Red Tent ~ Anita Diamant ~ 6/00 ~ Book Club Online Export

And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land

So begins the 34th Chapter of Genesis, which in 31 short verses, tells the story of Dinah. Not a word is uttered by Dinah in the Bible, although her story, as are all biblical tales, is used to teach us: The flaw of vanity, the shame that surely comes from indulging children, the folly of revenge, the destructiveness of hypocrisy and deceit, the dangers of false religion....

"Alas! how one sin leads on to another, and, like flames of fire, spread desolation in every direction! Foolish pleasures lead to seduction; seduction produces wrath; wrath thirsts for revenge; the thirst of revenge has recourse to treachery; treachery issues in murder; and murder is followed by other lawless actions. Were we to trace the history of unlawful commerce between the sexes, we should find it, more than any other sin, ending in blood..."

from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

But this is the Bible story. Using the ancient rabbinical technique of midrash, Anita Diamant gives Dinah her own voice. Although a work of fiction, she fills in the before and after frames of Dinah's story, and in so doing, reveals a life - but also the world as it was when our civilization was born - through the eyes of a woman. Click on the Bible image below to read the short story of Dinah. Please join us on July 1st as we hear her tell it as imagined by

Anita Diamant.

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Interpretations of Women in Scripture	Promoting The Red Tent	The Exodus

Please e-mail CharlieW if you would like to view a tape of the Nova program: Lost Tribes of Israel. After you're finished - get the address of the next person on the list and mail the tape on. Thanks.
1. Barbara St. Aubrey	2. Lorrie	3. betty gregory
4. GailT	5. Pat Westerdale	6. Ann Alden (and Ella)	7. May Nabb

"Probably more than in other book discussions...we'll have to honor each other's ideas and thoughts."~~~Betty Gregory

Your Discussion Leaders were: Alf, Lorrie, Barbara St. Aubrey, and maryal

CharlieW, Fiction Coordinator

COMING to BC Online: >FLU ~~ August 1, 2000
The Human Stain ~~ September 1, 2000

Once again I'm out of sync - I read this book about a month ago but I'd like to sign up for the discussion - it should provoke some lively discussion. See you in July.

You're not out of sync, Diane. You're ahead of the curve!

Ah Charlie, you have a way with words!

Oh Charlie! This is a wonderful book. I have finished it and must make a folder of notes before returning it to the library. somewhere I read that IF the bible had been related by a woman, it would read much like this novel. I truly loved it and I admire you for taking this one on.

I finished this book several weeks ago and have every intention of reading it again with you all. It is dynamite!

The first thing it did to me was make me go back into the Old Testament to refresh myself on just what the good book said about Dinah. While Matthew Henry's commentary is right on, the many years I had of bible teaching always sacrificed this story for the larger one of what you get if you don't follow God's word! On many, many levels, Diamant's gift is a valuable story for all of us, and certainly puts a human face on those old stories.

Gail T. - There was a short article in yesterday's Boston Globe about a new reference book coming out on Women in Scripture and how the long held interpretations are being challenged. I read Steinbeck's East of Eden recently and there was lengthy and detailed discussion of the interpretation of one hebrew word and its meaning. I think it's a positive thing that we can be open to reinterpretations of the 'given' word. After all, we're working with a translation in the first place, are we not?

I have put a link to the article up top.

Glad you'll be joining us Gail.

This discussion is either going to thrill me to the bone(I DO love reinterpretations---looking at something in a new light, and all that) or it's going to drive me crazy.

So, this would be a good time to pledge patience, courtesy, forbearance, doing unto others......and the greatest of these is......

You can remind me I said this.

A fascinating book. I'm looking forward to reading all the comments.

I have owned the book for some time, but not read it yet. It sounds just my piece of cake, and I'm on board and waiting for the train to start.

If you like different interpretations of women in the Bible, try BORN OF A WOMAN by Bishop John Shelby Spong. A Bishop rethinks the Virgin Birth and the treatment of women by a male-dominated church.

Please understand here, I am NOT trying to push a view on Anyone. Just passing the word about a very provocative book.

I have just finished my first reading of The Red Tent and am still enthralled. I too went back to the old testement to look up Dinah. I also have some Lost Books of the Bible and I have to dig them out and see If Dinah's story is in there. But the book is so well written that just as a "story" it stands up and it fascinates, on a historic level, it educates about daily life, as a social commentary on the times it seems we must add our own, the Author did not do that in an overt way. I will be waiting for a discussion of this book. Faith

I envy you folks that can read ahead. I've been holding this one, waiting until closer to the start time to read it---except for the 3-page prologue, was it, that captured me.

Oh, dear, must be the Texas heat that's triggering old Texas speech patterns----I've started saying (again) "bless your heart," "well, my goodness," and look at that "you folks" in the first sentence. I sound like my sweet Texas grandmother.

I too, Betty, am holding off on this one (although I think I've read the first 5-6 pages numerous times). In fact, this one will be my first experiment with something. I downloaded a copy of this as an electronic book and this will be my initial experiment with that medium. I'm looking forward to that too.

By the way, for those of you who do want to go back to the "source" for this one, you can also click on the Bible image at the top of the page and it will take you to Genesis 34, where you can read the "complete" story of Dinah as told in the Bible. When we start this in July, I'd suggest that as our point of departure. What, as related in Genesis 34, is the story of Dinah meant to convey in accepted, conventional terms? Just a suggestion.

Oh, Charlie, how can you not hold the book. I can't imagine the experience of reading a book without the holding of it. I'll even admit to slowly stroking the page when something really gets to me. Then there's the writing in the margins, bookmarking with torn strips of paper. Even seeing it across the room with anticipation before reading it (this one has an amazing cover) and with pleasure when I'm half way through reading it. I even like seeing a finished book on the bookshelf with its memories of when I read it.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and I wouldn't miss it as much as I think I would. You must keep us posted how it goes. Hmmm. Saving money would be nice.

I knew i'd hear that reaction. And I share many of the same feelings. I primarily buy books because I like to see them finished and sitting in a bookshelf. Who can explain that? And as for saving money - that's not the case either. Beyond the initial investment for a "reader" (which, given Microsoft's track record, I may have just bought another betamax)the prices appear to be the same as the iteration (is that right??) available. If it's in PB then the e-book is the same as the PB Price. If it's only in HB, the the e-book is the sames as the HB discounted price. However, you CAN bookmark and you can even write in the margins, though this appears to be pretty cumbersome - a letter at a time with a stylus. BUT - you can do a word search of the entire text. Now THAT'S appealing.

I truly LOVED this novel. My only complaint is that I borrowed it and did not buy it. It is well worth the money. Two people I know have purchased it, just listening to me carrying on about how enjoyable it was. I returned it to the library but am in hopes of finding it at my daughters local library 7/1, up in NYS

I am looking forward to discussing The Red Tent in July!

Okay, okay! I have dropped the dozen or more other books I am reading, including the ones we are into here on SeniorNet, and am reading The Red Tent. The fact that it has much to do with the sons of Jacob, who each spawned one of the 12 tribes of Israel, rather fascinates me because it is the second time that subject has come up in my life so far this year. Did anyone here see the excellent program on public television just a couple of months ago about how they have now located, absolutely for sure with DNA and all, most of the Lost tribes? I could easily watch that whole documentary again.

Noooo Mary tell, tell, where were the lost tribes located? Have they pieced together their real history?

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing that documentary. That's what I'm going to love about this book, the history. MaryPage, do you know the name of the piece or have an idea how to find out?

Thanks a bunch, Charlie. You are a true scholar and a gentleman. Here I was afraid I had opened my big mouth and put myself up for some effort; and I the laziest critter ever to see the light of our sun.

I absolutely cannot recommend that show too highly. I was riveted to my chair the whole time, and I am a restless wanderer while the telly is noising off.

Yes, I am convinced they have found the lost tribes; and they are EVERYWHERE! How wonderful that we are one close-knit globe now and someone took the trouble to search for them. Please, please do not forget to let me know how YOU feel after you have viewed this show.

I am securing a copy of the Nova program that MaryPage brought to our attention. Please post here, or e-mail me and I'll put together a rotation for viewing as we've done in the past. I'll mail it to the first person on the list and that person can mail it to the next after viewing, etc.
Charlie

Wow Charles! Yes, please, I would love to see it, especially now that I have time with this gimpy arm-- shoot I forgot how to make my email address a clickable but it is-- augere@ix.netcom.com

When I viewed Ginny's "Mapp & Lucia" tapes I mailed them on within two days to next on the list by emailing Ginny to learn who and where.

I wasn't going to read this thinking the discussion would become so mired with and engaged in the differences in our theology but, I've changed my mind. Sounds like it is going to be a great group engaged in an open dialogue and so I will pick-up the book tomorrow.

Charlie, I want to see the tape too! I've never participated in this before, but I am very interested in being on the list. However, I am moving on June 23, so please put me far enough down on the list so that I will get it after that date. Thanks.

Also be sure to check your public tv station listings to see if this program is to be repeated this summer. You might even call and ask for it to be shown.

I read part of the book, but am going to finish it now because I want to participate. I think the author embellished some of the bible text. I really read it because my first name is Dinah. The only thin is that I am going away on July 5th, but will look forward to joining the discussion before then.

Nereide: Embellished the tale? The Red Tent is exactly that, an embellishment, an adornment ofGenesis 34. I loved it and have advised every woman I know to read it.

The basic story in the Bible is very meager, but this is a work of Fiction which enlarges and fills in and gives us a "probably this is the way it was" story. The author has studied not only the scriptures involved, but all of the other resources available. She shows a keen knowledge of the details of living in those times and of the topography. We know that these people really existed and we have had the bare bones of their story. Diamant has fleshed it out for us and I, for one, find her fiction very plausible.

I think Marypage and Alf, that you are exactly right about Ms. Diamants talents. She took a bare bone mention in the bible and wrote a "Fiction Novel" that is the most interesting historical novel I have read in a long time. It has everything in it. Family struggles, Jealousy, Rage.Passion,Compassion, and very little "Religion" as we look at it today . It was the time of change from the worship of the Goddess to the Patriarchy of Jacob and there is to much to discuss there than Jewish or Christian or Buddist for that matter.In fact I did not see the word Jewish or Christian any where in the novel, so this probable will not devolve into a discussion of modern religious beliefs. I do hope anyway. Faith

Mary Page: You said, "Diamant has fleshed it out for us." I love that word. Did you intend to say that or did you mean "flushed" it out? fleshed excellent choice.

Alf, I did mean fleshed.

Faith, I can see no reason to fear this discussion will disintegrate into an argument over religious beliefs. The author has put only history into her tale. The historical background is absolutely accurate. The gods she describes and their methods of begging the intercession of the same and the sacrifices, etc., are exactly the way it was so far as the records and studies and archaeological finds show us. I can see no ground for dispute or any reason for any reader to be bent out of shape. A thing is a thing is a thing. Basically, this is the legend of a family who actually lived in real history, but told as a fictional memoir.

From an article in the Boston Globe, I gather that religious women of many faiths, including quite a few female pastors and Catholic sisters have welcomed this writing because, as a few have said, it's what the Bible might have been if written by women. So, I'm very interested in what tone or perspective those readers may be talking about. Since I have not begun to read, I can only imagine things like----inclusion instead of exclusion, maybe compassion in place of judgment, maybe noticing cooperation as well as lone achievement, maybe recognizing the strength of those who support others. Maybe less emphasis on rules and more emphasis on welfare of the heart. We'll see if any of my pre-read guesses have anything to do with my reaction to the book itself. And maybe this group won't see the book as some of the female pastors have.

I believe I do see the book in the same way they do, Betty. But I am well into it now.

The Bible tells a story of MEN, with mention of women in passing or when it appears a woman is to blame for something that has harmed men (as in Eve being blamed for the exile from Eden). But we do not get to KNOW the women. We really don't know their stories at all, and especially not from their perspective. This book is all about getting to know those women whose names are listed, but of whom we know NOTHING else except the names of their male sons.

I was just thinking...maybe it's none of the above... maybe it's simply including stories of women's lives. Just telling about them in greater detail.

We were posting at the same time, MaryPage.

It is all about the women, Betty. This time it is the men who are peripheral to the story. They are there, complete with their names; but only as needed to fill in the story of the women, and in the main of Dinah, who is telling the story all the way through.

If I might interject my thinking....I this this story needs to be separated from the Bible. If we don't, we can get all tangled up in comparisons, interpretations, and differences. This author took a vignette out of a written story and has drawn a basically non-religious picture of a family in that time and place.

What religion is mentioned is primarily that of what was practiced in that day, and it was neither Judeo nor Christian. But the story is not one of religion, which is why it needs to stand completely outside of the focus of the Bible. For those of us who follow a bible-based religion, our lessons and interpretations of the Biblical story of Dinah and her family must come from that. But this book is fiction, historical fiction, based on the author's best research and about some characters who appear in another piece of literature. I don't think we need to - or in honesty can afford to - mix them together.

When I started reading this book, the first thing I did was run to the Old Testament and read the story of Dinah. I remembered all about Jacob and Esau and Rebecca and Leah (I thought) but I sure didn't remember anything about Dinah and I wanted to see what was there. My initial reaction was to be a little taken aback at what I perceived were the liberties being taken by the author -- but then my rational self said, "OK, stupid. This is a piece of fiction Diamant is writing. She is not putting it forth as a biblical commentary and as fiction, she can make up anything she pleases to make a good story!" I had a good laugh at myself.

I think this is one of the most powerful books I have ever read. I believe every woman should read it. I believe there have been strong women in every culture, even in patriarchial societies. Although the book was loaned to me, I told my friend I was going to re-read it with this group. I am sure I will find oh so much more in it than I did the first time.

Hello everyone. I have the book and will be participating. May miss the first week, but I'll be around. I have started reading and really like it so far.

Maryal

Marypage, Betty, I was only positing a possibility. I read the book as a novel. I held no preconcieved ideas because I didnt read the critic and ads etc. I was entranced by the way these women lived in the sister-wife relationship. It has always been something of a joke in my family of four sisters. When we were little kids we said we wanted the same husband so we would never have to leave each other. In this book I could see the reality of the relationships. I did compare the devestation wrought on all because of the Men's Patriarchial Need to control the only sister and to ruin everyones life because of their envy and hate of the interloper who was Dinahs love. I have read many books of the ancient gods and goddess,' the way they were an intrigal part of the peoples lives. I always have to laugh when I read about Hathor and the temples with the Horns of Cows and I thought is that why we use an Oath "HOLY COW'. Maryal in highschool I had a literature teacher who gave me a deep appreciation for the old storys of Greece and Rome plus the Middle Ages. We covered a lot in one year and since I did not get to complete highschool in a regular school it was a good thing I had Ms. Frank who instilled that need to search out the source of things read and how to research to fill out a line of reading. Of course I get side tracked. When I read the "RED TENT" I couldn't help thinking of the familiar gods of the American Indians. Faith

Gail T, I can certainly understand how you feel and I suspect there will be others in our group (and elsewhere) who will feel much more comfortable thinking of The Red Tent as a story of fiction that has little or no connection to the Bible. I don't feel as you do, but the reason I so easily understand your point is that some people I love would quickly shake their heads yes at what you wrote.

I'm guessing that it will be the interesting history of the era that will make it comfortable for lots of us with differing perspectives to be able to read a book of historical fiction and discuss it from those different perspectives. Probably more than in other book discussions (I'm talking to myself here), we'll have to honor each other's ideas and thoughts, knowing that from time to time that how we think differently may sound like hogwash to others.

What I'm really looking forward to is learning about the history of women's lives during that time and I understand that the author has really done her homework to gather documentation of how people lived then. So, the setting, the land, the resources, the families of the time---I can't wait to start reading. Part of the reason I'm so enjoying Isabel Allende's novel, Daughter of Fortune, is that I get to discover more about how people lived in the 1850s (a British girl raised in Chile goes to California in 1848). I love Jane Austen's books because I get to eavesdrop on the era's complex social relationships, even if the characters are fictional.

Anyway, this is just one opinion. Others may feel differently. I was hoping we could sort of stay loose, trust each other, not think in terms of discussion restrictions, put some faith in Charlie to keep us on the strait and narrow (did you know, by the way, that this word strait isn't like a straight line but it means "difficult"--a difficult path, not easy, see this weird person that I am still remembers a reference or two. I was going to say heathen, but I can't spell it.)

Now look, if I can behave, anything is possible.

Strict, rigorous, narrow, tight, difficult----I just looked up the word strait. It actually means narrow! So, that's where the expression comes from. See, my life has already changed---I'm looking up biblical expressions---and I haven't even started reading yet.

Gail: Well said! I also ran for my bible before I even opened the cover of the Red Tent. I have a contrary nature and thought "oh boy, this oughtta be good" everyone into a religious fervor arguing over violation vs. love and I wanted to be ready . What I found was a well crafted, complex story of women we have heard about all of our lives. I never honestly thought about them as female; wives, mothers, lovers with strong emotional attachments and desires. This book has made me want to delve further into more of these women; perhaps Ruth, Mary, Mary Magdeline. "Jesus Christ Superstar" brought many of these characters to life, on stage. I don't believe it's heretical or blasphemous at all, it's enjoyable. If we read and discuss this story as a novel, women everywhere will love it & participate.

OOps, sorry. I missed those last 4 posts. Bettys right. What fun! We will just all trust one another, in love and comraderie. Has anyone here ever read "She who Remembers?" This story reminded me so much of these indian folk stories carried on by the women of the tribes.

Women did not used to be authors anywhere near to the extent that men did for the very simple reason that no one saw any reason to educate women except in the homemaking skills.

All of the writers (and most of the readers) were men, and at first they were principally religious men. They dismissed women as being of any interest as people. It was men who ran the world and made the news and Were the news. How could anyone (from their point of reference) POSSIBLY be interested in who these women were? They were of no interest; they were just for procreation. They were valued according to the sons they produced.

betty - Quite an interesting check list of possible perspectives to look for as we read this book. Thanks for that. And this shall be our credo: "Probably more than in other book discussions...we'll have to honor each other's ideas and thoughts..." Let's do that - let's make a special effort, because we've got quite an interesting, diverse, and growing group here. Welcome to you all!

Gail T - I appreciate your thoughts and concerns. One of the most difficult things to sort out sometimes in novels that use historical events or the lessons of theology as handed down to us as their starting point is the intent of the author and the legitimavy of that intent. I found it fascinating that Diamant actually told this story and interpreted it based on long held and traditional Jewish rabbinical techniques.<see midrash>

One of the things I remember being taught is that the Isrealites(sp)(can't spell tonight or any night lol)were so antiwomem was because the other religions around had so much sex tied up with their rituals they pushed in the opposite direction.

Marypage in our American Indian culture women at least in most tribes were definitely "Authors" They told the stories that taught.They had to instill in very little girls all this knowledge of how to survive and do it by the time the girls were 12 or so. Just like in the ancient tribes in the mideast these wormen were into the tent and then married as soon as possible.. Grandmothers were so important to them in Cherokee Nation they called the Sun Grandmother Sun and Greeted her every morning. it was a ritual. Without grandmothers tales culture would not have remained stable enough to keep babies alive and then where would you be..I think it is so easy to forget what it was like not only 5000 years ago, but 10,000 years ago when the goddess was still holding sway. I wish we could read more of the old pictographs from that long ago. Faith

Charlie: Russell Baker wrote a huge book a couple of years ago about John Brown (of "John Brown's Body Lies a Mouldering in the Grave" fame)called "Cloudsplitter." It was historical fiction, of course, but the story Baker wrote was SO fascinating that it was hard for me to keep it in my mind that it was NOT the entire truth. Upon finishing it I had the sense that "Wow! now I know all about John Brown and his family and the reasons why he was the way he was." And of course what Baker did was take some known facts and some facts he researched out and wove a wonderful fictional story about that period of time and the characters who inhabited it. It would be wonderful if all our history was so readable and could be learned so easily....but alas, the facts of history sometime come up as dry as bones. The mostI could say for sure about the truth of Baker's story - and Diamant's as well - is that "it could have been."

Faith: Yes! That is why I asked if anyone had ever read "She Who Remembers." I passed that one on to my daughters, much in the same way as I want to pass on The Red Tent. She Who Rememebers is a story of Kuwani, from the Anasazzi indians, in the American southwest. Kuwani's story reflects tribal life of the Anasazzis akin to Dinah and her story. Kiwani was charged with the responsibility of teaching young girls secrets of being a woman. Secrets that only women were to know and acknowledge. It is an excellent story written by Linda Lay Schuler (sp?) The Am . southwest comes to life in this novel as the holy land does in Red Tent.

GailT - You liked the book I take it? I had wanted to read that but SarahT here (I think) said she did't care for it and so I never got around to it. Your point is well taken. On the other hand it would stand us all in good stead to keep the same rigorous thinking in mind when reading what is supposed to be official "history." Much of it is myth and self-serving fantasy.

This book reminds me of the excellent job Jean Auel did with The Clan of The Cave Bear, The Valley of The Horses, The Mammoth Hunters, and The Plains of Passage. All fiction, but she with degrees in the subject matter and heaps of research; all plausible.

Same thing with Robert Graves and his I, Claudius. Outstanding scholarship, but pure fiction otherwise.

Bare bones of history fleshed out for us.

MaryPage---Because you mentioned I, Claudius, I thought I'd tell you that PBS is rerunning the entire Claudius series, 13 episodes in all, on June 17 and June 18. Channel 22, from six until somewhere around midnight both nights. I'm just posting the information because I plan to tape it and thought you might want to also.

I know, I know, You were talking about Robert Graves' books, I, Claudius and Claudius the God. I read those also and loved them. But the TV series was one of the best that PBS has ever had on so I'm letting you know just in case you are interested.

In case anyone is worried about the Bible being the source for the background of this story, don't be. John Milton took a couple of chapters from Genesis and created Paradise Lost. There's a long tradition of using a Bible story as a frame and filling in important things like motivation, character, details, connections. So far I have noticed a number of Mesopotamian gods and goddesses, some named in the Bible and others not, but all of them true to ancient history.

Maryal

Maryal, I have seen I, Claudius and adored it, but will look forward to catching it again. I think I have seen most of it twice. It is easier to watch the second time, as the first time the explicit evil made evident by the excellent actors puts uncomfortable sensations curling up and down the spine. The second time around I was just applauding their portrayals, without any repeat of the taste of horror experienced previously.

Thank you for telling me that MPT will be carrying it.

Okay, I'be finally got the book, so forgive me for coming in a little late in this prelude to the real discussion. So far it looks interesting. I must tell you I had qualms about entering this discussion at all because I was afraid it would turn out to be a religious free-for-all, but I can see nothing of that here so far.

Lorrie

Lorri---Welcome, welcome. I've read the first hundred pages of The Red Tent and am enjoying it. You don't have to worry about being behind since we haven't started yet!

We begin on July 1, and no religious free-for-all in here. This is fiction we are discussing. Historical fiction of a sort because Diamant does use a number of free-floating threads in Genesis. Where there is no motivation or story behind the story, she provides one. I just finished teaching a course on The Bible and Literature, and Diamant's careful research is most interesting to me.

Maryal

Charlie, I've been going back a few posts, and I see a mention of a program about "The Lost Tribes of Israel." Any chance of getting on that list? I've heard this subject mentioned somewhere else, and it sounds fascinating.

And thanks, Maryl. Also thank you for bringing my attention to the fact that there's going to be another showing of "I, Claudius." sure hope I can get it here!

Lorrie

Miss Lorrie: I am so happy that you are going to join us. No it wont be a religious free for all, not in the least! Its a wonderful "chick" book as my husband calls them. Truly a great read for any woman.

ALF---I'm in chat. Where are you?

Well no free for all, I may join, will look for the book hopefully tomorrow. Ginger.

I have the tape and have placed a mailing rotation up above. If you are interested in viewing the tape, just let me know. It'll only cost you a little postage to mail it on. Thanks.

Barbara: Send me your snail mail and I'll get the tape out to you next week.

Barbara, I'm going to send you my snail mail address so you can put it somewhere (don't be like me and forget where you put it!) for when you are through with the "Lost Tribes of Israel" tape. Take your time, please, there's absolutly no hurry!

Lorrie

Charlie, did you find the tape as fascinating as I did?

MaryPage - Yes, that was a good program. Remember that little ritual the Lemba did on remembering their roots? Just fascinating. Thanks for recommending it.

Barbara - It's off to you tomorrow. Enjoy.

Take a look at the links box up above. I have added an article that I read in the Boston Globe earlier this year. That was the first time I had ever heard of this novel. What is really unique about this book is exactly one of the points of the article - this is really a book that has grown by word of nouth. Just what happend here at B&L. Please read it. I think you'll find it interesting.
Charlie

Charlie---Interesting article. I enjoyed it. The important idea to remember as we discuss is that this book is a good example of midrash which has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Many of the stories in the Bible are short and have gaps in them. One Midrashic reading of the death of Sarah suggests that she may very well have been greatly affected by Abraham's obedience to God's command to sacrifice Isaac. In the verse just after the end of the story of the near-sacrifice of Issac, we are told that Sarah died. There is no connection between the stories in the Bible other than that one follows the other.

Maryal

Great link, Charlie.

My computer has been off line as I installed a new faster modem which didnt work. Well after a trip back to the store with the computer in hand so to speak, we got it installed and when i brought it back home it still wouldnt dial my isp so I called them and they gave me a new number...I am trying to use it (the new modem and new number) problem is it kicks me off line all the time. Well back to the phone. I want to be fixed all up for July 1. It will be hot in my town today so must cook now or never. Faith

Oh I am a happy camper. I decided to buy this after I returned it to the library. I want both of my daughters to read this story. It is here (with The Hobbitt) which my grandson wants to read with me. All I can rmemeber about that one, is I didn't like it. When a 9 yr. old asks to read it with me like we did the Harry Potter books, what's a gal to do????? I'll learn to like it.

The prologue of The Red Tent is masterful.

Hi, Andrea...

Betty - Are you still "holding off"? I think I will start this next weekend. I want it fresh.

Charlie, great idea!! It seems like such a long time until July! I haven't quite finished the book yet, but I think it's fun to comment on chapters that most people are reading as we go along. That is, if no one gives away the ending.

Really good reading so far!

Lorrie

Well, Charlie, I had just started reading the book, but a post from MaryPage caught my attention and sent me off to the bookshelf in search of a book I love---and momentarily interrupted my reading. MaryPage wrote about what a relatively short time women have been authors or even the subjects of male author's books.

So, I stopped to reread (4th time?) Writing a Woman's Life by Carolyn Heilbrun (an English professor at Columbia), possibly my favorite of all books. The first sentence of the introduction: "There are four ways to write a woman's life: the woman herself may tell it, in what she chooses to call an autobiography; she may tell it in what she chooses to call fiction; a biographer, woman or man, may write the woman's life in what is called a biography; or the woman may write her own life in advance of living it, unconsciously, and without recognizing or naming the process."

Heilbrun identifies 1970 for biographies and 1973 for autobiographies as the turning points in writing women's lives. As of these dates, she believes, women's lives were beginning to be written as lived. Pain and anger, among other things, were no longer left out of the telling. Sanitized, romanticized views of women's lives began to fade. More women were writing, period. More women were writing about women's lives. The field of biography changed. Men who wrote biographies of women were influenced.

Toward the end of the book's introduction, Heilbrun writes that she wishes "to suggest new ways of writing the lives of women, as biographers, autobiographers, or, in the anticipation of living new lives, as the women themselves."

A fascinating part of the book for me is Heilbrun's belief that narrative, whether written or lived, has heretofore been in the language of men. Men's words, meanings. She argues for a new narrative in a new language when writing (living) women's lives. I only understood this in an intellectual way all these years---until in another discussion (Allende's Daughter of Fortune) the word "victim" was discussed. Our posts were so full of words, but without any "ah-ha's!", without any satisfaction. Then I thought of Heilbrun's wish for new words and wondered if I'd understood for the first time.

Now, I'm ready to take up Red Tent where I left off.

I think this is very interesting. I have questions but don't want to put them here. Don't want to put them in e-mail...others may want to get into this. Where to go??

....well, there's this great cafe that overlooks the San Francisco Bay, serves great coffee....

Sheesh - a woman from the Seattle area suggesting coffee in San Francisco...

I still believe quite fiercely, if you will, that the PRIMARY reason women were not heard from very much prior to the 20th century was that they WERE NOT EDUCATED. There were some immensely famous exceptions, but in every case they Had been taught their letters, much against the culture of the times.

And those who had educations rarely had any careers to choose from other than nursing, teaching or homemaking. They suffered dreadful put-downs from the men in their families and communities if they dared "speak up" on any subject. Finally, despite any ability to read, they were very much encouraged to stick to the Bible and "women's books" for reading material. Some men even refused outright to allow their wives or daughters to read the newspapers for fear this would contaminate their sweet little feminine minds or unduly shock and horrify their sensibilities. I'm absolutely serious here; this is the way it was. Finally, hard work with no leisure time except to fall into exhausted sleep was what the vast majority of women experienced in their lives. If they lived long enough to enjoy some respite, there was, for those who had calloused hands, no money for eyeglasses even for those who owned the ability to read. The few rich of those times, and I am speaking of a world mostly divided between the rich and the poor, had been raised into a pleasantly unproductive world of self indulgence, social gatherings, hostessing and gossip.

As I have said, yes, there were exceptions. But what I have stated here was The Rule.

betty, Mary and evryone else!!! - These are very interessting commments and worth pusuing further. I have questions. I have had an annex set up - outside the Red Tent as it were - which will remain alongside The Red Tent itself as long as its up. The purpose of this discussion will be a place to meet and follow paths of inquiry that may seem far afield of the "book" discussion. Feel free to meet there - or suggest an idea be kicked around there separately. I'd like to take the quesions recently raised here over there now: specifically, is there a separate (narrative)language for men? and what are the implications of that suggestion?

Did the Bookmobile crash? I was in it, and suddenly I was kicked out of it, and now I can't get back in. It seems to have disappeared.

I got my copy of "The Red Tent" yesterday, and am already about halfway through it due to a long bout of insomnia in the wee hours this morning. I'm not sure, however, that I can take it seriously unless I paste something over the cover.

My daughter (turning 30 this year) has a friend from high school days whom I'll call Joni. Joni has always been prone to melodrama and self-importance.

When I took "The Red Tent" out of the shipping box and saw the picture on the front cover, I laughed out loud. Last night I showed the book to my daughter and she exclaimed, "My God, that's Joni!" This morning I showed it to my 11-year-old grandson, who has known Joni all his life, and he said the same thing. She could have posed for the picture, and we have all seen her with exactly that expression -- put on, of course!

Is Joni's middle name Dinah?

I'm intrigued by the reviews of this book. Do you think someone who doesn't know the Bible very well would enjoy it?

Charlie - what a memory. It WAS I that didn't like Russell Banks' Cloudsplitter - which surprised me since I loved The Sweet Hereafter. Don't take my word for it, though.

Betty - is that San Francisco cafe the Buena Vista, perchance?

SarahT, yes, I believe that anyone of any religion, including those not Jewish or Christian and totally unfamiliar with the Bible, would enjoy this book.

It is set in the early, early history of the Middle East. From all that is known to us of those days, this tale has been spun using real names of presumably real people. There is much religious based supersitition of many different cultures deeply imbued in many of the characters in the book, just as would have been true. But this is in No Way a book of propaganda or religion. It is a fictional history, and the history is as good as it gets, given the little we know and the fact that much of what we know was handed down by word of mouth long before it was set to paper. People used to memorize their ancestry, generation by generation, as taught by their elders, so that the names would not be forgotten.

The most fascinating thing, to me, about this book is that it has made me visualize the 12 sons of Israel (Jacob) and appreciate all of the history that has occurred since this almost pre-history we are getting here.

Anyone, even the peoples and races of the world who worship different gods and have different heritages, cannot but appreciate learning the heritage of this culture and time.

Especially the women.

MaryPage, I don't think it's really Joni. We don't see her all that often these days, but I'm sure if she had posed for a book cover we would have heard about it. And heard about it. Ad infinitum. Ad nauseam <G>.

I agree that it isn't at all necessary to be familiar with the Bible to enjoy this book, but it will make you curious. I have to go back now and revisit some of the other stories about these characters that appear in the Bible and elsewhere as well. Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat comes to mind!

I've only read a few pages of the book. My curiosity for the original story in the Bible had been low, so I had not read it until your posts made me curious. Oh, my goodness, what a woman-less story, but intriguing anyway, tons of characters, inter and intra-family divisions, rape or not?, shades of Romeo and Juliet?, maybe not. What a perfect holy and hole-y outline (full of holes). No wonder Daimant picked Dinah and this family to write about. Not once in my life have I opened the Bible to read from a viewpoint of literature. Wonder what else I'm missing.

Betty, I am a Unitarian-Universalist, and since I started traveling a lot on business in the mid-1980's I have been pretty much a dropout from church attendance (although I do send in my pledge check faithfully every month). As a result, my grandkids (who live with me) have not had much exposure to religion. A year or so ago I bought my grandson (now 11) a copy of Pearl S. Buck's "The Story Bible," which retells the Bible stories in readable, narrative form. I told him, you have to read these stories, because if you don't know them, you won't know what people are talking about or what the writers you read are writing about. All of our literature is permeated with Biblical references and if you are not familiar with them, you simply aren't literate.

The book is broken down into readable chapters and I think he has read most of it. Every once in a while he asks me a question about something in it, and then of course I have to scramble to find the answer! I do think it is a very good way to study the Bible as literature.

Another wonderful study of the Bible as literature is Jack Miles's Pulitzer Prize-winning "God: A Biography" (Knopf, 1995). Miles undertakes to tell the story of God as he appears as a character in the Tanakh, the Old Testament taken in the Hebrew order. That involves revisiting the stories of Abraham and Sarah (Abram and Sarai), Jacob and Esau, the sons of Jacob, and so on. I recommend Miles's book highly and plan to re-read it (or parts of it) in conjunction with "Red Tent."

Sarah T.---Oh yes, I think a person without much background in the Bible would like this book. Diamant has done the work for you and her scholarship is good. She borrows names of gods and places from the Bible as well as providing others from ancient history.

I have just finished this book, and I really enjoyed it.

MaryPage---In case you miss my message over in Greatest Generation, I, Claudius starts tonight, six to twelve EDT, channel 22.

Maryal

Don't worry, Maryal. I missed both of your messages, but it is now after midnight and I am turning on the computer to check posts before retiring. Just finished watching 6 hours of I, Claudius. Talk about History! Enjoyed it just as much seeing it again, and even more for not having to wait a whole week between episodes. Took a nap this afternoon to get ready for it. More about it later.

But you do not have to leave me more messages. I fully intend to nap again tomorrow and then stay up for SEVEN hours of I, Claudius!

MaryPage---Good heavens, you have more endurance than I do. Tomorrow night they start at FIVE.

Maryal

Dear Cousin Maryal,

I am up and at it and planning to go down for a nap around 2:00 p.m. and have the tv on by 4:55 p.m. Have plenty to eat and drink and will watch ALL SEVEN hours of I, CLAUDIUS.

Maryal & I have just exchanged family lines as a result of something going on over in The Greatest Generation, and we are 11th cousins! Seriously, we share a common ancestor. When we started the exchange, I was afraid there would not be the same Number of generations involved and we would be "once removed" or something. But no, we are precisely ELEVENTH cousins! Sounds lucky to me!

And Maryal, from now on I expect to be served First over in Canterbury Tales! Fill up my stein with mead, Harry!

Cousins!! How wonderful. I wondered if you two would follow up and check out the connection.

Betty, in the long run we are all cousins. This has just been a giggle for Maryal and me.

MaryPage---I am amazed to find out our degree of cousinhood. I can't even get past the "once removed" thing. Clearly you come from the mathematically endowed part of the family!

I'll have to talk to Harry about the mead. Harry says he's sure he isn't related to you.

Maryal

MaryPage and Maryal, how neat to find out you are related and the exact degree! Of course, all humans are cousins if you go back far enough (to Eve, either Mitochondrial or Adamand, depending on your assumptions <G>), but it is a lot of fun to trace the details.

I, for example, am a distant cousin of TV journalist Paula Zahn. I forget the exact degree of relationship, but my cousin Wendy (first, once removed), who did the family genealogy back in the 1960's, knows.

Recently I ran across a Jaques genealogy database online. My late husband's brother and one of his sisters are sporadically working on their father's line (alas, none of them is a Mormon, so this will be relatively slow going ... every family needs at least one Mormon cousin to keep the genealogical project on track!), so I was very interested to find this database, and sent the URL on to them. However, alas, none of OUR Jaqueses are in it. The astonishing thing is that MY father's line is in it - his grandmother and grandfather, her ancestors two generations back, and some of their descendants, not including my father or me, but including the Mormon cousin who worked with Wendy on the family genealogy, and his children and grandchildren! I have NO idea what the connection is with the Jaques line, but obviously it is not my marriage to my husband, because neither of us is in it, nor is his father or grandfather, nor his uncle Lee, the wildlife artist. I think the link must somehow be associated with my great-grandmother, perhaps from her mother's line (Searl). Anyway, it's VERY interesting, and one of my projects after I retire in 2001!

Hi, all. My puter is in boxes ready for my big move this weekend, so I'm using my cousin's to see what's going on. Although I have read a lot of the bible over many years of churchgoing, my knowledge of the 12 sons of Jacob was very sanitized and superficial. Joseph and the Tech. DreamCoat - as well as the wonderful stained glass windows of the 12 sons I saw in Israel - rounded out my imagine of them. In reading The Red Tent, and then going back and re-reading the Bible passage pertaining to Dinah, I can see that I was woefully lacking in my understanding. I will never again think of these brothers in the same way again, tho keeping in mind that the characterization in Red Tent was purely fictional. Just goes to show you how much we presume we know!

Did anyone see on PBS last evening Joseph and His Amazing Technacolor Dream Coat What was truly amazing is they were all there, all the men but alas no Dinah. In addition it may have all been in fun but did you notice the only raison d'être for the woman was sex except that they used a woman for the narrator...maybe she was supposed to be Dinah???

One aggravation about that show was that they made Judah black, and historically and Biblically it was DAN who was black, while Gad and Asher were quite brown.

The tribes of Judah and Joseph were the founders of Southern Palestine, the portion called Judea (named for Judah). They were the 2 tribes who were Not lost.

The tribes of the other 10 brothers were the founders of Northern Palestine, the portion called Israel (named for Jacob). These were the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, because they were conquered and exiled.

Damn! I didn't know that was on. I am so sorry that I missed it. does anyone know of rerun scheduling?

Alf in our area it is to be repeated Sunday evening at 5:00.

Thanks Barb, I shall be in transit at that time.

You know what? I'm reading a "modern" version of the Bible, and I keep thinking of that huge, gold-leafed Family Bible we used to have, with gorgeous pictures and page after page of spaces for the family tree. And in the New Testament everything Jesus said was in red print. How I miss those thee's and thou's, and begot and begat! This is progress?

Lorrie

It just makes for easier reading this way Lorrie. I still have the family "gold-leafed" Bible that I occasionally "leaf" thru.

I remember my Great grandmothers bible. It had its own table. About 20 inchs by 12 that bible was. I couldnt lift it if I wanted to. I would guess I was only 10 last time I saw it. It was St. James version of course, with all those fantastic pictures. The text was illuminated beautifully. A leather binding that was cordova I think they call that color. It had gold ribbons for a book marker and the family Birth and Death register.I remember my great grandmother showing me my mothers name and her childrens name. I thought it was wonderful to see my name in her beautiful old fashion scrip in that Bible. Years later my older sister searched by letter, with all cousins to see who had that bible We have never located it. I tried again not long ago. No one seems to know who took it. Faith

In order to really research this wonderful book, we should have a Jewish version of the Book of Genesis. I believe it differs in some ways.

Mary Page: At the risk of showing my appalling ignorance, where can one find a different version of Genesis, rather tan the St. James version I'm reading? In order to get the Jewish version is it necessary to look for it in the Torah? I honestly don't know. I would like to read a different interpretation before we start the discussion of this excellent book. Would anyone out there know?

Lorrie

Just finished the book tonight - I cryed and cryed for the characters - for myself oh oh oh - I hope we could talk about this book just as a story of woman rather than trying to turn to the Bible to stengthen the story.

This is like a historical novel but it so much a story of woman, their power or lack of power and the way they lived divided and yet, as a unit. Their pain seeing their children take sides even choosing among the woman who they prefered. The incrediable soul searing discriptions of births and mother child love and the limited place woman seemed to have in the society, their only purpose seeming to be vessals for seeds to produce children. And yet, the love and loyalty they did have for one another and the life they wove and lost. The differences in how woman respected their bodies and then how differently the men reacted seemingly because of how they secretly respected their bodies.

As a catholic, I did not grow up with Bible study and had no idea that Jacob was so awful, as were so many of the men. I didn't realize the Bible included stories of people that believed in idols and I cannot understand why these people would be revered today by people reading about these horrible people. Can you imagine a leader demanding an entire community alter their religious practices never mind the trick and horror afterwards. Things they did to each other in the name of God were an outrage.

The Egyptions seemed more reasonable people then the greedy, waring, self-rightous male decendents of Terah and Imma. No, I would rather not have to honor these people by discussing them but hope we could center ourselves around the woman.

Barbara, nothing has changed. You say the things they did to each another in the name of God was an outrage.

Most of the conflicts of mutual butchery going on all over our planet today are over religion.

I believe I read recently that there are 35 such wars going on right now! Men fight more over their interpretation of God than over any other issue.

We can all absolutely agree that our interest here is in the History of the times, and not to exchange or argue any religious dogma. Sticking just to the history, the King James version and all of the Protestant versions of the histories here seem to have a slightly different geneaology of who was the son of whom. This and the timing of the events (i.e., which came before and which came after, and so forth) appear to show slight differences.

I believe this Jewish writer has done deep and careful research for the historical background and true life persons in her story. Obviously, she cannot have researched our principal character, Dinah, as the Bible says absolutely nothing further about her. We do not learn whether she lives or dies after her brothers carry her away. This is the whole point of her story: to tell what Dinah's life could have been with as much background reality as humanly possible. I believe she succeeded admirably and beautifully. I loved the book and have sent it to my namesake granddaughter, so that she may love it as well.

My suggestion about researching the Jewish version of Genesis, or the Torah, was to discover if the geneaology and timelines might have been translated with slight differences all of those long years ago when committees of men produced the St. James Version of the Bible. In between these, there was the Catholic version, which is longer, larger, and has more books than the St. James Version. There are literally hundreds of versions of the Bible. My guess is that this author has taken her lines directly from the original.

If you look at the family lines in the very front of The Red Tent, and compare them with your St. James Version, you will see what I mean. Or, if you have another version of the Bible on hand, you may or may not find differences. I want to know purely out of curiosity, and not for any purposes of discussion of religion other than to relate the actual realities of what occurred historically.

As for the 12 men, the sons of Israel, doubtless they had their human responses just as all men of today do. The times were brutal, basic, and very, very primitive. They did not own the reason that comes from acquiring literacy and learning. They were totally unschooled and living by their instincts. They did not even eat with, converse with, have the experience of women other than for sex. So it came about that they evolved in their ways and we in ours. This book surely does illuminate the sisterhood of our sex, does it not?

These 12 men were actually the fathers of a Nation of 12 tribes. Jesus Christ came from the tribe of Judah. I like to think I am "of the tribe of Joseph", as Susan in the later Anne of Green Gables books used to say.

The history of these tribes, the 10 who were conquered, exiled and "lost" in later centuries and found again in the 20th, are a separate and different fascination.

Barbara, like you, in the Catholic schools I attended, I've found that much more attention was given to the New Testament, and precious little study to the Old. Re-reading some of these Biblical tales is engrossing, like opening a favorite book again.

Mary Page: I found your post to be very intriguing, and I'm going to follow that suggestion about comparing versions of Genesis to see what differences there are, if any. Good comments.

Lorrie

Personally I could care less who begot whom even though Dinah was interested at the end as to which niece or nephew was the child of which brother or cousin. As for Joseph, to me he was a wimp.

Where my lineage is connected ???? That would be an assumption that these 12 tribes were the sole populatators of the world. Not to say any other myth story of any other tribe is any better or less barbaric but at least they have the decency to say it was a myth or creation story and not hold it as sacred as many do call the Bible. My outrage holding all this sacred is with all Bible centered religions. I see more humanity in the story of Buddha or the principles of Tao which is historically older than the Bible stories. Gads! Do not mean to put up the red cape to those of you with found memories of reading the bible but this is a revelation to me that is flooring me.

Well, I'm having the best old time reading this book and the posts. I'm surprised, surprised to feel so neutral and open and where in the world is my usual quick-frown when religious beliefs are the subject. Will wonders never cease. Maybe what's helping is that there are so many backgrounds, so many interests----I love the variety.

"steady as she goes", betty.

I went to Catholic Grade School and High School, even had a little Catholic College. However, I have become very broadminded when it comes to religion. To me, God is Love.

I also didn't get much Old Testament training while I was young. But I have taken some Bible classes, read and taught myself about some of the Old Testament.

What I liked about The Red Tent was the female prespective. I am interested in Women's History . So I see The Red Tent more as an idea of how western society has come to view women, than a claim for one religion over another.

Tapes came, tapes came - Lorrie I will try to watch tonight so I can get them off into the mail tomorrow but worst case, I'll get them off Wednesday.

I loved this book and said to Charlie, before we started, that I thought it would be a good book to do here on SN. We had a women's retreat based on it here in the Catholic parish in Gahanna. I did not attend but understand that it went very well. I also saw the Lost Tribes program and really enjoyed it. But, like Barbara, I agree that much of this is our myth or tradition.

Barbara, have you read "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell. Veeeeerrrry interesting! And, he was a cradle Catholic. They say that when he taught at Sarah Lawrence College, his classes were always hard to get into as everyone wanted to attend at least one while in school there. I saw the "Power of Myth" with Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell(he died shortly thereafter) on PBS in the 1980's and you can still get it at our library here. I also have read the book and have my own copy. He makes you see and understand all of our differents myths or traditions by which we live.

Ann, I have all of Campbell's books and I taped all of the programs of him with Bill Moyers. And I have a granddaughter who graduated from Sarah Lawrence, where she says he is still much revered.

I am So glad you recommended The Red Tent. I have finished it and sent it on to that very granddaughter.

I totally agree the Bible is mostly myth. I do believe there are Some facts in it, such as names of people and places. Wasn't it, for instance, just a few years ago that they actually found the walls that once encircled Jericho, and also found that they had, indeed, been breached?

Again, Ann, thanks for introducing me to such a wonderful tale of the lives of ancient women.

Oh, Mary, I didn't recommend it until CharlieW asked if anyone thought it good and would be a good discussion. It was his idea all along.

I jealous of you having those tapes. I didn't even know that it was not going to be on again but I do know that it has been in the library, at least, the one in Atlanta. Haven't looked here in Gahanna!

Ann, the tapes can be ordered from literally dozens of video tape catalogs, including those on line.

"Searching for Jesus," a special narrated by Peter Jennings and bible scholars is on ABC right this minute. Very interesting.

Betty, I saw the Second hour of The Search for Jesus on ABC with Peter Jennings. The first hour I was watching the 1900 House on PBS. I would like to see the hour of SFJ I missed, and am hoping they will repeat it. Both shows were excellent. I think we are going to hear a Lot of commentary about the SFJ!

Charlie, i wanted to thank you for the link to the suggested questions for Group Study of The Red Tent. I personally will find them very helpful for when we begin this discussion Saturday.

Lorrie

Oh, dear, we are starting on Saturday? Oh dear said the rabbit! I am leaving for a family reunion that day and won't be back until either the 3rd or the 7th. Oh, well, I" will"l be using Charlie's links, won't I?

Ok enough is enough - so it is tomorrow that we are supposed to say our piece-- well stone me, shoot me, whatever, I am feeling irreverent today and I plan on sharing a few quips to the questions emailed in reference to discussing this book.

1. Read Genesis 34 and discuss how THE RED TENT changes your perspective on Dinah’s story and also on the story of Joseph that follows. Does THE RED TENT raise questions about other women in the Bible? Does it make you want to re-read the Bible and imagine other untold stories that lay hidden between the lines?: No It does not encourage me to re-read the Bible. There is enough female abuse currently in this world, nation, my community that needs understanding, help and work without removing myself from real action to fantasize about the abuses of 4000 years ago!
2. Discuss the marital dynamics of Jacob’s family. He has four wives; compare his relationship with each woman?: What a sorry state of affairs-- the bee now male from flower to flower to flower-- and so the earth was propegated with humans. They did their job but as an example of husband and wife relations...sheesh!
3. What do you make of the relationships among the four wives?: Sheesh talk about a system that sets woman against woman and yet their nature is to love as sisters. What a mess. I guess no different than divorced couples that share the raising of children from prior marrages.
4. Dinah is rich in "mothers." Discuss the differences or similarities in her relationship with each woman.: The children all benefit as children often did that were raised in a community where there were lots of caring and nurturing adults. I lived close to my aunts and grandmothers. My memories are rich even though the rest of our family was in Fla. and Georgia. Maybe we were an island to ourselves being isolated from the rest of the family as Jacob was for so long.
6. Discuss Jacob’s role as a father. Does he treat Dinah differently from his sons? Does he feel differently about her? If so, how?: This is such a mute point to me-- he treated her and felt about her what most girl children learn is their place in a very patriarichel system. Even today although men are more involved with their daughters the real bonding is more often with the son.
7. Discuss Dinah’s twelve brothers. Discuss their relationships with each other, with Dinah, and with Jacob and his four wives. Are they a close family?: Oh yes close say I, as close as any dysfunctional family can ever be especially, as the males play "king of the Mountain" for control even if it means teasing little ones. One big riot of testosterone run amuck. Even as young boys hurting their mothers by sleeping in an favored Aunts tent! Like father like son, who is the light of my life tonight?

I know. y'all will say, but Barbara that was the way. Well fine but, if this Bible is supposed to help folks learn and adapt more loving behavior than why is all this stuff cherished. Saved as history I understand but, this Book is not shelved as a discourse in ancient history.
8. Female relationships figure largely in THE RED TENT. Discuss the importance of Inna, Tabea, Werenro, and Meryt.: Now this is the meat of the book not so much to discuss their importance since their story is as much a part of Dinah and what I see this story is about. To me the timeline and history is simply the skeleton to hang this story of woman on and to open to my conscious, my experiences and values that are are similar to their experiences and values.
9. In the novel, Rebecca is presented as an Oracle. Goddesses are venerated along with gods. What do you think of this culture, in which the Feminine has not yet been totally divorced from the Divine? How does El, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, fit into this?: Fit or not -- Why would they remember to pass on in a book as important to many as the Bible a character like Rebecca? She sets a whole house on itself by manipulating her children, one against the other, leaves her husband who we have no idea how he treated her and maybe she had good reason to leave but, we get the impression she leaves becuase of the damage she manipulated and betrayed not only her son but her husband as well. Sheesh I was annoyed the entire read of her and all her white vailed aids. Vailed indeed, I wonder if that gave them the opportunity to cringe behind her back?
10. Dinah’s point of view is often one of an outsider, an observer. What effect does this have on the narrative? What effect does this have on the reader?: For me it has the affect of observing and judging the behavior of those written about in this book.

I purposly left out of my quippy remarks number 5....

Childbearing and childbirth are central to THE RED TENT. How do the firtility childbearing and birthing practices differ from contemporary life? How are they similar? How do they compare with your own experiences as a mother or father?

I had some moments reading about some of the births and for that I will wait until tomorrow and share some of my insights that affected me deeply as a result of reading this book.

This from a 'Names & Faces' note in The Boston Globe:
Local writer Anita Diamant's sleeper bestseller continues to roll along. The Red Tent, a saga of the little-known biblical character Dinah, is about to go into its 12th printing; this time publisher Picador St. Martin's is betting big with a run of 100,000 copies, which puts the total number in print at over 350,000 copies. RenaissanceAudio has purchased rights to make it an audio book, due out in the fall. Movie interest continues to percolate.

Charlie, what an interesting movie that would make! I can visualize all kinds of current actors who would play those various roles so well! And I don't mean Charlton Heston!

Lorrie

Please, everyone, don't give anything away just yet! I'm just now winding down on reading "The Red Tent." I'll be the first to admit I've been goofing off!

Oh, Barbara, how interesting. Your comments of irritation (is that too strong?) are so far from my reactions. I mean, of course I had similar moments--but just moments. For me, this chapter after chapter of "how things were" for women (and you might say still are, in some ways) is somehow comforting. There it is, and there and there, I kept thinking, a credible telling of how IMBEDDED these roles are. Any of today's inequities have such deep, deep roots. Even from a practical perspective, like behavior habits and how difficult it is to "break" a habit, oh, my goodness, these "habits" have been practiced practically forever.

No, for me, books that minimize conditions of women, or even misconstrue conditions, are the ones that get to me----this book validates. At least it does for me. That might be why so many women's book groups have embraced it, I'm thinking.

But, this is so interesting to me, Barbara. Would you say that reading the reality of women's lives (then or now) touches your anger or irritation? For me, the MISSING reality in some books is what catches my attention. What I yearn for sometimes is to see an author "get it right." Tell how it really is. That's very satisfying to me.

Ok, I'm down on my knees. Would someone please email me the questions? And/or post them in the heading? Please?

I'm puzzled. Where did Barbara get the questions? What do I have to do to get them? As I recall, I said I'd like to be a part of this group...way back. Did I need to do something else?

oops.....those were questions Charlie sent to the 4 discussion leaders (Barbara one of them) from study group questions on this book. I wasn't left out....and you, either, Gail.

Thanks for the email explaining.

Betty my anger is that nothing has changed that much-- to discuss the ins and outs of the behavior in this story that I see so pregnant with betrayal, manipulation, one-upsmenship, injustice, control, dominating, overt outrageous behavior, violence to woman just because they are woman and to show them their low value, the banding together of the powerless and they building walls and distance between each other to keep from getting too close because the powerless cannot adequatly protect each other; this entire enviornment filled with withholding, blocking and diverting, accusing and blaming, undermining, ordering certain behavior-- discussing this seems futual-- I've been there, meaning I've discussed abusive behavior so many times and so many seem to yawn and trivialize the situation giving all kinds of rational why it is not something to really understand and do something to change.

So many, good honest caring men, and socialized woman have no clue. A recent TV special helped me understand that untill someone experiences the vulnerabilty of those being victimized there is a sense of not only being immune but superior to the victimized.

Being no good just because you are a girl or woman, treated not only with disrespect, being blocked from experienceing all we can be and also, being abused as well, many of us learn early in our lives.That fact when shared results in minimizing what we have to say about abuse to woman because folks are more comfortable believing there is an ax to grind. I also find minimizing and trivializing is one more social block towards maintaing de-Nile.

I guess I am past feeling the need to be validated. I am hurt and feel diminished when I read this stuff and feel closed off if I post about it.

I am sure there are untold woman who are not able to comprehend categories of abuse through conditioning. They may not even be able to identify the characteristics or indicators of abuse much less know the underlying dynamics or reasons why these obstacles to their personal power of mutuality and creativity exist. This story can open the eyes of many woman while it does validate some of their moments of sisterhood inside the current preverbial RED TENT if you would.

I am comfortable sharing the bits and peices of this book that enlarge on how those moments of womanhood in its most creative honor my soul and experience. And yes, I guess I am guilty of blocking certainly being hurt and not wnating to feel diminished I'm trivializing the dysfuntional behavior as not worth my time discussing.

The symbolic meaning for Tent or shelter is: All symbols of shelter are associated with the Great Mother, the archetypal feminine, in her protective aspect.

During this time in history there would not yet be modern dyes. Plants and earth were the stuff of pigments. Red today still having earth names like crimson lake and sienna. With that I looked for the symbolism of earth, red and brown.

Earth: The Great Mother, Mother Earth; the universal genetrix, the Nourisher; the Nurse, The Earth Mother is the universal archetype of inexhausible creativity and sustenance. The Earth and Heaven are matter and spirit. The Earth lodge is an omphalos, a cosmic centre, the circular floor depicts the earth, the domeshaped roof the heavens and the poles are the stars. The curruptible body, Earth was placed on the breast of the dead.

Red: The zenith of colour; represent the sun and all war gods. It is the masculine, active principle; fire, the sun, royalty, love, joy, festivity; passion; ardour; energy; ferocity; sexual excitement; health; strenght; blodd; blood-lust; anger; vengeance; martyrdom; fortitude; faith; magnanimity.
It can be the colour of the desert and calamity.
Staining or painting red depicts renewal of life.
Hebrew (Qabalism) symbolizes it to mean severity.
Roman the devine Gods' faces were often painted red. The colour of Apollo as solar and Mars as war.
Semitic the sun god Baal/Bel

Brown: The earth, spiritual death to the world, nenunciation, degradation

I had no idea everyone was not privey to the suggested questions - Here is the copy I have.

Hi. Here is a link to a Reading Group Guide for The Red Tent, although I am unable to get into it at the moment. Hope it still exists. At any rate I had copied/pasted iot out before, so here it is also. You may – or may not – find it usefull

stmartins

Intro to questions:

THE RED TENT tells the little-known Biblical story of Dinah, daughter of the patriarch Jacob and his wife, Leah. In Chapter 34 of the Book of Genesis, Dinah’s tale is a short, horrific detour in the familiar narrative of Jacob and Joseph.

Anita Diamant imaginatively tells the story from the fresh perspective of its women. In the Biblical tale Dinah is given no voice; she is the narrator of THE RED TENT, which reveals the life of ancient womanhood—the world of the red tent.

Reader of THE RED TENT will view the Book of Genesis in a new light. This guide can help spur creative discussions of the timeless story.

Discussion questions:

1. Read Genesis 34 and discuss how THE RED TENT changes your perspective on Dinah’s story and also on the story of Joseph that follows. Does THE RED TENT raise questions about other women in the Bible? Does it make you want to re-read the Bible and imagine other untold stories that lay hidden between the lines?

2. Discuss the marital dynamics of Jacob’s family. He has four wives; compare his relationship with each woman?

3. What do you make of the relationships among the four wives?

4. Dinah is rich in "mothers." Discuss the differences or similarities in her relationship with each woman.

5. Childbearing and childbirth are central to THE RED TENT. How do the firtility childbearing and birthing practices differ from contemporary life? How are they similar? How do they compare with your own experiences as a mother or father?

6. Discuss Jacob’s role as a father. Does he treat Dinah differently from his sons? Does he feel differently about her? If so, how?

7. Discuss Dinah’s twelve brothers. Discuss their relationships with each other, with Dinah, and with Jacob and his four wives. Are they a close family?

8. Female relationships figure largely in THE RED TENT. Discuss the importance of Inna, Tabea, Werenro, and Meryt.

9. In the novel, Rebecca is presented as an Oracle. Goddesses are venerated along with gods. What do you think of this culture, in which the Feminine has not yet been totally divorced from the Divine? How does El, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, fit into this?

10. Dinah’s point of view is often one of an outsider, an observer. What effect does this have on the narrative? What effect does this have on the reader?

11. The book travels from Haran (contemporary Iraq/Syria), through Canaan and into Shechem (Israel), and into Egypt. What strikes you about the cultural differences Dinah encounters vis-à-vis food, clothing, work, and male-female relationships.

12. In THE RED TENT, we see Dinah grow from childhood to old age. Discuss how she changes and matures. What lessons does she learn from life? If you had to pick a single word to describe the sum of her life, what word would you choose? How would Dinah describe her own life experience?

Ok breath folks-- we are now all working with the same information. With this information shared, I truly hope y'all also feel some sense of being responsible to keep this discussion going as if we were all Dicsussion Leaders in unison.

That means; honoring each and every viewpoint as well as, acknowledging each other, all the while giving your understanding of the story and how it has personally impacted your life. If some thoughts are contraversal, and we so believe in our own viewpoint, we restate our thoughts in another way but, we do not degrade another's thoughts and we try to stay open to learning from each other to widen our own view.

Most of this I know you would say; "Well Barbara, we do that anyhow!" And yes, its just is a little more effort to add something each day or, in some cases when the discussion lulls or, especially if someone posts that doesn't often post.

Favor; now that y'all feel better having been clued in with the prompt questions would you relook at my view, not necessarily to agree but at least, to understand how I feel in post #120.

Barbara: In answer to Question #1, on reading through Genesis and other parts, I've become aware of how little we know about all the women mentioned, always briefly, all through the Old Testament.It makes you wonder, doesn't it? We all know how Lot's wife was turned into a salt shaker, and I supposse Noah must have a mate, along with all those animals. And what do you suppose Isaac's wife had to say when he decided to offer up his son? The only one who is shown in an estimable light is Ruth, who was totally subjugated by her husband. which probably merited the approval of the Men who wrote these stories.

Lorrrie

1. No change in perspective. No desire to reread anything in the Bible at all, except the few lines referring to Dinah.

2. 4 wives is sick, but still allowed by many of the arab countries. 4 wives who are half-sisters to one another and first cousins to Jacob is bad for the gene pool.

3.Author did a Great job depicting the highly probable relationships between the 4 wives.

Where is everyone - I thought for sure there would be 29 posts since the prologue getting this going seemed to me to be so long.

Lorrie what version of the Bible are you reading? Lorrie do you know about what time in history all this took place? I am just guessing at about 2000 BC.

Hehehe MaryPage enough is enough with all this ancient stuff in more ways than one...I visited with some families in Utah a few years back and although the wives did not share the same home there was problems and the young woman in their late teens were all very sarcastic about the set-up and of course were so loyal to their mothers but not so generous to the other wives. I keep thinking that woman put their life in the hands of the men they marry. To this day there are woman they die during birth and that may be why woman are looking for a greater commitment and a singular commitmet since they view the union through total commitment.

Were there any parts of the relationship between the sisters that brought up memories of intimacies with the woman in your family?

There's one thing I'm sure about--I really don't think I like the father of these wives of Jacob, Laban! Compared to Jacob's industriousness he comes off as a real sloth, and when he went to the village and took the two best dogs which he lost in a game of chance, I can't blame Jacob for being angry. Then to top it off he sold his slave Ruti, the mother of his children! What a creep.

Lorrie

Being one of four sisters I was constantly aware while reading of the relationship between the sisters. also it brought back memories of we sisters at my house after all were married and I was having a get together for the whole family. The married sisters all came to my house and all our husbands were sent off with our children while we cooked and cleaned and prepared a party for about 60 people. Many of them would be elderly grandparents and aunts,uncles. We wanted to impress the older women of our family so it was a big deal to us to have everything just right. When the "Gathering " took place we four were so tired out we couldnt have much fun. I watched the husbands strut their stuff and be the hosts while my sisters and I tried to grab a minute to sit. With children waiting now for their turn at mothers no one rested. That night my sister just older said, "you know, next year lets bring in 4 more wives to help us, and we all broke up laughing. We wondered how many wives a man could truly take care of in this day and age. It was a fun fantasy game. We even had the Old Woman who knew everything telling everybody what to do(Like Rebecca) ..Families, Families.

Have any of you formed any opinions on Dinah's "mothers?" Each one has a unique character, and it's interesting how the author describes them at first with smells, like water, and yeast.

I sort of like Leah. She seems to have taken over command there, and it's actually Leah who runs that whole family, not Laban. And the blue/brown eyes are intriguing! I have a feeling that Dinah will inheit all of Leah's good points.

Lorrie

Faith P: Your post gave me a pang of recognition. My husband was from a large family, and toward the end it actually got to be a terrible chore when we all got together. As usual, the women all banded together and of course all the cleaning up was done by the women. not to mention watching the children while all the men played cards. It would seem that little has changed, wouldn't it? I hope not.

Lorrie

I never had a sister. My half brother did not come along until I was 15. Have always felt wistful about big families and the things they share.

Leah definitely is the Strong Leader of the entire family, although the men don't know this. The other wives each have special gifts and talents, however.

There must be a site somewhere, or an expert, who can date this book. Someone will know, for instance, the approximate years for the Jewish tribes first going to Egypt. We know they left with Moses, many generations later.

Moses Hebrew lawgiver; b. probably Egypt. The prototype of the prophets, in the 13th cent. B.C. he led his people out of bondage in Egypt to the edge of Canaan. According to the Bible (EXODUS; LEVITICUS; NUMBERS; DEUTERONOMY), he lived in constant touch with God, who promulgated the Law (often called Mosaic law) through Moses' mouth. Moses never entered the Promised Land but only saw it from Mt. Pisgah before he died. Authorship of the first five books of the Bible-the Pentateuch or TORAH-has traditionally been ascribed to him; hence they are called the Books of Moses// Copie from Elec. encyclopaedia./ /Since the story is prior to Moses going down to Egypt and presumably much prior to Moses own life we could set it happening before even Ramses 1, I will go see what clues she gives in the chapters on Eygpt. Faith

Copy from Electric Encyclopedia via sherlock FP

MaryPage this is an tiny sample of what an author like Diamant has to study. Most of the excerps are from students of History. I found it added a lot to the book knowing these other things going on in the world then and before then . Fp

<http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/thera/exodus.html

Faith what a fabulous site-- May we have it in the heading please, please. And you are so right it adds so much to the read. 13000 BC my word!

Ok here I go again with the symbols:

Eye: Omniscience; the all-seeing, the fculty of intuitive vision. The sun gods and their life-giving power of fertilization by the sun; Light; enlighenment; knowledge, the mind, vigilanc; protection; stability; fixity of purpose, but also the limitation of the visible. The right eye is the sun the left eye is the moon.
Blue: Truth; the Intellect; revelation; wisdom; loyalty; fidelity; constancy; chastity; chaste affection; spotless reputatuion; magnanimity; prudence; piety; peace; contemplation; coolness.

Blue is the colour of the great deep, the feminine priciple of the waters; it is also the void; primordial simplicity and infinite space which, being empty, can contain everything. It is also the Lunar color. Hebrew (Qabalism)Mercy.
Brown: the earth; Mother Earth; death to the world, renunciation; penitence; degradation.

After marriage I no longer lived near my family but my memories of every family event and holiday always included exhaustion, while husband read newspapers and the hue and cry of when will you be ready. What amazes me is to watch, especially my youngest son, he pitches in and does as much in the house and nurtures his boys who all get his loving arms, and kisses. If he reprimands them it always accompanies a kiss on the head. Watching all this has been a joy and a wonder. Birthdays an the like he has his traditions that he sees to whether it is preparing a barbeque at the boys birthday or hiding the baskets and eggs for Easter or seeing the notes are on the mantel for the feast of St. Nickolas.

Now my daughter, well, she still seems to do it all.

It looks as though our Dinah lived and breathed about four thousand two hundred years ago. And it also seems the Biblical account was not written down, as we now know it, until two thousand four hundred years ago. That is what I get out of this wonderful site our wonderful Faith has found.

Faith P What a great reference site! Thank you. It s so much easier when you can get a better time reference as to when all these things with Dinah were going on, isn't it?

What did you think of the commonly accepted practice of male members of a tribe taking female slaves to bear even more children? As if four wives weren't tnough!

Lorrie

Barbara: Very interesting point about the symbolism of the colors and their meanings!

I still go to the site to read more. I am sure it is somehow "genetic" for the male of a species to want as many offspringt as he can get, and the more women ie females he has available to him the better. He really has to guard his own genes...re animals who have their own "harems" even when they have one lifetime mate. Always exceptions of course. Also in all ages females were known to sneak away from "her" male and seek another in order to spread her gene pool in different combinations. These are unconcious choices and are always , in humans, given emotional conotations (sp) . Still it worked and what a fantastic and complicated thing the human brain is. So I think in certain cases of the beginning of populating a world it is necessary to have more than one mate, and perhaps when a crital number in the population is reached then Monogamy became the important factor in order for "father" to be sure he was passing on his weatlth and power to his real genetic children.Mothers always know their own children ha ha ha...Faith

ps I have no idea how to get the URL into a heading but it is a public site so....if anyone knows how and wants to it is ok with me. fp

One idea I formed after reading The Red Tent: That women lost out when the red tent was no longer used. Instead they were considered dirty when having a period. No more sisterhood and joy of being a woman.

Yes Ginny I noticed that and also it sounds like they were saying it reduced woman to going for the highest bidder. The bit about displaying the linen after a girl has her first period.

I am remembering when I started my period it wasn't considered dirty but it wasn't joyfully acknowledged either. Just something to pragmatically learn how to deal with and how to take care of myself.

A memory that stuck for me is, my mother was a great swimmer and someone had visited my grandmother about training my mother to swim the English Channel. The reason it didn't happen was that my grandmother understood when a woman physically trains her body hard she looses her period. No more words were said but the tone and look as my mother shared her story made the impression on me that it was more important to be a woman menstruating than to achieve great physical feats.

Faith P: Interesting thought about why, back in those biblical times, men seemed to have many wives, plus concubines. It's all in response to the "go forth, and multiply" theme that God bade his followers. And multiply they did, as one can tell from the Bible. Yes, Faith, I think you're right. Monogomy only became the norm when fathers wished to make sure whatthey passed on would go to their real children.

I have always found it distasteful that some cultures find the normal process of female menstruation a "dirty" thing. These particular people were not the only culture to feel that way.

Lorrie

We;; it is a curse you know....I remember my own deep embaresment regarding menstration. I was never told about the facts of life. What I knew I learned from other girls and most of it was wrong. The day I did begin like a million others I was then given a little book to read, a package with instructions on how to use the belts and pins etc. I was told I could not go swimming and only could "spit bath" till after 4th day. Wow. Thank goodness my older sister came home and took me out for a walk and a briefing about what our Mother didnt know. Like it was totally ok to swim, bath, run, play and do anything else I wanted to and if I had cramps it was ok to talk about it. And she clued me in on the fact that I might want to cry a lot ..... She had already been a "woman" for 4 years and so had learned these things.I think that has all changed a great deal. Or perhaps not. I noticed when my daughters were changing into women they prefered me to give them books but I did both. Talked and gave books. Still I never outgrew the feeling it was a very private thing. Nothing to be celebrated as seen in some cultures. Fp

Lorrie in response to your post regarding go forth and multiply I didnt say that at all/ " that it was a biblical thing." It was a suggestion that as an evolutionary response to need for genetic divirsity it was helpful to have many different mates when populating a relatively unpopulated new world. That is what I was talking about. I personally do not think in bibical imparitives. Also millions of men who never heard of the Jewish El or Oh or Yaweh had many wives and concubines and in parts of the world it is still an acceptable custom.Judeo- Cristians in fact seem to be the most monogamous people today. Faithp

hehehe....and that's not saying much, is it, Faith?

And a good He He He to you Betty, no it isnt saying much. I have a notion that Serial Monogamy is what is going on today. fp

Faith I still need to explore your sites and I am grateful for your finding those sites and sending them. I found so much while researching tonight that pleases my soul as compared to some of what is written in the RED TENT. Here goes:

Asherah or Asheroth [-roth] was a beloved household Goddess of the Hebrews and the Canannites (now known as Palestinians). Originaly the Bread of life, this type of Asherah is over 4000 years old. She is a Canaanite fertility goddess and the wooden cult symbol that represented her. She is the consort of El in the Ugaritic texts. Several passages in the Bible refer to planting a tree as a symbol of Asherah, or the setting up of a wooden object as an asherah—the Hebrew words for “tree” and “wood” are the same. She is the Goddess worshipped by King Solomon, and was known as "Qaniyatu Elima" "She Who Gives Birth to the Gods."

The power and presence of Ashera was invoked during childbirth and at planting time. Her sacred animals were lions, serpents, doves, fishes and goats. Her flowers were lilies, lotuses and sheafs of grain. Of course, She also had a special relationship with trees of all varieties, especially the famed Cedars of Lebanon. She is associated with Saturday.

Asherah, the Shekinah, consort and beloved of Yahweh. God-the-Mother. Her sacred pillars or poles once stood right beside Yahweh's altar. Moses and Aaron both carried one of these Asherah "poles" as a sacred staff of power. The Children of Israel were once dramatically healed simply by gazing at the staff with serpents suspended from it. The Serpent stood for ancient wisdom and immortality. This symbol, the snakes and the staff, has become the modern universal symbol for doctors and healers.* She was removed forcibly from the OldTestament Hebrew Scriptures around 400 or 500 B.C. Her priestesses & priests, known by the headbands they wore, worshiped on hill-tops, such as Zion, Mount of Olives.

As the "official" state worship became increasingly male oriented, and the establishment became hostile toward all forms of Asherah worship, a time of conflict and bloodshed lasting over a hundred years began. Those that still clung to Her worship paid the price with their lives at the hands of King Josiah and other rabid Yahwists. (Story in the Old Testament).

Asa, one of the Kings of Judah, cut down an Asherah pole (an idol to to the god Asherah) and burned it in the Kidron Valley. (I Kings 15:13; II Chronicles 15:16) So did King Josiah (II Kings 23:4-6) who took the ashes and spread them out over the graves of the common people. King Josiah also removed alters to other gods, smashed them and threw them over the wall into the Kidron Valley. (II Kings 23:12) The Levites cleaned house in much the same way and used the Kidron Valley as their dumping ground as well. (II Chronicles 29:16)

Early humans depended on the earth for all things, food, shelter, and life itself. They noticed that all life was created within the bodies of females and so it was natural for them to see an all-powerful creator as female. A timeline aligning the Bible with anthropology showing Abraham moves from Ur to Canaan c.2100BC and Joseph sold into slavery c.1900BC during the Bronze Age.

For women, understanding the long tradition of Goddess religion strengthens our connection with our own spiritual essence, regardless of what faith you belong to. Seeing the Goddess within, helps us to appreciate our own power, skill, heritage, and beauty. Honoring the Goddess can teach us to celebrate all the stages of life. An awareness that the Goddess lives in you, can strengthen inner knowings about life, love, nature, nurturing and creativity. Women who are deeply connected with their Goddess essence are better able to make desired changes in themselves, their communities, and the world.

For men, a connection with the Goddess allows them to accept and acknowledge their desire and need for nurturing, protection and the acceptance of a loving female presence. Claiming the Goddess energy within themselves, helps a man to be a more balanced lover, companion and father. It also frees men from the cultural pressure to always be in control. Many Christians and Jews have learned to balanced their reverence for both God and Goddess divinity quite successfully.

Christians, Jews, and Moslems alike have for millennia believed in a solitary male God known by his Hebrews name, Yahweh, However, recent work in the heart of the Holy Land is revealing a different story: one of a dual partnership between Yahweh and his wife, the Canaanite goddess, Asherah. The new evidence is certain to rock the very foundation of the Judeo- Christian tradition. Will it be used to show the Bible is no more than revisionist history?

Additional reading

When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone
Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler
Grandmother of Time by Z Budapest
Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets by Barbara Walker
The Great Goddess by Monica Sjoo & Barbara Mor
Sacred Pleasure by Riane Eisler
The Great Mother by Erich Neumann
Heart of the Goddess by Hallie Inglehart Austin
Drawing Down The Moon by Margot Adler
Moon, Moon (out of print, but worth searching for) by Anne Kent Rush
The Goddesses & Gods of Old Europe by Marija Gimbutas
Spiral Dance by Starhawk
Women and Nature by Susan Griffin
Mirrors of Ancient Womanhood by Merlin Stone
Women Who Run With The Wolves by C. P. Estes

Myths of Ugarit:´El; ´Athirat/ ´Asherah; Ba`al;`Anat Small household deity figurines of clay used in personal devotion, possibly teraphim, have been found by the thousands in Palestine/ Israel, from the Israelite period...Asherah was not a primary deity, although She could have been the primary deity of some city. She is, far more approachable than El - on His mountain at the source of the twin world oceans, in His pavillion behind 7 doorways, from a distance of 8 rooms.

It also appears that the people of the Levant, including the Hebrews-Israelis, continued to worship Her for a very long time. She was the consort of Yahwuh (who blends together aspects of both El and Baal), and She is probably the one referred to as "The Queen of Heaven" by the Jews of Elephantine on the Nile. She was worshipped by the masses, and Her image or symbol was kept in the Temple of Jerusalem for about 3/4 of the duration of its existence, although fanatic monotheists removed it from time to time. She remains the Jewish Shekhinah, the Bride of God.

Greetings to all---I am still off the coast of Maine on an island with only half an hour on the computer. I'll be home with a computer of my own on the eighth.

I do have a question though. Are we assuming that all participants have read the whole book or are we going to take it several chapters at a time? I have read through the posts, and I can't figure out exactly what our approach is.

Maryal

Yes, the answer to Maryal's question would help me, too.

Hi, Maryal: Great to see you back! I think most of the posters have been sort of circling around any specific parts of the book out of deference to me. I mentioned that I hadn't finished reading it yet, but I'm coming now to the end, so that doesn't matter any more. Thank you, all.

It's wonderful how Ms. Diamant sustains the mood of this whole scene. I come away from reading about Dinah with a sense of having been there, gazing up at that red tent in the moonlight, listening to the feminine voices murmurring inside, smelling the faint scent of the oils they use to anoint one another, and hearing the faint bleating of the sheep in the distance. She makes them all come alive, don't you think?

Lorrie

Diamant's writing style helped her to sustains the mood of this important book.

I thought the discussion on Ashera was most interesting. It explains something I noticed when scanning Deuteronomy recently looking for the source of the anti-Harry Potter campaign. One of the abominations was the setting up of poles - obviously part of the forced removal of a female deity from the ceremonials of the tribes. Do you suppose that maypoles are somehow a survival of goddess belief? It is also obvious that a lot of the attributes of Ashera have somehow been transferred to the Virgin Mary, at least by Catholics and AngloCatholics.

This discussion is particularly interesting because my real life book club discussed this same book at its last meeting. It was completely different! Although we may cover some of the same points when we get further along.

I am a retired librarian and a dedicated reader. I'm glad to have found this group.

IIn the introduction Dinah said the other reason women all want daughters is to keep the story of the mother alive. Men do not listen to the mothers stories after they are weaned they for get abot the mother so a woman needs her daughter to keep her story alive. I loved that because I know it is true. Her words(Dinahs) could be mine..My mother and her mother and aunts too, filled my ears with stories all through my childhood, and now as an old lady I am telling them to my daughters and so it goes. Not just 5000 years ago but today.

Barb: I enjoyed your research and it explains a lot about Zilpah's devotion. fp

SWN in Tennessee, I'm glad you found us, too! Your comments are of great interest.

It is true for me that I have learned much, much more from the women in my life, starting with my great grandmother, whom all of us adored and who was quite a character. Now I'm a great grandmother and just not believing it!

Did you know that Charlotte died today?

SWNin Tenn: WELCOME, WELCOME! It's good to see you in here, and I liked your comments on Ashera and the rest of Barbara's wonderful research. Let us know how this book discussion compares with your other club's.

Faith P: I feel that you have really grasped the essence of Dinah, and your thoughts about her are lucid and thoughtful. I like the picture of your mother and aunts "filling your ears," and now you doing the same with your own daughters, and so on and so on. gives a sense of continuity, doesn't it?

Mary Page, we are all teribly saddened to hear of Charlotte's death. My heart goes out to Milt. For those posters here who are not familiar with the name, Charlotte was a former Discussion Leader and a frequent poster in many of our discussions, and we will miss her dearly.

Lorrie

While I enjoy my sons I wish I could also have had a daughter. I am hoping that my son's wives (when they have them) will become my daughters.

I had forgotten the part of the story that speaks of the relationships of mothers and daughters. Does anyone remember when the Jewish men began saying the prayer 'Thank you Lord that I am not a woman'?

Any man of any ethnic or religious background would thank his Lord, for not making him a woman as soon as he watched a woman in childbirth. I truly find the descriptions of childbirth (and the "Red Tent" as the place) a fascinating study, and the midwivery descriptions are too great. I know she had to do tons and tons of research and I wish she had a bibliography re: the midwifery, abortion, contraception etc. I found some sites listing the books about these subjects but no essays. I guess a person would have to buy the books or go to the library. I re read Dinahs birth and then skipped over to Josephs delivery from Rachel and it was a really well written scene of a difficult delivery. All Rachels sisters are in on the birth plus the midwife Inan. She has a big part in the story I think. As Rachels friend and teacher. I was very deep into the first part of the book as I have three sisters, and the four of us were never apart for long in our whole lives 3 of us lived within 30 miles of each other and the one who lived away 300 mls came here often and we all went there often. A perfect holiday was when all four of us left children with husbands and went together on a trip even just a day trip was great. FP

I have always been grateful that I was born a woman.

I find men have to put on such a phony act to live up to what our culture expects of them. "Be a man!" is drummed into their heads from infancy. I tried hard with my son, and am pleased he does as well as he does, but still all of the other social influences: school, peers, other adults, etc., combined to exert some of this pressure on him.

Women enjoy Such a wonderful Sisterhood. We enjoy it no matter what and no matter where. Color, race, age, religion, culture, these things do not enter into it. We share so much and have so much knowingness in common. I LOVE being a Woman!

The decription of Dinah birthing her son starting on page 224 became so personal to me.

I only lived about 90 miles from my parants when my first two children were born but I the oldest was not surrounded by family. The years 1953 and '54 when typical at the first sign of discomfort under you went. I remember with my first being all alone in a darkened hospital operating room hearing another woman screaming and having no clue what to expect, if I should or not be scared, saying my rosery. I longed for a voice any voice. And was put under before I knew af the real battle.

After several miss-carrages the first book that I knew about explaining what happens and how to help yourself and how to relax was published. Something about natural childbirth. Then it was 1959 and I lived 1,500 miles away from family. My youngest, Paul was the second baby born in a new hospital building. He was a month late and I was asked to go ahead in so they could start the IV and get things going. The nurses where chatty, I had a small but pleasant labor room, the doctor went to play golf believing I would be all morning, I used all the techniques I learned in the book and believed I knew what was happening. I was calm in my knowledge and practiced relaxation skills.

The hardest work I ever did, I wept and cried and screamed, they asked me to cross my legs and wait for the doctor and I didn't - the nurses and I delivered my baby and because of the empty hospital he stayed with me all day and most of the night rather than being alone in the baby nursery. My heart has always been full to this day when I look on my son. He is my child not a child handed to me hours later after waking all drugged.

My dilemma has always been how to tell him, if I should tell him. I never wanted any of my children to feel or believe one was more valuable to me than another and yet, in my heart of hearts my youngest is my child differently than the older two.

I too am glad to be a woman and always have been. Sisterhood is a natural state and it is true that there are no lines drawn as to keep that woman out and let that woman in, all women are my sisters,period. HaHaHa that just slipped in as I was typing and reminded me of something. When I left my home there were 3 women in menses and it seemed we were all withing a few hours of the same start day. and 29 days. After my child was born and I started again I was living just with hubby, and I was 26 days and it seemed a short time between periods. I went home to stay for a few months when my sisters were all home and now there were 5 women in menses all living together. After a few weeks a startling fact became apparent that we were now all with in a few hours of each other again. It was some years before there were studies done in womens dorms at Universities that found the phenomonom of women starting menses together when living in a group. Just thought the red tent would be crowded with my family.FP

ALLEGORY; a description of one thing using the image of another. And so I've researched: names of woman and men, places, tents, temples, rivers finding their symbolic meaning.

Jacob, means "supplanter," one who gradually supplants and takes the place of the natural man in the consciousness of the individual and of the race.

Mystics tell us that man passes through twelve stages in his spiritual development. The last and highest state of consciousness is the complete, twelve-sided spiritual character attained by Jesus.

Jacob was overdeveloped intellectually and robbed his body (Esau) of its rightful heritage of life. This wrong he atoned for when he divided his accumulated wealth with Esau. In the meantime he had developed the spiritual side of his life and had brought forth sons.

Jacob's journeying-- symbolizes crossing the sea of life, overcoming its difficulties and attaining perfection. A Transformation symbol, the search for lost Paradise, initiation, facing trials and dangers in a quest for realization, training the character, passing from darkness into light, choosing the right or left handed path. Traveling east is the direction towards which worshipis oriented.

The three flocks of sheep represent blindly following growth. Three representing the soul and in Hebrew uniting the three states of innocents, obedience, activity of life. The people Jacob visits are living in Haran, the name of which means "strong," "exalted," "mountaineer"; the people being not necessarily spiritual but having high ideals.

Laban represents the unsophisticated natural man whose pure high ideals are expressed by Rachel and Leah (they shepherd-- protector of any flock, his sheep or thoughts). The natural man in his immature consciousness is moved by desire and not by rational thinking. The higher self in man loves the pure natural soul (Rachel) and works joyously to possess it. The higher self also loves the human part of the soul (Leah) with a love of true thought. Jacob was true to Leah.

The love story of Jacob and Rachel-- pairing opposities, relationship between the divinity and the world, a spiritual union, each partner 'giving up' to the other, but with the death forming a new life. Jacob served her father seven years the number of the universe, completness, three of the heavens and sould four of the earth and the body, the first number that contains both the spiritual and temporal, Security, safety rest, virginity, the Great Mother, seven pillars of wisdom the Temple took seven years to build-- for her hand-- the tool of toolswith the power to express. they signify power, strength providence -- and Jacob was then disappointed because he had to marry her elder sister Leah. He then served seven more years for Rachel, which because of his great love for her seemed but a few days.

The name Rachel means "journeying," "migrating," a transitory state.

The name Bilhah means "bashfulness," "timidity," "tenderness." Bilhah represents a tendency of the soul toward self-abasement.

The name Zilpah means "distilling," "leaking." Zilpah symbolizes the unfolding soul of man in which as yet too much of the human is in evidence.

Sexual potency is, in literature, symbolic of political power and sexual inhibition symbolizes political dispiriting in order to repress assertiveness and agression.

The first child born to Leah was Reuben which means "a son seen," "vision of the son."

Man's spiritual development is vision, the ability to discern the reality of Spirit that is behind every form or symbol in the material world. Like Jacob all Truth seekers are anxious to develop faith (Benjamin) to remove mountains and imagination (Joseph) to mold substance to their desires, but also like Jacob they must realize spiritual seeing, hearing, feeling, praise, judgment, strength, power, understanding, zeal, and order.

Simeon, the second son of Leah, represents hearing or, receptivity. When man is receptive to the inflow of Spirit nothing can keep his good from him, and he is in a position to make rapid strides in his development.

Levi, the third son-- Leah exclaimed, "Now this time will my husband be joined unto me." The emphasis is on the word joined. Levi means "uniting," which in the body is feeling the spirit love. When we elevate love (Levi) to the plane of Spirit (John), it draws to us all that the soul requires. When it is kept on the lower plane as feeling or emotion it often leads to selfishness, to indulgence, even to violence.

The fourth son, Judah. In the Hebrew this name means "praise Jehovah." In Spirit this is prayer. In consciousness this becomes acquisitiveness, the desire to accumulate material things, and if the self is dominant the faculty "hath a devil" (Judas).

In the Oriental household where there were several wives there were petty jealousies and naive intrigues. Jacob spent most of his time with Rachel since she was his favorite. To get his attention Leah bargained with Rachel to keep out of the way for a while, and as a reward gave her some mandrakes sumbols of the Great Mother, giver of life, enchantment, conception and fertility. Leah had great zeal and was never discouraged by her failure of her attempts to win Jacob's favor. When the child was born she called him Issachar, a name meaning "there is reward." He represents zeal.

Zeal is a strong force, the urge behind all things and the impulse to every achievement. It sets in motion all the machinery of the universe to attain the object of its desire. It should be tempered with understanding and love, else it becomes a destructive force. Even a criminal may be zealous in his work.

Leah-- distinguished from the more advanced soul (Rachel)--was the mother of six --equilibrium, harmony the most productive of all numbers, union of polarity, love, health, beauthy, chance, luck, intelligence-- or one half of Jacob's sons. The last one was Bebulun (whose name means "habitation," "neighbor") and who symbolizes order.

Order is the first law of the universe. There could be no universe unless its various parts were kept in perfect harmony. Therefore, it is most important, if we are to survive at all, that our thoughts be put in order and kept in harmony with divine intelligence. No man-made law can be strong, true, or exact enough to insure perfect order.

The name Dinah, the daughter of Leah and Jacob, means "judged," "justified," "acquitted," "avenged." Dinah represents the soul side or feminine; it might be called intuition, the intuition of the natural.

Laban searched the tents for the teraphim without discovering them.

These “images,” teraphim (see Judges 17:5; 18:14; etc.), were usually small human figurines, occasionally larger, often made of wood (1 Sam. 19:13-16). Near Eastern excavations have uncovered them in profuse numbers, made of wood, clay, and precious metals. Some represent male gods, but the majority are figurines of female deities 2 to 3 in. in length. They were used as household gods or were carried on the body as protective charms.

Cuneiform texts from Nuzi in Mesopotamia reveal that the household gods were inherited by adopted sons only when no actual sons were present at the father’s death. If a man had sons, his gods could not go to his daughters. Rachel therefore had no right to her father’s household gods, as Jacob frankly admitted (Gen. 31:32). Documents found at Nuzi, in Mesopotamia, indicate that in the patriarchal age the possession of the family’s household gods, such as Laban had, guaranteed to their holder the title to his father’s properties.(see vs. 30, 33–35).

The Mesopotamian laws decreed capital punishment for the theft of divine property (Code of Hammurabi, sec. 6;), and the validity of this law was recognized by Jacob in his declaration that whoever had Laban’s gods should die (ch 31:32). He seems to have learned later that these and other gods were in the possession of his wives, hence demanded their surrender and buried them (ch 35:2–4).

The teraphim, translated "images" in the Authorized Version of the Bible, carried away from Laban by Rachel were regarded by Laban as gods, and it would therefore appear that they were used by those who added corrupt practices to the patriarchal religion.

A covenant was made between Jacob and Laban. They gathered stones in a heap and they ate there. Laban called the heap Jegar-sahadutha, the Aramaic name for Galeed. Galeed means "massive witness," "heap of witnesses," "rock of time," "great endurance." It was the heap of stones that Jacob and Laban gathered for a witness that was called Mizpah, "watchtower," and thus signifies the watchtower of prayer, while Galeed signifies the witness that Spirit with man bears to Truth.

Jacob offered a sacrifice, and he and his brethren ate bread together. The sacrifice consisted of an animal slaughtered. Symbol; the surrender of the instinctual and emotional urges which must be transcended before man may enter spiritual realms. Eating bread means joining in communion, the union of many grains in one substance and when broken and shared represents shared and united life.

Edom was the name of the country where Esau's descendants lived. It represents the outer man, the body, or the carnal, physical phase of man.

The Jordan ("flowing of judgment") represents that place where we are willing to meet the results of our thoughts face to face with understanding and courageously pass judgment on all thoughts.

The original separation between mind (Jacob) and body (Esau) was caused by the cunning mind taking advantage of the lusts and weaknesses of the bodies appetite. Illustrated is a further separation because of the physical possessions of Esau. Those who cultivate the physical grow physically and require so much room that the mental is crowded out, and they exalt the things of the flesh.

Esau dwelt in Mount Seir. The name Seir means "shaggy," "rough," "tempestuous," "hairy." The two states of consciousness represented by Jacob and Esau must be merged.

Jacob feared to meet Esau symbolically finding it hard to face the full claims of the body (Esau) after he had cheated it of its birthright. Divine courage must supplant this fear before Jacob is equal to facing the consequences of his self-centered thoughts (fears) and able to harmonize all his forces symbolized by his family, servants, animals and goods..

The name of the ford where Jacob wrestled with the angel means "wrestling," and Jacob wrestled in darkness at night-- primordial chaos, the source of dualism, not necessarily evil, indiscretion, proceeds rebirth.

The mind controls the body through the thoughts acting on the nerves. The sciatic nerve runs down the leg through the hollow of the thigh, and the will acts directly through this nerve. When the intellect (Jacob) exercises its power in the effort to control the natural man within, there follows a letting go of human will--Jacob's thigh is out of joint.

A great understanding breaks in on the struggling intellect within the soul, when it discovers that there is a divine-natural body, and the intellect clings to that inner life and strength until it brings to the surface the blessing of perpetual physical vigor. Jacob (intellect) said, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me." The blessing carried with it a new name, Israel; one who has striven with God and with men and has prevailed. "Israel" is one who is a prince and has power as regards both God and man, the spiritual and the material.

Instead of Jacob being weaker because of his limp, he was stronger. He had made a spiritual adjustment between the higher and the lower in his body consciousness. Persons who are skilled in exercises of agility and strength must have the will to win a contest before they are victorious, and trainers are giving more and more attention and assigning ever greater importance to the mental state of their athletes

Jacob, now become Israel, was reunited with Esau after he crossed the ford Jabbok ("wrestling"). The universal law of the unity of all things was fulfilled. The way in which the mind (Israel) projects its thoughts toward the body (Esau) is symbolized by the way in which Rachel and her children, Leah and her children, and the handmaids with their children were presented to Esau. The handmaids first, they represent physical thoughts. Leah and her children, next, represent intellectual thoughts. Rachel (most beloved) and her son Joseph were last, they represent spiritual thoughts.

"Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept." He rufused at first to accept the proffered gifts of Jacob. The gifts that Jacob gave to Esau symbolizes that the body can be expressed only through union with the mind .

Jacob again entered the land of Canaan. His fears gone--he came in peace to Shechem--he was free to pitch his tent wherever he pleased.

c. 3000 - 2000 B.C. People moved into the Levant (Strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean boundaried by mountains). They were the Canaanites. They were the best merchants of the ancient world. Clothing at this time was always very drab. People used vegetable dyes which are not very vivid. The Canaanites developed a dye that was vivid and colorfast from the murex shell/animal which made a very vivid maroon color that wouldn't fade. One drop of the dye could be extracted from each murex. Only the wealthy could afford this luxury -- only nobility. In Greece, all the young nobles wanted it (Royal Purple). The Greeks went to the Canaanites and called them the Phoenicians (Phoenix -> Purple). They were great navigators, sailors, mariners -- the greatest in the world. They were not a bellicose people.

The name Dinah means "justified," "avenged." Dinah represents the soul side of or the feminine element, which may be called intuition, the intuition of the natural man. The thought of vengeance that is suggested in the name always comes to the natural man in the process of judging.

Dinah, representing this feminine element, went out and mingled with the daughters of the land, who were Hivites. The Hivites were descended from Canaan, son of Ham, and represent the physical and carnal qualities in the individual. Hamor represents a central or ruling thought (he was a Hivite prince) in the carnal consciousness of man.

Shechem (burden-bearing thoughts), representing a belief in the reality of the material and physical, sought to make his relationship with Dinah (feminine, intuitional element) permanent.

I think there are two stories going on side by side in this book - the one being the spiritual growth of Jacob better accepted when sex and many wives is used symbolically. There is also the story that is the story of the changing of woman's status as a result of a a religion turned patriorical that is unlocked in this story with supression or dis-respect, of woman's sexuality and the abuse of woman.

I know, 4 huge long posts - enough is enough Barbara but-- I really have found so much more when I researched all the gods and goddess mentioned in the book and I have a theory based on mostly the behavior of of Zilpah and Leah.

What makes me see that this may be a split story or two stories side by side is the story itself seems to be split after Dinah is off to Egypt-- that part of the book could almost stand on it's own, only needing the bit describing her love for Shechem. Yes, combining or coupling a belief in the reality of the material and physical, with feminine, intuitional element.

Barbara: As usual, your posts add significantly to the understanding . I, however, do not agree with the supression and the abuse theory here. Diamant makes a good case for the women's OWN sexuality, love and respect that they felt for Jacob right off the rip @ the beginning of this book. Noone forced these 4 women, they were toatally submissive due to the fact that they WANTED the man. Beautiful, little Rachael wanted to marry the man from the onset ( even if she was pre-pubertal.) When Leah met him, her thighs warmed. Zilpah had little use for ANY man, we know, but she knew her time with Jacob would also come. Bilhah was just a child, at the time, but they were all smitten with him. There was no coercion or abuse that I could see.

Alf I also read the story as the women of their time wanted the best man they could possible find to father their children. There is no abuse. No coercion not even with Bilhah who was a "seer". Also there is no "wrong" here in the poligamy as it was a pratice all over the world at that time.

Now I also see that Barb is speaking of a symbolic expression of the story. I did not read this book in that manner or I would never have enjoyed the writing, the research or the story. I know there is a lot of religious symbolism here. But I see this as a wonderful story of a different time of history and therefore understood on a different leval than if it were happening in todays world.

. I am very interested in the childbirthing methods. Also I love the way the women express throughout their "secret" life which of course the men could care less about. In human terms their is male world and female world and never the twain shall meet except in sexual intercourse. Now I do resent the growing Paternalism that started with the destruction of the godess' in the lives of these women. And we will talk all about the killing of Dinahs husband down the line. THAT is the BIGGY in this book and totally connected to the first part of the book and leads us naturally to Dinahs future life. Faith

I hear you Alf but let me lay my case out and than lets talk about it. And your right Rachael is so smitten right off - it is too late at night for me to get into my concept of all this tonight.

Faith I didn't read the book with all this symbolism either - I was just so appalled at what I was reading-- the parts that were taken directly from the Bible, I had to find some reason that these stories held the importance they still hold to so many.

Once I learned this was a quest story of Jacob becoming spiritually more and each of his children and wives added important aspects of a souls journey while on this earth then the appalling behavior was easier to understand. So Out came my copy of An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols; and A Grammar of Motives by Kenneth Burke; along with lots of research on the net, mostly anthropolgy sites refering to so many contemporary finds, I was able to peice together a symbolic interpretation that eased my reading especially about the men's behavior.

The book is fairly sodden with the blood of women's abuse. Early on, there is a sentence that says Rachael is the only daughter not struck by Laban. Striking your daughters is abuse. As the wives of Jacob are packing and preparing to move, they understand that Laban's current wife (Ruti?) has been beaten so often that their departure will surely mean her death. She knows this, too, and kills herself.

Women were property bought and sold, used within the traditional family for the service of men. Within that small world that women inhabited, they made their small wishes known. The larger world and its freedom belonged to men only. Daimant gives us so many examples. Jacob did not even remember Dinah's face--couldn't quite picture his daughter's face when he heard of the request for his blessing of her marriage. That's how important daughters were in a man's world. Dinah's child was taken from her legally to be known as the son of her mother-in-law. That's how important women's lives were. They did not have power over their own children.

That women found comfort and solace in each other and "made a life" within the small world allotted to them is a familiar tale told through many centuries.

Remarkably, I wouldn't let myself think about these things while reading the story. I wanted to let Daimant tell her tale. I wanted to feel the respect and honor that women gave their bodies and what the hard life they lived felt like from a woman's point of view. By the time Dinah's brothers murdered her husband (that rates as abuse), I was really struggling to read at surface level.

These women were the prisoners of the men of their clan. They did not have the freedom to choose to leave, as unprotected women would likely have been raped and killed or enslaved in those days. We enjoy the freedom, but still have to be wary of the threat. Four thousand years later, we have a better world, but not one that is improved sufficiently.

The wonderful ways in which these women had a secret world of their own has a parallel in the secret worlds enjoyed by prisoners, slaves, servants and all of the downtrodden and conquered of the world who have no power over their lives, but compensate as best they can.

All the references to mid-wifery and difficult births interest me greatly. Many years ago, I was carrying a full-term baby when it was discovered there was no heartbeat. Because they thought the baby was dead in the womb, and I hadn't gone into labor, they induced labor with what was then call pitocyn, and it was horrible! I screamed and yelled for sixteen hours, until the tiny boy was taken from my womb, his face blue, and the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck three times. I have never forgotten that torment, knowing all the while that my child was dead. Reading about these childbirth stories brought it all back.

I don't think I would ever have wanted to be a woman in those times. As Betty and Mary Page put it, abuse of women those days was prevelant!

Lorrie

Alf, Faith, I want to switch horses for a minute and say that one of the greatest mysteries/questions (and sources of greatest pain for me) is the possibility of happiness within a smaller world. I think my grandmother was happy for all of her long life, if not "powerful" in the way I see power. She lived at the feet of her husband and used her religious faith to justify it. She taught this to her children---who were not as lucky as she was to have a benevolent spouse. My grandmother (as other women have) spent her whole life not knowing that there was a different life possible. She accepted without question her station in life.

Bottom line, I don't know how to talk about this. Don't know how to value and celebrate the nurturing and compassion that women do so well and at the same time "see" how small their lives can be. How truly powerless within the larger world. I agree with MaryPage that today's environment for women is not sufficiently better. Good word sufficient.

It's too simple to relate what I used to ask clients/patients. When asked for a list of who they "took care of," "cared about," (or for a list of people prioritized) invariably women would list all but themselves.

Betty thanks for calling my attention to the fact that my list includes not just my children and husband, my syblings, my mom but my in laws also and a great many strangers, and not my self until I was forced to in my 60's. Even while having treatment for Cancer I was part time caretaker of a 97 year old woman and I was with her till she was 102 and I was 65 . I was a third child..they say (my psychologist when I had one) that it is perfeclty natural not just that woman nurture but that the third child also is the peacemaker etc in the family and I was.

That has little to do with the fact that YES there was abuse 10,000. years ago.. There Is abuse today. I am hopeful however. I think it is difficult to sort out our emotional response "today" to this story of yesterday because it seems to still be much the same in many parts of the world including our own culture. Most of the crimes against women are no more subtle than they everwere.

To read this story without reacting to the male Patriach Society would be impossible I agree. And we all seem to be appalled by the story yet we did know of the history of those times. I think It is because Ms. Diamant makes this story imminent, fully present, right now, and we can't truly duck it like I want to and say it is all history. Because it is not. And we have a long way to go to bring any parity to womens lives in this world. If ever. Faith P

We are losing sight of the fact that it is only in the last century, indeed in the last few decades, that women have had any power other than that exercised by either sexual attractiveness or power of personality. Inveighing against the system is as futile as saying that they didn't have running water and air conditioning, poor things. I am certainly grateful that I live now, and not then. I would be unhappy with the physical discomforts and the lack of autonomy but the point is that these women had a society among themselves that gave them happiness and probably more support and care than we receive from other women since we have all been "liberated". Actually, the women did have some mystical power; Rebecca was a very powerful individual and even Rachel bested Laban about the household gods she wished to take with her. It is not possible ever to judge actions hundreds or thousands of years ago by today's values.

You may all say what you wish, but I personally found the men in this story to be very repugnant. With the exception of Dinah's two husbands, of course. And those murderous brothers of hers! It's easy to see where there would be little sibling affection in this family. The way the brothers used their women is deplorable. And with all the women available to them, why in the world would they feel it necessary to use female sheep? Not very attractive!

Lorrie

Betty G"Bottom Line I dont know how to talk about this" Well neither do I.

I went out to lunch and discussed this book with a male friend. He said he thinks we probably are all hung up on saying what we think about the men because it is the Bibical Jacob we are talking about. And his sons who became the 13 tribes of the Old Testement. I retorted it was not that and that we were all agreed that the "bible" is just a setting.

When we came home he pointed out in Praise for Red Tent quote"this book fairly sings its moral message of love and honor." and he remarked that every person who reads books like this will disagree as much as they agree in discussions. He went out to buy a copy as I wont give mine up. I am going a little nuts on the topic. I hate the circumstances that could create this story.

I still think the most reprehensible thing about the Tribe Jacob headed up is the Killing of Dinahs husband etc. and it is of course the whole base out of the bible that Ms Diamant wrote the story on. fp

I thought Judah came through very well. I also thought it interesting that the author chose to treat him so.

He was the patriarch of his own tribe, as you know, and they dwelt in Judea (South Israel) after the escape from Egypt. He is the direct ancestor of the Kings of Israel and of Jesus of Nazareth. His was Not one of the ten lost tribes.

Lorrie, I feel so Tied to you now! My first born stopped jumping around. They could not get a heartbeat. They made me carry him until I went into labor on my own. I had 2 weeks of hell believing it most likely he was dead. He was born dead. It was a boy, also, and had the cord wound around the neck several times. Someone asked me once why a baby would die from that, since they get their nourishment through the cord and do not breathe. I could not answer. Do you know? Maybe the cord gets tied so tightly, the nourishment does not get through it. Well, I died a million deaths for 3 years until I finally held a baby of my very own.

Faith, it was only 12 tribes. To me, the worst thing these brothers ever did was the betrayal of their own brother and father in selling Joseph to the slave traders and giving their father his blood stained coat (of many colors) and telling Jacob that his favorite son was dead. To betray your Very Own Blood is worse than betraying strangers. Not more important an event, but even more Cold Blooded an event.

Here we are again....a familiar thread in our discussions....wondering whether a book's character has made choices freely (of those available to her) and is therefore content, or if she is caught in the web of restricted culture---of women and of the times. We wondered these things about Clarissa in Virginia Woolf's Mrs Dalloway, the same of Rose (right name?--Eliza's adopted mother, John and Jeremy's sister) in Allende's Daughter of Fortune. Now, again, we wonder how much happiness was possible for women of the red tent.

One of the comments I made at my live discussion group was that the twenty first century certainly didn't invent the dysfunctional family. The brothers were indeed brutes. Hobbes said that life in primitive tribes was "nasty, brutish, and short". Nothing to contradict that here. One thing that particularly interests me is that Jews have a prayer that mentions "our forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"; the Episcopal Church, and probably the Roman Catholic Church, also use this prayer. In fact, when we had a female priest, she also included the phrase "our foremothers, Sarah, Rebecca, and Rachel" every Sunday. Of course, that geneology would also have to include Laban, since he was Rachel's father. Not a good thought, but things were as they were.

Strange that that priest would mention Rachel and not Leah. It was Leah's son, Judah, whose tribe was one of the two not "lost", who was the ancestor of King David and of Jesus. Remember, Jesus was referred to as "the Lion of Judah."

Negative! The heart of this story is the women, not the abusive men that they were forced to endure. The prologue of the book grabbed me instantly and held me right there thruout the entire read. It is a womans saga!! They spun their sticky webs of loyalties and grudges. AD says they traded secrets like bracelets. They passed on their stories, their folklore, their beliefs and their ideals for generations, these women! This is the STORY!! These women were bound by more than just blood lines. It's difficult for me to dwell on the injustices that were dished out to them. What the point is is how they dealt with them. Injustices ARE! They always have been and they always will be. Can't you feel the love and the dedication these women shared ? Granted they all had their own idiosyncracies and issues but they were dependant on one another. Dinah had four women who loved her dearly, individaully teaching her what memories to keep alive. Their stories were like offerings of hope and stregth poured out for her. You ladies who suffered the misfortune of miscarriages and stillborn infants you were foced to carry- to whom did you turn? Who held you, stroked your face, mingled their tears with yours? Only another woman could have assuaged that pain. That is what this story is about. Women's feelings!! That is the crux of the matter here- the responsibilities of being a woman, the joys that are inherent in sharing with other women and the pain that accompanies womanhood.

Alf, I'm about 3/4 the way there---the celebration/story of women being there for each other. I'm sure you're right that this is Daimant's story. And in this endeavor, she does deliver. Do you think she believes we've lost some of that? I can't quite get a fix on what inspired her to write this.

I have always found love and support from other women. Sometimes family, sisters. Sometimes close friends, and in later life when I was in dire need, women who were phsychiatric Nurse, Social Worker, Psychologist. And though they were in the profession to help I always thought of these people as my support group.Not paid medical professionals though they were.I have now 2 daughters and 1 daughter in law and the grand daughters 4, who are always so profoundly support of each other. Am I different

.I had three living children and four born in the second trimester to early. My Mother and Grandmother were there for me. My sisters too, and once I was in Colorado when I lost a child and my husband drove us straight through to Californis in 24 hours to get me to my sisters and mom. It was wonderful of him and I always blessed his sensitivity to the fact that no matter how much he loved me he could not take the place of my female family.

I was so caught up in the story of these women who were so loving and kind to each other in spite of envy and some sexual jelousy too, who supported each other through their own "crazy"times. I am thinking of Zilpah .

Alf is right on. The way to enjoy this book , get the most out of it for me was to do as I said before just read the story like any other fiction novel. My friend Charlie is now reading the book. He went out and got a copy. He was widowed a couple of years ago and I really miss his wife so sometimes we go someplace together and chat about what is happening. She was a dear friend and we read books and exchanged them all the time. I was delighted to get him interested as it is rare for me anymore to get a mans point of view. Old men (as old as me I mean) are so much more open and sensitive than they were when they were young. Anyone notice that fp

Yes, Faith. They seem to mellow into really great human beings as the testosterone dwindles. Some, of course, have always been wonderful personalities.

And I totally agree that this book is a book of Celebration of the sisterhood of womankind. It shows how it began, waaay back when, and how we have come to be the fortunate heirs of this tradition.

This is the story of the women, really the males were almost part of the background. The only man whose character is developed at all is Dinah's second husband. The others are just animated brutal paper dolls.

It fascinates me that the subject of abuse did not come up at all in the live group discussion I attended. This group is mostly university educated women, and it is offered through ORICLE, Oak ridge Institute for Learning in Retirement, an offshoot of Elderhostel. So these are women in our age group. We had two Jewish women, and the rest (I think) were predominantly protestant. Most of these women had worked at the professional level. The book was introduced by a retired high school teacher who is supposed to be an expert on the Bible, who contributed nothing useful to the discussion, and who would have gone on for an hour if the group leader had not reminded her that others' opinions needed to be heard also. It is sometimes useful to have a moderator. The nearest comment to anything about abuse was mine about dysfunctional families.

I think all of us who have children have issues with how we were forced to give birth, although of us who brought forth living children obviously do not have the grief to bear that those whose child died in utero have to contend with. It was a barbaric system; I remember watching our neighbor's bitch give birth, and wishing I had had that kind of suppoort in labor. And this was after the fifth child had been born! I am proud that our generation did something to change things in that regard, and now birthing woman can have support available.

Things are better! Abuse still occurs, but women have recourse now. Young women now are better educated and less dependent than we were. The past cannot be changed, and we waste our efforts when we dwell on past injustices instead of doing what we can in the present.

Oh, Alf, how right you are! When my baby was born dead, it wasn't the male doctor who comforted me even before or after, it was one of the hospital's registered nurses, who held my hand all through the labor, and on whose starched breast i sobbed when the baby finally arrived. In fact, all those caregivers (female) gathered around when they knew the baby was stillborn---not unlike the gathering of the women in the Red Tent.

Since reading this book, I've developed a sort of kinship with all my sisters, I feel a part now of Womankind in general. I've never been a strident feminist, but this book has made me aware that we all share many attributes. What was it Dinah quoted toward the end of the book? "We are all born of the same mother>"

Lorrie

Lorrie that is a great closing sentence I think "We are all born of the same MOTHER. " SWN it does seem that there are many levals this book could be discussed on. And one of them is Symbolism as Barb was posting about and that would be a discussion almost seperate from discussion the book as a history of the bible and that discussion it can not hold up for as is stated the Men are never given much characterization individually, perhaps Laban as "abuser" and Benia who brings love to Dinah finally and seems positively Post feminisim-modern . And it is only in the last chapter of the book when Joseph is reunited with Jacob that we see what has happened to any of the brothers of Dinah. While she stands unrecognized again, the reunion takes place. This book has so many facets to it . I think I may be getting a little jaded on it. Fp

Remember, Judah Did recognize Dinah.

Mary Page has it! The celebration of the sisterhood of womankind. Oh, I love that! They all took such delight in weeping and laughing together.

Yes, Betty, I do believe we have lost some of this comraderie. We have become too jaded, too insincere with one another.

Bless your heart Lorrie. What a horror to go thru that ordeal. Thank God for the women in your life at that time. While reading this novel I ached for my granddaughters that they will never be able to have this type of "family unit." It makes me feel much better just knowing that you have reunited in your kinship with your sisters after reading this. I've never been blessed with a sister and have felt that loss many times in the past. My love of dear friends has taken me over many hurdles.

The role of a midwife is a very dominant theme in this book, isn't it? Reading these passages reminds me of how my mother used to tell all four of us children that I was the only one born at home, and with a midwife, and that mine was the easiest birth of them all. My mother doted on the midwife who delivered me, said she was far better than the male M.D. who was her doctor for my siblings. Even way back then, midwifery was a highly respected and much appreciated job.

Lorrie

Counterpoint---for thought. I often do this within my own thinking. The NEED that was met by these women in Dinah's life, the need to support each other, this sisterhood, is the same need found in disenfranchized classes throughout history. Daimant may have made most of the male characters "background" for her story of the women, but horrible treatment of the women by these men was liberally told. What bound the women together, along with the monthly cycles and intimate arrival of babies, was the pain of existence, e.g., feelings about their father's treatment of them and, especially, his slow murder of his wife. Daimant must have used the word "slave" hundreds of times when referring to women outside of Jacob's family. Naked little girl slaves.

Today's need for sisterhood is great, as well. Here's my counterpoint, though. As I really want more women to feel free to tell the truth of their real lives to each other (this new language that Carolyn Heilbrun speaks of), I also yearn to connect to men in this same truth telling. I want some of the reasons for sisterhood to fade away. There are many men ready to honor us as whole people. One of my brothers does. Another is headed that way. Some male friends along the way have been as ardent feminists as I am. A male friend from Chicago, 20 years ago, 20 YEARS AGO, used to get more upset over how women were depicted in magazine ads than I did. Our own Charlie Wendell wanted to discuss Virginia Woolf books, found and suggested this book by Daimant and several other books that focus on women's lives. No other book group online, not even women-only book groups, has offered better books for discussion.

As usual, I want the impossible. I want more coming together of women, telling each other truths my grandmother's and mother's generations would not tell each other. And I want the same level truth-telling with men. I've HAD those conversations with men---there's nothing like it, nothing compares. The "waiting to exhale" is over when you have those conversations.

LORRIE: It appears that The Red Tent "sorority" is much lke the midwife hierarchy.AD says the tent is an earthbound rainbow. a biblical sorority, so to speak. The women gather, marking the death and the rebirth of the moon. The days spent together in "the red Tent" passed easily and lovingly as they celebrated in harmony. It was a ceremony of tenderness. This proves that BETTY does not ask the impossible. What a gift these women had. They needed their time here. I love the idea that they sat and gossiped about Jacobs dreams and desires ! Who was your favorite?

Leah? meaning "Mistress?"- the eldest of Adah and Leban. She was the reliable and deliberate one. I love the explanation of one blue, pronounced eye & one green without lashes. I choose her as she's the baker,m---mmmm - smelling like yeast. TALL. (always wanted to be tall!)

Betty is so right in what she says.

*********

One thing we desperately need to teach our daughters (I did, and they were and are fine) and granddaughters (currently working on the last of seven) is that they Must Not trot around like ponies with invisible but Obvious signs front and back that say: "Sex for Sale! Buy here!" Our culture is full of little girls age 12 to 16 who look Dreadful, rather than pretty and sweet. They are falling into the error of setting their Main sights on having a "boy friend", and later a husband and babies. They think you have to look like a slut to be "popular."

I asked my youngest, with a skirt up to her kazoo and a department store counter full of make-up on her face, who had just had a Huge battle with my daughter, her mother, over getting a second hole in the upper ear for additional earrings, what she wanted to be when she grew up. She replied that I knew what she wants to be, she wants to be an opera star.

So I told her to start being a star Now. You are a Queen, I told her. BE one! Dress like one (Diana, not Elizabeth!). Walk like one. Enter a room like one. Be as you would want to be when you are singing before a full orchestra and in front of the President.

You don't need to hear the whole lecture here. Grandparents have much more connection to children of this age than parents do. There has been a remarkable change in this child already. We just need to show them what it is that they, themselves, Want to focus on and achieve.

We need to teach our daughters and granddaughters to be aware of themselves as valuable in their womanhood, too valuable to flaunt themselves like merchandise. But Diana? Princes Di? Anorexic, clothes obsessed, promiscuous Di? Surely we need another example!

Hey, SWN, I was strictly comparing Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe to Diana's.

I would Not want this 15 year old to dress like Elizabeth!

And dress was All I was talking about in that comparison.

You are right about the rest of it!

Good morning to all from me, the one who has returned from Maine again without seeing a moose. Sigh. I'll catch one some day. To see, that is.

I have read rapidly through the posts and see that we are off to a flying start.

I'll get going slowly. One of the very first things I noticed in this book is on the first page. Dinah is pronounced "Dee nah" in the novel. "Maybe you heard it in the music of my name: the first vowel high and clear, as when a mother calls to her child at dusk; the second sound soft, for whispering secrets on pillows. Dee-nah." (1) I am always happy to be given the pronunciation of a character's name in a novel since I am so likely to go astray if it is an unfamiliar name.

How different Dee-nah is from DI-nah, which is how Americans normally pronounce the name.

Second thing I noticed was "Leah's vision was perfect" (11) which is followed by a description of Leah's eyes, one blue, the other green. This struck me because one of the translations of the Bible has "Leah's eyes were weak"--the King James perhaps. Scholars have had fun with just what the meaning of the Hebrew is in this description. The New Jerusalem Bible has "Leah had lovely eyes, but Rachel was shapely and beautiful, and Jacob had fallen in love with Rachel." (Gen 29:17).

And one last thing. I think several people have already mentioned this, but I will repeat it nonetheless. The women's menstrual cycles seem to have coalesced so that they are in tune with each other as well as with the new moon. Thus all the women are in the Red Tent at the same time.

More later. Maryal

Hi, Maryal, Welcome back! Don't you like the sound of DEE-NAH better? To me it rings truer, besides it reminds me of the wonderful way Danny Kaye used to sing that song, to his daughter, I believe?

Alf: If I were to choose which of the mothers I would want to spend the most time with, Leah would win hands down. Nothing could go wrong in those capable hands.

Mary Page: I liked the sound of the advice you gave your granddaughter. I sense a real rapport there. Perhaps she doesn't view you, at that age, as her "enemy", as she does her mother?

I've been thinking a great deal about Betty's post, and I couldn't agree more that there's a real need for a sisterhood of women coming together, telling truths that their forebears never did. And I don't think your dream is impossible, Betty. I believe we're approaching the point where we can sit down and hold the same kind of conversation with men as we do with other women. You already optimistically pointed out examples, like your brother, and our own Charlie here. A good point made..

Hi Lorrie---Ah yes, I like the sound of Dee nah much better. When I hear DI nah (no offense to any Dinahs out there intended), I always think of the song with "Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah, someone's in the kitchen I knoohohoho. . . "

I have known a number of Diana's and Diane's in my life, but I have yet to meet a Dinah. Perhaps I will yet.

Maryal

My ears like Di-nah better, and I thought This was what the long high note and soft ending meant!

I have known some Dinas (pronounced Dee-nah), and then there is Dina Merrill, movie actress daughter of Marjorie Merriweather Post, but Dinah to me should be Di-nah, as in Dinah Shore.

And if Anyone here does not remember That name, you are not really a Senior and Get Out Of Here!

I suppose everyone read my post about my mom and sisters and i becoming sychoronized every time we stayed in the same house very many months...Also my daughter was laughing about it in college because all the girls on her dorm floor were the same having their periods sychoronize . Then latter in the 70's I think, the "male" scientest took over and decided to find out why, and came up with the idea it was the pheranomes in sweat that did cause a chemical switch a roo ...I know it happens I am not all that sure that is the reason why.

American Indians had the "tent" concept. They called it a Moon Lodge and all tribes had some version of it. I formed a Moon Lodge once of my group therapy sisters and took them on a camping trip. We had a very good time. It is sort of the next step in my story of the Vision Quest.

My favorite was Dinah and I loved all the Mothers as she did as I learned to love them through her eyes, and responses to them. They were each an aspect of Motherhood we all need. fp

Just want to let y'all know I'm here and haven't abandoned the discussion. I'm under a lot of pressure work-wise right now and once this show got on the road, I didn't have time to keep up! I'm reading your posts but I'm only up to about No. 165 so far. I really appreciate the enhancements several of you have brought to the discussion.

I'm still around, and I might have something to say once I catch up!

When you have four mothers, all of them are not worn out and tired of you at the same time, particularly when you are the only girl. Dinah is very special to all her mothers because of her sex, a true reversal of the patriarchal view of things at this time period. I think that is neat. It was special to her to be so special.

What did you all think about the ritual that follows Dinah's first menstrual period? I don't think I am misreading here, but I am curious as to what everyone thought happened.

Maryal

Pretty gross stuff, Maryal. Dinah was "out of it" from much wine, then her hymen was broken with who knows what kind of foreign object---triangle shaped something on the end of it? Do I remember this right? Ah, the things done to women's bodies in the name of tradition.

As I researched the symbolism of the various names in the story I discovered that the basic Bible account could be described as JACOB'S QUEST TO BECOMING A HIGHER BEING. That using sex as the literary symbol of power, its assertive, aggressive, submissive, restrictive or dispiriting qualities was an allegory to further understanding what the author is saying, rather than just seeing the story line behavior as a loving or abusive act.

As I researched the Gods and Goddesses the research brought me down an amazing path that has clarified for me so much of the continuation of ancient societies and the differences of power observed in our lives today. This allowed me to look closely at the WOMAN in the RED TENT and to see what I am calling a parallel story of the LOSS OF THE RED TENT or rather, THE LOSS OF WOMAN'S EMPOWERMENT! This loss I see is prompted by the many acts of abuse that are entwined in the story side by side with the celebration of sisterhood and support of woman edified in writing that is enlisting our emotions and allowing us to bask in the glory of womanhood.

In earlier posts when the abuse was not given importance and, to learn a group of educated influential woman did not see the theme of abuse in the book my heart fluttered in panic. At first I was angry and than hurt that this is being denied, thinking, as in the book "we are no better than Laban." Gradually I realized, that is the shame of being a woman continuously fostered on us over five millenniums.

OK this is how I am sharing my many posts--

The historical research of place and gods,
the view of the acceptance of these Gods in the Bible
the timing of Patriarchy.
The literary understanding of power, motive and maturity.

Finally, not only an overall summery of the community within and surrounding the RED TENT in addition, later today, a summery of how I see specifically the characteristics of the four sisters and how they reinforced the symbolism of dis-empowerment of woman.

The Ancient Near East-- from the Indus Valley to the Mediterranean, plus Egypt and Greece. Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Egyptians, Hebrews, Persians, Christians, and Greeks.

Mesopotamia, the area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Assyria, the northern portion of Mesopotamia; Sumer, the southern delta region, primary cities included Ur, (Abraham moves from Ur to Canaan c.2100BC) Uruk, and Eridu. Akkad, north of Sumer included the area around modern Baghdad as well as the ancient site of Babylon.

The religion of the ancient Sumerians mark the entire middle east. After a period of foreign intrusion and political fragmentation, Ur-Nammu, King of Ur (2112-2095 B.C.) unifies Sumer and Akkad. He and his successors build a complex and far-reaching bureaucracy which maintained strict control over the realm, building temples and ziggurats that are still scattered about the region. Sumerian writing was emphasized. The literature and rituals influenced the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition today. Through hymns, myths, lamentations, and incantations, archaeologists and mythographers we have a glimpse into the religion of the Sumerians.

El, king of the gods (El means "God"), a fertility god, represented by a bull or a man wearing a helmet with bull horns. He lives on Har Mo'ed "the mount of assembly", or "the mount of the North." The Hebrews called this "the place of the last battle" or Armageddon. This is the first God mentioned in the RED TENT, and described as a demanding, God of Thunder. This could be Laban's God that Adah breaks its horns on p.20

Dagon, fertility god, rain/water god, grain god. He doesn't appear in Canaanite mythology. (Samson destroyed the Temple of Dagon). Dagon is probably El's brother.

Baal (son of Dagon) is a young, impetuous fertility god, with bull horns on his helmet or as a calf. He is also a storm god. "He Who Mounts the Clouds." The clouds are called "the heavenly herd of cows." "Baal" = "lord." He is called "Lord Prince" or "Baal Zebul" (- Beelzebub, Hebrew for "Lord of the Insects" - "Lord of the Flies")

Asherah, in the Ugaritic texts is the consort of El and is called "Mother of the 70 Gods" (all of them). She is El's best friend and loving consort AND his bitterest enemy. She is the goddess of love and hate, the mother goddess. She is shown as the Tree of Life. Asherah or Asheroth was a beloved household Goddess of the Hebrews and the Canannites (now known as Palestinians). Originally as the Bread of life, Asherah is over 4000 years old. She is a Canaanite fertility goddess and the wooden cult symbol that represented her stood beside Yahweh's alter. She is beautiful and likes being single. The power and presence of Ashera was invoked during childbirth and at planting time. The Greeks referred to her as Astarte, a moon goddess. The Greeks had Hera (As[hera]h), Athena (from Anat), Aphrodite (from Ashtoreth). The Egyptians made Isis from Asherah and Hathor from Anat/Ashtoreth. The medieval Catholic developed the cult of the Virgin Mary. All are inspired by Inanna/Ishtar

Ninmah or Ninhursag-- was an ancient Sumerian 'mother of the gods,' and 'mother of all children.' It was Ninhursag who was midwife to Nammu at the creation of man. She represents the innert procreative power of the mother which, though powerful, requires the union of the male force to be brought to its full potential. This was not to diminish her role, but simply a recognition that neither the female nor the male alone was a fully procreative force.

Utu ("Shamash"), "shamash" means "sun." (A "shamash" candle lights the menorah.) Utu is the Judge of the Gods, immensely wise and inescapable (because the sun is always watching). He is tremendously powerful. (Shamash is depicted giving Hammurabi the Code of Law). He is depicted holding either a comb (to separate the truth from the lie) or a saw (to cut through to the truth).

Dumuzi, "Son of the Abyss," the ever-dying, ever-reviving Sumerian prototype of the resurrected savior, was a harvest god of ancient Mesopotamia. Also called "the shepherd" and "lord of the sheepfolds." Dumuz, is the son-husband of the goddess Gula-Bau seen sitting in front of the serpent in a relief "Goddess of the Tree of Life" ca. 2500 B.C. Dumuzi’s mother was an ancestor of Gilgamesh, consort of Ianna (Ishtar).

Gula (Gula-Bau) goddess of Healing. A mother goddess, with the power to inflict or to cure disease. She lived in a garden at the center of the world, and watered the tree that forms its axis. One of the primary goddesses of the Babylonian people. Ninurta (Orion) in the Epic of Gilgamesh helps to flood the earth by throwing down the dykes and breaking dams. Here Gula helped breathe life into mankind. She is the patroness of herbs, healing, life, as her flowered garment shows. Hands lifted in prayer, she sits with her dog, defender of homes, while before her a Scorpion Archer mounts guard at the uttermost bound of the earth (cosmic sea), to defend against demonic powers and protect the rising and setting sun. Gula sounds like our Dinah in the garden of Nakht-re.

Nanshe's father Enki (Akkadian: Ea) organized the universe and placed her in charge of fish and fishing. Nanshe was also a divine "Interpreter of Dreams," (Babylonian) who gave her priests the ability to interpret and prophesy from other men’s dreams. The priests acquired this ability after undergoing an initiation ceremony of descent into her "pit."

Abaddon, The god Apollo was the solar god during the day, and the Lord of Death in the underworld at night. His latter form became the Jewish Apollyon, Spirit of the Pit (Revelation 9:11). Apollo-Python was the serpent deity in the Pit of the Delphi oracle. Abaton a Greek word for Pit, which the Hebrews changed to Abaddon, which later became synonymous with the Christian hell.

Abaton, was a real pit, placed under or in temples. Those who entered "incubated" or slept there overnight in magical imitation of the incubatory sleep of the womb, to be visited by an "incubus" who brought prophet dreams. Upon receiving their powers Assyrian priests put on the priestly coat of many colors, signifying communion with the Goddess Nanshe.

Well I often wondered where the theory of woman as the Lorelie began. Looks like this is also basic to the belief still prevalent that woman are justifiably murdered because of suspected sexual unions out-side of marriage.

Inanna, daughter of Nanna also (Babylonian) "Ishtar." Goddess of fertility, lust, and of love as well as, the goddess of hate, war, and slaughter.

Love between a man and a woman was considered a form of insanity (passion). This kind of love leads to irrational behavior. Passion is a driving emotion which cannot be overcome. To be struck by this goddess meant complete insanity. Therefore, one shouldn't make any serious decisions in this state of mind (e.g., marriage). There was therefore ample provision for divorce in Sumerian society, because, it was understood that the insanity would eventually pass. Inanna shoots barbed arrows. If one of the spouses does not wish to be divorced, it was justifiable to effect the divorce "Italian Style" (murder); this was considered a crime of passion. The passionate insanity of love was considered an acceptable defense for murder.

Hate is equally passionate and powerful (e.g., Euripides's "Medea.") The worst thing that can happen to a man is to be noticed by Inanna who will immediately want to have an affair with him, after which she will kill him. If he refuses her, she will kill him anyway. She is irresistibly beautiful and totally self-centered. She always holds a grudge and never forgives. Men were always positive that women were scheming to get them and that they used magical charms to do it. (In Celtic folklore, women were said to have "cast a glamour" meaning that a woman's beauty is an illusion.) [One of the three major revolutions of civilization was the medieval advent of courtly love, when the woman became an object of adoration.

Taueret; Greek Thoueris, Thoeris, Toeris; "The Great One." Egyptian hippopotamus goddess and protective deity of childbirth. She is depicted with the head of a hippopotamus, the legs and arms of a lion, the tail of a crocodile, human breasts, and a swollen belly. This appearance was meant to frighten off any spirits that might be harmful to the child. Taweret was most popular among ordinary Egyptians. Pregnant women commonly wore amulets bearing her image.

I found many web sites where arguments raged as to whether the Christian church and the Bible sanctioned or acknowledged early people worshipping Gods and Goddess and their Teraphim versus, those that determined it was an abomination that the Bible was explaining the rooting out of this practice. One site was between two Catholic priests-- an argument so fierce that if they were face to face the verbiage would incite blows.

Archaeology gives a perspective that the Bible alone cannot give. There is much disagreement as to the exact period the so called ‘Patriarchal Age’ fits. Some scholars opt for a first millennium date, most hold to the early 2nd millennium. Evidence has been found for Abraham in the Middle Bronze age (2 100 - 1 900 BC.) with the Amorite migrations of this period, that he was a donkey caravaner who plied his trade in Canaan.

The Children of Israel, called Habiru ('displaced people') 'Hebrew.' They wandered in the northern Arabian Desert for 50-100 years. While there, they knew the only way they could be safe was to emphasize their blood-related kinship. Each tribe was ruled by the oldest grandfather in the tribe who was the ruler and high priest (a patriarchy). This was known as the TIME OF THE PATRIARCHS.

There was much tribal disunity. The elders brought the tribes together, by taking a Canaanite god from their past, an ancient fertility god named Yaw, and developed Yhwh. Not permitted to pronounce his name aloud, they used instead the name Tetragrammaton, "The Four-Letter Thing." Because they couldn't speak his name, they called him Elohim, or "Gods" (Canaanite), the Hebrew word for "lord," Adonai, and they used vowels to make Yahowah, which in English became Jehovah. The correct translation is Yahweh.

THE first that we know of the Hebrew Yahveh, is his appearance to Abram at Haran, telling him to move west to the land of Canaan. (Gen. xii, 1-3). With Abram we get our first Biblical initiation into the religion of the Semitic people and knowledge of their worship of El, Bel, or Baal.

In the Hebrew language, there is no word meaning "religion." The nearest approximation is the phrase "the fear of Yahveh." This priest-inspired fear was the only basis for the hated Yahveh—cult, which the priests strove to impose on the Asherah and Baal-worshipping Israelites, who "feared Yahveh, and served their own gods" (2 Kings xvii, 33, 39), and "did not believe in Yahveh their God" (xvii, 14). As the "official" state worship became increasingly male oriented, Asherah was forcibly removed from the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture just as Jacob forcibly removes the teraphims. Jacob uses an ax. An ax is symbolic of the Sky God, Thunder, power, sovereignty, conquest.

To me this was amazing information that helped me put so much in percpective!

A grammar of Motives by Kenneth Burke, 517 pages are occupied with the basic forms of thought within the cultural, political world that we all experience and are exemplified as; the act, the scene or background of the act, the purpose, who, how and why, and are present in poetry, fiction, in news, gossip, legal, political, and scientific structure.

According to Aristotle, all things are full of Gods recognizing there is power or motive in everything.

Stemming from a time when fire was 'the power', the new power is the cult of Prometheus, the rites of Vestal Virgins. A natural force of reproduction with a vocabulary of fire.

Later there was weapon or implement or art descending from God. Art, weaponry, implements as an agent possessing divine heroic powers.

Animism, animals possessing a spirit that can transcend its power.

Tribal rituals rather than nature was 'THE POWER.' This is the beginning of tribal identity, the question and search of the fathers. The Jehovah Tribal Deity.

The next step humanity discovers the concept of an agent behind the natural phenomenon. A Creator, magic, something out of nothing. the Greeks said, "God is raining" rather then it is raining. Goddesses were not worshipped for their beauty but because of the force of their power.

Nature is a 'given' but the environment is the creation of our agents. Technology becomes the power or force or motive. The primary characteristic is generating and creating cities, which causes the splitting of mankind into classes.

Money, further distinguishes class, nation, cultural traditions. Money is not only an agent of power but is a rational ground of action. Example: we think of freedom lost if we loose the free market economy. Monetary power is conditional to and thought to be consistent with physical, sexual, moral, intellectual, causing negotiations among many diversities of motive. Jacob and his tribe from the desert have less power where cities classify people by wealth and education. Agent is not possessing the soul but is an active force.

The triad Love, Knowledge and Authority

Man made forces of production and technology is the maturity of the intellect-- at its noblest is wisdom and reason, now reduced to research, communication, organizing of data.

The second arm of a the triad is reproduction. The tribal order of food and growth culminating in the emotion of Love-- the nursing child, the nursing mother, promise of food, coupling, sex, feasts, harvest, seasons, plenty, guzzling from a joy.

Overlapping intellectual power and love is authority-- law, inducement, order, compulsion, petition, tyranny, freedom, duty, submission, revolt. The power of authority - motivates slavery. Authority includes; the originator, father or ancestry, the inventor or creator, and the head or leader.

The overlapping areas of Love, Intelligence and authority become areas of conflict, aiding a disillusionment of justice seen in the conflict of act, substance, person.

The Illiad is devoid of political equality. When authority was vested in the clan, the tribe obeyed. To nineteenth-century multiplicity, a renoucement of the familial sense of tribal identity, the force became education as a rebirth ritual, accelerating consumption. Where as, Love, Knowledge, Authority in exaltation, ideally, stand in mutual and mature re-enforcement regardless of the source of power or force.

Now I get it-- when groups produce and reproduce they need to by organized or governed. With authority is the division of people that often results in a form of slavery or at minimum obediance to a rule or law often determined by a few. With education and wisdom individuals often rebel or revolt rather then submit to the rule created by the privaledged, and that rule is seen by those dis-empowered as tyranny.

Wow, Barbara, what research! You get so much OUT of every book because you put so much INTO it, wow, I learned a lot from reading that.

ginny

The Red Tent symbolizes many of these sensual and emotionally charged issues of unique femeinine traits, many of which Barb has researched. This is where women are honored for their strength and beauty. The women of Haran... AD tells us The tent is red because of the sun and the flowing blood. Thusly, Dinah narrates her own story of that unknown legion-- God's women! The oldest story becomes so true and vivid.

Faith, I too kept referring back to the "moon tent" while reading this novel. She who Remembers is a wonderful book that speaks of these observances and ceremonies.

Katie: Join us whenever you are able to. We all understand the pressures inherent in the "working world." (Yuk-- what a word)

Maryal and Betty: the "ritual" as you've called it gave me the creeps. I understood "giving the blood back " to Inanna more fully after reading Barbs post re. that. However, this welcome to young women by celebrating life that comes from between their legs left me a bit queasy. Intoxicated and lulled into a "warm, foggy" dream-like state, the blood was given back into the earth dust, a sacrifice to the Queen of Heaven-- the covenent of earth, blood and sky. Imagine mothers doing THAT in todays world.

I question whether our author was taking into account all of this symbolism, or whether she just set out to tell the story of this woman as it might have been. I have no doubt she did a complete examination of the Hebrew scripture and tradition. But I hate to think that every thought or action of every person in the story is fraught with symbolism.

I'm afraid I am the sort of person to whom "a thing is a thing is a thing", and I take most things at face value.

I think we may be both under and over-rating the ritual. It was certainly a ceremonial recognition that a girl had become a woman, something rather sadly lacking in our society, in fact, a source of shame for girls trying to cope with their first period. It would be nice if first menses could be a recognition of changed status accepted without embarrassment. The sacrifice to the goddess is perhaps appropriate.

It was perhaps also a way to insure that lack of virginity was protected. In the middle ages a woman could be put to death if she did not bleed on her wedding night. In some places the sheets were actually publicly displayed. I suppose clever non-virgins made sure to have a little animal blood available for the occasion.

In this regard, what a witch Rebecca was! Not all the cruelty was confined to the male part of the population.

Mary Page, I'm with you. There's one thing that confuses me. In those days, didn't they have any kind of wedding ceremonies? As far as I could see, after paying the barter price, the husband simply took his new bride into his tent. When Dinah "lay down" with Shalem, in the contrived situation by his mother, there was no ceremony or nuptials, and later, when she became Benia's wife, she simply moved her things into his place. Later on, in the New Testament, Jesus even attended weddings. It's not too important----I was just curious.

Lorrie

Wow, Barbara--talk about research. I found the parts about the various gods that were worshipped in the land most pertinent to this novel. Several of them, Asherah and El plus El Shaddai and Elohim, are mentioned in the Bible. You get a real sense of the polytheism that was in many cultures when Rachel steals her father's household gods, those little terraphim made from wood or clay.

As to the ritual of the breaking of Dinah's hymen so that her virgin blood would go back to the Mother--Earth rather than to any man, I find that very powerful. Think about all those stories in various cultures of the displaying of the bridal sheet from the wedding night with blood on it to prove that the marriage has been consumated and that the wife was a virgin. Now that is gross!

It is no wonder that Dinah enjoys her lovemaking with Shechem so much. She is not sore and can fully enjoy this man that she loves (as imagined, of course, by Diamant).

MaryPage--Like you, I tend to go easy on the symbolism, but that is just the way I read. I am a literalist first and foremost. Later, I might move to symbolic levels if the text supports them. I tread gently around symbols. Or possible symbols.

ALF--I certainly cannot imagine the ritual being performed by women today, but I find it powerful and meaningful in the novel.

SWN--I like what you noted about protecting lack of virginity. Among the women in Dinah's group, there would not be any virginity after first menses.

Lorrie--We are way back in the prehistoric days of the patriarchs in this story. Your question about the wedding ceremony and if there was one is a good one. I suspect that whatever ceremony there was was simple.

Ginny--And what do you think about the ritual to celebrate Dinah's menses?

One final thought, circumcism was, for Hebrew men, the sign of the covenant with Yahweh. Seems to me that Diamant has come up with a parallel rite for women. Sort of.

~Maryal

Apparently no wedding ceremony. The bride was not important. The important thing was the bride price the father got.

"I'll buy your daughter for 20 sheep and 20 goats."

"Make that 25 of each and we have a deal."

"Very well. Twenty-five of each it is."

"Sold! Bring the bride price here next Tuesday, and she is all yours!"

This way that it was done for untold centuries is still present in our wedding ceremonies of today, and I, for one, resent it!

"Who GIVETH this woman?" And the father or uncle or brother "gives" her to the groom!

Hey, not me! I gave MYSELF to MY husband! None of that patriarchy for me!

While I'm usually in the literalist mode, I needed to know more about various gods referenced in the book and how they are related to our present concept of "God." Also, I know just what you mean, Barbara. You've created a more palatable context in which to think about the book. Such fascinating historical threads of so many things we still believe "natural" about a woman or man. My dissertation study found that male AND female psychologists continue to use the word "seductive" liberally and inappropriately when describing female patients' behavior and in other ways sexualize an array of behaviors in female but not male patients. There were seemingly endless historical sources for these (multiple) perceptions of "seductive"-ness----so I was thrilled to see you found another. "....scheming, magical charms...,"etc.

Barbara I found your reasearch fascinating. Many of the references you made are ones I have come across in various reading. I have never seen it all put together in such a way, a method of examining a "fiction" novel. Now like someone else said, I dont read with one eye out for symbolism but if it is there and fits into other concepts I have of course I notice it. I just don't have the kind of mind that could analize like Barb does. It is a delight to read her posts. And instructive. I have read much of so called Goddess literature written by various Femenists but none where they interpreted/recounted the symbolism as Barb did.

Now as to the ritual at the girls first menses I think everyone hit it on the head when they say this protects the girl when she marries as it is a given she will not have a hymen.Therefore no test to pass. There is also another purpose here that struck me in my cynacism about family incest. If the mother did this she herself could ascertain if her daughter had been "tampered with" prior to menses. And warn the daughter to cease any such activity because of impending pregnacy...Women and Men blame little girls for being seductive. Fp

I feel the need to explain how I see symbolism as an important key to understanding what an author is trying to say. I think the use of a symbol as an allagory is natural. The more historical context we have for various symbols as cultural icons the easier they are do dredge up without a lot of thought.

Example: Let's make up a story of an older gentleman who rushes to save someone whose car is on fire. His lack of stregth makes it difficult to open the door of the burning vehicle. A crowd observing thinks what a foolish old man, why doesn't he stand away, he will also be burned, why not wait for the fire department to show up. Many in the crowd have seen this older gentleman at the grocery market filling his basket with his cereals and bananas, musing over the price of hamburger and stocking up on vitamens.

The next day his picture in the newspaper and the picture alone says it all. It was the older gentleman walking in the Memorial Day Parade with his Army hat on and pinned to his chest is not only the Purple Heart but his Medal of Valor recieved on Guadalcanal, side by side with a photo of him as a young soldier in his uniform. Those symbols mean much to us today. Now those nay sayers in the crowd reading this article have a different concept of the man. The news artical gives a picture of a man of courage and social responsibility regardless of his age and his examining the cost of hamburger.

Just as we know someone with a crown on their head is an authority figure. In ancient times other symbols were used to assign status. Just as signs outside the barbar or butcher when we were children identified what the owner was skilled to do, so to the ancients had their symbols. I personally do like and get a kick out of looking at a story, after I've swallowed the plot and background, in order to examine the symbols for, often an education in learning the meaning of more symbols but more often, the symbols in the story give me a deeper understanding of the issues the author is addressing. We all enjoy a book differently don't we and that has been the joy I find in our discussing the books here on seniornet.

Oh Sue your post hit a spot of sadness for me.

It was perhaps also a way to insure that lack of virginity was protected. In the middle ages a woman could be put to death if she did not bleed on her wedding night. In some places the sheets were actually publicly displayed. I suppose clever non-virgins made sure to have a little animal blood available for the occasion.

I rmember my mother explaining how she had to come up with this elaborate tale to satisfy her reputation. The tale had her falling on a pipe as a young child when in fact she was raped as a child.

And YES Maryal!

As to the ritual of the breaking of Dinah's hymen so that her virgin blood would go back to the Mother--Earth rather than to any man, I find that very powerful.

I understand that as woman in the last 25 years have been regaining the power over their bodies, not only are many using a nurse practitioner or even a mid-wife for childbirth but the freedom of sex we see among woman has to do with their owning when and how the hymen is broken rather than feeling tyrannized by a social rule that gives the opening of their body to sex only to a first husband. Maybe if we all knew of the ritual of the frog surrounded by aunts and our mother and possibly grandmother, we would be glorifying again in our womanhood.

Alf - "God's women!" hehehe after reading how much of our current Christian faith is centered in the Gods and Goddessess of ancient Mesopotamia I am now wondering if identifying the Goddess within would better help us celebrate our womanhood rather than thinking of ourselves in relation to a belief that Christians, Jews, and Moslems alike have for millennia believed-- a solitary male God known by his Hebrews name, Yahweh. Especially now that we have learned that recent work in the heart of the Holy Land is revealing a different story: one of a dual partnership between Yahweh and his wife, the Canaanite goddess, Asherah. The new evidence rocks the very foundation of the Judeo- Christian tradition.

I really like this statement that I copied from some site that I no longer remember which one.

Honoring the Goddess can teach us to celebrate all the stages of life. An awareness that the Goddess lives in you, can strengthen inner knowings about life, love, nature, nurturing and creativity. Women who are deeply connected with their Goddess essence are better able to make desired changes in themselves, their communities, and the world.

For men, a connection with the Goddess allows them to accept and acknowledge their desire and need for nurturing, protection and the acceptance of a loving female presence. Claiming the Goddess energy within himself, helps a man to be a more balanced lover, companion and father. It also frees men from the cultural pressure to always be in control. Many Christians and Jews have learned to balanced their reverence for both God and Goddess divinity quite successfully.

Sorry about this, but just as I don't like the term "opposite" in opposite sex or such phrases as "war of the sexes," I also don't much like the opposite sounding attributes of god and goddess. I don't really see specific behaviors/attitudes/attributes as masculine or feminine. Being a good listener isn't a feminine thing, per se; it's a good human thing. Being bold and brave isn't "masculine." It's healthy. So, I never have warmed to the goddess movement/books/ideas.

Oh dear Betty yes! I too agree with you, that opposite is not palatable. I think you'll find though that many a Goddess is fierce, protective and not necessarily filled with the characteristics that woman have adapted to be 'good' or thought 'well of' or required to take care of ourselves in sometimes a hostile world. As in the explanation for the Goddess Ninhursag or Ninmah who represts the innert procreative power of the mother which, though powerful, requires the union of the male force to be brought to its full potential. This was not to diminish her role, but simply a recognition that neither the female nor the male alone was a fully procreative force.

My thought is and yes, it may only be my thought, that to combine again the powers and worship of Yahveh side by side with the Goddess within-- similar to Gula who breathed life into man and is the patroness of herbs or Asherahas the "Bread of Life" and not to create a war of opposites. Since we know so little about these Goddesses, I am anxious to learn of their power and secrets.

Gail T: Where are you? I need your address to send you the tape about "The Lost Tribes of Israel." Have sent you an email.

Lorrie

Wow! This book really has it all, doesn't it? Like so many Bible stories it has all the ingredients for a smashing hit. Romance that tears at your heartstrings, family disfunctions laid bare, murder most foul, (and in an especially graphic way) polygamy, almost incest, curses hurled at the miscreants, and a really great climax! Great!

Lorrie

Betty opposites of characteristics such as strong vs weak or gentle vs harsh I agree this is a sad and ineffectual way to try to differentiat Male and Female but we should admit the tremedous and essential differences between the Male and the Female.

Science is finding more genetic difference everyday, but at the same time confirming that there still is more genetic sameness between the sexes. Generally I take the view that nature is served very well, and procreation and survival of the species by the two sex reproduction style of Primates. Culturally we have still a big gap in practice to what we know in theory that both men and women need the freedom from stereotyping in order to grow to their full potential.

We need to celebrate children as they are. and I am so hopeful as I look down the generations and see my great grandchildren with all the wonderful potential intact still at preschool leval. I talk to the parents about the schools and the system of learning. I dont care if they have purple hair .or a ring in their nose. I watch World View channel every morning early and I see school children in many parts of the world with entirely different designs on them than on my grandchildren but they are all the same generation and it is their world now.

I did the big apple and wore shoes with out socks and my mother cut her braids off and my grandmother thought she would go to hell, then a year later she cut her braids off I hope my grandchildren can focus on improving society in other ways than demanding conformity in outward appearance which is what churchs do. I think they do it so they can have a quick reference point to pigeon hole some one. Like putting children in uniform at school. I for one do not want pigeonholed minds in my grandchildren, boys and girls. FP

We should be able to have a myriad of points of view here without anyone needing to explain themselves.

If I offer a counter point, I am neither attempting to be contrary nor attempting to "win" the lead in the discussion.

I love the lovely different colors of the strands of our thinking.

That being said, I have had a difficult time in my lifetime Not seeing the obvious differences between male and female.

After 3 sweet little girly girls, it was with astonishment I produced a son whose first deliberate sounds were those of a truck. At 7 months, he was crawling to brrrrrumm, burrrrummm, Burrrruuuum all over the floor. By the time he was 2, he was calling out from the back seat of the car the name of every type of vehicle we passed. He even said Volkswagon! We could not figure out where he assimilated this information, especially as I only knew the Buicks that had portholes and the Volkswagon myself! To this day, I cannot pick out models and manufacturers.

He could not focus on anything at all that he distained, such as washing his hands or cleaning his room. Yet he would sit for HOURS filling sheets of paper with tiny, crowded statistics of baseball games in every league all over this nation. He did not care for the children's books I loved, but collected and read every volume (over 40 of them!) of the Time Life WWII series. He did not have a clue about his homework, but could spurt out Any baseball statistic from any year and any team and any player on the spur of the moment. No one could stump him!

I could go on and on, but I am convinced, bottom line, that the differences are great and are deep and that we almost amount to two different species.

One last point here: I was determined my son was not going to be the spoiled, pampered, worshipped being my father and brother were. And he was not. He had to do all the things the girls had to do, and at the same ages. If he wanted, forinstance, to have French Toast for breakfast, when that was not what I was serving that day, he had to make it himself. I can still picture that 7 year old standing up on a chair on the sink counter side mixing the eggs in a bowl, then moving the chair over to the stove and standing on it to fry his egged pieces of bread!

There is Nothing domestic my son cannot do. Yet, I tell you, he is a Different Species!

hehehe MaryPage wonderful - I love it - yes there are differences - what bothers me though is that because of those differences for so long in the name of patriarchy the authority has not been balanced and the authority seems to have even determined that, the what?-- values!-- no, the distinction-- the distinctions that made Goddesses, a Goddess were not valued enough to be on an equal with the masculine expression of God.

This sort of reminds me of a group learning game that I tought years ago-- Three participants were asked to be seperate from the larger group. One was handed 5 envelopes that each had several pieces of a jig saw puzzle and that person was in charge of distributing envelopes without words, the other two were asked to take notes and watch and note how each participant acted as they all tried silently to put the puzzle together.

Of course one person usually could see the in their heads the completed puzzle and started to work furiously so that often, the others backed away and let her have at it. There were also the approipriate nudges to let someone know they had the needed piece, on and on. BUT what was remarkable, the one giving out the envelopes never joined in! That person being given that task thought they were the leader which ment, they oversaw but, did not join in the group effort of putting the puzzle together.

Well, that distributer of puzzles pieces reminds me of what many authority figures do-- which has the affect of classifying the value of work versus, overseeing. With overseeing usually came some judgement that was shared when those that were given that task to note the participants behavior started to share their findings.

So now I am wondering, if judging others and classifying the value of actions comes with the territory when you are in a position of authority? And also, so many boy children are raised to believe that their lot in life will put them in a position of authority.

In our story Jacobs boy children seemed to do more judging and classifying and sharing their opinion than Jacob. Jacob noticed but didn't share his judgment of what he noticed. Dinah was a noticer and so was Bilhah and Zilpah was a big time noticer. Laban sure noticed especially what Jacob did and he used what he noticed as a bargining tool which, come to think of it, that is what Jacob did with the affects or products or value of what he noticed.

I would be very surprised if there wasn't some form of marriage service. I don't know about primitive societies, but in tribal societies there is almost always some kind of public committment following delivery of the dowry. In the middle ages, the wife was entitled to get her dowry back if there were a divorce. If she joined a convent, the convent got the dowry.

Incidentally, we teased one of our prospective sons-in-law about giving us a bride price (this man was a doctoral student and poorer than a churchmouse) because our daughter was a valuable womam. Imagine our surprise when he handed over a letter envelope full of TINY animals on the wedding day. We have them still; the marriage has endured through medical school (for her), three children, and a massive remodeling of their house. Guess it's permanent!

Isn't anyone else interested in Rebecca? We are not given any detailed character development, but her use of power is certainly as savage as some of the male characters.

SWN I did notice Rebbeccas power and remarked on it when we first began posting. She represents the true Matriarch and when used like I am using it it means The female authority. As most societies have developed the female is not the authority but with in the scheme of family there is a female authority and . In fact I venture that Female Heads of Housholds are rapidly approaching majority. This will definitly have an effect on the formation of what is male that is cultural not genetic.

For instance Maryp son cookes as does my son and also my son wanted his jeans and kakis pressed so I taught him how to use an iron at around 12 years old and he then did his own ironing. And cooked for the girls if they ask him to. The changes will show up in the generation born from about 1990 on as the parents of these children are born and raised in world more aware of femenist agenda's than any previous "modern world" generation. And the fathers were raised by Maryp son and my son and millions of others who were more natural about the changes than their fathers and so the sons and grandsons too will be more adapted to new thinking.

As the politics between men and women change so will the need for Power or Authority over the family change. Maybe go from a God/King family politic to a Democratic family politic.

One of the parts of this novel that I really love is the one where Dinah returns home after staying with her grandmother, Sarai, at Mamre.

"Although I had longed for home every moment of my absence, I was shocked by it when I arrived. Nothing was as I remembered it. My brothers, my father, and all of the other men had become impossibly crude and brutish. They grunted rather than spoke, scratched themselves and picked their noses, and even relieved themselves in plain sight of the women. And the stink!

The noise of the camp was overwhelming, too. Barking dogs, bleating sheep, crying babies, and screaming women. How was it that I had never noticed the way they all shrieked at each other and at the children? Even my own mother was changed. Every word out of her mouth was critical, demanding, and imperious. Everything had to be done her way, and nothing I did was good enough." (167)

Until this point in the book, we don't get these impressions of the camp at all. We notice them only when Dinah does. One of the interesting things about choosing to have a first person narrator is that the author is limited to see through those eyes only.

Maryal

SWN Tennessee: I'm sure you're right. There must have been some sort of wedding rites, but perhaps the author didn't feel as though they added much. I like your little story about your son-in-law and the "bride price."

Mary P and Faith P: How great that you let your sons cook for themselves. I wish my mother had done that when we were children. We were definitely a "patriarchal" family, as Barbara wrote about so well, but even this late in history my sister and I were expected to wait on our brothers just as we did our father. You can imagine my amusement when I dropped bt my brother's place one time long after his marriage, and found him cooking dinner, and feeding their infant son! That would have been unheard of when living at home.

Maryal: I noticed that description of the camp, too! In a way, it points out the vast difference in the life styles Dinah was living when she landed in the cities, especially when they had their own place in The Valley of the Kings, wasn't it?

Incidentally, what can anyone tell me about the "Valley of the Kings?" Wasn't that where most of the pyramids were built as monuments to all the dead rulers of Egypt? I think they made a movie of that once.

Lorrie

Maryal, it was Dinah's grandmother, Rebecca. Sarai was already long dead.

Rebecca had her power because she was a famous oracle. This was the equivalent of being a psychic today. She had to be very careful and be good at it, or she would have been in Big trouble!

Hi, Yvonne: Were you trying to get in our tent? We'd love to have you join us. I sent you a link by email. Hope it helps. Try again.

Lorrie

Since before the discussion started(July 1st) I've clicked on hoping to "post" in order to become an honest woman since I've been lurking here for the last 6 to 8 months(and enjoying reading others viewpoints)--but by the time I"ve read down to the posting section I'm stymied by "what can I add?". But I'm compelled to be honest (by my definition) so---I found RED TENT a fast read with many interesting scenes described in today's vocabularly; some development of character;some strong fantasy(some fairey taled)but a piece of fiction. What has been exciting has been some readers responses to wanting more docuementation. Wish we could ask ADaimant if she had any basis for such things as the red tent itself..Have devoured the many web sites shared by B.St. Aubrey! This kind of sharing has been the springboard for my imagination. What year is today on the Hebrew calendar--the Muslim? Is there a comparable "story" in the Buddist or other oriental teachings? When a book makes you want to read more, it must be good! Yvonne

Welcome, Yvonne! I am so glad to see that you decided to post. I was wondering myself if there was some origin for the red tent. I do know that women who were menstruating were to separate themselves from men because they were ritually impure.

MaryPage---Right you are. REBECCA. Sarai was long out of the picture. Oooopsie.

Maryal

Hi, Yvonne! Welcome! And Good questions.

Lorrie

Among more religiously conservative readers, there's been some criticism about Diamant's straying from the biblical text.
"This book demonizes males of the biblical times," one man wrote to Amazon.com.
"It fits neatly into a radical feministic viewpoint." Another Amazon.com reader, a woman, disagreed. "It breathes life into the old story," she wrote. "I found myself crying when it was over."

Do you feel that the author has strayed too far from the biblical text? Do you, personally, feel that she has demonized males of those biblical times?

Lorrie

Lorrie---Really good questions! Since there is hardly anything to the Bible story, Diamant takes license with it. She does not really stray from the outline in Genesis except to add to it. Somewhere up above there ^ in the header--there is a reference to "midrash," which is essentially a story told to fill in the holes in the biblical story.

For example, I have always wondered how Sarah felt when Abraham took Isaac out to sacrifice him. Did she even know what God had asked Abraham to do? Did she beg her husband to spare their son? And what about when father and son returned home? Sarah just isn't mentioned in the Bible account.

I don't think the males come off all that badly in the book. Joseph is drawn with real love as are several other of the brothers, such as Reuben. Laban is no hero in the original story since he tricks Jacob by giving him Leah instead of Rachel and then makes Jacob work seven MORE years for Rachel. And Joseph's brothers in general? Remember that these are the same brothers who sell Joseph to the passing merchants and then tell his father that he is dead. Men who think that males come off badly in this novel ought to read Genesis.

Maryal

Lorrie an author is not obligated to write anything but her own book and within her own parameters which she sets.

People who disagree with those parmeters should just go write their own book.

She has not strayed from the bible if you accept that she is not writing a bible story.

She has not demonized men of the bible if you accept that she is writing a story about Dinah and her Mothers and Dinahs life not a story about the men of the bible.

Some critics critize the wrong thing / FP

Ok this is what I have discovered about the Jewish marriage ceremony:

Marriage, the uniting of two souls into one, is the oldest universal institution of humankind. Within Jewish tradition, marriage is both a commandment and the ideal human state. The Hebrew word for marriage is "kiddushin" (sanctification). The Hebrew word contains within it the root of the word "kadosh" (holy) thus elevating the union of man and woman into a divine, spiritual realm. The word also means separation. A man and woman separate themselves from the rest of the community, and each designates the other for his or her own, special, eternal companion. As a couple they become a new distinctive entity.

The Ceremonial Objects:

Chuppah: Wedding canopy under which the bride and groom stand during the marriage ceremony. It symbolizes the home that they will establish as husband and wife.

Ring: A symbol of the marriage transaction. In ancient times, coins were used by grooms to betrothe their brides, but since the eighth century a ring has been used in place of coins. By virtue of its roundness and wholeness, the ring represents eternity. As originally the marriage ceremony was, in essence, a transaction, the ring "buys" the bride. Therefore, according to tradition it must meet several qualifications. The ring must be made of solid metal (usually gold); it cannot have any gems in it; and it must belong to the groom. Two witnesses must attest to its value.

According to Jewish tradition, all people should appear equal at the most important transitions of their life. Therefore, all wedding rings are plain and unadorned, regardless of the wealth of the couple. (For the same reason, Jews are buried in plain white shrouds rather than fancy clothes.)

Ketubah: legal document introduced by the rabbis in early Talmudic times (over 2,000 years ago) to protect and further women's rights.I wonder what those rights were or are?? The document stipulates the terms of the marriage and protects the woman from injustice.hmmm my cynical thoughts are saying whose justice hers or his cul bono to ownership The ketubah is signed in the presence of two witnesses who are not related to the couple or to each other.

The Marriage Process

Wedding fast: Traditionally, Jewish brides and grooms fast on their wedding day in order symbolically to cleanse their souls. Thus, the bride and groom begin their lives afresh.

Signing of the ketubah: In the groom's room, the two witnesses sign their full Hebrew names to the ketubah. The groom indicates his acceptance of the document by taking hold of a handkerchief extended by the officiating clergy. During the wedding ceremony, the ketubah is presented to the bride.

Badecken (Veiling the bride): The groom places the veil over the bride's face as the following is recited: "Our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of myriads" (Genesis 24:60). This is the same blessing bestowed upon Rebecca when she set off to marry Isaac. At this point, the groom confirms that he is marrying the correct woman--this custom guarantees that he is not tricked into marrying a different woman, as was Jacob in the Bible.

The procession: The bride and groom are usually escorted to the chuppah by their parents. In some communities, grandparents, ushers, and other escorts precede the bride and groom.

Erusin: Jewish tradition has always associated wine with joy and festivity. At this point in the ceremony, a blessing is said over the wine, which is followed by the betrothal blessing. The bride and groom then share the first cup of wine.

Ring ceremony: In a traditional ceremony, the groom places a ring on the bride's finger and declares, "Behold you are consecrated to me with this ring as my wife according to the law of Moses and the people Israel." According to Orthodox tradition, the woman may give a ring at the Badecken ceremony but not under the Chuppah so as not to alter the original nature of the ceremony.

Reading of the Ketubah: Immediately prior to the kiddushin ceremony, the sanctification of the couple and the heart of the wedding ceremony, the ketubah is read aloud. It is then handed to the bride as her possession and her security.

Kiddushin: The kiddushin ceremony consists of the recitation of seven blessings, known as shevah berachot (seven is a lucky Jewish number). Among the themes of the shevah berachot are gratitude to God for making human beings in God's image, and a request from God to grant the same joy to the bride and groom as was given to Adam and Even in the garden of Eden (before the snake!). The final blessing serves as a summary of the preceding six, and ends with the words "Praised are you, O God, who allows the groom to rejoice with the bride." Together the bride and groom share a second cup of wine.

Breaking the Glass: At the end of every wedding ceremony there is a sudden mood reversal. A glass is shattered. Even at times of greatest joy, Jewish people never forget their difficult history. Many view the breaking of the glass at a wedding as a reminder of the destruction of the Temple. Others believe the glass is shattered to remind the bride and groom that marriage is as fragile as glass. These sober reflections last only a moment, for greetings of mazal tov (good luck), shouts of joy, clapping of hands, and jubilant music burst forth as the newlyweds turn to leave the chuppah.

Yichud: Yichud means "togetherness." Following the recessional, the bride and groom share a few sacred moments alone together. The ceremony actually began in ancient times when the groom brought the bride to his tent to consummate the marriage. Today, couples usually share their first meal as husband and wife.

well, Barbara, those are certainly straitforward enough. One does wonder, though, doesn't one, of just how effective that Ketubah really was, and as you mentioned what rights of the wife did it really protect?

I have attended several Jewish weddings and have always been impressed with the ceremony. I must admit I always wondered about the meaning of the canopy, and now I know. Every action is significant, and the breaking of the glass afterwards always seem to signal shouts of well-wishes and congratulations. A lovely ceremony!

Lorrie

Haven't found anything yet outlining what womans rights are being protected but, did find this-- I wonder if our author is among those woman actively persuing the Jewish womans movement. I never have heard of this Lilith story - Wow! I didn't realize Lilith is a Jewish name either.

The Myth of Matriarchy
...trying to restore to Jewish history, concrete data on the religious lives of ancient Jewish women because biblical (and later) editors were not interested in women's religiosity, they preserved only fragmented references to women's religious behaviors and beliefs, and they paid particular attention only to those who were unorthodox or evil. When Jewish women realize the extent of the loss that this represents, they conclude that there is some truth to the matriarchal myth: it was not that Jewish men and Yahweh destroyed matriarchy; rather, male authorities ignored or willfully suppressed Jewish women's religious traditions. Angered by their deprivation and sorely in need of female role models, modern Jewish women feel justified in producing their own stories of the matriarchs. They, unlike most of their non-Jewish peers, have a rich literary and folk tradition to mine.

A myth of an overthrown matriarchy appears in Jewish literature. Between the creation narrative in Genesis 1, in which God creates male and female simultaneously, and Genesis 2, which describes the creation of Adam and then Eve, oral traditions posited the creation of a woman prior to Eve. The first fully developed written tale appears in the Gaonic period.

An anonymous author identifies the first woman as Lilith, a name previously reserved for a demon. God forms Lilith and Adam out of the dust of the earth. On the basis of their identical origins, Lilith insists that she deserves full equality with Adam; specifically, she resists Adam's effort to place her beneath him during sexual intercourse. Angry at Adam's refusal to switch places, she utters God's name and is thus able to escape the Garden of Eden. God fails to draw her back and, after Adam complains that he has no helpmate, replaces her with the more submissive Eve. Lilith continues to exist eternally as a demon who kills newborn babies and sexually torments men--she seduces them in their dreams and causes nocturnal emissions, which produces further demons. Later versions of the Lilith legend describe her as the devil Samael's whoring wife, and it became customary in Jewish households to take protective measures against her evil incursions.

This legend would have remained obscure but for the efforts of Jewish Womans Movement to make visible women's presence in the religious tradition. The demonization of a woman whose initial "sin" was her desire for equality seemed tailor-made to awaken women to the injustice of their status in Judaism. From a womans perspective, it was quite obvious that the tale of Lilith functioned to justify and explain male dominance and to frighten and coerce women into socially acceptable behavior.

I've been thinking on your wonderful stories of your son's distinct differences from his sisters, MaryPage. Some of the best conversations/debates/fights/joking/classes I've had have been on just this fascinating subject. Not only theoretical nurture vs. nature, not just brain differences in language and spacial skills in ten year old girls and boys. Some of the best anecdotes I've ever heard are these compelling observations by parents. One favorite is the friend/mother who felt so strongly that her son would never, ever play with toy guns. That didn't stop the little boy from pointing every imaginable object and shouting "bang!"

One author I'm thinking of writes that, of course, we can't ever know what the true differences are, at least in today's world, because every last fiber of our existence is gendered. Her word. As I remember, she meant something fairly simple with that word. She meant that gender matters. And we can't know how people would have turned out because we don't live in a world that disregards gender. (Sex meaning biological male or female---gender meaning what it is like to live in this world as a woman or man. Examples---sex determines who gets to carry and give birth to a baby. Gender has determined rates of pay, number of female Senators elected, and who traditionally has been responsible for cleaning a home, etc.)

I truly believe it is difficult to overestimate the influence of gender---or culture in general, of which gender is a part. The women and men in Daimant's Red Tent saga are biologically like us. The differences in our lives are due to culture---history, environment, etc. Looking at gender exclusively, consider our grandparents or great-grandparents. The gender "differences," for example, between the grandmother and grandfather are more pronounced than the "differences" between men and women of our generation. Biology has stayed the same. It is the gendered culture that has altered somewhat.

What's fascinating to me, also, are imbedded perceptions and even unconscious habits. There is a film of sixth grade teachers interacting with students. The original purpose of filming was to demonstrate methods of recognizing girls and boys equally (calling on them, encouraging, etc.) An unexpected result---during the filming, even the teachers who received training on how to pay equal attention to girls RESPONDED MORE TO THE BOYS. Later, they watched themselves on tape favoring the boys. So, the end of this film is an interview of these stunned teachers.

Last week, I ordered a stack of coloring books to have at my house for my 2 and 4 year old nephews. The 4 year old is "into" Star Wars characters, so that's what I ordered. The two year old is absolutely obsessed with trucks. I ordered 2 coloring books of trucks. I looked long and hard at other books that were much less gender-distinctive and did not buy them. I often feel what I think of as a "pull," a need not to displease their parents or make a big deal over something little like coloring books---but these little things add up. Last Christmas, my sister-in-law watched as my brother picked up 2 baby-dolls that the little boys got from Santa Claus (along with all the trucks, dinosaurs, etc.) to hide them just before company arrived---a very strong message that must have been played out in other ways.

A few years ago during a short period of time that my sister worked outside the home and my brother-in-law stayed home with two very young daughters, visits to other family members were brutal, as they tell it today. People insisted on asking "home and children" questions of my sister and wondered if my brother-in-law had had any interesting job interviews. As they talk of it today, how other people saw them began to eat away at their satisfaction. That same "pull," I think, was difficult to ignore.

Well, I've written enough. If you're still reading, thanks for indulging me. A most interesting topic to me. I've written elsewhere of my favorite New Yorker cartoon----the little girl being handed a huge toy truck, then in the next frame she has the truck wrapped up in a blanket and is saying, "Don't worry, little truckie, I'll take good care of you."

Ok Betty now I understand the phrase "Gender spacific"-- never understood the word as defining behavior rather then just anatamy. After reading your post I even had to open my dictionary to get the exact definition.

This brings me back to some earlier posts that refered to Rebecca. I'm wondering if her behavior seems so startling because it is not "Gender spacific" If we could imagine a man in her position we may not like his action but it would not startle. I can't help compare her lack of compassion driving Tabea and Adath away to teach a lesson, as mild compared to Simon and Levi trussing and stuffing up Dinah's mouth and like a sacrificial goat, loading her on the back of a donkey, packing her off to Jacob's tent after having not only killed her love but all the men in the town. Or Jacob smashing the last remaining Teraphim that was so precious to his wife. Switching roles or gender could you just imagine Rachel smashing Laban's Gods?

Although, all of this behavior now is easier for me to understand having learned of this principel of authority overlaping and creating conflict with Love and Intellect or wisdom.

I have a difficult time understanding how Any men could complain of this author's treatment of the men in this novel.

She never, at any time, makes them worse than the Bible story itself does! On the contrary, she makes the prince and king wonderful, Dinah's second husband wonderful, her mother-in-law's brother, with whom she dwells in Egypt for years, quite wonderful. The mid-wife's 2 brothers, who took her in later, quite wonderful.

I think this author likes men and has been as kind to them As History Would Allow her to be! She Had to stick to the bare outlines of this story As Told In The Bible!

Makes me wonder if men really read that book!

I do not believe the Jewish wedding of today has any relationship to this book. It is a wonderful ceremony, and I have said for years that I prefer it to all others. We must remember, however, that circumcism was one of the only "Jewish" rituals practiced at this point in the history of Judism, and it was not Only Jewish then, any more than it is now. This book is set in the very beginning times of their history. Pre-Moses. No rabbis. No priests. No temples of worship. No Jewish Law. They were not even called Jews yet! When Jacob was renamed Israel, they became Israelites. Their history and rituals unfolded over the millennia from that point in time.

Betty, what a wonderful discussion of the meaning of gender. I don't think you can overestimate the influence of society. The story of the woman who would not buy toy guns for her children hit a really familiar note. I would not have toy guns in my house, because I couldn't bear to the see the children point them at each other. Alas, one of my sons has a real gun hobby and (choke) belongs to the NRA. So there, Ma! On the other hand he is a good cook, although the last time I ever hit him was when he was 14 and told me that stringing beans was "woman's work". My other son prepares almost all his family's meals and is the principle caregiver in his family. Two of the daughters are physicians, and their husbands think that the presense of testerone prevents a human from preparing food. My husband cooks, his father cooked, do you suppose that is genetic?

Barbara--thanks for the description of a Jewish wedding. It reminded me of several I have attended. I especially like the glass breaking part. At the last Jewish wedding I went to, I paid special attention at that point. The glass is wrapped in a cloth or napkin so there are no glass shards left on the floor.

At our very early time in history, really prehistory, the stories of the patriarchs which exist only in the Bible, I think there would have been no ceremony, just a bartering session followed by the paying of the bride price and the dowry and then off to the man's tent.

As MaryPage points out, we are back before the captivity in Egypt and before Moses. I found it especially interesting that Dinah's son is named Re-mose, an Egyptian name. "Mose" was part of a number of Egyptian names and cannot fail to remind us of the "Moses" who is still to come from among the Israelite captives in Egypt.

~~Maryal

Did anyone else notice the difference in the way Jacob treated his sons from the way he treated Dinah? In modern times, the one daughter among twelve brothers would be hopelessly spoiled, but as far as I could tell in the book, Jacob had very little to do with his only daughter. Only to take up a sword at the behest of his sons in Dinah"s "honor."

Lorrie

Lorrie----I noticed that when Esau and Jacob were introducing their families, only the sons were introduced. The women are left out completely except as they are mentioned as mothers of sons. Dinah is never introduced.

Jacob doesn't have anything to do with her in the Bible story either. He also doesn't have much to do with any of his sons except for Joseph, his favorite, to whom he gives the coat and Benjamin who is Rachel's other son and Joseph's only full brother.

Maryal

Oh for heaven's sake, you learn something new every day in the Books! I JUST read about the canopy last night in the book I'm reading, which is taking some strange turns, I must say, and am glad to know about it!

ginny

Ok as I had shared from the beginning - this time in history, the Old Testament, this story other than the bare outline is all new to me. I have been doing so much digging to piece it tøgether and I have learned this appears to be a time of change. The First change being when Abram leaves Ur and somplace along here including prabably Jacob's boys the tribes create a way of containing and organizing themselves introducing Partriarchy.

Now what I still do not understand is what is the specifice difference between being Jewish, Hebrew, Israelite?

What does it mean to be an Israelite as compared to being a Jew?

It appears from my research the Hebrew language, which is always a difining thing, was in existance during Jacob's time but most of the other information seems to come from archiological digs in Mesopotamia especially Sumer and some from Egypt. The Egyption sites thought say little about the influence or their experience with the Jews, or Hebrewites?? I do not know what Jaconb and ultimatly Joseph's people are called at this point in time.

Was the role of Moses to establish the Jewish religion? I only know of his role of receiving the 10 commandments and maybe that has more or different significance to the Jewish Faith than just a law of behavior tø abide.

Why is Abram such a king pin to the Bible? I'm picking up that his contribution was simply moving from Ur and with the tribes having the power or force it became important to know and remember the fathers. The is a chronicle showing that he sired Isaac who sired Jacob.

I'm finding much about the Jewish traditions, rituals and ceremonies from about the time of Christ but not much

Barbara---All during the Old Testament, after Jacob struggles with the angel and is renamed "Israel," the people are called Israelites. They are also called the House of Israel. Jacob's twelve sons become the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel. That is not quite correct because Joseph's two sons become tribe names. Levi has a tribe but does not possess land. The tribe of Levi receives Yahweh as its portion and furnishes the priests in ancient times.

These tribes occupied different sections once they inhabited Canaan, which God had promised to Abraham and shown to Moses.

The first king of Israel is Saul. Then comes David and his son, Solomon. After Solomon's reign, the Israelites split into two kingdoms, with ten tribes in the North and two in the South. The ten in the North are called Israel and the two in the south are called Judah.

Hebrew is the language of the Israelites.

I'll have to look up "Jew." I do not think the term occurs in the Old Testament.

Maryal

Moses is the greatest leader in the Old Testament. Elijah is the greatest prophet. These are the two figures who appear beside Jesus when he is transfigured. Elijah is the one who does not die; he is taken up into the sky in a chariot. The Jews believed that Elijah would return before the Messiah came; a place is still set at the table for Elijah at the Passover meal in case he comes.

I'm having a terrible time posting or getting from one spot to another on this computer and it lost part of my earlier message-- Ok I got that Jacob is the "first" Isrealite than what are they called before Jacob? Canaanites seem to be what what Esau is called since he lives in the land of Canaan. The Egyptians are also already labled. Jaconb and Laban and Esau already seem to have a common languge in Hebrew.

Maryal and Barbara: I must say, I'm really learning a lot about the various tribes in that particular time span, and Maryal, your simple explanation answers a lot of questions. I'm beginning to understand the deep roots of tradition in the Jewish faith. So many of their present day religious practices are centuries and centuries old!

However, from what I gathered from the book, Jacob and his sons didn't seem particularly religious. His wives did, they prayed a lot to various goddesses, but Diamant didn't stress too much on the faith of the men. Did anyone else feel this?

Lorrie

Barbara--Yes, Esau was a Canaanite as were a number of other groups of people. Once Moses leads the Israelites to the Promised Land of Canaan, and Joshua leads them into the land, they discover that it is already inhabited by many people. The Israelites don't just get the land; they have to conquer the people who live there.

Esau, by the way, should have inherited his father's property because he was the first born of the twins. Jacob was born grasping his brother Esau's heel. But Rebecca loved Jacob the most and showed him how to trick the now-blind Isaac into giving Jacob the blessing that belonged to Esau. After Jacob gets the birthright, Rebecca sends him to her brother Laban to find a wife (and also to hide from any repercusions from Isaac or Esau). She does not want Jacob to marry a Canaanite woman.

The people don't really have a name until they are the Israelites. Even then, they are more commonly refered to as Benjamites or Danites or Levites. Sort of like our Indians who are connected first and foremost to their tribes.

Maryal Here are some quotes re: Names

"The Hebrews who entered Egypt in the time of Jacob and Joseph became Israelites through their common heritage as they endured their prolonged slavery under the pharaohs. When they finally settled in the Promised Land, other groups with similar ethnic origins and status to the Israelites were already populating the more barren parts of the Levant. These stateless peoples had remained 'wanderers' and were therefore true Habiru/Hebrews, whereas their ancestral kin, the Israelites, regarded themselves as a distinctive entity - 'the chosen people'." - David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible from Myth to History (1995), p. 209

>http://home.fireplug.net/~rshand/streams/thera/joseph.html <

"The stories of Joseph's adventures in Egypt are best set in the period 2000-1800 BC. when archeological evidence has shown that Asiatic people were entering Egypt...Wall paintings...from the tome of an Egyptian named Amenemhet at Beni Hasan...show a group of Asiatics, probably Canaanites being introduced to the Egyptian court."

I found lots of other good reading and have been enjoying the amount of information that is appearing outside the actual discussion of the "story" line. FP

Faith--Thanks for that information. Ok, the people were called Hebrews and it referred to their wandering lifestyle? And then later they are Israelites. Sounds good to me.

I still have to check out when the term Jew is first used and if it appears in the Old Testament. Busy busy and I had to do errands today.

Maryal

Ok, finally checked the Encyclopedia Britannica. Here is part of the article on "Jew":

The Jewish people as a whole, initially called Hebrews ('Ivrim), were known as Israelites (Yisre'elim) from the time of their entrance into the Holy Land to the end of the Babylonian Exile (538 BC). Thereafter, the term Yehudhi (Latin: Judaeus; French: Juif; German: Jude; and English: Jew) was used to signify all adherents of Judaism, because the survivors of the Exile (former inhabitants of the Kingdom of Judah) were the only Israelites who had retained their distinctive identity. (The 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel had been dispersed after the Assyrian conquest of 721 BC and were gradually assimilated by other peoples). The term Jew is thus derived through the Latin Judaeus and the Greek Ioudaios from the Hebrew Yehudhi. The latter term is an adjective occurring only in the later parts of the Old Testament and signifying a descendant of Yehudhah (Judah), the fourth son of Jacob, whose tribe, together with that of his half brother Benjamin, constituted the Kingdom of Judah.

Now that we have that straight. . .

Wow great -- Thank you both Maryal and Faith - super! I know the story does not depend on knowing this stuff but this is such a wonderful opportunity to get some of this history and geography and religion better understood. Talked with the secratery to the Rabbi (Rabbi tied up in meetings all day) and did learn that the Old Testament is in the Torah. I want to find out next when so many of the rituals and celabrations that we read about during the time of Jesus actually became the Jewish way and if they are outlined in the Torah.

I know we are talking ancient times here and so much of the Old Testament was passed down verbially till it was finally written, I think about 500 B.C. and I bet many of the traditions and rituals were gradually added and changed however, this Religion seems to put great stock in carefully interpreting every word in the Torah so, I can't help but think, if not the Torah than someplace, all these traditions and rituals and ceremonies are written down.

All that because Jacob took Leah to his tent without ("aha" "fictitious" "Noval" the voice and imagination of an author did not include) a wedding ceremony in her story. Hehehe.

Faith I wonder, today is that why we here the expression Israelies because the Jewish people are from the country they are calling Israel? I've seen so many artifacts and exhibits of Egyption antiquaty and never put it together that that was the same time in history as Joseph. I'm still not clear when and how the Israelites or the Canaanites entered Egypt but that I think I can find a little easier on the internet.

By the way, have any of you experienced the frustration of not being able to get into seniornet today?

Anita Diamont can research many things but, she did not live to know intimately the dynamics of woman's experience during these ancient times. The author is only able to weave into this story her knowledge of today. Action set on the scenic backdrop of ancient lands and custom.

Almost one half the book, 144 pages, 16 pages less than half the book, tells the story of an isolated Dinah, experiencing the shocking pain of loss. Loss of tribe, family, mother, murder of husband, and finally the loss of her own child. It is a time for her of servitude, meeting and hearing of the abhorrent defilement of Werenro. However, Dinah does add to and shares her skill, her work, her knowledge of Herbs increases as well as, she experiences the the love of Meryt and Benia.

Finally, Dinah visits the clan during Jacob's death. Dinah observes and notes her kinship but she stays removed, isolated from the community. The discription of the camp does not include a RED TENT.

The wife of Levi, Inbu, was the catalyst to Jacob shattering the household Gods as well as, creating the division between themselves and the four sisters and ultimately, by having Levi complain to Jacob, the ending of the woman's monthly rejuvenation and the rituals that went with that monthly time of the new moon. This to me is the clarion call of woman's dis-empowerment. There is no RED TENT in Judah's camp. Woman's bodies are now controlled by the men, the husband, as some of the early RED TENT rituals are disbanded.

We have already noted the story is parellel to that time in history when the priests were removing the Goddess from the Bible and the priests wanted everyone to praise the one male God.

I do not see it as being Dinah's honor the men were avenging, but their own. The tribe's.

Their daughter, their sister, their property had been taken with the Honor of their permission. Dinah herself was of No importance as a person, but as a piece of stolen property.

In reality Barbara you can see that all this took more than one womans life time to happen. From one generation to another there would be small incrmental changes and perhaps some big natural cataclsym could cause a big jump in sociatal mores, and or cultural changes.

Gods and Godessess were worshipped together continuously down through the ages and in India still are. Don't know about China, I dont think they had ancient Gods or Godesses in the Western sense. It was Persia, Sumaria, Eygpt .Aftrica, the Whole Meditrerianian and then into Europe that I read about mostly. FP

Some of us are showing interest in something apparently new to them, i.e., that these early books of the Bible are about the real ancestors of the Jewish peoples. The stories have real outlines to them, though we know the details have been altered over the millennia.

Many do not know that ALL Semitic peoples, belonging to the Caucasian Race, but of one ancestral root that bloomed there in the Middle East, are descendants of SHEM, son of Noah. This includes all Arabs, Jews, and ALL of the other tribes and peoples of that area.

The Arabs and the Jews have an even more recent (well, than Shem!) common ancestor in Abraham. The two peoples come from two different mothers, Sarai and Hagar, but the one father. That is why all Moslems revere Abraham and he appears in the Koran, as well as the Bible, as patriarch.

It is an error of language to describe the Arabs as being "anti-semitic!" They ARE Semites! Anti-Jewish is correct.

was interested in the references to these in the book. I don't know the first thing about either of these subjects, other than I gave birth under vastly different circumstances. I presume the bricks the midwife took with her were to give clearance when the birthing woman squatted; they would have also demanded support for the laboring woman, physical as well as emotional, or she would have fallen off the bricks. Does anyone know more about these subjects? I am at a disadvantage in that I took the book back to the library some time ago, and I can't remember the details of the use of herbs. Were these used during births, or only in other kinds of healing?

Given, Red Tent is Dinah's story, but the catalysis seems to be circumcision. If this was in practice at the time of Jacob and his sons, I'm assumming many generations preceded Dinah's story. Could this affront to the male give rise to the male need to avenge and rule? Yvonne

Good thought Yvonne, but from what we have read through research the patriarchail system came about because the tribes wandering were needing some cohesion and the eldest of each tribe became the leader. Then we learned when order or authority comes into the equation overlapping production and re-production, a hiararchy of importance takes place. The book actually said slavery. Reading, it sounds more like, if 'authority' is not done well than slavery would be an easy outcome.

We know from our fictitious story based on this time in history and the Bible, that Laban had slaves and both Bilhah and Zilpah were the daughters of slaves making them slaves. When you look at the esteem that Rebecca commands as compared to the hut in the middle of the garden at Nakht-te's house or even how earlier when Jacob introduces his family to his brother at the river the woman did not all share in the equality of Rebecca and were less than the men.

We also have some pretty ancient tales that allowed the men to believe woman were "out to get them and control them" I had no idea this idea is as old as it is and this is the first time I've heard the Lilith story. The Goddess Innana also was thought to put this spell on men. Now when circumcission started in relationship to these two myths that I do not know. Hmmmm wonder if that could be traced.

Faith I think you are so right - woman became less not in one generation. Somehow though I see this author giving a message of woman's isolation from herself, isolation from affirming her womanhood through her rituals and reverance to her Goddess as symbolic of how we are today. The author can only really speak of the social problems as she knows them and that would be based on her life experience.

We have seen woman make great strides in becoming equal citizens and partners in the last 30 years or so but few of the traditional religions have been as prepared to equalize a woman's value or needs as the law has paved the way for woman in other social contexts. Also I think the author is addressing the concept that woman have been at odds with each other and the sisterhooed in the RED TENT could be an idea of how it could be.

Well that is the message I'm getting and since we each bring to a story our own knowledge and lifetime experiences we may each come away from this read with different slant. Recently, in one of our discussion it was agreed that reading is a creative act. That we bring to the author's story our experiences. And I beleve the concept was a quote from something a poster was reading.

SWN I think herbs were used at birth but I must re-look to get the spacifics. need to run just now!

The Biblical origin of circumcision is in Gen.17: 9-12--

"God further said to Abraham, 'You for your part must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you, generation after generation. This is my covenant which you must keep between myself and you, and your descendants after you: every one of your males must be circumcised. As soon as he is eight days old, every one of your males, generation after generation, must be circumcised, including slaves born within the household or bought from a foreigner not of your descent.'"

This establishment of circumcision as the sign of the covenant immediately precedes God's announcement to Abraham that Sarah is to bear a child at Ninety. The child is Isaac who is the father of Jacob and Esau.

And while I am right here in Genesis, remember the sacred grove at Mamre where Rebeccah practices and Dinah stays with her for a while?

Right after God has promised Abraham a son, "Yahweh appeared to him at the Oak of Mamre while he was sitting by the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. He looked up, and there he saw three men standing near him."

Abraham calls to Sarah to prepare a meal for the guests, making bread of the finest flour. One of the men tells Abraham, "I shall come back to you next year, and then your wife Sarah will have a son. Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well on in years, and Sarah had ceased to have her monthly periods. So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, 'Now that I am past the age of childbearing, and my husband is an old man, is pleasure to come my way again'?"

It makes sense that this grove at Mamre would become sacred to Sarah and later to Rebeccah. Diamant has done her research.

Maryal

Ms.Diamant gives us a great deal of detail revolving around Dinahs "emotional state" when she goes to the city, meets Shalem and falls in love. She " burns". Of course we know,( and I by my own adventures) that a little girl just past menses can "burn " like this. It is a powerful coming alive in a child. Who could have stopped Dinah and Shalem or Romeo and Juliet for that matter.? Literature abounds with stories with this plot. But here we see that the fact that Dinah is young has nothing to do with the rage of her father and brothers. Truly it is a matter of property. And bargaining gone wrong also. And stupidity of the brothers who thought they knew better than the father, who would have accepted some of the barganing byShalem for Dinah . As a matter of fact it is the true end of the story for me. There is no rape. This is a concentual marriage. The brothers use that as a pretex to rid the valley of the Queen who is from Eygpt. Now the valley is all theirs though ruined . I have read this part of story over and still cant understand all of the motivation. . FP

Faith P: I agree. I can't quite figure out what the true reason was for Dinah's brothers to do that grisly deed. It certainly wasn't for her "honor," or even theirs, as some one here suggested. What earthly threat did Shalem and his father have to Jacob's sons? Was it that they wanted posession of the valley, as Faith P. says? I still don't understand.

The story of Dinah and Shalem is a real tear-jerker. The way Diamant describes it, this was an affair both tempestuous and volatile, and one can only admire the future father-in-law who was willing to agree to such a sacrifice in order to gain the bride his son truly wanted.

Lorrie

It is actually in the Bible that the king, prince, and men of the city were circumcised. This is not a fictional element of this novel.

Why do men in Jordan, Afghanistan, Turkey, Yemen and other states kill their mothers, wives, sisters and daughters if there is even the slightest gossip about their purity Even Today? There have been several investigative and informational shows on tv about this problem, as well as a number of long newspaper articles and magazine specials. To a Man, the men say it is "For the Honor of The Family!"

I just checked this out.

I went to GOGGLE

which is my favorite Search machine, but your favorite should work as well

And I typed in "Honor Killings"

And I found enough sites about this subject to keep anyone busy reading for a month! Seriously.

Honor killings, aptly named, are probably related in nature to why men and countries go to war. Even today.

You are right, Betty.

The "I have a grievance" attitude. The "My grievance must be avenged" stance. The "I don't Care what the fall out, I Am Going To Get Even If It Is The Last Thing I Do" position.

The one character in this book that I remember so vividly, even though there was little written about her, was the slave wife of Laban, Ruti. Although she had borne him sons, Laban callously sold his "property" to traders one night of drunken gambling, and when they came to claim their prize, it was Leah who knelt before her husband Jacob and begged him to intercede. Of course, the ransom was gathered together by all the women, and they maaged to return Ruti to her sons, although the life she came back to was even more one of physical abuse by Laban. She finally committed suicide, and the callous way her sons came and collected her body was horrifying. The story of the hapless Ruti stays in my mind.

Incidentally, does anyone here see a similarity between this book and the one written by Marilyn French, "The Women's Room?" That one made quite a stir back in the 70's.

Lorrie

Hadn't read the Woman's Room but now you have peaked my interest. The story Ruti is so poignant and so many of the events surrounding her sorry existance are true of woman today and not in Iran or West Africa but here in our own communities. I think many woman do not want to understand the creeping victimization that happens to a battered wife till she is so beaten down and confused that she can hardly get away along with the fear of retaliation or believing what has been beaten into her that she can't make it on her own. Paralysis, is all to intense because, to learn of the dynamics is too close to 'but there for the will of God go I.'

Marilyn French's the Womans Room is one of the best feminist novels I have ever read. Of course, I was suffering thru a nasty divorce when she wrote this social commentary. Like the protagonist, I too was searching for self-knowledge and damned if I didn't find it. I bought it for my daughters 20 yrs. later so they could consider this "female journey" concept.

As you've mentioned already, it certainly didn't dound like a RAPE scene between Dinah and the man she loved. I wonder what other stories have been woven (weaved?) in this way? What about the untold ones?

You know I am beginning to get the impression that when something happens that does not measure up to the traditional or written law of 'how it supposed to happen' then the tradition or law is used to discribe the 'crime'-- in other words there was a bartering for Dowery etc. that preceeded a union of love and since this did not happen before the union then, regardless of feelings or common sense or even reality the deed or union did not happen in the time frame of what 'should' happen first and therefore, it is called rape by those creating authority. Back to that formula that there is clash when order, law, authority overlaps Love, which includes the union of a couple as well as re-production. Wisdom seems to go out the window or tent flap. The law is the law!

Hmmmm I wonder if that was the motive-- the sons jockeying for their place in the chain of authority and Dinah was the weeker one that could be used to hike them up the ladder. Another thought maybe sour grapes since Hamor and Shalem in the city were more wealthy and respected and the brothers thought they ought to teach them that the law was more important than their wealth and prestige.

One thought on whether this was rape. Dinah was 13 years old, or maybe younger. Today, maybe looking at the boy's age, we might call it rape. I also had the uneasy feeling that Daimant was applying some awfully grown-up feelings to Dinah during this first sexual encounter. It just felt like the author was overselling this one part.

Perhaps Diamant is overselling the sex scenes a little, but I admire her for trying to make sense of the Bible's account that Shechem LOVED Dinah and wanted to marry her.

I think the "family honor" was metaphorically manifest in the women of the tribe. If anyone took a daughter of Jacob without his consent, the "family honor" had been threatened. Worse still, the man who lies with her is not circumcised--an outsider. Double disgrace on the family honor.

And I keep in mind also that these brothers who avenge "their sister's honor" are the very same brothers who come up with the idea of selling Joseph into slavery because they are jealous of him. They would have killed him too, if Reuben had not spoken up and said no.

Maryal

aha - back to that Honor thing - so that is the point!

Barbara---I think so. Just think about all the emphasis about having a good name and being a person of his/her word throughout the ages.

Honor, an abstract concept, can be defined in many ways.

I think it is also a matter of "king of the mountain" which little boys play to this day. i remember my brothers being bright red in the face, angry, and intent upon being the king of the mountain and my little sisters and I could care less, we were just having fun pulling each other off and tthe physical activity and the giggling and laughing were the point to us, but my brothers and their friends would keep at it until the big boy won, whoever it might be and I have seen eight year olds in fist fights over this game.

Betty I dont think Diamant over worked the love scene between Dinah and Shalem. I knew plenty of 13 and 14 year olds including myself that could "burn" as described in the story. Most of the girls did not act upon the emotions we discussed feeling, but I met an older fellow and so I found myself married at 14. In 1941 it was a terrible blow to my family but I thought it was great and stayed married for 24 years. fp

In re-reading parts of the Old Testament, I find several mentions of incest within the family of some of these Biblical characters, but apparently tha was a no-no in Dinah's family. the only mention made was early on when the authors showed how much the daughters despised their father. He had pinched Zilpah's nipple, and one time even put his hands under Leah's robes. When Adah was told, she "beat her husband with a pestle until he bled," and then threatened to curse him with boils and impotence unless he swore never to touch his daugters again.

apparently they had "dirty old men" even back in those days.

Lorrrie

My how confusing--Daimant has taken a small item from the Bible (the foundation for religious dogma) and used it for a contemporary novel that is just a story--and we're trying to discuss the two as if they are the same! I don't think it can be done. Yvonne

Lorrie, today that is called incest. When a family member sexually abuses-- some are more comfortable just labeling it molestation. The issues, the after-effects are the feeling of being Betrayed by someone you had expected was there to care for you and the ensueing lack of trust. Other issues are feeling shame, not ashamed but shame meaning you are not valuable or you are wrong as a person, your relationships with authority figures is often untrusting or you continue to seek out someone that is the replacement figure for the one who 'molested' and that person is going to make it alright, be the protective, kind, loving figure you hoped for.

Some become premiscous or addicted to sex while others feel uncomfortable with sex. Sometimes saying no becomes difficult regardless the request and sometimes the only way to cope is to so block it out, living with behavior that makes little sense to take care of yourself and than some cataclysmic event later in life brings back all the memories.

The statistics are disturbing, commonly cited is between 25% and 38% of all AMERICAN woman have been sexually molested in childhood. This crippling experience violats the body, boundries and trust. Abuse by a stranger does not violate the ongoing bond of trust.

What distinguishes the abuse is a power imbalance, a devalued daughter, an abuse that does not require force, the child's natural dependence and powerlessness are used against her.

The sexual aspect of incest is secondary to a shattered childhood where she is disgraced and humiliated, tought guardedness and the manipulation of reality. She learns how to survive in a war zone, how powerlessness feels, and women are helpless, unable to develope independence she becomes an extension of her abuser. In response to these feelings the survivor is afraid to lose control, if her self-made security is breached she will often hurt herself, her rage coming out in the form of critisizing, attacking others, becoming remote, or hard or arrogant often experiences insomia. She stops herself from needing.

In our story it is so easy to see that this childhood abuse colored Zilpah's life. Leah it is a little more subtle seeing some of the affects.

Starting with Zilpah from her death backwards. When the last of the Teraphim are smashed by Jacob she goes crazy killing herself. She tears her hair, her hair, her lifeforce, strength, energy. She eats dirt, dirt the Great Mother, nurisher, sustenance and SPITS on the memeory of her mother, spit is contempt. Why contempt for a mother that was a slave and died at your birth? Yes, Adah beats up on Laban when she finds out and forces him to acknowledge all his daughter's with gifts. But Adah is not Zilpah's mother and although the act validated, her mother wasn't there protecting her.

Regardless that, as a slave, her mother could not protect her, daughters charge their mother's with more responsiblility for maintinaing the family welfare and have higher expectations. (This issue is a problem today since more often than not where a daughter is abused usually a wife has been abused and dis-empowered by the abuser) Giving gifts is not something the mothers could do and there is further confussion since the recieving of a gift is pleasurable and daughters would like now that pleasure to come from the mother and so, they become further angry with the mother. Also, it is safe to be angry at a mother.

Laban also gave the powerful Goddess Asherah. When the family is planning the move Zilpah cannot leave the holy tree. Rachel, who is not abused and Zilpah feels jealousy towards, (I wonder why?) steals Laban's remaining Gods. Stealing is often an after-effect of surviviors and a means of controlling. It is high risk and nothing is expected in return as is receiving a gift. Zilpah can experiance vicariously these feeling through Rachel asserting her rights. The Gods and Goddesses are Zilpah's protection and safty, becoming her life's devotion.

Zilpah's need to control is especially noted when she uses the triangle as a wedge wanting Rachel to suffer. Zilpah understood that their lives would not be the same after noting Jaconb to be fair of face and his presence changing things between her sisters which wouold weaken her bond to Leah. A bond in more ways than one. She was helpless to stop the change, though she tried. She scares Rachel by feeding her fears. Zilpah had further been truamatized, althought the story does not use those words it is what happens to a young girl observing Jacob materbating. She plots and manipulates, controlling the marriage of Jacob to Leah. As a child Bilhah noticed her insomnia. Later as a woman Zilpah shows little interest in sleeping with Jacob is resigned to it, goes to his bed, taking little pleasure in her duty, refusing the Henna. All typical after-effect behavior of a woman incested as a child.

Rachel who does the stealing and hiding stands up to Laban. Laban was afraid of Rachel at her birth and he backed down as he had trembled at her birth when Rachel threatened Laban with the magic of the Gods turned against him saying, he was without their protection. Rachel dies on the road giving birth to her "Son of woe," in a river of black blood. River: the passage of life, change, return to the source, chaos, void. Black: death, shame, despair, destruction. Blood: the life principle, soul, strenght, rejuvenating force. Jacob, fleeing the wrath of the valley, fear chasing him from Rachel's drained body buried her without ceremony, defied her wishes and names the boy Benjamin.

Bilhah, kind, gently quiet, Bilhah who remembers and never got over the hurt of her mother abandoning her. Bilhah abandons her family just as her mother did when Bilhah was a child. Jacob cradled her in his arms like a child for the first time since her mother died. Jacob struck Bilhah across the face breaking her teeth, the most enduring symbolizing diefience and enmity.

Leah dies by losing control of her hands and arms first. The arm wisdom and action-- the hand the Great Mother bounteous giver and protector, pushes away evil and trouble. Leah the lewdest of sisters, always reliable, deliberate and far too steady to be giddy, is haughty, maternal, is impatient with her daughter's efforts at weaving and establishes herself as the strong one. Leah with Jacob manipulates the truth after their seven nights to get even with Laban. To me I see that Jacob was Leah's hero providing all the love and comfort she wanted from Laban.

None of the sisters are buried as Adah during the days of the RED TENT. Dinah's death more closly resembles the burial of Adah.

Diamant uses a backdrop of history and the Bible to tell her story but the story is not a faithful recount of history. Diamant can only share her knowldge of the dynamics between people as she knows them today and bring todays issues to her story in that she is an author of the 20th and 21st century using her research of 4000 years ago as a backdrop.

If you think of the Bible as the actual word of god the discussion would become embedded in dogma that is true. Only thinking in terms of Literature and how it came to be written can the discussion continue.

I was interested in the way Jacobs El is becoming the One god

,When Jacob wished to leave Labans land and go down to Egypt he had to bargain with Laban. After a long and fruitless barganing Jacob found the way to thwart the old man. He told him that he dreamed that his God, El had chosen him to go down to Eygpt and that anyone who stopped him would be wounded in their fields, herds, and person .He warned Laban that his God told him to go, and the God would not take kindly to anyone who stopped the anointed of God, and the old man feared any god. He “locked himself in his tent with his own gods” and when he thought of all Jacobs blessing; of 11 sons, his increasing herds, how successful and rich Jacolb had made them. Laban though Jacobs EL did choose him so he was afraid of Jacobs God.

Now I can see the way it could become generally accepted in time with enough “stories” like this that El was the one and only God. Of course the concept of one god started in Egypt and some anthropologist think it could be an oriental influance brought to the Pharohs. FP.

Yes faith it is easy to see how sharing fear and the power of what would happen if you don't live as I do with all my success would bring about a new order.

What confuses me is that Jacob talked about as the butcher of Shechem, synonymous with the word Lier can influence just by changing his name to Isra'el. Talk about family secrets!

FaithP---I'm glad you brought up the evolution of El. I have been noticing the same thing. In Genesis there are several names for God. Yahweh becomes the sacred name, written in Hebrew as YHWH and never pronounced outloud. It has not been said outloud for so long among Jews that we no longer know how it was pronounced.

The other frequently mentioned name of God is Elohim (clearly derived from El, the father of the Mesopotamian gods). There are a number of others, such as El Shaddai.

Many names of people in the Old Testament contain the syllable "el" to mean something with the rest of the name. I can think offhand of "Israel," "Samuel," "Daniel,"

El is used even today. There's a synagogue in my block--name is Beth-El. Literally, house of God.

I wish I knew some Hebrew.

Maryal

There IS yet another example of incest in this story in the Bible, and our author Did pick up on it.

Reuben slept with his father's wife, Bilhah.

His father never forgave him. Also in both books.

Mary Page: Yes, but Bilhah wasn't Reuben's mother, which means there was no blood relationship, right?

In the book, Dinah travels from Haran (contemporary Iraq/Syria), through Canaan and into Shechem (Israel), and into Egypt. She sees many new sights, such as men and women eating together, and even raising their voices in song together, and encounters many things different from those that she had grown up with. What struck you most about the cultural differences Dinah finds as she enters these new territories?

Lorrie

Another thought regarding the brothers' reaction to Dinah's first husband's family. This thought comes after reading a description sent to me about an amazing Polish woman. In the early 1800's, she fought legally to keep an inheritance from her mother---women could not own property, remember---and to refuse an arranged marriage.

It reminded me that women (girls) in Dinah's world were secondary players in the marriage negotiations, if counted at all. The men in each family held the power. Dinah's mother-in-law was primarily responsible for the lengthy welcome (setting for the consumation of marriage, you might say) and Dinah herself fully consented to the lengthy stay. BUT, both the mother-in-law's and Dinah's actions flew in the face of established power. In other words, Dinah was not free to make such choices.

Fast forward to the present to hear parents say, "What? You're already living with him and he's not even Jewish?" Back to Jacob's world---I can just imagine how insignificant the news that Dinah actually WANTED to be where she was, that she was "in love," etc. What did that have to do with anything, the brothers must have thought.

Bilhah was Reuben's blood relation.

She was his Aunt!

She was Laban's daughter.

Leah, Reuben's mother, was Laban's daughter.

Leah and Bilhah were half-sisters.

Bilhah was Reuben's Blood Aunt

AND she was his step mother

AND she was mother of his Half Brother!

So he slept with his brother's mother, his mother's sister, his father's wife, and his grandfather's daughter!

To FaithP--you mentioned a possible influence of oriental pphilosophy on the pharohs--any more clues? Yvonne

Lorrie, MaryPage, Barbara,

Even without blood ties (I'm speaking of today primarily), there are still all the issues of damaged trust, lost childhood, warped perceptions, etc., as Barbara listed. I'm thinking of legal stepfathers and even people closely linked to the family (a la Woody Allen).

Oh, Mary Page, my poor head is swimming! Alas, you're so right, there definitely was a blood relationship there, three-fold, really! I stand humbly corrected. But, as Betty says, blood relationship matters little in cases of family sexual abuse. Her example of Woody Allen is a very good one. Even today how many times we hear of cases where mothers had to flee their new husbands because they discovered the new spouse was sexually abusing her children, both male and female.

Lorrie

I know we have so much more information about what happens to a child when her trust is damaged and perceptions are warped, as Betty so aptly says - just because something happened 4000 years ago and we only now, 4000 years later, have the understanding of what the human reaction of experiences are, in my mind does not absolve people from experiencing the losses all those years ago.

The understanding about children incested may have been broached by Freud but, has only really been studied with real information available since the early 1980s. The work continues-- incest survivor groups also have only been out there since the early 1980s-- This may have been an issue discussed by girls and woman all these generations ago but, without the hope of power to change the dynamics in society, girls and woman could only react, taking care of themselves the best they could within their own war zone. E. Sue Blume has developed a checklist of after-effects-- a 34 item check list of characteristics that are a great help to understanding behavior observed or read about.

Those that have explained all this behavior in the Bible to me have always indicated there was a dirth of men and woman around and therefore, in order for the growth of mankind this was the only way. Hmmmm I'm really questioning that now, especially now that I have read a bit more of how a woman's sexuality affects the "honor" of a whole family! Woman's sexuality has sure been a political football for thousands of years.

Thank goodness for the RED TENT-- it seems to be the rest and relaxation that these woman required with all the happenings in their lives. There are many births described but one of the more beautiful moments was Bilhah teaching Dinah to use the spindle sharing the lovely myth of Enhenduanna, Uttu and the great God Nanna.

I found this great book Surpassing Wonder - The Invention of The Bible and The Talmuds by Donald Harman Akenson a prof. of history and the Beamnsh research prof. in Liverpool. This is a 657 page historical look at these documents. the book was published in 1998. Not exactly beach reaading but I am anxious to get started. And yes, I leave for the beach in the morning-- all my grandboys and their parants, (daughter in from SC) are meeting for a few days at Aransas on the coast. Back either Wed. night or thursday.

Barbara, I would be really interested in a review of that book and an outline of what you glean from it.

Lorrie, I forgot to add that because Laban was Jacob's mother's full brother, and therefore Jacob's uncle, Bilbah was Jacob's first cousin and therefore Reuben's first cousin once removed.

As well as all of the above, blah, blah, blah .....

WHOA!!! I am a little lost here. Bilhah is Laban's daughter? She is? Where is that relationship mentioned?

For Reuben to lie with Jacob's concubine (considered in The Red Tent as one of the two lesser wives) would be incest. We agree on that much. But I don't see why everyone is referring to her as Laban's daughter?

Maryal

page 15..."Bilhah was the family orphan. The last daughter born of Laban's seed, she was the child of a slave named Tefnut."

Thank you, Pat W!

May I offer the following?

Tali became fast friends with Bilhah's Dan, and the two of them liked to sleep side by side in Bilhah's tent, hanging on the words of their big brother Reuben, who was also drawn to the peace and stillness that enveloped my aunt [Bilhah]

During the exodus:

I noticed that Reuben's devotion to Bilhah had not faded over time. Most of my brothers, as they grew into their height and sprouted beards, loosened their childhood ties to mothers and aunties. All except Reuben, who liked to linger near the women, especially Bilhah. During the trip, he seemed to know where she was at every moment. When he called for her, she replied, "Yes, brother," even though he was her nephew. She never spoke of him to anyone and I don't think I ever heard her give voice to his name, but I could see their abiding affection, and it made me glad.

Of Jacob’s older sons, only Reuben remained unmarried. My eldest brother seemed content to serve his mother and to do kindness to Bilhah, whose only son was still too young to hunt.

Dinah speaks of her flight to the gates of Shechem, and muses about how different things would have turned out if Reuben had found her there first:

If Reuben had found me, I would have watched my curse wrap itself around his neck, unleashing a lifetime of unspent passion and unspoken declarations of love for Bilhah and of hers for him. When that dam broke, they went breathlessly into each other's arms, embracing in the fields, under the stars, and even inside Bilhah's own tent. They were the truest lovers, the very image of the Queen of the Sea and her Lord-Brother, made for each other yet doomed for it.
When Jacob came upon them, he disinherited the most deserving of his sons and sent him to a distant pasture, where he could not protect Joseph. Jacob struck Bilhah across the face, breaking her teeth. After that, she began to disappear. The sweet one, the little mother, became smaller and thinner, more silent, more watchful. She did not cook anymore but only spun, and her string was finer than any woman had ever spun, as fine as a spider's web.
Then one day she was gone. Her clothes lay upon her blanket and her few rings were found where her hands might have lain. Mo footprints led into the distance. She vanished, and Jacob never spoke her name again.

Finally - Is there a different value judgement in these two sentences? Which one is the “abuser”?:
1) Reuben slept with his father's wife, Bilhah.
2) Bilhah slept with her nephew, Reuben.

There can be incest without abuse. If one is a child, though, the other is an abuser. Or if one has responsibility for or over the other, it probably is abuse.

Incest by itself is not abuse. Two consenting adult syblings for instance. And that has been happening down through history. the Kings and Queens of many areas were brother and sister. In our society we still consider it statutory rape if a mate is over the legal age for maturity, 21 in most places, and the other is under the legal age. Sexual Abuse by a family member is considered a crime when the perpatrator is older than the victtim and the newer approach is that it is a crime even when the Abuser is not of legal age, but it is an individual case by case thing now days whether it is a crime or not.

As a person who has been treated for many years for residual psychopatholigies from my childhood sexual abuse. I have learned a lot about it. At age 73 I still have times when I jump straight up into the air and then almost faint when come down., this in reaction to a door opening. Thats all ! I can be in a room reading and hear a door open and the reaction happens. I have been known to fall to the floor and curl up in a ball when A door slams loud.

My mother thought I was "her jumpy child" My husband thought I was "really a nervous person" and my first phsychiatrist called me a Hysteric that was when I was 33. I had all these numb spells. A leg. Would go away then appear in a different limb. The side of my face. It would go away and a new symptom altogether would appear. Some time I will be able to face the whole story all at once. Now I can not do more than bits and pieces. When I read about other children who these things happen to I get sick. Really. I catch a cold or get a "Stomach Flue."

My reactions according to some experts I have been lucky enouth to meet and have counceling from, are par for the course and not as sever as some. The giving up the word victim and even survivor , words only but powerful , helped a big bunch. Now I just say Sexual abuse by an adult, yeah, that happened to me when I was a child. If I live to 93 maybe I will write the whole story for myself. Faith

Faith---I urge you to live and to write the book. We need a book that goes all the way from the abuse to dropping the terms "victim" and "survivor."

Maryal

Great post, Charlie---all sorts of parts put together. Thanks.

The rampant disgust and exhaustion around the words "abuse" and "victim" were alluded to by a Black NY Times journalist who appeared on a recent Charlie Rose panel. The panel included other NY Times journalists and editors who participated in a year-long effort to get into the "silence" between people about racism.

This Black journalist said, and I'm paraphrasing, "People are sick of it. They think, well, we've already done this. We had the meetings at work on racism. We passed the laws. We had everybody yelling victim. We had the quotas at work. Even really good people think racism is over. They don't want to hear it any more."

I was all but yelling "yes, yes" at the television as he talked.

Another NY Times editor, I think it was, a white man, said, "Racism is even more dangerous now because it's not as obvious and because people are tired of thinking about it."

Faith and Barbara, I love your up-front-ness. I love it that you both speak right up, even when some of the rest of us hesitate. I rarely talk of my father's abuse of us. I talk in booky sounding, know-it-all terms. I talk a lot of how I miss Oregon, but not of one of the reasons---that it's just about the right distance away from my parents' home. My largest loss is the relationship I didn't/don't get to have with my mother. Her world is constructed of (dangerous) compromises---and I honor her choices---but that leaves a distance between us that forever and ever leaves me sad.

Betty----I had a mother-in-law like that. You have given me just the right words to describe her life full of "dangerous compromises." Thanks.

Betty the chasms that are created between family members by one person growing up and out and away from the abusive situations are often never crossed. Others may be as lucky as I was. I won't go into it here but I did cross the chasm between myself and my daughters and granddaughters by being forthright. But it has been a number of years since we went through our "reunion".

Sometimes it can not happen the reunion, because like my mother for instance. I say I was protecting her. I thought I was but of course as an adult I now know she knew all the time but it was easier to not talk about it. I did not forgive her for her passive stance but I did not confront her either.

So that chasm was not crossed and who knows this way may be the best given her date of birth and social/cultural mind set. You do not have to forgive to just go on loving someone. What you do do is not get into an abusive situation again. Many of the woman I met in my group therapy sought out those situations unconsciously. Or created them,themselves, the abusive situation if it was not in a new relationship. Fp

Remember in the book how Dinah had to leave her mother and "aunties" and then missed them so much. Those were sad parts of the book for me, when she remembered her mothers and wondered about them.

I am confused---in the Bible, the mention of an all-powerful deity, (God,) or "El". as He is referred to in the book, is mentioned everywhere. The way I always understood it, Jacob and his sons never worshipped any god but "El," and as was the custom then, all the women did the same. But there is a great deal of pagan practices in the book, like sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven, etc. The author has apparently written several books on Judaism, but there is very little mention of God, as we were told of in the Old Testament, and even when Dinah settled in pagan Egypt, there was no emphasis on her beliefs.

Lorrie

Lorrie, it has been my experience that the lessons given in Sunday School and the books of Bible Stories written up for children are quite, quite different from the actual Bible itself.

For one thing, obviously, the x-rated parts have been expunged. One would not teach children those things anyway.

However, it is also true that the tales and stories had these peoples worshipping One God Only long before they actually were. In reading the Bible, you will find some of these same 12 tribes, generations later, worshipping some of the old gods.

I suppose that is why Moses was so angry when he came down from the mountain and found his people worshipping the golden calf. Apparently they were quick to return to the beliefs of their forebears, or am I reading too much Cecil B. DeMille here? Anyway, we had been taught that, from Abraham on down, a belief in one true god had been the essence of all their lives.

Actually, for an author who has written so many books on the subject of Judaism, there is surprisingly little religious mention in the book---it seems to me more a tale of how Biblical women endured and even enhanced their lives by bonding together and forming deep attachments.

Lorrie

Lorrie---El was the father of all the gods in Mesopotamia. His son was Baal about whom we read much in the Old Testament as the people frequently turn to worship of Baal instead of Yahweh, their God. Monotheism developed slowly, as MaryPage says, and the Golden Calf episode which you mention is a fine example.

Even a long time later, the people continually turn to foreign gods of one kind or another. Example--one of the problems Solomon has is marrying many wives. A number of his wives were pagans and Solomon has temples and worship places built for these foreign gods to please his wives. Yes, this is in the Bible.

Still it is true that monotheism was the great gift of the Jewish people to civilization. Monotheism existed other places, most notably in Egypt under the reign of Akhenaton, but it did not last. After Akhenaton died, the Egyptians restored the former gods.

Maryal

Akanhaton is the name I was trying to remember. In my youth I read so much egyptology and now it is all a blur but still connections occur. The story I read was written by Gore Videl and I have to go research the title now. I remember it as a wonderful book about the God/Kings and Priests of Egypt. Including the monetary system etc. Faith

Isn't Allah the one godof the Muslim faith which predates the Hebrew faith--I'm still trying to 'timeline' here--is there any information on this data outside of faith based legend? Yvonne

Yvonne--Allah comes later. Muhammad, born somewhere around 570 AD, was the founder of Islam. He called God Allah. The following are taken from the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Allah (Arabic: "God"), the one and only God in the religion of Islam. Etymologically, the name Allah is probably a contraction of the Arabic al-Ilah, "the God." The name's origin can be traced back to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh. Allah is the standard Arabic word for "God" and is used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims.

Allah, the Arabic word for God, is used by Christian Arabs as well as by Muslims.

Hope this helps.

Maryal

Yvonne, you might find this following information interesting, as i did. I had wondered just how the Islamic people's lives differed from the descendants of Jacob, and here is one thing I found---it's on the subject of women, and their way of life.

Marriage And Family In Pre-Islamic Arabia

Though the evidence is thin, there are a number of indications that women in pre-Islamic Arabian bedouin culture enjoyed greater freedom and higher status than those who lived in neighboring civilized centers, such as the Byzantine and Sasanian empires that then dominated the Middle East.
Women played key economic roles in clan life, from milking camels and weaving cloth to raising children.
Because male members of the clan were often on the move, many tribes traced descent through the mother rather than the father.
In some tribes, both males and females were allowed multiple marriage partners, and the male was required to pay a bride-price, rather than the father of the female paying a dowry, in order to seal a marriage contract.
In contrast to women (especially elite women) in neighboring Syria and Persia, women in pre- Islamic Arabia were not secluded and went about without veils.
Their advice was highly regarded in clan and tribal councils, and they often authored the poems that were the focus of bedouin cultural life in the pre-Islamic era.
] However, women were not by any means the equals of men. They could not gain glory as warriors, the most prized occupation of the bedouins; and often they were little more than drudge laborers.
Their treatment and status depended on the custom of individual clans and tribes rather than on legal codes, and thus varied widely from one clan or family to the next.
Customary practices regarding property control, inheritance, and divorce heavily favored males.
Though remarkably skilled women, such as Muhammad's first wife Khadija, prospered in the urban environment of trading centers like Mecca, the rise of a mercantile elite and social stratification in these areas appears to have set back the position of women on the whole.
The more stable family life of the towns led to the practice of tracing descent through the male line, and while males continued to practice polygamy, females were expected to be monogamous

So what else is new?

Lorrie

I'm still interested in the differences between Islamic and the Judaic religion, in view of the fact that they both have a fundamental like basis----Abraham.

And in a later period, I saw this interesting fact from the Koran, supposedly:

What do Muslims think of Jesus?

"Muslims think highly of Jesus and his worthy mother, Mary. The Quran tells us that Jesus was born of a miraculous birth without a father. "Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then He said unto him: Be and he is" (Quran 3.59). He was given many miracles as a prophet. These include speaking soon after his birth in defense of his mother's piety. God's other gifts to him included healing the blind and the sick, reviving the dead, making a bird out of clay and most importantly, the message he was carrying. These miracles were given to him by God to establish him as a prophet. According to the Quran, he was not crucified but was raised into Heaven." (Quran)

Lorrie

Lorrie---Very interesting material from the Quran. I have long wondered where that clay bird came from. In the most recent TV production, Jesus, there is a scene where Jesus sees a dead bird when he is a little boy. He holds it in his hands and it comes back to life. Since this incident is nowhere in the Biblical account, I wondered where it came from. You seem to have found the source.

Back to the novel--Did anyone else notice how much more freedom women have in Egypt than they did back home?

Maryal

Yes, Maryal, and to be perfectly honest, that was the part of this book that I liked the most. Dinah's life seemed so much better when she married Benia, and when they were living in the Valley of the Kings. She had a caring husband, her midwifery skills were in demand, and even though they had no children they seemed content. I would like to have read more about that life in Egypt, what their surroundings were like, what they wore, what they ate, etc. Diamant does mention somewhere about discarding those heavy robes and getting into a simpler form of dress. And another thing: During their long stay in Egypt, did Dinah and her husband worship pagan gods, or did they cling to the old "one god" belief of her father, Jacob?

Lorrie

I Thought the book was defininetly a two part book with the second part in Eygpt interesting but sort of seperate from the book up to the move away from the Valley. It was of course all Dinahs life. Faith

Faith---Me too. I saw the book as breaking into two distinct parts. It is better to not divide or to divide into three or more parts. The reason is that to divide into two is to invite your readers to like one half better than the other.

Maryal

In some of the reviews I've read, it was said by more than one reader that they thought this book was "too politically correct." Is that your opinion?

Lorrie

I would suppose those critics mean the book puts the floodlights on the women of this Biblical story and portrays their lower status and lack of freedom.

If this is termed politically correct, and that is said derisively, then I would retort that such critics are easily affronted by the Truth!

I was very surprised by the people who wrote that the book was too politically correct.
I can only say that this opinion may have come from fairly conservative types who aren't yet comfortable with the topics Diamant covered in this book, like menstruation, childbirth, stillbirths, and all the things related to women and how they endured back in those Biblical times.

Lorrie

I think "politically correct" is easily slung around. If I were in conversation with someone who said that, I would ask what he/she meant. It is used so loosely that I really don't know what it means more than half the time.

Maryal

Maryal, it seems to mean being frank about things that were once either not mentioned or whispered.

And, at the same time, frowning on utterances which were once commonplace put downs of those found to be inferior beings due to their race, religion, education, trade, or degree of culture.

I get confused as well!

In one vein, being "politically correct" means following some kind of code list of what is sensitive to needs of disenfranchised or formerly disenfranchised groups of people. To me, it implies lack of genuine expression, being fake. I would reply that the author felt deeply about her subject and the work rings with authenticity.

The whole issue of political correctness, however, goes much deeper than any code list of sensitivity. I hear such remarks as this book being "too politically correct" and a recent quote here (of something written in Amazon.com, I believe) of the author demonizing men----I hear comments such as these two in the same general vein as Ginny's telling us that some male Books and Lit participants felt that some male-bashing was going on in our book groups. ("Male-bashing" is maybe an overstatement of what Ginny wrote, but I think it's close.)

All three issues, I believe, are related to someone feeling targeted (offended, hurt, accused, bad-mouthed) when reading about real-life issues of, for example, women. (Could be Blacks, etc.) Ironically, those who complain the loudest seem to be the least informed/aware. Some men (if we're talking about women) that we hear little from probably have a right to feel offended if they get lumped with "all men" this and "all men" that. The other uninformed but openly offended people surely find comfort in the popular fad of labeling so many things "political correctness." When my ears hear "politically correct," I hear something being discredited, minimized.

Betty! Well said! Hear! Hear!

Betty!----Now there it is, nicely spelled out. I too am deeply suspicious of Politically Correct as a concept. And I agree that this book is deeply felt and imagined.

Maryal

Politically correct or not, I'm very grateful to Anita Diamant for writing this story. If nothing else, it has made me aware of just how one-sided the role of women has been portrayed in the Bible. Written by and for men, one can't help but feel that the feminine side of the biblical characters has been sadly neglected. This should be required reading for every young girl entering womanhood, and even those beyond.

Lorrie

Betty, I like your comments on "politically correct." That particular phrase always makes me shudder.

"Who" decides what is politically correct?

Some attitudes politically correct in CA or NY wouldn't stand a chance around here.

Pat W---right, and that's one of the problems with the term. It makes my knees roll when I hear it.

Maryal, I would like to see knees roll hehehe My mom used to tell us, when we little girls were all dressed up, You girls are the BEE'S KNEE'S, she would croon.. I never knew what it meant but I felt she loved us to be pretty and dressed up.

Politically correct was a concept developed at University for the purpose of trying to change language(genderwise) in order to effect social change. Of course it backfired and now no one wants to be politically correct as it carries a negative connotation. My memory was that it never got far and as a concept was always derided.

For instance the feminists searched for years to find a way to get rid of the He pronoun as a default pronoun in general writing. And did you ever try to write a politically correct essay with all those s/he and he/r's in there. It is horrible. I am glad since it is not useful in the long run anyway. Faith

Using plurals takes care of the awkward he/she. Try it.

Example--

A good attorney is prepared to defend her/his client.

Good attorneys are prepared to defend their clients.

The method of inclusion I most enjoy is the random use of he and she throughout a book. Some general references are "he" and some are "she." School texts in math, for example, use this method successfully.

Current textbooks are solving the awkward he/she and his/hers problem by switching back and forth between singular pronouns in examples.

For example, when an example is given, it is given in the singular with either a man or a woman as the subject. The appropriate pronoun is then used in the remainder of the example.

The next example that occurs will have the reverse.

And so on.

I have grown used to this system and I like it. Examples in the plural are just not as specific-sounding as ones in the singular.

Maryal

I've been reading the book but this is the first time I've been in here. When I saw the "politically correct" discussion, I thought someone meant that the author had softenend or minimized the negative treatment of women in Jacob's time in order to avoid alienating the modern reader (male). Am I male-bashing? Don't mean to, but I really thought that women's lives must have been rough in a primitive, male-polygamous culture. The females of Jacob and Esau's families weren't even introduced to the males at that first encounter! How dispensible! You have no doubt already discussed this, but I'm a newbie without time to go back and read all posts, so forgive me. Sometimes it seems that those who protest political incorrectness are paralyzing honest observations.

Jo, as someone else wrote, who knows what was meant by the claim that Daimant was being "politically correct." I would add to your last sentence that whether someone is protesting political correctness or incorrectness, the claim itself is a way to avoid specific discussion. It's like blasting someone for being conservative or feminist or engaging in male-bashing----those are substitutes for substantive comments but do succeed in minimizing the book/discussion at hand. The value of what is written/told is lost. The speaker/writer is left with criticism, but not a response.

I didn't see this story as "politically" anything. I viewed it as a women who appreciates the warm messages of other women. What about these women? One, for example was Meryt, Dinah's friend who shared laughter and tears; Dinah took such delight in her. Meryt, so full of surprises and joy, she was unfailing in her kindness. How do you feel about her "sending Leah back" to Dinah?

ALF-----Welcome back! Are you back?

I see the novel as a woman's imagining of what the lives of the wives of the patriarchs may have been like both from the outside and the inside.

Hi Jo and welcome. Yes, I agree that the old Politically Correct phrase simply gets in the way of understanding and true discussion.

AND I don't see any male-bashing (another term I dislike) going on. Jacob is the one who wrestles with God (or an angel) all night. That's how he gets his name Israel. He is a cheat and a mommy's boy among other things. This information is in the Biblical account.

And it is clear to me that Diamant is familiar with Genesis. There are references to it everywhere.

I do like the woman's point of view in this novel. We focus on women and what they do---cook, doctor, aid in childbirth, produce children. AND we get to see personalities.

As Jo points out, the women are not even fit to introduce when Jacob and Esau have their reunion.

Maryal

Daimant's book IS political. It's political in many ways and not in others. It doesn't seem to be Daimant's delivery system for her (American government) political beliefs. The authenticity and meticulous research speak to a genuine effort to look at things from an unusual perspective---women's perspective. New glasses. Different lenses. Hilltop instead of valley. Daimant's obvious intelligence, though, leads me to believe she thoroughly understands how broadly political this different approach is.

The dictionary's definition that comes closest in spirit/meaning is---"the total complex of relations between people living in society."

The book is political in that it's personal. The personal is political. A person decides to adopt a bi-racial child, or have an abortion. A woman tells her sister she's decided, as a widow, to move in with a widower without getting married. Later, under pressure and criticism, she marries. A single man wants to adopt a child, or work out of his home and do most of the childcare. A senior decides he's going to divorce his wife of 37 years---she has never been employed. A senior can't afford medical prescriptions. Those are all so personal and they are also political. Their weight is greater than face value. None of these can be accomplished in a vacuum.

The book is political because it speaks to many things that are deeply important to us and many of those things are interwoven into a complex world of ethical dos and don'ts, laws, religious beliefs, ancestry, personal freedom, personal safety, etc. This book is particularly political because it touches on particularly person things---slavery of small girls, childbirth, invisibility, love, custody of children, murder of a husband at the hands of a brother, women loving and supporting each other---they are not invisible to each other. Sharing the role of wife with other women. Marriages depending on available bride price. Very personal. Very political.

I can see where Betty is coming from here.

Much of that which is very personal to us

If given a "topic heading", as it were

Comes, then, under a topic which is much bandied about in the political arena.

There is SO much in that political arena that we feel strongly does not belong there.

But it is not within our power to control what is and is not a political topic.

In this sense, yes, this is a very political book. Too sad that we come to view it that way. Too sad that someone, offended by who knows what, saw it as "politically correct."

But I just love the book and celebrate this great gift the author has given us.

I am becoming confused as to what you(editorial you,not specific) mean by "politically correct book". What could anyone mean by saying that. Betty has correctly defined Political as a term when applied to topics that are personal. So I stand on the side of any who feel that Diamant did not think of the book as for or against anyones agenda, just that it was a book about and from the perspective of woman. The men are cerainly just left in the background with fairly accurate bibical descriptions of their lives. She only rounded out the Character the slave and then not as she did the women. Faith

Faith---Yes, the men are in the background with supporting roles, a reversal of the stories in Genesis where the women are in the background. I think this book is well imagined. Diamant has researched life at the time. For example, there is mention of putting henna on feet. At this time Egyptian women applied henna to the bottoms of their feet. I assume they did this to decorate themselves. In a hot climate where they were barefoot, they must have painted their feet instead of investing in unneeded shoes.

Maryal

Maryal: Kohl was painted on the eyes "to be far seeing", henna on the feet and the palms. I might be way out off the mark here but didn't this denote an act of sacrifice somehow?

Faith" I am total agreement with this story being from a woman's prospective.There have been few reads that I feel have dedicated themselves to this.

ALF----Thanks. Didn't know that about Kohl. However, the same idea, darkening the eye, is used today by football players and other athletes. You can certainly see farther if you have black stuff on your eyes. Why was henna used on the feet and hands? Guess I need to get some info. on Egypt.

Where are you, Herodotus, when I need you?

Maryal

Why the hands and feet I'm not sure, Maryal. It was an ancient form of decorating and body painting, I know. It was to "pay homage" to the body by enhancing a womans beauty. This throne of sisters already was filled with beauty, by our lovely Rachael with her obsidion-black eyes, "the depth of a well."

There are some interesting places on the net to visit about henna painting..

http://www.hennapage.com/henna/

I had an older sister Dolores, she passed away at age 57. She got her Univesity of San Francisco Baccalaurate degree posthumously as she had just complete her finals when she died. Her major was Eng. Lit. and of course her house was filled with books.

She spent all her life trying to get that degree. She was born in 1922, (1980) and did her first year at San Jose State but had to quit to help my mom take care of (money wise) the family. She was always my mentor. She truly saw that I got a sort of education even if I was kicked out of highschool.

She guided me in my reading. Once she spent some time in England and investigated what that meant "reading for the law" or what ever. Then she came home with a lot of Lesson Plans so we could study by ourselves Eygptology for instance. So we spent about 5 years just reading her book list. God, I wish I could remember all we learned. Seems like a waste that I have forgotten so much. Yet, when we talk about these things, henna for instance, kohl, etc. then back comes my background so I guess it was not a waste.

I read the Red Tent without having to go to many resources to see what she was talking about. Thanks to Dolores. She was a born teacher and feminist. She brought me the first feminist books I ever had. I drink a toast to her every time I understand something for it is because of her teaching that I know anything at all.

Please bear with me. I think this is a tribute to her but more to EDUCATION for without her devotion to it, I wouldnt have done the amount of work I did, then I would not have understood you women, then I would have missed out on joining a rare and beautiful group of women. Faith

Oh Faith how beautiful a salute to your sister and how blessed we are because of your posts. Thanks for sharing your private world with us.

Fabulous site Pat especially this Short history of Henna that includes a timeline with the possiblity of Henna being used in Israel as early as 8000 BC.

The first marriage of which there is any record took place between Avraham's son Yitzchok and his bride Rivka. The tradition of the matchmaker originates in this story, with Eleizer, trusted servant of Avraham, who sets out in search of a suitable wife for his master's son. Eliezer journeys to Avraham's homeland and stations himself at the town well, where all of the eligible girls gather daily to draw water. Eliezer asks for Divine assistance in choosing the right woman and, with the help of heaven, he finds Rivka. To this day it is said that all marriages are made in heaven. As a bride, Rivka was an example for all time of feminine modesty. The Torah relates that, upon first meeting Yitzchok in the Israeli dessert, she veiled her face. Rivka's veil would also have served to cover her hair, once she married. The Torah - specifically the Book of Isaiah - discusses women's head coverings. A husband, according to this source, is legally bound to provide his wife with basic necessities such as food, shelter and - a headdress!

The Jewish wedding as most of us know it became well defined in fifteenth century Europe, where weddings usually took place in shul on Friday morning, so that on Shabbos the next day everyone would be at leisure to celebrate.

Next to the ancient customs that have been transmitted from the Biblical era, Sephardic wedding rituals are some of the most exotic and ritually fascinating around. The "henna" ceremony, takes place in the home of the bride on the evening before her wedding, as symbolic prevention against the "evil eye". All present on this occasion have their faces, hands and feet stained yellow or reddish-orange. As part of the ritual, a variety of figures are marked out on the skin with a needle, and the henna - which is powdered then mixed with water into a paste - is worked in and brings the design to life. In the Sephardic tradition, the families of the bride and groom exchange henna paste, which is then spread on the ring fingers and feet of the couple to signify their upcoming union and encourage fertility.

Another good site is Henna in History among the specific examples there is an explination of a story of Soloman seeing Bilqis, the Queen of Sheba, lifting her skirt to cross what she thought was a stream but, was a glass trap set by demons to thwart Soloman's marriage plans. The demons warn Soloman she had hairy legs and when shaving them she could cut herself and therefore become imperfect. Bilqis feet and hands are decorated in dark henna.

Here are excerpts from a long essay on this site Henna Decorating that seem to combine the current use of Henna with the ancient.

A primary art used in marking rites of passage in the North African, Middle-Eastern, and South Asian cultures is the ornamental application of henna paste on the skin. Traditionally, the application of Henna is a ritual that takes many hours. Some examples of event and ritual in the North African/Middle-Eastern/South Asian cultures include physical adornment, female camaraderie, luck and protection, pregnancy and birth, engagement and wedding preparations, and eroticism.

In these cultures, it is less likely and even rare for the women to go outside their own homes to a public establishment for pampering and beauty purposes (with the exception of the "hammam" –public women’s baths). A woman or her female relatives may have a henna decorating party which satisfies these same bonding mannerisms. One woman will hold a friend’s or relative’s hand (or arm or foot) to decorate it; a gift of beauty, touch, and trust, from one to the other. Many ladies will sympathize with another’s plight, congratulate one for their good fortune, and in general show good will by touching. And, all the while, interesting stories and local gossip will be shared and enjoyed.

Regardless of how seriously each culture observes luck and protection from evil, decorative signs or talismans are visible in both. Medallions and religious amulets do exist in the North African/Middle-Eastern/South Asian cultures, but there are particular henna designs that are reputed to bring good luck and protect from harm. The most common symbols are the many versions of the ‘khamsa’ (literally ‘5’) or Hand of Fatima, and an eye, symbolized in many ways which protects against ‘djinn’ (genies or malignant desert spirits) and the curse of the evil eye.

Women internationally combat the boredom and restlessness of the final stages of pregnancy with festive events. As American women throw baby showers for their friends and relatives, Middle-Eastern/South Asian/North African sisters may have a henna party for her. They will each decorate her and give her their personal blessings and wishes of good health for her and the baby. Particular designs and symbols will be decorated on her feet, ankles, hands, stomach and legs; many of these are specifically for the health and ease of birth for the mother and safe delivery of the baby. In a region of Morocco, immediately after the birth, the newborn child will have henna paste applied to the soles of its feet which are then pressed on the wall outside the doorway of the birth room. This is considered a very special and auspicious symbol of life and it’s divine blessings.

There are parties held and gifts given in preparation for the wedding celebration and married life, and as to preparing a woman for the bridal chamber, there is much instruction, very specific, on the erotic arts. The height of the preparations and instruction begins three days before the wedding ceremony. The future bride is treated like a princess in some of the foreign cultures, and derided in others to keep her humble. Either way, she is entertained to keep her mind off being nervous and scared, to pass time, and to put her in a receptive mood to learn the things that are passed down from generations of her female ancestors.

In some cases, the bride is to remain perfectly still and not speak, and in others, she is not to do any housework, walk around or use her hands. During this time she may have her hair hennaed by a happy laughing woman for good luck and beauty. She will definitely have a rich and ornate henna decoration applied by her loving family and friends. How much henna decoration she will have depends on how wealthy her family or future family is; an affluent bride will have henna decorations traversing from finger tips to shoulders, all over her feet, ankles, legs, and often over many other parts of her body as well. In order to send the bride off right and with the best of blessings and luck, it is desirable for the henna decoration stains to be as dark as possible on the skin. The darker red or red-brown it is, the longer it will last. The darker and longer it lasts is said to be representative of how long and deep the love between husband and wife will be.

Another aspect of henna decorating for the wedding ceremony is the bridal chamber instruction given to the bride. This also helps pass time, gives the bride more confidence in how to please her husband, and how to keep physical love alive in their marriage. Often bawdy songs will be sang, suggestive dances done and blatantly sexual tales shared. This is entertaining to all present, and also is supposed to help make the bride excited about the honeymoon. For the bridegroom to have a bride with lots of intricate henna decorations is considered very good luck; the more hennaed she is, the longer it took to decorate her. The longer it took to decorate, the more blessed she is and more instruction she was given in the erotic arts; a win-win for both bride and groom.

Once alone, the groom will examine and admire his bride’s henna decorations. By some customs, he may not consummate the marriage until he finds his initials or name in her decorations, which could be anywhere, and could take hours to find. This could be rather frustrating for the poor groom, but lends to much enjoyment for both in the search.

At wedding preparation henna parties where women share honeymoon tales, a woman told the group about her Iranian grandmother’s wedding henna which featured ancient Persian poetry written on the inside of her legs, leading to a heavenly honeymoon paradise. This brought much laughter and gaiety, and others shared similar anecdotes of erotic henna decorations of flowers and fruit in similarly strategic locations.

To most Middle-Eastern/North African/South Asian men, the mere site of a henna decoration on their mate arouses desire; the smell of the herb’s paste left on the skin causes the same reaction. This probably brings back memories of his wedding night. An affectionate wife will have henna decorations done as a surprise for her husband, for both their enjoyment.

PatW---Great link! Thank you. I spent a while reading and discovered that henna was used by Canaanite women in pre-Biblical times. It is mentioned in the Bible as "Camphiro" in The Song of Solomon (Songs).

And I discovered that girls got special designs for when they got their first period.

Henna was/is used for decoration, beauty, luck. Apparently it is also used to condition hand and feet. Now that makes sense---think about walking around all day in a sandy place.

I recommend PatW's link for any of you who would like to see some of the lovely designs that people make.

Maryal

That first marriage spoken of was when Abraham's son Isaac married Rebecca. We are not accustomed to their Hebrew names.

Lovely, Faith! Thank you so much.

Faith: Your post is by far the most heart warming tribute I have read since joining here. I was truly moved. How fortunate for both you and your sister to have had that time together.

Faith--That's a lovely tribute to your sister Dolores and to education! I wish I had had a bond like that with my older sister.

Barbara--Thanks for the additional information on henna. Before today I only knew about henna used on the hair. I had no idea that the same plant provided the makings of all those lovely body decorations that I've seen in museums. Even old dogs can learn.

Maryal

Faith, there's a mentor in my life like your sister was in yours. I was only a few words into your beautiful tribute before I thought of Lucia Gilbert, my true mentor, who was a professor at University of Texas at Austin when I was there. She's recently taken on the post of Vice Provost of the UT system over undergraduate education---48,000 students. The provost (president) is basically responsible for public relations, finances, grants, legal issues. It was an amazing move for Lucia, as she often fought alone against so many parts of the whole university system. Once I heard her remark, just before a scheduled presentation on the state of safety for female students on campus, that once again they wouldn't like what she had to say and once again, she thought she might be closing off all chances for advancement. "One of these days, they're going to fire me." The 7 years I was there, I saw the price she paid just in the one department. It was a hard life. I did hear from another friend after she accepted the new post that no one but Lucia was surprised about it---that respect for her had grown and grown.

In her classes I took, gender issues in psychology, psychology of women, basic and advanced research, and others, people of all backgrounds and interests signed up---some committed, some just curious---and we all left irrevocably changed. Maybe two years into my knowing her and complaining about her (she was relentless in standards of study and work), I began to understand how impossible it was to un-know what she was teaching us. Her methods were simple. She taught us through the written work of the best thinkers, researchers, writers. Her semester reading list for each course was brutal, or, as we thought, impossible to complete by semester's end. She was famous for the impossible lists. The semester take-home final was equivalent to a masters thesis, we all complained. "Referencing what you've read this semester, discuss the......" My stomach is tightening this minute. The interesting thing, though, is how large her classes were and how people fought to get in before the classes filled.

By the time I graduated, we were good friends and I had served as her teaching assistant several semesters (in the middle of each semester I'd wonder if I'd lost my mind and vowed to never do it again). That was nearly ten years ago. Not a year goes by that I don't realize in yet another way how different my life is because of her. Faith, I've had the identical thought you wrote about being able to understand what 'you women' are talking about---all because of Lucia. What I talk and write and think is a new version of me after Lucia. All the way from speaking up for myself and other women to not seeing men as "opposite" or the enemy. (And declaring to her where I disagreed with her.) Her feminism was radical, fierce, and so was her insistence that we read and meet in person some extraordinary men doing work in (new) male psychology. Her own research looks at how husbands and wives with careers, not just jobs, find ways to raise a family, juggle two careers, deal with changing roles for men and women. The books written from the results of her studies detail some surprising creativity that these couples employ---but repeatedly reveal how unique each couple is, how personal and individual their answers/solutions to all the challenges they face.

I didn't read before I knew Lucia. Not the kind of reading we do here in our book discussions. Reading good literature was a by-product of the joy/changing I was experiencing through academic reading---those damned reading lists.

I have a thousand story-memories. Like the day she told us of HER mentor. Jessie Bernard, a woman of no distinction, was living an ordinary life and IN MID-LIFE began to read on her own. She decided to read everything written on women's issues (a few decades ago) and to find grant money to do formal studies on the changing lives of women. She was not part of a university system. She met state and federal research standards on her own, spurred by her own curiosity. Bernard's books, the first written when she was mid-50s, are still relevant and highly respected today. Lucia told us she had just graduated from college with a chemistry degree when she read Jessie Bernard's first book. That book and her subsequent correspondence with Bernard changed the direction of Lucia's life. One reason we loved the telling of this "mentor" story was that we usually saw Lucia in her all-business mode. We were transfixed with this teary, emotional Lucia as she told of her Jessie Bernard.

I haven't seen Lucia in ten years but we write long letters with our Christmas cards and I sometimes get a long distance call from someone who says she's 45, thinking of going to graduate school, wondering how she'll ever make it through a 6 year psychology program, worried about money, etc., etc. Lucia has given her my phone number. Sometimes, depending on the person calling, I tell the Jessie Bernard story. Two of these women, neither of whom I've met, have stayed in touch, giving me updates on their school progress and (while Lucia was still teaching her classes) both complaining about the semester's reading list! I write back, invoking the spirit of Jessie's and Lucia's encouragement, always wondering if I'm saying the right things.

________________________________

Now I'm curious about others who have had mentors, as Faith and I did. Not just mentors, but anyone who had an influence or a part in bringing us to this reading of The Red Tent.

What surprised me was that Henna is a plant-- of course learning how long it has been in use as a decorative art form it would have to be plant, animal or mineral wouldn't it-- I guess I thought it was a mineral that was a compound of soil and other ingrediants that may have included oils. One of the links to Pat's site gave a recipe that included lemon juice and another recipe included mud.

The Lemon juice must act as an acid so typical of a mordant when creating dyes. I'm curious enough now that I would love to find some seeds and try to grow Henna and than try making some dye with the leaves. The RED TENT includes the use of a spindle but doesn't say much about weaving as an activity. Logic would tell me that with goats and the spindle work also included would be much time at the looms.

I still have a book about the lives, tents, costumes, jewellery, dyes and textile tools, felts and woven goods of the Qashqa´i Nomads from Iran. I can't help believe that many of their ways are similar to the ways of Laban, Jacob in their camps in the desert.

In the chapter that includes the discriptions of the Qashqa´i tents there is an explination that wealth and status is established by how many tent poles are visable at the front. Seven or more (up to 14) shows a tent of sufficiant size to allow the owner to be lavishly hospitable.

Kitchen equipment is kept in hammock-like cradles and along the back of a tent are laid a pile of stones that not only helps support the tent but is a base for the pile of bags which hold rice, grain, and other dry foodstuff, clothes, stacked bedding and cushions. The ground is laid with felt and carpets with the best carpets rolled out only for guests.

We read of the livestock and it's value but I never really had the understanding of value till I read that, tribal individuals can only secure a livelihood by investing their capital on either immovable or movable resources, basically land or animals. Investment in animals is more profitable but, is also subject to greater risks if nautral pastureland is relied on for feed.

A tribe is a political affiliation of people that tends to generate self-perpetuating and mutually exclusive groups which, in the absense of commmunications, give rise to what have been called ethnic divisions. Rather than a bureaucratic system the tribe becomes a confederation of personnel with allegiances expressed in terms of kinship.

I know a wordy explination but for me it helped put in place the relationships between the family members and adds to how out of sinc Dinah must have felt when she lived in Egypt where people were governed within a bureaucratic system.

Betty we are posting at similar times - what a great post - you and Faith, both having some wonderful woman in your lives - it is something we read about but few of us experience. Or rather no, I have not experienced a mentor. My only climb has been a feeling of curiosity that has only been satisfied by reading and asking questions and my personal journey that brought me face to face with woman's issues because of abuse.

I remember as a young wife being so confused because I came face to face with being less than and treated like a ding bat by doctors and bankers and even grocery clerks. Being the oldest and responsible for more than the average child I never understood why other woman were shocked when I expected to do some of the things I did back in the 50s. So when woman's issues hit even though I had been beaten down I was saying, well finally-- why is this so difficult for others to understand and why do we have to fight for equality-- although, I am sure there are many issues that I still need to be instructed because I have believed and acted out based on a traditional place for woman.

I am so glad that you Betty and Faith oh and Maryal and Alf and MaryPage and Pat and Lorrie and...and...and...all strong woman who are sharing their thoughts while reading this book. This is a privilege not often available.

What I envy in you, Barbara, is your drive, inquisitiveness, enthusiasm and energy. If I could only borrow a cup.

As much as I love the "written word" the reading of these last few posts are what it is all about here. YOU! What a wonderful group of warm women you all are. I was not so fortunate growing up but feel truly blessed for being allowed in your midst.

I too feel privileged to have such a reading group for The Red Tent. It seems to me that ideally this book should be read as we are reading it with our very own Red Tent set up right here on Senior Net.

Everyone's comments and research adds to my reading of this book. Barbara---I was intrigued by your reading about the nomadic tribe. Given the circumstances, wouldn't it be difficult to have all but the simplest looms? Traveling around requires portability.

While I was reading all there is to know (joke) about henna, I somehow ran into an interesting site about paper and papyrus and vellum and parchment. Papyrus also came from a plant. The Egyptians attached sheets of papyrus together to make their scrolls.

Amazing story of your mentor, Betty. I am so glad to hear that eventually she was rewarded instead of fired. How brave some women had to be to buck the system. And still have to be.

Barbara---I think sometimes we have to be our own mentors. Seems to me that you were yours and had a good one!

Maryal

<. Logic would tell me that with goats and the spindle work also included would be much time at the looms. > Barb. said. I think if I am not mistaken that the nomadic tribes "Felted" wool. Now this could be only in some parts of the world. They still do in parts of Asia such as Tibet and Mongolia. In the Near East, and Asia Minor I think it was later that weaving started. I am at a loss how to date it. Felting is a old old process and wool was soaked and beaten together in a mat. then dried, then wet down and beaten and dried again until the fibers "felted" together. This material lasted several lifetimes but could not be really laundried. Therefor Deuteronomy in the Bible book of laws has one law about throwing away inherited "cloaks" if they have any mold in the seams. We may wonder at the list of unusual laws but not when we see how the people lived. I can imagine a cloak that had taken many months to make, being handed down more than one generation. Faith

It has occurred to me over and over again that the dietary laws of the ancient Jews were all based on keeping the people from getting sick. People were Told they had a religious basis and that "God said" not to do thus and so. But I think the truth was that the wise among the tribes made note of certain things that seemed to kill numbers of their people and then set up the laws in such a way that the majority would follow them.

This was probably also the case with the clothing rule that Faith cites here.

Putting together the information from Feltmaking by Beverly Godon and The Qashqa'i of Iran published by the Whitworth Gallery at the University of Manchester U.K. The Qashqa'i a nomadic people used the typical flat looms of most nomadic tribes. The loom consists of two beams to which warp threads are attached. The beams are pulled apart and placed on two wooden pegs driven into the ground. Weavers either lift the threads by hand and drive the shuttle through or, use a simple heddle rod of plane wood that is attached by rope to a tripod built over the loom made from three poles. When the rope is pulled the shed is created. An additional rod is inserted so that when the rope is released a counter shed is created. This is unlike the vertical carpet looms of the town weavers.

Spindles are purchased from itinerant tinkers and they often spin while on horseback during migration. Threads have either an s or z twist with various ply required for tent-cloth, knotting a carpet, storage bags, baby cloth etc.

Today less of the tribal woman prepare their own dyes. When dying was common, according to the plants available, there were essentially only 4 or 5 colors. Reds, yellows, Indigo, nuts that make various browns to black.

Although there are some surviving felt pieces from their ancient past they used very little felt as compared to the peoples in the north. Felt was protection from the extremes of heat and cold and provides insulation and is waterproof but their tents were woven cloth unlike the yurts of northern regions. The survivng pieces are the typical hat, shepherd's cape, and shoes. The Qashqa'i use felt for flooring the tents, as saddle-cloth, hats, mats, water pipe bags, shepherds' socks and coats/caps used during sever cold weather when they migrate to the northern mountains.

The oldest piece of felted fabric found is dated about 1500BC with these older pieces found in Scandinavia, Germany and Siberia. One Scandinavian cap is dated from the Bronze age-- 1400-1200 BC.

Legend has it that felt was discovered because Noah attempted to make his ark more comfortable by padding the floor with sheep's wool. By the time the journey of 40 days and nights had passed, the loose wool had turned to a matted fabric-felt- by the preassure and moisture of the animals. Another legent has a tired, footsore camel driver taking some of the soft hair from his camel and putting it in his sandals. By the time the caravan had reached its destination, he, too, had discovered felt.

Felt was found in tombs from about 500 BC. Felt was extremely important for saddles and a vital role in the lives of those from Turkey, Afghanistan, Northern Iran, Mongolia, Chinese and Russian Turkestan.

In nomadic tribes felt making was an annual event, usually taking place in September, it is a family project that the woman were in charge of overseeing. Nomadic woman look down upon the city men that engage in felting, carding wool and setting looms, this they consider woman's work.

The tome on the Qashqa'i says;

A number of writers have expressed surprise that works of art might be produced by people with such a ferocious reputation, which is an unconsciously arrogant assumption of Western urban mentality.

Very little has been written about the role of the women, doubtless because so many of the travellers and anthropologists have been men, except to say, with truth, that they work extremely hard. Yet, within some limits, the woman have been available for observation-- nomadic woman have seldom been vailed, they are a considerable force within the family...since spinning, dying, weaving and knotting has been in their hands they have played a crucial part in preserving the cultural traditions and symbolic designs of the tribes, a reversal of the roles in comparrison to the West where women artists and craftsmen have been comparatively rare.

Hey MaryAl: Perhaps we can find an itinerant tinker on our trek to Canterbury and "spin" away on the backs of our palfreys.

Barbara: You certainly have created a humorous vision of dear old Noah's ark.

As I've mentioned ziggy-fillion times, this story reminds me so much of She Who Remembers, especially in regard to the way the cultures and traditions were preserved by the women.

Early in this book's discussion I said for me it was a good book because it served as a spring board to so many other learning experiences--and now reflect of the many and varied topics that have come up! Some of you are just awesome in your contributions, both your personal experiences and your research--it is like our own "red tent" only better because gender doesn't restrict admission. Yvonne

Yvonne, what a nice thing to say. I love that analogy-- a spring board to learning. Yes! We do have our own little "red tent" and the best part of that is we always welcome others to join in. We are happy to have you here. What part of the story did you enjoy the most?

We can have the guys join us in our tent because we are all post menopausal!

well!!, such untoward thoughts!

I'll bring the wine.

Maryal are you shocked by Marypage? How dear. In tooling around looking for information on Jacob I came across something about names that fascinated me. Opened a new line thought in my mind though it is not really pertinant to The Red Tent it is fascinating,since you are both named versions of Mary...I will share it here: Joshua bar Miriam I have read someplace that Joshua bar Miriam is the likely Jewish name of the man commonly called Jesus Christ. Jesus is a likely Christian version of the Jewish name Joshua; just as James is of Jacob, and Mary of Miriam. The word bar means son of the female or son of the mother; whereas, ben signifies son of the male or son of the father.

It is argued that Joshua would have been called Joshua bar Miriam instead of Joshua ben Joseph because of the unmarried state of his mother at conception, which some refer to as 'virgin birth.' To put it another way, Joseph was not Joshua's father; therefore, Joshua could not be named Joshua ben Joseph, but he was the son of Miriam, so he could be named Joshua bar Miriam.

Sounds right to me!

Or am I sitting in the corner, forbidden to speak?

Faith---Well, no, I wasn't shocked. I was playing. I figured someone ought to be SHOCKED. Hehehehehe. Yes, Jesus is Joshua and Miriam is Mary.

MaryPage---You come out of the corner right now! (You did know I was kidding, didn't you?)

hahaha Marypage, that must be a joke. We would be lost without you. Please speak even if you (speak about inviting men into a tent!! !)I have a :.) face for you. In my hotmail messanger program when I type that I get an icon with a Happy Face I like it and wish it worked in all my typing of posts. I have finished re reading the book. I have promised to lend it to my daughter. I hate to give it up but she will bring it back . Some books we need tokeep and read several times. I know this is one of those for me. And the other day I wished I could keep a copy of the whole discussion but that is impractical. I just am new at finding such a wonderful place to learn and grow. Imagine that ..at 73 my mother was also learning. She took up a study of her family background, not geneology but just reading all she could of English history and the Stuart kings and the Seymore royal cousins too and my sis Dolores kept her reading the best books. Even her fiction reading was almost exclusively on the same subject. So in a few years she was an authority on the subject. How dear it was to be able to have conversations about what she learned when she was in her ninties/ So I will never stop trying to learn new stuff. So Mary page you keep ona talkin' Faith

No problem, Cousin Maryal. You and I have a strong affinity for persiflage, as does our friend Robby. I understood PERFECTLY that you were having fun with me.

Thank you for those words of friendship, Faith. Very warming to this old heart.

Faith, I envy your interesting (book) conversations with mother and sister. I've had to find mine outside of family and, it seems, for only temporary stretches. That's why these book (and other) discussions here fill such a need. Thanks to you all for that.

We owe you more thanks than you owe us, Miss Betty!

Yes Betty, we do owe you thanks. So often your comments open a lively discussion off on a line of thought that is new to our discussion. Also want to philosophize for a moment about this discussion and one other I was in with Betty commenting off and on,

I have been quite open in my recall of my life and often may have sounded as if the past was still hurting me. Well, it was untill I was in my fifties. The last social worker psychiatric worker who led a group therapy I was in finally(after all the men Psychatists) led me back into a life with no regrets, and that is true today with no reservations.

i feel that I have been blessed. So much of the past is right there in my memory. However, the pain and physical reactions that accompanied those memories are gone. She Kathy, was actually trained to help children survive being torn away from their family when they were molested by a family member. This gave her a different perspective than any DR I had had for my alcohol in the 40's and then the depression in my other session in hospital or treatment. She treated me as the children. She gave me stuff to draw, played in a sandbox. We played in a doll house. I couldnt wait to go to our sessions because she took me right back to my childhood where the hurt was and we got it dug out..Not as an adult rationalizing it but as the child experiencing it.

Now I believe she is the first one that said "this depression is not chemical, took me off the meds, did her thing and in a period of 24 hour sessions one year I was free of medications and not drinking of course, and I was seeing what a Healthy person I must be to be going to work evryday, buying my own house, my own furniture, doing everything for myself that needed be done. I was a no longer a victim, not even a survivor, I no longer was a manic depressive, or any of those "names" I was a health woman, living a life as successfully as I could, and I have not had any true pain or regrets about the past. I can talk about it. I can write about it.I still have a visit 4 times a year with a psychiatrist but it is to keep my county share of mental health assistanse active.

I was able to share much here in the little red tent that was created and from some of my e-mail I have possibly helped a few others release past pain, at least begin the process.

I would hope that every woman who has suffered (most have) pain from sexual abuse whether it was incest or not, whether it was as a child or not, would get to a group therapy where it could be talked about face to face with others.

With love and appreciation. Faith

Blessings and a crown of wildflowers for Miss Faith!

Yes, I find it remarkable, too, what healthy things can happen when women are together. Together in many formats, formal group therapy, support groups, old-style consciousness raising, even here as we discuss books and the relevant issues raised by the books.

I've done my share of group therapy, too, as participant, then as leader. A funny story waaaay back when I was training to be a therapist and one whole semester a group of students WAS a therapy group---for the experience of participating. At first, it was somewhat artificial, then as we got into it, we settled into a real experience of it. Boy, did we learn a lot about ourselves. Among other things, the professor/leader kept saying to me, I see it's hard for you to let someone hurt. I was so new/naive and my gut reaction was to take the hurt away---not realizing that experiencing it fully (with time to find out what it's about) was an integral part of therapy. I thought you'd find that amusing because---as you can attest---it is still a gut reaction to jump into the fray when I think someone else has been wronged or is hurting. (Still getting in trouble for it.)

New Subject. Men--should they have been a part of this discussion. I don't have a definite yes or no to that question, but I feel good about two things. We didn't spend any time at all wishing men were here or wondering about it or finding out why not. We just naturally enjoyed the presence of women. I think the discussion was different because of it. Not better, incidently, just different.

I'm going to tell something on someone I like very much. In an email back to Charlie Wendell (about scheduling the book White Teeth, I think), I added, "Your absence in Red Tent discussion is duly noted, understood and appreciated." I assumed he had purposefully, after finding the book and providing all the links, etc., bowed out of the discussion---acknowledging, maybe, the value of women discussing this book as a women-only group. I wanted to let him know I appreciated the gesture. Almost immediately, same day, anyway, he posted all that good information on something we were discussing. WELL!!!, I thought, he answered me!! It made me laugh---at my wrong assumption, or maybe at how he demonstrated he had decided no such thing.

I still have thoroughly enjoyed the all women discussion. AND, I'm still thinking Charlie did this out of respect or awareness of some sort, even though his quick post doesn't support that. The BEST thing, though, is that no one mentioned it. Our gathering was enough.

There is an old, half-page essay I've got tucked away somewhere. It describes a group of older women who have "come into their own" in late life and are sitting around a table talking. A younger woman has joined them. After a while, 2 men come into the room and, even as the younger woman looks up, anticipating that talk will be interrupted and attention focused on the men, THE OLDER WOMEN KEEP TALKING. No One looks up. Their attention does not turn to the men. The younger woman has never experienced that before! It is her essay describing the moment.

About "the BEST thing"---I meant that no one mentioned that we needed men. Charlie would have been welcomed either way. I appreciate him so much that I probably don't say it enough.

Must be the position of the moon today.

Been busy - Tents (houses) have become so expensive here in Austin that it is quite a challange trying to help a client find some decent property that is not so far out that it takes over an hour to get home from work in a price range under $150,000. It is scary, the prices have increased 20% just since March! Well between work and my daughter visiting from SC I have been trying to take highlights to share with y'all about the history and development of the Bible and Torah.

This book is faciniating-- Surpassing Wonder The Invention of The Bible and The Talmuds, by Donald Harman Akenson. I am only about 1/3rd through it and I have learned tons. As I had shared in earlier posts, I do not have a background in the ahuh "Old Testement." I say ahuh because right off I learned, that wording is an example of Christian arrogance. The better expression is 'Before Common Era.'

The book is written with much scholarship. Everything is not only referenced but Bible scholars and their research and opinions are shared-- Akenson seems to be gathering Bible history, historians, anthropologists, language specialists, all under one roof so to speak.

In many respects I do wish I had a working knowledge of the Before Common Era Bible stories so that when they talk about the Maccabees I know what, where, when and who but than, without having this background I am not emotionally tied to the Book as a sacred cow and can more quickly be in awe without half the proof Akenson offers of how the changes occured that we think, today, go back to the beginning of time or of the Bible.

There is too much for me to share in one sitting so I'll start tonight and pick up tomorrow. Although I am sharing excerpts I am quoting the author-- leaving out pages of proofs and additional ways to understand. And yes, I am selective to what hit me over the head.

The Hebrew Bible not only is a book of puns, irony and occasional jokes, it is like a set of stage directions and every word has a second and third meaning. It is HISTORY and the Talmuds tell us to the think critically about the issues raised. If you believe the Bible is inerrant in every word and that the Almighty was the author, which is a matter of faith, then Bible scholarship is not for you...You can appriecaite Bach without believing in the Mass.

By a circuitous route our own alphabet is a descendent of Ancient Hebrew. Our historical beginning is with the the Iron Age in Palestine and not with the Greeks that have been so admired by Christians throughout history.

There have been more than 60 translations into English...some fine like the New English Bible of 1960 and 1970...some painful like the Revised Standard of 1880. The first English translation was by the English martyre Willam Tyndale in 1526. Largly assimilated into the Genevia Bible in 1560. King James in 1611 is roughly 90% of Tyndale's edition. The Gospel of John became a beautiful piece of Lit... far beyond what was found in the Greek.

The heart of scripture is a convenant made with God. The convenant being that, the Chosen people were brought out of Egypt, led to freedom and settlement of the promised land. Sacrifice is part of the bargin in which the Chosen People kill something valuable, in turn God blesses them or at least does not punish them.

The Bible, Genesis through Kings is a unified entity. It was written during the Babylonian captitivity by a horoic unkown. His life and profile are given by Akenson He is more historian - editor than author who put together a detailed record of the past.

Only a minority, 10 to 20 percent of the population, went into captivity. Farmers and the poor were left behind. Skilled carpenters and Blacksmiths were removed fearing they could rebuild the city and the political and religious elites were removed as potential trouble makers. They are the good figs and the poor figs remain along with those dwelling in Egypt.

Those in Egypt were losing Hebrew as their first language. The exiled could not get in touch with Yahweh because under the covenant direct approach was only through an idol. The Idol being the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark.

The top leaders, as standard Babylonian practice, were indoctrinated in Babylonian learning which was prodigious. Although, they were permitted sufficient concentration to coalesce, to preserve their language and their literary and religious traditions. The exiles were very conscious that they were the keepers of the nation's heritage.

These elite were sick to their very marrow with fear, longing and loss. Fearing they, nor their children, nor their children's children would see Jerusalem or worse those thick-necked peasants would grab control of the holy sites and the ritual offices. Surveying this spiritual wasteland, the young scholar would help them-- gather up the most important things that could be known of the history and worship of his people and place it in one set of scrolls. He wrote historically because that was the way his culture had tought him to think. Later upon their return to Jerusalem written was the oral; hymns, epic poems, folk tales, law cases, sagas with the Book of Esther being the last book admitted to Hebrew Canon.

The early book has two names for God. As in the south Yahweh and Elohim as in the north in Isreal. Although northern priests find their way south bringing with them their chronicles the author-editor-historian creates a culture of Imperialism establishing Isreal as a colony of Judah, a victory.

The heart of the Hebrew scripture Genesis through Kings is a climate of Victories. Judah over Israel.

Access to the Almighty is a monopoly that is given to the priesthood. Yahweh is the convenant-cutter. Priestly control is absolute-- there were alternatives to Yahweh-- the canaananite BAAL and a handful of "EL" gods. Because of the narritive force of the editor-writer-historian the plural Gods come to mean the singular God. He is simply toughest god on the block.

Yahweh closely resembles King David, touchstone in the south. The first complete bio. is of King David showing us a king who preserves his honor and power at all cost. He is agressive, he conqueres, everything else is secondary...that is exactly how a monarch should act. Yahweh is a war like God.

Well, I am having trouble with this concept of "That is exactly how a monarch should act." As I ponder I realize that if Churchill wasn't agressive, conquering with everything else secondary, Europe would be a different place today. So is that saying that the Chosen People had to fight agressively to assure victorious their one God and to carry out the covenant with that God?

This information that Genesis is part of that scripture in which everything is written as a victory better explains, regardless that I like it or not, the killing of Shalem and the righteous men of Shechem.

This concept of King David as an earthly example of God certainly justifies the martyrdoms and wars fought in the name of God.

This convenant is about being free and settling land, not going to a better place in the here-after. No wonder the Middle East Peace talks are so hard. It's all about God promising a place on earth not a place in heaven.

As I remember our story; when Jacob was fleeing and they all end up in Egypt-- I think by that time all four sisters are dead. Well, we do not really know where Bilhah is since she just disappears. So the sisters are never captives in Egypt. They are the daughters of the desert.

I've been lurking, and wanted to thank you, Barbara, for your great research. It's really enhanced my understanding of the story. I'm loving this book.

Barbara---I understand that the author you are consulting thinks that one hand wrote Genesis through Kings. While these books do most likely date from the period of the Babylonian Captivity, there is much internal evidence that there were many different authors as well as redactors. Genesis alone shows two distinct creation stories. There are two versions of Noah's flood.

The ten tribes of Israel--in the North--were conquered by the Assyrians in 721 BCE. These are the "ten lost tribes." The people were absorbed by other ancient peoples and never reunited.

In the South, we have Judah with its capitol, Jerusalem. Judah is conquered by Nebachadnezzar king of Babylon (598-587 BCE). The important people and the artisans and people of education were taken to Babylon.

The Temple was burned by Nebachudnezzar. It was rebuilt 520-515 BCE when the exiles returned home. I believe that this rebuilt temple is the one that remains until 70 CE when it is destroyed by the Romans.

I am not disagreeing with what you wrote, just trying to clarify a little. Biblical studies is a complicated field and there are many different points of view.

Maryal

Sarah T.---Please expand on your comments. You said that you are really enjoying the book. Tell us what parts you find most interesting or enjoyable.

Maryal

I am not a student of the Old Testament (or the new, for that matter), so it's wonderful to learn the story of the family at whose head stood the woman for whom I am named. I also love the descriptions of how people lived, what they ate, their natural surroundings. Of course, I love the concept of the red tent, in which women come together, have children, time their cycles to the cycle of the moon.

Diamant paints the picture of that time and those people so very vividly!

The other thing I love is the accessibility of the story and its characters even thought it took place 4000 years ago. I have to believe that it is in the human conditions to have feelings of jealousy, desire, anger and all the rest - but we don't always see them portrayed in historical stories.

Great read!

Befor I lent my book to Susan I flipped through the back to see if I had made any notes I wanted. In doing so I re read some of the ending when Dinah is mourning Myrt and dreaming of her mothers and says"Leah is the only one who doesnt cometo me(paraphrasing)she feels Ah well so now I am the only one left, I am the old one the wise woman the grandmother the greatgrandmother even. And for the first time her courses did not meet the moon. She is menopausal and so the years go for Dinah in Eygpt.As they do today for all women. I felt a loss then for her, but also renewal just like in my own life at and after menopause. We are the crones!!!Faith

Yes Maryal, the author acknowledges many views and speaks of the wasp nests of differences among scholars - as to the differing versions of the stories he speaks to that also, at length. Bottom line there is consensus among some scholars that those stories that the auther-editor knew he wrote them with ease - Oh I am not quoting now and I do not have time to get the quotes, I will tonight - at any rate the stories that are repeated with different versions are given with no assuredy as to which one is correct and therefore, they are all written. There is a third issues about sharing that I forget. There is also an issue as to which Book came when and then the big change, when the Hebrew Bible not only pulled out the 5 Moses books as the first and most important but by changes in the writting of these scrolls and finally into "The" book there are two references to Moses writting directly that are enlarged upon and he was gradually given credit for writting the books. Evidently the scrolls from the Quamran caves (Dead Sea Scrolls) have added some early translation that have scholars agreeing to some of the illusive history of changes in the Bible.

Maryal I realize, especially reading this tome, that this is a continuing exersize in scholarship. As I am sharing this author's scholarship, I've said, I am sharing just the bottom line of discussions that go on for pages as well as, the information that hit me. Even if all scholars do not agree with Akenson's line of thinking, many do and that allows me to see the happenings in the RED TENT from a different perspective.

Yes, your reminder of Bible dates are significant as gradully following the layout of the Book I will share what is said about the happenings around those dates. This does not seem to be a book solely devoted to Akenson's conclusions. The RED TENT has made me curious about this aspect of the history of man and, as I learn, I can appreciate better not only the differences between the Christian and Hebrew and Jewish view of God but also, Diamant's work writting the RED TENT.

I sent my copy of THE RED TENT to a beloved granddaughter who took a whole semester's course in GENESIS at Sarah Lawrence. She adored the book and called me with great enthusiasm.

The great flood is mentioned in the Hindi holy book, as well. It also appears in other histories.

Scientists believe it fits the ancient time when the sea broke through where Gibralter is now and formed the Mediterranean. An awful lot of very, very ancient history lies under that sea!

The scribes who originally wrote the old oral histories down, whoever they were, doubtless heard more than one version of things as they traveled. Not knowing which was correct, they may well have felt obligated to give us every tale they heard personally. Doubtless there were many, many more they did Not hear!

Whiner, I came back to reread your post and it's gone. I'm sure you're right, that we've ventured far from the book over and over again. I'm sure that's frustrating for those readers who don't have any interest in secular (or otherwise) bible scholarship or in some of our more personal sagas that go on (and on). I'm always one that is ready for "context"---which is almost limitless in my view (probably an unusual view). What I would hope is that if you or any other readers have, as you wrote, an interest in "getting back to Dinah in Egypt," that you'd just march right in with it. I count on you and others to haul us back in when we get lost "out there" in our other connected interests. "Hey you," I want you to say, "the book discussion is over here." So, please, bring us back to Dinah in Egypt. Start us off. What lingers for you about Dinah in her new home of Egypt?

MaryPat---Yes, it's in the Epic of Gilgamesh also. It must have seemed to the people of the Tigris-Euphrates valley that the whole world had been flooded when, of course, they had no idea of what the whole world was.

That is exactly right! They had no concept of 40, as in 40 days and nights of raining, either. That would have been put in eons later when it was written down and a large number was desired.

Betty, I like a lot of context when I read Any history, be it fiction or non-fiction, so I know where you are coming from and I think we are fellow travelers here.

I did think that Diamant's portrayal of Dinah's coming of age in the red tent was overdone. It was almost embarassing to read. I wish she'd been more subtle about the ceremony celebrating Dinah's first menstrual cycle. Did people really do this? It didn't seem at all believable.

Some questions for you all:

The messenger woman (red hair) that died. What ethnicity was she supposed to be? Lots of references to red in this book.

Is Zilpah a lesbian? Really - is this the source of her discomfort around men? Is there any historical evidence that she was?

What is going on with Bilhah and Reuben?

Of what ethnicity are the wives of Esau that don't observe the same rituals as Rebecca and her family? Are they the descendants of today's Egyptian Arabs?

Does the book talk much about Sarah/Sarai? What can you tell me about her? All my life, I've known nothing about her, I'm sorry to say, except that she was married to Abraham. I always found it odd that my father, whose name was also Abraham, named me after Sarah!

Do you find you can imagine yourself in the places Diamant describes? They are so vivid I can almost smell them. If you've ever read anything by Cormac McCarthy - his books about journeys across wide open spaces - I think you'll see a similarity.

Sarah:

I do not know whether or not they did that. Her reasons for Having them do it sound logical.

Do not know what background the messenger. Anthropologists state the original "Caucasions", from near Armenia, had red hair and green eyes.

Do not know what the author meant about Zilpah. I, personally, thought it was her slavery, religious beliefs, and personality. Lesbian did not occur to me; but you may be correct.

Bilhah and Reuban had an affair. THAT is part of the historical record and is in the Bible.

The wives of Esau were simply dropping the old customs women held to and which were much beloved by Rebecca. The author is exploring the unknown area here of just when and how female fertility functioning stopped being revered and began to be considered "dirty" and the women untouchable. For instance, in the Greek Orthodox churches, even today, a woman must approach a priest After childbirth to be cleansed of her filthiness and sin! The Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham and Hagar. Hagar was Sarah's handmaid, just as Bilhah and Zilpah were Rachel and Leah's handmaids. If you think it weird that their husband had sex with and children by their maids, well, it was just the same in the Old South! Seriously; think about it. Everything changes ......... and nothing changes at all!

Esau and his family did not go to Egypt, as far as we know.

The Bible contains, in Genesis, all that is known about Sarah. She was much loved by Abraham, was very beautiful, and was childless. Then, in her Very old age, she overheard God telling Abraham she would conceive. She was astonished, but she did. She gave birth to Isaac, father of Esau and Jacob.

Sarah T---You ask some wonderful questions. As to the coming of age ceremony, I have no idea whether or not such rituals were practiced. I do know that Diamant has done her research when it comes to Genesis, so I assume that she got this idea from somewhere. Your question is one I would very much like to ask the author.

The wives of Esau are Canaanites. Rachel doesn't want Jacob to marry any of the Canaanite women, so she sends him back to her homeland and her brother Laban.

When Sarah was very very old, way past menopause, she heard that she was to bear a child. Her response was to laugh. She bore Isaac whose name means "laughter." There is very little about Sarah in Genesis.

It never occurred to me that Zilpah was a lesbian, nor do I see any evidence in the novel.

And, yes, one of the reasons I like this novel is that it convinces me that I am there with Dinah, seeing and experiencing an ancient culture.

Sounds to me as if Biblical names run in your family! Do you have any siblings, and what are their names?

Maryal

It did occur to me that Zilpah was lesbian, but there was only her distance from men, nothing else. The author leaves it to us to imagine.

Oh, yes, Cormac McCarthy, hadn't thought of the similar gift of rendering "place." Exactly. Daimant's decriptions of each setting was probably my favorite part of the book---and carried me through the the overworked sections.

Zilpah was a religious not a lesbian in my humble opinion.(though some might say one is the other, I know catholics that say nuns are repressed homosexuals.) People will get impressions often, based on their own lives. We read and compare to make sense of a statement. This is one reason I love to get into the other books, the bible at least and a good encyclopedia and then I am not at a total loss.I have read some where and it may be in some black writers book, of a similiar ceremony for maturing young girls. It may have been in reference to old african rituals. I went looking for the reference but I could not remember the writers name. one horrible thing about 73. Faith

I, along with others, am writing a book on free activities for people over 40. I'm having difficulty finding information on free educational opportunities for seniors. Do you have any suggestions.

I suggest you let us know if you find any that are Really free!

Good luck! Sounds like a great service.

Wow, great questions Sarah and teriffic summery points for answers. Interesting I did not know "the original "Caucasions", from near Armenia, had red hair and green eyes." And Isaac's name means laughter, how much fun. I worked with a young chinese man a couple of years ago and his name was Happy. I never could speak his name without smiling.

Seems to me I vaguely remember reading something about the American Indian young woman menstruating in the fields to encourage the growth of corn in the arid southwest. Does that strike a bell with anyone?

Betty what sections did you think were overworked?

Faith I've only heard Catholics who have an issue understanding the choice of the nunnery for young woman having that comment. Years ago young girls were mostly looking for safty, they were very impressionable and had lots of support from the parants of large families to have a daughter out-of-the-house at often age 16. Parants of large families seldom could afford the care much less the advanced education that some nuns were priviledged to obtain. The nuns that did recieve the education though were those that could bring a large dowery with them when they entered the convent. Rather then being homo-sexual they were more often girls that had become a-sexual for very good reasons. My sister was a nun for some 25 years before getting out. She remains alone and continues to teach at the collage where she was teaching while a Dominican nun.

OK here is my summery of a little over a third of the book Surpassing Wonder... I have most of my answers now. What is the Torah and how is the Jewish faith different than the Christian faith or beliefs. Learning this has helped me see better some of what is going on in the Middle East today. Still do not know enough about the Moslem faith to connect the dots. So that will be next on my things to research.

As before, I am using the words of Akenson but not quoting his entire paragraphs nor in some instances entire sentences. Rather just the highlights are strung together.

Repetition of major elements is the way the culture changes the original meaning of an item. Repetition in different aspects of the story with a slightly different slant with each repetition. The major motifs are historical and cannot be abandoned but items like; Exodus, the covenant, nature of Kingship, reason for Blood sacrifice, concept of redemption can be redefined by repetition in new contexts. Dull things like; Dates, important players, things that readers will need little convincing will be reported quickly. The less the editor-writer has faith in them the more energy and detail and artistic genius is found in and given to those stories.

There are endless arguments among modern Biblical Scholars about whether or not Yahweh was ever a subordinate deity to "EL," a concert to "Asherah." BAAL sponsored by Ahab, king of Israel, who according to the editor-writer went head to head with Yahweh in a test of strength (I Kings 18: 17-40) Every time another God is mentioned the other God is identified as the false God.

In 587 BCE the Babylonian level the Temple of Solmon and forcibly remove from Jerusalem the remaining Judah religious elite, providing the exiled religious elite the choice of creating a new religious system or go extinct. This external cause and effect support the writing of the historical scroll and probably the scroll is completed about 550 BCE.

In 538 BCE the miracle-- the exiled were permitted, encouraged to return. The texts which come back include; Genesis-Kings, (This was Judahists Magna Carter, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and Constitution all wrapped in one.) a version of the Psalms, a large portion of the Major Prophets-- Book of Ezekiel, portions of Isaiah, probably the Book of Jeremiah and a handful of minor Prophets-- Amos, Hosea, Micah. A chunk of Tradition, texts that are now lost and others that remain speculative.

No longer a King of Judah the office of High Priest is established. The real energy for rebuilding the Temple comes from the Persian King. The Book of Malachi speaks of "lazy and unenthusiastic Priests, Intermarriage with non-Yahwehts."

The two that infuse enthusiasm and responsible for the great shift in the history of the Judahist faith are Ezra, a scribe expert in law (teaching) and Nehemiah. In the fifth century, around 450BCE, Ezra gathered the people each day to read the teachings (law) of Moses. Nehemiah and Ezra were sent and financed by the Persian King to sort out the problem in Jerusalem. Within a century of their activities were written the Books of Ezra-Nehemiah and of Chronicles replacing the testament of the Book of Kings with numbers that explain success and not failure.

The Book of Chronicles rewrites the story of finding the Book of Law in the first Temple during the rebuilding by King Josiah to "discovery" of the Book of Law on "Teaching" a "Book of Torah" saying that, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the Law of the Lord given by Moses. "The law of Yahweh given thought the hand of Moses," who is introduced as the hand who wrote at least part of the first five books of the scripture. The teachings of Moses becomes the TORAH of Moses.

Also, there is a huge discrepancy in the number of returning exiles versus those that remain during the Babylonian exile 587-538 BCE. Historical and anthropology research agrees that the Jewish population at the time was 150,000 and only a small number, about 10,000 went into exile with the majority, mostly in Palestine, staying behind. The Book of Chronicles reverse the sad reality with replaced triumph.

The library of scrolls at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) make it clear that by 200 BCE the Torah as the five Books of Moses were separate from the Genesis-Kings unity, the residue now called the Former Prophets. Within the Judahist belief the separation and privilege of the Torah was 460BCE when Chronicles was written. The Oral Torah concerned spiritual matters between Yahweh to Moses. Yahweh being the only one strong enough to capture Jerusalem from the local priests and multiple gods worshipped.

History after 587BCE have multiple third part witnesses such as archaeological and historical evidence found outside the bible. This is when the second deportation occurs to the end of Persian rule in 330 BCE when the major outline of Judahism was set, where as the central text focuses on ancient Israel. 330 BCE marks the end of the narrative chronicling of the Chosen People. The airs of Alexander rule Jerusalem until Maccabean Revolt of 167 BCE. During this time each and with each passing decade the Torah becomes more revered. The Torah, the Prophets form two of the three categories of the present Hebrew Bible.

The third the Kethuvim- the Writing, the product of the late Persian and Greek era. The talmudic Judaism called Rabbinic Judaism is in creation 70 - 600 CE. Every Christian Document is written after 70 CE.

Building Herods Temple took 46 years. Although double the size of the previous temple it is still considered part of the second temple. The Third Temple refers to the temple that at some future date is thought by Jewish and Christian fundamentalists is to be constructed where the Moslem Dome of the Rock mosque is now located.

Now the next big change-- Greek-derived beliefs and practices seep into the Judahist culture and religion. The Greek sees God like a world object that can be examined by the thinking observer, that there can be a theology. Where Judaism is based on following Yahweh's set of rules (the law), sacrifice what is valuable and Yahweh will return virtue, peace, prosperity as the scriptures say.

Christianity is a Greek form. Translating the Hebrew into Greek in about mid third century under Alexandrean patronage so by the beginning of CE a full set of scripture was available in Greek. Jewish authorities backed away and retreated to a Hebrew Text only. Pre 70CE there were many forms of Judahism.

4 Maccabees the point is made that actual, not abstract good behavior, actual control of passions, actual rejection of the flesh and weakness are primary and theses are obtained by faithfulness to the law. The Doctrine of the immortality of the Soul and individual Blood Sacrifice could act as an antidote for sin. The martyrs become "a ransom for the sin of our nation."

The first interaction of Hellenic and Judahist thought is with Philo Judaeus the other being the Apostle Paul. Philo writes a parallel text in which the temple is transformed from the sometimes residence of Yahweh into a cosmic representation of the unity of the one god that is TRUTH.

Until 1950 the 50 chapter Book of Jubilees was thought to be a Christian forgery by Jewish Scholars. The Book of Jubilees is a parallel text, excluded from the Hebrew Bible, widely used during the later second Temple times, the only full version in Ethiopia and that translated from a Greek version taken from a Hebrew original. Found in five of the eleven Qumran caves portions written in Hebrew and corresponding closely to the Ethopic version, has Moses going up the mountain to obtain the stone tablets.

The parallel Book of Jubilees rewrote the history of the Chosen People from Creation to Exodus. The issue of the origin of evil and the question considering the nature of Yahweh is addressed. The inventor of Jubilees cannot believe evil came into the world by an act of the Almighty, that Yahweh acts high-handed and callus or tempts the Chosen People into infidelity.

Followers of Yahweh Genesis- Kings do not require God to be all-powerful and all-good. By the time of Jubilees followers demand Yahweh be both God and Good. Angles become the agents of Yahweh and if angles then demons. Therefore God is not responsible for the evil that befalls man. Jubilees introduces Satan named Mastema, the general of the army of evil. Twenty-on evil angels are named. There is an evil monster named Leviathan who lives in the ocean and a male monster Behemoth who lives in an invisible desert located east of Edan. There is the Son of Man and the Elect One, the Rightous One. No Yahweh but, the "Lord of the Spirits" who created the distinction between light and darkness.

The Book of Similitudes in the Book of Enoch, another parallel Torah, remembering the future is not acknowledged in Jewish Canon. Prophecy in Hebrew scripture is about collective righteousness and collective guilt. Where as apocalypse is about individual redemption and individual sin. The Book of Daniel does weaken this belief of collective righteousness and guilt by referring to their resurrection after death and then appearing before the divine judge, sentenced to either everlasting shame and contempt or worthy of everlasting life.

Akenson repeats a story that is quietly known, that in the concentrations camps some of the older Jewish men would sneak off, gathering at night, away even from their own people to question if God had abandoned them because of collective guilt or collective sin.

The Aramaic fragment found in Qumran cave number four that manifests a much different conception of the Son of God from that found in the Hebrew scripture. He is called the son of God involving a single person, a future king, who will rule a world at the end of time. It is the miss-translation of the King James Bible though that gave the Son of God the name Messiah.

Barbara - I want to read your post slowly and carefully. Thanks once again for all your great research.

Maryal - My brother's name is David, and my niece is Rachel, so you're right about biblical names in my family! I also have an Isaac and another Abraham in the family.

The feeling about Zilpah being a lesbian came from this quote: "Zilpah's memory of Jacob's arrival is nothing like Rachel or Leah's, but then Zilpah had little use for men, whom she described as hairy, crude, and half human. Women needed men to make babies and to move heavy objects but otherwise she didn't understand their purpose, much loess appreciate their charms."

Thanks for the great information about Sarah. I too have no children - does this mean I'm going to conceive at 90?!!

Another part of the book that I thought was overblown was Dinah's three days of passion with Shalem. How old was she supposed to be? It just didn't seem possible that a woman so young would be so passionate. You know what they say about the difference between women and men's sexual peaks - with men, it's in their teens; with women it's much later. I don't know any woman that was that passionate in her teens.

For some reason I got the impression that Dinah was only 13 or something. Am I wrong about this?

I was also very surprised that Dinah had sex with Shalem so quickly. Wasn't this risky - if he didn't marry her, she'd be marked for life? Or was the sex itself almost like a marriage ceremony in itself? During the three days, Shalem says "Oh, little wife. Do not let me hurt you again." Is there any historical reality to the idea that by lying together, people then became man and wife?

I was shocked by what Simon and Levi did to Shalem. I did not see this coming. Were there hints of the depths to which Simon and Levi would sink earlier in the book? I completely missed them. I guess this passage should have clued me in: "[W]e avoided Simon and Levi who laughed at us and teased Tali and Issa, the twins." And this: "Simon and Levi wanted wealth and the power it would bring them. . . ."

However, are those hints enough to warn one of Simon and Levi's barbarity?

Why did they do this to Shalem? Was it the circumcision? Simply Shalem's act of taking Dinah's virginity?

Another question. Reuben was expected to get Jacob's "birthright" - I assume this means his property, and the blessing would go to Joseph.

First of all, what is the difference between inheriting property and receiving the blessing?

And why was the blessing to go to Joseph?

Finally, why did Isaac bless Jacob and not Esau?

(If you tell me to go read the Bible, I'll understand! But please answer anyway.)

BARBARA I do not think Zilpah was a lesbian. She showed no such inclinations. The fact that men are distasful to her is probably because she was asexual and could also have been traumatized as a child. SARAH: a girl of 13 or 14 can definitely be passionate and sexual. I was and married at 14 and it was a passionate marriage. I was sexualized very early but you would have to read a lot of pschiatric treatis' to understand why a rape victim did not hate men or sex and married at 14. Of course I knew nothing at that age about why any of it happened. I only knew I loved my husband for 24 years and was passionate but and this is a big but, I never have loved any other man even though I remarried.And that was for about 15 minutes. But I did not hate men because of my past. Nor find them ugly or disgusting.AND HEY Those are not the reasons a girl is a lesbian. The major reason is she is born with the genetic propensity and if her culture allows its expression she choses this type of sexuality openly and if not she would chose it secretly given the chance. I am glad we have that freedom developing more and more in the United States. Faith

Faith: I agree, I believe Zilphah was more asexual than a lesbian. When I read that same passage that sarah quoted, I had the feeling she just "didn't get it", that she mused what is the big deal about the male species?

I believe that Diamant's intent was to display a strong sense of sexuality between Dinah & her lover. Remember, the bible depicts this story as a rape! Diamant's purpose was to spin a calamitous,grievous tale into a romantic, passionate vision for us. This distressing horror of rape was recreated with a different slant. She had to describe their arousal and eager desire for one another to make this point.

drat-- I have given my book away. I wanted my daughters to read this fine novel. I'm going back to the library and get it so I can find the part, early on, that described Simon and Levi's hostility and churishness.

Sarah - I am delighted with your posts and your thoughtful questions.

Yes Faith-- you've said it all so well.

Sarah I am not certain but after researching especially in the book I've been quoting Surpassing Wonder the Invention of the Bible and the Talmuds it appears the early Bible Genesis - KIngs was about Yahweh Victory and that men are called to God not because they are necessarily good. IN fact God is not thought to be a good God only a powerful victorious God above all other Gods. We also have the tradition of marriage that expects the agreement of Dowery to take place before the coupling of man and woman and therefore, without the agreement Shalem was considered to be raping Dinah rather then the two sharing their attraction and passion for each other.

If you do read the Bible Sarah the story of this event is right there with no explanation-- it just happens.

Alf we are posting at the same time but need to comment great point about the passion and romance highlighted to show the brutality to Dinah and her choice as even greater.

Barbara, you asked what I thought was overworked. Only what I posted previously---Dinah's first sexual experience was just too, too much. Without discounting Faith's points (which I don't), the author was working too hard to convince. So, I didn't believe.

One thing I have become convinced of over these many decades is that women have a whole spectrum of sexual feelings. I have not expressed that very well. Considering only heterosexual women here, we have quite a number of "frigid", a majority of luke-warm, a lot of touchy-feelies, right on to the nympho. These things are built in at birth. I totally believe Faith when she speaks of 14 year old passion. I totally believe the author here, as well.

Back to this honor thing: there is a real life drama going on right here in this country today involving one of our young marines who has married an Arabian Princess from Bahrain. There is an article in the July 31 issue of People. In that article, an attorney with the International Human Rights Law Clinic says: "She has brought shame on her family. There may well be retribution."

This is the thing that is so difficult for American minds to interpret. What we do, is what WE DO. But in the Middle Eastern countries, as well as in other parts of the world, but most Especially in the Middle East, what a young girl does PUTS A STAIN OF SHAME AND DISHONOR upon her Entire Family. For her to do this is Unforgivable. Several years ago in Saudi Arabia a young princess was beheaded for just the same sort of thing.

Here, in Genesis, "The Beginning", we see what appears, as far as our history books are concerned, to be the first time this happened. Since that day, since those times, it has happened literally hundreds of thousands of times. The International Women's Conference is trying to convince the countries where this happens on a regular basis to pass laws against it. Mostly the male lawmakers cannot conceive of anyone having a problem with women being killed in "honor" murders. The men never get charged with Anything!

Marypage you got it. And in the case of that young marine it is causing an international incident. I pray they get out and rescued but you know the dishoner is such to that family she will not be safe.I have read a great deal of what happens to women in other parts of the world. Including the mideast, India, China, and Africa. We women in America, and Western Europe do not know a nth of what goes on and our newspapers, books and magazines are mostly not concerned with women in other countries. Our concept of when it is ok to get married too, is turned on its head where there is still a dowry system and there is in India. Girls of 7,8 or so are still married and if you think oh that is just in name only, not sexual, think again. They, little girls, are still sold as sex slaves and shipped to other countries. There was a scandal just last year,about an educated Indian woman taking a child off an airplane and hidding her because she had been sold as a bride to a man from some other Eastern country. It is sad but true that we are not very worldly in America. Faeth

On another topic - I have trouble visualizing the set up for births. There are bricks and there is straw. Does the pregnant woman stand on two bricks set apart with a pile of straw in the middle?

What is the meaning of the red cord Diamant refers to throughout the book - used as a sort of healing device.

Lovely paragraphs from the book, just after Dinah gives birth:

"Just as there is no warning for childbirth, there is no preparation for the sight of a first child. I studied his face, fingers, the folds in his boneless little legs, the whorls of his ears, the tiny nipples on his chest. I held my breath as he sighed, laughed when he yawned, wondered at his grasp on my thumb. I could not get my fill of looking."

"There should be a song for women to sing at this moment, or a prayer to recite. But perhaps there is none because there are no words strong enough to name that moment. Like every mother since the first mother, I was overcome and bereft, exalted and ravaged. I had crossed over from girlhood. I beheld myself as an infant in my mother's arms, and caught a glimpse of my own death. I wept without knowing whether I rejoiced or mourned. My mothers and their mothers were with me as I held my baby."

Beautifully put.

Didn't Diamant explain that the mother in labor was supported by the women, standing up? The straw would have been to absorb the blood and placental tissue, I assumed.

That was my impression.

Actually, birthing is supposed to be EASIER when you are crouching down than the way we do it.

Yes and I have seen the birthing chairs(in drawings) that were available in Roman times. They were in use in British Isle. for upperclass too in the middleages according to some books. It would be easier. One of my granddaughters stayed crouched in the shower with her hubby behind her holding her up until her midwife made her come out and 2 contractions after she delivered Jessica. I guess it was great. I think any thing is better than the late 30's to the middle 50's. It was barbaric. And it ws my birthing years too. Say maybe I would say that about any era that I was in during childbirth since it AINT FUN ....faeth

It certainly seems that gravity - i.e., standing up - would help with childbirth.

I was confused by Joseph when Dinah met up with him again at the end of the book. It almost seemed as if Diamant didn't know how to portray him. He seemed alternately sinister and untrustworthy, and warm and loving. I felt something similar with Dinah's son. Sometimes he treated Dinah as mother; others, he was distant. Diamant showed similar ambivalence with Rebecca - who cruelly banished Tabea - but who also ministered to the poorest of the poor.

I found this ambivalence annoying at times. Yes, people are complex - they are not uniquely good or evil. However, I felt Diamant had some confusion about how she wanted to portray these characters, and it came across.

This point harkens back to Levi and Simon too. I just don't think Diamant prepared us for the depths of evil to which they would sink.

If I had to give a final review for the book I'd say that it was thought provoking and well written in places, but that some of the scenes were overdone - especially love scenes - and that Diamant's ambivalence about her characters occasionally confused the reader.

How would you all review the book?

I guess I'd add that Diamant had a beautiful ability to describe the landscape - the vistas, the colors, smells, animals - that really transported me to the places she described. Her description of the walled city where she met Shalem was less vivid - I had trouble envisioning the contrast between the squalor she first encountered in the dark, dirty, dusty streets and the palace where Shalem and his family lived. On the other hand, I thought her description of the city where she ended up with Benia was quite good - I found myself picturing a squatter city in Hong Kong or something similar.

She also did a great job of sparking interest in learning more about the Bible and the stories from which she drew. That was another success.

Finally, getting back to the character ambivalence issue, I again felt the ambivalence with Re-nefer, Shalem's mother. On the one hand she did this terrible thing by taking Bar-Shalem away from Dinah, at least in part. On the other, she guarded Dinah's secret (her heritage, the murders committed by her brothers Simon and Levi) throughout her life. I found myself not sure how to feel about Re-nefer either.

I'd say this ambivalence and the bodice-ripper love scene language were the two key weaknesses of the book.

I do not view the personalities you describe as ambivalent at all. I find them very realistic. I find myself being one way in one situation and another way in another. There is usually an underlying reason for the differences.

For instance, Dinah's mother-in-law desperately wanted to have her son's child live. She took him from Dinah in order to give him what she considered to be the very best possible life, that of a Prince of Egypt. She never told the fact that Dinah's blood family murdered Dinah's son's father BECAUSE that fact made it REMOSE'S blood that did the killing, and that information would have not only prevented him from being a Prince of Egypt, but would have caused his death.

Likewise, Dinah's son would have been torn between love for his birth mother and a feeling of Superiority to her, which he could not help as he was brought up to feel that way.

Joseph WAS an extremely complex character, and the story in the Bible makes this point very clear. And he was in an extremely tenuous situation; one which was very dangerous as far as his life and the lives of those he loved were concerned. The fact that he forgave his brothers to the extent that he saw to it that they and their large extended families were fed during the 7 years of drought and famine shows how much better a person he was than they. I don't think I could have ever forgiven them.

Rebecca was actually being very Strong in banishing her other granddaughter. It was Dinah who hated her for it, because she knew how much becoming a Deborah meant to Tabea. But Tabea had already become a woman in what Rebecca viewed as pagan rites, and this meant she could never be a Deborah. Rebecca was enraged at Tabea's mother for disobeying her wishes in this regard, but nevertheless, it was too late to do anything about it, from Rebecca's point of view.

I see nothing weak in these characterizations. I see no confusion at all.

My review of the book is that it ranks among probably my top 100 lifetime favorites. I think it is an outstanding work.

Sarah, I noticed the ambivalence, as you called it, also, in several characters. Oddly, it didn't bother me as much as it signaled Daimant's efforts to honor biblical details when possible. I found her mix of honoring details and stretching into fiction, however, disconcerting. A mountain of a project, to be sure---I'll bet most writers would say, forget it, can't be done. Daimant's attempt goes well beyond adequate. A very moving, thought-proviking saga.

"Bodice-ripper" is exactly what I had been trying to say regarding the love scenes. The elements of Dinah's first "marriage" (age, etc.) would have been more believable if Daimant had employed her matter of factness that I so enjoyed in other sections of the book. I wonder if any one else experiences what I often do---I'll be reading along, enjoying the "story" when, behind the scenes, my brain begins rolling its eyes and saying "oh, brother," regarding believability.

You all amaze me at your interperation of this book, I have enjoyed every post. The book and your thoughts were nothing like I had expected. It has been my loss for not reading the book with you.

Ginger

Ginger so glad you popped in - are you reading the book? We still find things to discuss so join us why don't you?

With all that "Oh brother" reaction I keep thinking we've missed something Betty. Usually when there is unbelievable behavior, that is a clue for me that the obvious story is only the icing to the real story. The novel as well as, the Bible story that is used to keystone the tale is all so obvious-- too obvious that it smacks of a thinly vailed cover.

All I can see is the honor and dignaty of woman in the RED TENT and the flow of the story seems to be; The woman respecting themsleves, honoring their Gods, having varied relationships with the men, birthing their babies, Rebecca forshadowing issues of casting out someone who through no fault of her own is dishonored - the slaughter and Dinah chooses to abandon her family, her home (as Bilhah does), later Dinah abandons her place in an egyption household (taking to the garden) loses her child, aligns herself with a few other woman and a gentle man in a foreign land, practices and is saught after for her work. Returns briefly to connect the dots so to speak recognizing the children and grandchildren of her brothers and cousins but lives to her death apart in her adopted land.

I feel like there is something there that I am not seeing.

Barbara, I did not get the book, but am gleaning a lot from your post along with the others and am enjoying observing how good the book is. Ginger

I'm so glad that you've joined us Ginger. This was truly a wonderful book and Barb did an admirable job with her synopsis. I don't think you've missed a thing Barbara. It is just as you've described- the honor and the dignity of these women in biblical times. No more, no less, I fear than what many of us have encountered in present days. The world remains with its malignant, vindictive masses being balanced with the benevolent, charitable nature of the populace.

A question posed that I've thought a great deal about while reading and passing on this book is:What word best describes the sum of Dinah's life? Any comments?

I can always judge how much I've enjoyed a read by whether or not I want to pass it on and to whom. After borrowing this from the library I purchased it on B&N for both of my daughters. (Then again I also bought them The Womens Room.)

integral

Hi Ginger--good to see you. It's not too late to read the book. Clearly, we are not agreed on the strengths and weaknesses of the novel, and there are many points of view. Seems to me that the one thing we agree on is that this book is pretty good for a number of reasons. But we all see it differently.

Re: the sex scenes. I find them not altogether convincing, but only because they seem to me to be there because Diamant wants to explore the possibility that Dinah loved Shechem. However, she has set herself a difficult task because of the restrictions on the story in Genesis. It is clear there that whatever happened between Dinah and Shechem happened quickly. Thus Diamant has very little time to work with. I don't find Dinah's passion unbelieveable at all, but I think it would have made more sense had there been a larger time frame.

Diamant is best at creating a time and place and looking at women's lives and what they might have been. She is not as strong on character development. The first person narrator limits also. Because Dinah TELLS the story, there is much information we cannot know unless Dinah knows it. Dinah is confused about her mother-in-law's actions and thus we are confused. A third person narrator would have given us more of the insides of other characters.

Maryal

Alf dear how can we sum up a life in a "word"? I have been sitting her thinking about that so long I was disconnected. Now I still can't do it. But the book is one of my all time favorites. I believe Ms. Diamant will be heard from again in the future. I have enjoyed other writers ( Joyce Carol Oats,) who writes penetrating psycological plots along wiht bodice riping love scenes and such a vast vocabulary I have to keep my dictionary handy, along with slang and curse words when appropriate. As with Diamant there are no gratuitous (sp) love scenes..just flowing beautifully with the story. I think Diamant was very careful in her plotting and to me, it was a really good book.FP

I too have recommended the book to several people, so I truly liked it.

It looks as if this is Diamant's first novel. That makes sense: she has the non-fiction writer's gift for describing places and events - but hasn't yet grown into writing love scenes. I warned the friends I recommended the book to to overlook these excesses.

Why did Diamant turn what I understand from some of you to have been a rape by Shalem of Dinah into a passionate love story? Is she drawing on a conflicting interpretation that already existed - or is she the first to tell the story in a new way? What would drive a writer to recharacterize a rape as a love scene? I find that very odd.

I suspect that those of you who weren't bothered by what I saw as ambivalence are more steeped in these Bible stories than I. With my (admitted) ignorance, I read the book just like every novel, and had to review it from that perspective.

I still liked the book! It certainly made me want to learn more . . . .

Sarah, I have read no version of the Bible that says "rape". It does say that when Prince Shechem saw Dinah, he took her and lay with her and violated her. Well, that sure sounds like rape. But wait; is it rape? The Bible also says the Prince's soul was strongly attracted to Dinah and he loved her and spoke kindly to her. His father, the King, went to Jacob and asked Jacob to give Dinah to Prince Shechem "as a wife."

The rest is as told in The Red Tent. The king offered all of the Israelites a permanent home. He offered intermarriage between both peoples. He offered whatever dowry and gift they might require of him. Then the brothers declared that they would accept all of these things on condition that every male be circumcised. So every male was circumcised, and the brothers broke their covenant with those people and killed all of the males, stole all of their wealth, and made slaves of the females.

I have a Strong sense, in reading the account in the Bible, of the same thing our author obviously believes, i.e., it Cannot have been "rape." It just does not add up to rape. Have you Ever heard of any rapist committing this heinous act and then going to the father and asking for the woman's hand in marriage? He was wanting Dinah to be the Mother of his Children.

This has been an excellent discussion. You leaders have done a magnificent job!! I read the book and consider it one of the best books I have read for a while. I have recommended it to friends and when my church circle meets again in September, I will recommend it to them. Thanks to all who have posted here--I do feel a bit intimidated at times--you all are quite eloquent with words.

I think this word rape has been used only because the rule of law or rule of tradition was not followed. It is easy to see the typical example of behavior that has those justifying their actions by blowing out of preportion the guilt of their advarsaries. Knowing now that Genesis - Kings is about Yahweh winning over other Gods, then Jacob's people must win regardless of method and regardless of who is sacrificed in the process.

This is where I think Diamant is making her point that woman were sacrificed or rather their honor, loves, Gods, place, needs on and on were sacrificed in order for the worship to Yahweh to be victorious. Those called by God to further His work are not necessarily good they are simply called and can obey or not and we have also learned that Yahweh was not thought of as a 'good' God, only a 'powerful' God.

Esentially Dinah is isolated and surrounded by a very few close loved ones rather than being a part of the larger social action-- isolated from those practices that brought honor and glory to her womanhood, isolated from her family as we today isolate those that disagree with the prevalent therefore, winning thought.

Despots have isolated those that worship differently for centuries and possibly Genesis is the first stories that gave this behavior creedence in the name of God. It is our sensebilities that were given air to after 70 CE that allows us to judge the behavior of Jacob's sons in a way that we feel this horror. The concept of power being so important is with us to this day. Coming from a democratic mind set as we do it is hard to imagine power at all cost. Of course that power at all cost is what today is in the way for most woman to have equality, honor and respect without the practice and fear of betrayal.

this is a woman's story and I think that Diamant is making a statement about woman in all of her aspects. We know how few woman give birth any longer with the medical confidence supporting the concept of mid-wives and now that herbs are being re-learned for their use they are being discounted by the male dominated western medical associations etc. etc.

Maryal: Interesting post! hmm, where to begin.. The strongest character development came right at the beginning, did it not? She spent the first few chapters skillfully describing ALL of the main characters. After that--- downhill it went with characteriztions. Do you think that that was to focus the major attention on Dinah, solely? I kind of liked the first person narrator, lending an air of an outsider describing what is happening. Drat! I do wish I had my book. It seems she "narrated" the final words as if she was sitting with us. Didn't she thank us for walking with her? I've forgotten how that was worded. As far as the mother in law, didn't Dinah call her a savior and a jailer? I loved That!!
Faith: Let's try it! Okay forget the one word, how about one sentence to describe Dinah's life in its totality?
Sarah: Bravo. What better tribute can you give to a novelist than what you've just said? You read it as a novel & reviewed it from that prospective. Aha, that is what she was striving for, I believe. Without belabouring a point any further (as I often do) I also felt that Diamant took this ghastly point of rape to show the flip side of it-- love!
May: Do not ever feel like that! Some are more eloquent than others, but we are all here for the sole purpose of enjoying books and each other. You must speak to us in any way that you wish. (I'll cheat and tell you that there are a few teachers here who probably cringe at my sentence structures but oh well--- they love me anyway. So happy that you enjoyed the book.<hr>
Barbara: Our resident researcher, what a wonderful job you've done with all of this information that you have offered . I, for one learned a great deal from your posts. I love it when I can read, enjoy and Learn! <hr>
I know that I suffer from CRS, but have we mentioned before (I'm cheating and don't want to re-read 439 posts) that Dinah (AHATI) means little sister? I found that in my notes I kept.