OK the biggie - we begin our read and discussion on February 14 - Our Valentine Gift. Now is the time to order y'alls book and maybe even order a bottle of the wine mentioned in the book. I understand it is a bit pricey compared to most Chianti wine.

Speaking of weather. Next time you’re around, please tell us more about sirocco. The descriptions of this weather phenomenon have always fascinated me – ever since it was described so amazingly by Joan Didion, although I don’t remember in what. I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves here, but, it seems to me that this wind was an important element in your story in some ways.

Charlie

I love it when one of our readers tells us that she was "enthralled" with a novel.  It leads to the immedicacy of running out and purchasing the book.  I just did that this AM.  What a bonus, to have Jeff S and his lovely new wife Valeria with us.  Valerian, isn't that an herb to induce calmness of presence?  Interesting thought.   I assure you both, you will enjoy this group as much as we enjoy having you here to enhance our discussion.

My book sits here awaiting me, along with the other 4 that I have committed to.  My company should be gone in about an hour , then I can get down to sme serious reading.

Page 3..."A litte Patience, please!"

Page 334..."Let's take the sheep back down to their stalls, and we'll see if we have any olive branches left over in the feed room for you to give to your lamb. Then we can think about feeding ourselves. We'll have breakfast with your grandmother, no? And what would you say about a little treat for breakfast? How about some honey and pepper and pecorino cheese?"

Oh, Great Spirit
Whose voice I hear in the winds,
And whose breath gives life to all the world,
hear me, I am small and weak,
I need your strength and wisdom.

The sound is lonely, haunting, surreal;
as if the voices of our ancestors
were howling through the canyons.

Hail the wind, my grandmother
for she brings loving, lifegiving rain
nourishing us as she nourishes our crops.

O Great Spirit of the South, whose warm breath of compassion melts the ice that gathers round our hearts, whose fragrance speaks of distant springs and summer days, dissolve our fears, melt our hatreds, kindle our love into flames of true and living realities. Teach us that he who is truly strong is also kind, he who is wise tempers justice with mercy, he who is truly brave matches courage with compassion.

Hats, could you please give the number of the page where the word occurs ? Remember, folks, there will be "earthy" terms here, I predict, we are in the countryside after all. And in Italy, there is a heightened sense of sensual awareness; I swear the sky is bluer there than any I have seen.

Barbara, I will look in whenever I can, but time is a critical factor and I have so many obligations.

You have myriad wonderful questions, and the eager responses are gratifying.

As for the question currently under discussion, may I add my 2 cents worth :

a ritual describes something that is set, established, prescribed, coded , i.e. carried out determinedly, 'religiously' ; in fact, the term is associated most with religious practices.

A ritual is something carried out or pursued deliberately, often out of a (quite possibly subconscious) sense of obligation and devotion, and becomes ingrained because NOT to do whatever the ritual consists of would quite simply not be "right".

A habit , on the other hand, meets few (if any) of these crit

I wanted to give a definition of ritual and did not mean to seem punctilious. Sometimes my training as a linguist gets the better of me. I am sorry.

Traude

The well is the feminine principle; the womb of the Great Mother; the well often contains magic waters with powers of healing and wishfulfilling...In Christianity it represents salvation and purification.

Old Hans adds — The city-dweller of the present day can hardly imagine the importance of a well, as a source of potable water, for village communities. The belief in the curative powers of water from the earth goes back to ancient, indeed prehistoric cults. Christianity readily took up such traditions, and pilgrimages were encouraged to the source of miraculous legends...Wells often appear in fairy tales and dreams as places of penetration into the unkown worlds of the unconscious, of what is hidden and, in everday life, inaccessible. Wells are associated with cleansing and drinking from the sources of life, and quenching our thirst for higher knowledge.

Water is the liquid counterpart of light. Water is the primordial flued from which all life comes, but it is also the element in which creatures drown and all matter disolves. Great floods close cycles of creation and dystroy forms of life displeasing to the gods. Water dissolve, abolish, purify, 'wash away' and regenerate; associated with the moisture and circulatory movements of blood and the sap of life as opposed to the dryness and static condition of death. Baptism by water or blood, in initiatory religions, washes away the old life and sanctifies the new. Water wears down even the hardest rock.

I had not gotten very far into the book and wanted to see the context, though I had the right notion - and I had warned about "earthy" terms.

And there you have it at the bottom page 82, top of page 83. "culo" means literally the behind ; and because of that, un colpo di culo is a bit stronger, shall we say, than "a stroke of luck". The reader gets the maning because Jeff has articulated it well.

Traude

So many more questions waiting, let's continue, Avanti ... Traude

If the mind is in the right place, then even something as insignificant as putting on one's shoes can become an act of worship, a ritualized practice to help one appreciate life and see past the everyday world, glimpsing instead a deeper dimension.

...the flowers we stop and smell along the roadside might well be more important than the destination to which the road leads.

"The bell on the first sheep's neck clanked"

"The church bell rang half-past seven just as Renato entered the piazza, his shoes already wet from the torrents that covered the streets. Seven chimes, then a pause, then two more chimes for the half hour."

"... Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."

One of the questions presented was  in regards to the first words written or spoken by a  character.  The first word that Jeff our illustrious author speaks is better yet --DAWN!   A beginning to a new character and the unfolding of his new life, (I assume.)  The last paragraph, as Barb points out,  is just as powerful ,  as Renato "senses the beginning or autumn in the breeze."  The change is upon us at the onset.  The fragile existence of an entire  town, his town , will be altered --- submerged, as the  valley is filled.  Can any of you imagine what a heart break that would indeed be, if it were to occur?  Where would you go, what would you do, how  could you manage?  It is no wonder that Renato went T-I-L-T!!!

It is no exaggeration to say that northerners (and tourists too) might have a bit of difficulty understanding the dialect spoken in, say, Sicily where there are variations (though minor) even in contiguous localities.

Incidentally, there is a feminine version of Renato : = Renata.

In pre-discussion posts the question of climate came up. May I say at this time that summers can get quite hot in Florence. That's why those who can leave the city do so, in droves, in August to go at least up to Fiesole where it is cooler.

Actually, by "Ferragosto" (= August 15) for sure, the Italians are in their cars headed for the beaches of the Adriatic e.g. (now rather polluted).

Re the question of the church : The Catholic Church has been a powerful force (and not only in the religious sense) early on in the known world, through the Middle Ages and onward, when successive popes actively participated in the political cabals of the ages, hired and sent mercenaries into wars and were very much represented when treaties were negotiated.

But we are not here to discuss the history of the papacy, intriguing as it is (especially the dark period known as "The Babylonian Captivity of the Church" from 1309 - 1376, when there were two popes, one in Rome and the other in Avignon.) Let me just mention one last fact : Vatican City, the Holy See, seat of the papal court over which the pope has jurisdiction, is a city within the city of Rome; it was created in 1929 in the so-called Lateran Treaties between the pope and the Italian government.

Basta, basta, enough already. Tomorrow is another day. Saluti a tutti. Greetings to all.

Traude

How beautiful to think of the association with the Song of Songs. Yes, the emphasis away from "his" makes this a vague sublime scene with, as you pointed out its importance, the steam hanging in the air.

Thank you for offering me a new picture in my head of a Father looking in on a domestic scene with love in his heart. The steam, how delicate and yet, how powerful a way to bring out this scene. This morning the mist in my eyes is heavy with the light you have shed on what brought up a mass of confusion for me. Thank you!

Like any first born, la Prima displays the curiosity and courage to peer and scrutinize.  Isn't that typical of a first born?  Inquisitive, extraordinary, striving for perfection ,the first born usually are eager to examine and investigate, aren't they?  (We expect more of them also, I think.)   Renato even includes her in his thoughts re.  his dream.   By the time he'd gotten to Terza, he had the reasoning complete.  Seconda and Terza were creatures of the flock.   BUT--Quarta, like a sibling, who has learned to be last and merely nuisance absorbed into daily activities of the rest, must find a distinguishing characteristic to make her seen and heard.  Jeff chooses to depict her as delicate, weak and  neurotic.  She has an air of debility adn fraility like a last child seeking to be heard.  Poor baby!  Rammed by the ram, she takes on the personna of an agrieved mare as if " death were chasing her like a wolf."   Wolf! As in cram, gobble, gorge and consume, Jeff?  What an apt animal for your choice of words.  I agree with Ginny, we must allot ourselves the time to wallow in these words.   I found it interesting that Renato didn't need the light to help him fill the pails with the milk, as his hands knew where to go and what to do, akin to touching his beautiful wife.

It is not the way of the Wild to like movement. Life is an offence to it, for life is movement; and the Wild aims always to destroy movement. It freezes the water to prevent it running to the sea; it drives the sap out of the trees till they are frozen to their mighty hearts; and most ferociously and terribly of all does the Wild harry and crush into submission man — man who is the most restless of life, ever in revolt against the dictum that all movement must in the end come to the cessation of movement...And then, across the narrow oblong box, (containing a third man whose toil was over) each nodded to the other...A third and answering cry arose, also to the rear and to the left of the second cry. 'They're after us, Bill' said the man at the front."

• Sheep Blind and unintelligent following; helplessness. Christian; the faithful, the Apostles.
• Number Four From four the first solid figure is produced; the static as opposed to the circular and dynamic. wholeness; completion; solidarity; the Earth; order; the rational; justice. The four cardinal points, seasons, sides of the square, arms of the cross, rivers of Paradise, sacred mountains, quarters of the moon... Christian The number of the body, with three as the soul, four winds from which the One Spirit is to come, horsemen of the Apocalypse... Hebrew Intelligence; In Qabalism it is memeory;...

• Symbolism as organic, non-intellectual, pointing to some mystical connection between the mind of the author and the unreal world which is the shaping mind or soul behind actuality, wearing what we call the "real" world as its vestment. Any illustrative image.
• Allegory overtly intellectual, illustrative imagery is characteristic of this form, didactic, reflecting the real world in a mechanical an superficial way, quietly emphasizes the illustrative meaning of its characters, setting and action. This form requires fairly consistent symbolism. Allegory as a mode of thought and story-telling is suited to instruct as much as delight through symbolic imagery.
• Satire rather then the dictionary definition that speaks to human vice or folly attacked through irony, derision, or wit, Robert Scholes and Robert Kellogg suggest that satire is capable of using "mock" fictional forms to make quiet general intellectual statements. Satire depends on the notions of the proper, the ideal world is good and the real world is bad. Hense, satire naturally flurishes when the world is in transition from an ideally oriented moral scheme to a non-moral scheme. (I would prefer to say any new moral scheme goes through a time of transition where the old schemes are often mocked)
  
  The valididty of satire depends on its ability to convince the reader that the social and moral types of the real world are being represented more truly as caricatures than they had been in ideal thought, to which the satire offers itself for comparison. This representation of the real world strikes out against falling away from conforming to an ideal that has little relevance to the real world.
  
  The characters loose their status as generalized types and take on the problematic qualities we associate with the novel. We become emotionally concerned for the well-being of the character.

Robert Scholes and Robert Kellogg say, Character the soul of man where virtue and vice are found are revealed through light and casual actions. Characters are the primary vehicles for meaning in narrative. Objects become characters. Without characters there is no action. We ask questions based on our knowledge of the way real people are motivated. While reading we desire beauty and truth. The esthetic appeals to beauty - heros in ideal settings, landscapes and the sense of ugly is with villains, monsters and dugeons.

There evidently are a few of us renewed in esthetics, beauty and truth. Where as, the market place leans toward action, imagined reality, moral or not. And yes, I have to agree, Jeff wrote a book to savor. I see so many spiritual connections just under the surface.

Also, having typed out the early chapters was a lesson for me, as a budding artist paints the work of a master by copying a museum piece. I learned that Jeff often uses short sentences. I like the affect. It gives punch or emphases to the thought. Amazing what I observed while typing that I missed by reading the book. Now, I can really see the value in reading out loud.

That to me says volumes about the love of your home that more than likely hold many special memories as well as, items dear to your heart. Having been partial flooded, (while I was out-of-town, my roof was being replaced. Still in the tar paper stage, a 14 inch deluge falling within hours hit Austin) I still get upset over some of the loses. But then I think on the memory of enjoying the item lost and push past the loss.

I wonder - is that saying that for many of us our world is our home? I'm also reminded how little by little, day after day our cities and towns are changing. I used to say I had to take some of the old streets we used to get downtown just to remember where I live. Along with growth many of the traditions and colloquialisms of the area have changed. This flood of water Renato fears is a flood of people that have changed this town along with a flood of inventions that have changed all our lives.

Do we all have to move to Tuscany in order to slow down? Sant'Angelo D'Asso reminds me of the close knit town of Ballykissangle (spell) the location and name for the delightful story from Ireland featured on PBS.

This is the part that confuses me. Small town America is usually quite conservative which often leaves little room for the equality of woman. Where there is economic security, often brought about in change, is where there appears to be a more inclusive acceptance of all, regardless of "...

Interesting - I just read an explanation for the David and Golieth story along those lines. David is given God, the 10 loaves of bread, he picks up what is naturally around him, the 5 pebbles, he rejects the suit of armore, man made, with trust in the fact he took out the bear and the lion while protecting his sheep, unafraid he knocks Golieth in the middle of his forehead the seat of the intellect. David carries the head to the tent, a protective enclosure.

I'm thinking that questioning may be really testing trust. Quarta doesn't trust where as Primo trusts and jumps over the difficult. Renato's trust is shaken since the "tastes" of life he has become attached are at risk.

Yes, I have to agree WOW!!! Observe moments, "gestures in life" and observing ourselves acting, or not, in life. Real Taoist thinking.

I also see a ghost as someone caught between two worlds. A spirit wanting a body, a spirit adrift, without a home therefore, remaining in the home it knew when it inhabited a body. Could that refer to someone caught in and comfortable in their past, not yet ready to go on to the future?

Have both open...and then minimize notepad (click on the little _ box at the upper right) and bring it up when you want to add something to your notepad.

Have both open...and go to the lower right corner..where there are some vertical lines...and put your mouse arrow there. When the arrow turns to a double headed arrow, click and push the window toward the NW (ie, the top/north...on a diagonal...to make that screen long and narrow. If you wish, you can do the same thing with the SeniorNet window...and then click on the very top bar...of the SN screen...hold down the mouse button and pull that long narrow screen to the right...and have the two sit side by side on your monitor screen. You can then just click back and forth between them...reading and going to next post on SN window..and then clicking on notepad window to add your comment.

Have both open and use ALF's method of using ALT and TAB to toggle between the two.

Have both opened, resize both a bit and click your mouse arrow on one or other to make that screen the active one.

When you're all finished with notepad notes, highlight it all, copy and paste it into the message window here. Ta da!

I hope this helps.

Now...back to beautiful Tuscany!!

š ...jane›

From Jeff's post:

...the flowers we stop and smell along the roadside might well be more important than the destination to which the road leads.

...what the little things are that give life its taste.

Robinson Crusoe is not real but an attempt to present him with the most important attribute is that he pass for real...We ask questions based in our knowledge of the way real people were motivated.

for-tunen.1A hypothetical, often personified force or power that favorably or unfavorably governs the events of one's life...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY
JEFF

If the soul in this life is to attain a union with God, and commune directly with Him, it must unite itself with darkness whereof Solomon spake, wherein God had promised to dwell, and must draw near to the darkness of the air wherein God was pleased to reveal His secrets to Job, and must take in its hands, in darkness, the jars of Gedeon, that it may have in its hands (that is, in the works of its will) the light, which is the union of love, though it be in the darkness of faith, so that, when the pitchers of the life are broken, which alone have kept from it the light of faith, it may see God face to face in glory.

Now it pleases me to withdraw my hand: be thankful, as though you had lived upon my loans. You have no just cause of complaint, as though you had really lost what was once your own.

I know how Fortune is ever most friendly and alluring to those whom she strives to deceive, until she overwhelms them with grief beyond bearing, by deserting them when least expected. If you recall her nature, her ways, or her deserts, you will see that you never had in her, nor have lost with her, aught that was lovely...

...But no sudden change of outward affairs can ever come without some upheaval in the mind. Thus has it followed that you, like others, have fallen somewhat away from your calm peace of mind.

When nature brought you forth from your mother`s womb, I received you in my arms naked and bare of all things; I cherished you with my gifts, and I brought you up all too kindly with my favouring care, wherefore now you cannot bear with me, and I surrounded you with glory and all the abundance that was mine to give.

Why do you rail against me? I have wrought no violence towards you. Wealth, honours, and all such are within my rights. They are my handmaids; they know their mistress; they come with me and go when I depart. Boldly will I say that if these, of whose loss you complain, were ever yours, you would never have lost them at all. Am I alone to be stayed from using my rightful power?...

...the ancient allegory that in the threshold of Jove`s hall there stand two vessels, one full of evil, and one of good? What if you have received more richly of the good? ... What if my changing nature is itself a reason that you should hope for better things? In any way, let not your spirit eat itself away: you are set in the sphere that is common to all, let your desire therefore be to live with your own lot of life, a subject of the kingdom of the world...

...while Fate is that ordering which is a part of all changeable things, and by means of which Providence binds all things together... when they are assigned to their own places, forms, and times, Fate sets them in an orderly motion; so that this development of the temporal order, unified in the intelligence of the mind of God, is Providence...

...That course of Fate moves the heavens and the stars,...The course of Fate renews all things that are born and wither away by advances of offspring and seed. It constrains, too, the actions and fortunes of men by an unbreakable chain of causes, as they proceed from an unchanging Providence...This order restrained by its own unchanging, might otherwise run hither and thither at random.

...But you will ask, " What more unjust confusion could exist than that good men should sometimes enjoy prosperity, sometimes suffer adversity, and that the bad too should sometimes receive what they desire, sometimes what they hate? " Are then men possessed of such infallible minds that they, whom they consider honest or dishonest, must necessarily be what they are held to be?...But let us grant that a man could discern between good and bad characters. Can he therefore know the inmost feelings of the soul, as a doctor can learn a body`s temperature?

... just as there is no league between good and bad men, so also the bad cannot agree among themselves: nay, with their vices tearing their own consciences asunder, they cannot agree with themselves, and do often perform acts which, when done, they perceive that they should not have done. Providence has thus often shewn her strange wonder, that bad men should make other bad men good. For some find themselves suffering injustice at the hands of evil men, and, burning with hatred of those who have injured them, they have returned to cultivate the fruits of virtue, because their aim is to be unlike those whom they hate.

`For this reason a wise man should never complain, whenever he is brought into strife with fortune; just as a brave man cannot properly be disgusted whenever the noise of battle is heard, since for both of them their very difficulty is their opportunity, for the brave man of increasing his glory, for the wise man of confirming and strengthening his wisdom...Keep the middle path of strength and virtue, lest you be overwhelmed by misfortune or corrupted by pleasant fortune.

...there is nothing set in time which can at one moment grasp the whole space of its lifetime. It cannot yet comprehend to-morrow; yesterday it has already lost. And in this life of to-day your life is no more than a changing, passing moment. And as Aristotle said of the universe, so it is of all that is subject to time;...

"Life is eternal; and love is immortal; and death is only a horizon; and a horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight."

"...whenever he is brought into strife with fortune; just as a brave man cannot properly be disgusted whenever the noise of battle is heard, since for both of them their very difficulty is their opportunity, for the brave man of increasing his glory, for the wise man of confirming and strengthening his wisdom..."

You see, I listened to every word you said, and that's what you said, you said, "That's what's killing me," not so much that the ephemeral is beautiful but that beatuy is ephemeral. It's killing you, you say, and I care about you too much for that. I don't want anything to kil you. An answer? Maybe no, but there must be an answer to that idea somwhere. You're sad beccause that thought makes you sad.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity.

But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition.

In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of the Negro. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California!

But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

I have a Dream by Martin Luther King, Jr.

Delivered on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C. on August 28, 1963

Deems

March 5, 2001 - 02:12 pm

Barbara---Thanks for posting the speech. I get chills every time I reread it. I saw it live on TV. What a day that was.

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 5, 2001 - 02:20 pm

Maryal oh how at the time, I do not remember realizing, the greatness of this speach - regardless of the sentiment the cadence and beauty of construction that lead the people to be inclusive and up about the business of being more than they are. The sentiment combined with the structure reminds me of the litany prayers we answered back and forth in church when I was a child. Truely a magnificant speach and the loss of the man tears so.

Nellie Vrolyk

March 5, 2001 - 04:52 pm

Dreams. I tend to dream stories that can go on for weeks on end with each night adding a new 'chapter' to the dream story. I think because I like to read science fiction and to watch it on TV, that most of my dream stories tend to have extraterrestials/aliens in them; and they are never the sweet childlike ETs from Close Encounters of the Third Kind nor the humanoid aliens from Star trek.

I have had three prophetic dreams: in one I visited a house and many years later ended up visiting the same house; in another I saw that a co-worker, who had just announced to us in real life that she was pregnant, had a girl -and that is just what she had; and when my sister was pregnant with her second child, I dreamed that it was a girl and again the dream came true.

I can't say that there is anything in my dreams that tell me to do specific things or that I let them guide me in some way. I do see my dreams as being the way that my mind relaxes and plays.

betty gregory

March 6, 2001 - 10:25 pm

That's only the 2nd time I've read King's speech...seen it on tape many times, but reading it is a different kind of wonder, don't you think? Thanks, Barbara, not only for posting it, but for reminding us of the other kind of dream.

I guess I feel similarly about both kinds of dreams...neither should be constrained or shaped or in any way reduced by what others think.

My son was here when I began silently reading King's words. I asked if he wanted to hear it. I read it aloud to both of us. Then we talked a long while about racial issues and the power of words and the miracle of Martin Luther King, Jr. Thanks for inspiring that, Barbara.

Betty

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 7, 2001 - 01:51 pm

Frustration - frustration - last night in the process of changing the heading my computer crashed again as it did last week when I attempted to change the focus questions in the heading. This time it in not coming back regardless how many times I shut it off and reboot.

Just now I am posting this from our office and our phone lines are due to go down for the remainder of the day and night as we are getting a new phone system. And so... there will be some time before I can get the new focus questions up - the part the disappoints me is I had it all on my computer notepad and all is inaccessable now. I do have the quotes if I can remember the questions we should have them tomorrow. If I can get anything done now I will.

Thank goodness y'alls e-mail addresses are here on seniornet because I have no access to anything just now. I sure hope it does not mean my whole hard drive needs to be cleaned and started from scratch.

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 7, 2001 - 02:29 pm

Ginny shared that our Charlie, who posted last night on the open boards, is on sabbatical. He's about to embark on quite a trip...Thailand, Bali, etc., and we hope to see him when he returns after his jet lag and all.

As well our Joan P will be off for a bit.

Hats

March 7, 2001 - 02:47 pm

Poor Barbara, I hope everything works out with your computer. How frustrating!!

I would love to trade places with Charlie. What a trip!

HATS

Nellie Vrolyk

March 7, 2001 - 04:07 pm

Some smells that I like: the slightly bitter aroma of coffee perking; the odor of bacon frying; the lovely odor of onions being sauteed in the pan; the smell of bread baking in the oven; the scent of lilacs; the heady odor of roses; the rich aroma of my peonies when they bloom that pervades the whole of the backyard; and the way everything smells after a rainfall.

I am fascinated by the way this book makes me think of the simple things in life.

Barbara, I hope you get things fixed and have no more problems.

Hats

March 7, 2001 - 04:58 pm

Barbara, I love the first question. I have not thought of an answer. After a good night's rest, I will probably come up with an answer.

Nellie, the smells that you mentioned, bacon, coffee brewing, hot bread baking makes me feel undescribably hungry.

HATS

YiLi Lin

March 7, 2001 - 07:04 pm

Barbara it might not be your computer, i have been having a tough time getting and staying on line for several days now.-

I have not yet thought about what statement i would like next to my name on the list, but three jump out at me: sCULATIE The past is always present. It's just hidden most of the time. MEG BARKERChoosing is always good. TRIESTESooner or later the fabric of every life gets torn. That's when life begins You are another I, of course, is the epicenter of my personal belief system so I rather matter of factly said- oh of course- on that one- but I am truly intrigued by the reminder that the past is always present- and have benefited from that awareness in the past few days. Thinking that way sure takes the edge off some millisecond present moments! Choosing is always good though it comes with great responsibility, sometimes that people do not want to accept so they do not choose and opt for a life wherin "the devil made me do it" and aside from the sentiment I am especially grateful for the metaphor- the fabric of life- torn giving me pause on the fabric of life, my life, my life with others, me as an other.....

I do not have the book handy, can someone help me recall the context of Meg's statement- I can't quite match her to the sentiment.

Jeff Shapiro

March 8, 2001 - 05:33 am

Barbara, what great questions!

I wanted to point out a small yet intriguing word change that you penned when retyping Renato's list. The sentence next to Meg Barker's name is simply: "Choosing is good." Your addition of the word "always" opens up a fascinating new dimension!

YiLi Lin, you asked how this line emerges from the text. Meg never actually says the line. Instead, this is Renato's thought after his encounter with her (coming at the end of the chapter called "Wife"). The thought did not come from, yet was prompted by contact with, Meg.

Thank you, everyone, for your interesting views on dreams. I'm looking forward to posting again, but I have to run now. A quick ciao.

CIAO! Love, Jeff

Hats

March 8, 2001 - 08:01 am

My Favorite Things.

I love the purr of a kitten. When we go to the beach, It thrills me to see the sea gulls flying in the sky. I enjoy the smell of a Christmas tree.

HATS

Hats

March 8, 2001 - 08:39 am

The moment I met and heard Sculati in the book I knew he would be my favorite character. I know, he lives in a cemetery, and he is a grave digger. I just feel that there is so much to his character. I thought through him I might be able to learn major lessons about death and dying.

Renato describes him. "behind the big,watery eyes, behind the fat-lipped mouth there seemed to hide the laughter of life." Death has always been difflcult for me. So, when I meet a man in a book who literally lives among the dead and can still laugh, I felt he must have some deep inner wisdom to offer.

Surely, people who work in cemeteries must be a part of those unsung heroes. They care for our loved ones even after we have forgotten them.

Sculati carefully observes the mothers who come to the graves to visit their children who have died.

"They visit their children every day, polishing the gravestones, cleaning up as if they were tidying their children's rooms..." Sculati goes on to say "There's some meaning in there..."

I might have her name wrong, but I think it was Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Some years ago she wrote about death and dying. I thought of her when I read about Sculati.

My favorite passage is "The past is always present. It's just hidden most of the time." These words were spoken by Sculati and written by Renato.

HATS

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 9, 2001 - 03:34 pm

Called Apple and have some of my computer back...breathe for me...all my files and contacts and calander...of course I didn't have back ups - still do not have the internet back up and the office is still without phone service (3 DAYS) as we are switching to a new phone system.

Fun and games as I have become a begger trying to find someone that has the internet that I can quick post a note. Here I am with just a quicky at a mortgage loan company and I cannot stay on. I love the posts and will answer y'all when I am back on line again.

Jeff please forgive but 'always' seemed to say so much - I just put it in small quotes -

For me this book came together when Renato became aware of his own power and realized the Pope was just an old man that leaned on him as he stumbled. The Pope was a teacher and intellectual but not the ultimate power to be all and end all. When Renato looked at himself in the puddle to me it was like he looked in a mirror and realized he is his luck. I loved that whole bit. That allowed my soul to soar when I read the book the first time.

Lots of favorite things, smells, touches etc. For me the most meaningful sense is my sight. I could never work in an office 8 to 5 - Regardless of weather, at least I can see the seasons, the clouds, the weather coming, the coming and going of birds, trees changing, the lake sparkling in the sun or deep blue and rough after a downpour up-stream. The hills of Central Texas in a violet mist at evening time and, The State Capitol Dome standing proud and tall as I drive up Congress Ave. Cattle, sometimes staying cool under the live oaks dotting the landscape or goats frisky in the fields and the very soon to be, blanket of Bluebonnets that will be thick in every field, roadside and highway mediun till the very air seems blue.

Oh yes, must add going to the coast in summer when it is over 100 degrees. The waves crash with gulls swooping over the bleached sand dunes, the hot still flats with eddies of water against the very blue sky and those huge thunderheads above. Often there is a shrimp troller heading out to sea for some night fishing.

The wonderful costumes on the mexican dancers and mariachie players. A string of red peppers against a purple wall, an old stone and brick wall partly smeared with some adobe, the first red tomato of the season, the eyes of little ones during the Christmas season, a little boy rolling and laughing with his dog, Dad's playing softball on a hot summer night, a bushel of newly picked green beans, the straw yellow of a glass of bordeaux, seeing the way a fiddle player bends into his instrument. The soft colors in My quilt, that covers me when I sit reading in winter and covers the ground when I listen to the symphony outdoors in summer, the black and white pattern with bits of red in a Norweigan sweater and jeans.

The prettiest sight to me is when I am on the road out of town, especially west of Austin and there is the great expanses. Fields of various colored grasses, from almost white to a redish brown, like a painting, similar grasses in sweeping broad shapes with rock outcroppings between and the big sky wrapped around me. I always feel like singing when I am driving along on our empty roads west of town with the red mesas and blue violet hills in the distance.

More another time I must get off here NOW! Just sneaked in a bit more - oh do I miss my nightly fix on seniornet.

Deems

March 9, 2001 - 07:24 pm

HI, Barbara---I miss you and look forward to your return.

MarjorieElaine

March 9, 2001 - 10:26 pm

My daughter just borrowed my book and has finished it. She also enjoyed the book as much as I did. Her favorite chapter was Cappelli the Mystic and what Renato put on the list next to Cappelli's name:"You are another I." So of course I went back and read that chapter again--and it is great. Since I do not speak Italian, the difference between Lei and tu is something I would never think about. But this is about how the choice of words can make someone feel like a "real person." Cappelli could count on one hand the number of people who called him You. He said "Truth is, people get so used to calling you IT that in the end they forget there's a YOU inside." It's a lesson in Italian grammar. Renato realized that he would have just dismissed her as a whore, but she had provided Cappelli with such joy even if only briefly.

I just want to thank Jeff again for being so available to us. I am glad he shared with us how the title came to refer to luck, because it never did feel that luck was the theme of the book. I expect we will be reading many excellent writings from Jeff in the future. Marge

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 10, 2001 - 12:19 pm

I'm back on but without really knowing what the cause of the bomb I feel like I am posting in a mine field - need further work and understanding of this magical mashine - The contract with Apple allows only one problem to be solved after which you must agree to another contract, with the appropriate fee, in order to solve another problem. Of course my questions go forth like a trip hammer and just could not understand as the gentleman on the other end laughed and had to sort it out so that only one of my many questions could be addressed.

I knew this but it always catches me up short when the way I think is brought to the surface. My head functions like the pump on the water works with all pipes being filled with flowing thoughts and questions. And no pipeline or channel of thought seems to take precedence over the other which often developes unusual combinations or links.

It is always so much fun to spend time on thinking of our favorite things. I remember as a child when we had those bound ruled notebooks with the multiplication table writton on the inside cover along with other usefull information, we used to fold in half several pages - on the back side of one page we had all these questions about your favorite this and that in a column - then for each fellow student we placed the folded page against the column and filled in their favorite color, animal, book, teacher, game, etc.

As I remember every time the frenzy would die down, of having everyone's favorites, another tide of questions would start the activity again. This went on for several years from about 6th grade till 8th. In Spring of the 8th grade we then had our 'Graduating Album' for everyone to write in their pithy saying with their signature.

Of course Lerner and Lowe made fame as Julie Andrews sang of her favorite things -

Nellie your love of the scent from Lilacs reminds me of Santa Fa. I never before saw so many lilac bushes as there are in Santa Fa New Mexico. Every color, every garden and even growing wild - amazing.

And the coffee, yes - isn't it wonderful stepping into the real coffee shops - not Starbucks but the shops that sell coffee. Here we have a local compnay, Anderson Coffee, with a steady stream of customers purchasing their coffee from all parts of the world. The most delicious to me was stepping thru the front door of Fortnam Mason's and being assaulted by the rich smells of coffee and chocolate and tea. I know it is gauche but I still like my flavored coffee. My current favorite is Godiva's Créme Brûlée. Godiva had a rasberry that was to die for but they discontinued the flavor.

Hats of course a Christmas tree - such a clean scent, filled with so many memories. Do you still put up a tree now that your children have their family? Hee hee I guess I am asking if you are still picking your grapes as Signora Vezzosi desided.

Yili Lin yes, I also was taken with Sculatie's statement, The past is always present. It's just hidden most of the time. As you shared, the others are familar thoughts but this was a new thought. I liked the chapters about moving the bones. A new look at death that made it all much more approachable. I've had a problem with cremation since there is no place or mark where the living can physically make contact with the memory. To me it is like the person just disappears and I can't anchor the memory. And yet if we keep adding to cemetaries they could, in time, take over the land. I really like the concept presented.

But there was something more and when the men in the barber spoke of being more comfortable, They're world returning after the Banker was snide and rude in his remarks and even Renato holding on to his past opinions of Daniele, Petula having the house key and his trained approach to a whore all said to me "The past is always present," for good or bad.

At that point my own thoughts traveled to a place where I wonder if contrasting good and bad is really what we are all about. I'm seeing that battle within and without may never be won and only makes us fearful of bad. Then of course with that fear come the labels like whore.

Your comment on "You" and "I" only adds to my quandary. Could the "You" and "I" easily be taken as the opposites in all things? Do we distance ourselves unecessarily from those we have labeled bad? Are we really afraid of ourselves because within we are both good and bad? That trying to distance ourselves from the bad we make all kinds of resolutions and promises rather than loving and accepting the part of ourselves and the part of society that brings pain. I'm chewing on this one. It seems a tall order in the face of some "bad" and yet, me thinks we portray those we label bad as such monsters we cannot identify them as "I."

MarjorieElaine what was your daughter's impressions after reading the book?

And Hats you also were taken with Sculatie. How poignent the bit about the mothers of children coming together almost like a club meeting each morning. I wonder if that says we are more anguished over potential lost than, the memory of a life lived that served?

Ginny

March 10, 2001 - 01:35 pm

Jeepers, you Guys appear to be WAY ahead of me, I sat down to read and enjoyed myself so much I didn't want to stop, but I stopped at the decision, the three choices (the story is like Odysseus and his journey, isn't it, every turn brings up more interesting sub plots) and the problem with his parents's remains.

I don't know what happened but when I stopped his decision was to go ahead and move them.

To me once again, Renato has taken on himself the burden of helping others and doing the right thing, in this case, the painful thing, moving his parent's remains, because the boy couldn't afford to put them in the mausoleum?

I was curious about the vault stuff and Sculati mentioning the "sealed zinc container...Much faster when there's no zinc," on page 191. I had just read somewhere that contrary to popular opinion, the watertight metal vault actually not only does not repel anything but most often...without going into detail here, causes more rapid decomposition than any other choice, save cremation, of burial?

Actually cemeteries are something I know a little about. And the moving of bodies as well, quite an undertaking here in the states, and I will be interested to see how it occurs there.

So many things here: the Dead Mothers Club, strangely affecting, is this true, Jeff or did you get an idea and build on it? Strangely true. Here in rural SC we have a country cemetery in which strange things appear on various graves, a pack of cigarettes, a birthday cake, a diet coke, left by the bereaved, but not in the case of a child's grave. Interesting how what might seem a bit strange is actually being repeated half way around the world.

But here's a question one has to ask. Italy does not seem to me to be short of countryside space? Why could the cemetery not expand? Why, in the face of the coming flood, could they simply not open another one which would eventually be flooded? What's the shortage of land about?

On the other side of the coin, just a couple of weeks ago a stone mason stood with me in the historic old cemetery where my mother is buried and explained how, just like in the story, space is now a premium here in some cities and cemeteries of the US, and some of the old historic old churchyards, as well, and when cremains are involved,they will often use one large stone (called a ledger) and inscribe both or more names on it. Interesting, no?

---

Barbara, we surely understand computer problems, and are glad to see you back, your questions in the heading are fabulous: to wit:

In what way did these requests serve as the moral commentator that established the ethical and social framework or the themes of the book?

What request would you have asked Renato to include on his list?

Those are two very good questions.

I would say that as long as Renato went on his pilgrimage for his own welfare, his cause remained quaint and interesting but when he, in his compassion, turned his attention away from his own needs and desires, and added the concerns of the others which he wished to include, (I need to recheck and see if the real Renato did that).... he changed in his vision and in so doing changed the entire focus of the book: by including them, he not only ended his self imposed isolation from the town, he allowed himself bear their own burdens, to be the goat carrying on his back not their sins out of the city, but their hopes. A sort of reverse goat of the Old Testament.

There are a lot of swirling images here, and I'm not far along enough to recognize a theme yet, I need to go back and read what you all said about that.

---

Jeff: Yes that was a marvelous answer, thank you so much. You also said, "If I had to chose between a good question and a good answer, I'd go for the good question every time. Questions seem closer to the truth. What do you think?"

I think it's easier to ask a question than to think up an answer! hhhahaha, It seems to me that the burden is on the person who hears the question to do the thinking? I always have questions, but very rarely any answers.

Do you mean that the truth is closer to the person who asks a question than the person who thinks a long time and formulates a response? What a provocative mind you have!

---

In answer to the question above of what would you want Renato to carry for you..... THAT is a good one.

Ok I had to change this from a question to a statement even now! hahahah If the purpose of the statements Renato carries is to change the luck (for the better) of the person struggling with an issue...then what would we all ask?

Boy, that's a good one!

I don't know!!

PS: What is the MATTER with Milena's mother? WHY is she SOOO bitter and angry?

ginny

Nellie Vrolyk

March 10, 2001 - 02:45 pm

I have enjoyed reading through all those good and thoughtful posts. I'm thinking now about what I would have asked Renato to write on his list beside my name: I think I would ask him to write "To be content always." I'm not sure I could tell you why though.

My favourite passage is the evening stroll that Renato takes with Milena. I had the sense of being right there with them, like I was walking along beside them. When he insisted that they walk just a bit farther and they go as far as the river and discover the fig tree and the cave in which Renato finds that little brass 'boat'; then I knew right away that the 'boat' was going to mean something special in the story.

As usual just a few thoughts.

Hats

March 11, 2001 - 03:30 am

Ginny, I wondered about Milena too. She does seem very bitter. I think her life "is" the bottega. She cares about business, and that's all. She has no time for relationships.

Remember "Little House on the Prarie?" She reminds me of the woman that owned the general store. I can not remember her name. Her daughter went to school with Laura, and she was as mean as her mother.

Ginny, your thought is so deep. "he allowed himself to bear their own burdens, to be the goat carrying on his own back not their sins out of the city, but their hopes. A sort of reverse goat of the Old Testament." Ooooooooooooh, I like that one.

Barbara, We still put up a Christmas tree, and I buy every ornament I can find. We buy a "real" tree. My son bought a huge artificial tree last year, but my grandson liked grandma's tree the best.

HATS

Jeff Shapiro

March 11, 2001 - 10:25 am

Ciao!

As always, your postings have sparked off a whole series of thoughts.

I see that Barbara is wrestling with questions of good and bad. (One answer, of course, is remarkably simple: Good is when your computer works; bad is when it doesn't!) Ginny, too, is dealing with questions about questions. I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm eager to hear Barbara's comments on one particular passage that comes towards the end of the book. Now I'm curious to hear Ginny's views as well. The passage I have in mind touches upon the issue of questions and answers -- a notion that I consider essential. Looking forward to talking about that soon, without getting ahead of ourselves for now.

Ginny commented on cemeteries and land-use. I thought I'd share with you something that was explained to me. (I hope it's true.) I've been told that Italian cemeteries used to be similar to what we in America would recognize as cemeteries. Then along came Napoleon. Napoleonic law mandated that cemeteries had to be built within walls, and the practice of placing bodies in wall-vaults became the norm. The custom has remained, greatly outliving the presence of French laws in Italian territory. Many Italians today find in-ground burial to be distasteful. Wall-vaults appear "cleaner" to people of this opinion. (My own view would be the opposite. I find the idea of melting back into the natural earth far easier to accept than the thought of being stuck forever in a cubbyhole, high off the ground.)

Anyway, I thought I'd brighten your days with this cheery bit of information.

Looking forward to our on-going correspondence. Love, Jeff

betty gregory

March 11, 2001 - 01:10 pm

I had not meant to do a favorite-things list, but after reading several of yours, the mental listing has gone on and on. Also, it is raining right this minute and rain, above anything else, calms me. The sound of it, what it does to the air, the smell, all wonderful. The cabin on the Oregon coast had the best rain sound. No attic to muffle the sound, instead, an exposed ceiling/roof, so I heard every drop. Chili weather, the sound of rain...best reading.

Plain, cream-colored stationery; old fashioned fountain pens; opening and reading the first few pages of an anticipated book; clean, wet hair; the first glimpse of a mountain range in the distance and watching it gradually grow larger; Rocky Mountain National Park, northwest of Denver.

Letting the smell of trees into my house (even in winter...turn up the heater, open the window); the comfortable, disorganized look of trees...left to themselves, they just pick a spot and grow; fuzzy green branches of spring; unlimited shades of green out my window; thinking of the certainty of change as I watch my trees.

The funny positions of a sleeping cat, the surprise of a cat's hug; teaching a new cat to roll over and renewing my acquaintance with the virtue of patience.

Listening to French and Italian arias; listening to 70s rock music; listening to broadway musicals, 40s through 90s; turning off "background" television and unplugging phone, paying attention to the quiet.

Doing the unexpected for my mother, deliberately thinking of her age and how little time we might have; letting myself enjoy my father's company; slowing down inside the private conversations with my son, thinking silently, this is everything.

Once a month, a pound of expensive coffee beans; the smell of coffee beans being ground; the first sip of coffee with plain cream; making a new pot of coffee at 3AM.

Living alone; making a pot of coffee at 3AM; the luxury of picking when to have sound, when to have silence; every mess is my own; every quirk is allowed; the cups do not touch each other in the dishwasher and each plastic bottle that holds soap or shampoo or bath gel stays squeaky clean on the outside!! And the books are NOT alphabetized, but grouped by subject or genre!!

Living alone and having a physical disability, I often need assistance that I don't have, but also with a disability, this private space is needed more than ever, to hurt, to heal, to rail at the gods, to meditate, to write letters at 2AM, to listen to opera at 4AM, to add apples to the tuna.

The perfection of roses, especially the old-fashioned roses that are not perfectly shaped. The deep colors of flowers in Portland, Oregon ("rose capitol"). The heightened smell of Texas-warmed flowers. Just at dusk, the first time it's possible to venture outside on a Texas May or June evening, the smell of flowers that have been simmering all day is an incredible smell. That smell is my childhood, is my grandmother's front walk and is my mother's rose bushes.

Talking with friends....comfortable and soothing to talk with old friends, exciting to talk with new friends. This favorite is right up there with rain and mountains.

------------------------------------------

Footnote....Sam-Sam cat is curled up, asleep, with one of his back feet held over his eyes with assistance from his two front paws which are crossed over each other, then over his back foot (which is over his eyes).

betty

Hats

March 12, 2001 - 06:23 am

Betty, "Sam-Sam is curled up, asleep, with one of his back feet held over his eyes with assistance from his two front paws which are crossed over each other, then over his back foot (which is over his eyes).

Betty, I can see Sam-Sam so clearly. I love cats. Would you like to give Sam-Sam away? Just joking.

HATS

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 12, 2001 - 10:57 am

As Hats said, "Ooooooooooooh, I like that one," expressing admiration for your thoughts Ginny. So perfect - there is something Christ like about Renato and taking it to the lessons of the Bible before Christ you anchored the concept further.

- he changed in his vision and in so doing changed the entire focus of the book: by including them, he not only ended his self imposed isolation from the town, he allowed himself bear their own burdens, to be the goat carrying on his back not their sins out of the city, but their hopes.

I thought it was interesting that you saw Renato as isolated with his dream then, engaged in community as he created his inclusive quest.

The same scenario and for me it was the enthusiasm he and Signora Vezzosi together shared when he first created his list that caught my attention. That and the energy of going into action. Acting on his dream. Up until then, he thought and spoke of going to Rome but hadn't taken the first step to making his interpretation of the dream a reality.

Nellie, I'm in awe that you could come up with, "To be content always."

You have pushed me to try and put my thoughts into a few words as befitting the list - I wish Renato were here to help me but here goes - Respect is not a barganing tool.

Oh yes, the evening stroll Renato takes with Milena.- it was described with such a flow of sights and sounds. You could almost feel the evening slowing the day, couldn't you.

Jeff I haven't looked hard yet for the passage you have in mind. Thanks for the tip that it touches upon the issue of questions and answers -- a notion that I consider essential.

I forgot that Napoleonic law influences more than France. In the states Napoleonic Law is the Law of Louisiana. I wonder if it is really the Law and not the often quoted fact that New Orleans is on bayou land that requires mausoleums to be used in their cemetaries.

And yes my mind has been dwelling on understanding "Bad." So much of what we call bad seems to be centered in what is socially acceptable. And then the one I qestion, is bad because of intent or happen chance. The old saw, if someone is aiming to shoot another and hits a bird versus the person that aims at the bird and hits the person, and is then sent to prison.

I guess I am questioning justice as it relates to bad. I still wonder about the building of the dam in the story. Are the civil authorities bad? Is our desire for the natural and preserving a way of life then bad if it is conflict with progress? Do we label a personal or community bad versus, crimes against humanity with equality? In other words, is someone that has starved and tortured one equally as bad as one responsible for the starvation and torture of many? Maybe there are degrees of bad. Than are there degees of good. Is our value in our degree of good or bad? I have to question who is the bad when I see so many in the justice system. Is it really one big merry-go-round of injustice? Maybe it is all about power - the power accumulated to rule, force, make change that dissrupts and creates havoc.

And then I keep wondering if rooting out bad habits, in the glorious name of change, is really creating an inner war. That we would be better coming to terms and accept ourselves warts and all. Than if we accept ourselves warts and all, can we accept society warts and all. Is accepting bad really a true acceptance of the "You are another I" of Cappelli?

I know in time I will come to peace with all this. Knowing me I will not accept an answer till it makes sense to me. I'm not even sure I have the question down yet so that I can clearly wrap my head around it and calm my own inner scirocco.

Hahaha in light of all this Betty your words are perfect - "to hurt, to heal, to rail at the gods, to meditate, to write letters at 2AM, to listen to opera at 4AM, to add apples to the tuna." Betty you must try pears in the tuna as well - just lovely. Another that I tried that is wonderful is rasberries in a salad rather than tomatos accompanied with rasberry dressing. I usually sprinkle on a little Feta or Chevra with that and add some pecans - slarping good Betty.

You sure listened to a lot of rain this year didn't you. My oh my what a winter. Haven't seen any bluebonnets on Mopac yet. I would think after all this rain they would be thick. I wonder if they didn't re-seed after the draught.

Both you and Hats love your cats. Hats what is your cats name - or do you have a cat as Renato has with no name?

The scene I can see so well is, - the early morning before the sun brims over the horizon - the well, with one of those iron arches and a bucket attached in the, probably brick paved or maybe cobble stone, courtyard. The quiet but yet with a stir that early morning brings. The cat gently meowing and the sound of small hoves on the cobble stone or brick. A magical hour!

Hats

March 12, 2001 - 01:29 pm

Hi Barbara,

I do not have a cat now. My last cat, and the one I still love is named Velvet. I think she was kidnapped because she had such a wonderful personality. The whole family has a different opinion. My husband says that cats go away to die.

I still miss her and have not been able to choose another one. I will soon.

Joyce Carol Oates was the guest on Oprah's Book Club last week. She talked about her cat, Muffin. For love and respect, she repeated Muffin's name a few times as a memorial.

In the book, "We were the Mulvanney's" the cat is named Muffin.

HATS

betty gregory

March 12, 2001 - 05:38 pm

Barbara, you speak poetry. Here's your poem, in sentence form, just as you wrote it...

"Both you and Hats love your cats. Hats, what is your cat's name? Or do you have a cat as Renato has with no name?"

both you and hats love your cats.

hats, what is your cat's

name?

or do you have a cat

as Renato has,

with

no

name.

betty

betty gregory

March 12, 2001 - 05:46 pm

Hats!.....a distant cousin of Velvet (actually, I think he's 5th cousin twice removed on maternal's 2nd cousin's side) is waiting for you. The longer you wait to go get him, the longer he has to sit there, waiting for you...day after day, wondering when you're coming. Really. Not being funny.

betty

betty gregory

March 12, 2001 - 07:27 pm

(Sorry to be so far off subject here...but some issues can't wait.)

Hats, I just saw a name of a stuffed animal and can't quit chuckling. Sounds like a good cat name to me...am always on the prowl for good cat names. Ready?

Pinkie Huggle Fluff

Betty

Ginny

March 13, 2001 - 03:26 am

Hats, Mrs. Olsson in Little House the TV series? What a bitter woman, a harridan, you're right! And I just can't undertand the unrelenting MIL here, we have no clue, or do we, to her attitude? Why is she this way? What great disappointment has turned her hopes to dust and anger?

Interesting character.

---

Nellie, to be content? That's a good one, I can't seem to come up with one but it might be something like that if I did...it's a hard thing to articulate, I think.

---

(Betty, we don't have cats, but THAT name is beyond the pale ! hahahahaa tho I must say our own names for our animals probably need some refinement..we've got three big dogs, one named Ibbo, one named Marley (for Marley's ghost in Dickens) and one named Casey and a horse named Tobo, so there you are... the limits of my imagination).

---

Good point, Barb, on the impending flood. I keep forgetting it. I'm not sure how far we're to go, I can see 261 in the heading, but yesterday got stopped again by Sculari asking Renato to put his own name on the list.

Now is this the first time this has happened? That somebody external other than Renato has suggested they be added to the list? Renato seems surprised Sculari (sp, hope that's right) knows about the list. How does he know about the list?

The LIST is becoming a big thing here, a....what? What?? Something in its own right.

When is somebody going to ask to have the flood or the town put on the list???

What does Sculari's sentence mean?

Does the culo work no matter who asks or forms the sentence?

Why is Milena's bitter mother not on the list? Surely a change there would be to Renato's fortune, too?

When I was in Rome last the Pilgrims brought things as well, scarves, and held up things to be blessed (and had to move fast to do it, too)...and I really like the idea of Renato and his Pilgrimage...and wonder if the whole town is going to get in on this in a minute because I keep forgetting about the flood.

Jeff, thank you for that explanation of the walled cemeteries in Italy, it's fascinating. I'm trying to remember if I've ever even SEEN a cemetery in Italy, on my next trip I'll pay more attention! It makes sense, the walls, the bit about the bones of course reminded me of the columbarium in Rome...hope that's the right word. I wonder if any of that about the walls is a hold over from ancient times and the graves outside the city on the Appian Way.

I think it might be a bit difficult to pick among your parents's bones. I know I would not want to do it. Once again I'm surprised that Renato, even tho not a "church person," would not want the priest there particularly...I'm assuming, then, that his parents were likewise not religious, or????

???

Lots of questions....hahha can't WAIT to get to the spot about questions and answsers.

ginny

Hats

March 13, 2001 - 04:41 am

BETTY, I will take PINKIE .

WHAT A POEM!!

HATS

Nellie Vrolyk

March 13, 2001 - 02:06 pm

My only pet is a small black poodle by the name of Daisy.

Barbara, I have been thinking about what you said about accepting ourselves warts and all and that leading to an acceptance of society warts and all. Accepting yourself as you are is a hard thing to do, but it is possible. I accepted myself warts and all, little quirks and foibles and so forth, long ago when I came to the realization that I could never be the perfect, good person I thought I had to be. How could I be 'good' when there was and is a part of me that relishes reading books in the horror genre, books filled with murder and mayhem? How could I be 'good' when I thought evil things about my fellow humans at times? I am the best I can be and have accepted that I have hidden less likable parts.

I have found that I tend to be far more accepting of society as it is than other people around me. I sense that other people like me are both good and bad and that society will reflect this since it is made up of people.

To be content means not only being satisfied with what you have, it also means being satisfied with yourself.

But enough of this drift

I was going to take you all along on my morning stroll to a nearby store for my daily purchase of fruits and vegetables.

Most mornings around eleven I dress myself up for a nice walk to Debajis Fresh Market. I leave by the side door and go through a white lattice gate under an arch into the front garden. There I stop to look over the garden itself. At this time of year it is filled with the somber brown remains of last summer's beauty with here and there the green of the plants that keep growing under the winter snow. I will stand there for a moment and think of the rebirth to come as the ground warms under the heat of the Spring and early Summer sun and the plants that appear to be dead come to life again.

Now passing out through the gate in the picket fence I turn west and walk down the tree lined street to the corner. At the corner house there live two dogs behind a high fence. As I am always deep in thought -I like to think while walking- I am startled each time these dogs bark at me from behind their fence. I cross the street: first still going west and then going north. I walk past the house where the fellow has an old Volkswagen van, a wreck of a truck, and an old car sitting around. After that comes the senior's residence that is mainly for people of Ukrainian descent.

Now there is another street to cross and I am walking past St. Basil's Basilica with its golden dome and lovely landscaping. Sparrows chirp merrily in the trees as I pass by. Then another street to cross and now I turn west again and soon am at the big brick building that is my destination.

Inside I grab one of the red shopping baskets and first head for the dairy case and get some of my favourite yogurt. Then I go from one delicious display of fruit to the other, tasting the samples that have been set out, and buying small amounts of things that taste good. Then I get my green pepper, onion, zucchinis and mushrooms. Next I go to the Deli where I get shaved honey ham and Swiss gruyere to have for my lunch. Next there is the bakery where I get wholegrain bread or buns and a couple of muffins and then it is pay for everything. Finally I retrace my steps home.

I hope you enjoyed walking along with me

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 14, 2001 - 02:18 am

Nellie how absolutly delightful to imagine your walk - and a Basilica! Is it domed Nellie?

Ginny how would Maria Saverenia seem to you if she was a he? Would Mario Saverenia, seem less bitter? I love Hats reminding us of "Little House..." I think both women are business women, women that must make a success among friends and family that could easily ask for so many favors putting their establishments at risk if they allowed one favor which could lead to another. Therefore, they must stay not only aloof but with an edge so that favors are not even asked and then they do not have to turn down the family or friend asking for the favor.

I think Renato feels this coldness from his MIL and sees it as Maria Severina not liking him.

There is Tonino, more likable but giving away some drinks at the going away dinner - no profit there and left to run the bar alone he would not be so successful ultimatly causing the closing of the bottega.

What I think is interesting, she is like a hub to the entire story. Granted the bottega is the center of the social community and Milena also works there but every phase of the story has Renato stopping in or leaving from the bottega often with some mention of Maria Severina.

Cats, cats and more cats - years back when my children were children we had a cat called Patches. Paul's 5th grade teacher came to school one day with four kittens and the first ones back would get a kitten. Well Paul hoped the school yard fence, as he often did and came home for lunch asking for his note. Voila Patches. Recently learned this teacher was a looker and he had a secret crush on her.

I think I am now seeing the culo as a goal list - you know how they say put your dreams on paper in the form of a postive worded goal and look at it often which promotes your working toward the goal. Sorta fits what this list is becoming I think.

Ginny I believe most have actually finished reading the book and are simply savouring it as we section the book for more in-depth understanding, looking beneath the surface, as we find things especially meaningful, that resonate and lead to our personally making connections between our head and heart.

Just the last few chapters, Renato's trip to Rome, is all that we will probably focus a few more questions and then a wrap.

Alf made her wrap a long way back and saw Renato as being renewed as in a Baptism of water. I am looking forward to reading what everyone saw as the critical lesson or event.

I really need to share a bit about the responsiblity bit. Until I read this it never occured to me how much carrying out responsiblity could affect others.

Example, we have a sales meeting on Tuesday morning that I really was not faithful in attending. I thought them boring and a waste of time. It never occured to me that my attendence would make Venessa feel more successful and I would be establishing a closer bond with the others in the office. That others having the same attitude as I about the meetings some would notice I was in attendence and they would start feeling like supporting the meetings, on and on. In time this would lead to an office of higher morale which ultimatly affects all our morale. Work is more fun when morale is high and we are more successful when morale is high. And so, my attending these meeting affects my moral, my success, other's morale and success and our office's morale and success.

In affect when we carry out responsibility we are giving to others and receiving from others as Renato says on page 322, "I've been trying to give something to them...the way I give water to their houses...look at what these people have given to me."

YiLi Lin

March 14, 2001 - 10:00 am

Nellie and Barbara- I think you are both exploring the "I am You- You are Me" so whether one accepts onself or society (others) we are all interconnected and so "one can only accept".

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 14, 2001 - 11:14 am

Yes, Yili Lin - for me it is just sorting out how to accept when certain behavior by some is so damaging - I question if punishment is appropriate - oh dear this could be a discussion of its own -

Betty you must be delighted today - it is raining again!

Jeff, today I plan on finding the bit about questions and answers.

Nellie everytime I think about your walk it sounds so exatic - a Basilica, a home for those of Ukrainian descent and choosing fresh foods daily.

Hee hee I guess I have some Duncan ways - last evening I thought I needed to treat myself. I've been working incredable hours. So I stopped to eat at a Korean resturant in my area and even splurged ordering some Duck with vegtables on steamed rice. And then I drove over to Borders, since they have a video section of classic music.

Well did I ever luck out. Murray Perahia has 3 videos of the 5 Beethoven Piano Concertos. I have 2 of the tapes and had ordered the 3rd but was told it was no longer available. There it was - Concertos Nos. 2 and 4 on sale for only 9.95 - stayed up too late watching and listening - these 2 concertos seem less than the other 3 but now I can enjoy all 5!

And yes, true to Duncan I have books piled all over as well as, in what were empty drawers, closet shelves - my hutch is full of books rather than china - books and more books.

Nellie Vrolyk

March 14, 2001 - 02:26 pm

very quickly today: Barbara, yes the Basilica does have a dome. That golden dome is always a sign of home to me, for when I see it I know my home is not far away. The senior's residence belongs with the Basilica. I will often see one of the priests going to the residence to bring communion to those who are unable to leave their apartment. They also have a house kitty corner from the senior's home in which three old nuns reside.

betty gregory

March 14, 2001 - 08:20 pm

Hmmm. Glorious rain.

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 15, 2001 - 02:42 am

Cats, kitty cornered, walks, rain, I am you, the past is always present, change, spring, culo, all swirled in my head today. Something in me said, a break from high emotions, legal particulars, initialed paper work, updating surveys, rotted facia, termite damage and bottom line costs. I cryed 'uncle' today, and this is what I worked on - hope y'all enjoy it -

Servent to the Crystal and Jade Mansion.

When will the river awaken spring thaw?
I ask the crystal moon,
Pussy willows gleam gold near sun's turning sky
In the softness of their budding lore
Still along the frozen creek
Promise of spring release these stalks
Swaying dust, yellow catkins sigh.

When will I wash my mother's glass vase?
I dance with moon-lit shadow,
My willow fluff hears pipes of pan
Veil yesterday's coffee stain, an antique vase,
Boots all muddy, socks soaked,
A child snaps a branch, a frog croaked
At the lake, promise in my daughter's hand.

Hats

March 15, 2001 - 08:10 am

Barbara, did you write that? It is beautiful.

I love Pussy Willows. I have not seen any yet. There are white Dogwoods blooming all around us. I have not seen any pink ones. Do they bloom later?

HATS

betty gregory

March 15, 2001 - 10:50 am

That is exquisite, Barbara! My goodness!

betty

YiLi Lin

March 16, 2001 - 06:11 pm

aah certain behaviors so damaging, i'm still not good at it but i at least now take the time to wonder why i believe i must intervene in a non-good of others- to make it right? just to announce it is a non-good? when in reality it just is....anyway that is something i caught early on about renato- no matter how he saw other characters and events, though his daughter said to just accept- he did not seem (to me) to need to announce right or wrong nor enact retribution. even his going to rome did not appear to be motivated by a need to right a wrong, the act itself was just in the overall scheme of things.

think that is one of the important things the book teaches- whether on purpose or not- perhaps what we see in the town and its people is a rather nonjudgemental atmosphere- even the hustling, and sometimes pouty or irritable personalities, etc. do not seem to be judging- ?

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 17, 2001 - 12:50 am

Yili Lin I wonder if his not needing to right a wrong but, just act on his dream, as we today often say our intuition, is that the act of Faith that is his feather allowing the wind to lift him higher.

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 17, 2001 - 12:58 am

Ah yes... and this is where Jeff, I must ask - while writing the book did you have any aha moments. Not the aha's that may have come as you researched for the book or as you met and learned more about the real people you touched and that became part of this story but, was there any personal light bulb moments while you actually wrote out the story?

YiLi Lin

March 17, 2001 - 07:10 pm

...The star shoots past in the sky and you haven't found the words yet to say your wish, and in a minute the star is gone and you haven't asked for anything. p. 308

Later in life I learned that the universe does not read minds- you must ask for something then just a scooch past 'later in life'- I learned you must know what you want in order to ask for it- and only recently I learned that it is also important to know why you want it

What did Renato want? Seems he spent a lot of time creating a wish list for others, is he a man without wants, thus missing that shooting star; or has he not figured it out yet?

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 17, 2001 - 09:11 pm

Yili Lin I love your using color in your post - I wonder if on this St. Pats day you are saying something with the green and red/orange??

Your comment on asking prompted me to realize - Who knows how different my life would be if I had asked before the stars were gone - I was a well trained child that learned not to ask for things. Before WW2 life seemed always on the brink but the family pride seemed to be centered in not asking.

Asking is still a rather truamatic experience for me in which I go through mental arguments that usually start with: Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea.

I've re-read and I think the climax was intended to be when Renato steps in the puddle and saw the reflection of his own hand. He realizes the words on the list were written in him.

And yet for me the more powerful climax was when the Pope tripped and fell against Renato. Renato face to face sees the Pope as a vulnerable old man that others just ask of him but seldom give to him. It is at that moment that Renato sees his own self-empowerment. He does not have to look to this great powerful figure as the one who could change his luck. He even gives to this powerful man a small treasure. We all have small treasures that we can give.

I have never been to Rome but when I saw the photos of the Basilica that are included in the link above, Renato's Tuscany, I thought how could anyone even think, dwarfed is such grandeur, such magnificence. The sheer size must make a mere human feel breathless. This to me is the symbol of the great power we give to those we think have an inside line to the power capable of changing luck or interceding with God.

The equality reflected in a tripping Pope cushioned by Renato seemed to me to be the climex to the quest. To really understand what it means to be, as we learned as Catholics, "The body of Christ." That no priest or representative of God is more powerfully able than we are powerful. That within we have the knowledge and understanding of our luck if we would only listen, have Faith, trust.

That understanding was for me the coming together of Renato's quest. The reflective puddle and his realization that the list was within seemed secondary.

Jeff Shapiro

March 18, 2001 - 03:33 am

Ciao!

I'll steal a few moments (from work on the new book!) to write down a thought or two. We seem to be approaching the final part of the book and I see that Barbara has once again posted some wonderful questions.

I had mentioned a while back that a certain passage toward the end of the book comments on questions and answers. Shall we take a minute to play with these ideas now?

Ginny, in her posting of March 10, picked up on the interplay of questions and answers. Questions aren't only the interrogatives put to us by other people, but are also the results of the search for understanding within ourselves. Especially in this regard, I would ask you all once again: Would you rather cling to a categorical answer or to an intriguing question?

My own observation is that, paradoxically, questions are often closer to what we might call "the truth" than are simplistic answers.

Most of life's big questions defy easy answers, but the process of wrestling with the questions can lead to more sensitive understanding.

An example: On Friday afternoons, I teach advanced English conversation courses at a language university here in Siena. Naturally my goal is to make students speak as much as possible, so I often try to introduce provocative topics. A few weeks ago I brought to class a list of themes from modern bioethics. The class discussed such questions as "How do you feel about genetic engineering? Artificial insemination? Cloning? Organ transplants? Human subjects in drug-research? The use of placebos in the process of drug-development? End-of-life care?" Here I think you'll find that easy answers tend to become shortsighted dogma. The questions, however, give rise to other questions, all leading toward, if nothing else, a deeper appreciation of the delicacy of the issues involved.

Throughout much of the book, Renato struggles with questions that don't have evident answers. The list he compiles is not so much a wish-list as a reminder to himself of questions that he considers to be of central importance. Many of the thoughts on the list clash with each other. "That things may change!" and "The ephemeral is beautiful" would suggest that change is a positive force in life. "In an instant, a lifetime disappears like a dream" implies that change can be painful. So what's the easy answer? Is change good or bad?

Jeff Shapiro

March 18, 2001 - 04:15 am

If I had to walk around with a list of phrases in my ass-pocket, I can think of several things said by other people that are of particular importance to me. Many of these point to the notion that "truth" refuses to be pinned down by definitions that are too one-sided. Some of these favorite quotations?

A great rabbi once said, "You should go through life with a slip of paper in each of your two front pockets. On one slip of paper there should be written 'For my sake the world was created.' On the other slip of paper there should be written 'I am nothing but dust and ashes.'" If taken together, these contradictory comments give a glimpse of an interesting truth. Take hold of only one slip of paper, throwing away the other, and you'll find you're holding on to a lie.

The cartoonist Jules Pfeiffer wrote a play (and I wish I could remember what it was called!). At the end of the play, a woman dancer turns to the audience and says, "Is life worth dancing about? Yes. No. Yes. No. Why do I keep on dancing? To celebrate the yes and celebrate the no."

The philosopher Soren Kierkegaard once said, "Real maturity is the recognition of the ambiguity of our accomplishments and of our failures." (I'm paraphrasing from memory here. Can't get my hands on the original source.)

The English philosopher Alfred North Whitehead said, "In formal logic a contradiction is the sign of defeat, but in the evolution of true knowledge it is the first step towards victory."

I remember listening to a talk given by a Korean Buddhist monk in Cambridge, MA, only some twenty-two years ago. He said to the group, "I ask you, 'Do you have a name?' If you say yes, I will hit you thirty times. If you say no, I will hit you thirty times. So now what are you going to do?"

How does this tie in with "Renato's Luck"? Have a look at page 323. Pondering the difficulty of reconciling the thoughts he has written down on his piece of paper, Renato enjoys a new little insight:

"Maybe it's the ambiguity itself, he thought, that gives life its taste." (The word "ambiguity" should be in italics, but I don't know how to do that in this message-posting space! I wish there were a way to put the word not only in italics but also in neon lights.)

The language of that sentence may not be especially beautiful; the thought the line contains, however, is dear to me. Ambiguity, according to the dictionary I use, means "the possibility of interpreting an expression in two or more distinct ways."

Ambiguity, paradox, and contradiction are by no means "bad." To the contrary.

Self-acceptance becomes easier when, instead of trying to eliminate all inner doubts and conflicts and unfulfilled yearnings, you embrace these troublesome traits as an integral part of yourself.

In terms of looking for a mental attitude that makes even the painfully contradictory parts of life more liveable, I would write down on my little slip of paper another favorite quotation (once again paraphrased, because unfortunately I don't have the original here in Italy with me). Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee, in their play "Inherit the Wind," wrote, "When a man loses the power to laugh he loses the power to think straight."

Humor is incredibly important. Renato starts to get his head straight only when mentally he catches sight of himself standing in St Peter's Square. His reaction? He has a good laugh.

Compassion, too, is indispensable. Renato's thought, a bit higher up on page 323 -- "And he wasn't the only one torn apart by the clash of true thoughts, because Duncan was torn apart, too, as were most people, because we're all in the same navicella together, and people go through what most other people go through, as the voice of Cappelli reminded him: 'You are another I.'"

I'll stop here because I dread becoming preachy. Answers make me nervous! I feel far more at ease when grappling with questions.

Thought I'd throw in my two liras' worth.

Barbara, do any of these thoughts apply to your search for clear-cut answers to the question of what is good and what is bad? (Your poem, by the way, was unequivocably good, not bad. Brava!)

Much love, Jeff

YiLi Lin

March 18, 2001 - 09:35 am

Barbara you were also supposed to be impressed that i did bold! but the downside that red or orange was supposed to be dark green- i was in a tonal mode- can't figure out why it was red if i said color= dark green?,

Anyway after reading History:A Novel with you in the past, I will steer clear of basilica's, etc. As a child I too was conditioned never to ask- not because of WW2- a "girl" asking was selfish, plus in my youth when I noted I never got what I asked for anyway- I had this amazing urge to grow up very fast so I could master my own wants and rewards. Somehow I had a sense that the individual creates his wants and it was the individual who could get them (or not). Not bad looking back on it, if we take it out of the Horatio Alger context, the mindset did set me on a road where I did not blame others or hold grudges for things not received in this life.

In a way Renato realizing that the notes were "in him" is one of those aha moments- sorta DUH! after all if life is a perception or at least a translation by perceptions of the individual- then of course he would either translate or hear only those phrases that were necessarily a part of him (him as an I).

Oh Jeff, I would not have said yes or no to the monk's question, I would have just announced my name- what do you think? thirty lashes or I escaped?

ps why did ochre turn out blue?

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 18, 2001 - 11:19 am

Hee hee let me answer the easy one first Yili LIn the colors - the dark green needs to be written darkgreen and there is no ochra the closest would be blanchedalmond or peru or sandybrown or tan or wheat. The greens could be darkgreen - olive - forestgreen.

The basic 10 are aqua, black, blue, cyan, fushia, lime, magenta, red, white,white and yellow.

Netscape 2.0 and Explorer 2.0 will support aqua, black blue, fushia, gray lime, maroon,navy, olive, purple, red, silver, teal, white,white and yellow.. by the way I thing goldenrod is prettier.

there are 140 color names developed for the window system, but only 10 are a sure thing.

<i> is how a word is written in Italics - followed by </i> to stop the italics and in another set of instructions <font size="5"> we can enlarge letters - </font size="5">most browsers default at a size "3" and the largest size is "7"

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 18, 2001 - 12:53 pm

Ok now on the more serious notes that you Jeff enlarged upon.

The monk thing reminds me of the animal "push me - pull me" in that Rex Harrison movie that included the song I talk to the Animals. What was the name of that movie? I wonder if there was a deeper message in that movie than I caught at the time. Talk about a great image of ambiguity. Seems to me the image was of a llama with two heads.

The problem I have with ambiguity is, it makes me feel frozen, no movement, my mind is then twirling with more facets of, the sometimes many sided approaches, to the question. Yes, I can see laughing at the conundrum but, it would always be there, under my skin, till I at least have it sorted out so that the behavior attached to the differing understandings could be explored.

The upshot for me is that I spend so much time in my head wrestling with these thoughts I can easily miss the wonders of the day. Or the biggie, not complete as much as I really want to accomplish. Many of the things in life I want to try seem to slide as my days roll into, what as a child I was labled, "day dreaming." Hmmm maybe my life was ment to be lived on a hillside with four sheep.

I really like your thought Jeff -

Self-acceptance becomes easier when, instead of trying to eliminate all inner doubts and conflicts and inner yearnings, you embrace these troublesome traits as an integral part of yourself.

Troublesome my goodness yes. I learned most folks quickly become inpatient with loose, winding questions and having these questions has never fit well with the high level action expected in order to "chop wood and carry water."

The other aspect, laughter, humor is something I do not adapt so quickly. Again today I can not think of the name of movies but the Italian move that won the oscar two years ago. It was about a Jewish man and his boy in the concentration camp. I can see now, not only the humar in face of the horrors experienced but, the amibiguity of each day and the overall comcept of what was happening. In some ways it was like looking in the mirrors at a fun house. How could this all be happening and then the laughter - the laughter when the uncles horse is painted and labled 'Jew,' when the childen were to be taught in school that a body shape could ID the correct race...

Looks like instead of relying on my heavy German genes that desires organization, I need to explore the tiny bit of Irish genes from my mother's family, that have been ellusively hidden in my brain and start to laugh with and at life. Hmmm for me to live with ambiguity is a tall order, scarry. Aha it would take faith and to me faith means trust - and that is where I trip and fall, the trust issue - shesh

I know this is me speaking about how these thoughts could relate to my life - well that is a big part of why I read - Jeff thanks for adding your thoughts in the posts - I didn't really see it clearly until you gave us your tutorial.

Did the real Renato get it that ambiguious questions were ok and part of his life?

Jeff Shapiro

March 19, 2001 - 04:33 am

Barbara, I noticed the way you posted the quotation on ambiguity. Neon, at last! You're a sweetheart.

Love, Jeff

Ginny

March 19, 2001 - 11:04 am

I have finally, reluctantly, finished my own passeggiata through this wonderful book. It's a book you don't want to finish, really, you want to linger along, taking your time, trying to figure out what is meant...

Nellie, I enjoyed your own version of your daily walk, and Barb, once again, the questions are out of this world and the poem was wonderful!!

---

Suddenly in this last part of the book a lot happens, a lot of ends are tied together, I actually got chills over the feather at St. Peter's, "It's a feather to fly on," the man said.

I thought the mention of Don Luigi actually diminished this moment, was perhaps unnecessary, however, because up to that point, Don Luigi had perhaps added one of the books more memorable...well... metaphors if you will, as they sat together on the church steps.

It's actually quite interesting to me that for a person who has not been to confession since he was a child and who was not a church person, Renato seems to find that the people in the book who seem to convey the most important concepts are connected to the church? I'm not sure what that means.

On page 323 again we see, after the ambiguity paragraph, Renato's own realization that "Yes, what he lacked was faith."

Plot wise, I loved the fact that the town was saved, appreciated the fact that the symbol for Christianity was not explained initially altho it's pretty common, very much appreciated the Pope's explanation of the connection of the small boat to the Saint and the town, that was very nice.

I loved the humor in the "seminar on absurd anatomical perils" and "my sister's husband's cousin's son-in-law" (somebody knows my own in laws, I see, ahahahah)...

I don't know what was meant on page 270 by "I can't carburete..."

(By the way, who milked the goats while he was gone to Rome? He seemed to take care of everything else??)

I was surprised he walked from the Termini to Vatican City??!!?? Jeepers, quite the hike. I was entranced by the Via Della Conciliazione with St. Peter's Dome at the end because that's where I like to stay in Rome, right there on the Via Della Conciliazione in front of St. Peter's with its, as it was put so well in the book, outstretched arms.

I appreciated that it was a fig tree which rested at the grotto because of its appearance time and again in the Old and New Testaments. I wonder what signifigance it has? It's interesting to find it here, too, conncected in some way to the town, the saint's grotto, and Renato's own rebirth. Edit: I had originally had Jonah and the fig tree here but it was Jonah and the gourd! hahaha Need to get my figs and gourds straight!

I liked the way the LIST took on greater and greater proportions, that the whole town got involved, that it made the entire town one, all in the "boat" together, that's all very nice imagery....(You are another I)..and that because of it Renato could enjoy the luxury of "sipping" loneliness because he had so much togetherness to return to. Maybe that's why people enjoy NYC, it's overwhelming and you can momentarily enjoy the luxury of being alone and insignificant.

I liked the way the town built the tabernacle (interesting choice of word there, not shrine?) and that because of that action, maybe, maybe not, the dam stopped? Neat stuff?

I especially admired Renato's abandoning his silly hand on ass stance when reality struck, that was good, he thought for himself, he kept asking questions and trying to think his way thru. I liked that. And the list washed away.

But now can we say that he accomplished for the towns people (I know Tita decided to pick the grapes, but I have not had enough time to figure out HOW his list helped THEM all...by including her back in the life of the town, perhaps?) Duncan and Meg meeting over the farewell dinner, is THAT how the List accomplished its goal?

Need to think on that a bit, the issue of whether or not hoping and thinking as Renato did were enough, without having to do one hand shaking and the other one on his backside?? After all he's the person who came up with the plan in the first place, the author of it, you might say. So this "author," in midstream, let the conception itself go off in a new direction (people asking to be on the list, people giving a farewell party, the Mayor giving the waterworks truck for Rome?)...so he's open and questing.

I liked the fact that the hand was not the Pope's, after all, and the ring was not his so that Renato has to keep on questing and thinking. If Renato was stuck with only answers at this point, he would have learned nothing.

(BTW, there's a grammar or spelling error on page 292, isn't there? "So what can you chose to do?")

---

So we come, at last, reluctantly, to the issue of the question and the answer. And what it means.

What if?

He looked at the list, and the lines were beatuiful in his eyes. What if this list had nothing to do with the pope? he asked himself. What if this list was meant for me? What if the dream sent me here to Rome only as a way for me to find this list? Coult this be the treasure shown to me in the dream?

What if a person stops asking questions and only relies on the answers? Then perhaps he doesn't find any treasures in this life? As long as you can keep the "what if" alive in your own life maybe you keep yourself alive.

Even in the midst of death?

Good book, several issues not covered at this point, want to hear what everybody else says. VERY good book.

ginny

Ginny

March 19, 2001 - 11:32 am

Barbara, you asked, "Ginny how would Maria Saverenia seem to you if she was a he? Would Mario Saverenia ..."

I actually did not make any connection between the Maria part, perhaps I should have! I was hung up on the Severina which seemed to me to suggest severe and wondering why that woman always had both of her names given at the same time? And why she was not on the List? And what it meant that she was not?

I don't see too much difference in Maria and Mario but maybe you've figured out something there which I haven't. I KNOW there's something else here that I need to figure out but, having just read it, I'm not far enough along yet.

---

Jeff asked, "Would you rather cling to a categorical answer or to an intriguing question? "

Depends on who is answering and who is asking? Depends on who the answer comes from and when it comes. Who has answers anyway?

I find it almost impossible to answer anybody on anything but I sure can ask questions (not as well as that, tho..that's a toughie!)....

I would say if it were I myself asking or answering, you would be a whole lot better off with the questions. ahahahah

ginny

ALF

March 19, 2001 - 12:09 pm

 Jeff: I thank you for your testimony of "life."  Is this not life, indeed?  Ambiguity abounds!  Isn't life full of double entendres, dubiety and vague meanings?  Each time I ponder the absurdity of life I ultimately opt for humor in the discovery of answers  , as inconclusive and vexatious as they are.  Renato has that charm, too.  You have that charm and I shall never view the word "ambiguity" anywhere without thinking  what a superb quest Renato accomplished.  Wonderful writing and very thought provoking insight.  Thank you.

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 19, 2001 - 01:52 pm

From that book I always refer - An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols

Fig, Fig Tee of Pipal - Life; peace; prosperity. The fig tree is sometimes the Tree of Knowledge and combines symbols of both the masculine and feminine priciples, the fig leaf being the male and the fig the female. The fig leaf depects lust and sex. The basket of figs is fertility and represents woman as goddess or mother. Christian Has been used in place of the apple in the Garden of Eden. Hebrew Peace; prosperity; plenty; a symbol of Isreal, with the vine.

Cave - A symbol of the universe, the world center; the heart; the place of union of the Self and the ego; the meeting place of the divine and the human. All dying gods and saviors are born in caves; inner esoteric knowledtge; that which is hidden; a place of initiation and the second birth. The sheltering aspec of Mother Earth. a place of burial and rebirth, of mystery, increse and renewal, from which man imerges and to which he returns at death in the stone sepulchre; the emergence of man associates the cave with the Cosmic Egg.

Initiation ceremonies most frequently took place in a cave as symbolic of the underworld and the sepulchre where death took place prior to rebirth and illumination. As a place of initiation is was also a secret place, the entrance was hidden from the profane by a labyninth or dangerous passage. Entering the cave is also re-entry into the womb of Mother Earth, as with cave burials.

Feather - Truth , which must rise; lightness; dryness; the heavens; speed; space; flight to other realms; the soul; the element of wind and air as opposed to the humid principel. Christian Contemplation; faith.

Ring - power; dignaty; sovereignty; strength; protection; delegated power; completion. The ring is equated with the personality and is also a binding symbol. The origin is not known but suggests the the revolving univers; the All. Christian Eternity; union; spiritual marriage to the Church. The sapphire denotes the office of the cardinals.

Jewel - The heart; the sun and moon; light and heat; hidden treasure of knowledge and truth also transient riches. Garnet Devotion, loyalty, energy, grace. Ruby Royalty, dignity, zeal, power, love, passion, beauty, longevity, invulnerability. Sapphire Truth, heavenly virtues, celestial contemplation, chastity, apotropaic.

Hand - One of the most symbolically expressive members of the body. According to Aristotle the hand is the 'tool of tools,' that indicates joy, sorrow, hesitation, confession, penitence, measure, quantity, number and time. An Open Hand bounty, liberality, justice. Hebrew The hand of God is 'the right hand of the majesty on high.' Christian The power and might of God. The hand appearing from the cloud is the presence and power of God the Father.

Tabernacle Hebrew A world centre; the heart of the world; the cosmos; the Holy of Holies; the abode of the Shekinah.

Does anyone know who is the Shekinah??

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 19, 2001 - 02:13 pm

aha found it

she-ki-nah noun A visible manifestation of the divine presence as described in Jewish theology. (shakchan, to dwell)

A great site that further explains Shakinah and its use in the Bible.

SarahT

March 20, 2001 - 07:31 am

Jeff, I understand you will soon leave us to work on another novel, but please know that your presence here was a true gift. I finished the book awhile back now, but it really made the book come alive to continue to read your comments here. Will look forward to your next book with relish.

I had a couple of questions about aspects of the book: is it really that easy to see the Pope? I'm not even Catholic, but somehow Renato's experience made me think about going to the Vatican. Rick Steves, who does PBS' Travels in Europe program, just showed the Rome episode, but didn't mention attending the papal masses.

Also, still not clear on why Renato's mother in law is so bitter, especially since she is surrounded by such warm loving people. I always assume that bitterness begets bitterness, so I can't understand her.

Finally, is the real Renato as young as the book's Renato? Someone commented early on that Renato seemed older that he actually is - and I have always visualized the book's Renato as a much older man (probably because I'm Renato's age, and I don't have nearly as much wisdom!!!).

Thanks, once again, for the beautiful gift you have given us!

Hats

March 21, 2001 - 03:09 am

Sorry, I have gotten so far behind, but when I have the chance, I always read all of the posts because they inspire me.

First of all, this has been my first chance to be involved with an author in a discussion. I will never forget the experience. Thank you Barbara for bringing in Jeff Shapiro, and thank you Jeff Shapiro for coming. Jeff brought much enlightenment to the book. It was a joy to have his mother here too.

Barbara, the questions were unforgettable. Your questions brought me closer to understanding and accepting Jeff's answer,

"Questions are often closer to what we might call "the truth" than are simplistic answers."

Yes, questions leave me wondering and wondering. Without questions, the wonder of life would be gone. We would have all the answers. Perhaps, the moon and all of its planets are still magnificent because they are still a mystery. I never want the answers to all mysteries. Life might become pretty boring.

Like Ginny, Maria Severina left me wondering, not knowing. Ginny wondered "...Why was she not on the list?" I did not wonder about that until Ginny brought the question up. Then, I thought, oh yeah, why was her name not on the list?

Maybe she was too filled with her own anxieties to think of her needs or have questions about life. She did seem to be in a rut, and I do not think anyone could push her out of it. I guess we have to kind of want to push ourselves out of our ruts. Those ruts can be bitterness, apprehension, etc.

Sarah made me chuckle, but in all seriousness, I had her same thought.

"Im not even Catholic, but somehow Renato's experience made me think about going to the Vatican."

I will never look at the Vatican in the same way. I will always remember Renato. Maybe this is when a book has hit pay dirt. If a person, can always remember some part of it and add it to the remainder of their life.

THANKS AGAIN, JEFF SHAPIRO AND BARBARA.

betty gregory

March 21, 2001 - 09:31 am

I had been thinking this morning (on other things) how often we take for granted things that are most dear. So, coming in here, I want to specifically say to Barbara how much I appreciate her work (everywhere) to bring us background and history and context...and even Art!! (here and in Brothers K, just recently). How much that adds!!

And to Charlie, I want to say how much I appreciate his work to find authors to join us!! After this discussion especially, can we ever doubt how MUCH this enlarges and enhances our book discussions!! Having Jeff Shapiro be one of us was a wonderful experience for me, so thank you to Jeff and thank you to Charlie! (Don't do what I've done and take someone for granted...click on Charlie's name somewhere and email him how much we've enjoyed having Jeff!!)

betty

YiLi Lin

March 21, 2001 - 11:15 am

Are all these thank you's the end? I am hoping to get the LeCarre book in time to read with you all again soon.

Barbara- what more can I say- amazing. Thanks jeff-

Hats

March 21, 2001 - 12:52 pm

Betty, I did not include Charlie. I would like to say THANK YOU to CHARLIE too.

HATS

Nellie Vrolyk

March 21, 2001 - 03:41 pm

I want to thank Jeff for writing this most enjoyable book and for spending the time with us in this discussion.

I want to thank Barbara for being such a gracious leader and for asking the sometimes tough questions in the heading. I'm still thinking over a number of them and have decided that the questions are better than any answers I could come up with.

I want to thank all those who participated for their thoughtful posts which I enjoyed reading.

Jeff Shapiro

March 22, 2001 - 09:45 am

Hello, everyone.

Please excuse me for not posting earlier. You've put forward many interesting questions that I've felt eager to answer.

Sarah mentioned Renato's age. When the real-life Renato took his trip to Rome, he was, I believe, only a year or two older than his fictional counterpart. Were you to have the pleasure of meeting the real-life man, I'm sure you'd agree that he is wise well beyond his years.

I shared in your surprise that access to the Pope was so easy. When Renato told me the story of how he went to Rome, attended mass, positioned himself near the door he figured the Pope would use to make his exit, and, amazingly, succeeded in shaking the Papal hand, I wondered if he was stretching the truth. Knowing him for some time, though, I have to say that I've never known to him to tell an untruth. Why not believe him in this case as well?

I was intrigued, too, by the question of whether or not the book's Renato managed to resolve the difficulties of everyone on his list. Good point. Keeping in mind that many entries on the list were expressions of some of life's insoluble paradoxes, I thought, while writing the book, that a "quick cure" for each and every character would have been overly artificial. If nothing else, Renato, upon his return to town, could offer his heartfelt participation in each character's quandary.

Many of you have asked why Maria Severina was so bitter. I got a kick out of this question and shared it with my wife Valeria. Valeria had just got back from the outdoor market day in Siena when I mentioned the question. "Tell your friends at SeniorNet," she replied, "to come to the market in Siena. They'll meet a thousand Maria Severinas, elbowing them in the ribs to cut ahead of them in line at the stalls."

There's one answer. I wanted to add another thought. I'm not even sure I would call Maria Severina "bitter." "Nasty," yes. At times. But "bitter" implies "embittered," and that word in turn implies the process of becoming bitter as the consequence of some circumstance. Maybe Maria Severina simply IS that way.

What does she represent to me? I see her as a woman entirely of this world. She lives in the unadorned, concrete practicality of work. Life, to her, means getting paid by her customers without getting screwed by anyone. Period.

She stands in contrast to the dreamier, more other-wordly aspects of Renato. Renato's perceptions move in a very natural manner past the physical to a kind of metaphysical appreciation. In Maria Severina's eyes, the physical world is the only world. Renato, therefore, appears to her as a mental time-waster.

Not everyone loves a dreamer. Some people in town, such as the banker, consider Renato a fool with his head in the clouds. I wanted to bring this disapproval as close to home as Renato's own family. Renato knows that not everyone shares his wavelength. Nevertheless, he carries on doing what he feels he should do.

(I'll backtrack a second to my mention of Valeria. When this discussion group was just getting started, I discussed with Barbara the possibility of putting together a link to a page called "Valeria's kitchen," including recipes. I think Valeria was a bit daunted by the prospect of writing that much stuff down in English. Yes, I would have given her a hand, and the recipes were something that she very much wanted to do. Unfortunately, her schedule turned as crazy as mine, what with her singing rehearsals and concerts, and she simply did not have the time. Please accept apologies from us both! I had sent Barbara a scan of my favorite photo of Valeria. She's holding wildflowers in front of the hilltop town where we have an apartment. I'm only sorry we didn't provide the chance to include that photo on this site!)

Many of your recent postings carry a good-bye message. Oh no! You've all contributed enormously. I feel enriched by the dialogue and, once again, am grateful to each of you for your participation. I'll miss this forum.

Personally I don't feel ready yet to say "addio," so let's leave it as "arrivederci" for now. I'll keep checking the posting daily and will undoubtedly post another message or two of my own.

Thank you all again.

Much love, Jeff

Nellie Vrolyk

March 22, 2001 - 02:59 pm

Jeff, I for one certainly don't want to say good-bye as yet. I'm thinking about the dreamers of the world and those who are the realists with both feet solidly on the ground. These two personalities seem to me to have a tendency to be at odds with each other, even to be somewhat combative.

In the book Renato, the dreamer, does not appear to have much of a liking for his mother-in-law Maria Severina, the realist and the feelings definitely go the other way as well.

It might be interesting to find out which of us thinks they are a dreamer and which a realist. Are you a dreamer or are you a realist? I am one of the dreamers.

Thinking now on the question about loneliness: sometimes I can be sitting as I am now at my computer conversing with others, and members of my family will be sitting in the same room, talking to me -my computer sits in the living room - the TV will be on providing another source of companionship...and yet there can be moments when I feel totally alone at that time. It makes me wonder if we perhaps tend to feel more lonely in a crowd?

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 22, 2001 - 03:48 pm

Thank goodness you are not abandoning us Jeff - because, like you, my life became very full and with all good intentions I expected to have a clickable page that included that very photo of Valeria along with the wonderful quotes from many of the posted messages.

Still plan on having clickables to the list of questions I still have after my crash. On one page I will Include Valeria's photo -

Jeff any chance Valeria would list what she would serve if a group of friends came over to discuss your book. NOT the recipe's just the name of the wine and what she would serve - tidbits or a dessert of whatever, if y'all really had a group of say 10 come and discuss the book either sitting in your garden or at your kitchen table.

We have so many books we want to read that after reading a book many of the participants want to get on with the next one. Some of us like to dwell longer on certain books than others and so we will have the site opened for awhile longer - probably till the end of the month and than it is archieved for posterity.

Jeff this has been so wonderful that I struggle to find the words that say it all - From the sound of your posts I think you may have enjoyed this as much as we did. We all feel loved by the attention you gave us.

I must say I am so glad you pointed out the bit about ambiguity - Here it was a crucial issue and I didn't pick up on it.

I have to laugh at your hee heeing as you read our discussing the merits of Maria Severina. I'm wracking my brain to note one shop keeper or resturant owner in Austin that could get away with her disposition and still be in business. And now to learn there are many Maria Severinas - oh my!

Nellie, oh do I recognize that feeling of being alone - drifting - sort of hearing others and yet not - I was labled such the day dreamer when I was a child. Having much ear surgery when I was a youngster they often thought I just hadn't heard. I must admit, like most kids, it was a handy excuse that allowed me to stay in my head rather than hoping to it. To tell the truth when what is going on in my head seems more interesting today, my family thinks I haven't heard them and I just inwardly shrug it off. I desided a long time ago that I need me. When we are together I cannot be at my grown family's beck and call all day long.

Thank you everyone for all your Kados - I loved this book long before I ever imagined we would have this chance to speak with Jeff. And so my attending this discussion was a real joy. I have learned so much more. I thought I had plumbed the book but I found because of Jeff's input and y'all's reactions there was more and more.

Y'alls posts were amazing - so many that had worthy quoteable thoughts that the possiblity of that clickable page that was going to include all these great quoteable lines become just too too much.

I think we are all so anxious to learn about your next book Jeff - You have some anxious readers supporting you and wishing you the best as you write your next wonder for us.

We will have that lovely photo of Valeria and in addition, the earlier questions as clickables. So please stop by again.

Ginny

March 22, 2001 - 03:51 pm

Here is the very beautiful Valeria Valeria with flowers

I hope this is the photo Jeff was speaking of, am going to put it in the heading as well.

Oh don't you HATE to see him go? What an experience this has been, it's just been.....we have no words with which to thank you, Jeff. We're eternally in your debt, and it's been SUCH a wonderful experience for us: we've really learned a lot about so many things...consider yourself with a million new....family members! hahahaa

What's the Italian for "wait.... wait..." hahahaa

And Valeria sings, too, my goodness, many blessings in one, we would have loved to have had a recipe, but we can certainly understand schedules, and if you made US all write one in Italian, well....

And YOU are writing a new book, and teaching, and somehow finding the time to talk to us, too. Hopefully you will be repaid for your goodness a million times over, I know that wherever you go from now on we'll be thinking of you positively, like Renato, you'll be carrying our positive hopes too. Seriously.

And yes, Many many thanks, Jeff, Barbara and our Charlie, what a wonderful thing happened here!

And Jeff, I"m hoping your mom will rejoin us here when she gets back from NYC (she KNOWS we have good taste! hahahaha)

Those ARE great questions in the heading aren't they? I regret that some of us, too, had scheduling problems and could not give this what it deserved (and still got a lot out of it!!) ....I really like that last one:

Did Renato's story bring you some personal learning - prompt you to make some changes in your life?

I think it did and I think I want to think about what that was and return , how about the rest of you??

ginny

Barbara St. Aubrey

March 29, 2001 - 12:35 am

Ok between us we finally have it all up in the heading - Ginny yes, let's leave Valeria's photo in the heading, as you suggested, rather than in one of the clickable pages.

We also now have as many of the earlier questions available to review that were still on my computer - just a few were lost.

I had wanted to sit on the ground and just feel the earth. The concept of being part of the earth would I think offer a sense of belonging. But, it has been so unseasonably cold and rainy that no way was I going to subject myself to that idea.

Now I can see Renato walking his sheep up the hill in the rain but I don't have a picture in my head of him sitting on the earth in the rain getting his ass all wet. I wonder if he takes the sheep out on the hill if it is covered in snow. I'm remembering Jeff, you said that it snowed in Tuscany.

This is quote I struggled with: "Wasn't it enough for destiny to reveal itself in its own good time, without people always having to understand why?" p. 334

I think I desided that for me asking "why" is so natural and if I am in pain it is a question filled with anguish. If I can see something in time that is a positive change or difference than the "why" doesn't matter. But, if the outcome is the dulling of the continued pain than the "why" goes on and on. Come to think of it the "why" isn't my question, "how" "how could that happen" "how did that happen" "what could I do differently" "what was I supposed to learn from all this" become my questions.

Oh to have the trust in the Tao or God or whatever to just let what is be and not feel that asking "why" is part of the exercise. My "why," "what" and "how" is like the junkie or drunk that does something, anything rather than be quiet and accept the pain.

Jeff Shapiro

March 29, 2001 - 08:43 am

Ciao di nuovo!

Thought I'd post a quick message to make a comment or two.

Yes, Ginny, that is exactly the right photo of Valeria. Thank you!

Barbara, I was very moved by your last posting. Your struggle with questions is so sincere. You are a lovely deep-feeling person. I am at a loss in knowing how to praise you adequately for the wonderful job you've done as discussion group leader. Bravissima!

Work proceeds on the next book. It, too, is set in Tuscany. It's at such a delicate stage of development right now that, almost superstitiously, I'm afraid to talk about it too much. (I promise, though, that you'll recognize many of the characters!) Once it feels sturdier, I'd be happy to tell you more about it. And once it's published, please count on me asking if you'd be interested in having a discussion group on that book, too.

This has been a wonderful, enriching experience. Heartfelt thanks to organizers and participants alike.

Baci ed abbracci!

Much love, Jeff