Welcome everyone to what I am sure will be a very interesting book discussion.

I look forwards to being your Discussion Leader

Hi, Nellie!

I dug out an old copy of the book and have it ready now. I have to confess I didn't read it, but I did see the movie, which I loved! So it will be fun reading this along with everyone else. See you then!

Lorrie

I did not see the movie but I did read the book many long years ago. I remember the gist of it and the reason for the title being "451." I will try to locate my copy if I still have it but in any event, intend to participate.

Good luck on the Discussion!!

Robby

Hi Lorrie! Hi Robbie! Discussing this book should be a real interesting experience for us all! I look forwards to seeing you both in the discussion.

I have ordered this book from half.com and it should be here shortly. I remember this being a point of discussion long, long ago I should have been paying better attention than doing what I was doing. Might I add that this was in the 60's.

Welcome ALF

Hi Nellie,

I would like to join the discussion. I have heard a lot about Fahrenheit 451, but I have never read it.

Beyond the reviews, etc., could anyone say more about the story, the author, the reception of the book when it was published, anything, really, to help me decide if this would appeal to me. I'm a complete novice in science fiction, did not see the movie and just don't have enough information yet. Anyone?

Betty:--I don't want to say much about the book as it might ruin it for you but I have gotten to know you a bit through Senior Net and have a strong feeling you would find yourself caught up in it and reacting to it.

Robby

As I recall, the movie was faithful to the book. It will be fun to re-read the book, and I'm going to see if the movie is available for rent. Looks like a good group. I'll be here.

I'm glad to have you joining us, HATS! You are in for a treat when you read this book for the first time.

Betty, Fahrenheit 451 is basically a story of one man, who is a fireman in a future time when firemen burn books and only books.

The afterword in my copy tells that the book was written in the typing room in the library at UCLA on one of those typewriters you rented for a dime for half an hour. In between stints of furious typing Bradbury would go upstairs and...

"...There I strolled, lost in love, down the corridors, and through the stacks, touching books, pulling volumes out, turning pages, thrusting volumes back, drowning in all the good stuffs that are the essences of libraries. What a place, don't you agree, to write a novel about burning books in the Future!"

This may sound strange, but I think that only a person who truly loves books could have written this book as well as it is.

Betty, the burning of books aside, you will find that many things in this Future time are surprisingly familiar because they are things that are happening in our own 'now' time, which was the Future in 1953 when the book was published.

For everyone: if you are a novice at reading Science Fiction, this is one of the best books to begin with; while all good Science Fiction books are character driven -if that is the best way to put it-this one has excellent characterization and no strange aliens or otherworldly planets to boggle your mind.

Boy I think it is about time I stopped preaching.

Hi Mrs.Watson! Welcome to our cosy little group...which I hope will grow bigger and bigger After all, it is said "The more the merrier."

You and I were posting at the same time!

Nellie, now, I really want to read the book. I do feel like it will deepen my appreciate for books. Books are so easily gotten that at times, I suppose, it is easy to take their presence for granted.

I am so glad there aren't any other worlds or planets and aliens with strange names.

Yes, HATS, it all takes place right here on this planet but it makes us think about ourselves.

Robby

Hello everyone, I have joined Seniornet for the first time and am thrilled to see the many book clubs working. For Fahrenheit 451 I suggest reading the book before seeing the movie. For me, it didn't capture the poetry or essence of Bradbury's novel, and we found it sort of hokey and pedestrian. Sorry Lorrie, but if you had read the book before you saw the movie, you would probably agree. Perhaps you were a lot younger then.

Welcome Seniornagles to this discussion which will begin soon and to the Books & Lit! Nice to see you joining us

Hi, seniornagles! Welcome!

Yup, I was a lot younger when I first saw the movie, and you may be right---maybe that's why I liked it. That's why I'm looking forward to reading the book for real.

Lorrie

Hi Nellie and Lorrie: Thank you for your welcomes; I suspect I've found my right place on the net. I'm Elizabeth. My husband signed on first as seniornagles (our email tag) to talk about WAR. So I suspect that seniornagles will definitely have a split personality!

Welcome seniorangles. That is comical that we will be reading you with split personalities. I like that. We are delighted that you have joined us here. Nellie leads a great discussion and you will be pleasantly satisfied.

Thanks, Alf.

I'm Baaaack! Is there a new edition of this book, or do I have to haunt the used book stores? I would hate to have to waste time in a used book store if I don't have to (lol)!

No, Mrs. Watson, it is the very same novel we read 40- some years ago.

Hello again Mrs. Watson! B&N has the book available in paperback online, so you don't have to haunt used bookstores -although that is not a bad way to spend some time. I got my copy from B&N.

BabsNH here. I read the book in the 60's also, and saw the movie. Ray Bradbury is the alltime best science fiction writer in my opinion. I think I have read most of what he has written, and read the Martian Chronicles twice. I am looking forward to joining this discussion, if I can. I have only participated in one other discussion here at Seniornet, but enjoyed it immensely. I even learned a lot. I was dissapointed tonight, I thought it was starting June 1, now I have to wait another two weeks. This time I am going to wait to reread when discussion starts. More fun that way.

babs: Welcome! I, too, loved Martian Chronicles, read it more than once. Let's read that one here! What say you, Nellie?

Welcome to the discussion,Babs! Which will have its start in no time at all; those two weeks will just fly by!

The Martian Chronicles...a possibilty yes!

My book is here and I've read 15 fabulous pages. I am very excited about discussing this one.

Hi, Nellie. Just bought the book and I’m glad I did. Just from reading the book’s preface page”in the beginning...” makes me want to read more, more, more. I’m planning on joining in.

Bill H

Hello Nellie, Lorrie, Robby, Alf, Hats, Betty, Mrs. Watson, Dave and Elizabeth, Babs and Bill.Wow! What a sizeable and enthusiastic group to start off with! Please count me in. I've been a science fiction junkie since I was very young--starting with Jules Vern and H G Wells. Ray Bradbury has always been one of my favorites and I am quite possibly the oldest Trekker (sp?) in the world. My book should be here in a couple of days. I'm looking forward to reading it again. Can't remember any longer just how long ago that was.

See you all later, Mary

What a great group! I can't wait, either. Mary, you must remember, as I do, the olden days when the only people you ever saw in the SF section of the library were adolescent boys? Analog and F&SF came every month in the mail? All SF books were paperback?

Bill, glad to have you joining us.

Mary W, welcome to our group, I'm glad to have you with us. Another old Trekkie? I'm one too.

I think we will all enjoy discussing this book. There is some powerful stuff that makes you think in it.

Ha Ha! More trekies. My husband laughs at me when I watch the reruns still.

Nellie: Started the book. Bradbury's writing is powerful, invoking images troubling to the mind. What is a salamander?

My book just arrived and it turned out to be a 40th anniversary edition--1991, I guess. A wonderful bonus is a new foreword b Ray Bradbury. It is stunning in it's revelation of the auther. It gave me a whole newunderstanding of the man. Parts of the writing are most sensitive--almost poetic. When we gegin our discussion if it's pertinent I'll quote some passages.

Reruns? What an inadequate title for something that gives us a second chance to enjoy something we loved the first time. It's like rereading a book we cannot forget..

Take care, Mary

Mrs. Watson, I'll have to do some research on the salamader. I do remember that in magic or alchemy the salamader is a creature of fire. But there is also a real little lizard like animal called a salamander.

Good question.

I've found some information on the magical salamader here:

Bullfinch's Mythology site

(Scroll down to the bottom of the page.) Here is some of what it says there: "The following is from the "Life of Benvenuto Cellini," an Italian artist of the sixteenth century, written by himself: "When I was about five years of age, my father, happening to be in a little room in which they had been washing, and where there was a good fire of oak burning, looked into the flames and saw a little animal resembling a lizard, which could live in the hottest part of that element. Instantly perceiving what it was, he called for my sister and me, and after he had shown us the creature, he gave me a box on the ear. I fell a-crying, while he, soothing me with caresses, spoke these words: 'My dear child, I do not give you that blow for any fault you have committed, but that you may recollect that the little creature you see in the fire is a salamander; such a one as never was beheld before to my knowledge.' So saying he embraced me, and gave me some money.""

and: "It seems unreasonable to doubt a story of which Signor Cellini was both an eye and ear witness. Add to which the authority of numerous sage philosophers, at the head of whom are Aristotle and Pliny, affirms this power of the salamander. According to them, the animal not only resists fire, but extinguishes it, and when he sees the flame charges it as an enemy which he well knows how to vanquish."

Another site about the salamander:

Medieval Salamander lore

This salamander thing is rather interesting to think about...

Is everyone ready for the beginning of the discussion tomorrow?

Fahrenheit 451 begins with these words: "It was a pleasure to burn." and with those words we are introduced to Guy Montag. We also meet Clarisse McClellan and Montag's wife Mildred.

More coming tomorrow...

Yes, Nellie, the scene is set!

I absolutely love the authors use of synonyms for burn thruout this entire book. From the onset, we feel things blackened, singed, dark and blazing as the plot increases and the temperatures rise. Guy begins to suffer lack of air as he smells the "perfume".(kerosene)

I'm here. Another plus is the author's subtly setting up of Montag (Is that a pun? Montag is a rival of Crane in the fine stationary business!) and his increasing isolation. The "dog", the addicted wife, the inner reflection without verbalization, and his increasing attachment to Clarisse. Masterful.

Hi, Nellie, When I started reading “....451,” it reminded me of Clive Barker’s novels, he of the of conjured up other world fantasies. Clive’s novels prepared me for what R. Bradbury was offering up, and made “Fahrenheit’s” horror, (burning the old woman along with her books) for me, more easy to take, as opposed to someone who never read fantasy horror novels.

I can’t help feel that as caring as Montag is why he was a fireman. I suppose it was because other family members were. By the way, does Montag mean Monday in German. I knew a man whose name was Sontag and he told me it ment Sunday.

I wonder what King and Barker could’ve done with this same plot.

Bill H

Hello all!

This book grabs you right from the first paragraph, doesn't it? Bradbury does a good job of describing the inanimate in terms of living things: the python hose that spews out its poisonous venom of kerosene, the firefly sparks of fire, and the 'flapping pigeon-winged books' that die in the fire and blow away on the black wind.

Can you see Montag with that fixed grin on his face?

ALF, that is interesting about all the synonyms used for burn. I missed that. I was looking at all the ways Bradbury describes books as living things.

Mrs. Watson, that mechanical dog is such a creepy thing. I'm scared of real flesh and blood dogs but I don't think that you could get me near that mechanical hound either. On Montag: in the Afterword in my copy of the book Bradbury says that he did not know until later that Montag is a company that makes paper.

Bill, I find it interesting that you find Montag to be a caring man. He does care for his wife and even for Clarisse. It seems to be at odds with the way he enjoys his work.

What did you think of Clarisse? I thought she appeared ghostlike when Montag first meets her: she walks as if she is gliding along; her face is slender and white; as is her dress white.

This is a good start and I'm glad to have you all here.

Clarisse is contrasted to Montag--white to his black--face like a mirror, milk white and milk crystal and bright as snow. She likes to walk in the moonlight or the rain, speaks of the dew. She has a sliding walk, seemingly set in motion by the wind, walks on moonlit pavement and silvered pavements. Bradbury's reiteration of his theme of hot and cool seems to be more like poetry than prose. Elizabeth

Neat! I missed the emphasis on watery elements of Clarisse.

Forgive me for jumping in late -- I've been away from computers, Internet, etc. for a week.

I'm not a science fiction fan, but have always liked the Bradbury I've read or seen, and liked Fahrenheit when I first read it several years ago. Started rereading last night, but got caught up in Bradbury's foreward to the 40th Anniversary edition and his introduction to the 1st ed.

Lorrie, he was pleased with French director Francois Truffaut's treatment of Fahrenheit in his film.

Delighted this book is up for discussion, and hope to join in when I've read a little further, and have had a chance to reread all your posts.

Hi everyone: Before we get well into this book and discyssion there are a few words of Bradbury's that I thought might interest you. They are from his foreword to the 40th Anniversary edition that you also have, Pedin. It's quite wonderful.These words tell a bit about himself and his book.

When asked to flesh out his work of 25000words to 50000words so that it could be published as a novel he says"I fearedfor refiring the book and rebaking the characters. I am a passionate, not an intellectual, writer, which means my characters must plunge ahead of me to live the story" He describes the way in which the characters of his earlier short works became those of "Fahrenheit"and says of "Montag, the man who smelled of kerosene, who met Clarisse who sniffed his uniformand told him his dreadful life function, which led Montag to show up in my typewriter one day forty years ago and beg to be born.Go, I said to Montag---and live your life, changing it as you go. I'll run after

Montag ran. I followed.

Montag's novel is here.

I am grateful that he wrote it for me"





.

Given the climate of the censorhip conscious country at the time of it's publication no one wanted to take a chance on a novel about past, present, or future censorship.

"A young Chicago editor, minus cash but full of future visions, saw my manuscript an bought it for four hundred and fifty dollars, all he could afford, to be published in issues number two, thre, and four of his about- to- be- born magazine

The young man was Hugh Hefner. The magazine was Playboy, which arrived during the winter of 1053-54 to shock and improve the world.---When I saw Hefner at the opening of his new offices in California a few months ago he shook my hand and said, Thanks for being there. Only I knew what he was talking about"

Clarisse's definition of who is social and who is anti-social seems very poignant. "It all depends on what you mean by social, doesn't it? Social to me means talking to you about things like this. She rattled some chestnuts that had fallen off the tree in the front yard. Or talking about how strange the world is. Being with people is nice. But I don't think it's social to get a bunch of people together and then not let them talk."

I think Clarisse is saying that a social atmosphere can only happen when feelings, ideas and experiences are shared. I have sat with friends and relatives, enjoyed popcorn and a movie, laughed a lot and enjoyed the evening. In Clarisse's eyes would we be considered sociable?

I can't imagine a "million forbidden books." To be burnt? Yikes! What gives a person the right to censor a book? It seems they would only be looking at life from their own perspective, their own lifestyle. At one time, was Wizard of Oz on a censorship list? I'm pretty sure Huckleberry Finn has been on a list.

Now, I'm confused. Just now, I asked my husband should any books be censored, and he said yes. So, I don't know.

I don't believe that one single book should be burned. I believe that many books are trash and are "worthy of being burned" but that this is not the solution. The solution, in my opinion, lies in the family. It is the parents' resonsibility to --

1 - Teach the child early how to read,
2 - Teach the child values, and
3 - Teach the child the Constitution, especially the First Amendment, which guarantees us freedom of speech.

If we don't like the book, don't read it but don't burn it. Others may want to read it. I don't believe in censorship.

Robby

Robbie, I agree with you. I mean who has the right to choose what I or any one in my household should read? Not single person. The burning of books makes me sick to my stomach. The choice to burn a book or censor it takes away my right to think, to make decisions.

What was the political climate in 1954? It's hard to remember. Senator McCarthy? John BIrch Society? Ethel & Julius Rosenberg? It takes a genius to extrapolate from McCarthy to "firemen" who burn, whose hoses spew kerosene. I never saw Hef as a White Knight before.

Hats, I don't know about the Wizard of Oz, but Huckleberry Finn has been on many "banned" lists, as has the American Heritage Dictionary and the Bible! !

Every September, libraries across the country recognize Banned Book Week -- I'm not sure if this is ALA sponsored, or is by the Washington (State) Coalition Against Censorship. The latter, I know, provides literature about banned books.

Robby, in his 40th Anniversary foreward, Bradbury makes a statement which backs up your comments above:

" . . you don't have to burn books if the world starts to fill up with nonreaders, nonlearners, nonknowers. If the world wide-screen-footballs and -basketballs itself to drown in MTV, no Beattys are needed to ignite the kerosene or hunt the reader."

Robby, I find myself nodding in agreement with you and feel like a hypocrite as I was doing it. I have been an avid reader all of my life and will read most anything, even if it was forbidden, i.e. Tropic of Cancer & Capricorn, Lady Chaterly's Lover, Lolita. I read them more out of curiosity because I was told not to read them . I never understood censorship and anyone impinging on my choices but I do confess to burning two books in my life. I took them right to the incinerator and stood there grinning as I watched them burn. They were utter filth and it did my heart good to witness their demise. So, while agreeing with you, I guess that I am just as guilty of suppression as my parents were.

I remember Sen. McCarthy very well. He was a tyrant if there ever was one and I would liken him to book burners.

Robby

Nellie:  You said "Bradbury does a good job of describing
the inanimate in terms of living things: the python hose that spews out its poisonous venom of kerosene."

That hose was akin to the stomach hose pump that was shoved down his wife's throat.  It was like a black cobra  looking into the soul, with its electric eye, that slushed up emptiness.  Wow!  What a vivid picture he paints.

Seniornagles:  You're so right  in noting how  clarisse is   so well contrasted to Montag.  Her thoughts were silent; his uncomfortable.  She smells the perfume of the  fresh strawberries and apricots and he smells the kerosene.  she encourages him to smell "old leaves."

Hats:  Great question!  In Clarisse's eyes would we be considered social or antisocial?
Her eyes were like the dial of a small  clock, with white silence  and glowing.  Poor Clarisse , fearful of other kids, skips school and  is labled "antisocial" because she doesn't fit in.
Her face is a mirror!  Montag wonders how many people refract your own light back to you?  How many throw back your own expression and your innermost thoughts?

Which books does your husband think should be banned, did he say?

Good remarks everyone!

Seniornagles, welcome to the discussion. Bradbury's writing is very poetic. I like this bit: "He felt his smile slide away, melt, fold over and down on itself like a tallow skin, like the stuff of a fantastic candle burning too long and now collapsing and blown out."

There are so many lovely bits of writing like that.

Mary W, thanks for sharing some of the quotes from the Foreword. I don't have a Foreword in my copy, but do have an afterword. I like this "Montag's novel is here. I am grateful that he wrote it for me." All the time I was reading the book I could tell how much Bradbury loved this character of Montag.

It seems so very fitting that this book about censorship was first published in Playboy. I think lots of folks would have wanted to censor that magazine back in the fifties.

HATS, I did a lot of thinking about Clarisse's definition of being social as people getting together and talking about the things they like. And being unsociable is getting people together and not letting them talk.

Are we being social here? We are talking about the things we like. We are getting together virtually and not physically. Would that make a difference?

Is watching and enjoying a movie with others being social? I guess it would be if you talked about it. Yet to me it seems to be very social this sharing of a pleasure with others.

Should some books be censored? What types would they be? It is an interesting exercise to list the type or types of books you would censor and burn, as it reveals a lot about yourself. I have some idea what type of book I would censor and they are on subjects I feel ill at ease with. How about you? (this is for everyone, of course)

Robby, In spite of what I said above I am against public censorship. We all should have the right to choose the types of books that we want to read; and we should also have the right not to choose; the right to self censorship.

More thoughts on this later.

Mrs. Watson, good question about the political climate in 1954. I'll see what I can find on it.

pedln, welcome and I'm glad to see you with us. Nice quote from the author about not needing to burn books when no one bothers to read, or wants to learn, and no one knows anything.

ALF, what a confession you have made: you personally burned two books and grinned like Montag as they burned.

I wonder if anyone else has done this?

I wonder if Bradbury saw someone burning a book or books with that same grin on their faces and that it stuck in his memory and became the story of Montag?

Must be off to the green grocers...

Hi ALF, you just posted at the time I was writing this...

Pedln, I did not know about the American Heritage Dictionary or The Bible. See, that's what I mean. If you ban one thing, you'll ban another. Then, it all turns into sheer madness.

Alf, I have nagged and nagged until I think my husband changed his opinion. I think he just wanted to get my goat.

Alf, Thinking of Lady Chatterly's Lover, I remember my mother keeping Peyton Place in one of those pretty round, tin cookie cans. Finally, I read the whole book behind her back, and guess what? I did not turn into a "loose" woman. At least, I don't think so. ha, ha.

Nellie, I agree with you about Clarisse's meaning of social an anti-social. I think we are being very social here. We are sharing ideas. That is what is important, sharing ideas and feelings. She is an interesting young girl and only seventeen.

When I was about 14 years old my buddy and I used to go the the stationery store and buy those pulp magazines that had those steamy stories. I have been a writer since childhood and decided I could write one just as good. I did. Then, having gotten a Scout Merit Badge in bookbinding, I put my manuscript in book form.

My father found it and censored it. He threw it into the coal stove right in front of my very eyes.

Robby

After Guy burned Capt. Beaty, he realized Beaty wanted to die. I have my own thoughts about this, but I would like to hear comments from some of the other readers as to why the Captain provoked Montag into killing him.

My didn’t the action pick up after Guy burned his own house, Beaty, and the Mechanical Hound? All heck broke lose Bradbury takes us all on a whirlwind ride complete with helicopters speeding autos and a new Mechanical Hound. I couldn’t read the pages fast enough to find out what next was going to happen next. I’ll probably finish the book to night.

Bill H

There's nothing wrong with burning books per se; the problems arise with motive and results of the burning. At one time, I needed to clear a good deal of shelf space, why, I can't recall, but our shelves were cluttered with books, books from 20 years of up to ten people bringing them in, getting them at school, receiving them as gifts, stealing them for all I know. I went through them all, kept the "good" ones, made one pile to donate to the library and one pile that I would have been ashamed to donate to anyone. What to do! The day was cold and rainy, a good fire was in the hearth. What can I say? It was an enjoyable experience, fun to watch the leaves curl back, the print to enlarge momentarily, ashes going up the chimney, but the best part was seeing the children's faces when they came home. They were totally shocked and only dubiously accepted my very rational very reasonable explanations. I'll have to ask them if they ever forgave me. Elizabeth

Hats, I have been rereading the posts and find this question of yours a difficult one:

"What gives a person the right to censor a book?"

Do we ever have to draw a line? What about Alf and the books she burned, or Robby's father. They didn't do what they did without reason.

Years ago a university professor, participating in a panel on censorship stated that if we say books are good, books contain good, then we must also assume that books can be evil, can contain evil.

Is there a difference between burning and banning?

I would like to say and believe that I'm totally against censorship, but I really don't know.

Hi all: Censorship is a blot upon history. I am, personally

Hi all: Censorship is a blot upon the annals of history. No one person and no group has the right to censor or ban books much less burn them. A love and appreciation for books and reading should start, as Robby says, in ones home. I believe that readers are their own best censora. The more one has read--especially of worthwhile literature--the more discriminating one becomes. Very few dedicated readers of really good books read trash. They know what junk they are and just aren't interested.Although too many books are not worth reading they most certainly should not be burned.

Robby, I, too, remember vividly the McCarthy era. That awful miasma penetrated every strata of society in the entire country. It ruined the lives of a great many talented writers who were black-listed and thus could not sell their their books, articles, plays or movie scripts. Suspicion was cast upon many worthwhile and contributing citizens in every walk of life. McCarthy was not the quintessential book burner but a very vicious and dangerous idealogue. He'd have been top dog in Salem.

Clarisse and Montag were the antithesis of each other.The way in which Bradbury makes this apparent is masterful.Their physical appearences, their thought processes, their totally different understanding of life and their attitudes toward it are examined to sharply point out the opposite poles that they were. They are, to me, vibrant life--Clarisse, and almost nearly dead--Montag. I find myself thinking that Clarisse was destined to save him from himself.I also believe thather two most important yardsticks for judging whether one is a social being were awareness and perception of everything with which we come in contact. The majority would be considered social beings--I hope.

Mary

Well, just discovered that this book was up for discussion! Have finished assigned section and caught up on postings! Bill H, PUHLEEZE don't give out info on coming sections! Haven't read into next portions and want to rediscover what happens!!!!

Last read this text in junior year of high school which was many, many moons ago - and am eager to revisit/rediscover it. I too flipped to back of my paperback & read the afterword & coda. When I read comments in posting that Montag was a paper supplier, also remembered that Bradbury also discovered that he had named a character (who hasn't appeared yet & I don't remember who that is)Faber unconsciously & was surprised to discover that he had named this person after a manufacturer of pencils!!

Censorship & Burning Issues The only books that I've ever burned have been paperbacks that were so worn that pages fell out & were beyond salvage & were replaced by hardback copies if they were something I wanted. The only other text that I burned was a college chemistry book that was the bane of my existence for a year. I burned this one, not because it was valueless, but rather as a juvenile rebellion against the frustration and hours of sweat & labor that it required - comprehension of which, I must confess, totally eluded me!

Don't believe in any form of censorship. Although I'd like to ignite a pyre of hate-group publications, their own words and biases speak for and blatantly show their own ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

Social Interaction Think that Clarrise was referring to the non-conversation/non-exchanges that seem to replace genuine interaction - like Mildred's speech & that of the characters in her wall-tv programs. Clarrise was labeled "anti-social" in school because she did try to interact/converse/ask why - which her classmates did not know how to do! So, Missy Clarrise was the "odd ball," the "misfit." Teachers today would love to have her in a class!

Initial Reactions to First Segment of the Book I was surprised to discover just how chilling I found this world. What Bradbury wrote back in the 50's seems very prophetic for that time, and even more applicable today - when involvement in tv, sporting events, MTV, mass media is much,much more prevelant than they every were back in the 50's! How sheltered we were then, and limited in terms of our exposure to immediate bombardments of news & media spiels! Am looking forward to what's to come in this discussion and the book!

Montag's "awareness" seems to begin when Clarrise asks him if he's happy.

MegR,Your comment below certainly rings true.

"What Bradbury wrote back in the 50's seems very prophetic"

It's hard to believe that it was his creativity and imagination that prompted Clarisse to say "I'm afraid of children my own age. They kill each other. . . . My uncle says his grandfather remembered when children didn't kill each other."

Should only books be free of censorship? What about films, TV, song lyrics, video games?

Pedln, I have to admit and dread admitting that I have never thought about the difference between burning and banning. Hmmmm. When the discussion is through, I will have more knowledge. I should have read this book long ago.

MegR, I love your explanation about why the children did not accept Clarisse at school. My words would not come out the way I wanted them to come out.

Another way to look at censorship and book burning is the role of large publishing houses and large booksellers who determine what the american public reads by their publishing and marketing selections- kudos to the small presses and kudos to the independent booksellers. (no insult intended to the site sponsors)

First of all welcome to MegR and YiLi! Nice to see you both here!

HATS, Clarisse is so young and yet so wise. She says this of herself "Sometimes I'm ancient." She seems to be like some short lived butterfly or flower to me.

Mary W, while I am on Clarisse: she and Montag are opposites. But she teaches Montag how to live. I love the scene where they are walking in the rain and Clarisse lifts up her face and opens her mouth to catch the raindrops on her tongue and while Montag thinks the whole thing is silly, after she leaves he turns up his face and drinks in the rain.

Was anyone surprised when Mildred told Montag that Clarisse was dead, that she had been run over by a car?

Robby, I had to smile at the thought of you writing a steamy story as a young lad.

seniornagles, the motives for burning or banning are what is important. It is interesting to read in the book why books are being burned. "The bigger the population, the more minorities." and books became watered down and the majority of people no longer bother to read. "It didn't come from the Government down. There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no! Technology, mass exploitation, and minority pressure carried the trick, thank God."

pedln, "Should only books be free of censorship?" Good question. To me all forms of art and entertainment should be free of censorship. There is in the end no difference between reading about something and looking at it on a screen or in a painting or other piece of art. Or is there?

MegR, I have to admit that I agree with you on the hate-group literature as being something I would like to put on a big pyre. Yet...if we allow everyone free speech, should not those folks be allowed free speech as well?

YiLi, I like your thought on 'books' being censored at the publisher's level. I have to think more on this.

Here is another quote from the book:

"Books bombarded his shoulders, his arms, his upturned face. A book lit, almost obediently, like a white pigeon, in his hands, wings fluttering. In the dim, wavering light, a page hung open and it was like a snowy feather, words delicately painted thereon."

Nellie:--You should read the ones I write now!! My writing ability has improved and there is no father around to censor me.

Robby

Nellie, I found it very hard to believe that Clarisse had died. At first, I thought Bradbury might be using some science fiction twist to confuse me. Is Clarisse really dead? I thought she would play a bigger part in the story. So sad.

Mildred seems to take everything within stride, even the death of the lady in the fire. It really struck me when Montag says to Mildred "We need not to be let alone. We need to be really bothered once in a while. How long is it since you were really bothered? About something important, about something real?" I had to relax a moment, stop right there, and think about what has "bothered" me recently or had I become totally anesthetized to the world and its problems.

I think Clarisse opens Montag's mind to new thoughts and feelings. I love the part where he hides the book under his coat and takes it out of the burning house to his own home.

YiLi and Nellie, while you are thinking about the discreet censorship of publishers and booksellers, don't forget to include librarians. (I was a high school librarian for 22 years.) It's so easy to blame the book budget. Can't afford that one.

Books get lost, books get stolen. A new teacher was showing his PE class a video meant for sociology students. He was shocked at what he saw and took it to his mentor who took it to the principal. When I finally heard about it I went to claim it from the principal, but funniest thing, it was lost and no one knew where it went. Scared straight -- a prize winner about prison life that we had used for years.

Sorry to have more questions than answers, but that's the way it is. Nellie, is there any difference between looking at a screen or a painting and looking at a flag?

Nellie:  I can not find this anywhere to substantiate it  BUT I believe that Bradburry got the idea of Farenheit 451 as he  meandered thru a library, lovingly caressing the numerous books that he so loved.  He thought "how awful" never to be able to read these wonderful stories and the seed was then planted.

Hats:  That is a riot!  Your hubby just wanted to get your goat.  Good for you, keep nagging at him to back up those statements.

Oh Robby:  You poor honey.  Your creation was destroyed.  My dad came into my room each night to say his good nights.  One such night he coaught me reading a True Confession" magazine.  I think I was 12 at the time.  He took it in his hands, smiled at me and said, "you are worthy of much better reading material."  I've never forgotten that and have never read another True Confession magazine.  He very cleverly censored my reading material with his subtlety.

Bill:  I think your question deserves a litany.  The pressure does mount as Beatty "leans foreward in the faint mist of smoke from his pipe" to explain to Montag that a book is a loaded gun .... Pg. 54.  I believe he was a miserable man who fell victim to the horrors of his society.  what he says is absolutely true today.  "Colored people don't like Little Black Sambo.  Burn it!  Whites don't like Uncle Tom's Cabin-- burn it!  This is all in the name of serenity and peace?  Yeah right!

Seniornagles: When we sold our house in NY state and moved I was fortunate enough to know a couple who were missionaries in Africa.  I donated my entire library and 50 zillion Natl. Geographic mags. to them.  They were so happy they cried with gratitude.

I didn't ban those books, I burned them.  One was the most dispicable, filthy piece of trash I had ever picked up.  I agree that is a form of censorship due to the fact that I could not imagine anyone in the world who could read and enjoy such smut!  The second book that I burned was a book given to me in remembrance of someone I did not care to remember.  I burned it in front of him.  Reading of any kind is my life's greatest enjoyment and I am not proud of the admission that I burned them now but at the time it gave me enormous satisfaction.

All of the previous comments are thought provoking. I will just put in my two cents on censorship. I can remember when "Banned in Boston" was a real happening. Not that many years ago. Banning anything just makes it more attractive and more salable. It seems to me that I have read about the Germanic tribes that overtook Europe in the dark ages burned all books they could find, and nearly destroyed all of the learning that had come from Greece, Rome, etc., for all mankind forever. It was the monks that kept the books that survived. This story of burning books is about mind control, keeping the huge populace from thinking and questioning anything, but modern day book burning accomplishes nothing. I believe in absolute freedom of expression, filth to me may be someone elses reason for living. Sure, life would be easier if we didn't have to worry about young people being exposed to things we find disgusting, but everyone of us was born with the ability to choose, and it is up to every parent to try to protect their children and teach them the values they wish them to have. I read many books from the library when I was growing up that my mother would probably have burned, but they only taught me about how other people lived. I was so protected I would never have learned any other way. It didn't make me a bad or lewd person.

Robby, I wanted to cry when I read what your father did. That must have hurt and shamed you, and I know how that feels.

Nellie, I too love the poetry in Bradbury's writing. There are too many references to type them all.

I know, I just left, and when I did I went searching to find some short stories on line at a site I had in my Favorites. I came across this page with a history about the new laws that libraries are fighting to censor the internet in public libraries. Some of the things that would be filtered out are books that are available on line. I am posting the site in case anyone would be interested in reading this information. http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/news.html#alacensorfight

Robby, I can't imagine you writing 'steamy' stories

HATS, I kept hoping that Clarisse would be discovered to be still alive. Beatty said that they -the authorities- had been keeping an eye on her family and her for a long time. And that she asked "why?" in school too much.

"You ask why to a lot of things and you wind up very unhappy indeed, if you keep at it."

Clarisse didn't seem unhappy. If anything she was filled with joy and far more happy than Montag or Mildred, neither of whom were asking 'why' about things.

pedln, good point about the discreet censorship at libraries also.

ALF, Bradbury wrote the book on a rented typewriter in a university library and he would wander around the stacks touching the books while taking breaks. A library seems like the perfect place to be inspired to write a book about censorship and people not reading all that much.

babsNH, welcome! Keeping people from reading books is a form of mind control isn't it?

In the book it is said "We must all be alike" and "People want to be happy" and it is believed that books make people unhappy and make people different from each other.

Is there a tendency in our society to want everyone to be alike? Does reading books make us unhappy?

Another quote:

"And I thought about books. And for the first time I realized that a man was behind each one of the books. A man had to think them up. A man had to take a long time to put them down on paper."

Hi all, Just two observations/reactions to share right now.

Clarissa's Death I was surprised when Mildred said that the teen had been killed in a car accident. Something just doesn't ring true for me here at this point & I questioned whether that actually happened or not. Mildred didn't say that she witnessed the event. She just unemotionally reported it and the almost instant disappearance of their new neighbors, the McClellans. Captain Beatty also said that "officials" had been tracking the family for years. Guy overheard the McClellans laughing & talking one night & was astounded by the family's interactions. Somehow, I suspect that the McClellans just skedaddled to get a step ahead of the "officials". If Clarissa really was dead, would her parents and family have the presence of mind to pack up and move when they most likely would be experience extreme grief over the loss of a child? This car story sounds like a coverup to me. I could be wrong (God knows I stick my foot in my mouth too frequently!) Her "death" just doesn't ring true for me at this point. What do you think?

Guy Smuggling Book(s) When Montag picked up the book and hid it in his pocket (at the fire where the old woman died), I cheered for his newfound curiosity & saw this as the result of Clarissa prickling his awareness. It was sort of an indication/ concrete evidence of the beginning of independent thought for him. He crossed the line of social taboo with this act. BUT! Then towards the end of the "Hearth & Salamander" section, we discovered why he kept looking at the air vent in his hallway with such discomfort! He has a stash of books there & has obviously been collecting them for a good while! Maybe he had been questioning the status quo for a while and Clarisse was the catalyst for him to become more reflective and active???

P.S. Nellie, your post above appeared when I posted this one. Prior postings by others and the questions that you raise about modern tendencies for homogeny have been naggling at my brain cause they reminded me of something else more current that I've read in the past few years. Gonna hunt for it & come back later! - Meg

I found the piece I was searching for above. It's from Chapter 5 "The Hero's Adventure" in The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers (Bantam, Doubleday, Dell 1988). Know that there has been a raging controversy over some of Campbell's beliefs, but I found this chapter very useful because Mr. Campbell very clearly defines/distinguishes exactly what a hero is and identifies basic & universal traits, experiences and accomplishments of a hero. Apologies ahead of time cause this will be a long posting with two excerpts included.

Passage I

For ten pages in my copy (pp.53-63), Captain Beatty explains to Montag how and why books are banned and burned during their time - basically because their society became historically ultra-homogonized. Then Nellie, asked, "Is there a tendency in our society to want everyone to be alike? Does reading books make us unhappy?"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Although the two men are discussing heroes in myth, Campbell & Moyer seem to address the core of this issue in the following passage. (Italics & bolds are my insertions)

MOYERS: In the political sense, is there a danger that these myths of heroes ( or sporting events, movies, tv or books teach us to look at the deeds of others as if we were in an amphitheater or coliseum or a movie (or in front of a tv) watching others perform great deeds while consoling ourselves to impotence.

CAMPBELL: I think this is something that has overtaken us only recently in this culture. The one who watches athletic games instead of participating in athletics is involved in a surrogate achievement. But when you think about what people are actually undergoing in our civilization, you realize it's a very grim thing to be a modern human being. The drudgery of the lives of most of the people who have to support families--well, it's a life-extinguishing affair.

MOYERS: But I think I would take that to the plagues of the twelfth century and the fourteenth century--

CAMPBELL: Their mode of life was much more active than ours. We sit in offices. . . .Something that's characteristic of our sedentary lives is that there is or may be intellectual excitement, but the body is not in it very much. So you have to engage intentionallly in mechanical exercises, the daily dozen and so forth. I find it very difficult to enjoy such things, but there it is. Otherwise, your whole body says to you, "Look, you've forgotten me entirely. I'm becoming just a clogged stream." (Which is what has happened to the minds of folks in this novel! Brains have become so atrophied with nonspeak & wall-tv nonconversations!")

MOYERS: Still, it's feasible to me that these stories of heroes could become sort of a tranquilizer, invoking in us the benign passivity of watching instead of acting. And the other side of it is that our world seems drained of spiritual values. People feel impotent. To me,, that's the curse of modern society, the impotence, the ennui that people feel, the alienation of people from the world order around them. (Folks in this book are totally alienated & disconnected from the world outside of their homes) Maybe we need some hero who will give voice to our deeper longing.

( They sidetrack into a a discussion of the "worship(of) celebrities today, not heroes" And continue with why heroes are needed today.)

CAMPBELL: Because (we have) to have (heroes to be) constellating images to pull all these tendencies to separation, to pull (us) together into some intention (to do good, to make things better).

Think they're saying that as observers who are overwhelmed with the daily grind of life, as observers who feel powerless in the face of large institutions, as observers who have lost or challenged or attempted to replace or redefine beliefs that our parents were sure of, that we have become (as a society) passive and unfocused non-doers. This sure sounds a lot like Montag's society - taken to the extreme! Don't think that it's a conscious desire to be like everyone else (except for teenagers), think that it's more of a daily grinding down that planes modern lives into like-sized wooden blocks. Wasn't this published around the time that e.e. cummings was also writing about "ticky-tacky houses" and "ticky-tacky lives"?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Passage II

In the very beginning of this chapter, Campbell defines the hero & his/her deeds and journey. Some of this also connects with our book for me. Will be curious to see if initial similarities apply for the rest of the book.

CAMPBELL:. . . .a hero or heroine (is someone) who has found or done something beyond the normal range of achievement and experience. A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself. (Later in the chapter he indicates that there has to be an altruistic intention/purpose for the hero's deed. The hero's achievement has to improve the life of his/her society or people)

(He then goes on to distinguish between physical and spiritual deeds which the hero performs and discusses the universal journeys that all heroes undertake.)

CAMPBELL: . . . .The usual hero adventure begins with someone from who something has been taken, or who feels there's something lacking in the normal experiences available or permitted to the members of his society. (This sure sounds like Montag at this point of the story!) This person then takes off on a series of adventures beyond the ordinary, (which will test his mettle & worthiness to be a hero either to recover what has been lost (physically like Helen of Troy - or spiritually like Christ, Buddha or Moses who sought new spiritual understandings) or to discover some life-giving elixir (boon, prize or enlightenment). It's usually a cycle, a going (, a testing of the hero,a discovery) and a returning (with something literally or figuratively to enrich his society).

Seems to me like Montag is at the point of realizing that something is missing from his life, that there has to be more. Wonder if he'll find it and change things?

Thanks for the Campbell/Moyer dialogue. Sounds as if those who stumble into performing heroic deeds, lacking the intent, are not turely heroes? The whole Beatty episode turned me off. It's difficult to read through ten (10!) pages of preaching. I'll go back and try again to read it. Bradbury's prose is so visual, this section interrupted the flow, even though it was necessary to the plot to lay this foundatoin, I guess.

Thank you, MegR, for those observations; like Mrs Watson I will go back and read Beatty's ten pages again. Elizabeth

MegR, that is an very good and interesting post on the Hero and how it pertains to the book we are reading!

I too think that the car accident story is a cover-up. But I think that the story is a cover-up for the fact that the authorities killed Clarisse. The reason? She was subverting one of their own: Montag.

Now I'm thinking about the Hero thing and this bit from Power of Myth: "...there must be an altruistic intention/purpose for the hero's deed."

According to that Montag is not yet a hero. He is being affected by various outside forces in the form of other people. I think the one person who has affected him the most is the old woman who died with her books. This is what Montag says:

"...There must be something in books, things we can't imagine, to make a woman stay in a burning house; there must be something there. You don't stay for nothing."

Montag is beginning to question his job and is becoming curious about books and what is in them. Beatty knows this and that is why he comes along with his long spiel about the history of the firemen who start fires and burn books.

I found that 'history' interesting because it reveals things about myself and about our own society which was yet to be when Bradbury wrote Fahrenheit 451. These words made me think of the Political Correctness movement that pervades all that most of us say and do:

"Colored people don't like Little Black Sambo. Burn it. White people don't feel good about Uncle Tom's Cabin. Burn it. Someone's written a book on tobacco and cancer of the lungs? The cigarette people are weeping? Burn the book."

I know the PC movement doesn't literally burn books; but it does control our speech and what is written in books. I had this sense while reading F451 that in Montag's world things were in constant change even though they appeared to stay the same. People are barraged by so many different things in short order that they do not have the time to think and question.

I have more thoughts on this but need to gather them together first.

Since this is science fiction, I believe I'll think of Clarisse as Montag's guardian angel, helping him to save his soul--with lots of pain and grief and suffering in the traditional way, Elizabeth

Two Clarifications - Re: Campbell/Moyer Excerpts

I. Mrs. Watson asked if "those who stumble into performing heroic deeds, lacking the intent, are not truely heroes?"

According to Campbell, one can be an intentional or an unintentional hero. For example: Beowulf was an intentional hero because he chose to leave home to fight Grendel in order to aid the Spear-Danes (or was it the Storm-Geats? I never remember) and he also chose to fight the fire dragon which threatened his people 50 years later. On the other hand, King Arthur was an unintentional hero. He didn't choose to become a ruler; accident/chance events led to Art yanking that sword from the stone. "Fate" imposed a future on the youth which he most probably would not have chosen. (See comments below for further clarification.) Does this help?

II. Nellie V. also asked if "there must be an altruistic intention/purpose for the hero's deeds?"

Apologies for my lack of clarity on this one. As mentioned above, the hero doesn't have to have the intention of doing something good before he begins his/her journey. According to Campbell, the result of returning home with his/her "boon," (riches, reward, discovery, or enlightenment) and sharing it with his people must enrich his society or better it in some way. It's that final returning & sharing that must produce good of some kind that will enrich or ennoble life more. Does this help?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Nellie also said that she "found the history (of firemen & book banning/burning) interesting because it reveals things about myself and about our own society which was yet to be when Bradbury wrote Fahrenheit 451." Also think that that was one of the reasons why I found the first part of this novel so chilling too! Had the same reaction to Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale because you could so easily see how current trends could so easily lead to those conditions of Atwood's world and Bradbury's.

As I said before, it's been mega-years since I first read this book. I have very vague memories of what's to come. This second reading has raised issues that I don't remember considering "way back when." Am just stunned too, Miss Nellie, by how prophetic Bradbury was. Don't know if Guy will become a "hero" in the universal sense or not. Am looking forward to what he will do and choose.

Thank you all for sharing such interesting sidelights. My enjoyment of Bradbury is enriched by the new depths which have been shared.

Seniornagles, Clarisse as Montag's guardian angel is an interesting idea. While I'm personally not sure if she is an angel, I do think that she reveals Montag's true soul to him. (Not sure that makes sense)

MegR, thanks for clearing that up about the Hero and that being one can be intentional or unintentional. I am not yet certain about Montag being a Hero; but if he is then it is an unintentional one.

What I found to be the most chilling was the reason for burning books: so that everyone would be happy. Don't we do or say many things today because they make everyone happy or at least make those who count happy? By collary we don't do or say the things that might make someone unhappy. I'm particularly interested in the not saying things that make others unhappy. If you want to keep others happy, then often the best thing to do is not to say anything at all. Since books are a form of speech -to me they are at least-then to silence them they must be burned or destroyed in some other way.

Were the people, the authorities too concerned over keeping everyone happy? Are we -speaking of people and our two nations in general-too concerned over keeping everyone happy?

Now I want to go on to that air vent and what we know is hidden there. What did you think was behind the vent when it was first mentioned?

"He stood looking up at the ventilator grill in the hall and suddenly remembered that something lay hidden behind the grill, something that seemed to peer down at him now."

I thought at first that it was some kind of camera so that the Authorities could keep an eye on his comings and goings. Then when his hand put that book inside his jacket almost automatically I figured it must be a book. I was surprised when it turned out to be twenty of them. Were you?

Any thoughts on Mildred, Montag's wife? She is as big a part of his life and of this first section of the book and yet she seems to slip easily from one's mind. Doesn't she? I like the name Bradbury chose for her: to me it fits her and the type of person she is perfectly. She also is the most representative of the common person of the future time in which the story takes place imo. I do want to look at her and the relationship between her and Montag.

More thoughts tomorrow.

Hi Mrs. Watson

Nellie, I suspected it might be a book that was hidden behind the air vent.grill. That is what led me to believe Guy didn’t fully like what he was doing.

”Making everybody happy.”Look what happened to Mildred by giving her supposedly what she wanted. It left her completely devoid of caring

Bill H

Today I had an appt. in the "big city" and all thru lunch kept thinking of Bradbury and his prophecies. Alone, I went to a "nice" restaurant -- not a fast food. Looked around, and counted THREE !! TVs, two of them with different channels. This is not the first time I've run into blaring TVs in restaurants other than sports bars.

Even mealtime, once the bastion of the gentle art of conversation and the sharing of thoughts, is tainted by canned conversations of stangers.

Happily, tho, most of the patrons were conversing and ignoring the TVs. I asked the waiter why they were on, but he had no answer.

Montag had wished that " they'd taken her mind to the drycleaners" when her stomach needed to be pumped out. He didn't care if her breath came or went as he viewed her body , "displayed like the lid of a tomb " with the ocean of music playing thru her seashell earplugss. Talk about escapism, I'm gonna try that one.

One of my coworkers is very loud; the rest of us work with our headphones on, plugged in to music of, in my case, NPR. This is partly the "happy" issue, but also avoidance of dealing with this very difficult person, who is continually being picked on by the entire world.

I know we have gone past the censorship question, but your comments, posters, prompted me to evaluate my own ideas. I am surprised to find that my ideas about censorship are more conservative than any read here--more than I knew myself. So here's what I found out: I am in favor of as little censorship as possible BUT I don't want to surrender my responsibility for a good, humane society to devotion to an abstraction, i.e., free speech. Ideally, virtue is imposed by self-discipline but as our society instills less and less self-discipline in our young, control needs to be administered from without. Some terrible and harmful things have been posted on the internet--no need to give examples.

Our freedoms were established by those well instructed in the best ideas of mankind. If, nowadays, those ideas are little promulgated and honored, censorship might partly fill the gap until society changes again. I also believe that some persons of bad will, cynically exploit our devotion to free speech, and last, what about, "My right to free speech does not extend to yelling 'fire' in a crowded theatre."?

I'll pick up a copy tomorrow and join the discussion. It has been many years since I read it, but there are some things that I THINK I remember from it that really hit home for me now.

Should be interesting.

Seniornagles -- What a well-thought-out statement. It says a lot and opens up a lot of areas for discussion.

"I don't want to surrender my responsibility for a good, humane society to devotion to an abstraction."

Are you saying there should be no absolutes? It certainly makes life more difficult when there are gray areas, and everything is not black and white. It forces one to think.

I was also going to add that a society governed by absolutes in not always a just or compassionate society, but need to think about that some more.

pedln, it seems to me that each issue must be addressed separately, argued about separately, and a compromise found. elizabeth

Bill, I think that Mildred cares only for herself. She has three TV walls which take up all of her time and attention and yet she seems to feel incomplete without a fourth TV wall.

I found it creepy that Mildred spent every night laying on top of her bed with her eyes wide open listening to music on her seashell earphone radio. Then Montag discovers that she has taken thirty sleeping pills. I found it odd that Montag doesn't tell her about taking the pills at first. Instead he lets her think that they had a small party and that she overindulged. But when he is ready to leave for work he asks her about the pills and she doesn't even remember taking them.

She also is much more interested in her TV wall 'friends' than her own husband. Reminds me a bit of myself because I must confess that there are times when my online friends interest me more than my own family.

There is such a big gap between Montag and Mildred as is represented by the space between their beds:

"He lay far across the room from her, on a winter island separated by an empty sea."

Their relationship seems so unloving...and yet when she goes over to his bed and touches his cheek, then somehow you know there is still some love there.

Or maybe she is just curious about Montag's behaviour?

pedln, I've been places like that too with TV's going or often it is canned music which plays just loud enough to be a bother because to be heard by others you practically have to shout.

ALF, What do you think Mildred is escaping from? Herself? Montag?

Mrs. Watson, interesting about you and other coworkers using music through earphones to drown out a loud coworker. Mildred drowns out her world through the ever present music and noise of her seashells. But she has learned to lip read so that she can half carry out a conversation with her husband.

seniornagles, you have made some good points about freedoms such as free speech coming with responsibilities and that self discipline is needed for people to be responsible.

It the book it seems there is very little self discipline. Everything must be fun. Attention spans are very short. Are those TV walls to blame? I find that in our own time and world people seem to have shorter attention spells and wonder if constantly watching TV from the time they were babies is a possible cause of that? To truly absorb what TV presents you need a short and fast attention span because everything happens so fast. Everything happens fast in Bradbury's future world too.

Those three TV walls are almost frightening, aren't they? The sound is so loud that Montag feels like he is being shaken apart and that he is being whirled around and around as if in some big centrifuge; and then that he was falling without ever reaching the bottom. The experience makes him physically ill.

Yet Mildred spends most of her time in that room.

Time for me to go for today. I'm much enjoying this discussion.

Nellie--

Yes, it was the TV walls I remembered. I think of them every time I have all 3 of mine going as I move about the apartment. I miss the commotion of my kids, and feel I must have SOME thing to keep my mind thinking. With no one to bounce thoughts off, I talk back to the TV. It would be soooo easy just to never go out.

Jeanlock: Boy, do I know what you mean. When I lived alone, I used to go home on Fridays, and sometimes I didn't go out all weekend. Does anyone else have trouble with character names? My grandmother was a Mildred, and I find it so hard to think of a yong woman with that name. Clarisse is a fitting name, and men's names seem mor intergenerational, but women's names!

I feel sorry for Millie. She sees her husband suddenly go insane, and he puts her in imminent danger of being burned alive. Elizabeth

jeanlock, interesting that you have 3 televisions going at once to provide the sounds that once your children made and at the same time keeping your mind busy by interacting with the TVs.

That makes me think of Mildred and Montag in the book. They don't have kids. I'm sure Mildred feels somewhere deep down inside that she is missing something and that her immersing herself in the interactive TV walls is her way of overcoming those feelings. Thinking of the Montags not having children: there seem to be only teens and adults in the story; no very young children are ever mentioned. That makes me think that people are not having children.

And how could someone like Mildred, who is addicted to those TV walls ever take care of a child? I also imagine that all her neighbours are the same. This is a dying society, isn't it?

Mrs. Watson, good point about the names. What I find interesting is that the women are called by their first names -Clarisse, Mildred; and the men are mostly referred to by their surnames -Montag, Beatty, Stoneman, Black, Faber. Is that something that was common in the '50's?

It would be interesting to look at what aspects of the '50's made their way into this book. Thoughts on this?

Hi seniornagles, Millie (Mildred) is in quite a spot that's for sure. But I don't think that they normally burned people with their books. The old woman who ended up being burned was supposed to have been taken away by the police before the firemen came. Someone had made a mistake and that was why she was still there. But Mildred would still be in danger of being arrested and of perhaps losing everything she held dear.

Tomorrow we begin part 2, but first a bit on the last bit of part 1: I found a bit of humour there:

"Mildred backed away as if she were suddenly confronted by a pack of mice that had come up out of the floor."

Somehow a 'pack of mice' doesn't sound overly scary to me. If anything it sounds funny.

Their reactions to the pile of books in the hall: Mildred wants to instantly begin burning them; she pulls her foot away when it accidently touches one. Montag wants to look at them and then get rid of them; when Beatty returns he has the desire to put the books back in the vent.

He knows that he can't put the books back and when Beatty is gone begins to read at random. Mildred is right. It doesn't make sense. Reading bits out of a book at random seldom makes sense because what is being read has no context.

Now on to The Sieve and the Sand...

About the pack of mice: Bradbury is endlessly comtemptuous of Mildred so he uses a silly seeming threat for a silly seeming woman. However I feel that Mildred's terror deserves as much respect and compassion as any other living creature's. Elizabeth

Hi everyone: Loojing back pver the jillion centuries I haved lived the 50s were one of the quietest of my lifetime. Of course the Cold War was the ever-present sword of Damocles. But, for the most part, it was a sort of Ozzie and Harriet world. A simpler and quite safe place for our children.

NELLIE--I believe the only major happening of the 50s which became a lasting legacy of shame and which influenced Bradbury was the McCarthy witch hunts. It created an inescapable atmosphere in which people were accused of treasonous activities, of lying under oath, or of being Communists-- all these out of whole cloth--no evidende or dependable witnesses. It created a feeling of "Big Brothr is Watching You" and the knowledge that feedom andandependence are fragile and must be nurtured and sustained. The whole censorsnip premise of "Pharonheit 451 , I believe, grew out of Bradburys' having lived through this regrettable period in our history. As a by-product it gave rise to a larger and more vocal cadre of idealogues. In a sense it was the lull before the explosion of the 60s.

Also, NELLIE I believe that Millie did not live in a "dying society" it was a DEAD society. The inhabitants of that world were brain dead and benumbed by their stultifying and oppressively unrewarding existence.

Mary W

.

seniornagles, yes Mildred deserves better as a character than the authors gives her. Can an author create a character he or she does not really understand? I sense that Bradbury could not get 'inside' Mildred the way he could get 'inside' Montag or Beatty or Faber or Clarisse. Perhaps it is difficult for someone who loves books and is at ease with them to imagine what seeing books would be like for someone who was raised in a society in which books are forbidden, and in which they could lead to prison or even a horrible death.

Maybe if Bradbury were to revise the book he would change that mention of the mice which is condescending to the character of Mildred. We must remember that this book was written in the Fifties and I think that may have been a time when many women's fears were looked on as amusing and silly. That's only my opinion, mind you.

Note: I have been rereading a bit of the first part and while Montag is shocked by the old woman burning with her books, Mildred does seem certain that they will be burned with the books Montag has smuggled into the house. I think that Mildred is right. Even though she appears to be totally out of touch with the world, I think that she is through her seashell radio, that she listens to constantly, more in touch with what goes on in their world than Montag. Perhaps she heard on the news that people were being burned with their books?

Mary W, thanks for the thoughts and info on the Fifties! Those McCarthy Hearings (witch hunts) were a frightening thing for many people. I wonder if some of that activity led directly or indirectly to some book burning? I can certainly see people getting rid of any book that even mentioned Communism so that they would not be charged with being a communist.

Part two begins with:

"They read the long afternoon through, while the cold November rain fell from the sky upon the quiet house."

The TV parlor with its three TV walls has been turned off. What does that tell us?

A most fascinating part of the book is just beginning. Come back! Mary

I'm here, Mary

There is some good stuff coming up. When the Mechanical Hound comes sniffing around and Mildred thinks it is 'only a dog' and wants to open the door to look, I feared for a moment that she would not listen to Montag and open the door. Did you feel the same way?

Then there are the bombers flying over that no one wants to talk about. I was surprised when I read "We've started and won two atomic wars since 1990! Going back to the fact that this book was written and published in the '50's: do you think that people actually thought that they could win an 'atomic' war?

Here are some questions that Montag asks of Mildred that we could well ask of ourselves:

"Is it because we're having so much fun at home we've forgotten the world? Is it because we're so rich and the rest of the world so poor and we just don't care if they are? I've heard rumors; the world is starving, but we're well fed. Is it true, the world works hard and we play?"

Do you think that any of those questions fit our own society? Do they fit us?

Finally: is Montag right about books or rather the reading of books being able to change his world from what it is?

Nellie, I wonder if Bradbury's treatment of Mildred, reflects her impact on Montag. She really does nothing that changes him. So far, it seems the characters with the most impact on Montag are Clarisse and Faber.

Nellie, the next question after your quote was "Is that why we are hated so much?" Granted Montag had only heard rumors of that hatred, but at some point people must have talked about things going on in the world that they really had no knowledge about but were still curious. Is curiosity the character trait that drives the human on and keeps us from being completely brainwashed? Seems so.

Pedln, since the story is essentially about Montag, it may well be that Mildred was of secondary importance to the author and hence he wouldn't develop her as much as the more central characters.

I'm not so sure that she doesn't have an impact on Montag. Perhaps seeing what she has become -totally enslaved to that TV parlor with its 'family' on three of its walls, and to her seashell radio playing in her ears day and night, and becoming so forgetful that she cannot recall that she had already taken a sleeping pill before taking another one-he does not want to become the same. That would spur him on to look for ways to change things, for himself and maybe for Mildred as well.

Babs, I think that Montag's curiosity keeps him from being brainwashed. And it could be that our curiosity keeps the same from happening to us.

Let's have a bit of a look at Faber, who will be both a mentor and a help to Montag.

Faber is a retired English professor whose job disappeared when there were not enough people interested in learning to keep the college he taught at open. Montag meets him a year before the story begins in a park. They talk. Faber quotes bits of poetry and seems to have a book of poetry in his pocket. When they part he gives Montag his address.

I think Faber was testing Montag. He wanted to see how Montag would react to the presence of an illegal book in his vicinity. Montag passed Faber's test and that is why he gives his address.

Montag phones Faber and asks him how many copies of the Bible are left. Understandably Faber is suspicious of Montag.

I think that this bit of interaction between Montag and Mildred is so sad and puts their whole relationship into perspective:

"Montag stopped at the door, with his back turned.
"Millie?"
A silence. "What?"
"Millie? Does the White Clown love you?"
No answer.
"Millie, does--"He licked his lips."Does your 'family' love you, love you very much, love you with all their heart and soul, Milly?"
He felt her blinking slowly at the back of his neck.
"Why'd you ask a silly question like that?"
He felt he wanted to cry, but nothing would happen to his eyes or his mouth."

I do wonder why Montag felt like crying at what Millie says in reply to his question? Is she telling him his question is silly because she knows her 'family' cannot possibly love her? Of course he is really asking her if she knows that he loves her with everything in his being. I thought at first that she was telling him that she did not love him in some indirect way; but after reading it again, I'm not so sure.

More thoughts tomorrow...Montag is on his way to see Faber about getting a book duplicated...

The police and firemen couldn’t find Guy Montag, so an innocent man was substituted for him just so the public could be appeased. Bradbury creates a short but shocking scene with the police helicopter.page. The police couldn’t admit they were unable to find Montag so some one else had to take his place. An innocent man out for a walk was set upon and killed by the Mechanical Hound. The helicopter camera showed all this to the public. Montag killed. Case closed. Which brings to mind how many innocent men are serving time just to satisfy the prosecutor’s office

The other day I was listening to Rush Limbaugh, the talk show host, on my car radio. He asked this question “ Is it better to allow a thousand guilty men to go free than to send one innocent man to prison.” Limbaugh then turned it around and said “... or is it better to send one innocent man to prison than allow a thousand guilty men to go free.” Interesting.

Bill H

Bill, that is something to think about. That helicopter televised chase reminded me of those reality TV cop shows they show on the Fox network. But I think we might be getting a bit ahead of ourselves.

This is on innocense too: Faber tells Montag that there was a time when he could have spoken out against the burning of books:

"I'm one of the innocents who could have spoken up and out when no one would listen to the 'guilty,' but I did not speak and thus became guilty myself."

The 'guilty' must be those who were advocating the burning of books. People were not listening to them, but no one was speaking out against them and so the will of the 'guilty' prevaled. Would it have been any use for Faber to have spoken out?

Faber says some neat things about books: that they smell like nutmeg or some spice from some exotic foreign land; that they were a receptable in which a lot of things that would be forgotten were stored; they stitch the patches of the universe together into one garment.

"Number one: Do you know why books such as this are so important? Because they have quality. And what does the word quality mean? To me it means texture. This book has pores. It has features. This book can go under the microscope. You'd find life under the glass, streaming past in infinite profusion. The more pores, the more truthfully recorded details of life per square inch you can get on a sheet of paper, the more 'literary' you are. That's my definition, anyway. Telling detail. Fresh detail. The good witers touch life often. The mediocre ones run a quick hand over her. The bad ones rape her and leave her for the flies."

Let's not forget that Faber speaks for Bradbury and it is Bradbury's thoughts on books that we are hearing.

What are your thoughts on books?

We write to taste life twice, in the moment and in retrospection . . . We write to be able to transcend our life, to reach beyond it. We write to teach ourselves to speak with others, to record the journey into the labyrinth. --Anaïs Nin

This quote was sent to me this week by a cyber friend, and although it is about writing and not about books per se, it represents to me my feelings about books, just substitute the word read for write. In my protected little world how uninformed and uninteresting my life would be without my books. Are they more than paper and print? Yes, they are, after eyes have read them.

Oh my, I have missed all of you. I've just completed all of the posts I have missed "in transit" and am in awe of your insights into this classic. Babs: What a fabulous post- we "read" to teach ourselves to speak with others.

babsNH, that is a good quote from Nin, and when you replace 'write' with 'read' it still makes sense. A nice illustration of how the purposes of writers and readers dovetail with each other.

I like what you said about a book being more than paper and ink, but only after someone has read it.

Hi ALF! Now that you are caught up I hope you will share some of your thoughts on books and on the book

I like that Faber says you can stop reading a book at any time, close it, and think about what the book is saying. You can even argue with a book and it can be 'beaten down with reason'.

Montag wants to know if books can help change his life -if I understand him right -Faber tells him only if three factors are in place: books with quality information; the leisure time to read and digest them; and the right to carry out actions based on the first two factors.

When Montag approaches Faber with the idea of printing extra copies of books, Faber is only interested if said books were placed in firemen's houses and then the alarm called in -he is joking but Montag thinks he is serious.

Faber also says that the firemen to burn books are not necessary because people have stopped reading of their own accord, and thay they -the firemen-just provide the occasional sideshow entertainment that serves to warn those who might rebel against the status quo.

We are from a 'reading' generation. But what about those of the younger generations? Do they read as much? Do they read in their leisure time and for the sheer pleasure of it?

Consider the saddest thing in the book thus far. "Faber was an English Proffessor who had been thrown out upon the world forty years ago when the last liberal arts colleges shut for lack of students and patronage" It is impossible to imagine a world without higher education. Man without access to knowledge is only a step above the lower animals.

A revealing quote from Faber is"I dont talk things,sir---I talk the meaning of things. I sit here and know I'm alive" I believe this a commentary on the fact that an educated mind is dull of things to remember and compensates for many hardships. Faber knows that he is no longer valued as a contributing member of society (but then, actually no person is in that world) but he has much to think about. His mind is ,thankfully,full of wonderful things to ponder.

I don't know how to account for the glitch. Sorry. Before I post any more where are we in the narrative? I dont want to get ahead of the story. Please let me know. Mary

Thank you all for these thought-provoking comments. Reading a book this way (with a book club) is a revelation to me. Looking back over my extensive reading by myself, I think I must have missed 50% of its import by not participating in discussions like this.

Kids not reading much today: Some reasons are availability of tv, videos, cd's, computer games, and hand-held computer games. They often take lessons: swimming lessons, music lessons, riding, tennis and computer lessons, little league this and little league that. Often after school working parents arrange for their children to be with groups of other children who are led in activities. None of these things are bad in themselves, but I clearly remember be driven to reading through sheer boredom and in time reading became a mainstay of my life.

Tampa, Florida--Associated Press--"Tampa Goes High-tech to Pick Wanted Faces From Crowd." A software program linked to 36 cameras began scanning crowds Friday...matching faces against a databaseof mug shots. "'Tampa is really leading the pack...'" said Frances Zelazny, a spokeswoman for Visionics Corp., which produces the "FaceIt" software.

Is that not chilling? Elizabeth

Mary W, Fabers case is a sad one and so is the idea of no higher education. There is high school because I remember that Clarisse said she was going to high school. But even that was watered down as the students just memorized whatever they needed to know to survive in their society and were not truly learning much.

I think that whole society is so sad.

You're doing fine and are not getting ahead. In fact, I believe I am falling behind somewhat

seniornagles, kids are so entertained nowadays that they have no time for reading, do they? Like you I became a voracious reader because books were a way of entertaining myself. I think there are kids who would get into mischief when they are bored instead of picking up a book because they cannot read well enough to enjoy the nuances of a story book.

Cameras watching and comparing faces against mug shots...creepy.

What did you think of Montag using the blackmail of tearing the Bible up to get Faber to help him? It works because Faber does agree to get a printer friend to begin printing out copies of books, specially Montag's Bible. He also gives Montag a seashell which is a two-way radio. He thinks that Captain Beatty might be one of them -a book lover.

The war getting ready in the sky presages the 'war' Montag and Faber will soon be fighting against those who burn books.

Is Montag right to be concerned about Faber leading him and telling him what to do? Montag wants to do his own thinking and carry out his own actions.

That scene with the visitors, Mrs. Bowles and Mrs. Phelps, is quite something with everyone having to shout to each other to be heard above the noise of the TV walls. Then I could almost hear the silence when Montag shuts the room off. And his memory of the statues in the church and how the three women he is looking at seem no different to him.

When Montag asks them to talk, the ensuing conversation gives us further insight into their society. I found it disturbing that children are barely tolerated. How about you? And how about them voting for someone just because he was good looking?

I was surprised when Montag suddenly shows up with a book of poetry. Were you? I was also a bit surprised that Mildred covered up for him with that story about the firemen being allowed to have a book once a year to show how silly they are.

We'll finish off this section of the book tomorrow and get started on the final part.

Hi all: NELLIE--your quote, Faber-- "I'm one of the innocents who could have spoken up and out when no one would listen to the 'guilty',but I did not speak and thus became guilty myself" I most emphatically disagree with his estimate of himself.It is not part of the makeup of Faber--an intellectual,of course, but ,by then he was also a realist.I consider hih a realist or pragmatist, if you will.He knew it was fruitless to protest. He knew he had to survive--to wait--and to plan.The "guilty"not only embraced the book burning but, in addition, were those who had rejected learning and,therefore, books. Faber was very definitely not one of those.

Don't know what happened here, either.

BABSNH--Like you, books have always been of paramount importance in my life. I love not only the words which nourish my spirit and my soul but theactual pyhsical or sensory pleasure of holding a book in my hands.I enjoy examining it's binding (especially that rare old one with a leather binding)--it's publisher-- looking to see if there is an index or bibliography--a foreword or an afterword--and savoring the twin wonders of writing and reading. I could never have survived this very long life without books you can probably see that paperbacks don't really thrill me.

SENIORNAGLES--What do kids read today? The very young, if they are also lucky enough to have some one to read to them are blessed. There is a plethora of good literature for little ones. Once they are reading on their own I believe they don't read much and most of it is junk. their are too many other things for young people to do today that are far more titillating.I also believe that what is read by adults,also is not earthshaking.Our standards have drastically deteriorated in learning, manners, mores etc. Here is a bit of a column from the washington Post written by George Will It sounds as if it could have from F.451, doesn't it? He says,"Ours is an age besotted with graphic entertainment.And in an increasingly infantilized society whose moral philosophy is reducible to a celebration of 'choice' adults are decreasingly distinguishable from children in their absorption in entertainments----video games,computer games,hand held games,movies on their computers and so on.This is progress; more sophisticated delivery of stupidity.---America, determined to amuse itself into inanition,is becoming increasingly desensitized. So entertainmentseekinga mass audience is ratcheting up the violence, sexuality and degradation---". Scary? Have we become or are we becoming a society like Montags?

Clarissa was Montags'alarm clock--awakening the dormant man in him to another world Faber was his guide and mentor. Most of that world had forgotten learning--art, history, the beauty of nature, the joy of communicating with others--a totally superficial existence. If Montag had not met the first real friend of his life,Clarisse, and had noy encountered the survivor, Faber, there wold have been no book. It would all have ended in the oncoming war.

The encounter with the vacuous women made me realize that in every human brain there are memories. They are supressed but await nly the proper stimulus to awaken them.I believe that for thse few moments those awful women became painfully aware of a lost world of love and sensitivity.The book of poems produced by Montag did not surprise me because, by then, his behaviour was irrational. What did astonish me was Mildred's protective explanation of the presence of the book. The first really recognizable evidence of any glimmer of anything besides complete self-absorbtion.

orry this got so long. I'll do better next time/ Mary

A Happy Fourth of July to you all!

Mary W, you can never be too long in your posts. You pointed out some very good thoughts. I enjoy reading what you have to say.

I agree with you that Faber was being much too hard on himself when he refers to himself as a coward. Sometimes running away is the best thing one can do. Not that Faber literally ran away. What is that saying? Discretion is the better part of valour. That seems to fit Faber's situation.

Is our society becoming like that of Montag? I think so. I saw a lot of our own society in the ficticious society Bradbury writes about. Maybe there will never be 'firemen' who go out to burn books. But I think books will keep changing to reflect the types of entertainments people enjoy. This is already noticable in the Science Fiction genre where you will see many books based on role playing games and television shows, while the more 'regular' books selection seems to shrink every time I look.

I wonder why Mrs.Phelp's cries at the reading of the poem? Is it because she finds it beautiful? Does it remind her of something sad in her life? Or is she crying because it has been imprinted in her that books make you sad and make you cry?

What thoughts does the following by Montag bring about?

"Go home." Montag fixed his eyes upon her, quietly."Go home and think of your first husband divorced and your second husband killed in a jet and your third husband blowing his brains out, go home and think of the dozens of abortions you've had and your damn Caesarian sections, too, and your children who hate your guts! Go home and think how it all happened and what did you ever do to stop it? Go home, go home!" he yelled. "Before I knock you down and kick you out the door!"

Montag seems to have lost it. But he is telling Mrs. Bowles like it is. Everyone pretends to be living these wonderfully happy lives, but their lives are not happy at all.

When Faber calls him 'a fool' through the little radio in his ear Montag takes it out and puts it in his pocket. He also thinks that as Faber keeps talking to him that he will become a blend of himself and Faber and from that blending will come a new Montag.

Montag feeling the 'guilt' in his hands and seeing them gloved in blood so that he had to go away from the card game and wash them a number of times reminded me of Lady Macbeth and her washing her hands over and over to remove the guilt.

What did you think of Beatty quoting from books at Montag? He seems to be well read for someone who is against books and burns them. Is he a hypocrit?

"Why," said Montag slowly, "We've stopped in front of my house."

We are into the last part of the book and things are getting exciting, aren't they?

Lights flicked on and house doors opened all down the street, to watch the carnival set up.

Those folks are sure eager for any kind of 'entertainment' even if it is something that involves hurting someone in either a physical or a mental manner. Do you think that folks are like that nowadays? Have folks always been like that?

Earlier in the book Clarisse's house was the only one that was all lit up; the only house with life in it. Now when all the houses on the street are lit, it is the only house that is dark; it stands empty and lifeless. I think it symbolizes the lives of all the people in the lit up houses.

Anyways just a few thoughts to get us going. Feel free to comment on anything that catches your interest in this section -Burning Bright.

Nellie, just my humble opinion, but from everything I have ever read, movies I have watched and just experienced through life, I would say that humans have always been excited by all kinds of spectacle, hurtful and otherwise. Yet most of us are known for our compassion, we are complicated, are we not?

A few things caught my interest: As Montag walked away from Faber's house--"You could feel the war getting ready in the sky that night. ...the way the stars looked...like the enemy discs, and the feeling that the sky might fall upon the city and turn it to chalk dust..."

How prophetic that was! Can we doubt that the US and perhaps Russia and China have the great bombs orbiting our planet right now? In the 50's we constantly were told that General LeMay had his big bombers in the sky at all times, but we don't hear that now. This book was written about 1950--well before Sputnik went up, wasn't it?

Also--a small thing--Faber mentions a vinegar gnat. What is that? Elizabeth

BabsNH, yes we humans sure are complicated.

Do you feel compassion for Montag now that he is at the receiving end of what he himself used to dish out? Or do you find you get a bit of satisfaction to see a fireman being the one who gets his books burned?

Seniornagles, I was thinking the same thing as you about that passage, that it was prophetic. I'm trying to think when Sputnik went up...but I do think the book was written before that.

A vinegar gnat is a fruit fly. Here is a link on an NASA shuttle experiment using same:

Circadian Rhythms in Fruit Flies Experiment

I don't have too much time today, so I will continue with thoughts on the book tomorrow.

Thanks Pedln!

Things are sure coming to a head! Mildred has taken off with her face floured with powder and her mouth gone. Quite a picture that! She has been silenced by all that is happening. Has she? The firemen are breaking the windows in Montag's house so that the fire will burn better. Then what Beatty says to him has caught my interest:

"What a dreadful surprise," said Beatty."For everyone nowadays knows, absolutely is certain, that nothing will ever happen to me. Others die, I go on. There are no consequences and no responsibilities. Except that there are. ...By the time the consequences catch up with you, it's too late, isn't it, Montag?"

I think there is a lot of folks like that nowadays, ones who take no responsibilty for their actions and then are surprised when there are consequences. What do you all think?

Faber keeps asking Montag if he can run away. Montag tells him that he can't because of the Mechanical Hound.

Beatty tells Montag that he must burn his own house. I think that Montag does so gladly. There is nothing there for him any more. The life he lived there is gone and by burning the last vestiges of it he can begin a new life. But first he must get over the shock of losing his old life. He shivers so that it is like an earthquake going through him. Your thoughts on this?

A shocking bit is coming up...

I was caught by surprise when Montag killed Beatty. Yes, Montag was desparate, but I didn't think it was in his character to do something like that.

What do you think about it?

It was almost as if his murder was necessary, Nellie. Montag eradicated the censorship, the authoritative pressures and the hold that it had on his society, with the murder of Betty. "The new broom sweeps clean." It was Montag's coup- de-grace.

"Beatty wanted to die". Strange as it seems, I had the feeling before that he was needlng about the books as if he wanted Montag to get mad enough to react, perhaps he did want him to help him do away with himself. Perhaps all the knowledge he quoted was really part of him, and the job was just something he did. He spouted the party line because that was his job? Surely Montag felt that soon after it happened, and I don't think he was rationalizing, he was being honest. The scariest part of this book to me has always been The Mechanical Hound, but I'm not sure what it represents to me. Anyone else have vibes about that?

He is so ominous, isn't he babs? He represents the predator, the fearful thing that awakens us in our nightmare world. Bradbury writes so well you can almost feel his sharp little teeth sining into your flesh.

ALF, BabsNH, you are both making some thoughtful points. Beatty both had and wanted to die. Without his death Montag would never be free, and I think Beatty wanted to die because of his failure with Montag. All the things Beatty was trying to teach Montag about books and how reading them leads to a lot of unhappiness and that their jobs as firemen were good and honourable fell on deaf ears.

It is Beatty's threath to go and visit Faber that directly causes the reaction in Montag which leads to Beatty's murder. But it is only after Beatty begins to taunt him that Montag turns on the flame.

Then that Mechanical Hound almost gets Montag -in fact it manages to partially inject some drug into his leg before it too succumbs to the flame from Montag's hose. That drug paralyses his leg so that it is hard for him to move.

The Mechanical Hound made me think of something unstoppable, something machinelike, something programmed to do what it must. Predatory,that definitely. I think it exemplified the Authorities in that society -the ones who made sure that the people were 'paralysed' mentally by their TV walls and the loud ads everywhere and by the control of what they could and could not read.

Even though he is in grave danger, hampered by his paralysed leg, Montag goes back to his backyard to see if there any books left in his hiding place!

Now the chase begins! Did you see anything in common with our own time in this?

Just a quick bit today!

I could well sympathize with Montag as he crossed that busy road with the fast moving traffic since I have done the same thing. I think we might all have had a similar experience. Right? I think that Bradbury must have been writing from his own experience here.

Montag is about to discover a whole new life for himself. But first he must escape the hunt!

Apparently in Fahrenheit's society, it was acceptable for fast moving cars to hit and kill people found on the highway. Was Bradbury saying that? Then why the hue and cry when Beaty was killed? Are some murders punishable and some not?

It was probably because he was the chief, the "voice" of this new authority.

Seniornagles, I think the hue and cry after Montag is mainly because of his interest in books; he is seen as a rebel by the state. I do agree with ALF that Beatty being a spokesman, a representative, for the authorities being a factor in the determination of those who are hunting Montag.

Perhaps murdering a wanted man who has gone against the rules of the society he lives in is not punished; but the murder of someone working for that society or someone who is an upstanding citizen will be punished.

Montag goes back to Faber. There he finds out that a new Mechanical Hound has been programmed with his scents to hunt him down and that there are helicopters following it so that the hunt can be televised throughout the city.

I liked their reaction as they suddenly realized that Faber's house was filled with Montag's odours. Faber holds his breath, not wanting to breathe in any of the odours as it might bring the hound his way.

I must not forget that Faber tells Montag about the people who live and travel along the old deserted railroads, and that another war has started.

When he is ready to leave Montag tells Faber to burn everything he has touched and to spray with moth repellant in an attempt to foil the Mechanical Hound. He also asks Faber for some of his old clothes -the smellier the better. It seems like Montag is starting to do some thinking again. I thought he was totally out of it and running purely on his adrenaline and not using his brain at all. But now he is planning ways to escape from those who hunt him.

A few more thoughts coming tomorrow.

Here's a follow-up news story to the one I posted about surveillance cameras in Tampa. I haven't learned to do a clickable url as yet, so I'll copy it out: SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS INCITE PROTEST. By The Associated Press. Tampa, Fla., July 15--Wearing masks and making obscene gestures at police cameras, about 100 people on Saturday protested a new security system that scans faces in the city's night life district to search for suspects in crimes and runaways. "Being watched on a public street is just plain wrong," said May Becker, wearing a bar code sticker on her forehead. Ms. Becker joined demonstrators in the Ybor City district on Saturday night, wearing a sign reading, "We're under house arrest in the land of the free." One protester walked by a camera, gestured obscenely and shouted, "Digitize this!" Other protesters wore gas masks, Groucho Marx glasses and other items to protest the FaceIt scanning system the police are using in Ybor City, a neighborhood that attracts thousands of people on weekend nights. The cameras snap pictures of faces and compare them with 30,000 images in a database that includes runaways and wanted criminals. The system works by analyzing 80 facial points around the nose, cheekbones and eyes. Tampa is the only American city where the police use the technology for routine surveillance, but Virginia Beach is seeking a $150,000 state grant for a similar system. The Tampa police say the system, which has been used in Ybor City the last two weekends, has led to no arrests. Elizabeth

People in the News today from Los Angeles was: At 81, sci fi author Ray Bradbury resembles a one-man film factory rather than a retiree. "I've got five films starting this year" he said in an interview with The Associated Press. Set to go before the cameras are "the Martian Chronicles, Farenheit 451, The Sound of Thunder, The Illustrated Man and the Frost of Fire." He continues by saying, "It's incredible to me that after all these years have gone by, I'm 81, and these things are happening."

I wonder who will star in Farenheit 451's remake. I tried to rent it at a couple of our local blockbusters but couldn't get it.

Seniornagles, interesting article. Thanks for sharing it with us. Is it wrong for there to be surveillance cameras in a public area? What is the difference between cameras watching people on a street and cameras watching people in a store? I don't see any difference. But only the police are looking at the pictures shown by the cameras in Tampa. That is different from in the story in which everyone who is watching their TV walls is seeing the hunt for Montag.

ALF, I like that! Bradbury is 81 and still going strong! If you could choose who would you pick to play Montag in the remake of Fahrenheit 451?

Montag heads for the river. He feels the Mechanical Hound behind him, and can see the hunt through the lit up windows of the houses he passes. The helicopters with their cameras are close. I like this vision of what it will be like when the cameras catch sight of him:

Twenty million Montags running, soon, if the cameras caught him. Twenty million Montags running, running like an ancient flickery Keystone Comedy, cops, robbers, chasers and the chased, hunters and the hunted, he had seen it a thousand times. Behind him now twenty million silently baying Hounds, ricocheted across parlors, three-cushion shooting from right wall to center wall to left wall, gone, right wall, center wall, left wall, gone!

That idea of having everyone open their doors at the same time and then step out and look for Montag. Isn't it creepy in its implications? Those people are so under the control of the authorities that they all obey in an instant!

But Montag is one step ahead of them because he is at the river when all those doors open and all those millions of eyes look out for him. There he changes into Faber's old clothes and lets his own float off down the river.

I like the way Montag floats along on the dark river and that as he thinks about the sun burning up in the sky, he realizes that he must never burn anything again.

When he lands on the opposite shore, the land rushes at him like a tidal wave.

What did you think of the ending?

Nellie, an actor such as Beau Bridges or Jeff,who is capable of showing his vulnerable side, would be the ideal Montag candidate. For Beatty's role, I would pick Wm. Hurt, big, strong and mechanical. "Just the facts, ma'am."

Somehow I cannot believe that the American people can be brought to the conditions of the Fahrenheit society. I cannot but believe that when those millions of people look out of their doors and windows, a huge percentage will say, "Sorry, I can't see a thing."

I'm so glad all those Bradbury movies will be made--it's really exciting. ...........Elizabeth

Nellie, when you were writing your last post, did the image of a white Jeep carrying an O. J. Simpson come to mind? It did mine. Didn't the whole nation watch on their (albeit maybe one) TV screen as the authorities gave chase? I see many indications in our society that we could become the society of Montag, not now with the spirit of our generation and perhaps our children's, but somewhere down the line. I have always liked to think that the human spirit is indomitable, but the older I get the less sure of that I am. I sure am glad that Ray Bradbury is sure of it, 'cause he must be a whole lot smarter than me. I have read other futuristic books in which the outcome is not so hopeful. I am trying to remember the name of one in which the father and son are escaping into the mountains, dodging hordes of displaced and hungry gangs, passing through empty towns, avoiding the "Green police" (environmental soldiers gone bad). I remember being so depressed by it. Has anyone here ever read a book like that? I would love to find it again.

ALF, I like the sound of Jeff or Beau Bridges as Montag and Wm. Hurt as Beatty. I could also see someone like Tom Hanks in the Montag role. I would have Robin Williams as a possible Faber or the actor who played Frank Black in the Millennium series on TV -I think his name is Lance Hedrikson(sp). Who would make a good Mildred? Helen Hunt? We need a sweet young thing to play Clarisse.

I am now wondering who they really got for all the roles

Seniornagles, I don't see Americans of our own time, right now, behaving like the people in the story, and it seems to me that most Americans will always be too independent minded to ever be that obedient towards the authorities. In the story it only seems to be the people living in a single city who are that brainwashed and obedient.

BabsNH, yes that picture of the white jeep with O.J in it came right into my mind too when I read of the cameras following the Mechanical Hound as it hunted Montag. Those books you mention about the father and son escaping to the mountains after a big disaster sound familiar to me. Was the series called Survival 2000 by any chance?

What did I think of the ending? I found it bleak indeed. The whole novel was more depressing than I remembered it to be because before I was looking for the story and this time I was paying attention to what was being said. Thank you very much for hosting, Nellie; these book discussions mean a great deal to me. ......elizabeth

Seniornagles, I thank you for being part of the discussion.

What did you think of the authorities using someone as a scapegoat for Montag? It was one way to get rid of someone who did not fit in, and it seemed that people who went out for walks did not fit into that society.

I did not find the ending depressive. All those people who had memorized at least one book or part of a book, who had become the book and the author; they spoke to me of the indomability of the human spirit. The ending told me that no matter what type of freedom is taken away from people, they will find a way to get it back.

Do you think that Bradbury was saying in this book that as we read the books become a part of us?

Perhaps the only depressing part of the ending was the total destruction of the city where Montag had spent most of his life so far. Although that destruction would leave Montag totally free from that old life; free to live his new life.

I think this discussion is pretty well over. I'll leave it up for a couple days more just in case someone has some more to say on the book.

Thank you all for being such good participants

Bravo and thank you Nellie. You've done a wonderful job with his discussion and I've enjoyed it immensely. I loved the book and hope to read more of Bradbury's stories. I like that. The books that we read become a bit of ourselves. I do believe that and can not tell you what a wonderful opportunity this provides all of us. We're able to read, ponder and share so much more by doing it together.

I have one last thought here, Nellie. Should we compare Montag to the Phoenix, the legendary bird that rose out of the fiery ashes, stonger and more pure? The parallel can be drawn that Montag, despite all of the trials and tribulations he suffered , would rebound as a stronger and a better leader.

Thank you ALF!

I like the thought of Montag being like a phoenix and rising from the flames of his trials and tribulations. He was becoming his own man at the end and becoming a productive part of the new society he had just entered into. A far cry from the man who became a book burning fireman because it was expected of him and who obeyed whoever was authority over him and who did very little thinking on his own.

I have the Martian Chronicles by Bradbury and was thinking that maybe later on we could give that book a try as a discussion topic. What do you think?

Nellie, I am curious. You mentioned that it seemed that only the people in that one city were so controlled. What did I miss? I always assumed that it was at least the whole country, maybe the world, maybe NOT? I don't recall reading anything that specified. Did you? I know that I do miss important details at times.

BabsNH, I thought that because when Montag escapes from the city and floats across the river he ends up with those people who travel along the old railroads who are not under government control and from what their leader Granger says there are lots of small towns and villages where people are also free to live their lives as they wish.

There are other cities where people are controlled as they were in Montag's city.

In the cities people are fearful of books and out in the countryside are people who literally are books. What an interesting story there would be in the two groups of people coming together.

One last question to think about: If you could memorize and become one book, which book would that be?

A difficult choice, but Grey's Anatomy ............elizabeth

An interesting choice, Seniornagles and not an easy book to memorize, I would think.

I am stuck between three books and one is a trilogy. I'm thinking that my choice might be Grimm's Fairy Tales since The Lord of the Rings is really three books and wouldn't count.

I would stay with a discussion of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings forever; couldn't we declare them one book in four sections? I wonder how many of us read them to our children? Is there a place in SeniorNet where polls are taken in the general population? At such a place the lurkers who do not post would probably state their preferences too. I lurk in places where I don't post. elizabeth

Seniornagles, I would love to discuss Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. Maybe I should find out if it is possible. I lurk a lot too. I don't have the time to take part in every discussion.

I bought the Hobbitt last year because my grandson wanted to read it with me. We never get to do that as he was too busy with other planned activities. I still have it and would love to read it. Count me in.

Nellie, that's a great question-- which book would I want to memorize? Oh dear. should it be something educational for future generations to learn from? should it be a Shakesperean sonnet? I must ponder this.

ALF, you could also memorize and be a book that is read just for the pleasure of it. I'm curious to see what you pick.

The whole 'people as books' concept put forth by Bradbury in the story is interesting because it injects the human to human interaction back into the reading of a book. Perhaps it reminds us that behind a book is another human being.

I cannot choose one book. The current book I am reading is always my favorite. Another club I belong to has chosen The Lord of Rings to be read about 3 books from now. Believe it or not, I have never read it, and of my children I believe only my son did. I am looking forward to it, and I hope that a discussion will take place here.

I am currently finishing Michener's "The Source", and this is my third reading of it since the '50s. I love the history of the religions, fact or fiction. I don't know thatit would be the one I would want to memorize though. I really would have to ponder that for quite a while if I actually were to do it.

Honestly Nellie, I am stumped! Like babs I lean toward the historical side in my choice but which one? Which marvelous book, to choose?

Babs, ALF, it is very hard to choose just one book. I have one picked out and then a dozen more pop into my mind -but I stick to my choice of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Although I would have a hard time memorizing the whole thing when push came to shove.

Ha-hahah- isn't that the truth? I have trouble memorizing my own phone # anymore.

ALF, I have to make notes of who says what to me in a post otherwise by the time I reach this text box I'll have forgotten what I am replying to. And yet I can still remember my student number from university and I last made use of it back in 1977. It's the short term memory that is going or has gone -more going, I think

You seem pretty sharp to me Nellie.