the harems of wealthy Arabs and Turks. It wasn’t always a fate worse than death. One captured English girl became the Queen of Morocco.

    Nor was this the only source of European genes in the Muslim world. In the Levant (modern Israel and Lebanon) the armies of the Crusaders must have left their imprint. So must the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire.

    But probably the main source of European genes, from the early Middle Ages at least down to the 17th Century, was the steady stream of slaves from South Russia, the Ukraine, and the Caucasus. No harem was complete without them. I haven’t seen any numbers, but cumulatively they may have run into millions.

    So it is reasonable to assume that there is a significant European component in the gene pool of North Africa and the Middle East, from sources more recent than the Roman Empire. If ‘European’ traits, such as blue eyes or fair hair, are found in these populations, it shouldn’t be surprising, and there is no need to go back very far in history to find an explanation.

    DAVID BURBRIDGE

    http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000912.html

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 09:46 pm
    By the way, the Barbary pirates even raided England to carry off slaves. The Sabatini novel is supposed to be partly based on a true event.

    "By the early 1630’s, King Charles I had followed his father and the previous Tudor monarch's examples by enlarging the Royal Navy up to 22,000 tons. Charles issued a statement that he would launch two new ships per year, as he saw the navy as essential to protect his people’s trade, safety from pirates, and England’s honour. Every nation's shipping was supposed to lower their flag on the sight of an English ship, though many refused. Indeed Barbary pirates often managed to raid the English coast and carry people off to sell back in North Africa for slaves."

    http://www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/17395/706/3

    "....About the beginning of the 17th Century... came the terrible Turkish, Algerian, or Barbary pirates. These came from a greater distance than the others, and consequently in larger ships, which were fully armed, so that the official records often refer to them as "Turkish men-of-war".

    Although these Barbary pirates (They are often also referred to as "Rovers of Gallee") penetrated far into the English Channel, raiding the coast, or preying on local shipping, their course brought them first to the Lands End and the Lizard, and as they could there prey on ocean- going vessels, they were always especially active there."

    http://www.st-keverne.com/history/Diggens/d9.html

    1amparo
    June 13, 2006 - 09:59 pm
    This is how Internet translates the recipe page:

    Ingredients: · 1 kg of quinces · 1 kg of sugar Water

    How to do it:

    1. Pelar and to divide to the quinces, clearing to them the heart.

    2. To put them to cook, covering them with water, during fifteen minutes.

    3. To separate them and to pass them through pasapurés or the beater, once soft.

    4. To add the sugar, that will be in equal amount to the weight of the quinces.

    5. To return to put to untimed fire and to move from time to time during one hour approximately.

    6. When the paste takeoff of the bottom is ready. To spill it in a mold and to let cool it and materialize.

  • *************************************************************

    This is my translation:

    1 kilo quinces. 1 kilo sugar. Water to cover quinces. (use a deep saucepan as the fruit splatters a lot)

    Method:

    1. Peel, core and dice fruit.

    2. Cover fruit with water and boil for 15 minutes or until soft.

    3. Drain and blend in blender till it resembles fine puree.

    4. weight the puree and put equal amounts of sugar.

    5. put in deep saucepan, when sugar is dissolved, simmer and stir from time to time for one hour, approx.

    6. when the paste comes easily off sides and bottom of pan it is ready. Put in a mould to cool and dry. It should then be solid enough to cut into slices or whichever.



    Very sweet, very delicious very fattening! Enjoy on its own, with manchego cheese, fresh bread…

    Amparo

    PS. I did not know quinces were Aphrodita's fruit. What about that?
  • marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 10:18 pm
    Amparo: Thanks for the recipe!

    I don't think I know what a quince is although I've heard of them. Is it sweet?

    marni0308
    June 13, 2006 - 10:20 pm
    Yikes, it's late. I'm off to bed.

    1amparo
    June 13, 2006 - 11:32 pm
    membrillo quince photo and info

    "The "Fruit of Love": They dined on mince and slices of quince, Which they ate with a runcible spoon; And hand in hand on the edge of the sand They danced by the light of the moon."

    ~ "The Owl and the Pussycat," by Edward Lear

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 01:35 am
    JoanP,How in the world did you find Dulcinea watermelons???I couldn't believe my eyes.

    Amparo, I love "The Owl and the Pussycat" by Edward Lear. I am more familiar with the name of the poem than with the author.

    Traude, I am glad to see you have returned. Thank you for the definition of "Lothario," not a good guy.

    Deems I think you and I are agreeing. I just can't wrap my mind around Anselmo and homosexuality. It doesn't make sense, at least, not to me. Anselmo loved Camila. He was just stupid and terribly insecure and a "control freak." Pat H called him a "control freak." That's a good term for him, I believe.

    Marni,I love all the information on the Barbary Pirates. I have read some of the information, not all of it. That book, I bet, is so good. I like adventure stories. "The Sea Hawk" by Rafael Sabatini and it's online too. I hope my library owns it.

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 01:43 am
    I suppose it's Don Q's madness causing him to brag about men of arms while saying nothing much about men of letters. To me his thoughts are peculiar because he wouldn't have become a man of arms without the time spent reading books of chivalry. Is that strange? I don't know how other translations put it. This is in my translation, Grossman.

    "There can be no doubt that this art and profession exceeds all others invented by men, for the more dangerous something is, the more it should be esteemed. Away with those who say that letters are superior to arms, for I shall tell them, whoever they may be, that they do not know what they are saying."

    I am being to like all these different love triangles. I hope Maria and the captive remain around for awhile. Cervantes might have thought his readers needed a break from Don Q and Sancho's madness. Whatever Cervantes reasoning it's working for me.

    Phyll
    June 14, 2006 - 07:17 am
    Here is another recipe using Manchego Cheese that sounds wonderful:

    Manchego Cheese Timbale

    BTW, I've been calling it Manchega because that is the way it is spelled on the label of the cheese that I bought and I also found that the sheep that produce the milk are spelled that way so...why is it called Manchego, I wonder? Amparo, can you tell me why?

    marni0308
    June 14, 2006 - 07:21 am
    Yum, that sounds good, Phyll.

    I love your quote under your name. Sounds like my house!

    Phyll
    June 14, 2006 - 07:25 am
    That's why I picked it, Marni. Sounds like my house, too.

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 07:25 am
    Marni I just noticed Phyll's quote. I love it! The recipe is yum.

    marni0308
    June 14, 2006 - 07:31 am
    Well, I just love trotting along on my valiant steed with my friends, reading the Don along the way, pausing to chat about the Don's escapades, and stopping now and then to nibble on Manchego cheese recipes and sipping Manzanilla wine. What a life!

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 07:55 am

    Deems
    June 14, 2006 - 09:11 am
    What interesting information on this infamous group. They operated their treachery on the high seas for some time, didn't they?

    I just finished listening to McCullogh's John Adams (loved it, hated to have it end) and there's reference in that book to the Barbary Pirates. The young America had to worry about these terrors of the ocean. I think I remember hearing that one could pay a certain amount in tribute to the Barbary States and thus escape from piracy for a period (a year?). Anyway, after America gained its independence, it was, of course, no longer under the protection of England and the Barbary Pirates were a real worry. America didn't have the money to pay them off.

    All this talk of very fattening items and cheese, not to mention watermelon is most interesting as well as most dangerous.

    Maryal

    Deems
    June 14, 2006 - 09:25 am
    The advantage to also having the book. Here's the pertinent information about the Barbary Pirates from John Adams:

    "To insure their Mediterranean trade against attacks by the 'Barbary pirates,' the nations of Europe customarily made huge cash payments. It was extortion and an accepted part of the cost of commerce in that part of the world. France paid $200,000 a year to Algiers alone; Britain paid even more, as much as $280,000 annually."

    After 1776, America was no longer protected under Britain.

    Those pirates had quite a shelf-life, didn't they? No wonder pirates figure so large in our imaginative literature.

    Maryal

    Joan Pearson
    June 14, 2006 - 10:38 am
    Well, look who's here! Welcome Traudeee! Now we have you, Gum AND Phyll accounted for. Three less to worry about getting lost on the trail!

    Interesting comments about "testing" ones' friends, lovers, and values too,as we see in Don Quixote's own story, Traudee. Maryal, you asked for more on the theory that Anselmo was not so much testing his wife as expressing his repressed feelings for his friend. Hats, I too think "homosexuality." is too strong a word to describe Anselmo's feelings for his friend. Even "bisexuality" though more accurate, is too strong, because such feelings are repressed - or not expressed in this story. Since Maryal asked for more, will look back over it again.

    The article included in the Norton Critical edition on pg. 814 - (the Raffel edition) that I referred to yesterday is titled "Anselmo's Eating Disorder" by Nicolas Wey-Gomez. From the title you can tell that the main issue here is an interpretation of what he describes as Anselmo's eating disorder which he describes as an "appetite perversion" that caused women in Cervantes' time, particularly young virgins, to eat the clay of which certain drinking vessels were made."

    I don't recall Anselmo as having this particular malady in the preceding chapters (do you?), but the author sees it this way. "Anselmo famously diagnoses his own “locura” by metaphorizing it as a female eating disorders desire to eat dirt, plaster, coal, and even other unnamed, if more explicitly vile, “things" - Does this mean that Anselmo assumes a "female" role here, (this is a female malady remember) when his old friend deserts him? That seems to be the premise here.

    I did a GOOGLE search on the subject - there are others who see similar attachment between the two men, though I find nothing on the eating disorder - or so Freudian as Nicolas Wey-Gomez. There is much said about
    the macho bonds between men in the wilderness

    male friendship; a common identity, almost as though the participants were twins; and public acknowledgment of the relationship. (The two amigos)
    competitive situation where the love of a woman causes one friend to betray the other
    of males bonded together through the conduit of a woman's body that they must shame, or test
    two men sharing a woman who somehow intrudes on their original bond.
    My thoughts about all of this - IF there is something to it, if male friendships were in fact more powerful than a man's love for a woman, then, are we seeing this in other relationships in the story - between Cardenio and Don Fernando for example? Grisostomo and his friend when Marcela came between them?

    Marni your comment about "the sighing and groaning, weeping and fainting, and dying for love when they're about 20 years old or something" - are you describing the women in the piece? I'm reminded of Shakespeare's line from AS YOU LIKE IT - "Men have died from time to time...but not for love." Does his contemporary, Cervantes feel the same way? There are more important things for men to die for than love of a woman?

    Now for a woman, preserving her union with a man seems key to her existence. Dorotea will take back the noble Don Fernando because he is her only chance at respectability. Without him, she will go back to the wilderness, ruined, where we found her. Do you think he truly loves her? What persuaded him to take her as his wife? Has her lowborn rank changed? Will his father accept her?

    Joan Pearson
    June 14, 2006 - 10:53 am
    Fascinating information on the Barbary pirates, Marni This explains the distribution of genes! We know next to nothing about the captive except what we learn from translator's footnotes. His face is described as "dark" in Raffel.

    Funny that "the captive" doesn't introduce himself by name, we only catch the woman's name. You think Cervantes made a mistake introducing him to his readers as "the captive," Maryal? What are they calling him at the inn? Doesn't his reluctance to give his name indicate that he is still running from someone, even though Grossman describes him as a "former prisoner"? He sure doesn't sound like a free man to me. Good, we'll hear more from him in the upcoming chapters...beginning tomorrow.(thanks for the note, Maryal)

    Marni, so you think the woman is a Moor? She's converting so she can stay in Spain? What do you think might be a woman's motivation? To be with her man? Stay tuned...

    The Sea Hawk by Rafael Sabatini is set in the 16th century, I see...just the right time period. The Barbary pirates seem to be taking advantage of the unsettled situation between the Moors and Spain on the seas.

    Joan Pearson
    June 14, 2006 - 11:05 am
    Lunch time...your talk of food is making me hungry...and thirsty. Manzanilla wine would be nice too. We have several good Spanish restaurants in DC, Amparo...would love to visit one with you - (Dutch treat of course!

    Hats - I couldn't believe my eyes either. I didn't find the Dulcinea watermelon - it found me. Jumped right off our local Safeway food flyer this past week.

    Joan Pearson
    June 14, 2006 - 01:37 pm
    I found Don Quixote's lecture at dinner in the inn quite curious, too, Hats. He's sitting at the head of the table, the seat of honor. Are the others making sport of him by going along with his madness? Or humoring him? Surely everyone at the table knows that he is delusional.

    I'm wondering whether this is a topic debated in Cervantes' time. You don't seem to buy into the argument that soldiering is more important than learning simply because the soldier risks his life. "Away with those who say that letters are superior to arms." This is the time of the Renaissance when "letters" and learning take precedence over warfare. But it can also be argued that the military is important to keep the peace so letters may be pursued. Gosh, isn't this an age-old argument? Peace not war or peace through war. "The goal of war is peace," lectures our Don. What do you think Cervantes stands on this? Is Cervantes trying to focus our attention on his own time, rather than the olden days of knight errantry when Don Quixote comments that the perils of war are greater now than in ancient times?

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 01:58 pm
    JoanP, I thought this was a pretty important scene. I just didn't know what to make of it especially when the Don quoted the Bible.

    "And so, the first good news that the world and men received was brought by angels on the night......Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, goodwill toward men,'

    'My peace I give unto you; my peace I leave with you;.......

    Maybe I missed something in the beginning of the book. I can't remember thinking of Don Quixote as such a spiritual person. Is this a new part of his character?

    I also can't remember whether we discussed Cervantes views about religion. Did he practice Catholicism zealously or did he just have strong religious values?

    This Don, to me, seems like a totally different character. Of course, maybe that is because of his madness.

    hats
    June 14, 2006 - 02:00 pm
    Then again, a Knight Errant's important quest is for peace, to right unrightable wrongs. Where does Don Q stand as far as the thoughts of scholars and an era of change and enlightenment? I can't put it all together. The Don is confusing me.

    Yes, I do think Cervantes is trying to get us to focus on his own time. This is an age old argument. JoanP, it reaches down to our time today just like you said in your post.

    In my mind the question is "what is more important achieving peace through warfare or achieving peace through talking to one another?" Isn't this the idea the United Nations was built upon, try to remedy our differences through words and not arms? It's hopeful that scholars like sociologists, people in education, psychologists and leaders in politics through all they have studied could bring us to a path of peace without blood.

    In Cervantes day what organization acted like the United Nations? Was it the church?

    1amparo
    June 14, 2006 - 05:54 pm
    “BTW, I've been calling it Manchega because that is the way it is spelled on the label of the cheese that I bought and I also found that the sheep that produce the milk are spelled that way so...why is it called Manchego, I wonder? Amparo, can you tell me why? “

    Simple Phyll:

    1. La leche (milk) = feminine

    2. La oveja (sheep) = femenine

    3. La cabra (goat) = femenine

    4. El queso (cheese) = masculine.

    As you see the products are feminine, but the end product is masculine hence it has to be “queso manchego.” Does it make sense now?

    Cheers,

    Amparo

    Traude S
    June 14, 2006 - 08:19 pm
    It's good to be back, thank you.

    JOAN P. regarding the military, it appears that Cervantes himself sincerely believed that to bear arms and defend one's country, or one's faith as the countried belonging to the Catholic League did, was an obligation, a duty to be heeded without question. Cervantes certainly answered the call.

    The Church participated in the wars through its mercenaries. It also benefited by partaking in the spoils, often in the form of terriorial gains, when a treaty was signed. Successive medieval maps show how the papal lands grew in proportion after each war.

    The characters in DQ who listened to the Don thought (and said so when he was absent) that he was a learned and reasonable man, except when it came to knight errantry with which he was clearly obsessed. Rather than contradict him, they'd humor him.

    But the listeners were not unified in their opinion. In one of the chapters we are discussing, the innkeeper admits that he absolutely believes some of the "taller" deeds recounted in books on chivalry he has read (and kept). But the priest approves of only one of the three works, written in a fine hand, and asks to copy it. The footnotes on the respective page identifies them.

    JOAN P, a few months ago the Boston Globe Sunday magazine carried an article about two couples (one from Massachusetts) who sailed their yachts on the high seas for several months. They had met in a port, hit it off and continued their journey together.

    They had been warned that pirates had attacked private boats off the coast of Somalia, where both yachts were headed, and they kept alert. Whatever doubt they my have had vanished when several small boats appeared on the horizon, encircled the yachts i short order and opened fire. Both yachts suffered crippling damage, the owners shot back, the pirate ships sped off, and the sailors were alive to tell the story. What is the old saying, "the more things change the mre they stay the same" ?

    marni0308
    June 14, 2006 - 10:05 pm
    Traude: You're right! Pirates are alive and with us today!

    To add to Maryal's info about America's involvement with the Barbary pirates.....We went to WAR with them - with Tripoli (Libya today)! The Barbary Wars in the 19th century.

    Here is info about the Barbary Wars. It is totally amazing. It's more exciting than fiction! Then later, one of the American heroes of the war, Steven Decatur, was killed in a DUEL! Cervantes could have used this story in Don Quixote!

    http://www.daddezio.com/italy/barbary/history.html

    I read that a movie was being made about the Barbary Wars, William Eaton, and the battle of Tripoli, starring Russell Crowe as Eaton. Apparently, they've stopped the production because of upheaval in the Middle East/Mediterranean area and other problems.

    ♫ ♪ From the halls of Montezuma
    To the shores of Tripoli
    We will fight our country's battles
    In the air, on land, and sea.♫ ♪

    marni0308
    June 14, 2006 - 10:24 pm
    JoanP: Re men dying for love - "are you describing the women in the piece? I'm reminded of Shakespeare's line from AS YOU LIKE IT - "Men have died from time to time...but not for love." Does his contemporary, Cervantes feel the same way? There are more important things for men to die for than love of a woman?"

    I found men in Dox Quixote were dying of love, also. Who was the guy in the forest who loved the gal trotting around in shepardess clothing - I can't remember any of their names anymore - too many couples for my poor brain.....Anyway, he pined away for love. Then there was Anselmo. He just sort of died after his wife left him and Lothario left and was killed.

    On the other hand, there was Lothario. He died in battle. That surprised me, too. Cervantes just kind of threw it in at the end of the story. Bam. That was the end of Lothario. No romantic ending to that story.

    1amparo
    June 15, 2006 - 12:36 am
    It is a date, mate, and I agree 100% on terms. Looking forward to it.

    Marni, I think I must be misreading your post: "...Steven Decatur, was killed in a DUEL! Cervantes could have used this story in Don Quixote! Cervantes died in 1616, remember?

    I like the little musical notes, cute!

    Amparo

    1amparo
    June 15, 2006 - 03:15 am
    See what happens when one is in a hurry.

    Joan Pearson
    June 15, 2006 - 06:20 am
    Good morning, Amparo -I know you are long past morning, nearing Thursday's end! I am looking forward to October - and hope more of you will take this opportunity to answer the invitation to come to SeniorNet's big Birthday Celebration in Arlington, VA. It's open to all of you, did you know that? Even if you can't come to celebrate in person, we are planning other on-line fun for you too and promise to provide photos from the gathering here in the Washington DC area.
    *****************************************
    Traude - piracy is alive and well today ~ I'll have to remember this the next time I take my yacht out for a spin.

    Marni, I enjoyed the Barbary wars link - "The fact was that as early as the 17th century a system of paying tribute to the marauders was the only means Christian merchants had to ransom themselves form capture and slavery." We'll see this in the next pages when we read of the "captive's experience." Actually it WAS Cervantes' experience. We're in for some excitement during the next few days. It is a miracle to me that anyone survived captivity back then. I guess they treated those who appeared to be worth some ransom money differently.
  • ************************************

  • "Men have died from time to time, but not for love." Marni, I remember the story of Marcela and Grisostomos as Cervantes' twist on the love stories of his day. Marcela was the strong woman who broke men's hearts, no intention of marrying any of them. She was a Golden Age woman, unlike these women of Cervantes' time. So - I don't count her, although I agree that men died for her. Then there's Anselmo - yes, he died too, but did he die because he lost his lady love, or did he die because he lost everything - especially his closest friend.

    Joan Pearson
    June 15, 2006 - 06:25 am
    Don Quixote's speech IS puzzling and out of character at first readingHats, I agree with you. I've read it several times after reading your post. I see two things going on here. He is extolling the virtues of knighthood - convinced that his quest for justice and honor has brought everyone together to the table and that they are toasting him. This is understandable. I don't think Don stands for change in this era of enlightenment. I see him back there in the medieval mindset when warring was the solution to all injustice. Through war, peace.

    I do see Cervantes taking advantage of this dinner table lecture as an opportunity for satire on the holy wars his Church is waging now in an attempt to retain its power. Traude, I sense that the older Cervantes believed in the wars of his youth - there was nothing like the glorious battle of Lepanto, but he seems to be criticizing the justification of the Church continuing to settle disputes with torture and bloodshed. (This is my own feeling, no scholarly works to back me up here.)

    Hats, when the lecturing knight draws the "logical" conclusion and leaps from "I leave you peace, peace be with you" and "peace on earth good will to men" - to "this is peace is the true goal sought by war...granting this truth that the goal of war is peace" - Cervantes has everyone present marvel at the logic in this. I see tongue in cheek here. I could be seeing what is not there, though. Has Cervantes become "enlightened"?

    Shall we move on to hear the "captive's" tale - and maybe learn why he isn't introducing himself by name? Please feel free to comment on any of these previous chapters if you are just catching up. I'm off to the market for watermelon, wine and el queso!

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 06:27 am
    JoanP, Buy enough for all!

    These are JoanP's words below.

    "I don't think Don stands for change in this era of enlightenment. I see him back there in the medieval mindset when warring was the solution to all injustice. Through war, peace. "

    JoanP, this is the conclusion I made too. I could never have put Don Q's speech in such an understandable and orderly way. I applaud you!

    I am having trouble with chapter forty too. Maybe the cheese and wine will help me digest the chapter.

    Joan Pearson
    June 15, 2006 - 06:34 am
    We can have a picnic in the courtyard at the inn, Hats - and talk over Chapter 40. But I really want to sit next to the veiled mystery woman and find out if she's for real!

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 06:36 am
    Me too!

    Deems
    June 15, 2006 - 07:11 am
    Cervantes prepares us for Don Q's long speech about the superiority of the soldier to the scholar by reminding us of the speech he gave before for the goatherds on the Golden Age.

    This speech seems somewhat similar to me because Quixote yearns for the day when the strength of one's arm and the sword provided victory in battle. It's modern warfare with artillery which can strike randomly and terrorize that he criticizes. There's a nostaligia for days gone by here just as there was when he bemoaned the fact that he did not live in the "golden age."

    I think he must be remembering his participation in the Battle of Lepanto when he writes of bandages "to heal a bullet wound, perhaps one that has passed through his temples or will leave him with a ruined arm or leg." Remember the permanent damage to his hand that he suffered at Lepanto.

    And then there's his seeming awareness that he is a knight errant in a modern age with modern implements of destruction (artillery) which are fearsome indeed, "for although no danger can cause me to fear, it still fills me with misgivings to think that powder and tin may deprive me of the opportunity to become famous and renowned throughout the known world for the valor of my arm and the sharp edge of my sword."

    The difference I see between the two speech occasions is that the goatherds have no idea what Don Quixote is talking about whereas the audience in the recent situation marvel at his ability to reason and the strangeness of his malady which seems to affect him only when he is performing acts of chivalry.

    It is a very strange form of madness, indeed.

    ~Maryal

    Mippy
    June 15, 2006 - 08:44 am
    Maryal ~ Thanks for getting me back on the trail, as I was becoming rather lost in DQ's long speech
    As you said: the goatherds have no idea what DQ is talking about and that was put in for the comic effect, I thought, so I didn't worry about understanding it either.
    But when you point out the audience in the recent situation marvel at his ability to reason , I must ask:
    Do they truly marvel or are they pretending to marvel?
    Is it a spoof? Why do they switch gears and become so admiring?
    The dust on the trail might be obscuring my comprehension.

    Deems
    June 15, 2006 - 09:43 am
    Mippy--I think they genuinely admire Quixote while they are eating dinner and he says all this about war.

    Close to the end of chap. XXXVIII, Cervantes writes, "Those who listened to him were overwhelmed again with pity at seeing that a man who apparently was intellingent and rational in all other matters could lose those faculties completely when it was a question of his accursed and bedeviled chivalry. The priest said that he was correct in everything he had said in favor of arms, and he, though lettered and a graduate of the university, was of the same opinion."

    I don't see any reason to believe that his listeners are pretending. Rather, they are amazed that Quixote can make so much sense and still be mad when it comes to chivalry. Notice that the topic here is not chivalry, but whether it is better to be a soldier or a scholar.

    Maryal

    marni0308
    June 15, 2006 - 11:09 am
    I think the Don's speech is also a lead-in to the "captive's" story where his father requests his 3 sons to choose from careers of the court (where scholarly pursuits would be required), the army (where a soldier's skills would be required), or trade.

    JoanP: Re "Anselmo - yes, he died too, but did he die because he lost his lady love, or did he die because he lost everything - especially his closest friend."

    I think that whether Anselmo died for loss of his wife's love or for loss of his closest friend's love, he still died for love.

    Amparo: You didn't misread me. I understand that the American Barbary Wars and Decatur's duel were much later than Cervantes lived. I just meant Cervantes would have been interested in those stories because they were exactly the kind of thing Cervantes was writing about.

    It seems like time passes and things change, but they really haven't changed very much in many ways. Technology brings changes to civilization, but people's natures are what they are.

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 11:21 am
    I think Anselmo couldn't live with his conscience. Too late, he probably faced the fact that he had been very foolish.

    marni0308
    June 15, 2006 - 11:31 am
    Hats: You're right. Saying he died for love is too simple.

    Actually, all of the characters pining away and dying seem implausible. It doesn't seem one can just die for love at all. There have to be other factors in real life. Dying for love seems to be something that happens in romantic fiction.

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 11:46 am
    Marni, That is what I think too.

    judywolfs
    June 15, 2006 - 12:04 pm
    Every time somebody in this book mentions love, it seems more akin to lust based on pining after a woman's physical beauty or greed based upon desiring a man's wealth and social standing. Oh - and it's usually unrequited and despairing at that. And no wonder. I don't think any of these characters would recognize the meaning of the word that I know as "love" and I certainly don't recognize what they mean. I'm pretty sure I'd head for the hills as fast as I could if one of the characters in Don Quixote decided to "love" me! ~JudyS

    Deems
    June 15, 2006 - 12:14 pm
    marni--I agree, the speech is a lead-in to the captive's tale which follows. Cervantes is amazingly good at making all these disparate pieces fit together. No wonder this novel has been so much praised.

    Reading it is like watching him invent the novel. In the beginning, we have a simple story of a middle-aged man who reads too much and decides to become what he has read about. He acquires a squire; they have a run-in with windmills, sheep, and a barber.

    Then the plot begins to branch out. And now we are in the thick of it, still at the inn, but those four characters to whom we have been introduced, Cardenio, Don Fernando (the formerly loathsome), Luscinda, and Dorotea as well as the innkeeper, his wife and daughter, Maritornes are all listening to the captive, formerly a galley-slave, tell the story of battles between the Moors and various European groups.

    Amazing how many balls there are in the air, and all at once.

    There's a good deal of comedy, but serious stories as well.

    ~Maryal

    Deems
    June 15, 2006 - 12:26 pm
    Judy--You bring up a good point about "love" as so many of the characters seem to be using the word.

    I wonder if their understanding of love isn't based, as you suggest, very much on physical appearance, but is also a reality of the times in which Cervantes lived. He is writing mostly about upper class or well- to-do middle class people, and there were strict rules about a young woman and a young man getting to know each other in any of the ways we have come to know. Young girls were isolated and protected (like Luscinda) and kept away from being alone with young men.

    There just wasn't much opportunity for young people to get to know each other except by the outside appearance and reputation. "He comes from a good family." "She is very polite and good with her needle." "He is very handsome."

    I don't know I'd say that it was only lust, but rather an outgrowth of the courtly love tradition of a young man falling in love with a lady--from a distance--often one he could not hope to ever know intimately. To a large degree, these "romances" took place chiefly inside people's heads.

    Weren't marriages usually arranged at this time? Our modern ideas about people choosing their own mates are relatively new.

    Maryal

    Traude S
    June 15, 2006 - 12:43 pm
    So much more to catch up to -- and so little time (a WREX deadline).

    JOAN P, yes, in this country we know more of the SS Andrea Doria and her collision in 1956 (I think it was) with the SS Stockholm in the waters off Cape Cod than we do about whence the name originated.

    But Andrea Doria, scion of a distingished Genoese family, who became Admiral of the Genoese Fleet, is known to every school child in Italy (and beyond), although In his time Genoa was a republic (just like Venice), and the unification of all the Italian city-states, regions and the island of Sicily was centuries away.

    The Medicis ruled Florence (located in Tuscany = Toscana in Italian), while Pisa e.g., also located, mind you, in the region of Tuscany, had a different government and hence was a sworn enemy of Florence. (Think of Dante's exile from Florence.) Italian history has its own complexties but some of it touched the rest of Europe, where the date of the battle of Lepanto is known.

    As for the role the Catholic Church has played in secular affairs: it can hardly be overstated. That role was not defined until the Lateran Treaties were negotiated between the (by then) Kingdom of Italy and the Papacy in 1929.

    As for empathizing with the interior or exterior lives of Cervantes' characters (an astonishing number of about four hundred)), let us remember that Cervantes wrote for his age and of what he knew about people in his own time. I don't think we are expected to identify with the characters he wrote about, their emotions and reactions. Nor are we asked to apply any of Cervantes'/DQ's lessons to our own lives five centuries removed from him. We may have to try and absorb what is being offered and decide later what lessons there are, if any.

    Joan Pearson
    June 15, 2006 - 01:06 pm
    Just passing through, but this is ADDICTIVE!

    Thanks, Traudee for the information on Andrea Doria. The name jumped out at me and I'd like to know if they are one and the same. Will give it more time later.

    So far, the greatest "lesson" is
    In seeking the Impossible, one is denied that which is possible. - "He who hunts the impossible may in perfect justice find himself denied that which is possible."
    If no other lesson is learned here, that one is enough for me!

    I agree, those listening to Don Quixote's lecture on arms agree with him - war=peace. The big question - does Cervantes?

    Yes, Marni, he does seem to be setting the stage for the "captive's story." Poor captive has chosen the noblest profession - bearing arms. You just know that he will come out with the short stick at the end for doing so. I shouldn't say this - it trivializes the situation, but all I could think of when the father sent the three boys out into the world - was the story of the three little pigs. And the captive is the one with the sack of straw.

    Traudee, I gave up on the officers and locations - so many strange names and places! No, we can't be expected to remember them all. Amparo, is every school child in Spain familiar with these names and battles?

    Traude S
    June 15, 2006 - 01:12 pm
    JOAN P, yes, the ship was deliberately named for the Italian naval hero. HE is the source.
    Trust me!

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 01:26 pm
    Zoraida is a very courageous woman. Her father is rich enough and loves her enough to fulfill all of her desires. I think Zoraida's ultimate goal is to practice her Christian religion freely. This is why she goes to such measures to escape.

    What were the repercussions for a Moor choosing to become Christian? Torture and imprisonment although the person is his daughter?

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 01:42 pm
    Who is "the renegade?" Is this the allusion to Cerevantes?

    "The only one who held his own with him was a Spanish soldier named something de Saavedra, who did things that will be remembered by those people for many years, and all to gain his liberty...."

    Then the footnote#5 "The allusion is to Cervantes himself; his complete surname was Cervantes Saavedra."

    hats
    June 15, 2006 - 01:52 pm
    Remember when we heard so much about cults and the use of brainwashing to get a family member back with his own family? Changing from one religion to another is always difficult. It can definitely upset family ties. It is as if religion is inherited just like the bloodline of a family. I am thinking about what Zoraida is going through to change from a Moor to a Christian. It is like she is betraying her father. It is as if she can not continue to love him while choosing a new religion.

    1amparo
    June 15, 2006 - 06:36 pm
    Goodness me you all have been busy! Aaaaahhh, I feel the beauty of this person, Don Quixote, is getting to you.

    JoanP, to answer some of your questions: yes, kids at school do learn about Cervantes. In my time, before TV, his works were made into serials broadcast on radio when we children came out of school. Ditto for naval battles, especially the ones won!, with names of ships and their commanders. Anyone who reads Cervantes biography would see how much of Cervantes’s life is on his stories.

    Yes, there once was, in history, a real Zoraida who converted to Christianity for love.

    And I hope you trip to get manchego was more fruitful than mine; I went to our David Jones Store (before Harrods of London was sold to the present owner, Harrods and David Jones were associated, hence David Jones still has a reputation to keep). Well, they did not have “manchego from Spain”. They do keep “Manchego de España” made here in Tasmania. Of course it does not have the seal of guarantee or its distinctive rind, nor is the taste like the real macoy, for they gave me a sliver to try… and I did not buy any.

    Thanks Marni, “I understand that the American Barbary Wars and Decatur's duel were much later than Cervantes lived. I just meant Cervantes would have been interested in those stories because they were exactly the kind of thing Cervantes was writing about.”

    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 15, 2006 - 08:04 pm
    Hats: According to a footnote in my edition, a renegade is "one who leaves any religion, although its negative context was usually reserved for Christians who converted to Islam or Judaism."

    There seem to be 2 renegades mentioned: (1) the "Scabby Renegade" Uchali Fartax who had leprosy - he had been "the captive's" master til he was captured and enslaved (2) the renegade who was the go-between for "the captive" with Zoraida.

    This 2nd "renegade" was apparently another captive of the Barbary pirates or corsairs, a native of Murcia (a region of Spain) who spoke and wrote Arabic and Spanish, translated and wrote letters for "the captive," and arranged for their escape boat and oarsmen. It sounds to me as though "the renegade" was a Christian Spaniard had been captured and had converted to Islam, perhaps to make his life easier. The "renegade" intended to return to Christendom, per "the captive," and he desired to escape. He pledged to keep "the captive's" secrets and had certificates attesting that he was honest and obliging to Christians. Per "the captive," if the Moors found out what the renegade was doing for the Christians slaves, he would be burned alive.

    -----------------------------

    I just learned last year (reading The Sea Hawk) about Andrea Doria and that the ship was named after him. I had thought that Andrea Doria was a woman!

    Deems
    June 15, 2006 - 08:34 pm
    A fond temporary farewell, folks. I'll be in Philadelphia tomorrow for Wyeth. Thirteen rooms of him. Please think good thoughts for my endurance.

    I read "Andrea Doria," thought of the ship that went down, realized it must have been named for someone, but had no idea it was a famous Spaniard Male.

    Back, I hope Saturday. If not, send the search parties out to Philadelphia.

    Maryal

    Traude S
    June 15, 2006 - 08:46 pm
    Yes, MARNI, Andrea (which equals Andrew in English) is a man's name in Italy. Andrea Doria was Italian, DEEMS, born in Genoa (Genova in Italian).

    Regarding the Moors and their history: it should be understood that, after the death of Mohammed in Medina in 632, and under the reign of the Caliphs, the Islamic religion expanded (i.e. was forcibly carried ) into Syria, Palestine, Persia, Egypt, North Africa, and from there into Spain and even Southern Italy. Eventually, through commerce, into China and South Asia.

    In Spain they were known as "Moors", and those invading from Africa were dark-skinned.

    DEEMS, have much pleasure, and I hope the weather will be good!

    1amparo
    June 15, 2006 - 09:37 pm
    Enjoy your trip and the exhibition (??)

    Moors, Islamic v Crusaders: Will one day Islam conquer the world?. The fight today is as fierce as one thousand years ago.

    hats
    June 16, 2006 - 04:38 am
    Maryal Have a great time!! Enjoy! Thirteen rooms??? That's incredibly.

    Marni, I worried about the "renegade." You have gave a lot of good information. Thank you.

    Amparo, I would love to read a Cervante biography. Zoraida was a real person. That's just so interesting.

    Traude, Thank you for more information about the Moors. I thought Moors were dark skinned. I was not sure or had forgotten.

    hats
    June 16, 2006 - 04:45 am
    Traude, Thank you for the information about Andrea Doria. I thought of a feminine name also.

    I am confused about the footnote in the Grossman translation. It's footnote# five.

    "The allusion is to Cervantes himself; his complete surname was Cervantes Saavedra."

    Then, in chapter XL, Cervantes writes,

    "The only one who held his own with him was a Spanish soldier named something de Saavedra, who did things that will be remembered by those people for many years, and all to gain his liberty,...."

    So this person likened to Cervantes is one of the captives, right? Which one? That's my question.

    Mippy
    June 16, 2006 - 05:29 am
    Hats ~ you quoted: a Spanish soldier named something de Saavedra
    I thought that was just Cervantes putting himself into the novel, in a sneaky way ... to see if the reader is catching the clue.
    ... like Alfred Hitchcock in his movies ...

    hats
    June 16, 2006 - 05:33 am
    Mippy,that's exactly what I thought too. Then, I thought my ideas might have become all mixed up. Thanks for answering my question.

    Phyll
    June 16, 2006 - 08:08 am
    Thanks for helping me out with the Manchega(o) confusion. I understand that the "o" reflects the masculine of cheese (queso) so that is why it is Manchego. I took Spanish in college but have retained so little of it, I'm embarrassed to admit.

    Once again I have fallen behind but not because of dust this time but because of WATER! Huge amounts of water! We had 7 1/2 inches of rain fall here in central North Carolina from the storm Alberto. Flooding everywhere but not my house, thank goodness. A lot of clean-up to be done and some roads and one of our largest malls are still closed because of flooding. We were hit harder than Florida, Georgia and So. Carolina were. But to look on the bright side...the sun is shining beautifully today and our drought was wiped out--all in one day. Now we have a rain surplus for the year! Amazing!

    I was still reading about Anselmo and Lotario....Anselmo is an idiot and deserved what he got in the end but I don't have a whole lot more respect for Lotario, either. Or for that matter, Camilla. In fact, I'm getting more than a little disgusted with the role that women are assigned throughout this book. Was it really true to life at that time, do you think, that they were all such spineless wimps or was that just Cervantes' biased way of looking at them?

    Joan Pearson
    June 16, 2006 - 08:44 am
    Good morning, glories! You are certainly full of it this morning - of good information and observations, that is!

    Phyll, sorry about the heavy rain. North Carolina is it? Must be difficult to do anything! Plenty of time to read, though. Don't despair about catching up. You are just two steps away from the captive's story.

    I can sense you are squirming at the depiction of women in these stories - most of the them ARE are "spineless" - But I don't think Cervantes' regards them...with contempt. The very fact that he can portray a Marcela - or even the serving girls like Maritornes as having minds of their own and the many ways that he shows their resourcefulness indicates that he hold them in higher regard. It is the position of the "highborn" that he seems to be holding up for our examination. I think he meant for his readers to feel the same as you do.

    Keep turning those pages - you are about to meet a very brave and daring women in the captive's tale - another beauty - filthy rich and a Moor! Maybe only Christian girls are wimps?

    Judy - Judy, yes..."every time somebody in this book mentions love, it seems more akin to lust based on pining after a woman's physical beauty or greed based upon desiring a man's wealth and social standing." Have we seen LOVE as we understand it today? How about Cardenio and Luscinda? They knew one another from childhood...before she grew to be such a beauty. Doesn't it seem that ALL the rich maidens are also beautiful? Were there any rich girls whose beauty were not worth mentioning?

    I see these episodes as good stories to tell around the hearth. Why tell such stories about an ugly girls. Cervantes hasn't written the "novel" yet. I am looking forward to Volume II to see if/how he has changed his approach.

    marni0308
    June 16, 2006 - 10:22 am
    Most of the main female characters are beautiful. As each one is added, they get more and more beautiful it seems. How can Cervantes top the most recently added Zoraida?

    The only main female characters who aren't depicted as beautiful seem to be Maritones and our hero's lady, the loud Dulcimea. And I think the two of them are meant to be in the book to add humor.

    Joan Pearson
    June 16, 2006 - 10:36 am
    We still don't have the captive's name, do we? He's travelling incognito, no name, in costume, which is understandable as he has been enslaved for so many years. Is he hiding, being followed? How old do you estimate he is at this point? My memory tells me that he has been away from home for 22 years - is that right? In his forties maybe?

    I was sure from his telling of his captivity that Cervantes had worked himself into the Quixote story in the captive's character. Until he described the Spanish soldier named "de Saavedra" - Mippy - do you really believe that Cervantes was having fun à la Hitchcock? Is that the reason put himself in the story? I got the feeling that he wanted his readers to know that he had firsthand information - that he wasn't making up the tale he was telling of the hardships the captain had endured. I probably wouldn't have picked up on the name but for the fact that Marni asked its meaning a few days ago.

    Hats the soldier "de Saavedra" is described as the ONLY soldier who escaped the mean-tempered, viscious renegade who rose to become the King of Algiers. No explanation given as to why he liked Cervantes. Cervantes seems to be saying "thank you" to him in this story, I thought. Maybe we'll hear more of an explanation in a future episode.

    marni0308
    June 16, 2006 - 10:43 am
    I thought it was a bit strange reading about Zoraida and her father. It seemed odd and hard to believe that Zoraida's servant could have converted her to Christianity. The servant must have had quite an influence on Zoraida.

    I didn't see mention of Zoraida's mother. Maybe she was dead. I am not quite figuring Zoraida out. Why did she want to leave her father, her country, her religion, her country for a stranger, a new religion, a foreign land, and a new religion? She placed her life in the hands of an unknown foreign stranger, a European Christian slave. For some reason, she trusted "the captive" whom she viewed from her window and did not know at all. He, of course, fell in love with her at first sight. I don't know what it was about "the captive" that attracted Zoraida to him above all other slaves. Maybe he was handsome.

    Zoraida lied to her father and stole his money. She meant to leave him. At the same time, it seems she cared for him. She did not want him to be taken prisoner and did not want him hurt. Her father did not seem to be cruel. He seemed to treat his daughter tenderly. She was not a prisoner in the house.

    I think Cervantes was a fervent Christian. He had fought on the Christian side against the Muslims in war. He had been their prisoner and slave for years. The Moors had conquered his country and been masters of Spain for years before they had been kicked out. That would affect any Spaniard. Cervantes seems to be repeatedly saying how much better Christians were than Muslims.

    It's a bit strange to read this today when we're trying to be open-minded about different cultures and religions. But here we are centuries later still fighting the same fight, Christianity vs Islam, western culture against middle eastern.

    Joan Pearson
    June 16, 2006 - 10:56 am
    Lots of good information about the Moors...remember Marni's research about the redistribution of DNA because of those Barbary pirates? Those white hands indicate that Zoraida is not dark-skinned, but a Moor.

    Marni, according to that definition...could we say that Zoraida is a renegade? does it work both ways? Are the Moors who have been expelled from Spain who convert to Christianity, "renegades"?

    I really don't know what to think of Zoraida, Marni? Because a slave girl taught her to pray to Mary, she wants to leave her estate and go off with a complete stranger to Spain? And do what? Marry him and live happily ever after?

    I think that the text glosses over the fact that Zoraida has SEEN the Virgin Mary...that it was the Virgin Mary would told her to get herself to Spain where she would be free to openly practice her religion. Were such apparitions well known. I'm thinking of Joan of Arc - the Inquisition put her to death because of her apparitions...

    That's the only explanation that makes sense. In reading the two sonnets that made the captives "happy rather than sad" I find the same deep-based faith as Zoraida's.

    marni0308
    June 16, 2006 - 11:01 am
    I wonder how many truly converted out of true religious belief vs those who basically were forced to convert in order to live without harrassment?

    marni0308
    June 16, 2006 - 11:02 am
    I read somewhere that Joan of Arc may have been a schizophrenic.

    Joan Pearson
    June 16, 2006 - 11:04 am
    I haven't heard that one, Marni...and I have read a lot on Joan, for obvious reasons (my namesake). We did Bernard Shaw's "St. Joan" not so long ago - there were thoughts that she was possessed, a witch, a liar, had an overly active imagination...but not anything as severe as schizophrenia.

    I have to admit to glossing over all the battles, the names and places.. but knew that those of Cervantes' generation would be familiar with all of them. Now, thanks to you, Amparo, we know that the battles, names of ships, commanders are widely known in Spain too. A name like Captain Giovanni Andrea Doria would have been quite familiar to them when his ship went down.

    "Yes, there once was, in history, a real Zoraida who converted to Christianity for love." Imagine that? Before or after Cervantes? Our Zoraida seems to have placed love way down the list in her motive for marrying "the captive."

    Joan Pearson
    June 17, 2006 - 07:01 am
    Good morning, Dreamers!

    Our Eloise wrote yesterday - that she finds herself in a situation where she must prepare for the upcoming gathering in Montreal and finds it "impossible" to continue on our trail. I responded that we will miss her of course, but will keep her with us in spirit - that sometimes we must recognize that in seeking the impossible, one is denied that which is possible.

    Woke up thinking about Zoraida, Joan of Arc and apparitions. Reread Zoraida's explanation of her desire to come to Spain and connected a few dots.
    "When I was a child my father had a slave who taught me to pray the Christian prayer in my own language, and told me many things about Lela Marien. The Christian died, and I know that she did not go to the fire, but to Allah, because since then I have seen her twice, and she told me to go to the land of the Christians to see Lela Marien, who had great love for me."
    So, the Virgin Mary did not appear to Zoraida, the slave did. Zoraida was so certain of this, that she gave up everything, her father, his wealth, her homeland.

    Marni, you made me ponder the mental state of those who experience such apparitions.

    I began to think of the devotion to the Virgin Mary at this time...there is a documented history of those who swear that Mary appeared to them throughout the ages, telling them to pray the rosary. (Our Lady of Guadalupe Mexico Juan Diego 1531) Praying the rosary=peace.

    We've already talked about Cervantes' references to the Rosary - and now know that the Church attributed the winning of the Battle of Lepanto over the Muslims - to the Rosary.

    Connecting her desire to get to Christian Spain, her devotion to Mary with Mary's "intercession" in the battle of Lepanto seems to make Zoraida's sacrifice more understandable to me.

    Belief in God, the Church and the afterlife strong motivating factors for sacrifice at this time. The two sonnets - (epitaphs, yes, but sad, no) - seem to be saying the same thing. The sacrifice of the dead soldiers was not in vain.

    So, no, I don't think those of strong faith who expressed strong belief that spirits are with them were mentally ill. I think we need to consider them in the context of the age in which they lived.

    I sense that Cervantes' was a man of his time, and his faith was strong - though he used irony when he spoke of the rosary in terms of winning the battle.

    Look forward to Maryal's return with news of her adventure in PA. Hope you all have a most enjoyable weekend. Is anyone here following the World Cup matches?

    hats
    June 17, 2006 - 11:03 am
    For some reason, Zoraida's story, the renegade, the captive and all the rescued Christians and the mention of Lela Marien, the Virgin Mary, seem very real to me. Perhaps it is because of the reasons you, JoanP, mentioned in your above post.

    "Belief in God, the Church and the afterlife strong motivating factors for sacrifice at this time."

    The mention of the Rosary again made me reread this below scene where Zoraida symbolizes the file and chain.

    "I want you to know that she is a Christian and has been the file for our chains and the key to our prison....."

    I think the renegade is speaking. Anyway, since Zoraida helped with gold and gave other support, the renegade calls Zoraida "the file and chain."

    What does Zoraida's name mean in Spanish?

    Thank you for the link. After reading about the escape of Christians, I am very anxious to read about the Virgin Mary.

    hats
    June 17, 2006 - 11:15 am
    "The two sonnets - (epitaphs, yes, but sad, no) - seem to be saying the same thing. The sacrifice of the dead soldiers was not in vain."

    I find the two sonnets very moving too. I see the sonnets as a way of recognizing and remembering those who believed deeply in their faith.JoanP writes,

    " Cervantes' was a man of his time, and his faith was strong.."

    Mippy
    June 17, 2006 - 02:20 pm
    JoanP ~ Your suggestions about the faith and belief of Zoraida, and the connection to visions of the Virgin Mary by others was helpful; even after re-reading, I unsure what she was experiencing, or what the reader ought to follow. Thanks! Chapters like these would stop me in my tracks, without the support of you and the group to stay on the trail.

    Hats ~ your comment suggested searching the name:
    Zoraida means enchanting woman in Arabic.
    Here's a link: Zoraida

    hats
    June 18, 2006 - 02:32 am
    Wow Mippy, that is soooo great! Thank you. I knew her name had to have a special meaning.

    1amparo
    June 18, 2006 - 05:06 am
    Moorish Epoch and Reconquista.

    Gothic dominance lasted until 711, when Muslim armies crossed the Straight of Gibraltar and defeated Roderic, the last Visigoth king. Specially the southern parts of Spain, called al-Andalus, were prospering in the Moorish epoch, thanks to new sciences and agricultural technics. The Moors conquered major parts of the country until they were defeated for the first time by Visigoth king Pelayo at Covadonga in northern Spain, 722. Though the small Christian kingdoms in the north were a nucleus of resistence, the Arabian culture was prospering in the rest of the country. The Muslim Spain by the time got politically independent of the Arabian empire, and in 10th century Abderraman III. made Al-Andalus his own caliphate. In this epoch Cordoba was the indisputable cultural center of this area of the world. Decadence started in 11th century, when the various Arabian noble families were more and more at variance among themselves, and al-Andalus broke into numerous small caliphates. The Christian kingdoms in the north started then the reconquest of Spain. The marriage between Isabel of Castilia and Ferdinand of Aragon in 1469, uniting the two most important among them, was the turning point of the Reconquista. From now on Muslims rapidly lost territory, until they were definitely expelled when they lost their last remaining caliphate, Granada, in 1492."


    During the times the Moors were in Spain female names of Zoraida, Zulema, Zaida etc., were common within the Arabs (Moors) population in Spain.

    Amparo

    Joan Pearson
    June 18, 2006 - 10:00 am
    This is the inn that our Don keeps referring to as an "enchanted" castle. It is small wonder that the beautiful, (aren't they all?) veiled woman is named "the enchanted," Hats? I know a Zulma. Amparo! It's a name I never heard before - she is Spanish too! Actually, I haven't seen her in a number of years so I can't ask her where she came from.

    Do you get the feeling that Cervantes is becoming more and more autobiographical as his story goes on? I wonder whether this will continue, or if it is just in this episode when he records the Battle of Lepanto and describes the Barbary pirates who enslaved him for so many years. He's even inserted his own name into the story.

    Thank you so much for filling us in on the Moors in Spain, Amparo! I was aware that the Crusades were fought with the Turks...but did Spain ever do battle with the Moors who were also Muslims during the Crusades? The Moors seem to hate the Turks in the captive's report.

    "Al-Andalus" - this is the La Mancha region? Are there Moors living in this area today? This is where you were born and grew up?

    Why do you suppose Zoraida keeps warning the captive not to believe the Moors...that they are all liars? It was enough to make me not trust her either. Does "the captive" believe that she will marry him once he gets them settled in Spain?

    So what's next for Don Quixote? Surely the story will pick up again once the stay at this "enchanted castle" is concluded? Will Dorotea continue as the Princess Micomicon? Is it necessary to avenge her honor with the giant, now that the giant is dead? I am looking forward to our old Don taking center stage once more.

    Hope you are having a fine Father's Day - have been thinking of mine all morning...what a man! My greatest fan and audience. there was nothing I did that didn't bring forth applause. When he left the theater, the lights in my life dimmed.

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 10:02 am
    Actually, it's now afternoon, but I have been thinking and catching up and I did the actual writing of my post in the morning, so. . . .

    The Wyeth Show was wonderful and I did better than I had thought I would. The Philadelphia Museum hasn't quite figured out how to set up an exhibit to handle traffic flow yet, but this show was better than the last one I saw, with smaller rooms, better transitions, and a pretty good device for listening to commentary on some of the paintings which came with the admission to the show. It hung around the neck, had even sound, comfortable headphones and numbers posted by the paintings that were commented on that you had to punch into it. I've experienced quite a few of these audio companions and this was the best yet.

    OK, back to Don Quixote.

    I went back and reread chap. XL to see if I could find a slightly more coherent story and noticed something I hadn’t before. These “renegades” come from both sides—Christians become Muslim and Muslims become Christian. It’s almost as if one’s religion was used as a political bargaining chip.

    For example, the captive’s original master, Ulchali Fartax, becomes a “renegade,” in his case leaving Islam, because of his fury at being beaten by a Turk (back when he was a galley slave). The word I would use is apostate. (According to the OED an apostate is “One who abjures or forsakes his religious faith, or abandons his moral allegiance.”)

    So, we have some Muslims abandoning their faith because of perceived cruelty and some Christians abandoning their faith because of cruel treatment. People from both faiths are giving up their original faith.

    The other piece of information I glean from the ability of those who were once galley slaves (Ulchali) to rise to power is that this Turkish navy seems to be a place where social mobility was the norm. If it is possible to rise from being a slave to the commander of a fleet of ships and the owner of 3000 galley slaves, then this system of slavery is different from any I have thought about.

    All of this prepares us for the story of Zoraida. It prepares a context where people are changing their religions for one reason or another. In the case of Zoraida, the reason seems to be faith.

    When the reed is first lowered from the window with the handkerchief and coins and the captive is the only one allowed to take it, and when the captive and the others notice the white arm of the woman, they first assume that she is a “renegade” wife of a Moor. So, by this point I decided to look up “renegade” and determine why Grossman had chosen it.

    The OED told me, as the first definition that a renegade was “An apostate from any form of religious faith, esp. a Christian who becomes a Muslim.” An AHA! moment followed. This word, renegade, was chosen because it was more specific than Apostate, referring especially to a Christian who becomes a Muslim.

    I guess that these women who were taken captive and, I suppose, forced to become Muslims in order to marry their Muslim husbands, were renegades even though they probably had little choice in the matter. If you were beautiful and captured, you could accept your fate, change your religion and marry the capturer.

    More later. This is getting long.

    Maryal

    hats
    June 18, 2006 - 10:08 am
    Maryal, I am glad you are back. I also feel happy that you had a good experience.

    Amparo,thank you for more information.

    marni0308
    June 18, 2006 - 11:42 am
    Welcome back, Maryal! Glad you enjoyed your tour. Any favorites of the Wyeth paintings?

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 11:48 am
    Hats, thank you. Marni--There were several that I loved and many I admired. One of the Helga paintings was "Braids" and it was lovely. There was also one with his dog, Nell Gwyn, asleep with her head on a sack and a window above her that I would like to have in my livingroom. HA! And the one of Christina and Alvin's house (which looks like so many old houses in Maine that I've been to). And another of a deserted school house with candles flaming in the candleabra, and yet another of a huge boulder and an evergreen. And the lovely one of his wife, Betsy, in the old fashioned hat with the neckties hanging down loose and framing her face.

    Others, too. So many others.

    Maryal

    marni0308
    June 18, 2006 - 11:56 am
    Sounds so wonderful. Thanks!

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 02:49 pm
    I am caught up at last. On the trip to Philadelphia, Susan and I listened to Toibin’s The Master (a novel about Henry James) which just won the IMPAC prize for 2006. We’re about half way through. I’m very much enjoying it, but it knocked part of Don Quixote out of my head. That and all the information about Wyeth, including a biography of him, Andrew Wyeth: A Secret Life by Richard Meryman which I’m now reading. Too many ideas going on in my mind at once, plus all those wonderful paintings.

    Anyway, my final comment on the captive’s tale is that it’s a pretty good adventure story. The part where they have made good their escape only to be captured by a French ship was exciting, I thought. The whole story is sort of a miracle story, isn’t it? More than a story of real happenings, that is.

    We are to believe that because a Christian slave taught Zoraida to pray a Christian prayer to the Virgin Mary, her heart became fixed on a desire to convert—that’s in the order of a miracle, isn’t it?

    Now I have to do the reading for next week which I note begins tomorrow.

    Puff, puff, puff.

    Here’s a link to one of the paintings I loved.

    http://www.oakknoll.com/bookimag/003674.jpg

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 02:56 pm
    This is one of the Helga paintings, entitled "Braids"

    http://www.carolinaarts.com/1004mint-awyeth.jpg

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 02:58 pm
    And this is the sleeping dog one, "Nell Gwyn" that I want in my living room.

    http://museumshop.high.org/webdata/Products/8742/lg8742.jpg

    Deems
    June 18, 2006 - 03:03 pm
    One last one. This is "Groundhog Day."

    http://www.philamuseum.org/exhibitions/special/93.html

    1amparo
    June 18, 2006 - 11:13 pm
    Joan P : Did Spain ever do battle with the Moors who were also Muslims during the Crusades?

    Oh boy!, did they ever! Lepanto WAS a crusader’s battle. Below is a link for those interested in Spanish Knights involvement in Crusaders. On paragraph 6 , 3 thirds down mention my ancestors town “MOYA”. Actually one large village atop a high hill/mountain with beautiful castle, one hospital, four churches, convent, townhall, and several large dwellings; all in ruins of course, (but still impressive and beautiful). And at the base of the hill there are tiny dwellings. And within few miles around in a cluster, are few more “Moya”, villages one for each of the ancestor’s sons/daughters, and a little Moya river. All very picturesque. The first Moya (ancestor) was given the towns and titles for “having fought very bravely, wisely and fairly against the Moors in 911.” (And wining )

    Few years ago when I went to see “our” ruins I stayed at the “Moya Hotel”. When the owners saw that my maiden names are Moya-Moya they would not take payment!

    Crusaders and Spain

    Al Andalus was the name the Moors gave to Spain. Their main cities; Granada, Sevilla and Cordoba down south Spain and still called to this day Andalucia region. La Mancha (and Moya towns) region is centre of Spain.

    I was born in Valencia, eastern coast of Spain, for many years a Moorish Citadel. Don Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar known as El Cid Campeador, expelled the Moors from Valencia in 1099, he died on that last battle.

    El Cid

    Amparo

    hats
    June 19, 2006 - 01:21 am
    I have enjoyed the links to the paintings. I hoped you would bring back some souvenir for us, the painting links are the best you could have brought to us.

    I have never seen "The Sleeping Dog" or the first painting. I love the first painting too. Thank you for the title of a book too. I have wrote down Mr. Meryman's name on my to read list. Well, I enjoyed the trip too.

    Hi Amparo, I am anxious to read your above post. I haven't read it yet. Your posts are always great!

    hats
    June 19, 2006 - 01:24 am
    Maryal, I thought of the story of the Christians, Zoraida, the renegade and the other captives as a story of a miracle too. "Miracle" popped in my head immediately.

    I have just read an earlier post. It describes more painting. You have done a wonderful service by bringing back such delightful descriptions. Thank you.

    1amparo
    June 19, 2006 - 04:42 am
    One bit about El Cid which we, Valencians, are made aware of very early in our school days: El Cid defeated the Moors “post mortem”. They were at a battle against 150,000 moors fighting on the beaches of Valencia. El Cid was mortally wounded; word spread like fire that “El Campeador” was dieing: the Spaniards were panicking, the Moors euphoric because they knew without El Cid the Christians were lost.

    El Cid before he died ordered his commanders that in the morning when the battle was to continue, he, El Cid, must be amongst his men: he was to be tied up to his horse “Babieca” and his sword “Tizona” had to be in his hand. And so, when he died this they did, and in the morning Babieca run out at full gallop, as was used to, with El Cid mounted on Babieca, and his commanders by him. The soldiers on seeing their “Campeador” went wild thinking he had got better overnight and thus were given the courage to fight.

    The Moors on seeing Babieca with El Cid firmly mounted on and “Tizona” in his hand thought Allah had returned El Cid from the death and so the battle was won.

    Amparo

    PS. I found this on the Internet:

    Between the two shining columns and in the lead rode El Cid, the very same Champion, mounted on Babieca and outfitted in his most resplendent armour; upright, rigid, imposing; his helmet drawn down to his eyes, his long white beard resting on his steed’s saddletree, and his right hand . . . uplifted and wielding Tizona, his implacable and invincible sword! . . . Thus, even after death did My Lord Champion win his last battle (Morales 114-115).

    Joan Pearson
    June 19, 2006 - 06:07 am
    What a treat coming in here on a sultry Monday morning! Washington humidity and heat are back! Our new air conditioner is not to be installed until Thursday...

    Maryal brings us visual souvenirs from the weekend, Amparo, invaluable background to bring history to life! Am I correct in looking at the "war" with the Moors as a civil war, which has been reduced in Cervantes' time to minor squirmishes and expulsions? Never trust a Moor, says Zoraida - they are all liars. This seems to sum up the lingering attitude of suspicion and unrest towards the Moors in Spain? (Love the El Cid story...sounds familiar, almost like something from mythology.)

    Art is not mentioned in our story of Quixote, is it? Art or architecture...churches, icons? I realize Don is travelling in the wilderness, only an occasional inn - but no mention of churches at a time when the Church appears to rule supreme.

    Maryal - thank you for the OED discussion of the term "apostate"...Amparo, can you check the Spanish and tell us how you understand the term - in chapter XL to describe Hassan Aga, that cruel Venetian "renegade"... I'm most interested in how you translate Cervantes' use of the word here. I am also interested in today's use of the word - much broader.

    Joan Pearson
    June 19, 2006 - 06:24 am
    ...(Chapter 42) the captive has finished his story. Hasn't yet mentioned his name, did you notice that? The first thing I noticed - it's Don Fernando, not Don Quixote, who reacts to the story. This chapter seems to dwell on class differences, doesn't it? Don Quixote, who had been treated as the guest of honor before the pair arrived at the inn, is now quiet. I'm amazed that the captive refuses offers of help. What's he hiding?

    marni0308
    June 19, 2006 - 07:10 am
    I wasn't so surprised that the captive refused assistance. He had refused much of his father's assistance years earlier, if I remember correctly. I guess he was an independent proud man who wanted to make his way without charity.

    Interesting info about the Spanish knights and El Cid. Thanks, Amparo!

    Years ago there was a movie out called El Cid starring Charlton Heston as the Cid. I missed it. Did anyone see it?

    1amparo
    June 19, 2006 - 07:12 am
    "Azán Agá vino a ser el mas cruel renegado que jamás se ha visto".

    Joan K. You seem to have the right translation there. He was a Venetian who was very cruel and had at sometime being captive of Uchali and under his patronage became very rich and powerful and eventually king.

    Do you all realise that in the story of "The Captive", Cervantes is in fact narrating his own times in Algiers, and his escape atempts, even to pay for vessels to take them away??? It is like reading his biography again! Small changes here and there...

    Modern meaning of the word renegado or apostate; it comes to mind all those men (Australia is supposed to have had a couple or so) that are/were sympathizers of Al-Qaeda or whatever it is called.

    Almost Tuesday here, I am off to bed.

    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 19, 2006 - 07:16 am
    I wonder if Cervantes received money from a beautiful Moor who wanted to escape with him to Spain and convert to Christianity?

    hats
    June 19, 2006 - 07:17 am
    Marni, I remember the movie coming out too. I missed seeing it.

    Amparo,yes, I tried keeping Cervantes in mind while reading this part of the story.

    I enjoyed reading about your hometown, Moya too.

    hats
    June 19, 2006 - 07:18 am
    Marni, oh la la! It doesn't seem too far hatched.

    gumtree
    June 19, 2006 - 09:19 am
    I'm still limping along one my old grey mare (ain't what she used to be). I'm in the midst of the interpolated story Lotario/Anselmo - as the great man said -Oh what a tangled web....

    Have skimmed these later posts reading here and there - Amazing just where a story like this takes us all - even into recipes - my mother made quince paste and I have her recipe which is almost exactly the same as the one Amparo posted - she also made quince jelly and preserved the fruit as well. Quince is fairly common here and is now regaining popularity among the trendy set

    I remember the El Cid film with Charlton Heston - he surely could do those roles to perfection. The scene with him riding into battle after he had been died was superb. Did I hear that Heston now suffers with Alzheimer's? I read about El Cid many years ago and for a while got quite caught up by him - Robert Southey translated the chronicle (forgotten its title) and I think I still have a copy of Corneille's drama 'Le Cid' somewhere but in English best of all is "The Poem of the Cid' W.S. Merwin.It seems to capture the time, the man and the events as no other (allowing that I don't read Spanish of course).

    Bed for me now - hope to be with you more often from now on...

    Deems
    June 19, 2006 - 09:35 am
    Hey, Gum, it is lovely to see that you are hobbling on behind. Not to worry, you are getting close to where we are.

    Poor Don Quixote--another "trick" is played on him in Chap 43. Maybe if he would just learn to go to bed at night like sensible folk, but no, he has to stay up all night, praise is lady Dulcinea, and guard the "castle."

    I liked the reunion of the captive and his brother, the judge. Isn't it fortunate that the other two brothers are rich. The daughter is, of course, beautiful. (I'm feeling mighty old and ugly with all these every one is more beautiful than the next girls .)

    Joan P--I hope you are sheltering at the Folger or the mall. If you would like to come over to Maryland, I have an air-conditioned house. I've also got a sprinkler in the backyard that you can run through if you would like. And a woodpecker. The woodpecker especially likes the spinkler. Who knew?

    Mippy
    June 19, 2006 - 01:52 pm
    Our DLs ask: why DQ continues to get into such precarious situations with Maritornes and the innkeeper's daughter?
    I could hardly believe the weirdness of their practical joke!
    This time, the "humor" wasn't funny, but heavy handed, IMO, and I just had to read through it quickly.

    In contrast, I was quite taken with the details of the interpolated novel, including the escape with the rich Zoraida, sailing through unknown waters, and the captive's apparent reunion with his family.
    The overlay with Cervantes life is also fascinating, although I cannot figure out how the details work out.
    Just a theory: Had Cervantes wished he'd been ransomed by a beautiful Moorish girl?

    1amparo
    June 19, 2006 - 06:40 pm
    My post 1083 Sould read Joan P not "K"

    When tired, my twice meningitis brain cannot compute.

    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 19, 2006 - 09:43 pm
    I just saw a 1/2 hour TV program (Turning Points/History International Channel) about the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588. That was right in Cervantes' time. I hadn't really thought about that before.

    It was a HUGE catastrophic defeat for the Spanish navy, the Spanish king, and Spanish prestige in the world - at least temporarily. Philip II spent a huge fortune building the ships and sent them off with 30,000 men aboard. He had planned to restore England to Catholicism in a glorious crusade. The armada was twice the size of the English fleet. In the battle against Sir Frances Drake and the English fleet - and storms at sea afterward in unknown waters - the Spanish fleet was decimated. About 1/2 the ships were lost and approx. 2/3 of the men died.

    What a blow for a staunch Spanish subject and fervent Catholic.

    1amparo
    June 20, 2006 - 02:53 am
    ... when told of the events: "I sent them to fight the enemy, not the elements."

    And from there on Spain went down and down, from bad to worse right up to Franco's death in 1975.

    Now Spain is once again up and running with the rest of the world.

    Amparo

    Mippy
    June 20, 2006 - 03:57 am
    Marni, what an interesting post -- leading us to consider how Cervantes was affected by knowledge
    of those naval battles?
    I've always thought of the Defeat (capital D) as a huge victory for England, and had never thought of any valid Spanish point of view.
    Wasn't Spain trying to invade? Therefore, didn't they "deserve" to loose? Anglophile, here. Sorry, Amparo.

    Alison Weir and other authors wrote extensive histories on the reign of Elizabeth I of England and
    the queen's love/hate relationship with Spain, during those critical years.
    Here is an Amazon link to books by Alison Weir:
    A. Weir

    1amparo
    June 20, 2006 - 04:57 am
    No need to say sorry, history is history. Spain tried to hush down as long as it could the massive losses; the country was bankrupt. Cervantes by being in Sevilla at the time, was able to hear the news sooner than others, via those who did not perished and were able to make it home. To Cervantes it meant: goodbye monies the government owes me (he was a tax collector at the time), I shall never get paid… and he didn't… and to top it all was thrown into jail for monies collected and pocketed by others/superiors.

    Philip had married Mary, Elizabeth half-sister. After Mary died Philip had tried to marry Elizabeth, she rejected him. I suppose one could say, he had that chip on his shoulders?

    Not only did Drake defeated the Armada; he went to Spain (he knew there were neither ships nor sailors to stop him), and had a lot of fun creating havoc and sinking the few ships left in the southern ports of Andalucia.

    Philip II was a lax man, if a very religious one.

    Amparo

    hats
    June 20, 2006 - 05:15 am
    I didn't care for the joke played on Don Q. It seemed a bit cruel. I suppose, no matter how simple or silly Don Q's actions, I am beginning to feel sympathy for him. I wish him to get back home safely with his friend, Sancho. I don't want people to take advantage of his odd behavior.

    gumtree
    June 20, 2006 - 06:51 am
    Just looking in before bed ... Amparo's right 'history is history' but if Drake and the elements hadn't overcome the Spanish Armada England would have been subjected to religious persecution by Phillip. They already had enough troubles of their own making without that!

    Joan Pearson
    June 20, 2006 - 06:59 am
    Good Morning! (Or evening, depending on where you are!)

    From the fry pan into the fire..no heat relief any time soon. We're here in Memphis, arrived at 1:30 this morning. You haven't felt heat until you've been here in a heat spell - which seems to last from June through September! Yesterday it was 97 degrees here, today threatens to reach 100. At least we're air conditioned, although a trip to the zoo is planned for this afternoon.

    Had planned to bring laptop, but ran out of room- it's amazing how big and bulky birthday presents for a 3 year old boy can be! Will try to peek in as much as possible as time allows.

    Gum, you're catching up - glad to hear from you as you get closer. Have you noticed that there is light at the end of the tunnel...a few chapters short of the end of Volume I! Do you get the feeling that Don Q. will be returned to his home for the cure and that will end Volume I? Hopefully, everyone will be caught up in the next week or so...

    Hats, I'm feeling sorry for him too - our knight is so naive and inexperienced as far as women are concerned - when he puts that hand into the hole, what was he expecting to happen? It seems that he wanted the lovely princess to admire his strong hands - maybe his manhood? Does he have misgivings about a meeting with Dulcinea? Is that why he puts off going to her at her request? Will he be man enough for her? He seems so like an adolescent boy, doesn't he? I don't like that everyone is laughing at him.

    Oolalala, I hadn't thought about the details of Cervantes' escape from his captives. Was there a woman involved, do you suppose? So much of the account is autobiographical, after all. Maybe we'll never find out, but it is something to think about, isn't it?

    The real history of Cervantes' world is fascinating. Everything is in flux while he writes of this imaginary adventure in the woods.

    It's hard to concentrate right now, but am savoring your posts and observations - feel I'm on the outside, looking in. But then, aren't we all?

    Keep cool!
    Meanma

    Mippy
    June 20, 2006 - 07:07 am
    JoanP ~ Enjoy your grandson and the birthday day and your family and have a great visit!
    The rest of us will just plod along on our mules ... cough, cough, very dusty on the trail ...

    Joan Pearson
    June 20, 2006 - 12:22 pm
    Mippy, not so dusty if you spend a few days in the inn quaffing a few...what might one quaff in this inn, Amparo?

    I'm serious about this...how big of a coincidence was it that the captive and his brother came to the same inn this very night? What went through your mind when you read this?

    I've been thinking about Don Q...and Cervantes. How much of himself did he put into this character? Does the author feel disrespected, misunderstood? You know what they say about comedians and that fine line. He seems to be having fun making Don the butt of everyone's laughter...Dore enjoyed the image of the man, standing on the back of Rocinante, with his finger stuck in that hole...


    If Rocinante moves, and Rocinante does move, there hangs the knight by a fingernail! What was Cervantes' own relationship with women?

    Traude S
    June 20, 2006 - 06:46 pm
    Though still hanging back, I've made it to chapter 40. I keep going back to check a detail here and there.

    JOAN P, I hope you have a great visit with the family.
    Regarding Cervantes and women: He married in 1584 at 37, his wife was much younger (by either 18 or 22 years, depending on the respective source). Before he married he fathered an illegitimate daughter, Isabel, with an actress. His marriage was childless.
    He lived surrounded by women: his wife, his mother, two unmarried sisters and a servant. In the late 1580s he left his wife and from then on led a nomadic existence. That's when he was a tax collector and at least twice in great difficulties because of financial irregularities.

    The relationship between the powerful Ottoman Empire and the rest of Europe was an uneasy one. The Turks, forever on forays of conquest and expansion, were greatly feared, and with good reason. I believe that sentiment is reflected in the captive's narrative also.

    As a matter of fact, Cervantes' perspective is markedly different from the glowing, glorious Turkish history recounted by Turkish author Orhan Pamuk in his novel "My Name is Red", which we read earlier this year in RATW (= Read Around the World).

    That is to be expected; in fact, it may be a reason why we tend to believe that England "deserved" to win in the various wars it fought on the European continent with different nations by land and sea over the centuries.

    1amparo
    June 20, 2006 - 07:19 pm
    Article in this week’s “NEWSWEEK” International edition. I did not know if laugh or cry: hasn’t this man, David C Pack ever heard of the Crusaders and the Church involvement in them?

    “WAR, KILLING and the MILITARY

    BY DAVID C. PACK

    Should members of the Church of God go to war? Is it their duty to bear arms, fight and kill—“serve” in the military? Can wars be “just”? In war, does the end ever justify the means? What does God say?”


    Have a g’day!

    Amparo

    1amparo
    June 20, 2006 - 07:31 pm
    Small correction RE: Cervantes daughter's Mother: she was in fact the wife of a tavern or inn proprietor (much older than her), so documents say. This daughter, Isabel, despised her father Cervantes and quite right too! for when the mother died and Isabel was an orphan (age 15) she was sent to Cervantes sister and was treated from there on as a servant and little else.

    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 20, 2006 - 09:08 pm
    Have a good visit, JoanP.

    Re: "...Don Q...and Cervantes. How much of himself did he put into this character?"

    I was thinking about one thing Cervantes did not put into the character. Cervantes had a wonderful sense of humor. He made the Don a comedic character, but he sure did not give him a sense of humor. I don't detect any sense of humor in the Don whatsoever.

    Re: "2. Was it too much of a coincidence that the Judge appeared at the same inn this very same night the captive and Zoraida arrived?"

    Absolutely, it was too much of a coincidence! But, it's typical of Don Quixote. Think of all the people meeting up in the wilds of the mountains a few short paragraphs ago and the night bedroom scenes in the inn. This technique reminds me of a number of comedies - Shakespeare's comedies had plenty of impossible coincidences. Fielding's Tom Jones - same thing. Same with Dumas' The Three Musketeers. Etc. It's a way to tie up a story's loose ends and it's a way to create hysterical farce.

    1amparo
    June 20, 2006 - 10:34 pm
    Joan P

    I almost forgot about this one!

    Wine, of course!! What else?? The ones who could not affort the real stuff would have wine diluted with water = "Baptize wine" or "Cristian wine"

    Amparo

    hats
    June 21, 2006 - 02:02 am
    JoanP, enjoy the grandchildren!

    hats
    June 21, 2006 - 04:51 am
    I have read so much about enchantment and enchanters in Don Quixote. Is it possible to know whether Cervantes was a supertitious person? Don Quixote blames his bad situations or bad luck on enchantment all of the time. These enchanters are a constant part of his life. I suppose enchantment appeared in many of his books of chivalry too.

    Joan Pearson
    June 21, 2006 - 07:09 am
    An interesting question, Hats. Was Cervantes a superstitious person himself? What do you all think? Certainly we see a deep-rooted belief in the presence of spirits in religious beliefs. Not sure about the enchantments and magic. The Church is vigilant in condemming such beliefs. I think I see Don Quixote's enchantments being spoofed by Cervantes. There was a telling comment in Chapter XLV about how others' minds are free of entanglements, they can see things as they really are, rather than as they appear to Don Quixote. I perked up at that - does it mean that Don is aware of his delusions?

    Thanks, Traude for the biographical background - you too, Amparo. It seems that Cervantes had limited relationships with women - the young wife, the innkeeper's wife. Is he revealing these relationships in his character then?

    Marni...thanks for comment about the coincidences here...for pointing out that such were taken in stride back in Cervantes' time. When I read it, I had the same thought as I did when reading of the great beauty of every single maiden of high birth. That these were more typical of short tales repeated in story-telling, not expected to be read in one sitting, as a novel. Cervantes can be seen stringing such stories together in Volume I - Individual stories, loosely strung together in Don Quixote's episodes of knight-errantry. I'm expecting to see quite another method of story-telling in Volume II. I might be wrong about this, but I think his " novel" will be tighter, less inconsistent in the telling. I'm not complaining about these stories of Volume I, don't get me wrong - I think Cervantes reveals much about his characters without really intending to do this, perhaps. I just think he's formulating a new form of storytelling as he writes this, and we'll see the results in the next volume.

    Oh, boy, it's hot here! Went to the zoo yesterday, most of the animals were seeking refuge from the heat and not to be seen. The polar bears were wonderful...the best exhibit of the day. And it was cool in the underwater area where we could view their antics.

    Will be home tomorrow...the air conditioner man should be there bright and early! Oh, and,\ my little grands are adorable - the heat doesn't seem to bother them at all! (why is that???)

    Traude S
    June 21, 2006 - 07:52 am
    AMPARO,
    This is not the first time that details from the lives of historic personalities are recounted differently by different sources on the web. That is true also for historical dates. I've seen many examples of it on the net, blatant inaccuracies, egregious errors and linguistic misinterpretations.

    As for Cervantes, Google sources give the age difference between Cervantes and his wife, Catalina de Salazar y Palacios, variously as 18, 20, even 22 years . One source says
    "He had a daughter, Isabel de Saavedra, from an affair with an actress, Ana Franca de Rojas or Ana de Villafranca. Isabel worked as a servant in the family but her way of life caused him much (sic) worries."
    The same source mentions that Cervantes' two unmarried sisters lived in his house, which is conceivable in an age when unmarried women needed protection, i.e. the protection of marriage, the family or the convent.
    What exactly displeased Cervantes about Isabel's "way of life" is unclear from the source I cited. That she was a servant in the house is also quite likely. If you know more about the reason for the strained relationship between father and daughter, would you share it with us?

    The sources I saw also give a different date for the affair: Some say it happened two years before Cervantes married Catalina; others says it happened in 1584, the year of the marriage. Surely this is not of major importance but it makes clear the point I am trying to make.

    The web contains an unimaginable wealth of information, available at one's fingertips at all times, but not everything found there is accurate.

    Deems
    June 21, 2006 - 08:23 am
    Enjoy the remainder of your brief visit, Joan P. Good to hear that your air conditioner will be installed on Thursday. It is still hot here. And muggy though not as bad as it gets.

    I'm not sure if we should go on to chap 44 today even though it is in the schedule. Maybe it would be a good idea for everyone who can to read the next two chapters so we'll be ready to discuss on Thursday.

    I have a biography of Cervantes, fairly scholarly. I'll have to look up the information about the marriage and the daughter. Some of the facts of Cervantes life are hard to pin down, but we know a LOT more about where he was and what he did than we know about Shakespeare which is interesting to me.

    Amparo, the U.S. version of Newsweek doesn't have the article you mentioned. Not surprising, I guess, but I'm wondering if the article on Johnny Depp took its place.

    Maryal

    Joan Pearson
    June 21, 2006 - 12:59 pm
    Thanks, Maryal - it would be great if you'd check that "scholarly biography" of yours for anything more on Cervantes' Love Life.

    The poor Judge...he is all set to move to the Indies with most beautiful daughter when he is confronted with the sobbing Don Luis. (Can you believe there is anyone more beautiful than Luscinda, Dorotea and Zoraida? We need the magic mirror on the wall for the answer to this question!)

    Judges don't like to make snap decisions. They like to get all the facts first. The judge needs to get more information from Don Luis - more specifically, Don Luis' father. I keep looking for some biographical data that links these betrothal stories to Cervantes' own experience...he seems to be trying to make a point by repeating them.

    We'll be flying out of Memphis this evening. It's 100 degrees here today! I'll miss these little ones something fierce, but will return in August for the princess birthday party.

    Our new air conditioner will be installed tomorrow...and Friday and I just read that the temps in the DC area will be only in the 70's this weekend. Can this be so?

    Happy summer, everyone! Keep cool wherever you are!

    hats
    June 21, 2006 - 01:43 pm
    Rereading the chapter about the judge's thoughts about his brother, is like all reunions so sad and happy too. Reading about the captain and the judge, the brothers, reminds me of the Bible story about Joseph meeting his brothers after such a long time.

    "From his first glimpse of the judge, the captive's heart had pounded with the certainty that this was his brother, and he asked one of his servants what the judge's name was and if he knew where he was from."

    "And bring to our aged father the news that you were alive, even if you were in the deepest dungeons of Barbary...."

    Remember Isaac waiting for word to come back from Egypt about the identity of Joseph, the missing brother? I think Cervantes writes the words of the brothers in a very emotional way. It makes me want to cry. The brothers love one another so deeply and love their father too.

    "...he would have had no need to wait for the miracle of the reeds to obtain his ransom."

    hats
    June 21, 2006 - 02:08 pm
    The muledriver's song is very beautiful. One part of the song reminded me of Don Quixote's knight errantry quest.

    "Steadfastness in love
    can often win impossibilities;
    though this may prove
    too harsh a terrain for my tenacity,
    I despise that fear
    and strive to reach my heaven from this sphere."

    The muledriver seems to be singing about his strong will. Nothing is impossible when it comes to winning one's love. Nothing is worth making him give up.

    The muledriver seems to have the same philosophy as Don Quixote. Nothing is "impossible" when it comes to righting wrongs done to suffering men and women.

    In the Grossman translation there is an interesting footnote.

    "Martin de Riquer indicates that this lyric(and other poems inserted in the text) was composed by Cervantes years before he wrote Don Quixote and set to music in 1591 by Salvador luis, a singer in the chapel choir of Philip II."

    I think this is so fascinating. It tells us a little more about Cervantes. It tells about the years before he wrote Don Quixote. I love these little footnotes. It's extra special having Amparo here to add more delicious information.

    Deems
    June 21, 2006 - 02:58 pm
    Hats- I love Grossman's footnotes too. And I agree that having Amparo around is just like having an encyclopedia in the corner. Aren't we lucky to have a native speaker?

    Joan P--I don't know where you are getting that temperature information, but the Washington Post has 84 for Saturday and 82 for Sunday. I got so excited when you said the 70's that I had to look it up.

    1amparo
    June 21, 2006 - 07:18 pm
    These Spanish paragraphs are taken from Real Academia Espaňola where Cervantes documents are kept, and new ones are coming when the historians have time to look at them. I shall give a quick translation between (-).

    Ana de Villafranca, también llamada Ana Franca de Rojas, esposa de un tabernero, que le dará una hija natural, Isabel, nacida en otoño de 1584; El 12 de diciembre de 1584, a la edad de 37 años, se casa con Catalina de Salazar y Palacios, joven de 19 años en, hija de un hidalgo recién fallecido de Esquivias, tierra de viñedos y olivares. Este casamiento le lleva a afincarse en el pueblo de su mujer, sin perder por ello contacto con los medios literarios de la Corte.

    (his daughter Isabel born in autumn of 1584. And 12 December same year marries Catalina; he is 37 and she 19)

    La investigación emprendida por el alcalde de Corte Villarroel, las deposiciones recogidas en el proceso, conservado en el archivo de la Real Academia Española, el encarcelamiento, durante un par de días, del autor del Quijote, a raíz de las insinuaciones de una vecina en contra de la conducta de sus hermanas y de su hija, arrojan una curiosa luz sobre la condición y vida del escritor y de sus familiares.

    (while living with his sisters and daughter, a neighbour complained to the authorities about the going on his sisters and daughter {their many male friends, although it does not say so here in this document}.)

    Varios acontecimientos de índole familiar marcan la vida del escritor durante esos años (1610 – 1615): en primer lugar, sus desavenencias con su hija Isabel y sus dos yernos sucesivos, Diego Sanz y Luis de Molina, por asuntos de dinero y por la posesión de una casa situada en la calle de la Montera, cuyo legítimo dueño era un tal Juan de Urbina, secretario del duque de Saboya, quien, al parecer, mantuvo con Isabel un trato no exento de sospechas; luego, una sucesión de muertes: la de su hermana mayor, Andrea, ocurrida súbitamente en octubre de 1609, la de su nieta Isabel Sanz, seis meses más tarde, y la de Magdalena, su hermana menor, en enero de 1610.

    (here it tells of disagreements between Cervantes and his daughter due to her two husbands and the baby Isabel {Cervantes granddaughter}, on the death of the baby, thanks to Cervantes Isabel lost the home she was living at the time and maintenance she was receiving from the child’s father that Juan de Urbina; Isabel’s lover. it is because of this that after Cervantes death Isabel did not want to know or have anything to do with her natural father niether to spend any money to put a sign on Cervantes burial place, hence it was lost through the years. It also mentions the death of two of Cervantes sisters).

    cheers. amparo

    Traude S
    June 21, 2006 - 07:27 pm
    A few questions are being answered, the captive has a name and the military rank of captain. Grossman says in one footnote that Cervantes was not an officer, but he must have drawn heavily on his own experiences as a soldier and a prisoner/slave for more than five years.

    Cervantes imparts other fascinating tidbits as well in the "interpolated novels" (Grossman's term), for example in chapter 40, after the second sonnet, where he explains the name Uchalí Fartax , which means "the Renegade with Scabies", thusly:
    "... it is customary among the Turks to name people for some fault or virtue that they have, and this is because they have only four family names, and these come from the Ottoman house ...", (hence the use of nicknames).

    The respective footnote on pg. 342 in the Grossman translation identifies these four names as Mohammat, Mustafa, Murad and Ali)

    Traude S
    June 21, 2006 - 07:43 pm
    AMPARO, we posted within minutes of each other.
    Thank you for taking the time to provide this valuable information from the best source available.
    It's interesting that, because of insinuations, an official investigation was undertaken regarding the "conduct" of the sisters and the daughter. Well, where there's smoke ... etc.

    1amparo
    June 21, 2006 - 08:19 pm
    TRAUDE S. Yes Cervantes used the word "tiñoso" which lerally means "scabies", however I think Cervantes meant it as stingy, mean, nasty etc., as it is Spanish slang used to mean just that.

    marni0308
    June 21, 2006 - 09:08 pm
    Amparo: Wow, that info about Cervantes and his daughter is certainly interesting. I wonder what he did that caused his daughter to lose her home and lover? And why?

    My edition has a footnote that explains the man with scabies, Uchali, had leprosy.

    Hats: I enjoyed your footnote.

    1amparo
    June 21, 2006 - 11:44 pm
    Marni, When little Isabel (Cervantes granddaughter) was born, the natural father gave the child's mother a house where to live with the baby and paid maintenance/keep for the child, even if by then the relationship between the lovers had cool off. Cervantes signature as guarantor was/is in the document that says Isabel (Cervantes daughter)has the use of the house plus x amount for expenses. When the child died Cervantes gave back the house to the duke of Saboya's secretary, the child father, (Cervantes wa a friend of the Duke)and also helped stop the keeping or maintenance monies.

    Obviously, Cervantes daughter did not like that one bit as her "husband" was not rich. It seems that one of Isabel husbands was nothing but a "promise to marry", the other did marry her.

    Amparo

    PS: Cervantes wrote: Uchalí Fartax which he goes to describe as "renegado tiñoso". We know "renegado" as we have had it before.

    From Real Academia Española; Tiñoso, fig. y fam. Miserable, mezquino, avaro.

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 03:04 am
    Thank you Deems, Traude, Marni, Amparo. It helps to have so many on the trail to help each other along. I missed that footnote about the officer with scabies and the reasons given for names. I will read it again. I think Traude gave the page number.

    I woke up thinking about the muledriver with the beautiful voice. He is not really a muledriver. He is from a very wealthy family. He can not marry Clara because she is from a lower class. The muledriver refuses to give up his love. He chooses to follow her along the way.

    I am beginning to feel that during this time in Spain the class system is what makes the wheels turn or stop turning in a person's life. It brings heartbreak to some of the characters, like Clara and the other ladies.

    I remember the book burning by the priest. The priest worries about the Don's behavior after reading the books. What is the priest's other reasons for burning the books of chivalry? Is it because the books tell the truth about a class system or is it because the books romanticize real life? What was written in these books about the church? Were secular problems blamed on the church?

    Maybe Cervantes is trying to tell some disturbing truths about this era in Spanish History. What was life like for the common people, people like Sancho Panza? I know he left his family. Other than that, why did he so desperately want his insula, his island or kingdom? Did he feel owning his island would allow him to better care for his family? Other than madness, why does Don Q feel this desperate need to relive the Golden Age? What is going wrong in the Iron Age? As a child would say, "what needs fixing here in the Iron Age?"

    We have talked about the Barbary Pirates, the Moor and Turk problems, the galley slaves, the religious questions between the Christians and Moors. I am beginning to see this is not a fairy tale life these people are leading. These people are on a battlefront like Cervantes in the Battle of Lepanto.

    Thinking about the Don's life again. He had fell from a nobleman's lifestyle. His property needed repairs. The Don escaped into books. Anyway, what happened to a nobleman who fell from grace? If he tried could he rise again? Of course, the Don is fighting old age.

    Now I am going back over most of the posts. I might have missed some very important and stimulating information. After all, I missed that footnote.

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 03:40 am
    JoanP,Thank you for staying with us all the time, making sure we don't lose our way. No matter where you go or what you need to do your mind is on us and Don Q. What a thoughtful leader!

    Joan Pearson
    June 22, 2006 - 05:11 am
    hahaha, Good morning, Hats! Sometimes I feel like a muledriver here! - There's so much to think about along the way, as your many questions indicate. I'm sure Cervantes is commenting on the issues of the day, but must cleverly obscure them to escape his censors. To be honest, I can't tell what his main purpose is yet - to entertain his readers, and support himself, or to criticize those in power. An activist or an entertainer?

    We'll be talking about the book burning again tomorrow, but today we need to concentrate on packing up to leave the inn - we're running up big bills here!

    The judge had checked into the inn as the first leg of his journey to the Indies. Now he meets his long lost brother, who needs to be escorted home, perhaps...and a lovesick suitor for his young daughter's hand. He seems to think it an advantageous union, because the young muledriver is really the son of a very wealthy man... maybe there is some hope for the pair?

    How does any of this affect the path Don Quixote will be taking when he leaves the inn castle today? Will everyone follow Don Quixote to avenge Princess Micomicona? Stay tuned.

    The air conditionning man is coming, the air conditionning man is coming!!!!!!

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 05:20 am
    JoanP, are we packing up and leaving an inn or a castle?

    Joan Pearson
    June 22, 2006 - 05:29 am
    Well, Hats, some of us are leaving the inn, a number of us, a castle. How about you?

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 05:44 am
    Don't leave me behind. I am coming too.

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 07:29 am
    Oh, I am leaving an inn.

    Mippy
    June 22, 2006 - 07:35 am
    JoanP ~ Good luck with your A/C man; there's no end of house repairs and improvement, are there? We had to replace some fence this year, here at Cape Cod; why should a 20-year old wood fence fall down, I ask you!

    Thanks, Joan, for being the mule driver, also.
    I came into the castle/inn this morning, and found 14 wonderful posts!
    What a busy evening you all had; how was the wine?
    I'm all packed and ready to depart (taking a small carry-on on my mule)

    Seriously, Thanks Amparo, Traude, and all for all the information and help understanding who is who ... sometimes I feel like Sancho, wondering who is pretending ... who is enchanted ... who is a real princess ...

    hats
    June 22, 2006 - 07:54 am
    1. Why won't the knight help the innkeeper, who is being pummeled by the cheating guests? Isn't a knight sworn to help the poor and the downtrodden whenever he sees injustice?

    I think Don Q won't help the innkeeper because of the orders of chivalry. Don Q can't help the innkeeper because the innkeeper is of "squirely folk." Only Sancho can save the innkeeper from being beaten to death because he hasn't been dubbed a knight yet.

    I think the whole situation just proves the foolishness of the orders of chivalry. Don Q stands totally still, not doing a thing to help, while the innkeeper is being beaten unmercifully by people who are refusing to pay their bill for lodging and food. The Don just stands there waiting for the arrival of Sancho.

    Joan Pearson
    June 22, 2006 - 08:03 am
    Mippy, aren't we fortunate to have such resources here our participants! - a real treasure. All we have to do is ask...and we receive!

    So, you feel like Sancho, do you? Me too. Aren't those two a pair? Have you ever once felt that Don Quixote had an idea that he might not be grasping the reality of the situation? It wasn't until he hesitated to comment about Sancho's saddlebag that he owned - "since your graces have not been dubbed a knight,you may not be obliged to see the entanglements, and you can understand the things that go on in this caste as they really and truly are, rather than as they appear to me."

    But Sancho...sees things as they are, yet wants so much to believe what they might be, that he sometimes succeeds!

    Hats, do you suppose that the vows of chivalry- to help those in need were really misinterpreted by Don Quixote to preclude those of lowly rank? I'm wondering where he got this idea? Might Cervantes be conveying a message here? Possibly about the Church, vowing to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc, in fact in the service of the rich? Or?

    marni0308
    June 22, 2006 - 09:24 am
    Oh, dear. My valiant steed has been galloping along and we pulled ahead of the group. So we stopped in a beautiful pasture so my steed could munch on grass while I had some sips of wine. Now I find the group has passed us. However, I'm catching up again.

    Last night I read the section where the Don, standing on Rocinantes' saddle, put his arm through the straw hole (whatever that is) at Maritones' request and she bound up his wrist with a halter and tied the other end to a door so the Don couldn't escape. He was imprisoned and spent the whole night hanging outside of the hole, standing on his horse, straining to free his hand, but unable to do it.

    That scene has to be one of the funniest things I've ever read in my entire life. I was in hysterics laughing at 1:30 a.m. last night in bed trying not to wake up my husband. What a riot!

    "....he [the Don] was in the utmost apprehension and dread, that if his horse should make the least motion to either side, he must lose his support, and the weight of his whole body hang by one arm; so he dared not venture to stir...."

    "...he found that he must either continue in his present upright posture, or part with his hand...."

    "...then he called to his trusty squire Sancho Panza, who, stretched upon the pannel of his ass, and buried in sleep, at that instant, retained no remembrance of the mother that bore him..."

    "...one of the horses belonging to the travellers, drew near and smelled at Rocinante, who sad and melancholy, with his ears hanging down, stood supporting his outstretched master, without stirring; but, at length, being made of flesh....he was sensible of the civility, and turned about to repay the compliment to the courteous stranger; and scarce had he moved one step, when both his master's feet slipping from the saddle, he would have tumbled to the ground, had not he hung by his arm...."

    Joan Pearson
    June 22, 2006 - 11:40 am
    Marnie, you were one I thought had galloped way ahead of the pack - along with JoanK and PatH!

    Don't you love the Dore illustration of that scene? Highly suggestive, no? Putting his finger into the hole, hoping to impress the girls? This is the second time our knight has forgotten himself and given in to temptation at this "castle" - it surely must be enchanted!

    Deems
    June 22, 2006 - 01:07 pm
    Marni--I thought the scene of the practical joke with Don Quixote tied up and suspended in air was funny too. The whole incident is so improbable, for a man's body to hang from one hand only over hours without serious injury being done to, say, the shoulder. For quite a long time, Rocinante doesn't move so Quixote is more uncomfortable than anything else.

    The serious part I saw is the reference to the strappado, a medieval torture where one was suspended just off the ground so that the toes could brush it. What a terrible time in which to be a heretic or have information that someone in the Inquisition might want. Here again, Cervantes is most likely commenting on the horrors of tortures implemented by the Inquisition.

    (For those of you who might want a comic take on some officers of the Inquisition, may I recommend the current movie, Cassanova. It's really quite delightful and not what you're probably thinking. It reminded me of several of Shakespeare's comedies all smushed together with a little extra plot added. Very entertaining and some nice scenes of Venice, or at least some canals and houses. Available on DVD from Netflix.)

    Maryal

    Joan Pearson
    June 22, 2006 - 01:46 pm
    Gosh, Maryal, that went right over my head! Even at his most humorous, Cervantes is conveying these messages. What do you think? Is his primary goal entertainment or veiled criticism?

    I liked the part when he realized that all the factions were fighting on the "battlefield" - and the brave knight blew the whistle (whistle?) on the fighting when he realized that no one knew why they were fighting. Quite an observation for someone who is said to be delusional!

    Traude S
    June 22, 2006 - 07:42 pm
    JOAN P., in answer to your question, is it possible to conjecture that it may be both: entertainment and criticism? Veiled criticism of the Church, and clearly deliberate ridicule of Chivalric romances and practices?

    As for class, Cervantes distinguished between the "high-born" and the "low-born", i.e. nobleman and commoner. Yet it was believed that nobility was inherited exclusively through the father.

    In her long speech in Chapter 36, Dorotea says to the hesitant Don Fernando
    "And if it seems to you that you will debase your blood by mixing it with mine, consider that there are few, if any, noble lines in the world that have not taken this path, and that the bloodline on the woman's side is not relevant to an illustrtious lineage ..." (pg. 243 in the Grossman translation)
    The Spanish Inquisition was worse in that country because its practices were more cruel and much harsher than in other countries. It was a violent age, which was noted also in the discussion of "My Name is Red", a novel that deals with the same historic period.

    Still, some of the practicel jokes played on DQ and Sancho are cruelties, and I find no hilarity in the humiliations inflicted on the two of them. As I've said before, DQ and Sancho Panza have contrasting personalities, but are in fact complementary. Both are thrown into a world of materialism that has little use for idealistic notions.

    marni0308
    June 22, 2006 - 08:04 pm
    In another book discussion - naturally, I can't remember - someone provided a link to a whole list of tortures used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was very shocking. There were so many of them. They each had a name like the strappado. How horrifying. Torture seems like the worst possible thing man can do to man. I can't think of anything worse. It seems like some men enjoy torturing others. It's hard to imagine how someone could get to that position.

    However, in this description of Don Quixote hanging from the hole, being compared to a prisoner being tortured with the strappado method, I didn't find it horrifying, but comedic. It showed a very vivid picture of the Don hanging there. It's one of those many instances in this book where the Don is in dire straits but it's very funny.

    It certainly showed Cervantes' knowledge of the type of torture. I wonder how many did in his time? How would they find out? Through personal experience or from someone who had been tortured? Did the Inquisition broadcast information about tortures to keep people in line?

    My valiant steed and I are catching up with you tonight. We're really racing along with the air whipping through our hair. I'm holding on for dear life.

    See you in a few minutes!

    JoanK
    June 22, 2006 - 08:33 pm
    My mule rebelled and refused to go on. I've got another mule and am racing to catch up.

    JOANP: "do you suppose that the vows of chivalry- to help those in need were really misinterpreted by Don Quixote to preclude those of lowly rank? I'm wondering where he got this idea?"

    Literally, if I remember correctly, he devised it to explain his failure in an earlier battle: he was beaten because he had behaved improperly fighting a lowborn.

    It's interesting here, though. DQ and Sancho have been accumulating a crowd of other people who have been advancing the plot. Whenever one of them has a problem, one of the others steps in to help them. DQ and Sancho are becoming increasingly irrelevant, except as a source of fun. Then finally, when DQ is asked to help, he refuses and stands by. I thought this was his most pathetic moment (True, later he talks the participants out of it).

    I do think DQ is making points. Chivalry only applies to the upper classes. Even there, it is irrelevant to the real problems that people have.

    This is not just an academic point. When Cervantes wrote, chivalry was not just a source of novels. There were many Lords and knights fighting wars by the laws of chivalry. Barbara Tuchman, in her book "A Distant Mirror" describes how, in 15th century France, this fact could be destructive and these rules become nonsensical in real situations.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 02:41 am
    I have been thinking of "My Name is Red too." We discussed torture in that discussion too. The word "strappado" wasn't used. It was another word. I just can't remember the word. Someone in the discussion went to great length explaining it to us.

    I am thinking there is a lot of "veiled criticism" in Don Quixote. To me, "enchantment" is not just a term used to make the reader laugh either. Perhaps, for those suffering during this time, this was there way of explaining away unchangeable and difficult situations in their life. This use of giving power to "enchanters" might not have made the church happy; I don't know. I just feel the people slipped back and forth between enchanters and prayer. The Don uses the rosary, penance and never is not thinking about enchantment. Difficult times call for difficult methods.

    2. What must the judge require of him before granting Don Luis his daughter's hand? Are all of these betrothal stories following the same theme? If so, what is Cervantes getting at?

    I think Don Luis needs the permission of his father before he can marry Dona Clara. The father wants a titled daughter. Dona Clara is lowly born, not titled. I see all the betrothal stories following the same theme. Getting married just for love does not work in this world. These betrothals are very class oriented.

    The Spanish world at this time is full of rules or codes of honor. There are rules for chivalry. There are rules for marriage. It is a very strait laced society. Like some of you have said, I feel Cervantes is using Don Quixote's madness as a coverup. Don Quixote is used as a comic puppet to say what Cervantes would not have been allowed to say without repercussions. This makes Cervantes talent greater. He discovered a clever idea to voice his dissents.

    Don Luis uses masquerade to get to the lady he loves. He masqueraded as a muledriver. I think someone else used masquerade too. Was it Dorothea? Cervantes seems to use disguise often in Don Quixote. Disguise gives a person the chance to carry out his goal. Masquerade is a tool to change an impossible situation.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 03:01 am
    These posts are so informative and interesting. I am just drinking each one in. Cervantes, I am sure, would enjoy these posts.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 03:18 am
    Did we discuss torture in The Shadow of the Wind" discussion too? The story happened around the time of the Spanish Revolution. It's odd and wonderful how so many book discussions seem to weave into one another with spontaneity.

    Joan Pearson
    June 23, 2006 - 06:57 am
    - Good, good morning!

    I wonder if you realize the contributions you make here?! I'm with you, Hats - I savor each one with my morning coffee - I find myself nodding my head in agreement, sometimes my eyes open wide as new understanding dawns! It's magic when you catch up, full of new insights.

    JoanK - you make an important point here - the old rules of chivalry have become "nonsensical" in Cervantes time, knighthood AND our knight have become increasingly "irrelevant, except as a source of fun."

    He is becoming quite pathetic - either sleeping while others devise ways to manipulate him, or he's literally tied up and helpless or rendered more helpless still by the irrelevant rules of chivalry. JoanK, you make the point that chivalry was irrelevant to the real problems people have. Do you think perhaps that Cervantes is equating the church with chivalry here as being "irrelevant to the real problems people have?"

    Traudee - both entertainment and criticism in one parcel - veiled criticism of the Church and deliberate ridicule of chivalric romances? Hmmm, it seems that might please all of his readers some of the time! Both would enjoy the church criticism, the low-born would appreciate the spoof on chivalry and the nobility.

    As we procede, let's not forget the tortures of Inquisition and what it must have been like living through this - especially if you were a noble ...or a writer like Cervantes who felt compelled to criticize! Am I correct in thinking that the low-born would not be exempt from the attention of the Inquisitors? As I recall, they enjoyed turning out in throngs to view the spectacle of the upper class being tortured.
    Cervantes got the crowd laughing at such humiliation - as Marni points out, our Knight's humiliation hanging from the hole in the wall was great, but we all found ourselves howling with laughter even though we felt sorry for him.

    Hats, I think the torture in Red was called "bastinado"- I don't know why, but it seemed so much more inhumane than the tortures of the Inquisition. Maybe I should go read up on the Inquisition? I'm probably off-base here.

    Coffee break!

    judywolfs
    June 23, 2006 - 07:27 am
    Joan how interesting - that point regarding the rules of chivalry becoming nonsensical in real situations; like fighting wars. It seems that those rules have been completely and clearly depicted as nonsensical throughout the entire book so far.

    “Don Quixote is used as a comic puppet to say what Cervantes would not have been allowed to say without repercussions,” (from Hats). I absolutely agree, but then, I also must admit that the comic part doesn’t work very well for me at all – it’s too physical – very similar to the 3 Stooges poking each other in the eyes, or hitting each other with baseball bats. Which, come to think of it, is a little bit too closely related to torture in my mind.

    I had to return my overdue library copy of Don Quixote yesterday, and I’ll be able to go check it out again tomorrow. During the meanwhile, my entire living room looks empty without that huge, heavy volume taking up half the coffee table! ~JudyS

    Joan Pearson
    June 23, 2006 - 07:54 am
    Are they being repeated for a reason? The judge requires that Don Luis get his father's permission to marry his daughter - just as Luscinda's father required Cardenio before he would allow the marriage. Luscinda's father had no hesitation to allow his daughter to marry Don Fernando. Hats sees the betrothals as class oriented. The judge wants to be sure Don Luis will permit his son to marry his untitled daughter or he will not agree to the marriage. You're right, Hats, love has nothing to do with marriage in the upper class world. It would be better for a woman not to be born into such a society. What are her options - Especially if she is not a great beauty or comes from wealthy, though untitled parents?

    Traudee brings us the passage in which Dorotea spells out the problem of "blood mixing" - though Don Fernando was taken with her - did he love her, I don't remember - but she loved him enough to take him back even though he had shamed her. Will someone please remind me why he decided to change his ways, why he decided to hand Luscinda back to Cardenio without a fight? Was he shamed into it? Had he run out of options? Do we know what his father thought of the match?

    One last thought - was Cervantes ever personally affected by the betrothal "rules"? Would this explain why he dwells on them here?

    Interesting comments about "enchantment," Hats"Masquerade is a tool to change an impossible situation." Hats - do you see Don Quixote "masquerading" at any time in this story?

    Judy - about the slapstick scenes - the melee at the inn, the bopping on the head till almost dead - no that doesn't work for me either...but I wait and am usually rewarded by an observation from Cervantes through his characters. Like when Don Q blew his whistle when he realized no one knew why they were fighting. I loved that! Wish we could do that in real battles!

    Are you all packed? Shall we make our goodbyes at the inn and move on down the road, ever so slowly? Those of you who are just catching up, please feel free to comment on any of the earlier chapters. We'd love new insights!

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 10:39 am
    JoanP I see Don Quixote as being in costume the moment he sets off on his journey of knight errantry. In other words, the Don Q we meet taking the journey to right wrongs is not the real Don, the fifty year old man. He is not the nobleman reading books of chivalry and allowing his property to become unkempt. The Don Q who loves Dulcinea, who thinks a basin is a helmet, who swears to give Sancho a kingdom is living a life of disguise. Don Q is living a life of pretense or masquerade.

    JoanP that is the word, Bastinado. Thank you. Also, I love your riders on horseback. They are really galloping along.

    Hi Judy I am glad you are rejoining us on the trail.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 10:56 am
    Hats: I thought your remarks about disguise and masquerade were extremely interesting and important. I hadn't thought of that at all.

    The Don is living a masquerade but I'm not sure he realizes it or not.

    --------------------------

    Re torture. I thought of something. In England during the 16th century torture was used on those who were not of the aristocracy. Supposedly, aristocrats and royalty were "exempt" from torture. They would just be killed, if found guilty of crime punishable by death, rather than be tortured first. I read something about this when I was reading about a treasonous plot against Elizabeth I.

    ----------------------

    Re enchantment. The church believed in some types of enchantment. They believed there were witches and evil spirits. Look at poor Joan of Arc. And doesn't the church occasionally perform exorcism even today?

    ------------------------

    Re chivalry: JoanP and Deems already explained what chivalry was. But I went back to Wikipedia for another look to refresh my memory. Here's a blurb from their explanation:

    "Chivalry refers to the medieval institution of knighthood and, most especially, the ideals that were/have become associated with it throughout literature. It was also often associated with ideals of knightly virtues, honor and of courtly love.

    Chivalry was in essence a warrior code which was later appropriated and propagated by the Church which added the Christian aspects....Today, chivalry is interpreted as courteous behavior, especially towards women. "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry

    I was just thinking about Wikipedia's term "warrior code." We still have "warrior codes." They are written into codes of contact of the various armed forces, for example. John Paul Jones first wrote down rules of conduct for officers in the Navy. One that I know of was that an officer in the navy must be "an officer and a gentleman."

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 10:57 am
    In Chapter XLV the Holy Brotherhood becomes involved in the fight. In the footnote,

    "In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, it was not unusual for innkeepers to belong to the Holy Brotherhood; the staff was a symbol of authority derived from the king."

    Is it possible to learn a little more about the Holy Brotherhood. These men were sanctioned by the king. Were they like a religious union or guild? I suppose the innkeepers needed to pay for the Brotherhood to come to their assistance. Maybe the Holy Brotherhood is like a group of policeman.

    Anyway, they are ready to arrest Don Q because he freed the galley slaves. This seems like another spoof to bring our attention back to the treatment of the galley slaves during this period.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 10:59 am
    Marni, all good stuff especially about John Paul Jones rules or "warrior codes."

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:03 am
    Talking about the military got me thinking of something else regarding how people were treated differently depending on class. In America during the Revolution, officers were treated differently from those without commission. For example, captured officers who were put to death were not supposed to be hanged. They might be shot, but generally not hanged. There was a code of conduct regarding how to kill people. Non-commissioned men could be hanged. Hanging was considered a crueler and more demeaning death.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 11:04 am
    This arrest of Don Q is like a comedy. The man with the warrants can't read well. Don Q really gives a tongue of words back to this Holy Brotherhood. Don Q call the Holy Brotherhood "low and base intelligence." Then, the Don says he's above "all jurisdictional authority." Is the Don saying he doesn't need to obey the king???

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 11:06 am
    Marni, that's very interesting. Gives me something to think about.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:07 am
    Hats: I was wondering about the Holy Brotherhood, too. At first I thought they were part of the Spanish Inquisition. But we saw something about them policing the highways. And now they're at the inn.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:14 am
    I just found this on the web:

    "The Holy Brotherhood or the Santa Hermandad, was a union of Spanish towns formed at the end of the fifteenth century with the approbation of the King, who sought to make use of the bourgeoisie in the struggle between absolutism and the big feudal lords. From the mid-sixteenth century the armed forces of the Santa Hemandad performed police functions."

    http://marx.org/archive/marx/works/1854/revolutionary-spain/notes.htm

    "The union of the Spanish kingdoms of Aragón and Castile was effected in 1469 by Ferdinand's marriage to his cousin Isabella I, queen of Castile. Ferdinand had hoped by this alliance to obtain the Castilian crown for himself, but his high-spirited and politically astute wife firmly retained sovereign authority in her own realm. The political philosophies of the two rulers were almost identical, however, and their reign was inaugurated with the promulgation of energetic and sweeping measures designed to strengthen the royal authority and to curb the power of the nobles, who had usurped many privileges and functions of the Crown. To this end, in 1476 Ferdinand organized the Santa Hermandad, or Holy Brotherhood, a kind of national military police. Insistence on religious conformity was one of their basic policies. In 1478 a bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV empowered the king and queen to appoint three inquisitors to deal with heretics and other offenders against the church; this marked the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition. The Inquisition targeted non-Christians, especially Marranos, Jews who had insincerely converted to Christianity for their own security. Although founded to further religious ends, the Inquisition in Spain became a political instrument of the absolute monarchy, further abridging the power of the nobles and bringing the monarchy closer to the church."

    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761575778/Ferdinand_V.html

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 11:21 am
    Whoopee! Marni this is all so fascinating. Amparo isn't this a great journey? I can't wait for Judy to get her book back from the library.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:29 am
    Info about the Inquisition:

    http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761552909/Inquisition.html

    On page 2 of this article, it says:

    "Also distinct from the medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition was established with papal approval in 1478 at the request of King Ferdinand V and Queen Isabella I. This Inquisition was to deal with the problem of Marranos, Jews who through coercion or social pressure had insincerely converted to Christianity; after 1502, it turned its attention to similar converts from Islam, and in the 1520s to persons suspected of Protestantism. Within a few years of the founding of the Inquisition, the papacy relinquished virtually all supervision of it to the sovereigns. Thus, the Spanish Inquisition became more an instrument of the state than of the church, although churchmen, especially Dominicans, always functioned as its officers.

    It was centrally directed by the Supreme Council of the Inquisition, but its procedures were similar to its medieval counterpart. It became in time a byword, particularly in Protestant areas, for cruelty and obscurantism, but its methods were much the same as those of similar institutions in other Roman Catholic and Protestant countries of Europe. Nevertheless, its superior organization and the consistency of the support it received from the Spanish monarchs, especially Philip II, assured that it would have a greater impact on religion, politics, and culture than comparable institutions elsewhere. This efficiency and political support enabled Tomás de Torquemada, the first and most notorious grand inquisitor, to execute thousands of reputed heretics.

    The grand inquisitor and his tribunal had jurisdiction over local tribunals in colonies such as Mexico and Peru, which were usually more concerned with sorcery than heresy. Holy Roman Emperor Charles V introduced the Inquisition into the Netherlands in 1522, where it failed to wipe out Protestantism. The Spanish established it in Sicily in 1517, but were unable to do so in Naples and Milan. Historians have noted that many Protestant lands had institutions as repressive as the Spanish Inquisition, such as the consistory in Geneva at the time of the French reformer John Calvin. The Inquisition was finally suppressed in Spain in 1834."

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:38 am
    A bit more about the Santa Hermandad:

    http://www.bartleby.com/65/he/hermanda.html

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 11:38 am
    Marni these links are really great. This quote is from the above information in post#1153. So this explains the "Holy Brotherhood" being ruled by the king, I think. I always thought the Inquisition remained under the rulership of the church. For me, knowing the Inquisition became ruled by the state is new information or information I missed in the past.

    "Within a few years of the founding of the Inquisition, the papacy relinquished virtually all supervision of it to the sovereigns. Thus, the Spanish Inquisition became more an instrument of the state than of the church, although churchmen, especially Dominicans, always functioned as its officers."

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 11:42 am
    Hats: I was surprised by that, too!

    JoanK
    June 23, 2006 - 11:43 am
    These posts are fascinating! I never realized that the inquisition was an instrument of kingly power, but once you see it, it makes perfect sense.

    And I love the comments on masquerade. yes, Cervantes is masquerading as his characters, and getting away with a lot!!

    The pictures of torture machines referred to earlier (please excuse me for not going back to see who) I think we saw in Read Around the World.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 11:45 am
    JoanK I think this is a fascinating discussion too. I hope Pat H is well.

    JoanK
    June 23, 2006 - 11:53 am
    She's great, just busy. You'll see her soon.

    Joan Pearson
    June 23, 2006 - 12:00 pm
    This is indeed fascinating - showing the differences between the Papal Inquisition in Rome and the Spanish Inquisition under supervision of the State. An eye-opener! "In the 1520s persons suspected of "Protestantism" were tried - wasn't this the charge against Joan of Arc? Many say she was the first "protestant" to be recognized a saint by the Church. The Spanish Inquisition became more an instrument of the state than of the church but with the same goals of the Papal inquisition.

    Good find on the Holy Brethren! I didn't realize that innkeepers were included in this group. More about the innkeeper, books and censorship in chapter 46 Interesting to me that none of the members of the Brethren we have met can read, but these policemen are vigilant and vigorous in carrying out their orders nonetheless. They've come to apprehend the runaway Don Luis and one of them is carrying around the warrant to arrest Don Q for releasing the king's galley slaves. They wield the power of the king!

    I've been reading about the tortures of the Spanish Inquisition...happy to read that many of them were never used, but some seem as terrible as those used in "My Name is Red"...

    Did read that Censorship was a great target of this Inquisition. Cervantes was risking a lot with his veiled criticism.
    Censorship
    "As one manifestation of the Counter-Reformation, the Spanish Inquisition worked actively to impede the diffusion of heretical ideas in Spain by producing "Indexes" of prohibited books. Such lists of prohibited books were common in Europe a decade before the Inquisition published its first. The first Index published in Spain in 1551 was, in reality, a reprinting of the Index published by the University of Louvaine in 1550, with an appendix dedicated to Spanish texts. Subsequent Indexes were published in 1559, 1583, 1612, 1632, and 1640. The Indexes included an enormous number of books of all types, though special attention was dedicated to religious works, and, particularly, vernacular translations of the Bible. Included in the Indexes, at one point or another, were many of the great works of Spanish literature. !!! Spanish Inquisition

    I've been on the lookout for PatH too, Hats! But busy, Bo knows busy! Let her know we miss her, Joan!

    Traude S
    June 23, 2006 - 12:31 pm
    JOAN P, yes, Don Fernando was shamed into taking poor Dorotea up. He had become unduly fixated on Luscinda and in fact abducted her. Luscinda, in every sense DFon Fernando's captive, arrived at the inn with a small entourage. Doroite was there and everybody else; Cardenio was hiding behind a door.

    Don Fernando was still keeping a tight grip on Luscinda, but Dorotea implored him on her knees to return to her because of the promises he had made to her. After much pleading, Don Fernando magnanimously changed his mind. What a cad!

    The Catholic Church had used coercion on recalcitrant for centuries before b means of excommunication, which could take various forms: mild or extreme. In the extreme case, the life of the person who had committed offenses was at stake. Martin Luther was one oe the latter. There was a centuries long struggle for power and supremacy between the Church and the Holy Roman emperors.

    These are essential faacts included in the history curriculum of European high schools but less well known here, except perhaps to students of theology.

    Could AMPARO or PAT H please tell us what Spanish term was used for "enchantment"? I recall that the German word in the German translatioin was "Bezauberung", which imparts a sense of sorcery or magic.

    I tend to believe that Cervantes was intent on describing and parodying the Spanish society of his time, the power of the Church, and the people with their idiosynchrasies, pieties and (incongruous) superstitions. He succeeded.
    In the early sixteen hundreds, some old Chivalry Romanes were still reeprinted, but no new romances were written thereafter. Serious critics had long muttered that chivalric novels had become outmoded, but it is likely that Cervantes' Don Quixote delivered the coup de grâce.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 12:38 pm
    JoanP and Traude your posts are so interesting. "Fascinating" is the best word for all we are learning about Don Q and Cervantes and this time in Spanish History. This is a quote from Traude's post.

    "In the early sixteen hundreds, some old Chivalry Romanes were still reeprinted, but no new romances were written thereafter. Serious critics had long muttered that chivalric novels had become outmoded, but it is likely that Cervantes' Don Quixote delivered the coup de grâce."

    Deems
    June 23, 2006 - 12:39 pm
    Thanks for all that information and the links. I found these two sentences especially chilling:

    "To this end, in 1476 Ferdinand organized the Santa Hermandad, or Holy Brotherhood, a kind of national military police. Insistence on religious conformity was one of their basic policies. In 1478 a bull issued by Pope Sixtus IV empowered the king and queen to appoint three inquisitors to deal with heretics and other offenders against the church; this marked the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition."

    Given the current temperature in America what with a terrorist behind every bush and the argument always given that Homeland Security must be given certain information (currently of the banking variety) in order to keep us "safe." Safe is in quotation marks because I think it is an illusion to believe that it is possible to be SAFE.

    What I notice in the quoted sentences is how one restrictive measure leads (almost immediately) into another and that other is the Spanish Inquisition. YIKES

    The Holy Brotherhood was mentioned several times earlier in the novel, always by Sancho if I remember correctly, and always as a way to get Don Quixote off the road at night.

    They sound like a pretty scarey paramilitary group to me.

    Good to have you back, Joan K. Say hi to Pat H. Hello Hats. That's a really helpful idea about masquerade. I think Quixote does "become" the knight when he puts on the costume, but when he's back at home reading and reading all those romances, he is simply a gentleman, of the impoverished kind.

    I also think that the actual rules of chivalry and the way that knights and their ladies were portrayed in the many books about them were very different things. And real knights were around during the middle ages, part of the crusades thing. The STORIES we all know about Lancelot and Roland and all those others were created later and had to have been highly romanticized creations. Don Quixote's problem is that he follows descriptions in books.

    Trying to come up with a parallel, I think of the "Old South" as it is portrayed in a very popular novel, Gone with the Wind. It was first published in 1936 many years after the Civil War about a period immediately before and during that war (1861-1865). After the Civil War, a myth grew up about the antebellum South. Little of it was true. Gone with the Wind is in that tradition of myth.

    When you think about it, though, and read a little history, you discover that very few Southerners lived on plantations or held slaves. Many Southerners who fought in that war were fighting for "home" wherever home was.

    Like American soldiers in Iraq right now. Most of them are fighting for a vague idea of "democracy" and for each other. Most are fighting for the guy standing next to them.

    I suspect that knights (during the Middle Ages) were fighting because they were sent by their liege lords off on crusade or to some war over local territory. They didn't have time to make up all these elaborate rules of chivalry.

    Maryal

    Traude S
    June 23, 2006 - 01:01 pm
    Sorry about the typos in my earlier post.

    Indeed, the Index librorum prohibitorum was another powerful tool. Church authorities compiled centuries ago a list Roman Catholics were forbidden to read unless deletion(s) or revision(s) had been made.

    As a child born of Protestant parents in the predominantly Catholic Rhineland, I was very much aware of the importance of that list and greatly relieved that I was not bound by it. Years later, my best friend in Heidelberg, who came from a Catholic family in the German south, found herself often at variance with elemental proscriptions and wrestled with her conscience a lot.

    hats
    June 23, 2006 - 01:04 pm
    "When you think about it, though, and read a little history, you discover that very few Southerners lived on plantations or held slaves. Many Southerners who fought in that war were fighting for "home" wherever home was."

    HiMaryal I agree "Gone with the Wind" is a myth. The movie and book is a myth because it romanticized American slavery. Mammy being happy because she is given a red crinoline and a glass of brandy is absurd.

    The fact is many slaves were owned, sold or mistreated. None of these facts are dealt with in the movie or book. This is why the book is just a nice romantic book to enjoy. It is especially enjoyable if you desire to be a Southern Belle who finds her Rhett Butler.

    "Gone with the Wind" is like the old chivalry books. In the book written by Margaret Mitchell there is some truth and many falsehoods. Sadly, today, there are people around like Don Quixote who would love to hold on to the past. Also, there are those who refuse to believe that there were large number of slaves carried from Africa and other areas to become slaves in America. There are also people who refuse to believe that slaves wanted their freedom and did not sing Swanee River happily outside their shacks.

    Unfortunately, some people refuse to believe the Holocaust happened either. Is it a conscience thing? If I believe this horrible episode happened in History, then I am responsible. Not true. Believing and speaking out against horrors in history does not make a person responsible for wrongs done by others, even if the wrongs were committed by a person's ancestors.

    It is deeply painful and insulting for anyone to play down the horrors of History whether the incidents happened during the Spanish Inquisition, during the American Civil War, during the Holocaust or during the Irish situation, Protestant against Catholic.

    Sadly, not many people have the mind of Don Quixote. Don Quixote wanted to right the wrongs done against his fellowman. This is the good part of the Don's psyche.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 01:30 pm
    JoanP: That article about the Inquisition is horrifying.

    I see there is info there about the "strappado" that Cervantes mentioned when describing the Don hanging from the hole.

    "Torture was always a means to obtain the confession of the accused, not a punishment itself. It was applied without distinction of sex or age, including children and the aged.

    The methods of torture most used by the Inquisition were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the criminal from the ceiling by a pulley with weights tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.[24]. The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had impression of drowning.[25] The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently."

    I read a book about Galileo. He was subjected to the Inquisition when he was an old man because of his writing of the sun revolving around the earth as opposed to the accepted theory that the earth revolved around the sun. At his trial, Galileo was penanced. ("Considered guilty, he had to abjure publicly of his crimes...and condemned to punishment.") Galileo had to publicly state his theory was incorrect. It was terribly humiliating for him. He was punished by being forced to stay home and he couldn't write, teach or speak about heretical ideas.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 01:37 pm
    I found this paragraph in JoanP's article interesting:

    "The fight from within against the Inquisition almost always took place in clandestine form. The first texts that questioned the inquisitorial role and praised the ideas of Voltaire or Montesquieu appeared in 1759. After the suspension of pre-publication censorship on the part of the Council of Castile in 1785, the newspaper El Censor began the publication of protests against the activities of the Holy Office by means of a rationalist critique and, even, Valentin de Foronda published Espíritu de los mejores diarios, a plea in favor of freedom of expression that was avidly read in the salons. Also, Manuel de Aguirre, in the same vein, wrote On Toleration in El Censor, the El Correo de los Ciegos and El Diario de Madrid."

    I think that Cervantes played a role earlier in fighting against the Inquisition in clandestine form when he wrote Don Quixote.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 01:41 pm
    Let's raise our glass of Manzanilla to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights! And let us be ever vigiliant to watch over them and keep our freedoms.

    judywolfs
    June 23, 2006 - 01:51 pm
    Why thank you Hats! I'll be able to get the book tomorrow. By the time I can get to the library tonight, it will be closed. I'll try to go into some kind of enchantment to get by without it until tomorrow.

    Marni, that's fascinating about the Holy Brotherhood! Sounds a little like the town sheriff made everybody a deputy. ~JudyS

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 01:56 pm
    Judy: I hope you get your book. I was shocked yesterday at my town library. A paperback copy of Don Quixote was on the "for sale" table where they sell little-used books cheaply to get rid of them. What a shame.

    Too bad it wasn't there last month!

    Joan Pearson
    June 23, 2006 - 02:33 pm
    Marnie, run back and buy it for Judy! We still have a way to go! Or call, and see if they'll look and hold it for you?

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 04:52 pm
    It's gone! Somebody got it! I guess that's a good thing. Somebody is reading the Don. Sorry, Judy!

    croomet
    June 23, 2006 - 06:03 pm
    Hi all, I just discovered this discussion. I always wanted to go back to my dusty Don Quijote but never got enought nerve. I know you've been discussing for a while, but I hope it's ok if I just jump in, in medias res so to speak. I'm not sure I know how to manage posts in this group, and I do hope I can get your posts right in my mailbox. Celia

    Deems
    June 23, 2006 - 06:37 pm
    croomet (Celia)! You are, m'dear, welcome as can be. We have lots of extra mules in this train. If you're lucky, you might even get a horse. Please feel free to post any comments you have. They are sure to get a reading here since it seems that we all read everyone's posts.

    That's a compliment, folks, because there are discussions "out there" where people jump in just to make the point they have in mind and don't engage in conversation.

    Here, we read each others' posts. That is a very very good thing.

    Welcome, Celia, have some wine and mancheago cheese (which I still haven't managed to remember to get some of at Fresh Fields).

    ~Maryal

    Traude S
    June 23, 2006 - 07:19 pm
    Welcome, CELIA, bienvenida! Please jump right in! We are glad to have you.

    Traude

    Joan Pearson
    June 23, 2006 - 08:21 pm
    What a pleasant surprise! This is a very good time to join us, Celia - in medias res, for on July 1 we should be starting Volume II. Cervantes takes a ten year break between the two volumes. We will begin anew. So. A big warm Welcome from our merry band!

    We all gather here together (not in your mailbox - not enough room for all of us in there) - feel free to comment whenever you like, night or day.

    marni0308
    June 23, 2006 - 09:25 pm
    Welcome, Celia! This is great having another "voice." Join us in our wonderful discussion and try a bit of manchego cheese and manzanilla wine on the trail.

    Marni

    1amparo
    June 23, 2006 - 10:27 pm
    Did you by any chance buy the Don Quixote book Marni was not able to get?? Just a thought.

    La Santa Hermandad is very much alive today all over Spain. And Cervantes in his time, would had had belonged to at least one Cofradia/Brotherhood. Remember "los padres trinitarios" (Fathers of the Order of the Holy Trinity) paid the "500 ducados" for his ramson when he was a captive.

    Amparo

    Mippy
    June 24, 2006 - 04:04 am
    Welcome, Celia!
    My mule is usually at the end of the pack, so join me there, or advance to the front with our illustrious Discussion Leaders (DLs) who will guide you along the dusty trail. Hope you don't mind our DQ imagination-at-work !

    Joan Pearson
    June 24, 2006 - 05:45 am
    Thank you for the information on the Santa Hermandad [Holy Brethren], Amparo. "Fathers of the Order of the Holy Trinity) (same as the "Holy Brethren?) paid the "500 ducados for Cervantes release. (not a woman, after all. I'd forgotten that!)

    Here's a great picture Amparo sent to be posted here. So, the four "policemen" who arrived at the inn to take Don Luis back to his father would have been wearing these uniforms? Do they still wear uniforms today, Amparo? Were they in the employ of the King? The Church? Volunteers? Does your translation refer to the four as "policemen" as Raffel does?

    Marni, will you check your Dore illustrations to see if he pictured one of these distinctive uniforms? (And thank you so much for checking your library for that book for Judy. Don't think we'll have that opportunity again! How much were they asking for it?)

    So, these four will escort the bound and crated Don Q. from the inn. What a strange sight! He must appear to be a very dangerous criminal, indeed! Well, he did free the king's criminals who were supposed to be serving on the royal galley. One of them has the warrant for his arrest in his pocket...

    hats
    June 24, 2006 - 06:10 am
    Oh boy, JoanP, I can't wait to read the new information. Welcome to All New Riders!

    Mippy
    June 24, 2006 - 06:14 am
    JoanP ~ Good Morning!
    Your post was: Do they still wear uniforms? Were they in the employ of the King? The Church?

    Before even looking up references, I'd assume the 1930s revolution in Spain would have stopped all such corps from being in existence, or from wearing such uniforms.

    Don't troops of the Church remind you of the Swiss guard in Rome?
    Here's a link, look at the date established!
    Swiss Guard

    Religion in Spain must have undergone disestablishment, (love that word) as it did in England during the 19th century. Does that sound right?

    hats
    June 24, 2006 - 06:16 am
    Mippy, thank you!

    Joan Pearson
    June 24, 2006 - 06:29 am
    Early birds! Good morning! I've got to walk this poor pup now - her master has gone to his softball tournament, but just want to point you to Amparo's last post, Mippy - "La Santa Hermandad is very much alive today all over Spain." My question to her was whether they wear uniforms today. Maybe they are ceremonial like the Swiss guard? But she said, "all over Spain." Thanks for the link to the Swiss Guard, Mippy!

    hats
    June 24, 2006 - 06:46 am
    Amparo thank you for sending the picture of the "Holy Brethern" to JoanP. What I notice are the red crosses on the tops of the uniforms. I suppose the uniforms were always red and white.

    I can't believe Don Q is in a cage. I feel very sorry for him. He did break the law. I think Don Q feels because he is a knight no one can arrest him. Really, I don't think he fully understands what is happening to him.

    "Who was the dolt who did not know that knights errant are exempt from all jurisdictional authority, or was unaware that their law is their sword, their edicts their courage, their statues their will?"

    1amparo
    June 24, 2006 - 06:56 am
    Only at some religious fetivities, as it is "Semana Santa" Holy Week/Easter. The Brother do now cover their faces with "capuchas" or hoods.

    This link is in English, scroll down to see how many cities and town are there!

    All over Spain

    Amparo

    PS. Not quite sure the link is going to work, usually it takes me few tries... it does! and I am off to bed.

    1amparo
    June 24, 2006 - 06:59 am
    My favourite is the one with the lion, wait till you come to it, will have you in tears of laughter

    hats
    June 24, 2006 - 07:00 am
    I almost cried this time. Amparo, the link is working for me. Thank you.

    Mippy
    June 24, 2006 - 07:00 am
    Amparo ~ Thank you for all the terrific information!

    Here is another link on Santa Hermanda; I hope I'm not duplicating a link above, since the SeniorNet boards were "uneven" all morning, and not all links would open.
    Hermanda

    Off subject:
    What kind of pup, JoanP? Mine is a black lab mix, named Neufie, who gets over 2 miles of walks per day.
    Since I began Ginny's Latin class and review out loud as I walk, he also answers to Neufus!

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 09:35 am
    Hi all, I am impressed with the wealth of illustrations contributed to this reading. Thank you! Going back to the questions, I read Ch. 46, loved it. "Wickedness in the village." Since I'm reading it in Spanish (no great feat there, I am a native speaker), the expression (if it's the one I think) may be a translation of Sancho's response to his boss' high praise of Dorotea: "hay mas mal en el aldeguela que se suena," or literally "there is more evil in this little village than it is rumored." IOW, Dorotea is not the high and mighty princess you think, but a common *whore* (is it ok to say that?).

    Of course Don Quijote flies into a rage. It's quite comical, how he piles insults on poor Sancho. I'd like to read how the insults were translated into English.

    Dorotea then placates DQ by wisely telling him that Sancho is a victim of an "encantamiento" (a spell). This makes sense to DQ.

    I'm not sure how to answer #3. He seems to be at first confused and alarmed as to the phantasmic creatures that bound and caged him, but is mollified later by the prophecy. Celia

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 09:53 am
    Could someone tell me why, even though in my preferences I checked "individual emails" I still do not get messages in my mailbox? Thanks, Celia

    JoanK
    June 24, 2006 - 10:13 am
    CELIA: WELCOME, WELCOME! Since our mules all go at different speeds, you will have company, wherever you are.

    I believe the e-mail option is not working. In any case, do you rally want to get 50 to 100 e-mails a day? Try checking the other option.

    I'm still mulling over the earlier point -- that the inquisition wasn't really about religion, but was a tool for the Kings to grab power. I listened to an interview with Salmon Rushtie last night, and he made a similar point -- he said that radical Islam was not about religion, but was a way for it's leaders to grab power.

    I'm really thinking about power these days. For whatever reason power is given, good or bad, it can become simply power. Who said "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

    Deems
    June 24, 2006 - 12:02 pm
    Celia--All I can tell you is that the Check email box doesn't work for me either. I tried it out, just to see. The other one, as Joan K suggests, is useful since it brings you here.

    As for your being a native speaker--Yahoo!!!! Please introduce yourself to Amparo, who lives in Australia, but who is from Spain.

    Now we have TWO people plus--is it PatH? who is translating along with reading it in English?--who are native speakers. This is very exciting.

    As for whether or not you can use the word whore here. Yes, indeedy, you can, since this is a discussion of a book where it would be useful for us to understand why Sancho gets Don Quixote so angry sometimes.

    Certainly implying that the sainted Dulcinea is sullied would do it!

    I was wondering where the earthiness was. We did have the episode where, in order to have Sancho witness a "mad" deed, DQ took off his trousers and walked on his hands or turned cartwheels or something, but other than that it has been pretty tame.

    And since Shakespeare delighted in sexual puns and other less than polite witicisms, I was sort of expecting something of the sort from Cervantes. After all, they lived at the same time, although in different countries.

    Maryal

    Joan Pearson
    June 24, 2006 - 01:46 pm
    Wow! Look at Celia hit the ground running, leaving her slow nag in the dust. The email feature is part of the new software we use on SeniorNet, but hasn't worked. It is on the webmaster's to-do list. It must be confusing to newcomers. We oldsters never had that option. Don't use it. Don't check the box. Someday, when it gets fixed we'll let you know and see how it works. I can't imagine getting all those emails in my mailbox, to tell the truth. Bad enough as it is.

    I'd love to know how you'd translate the insults Don Q. piles on poor Sancho when he suggests that Dorotea is less than the virtuous queen Don Q. thinks. I have the feeling that we've been given a cleaned up version. Raffel: "lecherous oaf," "foul-mouthed babbler," "contemptible fool..." What does the Spanish really say?

    My Raffel translation does have a footnote explaining that Sancho's remark - "all the whores can do their thing" is from a popular song of the time. Wish I could find that bawdy song. Maybe if I had the Spanish words I could find it?
    **************************

    "encantamiento" ~ I think we ought to talk about these spells, "enchantments" as Raffel refers to them. Do you sense that the Church would condemn "enchantments" as some sort of magic - black magic? Sancho says something about the masquerading phantasmic creatures as being not quite "católicas" Maybe this is what he means. Don Quixote understands that the only explanation for his situation is this "enchantment"

    Celia, you see him mollified by the prophecy, but you still see him believing he is "enchanted." The priest seems to pooh-pooh the whole idea of enchantment, as he explains to the policemen that our Don is not enchanted, but simply out of his mind.
    ******************************

    JoanK...I love that quote! - with the preceding part, it is even better - "The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to to govern. Every class is unfit to govern...Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton. Cynical?

    Mippy, Gaela is little red Irish Terrier - had her first birthday yesterday. Unlike Labs, quite hyper and difficult to train. We love her though - she's just a handful.

    1amparo
    June 24, 2006 - 06:37 pm
    I was fast sleep last night and suddenly my brain woke me up with a jolt: of course Cervantes had belonged to a cofradía, he was buried; dressed with the habit/robe of the “Orden Tercera de los Franciscanos.” Cervantes face was uncovered, so documents say.

    You can have a look here: (if you click on "historia" on left menu you will see present day Franciscans, females and children too, faces uncovered.)

    Franciscan robe

    Buenos días Celia, nice to have you on board and able to point out any “lost in translation” so the actual meaning of the story is kept.

    I am in Australia, thanks to my (late) Australian husband. However, I have been privileged to go back to Spain every year, my last time there just before last Christmas. Here in Adelaide where I am, we Spaniards are as common as hens’ teeth, hence my need to go back and practice the language.

    Where are you from and where were you born mate?

    Cheers all.

    Amparo

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 07:27 pm
    Thank you all for the hearty welcome. And hello Amparo from Spain, who lives in Australia (wow!). I'm Celia from Argentina, and I live in NY. I'm grateful that I can join you all, if a little late. Before I post more about DQ, I just wanted to say (a) tons of e-mails in your mailbox is not a problem is you have a gmail account, like I do. You have zillions of g-bites to play with, don't need to worry about your mailbox being full. In addition, gmail will arrange your conversations and color code them, you can see the different threads organized by subject, and you can collapse and expand them. I belong to other lists and they come in to different folders. No problem at all, so as soon as the individual e-mail option is up and running, do let me know. (b) How do you all manage to change the type to italics, highlight with different colors, and make it so pretty? Thank you. Celia

    1amparo
    June 24, 2006 - 07:32 pm
    LOL Celia, Welcome to Gmail.

    Don Quijote is very dear to me, hence I try to keep quiet and not being bias about it... well only when there is a "lost in translation"!

    Amparo

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 07:38 pm
    There is plenty of earthiness in DQ but it comes from Sancho's side. DQ's speech is as stuffy as the English translation you are reading, probably. There is a term in Spanish that refers to the relationship of language to character. It is called "registro" (I don't know the term in English). In other words, kings should speak like kings, and use noble language. Peasants should talk like peasants and use the language appropriate to their station in life. You will never hear DQ (God forbid!) lower himself to use vulgar language. So "lecherous oaf" and "contemptible fool" sounds about right. Now Sancho, and various other lowlifes DQ encounters along the way, they are another matter...

    marni0308
    June 24, 2006 - 07:47 pm
    Croomet from Argentina living in NY: Did you watch Argentina beat Mexico today at the World Cup? Pretty exciting stuff. First game I've watched that went into overtime.

    Marni

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 07:49 pm
    DQ (the book) among many other things, is a parody of books of "caballería." At the time of Cervantes, knight errants didn´t exist anymore, that´s why DQ, in his delusion, is trying to bring them back. One of the most circulated and imitated stories of "caballería" (knights errant?) was Amadís de Gaula. This story as well as all other stories of the genre, were filled with monsters and miraculous feats, and enchantments. They were mega fantasies. When our good ol´DQ says he under a spell, or "enchanted" he is simply reliving in his wild imagination the things that happened to the heroes of those books.

    And yes, I believe he is truly convinced he is under a spell when he is in bound and put in the cage. Celia

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 07:56 pm
    Marni: Did I watch it? Is the Pope Catholic? I´m still celebrating, but let me stop here. I don´t want to offend anyone with different allegiances. Joga bonito

    marni0308
    June 24, 2006 - 07:57 pm
    JoanP: The only Dore illustration in my edition which has what may be the Holy Brotherhood shows men in white gowns with hoods - looks exactly like the Ku Klux Klan. No red crosses. It's hard to tell sometimes what is being illustrated because the illustrations often aren't with the pages they are illustrating. Sometimes they come way before or way after.

    I think the DQ at the library was going for 50 cents.

    marni0308
    June 24, 2006 - 07:59 pm
    Celia: Do you know when Argentina plays Germany?

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 08:06 pm
    Marni: I believe the Argentina-Germany match will be played July 4 in Dortmund.

    marni0308
    June 24, 2006 - 08:17 pm
    Oh, our big holiday. Thanks, Celia!

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 08:37 pm
    This is the second time I type this post, the first one may be lost in cyberspace -- if not, my apologies, you´ll get the same post twice. A clue as to what the church thought about enchantments is at the end of Chapter 47, when the priest and the "canónigo" have a long conversation about the perils of books of knight errantry which caused DQ to go quite mad.

    croomet
    June 24, 2006 - 09:31 pm
    When DQ is tied and taken away the narrator states that only Sancho, of all those present knew who the hooded figures were, but he did not dare open his mouth as he wanted to know where all the commotion was leading. Sancho knows it is a scheme concocted by the priest and the rest of the group with him.

    1amparo
    June 24, 2006 - 11:08 pm
    Please, I am curious; what do you mean by "joga"? Is it an Argentinian word for "jugar - juego"? Ma non é giocare, vero? Or is it a SpanItalia new word?

    I do have my share of SpanEnglish words, when even I cannot understand what I am saying! LOL.

    Do you (all) know, the ones who could translate Sancho's unique idiom?: The English Cockney. Everytime I hear a Cockney speak I think of Sancho; the fruty peculiar language, the expression and characteriscs of the words. They translate so very well.

    I lived in London 10 years, both my children were born there, therefore I know.

    Amparo

    gumtree
    June 25, 2006 - 01:23 am
    Hello to Celia - I'm trudging along at the back of the pack but making up time all the way - I expect I'll be level pegging on July 1 when we start the second book. Keep on enjoying the soccer. I think all of Australia is still cheering the Socceroos for making it into the next round for the first time EVER. We have not been a soccer nation - Tuesday will be a moment of truth when we play Italy.

    Joan K - your comment on Salman Rushdie 'Radical Islam is not about religion but was a way for its leaders to grab power' Hasn't this always been so no matter what the religion. I'm thinking particularly of the Moors and Spain but down through history the Christian Church and others have had the same goals. I am a fan of Rushdie's and find he usually offers considered views and not just something off the top of his head.

    Amparo and Mippy - thanks for your latest links. The celebrations must be something to witness. I think it important for communities everywhere to celebrate and encourage the understanding of their country's heritage

    hats
    June 25, 2006 - 05:56 am
    I think the conversation between the priest and the canon about books of chivalry is interesting. For some reason I believe Cervantes places himself in the canon's head. The canon begins listing the good reasons for these books.

    "He found one good thing in them, which was the opportunity...providing a broad and spacious field where one's pen could write unhindered, describing shipwrecks, storms, skirmishes, and battles;..."

    I feel like an author is beginning to talk through the canon. He goes on and on about the worthiness of creative thinking by using the imagination.

    hats
    June 25, 2006 - 06:02 am
    The priest feels very good about his involvment in the book burning. He tells the whole story about what he did to Don Q's books. I am thinking both the priest and the canon are part of the church. I don't know the duties or rank of a canon. I wondered why, finally, Cervantes used the canon to voice the value of a "free writing style...the author to show his skills as an epic, lyric, tragic, and comic writer, with all the characteristics contained in the sweet....

    hats
    June 25, 2006 - 06:27 am
    Cervantes does spend a lot of time on this discussion between the canon and the priest. Cervantes also brings up again the book burning. That incident happened in the first pages of the book.

    Joan Pearson
    June 25, 2006 - 11:27 am
    It's a bit crazy around here today - I'll try to come back in this evening when company goes. I have a few minutes to clear some of these notes from my desk...

    Sports
    This is great - we have our own international world cup gathering right here on the trail. Now to figure out who to root for! Amparo, you must have been cheering on Enland today! How long did you live there? Brits are soccer-crazy, aren't they?

    I think I'll go for the Cinderella team on Tuesday - the the Aussies, the underdogs on Tuesday against a sharp-looking Italian team. I'll cheer loud along with you, Gum...but would be surprised, (pleasantly) if they go on.

    I'll have to go for Spain over France is that tomorrow, Amparo? France hasn't played all that well.

    And then there's Argentina and Germany on the fourth. The crowds will be loud for the home team, but my money is on Argentina, Celia. (In fact, Argentina just might go home with the "cup.")

    Tech Stuff - Celia, you might want to play with this html code...some basics. Do them one at a time until you figure out what you are doing. You have to type the code exactly to get it to work. The important thing is to remember to close the command after you have put it in...or your whole post will be bold or in italics...
    <B> BOLD </B>

    <I> Italics</I>

    <FONT COLOR="blue">........</FONT>


    Misc.
    Marni, yikes - 50 cents for Don Q.! Don't let Judy see that! Thanks for trying though!

    And thanks for checking the Dore illustrations for the "uniforms." How does your text refer to them? Raffel calls them "policemen." What does Spanish say, Amparo? How does Grossman translate it?

    Hats, you are referring to the "canon" - Raffel calls him the "cathedral priest" - I looked this up and see that the meaning is the same:
    "Originally, a canon was a cleric living with others in a clergyhouse or, later, in one of the houses within the precinct or close of a cathedral and ordering his life according to the orders or rules of the church."
    Canon/Cathedral priest

    Back this evening, I hope. Can see light at the end of the tunnel - Revealing things being said in this dialog between the cathedral priest, (the canon) and the village priest. I agree, Hats, the canon is sort a puppet for Cervantes. More on puppets later!

    Have a peaceful Sunday, everyone!

    croomet
    June 25, 2006 - 12:03 pm
    Amparo - Brazilians have this amazing tradition of "joga bonito" (play beautifully). It's their game, the beautiful game. They have more world championships under their collective belts than any other country in the world. This year, their team has so many stars, including Ronaldo (el fenómeno, the boy wonder), Roberto Carlos, Ronaldinho (successor of Pelé), that Nike became their exclusive sponsor. You can´t go anywhere in the US without seeing ads for "joga bonito" featuring one, two, three or more Brazilian players -- although sometimes the Nike ads feature soccer stars from other countries. I´m surprised you haven´t seen the ads when you watched the socceroos in the land down under.

    Next time you watch the Brazilians play, look for Ronaldinho. He´s the kid with the long hair and goofy smile having an absolute blast as he plays the beautiful game. Joga bonito! Celia

    Traude S
    June 25, 2006 - 12:56 pm
    AMPARO and CELIA, a quick lingustic question for you.

    In our Spanish classes in Germany in high school - a hundred years ago it seems - we were taught that the "c" before the vowels "i" and "e", in words like "Rocinante", for example, is properly pronounced like the English "th" in words like "Rocinante".

    When I came to this country years later, I found that people from Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America have no such cardinal rule.

    croomet
    June 25, 2006 - 01:20 pm
    Hats - since the invention of printing, the Church had been warning about the perils of reading certain type of literature. Censoring and condemnation were commonplace. What type of literature was suspect? Literature which lacked verisimilitude and did not teach anything, such as the books that caused DQ´s brain to fry, and were burned by the priest.

    You are right, that the cannon speaks for a certain view of literature. I´m not fully convinced he speaks Cervantes´mind, but he certainly speaks the point of view of his time, as to what was considered good literature then.

    Gumtree -- I also rooted for the Socceroos when they played. They played with guts!

    Amparo -- I forgot to mention that "joga bonito" is Portuguese (a Brazilian expression), but I guess you know by now.

    croomet
    June 25, 2006 - 01:28 pm
    Traude -- Different Spanish speaking countries have varied pronunciation, along with different names for foods, dishes, plants and bodily functions . I can teel someone from Perú, Puerto Rico and Argentina by the way they speak. Hey, I can almost tell someone from Australia, the US and Great Britain by the way they speak! Even within Spain, people raised in different areas vary their pronuntiation slightly.

    Your teacher was correct -- but for certain areas of Spain only (is that right Amparo? Can you tell us which areas?). This differentiation between "c" and "s" before "i" and "e" is royally ignored in Central and South America and the Spanish Caribbean. Celia

    Joan Pearson
    June 25, 2006 - 06:10 pm
    I'm stunned. I won't open my mouth, but I just read ahead to the end of Volume I and wasn't ready for what I found in the last chapter. I promise not to open my mouth. Our Don is in captivity and we must see him safely home before we can go on.

    I also just typed my post and dropped the book on the keyboard...and the whole post disappeared in a flash. Not a great evening. The upside of this - post will be brief, more concise and to the point. I hope. I do want to thank you all for the insights you bring here every day.

    To address just a few things that caught my attention before we continue the dialog between the two priests in the next chapter. I'd appreciate your input.
    ,br> Remember that trunk at the inn? The one that contained the story you all hated, "the Nosey Impertinent," in which Anselmo tested his wife and his friend? In this chapter, the innkeeper pulls out more stories from the trunk. Because he cannot read, he gives them to the priest. This caught my eye ~
    "...the first was entitled Rinconete and Cortadillo and was apparently a story of some sort, and since the Man Who Couldn't Keep from Prying had been good, perhaps this would be too, for it was possible they were all by the same author...
    I have a footnote in the Raffel translation..."One of Cervantes Novelas ejemplares [Model Tales], published in 1613." Does Grossman have anything to say about this? Do you suppose that Cervantes did write the story of Anselmo?

    Another thing that I found amusing was the promise of holy matrimony with Dulcinea...even little cubs one day. You'd think this would have got some reaction from the knight. Is that more than he wishes from his Dulcinea? We see no negative reaction from him. Does he really see himself as a young swain with all such possibilities open to him?

    The canon priest, aka the cathedral priest is somewhat more learned than the village priest in that his duties at the cathedral include study of Church law, canon law, clerical appointments - ultimately responsible for the naming of bishops, etc. It was interesting and amusing to me that the village priest was so familiar with the content of the very books he burned a while back. Now we hear the cathedral priest: "I myself hold this so-called books of chivalry to be a danger to our country, and though I have read at least the first pages of almost all that have been published, impelled by an idle and treacherous whim..."

    Thunder, lightning...must run. Celia, did you see the html code in previous post to get you started on italics, bold and color in your posts?
    Talk later@ Enjoy the rest of Sunday!

    croomet
    June 25, 2006 - 06:56 pm
    Joan -- I´m not a techie and the html codes you sent seemed complicated enough that it would slow me down considerably. I´m still trying to get used to this web format and it´s not easy. For example, I can´t quote from other posts, which helps a lot when you make reference to another post. Etc. So I´ll forgo the prettiness for now, until and if I ever get the hang of this format.

    As to the promise of holy matrimony with Dulcinea. It caught your attention, did you think perhaps he didn´t want to be wedded to Dulcinea one day? It seems to me this was part of his ideal, to achieve enough renown through feats of valor so as to deserve requesting her hand in marriage in the future. Celia

    1amparo
    June 25, 2006 - 07:30 pm
    In Spanish when you hear someone pronounce “c” as “th” straightaway one would know that the speaker speak “castellano” = the equivalent of Oxford English and as all languages spoken correctly: beautiful! Sorry if I sound snobbish.

    Celia I thought about joga being Portuguese, a language I could never master.

    Rodaldinho belongs to Barcelona Football Club El Barça as it is known in Spanish. And since I, until two years ago, I was living six months here in Oz and six in Valencia, Oh boy! Do I know about THEM! LOL

    JoanP a Canonigo represent a group of priests or clergies from an area or institution and as such would have a bit more “weight” than just one priest. Cervantes did write "Rinconete y Cortadillo", therefore wrote himself into Don Quixote's book.

    Am off to a meeting. CUL.

    Amparo

    marni0308
    June 25, 2006 - 07:51 pm
    We were rooting for the Netherlands today because of my husband's Dutch heritage and our Dutch last name. The team, however, was a disappointment. Portugal deserved to win. Wow, what a weird game, though. Apparently, it set all sorts of World Cup records. Two men from each team were red-carded and kicked out of the game (and the next game for Portugal.) I think I'll check out the Spain/France game tomorrow since we're reading about Spain.

    JoanP: The term "canon" is used in my edition, also. The police are called "troopers."

    I read ahead, too, and noticed that Cervantes also wrote plays.

    croomet
    June 25, 2006 - 09:10 pm
    Joan -- Your question: do you suppose that Cervantes did write the story of Anselmo?

    My question: Does that mean that you actually doubt the fictitiousness of the story -- and entertain the idea that a manuscript written by someone else was actually found by the author and included in the book? Celia

    gumtree
    June 25, 2006 - 11:26 pm
    Such interest is amazing -

    JoanP - you say you'll be surprised if the Aussies go on - so will we! The real surprise was that they made the finals at all (first time in 32 years) and then went on to qualify for the Round of 16. This World Cup seems to be a rite of passage for the Socceroos. Now they're mixing it with the big boys.

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 01:35 am
    JoanP writes,"Do you suppose that Cervantes did write the story of Anselmo?"

    I think that would just add to the excitement of this journey.

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 02:31 am
    This caught my eye ~

    "...the first was entitled Rinconete and Cortadillo and was apparently a story of some sort, and since the Man Who Couldn't Keep from Prying had been good, perhaps this would be too, for it was possible they were all by the same author..."(JoanP)

    I missed it!! I had to run and get my book. Wow!

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 03:41 am
    It is like in the famous painting by Velaquez "The Meninas" where he, Velaquez, himself is included in the picture. Did Cervantes started the 'fashion'?, that I don't know.

    JoanP

    In chapter XLV, near the end DQ says: "Venid acá, ladrones en cuadrilla, que no cuadrilleros, salteadores de camino con licencia de la Santa Hermandad...

    "cuadrilleros" = gang/team/mates/crew/patrol/troopers. But DQ has called them "ladrones en cuadrilla" = gang of thieves (with the blessing of the Holy Brotherhood).

    Amparo

    Mippy
    June 26, 2006 - 03:51 am
    Good Morning ~
    posting to let you fellow travelers know I'm still following along ... and enjoying the pronunciation lessons and your repartee on world soccer ...
    Are we moving into the next chapters, along the trail? Shall I jog up the trail to ask whether we have seen DQ released from the cage? I've tried not to read ahead of the pack. Is it my lazy mule?

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 03:55 am
    In just few hours time, keep fingers crossed Harry Kewell will play with his team. And all Australian will be singing: CAME ON AUSSIE CAME ON!, CAME ON!!!!!

    Adelaide Cricket Grounds ready for people to gather to wath on big screen. Temperature a cold 7c. Bbrrrr.

    And with soooo many Italians here in Adelaide... they are saying they going to win! Whichever team makes it!

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 04:29 am
    When Cervantes has DQ calling;- "gang of thieves, and not patrol, with the blessing of the Holy Brotherhood" , have in mind Cervantes had been excommunicated three times while doing his duty as tax collector: the church not being exempted from taxes. On the three occasions and under appeal the church reversed its rule.

    Cervantes had to get that out of his chest, sort of speak.

    Amparo

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 04:40 am
    Hi Amparo, you are just full of wonderful surprises. Yes, the artist, Velaquez. Cervantes was excommunitcated threetimes??? Oh, now I see the church reversed the order. He could have written an exciting autobiography.

    Is this the painting, Amparo?

    Meninas

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 04:45 am
    O Lord! I have even eat one of Velazquez "Z" on my previous posts.LOL

    I am for ever "eating" "s" on most plural things, even when not hungry. So there you are ! LOL

    Yes that's the one. you can see Velazquez on the left with his paint and brushes.

    It is a very beautiful painting. I love to see it whenever I go to Madrid.

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 04:46 am
    That proves I need a cup of coffee. My mind is in the hills or maybe just back in bed.

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 05:24 am
    It is a beautiful painting.

    Joan Pearson
    June 26, 2006 - 06:26 am
    Good morning! You've been busy in here, while I slept!

    That is a familiar painting, Hats - thanks, for bringing it to us this morning. It reminds me of others I've seen (not in Madrid, though someday soon I hope to visit) - but in Italy, Venice, Florence there are a number of early paintings in which the artist paints either himself, or his patron into the scene somewhere. But I can't think of any early literature in which the author places himself. Don Quixote is said to be the first novel...so perhaps this is a first for literature.

    Celia, it sounds as if we need to coach you to "copy" and "paste" before you learn the html code - Are you working with a computer mouse or a touch pad? If a mouse, can you press both the right and left sides? More to come, depending on your answer to this question.

    I never got the feeling that Don Quixote had fantasies about marital life, including babies. I thought he dreamed of impressing the beautiful princess who would see fit to reward him by choosing him over all others. Sort of like a pre-adolescent girl dreams of the prince who will carry her away - but never thinks about the "act." I also felt that Sancho dreamed with him of governing an exotic island with a beautiful princess at his side - no thought about his present wife and children...

    Marni...Thanks for "troopers! They'd be rooting for Spain too! Go SPAIN! Gum, I'm rooting for your "socceroos" - sounds as if you call the game "soccer"? My Bruce just said he'd like to go to a bar where the Aussies are watching the game - because "they know how to party - and they don't get violent like the English."

    Coffee...

    Joan Pearson
    June 26, 2006 - 06:30 am
    I loved hearing the Spanish translation, Amparo - "ladrones en cuadrilla" - Cervantes himself refers to the "troopers" as a "gang of thieves (with the blessing of the Holy Brotherhood)!!! See what we would have missed without your input: His readers at the time would have been smiling at that!

    Amparo, did you think Cervantes wrote the Anselmo story from the way this is worded in Spanish?
    ~ Celia, I seem to remember that the Nosey Impertinent, Anselmo's story came from another source back when we read it and that Cervantes had threaded it into his story to make a point. Maybe Cervantes wanted us to believe that. Maybe I "mis-remembered" - is there such a word?

    Thanks for the help on the "Canonigo" - and his "added weight" will keep this in mind as the conversation continues in Chapter 48...Hats - doesn't the "Canonigo" sound so much like Cervantes when he explains why he decided against continuing his book on chivalry?

    (I'm feeling a question forming - on the difference between these earlier stories of chivalry...and Cervantes' "first novel"...) Mippy, yes, please do move on - in all haste! Take my mule, it's faster than yours! I'm concerned about the bound and caged knight too! How long can he remain in this position - without making big or even little water?

    Mippy
    June 26, 2006 - 07:20 am
    Oh, great! what's your mule's name? Thanks for exchanging dog news!
    I named my old slow one Rufus. He can carry the baggage and the wine, when I move up ... and onwards!

    I'm feeling a question forming, you say? I'll look in later ...

    marni0308
    June 26, 2006 - 07:32 am
    Someone mentioned Madrid and it reminded me of something. My son's roommate from Boston College got married in Barcelona two years ago, so my son and his friend went to Spain to the wedding. They had to stop over in Madrid so they roamed around a bit to see some of the city. They went to what they thought was a bar to have a drink. It turned out to be a brothel!

    Time to go check out the soccer!

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 09:10 am
    JoanP,yes it does sound like Cervantes. I think everybody is leaving. So, I must hurry away too. I had a question about a word in chapter 46 or chapter 47. I will go look for it.

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 09:28 am
    The name "Zororaster" is mentioned. I have seen this name somewhere. I could google it. I don't like to google too much. I don't want to come up with the wrong information.

    While in the cage Don Q says "Despite this, virtue is so powerful that through its own efforts, despite all the necromancy e'er invented by Zoroaster, it shall emerge victorious...."

    Who is Zoroaster? Is he Spanish? If I knew what "necromancy" meant, it might help too.

    Then, this question might seem silly. I have never seen the word "pregnant" used in this way. The barber is speaking to Sancho. "It was an unlucky day for you when he made you pregnant with his promises...."

    Sancho replies. "I'm not pregnant by anybody." The use of "pregnant" in this way made me laugh.

    This question might have been answered. Why does the Barber seem to have such importance or status? Is it just because he lived in the same community with the Don. His words seem to carry as much weight as the priest's words.

    Don Q says one of the enchanters smells like "ambergris." What is it?

    One more question. Don Q speaks about "gymnosophists" of Ethiopia. What does this big word mean?

    gumtree
    June 26, 2006 - 10:55 am
    Well, we didn't expect miracles. Watch out next time around.

    croomet
    June 26, 2006 - 12:21 pm
    Gumtree -- It seemed an unfair call on the part of the referee. I watched the game and the Australian player was down already when the Italian player came running. He even tried to move his leg out of the way -- at least that's what I saw. Better referee next time! Celia

    croomet
    June 26, 2006 - 12:37 pm
    Hats -- I agree with you, as we trudge along we find difficult words. I find it comforting to know that the vocabulary Cervantes used to write his masterpiece is very rich. It has been tabulated at no less than 12,000. Celia

    croomet
    June 26, 2006 - 01:02 pm
    <<~ Celia, I seem to remember that the Nosey Impertinent, Anselmo's story came from another source back when we read it and that Cervantes had threaded it into his story to make a point. Maybe Cervantes wanted us to believe that. Maybe I "mis-remembered" - is there such a word? >>

    You may be right, I didn't read the first 45 chapters. It's possible that Cervantes may have picked up the story from other sources; it would be nice to know for sure. But it's important to remember that the author of the book (Cervantes) is not the same as the narrator of the story (of which there are three that I vaguely remember from my youth). Celia

    croomet
    June 26, 2006 - 01:05 pm
    Joan ~ << Celia, it sounds as if we need to coach you to "copy" and "paste" before you learn the html code - Are you working with a computer mouse or a touch pad? If a mouse, can you press both the right and left sides? More to come, depending on your answer to this question. >>

    Thank you for the tip, I'm trying to copypaste right now. I have a touch pad. Celia

    judywolfs
    June 26, 2006 - 02:18 pm
    Oh ha ha ha, re Joan’s “yikes - 50 cents for Don Q.! Don't let Judy see that!” I had to invest more than $3 for DQ’s overdue library fines!!! I'm catching up again though....

    A Canon is, I think, the Church's official body of law and regulation – so the Cannonist would be very similar to a lawyer - at least a highly educated specialist/ expert on church law.

    Wow, this discussion is getting lively! Nice to see a new, enthusiastic "face" here with us! ~Judy

    Mippy
    June 26, 2006 - 02:23 pm
    Hats ~ You had a question, so here's a link:
    Zoroaster

    In brief, he lived in c.628 B.C.– c.551 B.C., and was a religious teacher and prophet of ancient Persia, founder of Zoroastrianism. Zoroaster, the name by which he is ordinarily known, is derived from the Greek form of Zarathushtra (or Zarathustra)

    Well done, Judy. I'd looked up canon and found canon law, but could not figure it out as you did. Thanks!

    hats
    June 26, 2006 - 02:25 pm
    Mippy, thank you.

    Traude S
    June 26, 2006 - 06:45 pm
    HATS, here's a hint that GINNY shared a while ago: if there's any word, name or term you are not familiar with, type it into Google and add the word "definition". Works every time.
    I for one welcomed that piece of news because until then I had depended solely on my trusted big Random House dictionary, which is another room and weighs a ton. Googling is certainly faster, and there's nothing to lift.

    GUM, I watched the Australia-Italy match for about 40 minutes this morning. The Australians looked good to me. When I had to go, neither team had scored a goal. Later I read about the Italians' last-minute win. Some analysts seemed incredulous.

    CELIA and AMPARO, thank you both for confirming what I knew and remembered about the pronunciation of some Spanish words. I appreciate your responses.

    JOAN P, I saw the news report about the flooding in the Washington area, and elsewhere on the East Coast, and hope you and DEEMS are on dry ground in Virginia and Maryland, respectively.

    Still hobbling along.

    JoanK
    June 26, 2006 - 07:38 pm
    TRAUDE: our Washington area often makes the news, but not often for flooding. I'm on dry ground, but having trouble staying on the computer. Every time I sign on, it starts to thunder, and I have to get off! Deems and JoanP seem to be doing better than me. If you don't see me for awhile, that's why.

    If you like to see painters painting themselves into their paintings, join us in the Rembrandt discussion. He's always popping up in his pictures, like an elf. GUMTREE has already found her way over.

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 07:52 pm
    When using the "definition" of some words used in Cervantes, we have to have in mind the times. Judy's definition of today's Canon is perfect.

    Here is what Spanish RAE has to say for Cervantes "Canonigo":

    "reglar, o ~ regular.

    1. m. El perteneciente a cabildo que observa vida conventual, siguiendo generalmente la regla de San Agustín, como en la Orden Premonstratense y en las colegiatas de Covadonga y Roncesvalles.
    "

    Socceroos I thought both teams were fighting like GLADIATORS!

    JoanP. Yes I do believe Cervantes wrote the story of Anselmo. having in mind Cervantes lived few years in Italy, it is possible he heard from someone if not seeing firsthand, such craziness. And Cervantes decided to have a break from DQ in Spain and so gave us that narrative. And let us face it: life, at times, can be stranger than fiction! Don't you agree?

    It is only because there are documents testifying to the veracity of Cervantes times in captivity and his four escape atempts; two by land and two by sea, that we know they did in fact happened. Especially when every time Cervantes accused himself as the mastermind of the atempts. It is pure and simple miracle he was not killed by his temerity each time and as such hard to believe.

    Amparo

    1amparo
    June 26, 2006 - 08:08 pm
    But the beauty of Cervantes writing was and is that anyone able to read would understand Cervantes without need of dictionaries.

    Well, having said that... Sancho's lingo would need someone from la Mancha area to capture his down to earth language!

    Joan Pearson
    June 26, 2006 - 08:25 pm
    So sorry about the Socceroos, fans! It was a great run while it lasted. I guess we'll turn our loyalties to Spain over France tomorrow?

    Oh, the rain is coming down - no signs of stoppage in the near future. When we get so much rain in such a short period, the basement springs leaks...that's what's happening now. Thanks for your concern, Traudee. JoanK, I do notice slowness in loading pages. Can that be due to the rain? When it thunders, I turn the computer off. (So glad you are high and dry. Have you looked in your basement lately?)

    Judy, thanks for presenting the legal interests of the canons. Am keeping this in mind when reading his views on censureship. This canon seems to find the "rules of art" missing in the literature of the day - both in both drama and stories with invented plots AND those based on historical events. The "classical unities?" He seem to object to fantasy - thinks drama is supposed to mirror the human experience. I guess the censors get to work burning the books that don't mirror approved human behavior?

    Where is Cervantes on this issue? Does he respect the classical unities? Mippy, my question is still in the formative stage with regard to the literature of his day and what Cervantes will dish up in Volume II. Celia, we've only met the author and the narrator so far. Maybe we'll pick up a third narrator in Volume II.

    Mippy has gone ahead to see how our bound knight is faring...it's about time for both "big and little water" no? (Mippy, you don't name mules, only horses! Ask Sancho!) Amparo, I'm loving this - the exact translations of the "earthy" language we'd be missing otherwise.. Celia mentioned a few days ago how the earthy comments all come from Sancho, not the proper knight. HOWEVER, I've come across one instance where I literally gasped out loud. I think it's in the next chapter or so. Will hold on until we get there and then ask you for the Spanish. It was quite distracting though.

    Time for bed...to dream of Noah, perhaps.

    croomet
    June 26, 2006 - 08:33 pm
    Joan -- "I never got the feeling that Don Quixote had fantasied about marital life, including babies. I thought he dreamed of impressing the beautiful princess who would see fit to reward him by choosing him over all others. Sort of like a pre-adolescent girl dreams of the prince who will carry her away -- but never thinks about the "act."

    Celia -- I agree with you here. DQ did not see himself as a "domesticated" man but rather and adventurous and courageous knigth, a savior of the poor, the oppressed, the unjustly wronged, and of damsels in distress. At the same time, he had a lofty sense of virtue and a strict code of honor, therefore we cannot imagine his intentions toward Dulcinea del Toboso to be anything but honorable.

    So perhaps we should look to the heroes of his obsessions, the knights errant of yore, to see how DQ's fantasies were fed.

    His favorite heroe, Amadis de Gaula, did in the end consort with his princess, (just checked that) and in subsequent books have offspring. The Amadis is the prototype of the genre (chivalry books).

    So it would not be far fetched to think that DQ's fantasy included wedding his Dulcinea,of course only after many notable feats.

    I also find that, in my opinion, the prophecy is made in terms that would be very attractive to our deluded hero:

    "O Knight of the Rueful Countenance, let not this captivity in which thou art placed afflict thee, for this must needs be, for the more speedy accomplishment of the adventure in which thy great heart has engaged thee; the which shall be accomplished when the raging Manchegan lion and the white Tobosan dove shall be linked together, having first humbled their haughty necks to the gentle yoke of matrimony. And from this marvellous union shall come forth to the light of the world brave whelps that shall rival the ravening claws of their valiant father"

    I think it would be appealing for DQ to know he is called a "raging lion" and his offspring "brave whelps...to rival their valiant father." It feeds right into his fantasy and his sense of who he is. Celia

    marni0308
    June 26, 2006 - 09:16 pm
    It's non-stop rain up here in the Hartford, CT area, too. It's so depressing. At least it's not flooding. Yet. When will it stop???? I went shopping today just to cheer myself up. Uh, oh.

    I watched the Aus/Italy soccer, too. The whole game. It was really something. Too bad about the direct penalty kick in just the last couple of seconds of the game. Per the narrators, it didn't look like a penalty should have been called. Then again, they said the Italian player shouldn't have been red-carded and kicked out. It was very exciting. I can see why the whole world is into soccer.

    Re: "It was an unlucky day for you when he made you pregnant with his promises...." Sancho replies. "I'm not pregnant by anybody." This cracked me up.

    We're almost done with Part I!

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 02:12 am
    Traude, thank you for the hint from you and Ginny. My dictionary weights a ton too. I have a weakness in my left arm. I am not able to drag it along with me.

    I have to go back and read the other posts now. I wanted to quickly say thank you to Traude.

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 02:55 am
    JoanP, I am sorry to hear about all the rain and flooded areas. How is Maryal doing through all this rain? Doesn't Maryal live in the Washington area? That area received lots and lots of rain too. I hope she isn't flooded out.

    Marni, I cracked up too! I really laughed all over myself about the "pregnant" statement. I never heard the word used in that way.

    I am sorry about the Soccer penalty too.

    I haven't read chapter forty eight yet. I can't wait to read Part II.

    Celia, I agree. Cervantes writing is "very rich." I love it!! I find it very hard to put down. It's amazing to be reading the first major novel.

    I really got carried away with my wordsmithing. The spelling of some words is pretty. I can't imagine how the words must sound in Spanish.

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 03:06 am
    Oh, I see where JoanK says Deems is doing alright.

    Judy thank you. I reposted your answer. I want to reread it.

    "A Canon is, I think, the Church's official body of law and regulation – so the Cannonist would be very similar to a lawyer - at least a highly educated specialist/ expert on church law."

    Traude S
    June 27, 2006 - 08:24 am
    You are very welcome, HATS.

    BTW, the Anglican Church, and by extension the Episcopal Church of America, also relies on Canon Law.

    I'm reading as fast as I can...

    JoanK
    June 27, 2006 - 10:24 am
    JOANP: as of yesterday we only had a small puddle where a door hadn't been tightly closed. Haven't checked today, but we're on a hill, and don't usually get flooding.

    Onward to the end of Part I. I don't care if you don't name mules. Mine has a name -- JoanK.

    judywolfs
    June 27, 2006 - 11:56 am
    It was probably in about 1948 that my mother (who was eccentric but quite brilliant) taught us:

    1. all donkeys are named Jack.

    2. all burros are named Jenny

    3. all mules are named Sal.

    So I don't need to worry about what to call my plodding old mule. ~Judy - p.s. I've got the book back, and am steadily coming around the bend towards catching up (again) with y'all.

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 12:04 pm
    1. Why does the village priest think those writing books of chivalry ought to be censured? What are the "rules of art" the cathedral priest sees missing in the plays of the day?

    There are many important ideas voiced by the canon and the priest about literature and plays in chapter forty-eight. I think the priest is very interested in the arts sticking to the truth, not veering to the left or right with creative licence. The priest mentions Cicero's views as an example. The plays should have an "image of truth."

    What made me giggle is the fact that the priest doesn't believe a play should try to have a setting in more than one place. The priest is really shocked that a play should take "place in all four corners of the globe."

    What would the priest think of our cinemas and our plays today? He would think the whole world had gone bonkers. Then again, he might sneakily enjoy the new invention.

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 12:06 pm
    Hi Judy, I love JoanK's idea of naming her mule. You have listed three names. I have to figure out is my mount a mule or a donkey? Is a donkey faster than a mule? Judy, your mother must have been a funny lady.

    Joan Pearson
    June 27, 2006 - 01:02 pm
    The rain continues...big angry clouds form, the wind starts. a downpour, thunder, lighting, a lull and then the whole thing begins again. I just heard that tomorrow the Potomac River should overflow its banks. That will really shut down this city!

    I've heard from Maryal, Hats - she's occupied with family matters, not the storm mop up. Actually, that was three days ago. I hope she's as dry as you are, JoanK! Marni, I agree, it is depressing - and frightening too.
    Celia, That information on Amadis de Gaula is invaluable. So, Don Quixote's hero did find his princess and they had offspring. That is something the knight would like to emulate then! Thank you! Will Dulcinea see fit to accept the love of the aging knight? You have to reach Chapter 52 to learn the answer!

    Marni, yes, we are nearly finished with Volume I. Are you? Where are you, Traudee? Can you believe it? Cervantes seems to be winding up his tale now - trying to make his point about the books of his day ..and the fickleness of women before bringing the poor knight home. I get the feeling that he intends to write no more than these pages we have read...just like the canon priest who decided after 100 pages, he'd had enough trying to avoid the censors.

    Hats, what a funny thought - the priest secretly enjoying today's novels - which break all the classical rules of unity. The village priest thinks that literature should be closely inspected before it is published - the canon thinks the same should be done with drama. He tells of actors who have had to run out of the theater and hide because the lines have slandered the king or dishonored some noble family. This could have been avoided if the work had been inspected. Somewhere in these pages was the wry remark that nothing would have passed inspection, except perhaps those that followed the rules exactly. But no one would read these books except the very learned. This was the reason the canon decided not to go on with his own book...

    JoanK, I'll bite, what did you name your mule? Judy your dear mother has solved the name problem. Where's Mippy - she took my Sally on the trail to check on our Don Q. and never made it back! We need to hear what he thinks of the books of chivalry. Or do we already know that?

    Some facts about mules as we hunt for Mippy!
    "In Medieval Europe, when horses were bred large to carry armored knights, mules were the preferred riding animal of gentlemen and clergy. In 1495, Christopher Columbus brought four jacks and two jennies to the New World. They would produce mules for the conquistadores' expeditions onto the American mainland. .. Female mules were preferred as riding animals, whereas the males were used as pack animals along the trails that tied the Spanish Empire together." Mules/Donkeys

    Difference between a donkey and a mule...and an ass
    Spain-1 France-1 ole ole ole ole, ole ole!

    hats
    June 27, 2006 - 02:07 pm
    I am going to try and catch up with Mippy. She might have ended up on the beginning of Part II. I am anxious to get on that road.

    judywolfs
    June 27, 2006 - 02:13 pm
    What an amazing link about those donkeys & mules! Good golly, looks like my mother was right. It appears that there are horses, of course. And there are donkeys, which can also be known as burros. BUT only way you can get a mule is if a horse mates with a donkey! My gosh, who knew? Come to think of it, maybe my mother was mistaken - maybe every Donkey should be named Oatey. Get it? Donkey Oatey. ummm....... sorry....

    ~JudyS

    Mippy
    June 27, 2006 - 02:16 pm
    I'm here. Nowhere to hide in this tough bunch! Announcing: Book I, fini!
    I was finding time for reading instead of posting (as house guests are still here) and finished a
    first reading, but really have to go back to review details.

    croomet
    June 27, 2006 - 03:10 pm
    Marni: correction, the Argentina-Germany game will be played Friday June 29, and not July 4th as I posted earlier. Sorry for the gaffe. Celia

    croomet
    June 27, 2006 - 03:39 pm
    Hats -- You picked up on a very important theme here, and I quote from your post:

    "There are many important ideas voiced by the canon and the priest about literature and plays in chapter forty-eight. I think the priest is very interested in the arts sticking to the truth, not veering to the left or right with creative licence. The priest mentions Cicero's views as an example. The plays should have an "image of truth." What made me giggle is the fact that the priest doesn't believe a play should try to have a setting in more than one place. The priest is really shocked that a play should take "place in all four corners of the globe."

    The learned people of the time of Cervantes (mainly clergy) believed in the classics, and the rules of classic theatre according to Aristotle were: unity of time (the play should take place within 24 hours); unity of action (only one main plot, no subplots); and unity of place (no change of venue). This gave theatre "verisimilitude," a very important concept for the classics. The canon deplores the lack of it in the chivalry books. Later on, during Spain´s Golden Age, Lope de Vega will mock those rules and violate them with relish Celia

    hegeso
    June 27, 2006 - 06:06 pm
    I am so sorry to break in, being so much behind because of an long illness. I am only at post 654, but I have something to say. I understand the parallel between Hamlet and the Don, but up to the number given above, nobody has mentioned Pirandello's "Enrico IV". Was the Italian aristocrat mad? He admitted close to the end of the play that he might or might not have been that, but finally he chose to remain mad because it was better that way. Wasn't it the same with the Don?

    croomet
    June 27, 2006 - 06:22 pm
    Congrats to those who finished Book I. I'm still on Chapter 47. Where's that nag again? Celia

    1amparo
    June 27, 2006 - 07:23 pm
    You will have to wait till the end of book 2 to find out.

    Cheers mate.

    Amparo

    Traude S
    June 27, 2006 - 09:46 pm
    Hello HEGESO, dear friend, a pleasure to see you! It's after midnight and I stopped reading for now. Only 30 more pages to read to the end of Part I.
    I lingered longer over the discourses between the canon and the priest about writing in general, writing chivalric novels and their popularity, and about the structure and content of plays because it seems to me that these exchanges represent Cervantes' own thoughts.

    You raise an interesting question regarding Pirandello's tragedy "Enrico IV" which hadn't occurred to me.
    The main character in "Henry IV" loses his mind after falling from his horse during a costume party at carnival time and thinks he is the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV, whom he had impersonated at the ball.
    He regains his sanity after a dozen years but finds the reality (the perfidy of a jealous rival and the loss of the woman he loved) too painful to bear and continues to pretend he's not of sound mind.
    He takes revenge on the rival and the pretense becomes imperative if he is to escape the legal consequences. He must remain Henry IV for the rest of his life.

    The challenge of the play lies in the hero's deliberate renunciation of reality as something too painful to bear.

    marni0308
    June 27, 2006 - 10:14 pm
    Thanks, Celia. Gee, I missed the matches today. Had to visit my parents in New London.

    I've finished Part I except for the poetry. Do you all have poems at the end of Part I? I was getting a bit bogged down in the conversations about literature in the book in this section. Maybe I was tired.

    I'm finding it's fun telling people I'm reading Don Quixote. They tend to look very impressed. I'm impressed!

    Now that JoanP provided info about mules and donkeys, I'm not sure what Sancho was riding on - mule or donkey?

    I love naming animals. I want to name my valiant steed. He needs a name befitting a valiant strong fast horse. Hmmmmmm. Something Spanish, too. Cid? My husband wants me to name him Guido. He wants to name everything Guido. He tells my son we almost named him Guido when he was born.

    I named my labrador (now passed) Wilbur after the pig in Charlotte's Web. I always loved that name for an animal. A woman brought her dog around to patients at my dad's nursing home today when I was there. It was a Brichon Frise named Miles. Miles was quite tiny and had a lot of energy. He certainly cheered up the patients. I love the name my sister-in-law gave to her Himalayan cat - Enid. It's quite appropriate.

    1amparo
    June 27, 2006 - 11:07 pm
    Towards the end of chapter LII Cervantes wrote: "...la mujer de Sancho Panza, ...así como vio a Sancho, lo primero que le preguntó fue que si venía bueno el asno". =

    "Sancho's wife as soon as she saw Sancho, the first thing she asked was if the ass was well."

    Real Academia Española has: asno = burro. Del. Lat. Asinus Spanish - English translate burro as ass

    Oxfordd dictionary has: ass • noun a donkey . — ORIGIN Latin asinus.

    They both agree!

    Amparo

    1amparo
    June 28, 2006 - 12:21 am
    with one 'd' only, please. Gosg you are ninny amparo!

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 02:57 am
    Celia, that is so interesting. I am so glad you told us about the "unity of time" and "unity of action." I really enjoyed the conversation between the priest and the canon. I have only finished up to chapter forty eight. I am not up to date on all the posts either. I just want the Don out of that cage. If he would only listen to Sancho. Then, he would know the priest and the barber are masquerading and not enchanters. This is your quote below, Celia.

    "The learned people of the time of Cervantes (mainly clergy) believed in the classics, and the rules of classic theatre according to Aristotle were: unity of time (the play should take place within 24 hours); unity of action (only one main plot, no subplots); and unity of place (no change of venue). This gave theatre "verisimilitude," a very important concept for the classics. The canon deplores the lack of it in the chivalry books. Later on, during Spain´s Golden Age, Lope de Vega will mock those rules and violate them with relish" Celia

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 03:03 am
    Traude and Hegeso, what I understand is that the play Henry IV is like our novel, Don Quixote. This is because the hero in the play refuses to accept reality. Now that is exciting to know and compare. I don't know anything about that play. Thank you for mentioning it.

    Marni, yes, there are sonnets at the end of my Part I.

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 03:06 am
    Hi Amparo

    1amparo
    June 28, 2006 - 03:13 am
    I can neither type nor spell. May I claim the crown for ninny?

    Daughter just left. After a meal and few glasses of South Australian Cabernet Sauvignon... I better be off to bed.

    Till tomorrow all.

    Amparo

    1amparo
    June 28, 2006 - 03:16 am

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 03:20 am
    "After a meal and few glasses of South Australian Cabernet Sauvignon..."

    Amparo, yummy! What color is South Autralian Cabernet Sauvignon? Is it pink? What a great evening!

    Mippy
    June 28, 2006 - 06:10 am
    Who asked if Henry IV is like DQ? Hats or Traude? I don't see it, does anyone else?
    And did someone suggest Falstaff is like Sancho? I don't ... Falstaff is wiser than the prince, at times.

    Here's a bit of plot synopsis from Spark Notes:
    Henry IV (play initially performed in 1597-1598) has two main plots that intersect
    in a dramatic battle at the end of the play.
    [One] concerns King Henry IV, his son, Prince Harry, and their strained relationship. The second [covers the] rebellion that is being plotted against King Henry by a discontented family of noblemen ... the Percys, who are angry because of King Henry’s refusal to acknowledge his debt to them.
    Does this do anything to help ... or should we just put the comparison aside?

    Sorry, didn't mean to tread on anyone's feet, put the blame on my unruly mule.

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 06:26 am
    Mippy, if you read my post, I haven't read 'Henry IV.' I became intrigued with the post or posts written by others who knew about the play, Henry IV. This poster or posters could see a relationship between Henry IV and Don Quixote. I just became excited by their ideas.

    Don't worry about my toes. My toes have been stamped upon quite often. Usually, the pain disappears quickly. I learn from the experience.

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 06:58 am
    By the way Mippy I am glad you asked the question, seems like a good question.

    Joan Pearson
    June 28, 2006 - 07:30 am
    Good morning, dreamers! Are you seeing light at the end of the tunnel as we near the end of the trail? Geee!

    So many good thoughts here this morning...along with Judy's injection of humor - "Donkey Oatey"! This reminds me that I'm missing Pat H who used to pronounce "Don Quixote" like this, as a youngster, remember that? Marni, Guido might fit an asno but a steed? I vote for Cid!
    Amparo, no, you're not a ninny, a hinny, maybe, but not a ninny!

    Hegeso, welcome back to the fold, my friend. Hopefully you are feeling better as we prepare to move on to the next Volume? Just skip right up to Chapter 52 and you'll be just fine.

    Mippy, Hegeso was referring to Pirandello's play, "Enrico IV" - "The main character in "Henry IV" loses his mind after falling from his horse during a costume party at carnival time and thinks he is the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV, whom he had impersonated at the ball. Thanks for expanding on that, Traudee.
    Hegeso asks - "He admitted close to the end of the play that he might or might not have been that, but finally he chose to remain mad because it was better that way. Wasn't it the same with the Don?"

    After reading chapter 49 and listening to the Don's long discourse...his jumble of fact and fiction, I'm concluding that Don Quixote does not CHOOSE to remain mad because he prefers the life of a knight-errant. I think that he has read so much, that he is truly confusing fact and fiction. I know some people who watch so many soaps they speak about the characters as if they are real people. What's worse, they make some important life decisions based on what they have seen on TV!

    Celia that was very helpful hearing about the classic unities and the concept of "verisimilitude," something the canon finds lacking in the stories of the day. He feels that literature and drama should mirror reality. Would you say that Cervantes agrees with him?

    Traude, like you, I spent a lot of time on the discourse between the canon and the priest. I would love to hear more about how you see their views compare with Cervantes?

    Hats I've been thinking about what you said about Sancho - if only he had listened to him "he would know the priest and the barber are masquerading and not enchanters." If only he'd listen to Sancho he'd have a better grasp on reality? Do you see Sancho as the voice of reason here? Does Sancho see things as they really are? All the time?

    Do you believe as Don Quixote tells the canon, that reading fiction is good for one's psyche? Can there be too much of a good thing?

    Deems
    June 28, 2006 - 08:00 am
    Good morning, all--

    I apologize for my absence. But I'm back now.

    First, Mippy, you may be missing some posts. In order to see more than three or four at a time, go to the top of this page and look in the very top right. You will see a rectangular button that says, "Printer Friendly." Click button. You won't print the page. What you will get is another screen that has many more posts on it. Then you can read back and see any you might have missed.

    I just performed said action and the printer friendly page that comes up gave me messages back to #1154. The page that appears will be in addition to this one. In other words, this one won't go away. You will have two windows.

    The play hegeso mentioned was a modern play Enrico IV (Pirandello) and not Shakespeare's Henry IV. Completely different plot. (message #1269)

    Joan P--About ten years ago, you asked what we had for the men of the Holy Brotherhood. Apparently Raffel has "policemen." Grossman has "officers."

    OK, back to my catch-up reading so I can enter into the current subject of the chapters in the late forties and into the fifties. I am behind.

    ~Maryal

    Mippy
    June 28, 2006 - 08:08 am
    Thanks for helping me turn the mule the right way around, JoanP.
    I spent a couple of minutes googling Pirandello's play, Enrico IV; since Pirandello lived much later than Cervantes, I won't continue this, as I was looking up the completely wrong play, see next post. Thanks Traude.

    In answer to your last query, no, I don't see that there can be any harm in reading too much fiction. I don't thing that is the message Cervantes has for the reader.
    As many of us have said all along, DQ is set up to be insane so that he can criticize the church and state. It was the only safe way to dis the establishment in those years. Cervantes didn't want to be locked up in a cage (prison) himself!

    Maryal, Thanks, but I am not missing any posts. I know about "printer friendly" -- but in the heat of the
    moment, I just posted too fast. In Latin class, we always need printer-friendly.

    Traude S
    June 28, 2006 - 08:14 am
    MIPPY, HEGESO brought up Luigi Pirandello's play and I responded. Please note that Pirandello's King Henry is not the one to whom you referred.

    There were several different kings named Henry IV: one was Henry IV of England, another was Henry IV of France. The one in Pirandello's play was Holy Roman Emperor and German King Heinrich (Henry) IV (1050-1106).

    Dring the Middle Ages the Emperors and the Church struggled for power and supremacy, as has beeb mentioned before. Henry IV's "bête noire" was Pope Gregory VII who excommunicated Henry. The Emperor then traveled over the mountains and pleaded for his release from the papal ban at Canossa, in deep snow, in front of a residence where the pope happened to be.

    The Italian playwright Luigi Pirandello (1867-1936) wrote "Enrico IV" in 1922. The theme of the play is self-delusion and insanity.

    A group of young people organizes an elaborate, meticulously staged masquerade; the hero of the story comes costumed as Henry IV of Canossa fame. A jealous rival causes him to fall from his horse and the hero now imagines himself B> to actually be Henry IV. The family humors him and gives him a retinue.

    A number of years later, the reenactment of that earlier event jolts the hero out of his delusion and he recognizes the betrayal by the rival, who's the lover of the hero's girl. The hero finds that reality too painful to face and continues to pretend that he is still "out of his mind." But he does take revenge on the rival and kills him. Hence the pretense becomes a necessity; he must play Henry IV to the end of his life.

    As I said, the play hinges on the fact that the hero voluntarily and deliberately renounces the new-found reality, and that is the crux of HEGESO's question.

    Traude S
    June 28, 2006 - 08:22 am
    On checking for typos I saw the preceding posts. Sorry about the repetition.

    JOAN P, I'll be back later regarding the discourses.

    MARNI, I read that the Europeans can hardly wait for Friday when the WM, as they call it, continues. WM stands for 'Weltmeisterschaft'. ha ha ha. How's that for multisyllabic words?

    In haste

    hats
    June 28, 2006 - 08:48 am
    JoanP, I do not see Sancho as the voice of reason all of the time. At times, I have wondered about Sancho's ability to think clearly. Perhaps, Sancho and Don Q are good partners because of their abnormal way of looking at life. There are times when Don Q seems clear headed and Sancho seems a bit lost in his thinking.

    I think fiction is wonderful. I do believe facts mixed in with fiction makes the plot more interesting. This is the way fiction is handled, I feel, on Seniornet. Underneath every quality novel there are layers of truth. When fiction is mixed with truth, I believe that is the best in a book.

    marni0308
    June 28, 2006 - 09:43 am
    Traude: The Germans do enjoy their long words! Thanks for the explanation of the various Henry IV's. I had been wondering how many there were.

    I was first introduced to Henry of Navarre, who became Henry IV of France, when I read Dumas' Queen Margot. I absolutely have to read more about him. What a fascinating life. He had to contend with Catherine de Medici for a mother-in-law. Apparently, she tried to poison him. I believe he eventually was murdered. I think his marriage to her daughter Margot, Marguerite de Valois, was annulled.

    Has anyone read anything interesting about Henry IV of France?

    marni0308
    June 28, 2006 - 09:45 am
    Be prepared for some more humorous grossness as Sancho tries to get the Don out of the cage, Hats. Again nature calls. After all, the Don has been in the cage for quite awhile.

    Joan Pearson
    June 28, 2006 - 11:12 am
    Welcome back, Maryal! We've missed you! Gallop ahead and find a nice tree, sit under it and read these last chaptere! I'd offer you my fast mount, but Mippy won't give it back.

    I agree, Traudee...I think the crux of the matter is whether Don Q. knowingly chooses his role as knight, or if his reading has just caused him to go over the edge so he cannot distinguish fact from fiction.

    We had a friend who did very well running his own business. The guy seemed to have everything. To be honest, we didn't know about his day to day dealings and frustrations. But one day, he decided to chuck it all, bought a boat and set off to sail around the world. He never had much of anything after that. Finally married a highly intelligent Brit...the two of the delivered newspapers to make ends meet sometimes. We all thought there was something wrong with him. Maybe there wasn't.

    Mippy, you see Cervantes using the "mad" knight to hide behind in order to escape censorship. Here's the question - does Cervantes really believe his character is mad - or just someone fed up with the world he must live in who makes a deliberate choice to do something totally different?

    Hats, do you see Sancho sane, in touch with reality most of the time...but easily persuaded by the Don and his fantastic tales to see things differently?

    Marni, the call of nature was a good test devised by Sancho to see whether the Don is indeed "enchanted" as he claims. It was quite funny...Don had no idea what Sancho was talking about! Or was he pretending not to know?

    Joan Pearson
    June 28, 2006 - 11:22 am
    When reading the goatherd's comments on the nature of women (and she-goats) in Chapters 50 and 51, I remembered something Traudee wrote earlier referring to Enrico..
    "He regains his sanity after a dozen years but finds the reality (the perfidy of a jealous rival and the loss of the woman he loved)"
    Have you been wondering why Cervantes dwells so much on the fickleness of women? Is he preparing us for the Don's letdown when he and Dulcinea finally do meet, do you suppose...or was he himself hurt in a relationship? Did you think it unusual that we have read so many similar stories? If it isn't important to Cervantes, why would he include one more such story as he ends his tale?

    JoanK
    June 28, 2006 - 05:51 pm
    AMPARO: don't beat yourself up because you can't spell perfectly in English!! It's my native language, and my spelling is much worse that yours. I never post anything without hitting "check spelling" first. It catches my typos as well.

    No one got my joke. My mule is named "JoanK" -- i.e. I'm my own mule. Sigh.

    But it's getting faster -- I've finished Part I. Even the poems. HOORAY!

    I laughed and laughed when they had to let DQ out of the cage. I admit, that's the first thing I thought of when they put him in -- how on earth will he manage?

    I must say, I think Cervantes just got tired of writing the book, and ended it as quickly as he could -- even leaving one of his romances up in the air. Did he intend to come back to it, I wonder? He leaves the door open by referring to a third trip, but seems to close it again with the poems.

    1amparo
    June 28, 2006 - 05:53 pm
    Aahh, JoanP. How right you are!. I am definitely a "hinny": I have known all my life I am stubborn as a "mule" and thick as a "donkey"!, hence I get on quite well with all them.

    Hats, the Australian Cabernet Sauvignon is deep red; fruity and goes down very nicely.

    Cheers.

    Amparo.

    1amparo
    June 28, 2006 - 05:59 pm
    Thanks mate. It is bad at times especially when my eyes and brain tend to wonder different ways and agree to disagree with me the meat in the sandwich, sort of speak and left out in the cold.

    (Any excuse will do. LOL )

    JoanK
    June 28, 2006 - 06:05 pm
    I forgot. PATH said to tell you she's on her mule again and traveling as fast as she can. She should be here soon (if she doesn't keep losing power).

    marni0308
    June 28, 2006 - 08:22 pm
    Re "I think Cervantes just got tired of writing the book, and ended it as quickly as he could - even leaving one of his romances up in the air."

    JoanK: It was weird the way Part I ended. He did leave his story up in the air. He left the Don and Sancho up in the air.

    hegeso
    June 28, 2006 - 08:57 pm
    Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! I cannot make up for my delay caused by illness, so I just pick up from here, and continue to read the Don where I left it. That is the best I can do now, and please, receive my apologies for just posting my associations.

    The one after Enrico IV is Mme Bovary. She, like the Don, was profoundy influenced by the romances she heard, sang, and read, and wanted to become like one of those heroines, as the Don to his heroes. The consequences for her became lethal.

    We are influenced by what we read. I remember a sentence I read in "The Bridge of Saint Louis Rey" by Thornton Wilder, "without reading literature there won't be romantic love".

    Traude, thank you so much for helping me out with the plot of the Pirandello play.

    Joan Pearson
    June 29, 2006 - 05:58 am
    Good morning! I'm still smiling over your donkey's name, "Joankey" ...I did miss that! Good to know PatH is on the road again - we'll be looking for her.

    Hegeso, yes, please, don't exhaust yourself trying to catch up, pull that old mule right up here with ours. Your "associations are more than welcome. I remember reading in Raffel's introduction that Don Quixote is considered to be the first novel on "addiction"...and Emma was certainly addicted to reading romance novels - they affected her approach to life, just as Quixote's reading of the novels of chivalry led him out of his library into the battlefield.

    I'm interested in what you are feeling about the way Cervantes is ending this novel. JoanK feels that he didn't know how to end it. You are referring to Chapter 52, yes? When the Don consents to be taken home to get some rest before he takes up a third expedition? Everything in Chapter 52 indicates that Volume II is in the works. I suspect, do you, that this chapter was written, or at least embellished 10 years later when Cervantes was ready to present the third adventure, but NOT when he was concluding the tales that we have just finished reading.

    IF that was the case, then how did he end Volume I? The story of the goatherd is puzzling to me, appearing suddenly at the end of the story, a chapter before the ending. Marni, I felt he ended that story "up in the air." It seems to dwell on lost love, fickle women.

    This tale pretty much ends the first volume. The Don requests he be taken home in the oxcart cage! He seems defeated in his quest to relive knighthood...unable to help the goatherd remove the damsel from the convent...(to do with as he chooses!)

    I keep returning to the idea that this collection of tales was just that...not a novel as we think of novels, with character development, a denouement, etc. Maybe we are expecting too much from Volume I in this department? If Cervantes realizes this, maybe he DID plan the third adventure as he concluded this volume. Maybe it just took him longer to get it right than he anticipated when he put his pen down. Ten years is a long time for a writer to hold a thought, isn't it? Did he write/publish anything in between the two volumes, I wonder?

    Any thoughts on the significance of the goatherd's story before we move on to the final chapter?

    Deems
    June 29, 2006 - 10:01 am
    I am caught up! Ring the bells, throw the confetti, take the dogs for a walk, throw a steak on the grill. Celebrate. A little early for the 4th of July but what the hay!!

    I don't think Cervantes got tired at all. I think his book had reached a certain length (probably what was popular at the time) and he wrapped everything up. For example, the goatherd's tale reminds us of those earlier goatherds who entertained DQ and Sancho while DQ meditated on the acorns and the golden age. With this story, the hospitality is reversed as the priest, the barber, etc provide a meal for the goatherd who tells them (yet another) tale of unrequited love. (Troubadours used to literally sing for their supper. They would be fed and then provide the entertainment after supper.)

    We're not on the final chapter yet, but again I see a parallel to the beginning of the novel. Very early on, DQ attacked the windmills mistaking them for giants, remember?

    As for whether or not the goatherd's idea of women and his transference of these thoughts to the "best of his flock", I see no reason to assume that Cervantes' views of women are reflected. After all, he has created Marcella and Maritornes and Dorotea, all strong women (in a time when strong women would not have been the norm). I think the women who read this book would have been very moved by these women. Maybe I should have typed "heard this story" since I continue to imagine Don Quixote being read aloud for entertainment in the everning and during bad weather.

    More later.

    ~Maryal

    judywolfs
    June 29, 2006 - 01:09 pm
    Joan, I am SOOOO glad you said this: "I keep returning to the idea that this collection of tales was just that...not a novel as we think of novels, with character development, a denouement, etc. Maybe we are expecting too much from Volume I in this department."

    So far, this has been a very long road for my poor little burro and me; and now I find your observation so very comforting. I just didn't "get it." I was waiting and waiting for everything to get tied together into a single neat bundle.

    I can and do enjoy reading short stories. If ONLY I had approached the whole book with that idea in mind it might have been much more rewarding for me! Ah well. On we go, much invigorated...Thanks. ~JudyS

    Traude S
    June 29, 2006 - 03:40 pm
    Holiday plans and preparations; packed stores; delays. My mule (unnamed) is not quite "there" but close behind the rest of the party.

    A brief rest period would be welcome so that the animals can graze and we can gather our thoughts before we continue on the journey with new vigor (and recharged batteries).
    Moreover, I made a promise to JOAN P to answer a question or two and I mean to keep it.

    Joan Pearson
    June 29, 2006 - 06:50 pm
    None of us are "quite there," Traudee. We could spend years examining all of the facets of this book, and still not see it all! Like James Joyce's Ulysses! We'll begin Volume II, very slowly, with a reread of Chapter 52 and then just the dedication and prologue of Volume II through the weekend. How's that for grazing time?

    hhahaha, Judy, poor little burro...the next time we read Quixote, we'll issue a warning...expect no neat bundles. Separate stories for entertainment at the inn. (Is that what Cervantes intended - stories for entertainment, with little digs here and there at the establishment?)

    Do you think Cervantes is writing for women? I really can't see woman being entertained by the way they are portrayed in the goatherd's story. Granted he does say that papas should allow maidens to choose the boy that pleases for husbands, but then he turns around with the example of the knave Leandra chose when the choice was hers...and the goatherd goes on about the fickleness of females and their lack of good sense. If women were reading this - MAYBE they were laughing while stuck in their prearranged marriages. Or maybe it is the men who are laughing. How many women were reading at this time?

    Judy...since it is Volume II that has earned Quixote the nomer of "the first modern novel," what are you expecting to find different from the individual tales we read (heard) in Volume I?

    Joan Pearson
    June 29, 2006 - 06:53 pm
    Maryal, so glad you have caught up with the pack! Are you implying that since Don Q. mistakes the self-flagellating penitents for kidnappers in the last chapter, just as he mistook the windmills for giants in an early chapter...that there has been no character development after all of these chapters in between? If you are, I'll agree.

    I want to say something here about Don Quixote's language in this chapter (52)...was it you Celia who noted that Don is always correct in his speech while it is Sancho who speaks the "earthy" talk of the peasant. I NEED to hear how you translate the proper knight's language when he lashes out at the goatherd at the start of Chapter 52 for doubting the sincerity of his offer to rescue Leandra from the convent! I've never heard such language from any of the characters in this book - unless my translator, Raffel, has taken great liberties with the Spanish! (It has to do with the goatherd's mother.) Amparo?

    Questions, questions, questions...I find myself walking around thinking of more questions, talking to myself. People are beginning to talk.

    1amparo
    June 29, 2006 - 11:03 pm
    “unless my translator, Raffel, has taken great liberties with the Spanish! (It has to do with the goatherd's mother.) Amparo?”

    You made my day: I am laughing… I can see DQ really mad at the poor goatherd. Oh, the language! When I try to translate I get tears of laughter. OK, here it comes in Spanish, OLD Spanish, and remember the formal “VOS”?? we discussed much earlier? Well, he is using it again addressing the much lower class, the goat keeper, so have it in mind :

    “Soís un grandísimo bellaco – dijo a esta razón don Quijote -, y vos sois el vacío y el menguado; que yo estoy más lleno que jamás lo estuvo la muy hideputa, puta que os parió.” Y diciendo y haciendo, arrebató de un pan que junto a sí tenía, y dio con él al cabrero en todo el rostro, con tanta furia, que le remachó las narices.

    And here is my own translation the (----) mine (if I can stop laughing!):

    “You (thou/ye) are the biggest nitwit – said DQ and you (thou/ye) are the emptiest, lacking, (brainless, stupid, witless); I am much more full (intellectual, brains) than the bastard whore mother of the whore who gave you birth”. And so saying and doing, he grabbed a bread he had nearby and with it gave such a mighty wallop to the goatherds’ face that he flattened his nose.

    Poor grandmother and mother! LOL

    Cheers.

    Amparo

    croomet
    June 30, 2006 - 03:31 am
    Hello everyone, My nag turned out to be a mule after all and we are stuck in Ch. 48. I'm looking forward to joining all of you as soon as we catch up. Didn't realize it would be so hard to forge ahead sometimes. This mule will not listen to reason, or promises of Manchego cheese. I wonder what the problem is. Celia

    hats
    June 30, 2006 - 04:57 am
    Wow!Amparo, I love the translation. My Grossman translation is pretty cool, calm and collected. Thank goodness, you are here. I didn't think the Don had it in him. What a tongue!

    hats
    June 30, 2006 - 06:00 am
    Good morning, JoanP and Maryal, For some reason at the end of Part II, my mind couldn't stop thinking of the Don's mental condition. Since the first part of the journey is now over, I seem more aware of his past thoughts and actions. Both the Don and Sancho have mental problems. I know we have said Cervantes used the Don's madness as a way to get across his personal ideas. Did Cervantes also have something to say about emotional health? In other words, how it was treated during this time?

    As far as women, I am not sure how I feel about that idea yet. I feel upset that women are called "imprudent and irrational."

    Marni, I did notice the Don had certain duties to take care of after getting out of the cage.

    hats
    June 30, 2006 - 06:03 am
    The beginning of Part II is confusing for me. Maybe I have read it too fast. Probably, I need help and might as well ask for it.

    JoanP,you asked me a question a few posts back. I answered it. Maybe it was the wrong answer. I did try to answer it. Now I can't remember the question. I think it was about Sancho.

    judywolfs
    June 30, 2006 - 07:07 am
    Joan's post #1305 almost knocked me right off my chair when I came to the part that said "The NEXT TIME we read Don Quioxite..." And here I am getting my hopes up that I'll be able to keep up with Volume 2!

    More later - what amazing posts there have been lately in this amazing discussion! I'm so glad we've been able to stick together.

    ~JudyS

    hats
    June 30, 2006 - 07:14 am
    Judy, that's the best part sticking together. We should sing a Spanish folksong. Amparo, while we are drinking wine and eating cheese and grazing our mounts, do you know a good song to keep our spirits up?

    hegeso
    June 30, 2006 - 03:21 pm
    Joan P., I am sorry I can't answer your question. I am behind not only with the posts, but also with the book, and am afraid that the whole discussion will be over when I finish the book.

    In the meanwile, just this: I also think it is a collection of stories. It would have been possible to add more or skip some. I don't see a structure, a development, that would facilitate my reading. I also think that to discover and understand what and how the author had in his life and mind while writing it, would take several readings, a thorough study.

    Joan Pearson
    June 30, 2006 - 05:53 pm
    How about we sing Ole, ole, ole, ole, ole, ole, ole into the discussion of Volume II - Or have I been watching too much soccer? - Judy, I was joking about the next time...but you knew that, right?

    Hats, I'm sorry, I missed your answer ... will go check now. I've had two crazy days here. I worked all day and then second son flew in from California and ordered up a dinner of his favorites. Of course his brothers and the little ones came too. They've gone over to eldest son's home to watch a taped soccer match on his big screen tv, so I can work on moving us to our new digs for Volume II.

    Hats, let's watch out and see whether Cervantes has anything specific to say about mental illness - he has presented us with a case study, but I'm not sure how scientific it is.

    Ahahahaaha, Amparo! Thank you SOOO much for the translation! It was the formal "thou" that I would have missed, had you not explained it. Imagine that formal speech as he delivered the comments on Eugenio's mother...and grandmother! Oh, what a riot. Celia, quickly, bring your sluggish mule forward and read chapter 52. You can get mired in Chapter 48. Come have fun in 52 and lets forge ahead! You must read Don Quixote's words to the goatherd!

    I've got a proposal to make to you all, especially you, Hegeso, and all those who had a difficult time on the trail. Leave volume I behind. It was a string of escapades, challenges our delusional knight faced. He's come home in the the same shape as you last saw him. I won't say you didn't miss anything, but the score is still 0-0 and the game is only half over! Hope you will all start out fresh with us in the morning!

    Joan Pearson
    June 30, 2006 - 06:20 pm
    Hats, was the question about Sancho playing the voice of reason to Don Quixote's madness? I'll agree with you when you say you've wondered at Sancho's ability to think clearly. I think he calls things as he sees them, but isn't he easily swayed by Don Quixote's explanations? I don't think there is anything Don Quixote can't explain away so that Sancho will accept. While we are still talking about Volume I tonight, could someone check the translation you are reading and read the quote that introduces chapter 49? - my Raffel has-
    "dealing with Sancho Pancho's perceptive conversation with his master..."
    I'm wondering if this is Cervantes' mistake or the translator. I'm hoping it's Cervantes because I've come to refer to Sancho Panza as "Pancho" myself...not on purpose. I would love to feel this kinship with Cervantes!!!

    patwest
    June 30, 2006 - 05:42 pm
    ---Don Quixote - Volume II ~ Cervantes ~ Great Books

    Joan Pearson
    July 6, 2006 - 12:51 pm
    I sure hope everyone took note of Pat's preceding post on June 30 and found the way to Don Quixote, Volume II

    This discussion will be