I read this one last month. She is even more outrageous that in the first one. What a blast. Yet, I love her more, now. She is seeming more vulnerable, perhaps. Can't wait to "discuss" it.

Jackie, you've convinced me. I'm on my way to the bookstore.

Jackie and Jo, what fun! Must get up some more Tilling illustrations!

Ginny

When we go to London next year, can we see Olga's house? Would love to stand there and look acorss the square, imagining Lucia looking back.

YES!! Benson himself lived in Brompton Square!! WE will have to research the heck out of it to find it, but we can do it!!

Ginny

I have just discovered author, Francine Rivers, a writer of Christian ficton and finished her novel Redeeming Love which I thoroughly enjoyed and recommend. (My husband thought it dull.)

I will now look for Lucia in London.

Penny!! Welcome, welcome!! We are delighted to see you here and hope you'll look around and stay a long time!

If you like "Jeeves and Wooster" type of books, you'll love this comedy on Edwardian England.

We look forward to your joining us!

Ginny

25 Brompton Square! - According to my copy of Literary London Walks.

Isn't that where Olga lived? Or, in this book, Lucia herself? Must see.

Ginny

Ooooooh-Lucia in London! Sounds great! Now, to track it down at the library. Carol Jones

I'll try to find it too, Ginny.

Girls, look for Make Way for Lucia which contains ALL the Lucia novels of which this one is the second. It's the only volume of Lucia I've found in both our libraries.

Oh great, I don't think you will be sorry, it's different, it's light, it's something you ought not to miss. I'm going to try to get the heading of the old discussion as a clickble here or something so all that background material is available. I MUST go up to the barn and find the town model of Rye as our illustration. I hope you love it. I do, this is one time I'm not holding back, but also it's not to everyone's taste, it's an Edwardian Drawing Room comedy.

Ginny

Face it, Ginny! These are Edwardian sitcoms! Speaking of which, WHERE are the tapes????

You're probably starting to realize, Ginny, that I'll read just about anything!

Me, too, Sarah, but I'd not have wanted to have missed these for the world. Am quite the Benson enthusiast, but am certainly not alone, there are two major societies just devoted to him. He's stil got "friends in high places," hahahahaah.

But if you hate it say so too, room for all opinions!!

Jeryn, that's certainly a good question! I have no idea, we may want to start them circulating again.

Sarah, have you seen the tapes??

Ginny

Tapes?

The video tapes of the "Mapp and Lucia" series. They ran on PBS quite a few years ago, starred Nigel Hawthorne of "The Madness of King George" and Prunella Scales of "Fawlty Towers."

They start with Book IV of the series and you either love em or hate em, there's no inbetween.

We were passing them around. I wonder where they all are!

Ginny

I've owned MAKE WAY FOR LUCIA for years and never gotten around to reading it. I guess that I'll be pulling it down from the shelf and dusting it off so I can join you all. School is almost out, exams next week, so I'll finally have some time to enjoy reading for pleasure. I'm trying to keep up with THE POISONWOOD BIBLE discussion also and after next week I'll be more able to read, read, read.

YAY, Prissy, we're starting with Book II here, Lucia in London, but you don't have to read Book I first, in fact, I think it's better to start with Book II.

Have YOU seen the tapes?

Ginny

Ginny, Never knew there were tapes. I'll look at my public library, they have a lot of past series from PBS and A&E. Worth a try!!

Some information about the tapes--- www.amazon.com has two boxed sets containing 5 episodes each, MAPP&LUCIA and MAPP&LUCIA II,for $50.96 each. Too high for me right now, I'm just a broke college student, but thought I'd post the info for anyone interested.

Prissy, thanks, that was the very one we were passing out amongst ourselves and I hope to corral it soon! I just lent the second set to a friend, they are quite special and she's recovering and needs a laugh!

Ginny

Now in the heading the clickable says click on Broadway to see the photo gallery of Bensoniana, and it's quite nice, actually. Broadway was "Risholme," where Lucia is living when the book opens. And Brompton Square, in London, which she....well, you'll see, was also one of the homes of EF Benson, I believe, will need to do much research. Both sites, both the Benson Society and the Tilling Society are still down. All I can think of is that we burned them both out the last time, they are British and likely to cost a good bit, never fear, we can find the information again. Boy if I ever DO get another one I will make an html page out of it in a flash!

Ginny

"Any news?" That's the way people in the small village of Riseholme (widely thought to be Broadway in England) greet each other.

We've got lots of news here which may interest you, but first let's take stock and see how many we are!

A warm welcome to you all as we begin Lucia in London the second of a series of six books (with two sequels following that by another author) which take a humorous look at all of us and our human foibles through the medium of small town English life.

Apparently you either love Lucia or hate her, there doesn't seem to be any in between, which camp do you find yourself in this morning?

If you've not read the first book, you're starting at one of the best ones, and I do have the video tapes of the later series on their way back to me so you can sign up and view them at your leisure, you really don't want to miss them.

This morning we find Lucia about to take on London itself, with its duchesses and aristocrats, and higher society. CAN a small town girl keep UP with these stellar lights? Will she turn her back on her small home town? IS she a "climber?" And IS Benson saying something in these books?

What do you think?

Pull up a chair, we're in no hurry here, and let's look at the first 100 pages together this week.

If this is your first Lucia, what do you think?

Off to find Brompton illustrations: Benson kept a home there himself.

Ginny

Couldn't find Lucia at the library so I'll just lurk!

Hi Ginny! I read this particular Lucia last winter but I'll try to remember [book went back to the library] as best I can. I'm a fan of Lucia! At first, I didn't like her but as I read on through the books, I found some grudging respect for her courage and nerve [oh especially the nerve!] even though if she were a live person I'd probably avoid her like the plague! Hahaha!

Hey, I never did get the tapes! Are they going to go the rounds again? Put me top of the list!

Just started the book today -- obsessive-compulsive, I guess. If the date is the 15th, that's when I start! Partly because I'm reading something else and trying to finish before next discussion starts. I love Georgie, don't really know why. Maybe it's his loyalty, in spite of the flaws he perceives in his friends. He is funny, frivolous, sweet, not quite as self-absorbed as his dear friend.

GREAT!! JERYN, JO!! SARAH!! What a joy to see you here, I've begun again, too, and will try to get stuff in here, Jeryn, that we can refer to.

And YES, the tapes begin again, and Jeryn will be at the top of the list, putting up now. It's not something you should miss, whether or not you like Lucia.

Me, too, Jo, have just started to reread, but in this book's case, it's an easy 100 pages, will have more tomorrow, couldn't FIND the thing last night.

I would hesitate to say how many times I have read this book, the entire series, don't want to put anybody off by revealing how MUCH of an enthusiast I am. I don't know what attracts me to it: Benson is certainly droll, certainly subtle, certainly a master of language. Every little twitch stops you in your tracks.

This, by the way, is the perfect travel book, to take with you on a trip. It's light, it's funny, and it creates the feeling of "home," when you read it, no matter how strange or unpleasant your surroundings.

In the first book Benson says of Georgie, that contrary to what might be expected, Georgie was quite tall. I must confess I don't think of him as tall, do you?? I don't know why not. I also must confess that I think Benson was painting on a wider pallette than most people think: we have Lucias and Georgies and definitely Mapps right here on SeniorNet: it's an allegory, in a way. You know Agatha Christie always said you could find an example of every type of human in one small English village and I think that's what Benson is trying to achieve: something of each of us in these characters.

It interested me in the first discussion that those who HATED Lucia were themeselves very independent people, who would not tolerate her for a moment. Yet I don't think Benson intends for us to admire her? And I KNOW he thought Mapp a "monster," but nobody else seems to, myself included? But more on that later, too.

Anyway back tomorrow with more, so glad you're here!

Ginny

Lucia was so fortunate to find an opportunity to 'take-over' London. Her antics and schemes make for great reading... Like Jeryn... what nerve!

If the tapes go around again, I'd like to see them. Our VCR quit before I finished watching.

Hi, my first time here. I just bought the book and have started to read. Love it. I lived in England for three years and feel right at home in the book. I know I'll get hooked. Looking forward to all that Lucia does. I love Georgie, in fact, I love the little town. What a pleasure to read.

Forgot, tell me about these tapes and how you get them. Are they for sale or rent.

Josie, how marvelous to see you here, you are most welcome!!

We will want your opinions on everything, since you lived in England three years, and I'm so glad you are already enjoying the books!

We're sharing these tapes, tho you might find them in a library; they are certainly for sale, but these are of exceptional quality and of no charge, so if you like, I'll put you on the list: you'll love them.

The town in the tapes is Rye, have you been there?

Take a moment to look over the photo gallery and Benson bio, too. Is this your first Benson??

So glad you're with us!

Ginny

hahahaha, Just spent a delightful evening last night reading self to sleep with Lucia, She Who Never Pales. Georgie is SUCH a hoot.

This time around several things strike me, that didn't before. For one thing the language is as fresh as today, isn't it? Would you have known, except for some strange appellations like "listening-in apparatus" that this was written so long ago, just from the language?

What is a gimlet eye and how is that pronounced? Jim Let?

When I think of Brompton, I think of Brompton Oratory and I don't even know what that IS so I will have a great day of research ahead. Benson himself knew the neighborhood: he had a house there, going to try to find the address of same.

But now, in the late 20's the age of 83 was pretty advanced in age? But not now, we wouldn't consider that very decrepit at all. Wonder what age Aunt Amy would have to be NOW for it to be a parallel thing.

Don't you love the droll humor of the thing? The way they see right through each other? Wonder why Lucia keeps on having airs?

Wicked of Benson to introduce Olga the Prima Donna again in London and right across the street, too. You KNOW poor Lucia is going to get her comeuppance.

"Peppino," by the way, is NOT explained as that's her little Italian way for Philip, her husband's name. HER name is Emmeline but she's called or calls herself "Lucia" as her married surname is Lucas so it's a la Lucas. Pretentious, in other words.

What do you think about their "busy" lives. Do you think they are pitiful or do you understand their need to be always interested in something?

And now at the end of this section we have Abfou, Planchette, Ouija, and the Museum. Can't you just SEE the fun coming??

An excerpt from Georgie's attempts to console the "grieving" Lucia, secretly exulting in her inherited windfall:

"Georgie held her hand a moment longer than was usual, and gave it a little extra pressure for the conveyance of sympathy. Lucia, to acknowledge that, pressed a little more, and Georgie tightened his grip again to show that he understood, until their respective fingernails grew white with the conveyance and reception of sympathy. It was rather agonizing, because a bit of skin on his little finger had got caught between two of the rings on his third finger, and he was glad when they quite understood each other."

hahahahaha

Ginny

Oh and speaking of how reading seems to expand all horizons: just yesterday in the NY Times somebody or other is doing all the master works of music and there was a photograph of Cortot!! I had to laugh. As bold as brass, he WAS a real person and a pianist, too!

I've actually learned a good bit from the Lucia books!

Ginny

Main Entry: gim·let-eyed Pronunciation: -'Id Function: adjective Date: 1752 : SHARP-SIGHTED

www.m-w.com

That IS a hoot, Ginny, with the handholding and the ringpinching. I laughed right out loud all through these books. What tickles me to pieces about Georgie is his needlework and dusting his bibelots. He's just precious; he is!

Isn't he, Jeryn, don't you wish you knew one? I wish I HAD a Georgie as he's loyal to a fault unless unduly pressed.

Pat, how is the JIM pronounced: Jim or gim? Sharp eyed? I thought it meant kinda shiny eyed for some reason! Glittering, I thought, obviously incorrectly.

One thing I do like about Benson is that you know instantly what he's getting at, you've been there. The hand pressing!

Ginny

Ginny - you have me convinced - I'm going to HAVE to find this book. If you love it this much, it's clearly worth a try!

Sarah, some very fine people whom I love dearly hated it, so I despair of....I wish I had another copy of this one! THAT'S what we should do...mail around copies!@

I did a search on Bibliofind but didn't find a one!

Ginny

Hi. I just started Lucia and I keep hoping I'll start to like her although I think I warmed to her when she made a curtsey to the telephone. Now I think that's class. I sort of like Daisy Quantock. Her gardening and mine sound similar. Her feats with the ouji board and Abfou are something else.

If anyone is having difficulty finding their very own copy of any of the Lucia books---try Powell's ---click on more search options, type in E.F.Benson, and you'll find several copies available of some of the books. Powell's Books is a used books bookstore and a wonderful source for older, previously read, and out of print books of any genre. Hope this helps someone.

Dodie, you HAVE to see the tapes! The actress who plays Lucia, Geraldine McEwan is something else! When the series aired on PBS, I was passing thru and got caught up in the CAMP! She was SO annoying, SO awful, I couldn't believe my eyes, was firmly in Mapp's court!

But it has a strange "growing on you" effect. It's almost a cult thing, now.

Curtseying to the telephone, yes, wasn't that rich!

hahahahhaaa

Ginny

Dodie, I think you are AHEAD of us, we're only up to page 100~ She's just LEFT town! And they have had their first visit from Abfou.

They're "on the boil," that's for sure.

I like Daisy, too, that's my name, in fact, in the Benson List Serve, they all take the name of a character.

Ginny

Prissy, thanks!!! I hope some of us who want the experience can find the books there, they are rare, that's for sure!

Powells sure does have Lucia in London!! And lots more, too! Have put it in the heading. Thanks so much.

Dodie, hahahha, yes her gardening is much like mine, too, don't you LOVE how they interpret Abfou's "messages?" hahahahahaaha I loved how Daisy's husband, Robert, had the job of explaining the word "lazy" which Daisy had used to fire the gardener when it was necessary to hire him again! hahahahahahaa

Found Lucia In London on Amazon.com. They have it in stock and shop in 24 hours. I think it was 9.58 or something close to that. Great war between Amazon and Barnes and Noble 50% off on all best sellers, paperback and hardback. Really hard to pass up. Got Belva Plains new book Legacy Of Silence for 3.99. Not a bad deal.

TTYL Judy

Judy, is that new and in stock?? Thanks for that information!

Ginny

Ginny ' Yes thats new and shipping in 24 to 48 hours

Judy

Found Lucia in London at Barnes and Nobles. Am beginning to dislike Lucia as I think she thinks only of herself but at the same time, she really may be unsure of herself and that's why she uses people. Would love to see the tapes but no one has told me where to get them.

Josie, we're mailing our copies around to share? I've put up your name on our list and Jackie is mailing them to me as we speak. So on they'll go and you'll....well, we'll just see how you like them!

I had to read ahead last night as I needed a laugh, and Benson is always there for you!

Ginny

Apologies in advnce if someone has alreay sugested this, but does Georgie seem like Benson himself, at times? A way of getting his own viewpoint of Lucia establised, a continuing eye on her and the other characters that enables Benson to simultaneously characterize them and love them in the midst of their follies?

No, I don't think anybody said that, and I think that's a great thought!! He DOES watch them, doesn't he? I can't stop reading, am well into the next 100 pages for Sunday and find it a total HOOT that he hates Stephen Meriall on sight because he LOOKS just like Georgie!! hahahahahahah

He even cuts down those Oxford Trousers. I saw a photo of Oxford Trousers once and Robert's honpipe is not too far off, they look exactly like sailors' wide leg trousers, bell bottoms!

Ginny

How many times through history has the "bell bottom trouser" been fashionable, I wonder! Benson's descriptions of poor Georgie in his wonderful trousers just cracked me up! Is this character what we would call a bit of a popinjay? Is that the right word? For a man excessively devoted to his haberdashery?!?

Jeryn, I think it's the perfect word! I still laugh at the recollection of how Georgie was "busy indoors" on the days when he was adjusting his toupe' (sp?) and doing his fingernails in Queen Lucia. The image of his standing around, waiting for the reaction to those trouseres is funny! He was so afraid of that reaction, but he absolutetly had to have one! Much worse to have his new fashion ignored!

Well, boy, here we are in the second week! When I went to bed Saturday night I thought, boy o boy you better get cracking because you're supposed to be to page 200 tomorrow! And I looked and I was on page 198, so it wasn't much of a stretch!

WELL, what excitements. Our Lucia is climbing like a monkey in society and snubbing her old friends right and left. Laughing at the museum and it's treasures.

Why do you suppose Benson put OLGA in the same town with the Princess who reverently looked at Aunt Charlotte's mitttens?

I think Benson here is trying to show who the REAL people are, as opposed to the poseurs? Does anybody know what a "tithe barn " is?? It's mentioned on page 104, and is the site of the museum.

Samian ware. Do you all know what that is? I was so proud of myself as I've probably told the entire world, on a visit to one of Hadrian's forts along Hadrian's wall in Cumbria, England to SEE a case of Samian ware and to exclaim in a know it all manner (SAMIAN WARE!!)

Boy was everybody impressed!! Little did ANYBODY know I picked THAT one up right out of the pages of Mr. Benson.

Did you LOVE Abfou's misspelling of "committee?" How strange? that Daisy didn't know how to spell it, either? ahhahahahahaah Have YOU ever "weedjed?"

What is this rapping of the table when the Committee meets? Is that a British custom?? Instead of raising your hand you knock on the table?

And of course, on page 202, we have the formation of the Luciaphil Society, in which the people who HAVE what Lucia wants, instead of being threatened by her, join in amusement and admiration of her.

Except for Aggie Sandemann who is irritated at her co-opting of so many of her guests.

Now is this Luciaphil Society quite...well....is it nice?

And on page 203, Benson mentions the Divorce Courts. The author of London for the Independent Traveler says that a visit to the Central Criminal Courts of London (The Old Bailey) is her absolute favorite thing to do in London. The robes, the barristers in their wigs, the formality and presentation. She says "I found it irresistible and almost impossible to leave...On opening day the judges still carry posies to court to ward off fever, and herbs are strewn around the room to cover the terrible smell from the infamous Newgate prison, once located on the site of the "old" Old Bailey...I defy you to stay only five minutes."

Great stuff, huh? Going to look for Samian Ware, what are YOUR thoughts on this section?

Ginny

Now why do I feel like I'm talking to myself here? Anybody home??

How would you characterize Benson's style of writing? Does it appeal or not??

Having a TERRIBLE time finding illus of Samian Ware, not as common as you might think!

But did find to my shock a photo of what the Faraglione really is!! Remember the Countess?? The Italian Countess in the videos? You won't believe what Faraglione REALLY is??

Benson was a whole lot more educated, traveled and informed than we readers in the 1990's could ever dream of. The entire books are brimming with droll references to things that we would normally have no clue over.

So what was the Countess Faraglione??

Ginny

I just finished the book and did enjoy it. Will have to read something else by this author. Not musch to say about it tho.

Ginny, I'm behind in the reading... sorry! I'm reading the part where Georgie and Daisy and the rest are up in arms over Lucia's London "splash." Very enjoyable, realizing that they really miss her and resent that she is sooooo adaptable! Georgie suddenly finds his life that normally pleased him now lacks inspiration. Benson seems to be saying that Lucia, with all her "push," gives spice to the lives of the more reticent, less resouceful souls.

Jo: that's a good point, don't hurry, Benson should not be hurried. Yes, I do think you are right, without her they are BUSY yet the business seems to lack something to validate it, and for some reason she does that. I guess that's what leaders are for, to validate or else why would we need them at all?

Josie: do you like Benson's style of writing or did it bore or what did you think of it and the characters he invented??

Ginny

Ok Ginny - I'm going to have to track this book down!!!

When I first started the very first Lucia book, I found the style somewhat stilted and not really to my taste. But I persevered as I hate to not finish a book once started, and found as I moved along that it fit this author's subject matter to a "T"! Then when I was finishing the very last book of the six, I hated to see them end!

Nobody knows who or what Faraglione is!! (sing song) Nobody knows what or who Faraglione is! hahahahhahahaha Any guesses??

Sarah, yes, start with this one, B&N has it now. Watch the tapes, you really will be sorry if you miss the tapes, Jackie is going to send them to Jeryn!

Jeryn, have you tried the two Tom Holt sequels? I think they are splendid, myself. I can't think of an orange without laughing. Holt's mother is Hazel Holt, the mystery writer and he writes Sci Fi. But his two sequels were marvelous, and perfectly done, I thought. Not all critics agree, tho.

Ginny

Tom Holt is Hazel Holt's son? Wow, I'm going to have to look him up. She writes lovely little cozies.

Thanks for the tip, Ginny; I will add Tom Holt to my list of Books to Read Someday! As for Faraglione; my Italian dictionary says cliff? What's so funny?

In addition to Faraglione, would someone elaborate on planchette? I assume some kind of automatic writing is going on (Daisy and Georgie), but I had never heard of this device before ... some kind of pencil or pen? Is Daisy pusing it to reflect what is really on her mind about Lucia's London success?

Ginny, I did like Benson's style but I'm the type who will have to read some other books by him and get into it. I need to get to know his characters and look forward to another book. Any suggestions.

The Board, I remember as a child having a weggie board, can't spell, and thought it could tell the future..Lots of fun. We moved it ourselves and it was great fun.

Josie

Off the coast of San Francisco are the Farallone islands - very laden with cliffs.

I think it's spelled Ouija but pronounced weegee. Go figure.

Thanks Sarah, I remember now.

Josie

We had a Ouija when we were kids. But my mother said it was the devil talking, so we kept it hid out in the playhouse... My brother could get it to say all sorts of things that my sister and I were supposed to do for him.. I think I was about 9 before I figured out he was really giving us the run around.

And Daisy seems to have that same ability.

planchette is a not only a planetable used in the investigation of psychic phenomena but because of the pronunciation it could refer to planchet. Planchet is a piece of metal ready to receive an impression or a blank coin and planche is a plank. So planchette could be a way of saying all sorts of things when used in dry humor.

BARBARA! Thank you so much for that, I never even questioned "planchette," what a HOOT! I just thought it was another word for Ouija, or "weege," as Olga says. And here you have cast an entire new light on things!!

You know, not so long ago, people studied the classics and mythology SO THAT when they read a work of literature, they would know the references and feel right at home with the author. Something must have changed in Western literature because now a reference to the classics is rare, indeed, and usually explained a la Frances Mayes.

Who forces hers, I think.

I think the reason Benson never pales for me is that his ENTIRE work IS a reference, and it's like a puzzle: as many times as I've read these books I didn't know planchette, the blank coin, and there's Benson again, laughing up his sleeve. It's like a treasure box but you need a key, that's why there are two very serious societies devoted and I mean devoted to his works.

Now we've all done Ouija? or however you spell it? You have this funny looking board and there's a little disk on it and you don't LOOK at it but you have to LOOK at it, you each put on your fingertips and you DON'T push, and it spells out words by pointing to letters, but you don't look. So that's Weedj.

Now this planchette, apparently, you write with a pencil? Or do you? Perhaps Daisy is writing down what the Ouija spelled? If you never looked at the board you wouldn't know what it spelled. I can remember not looking till "it" stopped and then trying to interpret what it had said. hahahahaah Great fun. I think Benson captures it perfectly in that Abfou can't spell committee any better than Daisy does. Love it.

Josie, as a true enthusiast, I'd recommend you first watch the videos, read Mapp & Lucia, finish the series including the Holt books and then read the first one. Benson also wrote a lot of ghost stories and non fiction including some quite scholarly biographies. Please refer, all, to the biographical info in the heading as well as some of the photos for more Bensoniana.

In the video series as well as the later books, the Contessa di Faraglione gives Lucia quite a challenge with her poor Italian, in fact, it's hilarious. I was startled in reading the current issue of "Italia " (a magazine half in Italian and half in English: sort of a Loeb's modern Italian idea) to find this photo!!!

And Sarah: how clever you are! There MUST be a connection, because look at this!! The Coast of Capri with the Faraglioni in the back

Is this another of Benson's jokes? That wouldn't be much to be a Count of, would it? hahahahahahahahaa Also if you notice in the videos, Quaint Irene lives in "Taormina," a city on Sicily: Greek Theater at Taormina

I like the richness of Benson's layers. Those who dismiss Benson as light and meaningless are not, apparently, aware of what he's really saying. Their loss.

Tomorrow: the last section of the book. I find myself hating to put it down again. hahahahahahaaa

Still loking for Brompton Square on the maps. Benson lived in Brompton, too, so I know it's there, I just don't know where. Ginny

I do notice in the above post that some of my italics "Italia" and some of my apostrophes it's have been left out. That's a very good predecessor of a crash. If you make a post and you want it, save it.

Ginny

Ginny - beautiful shot of Capri. Our Farallones are farther off the coast, visible only on a very clear day. When my husband was a teenager he worked on the fishing boats and they went out there - they are off limits to all but a few humans and owned entirely by sea critters!

I've felt right along that Benson really loved Lucia, despite her weaknesses, but he paints a less attractive picture of her in some of these episodes. She really "kicked the ladder" out from under herself when she revisted Riseholme with her London friends and laughed at the Museum. She knows it afterward, bur she's still Lucia. Georgie's loyalty is really tested, and he seems quite exasperated with her.
One of my favorite scenes is the one where she wheedles her way into Olga's party the night of the opera, sort of tiptoe-slithering her way in physically the way she does figuratively with all the uppercrust she encounters there and other places in London.
What are Benson's own views of the "Post Cubists"? Is he making a statement about the idle Avante-Garde, the dilitantes who take up anything new to fill their time with no real understanding of art of any kind? He seems to dislike this group, and Lucia along with them when she becomes involved.

Every now & then I check this site. Delighted to find these books included in the chat. Read them all eons ago and enjoyed so much merriment over them. I particularly still remember the bedrooms being named after Shakespeare's plays; one of them being "Much Ado About Nothing". What a lovely giggle.

Dear Mary Page, A grand Tilling Welcome to you!!

This is the second of our Lucia discussions, the first one is in the Archives, and how right you are, we love them, too.

We're a small yet dedicated band of enthusiasts who have big plans a la Benson, see our England 2000 folder!

Yes, the rooms named for Shakespeare's plays, hahahahahha and the garden with Perdita's flowers! hahahahahah ONLY those grown in her garden.

And "saluting" the moon. I mean, really.

Anyway, do stay a while!!

Jo: what interesting points! Now that you mention it, I do sense an ambiance here on Benson's part about Lucia. Nemesis looked at her pride and decided to smash her flat. Could "Nemesis" be Benson and his feeling that she had gone too far? What would you say IS his stance on her?

I don't know Benson's opinion of the Post Cubists but I have a feeling it's not very positive. IS there such a movement?? hahahahahaha

Now that planchette? I was reading last night and see that Georgie has to hurry to thrust a paper UNDER planchette or it writes right off the paper. I remember this!! Somewhere in the long forgotten past I remember this. A pencil or something attached to something and it wrote (well IT didn't write, you and somebody else, having cleared your mind and concentrated fully: hahahahahahah how I laughed at Benson's description there.......didn't PUSH it!)

Sarah, yes, you MUST really, if nothing else, look at the videos. You'll be sorry if you don't.

So here Benson is with Lucia and his next book introduces her Nemesis in the flesh, Mapp. And then he brings them together, Mapp & Lucia. And then sparks fly.

JO: and oh yes the night of the party, am I the only one aghast at the hours they keep? The going down to dinner at MIDNIGHT?? WHO can eat dinner at midnight??

Just read the stuffed Pug episode last night. hahahahahahaha

This is good, JO: "Is he making a statement about the idle Avante-Garde, the dilitantes who take up anything new to fill their time with no real understanding of art of any kind? "

Now, that's really interesting as we all know Benson himself moved in these circles? And so is he skewering himself and his own circles? I note that artists as a whole seem a bit daft in Benson's books: remember Sophie Allingsby (the wierd bright thing) who was so serious about art? and how about Quaint Irene (pronounced in the proper way: Irenie)....He does seem to be making a statement, doesn't he?

I bet you that every single person there, the cartoonist et. al, is or was a parody of a real person.

You might almost say Fred here is wicked? I KNOW that he considered Mapp a "monster" when he first wrote of her but she became delightful. So I don't know what that says: whether or not Benson himself was such a kindly nature that it transcended even what HE was trying to do?

Check out the chair in the photos above? Apparently a wicked sense of humor, too? Definitely believed in ghosts.

Ginny: hate to see it end again.

Here are two Benson sites which you may find of interest, the first is one put up on Geocities and mainatined by Abner Tatnall of the Benson List Serve, it has some good information. The second is an example of the List Serve Rampant, I guess, not only do they take names of the characters on the list but they, as you can see, at the annual Tilling Society Meeting, dress up in costume if they like. Not all Tilliing Society members dress up, in fact, if you look at the photos in the heading here of the procession to the grave site, you can see modern forms of dress.

Anyway, de gustibus, here are two more Benson sites:

Benson Home Page on Geocities and

Scenes of Tilling (not very clear) and some Society Members en masque

Ginny

Ginny, I doubt there are any "Post Cubists," but I believe he had real people in mind! I can eat supper at midnight, if I sleep until ten or eleven that same day (never do, actually!) I looked at all the pictures, some of which I've seen before, and conclude that the actors loved bringing Lucia, her cohorts and Riseholme to life. I'm not sure yet how Benson actually feels about Lucia; I have a bit more of the book to read.

Well, I still think he loves her. She triumphs over everthing, including her own folly, shows great concern for Peppino, although Benson leaves us uncertain as to whether she is more concerned about her role and status in Riseholme or Peppino's health and happiness. She seems to bring equal measures of joy and aggravation (Daisy!) when she returns. She has that certain something the author values -- the ability to keep things "in a boil." He loves her because she has boundless energy for keeping things stirred up coupled with her imagination; both are gifts which endear her to observers in London as well as the Riseholmites.

Hi Ginny, Just found your discussion group. I haven't read Benson's books but have enjoyed the discussions. Guess what, I was on Hadrian's Wall in October. You all have me interested. It's off to the book store tomorrow

Clare!! No, no, Hadrian's WALL? WHERE, exactly? Vindolanda? Housesteads? WHERE??

Tell all. Anybody want to see my photos of same??

You know we could read Hadrian's memoirs, too.

Clare, you MUST view those videotapes!

I love Benson, to me he's as fresh as springtime. I agree with JO: I think he loves her, too. He's the first and original Luciaphil! Now Mapp is another matter. We must read on!!

Ginny

Oh what fun!!! I am up to page 150 or thereabouts, not wanting to read any posts beyond this point...but will empty a bucket of goodies which may illuminate until I catch up! If I repeat somethings you have already discussed, blame my tardiness!

First, this is a veeery interesting list of names...scan all the way down and you will find two surprises re Daisy and Faralione:Benson List of Characters

On Ouija boards and planchettes, the little plastic piece you hold in your hand and move about the board:
Ouija Boards
Scroll through for illustration and description of Ouija game

Here's a photo of the red Roman pottery, Samian ware

And I am quite certain that Georgie's pants looked like one of these...which? Oxford Pants

Can't wait to finish and join you all - you are so much fun - or you wouldn't be here at all!

WOW!!! Our Dazzling Joan Pearson has done it again!!!

Wow~!

I did post a photo of Faraglione, our Joan, are you waiting to see it? Don't see it on the list of characters. Yes, I am Daisy but...well....that's a long story.

OH the SAMIAN WARE, the SAMIAN WARE, what a marvelous photo!! Thanks SO much, how marvelous! One of the best I've seen, how DO you do that??

AND the Oxford pants with their 2 or 3" waist! and their 22" cuff!! Wasn't that a woman's style here recently? And YOURS now for only $500!!!

I think the slacks only were $100. What a fascinating page, how DO you do it??

Now, on the Ouija, I read that, and am so glad to find out what PLANCHETTE really IS, really liked the board recreated, too, but now am wondering about the pencil and the writing? Remember Georgie had to quickly move the paper UNDER the pencil? I'm thinking this is automatic writing and Benson here combined it, as the perfectly clear descrpition of Planchette and the Ouija board does NOT mention a pencil writing quickly??

Going to put those in the heading!

Thanks so much,

Ginny

I just checked out the pants and I can't see why men are always laughing at women's fashions

I found the book - and at my local branch library too. It's the complete set of all the Lucia books - quite a tome. I'll get started right away!

Joan How wonderful of you to find so much for us. I love it!

Ok, did you read this in your site on Oxford pants: "In 1925 the era of the baggy pants dawned. This fashion would influence mens wear for three decades. Oxford bags were first worn by Oxford undergraduates, eager to circumvent the University’s prohibition on knickers. The style originated when knickers were banned in the classroom. As the bags measured anywhere from twenty-two inches to forty inches around the bottoms, they could easily be slipped on over the forbidden knickers.

John Wanamaker introduced Oxford bags to the American public in the spring of 1925, although Ivy League students visiting Oxford in 1924 had already adopted the style. The trousers were originally made of flannel and appeared in shades of biscuit, silver gray, fawn, lovat, blue gray, and pearl gray."

Ok, my wonderment - the photos seem to show Zoot suits, as I remember, popular just before and during WWII - well, I found and did purchase a set of the Lucia and Mapp video tapes - and for those that have seen them, do your remember the scene where they all ceremoniously march into Lucia's living room in her rented house in Tilling to remove the 'Blumenflet'. In that scene, Georgie wears these very loose, fawn colored, wide legged pants that easily look as if you could slip them on over a set of knickerbockers. I wonder if they are the Oxfords - what do you think?

That's it or rather those are the Oxfords - My copy of A History of Fashion by J. Anderson Black and Madge Garland not only speaks to 'Oxford bags' but illustrates with a photo of London's male models.

"The girls dressed in these soft, limp dresses had a new scene in which to display them. One of the most striking phenomena of the post-war life was the craze for dancing: the original Dixieland Jazz Band drew all London to the Hammersmith Palais de Danse: the dansants took place every afternoon in most of the big hotels and nightclubs where the men returning from the army and waiting for jobs spent much of their time.Their only rivals were the gigolos-usually dark young men whith a South American background, whose best assets were their thorough knowledge of the tango, their sleek black hair and immaculate costume of tails and well-pressed trousers. This was the last sartorial flicker of the idle man-about-town who was about to be superseded by a figure conspicuous for his casual appearance. The most important item of the new style was the width of the grey flannel trousers, or 'Oxford bags' as these garments were called since they had been launched by some under-graduates of that university. Some were so wide that a cartoonist showed a young man and a girl crossing a muddy street, the girl in her comparatively short skirts quite unconcerned but the young man holding up his over-long, too-wide trousers."

The photo shows a gentleman in a stripped, dark colored dressing gown, very long with PJ's peeking from the bottom; Another in navy blazer, open neck white collared shirt, white trousers and straw hat (Georgie all over in Folkestone only Georgie wore a conservative collared shirt and tie); another in long full limp knickers, tweed jacket, tatersall shirt and a tie with a soft cap (rather like Major Benjy's haberdashery) and finally a light colored wide legged Oxford bag with a large checked jacket, white shirt and tie. And yes, the Oxfords look like the pants Georgie wore when striding into the living room to help Lucia move the 'Blumenfelt' said with deep resonating tones.

Ginny The first time was outside Hexham in a muddy sheep field on a rainy day. The next in was in Corbride (the place most tourist view the wall)

I have to get to the library to catch up with everyone. At the moment I am concentrating on HADRIAN BY Stewart Perone. Great pic of Samian Ware.

I'm off to a luncheon tomorrow with former high school friends and then to the bookstore.

How do I get the tapes. Remember I'm new here.

Ginny EMail me. I toured your old homestead in Moorestown.

Be back with you all when I find the book.

Clare

Hey, hey and Sarah has the books and Clare is READING Hadrian and looking for the book!! YES!!

Clare, we'll mail you the tapes in the order above, will put your name up asap.

Oh Barb, the tea dansants! And Pat, you thought those looked funny? Then you and Robert agree!!

When did men get so drab, they used to be bright things and sartorially splendid. The male in nature is fabulous looking, the female drab.

I love the Poirots because of the dress, especially the dress. Remember Upstairs, Downstairs? Loved the clothes on the men. So many layers.

Clare: Hexam? Must run look at the book, Hexam is ringing many bells, isn't that Vindolanda? Will go look!!

How is HADRIAN??

Will write,

Ginny

Ginny, according to My copy of 'A History of Fashion' mens fashion signature changed never to return to the curve and flurish of their former style with WWII. They speak of the sobering of men reflected in their fashion.

Does anyone but me remember the Galsworthy series. It was one of our favorites of all time on PBS and the mens clothes were really really strange. The women mostly looked great.. My husband spent years being in love with Niree Dawn Porter. Just her name still sends him into praise... Sigh... Guess who has never been tall willowy and fragile.

Is the tape list a new list? I was on the last list but never got to see them. But maybe it might be difficult to send them to Canada so that's alright.

Just wondering...

Pat, you were on the list and I did instruct somebody to send you theirs so you could keep it as it was the last person who watched them.

So you didn't get them either? Gosh! hahahahah I think we can see that they are pretty popular (or pretty forgettable) we had 5 copies of them circulating and I've not seen ONE back, myself.

Tell you what, if you'd like to be on there again, I'll have some more....er....I'll find some more?? and we can start over circulating. It would be a shame to miss them, you'll either LOVE them or HATE them.

Want to try again??

Ginny

Thanks so much Joan P, for the reference to men's clothing! What a hoot! I was delighted as I'd really wondered what on earth the "Oxford pants" were like. I think the site is in error on its timing for the zoot suit--they were popular in the 40s, not the 20s. Or maybe the 20s too? Wouldn't know; wasn't born yet! [smile]

Hi Ginny Hexham is on the S. Bank of the River Tyne. It's halfway across the narrowest part of England. St. Andrew's church is there and it is a Market Town.

Thanks for placing my name on the tape list.

Haydrian is quite a history lesson. I read the first chapter and skipped to the part about the Wall. That is where I am buried right now.

Didn't get to the library as of this moment. Dead Car.

Clare

Ooooh, Clare, the only thing worse than DEAD CAR is DEAD COMPUTER!

Stephanie, the only thing worse than never having been tall, willowy, and fragile is to be no longer tall, willowy and fragile...

Yes, Jeryn, I liked the Oxford Pants too...and I do think those zoot zoots went back to the twenties. During the 40's there was a mini-come-back, though.

How about Bath-chair? Here's another: Bath-chair

What is eluding me is "clock-golf"! Anyone? Barb?

Joan - thank you thank you! I was wondering about the bath chair.

I have to say I LOVE this book! (Ginny promised me it would be either love or hate). Is the discussion actually over???

Sarah T...it cannot be! I have about 20 pages more to read before reading the rest of the posts and talking about the book. Knowing Ginny, we'll be nattering about this one for a good long time!

Oh thank goodness! I have the Make Way for Lucia volume with all of the books in it and think I will be reading it for a good long time. It's a joy to read. Fun, uplifting, hilarious!

Oh Please do not be over - I got a late start on this one and I keep thinking it will give me their voice by playing the tapes while reading. Wrong! No matter the number of times I've now seen the tapes I'm mesmerized. Captivated, I do not read. Of course I can't stop with one tape. How tiresome - Au Resevoir

Maybe we can complete chatting about this one after a while and seque right into Miss Mapp (volume 3).

PS: Barb, you are really missing something if you don't READ the books, especially in the first two volumes which aren't on the tapes!

All in favor?

BATH CHAIR!!!!! Joan Pearson HOW DO you do that?? LOOK at that thing, those wheels, now I must suppose they were used in Bath?? Oh Bath. or as they say there "BAAAAAAAAAAAAAth." Marvelous Roman ruins? Have you all been there? Oh my. Caldariums, your own tour, everything labelled. Oh my. OH well, onward.

Sarah, you LOVE it!!! YAYYAYAYAYAYAYAY!! I'm so glad. Now, would you call YOURSELF a Luciaphil or phobe?

Clock Golf!! Inquiring minds want to know!!

Hexam, Clare, I've been there!! Have you got a copy of Lucia yet??

The strange thing about the books is their fresh hold on you every time. I still think Georgie and Daisy were doing the automatic writing and not planchette, because planchette points out letters and the writing writes, unless it were fitted with a pencil, which may be what it was. I note the "handwriting" looked a lot like Daisy's and when Vittoria spoke, her "handwriting" looked unlike Abfou's.

I'm still laughing over the Guru in Book I. Still looking for "Brompton Square."

And to answer Jo's thought: WAS there a Post Cubist movement??

You can learn a lot from Benson if you can just catch the inferences.

Ginny

How great a bath chair! Joan where ever in the world did you find it? - I think I remember some documentary or such showing woman's swim wear that showed woman seated in their bath chair and the chairs being wheeled and then placed where the waves could break over them. The bath chairs I remember from the documentary were for having fun at the seashore rather then for invalids. I wonder if they were the same chairs being used for a different purpose. From Joan's photo they look to be made of whicker or cane and then water could go through the chair. The documentary was during atime when woman's bathing suits where black, square cut necked dresses with long pantaloons, black stockings and seemed very voluminous, circa 1900 rather then the slimmer bathing suits of the 1920'and the beaches were sprinkled with those brightly colored cabanas.

Since there were wheelchairs as a result of WW1 I wonder why the bath chair and not a wheelchair? Do you think a wheelchair is more gneteel or is it thrift?

Oh yes, I am reading but I have not finished in my usual speed. Just now to the part where Lucia has returned to London after her 'weekend' in Riseholme. Lucia and Mameha could give each other lessons in social minipulation couldn't they.

So far, I love her. She is so deliciously irritating - and pathetic! I just finished reading about her first trip back to Rhisholme after moving to ("visiting") London - hysterical. Snubs all around. She got what she deserved, and I loved seeing her squirm, and yet I still love her!

Ginny Yes, I found the book in the Burlington County Library. They had several copies. Can't wait to get into it.

I've been to Bath. Enjoyed lunch at the Pump Room.

Clare

Why do they leave the "e" off? Is this some joke I'm missing? I still love Lucia. Oh, another thing. Is it "Loosha" or "Lucheeya"?

What is meant by the word "tarsome"? Is it "tiresome" or something else?

What is auction bridge?

Will I learn why Lucia calls hubby Peppino - is it just one of her Italianisms?

Just finished Lucia in London and think I'll go back to the beginning and read Queen Lucia. Did you all discuss that one also?

Love these books!

Sarah, yes we did read Queen Lucia, and I think you'll like it. Which book of the entire series did those of you who read them all like best??

Trying to answer your questions:

Why do they leave the "e" off? Is this some joke I'm missing?

I don't know!! Aren't you smart!! I have no clue, thought I just didn't know how to spell it!! hahahahah

Is it "Loosha" or "Lucheeya"?

They mostly say Loo Che a in the videos but Georgie says Loo CHA! Strangely, the Irene character who comes up in the later books is apparently correctly pronounced "Irenie" and that by only one of the actors, Prunella Scales as Miss Mapp. The rest call her Irene.

What is meant by the word "tarsome"? Is it "tiresome" or something else? I think that's Georgie's "tiresome." I guess that's his rich accent there! hahahahahahaa Hawthorne does it perfectly in the video.

What is auction bridge? NO CLUE!!! Don't know clock golf or auction bridge.

Will I learn why Lucia calls hubby Peppino - is it just one of her Italianisms? Book I says that's her Italianism for Philip which is his real name. That "ino" thing means "little" in Italian, tho, doesn't it? Little Pep? hahahahahahaa

I never have had a reaction to her like others have. I've just always taken her with a grain of salt and found her funny. I guess I'm unable to place myself in her society so can't visualize what life would be like trying to live in her neighborhood.

I was first attracted to these books by the PBS series. Was scanning around and found it one night and it was, or so I thought, so awful, and Lucia's characterization so CAMP and that awful screeching voice that I became hooked, an addict, and would sit up till 3 am to get a broadcast of the thing. Then I read all the books and the two sequels.

It's a...what's the word....TRIP?

hhahahaha

Ginny

I thought Auction Bridge was the type where you tried to outbid each other?? Not being a card player leaves he at a disadvantage. I always wanted to know about clock golf... could it have been like Miniature Gold??? Love the bath chair... Bath , England is on my want to see list.. But this is a very very long list.

Clock golf

Clock golf has been most popular with groups of persons with severe handicaps. It is essentially a putting game and can be played in small spaces such as backyards, lawns, or grounds. A circle, 20 to 24 feet across, is drawn on the ground. Twelve numbers or markers are placed at regular intervals, representing the 12 numerals on the face of a clock. The markers can be tin cans with numbers painted on the bottoms and set into the ground so that they are flush with the surface. The putting hole is placed off center, within the circle, so that the distances vary for each shot.

The game consists of getting the ball into the hole for each numeral, starting with the one o'clock marker and so on around the clock. The object is to "hole" from each successive numeral in the fewest number of putts. When everyone has played around the clock, the player with the lowest number of putts wins. Contestants may play independently or with partners.

I am definitely a Luciaphil!!! As Adele says, "You must enjoy her. It takes such a want of humor to be annoyed with her."

I don't think she's pathetic at all! She's determined, focused, and goes after what she wants with such confidence! By now I think we all know, as does Adele, that she will pull herself out of the most embarassing and ridiculous corners into which she she has painted herself!!! The fun is watching her! I kind of feel sorry for Peppino, now that you mention him. He seems more like her father than her husband, doesn't he? Where is the romance in her life? It certainly wasn't Steven...or Georgie...

I forget who says this..."Lucia, a poseuse, a sham, a snob, but something about her that stirred you into violent, though protesting activity. She prevented you from being dull."

Riseholme really missed her presence...so would I! What's next?

Oh, one more Riesholme observation ...one that sums up our presence here on SeniorNet perfectly, I think:

"But what does it matter how old we are, as long as we're busy and amused!"

I can tell you about Auction Bridge... or any other kind of Bridge, probably! Auction was the kind played before Contract Bridge became popular. Bidding for the privilege of being "declarer" was simply an Auction, much as it is in Contract Bridge, except you were not held to a Contract, rather scoring depended on what you actually made, not whether you made your specified bid or Contract. Believe it or Rip notley, I LEARNED to play Bridge the Auction way, from my parents and grandma!

I'm so delighted with Lucia in London in that Benson seems to put all his chips out to lionize Lucia and truley crowns her a worthwhile 'Queen'. Where as, reading Queen Lucia I was only able to see her tacky competitive barrage. After reading Queen Lucia it was only seeing the vidio's that finally endeared her and the others to me.

Peppino is truly the reversal of "behind every successful ... is a ...". I wonder how much of Peppino is Benson in his household of woman, writing his fiction rather than poetry, and watching the explosion of life, from a woman's perspective, unfold all around him.

CLOCK GOLF!! After all these years of reading Benson, I never thought to know what that was, and now I find myself fascinated with the idea!

Joan, I don't know how you DO it, thanks so much! Now I'm having to restrain myself from making such a thing in the yard and I HATE golf. It sounds better than croquet and a lot more arcane.

AUCTION Bridge!! Jeryn again, how fascinating. If you all lived closer maybe we could play or I could learn bridge, have only played the honeymoon kind. Our Larry, I understand, in the Books, is somewhat of a Shark at bridge. Surprising! hahahahahahahaaa

Barbara, I think her character continues to evolve thru the books, especially in the sequel to Mapp & Lucia. She turns 50 and the stuff about the stock market is just a hoot. And the...well I won't spoil it for those going on.

Jeryn, let us know when the videos get there, OK??

As far as Peppino goes, he could hardly have been a dynamic figure, too, marrired to her, could he? I mean the energy between the two of them would have worn each other out. As it was, she wore him out, and he was glad to get back home.

As to romance in her life, what an interesting idea. Perhaps she made her own "romance." Perhaps our ideas of romance would be alien to her, witness her horror over Stephen and the bathrobe/ bedroom incident.

It's possible she created her own force which suited her perfectly. What is meant by "romance" in the broad sense and how could we see Lucia enjoying it? Somehow the idea of her being wooed and won or even sustained by a suitor is not credible, note that even tho she fawns on "Lord Tony" she comparmentalizes him for her own use.

Until I wrote that, I had not realized how like she might be thought to Hyacinth Bucket of the "Keeping Up Appearances" British sitcom now beginning again on PBS. Hyacinth "strives" with her candle-light suppers, for the uppper crust, but repels totally the advances of same in the form of the Major.

Lucia "strives" to swim among the titled, but I think she would be aghast at any romantic overtures, maybe even from Peppino. Maybe that's why he writes poetry that she pretends to read. The business about her struggling with the knots of his latest volume of Penseri is worth the price of the book it's in, and, in typical Benson throw away form, you've passed over to the next page before it hits you.

Benson himself, of course, never married, nor did any of his brothers or sister. Perhaps his passions and romantic ideals revealed themselves in other ways. An aesthetic, artistic and very odd family.

Ginny

Ginny - do you think Lucia would react differently to romantic overtures from men that are not homosexual (as I presume Georgie and Stephen are)? I haven't seen any such overtures in the book - even from Peppino - so I can't decide yet.

Clock golf - I too hate the idea of golf (it's huge here right now) but clock golf also appealed to me!

Thank you Joan and Jeryn for shedding light on both games - have never played either. Now if I could only visualize a planchette - and how it differs from a Quija board.

Don't have the tapes yet, Ginny; will let you know.

So Larry's a Bridge shark, eh?! Must talk to that man...

Sarah, there's a picture of planchette in the Ouija Boards URL that Joan brought in, and instructions for making your OWN if you like!

I just read that article in its entirety and it's fascinating! Oui and ja: that's yes in two languages and that's where the name came from, it's a Parker Brothers Game made in the US! hahahahahahahahaha

Oh I can't believe that! Just READ what people think it is, etc.

I know what you mean, the writing. The only planchettes I've ever seen were just pointers or pointers with glass which spelled out slowly words.

Benson may have been incorrect about his combination of automatic writing and planchette, I'll go ask the list serve.

Ginny

Sarah: here is the perfectly splendid and almost immediate response from the Benson List Serve on Planchette, copied verbatim:

" Hi Daisy -

Nice to hear from you again. Here's a bit I found at a site devoted to the History of Ouija boards that may help answer your question about pencils and planchettes:

"There is no doubt that ancient man used a primitive form of symbol divination to obtain knowledge of the unknown and to prognosticate the future. Alphabet oracles provided access to what he believed was a source of preternatural power, the sought after "well spring" of knowledge. But it wasn't until the 1850's that an instrument actually existed to write an answer from the elusive spirit world. This instrument, called the planchette, was a small heart shaped table with two rotating casters underneath and a pencil at the apex, forming the third leg. Seekers of the unknown would place their hands on the planchette and allow it to move, writing down the message from "the other side." Legend has it that the inventor of this device was a French medium named Planchette but no information on such a person exists and the fact that the word "planchette" in French means "little plank" suggests a more prosaic explanation. Originally, French Spiritualists were the exclusive users of the planchette, but soon its popularity spread throughout Europe. By 1868 it made it to the United States where it created an overnight sensation. Toy companies, eager to make a buck, turned them out by the thousands. The planchette became one of the most popular parlor games ever. Enter three enterprising Americans: E.C. Reiche, Elijah Bond, and Charles Kennard with an interest in all things mystical and a concept that would revolutionize supposed contact with the great beyond. They discovered that there was an easier way than a pencil and paper to bring the spirits over. They created a lap tray with letters of the alphabet arranged in twin arcs across the middle of the board. Below the letters were the numbers one to ten. In the corners were YES and NO. They kept the planchette but instead of casters used padded wooden pegs to permit a smooth glide over the surface of the board. Now all you had to do was let the planchette move from letter to letter to spell out a message. Charles Kennard called the new board Ouija (pronounced We Ja) after the Egyptian word for good luck. Ouija is not really Egyptian for good luck, but since the board told him it was during a session, the name stuck. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/2160/ouija.html"> Planchette

So it looks like the earliest planchettes had pencils and the later, American-made models didn't.

I've run across several explanations of the origins of the word Ouija, by the way. The one given above sounds fairly plausible.

Pug"

They really are a marvelous resource.

Ginny

What is the "list serve" anyway/ It does sound like they're helpful. And thanks for the info.

Did any of you ever fool around with a Ouija board? It's quite spooky!

No, but I would love to - it does make sense in that we are energy that some can even see an aura of our energy surrounding us. So it is not too big a leap for me to imagine our combined energy in a group setting bringing forth answers from our collective unconscience wisdom.

Wouldn't it be 'loverly' to have a few of us together to depth the collective answers for some current sticky points.

Ginny, I had a Ouija Board as a kid (years ago) My cousins and I had great times with it especially trying to get it to spell out the names of our future mates. I'm not sure how succesful we were. But it was fun.

I am about 3/4 of the way through the book but I am not quite sure if I like Lucia or not because she reminds me so much of a gal I worked with and we all said "Give her enough rope and she'll hang herself" HasN't hppened, last I heard she was still climbing the ladder.

Clare

Oh, I never wanted to learn how to play golf, but the clock sounds fascinating. I grew up playing croquet, so would love it.. Alas, we have a small front yard and no back yard at all.. Ouija... oh for all of us to get together and give it a try. Someone making sure that ginny does not push..

Maybe Ginny can bring her Ouija board with her to Chicago.

STEPHANIE!!!

What do you mean Someone making sure that Ginny does not push.. hahahah, well now, I don't have one of the devilish things, but I'm willing to buy one, if I can find one. I was half thinking of bringing one to England as a joke, but as Joan P says, they ARE spooky, and it might be hard to explain to Customs. I'll see if I can get one for Chicago unless you think the Blackstone Hotel would turn into another Shining. Wouldn't it be fun, tho?

Maybe.

They ARE spooky. Now, all of you come if you can and we'll WEEDJ!

Sarah, the Benson List Serve is an email list devoted to the works of EF Benson. They're real enthusiasts and very knowledgable. Of course I had to mention US to them in my last letter, why NOT? Their address is benson@world.std.com, but that's not how you subscribe.

I'm not sure that the man/ woman passion thing is big in the Benson books. I just got a wonderful letter from the Benson Society in England and it was quoting a talk given to them in last Autumn that the Bensons as a family had almost no intimate friends. "It transpired that nearly all their friends were eminent but that they were not really close to any of them. Most of the family regarded friends much as many people would regard acquaintances. This was especially true of AC Benson (EF's brother). The Archbishop of Canterbury (EF's father) had almost no male friends, but many adoring female friends. They were all more comfortable when in control and this really precluded their being people who could form frienships based on equality." This November, a talk will be given on the friends of EF Benson, so we'll hear when it happens, I suspect.

Found THE most romantic thing in the news yesterday, want to see when I put it in here if you all can visualize Lucia in it?

Even the married men in this book are pretty dry, wouldn't you say? Thinking of Robert, and Colonel Boucher, who else, really? IN the first two books who else IS married but Peppino and Lucia?

Clare, isn't that funny? Several people disliked Lucia because she reminded them of people at work and they just wanted to wring her NECK~ ahhahahaha

I bet the videos will change your conception.

Wasn't that a hoot about the Museum ? The mittens of Queen Charlotte? What are "gaiters?" "Pair of riding gaiters, in good condition, belonging to his Majesty King George the Fourth"

The whole bit about the running back and forth by the visitors and then Olga's Princess reverently looking at the mittens while Lucia had disdained them, too rich. What is Benson saying there, I wonder?

And the "gaiters" went for 10s and sixpence. (Trying not to spoil the suspense for those not finished with the book).

I still can't get over Sotheby's auction of the effects of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. Everything, just about, that he put ON was auctioned. I've still got the catalogues, they're HUGE. I don't know now whether I regret not replacing my bids when the thing was called off the first time due to Diana's death.

The stuff went for so much more than they ever imagined, and so was way out of my league anyway, but I might have got a toothbrush! hahahahahahaa

I'm wondering to myself what MORE clever things were common in the '20s like Clock Golf that we don't know anything about now.

Ginny

What do you think, by the way? Want to try for the third in the series? MISS MAPP?

Or not?

Ginny

I'm definitely game to read Miss Mapp. I actually am finding Queen Lucia a bit dry - this is the one where Daisy brings the guru to Riseholme. I'm glad I didn't start with the first book first! (I'm also trying to trudge through Memoirs of a Geisha - not a great read either, so it's not a high point in my summer reading right now).

There's another married couple - Daisy and Richard.

Yes, the whole story of the mittens was hysterical. Loved it! Ginny, I'm glad to see you back in full form. I've missed you!

Anybody else for Mapp? We've not got the tapes circulating yet and you DO have to at least SEE the tapes before you make your final decision.

Actually Mapp is one of the weaker ones, but the one following Mapp & Lucia is quite good, so what to do there.

Sarah, that's interesting, if you'd read Queen Lucia first you might not have persevered, wonder if anybody else feels that way? I'll find out.

Well bless your heart, it's nice to be missed, tho I haven't been anywhere but crazy! hahahah

Now HERE is my idea of "romance " Can you see Lucia here at all?

From People Magazine June 21, 1999.

"Thomas 'Wick" Schmidt, upon giving the graduation salutation in Latin at Princton University's graduation ceremonies, snuck into his address a proposal to Anastacia Rohrman. He's told a friend, who then handed Miss Rohrman a huge sign with the word YES stenciled on both sides. She's gorgeous, he's handsome, and the 10,000 plus crowd roared its approval. He hopes to spend some of his graduation gift money on a ring, he's working this summer in ALEXANDRIA, Joan!! He enters Yale Law School in September. She's to work as a mechanical engineer in Connecticut.

They walked out of the autidorium together,. Schmidt says he prayed about his daring propasl the night before. 'It's probably the only creative thing,' he added, I'll ever do.'"

What a guy. What a couple. What a story. How romantic can you GET??

Now, can you see Lucia in that one?

Ginny

Just look at this marvelous couple:

He


She


The Happy Couple

I must be getting old, that brings tears to my eyes!

Ginny

Well, maybe I'm the one who's getting old...still smarting from one of the graduations where the "he" hired a plane with a trailing banner asking "her" to marry him! Circled the outdoor graduation exercises for 30 minutes, drowning out several speakers...never learned if "she" said "yes"...and didn't care!!!

What does that say about Benson's writing if one needs the tapes to appreciate the writing?
Yes, I am all for Mapp, no matter how weak...I think we are all sufficiently "philed" to make the most of it...to appreciate the Bensonisms and to delve into the '20's references! Yes! Let's do it!

Ginny! You romantic thing! Your "happy couple" are just as cute as they can be!

I'll go along for the ride on any or all the rest of the adventures of Lucia... since I've read them all now! My favorites were the last two but I have to admit, I was hooked after Queen Lucia!

And I have not yet seen hide nor hair of the tapes! [If you sent them, Jackie, they're lost!] Probably won't like them but that is just me. Generally speaking, I HATE sitcoms and if the BBC treated these like SITCOMS, they're outta here!!!

Jeryn - I'm with you - hate sitcoms (British sitcoms included - or, rather, especially). I'll stick to the books - then I can romanticize their world all on my own.

Ginny - romantic as heck. wow, what a power couple. Wick and Anastacia - they sound like royalty. "Queen Anastacia and King Thomas (everyone calls him Wick) sailed for the Marquesas this morning on the first leg of an around the world tour that will include delivering smallpox vaccines to several communities of Pacific Islanders, launching a yacht race down under and continuing princess Di's anti-landmine work in Southeast Asia."

Of course, you should read Miss Mapp. I'll be looking in quite often to make sure you get it right..

I know you'll enjoy my window on the village, but don't want to tell too much.

But do join Ginny. She just never seems to get enough of this great collection of books.

E. Mapp

The ghost of Mapp, haunting the Books! It's enough to drive you insane, if you let it. hahahahaha

OK, we'll proceed to MAPP on JULY what? How about August. I'm going to be gone till August 3, so let's make it the 5th unless one of you wants to start it earlier (HINT HINT).

I don't know what it means that the videos have so much influence over the books, or add to them. They're quite different, in a way. The Padre loses Wee Wifie, Lucia turns blonde, but some of the characterizaions are SO "spot on," that I would have hated to miss them. On the one hand, the videos are CAMP with a capital C but they are addictive. On the other hand, a purist would argue with some of the interpretations? Most of the enthusiasts, the societies, are pretty hung up on them. For years and years they were unavailable, in fact they are JUST NOW being made available in England! And they are all estatic? So it's, I guess, PART of the experience but not the pure one.

I do wonder what Benson would have thought of them.

Ginny

Geez, I had no idea this Benson thing was such a phenomenon! Ginny, maybe I will take those tapes after all (if they ever surface). I'll e-mail you.

Qui-hi onward to Elizabeth, her strawberry beds and voluptuous teas.

For me I would never have imagined someone like Lucia carrying on her campaigns with such panache and elegance unless I saw the vidio. As I read Queen Lucia she seemed just competitive and calculating as opposed to grand.

We do not seem to have 'Grand Dames' even among our most respected. Competitive, yes, the 'need' to be top or first, yes, but cannot think of a 'Grand' as is both Lucia and Mrs. Wyse. Like Quaint Irene would say,"What a joy you are, as I watched you on vidio - you play act like an angle".

Now how are we scheduling this read? Ginny when do you leave? I cannot imagine this discussion without you. I can understand wanting to share responsibility but oh, your imput I would miss and it keeps me going.

SaraT -- Have you ever seen "As Time Goes By" with Judy Dench (or is it Judi?)? Quite wonderful for a sitcom!

hahahha Sarah, it's quite the phenom! There are TWO competing Benson Societies, both dead serious. Both have yearly meetings which are very well attended, and produce newsletters and reports. The videos almost remind me of that movie where the audience sings with the movie and acts out the parts? I could act out the parts of the videos, I believe.

Of course the Societies are true Literary Societies and dead on, and one of them, I won't say which, is almost Lucia-like in its machinations. Got thrown out of one, actually for irreverence. Can you imagine?

The List Serve is separate from the two Societies.

Barb, aren't you kind? Yes, will be gone from the 19th July till the 3rd, but we can take it up on August 5 or July 5 whichever you'd all like.

Sarah, yes, you possibly (I say that with reservations) might like the videos. Their awfulness attracted me, they are NOT sitcomish, are they, Guys??

Unlike many of you, I love British sitcoms, can't get too bad for me. Love Keeping Up Appearances.

JO: I love Judy Dench and that actor with her, Geoffrey Palmer, was SO funny in "Clockwise." If you like British comedy, you must see Clockwise with John Cleese. Just hilarious, really. I have it, too, if anybody wants to start a chain. Small part, but cute.

I have long wondered if he, too, is in the Tilling Society. Somebody with his exact same name is, and is referred to all the time as if he WERE a celebrity??

I thought Judy Dench looked marvelous when she won the Tony this year, just splendid and very attractive.

JO: Am leaving Saturday thru Wednesday for a trip so will wait till I get back to launch our secret new discussion! DON'T YOU DARE get ahead!!

Now don't you all want to know what it IS??

Ginny

Desperately, Ginny! Do tell! Or give us a hint - in the spirit of Bloomsday.

I see, so what you're saying is that the Benson tapes are to Luciaphils what Rocky Horror Picture Show is to my generation! Egad!

I can't imagine you being thrown out of any society - you add so much!

Sarah: hahahah, well bless your heart, I assure you I was.

Our new discussion will now debut June 28 as both Jo and I will be out of touch off and on till then.

Hint: it's such an arcane subject NOBODY will want to participate, that's why we need to wait for us to return! ahhahahaha However, we're quite UP for it.

Hint Hint in the spirit of the Bloomsday Contest:

It was the subject of a song.

Ginny

I love all of the Lucia books, but did not care for the tapes. Guess it has to do with the image of Lucia I always had. Georgie looked right, but Lucia was too too glamerous.

I'm with you, Stephanie. I had let Benson paint Lucia in my mind, and then I saw the tapes and really missed my old Lucia. I was lost! Had a difficult time going back to the book. Schizophrenia! It took months to get her back! I'll never look at a movie again until I am totally finished with the reading...too hard to go back to the strange characters!

Isn't that interesting? Normally I hate to see any illustrations whatsoever of ANY book because I like, like you do, to build up my own idea of the characters and hate to have to confront somebody else's version.

In this case, perhaps becuase I FIRST heard of Benson via PBS and the tapes, I then had, for instance, Major Benjy and Mr. Wyse permanently in my mind when I finally located the books.

Sarah, you might want to reconsider, now. At least until you have finished the series.

I do think that the books are richer in detail and of course the series had to leave out a lot of the equisite moments which makes it so fine. Still, I think the actors did about as good a job as could be expected, they will certainly never be bettered.

Prunella Scales, of Fawlty Towers fame, had never heard of Benson before doing the series as Miss Mapp and immediately became an ardent fan and Tilling Society member, so PBS has really, in that instance, provided Fred with an entire new generation of admirers.

Steph: glamorous? I agree. But she looks better and better to me lately when at first I thought: eh. Now I think, LOOK at that throat, how DOES she do that? Kinda like Sophia Loren who has had NO surgery? That jaw!!

Jowly...er...Ginny

I'm definitely reconsidering given Stephanie and Joan's comments. Ginny, it sounds like they're floating out in the ether anyway, so leave me on the list - by they time they make it to me, I'll probably be done with the books anyway.

So what's the verdict on Miss Mapp? Will we read it? If so, when?

Let's go for it!! When is the question?? How about July 15th? Is that enough time for everybody to get the book? Mapp in Book III is a different proposition, indeed, new town, new characters, and then Benson combines them in Book IV forever more. I can see why the series started with Book IV for the television shows.

It would REALLY be a hoot to read the Tom Holt sequels, people are divided in opinion about them. I love them myself, it might be great fun to discuss them with THIS group.

Let me write, when I get back, the original group, too, and see how many are game for the entire series PLUS sequels (which are scarcer than hen's teeth).

It's a pleasure to even contemplate reading another one. The perfect bedside book.

Ginny

July 15 is fine w/ me. What are the Tom Holt sequels?

JULY 15 will it be Tea, Dinner and a rubber of Bridge or an early morning confab on the streets of Tilling? Whatever, I will lose my heart to our Miss Mapp!

OK, let's do it up royally! Tea, a rubber of bridge, a little clock golf and maybe Barbara singing whilst Sarah plays! Joan can come late and bring back all the party by her entrance, Jeryn can pose a puzzler and do GAMES, Steph can teach us OHM, Pat can make up some gooseberry fool, Josie can bring the Lobster a la Riseholme, Judy can shout "Quai Hai!," Clare can translate everything we say into Italiano, and I'll bring Pug on a cushion! WHO did I leave out and WHAT will you be bringing??

Tom Holt, who normally writes, I believe SciFi, anyway he's known for his other books, wrote two sequels to the Mapp & Lucia saga. His mother is the mystery author Hazel Holt. Apparently he lives near Rye as he has appeared at their gatherings, and has even written new short stories to present to them.

The two books are marvelous continuations of the series. Purists are divided about whether, in fact, they should have been written at all, and whether they even come UP to the mark. I find the individual anecdotes in the books unforgettable. In fact, I had the "oranges" episode confused with the real books. It is true that Holt does not have the delicious touch of the Master Benson, but he's a pretty good parody.

If a copy could be obtained, and one would have to start now, I'd think, unless something very strange has occurred, they would make a good contrast to Benson's style.

Au reservoir till Wednesday!

Daisy

I would like to say here, that I love Fawlty Towers, John Cleese and Prunella Scales in it! And if my introduction to Lucia had been through the tapes, I would have enjoyed them, and Prunella might have appeared with ease on Benson's pages. But, that's not how it happened. I started to read and half-way through, I watched the tapes...and Lucia underwent a split-personality phenom...

Here's what I found on Tom Holt's sequels to Benson's Lucia. Not much, but now we have some titles to work with. Will check Barnes and Noble...

Tom Holt's sequels

I got the tapes! I got the tapes! Already I've watched episode I and I'm happy to report: NO CANNED LAUGHTER!! Unlike you, Jo, I find the Lucia of the silver screen to be much like the Lucia I pictured in my mind. It's Georgie that's very different! But I think I can adjust... they are really quite delightful!

May I assume from the list that I'm to send these on to Pat W? You can e-mail me your mailing address anytime, Pat! I don't think it will take me long to enjoy these!!

Oh oh! A party??! On July 15!! I'm to furnish a game? Can't believe you chose July 15!?!?!? THAT'S MY 65TH BIRTHDAY!!!! Hey, let's go for it!!!!!!!!!!

Jeryn: What kind of cake would you like? I was thinking of pastel-iced petite fours.

Oh Pat! I love them! Just make sure they're low fat. [FAT chance--hahaha] I got your e-mailed address. I'll let you know when they are actually mailed.

I want to hear more about this PARTY!!!

My Italiano is a bit sparse plus I will be at a Senior Retreat in the Pocono Mts., Pa. all of that week. Just my luck. I'll be thinking about you. Jeryn HAPPY BIRTHDAY Glad to hear those tapes are in sight.

Clare Mc (ITALIAN from a Scotsman)Wow

Thanks Clare. Birthday is a ways off yet but all wishes always welcome!

I've watched 2 episodes of these tapes now--I'll be interested to hear [see?] what y'all think of Miss Mapp. She looks the part. She acts the part. But I can't understand a word she says! The gist is there with the body language and all, anyway. And this person playing Lucia is just superb. [one gal's opinion]

I'm back, sort of, busy week ahead!

Jeryn, I'm so glad you're enjoying the tapes, and I can't wait to discuss them with you all as soon as we've all seen them. And you thought GEORGIE was the different one!!

So interesting. Sir Nigel never gives Georgie as a credit, I guess he has too many other credits now.

I loved the Holt books, myself. They're quite short, just delicious little pastiches, you might say. Especially, I think, the Lucia in Wartime, very short, about 1/2 the size of London...it's over before you get settled in.

Do you all realize we are actually READING an author? For the first time, I believe, in the Books, we're READING an AUTHOR and his works. It's a first. How fitting it should be Benson who leads the way.

Back later,

Ginny

Mapp is perfect in the Tv, exactly as I pictured her as is Georgie, Irene and Daisy.. Its only Lucia herself who baffles me. Oh well. They were fun, just different. Sophia Loren.... Oh me... I never looked that good in my life.. She has a lovely sensuality and still a pureness of spirit that shows through. Ahh, some Italians... I know off the topic, but I do admire her.

Now, Ginny, don't forget, we have already read two of Thomas Hoving's books, with the electronic Duke and Art for Dummies on deck...

By the way, I checked our local library today and they had both of Thomas Holt's sequels...Lucia at War and Lucia Triumphant You said you read them. What do you think?

Am listening to Lucia in London in my car - what a delicious tale - small wonder that Noel Coward was a devotee! Geraldine McEwan is reading - sometimes hard to decipher when in heavy traffic so I turn it up - at stop lights people are beginning to look at me skeptically.

Joan: I loved them both. The one with the oranges, I can't remember which, just loved it. Perhaps now that we may reread them together, I may see some things I wouldn't, it will be interesting to see. I wish he'd write more.

It may be that he lacks just a touch of the "Master's edge," and has too many interesting happenings, but I thought the second book....well, let's read them together and SEE what we think!!

Yes, and Jeryn and Maida, those accents!! I have to turn up the tapes so loud I'm sure they hear them in Nova Scotia, to catch all the dropped and clenched words, hahahahaha, but it IS worth it. Prunella Scales reads one set, I've got those too. hahahahah

Does McEwan attempt the male voices?

By the way, the Tillling Society says it's NOT "QUAY HI" at all nor is it, if I remember correctly, pronounced so! Will go look it up.

Ginny

Ginny,

Yes, McEwan does do the male voices but doesn't really attempt at too much of a lower range. Georgie is almost whiny. She verbally blusters about with some of the men from Lucia's village with much loud emphasis on some of their posturings. Am just where Lucia has arrived in London and is describing her activities in a letter to Georgie.

Boy that Benson List Serve is a treasure trove of stuff: here, for instance, is the low down on "fairy cakes," and Geraldine McEwan:

"Fairy Cakes are small sponge cakes, often decorated with icing. Imagine a small American muffin, but lighter in texture..."

I appreciated that, and here's some news on McEwan: THIS POST is from the Benson List Serve and not me!!!! I'm not going to London till we go in April or May!!

"

Geraldine McEwan credits include: Barchester Chronicles, Mulberry, Tears Before Bedtime (Brit TV), The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (TV), Littlest Horse Thieves (70's disney film, just now on video - through Amazon,) Henry V (Branagh's version - she plays a delightful fair Alice to Emma Thompson's Catherine), Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves (Rickman and McEwan made the movie bearable!) The Love Letter, and coming this fall and winter !!!! Branagh's 1930-40's version of Love's Labour's Lost with Nathan Lane, Richard Briers (co-star in The Chairs production) AND Titus, starring Anthony Hopkins and directed by Julie Tamar (Lion King) They filmed a lot of this in Croatia during January. She indeed has directed many plays --- as part of the Renaissance Group - she directed Kenneth Branagh in As You Like It, to wonderful reviews!

I simply adore her work and like so many, became a Bensonite because of her performance. She is also one of the most gracious women I've met. In four days I'm off to London and have tickets for Hay Fever. "

So you can see entusiasts abound, even for McEwan. Now it seems we have several new good things to look out for her in!

Ginny

Ginny... You may remove my name from the list up there as I've sent the tapes along to Pat W yesterday. They were most enjoyable but I'll reserve further comment until all have seen them.

Just checking in from I-80 in Cheyenne, Wy... We'll probably be home about a dat after the tapes arrive... The postmaster said 1st class takes about 4 or 5 days... I'm reading Lucia as we travel.. no not when I'm driving.. Just when we have to stop early for Charlie.

Pat how do you enjoy the lightness of Lucia on the road? I love Lucia while traveling, seems to be an "anchor" in strange places, or do you find it so?

So glad to see you here!! Now which one are you reading?? Do you have to lift that heavy tome or do you have the smaller ones?

Ginny

We will be glad to see you back miss you already!!

Gags

I hope the tapes are ready and waiting to welcome you home, Pat! Drive safely, reading only at stoplights, right? <BG>