---Red and the Black, The ~ Stendhal ~ Great Books Export

In December of 1827, a French newspaper published the story of a young man who attempted the murder of a married woman. The article inspired Marie-Henri Beyle, [Stendhal was just one of his many pen names], to write what was to become "one of the greatest psychological novels of all time."

Stendhal set his story between 1827-30, but he treated it as historical fiction. There is also more than a little biographical resemblance between his protagonist Julien Sorel and Stendhal. His contemporaries did not fully appreciate his stark realism during the Romantic period in which they lived.

This is the story of a young man's attempt to rise above his low birth through hard work, talent and not a little deception in his quest for power and wealth. Stendhal uses his flawed hero to satirize French society and the Church, foretelling the radical change that would remove both of these powerful forces from power.

Relevant Links: Electronic translation by Charles Tergie - in English // Electronic text - in FRENCH // Electronic translation by C. Scott Moncrieff - in English // Biographical Information // Timeline - Napoleonic Era 1804-1870 // Stendhal's French and English Contemporaries // Prosper Merimée and others on Stendhal // The Doubs River - photo // Origins of the French Revolution // Interpretations of the title, The Red and the Black

Discussion Leader: Joan Pearson

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It seems we've been waiting quite a while for opening day. It's great that the selection of Stendhal's novel has attracted so many of you to this discussion, ~~old~~ former participants and new. You must know by now that you are all very WELCOME here.
If you are brand new, I'm going reveal our secret and steer you to our Discussion Guidelines, which say in essence that we are used to - and expect the greatest respect from one another, even if, especially if we disagree with something someone has expressed. That's the whole secret of our enjoyable discussions here.
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There are so many things to say, to ask - I must try to curb bottled up enthusiasm and wait for you all to get here - and start from the beginning.

Are you getting a feeling for mid-nineteenth century France yet? Quite different from the English novels of the same period we've been reading, but the dying out of the aristocracy and the rise of the middle class strike a similar note, don't you think?

Let's begin with the "pretty" little village of Verrières which Stendhal describes. Would you choose to live here?

Bonjour à vous aussi Joan.

In a novel I always try to visualize where the action takes place and HERE is a fine picture of the Doubs river cutting through the hills of the Jura mountains and at a distance we can see a village and across the river there is a larger town. That river originating in Switzerland looks so small compared with the huge rivers we have here, but they are important for the local industry.

If I had been born in a village like Verrière, I would/could live there, but I was born in Montreal. I moved to a small town after I was married and lived there for 17 years. Now though when I go back for a visit I know I could'nt live there anymore.

I am using the Penguin, translated by Catherine Slater.

Eloise, thank you for the beautiful picture of the village. I am reminded of the small town of Verrieres. The village looks so serene and quiet. Our village in The Red and the Black is noisy because of the pounding of the nails in the factory. This noise is heard far and wide destroying the peace of the town. The sawmill and the fabric manufacturing seem to be very important to the survival of the town. My sister lived in a small North Carolina town. The factory was very important to the people living there. People depended on the factory for their survival. There was a certain pride in working at the factory.

"You have scarcely set foot in the town before you are deafened by the din from a noisy and fearful-looking machine."

I too was struck by the relationship between the people of the town and their noisy industry and that of small towns here not so long ago. I also grew up in a very small town and moved to cities until I retired (sort of), when we moved back to the area I grew up in. Many small towns in the Southeastern U.S. (and elsewhere I expect) we willing to put up with sounds and smells from local industry that city dwellers might not have been. We are fortunate now that laws and regulations require means of "dampening" the offense to the senses of many industrial plants. In the past, one often had to put up with them to live in an economically viable area.

To me, what would have made it most difficult to live in Julien's village was the rigidity of social classes and the role of public opinion and a state religion in defining what was acceptable and what was not. Fortunately that sort of thing, which still present, is not longer so important.

Diana

Diana

I feel the same way. Because nothing is a secret in a small town it is like living in a cage. Every decision you make whether about money, love or business is discussed by the whole town. Having people talk about your life like it is an ongoing public soap opera can make a person feel smothered.

I would love someone to help this Irish American with the proper pronunciation of Verrieres. Thanks. I'm using the Norton Critical Edition. It's very helpful so far with supplemental information. I'm so interseted in this book ,and hope to keep up. AMICAH

I agree with Hats and Diana. The "pretty" little town can be described as a "cage" because of the social restrictions. Julien has strong feelings about the social classes and the explicit and implicit restrictions that they impose upon him. He has to pretend to be someone he is not and must hold his tongue to keep his real feelings from escaping. Madame de Renal seems to feel restricted too, but I can’t be sure yet because we don’t have quite enough information about her.

I would not want to live in the Verrieres of the book, but it could be quite lovely to live there now. With the advent of modern transportation, it is probably accessible to much more than it was in the early 1830’s. Moreover, with the internet and delivery services, most things are available to many people in small communities now. I live in a small town now and I find the only thing I really miss from the big city is the museums.

I found the first couple of chapters of this book to be tough going, getting the names and the political setting straight in my mind. The tone of his novel is unique, at least in my reading experience, but as I mentioned, this is my first French novel. I am glad we will be reading this together because I know I am going to learn a lot!

The question for Chapters one and two are really related. Re:Cages and walls.

A cage is a cage because you are walled in. In the town of V. Stendhal writes:"In order to win the public esteem of V.., it is essential that, though you should build as many walls as you can, you should not adopt some plan imported from Italy."

The small world that is V. has "dispensers of public opinion". They undoubtedly continously make sure that the walls of the cage are of a certain type and nothing new infilitrates into the town unless of course it is to make them richer.

Judy

This attractive town’s tranquility is destroyed by the hammer blows of the mayor’s nail factory. The girls working in the factory are being condemned to life-long hearing impairments.

Stendhal describes Verrières from the point of view of a tourist from Paris. He (speaking as a “traveller”) appreciates the picturesque setting but dislikes the social constraints that are part of life in a small town.

I don't think Stendhal had ever visited the USA so it’s interesting that he compared the “tyranny of public opinion” there with that of the small towns in France. Did he not find that “tyranny” in any of the countries he had actually visited? Is it possible that he was pandering to anti-American sentiments in 19th century France?

The tyrany of public opinion can be daunting for a newcomer who is coming to stay.

Whoops! I thought Monday was the first. I'll get started reading right away. Where does the time go?

AMICAH,

Stendhal might have named his fictional small town, Verrières, with the intention to compare it, comically, to the rhyming word, derrière.

Just a guess.

Amicah, for English speakers the "r" is difficult to pronounce because you don't have that sound in English.

The tyranny of public opinion can be daunting for a newcomer who is coming to stay permanently in a small town where people want to know about everything in you life and as I was not used to gossip I wanted to keep my life private, so folks found me, shall we say distant.

5 years ago I was in a small town in that area in France near Grenoble. I can understand why S describes Verriere as one of the prettiest towns in France. A narrow main street, small houses with shops where housewives go every morning to buy bread in a bakery shop, meat at the butcher shop, greens at another shop and of course, wine at the wine store. It is an experience that you never forget. At each stop the housewife stops to chat with the owner or with other housewives about family, about the stranger in town and she herself will talk about her own family etc.

That's okay, Mrs. Sherlock - we started a day early because today is the first of the month. In the coming weeks we will begin the chapters for the week on Mondays.

LauraD mentioned that she finds the opening chapters tough-going, getting the political and social situations straight. That's why we are taking our time this week to work on this - before we get much deeper into Julien's story.

Hats, I think you will find Catherine Slater's translation quite accessible - she has a light engaging touch. I considered her translation but settling on the Norton Critical edition. Like AMICAH I find the detailed footnotes helpful and promise to share them with you. He addresses each of those quotes that you see at the beginning of the chapters. He identifies the source - and what's funny, dismisses a number of them as "piffle"- saying that they were written by Stendhal himself!

Éloïse - thank you so much for the lovely picture of the Doubs River (pronounced Dou) cutting through the hills. From here it looks quite tranquil - but as you say, the Doubs is important to local industry, and so the town is anything but tranquil when you get up close.

AMICAH asks for some pronunciation help - I'll give it a try, but keep in mind I was a French teacher, but not a native speaker - and we all know there's a difference!

Comments from real French speakers greatly appreciated here.
You don't usually pronounce an "s" at the end of a word - except if followed by a vowel -

mes amis (my friends) sounds like mays ah me

Verrières sounds like derrière - (very funny, Road King) - ver yehr (two syllables)

Back in a few minutes - your posts are wonderful!

Éloïse - you make small town life in a French town sound quite attractive. I feel as if it would be a nice place to visit, but not sure how I'd cope with the "tyranny" and the gossip.

I can't quite decide whether Stendhal writes of the "pretty town" in a sarcastic way - or if he is remembering how it was before industry destroyed it. Road King - do you get the feeling that the narrator, the visitor from Paris, has been to Verrières before? I don't know where I got the impression that he has been here before.

How can this town be called "pretty" - both Hats and Diana were struck by the noise, - "the din from a noisy and fearful-looking machine." Not only the noise, but the smell. Hats points out that the industry is important to the people who live there...for their survival. But the visitor from Paris wouldn't appreciate it, would he?

But we are talking about actually living in the town, not just visiting. None of us would find the rigidity of the social system - and the role of public opinion bearable - but that's what it was like during this period in Verrières. Judy interestingly groups the "cage" with the "walls" the mayor is erecting around the town. Why are these walls so important to him? Is their purpose to keep people in - or out? or something else? LauraD - I see Madame Rênal in a cage already - though she might not know it yet!

Road King - Robert Adams has a footnote in the Norton Critical edition referring to Stendhal's comments on the "tyranny" in small towns of the USA - you were spot on, I think -

"For Stendhal, as for many Europeans, America represented a shopkeeper's civilization, the last word in mean and petty values. His opinions of the New World were reinforced by perusal of Mrs. Fanny Trollope's Domestic Manners of the Americans (1832), a translation of which he had read - and annotated."

Joan,

It didn't occur to me that Stendhal was being sarcastic in describing Verrieres as "the most attractive in the Franche-Comte. I took him at his word. However, recalling one of your earlier posts in the pre-discussion, you suggested that I might have missed his humor when I first read this book at age 19. You were right! I don't think I fully appreciated his use of sarcasm and irony until re-reading TRatB as an old man.

I think I understand the feeling you have that the narrator is on a return visit to Verrières. Perhaps he escaped from the "cage" when he was young and has returned, in middle-age, curious to see if the town is as stifling as he remembered it.

I take the adjective, whether "pretty" or "attractive" literally, but I mostly always take everything literally so we can't trust me. The village sounds picuresque to me, a lovely place to read about but I wouldn't want to live there.

I'll return with more to say when I retrieve my book which I left at work last week. Ooops.

I've never read this book before so I have no teenage memories of it, but so far it is more the sort of story I would have enjoyed more at that age than this one. But it's too soon to draw that conclusion.

Maryal

When Renal walls in land I thought it meant that he was attempting to buy up land and walling it in to increase his importance -- he didn't require more land for his business.

I think Stendhal definitely was writing of the pretty town in a sarcastic way. I found the narrator to be bitterly heavily sarcastic and cynical frequently. I looked forward to the story he would tell because something apparently was bothering our narrator very much. It's like he has a closeness and sensitivity to the town - like he had lived there and was hurt - probably by "the tyranny of public opinion."

Book One begins with the quote by Danton: "Truth, the bitter truth." That sets the tone, I think.

The novel begins with a lovely pastoral picture of the town sheltered by mountains and with the lovely river flowing by. (What a beautiful view of the Doubs, Eloise!.) You can see how a sensitive person in Verrieres might wish to escape to the mountains and look down at the river for hours. The scene suddenly shifts to the sound of the nail hammers - not just a loud noise but a stunning "din of a strident machine of terrifying aspect" that "deafens everybody." Startling vision of the place on the very first page.

Stendhal writes wonderfully vivid descriptions of his characters, and we are meant to dislike a number of them starting with the Mayor, M. de Renal, the first person we see. He has "a certain air of self-satisfaction and self-complacency mingled with an almost indefinable narrowness and lack of inspiration." One dislikes him immediately. Old Sorel, Julien's father, understands that the mayor is impatient, parsimonious, and has a "mania for landed ownership."

Of course, Old Sorel would know.

Bon matin, mes amis!

We're just back from viewing the cherry blossoms at the Tidal Basin in DC for the 38th year running now - and happy to report that they have never looked so lush and beautiful. The sunrise made it more magical than ever. Bruce says it's because daylight saving time was moved earlier - we've never been there to see the sunrise before.

Here's a recurring question - Road King writes of his new-found appreciation for Stendhal's irony - as an "old man." How old is Stendhal when he writes this novel - can you do the math? And when is this story set? The title "A Chronicle of 1830" - but what year does this story begin in Verrières when Julien is a young lad just starting out?

I can't put my finger on the passage which makes me feel the narrator has been here before. Can the narrator be Stendhal himself, looking back at the young Stendhal (Julien) - reliving the choices he's made when a young man?

Marni - You not only feel the narrator is being sarcastic, but that he is bitterly cynical as if he's lived here before and has been hurt. Maybe he will relive this hurt though Julien's story.

You quote Danton (footnote tells that he was a revolutionary, guillotined in 1794 - one of Stendhal's heroes?), "Truth, bitter truth." Could this signify Stendhal's intent to examine his past - and face up to his own culpability - truthfully - in what transpired back then?

If it is Stendhal's intent to tell the truth of what happened years ago, he wastes no time putting down the Mayor, as Marni tells it...demonstrating his "mania for landed ownership."

Kidsal - so the Mayor is walling in his own land - as well as the four- foot containing wall surrounding the public terrace at Loyalty Square?

"In the Franche-Comté, the more walls, the more one is entitled to the neighbors' respect." Is he trying to buy the neighbors respect then? "To stand well in Verrières, the essential thing is to build plenty of walls."

Isn't it Rênal's business that provides him with the necessary funds to buy and maintain his luxurious home, servants, and to purchase the land he is walling in? When then is he ashamed of his business ín 1815? What happened in Verrières in 1815?

Should we be examining the social classes in Verrières at this time - from the top to the bottom? Is the Mayor part of the aristocracy? Who is higher? Why is the mayor ashamed of his business dealings?

Nice to see everyone up and running -

Eloise - I just loved the link to the Doubs. Somehow it is much as I pictured it in my mind except for the conifers - for some reason I was thinking poplars. Thanks!

Marni - of course Old Sorel would know - it takes one to know one.

In his own way, Sorel is just as money grubbing as M de Renal but unlike the Mayor he does not covet social position. They are both shrewd businessmen - both know the value of 'yielding a return' as Renal puts it 'like the useful walnut it yields a return'

Stendhal's cynicism is very evident then as the narrator goes on: ... YIELD A RETURN. This phrase alone represents the mental life of three quarters of the townspeople. 'Yielding a return' decides everything in this little town which at first seemed so attractive to you

S evidently wants the reader to become aware of the mercenary nature of the populace in general and he hammers the point home with:

It is true they talk, even to excess, of how beautiful their town is; they make a great to-do over it. But the reason is simply that the scenery attracts various outsiders, whose money enriches the hotel keepers and thus, through the tax-collecting machinery, yields a return to the town

As for the tyranny of public opinion: although the comparison is between France's small towns with that in United States Stendhal is in fact stating a universal truth as all communities have their own peculiar manner of torment through public opinion. The smaller the community the more intense and direct is the torment.

What happened in 1815 - well, for starters Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo so there was major change affecting the entire country as the new regime took its place. Presumably this enabled M. de Renal to move up in the world and like many he would then want to conceal his origins.

One approach to reading this novel is to adopt the narrator's point of view but I'm trying to resist being manipulated by Stendhal. I empathize with these fictitious persons and, in general, I like people too much to share Stendhal's cynicism.

Deems wrote that she's not to be trusted (as a participant in this discussion) because she tends to take everything literally. Good for you, Deems! I look forward to your comments from the perspective of one who will not always be looking for hidden meanings.

The narrator tells us that "bringing in profit" is the consideration that decides everything in Verrieres. The mayor exemplifies this "mercenary nature," as Gum put it.

Do we detect that the mayor is cheating the public for personal profit? In Chpt. 2 we find that M. Appert from Paris may be checking up on the mayor while examining the Verrières public facilities. Madame de Rénal says to her husband innocently, "What harm can [he] do you, since you administer the poor fund with the utmost scrupulous honesty?" Hah!

It seems "the curé" has complained about the mayor.

A couple of you made good points about the differences between living in a town like Julien's at the time of the novel and now. When I moved back to my small town 30 years after leaving it, I was struck by how differences had shrunk between villages and cities. But I too miss the museums, concerts, and the like more easily available in or near a huge city (NYC, in my case).

In reading further into our novel, I also thought, though, about the closeness of the community Julien grew up in, and how that is easily missed in our time when we move much more often. The idea of shopping in small shops for food, etc., with the proprietors knowing you and your family is attractive. Even if it likely is more attractive in a romantic than a practical sense!

Diana

Eloise- Someone mentioned you posted a link to the Doubs--I can't find it. Could you possibly re-link it? thanks

Meribeth, HERE it the link.

Gumtree, yes the revolution made a lot of changes, but in the mind of the people, aristocracy was still in their behavior. It was better to be titled nobility than to be an industrialist and you were higher up than being a carpenter or a businessman. Money was a measuring stick and M de Renal, by building his walls around his property was flaunting his wealth I am sure. What did you think of the tree cutting episode that demonstrated the 'yealding a return' concept?

I feel that the importance of building walls comes from centuries past when they were needed for protection around a castle and M de Renal wished his mansion to be, or to look like a castle. It is the same today, the size of the house and grounds attests to the wealth of their owner.

Laura-- Oh my word, I was born and raised in a “cage.” Even though I never thought of it as such and it wasn’t in the 1800s. If I had lived then, I would be dismissed and punished as a “willful” child. I never felt confined, or enclosed and agree with Eloise’s post #14 where she described a small, distinct community. I don’t think that there was “tyranny” or anything dictatorial in our small community, in upstate New York. Gossip, oh my yes- plenty of that- but no tyranny! I would have loved to roam through the hillside in Verrieres, climbing walls along the Loyalty Walkway and chattering with the priest, the Director of the pauper’s bureau, the Mayor and whom ever else said good morning. I’d chug merrily along in cadence with the din of the Mayor’s nail factory.
Why did they need a Paupers Bureau at that time and what exactly did he do?

Like Marni said Stendhal does a great job in introducing us to the Mayor, M. Renal. What a pompous, haughty prig he is, featuring himself as a man with great business acumen. Ha, I laughed when Juliens tough, old, stubborn father got the best of him.

It's almost hard to imagine the tremendous upheavals that Stendhal lived through in France and the resulting changes to the structure of society. The revolution beginning in 1789 turned their world upside down; many of the aristocracy and church were killed off; titles were erased for awhile; they went to war with the world; gigantic numbers of the male population were killed in the Napoleonic wars. Then with the war losses of Napoleon, the French must have felt they lost their respect and position in the world. Then counter-revolutions occurred. Various regimes came and went. What a mess.

And meanwhile, the industrial revolution was going on changing civilization in another way.

Is it because the Mayor was an Industrialist, at this point, that he was ashamed? Was it his mechanical nail making machines that diminished his "self-importance?" He is a pure definition of Aristocracy (at least in his mind) as he is privledged and considered of the upper class. So is the Madame de Renal. From what little I can ascertain of Valenod, he would like to be considered an aristocrat.

I feel that Julien's father definetly represents the bourgeoisie in these early chapters. He is commonplace, traditional and surely he is materialistic.

I dislike Mr. Sorel with a passion. He's visious, cruel and mean spirited. Hypocrite or not, young Julien is still his son.

I do not understand why the old priest is getting canned? Is is only because he allowed the Parisian to walk about? He doesn't appear to pose any threat.

I thought perhaps the reason to get rid of the old priest was that he made some of the others ashamed of what they did--as in Valenod's relationship with the pauper's fund. But I didn't go back and read it again to discern the reason more clearly. I agree with Alf that it isn't clear. Can someone else help us understand it better?

Does Julien's father represent the bourgeoisie or the peasantry? Or did they even have much of a "middle class" in France at that time? Diana

Madame de Renal was a titled heiress, an aristocrat who had received a solid convent education. As Alf said Renal considered himself an aristocrat, but he lacked the refinement that went with it.

The revolution upheaval lasted a long time and it was hard for aristocrats to come down from their pedestal, while the lower class could now rise above their low station in society. It was the beginning of Democracy.

I think you have it right Diane, Father Chelan was probably too good for them and he would have denounced the abuse of power he saw.

I read this book as a teen ager and saw it as Historical Fiction. Today I am more interested in the personalities and how they interact.

The Mayor is a pompous , self satisfied person who has no real feelings for his sons. It is not he who worries about their safety when they start to climb. He will hire a tutor so that "it will impress people".. "it is an expense necessary for keeping up our position". He thinks a tutor is more impressive than "Valenods two fine Norman horses."

Stendhal is clearly pointing out that this is a man of business, shallow in his feelings, as self centered as the Aristocrats who were beheaded in the revolution.

There is no way one can avoid Stendhals cynical and jaded view of this small town. His exacting description of the people and place make for realism in its most naked form. As he recognizes the beauty of the natural surroundings so does he recognize the failings of the humans who inhabit them.

Judy

Thanks for re-posting the link to the photo, Eloise. Maribeth, if you look in the header under "Relevant Links" you should see the link to the Doubs river photo any time you want to look at it. (Remember to pronounce it the "Dou" now.

)

Maryal - when I look at the photo I agree, the town does look pretty - from a distance. It's when you come close and here the noise, "the din" and smell the smells, you might change your mind. What's smelling I wonder? Could it be the chemicals used to produce the Mulhouse prints? This seems to be the town's major industry. The prints are pretty - I wonder whether the fancy Parisian ladies wore them. -

Mulhouse Prints

19th century textile industry in France

Road King, we're relying on your ability to resist being manipulated by Stendhal. He's very good at this - don't let him pull anything over on us. Do you like Rênal then? Do you feel he is getting unfair treatment from Stendhal? Has Andy been manipulated by Stendhal into thinking him "a pompous, haughty prig?" This would be one way to justify Julien's betrayal of his position, wouldn't it? He had it coming to him?

Hello all,

I read Middlemarch with this group, same time frame, and now onto France. Looking forward to a very erudite discussion which opens my mind. I am absorbing history like a cool drink in these books.

Stendhal's 'irony' hits you in the first chapter, we shall see how it sustains for 700 pages. I'm glad to be here after a two month trip to SE Asia, Thailand, Vietnam and Angkor Wat. SF is warm and lovely these days. I am reading the Moncrieff edition.

I'm sorry to have been so coy about whether I would join the discussion. I had a great deal of trouble trying to decide whether to try reading the book again, but Saturday I gave in, and bought a more readable translation than the one I had (I picked Moncrieff, but Raffel was a close second). Now I'm caught up on the reading. I think my reaction to the book will be quite different than it was 40 years ago; I'm certainly seeing a lot more this time around.

Stendahl is certainly wicked in his digs at everyone and everything. He also comes across as a townsman sneering a provincial ways.

"...I shall not be so barbarous as to inflict upon you the tedium and all the clever turns of a provincial dialogue."

M. Valenod "...was one of those coarse, brazen, noisy creatures who in the provinces are called fine men."

Of course in the process he is also making fun of the sophisticate sneering at the provincials.

Oh good, good, good! Bon, bon, bon! Bbcsana has returned from the other side of the world for two months! Good grief, what a vacation! And PatH is giving the book another go. Good for you! Good for us! We are fortunate to have both of you join us, Moncrieff in hand! We're only on the opening chapters - plenty of time to help us straighten out the class structure in Verrières. Where would you rather be - in a nice secure marriage like Mme. Rênal's - or one of the shopgirls down at the Mulhouse print factory?

I'm feeling sorry for Stendhal, Pat - for anyone who "is wicked in his digs at everyone and everything including his own family. Is there anyone in his life he holds dear? Perhaps this is impossible for such a cynic. And I feel sorry for him.

Hello there, Gum - good to see you here! We have been trying to place the story in time. Does the story open in 1830 or years before when Julien is a boy? You remind us that that Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo in 1815 brought about much change in the entire country when the new regime took its place. How long ago has it been? Is Mayor Rênal ashamed of his business connections any longer?

Remember the cry of the French Revolution? Liberté, égalité, fraternité, ou la mort! (Freedom, equality, brotherhood, or death!) Under Napoleon's regime, this is what the French people achieved and enjoyed. At Napoleon's fall, the Monarchy returned to France with Louis XVIII, who was then overthrown by Charles X. His reign reminded people too much of the old regime and they will rebel again in 1830.

It the lower clases became "mobile" after the Revolution and then when Napoleon fell, the old aristocracy rose again - or at least tried to.
As Eloise writes - better to be titled nobility than to be an industrialist. Money was a measuring stick." Does it matter where the money comes from now, post-Napoleon? I'm wondering at Rênal's beginnings. He holds land now, funded by his nail-making business- and he has married old money. Gum do you think he wants to conceal his origins - or his present business?
Marni - you feel he is "cheating for personal profit?" Oh dear, something else to hide! How does this man sleep at night!

Andy says "he (Rênal), is pure definition of Aristocracy (at least in his mind) as he is privledged and considered of the upper class." Marni, you are right, I think. Everything is in upheaval. Especially the lines that separate the classes. Old rules really don't apply anymore - though some are trying to hold on to the old ways.

And another big change - as you point out, Marni - the Industrial Revolution is changing the whole landscape. Look at Verrières...smell Verrières. Those chemicals fuel the revolution - and make the inhabitants no longer dependent peasants but rich and productive!

Diana asks - Does Julien's father represent the bourgeoisie or the peasantry? Or did they even have much of a "middle class" in France at that time? I have to ask - How do you all define or understand the term, "bourgeoisie"?

Andy answers your question - "Julien's father definitely represents the bourgeoisie in these early chapters. He is commonplace, traditional and surely he is materialistic." Do you all agree? And do you all dislike him as strongly as Andy does - "vicious, cruel and mean spirited?"

Judy - "There is no way one can avoid Stendhal's cynical and jaded view of this small town." To think our Julien is a product of this environment, schooled by the virtuous old Abbé Chélan - More tomorrow, stay tuned!

I agree with the author and the old Surgeon-Major about pollarded trees. You repeatedly prune them back so the ends of the branches are thick blobs like this:

Pollarded Plane Tree

A cluster of short branches then grows out of each blob, producing a thick, compact bunch of leaves.

Gad, Pat H, I hadn't pictured the trees looking like that at all. Yuck! The mayor said he wanted them trimmed that way to provide shade. Doesn't look like there is much shade offered. Thanks for the picture.

I had thought the mayor was originally bourgeoisie because he was a manufacturer. He still seems bourgeoisie, but I believe he may now be officially an aristocrat because we learn on page 2 that he is "a Knight of several Orders." Being knighted would make one an aristocrat, non??? However, he is called Monsieur, not "Sir" or whatever the aristocratic parallel would have been in France at that time.

We learn on page 3 his family "is said to be Spanish and ancient."

I thought Old Sorel was originally a peasant. On page 3 the narrator says "that tough, stubborn peasant, old Sorel." He has cleverly worked his way to wealth (he is rich) and owns and operates a sawmill. So, I suppose now he would be a member of the bourgeoisie? Or does one have to work in particular businesses to be bourgeoisie? Like white collar worker vs blue collar worker?

I'm going to look it up.....

Definition of Bourgeoisie: originally the name for the inhabitants of walled towns in medieval France; as artisans and craftsmen, the bourgeoisie occupied a socioeconomic position between the peasants and the landlords in the countryside. The term was extended to include the middle class of France and subsequently of other nations. The word bourgeois has also long been used to imply an outlook associated with materialism, narrowness, and lack of culture—these characteristics were early satirized by Molière and have continued to be a subject of literary analysis.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-bourgeoi.html

There are many definitions on the web and they all vary.

Joan, teasingly, writes that the group is relying on my ability to resist being manipulated by the author. She asks if I like the mayor, notwithstanding the contemptuous opinion Stendhal has of him.

My interest in the novel, like Judy Chernock’s, is primarily in the “personalities and how they interact”. I see M. de Rênal as a real person, not just a caricature of a pompous, self-serving, and small-minded bore. The mayor has his flaws, for sure, but may I suggest that we suspend judgement about just how bad a person he is until we’ve been introduced to the rest of the cast of characters.

I found a painted tile in an art gallery that caught my eye because of its relationship (sort of) to our book. I'd like to post a digital photo of it. Can anyone give me instructions on how to do that?

Upon reading Marni’s post #20, it occurred to me that The Red and the Black seems to be a book of contrasts. We have the town, pretty yet industrial; the townspeople, intimate yet intrusive; the classes of people, rich, poor, in between; and, of course, the title, read and black, the meaning of which we do not yet know. I am going to be on the lookout for contrasts while reading the book. I am speculating that the author uses them to make his points about society. Yes, he is manipulating us, the readers.

The Mulhouse print and textile information reminded me of my trip to Lyon, France, where I learned about the silk industry. The patterns are gorgeous! That is in contrast to the pollarded trees! Wow! Ugly!

In the link in post #41 we see truncated plane trees that apparently can be two hundred years old, but the plane trees I have seen on my frequent visits to France bordering long stretches of road were all like these HERE tall and graceful giving nice shade on roads. What struck me is that each plane tree is planted at equal distance from each other.

I can't believe that criticizing the cutting of plane trees was the only reason for sacking the priest, but reading that part carefully it seemed to me that some excuse was needed. Reading between the lines I think that Father Chelan and the Mayor were on opposite sides of the political arena.

Bonjour, mes amis!

You bring such goodies to the table this morning!

PatH - ouch, those poor pruned trees! I really didn't understand why the narrator was so put out at the sight of them! Nor could I understand why the Mayor thought they would provide shade! Thank you, Éloïse for the glorious picture of those "unpruned" trees - - It was my understanding that these trees if left to grow - DO provide magnificent shade. But twice a year the Mayor has them pruned - as in the picture Pat provided, believing they will bear magnificent new branches. I can't believe that in six months these pruned trees will provide shade, can you - like those in the picture Éloïse provided. It seems that the narrator is returning to Verrières and remembers them as they used to be.
,br> LauraD - I'm going to join your watch for the contrasts to see what points Stendhal is making on society. Do you think the pruned, restricted trees that once grew free and provided shade are metaphors for what is happening in society?

Road King, I would love to see your painted tile. There are three ways to display it here. Need some answers to these questions -

Do you store your photos on line? If yes, I can give you the code to show the tile here.

- If no to the first question, do you want to display a link to your photo? There's an attachment box below the box where you post - do you see it? You can put the link in the box. You just have to make sure it is not oversized. (See graphic guidelines below "attachment box."

Do you want the quickest, easiest way? Email me the photo and I'll put it up for you, resizing it if necessary.

Hope this helps...

How can we not like Monsieur de Rênal? He’s rich. He’s titled. He owns a fine house with lovely gardens. He’s the mayor – the mayor! – of one of the most attractive towns in the province. And he owns a nail factory. How cool is that? !!!

Not only do I like him, I can identify with him. I, too, married the most attractive girl in town.

I admit the mayor has character issues, though. He has not been gifted with humility. For example; Chapter 3 begins with a description of the curé Chélan, who has “an iron character and strength”. Then, a few pages on, we hear Madame de Rênal exclaiming to her husband “how quickly you make up your mind!” To which the mayor responds, “That is because I have a strong character, as the curé has had occasion to see.”

Road King - yes, of course we can suspend judgment of the mayor until we meet the rest of the cast. The Mayor - do you think he was elected to the office, by popular demand? We know we can't trust the bitter narrator - As PatH points out - Stendhal is not only making fun of the provincials - he's also making fun of Julien, who is sneering at the provincials. He's making sport of himself, isn't he?

Marni - thank you for researching the definition of the bourgeoisie for us!

"The bourgeoisie occupied a socioeconomic position between the peasants and the landlords in the countryside"

From the same link you provided -

"Subsequent to the Industrial Revolution, the class greatly expanded, and differences within it became more distinct, notably between the high bourgeois (industrialists and bankers) and the petty bourgeois (tradesmen and white-collar workers)."

So, it is clear now that old Sorel has worked his way upward - from peasantry to the bourgeoisie. And he's not going to let go of anything he has achieved. As Gum points out -"Sorel is just as money grubbing as M de Renal but unlike the Mayor he does not covet social position." He'll stay right where he is - happily.

With hesitation, I will admit the Mr. Mayor, hizzhonor, is a member of the aristocracy - (without the "SIR")... Not sure where to put Valenod yet, are you? He seems to have worked his way up to the through the poorhouse door. But all the way to the Aristocracy? I really don't understand that.

But today, let's see if we can figure out Fr. Chélan. Éloïse - You are reading between the lines to conclude that M. Rênal and Abbé Chélan are on opposite sides of the political arena.

Let's look at the position of the Church during this period. Is the Church not supporting the Monarchy at this time? Of course, even if it is - that doesn't mean that the virtuous priest goes along with the central administration. I like this priest. At first I felt as if he had been duped by Julien - thinking that he had a calling to the priesthood. Now I'm not so sure that he can't see through his outward show of piety.

Do you agree with Diana and Éloïse - he was probably too good for the town and he would have denounced the abuse of power he saw? Not only that - he let the examiner from Paris in to see the conditions in the poorhouse, the jail and the hospital. I think he has to go, though he thinks he is set for life - even if Road King and Rênal don't see him as a worthy man. Isn't Rênal just defending his actions to his pretty little wife? I was interested that she would even question him! Are pretty wives allowed to question their mates or just rich ones?

Personally, I prefer julien to his primitive father who beatrs him and calls him a beast. The book that was in Juliens hand when his father attacked him was th "Memorial of St. Helen". It was Juliens favorite book.

Memorial of St. Helen" was published in 1823. It was an account of Napoleon Bonaparte's last conversations while he was in exile on the island of St. Helena. Recorded by his confidant, Emmanuel, the book favors Napoleon and advocated a union of liberals with Bonapartists.

This is a side bar which gives insight into Juliens serious thought about the political situation in France and where his allegiance lies.

There is no way he could discuss these ideas with his illiterate father and brutish brothers. So Stendhal presents us with a young person who would like to grow wings and experience life.A person who is aware of things other than the reality of the saw mill and his immediate surroundings.

Judy

I just finished reading all the entries, so I feel "kind of" caught up. This is one book that I missed. What captured my interest at first is that Standel is considered the "Father of the Psychological Novel." So far there seems to be a particular focus upon the interior thoughts of the characters. Julian certainly sounds like a person of many unhappy and repressed thoughts, clearly a victim of being brought up in a family where there is a real absence of love and concern. I try to feel sorry for him but he seems so full of anger, not so much at individuals but their social status.

As always, I find reading the entries as much fun as the novel. It is a real ongoing conversation and sharing of points of view. I will be away next week but will continue reading and re-catch up on the discussions. Bern

Perhaps M. de Rénal bought his mayorship. It has been known to happen! And it certainly seems that he must be involved in something fishy with funds for the public facilities. Could the curé have uncovered something?

I liked the curé Chélan right away from his description. He has an iron constitution and an iron character. It appears he has been in the town for a very long time - 56 years - and is beloved. When he committed the act of letting M. Appert into the hospital, knowing he might lose his position, his eyes "shone with that sacred fire which betokens the delight of doing a fine but slightly dangerous act."

Ahah! Chélan is a man of spirit!

The curé says he has "no protector." Does that mean he has no patron within the church - an important bishop, perhaps, who can rush to his aid in political matters?

It seems the mayor and M. Valenod have the power to kick the curé out after 56 years. I wonder how it is that they and not the church can get rid of him?

The church in France had had powerful feudal privileges which it lost during the Revolution. Many churchmen were killed along with aristocrats. Wasn't atheism popular at that time? Here's something about the Revolution and the Church from Wikipedia:

Revolution and the Church

The revolution brought about a massive shifting of powers from the Roman Catholic Church to the state. Under the ancien régime, the Church had been the largest landowner in the country. Legislation enacted in 1790 abolished the Church's authority to levy a tax on crops known as the dîme, cancelled special privileges for the clergy, and confiscated Church property. To no small extent, the Assembly addressed the financial crisis by having the nation take over the property of the Church (while taking on the Church's expenses), through the law of 2 December 1789. In order to rapidly monetize such an enormous amount of property, the government introduced a new paper currency, assignats, backed by the confiscated church lands. Further legislation on 13 February 1790 abolished monastic vows. The Civil Constitution of the Clergy, passed on 12 July 1790 (although not signed by the King until 26 December 1790), turned the remaining clergy into employees of the State and required that they take an oath of loyalty to the constitution. The Civil Constitution of the Clergy also made the Catholic church an arm of the secular state.

In response to this legislation, the archbishop of Aix and the bishop of Clermont led a walkout of clergy from the National Constituent Assembly. The pope never accepted the new arrangement, and it led to a schism between those clergy who swore the required oath and accepted the new arrangement ("jurors" or "constitutional clergy") and the "non-jurors" or "refractory priests" who refused to do so. The ensuing years saw violent repression of the clergy, including the imprisonment and massacre of priests throughout France. The Concordat of 1801 between Napoleon and the Church ended the dechristianisation period and established the rules for a relationship between the Catholic Church and the French State that lasted until it was abrogated by the Third Republic via the separation of church and state on 11 December 1905."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

Marni, thanks for bringing up this quote on the French revolution. It helps to get the feeling of what people were going through at that time. Passing from a state of Monarchy to a Republic while at the same dealing with the powers of the church must have left many people stranded behind and in a turmoil.

Judgmental, that's me. I don't like the wily former peasant, old Sorel and I'm very wary of his son, our main character, Julien Sorel.

Perhaps Stendhal meant to be poking fun at himself as Joan P suggests, but there are a lot of daggers being thrown at his character. Everyone, it seems, is a target, even Julien. OK, I like Julien better than his Pop and his "brutish" brothers (as Judy S puts it), and he is a reader. But he's such a wimp. Sorry, but so he seems to me. And he has huge plans for himself, if he can just figure out where to play his cards. He wanted to be a soldier but now that Napoleon is OUT, he switches to the priesthood. I thought one was supposed to have a vocation for taking holy orders. Julien's vocation is his own advancement.

Maybe this book shouldn't be read by anyone under forty? As an adolescent, I probably would have identified with him. What adolescent doesn't like a "hero" with ambition? But that's just not what's going on here. Julien is as wily as his father despite being the family whipping boy. It looks as if he will do anything to "get ahead."

One more comment, although we don't seem to be discussing it yet. I like the question on Chap. 6 about the title. It's "Boredom" in English, but I wonder if in French it isn't "Ennui"? For me, ennui has always carried a lot more weight than our overused (at least by the young people I know) "boredom." When I think of "ennui," I think of a kind of listlessness, a restlessness, a wondering-if-anything-will-ever-turn-up sort of word. Perhaps with a touch of uneasiness thrown in.

If "Ennui" is the original title, then it fits this chapter where we discover two young and beautiful people nervously in each other's presence. Tinder for the fire.

But we'll wait until later in the week to discuss that chapter.

Maryal

Thanks, Judy, for telling us that "Memorial of St. Helen" was Napoleon's last thoughts. I hadn't equated "Helen" with "Helena". That makes much more sense given Julien's frame of mind.

In the examples I posted, Stendhal is not making fun of Julien, he is making fun of the narrator (presumably himself) who is making fun of the provincialism of the characters.

The kind of irony we are dealing with in this book depends on the reader correctly interpreting the tone of the author, including the exact choice of words. We are depending on translation, so can only hope we get the tone right.

Eloise, I hope you will set us straight if you see us misinterpreting.

Oh, look at this thing! - Road King sent this tile picture to share with you.

I just love it! The black grape (Pinot Noir), the red wine - even Julien's name! It reminds me that we had planned to keep a running list of the possible meanings behind the title - Le Rouge et le Noir. I received an email today from - I was going to call him a lurker, but hate the term. He is half way through the book and on his way out of the country right now - maybe he'll join us later. He spoke of an meaning for black. I'm going to have to get those red and black notes from our pre-discussion and put them in the heading - in the morning. Don't you love the tile though? I think I have to order one for myself, Road King!

Look! Bern has joined us - but gone again next week? Well, we'll take you as often as we can get you - you add much to these discussions. "Stendhal - the Father of the Psychological novel - with a focus on the interior thoughts of characters." I think you've put your finger on what we've been trying to express. We seem to be getting the interior thoughts of the characters through the eyes of one character - this visitor/returnee from Paris. We do need to remember these are the inner thoughts of one individual. Let's watch to see if there is just this one narrator throughout. One narrator's views are bound to be flawed to some extent, as Road King points out.

And Pat H points out - the translator gets involved too - "tone" is important. It's difficult to get it right, for us to hear it as Stendhal intended, but important, I agree. Is the narrator smiling when he tells his story?

I'm sure he's making fun of the provincials - not as sure that he's including himself. Are we agreed that his protagonist, Julien, is himself, that he is writing this story to rewrite his own botched-up life to date?

Stendhal lost his mother at a young age - and more or less grew up in a vacuum, not getting along with anyone but that one mentor - Stendhal his grandfather, his mother's father, who introduced him to the world of books. Julien's only mentor was the old surgeon-general whom he worshipped because he fought with Napoleon. This is the man who taught him history - and Latin. Judy tells us the book Julien's father destroyed was published in 1823. Thanks Judy, that helps date the opening of this story - It probably is close to 1830 now.

The surgeon general has died, left Julien his books - and now Julien is truly alone, except for Abbé Chélan, who serves as his mentor, his sponsor, I guess, to get him into the seminary? Why hasn't he gone then? Why is he still in Verrières? Because Julien knows Latin, he gets the attention of M. Rênal, who wants him to tutor his children. Marni, I like M. Chélan too. I think he feels he's institutionalized in the town - and needs no protector. You bring us needed information on the position of the Church at this time. In France, he who wields the power owns land. After the Revolution, the church loses land and the taxes it charged on its holdings. What! Monastic vows abolished too!!!They became state employees? Napoleon ended this "dechristianization" of the Church - until Church and State were separated again in 1903.

So it is within the past 20 years that things have returned to what they were before - the Church separated from the state? I'm sure there are many who do not want to see this happen again. As Eloise says - "Passing from a state of Monarchy to a Republic while at the same dealing with the powers of the church must have left many people stranded behind and in a turmoil." Especially the men of the cloth.

Maryal, I don't see a religious calling in Julien either. Why has Julien made the decision to join the Church, rather than enlist in the army? Clearly that's where his heart is. You believe it is because Napoleon is out? Julien is a reader, yes, but his reading is so limited - the surgeon-general's old books. These few books have formed his character - which his father has no way of understanding.

I'm surprised that the Mayor wants to take on this low-born fellow as a tutor for his sons. I guess he feels a clerical robe makes a difference - and his command of Latin. It's all about appearances with him. Madame Rênal is certainly not impressed, but she has no say in the matter. She is STILL handsome - though 30. Doesn't this sound like something a very young person might think? Who is the narrator now - is it still the gentleman from Paris, or is it Julien?

There is only one translation that caught my eye which changed the meaning from the French version in Chapter 11 " that the official gardener's hand cuts deeper since the Vicar Maslon has contracted the habit of enriching himself from the profits of sheepshearing.

In the French version Stendhal writes: that official gardener's hand cuts deeper since M. the Vicar Maslon has contracted the habit of enriching himself from the profits of cuttings."

I don't know why "tonte" is translated into "sheep shearing". I though that sheep shearing was cutting wool off a sheep not cutting branches from trees.

I don't usually notice one mistranslated words like this one when it doesn't alter the meaning of a paragraph.

I am reading only the French version right now and I wouldn't know about mistranslations unless someone asks about a sentence in a certain paragraph but if someone asks, I will certainly look it up and interpret it in my own words.

In Chapter 4, Old Sorel, exasperated at his idler of a son, struck Julien a violent blow that made him lose his balance on the beam above the saw. If he had fallen into the reciprocating saw blade, Julien might have been julienned!

Julien is described in this chapter to have “a slim and shapely figure (which) betokened suppleness rather than strength”. What a way to describe a young man! Is the narrator attracted to Julien?

We also learn that, “in the games on Sundays, on the public square, he was invariably beaten”. Well, I give Julien credit for at least competing in the games. Perhaps he wasn’t a “wimp”, at all. He could have benefited from instruction and mentoring in the manly arts but his father and brothers were only interested in brutalizing him.

"Julien might have been julienned"--that's awfully funny, Road King, I wish I could have thought of it.

Pere Sorel saves Julien from this by grabbing his hand and pulling him back up--impressive especially considering his age.

Julien is slight and pretty unfit compared to his brothers, not suited to life in the sawmill. He also has enough interest to learn to read, memorize Latin, etc. I can imagine his frantic need to escape from the life that fate has handed him.

I'm laughing hysterically over Road King's remark about julienned. What a good line!!

My book uses the word "puny" several times to describe Julien. But he is also described as being "well made." I wonder if "puny" was the correct translation. Sounds like a contradiction to me. Puny makes him sound small, thin, and sickly. Unattractive. I want another word! Words in posts above are "slim" and "slight." That's better. The curling locks sound good. He is described also as "pretty." Acquiline (sp?) nose. Whatever the case, the women certainly seem to like his appearance. But, please, take away the puny.

Road King, Julienned indeed, very funny, I needed a laugh this morning. But look how cruel old Sorel was, positively hateful. No wonder Julien hates him.

I just looked at the paragraph in Chapter 1V describing Julien's appearance in the three versions, the French, Tergie and Moncrieff. "Puny" is perhaps in another translation, but the French says faible en apparence "weak in appearance", which Tergie uses. He could look weak, but perhaps at that time it was not exactly how a carpenter should look for heavy work. Stendhal perhaps describes himself at 18 or 19 and according to his bio he was rather short and he had never done any work that needed muscles, so he could have been a slightly built teenager, perhaps blushing easily. He used all his imagination to create a Julien that looked like an embellishment of himself at that age.

In the next paragraph I read in French "Only one year ago his jolie figure "pretty figure" was starting to bring him a few friendly words from among the girls. That does not imply anything else than Julien was slight but handsome and girls liked him.

I would suggest to compare translations with the two in the heading, it helps to clarify the text.

Road King: "Is the narrator attracted to Julien?" why yes, he is describing himself isn't he?

“The grievance I find in the Cours de la Fidelite is the barbarous manner in which the authorities have cut these vigorous plane trees and clipped them to the quick. … But the wish of M. the Mayor is despotic, and all the trees belonging to the municipality are ruthlessly pruned twice a year.” (chapter 2)

I am convinced that not only is this passage metaphorical, but it is also foreshadowing something. The trees could be beautiful and useful if not over-pruned. I liken the trees to the people of Verrieres, who could be more prosperous and pleasant if no for the overbearing Mayor. Could this be foreshadowing the Mayor getting involved in someone’s life (Julien’s?) and forever altering the person and this person’s appearance and usefulness to society?

Maryal, your post #53 interested me for several reasons. First, I, too, am not feeling sympathetic toward Julien. I find myself annoyed with him. I am finding it hard to put into words why right now. I am in the process of rereading this week’s chapters (which is so useful when combined with everyone’s analysis), and know I will come across a few examples, which I will post.

I also take issue with the word boredom as a meaning of ennui. My book leaves the French word ennui untranslated, which I then looked up on dictionary.com and interpreted myself. I look forward to discussing the meanings with everyone.

Maryal said, “I thought one was supposed to have a vocation for taking holy orders.” I am no expert, but I just read The Constant Princess by Philippa Gregory. Henry the 8th is a secondary character in the book. He had an older brother who was to marry and become the next king of England and Henry was supposed to be a clergyman. However, the older brother died, making it necessary for Henry to become available to become King, so he didn’t continue his studies to be a clergyman. It appears that at some points and places in history that families designated one or more of their children for the church.

LauraD, I love your idea of the contrasts in "The Red and the Black." I also love, love Roadking's tile. I have enjoyed every post. I am enjoying the book too. I can't come to a decision about Julien. One minute I feel sympathy for him. The next minute I despise Julien. He seems like an iceberg or glacier. There is more under the surface than what appears above the surface. Since he is young, there is room for change. Is it possible Mme Renal will have an influence on this young man? Marni, as usual, you are giving great background information. PatH, thank you for your posts. Eloise, thank you for being here giving much needed support as we read this classic. Of course, thanks to JoanP and Deems.

I think that Boredom translates Ennui very well. To me ennui just sounds better, nothing else.

So far, I haven't seen an ounce of an ecclesiatic vocation in Julien except perhaps a place where he finds shelter, either away from society, from his dismal home, or from himself. I don't know, we will see.

I just see Julien as ambitious at this point. He sees power within the realms of the church. He chooses his path by who owns power and not by the passions of his heart. He really dislikes rich people. How can he even think of being a teacher of religion. His resentment is very deep. Will we learn why his resentment is so deep? Is it just normal if you are a peasant to hate those of the higher class? JoanP, the fabric pieces are beautiful.

I keep seeing a resemblance to the Count of Monte Cristo in Julien. He is cagey and cunning, ambitious and aggressive when he wants to be. Let us hope that his wiliness doesn't catch him in his own web of deceit. Like Hats, I really want to like him, give him the chance to make something of himself. He is young and full of trickery--- but I can not trust him.

Good morning, Hats! We've been waiting for you to make an appearance. Join the rest of us in our uncertainty about our feelings for Julien. As you point out, he is young - and green. He is out of his element in the Rênal household - and surely didn't get along with his father and his brothers at home. Maybe he will grow as the story progresses.

Andy, do you think it's enough to "want to like Julien" and just feel sorry for him, empathize with him throughout the novel? I keep remembering that Stendhal wrote this novel to explain his own past actions, no, to rewrite his own past. It seems he would plan to put Julien in a more favorable light before he is through. Has he already begun that - do you feel anything for him yet? Do you want to mother him, to counsel him, feed him?

LauraD - do you think it's possible to have a decidedly unsympathetic protagonist throughout a novel? Is there anyone with whom you can relate in these opening chapters? Maybe we'll have to settle on peripheral characters to "like. (I've met two so far.)

It's easy to see why his father was so frustrated with him. He wants him to work the family mill, but the boy has no interest and spends all his time with his books, as PatH has pointed out. (We need to talk about his proficiency in Latin at some point - the old surgeon-general was some teacher, no! The work is probably too much for him. He was too small for physical labor.

"Puny" - Marni - yes the word does connote "sickly" - in an unattractive way. We need to help you - will you tell which translation you are reading? Robert Adams in The Norton Critical edition refers to him as "feeble in appearance." Is that any better? He also notes "extreme pallor." I dunno - this implies "sickly" too, doesn't it? Éloïse provides the French "faible en apparence." Éloïse, do you think he's deteriorated since the previous year when the girls had begun to notice him?

Road King, you have a way with words - I'm not sure whether the narrator is attracted to the young man or if he is just noting that he is slim and exquisitely made. (Am laughing at Éloïse's comment - of course Stendhal admired him - he looked like himself!

) - Madame de Rênal mistook him for a girl when she first saw him, remember? He weeps a lot too - have you noticed that?"

LauraD - Maryal - I've been thinking about all the British novels we've been reading, written in this same time period. Wasn't it common for young men to enter the priesthood for economic reasons - especially second-born sons who weren't going to inherit the father's estate? We see how old Sorel relished the haggling over his son's position as Rênal's tutor. Maybe he will come to appreciate his son's calling to the priestly profession, though this probably isn't anything he would have "designated" - as upper class families might have done.

I'll agree with you, Hats - Julien has no vocation - but sees the priesthood as a way out. You ask - "Is it just normal if you are a peasant to hate those of the higher class?" I would say so - even though the Sorels have moved up a notch now that Papa has become successful and no longer a peasant - he still loves to get the better of his "betters." Julien seems to have a very fine-tuned sense of pride. Maybe he gets it from his father. If I had to guess, this pride will get Julien into trouble in the future.

Ennui - I fail to see anyone who is "bored" in Verrières - everyone seems too busy to be bored! Oh, well wait, the Parisian visitor might very well be bored in this narrow little town. I mean, after you've seen Pareeee.

We need to meet M. Valenod - the poorhouse director before moving inside the Rênals' home. Do you think M. Rênal is correct in assuming that M. Valenod would want Julien as a tutor for his own children?

Before I start installing my printer for a few hours I wanted to explain something about the word "pallor". In several French novels taking place in at that time, it was chic to be "pale", I am sure that it is not a word that means sickly, it just means that skin was prettier untanned because ladies never exposed their skin to the sun and we see with the Impressionists that women painted outdoors always held an 'ombrelle' and/or a wide trimmed hat to prevent the sun from burning their skin unless they were working in the garden as in Pissarro's paintings.

S's description of Julien as effeminate is somewhat strange to me, I wonder why.

I find it unbelievable that Julien was pale because he worked at the sawmill outdoors several hours a day handling timber. Another way of looking down on lower class people and S is good at that, I think.

Joan, I don't know how I am supposed to feel about Juliel or Stendhal. All I know is that I find him akin to a spoiled kid, enamored with his own selfish thoughts and actions. I would like to scold him for his egotism and own self-importance. He is only 19, so I am being patient with him. If the author indended to put himself in a favorable light, he has lost his way in the darkness of Julien's heart.

Julien sounds to me like an ugly duckling, at least in comparison to his father and brothers. I would feel sorry for myself too if my books were wrenched out of my hand and destroyed, my physical being subject to ridicule and attack and my manhood impugned. The inate nature of Julien was more like that of the aristocracy, wasn't it? As for the resentment by the peasantry of the aristocracy, that seems inevitable to me. The aristocrats "earned" their wealth by the sweat of the peasants. Sons followed their fathers as farmers, loggers, etc.

JoanP: My edition is the Barnes & Noble Classics paperback translated by Horace B. Samuel. So far it's been OK. Puny did bother me, though.

Julien does seem delicate, slim but well-proportioned, pale, pretty, with beautiful dark curly hair. Sort of the androgynous look. That look has attracted many a young lady, for some reason. For example, it seems like many lead rock stars have an androgynous look - David Bowie, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger, etc. I would say Julien is more androgynous than effeminate.

Didn't someone post early on that Stendhal had been big and had wished to be smaller and more delicate? Is Julien's appearance Stendhal's ideal?

I am liking more and more the idea that the red and the black refers to the military and the church, although I'm not sure which color refers to which. On my book cover, the military uniforms are red and black. Some in the church wore black; others wore red. The holy water in the Verrieres church was red like blood from the reflection of the curtains.

I think from the very first that we hear about Julien, we hear how he is influenced strongly by both the military and the church. We see him pulled strongly by both. I feel we will continue to see him pulled in these 2 directions.

One of his most important influences was the old soldier Surgeon-Major who boarded with the Sorels. He had gone through all of Bonaparte's Italian campaigns and he inspired Julien with his war stories. It was this old soldier who had taught Julien Latin and history and gave him many books. And, oh, those long white cloaks and black plumed helmets of the gallant Dragoons. "The sight made [Julien] mad on the military profession." Napoleon was his secret hero. Look how he had worked his was up from the gutter.

Another important influence on Julien was the old curé who had taught him theology for 3 years to prepare him for the seminary. The magnificent church in Verrieres was very impressive. Its beauty made Julien shudder. And some priests made huge salaries!

The first man would have filled Julien's head full of dreams of military power and glory; the second would have given him dreams of power and glory within the church.

Either the military or the church would have been a fine career path for someone of Julien's background. Whatever direction he chose, within Julien "lurked the unbreakable resolution to risk a thousand deaths rather than fail to make his fortune."

How different each path would be! Julien was only "18 or 19," a teenager who had been raised to work in the mill. No wonder he didn't know what he wanted to do. Just as long as it got him out of his father's house and out of his small town! And, ahah! Julien had a special gift that might get him on his way - his amazing memory. He had memorized the entire New Testament of the Bible in Latin. Oh, the town thought he was brilliant!

marni--You just suggested that The Red and the Black might be referring to the military and the church. Since you described the uniforms on the cover of your book as red and black, I'm wondering if that might not explain Both Colors.

Of course they could be separate entities, but the uniform does nicely combine them.

I think the red is blood. That's because I always associate red with blood when reading unless told not to by other clues. The black could be both the church and the military.

Wonderful label, Road King! And a fine pun on Julien's name. I never would have thought of it, probably since I don't cook all that much.

Andy--I'd like to give young Julien a piece of my mind as well. I suppose we can hope that he will improve. Sigh.

Eloise--I'm holding on to my idea that, in English anyway, ennui is a word with slightly different meaning than plain old boredom. That's why we imported it into the language. English is always stealing words from other languages.

I've forgotten who has the translation that did not translate the title of Chap. 6 (which turns out to be "L'Ennui" in the original, I checked) and simply put Ennui. That translator thinks about language like I do. Laura D, was that you?

Maryal

I started this late and have finally caught up reading the messages, and feel I can join the discussion now.

I think the church was just about the only path open in that town to a youngster like Julien. The sawmill and the rest of the town really didn't have anything to offer him. The priests took an interest in his education and advancement and offered him a way out of the small town trap.

Notice how quickly he accepted the position as a tutor with the Reynal family, and how much he seems to enjoy the new clothes that go with the position.

I'm sure I sound very sympathetic with Julien. I have been in a similar trap (cage?)

Juanita Millican

When I read this book 40 years ago, I stopped 2/3 of the way through partly because I found myself getting impatient with Julien Sorel, and I find myself getting impatient with him again. But my reaction to the book as a whole is quite different--I am understanding it better and seeing things I didn't see before--and I like the book much better. I am more sympathetic toward Julien, too. I appreciate more how stifling his life was and the limited nature of the choices open to him.

Pour down you wrath on me but I amm Hurrahing for Julien who has to get away from the Saw Mill and his demeaning family who are cut from a different cloth than he. Education and a clerical robe is his only hope of escape. So he chooses them.

In Chapter 5 we have this scene: Father Sorrel is yelling at him and accusing him of looking at Madame de Renal in Church:

"Not once! You Know, I only see God in Church" answered Julien, with a little hypocritical air, so well suited, so he thought,to keep out off the parental claws.""

What would you have done to keep parental claws from attacking you?

In those days being a cleric was a way to gain power and prestige, especially for those starting out in life . Remember the Mayor had designated his youngest son for the priesthood with not a thought as to whether the boy was suited to that profession or whether he might prefer a different type of life.

Giving a psychological portrait as Stendhal is doing means showing all of our heros warts. He is not perfect but he is trying to become a person of meaning.

Judy

Well, look - Juanita's here - and Mrs. Sherlock too! Welcome! Juanita, you seem to have more understanding of Julien's position than most. I think we'll look to you to for his defense - along with PatH and Judy - who understand how limited his choices were. (Pat, you had me scared there when you said you were getting impatient with Julien again - remembering what you did the last time... relieved you are liking it better now. I think this novel lends itself well to a group read.)

Jackie, you see our young man as an ugly duckling. But there are ladies in Verrières who find him attractive. We are told Mme. Rênal found him "extremely handsome."
Road King - how are you doing with Stendhal's autobiography - The Life of Henry Bulard.? Marni suggests that Stendhal is portraying Julien as small, "puny" almost effeminate, because he himself was the opposite. She asks whether Julien was his ideal - what do you think? From Henry Brulard -

"I have worn a sword all my life without knowing how to use it. I have always been fat and quick to get out of breath."

He also writes that he was the last chosen for games at school - because he didn't know how to play them. Oh, and he would cry in class when the teacher (whom he describes as a "peasant") berated him in front of everyone. His tears reminded me of Julien's - who is so quick to shed them.

I agree with you, Jackie - about his aristocratic airs. Where did he acquire these, growing up as he did? From books? ( Stendhal himself read a lot as a young man. Maybe Julien did too - and we don't know that yet.)

Eloise you make a point regarding his aristocratic "pallor." Somewhere in these early chapters I remember him beging described as from a painting by Fraggonard. Did Julien keep his pale skin because he didn't do too much work at the sawmill! I'll bet his brothers were "ruddy."

My only problem with the "red" signifying army uniforms, Marni is that I've never seen the French wearing red uniforms. Don't you associate red with the English? I suppose red could refer to bloodshed though?

Maryal - I thought the French wore dark blue - but if you see this as black - and red, then maybe the soldier's uniform could stand for "rouge"and "noir." Marni - does the uniform on the cover of your book look like the one pictured?

Right now I'm connecting the black with clerical robes - and not sure what the red is...the blood shed in war, perhaps. Will keep notebook open for more clues...maybe he gives it away in Henry Brulard.

I believe the translator left the word "ennui" untranslated is because it has been accepted as an English word - no need to translate. Just checked my American Heritage dictionary and see that it has been an accepted English word, meaning "boredom" since 1732.

Judy, that's a good point about showing all the hero's warts. I think most novels of that time did not.

Especially if the warts are psychological. To show them would be highly unusual for the time!

Just found this on the color of the uniforms -

"French infantry uniforms underwent many changes during the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, moving from the white coats of the Royal Army to the dark blue coats of the revolutionary forces.

Early on there was much resentment between the older regular troops (les blancs) and the newer units (les bleus), so in 1793 the official uniform was decreed to be blue.

However, shortages meant that many units did not change from their white coats for some time. In 1806 some units were changed back into white as part of an army transformation, but few remained in the former royal colour for long.

They were difficult to keep clean on campaign and it is said the Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte himself ordered the return to blue after seeing the white uniforms showing too much blood at the slaughterhouse that was Eylau. French Army Uniforms in the 19th century

The blood on the white royalists' uniforms - the red?

Yes, JoanP, that's the uniform on my cover. Here's the cover. Napoleon is in the middle.

resized

Well, the uniform jackets look as if they could be black or blue from here - except if you look at the tri-color flag, which we know is blue. It seems to be the same color as the uniforms.

The conjectures about the book's title are interesting but perhaps we should not be getting ahead of ourselves in trying to decipher the significance of The Red and the Black. Do you think Stendhal would like us to first immerse ourselves in his story and then speculate about the title?

Stendhal portrays Julien as a person who, very self-consciously, utilizes and embraces hypocricy as the price he's willing to pay "to make his fortune". Stendhal wrote, in his autobiography, The Life of Henry Brulard, that he had a lifelong disgust with "hypocrites of every sort". That statement would appear to argue against the theory that Julien is the person that Stendhal wishes he, himself had been.

I'm approaching this novel as I would examine a crime scene, limiting myself to one chapter a day because I want to make sure I don't overlook any small detail that might be an important clue to the plot development and outcome. Yes, I know that's obsessive and some of you are already many chapters ahead of me. You go on ahead. I'll catch up.

If the author is trying to direct our feelings about the characters, he seems to be trying to make our responses span the range between mild disapproval to outright distain. What I like though, is Stendhal’s ability to develop each of the characters’ with words and actions unique to themselves. Julien’s ambition, Mmw. De Renal’s passion, her husband’s arrogance etc. These characteristics are shared by all but each expresses them differently. I wonder if we are going to meet anyone who is not driven and self absorbed, but then would they be as compelling and interesting?? I’m wondering too if it is possible to have a decidedly "unsympathetic protagonist throughout a novel?" I’ll be patient and see of Judy’s mention of knowing Julien’s "warts" disappears. BERN

Road King, this seems a good day to talk about one of Julien's greatest faults, as I see it - his hypocrisy. It seems worse than his arrogance, though probably closely connected to it. Père Sorel calls him "hypocrite" without really understanding how aptly the description fits his son. (What was he referring to?) We are coming to understand how desperately Julien wishes to get out of Verrières - how he sees the priesthood as his way out. How does he see this position in the Rênal household as a stepping-stone out?

Did you understand why he stopped at the church on the way to the Rênals'home? I don't think he did this to be noticed. But why else then? And what was the meaning of the "blood" on the floor and the word on the piece of paper he found on the floor?

Bern - you present a laundry list of the shortcomings of the principle characters so far - "These characteristics are shared by all but each expresses them differently." You wonder if we are going to meet anyone not driven and self-absorbed. How about the old priest, M. Chélan? Has he not escaped Stendhal's criticism? If the "black" in the title - Le Rouge et le Noir - does in fact represent the clergy - M. Chélan represents the clergy in a positive light, doesn't he? He's the only one Stendhal doesn't come down on - or am I missing something?

Wonderful posts from everyone - Midweek is a busy and awkward time for me. Not much time to be dallying on SN.

The 'pool of blood' on the church floor seems to me to be something of a portent of things to come. It also reinforces the idea of 'le Rouge' referring to blood - maybe death. The scrap of paper may be a foreshadowing or a warning. I don't really understand why Julien simply 'crumpled the paper' and threw it away. These two things are scary and fill Julien with 'secret terrors' of which he is ashamed. Perhaps he is not quite as comfortable within the church as he should be if he wants to take holy orders.

I would find it difficult NOT to try to figure out the meaning of the red and the black since it is the title of the book. It has intrigued me since the beginning. In every chapter I find significant things that are either red or black. So, I can't help myself! But it's not stopping me from enjoying this book one bit.

Stendahl really is providing most wonderful characterizations, isn't he, whether we like the characters or not. And I think several of the characters are very in-depth. Julien is totally fascinating. What a complex young man. And how human we see him to be with all of his failings, confusions, expectations, fears, hates, desires, so many emotions.

I find myself up and down about Julien, up and down. He can be such a despicable person. And then I read how his brothers beat him bloody in his new black suit. Oh, it's so sad.

I beg your indulgence for taking up so much space with this long post and I promise not to do so again. I’m trying to make a case for my slow reading of this novel.

The mayor approached Père Sorel and made a straight-forward offer to hire Julien as tutor for his children. The shrewd old peasant had not succeeded in business by allowing commercial negotiations to be uncomplicated. Seeking to gain a bargaining advantage over M. de Rênal, he interrogates his son. The sawyer suspects that Julien has engineered this unexpected job offer by ingratiating himself with the mayor’s wife, via his friendship with the parson. “Answer me, . . . ; how do you come to know Madame de Rênal?”

In this question I begin to see and appreciate how cleverly Stendhal advances the plot by seeding the story with small details. Did you notice the play on words in Chapters 5 and 6?

Watch how Stendhal sets this up.

Julien is mystified by the mayor’s “strange proposal” to hire him as his children’s tutor. With his overactive imagination, he wonders if a trap is being laid for him. Filled with anxiety, he makes his way to M. de Rênal’s chateau to take up his new position. To reinforce the hypocrisy which is the currency that he hopes will buy his way out of Verrières, he enters the church.

Not being a property owner himself, Julien is insensitive to the territorial protectiveness that consumes his new employer. “Being alone in the church he took his seat on the bench that . . . bore the arms of M. de Rênal”.

Adding to the uneasiness he was already feeling, he reads an ominous message and then mistakes spilled holy water for blood. He is ashamed of the “secret terror” that grips him and rallies himself with a battle cry, “To arms!”. Thus emboldened, Julien leaves the church and hastens to his first meeting with Madame de Rênal.

Fast forward to Chapter 6.

Julien (teenage testosterone at full gallop) and Madame de Rênal (thirty years old but still pretty) are quite taken with each other on first acquaintance. Julien impetuously raises the lady’s hand to kiss it. This action causes her shawl to slip and uncovers her bare arm.

To arms, indeed! Stendhal first hints that Julien has no qualms about trespassing on the mayor’s property – the bench that BEARS THE ARMS of M. de Rênal. The battle cry, TO ARMS! advances the action and the point is thrust home when Julien UNCOVERS HER BARE ARM.

Back in Chapter 5, at the time old Sorel asked Julien, “How do you come to know Madame de Rênal?”, Julien could not have suspected that he would COME TO KNOW this bored and desperate housewife very well indeed.

Road King, I'm not at all annoyed and I love close reading. I paid special attention to the spilled holy water that Julien mistakes for blood, and I noticed his courage-gathering mantra, "To arms!" but I didn't connect it with the bare arm in the next chapter. Thanks for that.

What I did notice in the next chapter is how sensual those bare arms are at the time period. Not, probably, in Paris, but in the provinces, oh yes. Must keep the shawl over the arm, must prevent anyone from getting a glimpse of skin on an appendage. I would never have made it back then.

Joan P--I forgot to answer your good point about the church and how in aristocratic families with primogeniture ruling, many families designated one son for the church. However, as you also point out, Julien's family is peasant at root. I doubt his father would have ever thought of any position for any of his sons other than working in the saw mill. I agree with you that Julien is probably pale because he hides away in the shadows reading while his brawny brothers do the work. That's where his father finds him when he comes with word of the tutoring position.

Maryal

A novel is a mirror which passes over a highway. Sometimes it reflects to your eyes the blue of the skies, at others the churned-up mud of the road.

Far less envy in America than in France, and far less wit.

It is the nobility of their style which will make our writers of 1840 unreadable forty years from now.

Logic is neither an art nor a science but a dodge.

Love has always been the most important business in my life, I should say the only one.

I have completed my rereading of this week’s chapters and determined what I find unsympathetic about Julien’s character. He is a hypocrite! On the second reading, I was feeling more sympathetic towards him until I read Chapter VII. Here are a couple of quotes from the chapter:

1) “There were certain ‘full-dress’ dinners at which he was scarcely able to control his hate for everything that surrounded him.”

2) “Julien found Madame de Renal very pretty, but he hated her on account of her beauty…”

3) I was also annoyed when he took Madame de Renals’ offer of some money for linen to be a snub. She was showing him kindness but he was so rude.

4) Oh, and one from the end of Chapter VI: “That evening all Verrieres flocked to M. de Reanl’s to see the prodigy. Julien answered everybody in a gloomy manner and kept his own distance.” Julien was anxious to get away from his family, yet he has hateful feelings toward the people who are treating him with kindness and respect. In my opinion, he should be grateful. I am curious to see how Julien’s character will develop. His actual feelings are in contrast to his words and actions.

By the way, I can read a book in which I don’t like the main character quite easily.

And speaking of contrasts again, I noticed a couple more:

1) Julien’s feelings about Madame de Renal

2) Madame de Renal’s feelings about all men (“most brutal callourness to everything except financial gain, precedence, or orders…”) versus her feelings about Julien

Maryal, it was me who translated ennui myself. Boredom is a fine word to use. However, from the text, I inferred more meaning; restlessness and discontent associated with boredom. In Chapter VII, it is stated that “M. de Renal felt very proud, the moods of her mind were usually dictated by a spirit of the most haughty discontent.” That, coupled with the quote from Figaro at the beginning of Chapter VI (titled Ennui), which is translated in my book as “I know longer know what I am nor what I’m doing,” leads me toward a more active boredom (restless, discontent) as opposed to an inactive boredom (sitting around yawning).

Road King, you have quite a talent for noticing plays on words!

As for the church scene, I thought that water mistaken for blood, coupled with the paper on which the last syllable of the name is the same as Julien’s, foreshadow the spilling of Julien’s own blood. I haven’t read the book, so I am just speculating with this thought.

Bon soir, mes amis!
LauraD, you have reached the same opinion Old Sorel has of his son - a hypocrite indeed he is. But I don't think his father knows just how much of a hypocrite he is! Not only a hypocrite, but an arrogant one at that. Do you think that the two go together - hypocrisy and arrogance?

My sympathy goes to Mme. Rênal - the poor thing has no idea how her every word and gesture sends a misconstrued message to the "boy." Such irony - everything she admires about him, he takes as criticism or condescension. It seems as if this will be their relationship throughout, doesn't it? How or when can they ever reach an understanding?

Road King - please don't ever apologize for long posts - you have unlimited bytes here! From your post, I'm beginning to understand the reason Julien enters the Church in the first place. He's filled with anxiety about his new post. He has no support from his family. He had wanted to go into the army, but has concluded that he will do better as a priest. Does he intend to remain in the priesthood, taking vows, remaining celibate? I don't think so, do you? At least he'll be out of Verrières. But he stops in the Church on the way up the hill to the Rênals - to reinforce his decision. He has no one in the world but the Church right now.

Marni, I know where you are coming from. Stendhal tosses off the colors red and black at every turn. Sunlight filtering through the red fabric covering the church windows for a festival - turns the holy water on the floor red...so that it looks like blood. So for now, "red" is associated with the Church. But then Madame Rênal expresses concern when she sees he is not wearing black - thinks she is mistaking him for someone else as she was expecting a young man in black clerical gown. I bet we'll see this throughout. Keep notes!

Gum, I wasn't surprised that he crumpled the paper and tossed it away. He probably wanted to distance himself from it. It was frightening for two reasons. First, it reports an execution and second the man executed was named Louis Jenrel. I hadn't noticed, but have a footnote that tells Louis Jenrel is an anagram of Julien Sorel. As Road King writes - this is an ominous message, not lost on Julien.

"To arms!"

"Fast forward to Chapter VI"

Laura--Your third point about Julien was "I was also annoyed when he took Madame de Renals’ offer of some money for linen to be a snub. She was showing him kindness but he was so rude."

I'm annoyed by Julien too, but I think I understand his haughtiness in this situation. Having one's undergarments and neck coverings and handkerchiefs (which is what I take "linen" to be) mentioned by someone of the opposite sex would be insulting by itself, or maybe embarrassing is a better word, but to have this wealthy woman offer to give him money to buy new linen cuts him to the core because it's one more incidence of the rich having no sensitivity. And then there's the part where Mme. de Renal tells him that her gift must be kept secret from her husband.

However, defense aside, I agree that Julien is not a very admirable character, and no, kind-hearted Joan P, I don't feel sorry for him. He makes it hard for me to do that.

I'm really enjoying reading this book with all of you though and like Laura D, I have no trouble reading a book when I don't much like the protagonist.

~Maryal, the one with a heart of stone

Maryal, do you take "linen" as undergarments? Well then yes, I think Julien has every reason to be a.) mortified b.) insulted. I guess I'm defending the boy again. But I can see Madame trying to put him into perspective. If she denies her attraction to him, then she needs to treat him as a "boy" - as one of her sons who is in need of some new undies.

I hadn't noticed the clever play on words between the two chapters. five and six, Road King. Thank you. Julien jumps from the pew bearing M. Rênal's coat of arms, announcing his territory - into the very arms of Rênal's wife.

Maryal notes that bare arms were considered sensual back in the provinces at this time - I found that interesting because while reading Stendhal's autobiography, he tells of his attraction to his own mother's arms, neck, bosom and loves to cover them with kisses. (he's only six years old at this time - his mother 30 when she died.) In this same work, he tells of the women he's loved - skin and arms have always attracted him.

Madame is certainly relieved to have this "girlish" tutor, rather than the ogre she thought was moving into her house to beat her boys, Adolphe and Stanislaus-Xavier into learning Latin. (But do you remember she had three sons climbing the parapet in Liberty Square in the opening chapters?)

LauraD, I'm wondering why Chapter 6 is titled "Ennui" as I see neither restlessness or boredom in the Rênal household. Could Madame be bored or restless without knowing it?

Tomorrow - "Elective Affinities"...now there's a title that begs explaining. Anyone?

ps. Eloise - out of context I have to wonder at some of those quotes.

"It is the nobility of their style which will make our writers of 1840 unreadable forty years from now."

Is he talking about his own writing? If so, he sounds rather arrogant, doesn't he?
I checked Robert Adams' translation - he doesn't translate to sheep shearing in Chapter 2 - refers to the prunings as "the products of shearing."

Having downloaded my copy from to my portable Project Gutenberg, I looked about for an on-line french-english dictionary only to strike out on my first three tries with those inadequate to Beyle's vocabulary. Finally, I came across http://french.about.com/library/bl-collins-fe.htm which appears adequate for the task.

Regarding question 1.2, I look to Sinclair Lewis and Steven Leacock for discussion of small-town life in North America in the early 20th century and my own experiences in the small company-dominated towns of the mid-west and church-dominated towns of the south in the late 20th century but haven't got a clue about the 19th. Am I supposed to think Scarlet Letter or Sartoris or Little House on the Prairie?

More and more facets of Julien's character are being revealed to us.

Trespasser. In the church he sat on the mayor's bench.

After reading the paper which was not addressed to him, he crumpled it. I'm groping for the right word to describe that action. Help me out, some of you wordsmiths.

He's memorized the New Testament but doesn't believe its message. He has decided to enter the priesthood, not to serve the faithful but to serve himself.

Usurper. He takes or uses what does not belong to him.

It's becoming hard for me to like this kid.

With Chapter 3, I find myself asking ,"is Beyl the French Thomas Hardy or the French Charles Dickins?" And is life in today's world much different from mid 19th-Century France? The homeless are everywhere yet somehow invisible;we now need worry about the malfeasance of the senior conservator; and the Catholic Church remains divided on the clergy's proper role in social reform.

Roadking, if you mean "crumpled" to translate "froissa" I don't see a better translation. "et il froissa la papier"

From what I have read in the preface and postface the army and the church were the only place where a young ambitious man such as Julien could hope for advancement in Post Napoleonic time. He didn't have wealthy parents or relatives who supported this vast ambition, but he could rely on his only talents, charm and his phenomenal memory. It appears that he is going to use both of these talents now.

I don't expect to like the protagonist in a novel, but through Julien, Stendhal is expressing his bottled up anger and frustration about society in general, while exposing hypocrisy and cruelty of people in his entourage. Julien had probably been abused as a child, at least that is what I gather from how his father treated him.

I like everybody's post and I am learning a lot from them, but I can't post very often now but I am reading every day.

Joan wrote, awhile back, that she was finding The Red and the Black to be troubling. That's been my reaction to reading Stendhal's autobiography, Henry Brulard. The emotional and social deprivation of his childhood are most distressing - and depressing. In that autobiography, by the way, he describes depression as being "black".

Éloïse, thank you. I didn't make myself clear about the crumpled paper. I was trying to find a word which characterized what Julien did, not looking for an alternative translation to the word, "crumpled".

Your contributions to this discussion have been invaluable. Whenever you can find the time to post, I know I'll learn something.

I keep seeing references now to how poor Julien is, such as with his shortage of linen, and how he is a peasant. Interesting since his father, who had been a peasant, was described early on as rich because of his crafty business dealings and miserly ways. It is apparent old Sorel gave Julien nothing and expected Julien to hand over his earnings and pay for past boarding costs.

Of course the answer depends on one's location and one's wealth. But the poor in the US have been helpless as Trailways and Greyhound closed down their routes. The major East-West rail line across the southern U.S., severed in a hurricane two years ago, has yet to be reconnected. The businesses in town have closed, the remaining retail outlet can be reached by car--if you have one.
Though apart from the preacher, the voices of local authorities go unheeded; syndicated voices carried by the local radio and TV stations have taken their place. And you'd be thought an ignorant fool if you believed other than what those voices had to say.
La plus ca change, la plus la meme chose. .

Maryal, I do understand your response to my point #3 about the linen (noted somewhere in my book as under garments). I thought twice about including it as a reason to not sympathize with Julien. However, despite the fact that Julien was justified in being embarrassed, I think his response was too harsh. We read how he cannot think of anything to say on walks with Madame de Renal, so we know he can keep his mouth shut. He was lacking social graces, which Madame de Renal was helping him with, according to the text. Maybe we could chalk his response up to that. However, I can’t help how I felt and reacted to that passage, so I will stick with my original feelings of annoyance with him.

Joan, I didn’t see any boredom exhibited by the characters either. However, it is noted in the text. Here are a couple of examples:

“[Madame de Renal] was a naïve soul, who had never educated herself up to the point of judging her husband and confessing to herself that he bored her. … To sum up, she found M. de Renal much less boring than all the other men of her acquaintance.” (Chapter III)

“Cold, just and impassive, and none the less liked, inasmuch [Julien’s] arrival had more or less driven ennui out of the house, he was a good tutor.” (Chapter VII)

“M. de Renal felt very proud, the moods of her mind were usually dictated by a spirit of the most haughty discontent.” (Chapter VII)

“After the fall of Napoleon, every appearance of gallantry has been severely exiled from provincial etiquette. People are frightened of losing their jobs. All rascals look to the religious order for support, and hypocrisy has made firm progress even among the Liberal classes. One’s ennui is doubled. The only pleasures left are reading and agriculture.” (second to last paragraph of Chapter VII)

By the way, I don’t think hypocrisy and arrogance have to go together. Fear could cause someone to be hypocritical. In that case, it would almost be the opposite of arrogance.

Am I the only reader to stand up for Julien? The author tells us that Juliens Koran consists of three books, uppermost are the "Confessions Of Rousseau" (1712-1788).

Rousseau was a very controversial figure in his day and afterward. Personally I admire his "Emile, on l'education", which is a method of teaching that says that the educator should take into consideration the natural proclivities of the student rather than strive to eliminate them, as was the custom in those days (And in some places even today.).

Rousseau began to apply his principles to political issues. He maintained that every variety of injustice found in human society is a result of the control exercised by defective political and intellectual influences. Many of his ideas influenced the French Revolution. And the American Revolution as well.

Julien is a deep reader, influenced by Napoleon and Rousseau. He is surrounded by cruel brutes and people who care only of their outward appearances and amassing wealth and power.

You say he is a hypocrite. Should he flaunt his ideas and real thoughts to these folk? Stendhal reminds us that Julien has only spoken truthfully to one person, the Surgeon General.He is only 19 ! He lives in a hostile world.

Ask yourself what you would have done in his place.? What are his choices? He is looking for a toehold out of his narrow world. We can expect that he will do many despicable things before he becomes the person he wishes to be.That is why Stendhal is a psychological writer. His hero is a real person not a perfect human being..

Judy

Bon après-midi, mes amis! What a wonderful surprise - zanybooks.com has joined us for the first time! Maybe we call you "zany" 0r "dodie", please? You've downloaded the French - this means you will be reading Le Rouge et Le Noir en Français?

Regarding your first question - yes Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter and Salem in 1850 would be a good town to consider.
"Is life in today's world much different from mid 19th-Century France?" An interesting question. My first impulse is to say yes, much different. The Aristocracy is no longer in control. (But it takes a lot to win elections doesn't it?

Here's a big difference right off - Éloïse writes, "the army and the church were the only place where a young ambitious man such as Julien could hope for advancement." Not so today. By the way, Éloïse, a French-speaker has read the novel in French, and I'd like to echo Road King - she is an invaluable resource for our discussion.

But you make a point on the increasingly insularity - "La plus ca change, la plus la meme chose." You ARE speaking French, aren't you! We are so happy to have you join us, Zany!
Welcome!

I agree with you, Judy. We are seeing Julien's innermost thoughts through the narrator. Imagine if our own innermost thoughts were on display. I imagine many of us would appear despicable at times.

I was thinking of how Julien hated the de Renal children - at least in this section. That sort of startled me about Julien when I first read it. But, really, he was 18 years old, out of his home for the first time in his life, having to teach several children of a wealthy family, whom Julien probably thought were spoiled brats considering how the Mme doted on them. They had everything and Julien had been brought up with little and had been abused. Probably much of what he did was babysit. He had never taught before. He was probably partly jealous, a bit overwhelmed, and probably sick of the children sometimes.

I had to babysit all the time when I was a teenager. I hated it. I taught high school kids in a very wealthy community when I first got out of college at age 22. I thought many were spoiled brats. I hated it. Today I feel differently about children. Maturity and experience make a big difference. Maybe it will for Julien, too.

All the negative character traits you mention boil down to disrespect - or lack of respect, don't they, Road King?" The trespassing - crumpling a paper not even addressed to him - I didn't even consider the person it was intended for. It was on the lecturn. Was it an announcement? What did you think of the fact that the name on the paper was an anagram for "Julien Sorel"? Just a coincidence? Julien was so frightened, he didn't think so.

Let's talk about memorizing the New Testament - in Latin? Why would he do that - except to impress others? If it was for his own edification or love for the words of the Bible, wouldn't he have memorized it in French?

The author, Stendhal did the same thing - memorized the New Testament in Latin as a young man. I wonder whether he will confess his reason for doing that in his autobiography. Did Julien do it to impress M. Chélan so he might stand a better chance of getting into the seminary? Can we fault him for that? I guess we can call him an opportunist too. Same question, can you blame him?

The more I think about it, didn't Julien take the tutoring job simply to get out of the sawmill business and away from home? Getting out of Verrières doesn't seem to be something he's planning for the immediate future. Maybe he will, but maybe he won't go into the priesthood after his dalliance at the big Rênal estate.

> Maybe as Marni says, we don't appreciate how difficult it was for this boy, who is really "poor" even if his father has made some big money with his sawmill. I can see where he would have hated the luxuries the little rich boys enjoyed. And remember, he'd lost his own mother when a little boy. Seeing Madame dote on these children must have struck a chord.

Maybe the reason he shows no respect, is that he has none, but feels he must pretend. He really is very good at it, isn't he? Although at times he forgets himself and comes across as "harsh" as LauraD points out. He reveals his pride, which is being severely tested.

Judy, your post forces us to take another look at this boy. "Fear could cause someone to be hypocritical." You make an excellent point! "We can expect that he will do many despicable things before he becomes the person he wishes to be." Uh oh - stay tuned. Madame de Rênal seems to be directly in his line of fire.

LauraD - thank you for pointing out all the "ennui" quotes. I find her position as depressing as Julien's in many ways. He at least has choices to make - her future with M. de Rênal is sealed.

"She found M. de Renal much less boring than all the other men of her acquaintance.” I remember smiling at this when I read it. What will happen to this unquestionably virtuous wife and mother of two/three when Julien rocks her world? (When will we learn her first name? Will Julien continue to call her Madame?)

Does the title of Chapter 7, "Elective Affinities" mean anything to anyone of you?

Joan, I didn't mean I wasn't going to leave, not at all, I love to discuss this book. I only wish you could all read it in French it is sheer music.

Il avait si peu de linge - He had so little clothing. Page Chapter V11 5th paragraph.

Julien's pride is hurt when Madame offers him money to buy clothing. To me Julien is an awkward teenager but as a child brought up with an abusive father, he is over sensitive. He hates to admit he loves Madame who is the first woman to disturb him that much. He hates admitting to himself he is in love with her.

Madame is the only one in the house who doesn't treat him as an inferior. All this 19 year old boy wants right now is, one get rich, two have his women, and three enjoy life to the fullest, he is so YOUNG and I can forgive him anything, I didn't like taking risks when I was 19, perhaps that is why I feel sympathy for him.

Let's wait and see how this Frenchman is going to seduce Madame de Renal, I am anxious to see your reaction to that.

The posts come at such speed that I can barely keep up reading, never mind answer them. So I will jump right in at random.

I totally agree with ÉLOÏSE about the incomparable elegance of the French text. I also agree with MARYAL in her instinctual feeling about "Boredom". The title of the French chapter is in fact "L'ennui". (more about that later)

It is fine to take things literally, that's what I am used to doing. By the same token I don't think we should base our impression of a character's outward appearance on one or two words that may well have been clumsily translated.

For example, I looked for "suppleness" and for "puny" without success in my translation (Margaret Shaw, 1953) and an equivalent in the French text. When more questions may come up, but could we please refer to the chapter number and, if possible, the paragraph.

Stendhal is in effect, as ELOISE said, holding up a mirror to expose the hypocrisy of the society of the time, and society comes up wanting. Stendhal's psychological insight is amazing. Little has changed since. In our "enlightened" century the driving motives still are love and hate, power and money, good and evil, life and death.

JUDY, you are not alone. It is too early to prejudge or give up on Julien, who is anything but a spoiled child. Who would have spoiled him ?
He is an oddity in this family. The father, old Sorel, is a brute with a super keen eye for money, who thinks nothing of roughing up the youngster who is unusually delicate compared to his strapping brothers. The sly old man "negotiates" his son's future as if he were a piece of cattle. The brothers take turns beating him too. What abomination !

Julien, we are given to understand, looks a bit effeminate, and Mme de Rênal almost takes him for a girl at first, as he stands there by the door. "Que voulez-vous ici, mon enfant?" is her first question. "mon enfant", she says, = "my child".

Once she knows who he is she calls him "Monsieur" (abbr. M.), much to his surprise. The English translation renders this as "Sir". He enters the house and indeed a different world beyond his wildest imagination. The family is impressed by him. He is going to be a good teacher. M. de Rênal tries a few half-forgotten phrases by Horace on Julien, to impress and compete. Alas, all poor Julien knows is the New Testament he has memorized, thanks to the priest, one of two people who gave him some attention.

However, Julien is a clever observer and decides that if if takes hypocrisy to succeed he might as well have "a go at it". But he has some way to go. Where we are now in the story, the poor young man has no idea even of how to make conversation (and how could he ?)

Back to "boredom" and ennui. I believe that Mme de Rênal's life was in effect monotonous, governed by routine and the sene of duty the nuns had taught her. Sixteen when she married, she had no wordly experience. Who knows whether she was bored ? She might have been, and who would blame her ? Stendhal apparently presumed she was. So let's n quibble over that.

This is a love story, and a most unlikely one. Let's focus on that.

There's also some information I'd like to share about France after the revolution of 1789.

Forgot to add that I agree with ÉLOÏSE's interpretation of the "linge" incident. Madame meant well and Julien overreacted.

JOAN, the French title of chapter 7, "Les affinités électives", is aptly and literally translated. There really is no other.

Joan, you asked: “Is it believable that someone as proud and ambitious as Julien could rise from his family and environment?”

That quality of believability is one of things that has been of such interest to me in this novel. Except for a few minor details, I think Stendhal’s story and characters are quite believable. I know these people! Don’t we know all the character types in this story? We have been brought up with them and by them. We’ve played and worked with them. We’ve had to accommodate ourselves to their idiosyncracies. These characters have cheated, oppressed and inspired us. The world is a dangerous place but we, like Julien, have learned some survival skills from these people.

Stendhal’s characters are vividly portrayed but they are not caricatures as, for instance, some of Dickens’ characters are.

I do find it believable that Julien could “rise FROM his family and environment” but it occurs to me that he may not rise ABOVE them. I agree with Traude S, that "Julien is a clever observer and decides that if if takes hypocrisy to succeed he might as well have 'a go at it'. But he has some way to go."

There seems not to have been a maternal influence in his upbringing so he leaves home as a person very much like his father – calculating, suspicious and, when the situation required, hypocritical. He’s learned his lessons well.

On the subject of Julien learning the new Testament in Latin by memory--I was wondering if he really understood it or only memorized the Latin. When the M. de Renal mangles some Horace, he seems not to understand and pretends not to deem to stoop to anything secular. He has no interest in really understanding the Bible, but in pretending to be pious.

Julien had an unusual background for a peasant in that he learned to read and what he read was about Napoleon and Napoleon becomes his hero and model. As Napoleon begin in a lowly life and went on through a brilliant military career to become the most powerful man in the world--Julien hopes to emulate his career. When Napoleon meets his unfortunate Waterloo, Julien must hide all his feelings for him--they did show through at times however. Julien’s now sees his means of advancement as being through the priesthood.

Bon matin, mes amis!
Look!!! - boookworm - has joined us - and Traudee too! We've been looking for the both of you. This is wonderful!

boookworm - the very fact that Julien has learned how to read sets him apart from his family, doesn't it? Do you really think he didn't understand the Bible passages he memorized? Or didn't believe them, or give them much thought. Scarey to think that he really might enter the priesthood someday! He does relate to everything Napoleon wrote though. If his only two choices are army and priesthood, I know what he ought to choose - even if he doesn't earn as much. It's this driving ambition to earn money that is going to get in the way of his true "affinity."

Traudee - I'm all tangled up in the two words put together - "Elective Affinities." "Affinity" seems to indicate a "natural attraction." "Elective" indicates "choice" - doesn't it? How can you consciously elect to follow something that is "natural." I can see Julian choosing the priesthood over his natural attraction to the army - and making it APPEAR that it is his natural affinity - but that choice doesn't seem to apply to this chapter. Chapter 7 seems to concern itself with Madame and her natural attraction to Julien. She fights it, but more and more, in spite of herself, she seems to go against her intellect and upbringing to CHOOSE to follow her feelings for Julien. It's not a conscious decision though. She doesn't seem to know this is what she is doing. I saw it when she went to the leftist bookstore and bought books she knew Julien would like.
Is this how the rest of you interpret the title and the content of this chapter?

Road King - It's odd, that I'm beginning to accept the things I noted as unbelievable - after reading your posts here. Memorizing the New Testament in Latin was one - and yet Stendhal himself managed to do this. Of course he came from a privileged background and had an education.

Then there's the coincidence of the name on the announcement in the church - LOUIS JENREL, an anagram of JULIAN SOREL.
And of course, there's Madame's attraction to Julian. They can't communicate on any subject. Is it physical attraction (hard to believe) - or something more subtle? Quite unbelievable at first glance. Has Stendhal managed to manipulate us already?

Roadking, I do agree with what you said except "There seems not to have been a maternal influence in his upbringing". He had his mother's in the first and most important part of his life and he is seeing in Madame a lot of the qualities his mother had such as tenderness.

And Judy, right, priesthood could elevate him, or a fortunate mariage with a rich lady and he practiced both pursuits diligently in the Renal home. For future use?

I still find it hard to believe that an illiterate carpenter's son would find himself knowing a whole book in Latin, while working at the mill. He first would have been attending a good school. Could Father Chelan teach him that much? Well, I don't have to find everything logical to enjoy the read.

I find it difficult to believe that at a time when working-class girls were married at 14 and working-class men at 16, that 19-yr old Julien has somehow avoided any sort of entanglement. Even the clergy of that period often had something on the side.

Joan asked, “Does the title of Chapter 7, "Elective Affinities" mean anything to anyone of you?”

When in doubt, look it up, is my motto. Elective - open to choice Affinity - a natural liking for or attraction to a person, thing, idea, etc. To me, this title must refer to the mutual attraction between Julien and Madame de Renal. It is a plural title, so, therefore, that attraction is not one sided. I don’t think it would apply to Madame de Renal and her husband because I doubt her marriage to him was by choice.

Eloise said, “Let's wait and see how this Frenchman is going to seduce Madame de Renal, I am anxious to see your reaction to that.”

I am looking forward to reading about that! This sentence on the second page of Chapter VII whet my appetite:

“[Madame de Reanl] saw Julien lying on the ground and thought that he was dead. She was so overcome that she made M. Valenod jealous.”

Hmmm…I wonder how M. Valenod will figure into the story.

I can believe that Julien is an 18 year old virgin. He doesn’t seem to have very good social skills, and doesn’t see interested in very many people at all.

As I read and reread the comments of others here, I find my notions of what distinguishes great writing (Stendhal) from the facile Sheldon) or Grissom( Rainmaker) from Grissom (Firm) reconfirmed. The facile writer, not content with show, goes on to tell us what to think and feel. In Stendhal's writing, there is so much room for individual interpretation. To quote another Frenchman, DeSade: "One mirror sees the man as beautiful and loves him, the other as frightful and hates him. But it is always the same being who produces the impressions." And so it seems to be with our reactions to Stendhal's characters. P.S. I'm wondering when the 30-year old she (married for 14 years) will get the 19-year old he into bed.

I'm playing catch up here. Please refer to Chapter 5 and the cryptic note that Julien found in church. That scene didn't work for me. It seemed contrived and unneccessary. Did anyone else think it struck a false note in this otherwise plausible tale?

Now to Chapter 7. I've had all day to think about this but even a mind-cleansing walk by the river did not relieve my ambivalence about how to make sense of some parts of this chapter. What do you think about Madame de Rênal discarding all that she had learned in the convent but failing to replace that education with anything?

Did Julien over-react to Madame de Rênal’s offer to secretly give him money to purchase linen? I acknowledge that he was abrupt with her but – might he have been guarding himself against becoming a pawn in a marital intrigue? Maybe that’s too complicated an explanation for his outburst. It’s becoming hard for me to take him at his word but I’m willing to cut him some slack in this instance. He wanted to be honest in his dealings with the mayor. Is it that simple? An honest hypocrite!

Hi everyone - I was on vacation last week and not able to participate in the discussion - but I have read everyone's messages - and am really impressed by everyone's thoughts, insights, and analyses - and humor.

In my translation (by Roger Gard) a note indicates that the chapter title "elective affinities" is an allusion to Goethe's novel "Die Wahlverwandtschaften" (1809) which was translated into French as "Les Affinites Electives." So I decided to do a little research on Goethe's novel and this is some of what I found. "Elective affinities" is a phrase that has meaning in the world of natural sciences and Goethe imported it into the arena of human relations - the phrase refers to the unpredictable separations and realignments that may result when new personal encounters disturb an equilibrium. In Goethe's novel the happy marriage of two wealthy amateurs is disturbed by the intrusion of an old friend and a young niece into their dilettante existence. Goethe's novel is one of the world's classic tales of adultery - it explores the idea of what it means to be in love and what the consequences of love may be. According to Roger Gard, Stendhal was interested in Goethe's book (considered to be immoral at the time) and Goethe admired The Red and the Black.

To get back to our book,Julien is the new element introduced into the lives of the de Renal family disturbing their equilibrium. The children adore him but he doesn't care for them - doesn't even give them a second thought. The Mayor doesn't know what to do with him - he doesn't really like him but doesn't want to let him go because Valenod may snatch him up. And most interesting of all is his affect on Mme de Renal. She has fallen in love with him but doesn't even know what has happened to her. She has no "experience of life" - she has a very limited education. Stendhal says that if they had lived in Paris her relationship with Julien (and his with her) would have been swiftly simplified - "they would have found the explanation of their situation in three or four novels." In the last paragraph of Chapter 7, Stendhal states that she "had never in her life either felt or seen anything the least in the world like love." The encounter with Julien has certainly disturbed the equilibrium of this family. What are the consequences going to be for the de Renals and for Julien - I look forward to finding out.

Welcome back, Glencora - and thank you so much for your research into "Elective Affinities"! (Maybe we should read Goethe's work next!

"Elective affinities" - the phrase refers to the unpredictable separations and realignments that may result when new personal encounters disturb an equilibrium"

Yes, I do see Julien as the new element introduced into the lives of the Rênal family and really disturbing their equilibrium. The funny thing is, it was NOT Julien's or Madame's idea to come to the house - but rather M. Rênal, who "elected" to introduce him into the household. And I agree with you - Madame de Rênal does not know she is in love - does not know what love is. (Though, I'm not certain this is love, are you? I don't pretend to know what love IS, but don't think that this is it.)

It is for this reason that I don't think "the 30-year old will get the 19-year old into her bed, Zany - in fact, I don't think it even occurs to her. If anything is to happen between them, it will have to be the other party who seduces her.

- "An honest hypocrite!"

Road King! Just when I'm beginning to think our Julien is not a hypocrite at all. Following Laura D's example, I looked up the definition of a hypocrite - "one who professes beliefs, feelings, or virtues one does not hold." I'm not sure he doesn't hold them. I am beginning to see him as a young man, at the threshhold of his life who has made a consious decision to choose a path. I think he sees his path as the priesthood, and so does all he can to adapt to this life - reading his Bible, learning Latin, visiting the church before making his way to the Rênals. I don't think he had any intention of seducing Madame when he first came to the house. He really believed he had made a career choice - and by adapting the appearances of this profession, he thought he could make it happen.

Zany - we are told that it is in the past year that the village girls have just begun to notice Julien. Before that he was a "puny" boy, of no interest to them. By the time the girls notice him, he has committed to the life of a priest...and therefore does not dally with them. He probably looked down on them too, don't you think?

I agree with your comments on Stendhal's writing and DeSade's comment, which applies to Stendhal's writing, Zany

Joan asks: Does it seem that Julien dislikes all of his acquaintances. I wouldn't say that Julien dislikes everybody when he says that, it is the same as when I say to myself sometimes "I hate this", which means that I am annoyed right now. Rather, I think he is saying he hates what they are doing, or he hates some trait of their character. But to say that he has permanent hatred for people is far fetched. He can change his mind according to circumstances. He is not a hateful man, but a very driven man.

This doesn't mean that I excuse everything he does, no but I can understand what he is going through. I feel also that both had never encountered that kind of passion before in their life and didn't know how to deal with it. The permissiveness we see today between young people didn't exist at the time. Nice unmarried girls were constantly chaperoned and kept close to home by parents keeping young girls "pure" seeking a good match for them. Julien, I think, was always looking for ways to improve his situation.

Elegant FASHION in the 19th century. I was very interested in the bonnets ladies wore, scroll down on the left side.

Holy moly, look at those fashions that Eloise has granted us with her URL. No wonder everyone is a virgin.

Road King says "What do you think about Madame de Rênal discarding all that she had learned in the convent but failing to replace that education with anything?"
Learning in the convent sequestered from the rest of the world, women were isolated and insulated. They learned their grammar, handwriting, aesthetic principles and the ways to achieve being a "proper woman." they learned to be stoic, passive and servile. I'm not sure, but I doubt at that time they were taught the classics (as men were), or anything that would require any profound thoughts or theories. It doesn't appear as if the Madame would know what road to choose, would she? Or am I being too hard on the delicate nature of the ladies during that time period?

Hello everyone. I got so busy on a consulting contract this week that I didn't tune in to the discussion after Sunday, the last time I poster. What a great discussion and what a lot one misses when they go away for even a few days! By reading your posts this morning, I leaned a lot, or at least learned about more potential interpretations of the first chapters of the novel than occurred to me on first reading it.

But I also spent some time reading ahead in the novel this week. It becomes even more fascinating as the story evolves and the characters are more fully developed. I fully agree with those who commented on various aspects of Stendal's characters. They are so real that one wants to sit them down and have a good talk with them in an attempt to "straighten them out." Bu they also are so real and like characters we all know that we also understand that "trying to straighten out" Julien or Madame Renal would do absolutely no good!

Right now, I'm going back to re read Chapter 8-12 so as to participate in this week's discussion of them. Will related questions like those for Chs. 1-7 be posted?

Road King: I'm taking this first part slowly too as there is so much content here to set us up for what is to come.

Ch 5 and the cryptic note Julien finds in the church.

I agree with you - this scene did not work for me either. Did Stendhal mean the message for the reader as a kind of foreshadowing? Was it some kind of evil portent for Julien? His action in crumpling the paper somehow jarred on me. Did he crumple it in anger? despair? Why didn't he leave it where it was? Was it really of no account -something to be tossed aside? And what about the 'pool of holy water/blood'? What does that really mean? Stendhal is giving us clues all along but I'm not always sure of their meaning.

And what a poor mixed up kid Julien is. The abusive family. the old surgeon, the treasure trove of books, Abbe Chelan - Rousseau, Napoleon and Latin. And then along comes Mme de Renal. Oh my!

Traude says he is an 'oddity' in his family. I expect that physically he takes after his mother and perhaps Pere Sorel is angry with him and beats him up because of that. Papa was at pains to get Julien the best deal for his employment with Renal so I guess that's a mark in Sorel's favour even though it was just his native cunning (shrewdness) at work.

If Julien doesn't have his father's brawn he knows many of his father's conniving tricks. He's just not so practiced in their use as yet but will probably use them in days to come.

Interestingly, I recently saw a customer review of this novel on Amazon that stated as a "fact" that the red symbolizes the clergy (the red of a cardinal's robe) and the black symbolizes the military (the black French military uniform like the ones posted earlier this week). That is the opposite of what I've usually seen in which the red is military and the balck is clergy. Maybe that interpretation accords better with the actual uniforms.

glencora--Thank you for doing the research on "elective affinities" and Goethe! Here's what you wrote, in part,

"'Elective affinities' is a phrase that has meaning in the world of natural sciences and Goethe imported it into the arena of human relations - the phrase refers to the unpredictable separations and realignments that may result when new personal encounters disturb an equilibrium.

That is very helpful at least to me. I was going to work on it myself and did for a little while when Joan asked the question. All I could come up with was that natural attractions exist and that a person may choose whether or not to act upon these attractions. But I do like the scientific use. It applies so well to the situation we have in the novel.

And I agree with Traude in her suggestion that Mme. de Renal's life was pretty monotonous. When the boys are turned over to a tutor, it will become even more monotonous. She is, I think, restless without even knowing that she is and her husband predictably says the same things, takes the same stances and is completely uninteresting to her.

Maryal

Chapter 3 (Raffel's translation): "[Madame de Renal] was, in short, an artless soul who had never so much as thought of passing judgment on her husband and admitting to herself that he bored her."

In Chap 7, "Elective Affinities," there are several clues about the state of the de Renal's marriage. First, when one of her sons had a fever, Madame was very upset, so she went to her husband to confide in him:

"When, in the early years of their marriage, the need to confide had driven her to intimations of this kind of distress to her husband, they had regularly been greeted by a burst of clumsy laughter, a shrugging of the shoulders, accompanied by some trivial maxim on the foolishness of women." (My italics. Translation by Roger Gard--Penguin)

So, early on Madame de Renal must have given up on receiving any comfort from her husband. She was dismissed as a foolish woman, worrying about things that didn't need to be worried about. Stendhal seems to me to really understand women, an unusual achievement for a male author at this time.

A couple of sentences later, still Gard's translation, I find this very sad sentence: "Her education was accomplished by sadness."

Maryal

I am glad so many of the recent posts discuss Mme de Renal. This woman is very interesting - such an innocent - a product of her times and her situation. According to the last sentence of Chapter 7, thanks to her ignorance (re love and being in love) she was "perfectly content and constantly preoccupied with Julien" and "was far from feeling the slightest self-reproach." I imagine Stendhal is saying that she was so innocent and ignorant she did not feel the slightest guilt at being a married woman and a mother with strong feelings for a person who was in her employ and was really not much more than a boy. (I couldn't find the age of Mme but the text does say that she was married at age 16 and her eldest son was 11 - so she is at least 27).

The problem is, of course, that innocence is not an excuse for one's actions and can actually lead to more trouble than if one acts knowingly and willfully. So we will see where this leads.

I also wanted to say something about Julien. He is such an adolescent - hypersensitive; self-centered; full of anxiety; ambitious to make money and make his place in the world; innocent yet wily; a victim of his emotional state which changes from moment to moment - he is a very exhausting character to keep up with.

Julien "...admired Madame de Renal's looks, but hated her for her beauty...."

This is partly because he has embarrassed himself by kissing her hand--a nice touch, the gauche teenager being made uncomfortable by his mistakes. But it's more than that. Beauty is a form of power, and I think the super-ambitious Julien resents power in others. Especially, though he doesn't realize it, he resents the power her beauty has over him.

When M.de Renal laughs at a dog that was killed by being run over by a cart it puts him in the lowest ring of Hell in my opinion. I can see why Madame can have no feeling for this brute. It is natural that without her realizing what is happening she is drawn to the sensitive Julien.

Irony first comes into my mind, but by chapter 7, I think we are watching a very staged drama with notes by a insightful narrator but more than that, I think the author is using this form for something else, to talk with us about the times perhaps and all France's changes. He is so obvious that there is something more going on, in terms of his intention. We admire his skill and relax into his hands.

And the somewhat 'stereotypic' characters, is this the common format at that time? (I am thinking of MiddleMarch when I ask that.)

zanybooks has pointed out that, "In Stendhal's writing, there is so much room for individual interpretation." I guess that's one of the qualities that has made this book so compelling for me. Through the years I've interpreted it differently each time I've read it. It's been almost like reading it again - for the first time.

It amuses me to imagine what Stendhal's reaction would be to our individual interpretations. I'm sure he would be gratified to know that his novel has endured and is so treasured. He was such a contrarian though, do you think he'd be too much of a disruptive challenge for us to deal with in our discussion group?

1. I wonder how this book was published, was it serial chapters?

2. Before tv, Internet, newspapers (everywhere), people formed their opinions and ideas in a much more isolated way and the strictures of society often did not provide much sharing of ideas. These characters reflect this limitation, as the author points out. Julian has many impulses and you can wonder where/if his ideas were formed.

Julien is certainly a study in Stendhal’ s ironic spoof on the ideal of “Romantic” love. In the Middle Ages, the lover is attracted toward the beauty, virtue, and the inaccessibility of a noble woman he desires but “not available.” What attracts the lover in this era is a kind of idolized passion with a moral twist. Julien’s personal reflections on his attractions toward Mm. de Renal are certainly intense but hardly our idea of passionate desire. Julien doesn’t seem to “fall in love,” as we know it, but rather his reflections seem to take the tone of a conquest rather than seduction. What is really motivating Julien when he describes is feelings? The motivations that fire his desires? To me they seem varied but totally self centered. Do you agree?

Bonjour mes amis!

A busy weekend, a very busy day yesterday kept me from you, but oh, what a pleasant surprise this morning - your wonderful posts! I so enjoy the conversation here.

You bring up such delicious points - and questions, I almost forgot to pull up the new questions you asked about, Diana. Will put them in the heading, and then comment on your questions from yesterday in an attempt to catch up with you all! I do hope you had a wonderful weekend! (We're still on the grandbaby watch - thought it would be Friday, but a false alarm. Quite distracting, please bear with me!)

Questions are up, now to yours...

We need some help with bbc's question. While it is true that many books were published in newspapers in serial form in France at this time, I'm fairly certain Stendhal's novels were not. His reputation at this time rested on his travel and art books, but his novels were not generally accepted - or appreciated. Times were different. People preferred the Romantic novels of Victor Hugo, Balzac. As Bern describes R&B - an "ironic spoof on the ideal of Romantic” love." If my memory serves, Stendhal had a difficult time getting his novel published - found one publisher but it was not well received - until the end of the century, after his death. I'm going to guess that only the popular fiction writers were published serially in the newspapers - to sell the papers!

Road King - we've had authors join us in some of our discussions from time to time - (not in the Great Books discussions, however

) - I can hardly imagine Stendhal's reaction if he were to participate with us!

Sometimes, in our discussions, I think we read more into a novel than what the author intended. I remember Karen Joy Fowler in our discussion of her "Jane Austin Book Club" was delighted with what we found - hadn't intended to write them, but agreed with the interpretations. I'm not sure about the impatient Stendhal!

Do you think Stendhal is introducing his characters slowly at first - as we are meeting them for the first time and forming opinions, first impressions. Zany notes there is so much room for individual interpretation. It remains to be seen if this holds up - once we get to know the characters better. As Diana points out - "It becomes even more fascinating as the story evolves and the characters are more fully developed." Will Stendhal let us interpret his characters for ourselves, or has will he do it for us?

bbc describes the story as "a very staged drama" - "using this form for something else, to talk with us about the times perhaps and all France's changes. He is so obvious that there is something more going on, in terms of his intention. We admire his skill and relax into his hands." I like the idea, bbc - of relaxing in his hands - but also agree it is fun interpreting our first impressions of his characters.

Diana, I've not seen the black referring to the army uniforms, but have seen the red associated with the Church. Though the French army uniform does look black, it was in fact a deep dark blue. Just this morning I read (somewhere) that the red referred to the bloodshed in war and the black the anarchy of the Church.

Do you suppose Stendhal will toss in references to the red and black throughout - and that he meant no one explanation for his use of these colors in the title? Perhaps he saw everything in red and black as some people see things in black and white? (Road King, I remember you read in his autobiography that Stendhal associated black with depression. Anarchy and depression were synonymous to Stendhal, no?)

What do you all think of bbc's question? Do you find the characters stereotypical? I find M. de Rênal very much so, but the others seem to be taking on individuality as we progress, do you agree?

boookworm - I see what you are seeing - a heartless "brute" deserving "the lowest rung of Hell" and can just imagine Madame's reaction to him! But we don't know why he is like he is. He's just a stereotypical brute at this point - in fine clothes.

Andy - you know an awful lot about the convent ladies of the time - sounds as if you have been there, done that! "Learning in the convent sequestered from the rest of the world, women were isolated and insulated." You help us understand why all the lessons Madame (what IS her first name???) learned in the convent school were irrelevant to her married state. Is she stereotypical?Maryal, do you see marriage as the sad, boring, monotonous existence for all the wives at the time? Stendhal seems to portray Madame de Rênal as somewhat different from the rest of the ladies in Verrières.

I agree with Andy - in the uncharted married state, it isn't surprising to me that she has no idea which road to choose, except to occupy herself with her children.

As Gum and Traudee point out - Julien is an "oddity" - and anything but stereotypical. But Glencora describes him as - "hypersensitive; self-centered; full of anxiety; ambitious to make money and make his place in the world; innocent yet wily; a victim of his emotional state which changes from moment to moment," Is he a stereotype after all? Eloise, I am beginning to understand Julien's reactions to most of his acquaintances when looking at him as an adolescent who has been through a rough time in his young life.

Gum, a great question! I've been thinking about what you and others have said about the scene in the church not working for them. To me, the outstanding question is why he's in the church in the first place. Finding the announcement of an execution on the lectern shouldn't have been so troubling to him - but the fact that he saw his own name in the anagram got him so upset, he crumpled it up, taking it for an omen. I thought it was too much of a coincidence...the anagram. But now you ask who the message was meant for, the reader or Julien? What do the rest of you think? Surely Julien got the message - did Stendhal mean to plant it in our minds too? Is bloodshed in Julien's future?

This morning we look closer into the strange workings in the hearts and "the boy." Bern asks what is motivating Julien's passion? I'm wondering if there is passion there at all - other than to be a great man like Napoleon. Bern notes that "his reflections seem to take the tone of a conquest rather than seduction."

PatH sees him resenting the power her beauty has over him. Does he see it as a distraction? Does he resent anyone having power over him? Clearly she has his attention - does she know this? All she has his hand! Does Julien want any more than her submission in holding his hand?

If her maid hadn't fallen for Julien, do you think their relationship would have gone any further than handholding?

Here's a quote from Chap. 7 of Stendhal's autobiography that might be pertinent to our discussion of Julien's character.

"Until I was twenty-five, nay even today, I often have to grip myself with both hands in order not to be completely swayed by the impression things make on me, and to be able to judge them rationally, on the basis of experience."

Julien has a goal (get out of town and get rich) and a plan to reach that goal (become a priest). At age 19 though, with little formal education and a retarded social consciousness, he like Stendhal, tends to be "completely swayed by . . . impressions". Combining his sensitive nature and imaginative intellect with his lack of sophistication, he tends to make his life too complicated for himself. He is clever, though. Maybe I'm just too simple to appreciate his manipulations.

Julien is like a rare bloom that manages to appear, against all odds, in a barren wasteland . What things nourish him? Books by Napoleon and Rousseau, the beauty of nature, a few men who are themselves "oddballs".and now, a beautiful woman.

In the latest chapters he seems to be bouncing from feeling to feeling. So unsure of himself and where to pour the passion of his youth. (Have we forgotten how passionate youth can be?). We are watching a strange yet engaging character emerge from his chryssallis.

Most important were the words in chapter 8 when he speaks to the Cure Chelan who talks to him in a caring and truthful way. The author states "Julien was ashamed of his emotion; he found himself loved for the first time in his life..."

Nineteen and the first time he has felt loved. How hungry he must be for that feeling. How confused as to what love and passion really are. Stendhal is letting us watch the emergence of a great literary character. It is wonderful !

Judy

So many excellent thoughts, reactions and relevant questions, and so much material for this week ! I have a hard time keeping up with reading alone, what with continuing in the "Snow" discussion and preparing for a meeting of the local book group tomorrow, among other things.
Here in haste some responses.

As JOAN said, we don't know whether R&B was published in serialized form, but we do now it was true for Balzac, who used to write feverishly day and night to stay one step ahead of his creditors.

Without any means of communication other than actual presence at an event, in the countryside or in Paris, later in Italy and in the army, we have to assume, this is what Stendahl had to draw on.

Though only six years old when the Revolution broke out, he must have been a keen obser early. He is said to have "jumped up and down" when he heard that Louis XVI was dead.

As we already know, he left Grenoble for Paris at the first opportunity and within a short time joined Napoleon's Italian Campaign with a commission as Lieutenant in th3 Dragoons. Napoleon was still a general at that time. Stendahl liked the army and social life in Milan but abandoned it in 1802 to make his way in Paris.

In 1806 he ran out of money and rejoined the army. He carried out diplomaic missions and took part in (by then Emperor) Napoleon's fateful Russian campaign in 1812. In 1814, after the fall of Napoleon, Stendhal returned to Italy where he spent seven years writing.

In 1821 he was expelled from Italy, on orders by Austrian Prince Metternich who had played an important role during the Congress of Vienna, when the land Napoleon had conquered and occupied was redistributed.

Conveniently by then, in 1821, the ban against followers of Napoleon (of whom Stendhal surely was one) had just been lifted and he returned to Paris. Consider this with regard to question # 2 for this week.

When Lois Philippe, the "citizen king", ascended to the throne in 1830, Stendhal again became French Consul, first and briefly in Trieste, which belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and from there was swiftly transferred to Cività Vecchia not far from Rome, where he lived until his death.

Under the ancien régime the French realm had three estates ,

The first estate (le Premier État) was the Clergy.

(The King was outside the estate system. Louis XIV, le Roi Soleil = the Sun King, said "L'état c'est moi" = I'm the State.)

The clergy, traditionally divided into the "higher" and the "lower" clergy, numbered around 100,000 in 1789, and (only!) 10% of those were in the "higher" category. (Did you notice what career choices our "depotic mayor" made for his three sons ?)

France followed the law of primogeniture, which meant that the family wealth would automatically pass to the first-born son. Hence the clergy became a suitable alternative for younger sons.

The Second estate (le Deuxième État) was the nobility, with different categories.

The Third Estate (le Tiers-État) consisted of the commoners - in short, everybody else.

Julien is a product of his time. He is unhappy in Verrières (and who could blame him ?), wanting to improve his situation in any way possible. The clergy seemed the only way out, even if he could hardly expect to get into the "higher" group. He was thin-skinned, insecure and was prone to tempers, but as we see, he too was an attentive observer. We do find out that he doesn't believe any of the things in the NT he had so laboriously memorized.

He sensed that something was "fueling", or contributing to, the wealth of M. de R. and M. Valenod (who so obviously compete with each other). In Chapter 2 we realize that there may be good reason behind their anger at the visit from M. Appert and the firing of Curé Chélan, a man of integrity, who must have known what wa amiss.

There is some irony in the description of Valenod as a "successful" superintendent of the workhouse. If that success was financial and perhaps came surprisingly fast, someone in Paris must have caught on. This is where hypocrisy comes in, when virtues are proclaimed but actions are totally different.

Indeed, the Mayor's "despotism" seems to go far beyond his arbitrary order that the planes be pruned at regular intervals.

He thinks of his sons, I believe, more as trophies I would say, and cannot be bothered when they are under the weather. These are his plans for the sons:

The eldest, he had decided, would go in the army, while the second would become a judge, and he third a priest." . (chapter 3)

A comprehensive tableau emerges slowly and Julien is not the only actor on the stage. I think Mme. de R's first name is "Louise".

Sorry, must dash

Young Julien tends towards extremes of emotions, typical of a teenager. His emotions include hatreds. Per our narrator, Julien feels he hates and abhors "that good society into which he has been admitted...at the bottom of the table, a circumstance which perhaps explained his hate and his abhorrance."

Julien is disgusted by visitors who "respect and grovel" before M. de Renal "who has almost doubled and trebled his fortune since he has administered the poor fund." Julien bets to himself Renal makes a profit from money intended towards orphans "whose misery is even more sacred than that of others."

No wonder he feels so. Julien compares himself to an orphan, "a foundling," because of how he was hated by his father and brothers.

Julien, like M. de Renal, wants to make his fortune. It will be interesting to see how he uses people, as do people he despises, in his climb to success.

The wisdom of the old priest and the (understandable) callowness and immaturity of Julien are outstanding features of Chapter 8. How wise of the priest to pick up on Julien's real desires so clearly! And Julien's reaction to Eliza and her "proposal" certainly make it hard to like him. Apparently a "fortune of 1000 francs (I assume that is an income per annum) is not enough, at least not coupled with the comparatively low status that might come with marriage to a former chambermaid. Though Eliza is very unhappy now, I think she would have been even more unhappy married to Julien as he never would have been satisfied and doesn't seem capable, at least now so far, of actually loving a woman for herself, apart from the status and power she represents.

I found myself wondering what that income would compare to today--can anyone "translate" it for us?

I thought it was interesting that the good priest Chelan encouraged Julien to marry for money. But I suppose that was the times. It was through this discussion that Chelan discovered Julien's ambitions. The old priest told him we make our fortune either in this world or in the next. He "trembled" for Julien's salvation as a priest. This was the emotional moment when Julien felt loved for the first time in his life.

---------------------------------------------------

I just loved reading about the developing affair between Julien and Mme de Renal. It was very amusing. The two have absolutely nothing to say to each other for some time. They just have periods of awkward silences when together. Poor Madame is so jealous over Elisa. Then in the beauty of the countryside and the mountains, they discover a topic of conversation to share - butterflies!

All goes well until Julien goes on the attack. His advances in the art of love are like a battle plan. The first strategic point to conquer is the HAND. He will reach his goal when the hand is not removed when he touches it! Julien's battle plan removes the pleasure of love from his heart.

Just a quick reply.
True, they have nothing to say to each other because Julien's father and his brawny brothers understood only brute force and corporal punishment, i.e the power of brawn over brain. Julien was beaten for reading, for being able to read !! How appalling!

Mme de R, on the other hand, had a "conventional" upbringing, conventional, that is, for the daughters of the moneyed. She was probably taught also how to manage servants, how to entertain - always to do honor to her husband, and only in his reflection - and how to make polite conversation.

Julien had no idea what "conversation" was. How he could he ? How can he be faulted for looking out for himself ? That's the firs human instinct, self-preservation.

Stendhal introduced posterity to two very unlikely lovers. Seen from the perspective of our cynical century where anything goes, there is no eroticism present in the story so far. Julien has no "practice" and Mme de R married at 16 (!) has never known love, or even affection, only duties performed willingly enough as a given.

Yes Marni, he actually planned the conquest of Madame de Renal like Napoleon would plan an attack. In the Postface, I read: "Stendhal wrote the recipe that guarantees a lover's success: "If you find yourself alone with a woman, I give you five minutes to prepare yourself for the prodigious effort of telling her: "I love you". Tell yourself: "I am a coward if I have not told her that within five minutes". It doesn't matter what countenance you have nor on what terms you will make the compliment. It is sufficient that the ice be broken and that you are very determined to hate yourself is you lack heart." My translation.

Julien had definite plans for everything he wanted to conquer including woman. He was surprised that she loved him. Seeing himself projected in high society, he was now determined to use every weapon at his disposal to get where he wanted. He must have known the terrible consequence an affair with Madame would have, yet he needed the challenge of the conquest and used every opportunity to go ahead with his plan just the same.

The mayor was blind to what was going on because all his energy was used for the pursuit of wealth and power.

Chapter X second page

After the Mayor offers him a better salary for fear of loosing Julien to Mr. Valenod, Julien says to himself: "I have won a battle. Imagine a young boy winning a battle, not only did he win Madame's heart, but he received an increase in salary of 50 francs per month. (I would say that it would be the equivalent of $200 a month) considering his servant's position and it was good because he was lodged, fed and clothed. If I remember, Madame de Renal's fortune was immense compared to that.

So instead of feeling inferior, our Julien now can feel he is on top of the situation on both fronts, Mr AND Madame de Renal. Poor Eliza would not have been happy with Julien, she was not his type.

Stendhal has this uncanny ability to know the mind of his subjects, he even understood how a woman like Madame de Renal felt.

Diana and Marni both can feel the affection the old priest has for Julien. He wisely counsels him trying to make him see the downside of the priesthood; the treading on the poor, the kissing up to elite and the contemptible suffering he would be forced to endure in the priesthood. Why does he give him three days (3) TO PONDER THE CHOICE? Is that significant? Does it refer to the Holy Trinity or am I reading too much into this fact? Which will J. choose- the fortunes of today world or the glory of the next world? That’s an easy one.

He’s having the time of his life in Vergy. He is experiencing and enjoying the fruits of youth, organizing and watching the completion of the building of the walkway that encircles the orchard. He is chasing the butterflies, reading whenever he opts to and has no-one to fear. He is adored by the women and is king of the mountain. He’s loving it
until-the hand-
He senses that first taste of rejection, making him feel inferior, again a second-class citizen.

What are we to make of Julien's feeling that he "must" conquer Mm de Renal--beginning with holding her hand--that it somehow is his duty? Even when he fully succeeds in his conquest of her (though at times I wondered who conquered whom!), he at first can't enjoy it for feeling that he somehow failed in "practice" of his duty. Is this just Julien's immaturity or is it more closely related to his broader "plan" for making a place forhimself in society?

And is there more to Juliens's concerns about his "practice" than the first-time jitters of a virgin?

Eloise is correct. Julien senses any woman "an enemy with whom he was required to do battle." He plotted each move, as Napoleon did and saw it as a duel as he considered the heavy clouds: :A storm seemed to be coming." The advance! The fear was great, his courage strong, he was not going to be beaten in battle. He didn't retreat as he planned his strategic moves to reach the advantage.

He relished in his victory as she surrendered the hand to him.

He had done his duty, performed a heroic act.
Then he celebrated by cloistering himself in his room and immersed himself in his heroes' exploits with a new pleasure. He sees himself the victor!

Diana, I think that the only duty Julien feels is his duty to himself.

Here's a little discovery I found amusing this afternoon. The French word for glass (a drinking glass) is "le verre"...I had my French dictionary on hand - and decided to look up "le verre" to see if there was any connection at all to "Verrières" - and found this-

"glass stand, glass case, glass frame.

I immediately thought of those little glass boxes - and then, glass houses. Remember the tyranny of gossip in small towns from the first chapter? I thought of the old saying - "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Do you think Stendhal was familiar with this and it had something to do with choosing the name for this fictitious town? It would certainly apply to the good citizens of Verrières - each living in his/her own glass house!

Thank you, Road King for bringing us Stendhal's admission that he has to grip himself "with both hands in order not to be completely swayed by the impression things make on him, and to be able to judge them rationally, on the basis of experience." I thought this tendency was due to Julien's youth and lack of experience, but maybe it is a character trait in him that we will see throughout.

Traudee, I'd been wondering why Julien panicked at the thought of M. de Rênal discovering Napoleon's portrait in his bedding. Why would he be "ruined?" You write that the ban against followers of Napoleon has been lifted recently. I'm guessing he knows Rênal supports the monarchy - more importantly so does the Church - and he has outwardly chosen the Church.

Did you notice that Rênal now has only two sons, Adolphe and Stanislaus. The eldest is still with us...what happened to the third - was he the one destined for the Church?

"Louise" - her name is Louise. I wonder if Julien knows this yet? Did you notice how irritated he became when she asked him if there was more to his name than Julien Sorel? What was that about?

Marni - perhaps it would be easier to identify those Julian does not "abhor" - you could do it on one hand!

Wasn't it interesting that the old priest expressed such delight at Julien's "good fortune" when Elisa confessed that she wanted to marry him - even before hearing of Julien's disdain for the proposal? Why do you think he was happy at the idea of losing Julien, Marni? He was deeply wounded by the fact that he was turned out of his parish after 56 years, wasn't he? Do you suppose that was the reason? He is disillusioned with the priesthood? Is that what you mean by "the times?"

Attacking the enemy -

Julien is just dallying with Madame, isn't he? They have nothing to talk about - but butterflies. (Did you notice what he is doing to the butterflies?) Nothing but the butterflies - and the beauty they notice in the faces of the other. No eroticism - no physical attraction at this point - as Traudee points out - so what is the attraction then? Is it simply that Julien wants to feel superior to a woman he knows to be his superior? He seems to be learning more than Napolean has to each him, Eloise

Andy - do you think Julien senses "an woman is an enemy" - or any woman who is his superior. He wouldn't have wanted to do battle with Elisa for example, would he? "He relished in his victory as she surrendered the hand to him." It was funny, wasn't it? He was victorious! This fine lady has submitted to him!

Diana - first time jitters of a virgin had something to do with it - but consider who the first time lady was!

Judy - that was probably the most profound passage so far - Julien's realization that the priest is more concerned about his future happiness and his salvation. And he was "ashamed" at the emotion he felt at feeling love. He is unable to tell his true feelings to the only person who has ever loved him. Wow! Thanks for the post - I intend to sit back and enjoy the emergence of this great literary character - and stop criticizing him!

Poor Elisa - she goes to talk to the priest every day and every day she returns in tears. 1000 francs per annum to keep Julien from his destiny. I don't know how much that was back then, Diana - but I don't think it was the money at all.

I'm not sure why Julien turned down Fouque's offer to take him on as his partner. Julien says it is because he does not want to get bogged down for 7 or 8 years and he sees that Fouque is looking for someone to be not only a partner but a "comrade who will never leave him." (is there a hint of homosexuality here?) Julien wants to (like Napoleon) perform great deeds - make his mark in the world - make the "well-born" sit up and take notice. In Chapter 12 the narrator states that "The young peasant saw nothing between himself and the most heroic actions, save lack of opportunity." Julien is fearful that if he takes Fouque's offer he will have missed his opportunity and not have the courage and zeal to perform his heroic actions. Toward the end of Chapter 12 it states that he sees the choice (of whether to accept Fouque's offer) as "between the mediocrity consequent on assured well-being and all the heroic dreams of his youth."

I see all this as Julien over-dramatizing - as is his wont. Why doesn't Julien see as one of his choices the possibility of being Fouque's partner for a year or two or three - amassing the money he needs to go to Paris (more apparently than he would make at the de Renals) - and then leaving Fouque. Of course, that would change the story and whatever is going to happen next with Mme. de Renal.

But then what was the episode with Foque all about - just to emphasize to the reader how vital Julien's ambitions and dreams are to him? And to make clearer his inner conflict - interesting that even though money has seemed to important to him up to this point (wanting first to be a soldier and then to be a priest when he saw that soldiering was on the wane and priests on the rise and able to make more money) he now is opting for the fulfillment of his dreams rather than the money offered by Foque or by Elisa.

JoanP: Re "Why do you think he was happy at the idea of losing Julien, Marni?" I'm not sure where you found this in my post. I didn't say Chelan was happy. I believe he felt just the opposite regarding Julien's going into the priesthood because Chelan understood now that Julien was ambitious. Chelan was now trying to talk Julien OUT of going into the priesthood.

Glencora: I thought Fouque was Julien's very good friend. He lived in the mountains where Julien felt a sense of freedom. They could talk easily together. I didn't get any feeling of homosexuality at all. In fact, Fouque had had a number of affairs, it seemed, with women. I thought he needed help with his business. He told Julien that he (Julien) was better at numbers than he was. He needed help with the financials of the business. Also, he couldn't keep up with it all himself. He didn't want to partner up with just anyone.

Julien said he didn't want to agree to be a partner and then leave Fouque. He didn't want to hurt him. Here, finally, is another person that Julien loves.

I am wondering if we are watching/reading this book through our 2007 eyes. (Of course, we are) For me, I think the class restrictions are so defining of the characters, like straight jackets which they inhabit and act out their roles...this is why I used the term 'stereotypic' - like an ancient Asian epic where everyone knows the story and yet is watching the performance keenly.

I have such a sense of foreboding about Julien and the wife which deepens chapter by chapter. Yet I am trying to shift back and understand their world. It is an odd feeling which I think the author deliberately provokes to tease and engage us.

I've been avidly following everyone's posts and enjoying them immensely!

I notice a few foreshadowings of the violence that we know by our introduction is going to appear later in the story: chapter 9-- Madame Derville says to M.Renal - "your Julien is very violent.." chapter 10 (end) Julien, standing on his immense rock, observing a hawk and S. writes that he "envied the strength of the bird of prey." chapter 12, on his way to Fouque's home, he is mountain climbing and is "concealed like a bird of prey...

Surely not a coincidence that S. uses the phrase "bird of prey" twice within a few pages? Are we to think of Julien as a predator?

Chapter 9 reads a bit like theater, or maybe opera. There are two scenes, in particular, that strained credulity until I decided that Stendhal was having fun with us, his readers.

1. Julien plans to hold Madame de Rênal’s hand when they take the night air together. He worries all day that his courage might fail him at the decisive moment. Night falls and the moment comes. Stendhal writes that Julien “found, almost by accident, the blind courage which was sufficient for action”. In fact, Julien’s courage was no accident. Stendhal had seated the tentative lovers under a huge lime tree that had been planted by Charles THE BOLD.

2. Julien has written love notes on the back of Napolean’s portrait which he keeps hidden in his mattress! Can Stendhal be serious with this extraordinary revelation of Julien’s affections? He sends Madame de Renal to remove the portrait. Is this a kind of rehearsal for Julien to eventually get Madame de Renal to be a replacement for Napolean in his bed?

Maribeth: You reminded me of something when you brought up the image of Julien as a bird of prey.....

In the SeniorNet discussion of John James Audubon: The Making of an American by Richard Rhodes, we read that the painting of "Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard" by Jacques-Louis David influenced Audubon when he painted his "Golden Eagle." I couldn't help but think of that when I read your post.

Here is David's "Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard": http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/david/st-bernard.jpg

Here is Audubon's "Golden Eagle": http://www.mcq.org/audubon/catalogue/images/audubon_181.jpg

I don't believe Julien wanted to work with Fougue because it was a job in commerce - like his father. He has higher ambitions, has had a taste of the upper class life, and I view him as a calculating con artist in the making.

Marni, thank you. I remember that discussion. My feelings for Julien are so mixed up. At this point I feel sorry for him. As long as he holds so much resentment, bitterness, anger in his heart, he will never know love. He will find himself in some sort of exile just like his hero, Napoleon. Is Julien smart enough to know all heroes have a weakness, a flaw?

"If I want their esteem and my own, I must show them...that my heart is a hundred miles away from their insolence, in a sphere so high up that it's out of reach of their petty marks of disdain or favour."

If I am not mistaken, Fouque sees Julien as a man worth knowing, a man worth having as a friend. What attributes are familiar to Fouque that I am missing? Julien does hate to turn down Fouque's offer. He does not want to hurt his friend. So, that is a worthy character trait. Stendahl likens the two men to Homeric heroes. Would someone explain this description? I am not familiar with the classics. If I missed a post, please point me to it.

Good morning, hats - bon matin!

Join the club! We seem divided in our feelings towards Julien. If his anger, bitterness and deviousness are due to adolescence and inexperience, we can forgive him. If we are seeing character traits that he will never outgrow - will take through life - well, I guess we can still feel sorry for him - and pity anyone who loves him! As you say, he will never know love and "will find himself in a sort of exile, just like his hero, Napoleon." A loner. Is he smart enough to know all heroes have a flaw, you ask? I wonder the same about Stendhal. It's one thing to recognize the weakness, another to do something about it!

I'm looking at Abbé Chélan a bit differently this morning - more as a trusted confessor to the town - to Elisa, to Julien - to the Rênals too? He is not so much a sponsor eagerly encouraging Julien to enter the priesthood, but a trusted condidant. Marni - at first I couldn't understand why the priest was delighted at Elisa's confession that she wanted to marry Julien. The priest couldn't wait to tell Julien the news. He thought it was an option!

I agree with you - he understands Julien's plans to better himself - but I think he knew that before Julien nixed the idea of marrying Elisa. I don't think he understood just how amibitious he was.

Yesterday Diana observed that the priest is the one person who loves Julien - and yet Julien is unable to open up to him. He must continue to deceive him if he is to advance - get into the priesthood. The irony here is that Julien knows the priest sees through him!

Does Julien have anyone to whom he can open up? Is there anyone who really knows him - and accepts him?

Road King - Stendhal might be having fun with us - I admit the handholding battle amusing - and funny - but sense trouble on the horizon -

bbc - "I have such a sense of foreboding about Julien and the wife which deepens chapter by chapter." Where can this be going if not to a dangerous conclusion? Do you really think it Is just a matter of Stendhal just playing with us and that those of us who worry are reading too much into it? I worry for Madame, more than for Julien right now. She has more to lose. I read with much interest as Madame comes to the realization that this pleasant time with Julien might be "adultery." Are they "playing" with fire? Maribeth sees - "foreshadowings of violence." "Are we to think of Julien as a predator," Maribeth asks?

Is it jealousy - is it fear that Julien might return Elisa's affection that stokes Madame's interest in Julien? She really believed that the portrait in his bed was that of a woman, didn't she? I can't believe she didn't peek to see the face before handing it to him. Road King, I'd forgotten that Julien had written "love notes"on the cardboard mounting. I went back and read that passage. The notes were dated - he had just written of his admiration for Napoleon the previous day. What would have been M. de Rênal's reaction if he had found that Julien admired Napoleon? Worse than if he'd found a portrait of his wife in Julien's bed?

This section of reading was like watching a comedy of errors. I was glad to see that Marni and Road King are finding amusement too. The part I found most hilarious was that Madame de Renal was convinced that the portrait in Julien’s mattress was of the woman that he loved, yet it was a portrait of Napoleon! This misconception by Madame de Renal then caused her to act coldly toward Julien, which Julien then misinterpreted and acted rashly. I am chuckling while typing this! I don’t think that Stendhal wrote this expecting his readers to laugh. I think he wanted us to feel danger, a close call on Julien being exposed in his hypocrisy, and then wanted us to ponder the class differences again.

Road King, as a point of clarification, I thought that the love notes that Julien wrote on the back of the portrait were in praise of Napoelon.

Alf asked in post #155, “Why does he give him three days (3) TO PONDER THE CHOICE? Is that significant? Does it refer to the Holy Trinity or am I reading too much into this fact?”

I noticed that Julien went away for three days to visit Fouque. Are these the same three days? I don’t think so. If they are not the same three days, then three days in which to ponder decisions seems to have been used twice, but I don’t know why.

Hi there , Marni - thanks for the links - tell me more what you know of eagles. Predators...loners? Is Stendhal purposely portraying Julian as an eagle?

I was happy to see that Julien does have a friend from school - he's not a total social loner. Remember Julien stashed his books with him when he left home before moving to the Rênals' home. Glencora - it seems to me that Julien realizes Fouqué is needy - in need of a friend who will stay with him. The money is tempting though, isn't it? But as you say, his dreams are bigger than this mediocre job. Marni points out that Fouqué is coming off a failed love affair - and is giving up on women. There's a footnote in the Norton Critical that tells of Fouqué -

"The original of Fouqué was an acquaintance of Stendhal's youth, Francois Bigillion, who was generous and open-hearted but killed himself when his wife deceived him."

Glencora asks what the episode was all about? I think I'll go with your second option - money is important but priests make more money...more than he'd make with Fouqué or by marrying Elisa. Or how about a third reason? kidsal points out - Julien might look down on a career in "commerce" - it's beneath him. Marni I agree, Julien really didn't want to hurt Fouqué - I agree with hats - this is a positive character trait - is the first time he cares enough about another person that he wants to avoid hurting him?

hats - I missed the reference to Homeric heros - see if this helps explain it -

"The notion of personal honor is prevalent throughout the Iliad. The honor of every person in Homeric culture was important, but to the hero, his honor was paramount. He could not endure insults, and he felt that he had to protect his reputation—even unto death. The hero’s duty was to fight, and the only way he had of gaining glory and immortality was through heroic action on the battlefield; thus, he continually prepared his life for the life-and-death risks of battle.

The Homeric hero believed that men had to stand together in battle; men had to respect each other; and they had to refrain from excessive cruelty. This last condition was critically important for the Homeric hero. He loathed deliberate acts of cruelty and injustice. If he were ready to kill a victim, he believed that he should do it quickly; he was not to mutilate him, as Achilles does with Hektor’s body. By following this code, a hero gained a sense of dignity and a reputation for honor that would ensure his place in the social memory of his community.

LauraD: I was just laughing over the very same thing while I was in the shower washing my hair! This whole section had some very very funny moments. I'm thinking that Stendahl must have meant it to be humorous. There is just so much there to smile about.

As you mention, the series of misinterpretations by the pair, one thing after another after another. And the 2 innocents, although Julien, I'm sure, would not want anyone to think he was an innocent. Neither one had had the slightest personal experience with love. Mme had read a couple of novels. (Horrors!) Julien had picked up a few pointers from Napoleon and from Fouque. Other than that, they were on their own amidst jealousies, a bit of competition, moments of self-confidence, many moments of doubt, not knowing or trusting each other at all.

And with Julien's battle campaign on top of everything! His step by step advance from pressing the HAND in darkness, to kissing it, to kissing the arm, then the stolen kiss in the hallway practically on top of M. de Renal! Julien is daring himself to advance. It is his DUTY! Yet, that hand, that pretty arm, the dress....they are calling to him. It is not all duty.

JoanP: I agree! I can't imagine NOT looking at the portrait from under the mattress! Mme did promise, however. She is really very good, isn't she, despite having an affair right under her husband's nose.

Hello there, chuckling Laura

- Marni

too! I get a real kick out of the misunderstandings between Julien and Madame. They really are funny - maybe because they are so unpredictable?

Three days? I think they are three different days - gosh, you are all reading so closely - and coming up with great stuff I'm missing! I'll bet there is something to the fact that Julien needs to take off three days and then Fouqué gives him three days to think about the offer. I'll bet it's biblical - Stendhal has memorized the New Testament, remember?

Jesus taught in the temple for three days
Jesus promised to rebuild the temple after three days
Jesus in the tomb for three days

Can't wait to hear from you - I'm sure someone will think of an explanation!

Marni - I don't think we fully appreciate how high the sentiments are running at the time - against Napoleon. Those who have done well financially because they are supporting the throne do not wish to risk the return of the liberals - they stand to lose too much. What seems odd to me - Julien wishes to make a fortune by joining the priesthood, the Church supports the throne. But aren't his true sentiments with Napoleon - with the army? Does it come down to a choice between the noble profession of the army or the wealth of the Church?

If Julien is found out as a supporter of Napoleon, he's out of there, right?

LauraD, I laughed out loud reading the eight and ninth chapters. I think Stendhal laughed too thinking anyone would take this seriously, but I agree with you that he wanted to expose the class differences and what made it different like all the hypocrisy that had to happen if one wanted to rise above it's station.

Mind you holding the hand of a high society married woman hand in the dark was a dangerous game at the time, but Stendhal perhaps wanted to send quite another message. The Mayor said: "Who does this little peasant think he is?"

To me Julien is still too young, 20ish to really know what love is. Right now, he wants what the Aristocracy has and is groping around trying to find out how by what means he could get there. Of course the poor boy is going to get burnt playing 'adult' games he still has to learn. A Con Artist in the making? Maybe. I think he is playing at the Napoleon game of conquest. He reminds me of teenagers today trying very hard being adults and sometimes not succeeding very well.

It all reminds me of my kids when they were teenagers having high dreams, making mistakes, being forgiven, trying again and losing again until age taught them a lesson they couldn't ignore.

Speaking of humor ladies, how about this one? ”The offer (Fouque’s) did not please Julien; it got in the way of his craziness.” Boy I understand that comment.

In the shadow of the great rocks (used only by goatherds) he separated himself from all other men. The boy is grandiose with his lofty ambitions as he watches the "birds of prey in isolation with quiet powerful movements."
The eagle is the symbol of greatness. The eagle has been used by many nations as a national symbol, depicting power, beauty and independence.
In some cultures it is a sacred bird.
The Torah compares God, himself, to an eagle in Deutoronomy.
How far can Stendhal take this comparison?

In my version of the book Julien said he was 18 in the first section. I don't think much time has gone by. He's still a teenager.

Alf: Another thing that adds humor for me is Mme Derville, Mme de Renal's friend and apparent chaperone. She is more sophisticated than Mme de Renal. She is no fool! Perhaps she has had her own affairs. She sees her friend blush when Julien walks into the room. She is noticing the hanky panky. She knows what is going on in the darkness outside. In fact, Mme Derville is quite astounded at how clumsy Julien is at his love-making.

I love Stendahl's line: "Julien, who had never had a mistress in his whole life, but yet insisted on playing the role of a Don Juan, made a shocking fool of himself all day."

JoanP, thank you for the information about the "Homeric Heroes." You gave more than enough information. I also see "Hercules" mentioned. All I remember about Hercules in the movies is his strength. Here, Stendahl compares and contrasts Julien's choices.

"Like Hercules he found himself with a choice--not between vice and virtue, but between the unrelieved mediocrity of guaranteed well-being, and all the heroic dreams of his youth."

Eloise, I see what you are saying about Julien. Julien is somewhat like any teenager. I can think of my boys as teenagers. All teenagers have a feeling that you must grow up quickly and experience the world and all of its choices or you will miss out. This is why Julien is afraid to stay with Fouque. He will waste time going after his dream.

In a way, I am reminded of Don Quixote. Maybe Julien is also following an impossible dream. In "ulien's mind"is the Napoleonic Era somewhat like the Golden Age we read about in Don Quixote?

For some reason, I felt softer toward Julien while he was in the grotto in the mountains with the sunset. "On the third day Julien said goodbye to his friend early in the morning in order to spend the day amid the crags on the high mountain peak." In Julien, there is an appreciation of nature. Nature might play a part in bringing Julien to maturity. I am reminded of the Doubs River painting shown by Eloise in the beginning, so beautiful. I love the three day religious comparison. It's also interesting to learn about Stendahl's Fouque having an affair and committing suicide.

LauraD, I laughed to at those same parts in the book.

I've just tuned in to today's discussion and found everyone's posts terrific. I especially agree with the comedy of errors in Chs, 8 and 9--I looked back and see that I noted "comedy of errors, almost slapstick" in my copy the first time I read that part! And yes, I think Julien most certainly would have lost his job if M de Renal found his picture of Napoleon, at a minimum. I found it almost unbelievable that Mm de Renal would have avoided looking at the picture, but she really comes across as an innocent, almost "goody two shoes" at this point. By Chapter 9 and on, though, I'm getting the impression that the extreme innocence of both parties in the love affair is about to come to a screeching halt!

As things get more serious, I wonder if Stendhal will be able to keep up the underlying humor. (I confess to having read ahead but only 15 chapters or so, and I'm not among those who have read this novel before.) Stendhal's writing is so good though that I find I pick up more and more as I reread a chapter, even without having read your posts. And of course your comments point out things I likely never would note just from reading the text. This is the first book discussion I've participated in, and I'm glad I started with such a good one! (Pardon the gushing, that really is out of character for me!)

I apologize for an off-point comment, but is Stendhal's Charterhouse of Parma as rewarding as this novel--I'm sure some of you have read that one also. I bought it some time ago, but found it difficult to get into.

Joan, you say: "Is it simply that Julien wants to feel superior to a woman he knows to be his superior? He seems to be learning more than Napolean has to each him, Eloise" Superior, in what way? He has more savvy that she, perhaps because she was a coddled child raised in a close loving family where Julien had already learned deception and manipulation before he met her. She was a dutiful, OK bored housewife, and she was caught by surprise when she she fell in love for Julien and it made her feel guilty at first.

Fouque didn't offer Julien more than easy money, who had much higher goals and he felt confident he could reach as high as his hero N.

Aren't we all playing Psychologists, I love to read what everybody thinks. Interesting discussion Joan.

Eloise and Joan,

By this point in the novel, I'm not entirely sure what Julien's goal is, as he sees it. He says it is the clergy, even after Father Chelan tries to dissuade him, but he has a great, if hidden, admiration for Napoleon and presumably the military in general. Is he just too immature to straighten out that glaring conflict (clergy=monarchy; Napoleon = liberals, I think)? Or is he clinging to clergy as he sees that as the way to make more money or perhaps as the place he'd have a chance. Would it be possible for a boy from his background with no money to get into the military in some way that could lead him eventually to officer rank? (I'm sure Julien doesn't see himself as a foot soldier!) In England at that time, wealthy men bought commissions in the army or navy. How was that handled in France?

Reminds me in its erotic intensity of the film, The Piano, and our first exposure to Holly Hunter's ankle.

I have been trying to figure out if I "like" Julien. I have decided that I do like him (at least so far in the book) for the following reasons.

He is a young man with dreams and aspirations (to make his mark in the world - to perform great deeds like his hero, Napoleon). He is trying to mold himself into the person he wants to be. I think when he talks about his "duty" (to hold Mme's hand, for example) he is talking about his duty to himself - to set a goal and to achieve it - to prove to himself that he can do what he sets out to do. When he is all excited to see Mme at the beginning of Chapter 12 and she meets him with coldness he berates himself "Will I never grow up? When will I acquire the sensible custom of giving these people my soul only in proportion to what they pay for it?" And he resolves once more to stay aloof and apart - to stay on the right track - to become the person he wants to become - to appear in the world as he wants to appear. At the beginning of Chapter 8, after his discussion with the Cure - he cries but then he is ashamed of his crying and he states "In the future I will rely only on those parts of my character I have tested" He is again trying to become the person he envisions himself to be. And in turning down Fouque's offer - even though he feels bad for his friend - once more he is evading a trap that he thinks will divert him from his destined greatness. And I think he keep going back to his book because he needs the book's inspiration and support to continue on his course.

Of course, I see his manipulativeness and deceitfulness as he tries to wend his way through his circumstances, but I am touched by the fact that he has a vision of himself and his future and I am touched by how hard he is trying to make that vision a reality.

...because I dislike 'heartless' people generally, although I try to understand that there is a reason for their heartlessness. More, I identify with his lack of alternative and base and his intense drive to move beyond what he has known....which is what often makes him seem cold. He is young and so careless, but looking back....so was I. Ah youth.

Roadking, I like what you wrote in an earlier post about Stendahl writing about Verrieres from the eyes of a tourist, like a "traveller." Rereading the chapters I am enjoying the beauty of the place: the lime trees, walnut trees and the mountains. I am finding the pages of The Red and The Black filled with natural beauty. Even the architectural beauty catches my eye. Eloise, I also enjoyed reading your descriptions of a small town in France. I could see your description in my mind's eye.

"A few hundred yards from the picturesque ruins of the old gothic church....an old chateau with four turrets and a garden laid out like the one at the Tuileries.

The Red and The Black may also mean "the death of passion" along with the other interpretations. Does that make sense?

Eloise said, “Mind you holding the hand of a high society married woman hand in the dark was a dangerous game at the time, but Stendhal perhaps wanted to send quite another message. The Mayor said: "Who does this little peasant think he is?"”

I think it is a dangerous game now! I cannot imagine either my husband or I sitting outside one spring night and holding the hand of another while our spouse was sitting right there! Let alone kissing it! Julien and Madame are being too dangerous!

That reminds me of a question --- Did Julien and Madame kiss on the lips or did Julien just kiss Madame’s hand? I found the wording confusing.

ALF said, “Speaking of humor ladies, how about this one? ”The offer (Fouque’s) did not please Julien; it got in the way of his craziness.”

I, too, noticed this quote from Chapter XII. Funny, my translation says, “This offer upset Julien. It spoilt the train of his mad dreams.”

This thought by Julien made me upset with him again. Oh good grief, I thought. Julien is so focused on his goals and achieving them, despite knowing he is slightly crazy, that he carries on. I think this attitude of single mindedness is going to lead to bad decision making.

LauraD, I should have called my thoughts miscellaneous thoughts. I jumped all around like a jumping jack in my post. I will do better next time. I wondered how far Julien and Mme. de Renal had gone too. The quote from Don Juan at the beginning of the chapter gave some perspective, I thought.

Then there were sighs, the deeper for suppression,
And stolen glances, sweeter for the theft,
And burning blushes, though for no transgression.

The words "though for no transgression" gave the impression, I felt, that the hand holding was as far as their contact had gone, at least, so far.

I feel the same way. Julien and Mme. de Renal are playing with fire. Though there is the chance that M. de Renal is off in his own world of self importance. He seems interested in his children. I am not sure he realizes or he has forgotten that his wife could appear attractive to another man.

Bonjour mes amis!

It appears that we all enjoy Stendhal's "comedy of errors" in the night time garden meetings, while recognizing the danger of the situation. Is it the prospect of getting caught that makes these scenes work - makes us laugh? The two aren't being very discreet, are they? Madame Derville can't help but notice - and Monsieur de Rênal's mind is elsewhere, so he doesn't see what is going on. But what if he did?
Wouldn't the aftermath be far more serious for Madame? Julien would be sent packing, but what would happen to her?

I'm seeing something far more dangerous in her future - more dangerous than getting caught. What effect will loss of innocence have on her very sensitive conscience? It is not until Chapter 11 does she hear her conscience whisper the word, "adultery,"

"It was a terrible moment; her soul was moving towards unknown lands. During the evening she had experienced never known before, now she found herself plunged unexpectedly into atrocious suffering."

I worry about this scenario - matters get even more serious between the two - and THEN they get caught. Madame might never recover. Yes, I agree with you all - they are playing with fire, hats - but I think Madame has much more to lose.

It is very sad that she has never been so happy - she believes she is loved, (at least desirable) for the first time in her life. Do you find yourself wishing her new-found happiness will continue? Meanwhile, the the boy "is playing at the Napoleon game of conquest." (Eloise)

Diana asks a good question, I think. "What is Julien's goal in life?" There really is a "glaring" conflict here, isn't there? He says he wants to go into the priesthood - that he sees this as a means to money - and power. And yet, he continues to nurture his secret love and admiration for Napoleon. Is it Napoleon's power he admires?

hats writes of Julien's appreciation for nature - once he gets away from civilization - from concerns about society. He is filled with self-contempt when he thinks of those arms, the pleasures he has let get in the way of his dream. But what is the dream? Here in the mountains he feels free from all of that - free like the solitary eagle he spots soaring over the mountain tops. Free as was Napoleon?

I've been trying to connect the dots between David's magnificent painting of Napoleon Marni brings us - and Audobon's rendering of the powerful eagle, so much like Napoleon. Then there are Stendhal's allusions to the bird of prey and the solitary eagle soaring over the mountain tops - free!

Stendhal must have seen David's paintings of Napoleon -

"Without a doubt the most famous painting of the Napoleonic legend. After Napoleon's successful coup d'etat in 1799, as First Consul he commissioned David to commemorate his daring crossing of the Alps. The crossing of the St. Bernard Pass had allowed the French to surprise the Austrian army and win victory at the Battle of Marengo on June 14, 1800. Although Napoleon had crossed the Alps on a mule, he requested that he be "portrayed calm upon a fiery horse". David complied with Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard. After the proclamation of the Empire in 1804, David became the official court painter of the regime."

The Eagle was the French equivalent of the British Regimental Colour. The regimental flag was nailed to the wooden staff, but it was the Eagle above which was important. It was a symbol of both the Regiment and the Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte. To lose the Eagle in battle was to dishonour France. This Eagle was surrendered by the 82nd French Regiment when the British force, which included the Royal Welch Fusiliers, captured Martinique on 24 February 1809.

"One of the most original French writers of the first half of the 19th century, who played a major role in the development of the modern novel. Stendhal is best known for his masterpieces LE ROUGE ET LE NOIR (1830) and LA CHARTREUSE DE PARME (1839), sharp and passionate chronicles of the intellectual and moral climate of France after Napoleon's defeat."

I haven't read Charterhouse of Parma, Diana. This was the work that Balzac was so enthused about. Perhaps it will be more understandable after reading about the moral and intellectual climate in France following Napoleon's defeat in Le Rouge et le Noir. Stendhal died in 1842 - never knew how popular his novels would become. It must have been some consolation to be praised by Balzac though. Has anyone here read Charterhouse?

"The Red and The Black may also mean 'the death of passion'." That does make sensehats and will add it to the growing list.

Joan -I read "Charterhouse" immediately after I read TR&TB. I was a teen ager at the time but I do remember the feeling of how much more i liked Charterhouse-mainly because I felt that the author was writing about more mature people with whom I could identify. As a teen the hypocrisy of the society Stendhal was writing about in TR&TB was the main thing that I was impressed with..

Today , older and wiser (I hope ), I am really enjoying the analysis of the characters and their interplay.The scenario of "The Hand" is indeed funny and operatic in tone and action. However the people involved, especially MMe Renal , have so much to lose if she is discovered, that only a true passion can overcome such fear.

For Julien it is a challenge to conquer the lady and then,undoubtedly be on his way. He has no comprehension of the fire he is playing with. Napoleon took chances, so will he, Julien. How little he understands of the world and how self centered is his outlook. A combination of youth and horrible upbringing has made our hero both sensitive and insensitive at the same time. He feels deeply that which effects him but has no real comprehension of how his actions effect others. He has seen so little love and caring in his life that he doesn't really understand it or know how to deal with it when it comes his way.

I can't imagine any good outcome for an affair between a 30 yr old mother of three and a 19 year old confused teen ager. But don't most operas end tragically?

Judy

In chapter 9, on that Evening in the Country, I understood that Madame's husband was not present but in Verrières, whence he returned the following morning - furious that Julien had not been down for classes but blithely sat in his locked room reading. Would Julien have dared to do that if the Mayor had been in the country home ?

If he had been, Julien would not have been able to become so daring AND to extend the evening with his lively (and nervous?) conversation way beyond midnight, ignorng the gathering rainstorm.

The would-be lovers are only just finding their mutual attraction confirmed, after so much doubt, uncertainty and agony. Furtively reaching for Madame's hand, again and again, and finally holding it firmly for the duration, was as far as it went. Don Juan's words in Chapter 10 show the unmistakable direction of things.

In haste

Hats--Yes, I agree, the epigraph from Byron's long poem "Don Juan" sheds light on the text! It also shows us Stendhal's Romanticism.

George Gordon, Lord Byron, who wrote "Don Juan" was one of Stendhal's heroes and a leading light of the second generation of English Romantic poets.

Byron wrote some wonderful poems, led the madcap life of a man about town, had an affair (and a daughter) with his half-sister and numerous other women and died in 1824 at 36. He was good friends with Percy Shelley and he, Mary Shelley, and her half sister lived together in Geneva for a while.

Anyhoo, "Don Juan" is a comic epic poem in 17 cantos. Stendhal much admired the poem which he quotes from more than once. Here's the beginning of Canto I of "Don Juan":

I want a hero: an uncommon want,
When every year and month sends forth a new one,
Till, after cloying the gazettes with cant,
The age discovers he is not the true one;
Of such as these I should not care to vaunt,
I'll therefore take our ancient friend Don Juan --
We all have seen him, in the pantomime,
Sent to the devil somewhat ere his time.

Byron rhymes "Juan" with "true one," and thus establishes the way we are to pronounce the name for the purposes of this poem. I read it many years ago and loved it.

The other connection to the Romantic poets concerns William Wordsworth (one of the earlier generation of Romantic poets). When the French Revolution became the Reign of Terror, eating its own children, Wordsworth turned against it, but his initial response was:

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!

My point, I guess, is that part of Stendhal, especially in his admiration for Napoleon, is very much a Romantic, influenced by British Romanticism.

Maryal

R&B describes France roughly in the years 1825-30, a period when the differences between the Liberals and the Royalists had become too wide to allow hope for a settlement.

Liberals were those who continued to uphold Republican principles of freedom of thought and freedom of expression.

The word "liberal" does not mean "Democratic" in this case. In fact, the kings of the Bourbon dynasty had been absolute monarchs for centuries, they were in a class of their own apart from the hierarchical system of the realm.

The Royalists became Ultra-Royalists, "Ultras" for short, who supported Charles X in his attempt to regain the absolute powers of the ancien régime. Charles X did prevail by the slimmest of margins but a reconciliation was no longer possible. Then came the "glorious days" of July 1830, when Charles X, a well-intentioned man, was forced to abdicate in favor of a "citizen king".

This is the France depicted in the R&B. Even the Church had taken sides in the conflict and, by proclaiming the "alliance of throne and altar", intensified and continued the ill-will among men holding opposite views.

The inference is clear. The Mayor had "connections" to Paris and deliberately designed his gardens after the famous examples there. He was in Verrières more than in the country home and none too pleased when Madame and Julien transformed the walkway in short order on their own without even consulting him beforehand!!. The fact that Madame had paid for the project herself hardly mollified the Mayor.

The discovery of Napoleon's picture in the little round box hidden under Julien's mattress would have cost Julien dearly, for the Mayor is an Ultra and has no use for admirers of Napoleon. The fear of discovery is palpable in both Julien and Madame. She manages to retrieve the box and hands it to Julien, just in the nick of time. Without saying even one word to her, Julien rushes away and burns it.

Father Chélan's concerns for Julien are sincere, and not only regarding the question of money. He himself obviously (and correctly) does not think Julien is of a material cut for a man of the cloth. He urges Julien not to make a hasty decision but to carefully consider all his options.

Julien does not want to marry Elisa, he already has other, higher aspirations, albeit only in his mind, so far. So he conceives the idea of making dark hints to Father Chélan about Elisa's alleged past.

Aha, thinks the reader. So this impetuous young man with the towering ambition, pride and a choleric temper can even stoop to what we moderns call defamation of character ! Well now !

MARYAL, thank you for the wonderful post and quotation in your # 196. What a pleasure !

Here's something to sober us up after reading of the fun and games in the orchard at Vergy.

Do you recall this passage in chapter 8? "Always zealous in imitating the habits of the Court, with the first fine days of spring M. de Renal removed his household to Vergy; it is the village rendered famous by the tragic adventure of Gabrielle."

Tragic adventure, indeed, and that is not an idle reference. There are no unimportant details in Stendhal's story.

(The following is from a wikipedia entry.)

Gabriella di Vergy is an opera by Gaetans Donizetti, based on the tragedy Gabrielle de Vergy (1777) by Dormont De Belloy. The play was inspired by two French medieval legends, Le Châtelain de Coucy et la dame de Fayel and Le Roman de la Chastelaine de Vegy.

The Châtelaine de Vergy tells the story of a knight in the service of the Duke of Burgundy who is the lover of the Châtelaine of Vergy (the wife of a châtelain and niece to the Duke). The Châtelaine has accepted this knight's love on one condition: that he must keep their relationship secret from everyone, and he is able to visit his mistress when, by their pre-arranged signal, she walks her dog alone in her garden.

When the Duchess of Burgundy falls in love with the knight, he is forced to spurn her advances. In her anger, the duchess then tells her husband that the knight is unfaithful and has tried to seduce her, and the Duke accuses the knight of treachery. To save his honor, and to avoid being exiled (and thus forced to distance himself from his mistress), the knight (once the lord has promised to keep his secret) reveals to his lord where his heart truly lies, thus violating his promise to his mistress.

Unfortunately, the Duke reveals the truth of the knight's love to his wife, and, at the feast of Penecoste, the Duchess utters a cruel inside joke to the Châtelaine about her lover and her "well-trained dog". The Châtelaine realizes her lover has not kept his promise and she dies in despair. The knight discovers her body and kills himself. The Duke finds both bodies, and exacts vengeance on his wife by killing her with the knight's sword, and then becomes a knight Templar.

Thank you for posting about the history of France, it gives us a better understanding of the plot in this novel. At home when I was a child we had an big illustrated book on Napoleon that my mother simply admired and I still remember the image of Napoleon crossing the St Bernard. I am sure that painting elevated his persona in the minds of many people.

Maryal, I always thought that it was the French who were more romantic than the British. Thank you for posting that moving poem about Don Juan.

I also, along with Eloise, would like to say thank you for so much information about Lord Byron and the poem.

Bonjour Éloïse, hats!

Yes, I agree, the more we know of the history of France at this time, the better we understand what is important to Stendhal and motivates his story. And as Maryal and Road King have demonstrated, he draws from his literary favorites to enrich his tale. Road King points out that there are no unimportant details in Stendhal's story.

It is obvious to all of us by now that Stendhal is devoted to the memory of Napoleon. If my math is right, Napoleon died in 1821, Stendhal writes Le Rouge et le Noir around 1827 - so the grieving is still very recent and the changes in France during the restoration of the monarchy sorely felt by everyone in the country.

Thank you, Traudee for filling us in on the differing factions and the terminology - the "Ultras" - who supported Charles X in his attempt to regain the absolute powers of the ancien régime and the "liberals" - who continued to uphold Republican principles of freedom of thought and freedom of expression.

The Norton Critical Edition supplies this endnote on Stendhal and the politics of this period -

"All nineteenth century European politics is dominated by the immense enigmatic figure of Napoleon...all his admirers within the book recognize the need to defend him, all his enemies are capable of seeing something in him to admire. What to accept and what to reject of the Napoleonic heritage was particularly the problem of the restored Bourbons.

They could not undo the massive economic changes wrought under Napoleon, could not wipe from the books the Code Napoléon, (unified statute of laws), could not abolish the Legion of Honor, could not undo the Banc of France, liquidate the Napoleonic aristocracy or restore the church to anything like its old powers...the Bourbons were thus committed, however insincerely to a constitutional monarchy of sorts. What they then tried to create around these original compromises was a regime centering like the old regime on court and church, drawing support from the now somewhat homogenized aristocracy. The degeneracy of this regime is Stendhal's constant theme.

Ultras and liberals are the two terms of Stendhal's political world...but because his perspective on 19th century politics was so remote, the differences between liberal and ultra are not very great. Liberals become ultras without inordinate difficulty, ultras become liberals by arrangement. It is a war of words, nothing more. Politics in depth, on the other hand, revolutionary politics, is always lurking behind the smokescreen of verbal politics.

The assurance of a revolution to come is a fixed element in the world of the Rouge; everyone counts on it...This may be an idée fixe of Stendhal's or simply a natural conclusion drawn from watching the Bourbons try to govern."

Éloïse, Diana asks about Stendhal's Charterhouse of Parma. Is this something most French people have read too? It sounds like something you - and your mother might have read. I'm smiling at Judy's comment that she liked it even more than Le Rouge - "I felt that the author was writing about more mature people with whom I could identify." Keep in mind that our Judy was a teenager at the time!

- Road King - Thank you so much for pointing Stendhal's ominous reference - and not an idle reference to Gabriella di Vergy. The future does not look bright for our love birds, does it? The Norton Critical has this footnote - essentially telling the story as you have told with a little extra comment -

...in the young man torn between a high-born destructive mistress and a provincial sensitive one appear certain parallels with the Rouge

Vergy itself is in the right general area for Stendhal's story, but his picture of the countryside is founded on memories of a country house near Grenoble which his sister Pauline occupied during the second decade of the 19th century. A recent operatic version of Gabrielle's story had its premier on August 8, 1828."

That's about when Stendhal was writing this novel so we can see it influenced him - we need to read more to understand the parallels. Again, thank you for focusing our attention on this.

JoanP, Traude and RoadKing, thank you. I am learning so much while enjoying this wonderful classic.

Thanks for your input here, Maryal - it is interesting to note that Stendhal, known for his realism, not well-accepted by the Romantics at the time - was actually a man of his times in his admiration for Wordsworth, for Lord Byron - and his "Don Juan" - (rhyming with "true one" - would you say, Don One?) - I noted another ominous entry from Don Juan at the start of Chapter 10 -

"But passion most dissembles, yet betrays
Even by its darkness; as the blackest sky
Foretells the heaviest tempest."

Well, thank YOU, hats - for bringing our attention to other literary allusions Stendhal incorporates into his story. You've brought up Don Quixote's "impossible dream" - at this point Julien has been called "crazy" because of his lofty aspirations. How about the fact that both Don Q and Julien have been driven to their madness from reading too much - reading too much!

You've also picked up on Stendhal's reference to Hercules. I've a footnote on this too -

"The theme of Hercules forced to choose between painful virtue and contemptible ease is a frequent one in Renaissance painting. Stendhal in his youth had actually entered the wholesale grocery business in Marseilles, hoping to make enough money in a few years to devote the rest of his life to his art."

Our Julien now has another choice - priesthood, army - or his friend Fouqué's offer to make some easy money om commerce. (I'm not sure how money would help him get a post in the army, but I'll bet it would.) Do you notice a change in him as he makes his way back to Vergy? I am forgetting why he visited Fouqué in the first place. Was it just to get away and blow off some steam?

Joan P--I didn't write that clearly, did I?

"Juan" rhymes with "true one"= Joo one. The "Don" stays the same. "Juan" in Byron's poem--and maybe only there--is two syllables.

Hats--I also appreciated your reminding us of Don Quixote. That awful nail factory in the beginning of this ovel reminded me of Don Q's and Pancho's night near that mill with the loud hammers. Quixote was terrified, imagined monsters.

Traude--Thank you for the history of France at this period about which I know so little.

Maryal

Re: "I'm not sure how money would help him get a post in the army"...In the British army at this time, and, I believe, in the French army, men could buy their commissions rather than work their way up into them. Someone with money could begin service this way as an officer. Plus, money would buy him better accoutrements, food, lodgings, entertainment, etc. in the service.

Did anyone see Jeopardy last night? There was a question about who wrote the poem "Don Juan." Hah! I got the answer because of this discussion.

As the discussion about the colors Red and Black raged something was tickling my brain. It recently came to fruition as a result of Joans, post #193 and the picture of the Eagle displayed on a long lance.

Both China and Russia chose Red as their symbol of revolution. Remember the Red Guards and Maos Little Red Book of Wisdom? After the Russian Revolution the Soviets chose Red as the color of the background for their hammer and sickle. Remember the Red ties the children wore both in Russia and China?

Hitler chose Black as his symbolic color. The Black Shirts of the 1930s drove fear into the hearts of many millions of innocents. He (or his minions) chose the symbol of the Eagle atop the lance as displayed in Joans post #193.

Did Stendhal influence these regimes? There must be more to the title than we have yet discovered.Red and black have important symbolic meaning , not just for Stendhal.

Judy

Joan, I'm glad you asked the significance of Chapter 15's title, "Cockcrow". It has to do with courage, a character trait that Julien admires in his hero, Napolean, and is desperate to acquire himself.

Here's a synopsis of the relevant part in Matthew, chap. 26.

During the the Last Supper, Jesus told his disciples that they would abandon him and deny him. Peter objected and rashly asserted that he would distinguish himself from the other disciples. “Even though all may fall away because of you, I will never fall away.”

Jesus replied, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a cock crows, you shall deny me three times”.

Jesus was betrayed, arrested and taken to the house of the high priest. Peter followed and sat down in the courtyard where several people recognized him as one of Jesus’ followers. Twice he denied knowing Jesus and then, immediately after his third denial - a cock crowed! Peter remembered his rash boasting of courage and loyalty to Jesus and “wept bitterly”.

Peter had been praising his own courage (“I will never fall away”) but learned a lesson in humility. We don’t know the extent of our courage until it’s been tested by exposure to real danger.

Julien, unencumbered by humility and without sufficient appreciation of his limitations (he was a virgin), made a rash proposal to visit Madame de Rênal in her bedroom. When the clock struck two it affected him as the cock-crow had affected Peter. He had been “praising his own courage” just before fear made his knees buckle.

I had noted the answer to question #3 from Chapter XIII during my reading because I found it so interesting and unexpected.

“He said to himself: 'I must have one of these two women'; he realised that he would greatly have preferred to pay his court to Madame Derville; it was not that she was more attractive, but she had seen him always as a tutor honoured for his learning, and not as a working carpenter, with a ratteen jacket folded under his arm, as he had first appeared to Madame de Renal.”

Wow! Maybe it is not Madame Renal that he loves, but her social standing.

Bonjour mes amis!

It looks as if the long-awaited birth of grandchild #6 just might be today - Friday the 13th! They are on the way to the hospital now. Her fourth child, doctor says it will be fast.

- Judy, I planned to get that page of red/black symbolism together today. Will certainly consider the fact that the two colors have important symbolic meeting, not just for Stendhal. - Red, a symbol for "revolution" (China, Russia), black for "oppression" (Hitler)? Or Anarchy?

-Marni - I seem to remember that Stendhal's cousin got him a commission as an officer in Napoleon's army. He must have paid for this, don't you think?

Do you think money was needed to get into the Seminary too? I'm not sure if Julien considers going into business with Fouqué to get some money together as a means of getting out of Verrières - or as a third alternative to escape poverty.

He seems angry with himself as he returns. Is it because he even considered working with Fouqué an option? Is that what he means when he refers to the offer as "vulgar"? So, where is he now in the grand scheme of things? Seminary/army?

Revolution is in the air. Everyone knows it. Is the army really an option? Whose army? Where would/did the army stand during the Revolution?

-
- Laura - interesting. Julien loves neither woman, but feels more attracted to Mme. Derville. Which kind of surprises me as she is not the one in the net stockings. I guess she hasn't insulted his feelings by regarding him as a mere tutor. Of course, it is because the Rênals look upon him with condescension that he feels he must get back at them somehow. "Having" Madame Rênal would even the score somewhat.

There's a footnote in the Norton Critical regarding Madame Derville-

"Cool, sensible, and unparticularised in the fiction, Mme. Derville nonetheless enshrines an early flame of Stendhal's; her name in real life was Sophie Boulon. She came from Grenoble and Stendhal's private pseudonym for her, a quarter of a century before the Rouge was written was Mme. Derville."

Do you not sympathize with Mme. Rênal? Her little world has been turned upside down - as she is torn between fear that Julien doesn't love her and the horror at the prospect of committing adultery. Shades of Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter no? (When was this published? - (hmmm, scarlet) -

"She was tortured by the frightful thought of her crime, as if on the morrow she was to be exposed in the pillory, on the public square of Verrières, with a placard explaining her adultery to the populace."

Then there's Julien, as removed as possible, not giving the ladies another thought as he turns to his favorite book for inspiration. He concludes he must "crush" his enemy - to get even with his enemy, he must conquer Madame, who is only too willing.

But Road King brings us the image of the shrinking Julien, unable to think because why? Because he fears he will not be up for the task. He did tell her he'd be at her door at 2 pm - is he having second thoughts? Or will he fail to live up to his promise. Courage, Julien!

Wasn't this the strangest seduction scene in history? I was amazed that he stayed with her until daybreak once the deed was accomplished! Is Stendhal still trying to make us smile?

I was just poking around for information on the July 30 revolution against the monarchy in 1830 and came across this painting of Liberty Leading the People by Delacroix during that revolt. Note the flag in her hand...

Oh, what a night! I loved the martial language Stendahl used to describe the "most painful episode." So perfect to describe Julien. Julien had left Mme at midnight and he did not sleep because he was in a bad mood and feeling humiliated, racking his brain "inventing clever MANOEUVRES, which an instant afterwards he found absurd."

Julien said to himself he will not be weak. He almost fell down from his trembling knees giving way as he approached Mme's room. HE HAD NO PLAN!

When he entered her room, which had the light on, Mme called Julien a wretch and he burst into tears. So, was that what did it? Tears? The Mme is a sucker for a sensitive young androgenous pretty boy who is bold and brazen, yet cries. Crying put her over the edge. After the tears, they spend hours together until "there was nothing left to be desired." Julien may have used clumsy TACTICS but he had gained VICTORY.

His "idea of DUTY" was with him the whole time. He thinks later he had CAPTURED her. As he recalls the details, LIKE A SOLDIER COMING BACK FROM PARADE, he wonders if he played his part well.

What a battle!

Joan: The picture is just an X on my computer.

Joan, in the Delacroix painting, Liberty is holding aloft the tricouleur (spelling?). Red, white and blue (not black).

Wikipedia has a fascinating account of The French Revolution of 1830, also known as the July Revolution.

Here’s the entry for Thursday, 29 July, 1830: Day Three (of the revolution). "The red flag of the revolutionaries – the "people's flag" – could be seen flying over buildings, an increasing number of them important buildings. Nowhere was there the white and gold flag of the Bourbons."

Léon Cogniet painted “Scenes of July 1830” a painting alluding to the July revolution of 1830. The flag of the Ancien Régime (white background with fleur de lis, torn and soiled with blood, turns into the tricolour flag of the Constitutional Monarchy.

It's quite clever the way Cogniet depicts the metamorphosis of the flag from white to the tricolour. I'm sorry that I haven't learned how to post the picture of the painting. Please look it up, under the painter's name or the title of the painting, in Google images or Wikipedia. It's worth the search.

Road King, is this the flag you mean? The French Revolution of July 1830

Joan, I never read La Chartreuse de Parme unfortunately, but I promise myself I will after this discussion is over. Perhaps my mother, who was a devout Catholic never had it in the house because it was too bold. Later I read more modern books.

I would love to stop and analyze every paragraph, but I must move on. I have yet to feel that Julien loves Madame. I want to attribute this to his impetuous youth and he has decided he was not going to let a woman come between his lofty goals in the military or in the church.

So far it doesn't say how he is going to acquire the money needed to enter the ranks, not at the bottom echelon, a post that needed influence from higher echelons. He knows that if he plays his cards well, he could very well get what he wants. The conquest of Madame's heart was a victory for him and the means by which he achieved it could be use elsewhere when needed. He needed to prove to himself that he had Courage and Determination.

In Madame's bedroom, when he broke down and cried like a child he had her in the palms of his hand. Who can resist a grown man crying.

The Editor's notes in the back of my version says, and I translate: "Under Napoleon, I would have been sargent; among the future priests, I will be Grand Vicaire. The Red and the Black is thus the ecclesiastic state opposed to the military state."

I think personally that Stendhal chose the title for sales purposes and would intrigue readers more than if he had entitled it Julien Sorel.

Marni’s latest post reminded me of one of my favorite quotes from this section of reading, which is found on the first page of Chapter XIV:

“If he had not been stupid enough to have made a plan, Julien’s quick wit would have served him well, and the surprise would only have intensified the quickness of his perception.”

I laughed out loud! Poor Julien! There is a saying, “The best laid plans …” I don’t remember the rest of it. Something about them being upset, spoiled, ruined, etc. Maybe Julien will have to give up his dependence on his plans and try to interact more spontaneously.

There were several other quotes which were contradictory in nature in this section of reading. I was reminded of my idea of the book being about contrasts.

“Julien was extremely disconcerted by the almost desperate plight of which he had brought his affairs. Nothing, however, would have embarrassed him more than success.” (second page of Chapter XV)

“Even when there was nothing left for [Madame] to refuse him she pushed Julien away from her with a genuine indignation, and straightaway threw herself into his arms.” (last page of Chapter XV)

Maybe Julien and Madame de Renal will make a good pair after all --- they are both so full of contradictions!

Éloïse, thank you for providing the link to the painting of the metamorphosized flag of the 1830 revolution.

Several of you have speculated on the means of attaining success in the military of that era. In his diary, Stendhal made several allusions to corruption in the army; high ranking officers misappropriating funds, black-marketeering and selling commands to the highest bidder.

Stendhal's diaries read just like this novel. As a young man, so much introspection and so little attention to the practicalities of life, like earning an honest living. He shamelessly sponged off his father and lied to him about his expenses. I see those tendencies in Julien. At his core he is almost pathalogically self-absorbed and dishonest.

Laura-

The line you refer to is from Robert Burns' poem (1785) "To a Mouse"--"the best-laid schemes o' mice and men gang aft aglee".

It's a boooooooy!!!
Five grandsons - one princess! We had all just about given up on this baby, he was so overdue. Guess he was waiting for Friday the 13th! Brooks MacGregor Pearson weighed in at 8lbs, 3oz. He and his mom - dad and brothers are doing fine. Don't know about Lindsay, who was certain this one would be a girl!

Oh what was I thinking! I knew that Delacroix's "Liberty Leading the People" was bearing the tri-colors of France! Road King - thank you for bringing us the evolution of the Tri-couleur flag!)

- I must confess I was very much distracted as daughter-in-law was in the hospital for much of the day. Yet another excuse - I had been surfing and came across this red and black flag - that represented "revolution" throughout the 19th and 20th centuries all over the world, so when I saw what looked like a red/white/black flag on the revolutionary battlefield, I really became excited.

But what do you think? Could Stendhal's title be referring to the red and black flag of revolution?
red/black flag of anarchy

It appears that every editor has his/her idea of the meaning of the title, Le Rouge et le Noir - it seems quite subjective to me - at this point in the book, I'm not sure where I stand. I do like that red and black flag of revolution - today, anyway. Before I put your suggestions into a link in the heading, will you look over this list and see if there are any changes or additions that you would like to make?

1. The "Black" of the title represents the Roman Catholic Church; the "Red" a broader symbol, suggesting the Revolution,

2. The black represents the clergy - the red the nobility, royalty

3. The army uniforms and clerical robes

4. The Red symbolizing the church, the scarlet of cardinal's robes and the Black, symbolizing the military, the uniform.

5. The roulette colors - One puts one's chip on "The Red" or "The Black

6. The red, the blood of nameless victims, the black came from the ink of countless books from libraries and universities

7. The Red and The Black may also mean the death of passion

8. Red, a symbol for "revolution" - black for oppression or anarchy

As I try to figure out the political allegiances of these characters - the ultras and the liberals - and how they impact the story - I begin to wonder how Stendhal's story would work If we stripped out all the intrigue? the class thing would still be there - the wealthy mother, the paid tutor fall in love under the father's nose. Well? Would the husband send his wife packing when he discovered the affair? Would the wife run off with her money, her children and the pretty young boy, giving up her home and her place in society? How much would the pride of the cuckolded husband enter into his decision to keep his wife, no matter what her crime?

How important is it that we understand the impact of the upcoming revolution has on the characters? Is the revolution the real motivator that drives the story?

Marni - you paint the scene so well. Julien marching into Madame's bedroom like one of Napoleon's brave young soldiers going on to the battlefield for the first time. Like any young revolutionary in the people's army might have done, he broke into tears when meeting the experienced royalist enemy for the first time. Oh, I agree with all of you - it was the tears that won the day, brought out the mother in Madame. She could make it all better.

LauraD, I love the contrasts you are noting - especially this one -

“Even when there was nothing left for [Madame] to refuse him she pushed Julien away from her with a genuine indignation, and straightaway threw herself into his arms.” (last page of Chapter XV)

The poor woman is full of contradictions. I fear for her sanity! Road King - I fear from her also because she is dealing with someone like Julien, whom you describe as self-absorbed. and dishonest (even if you are describing Stendhal!) This looks like a losing situation for Madame.

What I found interesting - after the affair, when many young men "conquer" the object of their affection and turn away, our Julien appears to be smitten with his prey. Road King, I'm thinking of the metamorphoses of the tricouleur. Is this what is happening between Julien and Madame? Will the red of the revolutionary and the white of the aristocracy morph into something else, some classless relationship?

Thanks for supplying the missing verse, Maribeth - I love the Scottish - "the best-laid schemes o' mice and men gang aft aglee."

Joan P--W e L c O m E. little BROOKS!!

And congratulations on this latest little boy. Poor Lindsay!

Thanks, Maryal! Lindsay held the little guy this morning for the first time - and was all smiles. I think it's been pointed out to her that she doesn't have to share her room - or her dolls with the new brother.

Here are a few more questions before we move on -

Do you all think Julien is meant for the army, rather than the priesthood? (I bet Julien will need money to get into the seminary too, Road King) He really seems to be having second thoughts about his future as a priest after Abbé Chélan was removed from his post, doesn't he? Why do you think that happened? Politics, right?

I'm a bit confused about why M. de Rênal wants M. Moirod named First Deputy. Is it because he too is an ultra - or because he owns some houses the Mayor wants removed from the road? - is that all there is to it? He seems a decent sort, doesn't he?

Joan, for your consideration.

Red = peasantry, as personified by "old Sorel, a dour and obstinate peasant". The Britannica Dictionary entry for sorel associates it with sorrel, "a reddish color.

Red = sacred fire. The old priest, curé Chélan, had eyes in which "there burned that sacred fire which betokens the pleasure of performing a fine action which is slightly dangerous".

Black = imprisonment, suggested by the name of the town jailer, Noiroud.

I like Eloise's theory: The Red and the Black is simply a much more marketable title than Julien Sorel.

Hi, Joan & others

I've just been peeking in at your reading of the Stendahl book. I've never read it.

Joan's new baby reminded me of the birth of our girl baby . Her three-year-old brother was really thrown off balance, visibly piqued, betrayed, or what you will. A psychologist's suggestion sounded way too simple. She said we should do something alone--a trip to the park, a movie, etc.--with the older child every now and then. What a strong affirmation and continuing connection. It ended his pain.

I also recall a girl grimacing in a doctor's waiting room whenever she turned her back on her mom and new sibling. She kept a cheery face to her mom. Sometimes everything is not as it seems.

(Our two became close and cooperated in their friendships and activities during the high school year they shared and to this day in young middle age.)

Best of luck.

JOAN, congratulations to you and the family on the arrival of the latest grandson, who kept you waiting for so long!

ROAD KING, thank you belatedly for the information on Gabrielle de Vergy. There is nothing at all (!) in my Penguin translation by Margaret Shaw. My copy of the French text does have a brief footnote that says this is

"An adaptation of La Châtelaine de Vergy , a novel from the 13th century which appeared in 1829. Stendhal was aware of this story also because of Marguerite de Navarre among others."

Stendhal shows us in many ways just how different the background of Madame and Julien is and how vast the class difference. Julien is keenly aware that he is "low-born", but Madame is supremely naïve, hence she wonders why Julien has only one first name.

At that time it was customary for the members of the aristocracy and the wealthy to carry more than one first name. The practice continues to date in the remaining nobility of Europe. Just two examples :

The Prince of Wales has 3 names in addition to 'William'. The eldest daughter of Princess Grace is Caroline Louise Marguerite, Hereditary Princess of Monaco. Married since 1999 to Ernst August V, Prince of Hanover, she is known as Caroline Princess of Hanover.

While titles matter less in Europe now, class distinctions still exist, based on family background, education and, of course, money, especially when it is "old" money (!!)

R&B is a novel to be examined and savored, I believe, to see where the author takes us. He gives us clues and, reluctant though we may be to admit it, we may have to consider the possibility that there can be no future for these two improbable lovers.

When I read this book for the first time, I was much younger, in a different life on a different continent, and I have forgotten many of the intricacies of the plot since. I do know, however, that I never wondered about the meaning of the title, all I wanted was to find out what would happen to the lovers and what Julien's fate might be.

Doubtless R&B represents Stendhal's own views and certainly reflects some of his own experiences. But his views on love and his personal experiences are outlined more specifically in his essay De L'amour . R&B, I believe, stands on its own, and so do the characters.

Cannot wait to get down to TN to hold this new addition to the family. This is the first grandbaby not born in Virginia - the first I didn't get to hold right away when still in the hospital. Will be going down this coming week when other Nana heads home. Thank you for the welcome! Barbara, I will certainly keep that advice in mind and spend some quality time alone with 5 year old Lindsay next week. Thank you!

I LOVE to hear from those who have been "peeking in" the discussion. We are happy to know you are with us - from time to time,
Welcome Barbara!This past week I got an email from another who prefers "auditor" to "lurker." He notes that the readers who have been posting are more perceptive than he is -

"I grew a little tired of what I called the "melodrama of it all". The detailed description of the two love affairs grew a little tiresome for me. But when written in 1830, I can see that readers might have been captivated by the writing."

I wonder how many of you feel the same way? As Traudee says - "R&B is a novel to be examined and savored, I believe, to see where the author takes us." I feel this way too, but wonder how the rest of you feel about this and about the pace?

- Road King - we will certainly add your red and black contributions to the page of interpretations. I agree with Eloise too - "Le Rouge et le Noir" will sell more copies than the name, "Julien Sorel." But don't you wonder what he meant by the new title - and what his readers understood by the title?

I got a kick out of the name of the town jailer - "Noiroud." I missed the name - noir=black.
There's a brief endnote in the Norton Critical Edition that says "Sorel" may be derived from Agnes Sorel, the mistress of Charles VII (1422-1450) - or from Charles Sorel, author of the Histoire comique de Francion - 1623. None of this means anything to me - I like your "reddish color" for "Sorrel" better Road King.

Have you noticed that there is no discussion anywhere among Stendhal's contemporaries about the meaning of the title? Is it because it is unimportant - or is it because the meaning is clear to everyone at the time of the Revolution?

Traudee writes - "while titles matter less in Europe now, class distinctions still exist, based on family background, education and, of course, money, especially when it is "old" money (!!)" I've been trying to follow the class differences in Stendhal's time. Yes, we have the ultras and the liberals - but where does Julien's family fit in? They were peasants but have now become "rich" thanks to the sawmill business. Would they be "liberals" now?

I just have to show you this - our copy of the "Economist" arrived yesterday and look at the cover boy! Does he look familiar?

Economist, April 14, 2007

Joan, in post #232 you asked how we feel about the pace of our discussions. A chapter-a-day is just right for my taste, examining and savoring this extraordinary vintage. This is my fourth reading of R&B but for the first time, with a lot of help from everyone in the group, I know that I'm finally beginning to understand it and appreciate its complexities.

The Economist cover could not have been more timely for this group. N'est pas? A modern day Napolean, costumed in Red and Black! I've always wondered what that wild-eyed horse was thinking?

JOAN, the French will have to think carefully about the May election and Nicolas Sarkozy as president. It is interesting to watch the woman candidate, Ségolène Royal. She was born in Senegal in 1953, the daughter of an Army officer. The family had eight children in nine years, five were boys. The father was fond of saing, "I have five children and three girls." The NYT magazine carried an article about her last year. I can't remember the details of Ségolène's education, but she managed to get one, despite her father's objections.

JOAN, Julien and his family were commoners and most likely not even entitled to vote because of extremely restricted election laws. THAT's why Charles X was elected by such a small margin in 1824.
To his credit, he did change the election laws and established freedom of the press but, as they say, the center didn't hold. He abdicated rather than giving up his absolute powers. In the revolution of 1830 Louis-Philippe, the "Citizen King", succeeded him. Louis Philippe reigned until 1848 and was the last king of France.

When Julien makes it to Paris, we'll have an opoportunity to look in on the ultras and the intrigues, political and otherwise.

I am following the election coming up in France and I think it would be good if Sarkozy won. I don't think he is at all like Napoleon, but France needs a strong head to deal with the problems they have today.

I don't think we will ever know about that title because S didn't explain himself except in metaphors. I take the words at face value, should I look deeper, I don't know.

Joan, Oh! happy grandmother, your progeny will soon be as large as mine.

Traude, that history is so interesting.

ÉLOÏSE, Sarkozy may have a hard time with the large minorities of Arabs and French from the former colonies. He has canceled campaign stops, one in Lyon, and elsewhere faced hostile protesters and hecklers. We shall see ...

JoanP: CONGRATULATIONS on the little one! Oh, you are a lucky grandmama - so many beautiful little darlings.

Roadking: I simply loved the words and names you found relating to red and black. Well done!

Congrats on the new grandbaby, Joan!

I like the slow pace. It gives everyone time to read and talk about the book, and keep up with our "other lives." I must say, I do prefer having a week to discuss 50 pages rather than 3 or 4 days to discuss 25 pages each.

Congratulations on Brooks MacGregor Pearson!!!!

I apologize for my absence, but I've caught up with book and posts, and things should be less crazy for me now. Anyway, I don't think you really needed me, because you said almost everything I would have.

Eloise--"I have yet to feel that Julien loves Madame." Road King--"at the core he (Julien) is almost pathologically self-absorbed and dishonest." Joan--"after the affair, when many men 'conquer' the object of their affection and turn away, our Julien appears to be smitten...."

These comments sum up what I have been thinking. At first there is no sign that Julien has any affection whatever for Mme. Renal. He determines to hold her hand only because he feels she has slighted him. With him it’s always a question of power or dignity. Attraction, love, and sex don’t seem to play much role—it’s a military campaign, designed to give him the upper hand, console him with a victory every time he feels he has been awkward.

It’s only in chapter 13 that he starts admiring her charm, and hes doesn’t seem to love her until after he has spent the night in her room.

Pat H. don't you feel that he is still too young for love? His inexperience with women and with being in touch with his inner feelings,

I am talking like a psychologist, he has a long way to go in life yet. Stendhal perhaps thought about His first love when he describes Julien.

I agree with the auditor/lurker, R&B is melodramatic, but for me the story is secondary to the style. While the author is telling this not unusual tale, he is examining society accurately. The deception that needs to happen to hide their secret love is equal to the lies they have to tell in order to gain more and more power.

Joan P, I don't think Madame was afraid of being thrown out of the house, if that happened she could easily start over somewhere else, but Monsieur would have lost face and that certainly would not have advanced his social position. Forgiving her would be magnanimous and would earn him more respect.

I saw a very sweet movie about first love the other night on TV - "Little Manhattan." Anyone seen it? Of course, I thought of R&B. It was about a 10-year old boy falling in love with the older, more mature, woman - his 11-year old classmate. Through his voice-over, you hear his thoughts as he anguishes over how to act, what to say, if he should kiss her, etc.

Congratulations Joan on your new grandchild. How lucky to be born into a loving family !

On the other hand our Julien is a Cinderella fella, unwanted and brutalized by his family. I think that the following quote will put to rest the remarks about those who worry about Juliens hypocrisy:

"IN restoring the monarchy the rulers were restoring a natural social order in which , as God willed, ones place was ordered by ones birth. Piety , hierarchy abd social immobility were cherished moral values of the age...Julien has little choice but to pretend to believe things he doesn't believe...If he wants to improve his lowly condition, history decrees he must be a hypocrite. In love, as in religion and politics, he must ignore the banalities he is fed and take a hungrily scientific interest in how the gears and levers of social power really work."

From the intro to the book by Bruce Robbins.

Judy

Judy, thanks for the quote from Bruce Robbins in the intro. to your edition of R&B. It's a reminder that I must be careful about unfairly judging Julien, and all of this novel's characters, by the morality and social standards that I learned in mid-20th century, small-town America.

I also confess that I'm finding Julien's character to be a moving target. Just when I think I've got him figured out, Stendhal adds another dimension to his personality and I have to reassess my diagnosis.

Éloïse, do you feel Julien "is still too young for love"? Whatever is happening between Madame de Renal and Julien does beg the question, doesn't it: what is love?

Judy, thank you for the quote. I don't think it's important to make a judgment call about Julien. It's more important, I believe, to judge the society and its values. It's definitely a book about the class system, rich vs. poor, haves and have nots.

Society and environment and other outside forces shape us along with our personal decisions on which road to take in life and how we journey on that road. Why are these people the way they are, Mme. Renal, Julien, his father, brothers, the church fathers? That is the question.

We can not judge Julien in a healthy way. This is because Julien is not finished staking out his identity yet.

"He was a long way from taking a philosophical view of his position, but he was lucid enough to feel different after his little journey into the mountains."

There is certainly no subtlety about the way the Stendehal describes the inner thoughts of Julien and Mathilde. Both seem captivated by their own Romantic imaginings about the past and their present state of boredom with the present. What fascinates me is how Stendehal, through this kind of internal dialogue and his own many editorial asides about these characters, seems to be an attempt to shape our response to each of these characters. I find myself sometimes wishing there was “something left” for me to discover about their inner thoughts and deliberations? Do you agree?

Bonjour, mes amis!

C'est aujourd'hui lundi (Monday) and little Brooks MacGregor was born on vendredi - Friday. I'm so happy to be able to share my happiness here with you. Reading your comments this morning, I feel the giddy joy all over again. Thank you! Today I have to make plans to get down to meet the little guy.

Bern, I know what you mean about Stendhal shaping our response to his characters - Road King describes Julien's character as "a moving target," - in constant need of reassessment as Stendhal adds another dimension to his personality. I am okay with the way Stendhal is slowly introducing us into Julien's developing mind and emotions - and Madame's awakening, too. I feel he's leaving the bigger questions for me to ponder - (like "what is love" for example.

)

hats writes - "Society and environment and other outside forces shape us along with our personal decisions on which road to take in life and how we journey on that road." I think that's what Stendhal is doing here - and wonder if he using these "outside forces" that shape Julien's personal decisions - as a way of excusing his own youthful decisions.

Le Rouge is something new in fiction - as Stendhal examines the inner workings of the mind, the motivating thoughts of the characters - this is unchartered territory. Perhaps your preference to examine the characters' actions and form your own conclusions on what motivated them - describes the way Stendhal's readership felt when the novel was first published?

"Is it love" - Road King asks the follow-up question - what is love? Is it the longing feeling the little boy feels for his older classmate in the movie Marni describes, or is it the discovery that one is loved - accepted. Is there a middle ground that is love? I agree, Julien is self-absorbed at this time - as PatH points out - and the discovery he made that first night in Madame's chamber, that his is acceptable - is what he takes for love.

Does Madame love Julien? Does she feel for the first time a desirable woman - is love this selfish, contrary to Paul's definition? Eloise. our resident psychologist thinks Julien too young and inexperienced to know what love is. Maybe we need to distinguish different degrees of love. Aren't these lovers experiencing "first love?" Does one ever get over one's first love, I find myself asking?

Eloise - "While the author is telling this not unusual tale, he is examining society accurately." It is this society - and public opinion that is driving the story, isn't it? Judy - thanks for this perspective -

Julien has little choice but to pretend to believe things he doesn't believe...If he wants to improve his lowly condition, history decrees he must be a hypocrite. In love, as in religion and politics, he must ignore the banalities he is fed and take a hungrily scientific interest in how the gears and levers of social power really work."

Traudee - thank you so much for supplying the much-needed information on society of the time - and the workings of the class system. Julien and his family were "commoners" - and not entitled to vote! I thought that Napoleon had changed all that. I guess the restoration of the Monarchy reversed all that?

Madame overhears Julien talking to himself, asking, "who will take Napoleon's place?" This must remind her that she and Julien are on different sides of the political spectrum. Stendhal writes -

"Thinking of his mistress's charms distracted Julien from his black ambition. (black!) He can't talk to her about gloomy reasonable things because they were of opposite parties."

Julien's "political party" would be - what?

LauraD - last week was a little experiment - breaking the week's reading into two segments as a way of focusing on the first few chapters, rather than the last. I can see where that might be too confining, so we'll go back to the discussion of the week's chapters all together as you prefer. Road King - this doesn't mean we won't abandon a chapter-a-day - it just means that folks are free to discuss the week's chapters (Chapters 18-23) as a whole if that works for them. Now I've managed to confuse everyone I'm sure. Let's just say that you are free to comment on any of the chapters in the discussion schedule for the week - that's fine!

Julien makes his debut this week - with help from Madame! Were you amazed that he let her dress him up in the grand honor guard get-up? After her surprise undergarment gesture, I expected a little more restraint and respect for his pride. I guess she knows him a little better now than she did before.

The Mayor seems to be more concerned with the appearance of his candidate for First Deputy in the honor guard than impressing the visiting king, doesn't he? Tell me please how you understand Moirod - Noirod - Road King - did you say yesterday he was the town jailer?

Joan, my association of black with imprisonment is taken from Chap. 3, when curé Chélan escorted Monsieur Appert on an inspection tour of Verrières' various public facilities. When they arrived at the prison, ". . . they found the gaoler" (Noiroud) "standing in the doorway; a giant six feet tall, with bandy legs; terror made his mean face hideous.".

It interests me that a mean-faced giant - with noir/black in his name - is in charge of a place of confinement. Stendhal began this tale with an allusion to confinement. In the intro. to chapter 1, remember, "the cage less gay".

This gets very interesting! Road King - is this the same Moirod who owns the three houses in the road the Mayor wants to widen. Isn't he protrayed as a devout sort? Or is this just the Mayor's description of the guy? I'd better go read that chapter again to see if Noiroud and Moirod are one and the same.

Irregardless of what the motivation of passion might be, it is a disease when one first experiences this sensation.
The craving (for whatever) causes one to become maniacal, frenzied and desirous. Now we have lust, promiscuity and lascivious behavior initiating this new-found passion of both Mme. and Julien. Ahhh youth, desire and enthusiasm for the flesh may just be the wrong web to weave.

Youthfulness, desire, all true. But this, I believe, is deeper for both lovers. There is also a genuine affection.
Their first encounter, when he reports to the house, is perhaps fated. Both are solitary people. Madame is devoted to the children but has no part or interest in mayoral affairs. Her husband does consult with her, though, as we have seen. At heart, Madame is a romantic.

Julien is insecure in this household, conscious of his low birth, introverted and suspicious by nature. Again and again when there is a misunderstanding between them, he is puts the blame on his lowly station and "these rich women". But she builds him up - in fact she does her best, and her plan of making Julien one of the honor guards for the king's visit is positively ingenious.
That, in turn, raises the suspicious of the good citizens of the town.

JOAN, the Bourbon Restauration reversed all advantages the French people gained in 1789, including the voting laws The aftermath was bloody as during Robespierre's Reign of Terror, and pains to arrive at a viable republican government. When Stendhal joined Napoleon's Italian campaign, Napoleon was a general and First Consul - but he had higher ambitions, much higher. Several brothers and sisters became kings and queens of the territories of European nations he conquered. He himself became Emperor (one step higher than king), founder of his own (short-lived) dynasty. He overextended himself militarily in the tragic campaign against Russia. His enormous rise from a rather "middlin" Corsican family with many siblings to Emperor is nothing less than stupendous. A fascinating story.

To be continued. Time for national news.

Traude S.: And the national news is just awful--truly "black." How are we to grasp and deal with such things? Great literature is supposed to help, I think. But maybe it only reminds us that horror is not unique to our age--only the available means evolve.

Someone mentioned the Terror of late 1700s France yesterday and what has happened to the gains of the Revolution by the time of the Restoration. I have found myself wondering at several points in The Red and... how all the aristocrats like the de Renals survived wthe Terror with their power and wealth apparently intact. Was it mostly aristocrats in Paris or others who suffered at the hands of Robespierre (sp?)?

Diana , the common people in France had no power under the absolute kings of France. There were actually some aristocrats who sought change. Revolutions are often started by idealists. But once they achieve what they fought for, they themselves are liable to change. So it must have been with Robespierre. He had studied law and was dedicated to revolutionary political change on moral grounds. His supporters called him"incorruptible". Power changed him too. Moderate attempts became violent actions.

He was not alone bringing about the Reign of Terror, two of his collaborators were Danton, a lawyer, and Marat, a scientist, all veered to the far left.

It is likely that many innocent people were killed in the tumultuous days, weeks and months after the revolution. But the fury of the people was directed at the nobility, especially the egregious excesses of the king and queen. Robespierre himself was arrested and executed in 1794, and Marat was stabbed to death in his bathtub he same year by Charlotte Corday, who became a heroine for taking retribution into her own hands. (What a story, this!)

Those who wanted conciliation were no doubt sincere, but different factions had different leanings. Despite the differences they agreed to abandon (!) the Gregorian calendar and, in 1793, created the Revolutionary Calendar. It took effect in the fall of 1792 (as Year I of the revolution) and was in use until 1806. All months had 30 days, at 10 days each (no weeks any more), grouped into the seasons, fall, winter, spring and summer, and were given the most colorful charming-sounding names. Sorry to digress.

Back to Stendhal. As HATS said, R&B portrays the society and mores of the time, which was Stendhal's own. Not only the plot evolves but the characters, so casually introduced in the first chapters (to which we find ourselves returning), become more nuanced, their motives more obvious, their flaws more glaring.

That goes for Monsieur Valedon, with whom the Mayor has an unsavory history, which comes to light only slowly. Hints are given in chapter 3 when M. Appert arrives from Paris early in the morning and is given access by Fr. Chélan to the prison, the hospital and the workhouse -- against written instructions sent him by the Marquis de la Mole, a peer of the realm and the richest landowner in the province, an important man whose orders are obeyed.

"I'm an old man", thinks Fr. Chélan, "They wouldn't dare." Oh but they did. That visit is what so infuriated the Mayor and M. Valenod : they had something to hide.

Fr. Chélan was removed from his priestly office though he still enjoyed the respect of the parishioners. Faher Maslon, who had had an eye on him for a time already, becomes the new priest. Fr. Chélan, we note, is Elisa's Father Confessor. And Madame had confessed to him years before Julien arrived that M. Valenod had shown amorous intentions which she had always rebuffed his advances. Fr. Chélan urged her to continue to do so.

We don't know exactly when the townspeople began to suspect a liaison between Madame and Julien. People notice little things, and many little things take on a force of their own. Then comes the message of the king's impending visit. Evey newspaper mentions it. Excitement mounts. Madame returns from Vergy in a tizzy.

Chapter 18 contains much new information for the reader and is quite funny in places, e.g. the reaction of he people who clambered on the roofs to see the arrival of the king and his entourage, the over-eager soldiers and the thunderous timely and the untimely salvos of the big canons.
We hear that there are Liberals (!) in Verrières, rich Liberals, who count and must be included in the festivities.

Fr. Maslon would dearly like to EXclude Fr. Chélan but it so happens that the Marquis de la Mole has known him for thirty years. As we see, an accommodation is reached. Fr. Chélan even manages to get an invitation for Julien to serve as his sub-deacon.

The townspeople are surprised that Julien, the carpenter's son (!), is an honor guard, riding one of Mr. Valenod's own prized Norman horses! "How inappropriate" some say, but it's a personal triumph nonetheless for Julien and for Madame.

The king wants to see the relics of Saint Stephen at Bray-le-Haut, and the Bishop of Agde is to show them to him. The bishop, only recently appointed is the nephew of the Marquis de la Mole, the most important man in the Département. Aha, thinks the reader.
Julien rushes home to shed the uniform and change into his cassock. Fr. Chélan notices with disapproval that the spurs show from under the cassock.
The king is kept waiting and the bishop nowhere to be found -- until Julien goes looking for and finds him. Much to Julien's surprise, the bishop is a young man, only a few years older than he himself. Julien takes careful note of everything around him and thinks that perhaps he should top dreaming of Napoleon and a military future. He wonders how much a bishop could make a year.
He returns his full attention to the occasion as they climb up a long flight of stairs. The description of what transpires in the "chapelle ardente" is masterful and worth rereaading. Julien is profoundly moved.

Joan, I like your idea that Standhal leaves the bigger questions open for us to ponder. If Standhal’s message for the reader is to discover the motivations and hypocrisies of a society at that time, these characters’ inner thoughts can certainly provoke in us an awareness of the how they think and make choices, even though it often sounds extreme. For me, this sets up a kind of constant controversy in my mind and an urgency to see if these characters ever grapple with anything beneath their self centered reflections on themselves alone. Joan, would you describe this as “adding another dimension to their personalities?”

Road King #252, I’m amazed at your grasp of the details and how your mention of them can invite me to look back and keep current at the same time.

Reading these entries is so “tempting!” It makes me want to reply to each one but I am a slow thinker and my students deserve some commendations and guidance in their final reports. The discussion entries I am reading here are of model of how I would like my students to express themselves in their discussion entries for their study of literature in an online course. This gives me something to strive for in guiding them in their learning-on-line. Bern

Hello bmcinnis, I am always struck dumb by a teacher's presence. Thank you for being here.

Traude, as usual, your posts are magnificent. I feel a part of the setting. You leave nothing of importance out of your posts. Julien is now enraptured by the church. By some accident he ends up carrying the Monsignor's mitre. "He felt proud to be carrying it: his pace across the hall was slow, and he held it with respect." Stendhal describes the preparation and the ceremony so precisely, I feel myself stepping along with Father Chelan, the Monsignor and Julien.

Sadly, Julien is still thinking of money, money, money. He knows the cost of the cermony at Bray-le-Haut, three thousand eight hundred francs. How much is that in today's money? I have no idea. I would also like to know more about St. Clement. The appearance of the saint, "a gaping wound...oozing blood" took me by surprise.

Julien's youth is still evident. The power of the church attracts him. Sincerity strikes a delicate balance. To find the right path, I think, there is a need for more than sincerity. Otherwise, we can make wrong choices and find ourselves fighting for the most horrible cause.

"This spectacle caused our hero to lose the last vestiges of his reason. At that moment he would have fought for the Inquisition, and in all sincerity too."

Bonjour, mes amis, A sad subdued morning here in Virginia as we learn the names of those young people who lost their lives while sitting in classrooms preparing for the future. So senseless, the mind can not grasp it and begins to despair. Some are saying that video games provided the model for the killings... are we searching for an explanation? Our prayers have to be for the families who are trying to cope with grief and loss. The rest of us must go on with our lives. (How difficult for the Virginia Tech Seniors who must finish coursework to graduate on May 12!)

Traudee - we can't thank you so much for supplying the historical background that plays such an important part in Stendhal's story. As you say, "the fury of the people was directed at the nobility, especially the egregious excesses of the king and queen." (I was quite interested in your note regarding the extent of the changes - especially the creation of the Revolutionary Calendar!)

Diana, that was an interesting question you asked yesterday - "how did all the aristocrats like the de Renals survive the Terror with their power and wealth apparently intact?" I'd been searching the society of Verrières for an answer to that very question. Who are the aristocrats with whom the Rênals hob nob? I haven't met any yet, have you? It seems that the Rênals' wealth, land, luxurious homes have been acquired through business transactions - and perhaps shady deals. These "aristocrats" seem to have acquired their wealth since the bloody revolution.

Bern - You cause us to step back from the characters in the story and consider the effect of the times on society. Only then can we return to examine the motivations of the characters Stendhal has created. I've been thinking of your question - "will they ever grapple with anything beneath their self-centered reflections on themselves alone." It does seem Julien is totally preoccupied with his own advancement, his pride, his place in society. Perhaps this is a typical for this time - Perhaps the societal upheaval has necessarily added another dimension to the personalities of the time.

"Julien is still thinking of money, money, money." hats, my first reaction to Julien's ambition to make money was that this is not unusual for the time. But what was unusual was the lack of sincerity - he has no calling to the priesthood. But he had no call to help in his father's successful business either. Nor to do honest manual work with his friend, Fouqué. It seems that his heart is in the army - Napoleon's army. But there is no Napoleon. We hear him wondering - "who will take Napoleon's place?" But there is no answer to that question.

Do you wonder about the neighboring king's visit? Traudee tells us that Napoleon's brothers and sisters became kings and queens of the territories of European nations he conquered. I wondered why Stendhal felt the need to tantalize with "king ---." His visit causes quite a turn-out in Verrières. I couldn't get over the audacity of Madame de Rênal in procuring a place for Julien in the honor guard. Alf writes that her passion is like a disease which caused her to become "maniacal." Wasn't this a sign that she had gone over the top, throwing all caution aside? I can't figure out why she felt the need to show off her young lover in this way. Surely she knew of the competition to get in that honor guard? She knew many would not be happy to see Julien in one of the few places close to the king.

Traudee - you see her actions as "ingenious" - and I'm seeing them as foolish. What do you see as her hoped-for outcome? Did she want the townspeople to suspect a liaison? Was it a matter of wanting the world to know of their affair?

As much as Julien enjoyed showing off his grand new uniform, what really captured his attention that day was the young bishop of Agde. A mitre is a symbol of the bishop's office - it would have been impossible for him to have taken part in the ceremony without it. Did you get the feeling that it was purposely being withheld from him - that is Julien hadn't taken it upon himself to find it, he would not have continued with the ceremony? Julien had every right to feel proud of that, hats The king would not have been pleased!

Traude, thank you. Somehow I have lost the link.

Here's a picture of the Bishop of Rome, wearing the bishop's miter - like the one the bishop of Agde had misplaced -

HATS, I am indebted to you. My apologies for erroneously typing "St. Stephen" instead of St. Clement. Sometimes my memory functions visually (both names have two 'e's) and it was late in the day. But that's only an explanation, not an excuse. Sorry.

I have been trying unsuccessfully to reproduce links from online references to St. Clement. With your indulgence I'll quote my actual encyclopedia instead.

Clement, Saint, or Clement of Rome (d. 101 ?) , pope (92-101 ?), first of the ecclesiastical writers called Apostolic Fathers. According to 2nd-century theologian Irenaeus, Clement was the third bishop of Rome and was personally acquainted with both St. Peter and St. Paul.
Although few details of his life are known, the high esteem in which Clement was held is evident from his Epistle to the Corinthians (c. 96, translated 1937) which was widely considered a canonical book of the Bible until the 4th century.
One of the most important documents of apostolic times, the letter is the earliest piece of Christian literature outside the New Testament for which the name, position, and date of the author are historically attested. The outbreak of disputes within the church of Corinth, where certain presbyters (elders) had been deposed, impelled the author to intervene. The letter is a valuable source of information about the life, doctrine and organization of the early Christian church.
Clement's feast day is November 23.

There is one paragraph about Clement I in

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Gosh, I hope this one works!
To be continued

Well, SOMEthing worked ! Sigh of relief. There is more, much more, info in this link (perhaps it works this time?)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/CLEMENT.htm

JOAN, it is a sad, stormy day here too, and the nation is stunned by the magnitude of this tragedy.
This is how I meant to begin the day's posting, but I was so anxious to convey information on Clement and lost time in frustration when things did not materialize at once.

I'll be back later; there are many questions to answer. Thank you.

It is remarkable - (but is it really a coincidence?) - that Julien would find himself both in the Honor Guard and among the privileged few in the "Chapelle ardente?" He has cultivated relationships with people in high places who had reason to include him in each group.

It seems everything was orchestrated to please the Marquis de Mole, who wanted to please the visiting king. It appears to me that the king was just passing through France and really wanted to pay respects to the relic of St. Clement.

Traude
, I've been reading with interest the links you provided. (Thank you!) Am puzzled after reading the link saying that he was martyred at sea...not sure if his bones were ever recovered. Stendhal indicates that the relic was one of his bones, didn't he?

The Norton Critical edition has a footnote on this -

"Not far from Grenoble (Stendhal's hometown) are the church and convent on which Stendhal may have modeled the abbey of Bray-le-Haut.
St. Clement, who is the subject of many myths, was an early bishop of Rome, where some of his alleged relics are to be found in the ancient church of St. Clement's.

Stendhal gives him here the double characters of a soldier and a saint, a waxy image and a rotten relic, to emphasize various parallels with Julien."

I'm going to venture a guess that the visiting king was on his way to Italy on this visit...and because Francis I - King of the two Sicilies had close ties to the Bourbons, I'm going to guess also that he was the visiting king - whose name Stendhal does not mention for whatever reasons.

Hats - the whole scene in the chapelle ardente* was almost too much for Julien, wasn't it? I think the Marquis de Mole outdid himself for this visit. Julien was more than affected by the beautiful young ladies - how about the arm of the gal carrying the relic? Somewhere here I found a currency table - will try to find it and bring it here when I do.

What did you all make of the young bishop of Agde? Is he to become Julien's role model?

Chapelle Ardente (Fr. "burning chapel") is the chapel or room in which the corpse of a sovereign or other exalted personage lies in state pending the burial..."

JOAN, the king's visit and the young bishop's audacity to keep him waiting at the chapelle are significant, I believe.
The bishop was a young man, only recently appointed, and the nephew of the Marquis de la Mole. Surely the Marquis had a hand in his nephew's elevation to Bishop.

It was the Bishop's task to welcome the king and give him access to the previous relics. Why did he delay his appearance then ? What about the miter ? It must have been there all the time, for Julien found it quickly enough. The Bishop was pleasant; if he covered, he did it well.

When Julien first saw him, he seemed to be practicing graceful gestures as in benediction of people. Might he perhaps have considered to show the power of the Church over the King by having him cool his heels ?

At the end of the eremony he asks the king's permission to speak. Hence it was unplanned. He deliversa powerful address to the 24 pious maidens, all young and fetching, and extracts from the fervent promise to always "be faithful to the Go who is so great and terrible, and yet so kind".
The king himself was in tears, we read. Ihe Bishop had the last word ! Julien had no idea of Madame's plans for his being an honor guard. All week long he had tried to find out what was afoot but she would not talk to him. It all came as a total surprise. He was gloriously happy. When he changes back into his cassock later, we read about his sky-blue coat, his epaulettess and the sword.

The king knew both the Marquis de la Mole, both were ultras, and the king likewise had known Fr. Chélan for 30 years. Since Fr. Chélan was thus in charge of the religious festivities (and the Mayor had to reluctantly agree), Fr. Chélan got the invitatioin for Julien to be his sub-deacon. I think events were "fated", not coincidental.

JOAN, I believe the visiting king was Charles X, the last king of the senior Bourbon line. He was the one elected with the slim margin in 1824. He refused to even consider becoming a constitutional monarch and he abdicated in 1830. All the data and details match. I will try later to post a link. IMHO, Francis I, King of the Two Sicilies is not our man.

Newsweek Magazine each week interviews a famous writer and asks his /her opinion ; My Five Most important Books etc. Another question is: A classic that, on rereading, was disappointing. This week Michael Ondaatje answered the last question as follows :"None yet. In rereading "The Red and the Black" by Stendhal, I am still stunned at how adventurous it is, full of subtle character and experimentation".

Personally, on reading chapters 18 -23 I felt time and time again:"Oh I know that person." In other words his people of 180 years ago have their counterparts today . So well does Stendhal know the various types of people that it matters not whether they live in a Monarchy, a Democracy or a Republic. Human nature is the same. Only with this type of understanding is a classic conceived.

I am really happy that I decided to reread this great work as an adult.

Judy

JUDY, what a great post! Ah yes, Michael Ondaatje ("The English Patient " and more). I agree wholeheartedly. Stendhal does not describe only external events but provides his characters' feelings, motives, etc.

JOAN, here's more abut Charles X, as promised, from my real encyclopedia.

"Charles X , (1757-1836), king of Franace (1824-30). He was the grandson of Louis XV and younger brother of kings Louis XVI and Louis XVIII.
Charles was known as Charles Philippe, comte d'Artois, until he became king. During the French Revolution of 1789 he was one of the leaders of the émigrés. He subsequently lived (1795-1814) in Great Britain.
After the accession (1814) of Louis XVIII to the French throne, Charles returned to France where he headed the ultraroyalist party of reaction. His favoritism during his reign toward the Roman Catholic Church and the aristocracy aroused great opposition, leading to the Revolution of 1830. Charles was forced to abdicate and again went into exile in Great Britain. Later he lived on the Continent."
(emphasis mine)

More later.

Oh, Judy, I am too! - happy to be reading this work as an adult - and really, really happy to be sharing the experience with all of you. You bring so much to the table!

Thank you for bringing us Michael Ondaatje's comment on Stendhal from the Newsweek article. Michael Ondaatje wrote the English Patient in which he wrote -

"A novel is a mirror walking down a road," muses one of the characters, recalling Stendhal..."

It is amazing, isn't it Judy how the mirror reflecting society reveals the same human weakness, the same thirst for power, for love and acceptance that we see in today's mirror.

I admit I'm struggling to understand some of these 19th century factions - but with your help here, it should become easier as we move along.
In these chapters we see a split within the clergy as well. Abbé Maslon doesn't want Abbé Chélan to make an appearance among the clergy. "A Jansenist, good God," he mutters. I have a footnote describing the Jansenists -

"The mid 17th century church was divided - Jansenists (after Cornelis Jansen) and the anti-Jensenists, mainly led by the Jesuits.
Jansensists tended to be austere, inflexible types who emphasized the soul's intimate relationship with God, often accused of sympathy with Protestantism. Jesuits tended to go in the direction of worldliness."

Our Julien loves Abbé Chélan - but which faction would he choose?

Traudee - it never occurred to me that the visiting king is the king of France!!! Oh my, that went over my head. I just thought he was visiting royalty, but Charles X! No wonder de la Mole was so concerned that everything went well.

I thought it was de la Mole who would have also been unhappy if his friend, the Jansenist Abbé Chélan was not among the clergy at the religious ceremony. I didn't understand that the king was a friend of the priest too. I'm not sure there was a relationship between the king and the town priest.

Yes, I remember that de la Mole's nephew is the young bishop of Agde. Too young for that office - apparently. He has to practice his benedictions. Did you notice the grim room they have assigned to him? I think there is a plot afoot - to keep the king waiting. Had Julien not located that miter, they would have had to proceed without him. What's a bishop without a miter? Imagine what de la Mole would have done then!

"Sadly, Julien is still thinking of money, money, money. He knows the cost of the ceremony at Bray-le-Haut, three thousand eight hundred francs. How much is that in today's money?" hats
I think it was you, Diana who first asked about the worth of the franc - how much would Elisa's 1000 francs per annum be worth today?

There's an endnote in the Norton Critical Edition on this - I'll type in some of it, but you have to do the math -

"The smallest sum mentioned in the book is the twenty sous Julien pays for dinner. If we transpose on the basis of a franc being worth twenty American cents, Julien will be paying four cents for a dinner. We are in the provinces...money used to be worth much more than it is today, but four cents is a very cheap dinner.

To get contemporary (1968) equivalents we had better multiply by ten. That would make Julien's dinner cost about forty cents. How much would a meal costing .40 in 1968 cost in 2008?

Can you do the math now? Elisa's annual income of 1000 francs x twenty American cents x 10 = 1968 income.

M. de la Mole paid 3800 francs for the ceremony x twenty cents American x 10 = 1968 price tag for the ceremony.

M.de Rênal is paying Julien 600 francs, Valenod is offering 800 - math anyone? After the ceremony, Valenod really wants the star of the show as his own tutor. Will the anonymous letter work? Do you think that even if there is some truth to the rumor about his wife and the tutor M. de Rênal will let him go to the Valenods'?

Thanks, Joan. I had just found that note about money equivalents in my second hand version of the Norton (I've been reading another translation but got the Norton to see if it shed more light on various matters.) I haven't checked what a 1968 $ would be worth today, but given the inflation of the '70s, I expect we'd need to add at least 60% to the prices (that likely is conservative). That would make Julien's salary of 600 fr. worth about $192, which doesn't seem like like much. I forget if it is monthly, quarterly, or what, but even monthly it is quite small. But presumably he also was getting room and board. (Did I go wrong somewhere in my conversions, folks?)

I'm also glad to be reading this novel as an adult. I've no idea what I would have made of it as an adolescent. One thing that especially struck me in reading the chapters on her dealing with the anonymous letters and her husband is what a shame she hadn't a chance to use her talents woman at that time outside the domestic scene! What a politician, CEO, etc. she would have made with that ability to understand and manipulate people like her husband. He hadn't a chance!

Also, I hope someone can explain to me the chapter on the sale of the mansion owned by the town. I didn't understand much of anything about it. Why was it put up for sale now? Who "took" whom in buying the lease, and how? Why does it reflect badly on M de Renal? I reas the chapter several times and ended up as baffled as after the first time! The incident apparently is quite significant, but I couldn't folow why.

Back in Vergy after the festivities, Julien finds in the room where M. de la Mole had stayed a petition addressed to the Marquis by M. de Cholin, who is asking to be put in charge of the lottery bureau (!) in Verrières. In a marginal note it has been endorsed by M. de Moirod. Julien feels contempt but thinks perhaps there is a lesson for him in this. Hmmmm.

Then little Stanislas-Xavier, Madame's youngest son, develops a fever that gets worse and precipitates a crisis. Madame is consumed with guilt. She fears she must pay for her sins with the life of her son. Julien, concerned but unable to calm her, swears that he will do anything she wants, even leave the household. Madame becomes hysterical when she realizes that she loves Julien more than her own child. For the first time they become aware of the depth of their feeling for the other. It brings them closer emotionally. They call it love.

Madame is on the verge of confessing all to the Mayor, who comes home to Vergy to see his son. He misses what would be obvious to one with a better understanding of his wife and leaves. Julien pleads with her to keep their secret.

Elisa is the scorned woman. She feels humiliated by Madame in whom she had confided. She is livid with Julien who refused to marry her. She knows that Valenod despises Julien, in fact has been jealous of him all along. Julien has no use for Valenod either.
In a tête-à-tête with Valenod Elisa reveals to him everything she knows.

The arrival of the anonymous letter (chapter 20) makes matters worse and more urgent. Not knowing how to counter this, Madame has Julien write a "new" anonymous letter addressed to her, but the harm done by the one sent to the Mayor is irrevocable. Then she conceives an intricate plan to bring about both an end to the affair and Julien's departure under favorable circumstances. There are a few hurdles to overcome first. The sale of the house is part of Madame's grand design.

I completely understand Madame's guilt, Traudee - considering her upbringing in the convent school, she has been infused with the familiar Catholic guilt that she prevents her from praying for her son's health. Why would God hear her prayers, the prayers of the guilty woman. She actually believes that Stanislaus' illness is God's way of punishing her!

HOWEVER, I find it difficult to understand how she can turn her back on the dying child for Julien. She is unable to barter with God for her son's life. I can understand how she would crack under the strain of this realization. I don't think that the future seminarian has the same religious sensitivity as she does, do you? Wouldn't you think a young man in this situation with his whole life in front of him would want to flee for the nearest door? Is this love?

Once the letter arrives, Julien suspects the contents. He seems more concerned about his name and situation than about Madame's mental health, doesn't he? He enlists her aid to persuade her husband that the anonymous letter is without basis. As you say, Diana - even Julien is surprised at her cool-headed plan to convince her husband of their innocence. Is this a new-found ability to manipulate and deceive or do you think it has been there all along - part of her personality?

I'm wondering if she doesn't take part in the sale of the house at her husband's request - and to prove that she is in his corner. There is something very odd about the sale - nor do I understand Madame's role. It seems the Mayor wanted the house because it was in the good commercial part of town...but the new vicar Maslon wanted it too. Not only did the Mayor want the house, but he wanted it far below its worth. Somehow this is where Madame got involved. It was interesting to see the two conferring on this - I don't think he has included her in past dealings. Why this one? Maybe he needed money from her?

Joan, thanks for all you are doing to keep this discussion going.

I have been puzzling over the questions about the house. I don't think it was the Mayor who wanted it - I think he was coerced by the Bishop to get it for Maslon for below-market price. The reason I say this is because Maslon bragged that he would get it for 300 francs and then apparently the Mayor objected at which point Frilair ordered the Mayor to go see the Bishop. The Mayor did so and returned several hours later much distressed with the posters regarding the ((fixed) auction. At the auction an outsider (Grogeot)ruined the scheme by bidding 320 francs, then at the last minute Saint-Giraud bid 330 bringing the house back into the hands of the Church/Mayor. Someone then remarks "That's 30 francs Grogeot's rashness has cost the town . .". I think this is because the town pays for the lodging for the Cure (Maslon) and now the town has to pay 330 instead of 300.

I think the overall point of this story is once more showing the corruption and politicization of the church - and the reciprocity between the church and aristocracy. And, of course, it once more affirms for Julien that there is deceit everywhere, that he can trust no one, and that he needs to hide his true feelings/loyalties.

Glencora - thank you for taking the time to help untangle the deal with the house. I'm doing my best to follow, although my real interest lies in Madame's part in the whole thing. Wasn't it unusual for the Mayor to include his wife in his dealings?

The Mayor, as Traudee has explained, is an "Ultra" - the Ultras are in cahoots with the Church. (Well, not the Jansenist, Abbé Chélan - but look what happened to him for not particpating in the coverups and crooked deals going on in the town.)

OK, so the Mayor wants this great house, right across the street from the Church for the new priest, Maslon far below what it is worth. He puts up the signage announcing the auction (as I recall he has dated the notices two weeks earlier than the signs are put up.) He thought he'd get the house for 300 francs when no one was looking. The town would have paid for it, is this right? After this, I'm still lost, but I do see pressure on the Mayor from the Church - to get the house for Maslon.

As Glencora says, Julien sees this sort of deceit and gauche behavior from the nouveau riche - while he's living in Verrières. He really is quite a little snob, isn't he - when you consider his background? Or does he have good reason for being turned off at their behavior?

I find him too delighted with his own performance at the tables of the rich. There was only one man he met in Verrières - one "honest man" - a Jacobin - a geometer (?) named M. Gros. Can anyone explain "Jacobin"? I gather he is not a liberal as the others whom Julien regards with such disdain.

Wikipedia discusses Jacobin as follows:

In the context of the French Revolution, a Jacobin originally meant a member of the Jacobin Club (1789-1794), but even at that time, the term Jacobins had been popularly applied to all promulgators of extreme revolutionary opinions: for example, "Jacobin democracy" is synonymous with totalitarian democracy.

Of the Jacobin club, Wikipedia says:

The Jacobin Club was the largest and most powerful political club of the French Revolution. It originated as the Club Breton, formed at Versailles as a group of Breton deputies to the Estates General of 1789. At the height of its influence, there were between five and eight thousand chapters throughout France, with a membership estimated at 500,000. After the fall of Robespierre the club was closed.

Somehow, that isn't quite what I expected from the context in which Stendhal uses it here.

Initially moderate, after the death of Mirabeau the club became notorious for its implementation of the Reign of Terror and for tacitly condoning the September Massacres. To this day, the terms Jacobin and Jacobinism are used as pejoratives for left-wing revolutionary politics.

Julien only pretends to disdain the liberals--it is a part of his hypocrisy act. The liberals are those that support Napoleon. The only books Julien had to read at home, besides the Bible, were books about Napoleon, who is his idol and who Julien tries to imitate. Since Napoleon has fallen from power, Julien must pretend to disdain all such ideas, but they keep slipping out at times. The Jacobins started as a positive--they advocated universal manhood suffrage, popular education, and separation of church and state, but like most revolutions went too far--the reign of terror. Napoleon was a more moderate reformer.

Who or what is a Geometer?

Julien became very upset about M. Valenod stopping the singing during the dinner at the Valenod's dinner party. As a matter of fact, he dropped a tear. Probably, Julien was reminded of his days at home with his fathers and brothers. This was a time when the smallest happiness was taken from him by his family or by the unexpected meetings with the nobility. Singing brings happiness to the workers. It's a release from the daily grind, the humiliations and the low pay for their families. Julien escaped emotional and physical pain by reading. No matter how high up the ranks of success Julien climbs, a part of Julien will never forget his past.

Hats, that is so true: "No matter how high up the ranks of success Julien climbs, a part of Julien will never forget his past". do you ever forget your past? I don't forget my childhood.

I was busy in Curious Minds this past week but I read the posts, this morning, after Joan's kind reminder, I wanted to say just a few things that struck me. Madame de Renal had hidden some money in the "grotte" in the forest. Even is she was a rich women, she still had to hide money from her husband. What about today? is this still done? Why yes I think, it still happens.

In Chapter XXV111 first paragraph is so well put. Even if Julien pretended to be small and stupid, he couldn't please anyone, he was too different. Nevertheless, he said to himself, all those professors are fine and chosen people among a thousand; why don't they like my humility?.

I don't find Julien humble at all, but he thinks he is, he uses that false humility to gain respect.

Eloise, I don't think Julien is humble either. Boy, his self evaluation is off the mark.

We had a lovely start to the day - sunny and warm (no coats to get through check-in!), a ride to the airport from son #4, sweet thing to get up that early and everything was smooth and on time - until Charlotte. We sat on the tarmac - over 100 degree inside the plane - for 15 minutes, until we deplaned. Now we wait for another plane to become available! Oh, another nice thing that happened today - Charlotte has complimentary Internet access, so I am able to read your posts while I wait. Not sure how long I'll have, but intend to keep it short anyway!

Diana - The information on the Jacobins sure helps and provides insights into the secret recesses of Julien's mind - So the Jacobins are a political club - with extreme revolutionary leanings. Still in operation since the Revolution. We know this because M.Gros is one. And we know that Julien admires Gros - "an honest man." With the exception of M. Chelan, I'm not sure he admires anyone else's honesty, do you? Fouque, maybe.

"Jacobin and Jacobinism are used as pejoratives for left-wing revolutionary politics."

This is something that Julien must conceal from everyone. Do you think he's a closet-Jacobin, Diana? Remember when Madame caught him wondering aloud who would take Napoleon's place?

As boookworm relates, Napoleon started out fighting for the people, the common man - and the liberals supported Napoleon. But golly, boookworm - if Julien is pretending disdain for the liberals, I think he's quite an actor. Liberals are the people's party, but everywhere Julien looks, he sees them profiting from the poor. I can't believe he admires any of these people! In fact, they make the aristocrats look good, don't you think? Remember, the only honest person he has met while living in Verrieres amid the liberals - is a Jacobin! Now boookworm, please straighten me out! How is Julien pretending to disdain them?

hats, Eloise - will catch up with you tonight - the plane is here that will take us to that grandbaby!

Sorry folks but not only Napoleon influenced Julien. In chapter 5 it mentions the following :".....the Confessions of Rousseau. It was the only book by whose help his imagination endeavored to construct the world."

. Lets take a look at some of Rousseaus ideas.I quote from the Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

"Jean Jacques Rousseau is one of the most influential thinkers in the Enlightment in 18th century Europe. His first, A Discourse on the Sciences and Arts" won him fame and recognition and laid the groundwork for a second work . This work was The Discourse on the Origin of Inequality.. The central claim of this work is that human beings are basically good by nature, but were corrupted by the complex historical events that resulted in present day civil society."

"Rousseaus praise of nature is a theme that continues throughout his later works as well, the most significant of which are Emile (the philosophy of Education) and The Social Contract (Political Philosophy) These works caused great controversy in France and were banned by Paris authorities.."

"Rousseau greatly influenced Immanuel Kants work on ethics."

Since I am personally familiar only with" Emile "(A great work on education) I can see that it made Julien an excellent teacher. How the other works influenced him we have to see as we go along

If someone is familiar with the other works of Rousseau they may want to enlighten us.Undoubtedly Stendhal knew Rousseaus ideas and utilized them in his fiction.

Judy

A geometer is a mathematician whose area of study is geometry. (from Wikipedia).

Aren't we learning a lot of interesting stuff as we pursue our friend Julien and his adventures in 19th c. France?!

Judy, thanks for pointing out how Julien was influenced by Rousseau as well as Napoleon.

We finally made it to see the baby, but not before getting some balloons and a swing (they wore out the old one on the other three.) I can't tell you how beautiful he is - not a small baby, over 8 lbs, but I wasn't prepared for how tiny he would be! Just a little ball of a boy! I held him for an hour before we came over to the hotel. I'd almost forgotten how good it feels to hold a newborn - half of him is still with the angels.

Eloise - Julien, our Julien - humility! I had to read your post twice to figure that one out - I see your reference to Chapter 28. I think you've gone ahead of us - and I think he's just pretending humility to get on in the seminary - wait till we catch up with you and see if you agree.

But hats - those do seem to be real tears Julien sheds for the prisoners who are not allowed to sing. Not pretending. Sometimes I wonder at his well-timed tears - but not this time.

Maribeth, I agree, we are learning a lot here. I have a footnote from the Norton Critical edition on the goemeter - a mathematician as you say. I remember from his autobiography that Stendhal was a math whiz - and this is what enabled him to get out of Grenoble to study. He enlisted instead. Here's the footnote -

" Gros was the actual name of a man who tutored young Stendhal in geometry at Grenoble and thus enabled him to excape from his native town. Stendhal never ceased to hold him in grateful esteem."

Gros you might remember was the one honest man in Verrieres.

Judy - thanks for the reminder of Rousseau's influence on Julien. You mention his "Confessions" - which was an autobiography. That must have had an effect on him.

There was something you posted about Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin of Inequality - "The central claim of this work is that human beings are basically good by nature, but were corrupted by the complex historical events that resulted in present day civil society."

There's truth in this - I think. It's what Stendhal is writing about in Le Rouge, don't you think? Is this what finally happened to Napoleon? Julien admires Napoleon the revolutionary but what does he think of him k now?

Joan--Guess I am confused about who is a liberal in the novel. Agree that Julien has genuine disdain for the money-grubbing exploiters of the poor, but I was thinking that they were royalists sympathizers. At Valenod’s party after they silence the singing of the poor-- the dinner party struck up a royalist song. At the start of chapter 23:

public opinion is terrifying in a country that has the Charter....public opinion of your town--which is created by idiots whom chance has caused to be born noble, ...

The note says the Bourbon Charter, the Constitution of 1814, could be seen as giving substantial power to local men of substance--as here. I am mixed up about the complexities of French politics and would love to have someone explain it.

Maribeth and Judy, thank you for the information about Rousseau and the geometer. JoanP, I believe Julien's tears are very real. I tried to explain how he could identify with the singers because he had experienced pain in his own life. My post might have been confusing because I feel, at times, he does have a "false humility." This is why I agreed with Eloise. I was not speaking about his tears at the dinner table during the singing.

Where is Traude? I hope she is not ill. Along with the other posts, I enjoy hers as well.

Looking more carefully at the relationship between the Sorels and the de Rênals I think I perceive a sub-plot in this story that I’ve been overlooking.

1. Old Sorel got the better of M. de Rênal in two separate business transactions. Sorel was clever in the negotiations but more than that, I think he was COMPELLED to CONQUER the mayor by a deep-seated feeling of ancestral humiliation.

2. Julien stole the affections of the mayor’s wife. He thus overcame the subservient role to which he had been assigned and he demoted the aristocratic mayor to the role of a cuckhold.

Those competitions and victories hinted at a significance that had escaped me until Judy reminded us of Rousseau's influence on Julien.

In chapter 4: “I do not wish to be a servant”, Julien told his father when he was informed that M. de Rênal had offered to hire him as a tutor and pay him a salary – plus room and board.

Old Sorel retorted, “who ever spoke of your being a servant? Would I allow my son to be a servant?”

What’s behind this strong feeling that both father and son have against servanthood?

Becoming a tutor may have been an attractive prospect but, in Julien’s mind, room and board in the de Rênal household was a deal breaker. Julien had derived this horror and repugnance to eating with servants from reading Rousseau's Confessions.

Ok, Julien’s aversion to servanthood came from reading Rousseau but his illiterate father had never heard of Rousseau. Old Sorel had acquired his aversion to being perceived as a servant by a more natural process – through ancestral memory. In chapter 1 we learned that M. de Rênal comes from an old Spanish family, “established in the country long before Louis XIV conquered it”. Then Stendhal told us in chapter 4 that Old Sorel’s ancestors, the original inhabitants of the country, had been slaves during the Spanish rule.

I think servants, serving and servanthood is a recurring theme that’s been running through the story. The son of a carpenter, averse to servanthood, yet propelled by forces beyond his control to get a job in the church where, presumably, serving is the first order of business.

ROAD KING, those are excellent observations. Clearly there are several layers and subplots on which the main plot is built. Every single sentence has meaning, nothing can be overlooked.
JOAN P, bookworm, glencora , JUDY and HATS, thank you all for your insights.

The first two paragraphs of Chapter 23 are general reflection, but oh are they ever pointed !

"Let us, however, leave this little man (Rênal!) to his little fears. Why has he taken a man of spirit (that would be Julien) into his house, when all he needed was one with the soul of a lackey ? Why doesn't he know how to choose his people ?
In the nineteenth century, when an influential man of good family meets a man of spirit, in the ordinary course of events he either has him put to death, condemned to exile or imprisonment, or humiliates him in such a way that the fellow is foolish enough to die of grief.
In this instance, by chance, the man of spirit is not the one to suffer." (emphasis mine)

Julien, always suspicious, overhears the Rênals' "frequent mention of a certain large house which belongs to the commune of Verrières." Initially Julien thinks it might be for his "successor" - (!)

Then the mayor hastily sets off for Besançon and returns with a package of posters, all dated two weeks earlier (!), wich are affixed in various locations. There is clerical involvement on the highest level: The curé Maslon, M. de Frilair, the Vicar-general, and the Bishop.

At the end "the auctioneer assigned the house for the next nine years to M. de Saint-Giraud, senior clerk in the prefect's office."
It was a done deal from the very beginning.

But I wonder how M. Maslon, a priest, had the auhority to promise the house to ANYONE ?
Why is such an important matter brought up now in such haste ? Is it because the mayor, whose greed and unsavory tactics have been well known, is now more vulnerable and distracted by defending his reputation as rumors are swirling of his wife's liaison with Julien ?

It seems that this has nothing to do with Madame's scheme.
Did Stendhal weave this into the story only to show us the extent of corruption in the France of his time ? Who knows ?

Bonjours, mes amis!

One tired grandmother checking in - though I love these little ones, I'm out of practice - especially with a new born! Last evening Bruce and I babysat the four of them while the new parents went out for dinner. The newborn required the usual multiple changings, feeding and rocking - the two year old and almost four year old boys were off the wall, the nearly six year old granddaughter could have used more attention - but was a welcome third grandparent on the scene. Dinner with them was something that should have been videotaped! By the time we returned to the motel, both of us went right to sleep!

Bright and early, I got up and read your posts of yesterday and find them really helpful in getting things into perspective. As much as we understand this, we understand what is motivating Julien. I think that his environment is much to blame for his hypocrisy...which is a sort of defense mechanism.

boookworm - I'm as confused as you are about the blurred lines between the different classes. We need to hear from some of the others - do you see the Valenods among the liberals? "Royalist sympathizers"? It seems that the liberals started out to support "the people" - but many of them have done very well, gained much during the Restoration. Have they become "Royalist sympathizers" as well?

As you quoted - public opinion is terrifying - especially to M. de Renal, who will now do anything to silence the tongues and protect his wife's honor - and his own. He will even pay to get Julien out of town. Perhaps his biggest fear is to see Julien in Valenod's employ. But it is clearly time to see him out of Verrieres! One of the highlights of Chapter 23 for me was when Julien turned down de Renal's offer to pay his way in the seminary! Priceless. The man, not Julien this time, wept.

Road King, you give us much to think about. After reading your post I find myself coming to the conclusion that the aristocracy and the liberals are not nearly as significant in the scheme of things - as the power wielded by the Church - and by those "servants," the commoners" you speak about. I still cannot decide where Julien fits into this whole scheme of things. He is most insulted when treated as a servant, isn't he? Can his real destiny be the Church? Will he find himself in the seminary in Besançon? Stay tuned...

- hats - remembering Julien's real tears when the prisoners' singing was silenced (why was this so disturbing to Valenod?) - I'm reminded of the real joy he felt when Signor Geronimo came to entertain at Vergy. There was a lesson to be learned - (did Julien get it?) - from his story of how he escaped the conservatory in exchange for his singing career. What we do know is that he concludes he would "rather be a Geronimo than a Renal. He's not so much respected by society, but he doesn't have shame..."

Traudee - the man of power has met the man of spirit - thank heavens he exiles him, rather than kills him. I suppose that to kill him would be to recognize his wife's complicity. No, he'll challenge Valenod instead while defending his wife's honor. I don't like the idea of those loaded pistols, ready for the duel in the house.

Your question about the power of the Church over the aristocracy, Maslon over the Mayor is an example of the power of the Church at this time. But then, as Road King shows us, the commoner, M. de Saint-Geraud outfoxes the plans of the Mayor - and the Church!

"Did Stendhal weave this into the story only to show us the extent of corruption in the France of his time," you ask. Or did he weave it in to show the advantage an honest man has over all of the powerful and monied?

Let's follow Julien into Besançon, shall we? Again we get some idea of his true passion. This seems to be the first time he's ever been out of Verrieres....

" What a difference for me, said he with a sigh, if I were coming into this splendid military town in order to serve as a sublieutenant in one of the regiments charged with defending it."

Joan, I was struck by the similarity between some of the so-called liberals--those who where anti-royalist, at least--and what happened in Russia and other countries that had either a monarchy or a dictator and then went through a revolution, ending up with a Communist government. After some time, those in the new government who started out as "the people" often become greedy in their new position of power and operate more in their personal interest than in the interest of "the people," eventually becoming rich at the expense of other folks. Is that similar to what has happened in post-Revolutionary France with the confusion of classes?

Roadking: Good point about the servants. I had been thinking about why it had been so important to Julien and his father that, as part of the deal by which Julien would be hired, he would eat at the family table, not with the servants.

At another spot, M. de Renal tells his wife something to the effect that anyone working for him and his wife, including the tutor, is considered a servant.

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Mme. de Renal seems to have her own money which she spends upon certain things. It seems her money and that of her husband are very distinct and to spent on specific things. Does anyone know anything about this - the law re the money a French wife in this period brings to the marriage?

MARNI, Madame came into the marriage with money, perhaps more than her husband had at that time, and she was the sole designated heir of her aging aunt. The mayor thought of that expected inheritance rather often and impatiently.

Madame paid for the exterior modifications of the garden path of the country house in Vergy with her own money, probably well knowing that her parsimonious husband would have objected. He was very unhappy when he returned from town. But evidently there were no legal barriers to her spending her own money as she did.

"For thousands of years ... the best red (that) artists knew was ochre, the Cro-Magnon's pigment, which produced a color that was muddied with orange and brown." (Kinda sounds like the reddish-brown color, sorrel, doesn't it?)

"Sometime before the fifth century BC, painters in Asia discovered that a more satisfactory red could be made from the mineral cinnabar. Cinnabar did have several disadvantages: it was expensive, poisonous, and had a disconcerting propensity to turn black with exposure to light."

The unstable cinnabar was eventually replaced with the most vivid red the world had ever seen when, in 1519, the Spanish conquistadors found the Aztecs selling a red dye, cochineal, in Mexico. For a long time Spain had the monopoly on this dye. It made Spain rich.

(Quoted and paraphrased from "A Perfect Red: Empire, Espionage, and the Quest for the Color of Desire" by Amy Butler Greenfield)

Hmmm. The Spanish (including ancestors of Monsieur de Rênal) got rich from dealing in red dye. Do you suppose ... naahh! That can't have anything to do with this book's title.

Road King: I had thought cochineal was from a shell. I looked it up. Nope, it's from an insect:

"Cochineal is the name of both crimson or carmine dye and the cochineal insect (Dactylopius coccus), a scale insect in the suborder Sternorrhyncha, from which the dye is derived."

For more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochineal

Carmen (or carminis) was a new vocabulary word in Latin this week. I expected it to mean "red" in Latin, but, nope, it means "song."

I was curious about the epigraphs preceding each chapter - according to the notes many of them were just made up by Stendhal and then attributed to authors who sounded as if they were the appropriate authors but in reality did not write them.

At any rate, I discovered an Appendix A in my translation which explains that Stendhal thought the function of an epigraph was to "augment the sensation, the emotion of the reader, if there is emotion there" rather than to add philosophical judgments. Therefore, Stendhal wrote them for that purpose - also, according to the Appendix, they "scatter a kind of secondary cultural prestige around the text."

Now that I know that, I find that reading the epigraphs has more meaning and (in most instances) I am finding the emotional undertone of the chapter enhanced for me.

Glencora, I love books with epigraphs! I read the epigraph before the chapter and then again after I have read the chapter. Without exception, I have found that they enhance my reading of any novel that includes them. Thanks for the additional information on the epigraphs in The Red and the Black.

Chapter 24.

FYC #1: Is Stendhal drawing our attention to the little plaster bust of the king in the rough billiard café in this military city to establish the idea that politics and attitudes in Besançon are sympathetic to royalty, that is, to aristocracy and the ultras? Or, is Stendhal just having a little fun with us. Soon after Julien studies the BUST of the king, look what follows.

FYC #2: Julien told the barmaid he has just met that he loves her. Way out of his element in this Besançon café, he’s nervous and overstimulated. Too timid to even order coffee, he overreacts to the barmaid’s kindness in trying to make him comfortable in these strange surroundings. He’s feeling many different emotions as he processes all these new stimuli. He speaks to the BUXOM barmaid about one of the things he’s feeling, and calls it violent love.

Bonjour mes amis!

This morning is a travel day, big storms heading to Memphis so not certain how much of it will be spent in the airport. Wish us luck - please! Husband doesn't do well waiting for planes to take off.

I believe Stendhal would love to be auditing this discussion - I'm getting such a kick out of reading the "red" connections you are making - the Spanish red dye, the cochineal - is it from the insect's blood? I think Stendhal would dig the close reading of his "ROUGE"!

Marni, I'll agree with Traudee, M. de Renal has his eye on his wife's future inheritance, so he won't interfere with her spending now. I don't know the law - I'll bet there's something that provides for her sons in the will. Maybe all of it goes to them?

Diana - "those who started out as 'the people' often became greedy in their new position of power and operate more in their own personal interest." Do you think this describes Napoleon's rise to power? The more I think about it, the more I see this as Julien's true ambition. To start out the poor boy, like Napoleon, accomplish greatness and finally make all of those who were condescending bend to his power. Except he can't figure out the means to get to that position. He seems to be acting without a script. At the moment, the best option seems to be the Church.

I'm not sure I agree that Julien is overacting when he tells Amanda, the barmaid, that he loves her "with the most violent love." I think he is flirting outrageously. He has spotted a beautiful girl who is leaning over the bar towards him obviously displaying her breasts for his eyes and he is playing along. Amanda's figure has brought to mind his recent activities with Mme de Renal. "The thought of the passion of which he had been the object nearly freed him from all his timidity." Julien even asks Amanda to hold a bunch of violets in her hand when he passes by to show him she is thinking of him.

I am seeing that Julien may be timid in new situations, of which there are plenty, but that his nature is to be BOLD. We've seen a number of situations where he dares himself to go nearly too far to see how much he can get away with.

Based on this weeks brilliant chapters I have come to a decision of the meaning of the Red and the Black. I will quote from the book.

Chapt 27: "The reader will kindly excuse us if we give very clear and definite facts concerning this period of Julien's life. It is not that we lack facts; quite the contrary. But it may be what he saw in the seminary is too black for the medium color which the author has endeavored to preserve throughout theses pages."

The second quote is from the Intro to Book Two : "Shes not pretty, shes not wearing rouge."

In my mind these two things joined to say that the Black is the Sacred and the Red is the Profane. The seminary , the church and its machinations are truly so hypocritical as presented here that they are supposedly sacred but are only black in uniform and nature.. The Rouge symbolizes the profane; sexual assignations, Paris and womens' cheeks.

These are my thoughts and perhaps other readers will agree or disagree . We have come up with many theories and for me, this one makes the most sense as the personality of the writer becomes clearer and what he is trying to portray becomes more obvious.

Judy

I couldn’t help but think of an old American western while reading Chapter 24. I don’t think I have ever watched a western, but did watch Gunsmoke with my Dad as a kid. Anyway, in a western, a new man comes to town, meets a pretty woman in a saloon, the woman’s boyfriend enters the joint, and then all persons involved must tread carefully to prevent a fight. … Julien comes to town, professes his love to Amanda, Amanda’s boyfriend enters the café, and Julien wants to duel.

A bit more on contrasts in the book…

In last week’s reading, the emotions of both Julien and Madame Renal swung from one extreme to the other. Each of their emotions were conflicting (or contrasting).

Could we say that bigger Besancon is a contrast to the small town of Verrieres?

I am still working out the meaning of the contrasting title. I do think that after reading Chapter 27, that black could be the church. I still have not completed this week’s reading, so haven’t come to Judy’s quote on red yet. I think the meaning will be clear by the time we finish the book.

Judy, I'm considering your theory. Let's see if I understand you.

Sacred (Christianity in its most primitive, "orthodox" form) stands in opposition to the Profane (extra-marital sex, vanity, etc.). Using your color coding, that relationship can be seen as Black=Sacred vs Red=Profane.

Are you saying that Stendhal's title suggests a thesis that the church is nominally in opposition to the profane but, in practice, is a profane institution? Black=Sacred (Christianity) has been Profaned. That is, Black has become Red.

Well, I like your theory better than some of the others. The Sacred and the Profane appeals to me more than The Military and the Clergy. Let's keep reading to see all the evidence that Stendhal is going to present before declaring our verdict.

- Glencora - thank you for drawing our attention to the epigrams. I know that LauraD loves these - but her area of concentration in this discussion is to look for contrasts. How about we make you official epigramist, with assistance from the peanut gallery, of course?

I have a footnote in the Norton Critical Edition - that says that Sainte Beuve did not write the one that precedes Book Two - "She isn't pretty, but she wears no rouge." This isn't the first time he uses this - the epigram for Book I, Chapter 14 was the best, I think -
"A girl of sixteen had a rose colored complexion and wore rouge."
This was attributed to Polidori - a footnote to that epigram says that Polidori didn't write that one either.

Somewhere I read that Stendhal wrote very quickly - did very little research - and that some of these mis-attributions were due to faulty memory - others he did on purpose to get at his enemies. Not sure what is going on with this one. How about the "rouge" - maybe rouge of the title is just plain old rouge?

Road King takes us today into the billiards café, where Julien declares his love for the barmaid. Is she wearing rouge? -Only you, RK! Making the connection between the bust of the king and the barmaid's busom - and a buxom busom at that!

Besançon - a military city - with royalist loyalties... The name of this chapter is "A Capital City" - capital of what? Does anyone know?

LauraD, love the Gunsmoke analogy to the scene in the café - both you and Marni see Julien as flirting with the wench - "outrageously." An experienced guy with the ladies now, as Marni says, he dares himself to see how far he can go!

Judy - will enter "Sacred and Profane" into our growing list of red/black interpretations in the heading. There are so many references to "black" in the seminary scenes in chapter 2 that we really cannot overlook them. I saw something a little different though - I saw darkness, I saw lack of light, of life - I saw "DEATH" in this seminary. And as Laura is looking for contrasts, in Julien, I see the flirting, lust, anger - remember when the tailor dared touch his back in chapter 2, "he became 'red' with anger." I think I'm going to enter PASSION to the list, DEATH and PASSION. (Maybe even Death and Life, but not too sure about that yet LIFE yet.)

I wonder just how many times we are going to change our minds before the story ends.

What did you think of the other seminarians? I was expecting a different class, perhaps - the second sons of the gentry who would not inherit the land. Too English, perhaps. These young seminarians in Post-Revolutionary France were not what I was expecting at all.

JUDY's theory regarding the meaning of 'black' and 'red' is very plausible, especially that of 'red'. I believe there is little doubt that 'black' represents the clergy. As we read on we may yet discover other symbolic meanings. But this is a good one.

ROAD KING too has a point, I believe. Julien becomes resigned to leaving Verrières only because Madame has ordered him to go, and he leaves with extreme reluctance.
He has never seen anything like Besançon and is hugely impressed. He walks up and down the street, probably with feelings of awe and apprehension. He is excited and stimulated by what he has seen so far and the barmaid in the bar is the first person he speaks to in the city.

He says to her "I have been sent (to the seminary), implying (accurately) that someone MADE him come, he is there not really of his own volition.

I believe that his heedless declaration (that he is "passionately in love" with this yong woman he just met) was made in the same spirit of overexcitement. She doesn't take him seriously at all and pushes him out the door after another lover's arrival.

After passing by the Hotel des Ambassadeurs twice, he goes in and talks to the landlady. She agrees to keep his clothes for him and stuffs his pockets full of food because he is too excited to eat.

JOAN, Besançon is a provincial capital, i.e. the capital city in the Doubs Départment of Franche-Comté province.

There is a great deal of new information in this week's chapters (on the Marquis de la Mole and the Vicar-General, for example), as well as great character studies of the priests in the seminary, the other seminarians and their attitude toward Julien (which keeps changing).

I read several chapters in the eye doctor's waiting room this afternoon but had to stop after they put in those dreadful drops. In fact, their effect is only just wearing off --after all these hours !

I am confused about life in the seminary. There seems to be only a minority of seminarians with true piety. My impression is that the seminary is a place where one is sure to receive nutritious meals and warm clothing. This is the reason to be happy at acceptance in the seminary. Many of the seminarians haven't been educated in Latin. Julien is far more educated than the others in the seminary. I feel that Julien was safer on the streets of Bensacon than in the seminary. There is an undercurrent of meanness and politics. I would like to better understand the life in a seminary.

Isn't Abbe Pirard guilty of opening Julien's mail???

I thought St. Francis loved the birds and animals. Anyway, this statement went waaay over my head.

"St Francis when he received the stigmata on Mount Verna in the Apennines."

I see now there are some youths at the seminary with a "robust faith." Are these in the majority or the minority???

Hats: I didn't know anything about St. Francis and the stigmata either. Here's a blurb from Wikipedia:

"While he was praying on the mountain of Verna, during a forty day fast for Lent, Francis was reported to have received the Stigmata on 13 September 1224, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross. "Suddenly he saw a vision of a seraph, a six-winged angel on a cross. This angel gave him the gift of the five wounds of Christ." This is the first known account of the stigmata. However, no one knew about this occurrence until after his death, when Thomas told a crowd of Franciscans that he had witnessed this account.

Suffering from these Stigmata and from an eye disease, he had been receiving care in several cities (Siena, Cortona, Nocera) to no avail. In the end he was brought back to the Porziuncola. He was brought to the transito, the hut for infirm friars, next to the Porziuncola. Here, in the place where it all began, feeling the end approaching, he spent the last days of his life dictating his spiritual testament. He died on the evening of 3 October 1226 singing Psalm 141."

Scroll down in the article to find the Giotto painting "St. Francis Receives the Stigmata."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi

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It is quite startling to see that so many young men are going to seminary simply for a career, as some joined the military or as others went into trade. We see the church was not just for the pious who looked to help others and do good works. Julien is a prime example.

Hats, your post #317 about the seminarians was right on. I am assuming that this really was the way things were in the seminary in France around 1830. Who knew?!? After reading Chapter 27, I am feeling sympathetic toward Julien; yes, me who found him to be quite an unsympathetic character early on. In the last paragraph of Chapter 27, the narrator comments, “We fear that we may weary our reader by a narration of the thousand and one misfortunes of our hero.” Well, I don’t find myself weary, at least not yet. I am sure you all will hear from me if I become weary though! LOL!

I'm with you, hats, Marni - surprised at the seminarians themselves. Maybe I didn't expect too much religiosity (is there such a word?) - but I did expect there to be more of the sons of the middle or upper class among them.

LauraD - do you think the seminaries in England at the time are similar, or is France experiencing the aftermath of the Revolution and then Restoration?

It doesn't appear that Julien had high expectations when he entered - I hadn't known that until he said as he entered the first night - "So this is the hell on earth from which I can never escape."

Julien notes there were some excessively pious fellows, who worked themselves sick. There were a few, a very few bright ones with talent, but he didn't like them and they didn't like him much either. He mentions one by name, Chazel. (I have a footnote that tells he was a schoolmate of Stendhal's - in Grenoble.)

It's the rest of them that surprise me - the majority are "gross creatures" I had to laugh here when Julien disdainfully describes them as "sons of peasants who preferred to earn their daily bread by repeating a few Latin words instead of swinging a pickax." Isn't he describing himself?

Thank you for information on Besançon, Traudee...here's a bit more. Not only the capital of Franche-Comté, but the Archdiocese of the Church since 1822.

"Archdiocese coextensive with the departments of Doubs, Haute-Saône, and the district of Belfort. Few nineteenth-century dioceses have undergone similar territorial changes. The Concordat of 1802 gave the Diocese of Besançon all those districts which, in 1822, constituted the Diocese of St. -Claude. In 1806, Besançon was given jurisdiction over the three parishes of the principality of Neufachatel (Switzerland) which fell under the control of the See of Lausanne in 1814. Besançon

Besançon and the Franche-Comté region are also the birthplace of numerous historic personages. Among these are Victor Hugo; the realist painter, Gustave Courbet; Louis Pasteur; and the fathers of cinematography, the Frères Lumière.

A city of eastern France east of Dijon. It is an industrial center noted for the manufacture of clocks and watches. Population: 118,000.
Panoramic view of Besançon from the Citadel designed by Vauban, the renowned military architect of the 17th century

I've added the new entries to the table of our interpretations of the RED and the BLACK - it will be interesting to go back to it when we are through to see what we think then. Maybe we can vote - but wouldn't it be fantastic if we arrived at a group interpretation that we are all happy with at the end?

I've been talking about the new grandson often enough - will post his picture and get it out of my system. You won't hear another word out of my mouth after this - until he's a year old, anyway! ) Brooks MacGregor Pearson - one week old

ALL FOUR + DOG - some squirming going on

During the dinner party at the Valenod's house in chapter 22, Julien engages in some instrospective self-pity. The narrator then comments: "I admit that the weakness which Julien displays in this monologue gives me a poor opinion of him. He would be a worthy colleague for those CONSPIRATORS IN YELLOW GLOVES, who profess to reform all the conditions of life in a great country, and would be horrified at having to undergo the slightest inconvenience themselves.

Can anyone tell me who the "conspirators in yellow gloves" were? Does the Norton Critical Edition explain that reference, Joan?

And Joan - I love hearing about your new grandson!

Road King - now don't you go encouraging me! I've got a whole memory card of pictures...

I do remember a reference in the Norton Critical to those yellow gloves - will look it up now. Can't wait to see how you will connect the gloves to another reference...

In Chapter 22, "Ways of Acting in 1830" - following Julien's reaction to the hushing of the prisoner's singing, the narrator confesses that the weakness which Julien displays gives him a poor opinion of him. "He would be a worthy colleagueof those conspirators in yellow gloves who pretend to change the whole way of life of a great nation, but don't want to be responsible for inflicting the slightest scratch."
footnote - "Conspirators in yellow gloves are in effect parlor liberals, a familiar breed." (aka Hollywood celebs)

I came across another note - "Displaced aristocrats who had been supporters of Charles X - they were nicknamed the 'gants jaunes' or 'yellow gloves' - built large estates from which they enriched themselves while remaining in the safety of the city. (Algiers, 1830)" Source

JOAN, Brooks is the most handsome baby I've ever seen, I truly believe ! Yes indeed. So perfect, already displaying a distinct presence. Bless him and the entire family.

ROAD KING raises another good question. I need to go back to Chapter 22. There is a great deal of interesting material in it, especially about Valenod who, in my translation at least, is described as a "bounder". The evening dinner had a purpose and all those invited were there because they could be of use to Valenod. One paragraph about Valenod is heavily ironic.

The fact that V. is a ruthless social climber and a nouveu rich at the expense of the poor fellows in the workhouse is evident. To mention what things cost is still baad form in Europe.

Julien's (and Stendhal's) distaste for the raucous sons of the peasants is obvious. Their opinion of him changes in successive chapters just like the circumstances do.

There are many facets to Julien's personality, we see his obvious shortcomings : his choleric temper, his immaturity, his eagerness to emulate those who are successful by becoming a hypocrite himself, if that's what it takes.

Yet before we prejudge him, we ought to know what the society was like in which he lived, of the role and power of the Church. Only then can we grasp what Julien faced, how very different from the 'norm' he was, and how extraordinary his path to progress.

Road King. As Joan said: "Les gants jaunes = aristocrates fuyant la révolution de 1830."

Traude, so true, what was Julien to do with his life after he left the De Renal's, he certainly couldn't go back to his father, didn't have money, could hardly work with his hands, but he had talent he could use to raise above his station. His stay at the De Renals' proved that he could if didn't make too many mistakes. The seminary was a 'catch all' where a young fellow had hopes of rising above his station. You say that "what things cost is still bad form in Europe" is so true perhaps because one's financial situation is self evident, and people with money never need to think about the cost of things, but people who don't have much money do.

I am trying to keep up here, but I will be more free next week when the Curious Minds discussion is over. I am anxious to read along with you all.

That's my interest too, the role and power of the church. JoanP, thank you for all the helpful information. Brook is already a heartbreaker. He is very handsome, very healthy looking too. Congratulations to the whole family.

Did we already talk about Stendahl's views about the church? I can't remember. I might have, due to excitement, missed some posts. There is so much about the church, I think, in chapter 27. I get the impression that the power belonged to the pope. I see the state as secondary to the church. Was this true?

"Julien saw the idea of a second God appearing, but this was a far more fearsome and more powerful God than the other: this second God was the pope."

I think it is to Julien's advantage to be nicknamed after Martin Luther. Although hated by many, Martin Luther's name would become known around the world. By Stendahl mentioning Martin Luther as a nickname for Julien, I see Julien as becoming a man to watch.

He is given the name Martin Luther because of the "infernal logic of his which makes him so proud." It is ironic. Julien is given the name of a man out of "horror." Ultimately, this same man would become a heroic zealot to many people. I am going off on a limb because of my lack of knowledge about Martin Luther.

I would love to know about the life of Martin Luther. I would also like to know about Voltaire.

LauraD, I don't find myself weary yet either. It's all very interesting. I want to see Julien's life unfold. Will he ever marry? Will he become a part of the church and remain? I have so many questions.

This is just another guess.

The red = glorious days of France before the fall of Napoleon The black = the dark days of France, a nation striving to find a new identity, the desire for power whether from the church or through commerce.

Joan asked, “LauraD - do you think the seminaries in England at the time are similar, or is France experiencing the aftermath of the Revolution and then Restoration?”

I must plead complete ignorance on this! Please feel free to answer in my place everyone!

By the way, beautiful grandbaby, Joan!

Goodness me! By not checking in for a few days I missed not only much lively discussion but pictures of lovely grandchildren! The new one is adorable, as are the others and the dog!

Have been buried under other deadlines this week but will now get back to our novel and try to contribute to the discussion. And Joan, I think your response to my last post was right on! I do think what I described as a frequent occurrance after revolutions applies to Napoleon (in spades!) and thus to Julien, as his highest ambition seems to be to emulate Napoleon. I found myself feeling a bit sorry for Julien though, in spite of his oh-so-obvious faults, in the bar scene when he first arrives in the new town. One reason that he went so overboard in his declaration of love for the barmaid he just met may have been his discomfort in being in new surrounding and a new situation. He had, in his eyes, at least proven himself in the de Renal's household, but how ca he know how things will be in the seminary? He wants to remind himself of his success with Madame and also to feel that he has at least one friend in the new twon.

Come back with me to Chapt. 25 and the FYC question #2. "What is it that astonishes the seminary director, Abbé Pirard during his first interrogation of Julien?"

The seminary director, Abbé Pirard, was astonished at the extent of Julien’s knowledge of theology, the Holy Scriptures and the authority of the Pope. However, the director was dismayed to learn that Julien knew nothing of the doctrine of the church Fathers. He faulted Julien’s teacher, the curé Chélan, for that omission. The director thought Julien was too knowledgable of the Holy Scriptures which leads, “to private judgement, that is to say to the most fearful Protestantism”.

The Protestants' insistence that the authority of Scripture trumps the authority of the Pope and church "tradition" is a centuries old battle that got a lot of people killed. I fear for Julien when he is nicknamed after Martin Luther, one of the most notorious catalysts of the Protestant Reformation. This association with Protestantism is potentially very dangerous for Julien!

Bon soir, mes amis! I'm finding so much to smile about in Stendhal's story - but keep reminding myself that these are serious, dangerous times. Julien is not like adolescents we know today, trying to "find himself" - he has to keep his wits about him if he is to survive in these dangerous times. As Eloise tells it - People who didn't have money had to do whatever they could to get ahead - and as Traudee writes, our Julien has obvious shortcomings in his personality. I think it is the shortcomings that make me smile - and like him. Diana - I guess I feel sorry for him too, but honestly, he has so much hutzpah at this point - I'm still smiling - even if he almost got into it with the boyfriend in the billiard parlor!

- hats, you might remember from the pre-discussion, that Stendhal hated the Jesuit education provided by his pious aunt. He seems to gravitate towards his Jansenist teachers. Abbé Chélan and Abbé Pirard were Jansenists. A footnote in the Norton Critical edition -

"The mid 17th century church was divided - Jansenists (after Cornelis Jansen) and the anti-Jensenists, mainly led by the Jesuits.

Jansensists tended to be austere, inflexible types who emphasized the soul's intimate relationship with God, often accused of sympathy with Protestantism.

Jesuits tended to go in the direction of worldliness."

But even though he prefers the Jansenist teachers, Julien seems to emulate the worldliness of the Jesuits, don't you think?

ps - Thank you, all of you, for the nice comments about mygrandbabies. I miss them terribly. This is the first one who wasn't born here in Virginia. I hate it that they are so far away!

- hats, you said it - "the power belonged to the Church..and the Pope had the power to appoint and dismiss the heads of government.

Castanède, (a Jesuit, I believe?) Julien's teacher of Sacred History, teaches his seminarians - that the government had no real legitimate power, except wha the Pope gave it. He tells them "their obedience to the Pope will get them a marvelous position in the world."

<Hats, you are quite right, Julien is given the name Martin Luther because of the "infernal logic of his which makes him so proud."
Abbé Chélan had taught Julien good logic and to avoid empty verbiage. Stendhal writes - "All good reasoning irk some...that's why they called him "Martin Luther." It's supposed to be an insult. (Stendhal doesn't think so.)

Road King - enormously helpful post!
"I fear for Julien when he is nicknamed after Martin Luther, one of the most notorious catalysts of the Protestant Reformation. This association with Protestantism is potentially very dangerous for Julien!"

Oh, I agree with hats - Julien will stand out and be noticed!

LauraD, I'm thinking of the British novels of the same period, and not coming up with any Catholic seminaries. I must remember something you said earlier that prompted the question. If I have some time tomorrow, I'll try to find some information. I think that in France, the back and forth between Napoleon and the Pope and then the Monarchy had a lot to do with what was going on in the seminary at Besançon.

hats - Will also try to find something on Voltaire and his influence on Stendhal tomorrow. Right now, I'll type in my favorite (my only) quote by Voltaire -

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Love your take on RED and BLACK, hats. Will enter that into our list of Interpretations right now!

JOAN, French seminaries probably reflected the turbulent political conditions that France, a Catholic country, had undergone following the Revolution of 1789 and its aftermath.

We can ssume that the clerical heads of these seminaries heavily depended for their support and general upkeep on the goodwill of the respective reigning government. That support came from the Ultra-royalists in R&B (where the priests kept a list of regular donors, Valenod being a more generous contributor than the mayor, whose name was near the bottom.)

In England, on the other hand, Henry VIII (1491-1547)broke with the Catholic Church because the Pope refused to grant him an annulment from his first wife, Catherine of Aragon.
Henry defied him, established the independent Anglican Church (ecclesia anglicana) and became its Supreme Head. The spiritual head of the Church of England, as it is also called, is the Archbishop of Canterbury.

There must have been seminaries for future Anglican priests in the time of Henry VIII and thereafter, even though we don't know how they compared with the seminaries in France.

The American Branch of the Anglican Church is the Episcopal Church. It is part of the worldwide Anglical Communion and recognizes the authority of the Bishop of Canterbury. There are several Episcopal Seminaries in this country, one is on Telegraph Road in Alexandria, Virginia on lovely grounds, with which I am quite familiar.

Voltaire was the pen name of François-Marie Arouet (1694-1778), the most illustrious representative of the 17th-century philosophical movement known as the Enlightenment. An eminent scientist, satirist, he was exiled a few times when the reigning powers were unhappy with his candidly expressed critical opinions, especially against the clergy.
He wrote Candide on which Leonard Bernstein based his operatic work of the same title.

Joan, you asked: "Is there truth in Abbé Castanède's teaching that government has no legal power except what the Pope gives it?"

Julien, having memorized the entire New Testament, knows that the Apostle Paul admonished the Christians living in Rome: “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.”

By claiming that it is the Pope who establishes legitimate government, the Abbé Castanède might be understood to be positioning the Pope and God as equals. Julien suspects the seminarians are taking this concept a bit further, apprehending the Pope to be a “second God” more fearful and powerful than the first.

JoanP, thank you for repeating Stendahl's feelings about the Jansenists. Also, thank you for writing again the difference between the Jesuits and the Jansenists. As a answer to your question and after your definitions, I definitely see Julien as worldly, a Jesuit.

Road King, like JoanP wrote, your earlier post is very helpful. It gave me a better insight in to Martin Luther. I will one day, I hope, have time to read a full biography about Martin Luther. Who caused the bigger uproar he or Joan of Arc? These two were not contemporaries, were they? Joan of Arc died a martyr's death. How did Martin Luther die? Now, I am off topic.

Traude, thank you for the information about Voltaire. JoanP is going to gather even more information.

I am hoping Eloise will return soon.

Thoughts on Chapter 28. Julien’s ecclesiastical career isn’t advancing in quite the way he might have hoped.

He’s managed to alienate his fellow seminarians.

He’s been assigned to the cathedral to serve in the mundane capacities of interior decorator and security guard.

His mentor wished to introduce Julien to the Bishop, but that opportunity to advance his career was postponed because he was immobilized by his former mistress showing up.

I thought it was a nice touch (if a bit contrived) to put Madam de Rênal in the confessional. Julien had been warned that thieve's lookouts stationed themselves there. Madam de Rênal was, in fact, a thief. The consequences of her adulterous behavior with Julien may have stolen from him any possibility of achieving a long and happy life.

Bonjour mes amis!

As we move along through Julien's days at the seminary, it is becoming clear that he cannot keep up his plan of hypocrisy much longer, doesn't it? He clearly does not believe in the doctrine he is learning that promises to lead him to a good living - and yet he is so disdainful of those who have done so! He seems to be a misfit. I don't see happiness for him anywhere on the horizon.

"He succeeded in learning a number of things useful to a priest, very false in his eyes, and which interested him not at all."

Poor Julien, try as he may to fit in, he cannot feign delight in the meals as the other "peasants"- nor can he mask "the look of a thinker."

hats, the seminarian who burst and called him an "unbeliever, a Voltaire" got it right. Julien can't hide the fact, no matter how hard he tries. Traudee tells us that "Voltaire was exiled a few times when the reigning powers were unhappy with his candidly expressed critical opinions, especially against the clergy." Here's a bit more - he sounds a lot like an 18th century Stendhal, I think.

"He (Voltaire) received his education at "Louis-le-Grand," a Jesuit college in Paris where he said he learned nothing but "Latin and the Stupidities He left school at 17 and soon made friends among the Parisian aristocrats.

He wrote hundreds of letters to his circle of friends. He was always a voice of reason. Voltaire was often an outspoken critic of religious intolerance and persecution. Voltaire **********************************
From the beginning, Voltaire had troubles with the authorities, but he energetically attacked the government and the Catholic church. Voltaire did not support the dogmatic theology of institutional religions, his religiosity was anticlerical.

The doctrines about the Trinity or the Incarnation he dismissed as nonsense. As a humanist, Voltaire advocated religious and social tolerance, but not necessarily in a direct way. Voltaire and the Church

Someday, we might consider reading/discussing Voltaire's Candide.

- Road King - " a nice touch (if a bit contrived) to put Madam de Rênal in the confessional." I'd wondered about that. One never enters a confessional unless there is a confessor waiting there to hear one's confession. What was she doing there? Was she hiding? Do you think she expected Julien to turn up there?
Maybe she was in the church, saw Julien and then hid in the confessional?

Fouqué has already informed Julien that Madame has turned religious - makes pilgrimages. I took that to mean that she makes pilgrimages to churches in Dijon and Besançon to confess her sins because she no longer trusts confidentiality from the priests in Verrières. She knows Julien is in Besançon - has written to him all those tear-stained letters Abbé Pirard has intercepted - and read. Is it reasonable to suspect that she has connections in the town who might have informed her that he was to assist in decorating the church for the procession?

Why did Abbé Chas choose Julien to assist him with the decorating? Maybe just because Julien was willing to listen to his descriptions of of the riches that would be coming to the seminary. Did you notice the description of those silver candlesticks bought in Italy by Charles the Bold? That reminds me of an earlier footnote in the Norton Critical - I don't think I ever mentioned it before -

"Charles, the Bold, a fifteenth century duke of Burgundy, is several times mentioned opportunely when Julien is called upon to be audacious."

I think we should regard the invocation of his name as a red flag whenever we see it. This is Julien's first time in Besançon since he has arrived - maybe to meet the bishop - maybe he'll see Amanda Binet. Who knows what will happen! Whatever, he's ready for anything...

Traudee, from your post on the Church in England at this time, do you think it's safe to conclude that the Catholic Church is now the Anglican Church with no more ties to the Papacy - and that there are no longer Roman Catholic seminaries in England? If that's the case, I think it's safe to say that there is no more toadying to the Pope in English seminaries - Where have all the Jesuits gone?

Traude, thanks for the information on England’s church in your post #338. I slapped myself on the forehead (not literally), thinking to myself, “Oh, I knew that.” It just didn’t click for me yesterday.

Very clever idea about Madame Renal being a thief, Road King!

Joan- You asked: "Where have all the Jesuits gone?."

Jesuits in the U.S. support 28 of our best Universities such as Loyola, Santa Clara, Fordham, Georgetown etc. All are known for their intellectual and open atmosphere.

The Society of Jesus was formed by St. Ignatius of Loyola who was a Knight before he was a Priest. Jesuit Priests and brothers are engaged in ministries in 112 countries on six continents. They are best known in the fields of education, intellectual research and cultural pursuits. They are also known for social justice and human rights activities and intereligous dialogue.

Today the Jesuits form the largest religous order in the Catholic Church.In England the Catholic Church was officially banned during the years we are reading about. However Jesuits abounded there in secret. Finally in 1842 they opened a college in Liverpool (1842), Spinkhill (1842)and Glasgow (1857) and on and on...

I read a number of articles on Wikipedia and put this info together.

Judy

In chap. 28 Julien was in the Besançon cathedral, helping "to drape each of of the gothic pillars ... in a sort of jacket of red damask ...". Then, in chap. 29, Julien is appointed to be a tutor in the seminary. The chapter title is "The First Step".

A church decorated in red and a new job as tutor.

We are reminded of chap. 5, when Julien had just been hired as a tutor. On his way to the Rênal's he stopped at the church. The windows had been covered with crimson cloth. He found a note, on which was written, “Details of the execution and of the last moments of Louis Jenrel, executed at Besançon, on the . . .”

The paper was torn. On the other side he read the opening words of a line, which were: “The first step.”

Hi - just lurking about. Your posts are great - hope to be with you for the remainder of the discussion though my time is very limited and no matter how hard I try something gets in the way.

I read the posts as often as possible and like most of you enjoy the close reading we have here. The novel becomes so much more than just a story when looked at in depth.

Joan : on the question of the Church of England. Anglicans have no ties to the papacy. These were cut by Henry VIII and were never resumed despite strenuous efforts by many, notably Mary, half sister to Elizabeth I.

Today the Roman Catholic Church in England operates separately from the C of E. I am sure there are Catholic seminaries in England. We have them here. In the literary world, both Morris West and Tom Keneally both studied for the priesthood here in Aust.(being Aussies they would, wouldn't they).

What 'red & black'signifies puzzles me as well. When young I didn't give it much thought and settled for the clergy and the military. On later reading was not so sure and dallied with love (or passion) and despair. Now I lean towards Life and death. I guess Stendhal's actual intent will never be known and I daresay he was genius enough to imbue the colours with many meanings just to keep us on our toes. I'll be interested to see what the consensus here will be when we finish the reading.

Till next time....

Was it too much of a coincidence that Mesdames de Rênal and Derville were in the church at the time Julien was there to hang the red damask drapes?

Although the author provided reason for the Mesdames to be there, I still found it weird. And what was Madame de Renal doing in the confessional?! It was not a time for priests to be hearing confessions. Is she a thief? I can’t imagine that she is, but this scene is foreshadowing something, I think.

Hi! Hats and everyone, I still have the painter today and Curious Minds will end officially tomorrow. I will be back in full swing next week.

Oh! yes, Julien made his mark on several fronts at the Cathedral while he climbed up not only one ladder to hang banners. That scene gave us so many tid bits to chew on it's hard to dissect every word to know what S had in mind while he was writing. Thank you all for reading between the lines. I am trying to keep up with you, but it gets me out of breath.

The complicated intrigues and maneuvers in Chapter 29 made me realize how terribly outmatched Julien is, in playing this game of life in early 19th century France. He imagines himself to be a player but, in fact, he's an expendable pawn, being played by almost everyone to advance their own interest.

Julien's only true friends, as far as I can see, are the timber merchant, Fouqué and the old priest, Chélan. To their credit, they have both tried to steer Julien away from a career in the church, which Stendhal is portraying in the most unflattering way.

Bonjour mes amis!

Oh, Gum, I do agree with you - "The novel becomes so much more than just a story when looked at in depth." Just look at today's posts! Éloïse, yes, each discovery leaves you breathless. We look forward to your return. I'll admit it's difficult because we have to first familiarize ourselves with mid 19th century French history and how the different classes were impacted by it. Our frame of reference is mostly English.

Thank you so much, Judy, for taking the time to piece together the history of the Church in England. Is it safe to conclude that when the Anglican Church was established, the parish priests continued as Anglican, but the religious orders (such as the Jesuits) either went underground or fled the country? Maybe to France?

Now it seems the French clergy and religious orders continue at the whim of the governing body - the Monarchy and the aristocracy, which in turn relies on Papal support, and therefore tolerates the clergy. It seems that both the Church and high society are in danger in case of another revolution - which is in the air at this time. And Julien is trying to decide where to cast his lot!

Did you read the passage on the conscription - the conversation between the two seminarians? "Nobody goes but the beggars. "Anybody who's anybody stays home."

It sounds like Julien's best bet would be to go into business with his friend, Fouqué - as you say, Road King, one of the few Julien can trust. Even if it were a game of chess, I don't see too many moves open to him. But Julien doesn't know that yet, does he...

Just look at what close reading has unearthed! I'm wondering how many of us spotted the "first steps" that Road King discovered? I am just amazed. Surely this is how Stendhal constructed these two chapters - but how many have noticed or appreciated his work! Thank you again, RK

One thing I did notice - the red drapes in the church hung for the celebration of the feast of Corpus Christi - the body of Christ. Gum, I too am seeing the red as blood the blood of life and black as death the more we read!

LauraD, I'm afraid I don't see Madame de Rênal and her pal, Madame Derville in the Church as thieves. I'm still seeing Madame de Rênal hiding in the confessional because she has seen Julien and doesn't want him to see her. Had he not recognized Madame Derville, he might have missed her altogether.
Didn't Fouqué set us up for the scene when he told of Madame's "pilgrimages" to the confessionals in both Dijon and Besançon?

Poor Julien - seeing Madame left him so shakey, he missed meeting the Bishop. But Abbé Pirard is happy to hear from Abbé Chas of Julien's exemplary conduct at the procession. He probably knew too that Julien did not stop in at the café to see the buxom barmaid. Do you think Abbé Pirard wants the Bishop to meet with Julien - to show off his best student in order to contradict the Abbé de Frilair's poor assessment of his talents? Is that why he selected him to deliver his letter of resignation?

Chap 29 FYC #2: What are the two paths Abbé Pirard describes at his farewell sermon to the young seminarians?

Path 1: Seek honours, social advantages, the pleasure of commanding men, defying laws and of being insolent to all men with impunity?

Path 2: Seek your eternal salvation.

I predict Julien will follow a variation of the first path. Julien's lode-star is Napolean. Recall his vision in chapter 10.

ALONE in the forest between Vergy and Verrieres, standing on top a huge rock, he was burning to attain a position ABOVE his fellow-men and COMPLETELY ISOLATED from them.

“It was the destiny of Napolean, was it one day to be his own?”

Wherever Julien goes there is intrigue. Whether it be in a private home as a tutor, in a bar with the bar maid or in the seminary with the head priest and the other students. What some saw as hypocrisy in Julien I see as "Survival Mode" or even "Climbing the Success Ladder".

Thus Stendhal uses this technique as a way of showing the inner workings of each setting. He is using it to go into depth of feelings, politics, religion, and social mores. I find this technique wonderful because it steers as far away as possible from the obvious and the superficial. The critic who wrote that this is the first really psychological novel was correct.

The truth is never pretty. It is messy, confusing and very seldom clear cut. I am looking forward to the next chapters in Paris. What more will be revealed about the society of the time.?

Judy

Sorry I am only able to participate in this discussion sporadically - but I read all the great posts. Thanks everyone.

Chapter 30 in my translation (Gard) is entitled "An Ambitious Man." At first I thought it was a reference to our friend, Julien, who certainly has great ambition. But after closer reading, I see that it is also (if not mainly in this chapter) a reference to Marquis de La Mole - a character who keeps cropping up, and I suspect is becoming a more important character. So I thought I would review what we know about him.

We first met de La Mole in Chapter 18 when the King was visiting Verrieres - he was one of the king's entourage. His "ancestors had so long been governors of the province, he had been chosen to accompany the King." He was the person Maslon was afraid would inquire about the absence of Abbe Chelon. M. de Renal says to the Maslon re de La Mole ". . . he is right-thinking enough at court; but here in the provinces . . . he's capable of covering us with ridicule in the eyes of the liberals, just to amuse himself." In that chapter we also find out that the Bishop of Adge is a nephew of de La Mole. At the ceremony, Julien notices de La Mole standing closer to the king than the many other lords and thinks "his air haughty, even insolent." At the end of that day, de La Mole is the one who distributes 10,000 bottles of wine among the peasantry.

In Chapter 19 de La Mole is the one to whom de Cholin writes a note asking for appointment to a vacant office - Julien finds the note and realizes this is one way to get ahead, he says "even that imbecile de Cholin shows me the path to follow".

De La Mole is also the person who sends Julien the 500 francs and who offers Abbe Pirard the position in Paris and in Chapter 30 decides to offer Julien the position as his secretary and companion to his son.

At the beginning of Chapter 30, we learn that he has been intriguing to persuade the "nation and King to accept a certain ministry" (according to the notes - this refers to an administration of Ultras) - and thinks that by these efforts he will be made a Duke.

According to the epigraph at the beginning of Chapter 30, being a Duke is much preferable to being a Marquis: "There's only one style of nobility left, and that's the title of duke; marquis is ridiculous - at the word duke people turn their heads."

And so "an ambitious man".

GLENCORA, the chapter title could indeed describe Julien too, and for good reason.

JUDY, I quite agree. Julien is definitely not a hypocrite by nature, in fact he is appalled by what he observes. But since the hypocritical people are all successful, he decides to "go with the flow" in an effort to get ahead. As I have said early on, what is so wrong with that ? Don't we all admire and give credit to a self-made man in this country ?

In seminary Julien stands out. First for the wrong reason, a slightyly different 'credo' and focus c/o by Father Chélan's teaching. After that he changes the manner of his presentation.

Father Pirard, who has deliberately refrained from being partial to any seminarian, is genuinely fond of Julien and reproaches himself for not showing it earlier.

Julien is a different kind of seminarian, not only because of his neat appearance but his intellect. Father Chaz too feels he can trust him with decorating the Cathedral, and with filling the young man in on the riches the church holds. Would any of the other seminarians have appreciated that, other than for material reasons ? I don't think there is any ulterior motive on the part of the priest or Julien. Of course he can breathe air freely at last !

Another word on England under Henry VIII. The break with the Roman Catholic Church took years to complete. By 1538 all the monasteries and friaries were closed. The monks and nuns became pensioners of the state.

It is logical to assume that any Catholic seminaries that may have existed were closed as well. That was my answer to JOAN's question about a comparison between French and English seminaries in Stendhal's time.

It was not the end, however.
A revival came with the Society of Jesus = their original name, (they were called ';Jesuits' mockingly at first), who were the true salvation of a corrupt church, weakened by the Babylonian Captivity and Antipopes in Avignon, by the Reformation of Martin Luther, and the misdeeds of the Borgias and Colonnas in Rome.

Circa 1830 Anglican religious orders reappeared; women were the pioneers, horrified by the societal conditions in Victorian England and the misery in the hovels and slums of the industral cities.

As for France, the Jesuits were banned from the country as a result of the revolution, but readmitted in 1814.
And yes, the new revolution talked about in R&B is the one of 1830. That wasn't the last one either, another came in 1848.

In chap. 29, "The First Step", Julien visited the Bishop of Besançon to deliver the seminary director's letter of resignation. The Bishop was impressed by Julien and gave him an 8 volume set of Tacitus.

I suspected that this reference to Tacitus might be more than just a "page filler". It was. Here's what I learned about Tacitus in Wikipedia.

Tacitus was Rome's greatest historian. His work has been read for its moral instruction, its gripping and dramatic narrative, and its inimitable prose style; he has been most influential as a political theorist, outside the field of history.

The political lessons taken from his work fall roughly into two camps (as identified by Giuseppe Toffanin): the "RED Tacitists", who used him to support republican ideals, and the "BLACK Tacitists", those who read his accounts as a lesson in Machiavellian realpolitik.

Whaddaya think? Should we add this to our list of Red & Black clues?

Road King: Red & Black - it's everywhere, as you point out, even in Tacitus. I guess it comes down to 'seek and ye shall find'

JoanP, thank you for the extra information about Voltaire.

Road King, thank you for giving an explanation about Tacitus. I thought the set of books were religious ones. These books were also edged in "gold leaf." Could only rich people afford gold leaf edged books? I always thought all books, during this time, were richly gilded.

I have been thinking about Mme. Renal in the confessional too. She wore large white pearls. Julien recognized these pearls. I wonder. Did she wear these pearls on purpose knowing Julien would recognize the jewelry??? Would the pearls make him stop and take another look?

Why did Father Pirard resign? Some people think he was forced out and that he did not voluntarily resign.

Ah, I finally caught up on reading and posts. Great posts!

I totally agree that Mme de Renal selected Belancon for a church because it was exactly the spot where Julien went to school. It was really quite pathetic and sad. She must have known he might be at the church the day of the big ceremony. She hid, but exposed herself. (At first, I thought she was a thief.) She was completely guilty and unnerved about her affair with Julien to the point of illness, was pulled violently in two different directions over him, but she could not keep herself away from him. Look at what happened when he climbed the ladder to her room in Verrieres! Ooh, la, la!

I wondered how many times Amanda had watched out of her window with a bunch of violets for a procession of seminarians which included Julien to go by.

Judy & Traude: Thanks for the info about the Catholic Church in England at the time. When Henry VIII abolished the Catholic Church, he took over the monasteries. Henry wanted the wealth of the property including the land, buildings, and contents. A number of monasteries were turned into private homes for the nobility. The Catholic religion itself was legally abolished. The practice of Catholicism went underground. During the reign of "Bloody Mary" things were reversed. Then back again with Elizabeth. During the Napoleonic wars, the British Navy was not allowed to hire Catholic sailors (although it occurred unofficially because the navy was so short of help.)

Traude, along with Marni, I would like to say thank you too.

I thought one of the most interesting characters in this week's reading was Pirard. Although he frightened Julien terribly at first with his stern visage and manner, Julien came to love him. They seemed to develop a relationship like that of the Abbe Chelan and Julien. Pirard and Chelan were friends, and no wonder. They were kind, pious, and honest, I think. Neither were naive; they both understood the vicious politics of the world of the church, and the careers of both were affected greatly by them. Both took Julien under their wings, seemed to understand him somewhat, appreciated Julien's talents, tried to keep him from harm, and helped him to advance as well as escape.

I enjoyed the irony when I found it was de la Mole who offered Pirard the wealthy position which Pirard accepted, realizing he could not keep his place in the seminary. If I understood this correctly, de la Mole's offer to Pirard was unbeknownst to the bishop who wanted Pirard out of the way.

Yes, I do believe Julien is remarkable. We are seeing now that he does not simply have a photographic memory. He is extremely bright. He understands what he reads and can argue with logic. He is brilliant, I think. But he is naive and undereducated in many aspects. I'm looking forward to seeing him mature and gain sophistication. He is painted to be in quite a vicious world. I hope he is able to compete.

Bonjour mes amis, rouge et noir!

Oh what a web he weaves. Maybe we should note here that Stendhal was not the only writer railing against the Church and high society at this time. One of the greatest French writers of all - Victor Hugo, was born in Besançon. .. getting started as writer the same time as Stendhal was writing Red and Black. Hugo would write Les Miserables about 40 years after this.

Although Napoleon III granted in 1859 an amnesty to all political exiles, Hugo did not take the bite. Les Misérables appeared with an international advertising campaign. The book divided critics but masses were enthusiastic. Pope Pius IX added it with Madame Bovary and all the novels of Stendhal and Balzac to the Index of Proscribed Books. Hugo

So, the Church reacted by banning anticlerical works. I wonder how severely the government reacted to anti-political characterizations?

- hats - You seem to sympathize with Abbé Pirard. I guess we all do, though the young seminarians ignore his farewell sermon.

Abbé Pirard is a Jansenist in a seminary full of enemies. Marquis de la Mole's generous offer came at just the right time. Wasn't it interesting he would take no recompense from de la Mole for his help on the lawsuit over the property - (which was decided against Frilair). But he did arrange for 500 francs to be sent to Julien anonymously. (Poor Julien thinks that Madame sent it and has not forgotten her.)

Pirard's relationship with the powerful Abbé Frilair had reached the breaking point - and Frilair had the Bishop's ear. Pirard knew it was only a matter of time he would lose his position. But did you notice the bishop tell Frilair he'd have a difficult time replacing Abbé Pirard - because he was a "good man."

Marni, isn't it ironic that the Bishop is attracted to Julien for the same reasons that Frilair failed him? Had Julien not accepted the position with the Marquis, I think he would have survived. He attracts both sides. Pirard thinks he has a good heart and a fine mind. I haven't seen signs of the "good heart" yet - well he did weep for the silenced prisoner, didn't he...

Road King - I've never yet seen Julien concerned about his eternal salvation - have you? Does he even believe in God? I agree - his lodestar, his "god" is Napoleon.

Nor do I see him craving social honors and pleasures. But yes, I can see him on Path II, "defying laws, commanding men." Isn't it odd that he chooses to follow the Jansenist, Abbé Pirard, who preaches the very opposite path?

Traudee, Judy, no, I'm not seeing hypocrisy either - (not exactly). As you say, Judy, he's in "survival mode"...and Traudee, no, I can't blame him. I worry about him though - along with Abbé Pirard.

JoanP: Julien certainly has been weeping a lot, hasn't he. Is all of this weeping supposed to show his sensitivity? I don't believe I've ever seen a male character weep so much. He weeps when he is deeply moved.

I think that Nature is more of a god to Julien than anything else I have seen. Nature's beauties seem to revitalize Julien. Nature seems to be his salvation in times of stress and anxiety.

- Marni - maybe the weeping is to indicate that he does have a heart - that he is sensitive. Were those real tears he shed when Abbé Pirard made him a tutor? Yes, he does respond to Nature - I guess all the pretending gets to him after a while - he is able to exhale when alone in the mountains...

- Gum, as you say, we'll probably find "rouge" et "noir" wherever we look! Road King, what sleuthing! Yes, yes of course let's put the "Red Tacitists who support the Republic and the Black Tacitists who support the Machiavellian realpolitik" into the list!

The Bishop made the gift to the seminary, knowing that it would irk Pirard. As shocked as the Bishop was that there was no Tacitus in the seminary library (Julien knew he would be), I was shocked at the lack of knowledge of the outside world inside the seminary. They didn't even know that Napoleon had died years before - did you see that? One was asking another if there was any truth to the story. They never mentioned him by name - they referred to him as "the other man."

JOAN, I worry about Julien too, not least because of his hot temper.

Through the centuries, the Church punished sinners/opponents/critics most severely by excommunication, which made them fair game. Some went into hiding (like Marthin Luther).
Another punishment was exile. But the Church was not alone in using this method of eliminating critics:

Napoleon too exiled those who opposed him, among them most prominently Madame de Staël née Germaine Necker, a politically influential Protestant, who maintained a salon in Paris. She was the daughter of Swiss-born parents. Her father, Jacques Necker, was appointed finance minister in 1977 by King Louis XVI.

- Traudee, do you know whether Charles X was punishing those leftist writers who were lobbying for free speech. I'm thinking he must have been paranoid with talk of revolution in the air. Were Stendhal and other writers in danger of political exile, imprisonment - or worse, for their criticism?

- Glencora brings us to the final chapter in Book I. "Ambition"
So, it is the ambition of the nobility that fuels the story - the Marquis needs time to work on his bid for dukedom. He wants Abbé Pirard to work on his other legal concerns as he was such help with the land suit against Abbé Frilair. And he is impressed with Julien - for reasons not yet revealed. Abbé Pirard still wonders how the Marquis knows Julien.

I see no ambition at all in Abbé Pirard's heart - he seems uncomfortable in the role - and yet he wants Julien to succeed. He fears Julien's return to the seminary if things don't work out with de la Mole perhaps.

Before heading to Paris, Julien simply must stop off at Verrières. As Marni says, "ooh la la." Abbé Chélan knows all - and has forbidden Julien from seeing her. Will he listen? What do you think? Did Madame know he'd come to her after exposing herself to him in Besançon? Is she truly sorry to see him?

hats - those pearls! I'd forgotten. If Madame had been truly repentant - "turned religious" as Fouqué tells Julien, I would think she'd have removed all the glitter, the bling - especially to go on a pilgrimage to confession. Does she know Julien will recognize them?

JOAN, no, Charles X did not punish critics.

A quick recap, he was born Charles Philippe, Count of Artois, in 1757, younger brother of Louis XVIII, King from 1814 to his death in 1824.

As a young man, Charles lived a life of "extravagance and dissipation" (a quote from web sources). During the reign of his brother, King Louis XVI, Charles was the leader of the reactionary clique at the court of Louis XVI. He left France in July of 1789 after the storming of the Bastille.

The Bastille is a notorious stronghold constructed after the French defeat at Poitiers in the 100-years war with England. It later became a prison.
The storming of this stronghold took place on July 14, which is a national holiday kown a Bastille Day and celebrated by French the world over.

Charles returned to France from exile (first in Germany, then in England) in 1814 after Napoleon's abdication. Acting as his brother's envoy, he put his signature to the Armistice paper of April 23, which restored the monarchy. Louis XVIII became king.

During his brother's reign, Charles was the leader of the Ultra royalists who cosidered the King too moderate. After the Ultras gained control of the Chamber of Deputies in 1820, Charles' influence steadily grew. Upon the death of his brother in 1824, he ascended the throne.

right back

Charles had many admirable qualities: a gracious personality, a strong sense of duty, generosity toward others. He began his reign by abolishing censorship and by granting amnesty to political prisoners. Many of the bills he proposed became law, e.g. the law granting an indemnity to émigrés whose property had been confiscated during the Revolution. The bill introduced to abolish primogeniture, (the right of the eldest son to inherit the estate), was defeated. At amy rate, it would have affected only some 80,000 famlies out of 6,000.000.

Charles was less prudent in his choice of advisers. A staunch defender of royal prerogative, he could not accept the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy. In addition, the blunders and divisions of the Ultra royalists themselves were another cause of the July revlution of 1830, which overthrew the Bourbon dynasty.

I am beginning to feel differently about Julien. I find him amazing. While having all this knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, he shows not a bit of guilt or sorrow for having or wanting to continue his affair with Mme. de Renal. The way he puts a ladder to the window, knocks and knocks determined to get inside to see her in the dark of night knowing he might put her life in jeopardy with her husband is just plain self centered and worldly.

I am beginning to feel more sympathy for Mme. de Renal. She is filled with guilt and sorrow, constantly thinking of her family. I feel she truly wanted to repent in the confessional. The large white pearls might have been a symbol of what she is seeking, purity in her life. It is not her fault that Julien recognizes the pearls.

Thinking back to the introduction of "The Red and the Black," the novel is called "shocking." For this reason and because of Julien's bold moves to make a married woman love him, I see red as bloodshed and Black as death.

Julien showed such love for Mme. de Renal's children. At the time, I thought his love was "real" especially for the little boy. Now, I doubt his love even for the children. By trying to make Mme. de Renal commit adultery, doesn't he care what will happen to her children? Julien is a very strong, determined young man. I hope Mme. de Renal is not left with a tattered reputation after he finishes playing his games.

"...he had the misfortune to become a cold schemer, almost as calculating and cold as when, in the recreation ground of the seminary, he found himself the victim of some nasty joke from a fellow seminarist who was tougher than he was."

The problem is that Julien always sees himself as a victim. Sadly, at this point, he can not see that it is Mme de Renal who is the victim of his dreadful behavior.

Hats: I'm starting to see another Julien, but different from yours. I'm seeing a swashbuckler! It's fun! He's got a dashing, daring, gallant, brave heroic side. He rides a horse beautifully, as in the parade. He has been taught to use the sword. (I'm waiting for him to fight in a duel; I'm convinced it will happen!) It was Julien who dashed up the ladder to decorate the church when no one else had the nerve - he earned quite a reputation for himself doing that - word spread even to the bishop! The ladies practically swoon over Julien after just one look.

And now he dares the unthinkable. He climbs the ladder to Mme de Renal's room and will not leave without seeing her. He is the seducer! And, of course, he overcomes her fears and wins her again.

The two of them together, once she has been overcome, are hysterical. She is as brazen as Julien! Hiding the ladder in the house; bringing food to him under the family's nose. Hiding Julien under the bed; throwing her clothes over his hat so her husband doesn't see it. What a riot! I laughed so hard. And then getting Julien out the window and throwing his clothes down to him, bullets raining around him as he escapes. What a wonderful scene! This is like a scene from the "The Three Musketeers."

I envision a small Tyrone Power (who cries passionately)! What will happen next? No wonder this book was considered shocking!

Ah, poor madame. She may be terribly guilt ridden and ill from adultry, but she's also having a blast.

Marni, I did think the throwing the clothes over the hat, the ladder being hidden, food being quietly taken upstairs. All of that is funny. Still, I felt frightened at every move because none of this would seem funny to M. de Renal and neither would it seem funny to the authorities in the seminary. Really, I felt surprised at Mme de Renal's actions. She admits herself,

"If he hears the slightest noise, that's the end of me, he'll turn me out of the house like the wretch I am."

Mme. de Renal must have missed a part of her youth. She is trying to regain it. It's too late. She has her family and her home in a society where I doubt it is easy for a woman to survive on her own especially if she is caught committing adultery or trying to commit adultery.

Who is going to be stuck holding the bag???? Mme. de Renal. Look at Julien's attitude after all the wild goings on.

"An hour later he was a league away from Verrieres on the road to Geneva; if they have any suspicions, thought Julien, the Paris road is where they'll look for me."

Julien is free and clear. He won his conquest, Mme. de Renal.

Hats, I largely agree with you on Julien. I have less sympathy for him now than I did at the beginning. In fact, I'm becoming a bit annoyed with the story as a whole. Everything seems so overwrought, with everyone taking themselves uch too seriously--moaning and groaning about how wretched their actions have made them and then proceeding to do more of the same! Yes, as Marni said, there is much swashbuckling on Julien's part and much of it is fun for us also. But on the whole, I'm becoming a little tired of the 2 lovers. I'm glad this part is coming to an end and we're moving to Julien's life in Paris. Somehow I doubt the he will learn very much very quickly, but at least he'll be in a different environment--one in which he's almost certain not to seem so exceptional in comparison to this colleagues.

Ok ladies, what did you think about the ladder scene?

The ladder was so heavy that Julien needed the peasant to carry it to the staging area of his assault on the chateau. After he got into Madame's bedroom he hauled the ladder in after him. Then they had to get the "enormous ladder" out of her room before her maid found it.

"Madame de Rênal, (without Julien's help), picked up the ladder as she might have picked up a chair. She carried it swiftly to the corridor on the third storey, where she laid it down by the wall."

Madame de Rênal has given virtuoso performances in many different roles: long-suffering wife, seductress, penitent, and now - wonder woman!

Julien is not worthy of this gal! In my opinion he's simply a savant and a poseur. His vaunted "intelligence" is largely due to his photographic memory. His self-centerdness has a whiff of sociopathy about it. His physical exploits, like horsemanship, ladder climbing and dodging bullets, are not extraordinary. That's just the natural flexibility, lightning-fast reflexes and daring of youth.

I'm gonna get heat for this, ain't I?

We're off to Pareee! Diana, I think we are all ready for a change of scenery after that scene in Verrières! As Road King says, "Julien is free and clear. He won his conquest, Mme. de Renal." That's what is was, wasn't it? A conquest? He can't possibly care about her well-being...leaving her "holding the bag." What do you see in her future after this life-shattering episode?

Marni, yes it's fun if you are young and carefree. You can always get away - and Madame had one day of pleasure - but what is to become of her now? hats, she really tried to put him off when he appeared in her bedroom..she knew she would never live down the disgrace if they were caught - and they were, weren't they? She really struggled with her own passion, I think. "She flung him away with a strength that was extraordinary." Again, the way Julien breaks down her resolve - with those crocodile tears! Hasn't he learned to use them whenever he wants to get his way! He also knew how she would respond when he told her he was leaving Besançon for Paris. That put her over the top. She seemed not to care what happened to her after that.

Julien does not acquit himself well in this scene - He outright deceives the good Abbé Chélan - promises that he will take the fresh horse right after their lunch together, not stopping to see anyone else before leaving town. He knew he was going to see her.

But what really got me was this -

"What a disgrace for me if I'm given the gate! It will be a humiliation to poison my whole life."

So off he goes, scot-free, exhilarated, pride intact! As Diana says, in a different environment he's almost certain not to seem so exceptional in comparison to this colleagues. We shall see.

Thank you, Traudee for all that good information on what we can expect in Paris. We'll need you with us in our compartment on the train. More questions on the way...Allons!

While clearing my desk in preparation for Book II, I see just a few notes from Chapter 30 - which may or may not have bearing on future chapters.

It was either Abbé Pirard or the Marquis who suggested that Julien may be the "natural son of a rich man." I'll go check that. Then we leave Abbé Pirard still wondering how the Marquis knows anything about Julien Sorel. Remember that he came out with his name before the abbé said it when describing the promising young man who might fill the role of secretary to the Marquis. What did you think of all that? I think we'll hear more as the story unfolds.

In this same passage, the abbé describes Julien as having a great talent, either for preaching or for curing souls...he as a "sacred fire." Do you see this, or do you think he's far off the mark?

JOAN, I'm eagerly reading but wanted to quickly try to answer your last question.

Julien perhaps never told Father Pirard of the King's visit to town to see the relics of Saint Clement near Verrières. That's where the Marquis de La Mole took note of Julien. Everybody had his eyes on him, resplendent in the uniform as honor guard. The marquis must have seen Julien again later after he had changed into his cassock and followed Father Chélan. It was Julien who produced the tardy Bishop, and he was also among the group who climbed the many steps to the chapelle ardente .

Ahhh, yes, of course. I do remember now, Traudee. I was looking for some explanation with more drama. I checked and see that it was Abbé Pirard who suggested that J. was the illegitimate son of a rich man - because he had received that anonymous letter containing a five hundred pound note...

Now I see something else underlined in my book - the passage in which the Marquis approaches the abbé to take care of his bisiness affairs - so that he is free to concern himself with his own pleasures. Did you note the Abbé's surprise at this?

Read on - we have a train to catch - we're going to Paris! Actually, you can read on the train!

I am not seeing Julien's tears as crocodile tears. I think they are tears from genuine emotion. His emotions change with the breezes, but they are real. Julien has bursts of passion - various types of passion - some displayed with tears. He has to work to keep his emotions in check and sometimes is not able to do this.

Julien is a young man of extremes of feeling - love, hate, courage, bravado, suspicion, curiosity..... - and sometimes he expresses his sudden outpouring of feeling with rash deeds.

What a wonderful portrait of Julien in his first days at the Hotel of the Marquis. Pirard has given Julien quite a build up to the Marquis, but the Marquis becomes a bit dubious when he discovers Julien, his new secretary, misspells words and trips over the Marquis' feet upon entering the dining room. Julien is looking like the country bumpkin. However, he quickly begins to show his the Marquis and his family his talents.

Julien takes Pirard's words of wisdom to heart - basically he is to listen and keep quiet and just do his job because he is surrounded by people who will try to catch him up. Julien does seem to be in a very cutthroat courtly atmosphere where people are tearing each other apart.

The below text is from “The Transformation of Paris” exhibition at the Map Library of the British Library in London, England

Paris in the early nineteenth century was a city of contrasts. Graceful monuments, historic buildings and slum dwellings were often side by side, the result of centuries of haphazard development. The city was very densely populated, the result of immigration from the provinces. Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote this about his first impressions of Paris:

"Entering through the faubourg Saint Marceau, I saw only small, dirty and stinking streets, ugly black houses, an air of filth, poverty, beggars, carters, sewing women, women hawking tisanes and old hats." [Jean-jacques Rousseau, ed. Michel Launay, Les Confessions (Paris: Gamier, 1968), pp. 146-7.]

Many quartiers contained decrepit tenements, which were sometimes five or six storeys high. Only one household in five had running water; chamber pots were emptied into the streets from the windows. Two-thirds of the streets contained open sewers which had been built over the centuries in a piecemeal fashion. They were woefully inadequate for the city in 1850, with a million inhabitants. Part of the city's water supply came from the Seine, often downstream from the mouths of sewers which emptied their contents into the river. The cramped, unhealthy conditions invariably bred disease. Cholera, moving westward from Asia, arrived in Europe in the early 19th century. In 1832, 39,000 Parisians contracted cholera. 18,400 people died, including the Prime Minister. A similar number died in 1848-49.

The old neighbourhoods of the east and the city centre, parts of which dated from the medieval period, had become less desirable. The crowded south-east had been the stronghold of resistance during the revolutions of 1830 and 1848. The rich were gradually moving to the west side. However, even the wealthy areas were interspersed with slums.

Travel across the city by carriage was hampered by a maze of medieval streets, which had evolved for the use of pedestrians, horsemen and sedan chairs. Carriages and other large vehicles were forced to take circuitous routes via the boulevards that encircled the city.

Wow, those figures of the numbers who died of cholera are astounding!

Thanks R.K. for that fascinating view of Paris of old.

I have read four chapters of the eight assigned and though much is happening , overall, I am watching a bright, passionate country bumpkin turn into a smoother and smoother Parisian. Certainly the inner man is the same but the outer man now has clothes, manners, dance lessons, and is begining to learn to converse in "Parisian". And not any "Parisian" but the language of the wealthy young people of the day.

Since I am not from that era (not quite that old) a lot of their conversation does not make sense to me. Perhaps Stendhal is doing that on purpose to show what Julien had to contend with in his new world.

We must pay attention to Stendhals words "the brilliant Mathilde" in Chapter four.He also alludes to the fact that a lot of boredom leads to the need for "Spiciness" in the novels she reads. (Chap. 3). Oh, oh, the good Stendhal is setting us up for the next romantic adventure. I can't wait !

Judy

I am so glad to be in Paris (at least I was until I read Road King’s post, ha ha)! I got so bogged down in Chapter 29 of Book One. I was delighted to move onto Madame de Renal and Julien and their old antics in Chapter 30, and even happier to have a change of scenery in Book Two.

However, the more things change, the more they stay the same. As I read Chapters Two and Three of Book Two, I was reminded of Julien settling into the Renal household. Once again, Julien is told he will not fit in. What I do find interesting, as mentioned in discussion question #2 of Chapter 2, is that Julien seems to fit in better when he acts like himself. In Chapter three, the narrator comments, “[Julien] had grace without knowing it,” when referring to Julien openly discussing his fall from the horse.

I may be premature, and, as many of you may know by now, I can never seem to predict anything in a book, but I can’t help but feel that this assignment will turn out better for Julien than his time at home, his time with the Renals, or his time in the seminary.

I need help with the meaning behind the incident about the spelling of cella.

In Chapter Two, we learn that “An hour afterwards the marquis came in and was surprised to notice that Julien spelt cela with two ll’s --- cella.” “’You spell cela with one ‘l,’’ the marquis said to him.”

OK, so cela must be the correct spelling, I thought.

Two pages later, the marquis said, “Norbert, I ask all your good offices for M. Julien Sorel, whom I have just taken into my staff and of whom I hope to make a man si cella se peut.” Here, cela or cella is spelled with two l’s.

What does this mean (the French and the meaning to the story) and which is correct?

Marni - you see real tears. I'm going to remember that. He seems to shed them at the most propitious moments - and they always seem to have the desired effect. Maybe they convince the onlooker of his passion and sincerity. As you say, he is capable of extremes - maybe this extreme is part of the package. Maybe they are a sign of his frustration. I see the tears whenever his pride is hurt - not as a sign of deep feeling for someone else. He does appear to be genuinely concerned about Madame's boys if the Rênals are driven out of office by Valenod as he overhears the conversation on the train.

It seems that Bonaparte is to blame for the political ferment in the provinces as well as in Paris - everyone scrambling to rise in power.

- Road King, I fear for Julien - can he keep his job, can he keep his mouth shut - especially if the Marquis' son, young Norbert wounds his pride?

From the picture of Paris you paint here, I'm looking for Julien's neighborhood, for L'Hôtel de la Mole. As you say, Paris at this time is a "city of contrasts. The rich were gradually moving to the west side." I read that l'Hôtel de la Mole was located in the Faubourg Saint-Germain and looked that up for an image of the architecture.

Can anyone here shed light on the meaning of "hôtel"? Surely, this is not a hotel as we know it. My French dictionary just gives the definition, "townhouse" - but I don't think this definition adequately describes the de la Moles' residence either. Ahhh, this is more like it -

Hôtel Bony & the Petit Hôtel Bourrienne Bony, 1826.

After the Revolution, this neighborhood became known as the New Athens (note the Classical Greek reference). The magnificent houses built by wealthy businessmen and government officers became famous for intellectual salons. Unfortunately, the few mansions that survive today are set back from the street and invisible to passers-by because the original gatehouses and gardens have been replaced by larger buildings.
The Hôtel Bony has the advantage of having a glass hallway in front of it, allowing us a glimpse of the mansion beyond. This Neo-classical beauty has a Restoration interior. Its exterior grand curved stairs and flouncey loggia is practically a Rococo revival, but its sober Classical proportions and Corinthian pillars keep the building from becoming a pastry." Paris Architecture Notes

Judy - the Marquis seems to be determined to turn Julien into a "fop" - just like his own son. What did you make of that? Did you read yet where he wants him to take dancing lessons? Why does a secretary need fancy clothes and dancing lessons?

LauraD, you were right when you assumed that "cela" is spelled with one "l" - the Marquis seems to be publicly mocking him when he points out his error at the dinner table. I guess he has a right to expect his secretary can spell...can't fault him for that - just for the way he embarrasses Julien at the dinner table. I've a footnote in the Norton Critical that explains where this comes from -

"The error of spelling cela with two "l's" was Henry-Beyle's (Stendhal's) when he came to the war office as a young man to clerk for Pierre Daru."

"Si cela se peut" - translates as the Marquis is trying to make a man of Julien - "if that (cela) is possible."
This seems to be some sort of experiment the Marquis is conducting - does anyone have a theory as to why? Do you agree with LauraD that Julien will find more success fitting in high society than in the Rênals' household or in the seminary? I feel as if he is going to explode at any moment>

I just want to say to you, Judy, that I too found a lot to puzzle over - and that I hope we don't get too bogged down in detail, chasing after every reference. I really don't think it's worth it. I'm referring particularly to the chapter 8 and then 9 ...in which we are quickly introduced to a roomful of characters, each with a whole history behind him.

Julien seems to be put off by Mlle. de la Mole, doesn't he? She's a beauty, witty and smart. Is he fighting an attraction to her, or does she genuinely offend him? I really can't tell at this point. He even says she's "mannish" at one point.

Just a few observations before I get in the swing of things here. I am not quite finished with my renovations and with Curious Minds. Road King mentions the decrepitude of Paris before Baron Haussman's complete restoration of the center of Paris which was Medieval to say the least. What I saw of the center of Paris was far from decrepitude as anybody who has been there can attest. It still has Baroque architecture, no buildings higher than 6 stories. Walking on the Champs Elisee feels like living a century before our time.

I understand that a hotel in this novel is a large luxurious house in the center of Paris, not as large as a chateau, but as richly decorated.

It's no wonder Julien is put off by Mlle de la Mole. She is so catty - she and the group of friends that convene during social gatherings and remark about the guests. Julien drifts from one person to another listening in.

My intuition tells me it will be the Mlle that Julien becomes romantically involved with. Wouldn't she be exactly the one who would be the most risk? Plus, she has overheard Julien say how bored he has become. He has now piqued her interest.

I have fallen behind in reading my chapters. I don't want to get lost in Gay Paree.

Bonjour, mes amis!
- We don't want anyone lost and on her own for the first time in Paree, hats! Especially after reading Road King's account of the unsafe and unsanitary conditions in the city at this time! Exactly where are you? Still on the train, or looking for a place to stay - a hôtel, perhaps?

Éloïse, have you ever seen one of the "large luxurious houses in the center of Paris?" Are there any still standing? Maybe there is a house tour available in Paris. I had not envisioned a detached dwelling as the Marquis seems to live in. If he ever gets promoted to Duke, I wonder if he will want to move to an even grander dwelling.

Judy, you've read the first four chapters of Book II and already see Julien turning into a Parisien. Have you a guess as to why the Marquis is grooming him to look like one of his own? After all, Julien is only doing secretarial work - writing letters for him. Why go through all this expense on appearances?

Does the Marquis consider that something might develop between his daughter and his secretary? By the way, do you think Norbert and Mathilde are twins? Do I remember correctly that they are the same age - 19? I'm not sure why, but Mathilde seems to be too critical of her own peers - she stands apart, but where is that?

Marni - do you think it is remarkable that the young people, (led by Mlle. de la Mole) - are so critical of their elders? I get the feeling that the others are following her lead. She seems quite aware of the absurdity of her class - does she think the same of her father? The Marquise has no use for Julien at all - is probably wondering as we are why her husband is making such a big deal of him.

Hats - if you are still on the train - can you find out more what's happening in Verrières? Julien overhears some fellow travelers commenting on the Valenods and Maslons taking over the Mayor's position...and Julien vows to look after Madame de Rênal's children if anything happens. (now he's talking about three Rênal boys again, did you notice that?) How can this be Napoleon's fault?

"He swore never to abandon the children of his beloved, and to leave everything in order to protect them, if ever priestly excesses lead us back to a republic and provoke persecution of the nobility."

I'm still puzzled at all the conversation regarding Napoleon - and how he is regarded now. Was he a man of the people who fought for the people...met with success, which went to his head? Or was he fighting for himself to rise above his poverty and find a place of power and distinction. Did he forget the people he fought for when he became Emperor?

I'd really like to take this opportunity to get to know Napoleon better.

Julien admires Napoleon, it seems to me, because of the glory he achieved. I sense this is what Julien is after too. I would really like to know what you all think.

Now that the Monarchy has been restored, it seems that no one is tending the store, looking out for the people in the city or in the provinces. Everyone is trying to advance in importance, like the Marquis who wants to become a duke, a meaningless title. It's all about appearances, isn't it?

Can we blame the sorry state of France on Napoleon - as the traveler on the train is doing? Were things better in France when he was Emperor? If revolution is in the air, who will lead it?

JoanP, I am on the train eavesdropping on the conversations going on around me. I am not ready to comment yet. I really enjoyed reading Road King's description of Paris during that time, so different from what I would have expected or would have wanted to hear. In Road King's post, there is mention of the "hawking of tisanes." What are tisanes? Thank you.

On the train I learn Saint Giraud is running away from the countryside and hurrying back to the city. The peace he sought in the countryside is not there. Politics, it seems, has followed Saint Giraud. "The peace of the countryside is hell to me...I'm leaving this hellhole of hypocrisy and hassle. I'm going to seek solitude and rustic peace in the only place they are to be found in France, in a fourth-floor flat in Paris overlooking the Champs-Elysees." Saint Giraud blames his troubles on Bonaparte.

There seems to be seething anger between those who love Bonaparte, like Julien, and those who despise Bonaparte. France is divided. I wonder. Is Julien ready for France? His tricks to succeed might not work in the big city.

Our male Mexican Redheaded Amazon has gone out of his skull these past few days. Clearly, he is ready and more than willing to mate. As Baudelaire would say, “les vents furibond de la concupiscence frappe ma chaire comme un vieux drapeau.”

When I read of Julien’s conduct, forcing himself on an not-unwilling married woman, risking detection to place a ladder against her house, I can only think, « some guys have all the luck. » What agonies he must have gone through day after day (that Beyle chose not to write about)in the forced celibacy of that seminary. ( I went through the same agonies as a geek at college pre-pill.) Raise your hand anyone who on a mental level now feels he or she oughtn’t to have got married at the age he or she did, but on an emotional level knows how impossible that would have been.

Now the real question: How did Marie keep from getting pregnant?

For rent: HOTEL PARTICULIER Paris 7 ieme arrondissement. Champs de Mars. Tres bel hotel de 900 m2 avec terrasse et jardin sur Champs de Mars. 2 garages, prix 3 room. 3,000 Euro - 5000 Euro/mois.

The last one in this link is in the center with a view on the Eiffel Tower. In France they still call a grand apartment "un hotel particulier" a grand house that has been transformed into either a condominium complex or luxury apartments for rent, expensive because 3,000 euro is worth at least $4,000 a month US. The facade facing the street doesn't do the interior justice I am sure.

Our impetuous Julien sets his goals very high, probably because he feels he is exceptional with his looks, his brain and his charming ways with the ladies. He knows too that his low birth is a big handicap, but if he becomes as brave as Napoleon he might accede to high positions either in the army or in the church.

He is feeling his way around in the De La Mole household trying to play his cards right. Just my thoughts though.

A man like him, to me, doesn't love anybody, only glory is what is worth living for.

zanybooks, thanks! In your post #399, you've thrown open a window and allowed some fresh air to ventilate the stuffy and boring atmosphere of the Marguis's drawing room conversations.

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce. Stendhal knew that, and he wrote about how those first principles were understood and applied by the society in which he lived. I get his point but, peasant that I am, I wish he'd provided much more detail about the practical (base) aspects of life in early 19th century France. For instance, why didn't he describe the physical aspects of Paris in the same way he painted the picture of Verrieres for us when we first entered that town?

Another for instance; I thought it was curious that, while Julien and Madame de Renal were carrying on their affair, no one seemed to be concerned about the possibility of pregnancy.

There were "hotels" outside of Paris also. I remember reading that Benjamin Franklin and other American ambassadors lived in "hotels" outside of Paris during the American Revolution. These hotels were considered to be mansions or chateaus.

Franklin lived at the Hotel de Valentinois which no longer stands. "When the seventy-one-year-old Franklin arrived in Paris in 1777, he was invited to stay with Le Ray de Chaumont, and international merchant who had made a fortune trading with East India and who was supplying the Insurgents with gunpowder. He owned the sumptuous Hotel de Valentinois (some called it a chateau) in Passy with an eighteen-acre garden overlooking Paris and the river Seine. He did not accept rent from Franklin who first settled in an independent pavilion called the 'Basse Cour.'

It was here that Franklin lived and worked with the other members of the American mission to the Court of France, Arthur Lee, Silas Deane and later John Adams and John Jay. It was here, too, that Franklin conducted experiments on electricity, and, in another building, set up a printing press. Towards the end of his stay, Franklin moved into the main house. After he was officially named Ambassador to France, he insisted on paying rent to Chaumont..."

http://www.waymarking.com/wm/details.aspx?f=1&guid=3e673b85-288e-440a-aadc-bbd82d252129

Zanybooks: Many men of the period certainly used condoms which had been around for eons, but they were used for protection from venereal disease rather than to protect against pregnancy. I imagine the unsophisticated Julien did not have any. Our author may have been quite shocking in the subject matter of the affair, but he more discreetly avoids the particulars. I had the feeling that the affair was so passionate that Julien and Mme did not even think about birth control. Perhaps Mme did afterward and that was one of the reasons she was so guilt-ridden?

Hi, I met Éloïse a few weeks ago and we got along quite fast. She told me about Senior Net and the book discussions we could have on the site, especially Le Rouge et Le Noir that I had to study when I was a teenager almost 50 years ago. I was very interested to participate in that kind of discussion, so she kindly gave me the address and instructions. So today I went to the public library to get the book and started to read in the bus on my way back to home. As I just started the reading, I'm not at the same place than all of you are, but I can read fast enough to get there pretty soon, I hope

I remember a little of the subject of the book especially because I saw a movie few years ago. I prefer to read it again before discussing on it.

Bonjour, Pompadour! Welcome to The Red and The Black discussion!

Allo Pompadour, what a lovely pseudo you chose. I am so happy that you are joining our group. We will have lots to talk about on the phone too won't we?

Julien is good-looking, ambitious, and smart. However, he is not charming (no one claims that he is). He tries to get what he wants by being crafty - but he often is just aggressive and blundering.

Yet those characters in the book who have the most integrity and honor (Abbe Chelan, Abbe Pirair, Fouque, Mme de Renal) befriend him. They must see something beyond the rather blow-hard presence he presents to the world. What is it?

Quelle belle surprise! I join the others in welcoming you to our world, Madame Pompadour! Another French-speaker too. C'est formidable! Bienvenue, Madame! Hats, yes, there seems to be a division - I'm not sure who loves Bonaparte and who doesn't. Except for Julien, of course. I spent some time this evening reading up on him and came across this very comprehensive link - will pull out some things I thought relevant to this discussion -

"The Bonapartist regime in France loudly proclaimed republican values, Liberty, Equality and Fraternity - especially outside France. Thus, it got an echo among the progressive and Liberal middle class and working class in other countries

The reality was that Bonapartism dealt the political regime established by the Revolution a final coup de grace. Under the pretext of "eliminating excesses" and "abolishing the Terror", Napoleon was really saying "the Revolution is over". His class base was the large layer of people who had done well out of the Revolution and who now wished to live in peace and quiet to enjoy the fruits of their success.

"He always treated the working men as inferiors," writes Alphonse Aulard. "By a law of Year XI and a decree of Year XII [1803 and 1804] he placed them under police supervision, prescribed for them the possession of an identity book without which they were liable to arrest as vagabonds, once more prohibited unions and strikes on pain of imprisonment, and charged the Prefect of Police with the settlement of wage disputes. It was a relapse into the ancien regime when the Code Napoleon laid down that in such disputes the word of the employer was to be taken. The plebiscite might be the foundation of a new regime, but here as in other cases, Bonaparte gave evidence of an inclination to destroy equality and to divide French society into a politically and socially privileged bourgeois class and a subordinate plebeian class."

In the end the Great French Revolution disappointed the hopes of the masses and the whole process went into reverse. But the wheel of history did not return to the staring point. The Revolution carried out a profound transformation of the economic and class relations in France. It radically abolished feudalism and laid the basis for the rise of capitalism and therefore of the working class, the vehicle for the establishment of socialism. The Rise and Fall of Napoleon

- Road King, it seems that Julien had something else on his mind when he came entered Paris - which explains why he didn't describe what he was seeing. I think he was looking for signs that Napoleon had been there. Remember the first place he wanted to see when he got off the train? Malmaison - where Napoleon's Josephine held court. Tears again - this time real ones. He wasn't interested in the street scene - or the grand hôtels, although he was all eyes once he entered L'Hôtel de la Mole, wasn't he?

Hats - in the street scenes RK described, the women "hawking tisanes" were selling tea - and since conditions were so unsanitary, I'll bet they were selling medicinal teas.

Marni, Eloise - thank you for the photos of the grand hôtels. Do you think that the word "hotel" came from these grand old homes that were turned into rented rooms?

I was interested to read how highly the French regarded our Ben - from the link Marni provided -

"When the news of his death reached Paris in 1790, the emotion was such that, in the middle of the French Revolution, the National Assembly decided to adjourn for the day.

Franklin was never forgotten. When the violent and anti-religious French Assembly, La Convention, changed the calendar in 1793, it replaced Christian saints by Republican heroes. Benjamin Franklin was one of them">

zanyb - interesting conversation you started up this afternoon - I'd never thought of the possibility of pregnancy. If Julien and Madame talked about it, Stendhal left that conversation private between the two of them.

I'm more inclined to agree with Marni - they, Madame in particular seems not to have given it much thought - they didn't teach her such things at Sacred Heart Convent. (I hope she isn't pregnant now following the last visit!) I smiled at Marni's comment - "they (condoms) were used for protection from venereal disease rather than to protect against pregnancy." They got that wrong, didn't they?

A note from Planned Parenthood site - "Sin or no sin, by the early 19th century coitus interruptus was one of the most popular methods of birth control in the world."

ps. Come on, zanyb admit that Madame put up quite a fight when he forced himself into her room...

Thanks so much for the information on cela, Joan. The Norton edition seems to have many more notes than my B&N edition.

I am not sure what type of experiment that the marquis is conducting.

In Chapter Three, M. Tanbeau was in the library near Julien when the marquis entered and asked what he was doing there. The marquis said, “This is a try-on, but it is an unfortunate one.”

“Young Tanbeau rose in a fury and left the room. He was a nephew of the Academician, Madame de La Mole's friend, and was intended for a literary career. The Academician had persuaded the Marquis to take him as a secretary. Tanbeau, who worked in a room apart, having heard of the favour that was being bestowed upon Julien, was anxious to share it, and that morning had come and set up his desk in the library.”

Maybe he is treating Julien and Tanbeau, who are of similar backgrounds and hold similar positions in his household, differently to see how they react. I am thinking of the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy and Dan Ackroyd (spelling?). A rich man and a poor man traded places which resulted in the former rich man acting like the poor man did when he was poor and the former poor man acting like the rich man did when he was rich.

- LauraD - I'm more interested in these "experiments" than anything else right now. So the experiment includes M. Tanbeau, the academicien. If Tanbeau is the nephew of the Marquise, then perhaps he is higher up on the social ladder than Julien. The Marquis seems to be grooming Julien to look like an aristocrat. Does he think that appearances are everything? What does he see in Julien that interests him? He is intelligent - he is passionate, perhaps? Qualities his own bored children are not?

Glencora asks the same question of those who seem to have integrity who see something special in him - Abbé Chelan, Abbé Pirard, Fouqué, Mme de Rênal - Is it simply because he is different, because he has passion that will not be denied? Isn't this a very, very rare quality at this time?
Éloïse - "A man like him, to me, doesn't love anybody, only glory is what is worth living for." Doesn't he sound just like Napoleon?

JOAN, I too have fallen behind, working on other projects, and am trying hard to catch up.

Since you asked: Napoleon's past was not really like Julien's.
Tomorrow I'll post some biographical data on his father, Carlo Buonaparte, a lawyer.

Before joining the group, I have read some of the comments of some other members and one of you, sorry I don't remember the name, have found funny the consonance of Verrières.

I can explain that the word "verrière" in french means a room all surrounded by glasses or windows.

Maybe that's the reason why Stendhal named this little city Verrières, because in that kind of room it is possible to see everything from the outside, usually there is no curtain in this type of room.

Thank you JoanP for the information about the Bonapartists. Also, thank you Eloise for your link of the hotel.

By mistake Julien steps on the Marquis' heel, I think this is why the Marquis might feel dancing lessons could help Julian. Julien didn't step on the Marquis' feet because of clumsiness. Julien remembered M. de Renal struggling to be the first to enter any room. This is not important to the Marquis. Already, Julien is meeting with new behaviors. I wonder. Is Paris going to be topsy turvy to the manners Julien was use to in Verriere?

It does seem that the Marquis' goal is to make Julien a dandy. Julien only owns two linen shirts. The Marquis orders twenty-two more linen shirts for Julien.

"In contrast, Count Norbert seemed admirable to him from every point of view. Julien was so captivated that it did not occur to him to be jealous and to hate him for being richer and nobler than he was."

This is not the "old" Julien. It's a new leaf being shown, isn't it?

Glencora asks: “Yet those characters in the book who have the most integrity and honor (Abbe Chelan, Abbe Pirair, Fouque, Mme de Renal) befriend him. They must see something beyond the rather blow-hard presence [Julien] presents to the world. What is it?”

My first response is that they think him to be a person of integrity and honor too. However, I am second guessing myself because I am trying to remember if any of these characters listed has seen more than one side to him. Madame de Renal has not. I don’t think Fouque has. I think Abbe Chelan has guessed at Julien’s indecision and hypocrisy. I am not sure about Abbe Pirair.

This is a good question to think about as we read further.

I must comment on Chapter Four. I found it to be confusing and boring. Can we possibly be expected to remember all of these characters? I don’t think so. I think they must represent different political ideas in society at the time. I found myself almost skimming the chapter.

To me, the most important part comes at the very end of the chapter:

“'And so,' thought Julien, as he heard the sound of their laughter on the staircase, 'I have been allowed to see the opposite extreme to my own position! I have not an income of twenty louis, and I have found myself rubbing shoulders with a man who has an income of twenty louis an hour, and they laughed at him ... A sight like that cures one of envy.'”

There is the idea of contrasts again --- Julien saw the opposite of his own position.

As Hats said, “This is not the "old" Julien. It's a new leaf being shown, isn't it?”

Bonjours, mes amis!

- Oh Madame Pompadour - you remind us that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. There are not many in "Verrières" who are innocent of charges of hypocrisy and greed, are there?

- hats - I'm not sure the new rarefied atmosphere of Paris is good for Julien. He doesn't look well, does he? He is maintaining a low profile, keeping his mouth shut and swallowing his pride - even letting them laugh at him. In fact, he's laughing at himself - or pretends to be - in order to ingratiate himself with him. This can't be easy on inners - I worry about ulcers.

- LauraD - how are we to get through the "confusing' and therefore "boring" Chapter 4? I think Julien feels the same way - the whole social scene is so confusing to him he begins to take notes about the characters he's meeting in the de la Moles' drawing room -

I think that's a good idea, skimming the chapter, not chasing down the political background and beliefs of each character - BUT, let's take a few notes, as Julien is doing - about the groups they represent - Let's not get bogged down - that will be our motto! But let's be sure to notice what is important to the story.

The first group are old family friends - there seem to be five or six of them. Some friends - the Marquis and Marquise seem to take pleasure in making fun of them and insulting them to their faces. No wonder Mlle. de la Mole does the same thing - she's learning from watching her parents? Why do they take it? And more importantly perhaps - why do the Marquis and Marquise invite them to their home if they are so ridiculous?

LauraD - I suppose it is a some consolation to Julien's pride to see his social superiors getting shot down, just as he is.

I thought, "Oh, No!" when Julien started writing down notes about people in the Marquis' house. I figured someone would find them and use them against him. I was relieved when Julien burned them.

Thank you to Joan and all others to welcome me so friendly, I appreciate so much.

Éloïse I agree with you, we will have lots of talking together, if only we can find the time. You're so busy and so do I.

I am still in the first chapter, but so long it seems to me that M. De Rênal is looking very much for prestige and power. He tries hard to obtain all appearance of power he can

I was fascinated by the fact that in Chap. 8 Stendhal stops the action and says the following to his readers.

"There are a good number of people in society who would like to establish the fact that nothing is in such bad form as a conspiracy in the 19th century: it smacks of Jacobinism. And what could be more sordid than unsuccessful Jacobinism."

I tried to understand this and resd it over many times. I looked up Jacobism (I know we had an explanation here before). There had to be something else. Here are some of the more important facts I gleaned.

Jacobins:A Catholic religous order . They are also referred to as the Blackfriars. In France Their first convent was built in Paris. They were also known as"the Hounds of God" because of their supreme obedience to the faith. They fell into Absolutism and had little sympathy for democratic ideas..

In another meaning of the name -Jacobins had been popularly applied to all promulgates of extreme revolutionary politics. In contempary French thought the term refers to a centralised Govt.

Finally , the biggest surprise: ...The Jacobin movement was run from Britain by the British Foreign Office. It was the ideology of the most radical element of the French Revolution that instituted the reign of terror.

In the end I decide that Stendhal is talking about Comte Altamira who is interested in Mathilde. However I think this also refers to the fact that Julien is changing. His ideas are expanding. He is not stuck in his past. He does not want to be a failed revolutionary.He craves success more than any principle.

Judy

Judy

on le sais le mot "balourdise?"

ZANY, balourdise, n. : le charactère d'une personne; ou une chose faite ou dite sans esprit et mal à propos .

English : a character trait, or, something done or said mindlessly and at the wrong time; doltishness, blunder.
From the Italian "balordo" = grossier, en français , in English coarse (uneducated etc.), stupid.

JOAN, here as promised.

He was born in 1769 as Napoleone Buonaparte on Corsica in Ajaccio, the island's capital, the second of eight children.

His father, Carlo Buonaparte, and his mother, Letizia Ramolino Buonaparte, were Corsican-Italian gentry. Carlo studied law in Rome and fought for Corsican independence. At that time Corsica was ruled by the city of Genoa, which had taken possession in 1284.

The French occupied Corsica in 1769, Carlo Buonaparte served as prosecutor and judge. After documenting his genealogy in court, he became part of the French aristocracy as a count.

Due to his father's influence Napoleon was educated at the expense of King Louis XVI at Brienne and at the École militaire in Paris. He graduated in 1785 at 16 and joned the artillery as a second lieutenant. No Buonaparte had ever been a professional soldier.

After the Revolution, he became a lieutenant colonel in the Corsican National Guard (in 1791), but in 1793 Corsica declared its independence. Bonaparte, a French patriot and a Republican, fled to France with his family. After that things happened quickly.

He was assigned as captain to an army besieging Toulon, a naval base, that, aided by a Fritish fleet, was in revolt against the republic. Replacing a wounded artillery general, Napoleon seized ground where his guns could drive the British fleet from the harbor, and Toulon fell.
Napoleonn was promoted to brigadier general at the age of 24. In 1795 he saved the revolutionary government by dispersing an insurgent mob in Paris. In 1796 he married Joséphine Beauharnais, the widow of an aristrocrat guillotined in the Revolution, mother of two children.

His rise was meteoric, his name is legend to this day.

Bonjours, mes amis - mes amis? I do hope you aren't overwhelmed in de la Mole's drawing room. And if you survived that, the Duke de Retz's ball should do you in! Please don't let it throw you. Consider poor Julien - who must be more confused as we are! (at least he knows some of these names!

Zany focuses our attention on his situation. He has no confidante to guide him, no one that he can trust - except Abbé Pirard who is warning him to watch his back - and trust no one!

"Keep in mind that this rabble of lackeys...when they see you in place here, will try to ridicule you; they will see in you an equal, unjustly promoted over their heads. Under the guise of good nature, good advice, attempts to help you along, they'll try to push you into some stupid blunder." (Chapter 2)

This is good advice from the trusted Abbé, but have you noticed Julien beginning to compare the Abbé's appearance - rather unfavorably - with some of the more aristocratic in the crowd? I'm afraid Julien is taken in by the grandeur that surrounds him. He does take note of the Marquis' likes and dislikes - Marni notes that he has burned his notebooks after he learns that the Marquis does not like "scribblers."

Judy - you have stretched my understanding of "Jacobins" - hitherto thought of simply as rabid "revolutionaries". It isn't until I see Julien come alive in the company of writers, poets, liberals, advocates of free speech, that I see a real change in him. But do you suppose that he is changing - or finding expression of what has been in his heart all along? What a relief to hear them speak after the stilted conversation in de la Mole's salon.

Were you surprised to encounter the "free thinking liberals" mixing with the nobles? When Judy mentioned Comte Altamira's interest in Mathilde, I had to stop and think about that. If he returns to his own country, he will be hanged for his liberal views, he tells Julien, and yet here he is, speaking as freely as he pleases. And captivating our Mathilde's at the same time.

Notice that the Comte shows no interest at all in Mathilde. What do you make of her? Does your translation continue to describe her as a "big" woman, a "big doll"? Do you find the lines between the liberals and the nobility blurred - almost beyond recognition? Can it be that everyone agrees, but not all are free to express their sentiments? What does Julien think of all this? I have to believe that he is exhilarated!

I'm not surprised that Mathilde is interested in such conversation - those in her own crowd are only free to talk about the weather, it appears.

Madame Pompadour - your observation that M. de Rênal is seeking prestige and power in Verrières - exactly as those in Paris - reminds me of the last time we saw him - the day Julien left town. Do you think that the shame and dishonor came to him as a result of his wife's behaviour? Everyone in this little town must have heard about the Mayor's domestic problem. Maslon and Valenod would have been morally outraged.

Julien doesn't seem to have any concern at all for any of the Rênals, does he? Even when he heard on the train about Valenod taking over de Rênal's position. You would have thought - he would have enquired about Madame. Fouqué could have enquired - he seemed to know about the goings on in Verrières when Madameturned "religious" - remember? He seems to have forgotten her.

Julien did express some concern about her children if anything terrible happened their parents. He promised himself he'd look after the boys. I recall Madame daydreaming that if anything were to happen to her husband and she a widow - that she and Julien would marry someday. He would be a better father to her children than M. de Rênal ever was. But have you ever heard Julien express any thought of marriage?

Traudee, thank you for providing more on Napoleon. What caught my eye was the fact that Napoleon, (Julien's idol) had married the widow Josephine - the mother of two sons." I wonder if this explains why Julien burst into tears when he first saw Malmaison - Josephine's court?

We still don't know much about the Marquis' "experiments", do we? Is the Marquise in on them? Sometimes I see them as two bored people with nothing better to do than play with people's lives - but at other times, I'm not so sure. Are they pitting their favorites against one another? They remind me of the duke and duchess in Don Quixote, remember?

Who is this "Great Lady of Pious Disposition"? Surely Stendhal jests! Does the Marquise seem to be another enemy Julien must watch? If the Marquis doesn't have his own spies on Julien, she just might!

I am amazed at Stendhal's perspicacity when he writes about each one of his characters, he knew what a young fellow would feel of course because he had been one himself.

I can understand Julien's emotion when he finds himself in the magnificent de La Mole library. "He went hiding in a dark corner, from where he could contemplate with 'ravissement' the shiny book covers, I will be able to read all this", he says and: "He almost became crazy with happiness at finding a complete edition of Voltaire.... He gave himself the pleasure of opening each one of the 80 volumes." If he didn't love many people, at least he loved books. Perhaps that was his passion was after all.

The marquis thought very little of Julien when he spelled cela with two ll's and he was thinking that "hiring a little priest' was a waste of time. But the marquis needed a man he could trust". So he will let this spelling mistake go by. The Marquis will carry that mistake far enough so that Julien will never be able to live it down no matter how hard he tried. Class distinction was an impregnable wall nobody could pass.

But when dinner guests tried to stump Julien with Horace, he became more sure of himself and he was going to show them of what stuff he was made of even if an "Academicien des Inscriptions", a latinist was his adversary.

In the original French, Beyle uses "etc." freely in a manner that would be unthinkable today in English or French. (unless, Steinfelds's "yada, yada" is equivalent.

I have read five chapters of Book Two and am planning to finish the final three chapters tonight and tomorrow. I am hoping that the liberals and nobles groups will become more clear as I finish this section.

If up till now I have paid almost all my attention to Julien I have now found it most interesting to get to know Mathilde and her thoughts.

First remarks made about Mathilde (Chap.

: 1) She had the misfortune to have more brains than MM....and her other friends. 2)He left Mathilde, who was the prettiest person at the ball... 3)She could not possibly have been more of a success. She was queen of the ball.

Now Mathildes own thoughts (chap.

: 1) Those fine eyes which was the home of the deepest ennui, and worse still of the despair of ever finding pleasure lingered on Julien: 'At any rate , he is not like the others. 2) You are a wise man Monsieur Sorel...to look at all these balls all these festivities like a philosopher, like J.J.Rousseau.... 3)What pretty proof this is of my maxim that good birth deprives a man of that fierceness of character in defeat of which a man does not get condemmed to death... 4) Since I am a woman like any other, well, I must dance.

It seems that Julien has met his match in Mathilda. It is a toss up who will ruin who--but at least Mathilde has more advantage on her side than the oh so sweet and innocent M.de Renal. But then again Julien has gathered more sophistication , clothes and money than when he was a simpler lad.I do not know where to lay my bet.

Judy

Ye gads ! How did those emoticons get into what I wrote? All material is from chapter 8. Judy

I just finished Book I, chapter 4, and I am surprised to discover that Julien's father, M. Sorel, is so defiant toward the love of his son for the books.

It's so different than it was here in Québec in the same years.

In those days, for each family, it was a pride to have a son with large education. It's true, however, that to obtain this education, most of them had to become a priest or a nun for girls. Parents did their best, to patronize the education of at least one of their children, usually the youngest or the most talented.

I know that the Clergy was very strong in here, but is it the only reason for that difference? Will I learn other reasons farther in the book?

Ahah! I knew Julien would fight a duel! But what a strange one! I did not understand M. de Beauvoisis, the blond duelist in the dressing gown. It seemed he simply wanted to duel? His carriage man gave Julien the dark looks which, of course, inspired Julien to want to duel with him, and then gave Julien Beauvoisis' card. Julien tracked down the owner of the card with his second and eventually Beauvoisis and Julien dueled in a "civilized" manner. Then it was over, Julien with a ball in his arm. Very much the gentlemen? I don't think I really understand how it all came about.

At any rate.....Beauvoisis was appalled to find out that Julien was merely a secretary in de la Mole's house. How embarrassing for Beauvoisis to duel with so low a man! So he spread around a story that Julien was really the "natural" son of an intimate friend of de la Mole.

Is Stendahl just making fun of the practice of dueling of the times?

But then the "natural" son business.? In the next chapter de la Mole tells Pirard "I know Julien's birth and I authorise you not to regard this confidence as a secret." ???? Does he know the rumor spread by Beauvoisis or does he know something else?

And the business with de la Mole playing the games pretending Julien was the Duke's son in the blue suit & then with the cross! The Marquis is starting to get me concerned. What a strange relationship between him and Julien. Is this pretense and games for de la Mole's entertainment because he is bored? He certainly is amused by Julien. How long will this last? I bet not long. However, he tells Julien up front than when he tires of Julien, he will give him a good living like what was done for Pirard.

What is the cross anyway? How did the cross earn Julien a visit from Valenod?

Looked in today after a very busy week and found more than 60 posts to catch up. Added to that I have not finished our assigned reading. I think I need to get a life so I can enjoy with you.

Isn't it great how Stendhal uses little incidents in his own life to add colour and reality to the story and characters -eg. As Joan points out the confusion of the spelling of'cela/cella' occured in Stendhal's life too. There seem to be many instances using that kind of minor detail scattered throughout the novel which are not only drawn from Stendhal's own experience but that of others as well, both friends and foes.

Will read more of your intriguing and erudite posts this evening.

I just loved Chapter Six! It provided so much food for thought. Because the Chevalier and the Marquis are both willing and able to create a false belief that Julien is from a higher place in society than is really true, a lie that is in Julien’s favor, I am afraid that they will be willing and able to do the opposite --- create a false belief that is not in Julien’s favor. Hmmm…

Beyle's Julien is a remarkably accurate portrait of a young man of any age,as he views the world and events therein solely in terms of how they will affect him. (lest I be thought sexist or agist, it also describes the young american women of today and far too many so-called adults.) For those who would protest that he is self-centered and immature, and you, what were you like at his age?

Uh oh! I see a premonition in chapter 8. Mathilde, queen of the ball, in her ennui looking at Julien with Comte Altamira, says, "I think being condemned to death is the only real distinction. It is the only thing which cannot be bought." Altamira has been condemned to death in his own country and has sought asylum here.

Mathilde continues a bit later: "Which of them could get himself condemned to death, even supposing he had a favourable opportunity?"

Now I'm wondering if Mathilde will put this thought into Julien's mind. We know he is always looking for means of distinguishing himself, seeking out risk, and he abhors those who are "bought."

Will Julien eventually seek to be condemned to death to display his valor?

This chapter presents a theme that had intrigued me for years ever since I first set about looking for a room in my college days. Each door I opened, each person I met seemed to present a new world whose full nature I could only guess at. (Sci-fi authors like Fredrick Pohl tend to take this theme even further with gateways that do indeed open onto new worlds.)

In chapter 7 we learn that Valenod, the governor of the Verrières' Poorhouse, has become a Baron and may become the next mayor.

Monsieur de Rênal (recently perceived to be a Jacobin!), has apparently fallen out of favor with the powers that be in Paris. Recall that M. de Rênal (in chapter 2), built a retaining wall on the Verriêres avenue "in defiance of all Ministers of the Interior past and present". Is that defiant indiscretion, committed several years ago, now going to cause him to suffer the same fate as those plane trees in the Cours de la Fidélité that he ordered to be “trimmed and pollarded” in such a barbarous manner?

Bon après-midi, mes amis,

Zany - I don't remember being as confident and arrogant as Julien at his young age - but I do remember believing that the world was my oyster, that I could do anything I wanted to do with my life. (I guess this is a form of arrogance, isn't it?) All I needed to do was make up my mind what that would be. You know, I don't think I ever made such a decision. Things just sort of evolved.

Your analogy sums up the situation parfaitement! Julien might be self-centered and immature, but at least he knows to keep his mouth shut - it's funny to watch him moving to each group, taking notes, but gravitating to those who have something to say. He visits two different social gatherings. First the de la Moles' salons in Chapter 4 and then some time later, another big appearance at the Duke de Retz's ball in Chapter 8.

Since many of you are a bit behind - and Chapter 4 is where you became mired, let's tack a few more days to the schedule - to tackle some of the many questions you are asking. If we work together, we can come out of the ball with a better understanding of the Parisien society that will make or break Julien. I'll go add two more days to the schedule right now.

Book II -	DATES
Chapters 1 - 8	April 30 - May 8
Chapters 9 - 16	May 9 - May 15

Will put this revised schedule in the heading - and then try to gather your questions from recent posts so we can tackle them together. There are too many for me to answer myself!!!

ps. Judy asked about where the emoticons come from - some others have been wondering the same.

1. If you type in : and ) together, with no space between them, you get

2. If you type 8 - ) together with no space between them, you get - which is what you did.

All sorts of combinations of symbols make these little emoticons. Here's a chart - you make enjoy playing with them - or you might want to avoid them too!

Emoticon Help

This is the chapter that confused...and "bored" quite a number of you - the names were overwhelming. Laura did writes that she hopes the liberals and nobles groups will become more clear as she finished this section. Did those of you who finished find this to be so?
I'm still having trouble with the liberals. At first I thought it was funny that the nobles kept quiet, afraid to say the wrong thing - and the liberals were free thinkers, unafraid to express themselves in society. But weren't the liberals striving to advance too? Why would they risk offending the Marquis by speaking of tabu subjects - and lose everything? I can see where the Marquis and his wife would be bored with their own set. Somewhere in this chapter it says that it is the Marquise who wishes to host these salons if they wanted any socializing at all. But they found no amusement in the company of their old friends.

I am still confused after finishing Chapter 4 - and even more so in Chapter 8 when we get to the Duke de Retz's ball. How did you see the liberals in Chapter 4? And how do you perceive Mlle. Mathilde de la Mole? I'll agree with you, Judy - she needs our close attention.

<<Le baron présidait un collège: il eut l'idée lumineuse d'escamoter les petite carrés de papier portent les votes d'un des partis. Mais, pour qu'il y eût compensation, il les remplaçait à mesure par d'autres petite morceaux de papier portent un nom qui lui était agréable.>>

See, Chapter 4, The Con in Armed Madness by Greg Palast an analysis of the 2000 and 2004 US Presidential elections.

Zany, you are right, of course - things don't change much over time, do they? The famous (infamous?) Baron de Tolly causes quite a stir when he enters the de la Moles' salon. He was in charge of the recent election (there are elections, then, not all appointments?) - but the Baron had the bright idea of fixing the elections, substituting votes to his liking. But our Marquis is not pleased and the fellow slinks out. Were the de la Moles not happy with the election results? How did they regard the whole concept of elections? If a candidate is appointed, wouldn't that eliminate election fraud?

Why is the title of this chapter, "the great lady of pious disposition"? Am I missing something here? Do you see anything "pious" in the Marquise? What is clear - she makes fun of Julien. Even has word with the Marquis about his presence in her home.

Are we to understand that she is interested in the Baron de la Joumate - the empty-minded creature with the wooden face she would like to see as her daughter's husband? But why would this gain her the title of a "pious disposition?"

Can Stendhal comparing her in some way to Comte Altamira - the Jansenist condemned to die for his liberalism and piety?

I'm feeling really badly for Julien during this period. He needs to get a hold of himself. He's working too hard too. He needs some sort of diversion...Why is he weeping? Is this job too much for him?

Marni - a strange duel, yes! Notice Julien hasn't lost his pride - the carriage man had simply stared at him and he took offense! Just like in the billiard café. Notice now that Julien is walking around with loaded pistols. I thought he was going to open fire right on the spot - but he remembered that he was a gentleman and wanted to do things right.

He arranged for a second - and confronted the carriage man - who turned out to be the noble - Beauvoisis, who understood that as a gentleman, he must accept the challenge, even though the carriage man didn't work for him any more. They dueled in a "civilized manner" - Julien took a bullet but as you say, something had to be done about Julien's low birth or the chevalier would never live it down that he dueled with someone of low birth.

Do you suppose this chapter is here for comic relief? I'd be surprised if Stendhal was making fun of dueling - because the practice continued for quite a while after - didn't it?

As you point out, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last that Julien's paternity is brought into question.

Madame Pompadour - coming on strong back in Book I - is asking whether we will learn why his "father" is so violently opposed to Julien's natural love for books. Will she learn the reasons later in the book, she asks? Will we? I remember thinking how different Julien was from the his brothers. Do you think he belongs to this Sorel family in Verrières?

How did you take de la Mole's comment L'abbé Pirard - "I know Julien's birth and I authorize you not to regard this confidence as a secret." He WANTS L'Abbé to spread the rumor that Julien is the illegitimate son of the Duke de Retz? Wait? Isn't the Duke de Retz the one who is throwing the ball in Chapter 8?

Can anyone venture a guess as to what is going on in the mind o Marquis de la Mole when he has his secretary don the blue suit? He treats him as an equal when he wears le bleu, did you notice?

Éloïse - describes "class distinction was an impregnable wall nobody could pass." Is the Marquis thinking differently now. Are appearances really everything at this period in history? Give the provincial dancing lessons, some linen shirts and a blue suit and he is anyone's equal.

Marni asks - "Is this pretense and games for de la Mole's entertainment because he is bored?" If it is, Julien's pride is in for a terrible shock. But maybe it is more than a game with the Marquis. But what?

He tells Julien that the reason he sent him to England was to prepare him for a diplomatic office. We're told that the Marquis' son had requested this post 18 months ago - but did he do anything to earn it? Marni, I think of the cross as a symbol of Julien's new office - looking something like this -

This is a new role for Julien - not sure if he returns to put on his black suit and act as the secretary, depending on the work load.

It appears that Valenod has recently been named "baron" - isn't this what the Mayor had wanted? Road King reports that Valenod may take over Rênal's job as Mayor. The irony is that Valenod is now considered a conservative, de Rênal a liberal. (The area is heavily conservative. I'd say he's been "pruned," RK!

So then, why did Valenod come to see Julien? He wants a favor and Julien in his new position is able to grant it - if he wishes. Will this go to Julien's head?

Come on, Gum - you can catch us!

Why is Mathilde insisting that Julien attend the ball at the home of the Duke de Retz? Do you think the rumor has been spread that Julien is his illegitimate younger brother? Is she this bored that she wants to see how it will play out when the two meet?

Judy quotes - "Those fine eyes which was the home of the deepest ennui, and worse still of the despair of ever finding pleasure - is she looking for a man who can prove his valor by seeking death? Oh, Julien, look out! Can't you see him accepting her challenge out of pride?

Judy - I do not know where to lay my bet. I guess I really don't believe she is playing with him - (neither was Madame de Rênal) - She is really attracted to his mind - I think. Julien thinks she'd be a challenge - if she isn't setting a trap for him. I guess I'd put my money on - - Julien!

In chapter 7 we learned that Monsieur de Rênal was going to lose his mayor's job because it had been discovered that he was a Jacobin. That revelation puzzled me. Was it really possible that M. de Rênal had abandoned his "True Blue" ultra politics and become a liberal? Why would he have taken that drastic step? I then recalled the converstaion between Julien's mail coach companions in chapter 1 (Book Two).

Saint-Geraud told Falcoz that the oppressive realities of provincial politics had forced him to overcome his apolitical nature. In order to win a few lawsuits, he had "turned Liberal". When Saint-Geraud kept on lamenting about how impossible it was to live in the provinces, because of politics, Julien mildly disagreed with him and "timidly cited the example of M. de Rênal".

Recall Saint-Geraud's vigorous retort? M. de Rênal "has turned himself into a hammer so as not to be made an anvil". That pharase went over my head at the time, but now I understand it. The mayor had switched parties.

To those of you who may be feeling a bit bored by the endless parade of empty suits and their vacuous conversations in the Marquis' drawing room - take heart and keep going. By the time you get through the astounding chapter 10, I think you'll have recovered your enthusiasm for the story.

"L'idée la plus utile aux tyrans est celle de Dieu, lui avait dit Vane..."

see also the writings of Samuel Harris

Having now completed this section of reading, I have put together my thoughts on the politics of this section. Here’s the path I followed and the conclusions I made:

First, I did a little research… I reminded myself to which political groups the different characters of the novel belonged. From the context section of the Sparks Notes study guide for The Red and The Black:

“This period, known as the Restoration, marked a time of intense political debate. The fading aristocracy or conservatives tried to reintroduce absolutism and consolidate political power in the Catholic Church and the Army. But a rising middle class with commercial and industrial interests had become a dominant social force throughout France. This bourgeoisie, nostalgic for the glory days of the Revolution and Napoleon, sought a return to a constitutional monarchy and more laissez-faire economic policy.”

“From the provincial nobility to the Catholic Church, to the elite Parisian aristocracy, Stendhal depicts a society about to undergo a profound change--a change that the dying aristocracy will not live to see.”

Second, I read this interesting statistic in Wikipedia on the Fall of the Restoration, 1827-1830:

“While the French economy faltered, a series of elections brought a relatively powerful liberal bloc into the Chamber of Deputies. The 17-strong liberal bloc of 1824 grew to 180 in 1827, and 274 in 1830.”

Third, I thought of Joan asking why the liberals were in the salon of the Marquis.

Fourth, I remembered that M. de Renal switched political parties. From the end of Chapter Seven, there is this quote:

“M. de Renal who was the Liberal candidate at the great electoral college of the department...”

Fifth, I thought about the experiment of the Marquis, and how he seemed to be grooming Julien to fit in better with the upper class.

Sixth, I recalled reading early in Chapter Nine the following statement that Mathilde said to herself:

“This Sorel has something like my father’s look when he goes to a fancy dress ball as Napoleon.”

I assumed that the Marquis was making fun of Napoleon by dressing like him at a costume party.

I put all these thoughts together and surmised that the Marquis is one of the people becoming more liberal. That is why he is experimenting with Julien and class. Then, I couldn’t help but think of Julien and Mathilde as a possible future couple and think that the Marquis may approve, if he is revising his political views like so many other people seemed to do.

One or some of you may have said something similar already. I must confess to not reading or skimming posts that dealt with parts of the reading I had not completed yet, so I need to go back over the posts for this section of reading.

Oh my goodness, Laura, you have been busy! I followed the progression of your thoughts - right up to

"the Marquis is one of the people becoming more liberal."

C'est formidable, ça! I've been rereading these chapters, trying to figure out where the Marquis stands, and what is behind his "experiments."

Road King writes of M. de Rênal and M. Valenod - two more shape-shifters in the novel. RK - thank you for posting this - "M. de Rênal has turned himself into a hammer so as not to be made an anvil". Wonderful writing, isn't it? - we can get so involved in the story that we move right past metaphors like this.

I have a footnote in Chapter 7, addressing the party-switching of de Rênal/Valenod -

"Liberals and reactionaries, though ostensible enemies trade positions easily in the works of Stendhal; there is not really much to choose between them."

If M. Valenod, the poorhouse director can become a baron, I suppose anything is possible. I cannot wait to hear what our comrades think of your conclusion regarding the changing political beliefs of the Marquis! I do know that he is amused by the liberals, who are not afraid to express themselves - and bored by those who have nothing to say. Who wouldn't be?

In this chapter the Marquis is confined to his home for quite some time because of his gout. Wasn't it sad to read how Norbert stopped in to see him every morning - but they really had nothing to say to one another? On the other hand, he is fond of Julien, who becomes like a son to him, he says. Julien becomes very aware of this.

Our Zany is one of the our group who is reading the novel in French. (Eloise has expressed regrets that we are missing much by not reading it in la belle langue.)

"L'idée la plus utile aux tyrans est celle de Dieu, lui avait dit Vane..."
"The idea most useful for the tyrants is that of God"

This quote comes from Chapter 7 while Julien is in England. He visits Philip Vane, an "enemy of the aristocracy","who has been imprisoned for 7 years. I have a footnote that relates

"this character is based on a free-thinking disciple of Tom Paine who suffered years of imprisonment as a result of his devotion to free speech."

Julien has not met a more cheerful man in all of England, we're told. I wonder if this prisoner was singing? M. Valenod would not have been pleased.
Stendhal's atheism and disdain for the church is just under the surface, isn't it?

When sitting in conversation with the Marquis during his gout days, Julien hides two things from the Marquis -

His fanatical admiration of Napoleon

His own perfect unbelief, which hardly suited a clergyman

Is this the first time in the novel that we are told that Julien, the former seminarian and bishop-to-be - is not a believer?
The young man has a whole vestful of secrets, doesn't he - a Napoleon-fanatic, free-thinking, non-believer...

Joan, this is not the first time in the novel that we are told that Julien is not a believer. You will remember that was revealed to us as early as chapter 5. Julien's "trilogy" was Rousseau's Confessions, the collection of reports of the Grand Army and the Memorial de Sainte-Helene. "Never did he believe in any other", wrote Stendhal.

Recall the reason for his New Testament studies: "To win over the old priest Chelan, upon whom he saw quite clearly that his own future depended, he had learned by heart the entire New Testament in Latin; he knew also M. de Maistre's book Du Pape, and had as little belief in one as in the other."

He has, on occasion, been quite affected by Roman Catholic pomp, pageantry and priestly vestments but, as far as I can tell, he has attached no belief in Christian theology to those attractive superficialities.

While in the provinces, I had a better understanding of Julien. Now, in high sociey, Paris, I find him more complicated. He does seem to be holding "a vestful of secrets" as JoanP posted. Unless I have gotten lost in all of this unknown territory, I thought Julien admired the philosopher, Rousseau. In chapter 8, Julien makes this statement about Rousseau.

"'Jean-Jacques Rousseau', he replied, 'is no more than a fool in my eyes when he takes it upon himself to judge high society; he didn't understand it, and brought to it the heart of an upstart lackey.'"

While talking, Julien wears "an expression of disdain that was maybe somewhat exaggerated."

Is Julien pretending to dislike Rousseau in order to fit in with those in high society?

Will the real Julien please stand up? Have we ever met the real Julien? I thought the real Julien was the one looking at nature with admiring eyes. Now, I doubt it. I think he loves nature in a different way than most people. Julien sees in nature the mighty power, the boldness, the majesty, the power to survive, all the traits held by men in power. Is it possible to be envious even of nature, a force without speech or emotions? If he could do an experiment, give himself the traits of nature, Julien would do it.

No wonder Road king wrote about reading slowly. I feel like beginning the book again in order to take a new look at Julien. What is Stendahl trying to tell us through this one man's life about the universal side of Paris at the time after the Revolution? Was it mostly decadent, without scruples? How did people who were not Juliens survive in a world of hypocrisy? Did they not survive? It does seem like this is a world where only the fittest can survive.

Mathilde is intelligent and bored. She is looking for new entertainment. I think she is a dangerous woman. Mathilde reminds me of Salome, she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Boredom can cause a person to exhibit very odd and dangerous behavior. Death distinguishes a man in Mathilde's sight.

"The only thing I can think of that distinguishes a man is a death sentence, Mathile thought: it's all there is that can't be bought."

Titian's Salome

Mathilde, I believe, is a femme fatale.

femme fatale

Hats, the "real Julien" is a chameleon, assuming whatever camouflage he thinks will keep him alive in a hostile environment.

I think Julien is just pretending to dislike Rousseau. Before Julien made that scornful statement about Rosusseau, "His lips assumed an expression of disdain that was perhaps slightly exaggerated".

Julien pretends disdain because he wants to impress Mathilde but, more importantly, he's in a ballroom, surrounded by aristocarats and royalists who are scornful of revolutionaries and their sympathizers.

Will someone please tell me how to change the fonts in my posts? I would occasionally like to highlight a word or phrase in a bold, or different font, but the "Change font" drop down menu doesn't work for me. What am I doing wrong?

Road King, aren't we really saying the same thing in a different way? I love your point about the "chameleon."

"On fait les plus grandes cruautés, mais sans cruauté."

In the mid-1990's, I was attending a dance for recycled singles near UCLA, when one of the dancers collapsed clutching his heart. He was quickly pushed to the side of the dance floor to await the paramedics while the dance went merrly on. I gather from Chapter 9, that things were much the same in Beyle's time and place.

It does seem as though Mathilde is going to play a bigger role in the upcoming chapters. Thanks for summing up some thoughts about her in your post #431, Judy. Hats, I agree that she could well be a femme fatale.

Marni asked (post #438), “Will Julien eventually seek to be condemned to death to display his valor?” Great question! I wonder…

Bonjour! Il fait beau, aujourd'hui, mes amis!

The real Julien
Interesting thoughts posted here today! I can't decide if Julien is changing because he is just in from the provinces, experiencing Paris the first time - or if he is finding a voice for the views he brought with him from Verrières. Right now I see the latter - I think.

Road King - thank you for reminding of earlier instances in which Julien reveals the reasons for his interest in entering the clergy. I knew he was in it for the money - but wasn't quite sure that he believed NONE of it - that he was a real disbeliever - until now.

Do you see a change in his plan to become a priest - if things continue to go well with the Marquis? I'm not sure where Stendhal is going with the Marquis "experiment" to turn Julien into a noble. What if it turns out that Julien really is the illegitimate son of a member of the aristocracy? What if the Marquis finds a way to promote him to "baron"?

I've been thinking about this "blue coat" the Marquis wants him to wear. - Is there a significance to the color blue? Napoleon's uniform was a deep blue, remember?

How do you understand Julien's status right now? Is this a temporary assignment as the Marquis' secretary? Is he still expected to return to the seminary, complete his studies and then be ordained as a priest?

hats - a really interesting question - "Have we ever met the real Julien?" I'd like to hear what others think of this. The only thing real I know about him is that he is very sensitive, very proud, very intelligent - and suspects everyone of trying to make fun of him. I don't see the nature-lover in him - in Paris. He doesn't seem to get out much - except to ride horses.

Road King - use this formula - just be sure to close the command when you are finished bolding - /b - or everything after that will remain bold.

 BOLD

Road King

Italics

Road King

Back soon - there's a lot here today!

Zany, you are so drôle! How cruel to push the collapsed dancer to the side so the "recycled singles could continue to dance!"

Mathilde is bored - are you keeping a tally of how many times we are told that MATHILDE IS BORED? She had been enjoying the conversation between the Count Altamira and Julien (she just pushed herself into the conversation, didn't she?) and they showed no interest in her - the belle of the ball. To be fair, Julien told her he'd come back to her - but he didn't! She's seething and her mother tells her that this is not good ball behavior. So she lies, she has a headache, it's hot in the ballroom.

So the poor old Baron Tolly falls over as if to confirm what she is saying. It is that hot. "Mathilde paid no attention. It was one of her traits never to pay attention to old men, or people who spoke on gloomy topics."

hats, you are scaring me with the Salome painting. She is more dangerous than Julien realizes - although Julien is not above using her, is he? Do you and LauraD believe that Mathilde is so bored that she would set up Julien so that he must give up his life to prove himself? You know, I could see him face a death squad to prove his valor and defend his pride.

I see Mathilde not only bored, but also frightened about what lies ahead...a boring marriage to a boring man. A life without pleasure of any kind. "On fait les plus grandes cruautés, mais sans cruauté."
"One makes greatest cruelties, but without cruelty." - Julien tells Altamira that he believes crimes should only be committed with pleasure - that's the only way crime can be justified -
Uh oh- I'm not liking the sound of things either, Laura. But who will be the victim of the "crime" - Mathilde or Julien?

Éloïse-Ive searched high and low for the pictures of Parisian ladies dressed for the ball in the 1820's which you posted a while back. I thought of them while reading of the ball in Chapter 9. Lots of skin - I'm sure Julien noticed - especially those bare arms! I'm remembering too how Julien enjoyed Madame de Rênal's closetful of ball gowns and jewelry. He was really overcome at the sumptuousness of the Duke de Retz's ball!

Did any of you wonder at the fact that Julien when wearing bleu is supposed to be the younger illegitimate son of the Duke de Retz? I guess he's not in that role tonight - it's black tie. And maybe the Duke hasn't heard that rumor yet.

I think Julien learns be imitation how to reach for power. Every step of the way he did everything to polish his image. I don't think he changes at all, he is just learning through hypocrisy the way to the top and he is bound to get hurt along the way, but he is willing to take the risk. Notice how fast he regains his confidence after he looses a battle.

High society knew about Julien's origins, if they didn't, they could not have guessed where he was from by his manners, his conversation and his clothing which were becoming more and more polished. I think Julien provided a diversion for the Marquis De la Mole, and perhaps Mathilde too who thought they could poke fun of him.

Joan, I will try and find the link for ball gowns of that period.

Hi everybody, I am back and will work hard to catch up. I'm more than a little behind with the reading, but by next week I hope to be up with the herd/ posse/ group/ ball-attenders. Grades turned in today. The semester, except for a few minor procedural events, is over. Yay.

Maryal

Bon soir: Thank you, JOAN, for the extra time.
I agree with ÉLOÏSE that Julien is adapting : watching, learning by observation and example, and maturing in the process. But deep down he is still the same man, I believe : impious, ambitious, quick to take offense, easily humiliated, but the same devastating charmer.

It would be interesting to view French fashion for men and women of the era. The Empire style, neoclassicism, developed in the Napoleonic era in architecture; fashion reflected the same trend. Napoleon went into his second exile after 1815 and died in 1821.

We assume that R&B falls into the period from 1824-1830. How strange that the marquis should wear a wig, a blond wig, which Julien thinks has altogether too much hair.

The experiment of the Marquis is, I believe, an attempt to mold a low-born, coarse youth-- whose only blessing is a phenomenal memory combined with an attentive mind -- and make him into a gentleman, by giving him the right clothes, duties and responsibilities, and instructing him on the sly in a gentleman's activities, e.g. riding and dancing At times the Marquis despairs that it will work. It is the Marquis who picks up and feeds the rumor of Julien's 'higher' birth, in an effort to facilitate Julien's acceptance into society.
And what a society it was, bored, decadent, with a monarchy that was dying.

Verrières was Julien's beginning, in the center of his life was Madame who became his first mentor. Madame stood apart as much as Julien did. His friend Fouqué was another loyal mentor.

Paris is the new microcosm for Julien, and at its center is Mathilde. The attraction is slow to develop, just as with Madame in Verrières. Mathilde is not only bored to tears, she is dissatisfied, no wonder for an obviously intelligent woman of the time. Without material worries of any kind, dozens of servants at an instant's command, in the prime of life, she is surrounded by sycophants with nothing better to do than ridicule the people at a soirée.

And along comes Julien with his intense,smoldering look. The secretary-in-training. Not a man of her class. Still, how could she not notice him ?

Wavaing to you, DEEMS. Please join us when your time allows.

Traude,Juliens blessings are not ONLY a great memory and a quick mind. You forget how almost every female that meets him "falls for him". So he must be very good looking or "a darlin' boy" as the Irish say. Never underestimate the advantage of a handsome face and a graceful body. Just remember when you were young and how the girls flocked after a man such as Julien-so off the beaten track, so charming etc.Even "the Queen of the ball" Mathilde is fascinated by him.

The only thing that will ruin such a one is if he gets too confident of himself or if some woman smarter than he trips him up.

Judy

In chapter 9 there are several references to "Danton". In a conversation with Conte Altamira, Julien admiringly declared that Danton "was a man!". Mathilde overheard Julien and wondered if he might be destined to be "another Danton". Apparently she didn't think "horribly ugly" Danton was a good role model for her noble-faced Julien. (When you're grooming a lover to be killed for you, it's essential for him to have a handsome role model!)

Anyway, www.answers.com/George%20Jacques%20Danton has the best info on Danton that I've been able to find.

Hey, it worked! Thanks for the bolding instructions, Joan.

Traude, you are so observant. Here are wonderful examples of La mode Empire du règne Napoléon with a pair of shoes worn by L'Impératrice Joséphine. Click on the first link to see Ackerman's costume plate with dozens of chic dresses. Scroll down to see a real Dandy.

JoanP, I do not understand the importance of wearing the blue suit versus the black suit either.

Traude mentions "the dying of a monarchy." What is it like for the aristocracy at a time like this, after losing power? Does their life become boring rather than exciting? There are still the opulent homes and money. I am not sure what is missing in their lives.

Perhaps, living become difficult when the power to rule is in the hands of the other classes or lower classes. It is, I suppose, boring having money, great fashions, magnificent homes without the power to reform or change the laws of your society. The power to rule is important in any society, I would think. All the other luxuries are fringe benefits.

Eloise and Road King, thank you for the links.

Hats asked, “Have we ever met the real Julien?" I think we, the readers, have met the real Julien because we have been privy to his innermost thoughts and seen him interact with other people in a variety of situations. What I wonder is how many of the other characters in the book have met the real Julien?

I can’t imagine Mathilde setting up Julien such that he would lose his life. I can completely understand her being bored. Gosh, I would go crazy in her position, with little to do physically, no women of her intellectual capacity with which to converse, and little opportunity as a woman in society. I can’t see her setting someone up to be killed though. However, as you said, Joan, I could see Julien face a death squad to prove his valor and defend his pride.

Regarding the blue suit, I thought I read that clerks wore black suits. I think the color blue is significant in that it is not black, but I don’t know that the color blue itself is significant.

Laura D, I think you are right. I don't believe Mathilde would commit murder. I do think she is so bored that only some really drastic action could excite her.

Re "I can’t imagine Mathilde setting up Julien such that he would lose his life."

Oh, I can! I can see that this might be just the thing that could be thrilling to this bored, petulant, spoiled, smart young woman. We already know she admires the man who faces death. If she could arrange such a thing to happen, aahh, that could certainly add excitement to a grand passion.

Marni, I bet you are right. Look at me changing sides. I can't make up my mind. I do know Mathilde is a woman we should take seriously.

It's no wonder the characters in R&B sometimes say and do things that are inexplicable to us readers. Here we are, all reading the same book, but sometimes coming to completely different conclusions about the motives and capabilities of these people.

Case in point, Mathilde. I cannot fail to see, in her admiration of her noble ancestors, especially her namesake, Queen Mathilde, that she wishes to have a lover who will be willing to get himself killed for her, or for some noble cause. She's living in a fantasy world of novels, operas and fancy dress balls. Dying and death are merely romantic notions for her because she has not seen death up close and personal.

But some of you have a more charitable opinion of Mathilde and that makes me unsure of my own assessment of her.

Oh good - Deems is back - and I've heard that Andy has picked up the novel where she left off. It will be interesting to hear of your impressions as you make your comeback! Good to have you both with us again - you've been missed!

It's interesting to read your differing views of Mathilde. She is an enigma, a contradiction to me. Do you find yourself at times viewing her as an early feminist? She thinks for herself, she reads, she doesn't hesitate to enter into conversation with the men - something even the men in her class don't seem to be able to do.

At the same time, she is a beauty - and dresses for attention. Is this her mother's doing, do you suppose? She doesn't seem to get much delight attracting her own group of suitors, though she is wild with disappointment that men like Julien and Count Altamira are more interested in conversation than in dancing or flirting with her.

Éloïse - thank you for the link to the fashions of the day. I was especially interested in the links to 1830, after learning that fashion was changing since Napoleon's day...the Empire waistline has dropped to the waist again, for example.

From the 1830 link, two things caught my eye -

1. Rouge - "Rouge, the most common cosmetic, was used on lips and cheeks." Remember that the epigram for the entire Book II - "She isn't pretty, she wears no rouge." She might be very very beautiful but if she wears no rouge, well, she just isn't a pretty girl. Appearances are everything!

2.the Blue coat - I had thought that maybe the Marquis dressed Julien in blue in connection with Napoleon's military uniform, hats, but noted the dapper gent in the photo - in blue. Appearances again - men of fashion wore the blue coat.

Road King: I'm glad you brought up Mathilde's (Mathilde-Marguerite) namesake who was Marguerite de Valois, daughter of Catherine de Medici and Henry II, wife of Henry IV, first Bourbon king of France. (I'm jumping the gun by one day because of our extension.) Marguerite was also known as Queen Margot.

Marguerite had many lovers. Check out the link below. Truth is more exciting than fiction!! One of her favorite lovers was Joseph Boniface de la Môle! We learn about him and Marguerite in the story Julien was told of the Place de Greve. Boniface de la Mole joined with the Duke d'Alencon to try to help Marguerite escape from prison. They were captured and de la Mole was sent to the scaffold. His head was cut off and Marguerite ordered it sent to her and she had it buried.

Mathilde greatly admired this story of her ancestor. She admired the man who died for love and intrigue and she admired his lover, the queen, who ordered his head and buried it. Ah, how romantic to Mathilde!

Here's the story of Queen Marguerite. You can click on Joseph Boniface de la Mole to find out more about him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_de_Valois

Alexandre Dumas wrote a wonderful novel about Queen Marguerite, her relationship with Henry of Navarre, and her lovers - Queen Margot or Marguerite De Valois.

Joan , I suppose we could view Mathilde "as an early feminist", but she doesn't appear to have women's rights and gender equality on her mind. To use more crude terminology, I see her as a "women's libber". Mathilde wants to be liberated - from boredom!

Hi there, Marni - please forgive me as I try to squeeze in a few more questions about Julien following his conversation with Count Altamira - before considering Mathilde's fascination with Queen Marguerite. (of course, RK, she doesn't fight for women's rights, but she does stand up for what she believes. "Women's libber" - liberated from boredom - love it!

I still need help understanding the point of the Danton conversation and why Julien appears to have new insights following his talk with the Comte.

Traude writes that the Marquis is trying to make Julien into a noble - into a gentleman - by giving him all the outward appearance of a gentleman. WHY is the Marquis doing this? Don't you think he has a reason - other than boredom? Does anyone see the Marquis as LauraD does - as a closet liberal? I'm confused about the Marquis' intent.

Judy reminds us of Julien's good looks. I'm wondering whether Mathilde would give him a second glance if he looked anything like Danton. She throws herself right into the conversation the second she hears the name "Danton"- asking whether or not he was a butcher.

Thank you Road King for bringing us this portrait and information on Danton - whose name is mentioned frequently in the conversation at the ball -

"He was an early defender of popular liberties and the republican spirit."

he was a pragmatist who believed that the Revolution could only succeed if it limited its program to the possible, which meant upholding the rights of property, ending the war as quickly as possible by negotiation, and restoring order through a strong central government.

Following King Louis XVI's unsuccessful flight in June 1791, Danton was among those who called for the creation of a republic.

he was one of the first to espouse the modern conception of the legal equality of all citizens.

he began to play the primary role in the conspiracy that led to the overthrow of the monarchy on Aug. 10, 1792.

He had become convinced, as had others, that as long as the monarchy continued to exist the Revolution would be endangered."

Do you think this is what Mathilde was referring to when she asked if Julien was another Danton? I'm not so sure. Especially when reading what finally became of Danton - from Road King's link -

"...he returned to Paris the following month at the insistence of his friends, who feared Robespierre's terrorist policies. The increasingly radical demands of the Hébertists, however, were more frightening to Danton, and he lent his support to Robespierre. After the Hébertists had been suppressed, Robespierre moved against Danton, who had called for an end to the Terror. Danton and his followers were arrested and tried for antirevolutionary activity. On April 5, 1794, Danton went to the guillotine, which he had vowed to either pull down or die beneath."

Danton went to the guillotine for "anti-revolutionary activity!" He was convicted for fighting for liberty and equality - by his fellow revolutionaries!

Do you see Julien as Danton - in any way? He left this conversation with the Count with the realization that "if you want the end you accept the means." I'm not sure what Julien has in mind here - it sounds ominous Has he changed? I don't understand what is on his mind - but I do see danger for him on every side. Who are his friends?

Marni - off to read the story of Marguerite de Valois. Julien seems to appreciate Mathilde's form-fitting mourning dress, though he doesn't yet know the reason she is in mourning...

Most of you know this stuff already but, if there may be other members of the group who, like me, would like a tutorial on how to do some "tricks" in their message posts, I've just discovered this "Discussion Posting Tips" section in SeniorNet.

http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=6130#f

JOAN, I do not believe the Marquis would ever be a Liberal.

The Liberals were Republicans and the Royalist, especially the extreme Ultras, were for the monarchy and supported Charles X in his attempt to return to the "ancien régime" of absolute power the Bourbons had had since Louis XIII.

(More must be said to explain how Napoleon, an ardent Republican, managed to transform himself into a Monarch and had himself crowned Emperor (not just King!) of France by the Pope, beginning his own dynasty. There's a tragedy to be told, involving his only won.)

When Julien wears his black suit, the Marquis treats him like the secretary Julien is, but when Julien wears his blue suit, he is treated totally differently.

ÉLOÏSE, thank you for the great link to Fashion through the centuries. Most interesting.

Traude, all of your information is very interesting. I am looking forward to the next installment about Napoleon changing from a Republican to a Monarchist.

Road King, thank you for your link. I know there are lots of posting tips unknown by me.

Is it possible that the Marquis knows Julien is a pretender, sees the side of Julien that hates and laughs at the upper class of society? To get back at Julien, to punish him in a gentlemanly way, the Marquis makes him act the part of the very people he laughs at on the inside.

Mathilde compares herself to Mme. de Stael. I have seen this name in other literature. I know nothing about this woman. Still, I have the feeling she is very important. I would like to know more about her. She surely impressed Mathilde.

"I do have the asset Mme de Stael would have sacrificed everything for, and yet it's a fact that I'm dying of boredom."

Mme de Stael:1766-1817, French writer. She had an influential salon in Paris at the beginning of the Revolution, but was later forced into exile by Napoleon. She held progressive views on politics and on the position of women in society.

Now I wonder, how did Napoleon feel about women? Did he feel women deserved the same equality as men?

Hats, I am sure that Napoleon didn't even understand the concept of women's equality with men. He loved Josephine, divorced her because he wanted an heir. In the end, he was enamored with the pomp and luxury that the Monarchy used to have and he became just like them, but the people didn't want that after the revolution, they wanted freedom from that tyranny.

Mathilde is bored because she HAS to use her charms and beauty to get what she wants in life, otherwise she would fall into the same mold as women existing only through their husband's career. She would love to have Julien but her high birth forbids her this caprice. Marrying Julien would pronounce her sentence of lowering her to his level, that she didn't want.

When I read Mathile's words, they seem to come from a much older woman. She is only 19 after all, even if she reads all the books in her father's library, there is no way she would have the savvy Stendhal seems to give her. She reminds me of young Scarlett O'Hara, just flirting with one beau after the other. She recites all the honors that men can receive, "a title can be bought, a cross can be given, a military grade can be deserved. Finally, a death sentence is still the only thing that nobody solicits." So a death sentence is what she admires the most in a man. She would be thrilled of having a man die because of her?

She is a spoilt brat.

Traude, "L'habit ne fait pas le moine" my mother used to say. It's not what you wear that reveals who you are, but sometimes it is exactly that. That way the clothes say more about a person than all those hypocritical ready made sentences we have to say in society, just to be polite.

Bonjour, mes amis!

Today is the day, April 30, that Julien begins to take notice of the young lady...and her boredom comes to an end - at least temporarily. One think that I like about the budding relationship - Julien is wearing the black coat - and he is able to speak frankly to her. Have we seen him so open with anyone else? He never revealed his inner thoughts to Madame de Rênal this way, did he?

"L'habit ne fait pas le moine." Literally, "The habit doesn't make the monk." Éloïse, I love that! Here, his black coat doesn't make Julien a religious man - and I get the feeling he will communicate this to Mathilde, if he hasn't already done so on their evening strolls.

I'm still not clear about the expectations for his future - is Julien still on track for the priesthood? It seems that de la Mole wants to keep him on as his secretary indefinitely. Or not? Maybe the "blue coat" experiment indicates the Marquis has different plan for his future?

hats - I had not considered that the Marquis is punishing Julien's ridicule of high society by dressing him to act the part of the people he mocks. Perhaps the "experiment" is to change his attitudes, make him more sympathetic to the conservative position by gradually accustoming him to the role. I'd love to hear what the rest of you think of the Marquis and his experiment.

Traudee, in an earlier post - #452, LauraD surmised-

"that the Marquis is one of the people becoming more liberal. That is why he is experimenting with Julien and class - revising his political views like so many other people seemed to do."

After learning more about his ancestor, Boniface de la Mole in this chapter from the link Marni provided, I don't think it would be at all strange if it turns out that the Marquis doesn't admire him as does Mathilde!

It isn't any wonder that once they begin to talk, to really talk to one another, Julien and Mathilde find they have much in common - having read many of the same books - I specifically remember the champion of free speech, Voltaire - and Rousseau (Mathilde had read his "Social Contract"). Éloïse reminds us that she has read all the books in her father's library too.

-hats - thank you for finding information on Madame de Stael. (" She held progressive views on politics and on the position of women in society.)

Mathilde has learned a lot from her reading, hasn't she? You think she is too savvy, El? She's also read so many books her parents would be appalled to if they knew. We have to remind herself that she is only 19. The world outside of her social circle is so much more interesting to her. Now, at last she has someone to talk to. Til now she has read all of these books in secret.

hats> - this morning you wondered how Napoleon felt about women - if he felt they deserved the same equality as men. I searched around and found some facts that might be of interest here.

- "Napoléon said that "my fame in the eyes of posterity will rest even more on the Code which bears my name than all the victories I won."

- "Napoléon's contribution to its drafting should not be underestimated."

- "Napoleon was assisted in his task by Rousseau. Rousseau's insistence that women were vastly inferior to men guaranteed that women would be disappointed in the Code. It should be remembered that Napoléon had some interesting views on the subject himself."

- "The Code led to an increase in women's rights but fell well short of the grand social ideals of liberty, equality, fraternity.

- "A woman's liberty could be removed by her husband for adultery where he could escape all legal censure."

- "Equality could never be achieved while she did not share full rights of citizenship and property."

I was surprised to learn Rousseau's view that women were inferior. I wonder how Mathilde took that when she read his "Social Contract." I also wonder why Napoleon didn't override Rousseau. I suppose he wanted to incorporate his views when drawing up the Code. To sum it up, Napoleon's code granted women rights of education and property, but not the vote. The Code Napoleon

JoanP, thank you for all the research.

You're welcome, hats - it was fun! My cupboard is bare, my house a mess, but I had a fun morning!

Thanks for the super links, Marni - It is interesting to know the "virtues" of Mathilde's role model - Queen Marguerite -

The beautiful and strong-minded Marguerite was promiscuous throughout her life, and took many extra-marital lovers during her marriage, and many during her lifetime after divorcing. Most notably, Joseph Boniface de La Môle (c. 1526-April 30, 1574)...

He was the Provençal lover of Marguerite de Valois (and many other women), during the early part of her marriage to Henri of Navarre, the future Henry IV of France.

Traudee - if Marguerite de Valois could marry her provençal lover, Boniface de la Mole...can't you see Mathilde dreaming of the same for herself?

I'm not sure marriage is on either of their minds at this point - at least not Julien's. In fact, Julien is quite cavalier about a liaison with the girl. If he can make her fall in love with him, he'll seduce her - and then leave. Really? Has he thought things through? Where would he go?

I really am quite amazed at the insights and analysis on display in these posts. I'm enjoying the discussion of the book as much as the book itelf! But today I'm taking a break from the nutty Mathilde.

Leave the stuffy drawing rooms and come outside with me to look at the various modes of transportation in early 19th century, pre-smog France.

http://www.elfinspell.com/BergerCars.html

Ah, fresh air! But wait - what's that smell, and what are those steaming, brown piles in the street?

It would appear that before Paris became "The City of Lights" it must have been The City of Flies.

During the years preceding our story , i.e. the Napoleonic years and the years of the French Revolution ,France was seething with too much activity. Intrigue was the name of the game. I was not familiar with many of the names mentioned in the book or had a far off memory of them from H.S. History class. I looked up some of them and tried to simplify what I read so as not to bore the French masters and mistresses among us.

Charlotte Corday asassinated Jean Marat, a man who believed in redistributing wealth and a dictatorship of the poor. She believed that in killing Marat she was saving the Revolution.

Robespierres idea of virtue was devotion to the revolution and those volunteering their lives by joining the military. He thought in absolutes (black and white) but was uninterested in money and therefore thought to be incorruptible (among many who were corruptible).

Danton wanted to stop further massacres (1793) and was having second thoughts about the war. Robespierre, fearing that Danton might take the assembly from him had Danton and his friends arrested and had false charges brought against them. He made sure they were executed by the guillotine, in public, on April 5th.

The following year ,1794, Robespierre had become so radical that he was removed from power. In an exchange of gunfire he was shot in the jaw. His speaking days were over.

After all this excitement , we find that 35 years later, Mathilde is dying of ennui. Heroics are a thing of the past and she is looking to recreate some of it in her love life. Woman had little scope for adventure in those days , so Julien will be her adventure and her heroics. I certainly hope she does better than Danton. However some instinct says she will become another victim( but not without a heroic struggle).

Judy

1. Were you surprised to learn that "Queen" Mathilde rules the house? Where does she get such power?

Mathilde is extremely beautiful, graceful, intelligent, spoiled, haughty, fashionable and witty plus the daughter of a wealthy powerful marquis - "the most envied heiress of the Faubourg Saint-Germain." She knows how to wrap people around her finger. What a perfect wife she would make for a noble such as the handsome, rich, debonair, young Couisenois. Mathilde's assets, self-confidence and prospects have given her power. Most particularly, she is queen of the witty but cutting epigram which she uses often in her ennui with devastating effect. Her friends and associates find this most amusing.

Sometimes, she points her remarks directly towards Couisenois whom even Julien admires greatly. It's amazing that C. puts up with it. I guess her beauty and charm and position make it worthwhile for him to withstand the embarrassment.

Marni, thank you very much for the link of information about Queen Marguerite. Also, thank you Road King for a way out of the stuffy drawing rooms and to the streets. There are so many different modes of transportation. I recognize some of the types of transportation from old movies. Judy, thank you also for posting about so many famous names. It is hard to keep up with all the famous names and politics of the people we are meeting in Stendahl's book.

I like the words at the top of chapter 11.

"I admire her beauty, but I live in fear of
her mind." Merimee

I also find it interesting that Mathilde, wearing her mourning dress, is more in touch and excited about France's past history, April 30th, 1574, than her brother.

"Mathilde despises her brother because, as you can see, he never spares a single thought for all this ancient history, and never wears mourning on the 30th of April."

Marni, you have already told the story about Queen Marguerite of Navarre. Both of your posts about this Queen are very interesting.

As early as age twelve, Mathilde is fascinated with heroes and heroines of French history. I think she wears her mourning dress on the 30th of April because of the heroics of Queen Marguerite of Navarre.

She "hid in a house on the Place de Greve and had the courage to send someone to the executioner to request the head of her lover. And at midnight on the following evening she took this head in her carriage, and went off to bury it herself in a chapel at the foot of Montmartre."

Road King and Marni, I see why you were eager to move on to Chapter 10! Very interesting developments! While I still don’t think Mathilde would want Julien to die, I do understand better where you are coming from in your post #475, Marni, and your post #477, Road King. Hats, I can understand your indecision too!

Thanks to everyone for the background information.

I continue to think this is a book filled with contrasts.

I noticed early in Chapter 10 that Julien is contrasting Madame de Renal and Verrieres with Mathilde and Paris:

Julien thinks about Mathilde: “Later on her haughty disdain will manage to revenge herself. I defy her to do her worst. What a contrast with what I have lost!”

Julien thinks about the Paris salon: “Great God, what a contrast and what do I find here? Arid, haughty vanity: all the fine shades of wounded egotism and nothing more.”

Also, about midway through Chapter 10, I noticed that Mathilde is presenting two contrasting opinions to others:

“Her opinions in the gardens were very different to those which she owned to in the salon.”

Bonjour mes amis - a lovely day to be out and about with Road King - provided one is riding in a carriage rather than à pied. Is no one tending to the streets of Paris these days?

RK, I'll agree with you - the insights to the many references brought to this discussion are putting us on an equal footing with Stendhal's readers, I believe. Thank you for the latest update on the revolutionary characters, Judy. Posts like yours make the the references understandable.

So, Road King has left the hôtel de la Mole to avoid "nutty Mathilde"- you boys stick together, don't you?

I suppose you see nothing "nutty" or reprehensible in the young man playing the dual role of abbé/nobleman - "whose heart throbs with ambition?"

"Does she love me?" he asks. If so, I'll have her, then I'll leave her, and woe to the man who gets in my way." Where on earth will he go? Does he still plan to pursue the clerical path? Does he have any other option? Is he "nutty" as well?

Meanwhile, "nutty Mathilde" - is considering a future with Julien - she thinks she loves him. I think she's in love with love - with the idea of a grand passion. (Do we all agree, an affair with Julien would be her "first"?)

Judy, I fear for her too, but don't really see her as a "victim." She appears ready to throw caution to the wind - delights in the "black uncertainty of the outcome." That's dangerous.

What does she risk? Marni, notice that M. Croisenois, leading contender for her hand, thinks she's daft, but can overlook that fact because of her father's wealth and position. Would he overlook a fling with Julien if it came to that?

Does anyone here believe that Mathilde has marriage to Julien in mind - or just one grand affair? Has her reading led her to believe an unconventional - notorious romance is possible?

ps. Road King - I'm still considering your suggestion that Mathilde just might be "nutty"- as in not quite right in the head.

LauraD - I love that you are bringing these contrasts to our attention! Please don't stop!

Julien will probably compare all future loves to his "first" - I smiled when he remembered Madame de Rênal's look of love and wondered whether Mathilde's cold stares - with malice even - could possibly be love.

I'm smiling too at the contrast Julien finds in the Paris salon - don't you think that "haughty vanity: all the fine shades of wounded egotism" describe Julien himself? Maybe he's learning something about himself as he criticizes others.

I wish I could see a future beyond the present for Julien - and for Mathilde. Right now I fear an affair would do them both in.

I am in chapter 10 Book I. In the 9th chapter my feeling was that Julien lives in the fear to be humiliated. That's he looks shy. But in chapter 10 he is more courageous. He coach himself to obtain what he desires and he does without a word. Will he have an "affair" with Mme De Rênal? Maybe. It seems to be the beginning of a "liaison".

Mademoiselle de la Mole, “her eyes aflame with intellect and enthusiasm,” told Julien that she loved “the heroic age of France,” those bygone days of her ancestors.

Julien, having been clued in on Mademoiselle’s "mania" by the Academician, astutely observed that her hero in that “heroic age” was Boniface de La Mole. That estimable young man had bedded Queen Marguerite of Navarre, the wife of his good friend, the King of Navarre, later Henri IV.

Boniface was beheaded after an ill-conceived attempt to liberate some political prisoners. Mademoiselle de La Mole’s namesake, Queen Marguerite, then lovingly carried her decapitated lover's head and buried it at the bottom of Montmartre (Mountain of Martyrs).

Boniface de La Mole’s head rests near the site of another famous person’s execution and burial. The Patron Saint of France and reputed first Bishop of Paris, Saint Denis, was beheaded and buried on Montmortre.

Read all about it at http://www.paris.org/Kiosque/nov96/denis.html

Can you guess where Stendhal was buried?

Road King: Interesting info about Montmartre!

JoanP: I loved your remark about Mathilde being in love with love in her search for a grand passion.

I don't think M. Croisenois would overlook a fling with Julien. We saw how angry he and Marthilde's brother became when she inadvertently talked in an animated way about Julien. An affair would be over the top. Her reputation would be on the line. I think any affair between Julien and Mathilde would be considered extremely shocking, particularly because of Julien's social class.

I love the dance now going on between Julien and Mathilde, especially the effects of the cold glances. So many cold glances. The cold glances are really quite hot! It reminds me of the affair between Julien and Madam de Renal and the military advance that Julien carried out on her hand. Will we find Julien seeking to hold Mathilde's hand? And more?

Re Mathilde wearing mourning on April 30 - I looked up April 30, 1574 to find out what happened in France. It was the day Charles IX, 23-year old king of France, died after a long lingering death by TB. He was the oldest son of Catherine de Medici and brother to Marguerite de Valois. Charles IX was apparently blamed by some for the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. For more about the massacre:

http://www.bartleby.com/65/st/StBartho.html

Marni and Road King, thank you for the links. The links are always helpful.

Madame Pompadour - We're relieved to have you tune in to let us know where you are. (Now where are Maryal and others who are trying to catch up with us? I worry about them getting bogged down in historical detail.)

I hope you are reading the posts along the novel. About a month ageo we were discussion Chapter 10 in Book I. You'll find those post begin here with one from Éloïse here in post 154. There is much good information that should help you!

Good for you, MadameP! We've got all the lights on in the hôtel for you!

Marni, Charles IX died on April 30, 1574 but in the link that You provided to us last week - someone ELSE died on that date - someone probably less famous than the king, but to the de la Moles, he'd be remembered on this date - !

Joseph Boniface de La Môle - (c. 1526-April 30, 1574) was a Protestant nobleman.

He was the Provençal lover of Marguerite de Valois (and many other women), during the early part of her marriage to Henri of Navarre, the future Henry IV of France.

He was implicated in plots with François and Henri, which due to Catherine de' Medici's hatred of him, led to him being tortured and beheaded in 1574, along with his friend Count Annibal de Coconas.

Oh, my, are you thinking what I'm thinking, Road King? RK posts -

"Boniface de La Mole. That estimable young man had bedded Queen Marguerite of Navarre, the wife of his good friend, the King of Navarre, later Henri IV.

Boniface was beheaded after an ill-conceived attempt to liberate some political prisoners. Mademoiselle de La Mole’s namesake, Queen Marguerite, then lovingly carried her decapitated lover's head and buried it at the bottom of Montmartre (Mountain of Martyrs)."

You will note that Queen Marguerite came through the affair with her head intact. If there is a parallel here between the Queen and M. Boniface de la Mole AND Mathilde and Julien - our boy is in more trouble than realizes!

Road King - I see from the link you provided that Napoleon himself considered being buried in Montmartre Cimetière - so I'll guess that is where Stendhal is buried too?

I agree, hats - these links are an enormous help!

As I recall Henri of Navarre was a protestant as were those "political prisoners" La Mole's ancestors saught to liberate. Were the La Moles protestant? Was Beyle?

Road King-In answer to your question: Stendhal was buried in Italy. I think Milan but not 100% sure. He loved the atmosphere in Italy and the Art.He always said that his happiest days were spent in Italy.

I don"t think Mathilde is "nutty". Just a gal who has been given brains and beauty by genes and wealth and position by her parents. Such a heady combination that one might wonder if a mistake or a failing step was not in order to keep up the drama. When you say "How the mighty have fallen " it has a certain ring. If you said "how have the lowly (or the mediocre) have fallen", no one would care.

Judy

In chapter 10: Julien "gathered from a little maid of Mademoiselle de La Mole, who was making love to him, as Elisa had done in the past, that her mistress's mourning was by no means put on to attract attention".

Since the maids of both Madame de Renal and Mademoiselle de La Mole had made love to Julien, I don't know what to make of question #2 in chapter 10's FYC. "What do you think of Julien's plan to seduce the maid if she were to fall in love with him?"

Stendhal loved Italy and especially Milan but,according to the biographical timeline on this website, he died in Paris and was buried at Montmartre.

http://www.stendhalforever.com/biotwo.html

"1841 – Stendhal experiences an apoplectic fit on March 15 and as his health fails he is granted leave and leaves Civitavecchia for Paris on October 21.

"1842 – On March 22, Stendhal has another apoplectic attack in the street and is taken to his apartment, at 78, rue Neuve des Capucines. At two in the morning of March 23 Stendhal dies.

"He is buried at Montmatre."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimeti%C3%A8re_de_Montmartre also informs us that Stendhal was buried at Montmartre.

Yikes! Road King - the maid in the Question was meant to refer to Mathilde. (It's fixed now.) First I was going to say "virgin" but changed to "maid" at the last minute. Mathilde was most likely was virginal, was she not?

Yikes again - It never occurred to me that Julien was sleeping with either one of the housemaids! Will you try to find where it says that in your text? Which translation are you reading? Such behaviour would present a totally different image of Julien that I have in my mind!

Zany - you might be interested in this site The Novel 100: A Ranking of the Greatest Novels of All Time - if you scroll down you can see the religious affiliation of these top authors. Stendhal is listed as Catholic, but he seems to be a Catholic like Julien.

ps. Stendhal's apoplectic attack reminded me of the man at the ball who had a similar attack - and everyone kept dancing. I wonder if anyone paused in the street when Stendhal himself had his attack!

According to biographical information in my translation of the novel, Sendhal identified instantly with Italy, "the land where the oranges blossom", when he was first there in northern Italy during Napoleon's Italian Campaign.

He later served as French Cosul in other Italian cities, his last post was Civitavecchia, some 100 miles from Rome, a port on the Thyrrenean Sea. He suffered from gout and "fits of giddiness", which may have been what we now call 'vertigo'. In 1841 he had a light stroke and asked to be recalled to Paris. On March 15 he had a second stroke and a third one, this time fatal, on March 23.

As for Julien's relationship with Elisa, Madame's maid, I don't think there was one. She was infatuated with him, she wanted to marry him, but he remained aloof as he had been also with the other young maidens in Verrières. However, there is reason to believe that Elisa may well have had a relationship with Valenod.

MARNI, thank you for the link to St. Bartholomew's Night and the massacre of thousands of French Calvinists or Huguenots on August 22 1572.
Twenty-six years later King Henry IV of France signed the Edict of Nantes on April 30, 1598.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Nantes

Joan , I'm reading Moncrieff's translation, published 1926 by The Modern Library. About midway through chapter 10 - soon after the Academician told Julien that Mademoiselle de La Mole had been wearing a mourning dress because of her obsession with the Boniface de la Mole episode - there is this paragraph.

"One day Julien had caught him (the Academician) on his knees before the Marquise de La Mole; he was begging her for a tobacco licence for a nephew in the country. That night, he gathered from a little maid of Mademoiselle de La Mole, who was making love to him, as Elisa had done in the past, that her mistress's mourning was by no means put on to attract attention . This eccentricity was an intimate part of her nature. She really loved this La Mole, the favoured lover of the most brilliant Queen of her age, who had died for having sought to set his friends at liberty. And what friends! The First Prince of the Blood and Henri IV."

How does this passage read in your translation, Joan.

Eloise, can you give us the English translation of that sentence from the French text you are reading?

I don't think we have to interpret "making love to him" as actually going to bed with him. It could mean that she was flirting with him.

Traude: Thanks for the Edict of Nantes info. I just love reading about Henri IV. What a great king and what an interesting life.

Interesting that Boniface de la Mole and Charles IX died on exactly the same day. But, of course, it was for de la Mole that Mathilde wore the mourning clothes. I had forgotten that was the date of his death. doink!

Re Chpt 12 - 'Beware of that young man, who has so much energy,' her brother cried; 'if the Revolution begins again, he will have us all guillotined.'

Norbert was certainly right about Julien's energy. He was no longer simply the marquis' secretary - not by a long shot. He was overseeing a lot of his businesses and was becoming invaluable. His rapidly growing importance to the marquis surely would have been noticed by many and had definitely been noticed by the marquis' son. He may have already been seen as a threat, a threat that had nothing to do with being Mathilde's lover.

How does her brother's warning affect Mathilde?

Mathilde doid not answer to her brother's remark, but just teased Norbert and Croisenois that Julien's energy frightened them, to turn them away from her praises of Julien. However, she was actually horrified by Norbert's remark. But then after sleeping on it, she decided the remark was high praise of Julien and she wanted to see what his reaction to the remark would be.

I think Norbert was implying (sarcastically, Mathilde thought?) that Julien was an energetic revolutionary, anti-aristocracy, and his energies could be focused to bring about another revolution and terror. Mathilde starts to imagine how romantic this would be. "My little Julien would blow out the brains of the Jacobin who came to arrest him, if he had the slightest hope of escaping......They prove, in spite of themselves, that he is the most distinguished man that we have seen this winter. What do his faults, his absurdities matter? He has greatness, and they are shocked by it..."

This adds to her romantic vision of Julien dying for love of her or for a cause.

Could he be another Danton? I can see him dreaming fervently about bringing about the downfall of hated aristocrats who treat him with contempt. But I see Julien dreaming more of being a great military leader like Napoleon rather than a politician. And Julien may be learning quickly, but he is not a sophisticated political type. He is still a country boy.

About "making love" my book says:

"Un jour, Julien l'avait surpris aux genoux de la marquise de La Mole; il lui demandait une recette de tabac pour un neveu de province. Un soir, une petite femme de chambre de Mlle de La Mole qui faisait la cour à Julien, comme jadis Elisa, lui donna cette idée que le deuil de sa maitresse n'était pas pour attirer les regards."

One day Julien had surprised him at the knees of the Marquise de La Mole; he was asking her for a tobacco recipe for a nephew living in the country. One night, a little maid of Mlle de La Mole who was courting Julien, as before Elisa, gave him the idea that her mistress's mourning was not meant to attract attention. (My translation)

I wonder how other translators translated this because it certainly gives a different slant to the story. Like Joan, I was under the impression that he did not have sexual relations with either of the maids.

Marni, yes Julien for all his wit and fine clothing could never completely erase his "country boy" persona. Once a peasant, always a peasant, do you agree?

I don’t think Julien is having an affair with any of the maids. I am reading the Barnes and Noble edition. It states the passage as follows:

“In the evening a little chamber maid of Mademoiselle de la Mole, who was paying court to Julien, just as Elisa had used to do, gave him to understand that her mistress’s mourning was very far from being worn simply to attract attention.”

Those Yalies unfamiliar with Henri Navarre and the slaughter of the innocents which event along with the British Civil Wars was to so profoundly influence the drafters of the US constitution might also wish to view "Intolerance," the Griffith masterpiece. Or, if like me, they are admirers of Dominique LeBlanc,then La Reigne Margot will do.

Can one imagine John Travolta in a priest's robes? Or so I now view Julien along with Olivia Newton John as Matilde.

Thank you, Éloïse , for your translation of the disputed sentence about the maids. Tergie's translation agrees with you. He translated the suspect sentence as follows: "In the evening Mademoiselle de la Mole's maid, who was paying attention to Julien just as Elisa had formerly done . . ."

Do you think Moncrieff made an unwarranted assumtion; he presumed that Stendhal's delicate phrasing really meant something much more explicit and earthy?

Our discussion is made difficult because we're not all reading this book in the original French or in the same English translation. That may explain why we sometimes come to such different interpretations and conclusions.

It would be helpful to have a three-column, parallel translation; French - Moncrieff - Tergie. I think there is at least one more modern translation, too.

Road King, even here: "In the evening Mademoiselle de la Mole's maid, who was paying attention to Julien just as Elisa had formerly done" "paying attention" is not the same as "paying court" and if I am allowed to say, in French "faire la cour à..." means openly flirting with someone. Some things are just not translatable or Mr Moncrieff did not know the subtility of the expression, or perhaps the expression 'making love' didn't have the same meaning when he translated it as it has today. The English language is constantly in flux. I usually just skip over these things unless it radically changes a meaning which in this case, it does change it. Thank you for bringing this out.

Borges wrote about a 20th Century Frenchman who chose to rewrite (not translate) Don Quixote. The latter's version was word for word identical with Cervante's original but,as Borges notes, conveyed completely different meanings. For whatever "necessity is the mother of invention" might have meant to Cervantes, today we view "necessity" in the light of both the Industrial Revolution and Marxism while "mother" has a richer Freudian complexity. As far as sex goes, Dr Laura may speak of "doing her," but to understand Beyle we need someone who can translate from early 19th Century French (and the euphemisms then in use) to contemporary English (acceptable on this website).

Haven't given up on the book but have skipped ahead to Book 2. Will anything make Julien happy? There is no joy in his life -- always looking with suspicion on everything offered to him. Now Mathilde bring a breath of fresh air.

Oh isn't this a grand surprise - kidsal is back!!! You were missed, chérie! That's a good idea, skipping ahead to Book 2 - but be sure to read the last chapter in Book I. Julien leaves Verrières with a bang!

What a question - will anything make Julien happy? I can't think of a happy ending for him, can you? Like Marni I see Julien "a great military leader like Napoleon rather than a politician." To die in Napoleon's army might have satisfied him.

Not sure what Mathilde's game is. She's bored, she'd like to see him die for her. I fear he might. Not sure how much of a breath of fresh air she will be for him.

Marni - what do you suppose the Marquis' interest in Julien might be? Is he grooming him to become the man he wishes his son had been? Is he grooming him for his daughter to marry maybe? Is there another office where Julien can serve him? But is this what Julien wants from life?

Mathilde's brother thinks that Julien will lead them all to the guillotine. Why would he think this? Is Julien showing signs of a revolutionary? Is it because he spends time talking to the likes of Count Altamira in public?

You see her horrified at his remark. I went back to reread that passage - and find her real fear was "the fear of the unexpected." Well, good! It's about time. That's a positive sign. She's playing with fire in her flirtation with Julien, don't you think? Where can such a relationship go? Wouldn't it ruin her chances of marriage? She doesn't seem to care, but if she really fears the unexpected, she should be afraid of "life after Julien."

The Marquis made a puzzling comment in this same chapter.
"Nothing is ridiculous in a country where there are two parties."
What did he mean by that? The Norton Critical edition has a footnote about this comment -

"M. de la Mole's dictum seems to imply that where politics is a contest of popularity, with public opinion as the arbiter, absurdity is no drawback to an idea."

"...Comedy has been impossible since the Revolution because there are now two publics, one crude, the other clever."

I guess I don't understand what the Marquis meant when he said that - nor do I understand the translator, Robert Adam's interpretation of the remark. Do you? I know I'll file away the Marquis' comments on a two-party system though.

I just noticed on the web that a film was made in 1997 of The Red and the Black. Look at who plays Julien. Ooh la la!

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7001728

Éloïse, thank you so much to for bringing us Stendhal's original French version of Julien's relationship with the little bonnes. And all of you who shared your version from the translation you are reading.

Road King, I understand what you are saying about the confusion in reading the different translations - but feel differently than you do. Rather than conclude that our discussion is made difficult because we are not all reading the same book - I feel it is a plus and makes for a richer experience. Of course it is great to have some reading the original French, but most of us are reading the different translations and would never know the differences if we weren't participating in this discussion. It's much the same as having all of the translations open side by side, don't you think?

The most modern translation is Burton Raffel's. Does anyone have that one to check on the passage in Chapter 10? I've got the Norton Critical edition translated by Robert Adams which reads -

"That evening a little maid of Mlle. de La Mole's, who was making advances to Julien as Elisa had done before, reassured him that her mistress'mourning was by no means a trick for attracting attention."

You're right - Julien just doesn't fit the role of the guy in the black suit. Nor can I see him in the role of the diplomat in the blue coat, daintily helping himself to another flavored ice. Can you see John T in a military uniform though? A swashbuckler?

I don't think we're going to find a translator who understands the euphemisms of the 19th century, Zany. I don't think all the translators (other than Montcrieff) felt restricted. I wish we could hear what Burton Raffel has to say. I remember his translation of Don Quixote drove me crazy because of his contemporary translation.

Oops, sorry, JoanP, I got sidetracked!

Oh, yes...."what do you suppose the Marquis' interest in Julien might be?"

I don't have a clue. I think it's the oddest thing. The marquis seems to be very sharp. He certainly sees something in Julien. He seems to be creating an experiment. Kind of like a Frankenstein in a way. Maybe he wants to see how far he can take this experiment? It must be quite fascinating for the marquis.

And it is a great game for the marquis, too - the whole blue suit business. It kind of reminds me of a man having a sexual fantasy - like having a woman dress up in a maid's costume. I'm not saying, by any means, that this is a sexual game for the marquis, but he certainly derives pleasure from it.

"That evening a little maid of Mlle. de La Mole's, who was making advances to Julien as Elisa had done before, reassured him that her mistress'mourning was by no means a trick for attracting attention."

Moncrieff was the only one who saw more - Road King asks - do you think that "Stendhal's delicate phrasing really meant something much more explicit and earthy?" Stendhal would have had censors, no doubt. He may have meant what Moncrieff believes he meant, but I don't think Julien would have lowered himself from his lofty goals to mess with the housemaids and risk all - do you?

I don't think we're going to find a translator who understands the euphemisms of the 19th century, Zany. I don't think all the translators (other than Montcrieff) felt restricted. I wish we could hear what Burton Raffel has to say. I remember his translation of Don Quixote drove me crazy because of his contemporary translation.

Zany - you are so funny! Earlier my husband and I saw a coming attraction for "Hairspray" with John Travolta. I burst out laughing at the thought of him in the role of Julien Sorel, hair slicked back as in Grease.

You're right - Julien just doesn't fit the role of the guy in the black suit. Nor can I see him in the role of the diplomat in the blue coat, daintily helping himself to another flavored ice. Can you see John T in a military uniform though? A swashbuckler?

Oh, Marni - I just now see your link! Ooh la la is right! (Though John Travolta made me laugh harder) - I looked up the actor - Kim Rossi Stuart -

Marni, isn't it strange we never see de la Môle around at the meal table, the garden, the library. He always sees Julien alone in his office. He doesn't seem to be observing how Norbert and Mathilde interact with him. I can only gather he doesn't care. He also seems to have very little to do with Mme. de la Môle. Maybe it is something sexual. We'll have to see what Moncrieff has to say about this ...

How closely does Mathilde match Julien's mountaintop vision of the woman he would one day find in Paris? In Book 1, chapter 12, Julien found himself in a small cave in the mountains as he travelled to visit his friend, Fouqué. His romantic nature was stimulated by the beauty and solitude he found on the mountain.

". . . his soul wandered in contemplation of what he imagined that he would one day find in Paris. This was first and foremost a woman far more beautiful and of a far higher intelligence than any it had been his lot to see in the country . He loved with passion, he was loved in return. If he tore himself from her for a few moments, it was to cover himself with glory and earn the right to be loved more warmly still ." . . .

Julien's love for Madame de Rênal (thirty years old but still quite pretty) was not sufficient to prevent him from already imagining a lover more beautiful and intelligent than her. And, he aspired to enhance that future love affair by somehow covering himself with glory.

Now in Paris, has he found the girl of his dreams? I think so.

Will Julien cover himself with glory? Not likely. He is endlessly introspective, he constantly second-guesses himself and he is unable to defy the oppressive demands of Paris society. Unless he begins, finally, to lead an authentic life of his own, I do not see in him the stuff of heroes.

Marni, I am soooo excited. A movie??? Thank you. I can't wait to watch it after finishing the book. JoanP, thanks for the movie poster.

I am surprised that I never saw the movie. I recognize Carole Bouquet in the big black hat, she used to be a Chanel model. I must look for it here. I can see her in the role of Mathilde.

I would have cast James Dean in the role of Julien. Was he good-looking enough, ladies? He was a risk-taker, but had an aura of vulnerability that might have worked well in the role.

Deborah Kerr for Madame de Rênal. Madonna for Mademoiselle de La Mole. Claude Raines (sp?) for the Marquis de La Mole. I would like to play the part of the Curé Chélan, please.

My French text has two pictures from two movies, one showing a broodingly handsome Julien, Madame looking at him adoringly from under a parasol, and her heavy-set husband.
Only Madame is identified, she is played by Carole Bouquet. Same film, MARNI ?

The other is from Claude Autan-Lara's 1954 adaptaton with Gérard Philippe as Julien and Danielle Darrieux. Though not identified aas such, I am inclined to think that she played Madame.
He is sitting at a table outside with papers im front of him, she is standing in front of him looking sad and grave, her arms hanging down helplessly, the left hand showing what could be wedding ring.

I don't have the time to check this out now because I have to runn errands but first go vote in today's town election.
In haste.

Just checked. Danielle Darrieux played Madame in the 1954 film, whle Mathide was portrayed by Anatella Lualdi.

James Dean as Julien? Brooding enough, handsome enough - but someone men would find attractive. We need a pretty boy like Kim Rossi Stuart - in the 1997 DVD version.

But Road King - as Abbé Chélan? Hahaha, you just want to hear all those maidens confess their affairs! Is there another reason?

Thank you all for the information on the film version - the 1997 DVD is widely available and I definitely will put it on my list to see after we finish the novel. I wonder if Netflix has it...

Still can't get the image of John Travolta in the role of Julien out of my mind, Zany.

It would have to be a musical, I think!

Road King, I see Julien's same inability to judge character. As you say, he second-guesses himself all the time. I see ambition, but no specific goals. I see passion, but no focus, no plan. I don't see that he loves Mathilde, as much as he wants the conquest over the others in Paris society who look down on him because of his low birth. Julien doesn't seem to place value on the qualities that he does have.

As you say, his love for Madame de Rênal wasn't sufficient to keep him from imagining someone more beautiful and intelligent than she was. Is Mathilde that girl? Is there something more than youth, beauty and intelligence to consider? Character perhaps? We need to learn more about Mathilde.

Does Mathilde love Julien, or does she want to conquer him? I see her, bored, as you all do, looking for the excitement and passion she does not have in her life - get the feeling that she wants something more for herself. Does she want to be known as a woman for whom a glorious hero would give up his life? Do you think she sees marriage to Julien in her future? In Chapter 11 she sees him as "a bishop, like Abbé Maury." I've a footnote in the Norton Critical on this bishop -

"Jean-Siffrein Maury (1746-1817) began life in a humble station, but through a combination of wit, braver, eloquence and ruthless ambition gained a cardinal's hat during the course of the Revolution."

I seem to remember Madame de Rênal, during the days of their affair, dreaming of Julien going far, high in the hierarchy of the Church. Marriage doesn't seem to be on the agenda for either of these women. Or a future, or permanence. Dare I say, Julien seems to be a boy-toy for both of them.

What did you think of Stendhal inserting himself into the novel - not just as an omniscient narrator, but as one of us, one of the readers of his novel?

"We are fond of Mathilde?"
"We hasten to declare that this character is a complete exception to the customs of the age."
"As a rule, lack of prudence is not a charge that can be leveled against the pupils of the noble Convent of the Sacred Heart."

What did you think of this interruption by the author? Was it necessary? Is this the first time he's joined us like this?

Today let's consider the "lack of prudence" that motivated Mathilde to declare her love for Julien. Isn't she writing this letter at great risk? On the other hand, I also think Julien has every reason in the world to suspect this is a trick to get him to answer her on paper, so that everyone can make sport of him.

Joan, it may be that Stendhal "inserting himself into the novel - not just as an omniscient narrator, but as one of us, one of the readers of his novel" is a device he used to encourage us to compare our own reactions to these characters and events to the way in which he sees them.

The narrator assumes a lofty (superior) attitude and appears to be amused by the interactions of the specimens he shows to us under his microscope. When Stendhal says "we", he's attempting to draw us into the story and invite us to share his sometimes ironic and disdainful perspective. We can choose to agree with the narrator and the author or we can form our own conclusions - but we do have to make a choice.

The narrator isn't consistent in his assessments, so we're constantly being thrown off-balance by him. That device keeps us engaged and thoughtful.

Joan, you've saved me from making a rash career move! I withdraw my request to play the part of Abbé Chélan. At my present stage in life I no longer wish to hear anyone's confessions.

"The narrator isn't consistent in his assessments, so we're constantly being thrown off-balance by him."

Road King - is it the narrator who isn't consistent, or is it his protagonist?
*************************

"We can choose to agree with the narrator and the author or we can form our own conclusions - but we do have to make a choice."

OK, let's make a choice - are "we" fond of Mathilde? Is she acting with imprudence? Can we trust her?

I'm not sure I do. I am not sure that I am fond of her. I feel something for Julien - I guess I feel sorry for him and don't see a bright future for him. He'll suffer for this love, I'm afraid. She'll get away scott-free, just as Queen Marguerite did.

During her internment in the Convent of the Sacre-Coeur, Mademoiselle de La Mole had been persuaded that, “in view of all her advantages of birth, fortune, etc., she ought to be happier than other girls.” She’s now 19 years old, already having wasted her best years “Without a grand passion, . . . languishing with boredom”. Alongs comes her “little Julien” who she admires because he despises people.

Mathilde finds her attraction for Julien is enhanced because her brother is afraid of him. He told her, – “Beware of that young man, who has so much energy . . . if the Revolution begins again, he will have us all guillotined.” and she interpreted that “as the highest possible praise. In this age, when all energy is dead, his energy makes them afraid.”

On that foundation – a mutual despising of people and fear-inspiring energy, coupled with her desperation to find the happiness that she believes is her birthright – she hopes to build a loving relationship with Julien.

I am not fond of Mathilde.

As regards the idle musings of young Mathilde, one can only remark as did General Lee,""It is well that war should be so terrible, If it were not, we might become too fond of it."

I don't see Julian as Road King's Dream Lover but as Rum Tum Tugger
The Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat
: If you offer him pheasant he would rather have grouse.
If you put him in a house he would much prefer a flat,
If you put him in a flat then he'd rather have a house.
If you set him on a mouse then he only wants a rat,
If you set him on a rat then he'd rather chase a mouse.
Yes the Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat -
And there isn't any call for me to shout it:
For he will do
As he do do
And there's no doing anything about it!

The fact that Julien sent Mathildes letters to his friend as possible evidence for the future shows that he is not enamored but getting "high" on the act of conquering the fair damsel. The damsel is besotted with him and has thrown caution to the winds. She has come from a world where everything is given her. Now she will pay the piper.

At the end of chapter xvi she asks "Can I have made a mistake, and not be in love with him? She is wising up and fate may hold things she is not expecting. Julien is no Romeo and she is no Juliet. Did their liason include a sexual element. Is there any question about that? Personally I think it did. What else were they doing all night? Anybody have any other ideas? Stendhal was not specific about that because writers were not specific back then.

I loved the Rum Tum Tugger bit. Julien is self centered but even more he thinks he will get where he wants to go, UP.! That is, he wants money and power.The fair damsel is just another perk-or so it seems.

Judy

Still behind in my reading, I just came in to say how very much I enjoyed the last posts, the Rum Tum Tugger, and Judy's wonderfully amusing thoughts.

As for the phrase "paying attention to", we really have to go by the original text quoted by ÉLOÏSE, notwithstanding the interpretations of different translators. The phrase means nothing more than flirting, giving the eye to, in the hope of getting attention in return, not always fulfilled.

Remember how much it meant for Julien to grasp at and hang on to Madame's hand and how long it took to get to that point ? In the days when women wore dresses wth those often multi-layered, voluminous skirts that moved with them, just to catch a look at a woman's ankle could be intoxicating for a man.
How times have changed !!

Yes Netflix has the 1997 French version -- just ordered a copy to catch up -

For some reason I can understand Julien's contempt of High Society because of how he was raised in an abusive family, but for me to be fond of Mathilde, no, she would have to be much less arrogant and conceited. Born rich and beautiful she abuses the power she has over everybody, it is not surprising that she thinks she can have her cake and eat it too.

What a coup it was for Julien to announce his departure, it was all he needed for Mathilde to write him two love letters and the third one asking him to come to her room using a ladder. Here we go again, I think Stendhal loved to write about lovers climbing ladders, I mean twice in the same novel is all too melodramatic.

I thought of titling this comment "deja vu" as films I'd seen and books I'd read with similar hypergamic plots came to mind, but realized in time that Le Rouge et Le Noir was their progenitor. Britian's angry young men raged through the 1950's over the class distinctions that had left them educated and unemployed. Who can forget the despicable Laurence Harvey scheming to marry his boss' daughter in Room at the Top. And, earlier, we have Dicken's Uriah Heap.
For that matter, as a dark-haired young man at a public school and state university, I lusted after (but never spoke to) the slim blonds who attended private institutions. (My family was so poor, I couldn't even afford a ladder.) Even today when I found myself sitting in a French conversation class next to a grey-haired Stanford graduate, I immediately perked up. This could be my chance!
"Yes, Scott, the rich are different from us. They have more money."

As recounted in my own novel,"In search of Aimai Cristen," I had responded to an ad in the Berkeley Barb, "young, attractive girl searching for love, compassionship,joy from a man who can provide financial security. Write Aimai Cristen at Box ..." As further recounted in this novel,the relevant extract of which may be viewed at http://www.iceflow.com/riverbabble/issue6/Good-apartmentinthevalley.html, I was going stir crazy in my San Fernando Valley apartment. So when the phone call came--a woman's voice--setting a time and place to meet, I immediately did a Julian. What if they broke into my apartment while I was away--cleaned it out? What if they were planning to rob me while I was on their turf? (Fortunately, car jacking hadn't been invented yet or I would have panicked further.) But still, it was a date. After confiding in my very nosey apartment manager (concierge would be a better description) I set out for my appointment.

At the end of Chapter 15, Julien thinks about the contrasts between Madame de Renal and Mathilde and the difference between the potential repercussions if either affair were to be discovered.

“It is an instrument,' he said to himself, with a laugh, 'which it is written in my destiny that I am to use! Here as at Verrieres. What a difference! Then,' he continued with a sigh, 'I was not obliged to be suspicious of the person for whose sake I was exposing myself. What a difference, too, in the danger!

“I might have been killed in M. de Renal's gardens without any harm to my reputation. It would have been easy to make my death unaccountable. Here, what abominable tales will they not bandy about in the drawing-rooms of the Hotel de Chaulnes, the Hotel de Caylus, the Hotel de Retz, and in short everywhere? I shall be handed down to posterity as a monster.”

Then, at the end of Chapter 16, Julien contemplates the difference between “love” in Verrieres and Paris.

“No regret, no reproach came to mar this night which seemed odd rather than happy to Julien. What a difference, great God, from his last visit, of twenty-four hours, to Verrieres! 'These fine Paris manners have found out the secret of spoiling everything, even love,' he said to himself with an extreme disregard of justice.”

Despite now being sympathetic toward Julien, I once again found myself annoyed with him during this section of reading. His indecisiveness drove me crazy! I can understand why he was having difficulty making up his mind about how to proceed with Mathilde. However, I just could not be patient with him. And now the consummated affair is not what either party hoped it would be! Oh no! I expected more indecisiveness about how to handle this new wrinkle.

After a lovely Mothers day I sat by the computer and the back of the novel was facing up. I had never read what was written there before. I will bring one sentence to your attention from this blurb.

"Stendhal paints a fascinating, multi layered portrait of Julien Sorel, one of literatures most complex and surprisingly sympathetic characters-a would be manipulator out of his depth in a sea of sharks."

Oh dear, oh dear, our boy will be eaten by sharks. Please have pity on him. He is indeed over his head and will soon drown. I was sure he would win out over Mathilde. Now I believe the opposite.

One thing is sure-this affair will not end as placidly and happily as the one with Mm. de Renal. I think the second ladder incident is there only to remind us of the first and make us believe that this incident is as benign as its predecessor. Obviously we wise old people wont be fooled , will we?

Judy

Bonjour mes amis!
Like Judy, we celebrated a lovely Mother's Day here and hope you did too. Growing up without a mother, never celebrating Mother's Day, the significance of the day has real meaning now. It was a very special day, remembering all the mothers, mothers-to-be in our expanding family. It wasn't just another "Hallmark holiday" as I used to dismiss it! The warm feelings and the flowers continue to blossom today...

Never turned on the computer all day - and now am faced with a real trove of posts I missed! Today is catch up day - though looking at the revised schedule, I note that we have until tomorrow pm to finish chapters 15 and 16 - to come to an agreement about what actually happened (or didn't happen ) in mademoiselle's chamber that night - before we face the morning-after repercussions on Wednesday.

Is there still a doubt, Judy? As Traudee says, just to hold a hand in these days was considered a conquest - Without even that much foreplay, did Julien, in the daring climb to her room in full moonlight manage the unprintable? It is difficult to imagine - but not so difficult to learn that it wasn't satisfactory - for either of the two.

LauraD - the "indecisiveness" you write about indicates to me that neither one was especially interested in pleasure in the first place, but rather in the idea of having completed the act - the conquest, the submission. Is there anyone here who believes that the conquest/submission may have been anything other than complete? - that Mlle. de la Mole is still a virgin? Is she now "damaged goods" on the marriage market her father is trying to broker? (Isn't Julien actually drawing up the marriage contract?)

Kidsal - it is good to know that Le Rouge is available through Netflix - did you order it in French? Can you catch up, but stop viewing the film BEFORE the climax? I worry that your feel compelled to watch the whole thing before returning it. The element of suspense Stendhal is creating is exquisite, I believe.

Coffee break - and then on to Rum Tum Tugger and yesterday's thought-provoking posts ...

Is Stendhal manipulating us into a dislike for Mathilde by continuing the contrast between herself and Madame de Rênal? Is there anyone here who finds her a sympathetic character? What does Stendhal leave for us to like - the fact that she is rich, intelligent and beautiful? Do we feel sorry for her because she is bored?

Road King describes her "internment in the Convent of the Sacre-Coeur - where she was persuaded she ought to be happier than other girls." Isn't this the same school attended by Madame de Rênal, ten years before? Was their schooling so different? Madame came out with no expectations for great passion, but with a sense of duty to marry and produce children. Does Mlle. de la Mole show any interest at all in the future - with anyone? Is it fair to blame the Convent of the Sacre-Coeur for raising her expectations for a grand passion?

Éloïse - sees her as arrogant and conceited, overcome with her own self-importance. - Did it start as just a contest - to get Julien to bow to her superiority? What pushed her into making the first move that resulted in Julien climbing yet another ladder? That's what this is all about, isn't it? Climbing ladders? Notice it is always Julien on the ladder up? I fear both ladies will be going down. I feel sympathy for Madame de Rênal - but not for this headstrong heiress who is bent on destroying her family, Julien, herself - without noticing - or caring.

“I might have been killed in M. de Renal's gardens without any harm to my reputation. LauraD - I notice that Julien never concerns himself with the ladies' reputations. I'm reminded of Mathilde's remark when Julien lets the ladder down -

"What will my mother say when she sees her beautiful flowers all trampled down."

What will she say indeed! Her pretty flowers are ruined!

Zany - you make me laugh - Rum Tum Tugger, indeed! Did you know that Andrew Lloyd Webber created his musical Tugger with Mick Jagger in mind? Somehow I don't see Mick in the Julien role - a bit too much swagger!

You caught my attention with your reference to "hypergamic plots." I looked up the definition of "hypergame" -

Hypergame:
"A two-player game in which player 1 chooses any finite game and player 2 moves first. A pseudoparadox then arises as to whether the hypergame is itself a finite game."

What made Mathilde make the first move? Éloïse points out that it was Julien's announcement that he was leaving for an extended period that forced her hand to act first - in this "hypergamic plot." (Remember when Julien announced he was going to the seminary - remember when he announced he was leaving for Paris? His departure was the catalyst that prompted Madame de Rênal's submission too.)

Julien has every reason to suspect that Mathilde's attention is part of a plot to ruin him - He sends her letters off to Fouqué as evidence that he did not take her against her will, if that is what it comes to. I think I suspected a plot too - except for the fact that Stendhal lets us into the inner-workings of Mathilde's mind.

How can this "game" ever end? Mathilde will always be aware that Julien is inferior, try as she may to convince herself he is worthy of her. Julien will always be aware that he is beneath her, always taking offense, always trying to prove his worth.

It's shaping up to be a real tragedy, isn't it? But I guess we've known that all along. I think people of this age prefer Romantic happy endings... Judy, yes, Julien is out of his league, I'm afraid - in over his head in a sea of sharks. Some of us do pity him.

In chap. 13, after Mathilde declared her love for him, Julien congratulated himself in having won the affections of this high-born lady who preferred him, “a poor peasant from the Jura”, over her suitor, the charming Marquis de Croisenois. This victory was more important to him than was the prospect of actually experiencing a love affair with Mathilde.

Assessing his triumph over the aristocratic Croisenois and Mathilde, Julien concluded that, in spite of his humble birth, he had the right stuff to succeed in life. He would have preferred a heroic military career but he’d been born too late to take advantage of the opportunities for advancement that the Napoleonic wars had once offered to young men. “Alas, twenty years ago, I should have worn uniform like them! In those days a man of my sort was either killed, or a General at six and thirty.” That way closed to him, Julien had chosen an alternate route to fame and fortune – the clergy.

Julien is engaged in mortal combat with a society that is not a meritocracy. It was hard to rise above the social strata into which you had been born, unless you had a patron, which is what Julien seems to have found in the Marguis de La Mole. The advantages of patronage, though, are not the only weapons in Julien’s arsenal. It’s his wardrobe. He will succeed because he knows how to dress for success.

Julien, the priest in training, feels “condemned always to wear this dismal black coat!” but believes that will utimately be to his advantage. “Nowadays, it is true, with the said black coat, at the age of forty, a man has emoluments of one hundred thousand francs and the Blue Riband, like the Bishop of Beauvais. I know how to choose the uniform of my generation. How many Cardinals have there been of humbler birth than mine, who have risen to positions of government! My fellow-countryman Granvelle, for instance.”

Julien, the seminary dropout, hopes to emulate Granvelle’s success, but fails to appreciate that Granvelle, before he became a Bishop, at age 23, had actually completed his studies in law at Padua and in divinity at Leuven.

marrying above one's station.

"hypergamy: marrying above one's station".

That differentiates it from monogamy: a monotonic relationship.

Another type of marriage between people of unequal social class is Morganatic marriage that could/can be contracted in certain countries. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morganatic_marriage

hypergamy: when a man marries above his station.
hypogamy: when a man marries below his station. Morganatic marriage is an example of hypogamy.

The movie I ordered through Netflix is French but hopefully with subtitles. My French consists of one semester in the 11th grade. The good thing about Netflix is that you can keep the movie as long as you like.

Traude, thank you for the link about unequal marriages, people marrying out of their rank.

Julien is a man to be pitied. He is rushing here and there always living with negative assumptions in his head, never enjoying life. I fear Julien will never learn that there is such a thing as genuine love. He is stepping all over life and not living it. He is like a bumper car avoiding the crashes he see in his dreams. Only one time did he almost enjoy life and begin to understand love. This happened Mme. de Renal's children especially with the one boy.

I am not fond of Mathilde, nor do I trust her. Julien doesn’t even trust her, her social associates, or, it seems, anyone in Paris. The story of Marguerite de Valois fortells danger, as does Julien’s action of making copies of Mathilde’s letters.

I do think the relationship of Mathilde and Julien was consummated, so to speak, and these two quotes could support that thought (or not, Stendhal is vague):

“…Mathilde eventually became a charming mistress.” “Mademoiselle de la Mole thought she was fulfilling a duty towards herself and towards her lover.”

Bonjour mes amis!
Before we begin to examine our young "lovers' morning-after tomorrow morning, we have another day to allow others of our partie to catch up with us. Mais, regardez! Knox! Quelle surprise - a wonderful one - to find you in our midst this morning! Please tell us a little about yourself? Bienvenue!
I was particularly interested in your comments on the "weapons" in Julien's arsenal -
It still isn't clear what the Marquis' patronage will do for Julien, since I don't yet understand this experiment. He may be using Julien for something. Can Julien count on him for advancement? And what sort of advancement can he expect? As you point out, Julien is a seminary dropout - how can he hope for advancement in the clergy. (Unless bishoprics and the like were meted out in this way at this time?)

From comments here yesterday on hypergamy/hypogamyMorganatic marriage, a number of you are considering the possibility of a marriage with the Marquis' daughter? This would truly represent the Marquis' patronage, wouldn't it? We've discussed the possibility of pregnancy back in Verrières - since most of us believe the union was consummated in Mathilde's chambers, that's a possibility that might precipitate a hypo/hyper union, n'est-ce pas?

While waiting for the others to catch us, I'd like to take the time to go back over chapter 16 to examine closer at what Stendhal has accomplished here.

ps. kidsal, I'm happy to know that Netflix will let you keep the film as long as you want! Promise to turn it off as soon as you reach the ladder-climbing scene to Mathilde's chamber, okay!

Hats - I know what you mean, I pity Julien too. In spite of everything, it seems he will never get over his pride - or the fact of his low birth. How can he ever enjoy life - how can he ever feel love, feel that he is lovable? What if it is proven that he is in fact the illegitimate son of a nobleman as has been suggested on a number of occasions? Would he feel vindicated - or even more disgraced?

What continues to impress me is the fact that he doesn't give a thought to the ladies that he is "ruining" if caught. For that I find it impossible to "like" him. But I trust him.

LauraD - I'm afraid that Mathilde cannot be trusted - though I no longer suspect she is plotting against Julien. She cannot be trusted because she is not honest - even with herself. She plans to marry Croisenois, yet she wants to have this passionate affair with Julien first. And then she has no conscience as she rushes off to Mass with maman the next morning.

Funny the way both Julien and Mathilde regarded the consummation of their affaire as duty - nothing else. As Knox pointed out- "His victory over "the charming Marquis de Croisenois" was more important to him than was the prospect of actually experiencing a love affair with Mathilde.

Rereading the chapter, the scene is one of military ambush against de Croisenois - when he enters Mathilde's room, he is waving his pistol at her. When she thinks she hears a noise and clutches his arm, he pulls a dagger on her. How romantic!

"Mustn't break the glass," she warns him - Glass again. Broken glass and Madame's trampled flower bed. I loved the symbolism. LauraD, there is no question that the affair was consummated, was there? What next?

What Stendhal has "accomplished in chapter 16" is to emphasize Mathilde's inability to see Julien as a person in his own right. She's so desperate to escape from the banality of 19th century Paris that she's constructing a fantasy world for herself, in which she's cast Julien in the role of a heroic and courageous lover.

Julien will allow himself to play this part. It appeals to him because he can demonstrate courage. Julien is not as out of touch with reality as Mathilde but he's constantly reinventing himself. He's a faux priest-in-training who has allowed himself to be costumed as a dandy by the Marquis, and now he's playing Mathilde's exciting but tragic 16th century lover.

Not surprisingly, neither Mathilde nor Julien experienced "bliss" in their moonlit misadventure. Mathilde had not emotionally prepared herself for her loss of virginity (especially to a peasant), and Julien, I think, is still in love with Madame de Rênal.

I agree completely with Knox. The behavior of Mathilde and Julian (and the beliefs on which their behavior is based) are entirely in keeping with their ages. Or, to put it somewhat differently,Julian reacts much as I did at that age, and the girls I encountered then treated me much the same way. How fortunate for the more judgemental among us that they were able to skip adolescence.
Nosce te ipsum. "Egotism, providing it is sincere, is one way of communicating the human heart."

I’m looking forward to a lively discussion. I’ve read the discussion guidelines and agree to abide by them.

May I defer “telling you a little” about myself until I’m more sure of my surroundings? We’ll get acquainted with one another as we reveal our personalities in our postings. I'm sure that the people we're all most interested in are the characters in this novel. For now, I’ll just try to follow the advice Stendhal gave to his friend, Prosper Mérimée, about overcoming self-consciousness.

“It is a difficult thing for a young man to enter a salon. He imagines that he is being watched and always fears making mistakes. ‘I advise you’, he (Beyle) said to me, ‘to enter as though, as luck would have it, you just happened to be passing. Don’t worry about whether or not this is appropriate. Be as the statue of the commander and stay exactly like that until you are quite calm.’ ”

Bonjour, mes amis!
Knox, for however long we have you in our midst, we appreciate your "passing through"- it shouldn't take long for you to find a comfort level here. As you observed yesterday, neither experienced the hoped-for night of bliss - it will be interesting to see how they feel about things the morning after. Notice that Mathilde slipped off to church with maman as soon as Julien left her.

Zany - tell the truth! At Julien's age, would you have dared to climb the ladder to the chamber of the boss' daughter - in full moonlight, with the lights still on in big brother's room right next door? Would you have expected to be met with open arms for your derring-do?

I agree with you, I don't think Mathilde was emotionally prepared for the trampled flower bed either - I was surprised that she went through with it. She submitted because this was the requirement for a grand affair. She was following the "rules" - consciously using the familiar "tu" over the more formal "vous" when addressing him. (They hadn't even gone beyond this in their conversation before this meeting!) Julien noted that she was submitting out of a sense of duty and he found this a turn-0ff. I couldn't help but ask if this wasn't what Julien was doing?

Were you expecting remorse at the breakfast table?

Joan I fear you don't understand men at all and that you will find Julien's feelings in Chapter 18 incomprehensible. "At Julien's age, would I have dared to climb the ladder to the chamber of the boss' daughter - in full moonlight, with the lights still on in big brother's room right next door?" Mais certainment! How I, how all young men, would have liked,did crave the opportunity, Cyrano and Galois our heroes.

As for expecting to be embraced by Matilde (or Maxine or Carole or whatever her name was) with open arms, I'm afraid in the rush of adrenalin, all thoughts of love may, momentarily, have been brushed aside.

I was delighted to read about Julien climbing the ladder to Mathilde’s room in bright moonlight and within view of her brother’s room. Yes, it was foolhardy, reckless, etc., etc., but I thought it was also quite believable. Lured by a very beautiful, sexy and willing nineteen-year old female, a young man is defenseless and common-senseless.

That ladder scene in Paris was played out again, with uncanny similarity, about 128 years later by a boy in Kentucky. Next day the lad's neighbor-lady ratted him out to his parents and there were consequences.

He would do it again.

No. I can't pass through chapter XV11 without a comment. L'amour leaves the two lovers loving and hating each other. Mathilde can't decide whether she loves J or hates him. He is so hurt by her sudden coldness after the first night of love that he falls into despair. He thinks he hates her for being so cold with him and a few days after he finds he still loves her. She thinks she can no longer have power over him because she abandoned herself to him. She says: "J'ai horreur de m'être livré au premier venue", crying in anger against herself for her weakness." She wants to end the affair permanently..."he will think he is my lord and master now and she runs away."

Seeing Julien replacing the old sword in its usual place she suddenly finds him attractive again while he finds her quite beautiful storming from the room in anger. He says: "Mon Dieu! qu'elle est belle...here is the woman who ran to his arms with so much fury only 8 days ago. He wants to run away to Languadoc."

Now she regrets the love they once had and wants to regain him. She uses old time ploys to making him love her again speaking to him about her love for Caylus and Croisenois and he is deeply hurt again.

It's a yoyo relationship of love and hate, of deep exctacy and deep anguish, of moments of pure bliss followed by moments of utter despair. She thinks she can have him in the palm of her hand, but she doesn't know what's in store for her. He has "d'autres cordes à son arc."

I don't remember who said this but how true it is: "How many masterpieces were inspired by unhappy love affairs". Is it possible to have great love and not suffer I wonder?

Eloise, I had my comments on chapter 17 all ready to post and then I read your very thoughtful analysis. My more light-hearted approach (flippant?) will not, I hope, be interpreted as disrespectful to yours.

Julien considers – and rejects – the idea that Mathilde’s “coldness” towards him signals her “return to virtue”. That can’t be it. Virtue is a bourgeois concept, not in Mathilde’s repertoire.

Julien recalls that when she gave herself to him (for the first time, to anyone), she was rather more calculating than free and spontaneous. He wonders if Mathilde now thinks her gift to him, because of his humble birth, was a terrible mistake. It’s a bit more complicated than that. (With Mad Mole, everything is more complicated.)

Mathilde’s vanity is the issue. She’s surrendered preeminence in her relationship with Julien and, “have given myself a master”. Mathilde is a little ambilvalent about who she wants to be in charge but her real fear is that Julien, to nurture his own vanity, might broadcast the news of his conquest over her.

I was hoping the tedium in this chapter was going to be relieved when Julien drew the sword. "Mathilde, delighted by so novel a sensation, advanced proudly towards him." Mathilde (and I) would have loved for him to run her through but he wimped out.

hahaha, Zany - that's not the first time I've been told that I don't understand men! I'm going to confess that what I find MOST interesting in this romance is that I recognize the wild and crazy boy. I had to believe that the demonstrated passion was an act. Could not believe anyone could really feel that strongly about me. And there was always that fear - would he still love me tomorrow. But you know, I've never stopped wondering what might have been. I guess I'm saying I do understand Mathilde's hesitation.

Knox - yes,climbing the ladder was daring and reckless. Mathilde was overwhelmed that he would risk everything for her. Up until this point, I think she was in love with the idea of love and a grand passion. Now that it is a real possibility, she really doesn't know how to react, because she just wasn't ready for it!

I have to ask...were the parental consequences fatal? Did the Kentucky boy come away with girl after all? Lucky girl! She'd never have to wonder what would have been had she let him in ... A good question - "Is it possible to have great love and not suffer?" I would guess only a few can answer in the affirmative.

Éloïse - a very, very fine line between love and hate, n'est-ce pas? Is that why Julien draws the sword? Did he intend to frighten her - or just to show her how angry he is with her? I worry that he wasn't thinking at all - that the action was how he really felt at the moment.
Knox - do you think he was that furious with her, even for a second that he thought of running the sword through the lady to relieve his anger? Is he capable of such an extreme action? It isn't the first time that such thoughts have passed through his mind, is it?

No, Joan, I don't think Julien, "even for a second" intended to kill Mathilde.

She was terribly cruel - and dishonest - to tell him that she'd given herself to him only because he was "the first comer". We've read her thoughts and know that she found Julien handsome and was further attracted to him because of his intellect and noble character. Julien courageously accepted the invitation to her bedchamber, performed as best he could with the tense virgin, and her insulting remark later was completely uncalled for.

Julien's reaction to her cruelty was involuntary and he quickly recovered his compusure. Mathilde had thrust a vicious insult into Julien's heart but he didn't counterattack.

I do think he's "capable of such extreme action". He's human, after all.

Napoleon and Josephine, Romeo and Juliet, Carmen and Don Jose, Marilyn M and John K, opera composer, famous novelists, painters of masterpieces, great poets were all passionate people and very few were happy in love except for a brief period of time perhaps.

Julien is excessive (exhalté) in everything and he is prepared to risk his life for the woman he loves, his reputation and his high goals. He acts on the spur of the moment in his pationate moments, he doesn't think things out. He is YOUNG.

Joan: "A novel is a mirror moving along a highway." Isn't the author saying his mirror reflects reality?" I believe that the author wants to portray society as it is, or as he sees it. It is unfortunate that Julien's past was so dismal because it made him cynical, but it was not his past that gave him the ambition. It's not only a great mentor that creates a genius, the seed has to be there in the first place.

The deeper we get into the story, the more sympathetic I become toward Julien. Yeah, his personality is a bit flawed and he's very often his own worst enemy but, until seminary and then Paris, he was educable and so there was hope for him to become a better - and happier! - person.

Julien decided to become a priest (never mind his motivations) and went to seminary. That might have had a positive effect on his character and been the turning point in his life. He was already predisposed to disbelieve the (memorized) message of the gospel and unfortunately there was nothing in that seminary-from-hell that could have changed his mind. The church failed him

He has a patron now but the Marquis is supporting and promoting him for his own selfish reasons. Julien's welfare is the last thing on that kinky old man's mind. If you will allow me to say that the Marquis de la Mole represents Paris society, I will take the liberty of concluding that "society" is failing Julien

Then there's the love interest with which he's been cursed. Who among us could maintain our balance if we had to deal with the difficult Mathilde? Is it fair to say that "love" has failed Julien?

All this, of course, is the author's doing. Stendhal has failed Julien.

If he could just get out of that novel ...

Oh Knox, You write about Julien that "He's only human". Thats very funny when you consider he is a character in a book.

Stendhal inserts himself into our story from time to time. Why? .My guess is he doesn't want us to be too complaisant or take it all too seriously. I think he takes his characters drama lightly but the society they function in very seriously.In chapt. 17 he quotes from Don Juan:

I now mean to be serious, it is time

Since laughter now-a-days is deemed too serious.

A jest at vice by virtue's called a crime.

As a teen ager reading the book I completely missed the humor and satire. When it is just Julien and Mathilde before us the story takes on overtones of a comic opera. But when their actions are related to the world they live in ,the story becomes a lesson in History of that society-its mores and unwritten rules of conduct for people from different societal brackets. Stendhal is indeed a genius.

Judy

I get lost trying to read the footnotes in the back of my book. My footnotes seem very brief. For one thing I found it particularly interesting to read about M. de la Mole's frustration with his new books. He had received many fake Memoirs. At first, I thought this meant the books were written by ghostwriters of that day. Then, I thought it might mean the fake memoirs were people writing their memoirs with exaggerations or omissions. The Marquis does keep the books in his room. "These new book only had to be hostile to the interests of throne and altar, and they would disappear in no time. Knowing his daughter, Mathilde's reading habits, is the Marquis afraid she would become excited and take the books to her room?

My real question is about the fake memoirs. My footnote reads "There was such a vogue for memoirs in 1829-30 that numerous fake ones of famous people were published and avidly read."

I remember reading about the "other author" in Don Quixote's adventures. Don Q became very upset about what was written or not written or totally falsified in those adventures. JoanP, Maryal and Marni and Eloise, do you remember that part? The second writer of Don Quixote's adventures?? Hope my head is not totally turned on backwards. Would these writings be a type of fake memoirs?

Traude, I don't often lurk in the Civilization discussion. On this particular day I did lurk because I had always heard the names Abelard and Heloise. I didn't know the details of their lives. When I came to chapter 15 in Stendahl's book, Abelard's name jumped out at me. "watch out for Abelard's fate, Mister secretary!" I think Julien is having a discussion with himself in an undertone here. I do that too. I can gather my thoughts better.

My footnote: "Pierre Abelard(1079-1142) was a scholastic philosopher best remembered for his ill-fated passion for his pupil Heloise. Her uncle took revenge by breaking into Abelard's room at dead of night and castrating him."

Totally young and foolish, Mathilde and Julien do seem to have a bit in common. They are so well read, so eager to learn. I do worry about someone really getting hurt before this is all over. I have a thought. I just don't know whether the words will come out of my head on to the computer page. Will an angry father become involved in this tangled romantic situation? Julien does think about the dirty looks he is receiving from the Marquis, knowing the Marquis would prefer to have M. de Croisenois as a son-in-law, instead of his secretary. "I am scoring a victory over the marquis in this sense, that he'll be most annoyed to have a successor, and even more annoyed that this successor should be me."

Could the Marquis end up hurting Julien in order to save his daughter from marrying a peasant trying to climb the rungs of success? Instead of an uncle this time could a father do a vengeful act to save his daughter from making a wrong choice in marriage only then to find out, after some horrible, irrechangeable deed, that the Marquis is of noble blood???

By the way, I don't think Julien loved Mme. de Renal. He's too involved with protecting himself to fall in love. He's busy playing at being a pretend soldier.

I did have to laugh at this comical Romeo and Juliet thing going on in the garden with rope and ladder. Then, of all things, Mathilde keeps a "supply of ropes in" her "room." What a girl! How in the world can the Marquis keep up with her when she is not reading?

I also laughed at the way Julien and Mathilde used the Creole language to further their whispered plans. One of the servants in the house is from San Domingo. I am thinking San Domingo is in Haiti. Where is it? I hope my laughter at this section is not offensive.

Most of us agree Julien is young and headstrong and ambitious. Will he ever mature? Will he stop taking the feelings of others so lightly before someone really gets hurt? Looking at life like it is a military coup is driving me nuts. It's so heartless. This is one young man who needed a set of toy soldiers to play with while growing up. May be that is the problem with Julien. I suppose he missed most of the playful days of childhood: an unhappy home with cruel brothers, strange father, missing war action, etc.

What is the psychological term? Is it Freudian? If you miss a stage, like the anal stage, you will retrogress in some way in order to live out that stage in your life before going on to the next stage of life? That too is like going up the rungs of ladder, moving forward and backward in life's growth stages.

Laura D, I think she became Julien's mistress that night too. I think it is her first time too because she is disappointed that it was not more like "the perfect bliss depicted in novels."

Received and watched my Red and Black video (Disc 1) from Netflix. It comes in two discs. The first disc ends as Julien leaves for Paris. In French with subtitles.

Bonjour, mes amis!

You have posted much to chat about today! I think the best thing to do is begin by addressing some ofhats' questions before moving on into the library to see how Julien and Mathilde comport themselves following "the big night." This must have been near impossible, don't you think, considering they both lived under the same roof - took meals together with the family, etc.

Kidsal, you are making up for lost time with the film version. French with translated subtitles! Julien is just arriving in Paris - leaving all thoughts of Madame de Rênal behind. (Do you think he ever addressed her as "Louise"?)

hats doesn't think he ever loved her. I don't either. I think loving someone means that you have some concern for the happiness and well-being of the other. But then, maybe men aren't like that - admittedly, I don't know much about men

, but I don't see Julien giving a second thought to what happened to Madame after he fled her chambers in a state of dishabille in a hail of gunshot. As time goes by, we see him comparing Mathilde (unfavorably) to the loving Madame de Rênard, who gave everything of herself to him. I'm seeing the same lack of concern for Mathilde too! We seem to be ready to blame this on his youth.

Knox - it was interesting reading your comments - excusing Julien's conduct - placing the blame elsewhere -

The Church failed Julien.

Society has failed Julien.

Love has failed Julien.

Stendhal has failed Julien.

Judy smiles at the very idea that we are considering Julian as "only human"- considering he is a character in a book. You may remember from our pre-discussion of this book that Stendhal wrote Julien's character as a new and improved self, to explain away his shortcomings and to give him a better, more successful life. We learned about Stendhal's youthful days from his autobiography - (where is our Road King - I really miss him and hope he returns before long. He was reading the Life of Henry Brulard, where we learned of Stendhal's youth.

Knox, perhaps you have hit upon Stendhal's message here - the Church and society (the aristocracy) have failed. What hope for happiness did an individual living in these times have? Stendhal's Julien seems to be doing the best one can do, given the treacherous period in which he lives.

Is Stendhal doing the same - using Julien's youthful callousness to explain his own past?

Hats, I too find many parts absolutely hilarious. I am not given much to laughing out loud reading a novel but this one has that affect on me, especially the ladder scene, unless, as Joan said, it symbolized climbing the ladder of success. Stendhal is torn between showing up society's faults and making a credible plot that readers can accept. He succeeds because of his excellent penmanship but some parts are just too unbelievable, yet a reader is compelled to continue.

As you said, this story could be the author's enhanced memoirs meant to provide fantasy and excitement to a reader's dull life. The love story is the vehicle by which he analyses a society which is not that far removed from the mores and values of our own, in a way.

If one is calculating and shrewd, it is Mathilde in my view. She says at the end of chapter X111:

'Companion of a man such as Julien, who is only lacking fortune, which I have, I will continuously draw attention, I will not be unnoticed in life. Far from always being afraid of revolution, like my cousins,... I will be sure to be playing a grand role, a very grand role, because the man I chose has character and ambition without borders. What does he lack? friends? money? I give him that'. "But her thoughts treated Julien a bit like an inferior being, from whom one can make oneself be loved when one wants to." My translation.

What conceit, what condescendance, watch yourself my girl, Julien is not done with you yet.

Judy and Hats, I just chuckled all the way through Chapter 17! I started laughing while finishing the first paragraph:

“It was evidently not the same woman who on the proceeding night had had, or pretended to have had, transports of happiness which were too extravagant to be genuine.”

What a funny way to put that!

In the middle of the chapter, even the narrator tells us, “The dialogue of these two lovers was incomparably humourous.”

Then, towards the end of the chapter, when Julien draws the sword, it is too much:

“’She will certainly,’ he thought, ‘burst out laughing at the sight of such a melodramatic pose.’”

I did!

And Laura D, Mathilde just loved how properly Julien placed the sword back in its place.

On a more serious note, I am concerned about both Julien and Mathilde.

“’So I have been on the verge of being killed by my lover,’ she said to herself.

“This idea transported her into the palmist days of the age of Charles IX and of Henri III.”

There is trouble ahead!

I have the same feelings. Trouble is on the horizon.

As I was thumbing back through the pages to find reference to the false memoirs hats referred to earlier I came across another stabbing, which might in part explain Mathilde's delight at the sight of Julien drawing the antique sword (with some difficulty) from its sheathe...

"One day she told him, with that gleam of pleasure in her eyes which betokens sincere admiration, about the behavior of a young woman during Henri III's reign, about whom she had just been reading in the Mémoires of l'Étoile, finding that her husband was unfaithful, she stabbed him."

Knox - "Julien's reaction to her cruelty was involuntary and he quickly recovered his compusure. Mathilde had thrust a vicious insult into Julien's heart but he didn't counterattack. Mathilde had thrust a vicious insult into Julien's heart."

Knowing that she had so moved Julien gave Mathilde power over him. No wonder she was delighted! Éloïse, I am remembering here that Mathilde has vowed that at the first sign of Julien's weakness, she is done with him. And Julien has promised if he can make her fall in love with him, he'll leave her. Maybe such promises are made to be broken. I agree with you, El - and think Julien's low birth will be the deal breaker. Will all of Mathilde's fantasies overcome the fact is that he is her inferior - and therefore weak?

-hats - I found the reference to the false memoirs back in Chapter XIII -
Julien and the Marquis have become quite close over the winter while the Marquis was housebound with the gout attack. His bookseller has been sending him books - and the Marquis is "becoming irked with all the mock Mémoires" he is receiving. I have a footnote here -

"A man named Soulavie was particularly ingenious and prolific in fabricating fake memoirs pretending to be the work of Revolutionary figures; the Napoleonic wars and Empire produced a flock more."

The Marquis instructed Julien to select his reading for him - and Julien began to stock his shelves with true memoirs - which disappeared as fast as Julien could shelve them. In effect Julien is buying books on the Revolution - for Mlle. de la Mole, as well as for her father. I continue to wonder about the Marquis's true political views and his plan for Julien.

JoanP, thank you. That is very interesting information about those "fake memoirs."

- hats - I do remember very well the false memoirs that so infuriated Don Quixote that he felt compelled to get out of his bed and go out once more to prove them false! That was another hilarious tale, with a serious underlying commentary of the times.

You ask the question that is whispering in the back of my mind - maybe Julien's too, hats - "Could the Marquis end up hurting Julien in order to save his daughter from marrying a peasant trying to climb the rungs of success?"
Julien is well aware that he is hurting the man he has come to love (he has, hasn't he?) At the same time he is working on the marriage contract between his daughter and Croisenois. How despicable is this? But does this concern Julien as much as his distress at Mathilde's behavior? He hasn't won her yet, but must stay on and fight the good fight for her heart, if not her hand.

Judy, it is good that you turn our attention to those epigrams preceding the chapters. Stendhal speaks to us through his selection. It is important for us to remember that the melodramatic story is also "a lesson in History of that society-its mores and unwritten rules of conduct for people from different societal brackets." I'm wondering whether Stendhal will marry the two stories before the conclusion - Julien's inner conflicts, affairs - with the coming Revolution and its political ramifications. For some reason, I think not. Do you?

LauraD, a very fine line between comedy and tragedy, We are laughing but all the time realize that there is tragedy in the coming pages. At least one of these characters is going to die. In the broader picture, Revolution is in the air. We can expect bloodshed, anyway we look at it. It's good that Stendhal has provided comic relief in this context, don't you think?

In chapter 18, the emotionally acrobatic Mademoiselle de La Mole does a mental back flip.

She begins by thinking that Julien is worthy of being her lord and master because he’s had the courage to think of killing her. Mathilde takes pleasure in her garden walks with Julien while recounting the intimate details of her flirtations with former suitors. How gauche!

Julien got jealous listening to Mathilde’s verbal diary and foolishly confessed his love for her. Well, that did it! She'll not stand for such impudence. Mathilde (now playing the part of her bad twin) got all huffy and became her cold self again.

At chapter’s end she regards Julien as nothing more than a prostitute – “an inferior being who can be made to love one when one wills”.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hats, from a freudian point of view, what did you think of Julien angrily drawing his sword and then casually re-sheathing it?

Knox, I love that question! I am not sure how to answer it. I see it in a sexual light. I didn't think of that until you brought my mind back to the sword and unsheathing. Definitely, I see the man as the powerful strength and authority over the weakly woman. Do you see a form of dominance and submission? That's the game these two seem to be playing, tit for tat. Wonder what Road King thinks about this???? What are you thinking Knox?

I also thought of that old rhyme, "He love me. He loves me not. He loves me continued until the woman gets to the last petal of the daisy.

Can anyone identify the opera (and the aria) that so moved Matilde or is it just an abstraction?

Judy noted that I regard Julien as being "human" and not just a fictitious character. You've found me out. My strong identification with Julien sometimes disorients me and I forget that he's not flesh and blood.

May I ask, how is this story affecting everyone else? I can't think of any other book that has so effectively transplanted me into the minds and hearts of its characters. If it were in my power, how would I counsel Julien? Do you find yourselves thinking like that?

~ ~ ~ hats, as far as I can tell, Stendhal spent a great deal of time thinking about women and sex. His emotional development got stuck at the adolescent stage, I think. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Stendhal intended the swordplay to have phallic implications. That wasn't my impression when I first read the scene but your reference to Freud, in another context, got me thinking along that line.

This morning, as I dressed for gardening, I strapped on my six-shooter in the event that I encountered Mathilde, strolling out there under the lime trees. “Prudence dictates,” I thought . . .

I was then startled by the “thwap-thwap-thwap” of a sinister-looking, BLACK helicopter, flying low over my bunker. My 19th century paranoia, recorded on BLACK and white film, gradually dissolved into the Technicolor terrors of 21st century yard chores.

Regaining my senses, I remembered my harsh criticisms of Mademoiselle de La Mole. She's no more “human” than Julien, I reasoned. “Poor girl, how unfairly I’ve treated her in my insensitive rantings. She is merely a two-dimensional fiction, pressed between the covers of a book, and completely defenseless!”

I was ashamed. Could I ever make it up to her? Stendhal made it so difficult for me to like her – and I fell for it!

Well, I know how to redeem Mathilde’s character that Stendhal has so malevolently portrayed. I am an educated man; I have been to the movies! In particular, I’ve seen the film, “Who Framed Roger Rabbit”. Roger is married to Jessica, a voluptuous, cartoon vamp. Towards the end of the film, she wants to set the record straight about her real character. Jessica, the cartoon, declares, “I’m not really bad – I’m just drawn that way.”

Mathilde is not really bad – she’s just written that way.

Oh, I'm having such a wonderful time reading these posts! It's so fun seeing men's points of view regarding Julien and Mathilde! And so funny!!

Regarding Julien's love for Madame de Renal - I do think he did love her in his fashion. He remembers her frequently with great tenderness. She wins out when he compares her to other women.

Oh, mon Dieu, the ups and downs of the emotions of Julien and Mathilde. They are both young. I can understand some of Mathilde's mixed feelings. She is used to the best, after all. Giving up her virginity can happen only once. Oh, what has she done? I think some of their behavior seems very real. I remember the first time I fell in love. Oh, the inner turmoil!

Plus, she told the world of her love, calling Julien "My master" in public. Everyone must know. I don't think Julien is just imagining coolness. I think it is really there. I'm wondering if they made a lot of noise the first night? Her mother immediately took precautions the very next day. Obviously, she and others knew something was up and were going to put a stop to the affair.

Zanabooks, there is no mention which opera was played nor the aria because I was interested in that also. The title of the X1Xth chapter is "L'opéra Bouffe" an opera with a happy ending, an operetta eg: Les Contes d'Hoffman by Offenbach.

I gave up on Don Quixote early Hats, perhaps I am the only one who doesn't like fantasy.

Knox, about: "Regaining my senses, I remembered my harsh criticism of Mademoiselle de La Mole. She's no more “human” than Julien, I reasoned..." I often say the same thing to myself, it's only fiction.

I spent much of today thinking about Knox's question, "what advice would I give to Julien?" and the variant,"what advice would I give my younger self?" Well, according to Robert Sage who translated Beyle's diaries, Julian is acting on the advice Beyle would have given his younger self. "all his readings and observations had convinced him that the proper thing for a self-respecting young man was to have a married woman, preferably of a superior social rank, as his mistress. His determination to possess [the wife of Pierre Daru a mother of four)was as passionless as that of Julien Sorel to possess Mme.de Renal; the only difference was that he gave his hero the aggressiveness that he himself had lacked."

In chapter 19, Mathilde tries to make herself feel better about entertaining thoughts of love for Julien.

“But if one has a weakness,” she said to herself, it is incumbent upon a girl like myself to forget her duties only for a man of merit; people will not be able to say that it was his handsome moustaches or his elegant seat on a horse that seduced me, but his profound discussions of the future in store for France, his ideas as to the resemblance the events that are going to burst upon us may bear to the Revolution of 1688 in England.

Mathilde then decides that Julien will play Roland and she will play Madame Roland in the upcoming revolution. Well, she’s getting her revolutions mixed up. (Roland and his formidable wife were important figures leading up to the French Revolution). No matter, Mathilde cares very little about political upheavals. In her mind, revolutions merely serve as backdrops for what really matters. People get killed! Madame Roland was guillotined and her grieving husband then stabbed himself to death.

Oooh la la! It seems the sword must be unsheathed yet again if Julien wishes to overcome and delight the lady, hats! Knox, Stendhal has not only transplanted me into mind and hearts of his characters - but he strikes such chords, I become one with them!

Marni, that's it - the first time. Does one ever really get over that first love? You're right, of course - the family knows. "Did they make noise," you ask. I'm wondering if everyone in the family knows. I can't believe that Papa de la Mole does, can you?

Zany, I have a note on the opera buffa - as Eloise has said, the name of the opera from which the aria came is unknown - to us, anyway. I have a footnote in the Norton Critical Edition -

"I (Robert Adams) have been unable to locate this aria, or, consequently, the name of the opera responsible for Mathilde's conversion."

If it's true, as Marni says, that Maman knows about the big night - enough to send the maid to sleep in Mathilde's chambers, imagine what she thought when she heard her daughter play the aria on her piano into the night following the opera buffa -

Devo punirmi, devo punirmi
Se troppo amai, etc.

You must punish me for the excessive adoration I feel for him.
I love him far too much".

- Knox - give Stendhal a chance, maybe we'll see him allow the girl to improve in the remaining pages. He is fond of her after all - those arms...

What advice would I give to Julien, Zany? What advice would I give to my sons? It's easier to give advice to others than to oneself, isn't it? Maybe that's why Stendhal is making a muddle of it. Maybe I'd tell him to do unto others as he would have others do unto him. I guess that wouldn't work, would it. As you say, I don't know men.

ps. Eloise, believe it or not, everyone else was living in the fantasy - not the Don!

Let's not move too quickly past chapter 18 - the Opera Buffa chapter just yet...I'm interested in what Stendhal is saying about the mirror reflecting the sky, the mud in the road. In the same breath he says that "passion such as Mathilde's is purely imaginary." Do you still think that is true? Does a mirror reflect reality? Doesn't it depend on the angle of the mirror? This reminds me of a verse...(where does it come from - RLS?)

"Two men looked out from prison bars
One saw mud, the other stars."

Will Mathilde and Julien ever see things from the same angle?

HATS, just briefly, in answer to your question.

Haiti and Santo Domingo occupy the island of Hispaniola, the second largest island in the Antilles, which is located between Cuba to the west and Puerto Rico to the east.

Haiti, colonized by the French, occupies 1/3 of the island on the western side; Santo Domingo 2/3 on the eastern side. Columbus discovered the island in 1492; settlement was begun during his second voyage a year late.

Haiti and Santo Domingo have a different history. Sant Domingo is prosperous- thanks to the tourist trade, Haiti desperately poor.

As someone in the group has pointed out, The Red and the Black is very much about contrasts. Eloise wrote (#574) about contrasting emotions in the love-hate relationship between Mathilde and Julien. Joan followed up (#576) by suggesting that there is “a very, very fine line between love and hate”.

Mathilde so easily crosses back and forth over the fine line separating her love and hate for Julien that it makes me wonder about the authenticity of her emotions. Are they spontaneous or is she forcing herself to “feel”, because it is so hard for her to feel anything about anyone? Living in the sensory-deprivation chambers of the convent and Hotel de La Mole, is she desperate to experience emotion – any emotion? Does that explain why she’s fascinated by love affairs that are spiced up with danger and death?

As with love and hate, there is often just a fine line separating life from death. Mathilde seems more than willing to cross over that line, too. Trouble is, death won’t allow her to cross back over to the side of life.

There is a well known Jewish toast, “La’chaim”, which means, To Life! If you listen closely, you might notice that Jews are careful to pronounce it “L’chaim”, because LA'chaim – To Life – sounds too similar to LO chaim, which means "not life." LIFE or NOT LIFE – a stark contrast!

If Stendhal really had been “fond of Mathilde”, he could have arranged for her to have a chance encounter in the park with the local rabbi. After exchanging obligatory pleasantries, the rabbi would intuit (it's his business) that Mathilde is flirting with death. He would say to her, in his most grandfatherly voice, "Mathilde, you have it in your power to end your life and perhaps the life of another but – know this – death is the final act in your play. Prefer life, Mathilde, wherein hope resides. Consider most carefully, the beauty and fragility of life."

La’chaim!

Traude, thank you. Thank you for the Geography lesson. I know a little about the sad history of Haiti. Now you have put me in the right place on the globe. I would love to read a book about Haiti in Reading Around the World.

So far the movie presents a little love story -- misses how conflicted Julien is about his background and his new circumstances.

Now, that's disappointing. Kidsal, the books are always better, aren't they?

one mirror sees the man as beautiful and loves him
another sees the man as frightful and hates him
but it is always the same being who produces the impressions.

M deSade

In the first book, chapter XV the intro is in medieval French . Even back then the French knew of intrigue. This verse portends all that is to happen:..."Love in Latin is amor;

From which love comes death,

But, before that, care that gnaws,

Grief,tears, traps, crimes, remorse."

We were warned, even back then. But even so we have continued to attach ourselves to Julien. For better or worse, he is our man. Notice I say man. Somewhere along the line he has transformed from a callow lad to a young man. Indeed a troubled young man, but still, no more a boy.

Julien does foolish things- His ambition for money and position is tempered by passion and desire for love (Whatever he thinks love is). So how can we not root for him. Even if he will be the losing team in the end, he will be OUR losing team.

Judy

I will be away at an Elder Hostel and a visit to my son for the next 10 days. I will miss you all and will rejoin you again on May 28th. I will try to find a computer to keep up with your posts.

Judy

You have a great time, Judy! What is the Elderhostel program you are taking? I've always planned to look into them - there are so many interesting ones. This morning I flew down here to Memphis to visit my son and his growing family.

Am typing this with three year old Brett babbling instead of taking his nap. We'll see how this works out. We'll be looking forward to hearing how your visit and the program went. We'll be here, rooting for Julien, rooting for love -grief, tears, the works!! And oh, remorse too.

Kidsal - it seems you are getting the love story - without the intrigue that is driving the story and causing so much tension between the lovers. That's why you need to read the book now...

Traudee- were you surprised to hear Julien imitate the Creole lingo of the maid servant from Santo Domingo? I thought it was the Haitians who spoke the Creole...

Zany - I am quite interested in the mirror image - M. de Sade's mirror reflects the same man as both beautiful, and frightening at the same time. This sounds like Mathilde - whose mirror reflects different images of Julien, depending on the time of day. Does he frighten her because he is beautiful, or is he beautiful because he frightens her, removing the boredom that haunts her days.

Knox - yes, I think that explains why she is fascinated with the love affair that is fraught with danger - and even death. It remains to be seen how "fond of Mathilde" Stendhal is in the coming pages - no rabbi in this park - maybe she'll have a chance encounter with the Abbe Pirard - who will advise her to leave Julien to the Church and marry Croisenois. That should be enough to drive the two together again.

But how to explain her immediate remorse? Doesn't she really want and need that which only Julien can give her? I thought the broken vase, Madame de la Mole's cherished vase was significant - I wonder if you did too? The vase is broken, the flower beds trampled, the glass pane smashed...isn't it too late to go back to the girl she was before?

And why can't Julien read her? All he had to do was climb the ladder and she fell into his arms. What further proof does he need of her committment? - she's cut off half of her hair to prove herself to him! How can he fall for her story of thoughts of love for both Croisenois and de Luz after she's spent the night - two nights with Julien? No wonder she loses patience with him - and respect.

I must admit that I am confused about the politics and goals of the plotting group the Marquis de la Mole belongs to. JoanP asks in the questions above, "Why would the Church get involved in a battle to save the Monarchy?" So is this a group who is plotting how to save the monarchy?

Whatever the group is plotting, the marquis has been planning this for some time. The marquis knew his man when he saw Julien's talents. We now see the purpose of the marquis in dressing Julian in the blue suit and the games that were played. It was not sex games after all! In fact, it is something right up Julien's alley, in a way. Julien will be a spy!

Julien goes to the meeting with the marquis to listen in, write what is said, and, with the marquis, condense it down to a few pages. Then Julien is to memorize the words and deliver them to some duke. His life will be on the line. This plot is big. Enemies abound. Julien could be killed.

Oh, mon dieu, if Mathilde finds out about Julien's role as a spy, she will fall in love with him all over again! This is right out of the life of Queen Marguerite!!

- I don't know Marni - if it is a plot to protect the Monarchy - or save the interests of the Church. There seem to be high ranking members of the Clergy and the Aristocracy present at the meeting. We need to look closer at the proposals that Julien is taking to Duke _____

It all happened so quickly, didn't it? First Julien makes plans to go to Languedoc and then the Marquis tells him he has other plans for him in the north country. And suddenly Julien is being introduced to this small powerful group.

Do you think the Marquis knows anything of the affair going on under his roof? How could he not know is a better question? I worry that the Marquis' experiment is drawing to an end - and so is Julien's time at l'hotel de la Mole.

Joan, I too thought Madame de la Mole's cherished vase was significant. Symbolism abounds!

Here are the clues; it was "ugly" (but only in the eyes of the kids, Mathilde and Julien); it was "old" (signifying tradition); it was "blue" (signifying royalty); it had originally been a gift to the Duke of Orleans by the Dutch.

Ok, this ugly, old, blue vase was inadvertantly broken when Julien handed a seditious pamphlet to an aristocrat. It looks to me that the broken vase symbolizes the future destruction of the old-order monarchy by the Marquis de La Mole and his seditious pals.

I know I'm getting a little ahead of our scheduled reading here, but I think Stendhal's contemporaries, reading this "Japanese Vase" chapter would have guessed what he was getting at.

There were several Dukes of Orleans but I found only one whose relationship with the Dutch might have merited a gift from them. That Duke was Louis-Phillipe who became King of France after the upcoming 1830 Revolution . Charles X abdicated and Louis-Phillipe became a new kind of king, a "Constitutional Monarch".

Read Louis-Phillipe's bio on wikipedia and see if you agree with me. That's a handsome red and black uniform he's wearing in that painting, don't you think? Would you like to add the future king, Louis-Phillipe, to the list of "Interpretations of the title"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Philippe_of_France

I think I must disagree with the conventional explanations of what this novel's title means. I don't think Red signifies Julien's grand passion, the military. I don't think Black symbolizes the clerical coat he's wearing in his alternate career choice.

The Red and the Black is a man . (See his portrait at the Wikipedia link in post #617.) He is a man of unusual courage, integrity and honour who became King of the French. Stendhal's title reveals to us that Julien is not the main character in this story. This novel is about the kind of man that Julien, in his more rational moments, aspired to be.

Stendhal, perhaps, wished he had been a man like Julien; he wrote a story about Julien, who wished he could be a man like Louis-Phillipe.

Just a guess.

Knox: Re the Duke of Orleans who received the vase.....

I was thinking Stendahl was referring to Louis Philippe Joseph II, Duke of Orléans (April 13, 1747 – November 6, 1793), called Philippe Égalité. He was regent for awhile. This Duke of Orleans was earlier and the time period might fit better because the Madame's great-aunt had given the vase to her. Also, it must have been stories of this duke that Julien had grown up hearing along with stories of Napoleon.

Per Wikipedia, Louis Philippe Joseph II, Duke of Orléans "was a member of a cadet branch of the House of Bourbon, the dynasty then ruling France. He actively supported the French Revolution, but was nonetheless guillotined during the Reign of Terror. His son Louis-Philippe became King of France in the July Revolution of 1830......

.....The part he played during the summer of 1789 is one of the most debated points in the history of the French Revolution. The royal court accused him of being at the bottom of every popular movement, and saw the "gold of Orléans" as the cause of the Reveillon riot and the storming of the Bastille (mirroring the subsequent belief held by the Jacobins that everything opposing them relied on the "gold of Pitt the Younger"). His hatred of Marie Antoinette, the previous disgrace at the court, and his liberalism (alongside his friendship with Duport and Choderlos de Laclos), all seem to point towards his involvement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Philippe_II%2C_duc_d%27Orl%C3%A9ans

Marni, you've pointed out that Louis-Phillipe was probably too young to have given the vase to Madame's great-aunt. I think you're right. This morning I revisited my research pages. It wasn't the Red and Black uniformed King Louis-Phillipe who had a connection with the Dutch - it was one of his ancestors.

Drilling down through several Dukes of Orléans I discovered Philippe II, (August 2, 1674 – December 23, 1723). He was Duke of Orléans (1701–1723) and was Regent of France from 1715 to 1723.

[1] That time period (1715-1723) seems about right for the vase to have been given to Madame's great-aunt.

[2] The titles match. "Duke of Orleans when he was Regent"

[3] The vase "was a present from the Dutch" and here's the Dutch connection. Philippe II formed an alliance with England, Austria, and the Netherlands . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II%2C_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans

Knox: Ahah! Your Duke of Orleans, Philippe II, (August 2, 1674 – December 23, 1723) sounds like the man! He was called "the Regent." As you pointed out, Madame de La Mole says of her beloved vase: "It was old Japan....it came to me from my great-aunt the Abbess of Chelles; it was a present from the Dutch to the Duke of Orleans when he was Regent and he gave it to his daughter ..."

I read the Wikipedia article in your link. Philippe II was quite a guy. "The regent had great qualities, both brilliant and solid, which were spoilt by an excessive taste for pleasure. His dissolute manners found many imitators, and the regency was one of the most corrupt periods in French history. Philippe was a professed atheist who boasted to read the satirical works of François Rabelais inside a Bible binding during mass, and liked to hold orgies even on religious high holidays."

I was able to get on for a few minutes this morning before a full day with these little ones down here in Memphis. The best news of the day is that they MIGHT be moving to Richmond, VA, which is a much shorter commute from Arlington than it is to Memphis! Today we squeezed in a Brownie Fly-up ceremony, a ballet and tap recital and finally, an evening at Chuckie Cheeze. Is there anyone here who hasn't had that experience?

I feel we are really getting closer to understanding the period in which Stendhal wrote the Red and the Black. In chapter 22 he (Stendhal) interrupts the story to tell us :

"Half the readers will be mortally offended at the politics here, and the other half....will be bored."

"If your characters don't talk politics, says the publisher, then they are no longer Frenchmen of 1830, and your book is no longer a mirror, as you claim."

So before you throw up your hands and say this is all too much complicated history for me, let's make an effort - as Knox and Marni have done - to untangle the politics and the very puzzling notes that Julien finds himself taking. Thanks Knox and Marni for bringing us the insights and links - they really help us with the historical political intrigue of the time before we go back to Stendahl's story line.

>Knox, you describe the Japanese vase as blue - signifying royalty. I immediately thought of that blue sofa where Madame de la Mole holds forth - where Mathilde sits in her place with her mother whenever she wishes to convey she is back in the fold, espousing her mother's politics. Knox has pointed out that the vase is " old" - that both Mathilde and Julien despise the vase - despise the old politics by extension. Knox, I'll bet Stendhal's contemporaries know what he is getting at here too!

I'm beginning to see that the conspiracy in which Julien finds himself might not be an attempt to overthrow the Monarchy, but rather to overthrow the Monarch who sits on the throne right now - replacing him with the Constitutional Monarch who came to the throne in 1830. Thanks for this information, Marni and Knox. Hadn't we heard the Marquis speaking about the necessity of two-party rule? I remember underlining that when I read it - it is all beginning to make sense now.

When you consider Louis Philippe Joseph II, Duke of Orléans Louis Philippe Joseph II, Duke of Orléans "was a member of a cadet branch of the House of Bourbon, the dynasty then ruling France. actively supported the French Revolution - I can see where Julien would have supported this cause as well.

How do these churchmen present at the meeting fit in? The Church has never been restored of the land confiscated during the Revolution. The present Monarch has not done so. Wouldn't it be in the Church's interest to get someone else on the throne who will do that.
What is the plan Julien is to deliver? To " the north country" And who do you think it will be taken to?

I'm not giving up but, among other things had a WREX deadline, a local book group meeting earlier in the week, plus projects still pending. French history is not a problem for me. We do need to know some generalities to understand the actions of the protagonists.
Good thing I've spared you the Republican Calendar ! and even a limited timeline for Napoleon Bonaparte ! hahahah

JOAN, I admire your resources and inventiveness. The grands must love to have you there. Let's hope the move to Richmond materializes (though it would be hard moving again). You could get there within hours, if I remember distances corrtectly.

JUDY, have a wonderful time with Elderhostel and visit with your son. We will miss you.

For the rest of us, alors, en avant !

In Time Magazine today -- Khaled Hosseini (The Kite Runner) has published another book about Afghanistan -- A Thousand Splendid Suns. Reviewer said that he thought it was better than his first. Also Kite Runner is being made into a movie to be out in the fall.

Today I’m taking a step back and trying to view this novel from a broader perspective. My theory - that "The Red and the Black" is a man (Louis-Phillipe, the 1830 King of the French) - got me thinking about Julien – the man, and his author, Stendhal – the man.

It occurs to me that, among the many themes interwoven in this complicated story, there is a palpable sense of Julien’s loneliness. He’s encountered many people in his adventures and interacted with them but I think he has only one real friend, the wood merchant, Fouqué.

Julien’s creator, Stendhal, had many acquaintances, some of which were very important to him but, if I read his diaries correctly, I find that he had only one true friend in his life, his sister. Stendhal’s prickly personality got in the way of his forming friendships. I think Stendhal was lonely – and I think he wrote a novel about a lonely man.

~ ~ ~

Just one more thing about the title, and then I'll leave that detour and get back on the main road. Stendhal originally titled the book, "Julien". When he renamed it "The Red and the Black", isn't it plausible to think the title still referred to a man but to a truly heroic and more noble person than Julien was?

I see some of you are puzzling through the politics in Chapters 12 and 13 too. It appears as though what is occurring is the exact opposite of what I had guessed! LOL! I should not be surprised! I had suggested that the Marquis may be a closet liberal. However, it appears as though he is a person trying to protect himself and his group from the rise of the liberals. I need to reread your posts and digest this more tomorrow.

LAURA, the confusion arises when we understand "Liberals" in the way we use the term here. In Stendhal's France, the Liberals were Republicans who wanted to keep the benefits that came to them due to the 1789 Revolution; and were against the monarchy.

Stendhal himself was a Liberal and Julien a Bonapartist, which amounts to the same thing. However, Julien had to hide his admiration for Napoleon because the Marquis was a Royalist of the extreme variety = an Ultra. As the Marquis said, there were two prties, the Ultras, which was his party, and the Republicans, who wanted no part of the restored Bourbon dynasty.

And that brings us to Charles X. He became king in 1824. However, the political climate had changed by then : the people no longer wanted an absolute king, and Charles adamantly refused to become a constitutional monarch. He resigned in the Revolution of 1830.

I believe the events in our book occur in the period between 1824 and 1830. There's plotting and intrigue on a large scale.

Yes, there is confusion also because Napoleon changed his own stance radically - from ardent Republican, celebrated General, Consul for Life (1799), to Emperor of the French by plebiscite (!!), intent on establishing his own dynasty. One monarchy downed (in 1789), another created.

Knox - I too see Fouqué as Julien's friend - but in a strange way, I see Mathilde as someone Julien can speak freely, when he CAN speak to her. While his eyes find her beautiful, I think that he is attracted to her mind, her ability to read and reason - even if her conclusions go against her own family background. To me, I see Julien taking such great risks to be with her because he is lonely and on some level, she is his soul mate. Does anyone else see her this way?

LauraD, I'm so thankful we have this group to work our way through the confusion of the politics of Julien/Stendhal's world! I agree with Traudee - we have to understand that the "Liberals" were those who were revolting against the Monarchy and that might put the Marquis into that category if he is in on the plot to replace Charles X. But Traudee, you see the Marquis as a Royalist - an Ultra...Do you see the Ultras plotting in this secret meeting to keep Charles on the throne with their plan for an armed party within France? If so, I don't see how we can call the Marquis a "liberal." (Personally, I see the Marquis as a closet Republican - not his wife, the Marquise, however.)

The importance of the clergy seems obvious in the plot, but hey, what of the Bishop of Agde's proposal to take down all of Paris? No wonder the Marquis was nervous about including his proposal in the secret note!

Traude and JoanP: Thank you for helping us understand the politics of the situation. Can you tell us what is going on regarding the other countries mentioned? It sounds as if the marquis' plotting group is trying to get monitary and military assistance from Great Britain, Russia, and Austria. It seems that William Pitt's death has created a political change so that no more money will be forthcoming from Great Britain and that will effect Russian and Austria. What is happening here?

"I see Julien taking such great risks to be with her because he is lonely and on some level, she is his soul mate. Does anyone else see her this way?"

ROFL.

The reference to St. Roch in Chapter 23 in the Bishop of Agde's fiery speech to the assembled - asking " the Paris didn't dare breathe under Bonaparte says, "Ask any artillerymen of St. Roch" -

I have a footnote here -

"Near the church of St. Roch near the Tuileries, Napoleon's artillerymen fired the whiff of grapeshot" which brought the French Revolution to an end and established Napoleon as dictator (Oct. 5, 1795)

When I saw mention of St. Roch I sat right up - because I know St. Roch. When in Paris, we stay in the Hotel de Londres-St. Honore, which is a 500 year old hotel separated from St. Roch's church by approximately 20 feet. We always request a room off the busy street, facing the old church - usually we are directly opposite a gargoyle...
Here is the church Stendhal is referring to. You can see the hotel to the left of the church.
In the hotel lobby, there is a huge framed print of the very battle Stendhal speaks about that took place on the church steps on Oct. 5, 1795.

Marni - that's such a good question. It seems that Julien is going to be going off as a courier with the special delivery note in his head. I get the impression that England is strapped and may not be interested in funding a sustained revolt against the Royalists. I'm wondering where Louis-Philippe is spending his time in exile. Will follow that lead and try to get back tonight...

Right now am off with a 2 yr old, a nearly 4 yr old and almost 6 yr old to see Shrek3 - has anyone seen it? Will be back with a review!

ROFL - glad that got some reaction, Zany!

Note the red and black uniform, Knox!

The prince (1773-1793) Louis-Philippe d'Orléans was a close relative of King Louis XVI, the House of Orléans being a branch of the House of Bourbon. As a youth, Louis-Philippe was open to new ideas, as was the rest of his family. When the Revolution broke out, he enrolled in the revolutionary army, becoming one of its young generals. His father, called Philippe-Egalité, even voted for the death sentence during the trial of Louis XVI (Philippe-Egalité would himself be guillotined several months later). After the execution of Louis XVI, Louis-Philippe deserted the army and fled abroad. There he married a princess from the house of Bourbon-Sicily, the future good Queen Marie-Amélie (niece of Marie-Antoinette, and aunt to Empress Marie-Louise!) who would bear him eight children.

1830
After twenty years of wandering from the United States to the northern tip of Norway, Louis-Philippe returned to France where the Restoration (1814-1830) placed Louis XVI's two brothers on the throne (Louis XVIII, followed by Charles X). In July 1830, another pro-republican revolution broke out, but the legislature preferred a constitutional monarchy - Louis-Philippe, as duke of Orléans, was offered the crown in exchange for honouring a charter that limited his powers. He took the title of 'King of the French' as opposed to 'King of France'Louis-Philippe in exile
I realize this doesn't answer your question, Marni - more research is needed!

Joan, what a fantastic picture of the church and the hotel.

I am sooo busy right now, but I am reading every day. Great posts, I wish I had more time to spend on this discussion.

Enjoy your little ones, they grow too fast.

Just looking at the pictures of that hotel and St. Roch's make me what to go back, Éloïse

Marni, I'm thinking of Germany as a leading candidate to supply France with the needed aid to sustain a revolution after reading this article - Franco-German Rapprochement ...also considering that Julien was sent off to Strasbourg after delivering the message from the secret meeting.

More on Shrek3 tomorrow after the flight home...

After over one week away (my husband was on vacation and we were at the camping), where I thought I would have the time to read more than at home, I am back and I didn't read more than half an hour a day. So I am not as far as I was hoping. In the part I had the time to read, Julien seems to play a game to bring Mme de Rênal to love him. When he finally succeeds, he is hurt to see her trying to hide her sentiments, because doing that she looks cold to him.

After the reading of some of your posts, I am anxious to get the same place than all of you are. I would be tempted to skip all those pages, but it wouldn't be fair, and also I will not understand all the "cheminement" of Julien.

I hope I will be able to read more in the week coming.

Whatever the Marquis de La Mole was, he certainly was not a democrat. He's in self-preservation mode, trying hard to keep his property, fortune and privileges. He might think a "constitutional monarchy" is best for him and France, but when he spoke to his co-conspirators he sounded pessimistic about the long-term viability of kings.

"In fifty years there will be nothing in Europe but Presidents of Republics, not one King left. And with those four letters K-I-N-G, go the priests and the gentlemen. I can see nothing but candidates paying court to draggletailed majorities."

~ ~ ~

pompadour, Julien's relationship with Madame de Rênal plays an important part in this story. Keep in mind his first conversation with her. "I will need your protection, Madame."

MARNI, and excellent question.
JOAN, at that time there was no united Germany, but a confederation of 300 (three hundred) states :
Prussia; the Kingdom of Saxony; multiple Duchies and Grandduchies- comparable to the city states in medieval Italy; Bavaria; Wuerttemberg; Hesse-Darmstadt; Nassau; the Rhenish Palatinate; the Grandduchy of Frankfurt, and many others.

Austria under the Habsburgs was among the most mportant nations. Napoleon had shrewdly married the Emperor's daughter to "neutralize" her father, his foe.

After Napoleon's defeat, five European powers congregated at the Congress of Vienna (1814-15): the United Kingdom, Tsarist Russia, Prussia, Austria -- and France, under the chairmanship of Austrian statesman Prince Metternich.

Actually, the diplomatic representatives of the four victorious powers had hoped to exclude France, but its foreign minister, Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord, skillfully managed to get access to the inner councils.
The Congress of Vienna brought about a redesign of the political map of Europe. I'll try to post a link later.

Traude, I'm glad you're here to help with the historical background!

France, 1830: the Monarchy is in bad odour; the titled nobility fears another uprising of the lower classes, who are always grumpy about being under-employed and over-taxed.

Democratic ideas are in the ascendancy but that’s an untidy form of government – all those “commoners” demanding to have control over their own lives. Better to concentrate power in the hands of a few “superior” and royal persons. Did I read that right; were those the sentiments expressed by the cardinal and the foreign minister, in the “large room of a distinctly gloomy aspect”?

Rome and Royalty; a well-dressed and perfumed couple, chosen by God to rule on earth. Did the other conspirators agree? Ultra or Liberal; which party has your sympathy in this run-up to the 1830 revolution?

“ Monarchy can easily be debunked, but watch the faces, mark well the debunkers. These are the men whose taproot in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire mere equality they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.” – C.S. Lewis

Home Sweet Home - though I miss my babies already. The boys called when I was killing time in the airport in St. Louis and Lindsay called at home in Arlington a few minutes ago, asking why I lived here and not there... It's so hard, but we are going back for a birthday party in June.

Traudee, I knew the mention of Germany would get our resident expert's input on Germany. Thank you. I've been trying to follow Julien's itinerary following the secret meeting at an undisclosed location in Paris. (This map might help - if you can see it. Can you use the little magnifier and then scroll to the right and north? Traudee, can you locate Mainz?)
Map - Paris, Metz, Mainz, Strasbourg The Marquis took him to "an isolated country house some distance from Paris" - (Julien supposed his hosts there were priests) -

From here, he had a rapid, monotonous trip to an inn several leagues beyond Metz where he met Geronimo, the singer, on his way to a performance in Mainz. (He also "met" the priest, Castanède here.)

From this inn he arrived without further adventures "to the residence of the great personage" to deliver the message. I have a footnote here -

"According to Stendhal himself, the great personage Julien encounters is at Mainz, and he is an ambassador, but he is vague enough to be now a duke, now a prince, and now a great statesman."

For some reason, the great personage directs him to Strasbourg for two weeks before returning to Mainz.

For the life of me, I can't figure from these clues who the great personage was, and whether Julien was carrying a message to this "ambassador" requesting foreign aid for the plan he outlined to him in the out of the way Kaffeehause

There is so much in chapter 23 that we have not touched upon - I would like us to linger for another day instead of moving on to Strasbourg (chapter 24) as planned. Will change the schedule accordingly.

Madame Pomadour, so glad you haven't given up - this should give you more time to finish Book I! Julien does seem to be playing games with Madame de Rênal, doesn't he? I don't think he can ever consider her anything more than a dalliance - she will always be his superior and his pride can't stand that, don't you think?

Knox - if this chapter is all about the Clergy regaining lost land - I wonder why the minister Nerval was invited? And why was the Marquis present? Why, why, why?

Did you notice that the Marquis had to work through the 26 pages of notes Julien had taken to come up with the four that Julien would memorize? He's not happy with the results either. He's "disheartened" as my translator describes it. What do you think the message was that Julien recited to the important personage? Obviously he is asking for aid - to fight the coming revolution...

We don't seem to be privvy to Julien's thoughts on what he is recording, do we? Don't you wonder how he reacted to the Bishop of Agde as he told of the one mistake the British made in not killing off Napoleon when they had the chance? Is Julien taking sides on this issue? Does anyone take the Bishop of Agde's proposal seriously - his plan to take down all of Paris? I can't believe that is in the final four pages!

Knox - usually the conservative, I think I have to vote for the liberals at this point.

Welcome home, JOAN!

Sorry, Mainz is not shown on the map because it is farther to the east. Here is a link and I hope it works. Click on the map and scrolle until it is larger. Mainz and Wiesbaden are clearly visible.

http://www.rudesheim-rhine.info/z-mainz

I'm so glad the link worked.

Mainz began as a Roman encampment, founded under General Drusus in 13 BC, and called Castrum Moguntiacum.

High on the left on the map is Koblenz, also founded by the Romans in 9 BC as Castrum ad Confluentes = strategically located at the confluence of the Rhine and Moselle rivers.
Both cities and others, also along the Moselle river, notably Trier= Augusta Treverorum , were Roman fortifictions, part of the protective wall the Romans built, called Limes Romanus.

The area between Rüdesheim and Mainz is very scenic and popular with tourists; the hills on both banks of the Rhine are dotted with the ruins of old castles and steep vineyards. The Rhineland is famous for its Rhine wine and Moselle wine, Bavaria for its beer.

A piece of history I learned in grammar school in Koblenz, as told by Miss Lambert, our teacher.
On his march east to conquer Russia, Napoleon stopped in Koblenz and had an inscription put on a fountain commemorating his passing through "on his victorious campaign". We know the outcome was defeat.

One Russian general pursued the fleeing, exhausted remainder of the Grande Armée all the way to Koblenz and was told of Napoleon's inscription. He left this comment : gesehen und gelesen = seen an read.

Dozens of images of the Rhine Valley here

Joan, I haven't given up on Julien. I have been very busy over the weekend, like everybody else. I have an appt. tomorrow. I am also involved in another book discussion. Please excuse my dull excuses.

Eloise, I can't wait to see that link.

Thanks to everyone for all the great political information! I think I need to read further in the book. I don't think we have enough information about what exactly the Marquis is doing. I made assumptions about what the Marquis was doing based on the people who joined him at this meeting (the one during which Julien took notes). I took them to be from his class, which, traditionally, as Traude has said, would be Ultra people. I thought that if he was going to be doing something contrary to what one would expect of him, he would be meeting with people outside of his class and assumed political affiliation. That's why I had given up on him being a closet Republican. Time will tell...

Laura, I found this Wikipedia link interesting about the political history of France at that time: THE BOURBON RESTORATION

Eloise, I am chuckling. That is the exact article I keep reading and trying to understand! LOL! I am printing it now so that I can keep referring to it. Maybe I will even do some highlighting! LOL! Thank you!

Eloise: The article about the Bourbon Restoration is so interesting!! it even explains why some might want Paris to be destroyed, the center of the liberal press. I must admit my head is whirling! My goodness, France certainly went through wild times in the 18th and 19th centuries!

Well, our Julien is in the midst of it all, wrapped up in conspiracy, and a spy to pass on important information. His life is most definitely in danger and well he knows it. There is a traitor in the conspirators' group! Word is out about Julien's journey to the prince (duke?).

I found Julien to be a natural hero. He is the man he aspired to be. He is courageous, cunning, and intelligent (although he is thinking of Mathilde most of the time). Ah, he could have served Napoleon well! Dressed as a fop and with false ID, and with no papers on him to be found because he had memorized his message, Julien is able to elude capture, avoid the plot against his life by being "asphyxiated" with laudunum by the abbe Castanede, of all people, and deliver his message.

After his derring do, which is like a scene out of The Three Musketeers, Julien receives a reply to his message. Stendahl writes a very anticlimactic ending to this harrowing escapade.

But, at least Julien is armed with the 53 letters from his friend, the Prince Korasoff!

ÉLOÏSE, an excellent link, especially the section "The Fall of the Bourbon Restoration 1827-1830".

Stll, our focus is Julien, I agree with LAURA. Let's see how he discharges his responsibility.

My head is spinning too, Marni. I keep watching for some reaction from Julien about what he hears as he takes the notes at the meeting. Surely he has some reaction? Maybe he's in his "secretarial mode" and has trained himself not to think. You're right - he does know he's in danger though.

Who did you think would try to intercept the message before he reached the duke/ambassador, prince in Mainz? (Thank you so much for the map, Traudee) I guess I wasn't expecting Castanède (the Jesuit). He wasn't even at the meeting, was he? I'm supposing someone (who) sent him to find the message, little suspecting that Julien had it memorized. I don't think he recognizes the former seminarian. I hate to think what would have happened to Julien if it had been known he carried the message in his head!

I thought it was interesting that Julien traveled in his blue costume - as a "fop"- But I was reminded of the last line of this chapter (24) when you mentioned that our Julien "could have served Napoleon well" -

"And the Jesuits of Strasbourg (Jesuits again!)...never dreamed of setting a watch on Julien, who with his cross and his blue greatcoat, had the look of a youthful soldier much attached to his own personal appearance."

Do any of you feel, as I do, that it is just a bit too much of a coincidence that Julien's "good friend" Geronimo turns up at crucial moments? - maybe I'm getting too suspicious of everyone, friend and foe alike! I did believe when he entertained the de Rênals back in Verrières that Geronima was apolitical...

The article on the Bourbon Restoration is much appreciated, Éloïse! Thank you. I had to smile at your comment, LauraD - there is a lot to absorb. Maybe it would be helpful to pull out ideas that help, rather than get swamped with learning all that history at once.

I now understand the comment the Marquis made about the importance of "two parties" - now I know what he was referring to -

"Louis XVIII's restoration to the throne in 1814 was effected largely through the support of Napoleon's former foreign minister Talleyrand who convinced the victorious Allied Powers of the desirability of a Bourbon restoration. Louis was forced to grant a written constitution, the Charter of 1814, which guaranteed a bicameral legislature, with a hereditary/appointive Chamber of Peers and an elected Chamber of Deputies. The franchise was limited to men with considerable property holdings."

LauraD - I see important clergymen at this meeting, as well as ministers and property and title holders such as the Marquis. It seems the plan is to support the status quo against a liberal revolution. Where do you think Julien stands - for or agin?

Hats, we've slowed the pace a bit before heading to Strasbourg in Chapter 24 tomorrow. I know you aren't that far behind. We've got the lights on for you! How about the rest of you? How are you doing?

I use Google Earth to track Julien. Are you familiar with that terrific map tool?

It's a 3D map of the world that you can download (free) at this website. http://earth.download.googlepages.com/

The map has been constructed of satellite and aerial photos. You can program it to provide lots of detail (roads, bridges, rivers, towns, etc.) or very little detail.

Park the Google Earth icon on your desktop and when you want to take a trip, click on it and the earth's globe materializes, giving you an astronaut's view of the earth from about 10,000 miles up. Type in the city you want to visit and the globe rotates until you're directly overhead and then zooms you down to about 12 miles above the city. You can then zoom down even closer and move the map around to pinpoint whatever features you want to examine more closely.

For instance, remember awhile back when Mathilde asked Julien how high was the hill on which sat the fortress at Besancon? Julien and I didn't know, so I "flew" over to Besancon on Google Earth. As I hovered over the city I put my cursor on the citadel and read the elevation at the bottom of the screen; 1,122 feet.

You'll be able to find your own house on the map, too. Yes, you can zoom in that close! Visit Koblenz, Traude, and see if it's changed much since your childhood. Try it. You'll like it!

Knox -- thanks for the link to the satellite pictures. Had seen them in another form, but this is great!

Thank you for the link to Google Earth. I didn't know about it. I am downloading now. I am not computer savvy. I hope my Google Earth appears. Will I see Strasburg?

JoanP, thank you for keeping the light on. I am coming around the mountain. There is quite a bit of politics in chapters 22 and 23. I am completely lost. I will go back and look for Traude's helpful historical facts.

I feel like Julien is acting as a spy??? It seems like he's getting involved with some kind of conspiracy. When the Japanese Porcelain vase was broken, I felt shattered too. I didn't know what to make of that situation either.

Marni, I am going back to read your posts too. You always are helpful with the historical background. Boy, do I need help. I will not get discouraged just continue along with all of you who are knowledgable about French Politics. Eloise, are you here too?

Hello Hats, yes I am here and unfortunately I am not familiar with France's politics, I am learning here too. My interest in politics is minimal to say the least.

Julien knows that outside of religion and the military his chances of getting out of his low birth is nil. The poor man is torn between his loyalty to the church and his loyalty to the government in power whether it is a Monarchy or a Republic. He complains of the High Class because he can see through their actions and at the same time he admires and loves the perks. He must know he will never be able to bridge the gap, yet he envys them.

The Ultras are flogging a dead horse because we know that civilization's march forward means making a clean slate of the old order. After all Monarchy abused of their immense wealth leaving the peasants and the rabble to starve and revolt. The whole world was on a Democratic surge thanks to America's success with Democracy and Europeans wanted that.

"Why would the Church get involved in a battle to save the Monarchy?" The Monarchy and the Church were allies, they fed on each other. I don't feel that Julien is truly in favor of the Monarchy, after all was he not born and raised in the lower class, his clothes and his photographic memory does not make him an Aristocrat, it is an accident of birth. Stendhal here can't know how the lower class felt and behaved, he was not one of them and I don't think he portrays it in a convincing way.

I down loaded Google Earth and will try and use it, thanks Knox.

Joan asks, “Do you think it a coincidence that Julien runs into Prince Korasoff in Strasbourg? Why was Julien sent here?”

I think Julien was sent to Strasbourg to run into Prince Korasoff, but why he was supposed to run into the Prince is what I am not sure about. Once again, I was chuckling, this time about the “copied-out love-letters.” Could his meeting with the Prince have been some sort of test of Julien’s depth of feelings for and commitment to Mathilde? Julien is offered advice on how to woo her, and at the same time, is offered the hand of one of the Prince’s cousins.

Bonjours, mes amis,
As you wade through politics of the meeting in chapters 22 and 23, hats,Hats - please do keep a close eye on Julien. I found him strangely detached as a secretary taking notes would be. No flinching, no reaction whatever when he hears of the plot to finance an army to fight back another revolution against the king. Take a look at the king's minister, Nerval. I didn't trust him, especially when he carefully eyed Julien in his little pocket mirror (why was he carrying a mirror? gads!) Note too that the Jesuits are mentioned a number of times attempting to intercept the messenger who emerged from the secret meeting. There was someone at that meeting who alerted them of his mission.

And above all, let us know whether you think Julien is being used - a spy, or a courier. I'm thinking that he is expendable - in danger, once the message is delivered. No sense in taking chances - others at the meeting might have considered him a spy too.

Éloïse - Stendhal didn't spend too much of his time portraying the lower class, did he? Except for Julien, who really doesn't fit any profile. He seems to have some sort of charisma that attracted both men and women of the upper classes, who all had a hand in molding him. But you're right, he can't shake the fact that he isn't really one of them - and attracts both envy and suspicion from those who come into contact with him. He seems to be all about ambition. Without the success of the present system under Charles X, all his work has been for nothing. Where would he be if the revolution succeeded?

Wouldn't the Church want to see the revolution succeed? Their land holdings have never been restored to them under the present system.

Why do you think Julien was sent to Strasbourg? Wasn't it fortunate that he ran into some old friends to hang out with, Laura? Maybe the Prince is just another Geronimo - and the coincidences are part of the story that will never be explained. Right now, like you, I get the feeling that he was supposed to run into the Prince, and am hoping for the reason to become clearer in the coming pages as the plot plays out.

Knox - Google Earth is amazing, isn't it? I think that Stendhal just might recognize old Strasbourg if he visited today. It might be important to note that Strasbourg is and was a great Jesuit university town. Julien has been sent to spend his time surrounded by Jesuits. Is this important? Remember that Castanède and fellow Jesuits were trying to intercept the messenger to the important personage. This is getting quite exciting, isn't it?

I don't think that Prince Korasoff was the "great personage" to whom Julien was meant to deliver his message. Prince Korasoff was Julien's friend from London. I think he is here to add to the love story, not to the conspiracy story. Korasoff is handsome, confident, and an experienced lover, full of ideas for Julien to succeed in his love affair with Mathilde (although Julien does not tell the prince her real name.) I think both this prince and the opera singer add to the humor of the story.

Julien is supposed to see another prince, who apparently is also a duke, to whom Julien is to deliver his verbal message. We never find out this prince's name even though Julien does meet him and passes on his message after the delay in Strasbourg. The prince takes down notes as Julien reveals the message. I don't remember finding out why this prince wanted Julien to wait for 2 weeks in Strasbourg before hearing the message. Once Julien's message is delivered, that's it with this prince. No more interaction between them, at least in this part of the story.

Why did the Duke send Julien to hang out in Strasbourg for 12 days before returning to Metz to pick up the return message for the Marquis? Stendhal occasionally puts things into the story that make us work hard to divine their significance.

I think Stendhal sends Julien to Strasbourg because it's across the river from Kehl, the site of a seige in 1796. That's the introduction to the device that Stendhal uses to reveal to us how ignorant and untrustworthy is the man to whom Julien will turn for advice.

Julien is obsessed with Mathilde and needs a friend in whom he can confide and who might counsel him on how to proceed in the relationship. Enter Prince Korasoff, stage right.

When Julien bumps into him, the Prince is expounding on the seige of 1796 in Kehl, which is just across the Rhine River from Strasbourg. Korasoff knows almost nothing about that seige but that doesn't get in the way of him delivering a lecture on the subject. Julien is dazzled by the Prince; his fine clothing clothing, his horsemanship, his elegant manners, etc. Just the right "friend" to give Julien lessons on love.

Korasoff's scheme: make Mathilde jealous by sending serial, pre-written love letters to another woman. The Prince knows as much about love as he knows about the seige of 1796. It's a preposterous idea put forth by a preposterous fellow. Julien, of course, will put the plan into action.

I suppose it had to happen; while reading this novel, I've become more interested in Europe.

I'm reading The London Telegraph and Der Spiegel but haven't been able to find a French newspaper of comparable quality. Does anyone know of one, accessible on the internet in an English edition?

Knox: Re: French newspapers in English. Try http://www.lefigaro.fr/english/ or http://mondediplo.com

Knox, I like your style. "Julien is dazzled by the Prince; his fine clothing clothing, his horsemanship, his elegant manners, etc. Just the right "friend" to give Julien lessons on love. Who wouldn't be dazzled by all the splendor that surrounds him, how he wished he was one of them though but I am surprised that Julien doesn't find something negative to say about him but perhaps because the Prince is Russian he is too in awe of him for that.

So many loose ends and I keep wondering if they will all unravel in the end.

KNOX, thank you for that fascinating link to Google Earth. Unfortunately I don't have Windows, and the Google Pack is apparently not (yet) available for Apple computers.

JOAN, Stendhal is more interested in satirizing the bored, hypocritical Parisian society, whose mores he himself did not like, than in the lives of the common folks, other than through the character of Julien.

Julien, I believe is not, strictly speaking, a spy. A spy is intent on infiltrating a hostile environment (sometimes a foreign nation, sometimes a commercal competitor) in order to gather as much information as possible, whereas Julien is a courier entrusted with the task of conveying/delivering a message (committed to his memory) and waiting for an answer.

It remains to be seen whether he actually accomplishes anything of value that would make a difference in the scheme of things. The author may well have intended, secondarily for purposes of the novel, to put some geographic distance between Julien and the high-strung Mathilde, who seems emotionally unstable.

As ÉLOÏSE said, the nobility and the clergy had common interest in keeping the monarchy. Neither wanted the return of people who would espouse Republican, i.e. liberal ideas.

evergreen, thanks very much for the links to the French newspapers. I'll give them a look.

I really enjoyed chapter twenty three. It is exciting. I love spy/courier plots. Traude, thank you for explaining the differences between a spy and courier. I don't understand the reasoning behind all the activities happening to Julien. Priests are involved. These priests or one priest had the nerve to enter Julien's room and look through his trunk. They placed laudanum in his wine to make him sleep deeper. They also put laudanum in the Italian singer's drink. Whatever is going on is awfully important and dangerous.

I don't think Julien is totally ignorant of the role he is playing or how important he is in making a delivery.

"He was handed a passport which bore an assumed name, but did finally indicate the purpose of the journey which he had always pretended to be ignorant of."

Is Scarlet Pimpernel on the Great books list? I would love to read that one. Lauren Willig has written a book titled The Secret History of the Pink Carnation. The main character, it seems, is writing her dissertation about the the Scarlet Pimpernel spies. I haven't read the books. I can not read these until after reading The Scarlet Pimpernel.

Lauren Willig

France, for some reason, seems like a perfect setting for spy and adventure novels. Are there many French classics about spies and adventure? Julien is really putting me in the mood for more adventure. Now I am really headed to Strasburg. I can not believe the serious intent to stop Julien. Twelve horses "in a stable at the far end of the village. They want to delay some courier or other."

Are these people talking about the possibility of a second revolution? I thought these words very disturbing.

"What does it matter to them if the State is overthrown? They will be cardinals, and take refuge in Rome. But nobles like us, in our chateaux, will be massacred by the peasants."

It sounds like the French Revolution all over again, bloodshed, aristocracy vs. peasants, etc.

Hello there, evergreen! Had no idea you were with us until you spoke up yesterday. Have you been reading along? It is good to see you here! Don't go away! Bienvenue!

Knox, it was funny to hear that you have found a new interest in Europe. Since the recent elections, I have become interested in modern France too.

Each year there is a demonstration by the Legitimists in Paris around the Joan of Arc monument - on the Rue de Rivoli near the Louvre in support of the pretender to the French throne from the house of Bourbon. I believe the demonstrators gather around this time of the year. (May 30, perhaps.) Will watch the Figaro link - thanks, evergreen. Here is the current pretender to the throne - just in case the Monarchy is restored any time soon.

Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Would be Louis XX today)
French Royal House - Here

Hats - Baroness Emmuska Orczy's The Scarlet Pimpernel was a big hit on stage in the early 1900's and then published as a novel where it was a best seller. As far as I know, it is not considered one of the Great Books of the Western World, but it would certainly be fun to read - or see a stage production. It is available to read online, too. Scarlet Pimpernel on-line

Hats, you asked about another revolution. Yes, there was one, though not quite as much bloodshed as the "big one." It occurred in July, 1830. Stendhal lived through it and published Le Rouge later that year. The story that we are reading is set in the years preceding the revolution of 1830.

I've been reading parts of Alistair Horne's La Belle France and will share with you some of the relevant information that gives an idea of what went on at that time.

"Most Frenchmen found the restored monarchy (Charles X) quite endurable, but Paris was as ever more politicised and less acquiescent. There the reactionary Charles X had become progressively more unpopular, especially since he expressed his intent to ban the reconciliatory and liberal Charter, to which the Bourbon monarchy had pledged itself on returning to power. Had Charles X been prepared to respect the Charter, possibly the monarchy could have taken fresh root between 1815 and 1830.

But by the summer of 1830, there were soaring bread prices, wage cuts and unemployment; some 64,000 Parisians had no stable employment making them dependent on either charity or crime.

In June Charles dissolved the Chamber of Deputies, in order to hold the fresh elections that would enable him to do away with the liberal charter and suspended freedom of the press. On 26 July a demonstration broke out in the city with a dense crowd in the gardens of the Palais Royal. They were driven away by the police and by midnight the calm suggested that the authorities were in control. Charles X, relaxing at St. Cloud, put Napoleonic veteran, Marshal Marmont in charge. On the 27th once again the crowds were back on the streets, this time setting up barricades...

That day a young woman had been shot down with a bullet in the forehead. A butcher's boy carried the corpse into the Place des Victoires. The sight aroused the crowd with calls for vengeance. During the night of the 27th/28th barricades were run up in the eastern districts, traditional haunts of revolution. Workers plundered gunsmiths for weapons and seized the arsenal. On the morning of the 28th...full scale insurrection. At a serious disadvantage fighting in the narrow streets, Marmont could only order a withdrawal from the inner city.

Nevertheless fighting continued savagely on the 29th...to the Louvre. Swiss guards fled in panic up the Champs-Elysées as the mob entered and sacked the Tuileries.

By the afternoon of the 29th the insurgents found themselves in control of the whole city, bewildered by the totality of their success. Taking advantage, liberal deputies called for the abdication of Charles X. They nominated Louis-Philippe, Duc d'Orléans, to assume the throne. In vain, Charles attempted to save the dynasty by putting forward his grandson, the Duke of Bordeaux, as Henri V. Constitutional monarchy held no charms for this last of the Bourbons."

So there you have it - the revolution was accomplished in three days - the Trois Glorieuses - the insurgents lost 1800 dead and 4500 were wounded, most of whom were under thirty five, while the royalists had suffered about a thousand casualties. But it was the bourgeoisie who had won this latest revolution.

Marni, I will try to suspend my suspicions at the great coincidence of Julien meeting Prince K. in Strasbourg, though I was quite impressed by the fact that he nearly tempted Julien to go with him to Moscow where he offered him the hand of his cousin, a very rich heiress - and the promise that he could reach the rank of colonel in two years if he did. Stendhal writes that "Julien was on the point of accepting; but duty called him back to the great personage." What if he had accepted and not returned for the important message the Marquis was waiting for? Forgive me, but it seemed like a ploy to deflect Julien from his role of courier.
Traudee, I'm wondering too if Julien will accomplish anything of value to the "cause" or if Stendhal was just putting some distance between Julien and Mathilde. I was getting a little weary of their pas de deux, weren't you?

Éloïse - "so many loose ends and I keep wondering if they will all unravel in the end." Me too! Do you think we will learn more of the Prince and Geronimo before the conclusion? I guess I shouldn't ask you - you are the one who read and recommended we read this novel!

Knox, I see Julien impressed at the Prince's appearance - willing to overlook his blundering lecture describing the siege of 1796 - I think the Prince could have said anything and Julien would have followed. This is why I saw his appearance in Strasbourg as part of a plot to distract Julien from his duty.

Julien was in total awe of his appearance - not only his clothes - everything about him - even his haircut. I loved that detail. The Prince took him to a haberdasher and bought him a new cravat and counseled him on his facial expression - A gloomy face is a sign of inferiority - he must look bored instead. Julien is ready to listen to anything.

To win Mme. de Dubois, Julien must woo another woman she knows. Julien knows just the lady. In chapter 25 we get to know more about Madame de Feraques. From the description Don Diego Bustos provides, I'd have cautioned Julien to be careful playing around with this one. Of course Don Diego Bustos takes him at his word, believing Julien is in love with her. Is the woman married? Where is le maréchal?

1. We read Scaramouche in English Lit in 11th grade. A great book? (At least a great adventure and a great song!)

2. The multiple revolutions that took place in France in the 1790's showed that shopkeepers, laborers, skilled craftsmen,and farmers all had quite different interests. I think Julian was the son of a sawmill owner (not a carpenter).

3. During the period in which the novel was set was Strasbourg in Alsace or Lorraine?

JOAN, thank you for the link to Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. The history of the House of Bourbon is fascinating, intricate, and endless.
There was also a Bourbon-Parma branch, the Orléans branch, the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, a Spanish branch who now between two branches regarding the coat-of-arms. ==========================================

Despite being a witness to the birth of a cospiracy, and an emissary, Julien shows little interest in his mission while waiting in Strasbourg. He is unable to think about anything but Mathilde and how he can make her love him again. He is despairing and has no one to confide in.

Then he happens on Russian Prince Korasoff whom he had met in London. Overwhelmed by misery, Julien decides to tell his woes to the Prince, but he invents a different name for his beloved, Madame de Dubois. "What a strange name!", says the Prince and bursts out laughing. (It sounds a bit ridiculous, in French)

The Prince's appraisal of "Madame de Dubois" is pretty accurate. He proposes a very detailed plan on how Julien can recapture the attention of "Madame de Dubois", so one important component of the plan is that Julien must direct all his attention to courting another woman -- the jeaslousy factor, of coure !!

Julien remembers a widow, by birth a foreigner (Dutch, it turns out), who is a frequent dinner guest at the de la Mole table, a woman known for her indisputable virtuousness: Madame de Fervaques.

Another component of the Prince's plan are 53 recycled love letters, carefully geared to the progressive stages of courtship. The Prince also advises that Julien ignore "Madame de Dubois". That will be hardest, knows Julien. They rehearse the details over and over until the wee hours of the morning.
Julien realizes that this may be his only chance to win Mathilde back and reluctantly agrees to the plan.

I believe the appearance of the Prince in Strasbourg was designed by the author so as to get Julien back to Paris. We learn only that the Marquis is not pleased by the dispatches he reads. The Marquise, however, sings Julien's praises to all and sundry - later at dinner.

Promptly after arriving home, Juliens visits Count Altamira, the handsome foreigner of noble birth who lives under a death sentence, which lends him special distnction. The Count is also religious. Julien confesses to him that he is "deeply in love" with Madame de Fervaques.

The Count offers no personal advice but takes Julien instead to Don Diego Bustos, a man who had wooed Madame de Fervaues for two long years - without the slightest success. And he tells the story. This chapter is quite funny. Before Julien leaves, Don Diego says, </blockqute> "Altamira tels me that you are one of us. One day you will help us to win back our freedom, so I am ready to help you in this little diversion. It would be a good thing for you to be acquainted with the Marchéchale's style. Here are four letters in her own hand."
"I'll copy them", cried Julien, "and bring them back to you."
This could have some meaning in the context of the conspiracy./blockquote> Julien only feigns an interest in Madame de Fervaques. He really doesn't know what to talk to her about and fears he'll fall asleep. He even forgets to send off the first of the 'love letter'. But pays no attention whatever to Mathilde, he does not join the adoring circle after dinner and does not follow her out into the garden.

Julien clings to the side of Madame de F. -- until Mathilde leaves her seat and moves closer to Julien and Mme.de Fervauqes. Julien notices and is suddenly "revived" and begins to converse most eloquently.

He writes the first love letter with difficulty but delivers it in person, exactly as instructed by the Prince. When Madame de F. joins the after-dinner conversation that evening, she gives no sign and makes no mention of having received the letter.

BTW, the title of Chapter 26 in my translation is "Platonic Love", which is perhaps closer to the author's meaning because Julien did not really want a passionate relationship with her at all.

ZANY, in reply to your question: Alsace and Lorraine are contiguous regions. Strasbourg is the capital of Alsace. The capital of Lorraine is Metz.

The description in Chapter 24 of the German Kehl, opposite Strasbourg on the other bank of the Rhine, is excellent

Julien begins a courtship with Madame la Marechale de Fervaques. She was introduced to us in chapter 14 as the "brilliant wife of Marshal de Fervaques". (Notice that she's the "wife of", and not the "widow of" the Marshal.) Her eyes and expession remind Julien of Madame de Rênal. Maybe that's why Julien chose her to be the woman he will use to make Mathilde jealous.

Don Bustos tells Julien that the Marechale is "often out of temper, nothing if not vindictive and much given to hatred". This character reference doesn't phase Julien at all. He's determined to go ahead with the courtship, employing the love-letter scheme concocted by Korasoff, the Prince of Fatuity.

The elements are being assembled for a Perfect Storm.

You're right, zanybooks, Julien's father is a sawmill owner but Stendhal has used the terms "carpenter" and "sawmill owner" interchangeably.

Maybe Julien's memory of his youth, toiling and miserable in the wood industry, is what he subconsciously tapped into when he invented the name for his imaginary mistress in Strasbourg, "Madame de Dubois".

Prince Korasoff burst out laughing when he heard that name. Would he have made fun of it if he'd known of Julien's origins?

JoanP, thank you for further information Charles X and that period more timely information too. Also, thank you for the book link. No, The Scarlet Pimpernel is not listed in the Great Books' Lists. Zanybooks.com, thank you for the mention of Saramouche.

There is a painting of Julien on the front of my book, The Red And The Black. All this time I thought Julien looked very sad in the painting. Now I wonder whether his look is one of pretended boredom. I don't know.

Chapter 27 provided a few more tidbits to support my assertion that the marquis is an Ultra and not a closet Republican. All are toward the end of the chapter.

“[Julien] noticed in this salon three of the persons who had been present at the drawing up of the secret note. One of them, my lord bishop of -----the Marechale’s uncle …”

“There was a sectarian jealously between the austere Jansenist and the salon of the virtuous marechale which was Jesuitical, reactionary, and monarchical.”

If the salon of the marechale was monarchical and the marechale’s uncle was present in the salon during the drawing up of the secret note, then I am deducing that the group assembled was a group of Ultras. I still don’t think we know what their plan is though.

In Chapter 28, we have these quotes further supporting the house of the marechale as Ultra:

“As he took leave of the marechale in the vestibule of the opera, she said to him, ‘Remember, monsieur, one must not like Buonaparte if you like me.”

“Although our hero made every possible human effort to eliminate from his conversation any symptom of good sense, it still preserved a certain anti-monarchical and blasphemous tinge which did not escape Madame de Fervaques.”

I hope I am reading this right. I know someone will correct me if I am muddled.

Joan had asked which side Julien was on. That is an interesting question. I still think he is on the opposite side of the Ultras, but he sure seems to be enjoying the life of the wealthy. I think a question in the reader’s mind now would be whether Julien will maintain his original principals and beliefs or be swayed.

Laura, I agree with your deduction; "... the group assembled was a group of Ultras". Their plan is revealed in chapter 25, after Julien returned to Paris and gave the Duke's reply to the Marquis de La Mole.

Soon afterwards Julien learned that the Marquis was to become a Minister: "he offered the Camarilla a highly ingenious plan for destroying the Charter, without any fuss, in three years' time". (The "Camarilla" is the group of conspirators.)

Julien's small but important role in this conspiracy was an unwitting betrayal of the accomplishments of his hero, Napolean.

Traude, let me rephrase my question. During the period in which this novel is set, was Strasbourg in France or Germany?

About half-way through Chapter 24, the Prince asks

"What sort of friends has Madame de Dubois? Good God! what a name! Don't be cross, my dear Sorel, I can't help it. To whom will you pay court ?" and Julien answers
"To an unrivalled prude, the daughter of an immensely rich stocking merchant. She has the loveliest eyes in the world, which I find definitely attractive. She is certainly the most important person in the district; but amid all her grandeur, she blushes deeply and is quite overcome with confusion if any one happens to mention trade or shops. And unfortuately for her, her father was one of the best-known tradesmen in Strasbourg."
Two paragraphs later Stendhal makes us privvy of Julien's thoughts through the interior monologue technique (which we haven't mentioned so far).
Julien was thinking of Madame de Fervaqes, the Maréchal's widow, who often came to the Hôtel de la Mole. She was a beautiful foreigner who had married the Maréchal a year before his death. Her whole lie seemed to have no other object than to make people forget that she was he daughter of a tradesman and in order to count as someoe in Paris she has become a leading light among the virtuous."

LAURA, your interpretation is right on. The Marqis is a royalist through and through; moreover, he is an Ultra. The Ultras are the most extreme faction among the royalists. As we've seen, members of the clergy also belong tothis same extreme faction.

In fact, Madame de Fervaques would never have been welcome in the house of the de la Mole's had she not also been a royalist. In chapter 28 we see that someone had alerted her about Julien's admiration for Napoleon. In the fourth paragraph she says "your Bonaparte".
"This remark restored Julien's mind to all its former alertnes."

In the very next paragraph Madame de F. says " Souvenez-vous, monsieur, qu'il ne faut pas aimer Bonaparte quand on m'aime , given in my translation as "Remember, sir, that people who love me must not love Bonaparte ...". (emphasis mine) Indeed, the French aimer is stronger than our "to like".

The Blue Ribbon is referred to in the last part of Chapter 25. In my translation it begins with

"An intrigue among members of the power behind the throne was about to dispose of a few Blue Ribbons. Madame de Fervaques insisted that her great-uncle should be made a Knight of the Order; the Marquis de la Mole was making a similar claim for his father-in-law. They joined forces and the Maréchale came nearly every day to the Hôtel de la Mole. If was from her that Julien learned that the Marquis was about to become a Minister (!)."
As a minister, the Marquis would be in a position to rescind the Charter without a problem within three years' time.
Stendhal did not describe the Charter, probably the French readers of his novels were familiar with it.

For my part, I am not sure that "to dispose of" (in my translation) is the proper term in connection with a(ny) decoration. And the Blue Ribbon was clearly coveted.

Manon Lescaut was a ahort novel, written by Antoine François Prévost, the Abbé (!) Prévost. It was controversial and banned in France not long after its publication in 1713. it spawned Giacomo Puccini's "dramma lirico" (opera") of the same name. It was first performed in Turin (Torino) in 1893.

I hope your day is as lovely as it is here in the nation's capital today! A lovely day to plant the gardens - not yet unbearably hot and humid!
Zany - interesting thoughts -

1. "He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." Julien would have been better off with Scaramouche's traits. But the Prince doesn't agree - thinks a "bored" expression will win Mathilde. Hats, does Julien's portrait on your book cover seem bored?

2. From the very early pages, Stendhal refers to Julien as the "son of a carpenter". Maybe he has a side business as a carpenter using those pine planks from his saw mill.

3. Alsace - in France or Germany? Traudee will be along to remind us that there was no Germany yet. But I do remember when Julien crossed the Rhine at Kehl there was a German peasant ("Un paysan allemand ") who pointed out some of the historical sites...and again the German peasant listened with amazement to Prince Korosoff's lecture on what seems to be the peasant's homeland.

On the same page where there was mention of the German peasant - in the Strasbourg chapter, I came across this -

"When he numbered over the adversaries and enemies he had had during his life, Julien found that invariable he himself had been in the wrong."

Considering his pride, I thought that was quite an admission for him to make. Funny, he doesn't seem to consider it wrong to make a woman fall in love with him. He has never considered a woman's feelings when he sets out to conquer, does he? He isn't giving a thought to la maréchale's feelings once he makes Mathilde jealous enough. He'll drop Madame de Feraques as quickly as he uses her.

Knox - "the lady is nothing if not vindictive" - I don't think she will take Julien's rejection well. Somewhere in the text I remember reading that she was also somewhat "Jesuitical" - did that mean anything to you?

She is "the wife of"- So you think there is a maréchal? What is un maréchal? Where is he? Is he the one who can make Julien a bishop?
EDIT - I see Traudee has found more about Madame de Fervaques - "She was a beautiful foreigner who had married the Maréchal a year before his death." Does she still have power to name Julien to a high church office?

As Traudee describes her she is a woman of "Indisputable virtuousness." Thank you for sharing the title of Chapter 26 in your translation, Traudee - "Platonic Love" makes more sense than "Moral Love" which is how it is translated in the Norton Critical edition. Do you think this is how Madame de Fervaques will understand Julien's love letters?

Reading your posts, I see Julien caught in the middle of the two sides that will battle for power in the Revolution about to happen. It seems that he has much invested with the Royalists - he's in love with his sponsor's daughter - he will use the powerful Maréchale to win Mathilde's affection. And he is hoping to advance in the Church. I'm not sure I understand what his plans are regarding Mathilde. Do we hear a word about marriage? Wouldn't church office - a bishopric say, preclude marriage? Does he sense the coming Revolution?

He walks a fine line, sending off different messages to each side. LauraD - Madame de Fervaques is monarchical as you say, and she does notice something anti-monarchical in Julien's conversation. Don't you wonder what she thinks of this? Nothing seems to escape her notice. Maybe if she does fall in love with Julien, she will overlook his irreligious tone and his anti-monarchical comments.

Traudee - reminds us of one of her remarks to Julien - "Remember, sir, that people who love me must not love Bonaparte ..." And we all know of Julien's love for Bonaparte. (But then, Julien doesn't love her, does he?

)

Julien's loyalties are quite clear to Altamira and other revolutionaries. Will he have to choose sides before the story is over? I see him too overcome by his emotions to pay attention to the trouble he is in. Does he care about anything but Mathilde? (Is there anyone who doubts his love for her at this point?)

"Constitutional provisions.

The Charter of 1830 removed from the king the power to instigate legislation; royal ordinances were henceforth to concern only the application of laws. Hereditary peerage was eliminated, but not the institution of peerage. The census suffrage system was modified and the poll tax (cens) was reduced to 200 francs permitting individuals 25 years old or older to vote, and to 500 francs for individuals 30 years old or older to be elected to the Chamber of Deputies. The law of the Double vote was abolished, and the number of electors was thus doubled, without nevertheless significantly increasing the size or characteristics of the electoral body: 1 out of 170 Frenchmen participate in the elections with the electorate at 170,000 which increased to 240,000 by 1846.

Catholicism was no longer the state religion, but only the "religion professed by the majority of the French", censureship of the press was abolished, the French tricolor flag was reinstated.

[edit] References This article is based on the article Charte de 1830 from the French Wikipedia, retrieved on October 13, 2006."

This charter needs to be examined carefully as every word has deep implication in the lives of the people. It practically eliminates the power of the Monarchy and the church.

Traude, my version at the end of chapter XXV concerning the Blue Ribbon reads: "Une intrigue parmi les membres du gouvernement occulte allait disposer de quelques cordons bleus" the French word disposer doesn't have the same meaning as the English disposed of I understand it as: "An intrigue among the members of the government was underway to give awards (blue ribbons)".

Madame la maréchale insisted that her great uncle would be 'Chevalier de l'Ordre' and the Marquis had the same ambition and it was from her that Julien learned that the Marquis would be named Minister. He offered an ingenious plan to anihilate the Charter without 'commotion' in three years."

Decorations, awards medals would be proudly exhibited on a man's chest, to show of their worth, not only because they had faught in a war, made new discoveries, acquired wealth but also because that they had friends in high places who could be influenced with large 'donations'. The court intrigues must have been tremendous. A decoration, (blue ribbon) would be among the highest awards.

ÉLOïSE, thank you for the information about the Charter. The reader gets the impression that at this point Stendhal is more concerned with his hero than in pursuing the track of Julien's mission. Thank you also for confirming that the French verb "disposer" was not rendered accurately in the English translation I am using. Of course I don't mean to criticize th translator, nor do I want to be considered "fussy".

However, my professional life was devoted to facilitating the written, as well as the oral, exchanges between people who do not speak the same language, and my sense of perception has become more acute over time; it's a professional hazard, you might say.

ZANY, your question in whose hands the Alsace-Lorraine region was during the events described in R&B may be of general interest. Unfortunately there is no one-sentence answer. I'll try to compose one that is as brief as possible. Later.

JOAN, in one brief sentence in Chapter 25 we read that Mathilde had almost forgotten Julien while he was away. But, again, we are reading her thoughts in this paragraph.

You asked whether Julien truly loves Mathilde.
I would say he is trying wth all his might to convince himself that he loves her.

Is it possible that this love is actually conceived in his mind and therefore different from the true love of the heart ?
Both Julien and Mathilde rationalize, mull over and reflect on their every emotion, action, the other's reaction without ever stopping. They challenge each other, they aim to impress one another, there is, I believe, something akin to "cross-fertiizatin" of their minds, if I may call it that.

Isn't it interesting that Madame de Feraques is impressed by Julien's Machiavellian behavior ?? (Chapter 28)

Traude, thanks for the reference to Madame de Fervaques in chapter 24. I had misread that passage. It does clearly state that she married the Marshal a year before his death. She’s a widow – I got it!

But I’m still confused about her present marital status. What do you make of the following?

1. In chapter 9: who is the Comte Fervaques with whom Mathilde danced at the ball? She described him as “that master of impertinence” and treated him so cruelly that she made an enemy of him.

2. In chapter 25: after getting the low-down on the Marechale from Don Bustos and Count Altamira, Julien says to himself, “And here is the devout Altamira, . . . helping me in an adulterous enterprise.” If Madame de Fervaques is not married, how is the enterprise “adulterous”?

Joan, you asked if it meant anything to me that Madame de Fervaques was described as being Jesuitical. That came from Count Altamira, who told Julien, “She represents the purest and loftiest virtue . . . only it is a trifle Jesuitical and emphatic".

I think Altamira meant that she wears her "virtue" like a suit of armor. She's a little rigid and will rebuff anyone who would presume to challenge her cherished beliefs, opinions and prejudices.

Stendhal despised Jesuits, so I think he did not intend the description to be complimentary.

Bonjour, mes amis!

C'est aujourd'hui Dimanche - Sunday. An exciting day here as thousands of motorcycles converge on the capital under the banner of "Rolling Thunder" - many of them Vietnam Vets. friends and family. Saw one jacket - the back read - "When I die I'll go to heaven cause I've been to hell and back." They were heading to the Pentagon where they will join thousands more to roar down Constitution Ave. for hours this afternoon. This annual appearance on the Memorial Day weekend is always a highly charged emotional event.

Speaking of emotions - I have to say that Julien is strangely silent on his feelings about talk of Revolution that fills the air. Thanks Eloise and Traudee for the information on the Charter of 1830. "The Charter eliminated the power of the Church and the Monarch" - Julien stands to lose all his prospects! Not only does he not show concern, but he shows no interest in the bishopric he might receive from Madame de Fervaques. Do you think Stendhal purposely withholds Julien's point of view on the effect of revolution on his future?

The July Revolution is very near at hand. I have a footnote saying the the ballet Julien and Madame de Feraques attended - Manon Lescaut was first presented in Paris on May 30, 1830.!

Do you see any inkling that Julien would be happy to give up all prospects, leave Paris, and marry Mathilde if he succeeds in making her love him? And oh, what if the vengeful, vindictive Mme. de Fervaques learns that he was using her all along?

What do you think - is Julien making progress gaining Madame de Feraques' attention - romantically I mean? The two do have something in common - both coming from families of workers - tradesmen. Both are trying to forget - trying to make others forget. Wouldn't they want to avoid these backgrounds at all costs? I can't see Madame de Feraques lowering herself to Julien's social level - publicly at any rate.

Knox - I've read elsewhere that Stendhal worked quickly, and didn't proof his work afterward. Do you suppose he forgot what he had written earlier about Compte Fervaques once he mentioned his death the year before? I'm think I'm going to regard Madame as a widow and forget that there's would be an "adulterous affair" - if it comes to that!

The conversations between the two have captured Mathilde's attention. In Chapter 28, I see Mathilde impressed with Julien's "Machiavellian" behavior - but find it difficult to believe that Madame de Fervaques would be impressed if she knew what he was doing.

"What amazed her [Mlle. de La Mole] more than anything was his perfect insincerity; he never said a single word to the maréchale that was not a lie or at least an abominable distortion of his point of view, which Mathilde knew perfectly well on practically all topics. This Machiavellianism impressed her."

Can you see Madame de Fervaques falling for Julien's lies and distortions?

Knox, I had marked that passage that you mention in your post #679 as one to investigate because I did not know what it meant! Then along come Traude and Eloise to help with “the charter.” Thank you!

Joan asked, “LauraD - Madame de Fervaques is monarchical as you say, and she does notice something anti-monarchical in Julien's conversation. Don't you wonder what she thinks of this?”

Putting all my knowledge I have gained to use here, I would say that if Madame de Fervaques knows that Julien is studying for the priesthood, and the clergy are politically aligned with the ultras, then Madame de Fervaques would expect Julien to be of the same political thinking as her. She must wonder about Julien’s true identity, upbringing, and occupation since she is detecting something anti-monarchical in Julien’s conversation. I don’t think Julien will ultimately be able to fool her.

Traude asked, “Is it possible that this love is actually conceived in his mind and therefore different from the true love of the heart ? ”Both Julien and Mathilde rationalize, mull over and reflect on their every emotion, action, the other's reaction without ever stopping. They challenge each other, they aim to impress one another, there is, I believe, something akin to "cross-fertiizatin" of their minds, if I may call it that.”

I agree with your assertion. While there was an initial attraction between the two, based from the heart, I believe, the feelings from the heart were quickly replaced by planning. They thought it would be a good idea to be romantically involved, set their minds to it, and kept at the execution of the plan long after the romantic feelings for each other were replaced by feelings of conquest and accomplishment.

JoanP, on my cover I would say Julien looks sad. There is sadness in his eyes. I don't see boredom.

now that I've read chapters 28 and 29, I'm no longer rolling on the floor laughing at the possibility that Julian is deeply in love with Mathilde.

Zany, I feel the same way.

Remembering and honoring my nation's war dead today. I'm also mindful of the assistance France rendered to my country in our war of independence.

Happy Memorial Day to all!

Another contrast is noticed by Julien at the end of Chapter 31.

“As he passed with Mathilde by this spot which recalled to him so vividly the intensity of his grief, the contrast between past despair and present bliss was too strong for him; tears flooded his eyes, and, carrying to his lips the hand of his mistress: 'Here I lived while I thought of you; from here I gazed at that shutter, I awaited for hours on end the fortunate moment when I should see this hand open it ...'”

Will Julien’s happiness with Mathilde continue? What the heck is he doing continuing to copy out the Russian letters and send them to the marechale?

Thank you, Knox! I'm sure that most of us here remember a time when Memorial Day was strictly a time for "remembering" - and not just another day at the beach. I think we lost something moving the May 30 celebration to another three-day holiday.

Zany - I see a change in Mathilde too , though I wonder how much of it is jealousy? Does Julien love Mathilde? He definitely has no feelings for Madame Fervaques. He isn't even curious when she starts writing to him - doesn't he want to see if Prince Korshoff's plan is working? Madame's feelings aren't part of his plan, I suppose. But the plan seems to be working. Julien stashes her unopened letters in a drawer until the day that Mathilde notices one of them - and when she sees the rest, she loses it - "not only are you intimate with her, you despise her!"

I'm not sure what Mathilde thought this meant - does she suppose that Julien is intimate with Madame de Fervaques to use her connections in high places? I liked the epigram to Chapter 29 -

"To sacrifice oneself to one's passions, well, maybe; but to passions one does not feel! Oh, the sad nineteenth century." Girodet

Was this something widespread in the 19th century, sacrificing to passions one did not feel in order to advance?

Hats - the sad face in the portrait of Julien says it all. Can he ever believe Mathilde? How can she guarantee that once he confesses his love for her, she won't get haughty with him again?

And yes, Laura - why does Julien continue to write to the Maréchale? As I recall, the first batch of letters were supposed to get her used to receiving letters from him, but the final ones are true love letters. Julien is paying little attention to what he is copying, and he isn't reading her responses! Trouble ahead!

"Will Julien’s happiness with Mathilde continue?" Good question, Laura? How can Mathilde give him the guarantee he needs?

JOAN, trouble is brewing, and from an unexpected direction. Hold on to your horses !

Julien stays with the Prince's program, and it is working. He clearly has no feeling for, or interest in, Madame de Fervaques. She is a means to an end, and that end is to make Mathilde jealous.

According to his own description of the second-hand letters, they are dull and dreadfully long. He is surprised when he receives Madame de F.'s first letter. With some relief he discovers that her letter is as dull and incomprehensible as his letters to her. She soon writes him every day; he dputs them in a drawer, unopened.

When he receives an invitation to dinner at her house, Julien is momentarily thrown because he does not know what to do or how to react. Unfortunately, no such contingency was foreseen by the Prince.

The jealous Mathilde seeks out Julien (who couldn't be more delighted) and a period of bliss follows. Will it last ? Can it last ?

Oh my goodness! I decided to begin chapter 32. I either have lost my mind or my reading ability. I can't believe what Mathilde just said. I need to go to bed and regroup. My lips are sealed.

Oh dear, Hats, please try your best to keep lips sealed until Thursday! Broad hinting here has implied that the back-and-forth between Julien and Mathilde is about to end - things are going to happen quickly as the number of pages dwindle. But don't stay away - we would miss you too much! Mum's the word!

I'll copy the discussion schedule from the heading - if you read ahead, please make every effort not to speak - out of consideration for those who haven't read beyond. D'accord?

Book II -	DATES
Chapters 24 - 31	May 24 - May 30
Chapters 32 - 34	May 31 - June 2

Here's another warning - Chapter 35 is another explosive chapter. Try to put off reading that until the weekend or it will really be a challenge to keep quiet!!! I'll write the rest of our cohort this morning and see if they are catching up with us - and let them know the end is near!

Last pm I was reading over the passages in which Prince K proposes the letter-writing scheme and find my initial suspicions renewed. First there is the great coincidence that the Russian prince Julien had met in England turns up in Strasbourg the same week that Julien is there. But pray tell, why does this Prince just happen to be traveling with "six bound volumes of loveletters - for every sort of woman?" Doesn't that seem odd to you? My instincts tell me that the Prince's plan is part of a plot - but what?

The set of letters the Prince chooses for Madame le Maréchale is meant to influence a woman of loftiest virtue. He tells Julien that"Kalisky made love to the prettiest Quakeress in all England." Did we meet Kalisky? Are we supposed to know who he is? Prince K. tells Julien that he's only giving him 53 love letters because "Kalisky was given the boot" before he sent the 54th?

LauraD - do you think the reason Julien persists in sending the full set of letters is because he wants to follow the Prince's instruction to send all of them or risk failure? He is determined to send the 53 letters and then never send another.

In Chapter 27 we're told that "the first forty letters were intended merely to beg Madame's pardon for his boldness in writing. It was necessary to induce this sweet creature, who perhaps was bored to tears, to form the habit of receiving letters perhaps a little less insipid than her everyday life."

Traudee - I too find Julien's behavior reprehensible - using the woman's feelings for the single purpose of making Mathilde jealous. She is now looking forward to his letters - writing to him everyday. No matter that his answers do not relate to anything that she has written. His letters have become the most important thing in her life.

Julien's plan - (the Prince's plan) to conquer Mathilde is working - "Julien finds the proud beauty at his feet." Counting Mesdames de Rênal and de Fervaques, Julien has now conquered three "proud beauties."

Do you wonder at Stendhal's intentions in writing this novel? Zany, do you see all three women in high places falling for Julien? Does he care for them, or is it just the thrill of the conquest? Traudee asks of his new-found bliss with Mathilde - "Can it last?" From what you know of Julien now, what do you think? Will he soon be off to another conquest?

I do fear for Julien when he becomes emotional and speaks of taking his life. If I remember correctly, he used such words at a different time.

"Ah! how much wiser I would be, he said to himself, to remove my name from my linen and go off to some solitary forest twenty leagues from Paris and end this execrable life! As a stranger in the region, my death would stay hidden for a fortnight, and who would spare a thought for me after a fortnight!"

Is it possible this young man, Julien, never experienced a happy day in his life?

I do see danger in the way Julien just copies these letters. The tiniest detail could have some importance. Still, he writes like he is off in a daydream somewhere, not fully attentive to what he is doing at the time.

"the sleepless nights
the daily fights
the quick toboggan when you reach the heights
I wish i were in love again."
Lorenz Hart

Pirandello would have us observe that they are all just characters in a novel. do we really care? do we care because their lives touch on past experiences of our own or those we love? or do we care only because we are desperate to care about something?

Had Beyle been a less gifted writer, one incapable of subtle turns of phrase and wit, I'd of abandoned this pot boiler long ago.

Zany, after we've finished reading this book I hope you and everyone in our group will share their answers to your questions, "do we care, and why?".

Hi-I've returned from my travels and have finally succeeded in catching up with all the posts. Reading so many posts at once (over 90 of them) it was most obvious that no matter the content of the novel, this is a most erudite group ! What a great discussion.

Zanybooks- Not only is Stendhal a great writer but this group finds all the unpolished diamonds, polishes them and sets them in appropiate (historical) settings. Though the plot itself is a potboiler it has enough special touches to drive the story and our "need to know". Whether this reminds us of lost love or not, there are elements of feckless youth that most of us have experienced or at least, observed in others.

To those interested, the Elder Hostel I went to was "Crime Scene Investigation" (CSI Las Vegas). It certainly covered the subject well-from DNA to sniffing dogs to a visit with the coroners office. If there are any other fans of mysteries , either TV or novels, this is an eye opening and fascinating experience. Our son also took us to a great movie which won the best Foreign Film Oscar this year- "The Lives of Others". A German movie about East Germany before and after the fall of the Berlin Wall.. A love story about writers and actors under a Stalinist regime. Well worth seeing.

Mathilde cares so deeply for Julien that she's already composing his eulogy (in chapter 26).

"At midnight when she took up her mother's candlestick, to escort her to her room, Madame de La Mole stopped on the stairs to utter a perfect panegyric of Julien."

Another allusion to Mathilde's morbid fascination with death?

Joan, I am still in agreement with you that the Prince turning up in Strasbourg, and with copies of letter in hand, is just too coincidental. Maybe Stendahl had to have him “appear” so that Julien could receive the letters. If so, I think it was too contrived and not believable. On the other hand, maybe there is some unknown reason why he was there to meet Julien. Further reading will answer that question.

I do not know why Julien continues to send the letters to Madame le Maréchale. He is not acting mindfully when doing anything with these letters, be he copying them, delivering them, not reading the responses to them, or thinking about whether to continue with them.

Zany ad Knox, one of the main reasons I read this book was to learn more about early 19th century France. In that sense, the book is meeting my expectations.

Good to have you back, JUDY ! I'm glad you had a perfect tme at Elderhostel and with your son.

ZANY, it's interesting that you should bring up Luigi Pirandello (1867-1936), winner of the 1934 Nobel Prize for Italy, and his (perhaps best-known) play Six Characters in Search of an Author = "Sei personaggi in cerca d'autore", in Italian.

JOAN, the closer we come to the end of this novel, the more Julien becomes its main focus. How much do we learn of the mission after Julien's return to Paris ? Isn't it possible that the Prince's appearance in Strasbourg was nothing more than a device by the author to get Julien back to Paris to rekindle Mathilde's love ?

Immediately after returning, Julien begins to carry out the Prince's plan to arouse Mathilde's jealousy by creating a love triangle. The narrative is straight forward and proceeds in chronological order. There are neither "fast-forwards" (with undue, premature revelations) nor flashbacks. I find that welcome relief in this case. Stendhal is exceptional for his time in his psychological evaluation of the protagonists. Through their interior monologue we learn what they are thinking, feeling, planning; we get an idea of who they are.

Yes, there are sign posts in Part 1, and I well remember HAT's remarking on one such in Chapter 5. It is the humanity that should interest us, the human traits that we still display. How common is it today to pretend and profess something other than what one really believes in order to gain whatever objective is sought ? Don't we still say "All is fair in love and war" ?

LAURA, Stendhal gives us a satirical version of society in his time, and I wish we had an occasion to delve more deeply also into the time of the Revolution from 1789 to 1815, a period of terror but also of glory for France under Napoleon, who rose to dizzying heights. The failure of the Russian campaign precipitated the end, and a justly proud nation was thrown into despair by the humiliation it was dealt in Vienna in 1815.

In Julien’s mind, “love” is something to be prosecuted like a military campaign, and women are "adversaries" to be conquered. Mathilde’s inconstancy drove Julien to abandon what little common sense he may have once possessed. Desperate for a battle plan, he adopted the letter writing scheme promoted by the Russian, Prince Korasoff. As a student of Napoleon, Julien should have been more wary of overreaching into Russian territory.

The letter writing strategy had the desired effect on Madame la Maréchale de Fervaques and Mathilde. Having been introduced to the pleasures of sex and jealous of the attention that Julien is focusing on the maréchale, Mathilde abandons her pride and surrenders to her "master".

The last few chapters have been difficult for me. My own notions of love are offended by what Stendhal is presenting here. But The Red and the Black is not a love story, is it? Julien’s attempts to live an authentic life in a society that forbids him to be relevant; isn’t that the story?

I found this quote on http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture11a.html

“What is the third estate? Everything.

What has it been heretofore in the political order? Nothing.

What does it demand? To become something therein.”

. . . Abbé Sieyès, What is the Third Estate? (1789)

Julien is a member of that Third Estate (le Tiers-État), consisting of commoners, as Traude once informed us. The Marquis de La Mole, a member of le Deuxième État, has warned Julien not to attempt to rise above his station in life. Like most young people, Julien is not naturally inclined to obey his elders and “betters”. Young people are natural rebels and I think I'm seeing Julien’s life to be a kind of reenactment of the French Revolution. Against formidable opposition, Julien is striving to become something.

Judy, welcome back! I am glad you enjoyed visiting the Elderhostel.

Knox, thank you for the link. Stendahl meant for The Red and The Black to be more than just a romance, I think. I feel the whole book is about status or the class system. Stendahl uses Julien, a peasant, to show the difficulty, perhaps, the impossibility of rising above your dictated bloodline. In my eyes, at this time, France is not much different from India, born a shoemaker always a shoemaker, a caste system. Displacing the aristocracy during the French Revolution was only a turnabout in the caste system, still, bloodline, your notch in the scheme of things, dictates whether you will survive or die. I am reminded of A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens.

This inability to move forward and grow and dream and have honorable ambitions causes Julien to become an insecure young man. Julien is never allowed to have an identity picked by himself. His saving grace is his education. At least through books he learns Latin, war histories, he is able to be mentored, to go out into society without making himself look like a total buffoon. It is also his one way to find pleasure.

So, I think Stendahl wanted to reveal life in early nineteenth century France. Society can make us or break us. Is there a true democratic society or is it a utopia we continue to look for? I think Louisa May Alcott's father tried to make a perfect community. Fruitlands Thoreau also looked for a society where man could choose his place in life and not become denigrated by others.Thoreau/Philosophers

Stendahl also used Julien to prove the intelligence of Napoleon, a fallen hero. Overall, I think Stendahl had more than one important agenda in The Red and The Black.

Julien's ways with women have been less than honorable. I excuse him. If a person is never taught how to act in love, isn't it most likely he would stumble?

Who can forget the sights and sounds of LA petite ville de Verrières? I'd almost swear I'd been there in the early 19th century. But of Beyle's Paris (though every neighhbourhood of its real-life counterpart has its own character) I've no sense whatever. Ditto for Strasbourg. Anyone remember how the characters got from Strasbourg back to Paris? Or how one gets from the deMoyle's to the opera?

Knox, thank you again for your article link. The article is really very interesting. If I may quote one part of the article you brought here.

"The causes of the French Revolution are complicated, so complicated that a debate still rages among historians regarding origins, causes and results. In general, the real causes of the Revolution must be located in the rigid social structure of French society during the ancien regime As it had been for centuries, French society was divided into three Estates or Orders. The First Estate consisted of the clergy and the Second Estate the nobility. Together, these two Estates accounted for approximately 500,000 individuals. At the bottom of this hierarchy was the vast Third Estate which basically meant everybody else, or about 25 million people. This social structure was based on custom and tradition, but more important, it was also based on inequalities which were sanctioned by the force of law. So, we must look at these three Estates more carefully."

Traude said, “LAURA, Stendhal gives us a satirical version of society in his time, and I wish we had an occasion to delve more deeply also into the time of the Revolution from 1789 to 1815, a period of terror but also of glory for France under Napoleon, who rose to dizzying heights.”

Maybe we could cover some of that during the proposed discussion of The Scarlet Pimpernel. Here is part of what Joan included in the header:

“But he leads a double life as "the Scarlet Pimpernel," rescuer of aristocrats and innocents during the Reign of Terror after the French Revolution.”

Bonjour, bonjour, bonjour!
It is so good to see everyone gathering for the finale!

Hats fears the ending with Julien's talk of death. And as Knox reminds us, Mathilde flirts with death on a number of occasions. In the historical context, early death was not an unfamiliar option. Hats, when you think about it, Julien can't seem to be able to accept love - or happiness when offered to him. Is Stendhal writing about himself? Evaluating his own shortcomings when looking back at his life?

Knox makes it clear that this is not a love story, really. We shouldn't be looking for a happy ending. Were Stendhal's readers disappointed? Were they looking for romance? Or do they understand the point Stendhal is making? I'm wondering why the book was not successful when it was first published. Was French society just plain tired of the whole concept of class revolution?

Zany - interesting questions - "do WE care because their lives touch on past experiences of our own or those we love? or do we care only because we are desperate to care about something?" I agree with Knox - we must examine such questions before this discussion is over. I'm still wondering how Stendhal will leave us. Though I expect a tragic ending, I'm holding out hope for ...hope in a brighter future - or something! How many of you have finished the book, by the way?

Judy - lost love, feckless youth - the novel brings it all back to me, which is part of the reason I care. But, as we read on, I cannot think of any other path I could have chosen.
Welcome back! Wow, that was an exciting Elderhostel topic! Might you be interested in The Scarlet Pompernil? Plenty of mystery and intrigue here! We are planning for early September. If you are interested, please drop in - we are looking for a quorum. LauraD - another fun opportunity to become immersed in 19th century France - though a bit earlier than the Restoration period - during the reign of the Ancien Regime which Hats describes this morning - as "the real causes of the Revolution must be located in the rigid social structure of French society during the ancien regime."

Traudee writes - "I wish we had an occasion to delve more deeply also into the time of the Revolution from 1789 to 1815, a period of terror but also of glory for France under Napoleon" I would love to talk some here about the young Napoleon and the early days of the Revolution. There seems to be a strong parallel between Napoleon and Julien - and Stendhal? Where was Napoleon during the Revolution? Did he take part in it? Which side was he on? Aren't we asking the same thing about Julien?

LauraD, no, Julien is not "operating mindfully" with Madame Fervaques. I'm expecting his inattention to detail will catch up with him before the story ends.

Traudee - I think it is very possible that Julien's stay in Strasbourg was nothing more than a device. But it was an interesting sidetrip, wasn't it? Don't you wonder what Julien's mission was? Was it to bring in foreign aid to arm the aristocracy against another revolution? From the little we learn, the Marquis was not at all pleased with the response.

All the while, Julien shows no concern for the safety of the nobles if there is to be a Revolution. He seems detached from the turmoil in Paris - where he lives! Zany - what I find surprising is that it is Paris that is in turmoil, not the outlying villages - they seem to be doing alright with the restored Monarchy. It is Paris that is suffering, to the point of bloody revolution - the poor, the starving literally in the streets of Paris for all to see. And yet, as you say, Stendhal mentions not a word of this. Was it an intentional omission?

Julien's only focus is to win Mathilde. Traudee, I agree with you when you say that "Stendhal is exceptional in his psychological evaluation of the protagonists." This is the only way we can understand their strange actions we would otherwise observe.

Knox - "all is fair in love and war." Has love always been equated to war? Love - conquest. Do the successful combatants have a battle plan? I loved your observation - "As a student of Napoleon, Julien should have been more wary of overreaching into Russian territory." Do you think Stendhal had this in mind? Will the Russian connection be Julien's ultimate downfall?

"Julien’s attempts to live an authentic life in a society that forbids him to be relevant; isn’t that the story?" An informative link on the Third Estate, Knox - will move it to the heading to read again. Hats- Stendhal seems to be dangling the possibility that it IS possible to rise above one's "dictated bloodline," doesn't he? His premise seems to be that if you can just change your appearance, you can change reality.

Good morning JoanP,

I have not finished The Red and The Black. I try to stay within the scheduled readings. I have just started chapter thirty-three.

On first hearing, "If I give my heart
to you
I must be sure
From the very start
that you
would love me more than her."
the boy said, "what a beautiful song."
the girl said, "what a wimp."

I am right on schedule with the reading, Joan, getting ready to begin tomorrow's reading.

Zany - LOL! How appropriate!

Julien is wooing his maidens in the only way he knows how-as Napolean conquered foreign lands . Like Napoleon his initial success is great for the moment but History may have other plans for his end. Nevertheless, Napoleon shall not be forgotten,no matter what his end.

(Just as a sidebar I would like to mention that severe delusional Schizophrenics who believe they are someone else almost invariably choose either Jesus or Napoleon as their alter egos.)

The women fall for Julien and his wooing. He finds techniques that are sure fire. but he is also handsome, quick of mind and ambitous. What a combination.The perfect man--or is he?

Julien does not think his life is invaluable. He will do what he will do and damn the consequences. In the society where he resides that seems a tad dangerous.What will the consequences be ? Will he have to pay the piper? Will there be a sword fight or a gun battle? Hints abound and I am ready to finish the book to the end. But I will wait for you all. So on to Chapter 32.

Judy

JOAN, Napoleon was like the proverbial perpetuum mobile, inexhaustible. He was a short man but his achievements made him a giant. BR> More than one timeline can be found on the web; though not all show agreement on the same date for the same event(s).

The following data may provide answers to some of your questions.

Born in 1769, N. was 20 years old when the Revolution broke out.

In 1779 N. and his elder brother Joseph were sent to school in France, c/o King Louis XVI. Then N. attended military school, graduating in 1784.

Between 1786 and 1891 he made five (5) trips back to Corsica. The Bonaparte family moved from there to France in 1793.

In September of the same year, 1793, Napoleon, then a young captain of the artillery, made his name in the French port city of Toulon, which was under siege by British ships. The British withdrew in December. Napoleon was promoted to Brigadier General.

He set out on the Italian campaign in March 1796. One after the other, the Italian cities fell, among them Milan. The Treaty of Campo Formio was signed in October 1797. Napoleon returned to Paris a hero.

He made himself King of Italy. The conquests continued. This is how he rewarded his siblings :

Brother Joseph Bonaparte became King of Spain
Brother Louis Bonaparte became King of Holland.
(Napoleon made Louis marry Josephine's daughter, Hortense Beauharnais. When Louis looked after the interests of the Dutch people he ruled more than Napoleon liked, he forced Louis to resign.)
His brother Jerome Bonaparte became King of Westphalia.
His sister Caroline Bonaparte was married to General Joachim Murat. Napoleon made Murat King of Naples, and Caroline Queen.

Napoleon could not invade Austria so he married Marie Louise von Habsburg, the Emperor's daughter.
Two of Napoleon's sisters refused to carry Marie Louise's train and were threatened with exile.
Nine mnths later Louise gave birth to a son whom Napoleon named King of Rome. He died of TB before he was 20.

JOAN, how wonderful to know that we are going to follow up with Scarlett Pimperell !

Looking forward to Thursday !

Traude, I am so happy to know you are going to read Scarlet Pimpernel with us. As a matter of fact, I hope everybody here will come there. There is nothing like Grand reading party with spies too.

Traude, thank you for the information about Napoleon. How did Napoleon treat women as compared to Julien?

Judy, your second paragraph is very interesting. Do you think Julien suffers a mental illness?

Bonjour! Bonjour!

Hats - I had a similar reaction after reading Judy's sidebar - is our Julien mad? Will the latest developments drive him over the top? And then I had another thought - was Napoleon, himself mad? Of course this is heresy to those who worship the man...

Traude - Thank you for providing so much on Napoleon - you whetted my appetite for more. As I surfed around, I was astounded at the great similarity between Julien and Napoleon. I have begun to think that Stendhal modelled his protagonist after Napoleon, rather than himself! I'll post just a bit of this information with the source in case you want to read further.

"A careful study of the character and background of Napoleon Bonaparte can furnish us with many useful insights into his behaviour.
...when the Revolution had exhausted its potential and entered into a downward spiral, everything seems to go into reverse. The type of individuals who succeeded in this period have nothing in common with those who rose with the revolutionary high tide.
Here we find men and women of a very different type. These people had a definite character and personality that was well adapted to the changing fortunes of the Revolution- the unprincipled opportunist, the conformist toady and the self-seeking bureaucrat, the male and female money-grubbing fortune hunters. (Would you put Julien in this category?)

Napoleon was the son of a middle class Corsican family, at a time when Corsica had not even been French for long Napoleon was always self-conscious about his humble origins and provincial background. He came from a mediocre family and went to a mediocre military academy, where his schoolmates made fun of his thick Corsican accent. He was a difficult and reserved child, resentful of his peers...he felt his social inferiority, an inferiority that was constantly emphasized by his wealthier French schoolmates He was, in a few words, an introverted misfit.

The taciturn and moody lieutenant from a middle class family in Corsica continued to feel inferior and resentful at the superior airs and graces of the snobbish young aristocrats who were his fellow officers The antiquated world of hierarchy and rank repelled and disgusted him. Therefore the Revolution came as a godsend, and he welcomed it with open arms. There is no need to doubt the sincerity of his revolutionary feelings at this time. He was merely settling accounts with those who had refused to recognise him and held him back.

Napoleon never had any fixed principles about anything, except his own advancement. His early Republican sympathies may have been genuine but they were certainly tempered with a heavy dose of opportunism. He specialized in currying favour with his superiors in order to climb the ladder of careerist advancement.

Despite his apparent Jacobinism, Napoleon always looked at the masses with distrust. He hated the Paris "mob". His outlook was typical of the petit bourgeois of all epochs - hatred of the upper classes, fear of the masses." The Rise and Fall of Napoleon Bonaparte

Judy writes that Julien woos his maidens the only way he knows how - military conquests. "He will do what he will do and damn the consequences." Just like Napoleon!

Hats, from what I've read, I gather that Napoleon treated his women much the same as we see Julien treating them - as conquests. Many "amours," yes, but always defeat. Even his famous great amour, Josephine, deceived him. It will be interesting to learn where Stendhal is taking us!

Is there doubt among us that Mathilde loves Julien? He asked her for a "guarantee" that she wouldn't withdraw her love if he expressed his true feelings for her. How better can she show him? Hasn't she in fact "ruined herself" for him? Zany, will Julien's response be - "what a song?"

How did he react to her news? Aren't all of his fine ambitions now ruined?

JOAN, as I've tried to say in my previous post last night, there is not always agreement about dates and events, or even charcterizations of historical personages, in on-line references. I have found out and out mistakes more than once.

Take Napolon's background, for example. He was of lower nobility, his father was a lawyer on the island of Corsica. , Thanks to the father's personal standing and background, his two oldest sons got free education in France ! Wealthy they were not with their brood of children. But does that make them 'mediocre' ?

As I also tried to point out, Napoleon did not play a direct part in the Revolution (see timeline). He was more concerned about his family in Corsica, that's why he went back to many times.

There was one incident when in the early eighteen nineties he did quell an uprising in Paris against the Republican government, but in order to explain that, we'd have to name the several successive Republican administrations. Napoleon was a military genius of unsurpassed ambition. He motivated and inspired his men. He brought an end to the revolutionary period, which lasted from 1789 to 1799.

Permit me to say that I do not believe Stendhal conceived Julien after himself. The only parallel is the fact that Stendhal had served in Napoleon's Italian campaign, that he admired Napoleon, and he knew the hypocritical society in which he and his fictional hero lived.

We could glean a lot about Stendhal and his views on women from his essay De L'Amour .

Am rushing for an appointment. More later.

Traude casts doubt on the accuracy of the written portait of Napoleon in Joan's post #727. Too bad, because it sure seems to fit Julien, doesn't it!

Here's another portrait to consider. While absent-mindedly drawing in her album (chapter 19, "The Opera Bouffe"), Mathilde was shocked to discover that she had drawn a portait of Julien. This painting in the Metropolitan Museum is how I imagine Mathilde might have looked while drawing.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/18wa/ho_17.120.204.htm

Is that not the "blonde doll" who Julien later characterizes as a "demon"?

I went to sleep last night, having read half of the assigned reading for the next few days. I was shocked when I found out Mathilde was pregnant. I feel I cannot trust Mathilde, so I immediately wondered if she was really telling the truth or if it was one of her ploys to woo Julien. Clearly I went to sleep thinking this thought because I repeatedly had short dreams during the night in which Mathilde had made it up and was not really pregnant! It was not a very restful night!

This morning, I finished the assigned chapters and I do not think she is faking being pregnant. However, I was heartened to know that her own father does not trust her either, as evident by this quote from the Marquis in Chapter 34:

“Qui s’excuse s’accuse, I distrust Mathilde” (My book kept the French and translates it in a note as “He who apologizes accuses himself.”)

I didn't understand what happened to the Marquis when he was 22. Can anyone help with this?

Joan- You asked did Julien Have a mental illness? Mental Illness can be treated with Medication and is more physiological. Julien suffered from a Personality Disorder which is more a function of upbringing than of brain chemistry.

Of the many possibilities for personality disorders the one that seems to fit him the best would be "Narcissistic". Here are some of the symptoms:

1) Has a grandiose sense of self importance.

2)Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power,brilliance,or IDEAL LOVE.

3)Believes that he is special or unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high status people.

4) Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends.

5)Lacks empathy.

6) Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

And on and on. Only five markers are necessary to make the diagnosis. Julien has that and more.

Although many personality disorders demand attention, the Narcissist especially needs that attention to be admiring.

Judy

I wonder if William Blake's poem, The Tiger, may have been what Stendhal had in mind when he titled chapter 32 - and began it with the story of the English traveller. Here are the last two verses.

When the stars threw down their spears, And water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile His work to see? Did He who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger, tiger, burning bright, In the forests of the night, What immortal hand or eye, Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

Mathilde is both "lamb", and "tiger" (man-eater), whose "symmetry" is irresistable to Julien. He'd be well advised to keep a pistol under his pillow when sleeping with her.

Tigers make good mothers though, so her child might be safe.

The Tiger in the title of Chapter 32 could be toothless.

After all, Julien HAS no guarantee that volatile Mathilde won't change her mind again any time soon ! Now of course there is her pregnancy. That seems to give her a new stability.

But is her "love" for Julien real ? Or is the love merely her 'magnificent obsession' with the glorious history and personages of the de la Mole family of 1688 ?

Stendhal's reference in Chapter 33 is to Molière's comedy Tartuffe . Tartuffe, the protagonist, is a hypocrite who feigns religious piety. This reference lends some lighter aspect to the new turn of events.

A tabouret is an elevated, cushioned stool used at court. It was the place of honor the Marquis had aspired to for Mathilde all along : her elevation to duchess. It was his dream and became hers.

How alike and how devoted father and daughter are is instantly clear when we read that Mathilde confided in her father, rather than her mother (!!), about the pregnancy, and we read that the Marquis was "flattered". Hmmm.

It seems safe to assume - from what we have read - that BOTH Mathilde and Julien are high-strung and easly excitable. Both may be mentally a little off. But Julien, and possibly Stendhal himself, were Romantics - free display of emotions, tears, etc. etc.

KNOX, with respect, I did not "cast doubt" on JOAN's post concering Napoleon.
I merely pointed out that, as helpful a tool as the web is, not every single detail given there is necessarily accurate. I have come across some egregious mistakes in entries about European history and geography, which could easily lead to misconceptions.

When I read the sentence in Chpt 32 about Mathilde being pregnant, I had to read it over again to make sure I saw what I thought I saw. It just suddenly appeared. Stendhal did not lead into this at all and this is no small event. My goodness. I was waiting for it to happen earlier and it didn't, so I really didn't expect it here.

My book is worded: "She discovered that she was enceinte [pregnant] and joyfully informed Julien of the fact.

'Do you doubt me now? Is it not a guarantee? I am your wife for ever.'

This announcement struck Julien with profound astonishment." etc.

"Profound astonishment." I should say so. Surprise! Mathilde seems profoundly astonishingly naive in this segment when she plans to tell her father immediately about her state of affairs, doing her "duty" she tells Julien, "her eyes shining with joy."

I could just picture papa's reaction, papa who has been planning for years for his daughter to marry a duke. Julien, however, is not quite so naive. His reaction is more down-to-earth. Julien tells Mathilde, "But he will pack me off in disgrace." Yeah, I thought, if only Julien would be so lucky!

Needless to say, the marquis is "beside himself," "furious." The poor guy. I had to chuckle when I read all the things the marquis said to Julien - then the sentence: "Julien was afraid of being beaten." Understatement! But Julien does nobly offer the marquis his death.

The melodrama certainly would be real. Oh, my gosh, the quandry! What to do? What to do? I wonder if Stendhal went through anything like this? I can't wait to see what happens!

Did you notice Julien is totally positive the baby is a boy? Of course! What else!?

JoanP, your information about Napoleon is very interesting. I am especially struck by the similar personality traits between Julien and Napoleon. Napoleon's "hatred of the upper classes, fear of the masses" is also very striking. I would never have thought you could "fear" the very people you had chosen to protect and give your life for as your life's mission. Is it normal for revolutionary figures to feel this way?

LauraD, I never thought about the idea that Mathilde might have told a lie about her pregnancy. You might have put your finger or your dreams on something to hear about later.

Already, Julien is talking about the child, like most men, as "his son." He talks as though there isn't a question about it. He will father a son. Would Julien find it impossible to love a daughter?

"Stendhal's reference in Chapter 33 is to Molière's comedy Tartuffe . Tartuffe, the protagonist, is a hypocrite who feigns religious piety. This reference lends some lighter aspect to the new turn of events."

Marni, I had to read the revelation about the pregnancy twice too. I thought my lighting wasn't good and I had misread the line. Throughout this love affair my dull mind never once thought of pregnancy. I guess my mind was busy thinking about ladders, ropes and cropped hair. The pregnancy totally shocked me.

I love your last lines.

"Did you notice Julien is totally positive the baby is a boy? Of course! What else!?"(Marni)

Bonjour, mes amis!

C'est aujourd'hui vendredi! Friday already! Where did the week go? So, Mathilde's pregnancy was a total surprise to all of us! (Hats, I remember your shocked reaction - when you said you had to "go to bed and regroup" after reading Chapter 32 over the weekend.) We had discussed birth control during Julien's affair with Madame de Rênal and then we seemed to forget about it when he took up with Mathilde. Here's my question - Was Mathilde surprised? The two must have known a pregnancy was a possibility!

How pregnant is Mathilde? Don't you find it hard to believe that maman hasn't noticed a change in her appearance as the two trip off to mass each morning?

LauraD - your dream has put the possibility into my head that Mathilde just might not be pregnant at all. She wants Julien. She's not sure of him - he's working the Russian plan to keep her guessing about his true feelings towards her. She dreams of nothing but a life with him. As Traudee points out - the pregnancy gives her "a new stability." But is she so sure of her powers over daddy that she is confident that he will support them? She has destroyed all his dreams for her! Will he accept this turn of events? Does he have it in his power to fix this?

How does Julien react to her announcement? And don't you wonder how Madame de Fervaques will react to the news?

Which do you think means more to Julien - his love for Mathilde or his burning ambition to be someone important? This presents a glitch in his great ambition, doesn't it? No high church position - no bishopric!

I don't trust this woman-in-love either, - Oh, I do believe she WANTS Julien and will stop at nothing to get him. I can see her coming upon the idea of a false pregnancy, Laura. He's so confident that the baby will be a son - I wonder if she didn't tell him that too, Marni! (This before sonograms!)
Does Julien suddenly become gullible and helpless in the hands of this "tiger"?

Knox! William Blake's "Tiger" just may have been known to Stendhal - the dates fit.

"Blake imagines the tiger as the embodiment of God's power in creation: the animal is terrifying in its beauty, strength, complexity and vitality." William Blake - The Tiger

Beautiful, complex - in a word, "terrifying." "Fearful symmetry, indeed!" Mathilde both "lamb", and "tiger. " He doesn't have a chance against this tiger! It's too late for Julien - he didn't keep his "pistol" under his pillow!

Another tiger image Stendhal may have been thinking of - this one by Delacroix, wildly popular in France at this time -

A Young Tiger Playing with its Mother - 1830

Note - no father in the painting...

Judy - the characteristics of the personality disorder you describe fit Julien to a tee...from all I've read, Napoleon also seems to share a good number of them too - I counted at least five.

Hats - You ask whether it is normal for a revolutionary figure to fear the people you have chosen to protect. I don't know the answer to that, but noted the point Traudee made yesterday - "Napoleon did not play a direct part in the Revolution." He was with his family in Corsica and sat out the Revolution.

Traudee - I'll agree, Napoleon has been characterized in many ways in many articles - since his time he has become bigger than life and fair game for anyone examining his personal life, his campaigns, his empire, his fall. Much of the myth surrounding his humble beginnings was played up by Napoleon himself!

Of course you are permitted to say that you believe Stendhal did not "conceive Julien after himself." I believe we established early on when discussing Beyle/Stendhal's autobiography, The Life of Henri Brulard - either in this discussion or in the pre-discussion (there's a link to the pre-discussion in the heading above) - that Stendhal, unhappy with his life at this point, used his protagonist, Julien Sorel to express the character he wished he had been or to explain himself, perhaps? We saw many similar traits that motivate both Stendhal and his character. Now that we are this far along in the book, I can't believe that Stendhal has created a new and improved self in Julien. Maybe it was cathartic for him - maybe he feels he is explaining to the world, or at least to himself why he chose the paths he did.

Here's a site I found interesting that compared all three - Napoleon, Stendhal and Julien-

- *It is not only a judgment of the history Stendhal had lived through, but a subtle and ruthless judgment of himself. “I am Julien,” he said.

- * Julien Sorel is destroyed by the mean unreality of the world in which his Napoleonic campaigns of sex and ambition are planned. But he is destroyed before he starts.

- * Julien’s thoughts are Stendhal’s irony. His own are expressed in Julien’s acts.

- * Julien Sorel is a comic Napoleon, a Bonaparte with frayed cuffs and patched shoes, mocked in Bartholomew Fair." Stendhal/Napoleon/Julien

I just can't leave the site just mentioned without including the following observation. I have been asking myself throughout whether Le Rouge is a tragedy. The obvious answer is yes, but this struck a note with me -

- "To the immature readers of the last century, his story was a tragedy. To men of the world who read it in the twentieth, it is a comedy, but of the grimmest sort. “The world is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think.”

A grim comedy. A black comedy. I can see that - I think.

JoanP, very interesting. "No father" in the painting of the tiger. I am thinking of Julien's relationship with his father.

How is Road King? Are we doing well with our thoughts on the book?

Ah, mes amis! I spent the better part of the morning trying to track an illustration of the tabouret Mathilde's father hopes for his daughter - to no avail - the illustration, I mean. As Traudee describes it - "A tabouret is an elevated, cushioned stool used at court." In different places I found it described as a drum-like affair - with a cushion on it. Still, it doesn't sound very comfortable for a duchess dressed to the nines. I guess everything is relative - the tabouret beats standing! -

"Using one of the most often cited subjects of this code of etiquette are the rules of seating arrangements. The king and queen always had a fauteuil, an armchair to sit upon. Within their presence, no one else was allowed an armchair, excepting another monarch. A chair with a back but no arms was allowed for those closest in rank to the king, such as his brother or children. The tabouret, a padded, drum-shaped stool was awarded to those holding the rank of duchess. Lesser ranking nobility would be expected to stand."

So, what is Stendhal saying about Julien's appeal for advice to Abbé Pirard then? - I'm not sure I believe Stendhal when he ascribes Julien's motives as inspired by Tartuffe. Where else did he have to turn? The man is considering suicide! I can't accept hypocrisy! I think he is desperate.

The abbé counsels marriage as the only solution and repeats this advice to Père de La Mole. Of course the he agrees on principle, but how can the Marquis still harbor his dream of Mathilde taking the tabouret? How could he accomplish this and yet have her marry Julien? I think perhaps the answer might come from his own experience described in chapter 34 LauraD.

Traudee - don't you think Mathilde has given up on the dream - in exchange for living her life as M.Julien Sorel.

Hats - I sense that Road King is with us, don't you?

Yes, I feel he never left.

"To the immature readers of the last century, his (Stendhal) story was a tragedy. To men of the world who read it in the twentieth, it is a comedy, but of the grimmest sort. “The world is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think.”

In the case of The Red and the Black, a tragedy for the young and the romantic and a comedy for the others. Julien's life started in tragedy when he was beaten, unloved and unwanted by every member of his family, rejected, ridiculed and emotionally tortured by high society where he landed by a stroke of luck. The poor man could never have escaped his high intelligence and his unrealistic ambition. That with good looks and his passion for women, it was the perfect recipe for tragedy.

Psychologist today can dig up every unfortunate detail in a child's past that would resurface later to make them either great or mediocre.

Stendhal's Julien could have had some form of mental disorder, who doesn't in some small way, but that is not what makes a great book, it's the ability to describe thought and emotion convincingly and with style.

The title “The Tiger” is very appropriate for Chapter 32. “He had trained it and would caress it, but he always kept a cocked pistol on his table.” Just substitute Julien for “he” and Mathilde for “it.” What a great analogy! I think this is saying that Julien should not completely trust Mathilde because who knows when she may attack, even though she seems to be tamed. I think this must be foreshadowing…

Thanks for the poem connection, Knox.

Ladies,

I've enjoyed our discussion. Your insights greatly enhanced my understanding and appreciation for this extraordinary novel. Thank you for your courtesy and patience.

I realize that I haven't exercised sufficient caution when posting. My comments were too abrupt. I'm sorry.

Adieu.

Oh dear, dear, cher Knox - whatever do you mean? Your remarks too abrupt??? Never, never, always right on the mark! We are so near the end - just days away. We've been spoiled by your insight and ability to see into Stendhal's devices. You so often see what we have missed!

Here's the honest truth - we have been counting on your guidance and participation in the overview when we finish up a week from now. Is there any way we can talk you into changing your mind?

"Too abrupt???" Other commitments are understandable. If you have finished the book and have lost interest in further participation - we'd have to accept that. But, oh, Knox - "too abrupt?" I've combed back through your recent posts and see no signs of anything remotely resembling abruptness.

I know I speak for all of us - we are heartbroken that you are even considering "adieu?"
Can we talk about it? Can we offer you a fresh horse - the finest horse in Alsace to come riding back into our midst?

We are missing you already!!! Please accept OUR apology for making you feel that you are not welcome!

Éloïse, I do understand what you are saying about the unavoidable tragic course Julien appears to be following -

"The poor man could never have escaped his high intelligence and his unrealistic ambition. That with good looks and his passion for women, it was the perfect recipe for tragedy."

Stendhal continues to give us reason to hope things might work out after all - but I think we sense things just aren't going well for the young couple -with a baby on the way. The marquise still has no idea she is about to become a grandmaman, does she?

I believe that in life it is not the problems that come our way, but how we respond to them that makes all the difference. Consider Mathilde! Yes, she wants to be part of her father's dream and become a duchess. She knows that as Mme. Sorel that will not happen. But she wants to marry Julien more than anything - even knowing that he will take part in the coming revolution. (What part will he take?) Things are not that complicated for Mathilde. She isn't going through the angst that torments her father - and Julien.

LauraD - I was interested in your interpretation of the tiger analogy - "Julien should not completely trust Mathilde because who knows when she may attack, even though she seems to be tamed. I think this must be foreshadowing…" Hmm, maybe she is not as amenable to Julien's situation, after all.*

Right now the Marquis is key to the future happiness of the young couple. He can use his considerable influence to fulfill both Julien and Mathilde's ambitions. Don't you see his conflicting desires? His daughter was about to be married to a very acceptable suitor - and could have been seated on that tabouret too. Everything had been going as planned.

The question - can he still have what he has dreamed of - but with Julien as his daughter's husband? Does he have the power to make it happen? He is after all "a man of imagination." Is he the "Man of Spirit" of the title of this chapter? I have been interested in his own relationship with the marquise. In Chapter 34 we get a glimpse into his own experience before/during and after the Revolution...

Here's a side question, apart from the recent excitement...it's about Norbert. Do I remember correctly? Are Norbert and Mathilde the same age? If Mathilde does not become a duchess, what are the changes of Norbert becoming a ...a duke? There is no talk about this. Do you think that's strange?

I'm off to read again the story of Queen Marguerite. I wonder if Mathilde isn't channelling her role model.

tabouret d'accouchement nm birthing stool

if Matilde had married as her father intended, she would have become a duchess by marriage. Norbert would still be Norbert.

Narcissism was formerly known as immaturity (at least as defined by the posted five criteria).

And as Blake ought be viewed as a religious poet, and Stendhal was at best a skeptic, I believe they had somewhat different views of the tiger.

I think I have found the answer to question #2 from Chapter 34, “What happened to the Marquis when he himself was 22? Is this the reason he gave in to Mathilde and got Julien his commission?”

The Marquis is thinking about his past in Chapter 34:

“In these strange circumstances, the salient features of his character, stamped upon it by the events of his younger days, resumed their full sway. The troubles of the Emigration had made him a man of imagination. After he had enjoyed for two years an immense fortune and all the distinctions of the Court, 1790 had cast him into the fearful hardships of the Emigration. This hard school had changed the heart of a man of two and twenty. Actually he was encamped amid his present wealth rather than dominated by it. But this same imagination which had preserved his soul from the gangrene of gold, had left him a prey to an insane passion for seeing his daughter adorned with a fine-sounding title.”

1790 was the time of the French Revolution and the storming of the Bastille. From an article on Wikipedia on the French Revolution, I learned that “the nobles were not assured by [an] apparent reconciliation of King and people. They began to flee the country as émigrés, some of whom began plotting civil war within the kingdom and agitating for a European coalition against France.”

Apparently the marquis had to flee the country during this time. He must have learned through this experience that he preferred to be wealthy. I assume that he would prefer his family to remain part of the nobility and be wealthy, so that is why he gave in to Mathilde.

LAURA, that is it indeed.
In 1789, all nobles became the hunted prey of the masses. Many were guillotined, but many fled to England. (That's where "The Scarlett Pimpernell" will come in !)

King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were not put on the scaffold right way. Rather, the King hoped that his financial woes could be straightened out by his Finance Minister, and established whas was known as the "États Générales". It did not help nor did the form of government last. Both the king and queen were guillotined.

In 1795, the "Directoire" = Directory became the executive power in France. But internal bickering destabilized the country.
In 1799, two of the Directory members, Paul Barras and the Abbé Sièyes (!!), plotted with Napoleon Bonaparte to overthrow their colleagues. The coup de Brumaire was successful.

The Directoire was replaced by the "Consulate", Napoleon was nominated "Consul for Life". He consolidated his power and became the head of the government and the country. In 1804, the members of the Senate voted to give him the title of Emperor.

Thus the ardent Republican and anti-Monarchist became a monarch himself and the founder of his own dynasty, which was short-lived.

KNOX, you must not leave us now. We are so close to the end and you have given us many valuable insights.
I would hate to think that I could possiby have been the cause of your decision and that you perhaps misinterpreted my post # 736 (reflecting your # 730).

We congregate here 24/7 in a spirit of friendship, sre open to others' opinions, grateful for an interpretation that may not have occurred to us - or any other commentary, and enriched by the experience. We do not challenge different views; we do not claim that ours is the "right one".

Nor can the absolute truth be found on the net - there are too many variations, and, yes, inaccuracies. That's why I would never presume to cast doubt on anyone's interpretation here.

Please reconsider your decision and stay with us.

When I first read your message, I hoped adieu did not mean adieu as in a final goodbye. Please, please remain with us. Your comments are wonderfully insightful. We are glad you are here treating us to your comments. You must stay. You encourage us to keep going. Stay! What's Francais for "stay?" Please remain and let us know by continuing to give your comments.

Bonjours, mes amis! The story is quickly coming to a close - but if you thought Mathilde's pregnancy was the dénouement in which all Julien's ambitious dreams are dashed - as well has Marquis' hopes for the his daughter's tabouret (in exchange for a birthing stool, as Zany put it.

) - just wait for what Stendhal has in store next!

Zany - see, I had assumed all along that the de La Mole fortune and the titles came from the Marquise de la Mole. So I thumbed back through the chapters to Abbé Pirard's description of the family before Julien left for Paris.

"Mme. la Marquise - a big blond woman, pious, proud - daughter of the old Duc de Chaulnes, whose ancesters went on crusades."

I don't know anything about succession - what title would the daughter of a duke have - would she be a duchess? Did the Marquis de La Mole marry up, marry a duchess?

LauraD - thank you for addressing the Marquis de La Mole's background. As I understand it, he was once a wealthy man with "all the distinctions of the Court" - before he was forced to emigrate. Do you suppose that he was able to reclaim fortune or title during the Restoration when he returned? Or did he marry money and title? He is described as man of imagination - much like Julien, perhaps? He had to make a new life for himself using his wits.

Traudee - thank you for the post-Revolution history. It's interesting to note Napoleon's rise - all the way to emperor, isn't it? Another man of imagination who relied on his wits and ambition - another emigré who returns to glory, though short-lived.

We don't hear much about the de La Mole marriage. He seems to want to keep Madame de la Mole content by opening their home to her salons. I was interested to reread certain passages - in the scene at the Duke de Metz's ball, Julien observes the Marquis as a man "on good social terms with all the best in every party. He can't possibly lose his position." Is Julien saying that if there is another Revolution, the Marquis will not lose his position because he has friends on both sides?

"If Matilde had married as her father intended, she would have become a duchess by marriage. Norbert would still be Norbert." Yes, I see that M. le Marquis de Croisenois will become a duke and that will make Mathilde a duchess in this Court. But what will Norbert be besides a squadron leader in the hussars? Abbé Pirard described Norbert as "commander of a squadron of hussars and future peer of France." Do you think there is a connection between squadron leader and advancement to peer of France? Is this the reason the Marquis procures a commission in the hussars for Julien?

A long way of saying what LauraD said so succinctly - "The Marquis would prefer his family to remain part of the nobility and be wealthy, so that is why he gave in to Mathilde." Isn't everything turning out just as Mathilde has dreamed? Julien's happy at the turn of events too, isn't he? Well, isn't he?

I did read the parts describing Mathilde's infatuation with Queen Marguerite de Navarre yesterday. - There are some eye-openers, but will hold off a bit. (We've got an eyeopener to talk about today when we find the tragic figure of Madame de Rênal on her knees in the church!) I haven't finished the book, but can't believe we've heard the last from Mathilde, can you? She's not the type that will go quietly into the good night.

Hats - "rester" is a good word for "stay" or "remain" - Restez avec nous, notre Knox!

I confess I am utterly mystified by the effect Mme de Rênal's letter had on M. de La Mole, So Julian slept with an older woman years before. Surely this can only enhance his reputation (except with the U.S. voter).

I have to say that I was startled and shocked at the turn of events in these chapters.There must have been hints that I missed . Since I followed the plot very closely I must have missed the hints given in the forwards to the chapters or in things "French" that I was not familiar with. I spent some time looking up some of the references that i payed so little attention to. This is basic info. that some of you may be familiar with,but for me, it was either new or material I had forgotten.

i)Tartuffe-(chapter 13)- Tartuffe is a comedy by Moliere (1624-1673). It was first performed in 1664 at the fetes held in Versaille and was almost immediately censored by those who claimed to be devoutly religous. The King, Louis the XIV eventually censored the play which deals with religous hypocrisy.

The plot : Orgon, a very wealthy man, is convinced that Tartuffe is a man of great religous zeal. In fact he is a scheming hypocrite. He gains control of Orgons finances and family and is about to marry Orgons daughter, when he is exposed. In the end he is condemmed to prison.

2)Don Juan (Many chapt. headings.)- Based on a 14th century Spanish Nobleman and Libertine. Don Juan either rapes or seduces a young girl of noble birth and kills her father. He later finds a statue of the father and invites it home for dinner. The statue asks to shake Don Juan's hand and when he does, drags him to hell.

in Hell,the devil gives him a jesters suit.. He refuses to accept the suit. The Devil says if he can name one of the 1000 women he seduced he will not have to become a jester. Don Juan can't name a single woman, even the one who loved him most.. He finallt says,"Give me the suit".

The most well known literary versions of this story are those of the English poet Byron and the opera by Mozart(Don Giovvanni).

Schiller (1759-1805)- (Many headings)-Schiller was a german poet, philosopher and dramatist. During his last years he worked with Goethe on poems and stories. Their works are known as "Weimar Classicism".

Goethe (1749-1832) At this point I became exhausted and decided to eat lunch.

Judy

Unbelievable! I think it was revenge that led Julien to shoot at Mme. de Renal. His mind was totally angered at the words written in the letter. Perhaps, Mme. de Renal saw Julien's true character too well. It is even more horrible where the shooting takes place. He shoots at Mme de Renal while she is praying in the church. Does Julien have no regard for what is sacred? She might very well have been praying for Julien's soul.

Do not expect any weakness on my part. I have
taken my revenge. I have deserved death and
here I am. Pray for my soul.(Schiller)

More surprises in the coming chapters regarding the psychological development of the characters.

No, JUDY, the e reader could not have foreseen what would come exactly because everything waas constantly in flux. Growth, physical and emotional, can never be predicted. There were no broad hints by the author, maybe a few signs : Julien's entering the empty church in Verrières before meeting Madame de Rênal for the first time; Mathilde's obsessive preoccupation with her ancestral history.

And, the wooing of Madame de Fervaques and a love triangle -- all over before it began. It was never meant to !

The Marquis, faced with the loss of his daughter unless he recognizes Julien as her hussband and an equal , finally does what he sees as most expedient : Through father Pirard, he gives Julien money, makes up a noble name for him that confers knighthood on Julien, and sends him to Strasbourg to join the Fifteenth Regiment of the Hussars as Lieutenant (never mind that Julien was never a Sub-Lieutenant), in other words the military position Julien always coveted ! All his dreams suddenly fulfilled !

Then comes the Whirlwind ("Storm" in my translation). Everything collapses like a house of cards. Can he still count on friends and defenders, even if he himself thinks there is no defense for what he did ?

Yes, JOAN, Julien feels genuine remorse and (though initially thinking of escaping to nearby Switzerland with his monstrous goaler) he does not want to mount a defense. He proclaims that the crime was premeditated.

However, knowing him by now, we, the readers, can't believe that.
We know him to be hot-tempered and impetuous. Too agitated to think logically, he was in no condition to plan methodically and "in cold blood" what he would do. His reaction was spontaneous, in my humble opinion.

Let's see what happens to his ambition, his pride, his reasoning. The affection he feels for his unborn child (a son, of course!) is real, and so is his concern for the child's future.
Does he have any wishes for himself ? Well, does he ??

JOAN, none of this is comedic in the true sense of the word. But there is, we know, a fine line between comedy and tragedy, between reason and insanity. Stendhal satirized the society he lived in, and some of the actions of the characters are melodramatic. Even so, the emotions are real and they move us, nolens volens (willy nilly).

I've forgotten but what was it that Julien found in the church at the beginning of the book? Was it a foreshadowing of what has happened??

I find myself very dissatisfied after reading these chapters. Julien shooting Madame de Renal just doesn’t fit with the book well, in my opinion.

“A judge appeared in the prison. ‘I occasioned death by premeditation,’ said Julien to him” (Ch. 36).

I don’t think the shooting was premeditated.

“’Don’t you see,’ said Julien to him with a smile, ‘that I am making myself out as guilty as you can possibly desire’” (Ch. 36)

Even Julien knows it wasn’t premeditated.

“’Astonishing,’ he said to himself, ‘I thought that she had destroyed my future happiness for ever by her letter to M. de la Mole, and here I am, less than a fortnight after the date of that letter, not giving a single thought to all the things that engrossed me then’” (Ch. 36).

The shooting seems so senseless to me.

It is also senseless to me that the priest Mme. de Renal confessed to seemed to "force" her to write the letter. I get the impression that Mme. de Renal's feelings were totally opposite from what she wrote in the letter. Was Stendahl trying to prove the power of the church in dividual's lives?

I am also bothered by the fact for awhile Julien was sure he had murdered Mme. de Renal. Did he mean to murder her? Did he just want to injure her? I don't see Julien as acting with any regret.

Bonjour, mes amis!
So many unanswered questions!
Do you think we find these chapters "dissatisfying" after reading these chapters - "mystified" - because suddenly the characters are inaccessible to us?
Have we become so accustomed to the innermost thoughts of these characters, that we are left strangely in the dark as to their motivations? We hear not a word from Mme. de Rênal (except for the letter, which we learn has been dictated for her to write) and we have only Julien's actions, with no accompanying comment as to what led him to this despicable act. Traude, I only hear the silence - I am not able to find any expression of "genuine remorse." Can you point it out to me, please?

Don't you wonder why the letter was sent to M. de la Mole? What could have prompted Madame de Rênal's new confessor to force her to write the letter? Isn't this a violation of priest/penitent confidence?

hats, I'd be interested to hear more about why you believe Julien shot Madame de Rênal out of revenge. Hasn't he always had such tender memories of her - always comparing Mathilde (unfavorably) to his "first love." Why would he try to kill her - without speaking to her one last time? Could it be that he realizes he has ruined her, now that the story is out - a mercy killing maybe?
Yet, we do have to consider Shiller's quote you bring us, hats

Do not expect any weakness on my part. I have taken my revenge. I have deserved death and here I am. Pray for my soul.(Schiller)

Hats the fact that Julien shoots her in the church is significant, I believe. Why did he not shoot her in the garden - in her room? It seems he needed to publicly respond to her letter. I believe Stendhal chose the church for a reason, Does he blame the church for the situation?

Or, does he shoot her in the church, realizing that she is now in the state of grace, having said her prayers and is ready for her place in heaven? Hats - I think he shot with intent to kill, to murder her to end her misery.

Kidsal - I had forgotten the scene in this very church in Verrières until you reminded me. Wait! Didn't Stendhal write that this is a new church? Can this be significant? A new church building, a new regime since the time of Abbé Chélan? Oh, and the cleric who forced her to write the letter - is new too. (He is the one who is saying the mass at the time of the shooting.)

Can anyone remember the paper Julien read that he found on the lecturn.? He thought he saw blood on the floor, and he saw some sort of notice about a fellow whose name was an anagram of his own? Yes, yes, Kidsal - I believe you are on to something. I'll tell you why I am excited about this - I find that Stendhal just might revisit some of the unanswered questions from earlier in the book. I had begun to think he would not do that.

Judy - that is fascinating - the repeated theme you were able to identify by taking a closer look at the references and epigrams. The seducer always gets his just punishment in the end as he is dragged off to prison, death and eventually - HELL. Is Julien admitting his past wrong, saying "Give me the suit"?

Zany - M. de La Mole is incensed by the very idea that Mathilde seduced Julien. He made much of this in an earlier chapter. He never accepted that fact. And now he learns from the letter that this is Julien's modus operandi - he has seduced other women in his patrons' households in the past. Now he has the proof he needs that Julien is the seducer, his daughter a victim. (In my heart of hearts, I think the man may have seduced the marquise to advance himself in the past - and recognizes himself in Julien. That to me, would explain his reaction to the letter.)

Laura - I'd like to hear more about why you think the shooting wasn't premeditated. He purchased the pistol (didn't he already have pistols - was he creating evidence to make it look like premeditation?) Didn't you think Julien's behavior has odd following the shooting? He seemed to be in a trance, maybe it was shock immediately following the shooting. What was that about? Was it an act? Did he know what he was doing when he shot her?

And doesn't Mme. de Renal seem very forgiving. After being shot, she pays for Julien's comfort and good treatment in jail. Her feelings seem so immediate. She must truly love this man. I can not imagine a man shooting me, even if I loved him, then, immediately going to his aid. First, I would have to pout, slap his face and do some grumbling or throw a glass. Is Stendahl truly in touch with the behavior of man vs. woman?

I am also terribly interested in the identity of Julien's father too. When will we know the truth about Julien's birth? I feel this truth will dramatically change Julien. Will the truth change Julien's feelings about Napoleon?

I too am also disappointed reading the last chapters thinking that Standhal perhaps only wanted to end the book on a very dramatic note. There are too many loose ends and that annoys me. Why is there no mention about Julien's thoughts of his military career as he commits this obviously irrational act? Napoleon would never have traded his career for a woman.

Why did Mme de Rênal accept to write that letter to M de la Mole? for revenge? I didn't perceive her as a vengeful woman, she would have known Julien's future would be ruined.

Julien and Mathilde seduced each other, one was no more at fault than the other but after the first passion was over, he couldn't help but remember that Madame de Rênal who was a far superior woman than Mathilde, I don't mean that she was more intelligent but she had higher morals than Mathilde who was calculating even when she was in love.

Julien's father stayed true to himself even to the very end. He wanted money from his son for "room and board", so to speak since he was born. Imagine asking a son to give back the money it cost to raise him? I found that absolutely despicable. No, I don't think Julien was the natural son of an aristocrat. He was just not like his father and his brothers.

Mme de Renal's relationship with her priest was one of a lower power to a higher power. The priest is young and naive. She is not young but still naive. It is not a disclosure of confidence of penitent to priest since the lady HERSELF revealed the facts. The Priest told her what to do and she did it . Perhaps she sent the letter out of jealousy since this woman truly loves Julien. She hopes to deter the marriage and would prefer Julien lost and shamed rather than married to another.or, perhaps, the priest told her that what she had done was a mortal sin that could only be assuaged by revealing it to others. The power of the church's servants to make mistakes is what Stendhal is getting at. The pain and suffering that is caused to people for their sins is supposedly deserved. However when we know the people involved we may think differently. The suffering that is caused to the innocent believers is what is pointed out a bit too prominently in these chapters. The fine line between melodrama and satire is indeed crossed at this point.

ÉLOÏSE, I agree. Julien's brute of a father was a very small man to the very end. Is it any wonder Julien didn't want him to come ?

JOAN, some answers to your questions are in the latter part of Chapter 36, titled "Melancholy Details" in my translation.

When the jailer tells him that Madame de Rênal was NOT mortally wounded, he falls on his knees and weeps.

"In this supreme moment he believed in God. What matter the hypocrisy of the priests ? Can they detract in any way from the truth and sublime majesty of God ?
"Only then did Julien begin to repent of the crime he had committed. etc. etc. "

In a later, longer paragraph toward the end of Chapter 36, which begins with "He did not pause to thnk any furthr on this matter.", we read

"I'll think about that after the sentence, he said to himself. He did not find life at all tedious, he was considering everything from a new point of view, he had done (sic) with ambition, he very seldom thought of Mademoiselle de la Mole (!!!). Remorse was very much in his mind, often bringing before his eyes the image of Madame de Rênal, above all in the silence of he night ..."
(next paragraph, second sentence)
I thought that by her letter to M. de la Mole she (Madame) had destroyed my future happiness, and less than a fortnight after the date of that letter, I no longer give a thought to what at that time occupied my mind." (emphasis mine)

Mathilde appears in Besançon, conspicuous in her Parisian clothes, loaded with money, to buy Julien's freedom, exoneration, or whatever. Fouqué is willing to sell house and home and all else to help Julien escape. The bribed jailers make life more comfortable for Julien.

And Julien ? He wants no part of it! We are witnessing a radical change in him.

Julien becomes emotional during Father Chélan's visit because the loyal abbé, one of his first mentors, is visibly enfeebled in body and mind by old age. Julien does not want to age like that.

HATS, it was the Marquius who first encouraged (perhaps planted) the rumors that Julien could be the natural son of an illustrious personage. HE made up the name. It was a put-up job, as we'd call that today. The idea of his daughter being married to a commoner was quite simply impossible for him to bear. He worried about 'what will people say' ? The question can still be disturbing in the 21st century.

ZANY, I regret the delayed answer. Here it is :

Alsace was French at the time of Stendhal and in the period depicted in R&B, in which Julien Sorel is sent to join the Fifteenth Regiment of the Hussars based in Strasbourg (chapter 35).

Lorraine joined France after the death (in 1766) of the last Duke of Lorraine, Stanislas Leszczynski.

The Duke, born in 1677 in Lwów, Poland, was a former King of Poland who lost his country but, according to the Peace Treaty of Vienna in 1738, was allowed to keep his royal titles and was given the provinces of Lorraine and Bar for life.
He was (also) the father-in-law of King Louis XV of France.

I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.

Kidsal's post about Julien's visit to the old church in Verrières sent me back to the early chapter (Book I, Chapter 5) to see exactly what was on that scrap of paper - that sent Julien running from the church...

" 'Details for the execution and last moments of Louis Jenrel, executed at Besançon on the ---'
The paper was torn. On the other side were the first words of a line. 'The first step...'

I've got a footnote that informs us that Louis Jenrel is an anagram of Julien Sorel. What do you think of that? . When I first read kidsal's post I was excited that Stendhal was about to tie up loose ends. Now I'm not so sure.

Let's be very careful for the rest of the week, keeping in mind that some have not finished the book - have exhibited great restraint. (hard to believe, isn't it?)

Some of us had not read about Julien's meeting with Père Sorel...or that Mathilde came to town (though we are expecting her) - or that Stendhal did not tie up loose ends. Please try hard not to comment beyond Chapter 37 until Wednesday, d'accord? I'll copy the discussion schedule from the heading for the rest of this week here in case you missed it -

Book II -	DATES
Chapters 35 - 37	June 3 - June 5
Chapters 38 - 40	June 6 - June 8
Chapter 41 - The Trial	June 9

~ Off to consider all of your posts while attempting to figure out why Julien shot his first love...Right now I'm feeling that he shot her out of a sense of guilt. Judy's post summarizing the epigrams - all point to the fact that the seducer always gets his due (Hell). When Julien read the letter, he knew he was guilty and could not marry Mathilde. He seemed to regret more what he had done to M. de La Mole than the fact that he had ruined Mathilde.

JOAN, please accept my apologies.

Is it permissible to insert here some information given in the introduction of my translation? It may answer some of our questions regarding the Church and priests.

Stendhal gives a dark enough picture of the Church of his day; his allegations, however, are supported by Catholic evidence. The alliance of 'throne and altar', a natural but unfortunate result of the suffering of nobles and clergy alike during the Revolution, became under Charles X the instrument of a kind of holy war against "atheist" liberals. (Many of them, as it happened, were devout Catholics.)

Congrégations, societies of prominent laymen, were established under the direction of the clergy in many of the large towns. Though formed ostensibly in the interests of religion, they acted as a kind of secret police in the interest of the Ultras.

The Jesuits, who had been expelled from France in 1757, returned in full force with the Restoration. They were zealous supporters of absolute monarchy, and their influence was great in the Congrégations. The Jansenists were a small minority of the clergy, distinguished by their unorthodox views on certain points of doctrine, the puritanical austerity of their lives, and their refusal to mix religion with politics. They were particularly hated by the Jesuits, whose quarrel with them had begun when Jansen published his Augustinus (1640), attacking Jesuit doctrine and methods.

Sendhal accepts the popular identification of Jesuit with hypocrite and represents the two upright priests in his book (Father Chélan and Father Pirard) as Jamsemosts.

Regarding the clergy and their'woodlands'.
Before the Revolution, the Church in France drew most of its wealth from large tracts of forest land. At the Restoration the clergy hoped these lands would be restored, but they were retained by the Crown. Reference to this, their greatest grievance, is made at the secret meeting, the details of which Julien records.

My book has 45 chapters, with 41 being titled The Trial. From Chapter 41 until the end of the book would be 30 pages in my book. Are we to finish to the end for June 9?

I think I have changed my mind on whether or not Julien had premeditated shooting Madame de Renal. Upon arriving in Verrieres, he went directly to the local gun shop and bought the pistols and then went directly to the church. Upon rereading, I assume that he thought about shooting her during his journey since he went directly to the gun shop. However, I guess I can’t be sure of that. The time from the purchase of the guns until the shooting was so short that the shooting did not seem premeditated. Moreover, when Julien said to the judge that he “occasioned death by premeditation,” it seemed to me that Julien was not telling the entire truth, but was exaggerating his actions to be sure that he will be put to death. Maybe I am back to thinking it was not necessarily premeditated. Could it be that arriving in Verrieres, he became emotionally overwhelmed and just then decided to shoot Madame de Renal? Maybe…

Right after the shooting he was not coherent.

“He was taken to the prison. They went into a room where irons were put on his hands. He was left alone. The door was doubly locked on him. All this was done very quickly, and he scarcely appreciated it at all. “’Yes, upon my word, all is over,’ he said aloud as he recovered himself. ‘Yes the guillotine in a fortnight … or killing myself here.”

Then he recovers his senses, or so the book states, and decides his fate for himself. He then seems to work toward achieving this fate he decided for himself by telling the judge how the murder was premeditated. Julien is very goal oriented, isn’t he?

Whoa, LauraD, thank you for alerting me to the text differences in different translations. I'm using the Norton Critical edition which has the words "The End" printed at the conclusion of "The Trial" - chapter 41. That's the one chapter planned for our June 9 discussion.

Can you tell me the names of the four chapters following chapter 41 in your translation? I will have to make a quick trip to the library this afternoon to get "the rest of the story." I feel cheated by the Norton Critical!

- "Right after the shooting he was not coherent."
LauraD, Julien was not coherent after the shooting - nor was he coherent before. Did you notice at the gun shop he "had great difficulty making the gunsmith understand that he wanted a pair of pistols." And before that, he had attempted to write a note to Mathilde, but could manage only "illegible scrawls".

Eloise, perhaps there was "no mention about Julien's thoughts of his military career" because, as you say, he was committing an "obviously irrational act." He was out of his mind!

I agree with you, LauraD - there doesn't seem to be "premeditation" - or any other kind of "mediation." When he comes to, as if from sleepwalking, he is himself again and realizes what he has done. The interior monologue begins again as he considers the options available to him. (death by guillotine for premeditated murder or suicide)

If in fact he had killed Madame de Rênal, I think of murder by reason of insanity. I really don't think he was fully aware of what he was doing - though I do agree now that he wanted revenge on the person who had destroyed the fulfillment of his greatest ambition. (When you think of it, what had he really accomplished except to make Mathilde fall in with him?)

Don't you see him rushing off blindly to silence the truth that Madame had written in her letter? He had betrayed his sponsor once more and ruined the woman most precious to him - again.

I can just imagine the scene - the entire congregation present as the madman, waving his pistols fires into their midst...hitting one of them in the head! And then he begins to run out with the rest of them, getting trampled as he flees with them, leaving the injured on the floor of the church. Does this sound like a premeditated scenario to you?

Traudee, I see no remorse at all. Had he killed her, as he believed he had, do you think it would have come? As you say, it wasn't until a few days later when he heard that the wounds weren't fatal does he repent! Hope is restored - she will live to forgive him - and to love him.

hats, it appears she already has forgiven him as she bribes the jailer to be kind to him. I'm looking for the passage where she says she no longer wanted to live, her idea of bliss would be do die by his hand. I'm not surprised you find it difficult to understand such melodrama... Perhaps it's because we don't live at a time when open rebellion, revolution is thick in the air, the guillotine is a quick solution for anything perceived as criminal or threatening, dueling, swordplay, pistols...

So today we consider Julien's fate. What does Julien want? That's not clear - the internal dialogue, arguments have begun again. Suicide? Death sentence? Guillotine? Escape? It's difficult to know what Julien wants because he changes like quicksilver. He always has. He usually ends up making a rash decision - or letting circumstances make the decision for him. He almost never lets concern for others enter into his thought process.

Funny how he now finds thoughts of Mathilde "tiresome." Doesn't want to speak to her, ever again. What of his precious son who meant so much to him? As Éloïse writes, Madame de Rênal is a superior woman in his estimation. The whole series of events has distanced Julien from his passionate affair with Mathilde and now his thoughts are only of Madame de Rênal.

Julien does seem to have a support group...but the person he had depended on for guidance has failed him...simply by being too old to help. Not only physically, but spiritually as well. Julien was his great hope for the future of the Church. Julien has failed. He can do nothing but weep. I see those tears as ominous as the screech owl in Chapter 37. Thank you for describing the difference between the Jansenists and the Jesuits, Traudee. The young cleric was certainly a Jesuit, the old priest a Jansenist. Judy, yes, Stendhal is walking a fine line between melodrama and satire here. What is Abbé Frilair's motivation to help Julien? Is it that land deal with M. de La Mole still?

Will be gone for the day - am looking forward to your interpretations this evening - also, will you please check your translation and let it be known here whether you have more chapters following chapter 41, "The Trial"?

I am using the B&N Classic series. I know someone else in the group is, but I am not sure who. Anyway, my chapters after Chapter 41 do not have titles. There are four chapters after 41 in my book. My book ends with:

THE END

TO THE HAPPY FEW

From the beginning of my Chapter 41 until the end of my book is 33 pages. Maybe other people's Chapter 41s are longer than mine.

BTW, I am having a display problem with my computer, but should be able to use my son's laptop while he is at school!

Joan, I feel that Norton Critical has truncated the novel of it's most important part and that cannot be forgiven in my estimation. The 42nd to the 45th chapters are packed with surprises where every word is either poetic or shocking even when situations seemed comical to me sometimes. We get answers to some of our questions and the way Stendhal contrived the plot to keep us in suspense until the very end makes him a master story teller who could have written his book in the 21st century.

I have The World Classics edition out out by Oxford edited by Catherine Slater. Chapter forty-one is The Trial. I have been thinking of my book as a Penguin. I don't know why.

Thanks, both of you! When I went to count the pages in "The Trial" Chapter 41, I now see that "The Trial" chapter includes chapters 42, 43, 44 and 45. These four chapters have no names, but are included under "THE TRIAL" - no "To the Happy Few" - Éloïse, does Stendhal use that title in French?

Hats - if you look within "The Trial" I'll bet you find the missing four chapters.

LauraD - maybe we'll divide up those chapters - give me a day or two to look over them. I hate to speed through the finale, have you noticed?

CHAPITRE XLV is my last chapter. It is untitled.
CHAPITRE XLI LE JUGEMENT

Like the astronaut who drove to Houston, Julian rode on horseback for at least a day in order to attempt to murder his former lover. Only the other day a 23-yr old Sikh was apprehended at LAX as he attempted to flee after allegedly murdering his 19-yr old girlfriend. Pride justifies neither murder nor assault.

"Napoleon would never have traded his career for a woman." Josephene was extremely unpopular, but Napoleon was willing to risk his own popularity to be with her.

"Why did Mme de Rênal write that letter to M de la Mole?" Because her priest told her to. Subconsciously, perhaps, she wanted to prevent Julian's marriage as she was still in love with Julian. Either way, she did not think the consequences through.

"Julien and Mathilde seduced each other, one was no more at fault than the other." Something to think about.

"he couldn't help but remember that Madame de Rênal who was a far superior woman than Mathilde," I doubt if Julian ever made such a comparison. I know I've never compared a a present love with a past one.

"No, I don't think Julien was the natural son of an aristocrat. He was just not like his father and his brothers." D'accord.

Thanks, Zany...no titles after "Le Jugement" - in Stendhal's French. Le Jugement= The Trial in the English translation - in all of them?

So. You don't buy temporary insanity. I don't think the jury will either. How about jealousy? That a jury might understand. Julien would have to be jealous of Madame de Rênal though - and that's probably unbelievable in this small town.

Or. Did Julien respond to the attack as a soldier would - and jump to defend his name from the enemy without giving it any thought. Only when he "comes to" and realizes that he has shot his former love does he show any remorse. It was the kind of remorse where one expects forgiveness, wasn't it? He wants her to forgive him and love him again.

Any thoughts on the dungeon? - is it significant that Julien is allowed to stay in the tower rather than a dungeon below ground? My first thought was ladder - and ladder=escape.

JOAN. my French text contains 45 chapters. Chapter 41 is "Le Jugement", as ZANY has indicated above; chapters 42-45 are UNtitled.

Margaret Shaw, the translator of the English Penguin Edition, has taken it upon herself to add these titles:

Chapter 42 The Condemned Cell
Chapter 43 Old Love Renewed
Chapter 44 Where Lies Truth ?
Chapter 45 The Last Encounter

I'll carefully compare the translation with the original text to see if this translator has omitted anything. That is unlikely, in my humble opinion.

Joan, the 41st chapter is titled LE JUGEMENT and chapters 42,43,44,45 have not title. The last word in my version is: "enfants.

I too have the Barnes & Noble edition with the four untitled chapters.I have kept to the schedule but I wonder if there is different content in our different editions?

Be that as it may , there is a footnote, written by Stendhal, at the end of my edition : "The inconvenience of the reign of public opinion is that though, of course, it secures liberty, it meddles with what it has nothing to do with-private life, for example. Hence the gloominess of America and England. In order to avoid infringing on private life, the author has invented a little town-Verrieres, and when he had need of a bishop, a jury, an assize court, he placed all this in Besancon, where he has never been."

Another point I want to make, or rather a question, since I am unsure of the answer: Was there such a decision, in those days as "Guilty by reason of insanity"? Was there even an Asylum or Jail for such prisoners as those ? Was French Law the same as British Law of the times ? And last but not least : Did Julien wish to die?

Julien is a fictional character (I keep reminding myself) , a puppet worked by Stendhal. Juliens confusion as to the outcome of his actions makes us care for him even more than before. He is not a hardened criminal but a confused young man who is so impulsive that he destroys his own life and potential. So many young men in real life have done this that the sadness we feel is not only a reflection of the fictional characters act but of the many young men who fill this pattern in their too real and too short lives.

judy

I definitely think Julien's attack on Mme de Renal was premeditated, although he was in a highly agitated state at the time. And I think the reason he shot her was because she put a blight on his honor. His honor was the personal asset he valued above all else.

Julien was highly excited after Mathilde's father arranged for his marriage and promotion. Stendhal tells us in Chpt 35 "Julien was intoxicated with ambition....He thought about nothing except fame and his son." Then everything went down the tubes because of Mme de Renal's letter which the marquis had sought out. And her letter was so very unexpected and shocking.

Mathilde read to Julien from her father's letter in which he stated Julien seduced her for her money. This was the worst thing of all - worse than losing his newly acquired commission and his marriage. Mme de Renal had soiled his honor.

Immediately after he found this out, Julien rushed off to Verrieres where he stopped at a gunsmith's and ordered a PAIR OF PISTOLS. LOADED. He wanted to ensure that if he missed with his first shot, he would have another shot. He was going for the kill.

Then Julien went immediately to the church where he found Mme de Renal. He knew she was there. His arm trembled so violently "that he was at first unable to execute his project." His project. This was premeditated, a project, and meant to be murder. And he shot her very deliberately. Twice.

I took a book out from the New Book section of the library - Fatal Purity - Robespierre and the French Revolution by Ruth Scurr. Perfect timing to find it there. I wanted to learn more about the French Revolution and turmoil of the times. It seems Robespierre was one of the architects of the Reign of Terror. Quite interesting so far, although not written with the style of a McCullough - somewhat drier.

http://www.amazon.com/Fatal-Purity-Robespierre-French-Revolution/dp/0805079874

ÉLOÏSE. Indeed, the last word in the French original is "enfants."

The basis is always the original text. Foreign readers do not know what liberties different translators may have taken with any text, any book.

The translator of my Penguin edition clearly ADDED titles for the UNTITLED chapters 42-45 - titles the author did NOT PROVIDE, which may well have been deliberate on his part. Why did she do that ? Who knows ?

Stendhal is following his own plan for his hero. Irrespective of whether the stabbing was premeditated or not, Julien thinks he is guilty and insists on punishment.

MARNI, I'll be glad to share information given in the introduction of my translation on French law and Julien's trial.

But since JOAN has asked us not to divulge developments prematurely, I'll wait until the proper time.

At this time Julien has lost all hopes of fulfilling the brilliant career he had hoped for himself trying to walk in Napoleon's footsteps. His deception was too bitter to want to live any longer.

His fast rise in high society and his easy conquests of beautiful women gave him false hopes that the road to notoriety and power was going to be easy. But his lack of experience of the intrigues of high society and the church made him inadequate in dealing adequately with the problems that were bound to come along the way. The infamous letter was just enough to send him in a fury of revenge he couldn't control.

Had Julien been smart in such matters he would have noticed at once that the words in the letter were not those of his beloved but those of a third person bent on destroying him.

I have mixed feelings about the honesty of Mathilde claiming she loves him in spite of the other women. I don't think she can shed her up bringing so easily and I lean more strongly on the side of Mme de Rênal's forgiveness for having been the target of Julien's fury. I feel she forgave him and regretted having sent that letter written against her will.

Merci for checking for the final chapters in your editions, tout le monde! It appears we ALL have the final five chapters, except some translators (Margaret Shaw is one) have assigned titles Stendhal did not provide!

Chapter 42 The Condemned Cell
Chapter 43 Old Love Renewed
Chapter 44 Where Lies Truth ?
Chapter 45 The Last Encounter

I've pencilled in those titles into my own copy. Let's focus on Chapter 41 on June 9 and 10 and then the aftermath of the Trial, Le Jugement - on June 11.

Traudee writes - "Stendhal is following his own plan for his hero. Irrespective of whether the stabbing was premeditated or not, Julien thinks he is guilty and insists on punishment." And Éloïse - "At this time Julien has lost all hopes of fulfilling the brilliant career he had hoped for himself trying to walk in Napoleon's footsteps. His deception was too bitter to want to live any longer." This is the case, isn't it? Julien has given up and is not cooperating with efforts to secure his freedom.

But Judy's brings Stendhal's own words - "The inconvenience of the reign of public opinion is that though, of course, it secures liberty." I still can't predict what the jury will decide - the criminal who claims his guilt and demands the guillotine - or public opinion. Will the jury be swayed by public opinion - and the demands of the victim for his freedom?

Judy - I can't find much on French law in the 19th century - but I did find this article.

"In the 18th century, the legal standards for the insanity defense were varied. Some courts looked to whether the defendant could distinguish between good and evil, while others asked whether the defendant "did not know what he did."By the 19th century, it was generally accepted that insanity was a question of fact, which was left to the jury to decide." Guilty by reason of insanity

In the same article the concept of "reduced capacity" is mentioned. I think "reduced capacity" better describes Julien's wild ride to the church in Verrières, don't you? Will the jury see it this way? (Thank you Traudee for holding off with notes of Julien's trial until we have all read that chapter.)

"He is not a hardened criminal but a confused young man who is so impulsive that he destroys his own life and potential." Judy
"I definitely think Julien's attack on Mme de Renal was premeditated, although he was in a highly agitated state at the time." Marni

A combination of public opinion and friends in high places just may keep our Julien from the guillottine! Marni - I followed the link to the Robespierre book - a complicated man. Look forward to hearing how balanced treatment of this bloody period and your understanding of the man behind it. This information will surely heigthen the drama in The Scarlet Pimpernel discussion, which I'm really looking forward to - and hope you all consider joining us in September.

Next - the scene we've all been waiting for - Mathilde's grand entrance! (I cannot wait to see the movie! This scene must have been a show-stopper!)

Éloïse - "I have mixed feelings about the honesty of Mathilde claiming she loves him in spite of the other women." I have the same problem understanding her, and yet I wasn't at all surprised to find her here in Julien's cell, rather than home crying on her mother's shoulder.

Marni, Julien's reaction to the letter which he considered an assault on his honor wasn't really surprising - but what of the prideful Mathilde? When she learned the contents of the letter - stating that Julien was only after her money, how did her pride withstand this assault? Were you expecting her to overlook Julien's behavior?

Last week I spent some time rereading the "Queen Marguerite" chapter. Our Mathilde is in love with Julien, with the idea of Julien, because she loves her ancestor - Boniface de La Mole, the way Queen Marguerite did. And the reason our Mathilde loved Boniface was because this queen has captured Mathilde's imagination. Mathilde fancies herself the queen, "the wittiest queen of her century, who had adored and was adored by Boniface de La Mole." She is living this fantasy. If in fact, Julien is sent to the guillotine, she will claim his head, I'm sure! But right now, she has no doubt that Julien/Boniface adores her, no matter what he may have done in the past.

The question is - will the fantasy hold? I'm am really concerned what will happen to this pregnant young girl if she has to face the reality of her situation. Does she realize that Julien has had an affair with Madame de Rênal? That Julien had and continues to have feelings for the woman he has shot?

JoanP, I just noticed my chapter 40 is titled "Tranquility." I see in the header "Tranquility" is chapter thirty-seven. From looking at the other chapter headings and numbers in the heading, I think we are in the same place. I am about to read Tranquility.

My mistake in filling in the table, hats - glad you caught it. How does your translator spell "Tranquillity"? I've reproduced the way Robert Adams in the Norton Critical spelled it...

"Tranquillity is the quality of calm experienced in places with mainly natural features and activities, free from disturbance from man-made ones." This definition certainly fits Julien's mindset in his tower, doesn't it?

JoanP, my translator spells "Tranquillity" this way.

JoanP asks did we expect Mathilde to overlook Julien's behavior after she found out about Julien and Mme de Renal?

Mathilde seems to be a glutton for punishment in her relationship with Julien, so, no, I was not surprised at all. The more he trods upon her, the more she loves him. What a weird relationship!

We do not see Mathilde discussing her child and what she is going to do about it. It seems she still plans to carry on with Julien. She seems confident that one way or another he will be freed or escape from prison.

Julien does think about the child. Julien is not thinking he will be free but that he will be guillotined. He wants Mathilde to leave the child with Mme de Renal (!!??) and, in one year, Mathilde should marry the young duke de Croisenois. It seems to me the only way de Croisenois would now marry Mathilde would be if he never knew about her affair with Julien and did not know about the baby. But it seems that everyone is getting to know Mathilde in Verrieres despite the costume. She's throwing money around like it's going out of style. Word will spread like wildfire as gossip does.

It's interesting how Mathilde and Julien say they are married. They even tell others they were secretly married. Julien says de Croisenois will be her second husband. I would think de Croisenois would find this difficult to swallow.

Joan asked, "Did the two actually make love in the jail cell?" What?!?! Where is the passage in question? I managed to overlook it twice! LOL!

"2. Is Mathilde aware that her father and M. de Frilair are adversaries when she enlists his help for Julien? Is this the reason M. de Frilair consents to contact the bishop on Julien's behalf?"

I have no idea if Mathilde was aware that her father and M. de Frilair are adversaries.

I am continually surprise by the crooked clergy! M. de Frilair thinks to himself:

"Here I am suddenly thrown into intimate relations with a friend of the celebrated Marechale de Fervaques, who is the all-powerful niece of my lord, bishop of ___ who can make one a bishop of France. What I looked upon as an extremely distant possibility presents itself unexpectedly. This may lead me to the goal of all my hopes."

Not only will M. de Frilair be rich, but he may have influence to obtain the position of bishop.

LAURA, when we read between the lines in Chapter 38, there is some hint of intimacy between Mathilde and Julien in the prison cell :

"He abandoned himself in ecstasy to Mathilde's love; there w as madness in it, greatness of soul, akl the wildest, strangest things. She seriously proposed to him that they should die together. (!!)

"After the first moments of rapture, when her longing for the happiness of sereing Julien was satisfied, her mind as suddenly possessed with keen curiosity. ..."

Curiosity propels the Abbé de Frilair, the Vicar-General, to grant Mathilde an audience sooner rther than later. He can hardly believe his ears when she reveals (easily enough) who she really is : the daughter of his powerful adversary, the Marquis de la Mole. There he sees the chance of his own advancement to a higher post in the Church. He has heard of Madame de Fervaques and her influence in such matters and knows she is related to the Bishop of ...

He finds "sensual" pleasure in tormenting poor, jealous Mathilde with the rumors he has heard about Julien and Madame de Rênal, clearly a sign of cruelty. He is fully convinced that he can sway the jury. "You see, Mademoiselle", he says, " it is so easy for me to grant Absolution". "If M. de Frilair hd not thought Mathilde such a pretty creature, he would not have spoken to her so plainly until their fifth or sixth interview."

For what it is worth, the title of Chapter 40 in my translation is "Peace of Mind".

JOAN, I believe Jacobin Law was superseded in 1804 by the Napoleonic Code and no longer in force at the time of Julien's trial.

Traude: I thought that part about the abbe de Frilair having the 5th or 6th interview with Mathilde was quite awful. It made the abbe seem very lecherous and wicked.

When I read Frilair would be seeking advancement through the use of Mme de Fervaques, I thought uh, oh, the pot is going to boil. Mme de Fervaques has been thinking Julien loved her what with the 53 letters back and forth.

Mathilde is racing around full of energy trying to get people to help Julien's case, spending money like mad. She thinks if it comes to a trial, the jury will be in his favor. One can buy a jury, n'est past? However, I am anticipating that Mathilde will be in for a disappointment. Julien has dallied with too many women. I'm thinking Julien's love triangle will catch up to him.

Plus, weren't there the enemies who were aware that Julien was taking information to the unknown duke, the enemies that attempted to poison him? I think those enemies must still exist even though Julien delivered the message.

Then, of course, there is the Marquis de la Mole. Julien was playing with his daughter behind his back despite all he did for Julien. (Yes, yes, he was using Julien, but no matter.) Why on earth would he want Julien to be found innocent? I would think he would use his full powers against Julien.

Something just struck me. I have been reading about Robespierre. He was meticulous about his appearance and was known for his signature sky-blue coat. Mme de Renal had a sky-blue coat made for Julien when he rode in the parade when the king came to town. The Marquis de la Mole made Julien wear a blue coat when he had him pretend to be the son of his friend, the Duke of Chaulnes.

I wonder if there is significance to the sky-blue or blue color of Julien's coats? There must be. Is there any association with the French Revolution? But, after all, this is the Red and the Black.

Bonjour mes amis! Our good days here together are numbered. Soon we will be considering the red and the black of the title. That should be an interesting discussion.

Marni - I hadn't considered the blue coat Julien was wearing as anything other than the military navy blue the French army wore. The honor guard for the visiting King wore sky blue? "Sky blue" certainly isn't navy. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Robespierre wore the sky blue?

Le Rouge et le Noir is living up to its billing as a the first "psychological" novel, isn't it? Sometimes I get annoyed at Julien's inability to make up his mind. Does he want to live, or doesn't he? He seems to change his mind several times on each page. But does he? Isn't self-preservation a basic instinct? Is it any wonder that he wavers that instinct and death which he sees as the only way out of his predicament? Beneath this tug of war, I sense his resolve - he just needs to work out the details. And just as he sees the guillotine as the solution, Mathilde is working to salvage their future together. Is this how you see their positions now?

Marni - Mathilde's relationship with Julien is "Weird" - but don't forget she thinks she's Queen Marguerite - she'll overlook everything for this great love. The child she's carrying seems to be forgotten - ? How pregnant is she? Can one forget those first months of pregnancy?

I think it's interesting too the way Mathilde continues to refer to Julien as her husband. What is the word used in French? "Femme" can mean woman or wife, no? Can she be saying she is Julien's "woman"? I thought it was interesting that Julien cannot see Mathilde as a mother - since he knows Madame de Rênal to be a good mother, she would be a better mother to his "son." But what can he be thinking? He tried to murder her! He's going to the guillotine for trying to kill the woman he plans to have raise his child - by another woman! I think he's spending too much time in solitude to think straight!

Enter Mathilde, as if nothing as changed that cannot be overcome. Is Julien carried away with her fantasy? LauraD, I'm not sure they had relations in the jail cell - Traudee's quote is very like the one in my translation - "strong hints of intimacy." "He felt he was the lover of a queen," he yielded with delight to her love."
She is here to save him from himself! Does she have the power? She certainly has the determination.

Traude, thanks for these quotes from Chapter 38:

"He abandoned himself in ecstasy to Mathilde's love; there was madness in it, greatness of soul, akl the wildest, strangest things. She seriously proposed to him that they should die together. (!!)

"After the first moments of rapture, when her longing for the happiness of seeing Julien was satisfied, her mind as suddenly possessed with keen curiosity. ..."

My translation is slightly different, but different enough so that I had no inkling that the two may have made love. It is much more obvious in your translation. Here are the same two passages from my book:

"He abandoned himself with delight to Mathilde's love. It was madness, it was greatness of soul, it was the most remarkable thing possible. She seriously suggested that she should kill herself with him."

The word delight made me picture a hug. The word ectasy brings a different picture to mind. And "die with" versus "kill herself with" ---oh, come on! Not the same meaning at all!

"After these first transports, when she had had her fill of the happiness of seeing Julien, a keen curiosity suddenly invaded her soul."

"Transports" versus "moments of rapture"...a very different meaning to me!

It didn't take long for Mathilde to gather that nothing happened in Besançon without the powerful vicar M.de Frilair. Isn't he a great representative of the crooked, lecherous clergy Stendhal wishes to portray. Remember de Frilair was the one who wanted to put Julien down in the seminary - lowered his class rank to 198th. He was furious when the Bishop took a liking to Julien.

LauraD, I'm not sure if Julien knew of the land dispute between her father and M. de Frilair. But you can bet de Frilair knew who Mathilde was - and Julien too. Why on earth would he want to help her free Julien? You provide the answer - Mathilde is the friend of Madame de Fervaques. She is the one with the influence to make princes and bishops! Is Mathilde aware of de Frilair's motives in helping her? She does agree to contact her "friend" and ask her to contact the bishop on Julien's behalf - knowing that Madame de Fervaques and Julien have been...corresponding.

You're right, Marni - the clouds are gathering over Besançon. Is Mme. de Fervaques aware of Mathilde's feelings for Julien - of Julien's for Mathilde? And how will Mme. de Fervaques respond when she learns the reason Julien is on trial? And the biggest question of all - does Mathilde understand yet that Julien still has feelings for Mme. de Rênal - that he shared a grand passion with her? (Where is M. de Rênal on all this? Why would Julien shoot his wife? Does he know of the affair? How will he react to raising Julien and Mathilde's love child?)

Edit - LauraD, we're posting together. It's all in the translator's mind, isn't it? It will be interesting to hear Stendhal's French version. But, we do know that Julien is sending mixed signals to Mathilde. He is responding to her beauty, her presence, while making plans for her child's future, ordering her to marry de Croisenois. (Notice it is no longer "his son" but her child!) Of course Mathilde dismisses the idea of a death sentence - she will make things right and the future is theirs! Marni, I have no idea how M. de La Mole will react, but expect him to be in town for the trial, don't you?

"Julien felt irritated at not finding himself touched by all this heroism." (Ch. 39) (Mathilde's heroic efforts at saving him from jail and death)

I think this quote brings to mind the idea discussed earlier that the relationship between Julien and Mathilde is one not of the heart, but of the mind. They decided to be a couple and they are both pursuing that goal, even when their hearts are sending them messages that they may not love each other.

Julien seems to be planning for the future of his son in this chapter. I think Julien is correct when he says to Mathilde, "In fifteen years, Madame de Renal will adore my son and you will have forgotten him." I think Madame de Renal would rather that Julien live to raise his own child though.

P.S. Good morning, Joan!

JoanP, going back and reading all the posts. I noticed my misspelling of Tranquillity. Thank you for bringing my eyes to the correct spelling in the chapter heading.

Traude, thank you for giving us the name of your chapter, "Peace of Mind."

In these chapters I am most moved by Mme. de Renal's letters to the thirty-six jurors. I think her letter is very sane while being emotional at the same time. Laura D, I have continued to remember your list of contrasts. In this chapter I can really see the contrast between Mme. de Renal and Mathilde. Mathilde is very, very selfish. I am not sure whether she is insane. I do know she is extremely wild and her thoughts are off centered. Why does not someone become involved and ask the help of the church?

I feel the same as Marni. Mathilde is not thinking of her baby. Julien, I believe, sees the true Mathilde and knows she will not make a good mother for his child. Julien is thinking a lot about the coming child, his future son, he thinks. He goes so far as to tell Mathilde to marry Marquis de Croisenois. Julien tells why she can marry without a loss of reputation.

While Mathilde is anything but the norm, Mme. de Renal seems like a gracious woman with a caring heart. I know she made a mistake with Julien, still, she has so many good points in her character. She loves her children, she is forgiving although Julien wounded her with a gun, she is willing to put her reputation on the line to come to his aid.

JoanP, thank you for bringing up Queen Marguerite again and Mathilde's fascination with her. Marni, I thought your theory about the blue worn by Robespierre and the blue worn by Julien very interesting. Traude, thank you for the lines clearly telling what happened in the jail cell.

It is amazing, I think, that Mme. de Renal had the foresight to observe and pinpoint Julien's mental condition.

"For almost eighteen months we all knew him as pious, dutiful and conscientious; but two or three times a year he was seized by fits of melancholy which bordered on derangement."

I have been thinking like Mme. de Renal. "How could you condemn him to death while I am alive?" Then, she talks about how quickly her wound healed. "...after less than two months it has allowed me to travel by post horses from Verrieres to besancon."

I myself do not understand "Article 1342 of the Penal Code." My footnote does not give a clear explanation, not one I can understand. I suppose Julien should lose his life because by his wild thinking he could have very well taken Mme. de Renal's life. In the years after the French Revolution, these years in the 1800's, during a trial will Julien's sanity as described by Mme. de Renal "Everyone in Verrieres has witnessed his moments of derangement" become a part or issue of the trial? Is there a possibility that Julien will regain his freedom because of a lack of sanity?

I would like to make a remark about questions in the headings. I never ignore the questions. I do read each one. I simply do not make a good job of answering the questions precisely. I will try harder in the future. Thank you to those who do answer the questions so well. I just wanted JoanP to know my thoughts about the questions. I do not take the questions lightly.

Itemize briefly the distinctions between Julian and Paris Hilton.

Oh Hats! Please don't ever feel the need to address the questions in the heading - obviously they are my own. Yours are just as good, and as interesting! I ought to put YOURS in the heading! And then along comes our Zany to make the point that you all do a fine job with provocative questions! "Itemize briefly the distinctions between Julian and Paris Hilton." hahaha, let's! Let's look at the similarities! (Will she go back to jail to serve her sentence?)

They both admit they have committed the crime with which they have been charged. Julien isn't making it easy for his lawyer who is trying to defend him, as he insists it is simply a case of murder - premeditated. I agree with you, Hats - there could be a case of impaired judgment - but I'm not sure how the law regarded this line of defense at the time. Madame de Rênal's letter to the jurors sounds convincing as she begs them for his acquittal. Her testimony that she and her sons has witnessed "wild thinking" as you describe it - Madame de Rênal writes to the jury of his "periods of distraction, attacks of melancholy, depression, seizures."

She's ordered to stay in bed - M. de Rênal is afraid she will be called upon to testify. Don't you wonder what he thinks of the whole affair? Does he realize there has been an affair? Are there any clues here? The fact that they are still together counts for something, doesn't it?

I think the decision rests in the hands of the jury - but in whose hands are the jury? This is where Mathilde's efforts come into play. If Julien is acquitted, which lady will have influenced the jury more, do you think?

LauraD - as you say, Julien is not at all touched at Mathilde's attempts to save him. He finds her "changeable" and she exhausts him. Funny, I always looked at Julien as the "changeable one." Until now. Now he seems to have one focus - his death. He enjoys his solitude more than her visits - Laura - do you think the two ever loved on another?

In this chapter we see Julien describing his feelings for Madame de Rênal as "remorse,"but Stendhal writes, "in fact he was madly in love with her." I see that now Julien believes he is in love with Madame de Rênal (notice that he never refers to her by her first name - while Mathilde is "Mathilde.") Julien seems to have romanticized this love - just as Mathilde has romanticized her love for Julien - to the point of vowing to kill herself if he is convicted. Do you think she would?

What will the jury hear about Julien's motives for killing Madame de Rênal? Will they hear of a broken romance? Julien has vowed not to talk, she won't be testifying. Who will tell?

Mathilde has been successful it seems in getting Madame de Fervaques to contact the Bishop, who may elevate M. de Frilair to a bishopric if Julien is acquitted. M. de Frilair assures Mathilde that the chances are good - that he has a good number of jurors in his debt - including the new mayor - M. Valerod, who will do whatever de Frilair tells him. I meant to look up "jury of the assize" - does anyone know what this meant. "sitting jury?

Zany - Julien seems to be in solitary confinement - just like Paris - but he does have visitors, luxuries, those cigars - doesn't he get to go outside for fresh air for more than an hour a day?

The point that I found fascinating was the fact that there were 36 jurors. They could divide evenly on a decision. However there are broad hints that it is possible to bribe at least some of them. But most fascinating is that Julien doesn't seem to care. He can't fight anymore. This change of character seems unworthy of the author who kept the insightful remarks so on point till these chapters.Actually the three main characters seem to have turned insane in these chapters.As though the book has to end because of a deadline.

Zany the main difference between Paris and Julien is one has committed a misdameanor (Paris) and the other a felony (Julien).Then of course there is the issue of money-but polite folks don't mention that-or do they?

Zany, I think the difference between Julien and Paris is one very important item. Julien didn't receive gourmet cupcakes.

The denouement is close. Were the latest developments as unexpected as they seem to us ?

The church in Verrières is mentioned twice, first in Chapter 5. This is where Julien finds the torn note about some unfortunate young fellow's execution. A drop of holy water on the floor looks like blood in the light of a sunbeam shining through the crimson curtains.
Immediately thereafter he meets Madame de Rênal for the first time.

Eighteen months have passed since the day. Julien enters the church a second time; he stabs Madame and believes her dead.
He has since learned that she is still alive.

Now he knows that he still loves her, has always loved her, and not Mathilde. What he feels for Madame is in fact real love (= "l'amour vrai"). The love for Mathilde was constructed in his and Mathilde's heads, and she was a very willing participant in creating this "l'amour de tête".

This at least is the suggestion given in one of the analytical reflections in my French text.

Also, Julien is no longer a (purposely converted) hypocrite but trying to be an honorable man; a hero in the making ?

ZANY, an interesting suggestion, yours is, to compare Paris Hilton and Julien Sorel. For my part I fear that the two are not only centuries but worlds apart. Just my humble opinion.

HATS, there were so many questions in this story, and so many remain even now. For example those long parenthetical passages Stendhal inserted in two chapters, one an imagined conversation with his publisher. It would take some time to check how relevant these passages are to the plot.

You have nothing to reproach yourself for; you have given valuable insights throughout. You are a credit in every discussion.

- Hats, maybe Julien didn't get any of those gourmet goodies, but did Paris get even one of those excellent cigars Mathilde had delivered to him from Holland?

Judy - you'd think that the Hilton money would at least let some visitors in to see Paris! Mathilde seems to walk in and out of Julien's cell at will. It doesn't seem that the jailer sees Julien as a murderer. Somehow Paris has become a threat and must be cuffed to and from the jail house!

I'm thinking of the scene in the de La Mole library when he pulled down the sword as if to kill Mathilde. And now he stands ready for conviction for attempted murder. He must feel that he does not deserve to live. I'd watch him closely if I were his jailer.

Traudee, I'm still thinking about this - "Julien is no longer a (purposely converted) hypocrite but trying to be an honorable man; a hero in the making." I think he is trying to do the right and honorable thing - but what do you mean that he is no longer "a purposely converted hypocrite"?

I wonder how the jury will regard him - I'm guessing there are no women on the jury. That's a shame. He'd certainly be acquitted.

"Actually the three main characters seem to have turned insane in these chapters." Judy, I'm still smiling over this - and not really sure why!

Do you see Madame de Rênal as suddenly "insane"? Mathilde seems to be just Mathilde as she has always been. Will either lady live if Julien is convicted?

Mathilde has been a busy girl, contacting everyone she can think of to speak on Julien's behalf. Madame de Rênal has quietly been writing to the jurors, telling she is quite recovered and therefore they should not consider the death penalty. She excuses Julien's action as some sort of nervous condition.

I found some interesting facts about acquittals in cases of "crimes of Passion" at the time - while looking up the meeting of "assize trials."

Assize Trials:

The word assize refers to the sittings or sessions (Old French assises) of the judges, known as "justices of assize", who were judges of the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice who travelled across the seven circuits of England and Wales on commissions of "oyer and terminer", setting up court and summoning juries at the various Assize Towns.

In France and other countries working along the same system, Assize Courts (Cour d'Assises) use juries to judge the most serious crimes, such as murder or rape. It is chaired by a senior judge called the president of the court.

In France, the assize court has 9 jurors plus 3 professional judges on first instance, and 12 jurors plus 3 professional judges on appeal. List of possible jurors are drawn at random from the electoral rolls, but the prosecution and the defense can refuse some jurors (without having to bring any justification). For certain crimes (large-scale drug trafficking, terrorism, or other severe attempts on the security of the state), the court consists of 5 professional judges.Assize courts in France

Acquittals in crimes of passion:

"In fin-de-siècle France, jurists became alarmed by the high rate of acquittals in cases of "crimes of passion" tried by jury in the assize courts. The acquittal of so many defendants who readily admitted their crimes seemed to prove that the citizen jurors of the Third Republic were not competent to render justice. Through an investigation of French judicial procedures, together with evidence from 251 cases of intimate violence tried in the assize court of the Seine, this article contends that the high rate of acquittal was due to the transfer of a popular system of retributive justice into the verdict of the court. Surprisingly, judicial procedures worked to privilege the stories, knowledge, and standards of witnesses and defendants—not a strict application of the law. 19th century acquittals in cases of crimes of passion

Judy - 36 jurors IS quite a large number - how many do you count in M. de Frilair's pocket? I don't see half that...

JOAN, what I meant was that Julien saw how successful the social hypocrites and pretenders were, so he deliberately became one himself. He "converted" - not to a religious faith, but a mode of behavior.

Julien had some money with him and slipped some to one jailer before Mathilde arrived. Once she was there, she spent her gold coins freely and with open hands. The information about the no doubt costly cigars imported from Holland is interesting. We hadn't been told Julien smoked !

Traude, I feel humbled by your kind words. Thank You.

Zany, that is hilarious --- compare Paris and Julien! LOL!

Joan, I don’t think Julien and Mathilde were ever in love. I think they are physically attracted to each other and in love with the idea of being in love with each other. Moreover, I don’t think Mathilde would kill herself if Julien was convicted.

Now, onto the trial...

Bonjour, mes amis!
This is the day we have been waiting for - ever since Julien's first visit to the church in Verrières before his first day at the home of M. de Rênal. As Traudee says, Stendhal doesn't surprise. We have been prepared all along for this day, haven't we? Thanks for the "converted" hypocrite explanation - I think I saw it come to him naturally, Traudee.

Lots of excitement in Besançon this morning, n'est-ce pas?

ps. LauraD - it seems that both Madame de Rênal and Mathilde have expressed a will to die if Julien dies. Who would take her life for love, do you think?

Seems as much a dream sequence as the one in Alice in Wonderland though far more pleasent. All those honeys looking on admiringly at Julian. I've had that dream once or twice myself. Alas, it's not been one often shared by my partners.

On the one hand, I agree with you that Stendhal now writes "As though the book has to end because of a deadline." But I disagree that Julian no longer has a purpose. Au contraire, like many young people he feels powerless and unimportant (as regards the world at large, this feeling doesn't alter much as one grows older, we merely learn to tend our own garden -- for as the wars go on, my artichokes were wonderfully tender this year and I have a bumper crop of tomatoes on the way) but hopes to make a grand gesture through his death on the guillotine. "I guess it's kind of funny, I guess it's kind of sad, that the dreams I've had of dying are the best I've ever had."

Julien's words surprised me. "Mme de Renal had been like a mother to me." Does he mean what he is saying or are these words used as a way to save Mme. de Renal's reputation? We know he loved her as a man would love a woman in a love affair. I am guessing he is using these words to protect Mme. de Renal's reputation. After all, Julien is sure he can trust her to help raise or keep an eye on his future child.

A verdict whether someone should live or die is always sad, I think. To make matters worse Julien looks like a boy just stepping into manhood. He seems no more than twenty.

When Julien walks in the courtroom, he notices the architecture first. That surprised me too. "On entering the courtroom he was struck by the elegance of the architecture. It was in pure gothic style, with a host of pretty little columns carved into the stone with the utmost skill. He imagined himself in England." When death draws near, are we more aware of the tiniest detail? I can't remember. Didn't Julien already have a fondness of architecture?

HATS, no need to thank me. I thank you.

There was always something maternal that attracted Julien to Madame de Rênal. Much is made from the first of the 10-year age difference, that she has three sons who sleep in her toom.

Julien, like Stendhal himself, lost his mother early. He probably took after her (was possibly a bit effeminate), while the brothers were spitting images of the brute of a father.

It is telling, isn't it, that Julien would entrust Madame de Rênal without hesitation with supervising the care of his son (not directly, of course, but hiring a wet nurse).
At this stage, however, this is but the desperate planning of a man awaiting trial who knows hat he may be condemned to death.

Julien is probably right in his prophetic remark that in ten-years' time Mathilde will have forgotten her son, perhaps be ashamed of the affair.

We are not surprised in the least about Monsieur de Rênal's reaction. He was concerned always exclusively with his own person, his reputation, his advancement. A "small" man, like Monsier Tanbeau, the academicien's son.

Zany- What I meant when I said that Julian has no purpose is because his ambition has been removed, his freedom of movement has been removed,and he is now a receiver of other peoples actions rather than the mover and shaker of the novel.Things are happening around him but he is a recipient, or if you will, a victim of others good or bad motives .His Zing has been removed.The balloon exists after being deflated but it has lost it's meaning and excitement.

I think Stendhal realized this was happening and was hurrying the action up because without the fascination of Juliens amazing growth and change the story loses its motive. As I said before, the love these two women are feeling and expressing only makes me certain that they were unbalanced from the get-go. But who knows, the French are built differently from us and perhaps in the 1800s this was normal human behavior.

Judy

JUDY, I concur with your analysis of Julien.

It is also clear that Mathilde was unstable from the beginning and grew progressively worse in her fixation.
For me, Mathilde is one of the most unpleasant characters in any book I ever read. She was arrogant, spoiled, pushy and often tactless (for example in the manner she showered her gold on the "best lawyers" in Verrières, who were affronted but took the money any way).

Madame de Rênal, a meek woman compared to the imperious Mathilde, was misguided and a helpless victim of her intense passion for Julien.

We remember her tremendous guilt over what she had done - during the illness of one of her sons. Her guilt grew and festered after Julien left, and we can well imagine that she was never at peace. Then she had the misfortune to fall into the hands of a zealous father confessor.

Even someone of sound mind would have had difficulty grappling with the physical effects alone of the stabbing. I believe Stendhal portayed her as a fundamentally good person. She didn't "have a mean bone in her body", as they say.

Julian's only purpose has been instant gratification. He continues to visualize himself in a hero's role, like Danton, a martyr. Unlike Danton, he is a rebel without a cause, and would indeed be forgotten within fifteen days, were it not for this excellent (though fictional) biography. P.S. I was surprised to read the unwarranted attack on Mathilde posted on this board.

Bonjours, mes amis! C'est aujourd'hui dimanche - a rather gray, not sunny day here in Arlington...

Zany has a thing for Mathilde - let's be careful what we say about her! She has given her all to this relationship! And don't forget, she's pregnant! Who can fault her efforts to clear Julien? I spotted her mother up in the balcony - but where is the Marquis de La Mole? Isn't he crucial to his daughter's (comfortable) future? She has pleaded his cause with the powerful vicar - but doesn't the Marquis wield some weight here too? Has M. de la Mole washed his hands of Julien since he received the letter from Madame de Rênal? Maybe that's why he isn't at the trial, but then why is the Marquise de La Mole in the Besançon courtroom?

How is your math? I've given up counting the jurors who will probably support Julien's acquittal. Were you as confused as I was to see Mathilde emerge in tears from her conversation with M. de Frilair before the trial began? She was "comforted" by what he said, wasn't she? Do you suppose hers were tears of joy?

While reading these last chapters, I can't help but close my eyes and go back in time to imagine how Stendhal's readers reacted to "Le Rouge et Le Noir." This is sharp satire spoofing a considerable number of his readership, n'est-ce pas? Were they smiling at the obvious satire? Or were they wrapped up in the tragic, romantic elements of this story? How did they (the readers) react to Julien's statement defending the peasantry, including himself -

Yesterday Zany likened the courtroom drama to a dream sequence from Alice in Wonderland. It certainly was surreal, exaggerated and melodramatic, wasn't it? Surely the readers would have reacted - as Zany did. Is it any wonder Stendhal's satire was not well-received in France until years later?

1. Mathilde is highly emotional by nature, as we have seen again and again. Understandably, she is in turmoil; worn out with worry; almost at the point of an emotional breakdown. The uncertainties weighed on her day and night.

2. Regarding the personage in the gallery, pointed out to Julien by the gendarme.

The original text reads à côté madame la marquise de M..., celle-là vous aime bien
and, in my translation, as "just beside her Ladyship the Marquise de M---, that lady's a great friend of yours".
(emphasis mine)

IS THIS indeed Madame de la Mole ? I wonder.
Why isn't her full name given ? Would Mathilde's mother really have come from Paris under circumstances so humiliating for her daughter, actually for the family ? (Mathilde herself is there, but hidden, as we find out.)

3. Julien had not planned to take the stand. But the hour was late. Something within himself impelled him to pour out everything tht was in his hear. What made him do it ?
It may well have been the sight of his former "rival" for Madame de Rênl's affection, M. Valenod, the former supervisor of the prison who wanted to hire Julien as tutor for his children. Long a nouveau riche and a powerful man, he has since been made a baron and is the mayor of Verrières.

M. de Frilaire describes him to perfection in chapter 41:

"He is a man with a bold tongue in his head, impudent, coarse, a born leader of fools. The year 1814 rescued him from beggary, and I am about to make him a Prefect. He is quite capable of thrashing the other jurors if they refuse to vote as he wishes."

But even the astute M. de Frilaire did not have the full measure of treacherous Valenod.

Julien says what he feels. He is not considering what he is doing or how his words will be taken - by the jury or anyone else.

4. Yes, is my short answer is yes. Especially since my discovery that one important sentence in the original text did NOT make it into my translation. That sentence is

"Madame de Rênal avait été pour moi comme une mère." = Madame de Rênal was like a mother to me."

That sentence should be between /blockquote> "I have been guilty of an attempt on the life of a woman most worthy of all respect, of all homage."
and
"My crime is atrocious, and it was premeditated."

It would be interesting to know whether the sentence quoted above is in your respective translations . To reiterate : it is not in mine. Thank you

JOAN, we posted almost at the same time !

- Bonjour, Traudee - yes, we did. I'll look up the "filial" passages in my translation in a minute -
Good point - the Marquise de M. just might be another marquise. Why would Julien be told she was a good friend of his if it was the wife of the Marquise de La Mole. That throws a different light on her - except - what was this Marquise de M. whispering to the presiding judge before the trial begain? Do the rest of you think this is Madame de La Mole in the gallery?

About the difference in translations - I cannot imagine an ommission of Julien's comments praising Mme. de La Mole's maternal qualities! We need to check Stendhal's original French on this. The Norton Critical has several references -

"I have attempted to cut short the life of a woman most worthy of respect, most worthy of devotion. Mme. de Rênal had been like a mother to me."
And again -
"Before he finished, Julien returned to the matter of premeditation, to his regret, his respect, and to the unbounded filial adoration which in happier days hea had felt for Mme. de Rênal.

My feelings when I read that - Julien was trying to remove any suspicion that there was a romantic link between the two of them - and that his was a crime of passion. Perhaps as Hats suspects, he is trying to save Madame de Rênal's reputation. I see him trying to leave the jury with the impression that this was cold, meditated murder. He seems to be offering no good explanation as to why he shot her, leaving the jury no choice but conviction.
(Traudee, if Julien had stabbed the lady, I would see this differently, but he shot her from behind, without looking into her face - he shot her twice, as if he was sleepwalking. Then he came to.)

JOAN, I have the original French right before me and I quoted from it.

Let's check with ÉLOÏSE and anyone else who has the French text. I'm sorry, of course Julien SHOT her, I don't know how I came to "stabbed". The French word is pistolet. The first bullet only grazed her, the second one hit her in the back.

Oh, you were quoting from the French translation then, which indicates no mention of "filial attachment." Wow! I cannot believe that translatiors would insert these words - which would sway the jury from their belief that this is a crime of passion!

Judy - I remember reading that Stendhal always wrote quickly, deadline or no, rarely editing what he had written. Things seem to speed up since the shooting because the trial looms. There is not time for further development Julien has no room to develop in his cell. He wants to be left alone to think about his death and "the great perhaps." - "the great perhaps" Did that catch your eye?

Zany - a great quote - "I guess it's kind of sad, that the dreams I've had of dying are the best I've ever had." We couldn't hope for a better experience! (Will you have an edible tomato by the 4th of juillet?)

When one looks death in the eye, there is no room for ambition. Julien is no longer Julien without the burning ambition we have come to expect from him. I must admit, I keep looking for ambition to return, but there are only four chapters left!

Judy, I'm thinking the two ladies were not normal for this period - and maybe this is a sadder story than we see here. Are the non-fictional ladies of the aristocracy bored, oppressed and considered property? Would Stendhal's female readers look at the rebellious Mathilde and Madame de Rênal who dared to follow her heart with admiration and envy - or with disdain?

Just found Oscar Wilde's famous saying <BR. "Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue".

Hats, I noticed Julien regarding the elegant architecture of the courtroom too! "Pure gothic in style...he imagined himself in England." I agree, I don't think a normal person facing a death sentence would be noticing the details of the architecture. But Stendhal must have had a reason for including this observation.

Julien didn't travel to England much. He did spend a few months in London when M. de La Mole sent him during the time he had the gout. I reread those pages - nothing about touring the city to admire the architecture.

Is Stendhal writing about more than Gothic architecture? With some help from Google, I see that there was a "gothic movement" in England which made its way to France.

"In brief, since the late seventeenth century, fiction writers had labored to produce a new style of writing that was firmly grounded in the ordinary real world, in contrast to earlier medieval romance and fantasy literature. By the mid eighteenth century, fiction, particularly the early novel, was entirely "realistic," set in fictional but recognizable countryside and homes and inhabited by fictional but real people whose lives were subject to social and natural law. The only mysteries in the characters' lives and world were the natural unknowns occasioned by real life.

Walpole grew up on a steady diet of these novels and wanted to write something different. The result was The Castle of Otranto. Set in the distant past in Italy, the novel blends the realism of the early English novel with the mysticism and supernaturalism of medieval romance.
Since its invention in 1765 gothic fiction flourished in England and America until around 1840." The Gothic Novel

And one more -

"Gothic fiction is a genre of literature that combines elements of both horror and romance. The effect of gothic fiction depends on a pleasing sort of terror, an extension of essentially Romantic literary pleasures that were relatively new at the time of Walpole's novel.

Prominent features of gothic fiction include terror (both psychological and physical), mystery, the supernatural, ghosts, haunted houses and Gothic architecture, castles, darkness, death, decay, doubles, madness, secrets and hereditary curses.

The stock characters of gothic fiction include tyrants, villains, bandits, maniacs, Byronic heroes, persecuted maidens, femmes fatales, madwomen, magicians, vampires, werewolves, monsters, demons, revenants, ghosts, perambulating skeletons, the Wandering Jew and the Devil himself.

Important ideas concerning and regarding the Gothic include: Anti-Catholicism, especially criticism of Roman Catholic excesses such as the Inquisition." Gothic Fiction

This is a just a long way of saying that one of the reasons Julien commented on "Gothic architecture" may have been Stendhal commenting on the popular gothic fiction of the day - Stendhal included several elements of the Gothic in his fiction, I think. We, the realists, commented on the unlikely note Julien found in the Verrières church predicting his death - mentioning the name of the convicted fellow whose name was an anagram of his own. Unreal. Stendhal was straddling both the gothic and the realistic approach to literature. Ten years later, realism was the accepted art form - and "Le Rouge et Le Noir" received better acceptance!

I might be totally off the mark in my interpretation. What did YOU think when you read of Julien's interest in the Gothic architecture?!

Joan, You asked -how would Stendhal's female readers have reacted at the time? I find this an interesting question. Those females who read novels at the time were much fewer than female readers of today. (Statistically, the majority of novel readers are female today).Possibly the translation into English and the growing number of female readers was the reason that it took 50 years to become popular.

The woman of 1830 was still pretty housebound and limited in her lifes choices. (I just read a novel in which the idea of a woman performing surgery in the Crimean War ,working with Florence Nightingale, was considered sinful).By 1880 the situation had changed somewhat and the growth of female education and work had broadened considerably. It seems that women of 1830 might have been in disbelief that a person would throw their life away for love. Or perhaps they too were in love with Julien like the women who attended the trial. This is a very thin layer of very wealthy folk looking for entertainment . There were no movies or TV so it was a fairly new thing to encounter a Mathilde or a Madame de Renal. Perhaps the Opera was the source for the passion and melodrama that we encounter here. However in 1830 the Opera repotaire was still quite limited and heroines were pretty "soppy".

In other words I don't have a real answer for you, Joan. But it sure is an intriguing question !

Judy

JoanP, I will have to comment in pieces. Thank you for all the research. I am looking at the many links of Gothic Architecture in England and France. The buildings are magnificent. How many years, I wonder, did it take to build one of these buildings, cathedrals?

I will have to read The Pillar of Iron by Ken Follett. I know. It's not one of the Great Books.

When I read that Julien first looked at the Gothic Architecture as he walked in the courtroom, I thought what the Gothic Architecture portrayed was similar to his mood, a mood of heaviness and darkness.

Traude, my book includes the sentence that yours is missing.

“I have brought myself to make an attempt on the life of the woman who is most worthy of all reverence and all respect. Madame de Renal was a mother to me. My crime was atrocious, and it was premeditated.” (B&N edition)

I do think Julien was trying to sway the jury with this explanation.

I thought it was Madame de la Mole in the balcony, but I am having second thoughts since my book says “Madame the Marquise de M----.” Where is the la before Mole? I wouldn’t expect the article to be eliminated. However, I don’t know who else it could be.

Judy, I don’t think either Madame de Renal or Mathilde were like other women of their day. I think they are overly emotional representatives of women of their day.

I didn’t think a thing about the mention of the Gothic architecture. Good thing you all are here to bring up these things!

Now, to finish the book. I must be the only one who has yet to finish it!

The great architecture of the court room serves to support Julian's delusion that at last he is part of something great and wonderful, Moreover, his is a major part, for, as the accused, he is the star. Women will place flowers on his grave (as well as Jim Morrison's). Suicide is the ultimate narcissistic act.

JoanP, truly, my first thoughts about Julien looking at the architecture around him, well, I thought it was a bit of arrogance on his part. As if the proceedings were not important to him. My above thoughts only came after reading and learning from your links about Gothic Architecture.

Laura D, I have not finished the book. I am going to finish it now. I can not believe we are at the end of the book. Eloise, it is a wonderful classic.

JoanP, the more I think of your question. I believe there are any number of reasons why Julien could have been looking at that Gothic Architecture. I am thinking also that Julien might have wanted to appear like the proceedings were beneath him or like he was so brave he could care less whatever these people decided about his life.

I also wonder whether Julien could have been remembering his past and likening his life to a Gothic melodrama. His past life and his present are like Gothic Literature coming to pass in reality.

Since Julien loved to read, he would have known the elements of a Gothic novel. He might have read The Castle of Ostranto. His life at this point must have seemed like one of the novels he had read.

"Gothic fiction is a genre of literature that combines elements of both horror and romance. The effect of gothic fiction depends on a pleasing sort of terror, an extension of essentially Romantic literary pleasures that were relatively new at the time of Walpole's novel. (quote posted by JoanP)

Other than calling Stendahl's The Red and The Black a French classic, is it possible to correctly call it a French Gothic Classic?

I highlighted almost the whole piece trying to find some remarks to repost in my post. This is so exciting!

"Important ideas concerning and regarding the Gothic include: Anti-Catholicism, especially criticism of Roman Catholic excesses such as the Inquisition." (A quote posted by JoanP) Then, you give a link to the Gothic novel.

By the way, I would love to read The Castle of Ostranto. Since it is the first Gothic novel, is it on one of the Great Book Lists?

I have a copy of the Castle of Ostranto and have read it. Liked the story but very long descriptive passages.

You answered my question. You read my mind. I meant to ask if anyone had read The Castle of Ostranto.

Hats, I only wish you had read this book in the original to thoroughly appreciate the beauty of the narration and the different translations can never come close enough for me to enjoy it as much as I enjoy the original in French. Stendhal is over dramatic in the plot and he was probably the one who influenced Flaubert writing Madame Bovary and many other authors of the time to write a story that stemmed from a tragic court case.

The posts are so interesting and I don't have much time these days except to read them every day. Sorry about that.

I am wondering why Stendhal often calls Mlle de la Mole, Mathilde and never uses the first name of Mme de Rênal? Is it because he loved a woman named Mathilde for a long time and enjoyed writing it, or did he have another motive? The French are very formal and I once heard a woman call her husband by his family name, Monsieur ..... but that tends to change fast now. In the book only intimacy can allow the familiar "tu", le vous est de rigueur.

Hi Eloise,

I would love to have been able to read The Red and The Black in its original French. Instead, I enjoyed being in a discussion with you.

Bonjour, mes amis!
Hats, I'm as surprised as you are to be coming to the end of our time here together! We still have a number of unanswered questions to address together, don't we? Perhaps Stendhal has answered some of them in his concluding chapters... Let's take them slowly, one chapter a day - before we begin to evaluate the book as a whole.

I appreciate your close examination of Julien's reference to the Gothic architecture of the courtroom. Perhaps he had a number of reasons for this - as you suggest. The beautiful cathedrals in particular.

Zany writes that Stendhal included the reference to The great architecture of the court room serves to support Julian's delusion that at last he is part of something great and wonderful."

Did you notice in Chapter 44 yet another reference to Gothic architecture? He is wishing there was such a thing as a true religion..."

"Fool that I am! I see a Gothic cathedral, ancient stained glass; my heart in its weakness forms from those windows a picture of the priest... My soul would understand him, my soul has need of him...I find nothing ..."

It was interesting to me that Julien found the Gothic elements of the Church - in the courtroom. Does the powerful influence of the Church sway the Valenod jury in the end?

Kidsal, how long have you had your copy of Castle of Ostranto ? I wonder if it is out of print. Often I find those "long passages" full of the missing information - and always plow through it without scanning. Maybe that's what takes me so long to read a book these days.

Judy - on the subject of Stendhal's female readers, your post got me thinking about Stendhal's readership in general. It seems to me that in 1830, no one, male or female would have appreciated Stendhal's novel. It was a satire on the class who would be reading the book, wasn't it? Would you appreciate such an attack? (I guess I might, if it were well done.) But this is a time of revolution. Stendhal's work attacks the morals and the position of the ruling class.

As you, say, by 1880, the situation has changed - for everyone. By 1880, Stendal's novel has reached its popularity. But Eloise, please forgive me, if I can't say I was moved by Julien's love story. I will admit that of the two ladies, it was Mathilde who got my sympathy. Sorry, Traudee - I know you have no use for her, but as you say, the two seduced one another, equally responsible for whatever comes next. Julien is now annoyed by the very presence of his "wife" - and she is depending on him to see her through. Julien is not a free man (in more ways than one!) He just cannot leave Mathilde to cope with the situation. She still loves him in her own way! (No, I didn't read it in French, but can't believe I would have viewed it differently.) This is NOT to say I did not appreciate Stendhal's writing, his power of expression, his ability to get into the minds and motivations of his characters. This is not to say I didn't appreciate what he did accomplish with this novel.

Judy, if Stendhal did not intend for his love story to capture the imagination of his female readers, then who was his target audience in 1830? He wrote this story in a matter of months, rushing to get it published in the months following the revolution of 1830.

In the very beginning of this discussion, we learned that Stendhal got the idea of the framework for his novel from a French newspaper article relating the story of a young man who attempted the murder of a married woman. If you have finished the book and are interested in reading an account of this article, see if you can read this - if not let me know and I'll try to find another form of the story of Antoine Berthet

LauraD, you thnk that Julien was trying to sway the jury against him by convincing them that he did not wish to kill Madame de Rênal out of passion - but out of revenge for costing him his position. Would the jury understand - and acquit a murder of passion? Do you think that Valenod came into the courtroom prepared to convict, no matter what Julien had offered in his own defence?

Did Julien get what he wanted? The death sentence? Why does he appear to be going mad in his death cell?

Does the Rocky Horror Show qualify as a Gothic?

Just as Julian's whining form of narcissism was beginning to grate on our nerves, this Chapter comes along to offer us hope and keep us interested in what is to come. If it t'were a play, I'd be prepared to holler, "author, author." (and Beyle has time for yet another jab at religious hypocrisy).

I read a gothic novel in college called The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole. Is that the book?

Oh, I just finished our book. Julien may have dug his own grave when he gave his speech during his trial and talked about the bourgeois. His "advocate" was writhing during Julien's speech. I think that Valenod, who did want to convict him (probably still hating Julien from jealousy over Mme de Renal), was able to use Julien's own words against him with other members of the jury.

I think Julien did want the death sentence and tried to convince the jury he attempted pre-meditated murder. It seems he thought about the possibility of freedom when it included life with Mme de Renal. He did do some back and forth on this. He was willing to extend his prison time in order to be able to spend time with her. He wanted to be sure to die a manly courageous death. Their affair, in its own way, truly was a love story. Poor Julien did seem to go somewhat mad at times in the damp dark dungeon. But he was getting sick and weak from the atmosphere in the cell.

I felt sorry for both Mme de Renal and Mathilde. Both were so frantically trying to save Julien but were unable. I think Mme de Renal would be unable to live life without Julien. Mathilde, on the other hand, was the embodiment of Marguerite de Valois. She even enacted the story of Marguerite and Boniface de la Mole when Julien was guillotined. Mathilde was a drama queen to the end of the book. I didn't feel that Julien was trying to pay Mathilde back by spending so much time at the end with Mme de Renal, but that he truly loved her. He wanted to spend his short remaining days with the person who made him happy. However, he did want a good relationship between his true love and the mother of his son.

Julien was very philosophic at the end. Some of his thoughts about the nature of man made me think of how the Jacobins had admired the ideas of Rousseau and idealized nature during the French Revolution.

Re 1. Indeed, in addition to the red and the black, there is blue. Blue was the color of the uniform he wore as honor guard.

Re 2. I never read the book "Dead Man Walking" by Sister Helen Prejan, nor did I see the movie with Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn. But I can imagine what a person who is condemned to death, sits on death row and has exhausted all appeals must be feeling.

Julien is not int he same situation. He is playing devil's advocate with himself, talking out loud, playing Mephistopheles. Is it possible to function normally after hours and hours in the courtroom, after his emotional outburst?

Next to sex, self-preservation is the stronges human impulse. Anyone in Julien's situation, waiting to be put on the scaffold within three days, is bound to have conflicting feelings, hope versus hopelessness, despair, definitely rage against a god Julien doubts is there.

The God of Fénelon would have been merciful, to judge from what is known about the archbishop's life. His full name was Françcois-Marie de Salignac de la Mothe-Fénelon.
But Julien does not believe in God, not even a benevolent one.

He thinks of the prospects he would have had : Colonel of the Hussars; secretary of a Legation; Amassador. For the son-in-law of the Marquis de la Mole, even blunders in business affairs (for which he had such a good head) would have ranked as merits instead.

He does nt stop after Mathilde enters but continues with what he would have said about her (in the third person !) had she not been there.

Mathilde is enraged that Julien refuses to have an appeal filed. An argument ensues and Julien remarkably says "Heaven owed it to the glory of your race to have let you be born a man." (True enough and perspicacious to boot !!)perspicacity !!

(I think gender would have been better than "race", but "race" IS in the original.)

A compromise is reached with the lawyer. He happens to be a veteran of Napoleon's Italian Campaign in 1796. The former captain promises to remain every day to remind Julien of the possibility of appeal.

Meanwhile, Julien dreams of happy days gone by and of Madame's return.

PS MARNI, I just saw your post as I was checking mine for typos. We were both clearly "on the same page(s)". Thank you for your excellent analysis.

I was surprised to read Julien’s thoughts on the God of the Christians!

“If there is another life…Upon my word, it will be all up with me if I find the God of the Christians there: He is a tyrant, and as such, He is full of ideas of vengeance: His Bible speaks of nothing but atrocious punishment. I never liked Him --- I could never get myself to believe that anyone really liked Him.” (first page of Ch. 42)

Have I forgotten something from earlier in the book? While we, as a group, often doubted Julieen’s commitment to the priesthood, I don’t recall us thinking that he would reject God himself.

This is my favorite quote from Chapter 43 (Actually it is probably one of my favorites from the book.):

Julien answered Madame de Renal about Mathilde, “She is my wife, but she is not my mistress.”

I took this to mean that he had a commitment to Mathilde, like one has a commitment to a wife, probably due to the child she carried, but did not have love and passion for her, or a strong desire for her, like one would have with a mistress.

LauraD: I was at first surprised to read Julien's thoughts about the Christian God. However, Julien was not a religious man, even though he had begun to train for the priesthood. But he was doing that just to make a career for himself, a career that had the possibility of leading to money and power which is what Julien had been after, ambitious man that he was. His efforts to show his piety were mainly hypocritical and meant to get himself ahead.

I think Julien made it clear earlier on that the beauty of nature had more meaning to him than religion and God. He seemed to become refreshed and reborn when he went up the mountain to view the world. That is where he wanted to be buried. He told his friend Fouche to bring his body there to the grotto on the mountain top peak where he had been so happy.

When I think of the period that Julien was raised in France - first part of the 19th century - it is not a surprise that he might not believe in God or a formal religion. The ideas of the French Revolution had thrown the French Catholic church into a turmoil. The effects of this were still being felt. Here's an interesting article from Wikipedia about the De-Christianisation of France:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianisation_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution

I was thinking, too, about the Protestant God as envisioned by some of the Puritans and Lutherans. God was pictured as vengeful and all-powerful in the Bible. Think, for instance, of Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" where Edwards depicts man as dangling like a spider from a string over hellfire. Perhaps it is that vision of a Christian God that Julien is seeing and despising.

Bonjour, mes chers amis!
We and Julien have such little time left with Stendhal's novel!

Marni, Julien really did want the death penalty; that's why he testified as he did. As you say, Valenod was just looking for an excuse to convict - I agree, jealousy must have been the reason. Actually Valenod no longer has a reason to go along with Vicar de Frilair any longer. He already has the papers giving him the prefecture in Verrières. He didn't need the help of the Vicar - or the Church. Where did he get the promotion to prefect? Did M. or Marquise de La Mole get it for him - or Madame de Fervaques???

When Julien stood before the jury and portrayed himself "a peasant in open revolt against his station," Julien knew exactly what he was doing - he saw that "he was not being judged by his peers - but was in open revolt against the outraged bourgeoisie." He portrayed himself as a peasant in revolt who attempted to murder a woman who was worthy of his respect. Of course he deserved the death sentence - as he told the jury. As Marni says - Valenod has all he needs to convince the jury.

- Marni - I can't imagine what kind of a life Madame de Rênal would have without Julien either. This religious woman renounces her religion when she tries to talk Julien into a double suicide. Do you think the reason she responded "coldly" to the promise to raise his son - she doesn't want to live without Julien either? (We'll never know what happened to that baby. Did Mathilde name him "Julien" and raise him herself? Was it a boy?)

We seem divided as to whether Julien really loves (or ever loved) Mathilde. No, I don't think that he was trying to make Mathilde jealous by spending twice as much time with Madame de Rênal - but he doesn't look forward to seeing her. In fact her presence annoys him.

"Mathilde on this day was unaffectedly tender, like any poor shop girl in a garret: but she was unable to extract from him any simpler speech. Without knowing what he was doing, he was paying her back for the torments she had often inflicted on him."

Marni - Just now see your post - thank you for expanding on Julien's belief in the afterlife. Belief in the literal vengeful God has been replaced by the Church by a forgiving, loving Father. I'm not sure when this happened. Julien and Stendhal would have loved Him! Will read the link this afternoon with interest.

- Zany, Stendhal/Beyle expends energy in portraying his own disdain for religious hypocrisy - but LauraD, I'm not so sure I see Julien rejecting God himself. I guess it depends on the definition of "God" - I count three here - the God of the Christians, the God of Fénelon and the God of Voltaire.

Julien had been looking forward to his noble performance at the guillotine - until the slimy priest gained entrance to his cell, offering to hear his confession (to sell on the streets of Paris.) What was it about him that made Julien "dread his death for the first time?" Can he be thinking seriously for the first time about the possibility of an afterlife?

- Traudee - "Julien does not believe in God, not even a benevolent one." I'm not sure I understood that. Especially when he considers the "great perhaps" I loved that - wonder how the actual French expresses this possibility of an afterlife? He seems to be leaving the door open - with the one word "perhaps"- n'est-ce pas?

He does seem to reject the Biblical God if taken literally as he has memorized. Perhaps because he knows he wouldn't fare well in such judgment?

-LauraD: "I don't recall us thinking that he would reject God himself." I don't either - although I don't remember any reaction or belief from Julien, the young seminarian to be, as he spouted the Biblical passages. As he considers the possibilities of the "great perhaps" - he seems to be assessing how he would do with each as his judge -

God of the Christians (Biblical) - vengeful, merciless despot
God of Fénelon - capable of pardoning him because he has felt much love.
God of Voltaire - infinitely just and kind

Julien is not so sure he has felt enough love to merit pardon. In addition to what Traudee says about him, I have two footnotes on Fénelon in the Norton Critical -

"Fénelon was a priest of the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century whose invocations of sincere feeling and relative doctrinal toleration appeared to the philosophes of the later eighteenth century (and so to Stendhal) as a model of Christian piety."

It sounds as if Fénelon's piety and loving nature would be someone to look forward to as a judge in the afterlife - except later another footnote in Chapter 44 - the one in which Julien is seriously looking for a good confessor, he says he wants someone like Fénelon - except " The Mémoires of Saint-Simon have spoiled Fénelon for me." This footnote reads:

"Saint-Simon's Mémoires portray Fénelon as an unctuous insinuating man with a great passion for making himself well-liked."

Sounds like the "oily, unctuous, insinuating" priest who visited Julien in his cell!

The last bell has tolled for Julien. His two lovers try to outdo each other in their loyalty to his memory. One carries his head about on her knees. The other manages to die without committing suicide.

The last chapters are really so overwrought and melodramatic that I could only give a sickly smile as I closed the last page.I know of no other great book that ends on such an unrealistic note. But then again, I have not read all of the great books.

Juliens desire for death comes partially from his relationship with his own Father. J. says (Re: the money he is leaving his Father) ..."he will show his gold to all the envious men in Verrieres. 'Which of you would not be so delighted to have a son guillotined at a price like this', will be the message they will read in his eyes."

That statement is truly tragic and true. And so we have a mix up in the last pages of truth and melodrama. And Stendhal leaves us with a sardonic smile and the words "To the Happy Few" at the end of chapter 45. Whoever those happy few are, they are not in this novel.

Judy

Marni, I thank you so much for the wikipedia article on the de-Christianization of France. I had no idea that all the things mentioned in the article had occurred. I read a book a couple of years ago called The Garden of Martyrs (one I recommend, by the way). One of the characters is a French priest, one who fled France during this religious upheaval. The book provided some information on a particular event of the period via flashbacks, but certainly did not give me any notion as to the scope of the de-Christianization.

I felt Julien was “neutral” (for lack of a better word) about religion. I didn’t think he had any strong feelings either way and that’s why I was surprised by the force with which he spoke in the passage I cited in my earlier post.

Joan, thank you for categorizing the different religious views mentioned in the book. That information gives me a better perspective on Julien’s thinking.

I am learning so much!

Judy, I agree that the last chapters were a bit too much. Frankly, I was grossed out when I read of Mathilde kissing Julien’s head and carrying it on her lap. Blah!

Upon closing the book, I finally realized what the meaning of the title The Red and the Black is to me! Red symbolizes love and black symbolizes death. In this book, love and death do go together. Both Julien and Madame de Renal die so that no part of their relationship remains, and Julien dies so that the only remnant of his and Mathilde’s relationship is their child. However, as Joan said, we don’t really know what became of the child, if it was born, etc.

MARNI, in addition to your excellent link let me now mention another :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

Please scroll down all the way to 'Months'. It shows how fundamentally different the Republican Calendar was from the Gregorian.
It, the Republican Calendar, was in full force and effect until Napoleon abolished it in 1806.

Take a look at the NAMES (rather inventive and with heavy reliance on Latin) given to the days of the week and the months of the year. The week had 10 days, every month had 30. An absolutely fascinating era in world history, in my opinion.

Here's more on François Fénelon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francois_Fenelon

JUDY, true, at this point the reader is exhausted, even disappointed.

However, after all we read about Julien, could we really expect perfection from him ?
Can we expect perfection from any man or woman ? Aren't we all fallible ?

The analytical reflections interspersed in my French text categorize this novel as "un roman d'éducation" = literally, a novel of education, in which the main character undergoes different experiences in different locations and situations. The German equivalent is "Bildungsroman"(see Goethe. In literature the word is used as such, untranslated.

The changes in Julien were not so much internal as external, I believe. He did pretty much what was asked of him, both in the seminary, as secretary to he Marquis de la Mole, and during the business travels he took overseeing the properties of the de la Moles. He was a keen observer and becamae a fasidious dresser. He participated in the "mission" (about which, incidentally, we never hear again).

But Julien's striving was always from HIMself and for HIS advancement. He was what we call a status seeker and a social climber. They are still around - there's nothing new under the sun where human traits are concrned.

It has been said that we basically do not change, rather we remain what we are; we actually become more so.

"I know of no other great book that ends on such an unrealistic note."
"And so we have a mix up in the last pages of truth and melodrama" -

I've been thinking of what you said - and wonder how else Stendhal might have ended the novel,Judy.
Do you find yourself asking why Stendhal wrote the book? If he was telling a 19th century love story, I think he misses the mark. If he was using the love story to hook readers into reading his satire on the Church and the Aristocracy...and to reduce the position of these two groups in the minds of the bourgeoisie, did he succeed? Did Julien not succeed in achieving his ambitions because there wasn't room for him to grow in the overwhelming, oppressive society in which he lived.

Traudee's observation is worth considering. - "It has been said that we basically do not change, rather we remain what we are; we actually become more so." Do you agree? Recently we had our 50th High School reunion. That was the question we each had to answer - are you the same person you were in high school 50 years ago, only more so? It was quite an ice-breaker. Brought us all back to where we left off...

"Julien's desire for death comes partially from his relationship with his own Father." Will you expand a bit on this? I really feel you are on to something.

Thanks for the links, Traude. LauraD, so true - we've learned a lot in attempting to understand Julien's Paris of the 1830's. I think we are well-prepared for Madame Orczy's Scarlet Pimpernel - another interesting dual character, wearing different costumes to suit his different roles - much like Superman/Clark Kent. Judy, I hope you will join us in this one. It will be suspenseful and fun. No mind games, lots of action. The Baroness seems to have no ulterior motive - simply to entertain.

I guess we never did figure out which shade of blue Julien wore for M. de La Mole - the sky blue of Robespierre or the navy of Napoleon. This reminds me - we never had a closing scene with M. de La Mole, did we? Thought he'd pop up again. His closing lines were his remarks on the letter he received from Madame de Rênal. After that letter, he seems to have washed his hands of his daughter and her pregnancy.

LauraD - your Red/Love and Black/Death has been entered to our longish list of possibilities. (I like your personal response to the title very much.) Perhaps Stendhal had a number of reasons. I don't know that we will ever learn what Stendhal had in mind with his title, but I do think we have come closer than some of the publishers and translators who see the two colors only as the Army and the Clergy.

Will you all take a look at the list we've accumulated over the last two months and see if there is anything you would like to add? (You may only take something off the list if YOU submitted the entry and have now changed your mind.) Our Interpretations of the Red and the Black in the novel's title
Don't vote yet, okay? Just take a look at the list to see if we've overlooked any possibilities.

I'm off to read more about Mathilde's role model, Marguerite de Navarre for clues how Mathilde might have carried on after the birth of the poor baby.

JoanP: I found the color "sky-blue" a number of times when I did a search in the online version. Perhaps it was just a popular color of the times?? However, it was the color Julien wore when he was playing "dress-up." The Marquis de la Mole liked to wear sky-blue, too. And even Mathilde's eyes were sky-blue.

"But each of the members of the Guard of Honour possessed or had borrowed one of those sky-blue coats with a pair of colonel's epaulettes in silver, which had shone in public seven years before....."

"There he [Julien] discarded with a sigh his fine sky-blue coat, his sabre, his epaulettes, to resume the little threadbare black coat....."

"Julien was within six paces of the King, who was praying with genuine fervour. He noticed for the first time a small man of intelligent appearance, whose coat was almost bare of embroidery. But he wore a sky-blue riband over this extremely simple coat. He was nearer to the King than many other gentlemen, whose coats were so covered with gold lace that, to use Julien's expression, one could not see the cloth. He learned a minute later that this was M. de La Mole."

"While the Marquis de Croisenois, unable to penetrate the throng, stood gazing at Mathilde with a smiling air, she allowed her large, sky-blue eyes to rest upon him and his neighbours...."

Plain blue was mentioned often, too - Julien had a blue great coat, there were a number of blue ribbons, a blue sofa, blue porcelain. After he was guillotined, Julien's remains were wrapped in his blue great coat at the end when Fouque was sitting with the body and Mathilde came in.

I just did a search on "black" in the online version. I think the most I saw the word "black" - by far!! - was in regard to Julien's black coat that he was forced to wear because of his position. I think the black coat represented the man he was to the public - his position as abbe, as tutor, as seminary student, as secretary - his more menial positions, a subservient status - not the man he aspired to be. Remember how his father and Monsieur de Renal dickered over the cost of Julien's black coat when he was first to get the coat? He later had to wear it for de la Mole except during the blue coat pretenses. The black coat also was almost a symbol of a bourgeois attitude.

"'I, a poor peasant from the Jura,' he [Julien] kept on repeating, 'I, I condemned always to wear this dismal black coat! Alas, twenty years ago, I should have worn uniform like them! In those days a man of my sort was either killed, or _a General at six and thirty_.' The letter, which he kept tightly clasped in his hand, gave him the bearing and pose of a hero. 'Nowadays, it is true, with the said black coat, at the age of forty, a man has emoluments of one hundred thousand francs and the Blue Riband, like the Bishop of Beauvais."

In the case of the bishop's black coat, black is the color of the priest's clothing - the ambitious priest who has money and has collected the Blue Riband but perhaps does not deserve it - the cynical picture of the priesthood Stendhal draws.

I also found the word "black" describing the following:

"the man in black"
black whiskers
black line traced on piece of wood
suit of black
black horsehair in helmets
Bible bound in black
Julien's arched black eyebrows
small box of shiny black pasteboard
black sky
black night
black ambition
body-servants in black coats
black oak paneling in a gothic room
heart black as night
black and blue after a thrashing
porter's black coat
door painted black
abbe Pirard's little black eyes and hair black as jet
laborer's black bread
black cassock
"perhaps the life he led in the Seminary is too black for the modest colouring which we have sought to preserve in these pages."
black crime
black marble
black gown
black mourning clothes the 30th of April
black uncertainty
black, enormous, fearful body--the hunter's boot

Now I'm going to look up "red."

I read that in heraldry, red is used to indicate courage. Maybe that's something. Courage was one of Julien's ideals. Throughout the book, it was critical to him that he be courageous, particularly at his death.

I found this about the meaning of the color red on the web:

"Red is the color of fire and blood, so it is associated with energy, war, danger, strength, power, determination as well as passion, desire, and love. Red is a very emotionally intense color. It enhances human metabolism, increases respiration rate, and raises blood pressure. It has very high visibility, which is why stop signs, stoplights, and fire equipment are usually painted red. In heraldry, red is used to indicate courage. It is a color found in many national flags.

http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-meaning.html

There is not nearly as much of the word "red" mentioned in the text as black. I see it in the book most as blood, or flame, or red in the face, or color of a material. Here are some other examples from the book:

red roof tiles
"Julien thought he saw blood by the holy water stoup; it was some of the water that had been spilt: the light from the red curtains which draped the windows made it appear like blood"
"His Majesty deigned to permit the girls who had accompanied him into the chapel to wear a red riband upon which were embroidered the words: 'HATRED OF IMPIETY, PERPETUAL ADORATION"
red morocco case
red face
red spots
red cheeks
drape each of the gothic pillars which separate the nave from the aisles in a sort of jacket of red damask
blushed red
Mathilde's eyes red from weeping
caught red-handed
flash of reddish flame

I got my copy of the Castle used on Amazon.

Traude, thanks for the links. The French Republican calendar was fun to look at!

"It has been said that we basically do not change, rather we remain what we are; we actually become more so." Do you agree?

Absolutely! People do mature (usually), are able to act more socially appropriate, if they want to, but deep down, the basic character traits remain the same. Here is a little anecdote about myself to illustrate:

Upon entering college, I had to provide a picture of myself and two interests. This was 19 years ago and I had forgotten what I had put as my two interests. Within the last year, I found my freshman “pig book.” I had listed “reading” and “people.” And what am I doing 19 years later --- book discussion groups! Many of my other interests from childhood still remain with me --- crafts, swimming, house decorating, and baseball, to name a few.

My book contains one additional meaning of the title that we did not mention --- black is boredom and red is revolution.

Usually, I reread classics. As I read this one, I thought about rereading it in the future. The ending changed my mind. What's the right word? Bizarre? What in the end does Stendahl want us to take with us? Are we to see the lives of Mathilde and Julien as the most tragic of all the characters in the book?

"It has been said that we basically do not change, rather we remain what we are; we actually become more so." Do you agree?

No, I don't agree. I think people can change. Tragic events or very happy events can become life changing moments for people. Some people change. Some people don't change. Most importantly, there are people who do change and become better or worse.

Hats-I do agree with what you said about people and change. The only thing I might disagree with is that people become "worse". The seeds of "worse" and\ or self destruction are either implanted at an early age (psychological reasons) or are a result of disturbed brain or body chemistry.

This brings us back to Julien and his relationship with his Father. No mention is made of his mother or a nurse who may have nurtured him. It is possible that his mother died in childbirth and his father sees Julien as the reason he lost his wife. Or perhaps Julien is not "manly" as his brothers are. Or perhaaps he is not his Father's son and was fathered by another man and thus elicits jealousy in the father who raised him. Stendhal gives us no clue and states facts that make the father a usurious , bad-tempered, mean task master who saw no worth in Julien and thus some of that devastating feeling of lack of self-worth must have become infused in Juliens mind and soul.

Julien is a man who seeks power and position but more than anything he is a man who seeks love. Love gives him the self worth his damaged soul needs to survive. It is an exhaustive experience when the two women who love him best are fighting over him. Death is seen as an escape from all his travails. His energy is not without end since , unlike a loved son, he has no deep resources within himself to draw upon. His father wants his money. Mathilde wants his body-symbolized by the head she carries around and by the baby growing within her. Mme. de Renal wants his soul and joins with him in death.

What a story !!

The following questions are reproduced from http://www.readinggroupguides.com/guides3/red_and_the_black1.asp

1. Does it matter whether or not Stendhal's detailed, vivid, deeply and fully realized "history" is accurate? It is brilliantly presented, massively marshaled; characters and action ring powerfully true. But is it trustworthy?

2. Julien not only surrenders quite readily to the death penalty: he fairly embraces it. Is this, like so many of his actions throughout the book, yet more reckless romanticism? Or is it in some way different and deeper? Does the earlier part of the book fit with/lead up to this ending? Or, as has sometimes been suggested, is the ending either tacked on or, still worse, melodramatic?

3. Stendhal's France is portrayed–at every level– as an immensely materialistic society. In the final analysis, is Père Sorel either more or less materialistic than the Marquis de La Mole? Would this social portrait have been different if Stendhal had been a native American and was writing about the United States?

4. Mathilde de La Mole and Madame de Rênal are almost startlingly unlike, in virtually all respects. Yet both of them are passionately in love with Julien Sorel, a man who is completely unlike either of them or their expectations and dreams for themselves. Does Julien earn their love? Does he deserve it?

5. Julien Sorel hungers for epic success, and very nearly achieves it. We learn that he has had a grindingly difficult experience of lower bourgeois existence as well as the Church. He has had an almost equally chilling experience of both high bourgeois and aristocratic life. Where–if anywhere–could he possibly have found himself at home?

6. Julien Sorel's weaknesses are perhaps easier to see than his strengths, which tend to be simple and basic. Stendhal repeatedly notes that Julien does not have a first-rate mind. (Stendhal himself had exactly the same astonishing memory he gives to Julien.) In The Red and the Black, do simple, basic virtues succumb to or prevail over more complex and rigorously intellectual capabilities? In any case, Stendhal is emphatically not a utopian. But what image of a good, or perhaps merely a better, society finally emerges from his book?

7. The Church plays an enormous role in the entire novel, much of it decidedly negative. But does the large roster of Church officials, ranging from very high to very low, support the frequently heard claim that Stendhal was fiercely and fundamentally anticlerical?

8. Napoleon, too, figures hugely in the novel (though not as an active character), but this is not simply because he has had an enormous and continuing influence on Julien Sorel. Napoleon's entire career, and especially his long reign as ruler of France, is subjected to intense examination, and from many different perspectives. Again, it has often been said that Stendhal was more or less a Napoleon worshiper. Is this true?

9. Stendhal himself had been a soldier–he had endured, and survived, the Grand Army's devastating retreat from Moscow. Many of the novel's characters are or have been military men; military issues are frequently discussed and debated. In The Red and the Black, is there a clearly cohesive, or even a straightforward, view of war and either its advocates or its critics? Or is Stendhal here, too, attempting a broader and multivalenced portrayal than critics sometimes seem to recognize?

10. For roughly half a century, Balzac was virtually the only significant figure in French literature to express appreciation of and deep respect for Stendhal's fiction. This is plainly not an accident. What makes these two novelists similar? Dissimilar? Why did the twentieth century see an enormous rise in Stendhal's literary reputation and influence, exactly as he himself had predicted?

11. Love, in all its many aspects, plainly fascinated Stendhal the novelist, as it clearly fascinated him as a man. Yet it has often been argued that, properly considered, Stendhal (born in 1783) was not in fact a Romantic. How does the evidence proffered in The Red and the Black support or contradict this argument?

12. There can be no doubt that Stendhal finds social relationships and the customs and rules that regulate them to be of the very highest interest. Is this either an essentially French or an essentially nineteenth-century preoccupation? Are there twentieth-century novelists, in France or elsewhere, who share Stendhal's profound interest in manners?

13. The Marquis de La Mole is about as fully and fairly drawn as any character in the history of fiction. We see him magnificent, we see him base. He can be open-minded and generous; he can be closed-minded, autocratic, and even niggardly. We see him love, and we see him hate. What does Stendhal intend us to understand from this remarkable portrait?

14. Stendhal's evocations of place ("descriptions" would surely be too meager and inadequate a word to describe them) are dazzling. He evokes with the same glowing three-dimensionality countryside, towns, cities, and entire countries. In The Red and the Black, place receives very nearly as much authorial attention as does character, even though it is fair to say that Stendhal is as sensitive and attuned to his characters as any fiction writer in history. Why does place receive such large attention? Is it deserved? Is it necessary? Is it perhaps excessive? Or is it exactly right for Stendhal's purposes?

15. Stendhal's style– the way he writes–is almost magically effective. The very rhythms and shapes of his sentences help him to evoke the fullest possible shades of meaning. What stylistic role is played by Stendhal's choice of individual words? What kinds of words does he favor? What kinds does he shun? Is he consistent in such matters? Who–if anyone–does his style seem to resemble, in any significant way(s)?

Zany: Those are great questions! But they are so hard! Most I don't feel I am able to answer. But I'll take a stab at part of #2:

I think Julien embraces death at the end with less reckless romanticism than he had earlier in the book. However, I think what immediately led up to his death, the attempted murder of Mme de Renal, was reckless. The crime's aftermath caught up with Julien. He had so much time to think about his life, his aspirations, his relationships, society, man and nature, the church. I felt that Julien was truly horrified by the murder he had attempted upon a woman he loved even though he had at first believed he must avenge wrongs against him. He felt afterward that he should be punished according to law.

It may have been important to Julien to be treated equally as others for punishment for the crime - not to be given special aristocratic treatment or deals that only the rich could buy. I think it was important to Julien that his death be the right thing to do.

I don't think Julien wanted to live any longer. His dreams were shattered. What was there left for him? He was cynical and depressed and becoming sick and weak. He had given up on everything except his love for Mme de Renal and for desiring a good upbringing for his son.

All there was for him personally was a courageous death, something he had always dreamed of. Yes, I think the book led up to this throughout. Death was always a topic. Valient death was always a dream - whether to die as a man in war, or in a duel, or in some other courageous manner. I suppose that might have been the times. War, duels, combat, glory. A young man's dream. Romantic, yes, but also realism.

I thought Julien's death at the end was inevitable and pre-determined. What else could possibly have happened? In Mathilde's eyes, Julien died the manliest of deaths, having tried to avenge his honor and her honor. Exactly what she had often hoped for her lover - to die the death of Boniface de la Mole. How Mathilde had dreamed of bravely holding her lover's head like the strong Marguerite.

And the death of the lovely gentle Mme de Renal. This part was certainly melodramatic. Again, what else could possibly have been a better ending? She had left her husband. She was nothing without Julien. Her quick death led her to be with her true love. Corny and romantic and sad - certainly. But what would have been a more fitting ending?

Since we are all talking about the ending, I thought I would share a paragraph about the ending from the introduction in my book:

“These issues come to a head as this brilliantly plotted novel rushes toward its ending, or rather its two endings. The first is a conventional ‘happy ending,’ defined by the amazing and unexpected success of Julien’s project of upward mobility. The second ending, harder to characterize, is defined by a sudden reversal of that success --- a pistol shot (taken from the newspaper account that gave Stendhal his original idea for the novel) and the surprisingly extended section of the novel that Julien spends in prison. But it is arguable that, strange as it may seem, this ending is actually happier.”

Well, I certainly hadn’t thought of the ending of the novel in this way! I think this is a very interesting way to look at it. Yes, Julien had achieved a position in the upper reaches of society, but he was not happy and he was hypocritical in doing so. He only felt content after renouncing Mathilde and the trappings of society life, eliminating hypocrisy from his life, and accepting the punishment for his wrong doing.

Now, to check out Zany's questions...

Bonjour mes amis!

It is so good to be back with you! I tried all day yesterday, honest! Wednesday was so black, I don't even want to repeat it - but will give the bare outline, leaving out the red reaction and you'll get an idea -

- car died in Target parking lot - tow, repair, alternator, (alternator "ate the 3 month new battery") = $900+ (!)

- mixed meeting place agreement with husband at the next store- (who hates shopping, but needed an anniversary gift for pm) - each waiting an hour in a different spot!

- dishwasher broke down right before leaving for party (!)

- dog managed to get (and ingest) new package of thyroid tablets from countertop - all 90 tablets, bag, plastic container while out at party (!)

- poison control phone answerer said we had to "empty her stomach" - or find a vet (it was midnight) to administer charcoal(!!!)

Today will have to be a better one! The only bright spot - you all carried on here magnificently. I'm still puzzling over the interesting questions Zany brought to the table - and your posts. - I'll need some time to catch up with you. Thanks everyone - it is good to be back to the calm of the Revolution.

JoanP, what a day! Those sort of days come and thank goodness they go. Sorry you had to go through all that dreary stuff. How is your pet today?

For Joan P my intense gratitude for keeping us motivated throughout.

Years ago, my relatively new spouse and I had gone together to the mall for the post-Xmas sale. Somehow, we got separated, each going out a different door into the circular parking lot. Back in the store we went, but still could not find one another. Back outside to meet at the car, but in the darkness, we could not find it or remember where we had parked. how would we get home?

Then, abruptly, we bumped into one another and I realized it did not matter whether we found the car that night or not as we were home.

Joan- A day to remember! (or to forget-depending on your attitude to life).Hope your dog survived that nightmare. A midnight visit to an Emergency Animal Clinic once cost us $500. In fact all that happened to you has happened to us but NOT in one day. Is this a fitting ending to this discussion? I think so. The madness of fate reigns and logic has run into the back alley.

I woke up this morning and my first thought was red and black. In that half waking state my mind told me that Red is for Passion and Black is for Death in this novel. True or not, that is what my heart and sub-concious has whispered to me.Perhaps each of us will decide on a different meaning-but that is a genius of a writer at work. Each of us looks into this tale and sees different , but equally true,meanings.

Joan, what a day! Today's a day to take a breather!

Zany, those questions are something! I could literally write a 4-5 page paper about each. I feel like having so thoroughly discussed the book, only now would I be prepared to write such essays. The book does provide a lot to think, talk, and write about. I think that is a credit to the author. And I think it is a credit to our group that I feel I could answer the questions, in essay form no less!

Thanks for the sympathy notes, mes amis! They help. Misery loves company, so true. Zany - you and your wife are friends again, I take it? So there is hope for me?

Hats - pup is fine - her normal self this morning, though she's not eating anything yet. It's amazing what a tablespoon of hydrogen peroxide in a few ounces of milk will do, Judy a lot cheaper than a midnight visit to the Emergency Pet Hospital would have been from what you say!

LauraD, I meant to take a breather today - but still following through after yesterday's horrors. Had a class this morning I had totally forgotten about , wasn't prepared, but made it and tried to focus. Realized that the little clicker on the car key doesn't work any more on the door locks - guess the alternator killed the chip inside, as well as the battery.

Still have no Father's Day present - and need to do something about grendson's birthday presents - we're flying to Memphis early Monday morning. Will try to do that now. Enough about me, but I really did appreciate your comments!

Judy - I have been looking through our interpretations of Red/Black that have been accumlating since we started back in April. I'm not sure we will ever all agree on what Stendhal had in mind when he changed the book's title from "Julien" to " Le Rouge et Le Noir" but would like to attempt to see how close we come. Will "passion for life" fit your idea of "passion?

When setting up a poll, a tally, I notice"d that there are many suggestions that we probably are ready to reject. I, however, don't want to do the deletions myself - would like to hear from you - as a committee

. You can check as many items as you think Stendhal may have had in mind. When we streamline the list, will have a more clear-cut choice. I know I've changed my mind since we startaed and would like to leave off some of the ideas I tossed out early-on.

Will you please try this link to see if its access has been opened yet?
Our Interpretations of the Title, Le Rouge et Le Noir

Will put this in the heading now -

JoanP: I would add to the Black list that black means servility, as represented by Julien's black coat.

I did the survey above, clicked Submit, and ended on a screen about creating surveys.

I hope your day is much better than yesterday and I hope the doggie is feeling well. My goodness!

Thanks, Marni! -

Funny you had the option of creating your own survey!!! Will ask the TECH team to see what's wrong. Hold on!

OK, Marni - will include black = servility as represented in Julien's black coat - in the final version. I thought it was there, but don't see it now. (Thank you for all your research on the colors!!!)

When I get back - Father's Day gift in hand, I intend to tackle the last chapter of the book - and also Zany's question #13. Not sure I agree with whomever wrote the question, but it is fascinating to consider -

"13. The Marquis de La Mole is about as fully and fairly drawn as any character in the history of fiction. We see him magnificent, we see him base. He can be open-minded and generous; he can be closed-minded, autocratic, and even niggardly. We see him love, and we see him hate. What does Stendhal intend us to understand from this remarkable portrait?"

Oh JOAN !!! All those mishaps in one day !! Surely today was much better.
I can empathize especially with the dog story. (I hope yours is doing well.)
Several long years ago before the grands came, my son and DIL took me to the family Thanksgiving celebration in New Hampshire. They left their Doberman here in my house.

When we came back late at night, poor Baron's body was grossly swollen and he was barely breathing. He had eaten an entire unopened package of cookies, including the packing. Son and DIL rushed him to an all-night clinic twenty miles away and had to leave him there. Baron had surgery the following day but did not rally and died a few hours later.

It was hard for all of us and could have been prevented if the dog had been crated. And thereafter every dog they and I owned was crated. ___________________________

Readers' Guide Questions can be very helpful. Many contemporary paperbacks include a version at the end of the book. As a rule, they cover the entire book. Therefore, if a book is discussed in chapters over time, unread events can be revealed prematurely. Of course, that was not true here.

I have often wondered who writes these guides and what possible answer could be given e.g. to the question such as "Why did the author do such and such instead of so and so ?", or "Why did the author omit the name of so and so?", something that only the author can know!

Would that we had time to answer all of the RG quetions ZANY posted. In that case I'd like to take on # 4, because I do not agree that Madame de Rênal and Mathilde were "almost startlingly alike".

There's no denying that we tend to read the same passages differently, thereby coming to different conclusions. However, in B&L we have never sought consensus; all opinions and impressions were considered, none flatly "thrown out".

Regarding RG question 7.
Stendhal was a Liberal, a Bonapartist, and a free-thinker. On that basis he has been accused by certain critics of undue bias. But the historical picture he gives us in this book of France in 1825-30 has been corrborated long since.

Furthermore, and specifically with reference to RG question # 13 , Stendhal's sympathetic protrayals of the Ultra Royalist Marquis de la Mole, as well as of the two Jansenist priests, Father Pirard anf Father Chélan, go far to clear the author of the charge of being an extremist.
I do not believe Stendhal was "fiercely and fundamentally anticlerical". Those attributes fit Voltaire (1694-1778) much better, in my opinion.

My French text contains a short chapter which deals with possible explanations of the title, and I've translated it for our consideration.

" The classical interpretation : Red for the uniform of the army Julien would have loved to wear.
Black for the habit of a priest, the conventional attire of a tutor and of a secretary.

- The title could refer to the colors in the game of roulette.

- The title might indicate two female figures blending the two colors, which lends meaning to the coordinating conjunction "and".

Louise would be associated with red, which is a sign of both modesty and burning passion. She can be identified also with black when she returns to fervent piety after Julien's departure, and she enters the solemn and rather sombre sphere of the church. In the end, red prevails, the color of blood, when Julien's pistol shot wounds her in the choulder.

Mathilde is defined early with black, the color of mourning on every 30 of April, but that black is associated also with the red of passion of the two mythical lovers whose hisory ends in blood - a symbolic and premonitory association with the role of widow, represented by red and black, a role Mathilde incarnates at the end of the novel.

A hero in red and black : Julien wears black through most of the novel, but his imagining heroic deeds in Napoleon's army shows him on the side of red. From the very beginning Julien is associated with both colors. According to the Abbé Chélan, Julien possesses "a sombre passion at heart", an interesting oxymoron that defines the contradictory forces battling in him,
the conflic between his ambitious, hypocritical, dissimulating black soul, and his noble, glowing, red soul, animated by the fire of his passion.

An enigma by definition remains unsolved and mysterious; few essays on a definitive meaning are available.

But another color is important in the text: blue !
Blue for the uniform of the honor gard; blue for the coat the Marquis lent Julien; blue finally for the cloak that covered Julien's body.

Another color to explore, a game for your to play ! "

Bonjour mes amis!

Merci à tous, thanks to all of you who have had a hand in tightening up the long list of our group's thoughts on Stendhal's reasons for changing the title from "Julien" to "Le Rouge et Le Noir."

We do know that there is no definitive answer to this question as those who have studied his work closely continue to be divided. Maybe someday someone will come across some critical letter or document in Stendhal's own hand in which he explains what prompted him. Here's part of a discussion on this question - Couleur Symbolism of Le Rouge et Le Noir

Traudee - I agree, the blue is interesting for a number of reasons. Weren't you imagining Napoleon's dark blue, navy blue coat whenever mention was made of Julien's "blue coat?" Then we remembered the light blue, the sky blue of the King's guard - the one Madame de Rênal ordered for Julien to wear in the parade. Marni found reference to Robespierre's "sky blue" coat too.

Napoleon in blue - sky blue?

"Sky Blue (used by Lauzon's Hussars and Infantry and numerous French Cavalry units in the Napoleonic period..." Military Uniforms

What continues to puzzle me - the articles such as the one Traudee just quoted which state: "" The classical interpretation : Red for the uniform of the army Julien would have loved to wear."
I have never seen a red French military uniform, have you? I've looked at dozens of pictures and don't see any red...

Let's leave the uncut list up for the rest of the day and then send the final poll out to everyone. I am curious as to the end result - and believe it will be as valid as any other assessment after our careful reading of this book.

Please do join our committee to narrow the uncut list in preparation for the Final Title Evaluation tomorrow - Our Interpretations of the Title, Le Rouge et Le Noir

About Blue- I was reading a book called Kabbalah (Jewish Mysticism) and I came across this paragraph that I will share with you. It's a different twist on the subject.

"Blue the color of the sea and the color of the sky. 'And beneath God's feet was the likeness of sapphire stones, like the purity of the sky itself'-Exodus 24:10. And blue: the color associated with God's fleeting feminine presence."

And "Red", I had forgotten ,is the title of the book by Orham Pamuk which was discussed on this site. In that book red had dozens of meanings as well-although blood was one of the more important ones. The author won a Nobel prize for this book and perhaps Stendhal might have been a candidate for one as well.

At last, I have some time to read through your reactions to the last chapters and the ending of the story.

Hats - You see it as "bizarre." Laura was "grossed out and Judy the final chapters "overwrought and melodramatic...I know of no other great book that ends on such an unrealistic note"

I've been thinking about what you've said. Wouldn't you think that Stendhal's readers felt much the same way at the close of the book? They were expecting a Romance - and they got one, didn't they? Hats asks what message Stendhal wants us to take with us - "Are we to see the lives of Mathilde and Julien as the most tragic of all the characters in the book?"

Do you think it was odd that it wasn't until a dozen years later, shortly before his death, when Balzac praised his work - his realism, that the public gave the book another look.

From my desktop - I think it was from a blurb for a book on French Studies - "Stendhal’s great novel The Red and the Black, published in 1830, is seen today as one of the most distinguished monuments of literary realism."

I think we really can't view the book as an epic Romance of the sort to which the readers of 1830s were accustomed. Marni - "A young man's dream. Romantic, yes, but also realism." Will you expand on this? Do you think the ending was realistic, or the book?

LauraD - two endings, yes, I can see the first ending as Julien sees all his dreams fulfilled - he sabatoges his future with the shooting. The second, his contentment as he "eliminates hypocrisy from his life and accepts punishment." This is Stendhal's happy ending which the Romantics could not see in 1830.

To the very end, Stendhal kept us guessing whether Julien would buckle in exchange for the good opinion of the public. But when his the Jansenist confessor came to his cell, offering him eternal salvation in exchange for a grand public conversion - I knew he wouldn't, couldn't accept. I thought the novel ending on quite a powerful note, as Julien rejected all help from the Church and Mathilde's endeavors to sway the Aristocracy. If Stendhal's intent was to weaken the Church and the Aristocracy by making both institutions appear base, greedy and hypocritical, I feel he succeeded.

Judy, we were posting together. Yes, Pamuk sure used a lot of Red symbolism - but there were some obvious reasons for the title, didn't you think? Would you have voted to award "Le Rouge" a ~~Pulitzer~~ Nobel Prize if sitting on the panel?

JoanP, if I keep the word "realism" in mind, I have no problem understanding Stendahl's novel. I just can't relate it to a romance, not even a tragic romance.

I have forgotten when Stendahl's books was published. When The Red and The Black was published, what was life like in France? Were the people living like in the Roaring Twenties, life was good and prosperous or were they living like in the times of the Depression, sad and needy? I would think an author would write about realism when life is prosperous hoping to make people live with their feet on the ground, keeping their sense about them, not throwing money to the wind. When did realistic novels begin being published in France? Was Stendahl's the first one?

Stendhal definitely wanted to shake his public up. He shook me up. After finishing the book, I haven't picked the book up again. I think at the end, Mathilde is riding and carrying Julien's head along with her. Did Stendahl see women as gaining control in France? Was he trying to say anything about women and a change for them in French society?

Judy, I find your post very interesting especially this sentence.

"And blue: the color associated with God's fleeting feminine presence." (Judy)

Is Stendahl trying to make a last point about women? Since Julien is lying under the blue cloak does this mean French men will have to learn to share their power with women? Does it mean that French women will soon come to overcome the power of the French men?

JoanP, your last question about the Pulitzer addressed to Judy is very interesting. In order to be considered a Pulitzer, what elements must a novel have?

Enough days have passed I can pick up my book again.

- Hats, I can certainly see why it is difficult to keep the word "realism" in mind when one of the closing scenes is the young girl with her lover's head in her lap - kissing his lips and burying him with her own little hands. To me, the scene dramatizes just how far over the top Mathilde has gone in her dreams of grandeur.
I did a little reading on her role model - Marguerite de Navarre. Marguerite herself was an author, a writer of fiction back in the 16th century. But Mathilde takes everything about her literally - as gospel truth.

There are many similarities between the two ladies - probably because Mathilde worked so hard to be like Marguerite!

"Marguerite's education was extensive, and she read widely in classical philosophy and the Scriptures. This was unheard of for women at this time.

Although Marguerite loved Henry of Guise, her ambitious mother would never allow the House of Guise any chance of controlling France. Instead, she offered to marry Marguerite to Philip II's son Don Carlos but that did not work out. Serious negotiations for Marguerite's marriage to Dom Sebastian of Portugal were also considered but abandoned.

Marguerite was made to marry Henry de Bourbon (later Henry de Navarre and eventually Henry IV), the son of the Protestant Jeanne d'Albret, Queen of Navarre, a marriage that was designed to reunite family ties and create harmony between the Catholics and Huguenots. Although Henry's mother, Jeanne d'Albret, Queen of Navarre, opposed the marriage, many of her nobles supported it, and the marriage was arranged." Marguerite de Valois

I read somewhere else that Marguerite was so well-educated and well-read that her marriage prospects (and husbands) bored her. She probably bored them too, as they usually shared different lodgings.

But not the daring Joseph Boniface de La Môle - her lover from Provençal.

He was implicated in plots with François and Henri, which due to Catherine de' Medici's hatred of him, led to him being tortured and beheaded in 1574, along with his friend Count Annibal de Coconas.

In other words, he did not die for love of Marguerite, but because of political intrigue. He was only one of many of her lovers. Does her history suggest that Mathilde will imitate her role model and continue on with her life, as Marguerite following the death of her Boniface? Maybe Mathilde will turn to writing as Marguerite did...
"She herself retired to meditate and pray, and composed numerous works of devotional poetry, including those published in the Marguerites de la Marguerite des princesses (1547). Her Miroir de l'âme pecheresse, first published in 1531, then again as the first poem in the Marguerites (1547), provoked the censure of the Sorbonne theologians for its expression of ideas associated with the religious reform movement.

Eventually, Marguerite withdrew from the world of politics and diplomacy more frequently and spent longer periods of time in the serenity of her various chateaux in southwestern France. Along with her works of spiritual poetry and theater, Marguerite began writing the novellas she envisioned would compose a French Decameron. She died before the project was complete, leaving 73 novellas that the editor, Claude Gruget, entitled the Heptameron (from the greek hepta, "seven") in his 1559 posthumous edition. Inspired by the Italian predecessor's model, Marguerite develops and animates the fictional frame around her novellas much more than does Boccaccio. The great diversity of stories and the often contradictory opinions of the "devisants" who tell and discuss them, reflects the complexity of human nature, the coexistence of good and bad in the world, the abyss between the spiritual and the material, and the dilemma of how to face that abyss."

Hats - Stendhal wrote the book in the same period he has set the novel - EXCEPT he includes in the title "A Chronicle of 1827" as if he doesn't know about the coming July Revolution of 1830. Actually, he wrote the book in 1830 - in the months following the revolution!

So, you can answer your question by referring to the book.

I don't think there were many Juliens and Mathildes at the time - but probably women like the wife of M. de Rênal, don't you think?

The bourgeoisie is living high at this time...ostentatiously- with great ambition to acquire more titles, more wealth. The aristocracy is desperately concerned about hanging on to property, fearing the revolution that threatens to take everything from them.

Realism in the French novel -

"While not a formal member of the Realist school, Honoré de Balzac is generally considered the chief precursor of French Realism. He is the author of La Comédie humaine, a series of novels published between 1842 and 1855.

The great figures of French Realism: among them are Gustave Flaubert, author of Madame Bovary (1857) and widely considered the father of the realistic novel; Guy de Maupassant, Flaubert's disciple and the acknowledged master of the realistic short story; and Emile Zola, principal theorist of Naturalism, a later development in Realism, and the author of the twenty-novel Les Rougon-Macquart series.">Realism - French Realism

Stendhal? He was writing at the very beginning of realism in French literature - too early to be appreciated.

"The fusion, or tension, of clearheaded analysis with romantic feeling is typical of Stendhal's great novels; he could be considered a Romantic realist.

Contemporary readers did not fully appreciate Stendhal's realistic style during the Romantic period in which he lived; he was not fully appreciated until the beginning of the 20th century. He dedicated his writing to "the Happy Few". This is often interpreted as a dedication to the few who could understand his writing, or a sardonic reference to the happy few who are born into prosperity (the latter interpretation is supported by the likely source of the quotation, Canto 11 of Byron's Don Juan, a frequent reference in the novel, which refers to 'the thousand happy few' who enjoy high society), or as referring to those who lived without fear or hatred."Stendhal/Realism

Joan- To give Stendhal a Nobel prize today for work in the past.?It would all depend on who he is contending against; i.e. who has been "short listed" for that year. Probably in 1830 he might have stood a chance. Against others of later years ,I'm not so sure. His world contemporary was, I think ,Jane Austen who probably would have beaten him out if they were giving prizes to women writers as well as to male writers.

Whether he won is irrelevant since he started a trend away from Romanticism towards Realism. I think the closest modern (20th century) writer to him is Tennessee Williams. Weird characters but very real ones.

This has been a wonderful journey . Thanks to all of you and especially to Joan who made it possible. I will join you in the Scarlet Pimpernel if my schedule allows.

JoanP, thank you for answering my questions. You were kind enough to repeat information given earlier. I also will leave now. I have very much enjoyed being introduced to Stendahl and his great novel. I am very much looking forward to The Scarlet Pimpernel in September. I would also like to say thank you to the other posters for giving of their time and knowledge and also, taking time to research links. Thank you.

Oh Hats, thank YOU, thanks to ALL of you for making this discussion meaningful and memorable for moi! Coming in here each day was such an eyeopener! Thank you so much! I look forward to the next Great Books selection and also hope to see ALL of you in Scarlet Pimpernel in September!

Before we move on to our next adventure, will you please take this one last short little survey to see how close we come to consensus on Stendhal's last minute change in the book's title from "Julien" to "Le Rouge et Le Noir?" Will post the results here on Monday evening. Again, MERCIE BEAUCOUP, MES AMIS!

Our Interpretations of the Title, Le Rouge et Le Noir - a Consensus?

JoanP, I have already taken the survey. I enjoyed doing it. I am anxious to see the results.

I'm impressed by the quality of the opinions expressed here. If you'd like to review one of the books that makes it through our (zanybooks.com) initial screening process (none have so far), please write to dodie@zanybooks.com to offer your (unpaid, alas) services.

D

JOAN,
It's been enjoyable for me to take a trip back to a fascinating period of French history.

I'm sorry my post # 895 was too late to be counted for purposes of the survey.
Anne Lamalle, Lecturer à Université d'Orléans, has given several explanations of the meaning of R&B, but clearly placed special emphasis on combining the red AND the black as merging wotjom a person's character, making him who and what he is ---- i.e. reminiscent of Goeothe's "Two souls, alas, dwell in my breast", which was mentioned also in Orhan Pamuk's novel 'Snow".

Over time, individual, single colors have come to broadly "mean" certain things
red for love; green for serenity (and "safe" when repainting a home before it's put on the market); blue for fidelity; yellow for envy.

Here, I tend to believe, the combination of the two colors is of crucial importance.

The literary luminaries who tried to decipher Stendhal's intended meaning of the title are not of one mind.
How can we be ? Why should we ?

Aah, ZANY, touché! You sound like a demanding taskmaster and are doubtless un concurrent formidable = a formidable competitor.

Thanks, Hats - it's been a pleasure having you with us each morning - our early bird!

Zany - I can't remember a single time you posted that didn't make me smile - and think. Right up to the very end - "If you'd like to review one of the books that makes it through our (zanybooks.com) initial screening process (none have so far)...

Traudee, I liked pairs too. Can't you see Stendhal with his publisher, arguing about the title. "Julien" didn't quite do it for him - and so Stendhal came back with "Le Rouge et Le Noir." It seems if he couldn't have the one man, he'd combine traits of the one man in the title.

We did have six pair of combinations on the original list.

1. The roulette colors
2. Red - Tacitists who support the Republic; Black = Tacitists who support the Machiavellian realpolitik
3. The Red and The Black may also mean the death of passion
4. The black = the dark days of France, a nation striving to find a new identity, the desire for power whether from the church or through commerce.
5. The Red and the Black" is a man (Louis-Phillipe, the 1830 King of the French)
6. Black = the Sacred Red = the Profane

I wonder if you saw that. That was the one in which you had unlimited choices for Red, Black and Pairs that you wanted to see on this final poll today. There was very little interest in the combinations presented - so they did not make the cut.

I've seen so many luminaries state what their opinions of what Stendhal had in mind. Why not our SeniorNet "luminaries?" We talked about doing this before we got started, knowing that there was no definitive answer from Stendhal. It will be interesting to see what our readers thought - as a group, after a close reading and discussion of the book.

I hope you responded, even though you would have preferred a combination. We will leave the site open until Monday pm, since a number of our participants are away for the weekend.

Joan, I voted a few days back. However as I stated before, great literature is when each person sees something of importance to him or herself in the contents. We might come to a consensus as to what time the sun sets but not as to the meaning of this extremely complex work and its title.

Hey, we had fun, didn't we ?

Best wishes,

Judy

Thank you everybody for your most interesting posts, I enjoyed reading them even if I didn't say very much. Thank you Joan P for taking this huge responsability, you are a fantastic leader, good luck on the Scarlet Pimpernel, a movie I saw years ago.

Thank you so much, JoanP, for being our wonderful DL and spending so much time and energy leading this fascinating discussion. And thank you, everyone, for joining in to make this discussion so lively. I'm so glad we had the opportunity to read and discussion The Red and the Black.

JOAN, I regret having been busy preparing - as best I could - for the visit of my California daughter. She arrived Saturday. It's been a long-time-no see since Christmas 2005.

Sorry I could not participate in the survey. Will you let us know the result before we, most reluctantly, let go ? Thank you.

Greetings from sunny (and hot!) Memphis, TN. Here for grandson's birthday tomorrow - he wants to go to the zoo to see the tiger cubs and polar bears. AT least the polar bear area is air conditioned.

I just took a look at the questionnaire - and there WAS group consensus as to what Stendhal MIGHT have had in mind when selecting the title for the book - but not total agreement (as expected)

Red = Revolution
Black= Catholic church (clergy)

Traudee's - enjoy your visit. 2005! Your post with the comments from "literary luminaries" on the importance of considering "combinations" and LauraD's observations of contrasts throughout our discussion were in my mind when I saw the results.

Stendhal portrayed a mixed-up character, torn between his ambition to rise in the Church and his love for Napoleon's ideals. A picture of internal conflict and contrast as he forced himself to bow to the demands of the aristocracy - and the church. When Stendhal changed his title from "Julien" to "Le Rouge et Le Noir" the result seems to have been a "combination, "a combination of contrasts" - Julien was indeed a young man in revolt - against the ruling powers, against the Church which controlled the aristocracy.

Judy, I think we are all in complete agreement with you - the endurance of these Great Books depends on the continued response of readers over the ages. We will all have different personal responses at different periods of history. It is this personal response that makes a book "Great."

Thanks to all of you for taking part in these discussions. I can't wait for our next adventure! In the meantime, enjoy the summer!