Revolutionary Road ~ Richard Yates and The Corrections ~ Jonathan Franzen ~ Compared ~ 3/02 ~ Book Club Online
Ginny
December 31, 2001 - 09:29 am


WELCOME -- Join us in our discussion of:







Discussion Schedule:

March 1-14: Richard Yate's Revolutionary Road

March 15-31: The Corrections by Jonathan Franzen/ a Comparison







We here are about YOUR opinion, and we want to hear it. There are no "right" or "wrong" "answers." Any and all theories that can be supported with evidence from the text are welcome.

Whether you agree with somebody or disagree we want all opinions and we want to hear them.

Please talk to the other people speaking up here, and let's get a super dialogue going.






Interesting Links:

New York Times Review of Yates
Issues and Topics Raised by Our Readers on Revolutionary Road
Questions Raised by Our Readers in Revolutionary Road


Discussion leaders were ~ Ginny and SarahT

Fiction Readers Series 2002
Month Title
February A House for Mr. Biswas
March Revolutionary Road/Corrections
April Sea, the Sea
May Painted House
June Any Small Thing Can Save You: a Bestiary
July a Steinbeck work
August Bonesetter's Daughter




Have a book you'd like to nominate for a future discussion?

Click on the Suggestion Box and post your suggestion


Ginny
December 31, 2001 - 09:38 am
Good morning and welcome to a proposed discussion of Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections. Apparently you either love it or hate it but the review above sealed my interest in it by comparing it to Richard Yates's Revolutionary Road. That did it.

If you've read Yates you know how powerful that book is. I wonder if there is any interest in comparing the two?

This discussion does not have a start date deliberately because none of our proposed discussions do, the date will be determined by the participants.

Revolutionary Road is in paperback and The Correstions is only in hardback, but a person not able to get the hardback might enjoy speaking to the issues in paperback.

We've not done any comparative lit before, are you interested at all?

Please post here if so, we require a quorum of two interested parties and one Discussion Leader to mount a discussion?

Happy New Year!

ginny

Ed Zivitz
December 31, 2001 - 12:59 pm
Count me in

Ginny
December 31, 2001 - 02:44 pm
SUPER, Ed, this will be great, have you read the Yates, by any chance?

ginny

Hats
January 1, 2002 - 05:25 am
Ginny, I am with Ed. I would like to learn from this discussion. My husband and I are going today to B/N to get my copy of The Corrections. Do we need both books, Revolutionary Road and The Corrections?

HATS

Ginny
January 1, 2002 - 08:03 am
SUPER, Hats, how delightful to see you! Have you read Revolutionary Road? If not you want to, I would say, let's try something completely different here on SeniorNet's Books and read them both?

I'll say no, you don't HAVE to have it and it may be hard to find, but if you DO want it, yes we will talk about it, how's that for an ambiguous answer? hahaahha

Yes, do get it, you won't be sorry to experience Yates. Let's talk about both. Ed, have you read Yates?

ginny

SarahT
January 3, 2002 - 01:17 pm
Yes, yes, yes. If only for his chutzpah in turning down Oprah, we should read this one. (Also, I'm curious what all the fuss is about.)

Ginny
January 3, 2002 - 01:18 pm
Whoop!! Sarah! Hats! and Ed!

Well well that makes it a quorum, and heck yes, we all need to be reading this most talking about book, and no person on earth should miss Richard Yates's Revolutionary Road!

ginny

Ella Gibbons
January 3, 2002 - 09:04 pm
At the Library today, I typed in this title and read that my library had ordered 210 copies of the book. That many copies of the book was surprising to me, but in light of all the recognition and the publicity where Oprah was concerned, I shouldn't have been. I reserved a copy and am 273rd on the list - Hahahaha!

Cannot promise I'll be here, but know you'll have fun.

Hats
January 4, 2002 - 05:46 am
I have started The Corrections. I like Franzen's style. Already, I find myself laughing as he describes his mother's inner thoughts versus what his mother really says to his girlfriend. His mother is thinking one thing and saying another. Who has not done that?

Of course, I see serious problems too. He has already lied to his parents. His mother thinks he works at Wall Street Journal. He doesn't work there. His girlfriend is married to another man. He keeps that a secret. Oh, I can see family problems already.

I gave into my book addiction and ordered Revolutionary Road by Yates.

Ginny
January 4, 2002 - 08:48 am
ELLA!
See if you can get Revolutionary Road , then, but be warned! It's got a wall in it, a rock wall a building? See what a rock wall can do to a marriage.

Hats, you make it sound so interesting, sounds like the type of lies people tell that get them into trouble. That might be an interesting theme for both books for us to look at, the tiny little deceptions in life and the consequences.

Roslyn's course is turning my mind to different ways of thinking and approaching books, we may want to try a few out here, too!

Stay tuned!

And thanks,

ginny

betty gregory
January 4, 2002 - 11:33 am
Funny (as in odd), in my pause from reading this, I'm not remembering as much of the serious stuff, the reason for the pause, as I am the funny (as in haha) moments. Not what I expected. Before, I didn't even mention the funny stuff, but this book is loaded with different shades of humor. What about Revolutionary Road? If it's all serious, that would add another contrast with Corrections.

Betty

Ginny
January 4, 2002 - 12:08 pm
Good point, Betty! are you in? I don't remember about humor in the Yates?

Revolutionary Road is, for me, one of those books that you hold in your mind as a "masterpiece" for years? And then you reread it, and have to ask yourself it if has stood the test of time. It was written in 1961, is it still vital, or is it just the darling of the literati?

Yates, of course is famous for other things, as well. There is a new book, just out, just published, a compilation of his short stories, The Collected Stories of Richard Yates, and includes some of his unpublished ones. The cover says, under his name, Author of Revolutionary Road.

Yates has been called "a writer's writer," a phrase which, in the introduction, Richard Russo suggests Yates would consider an insult: the implication that "only other writers are sophisticated enough to appreciate his many gifts... Yates is not a sophisticated writer....He doesn't need to be, he's far too talented to leave much use for either smoke or mirrors."

Yates is extraordinary, he writes many times of the dreams and longing we all have, no matter who we are, he's a talent beyond measure.

In addition, Yates wrote Eleven Kinds of Loneliness, and seven other books.

I would kill to do a Yates retrospective here in our Books, just like I would love to do the Shirley Jackson biography. Maybe once we read Revolutionary Road, there might be enough interest to pursue Eleven Kinds of Loneliness, he was a unique talent.

Now HOW he compares to Franzen, we will have to decide for ourselves. We are not the people saying this, the B&N reviews are, so let's see if we agree.

It's like calling on the name of the Troll under the bridge with famiarity and then when he actually appears, thinking better of it, let's try it!

ginny

babsNH
January 6, 2002 - 03:23 pm
Please include my name in your list of participants for this discussion. I have recently read Franzen's book, and enjoyed his writing tremendously. I can see why Oprah was raving about it! It makes me want to read more of his writing. I will try to find the Yates book immediately.

Ginny
January 6, 2002 - 03:30 pm
babsNH Yay!! yay!!


Well that is super, I am so glad to see you again!!! I look forward to this, anything you're in is good!

Now wait, tho, don't rush, notice, Everybody, there's no date on the top of this thing?

I'm leading the Book Club Online in February, of a reading of A House for Mr. Biswas by V.S. Naipaul and have just started it and it's just doggone super!!

So I can't do this in February, too, and we decided that we'd ask the participants in the discussion which date suited them, would
MARCH 1
be OK with everybody??

Chime in please!~!!

Is that too soon to read two books, one of which is pretty large (Corrections)... or??

&ginny&

babsNH
January 7, 2002 - 06:01 pm
Whenever is just fine with me. I may be gone for awhile in March but not definite. I am still going to compare the books.

MmeW
January 7, 2002 - 08:55 pm
I feel like a dolt, never having heard of Revolutionary Road (I consider myself very well read in book reviews, if not in the real thing). However, I do have a (requested) Christmas present of Franzen's Corrections and have been salivating over it--kind of like that yummy piece of cake saved for later. I think it would be interested in comparing the two (presuming that Revolutionary Road is available).

Ginny
January 8, 2002 - 09:26 am
MmeW !!! YAY!! Welcome!!


Welcome, welcome! I'm so glad you have NOT heard of Revolutionary Road, this is super, I hope you can find it and I'm so glad you will join us!

I think we will need to decide how to take this and I do think we need to propose a March 1 date.

Unfortunately my email is not functioning well, so I will just post that here and hope that BabsNH will still be OK to join us, otherwise we'd need April?

I don't have a problem with April but it does seem a long time off?

What are your druthers?

&ginny&

Ginny
January 8, 2002 - 09:36 am
8 !!


EIGHT members in our merry band assembling, who will make it 9??

(Remember that song on Sesame Street, those of you who watched it with your children? Remember the one about the Number Nine: Good grief, that's Princess Number Nine?

We're looking for Prince or Princess Number Nine here!

&ginny&

Ella Gibbons
January 8, 2002 - 10:16 am
No, Ginny, I can't discuss Revolutionary Road - the only one that I would be able to read from the Library - in March. I'm the CO-DL for the book THE SAVAGE BEAUTY, the biography of Edna St. Vincent Millay, and it's a huge book. One discussion at a time for me, but do go ahead if it is all right with everyone else.

Hats
January 8, 2002 - 11:13 am
Ginny, whatever you decide will be fine with me. I really want to do Savage Beauty too. You know me, I always bite off more than I can chew. This is such an ugly habit. I will try to do better in 2002.

Ed Zivitz
January 8, 2002 - 01:45 pm
Any date you select is O.K. with me.

I picked up a copy of Revolutionary Road in Borders. They had at least 4 copies on the shelf.

The nature of the books reminds me of my favorite definition of a dysfunctional family.... Any family that has two or more members.

MmeW
January 8, 2002 - 07:07 pm
March 1 sounds great: I love a deadline, just like school--I'll read them shortly before since I have a memory like a sieve. I've ordered Revolutionary Road from Amazon and can't wait to read them both. Since my Beaver-Cleaver family was also totally disfunctional, I know I'll love them (Home for the Holidays is one of my favorite movies). How wonderful to see MmeW in great green letters. You guys really know how to welcome someone (turned on by Phyllis Green's book). Thanks.

babsNH
January 9, 2002 - 06:10 pm
Please do not delay the start for me. I will catch up when I return, or perhaps I can use my daughter's laptop where I will be in sunny Florida. I am going to find and read RR anyhow, it will be fun to compare.

rambler
January 9, 2002 - 07:47 pm
I usually don't give a damn about fiction, but "Revolutionary Road" is a lifelong favorite of mine.

Oh, to be in Paris with April Wheeler!

Don't know about the second book. I just failed Ella on a non-fiction site, don't want to crap out again.

Who is giving us all this strange-looking typeface? (Oh, I see it's been fixed. No it hasn't. Has it? Who's in charge here?)

Ginny
January 9, 2002 - 08:08 pm
Rambler!!

Hey there! You like Revolutionary Road? YESSSSSSS! Have you read it recently?

Well you come along, Franzen or no, and in the meantime try to have a look at the Franzen, I'm sure the library has a million copies, get your name on the list and see if you like the writing, too, I hear you either HATE it or LOVE it, there's no inbetween, but, let me ask you, Paris is not the question, ahhaahhaa, would you want to be in the suburbs with April Wheeler, that's the question??

Don't answer now, PLEASE but do appear like magic in March 1!!

Rambler, what type face, what are you seeing?




Babs NH, we will be watching the screen for the Florida Laptopper! hahahahaa, But don't put yourself out, enjoy self: we will keep the light on for you, will you be gone all month? I don't think you'll regret reading RR, now on the Franzen I'm not as sure but I'll know in March, have a wonderful trip, I hate not to have you! We'll probably take the Franzen first and save RR for the last and then compare them, not sure, you all must give me some great advice here I'm reading Ros's course and bursting with new ideas to try!

(Have you all noticed the strange cover on RR? Where are they going with that? Don't say now! hahahahaa)

MmeW, my memory is like a sieve, too! I can read like a bullet but not too far in advance as I know NO details when the time comes, but...but....you know, that might be fun to try?....I wonder how it might be to look at what WE retain from the books or the various sections as we have decided to discuss them without looking back?

I mean, there has to be a reason why certain images stay in our minds, right? We might find out what stayed in yours and not in mine and see if we can see why, might be fun. AND instructive, as all of our discussions are.

Will you all be thinking of how we might approach this, I'd like your ideas?

I don't know anybody else anywhere comparing them and maybe we'll find they don't compare, except they both are between covers, but HEY, we didn't say it, did we?

I feel a super discussion coming on already!

&ginny&

dobedo1
January 19, 2002 - 06:01 pm
I would love to join the discussion group to chat about this wonderfully complex and unsettling novel.

GingerWright
January 20, 2002 - 12:26 am
Dobedo1, Welome to Senior Net and Corrections. Please stick with us as I feel You will be a great asset to this discussion. I have emailed you so please watch for it.

Ginger

SarahT
January 20, 2002 - 09:48 am
Ginny, I had no idea you "suffered" from the same - fast reader, mind like a sieve - syndrome as I. My husband can read/watch something and remember its intimate details years later. I, on the other hand, have the world's worst memory, and always have.  MmeW, join the club, and welcome.

A warm welcome to you, too, dobedo1!

betty gregory
January 20, 2002 - 10:07 pm
Count me in, Sarah, Ginny, to this odd thing of reading fast and remembering, well, less than hoped. I'll add to this the mystery of random memory. There are books I remember so much better than others, but not particularly the ones that mean the most to me. Sometimes I relate this to television product advertisements that I dislike but remember.

I just received the Yates book and will read it, but my mid-Corrections stop is definitely permanent. Yesterday, I settled in to watch a much loved old, old movie, but within ten minutes was saying no, no, no and had to go on to something else. For the time being, goodness I hope it's for the time being, I seem unable to sit through others' wrenching challenges with painful life. Or something. I'm reading and enjoying a new book on Shackleton's Antarctic expedition, however, and that's about challenge, though it's also about his incredible optimism and courage.

Betty

Louise Licht
January 22, 2002 - 01:09 pm
Ginny you hooked me. Corrections is sitting here for weeks. Every time I open it I get more annoyed with the style, premise, author? I really can't say, but it is rare that I don't finish a book and I can barely start this one. So I shall join you and see where I went wrong or right. Glad you are making it in March, gives me a chance to get into the Danish mode with Beowolf. Louise

Ginny
January 23, 2002 - 10:36 am
LOUISE! Welcome, welcome!


dobedo1 !! Welcome, welcome!


Good heavens, what a treat to come in from the beach and all that shining ocean and see your shining new faces here! I'm delighted!

Doobedo, is that like Frank Sinatra? hahahaaha what a clever name, we look forward to hearing from you, and Louise, I'm so glad to see you again!!




Now listen, Friends!!! It is clear that we have taken on a bear here. People seem to HATE The Corrections. Our burden is not to hate it or love it , (I love your attitude there, Louise) but to learn something from it and so we can say we did read it.. what on EARTH is it about?

What on EARTH is so bad?

It CAN'T be any worse than some of these Bligh movies I'm having to watch?

Maybe B&N should be flogged at sunrise for even DARING to mention it in the same breath as Revolutionary Road?

We shall soon see.

But do NOT give up on it, hate it, yes, but don't despair. Isolate why you hate it, what the author has done that makes you hate it, we'll have a good old time here.

Our method this time will be different. We will discuss the books as a whole, as Betty says above, what we remember.

We will not have to go back and pick thru each page like we normally do tho you will want both books if possible at your side. If we make a reference we will list the page, I believe Corrections is only in hard back and RR is only in paperback, so page numbers will not be a problem.

For the sake of those who have let their books go back to the library, you may want, if quoting, to include a sentence or two to refresh memories?

Sarah and Betty, yes, I've had this a long time, it has nothing to do with age, I first noticed it with mysteries? I don't read as fast as I used to, but in the "old days" I found to my shock that I could reread a mystery as if I had never read it. Why is that? Now I REMEMBER Revolutionary Road. Why is THAT?

Why do some things remain when others fall away?

At any rate, Sarah will take the first two weeks discussion of The Corrections, and I'll take the last two with the subject being RR, we are still trying to decide how to get the comparisions in and your suggestions are welcome as we proceed.

Our number has now swelled to 10~~~!!!

Who will make it 11?

&ginny&

Louise Licht
January 23, 2002 - 03:37 pm
Ginny -

DO YOU MEAN I HAVE TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK THROUGH ---WITHOUT ANY MORAL ENCOURAGEMENT OR INTELLECTUAL SUPPORT?

There's the rub! Just when I need pushing I have to have pulling. I shall do it in spite of myself.

I HOPE!!!

L

Ginny
January 23, 2002 - 03:42 pm
Do you think we need two months for this? hahahahaha

When did you plan to start reading it? Maybe we could come in here before hand and encourage each other? hahahha you are A HOOT!!!

How BADDDD can it be? I hear some people like it!

OK, this discussion starts in March, on February 1 do you want to start trying to... (geez, what a book experience) encourage each other? I'm game?

February 1-8, pp???-???

hahahahah

I have NEVER in 5 1/2 years, EVER had so much....er....comment about a book before hand. I would NOT miss this experience if I end up shredding the pages in the fire after they are read!

What about the rest of you, wanna read along with Mitch in February to try to deal with it in March?

We can cool our heels in the cool water of Richard Yates later?

hahahahah

THIS is going to be an experience, any way it plays.

ginny

babsNH
January 23, 2002 - 07:10 pm
It is interesting to me that so many people dislike The Corrections. I enjoyed it a great deal, I am trying to think why. One reason was it's difference, I took it as an exaggeration of real life. There were clearly some really hard-to-deal-with characters here, and it was hard to find any sympathy for any of them, and yet I did. It made me to want to read more of Mr. Franzen's work, although I have an impression of an arrogant young man, perhaps because of the way he handled the Oprah thing. I am sure I would not have like many authors whose work I find superior.

Ginny
January 24, 2002 - 06:30 am
All RIGHT, BabsNH!!

That does it, I can't stand this one more minute! Even THO I'm deep in Mr. Biswas for the February Book Club Online offering, and even tho I am in great danger of forgetting every word of Corrections, I can't stand it ONE MORE MINUTE, I begin it today. (After all I can tell you what happens in RR and I have not read IT for many a moon).

What a thoughtful post!

I'll have to take notes but I like your approach, if we dislike the characters, there is a reason, we can enjoy themes and issues and watching how the author handles whoever, I'll be back in here later today with the first report from the front.

Perhaps in this book, it might be advisable for the reader, since so many have been repulsed, to arm himself with the armor of the critic and look at the book in an analytical way. That's what I always do when threatened, and I hope I don't have to pull it out, can't WAIT, thank you for that, Babs!

&ginny&

SarahT
January 29, 2002 - 07:27 pm
The description of the book makes it seem really accessible. Is the writing hard to follow, BabsNH?

How old is Franzen?

babsNH
January 29, 2002 - 07:41 pm
No, the writing in this book is very easy to follow. Some may be taken aback by some of the scenes. I find that nothing much shocks me these days! Jonathan Franzen's picture looks to be a fairly young man, but one never knows when these pictures have been taken. I hope someone else beside me likes it! I don't want to be the only one, you know?

babsNH
January 29, 2002 - 07:47 pm
Sorry to post twice, but I just went and looked at Franzen's bio which was very short, but it did say he had been acclaimed as one of the best current authors under forty. I have been meaning to look into his other work. It says he has written extensively for Harper's and The New Yorker. He also has two other novels.

betty gregory
January 30, 2002 - 06:31 pm
As so many are writing of those who "don't like" Corrections, this would be a good place to repeat my reaction. The book "got to me," was "weighing me down." I didn't dislike the writing or the author. I disliked the response in me. I disliked these characters' burdens that went on and on and on. In one way of thinking about it, the author was successful in portraying the misery felt by his characters. I have no idea if this is a common reaction or if I'm an outlier, out there all by myself. The book caught me at a weird time, when I didn't want to hear a whole book of people tell me their problems.

Or, maybe it is the book itself, in that I'm reading about poor, miserable Mr. Biswas without a house, decade after decade of unmet needs.....and I can't get enough. I'm ready to fly south and help him find a house.

So, nevermind.

Betty

MmeW
February 9, 2002 - 02:50 pm
Hi, guys. I decided to check into the discussion to get the new URL and fur is flying already! I saw Franzen on the Today show fully expecting a supercilious prig, but actually he came across as kind of a stereotypical intellectual bumbler (ill at ease, not glib) out of touch with the mainstream. I think he was really bemused at the reaction to the Oprah flap and wished he had kept his mouth shut. So I lowered my hackles a bit.

Unaware of the discussion schedule, I began RR first (my version is HB) and have mixed reactions: his writing is great, but I haven’t been taken with the characters—they seem wooden. So I am going to put it down (actually put it down a week ago) and start The Corrections. I’m inspired because my son was just here and we spent the morning discussing all our dysfunctional families, mine, his dad’s, ours, etc. He finished with "I think all families have secrets and skeletons." Though, like Betty, I’m not sure I’m ready to be weighed down. I thought it was supposed to be funny?

babsNH
February 10, 2002 - 05:45 pm
MmeW - I thought it was funny, but everyone has a different sense of humor I suppose. I found the characters funny even though they were not particularly likeable. I found the plot lines funny even though they were often sordid. Maybe I will be odd man (woman) out, but I do have a strange sense of humor.

Ginny
February 10, 2002 - 05:53 pm
MmeW !

And Welcome!

We are delighted to see you here whether or not you liked RR, AND/OR Corrections, we will have a fine old time discussing the issues in the books and what, if any, parallel, they have.

Isn't Yates's writing splendid? Even tho you found the characters wooden, I hope you will complete it and be ready to RUMBLE here with these two....certainly milestones of publishing. Yates is not widely appreciated, perhaps, let's see how many of US can see something of worth in what he writes. I'm a sucker for books which epose longing or yearning and he's got that, in spades. Don't want to jump the gun on Sarah's Corrections, so will stifle!

So glad your'e here!

ginny

Ginny
February 10, 2002 - 06:59 pm
BabsNH, I have a VERY quirky sense of humor, you and I can compare our slants, this will be so fun, when do you leave?

ginny

YiLi Lin
February 12, 2002 - 04:46 pm
so i guess i have to square up my library fine...also the post that in humor asked do we need two months of this? i would urge us to consider. anyway hopefully i will be able to get one or both books through the library on time.

Ginny
February 12, 2002 - 05:14 pm
YiLi Lin!

I'm sorry, I did not see a former post of yours, so sorry to have missed it! Are you advocating 2 months on these books? We're scheduled at present to spend two weeks on each.

Oh you and library fines, too, huh? I once had an adult student whom I was trying to encourage to use the Library and allowed to take out a book on my card, and it went into arrears for years, and I was just too embarrassed to do anything about, it, BUT I DID!! And I wished I had done it a long time ago, so YES get that fine fixed! hahahah (says the woman with probably the longest standing LIbrary felony in history) (but they were very nice, I just paid for the book) and join us!

(We'll probably only take one book every two weeks tho?)

ginny

rambler
February 14, 2002 - 11:56 am
I just phoned the county library. They have 10 copies of The Corrections and, I guess because of the Oprah publicity, I am number 89 on the waiting list. So I should get the book around May.

Having been disappointed in previous purchases for these discussions, I'm not willing to buy another hardcover. Meanwhile, Revolutionary Road, an oldie, is available from the library tomorrow, and may also be available for purchase in paperback.

So, perhaps RR should be discussed first? Just a thought.

I read RR around the time it came out (mid or late '50s?), and several times since. Always admired Yates' writing, though I agree that his characters can be wooden. But I'd still like to be with April Wheeler--in Paris, Winnetka, wherever!

SarahT
February 14, 2002 - 11:57 am
I'm with you Rambler, both in discussing RR first, and in being 236th at the library!

rambler
February 14, 2002 - 11:59 am
Who is messing with the typefaces again? This doesn't happen on the other SN sites I visit!

Ginny
February 16, 2002 - 09:37 am
It'a always a very difficult thing to change schedules midstream and since there are so many of us involved here I will write all of you as soon as I have posted this to see if it will be OK with you to discuss RR the first two weeks and Corrections the second two weeks.

It's fine with me, I can discuss RR now! hahahahha

Love that book, and those of you who find them wooden, PLEASE don't forget that!!!

Writing you all, you may post here if you like your druthers for the schedule changes?

Thank you for your thoughtful approach to this,

ginny

Ginny
February 16, 2002 - 09:38 am
Rambler, again, I do not understand your question about the messing with the type faces, could you explain? If you are referring to my green text? I have set it that way myself?

Is that it??

ginny

rambler
February 16, 2002 - 03:43 pm
On my screen, at least, my post #48 looks OK, normal. My #46 and SarahT's #47 look goofy.

No, everything has changed again. What is the point of all this?

'Bye.

Give my love to April Wheeler.

And withhold it from the idiot who came up with Corrections, The. (I'm not necessarily referring to the book. I'm referring to the cyber-nerd notion that articles don't count as words.)

Ginny
February 17, 2002 - 06:24 am
Rambler, I'm sorry that you are experiencing some changes in the way posts display, there are several reasons this might have occurred, you can, not sure you know, set your own browser to always override whatever comes from any site and in Preferences you can also set SeniorNet to always appear a certain way and font.

The Corrections, The occurred because, unfortunately, the software insists upon alphabetizing by the first letter in the title and the Librarians among the Books staff felt it looked ignorant to see The and A and An leading off a list of titles, it was really in self defense.

We will miss you in the discussion.

ginny

rambler
February 18, 2002 - 06:08 pm
They don't seem to mind "A" and "An" in their own listings. To hell with it.

Ginny
February 20, 2002 - 10:24 am
Sorry, Rambler!

OK, so far everybody has responded that the change for RR to be taken first on March 1 in its entirety is fine, and it's a very easy read, and no problem even if you start now, so please, if you're reading this, do plan to join us.

We will need to look at themes since we're looking at the book as a whole the first two weeks, and motivations. Yates is a master at implication, let's see if we can figure out, together, what we think he's saying, I love RR, I'm going to be honest, just love it.

For years it sat enshrined, along with Marjorie Morninstar, in my youthful pantheon of the "Best Ever."

Then I reread it when we started here, and with my new knowledge of book analysis,....well....let's see when it comes up!

Hope to see you all here on March 1!!

ginny

SarahT
February 20, 2002 - 04:59 pm
I'm still having trouble with the Library, but somehow I'll get RR in time for the beginning of the discussion (even IT is hard to get for some reason). Doesn't Yates have a book of short stories out or something?

rambler
February 20, 2002 - 06:16 pm
SarahT: Yes! Yates had at least two volumes of short stories called "Eleven Kinds of Loneliness" (1962) and "Liars in Love" (1981). They and others were combined in "The Collected Stories of Richard Yates", Henry Holt & Company, 2001. It was reviewed in the April 17, 2001, New York Times.

"Revolutionary Road", though it dates from around 1961, should not be hard to get. Are you, perhaps, in a remote area?

(I see someone is playing games with typefaces again. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!)

SarahT
February 20, 2002 - 06:32 pm
Don't see anything wrong with typefaces.

Ginny
February 20, 2002 - 06:43 pm
It's haunted, Rambler, it's our own special ghost here, hahahaha And only a chosen few can see it! So you can consider self in that chosen few!

Rambler has sent a SUPER link which we'll get up in the heading asap, thank you so much!

Yes that new collection of short stories is huge, Sarah, I just had to have it because in addition to his more famous works as Rambler mentions above (that Eleven Kinds of Loneliness is superb) there are some previously I believe, unpublished Yates, something to treasure.

ginny

Ginny
February 26, 2002 - 11:32 am
Many thanks to Rambler for that super link in the heading to Yates's new collected short stories!

Last night before I dropped off to sleep I thought I'd begin RR again, and I read 39 pages effortlessly and hated to put it down, marveling at the power Yates has in his writing. I sure hope you all are planning to join us here, if you have not read Yates, you are in for a treat.

ginny

SarahT
February 27, 2002 - 05:23 pm
I started it this morning, and it is already captivating.

MmeW
February 27, 2002 - 06:29 pm
I am loving the book--just wish I had read it when it first came out (when I was plotting my own escape to Paris). It seems as if whole speeches in RR could have come out of my own mouth at that time! But I haven't finished yet....

Jo Meander
February 28, 2002 - 01:12 pm
Ginny, I was reading Corrections when the program changed! I now have a library copy of RR, and I'm on p. 60 or thereabouts. It's so '50's!

Ginny
February 28, 2002 - 01:37 pm
Jo, I'm so sorry, I hope you can catch up, it's the 60's to me? It's soo 60's. Maybe the late 50's, Eisenhower and the 50's? Levittown?

I have not read Corrections, was afraid it would taint the experience of RR, but will get to it later on next week, want to drown in RR for a while. Seecham and all.

I can't understand for the life of me what that CAR is doing on the cover of the book? CAR? CAR?

What does that mean? I have read RR about 30 times in my life, what does that tinted CAR have to do with anything??

Gosh this book reminds me of so many things.

Mme, I'm with you, almost everything Yates says rings a bell with me, obviously there are scenes I don't share but oh golly it almost seems sometimes that Yates is in my head or was in my head, I, too (since we're in warm up here I guess I can personally reminiscence) went to lunch with my father in the city and met the big boss at the office.

I, too, entered the tall building (in Philadelphia) and went up the elevator, there was no Oat Fields, but my father was the Director of Data Processing (the early IBM computers were just out then) and that was his field, speaking of production.

We went to Shrafts for lunch where the waiters, perhaps intelligent enough to recognize a child and her father's special occasion, treated him like royalty called him by name....yes, Revolutionary Estates, yes...I know this setting, I know this place, I know these people and what they wanted but what I see Yates saying is something quite different.

JO!! Welcome, you are always an asset any where you go, even with only 60 pages, we'll stress the first 60 till you catch up!

hahahaha

ginny

rambler
February 28, 2002 - 03:45 pm
Ginny: My copy does not have a car on the cover, but I am getting this strange, oversized type on my screen, some of which goes off my screen to the right so I cannot even see it. My library copy of the book has a man and woman on the cover (back to back), is dated 1961, and is called a first edition. Maybe I should steal it--it maybe valuable! I would like to make intelligent comments here, but can't see them on my screen.

I don't have these problems on any other Senior Net site. Something is very wrong.

Ginny
February 28, 2002 - 03:56 pm
Rambler, I have copied your comment and I'm going to ask the Tech Teams in the Books to have a look see and see if there is anything your comment brings to their minds, hold on!

ginny

rambler
February 28, 2002 - 04:00 pm
ginny:: Thank you. This, on my screen, is much bigger than usual. I had some comments about the book, but amid all the aggravation, I've forgotten them.

Ginny
February 28, 2002 - 04:06 pm


Rambler, is it the POSTING BOX where you type that your print runs off the right side or is it my message? Does my green message run off the right side?

Are you using Netscape or IE?

ginny

rambler
February 28, 2002 - 04:23 pm
It's the posting box. And it never happens on any other SN site. Nor do I get the weird italicized
print on any other SN site.

Re the book, I wanted to post: What are readers' comments regarding the John Keats quote: Alas! when passion is both meek and mild!

I cannot read my own posts here, because they strangely run off my screen.

Ginny
February 28, 2002 - 04:54 pm
Rambler, your comments lead me to believe you are using a version of Netscape? Just this afternoon the webmaster, as I wrote you, has made a correction, it IS all over SeniorNet if you post and the Netscape problem has been noted , it's possible he can do something about it, and it's possible that a correction may be made in Preferences for those using Netscape? He will let us all know.

Meanwhile, those of us in IE are ecstatic because for the first time we can SEE what we are typing, o joy o joy this is the first time I have been able to READ what I put in the posting box@!

I very much like your Keats quote and would like to begin with it in the morning we'll have, hopefully a new heading at that time as well, so everybody turn out bright and early (not TOO early) and let's ROLLLLLLLL

ginny

Jo Meander
February 28, 2002 - 05:29 pm
Ginny, didn't the automobile become even ore important after WWII with the advent of suburban-style living? People lived far away from stores, recreaction, and they built developments with no sidewalks. I think the car is there to suggest that type of environment.

SarahT
February 28, 2002 - 05:41 pm
Except the car is a 40s car, if you ask me. A pastel 50s atomic age deal would have been better, right?

Ginny
February 28, 2002 - 06:07 pm


Hopefully tomorrow we'll have the new heading up and you all can see the car, the CAR the CAR reminds me of my own childhood in the ....I thought it was the 40's but I believe JO is right and it was the early 50's, and late 40's, the post war era of prosperity, and people HAD cars and rode in cars which looked, as Sarah says like ....well, we're just going to have to get that heading up here and you car buffs tell us what we're looking at.

I asked my husband and he thought that car was from the 40's but he also remembers riding in them.

I remember (here she goes) running boards, and I remember cars which looked like this one but not in the 50's. The book was written in 1961, I believe, the year I graduated from high school, let me go get that heading!

ginny

Jo Meander
February 28, 2002 - 09:21 pm
I think it's a late '40's car, too. My dad drove a similar one in the '50's!

Ginny
March 1, 2002 - 05:52 am
Yes, Jo!! You're right! That must be why I remember them so well, people sure did drive them in the 50's, I've ridden in many of them, after all, in the 50's that would only have been a ten year old car!

But I agree with Sarah, the 50's, or was it the 60's with the FIN and the space age looking style, if somebody has time, please go find us something on cars of the 40s, 50s, and 60s.

The original book did not have a picture of a car on the cover, I am not sure what the publsher was thinking about, IS this so much a book of that era? OR??

This will be so fun and we have SOOO little time!!!




A bright good morning and welcome to ALL OF YOU on our first day of looking at Richard Yates’s Revolutionary Road!

First off have been asked to state here this Objective:

First, a few ground rules to get us up and running. We here are about YOUR opinion, and we want to hear it. There are no "right" or "wrong" "answers." You are entitled to your own feelings and opinion on the book, and if and you can support your theory with evidence from the book, you are entitled.

It does not matter whether you agree with somebody or disagree, we want all opinions and we want to hear them.

Please talk to the other people speaking up here, and let's get a super dialogue going.


I’ll put that in the heading, as well.




We have not looked at a book as a WHOLE in a long time. We only have two weeks to do it, too, then Sarah will take over and we’ll look at The Corrections and compare them, so this discussion will be different in many ways.

I have truly a MILLION ideas swirling about this book, but I think I’d like to hear from you, first.

I’d like to hear what struck you most here, what issues Yates brings up that struck YOU and what YOU would like to talk about.

Rambler has called our attention to the Keats quote and asked what it means.

Alas! When passion is both meek and wild!”—John Keats


What do you think that has that to do with this story at all?

Let’s hear from you , what struck YOU the most strongly about this book? Is there a pattern you see repeated in it and if so, what does it mean?

The floor is now open for your opinions!

ginny

Traude
March 1, 2002 - 07:36 am
The idea of pairing Revolutionary Road with The Corrections and of discussing both books as a whole is inspired . Led by our Dynamic Duo, Ginny and Sarah, the discussions will be scintillating, I predict.

I am trying to catch up and reading as fast as I can.

patwest
March 1, 2002 - 07:41 am
Charlie says, it is probably a '40 to '42 Chevy 2-dr sedan ... Might even be the first one after the war.

He's going to look in his photo album... He says the trunk lines didn't change much from '39 to '42. Then car production was stopped until '46. and it was difficult to buy a car until '49 or '50.

Ed Zivitz
March 1, 2002 - 10:44 am
I enjoyed RR and I'll save my comparative comments for later in the discussion.

I wonder how much of the "stirring" of the 60's (at least 1961)spilled over into the writing.

Vonnegut's blurb is both bloated and specious. There is and will only ever be one Great Gatsby,and to compare Yates to Fitzgerald,seems to me,to be a great injustice to S.F.

Yates' narrative certainly moves the story in compelling fashion,although I found the characters to be too one dimensional and I thought that April & Frank's children had no dimension at all

MmeW
March 1, 2002 - 12:58 pm
I agree about the car--I do think it symbolizes the move to surburbia, but the picture on the cover is misleading because it seems to me (non-expert) as being very old. We had a 49 Chevy (it had a slanted back and trunk, not humpy--these are technical terms, LOL) and I think it was more modern looking than that. However, we had that Chevy till '56 (moved up to a 3-toned Buick!) and people did tend to keep cars longer back then.

I place the setting in 1957 (and mainly because of the car, I was thinking early 50s) because Frank was 18 in the last spring of the war and now he is 30 (1945+12). I think the stirrings of the 60s were there in Kerouac and the Beat Generation all through the 50s (I just didn't become aware of them till 1957 the same year On the Road was published).

rambler
March 1, 2002 - 04:08 pm
Well, posting a message is a challenge, because it appears oversize and goes off my screen.
I'm told this is a Mac problem (I have a Mac).

Anyway, chapter 1 seems to be an exemplar (sorry) of the whole novel and some of the novel's chapters. Things start off looking hopeful, lovely, then all goes to hell. People who seem intelligent and savvy turn out to be sort of inept. Maybe they're trying, but they're not smart enough or motivated enough to succeed.

I can't say much more because I can't look up and review what I've said.

betty gregory
March 1, 2002 - 05:07 pm
Pure serendipity last week led to my reading a Saul Bellow article written about his experience of living in Paris after the war and, more specifically, about the wide spread yearning of Americans to get to Paris immediately after the war.

There was a feeling of hurry-up, gotta go now, Bellow said......to see if the new intellectual movements of pre-war Paris would take up where they left off. London was not included at all. It wasn't in any shape for visitors and was not the location of the pre-war movements. By the thousands, Americans moved to Paris from 1945 to 1955. Others dreamed of going and/or felt left out, thinking themselves unable to go.

I just finished the book 2 days ago and had so many reactions. I didn't really see too much of the 60s in the writing. Except for the references to the monster-size computers, which presaged the future (and here we are, folks), the bulk of the emotional setting felt like the 1950s to me. The yearning to go join other international thinkers in Paris has never really been seen as the roots of the turning inward rebellion of the 60s--------please fill me in if I'm misinformed about this. I think the late, late 50s and early 60s racial upheavals are seen as one major part of what we now refer to as "the 60s."

Maybe it doesn't matter that much, though I kept seeing/feeling the 1950s during the whole book.

Never have I ever read an author who could get the gender role of "man" more accurate, and often, with great compassion. There are a few authors of the last 25 years who have finally cracked the code and written with authority about everything female..... power issues, women socialized to value relationships and connections, rage issues, safety issues, etc.

So, how wonderful to read of Frank's jumble of self-conscious worry over measuring up to the impossible constraints put on men in our culture to be a "man." Yates got it right over and over without making any men in the book appear ridiculous. One thing I especially appreciated was the secret information given to the reader. Even when Frank screwed up, the reader still got to "witness" moments when he had an after-thought of tenderness, even if no one with Frank could see it.

Yates' details of sheer physical-ness of men, even while experienced as self-conscious movement, was absolutely incredible. I believe women experience similar awareness of physical movement, but differently, somehow. Yates emphasized the physical-ness of men in this book, however, and I don't know if I've ever, ever read something better, so clearly (even simply) expressed.

Maybe he does as good a job describing things about women in this book.......but I stayed aware of how rare, pitifully rare, are these simple descriptions of wholeness in men. That's the word that came to me about halfway through the book, wholeness. Yates gave us examples of physical movement and internal dialogue at moments when the world only saw Frank not expressing his true feelings. I promise to come back with quotes.

Hahahahahahaha.........and I don't even like Frank!!

Betty

rambler
March 1, 2002 - 05:58 pm
betty: Wow. That was one helluva post! Now, if I can get just my message box (is that what's it's called?) to show me my response. You are one bright and articulate lady. Thank you so much!

I don't like Frank much, either. He seems too much like me.

SarahT
March 1, 2002 - 07:51 pm
The writing is superb, and constantly startling. Yates can really pack a lot into a sentence:

After the failed play: "Anxious, round-eyed, two by two, they looked and moved as if a calm and orderly escape from this place had become the one great necessity of their lives; as if, in fact, they wouldn't be able to begin to live at all until they were out beyond the rumbling pink billows of exhaust and the crunching gravel of this parking lot, out where the black sky went up and up forever and there were hundreds of thousands of stars."

Yates does such a beautiful job of cramming all of life into that one sentence - from the small to the huge: from the gravel of the parking lot to the black sky and the hundreds of thousands of stars. From people leaving a theatre two by two to a whole town unsure if it could go on living if it stayed. The big and the small, all encapsulated together. And that transition from one to the other is always so deliciously surprising. Who would expect to think about whether a small theatre of people could go on with life as they were walking up the aisle, or about the hundreds of thousands of stars shining on the lowly, exhaust clouded parking lot?? I love that.

I was struck by Frank's transformation from a rejected child who even the fat boy named Krebs called a jerk, to a man who, in his 20s in the Village suddenly began to be admired: "Loose strands of his character -- the very traits that had kept him dreaming and lonely among schoolboys and later among soldiers -- these seemed suddenly to have coalesced into a substantial and attractive whole."

My question is - does this ever REALLY happen to people? I always assume you are what you have always been, with minor adjustments. Here, we have a radical shift.

I also agree with you rambler about how Yates uses the model of having things start out well, with hope and optimism, only to end badly. And yours, Betty, about the beauty in Yates' description of man. I think I told you many books ago that I almost always can picture scenes when I read, but that I almost never can picture people. Here, for once, I had an immediate picture of Frank in my mind. It happened as soon as Yates described him: "He was neat and solid, a few days less than thirty years old, with closely cut black hair and the kind of unemphatic good looks that an advertising photographer might use to portray the discerning customer of well-made but inexpensive merchandise (Why Pay More?)" I saw him then!

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 09:40 am
What a truly wonderful start to the discussion and how many and varied points you have raised, I had hoped for same and you have not disappointed!!

This discussion will be different in many ways and I want to approach it differently, too. I want to give my own opinions and I want to address yours. I hope you are willing to dialogue on your opinion, because that's why we're here, to have a conversation.

I think I'll put up in the heading all the various issues or points you see so far, and I think I'll take each of your points in a separate post. That will enable those folks who can't discuss 1000 topics in one post to isolate the ideas of others, and that will allow THEM to come back and say, but Ed, is there any character you see as NOT one dimensional?

I hope you will do that and I hope you will engage each other in dialogue here....now....on with the show.

(Oh please DO hold off your comparisons until we have had at least a few days discussion of The Corrections? It's not fair to The Corrections if we don't at least look at it alone in the third week for a bit?)

Welcome, Traude, we are very glad to see you here.

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 09:44 am


I have read all your posts carefully, marveling at all you see and we have yet to hear from others of you who may yet see other things. This, my 31+ reading of this book, once again startled me with some new insights (I had never noticed the man/ woman thing before, for instance)....

There are two things which really jump out at me, one is the style of speech that the author has Frank (don't you find his name deliciously incongruous?) use, and the other is the fact that most of the characters are playing a role.

The characterrs which are NOT playing a role thus stand out more prominently and I think it's for a reason.

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 09:57 am


Yates is a master short story writer, not known for his novels. In short stories, every word counts, and in this book he immediately throws us into the Laurel Players. We are in the company, we feel their hopes, their excitement, and we go right down the tubes with them too. That's good writing.

I noticed that Frank's speech is almost always preceeded by qualifiers like "Well...but.." and "No,...but..." and it's a pattern which is constant almost throughout the book, Frank is reactive and defensive in his need to be understood. I wonder why? I wonder what the Keats quote has to do with the way Frank presents himself to the world? Or who he was as a child? Sarah asked if he had changed? Has he?

April does not ever do this type of speech, unless I missed something when she was trying to convince him to go to Paris (did you find it ironic that the only "certifiably crazy " person in the story was the only one who noticed that they did not have to cancel their trip?

I think that Yates, the master of short story writing, the constructor of a brilliant tight plot here has done Frank's speech this way for a reason, and has shifted his patterns of speech over to Shep at the end for a reason. What could it be?




You know when you are in shock, or a stressful situation you seem "outside yourself" and dispassionately looking at your own thoughts and actions?

Quite a few of these characters do that all the time? Frank certainly does. In fact, towards the middle of the book he almost develops a split personality, you have Frank I doing something and Frank II watching and commenting on it, it's eerie.

Here's one of the hundreds, literallly hundreds of instances of this, I could not ever quote them all:

(page 143 paperback)

"Oh now, don't be silly," he tolld her, allowing his voice to grow heavy and rich with common sense..."


The characters who don't do this thus come off as more....what? sympathetic? Is April a sympathetic character?

I'll put some of this in the heaing, now on to your thoughts, which I want to take individually, please address any person you like here and let's get some good conversation going!~

ginny

Jo Meander
March 2, 2002 - 09:57 am
I finished the book last night and, for once, have read all the posts to date! Already I am impressed with the light you all are shedding on my reading experience! I was numb when I closed the book on the last page, had a hard time falling asleep. It was beautifully crafted and compelling (sounds like a blurb -- maybe it was!) , but I don't think the Fitzgerald comparison holds up, as Ed has already noted. It's still a remarkable book, though, and the descriptions are a large part of the reason, as Sarah and Betty have said. One that grabbed me was Frank's impression of the workaday crowd in Grand Central Station: How small and neat and comically serious the other men looked, with their gray-flecked crew cuts and their button-down collars and their brisk, little hurrying feet! There were endless desperate swarms of them, hurrying through the station and the streets, and an hour from now they would all be stilll. The waiting midtown office buildings would swallow them up and contain them, so that to stand in one tower looking out across the canyon to another would be to inspect a great silent insectarium displaying hundreds of tiny pink men in white shirts, forever shifting papers and frowning into telephones, acting out their passionate little dumb show under the supreme indifference of the rolling spring clouds. Like the lines Sarah quotes about the audience under the star-filled black sky, this part seems to suggest the triviality of human concerns. I think that's one of the themes: the smallness of our passions in the big picture.

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:02 am
Jo, we were posting together, the times are exactly the same, that almost never happens, what made you feel numb at the end of the book, do you think???

Will you and Ed expound on the Gatsby comparison, I 've not read Gatsby and have no idea what is being compared.

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:13 am
Ed, you spoke of characters as being "one dimensional." I've heard several people use the term "wooden" over the years.

What does that mean?

Are all the characters here one dimensional?

Are some not?

Do you think there is a reason why some are not and some are?

(This is not just directed at Ed. I hope you all will also say, but he brought it up).

Whose perspective do you all think this book is writen in?

Who is narrating this book?




I agree on the children, they are almost non dimensional!




Those of you who have made parallels to the 60's and 50's, please articulate these! I myself graduated from high school in '61, so I may not have a good perspective on it.

more....

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:16 am
Pat W, thank you for the wonderful information that car production was stopped in '46, and it was difficult to buy a car until '49 or '50. That explains a lot, and I appreciate it, that's why there were so many 40's cars around, then!

Thank your husband, Charlie, for that information!

ginny

Jo Meander
March 2, 2002 - 10:19 am
...I think April, as she is recovering from shock after the disastrous production of The Petrified Forest, is becoming aware of the triviality of human precoccupations. She shifts her attention to the Frank that she fell in love with, the profound, articulate young man without clear ambition. She thinks that an intellectual and culturally superior environment is the escape route from a wasted life (or lives), and she's determinded to find that escape for both of them.
Ginny, I think we were posting at the same time! Just read your stuff, and I think the certifiable lunatic is Yates's representation of repressed truth : if we acknowledge the banality and foolishness of our many of our values and choices, what woould we do then? What justification could we give ourselves and others for what we are doing? What disorder would be released upon our worlds from by truth-tellers like John Givings?

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:20 am
Mme, I remember those Buicks! The Roadmaster! A Three Holer!

I appreciate your being able to identify the TIME of this setting of this novel as '57. That helps a lot.

You mention Frank's age, one of the most startling things to me this time , in rereading this book was how YOUNG these children ARE?

When I read it in '61, I was 18. Frank seemed middle aged and Mrs. Givings seemed ancient and doddering.

Now I read it and Frank is a child (tho he has the mind of a 60 year old?!?) and Mrs. Givings is in the prime of life! hahahaha

Did anybody else have that shock?

I never read Kerouac, either, I see I need to finsih up my education with Gatsby and Kerouac

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:23 am
Whooo, well now we see why we are always glad to see Jo Meander in a discussion, this just blew me away, I'm clinging on the side of the house in a gale:


I think the certifiable lunatic is the Yates's representation of repressed truth : if we acknowledge the banality and foolishness of our many of our values and choices, what would we do then? What justification could we give ourselves and others for what we are doing? What disorder would be released upon our worlds from by truth-tellers like John Givings?


WOW!

UIp in the heading that goes too (I expect to have this heading finished in August of 3005. hahaahah)

April Wheeler, we need to look hard at the representation of April Wheeler....more anon....

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:34 am


Rambler, that's a very astute comment on the theme of Chapter I mimicking the entire book, things start out hopeful and it all goes in a handbasket.

So you see Yates here as a careful craftsman?

And you see people being revealed for all their faults despite their appearances?

Is any of the characters smart enough or motivated enough in your opinion?

Do you know I had to go back and reread the end of the book to find out what happened to Frank? I find that strange for some reason, he just kinda drifts off into oblivion and did he not get the children?

Sarah, I'm not sure Frank changed at all.

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:39 am
Betty, you get the shocking pink here! hahahaha

Thank you for that Bellow interview, I did NOT know that, another "sign of the times!:" about Paris, who knew?

50's 60's? I need to leave that to those of you who were aware of the times more than I was! I do remember our neighbors took in a Hungarian freedom fighter tho, a young man my own age who had driven a train filled with refugees thru a border to freedom, think what he must have thought of silly me.




I agree with you on the "man/ woman" slant in the writing, he's good , isn't he? Is this your first Yates?

When you mention the "secret information" we get on Frank's real feelings, what are we saying about the narrator of the book, I wonder?




Why don't you like Frank? Who of the characters do you like?

Wholeness goes up in the heading but to me, Frank is less than whole, and he knows it: he's playing a "whole" part??

??

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:47 am
Do you all like these differing colors or is it distracting?

Sarah, wonderful quote and THANK you for a quote actually using the word "whole!" Well done!!

Well let me ask YOU, did Frank really change, tho?

You wonder if people really change, I wonder if Frank really changed and what was so wrong with him in the first place anyway?

They do say a child's character is formed by 5, are we convinced that Frank is changed?

(Don't you love all this "find yourself" talk in the book, by the way? This was eons before "Thirty Something, " too.

ginny

Ginny
March 2, 2002 - 10:55 am
Jo, a wonderful quote showing how masterfully Yates writes, there is not one of us here he did not make feel those sentiments about our own relative place in The Four Million, so to speak, he's just good.

Many people say Yates is a "writer's writer," because some feel (this is mentioned as I said earlier, in the critical introduction to the new collection of his works) that nobody but somebody skilled in the craft could understand him. The writer of this introduction says Yates would have hated that designation, incidentally.

I don't think he's only for the cognoscenti, he's pretty straightforward and understandable by anybody, in my opinion.

But April, now....you mention April.

You said


...I think April, as she is recovering from shock after the disastrous production of The Petrified Forest, is becoming aware of the triviality of human precoccupations. She shifts her attention to the Frank that she fell in love with, the profound, articulate young man without clear ambition. She thinks that an intellectual and culturally superior environment is the escape route from a wasted life (or lives), and she's determinded to find that escape for both of them.


I think the character of April Wheeler is wonderfully and strangely portrayed. The way she is first presented, definitely from the 3rd person vantage point, we don't know her thoughts, she does not tell us her thoughts like Frank does, we have no clue of her background until almost at the end almost at her end when Yates in a stunning chilling tour de force introduces Dad and the white pony.

I don't think April wanted to go to Paris for Frank.

And that brings up an entire other session of man/ woman.....

ginny

rambler
March 2, 2002 - 11:34 am
I mentioned earlier that fiction rarely interests me, but RR is an exception. I bought it sometime in '61-'62, as soon as it came out in paperback. I agree that the setting is in the '50s. (Graduated Minneapolis Central High in 1950.)

I read the book several times long ago, but now I'm struggling to keep pace. Kitchen remodelling and doing income tax aren't helping. Good discussion, though. I'll try to check in when I have something to say.

Ed Zivitz
March 2, 2002 - 11:39 am
One dimensional characterization (wooden figures).

For me..the characters do not come to life,because I could find no depth. They seem to react only to external stimuli. Perhaps Yates is trying to show that this was the way life was in the 50's..shallow and self absorbed and concerned only with keeping up with the Joneses or feather bedding in your work or engaged in climbing the corporate ladder.

I don't think that any of the characters are narrating the story...The author is telling us a story,in the simplistic manner like reading a comic book.

The characters did not evoke any emotion in me other than to wonder what will happen next...although I don't think that there was any doubt about April's eventual action.

I found the book more interesting from a sociological aspect,because I felt that Yates raised some very interesting points about post war life (and not necessarily just in suburbia)

The portrayal of young married women was right on the money..Attempts to "find themselves" (like small theatre groups) or to establish their own independence (moving to Paris & being the breadwinner while their husbands "find theirselves").....(an idea that would be totally anathema to a returning veteran of WWII & perhaps Frank felt emasculated by such a thought)

One of the strongest social undercurrents that I felt was the plight of women BEFORE the birth control pill was available. April is a prototype 60's woman but she seems to be enslaved by what has happened to her...of course,Frank can also be cast as a villian..since he didn't take any responsibility to prevent the pregnancy.

I could be treading on quicksand here,but I think that Yates is making a social comment regarding birth control and abortion...would the narratve have been as compelling if April had had the baby & put it up for adoption? Then there might be no story.

Yates also presents a social problem regarding mental illness..especially the point about John trying to get Frank to find him a lawyer because he thinks he's been institutionalized against his will..

rambler
March 2, 2002 - 02:57 pm
The description of Jack Ordway as a "borderline alcoholic" seems strained. If he's worried about puking in the office, he's more than borderline. The same goes for Frank Wheeler. Takes one (like moi) to know one.

Frank's parting remark to Maureen Grube seems particularly crude: "Listen: you were swell. Take care, now." Even if she had been a prostitute, wouldn't a man of conscience have spoken words of more tenderness?

MmeW
March 2, 2002 - 04:58 pm
First of all, obviously (left-brained) me was partially wrong about the time: Yates says clearly that "the year was 1955, " so either he or I can’t do math, but that often happens to me: instead of enjoying the richness of the novel, I find petty discrepancies.

Ed, I think if April had had the baby and put it up for adoption, it would have been another story. April seemed to have no maternal illusions about the life inside her (nor about her other progeny--sort of like the children in soap operas who disappear into their bedrooms and emerge, or not, a few months later as delectable hunks or delicious babes). In that respect, is Yates a good portrayer of women? Or is maternity another Madison Avenue concept?

Ginny, I love your description of Frank I and Frank II, playing the role and dispassionately critiquing/adjusting his performance. To Frank, image is everything. I have never seen a man so absorbed with mirrors! Does he change? I think not. Towards the middle of the story, he finds a new persona (a reflection of "new manliness and maturity," his molars aching from his "grim-jawed" look), but it is just another role.

Ironic that RR begins with April playing a role, and playing it damned well until the bumbling director replaces the sick leading man, but it's Frank who really role-plays in the novel. Rambler was right: the Laurel players seem an encapsulated version of the whole book, underscored by the director's speech "brains without purpose, noise without sound, shape without substance," reprised by Shep in his last soliloquy (epilogue by Mrs. Givings). Or is everyone playing a role and we just see more of Frank’s interior monologue.

Benava
March 2, 2002 - 05:27 pm
Is this supposed to be the "station car" that Frank used when he took the train in to NY?

babsNH
March 2, 2002 - 06:43 pm
I posted earlier this morning, but I guess it did not get through. I finished RR early this morning. I wish that I had read it much earlier in time before I read The Corrections or other books dealing with a similar issue. I especially am reminded of the movie "American Beauty", did anyone see it? I think maybe this book or its characters seem "wooden" is because of the fifties! The cookie cutter generation? It is hard not to compare it with more recently written novels in the light of how much more open and sometimes crass the language of everyday life is now compared to then. Tha t is why I wish I had read it earlier. I am sure it would have made a bigger impression on me then than now. Having said all that, I did enjoy it, and thought his (Yates) insights were very clearly portrayed.

betty gregory
March 2, 2002 - 08:42 pm
Not the wholeness of Frank, a wholeness of description, including inner dialogue. Reminds me of the contemporary topic of whether or not men have feelings. Of course men have feelings; it's only a question of IF they are taught to express them and how welcoming the world is when they do. Yates gives us whole pictures.

Looking at April Wheeler and Paris takes a while. If she went to Paris, she believed she could only do this as Mrs. Wheeler, given women's place post WWII. The irony to me is that Paris probably would have received her as April, married, divorced, or separated.

At first glance, April seemed able to break out of the Post-WWII constraints on women, in that she boldly proposed to be the sole financial supporter of Frank and the children in Paris. My guess is this "independent" idea felt possible to propose because Frank's role in Paris would still be measured as more independent, more important than hers.......freedom to explore his intellectual gifts. The cover-up.......she could say she's working to "support" his goals and only temporarily. Many women who continued to work outside the home, as they had done during the war, had to be ready to say why. The wholescale push, including federal money for magazine and radio ads, to get women back into the homes after the war, left those who continued to work on the defensive. You had to explain that your husband was killed in the war or that he was badly injured. Bolder women explained that their children were already school age and that, as mothers, they only worked until 3 PM, the end of the school day.

But I wrote, "at first glance," April wanted to go to Paris. I didn't believe it after she became pregnant. Or, I didn't believe she was capable of doing something to get there. More irony, of course. What did she think these non-traditional, free-thinking people in Paris were all about??

Roles. Roles. No wonder "wooden" and "one-dimentional" are tempting.

I'll venture that Frank had been playing at "the most interesting person I've ever met" role since April spoke the words. April continued to play the role of believer-in-Frank for a while after she stopped believing the words. In a way, their relationship was based on this contract.......that he was interesting and that she believed in him.

Betty

Jo Meander
March 2, 2002 - 08:46 pm
I think Frank qualifies as "the central intelligence" of the novel: he's not the narrator, but through his thoughts we experience most of the events. He is the main character, and his actions and reactions shape the story for us. Toward the end, we get into the mind of Shep, and I think that was important too. We needed to see what was happening to Frank from outside, and Shep's experiences with April and with Frank provide an important counterpoint to Frank's own reactions.


What kind of a person is aware of how his jaw looks when he tenses his facial muscles, etc.? Frank is so self-absorbed that it makes me wonder how he ever managed to concentrate on anything else. I think if someone is that self-conscious it's at least partly becaus he's still unformed protplasm -- a kid! He isn't comfortable with himself. He has never matured into his roles as father, husband, breadwinner. He doesn't finish his tasks at work and when he moves at the end the new owners have to rip out those steps he left incompleted. He seems to be talented, able to come up with a great clutch performance on those pamphlets or brochures or whatever they were for the client who had been waiting forever for the first ones to be completed. But not a grownup.
The children in the story are foils for the inept adults who are clearly unable to devote much attention to them. Even Shep is faintly nauseated by the sight of his four little boys watching TV in their pajamas! A ggod night for April and Frank's little ones is one when they are igmored and shooed off to bed pretty early, because there is no fighting going on in the other room -- just murmured conversation.
Ginny,I think you mean April wanted to go to Paris for herself, and I agree, but didn't she want to go for Frank,too?

Jo Meander
March 2, 2002 - 08:54 pm
Betty, I enjoyed your comment:: "Looking at April Wheeler and Paris takes a while. If she went to Paris, she believed she could only do this as Mrs. Wheeler, given women's place post WWII. The irony to me is that Paris probably would have received her as April, married, divorced, or separated."
WOW! I wish I'd gone to Paris!

MmeW
March 3, 2002 - 12:43 am
I don’t necessarily think that April's going to Paris (or failure to go to Paris) had anything to do with women’s roles at the time--whether they should work or not work--there were women working everywhere, certainly in New York and Paris.

I think April lacked the courage to go to Paris alone--she needed Frank’s moral support if nothing else. And, more importantly, she needed a reason to go. Because she had no real ambitions for herself, she would seek identity or validity through Frank’s future artistic or high-flown accomplishments (Mrs. Famous Author or some such), attributing to him aspirations that he really didn’t have, thus drawing him into her plan. (Remember that her "most interesting man" claim forced him into that role, which in turn....) Frank's "finding himself" was an important motivation for the move to Paris, no less so because it cast April in an unselfish and self-sacrificing light.

The fly in the ointment is that her death prevents us from ever knowing if she would have eventually had the courage to go it alone. Maybe she would have, considering her clarity of vision at the end.

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 07:55 am
Good heavens, just when you thought a discussion could not get any better, it exceeds even my loftiest goals.




First off, EVERYBODY WELCOME Benava! Welcome! Welcome to our discussion here and SeniorNet's Books & Literature sections! We are delighted to have you and especially because of your "station car" remark.

Yeah, yes yes, the "station car," how did I miss that? The hallmark of suburbia, the "station car." If you live IN the city you don't NEED a "station car," do you? Somebody, apparently the publisher, thinks this is a statement, thank you for that.

Please feel free to add more thoughts, we welcome you here!




Whooo, Ed, whooooo.

They seem to react only to external stimuli. So you agree Frank is reactive but you say ALL of them are? Is April?

Perhaps Yates is trying to show that this was the way life was in the 50's..shallow and self absorbed and concerned only with keeping up with the Joneses or feather bedding in your work or engaged in climbing the corporate ladder.

Wow. Wow. IS that the way the 50's were? Shallow and self absorbed? Is that what the 60's fought against? How bad IS it to want your own house and lot in the suburbs?

Do you all remember the movie The Pawnbroker? Do you remember how it began? Zooming over identical suburban back yards before centering on one man's grill?

Can those in the 50's be blamed for wanting their own little acre?

I felt that Yates raised some very interesting points about post war life (and not necessarily just in suburbia)

Can you say what you think these were?

.....(an idea that would be totally anathema to a returning veteran of WWII & perhaps Frank felt emasculated by such a thought)

I noticed a sort of reluctance on Frank's part but did not quite understand why, the emasculated thing certainly rings true, why should she support him? After all HE is not the one trying to "find himself," is he? He already says he knows who HE is, she is the one, right? She's the one in Little Theater?

I think that Yates is making a social comment regarding birth control and abortion.. would the narratve have been as compelling if April had had the baby & put it up for adoption? Then there might be no story.

Mme and Ed, why not? Why no story?

Why can't they go to Paris and HE work?

??

Couples in the suburbs did not PUT babies up for adoption if they were married, in the 50's, did they? I don't think so?

That was not an option for the story, so what are we saying the story IS?

more....

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 08:36 am
I realize that my method of response here is off putting? I realize it's a detriment to conversation?

I rely upon YOU to converse with each other? I am unwillling to let one morsel of your truly insightful posts go unanswered and have hit on this method of response but I depend upon YOU all to talk to EACH OTHER?

Please do?




Rambler, are you saying you identify Frank Wheeler as an alcoholic? I had not noticed that, and I agtee the "borderline" seems a bit weak for a man who needs everybody else to get him thru the work day.

I also agree with you on the heartlessness of Frank's remark to Maureen, I also paused over that, and it came at a particularly heartless moment, when she had met him at the door provocatively, what a devastating thing that must have been for her. THAT, at least, shows something of his character, would we say he's a user?




MmeW , you amaze me! " Ironic that RR begins with April playing a role," and reprised by Shep in his last soliloquy (epilogue by Mrs. Givings).

Brilliant!

Ahhh, what a great point. about what Yates has done, the care with which he has presented what looks to most people ...who said , I think Ed did, a simple almost cartoonish style??

But the sum and substance and structure of what's being said is a long way from any cartoon I ever read unless it's Maus?

April plays a role and fails, Frank plays a role and fails, Mrs. Givings plays a role (as mother) and fails, and whose fault are all these failures?

??

Here again you noticed something I did not?

To Frank, image is everything. I have never seen a man so absorbed with mirrors!I

IS he absorbed with mirrors? Do mirrors play a large part in this? If so, I missed almost every reference, super close reading? Where are you seeing a lot of mirrors, can you cite some?

I would like to see them again,

Is Yates a good portrayer of women?

OUTSTANDING question, just outstanding, let's all give this a try!

I would say offhand his women are more manlike than his men are?

ginny

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 08:45 am
Ed, why would a WWII veteran not want to go to Paris, can you explain?

ginny

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 09:02 am


Is that another joke or irony? Is the song April in Paris older than the book? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mme, you're hard on our April!

attributing to him aspirations that he really didn’t have, thus drawing him into her plan

think April lacked the courage to go to Paris alone--she needed Frank’s moral support if nothing else.

Frank's "finding himself" was an important motivation for the move to Paris, no less so because it cast April in an unselfish and self-sacrificing light.

And as much as I hate to admit it, because I feel more sorry for April Wheeler, I feel more compassion for the little girl whose Daddy had only a plastic horse from a bottle of booze (again) for her than I do any other character in the book, I agree with you? She's the most stoic, SHE'S the one who keeps trying, NOT Frank, he's playing, he's Narcissus with his mirrors and....

JO on his incompleted projects, his stuff at work, his steps at home, he CAN come thru when somebody pushes him but other than that he just shifts files, but who is he fooling? When real promotion beckons, he jumps, doesn't he? Like a rabbit he jumps?

Jo , you asked,

Ginny,I think you mean April wanted to go to Paris for herself, and I agree, but didn't she want to go for Frank,too?


I'm not sure she did.

The children in the story are foils for the inept adults who are clearly unable to devote much attention to them. Wonderful point, JO, and on the Shep nauseated thing, that startled me, too. Shep is another complicated character, from a different background than Frank and very well delineated at the last, I think, Shep steps in to fill Frank's shoes, in a way, doesn't he? He's playing too, at being middle class, from the other side of the coin.


What kind of a person is aware of how his jaw looks when he tenses his facial muscles, etc.?

What a wonderful question! What kind of person, indeed!!

Narcissus was and we know what happened to him while looking in the mirror.

Thank you, Jo, for identifying Frank as the " central intelligence" of the novel: he's not the narrator, but through his thoughts we experience most of the events," and explaining WHY we need Shep at the end , great POV!




Betty, I'll correct the "wholeness" in the heading, thanks, loved this you said,

I'll venture that Frank had been playing at "the most interesting person I've ever met" role since April spoke the words. April continued to play the role of believer-in-Frank for a while after she stopped believing the words. In a way, their relationship was based on this contract.......that he was interesting and that she believed in him.


In a way, their relationship was based on this contract.......that he was interesting and that she believed in him.

So, they are trying to live up to the expectations of the other, then? So they are not totally self absorbed? In this one thing, their marriage, they have allowed each other to trust a little bit and be who they are and we can see the result?

Personally I thought Frank, despite his desire to say the right thing after the play, definitely struck out with his remarks, they were not intended to bolster HER up but to keep himself from failing. Poor April whose only contact with a father figure was Daddy and the white horse.




Which is the strongest character in the book, do you all think, and why?

ginny

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 09:17 am
BabsNH (so you haven't left yet, I'm so glad to see you!) That's one reason I did not want to read The Corrections while reading RR, I wanted RR to stand out, I'm sorry you lost your post.

Yes, I saw American Beauty, what about that parallels this book, do you think?

You make an interesting point about the "cookie cutter" generation of the 50's.

Do you feel that this book is dated when you say you wish you had read it earlier? Could it, do you think, be written today?

About people today?

ginny

babsNH
March 3, 2002 - 10:21 am
First, let me say that I must be a more observant reader than I thought I was! The station car had me stumped for awhile, I kept thinking "did he mean station wagon?" Then when you all questioned the picture on the cover, it dawned on me that must have been the station car! My husband says it is a late 40's Pontiac or Olds. Also the mirrors. Oh yes, Frank was always looking at his reflection in everything, especially at his jaw. He was always trying to determine if it looked masculine enough, or slack-faced, as he really saw himself. About American Beauty, I felt the same dark, impending tragedy that I felt about that movie due to the false, put your smile on, lifestyle of the burbs. Being a country gal myself, that may sound disdainful, and I mean no ill will to anyone who grew up in or lives in the suburbs. Believe me, small towns can be just as destructive, and I am sure not all suburbanites are malajusted! I think I meant, about the time period, that the book, or maybe it is just the dialogue, sounds dated. Certainly the ideas, the theme of the story is universal and not time related. I did not, however, find any humor in this story, did anyone else here?

Ed Zivitz
March 3, 2002 - 01:30 pm
Did anyone get the feeling that Frank was relieved when April died?

Did anyone get the feeling that Mrs Givings was relieved because John will probably be an institution for the rest of his life.

How many people turn off their hearing aids to shut out the rest of the world?

I was considering what I just posted above and I think that Yates has exposed a raw nerve of human emotion that is difficult to deal with. A large number of novels about families usually have some kind of Epiphany and often Redemption.Does any character in RR find redemptiom?

MmeW
March 3, 2002 - 02:00 pm
3/2/02 Mirrors--Ginny, ya want it, ya got it. After the play April is removing her makeup, and Frank "looked at himself in the mirror, tightening his jaw and turning his head a little to one side to give it a leaner, more commanding look, the face he had given himself in mirrors since boyhood…" (14 HB) With his father at work, "Frank’s eyes kept wandering from the machines to his own reflection in the plate glass. He thought he looked surprisingly dignified in his new suit…." (71) In the height of "joyous derangement" over the decision to go to Paris, during one of the evening discussions, "catching sight of his walking reflection in the black picture window, [Frank] had to admit that his appearance was not yet as accomplished as hers… but sometimes late at night … when he hunched his shoulders and set his jaw …he could glare at the window and see the brave beginnings of a personage." (127) This was a nightly occurrence. About speaking French, IF "he’d looked at the window at that moment he would have seen the picture of a frightened liar." (131)

The evening after his meeting with Pollock, after April tells him she’s pregnant, he washes his hands, "noticing that his face in the mirror looked ruddier and better than he’s seen it look in months. … And there was a new maturity and manliness in the kindly, resolute face that nodded back at him in the mirror." (208) "When he lit a cigarette in the dark, he was careful to arrange his features in a virile frown before striking and cupping the flame (he knew, from having practiced this at the mirror of a blacked-out bathroom years ago, that it made a swift, intensely dramatic portrait)." (219) Before John Givings’ visit, Frank tries his cuffs several ways, then "crouching at the mirror of April’s dressing table, he used her hand mirror to check the way the collar looked … and, in profile, … his tightening jaw muscle." (275)

And finally, the fact that Frank looks to other people constantly to mirror who he is; i.e., the women in Paris "whose eyes could sum him up and dismiss him in less than a second."

Jo Meander
March 3, 2002 - 02:13 pm
Oh, Yes MmeW, and earlier you said, "...importantly, she needed a reason to go. Because she had no real ambitions for herself, she would seek identity or validity through Frank’s future artistic or high-flown accomplishments (Mrs. Famous Author or some such), attributing to him aspirations that he really didn’t have, thus drawing him into her plan. (Remember that her "most interesting man" claim forced him into that role, which in turn....) Frank's "finding himself" was an important motivation for the move to Paris, no less so because it cast April in an unselfish and self-sacrificing light. ,"
... all of which I agree with, except I think she knew that he knew her plan wasn't entirely unselfish. They talked and talked and talked about it, she had just had that dismal experience with the Laurel Players, he was smart enough to know that the move was what she wanted for herself as well as for him, I think.
He is a narcissist (sp?), and April has continued to make him feel extraordinary, so very important, a being to be nurtured and treasured. He does try a t first to be more realistic, when he says he really mightn't amount to much, anyway, but she prevails with her view of him. As you have so effectivly established, how could he resist that view?
Ed, no,I don't think he's relieved when she's dead. I think all the self-importance is gone, and he's a long way, as the book ends, from having any reason for feeling optimistic about his own future. He's like a shadow of himself, the way Shep (I think) describes him. I agree about Mrs. Givings, though. She's good at her other jobs -- real estate, refinishing pieces of furniture, but evidently not comfortable with her parenting role. If John had been a strong, successful character, she probably would have indulged him at least as much as she does that puppy! Few of us handle weaknesses or "differences" in our offspring very well. The real estate test has to be a cinch by comparison!

Jo Meander
March 3, 2002 - 02:22 pm
"April plays a role and fails, Frank plays a role and fails, Mrs. Givings plays a role (as mother) and fails, and whose fault are all these failures? " Ginny, isn't it at least partly because they were playing the roles and not living them ? Tthey were unable to live those roles. Too many preoccupations in each case to make them effective parents, mates?
Strongest character? Shep, I think, based especially on his observations of his wife at the conclusion. He's the only one who has grown, benefitted in some observable way. Poor April was strong for a long time in the way she worked around her personal sorrows.

Ginny
March 3, 2002 - 03:35 pm
I'm just dashing in to announce that our wonderful Jane of the Books Tech Teams has prepared for us three HTML pages:

  • Issues and Topics Identified in Revolutionary Road ,

  • Issues and Topics Identified in The Corrections (now blank) and

  • Questions From Our Readers (also blank).

    I thought it would be easier for us to compare issues if we had a list of those you have identified.

    I am now going to remove the issues you have identified from the For Your Consideration in the main heading above and substitute the questions you have asked of us all today, please watch the For Your Consideration space above for more developments!

    LOVE your posts, keep em coming, back later!!

    ginny
  • MmeW
    March 3, 2002 - 04:29 pm
    April in Paris was a 1952 Doris Day/Ray Bolger (!) movie, and she does sing the song, but whether it existed before the movie, I don’t know.

    I did not mean to be so harsh on April--it’s just that without a focus for her inchoate yearnings, she decided that Frank’s finding himself would be the goal--I mean, you can’t just take off with no goal in mind. When Frank calls her idea "sweet," she protests that she is not "making any big altruistic sacrifice," and she isn’t, for the escape to Paris will get her out of the rut, too. (Jo, I guess I’m reversing my previous position; however to the eyes of the world, her proposal would seem selfless.) Unlike Frank, I think April is truly searching for a way out in the best way she can, perhaps knowing all the time that it does not exist. And she evolves into quite a brave and perceptive woman.

    (I guess I am partially projecting, for when I first went to Paris in '65 I was supposed to go with a friend, but I "knew" she was going to back out, so I went ahead and purchased my ship (!) tickets, hoping that I wouldn't chicken out when she "deserted" me. We all play little mind games.)

    Ed, re Frank’s relief. I think Frank was relieved when April was pregnant the first time and the last, for it meant he didn’t have to make any unsettling decisions--a good excuse to stay put.

    I love this rationale Frank gave his friend Sam after telling him April was "knocked up"(how touching is that?): "… meanwhile I want to retain my own identity. Therefore the thing I’m most anxious to avoid is any kind of work that can be considered ‘interesting’ in its own right. I want something that can’t possibly touch me." If he were pursuing something (writing, for example) on his own time, that would make sense, but identity is often associated with jobs ("she's a teacher) and how could Frank not want to be interesting? Fear of failure?

    Ginny: "So, they are trying to live up to the expectations of the other, then? So they are not totally self absorbed? In this one thing, their marriage, they have allowed each other to trust a little bit and be who they are and we can see the result?" I don’t think so at all; I think they have been deluding themselves from the beginning, and so does April the night before her death: "…there’s never been anything but contempt and distrust and a terrible sickly dependence on each other’s weakness…." Wow! That line really hit me!

    Ginny: "His women are more manlike." Perhaps I have an overblown sense of the importance and strength of women, but I don’t understand this comment. Is manlike good and womanlike bad? I think women, in general, are more perceptive, more "spatial" (able to see the big picture) in their outlook, and in that sense superior to men.

    Ginny: "he can come thru when somebody pushes him." The only time I can think of when he "came through" was the day he got so much accomplished because he was caught up in the "joyous derangement" of thoughts of quitting (before it got too close and might become threatening reality) and going to Paris. He even pitched the "Real Goodies" in file 13.

    I don’t think the names are accidental. April in Paris (not), Frank (not), Mrs. Givings (not), Oat Fields chewing his cud, Shep Campbell the sheepdog--OK, so I’m reaching…

    Is Frank playing yet another role at the end--the grieving widower? Shep describes manners that I can just imagine Frank practicing in the mirror: "arranging the crease of his pants … brushing little flecks of ash off his lap and holding his drink with his pinkie hooked around underneath the glass." And how ironic that Frank is seeing an analyst, after protesting for weeks that April’s unhappiness was "her problem" and that all she needed was an analyst. Frank is working through his relationship with his father (or lack thereof). What does Yates think of analysis (I think not much). Is the analyst a substitute for April or another mirror?

    Cases of echoes, or the novel framed: April’s mortifying story of unexpected menstrual flow early on and the flow that kills her, April’s planned first abortion and Frank dissuading her, foreshadowing the last situation, the white plastic horse among her treasured things at the beginning and the crushing story of its origin at end.

    Frank’s "humiliating" remembrances of working with his father, and then his treating his son and daughter the same way (with incredible foot-cutting-off rationalization). Such craftsmanship--it amazing to realize exactly how intricate this novel is.

    Emblematic of Frank’s lack of purpose is the unfinished path underscored by Mrs. Givings at the very end.

    Ed, your comment about the hearing aid makes me think of the theme of running away. Anybody else?

    Can you believe when I started this novel, I thought, "I won’t have anything to say about this," and now I can’t shut up.

    rambler
    March 3, 2002 - 05:30 pm
    Let the record show that MmeW first came up with April in Paris, 'way back in #106. I thought that was very neat, sharp, witty.

    MmeW
    March 3, 2002 - 07:40 pm
    Thanks, Rambler! Your post on the first chapter is what got me thinking about the structure. And I too thought Frank was like me, but the closer I look at him, I don’t think so (I hope not); I thought about April, but she may be way more courageous. I certainly don't dream about Paris with Frank, but I could with April (not the same way, I'm sure). What fun to watch those wings unfurl.

    From one Mac user to another, I usually write my post on Word and copy it into the little box--otherwise, it would be too daunting a task And I too find the huge colored print hard to follow. Have yet to start the IRS….

    Ed: sign of relief from Frank when April reveals her pregnancy: "The pressure was off; life had come mercifully back to normal." (207 HB) She’s pregnant, so the pressure is off Frank (to live up to his big talk).

    Jo: I agree--Shep has come to terms with himself since his crisis in Arizona. So why do he and Milly defer so to the Wheelers? About the Log Cabin: "The Campbells had looked from one to the other of their faces with uncertain smiles, ready to hate it or love it or espouse whatever opinion of it might please the Wheelers most." Taken in by the facade?

    Jo Meander
    March 3, 2002 - 11:13 pm
    MmeW -- great stuff on structure! THis book is provocative, isn't it? I wonder if someone half my age reading it now would find it as stimulating. i want to find out! I
    I thinkthe Campbells weren't ready to see themselves "in the same league" with the confident, self-satisfied(!) Wheelers when they were deferring to that facade, waiting to let them take the lead. At the end, it's a different story for Shep, but Milly may never get to that place with him.

    betty gregory
    March 4, 2002 - 05:01 am
    What a terrific discussion.

    See what good things happen when someone responds to what I write....with a question or disagreement or comment. I get to see how my comments are perceived and have a second chance to make something clear (hopefully).

    MmeW, you wrote,


    I don’t necessarily think that April's going to Paris (or failure to go to Paris) had anything to do with women’s roles at the time--whether they should work or not work--there were women working everywhere, certainly in New York and Paris.

    I think April lacked the courage to go to Paris alone--she needed Frank’s moral support if nothing else. And, more importantly, she needed a reason to go. Because she had no real ambitions for herself, she would seek identity or validity through Frank’s future artistic or high-flown accomplishments (Mrs. Famous Author or some such), attributing to him aspirations that he really didn’t have, thus drawing him into her plan. (Remember that her "most interesting man" claim forced him into that role, which in turn....) Frank's "finding himself" was an important motivation for the move to Paris, no less so because it cast April in an unselfish and self-sacrificing light.

    I meant for the power of entrenched gender roles at the time to color more than whether April went to Paris, or not. I meant to convey that an understood premise of the story is that the focus is on Frank and his needs, that his need to "find himself" intellectually and April's offer to be supportive in this venture......fit the gender roles of the time. April's proposed self-sacrifice you mentioned and the vicarious fulfillment through a "Mrs. Famous Author" type identity that you mentioned are other good examples of how gender applies.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Ginny, when you replied to my "contract" thought, I realized I intended something slightly different. I had written that Frank and April's relationship could be based on a contract......that he remains "interesting" and that she believes in him. I should have written that their relationship was based on his continuing to act the part (role) of "interesting person," and that she continue to act as if she believed in him. In the 1950s, men were still thought of as intellectually superior to women and women still supplied much emotional support to men, so this couple embodied the average couple.

    A key passage explains how she sees him.....she's explaining why he should go to Paris......


    "It's got nothing to do with definite, measurable talents---it's your very essence that's being stifled here. It's what you are that is being denied and denied and denied in this kind of life."

    "And what's that?" For the first time, he allowed himself to look at her.

    "Oh, don't you know?........."Don't you know? You're the most valuable and wonderful thing in the world. You're a man.

    "And of all the capitulations in his life, this was one that seemed most like a victory. Never before had elation welled more powerfully inside him; never had beauty grown more purely out of truth; never in taking his wife had he triumphed more completely over time and space.......He had taken command of the universe because he was a man, and because the marvelous creature who opened and moved for him, tender and strong, was a woman."

    That quote is from the 2 pages just before Part 2 begins.

    April's identification of what is important about him affects Frank deeply. From this point in the book, he is less anxious about how people see him and more certain of himself. He is happier.....
    "There now began a time of such joyous derangement, of such exultant carelessness, that Frank Wheeler could never afterwards remember how long it lasted."

    Betty

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 07:42 am
    Hi, have major plumbing crisis this morning, hope to get back on after lunch, I think your comments are wonderful and hope you all will address the million and one super questions and topics you all have brought up, now in one of the boxes above in the heading as well as the posts, do "carry on..." I know you will hahahaahaha

    Also please look in the heading for two spectacular new illustrations, sent to us by Jo Meander, thanks so much, Jo, the '57 Chevy Dance

    You will have to wait a bit for both illustrations to begin moving, both of them move, tho. Together they are more than 100K which is huge, so just go get a cuppa and return and watch the show!

    Here's the text that came with it, I apologize that I can't send the music too, it was "far out!" ahahahah

    Those of you too young to remember the 50's and 60's, (and yes, there are several of us here too young) marvel at what we thought life was like then.



    Remember when......?

    Click here to hear Rock Around the Clock by Bill Haley and the Comets: 1955


    REMEMBER....

    When the worst thing you could do at school was smoke in the bathrooms, flunk a test or chew gum. And the banquets were in the cafeteria and we danced to a juke box later, and all the girls wore fluffy pastel gowns and the boys wore suits for the first time and we were allowed to stay out till 12 p.m.

    When a '57 Chevy was everyone's dream car. . . to cruise, peel out, lay rubber and watch drag races, and people went steady and girls wore a class ring with an inch of wrapped dental floss or yarn coated with pastel frost nail polish so it would fit her finger.

    And no one ever asked where the car keys were 'cause they were always in the car, in the ignition, and the doors were never locked. And you got in big trouble if you accidentally locked the doors at home, since no one ever had a key.

    Remember lying on your back on the grass with your friends and saying things like "That cloud looks like a..."

    And playing baseball with no adults to help kids with the rules of the game. Back then, baseball was not a psychological group learning experience-it was a game.

    Remember when stuff from the store came without safety caps and hermetic seals 'cause no one had yet tried to poison a perfect stranger.

    And...with all our progress...don't you just wish...just once...you could slip back in time and savor the slower pace...and share it with the children of the 80's and 90's...

    So send this on to someone who can still remember Nancy Drew, The Hardy Boys, Laurel & Hardy, Howdy Doody and The Peanut Gallery, The Lone Ranger, The Shadow Knows, Nellie Belle, Roy and Dale, Trigger and Buttermilk as well as the sound of a real mower on Saturday morning, and summers filled with bike rides, playing in cowboy land, baseball games, bowling and visits to the pool...and eating Kool-Aid powder with sugar.

    When being sent to the principal's office was nothing compared to the fate that awaited a misbehaving student at home.

    Basically, we were in fear for our lives, but it wasn't because of drive by shootings,drugs, gangs,etc.

    Our parents and grandparents were a much bigger threat! But we all survived because their love was greater than the threat.

    Didn't that feel good, just to go back and say, Yeah, I remember that!









    And was it really that long ago?





    Back after lunch, I sure hope.

    ginny







    ___________________________

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 11:24 am
    Well looks like the plumber will be here in the morning, meanwhile I do have a mess, but hey!!

    You guys are like fireworks here, it's quite exciting, to me!

    First off, Rambler, thanks for the head's up on Mme's post 106, I had not noticed that, and when you said that I reread the post and STILL did not see a reference to the song! Then Mme said thanks and I thought, Anderson, you've lost it or it's a full moon, or both, and read it AGAIN, and VOILA!! The subject line says April in Paris!! So sorry to have missed attributing that, my own post on the song now reads "April in Paris: First brought up by Mme in Post # 106" so I hope the record is cleared! hahahaha

    We here in the Books are not about stealing credit from anybody, when the ideas flow fast and furious, please, all of you, be on your toes for misattributed stuff, and let us know!




    I still don't know if April's name is intended in irony, but since Mme has identified some of the character's names that I missed (GIVINGS!!!! Wonderful, Mme!!! I missed that entirely,) and Shep, and Yates is deceased I think we can make our own decisions as to what he was doing.

    Babs NH asked if there were any humor in the story, this may be one instance but it’s irony, isn’t it? It’s quite ironic, to me.




    Ed, you are always sooo provocative!! I’m going to answer some of your questions, how about do me the same favor and answer your statement about WWII vets and Paris? I bet it’s clear to all of YOU, my own husband nodded yes, but I don’t understand?

    Frank relieved? Frank kind of fades away, to me? He just disappears, I’ve had to read the end several times, it confuses me, we hear from Milly telling the new neighbors and Shep but Frank is suddenly the original hollow man, or so it seems to me, I can’t get a handle on it and I see others have answsered very finely, so will just follow their lead.

    I did have the feeling Mrs. Givings was relieved to finally put John away. I have heard others express the same notions when someone is ill. I’m really confused and uncertain over Mrs. Givings, need to think on that further.

    The hearing aid thing to turn out the rest of the world is a wonderful point, Ed. April tunes out too, and when she can’t she gets out of the car. Frank tunes out by filing the Goodies somewhere else. The characters tune out of reality by having affairs. I need to reread Shep, he’s the one puzzle piece in this thing, I think.

    You say, and I want to put this in the heading, “A large number of novels about families usually have some kind of Epiphany and often Redemption. Does any character in RR find redemption?

    I don’t see the Epiphany here, what was it?

    I think that one and the “Strong Character” one are two I’d like to hear from everybody today on, Jo has answsered on who she thought were the strongest characters, we’ll begin listing your choices in the heading, if you’d care to address that one?

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 11:33 am
    Babs I think you do read more closely than you realized! So you did see a tone from the beginning just like you did in American Beauty? It's an interesting comparison. The tuning out is there and the smiling facade, the affairs?

    I found the people in Yates more "normal" than some of the supporting cast of American Beauty, especially the Peeping Tom and the abusive father and the cheerleader who bragged about sexual conquest and who had had none, but that may be me. I love Kevin Spacey and looked at very little else in the movie so I need to see it again tho Annette Benning was fabulous and is ofter overlooked.

    I am not sure I saw a "tone," but I'm rereading it, did those of you who are reading it for the first time see a particular warning tone in it?

    Babs sees it as a bit "dated," how do the rest of you think about that? Is it particular to only one place or time?

    Super questions, and points, Babs!

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 11:53 am


    MME!! Wonderful on the MIRRORS, how clever you are!! I had NO idea all that was there and had not remarked on the first one!! (Maybe I think it's normal behavior ahahahahahah) That's sooo good I'm going to put it in our body of topics and issues noticed, thank you soo much!!







    I say let us put man and a woman together
    To find out which one is smarter
    Some say man but I say no
    The woman got the man de day should know



    And not me but the people they say
    That de man are leading de women astray


    But I say, that the women of today
    Smarter than the man in every way
    That’s right de woman is uh smarter
    That’s right de woman is uh smarter
    That’s right de woman is uh smarter, that’s right, that’s right
    ---Harry Belafonte "Man Smart"


    Mme, you said Ginny: "His women are more manlike." Perhaps I have an overblown sense of the importance and strength of women, but I don’t understand this comment. Is manlike good and womanlike bad? I think women, in general, are more perceptive, more "spatial" (able to see the big picture) in their outlook, and in that sense superior to men.

    I think all I was trying to articulate here, and I perhaps could have thought it out more fully or maybe articulated it better, was not a judgment of who is smarter, more perceptive or superior, or whether manhood is "good" or "bad," but it occurred to me that in this book, Yates, with all his talk of manhood and manly virtues and woman hood was also making a kind of statement by the way the men and women actually acted?

    For instance, when we think of Frank's mother and father, we see Dad and Oat Fields, where is mom? What do we have on Mom? I need to look back. How many pages, how many reminiscences? Mom is a nonentity, at least to me. Dad's work was seen as something the man does, the man works, even tho the son wants never to be like him (and turns into him) it's what a manly man does? Flash forward to 1955 and the Wheelers.

    It occurred to me that the women characters we are dealing with in this book in 1957 do the work of living and the men don't. Frank doesn't, he plays. He plays AT work. April does, she tries Littie Theater, she is willing to work in Paris, Mrs. Givings works and Howard (whom Yates made so much older, I found that intersting), naturally is retired and does not do any work, not at home, not with his son, not?) "Steady down, now." That's terrifically helpful. There's work and then there's work, The men don't do the work that Yates seems to indicate is man like behavior?

    This is a half formed theory based on the book alone and how well it holds up will depend on Shep, Milly, and John Givings (who obviously does not work NOW but did)...and I possibly should not have articulated it, but that's what we do here, throw out ideas, and hope they make sense. hahahaha

    On who is smarter, better, stronger, more virtuous, more perceptive, and "good," a man or a woman, I'm not sure Yates actually comes to any conclusion here, or does he??

    Not sure.....that's a good point, what do you all think?

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 12:05 pm
    Jo, You say that the failures that the characters have may be because in part they were playing the roles and not living them.

    This is off the subject, but I wonder why they couldn’t live them?

    I think April tried to. I don’t see any of the other characters taking the risk, but again, this is half formed and am not sure.

    What an interesting observation you make on the strongest character being Shep because he’s the only one who has grown!!

    I’m going say, for my part, April is the strongest character. Growth, huh? Super yardstick.

    I’m going to say that April grows more in this book than any other character. She has to deal with the loss of her secret dream (she could have been on the stage had she not gotten pregnant initially). She has to come to terms with the nothing she married whom she injected with all sorts of impossible hopes to replace the father she never got close to.

    And at the end, faced with what she thinks is another in the long series of hindrances in her life to be overcome she does a very dangerous thing, but she does act.

    Poor April. Nobody to counsel her. Despite all those long BS sessions, all Mr. Frank had to do was way, Hey, April, I can work for a year in Paris. Or you can have the baby (what were they going to do with the other kids while he “found “ himself? Rent them out?

    No that last part does not hold, the fabric does not hold, I'm thinking now that April’s death was Frank’s fault, and he knows it, and that just put a whole new slant to me on Frank and Ed’s question?

    I'd like to hear from all of you as to who YOU think is the strongest character in the book and why? I'm going to headline the heading with this question and a link to your answers?

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 12:21 pm


    Mme, what a super series of thoughts!!

    The "Running Away" theme, will add that to our list, wonderful!

    it’s just that without a focus for her inchoate yearnings, she decided that Frank’s finding himself would be the goal--I mean, you can’t just take off with no goal in mind.

    Why not?

    how could Frank not want to be interesting? Fear of failure?

    Oh good thought, I have no idea, I paused over that one too, I thought he spent all his time trying TO be interesting?

    there’s never been anything but contempt and distrust and a terrible sickly dependence on each other’s weakness…." Wow! That line really hit me!

    Yeah it did me too, but I don't think it's true. When you get really angry and you feel really down you think and say things that you don't really mean because that's how it appears to you at the moment. I don't think she means it at all, or she would not have induced an abortion to further the Paris Dream.

    ??

    The only time I can think of when he "came through" was the day he got so much accomplished because he was caught up in the "joyous derangement" of thoughts of quitting (before it got too close and might become threatening reality) and going to Paris. He even pitched the "Real Goodies" in file 13.

    Yes, but he did come thru, when else was he pushed hard? When he wanted to, he came thru. He was capable of coming thru and apparently those in his office appreciated it. Whether or not he comes thru in life is another topic entirely.

    Is Frank playing yet another role at the end--the grieving widower?

    I think so. I just erased a personal opinion here on funerals and the newly bereaved in general lest I seem insensitive but I will say if he is playacting (super point) the grieving widower, he's not the only one in the world.

    Reminds me of To the Manor Born for some reason but am in that kind of mood today, sorry.

    Such craftsmanship--it amazing to realize exactly how intricate this novel is.
    Amen!



    Can you believe when I started this novel, I thought, "I won’t have anything to say about this," and now I can’t shut up.


    hahaha I feel the same way, Say ON, MacDuff!!

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 4, 2002 - 12:23 pm
    3/4/02 Betty and Ginny, I absolutely see your point about woman’s roles in the 50s. That was a great quote, Betty, about the man/woman thing (I think I totally missed it because it was so anathema to me!), so perhaps despite her protestations to the contrary, April was being self-sacrificing. I think we need to tackle the male/female picture (especially in view of John Givings’ definition of feminine vs. female.) Ginny, you did your last two posts while I was composing this one, so I'll get to them later!

    And, Jo, I agree about Shep and Milly buying into the façade. Why did they?

    Was Shep a counterpoint to Frank? They had both been to the war, both came back seeking to be other than when they left. Shep actually did something (although he, too, cultivated an image!)—off to the midwest, college, marriage, Arizona, and there had his identity crisis and actually did something about that. The journey he and Milly took east was almost as daunting as taking off to Paris. And Shep seriously contemplated therapy, but he made it through the crisis on his own (with Milly’s help). Did the move back east really solve that problem?

    And speaking of male/female, I’m ready for war.

    Ten or fifteen years ago I saw a special on WWII and in an Andy Rooney interview, he said that he had never felt as alive as during that time—all senses were heightened (I wish I still had the tape so I could quote him). Others echoed that sentiment.

    Yates, or at least his male characters, felt the same way, judging by the constant references. There you are, life or death, instant decisions, no women to encumber you. So I’ll start off with citations.

    Frank says, "I remember acting very grim and scared because that was the fashionable way to act, but I couldn’t really put my heart in it. … I just felt this terrific sense of life. … I kept thinking: this is really true. This is the truth." (130 HB)

    After his lugubrious birthday party, "he turned off all the hot water and turned up the cold, … but he made himself stay under it until he’d counted to thirty, the way he used to do in the army, and he came out feeling like a million dollars." (107) Shep relished shining his shoes as he did in the military. (136)

    When Shep turned 18 he escaped his mother into the paratroops, seeking to be not only brave, but a "tough son of a bitch," earning a Silver Star and a field commission during his "tough guy" stage. ?) "Those things were real" … and "no psychiatrist would ever be able to take them away." (Interesting that Shep had toyed with the idea of analysis—personal to Yates? Foreshadow of Frank?)

    Shep takes charge when he finds out about April—"a tense, steady paratrooper, ready for action." (314) He runs out to his car. "It was the old combat feeling…" (315) Waiting for Frank on the platform was "like the war, too—hurry up and wait." (316) "Shep’s mind went mercifully out of focus in the way that it had always done, sooner or later, in combat…." (316)

    What is it about men and war?

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 12:36 pm
    Betty, you get the deeppink again!!

    You said, Ginny, when you replied to my "contract" thought, I realized I intended something slightly different. I had written that Frank and April's relationship could be based on a contract......that he remains "interesting" and that she believes in him. I should have written that their relationship was based on his continuing to act the part (role) of "interesting person," and that she continue to act as if she believed in him.

    I think I understood what you meant, actually? But hist? Mme says and quotes Frank as saying that he did not WANT to be "interesting?"

    And she asks why?

    And i know you are correct about gender roles in the 50's and 60's, I'm going to say for my part, that when April said you're the most wonderful thing in the world you're a man it was incongruous and false.

    I don't believe her. They had, (hadn't they?) just had the fight of their lives, she returns with this Paris solution he's a MANLY MAN, hooey.

    I don't believe it for a minute, but ol Frank did.

    Hooey.

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 12:39 pm
    Aha!! I'm caught up!!

    Shep, why did Shep defer to the Wheelers? For the same reason (this is just a theory) that he threw away and was embarrassed by his own upbringing, Shepherd Sears was going overboard, embracing the common man, deferring to him in order to fit in because he never had otherwise. Didn't it say he was an only child? Shep to me is the cipher, I have to go back and reread him again, he's playing more than any of them are, perhaps for his own reasons. I'm not sure I see what Jo does, have to reread Shep.

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 4, 2002 - 01:02 pm
    Since we now have more than 20 Questions in the heading (which I do hope you pause over as you come on down) by our readers for your delectation and comment, I have placed THIS in the heading as the Topic du Jour and invite your comments on it?

    You may still talk about any or all of the other topics the others bring up or the "20 Questions" in the heading or the myriad of topics and issues identified on the HTML page as well, but some of you like ONE topic per day, here's today's




    Topic du Jour:

    Which character do you think is the strongest in the book and why?




    Jo: Shep
    Ginny: April




    Jo Meander
    March 4, 2002 - 02:55 pm
    Ginny, you said, "I’m going to say that April grows more in this book than any other character. She has to deal with the loss of her secret dream (she could have been on the stage had she not gotten pregnant initially). She has to come to terms with the nothing she married whom she injected with all sorts of impossible hopes to replace the father she never got close to" and that's wonderful! I absolutely agree that she needs him to replace the father and to give her life purpose, especially after the opportunity to really be something eluded her twice (pregnancy, failed stage production). I’m still trying to decide whether or not she thought of him as "nothing" when she married him. Maybe she had at least partially convinced herself that he was a great man, or maybe her self-deception was more conscious than it appears to be early in the story.
    I think that she has struggled along trying to make some sense out of their lives together, and after discovering that she's pregnant again and then spending a night drinking and dancing and” romancing" Shep, she knows she has hit rock bottom with self-deception. She tells Shep, "I don't know who you are. . . . And even if I did, I'm afraid it wouldn't help, because you see I don't know who I am, either." If she is the strongest character, I think this moment is the beginning of the strongest character’s epiphany.
    p. 286_-- The day the Givings are told about the change in plans, John says, “Little woman decide she isn’t quite ready to quit playing house? Nah, nah, that’s not it. I can tell. She looks too tough. Tough and female and adequate as hell. Okay, then; it must have been you (Frank).…What happened? You get cold feet…decide you like it here after all? You figure it’s more comfy here in the old Hopeless Emptiness after all?…What’s the matter, Wheeler? Am I getting warm?” As they leave, he says “I’m glad I’m not that kid.”
    Then there’s the fight, the admission that she doesn’t love Frank, more deception when he interprets her mild demeanor the next morning as love and contrition. After he leaves and before she aborts the child, she writes that short note with no “Love” before the signature …just ”please don’t blame yourself.” She remembers how “…she had found it easy and agreeable to believe whatever this one particular boy felt like saying, and to repay him for that pleasure by telling easy, agreeable lies of her own, until each was saying what the other most wanted to hear – until he was saying “I love you” and she was saying “Really, I mean it; you’re the most interesting person I’ve ever met.”
    What a subtle, treacherous thing it was to let you go that way! Because once you’d started it was terribly difficult to stop; soon you were saying, ‘I’m sorry, of course you’re right,’ and ‘Whatever you think is best,’and ‘You’re the most wonderful and valuable thing in the world,’ and the next thing you knew all honesty, all truth, was as far away and glimmering, as hopelessly unattainable as the world of the golden people. Then you discovered you were working at life the way the Laurel Players worked at The Petrified Forest or the way Steve Kovick worked at his drums – earnest and sloppy and full of pretension and all wrong….”
    This is where she is when she aborts the baby and dies. Yes, there was endurance before this happened, honesty shortly before this happened, but her final action doesn’t fit my definition of strength. Frank, the self-absorbed bungler should be taking the blame, but so must she. She’s telling him not to take it! Who’s left to take it? Her father is probably dead (I don’t remember).



    Shep’s epiphany begins when he recognizes that his own grief over April is in danger of becoming forced, dishonest. And when Milly tells the new neighbors “…’it was an experience that’s brought us closer together,’ to say, ‘Yeah, that’s so; it really has.’ …And the funny part, he suddenly realized…was that he meant it. Looking at her now in the lamplight, this small, rumpled, foolish woman, he knew he had told the truth. Because God damn it, she was alive, wasn’t she? If he walked over to her chair right now and touched the back of her neck, she would close her eyes and smile, wouldn’t she? …When the Braces went home she would go in and bustle clumsily around the kitchen, washing the dishes and talking a mile a minute…. In the morning she’s get up and come humping downstairs again in her torn dressing gown with its smell of sleep and orange juice and cough syrup and stale deodorants, and go on living.”


    The ability to tell yourself the truth, to be grateful for little blessings, may in themselves not be very dramatic, but they do reflect a quiet strength. Shep may be bored again with Milly and domesticity, but he’ll realize the value of continuity. April’s lifetime of suffering and its culmination make dramatic demands upon our attention, but in the end, she isn’t strong. She just checks out. Now, it she’d taken the kids and left Frank….!
    (Can you tell I’m still not sure about this “strongest”thing?)

    Ed Zivitz
    March 4, 2002 - 03:23 pm
    Ginny: WWII vets & Paris.

    I am an Army vet,but not WWII,but those that I have known(especially if they were in the European Theatre) never wanted to go back to Europe as a tourist....so soon after 1945...they were happy to come home & start a life here... Later in life,that's another story.

    babsNH
    March 4, 2002 - 05:40 pm
    Strongest character? I think I will pick John, because he is the only truly honest person. Maybe you can't label a schizophrenic strong, I don't know, but his honesty was surely a breath of fresh air.

    MmeW
    March 4, 2002 - 07:45 pm
    Ginny, you’re reading too fast. I didn’t say Frank didn’t want to be interesting--he said he didn’t want his work to be interesting. I went on to say, why not, since most people are identified with their work.

    And when I said "you can’t just up and move without a reason," that was meant to be facetious (?) from the POV of the 50s. (Like Mrs. Givings: "people don’t do things like that, do they?")

    Jo, what an insightful discussion of both April and Shep vis-à-vis strong character. I think, however, I would almost categorize April’s action at the end to be inevitable in the Greek tragedy sense--the train was rolling and there was no getting off.

    I’m not sure there is a strong character in RR. I still think Shep is sort of a foil for Frank, strong in that sense, in that he at least did things to try to change his life--transferring to public school, going to the midwest tech school, moving from Arizona back east, even making a play for April. And he was successful with the girls in Paris during the war; Frank wasn’t.

    So, like Jo, I lean toward Shep, who seems to recognize the banality of his existence and to have come to terms with it to a certain extent. He realizes that his life in the East is not what he pictured in Arizona, but he’s OK with that: "the mellowing of these past few years had enabled him to look back without regret." He was no longer "plagued by the sense of having culturally missed out …" He certainly recognizes that Milly is a brick to have stuck with him through his leaving-Arizona phase, that he’d be "sick" if he ever regretted marrying her again. (However, within two pages of that he’s mooning over April.) Yet at the end, as Jo said, he recognizes that surviving (this dull mundane existence) is perhaps the only thing you can hope for or the only thing you can admire. Reminds me of existentialism a bit.

    My encapsulated version of Camus’s philosophy is that life is absurd and there’s no changing that, so the only thing you can do to give your life meaning is to acknowledge it and fight the absurdity even though it’s hopeless. (my apologies to real philosophers) Is that what April does?

    What about Yates’ intent? Did he intend for April to be the strong character? Did April commit suicide or was she really trying to abort the baby or both? If suicide, why? And why in such a way? Was it to get back at Frank (no matter what her letter said) for saying he wished she had gotten rid of it? And is suicide courageous or the coward’s way out?

    And what if April had survived? What then? Back to role-playing?

    rambler
    March 4, 2002 - 07:51 pm
    I'm glad this discussion is moving so well. You guys see so much more than I do, even though I read RR around 1961 (and several times since) and am roughly a contemporary of Richard Yates. But as mentioned previously, I'm almost never a fiction person, but RR is the (very) rare exception to that rule.

    Ginny
    March 5, 2002 - 06:31 am
    Thank you, Ed, you'd think that that would be obvious but for some reason it escaped me, I think I fell too much for the happy "Paree" stories I've heard and forgot all the unhappy things, thought the conquering heroes would want to return, thank you for that insight.




    I agree, Rambler, it's quite exciting here to read all the insightful, really wonderful comments.




    And what a Pandora's box you have opened with your Epiphany and Redemption! I don't see too many Epiphanies, that's my problem. JO, what a super point on Shep and epiphany, and now you've got me thinking differently about April as well, just a little.....you had me completely till you said this:



    but in the end, she isn’t strong. She just checks out. Now, it she’d taken the kids and left Frank….! (Can you tell I’m still not sure about this “strongest”thing?)


    As MmeW said, perhaps there IS no strong character as we would think of strong....but Jo! That's unfair!

    She checks out? Not entirely her choice, was it? She could have committed suicide, too. Don't you remember back in the 50' s and 60's the stern old wives tales about when it was safe to abort (sorry for the topics of this conversation) and when it was not? Risk happened after a certain time? I need to go back and look to see if Yates articulated the time, but the "magic number " of the 50's and 60's is not the same one today?

    I'm saying that it was not an automatic death sentence, nor was it thought of as one, and she did not check out because she was weak? If that's the case I hate to say it but we all will be weak someday. hahahahaa

    But you raise a good point, and I think I'll retract my April as strong because she could have taken the kids and left. She could have had the baby. She could have (tho you have pointed out very well why she would not have, moved to Paris anyway with the kids). Now why did Yates make that choice? I loved MmeW's insights on that, was she trying to harm Frank (I hope that's what you said, haahahahah)

    I think I got so caught up in the mind set of the book that I, too, saw what she did as not so strange, but today of course she'd BE in Paris, kids in tow, and loving it.

    Who called the ambulance, I don't remember?




    Sorry, MmeW, to have misunderstood your posting on interesting!

    You said

    Did April commit suicide or was she really trying to abort the baby or both? If suicide, why? And why in such a way? Was it to get back at Frank (no matter what her letter said) for saying he wished she had gotten rid of it? And is suicide courageous or the coward’s way out?


    I thnk there are other ways to commit suicide and that even in the ancient 50's and 60's people knew there was a risk to late abortions, but it was not an automatic death sentence, that's a pretty bad way to die, other ways are much quicker, leave no questions behind, and make a more definite statement. But that's my opinion. I don't see suicide as strong any time, nor abortion, now that I think of it, I think I will retract April, tho in every way BUT this she has been, to me, the strongest. Maybe this was her Epiphany (and lack of Redemption).




    Jo, does the strong character in a book always have an Epiphany? Can the weak ones have one too?




    MmeW says:

    And what if April had survived? What then? Back to role-playing?


    THAT'S the 64, 000 question, isn't it? What IF? Makes you wonder why Yates didin't do just that?

    Or was Yates saying this as you did

    My encapsulated version of Camus’s philosophy is that life is absurd and there’s no changing that, so the only thing you can do to give your life meaning is to acknowledge it and fight the absurdity even though it’s hopeless. (my apologies to real philosophers) Is that what April does?


    That's a good point, and I appreciate your bringing in Camus, wonder IF that was what Yates was saying. Then again, April seems to be saying let's just stop trying to figure out the absurdities and just live at one point, to me:

    (Page 276) Wouldn't it be all right if we sort of didn't talk about anything? she asked. I mean couldn't we just sort of just take each day as it comes, and do the best we can, and not feel we have to talk about everything all thie time?



    Shep is still, however , playing a role at the end of the book, I'm going to say the role begins to chafe, but role it is:

    (page 326: the last chapter in the book):

    His role during these recitals [of the Wheelers] was to sit and stare gravely at the carpet, occasionally shaking hiw head or flexing his bite, until she cued him to make certain small corroborations.


    Looks to me like the curse of the Player has passed to Shep here, you can't get much clearer than Yates does. Shep hates it, he cries and then he looks at Milly as you all have described above and goes "on living." Flexing his jaw, playing a role, waiting to be cued, you don't get clearer "direction" from an author than that.




    I thought a very telling sentence in the book was on page 290 (paperback) where Frank and April were arguing, she gets hysterical and he does not know what to do. In the movies men slapped woman who were hysterical.


    ...and he waited for what he guessed would be a transition from laughter to weeping--that was what usually happened in the movies---


    That intersted me because the children of the 50s and 60's were very much the children of television and the movies....I don't think we realize how much.

    And here we have Frank whose ideas of how to behave are formed by the movies, and who expects his life to be a movie plot, he's totally....who said schizophrenia earlier, he's totally removed when...

    This is really a fascinating book, isn't it? I agree with something Ed said much earlier, I think that Yates has exposed a raw nerve of human emotion that is difficult to deal with, they are difficult for all of us, I think. How the author handles them will make for insteresting comparison with the Franzen.

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 5, 2002 - 07:01 am


    BabsNH: You said John was the only honest character, I think that's a very interesting thought, I'm trying to look back and see who is not honest and how/ why? How about Howard Givings.....that's a fascinating insight, I hope it will carry over to The Corrections, (which I have not read yet) .

    Those of you who have read The Corrections, I bet you are seeing all kinds of parallels, we willl open the floodgates for them about 3 days into Sarah's presentation of The Corrections sometime after the Ides of March.

    Epiphany: 3. A usually sudden manifestation of perception of the essential nature or meaning of something....an intuitive grasp of reality through something (as an event) usually simple and striking...an illuminating discovery....a revealing scene or moment....(Webster's Tenth Edition).

    Hmmm!

    I had thought there was a famous quote about the truth being revealed in "small epiphanies," but google has returned a hundred authors, and I don't know who said it first hahahahaha, does that phrase ring a bell with anybody?




    As I look back thru the book at the things I underlined I am seeing some striking things.

    Here's one:

    Intelligent, thinking people would take things like this in their stride, jsut as they took the larger absurdities of deadly dull jobs in the city and deadly dull homes in the suburbs. Economic circumstance might force you to live in this enironment, but the important thing was to keep from being contaminated. The imortant thing, always was to remember who you were. (page 20)

    followed by (check this one out:)

    Who could be frightened in as wide and bright, as clean and quiet a house as this? (page 30)...

    and there's the startling:

    ....life since then had carried him from strength to strength....(page 21)...



    I found this phrase "from strength to strength" particularly jarring, coming as it does in the midst of a recital of Frank's life.

    "From strength to strength" is a phrase from the Burial Offfice, and is part of a larger phrase:


    ...he may go from strength to strength in the life of perfect service




    You can see it here in 1969 at the Funeral Service of Dwight D. Eisenhower

    It seems very ironic to me that this specific well known phrase should pop up in this unobtrusive way in this narrative, which is about as opposite to a life of perfect service as you can get. What can it mean?

    Just another little Easter Egg Yates has hidden, perhaps? I don't think that phrase is there by accident, it's too specific.

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 5, 2002 - 09:12 am
    I don’t think we can call John the strongest character, for though he sees the truth clearly, it has driven him crazy…but is he crazy or is it the people who cannot stand the light he sheds who label him thus? I think Jo’s red quote above expresses the book in a nutshell.

    The "strength to strength" phrase is very intriguing, particularly in that it occurs as Frank is adjusting to life after his term in the service.

    Ginny, Yates does mention the proper time for abortions, in fact makes quite a big deal about it, referring to the calendar on the wall affording them a period of peace until the first week in August, "more than four weeks away and clear over on the next page, …the mysterious time ‘right at the end of the third month’ when the school friend, long ago, had said it would be safe to apply the rubber syringe." Their discussions continue during this period with Frank being careful to be manly and strong. "For eleven more days…he would have to keep all the forces of his argument marshaled and ready for instant, skillful use." And then, finally, "yesterday had been the last of the first week in August. The deadline had come and gone. The debate was over, and he had won. … the calendar had lost its power." Frank had awoken that day, however, with a sense of dread and was finally able to figure out why: "It was that he was going to have another child, and he wasn’t at all sure that he wanted one."

    Ironically, this sentence is immediately followed by pamphlet dictation (I’ll omit the punctuation); "Knowing what you’ve got, knowing what you need, knowing what you can do without--that’s inventory control."

    His whole attitude changed after they passed the deadline. Suddenly, if April was unhappy, that "was unfortunate, but it was, after all, her own problem." When she decides to sleep alone, it annoys him slightly, but again, "It was her problem." And this was exactly the wrong time to be distancing himself from her because it was just as she was discovering the absurdity and pointlessness of her own life and their relationship. (I don’t see an epiphany for April, just a slow dawning of what she knew all along.)

    And maybe that’s why April is strong. Despite the risk, she chooses to revert to her previous decision (of abortion), perhaps as a statement. Or was it a way of committing suicide without actually committing to the act? (We do play mind games.)

    Ginny
    March 5, 2002 - 09:37 am
    Mme, thank you so much for looking that up and bringing that here, what an asset to a book group you are!!

    So it's the first trimester but certain death does not await those who venture beyond it, either, not now, and not then.

    April had to have been the one who called the ambulance, Frank knew nothing about it, nor did Milly nor Mrs. Givings, there's nobody else, and if she did, then she wanted to live, instead of commiting suicide by lying there quietly and bleeding to death. I've had, unfortunately, a micarriage, (sorry for bringing this up in a public discussion) I know how easy it would have been to lie there and bleed to death. She didn't. In fact it took some effort for her to call for assistance, I would imagine.

    You said And maybe that’s why April is strong. Despite the risk, she chooses to revert to her previous decision (of abortion), perhaps as a statement. Or was it a way of committing suicide without actually committing to the act? (We do play mind games.)

    If she was thinking suicide, she had to have changed her mind, because she is the only one who could have called the ambulance or Yates would have said who did?

    What provocative questions you have, here is what April herself was thinking on page 311, but am not sure what it means?



    She was calm and quiet now with knowing what she had always known, what neither her parenta nor Aunt Claire nor Frank nor anyone else had ever had to teach her: that if you wanted to do something absolutely honest, something true, it always turned out to be a thing that had to be done alone.



    That seems to me, to suggest perhaps yet another underling point the book is making, but am not sure what it might be?

    What do you all think?

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 5, 2002 - 10:03 am
    Whoa, Ginny! You are absolutely right--I think I just whizzed past that part. As Aunt Claire advised, she had thought it completely through, even to "writing down the number of the hospital and propping it by the telephone." April was doing something honest and true, and doing it alone. She’s my Camus-ian hero.

    Though I must admit that it's hard to see an abortion as a brave act of defiance, honest and true, but to April it was, I think, because it was so totally unthinkable not to want to be a mother at the time (see Frank's psychological arguments about denying motherhood). Framing again: dissuaded the first time, true to herself at the end.

    Ed Zivitz
    March 5, 2002 - 02:15 pm
    Do we get Freudian here?

    I'm not sure that April wanted to commit suicide,but there is a fine line between suicide and homicide.

    April was intent on homicide. She is the one who called the ambulance..she left the phone number by the phone so that she wouldn't have to search for it. I believe that she wanted to be rescued so that she could eventually go to Paris,plus there was a ton of guilt that she could hang over Frank's head (this wouldn't have happened if you let me do the abortion earlier).

    I found April to be whiny,conniving and malicious (perhaps it's a male perspective)

    Strongest character? Maybe Howard Givings. He seemed to be the only one who really understood John and he knew when to shut out the rest of the world by turning off his hearing aid.

    MmeW
    March 5, 2002 - 07:20 pm
    Hmmm. April whiny, conniving and malicious... Be specific, Ed. I'm ready to be convinced.

    Perhaps Howard was the strongest because he put up with Mrs. Givings and her babbling all those years. (in a kindly way) (and he didn't always have a hearing aid)

    And I still think Shep because he was one of the more clear-sighted, at least about his own motivations, but he was besotted with April.

    I can't seem to get italics or bold or color with my print. How do you do it?

    SarahT
    March 5, 2002 - 08:54 pm
    I didn't find any of the characters to be strong. April is just crazy, if you ask me. She has never recovered from her terrible childhood and is beautiful and absolutely mad. Had she had professional help, I think everyone would have been far more aware of this than they were. But Ed - whiny, conniving and malicious??? Where?

    Shep for me is a nonentity. I only remember his fantasies about April and how pathetic they were. I saw nothing in him at all.

    Frank, in some ways, was sympathetic to me, because he was still this ostracized hated little boy who tried to play at being "cool" and together. His constant jaw posing in the mirror was a clear indication of his insecurity.

    Mrs. Givings was living in a dream world, and trying so hard to block out reality, with all her false happiness. I know a lot of people just like her. There is never a moment of honesty.

    Mr. Givings was just a statue to me, another nonentity.

    Milly and the kids were complete unformed amoeba; I never got any sense of them.

    John was just cruel - crazy, but cruel. Yes, he spoke the truth, but only managed to hurt others in the process. He said all of the things that I suspect we all would have been thinking, but that most of us have the sense - or courtesy - to refrain from saying.

    In terms of the question about whether this book was dated - it certainly reflects the times, but I find it completely fascinating nonetheless. I suspect that today the blow-up at the end, where April tells Frank she doesn't love him, would have happened far earlier in their relationship, or that there would have been more hints of her true feelings earlier. The repression of the times certainly caused them to be more tight-lipped about their feelings than I think a couple in trouble would be nowadays. If this book hadn't been written in the 50s, I would have said it was a cariacature of the repressed suburbanites of that era.

    Ginny
    March 6, 2002 - 05:09 am


    Sarah, our Marathoner, so good to see you back!

    Wow. Ed!! murderer? Homicide?

    Now how did we all miss that? I myself was so caught up in the story that I failed to notice a murder was being planned here, an abortion in the second trimester would have to be considered a murder, actually.

    I think Yates did a pretty good snow job on me if I missed that!

    So let's review here:

    April:

  • whiny,conniving and malicious Ed
  • crazy Sarah
  • strong: but beginning to waver in that thought Ginny

    Let's all weigh in on this today??

    How do YOU see April??




    Now how can you all say Howard Givings is strong? He is the antithesis of strong , to me? He just tunes out, and if it's something he can't tune out he just repeats meaningless soothing phrases, "Steady down, now." What help is that?

    Can we look at the character of Howard?

    What is Yates saying in this book with these people?

    The one he says is true, April, we now think is ....well the Jury (you ) is still out... but it's not looking good. The one who supposedly has a grasp on reality is certifiably crazy (John).

    I loved Sarah's slant on John: Yes, he spoke the truth, but only managed to hurt others in the process. He said all of the things that I suspect we all would have been thinking, but that most of us have the sense - or courtesy - to refrain from saying.

    Is Yates saying anything here and if so, what is it?

    About Truth? About Reality?

    Let's hear from all of you on your impressions of April and Howard today?

    Mme, have sent you an email on the bold and italics?

    ginny
  • Ginny
    March 6, 2002 - 05:25 am
    I an noticing that several of you are reacting very strongly to some aspects of the book and I wonder if Yates has touched any of us maybe touched a nerve long dormant in something he's said here?

    Reading this book for me was like a series of electric shocks. I don't think the book is limited to setting or locale, either? I think it might have been in any place in the US, do you agree?

    There are so many little shocks of recognition, like this one on page 15: the face he had given himself in mirrors since boyhood and which no photograph had ever quite achieved.

    Do you have a face like that? I do.

    And this one on page 45 The idea was to lay a long, curving walk from the front door to the road, to divert visitors from coming in through the kitchen.

    When I read something like that I feel "justified." I have never had a house that people did not insist on coming to the side or kitchen door? I don't care who they are, they come to the side, I guess it feels more friendly. Unfortunately your kitchen or mudroom side of the house might not be the one where you are ready to open the door to the public, hahahahah maybe in YOUR house you are ready but I'm not.

    I suppose I could put up signs hahahahaahah Blinking NEON: FRONT DOOR---> hahahahahaa

    But invariably WHOEVER gets to trapise now (the way this house is laid out) down a long hall, past the mudroom, past the bathroom, past the master bedroom thru the kitchen and pantry and THEN arriving in the great room where they should have BEGUN in the first place? Past whatever relics of life that happen not to be "prepared " to receive them? Am I another Wheeler? hahahaha snort.

    So when I'm reading and I see these little throw away things and they jolt me I feel as if I, too, have experienced something of what's happening and it pulls me INTO the book. Something to latch on to that is of my own experience.

    I don't know why I brought that up, on the surface it would almost seem I have nothing in common with the Wheelers, never lived that life, don't want to, but have seen others do it in my childhood spent in suburban New Jersey in just such a place.




    I was thinking this morning, is it possible that the word Revolutionary means more than the war?

    ginny

    SarahT
    March 6, 2002 - 08:55 am
    I felt the title was ironic, since nothing "revolutionary" happened in the book. It was almost a commentary on how banal the lives of these characters truly were.

    I wondered about Frank and that stone path. There was something impossible about his task, like a man trying to roll a large stone uphill. He was fighting against nature by building it, somehow - couldn't just rely on the natural slope of the hill, but had to terrace into the earth in order to create stability. It's a commentary about the difficulty of normal life, I think.

    There was also something almost .. . Christian (again ironically so) in Frank's countdown to the point after which abortion would be infeasible. 12 days, he kept saying, like the 12 days till Christ's birth. And this: "it began to appear that this was to be one of their silent nights . . . ." Again, I thought this was an illusion, however ironic, to "Silent Night." "Silent Night, holy night, all is calm all is bright." Not.

    And how creepy was this: "When he reached for a towel . . . he saw, on the top shelf, a small square package freshly wrapped in drugstore paper [with] a potent, secret look, like that of a hidden Christmas gift. . . . Inside the wrapping was a blue cardboard box bearing the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, and inside the box was the dark pink bulb of a rubber syringe."

    That has to be about as eerie a moment as any in the book.

    MmeW
    March 6, 2002 - 12:59 pm
    I don’t think we can really discuss the character of Howard because we don’t know him at all. I was being mildly facetious in agreeing with Ed. Besides, I wonder about Howard’s true character, for when he approaches the three in the yard, John backs away "like a cornered fugitive, his face distorted in a mixture of menace and fear." He seems to be quite terrified of "gentle" Howard.

    «That has to be about as eerie a moment as any in the book.»

    Really intriguing Christmas references. Does that make April the "anti-Virgin-Mary"?

    SarahT, Frank as Sisyphus (here’s Camus again)--interesting thought. But I don’t think he was as devoted to his task (of meaninglessly rolling the stone uphill--he really abandoned the project). Camus says that if the myth is tragic, it is because the hero is conscious, contrasting Sisyphus with the everyday worker, who usually is not. The essay appeared in English in 1955--was Yates influenced? Was Frank conscious?

    Or was April the conscious one, aware that moral and conventional are interchangeable, aware that she and Frank have been playing roles, interpersonal and societal, since the beginning.

    I still think we need to look at the male/female dichotomy? Roles? What was Yates saying about them? What was the situation in the 50s?

    I graduated from high school in 1959. My father offered to send my screw-up brother to any professional school he wanted (law, med, etc.), but li'l honor student me, he advised to become a teacher. I remember lofty discussions with my Yalie boyfriend and his father, but my opinion not being sought, in fact being dismissed. His father, by the way, in a dead-end job, went on periodic binges (months or years apart). Which brings us to Yates and his alcoholism and the escape from reality theme, which I still think needs to be tackled.

    Ginny, touching a nerve--you think?

    rambler
    March 6, 2002 - 04:09 pm
    MmeW: Sounds like you deserved a better father, a better boyfriend, a better boyfriend's father. "Life is unfair."--J.F.K. Does that sound glib? It is not so intended.

    Now, booze--I know a little about that. If Ordway has to come to work in loafers because he can't tie his shoes and is worried about puking in his office, is he just a "borderline alcoholic"? p. 82 in my hardcover.

    SarahT
    March 6, 2002 - 04:49 pm
    Sounds like a rhetorical question, rambler!

    MmeW
    March 6, 2002 - 05:39 pm
    Thanks, Rambler.... Just meant that little anecdote as a sign of the times, as Petulia might sing.

    I think the alcohol is, too. (But you're right about Ordway, of course) When I was in college, I got included in parties occasionally of some of the younger couples in the suburban Chicago neighborhood and I remember lots of booze and inter-couple flirting. No one spouting alienated rhetoric, though. Thoroughly buttoned-down.

    Jo Meander
    March 7, 2002 - 01:09 am
    The posts have been really challenging to me – no way that I can sum up my reactions quickly or easily, but I’ll try. My early indoctrination placed abortion and ax murder in the same category: never an option, NEVER! For me to discuss it as a possible act of heroism and righteous self-assertion is difficult, indeed, even though I’m aware that not everyone was raised to think as I was. I have trouble with the idea even now, when I profess to be “pro choice,” so my view of April’s behavior is not clear. Carrying out her plan alone may be, for her, an instance of existential independence and strength, flying in the face of life’s absurdity in trying to make the best choice in a bad set of choices, but it feels so wrong to me. It wasn’t suicide, but her note to Frank indicates that she knows her death is a real possibility : “Whatever happens….”

    Maybe the closest I can come to thinking the questions through is to echo the suggestion that there are no really strong characters in this story. I do think that April deserves credit for her effort to make something of her marriage, even though she has to admit to herself, at last, that she does not love Frank and really doesn’t understand herself. I still think that was an epiphany, even if she had been suppressing the truth, denying her own awareness of it, before the night with Shep. Previously, she was living as if there were something to salvage, something of value in Frank and in her that could bear fruit if only the external circumstances could be changed. That night, she acknowledges that nothing good is going to happen, that she does not have the emotional commitment to go on trying.
    Ginny, I do think any character, even a weak one, can have an epiphany, if they are mentally alert, and sensitive to circumstances that influence life, including their own weaknesses and strengths. For example, one may recognize that one is weak after denying it for a long time! MmeW points out Camus' definition of a tragic hero: he must be conscious of life's absurdity. Maybe that's April! But then, isn't she trying to escape it rather than live through it? I dunno!



    Goodness, what an irony you have pointed out MmeW:
    “ Frank had awoken that day, however, with a sense of dread and was finally able to figure out why: ‘It was that he was going to have another child, and he wasn’t at all sure that he wanted one.’ Ironically, this sentence is immediately followed by pamphlet dictation (I’ll omit the punctuation); ‘Knowing what you’ve got, knowing what you need, knowing what you can do without--that’s inventory control’ ”



    How far do the characters extend this maxim?

    betty gregory
    March 7, 2002 - 04:52 pm
    "Absolutely honest, something true," Yates says through April.....it has to be done alone. Thinking about ALL the characters at once and how they relate to each other, they seem to line up on an honesty continuum, beginning with John at one end and Mrs. Givings way at the other end. All the other characters fall somewhere on this line, not as honest as John and more honest than Mrs. Givings. Living "true" doesn't always work to one's favor, if the world isn't that way, Yates seems to say. See what trouble John and April run into by being "true." Breaking free of a system always comes at a price......but not breaking free has its own price, too. Yates seems to be looking at both.

    Betty

    babsNH
    March 7, 2002 - 06:35 pm
    Thought this might be of interest. I won't be here for the discussion of this book, but I will want to read the archives when I get back. I am really interested to know what you all will say about it.

    Franzen's 'Corrections' Nominated for PEN/Faulkner





    March 7 — WASHINGTON (Reuters) - National Book Award winner Jonathan Franzen's novel "The Corrections" is one of five nominees for this year's PEN/Faulkner Award, the largest U.S. fiction prize, the foundation announced Thursday.

    His tragicomic tale about the disintegration of an American family was selected along with a story set in San Francisco in the Gilded Age, an American's scholar's paranoid recollection of a summer in London, the story of a dramatic terrorist siege in South America and a loving look at a Bombay apartment building and its tenants.

    In making the selections, judges David Guterson, Jane Hamilton and Sylvia Watanabe reviewed 325 novels and short story collections from 85 publishing houses.

    The PEN/Faulkner Foundation, named for author William Faulkner and affiliated with the international writers' organization PEN, was established in 1980 by writers to honor their peers. Its annual $15,000 juried prize for fiction is the largest in the United States.

    Past winners have included John Edgar Wideman, E.L. Doctorow, Don DeLillo, E. Annie Proulx and Ha Jin. Last year's winner was Philip Roth for his novel, "The Human Stain."

    Franzen's "The Corrections," (Farrar, Straus and Giroux) winner of this year's National Book Award for fiction, details the breakdown of an American family over the last half century.

    Karen Joy Fowler's "Sister Noon" (Marion Wood/G.P. Putnam's Sons) combines historical figures with fictional characters in 19th-century San Francisco. A black woman is the dominant force in the tale.

    Claire Messud's "The Hunters" (Harcourt, Inc.) is a novella about an American scholar living in a London suburb for the summer who becomes obsessed with his neighbor.

    Ann Patchett's "Bel Canto" (Harper Collins) describes how a fairytale evening at a lavish South American birthday party turns into a terrorist siege and how unexpected bonds are forged.

    Manil Suri's first novel, "The Death of Vishnu," (Norton) is the story of the caretaker and inhabitants of an apartment building in Bombay, whose stories also reflect divisions in modern India.

    The winner will be announced in April. The other four finalists receive $5,000 each.

    Copyright 2002 Reuters News Service. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.



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    Jo Meander
    March 7, 2002 - 10:48 pm
    Character of April: TRAGIC. She was doomed by her childhood, her own nature,and .choice of mate. The emphasis Yates puts upon her early exerience suggest that he thinks her ability to form loving relationships was shattered. Maybe choosing Frank was an artificial attempt to discover such a relationship because she was unable to choose out of spontaneous affection or attraction. She constructed, or created a reason for being with him, then set a high standard for both of them to maintain enthusiasm. It was all artificial.


    Character of Howard: passive, detached. The turned-off hearing aid says it all. He simply does not want the hassle involved with trying to make anything better. His wife is interested in many things outside the family circle, and anxious about John. Howard is interested in his next piece of cake.He wants John to "Steady..." to keep the peace. If he exerts himself, it's just to extract John from a scene which may escalate and become out of control. Maybe he's smart! He knows his wife isn't really going to cope with John's condition, that the family situation cannot be improved, and therefore his best bet is silence and comfort.

    Ginny
    March 8, 2002 - 11:33 am
    Golly you all have made some stunning points, I'm getting so much more out of it than if I had read it by myself, and I'm pretty imaginative.

    The Truth Line of Betty's with John at one end and his mother at the other and sandwiched inbetween all the "Revolutionaries," who aren't, or are they?

    And Sarah with the Christian symbolism, wonder if Yates put that in there to poiint out to those of us (like me) who were totally under his spell.

    And Jo, I agree with you, and am trying to figure out why and how Yates slipped that little matter of the abortion past me. I asked from the outset why couldn't Frank work? There's something wrong with that part of the book, I just can't put my finger on it, the abortion was not one of "necessity," to me. By that I mean no good reason: not even necessary to the plot, the plot falls apart once it happens.

    The man is good, you have to give him that, he had me completely understanding the one true thing do it yourself, idea...there's something very ephemeral in this section that I just can't put my finger on but it's vital at the same time.

    Yes I agree that April is tragic, I'm not sure I see all the small epiphanies you all see but I had one myself with what you've all said, so that's pretty good! hahahaha

    Mme, yes definitely a nerve, I'm reeling from the aftershocks, I wish I knew more about Camus, I don't seem to remember much and I know I've read him.

    We seem to be nominating eeriest moments in the book, I like that, are there any other nominations??

    I thought Sisyphus was doomed and his rolling the rock was not his choice at all? May have my myths mixed up, don't think he was excited about pushing the rock up hill but not sure.

    Conscious and unconscious, you guys are GOOD! Again over my head.

    And Mme, great point on ol Howard, his son, the Truth Teller scared and angry when he approaches, wonder why? We'll never know.

    Jo, loved your "something to salvage, something of value in Frank and in her that could bear fruit if only the external circumstances could be changed...."

    BabsNH: Thank you for that, I would like to read that Death of Vishnu sometime, have heard tons about it, if you like I will be glad to , if you'll email them to me, post your thoughts on Corrections? We will really miss you!

    Just a note today that you may recall we said we were doing a Fiction Reader's Series in the Book Club Online and you will receive today in the mail a ballot, which we hope you'll return with your top two choices for future selections of the Book Club Online, we're off to a super start in the year and I'm quite proud of what all you've done.

    more...

    Ginny
    March 8, 2002 - 11:47 am
    Ok in order to be ready to compare this book with The Corrections we need to identify some of the topics or threads it takes up, which you have done, and the charcterizations which several of you have done, and the various themes running thru the book, again touched on by many of you, we've looked at several devices like irony that the author uses, what else will we want to be armed with when thinking about comparing, because we have to look hard at The Corrections first?

    I'm not sure....er....I'm not sure what this book is about?

    I thought I knew?

    But now I'm not sure. It seems to be about a LOT of things, and I'm not sure which is the most important?

    Several of you have mentioned the times, the 50's and 60's and the possibility that Yates might be making social commentary. Mme noted we've not really looked at the alcohol elements of the book, am not sure where you all want to go there, how are they pertinent here except in the case of Jack Ordway (why put Jack Ordway in the book in the first place??)

    Youi know some of you have said that perhaps there are no strong characters in the book.

    Have you read very many books where there were no strong characters? No character to relate to, to admire? Not one?

    But this is not a war story or a story of druggies or fringe people, this is the story of yuppies in the burbs, does that say something?

    I don't know what this book is about and I've read it tons of times but till I read it with YOU I did not really look at it.

    What's it ABOUT?

    Reality? The Sham of Life? Is it s social commentary? Why are there so many religious references in it?

    If you had to write your Jeapordy answer in one word, what would you write in Final Jeapordy?

    What's this book about?

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 8, 2002 - 12:15 pm
    I thought this was very interesting and Betty said it earlier:

    Breaking free of a system always comes at a price......but not breaking free has its own price, too. Yates seems to be looking at both.

    When you break free of a system you are a revolutionary, right? Isn't that what it means?

    And those who don't break free, like Mrs. Givings, the opposite of truth tellers, not true, ...well, what can we say of her life? Even her own husband tunes her out.

    I keep wondering and worrying over why I did not see the "abortion" for what it was. Why I got caught up with April and her longing and her wanting to BE somebody, (I coulda been a contenda) to the point that I missed entirely what she was doing, it was so ....dry and clinical?

    I've spent two days thinking about this with the plumbers and carpenters and roofers and pruners here, it's a madhouse (and I don't HAVE John Givings here hahahaa) and I realized just now that despite the shocks of recognition (and there are hundreds in the book) in my own life, I can't and don't IDENTIFY with any of these people.

    I feel detached. Sort of clinically detached, and I can't fgure out why.

    So when April is being her one true self and Yates even glorifies it by showing all the prep and Aunt whoever and the one true thing stuff, I FELL for it!! Because she's not real to me? She's not a real person. I feel sorry for her and her white horse and I want her to win, but....it's hard to explain and I'm not sure I understand it myself.

    Maybe it goes back to Ed and the one dimensional characters, she's not real to me. He's not real to me, they are......shells. Don't get me wrong, now , I LOVE the book? Always have? It's one of my all time keepers, but I never noticed till now how...shell like they were, to me. Yates has done a JOB on me, I can tell you that.

    But I've read a lot of Yates and his characters are not shells. I just can't figure out why we (I) are seeing this from this detached perspective and what it might mean, if anything?

    This is amazing, to me, really.

    ginny

    SarahT
    March 8, 2002 - 12:48 pm
    Betty, I really related to this: "Living "true" doesn't always work to one's favor, if the world isn't that way, Yates seems to say. See what trouble John and April run into by being "true." Breaking free of a system always comes at a price." Yes - breaking free of the straight jacket makes you mad!

    And Jo, your commentary on April's tragic nature. I felt terribly sad for her throughout this book. Ginny, she did come alive for me, but in a very sad way. She was so damaged, so terribly damaged, by the hand she had been dealt.

    Did anyone ever really believe they would make it to Paris? I saw that as pure escapist fantasy - a desperate stab at breaking free that was doomed at the outset.

    I really have decided I despised Mr. Givings. How dare he turn off his hearing aid!! How dare he try to block out reality that way. I think we were supposed to dislike Mrs. G, and blame her for her son's madness, when in fact schizophrenia is purely congenital and cannot be blamed on anyone.

    Ginny
    March 8, 2002 - 01:09 pm
    Jo, is this part of the epiphany you spoke of with April?

    If so, it seems to be about truth, too: (page 304)....


    And the next thing you knew all honesty, all truth, was as far away and glimmering, as hopelessly unattainable as the world of the golden people. Then you discovered you were working at life the way the Laurel Players worked at the Petrified Forest...earnest and sloppy and ful of pretension and all wrong; you found you were saying yes when you meant no...

    And how could anybody else be blamed for that?


    Maybe truth or reality as Mme said earlier is what this book is about, but what can you make of a book where Nobody is truthful but the insane?

    Sarah, no, I never thought they would make it to Paris because Frank was not sold on the idea. It was her idea. Poor April. I feel sorry for her all over again. Some book, huh? UP down up down, jerk the reader all around. hahahaa

    Sarah: How dare Mr. Givings turn off his hearing aid? There are lots of Mr. Givings in the world right now doing just that, that part, that character IS true, and I TOTALLY agree we're supposed to dislike Mrs. Givings. I remember her with a shudder from when I first read the book, and am surprised now at how she has lost about 30 years and a lot of...well you have to admit taking the sedum over without asking if they'd like it first was a bit pushy?

    I mean, (copying phraseology from Yates hahaaha) think of your own foot of your driveway, what if somebody brought YOU a box of sedum for it?

    ??

    Why did Yates make so much of why even introduce that box of sedum into the thing and why end with it?

    ??

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 8, 2002 - 02:30 pm
    Mrs. Givings: (re: the Paris plan) "People don’t do things like that, do they? Unless they’re—well, running away from something, or something?"

    It seems to me that most of the characters are running for dear life, away from truth, away from honesty, avoiding the reality of their lives.

    Frank: early dreams of "riding the rails to the West Coast" (was Krebs an early John, pointing out the absurdity of his plan?), booze, creating illusions of himself, "in avoiding specific goals, he had avoided specific limitations"

    April: marriage ("freed her from the gritty round of disappointment " she’d have felt as a "mildly talented" drama school graduate; her dream of fleeing to Paris

    Shep: booze, dreams of April, and his early escapes: from kilted mama’s boy to tough guy, from private school to public, from the East to the Midwest, from Arizona back to the East (or were those, as he termed them, a "quest"?)

    Howard: turns off his hearing aid John: insanity

    Sarah T.: "Mrs. Givings was living in a dream world, and trying so hard to block out reality, with all her false happiness. I know a lot of people just like her. There is never a moment of honesty." Yes!

    Jo: "His wife is interested in many things outside the family circle, and anxious about John." I disagree: I don’t think her outside interests are so benign.

    I think initially she blocked out reality and relationships with work, work and more work. She loved her work in the office—"it was all that fortified her against the pressures of marriage and parenthood. Without it she would have gone out of her mind." When she takes up real estate, it’s not time-consuming enough, so she begins redecorating houses on the side. Anything to keep her occupied with something other than family.

    Think about it--maybe Howard turns off his hearing aid because she has been tuning him out all these years.

    By the time she decides to take it easy, she can no longer communicate with her husband (hearing aids) nor her child (insanity), so she gets a puppy (actually, not a bad idea) that she can totally control.

    And I think she’s happy to have John tucked out of sight. It’s she who insists that John stay locked up, and her visits become more and more infrequent.

    Does she really believe this: "That’s what came of good intentions—Try to love your child, and you helped to bring about another mother’s death." Does she truly feel responsible for April’s death? Does she love her child?

    Then there’s her ironic denial (St. Peter?) of the Wheelers at the end: "neurotic," "trying people to deal with," "strange," "irresponsible," "guarded," "unwholesome."

    The sedum--very interesting....

    MmeW
    March 8, 2002 - 04:04 pm
    Ginny: "I thought Sisyphus was doomed and his rolling the rock was not his choice at all? May have my myths mixed up, don't think he was excited about pushing the rock up hill but not sure." No, we are not excited about life’s absurdity, but we carry on in the face of it. Sisyphus is tragic because in the moments he’s walking down to start over again, he is conscious of the futility of his action." Oh, heck, here’s a better description from Bob Lane’s "The Absurd Hero" (http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/pwillen1/lit/abshero.htm): Sisyphus is the absurd hero. This man, sentenced to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain and then watching its descent, is the epitome of the absurd hero according to Camus. … Sisyphus is conscious of his plight, and therein lies the tragedy. For if, during the moments of descent, he nourished the hope that he would yet succeed, then his labour would lose its torment. But Sisyphus is clearly conscious of the extent of his own misery. It is this lucid recognition of his destiny that transforms his torment into his victory.

    And the rock idea is echoed by Yates: "All that saved him, all that enabled him now to crouch and lift a new stone from its socket and follow its rumbling fall with the steady and dignified tread of self-respect, was that the next day he had won." (dissuading April from the first abortion--but this is years after that "victory") And Frank’s victory wasn’t "lucid," as he reveals: "I didn’t want a baby any more than she did." So what had he won? (It’s called cutting your nose off to spite your face.)

    Interesting also in that Frank thinks of himself as "an intense, nicotine-stained, Jean-Paul-Sartre kind of man." (I don’t think cerebral Sartre and action-oriented Camus got along very well.)

    Ginny: "why and how Yates slipped that little matter of the abortion past me. There's something wrong with that part of the book, I just can't put my finger on it, the abortion was not one of "necessity," to me.

    Stewart O’Nan says in the article that evidently sparked the current interest in Yates: Throughout Revolutionary Road, his yearning for a better life is so strong that Frank Wheeler regularly deludes himself into believing that someday, through some unforeseen mechanism, he might really achieve his dreams and become this other, more accomplished person. He has such stock in this fantasy of himself (and the world) that nothing short of April’s death will rid him of his illusions. (http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR24.5/onan.html)

    Since April's death was necessary to the plot, perhaps so was the abortion because suicide would have been cowardly, and April had to make a brave, conscious act, in contrast to Frank's non-action. Again, from Lane: Wouldn't suicide be a legitimate way out of a meaningless life? "No." "No." answers Camus. Although the absurd cancels all chances of eternal freedom it magnifies freedom of action. Suicide is "acceptance at its extreme," it is a way of confessing that life is too much for one. This is the only life we have; and even though we are aware, in fact, because we are aware of the absurd, we can find value in this life.

    Ginny: it was so ....dry and clinical? It seems to me that sometimes in a crisis, you achieve such a clarity of purpose that your mind is cleared of everything else and you do operate as kind of an automaton; otherwise you would fall to pieces.

    The sedum: at end of the penultimate paragraph of the book, Mrs. Givings says: "Wouldn’t you think that when someone goes to a certain amount of trouble to give you a perfectly good plant, a living, growing thing, wouldn’t you think the very least you’d do would be to --?" Does it refer to their lives, full of promise and potential, or maybe the aborted fetus (I think that’s going too far because I can’t help but feel that to Yates abortion was not murder, but a clinical procedure, which is why we get drawn into it).

    Ginny: I asked from the outset why couldn't Frank work? It wasn’t that Frank couldn’t work, but that April’s plan couldn’t force him to. For her to come up with a viable plan, it had to be one that didn’t involve Frank’s active participation because that would have been a failure from the outset, even as daydreaming. (Frank is, as my little brother used to say, "big talk, little do.")

    Re themes: O’Nan quotes Yates as saying: "If my work has a theme, I suspect it is a simple one: that most human beings are inescapably alone, and therein lies their tragedy." Leave it to the author to hit the nail on the head!

    Ginny
    March 9, 2002 - 06:38 am
    LOOK at all this good stuff in here!!!

    Yates himself, on ALONE as theme, now that's really super, Mme, thank you for bringing that here.

    Do we agree in this book that's what's happening?

    Many times you'll have a live author who says in this book I was trying to show the.....and you find the readers are seeing something entirely else, (sometimes)...and you have to wonder why that is, what creeps out between the author and his intention, in this case Yates says it's a common theme in his books.

    You hate to disagree with an author, any time, particularly one who's deceased, particularly one brilliant enough to write something called Eleven Kinds of Loneliness.

    I do see a lot of aloneness in this book. I also see something else, it dances in an ephemeral way in front of my eyes, I can't SEEM to understand what it's saying.

    I got up this morning and put on a tan turtleneck and the colors made my hair look grey and me different...this is new?.... and I thought that's not me. That's not who I am.

    Child of the New Jersey suburb that I am. And then I recalled Mrs. Givings and her thoughts at the end of the book, about "our kind of people." That's been a theme too, very carefully hidden sometimes (April and her "golden people" that she would never be like at the crisis of her life)....Even down to which subdivision or not they live in , do they live IN the Revolutionary Road subdivision or do they live out and the boundaries we erect in the Pawnbroker suburbs.

    Our kind of people. I bet you if you look carefully throughout the whole book you will see innumerable references to status, too. The artificiality of status. In the end, tho, IS it that we're all alone?

    IS the message after all this book that we're alone and that's our tragedy, every man tragic?

    It sure explains why there no.....redeemed characters, I'm not seeing any which have experienced Redemption not sure what the qualifications for that are.

    Wonderfull provocative thoughts here this morning, I don't think I've ever thought harder about a book with less result!

    more....

    Ginny
    March 9, 2002 - 06:49 am
    Mme, are you also a fan of Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Have got that one memorized, could act it out on the stage. hahaahaha

    Ask me your questions, Gatekeper, I'm not afraid ahahahahaa

    THIS now, has to be the Quote of the Year!

    Think about it--maybe Howard turns off his hearing aid because she has been tuning him out all these years.


    Wow. So you think that Howard's sort of passivity is learned? Wow. Maybe it is in all cases. Wow.




    I loved youro "Run Away!" and will put this

    It seems to me that most of the characters are running for dear life, away from truth, away from honesty, avoiding the reality of their lives.
    on our theme page, it's seriously in arrears but I'm getting there, this will be wonderful to compare and I thank you for all these super ideas!




    This needs to be the question du jour, I puzzled over it myself and would like to hear what you all think:


    Does she really believe this: "That’s what came of good intentions—Try to love your child, and you helped to bring about another mother’s death." Does she truly feel responsible for April’s death? Does she love her child?



    COLOR!! Mme is usingi color!! Well done!




    Jeepers how can you argue with Camus?

    You said, "epitome of the absurd hero according to Camus. … Sisyphus is conscious of his plight, and therein lies the tragedy.

    It is this lucid recognition of his destiny that transforms his torment into his victory.


    Victory? The man is in hell? O Death where is thy sting? The man is in hell, how is that a victory?

    Camus is over my head! hahahaha



    Sisyphus, a legendary king of Corinth, reputed the most cunning of mankind. When Autolycus, another master of roguery, stole his neighbors’ cattle and changed their appearance so as to avoid detections, Sisyphus was able to pick out his own, having marked them under their hoofs. It is also related that when Death came to take him, the crafty Sisyphus chained him up; so that nobody died till Ares came and released Death again.

    For misdeeds on earth, variously related he was condemned in Hades to roll to the top of a hill a large stone, which when it reached the summit rolled down again, so that his punishment was eternal.---Oxford Companion to Classical Literature


    What a wonderful parallel you have made, Mme, to the rocks in the story, that's marvelous! I don't see a victory in terms of either set of rocks, myself. Am beginning to see why I did not do well in philosophy, I really am enjoying these Camus interjections.




    Now this:

    his yearning for a better life
    is one of the things Yates is also known for, the longings and yearnings in every person, that's very well said, as well.

    (You're on a ROLL!!!) Well done!

    (Another way this book is a bit different from Yates's other books, excuse me here a bit for mentioning it but nobody is...er...sorry...picking his nose? That seems to be a component of almost all of Yates's writings, it got to the point where I began to wonder if he had a fetish for it in his later writings, but it's not here?)

    And another thing I just learned from Sarah's post elsewhere was that this book, Revolutionary Road, was a finalist in the National Book Awards for 1961, wonder what won??

    Over this one??

    more....

    Ginny
    March 9, 2002 - 07:35 am


    I expect I am the only person on earth who saw and intensely disliked the movie Cider House Rules. I love Michael Caine, and loved the performances but the subject matter was anathema to me.

    Likewise we read the book in the Book Club Online and again I was.....well I won't say disgusted but I was pretty .....don't know the word.

    And it'a a very similar situation, many arguments over the "courageousness" of the Caine character, very similar.

    Yet I read April'a story with nary a flinch till Jo said Whoa and Ed said homicide?

    Thank you Mme, for that helpful explanation of why the reader may be beguiled in this book to overlooking...what to me is not necessary to the plot. I feel better.

    Here's where the book falls apart, to me: the pregnancy, the abortion. Suicide is not in it, that was not what was intended, or so I believe.

    Consider:

    You said, Mme, necessary to the plot, perhaps so was the abortion because suicide would have been cowardly, and April had to make a brave, conscious act, in contrast to Frank's non-action.

    It wasn’t that Frank couldn’t work, but that April’s plan couldn’t force him to. For her to come up with a viable plan, it had to be one that didn’t involve Frank’s active participation because that would have been a failure from the outset, even as daydreaming. (Frank is, as my little brother used to say, "big talk, little do.")


    OK, April has a "Plan," and that "Plan" depends on her, he's to lollygag around in Paris, the kids, I assume will be in school, some of the day, she will work and......and...

    What?

    He will "find himself," what will she get out of it?

    ??

    What's April's reward to be in all of this?




    So it appears that she becomes pregnant, (a very common ...er....hindrance in the masculine world of the 50's and 60's?) and then......what? The "plan" is in the wastebasket because....

  • a. He wasn't keen on the Paris idea in the first place which means that she has to do it all herself? She is conniving as Ed said?
  • b. She can't work and have a small infant? There are no day cares in Paris? There are no nannies? I don't understand what her pregnancy has to do with the all over scheme? She already HAS two children. What's one more?

    Mme you said, " It wasn’t that Frank couldn’t work, but that April’s plan couldn’t force him to. "

    Looks like to me the pregnancy would force him to? He would have to go to Paris or recant like a fool and once there he would have to do something or not be able to hold up his head. Here, parhaps, Yates slips into the masculine patterns of the 50's? Dated? OR>>>

    Pregnant women work? Women with babies use day care?

    Would this show Frank as NO man at all, was she trying to SAVE him from himself?

    The possiblities and themes are endless.

    If she wanted to force him, wouldn't the pregnancy do it? Assuming he continued to Paris?

    Paris is not a place that there are no children? I'm having a lot of problems understanding why they could not wait 9 months and go?

    Note he had no idea of ending the pregnancy, he wasn't keen on it but maybe she didn't want to hear, since she knew he would use it as an "excuse" for the rest of their lives, maybe she just didn't want to hear it (tune out) any more.

    In that scenario our April becomes something entirely different from what I think Yates has tried to portray her as, I am grateful to Ed and Jo for their caveats.

    But which is the real April?

    I guess I'm trying to say there WERE alternatives. Why did April not see them?

    ginny
  • Jo Meander
    March 9, 2002 - 08:44 am
    MmeW: Actually, I agree about Mrs. Givings and her activities: they are not benign at all! I absolutely think that her busyness was avoidance, that she neglected her own living things because they were too much for her to handle. The work, the furniture refinishing and redecorating, the puppy -- all much easier! She expected life to go a certain way, her son to turn out a certain way, and when her expectations were disappointed, she had to turn away from him. (Does she have anything in common with April, Frank and Shep? More on this!))
    Her concluding remarks about the neglect of a “living thing,” I believe to be deliberate irony on Yates’ part, and to have application to the abortion as well as to the lives of these parents. The batch of sedum represents “a certain amount of trouble …a living, growing thing” to Mrs. Givings, and can be taken as emblematic of the distractions Mrs. G. finds for herself when the human beings become too complicated. I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a variety of interests, even passions, but Yates uses them in Mrs. G’s case to represent the need to escape, and even the individual isolation or solitariness you have pointed out MmeW, by quoting the author:
    MmeW: "If my work has a theme, I suspect it is a simple one: that most human beings are inescapably alone, and therein lies their tragedy."
    The only adult that isn't negecting the "living, growing things" is Milly! John doesn't count, because he is functioning as an oracle, not a responsible individual.

    Jo Meander
    March 9, 2002 - 08:58 am
    Ginny, yes I think this is part of her statement of her epiphany, Without articualation orf a conviction, I don't think there can be an epiphany in literature:
    "And the next thing you knew all honesty, all truth, was as far away and glimmering, as hopelessly unattainable as the world of the golden people. Then you discovered you were working at life the way the Laurel Players worked at the Petrified Forest...earnest and sloppy and full of pretension and all wrong; you found you were saying yes when you meant no... And how could anybody else be blamed for that?"
    Her statements to Shep about about not knowing who he is and not knowing who she is are the beginning of the epiphany; the lines you quote contain her perception of life's futility.


    I think it's April’s conscious recognition of her misplaced energy, her dedication to finding her purpose and Frank's purpose as well. I'm trying to think all this through right now, espcially in light of the Yates' line MmeW has brought us on the tragedy of human loneliness.

    betty gregory
    March 9, 2002 - 09:11 am
    There must be something called "feminist lit crit," because there is "feminist theory" and "feminist ideology," for example, in psychological treatment style. In the latter are beliefs about the unhealthiness of traditional male hierarchical perception. For example, I practiced as a feminist psychologist, but that designation had nothing to do with political beliefs or even traditional thoughts on male-female differences/similarities/pressures, etc. It simply meant that my view of my power and the power of my patient was not traditional. I shared the power of my position with her, the patient. We were essentially equal in making decisions about treatment. I brought formal expertise and knowledge to the work and she brought knowledge of her life. If something I proposed wasn't working that well after a few days, the resulting list of possible reasons why it wasn't working could legitimately come from both of us. Part of my responsibility was to create opportunities for her to share decisions in direction of treatment or, increasingly, to take the lead.

    In the more general field of psychology of women (no therapy here, just the history of and status of women), many theorists such as Jean Baker Miller at Harvard have proclaimed that women have known all along what the world is just discovering......that we are all connected to each other and to the rest of all living things, that existential aloneness doesn't, in fact, make any sense. And it is not how women have lived their lives. We have lived connected to children, husbands, extended family and friends and, in recent decades, have been bold enough to say to men that priorities of traditional male acheivement, with less emphasis on connections, are killing them!! We are tired of living the last 10-15 years of our lives without them!!

    Change is happening on both sides, of course (in developed countries). The ROLES of men and women are relaxing somewhat......women are feeling less restricted in intellectual development and men are feeling less restricted in exploring connections to children, friends, and wives. This is quite remarkable, given that the forces of cultural dogma have changed so little. All one has to do is visit the "girl" and "boy" aisles in a toy store to see how little has changed and how early the training begins!!

    No decade better represents the purposeful ROLE PRESCRIPTIONS of men and women than the 1950s. A handfull of "Ladies" magazines were born to advertise new home appliances designed to help the returning "homemakers" from their wartime jobs. This campaign to glamorize the "queen" of the kitchen coincided with the new fangled television sets, so, soon we saw happy women's faces reflected in glorious floor shine! In case anyone needed the roles spelled out, all one had to do was watch the 50s television series.....Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver, and who can forget Mrs. Nelson in her pearls, cooking??

    I had to make the above "introduction" long, because, hahahahaha, now I have to pull it together to make my point. I think there is a connection (no, the other kind of connection) among Ginny's observation of flatness re: the abortion, the fact of virtually invisible children in the story, April's (and Yates') belief in inevitability of ALONENESS, Yates' less than pristine reputation on female characters and a male author's novel about aloneness written in '61 about the mid 50s.

    What is that connection? Ah, gee, do I have to wrap it up? Can't I just leave it in rhetorical question form?

    .......to be continued.......

    Betty

    betty gregory
    March 9, 2002 - 09:12 am
    .......continued........

    Seriously, the most shocking and painful moments in the book, for me, were the near-abuse of the children. I cannot remember....did the mother, April, have ANY dialogue at all with the children? And this is a story of a pregnant woman??????? Who doesn't speak to her children? I'm probably forgetting a sentence or two of dialogue, but I know everyone will agree that these children are almost invisible, and I find that as disconcerting as Ginny finds the odd, flat abortion details.

    Here's what I think. I think Yates IS saying that we ultimately are alone and I don't believe he achieves his goal.

    What's more important to me, however, are some notes I wrote down toward the end of the book. Remember, a major moment in the book is when April says to Frank right at the end of part I that the most important thing about him is that he is "a man." Part 2 begins as he sheds his nervous, uncertain image of himself (remember the book's opening, side-of-the-road, nervous explosion?), in his new, deliriously happy response to her proclamation that carries him through all his manly posturing of the we're-going phase and calm campaign of persuasion of the we're-staying phase. Just at the point that he feels he has "won," things begin to go downhill again for Frank and April.

    I was not reading, but doing something else and thinking about the book, when the thought came to me and I had to go get my notebook and write down....."Frank doesn't qualify for this role, this role of 'man.' Nobody does."

    This story is about expectations of Frank. Put another way, since this is the 50s, and it's a traditional story, then, of course, the story of ambition has to be through the man, not the woman. But, in our story, the woman has the dreams, but she doesn't know to have them for herself. She grew up in a world where she must live through her husband. That isn't fair to either April or Frank.

    What I am uncertain of is whether or not Yates had any awareness of this irony. I think not, mostly because he didn't really develop April's relationship with her children and left unanswered questions about the abortion. For me....that adds up to an undeveloped April. We are left with Frank play acting his way through life. THAT, if it is intentional from Yates, is important in itself, because the ROLE of man that April bestowed on him is impossible to achieve.. That role expectation leaves them not knowing each other, as all roles do.

    Pardon, please, the overload of thoughts. I'm sure they all fit together somehow, though this is about as close as I can come to a conclusion. I decided to drag out all the small, medium and big bags of semi-thoughts and push them into a pile to look at.

    Betty

    MmeW
    March 9, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    Ginny, In 1962 RR was up against Catch 22 and Walker Percy’s The Moviegoer, which won the National Book Award.

    I tend to agree with Betty: This story is about expectations of Frank. Put another way, since this is the 50s, and it's a traditional story, then, of course, the story of ambition has to be through the man, not the woman. But, in our story, the woman has the dreams, but she doesn't know to have them for herself. She grew up in a world where she must live through her husband. That isn't fair to either April or Frank. And I have to wonder if Yates knew she could have dreams for herself; in other words, it might not be fair, but that’s the way it was. And I do see the unfairness to Frank, who is aware at least of April’s expectations for him. She also doesn’t hesitate to hit below the belt, for example, in the fight after the play: "I’ve always known I had to be your conscience and your guts." In my sympathy (identification with?) April, I tend to forget the very real role burdens that were on men in the 50s.

    I particularly like this, Betty: We are left with Frank play acting his way through life. THAT, if it is intentional from Yates, is important in itself, because the ROLE of man that April bestowed on him is impossible to achieve. That role expectation leaves them not knowing each other, as all roles do. And from all the allusions to plays, speeches, roles in the novel, the concept of role-playing must be very important to what Yates was trying to say.

    Rambler! Ed! Any comments about male expectations in the 50s (or later?)

    Ginny, I feel, like you, that trying to get a handle on this book is like dealing with quicksand (or quicksilver), so I am going to summarize what I can remember without referring to the book.

    Frank is the main character of the novel, written by an male author at least begun in the 50s. We see lots of Frank and get lots of info re his thought processes, at least superficial ones, and these are not particularly sympathetic. We don’t really see a lot of angst, but rather whining, along with attempts to manipulate his wife’s, and others’, moods, as well as a coldly calculating seduction to boost his male ego. Frank has no goals, no plans, no ambitions. We see less of April, but I feel she has more profound thoughts, though they are not often directly revealed. April is unhappy with her life as it is, but lacks the imagination to consider a radical change (without Frank), and so comes up with a plan that Frank cannot disagree with for three reasons: to do so would mean he would have to admit that all his talk was just talk; it requires nothing of him but being there; she throws the "you’re a man" stuff in to prove that he deserves it. But April becomes pregnant, much to Frank’s relief, so the plan must be dropped (or postponed for a time). April becomes more depressed and dissatisfied; Frank becomes more distant

    Now I have to look at the book to see the sequence of events: April sleeps with Shep, but realizes she doesn’t know who he is nor does she know who she is. (loneliness and isolation) A and F begin sleeping apart again. Frank thinks he will solve April’s problems with analysis and breaking off with Maureen (did you notice the Loony Tunes sign-off "That’s All, Folks"?). April doesn’t want to talk about it, but Frank insists "with his bland psychiatrist’s smile," so April lets him have it: "I don’t love you." But, for some reason (why?), Frank decides to tell her about his affair with Maureen, and she says she doesn’t care. Then the visit from John G. After, they argue again, April reiterating that she doesn’t love him, so he finds the perfect exit line, telling her what he felt was "a cleaner breakthrough into truth than he had ever had before," that he wished she had done the abortion. She heads for the woods and stays out there. That evening, she finally comes back in and lays down on the sofa. Frank goes to bed with a bottle of booze. This is why I asked if April does it to spite Frank ("You wanted it, you got it").

    And then the end.

    I think all along, April had been shouldering the hopes of the couple alone, and it finally sunk in that Frank was not the man (or person) she had thought him to be (hoped he would be?). Did it also sink in that she wasn’t the woman she thought she was?

    And I haven’t solved anything.

    Betty: existential aloneness doesn't, in fact, make any sense. And it is not how women have lived their lives. We have lived connected to children, husbands, extended family and friends. But what happens if you don’t have/feel that connection like April? You think in that respect April is an incomplete character, but aren’t there women like that? She also had the early lack of family, role models, yet continued to protest a love for her parents even though they were invisible (finally admitting that she loved their clothes and their lifestyle). (Were they the golden people she sought?) Was that lack reflected in her lack of attention to her own kids? Remember at least two of the three pregnancies she did not want and was talked into by Frank.

    As a psychologist, what is your take on Frank’s thought early on: "How decadent can a society get?… This country’s probably the psychiatric, psychoanalytical capital of the world. … Our whole damn culture is geared to it; it’s the new religion; it’s everybody’s intellectual and spiritual sugar-tit." Especially in view of the latter section where Frank seems to think that a good analyst is going to solve all April’s problems.

    I think I need to stop thinking about this book and begin reading Corr…. (or get a life).

    rambler
    March 9, 2002 - 07:23 pm
    MmeW: I'll have to do some thinking. That'll be a first. Seem to be out of my intellectual league here. (Plus, fiction was never my thing.)

    MmeW
    March 9, 2002 - 07:44 pm
    Rambler, I can relate to a woman's state of mind in the 50s--it's just so hard to know what goes/went on in men's minds (deep inside). But surely you felt some pressure to get a good job, to provide, to succeed, to be strong, etc. (not that women couldn't be strong, also, but there wasn't that pressure) That seems so difficult to me. But maybe it just comes natchurly to men.

    betty gregory
    March 10, 2002 - 01:12 am
    MMeW, could be that Frank was speaking of the Northeast and, maybe, California, when having "an analyst" came into vogue roughly mid-century....along with...wasn't it in the 50s that Freudian, analytical treatment reached its peak? My only special knowledge of this type of therapy is how damaging it is/was to women (and, therefore, to men) and that it (mis)serves rich folks who can pay big bucks for several sessions a week. Psychoanalysis has never undergone rigorous outcome testing.....no one has formally tested to see if it works. Cognitive-behavioral therapies, on the other hand, have undergone thousands of studies over the decades, as it has grown up with the profession. If one needs to cope with a hostile work environment or overcome a paralyzing fear of heights, 6-10 sessions of cognitive-behavioral therapy might fill the bill.

    As much as I dislike Freud, I do give him credit for discovering "the talking cure," the unconscious mind and a whole slew of concepts and words that have become part of the English language. Rationalize, repression, hysterical, unconscious, (Freudian slips), defensive, ego, stream of consciousness, projection, transference, hypnosis. All of these (and many I cannot think of, sitting here) were first used by Freud.

    Want to hear an odd tid bit about Freud? He began in medicine in neurology and his physician mentor was Charcot, in France, late 1800s. (pronounced shar-ko) Charcot and 2 other French men discovered the neuromuscular disease I have......Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease.

    Betty

    rambler
    March 10, 2002 - 10:51 am
    MmeW: Speaking only of myself: "Better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".

    Re men: I can briefly tell you my experiences, feelings. A poor student, I graduated highschool (Minneapolis Central, which no longer exists) in 1950. I had no interest in college--probably couldn't have gotten in anyway. So, to try to earn a decent living, I went to a trade school and learned linotyping (a trade that no longer exists). Then I got drafted into 2 years in the army, which sent me to Germany. By then I had matured enough to be interested in college. Got admitted to the U. of Minn., later transferred to the U. of Chicago. Thanks to the GI Bill and linotyping at The Chicago Tribune and elsewhere, I got a B.A. from the latter in 1961.



    Linotyping paid better than anything my B.A. could get me. But I could see that the skill was becoming obsolete, so in '66 I took an office job (and a big pay cut) writing sales brochures, industrial movie scripts, etc.--work similar to Frank Wheeler's and Ordway's. Stayed with that company 15-plus years, then quit working forever. (Company had a good profit-sharing plan, and I dumped the money onto Wall Street just as the market headed north, far north.)



    Pressure to succeed? Well, at least pressure not to fail. Pressure to provide? Well, married for the only time at age 42, I had no one to provide for until we both retired at age 48.

    rambler
    March 10, 2002 - 05:41 pm
    She cried because she'd had such high, high hopes about the Wheelers tonight and now she was terribly, terribly, terribly disappointed. She cried because she was fifty-six years old and her feet were ugly and swollen and horrible; she cried because none of the girls had liked her at school and none of the boys had liked her later; she cried because Howard Givings was the only man who'd ever asked her to marry him, and because she'd done it, and because her only child was insane.

    Sure sounds like writin' to moi.

    MmeW
    March 11, 2002 - 12:43 am
    Ed, Interesting that you would have had a job similar to Frank's. Did it seems as unrewarding to you as it did to him? (Obviously it wasn't entirely riveting since you were able to tear yourself away at such a young age!) Did booze play a similar role in the work force? (I know, I'm nosy!)

    Yes, that is writin'. And was Helen ever lonely! Perhaps she was the lonliest of all, being at the end of her life, with no open prospects before her, and maybe that's why she was running away harder than anyone. "But soon it was over; all she had to do was go into the bathroom and blow her nose and wash her face and brush her hair." Back to normal.

    Ginny
    March 11, 2002 - 06:54 am
    Wow. I started Corrections last night and could not put it down, it blew me away but it's different. I was afraid of that, was afraid it would break the spell of RR and then came in here and your last few posts since mine should be framed. Please excuse the entusiasm but they all starting with Jo's should be framed.




    Mme asks in the heaidng, this: Does Mrs. Givings really believe this: "That’s what came of good intentions—Try to love your child, and you helped to bring about another mother’s death." Does she truly feel responsible for April’s death? Does she love her child?---Mme

    I found that statement by Mrs. Givings facinating, I think you all have a handle on what Mme called the "quicksilver" of this book.

    Jo with the: She expected life to go a certain way, her son to turn out a certain way, and when her expectations were disappointed, she had to turn away from him

    Wonderful, what a contrast to the first person we meet in The Corrections, huh? Her concluding remarks about the neglect of a “living thing,” I believe to be deliberate irony on Yates’ part, and to have application to the abortion as well as to the lives of these parents

    Outstanding JO!! Wonderful I could NOT understand why Yates put this in.

    What's your take on the quote that Mme put in the heading??




    Rambler, do you feel that men today are stronger or more "manly " than they used to be or less? I know that's a sort of hard question?




    Betty, thank you for that insightful background, I found it fascinating. Loved this:queen" of the kitchen so true, (I have a magnet which my husband HATES which says The Queen Doesn't Cook ) on the fridge hahaahahah.

    Good point on the lack of communicatin with the children, I kept forgetting they had any, and SHEP'S startled me as much as they did him. Still don't understand loathing at the sight of cute kids in jammies, that guy was more messed up than we realize, perhaps.

    This was super, Betty: if it is intentional from Yates, is important in itself, because the ROLE of man that April bestowed on him is impossible to achieve.. That role expectation leaves them not knowing each other, as all roles do.

    more....

    Ginny
    March 11, 2002 - 07:06 am
    I had another book club site recommended to me so I went to look at their Kavalier and Clay discussion and found
  • I hated it
  • I didn't like it, either,
  • What a jerky guy
  • What was he trying to do
  • I didn't like it... that was IT, essentialy, in the way of conversing about a book, what a contrast!!




    Mme: Thank you for the Walker Percy’s The Moviegoer, I have not read that, have any of you? I would like to know how it compares? Is it about loneliness too? Were all the books of the 50' and 60's about loneliness, I wonder....




    MME!! (did you notice the Loony Tunes sign-off "That’s All, Folks"?).

    NONO, I passed right over that like a rocket in sympathy for poor Maureen getting herself all ready for nothing, that was a real killer, that entire episode. I knew I did not admire Frank but had no reason why, I got caught up in the DETACHMENT the entire detached thing, as Rambler says, SUPER writing.

    Were they the golden people she sought? Again, wonderful thought, who WERE these "golden people" whom April thinks of in the last moments of her life?




    I realized yesterday we have another puzzle to solve here, one Rambler asked at the outset:

    What does this mean, Yates thought enough of it to begin the book with it, he must think it had revelance:



    Alas! when passion is both meek, and wild! --John Keats


    What does this mean itself, is it taken out of context, what relevance does it have to this story and why does Mrs. Givings say what she does at the end (in the heading?)....

    ????

    ginny
  • Jo Meander
    March 11, 2002 - 08:32 am
    There isn’t any reason why Frank and April couldn’t eventually incorporate another child into their Paris plans. It’s just that they both know the original enthusiasm is gone. Frank has doubted all along that his talents merited such a drastic action. April now recognizes that she was kidding herself about the nature of her commitment to the cause, and now that she has recognized that she has no understanding of herself and no love for Frank, and Frank has confessed his affair, everything has fallen apart. She doesn’t have a shred of justification or hope for such an undertaking with two or three children to consider in the scheme.



    I’d like to try taking the author at his word, as cited by MmeW, because his word explains so much:
    "If my work has a theme, I suspect it is a simple one: that most human beings are inescapably alone, and therein lies their tragedy.



    Every single character is inescapably alone, and while there is nothing unique about his recognition of the human condition, I think the era emphasizes and deepens that tragedy. Even the car on the cover fits the theme: the station car, an artifact of suburban living, any car for that matter: this is the way we distance ourselves from each other daily, in the ‘50’s and now and forever, probably. When people lived on farms and in villages, or in small neighborhoods where mother’s primary tasks were her home and children, each still experienced that aloneness, but each one of us was closer to and more dependent upon the other. If Grandma and Grandpa weren’t crazy about each other or the kids, too bad! They needed each other for survival, and more often than not they stuck it out to the end, even if the end was bitter. I don’t think my Grandma died feeling that she had been particularly ill used by her irascible husband as she raised his nine kids, one a life-long invalid. She wouldn’t and couldn’t have dreamed of freeing herself from the relationship and the responsibilities! By Yates’s definition, she was, like the rest of us, “inescapably alone,” but her aloneness was in the midst of household and neighborhood survival –bustle; she helped deliver her neighbors’ babies, and I think they reciprocated. My life was a daily trek in the car between a location where I performed certain tasks to please employers who weren’t interested in my personal and family struggles and a house with kids who had too much time and opportunity to be someplace else! Family life in the last half of the 20th century patterns this way: everybody has a way of “escaping,” often enforced escaping, and I think that Yates’s characters illustrate that personal isolation resulting from the mobility and choices life seems to present. Frank drives and takes a train to a nothing job, or so it seems when the story begins (irony again: It gets interesting after she promises to quit and go to Paris), and he indulges in an affair that damages the woman and contributes to, or at least reflects, the splintering of his marriage. April has the opportunity afforded by suburban life to pursue her interest in acting, which doesn’t give her any comfort or hope for better future results, (she gives up on that quickly). Shep chases all over the place trying to escape the Little Lord Fauntleroy life his mother intended him to have, and winds up with what seems to be a burdensome family life, which he realizes at last is the most genuine thing he can hope for. Mrs. Givings makes a career out of the local landscape while her son and husband each retreat to their personal caves. As Yates presents them, each is operating in a personal vacuum, gaining little or no sustenance from the people who “should” be closest to them. I think that’s what he wants us to see. If they wanted or were even forced to take care of each other, they would either cope with it and find some relief from isolation, or go crazy. I think he thinks we often go crazy in our isolation anyway, like John, like April. (Paradox? The cure for isolation is family, the thing we fear and try to escape from!) The only evident courage in the book is the courage to live through it, which April may have believed she was trying to do when she chose her final solution.



    I never ”liked” Frank, but oddly, isn’t he the one who is struggling to live with isolation at the conclusion? Focusing upon the role playing seems right on the mark, to me! The self-imposed roles and those that others encourage us to assume create the slippery slopes to confusion, grief, and self-destruction. Really knowing yourself may be difficult, but accepting limitations seems like the way to avoid disaster. (OK, now let’s hear it from the RISK TAKERS!!!)

    MmeW
    March 11, 2002 - 08:44 pm
    Ginny, I read The Moviegoer "back in the day." I must have liked it, for I read most of the rest of Walker Percy’s canon, but I truly don’t remember it, except for an alienation theme. I stole this off the net: "This novel explores the modern disease characterized by alienation and ennui. The movies in which Binx immerses himself suggest the superficiality and lack of "substance" in his own life." The difference is at the end there is hope for Binx. It takes place in New Orleans and Catholic mysticism is involved.

    Jo, you are so articulate about all this I hesitate to write afterwards because you have said it all just right: "each is operating in a personal vacuum, gaining little or no sustenance from the people who "should" be closest to them," unlike your grandmother. These characters are detached, just dangling out there all alone. Certainly what we don’t see here is the extended family at all, the break-up of which is due to the mobility of the last half of the century and the suburbs, to some extent. "Paradox? The cure for isolation is family, the thing we fear and try to escape from!" How true…. And how sad.

    "Really knowing yourself may be difficult, but accepting limitations seems like the way to avoid disaster." It occurs to me that Milly may be an example of this. She has undergone quite a change since her farm days, has been able to adapt to many changes and doesn’t seem all that upset or introspective about it. She does defer to Shep when she asks if he doesn’t think the Wheelers have become a little stuck-up, but she recognizes that they are really poseurs. (I may be totally offbase about this, but I’m too tired today to reread Milly parts.)

    I’m certainly not a risk-taker (I broke out in hives when I set off for Paris alone), so I can’t give you that side.

    betty gregory
    March 11, 2002 - 11:10 pm
    The more I think about it, the clearer it seems that Yates incorporates many examples of role-playing throughout the book. He begins the book with a play. Others have written of examples of role-playing toward the end of the book. To repeat one......Shep and Millie are making the rounds with their Frank-and-April play, with Shep being cued for his scripted words.....was it Ginny who mentioned Shep breaking free for only a minute, then relenting and taking up his part again in the script? (Pardon me for not remembering who mentioned Shep.)

    The less obvious "plays" would include any behavior that is expected, or already "scripted," such as April's expectation (directly from the 1950s' culture) that Frank be "a man." And, for a short while, April went along with her scripted part of moral woman, expectant mother who would keep her baby. (This is a new thought for me.....that April, did, indeed, break free and do something on her own.)

    The absence of roles would be authentic behavior.....just being yourself, without need of outside understanding or approval. Writing your own script, as a favorite author of mine says.

    Too bad that Yates has suggested that aloneness is inevitable. I might say back to him that living scripted lives, role-playing, is a good way to guarantee feeling isolated, but that it isn't inevitable. (He reports role-playing in this book in such a way to make a reader think that he strongly questions it, if not condemns it.)

    Living authentically is at the heart of feeling connected to other people, I would say. Tell the truth to someone in a conversation, especially personal truth, and you decrease the distance between you instantly. That's why we warm to people who are "down to eath," not those who "put on airs," as the old description goes. Easier talked about than done, though. We've all learned our parts so well.

    The amazing thing about this author is that he gave us an intimate tour inside someone who was the very opposite of authentic.....poor old Frank with his jaw posing and mirror gazing. Without that inside look, I wouldn't be saying, "poor old Frank." So, Yates is saying something about corruption. Something has corrupted the natural Frank. There he is, pacing about the room, drink in hand, ......I'm tempted to say.......a meek passion masquerading as wild. That's forced, though, because I really don't know what the quote is about (hahaha, trying to stay authentic here). I'm safer saying what I believe, that gender roles keep us from being who we are naturally.....or would be naturally. (My first time in college in the late 60s, I was working on a teaching degree, because everyone told me that what I wanted to do, be a band director, wasn't for "girls.")

    I wonder what April would have become, had she gone on to Paris with her 3 children? Or, going back further, would Frank even have been a part of her life?

    Betty

    Jo Meander
    March 11, 2002 - 11:46 pm
    MmeW, I think Milly may be the happiest character in the story, even though she has to keep looking to Shep to reinforce her remarks to the new neighbors (about being closer after witnessing and living through the Wheeler disaster). She seems to be just going about her business, for the most part, but then again the author never deals with her internal life.
    Betty, I keep wondering how the characters would have to be different in order to have them pack up and go to Paris! I imagine them waiting a bit for the baby to grow, maybe even a couple of years, and then just packing it in and flying away! They would have to have great love for each other and faith in their abilities to make it together no matter how career things developed, or didn't. A fairy tale, maybe! This begs the question about April without Frank; I think April needed somebodywhen she married him, and she was looking for her lifetime cause, a serious commitment, to fill in the hollow spaces left by an unhappy childhood. Maybe it didn't matter who she married or where she went. She was in trouble no matter what, and choosing Frank just made things worse, because he didn't know who he was, either! Two souls foundered on the rocks!

    Jo Meander
    March 11, 2002 - 11:49 pm
    Maybe before this part of the discussion is over we need to talk about what John Givings thought April and Frank should be vs. what they actually were! Remember the day they wandered in the woods together talking about the radio shows they listened to as children? I think that was the happiest day they had!

    Ginny
    March 12, 2002 - 09:43 am
    Super JO!! Gosh you're sooo on it! That whole post 180 should be put somewhere permanent!

    Brilliant!!!!!!!

    Loved it! And this:

    everybody has a way of “escaping,” often enforced escaping,

    and

    As Yates presents them, each is operating in a personal vacuum, gaining little or no sustenance from the people who “should” be closest to them.

    Wonderful points!




    Mme: thank you for this, it appears that the novels of 1961 were disaffected, to say the least, I can't remember WHY? Was it a reaction to the Eisenhower years, the 50's which I had always thought were peaceful and prosperous? Chicken in every pot? Harmony and hope? What went wrong?

    This novel explores the modern disease characterized by alienation and ennui. The movies in which Binx immerses himself suggest the superficiality and lack of "substance" in his own life."

    When was the Korean "conflict?" Did that have anything to do with this disaffection?? I just can't REMEMBER the 50's and early 60's, was too busy growing up.




    Betty, great stab at the Keats quote, how on earth that fits in with this book is lost on me, ALAS when passion is both meek and wild?

    I liked your stab at it : ......I'm tempted to say.......a meek passion masquerading as wild.

    That masquerade stuff again! A meek passion....who in the book has a meek passion? And who is wild?...uh and what IS a meek passion?

    Usually when an author puts a quote in the front of a book. would we say he's saying that influenced him or has something to DOO with the book?

    You've come up with more than I did, hahaahaha.

    This was good, I thought:

    The absence of roles would be authentic behavior.....just being yourself, without need of outside understanding or approval. Writing your own script, as a favorite author of mine says.

    I think in real life this is almost impossible. When you do pull off the mask and let the imperfect person within out people are shocked, recoil and are threatened, not exactly what you hoped to achieve with your own revelation that you, too, have a temper and can say something you feel.




    That's an excellent question, Jo, I'll put it up in the heading, I have no clue nor understanding of why I tended to skip over John's remarks? I guess I don't particularly see truth in madness.

    I wonder, having said that, which OF these characters I do see as representing truth?

    HMMM?

    I guess I need to ponder that one, too, who knew there was so much to think about here?




    Do any of you have any other questions to add to the heading in the last days of discussing this book? And what do you think of Jo's question and do you have any insights on the Keats quote?

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 12, 2002 - 12:01 pm
    Betty: "Something has corrupted the natural Frank. There he is, pacing about the room, drink in hand, ......I'm tempted to say.......a meek passion masquerading as wild." I wonder if what corrupted the natural Frank was that the first time he revealed a big dream (riding the rails), Krebs made a mockery of it; or maybe because his father robbed him of self-confidence in the workshop.

    I think Keat’s quote refers to the fact that they have "wild" dreams/passions, but lack the boldness to carry them out (they’re too meek) or perhaps meek because they are too easily deterred (i.e., Krebs, pregnancy).

    Ginny
    March 12, 2002 - 12:28 pm
    OH GOOD POINT, MME!!!!!!!

    Wild passion and dreams who doesn't have them? But meek in temperament and thus not able to carry them out? BOY can I relate to that, well done!!!!!!!!

    I like it?

    ginny

    Jo Meander
    March 12, 2002 - 06:58 pm
    MmeW, I think you've got it!
    And, if that's why Yates included the quote, then I think that's why John Givings was so angry when he found out they weren't going to Paris!

    Ginny
    March 13, 2002 - 05:21 am
    YES Jo, YES!!!

    Yes, and it applies to so many things in life, as well ,the longer you look at it!!

    Oh boy, who knew?

    I'm deep into The Corrections now, how about the rest of you? I will break all our rules here and say I love it, love it, love it and look forward to the Ides ofo March in 2 more days when we can launch into it. Meanwhile I carry it everywhere, read it before bed and just absolutely love it and look forward to looking at it with THIS group, you can all pat yourselves on the back.

    I am finding that looking at the book as a whole, however, even one as rich as this RR does not sustain a discussion for 30 days? It would seem that the "Read Along With Mitch" thing that we usually do in the Book Club Online, that is, what we will do for Sea, The Sea which Lorrie will lead in April, is look at the first 100 or so pages ONLY in the first week?

    In that way it seems that our discussion is more spread out over the month.

    What do you think? This is the first time we've done a whole book at a time in some time.

    I welcome your comments on this method of discussiing or any other thing here in the waning hours of this discussion




    I'd like to take a look at this question by Mme, (because I don't know the answer to Jo's) hahaahahha and I don't really know the answer to this one:

    <blockqutote>

    Does Mrs. Givings really believe this: "That’s what came of good intentions—Try to love your child, and you helped to bring about another mother’s death." Does she truly feel responsible for April’s death? Does she love her child?---Mme

    I was struck by the word "try" in this sentence? Try to love your child.

    If you have to try to love your child you need therapy, in my opinion. I realize that John is a problem probably insurmountable and I myself probably would not do well with such a problem, but to me, the focus of that remark is Mrs. Givings and her own martyred existence. Try to love your child, sigh sigh and YOU bring about somebody else's death, YOU YOU YOU the world revolves around YOU.

    And yes I see the parallels immediately to The Corrections, but more later on.

    The word "try" is like a red flag to me. Did it ring any bells with you all?

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 13, 2002 - 10:52 pm
    Ginny--I have just started the Corrections and love it. Obviously I won't get it done in time, but I have finished the first chapter and I'm astounded! How did Franzen peek into my house and figure out my filing system???

    Jo Meander
    March 13, 2002 - 11:15 pm
    Perhaps Yates believes that ALL of our passions exceed our abilities to fulfill them. Even Mrs. Givings wanted to make things better, but was limited, partly because her "problem" (John!) was so overwhelming. On the other hand, Frank seemed passionless, to me, which brings him into sharp contrast with April, who (like Mrs. G.) "tried" to believe that the future held possibilities.
    Mrs.Givings was doing her best. The author takes care to let us see that she has a history of sorrow and disappointment (superficial reasons, maybe, but then that's what she is!), and then lets us see her recovering her usual go-with-the flow demeanor. Maybe she didn't have the capacity to love John deeply, but she did look for ways to help him.
    John.'s craziness feeds upon the lack of passion and conviction he finds in human nature. He wanted April and Frank to have that passion, and he's bitterly disappointed when they don't . He blames Frank rather than April for that, and that was perceptive.
    Fits Keats!

    Ginny
    March 14, 2002 - 05:30 am
    Yes, you're right again, Jo, and I finished The Corrections yesterday in the car repair shop and I can now, finally, after completing the book, see why RR would have come up in the first place in the review.




    I was really struck this time by my perception of Mrs. Givings. As I said when I read it in 1961 she seemed a horrid old caricature, now she's only mid 50's. I'm not sure Yates has succeeded, IF that were his plan, in making her sympathetic, tho, and that quote almost accentuates a sort of .....I don't know what you CALL that kind of rationalization, but it's not laudable. It's....making excuses, I guess, evading the truth. Which is also what the book is about.




    Here are some interesting last minute quotes on Yates from the celebrated author Richard Russo, author of Empire Falls and Nobody's Fool, who wrote the introduction to the new book out on Yates which has all of his short stories (some of which have not been printed before).

    Some day I hope to read Russo here with our book groups, himself, let's see if there's any interest for this Fall?



    Because Richard Yates, in his quiet way, remains one of the most subersive writers I know. Critics have pointed out that Yates subverted the American character in his fiction, and it’s true that there’s much the author found empty and even harmful in American institutions and American culture. But it’s not just our “American” character that Yates lays bare in these stories. It’s our deepest human nature.

    Peel away the carefully constructed layers of self-deception, and we discover that too often we’re all simply horse traders, eager to move up in the world by swapping a shabby job, house, friend, spouse, even child, for a newer, better one. It’s being traded, or knowing that we would be traded if we could be, that on occasion allows Yates’s characters to see things in what one of them calls ‘the clear light of self-hatred.”

    Such brutal insights, I suspect, along with what Yates’s former student and friend, the writer Robert Lacy, has referred to as his “seemingly congenital inability to sugarcoat, “ that may be the reason Yates never sold well in life and why, for a time, at least, his fiction has been allowed to slip out of print.

    And it’s also probably the reason some critics have wistfully regretted the fact that the stories hold out so little hope, even accusing Yates of reveling in the failures his characters must endure. There may be some truth to the charge.

    The excitement one feels reading these dark stories, I believe, is the exhilaration of encountering , recognizing, and embracing the truth. It’s not a pretty truth? Too bad. That we recognize ourselves in the blindness, the neediness, the loneliness, even the cruelty of Yates’s people will have to suffice.



    and this: (by the way, Ed, Russo makes a parallel to Gatsby too, “Just as Gatsby dies whithout understanding what has befallen him, so do Yates’s characters struggle in vain for self-knowledge).” Maybe that’s what Vonnegut meant?

    Indeed, Yates suggests, it may even be this worst of night terrors- of ending up alone in the world and trying to smile—that is responsible for our most tragic human blindness, our eager willingness to confuse what is true with what we want to be true.

    In the end I think it is Yates’s relentless, unflinching investigation of our secret hearts, and his speaking to us in language as clear and honest and unadorned and unsentimental and Uncompromising as his vision, that makes him such a great writer.




    I agree. Aren’t you glad that B&N reviewer mentioned RR in connection with The Corrections?

    ginny

    betty gregory
    March 14, 2002 - 10:26 am
    Regarding truth, I watched the last half of a television biography on Gloria Steinem (spelling?) yesterday. Grinning wickedly, she said one of her favorite sayings is......"The truth will set you free.....but, first, it will piss you off."

    Betty

    Jo Meander
    March 14, 2002 - 11:36 am
    Most human beings don't even know they are "evading" the truth ... so, is that evading? A very helpful review, Ginny, nevertheless.
    Love the Steinem quote, Betty!

    Ginny
    March 14, 2002 - 01:28 pm
    Jo, I thought that was what epiphanies were all about? Realizing the truth? Then you know you evaded? And how long. And in what way?

    So when you have an author who shows you the evasion (and were most of the characters aware they were evading? I thought they were, maybe not) and then the character's dawning awareness of it, it's doubly powerful, perhaps.

    (Personally I'm so taken with Russo's powers of expression have started Empire Falls which is another of the books highly voted on recently)....I like the way he expresses himself.

    Betty, what an interesting quote, why should it make anybody angry? What interesting things you are both saying here at the end. She's such an interesting person, isn't she?

    I've only found two "corrections" labelled Corrections in The Corrections , but I read very fast in the car waiting room yesterday, but a lot of moments of awareness of truth and the evading of same, this is going to be very interesting.

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 14, 2002 - 01:42 pm
    Oh I do need to thank Jane DeNeve for the super templates she prepared of your Issues and Topics Identified in RR and your Questions, Sarah will take the helm tomorrow and I know it will be super, so wanted to mention that.

    Mme, me TOO!!@! I felt strangely justified for a while reading that, it's SOOO MOI!!!

    I mean you have no idea, hahaahahahaa

    I wonder that that says about a person, my husband and I are direct opposites. I can't stand clutter. Can't stand a counter filled up with junk. Need to look at sleekness, shine, shine everywhere but don't open a closet you'll be killed by flying debris and I'm not kidding (hey it's my last day here I can natter) and don't open a drawer (as if you could ) you will lose a hand trying to get something out.

    How can you stand that he says? Out of sight out of mind, I say, and unfortunately it's sooooo true. I don't know why the house doesn't sink into the ground....er....but I digress?

    ahahahahah

    But Enid is me in the first chapter, there with the overwhelming bills and magazines and STUFF STUFF STUFF!

    Now I feel better? ahahahahhaah

    You probably don't. haahahahah

    '

    ginny

    betty gregory
    March 14, 2002 - 02:31 pm
    Ah, yes, different styles of living/comfort (can't resist responding)......I'm speaking of the nice woman who comes to clean and put my house in order (since these things are beyond me, physically). She and I are SO opposite in priority (and habit?)

    Would you believe that the INSIDE of my kitchen cabinets are arranged with military precision.......cans lined up, boxes lined up by height. The same for under-the-sink cabinet in kitchen and bathroom. I appreciate these things, but I never would have thought of them.

    That's neither here nor there, but her idea of vacuuming is to fly down walking paths, barely reaching the top layer of dust. Within only a few minutes of the vacuum cleaner sound beginning, it's over and she's "finished," whereas my idea of vacuuming the carpet is moving furniture, going over the same little area again and again, getting down on hands and knees to work on wall edges and corners. For me, squeaky-clean floors and extra-clean carpet always beats out every other cleaning or organizing task. That's not to be with this current cleaner, though I've tried explaining what I wanted. I value Trisha for other things, I have to keep reminding myself. I don't have the guts to ask her to do what I think will work......set a timer and she must keep vacuuming until the timer goes off.

    My drawers and closets were not quite that bad, Ginny, and I've even learned to pare down and give away, to create space. BUT, the general need to SEE clean and shiny while the disorganized stuff is out of sight.....Oh, yes, indeed, I know that well. Except for one corner of my bedroom where desk and computer clutter is ok (but not out of hand), I don't want to SEE clutter anywhere else.

    Clutter as an interim topic. If we believed in psychoanalysis, which I don't, we could interpret this. We could anyway.

    Betty

    Jo Meander
    March 14, 2002 - 05:42 pm
    Perpetually fighting clutter - - that's me! Mail is the biggest bear; I can't decide soon enough if I should throw something away or not. And then there are the closets and drawers full of clothes I might fit into again, sometime! Like Enid, I cut out coupons which expire, but I thow them away sooner.

    Jo Meander
    March 14, 2002 - 07:04 pm
    Ginny, I meant that most people never have those epiphanies. In the story, Frank never does. April and Shep do.
    I think Steinem refers to the fact that self-recognition or recognition of truths that clash with our cherished beliefs are painful.
    I've only found one "correction" reference so far, but I'm only one-third of the way through the book!

    MmeW
    March 14, 2002 - 07:49 pm
    Hi, guys--I'll probably be absent for the first part of this discussion because my reading is going very slowly. I just love his writing, his Proustian sentences, his analogies, and I refuse to fly through. I know I could go back, but would I? I do find myself laughing out loud.

    My brother just "read" RR because I asked him to, and here is his response in a nutshell: It's like a cross between Salinger's Nine Stories and American Beauty (interesting that he saw that connection, too). He also thinks the book is timeless (universal); but said the dialogue was stilted (I can imagine on tape!) kind of like the Truman Show. But he really liked it and I know he'll like TCorr, whenever they get it on Nat'l Library Service for the Blind.

    Ginny--Richard Russo's Straight Man is one of my favorite books. Can't wait to read Empire Falls (I voted for it in hopes that I'd be forced to read it sooner), but it'll have to come after Widow for One Year and Poisonwood Bible. I am terrible about saving books, and salivating over them, until I really need some "nourishment."

    Jo--Great interpretation of Steinem's quote. I guess that's what interventions are all about.

    Ginny
    March 15, 2002 - 06:03 am
    Hey MME! Love your brother's analysis of RR, isn't that something he saw the American Beauty as well and ooooo The Truman Show, ooooo, now there's another fascinating comparison. LOVE that! Thanks for bringing that here.

    Would you believe I have never read Russo either? I wonder if I have been under a rock for a while? Thanks to our book clubs here I'm really getting to read some super things, thank you for mentioning Straight Man, I'll get it on my trip this weekend, already have Empire Falls and quite a few people voted for it, I think we will have to consider offering it this Fall, we're happily filling up the slate till at least July as it is. A year's good reading!

    Of course our Sarah is on the West Coast and I'm off this morning for a Girl's Weekend Off in the Big City, and since several of you have not fnished the book, I won't make any thoughts here on it today, before I see what Sarah wants to begin with.

    But just to say I laughed out loud, too, Mme, in places. It's quite an accomplishment.

    Jo, hahahaa, ingenuous, aren't I? I bet you could choke me hahahahahaah

    As Frank would say, No....when I first read that quote, (I know you and Betty will scalp me alive here) I thought, well heckers, I guess so, after railing against marriage all her life she now finds it suits after all (I know, I know, I know) ......

    But the entire concept of when you find out "the truth" (I'm not talking about intervention here or drug abuse, I'm talking about the small still truths we build our own lives on, our "cherished beliefs"...)(and who tells you it IS the truth?) What consitiutes truth is it just another of your own opinions or perceptions in the first place?

    Or is it what others have always "known," or thought suddenly brought to your atttention and thus merely their truths?

    ??

    See what I mean? I'm not putting it well. But if you have a long cherished belief and you suddenly find out it was "wrong," or the "truth" seems to be different, seems to lie elsewhere, then Steinheim becomes angry, and I was sort of trying to say that that, possibly, in itself is an untruth? And shows a lot about her own character?

    Not sure I"m making any sense at all, but we can possibly see why I did not do well in philosophy?

    Anyway, the truth here is, I'm off for the weekend and hope to see you all happily chewing the book apart on Monday, it's quite a feast, or so I thought.

    Talk about a book putting you thru a wringer, but you know something? I will say this much: I learned something about myself and my own relationship with my sons from reading this book and I'm really grateful, am taking it to heart....am not angry just grateful.

    See you all on Monday!

    ginny

    SarahT
    March 15, 2002 - 01:28 pm
    Hi folks -

    Let's start off with a brief discussion of The Corrections, followed by a more lengthy comparison between it and Revolutionary Road. Ginny has done a stellar job so far - as have you - and I cannot promise that I'll be anywhere as lively, but here goes.

    First of all, is everyone done with Corrections? Has everyone at least started it?

    Any first impressions? I was struck at the very beginning by the density of language. It was as if Franzen was putting us inside Alfred's head - and it was a very confused and unsettling place to be. I actually began the book unclear whether it was Enid or Alfred that was more impaired, since confusion and fuzziness reigned throughout their home.

    Then we meet Chip and begin to realize that this docile couple has a history that is very different. It always shocks me that people like Alfred who so intimidate their children can fade away to befuddledness. How is a child to react? All of the old angry feelings still remain, and yet the parent is no longer what he once was. How is a child to change course so quickly. I suspect this is one of the core issues facing middle aged kids with aging parents.

    And how do the parents feel when their kids begin to treat them like children. They lose the sway and power they once had and begin to feel minimized and marginalized. These dynamics fascinate me since they are so much a part of my own family as I get older.

    What do you think of the writing - do you relate to these characters, do they ring true to you? Other first impressions?

    MmeW
    March 15, 2002 - 06:51 pm
    Of course I had to take a peek at the discussion. Sarah, you took my very words--I told my brother the writing is so dense. Franzen packs about a bazillion things to think about on each page. I find myself wondering about names, too. None of his names are easy, so they must be there for a reason. As I said, I'm not sure I relate to Enid, but I know I sure have her filing system (I'm working on that). Then my daughter-in-law sent me a joke today that reminded me of the Lamberts:

    An elderly man in Phoenix calls his son in New York and says, "I hate to ruin your day, but I have to tell you that your mother and I are divorcing; forty-five years of misery is enough."

    "Pop, what are you talking about?" the son screams. "We can't stand the sight of each other any longer," the old man says. "We're sick of each other, and I'm sick of talking about this, so you call your sister in Chicago and tell her."

    Frantic, the son calls his sister, who explodes on the phone. "Like heck they're getting divorced," she shouts, "I'll take care of this." She calls Phoenix immediately, and screams at the old man, "You are NOT getting divorced. Don't do a single thing until I get there. I'm calling my brother back, and we'll both be there tomorrow. Until then, don't do a thing, DO YOU HEAR ME?" and hangs up.

    The old man hangs up his phone and turns to his wife. "Okay," he says, "they're coming for Thanksgiving and paying their own fares . . . Now what do we do for Christmas?"

    SarahT
    March 15, 2002 - 09:49 pm
    MmeW, good point about the names - I have to look back at the book each time to remember them!

    Do you think Enid's "filing system" is something new, or has she always been this disorganized? Somehow, I suspect she's always been disorganized, but the author wants us to be spooked by how terrible it is to be old and disorganized. I find it very depressing to think of Enid's and Alfred's home - the big blue chair, the Ping Pong table, the old copies of Good Housekeeping, the coupons, the alarm bell that rings throughout the house. I suspect Franzen wants us to feel this way. There is a way in which he completely lacks empathy for his older characters. It's almost as if he's giving us an object lesson about how not to be when we get old. And where not to be - we should not be in the midwest, where the railroad no longer runs, where "one-elevator towns" face diminishing, and aging populations.

    What kind of commentary is on what it is like to grow older?

    Jo Meander
    March 15, 2002 - 10:20 pm
    Hi, Sarah! I just typed a rather lengthy post andl lost it! Maddening! Anyway, I'm around p.200, the "Gary" section. I was trying to address the aging question, but I'll have to wait until Monday, I think! A busy weekend coming up. I hope to join you soon, though.
    Ginny said, But the entire concept of when you find out "the truth" (I'm not talking about intervention here or drug abuse, I'm talking about the small still truths we build our own lives on, our "cherished beliefs"...)(and who tells you it IS the truth?) What consitiutes truth is it just another of your own opinions or perceptions in the first place?
    Good one! We could launch a full-blown philosophy discussion on that alone! Is anything TRUE, Ginny (apart from the fact that you are away for the weekend), or is everything "perception"???

    MmeW
    March 16, 2002 - 10:34 am
    I think the bad thing about being old and disorganized is that you have accumulated so much more to be disorganized about (the old coupons)--the detritus of a life. And the alarm--ask not for whom…. Actually, I found that first chapter quite eerie. And in a way I think it was sympathetic. At least we get some insight into the inner workings of Enid and Alfred. And we see Alfred’s frustrations as he deals with "his affliction."

    And it seems to me there are good things about being in a small town in the Midwest--the traditions at Christmas, the fact that you know so many people. However, I haven’t finished the book yet. I wonder about Alfred’s intransigence about the patent, his precipitous retirement--only seven more weeks to a higher pension, his refusal to listen to the advice of his wife and kids. Where is this going?

    I, too, am to the Gary section, and I could really relate to the scene where Enid is trying to get him to commit for Christmas (and then ballet tickets) and he is trying to deal with his family at the same time. (I’m sure I’ve done the same thing--I’m trying to plan for the future and my kids are struggling to keep up with the present.) It reminded me of Harry Chapin’s old song Cat’s in the Cradle.

    I’m having trouble seeing this book as a whole, partially because Franzen goes off on so many tangents, some of which seem to be just a display of satirical virtuosity (Gitanas’s Lithuania, Ltd.) Maybe it will all come together.

    SarahT
    March 16, 2002 - 11:04 am
    Jo, ah yes, "truth"! I have often had that philosophical battle with myself - although less as I get older, oddly enough! I wonder why that is. Sorry you lost your post - I just hate that. I sometimes hit a button on my computer and lose a post, and I can never figure out which button so I can avoid it next time. Don't despair - sometimes it's better the second time, contrary to popular belief.

    MmeW - yes! I am not yet a senior, but I remember when I realized I was an "adult" I was frustrated with how much "detritus of life" - great phrase - I had accumulated. And it wasn't just stuff, it was people - a dentist, a doctor, an OB/gyn, an accountant, an insurance agent, etc etc. I wondered how things had become so complicated. When I was in my 20s, I moved from one house to the other with one trip of a borrowed small pickup truck.

    On Alfred's intransigence - I suspect he has always been stubborn and not much of a listener (one certainly picks that up in Chip's section). Once again, Franzen seems to be making Alfred's natural way of being more ominous and frustrating because he also has Parkinson's, is old, is fading.

    Does Parkinson's cause mental deterioration in addition to the physical? We certainly get that here, and I honestly didn't know that.

    On living in the midwest, in the part of the country that is losing population - I'd like to hear from others. What does it feel like to live in towns that seem to be fading away? I live in San Francisco (a native!) and often feel the same feeling in reverve - I want things to go back to the way they were when I was a kid and it wasn't so crowded, and people were really nice to each other.

    Is anyone else out there reading Corrections?

    Ed Zivitz
    March 17, 2002 - 11:02 am
    Jo: One person's perception is another person's truth or reality. If you are talking about "absolute truth",personally,I don't believe that absolute truth exists. By absolute truth I mean something that is true for everyone at the same time for all time,past,present and future.

    When I was reading The Corrections, I had to keep a large dictionary at hand.I cannot recall a book where I had to look up so many words. I enjoyed this book immensely,but I'm not sure it should have won the National Book Award.

    The blue chair...maybe the last vestige of Alfred's life,that is slipping away Perhaps a Lear-like throne,reigning over a family that no longer exists (except in Enid's cluttered mind)

    SarahT
    March 17, 2002 - 10:36 pm
    Ed - beautifully put! Why shouldn't this book have won the National Book Award, or any ohter?

    I do find myself shying away more and more from the genre of books that paints the family as a complete disaster area, in which nothing ever goes right. While it may portray truth, this genre makes me wonder if there isn't more to life than focusing on our own interior foibles. Perhaps that says a lot about where I am in my life - tired of all that interior examination, perhaps, and more interested in the exterior world.

    Is anyone else out there reading along with us? What are your first impressions of this book?

    Or would you prefer to move directly to a comparison of the this book and Revolutionary Road - your wish is my command!

    Ginny
    March 18, 2002 - 10:43 am
    HI, I'm back (that's the truth) or maybe not, as Ed says hahahaahaha,

    Jo, right on, let's do it! We could spend a year discussing TRUTH in The Corrections, perhaps? Truth of old age. Truth of being marginalized, Sarah has put her finger in a hornet's nest! hahahahaha

    Sarah, great start as per usual!! You asked And how do the parents feel when their kids begin to treat them like children. They lose the sway and power they once had and begin to feel minimized and marginalized. These dynamics fascinate me since they are so much a part of my own family as I get older.

    What do you think of the writing - do you relate to these characters, do they ring true to you? Other first impressions?


    What a fascinating question as per usual. ... how do the parents feel when their kids begin to treat them like children. They lose the sway and power they once had and begin to feel minimized and marginalized.

    What power? What sway?

    Age, I'm finding, does a lot in that direction all by itself. RETIREMENT does a really nice job of that. Suddenly you dwell in the Land of Used to Be, and it's so ironic because now that you have all this wisdom (supposedly, I must have missed the sign up sheet for passing out wisdom) who wants to hear it?

    You trade on "used to be" unless of course you're a DOER! You know, all those 90 year olds climbing Annapurna?

    Now why should one's children treat one like a child? Are there some parents who welcome such a thing and if so , whose need does it fill most?

    I think that's the key to Enid.

    Old and disorganized? Enid has all she can do to deal with trying to organize Alfred into a semblance of "normal." . Enid does not have time to organize her coupons, she's trying to combat the ferocious changes in Alfred.

    How this author managed to put us in the terrible miasma which is my own life of disorganization since I found these enticing, exciting, marvelously inventive book clubs on SeniorNet is beyond me, but he does.

    We ARE there with Enid, (andn that is how it feels) we're there with Alfred, we're there with the kids, first this one, then that one, Chip off the old shoulder, huh?

    Ed, I think this book does deserve the National Book Award, it's amazingly powerful for such a young writer to have written, in places he does slide back into the "child," but most of the time you see the situation from ALL the points of view, each one of the, the Alfred section is a tour de force, the book does form a cohesive whole, I loved it (I know you're not supposed to say that but I loved it).

    So who plans to get old? Who wakes up and says, oh by the way, today I believe I'll forget where the bathroom is? Who plans to be married to that person, won't our lives go on as they always have?

    This young man is not even a Boomer, he's not even in the sandwich generation, he's YOUNG, how DID he accomplish this incredible feat? It's amazing, you swing back and forth and back and forth, barely noticing how he has carefully structured the plot.

    Of all the characters I found Densie the weakest and less well drawn and Gary the most "true," and the entire thing is heartbreaking and very clever.

    Just the small touches: Alfred, in the midst of horrendously embarrassing situations, with his stilted, formal and courteous way of speaking, it's soooo good.

    (Me, too, Ed, looking up the words, isn't that fun? LOONG time since I've had that pleasure.)

    The entire book is a stunner and full of....."truths?"

    ginny

    Jo Meander
    March 18, 2002 - 11:08 am
    Ahhh ... good stuff! I don't know where to start! Be back!

    patwest
    March 18, 2002 - 01:20 pm
    Ginny: Old and disorganized... Change the names in this book and I could be a leading character.

    The entire book is a stunner and full of....."truths?" .. Ah yes, and I do feel definitely 'intimidated' when my daughter stops by to check on us... Slowly declining into 'uselessness' and you don't realize it until you wake up one day... and wonder where is the drive... energy.. vision.. that woke us early every morning.

    SarahT
    March 18, 2002 - 02:29 pm
    PatW - did you ever see the movie "Home for the Holidays." The dutiful daughter feels burdened by her need to constantly check on what she perceives to be doddering parents, and her mother is fed up with her constant checking up on them!

    MmeW
    March 18, 2002 - 08:10 pm
    I'm still working--finally finished Gary's section. Interesting how Denise worries about her father's feelings ("he has an internal life") and Gary worries about his mother's feelings, and gets more than a little irritated when Enid brags on Denise. Did Chip worry about either of them? But then, he's the middle child, in need of attention, self-absorbed.

    I'm entering the Enid/Alfred section with fear and trembling.

    SarahT
    March 18, 2002 - 10:38 pm
    Welcome back our Ginny! Such good points: "So who plans to get old? Who wakes up and says, oh by the way, today I believe I'll forget where the bathroom is? Who plans to be married to that person, won't our lives go on as they always have?"

    This is the essence of all of my fears of getting older, captured in a sentence. All of us say we never wanted to get so old that we lose our faculties, and somehow vow not to let that happen, but you're right, Ginny, that moment of truth never arrives where we see where we're going and have the power somehow to change our destiny.

    MmeW, while I agree that Chip was terribly self absorbed, I also found his section quite humorous. The section on his girlfriend Julia's Lithuanian husband Gitanas is hilarious: "She found a competent hairstylist for Gitanas and taught him how to pick out clothes with natural fibers. Things seemed to be going great. But somewhere she and Gitanas must have misunderstood each other, because when his party (the VIPPAKJRIINPB17: the One True Party Unswervingly Dedicated to the Revanchist Ideals of Kazimieras Jaramaitis and the "Independent" Plebiscite of April Seventeen) lost a September election and recalled him to Vilnius to join the parliamentary oppostion, he took it for granted that Julia would come along with him."

    And this gem: "Now, as his [Chip's] telephone rang, it occurred to him that a depressed person ought to continue staring at the TV and ignore the rigining - outght to light another cigarette and, with no trace of emotional affect, watch another cartoon while his matchine took whoever's message. That his impulse, instead, was to jump to his feet and answer the phone - that he could so casually betray the arduous wasting of a day - cast doubt on the authenticity of his suffering. He felt as if he lacked the ability to lose all volition and connection with rality the way depressed people did in books and movies. It seemed to him, as he silenced the TV and hurried into his kitchen, that he was failing even at the miserable task of falling properly apart."

    Franzen can truly capture an absolute truth better than just about anyone!

    MmeW
    March 19, 2002 - 12:49 am
    Sarah, the problem, as I hinted at before, is that Franzen is almost writing two books--one about a disfunctional family and one a very clever riff on various aspects of society (I termed it "a display of satirical virtuosity") like the Gitanas episode or the Correcktall PR function. I find the riffs disconcerting, as funny as they are (some of them do go on); I guess they add to the atmosphere of unreality (or spinning out of control) that Chip and Gary feel, but....

    Ginny
    March 19, 2002 - 06:26 am
    Mme has just made a splendid point: the dysfunctional family.

    Every time a review or a comment comes out about this book, the words "dysfunctional family" accompany them, have you noticed?

    Several of our own Books family here said oh no another book, yet another book about the dysfunctional family!!!

    But IS it? What's dysfunctional? Chip leaving his own apartment when they come to visit? That seems strange (I hate to.....talk about certain areas because am not sure where everybody is)....but every family has issues IS there a family without issues in the world?

    What is "functional?"

    And Sarah says " All of us say we never wanted to get so old that we lose our faculties, and somehow vow not to let that happen, but you're right, Ginny, that moment of truth never arrives where we see where we're going and have the power somehow to change our destiny. "

    I was going to save this for the end of the book, but Sarah has brought it up now, so will mention it here. The NY Times has a column which runs in its magazine on Sunday? Something about Ethics. An attorney answers Ethics for the Modern Age questions and one of them a few weeks back concerned a friend who was slipping into Alzheimers and knew it, and who had amassed enough pills to commit suicide because that friend did not want to end up a vegetable? And so that friend and the one writing had made a pact that if the friend descended into madness, if there WERE lucid moments, the other friend would tell them it was time to take the pills?

    And that time had come? And so the friend wrote should I remind XXX of the pills and our pact?

    Now what do you think the Ethicist said?




    The dichotomy which is Alfred at the end, the sort of bewildered double musing on what's going on versus what one thinks should be going on is so true and real it's almost scary.

    Yesterday at my cello lesson, for instance, the teacher remarked, "I see a slight trembling of the bow hand..." Really? My own hand is doing a slight trembling? Why? I did not authorize a slight trembling? I was not aware of it? People in their 30's don't tremble, do they?

    It's that kind of thing?

    Pat W, " I do feel definitely 'intimidated' when my daughter stops by to check on us... Slowly declining into 'uselessness' and you don't realize it until you wake up one day... and wonder where is the drive... energy.. vision.. that woke us early every morning. "

    I thought of you when reading this, actually, what are YOUR thoughts on Enid in this book, Pat? How do you see Enid?

    Your statement above made me think, about the "child checking on the parent" thing. There seem to be two approaches to this, and I'm not sure which one is desirable?

    On the one hand the child is showing love and concern, right? And I know people who just sort of.....what's the word...give up and turn everything over TO the child, and they seem quite happy, and apparently the sooner done the better, child is happy not having to fight parent, feels useful (very important) parent is ensconced (if lucky) in the love of the child.

    The other side of the coin is when the parent stubbornly clings to independence (afraid I will be in that category) thus causing child no end of grief, stress and anger?).... "Can't do a THING with Mama and Daddy!"

    What to do?

    I've had a Mobile Meals route for 16 years out in the countryside where it's not unusual for people way up in thier 80s and 90s to live totally alone with no help. Many of these recipients have children who seem strangely absent or distant, there's usually a reason. Is it selfishness on the part of the child or something else?

    In many ways SeniorNet Online is a blessing. If I could put a computer in each of my Mobile Meals homes so that each person could communicate with others, their doubts, their inmost thoughts, their own personality, while at the same time limited by physical restrictions, it might be the best of both worlds.

    Perhaps the only "dysfunctional" thing about this family in the book is that they are not secure or free enough in their own selves to allow the others the same freedom of individuality?

    Here's one example of this: (by the way, did you notice Sisyphus made an appearance in this book as well?) Page 180:



    ...to dry them seemed as Sisyphean as to repair the things wrong with his parrents' house. The only way to avoid despair was not to involve himself at all.


    Who is the villain in this book?

    For much of the book Enid is the "bad guy," isn't she? Oh disorganized, oh wants this impossible goal: everybody coming for Christmas (loved that joke above by the way! hahahahaha)

    I had to put the book down toward the end, and thought, just what is it that Enid wants which is so terrible? Everybody back home one last time? Why is that soooo bad and unreasonable?

    Quite frankly, I'm somewhat astounded that they DON"T come, to me, that indicates THEY are dysfunctional? Not her.

    But Enid had a motive, and I have a feeling they all knew it, because apparently she operated that way from the beginning, did you get that sense? Is that why they are so defensive?

    And the "Mom always liked you best" stuff which erupts at every opportunity, in every family unless an only child. And Enid does have some awful moments, she's been no saint, herself in child rearing. But then again, who was?

    If you want SICKO you need to look at Caroline (Gary's wife)...you talk about SICK, while calling him sick all the time? Talk about dysfunctional? Talk about....sheesh...THOSE kids, if there is a sequel, will be the ones to watch.

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 19, 2002 - 12:11 pm
    Ginny, I think you’ve made an excellent point—it’s the individuals who are dysfunctional (thanks for correcting my spelling; I hate it when I do that!) And the term "dysfunctional family" is much overused. And all families have issues (oh, yeah).

    As individuals, they are members of a family, but you get the sense that they don’t "belong" to a family. Take his description of the house: "how lifeless the house looked… In the lighted houses of [the other families], people were clearly at home--whole families grouped around tables, young heads bent over homework, dens aflicker with TV, toddlers careening, a grandparent testing a tea bag’s virtue with a third soaking. These were spirited, unselfconscious houses. Whether anybody was home meant everything to a house. It was more than a major fact: it was the only fact. The family was the house’s soul." They are all in their separate little worlds, in separate rooms, doing separate things.

    It’s almost the family as power struggle (Gary’s certainly is, but the Lamberts are, too).

    I’m only about half-way through (I find it very difficult to pick up this book, but once I do I become engrossed), but I haven’t so far seen Enid as a villain. Not to say her actions are all sympathetic: she despicably lets Chip suffer at the dinner table, placing the blame on Alfred, who has forgotten him. Her fallacious reasoning about Chip: if he was her responsibility, she would be derelict; a loving mother isn’t derelict; she is a loving mother, therefore not derelict, ergo not responsible. "Eventually Alfred would surface and see what a beast he had been and be very, very sorry." Poor Chip is really a pawn in the power struggle game.

    Ed Zivitz
    March 19, 2002 - 02:43 pm
    From my perspective,Enid is manipulative and devious.

    She is doing her darndest to send her children on a guilt trip.Is it wrong to want all your children home for a big family holiday dinner (maybe the last one)....In my view...if you have to beg your kids or manipulate your kids in order to get them to come for dinner...then heck with them. A non-manipulative person would extend the invitation and the kids would either accept or reject...no whining,no questions as to why not.

    Perhaps this begs the question as to what is the role of the parents in raising their children.

    How much of this novel represents Franzen's own life?

    Ginny
    January 28, 2002 - 01:50 pm
    Sarah, I agree, Franzen is a master at truth telling, when we begin to compare this to RR we may see why the comparison was made in the first place!




    Mme, OH NO, no Ma'am, I would NEVER correct anybody's spelling! hahahahaha I had it spelled two ways myself in my own post and so had to look it up and saw that dis is a variation of dys, so both are right!

    I think there's a real effort or tone in the book, maybe fronm the perspective of the children, but Enid is vilified, there's no doubt as we go on, the question is why? And who is doing it?

    I liked your quote about the family being the soul of the house, the book is full of fabulous quotes, check out this one:


    (page 238) Gary believed that she was calling because she knew that he'd betrayed her


    So Gary is really operating under a load of guilt, he's just not running away with no thought of his parents, he's feeling a betrayer, and who gave him the thought that he owed her in the first place?

    The section on page 213, "Dad has done nothing to take care of himself...He's sat in that f----- blue chair and swallowed in self-pity..."

    Now THERE is a statement. THERE is a child who is overcome by the decline of his parent, or do you see it that way? There is a child who says it's DAD'S fault he has declined, so it's out of MY hands, if only he had...if he had....because when you're YOUNG things don't happen because you try?

    ??

    Powerful emotions here and casting the blame anywhere, even on the victim?

    Or what is this quote about?




    Ed, super thoughts!!



    From my perspective,Enid is manipulative and devious.


    Well of course she is. The question is WHY? Why does she have to RESORT to that, did her outright pleas go unanswered?



    She is doing her darndest to send her children on a guilt trip.


    Or maybe just get some help she can't get any other way?

    Is it wrong to want all your children home for a big family holiday dinner (maybe the last one)....In my view...if you have to beg your kids or manipulate your kids in order to get them to come for dinner...then heck with them. A non-manipulative person would extend the invitation and the kids would either accept or reject...no whining,no questions as to why not.

    Good point, Ed. So the non manipulative person extends the invitation and the kids say no. Then what?

    The non manipulative person still can't deal with the issue herself alone and the kids won't see it for themselves and so.......

    Would we say Enid is desperate here at all or not?

    Why can't she deal with it herself?

    There's a very telling spot near the end of the book where Enid says something like so I have to deal with it myself after all.

    I don't know, what makes a person devious in the first place?



    Perhaps this begs the question as to what is the role of the parents in raising their children.


    Or maybe what is the role of adult children in the care of their parents?

    Those of us who don't have to beg our children to come to dinner or gather as a family may, perhaps, not understand Enid's desperation here. Do we feel that she deserves this fate?

    If YOU were Enid, what would you do?



    How much of this novel represents Franzen's own life?


    I think Franzen is Chip Incarnate, that scene at the dinner table is way too acute to be otherwise, and note it's not Enid who saves him?

    ginny

    Jo Meander
    March 20, 2002 - 04:33 pm
    I'm only half way through! Please don't tell me how it ends! I love this book, but my eyes are giving out, and my appointment with the opthamologist in't until the week after Easter! Boy, do I need a new prescription!
    I was keeping track of the points I wanted to respond to, but if I try to do them all in order, I'll never say anything so I'll just plunge in now and say something. Enid's deviousness may have it's roots in her desire to make everything work, to have the kind of family that does function well, especially together. Remeber how she reacts at weddings? All those nice people with their nice children and sons and daughters-in-law, all of which she must have for herself to feel that she has succeeded! Manipulating everyone with guilt to get them home for Christmas will result, she hopes, in a wonderful family scene that she can parade before the neighbors (as if they are going to look!) and before herself, so that she feels successful as a mother. The kids all seem aware of her needs, and feel the pressure in varying degrees, and Gary obviously thinks he has failed his parents and wants to get control of their lives... maybe reflecting the way Enid wants/needs to get control of everybody! Learned behavior??? A "control gene" at work???

    Ginny
    March 21, 2002 - 05:21 am
    Jo, right, not give anything away, I got up thinking about family holidays in general, and Enid in particular.

    Loved this: Enid's deviousness may have it's roots in her desire to make everything work, to have the kind of family that does function well, especially together.... all of which she must have for herself to feel that she has succeeded!

    That's a super point, I don't think anything anybody does is based on only ONE motive, Enid may have several motives, and what can we say when a person needs to have others come to a family gathering to feel that that person has been successful?

    Enid herself was a bit of a financial success or mind early on in her life, wasn't she?

    If you all could give a page number where you are we could be sure of not going over or revealing the plot? (Sounds like the Price is Right, XXX without going over the retail price) and I'm not sure anybody listens to Enid at all.

    On anything.

    I got up thinking about families and holidays, wouldn' t you tend, as an adult child, to spend your holiday where it meant the most to you and the persons you spent it with?

    What happens, as in the case of Gary, with a family of 5 who apparently has not been to mom's for quite a while (why? was it Enid? Alfred? Why)

    What would lit have hurt Caroline? I think Caroline, as I have said before, is the sickest one here. Playing games, taking sides, really whacked.

    Where are you all so we can not go ahead, page wise?

    ginny

    MmeW
    March 21, 2002 - 10:07 am
    I'm at about page 300--made no progress yesterday. (I told you I have a tough time picking it back up.) Enid was good with figures, keeping books at the boarding house, and she was bitter that Alfred refused to invest in the stock market, being scarred by the Depression, and just wanted to keep money in the bank. My mother-in-law used to lament that her husband was like that when she wanted to invest in land (in California!). Alf was relying on Schopenhauer: "The people who make money are men, not women," etc. These thoughts occur during the scene when he "defiles" Denise's fetus, "and so, of course, when she was older she betrayed him."

    However, the stock Enid wanted to invest in was Erie Belt, which Midpac was buying out (insider info), so Alf refused (and rightfully so). But then Alf gives the insider tip to the Meisners, who became rich from it. What was that about?

    Although Gary's whole family hasn't been to Mom's, Gary and Jonah have gone rather recently, which is when Enid began planting the seed of coming "home for the holidays." Gary is such a pleaser--no wonder he has a tough time in life, married to a woman no one could please. (I agree--Caroline is very unlikeable. And she really knows how to push Gary's buttons.)

    patwest
    March 21, 2002 - 10:44 am
    comes from her "need" to control her children. She seems unable to "cut the apron strings." Command attendance to family gatherings does not mean a happy time. Everyone comes with the wrong attitude... but Enid feels she can control that as she has tried to control the lives of her adult children.

    Jo Meander
    March 21, 2002 - 08:15 pm
    I'm around 290. I'm picking up speed, I think. I've finished the flashback section -- very illuminating! Gary wanted to please his family and protect Chip from Alfred's pressure they were very young. He is Jonah's father, for sure! Setting the table, loving his mother's vegetable dinner with liver (the Revenge meal!), playing ping pong with his pregnant mother, telling Alfred to be fair to Chip --a parent pleasing kid. Chip is withdrawing, running away without moving. Enid is struggling to be the perfct mother, housekeeper, wife, and with little thanks or affection from Alfred, who seems to be suffering from a depressive's view of life and human nature -- everybody's "stupid." He seems to fear and despise his own humanity, his sexuality, which he only indulged because Enid pretty much forces him to, and because he needs to exorcise the images of women that have inflamed him when he was working away from home. Unhappy, uncommunicative, and unable to relate in any productive way to Enid! It seems to have been a sad, nightmarish relationship, with Enid plugging away at it as she is doing in later years. The author is telling us that people do not change.

    SarahT
    March 22, 2002 - 07:39 pm
    Yes, Jo, that is exactly right - the author is telling us that people do not change. What fascinates me about this book is that even though he is terribly infirm, Alfred still exerts power over the rest of the family. He has them all fearing him, afraid to go against his will.

    Do we ever change? We all are raised in America to believe we can do or be anything - and yet the message in so many of these books is that none of us ever really change.

    This is the first parallel I see between this book and Revolutionary Road.

    Do any of you see others?

    The one thing I was struck with from the very beginning of Corrections was how pessimistic it was from the very beginning. This contrasted with RR, where the beginning promised some hope - albeit dashed. I wondered if part of the difference wasn't the difference in timing and in generations. The post-war optimism in RR cannot compare to the millenial realities and fears, the sense of ominousness that surrounds us now.

    SarahT
    March 22, 2002 - 08:22 pm
    Ed, MmeW and Ginny - I'm torn about Enid's desire/need to get everyone together at Christmas. Part of me agrees completely with you, Ed, that she is being manipulative and guilt tripping her family into doing something they don't want to do. On the other hand, what's so wrong about wanting the family to be together once a year?

    I think we all feel a bit of this tension - certainly I do. Some years I think - I'm not really close to these people, they're just my blood. Why should I try so hard to be with them? I'm not obligated to spend time with them.

    Other years I get all mushy and sentimental and think - they're my blood, that means something, I should see them once in a while. We should keep the family bond together, if only very tenuously.

    Now, Ed, if you're saying that Enid felt neither of these emotions - but instead something more sinister and devious - that interests me.

    Here is another way in which RR and Corrections parallel one another. Just as Enid wants to hold the family together come hell or high water, regardless of how miserable they make one another, so Mrs. Givings tries to maintain a veneer of normalcy with her mentally ill son John.

    Now, do we fault these women for their fakery, for pretending they're all just one big happy family when the truth is far more dark? Or do we honor them for persevering in light of these terrible truths?

    I myself am torn on this question!

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 06:32 am
    Wonderful questions and insights, Sarah and Jo!

    And thank you Jo and Mme for mentioning a page number, that's so helpful so as not to spoli the ending and plot.

    I love the parallels you are making, Sarah, between the tone and the feeling of expectation in the beginning of both books and that has led me to say they are about people, tho, at different times of their lives.

    RR starts with a couple in their....are they late 20s? Hope abounds. Little Theater. Dreams which have not died of I coulda been a contenda. Those dreams die and look how the book ends and with whom?

    ??

    Now Corrections starts with a couple in the fall of their years but it ends....here I won't go forward but what a super point you have made about hope.

    So what IS so wrong about a mother wanting to have her family for Chirstmas? Maybe we need to ask why have they not been going there all this time?

    I keep thinking of Cat Stevens:
    The Cat's in the Cradle and the silver spoon,
    little boy blue and the man in the moon,
    when you coming home , Son, I don't know when,
    but we'll be together then, Dad, you know we'll have a good time then.

    I would say offhand the time to work on family is when you have the children young, and at home.

    I think I will also say that adult children have a huge amount of forgiving to do and I don't think any family is immune. Maybe that's at the heart of every successful (if there is such a thing) family, how much the adult child can forgive the parents?

    When you coming home, Son, I don't know when,
    but we'll be together, then, Dad, you know we'll have a good time then.

    more....

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 06:48 am


    Sarah, let me address three of the wonderful points in your post before last:

    Do we ever change? We all are raised in America to believe we can do or be anything - and yet the message in so many of these books is that none of us ever really change.

    And Jo says the author is telling us that people don't change. I love that. Is he right?

    Now Sarah, you have asked this before? And was it in RR? If so that's another parallel, you asked if of Frank.

    And so here is another parallel, what character are you asking it of here?

    I think we do change, that is if we're lucky, if we grow and mature? I think we have to pass a certain place so we can see clearly. I will never forget going with a friend to visit her elderly aunt, she was actually terrified, the woman was presented to me as a monster, a powerful giant of a woman who could crush us all with a breath. My friend is in her 60's. I had to force her to go visit this TERROR.

    I actually, when the door was finallly opened, peered around the door sill looking about 10 feet up in the air for the TERRIBLE DRAGON GIANT and found?

    A tiny little whisp of an elderly lady, barely 4 feet tall who talked to her teddy bear friends who were sitting on the couch and who could barely toddle?

    My friend had not changed her emotional mindset about this formidable aunt, but age and inevitablity had changed everything. It's part of growing up, these scales falling from the eyes of the young, it's part of the also running theme of TRUTH and LIES and both of them are very prominent in both books. I don't want to mention Chip and his job till I see what page it's on, but why lie to Mom and Dad about it?




    the sense of ominousness that surrounds us now.

    Sarah, do you remember the 60's at all? Do the rest of you? Sarah's the Baby Bookie here? How about those bomb shelters in the back yards? Do any of you remember them? How about the Cuban Missile crisis? I remember students running tearfully thru the halls when I was in college at the very thought we were about to be bombed?

    Sarah what do you see as a new wave here of ominousness suddenly?

    Quite frankly, I don't feel ominousness I feel determination and courage emanating from this country at this time, it's snothing like the 60's.




    This is the first parallel I see between this book and Revolutionary Road.

    Do any of you see others?


    Truth, lies, I see that quite early, Facades, the "importance" of being or maybe seeimg "successful," the lack of importance that "success" confers and what really matters in the end, that's what I see so far, let me go look at what I have underlined, Jo says she sees a "correction," I want to start noting them if they are appearing this early!

    What were "the corrections" in RR?

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 07:04 am
    Now Mme brings up, as per usual, an interesting point, what was that all about with Alfred and the banker? Alfred has inside news, he's showing integrity not moving on it, right? But why does he mention it to somebody who IS going to take advantage of it? Alfred is not stupid. He knows banker Meisner IS a banker BECAUSE he knows how to manipulate money, it's interesting to watch how Alfred rationalizes that.

    Meisner seems to be one of the few people who appreciate Alfred, isn't he? Always respectful, always with the nice remarks, did Alfred sell his own soul just there for a bit of pottage and does he admit it?

    Truth comes in many colors, did we just see something interesting?

    ginny

    SarahT
    March 23, 2002 - 12:56 pm
    You're right, Ginny - I somehow had forgotten that in the late 50s everyone was getting into their bomb shelters and learning to duck and cover. I was born in '59 and always think of the 50s as a more innocent time.

    If the 50s were no more innocent than the 2000s - and we certainly live in ominous times with the 9/11 incident, the recent revelations about our own country's planning with regard to the use of nuclear weapons - then what explains the difference in tone between the two books.

    In RR, there is a sense of hope being dashed over and over again. The play, the trip to France, even the stone path and the attempt to have John make friends with Frank and April.

    In Corrections, I never get that sense of optimism. Rather, there's a sense that everything, all of the family problems, were preordained from the early years. A sense of futility and hopelessness, almost of fatalism.

    And Ginny also talks about facades as a common theme between the two books. Do you all see that? Is that something particularly American - our keeping up with the Joneses culture - at any cost? Our debt-ridden society, with everyone focused on what lies just at the surface. I am reminded of all of those family pictures one sees - of the Yates family, for example, that mother who drowned her 5 children in the bathtub - and the family photo was so beautiful and they all wore such beautiful smiles. Often one sees those family photos from the 50s and the families always look so perfect, so perfectly conformist - and one learns much later on of the horrors that went on in behind that beautiful facade? Is this a particularly American thing?

    I have always found Europeans to be almost painfully blunt - they'll tell you if you're fat, if something looks terrible on you. There's a real lack of facade that I find disconcerting.

    And yet, that kind of honesty can be far more healthy than the pretty pictures Enid tries to create at weddings and the beautiful family tableau she attempts to create at Christmas.

    MmeW
    March 23, 2002 - 03:51 pm
    It’s funny that you mention that song, Ginny, for back on March 16 (post 206), I said it reminded me Harry Chapin’s old song (it was his) Cat’s in the Cradle. I have been humming it ever since and use it as a reference when explaining the book to my brother and son (not the same person, in case you wondered).

    Ginny: Here is another way in which RR and Corrections parallel one another. Just as Enid wants to hold the family together come hell or high water, regardless of how miserable they make one another, so Mrs. Givings tries to maintain a veneer of normalcy with her mentally ill son John. I was completely struck by a scene in Corrections that so reminded me of Mrs. Givings when she breaks down and cries about the unhappiness of her life, but then takes a deep breath and everything’s back to normal. Enid breaks down and cries about having pretended to be on the upper deck, and not having money when everyone else does--then she finds a ten-dollar bill, feels "restored," and returns to the B deck.

    For some reason, I kept wanting to refer to her attitude as British (maybe stiff upper lip), and then I realized that there is a British sitcom on PBS called "Keeping Up Appearances" and that’s Enid in a nutshell.

    So far I still don’t find Enid a despicable character. How terrible to be in love with a man all your life and have him treat you like...what, a slave? (see below)

    Sarah: there's a sense that everything, all of the family problems, were preordained from the early years. A sense of futility and hopelessness, almost of fatalism.

    I get that same feeling; this seems to be quite a naturalistic novel in that respect. Early on I wrote this to myself: actually, they are all products of their upbringing (Alfred’s: "His father kept a slave whom he was married to").

    SarahT
    March 23, 2002 - 05:33 pm
    I agree, MmeW, to me, there's nothing despicable about either Mrs. Givings or Enid. If anything, I feel sorry for them and for their lot in life. I guess one could say we're all responsible for our own situations to a point, but Mrs. Givings is not the reason John is mentally ill, just as Alfred's behavior is not Enid's fault.

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 05:53 pm
    Geeah, I'm a danger to myself and others, Harry Chapin not CAT Stevens with CAT'S in the Cradle, jeepers.

    So THAT's why I thought of that song! You posted it and it entered into my subconscious like all our book discussions do, all the comments swirl and build and become a new body of the literature and it's HARRY CHAPIN, jeepers. Sorry, did not mean to steal credit there! (Hey, that's twice, too! Your turn!) hahahahaa

    So I had to go look up Cat Stevens and found a page in German which lists all his songs and translates them and I think I better stick with the Boss and Paul Simon (now THEM I am right on) hahahaahahah

    You know I hate to say this (especially in the face of my obvious lack of musical acumen, but that business of finding the money perking her right up? I do that too?

    I take it as an omen? As a sign.. It's happened many times to me, something like that and it's amazing how it changes a downcast opinion, that may be only me, but hey!

    ahahahahaa Works for me.

    Sarah earlier mentioned family pictures and I was kinda struck by the illustration on the cover, I'm not sure why. it's a photograph, sort of Norman Rockwellish, I'm wondering about the figure on the back of the book and why the expression on the blond child's face.

    Sarah you were talking about the Yates children's photos, I can't even look at those faces, that next to youngest boy, his sweet face, I can't bear to look at it, I'm so glad I was not on that jury and it took them no time at all, did it?

    Enid is not without her Hyacinth Bucket pretenses, that's a very sharp observation, Mme, I was struck by this, especially, in fact, on 295, sounds just like Hyacinth Bucket's, "sauna and room for a pony"

    "Her Austrian son-in-law is tremendously successful and owns a chalet there!" (this shouted apropos essentially of nothing)...

    On page 294, I thought this was strange, for some reason? Not sure why: :


    "It mattered to her that Europe be European. She'd visited the Continent five times on vacation and twice on business trips with Alfred, so about a dozen times altogether, and to friends planning tours of Spain or France she now liked to say, with a sigh, that she'd had her fill of the place."


    So she's been to the European Continent 7 times. We don't know for how long or what she saw , but two of the trips were with Alfred on business, I doubt they saw whole countries or stayed for months on those two, and nevertheless she's had her fill of the place.

    I find that interesting and don't know why. 5 and 2 are 7, not a dozen, it's very good writing, I think, how he manages to convey nuances by seeming to state facts as they occur to the person thinking them.

    And this one on page 293,


    It rankled her that people richer than she were so often less worthy and attractive.


    The thing about the ghost puzzled me, too, I felt perhaps I had read too quickly or something, this part on page 273:



    The kitchen and dining room were ablaze in light, and there appeared to be a small boy slumped over the dining-room table, his face on his place mat. The scene was so wrong, so sick with Revenge, that for a moment Alfred honestly thought the boy at the table was a ghost from his own childhood.


    I was kind of caught up in this section because.... and I guess I shouldn't say so but I have never been one to make the children eat all their food or stay at table until finished or eat it left over for breakfast, so something like this small child sitting there with unfinished food says more than Revenge to me.

    But when I read it I wondered if I had missed something about Alfred? His childhood? Where is that written? I must have read too fast.

    But I didn't read too fast to think that I believe, as Ed mentioned some time ago, that we see Franzen appear in the book, on page 271.....


    And if you sat at the dinner table long enough whether in punishment or in refusal or simply in boredom, you never stopped sitting there. Some part of you sat there all your life.


    That's powerful stuff and again speaks to Sarah's question do we ever change? Are we still sitting there, even now?

    I could be wrong but that appears to me to be heartfelt and kind of personal on the part of the author.

    I believe "Chip" is partly Franzen.

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 06:03 pm
    Am looking now for the first "correction" because Jo said she had seen one in these first 300 pages, but even tho I marked them with purple ink, can't find the first one, still looking, but did find these two fairly startling (to me) parallels to RR?

    See if you think so:

  • Page 84: "I don't understand this furniture," he said, struggling to sound powerful.. "Is this meant to be a sofa?" (Frank in RR??)

  • Page 88: "The problem with men, she said, was that she'd grown up without. Her father was a manic depressive boat salesman whom she remembered meeting once and wished she'd never met at all. Her mother, a cosmetics company executive, had fobbed Julia off on her own mother..." (kind of reminds me of April in a way?)

    ginny
  • MmeW
    March 23, 2002 - 06:19 pm
    Ginny, don't forget Gary's son, "Aaron, who was best photographed unawares before he could position his head at the self-conscious angle that he believed most flattering." (143) ..."Aaron was standing at his mirror with his brow wrinkled and his head at the Flattering Angle..." (149)

    You knew, of course, that I would find a mirror in here.

    The first correction I found was Chip's proposed correction to his script (leaving out the breasts). But I have lots more about corrections if I could just finish the book!

    Ginny
    March 23, 2002 - 06:25 pm
    Oh GOOD ones, Mme!!! Well done, mirrors, too!

    There is a spot about 3/4ths near the end of the book I got totally bogged down, don't remember now what was going on, but I remember being BOGGED!

    AHA, correction to script!! AHA!! Thanks, going to look!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 23, 2002 - 07:15 pm
    A very dear friend sent me these books, which arrived only yesterday. I haven't even opened Revolutionary Road, and am just about 125 pages into The Corrections.

    It occurred to me today that Enid's obsession with having the family together at Christmas is the greatest correction of all -- from what really is to what never was, a correction it seems to me she's been trying to make for a long, long time.

    Several of these characters are familiar to me, and in my opinion, Enid is very easy to read. She surrounds herself with the same kind of clutter that is her own life and that of her kids. Her method of coping with that clutter is to hide it behind the pickle jars or something and dream about the mile-high shrimp served at somebody else's party.

    Alfred's Parkinson's Disease appears to be the only thing that has managed to penetrate his rigid, midwestern-conservative view of life.

    Denise appears at this point to be a "hider", in many ways similar to her mother.

    Chip, oh, Chip. I've known him before. Haven't met Gary yet.

    The humor and satire in this book are wonderful. Deepmire, St. Jude for town names. I laughed so hard at the scene where Chip has stolen the salmon by hiding it in his clothes and is waylaid by Eden's full-of-bull husband. Throughout all this satire, though, I see a genuine fondness for his characters on Franzen's part. I truly think this is a rather wonderful book.

    I may be back from time to time, but can add nothing to comparison of the two books. I'm just not that fast a reader.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 23, 2002 - 09:47 pm
    Page 181:~ "But his (Gary) entire life was set up as a correction of his father's life...."

    And how about Axon's Corecktall Process?

    Mal

    SarahT
    March 24, 2002 - 11:08 am
    Ha! Great stuff, Ginny, Mme and Mal! Ginny, there was also the moment earlier in the book where Alfred thinks he sees children through the window, several faces, and Enid has to correct him and tell him it's just the reflection of the sunflowers. There is definitely something ghostlike and haunting there.

    Mal, with "Corecktal," I couldn't help thinking of a laxative - must be one with that name or something - and I thought it funny that he would choose the name of a laxative for something that would clear your brain! Another example of his devilish humor, I think.

    Indeed, Gary becomes worried about his own life path whenever he feels it too much parallels Alfred's. If he considers working a fifty hour week or taking a briefcase home, he stops and reminds himself that his life is supposed to be a correction of Alfred's.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2002 - 05:25 pm
    On Page 252 when Alfred returns from eleven days away:

    "It was in their nature to throw their arms around him, but this nature had been corrected out of them."
    Page 281:

    "A last child was a last opportunity to learn from one's mistakes and make corrections, and he resolved to seize this opportunity."
    Page 285:

    "Tightasses like you been correcting every f...ing word outta my mouth since I was yay big."
    I'm wondering if the Aslan 'Cruiser' the doctor gives Enid on the ship is the same thing as the Mexican A Melissa gave to Chip.

    Mal

    SarahT
    March 24, 2002 - 06:21 pm
    And, Mal, there's also a prison "corrections" theme that runs through the book - not only in Corecktal's potential to change brain chemistry so offenders don't offend, but also in Alfred's obsession with prisons and capital punishment.

    There's also a very prevalent theme in this book of the importance of the brain, and brain chemistry. From Alfred's Parkinson's, to Catherine's obsession with Gary's depression and mental health, to the Corecktal promise of changing brain chemistry, we have a very strong emphasis on "correcting" the brain.

    This seems a very modern concept, a theme far different from RR's take on mental illness.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 25, 2002 - 08:37 am
    I have finished reading The Corrections. That is to say, I have read through the book. It would take me a much longer time to read this book as it should be read.

    I have come away thinking The Corrections is as much about deception, especially self-deception, as it is corrections. Chip is the most blatant about his dishonesty, but I don't find a single character in this book who is honest with himself, herself, or others. I also don't really find a character in the book whom I dislike, including tyrant Alfred. Alfred reminds me of someone I once knew very well. In fact, many of these characters are familiar to me.

    The very end of the book where Enid "corrects" Alfred is quite funny, I think. She finally got her true revenge, rather than cooking revenge for dinner in the form of liver and bacon.

    I dislike the use of the word "dysfunctional" as a label. In fact, I have never met a family or a human being to which that word could not be applied in one way or another. These are people with their foibles and hangups, good qualities and bad, as simple as that. The characters are exaggerated, of course, but that's part of what makes them interesting.

    I may be weird, but I found Alfred's disintegration very amusing. Some of the hallucinations he had made me laugh. Comparing him with Gary was interesting, especially the use of the Yuban can in the basement and the stein in the closet.

    This is an enormous book in many ways, and I won't soon forget it. It demands more than one reading, but I believe I'll wait awhile before I read it again.

    Mal

    Jo Meander
    March 25, 2002 - 07:25 pm
    Ginny, I agree about the Chip/Franzen connection! I think that little blonde boy on the Norman Rockwell style cover reflects the Chip and food sequence in the part of the book you were discussing in your post #234. Also, I don’t remember any reference to Alfred’s own childhood? Does anyone?
    I think Franzen is focusing upon how family life drives us away from the values and expectations of our own parents, a phenomenon more peculiar to our generation and to those that have followed us. I think when Yates was writing Revolutionary Road the importance of continuity in family life and in other circumstances of a child’s environment was taken for granted. Franzen seems to be saying that escaping from those influences is more important for many individuals. Chip and Denise are the escape artists in this work; Gary is the child bent upon “correcting” his father’s life in the sense that he doesn’t want to replicate it with his own family, and ironically he is the one promoting the values of his mother. So he isn’t really correcting the patterns he has been subjected to; he’s defying Alfred, but he’s not really escaping anything. (Notice how his own youngest is striving to be a parent-pleaser, as Gary himself was when he was a child? Did I say that before? Sorry!) Malryn, that was the first “correction” I noticed on p. 281. The “Corecktal” to which Alfred evidently made a contribution with his patented discovery, and the pills Enid takes on the cruise are more “corrections.” Those are some of the specific instances that struck me, but actually I think the behavior of all three children are attempted “corrections.”
    Who asked the question about Alfred’s tip to Meisner which enabled him to benefit from stock purchases? Ginny??? I agree anyway, that it was a confusing thing for him to do, considering how he thought that taking advantage of inside info was not proper. Alfred is at once the most puzzling and the most unattractive character. Maybe the author believes that men of his generation were reared roughly, in households where there was very little money. They were all expected to make do on little and to contribute heavily to the family cause. Alfred and Enid both think like "Depression babies,” even thought they come from a later generation. I think he was troubled by his own coldness toward his sons and wanted to correct that situation but just didn’t know how. He seems sad to me, often a page or two after he has make me angry.
    I’m around p.420.

    SarahT
    March 25, 2002 - 07:41 pm
    Yes, Malryn, this book does make an impression, doesn't it? In my book, it deserves the accolades it has received.

    On Alfred, Mal and Jo, I am so puzzled by him. His disintegration is sort of amusing - here we have such a stiff, staid, rigid, organized, and yes, anal retentive sort of man, who falls apart worrying about turds chasing him around the room. All his worse fears realized. Clearly his unconscious troubles him deeply.

    Jo, viewed this way, I think I understand why he tips off Meisner on the stock. It's one instances of his inability to suppress his unconscious brain, it comes out almost without him realizing it. I don't think he set out deliberately to do anything like this. When they say "the devil made me do it," I usually think of that little devil that sits on one shoulder, that half of the brain that is unformed and rough and impetuous. We work so hard at suppressing that side of ourselves, but through all over our lives, the devil occasionally wins out. It's part of the imperfections of the brain that Franzen seems so fascinated with.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 25, 2002 - 09:49 pm
    I don't know anything about Franzen except for the Oprah incident, so can't find similarities between him and Chip. Readers of stuff I've written are always "finding" me in it. I'm using myself as the central character in a novel right now. Nobody who has read chapters of it has recognized me. They've said the most awful things about my character, aka me. After the initial shock, their reaction made me laugh.

    Alfred doesn't puzzle me because, as I said, I knew someone like that very well. Alfred is always right, always has to be in control. The slip with Meisner probably happened because his overall "right" picture of the situation wouldn't let him perceive the harm of it. The trouble with people like Alfred is that they're not always right. When they do make mistakes, they make lulus, but can't ever see that they were wrong. It's not a case of admitting it; it's a case that in their minds it's impossible they could ever be wrong.

    I'm not sure Alfred's subconscious was coming out in his hallucinations. As a writer, it seemed to me that Franzen was having a little joke on uptight people through his character. I've used that kind of trick myself.

    What about Enid's meeting with Sylvia Roth on the cruise ship? Have you already talked about that? What did the gun obsession mean? Was it a lead-up to Alfred's gun? Was it symbolic? Was it sexual? That part of the book is a bit perplexing to me.

    I've started reading Revolutionary Road. I seem to be doing everything backwards here.

    Mal

    Jo Meander
    March 25, 2002 - 10:40 pm
    Malryn, I thought the gun obsession was symptomatic of her powerful need for vengeance on her daughter's murderer. One of the things that capivates me is Franzen's capacity to create stories within the larger plot that are so well done, so convincing and absorbing that they could stand on their own as short stories. The Sylvia Roth segment was one of those instances. So are the separate events in the lives of each family member.

    Ginny
    March 26, 2002 - 09:32 am
    Gosh I'm so far behind, I'm sorry, welcome Malryn, we're delighted to see you here and it will be interesting to hear how you feel about RR, coming to it as many modern readers are, after The Correections!

    And thank you for ALL those references to "The Corrections!" Gosh there are a lot of them!

    And bless GOOGLE, bless it, it asked do you mean Correctol and of course I did, and of course it's a laxative

    Bisacodyl Stimulant Laxative For Women

    Those of you who have finished the book can hardly escape the symbolism here?

    So we have a LOT of corrections in this book, I wonder which IS the main intended CORRECTION?

    Which correction is the most important?




    Mal I'm going to disagree with you on the Chip thing, I know that writers are often bemused by what others see in their works, but to me, it doesn't matter. Sometimes things slip out that the writer did not intend. The most important thing is what the reader sees.

    For instance how many times have we heard a writer say, "In XXX I indended to show YYY" but he didn't? Instead he showed something else, perhaps a bitter outlook on life, perhaps he let a bit slip about himself he himself did not realize, what counts is what he created, not what he intended, if it clashes and it often does.




    Jo, wonderfully put, I , too, wondered if the small blonde boy wioth the...not happy expression was intended as Chip, that is not a painting, it's a photograph and note that the mother on the back cover is the totally encompassing image?

    Jo you are a wonder, you said,


    I think Franzen is focusing upon how family life drives us away from the values and expectations of our own parents, a phenomenon more peculiar to our generation and to those that have followed us. I think when Yates was writing Revolutionary Road the importance of continuity in family life and in other circumstances of a child’s environment was taken for granted.

    Franzen seems to be saying that escaping from those influences is more important for many individuals

    . Chip and Denise are the escape artists in this work; Gary is the child bent upon “correcting” his father’s life in the sense that he doesn’t want to replicate it with his own family, and ironically he is the one promoting the values of his mother. So he isn’t really correcting the patterns he has been subjected to; he’s defying Alfred, but he’s not really escaping anything. (Notice how his own youngest is striving to be a parent-pleaser, as Gary himself was when he was a child?


    But remember, when we look in the heading at our own list of Readers' Topics and Themes in RR we can find you all identified the escape theme as well!! The running away? Super point on the differences in generations, and the two books have different viewpoints, whose viewpoint does The Corrections have? From Enid's generation or Gary's? The narrator is ...is this omniscient third person again, but whose POV is the most strong in both books?

    I think that's a wonderful analysis you did there.

    Yes Chip physically escapes, that was odd, to me, and Denise escapes and Gary replicates Alfred while he tries not to, the violence and seeming harsh reactions to me, are indications of his overwhelming guilt and frantic hoping to escape. Let' s just slap them in a home and get this over with!

    Right now! Over with, (I can't bear it, can't bear this awful thing to go on and on)....

    Then you said, or was this Sarah:

    Alfred is at once the most puzzling and the most unattractive character.

    Now there's a statement!

    Do all of you see Alfred as the "most unattractive character?" If so, why? Because the author persists in putting him in the scatalogical appurtenances that unfortunately sometimes accompany a slide into dementia?

    Or is it something else?

    I found Caroline the most unattractive character, she is sick, and conniving and manipulative (and I guess if you were a psychologist you would say he married like many people do [depending on how you view Enid] his mother to reform her} and killing those children. If a sequel is written those kids will be time bombs of dysfunction, (sorry but I lack a better word, psychosis?) hahahaha

    Seriously, that's sick.

    Then Sarah said,

    It's one instances of his inability to suppress his unconscious brain, it comes out almost without him realizing it.


    Yes, and I thought that was super writing, that this author was able to show the strain, the stress, the intent and the actual end result, I thought and think this is superior writing.

    What do you think about which of the many (thank you Malryn) listed corrections, is "The Correction," and which is the most unattractive character and what other parallels to RR do you see?

    Good points! As per usual.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 26, 2002 - 10:41 am
    Of, course, you are right, Ginny. Things about the author do slip through. I was thinking more about lifestyle than anything else, and am totally ignorant about Franzen's. His satire shows me more about him and how he thinks than anything I might have perceived about him in other ways.

    In my opinion, Franzen portrays Alfred's family to perfection. It is Alfred's behavior that provokes the kids into doing what they do, something he can't see. Enid is reactive, and her particular meanness is less of an influence on her kids. She had nothing, not even herself, and her manipulativeness was a defense, I believe.

    I'm not sure that it was entirely escape that made people break the continuity of family from the 50's on, though Chip and Denise certainly wanted to escape the kind of smothering their parents did. After World War II it was necessary often to go somewhere besides the hometown to find a good job. With that move and transfers later, if the man worked for a corporation, the kids moved farther and farther away from parents and home. With those moves came a re-evaluation of values. I saw this in my own marriage (I was married in 1951), and I've seen it in my three kids, all of whom moved hundreds of miles away from where their parents lived.

    Strangely enough, I identify more with The Corrections than I do with Revolutionary Road. What is mentioned in Revolutionary Road came ten or more years later to me, the station car, the development house, the conversations, etc. My husband received his Ph.D. in 1955, and from then until well into the sixties we were struggling to get on our feet. I have never been able to relate to stories I hear and read about the 50's, perhaps because of that.

    To me Caroline appears to be a man-belittling shrew, who does everything she can to prove she's still twenty, including trying to be her sons' best friend. She was every much as manipulative as Enid in a much more destructive way, I believe. Robin is unattractive to me, too, despite all the psychological reasons why she is as she is.

    I'm up to page 215 in Revolutionary Road, which to me is an easier read than The Corrections. As the mother of a mentally ill son, I want to know more about John Givings, who at this point appears to be the sanest in the bunch. I can relate to some of Helen's concern and embarrassment about her son, by the way. It's not easy. I've met John only once, remember.

    About people who went to Europe after World War II, I've known quite a few. Some to study on the GI Bill, others just to bum around. It was cheap living in Europe then, and most of the people I know who went had a really great time.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 26, 2002 - 04:56 pm
    I've finished Revolutionary Road and have gone through your posts about it a couple of times. Here's my initial impression of the book as a whole.

    I think Frank was an ordinary kind of guy who never wanted any Krebs ever again to call him a jerk. I believe his rehearsals in front of the mirror were part of what he did to keep this from happening. I do not think he was narcissistic. Didn't you ever in your life stand in front of a mirror and practice how you wanted others to see you?

    April had a bad childhood. She was neurotic. That's a given. She didn't want the first baby. How else would she feel about the third -- the straw that would break the camel's back? She thought she wanted to go to Paris because she needed to find out who she was. I was amazed, in a way, that Yates allowed Frank to agree with the plan.

    April was going through a major reality-facing crisis in her life, one that happens to many people, not just women. The pregnancy took away her hope, which was, I think, that she might possibly be able to change that reality. "This is who you are; live with it." -- "No, it isn't, and I'll show you why and how."

    In 12 Step groups what April had suggested with the move to Paris would be called a "Geographic Cure". This Geographic Cure is the biggest similarity between this book and The Corrections that I've noted thus far. It seems as if the Lambert kids, except for Gary, were taking them all the time. The trouble is that it never works because you have to take yourself with you wherever you go. I know. I've tried it more than once. The reason readers didn't recognize me in the character I put in my book is because the character drinks too much. Some of the readers criticized the character because some people have a very hard time dealing with addiction as a disease.

    I don't really think the thought of changing the gender role society had made for her was on April's mind. It was not on the minds of too many woman in the suburban society in the 50's. The 60's brought a change. I went to and graduated from a women's college in the East. The goal 90% of us women there had was to get through college and get married to a nice guy who would provide a nice home for us. We were prepared to cook, wash dishes and change diapers because we knew our future husbands would be successful, and we wouldn't always have to do this. We would, in other words, end up a lot better off than our Depression era parents were.

    The note April left Frank tells me that she didn't try to abort the baby in order to commit suicide. The thought crossed her mind, obviously, but I don't really think she thought it would happen.

    "Dear Frank,

    "Whatever happens please don't blame yourself."
    I can understand relief Helen Givings might have felt when she knew her son would spend his life in an institution. If you haven't been through the experience of being the parent of a seriously mentally ill child, there's no way to know how difficult it is.

    I can also understand why Milly felt closer to Shep. "There but for the grace of God go we."

    I'd call this book a remarkable insight into people, moreso than The Corrections is. I rather imagine that it was rather shocking to readers when it first was published.

    Mal

    Jo Meander
    March 26, 2002 - 11:12 pm
    Mal, important point about the failure of the "geographic cure." It will be even clearer to me, I'm sure, when I finish the book! Gary, Chip and Denise are taking themselves with them as they attempt their corrections, and on the cruise Enid is dealing with the same dissatisfaction with her status as she was at home. At home, it was the visible success of her neighbors' children, and on the ship she can't stand being seen going down to the B deck!

    Ginny
    March 27, 2002 - 06:21 am
    What an interesting point, Mal, that I'd call this book a remarkable insight into people, moreso than The Corrections is

    Now I'm thinking that most of us did not think RR to be insightful, or did we? I seem to remember shallow characters, etc. .. What a good point, what do the rest of you think, which book shows more insight into human characters?

    ??

    I got up thinking my question to myself which I posed here ywesterday should be not which correction is the most important but which of the many many "corrections" in the book are The Corrections that apparently the author is talking about?

    Not sure there, myself, yet. If he had called it The Correction I think it would have been easier byt The Corrections is hard1

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2002 - 06:39 am
    Which was the most important correction? I'll stick my neck out and say there weren't any.

    Mal

    Ginny
    March 27, 2002 - 06:55 am
    NO corrections at all? But intended corrections? But they weren't corrections? Wow!

    Interesting.

    Failed corrections?

    What are we trying to CORRECT in life anyway? Super provocative point, Malryn.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2002 - 07:17 am
    What living a fairly long time has taught me is that there's really only one thing anyone can change and correct in life, and that's himself or herself. I see no indication that any of the characters in The Corrections was trying to do this. Like so many of us, they were trying to change and correct someone else and what someone else did and not themselves.

    Mal

    MmeW
    March 28, 2002 - 11:58 am
    Sheeeeeeee’s back! Would you believe I still haven’t finished (25 more pages)? This has been a very difficult book for me to read. Mal mentioned that she knew someone exactly like Alfred and I find a lot similarities between Alfred and my dad, who worked for a railroad in the Midwest, who was always right, was very in control, very rigid in his beliefs (he would NEVER have given an insider tip), very reserved about his inner life. (We didn’t know he had been divorced until 50 years after the fact, which would have saved my brother anguish over his failed marriage, yet one more failure in his fruitless attempt to live up to perceived expectations.) Unlike Alf, though, my dad was very successful (his railroad didn't undergo those changes until after he retired). And my mother (Edna) was a bit like Enid, concerned about what people would think. When he got stomach cancer, I took a leave to care for him until he died.

    On the cusp of the 60s, my younger brother and I sought escape (partially geographical, but also from the conformity of the 50s--remember Pete Seeger's "Little Boxes") but I didn’t have a clear idea to what (what kind of a goal in life was 'going to France?'). Trying to live up to my father was the undoing of my middle brother. Yikes! No wonder this has been hard. Me and Chip and Gary.

    I’ve been casting the book in my mind since someone is working on the script: Enid: Jean Stapleton, Alfred: Hume Cronyn, Chip: Robert Downey, Jr. (of course), Gary: ?? Denise: Deborah Winger (?), Jonah: Haley Joel Osment.

    I’ve printed up the last few posts so I can ponder them a bit. Ginny, the only reference to Alfred’s childhood I can find is the one where he said his father "kept a slave whom he was married to." (odd that he dangled a preposition?) And I definitely think Caroline is the most unattractive, nay vicious, character. That calculated campaign to turn Jonah from going to St. Jude was insidious. They do say men tend to marry women like their mothers—was Caroline like Enid, or was she Enid to the nth power in her manipulativeness? She certainly managed to outmanipulate Enid at every turn. Gary was still "excited by her effortless good looks and Quaker bloodlines." ???

    Interesting that Gary, despite his obsession not to be like Alfred, is into collecting railroad artifacts.

    More later. I have to ponder the corrections.

    Jo Meander
    March 28, 2002 - 12:05 pm
    ...OR they were trying to correct circumstances rather than confronting personal characteristics and weaknesses. So, yes, "Corrections" is the right title, but it's ironic? Everywhere we go with the "children" there is change, adaptation, frantic readjustment to calamity.
    I think Franzen is spreading charactre before us as thoroughly as a surgeon peals away flesh to get at buried disease. RR was an easier read, and it appears to be a better crafted book in the traditional sense of a novel's social function, but this book seems blatantly honest to me, even when the situations are extreme and incredible.

    Jo Meander
    March 28, 2002 - 12:09 pm
    Interesting cast, MmeW! I don't think Hugh is with us any more, is he? What about Kevin Spacey for Gary!

    Ed Zivitz
    March 28, 2002 - 01:33 pm
    Enid Lambert and Frank Wheeler.

    Both very happy when their spouses die. Now they are free and don't have to make any more corrections.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 28, 2002 - 04:07 pm
    Despite "the sorry fact seemed to be that life without Alfred in ths house was better for everyone but Alfred", Enid went to see him every day to carry out her "corrective" revenge. Even with doing this "she was unhappy before she visited him, unhappy while she sat beside him, and unhappy for hours afterwards." It doesn't sound to me as if Enid was finding much relief.

    It appeared to me that Frank Wheeler was feeling nothing -- not sadness, not grief, not relief -- nothing.

    It's my feeling that you can't truly change and correct circumstances unless you change and correct your reaction to them.

    If Franzen had not laced this book with as much irony and satire as he used, I'd be able to agree with Jo's assessment that he was peeling layers off each character to reveal them. It seemed to me often while reading The Corrections that Franzen was making generalized satiric statements about people in a particular society rather than concentrating on his characters and their plight. In my opinion, he weakened the story by doing this. I believe the book would have been a real horror story if he had not.

    There's a comparison to be made here. Both novels dealt with society, not just certain people in it. In my opinion, Yates did a better job at describing the society of the mid 50's than Franzen did about the 90's in The Corrections.

    Mal

    MmeW
    March 28, 2002 - 06:37 pm
    Mal, I agree: It seemed to me often while reading The Corrections that Franzen was making generalized satiric statements about people in a particular society rather than concentrating on his characters and their plight. In my opinion, he weakened the story by doing this. I said earlier: "I’m having trouble seeing this book as a whole, partially because Franzen goes off on so many tangents, some of which seem to be just a display of satirical virtuosity (Gitana’s Lithuania, Ltd.)"

    It seems almost as if it were two books, one a character study like RR and the other a mad, zap-bam-pow satire like Terry Southern’s the Magic Christian. (After all, isn’t the turd fantasy really Mr. Hanky from South Park?) That and the satiric tone throughout make it difficult not only to take the characters seriously as if they were really flesh and blood people, but also to sympathize with their plight or detect growth or redemption. Or maybe just hard to sense the continuity, not so much because their story is not given to us chronologically, which it isn't, but because it is so interrupted. (I’m still lacking the last 25 pages, which I will read before commenting further.)

    SarahT
    March 29, 2002 - 05:07 pm
    Mal, you say: "It seemed to me often while reading The Corrections that Franzen was making generalized satiric statements about people in a particular society rather than concentrating on his characters and their plight. In my opinion, he weakened the story by doing this. I believe the book would have been a real horror story if he had not."

    Would you have wanted to read the horror story? I wouldn't have!

    I think the use of humor is a particularly 21st century thing. Everyone is so cynical.

    Ginny
    March 29, 2002 - 05:48 pm
    ZOWIE, Ed! Wow, what a statement, "Now they are free and don't have to make any more corrections. "

    That made me wonder who of all the charcters in both books, tried to make the most corrections? Enid? Who was she trying to correct, anybody besides Alfred? If Alfred dies, will she not want the kids to Christmas dinner?

    Frank and his, "No...but." Frank, who seemed always to be gently trying to explain himself, but who in reality was correcting too, outstanding point, Ed!

    ginny

    Ginny
    March 29, 2002 - 06:01 pm
    Mme, you are SUCH a close reader if you say there was nothing about Alfred's childhood but that one thing I believe, but what does that say about the book!

    I mean here's this long build up, Alfred is the more responsible parent BECAUSE of his childhood which we (or I can't remember seeing) never got to see, and wonderful point on that preposition!

    Alfred’s childhood I can find is the one where he said his father "kept a slave whom he was married to." (odd that he dangled a preposition?)




    Mal commented on the Franzen was making generalized satiric statements about people in a particular society rather than concentrating on his characters and their plight. and then Mme said that That and the satiric tone throughout make it difficult not only to take the characters seriously as if they were really flesh and blood people, but also to sympathize with their plight or detect growth or redemption.

    You know it's funny but I personally found Alfred to be quite realistic, especially in his stilted, formally courteous speech in the midst of what most people would consider a horror of a decline.

    I have seen that in real life and I have a feeling Franzen has too. Enid also seems quite real to me, very much so. So did April and Frank. Milly didn't. Densie doesn't. Chip doesn't. Gary does. Caroline is either a psychopath or exaggerated, maybe a first wife vilified, how many times has Franzen been married?

    Nobody's that bad. Are they?

    Maybe if we made a list of who seems real and who does not we would find out something about ourselves?

    I feel a bit slow tonight, those of you who see this as satirical, what would you say is being satirized? Enid's pretensions? Are both books satirizing pretension? In RR, the pretension of "being somebody?" Well, heck, here, Chip's being somebody?

    I'm trying to figure out who the "protagonist" is. Is it Alfred? Is this a tragedy? Is Alfred's life tragic? Is Enid's? Is April's? Is Frank's?

    Inquiring minds want to know? hahahaha

    ginny

    SarahT
    March 29, 2002 - 07:42 pm
    Ginny asks which character's life is tragic. I definitely think April's life is tragic; as I said earlier, I believe she has been driven mad by the neglect of her childhood. I don't sense tragedy in the others, except perhaps John Givings. No one in The Corrections lives a tragic life, I don't believe. Typical, yes.

    In terms of satire in The Corrections, Franzen seems to be satirizing the notion that we can change ourselves or others. The concept that our penal system is administered by the Department of Corrections, that a process like Corecktal could change human disposition, that kids can correct the problems of the past and not repeat their parents' mistakes - all seem to Franzen to be absurd. He seems to be ridiculing the emphasis in today's society in 2002 on altering human nature, changing brain chemistry with the use of medication, reinventing ourselves. He is showing the despite all our advances, we still face the phenomenon of the kids repeating the parents' mistakes, experiencing depression and anxiety and fear of failure.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2002 - 08:24 pm
    Brava, Sarah. Well said.

    I saw satire in the cruise scenes, not Alfred's, but the scenes at dinner with numerous different conversations going on all at once and the scene in the doctor's office. Theater of the absurd. There were other scenes I thought fit into that category. The whole cruise scene seemed surreal to me.

    Denise's hiding the Mexican A in the pocket of the Advent calendar seemed like satire to me, too. Irony? Something.

    I have wondered if the title of the book is satiric more than once.

    Denise and Chip seem very real to me, but then I've known people like that in my travels. The other characters in these books seem real to me, too, exaggerated as they may be.

    I don't think Caroline was a psychopath. I've met women like her who were whacky and destructive, but not crazy.

    Nor did I think John Givings was tragic. Yates made him very sane, a kind of circumspect observer who saw people better than they saw themselves.

    Since I often felt I was reading a series of short stories when I read The Corrections, I didn't see just one protagonist in this book; I saw many.

    What about Gitanas, Chip's alter ego? Has anyone mentioned him? I really thought he was a rather humorous figure.

    I'm still trying to figure out what Enid's scenes with Mrs. Roth had to do with the rest of the book. Surely Franzen didn't pull her in out of the blue with that horror story without a reason.

    Mal

    SarahT
    March 29, 2002 - 08:58 pm
    Yes, Mal, we talked a bit about Gitanas - the scenes with him were hilarious - I agree with you there.

    On John Givings being tragic - for me, he seemed like one of those lions locked up in a cage - so magnificent and powerful that they put him away and throw away the key. He's an object lesson for me about what happens when people dare to speak the truth. And then, of course, there's the actual real tragedy of being a schizophrenic in this society that treats the mentally ill like lepers.

    Yes, that cruise scene was truly a ship of fools experience, wasn't it?

    -----------

    So folks, we're winding down now - only two days left to complete our discussion. I'd love your final thoughts on the impact The Corrections has had on you and on the comparison between the two books (and the two eras).

    In 2002, the suburbs seem a long-ago, long-disproved attempt at a purely American, only-in-America utopia. Where else in the world would people think it's fun and relaxing to go to Wal Mart?? At least in my neck of the woods, the suburbs are becoming more and more the province of the working class and low level bureaucrats trying to find an affordable place to live regardless of the desolateness of the landscape with its strip malls and SUVs and low level country clubs. The real action is back in the City; that's where the folks with money are now. Is this happening in your neck of the woods? And what does this say about places like Revolutionary Road (an actual road in the book, you'll recall) or St. Jude or other places outside our nation's big cities? Do you think these writers got small town and suburban America right?

    MmeW
    March 30, 2002 - 04:02 am
    Ginny: I misspoke myself--I did see almost everyone as real (I cried in the next to last chapter). I guess I meant that the digressions made it harder to follow. There were whole scenes of satire on society and American life (the Corecktall scene, the Lithuania as a company scene, the Scandinavians on the cruise, some of the restaurant business, etc.) and there were paragraphs and sometimes just sentences or phrases: Orfic stands for Oak Ridge (after the nuclear reactor?) Fiduciary Investment Corporation.

    Mal: I read somewhere that the cruise scene was a nod to David Foster Wallace, who wrote a long essay in Harper’s about a cruise. I managed to find a portion of it on the web, but I haven’t had time to read it because I’ve been trying to finish the durned book! http://www.jasonblum.com/misc/dfw_shipping_out.html Like you, though, I'm not sure why Sylvia's story was in it.

    SarahT: one of my first thoughts as I began reading was of a house of corrections and I see that theme running through the novel. The Corecktall spokesman talks of the Eastern State Penitentiary, "zero corrective benefit," yet "still the basic model for corrections in the United States today." Orfic Midland had sold off their trunk lines to "enable the company to concentrate on prison-building, prison management..."

    Alfred relied on Schopenhauer: "If you want a safe compass to guide you through life...regard this world as a penitentiary, a sort of penal colony." Ironic when we consider that at the end Alfred is a prisoner of his mind and body.

    Alfred sees Denise as "a last opportunity to learn from one’s mistakes and make corrections." He would "relax the law for her."

    Alfred understood that the turd was "an escaped convict…that belonged in jail. That this was what jail was for: people who believed that they, rather than society, made the rules." The turd then accuses him of wanting everything in jail but upper-class Northern European men.

    As a child Gary made a jail, which "bore no relation to the elaborate house of correction that Alfred had imagined," and Chip made an electric chair to go in it. Later Gary dreams/fantasizes about his father being in an electric chair with his own hand on the switch.

    Chip no longer does pot, but he "still lusted for that jailbreak." Gitanas and Chip compare cigarette burns, Chip’s self-inflicted; Gitanas says: "You pathetic American." Chip replies: "Different kind of prison."

    And speaking of houses, there is a house theme, too. Enid thinks of herself as a house without walls, the only thing protecting her being her tissue version of her children and husband. We mentioned earlier the family being the house’s soul, and the lifelessness of their house. Yet "to Don Armour, the house looked like the house of rich people." Selling the house, fixing the house, "life without Alfred in the house was better for everyone but Alfred."

    And then there are economic corrections, for example, the talk on board the ship: Surviving the Corrections (which is what everyone in the book is trying to do). The characters’ feelings are constantly compared to the stock market: Gary "Declines led advances in key indices of paranoia…." Enid watches Alfred, "painfully attuned to every hopeful upswing, forever fearful of a crash. And on and on throughout. Alfred confuses economic depression with the mental state: "I’ve suffered from depression all my life," he says. "Depression years changed me. They changed the meaning of a dollar." Which brings us to money, an important influence on the characters: Chip feels that "without money, he was hardly a man." Enid hardly thinks of anything else and it is one of the major sources of her conflicts with Alfred.

    When I read the title The Corrections, I almost thought of it as the name of a family, like the Jonses or the Magnificent Ambersons, so I can’t help but think that the title refers to the Lamberts, as all of them try to correct others, or even themselves. Enid is the prime example--she has been unable to correct Alfred; he was "wrong" all his life, but the book ends with her determined to "make some changes in her life." And maybe that's why she's happier: instead of trying to change everyone else, she is going to work on herself.

    Ginny
    March 30, 2002 - 08:29 am
    Wow! All I can say is WOW! If those last four posts don't blow you away there's something wrong with YOU! hahahahaha

    Prisons, "The Magnificent Corrections," the....you all DAZZLE, you just dazzle!!

    Sarah, no, there ARE no big cities near me within commuting distance, am not sure that the suburbs carry the same connotation in rural America that they may near larger urban areas, what fascinating concepts you all bring out. I would love to hear everybody's take on this!

    And do you really believe that about people who tell the truth? Would you say then, that nobody tells the truth?

    Maybe John Givings's problem was not that he told the truth, but that he did it in an inept socially unacceptable way or shared the truth with people who were not capable of hearing it?

    Mme, I wanted to ask you if your own experiences, you spoke of some similarities in your father's job and in other things to the book, I wondered, you said you cried, if reading this (those last 25 pages) has been hard for you simply because you have more of an understanding or tie than some of us have to the text.

    I acknowledge I read it too fast? And I did fly (not skim, not skip) but FLEW thru Denise, that's my fault but she was so not believable to me, just a stick figure.

    Malryn, such a close reader, and all those Jail references, you and Sarah caught them, and I mised them entirely, because I was focusing on what I did relate to, isn't this womderful, tho, you, as a reader, read, you relate as a reader to the incidents and tone in the book and you think you know it all, but when you read it with OUR Book Groups, you, hopefully (I always do anyway) come away with much more than you would have alone.

    I can't help noticing all the references you all have made to the plethora of themes, shall we say or metaphorical ideas in the text. Would you say there are too many? Would you say they interfere? The patchwork quilt never holds together or does it? Too many distracting images for your taste?

    Which book would you say is presented better theme wise, whatever you may think the main point IS in both books, more effectively, RR or Corrections? ?

    Wonderfully done!

    Splendidly directed, Sarah!

    Well done, Group!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2002 - 11:39 am
    You all know I read these books too fast. I received them in the mail from my friend and whizzed through both of them in only a few days. Of course, I don't do much else these days besides sit at the computer and build web pages for my electronic magazines, and write and post in a couple of discussions anyway, so I had plenty of time.

    I'll tell you the truth. I am intimidated by the book discussions in Books and Lit here in SeniorNet. I read as a writer much too often, just as I analyzed music for years every time I heard it after studying all phases of it for so long. Because of this I don't always relate to a book as others do.

    When I write much of what I do is based on personal observations and experiences I've had, though the characters and settings are all a patchwork quilt of that and imagination. When I read I use much the same technique, and I see authors using similar tricks to what I've hit on that I think a reader who doesn't write all the time might not perceive.

    Because of that difference, I nearly came in and deleted two of my posts because I didn't think they were worthwhile or significant to this discussion. I had to lie awake some hours in bed one night and convince myself that my points were as valid as anyone else's before I got rid of the idea.

    This discussion and the people in it have given me courage to join another discussion about a fictional work -- if I ever can get my hands on the book. Thank you all.

    Life as a self-made prison. I am re-reading Walden right now, and I'm sure Thoreau would agree with that idea. The people who live their lives in "quiet desperation". I know for fact that people can change themselves and how they react. I also know that people can't change anyone else. This theme ran through both these books, in my opinion.

    Well, it's been great, and I thank you all for your kindness to this person who jumped in at almost the last minute.

    Mal

    MmeW
    March 30, 2002 - 11:42 am
    SarahT: No one in The Corrections lives a tragic life, I don't believe. Typical, yes. I think that is what is so tragic about it. I think that’s why I cried: the sense of the ephemeral nature of life, maybe the futulity of all the foorah. Franzen hints at the cyclical nature of life in his economic corrections references, but he drives it home in the scene on the ship. The investment counselor Jim Crolius* on the ship says: "No matter how green things are for you right now, it’s not going to survive the winter." "'Death,’ Enid thought. ‘He was talking about death. And all the people clapping were so old .’"

    Chip has a revelation in Lithuania, that he has been thinking all wrong. Gitanas has given him the clue to revising his screenplay: "tragedy rewritten as farce." Is that what Franzen has done?

  • interesting coincidence that a Titanic survivor eventually married a man named Crolius and died in Philadelphia in 1958.

    Ginny, I guess I did relate also to a certain extent because of my father. Denise thought: "For the man who’d taken care to protect her privacy and who had only ever asked that his privacy be respected, too, wasn’t the kindest course to let him suffer by himself and not compound his suffering with the shame of being witnessed?" To Alfred, his daughter was "the person he least wanted to be seen by in the grip of his affliction" and Denise sensed that.

    She’d never really known her father. Probably nobody had. With his shyness and his formality and his tyrannical rages he protected his interior so ferociously that if you loved him, as she did, you learned that you could do him no greater kindness than to respect his privacy. Alfred, likewise had shown his faith in her by taking her at face value: by declining to pry behind the front that she presented. . . . The odd truth about Alfred was that love, for him, was a matter not of approaching but of keeping away.

    Speaking of which, I was blown away by the reveal. I had asked earlier about why Alfred retired so precipitously and thank you all for not telling me! Franzen hinted at it in a sentence that seemed to be a non sequitur on p. 68: "The betrayal had begun in Signals." I find it really noble that Alfred takes it on the chin for Denise (again and again from Enid about the loss of retirement income).

    Despite the fact that Alfred is thought to be a shouter, a punisher, a killer, we don’t really see that. All we see is Alfred suffering, protecting Denise, protecting Enid even ("Denise, that’s enough now"), and Enid constantly yammering, criticizing, "correcting" the others.

    Denise recognizes that Chip has always misunderstood Alfred, thinking that he loved his children "only to the degree that they succeeded." He didn’t realize that "if there was anybody in the world whom Alfred did love purely for his own sake, it was Chip." But his Lithuanian revelation isn’t the only one Chip has: when Chip returns, "nowhere in the nation of Lithuania was there a room like the Lambert living room…Chip apprehended it all in a heartbeat. The continent, his homeland. . . .The tiles [were] saturated with an aura of belonging to this family. The house felt more like a body—softer, more mortal and organic—than like a building." His sister and father both clung to him and "he felt as if his consciousness had been shorn of all identifying marks and transplanted, metempsychotically, into the body of a steady son, a trustworthy brother." Finally, "Chip seemed beloved to the old man." And then he is freed (from his own "different prison") to become the man we knew he could be. (And the house images continue.)

    Mal, I know for a fact that people can change themselves and how they react. I also know that people can't change anyone else. This theme ran through both these books, in my opinion. Bravo!! I think you've managed to sum it all up in two sentences!
  • MmeW
    March 30, 2002 - 09:21 pm
    In view of what I just posted about Alfred and his privacy, can you imagine how horrible his days in the nursing home were with Enid kissing and fondling him AND telling him how wrong he was.

    Ginny: I read so closely that I often can't see the forest for the trees, and it takes me a long time afterwards to try to process the "whole."

    Jo Meander
    March 30, 2002 - 10:55 pm
    I wonder if satire, the device for illuminating human folly, can also a veiled way of expressing empathy. I think Franzen likes his characters, for the most part, and that while he believes their behavior merits satire, he still wishes they could suffer less. Their pretensions are not conscious trickery; they are ways of coping with life when it seems unfair or painful. Enid is trying to make life pleasant and satisfying, and she doesn’t see why Alfred was so remote and often antagonistic. Alfred wonders this about himself, and wishes he could express his love for his children more openly. His is the most tragic life of all. Struggling with his terrible disability, he tries to repair the Christmas lights. He recognizes the belief that we will have endless chances to “fix” things, to make them turn out well, to make the right corrections, is a delusion. But I don’t know if that means he’s the only protagonist. Maybe they are all protagonists (the original family). The parents and sons seem real to me, more real than the characters in Revolutionary Road, although April and Frank were tragic figures. Denise remains a bit elusive, though.


    Both books were absorbing, thought provoking, but this one really grabbed me,in part because it is so contemporary. I could imagine all these people, all the scenes, even Chip’s Lithuanian escapade with his “brother” Gitanas. Fanzen created a mirror image of Chip in him. Chip was frantically trying to put his life together after losing his teaching job, seizing any irregular jigsaw piece of opportunity that came his way. Gitanas was trying to build a little empire for himself out of the pieces of his country’s political and economic ruin.

    I know we are out of time. I’ve been caught up with the holiday preparations and haven’t even made the best use of my notes (not enough of those, anyway! Mostly marked pages!) I really appreciate the wonderful insights everyone has provided. They have added so much to my understanding of this book!

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2002 - 11:35 pm
    Alfred was my husband for 26 years, and believe me, you wouldn't want to be married to him. I was not Enid, though. My free, artistic spirit escaped through frantic cleaning to work off anger, and doing anything creative like cooking better than a French chef, writing and painting, as well as taking care of three kids (while my particular Alfred went on longer than 11 day excursions) and drinking beer and wine and rebelling, which is what my latest book is about. It's funny that Alfred was a Midwesterner. I thought these characteristics were restricted to strait-laced New England men.

    The family situation Franzen created was quite realistic, but not the same in my life. My kids had different Alfred-caused problems.

    The Alfreds of the world can cause a great deal of damage. I felt no sympathy for him, even when he was reduced to next to nothing. Alfred was probably Franzen's truest character with Denise and Chip as runners up.

    P.S.
    Don't tell anybody what I said, will you? Thanks!

    Mal

    MmeW
    March 31, 2002 - 03:56 pm
    Since this is our last day, I guess it’s time to "let go" of Corrections and try to compare the two. I see RR as more character-driven, with the characters being the basis of the criticism of society at that time. Also, in those days there was less opportunity to "find yourself," to pursue your dreams; nowadays, at least according to The Corrections, anything goes.

    I first thought about the characters. I think there’s no doubt that Enid and Mrs. Givings are virtually twins in their concern about appearances, though Mrs. G in her unhappiness with her husband has found an outlet in her work which Enid doesn’t have. Actually, Mrs. G (born circa 1900) was ahead of her time. She is 20 some years older than Enid (born 1920-25), yet Enid is trapped in that 50s syndrome of living for your husband, home and kids.

    Lucky Howard had his hearing aid, but was he as domineering to the children as Alfred? John backs away from Howard "like a cornered fugitive, his face distorted in a mixture of menace and fear."

    I see a lot of similarities between Frank and Gary in their concern with maintaining image and refusing to become involved/identified with their work, for different reasons, perhaps; Frank "to keep from being contaminated" and Gary to keep from being like his father.

    And I see a connection between Shep and Chip in their youthful (?) exploits and in their eventually settling down and coming to terms with their past.

    What strikes me is that we all seemed so much more passionate discussing RR. I can’t help but feel that all Franzen’s digressions do distance us from the characters, even though they seem more real and three-dimensional than Yates’. Mal said, "I'd call this book a remarkable insight into people, moreso than The Corrections is." But to Jo the characters in the Corrections seemed more real.

    Loneliness: Yates said, "If my work has a theme, I suspect it is a simple one: that most human beings are inescapably alone, and therein lies their tragedy." And we all agreed that the RR people were lonely and alone. But Jo said about RR: Paradox? The cure for isolation is family, the thing we fear and try to escape from! Each is operating in a personal vacuum, gaining little or no sustenance from the people who "should" be closest to them." I think we see the same thing at work in The Corrections. Once Alfred is "out of the house," however, you see them begin to lean on each other again. In that sense, I think The Corrections offers the sort of solution to isolation that Jo suggests.

    Truth: Mal said (before having read RR!), "I have come away thinking The Corrections is as much about deception, especially self-deception, as it is corrections," something I think we all agreed was a theme of RR also. In RR, it seemed that, as Jo said, "self-recognition or recognition of truths that clash with our cherished beliefs are painful." But in The Corrections, I think Chip’s and Denise’s realizations (about the truth of Alfred’s caring for them), actually set them free, as the saying goes.

    Which brings us to Change: Ginny said, "Do we ever change? We all are raised in America to believe we can do or be anything - and yet the message in so many of these books is that none of us ever really change. This is the first parallel I see between this book and Revolutionary Road." However, as you all know, I do see change in The Corrections, and a kind of hopefulness that wasn’t at all present in RR. Ginny also said, I think we do change, that is if we're lucky, if we grow and mature? It's part of growing up, these scales falling from the eyes of the young." And I see that in The Corrections. But I think both books reflect what Mal said: "There's really only one thing anyone can change and correct in life, and that's himself or herself." Also, "It's my feeling that you can't truly change and correct circumstances unless you change and correct your reaction to them."

    I also see parallels in the "escape" theme (Mal’s Geographic cure) and in Alfred’s and Frank’s attitude toward money and man being the breadwinner (remember that they are contemporaries).

    I think both books are autobiographical, mainly because Yates seemed like a very lonely man, and Franzen was born in Illinois, raised in a suburb of St. Louis, went to Swarthmore (Pennsylvania) and lives in New York. Russo said: "In the end I think it is Yates’s relentless, unflinching investigation of our secret hearts, and his speaking to us in language as clear and honest and unadorned and unsentimental and uncompromising as his vision, that makes him such a great writer." The Boston Globe said: "The greatest strength of The Corrections, and there are many, is its skillful narrative relativism, the way it delivers one version of the truth about a character, then fleshes out that reality over time into something larger and more complex . . ." and I tend to agree with both.

    Since we are winding up, I just want to say what a pleasure (nay, obsession) it has been to participate in this discussion (my first). It has made reading both books a much more enriching experience; your insights were fascinating. In fact, I’m sure that I wouldn’t have finished The Corrections; both huge books to which it has been compared lie at my bedside, DeLillo’s Underworld (almost done) and Wallace’s Infinite Jest (largely unfinished). Thank you all, Ginny, SarahT, Jo, Ed, Mal, babsNH (hope you enjoy this when you get back), Betty and Rambler (where have you two been?), and anyone else I forgot. I’m skipping The Sea (I HAVE to do my income tax, and I’ll be out of town), but hope to be back again. (Well, maybe I’ll peek in…)

    MmeW

    rambler
    March 31, 2002 - 06:04 pm
    Shallow (and perhaps silly and off-topic) question: Why do women seem so much more fascinated with fiction than men? I should re-word that: Why do women seem so much more fascinated with fiction than men are?

    MmeW
    March 31, 2002 - 07:50 pm
    Rambler, there you are! It is so funny that you would ask that because when I was wandering through the old posts today, I found yours saying that you don't usually read or like fiction, and I was asking myself the same question about men. Despite being a sometimes lit teacher, my husband was definitely a reader of nonfiction. In answer to your question, I don't know. Maybe it's because in fiction there are "possibilities," whereas in nonfiction, it's there, it's happened, no chance to wonder what the end might be. But I am definitely a fiction reader, except that I am reading Adam Gopnik's Paris to the Moon (which I bought for my husband) in preparation for a Paris trip. I am enjoying it, but I can guarantee that it puts me to sleep--I'm not going to stay up all night reading it. Maybe it's because fiction helps us (women) learn how people work, and men don't really care, being very private people; they want to see how the world works based on empirical data. Then why are so many of our great fiction writers men?

    Ginny
    April 1, 2002 - 05:46 am
    Mme, that's a brilliant summing up (can't take credit for the "change" question, that was Sarah), (when are you going to Paris, I am too?!?) but you're done such a masterful job with both books and thrown in Russo too I personally can't begin to even comment, afraid of breaking the spell.

    What happened here, in the last 6 or so posts of yours, was the very best you can hope for in a discussion, it seemed almost that a dam burst and all these fabulous ideas spilled out and of course were added to the fabric of the quilt of discussion we all built here, I can't BELIEVE this is your first book discussion with us, MME!! I sure hope it's not your last!

    BabsNH, I hope you enjoyed seeing you were not alone, after all, in your regard for Franzen.

    I loved this from Mme: all Franzen’s digressions do distance us from the characters, even though they seem more real and three-dimensional than Yates’.

    That "distance us from the characters" brought me up short. Yates's writing is simple, deceptively so, wouldn't you say, yet we somehow, did we? Felt closer or.....was there something there which distanced us too, remember Ed said they were shallow figures.

    And I have to throw out a reaction to somebody !!??!! (sorry) who said much earlier that Gary collected memorabilia of trains. Wasn't Gary the one who had the model railroads? The little kingdom he could control?

    JO mentioned, "I wonder if satire, the device for illuminating human folly, can also a veiled way of expressing empathy. " I'm now trying to think if (and I know the discussion is nominally over) there is ONE character I can personally relate to in either book, or if the best I can do is emphathize (sp?)? Yates had that feeling of longing, he always has longing in his books, Enid has a longing, for a better life. As Malryn said she hopes to achieve this by correcting Alfred by means of the children.

    Do you think that whoever the B&N reviewer was who compared these two books did you a favor by mentioning RR in connection with Corrections, or not?

    Splendid bright intelligent wonderful discussion, many many thanks to all of you, this one's a KEEPER!

    ginny

    MmeW
    April 1, 2002 - 09:35 am
    "With the lifting of his 'depression,' he'd developed a new interest, hobbylike in its intensity, in framable and collectible railroad memorabilia, and he could happily spent the whole day--the whole week--pursuing it." (494) "Gary breezed into the kitchen with the railroad memorabilia that he'd bought at the Museum of Transport." (516) Model railroads, too, "a hobby that he'd chosen for himself, rather than having it chosen for him..." (498)

    April in Paris, of course, Ginny. (15-24)

    Jo Meander
    April 1, 2002 - 10:20 am
    I guess it's a good thing this IS over, because if I had any more time (after that "true confessions" last post of Mal's) I'd wind up saying too much!
    MmeW, I have to echo Ginny's thanks for the great summary. Hope to READ you again!
    I also can't resist saying that Chip's my guy! Maybe it was the fish in the pants scene! It certainly was the whole atmophere of panicked flight, trying desperate "geographical cures" for the awful messes he gets into, but I identify with the endless seeking for solutions to turmoil and stress. THAT'S ALL FOLKS!

    SarahT
    April 1, 2002 - 10:38 am
    MmeW, Mal and Jo - and of course Ginny - wow, you really did about the best summation I could ever imagine. This has been a wonderful experience and I hope to see you in another discussion soon.

    Oddly enough, despite the depressing nature of these two books, I feel somehow uplifted - probably because of the deep thinking you all have done. There's something inspiring about examining the human condition as I believe we have done here and finding meaning in it.

    I have loved your contributions. Thank you for making this such a fulfilling experience for me!

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 1, 2002 - 02:57 pm
    If you'd like to see what happened to the wife of the "Other Alfred", take a look at the April issue of The WREX Magazine. Maybe you'd even be interested in reading a humorous little ditty by Marilyn Freeman aka Malryn called How Alicia Ended up in the Hoosegow.

    Mal

    Joan Pearson
    April 2, 2002 - 07:48 am
    Still here? I thought you might be interested in the results of the Pen/Faulkner Prize announced last night ~
    Pen-Faulkner Award
    "....Instead, the eerily timely "Bel Canto" was published in May, and yesterday came the happiest ending of all: The book won the 2002 PEN/Faulkner Award for Fiction.

    The novel edged out four other finalists: "The Corrections" by Jonathan Franzen, "Sister Noon" by Karen Joy Fowler, "The Hunters" by Claire Messud and "The Death of Vishnu" by Manil Suri.

    Patchett receives $15,000 -- the largest peer-juried prize for fiction in the United States -- and the finalists each take home $5,000. All five writers will be honored May 11 at the 22nd annual ceremony at the Folger Shakespeare Library."


    The finalists will be speaking at the Folger Library all through the coming year. Wouldn't it be fine if Mr. Franzen were to be the speaker in September when the Books gather for the Bookfest? Will YOU be there?

    Marjorie
    April 2, 2002 - 09:04 pm
    Thanks to all of the participants. This discussion is now being archived.