Lesson Before Dying, A ~ Ernest Gaines ~ 2/03 ~ Fi Export

Welcome to

Set in a small Cajun community in the late 1940s, A Lesson Before Dying is an "enormously moving" ("Los Angeles Times") novel of one man condemned to die for a crime he did not commit and a young man who visits him in his cell. In the end, the two men forge a bond as they both come to understand the simple heroism of resisting--and defying--the expected. Winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award for Fiction. ---From B&N and from the Publisher...

"This majestic, moving novel is an instant classic, a book that will be read, discussed ad taught beyond the rest of our lives."
--- from The Chicago Tribune

IF WE MUST DIE

If we must die, let it not be like hogs
Hunted and penned in an inglorious spot,
While round us bark the mad and hungry dogs,
Making their mock at our accursed lot.
--- from If We Must Die by Claude McKay (1919)

Interesting Links

Interview with Ernest Gaines
History, Stories, Music of the Great Migration
More about the author
Louisiana Food Traditions

Reading Schedule

Feb. 1 . . . . . . . . Chapters 1 through 10
Feb. 8 . . . . . . . . Chapters 11 through 21
Feb. 16 . . . . . . . Chapters 22 to the end

Questions to Ponder

Jefferson isn't guilty of any murders, yet he's convicted. How would the story be different if he had been guilty? How would Wiggins have approached his tutoring differently? How much is "innocent until proven guilty" really practiced in America?

Wiggins lives in a world where much of what needs to be said gets communicated with looks, not words, and never gets spoken of directly. Why is that? How does all that indirection affect Wiggins? And would the communication be freer if the story were set today?

Wiggins believes that a black man in America has no options but anger and violence, but Vivian disagrees. What does she want? Who has a more accurate picture of life for black men today?

"A Lesson Before Dying" is, among other things, a Christian allegory. Who among the characters plays the part of Jesus Christ? Who plays the part of Judas Iscariot? Of Pontius Pilate? Of Simon Peter? Of Paul?

Much of the story centers on the racism Wiggins and Jefferson face. How do different white characters view Wiggins and Jefferson? How does their behavior make a difference? And how would Jefferson's story be played out today?

Why hasn't Wiggins left the plantation quarter? Would the ties to community be different today?

Comments? Write Lorrie or Ann

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Readers' Guide for this discussion

Hi, Everybody:

Ann and I would like to invite you all to join us in discussing this absolutely marvelous book by Ernest Gaines. Everyone is welcome here.

First of all, we have to get up a quorum---that would be three people besides the leaders, and so if you feel you can join in here, Post right here and let us know!

Lorrie

Lorrie and Ann, I have checked with my Libary and they do have A Lesson Before Dying by Ernest Gaines at this time but it is to early to read it so hope they have it in Jan.

Ginger

Ginger, I am so galad you will be joining us. In case you are interested, Amazon has several used copies of the book at really low prices. If you click on to this address, look over on the right where it says new and used.

A Lesson Before Dying

Lorrie

Its a red letter day in the Alden household. I found my copy of the book!!!! Yaaaaaay!

Good Heavens, Ann! You mean you, as a Co-Host, couldn't find your copy of the very book we'll be discussing??? I am appalled! Hahaha

That's great!

Lorrie

is a copy of "A Lesson Before Dying". I started it and got hung up on the lead character's teaching style. Will find it, dust it off, and try again.....

Please don't count me in the quorum though, as I am unreliable in posting......

That's okay, Catbird. I do hope you find your book, and also hope thaat you might be around if and when we do a discussion here. Either way, it s nice to see your name!

Lorrie

Lorrie/Ann - I read this one awhile back and plan to join you in February.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

Great, Sarah! We're getting close to a quorum, even though Catbird says we can't count her.

Lorrie

You can count me, Lorrie! I'm like everyone else--somewhere around my house is a copy of the book (that is, if I haven't given it away). Anyway, I'll be here.

Well, Susan!! That's great! We now have Ginger, Sarah, Susan, and Catbird(?) who posted they would be joining us, and with myself and Ann, my gracious co-host, we now have a quorum!!

Now we can "prettify" our heading, set a difinite date, (Feb. 1) and move this up to the "future" announcements.

Lorrie

Catbird Welcome aboard. I sure do hope you join in. I am looking forward to this discussion.

Sarah "Alright", I am I am pleased to see you here.

AH Yes here is our Susan my roomie in DC I know you will be a Great addition to this discussion as your inteligents and love of books I know well.

I will try very hard to keep up with All You teachers.

Student, Ginger Smile.

Lorrie and Ann, Our Quorum has been accounted for and is listed, HA Ha I had better put my own name down.

Okay, I will be consulting with my partner, Ann, and we will be back here to get your opinion on the scheduling of this book, etc. Hang in there! Ginger, you were mentioned first in the post above! You'll be among friends here.

Lorrie

Me, too, I'll be here as I've read the book and thought it just wonderful! Is it going to be in February? I'll get a copy from the Library then. Looking forward to this one.

ELLA!!! WONDERFUL! This is very nice, we are getting our own little group going here. Yes, it is February, Ella. You and Ann can keep us all posted on how the Buckeyes (?) are doing, between posts, seeing as how you are neighbors, practically, Haha

Ann and I will have a sort of schedule made up soon.

Lorrie

Ha! What I thought was A Lesson Before Dying on my bookshelf was As I Lay Dying (Faulker)! I must have given it away--I'll check it out of the library since I actually have already read this one.

Oh, MMeW, I love it! Well, you were close! But do check it out of your library and join us here on Feb.1, 2003! This should be a good discussion.

Lorrie and Ann It was a nice day here today so I got out and bought a lesson before Dying and a couple others so may post a bit hopefully if not I will be reading every post in here. I did think of going to Fl. but with these Books to read guess I will just stay in the house and Enjoy. Smile.

Love ya both, Ginger

Just finished reading " A Lesson Before Dying" by Ernest Gaines. A very thought provoking book. I hope to participate in the discussion.

Hi there frugal it is good to see you here.

Good for you, Frugal! And thank you, dear Ginger, for responding to posters so quickly. I can see we will have a very congenial group posting here. Ann and I are both grateful that you all are responding.

Lorrie

Here are some E-Cards that Senior Net has for us to use.

Senior Net E-cards for Your Enjoyment

Here is My Favorite Christmas Card.

Ginger's Card For Each and Everone who posts here and those that Obsever also

Love, Ginger

Hello. May I join you in February for this discussion? I read "A Lesson Before Dying" this fall for a once-a-month book discussion group. We all liked it.

Callie

CallieK, Well Hello there it is so nice to see You Here.

HEY CALLIE! We are so glad you will be joining us! Thank you for posting this information---see you in February. Check in here now and then for any changes in schedule, etc.

Lorrie

Hi, GINGER.
Thanks, LORRIE. I've subscribed to this discussion, so will be keeping up with things between now and Feb. 1.

MERRY CHRISTMAS/HAPPY HOLIDAYS

Lorrie,

Read this one a while ago, Wouldn't mind revisiting it. Will look for my copy and try to pop in when February rolls in.

Meg R

CALLIE K, AND MEGR!! It'S SO GOOD TO SEE YOU POSTING HERE. we will be back soon with a schedule to follow and a new, remodeled heading for this wonderful book! See you there!

Lorrie

Great luck here! I was able to order the book from half.com and it will hopefully arrive before Feb 1. I'm so excited.

I now have the book too.

All right, already! This is great, we are starting to get the desired circle of readers. Ann and I will be looking for your names!

Lorrie

I have the book, and will try to read it and join in the discussion. It's a relatively short book, so think I can manage it. Recently I saw the movie--certainly very thought-provoking.

Appropos the poem quoted above, I immediately thought of the following which we studied in highschool.

So live, that when thy summons comes to join
The innumerable caravan, which moves
To that mysterious realm, where each shall take
His chamber in the silent halls of death,
Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night,
Scourged to his dungeon, but, sustained and soothed
By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave
Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch
About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams.

The last verse of 'Thanatopsis', William Cullen Bryant

As I typed this, I began to wonder how I can reconcile that with 'Do Not go Gentle into that Good Night .... Rage, rage against the dying of the light'

Perhaps the first applies more to those dying in old age, and the other to those dying young'

Jeanlock, what a ovely, lovely poem! And how well it seems to fit in right here! Thank you so much. I have copied it and will put it also in our just-ending discussion of "the Lovely Bones." In that one, the death of a young murdered girl is mourned.

thank you so much and I hope we will see you in the discussion.

Lorrie

Lorrie--

If you're interested in the complete poem, I found it on Google by typing in Poem Thanatopsis.

Incidentally, I do believe that the word 'google' has entered the vernacular much as did kleenex and (for many years) frigidaire. And certainly xerox.

Isn't it absolutely amazing the amount of trivia that we manage to accumulate every day? I's like looking something up in an encyclopedia----how many of us can stop with just one visit?

Lorrie

I have acquired the book from our library and am anxious to join you in this discussion -- but actually do little more than lurk and learn.

I have ordered the book on line from our library service. I should get it before the start of the discussion. Count me in.

Carolyn

Great! Time flies, and Saturday is fast approaching.

Lorrie

Lorrie, I sent out a reminder to the people who were on Ginger's list of participants yesterday.

I have an email to pick up my book from the library nearest me today. I will indeed be in time for this discussion. It is so nice to be able to get a book in time for a discussion.

Carolyn

I have my book from the library. I would like to join the discussion or just lurk. Thank you.

HARRIET!!

WELCOME, WELCOME! I'm so glad you have the book, and do join in on the discussion any time. We're getting a nice group here.

Lorrie

My library came through today, too. Unexpectedly at that. I'm so happy to have a shot at joining a discussion again. Whee - here we go (almost)!

That's wonderful, Diane! We will look forward to hearing from you.

Lorrie

I've ordered (reserved it) this book through my local library but have not yet been informed that it's free and ready to pick up. Hope it's soon.

Bobbie

Don't fret, Bobbicee! Just lurk around here for a bit until your book comes, but don't hesitate to join in the discussion if the mood hits you.

Lorrie

I have subbed so will read the comments, and may comment, but would prefer to read the pertinent chapters first.

Bobbie

Yes, here I am, at 11:47pm on the 31st of January commenting on this book. Just wanted to get a few things said, since Ms Lorrie has asked me to comment first. How did she put that? Age before?? Noo, that wasn't it, was it? Oh well, here I am and looking forward to this discussion.
First of all, welcome to all who are joining us here for our discussion of "Lesson Before Dying". Whether you lurk or comment, we are glad that you wanted to be with us.
From the very first sentence of this book, I was hooked on Ernest Gaines way of writing and found myself comparing him to some of the modern classic authors, such as Harper Lee, author of "To Kill A Mockingbird". The writing is so smooth and easy but succinct as it takes us to a different time of our country's life. From the moment that I met Jefferson, Grant, Tante Lou and Ms Emma, I was taken into a world that was filled with pain but also with love and pride. The way the two old ladies order Grant around, as if he was 12 and better behave while they decide what can and will be done for Jefferson before he goes to the electric chair. They were in charge of this project.
A quote from another area says,
Background: The reader is summoned to confront the entire bitter history of black people in the South. This book is about the ways in which people declare the value of their lives in a time and place in which those lives seemingly count for nothing. It is about the ways in which the imprisoned may find freedom even in the moment of their death. Gaines addresses the basic predicament of what it is to be a human being, a creature striving for dignity in a universe that often denies it.
The author, Gaines, explains his way of writing and the why:

In his own words: "I write for the African-America youth in the country, especially the South, so that they can know who they are and where they came from and take pride in it . . . (And for) the white youth in this country, and especially the South, because unless he knows his neighbor of three hundred years, he only knows half his history."

Hello, Ann, and greetings to you all! Like my partner says, I welcome all of you and hope we hear from lots and lots of people on these pages..................................

When I first looked over this book, I thought, Oh, no, another book about THE RACE PROBLEM! Another book by another angry black author who wants to berate me for being white, and instill the usual feeling of guilt.

But this book is different. From the beginning, as was my partner here, I was drawn to these simple people, and after reading a few chapters I could see what Mr. Gaines was writing about, a "human being striving for dignity in a universe that often denies it." In understated yet concise words, he makes his point all too well.

****************************************************************

Interestingly, Ann has provided a fascinating link up above, called "Traditional Louisiana Foods", I believe. The writer, Courtenay Ramsey, believes there is a correlation between the people in the region and food, in general. He says"The African American community in "A Lesson Before Dying" has foodways closely associated with the Cajun and Creole Cultures in Louisiana. Louisiana's foodways reflect the cultural diversity of the area and its regional Identity.

He then goes on to say, "Definitely, Gaines, like the Cajuns as seen by Gutierrez, seems to find identity in both the region in which he grew up and in the foods which he eats. Gutierrez comments further on the relationship between ethnicity, foodways, and the regional identity: "Regional and ethnic labels used by Cajuns and non-Cajuns indicate that Cajun identity blends will regional identity. . . . Cajuns have a strong sense of place and often describe themselves as uncomfortable or unhappy when away from the region for a long time"

I thought this was interesting, probably because I have such a fondness for Cajun food, like all the gumbo, shrimp dishes and rice and beans I have consumed in the past.

Sorry about this long post, I promise I will keep them shorter from here on.

Lorrie

Jeanlock signing in. I'll try to get the assigned reading done before Monday, after which I'll participate.

Hi, Jeanlock! Welcome to our discussion, and join us whenever you can.

Lorrie

Reading the first few chapters, I am struck by the fact that this novel is not just about a man who is being tried for murder and then, found guilty. It touches on a question I have asked myself, and I think the rest of society, especially the older ones ask themselves, perhaps, everyday. How do we die with dignity? What is a dignified death and what is not?

I am anxious to see how Grant will help a condemned man face death without negativity. I think it is wonderful how his godmother sees beyond the present, the announcement of eltrocution, and makes herself think of a remedy. She looks over the past and into the future, what a wide leap!

Lorrie, I thought it was so interesting that you brought up "Foodways" first. I hadn’t been to the library yet, so I pulled up Foodways. What a great article, and particularly pertinent to me since I spent all day yesterday preparing dinner for a group of retired French teacher friends (another culture that revolves around food). I’ll be sure to be more alert to the food not only as physical sustenance, but as nourishment for the soul, and even Jesus symbolism (the Last Supper).

And what do most diet counselors say? That you eat when you’re not physically hungry because your soul is hungry for something (besides food). That if you can discover what that is, you won’t overeat.

Meanwhile, I have taken the dogs to the park and stopped at the library. So let the games begin!

Susan: Do you suppose that's where African-Americans get the expression, "soul food?" I often wondered just what that meant.

Interesting piece, isn't it? I don't know where Ann found it, but it certainly fits in here, doesn't it?

Lorrie

I have only read four chapters, but I need to discuss some things. Those first few chapters give us a microcosm of the black experience in the not-too-distant past, all those little things that white Americans don’t really think about. Grant, despite a university education, is teaching in a little church school, where they need to "lean on" parents to provide wood to heat the school. Tante Lou, Miss Emma and Grant have to use the kitchen entrance to see Mr. Henri. In the "quarter," there are no phones until Bayonne, 13 miles away. Indeed Jefferson had never dialed a phone.

The defense attorney resorts to categorizing Jefferson as a hog, an animal not worthy of executing, "without a modicum of intelligence," "a thing that acts on command," since that might be the only argument that would appeal to his jury of 12 white peers. (7)

Single-minded Miss Emma has to beg at Mr. Henri’s, while he and Louis Rougon have their drinks, all the more humiliating for Grant since he knew how humiliating it was (if that makes any sense). The cues of body language: "He was finished talking to me. Now he wanted me to look away. I lowered my eyes." "I shifted my eyes, and I didn’t look at him again." (21-22)

And then when Miss Emma has the nerve to ask him when he might speak to the sheriff, the pause, the lowering of his glass: "Whenever I see him, that’s when." (23)

These are things that blacks at that time accepted. Is it any wonder that Maya Angelou to this day is suspicious of whites. On Oprah just recently, she said she had no desire to know any white relatives who might be descended from former slave owners.

Yet I don’t see this book as polemic at all, just a window to a different world.

I remember as a child of 10 in Galveston, Texas, taking the bus into town with my friend. I offered my seat to an old black woman, and she refused it, finally saying that if I would sit in her lap she would take it. Imagine my embarrassment at having to ride into town on this woman’s lap, never realizing that she couldn’t sit there unless there were a white child on her lap.

Susan, how sad that we ever lived that way and accepted the situation as normal. For me, growing up in the midwest, I thought we were pretty open to change and accepting of the different cultures in my hometown. Last weekend, I met a nurse who had lived in my hometown briefly in the 90's and found it so race concious that she chose to leave and look elsewhere for work. I was amazed!

Were you struck by the openness of Grant's explosion in the classroom when he explained to the children what would happen to Jefferson?

So, we have the settings before us and actors are on that set, most of their costumes well described and this book goes forward. And, again, I can't put it away. This makes the second time around. I am paying more attention to it this time.

The foodways of the book were the first things that I noticed(in my first reading). The old godmother of Jefferson, preparing just the things that she knew he liked. Trying to gain his interest so that he would listen to Grant.

Another point in the book is schoolteacher/lover of Grant, Vivian. She wants him to stay only if he wants to do so. You must want to stay here, she says. Or, you must be conciously aware making a desicion to leave and take responibility for that. Don't be blamin' anyone else for your choices? Is that what she means?

Religious imagery: I almost see this as Grant’s Gethsemane. He does not want to do this thing with Jefferson ("Who am I? God?"), but the inevitability of it is drummed home. There is a force at work beyond his control. And this is not the first time, since his "escape" to LA didn’t work either—here he is, where he doesn’t want to be, doing what he doesn’t want to do, for reasons he doesn’t understand, or hasn’t come to terms with.

So he makes excuses: "How do I know what a man is? … Why not let the hog die without knowing anything?"

This book was one of the saddest books I have ever read. I think because it forces us to look at two issues we would rather not think about. One is the death penalty and the other is racism.

To refer to Jefferson as a Hog to me was typical of the attitude of the day. I doubt whether a white prisoner would have been referred to as a hog no matter what heinous crime he had committed. There has always been the feeling by many racists that colored people are not human they are on the level of an animal.

Probably Jefferson did not have anything to do at all with the murders. There is evidence to support this. He was not believed because he was black. He was a simple person who accepted a ride with the wrong people and became caught up in a criminal action by the two people he rode with. His crime was he became desperate from fear knowing that he was caught up in these murders and his explanation would not be believed. Therefore he went in to self preservation mode and stole money to probably enable him to escape and save his life.

I was brought up in a racist family. Most of the members of my family would deny vehemently that they are racist. They live in a city where there are few brown skinned people. It was only when I moved out of this city and went to live in a multi ethnic community that I realised I was also racist. I probably live in a country where there is the least overt racism probably in the world. However covert racism is alive and well.

This morning is trash morning so I do not have time to write any more right now. I will be back later.

Carolyn

I've read three chapters, and coming on top of the shuttle I'm getting very depressed. But I'll try to do the rest by tomorrow.

Hi all -Lorrie, Anne, MmeW, Carolyn, Anneofavonlean (I thought you were from Prince Edward Island - in Canada when I first saw your name tag!), jeanlock and Hats! Hope I haven't missed anyone.

Just finished reading last 9 pages. Don't think I want to respond to 3 Q's posted above yet. Most of them seem to presuppose a greater knowledge than that supplied in first 10 chapters. We don't even meet Jefferson until half way thru Chapter 9!

The bulk of these initial chapters focus on the teacher and narrator, Grant Wiggins.

An aside: I first read this 10 years ago and missed this entirely! There's a guy out of one of the major, east coast, ivy-league universities whose real name is Grant Wiggins! In fact I heard him speak a few times in 1990-91. He was on the forefront of the authentic assessment movement and the "Making Thinking Visible" approach to help students to "see" the steps/stage of critical thinking more concretely. He really was quite interesting. Don't know how I missed Mr. Gaines name choice for his main character back then! Wonder if he knew or knew of the contemporary Grant Wiggins - and if so, it's really ironic that Ernest Gaines has given his "teacher" the same name because Gaines' Wiggins (in these first 10 chapters) is the total antithesis of the contemporary one!!!

Our Grant Wiggins isn't someone that I like too much in these chapters! He's in his 30's, still living with Momma-substitute - Tante Lou, "messin' around " with a married lady, and demonstrates absolutely NONE of the characteristics, skills or professionalism that one expects a real teacher to possess. After watching him abuse his poor students, I felt complete pity for Jefferson who would be forced to face this monster by his aunt & Aunt Emma! Our Grant Wiggins is a bully, is irresponsible, is totally lacking in self-direction or conviction - except when it comes to his perceived snubs/insults by others.

"Hog" - Yes, this reference is disturbing, but I found it even more upsetting when Jefferson's defense attorney repeatedly referred to Jefferson as "that thing" over and over and over again. "Thing" is an inanimate object that can experience no sensations of pain, pleasure etc. I found that lawyer's repeated reference to his client as a "THING" much much more offensive than his analogy that electrocuting Jefferson would be the same as electrocuting a "hog." It's this swine reference that Aunt Emma latches on to. It's the one word that penetrates through her numbness at Jefferson's trial and it's the one word that motivates her to have Grant teach Jefferson. The other "hog" references are basically dominoes tumbling after the catalyst of Miss Emma's reaction. What do you thinK?

Don't think that we should start making generalizations yet about race, possible major themes or even recurring ones yet. We're just in the beginning stages of this novel. How 'bout we look at the specifics of what the author's given in these chapters a little more carefully - 'cause there really is a wealth of riches present? What do you think?

FYI: Please don't hesitate to disagree with anything I've said. I tend to write & talk to try to make sense for myself. Have absolutely NO problem with anyone questioning, challenging anything I say. It's the back & forth business that helps to make these discussions richer and our own understandings more meaningful!

Grant Wiggins is also a product of his time. He is in his comfort zone in this little plantation area but at the same time he longs to get away. His granny brought him up and he feels responsible for her too as she is now on her own. He allows her to baby him, boss him and look after him as that is what she is happiest doing. He loves his Granny very much and feels obliged to obey her. She is a very strong woman and as we can see she does not take no for an answer.

As for his bullying tactics with the students. My mother has told me bullying by teachers was very prevalent in the thirties and forties and even into the fifties. I do not think he is a nasty person but just overcome with frustration at the lack of equipment and the disregard held for African American education at the time. We must admit the school was very poorly equipped. The children did not even have desks for heaven sakes! He was the sole teacher with only teachers aides to help him. I don't think I would feel very relaxed in his situation. Of course bullying is wrong but we must look at it in the context of the era the novel is set in.

Carolyn

I can remember in the sixties our geography teacher would hurl a blackboard duster at anyone who was talking and not paying attention. This did not cause us to hate him , he was a brilliant teacher but we learnt to be on our guard and duck real quickly!

Hello, MegR:

That's a very terse opinion of the schoolteacher character, and I just wanted to say that no wonder he would be considered a poor teacher. Look at what he had to deal with, or should I say didn't have. To try to teach in those horrid conditions would be an heroic effort. And I don't think his "abuse" of his pupils was so uncommon in those days.

I do agree with you that the word "thing" as applied to a human being is worse than being called a hog. It's hard to imagine that such rhetoric that the defense counsel gave out could have been admitted in a trial, even then and even under those circumstances.

Susan:

All those things that you mentioned, that African-Americans withstood in those days, are supposedly past now, but I have been told by my black friends that the attitudes like that still exist in some parts of the country. Your story of sitting on an old black woman's lap so she could sit was very expressive.

Carolyn:

You're right! Two of the most controversial subjects of our time!

Ann:

I will be anxious to see how the relationship between Grant and the lovely Vivian will develop.

Lorrie

"I stood back from the table and looked at the both of them. I clamped my jaws so tight the veins in my neck felt as if they would burst. I wanted to scream at my aunt; I was screaming inside. I had told her many, many times how much I hated this place and all I wanted to do was get away. I had told her I was no teacher, I hated teaching, and I was just running in place here. But she had not heard me before, and I knew that no matter how loud I screamed, she would not hear me now." (The end of chapter two)

I like Grant. He states his opinion clearly and loudly. He hates teaching. He feels like he is in a rut. He hates the place where he lives. I think Grant is dealing with so much. When he says, "I was screaming inside," It makes my stomach turn over. I can feel his pain. This man is hurting, just like the rest of the black community where he lives. He is really enslaved. Grant has never experienced his own freedom. He's stuck, and no one can hear him screaming.

My son is a transmission expert. I remember his frustration when he could not find a job putting in transmissions. Then, when he found a job, here in Chattanooga, the pay was too small. I could see his pain. I could hear him screaming even when he didn't speak. It was written all over him.

Finally, he moved to Memphis. Now, he is doing the job he wants to do and making the money he wants to make and going to college. I don't know if this story fits, but I understand the fact that Grant is smothering. I give him credit for continuing to respect his Tante Lou and Miss Emma. The problem is that he is a walking dead person. I think that he and Jefferson will have a lot in common.

I remember a time when the only fields open to black people were teaching or preaching. Lollll. Suppose you didn't like either field! That's the way Grant feels. He thinks of himself as a square peg in a round hole.

Hattie

I'm printing out the current comments, and will read them later. Meanwhile, a few thoughts of my own.

Hog (Hawg): Would it have been more or less offensive to use 'dog'? And it made me think of the Redskins fans who proudly refer to themselves as Hogettes. And my mother's maiden name: Hogue, originally spelled Hogg. Not hard to see why they changed it.

Wiggins is obviously a very angry person. And I'm wondering if he becomes less so as the book progresses.

This book hits three of my 'hottest' spots: The Deep South and racism; the indignities of separate but equal. It was separate all right, but certainly not equal. My first term paper in college was about Negro Education in America, and I was really stunned to find out just exactly what 'separate but equal' meant in the south. In my school (1940-44) we had a small negro population, and one of the boys was my debate partner. We used to meet in Youngstown at the library because we couldn't meet in either of our homes. Much like in American Dreams last night except that there was no confrontation; we both knew it was impossible.

And the death penalty. I've had a horror of that all my life and find it painful to read or watch things in which it figures.

So, the book --so far- depresses me. I really have to keep reminding myself that things are different now; but wonder just HOW different.

HAT: Where do you live in Tenn.? I lived in Kingsport for a year early in my first marriage. I have 2 sons who are transmission experts. Does your son find it difficult or challenging to cope with all the automation built into cars now?

Hi JeanLock,

I live in Chattanooga. I think my son has spoken to his dad about the new cars and transmissions. Truthfully, I can't remember any details. Michael never wanted to be just a mechanic. He wanted to be a transmission expert, and he does love it. At the moment, he talks a lot about benefits. His dad and I have helped him to see the importance of benefits, and he can see that himself.

I did find your thoughts about education interesting. I went to school in Philadelphia while my husband went to school here in Chattanooga. When we discuss racial experiences, our experiences are really different.

I think the book is sad from the standpoint that Jefferson is electrocuted. Probably, today, he would have spent time in prison, but I don't think he would have gotten the death penalty. I think more evidence would have been taken from the scene. Unfortunately, I think he was given the death penalty simply because he was black. If Jefferson had taken the stand, who would have listened to him? He had been labeled as "a man without a modicum of intelligence?"

Sadly, the way Jefferson is looked upon is the same way in which all black people were looked upon at that time. Their voices were not heard. Jefferson had no one to stand in his defense.

As I read the book, I tend not to see it as just a black and white issue, but a book that could be written about the Native Americans, the Irish, Jewish people, the Chinese, the Indians and other races. I am slowly reading A Fine Balance and learning about the Untouchables.

I think A Lesson Before Dying is about plain old intolerance.

Hattie

Cane River is another good book about the way black people suffered during and after the Civil War. Cane River tells more about the suffering of black women through generation after generation. Lalita Tademy is writing another book telling about her father's experiences.

Hattie--

I don't know. It just seems to me that the whole story is about the degradation of the blacks in the rural south. Perhaps you could relate it to Indians, etc., but you'd have to rewrite the book.

I feel that Grant's seeming cruelty is simply his frustration about the fact that no matter what he does to try to educate these children, it really won't do any good. There will be no more opportunity for them than there has been for him in his own town. He's just a bunch of seething frustration and resentment--especially when he manages to outright refuse to observe some of the symbols of subservience he's expected to follow. Always saying 'sir', etc. Emptying his pockets at the prison, etc.

JeanLock,

Your right. I got off the subject and started rambling. It is just about the black situation at that time. And I do see Grant as totally frustrated. Grant is just in a hard situation.

Hattie

HATS--

I think I did say before that I had seen the last part of the movie, but without the front half I didn't have all the facts.

However, based on what I did see, and the way the book begins, I suspect that the 'lesson' gets learned by both Grant and Jefferson. BTW, any symbolism in those names?

You all have talked about Grant's apparent disillusionment with the status of his people according to those times. He is cynical, somewhat bitter, and despairing of any of his pupils ever "making it" anywhere but on this particular plantation.

Nowhere is this feeling more evident than on Page 62 (paperback) as Grant stands by the fence watching the boys cut up the wood "And I thought to myself. What am i doing? Am I reaching them at all? They are acting exactly as the old men did earlier. they are fifty years younger, maybe more, but doing the same thing those old men did who never attended school a day in their lives. Is it just a vicious circle? Am I doing anything?"

Incidentally, has anyone compared this novel with "To Kill a Mockingbird?" One big difference----in Mockingbird an attempt is made to clear a young black boy from the charge of murder, thus proving his innocence. In this novel the question to deal with is how to endure the execution of a young black boy already found guilty. To teach him how to face what is left of his life with a little dignity and pride of self. I believe that is the most prominent theme here.

Lorrie

Hi Lorrie and JeanLock and all,

I have changed my feelings, somewhat, about Grant. I am reading the chapters slowly and had not read the school scene. I think MegR talked about Grant's anger in the classroom. After reading about his actions towards the children, I think he displayed too much anger. No matter what supplies he did not have, I don't think he had the right to hit the children and yell at them.

He knew their backgrounds. One little girl is described as having a tyrant for a father. These children were not from happy homes or from homes where they could expect dinner on the table every night. I don't think that they needed to bare Grant's adult burdens. The children seemed to literally be afraid of him.

I found it interesting that the schoolroom was the same room in which the church services were held. This made me think that education and religion are sacred, holy. All the more reason why Grant should have displayed a gentleness to the children.

There is no way I would put up with a teacher acting like that towards my children. Thank goodness, in my school, I never had a teacher to strike me. I think Grant's anger is misplaced.

JeanLock, I never thought of the symbolism in the names. I would like to know more about that.

Lorrie, I have thought about To Kill a Mockingbird. It is one of my favorite books. Of course, it is another sad story about oppression and discrimination.

After reading the story of Grant's relationship with his old teacher, right there in the same church/school room, I felt the desperation and frustration that he lives with all the time. Also, I felt the same about his berating of his aunt about sending him to college, urging him to improve himself but then expecting him to come back to the quarter and teach these children. She must have felt that he owed this to the quarter or to the people.
His old teacher, Matthew Antoine, says, "You'll see that it'll take more than five and one half months, to wipe away--peel--scrape away the blanket of ignorance that has been plastered and replastered over those brains in the past three hundred years. You'll see." Its seems like the blacks living on the plantation will never change because they don't know anything better. If you are beaten down for long enough, you give up and just accept your life. When one does go away, he/she doesn't do well because no one has prepared them for the outside.

Another point that Grant makes to his old teacher about the University is, "They tell me how to succeed in the South as a colored man. I need to know about life." And Antoine urges him to go away from the plantation to learn about life. He says that the people who live there are dead. I wonder if the families who stayed there considered themselves dead and beyond help? And, why did Antoine stay? Because its the only place that he(a Creole) can feel superior and everyone needs to feel important. He says, "Especially for the whites and the near whites." Superiority becomes all he has.

Yes, Ann, the whole attitude of the former teacher influences Gran quite a bit, I think. Still, it appears that Grant still has a feeling of responsibility toward his people and their circumstances. On page 3, he says, "I was not there, yet I was there." – page 3(paperback)

This quote characterizes Grant as a type of person who accepts his role in the society in which he lives and feels a responsibility towards those around him. Although he was not present at the trial, it has become personal to him and the remorse he feels for the situation could be none the more real if he had been there.

It seems as though he is saying "Like it or not, it's what I have to do."

Lorrie

I think Grant could not bear to go to the trial. Some people find absenting themselves from a situation they find upsetting the only way they can deal with it. I think he is basically a good man. We would have to walk in his shoes to know how he felt. I wish we had a senior African American in here who would really be able to tell us what it felt like to be an African American in the forties in a little plantation village. However uncomfortable that might be to some it would surely add something to this discussion. How can a white person ever really put themselves in this situation?

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,

Iam African-American. Unfortunately, I did not live during the forties. So, I can not tell you how it would feel to live on a plantation in the forties. I am fifty-two years old. Will that information help in any way while reading the book?

Harriet:

I really don't see how us knowing that you are an African-American will affect our reading of it at all. As would knowing your age. (How brave you are) However, I would be interested to know, from your particular standpoint,and in your opinion, if that much progress has been made overall, particularly in the criminal justice system in our country.

Lorrie

Hi Lorrie,

I think the criminal justice system now is far different from the one that Jefferson faced. I really don't think that people are thrown in prison because of their race or because they are seen as "hogs." I think the majority of African-Americans can find good lawyers that really care about their criminal cases.

This is a difficult question because I have not been personally involved in the criminal justice system. My four sons, thankfully, have been good young men. So, this is just my personal opinion.

Anyway, I know that Oprah did a show recently about death row, and it seems that there are some people on death row who are totally innocent. I don't know the percentage of innocent vs. guilty. Oprah probably gave the percentage.

Lorrie I beg with respect to differ with your opinion. I do think input from an African American would be great.

Carolyn

Hattie there have been a lot of mistakes made in the justice system which has resulted in innocent people ending up on death row. I saw a documentary on this very subject about a year ago. I also saw recently where a Governor of one of your States had spoken out about this very matter and had commuted sentences of a number of prisoners who were on death row when he retired. There was also a big mistake made in our system in the 1950's and man was hanged - I believe he was intellectually handicapped. It was in the fifties that the death penalty was abolished in our country thank goodness! One innocent man hanged is one too many in my opinion.

Hattie were you raised in the city or the country. Were you able to access adequate schooling? Did you attend a segregated school or was that before your time? It is nice to meet you!

Carolyn

Character Names

Have been out of town. Have to go back and read interim posts. Caught one that commented on names of Grant Wiggins & the condemned Jefferson. Just a quickie: Yup, Grant & Jefferson Davis were on opposite sides of this country's civil war. Grant, a northern union general - Davis, president of the ceding, southern Conferate States of America. I just didn't think about this when I read - good catch for the person who noted these. After I thought about it, wondered if Jefferson was possibly named instead for Virginian President, Thomas Jefferson - who fathered both Caucasian and Afro-American families. I never considered from which Jefferson Mr. Gaines may have borrowed his character's name.

Also thought that "Grant" is an unusual name ='s a gift, a boon, a blessing. Our Mr. Wiggins doesn't seem to be that to anyone else right now. He seems to be more of a taker. More on this later, after I've caught up with reading posts.

meg

First of all, forgive the slip of the tongue, Hattie, when I typed Harriet instead of Hattie in my post #77. (Or would you rather we used your screen name, Hats?)

Second, since i am personally opposed to the death penalty, I am delighted that the news lately has been centered on the fact that so many of our prisoners are truly innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted, and apparently DNA is a strong factor in proving this.

Carolyn, when I said that knowing Hattie is an African-American would not affect the way I interpret this book, I meant just that. Of course I am speaking for myself only in this particular case. I would love to hear any comments or opinions that you have to offer us, Hattie, just as we welcomed any posts from you in other discussions.

MegR:

I didn't notice the particular significance of the names when they first appeared, either. Do you think that Mr. Gaines had an underlying motive for using two names that were directly involved in the battle between the States?

Lorrie

Carolyn...I saw the same documentary, I think...the BBC one? That documentary indicated that many of those killed were innocent. Our last hanging was in 1967...and that was a mistake as well. After that, we modernised, and have not had a death penalty since then. The majority of our politicians are against it. There is only about 5% of our population for the death penalty, and those are what we consider the rabid right wing, the very small One Nation party. I have worked in Corrections for years. A number of Lifer's were released as they were wrongly convicted. The further evidence supporting their innocence included DNA testing. I agree with you...one innocent man hanged is one too many. I also agree with you that Hattie's input can be valuable. Just because legislation says 'No prejudice' doesn't mean that minority groups aren't prejudiced against.

Lorrie....I am also opposed to the death penalty...very opposed! You are obviously having the same situation we have had...convicted men being proved innocent with DNA testing. Excellent news. However, there seem to be so many politicians up there who believe the old 'eye for an eye' philosophy, and who just want to get rid of crims, that it's going to be a hard one to get rid of. The book still isn't available from the library...still waiting...

Bobbie

Its a good book Bobbie-nice to see my Ozzie cuzzie in here!

Carolyn

Thanks, Kiwi Kuzzie.<g>

Bobbie

Hi Lorrie, Ann and All,

Carolyn, that governor is the one who appeared on Oprah's show. I can not think of his name. I think he is the ex governor of Illinois. I am not sure, but anyway, he felt that our justice system is in disrepair. Lorrie, do you know his name?

I felt undecided about his decision. At first, I thought he was just opening the jails and allowing a bunch of people to walk free. I am sure there are some innocent people in prison, but I think it is a very delicate matter that must be handled with a lot of care.

Just hearing what the victims had suffered made me very sad, and some of the victims' families thought that the person who had taken their family members' life was guilty, not innocent. All very confusing and heartwrenching. Bobbiecee, I am thankful that nowadays we have DNA testing. Something that would have been unheard of during Jefferson's time.

Carolyn, I attended city schools in Philadelphia. My schools were not segregated. However, I think my husband went to segregated schools here in the south. In my neighborhood, the majority of the neighbors were white or Jewish. My daily stop when walking to school was the Jewish bakery ( wonderful cherry pockets). Anyway, by the time, I went to high school my school was almost totally black and and my neighborhood too.

Lorrie, I like Hats. I like Hats and use it here because that is what my dad called me. Instead of Hattie, he always said Hats. My mother, of course, rang the whole name out with some extra syllables, Haaatie!! She had a very loud voice too. Anyway, I like Hats. It doesn't take as long to write.

I like Hats, too!

Yes, Hats, that was Governor George Ryan, and that brave step he took is another step in the campaign to eliminate the death penalty altogether. I have often thought that the period between the pronouncement of their sentence and the actual execution must be a torturous one for inmates, lasting usually for years.

One of the things that struck me about the educational system of Louisiana at that time was supposedly "separate but equal," which sounds reasonable enough, but when you see the actual conditions, it's an entirely different story. I keep thinking of how difficult it must have been, during Gaines' time, to teach at all.

Hats, does your husband find that the education system at the present, in Tennessee, is much improved for African- Americans?

Lorrie

Here are some links to the trial of The Scottsboro Trials, boys who were arrested and accused of raping two girls. ScottsboroTrials

And, a link to the history of the death penalty in America. Death penalty history

These two links do give us info on what happened to Afro/Americans in the '30's and a the history of who has been executed here in the U.S. What surprised me was that the numbers of whites and blacks put to death were almost even in number. Sorry, I am off the topic here but thought these might help us.

Hello Everyone,

I love books, words, and ideas, and A Lesson Before Dying is even more than I expected. Thank you for including this book in the discussion series. I selected it because I live in Texas, neighbors with Louisiana, and I felt I would be familiar with many of the cultural and ethnic lines of the book. After all, I do drink chicory coffee everyday and cook with cajun spices.

Jeanlock, I was excited to see your reference to the Hogg name. Are any of you knowledgable about our former Governor, Jim Hogg? His life and legacy make very interesting reading, as does the life of his daughter Ima Hogg. If you are ever in the Houston TX area, please take time to visit the Riverbend Estate. It was the home of Ima and her brother and is filled with priceless antique furniture.

Is everyone aware that Texas has executed 7 prisoners already in 2003, and 33 in 2002? We do not have life without parole sentencing. During his time as Texas Governor, George W. Bush refused to hear any pleas for stays of execution.

I hope I live long enough to know if history salutes Governor Ryan of Illinois for his monumental decision. There are still many who strongly disagree with him, especially in this part of the country.

Again, I love the book and am enjoying the discussion very much.

Opal Harriet

OPAL HARRIET!

Welcome, welcome to our group! I am so glad you brought up the point of view that many Texans have about Governor Ryan's decision. I'm sure that is shared by many others across the country.

A topic of discussion can be very banal and very boring if absolutely no one dares to disagree with it. Thank you for posting!

I remember reading somewhere about Ima Hogg. Of course, I was caught up in the name, but it is true that this is an amazingly colorful woman. Your state has some really interesting historical people!

Lorrie

Lorrie

Here is another link to the history of the Negro in America. This is a very old book<publ.1897> but certainly worth looking at and trying to understand the mindset of some of our citizens. Tragic History of Negro in America

Welcome, Opal Harriett! Glad you are joining us. And, to all of you here, thanks for your many thoughtful posts. This is a very deep but simple book which points out the degradation of the black population, not so very long ago.

HATS--

It's just that the names are significant in our history: Grant and Jefferson. Wondered why he chose them.

Yes, that wood cutting scene did show us his hopelessness and feelings of powerlessness to change anything.

Today is bill paying day, and it's already 12:30 and I'm not even dressed yet. I'll be back tomorrow.

HELLO TO ALL! I read this book several months ago and am following along with your posts - fascinated with them actually! It is bringing the details of the book back to me and with your particular insights! I had never thought of those names - Grant and Jefferson and the connotation that they may have - so interesting.

This was a powerful book and I was in tears after finishing it! I would get the book back from my Library and read along with all of you but I am leaving for some fun in the sun this weekend until the end of February.

Enjoy the discussion - it's such a good book!

Hi Everyone,

Lorrie, "separate but equal" does seem like a hypocritical statement. I have heard my husband talk about his education here in Tn. He remembers receiving the old textbooks and never new ones. The old textbooks had already been used by the white schools, and he did go to a segregated school.

Reading this book is very painful, and I think it hurts to remember and discuss the past, but our past is what makes us who we are. My father was born in 1902. I don't remember the year my mother was born. It strikes me as odd that they did not discuss the racial discriminations that they MUST have experienced. I suppose the memories were just too painful.

When Bill comes home from work, I am going to ask him about his other educational experiences. I see the differences clearly in Gaines' book. I think he speaks of the superintendant visiting the white school twice a year and the black school once a year.

"Dr. Joseph visited the colored schools once a year, the white schools probably twice--once each semester."

Yes Hattie it must be dreadfully painful. However from experience here there is healing in expressing the hurt. Don't think all is perfect here now it is not but we have come a long way in the last thirty or so years to addressing grievances. Now we have a lobby here who say the Maori get preferential treatment! Oh you can't please all of the people all of the time can you? I am very happy with the programs in place here.

Carolyn

Your right, Carolyn. I am enjoying the discussion very much. It is wonderful that we can share the sad parts of history without anger, and there is definitely healing in communicating.

Lorrie and Ann are doing a great job with the discussion. The links have been very helpful. Everytime I read a post here I learn or remember more about my own history. This is great!!

HAT....I feel the pain, just trying to put myself into your shoes. I am pleased that you are sharing some of your and Bill's experiences. BTW, we wear hats here in Australia...an necessity in Queensland as we have the highest incidence of skin cancers and melanoma in the world...the bronzed Aussie image has lead to melanoma later in life. For 21 years, the jingle here has been 'Slip, Slop, Slap'---Slip on a shirt, Slop on sunscreen and Slap on a hat. I have a number of different hats, appropriate for each occasion, including my beloved Akubra, which I wear aside from when going in to the city.<g>

Bobbie

Hat - I read Uncle Toms cabin as a child and even then I could see two sides to the story and wept many tears. I also wept over "Roots". I have also read "the colour purple". There are other books too so many I have forgotten many of the titles. Oprah has brought many books to my attention. I used to love the book club.

Back to the book we are now reading. The two elderly women - Auntie and Grandmother. These women have great strength of character. I can just see them in my minds eye, they remind me of some elderly Maori ladies I have known. They have great determination in what they want for Jefferson even to the extent of going up to the "big house" and putting their case. They also have great dignity as human beings regardless of what hurts they may have suffered in their lives. I admire these old ladies. They have real guts!

Carolyn

Well, Bobbie. You know the old saying, no pain, no gain. Anyway, it's not too painful. It is a catharsis to talk about my history and my present. I have been thinking about the first question that Lorrie and Ann asked about names Jefferson was called. I remember "hog" and "thing."

Calling Jefferson "hog" was very humiliating. When I think of a hog, I think of an animal who stinks, is dirty, senseless and greedy. All of these adjectives were a perfect description of Jefferson to the people in the courtroom accepting Tante Lou, Grant and Miss Emma and maybe a few others.

Nowadays, I think people use the name nigger. I don't know the true definition of this word, but it's not a name any African-American would want to be called. I remember learning in life that our name or what we are called is very important. If you are called dumb and stupid over and over again, you begin to believe that is what you are, and you act accordingly.

Jefferson's friends acted like wild men when they murdered the storekeeper. They wanted what they wanted, and they wanted it then, at that moment. Their actions were wrong, no matter their color. I don't think society can be held accountable for their actions. We are responsible for ourselves. But I do believe it helps to improve society and lessen the crime rate when we learn to respect the differences of one another.

Carolyn,

I admire Tante Lou and Miss Emma too. Two very strong women. Two women who were strong enough to fight for their beliefs. I did not read Roots, but I saw the movie and cried too. I think before we finish this book we will cry again.

I just received a book in the mail that I had ordered. I heard that it is a good one. You can find a synopsis on Amazon. It is called LAY THAT TRUMPET IN OUR HANDS BY SUSAN CAROL MCCARTHY. I have not read it yet. I just read reviews about it.

Kiwi Lady--

With reference to 'accusations' that Maori are getting preferential treatment, see the current ruckus here about 'affirmative action"

HATS....I agree with you, using the term 'hog' was meant as a put-down, a term which was saying he was a lesser person, not even human, a 'thing' as you say, and like you say, the common idea of what a hog is. Another term I used to despite when I lived in the US, was calling African-American's 'boy.' Here in Australia, years ago, with our penchant for shortening names, Aussies used to call Aboriginals, Abos. That name is no longer used, thank goodness. It's now either Aboriginal, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders (ATSIC) or Indigenous peoples, all names which ATSIC approves of as encouraging pride in culture. In re the name, 'nigger,' do people there still use that term. If so, I'm upset to hear that....and disgusted. I totally agree with you in terms of the importance of names. Derogatory names, if heard often enough, can be devastating to one's psyche. Even being called names with a derogatory tone of voice by students when I was in Jr High and High School because I was in the gifted child stream had a very negative effect on me. It made me determined that I was not going to have my children go through the same thing, and was one of the reasons that I opted to migrate to Australia. Having worked in Corrections for many year, I totally agree with you about respect assisting to lower crime rates. Much of my work dealt with not only helping inmates to dissociate themselves from the crim and drug sub-cultures, but also to erase the imaginary tattoo from their foreheads that they felt said 'crim.' I was tough on the inmates when they were engaging in cognitive distortions, but I was also very effective in my work with them, because they knew I was not looking down on them, and was seeing them as a person, not as their crimes. The work I did with them paid off in many cases. A number of ex-clients are out in the community leading drug-free and offending-free lifestyles. In fact, I often get asked to attend their 'birthday' meetings, which they have in their 12 Step programs each year they are clean and sober, and am always thanked for the help I gave them. But the most important thing is they're saying that I saw them as a human being, not as a lesser being, which gave them the courage to make the necessary changes in their lives, to the benefit of society.

Bobbie

Bobbee:

What a posiive statement as to the results of your work with released inmates! A perfect example of the negative results of these people wearing that "invisible tatoo."

Jeanlock:

When mention was made about the Maori and the supposed preferential treatment, I too, immediately thought of our country's ruckus over affirmative action.

Hats: I realize reading this book must be very difficult for you, and please, if there are any segments which might be offensive to you or cause you discomfort, please let us know and we can easily drop that subject. I know I can speak for my partner Ann and all the others here how very glad we are that you have joined our group. I do have a feeling this is going to be an unusually interesting discussion.

Carolyn:

I also like those two women very much. It is almost amusing the way the steel-willed Aunt keeps steering the reluctant teacher into the path she wants him to take. And I was impressed by the innate sense of respect and courtesy this young man shows to these two women. Is that simply typical of that family, do you suppose, or is that part of what is known as Southern courtesy? Whatever it is , I think it is truly good manners, a rarity nowdays.

Bobbicee:

Okay, I am going to ask it. What is an Akubra?

Lorrie

I think Grant's attitude to the two old ladies is one of respect. This is something lacking in Western Society today. There is a lack of respect for seniors whether it be out in the community or within the family. I know when I was young there was great store put on the opinion of my Great Grandmother who was greatly respected and her opinions and advice taken note of. It is a generational thing. In the forties you were expected to respect your elders. There are still some communities where elders are revered left in the world. Elders are respected in the Maori Race by most people still, but there are growing claims the young do not listen as they used to.

Carolyn

Hi Hats and all,

Our Justice system lacks alot as there are (have been) so much done wrong. I do not think Jefferson was guilty.

DNA have proved that many convicted are Not guilty as charged.

I have known of two women that did not get a fair shake as one Killed her husband who was a captian when she caught him in bed with another women her penatly was life in prison with no parole, The other had beaten to death her small childs head against a comode and only got one year and a day. Go figure. By the way they were both white.

A Lesson Before Dying has made me so sad to think of the way things were. Moving as a child as I did from North to South I did not understand the separation of the colors as it made no difference to me what color as if I liked a person I liked them but then I look on the inside not the outside. That is probaby because of my sister that some people stared at because of her being different a deaf mute with a facial disfigurement.

I feel hurt at what some have done and are still doing. I am enjoying reading each and every post here on The Lesson Before Dying and am glad Jefferson did learn the Lesson being taught to him that he was not a Hog but a Human Man. I have read the Book.

Ginger

How about the question in the heading: scriptural connotations of the word "lesson?"

Ginger, thank you for your post. Your comments were heartfelt, I know. Listen, please disregard those questions up above for now. I copied them from a Reader's Guide I found, and they aren't really pertinent, I think. Besides, that third question deals with a part of the book we haven't come to yet. We are still in the first ten chapters. We will have some more meaningful queries next week as we go on.

We were discussing how being called certain names can affect our senses of self-worth, how derogatory titles can affect how we think of ourselves. An exmple of this is a notation I found while searching for something else:

In his controversial book "Up From Slavery," Booker T. Washington recounts a conversation with an elderly black man that illustrates the devastating psychological damage this type of language had on many enslaved blacks: "He said he had been born in Virginia and sold into Alabama in 1845.

I asked him how many were sold at the same time. He said, ‘‘There were five of us: myself and brother and three mules.'

Lorrie

OH wow how he must feel two humans and three mules says alot about how he feels, much like Jefferson.

I am sorry that I got ahead of things but it was out there so I posted about it as courious minds want to know. smile.

I'm enjoying this discussion, even though the book isn't available yet, although I just now picked up The Sisters from the library. I'm finding just talking about the book, about the prejudice, the destruction of self-esteem, the denigration of a person until he/she becomes a nothing in the abuser's mind and victim's mind, very distressing. I suppose that a big part of it is my profession. I was certainly never a 'care-bear' but I did always accept each person as a person, regardless of their behaviour, their race, etc. I do the same in my private life. I have a 'melting-pot' among my friends. Also, having worked in Corrections in the US 3 years before I migrated here, and the last 20 years of full-time employment in Corrections and Department of Health, Alcohol and Drug Dependence division, I have been aware that 'justice' is more just when one is caucasian and wealthy. I am also aware that in especially some states in the US, the poor, whether caucasian or a minority group members, are much more likely to be convicted and sentenced to death by capital punishment. And, like Ginny said, I'm also aware, from extensive study of the issue, that many who were 'legally murdered' through the years were not guilty of the offences they were convicted of, but were only deemed to be 'rubbish'...so if they were wrongly convicted, then the easy answer is that it is better to kill them than to pay for their incarceration on a Life Sentence. Sorry, but I feel very, very strongly about capital punishment, as well as the conditions on death row, having viewed them when I worked for Calif. Corrections. Mmmm, wonder if I should read this book. I might just have enough things to be angry at...I'm listening to our Parliamentary session on the radio right now.<G>

Carolyn, you mention lack of courtesy. I guess you and I have been the victims of that lack of courtesy, respect and fair debate in the political forums.<g>...not just lack of respect but out and out abuse and threats. In actuality, I have found a high level of courtesy was extended to me when I visited NZ. Will give you an updated opinion when I visit you next year.<g> I still find, in most instances, a high level of respect in most of, at least, the centre and east and south coasts of Australia (haven't been to WA for years so can't speak of what it's like there) aside from the two biggest cities, Sydney and Melbourne. Brisbane isn't big enough yet to have become disrespectful...may it never reach that stage. Respect and helpfulness. I stopped at the fruit and vegie barn on my way back from the library, and going out to my car, the box broke. I had 5 people rush over to help me and pick up the fallen items, and the shop owner came out and insisted that he replace two items which were bruised. And I don't think I look or act like a frail old lady...yet, at least most people tell me I look in my late 40's, early 50's. Perhaps I'd better go look in the mirror again, eh?

Lori...thanks for the compliment. My thanks has always been seeing the people change...it's like viewing miracles. I do feel that by addressing the 'invisible-tattoo' many were able to take the feeling out of a deeply ingrained shame stain on their self-esteem and work toward cleaning that stain off their psyches. An AKUBRA is the Aussie bush hat....You have your stetson's, we have the Akubra. Here's the general website of the Akubra.

http://www.akubra.com.au/

You can click on Product to get the different styles. Here's another site which takes you to my styles....

http://www.akubra.com.au/products_country.html

I have the Cattleman in fawn, all properly molded, down in front and back, up at sides....and very well worn...(one is embarassed to have a new looking, improperly molded Akubra.....and I have the Territory, in the colour shown....even tattier looking.<g>

My Dad loved the Akubra's so much that he kept buying them. He ended up with 6 Akubras. After Dad retired, my parents would spent 6 months in Australia and 6 months in the US. Dad wore his Akubra's on his daily walks when in the US as well...west SF Valley, Calif. Here, one needs to have the hat shade both your face and neck for protection against the sun. Over half of Australia is north of the Tropic of Capricorn, so we have the tropical sun...and melanoma for those who don't respect it.

Bobbie

Bobbie, Love Your Hats. I am a Hat person.

Ginger

Ginger...and which of the Akubra's would you choose? As I said, Dad had 6, and when he died, I gave all 6 to his friend's who had coveted them, so 6 men in the LA area are wearing Akubras now. I absolutely love mine...and became a hat person from necessity, but also because it they tend to make me feel I'm a part of the bush, the real Australia.

I picked up the other book, The Sister's, from the library today but this book still isn't available...they said 'Soon.'

Bobbie

Bobbie The DOWN UNDER Regency Fawn An authentic Australian hat from the Land Down Under as my Grandmothers brothers fled to Australia during the potato famin in Ireland and the girls came to the US. Please email me about this as this is not the place to discuss business and your email is not available but mine is just click my name as my add is there but make sure you either mention Ginger or Senior net in the heading as I delete all the others.

Ginger

Good Morning,

I have to go to the doctor today. So, I won't post much until later. Like the rest of you, I really love Tante Lou and Miss Emma too. They were strong, determined and loving all at the same time. I enjoy that they had a wonderful friendship too. Miss Emma really needed a close friend at this time in her life. I think my grandmother was a strong woman. I didn't see her much because she lived in Florida. Both of my parents migrated from Fla. to Pa.

I think young African-American men, like Grant, are still very respectful to the elder women in their lives. There is also a healthy love of the family and eat togethers. Food is very important. I think soul food is delicious home cooking. Along with the home cooking comes wonderful laughter and conversation.

Lorrie, I read Up from Slavery many years ago. Then, I read Frederick Douglas' autobiography. Calling a man "a mule" is awful. Unfortunately, during slavery the slaves were thought of as animals. I guess that is why the slaves were not taught to read. You would not teach an animal to read. When I think of geneaology or family history, the days of the Civil War and slavery are not that far gone. We are a young country, but we have made big strides as African Americans and as a nation.

My husband can still remember separate water fountains and bathrooms. All of that is gone now. I think the word "nigger" is still used. I don't remember ever being called by that name. I think, now, the word is used in a whisper.

Lorrie, I am glad you asked about The Akubra that Bobbie mentioned. I thought it had been mentioned in the book and that I had missed it! I thought it might be some sort of African dress. Anyway, Bobbie, when you mentioned the Stetson, that brought back so many memories. My dad wore a Stetson hat. He thought the Stetson hat was the best hat that man could buy. My mother worked for a Stetson factory in Philadelphia. When I came along, she stopped work because of her cancer. My dad opened a tailor shop in our basement to keep her busy. she sewed and talked to the customer and helped dad keep the books.

It is really interesting hearing about the Maoris and Aboriginals. I did gain a small amount of information about the Aboriginals during the Australian Olympics. I would like to learn more one day.

Ginger, you experience is a lot like mine. My parents did not focus on color. They loved people, and my dad had many different races who came into his tailor shop. He could make them all laugh, and my mom could make them all talk. Ginger, it is sad that people focus on the outside and not the inside. Thinking of your sister reminds me that this book can be looked at in many different ways.

I can't wait to see how Grant will help Jefferson. Grant is worried about how he is going to handle this situation. I think of Charles Colson who made it his life work to help prisoners. Boy, what do you say to a person who knows the day and date of his death? You know, it's sort of difficult to know what to say to a terminally ill patient.

I have read all of the posts and I think this is a great discussion. I am so glad this book was picked.

No, I don't think Jefferson was guilty. I think he was caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. I think he was awfully afraid. His friends? I think they were guilty.

Ginger, I love your play on words in #111.

Will do, Ginger...

Bobbie

HATS, I'll send you an email about the Aborigines. Many are still tribal, and live in the outback. Our judicial system allows the tribal Aborigines the choice of either tribal law or Australian law. Most choose Australian law. It isn't pleasant being speared...or if they keep misbehaving, having the bone pointed at them by the kadicha man. In prisons, ATSI's have ATSI counsellors and their special needs, in re extended families, etc is catered to. The ATSI counsellors also assist the city ATSI's to get in touch with their roots, their culture and their geneology. And, all staff are aware of the problem of Aboriginal deaths in custody, and they're need to have a bit of bush. It's something Jefferson wouldn't have had. Instead of being understood, himself, his needs, he as a person, and his needs, were ignored.

Bobbie

Thanks, Bobbie! I will look forward to the email.

What a wonderful discussion and what an amazing book. Sorry I'm late getting here, but I've finished reading the book (though I'll try to stay inside the discussion schedule) and I've finally finished reading all the posts.

This author wrote The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman and few movies have moved me as that one did, so I had a feeling that this book would be similarly insightful and moving. And it was.

This author may be writing to affect the minds of Black and white young people (from his quote), but plenty of our older, white minds are still in their teens, as far as understanding the centuries-old damage done to so many people.....in the past and, in so many ways, still going on in the present. This is a truly gifted writer. Someone wrote that the book has many different layers. Yes, and I suspect that our further understanding could happen at different levels. That readers will leave with new understanding, no matter their beginning level.

---------------------------------------------

Just listen to what happened to me as I began reading at Post #1, with 113 posts to read. I knew I had been struggling to find just the right words to capture how I felt about Grant. Full empathy, yes, but how to explain??? As I read through the posts, I found a word here and a word there, but it wasn't until I read 2 of Hat's posts that I thought, that's it!!.........Here's the first post,

"I like Grant. He states his opinion clearly and loudly. He hates teaching. He feels like he is in a rut. He hates the place where he lives. I think Grant is dealing with so much. When he says, "I was screaming inside," It makes my stomach turn over. I can feel his pain. This man is hurting, just like the rest of the black community where he lives. He is really enslaved. Grant has never experienced his own freedom. He's stuck, and no one can hear him screaming."

In a separate post, Hats called him a "walking dead person," and said that he and Jefferson would have much in common. Yes, yes, yes, I said to the monitor.

Then, in post #76, she told us she is an African American and I grinned and yelled, "Aha!!"

So, I agree with Carolyn (Kiwi lady) who first expressed a wish for Black participants, as I've written elsewhere several times. I've read a lot, had intimate friendships, and sometimes think I know a lot about lives of African Americans. That's not the same, though, as living it.

Finally, I know better than to ask Hats to speak for all Black people everywhere, just as I cannot speak for all disabled people (we come in all shapes and attitudes). Imagine asking ME to speak for people with disabilities who happen to vote Republican. Yuk!

My notes go on and on, so I need to break this into several posts.

Betty

Language and the power of words to heal, or to damage.

I hate to bring up what could be a controversial topic, but it is in answer to one of the questions and I'll bet we can address it respectfully and not get forever sidetracked. I might not bring this up if Hats had not written the "n" word, but she did, so I am, but I choose not to spell it out.

I find it fascinating that many young Black musicians and other Black young people use this word casually in song lyrics and in conversation. I am NOT talking about the awful "monsta-rap" or the song lyrics that everyone agrees is disgusting and endlessly harmful to women---the music groups that talk about beating up and raping women, etc., etc. No, I'm talking the broader trend of Black young people who playfully call each other "n." (the er at the end replaced with the uh sound) It's a closed permission, cannot be used by a white kid saying it to a Black kid......it is only among Black friends and in many popular Black songs.

We can all imagine the negative response to this. I have wondered if this has a positive side. They have taken a word that has always been used AGAINST them to demean and dehumanize, etc., and, with playful, informal, casual use, have FOR THE FIRST TIME, deflated its meaning, and, in a way, stripped away some of its power. They have taken it back from the original owners/users of the word!! Does anyone else see this? Has anyone else heard a discussion of same? I have a couple of times and the views were mixed.

The parallel, supposedly, is the current "casual" use of the word "bitch" BETWEEN WOMEN FRIENDS. That word makes me crazy, so I can't talk rationally about it. The history calls up images of abuse, etc., Anyway, I don't think there IS any parallel to the "n" word. The awful slang words for hispanic people don't carry as much horror and hate.....do they?

It is with a lot of trust that I bring up this topic....I think this group can discuss this without doing harm to anyone (we have lurkers and the general public, remember), but I also trust Lorrie and Ann to call a halt when necessary.

Betty

Each post takes me to a greater understanding of the characters and lessons in the book.

An employee where I work once told our director - You have been taught about people being prejudice, I have lived it.

Opal Harriet

I am reading all of today's and yesterday's posts here and just want to comment on two points.
(1)I looked back into the beginning of the book to see if the author tells us whether Jefferson's lawyer is black, white, hispanic??? He only tells us that the man's defense lawyer is court-appointed so I assume he is white. The reason being that he denigrates Jefferson by calling him a hog and at the same time, he protects himself with whites in the courtroom.
(2)Having heard some multiracial friends refer to family members, laughingly, as "nigger", I have always assumed that the use of the word in their territory is the same as many people using the words, "white trash".
Here's a link to a book titled "Nigger". Nigger-A Troublesome Word

And another article about the book,,ABC's book review

Well, I delved further into a search for the history of this word and found this also: Afro-American History Forum
And finally, this one Status of the word today

Surprising to me was the meaning of the word from its "Greek" beginnings. If you want a good coverage of the use of the word, don't miss reading the last link.

Ann, no, I don't think it is a put down, or is in any way informative (as "white trash" might be). It is a tease, an endearment with an edge. Actually, I cannot explain it, am probably not supposed to be able to explain it.

"A term of affection, bonding" says your last article, but only among Black friends.

Betty

Betty, do take a moment and read that last link. I think it explains the use of the word earlier and now. And, maybe, why it just shouldn't be used today as Richard Pryor says.

So, since the defense "lost" and the defense contended that Jefferson was not capable of planning a crime, was no more intelligent than a hog.......does this mean the jury disagreed with the characterization of Jefferson....that he was, in fact, smart, capable of planning a crime, much smarter than a hog?

NO, of course not. It didn't matter how the case was presented, the conclusion was set before there WAS a defense case. In other words, being charged was probably equivalent to being convicted, if the defendant was a Black man.

I wondered about Jefferson just after the men were shot. On page 6 (paperback), Jefferson takes a bottle of liquor and takes money. I wondered if Jefferson knew that moment that he would be found guilty, no matter what, so he began to behave in a guilty fashion.....he took money.

(I read the article, Ann....that's where I got the quote.)

Betty

Hi Betty so pleased you could join us!

Yup, as I said earlier Jefferson acted in self preservation. He took the money and the liquor because he knew he would not be believed no matter what he said. He would be found guilty of murder by association.

The word Nigger- I hate it! I don't think it should be used it has too many bad historical connotations!

We have a lot of South Africans living here and one day my niece came home very upset. A group of SA girls were outside the local shop and my niece heard them say. "We are outside because there are too many kaffirs inside" Kaffir is another word we are hearing here. I would hope that this big influx does not bring problems. I hope that living here may change these girls attitudes. If they carry this attitude into their adult lives and work they may find themselves in front of the Race Relations Conciliator. (it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of race here)

Carolyn

Hello Everyone,

Betty, you are exactly right. The "n" word is used in the black community. It can be used among black friends or family. When used with each other, it is rarely taken seriously. I don't know the reason why it is used. Maybe, it shows control. I can use this word, but YOU can not use it. This is just a guess.

I have also heard people say that you can be a white "n" just as well as you can be an African-American "n." I have not had a chance to read Ann's links yet. I am anxious to read the articles and come to a deeper understanding myself.

Betty, you write, "I wondered if Jefferson knew at that moment that he would be found guilty, no matter what, so he began to behave in a guilty fashion...he took money."

I wondered why he took the money too. I wondered why his fear mechanism didn't make him just start running. Your answer makes perfect sense to me.

Betty, it is also great to hear that the posters here should not think, in any way, that I am speaking for the whole black community. Another African-American would or might see this book in a totally different way. Each African-American is an individual with their own personal experiences.

I have a hard copy so, I might not be on the same page as everyone else.

HATS...your explanation was exactly what I was going to say. It is used with love between friends, which is different from a white person saying it as a put down. Here, the Aboriginals often call each other 'black fella, me' but it is said with pride of culture to each other, not as a denigration. You might have noticed from perhaps watching the Olympics, that Kathy Freeman carried both the Australian and Aboriginal flags. That was a symbol of pride in her culture, her roots. The Aboriginal flag was waving in one of the URL's I sent to you. It's a beautiful flag and exemplifies Aboriginal's connection to the land, their Dreaming. I have never heard an Aboriginal use the US term, 'nigger' in relation to themselves. They view that term as a put-down, and not of national pride. I do too. White Australians use the term ATSI...Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders'....a term of respect and honouring of our indigenous peoples. We and ATSI's also identify themselves as coming from certain geographical tribal groupings....ie Queensland Aboriginals call themselves Murri, NWS call themselves Korri. If I know where they are from, I will use those terms as well, as it indicates acknowledgement of, respect of, and knowledge of their roots and cultural pride. I hope you are enjoying the URL's I gave you.

Bobbie

Bobbiecee:

Yes, I am enjoying the links you posted; I must confess I have been abysmally ignorant of the culture and anything else pertaining to the Aboriginals. I once saw a very strange movie about the spiritual aspect of Aboriginal beliefs, and I was amazed at how old their beginnings really are. I can't remember the name of the movie, I think it was "Wave" of something to that effect, and it was fascinating.

Caroline, do the Aborigines abide only in Australia proper, or are they found in New Zealand, also? I read your mentions of the Maori people, are similar somewhat to our Native Americans? It's like it all boils down to who was here first. hahaha

Lorrie

LORI...The Aboriginals have a rich culture and very deep spiritual beliefs, all linked with the land. Collectively it's called Dreaming, or Dreamtime. When I was made a blood sister, my ancestor spirit became the kangaroo...the big red in Centralia. Therefore, I have Kangaroo dreaming. The coolamins I received at the women's cooroborees have kangaroos on them, my spirit. I was also given aboringal art paintings of the kangaroo, along with the churinga, the lifeline of the Kangaroo people. Here's a URL about the Dreaming.

http://www.crystalinks.com/dreamtime.html

And, another...an explanation:

http://exn.ca/Stories/2000/09/08/51.asp

Here's one person's experience at Uluru....where I was made a Pitjitjantjara people.

http://inquirer.gn.apc.org/uluru.html

This is where I was initiated into the Aruntas...at Palm Valley, another sacred site, obviously. A palm oasis in the dry outback.

http://www3.turboweb.net.au/~uil2/palm.htm

The corrorboree was held here, at sunset, looking toward one of the palm groves:

http://www.bluegumdata.com.au/pictures/australia/redcentre/macdonnell/mac26.htm

Bobbie

Bobbie:

What fascinating links those are! an anthropologist's dream! The photographs in the first one are spectacular, but I found the explanation of Dreamtime very simple and easy to comprehend. Did you ever meet someone with whom you feel you would love to sit down and converse with for hours? That's how I feel about you, Bobbie, and Carol, and of course Hats!

However, there are still pages of our engrossing book to go on with, and we will be advancing on to Chapter 11 on Saturday. Right now, after ten chapters, I would like to hear what your feelings are on the book so far. Do you admire Gaines as a writer? What do you think of the former teacher Matthew Antoine?

Lorrie

Thanks Lori....I've just started reading the book so am way behind the rest of you.

Bobbie

I truly love and admire Earnest Gaines as a writer. I believe he shows great self decipline in his writing of this book. Surely there were times he wanted to go into many other aspects of the Louisiana/African American culture, but he stayed with his subject.

I like that, and wish many more authors would follows his lead in this respect. By truly concentrating on the characters at hand, he gave us a clear understanding of them.

Opal Harriet

No problem, Bobbie. This is a fairly small book---256 pages in the paperback--but Gaines is such a skilled writer that each page is crammed full of unwasted words. You will catch up, I know.

Opal Harriet:

I agree with what you say about Gaines' writing. He could very easily have gone off in a diatribe against the appalling treatment of blacks at that time, but instead he stayed focused on the particular themes he was writing about--how to reinstill the dignity of a man, and also how a cynical teacher's elationship with the condemned man changed that teacher's outlook entirely.

Writing from Grant's point of view allows Gaines to show the flucuation of Grant's sentiment toward Jefferson, and how that experience changed the kind of person he was.

Lorrie

You ask how we like the former teacher. Oh my, there are just no words to say how much I disliked him. Gaines did a great job of describing him or my feeling would not be so intense. I could hardly continue to read I felt such distain for him.

Now wasn't Grant's Aunt a wise woman when she told him that he would learn all he could from him and then go on and learn from another teacher. She was surely upset that this was the best the plantation had to offer in the way of a teacher, yet she was smart enough to not voice her feelings. He had something to offer, as does everyone, so she encouraged Grant to soak up the knowledge available and to go forward from there.

Opal Harriet

Gals,

Another really readable & interesting book about the Aboriginals/ Maoris is one by Bruce Chatwin called The Songlines. (I really adore him as a writer because he changes style, voice and approach in each piece he has written. I think that Songlines is a nonfictional account of Chatwin's pilgrimage to follow the "songlines" across Australia or New Zealand. (Apologies for not being more specific. I lent my copy to a friend & can't look up country)

Have had house guests & been unable to post. Am in middle of one on NotePad & decided to check in on site. Will be back w/ post on 1st 10 chapters later today.

Meg

I'm almost finished with the book, and am marking spots I want to talk about. It may be tomorrow or Sunday before I get it all together.

I'm beginning to think Polonius's advice to Hamlet about "Those friends thou hast, and their acquaintance proved ...." applies equally to computers and their software.

I changed my ISP back to Starpower, but using Microsoft Explorer and Outlook (that gave me fits before I found Outlook Express) and I have lots to do to get back to where I was on Monday computer-wise.

Bobbiecee, I read "Mutant Message Down Under" several years ago and was fascinated by the story. Did you have a similar adventure to be taken into the Aborigine life? How lucky you are to live in what seems like a very open country. My husband took severa(5)l business trips to Australia in the '80's and was seriously talking about moving there. He found it more like the US in the '40's which is his favorite time of our history. Maybe we should bring this up by email as Ginger suggested earlier but I really have enjoyed reading the links that you put in here. Thanks much!
Am I the only one here who thought that the appointed defense lawyer for Jefferson was probably white and protecting himself by calling Jefferson a "hog". It sort of kept him on their side. I am assuming that the lawyer was white, and maybe I am wrong. The idea that this young man was not better than a "hog" or thing is so disgusting to me.

I just finished watching an interesting movie about the Afro/American experience in the '20's. Made me sad. "Rosewood" is the title and it is about a true happening after WWI. A mostly black town in Florida is burned to the ground and most of the people are killed due to an accusation of an hysterical girl.

General Reactions ---- I've been thinking about these first ten chapters. Granted -- your posts have been interesting, have shared a wide variety of opinions on subjects connected to this novel and have related personal experiences & preferences. I feel that we've missed some important things here and have to look a little more closely at the specifics that Ernest Gaines has included. (Page numbers are from hardback edition - I'll indicate Chapter & paqe as -->(8:65)

Basic Storytelling Info There are some very obvious devices that Gaines uses here that we might consider:

1. Grant Wiggins is the Narrator, the storyteller, (possibly Gaines' mouthpiece - but that is not a given in any piece of fiction). Regardless of whether or not Grant represents Gaines' voice, Wiggins is the primary voice that we hear in these ten chapters. It is his eye, his interpretations, his reactions that reveal this story to us, the readers. Grant controls the info that we receive. How does this color our interpretations of what he says? Can we look beyond the initial "Oh, he's an unfortunate black man living in a segregated & prejudiced society way back then" outlook, an look at him as just a man? Lorrie & Ann have raised the question of the meaning of "manhood" above. I'm not ready to define that term or apply it to Grant or Jefferson yet. Just want us to consider Grant as a man - period.

2. Grant as a Character revealed by his own words and relationships --- I'm still hanging on to my original opinions of him. I really don't feel much empathy for this guy. At this stage of the novel, he's a real jerk. His relationships with others show this:

Grant & Tante Lou - Although Grant probably does love his aunt, he resentfully seethes when she asks him to do anything. He's outright rude to her and to Miss Emma when asked to see the sheriff, to see Henri Pinchot, to see Jefferson. The man lives in her home; she feeds him, does his laundry and provides an aura of "respectablity" for him. Granted, Tante Lou does utilize manipulation, but, I suspect, that she's learned that that's the only way to get him to assist her. He's a "grown" and educated man, who behaves like a pouting child when things don't go his way. Tante Lou deserves Grant's respect! She doesn't have to allow him to live with her!!!! The man may have "book learnin'", but he sure doesn't provide evidence that he has much "sense" or respect for others at times.

Grant & His Students & Matthew Antoine - Wiggins is an absolute failure as a teacher. He seems to be bragging about how much he made Matthew Antoine (Grant's "mulatto" teacher) hate him because Grant wanted to learn, was eager to learn, was encouraged by family to learn. Yet, Grant seems to be following in Matthew's footsteps. Matthew told Grant "Where else could I have felt superior to so many but here?....I am superior to you. I am superior to any man blacker than me." (8:65) Antoine came to Bayonne to make himself feel superior, feel better about himself. He never allowed bitterness to leave his soul; he never allowed himself to open his heart to accept anything or anyone else. He never looked at his students as real people who could learn. Antoine always grasped for and embraced the negative. (Don't ya get back what you put out??) Grant has adopted Matthew's approaches.

Grant follows Matthew's patterns of behavior. He sees his students as "unteachables" - while forgetting that he himself had once been one of them - and that he had had potential which his students most likely possessed also. He emotionally flays that poor little girl for not writing a sentence on the chalkboard in a straight line. ??? What happened to content? Did that poor child have a competently composed sentence? We & she don't know 'cause Grant never even reads it to us. He just berates the poor little chit for not being able to write in a straight line. Look also at what he does to the little boy who counts on his fingers with the math problem - more verbal abuse and whacks across the palm. This man is no teacher. He isn't concerned about learning or his students achievements. He's a bully who is only concerned with "keeping up appearances" when that oafish "superintendent" showed up. What was important for Grant's "exhibition" of his "teaching skills" was that his kids had clean hands, stood & sat in unison & could recite a biblical verse. Duh?!!! I would have been fired if that was all that I could demonstrate as a classroom teacher! Those poor kids are the scapegoats who receive the brunt of Grant's frustrations & anger. These are the actions of a responsible, humane, adult man??? Nope!

Grant & Vivian --- This is relationship is another example of Grant's immaturity and lack of respect for others. Sure, Vivian is probably seeing him because he most likely is the only other "educated" black guy in town & she's also a teacher. But, what about Grant? This woman is still married & he's "messin'" with her! He gets "bumbed out" about being forced to see Henri Pichot & Jefferson & what does he do? He goes to local bar, abuses waitress there, phones Viv & demands that she dump her kids and immediately come to the bar to console him. Like this woman doesn't have a life or responsibilities & can appear at the drop of a hat? And yet she does! But that's not the point, Grant doesn't even consider Viv's kids, he just expects her to show up to hug him & comfort him & enable him to forget the stuff he should be dealing with! With Grant it's all "Me! Me! Me!"

Grant & Henry Pichot --- Yup, here we see blatant evidence of the racial prejudice & abuse that Grant has to face. His Tante Lou & Miss Emma had been Henri's family's housekeeper & cook for ages. As a child, Grant had played the "step & fetch it" gofer for the two women at the Pichot home. Pinchot, the sheriff & those white folks who made him wait & stand for hours until they had leisurely eaten supper were just abominable. I could empathize with Grant's anger, frustration and spite during that scene. Have to admit that I did respect his ability to control his mouth in that circumstance. (Unfortunately, that's something I've never mastered.) We all can understand the "why" of Grant's reluctance to return to the back door of that house - either alone or with the two elderly ladies in tow. - so that's one out of four so far in the plus column for Grant.

This is getting to be long. Stopping here to post. Have a little more to add.

Wow! Wonderful, Jean! Your in-depth analysis of these characters is right on the mark> Please continue!

Lorrie

Betty W and Hats & Grant's "Enslavement" ---One of these two ladies said, "I like Grant. He states his opinion clearly and loudly. He hates teaching. He feels like he is in a rut. He hates the place where he lives. I think Grant is dealing with so much. When he says, "I was screaming inside," It makes my stomach turn over. I can feel his pain. This man is hurting, just like the rest of the black community where he lives. He is really enslaved. Grant has never experienced his own freedom. He's stuck, and no one can hear him screaming."

I happen to disagree with this. Grant doesn't "scream inside" only. His pupils, his aunt, the waitress at the bar have had lots of experience with his "screaming" & hizzy fits. He's "never experienced his own freedom"????? The man obvious went away from the plantation to attend college. I can't find the reference, but I think I read that his parents were in some city in Florida or up North. His parents don't live "on the plantation." Grant chose to move back there. Grant chose to accept the teaching position at that school. In the 1940's there were other opportunities available for him in other places. He chose to remain in Bayounne. He's not enslaved! He likes the comfort of low expectations, of Tante Lou "taking care of him" of Vivian being there to pat his head & cuddle him. Grant likes not having to make adult decisions that would demonstrate a sense of responsibility for himself and others. He's a whiner.

Jefferson --- Well, gals, it's been ten years since I last read this novel. Have a very vague recollection of what happens, but am currently enjoying the rediscovery as I reread each week's chapters. Jefferson, I'm assuming from what we've read in Chapters 1 to 10, is the one who is supposed to learn the lesson of "manhood" from Grant- before Jefferson is executed. At this point, I'm not exactly sure what that means. I know that Miss Emma was devastated when Jefferson's attorney referred to his client as a hog. I do also know that Miss Emma wants Jefferson to be able to die with dignity - and I also suspect that she wants him and the way that he will face his own death to be respected by the jury and rednecks that condemned him. Right now, Jefferson is not open to Emma or Grant's solace or attempts to help him.

Seems to me that the one who needs a "lesson" on living, on being a human, on being more humane is our narrator, Grant. So far, I think/predict that Jefferson will be the one, the catalyst to Grant's learning. Further reading will prove or disprove my opinions. Heaven knows that I have never been embarrassed about being wrong before! (laughing)

What do you think? Meg

Hi, My name is Jeannette and I'm new. I really like this book...I'm listening to it in audio and though the narrator isn't that good, the message of the book is coming out loud and clear. It is so revealing of the predudice of that time and its so appalling. Legislation is what changed it and forced people to act differently, man's prejudice nature will never change ; thank God my children have been raised in a different age. Though uneducated, Emma was so wise in wanting Jefferson to die feeling a sense of value in himself. Grant is the educated one, the teacher, and somehow he just didn't "get it"...or didn't care...

Oh, Great! I think I just had another "Senior Moment." I'm sorry, MegR, I wanted to say Meg instead of Jean in post #140. I think my mind is drifting a bit tonight.

Jeannette:

How nice to hear from you. I think it says something about the book if the message comes through so strongly to you even with a poor narrator. Welcome to our group! Please chime in whenever you feel like it with your thoughts and comments, we would love to hear from you.

Tomorrow we ostensibly continue on with the next few chapters of the book, but I would like first to hear some of your reactions to Meg's carefully thought out posts. I can see there is mixed reaction as to the character of Grant.

Lorrie

Welcome

Jeannette

To Senior Net and S/N Books and Literature

Loved your post and agree,

Ginger

Jeannette

I bought the book A Lesson Before Dying hoping that it will be passed on some day and it will so that people will understand what this country was and how it has (is) growing to be a better place for All of us showing the world we were not pefect and are not now as we all are striving for perfection. At least on S/N we are trying.

let there be Peace on Earth and let it begin with me.

I am reading Abraham a Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths and learning a lot there also. It one of the books we are about to discuss here March 3rd. Ginger

I think the country has come a long, long way which is wonderful. I love Miss Emma and how she looks at each prisoner as one of her "children" She loves Jefferson and the others too. I think that prison cell is going to become a major classroom. All alone, Jefferson and Grant will learn from each other.

Ann...I migrated here in the early '60's and going to Alice it was like going back in time, but that's what I wanted. I hated LA, and loved the wide open spaces, the simpler lifestyle, the friendliness, the mateship, and the country life. In fact, I can barely manage being in the Brisbane area, and wouldn't manage if I didn't back up on bushland and live on a large block of land. If you'd like to continue to discussion via email, let me know and I'll post you my addy. Sorry Ginnie.

)

I haven't started the book yet. Went cycling all day today and am attending a march and peace rally all day tomorrow, then going to my daughter's in the evening as it's her husband's birthday. Sorry I'm so slack.

Bobbie

Bobbiecee, yes, do send me an email anytime and we can talk more on the different topic of Australia and the Aborgines.
MegR, you do sound like a teacher there, lady! I thought that I was back in class happily reading your analysis of the assigned chapters.
And, Jeanette, please stick around and comment as we need all opinions and thoughts of everyone reading or listening to the book.
I didn't feel as strongly against Grant, even from the beginning. No. 1. He is just telling his story and his reactions to his life. No.2. He is just part of this tableau of that life in the quarter.
I am so interested in the descriptions of the quarter and the homes therein. I have been to a plantation and its quarters many times when I lived in the South plus I saw those places while watching "Rosewood" yesterday. The almost gentile poverty is really brought home to us by the author. He has shown that the people living there do have a way of life and they seem to accept it and try to live decently. They are decent people blooming where they were planted.
I think that Grant stayed because as Vivian says, "you love them, just like I do." He is torn between doing what's right and running away. And, it angers him that he can't make a move!! He is frustrated beyond a doubt. Many of us have felt this way during our lives. Earlier than later, I would hope.
I just reread the chapter referred to in "Dubliners", "Ivy Day in the Committee Room". And, then I listened to what the author and Grant learned from their reading. How the people spend so much time talking about their dead heroes and therefore, honoring them. I can't quite fit it into this story but maybe I will later.

New questions up above, Lorrie! Good ones,too. I must consider them before commenting.

I think that Grant has not experienced freedom. Even in the forties, I think, all careers and places were not open to Grant. In the forties, soldiers had just come back from the war. Many of those men complained of coming "home" only to feel unwelcome. Their service to the country had been forgotten or not appreciated.

Freedom? Grant could not go to many of the restaurants that he could well afford. In the forties, a black man could not look at a white woman much less date her. You are saying he was not enslaved? I beg to differ MegR. We are not talking about the present. We are talking about the past. Everyone on that plantation, in the forties, was enslaved to some degree or other.

If Grant whined, he had a right to whine!

I agree with Ann's statement above. I think it is paragraph#6. Ann, a few years ago, I did see a segment about Rosewood, a very sad story.

The movie(and this book) just left me feeling helpless in the face of the white hatred and dismissal of the black people. As if they were expendable. At first, they appeared not to worry about the mostly black village and its inhabitants but whoa! once one white person accuses a black man of raping her, the town of Sumlin(occupied by whites) explodes. They gave themselves permission, not only to feel racist, but to act on their hatred. Mob rule! Hmmmmm, hmmmm, hmmmm!

Meg, i must admit that judging from what we have learned so far about Grant, there isn't really too much to like about him. Like you, I didn't like the way he treated the waitress, for instance. But then I remember the almost overwhelming odd he has to face, and wonder how his relationship with Jefferson will fare.

Does anyone else believe that a lot of our present day discrimination is formed at home? In our house, for instance, there was never any particular emphasis put on color differences, but I do remember how my father ranted about the "damned English." We were Irish-Catholics and he could remember his mother talking about how the "Black and Tans" would harrass the old women going to Mass. I now realize how ridiculous that prejudice is, but to be honest, in my heart I will always hear my father's words every time I encounter anything British. I have to admit these things stick with you.

Whenever I read any of the rhetoric of these "white supremacists" I wonder for how many generations these people have heard this pap at home, and for how long will they be mouthing it to their children?

Lorrie

Ann,

That reminds me of the fictional story To Kill a Mockingbird. The black man was accused of raping a white woman. Then, mob rule took over the town. Atticus tried very hard to have a fair trial, but.......

Dear Hats,

I think we're possibly talking about slightly different things here or have misunderstood each other. I'm not denying or attempting to denigrate the very real sufferings and atrocities faced by African-Americans in this country. Am also not denying the segregation/Jim Crow practices that debased a great portion of our population in the south. Maybe I wasn't really clear or as specific as I could have been with what I wanted to say.

Just as you said that you don't speak for every African-American, neither does Grant Wiggins' experiences represent those of every African-American male during the 1940's. This man had something and had earned something that most of the white folks of his time did not - a college education! He did have opportunities and potential doors opened to him that the sugar cane field workers did not! The 40's weren't the 1920's of the Depression that Gordon Parks experienced where he saw only "White Maid Wanted" "White Laborer Wanted" "Whites Only Need Apply" -signs & ads in NYC. Shoot! Look at what Gordon Parks (who grew up during the 20's & 30's) managed to do with his life without a college degree!

Many African-Americans who migrated north did find employment in mills and factories. There were school districts hiring black school teachers - especially in large cities. I'm not saying that equal employment opportunities existed in the '40's as they do today by any stretch of the imagination. But - there were real job positions opened for men like Grant. Probably required some looking and pursuing to get them. Guess the point I was trying to make was that Grant was not enslaved by that plantation parish school. He could have gone elsewhere for employment. Just read last night in Chapter 11 that Grant's parents had moved to California; he did have somewhere else to go. He wasn't fated or doomed or enslaved to stay in Bayonne for the rest of his life. There were other options available to him which he chose to not examine.

Have to admit that I did read this book when it first came out 10 years ago. I remember only very vague outline of story plot. I wanted to draw attention to Grant as a jerk - simply for contrast sake - because he does start to grow and change. Have seen some evidence of this in reading for week two already. I still have 40 more pages to finish reading for this coming week & hope to complete them today.

Does this help to make what I meant clearer?? Meg

Grant does behave like a jerk but I do not believe deep down he is one. Like all of us, he loves where he was born, regardless. He does not love the way of life the people endure there but he loves his birthplace. How many people have left countries where they were tortured for their beliefs and still yearn for that place of their birth? He is torn by these feelings and and at the same time a desperate need to get away perhaps to the North.

He also loves his grandmother. He feels a responsibility to her. His behaviour is born of frustration. I can understand this. Of course it does not excuse his harshness to the children at school but as I have said it is understandable in the circumstances. He has been away to college. He has experienced and seen some other way of life. Down in the South it seems like there has been no progress in the way the African Americans are treated. He is a very angry young man.

Carolyn

I'm not getting the feeling that Grant is treating the children harshly in order " to prepare them for life". I think he has alot of anger (and probably justifiably so) but instead of being constructive in dealing with it, he is taking it out on the kids. It may be sort-of like the harassment and hazing you received "in the old days(!)" when you pledged a sorority....the mindset that "if I put up with it you have to take your turn" kind of thing. I think he could be incredidibly constructive for those kids. Destroying a child's self esteem and being abusive is never beneficial, and that's what I see him doing. Also there is the element that he probably learned that kind of treatment when he was a kid. His formal education seems to have not taught him some of the more important things in life. I guess we have to remember though that back in the forties, people weren't taught about expressing anger ...that was a 70's thing, wasn't it? I also found it ironic when he said to Jefferson "remember what all Aunt Emma has done for you" when he had to be railroaded and coerced into visiting Jefferson in the first place! I'm anxious to see if his attitude changes as the book progresses. Jeannette from No. Va.

MegR, you ask,

"Can we look beyond the initial "Oh, he's an unfortunate black man living in a segregated & prejudiced society way back then" outlook, an look at him as just a man?"

My answer is no, it isn't possible to strip away context of a life and examine someone in a vacuum.

Every person alive is some mixture of individual genes and slow, certain shaping by external, cultural forces. We don't know why one Black woman in Taute Lou's position would be able to stand up to her former employer/enslaver and another one would not.

It's fairly easy to guess why Grant's aunt and Jefferson's godmother were surviving with more dignity and personal strength than the two men. Even without fancy studies to tell us it was the Black male who suffered more at the hands of racist society, all we have to do is think of who was more likely to be lynched, who was more likely to be accused of some fabricated crime and be sent to prison or lynched by electric chair.

Here's what a friend taught me after we had known each other for years and years and she had weathered all my awkward questions.....To be Black means your life is in danger. She told me, after about 10 years, that she never knew if she would make it home after work, that there was always the possibility of being stopped by the police and that something would go wrong, that a hairbrush on the front seat would be "mistaken" for a gun. In her large, extended family, her fears were not unusual. It was a common fear...will I get home tonight.

I think Grant was dying. (And much of what you listed, MegR, testified to the downward spiral from life to death.) I don't know how his aunt could see so clearly what was needed.....or maybe that was the easiest part, something we practice all the time, really, something we know in our bones about who is benefitted most when one reaches out.

--------------------------------------

This book has made me think about so many things. One thing I keep coming back to are the impossible conditions for Black men. It's still going on. It doesn't take us long as children to "learn" what a "real man" is. But, and here is the catch, there are so few ways Black men are allowed to measure up to the status of "a real man." Think of Grant always having to use the rear entrance, always following a script of behavior designed by others.

Betty

This week has gone by so quickly and all I've been able to do is read the posts, which are excellent - just about as good as the book itself!

I have just two little comments at this point. One, I can't tell you how touched I was the several times when Miss Emma asked if any leftover food could be left for "them children". I suppose the term "children" could be interpreted as a put-down but not from Miss Emma. I do think quite a bit could be read into that term and under those circumstances - mostly meant to be affectionate but I hear another more silent meaning - suggesting that these inmates were, indeed, children and deserving of our kindness and understanding. Or, in harsher terms, whatever in the world were they doing locked up in there - they were, after all, children. It catches at me whenever she says that.

And the other thing, I was reading this before and around the time of the Columbia tragedy and it just hit me in the face, about the crew, THIS is the way people are supposed to live and be with each other. That precious group of people made up of several races, countries, genders and look at how they all got along, worked together, loved each other, and shared a common goal which, so sorrowfully they did not achieve. But what an example! Compare that with the small-mindnedness of prejudice and who in the world would actually choose to be that way. Isn't it so obvious? And can't we somehow show this to people, point it out, whatever it takes to rid them of their hate and smallness of thinking. Oh, I know - it's much more complicated but, still, I like to cling to the thought that there is possibly a larger message here that could nudge the world into a kinder place.

And now, to read on and, I hope, participate more in the next weeks.

Wonderful, thought-provoking book isn't it? So glad to have heard about it.

Diane Church

Well said and Thank You.

Winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award for Fiction. I don't think so maybe the names changed But we all know that these things have happened.

We are Changing for the Good I hope.

Just Look at this Archived Book Read here on Senior Net and see what happened in about 14 or 15 years.

When I Am an Old Woman I Shall Wear Purple

Four women met in 1954 at Talladega College (one of the country's forty historically black colleges) and began an enduring friendship that continues to sustain them more than forty years later.

For Those That Do Not Know that This Huge Senior Net discussions (Not only here in Books) have really Enjoyed this Book and There are Red Hat Society's All over the U. S.

These four African Americans Ladies Made a Difference and We can also.

Meg:

At the very end of Chapter 12, Grant tells Vivian he wishes he could just run away from that place, but she reminds him that he had tried it once, "Sure," she said. "You even did it once, but you came back. This is all we have, Grant."

An option he tried but didn't pursue.

Jeannette:

It will be interesting, won't it, to see how Grant's attitude changes, if it does.

Betty:

"I think Grant was dying. (And much of what you listed, MegR, testified to the downward spiral from life to death.)" Did you mean that literally? What am I missing here?

And to all of you:

What were your reactions to the episode (Chapter 11) when Grant and Jefferson were finally alone in his cell? I was horrified when I read how Jefferson went through the motions of how he supposed a hog would eat. In my opinion, with very few words, and much authentic-sounding dialogue, Gaines has painted a searing portrait of how his "label" has affected young Jefferson.

Lorrie

Ginger: Winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award for Fiction. I don't think so maybe the names changed But we all know that these things have happened.

Check this link for 1993: http://library.christchurch.org.nz/Guides/LiteraryPrizes/Bookcritics.asp

You know, reading the preceding post about Grant Wiggins I feel that it misses the point. True, on the surface it appears that he is arrogant, selfish, and boorish. But I look beneath the surface and I believe that the things he does that appear boorish and arrogant are things he does to keep from hurting. I've marked some passages, and when I get back to this I'll do them one by one. Of course, I may be superimposing my own tendencies on him. I know that during my first marriage I ranted and raved because I was very insecure and my first reaction was always to start yelling. With Bob, however, I felt very secure in his affection and knew I could rely on him to understand and I didn't need to panic as I had done before. I think that if Grant relaxes his attitude he's afraid he'll get plowed under and never get away. He feels for the children, and for his aunt but can't bring himself to appear 'weak'.

Pat Thanks for the link I found it and yes it says Ficton but a lot of the book has actualy happened is what I meant.Awe the written word and the hidden what was meant. I do that alot in posting.

Ginger

Lorrie, You asked about my thought that Grant was dying. After writing out several sentences to explain, then reworking them, I've decided, for now, to leave the words as they are. And, yes, I do mean them literally.

Betty

Betty, do you mean that Grant was dying as his "selfish self" and being reborn as a compassionate self? What is that quote, "Unless a man die unto himself.........? He will not see heaven?" I can never remember when I want to do so. :<) Is his dying a "soul happening"? A rebirth? Which is what is claimed through baptism, be it through water or fire? The "fire" being the "drossing" of Grant by learning the hard way that he does care about this man, Jefferson, and about his "Nannan"?

Susan, way back in post # 56, you said: "Yet I don’t see this book as polemic at all, just a window to a different world."

Do you still see the book in the same way?

Opal Harriet:

"I truly love and admire Earnest Gaines as a writer. I believe he shows great self decipline in his writing of this book"

How would you compare Ernest Gaines' writing with other black authors, like Richard Wright, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, or Alice Walker?

Dianne Church:

In your post #157 :

"Compare that with the small-mindnedness of prejudice and who in the world would actually choose to be that way. Isn't it so obvious? And can't we somehow show this to people, point it out, whatever it takes to rid them of their hate and smallness of thinking. Oh, I know - it's much more complicated but, still, I like to cling to the thought that there is possibly a larger message here that could nudge the world into a kinder place."

Inspiring, Diane!

**************************************************
To all the posters:

Have you gone on to the next chapters? Do you notice any change at all in Grant's attitude since he started visiting Jefferson alone? What do you think of the deputy sheriff, Paul?

Lorrie

Lorrie,

I think Grant is softening. He admits himself that he is unable to hold a grudge. Also, now, Grant seems to visit Jefferson, not out of duty but out of true concern. He tries to feel the deputy out, and Grant wants to know about Jefferson's daily routine. Grant seems to have personally involved himself in Jefferson's life or last days.

Grant admits to having nightmares about the execution too. I think Grant's dreams might stem from worry, worry about the awful death Jefferson is facing and what will happen to Miss Emma after Jefferson is gone. Plus, Grant is carrying a heavy load. He is anxious about mentally preparing a man for execution. Surely, he wonders what will happen if he does not say the right words.

Oh, I agree with Opal Harriet. I love Ernest Gaines. I especially enjoyed reading 'A Gathering of Old Men.' I like his short stories too. I think Louisiana must be an interesting place to visit. I would like to learn more about the foods, music, etc.

On page 1, the two women are called "his aunt" and Jefferson's "godmother."

---------------------------------------

Ann, my thought about Grant's dying was only how we found him as the story began, as we learned how he interacted with everyone. At the point that his aunt takes action. (Each time he was with those school children, I felt chilled and several times I thought, this man is dying.) Jefferson's godmother wants him to do something for Jefferson and with a firm hand (of love)(she must have known no other way would have worked), his aunt insisted that Grant say yes and that he carry through with this torturous task. I think she was saving Grant's life. The profound irony.

Hats, I've thought and thought about the word "softening" you used for Grant and maybe you'll grin when I tell you that I wrote in the margin somewhere, "He's finding his grit," meaning (I think I meant) finding his strength, finding his voice. However, I don't remember this happening very soon. In fact, I remember his visits not getting any easier for quite some time, that his playacting with the prison officials remained an awful hell. I wrote down somewhere that he was toughening up in spite of his misery, that the actions themselves were causing a change that he was not yet aware of. But, coming back to "softening," yes, I do see what you mean, or I think I do. A human something surfacing in him. All of these things, plus more, must have been happening to him. Soft, strength, tough, voice, human. I saw him as suffering for the greater part of the meetings, and then one day he refused to say "sir" as he came through the front office. He was gaining strength through action.

I write as if I'm certain about things, but I'm not. It helps to read what others see and think.

Betty

Right on Betty!

Toni Morrison- I have read her work and it really made me think. Yes I like her as a black author. She tells it as she sees it!

Grant's action in refusing to say Sir reminded me of the civil rights movement and the woman who refused to stand up in the bus for a white and got on a white bus! There was a film about it. Sorry I have many senior moments and can't for the life of me remember the name. I cannot even remember if it was in Southern USA or South Africa! However it is all relevant to what we are talking about right now in this discussion.

See you later-lunchtime here and as I did not eat breakfast I better get on and have some. I have been out all morning. Supermarket, bank, library and fruit and veg store! I am hungry now!

Carolyn

Carolyn

The Lady's Name who sat in a White persons seat at the head of the bus was Rosa Parks and she is History in the making.

Ginger

And she turned 90 last week, Ginger!!

And, before her there were others who were trying to peacefully get served at the luncheon counter at the 5 & 10 in Florida. A new book which just came out follows the 60's people in this movement.

But back to Grant, and yes, Betty, I agree, that Grant has not only found some grit but he seems to have honed himself a little and also sees what loving people he has around him. How about that Christmas program? Too much! IMHO, he's really a naturally caring person. But, also frustrated by the white's jerking him around, searching him everytime he appears at the jail, even Ms Emma's food preparations. These lawmen just don't get it! That this lady only wants her Jefferson to walk proudly, not sniveling to his death. So sad!

Ann Alden

Thank You So Much for Mentioning that there was a Movie, Lesson Before Dying). I have read the book and today I watched the movie on video and both were very Emotional for me. The Video I watched today was more Emotional for me than the book as I could see with my eyes the facial expressions and the Great Acting as it was like real life to me. Jefferson was Not Guilty in my mind and died needlessly, What a waste.

I must not say to much I know because I may give something away that would spoil it for the rest.

Just know that I am So glad this Book was chosen to be discussed. I Thank you Lorrie and Ann for Leading this Wonderful Discussion.

Ginger

Ginger I am going to take out the movie again in the near future. I remember when I watched it bawling my eyes out.

Carolyn

Carolyn

How well I understand what you are saying.

Ginger

Speaking of the movie version, did anyone by chance see the movie or read the book, "The Green Mile?" This was a story also of an innocent man being executed, and like you, Ginger, I was very touched. It was very emotional. Similarly,with this particular book, Gaines is able to tell, in a matter-of-fact manner, a most moving story.

Lorrie

Lorrie I read the book The Green Mile and also watched the video and agree Very Emotional.

Anyone interest in the buffet in the Welcome Center

Ginger

MsBert I am watching for Your Post My Friend.

Ginger

Betty,

Maybe, "he is finding his grit." I like the word "grit." After I think about it, Grant is not going to soften or become more humane without a fight. I think Vivian will help bring out his human spirit.

Lorrie,

I didn't see the movie Green Mile. My husband did see it. I liked the guy who played the leading part. What's his name? Of course, Denzel Washington is just my faaaavorite. He is sooo cute. I am glad my husband can't see over my shoulder.

Anyway, in this part of the story, I think the deputy and the prisoners are just enjoying that wonderful chicken!

Hi Ginger,

I am ready for the buffet! What time is it served?

I love Toni Morrison too. I found The Bluest Eye very meaningful. I had to read it more than once. I have not read Sula or Beloved. I want to read Beloved very soon. I like Toni Morrison as a person too. She seems very ladylike and humble. Each word that she writes carries great meaning.

Did any one name Maya Angelou? I will never forget her reading at the inauguration. Was it Clinton's inauguration? I am not sure. She has made many trips to Africa. She writes great poetry too. Her coming of age story I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings is interesting. I loved her grandmother and brother. Of course, she went through some very painful times as a little girl.

Hats:

I knew there was an important name I was forgetting! Of course. Maya Angelou. I remember her reading of her poetry at the Inauguration----it was mesmerizing. That marvelous voice!

Lorrie

Hi Lorrie,

I love her voice too! Each word is measured and thought about before spoken, a very distinctive voice.

Well, I am back to the jail and Jefferson.

Lorrie, I've continued to think of your question about what I meant by Grant "dying." I knew it wasn't as simple as a body or mind answer, but beyond that I still didn't know how to explain, even to myself. One thought I had today is that I didn't see Grant "living," therefore, I saw him dying. Something about the essence of who he was having to stay dormant.

Betty

I think Grant was not "living" because he could not be himself. In Bayonne, he had to be a totally different person from the one who lived on the university campus. I think this hits on question #3 that is asked above in the header. On the university campus, he could be an intellectual, asking and answering important questions. While in Bayonne, he had to slide back into a subservient role. So, he is "dying" in a symbolic way.

Hats, good answer to the "dying" question. I like the way you put it. If he is not "dying", he is "hiding" behind the subservient manner that he maintains when at Pichot's or at the courthouse(jail). This is so demeaning to him and to anyone who has ever been in his shoes.

Thank you, Betty! "essence of who he was having to stay dormant" seems to fit here, and that is exactly what Hats is saying, don't you think? God knows the way Grant is torn about the way he has to live is not really living, is it?

I believe that this is a very complex young man. What's so wonderful about this book is that it captures Grant's day to day frustrations so that, within the first few pages, you know exactly where his sense of despair, his suppressed anger, and, most of all, his raging unhappiness at being trapped in this system comes from. He knows that being educated, far from being the answer, has only enmeshed him deeper into the web of expectations and unfulfillable, unspoken promises. Grant's visits to Jefferson bring out reserves he didn't know he had, and bring up questions that are almost too hard for him to bear.

As wwe go on here, I can't help but feel a sense of impending doom. Gaines' writing has set the scene memorably.

Lorrie

One of the chilling remarks that Grant made to his old teacher left me flabbergasted. "They teach us how to live as a colored man." As if getting an education didn't expand his options at all!

ANN...I have just read this book. It has been so distressing to me that I have found that I can't even discuss it, in terms of disecting it. I seem to be able to think only in terms of the big picture, which involves prejudice, people in different countries being prejudiced against any body who is 'different.' IMO, this always indicates that deep-down, the prejudiced person actually feels 'lesser than' so has to find a group of people, usually racial, to denigrate so they can feel 'better than.'

However, Grant's statement really affected me. "They teach us how to live as a coloured man.' Tuesday evening, at work, I had a 1-on-1 with a young man who reacted to prejudice by becoming a substance abuser, and committing a crime under the influence. When in prison, he learned his roots and pride of culture, but is now on his way out (at a release to work centre at present) and wished to talk about how he is going to handle prejudice upon release. One statement he made: I want to be accepted as Chris the person, not Chris the black man.' It was a long session, but together we developed a plan of action. He has relatives in Darwin, NT, and is going to put in for change of Parole to the Northern Territory. Darwin is a truly egalitarian multi-cultural town, at the top end of Australia. There, he will have the opportunity to be accepted as Chris the person. Chris the person, sober and clean, is a wonderful young man, intelligent, insightful, spiritual, honest. Grant wasn't allowed to be Grant the person. I feel Chris will have the chance Grant didn't...I sincerely hope so.

Bobbie

Bobbiecee:

What an inspirational post that was! I can only imagine the feelings of accomplishment you must feel after having helped this man overcome his own prejudices and ready himself for a better life.

I know many of us are indignant after reading how these African-American people lived in that little section of Louisiana. I'm sure it's upsetting for Hats, for instance, but we must also remember that these things happened so blatantly back in those days, the late 40's. We can only hope that things are much, much better now.

Ann has been in places like the ones described, and can well imagine what life must have been like for the "quarter" residents then. It is the way the author lived, while growing up. He says that himself in interviews.

I meant to ask all of you, what did you think about the scene concerning the Christmas program? Can you imagine what must have been going through Grant's mind as he sat there behind the curtain? In some ways I found that description completely poignant, especially the dialogue between the "shepherds."

Lorrie

Hats, Ann, Lorrie, Bobbiecee, your posts 185-190 are worth rereading slowly.....how articulate and intelligent. How wonderful it feels to be in the company of people with informed empathy. (That includes all the others in this discussion.)

Don't you think it was courageous of Gaines to write about people altered and damaged by racism? Others have, but differently, I think. Does this ring a bell for anyone? Am I right about this?

Betty

Yes, Betty, it was courageous of him! And he wrote about these things without any apparent bitterness, like Richard Wright does, for instance. I am sorry I didn't read more of this man before this. I do believe this book is "majestic", as one reviewer wrote.

Here is aother taste of his incredible way with words: ""There's an old oak tree in the Quarters... and I'm not ashamed to say I've talked to it. It's not necessary craziness when you talk to trees or rivers. ...When you talk to an oak tree that's been here all those years and knows more than you'll ever know, it's not craziness -- it's just a nobility you respect."
That is from his "Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman."

Lorrie

Yes, LORRIE, I felt wonderful after being able to help Chris. Of course Chris has to do all the work...my bit was just listening and guiding his thinking. I really think he'll make it. He's a fantastic artist...Aboriginal paintings, and in Darwin, he'll have the outlets to sell his paintings, in Darwin and Alice and in the other capital cities. I think what I feel really good about is that through the group, I was able to establish enough rapport that he came up to me and asked if he could have the 1-on-1. In the years I've worked in Corrections, there's been so many 'miracles'...inmates who have totally turned their lives around. I guide them to AA and NA, and have often been the first person who has accepted them as a person, not as just their behaviour when drinking and using. Last week I was invited to an AA meeting to see one of my ex-clients get his 10 year birthday cake...10 years of sobriety. Chris told me he wanted to ask this bloke to be his AA sponsor while he's still in Queensland. So AA will take over the helping role when he leaves the Centre.

BTW, I talk to trees and rivers. To me, the tree signifies strength, and the river serenity and depth.

Bobbie

One of the things that comes to mind is the obligations and commitments as Ms Emma reminds the Pichots and Guidrys(sheriff's wife is a Pichot?) of her dedication to the family over the years. She also lets them know that they owe her this favor that she asks of them. How is this different from the way that we might ask a favor of an old friend today? Is it different?

Good Morning,

Ann, I did find the statement chilling, "They teach us how to live as a colored man." I can't completely grasp all that Grant meant by that statement. To live as a colored man must mean that the colored person must remain in their appointed place, at the back of the bus, head bowed, use of the back door, no justice in the court system, and the idea that if you were educated, you must be uppity.

Bobbie, I think your friend's words are so wise. "I want to be accepted as Chris the person, not Chris the black man." I think every minority is searching for that in their life. Not to be put in a box or categorized is so important. When you find friends who can enjoy you as a person and not colored, disabled, or short or tall, it is unforgettable. I have been lucky to have friends from more than one race, and we just enjoyed and loved one another. We did not see one another as a stereotyped individual.

Lorrie, it is satisfying to know things are different today and not like the forties. I glory the strength of the people who lived through those times. I think they should never be forgotten. They are courageous, and I am glad that Ernest Gaines wrote about them, and he writes in such a way, that I don't feel angry, just sad.

Betty, I agree. All of the posts here are very meaninful and memorable. I take my time reading them, and for the first time, I print them out! I don't post immediately because there is the fear that my post might not be as wise or understandable. I am treasuring each word that all of you write.

Betty, I don't know if this is the right word, but I think that Ernest Gaines writes with dignity. I don't like books that lead me to hate or rage. I don't read them. Betty, I think that you have read The Autobiography of Jane Pittman. I have not read that one. I am anxious to read it.

I had the chance to see Ernest Gaines on t.v. visiting Louisiana. He walked around the cemetery of his ancestors. He speaks very slowly, thoughtfully. He does seems like such a gentle man, and he is very proud of his ancestors.

Hi Ann,

I think we were writing at the same time. I am pondering your question. I have my thinking cap on.

Lorrie, I am writing down the quote from The Autobiography of Jane Pittman. One more thing, Lorrie. I kept looking and looking for the Christmas program. I didn't remember reading it. Guess what! I haven't gotten to it yet. It's in my next chapter. I have a hardback book. I will have a comment soon, I hope.

Hats, it was toward the end of Chapter 19. I can't give you the page numbers because I am using the paperback, but I'm sure the chapters are the same. It's quite a lengthy piece, but very memorable.

DIGNITY! Yes, that's a very apt word for the writing of Ernest J. Gaines. He is eloquent without leaving the reader with a relentless sense of guilt. Hats, you must read "Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman." You will love it. A movie was also made of that book, but I am afraid I missed it.

Your comments are so welcome here.

Lorrie

Hat and Bobbie have made very good points. We really have to get to know people from other ethnic groups one to one to overcome prejudice. In NZ we have many laws against racism. However this does not stop racism of the heart. Racist people tend to congregate in suburbs where they know there will be no Polynesians.

I come from a racist family. It was brought home to me in a big way when we had a end of year barbeque for my husbands rugby team and also invited my family to the same party. My husband was one of two pakeha (white) in the team. My family sat at one end of the garden and did not join in at all. They all went home early. It was then it hit me.

The other day my son asked me if I would like him to sell my house and build me a brand new one. (he is a designer/builder) I told him no. I have neighbours who really care about me. I know if there is trouble I can make a phone call and there will be three big Maori men to come to my rescue. I feel very safe, I have known these men since they were children and there are three households of this extended family in the near vicinity to watch out for me. I think I am really fortunate in my neighbours. My street is a real United Nations even though there are only about 50 houses in the street.

I don't know if there is any answer to racism of the heart but as we have done here we can legislate to protect human rights. The right to live where we please, the right to meaningful employment etc.

Yes Ernest Gaines has written this book with great dignity I agree.

I recommend you read the Nelson Mandela story too. I think I admire him the most of any person in the world. He would be the person I should most like to meet. I do know someone who has met him and said he is just as great in person as he comes across in the media.

My daughter went to Robin Island where Mandela was imprisoned and had the privilege of seeing the effect this prison had on the young white South Africans who were with her. One girl wept and embraced the tour guide and said "Sorry".

Vanessa travelled widely through Africa but could not come to terms with the white Kenyan way of life at all. She stayed with a wealthy white family and was told off for getting up to help the maid clear the table and do the dishes. She said there is still a very privileged way of life for the whites there. The servants work very hard for very little reward.

Books like A lesson Before Dying make me very angry inside. I hate mans inhumanity to man. Time have changed yes but still there is so much more that needs to be done in the world.

Carolyn

Caroline, some years back, I saw a movie called "Once Were Warriors," or something like that. It was filmed in New Zealand, I believe, and was the story of a very strong woman and her family and how she coped with an abusive husband. Did you see it, by any chance? If so, were those Maori people in the story? I thought it was a fascinating movie, and I've been watching carefully to see if it is shown again with the foreign films, but so far, not. There was a lot in the story about the cultural differences between these people who were so wrapped up in their city lives they had lost sight of their warrior-like heritage, and so on. Wonderful film!

Lorrie

Lorrie, it is in chapter nineteen. I will probably read that part tonight. I think Cicely Tyson played in The Autobiography of Jane Pittman. I might be wrong. Cicely Tyson is a wonderful actress. She is one of my favorites. I have already put Miss Jane Pittman on hold at the library.

Carolyn, I am learning a great deal about your life experiences with the Maoris and about New Zealand. I would like to read a book about New Zealand.

Nelson Mandela is a wonderful man. He is another man who wants everyone to live without racism and bloodshed. I will have to read his autobiography or biography. Carolyn, do you have one to recommend?

I bet your daughter will never forget her trip to Africa. Going to Robins Island must have been very emotional.

Once were warriors portrays the very worst scenario. Yes its based on Maori families with gang attachments. Biggest gang is black power.

Maori are warriors and they are a huge part of our Army personnel. These are the best of our young men. They seem to take to military life in the Army like a duck to water. They also have a chance to be proud of their culture in the army. The haka and Maori protocol are part of their army life. The Australian commander in Timor said that one of the most memorable parts of his tour was watching a haka by our troops. He said the hair stood up on the back of his neck. Mind you the haka is very special to all New Zealanders and Pakeha or Maori it is performed before all of our big sporting events even spectators in the stands will stand up and perform.

I believe there is to be a haka by hundreds at the start of each America's cup race as the boats go out of the Viaduct basin. I hope you get to see it.

When young Maori embrace their culture it seems to be a big turn around in troubled lives. I think it gives them such a sense of pride and belonging. Let me say that even as a Pakeha the maori culture is a big part of the way I see our country. I just love the haka! The haka to me is New Zealand. Po Kare Kare Ana is a song that all homesick Kiwis sing when they get together in foreign parts. My daughter said that on Waitangi Day our National day a group of NZers and Aussies did a big day out they used the tube in London and did a pub crawl they all sang songs from home including Po Kare Kare Ana. I believe this day out is becoming an annual affair in London. Kiwis and Aussies tend to gather together on special days.

There is a sequel to Once were Warriors but I am ashamed to say I cannot remember the name of the book.

I am also proud to say that Brooke and Grace my two grandchildren have Maori ancestry on their fathers side. Their dad is as white as I am but Brooke has coffee and cream complexion. He is a wonderful son in law and before he died my husband entrusted the ones he left behind to his care. He is also my enduring power of attorney should I become incompetent through illness and accident.

Carolyn

CAROLYN...good post, good points. I especially agree with the point you made between the difference in legislating against racism vs getting to know members of different racial groups as persons. One of the great things about Australia is that in most cities there is NO suburb which is without a variety of racial groups. The two exceptions are Sydney and Melbourne. Thank Goodness, that is not the case in Brisbane. The most poshy neighbourhoods here in Brisbane are a racial mix, as is every other neighbourhood. Perhaps this is why there are no racial gangs here like there are in Sydney and Melbourne. My neighbourhood is also a 'United Nations' of different racial groups and nationalities. Same with my friends. Like you, I feel the Maori man who lives down the street would be the first one to come to the rescue if I needed it. His wife is a good friend, a fellow Psychologist. He is a gentle giant, owns his own business. I agree with you...the person I most admire in the world is Nelson Mandela. Like you, this and similar books also make me very angry when faced with mans inhumanity to man.

I have a cassette of Maori songs...fantastic singers and harmonisers, and one of the songs is, of course, Po Kare Kare Ana. I get goose-bumps of emotion every time I hear it. And even more so when Dame Kiri Te Kanawa sings it. I halso have a CD or Dame Kiwi singing Maori songs. I found it very moving that at the Rugby final, both the NZ national anthem and Po Kare Kare Ana were sung before the game.

Lorrie.....I saw 'Once we were Warriors.' Bryce Courtenay, in his book, Tommo and Hawk, the second of three in the Trilogy, (1st - The Potato Factory, 3rd- Solomon's Song) gives a good insight into what happened when British subjects colonised NZ, and the beginnings of their fight to restore pride in culture.

Bobbie

Carolyn, and Bobbiecee:

Do you see any connection here between what Gaines was trying, in this book, to portray about the lives of Louisiana blacks in the late 40's and the treatment of the local natives, (Maoris and Aborigines)in Australia and New Zealand?

Lorrie

LORRIE....I definitely do, in terms of the Aborigines. The early settlers were terrible. Unfortunately the Aboriginal culture and lifestyle made it easy. When the British landed, the Aboriginals were naked and covered their bodies in fish oil to keep all the bugs away (their version of bug spray). They were also a nomadic people, hunters and gatherers, so they had no permanent settlements. Their shelters were humpies, bark roofs spread over saplings, and their weapons were mainly to catch and kill food, mainly kangaroo...spears, boomerangs, woomeras. They were also a gentle and trusting people who were willing, at first, to allow white man to colonise their land. It was only when they realised that white man was trying to enslave them and kill them that they banded together and retaliated...and attacked settlers. So that is where the prejudice came from. Then, missionaries decided to 'civilise' the natives, so took their children away from them and put them in 'schools.' This is currently called the 'lost generation.' Now, of course, the majority of Aussies are shocked by the behaviour of their forebears. Aussies today are taught, in primary school, about the wonders of the Aboriginal culture and Dreamtime. The turnaround in attitude in the past 50 years has been amazing, and pleasing, and not before time. A vast majority of sacred sites have now been returned to Aboriginals. Tourists can visit, but the sites are guarded by tribal elders, and tourists view the sites with an Aboriginal tour guide, with certain very sacred areas off-limits for tourists. Uluru (Ayers Rock) is a good example of that.

Bobbie

There is a connection yes. In the forties in some small towns Maoris were not allowed to swim in the public swimming pools at the same time as pakeha and in the forestry town where my husband was raised Maori were not allowed in the dress circle at the local cinema. This was not the case in the big towns. I guess one could say it was small town mentality. The discrimination was not as blatant socially as in Louisiana. Maoris were not allowed to buy liquor until the war years. It was a criminal offence to supply liquor to a Maori in the thirties. Mind you it was not until the thirties here that the marriageable age was raised to 16 from 12 as I found out just the other day! I was horrified! Schooling was mixed in the thirties but there were some country areas where they had Maori schools as the population was mostly Maori and isolated. Maoris were caned at school in my mothers time for speaking Maori. For some two decades now Maori is taught in schools. Kapa Haka (Maori culture) is taught in many schools as an option and there are annual dance etc competitions amongst the schools. There is a protocol which goes along with teaching Te Reo Maori and as well as the language customs are taught. We do not have a proud record in the way Maori were treated but according to the aborigines of Australia on a TV documentary recently they feel NZ is a lot further ahead than Australia at this time in the righting of wrongs so I guess we are trying. As I said before there is still work to be done. I don't know too much about Aboriginal culture but looking from afar I think they are being allowed to participate in important occaisions now such as the opening of the Olympics etc and there is beginning a fostering of Aboriginal art too. Bobbie would know more than me about this. You can be sure at the official opening of the Cup Challenge tomorrow our local iwi will be involved. Iwi plural or singular is tribes. Whanau is extended family. This is another word we Pakeha are using more and more. On Christmas day my son came in and said "Gee the whole whanau are here for once!" I think it is wonderful that the language has been saved. It could well have died.

Carolyn

Thosse are extraordinary posts, Carolyn and Bobbie! You both sound upbeat in regard to the strides both places have made.

As I read this book written by Ernest Gaines, I can't help but wonder how Grant would have felt, had he been real and alive during these times, to find that we have an African-American as Secretary of State, a highly respected former black general in the United States Army, and we even, in this year of 2003, have a declared black condidate for the upcoming presidential office, something unheard of in Grant's time. Still, like you said, there is a lot to be done.

Lorrie

LORRIE....I think he would have been very pleased, proud of his fellow African-Americans and proud to be an African-American.

Bobbie

Lorrie, like you, I am really enjoying and learning from Carolyn and Bobbie's posts. It's funny how you can get stuck in your own little world and forget about the problems or solutions in other parts of the world. I know people who will only look at the local news. Little do they know that whether across the ocean or here in the USA, we are connected to one another. Like dominoes, if one falls, everyone falls.

I think Grant would be very proud to live in this time. It is wonderful how the world as changed. Our world is totally different from the world of the forties. I think the majority of people receive a fair chance in our court systems. We can freely vote, and we can protest if we don't like what happens. I feel Grant would gladly like to time travel to our world.

Beautiful post, HATS. I'm glad you enjoyed the info Carolyn and I were able to give you. Both NZ's Maori's and our ATSI's have such rich and wonderful cultures that were definitely NOT appreciated by the early settlers, just the opposite. It is wonderful for us (I'm sure I speak for Carolyn, too) to see not only appreciation of those cultures but to see those who are members of those cultures feel pride in their cultures and their roots now.

Bobbie

Just to let you all know I'm still involved. Just haven't had time to assimilate and post. HBO showed the movie of this book yesterday, but I only got about half of it. But I have printed out most of the comments, and will get back here later today.

They are predicting ever-increasing amounts of rotten weather for this weekend, so must get out to store early.

Just one comment: I watched the movie carefully yesterday because I wanted to know if they included the minister's speech about "I lie every day"---- To me that was almost the most significant speech in the book.

Anyway, don't close down until I get back this afternoon.

Happy reading.

Am printing the last few posts about the Maori and intend to read them tonight or tomorrow. Will be back after I do.

I regret that I haven't been an active participant so let me post a few quick thoughts before you move on.

Bobbie and Carolyn's posts have been just wonderful. I enjoyed reading them so much. One thing that occurred to me is the possible comparison between the Maori and our own native American Indians - except for the fact that I think we STILL mistreat them here and about the only thing they have going for them is gambling casinos. What a tragedy. As in so many things, I regret that in America we don't look around us and see how things are done WELL in other countries. We seem to be not keeping up - whether it's in health care, respecting others, educating ourselves - oh, so many things. It's terribly sad. And one thing that may pull us out of this self-isolation is hearing how others do things better. So, again, many thank yous to Bobbie and Carolyn.

Now, back to the book. The pagent - one small thing that stuck out was the kids' use of the word "yon" as in "yon star, yon Bethlehem", etc. Obviously a word that was not in their normal vocabularies but one that they kind of got a kick out of using. I loved that. I really could picture that scene. It was neat.

The scenes of rudeness or whatever you want to call it, were so well done. Not overplayed but you sure got the picture. Slowly enjoying refreshments in front of those who were not invited to share, keeping them standing while comfortably seated themselves - it really, really got to me. I wanted to jump into the pages, grab the offenders by the neck and say, "Look, see what jerks you are - what arrogant idiots!" You know, how you wish you had the right words when someone bothers you.

Do you suppose that if some truly, deep down prejudiced people were to be forced to read this book, or better yet to watch the movie - would they see themselves for the pathetic beings they are?

I am reading the book and lurking here, but I have to thank Carolyn and Bobbiecee for providing such a wonderful education on how things are in New Zealand and Australia. Our shared history of man's inhumanity makes me wonder - are human beings innately racist?

No we are not. We learn to be racist. Proof of this is children. My little sister was 4 before she came home after having a bath with her little Fijian friend Janie and asked my Mum why Janie could not get clean. She had never realised til that time her little friend was a different colour. If you brought up children together without any outside influences I believe there would be no racism. Children are not born with racist ideas. Brooke noticed at 4 that one of her friends at kindy was Chinese she had never noticed before.

Brooke- Mummy ----- is different to us.

Mummy --- That is because ----- is Chinese his family came from a different part of the world. Everyone who lives where -----comes from looks like him if we went there we would be the different ones.

Brookes best friend at the moment at school is Feisal a little Muslim boy. Bless my daughter and her teaching. His parents have a convenience store and live above it. Brooke thinks to live above a store is the most exciting thing. Aren't kids just so great?

Carolyn

I agree, Carolyn...it is taught, a learned behaviour. The teaching can either be overt...making derogatory statements, etc, or covert, body language, etc. My children, living in Alice for the first 10+ years of their life had many friends who were half Aboriginal. The first time they realised there was such a thing as prejudice was when we shifted over here and a boy in Greg's high school made a predjudicial remark about a boy who was one of his mates, and half Aboriginal. Greg was most upset, ended up in a bit of a fisticuffs with the prejudiced boy, in defence of his mate. Both Greg and Krysti were most upset to learn that some other people were prejudiced. Greg said 'Why is he saying that about Kevin? He's a good student, and a star Rugby player, and class president?' Krysti was even more distressed. I had to try to explain about prejudice to them. Prejudice, an attitude one has when one has such low self-esteem that they cannot feel equal to others, or accept that others are equal to them, and instead, have to find a group/groups of people to declare are 'lesser than' them, in an attempt to feel 'better than' them.

Bobbie

Bobbiecee and Carolyn, I have really enjoyed your posts about the Aborigininies and the Maori. Since I was awake early(4am) this morning, I spent a peaceful period of time reading those posts. And, then when I tried to go back to sleep, all that I could think of was what Diane spoke of. Our American Indians were treated much like the natives of your Australia and New Zealand. During the early 20th century, we also hauled the children from their homes on the reservations and took them to the American Indian School in Pennsylvania. What were we thinking of? That they needed to be civilized? Whaaaaat? Now, as Diane mentions, they have their casinos, but even inside that, the bossmen are the ones who benefit from the money that comes in, from our pockets. So, no matter what color we are, we do mistreat our fellow man many times. Seems as though its inherent in mankind to want to feel above others. We miss so much when we feel that we are superior to others. And, the loss is irretrievable. If you read some of the books about the southwestern US, even the fiction, you find that many of our Native Americans live lives of quiet desperation.

Did I read that New Zealand is in some kind of trouble in the cup races today? What's that all about? Here's the story from the NZ news online: NZTeam HasTrouble

Back to the book, as Diane says! The Christmas scene is familiar but not familiar. We have all experienced the Christmas play(has anyone else seen the one in "Simon Birch"?) but we are so used to regular Christmas trees with beautiful ornaments and tinsel and lights. Theirs was truly a "Charlie Brown" tree. Bits of crepe paper--red and green- with bits of cotton wool for snow. And, "yon", yes Diane wasn't that a touching picture painted with words by the author? He made you understand what the life of the African/American on the plantations and most other places in the US was like, only 60 years ago.

Without going into long details, we had a young mulatto girl living with us in the 40's whom my brother and I just loved to pieces, and thought of as our older sister. One Saturday afternoon, when we tried to take her to the movies with us, we were shocked that she wasn't allowed into the theatre. So, my mother drove us all down to the "coloured" part of town and paid her way into the theartre there. We tried to go in with her but we weren't allowed in there either. Its a crazy world we live in!!

Along with everyone, I enjoyed the Christmas play. I loved the flashlight that seemed to beam all over the place like a wandering star.

And with everyone else, I think that racism is a learned behavior. Maybe, not always in the home, but with whomever our children play with at school or visit. Being an optimist, I believe that it is a behavior that can be unlearned. We can always change for the better.

Two of my sons married interacially. I worry each and everyday about what kind of experiences my grandchildren will have to live through. This is why I have to be an optimist, always hoping that their life will be different.

I can't remember the words but there is a song from South Pacific called You Have To Be Taught and the theme is just what we're talking about - you have to be taught to hate. I'll see if I can find the words but the song fits right in here.

Thanks, Ann.

Bobbie

I think Jefferson's journal is very interesting. I am glad Grant gave him a notebook and pencil. His writing is leading him to realize what he has missed in life, and he is also learning answers to hard questions about life and death. Jefferson is not the man who went into the whiskey store and witnessed those killings. Neither is Grant the same man. Really, I think the whole town has changed in some way.

You know, Hats, I believe you are right. It does seem as though the whole town is affected by Jeffe4son's fate, and we will see much more of that as we go on.

It is now the 16th and we will proceed on to Chapter 22 and to the ending of the book. Because this is a relatively short book, (with a huge amount to say) I feel that we should use these last two weeks for discussion of the whole book, and I know that everyone has much to post. I just finished the book last night, and I am still shattered by the intensity of the ending, and the absolutely powerful way Gaines writes about the way Jefferson deals with what comes forth.

I will put a new set of questions up above to help you in your comments, for you to ponder at will.

Lorrie

February is Black History month so here is a clip from our local paper.

Black History Month: Local residents tell of their personal heroes

Ginger

Lorrie, I just finished the book a little while ago, and it is EARTH SHATTERING. It makes you think a lot about the death penalty. In those days, death by electrocution was cold, crude, almost evil. I could feel the weight of the chair as it was moved into the storeroom. I do not know whether electrocution is still used. Is death by injection the way now? Are people still electrocuted?

Thank you for the link to Black History Month, Ginger. There are always the quiet heroes. People we will never meet or hear about on the news, but they leave some great deeds behind them.

Ginger, that is a very pertinent post to this discussion, and I thank you for it. There is one name mentioned there that I have always had the utmost respect and admiration for, and that name is Barbara Jordan. What a remrakable person!

Hats, yes, it's enough to change the mind of any capital-punishment freak, isn't it? I could almost feel the repugnance when that truck pulled into town, and the locals saw what it was. I think these last few chapters were absolutely tremendous in their understated emotion, and far and away the best writing in the book, in my estimation. How do the rest of you feel about this form of punishment?

Lorrie

We just finished watching the American Experience episode about the two men who first tried heart surgery. One was Dr. Blalock, a white surgeon and the chief of surgery at JohnsHopkins and his cohort, Vivan Thomas, was listed as a janitor. He was an Afro/American whose 7 yrs of savings for medical school had been wiped away in the bank failure of '29. When the first surgery, which was suggested by a woman pediactric surgeon, was performed by these two men, Thomas stood on a stool telling Blalock how to do the surgery. Blalock insisted on this. Thomas had not only designed the surgical tools for the operation but had performed it 100's of times on lab animals. I was in tear by the end of this compelling story. Yes, he was finally recognized by JohnsHopkins Institute after he turned 60 or more. Wonderful story but just so sad.

Hi Ann, I am sorry to have missed this American Experience episode. I hope it will be repeated. Thank you for sharing the lives of these two men.

ANN!! I was afraid we would have to be sending out St. Bernard dogs after you. You are right in the midst of all that storm, aren't you? Sure hope you're okay! Anyone else here getting the brunt of that storm?

That was an interesting story about the heart surgeons. You told it well.

Lorrie

The whole book!

There is so much to say and so little time to get through it all.

The Death Penalty

I am not in favor of the death penalty. Two wrongs do not make a right. One mistake makes everyone associated with a wrongful execution- murderers or accessories to murder. I could not live with that! The motivation is purely revenge but it does not bring the victims back. It is a short term sop to the victims families. I believe life imprisonment is a far worse punishment in the long term. I believe that there have been many wrongful exections we can think of quite a few cases which have been highly publicised in recent years many of these people were cleared by DNA evidence. It is a peculiar thing that in the Western World it is only in America I think that the death penalty is so well used and one of the few countries where the death penalty is still in force. Why?

To me Jeffersons journal was agonising. I could hardly bear to read it. Jefferson to me was a good human being. His only mistake was to take that ride with those two evil doers! He should never have got the death penalty if the shopkeeper had survived the shooting I am sure he would have given evidence supporting Jeffersons innocence in the shooting and the robbery.

More later!

Carolyn

Carolyn, I couldn't agree more about the death penalty. No matter what method is used, in my opinion it is wrong, wrong. Outside of perhaps bringing a temporary ease of vengeance by the relatives of the victims, I see no good reason to put anyone to death deliberately.

In this particular story, we are left with a feeling of frustration that this innocent young black man will be forced to undergo a public execution for a crime he did no commit.

I really feel that had Jefferson had a decent defense attorney, he might have escaped the sentence he received---or do you think that given the place, and the particular time, it would have made no difference?

Lorrie

Lorrie

Given the place, and the particular time, it would have made no difference?

I agree. Thank God things are changing for the better I hope.

Ginger

Jefferson would have been unlikely to get a good attorney as white attorneys of any substance would not have dared to defend a black man even if there had been enough money to engage one!

I am thinking of Sam Guidry now. The all powerful Sheriff. He and his BIL keeping Grant Wiggins waiting two and a half hours after they had called him up to the big house for five o'clock. How they enjoyed teaching Grant his place in the world! The Sheriff again referring to Jefferson as less than human. (hog thing again) The open dislike of Grant for being an educated black man, capable of using grammar better than their own. I believe from what I have read and what I have seen- people like the Sheriff still exist in tiny towns in the deep South. Small town people seem to be the same all over the world. Not open to new ideas, parochial and full of old prejudices. How difficult it must have been for Grant to keep hold of the anger he must have been feeling. I was angry myself as I read this Chapter of the book!

Carolyn

Yes, Carolyn, one of the lesser things that really angered me was reading about all the "little" ways those bigoted white people showed their contempt---like making them wait after ordering them to appear, insisting on being addressed with titles, being irritated if a black man or woman tried to correct their pronounciations, and not allowing direct eye contact.

As whites, we have been indignant over the fundamental injustices of discrimination, as with any of their Civil Rights, but how many of us can possibly imagine what it must be like to have to endure, day after day, these constant "put-downs" and affronts to our dignity? And the horror of it is, as you just mentioned, Carolyn, there are still pockets of people like that in various small communities in this country. That sheriff, for instance, can be seen caricaturized on TV as the "good ole boy" police officer, with shiny badge and dark sunglasses. Grant could not even correct the simple pronounciation of a work like "battery" without offending the sheriff.

Lorrie

We have all read books like this before. We have heard these lessons taught and we have seen what happens when we refuse to learn them.

We heard the voice of innocence lost in To Kill a Mockingbird when Scout realized that racism for the sake of tradition is still racism. Now, in this book, the author has given us a voice from the other side of the tracks. And what a voice it is!

******************************************************************

In Chapter 27, at the beginning of the chapter, what was your reaction to the confrontation between Grand and the preacher, in Grant's room?

Lorrie

Rev. Ambrose seems to feel uncomfortable with himself. It's as if he needs to prove that he is of more value than Grant. I like Grant for sticking to his guns and remaining honest. If he doesn't believe in a certain idea, he is not going to pretend to believe in it just to make the minister happy or content.

The Preacher

I see the Afro American society in this book as being much like our Pacific Island Community. The church being the centre of their world. Its their social world and their spiritual world. To be a preacher in these societies is to be very respected and to have great mana (kudos) Mana is a Maori Word meaning (kudos) Mana is another word which has crept into common usage here. The Preacher survives in his world and has some pride because of his position. This is not knocking his beliefs which are very very sincere.He cannot understand Grant's position and Grant has thrown off any spiritual beliefs he has because of anger and bitterness (very understandable) Grant cannot understand the Preacher either. However I believe as the book progresses each man moves closer toward the others point of view meeting somewhere in the middle. We see Jefferson taking comfort from Grant in one aspect and obtaining peace at the end with his own beliefs. Both the Preacher and Grant have input in the Jefferson who goes to the chair, a man, at the end of the day. Grant was the unwilling instrument in the metamorphosis which took place but at the end of the day he gained as much as Jefferson. He too was changed forever from his experience.

Carolyn

carolyn:

In your post, "However I believe as the book progresses each man moves closer toward the others point of view meeting somewhere in the middle," i do believe you have said it very clearly. I have the same feeling about this strained relationship between Grant and the preacher.

By the way, to our snow-bound co-host here: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DEAR ANN!

Lorrie

Carolyn, I agree that both the Rev. and Grant helped make Jefferson strong enough to take those last steps. I do feel that the Rev. tried to strong arm Grant into believing in an afterlife, heaven. Grant had not given up all of his beliefs. He said over and over again that he believed in God.

I think in those days, the forties, the church was the main center for sprituality and education and all that was important in the Afro-American's life. The importance of education, in the forties, would have been new to the quarter. The need for religion, a Savior, would not have been a new idea.

Now, in this, our time, I feel that the church and school or education are seen as going hand in glove. One can not go without the other. The preacher works along with the teacher. From the pulpit, the young people are encouraged to get an education. This is why Miss. Emma was ahead of her time. She could see that Jefferson needed a preacher and a teacher to help him become a strong man.

I love learning about New Zealand. This is so much fun!

I would like to say Happy Birthday, Ann!!

Me, too, Ann. I hope the snow isn't causing too much misery - but more, perhaps, giving you time to curl up with a good book!

Yes, this is fun, isn't it? I must say, I really enjoy participating with you all here, I think we all feel a certain awe about this book. I know I had never paid much attention to Ernest Gaines' writing before, but I can assure you that I will from now on.

Here is an interesting link about a misguided (?) doctor and his wife who succeeded in banning, temporarily, the book "Lesson Before Dying<" among others. I read these things and get so exasperated!

Book Banning

Lorrie, I went to that link and read about the "misguided doctor and his wife". Good grief! I think he said something about not wanting the children to be "desensitized" by such reading. Where do people like this come from? If anything, "Lesson Before Dying" would serve to sensitive readers to what may be going on around them.

I don't know whether to weep in sadness or wail in rage. Maybe a shot at punching him in the nose (the doctor) would suffice for now!

Hats - How I wish you could come here! I could show you so much. I think we have a unique society for all the mistakes we make we are a special people I think. We are very modest in the long run have strong convictions, no patience with lying politicians, and we are trying as best we can to have an equal society. I am proud if what we have achieved and one of those things is NZ will never be mastered by any other country no matter how big they are. We don't take kindly to being bullied. We are generous, giving more than any other nation per head of population to overseas charities and when money is needed here we always give with a willing heart. You are the first African American I have ever met but I have met Africans. I value your input into this discussion. I met one of the past leaders of Kenya at My BILs home when he was a student. My BIL and his wife worked in Kenya on a mission station. My BIL was made an honorary chief he was loved so much. They left reluctantly when their villagers gave them warning of a Mau Mau attack. I used to love to see all the photographs my BIL and SIL bought back from Kenya.

Imagine if we did not have this site we would never be able to meet so many interesting and diverse people. Its so great!

Carolyn

Thanks for the birthday greetings! Yes, this site is really special. Look at how we have become attached to each other. One of my friends likened us to a "worldwide neighborhood community" and she is so right.

I had a question here about Rev Ambrose and Grant. I read somewhere that Grant rejected his faith because it is also the white man's faith. And, that Ambrose felt that his faith enabled him to stand up against the white man's "justice". How do we resolve this paradox?

And, Hats, you have answered my other question about how the faith of the African Americans has empowered them along with their schools.

Many years ago, I felt that our churches, our families and our schools formed a tripod for the child and that our schools and churches changed so much that they fell down on their job. Not giving the parents any support either. It does take a village to raise a decent person.

Lorrie, thanks for the link. It is unbelievable the wonderful books that people are willing to ban. And Ann, you wrote so clearly what I wanted to write, "It does take a village."

I have been thinking about the questions above in the heading. I do not think we practice what we preach. Many times we have already judged people as guilty before the trial. We read so much in the newspapers, and we see so much on the news. "Innocent until proven guilty" becomes just a principle that is written on paper. If Jefferson had murdered the storekeeper, I think he would not have made it to a trial in the forties. I think Jefferson would have been shot or hung by a vigilante gang.

Just an aside here on the presidency of Truman which was in swing when this story takes place. In 1947, Truman called for state and federal action against lynching and the poll tax, an end to inequality in education, employment, the whole cast system based on race or color. Again, in 1948, speaking to Congress on the state of the union, he called for a federal law against "the crime of lynching, against which I cannot speak too strongly." This astonished me when I read it and it still astonishes me that the lynchings had to have a separate law enacted against them. Wasn't murder, murder then? We needed a separate law? Anyway, my point here is that Truman was the first president to speak out on civil rights since Lincoln. What were we doing all that time? Sticking our heads in the sand? Before he was president, Truman a Missouri congressman, headed up a civil rights committee in 1938. He was thought to have committed "political suicide" when he spoke of civil rights.

Hat you are right it's more like guilty until proved innocent today. I think also the media can influence some cases. I think of some cases where vengeful children have accused their parents of abuse. Even when the parents have been found innocent their lives have been ruined forever. People thinking "Where there is smoke there is fire" It is something to ponder on.

Carolyn

Ann, I connected with your question, "Wasn't murder, murder then? We needed a separate law?" It's unbelieveable to me that in recent times it was apparently NOT against the law to lynch people! To me, recent times are those that I can remember. But yes, why do we always need additional laws that are already covered by existing laws? I am thinking of the recent flurry about crimes considered as "hate" crimes. Isn't a crime by its very nature an act of hate? Is there such a thing as a friendly murder? I also object to the thought that it's a "worse" crime to kill an officer of the law than an ordinary citizen.

As I said, Diane, isn't murder, murder? Now, we can delineate between "Hate" and what? Its just too incredible to me that we actually had to pass a law making lynching illegal. Ludicrous!

I agree with Hats and Carolyn.

Bobbie

While looking up something else, I came upon this website, and I thought I would show the link here because of the relevance to our discussion. If you decide to view the photgraphs, let me warn you that they are very graphic, and not for the faint-hearted.

It's amazing to me how this sort of monstrosity could even have happened, and really not that long ago in history. Has any other nation been so cruel to their people of color?

P.s. It's interesting to note that in that collection of photos I saw one of two Italian emigrees, and one unknown white man. Here is the link:

NO SANCTUARY

one of the viewers expressed her horror in their Forum:

"I am completely speakless. I can't believe that some many people were at these terrible lynchings like it was the biggest social event of the year. Even worse, these were used as postcards like it was an important event no to be missed. It made me sick and ashamed to see what these white people did to these African Americans who did nothing but breath and live. All I can say is I am speechless.

- Amy Barker 1/23/03"

And it is not that long ago that there was a trial of the men who dragged that innocent African-American so far behind their truck that he was beheaded. At least they had an arrest and a trial there!

Lorrie

Man's inhumanity to man. On the International scene. The big nations are reluctant to help African people who are being murdered by despot rulers yet they will rush into Iraq which has oil. I often think that Africa does not matter the same because the people have black skins. I get very angry over this and other matters.

Carolyn

Same here, Carolyn...

Bobbie

Bobbee, and Carolyn:

Much as I hate to admit it, I feel there is something in what you say. For instance, African children starving don't seem to affect people as much as the flag-waving, militaistic exhortations to go to war and kill thousands do. I sometimes wonder where our sense of values has gone.

But to get back to the book---I've been rereading about Jefferson's desire to have certain people present at his execution, and the name Harry Williams came up again. For some reason, as I go back in my reading, I cannot find that reference. Who was Harry Williams and why was he at Jefferson's execution? I must have skimmed over that part.

Lorrie

Unfortunately, Lorrie, capitalism and greed seem to have quashed humitarian principles.

Bobbie

Hello, everyone. I do not have this book, nor do I intend to join this discussion, but I couldn't sleep and read these incredible posts. They reminded me of the time I lived in Durham, North Carolina for a year --1958-1959 -- when my husband did post doctoral work at Duke.

I was born and raised in Massachusetts, and there were very few Black families in the small city where I grew up. My mother died in 1940 when I was a child, and I was told years later when I returned to my hometown to live after 25 years of living out of New England that one of my mother's best friends was an African American woman. I never knew it. The aunt and uncle who raised me were not kind about most ethnic groups and races outside their own, and would never tell me that about my mother. Prejudice was alive and well in the North, though generally hidden.

It was not hidden in North Carolina in the late 50's. An old lady neighbor, Mrs. MacAllister, trotted up to the house where I lived right away and told me I had to have a maid, and she knew just the one. I'd never had help, but with two little boys at that time and a brace on my leg, I decided it was a good idea. Ozie came up the following day, dressed in clothes of wondrous patterns and colors. It was impossible to tell how old Ozie was, but she had to be over sixty. She worked hard and kept telling me to go practice the piano when I tried to help. When I asked her how much she charged, she told me, "Fi' dollar". I couldn't believe it, and paid her more, though she wouldn't accept much more. She was a very proud woman.

Mrs. MacAllister then decided I needed a yard man. Since my husband was at the laboratory night and day seven days a week, and grass grows fast in that climate, and things needed fixin', I hired George when Mrs. M. sent him to my house. He also charged five dollars for a day's work. When I asked him why he didn't work at one of the tobacco companies in town, he told me there weren't any jobs there for a man his age, so he took whatever jobs he could find. I suppose George was pushing sixty-five.

Another neighbor decided I should go to Sunday School and church with her. I went once. I heard the preacher tell the Sunday School class that if you bought "them people" bathtubs they raised chickens in them, and that was enough for me.

Years later in the early 80's, I played the piano at weekly services in a strict Southern Baptist Church in St. Augustine, Florida because I needed money to support myself and my brain-injured son. Each Sunday I heard Brother Etheridge preach from the pulpit against Blacks, Catholics and Jews. I taught piano once a week to 17 of the children who attended that church-run school. Some of them told me about their daddies who were in the Ku Klux Klan.

In the late 50's in North Carolina there were separate drinking fountains, one marked Black, one marked White. African Americans had to ride in the back of the bus. Schools were segregated, of course, and restaurants would not allow Black people to go in. I had read many of the books you've mentioned here, but until I saw with my own eyes what was going on, I really didn't believe it. I wrote several articles about what I saw, which were published in a small northern publication. This was before the first sit-in at Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro, NC on February 1, 1960.

I moved back to North Carolina in late 1989. The changes that have occurred here in Chapel Hill, Durham and Raleigh since 1959 are remarkable. African Americans hold high executive jobs at the Research Triangle Park and in banks, teach school and are professors at the universities, medical doctors at Duke and the University of North Carolina hospitals, lawyers, etc.

Two African American sisters come to my small apartment to "clean for that crippled lady in the wheelchair with the computer", as they call me, for an hour and a half each week. One is a college graduate, a retired elementary school teacher. The other is a licensed nurse's aide. We talk about a lot of things together. I call them the Angel Soul Sisters, and they laugh. I can't wait to tell them about this discussion when they're here next Monday.

That's all from me, and I won't be back. I apologize for the long interruption.

Mal

Mal, thanks for your input here in the discussion. Interesting story you write. It was the same for any of us who moved to the South during the 50's and 60's. Not understanding the idea of "Jim Crow" laws, resenting being told where to sit on a bus, I, too, was offended by the treatment of the African/Americans of the South. Yes, there is still some of this going on but it has lessened with the passage of time. Change comes very slowly unfortuneately for the human race.

As to the African problem, I still don't understand our wanting to send money to Africa for helping with the AIDS problem and at the same time, we are over there recruiting their specially AIDS-trained nurses to come over here. What are we thinking about? We offer them 4 or 5 times what they are making over there to come here. Most of the AIDS nurses in Africa make $5000 to $7000 a year in Africa. Well, if we offer them up to $35,000, it sounds fantastic but over here ( many are bringing their husbands and children) that kind of money won't support them. The whole scheme is ludicrous! And, what did the American recruiter say, "Well, we have to get them to come to the US before some other country gets them!" What are we thinking of? And, while I am on my soapbox, why isn't the US government spending some of that AIDS money to train our nurses here in the US for AIDS caretaking. Seems to me that would be the humane way to treat this problem, leaving those specially trained nurses to work in their home country where they are much needed. Okay, I'm done!

Well, never let it be said that we are not free-thinkers here! I love it when we can give out our opinions, and Ann, I agree with what you were saying about the nurses.

Mal, that was a truly remarkable story. I think the most heartening thing about it is the uplift feeling I got when you wrote about those remarkable changes over the years. reading that makes us think that there is hope, after all.

By the way, tell your "Angel Soul Sisters" that if they have a computer to come in and join our discussion. We would love to see them post here. We already have one wonderful African-American in our midst (perhaps more, who knows?) who has helped a lot toward understanding these things from another point of view. Also, if you havn't read this book, I strongly recommend that you do. (Easy to get from the library) As a writer yourself, you will appreciate how this man was able to convey such compassion and emotion into so few words.

Lorrie

Let me apologize for not participating more on a day-to-day basis. But, I have a built-in tendency to “take days off” for any reason whatsoever, and this week’s snow was a good enough reason for me to suspend “duty” for a while.

However, I have printed out and read all of the messages (up til last night), and had already marked passages in the book that gripped me. And if this is an extremely long comment please look at it as a series of shorter postings.

Oh, and by the way, the movie is going to be shown on the HBO set of channels- first on Feb. 23 at 3:15 pm, and again on Feb. 27 at 7:15 pm. I don’t know just which HBO channel will have it but if you have HBO, you can check online.

First of all, I found the book extremely upsetting to read --in fact, it affected me more deeply than the movie-- because the written word stimulates my imagination more than seeing actors portraying the scene. The book deals with two issues that I have opposed almost since the age of reason. The first is, of course, the death penalty. I was about 10 when Bruno Hauptman was tried and executed for the kidnap/murder of the Lindbergh baby. I read every word in our paper about it, and it was also about that time that I read Warden Lawes’s 20++ Years in Sing Sing. And I believe that there were some horrific (to me, at least) descriptions of electrocutions. And I decided that I could never favor the cold-blooded putting to death of another human being, no matter what that person had done. I did see the movie “The Green Mile”, and even tho it was a well-done movie, the electric chair scenes really disturbed me.

Secondly, I have always been an advocate of what was called in the earlier days, “tolerance” and “equality”, As a child of a Slovak parent, I was often called ‘hunky’ on the playground (shows how much THEY knew, I wasn’t Hungarian) and I didn’t like it much. So when the same kids would refer to a colored child as a “chocolate drop” it got my dander up. And again, I have never wavered from that position. Some day I must tell you how I dragooned a group of girls on my floor at college one Saturday night and read “Strange Fruit” aloud to them. Made some real converts, I did.

So here goes. I think Gaines was very adept at slipping in bits that screamed the injustice of the attitude of the white population without getting on a soapbox. On page 156 (paperback), Grant is describing the sheriff’s attitude: “He did not like me; I was one of the smart ones.” Again, on page 177 he remarks, “Yes, sir, batries,” I said. I had almost said ‘batteries.” He uses this sort of comment several times in the book-- really saying is that he is an educated man and knows the correct words but to ‘get along’ in the world he lives in he must deliberately use the speech of the ‘uneducated’ black man. I winced each time I came across those bits.

And on pp 166-167 his brandy-induced monologue beginning with “We black men have failed to protect our women since the time of slavery.-----“ I think that whole bit is the essence of what Gaines is saying about the way blacks were looked upon. And how degrading it was.

On page 209 begins Vivian’s side of the story when she demands “What IS me? Tell me, what IS me?” Insisting that just his telling her he loves her isn’t enough. And she wants to know just what he thinks love is.

And finally, on page 217 when Grant tells the Reverend that he “couldn’t lie to Jefferson. Couldn’t tell him another lie, no matter what.” And the Reverend comes back with ‘You think you the only person ever had to lie? You think I never had to lie?” And goes on to tell Grant all the ways he has had to lie to his ‘flock’ for their own peace of mind.

I think each of the above quoted sections defines the person who is speaking. Gets right down to the guts and it tears me apart because I know that was the way it was, and in many places–although more disguised and indirect still is today.

Those are my comments on the book itself.

Now to respond to some of the posts individually:

LORRIE/KIWI: you remarked that Jefferson would have been unlikely to get a good attorney as no white attorney would have dared defend a black man. And you are right. Given the lack of someone with the stature of Clarence Darrow ANY defense for Jefferson would have been ineffectual because everyone knew that he would be found guilty. Just because he was there and ran AND, I think, because he was the only one left who could be prosecuted. And we see that even today. Someone must be punished and they take the nearest reasonable suspect, leading to the cases of convicted murderers later being exonerated by DNA.

HATS: “teach us how to live as a colored man”. Your comments are right on the mark.

KIW/HATS: About your comments on the term “nigger”. We have a TV show here in the states called “Boston Public” about a highschool in Boston and the situations that come up. A while back one of the teachers decided to get his class to discuss the term ‘nigger’ so he bought copies of the book “Nigger” for all of the class and directed them to read it and then discuss it in class. And, as you might expect, brought down a firestorm from both the whites and blacks in the school and their parents.

And now may I say that this is the only book discussion I’ve managed to stay in til the end. (I did stick with Correli’s Mandolin until we stopped it right after 9/11). This was a book of real substance.

And NOW, to put on my boots and venture out. A kind neighbor dug my car out the other day, and with the temperature above freezing I think I dare try to get to the store.

Hi Mal and JeanLock,

Mal, I felt very moved reading about your life stories. All of us have shared so much throughout this book. I hope, like Lorrie said, that we do get a chance to meet the special Angel Soul Sisters. Mal, even when I am not in a particular book discussion, I enjoy and learn from your posts. I learn not just about the book, but also about your personal experiences.

And JeanLock, from the beginning, I have gained more from the book by reading your posts, and I can feel your empathy for anyone of another race.Your quotes that you gave above are the same ones that have moved me deeply.

Each post has been truly moving and so heartfelt. This is one of the many book discussions I will always remember.

I have a relative who proudly told me she had her kitchen remodelled for thousands less than the going rate because she employed a builder who was an alcoholic and would work for much less. Is this not a form of exploitation too. She used the recession and a mans addiction for her own gain. I saw the work it was very good. I felt sick as the relative is very very rich. This book has made me think of other forms of discrimination and exploitation too.

I have no idea who the Harry Person is either. Have we found out yet?

We have not discussed Paul very deeply yet either. (the deputy in the prison)

Back later.

Carolyn

Jeanlock:

I had completely fogotten about "Corelli's Mandolin!" Wonderful book, wasn't it, and we were just going strong when disaster struck.

Your posts here are so welcome. I was hoping that someone would pick up on those three confrontations you mentioned. Three that meant so much, between Grant and Vivian, between Grant and the preacher, and between Grant and the sheriff. This is a perfect example of how Gaines can write intensely moving segments without an excess of words, a trait that very few even good writers can do.

Carolyn:

I have known people like your relative, and who see nothing wrong in exploiting people, either. I think it's contemptible.

Did you know Paul's last name? Was it ever even mentioned? Anyone? And I still don't know where the Williams character came from. I can't find the first mention of him but I know it was earlier in the book.

Lorrie

MAL....I was very moved by your story....and it was very apropos to this discussion. Also, Ann and Jean's posts. Man's inhumanity to man. I get so angry at this inhumanity....judging people by the colour of their skin, the slant of their eyes, etc...no attempt to see the person within. We've had an incident here in the past few days where a 28 year old man bashed Asian students. He's been arrested now....he'll serve a sentence, then be deported. Sicko!

CAROLYN...Exploitation of alcoholics occurs here as well. It is well known that when sober, alcoholics are fantastic workers and perfectionists. It's one thing to pay award rates, another to exploit.

Bobbie

Lorrie, I found Harry Williams and his place in this novel on Page 238 of the PPB. He was a volunteer from the quarter as a witness to Jefferson's execution. Asked to do this by Rev Ambrose through a request from Sheriff Guidry.

Well, thank you, Hawk-eye Ann! I've been combing back through and I couldn't find that, and it was beginning to nag at me.

I couldn't find any mention of Paul's last name, either, but I do feel that, in this particular book, he was about the most decent of any of the white characters that Gaines depicted, which isn't really saying much, is it?

I know this isn't really related, but I wanted to mention something I just remembered. Years ago when I was working in a stationery supply office I watched one of my white co-workers gushing over some of our African-American co-workers, and then listening to this same white worker spew forth her bigotry when alone with just whites. This blatant hypocrisy disgusted me and it must have showed on my face because my black friend looked at me and said, "Don't worry---we can sense when it's all phoney." This comment struck me and since then I've always felt that black people have a built-in sensor that tells them when someone is not sincere.

Lorrie

Well congratulations Anne! I looked and looked! I wonder if Harry Williams wanted to be a witness or if he was told he had to be a witness!

Carolyn

Lorrie--

Ref your co-worker. I was reminded of something a friend of mine said one day when we were discussing the civil rights issues (circa 1965).

He said, "You can never know them; but they always know you." I tend to think he was right. I suspect that's because in order to survive, they had to be really tuned in to all the nuances.

Lorrie,

I felt like Paul was a decent guy too. It was pretty nice of Paul to give the radio to the other prisoners instead of keeping it for himself.

Even Guidry changed. He trusted Jefferson with his knife. Jefferson needed the knife to sharpen his pencil. I think they realized it was a horrible mistake executing Jefferson, but I guess nothing could be done about it by the time the paperwork was in order.

I remember Harry Williams now. I could not remember him or find him in the book. Now, he stands out clearly.

Hi JeanLock,

I think we were writing at the same time. I am still thinking about the questions in the heading. I like question four, but I am having a hard time coming up with the answers. In a way, I see Jefferson as a Christ figure because he died without doing anything wrong. Jefferson went to his death without "a mumbling word" or without complaint.

In question #3, I think violence is totally the wrong way to go. I like the philosophies of Martin Luther King and Ghandi. Peace can accomplish far more than bloodshed.

There is a place for constructive anger. Creativity is a great place to get my frustrations out. I like to keep a journal. Movie stars use acting. I am thinking of Sidney Poitier, Cicely Tyson, Denzel Washington and others. I think some people might even use laughter as a way to deal with anger, but VIOLENCE NEVER WORKS. That's my feeling.

During Martin Luther King's death, there were riots in Philadelphia. Nothing was accomplished. Stores were burnt, and many stores were looted. Thankfully, I did not live nearby.

I still think Grant was too harsh towards the children. I could understand Grant's anger, but I thought it was misplaced.

Violence never solved anything. To me as a foreigner and please do not take this the wrong way but to me as I look on it seems that many Americans have a "revenge" culture. I think this is why the death penalty seems to have so much support and President Bush is wanting to go to War.

I cannot understand why people want to hurt others. Two wrongs do not make a right. I am totally antiviolence. I am anti war with one exception only- I would fight should we be invaded.

I take heart from the two men I admire the most in all the world. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. There are still people with ideals in this world but the sad thing is so many times the people with ideals lose their lives because evil people do not want their ideals to become reality because it does not serve their purpose.

Where I differ from many liberals is that I have a moral stand on a lot of issues too. I think we can be too liberal on the moral front. Maybe I am an oddity I do not know but I believe we have a state responsibility to care for our citizens that every person has the right to work, the right to a decent roof over their heads, adequate education and healthcare. The right to free speech also. If we could manage all of these things before I go to my maker I would be a happy woman.

Carolyn

Carolyn:

What you say is very earnest, and I can feel the sincerity in how you feel about the things you posted. You painted a lovely picture of a much nicer world, if only, if only!

I am like millions of other people who would like to see more heroes today. Yes, men and women of the ilk of Nelson Mandela, Reverend Martin King, and another favorite of mine, Barbara Jordan. I am so disillusioned at the actions of our people in office that sometimes I feel like abandoning the privelege of voting altogether. We had a potential hero here in Minnesota, Paul Wellman, the only Senator in all that cowardly bunch to stand up and protest against a sudden war with Iraq, but who was killed soon after in a plane crash.

Did you notice how, when Grant was talking to Jefferson toward the end, that when he looked at Jefferson standing at the window looking out, Jefferson appeared to him very tall, whereas he had formerly been slumped down. It was a stirring thought.

Hats:

I also tried to match up the book characters with the Christian allegory, those of Biblical times, but found it too hard, also. There was something faintly suggestive of Jesus Christ in Jefferson's life, and I suppose we could liken Sheriff Guidry to Pontius Pilate. After that, I'm at a loss.

Lorrie

As we wind down now towards the end of the book, before I forget, I would like to say what a wonderful bunch you all are. this has been an extremely interesting discussion, and I have felt very close to you all. I really feel as though you are all WHANAU!

Lorrie

Will each of you please write in as many words as you wish, what your honest opinion of this book is, and how it had an impact on you, if any.

Lorrie - well done!

Carolyn

CAROLYN.....As an ex-American, I agree with you as to the 'revenge' culture....both the death penalty and the desire to go to war (and the glorification of war). Those were two of the items in my pro-con list that I made before I migrated here. 'An eye for an eye' is the Old Testament belief. In the New Testament, Jesus countered what had been written in the Old Testament. Therefore, I believe that those who adhere to Old Testament beliefs are in essence practicing Judaism, not Christianity. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

As you said, Carolyn, two wrongs do not make a right. I've worked in Corrections for years, so am not a naive 'care bear,' and have also seen some nasty crims. However, I've also seen a number of wrongful convictions, which were over-turned after DNA tests. Also, I'm aware that justice, in many instances, is not just. One has less chance of being wrongfully convicted if one is wealthy and a WASP. I've seen evidence manufactured so police and proscuter's can 'win' their case. Justice is more a 'win-lose' game than justice, especially when one is poor and/or a minority group member. Power is the name of the game...in the justice system, in the corporate world, and most especially, in the world of international politics...especially evident at present...and in 99.9% of the situations, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Nelson Mandela is the man I most admire in the world as well, Carolyn. Like you (and your PM, in contrast with ours) I take a stand based on morals, values and principles. I think the the majority of both Aussies and Kiwis are taking this stand as well.

LORRIE....I felt the book was very well written, and the message was very clearly presented. The impact it had on me was to continue to do what I have done for years...see the person within.

Bobbie

I've been keeping up with the complex ideas and comments in your posts, though I haven't left a post for a while. I love this accidental coming together of people in this group discussion.....it is a SAFE place to say what's on our minds on these sensitive issues. An aura of trust has been established. This happens from time to time in Books and Lit, and isn't it wonderful? A large chunk of credit goes to the leaders and the rest of the credit goes to the individual posters.

I think you're on to something, Carolyn (Kiwi), with your comparison of the U.S. with other developed countries. We're the only developed country who still uses the death penalty. Maybe it's the youthful age of our country; maybe we're still in our teens.....or we're stuck in our recent wild-wild west character image. I don't know. Furthermore, I must say that in my lifetime, I've never seen our image as a country more at risk than it is now. I heard on the national news today that British Prime Minister Blair's ratings are plummeting in England, that his position beside Bush may end his political life. That stunned me.

I don't know if the U.S. use of the death penalty is related to how or if or why we may go to war.....that would be pretty difficult to establish, one to one. There are several methods in science that use groups of variables that could be related to other groups of variables. Or, another test is to see how a large group of variables break down into clusters. The question itself is truly interesting.

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There were several comments about "hate crimes." I go back and forth on how I feel about legislation on hate crimes. Someone wrote (so sorry I didn't write your name down...Carolyn? Jeanlock?) that murder is murder. I would say that we already break down murder into various weights of responsibility.....1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter. Other words are pre-meditated, self-defense, diminished capacity. Maybe there are other distinctions, but I just know these words from watching movies and reading books.

So, we are already used to thinking that one murder may be different from another. Someone may have 2 and a half glasses of wine at dinner in a restaurant, then has an accident while driving home. She is charged with manslaughter because one passenger in the other car is killed. That is different from a deliberate and brutal killing of a person because his skin color or genetic sexual orientation is threatening. Should there be a different charge from 1st degree murder on this 2nd example? I don't know. Maybe so.

Maybe we should compare to another 1st degree murder. A guy robs a liquor store and shoots and kills the man behind the counter. That's always 1st degree murder. That seems different to me than dragging someone behind a truck. Different from that young Navy gay man who was beaten beyond recognition in a men's restroom. There is often extreme brutality in "hate crimes," to the point that the police will wonder, "Is he gay?" when they first see a mangled body.

I don't know all the reasons why it would be good to have that law. Practically speaking, it probably wouldn't change the amount or level of punishment.....it will be severe, either way. One positive reason to have it would be to raise consciousness, to inform the public. Increased knowledge is always a good thing. Someone who doesn't see any harm in telling racist jokes might finally see the harm.

----------------------------------------

I still have a reaction each time I read/hear a group of people called "they." Within "they" are as many differences as there are in any other large group. The individual differences within the group preclude any "they." Those studying the DNA characteristics tell us that humans are 99.9999 alike. There is no DNA code for skin color (that was a surprise to the scientists). It comes from a lowly gene, just like eye color. In other words, as a group of humans, we are very much alike. Another way to say it is.....I am more like several Asian and several Blacks and several people who live in Oregon (who happen to be readers and music lovers and feminists) than I am to the rest of the world. My skin color is somewhere waaaayy down the list of what makes me similar or different. I'm talking on a global scale.

On a local, cultural scale, if I'm in high school, I might meet with all my white (or Asian or Black) friends for lunch because the cultural tradition to group together by skin color is so strong. When I get to college, that cultural pressure will lessen. When I'm in my first job, depending on the job, I'll probably obey the company cultural atmosphere. Also, it matters what city I live in and if I live in the south or west coast or east coast or north.

When all human characteristics are listed, though, both genetic and cultural, (smart, curious, introverted, extroverted, loyal, wants children, doesn't want children, is ambitious, is not ambitious, enjoys reading, enjoys being with people, pays bills on time, believes in God, doesn't believe in God, loves to cook, loves to build model airplanes, contributes to community, is politically liberal or conservative, etc., etc.,), I am as similar to people with different skin color as I am to people with the same skin color as mine. I am more similar to some men than I am to some women. In a group of individual humans from all over the world, our differences average out, but in physical and mental characteristics, we are 99.9999 percent similar.

Sorry for the quick and sloppy explanations. I just had an interesting thought!! It's probable that I am more similar to Hats than I am to my sister. My brothers and Mother and I value books, but my sister doesn't. She loves being with her first grandchild, but thinks reading to him would be "too boring." They watch cartoons together, instead. I love my sister, but we speak in two languages. Our conversations are all surface level. I don't know Hats personally, but I've valued and understood her posts here, on really complex and important subjects.

Great questions above, Lorrie and Ann. I have one or two other things to mull over, then I may try to tackle some of those questions.

Betty

Now that I've written "99.9999 percent," I'm doubting that I've remembered it correctly. Was it 98 percent? I'll find it, then let you know. Another reason I'm doubting is that I heard it on a science channel some time ago, and I have little faith in numbers heard on television, although I would trust a science channel over any network news (who are notorious for misinterpreting science numbers). Sorry. I should have looked for it before writing it in a post.

Betty

Ok, from the Human Genome Project site, http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/ is this quote......

How is DNA typing done?

Only one-tenth of a single percent of DNA differs from one person to the next. Scientists can use these variable regions to generate a DNA profile of an individual, using samples from blood, bone, hair, and other body tissues and products.

Betty

Well, I hate to see this book discussion end. I have met many new friends and grown closer to the friends I already knew. I feel we will share an invisible but special bond in the next book discussion.

Lorrie and Ann were great discussion leaders. Each link and heading made the book more meaningful. I read the poem by Claude McKay almost everyday because it was such an appropriate poem for the book. Lorrie and Ann unknowingly egged me on to make comments when I might have lost my "tongue" and stopped writing for fear of making a wrong comment or not understanding someone or something written in the book.

All of the posts helped me understand myself better. It doesn't take another black person to help a black person understand their inner side. That understanding can come from any one. The color does not matter. We learn that here in BOOKS everyday. Each author can speak to each of our ethnic backgrounds and make our life that much richer.

Betty, maybe you did not post everyday, but the posts that you did write spoke right to my inner soul. I could tell you could understand me and my race, and you understood with a heart of understanding and love. It's not in quantity. It's in quality, and your posts were truly authentic.

I would name everyone, name by name, but I would surely forget someone, and I would feel very sad.

I am so glad this book was chosen. I give the person or persons who picked it a special bow. I am glad it will be archived. One day I will enjoy rereading it.

By the way, as far as my name, you can call me Hats or Hattie. I am not that particular. Each name brings a fond memory.

Thanks to BOOKS for helping us come to a place of intimacy although we are far away in miles.

Oh, one more comment. I thought about the store owner last night. He was a victim of crime. He suffered needlessly. He seemed like a kind man. He asked about Miss Emma before he died. Maybe, he is the symbol of Jesus Christ. His life should not have been taken. I never want to forget the victims of crime.

Betty I always love your posts! I am glad you could join us. Hats its been lovely to meet you too hope to see you again in other discussions. Everyone here after a bit of initial hesitation has tackled this difficult topic very honestly. I think we have the best discussions in SN! We discuss the book and Oh so much more! Once again it has been a privilege to join you.

I am putting up posters and handing out bookmarks in our local libraries hoping to get more Kiwis involved. One of our librarians asked me about SN books yesterday. I will have to change the posters soon and add the March books!

Thank you to Lorrie and everyone of you!

Carolyn

HATS--

But did Jefferson redeem mankind? Or even his own people? True, he might be called Christ-like because he did come to grips with his fate before he died.

Betty:

You have The ability to get right to the heart of a subject. and that's apparent here in your statement, "it is a safe place to say what's on our minds on these sensitive issues. An aura of trust has been established."

I can't tell you how good that makes me feel, and I'm sure I can speak for Ann too, bless her! I would like to respond also to some of the thoughtful things you posted, but there is something first that I wanted to mention here, because in a way, it has to do with racism, perceived or otherwise.

I don't know how you others feel about it, but I am thinking lately that this whole idea of Political Correctness is being carried to the extreme. Last night I heard on TV about how an attorney is bringing suit against an airline for a supposedly racist remark made by a flight attendant. This airline is well known for its bright chatter and humorous greetings. It seems that the attendant, in order to get the passengers to move along a little faster, over the intercom, made a play of words from an old nursery rhyme. What she said was,
" Eenie Meenie, miney mo,
Find your seats and then we'll go!"

I don't know how many of you are aware that years ago, the actual rhyme went
"Eenie Meenie Miney Mo
Catch a nigger by his toe
.......If he hollers let him go."
Of course it's a disgusting poem and I had thought it was out of print for many years, but I fail to see how anyone can take offense at the way the attendant recited it. I doubt if she even knew there was a different interpretation.

But a lawyer has brought suit against the airline, on behalf of an African-American couple who were on that flight. To me this seems ridiculous, but perhaps you don't see it that way. Doesn't intent mean anything?

What do you think?

Lorrie

That rhyme I think has been outlawed here. I have not heard it for about 45 years. It must have been considered offensive here for it to have been outlawed. They also stopped production on gollywogs when Nicky was little. Nicky actually loved her gollywog it was her bedtime doll and she took it everywhere. However we now have dolls which are identical but obviously Pakeha (white) chinese or Maori. I asked Brooke which one she wanted and she chose a Pakeha doll. I noticed a little Maori girl was choosing a Maori doll. These dolls are like real babies, they have all the bits but are definately different ethnic groups. I think its rather nice to have the different dolls.

I can't really comment on the rhyme as its not used here but now in the society I live in it would not really be acceptable.

Carolyn

Odd - I never heard the eenie meenie thing with the racist part left in. - it was always "catch a piggy by the toe." Born and raised in San Francisco, which may explain things, although I think even liberal cities like mine have a lot of racism left.

Lorrie and Ann - I have only been lurking, but you've done a wonderful job with this discussion.

I taught my kids:

Eeny meeny miny mo Catch a rabbit by the toe

So far the PETA people have left me alone.

And don't forget Little Black Sambo which my mother used to read to us. I just loved the part where she would say, "Epanimondis, you aint got the brains you wuz born with; you never had the brains you wuz born with; and you aint never goin to have the brains you wuz born with!!!" We'd use that whenever one of us goofed.

What about Brer Rabbit and the Tarbaby?

How I loved those stories as a small child and I never ever thought they were wrong. Could they not rewrite them? I also remember little Black Sambo and adored him too!

My grandaughter is now enjoying the edited Enid Blyton books which have made a resurrgence recently.

Carolyn

Well, this has been a really warm and stretching experience for me. I still can't believe that I am speaking with people from all over the globe about one book and one author.
A few comments: My impression of this book left me with much admiration for the author as I see his writing as filled with humility while he is offering a way for all of us to understand the problem of being ethnically or color challenged. Its just wonderful and I intend to get a Gathering of Old Men next.
Betty and SarahT, so glad you were both here, sometimes lurking and sometimes commenting. Betty, I am the one who said "murder is murder, isn't it?" and I stand by that statement. How each murder is ajudicated is another bone to pick.
kiwi and Bobbiecee, are you aware that New Zealand and Australia has many SeniorNet Learning Centers? They are easy enough to find, right here on the web, just do a "google"!
Hats, I certainly hope you will join us in more discussions.
Jeanlock, I too remember loving Sambo and still think the premise of the tiger's racing around the tree and turning into butter for Sambo's pancakes needs to be used in another story. As for "Eennie meenie minie mo", we always used the phrase, "Catch a tiger by the toe" so I can't get too upset when its used.

I hope you all have enjoyed this time we have spent together and will come into Books soon to join another discussion. Thanks for your super leadership, Ms Lorrie! We must do this again sometime!! Its been grand fun!

No, Anne, I was not aware there were SN learning centres here. We do have U3A here, 5 different centres, plus U3A in many smaller cities and towns.

Bobbie

Ah but once you can use a PC you don't need the learning centre and the website here is nothing like this one! Why do you think I am in here enjoying myself so much!

Carolyn

Well said, Ann!

When i first started reading this book, I was prepared to find another novel about racial injustice in the South during the late 40's, but I was immediately surprised at the way Gaines grabbed my attention and kept it all through the book. Yes, it is another book on racial injustice, but this man writes it in such a compelling and compassionate way, without histrionics, and leaves me shaken after reading certain passages.

I admired both Grant's aunt and Miss Emma for their stalwart stubborness, I was irritated with Grant at the beginning at his cynical attitude toward his fate, I almost wept with Jefferson as I read through his journal, and the last chapters on his execution were harrowing, to say the least. But I am left here with a feeling that this book is a classic, and will be required reading for students and others for some time, hopefully.

All of you wonderful posters were a delight to "hobnob" with. I have learned many things about other countries, and feel as though I have made many new friends. Bless you all, and I do hope to see you in other book discussions here on Books and Literature on SeniorNet. Alf and I will be setting sail for a month-long sea voyage in May, when we discuss that old favorite of so many of us, "Moby Dick." Please come and join us in that adventure! It will be fun! Drop a post here in the proposed title, and let us know you're interested.

MOBY DICK

Lorrie