Shadow of the Wind ~ Carlos Ruiz Zafon ~ Read Aro Export

Welcome to
Shadow of the Wind
by Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Carlos Ruiz Zafon's story is set in Spain in the post World War II years, where a young man falls in love with a book by Julian Carax, an obscure author. As he tries to find other books by Carax he discovers that they have all been burned and this prompts him to find out more about the author. This is a book about books, where the characters reflect other characters. A book about a mysterious book and its mysterious author.
"Anyone who enjoys novels that are scary, erotic, touching, tragic and thrilling should rush right out and pick up The Shadow of the Wind." (Washington Post)

Interview with Ruiz Zafon penguinputnam.com
About Ruiz Zafon thebookseller.com

This is a book about and for book lovers. Won't you please join us?

For Your Consideration

Why do you think the books were being destroyed?

Of all you learned from this last section, what surprised you the most?

How do you explain the actions of Fortuny, the hatter, as he moves from disliking Julian and plotting against him, to showing such intense grief?

Why did Jorge Aldaya turn against Miquel Molinar?

Why is the chapter "Postmortem, November, 1955" in italics?

Of his wedding, Daniel says, "All that remains in my memory is the touch of her lips and, when I half opened my eyes, the secret oath I carried with me on my skin and would remember all the days of my life." What secret oath?

Why does Carax dedicate his last book to Beatriz?

Who is the protagonist of this book?

What is the Shadow of the Wind?

What do you think the author wants us to take from the reading of this book? Does he have a message for us?
What we know already || Previous Questions

Discussion Schedule
Oct. 1-8	Cemetery of Forgotten Books - Chapter 15
Oct. 9-15	Chapter 16 - Chapter 28
Oct. 16-22	Chapter 29 - Chapter 44
Oct. 23-31	Remembrance of the Lost - End

Discussion Leader: Pedln

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Book Discussion Guidelines | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet’s site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please Contact Books

Welcome to Shadow of the Wind, the October book selection for Read Around the World. If you would like to participate in this discussion, please indicate your interest here. In spite of the runaway vote at RATW, we still need to show a quorum.

This was rated one of the Best Books of 2004 by the Washington Post. It is now available in paperback.

I'm in! I'm in! THIS is one of the best books I read all year, it's wonderful, it's a book no person should miss, it sweeps you away and the dishes get left and the floors do not shine, and the glories of travel pale while you rush back to the room to read and see what happens. What a book!

I'm IN ININ and I hope you all are, too!

count me in?

I have stepped up to the plate in other reading groups in SenioNet, but then have not
contributed anything significant.
But since I have already read about 3/4 of the book, and unlike you, Ginny,
I did not find it compelling, I ought to join as a voice, probably, of minority dissent. Should I?

Wonderful, wonderful, Kidsal, I know our Pedln, now peddlin thru another long drive will be delighted to see you and but of COURSE our Mippy, wonderful to see you! You may be the Justice Douglass of the group!

We need all impressions that's how we learn, welcome to you both!

I'm going to order the book. I'll be busy in Oct. (won't we all!!) but I should be able to join in.

Marni

Marni, Mippy, kidsal, and Ginny!!!

Hooray, we're all in -- like sin, ha ha. That is just great and a disenter, to boot. That's what makes life interesting, right? I'm so glad to hear from you all.

I haven't read it -- started it a few months back, but then went out of town, and stuff, so took it back to the library. Now I've got it again, but I want to check the used books, so I can be like Andrea and mark it all up with notes and stuff. (And believe me, that's hard for a librarian to do.)

'Nuff said. I'm up in Chicago on my brother's laptop. This morning I wandered all over one of the largest shopping malls in the midWest, but didn't see anything i liked better than what I brought for the wedding I'm atending in Wisconsin tomorrow. Had to go shoe shopping -- I brought two brown shoes, but they were not from the same pair.

Must go get the Latin assignment and put it on my flash, but will be back with you all Tuesday sometime, if not before. We are going to have a terrific discussion.

I have a copy of Shadow of the Wind. People are raving about this book. I would like to read along with the group.

I am so pleased that this selection won. It is a fabulous read and consider it one of the best books I've read this year.

Hi, All! I'm so happy that this book was selected. I read it some time ago and will be glad to re-read it with you. It's one of the books that you SEE as you read. I don't know how exactly an author produces that wonderful sense of presence, the sign of a great writer, but it's so fine to discover. Count me in!

JoanR

Hats and Joan, welcome aboard. I'm so glad you'll be with us. I like that idea, Joan, a book you can see.

Alf, I sure hope you'll be joining us too.

Hi, I am going to try this discussion also. Not fair having two great books I loved being discussed at the same time.

I will try to keep up. Shadow of the Wind kept me reading until the weeee hours.

Sandy

Sandy says, "Not fair having two great books I loved being discussed at the same time."

I understand, Sandy. They're both great books, and I'm glad we don't have to choose just one. Not to mention Latin, too. I'm really glad that you can join us.

Oh yes, pedln I'll be joining in also. I'm not quite sure why this book moved me the way that it did, but it was one of those stories that grabbed me right away. I love his writing and as I pondered some of his thoughts, I became swept into the adventure of the story.

How did the wedding go Pedln?

Andy, great, so glad you'll be with us. It will be interesting to see if any of your perspectives change with discussion and second reading.

The wedding was delightful -- all outside, by a lake, weather cooperating beautifully. And the four-legged ringbearer was perfect, carrying the rings on the blue bow around her neck.

Pedlin ~ So very glad to hear the wedding went well. Best Wishes to all!

I'd like to join your disscussion in October. Looking forward to it.

Scrawler, welcome. We'd be delighted to have you here.

I went to pick up my copy today at B&N and there were about half-dozen people around me and they said the same thing. That had just read this book and really liked it. Now if you can get this kind of reaction from six perfect strangers - I really can't wait to read this book.

What a rich book this is. I am enjoying it so much and can't wait until we all start talking about. I hope everyone has a copy. Some of you have read it entirely, I know, and some haven't. I'm trying not to read too far ahead of discussion. There is a discussion schedule posted in the heading. If, as we go along, any of you think it should be tweaked or changed, please speak up. Nothing is carved in stone.

I've asked our technical people to post some questions for your consideration. They should be up soon. And I don't doubt that you will all have plenty of your own.

Our own ALF is going to be here Oct. 1 to start off the discussion. I'm "on the road" and will be fishing this weekend with my daughters, but will be back Sunday. Can't wait to hear what you all have to say.

Good morning everyone and welcome to our discussion of Shadow of the Wind, by Carlos Ruiz Zafon. Pedln is away with her beloved daughters fishing and will join us soon. In the meantime she has prepared a few questions for our consideration. Please feel comfortable to tackle them and join right in.

This novel grabbed me right from the introduction entitled The Cemetery of Forgotten Books. Here we meet our protagonist, the innocent Daniel; a young lad of ten, motherless who makes “invisible friends in pages that seemed cast from dust” and whose smell he still carries on his hands.

War- torn Barcelona is trying to recover and the scene has been set. It feels sinister and foreboding as Daniel follows his adoring father through the dark, narrow streets to this “cemetery” where his father insists on secrecy. “This is a place of mystery, a sanctuary” he’s told. Every book, every volume you see here has a soul.” The soul of the person who wrote it and of those who read it and lived and dreamed with it. Every time a book changes hands every time someone runs his eyes down its pages, its spirit grows and strengthens.
Let me promise you that is some of the most heart-felt words I have ever read. I knew exactly what he was saying and it moved me to tears. Did anyone ever sense themselves becoming enmeshed in this book where you becme a piece of it, a fragment of the authors imagination and you, too, were off and running on this wonderful voyage?

What Alf says was absolutely true for me. "Did anyone ever sense themselves becoming enmeshed in this book where you becme a piece of it, a fragment of the authors imagination and you, too, were off and running on this wonderful voyage?"

I read the book several months back. I won't be joining the discussion but I'll be reading the posts. I loved ever page and was sad when it ended. You WILL be on a voyage of events and ideas.

~Marj

Oh no, please don't go. I am here all by myself (talking to myself is normal for me) but Pedln will accuse me of scaring away the masses. Where is everybody today? Come help me solve the mystery. I can not wait until someone talks about Fermin, my favorite character, the character.

Anybody up for answering one of the questions above. Yoo-hoo whaere are you?

I almost cried when I read this: "In this place, books no longer remembered by anyone, books that are lost in time, live forever, waiting for the day when they will reach a new reader's hands." Oh! If only there was such a place!

I just recently left an area of Portland, Oregon where they were not only closing schools, but libraries as well. It was one of the few times I wished I had all the money in the world so I could buy up all those books that nobody wanted any more.

I personally love old books - I love the smell and feel of them. I tend to wonder who has read them before, especially when they have an inscription in it. And yes, I believe a single book contains pieces of the many souls that have read that book.

Just as we leave our oils from our fingerprints, I'd like to think we leave a part of our soul as well and these are carried to next person who reads the book. As in this discussion we are all connected because of the desire to read this novel, I think we are also connected in the same way every time we read any book.

I love this book and that line you quote, Andrea, was very moving to me, too. I read it in Paris and found myself hooked, what a premise! I don't think anybody has ever done anything like it before.

I loved that about the soul of the book and how every time somebody reads it, it comes alive again. Nobody but a book lover could have written this, and the very concept of a Cemetery of Lost Books is just almost mind boggling.

I'll have more to say when the grape customers.

Scrawler- that is a beautiful post and I agree whole-heartedly with you. I've not heard of any libraries closing but I would politic in behalf of any public library that was facing that kind of disaster. We read books for so for many different reasons, don't we- to provide us with company, to romance our souls, to pique our sense of adventure or merely just to learn a bit more about someone or someplace. What an absolute disaster it would be if we were prevented from reaching out for a book, in our desires.

I, too, have leafed thru the pages of an old book and wondered what type of person had been there before me and why they chose that particular selection. Have you ever tried to feel the "spirit" or the essence of a novel? Have you ever had a book strike you the way that Shadow of the Wind struck Daniel?
What would you do to save it if it were threatened with obscurity?

Was it ever established in the book WHAT was it about the book which DID strike Daniel?

Andrea don't forget us in the Sweetgrass either! I don't think you will have gotten my email since I'm not sure you're at home.

I'm home Ginny, we returned late Wed. night. I'll be checking in soon.

It seemed that Daniel was almost mysteriously drawn to his book in the Cemetery of Lost Books. He did notice the book's spine, but from quite a distance, it seemed. It had to be something else. The way the scene was described, I felt the book was calling him.

The Cemetery of Lost Books - it sounds like a burial ground for books. But, although the books are buried in the great maze, they are buried so that they can be found and saved.

I thought the Cemetery of Lost Books was wonderfully interesting. We've been so lucky in the U.S. for much of our history (although not all) that we've been able to treat writings with respect whether or not we agree with their contents. There have been so many countries and times throughout history where books have been burned and destroyed because some tyrant or extremist group wants the ideas wiped out. Underground movements have had to save books and the ideas they present from extinction. Just think of all the books that are gone forever.

This makes me think of the Library of Herculaneum, the Villa of the Papyri, that we discussed in Latin 101 recently. So many books in papyrus, so rare at the time of the Mt. Vesuvius eruption, destroyed. But a new method is being used to separate the charred pages and x-rays techniques are being used to decipher some of the lines. Once thought lost, these lost books may be found again to some extent.

Marni

I have only just laid hands on the book - it is apparently selling like hotcakes here in the land of OZ so can't say anything just yet. Added to that we're going away for the next week so will join you when we get back, if I may.

Was sad to watch the interview on CNN with the librarian who was standing in her library among the water soaked books. She thought it would be years before the library could be opened again after Hurricane Rita.

Marni Welcome to the Cemetery. You are so right in your thoughts about books that are forever gone from our reach. Included with the destroyed Mt.Vesuvius papyrus extinction let us not forget the thousands of books and art treasures that were obliterated by the Nazis. (Here we all thought Farenheit was a book of fiction.) I’ve not heard of this new method that you mentioned of separating charred pages and using xrays. Where is this being done?

gumtree WELCOME to you also. If you have just laid your hands on the book, you’ll be a “goner” in no time. It sucks you into Daniel’s adventure and you begin to read faster and faster to find out what happens to each character. We look forward to your joining us and sharing your own thoughts when you return from your trip.

kidsal I missed witnessing that horror, on CNN , thank God. I always wonder how someone like our own resident librarians Pedln and Jane feel when they hear or see something this dire happening in our libraries.

What did you think of Daniel falling in love with Gustavo Barcelo’s beautiful blind daughter Clara (at almost eleven years old?) She relates the story of her father’s capture, imprisionment and ultimate torture in a cell in the Montjuic Castle. This castle still stands on this mountain of Montjuic which rises to 699 feet above the port on the south side of the city in Barcelona. The Romans called it Mons Jovis and built a temple to Jupiter there. A Jewish cemetery on the hill probably inspired its name (Mount of the Jews). I’ll have to check this out but I think the castle itself was built in the 1600’s.

She admonishes him to “never trust anyone, especially the people you admire. Those are the ones who will make you suffer the worst blows.” Have any of you experienced this pain by someone you knew and trusted the most? Or should I say, have any of you been fortunate enough NOT to have endured this pain?

With the introduction of Clara, we also meet the pretentious Monsieur Rouquefort, who was overcome with Carax's book The Red House, which he lent to his teenage pupils, Clara and her sister. Monsieur Roq. investigates more literary accomplishments of Carax only to find that this obscure author is down on his luck and copies of his books were returned and reduced to "pulp." Honestly, I have never heard of that. Does anyone here know anything about "pulp"? Do they really do this to books to make missals, and lottery tickets?

Anyway, here we learn of the authors fate. "It seemed his fortunes had improved. " He wrote The Shadow, was to marry and the circumstances were unclear but the day he was to marry, a duel took place and he was on the losing end of it.

I was somewhat taken aback by that, too, Andrea, and wondered what she meant by that and what might happen. I think one reason that people are the "most" hurt by those they admire is they endow those people with qualities that don't exist, and so naturally, being human, they fail themselves and others.

I was somewhat shocked to hear a representative of the Glencoe Publishing Company tell one of our Latin students who had inquired about a text that they don't save them, when the new edition comes out they destroy the old one! Even those only one year old, what a terrible waste. We're using text books some of which are 50 years old, and I heard some true horror stories recently from a person who ran a big chain bookstore. What did YOU think happened to books, those former bestsellers on the remainder tables? Did you think they went back to the publisher (they do) and what did you think happened then?

So the idea of a Cemetery of Lost Books really appeals to me, I have something of that here in some of my small collections of strange and old books, actually, I bet we all do.

Ginny, oh no! NO! What a dunce I must be, I never considered the fact that a book must be destroyed. I remember one time, a long timee ago, I was reading the worst piece of trash I'd ever opened and took great pleasure in burning it. I guess I didn't think that others did this, only me-- in my vindictive state of mind. I still use books that are old and the thought of one of them hitting the incinerator or the pulp machine saddens me.

Perhaps it is true- when you are slighted by someone you don't know well, it matters not. When you are hurt by one you love, the pain runs deep. Maybe that is what Clara meant- her father was betrayed.

It's very sad to see libraries closed because of devastation, like hurricane Rita or Katrina, and even sadder when they're closed because the administrators of the city or school have "no money"...or the schools which have now only rooms with computers...and not a single reference or book for reading in the place. The administrators think the computer and internet can replace all of that. I disagree, obviously.

My library doesn't have the book yet, so I'll have to catch up when I can.

jane

Oh no we'll always need books, I am sure you all saw Laura Bush calling at the National Book Festival (or so I saw on C Span) for a new initiative called First Book or something like that, One Book? where people donate to fill those libraries devastated by the storms and floods. You'd think the publishers would want to be first in line, but I expect libraries have their own wish lists.

I'd be happy to send you my copy when we're finished with the discussion if you'd like. Ginny, I'd love to send any book for a contribution when such disasters occur. Be careful now, the last time you did this we supplied the entire prison system of SC with books.

hahaha I am not doing this, Andrea, Laura Bush is, or so they announced, maybe Pearson will have news of a part for us, tho, I think it's money donations they are raising tho and not the actual books, but you never know. Good of you!!

Am tearing the house apart looking for Shadows of the Wind, I put it down "somewhere" yesterday and it's gone!

Re: the new method of deciphering the books in the Library of the Papryi....

Here's an article that explains. You have to read down a few paragraphs until you reach the explanation.

Library of Papryi

When Clara says, “...never trust anyone, especially the people you admire. Those are the ones who will make you suffer the worst blows.”.....

I felt like this was a warning to Daniel about his investigation into Carax. I'm anticipating that someone he trusts to help him in this quest will turn out to be a villain.

One of the reasons when I wrote my book, I went with an ON-Demand company. Which means that they can print one book or a thousand (wishful thinking on my part - the one thousand I mean). It not only saves trees, but it makes sure there won't be any destroyed or left in a dusty, dirty warehouse somewhere. And it also means they will continue to print my book 50 years after my death.

Do you think this story could take place in any city other than Barcelona?

Interesting question. The only other countries that I would say that have Barcelona's unique backdrop would be war-torn Paris or Berlin and than the titles would have read:

"L'Ombre du vent" - France and "Der Schatten des Windes" - Germany. But I think the Spanish title "La Sombra del Viento" rolls off your tongue much easier. So I do think Barcelona is the place for me.

"For almost half an hour, I wandered within the winding labyrinth, breathing in the smell of old paper and dust. I let my hand brush across the avenues of exposed spines, musing over what my choice would be. Among the titles faded by age, I distinguished words in familiar languages and others I couldn't identify. I roamed through galleries filled with hundreds, thousands of volumes...It might have been that notion, or just chance, or its more flamboyant relative, destiny, but at that precise moment I knew I had already chosen the book I was going to adopt, or that was going to adopt me. It stood out timidly on one corner of a shelf, bound in wine-colored leather. The gold letters of its title gleamed in the light bleeding from the dome above. I drew near and caressed them with the tips of my fingers, reading to myself..." (pp.6-7)

Two things standout for me in this paragraph. First, it reminds me of when I first visited San Francisco's public library in downtown San Francisco. In the 1950s they were always continuing to re-build after the various earthquakes that shook it almost to its foundations. At the time I remember being very small and building being extremely tall. It almost felt like a cave, but it was not cold or dark; rather it made me feel warm and cosy as if it was a place where I could be secure against the cold, foggy city of San Francisco.

The other thing I remember is that the books seemed to come flying off the shelves as if they knew a young reader when they saw one. To this day, that still happens. I happened to be in Barnes and Noble just the other day and I quite literally got bonked on the head by a book and low and behold it was the very book I'd been looking for but was looking on the wrong shelf. Makes you wonder doesn't it. Have any of you had a similar experence?

Paper is made from pulp, a thick mess of wood chips (and, perhaps, used papers products) and chemicals that is cooked in big vats and looks sort of like oatmeal. It's rolled into huge sheets of flat paper through giant rollers and dried and then cut down to smaller size to make paper.

See: Process of Making Paper:

http://www.bowater.com/paper.html

They re-use paper products by returning them to a pulp stage and remaking paper.

Well I must be from the dark ages but I truly thought that the "pulp" type of paper is/was from standard newspapers shredded, saved and processed. (That I, myself, save to preserve a bloody tree.)

NO! Marni--- Not a book-- tell me that a book is not being "pulped!" This discussion is starting to depress me.

Yeah, all those books that go back to the publishers, that the bookstores can't sell, that's what they do with them, believe it or not.

I'm buying more books. I am definetely buying more books to store. Do NOT tell Bill.

It's interesting how we're talking about books being recycled. It's another example of our throw-away culture. That's the 21st century for you. Until quite recently, books would not have been mass produced to the extent that they are today. And before the machine age, they would have been harder to make and more rare.

I don't think recycling books is such a bad thing. We're re-using the materials. And, hopefully, plenty of the book are still available in various private and public libraries.

It's interesting to see what makes books rare. Some are ancient. Some were produced in very small quantities. I was hunting down an online version of the official report of the Lewis and Clark expedition, produced as a compilation of the journals in book form. A copy was selling online for $65,000. It was rare and expensive, not so much because there were hardly any copies available, but because a map which came in the book was missing in most remaining copies. Those with the map were rare.

Marni

I'm feeling that the author Julian Carax is not dead. Does anyone else feel like this? The reports of his death that Daniel is hearing are different. It seems like no one really knows what happened to him. So, I'm guessing that he's going to pop up later to surprise us because we're supposed to think he's dead. Have I seen too many movies?

Marni

I've also been getting confused by the different characters. I got to a certain point and said to myself, "Who IS that person, anyway???" I had to go back to the beginning and skim to remember. Could it be the all the Spanish (Catalan?) names, streets, buildings, etc. Plus a lot of characters in the book? Maybe I'm reading too many books at once?? I hope it's nothing serious!

Does anyone know anything about Catalonia's history? That's where Barcelona is. I know practically nothing. And it seems to be extremely important in the story - civil war especially. I know that section of Spain is almost like an independent country and I think they have fought for their independence. They speak their own language, Catalan. They even have their own government today, I believe, separate from the rest of Spain.

Here are a couple of sites with info about Barcelona and Catalonia:

http://www.aboutbarcelona.com/

http://www.odontocat.com/angles/catalonia.htm

I always keep a running piece of paper in my book as I read. I list each character alphabetically the best that I can and make short notations to keep me on track. As I read further into the book, I can refer to my listed names and say "oh yeah, that's the guy."

You think that Julian Carax is still alive. Good point because we know that someone is 'shadowing" Daniel.

My favorite character in this story is the garrulous, affable, optimist Fermin Romero de Torres, who Daniel met after he was beaten by the Maestro. Living in squalor, Fermin introduced himself as being “currently unemployed” (from international intrigue activities) waiting for his reputation to be restored after the war. The beggar was taken in to Daniel’s home, bathed, fed and given clean clothes. I love this sentence as he was speaking with Mr. Sempere “ As a child I felt the call of poetry and wanted to be a Sophocles or Virgil, because tragedy and dead languages give me the goose pimples.”

Are there men still alive that feel this way about the “arts", I wonder? 'The Sempere family now has a loyal friend.

I think there are men still alive who feel this way about poetry, music, "the arts." If we were to look for these lovers of art, I think they would be found in countries where there has been great suffering, suffering like Daniel's mother and father experienced in wartorn Barcelona. Poverty, early death, oppression seems to make some people cry out in song, prose, poetry,etc. I suppose it's a catharsis, a catharsis which miraculously speaks to others for long years to come.

I think this is what Daniel will do as a writer. He might write about the past his father keeps secret. "Before your mother died, she made me promise that I would never talk to you about the war, that I wouldn't let you remember any of what happened."

If Daniel gets a chance to own Victor Hugo's fountain pen, he will really become an enchanted writer. What a tool to own!

I love the character Fermin also. What a riot!! He's coarse and embarrassing to Daniel sometimes, but he's bright, educated, courageous, has a lot of common sense, and comes out with the funniest lines. I have just been laughing out loud!! Fermin and women! Too funny!

Marni

Calling all bird lovers, history buffs, biography lovers, and anyone who enjoys a moving story of love and family devotion. The book discussion of John James Audubon: The Making of an American by Richard Rhodes will begin Nov. 1. This beautiful edition is illustrated throughout and includes 16 pages of color reproductions from Audubon's masterpiece.

Sign up here: Audubon Sign-up

Marni

"...That afternoon, after closing the shop, my father suggested that we stroll along to the Els Quarte Gats, a cafe on Calle Montsio, where Barcelo and his BIBLIOPHILE KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND TABLE gathered to discuss the finer points of dcadent poets, dead languages, and neglected, moth-ridden masterpices..." (p.12)

I love that phrase: "bibliophile knights of the round table." I suppose we could be called bibliophile knights for in discussing this book we are not only keeping it alive, but keeping it safe.

"I hate to bring up the subject," Barcelo said, "but how can there be jobs? In this country nobody ever retires, not even after they're DEAD. Just look at El Cid. I tell you, we're a hopless case."(p.14)

"Latin, young man. There's no such thing as dead languages, only dormant minds. Paraphrasing, it means that you can't get something for nothing..." (p.15)

It was Zafon's words which made me fall in love with this novel even before I started to fall in love with his characters. His prose makes me think of Gabriel Garcia Marquez and his "One Hundred Years of Solitude."

Why does Daniel's father say books have no owners?

I think it is because books really don't have owners. We only borrow the books and what they say to us just as we don't own CATS or even nature itself. We are simply the caretakers until the next person comes along and wants to read a particular book.

Yes, we are only "caretakers." I also think Daniel's father said we can't own books because people become what they read. Our personal experiences are books in themselves. Books change us. We either become a mature growth or our growth is stunted. Still, we are changed by words in books.

I think of words as living entities which enter our bodies and live with us for awhile. Then, when we meet or talk to someone else, our words spread to another person. That's why books are like living organisms. It's like books are enchanted.

ALF, aka Andy, aka Andrea, has called me to say she is unable to access the Internet, therefore ahe can't get online to SeniorNet.

She has paid her monthly ISP bill, but the main computer of her Isp has been damaged by lightning. She said it may be a day or two before she will be back on SeniorNet.

Pat, thanks for passing that information on to all of us. I was just going to email ALF to let her know I'm still alive and haven't deserted. Had a wonderful time with my girls -- three fish to eat == but tons of fun, conversation, etc. I hated to say goodbye this morning, but the Cville kid will be up this weekend. California has flown home.

My DC son and DIL leave for Prague tomorrow and I'm still studying kthe lists, the menus, the directions and maps for all over the county.

Your posts are wonderful. I finally had a chance to print them out and read them and most of the time say, I agree I agree. Zaafon's flow of words is a splendid example of perfection. Something very magical about the way he "turns a phrase."

More tomorrow and finally back on schedule on Wednesday when the kids go back to school.

Maryal aka Deems is coming for coffee on Thursday. You all come too.

Good grief how spoiled I must be. Yesterday something happened to my internet provider's main frame and I was sans co puter for half of the day. When I called they said it might take a day or two but here I am early AM.

Thank you dearest Pat for passing on my message, she was going to tell you that I did not pay my bill (she is such a tease.) We all know that you can always count on Pat twhen the chips are down. I won't tell you that she's been out helping a neighbor drive a semi. Nope, my lips are sealed.

Welcome home Pedln. I hope that you enjoyed your girls and the fishing excursion. She is so lucky she will meet up today and lunch with our very own, special Maryal (Deems) today. Oh how I wish that i were in the DC area, I swear I'd walk across the beltway to meet for lunch with the girls. I believe Joan K and Joan P are supposed to join the group.
Anyway welcome home. I hope we get some others to join our discussion but if not-- well that's a shame because IMO this is the No. 1 book for me for this year. I loved it. I shall return after my ladies golf game this AM to answer scrawlerscomments. Keep the home fires burning.

Andy, I'm so glad you are back online. You have been fantastic and I think it's because of you that this discussion got off to such a great start. Last night I took the print out of all the posts to bed with me to reread, and fell asleep thinking about everyone's feelings about books, my own as well. At the very rustic (no phone, no TV) cabin my daughter's friend Liz came across an old (1960's) pictorial book about Nags Head, NC. Since all her family now lives there, she was estatic. "I wonder if I can get this for my folks?" Inside the cover it said" Merry Christmas Dennis and Bev (the cabin owners) from Momma and Poppa, 196?" We looked at it together that night and the next morning she was again deep into "Reflections of Nags Head." Another OLD OLD book was a thick, over a foot high, for sure, dictionary, broken spine, raggedy pages, but we used it heavily for the challenges during out nightly Scrabble games. I like to think that cabin had its own "Cemetery of Books."

And that makes me wonder, do we all have our own "Cemetaries of Books?" Those collections that someone else might give or throw away, but we don't want to part with? Do you like to examine other people's book shelves when you visit them for the first time? I like to see what we both might have read, what authors do they like, what kinds of books.

Marni, I was glad to see talk about the Villa of the Papyri. I had never heard of that restoration process either. Fascinating. It's really amazing. We think we've learned everything there is to learn about an ancient society and then some new process like this is opened up which brings about more knowledge.

I need to find an article -- in Friday's Washington Post there was an article about illuminated manuscripts now on display in the East Gallery/East Wing?, but I don't remember from which library or where -- Italy, I think and the letters (of the alphabet) -- gorgeous, dating back to the 1400's? What was interesting to me, also, was what the article said about the scarcity of books before the days of the printing press. Cambridge University Library, which now houses more than 100,000 books, had at the time, 122.

The parents are getting ready to leave. See you all tomorrow.

"...A motionless figure stood out in a patch of shadow on the cobbled street. The flickering amber glow of a cigarette was reflected in his eyes. He wore dark clothes, with one hand buried in the pocket of his jacket, the other holding the cigarette that wove a web of blue smoke around his profile. He observed me silently, his face obscured by the street lighting behind him. He remained there for almost a minute smoking nonchalantly, his eyes fixed on mine. Then, when the cathedral bells struck midnight, the figure gave a faint nod of the head, followed, I sensed, by a smile that I could not see. I wanted to return the greeting but was paralyzed. The figure turned, and I saw the man walking away with a a slight limp..." (p.37)

I don't know about you but I almost expected to see Orson Welles step out from the shadows as he did in "39 Steps."

"...I had read an identical description of that scene in "The Shadow of the Wind". In the story the protagonist would go out onto the balcony every night at midnight and discover that a stranger was watching him from the shadows, smoking nonchalantly. The stranger's face was always veiled by darkness, and only his eyes could be guessed at in the night, burning like hot coals. The stranger would remain there, his right hand buried in the pocket of his black jacket, and then he would go way, limping. In the scene I had just witnessed, that stranger could have been any person of the night, a figure with no face and no name. In Carax's novel, that figure was the devil." (p.38)

I thought these scenes illustrated an interesting plot twist. Does what we read influence our own life? Certainly, if what we are reading improves our way of life, then we would want to continue to read such books. But what if we read, like Daniel did, that the "devil" is standing on the street below our balcony and than we just happen to look down and see a stranger. What would we do then? Is it right to pre-judge someone we don't know just because we might think he could be the "devil"? Why do we read horror or fantasy books? Is it for the thrill of being scared out of wits or is there something more to it?

The man hiding in the shadows on the street made my skin crawl a bit. Poor Daniel being followed by somebody with evil motives.

I wanted to go back Fermin Romero. The quote given by Alf stuck with me. I went back and reread it."As a child I felt the call of poetry and wanted to be a Sophocles or a Virgil...."

Fermin loves the Humanities. Writing poetry is what he wanted to do with his life. Sadly, his father did not want him to follow that path. Obedient to his father he missed doing what made him passionate and happy and took another path.

Funny, yesterday I saw a local politician on tv. He told about his desire to write poetry as a young boy. He would write poems secretly in some hiding place. He said if his friends and family discovered his love for poetry they would have called him a sissy.

I thought about Fermin and this politician. Two men and probably many more men who never wrote poetry, danced or painted because of the thoughts of society.

Hats, what a terrific comparison. And how sad, that some young people were afraid to follow what their hearts wanted them to do, because they wouldn't "fit" in the culture.

Scrawler, your descriptions make me think of the movie The Third Man, probably because of Orson Wells, but also because it had that essence of shadows and secrets and men hiding in the dark.

I have over 60 posts to read, above, but just popping in to join everyone and say "holaaa"
Your Question: Could a special book which means as much ... be a special set of 6 books?

The Coleen McCullough books on ancient Rome and the life of Caesar were a spur to me, merely a 5,000 page spur. They have led me to read a couple of dozen other books, both non-fiction and fiction, on the history of ancient Rome.
And that is not even mentioning leading to Latin classes in SeniorNet, certainly of great significance to me.

I'm on a borrowed computer, as mine is not yet connected on-line with our new "wonderful" (haha) connection, so I'll catch up someday. It's good to be back with all of you!

Re: " I almost expected to see Orson Welles step out from the shadows as he did in "39 Steps."

I agree. It's kind of like a Hitchcock film. I've decided I'm feeling this is more like a detective novel than a fantasy or horror novel. It sort of reminds me of Walter Moseley's Easy Rawlins stories. They've been made into some good movies - like "Devil in a Blue Dress" starring Denzel Washington.

But, there are areas where it reminds me of a movie made from a comic book series - like Batman or Darkman starring Liam Neesen.

"...Do you have other books by Carax?" "I've had them at some point. Julian Carax is my specialty, Daniel. I travel the world in search of his books." "And what do you do with them if you don't read them?" The stranger made a stifled, desperate sound. It took me a while to realize that he was laughing. "The only thing that should be done with them, Daniel," he answered. He pulled a box of matches out of his pocket. He took one and struck it. The flame showed his face for the first time. My blood froze. He had no nose, lips, or eyelids. His face was nothing but a mask of black scarred skin, consumed by fire. It was the same dead skin that Clara had touched. "Burn them," he whispered, his voice and eyes poisoned by hate. A gust of air blew out the match he held in his fingers, and his face was once again hidden in darkness. 'We'll meet again, Daniel. I never forget a face, and I don't think you will either," he said calmly. "For your sake, and for the sake of your friend Clara, I hope you make the right decision. Sort this thing out with Mr. Neri - a rather pretentious name. I wouldn't trust him an inch." With that, the stranger turned around and walked off toward the docks, a shape melting into the shadows, cocooned in his hollow laughter." (p. 56)

Now this is the scene that reminded me of a horror movie. I almost expected the stranger to turn out to be Vincent Price in the "House of Wax." You have to admit that like Daniel this stranger makes your "blood freeze" or at the very least sends a chill up your spine.

I agree that this is a detective story. But this novel crosses so many different genres that it is hard to put your finger on just one. It is almost as if Zafon put them all in pot like the one the witches had in MacBeth and stirred them until they bubbled over into a novel.

I do like Fermin. After all that he has gone through, he still shows how human he is. While many of the other characters seem to hold their emotions inside themselves, he allows his humanity to show. So in a sense he is showing his poetic side of himself not in so many words, but in his actions and the fact that he befriends Daniel on his quest. And yes I think it is sad that society today for the most part looks down on young men writing or even reading poetry. I can't help but wonder where we would be without the William Carlos Williams, Wallace Stevens, Robert Frost, and Carl Sandburg[s] of the world if they hadn't been encouraged to read and write poetry.

Scrawler says, referring to the genres of Shadow, " It is almost as if Zafon put them all in pot like the one the witches had in MacBeth and stirred them until they bubbled over into a novel. " I love that. Yes, this book is many things.

You could almost say the say thing about the characters. What a mix of characters, and as Marni says, sometimes it's hard to keep up with all of them. But Ruiz Zafon makes them all come to life as many of them have stories of their own to tell.

Ginny, that was very surprising, what you said about the publishing company telling the Latin student -- that they always destroy past editions. It does seem a terrible waste -- one would think someone could use them. No doubt the company is always thinking about the bottom line and cost effectiveness, somethng we could dwell on forever. I always feel a little sad when I see a book that I've read and enjoyed on the remainder or mark down table. It doesn't mean it was a bad or useless book, just that in today's high-turnover-of-everything market it wasn't selling fast enough.

Marni, you bring up a very good point about the recyling of books. I agree with you -- it's not a bad thing to re-use or recycle. At Yellowstone Park this summer I saw a wonderful walkway made of plastic that was made of recycled paper and other materials. And it's true, we are mass producing books to the nth degree. I don't want to build a case for destroying books, but when one thinks of logistics, economics, and practicalities, sometimes it is necessary.

But in the case of Shadow and Carax's other books, there seems to be a feeling of evil about the systematic "killing" of his books. Why are his books being singled out? Who is doing this? And how does this person even know that Daniel has a copy of "Shadow of the Wind"? What do we know about Carax and the person who is seeking his books?

First of all, I again agree with Marni. I don't think he is dead.

He was born around the turn of the century?
His mother was French, and he uses her name.
His father's name is Fortuny, but there is some question about whether he is really the father. He has a hat shop.
He went to Paris with his mother when he was about 19 or 20. He wrote at least 8 novels, all published by Toni Cabestany, whose firm is now out of business
Lain Coubert, a character in "Shadow" was the name of the devil and a real-life Coubert wanted to buy all of Carax's books to burn them.
Carax returned to Barcelona from Paris in 1935, but Fortuny had told his landlady that he died in 1919.

Issac (the caretaker at Cemetery) does not have good things to say about Carax. Can we trust him?

Am I the only one who wonders about how Daniel selected this book?
Is it merely or more than a plot devise?
Is it "fate" or "fortuna" that says a book selects its reader?
Is it believable?

Please recall, friends, that I expressed my uneasiness with this book before we began the discussion. Our dear DL said "join" so here I am with my doubts! A whole bushel basket of doubts!

I wondered what made Daniel select this book too. Did he read the title on the spine? "Shadow of the Wind" makes me think of an adventure or mystery. I just can't understand why he chose that particular book.

-made Daniel opt for the Shadow of The Wind as he went through a "labyrinth" of passageways, crammed with books. His father told him that upon anyone's first visit, a book must be selected, adoted and kept alive.

It might have been that notion, or just chance, or its more flamboyant relative, destiny, but at that precise moment I knew I had already chosen the book I was going to adopt or that was going to adopt me. It stood out timidly on one corner of a shelf, bound in wine-colored leather. The gold letters of its title gleamed in the light bleeding frome the dome above."

He didn't care, his decision was made. Mippy haven't you ever had an experience like Daniels? Why does that make the story seem less credible to you? That's interesting as it made it more believable for me. The book chose him as well. Kismet, fate, destiny!!! Ahhh, the passion of a child in awe.

No, I don't think I ever have experienced anything like that!
Have you?

Oh my gosh, really?
You've never "felt" someone in particular was about to call? You've never "sensed" that you'd win or that a particular dress was calling you?

You know, I'm not a fan of magical realism. 100 Years of Solitude did nothing for me, while everyone else loved it. Somewhere, in my readings about Shadow, some reviewer or someone likened it to magical realism and my thought was "Oh, good grief, no. I can't stand magical realism. I don't like magic. I don't believe in it."

But you know, there's something about this book that has captured me. Somethng magical, if you will, that makes me want to keep reading and reading. There is somethng here, Mippy, that makes me give in to the words of this book. I believe it, it's credible, even tho it really may not be. Someone said earlier, the words suck you in. I like to think it's the skill of the author and the word pictures he creates.

Hi Pedln,

I think it's a magical book too. I love the plot about books. I also love the mystery. Who is this mysterious guy following Daniel? What happened to his face? Also, I want to know more about Carax.

I also do believe that you can have a sense about what you should buy, which friendship to develop or which book to read. It's a feeling that overcomes you. When I picked my cat, I knew she belonged to me and I belonged to her. I had looked at hundreds of cats. They didn't come close to going home with me. Boots?? she had that "magic" thing.

About Julian Carax, do we also know his father was very cruel to his mother, that his biological father was not Antonio Fortuny, that Julian Carax, as a little boy, showed magnificent talent????

pedln, HatsI didn't really find it magical. It's like I said to Mippy, it was more surreal to me. Magnetic! Yes, magnetic that's the word. Everyone seems to be pulled to one another with some eerie kind of influence, drawing of Daniel to the book, the magnetic attraction to Clara, to Fermin, etc. Yep, Kismet, not magic.

In order to answer that question, I think we have to ask ourselves why did Daniel's father take him to "The Cemetery of Forgotten Books?" If you remember, Daniel woke up from his sleep crying out that he could not remember his mother's face. Is there a connection between not remembering his mother's face and the book "The Shadow of the Wind?" Or could it be that Daniel's father simply wanted to distract Daniel from thinking of his mother.

I think when our subconscious comes to the fore front then sometimes we are drawn, like Daniel, to something even if we don't understand why we do such a thing. Since Zafon doesn't tell us why Daniel picked this particular book, we can only guess as to why this was done. But if you were thinking about not remembering your mother's face what book would appeal to you? If Daniel believed that his mother was in heaven, now this is only a guess, he could think of her as being "a shadow of the wind." Even if we had not had this discussion, wouldn't you have been drawn to a title like: "The Shadow of the Wind?"

To reply, I would love to be captured, but I'm not.
I do believe in mental telepathy, but I don't see that affects choosing a book!
I do believe in falling in love, but with a man, not with a book!
A dress never called out to me in my whole life! How does that feel?
Well, I remain the skeptical apple in the barrel ...

However, Daniel is a great boy, and I am enjoying following his experiences!

That's OK. I love skeptics and am one myself. WE are delighted to have your opinion and any thoughts that you have to share.

Funny on the "dress" calling you! I'm reading a new Kinsella, I love Sophie Kinsella, I discovered her with her new book The Undomestic Goddess which I loved, this is her first book Confessions of a Shopaholic which makes you laugh out loud, and if you want to know the definition of something "calling you" you need to read the frst 20 or so pages, she's got it BAD! Hahaha

FOUND my book! IS it full of notes made in Paris like I thought? No. It's full of strange crimps in the pages and scratchings from the woman sitting in the Tuileries trying frantically to make notes. Haahah It's something to keep. Definitely a keeper!

Have you noticed what the author does at the end of each chapter, how the chapters END? And when he does not do that, how they seque on into the next chapter?

I am fascinated by the techniques he's using.

End of chapter 8: My fingers trembled. I had arrived too late. I swallowed hard and opened the door.

Now who in their right mind would not read on? "I couldn't put it down," usually has more than one reason.

It's like those serial movies they used to show on Saturday. They would end with cliff hangers. Remember The Perils of Pauline? I never saw those on Saturdays, I think they were silent films and predated me, but there was a fey little poem about them:

Poor Pauline,
Pity Poor Pauline.
Dyanmited in a submarine
In the lion's cage she stands in fright
The lion gets ready to take a bite!
Zip! Goes the film, good night!

That's kind of what we have here.

And then note the chapter dates, changes and breaks, it's fascinating. He's obsessed with knowing who Julian IS, have we learned much about what's IN the book itself?

I'm rereading Chapter 15 to see if I can get straight Julian's background and history but how important is an author's background to YOU?

Do we care, for instance about Zafon? Is this Zafon's way of making us look at the author?

Check out the endings of these chapters and when they don't result in cliffhangers!!

Ah, what a group here. The credulous and the incredulous, the skeptics and the not. Well, whether magical or magnetic, there is something about this book that pulls you in, that makes you accept what it's saying.

Mippy, I'm glad you're enjoying following Daniel's experiences, and I'm very glad that you are here with us. One thing for sure you can say about Daniel, is that he is quite a precocious child and very mature in some ways. But I wonder as he moves toward adulthood, just how prepared he is. What do you think? He obviously has a lot of book knowledge, but I wonder how much his father has talked with him about being a man or what to expect. His father was not in favor of his intense relationship with Clara. But as we know -- "our conversations on the subject rarely went any further than an exchange of reproaches and wounded looks."

INteresting point, Scrawler. I wondered about that too, the timing of Daniel's visit to Cemetery of the Books. Offhand it looks like his father thought he needed distracting, but as has been mentioned before, this book demands a certain amount of credulity (?) from the reader.

Ginny, you found your book!! Wonderful! Isn't this cliffhanger technique similar to what was used in the Arabian Nights? (What's the full title of that?) You ask what we know about Carax. I listed some things earlier and Hats has added some more -- his father was very cruel to his mother, that his biological father was not Antonio Fortuny, that Julian Carax, as a little boy, showed magnificent talent. Perhaps we need that listed on a linked page. I'll ask one of our technical people if they would do that.

Ginny asks how important an author's background is to you. In works of fiction my answer would be -- it depends. I have never read an Anne Perry book, and probably never will -- because of the crime she committed as a teenager. Unforgiving and intolerant, it's just the way I feel. I read other books by people who have committed crimes. Probably knowing a bit about a new author might prompt me to read his or her book. If I really like an author, his or her background isn't important, though knowing about it may enhance the reading of the book.

Ruiz Zafon parallels Carax in that he left his native country and went abroad before he began writing. Perhaps distance provides a new way to look at our early background.

"The only use for military service is that it reveals the number of morons in the population," he (Fermin) would remark. "And that can be discovered in the first two week; there's no need for two years. Army, Marriage, the Church, and Banking: the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Yes, go on, laugh." (p. 98)

Did you laugh at this statement? I know I had a good chuckle, and yet there seems to be something more to this statement. I can understand why Fermin would feel about "army, marriage, and the church." But why banking?

"Before I could answer, a whole hardback set of the complete works of Blasco Ibanez plummeted from on high, and the place shook with a ballistic roar..." (p.99)

Some of Zafon's wit can be subtle. In the first paragraph above Fermin mentions the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and then on the very next page he knocks over a set of novels by Vicente Blasco Ibanez, whose best known book is the: "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse."

To repeat the p. 98 quote (so we don't have to scroll back)
"The only use for military service is that it reveals the number of
morons in the population," Fermin ... remarked, "and that can be
discovered in the first two week; there's no need for two years."

No I do not agree. Barcelona might seem like a far cry from Israel.
Without the Israeli armed forces, and their intelligence services, there would be no State of Israel today.

To take an example closer to home, what if the U.S. had not already trained its armed forces when Japan bombarded Pearl Harbor? Would the U.S. have said "bye, bye" to Hawaii? then California?

Of course a country needs soldiers!

Ginny,

To me, an author's life story is very important. When I read a book, I find myself looking more than once at the back flap. I look at the author's photograph. I read about the short bio about the author's life. I especially like to know if a author has children and pets. I also like to know where the author lives.

I have read Nicholas Sparks nonfiction book titled "Three Weeks with My Brother." It was so exciting to learn about this man's life. He writes such sentimental, thoughtful, loving novels. I wanted to know what made him tick.

Pedln, when I read about Anne Perry's past life of crime, it made me more interested in her mysteries. I love hearing Toni Morrison tell about writing with her children surrounding her. Sometimes her children's orange juice would spill on her writing draft. I like knowing about Edgar Allan's poe's writing and struggle with alcoholism and Kaye Gibbons struggles with mental illness, I find fascinating.

In this discussion I find myself rereading the two links in the heading about Ruiz Zafon. What I can learn about him, I feel, can only deepen my reading experience of Shadow of the Wind.

Oh that Fermin. What a rogue he is, and the things he says. Most of the things he says make me laugh, but I think that Daniel and his father take his remarks with a grain of salt. HOpe so, anyway. Of course a country needs soldiers. Sometimes I think Fermin says what he says, like his comments about the military, just to get a rise out people. And he also wants to get them talking. He's one of the most interesting characters in the book. That was a very interesting connection you made, Scrawler, about the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I missed it, for sure.

Hats, you build a very strong case for knowing about an author's background, and I'm glad you are referring to the links in the heading about Ruiz Zafon. I do think the things he says about this particular book will certainly help the reader, such as the quote below:

"I hope this is reading for those who love, really love, to read. I drew on the Dickensian model of creating a complex world populated by intriguing places, peculiar creatures, and infinite details at work."

That first sentence surely refers to all of us. What about the second? Are you reminded as you read, about Dickens, as well as other treasures from the 19th century?

Back later. My DIL said to wake the two youngest at 10 am this Sat. morning and I've already given them an extra hour. It's time to get tough.

Last week the Washington Post carried an article about 15th century Italian illuminated manuscripts now being exhibited at the National Gallery of Art. My first thoughts on reading this were about The Cemetery of the Books and the libraries that Marni spoke of earlier in the discussion. How valuable books were when they were totally created by hand, on paper or papyrus.

"Painting in books was a major art form in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. The artistic achievements of Italian manuscript illuminators from six regions in Italy from the 12th to the 16th centuries are explored through more than forty-five exquisite volumes, individual leaves, and miniatures from the J. Paul Getty Museum, as well as a select number of related medals and panel paintings from the Gallery’s own collection, a seven-minute video on the complex process of creating a manuscript, and listening stations of recorded Gregorian chants that appear in two of the choir books on display." (from the National Gallery of Art)

Washington Post

Exhibition Pictures of Manuscripts

The Exhibition website is amazing -- use the plus and minus signs to zero in on the detail. Then think of the monk who created it all -- to be the first LETTER on the page of book.

Pedin: How fantastic! Thanks for the 2 sites. Those pictures of the letters are so incredibly beautiful and intricate. I wish I could see the exhibit. Imagine the talent within the walls of monasteries! This reminds me of the Ecco The Name of the Rose again and the monks creating and copying books and then the burning of the monastery library.

"The Fortuny Hat Shop, or what was left of it, languished at the foot of a narrow, miserable-looking blackened by soot on Ronda de San Antonio next to Plaza de Goya. One could still read the letters engraved on the filthy window, and a sign in the shape of a bowler hat still hung above the shop front, promising designs made to measure and the latest novelties from Paris. The door was secured with a padlock that had seen at least a decade of undisturbed service. I pressed my forehead against the glass pane, trying to peek into the murky interior." (p. 112)

"The woman who was speaking to me must have been about sixty and wore the national costume of all pious widows. A couple of rollers stuck out under the pink scarf that covered her hair, and her padded slippers matched her flesh-colored knee-highs..." (p.112)

I love Zafon's descriptions. In the first paragraph he sets the mood for the rest of "the city of shadows" which spands several chapters. To me the phrase "the city of shadows" reminds me of souls or ghosts that can't move on to the next life and remain wandering aimlessly throughout the city. Sometimes when I go into a dark room and there is a draft I suddenly feel a chill go up my spine. "The city of shadows" reminds me of that feeling.

The paragraph describing the woman gives us the time period of the novel. I remember as a little girl in the 1950s going to the grocery store and seeing women with large jumbo hair curlers in their hair under pink scarfs. And I think it was the 1950s that knee-highs first became popular. This is very short paragraph, but it makes the old woman seem very real.

It also seems to be a city of ashes. There's a lot of ash and gray imagery. I guess that fits in with the book burning. I suppose it fits in with the war background, too.

I agree, Scrawler, I love the descriptions in these chapters particularly, he's a very fine writer!

Yikes! Sorry, Everybody, I did read everybody's posts, I don't know how I missed that information! You are too kind, Pedln! (I hate for people to do that to me! Hahaha) Something told me when I pushed away from the desk, "you've made a mistaaaake, " but it wouldn't say WHAT! Hahahaah

I'm rereading Chapter 15 now, in the section City of Shadows and the old Caretaker really gives quite a picture of young Julian and his father as well.

There's all kinds of foreshadowing including the caretaker looking at Daniel and saying on page 117 in my book, "you're a devil." Lots of eerie stuff. I am finding it somewhat incongruous that nobody has cleaned out all of these places, the apartment which smells like a dead rat, that's suggestive, no? The door which gave way like a tombstone, all sorts of similes here. Layers, as you've all said of ashes, more than on the floor of a henhouse (that's a LOT, take it from me), and the sister only Julian could see, and the locked DOOR!

This is good to read at Halloween!

And so he opens the music box and gets a gold key (too convenient?) and behold it fits the door, curiouser and curioser!

I've got a new computer game, it's Sherlock Holmes in this spooky old mansion, it's some old guy who died and left an Egyptian museum, and unfortunately I can't get old Sherlock past the opening floor! DUH! But the graphics are very much like is described here, and very fantastic. I think Sherlock is tired of me, he keeps saying "I'll do that later!" ahahaha

"Open up if you must." And another cliff hanger.

I love that question number 8 too. At this point who is the book most about, that's a super question! I almost want to say Julian?? I mean he certainly seems the focal point to me, I need to think about that one, he's certainly an obsession and we're finding out so much stuff!

It certainly keeps you reading, just rereading Chapter 15 has sucked me in again, the beaten wife, the possibility Julian was not Mr. Fortuny's actual child, the missing rumored sister that only Julian can see. The creaky doors, the atmosphere, love it.

This is not particularly Spanish yet, is it?

Or is it?

Maybe too many clues left around? Atmospheric? You bet! Cliffhanger? You bet!

Can't wait till tomorrow when we open that door! It's like an old fashioned radio show.

Oh golly aren't those just gorgeous illuminated manuscripts! Of course what John Paul Getty could afford is beyond the reach of mortal man, oh golly, but do you all know about Philip Pirages (pronounced like Courageous?) I have a small collection of Illuminated manuscripts myself, very small, very humble and he sells them. I'll run get his website, thank you so much Pedln for putting that in here, I want to savor each, they are very fine!

Hold on!

Thank you Pedln and Marni for the links. Marni, I would love to see the exhibit too. Pedln, the letters are so richly colored. I am going to reread the article and look at the writings again. The writings are magnificently beautiful.

I went back and looked at the links about Barcelona again too.

Scrawler, I am enjoying your posts so much. Now I have a better meaning of "The City of Shadows."

Marni, thanks for bringing about the point about the color of gray.

Hi Ginny,

We were writing at the same time!

Here you go, feast your eyes on what you, too, could own going back to the 11th century, to die for: Pirages.com

I'll scan in one of mine, I keep them shut away, so it will be nice to share them, nobody knows I have them.

You ought to read, if you're interested in Illuminated Manuscripts, Christopher De Hamel of the British Museum, he's written some super books, like Scribes and Illuminators, which tell you succinctly and with humor all you want to know. It's not an "illuminated" manuscript unless it glows with gold, did you know that? And the gold never dulls. De Hamel says, "Strictly speaking an 'illuminated manuscript' contains gold or silver which reflects the light. A manuscript with much decoration but in colours without actually having gold or silver, is, technically, not illuminated." Interesting, huh?

There were two ways of applying real gold to them, it's fascinating!

De Hamel says,

Only a finite number of texts have ever been written...

Thomas Hoving told me the same thing when we met with him at the Cloisters for our first ever Book Gathering, he said there is no possibility of forgery, they are all "known."

Interesting!

De Hamel says,

Gold cannot tarnish. The burnished gold in manuscripts sparkles as new after five hundred or a thousand years." (Scribes and Illuminators)

I have not bought any now for a couple of years, primarily because my taste has overcome my pocket but I still love them. I'll scan one in here that you might like to see.

Hats! Were we? I'll rush back and read your own post, I love them!

I have just put "Scribes and Illuminators" on hold at my library. I can't wait to go and pick it up. Those facts about the gold on the pages is very, very interesting.

Ginny, I can't wait for you to scan the pages. I would enjoy looking at the pages.

Thank you for sharing these facts.

Scrawler, aren't the author's descriptions something. I've been doing most of my reading here at night, in bed, sans pen or pencil, but am going to have to reread at the kitchen table and mark those prizes. Ruiz Zafon is not always very complimentary, either, is he.

Fascinating site, Ginny, and I want to browse there more. I came across one book listing for $45,000. Well, no wonder, if it has to glow with gold. You said earlier that we'll always need books. Of course, and I agree totally there. But isn't is wonderful that we now have to Internet to be an adjunct library that can show us even more about books.

Marni, good connection between "city of ashes" and gray and the book burning.

Re: Sherlock Holmes game -- would that be good for kids? Is it on a cd-rom?

Good Morning. Here we are ready to start our second week ( I think I'm a little off there). But anyway, Daniel is going full steam ahead in his investigation of Julian Carax. An in the process, we're seeing some similarities between him and Julian. Daniel's been told he looks like the young Julian, and like Julian, he's in love.

Did you get a new perspective on Julian? Or Daniel? I guess I was thinking of them as rather serious introspective persons, but now they both appear more outgoing, especially Julian, and with a tendency to spout bull -- not to the extent of Fermin -- but their humor is showing.

And the stories told by others -- Mr. Molinas, Father Fernando. Lots to talk about and pick on here. Thanks to Marjorie for putting a link to a "what we already know" page in the heading. This lists what we know about Julian Carax and we can keeping adding to it.

Some time ago Marni talked about all the characters and some of the difficulties in keeping them straight. I agree, an am tempted to attempt some sort of sociogram, if you will. Daniel in the middle and lines connecting all those characters that connect to one another. We are seeing lots of links between characters there, creating lots of questions.

I've family here the rest of the day and evening (currently two runners and three sleepers), but will be back tomorrow am looking forward to reading all your posts.

Good morning,

I love this book. I am rereading the pages with a pen in hand . Pedln and Scrawler I am loving the characters too. As I reread the pages, Ruiz Zafon is telling so much about Carax and Daniel. At the same time, there is so much I don't know. I have so many questions.

I think there is a question in the heading about mothers. I am trying to focus on mothers in the book. I looked again at Clara's mother. I think Clara's mother is a survivor. Here she is with a blind daughter and she is the wife of a POW. Clara's father and her mother's husband never returns. Her mother continues to fight to raise her daughter until she dies of a heart disease. Maybe she died of a broken heart??

I see so much loss, loneliness and sorrow in "Shadow of the Wind.:" It is my impression that what saves the people in these pages are books proving that books are not dead but living and able to change lives.

I have so many questions. I don't know a thing about the Spanish Civil War. I also noticed that Daniel was taught by the Jesuits. I might have missed it in pass posts. Could someone tell a little about the Jesuits?

I think Pedln mentioned the word "magical." I have noticed Mr. Zafon's usage of words: "sorcery of light," "supernatural power," and "enchantment."

"A breath of cold air whistled through the hole in the lock, licking at my fingers while I inserted the key. The lock that Mr. Fortuny had fitted in the door of his son's unoccupied room was three times the size of the one on the front door...

...An impenetrable well of darkness opened up before us. The meager light from behind crept ahead, barely able to scratch at the shadows. The window overlooking the yard was covered with pages of yellowed newspaper. I tore them off, and a needle of hazy light bored through the darkness.

The room was infested with CRUCIFIXES. They hung from the ceiling, dangling from the ends of strings, and they covered the walls, hooked on nails. There were dozens of them. You could sense them in every corner, carved with a knife on the wooden furniture, scratched on the floor tiles, painted red on the mirrors..." (p.121)

Wow! I think someone here said this was a good book to read now since Halloween was just around the corner and I would have to agree. This chapter reminded me of an old black and white 1930 -1940 movie where the hero goes into a locked door. Can't you hear that eerie music. Part of you wants to scream, "Dont' go in!" But than part of you says yeah what's behind door #1, but you go first.

The first question I had about this situation was why was the lock three times the size as the lock on the front door. Yes, I think it was convient to find the key in the music box, but let's face it, it had to be some place.

"...and a needle of hazy light bored through the darkness." I loved this phrase. But never in a hundred years would I have dreamed of what this creepy, old room was hiding.

"The room was INFESTED with crucifixes." The word INFESTED is not what I would associate with crucifixes. And the way Zafron describes them, it almost seems supernatural or even magical. Makes me want to ask why, but first I'm making a hasty retreat from this room. How would you react if you walked into a room like this?

"Barcelona is the capital city of Catalonia, one of the autonomous communities of Spain, in northeastern Iberian Peninsula. It is located in the comarca of Barcelonès, along the Mediterranean coast (41° 23′ N, 2° 11′ E) between the mouths of the rivers Llobregat and Besòs. It is 160 km (100 mi) south of the Pyrenees mountain range. The population of the city proper is 1,583,256 (est. 2003), while the population of the urban area is 4,042,000 (est. 2000).

Legend attributes the Carthaginian foundation of Barcino to Hamilcar Barca, father of Hannibal. About 15 BC, Romans redrew the town as a castrum (a Roman military camp) centred on the "Mons Taber", a little hill nearby the contemporary city hall (Plaça de Sant Jaume). The Roman Colonia Julia Augusta Faventia Paterna Barcino was outshone by the province's capital Tarragona but some important Roman remains are exposed under the Plaça del Rei, entrance by the city museum, Museu d'Història de la Ciutat and the typically Roman grid-planning is still visible today on the map of the historical centre, the Barri Gótic ("[Visi]Gothic Quarter"). Some remaining fragments of the Roman walls have been incorporated in the cathedral butted up against them [1]; the basilica La Seu is credited to have been founded in 343. The city was conquered by the Visigoths in the early 5th century, by the Moors in the early 8th century, reconquered from the emir in 801 by Charlemagne's son Louis who made Barcelona the seat of Carolingian "Spanish Marches" (Marca Hispanica), a buffer zone ruled by the Count of Barcelona. Barcelona was still a Christian frontier territory when it was sacked by Al-Mansur in 985.

The counts of Barcelona became increasingly independent and expanded their territory to include all of Catalonia, later formed the Crown of Aragon who conquered many overseas possessions, ruling the western Mediterranean Sea with outlying territories as far as to Athens in the 13th century. The forging of a dynastic link between the Crown of Aragon and Castile marked the beginning of Barcelona's decline. This legacy exists to this day as evidenced by the fact that the city (and Catalonia as a whole) still has a substantial proportion of people whose first language is Castilian.

The city was devastated after the Catalonian Republic of 1640 - 1652, and again during the War of the Spanish Succession in 1714. King Philip V of Spain demolished half of the merchants' quarter (La Ribera) to build a military citadel as a way of both punishing and controlling the rebel city.

During the 19th century, Barcelona grew with the industrial revolution and the introduction of many new industries. During a period of weaker control by the Madrid authorities, the medieval walls were torn down and the citadel of La Ribera was converted into an urban park: the modern Parc de la Ciutadella, site of the 1888 "Universal Exposition" (World's Fair). The exposition also left behind the Arc de Triomf and the Museu de Zoologia (a building originally used during the fair as a cafe-restaurant). The fields that had surrounded the artificially constricted city became the Eixample ("extension"), a bustling modern city surrounding the old.

The beginning of the 20th century marked Barcelona's resurgence as Catalanias clamoured for political autonomy and greater freedom of cultural expression.

Barcelona was a stronghold for the anarchist cause, siding with the Republic's democratically elected government during the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). It was overrun by Francisco Franco's forces in 1939, which ushered in a reign of cultural and political repression that lasted decades. The protest movement of the 1970s and the demise of the dictatorship turned Barcelona into a centre of cultural vitality, enabling it to become the thriving city it is today....

The city has been the focus of the revival of the Catalan language. Despite massive immigration of Castilian speakers from other parts of Spain in the second half of the 20th century, there has been notable success in the increased use of Catalan in everyday life."

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona

"The early years of the 20th century saw social unrest as the tension increased between the rich industrial barons and the working class. Anarchists from France came to Barcelona and gained a very strong following and sadly Barcelona became known as the city of terrorist bombs. There were general strikes in 1901 and 1902, and in 1909 Barcelona saw riots that lasted a week and extensive destruction, including the razing of 70 buildings belonging to religious orders that were systematically burned by the anarchists. The leader of the movement, Francesc Ferrer, was later executed. But not all was strife and conflict. These were the years of Modernism and very strong cultural currents were at work in Barcelona.

In the 1931 general elections the left wing coalition won and forcibly exiled King Alfonso XIII, who never abdicated. This was the beginning of the second republic and it allowed for great strides in Catalan aspirations. The socialist leader Francesc Macià returned from exile in Paris and became the president of Catalonia’s Generalitat. Macià’s ambitious plans for the city were cut short by the military insurrection of 1936. The Spanish Civil War was the beginning of one of Spain’s darkest periods and the Catalan national identity was totally repressed. Not until Franco’s death and the new Spanish constitution of 1977 did Catalonia regain a measure of self government with the Estatut de Autonomia. The Franco years were disastrous for Barcelona as a city. The massive migrations of the 50’s and 60’s from the impoverished south of Spain to Barcelona created tremendous urban planning problems that are evident to this day. The uncontrolled construction boom resulted in the creation of a densely populated and poorly serviced outer ring that became home to the hundreds of thousands of workers that came to live in Barcelona during the economic surge of the 1960’s. That Barcelona has recovered a leading role in the world as an artistic, intellectual and business city in this short period of time is an endorsement of the energy and creative spirit of the city’s inhabitants."

http://www.seebarcelona.com/hist.htm#decline

http://www.barcelona-on-line.es/eng/turisme/historia.htm

Info about the Spanish Civil War:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Spanish-Civil-War.htm

Click on the red arrow to continue the tour. Some beautiful photos.

http://www.virtourist.com/europe/barcelona/Barcelona_Photos.htm

Marni,

I am glad to see those links. Thank you.

Scrawler, I am glad you mentioned the room filled with Crucifixes. Usually, a room filled with Crucifixes would make me think of a chapel, sanctuary or a prayer room. This room gave me a feeling of discomfort. I didn't notice the word "infested" either. What a word to use.

This room, although filled with Crucifixes, made me think of the guy in the pages of the "Shadow of the Wind." The guy who seemed to have stepped out of the pages of the book and now stood in the dark on corners. The guy Carax called "The devil."

It gives me goose pimples writing The devil and Crucifixes in the same sentence. To make my story short, I did not like that room at all.

I did see some religious descriptions in the novel. These made me feel more at ease. These terms were "celestial vision," and "liquid heaven." That magical feeling came over me again as I read these descriptions.

Marni,

I am going to study and read the links. Can't wait.

Marni, wonderful background and that helps a LOT, it IS beginning to seem more Spanish, to me, in this section.

Hats, here are two of them, you could not see the gold shining in the light of the scanner so I laid it down in what sunlight we had today and it looked liquid, it's hard to get that in a photo but have tried. Thank you for expressing interest.

Hahaah Pedln, he has whole books, but I have only leaves.

Scrawler, you are so right, you want to scream "Don't go!!" Why DID they go? I never understood that. Two girls alone in the house, noise down stairs or one girl, girl takes a candle, unlocks the door and goes out to see what it is? WHY?

Never could understand that. Scariest thing I ever saw was one on TV in the early days of TV, scared me to death, two girls, dark, old spooky house, one goes downstairs of course with candle when she hears something, sister begs her not to go, don't leave me alone here, etc., wind blows candle out, the one left in the bedroom hears footsteps approaching, is it her sister? Footsteps come in she reaches up and of course sister has been beheaded and that's the trunk standing there, scared me to DEATH I can still see it.

Not for me. If there's a noise, call the police, shoot a gun for heaven's sake don't go out with your candle.

And here we are in the same thing! Good point Scrawler on the "infestation," good picking that usage up.

Hats, you will love that book, you'll love De Hamel's humor, ok here are two:

The first one here is a French Book of Hours, a leaf from 1415, I've turned it so the sun hits it so you can see the globs of gold leaf on the thing, it shines…well…like gold, very striking, even the decorations to the left are all gold, very pretty.

Then here are two (this is actually one but showing both sides), these have turned out to be quite valuable, actually, from a German Book of Hours, ("Splendid German Book of Hours and Psalter in Latin) Regensburg, 1524, large page, about the size of a normal book page, which is big for them:

I have some from the 1100's too. The gold background here is shimmering brushed gold ground," different from the letters above but when angled into the sun, quite glowing.

So back they now go, back into the dark, just like the hidden house of Julian Carax, hidden away also..

I just read in the heading that Mr. Zafon went to a Jesuit school.

Ginny, thank you!! Oh, they are beautiful!! Those are treasures.

My son went to Boston College, which is a Jesuit school. Jesuits are known for the intellectualism. We are Protestant, not Catholic, but that doesn't matter at BC. They don't push their religion onto non-Catholic students.

Here's info about the Jesuits:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm

Marni,

Thanks for highlighting some of the facts. The part about repression in Barcelona is really interesting. This is what part of what you highlighted.

"Barcelona was a stronghold for the anarchist cause, siding with the Republic's democratically elected government during the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). It was overrun by Francisco Franco's forces in 1939, which ushered in a reign of cultural and political repression that lasted decades. The protest movement of the 1970s and the demise of the dictatorship turned Barcelona into a centre of cultural vitality, enabling it to become the thriving city it is today.... "

I never knew about repression and Spain. I always think of the Cultural Revolution in China. I bet during this time in Spain many books and pieces of art were destroyed. Correct me I'am wrong.

Ginny: Those ARE gorgeous treasures! Wow!

"Available information suggests that there were about 500,000 deaths from all causes during the Spanish Civil War. An estimated 200,000 died from combat-related causes. Of these, 110,000 fought for the Republicans and 90,000 for the Nationalists. This implies that 10 per cent of all soldiers who fought in the war were killed.

It has been calculated that the Nationalist Army executed 75,000 people in the war whereas the Republican Army accounted for 55,000. These deaths takes into account the murders of members of rival political groups.

It is estimated that about 5,300 foreign soldiers died while fighting for the Nationalists (4,000 Italians, 300 Germans, 1,000 others). The International Brigades also suffered heavy losses during the war. Approximately 4,900 soldiers died fighting for the Republicans (2,000 Germans, 1,000 French, 900 Americans, 500 British and 500 others).

Around 10,000 Spanish people were killed in bombing raids. The vast majority of these were victims of the German Condor Legion.

The economic blockade of Republican controlled areas caused malnutrition in the civilian population. It is believed that this caused the deaths of around 25,000 people. All told, about 3.3 per cent of the Spanish population died during the war with another 7.5 per cent being injured.

After the war it is believed that the government of General Francisco Franco arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners. It is estimated that another 35,000 Republicans died in concentration camps in the years that followed the war."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWspain.htm

Marni,

These are amazing facts! I am going to keep these tragic statistics in mind while reading "The Shadow of the Wind."

Ginny,

I am still enjoying the pages you scanned. They are sooo beautiful. Thank you again for sharing the pages.

Well my goodness, thank you Hats and marni, bless your hearts! If you all are going to be that enthusiastic I'll show one more, so I won't take up more than one day for this, but I've got several really fantastic ones but this one's kind of unusual, and very fine: it's huge, for one thing, it's an Italian Gradual from 1490 and it's huge, it's the size of a piece of poster paper, decorated on both sides, with gorgeous letters, how they could carry this and sing I have no idea but it's gorgeous.

It's got all kinds of initials and gold everywhere, here's a photo of the letter A on the other side, catching the light of the setting sun,

I know this is not in focus but thought you could see it glowing. These large illuminated letters are huge, they are easily 3" by 2 ½ and shine like beacons. The parchment is a beautiful thing and you can definitely tell which is the hide side of the parchment and which is not, it's very fine. I'm glad to show it or part of it to somebody who would like to see it, normally it's got more wrappings than a mummy, in fact I thought of the house of Julian Carax's father when I was opening it, layer after layer, bringing it back into the sun after all these years.

Italian Gradual: 1490: Click to Enlarge, you will be surprised at the glorious detail.

Oh my goodness, what fantastic work! I can definitely see the shine of the gold. I would have never imagined the size. The illuminated letters are so large. Beautiful!

Ginny: Did you say where you got these beautiful things? Is collecting them a big hobby of yours? How interesting and stunning!

I just saw a very interesting documentary on the Discovery/Times Channel. It was about an investigation into Christopher Columbus' background, which he kept secret. History says Columbus was the son of a poor Genoese weaver and he didn't go to sea until he was in his 20's. Some have theorized that Columbus came from a wealthy Catalan merchant's family (named Colom) from Barcelona and that he had to have been educated at an early age. Others have theorized that he was a Barcelona Jew escaping the Spanish Inquisition that was burning alive Jews in Barcelona at that time. Some have suggested Columbus was tryig to hide that he was illegitimate.

The Spanish government and a Columbus descendent gave permission for scientists to subject Columbus' bone remains to special DNA testing, testing developed after 9/11 to help determine identities of the dead. Bones of Columbus' brother, Diego, and Columbus' son, Hernando, also underwent DNA testing. Also, Columbus' writing underwent testing by handwriting experts and linguistic experts.

The results show that there are definite Central Catalonian (Barcelona is here) influences in Columbus' handwriting. (He never wrote in Italian, always in Spanish.) DNA results of his son's Y chromosome (inherited from the father) show he most probably was not Jewish. DNA results of Columbus' bones were inconclusive.

Apparently, if Columbus had been Catalan, he would have been considered an enemy at that time of the Spanish kingdom ruled by Ferdinand and Isabella (Castile and Aragon) who were backing Columbus' expeditions. Really interesting program!

Ginny, thanks so much for sharing those leaves(?) pages(?) with us. They're absolutely gorgeous. And what detail. One could spend all day just looking at one small area after another. And you can't help but think of a monk, hunched over a plank table, working by candle light. Would they have made sketches first -- paper and parchment we precious commodities. I can't imagine them wasting any.

Marni, thank you for the background and links on Barcelona and the Spanish Civil WAr. I was very hazy on the Civil War, and am a little less so now, but it is still difficult to understand who was fighting who and why. I loved the pictures from the links, fascinating to see so many Gaudi buildings. One of the articles I read on Ruiz Zafon said that he grew up in the shadow of Gaudi's Sagrada Familia Cathedral, and was a fan of Gaudi architecture.

Hats and Scrawler, you both have a gift for picking up on key words -- "sorcery of light" and "a needle of hazy light." And "liquid heaven." Thank you for alerting us to them. "Infested with crucifixes" -- make you think of something ugly, doesn't it. Something you want to get rid of. Like last night when we came home from dinner with the other grandma and found the kitchen "infested" with ants.

So, are you finding things perhaps a tad convenient, as some have said? The key in the right place, the Carax notebooks, the letter? But it's all okay because these clues are leading us somewhere. What is it about Daniel, a mere 19-year-old, that makes people open doors to him, and tell him the story of their lives or the lives of others? He seems to have a way with women, for sure. Even the old caretaker, Dona Aurora, is taken with this young man --"you're a devil," she says. Playfully?

Somewhere, don't ask me where or to be exact, I read a quote along the lines of "the books that we write reflect the books we've read." And somewhere, Ruiz Zafon said he wanted to write a book reminescent of 19th century novels, but in a modern vein. As we read, are you reminded of other books or other authors. I find this book so rich in detail, especially of other characters, who may or may not become important, and I'm thnking "who else does this? someone does, but who.? I'm reminded sometimes of John Irving, with his bizarre characters, and in the next breath, of some hard-boiled detective as Zafon has Daniel saying, "his suit wouldn't have fetched more than ten pesetas in the Encates Flea Market." Who are you reminded of?

The one thing I remember people talking about concerning Franco and the Spanish Civil War was that Hitler supported his reign of terror and sent him weapons and provided instruction in torture. As I understand it Hitler was testing his weapons and methods that the Nazis would than take to an even higher levelin World War II.

"...The 1930s represented a period of political upheaval that directly affected Picasso and is expressed in his work and in critical response to it Picasso's last trip to Spain was made in 1934, just two years prior to to the outbreak of civil war in his native country, to which he would never return in person, although he did so often in his work. A renewed interest in Spanish types, such as bullfighters and Spanish majas, often combined with mythological minotaurs occurs in his paintings, prints and drawings. The minotaur, the figure created by a juxtaposition of the head of a bull (without human reason) and the body of a man (with all of man's physical desires) was also a favourite image among the Surrealists...

When Picasso painted Guernica for the Spanish pavilion at the Paris International Exhibition of 1937, it was from his Spanish heritage that he drew his inspiration. In fact, his 1934 visit to Barcelona had included inspection of Catalan romanesqaue frescoes, and there should also be conspired in connection with Guernica for the power of their flat expressive design." ~ "A Picasso Anthology"

You might wonder why I included this in our discussion, but Picasso shows through his art what Barcelona meant to him and how Franco almost devoured the people of Spain much like the bull in Picasso's painting devours the people. There is a legend that when Nazi officers saw this painting they didn't understand it. Some wanted to arrest Picasso, but he was now so famous that they were afraid it would bring them unnecessary attention, so although he was warned several times, he was never arrested.

Carlos Ruz Zafon, like Picasso, shows with words his feeling under the reign of Franco. His character Chief Inspector Francisco Javier Fumero is a prime example of how he shows us what it was like to live under Franco's rule.

"The reason for my visit, which is a courtesy call, is to warn you. It has come to my attention that you're doing business with undesirable characters, in particular inverts and criminals." I started at him in astonishment. "Excuse me?" The man fixed me with his eyes. "I'm talking about pansies and thieves. Don't tell me you don't know what I'm talking about." "I'm afraid I haven't the faintest idea, nor am I remotely interested in listening to you any longer..." (p.136)

"Still, this pansy isn't what brought me here today. Sooner or later he'll end up in the police station, like all the rest of his persuasion, and I'll make sure he's given a lesson. What worries me is that, according to my information, you're employing a common thief, an undesirable individual of the worst sort." "I don't know who you're talking about, Inspector." Fumero gave his servile, sticky giggle. "God only knows what name he's using now...you know whom I'm referring to, don't you?" "No." Fumero laughed again,that forced, affected laugh that seemed to sum him up like the blurb on a book jacket. "You like to make things difficult, don't you? Look, I've come here as a friend, to warn you that whoever takes on someone as undesirable as this ends up with his fingers scorched, and you're treating me like a liar." (p.136)

Of course we find out that Fumero is referring to Fermin, but I found it very telling the way Zafon describe's Fumero's laugh. In the previous post I wrote about a magical or supernatural terror. Fumero's character is a very REAL terror.

Fumero is such a creepy hideous character. He reminds me of many an evil cop or detective I've seen in dark movies. And his "servile, sticky giggle." This giggle surprised me. It made him seem even creepier, as though there was even sort of an eery effeminate side of the evil Fumero. When I read that, I thought of Peter Lorre in an old Alfred Hitchcock movie.

His name "Fumero"....This reminds me of smoke. Fumes. Don't you think his name fits in with the images of ash and greyness that fill the city? Does anyone know if it means anything like this in Spanish?

And poor Fermin and his experiences with Fumero. Fermin is terrified of him. With cause. The terrible torture by burning he endured, the scars on his body, the fits that came over him.

Fermin was burned. Fire, burning, and smoke fit in with images of ash and greyness we are seeing.

Marni

For some reason,I can't remember a name of an author who writes like Mr. Zafon. Perhaps, it's because his writing, while I am reading it, has bewitched me and I can't think clearly. I love the words he uses. His descriptions make me read lines over and over again.

Just the description of The Cemetery of Forgotten Books leaves me in awe. I have tried to picture it. The word "Cemetery" made me think the rooms must look dreary and ugly. But the description, I think, is very beautiful. There is a glass dome too. I think it must be an awfully beautiful place where the books wait for future owners.

Scrawler, while reading some of Marni's links, I did think of Hitler. What a horrible time for a country to live through! There were concentration camps too. Marni's links mentioned the concentration camps.

I have wondered about the Montjuic Castle. This is where Clara's father was put as a prisoner. He never came out again. I think Montjuic means "City of the Dead."

Is Montjuic Castle a real location in Spain? This must have been another horrible place during the Spanish Civil War.

I remember reading the word "minotaur." I didn't know what Mr. Zafon meant by the word. Thank you for the definition. It also fits with what Alf said. Alf used the word "Surreal." These are two more words I came across while reading "fantasy world." While reading, there have been many time when I feel as though I have crossed over into a surreal state.

I have another question. Who is "Sancho Panza?" I saw this name while reading "Shadow of the Wind." I have no recognition of it, but I am curious about the name.

Pedln, I have thought of an author. I might liken her writings to Ruiz Zafon. I can't remember her name. She wrote a really fat novel. I finished it because it was so very good. I'm going to try and remember her name.

Scrawler, thanks for all the information about Picasso too.

Pedln, I remember! The book is "Mysteries of Udolpho" by Ann Radcliffe. Her book is filled with long descriptions. The descriptions are very beautiful, but the book is like a thriller for its time.

Yes, Montjuic Castle is a real place in Barcelona. Here are some pics.

Marni

http://www.bcninternet.com/touristinfo.php?contentid=694&directlnk=yes

http://www.pbase.com/jolka/barcelona_beautiful

I just read that Montjuic means "mountain of the Jews."

Another pic:

http://www.emoware.org/photos/barcelona26.htm

Wow, Hats, you hit the nail on the head with Ann Radcliffe and Mysteries of Udolfo. I had never heard of the book, but the author sounded familiar. This is what Amazon had to say about her and it:

"A best-seller in its day and a potent influence on Sade, Poe, and other purveyors of eighteenth and nineteenth-century Gothic horror, The Mysteries of Udolpho remains one of the most important works in the history of European fiction."

And from a reviewer:

"While this is a Gothic novel, arguably the greatest Gothic novel ever written, it is so much more than that. "Gothic" denotes dark castles, spectral haunts, dastardly deeds performed by cruel, mysterious men--certainly these elements are here. However, a large portion of this novel is simply beautiful--no one I know of has ever described the simple grandeur of life and nature or waxed more poetically on the noble merits of love and honor as does Ann Radcliffe."

I have seen a lot of articles referring to "Shadow" as Gothic.

Marni, you have really picked up on Fumero. My Spanish was very rudimentary and is definitely more so, but if I remember my Puerto Rico days, NO FUME meant NO SMOKING. He really is a bad case, but I suppose if he were on trial here his lawyer would claim it was all because of his mother.

While we're on Fumero, why do you think Ruiz Zafon has included the stories about Don Federico? Is he going to be a major player, or is it just the author's style, these details about so many things?

Marni, thanks for the link to the picture of the castle. What a forboding building. It looks like a dungeon about ground.

Pedln,

Thank you so much for printing the reviews!!

I've been thinking about the history of Spain I've skimmed recently. There was so much upheaval. So many wars, conquests of people and territory, cultural shocks, violence, genocide, suppressions, great wealth and great poverty, great power and great loss, religious intolerance. I think of things like the Spanish Inquisition, the cruelty with which the Spanish conquered the Americas, the cruelty against the Jews, trying to wipe out the Catalan culture and language, the intensity of the Spanish civil war, fascism and dictators.

Did the violence of their past mold the people? Or are they just like anyone? Is this pretty much like what other countries go through?

I find it strange when I read the language of Shadow, the darkness, the secret police, terror, mystery, war, people disappearing, murder, hidden books. It doesn't fit with the pictures I'm seeing of Barcelona. What a beautiful bright city filled with color, unusual shapes, lovely waterfront, looks almost like a fantasy world.

Just a quickie because we've been having network problems here, last night and today. The kids showed me what to do on the "hub," but it's been acting up. Back later.

It's on again off again here, -- or unplug and replug,lasting about 10 minutes -- this little wire, that you can't see where you're plugging it. I don't want to get it in the wrong hole and bring down the whole system.

Marni, I don't have any answers to your questions on Spanish history, about did violence mold the people. But I did look at your links about the Civil War and also some others and apparently the war had a great influence on art and literature in Spain, and world wide. Of course, probably the best known here is Hemingway's "For Whom the Bells Toll." "Bell Tolls?" But there was also another very popular novel about the civil war that came out at the same time (1940) -- by Rose Macauly -- I don't have the title exact -- "As No Man's Wit" or some such. Her title and Hemingway's both came from John Donne, which I thought interesting. And of course Hemingway's book has had several reprints, films, etc. Rose Macauly got none of that, although her book was highly praised and reviewed when it came out. One hopes that her title is safely kept in the Cemetery of the Books.

In Shadow we find the Cemetery of the Books that saves books from death. I'm currently reading a biography of Galileo and it's interesting to read about book censorship in history. It hasn't always been easy (still isn't) to publish a book in the first place. History certainly shows how there have always been those who attempt to control what people can learn. Always. Even today in the U.S. schools with the ongoing controversy about teaching evolution vs biblical interpretation of man's beginnings.

Here's info from Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel:

"...All books on any topics fell under this [censorship] directive throughout Catholic Europe, following a papal bull issued in 1515 by the Medici pope Leo X. Writers seeking publication, this decree stated, must have their manuscripts scrutinized by a bishop of the Church or bishops' appointees, as well as by the local inquisitor. Printers who started their presses without the requisite permissions faced excommunication, fines, and the burning of their books..."

"The Roman Inquisition, after its reorganization in 1542, assumed supervision of printing projects in Italy, and in 1559 promulgated the first worldwide Index of Prohibited Books. In 1564...harsher new restrictions stipulated that authors as well as printers could be excommunicated for publishing works judged heretical. Even the readers of such texts could be so punished. Booksellers, likewise, had to beware, keeping an exact listing of their stock, and standing ever ready for impromptu inspections called by bishops or inquisitors."

It makes you think. Booksellers like Daniel's father may seem rather meek and quiet on the surface, but may be silent heros in times of trial such as a civil war or in a country dominated by a dictator such as Franco.

Marni

If I remember correctly, Sancho Panza was Don Quixote's side-kick in the novel "Don Quixote" by Cervantes. He went on a quest just as Daniel did. And Fermin is Daniel's side-kick in his quest.

"...The press, nefarious vulture that feeds on misfortune and dishonor, did not take long to pick up the scent of carrion. Thanks to the wretched offices of a professional informer, not forty minutes had elapsed since the arrival of the two members of the police when Kiko Calabuig appeared on the scene. Calabuig, ace reporter for the muckraking daily "El Caso", determined to uncomer whatever deplorable vignettes were necessary and to leave no shady stone unturned to spice up his lurid report in time for today's edition. Needless to say, the spectacle that took place in those premises is described with tabloid viciousness as Dantesque and horrifying, in twenty-four-point headlines." (p.151)

I love this description of the tabloids.

"Little did Pepita imagine that her Federico," continued the high-school teacher,"had spent the night in a filthy cell, where a whole band of pimps and roughnecks had handled him like a party whore, only to give him the beating of his life when they had tired of his lean flesh, while the rest of the inmates sang in chorus, 'Pansy, pansy, eat shit, you old dandy!" (p.154)

This scene could of easily been ripped from our own headlines. Just this week four white New Orleans cops were filmed beating up a 64 year old black man whose supposedly was drunk. After all that has happened in New Orleans and with the whole world focused on the city, this was the last thing they needed. But after reading this chapter in "The Shadow of the Wind" it sent a chill down my spine. Are there very many steps from what Fumero's Crime Squad did to what happened in New Orleans?

I think Federico's beating is a foreshadowing of worst things to come. I can't help but wonder if the beating of a black man in New Orleans is also a foreshadowing of worst things to come in our time.

I don't know which is worse the beating of Don Frederico or the torture of Fermin. Poor Fermin was burnt with a soldering iron.While Don Frederico is beaten so badly that he just crawls up in a fetal position.

Neither man deserved the treatment received. I also think Don Frederico's beating is leading to the worst of times. I doubt if Fermin or Don Frederico can feel safe again.

As long as Fumero is around there is a sense of brutality. He has even threatened Daniel. He is a cruel man who hates books and people. These postwar years seem as awful as the war years must have been for the people. Just because peace is called by the politicians does not mean there is safety. The hatred is still there.

I loved how the neighbors gathered to Don Frederico's side and gave him help, medicinal and otherwise.

Scrawler, thanks for telling about Sancho Panza.

Sorry I posted at the wrong site.

Marni says, "It makes you think. Booksellers like Daniel's father may seem rather meek and quiet on the surface, but may be silent heros in times of trial such as a civil war or in a country dominated by a dictator such as Franco."

Good point, and it makes you wonder what one of Franco's underlings like Fumero, in his present position could still do to booksellers. As "you point out, censorship has been around for a long long time and in many places is still going strong.

It's interesting you should bring it up today. There was a brief article in today's Washington Post about Banned Book Week, sponsored by the American Library Assoc. and held each year during the last week in September. The article listed the top 10 banned booksk for 2004, with the No. 1 being Robert Cormier's Chocolate War. I'm surprised it's #1. It's at least 25 to 30 years old, has been on banned lists forever. Guess Cormier still manages to irk a few folks, tho I think he died a few years ago - not sure about that.

Isn't it interesting the things one book like Shadow can open up for us -- Spain and Barcelona, of course, the Spanish Civil War, Illuminated Manuscripts and other very old books, other authors, and now censorship.

Have you formed an opinion on what you think is the most important event to take place in this 2nd week section. And why? Finding the letter from Penelope? Meeting Nuria Monfort? Father Fernando's story? Bea?

Are you discovering any themes? Symbols? What about the title?

The chapter title -- City of Shadows -- most appropriate because in contrast to Marni's bright, gay, Barcelona, Zofon is painting a picture of a city enveloped in shadows.

Hats and Scrawler, we were all posting close together and I didn't see your posts. Hats, what do you mean, you posted at the wrong site?

Back soon. Off to chauffer. My last trip on the despised beltway, I think. The parents return tomorrow.

Hi Pedln,

I posted a message for "Sweetgrass" here at the site "Shadow of the Wind." Duuuuh! Isn't that dumb?

Not dumb at all, Hats. Although they are two different books set in different locals with a different

focus, there are instances that could take place in either. And besides, we all have senior moments.

Scrawler, interesting comparison between Daniel and Fermin and Don Q and Sancho Panza. Though with

Daniel and Fermin, I don't know who is leading who. Fermin is a very intriguing individual and I wonder if we will find out who he really is. I have mixed feelings about whether he is a good influence on Daniel. He's certainly increasing his vocabulary.

Good point about the foreshadowing with Don Federico's arrest and beating. Do you foresee more trouble with Fumero? He issued a warning about Federico and now he's carried through. We've learned more about him in this section in the passage with Father Fernando. It's not an excuse, but his mother is really awful.

Hats, I agree with you that the postwar years seem as awful as the war years. Especially with someone like Fumero around. Like the policemen in the New Orleans beating incident, he abuses his power. Unfortunately, such abuses are not limited to Fumero or to New Orleans.

I'm loving all the entanglements and connections here. We have the four friends at school -- Fernando, Julian, Jorge, and Miquel. Then Miqel is married to Nuria Monfort who is the daughter of Issac from the Cemetery of the Books where this all started. And of course, Fumero is connected there too, as the boy Javier, who is befriended by Julian. This pot is really gettng stirred up.

What are your thoughts today?

"Nuria Monfort lived adrift in shadows. A narrow corridor led to a dining room that also served as kitchen, library, and office. On the way I noticed a modest bedroom, with no windows. That was all, other than a tiny bathroom with no shower or tub out of which all kinds of odors emanated, from smells of cooking from the bar below to a musty stench of pipes and drains that dated from the turn of the century. The entire apartment was sunk in perpetual gloom, like a block of darkness propped up between peeling walls. It smelled of black tobacco, cold, and absence..." (p.163)

"Nuria Monfort lived adrift in shadows..." This sentence was so subtle, I almost missed it. But what does it mean that she lived adrift in shadows? Was she hiding from someone? Finding Nuria Monfort probably asks more questions than answers them. To me Nuria Monfort might well be the most important character in the book. She is the catalyst that makes the other characters react. For every action there has to be a reaction - this is what Nuria Monfort does not only to the other characters but also for readers like ourselves. She is the "hook" in this novel. She makes us ask why and I think she represents all the people living in post-war Barcelona.

I love the way Zafon uses the sense of "smell" to illustrate the mood in the above paragraph. Just as he used the "infestation" of crucifixes and Fuermo's threats to strike fear. So, too, he uses "odors" to create a sense of "perpetual gloom, like a block of darkness propped up between peeling walls." To me there is a sadness here, but so much more. I almost feel like realization and supernatural have now combined to create something that is hidden beneath the surface. In other words we can see what is real, but there is something more like the "tub out of which all kinds of odors emanated..."

I like the entanglement of all the characters too. It is very odd how more than one person sees some likeness between Julian Carax and Daniel Sempere. Father Fernando sees a physical resemblance between Julian and Daniel. Fermin plays off of this statement and says that Daniel is Julian's missing son. I never know what Fermin will say next. He makes my mouth drop open. He does add flavor to the story.

Then, there is Julian's relationship with Penelope, a love relationship which seemed to anger her brother, Jorge and led to her disappearance. I feel that Daniel might, without meaning to, become involved in a nasty situation with Bea. Tomas doesn't seem happy knowing that Daniel is seeing Bea. I felt a tension in the air during their conversation. So, two sisters are involved in each situation.

Oddly, there is that other similarity. Daniel and Tomas are best friends. Julian and Jorge were best friends. Something is brewing and leading somewhere, but I am in the dark.

It is so strange how Daniel picks a book written by a man, Julian Carax, who is so similar to Daniel in so many ways.

Also, Julian and Daniel both wanted to be writers.

I agree you never know what might come out of Fermin's mouth.

"A good sign. Never trust girls who let themselves be touched right away. But even less those who need a priest for approval. Good sirloin steak - if you'll excuse the comparison - needs to be cooked until it's medium rare. Of course, if the opportunity arises, don't be prudish, and go for the kill. But if what you're looking for is something serious, like this thing withe me and Bernarda, remember the golden rule."

"Look, Daniel, this is like indigestion. Do you notice something here, in the mouth of the stomach - as if you'd swallowed a brick? Or do you just feel a general feverishness?" (pp.184-185)

When I read the above statements, I couldn't help wonder if this book had been written in America whether these and several other statements that Fermin makes would have been deleted from the book. Do you think Fermin's character would have been different if he hadn't said these things. I don't see anything wrong in them if they are taken tongue and cheek, but I can't say the same for everyone.

It's true. You never knew what would come out. I had to laugh at these comments from Fermin. So irreverant. I must say I was a bit shocked at some of these words coming out of Fermin's mouth. They were a bit over the top. And the 1950's. Are these things men really say to each other? And about a good Catholic girl! I don't know that the language would have been deleted in America, but the book might not have been on the public school reading list. Of course, Fermin was a man of the streets; he had been living in the streets and exposed to it all. Maybe this was a result of the times. Get from life what you can while you are able? Things can happen faster during wartime.

Sometimes Fermin was extremely crude and shocking; sometimes he was just so funny; and often he was philosophical and wise and even fatherly. Fermin often seemed so optimistic and light-hearted and fun. But often he was a cynic who denigrated persons and society. Then there was Fermin's tortured soul side, the part that made him scream in fits from the terror and torture he had gone through. And also there was Fermin, the braveheart, the picaresque hero. Was Fermin the voice of the author?

That's a hard question. I do not know the answer. If I had to pick, I would pick Daniel as the voice of the author. Why do I pick Daniel? I don't know why. To truly know why I pick Daniel, I might need to reread Ruiz Zafon's biography again.

I do think Fermin's unpredictable nature made Daniel's character stand out more clearly. It's like when Fermin would speak, I would anxiously read Daniel's reply and look for Daniel's reaction in the situation.

Scrawler says about Nuria Monfort, "She is the catalyst that makes the other characters react." Boy, I thought about that and thought, "what does she mean?" And then it hit me, of course, if it hadn't been for Nuria MOnfort there would have been no Shadow of the Wind for Daniel to find in the Cemetery of the Books. You are so right, Scrawler. She is the catalyst. I'm still curiousj about her relationship to Julian Carax, and then, did she meet her husband, Miquel Molina through Julian?

One thing about Nuria is puzzling me. Fermin has told Daniel that Nuria is the one picking up mail delivered to the Post Office Box that Mr. Molina had told Daniel about. The box that belonged to the lawyer for Sophie Carax. So Daniel concludes that Nuria has lied to him. What did she lie about to him?s I've reread that section with Daniel and Nuria and I can't figure it out. Was is her sins of omission, that she didn't tell all?

Hats, yes, what similaries between Daniel and Julian. Here they both became involved with the sisters of their good friends. Plus, as you said, people are remarking on their similar looks -- enough for Daniel to post as Julian's son. And according to Nuria, Julian also got people to telling and confessing things to him. Do you suppose it's the author in them thatbrings out people's stories.

Ha ha, Marni, I don't think this book would be on any public school list either. Not in the 1950's and not now. Speaking of public school reading, I thouht it interesting -- my granddaughter's (high school sophomore)English class has just finished reading "Catcher in the Rye." At one time, this was one of most banned books in schools, let alone let the whole class read it.

This has been my last day with the family here. I'll be on the road for the next two days, so will have a lot of time to ponder this book, such as what Marni asks about Fermin -- is he the voice of the author. Who is the voice? Hats asks if it's Daniel. I think you're right Hats when you say the answer to that might be in the author bios and interviews.

Do you think we'll find out who is the father of Julian?

Catcher in the Rye banned. Boy, that brings back memories. My sister and I read that til so late at night on school nights. We loved it so much - it seemed so real to us. I suppose it was the swear words in it.

I just finished Galileo's Daughter that I had mentioned earlier. Wow. His book Dialogue was banned in....1634, I think it was. It wasn't taken off the Catholic banned book list for nearly 200 years! (His book was a discussion of the Copernicus theory of the earth traveling around the sun rather than the sun traveling around the earth.)

I am definitely going to add "Galileo's Daughter" to my hold list at the library. Did the Seniors read it here? Is it in the archives?

I loved "Catcher in the Rye." I would love to read it with the Seniors. Because of my senior moments I have forgotten half the book.

I hope we do find out who is the father of Julian Carax.

I just realized that what I said sounded weird - "I suppose it was the swear words." I meant that was probably why it was banned, not why it seemed real to us!!!! hahaha. I think it seemed real because the main character (Holden Caulfield - I can even remember his name!!!) had real problems, a teenager's problems.

Marni

Hats: I found Galileo's Daughter in the "For Sale for 50 cents" pile at my public library recently. I don't know if a book club here discussed it. It was terrific, though, because it was so readable. Even though it was mostly about Galileo, not his daughter, and included his ideas about physics, astronomy and math, it was very readable. I cried at the end.

Marni

Speaking of banned books I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and I saw a table that said in large block letters: BANNED BOOKS. We've come a long way if "banned" books are out in the open like that. I had to laugh when I saw which books were "banned." Everyone of them I had read in the 1950s and 1960s. But the one curious book that was on the table was: Harry Potter. I haven't read any of these books, so can someone enlighten me as to why they would have been banned. "Lady Chatterly's Lover" by D.H. Lawrence was the one book that made the rounds which almost got me expelled. But as it turned out our whole graduating class of 600 took up reading it in our support and since they couldn't expell the whole graduating class the school administration dropped the charges. At that time in my life I was a rebel without a cause.

City of Shadows: Mood: "I had little doubt that Fermin's were largely devoted to the sinister appearance of Inspector Fumero in the story. I glanced over at him and noticed that he seemed consumed by anxiety. A veil of dark-red clouds bled across the sky, punctured by splinters of light the color of fallen leaves.

"If we don't hurry, we're going to get caught in a douwnpour," I said. "Not yet. Those clouds look like nighttime, like a bruise. They're the sort that wait."

"Don't tell me you're also a cloud expert, Fermin." "Living in the streets has unexpected educational side effects. Listen, just thinking about this Fumero business has stirred my juices..." (p. 220)

I've never seen clouds discribed like: "a veil of dark-red clouds bled across the sky, punctured by splinters of light the color of fallen leaves." But when you stop and think about it sometimes clouds pick up the colors of the earth and reflect them back up into the sky. I also have never thought about clouds looking like nighttime, like a bruise. Zafon creates a mood with his words and since Fermin is the one who describes them you can't help but wonder that in his description of the clouds and sky being like a bruise he isn't also talking about himself when he thinks about Fumero. It's as if just like the clouds reflect the earth so to sometimes we reflect other people and in this case Fermin is reflecting Fumero and his brutal ways.

These lines left a great impression on me. I can still remember these very lines. I think in his above biography Zafon says he is planning to write three more books with this same Gothic feeling.

"I’m working on a new novel that picks up the mix of genres and techniques of The Shadow of the Wind and tries to take it to the next level. It is the second in a cycle of four books that I’ve planned in this “gothic Barcelona quartet,” a sort of narrative kaleidoscope of Victorian sagas, intrigue, romance, comedy, mystery and “newly” fashioned old fashioned good storytelling."

Banned Books

I read D.H. Lawrence's Sons and Lovers this year. What a wonderful book - very autobiographical. It was banned until the 1960's.

Interesting list here: "Banned and/or Challenged Books from the Radcliffe Publishing Course Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century - Each year, the American Library Association (ALA) records hundreds of attempts by individuals and groups to have books removed from libraries shelves and from classrooms."

Banned

"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." (German: "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.")—Heinrich Heine, from his play Almansor (1821)

"A Look Back at . . . 'The Grapes of Wrath,' 1939–1940...Still, censorship of reading materials was very much in evidence in libraries throughout the country. One major target of the censor's ire was, of course, ‘The Grapes of Wrath,’ which was considered vulgar, immoral, and even ‘bestial.’ The book was not only banned in places like Camden, NJ, but in East St. Louis, where the board of trustees ordered all three of the library's copies to be burned. [5] Here in California, the most contentious battle against ‘Grapes of Wrath’ took place in Kern County, the heart of the state’s agricultural community.”

Burning Grapes of Wrath

Burning Harry Potter

I can't understand it. I think of Grapes of Wrath as educational.

“Don't join the book burners . . . .” — Dwight D. Eisenhower, President of the United States, 1953–1961.

I hate to think of people burning books. Nuria saved many books by Julian Carax and took those books to The Cemetery of Forgotten Books. Thank goodness for people who do such deeds.

Is Fahrenheit 451 about the burning of books?

On the list is "Winnie the Pooh." It is not highlighted. It is on the list.

I love Harry Potter. I have read one and want to finish the series.

Do you believe that a structure like a house, in this case the Aldaya house - The Angel of the Mist, can take on the persona of the people of the house? Is this what we might call a "haunted house"?

"Seven months later, in July 1900, Jausa, his wife, and the maid Marisela moved into the house. By August the two women would be dead and the police would find a dazed Salvador Jausa naked and handcuffed to the armchair in his study. The report made by the sergeant in charge of the case remarked that all the walls in the house were bloodstained, that the statues of the angels surrounding the garden had been mutilated - their faces painted like tribal masks - and that traces of black candles had been found on the pedestals." (p.234)

"...The dark shadow of Marisela's blood still covered the walls. ...Apparently Jausa was convinced that the spirit of Marisela had remained in the house. He asserted that he could feel her presence, her voice, her smell, and even her touch in the dark. (p.235)

Jausa, left on his own, sank further into his obsession with his invisible specters. He decided that the answer to his woes lay in making the invisible visible.(p.236)

...Moreover, where others saw shapes and shadows, he saw revenants. He swore he could see the silhouette of Marisela materializing under a shroud, a shadow that then mutated into a wolf and walked upright...(p.236)

...The stories spread: the dark legend of the rambling mansion, like the invasion of Cuban music in the city's dance hall, could not be contained." (p.237)

Spooky! So do you think Aldaya bought a haunted house? Are there such things as haunted houses or only haunted people? Like Zafon says in his last line: "the dark lengend of the rambling mansion...could not be contained." Therefore, when we hear of haunted houses, are we only hearing about the haunted or deranged people that lived in these houses.

I know when I was a little girl kids used to tell me about an old woman who lived in the "haunted" house at the end of our block. One Halloween they dared me to go up to the house. Even then I was a rebel. When I knocked on the door, an old woman did answer, but with the light from inside the house she didn't seem so scary. She invited me in and fed me cookies and coca. The rest of the evening was spent in her telling me stories about what it was like when she was a little girl. Needless to say, I used to go there after school sometimes and listen to her stories and eat her cookies. When the kids asked me about the old woman, I refused to tell them what really happened - and as they say the legends grew!

Scrawler wrote: Do you believe that a structure ... the Aldaya house, The Angel of the Mist, can take on the persona of the people of the house? Is this what we might call a "haunted house"?

ok, folks, this is why I don't like the book ...
... don't believe in haunted houses or ghosts ...
... think crop circles are made by the farmers ...
... don't care if the kids like being afraid ...
Life, for me, is too short to spend time worrying about supernatural phenomena.

Wow, you all don't let grass grow under your feet. I've been home about an hour and couldn't wait to see your posts. I'm glad you found the ALA Banned Book site. As a former school librarian, I loved Banned Book Week. We would order a few posters each year, and also some book marks, with lists of banned books on them. Some of the teachers gave Banned Book related assignments, and some of the English teachers would give extra credit to those who read and reported on Banned Books. Several years ago two of my colleagues and I ordered "Censored" t-shirts from the WAshington Coalition Against Censorship. They were covered with titles that were banned, and we wore them at least once during the week.

Hats, Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" is set sometime in the future. In this book, the firemen so not put out fires. They burn books because people might get ideas from books that would upset the status quo. Supposedly paper begins to burn at Fahrenheit 451 -- thus the title. Bradbury wrote this very short and easily read book in response to some event. Do any of you remember what it was? I was going to say the McCarthy hearings, but I think that was when Arthur Miller wrote the Crucible.

Tomorrow we start the third section, and if you have any thoughts on focus questions, please put them out. In this section we find out more about Julian Carax from Penelope's nurse/governess, and Fumero seems to keep coming more and more into the picture.

Scrawler, it looks like the author has made "Angel of the Mist" a haunted house. But this is not the only place where ghosts have appeared in the story, is it? ANd can someone refresh my memory -- was is Jorge and Penelope's mother who committed suicide? One of the mothers did.

Mippy, sorry you didn't like the book. I'm not necessarily a fan of ghosts and supernatural, but I am enjoying this book very much. Ruiz Zafon still allows the story to be plausible, with or without the magical elements. Everything is still doused in shadows.

Back tomorrow, after unpacking and sleep.

I think this whole novel is about "shadows" or if you prefer "ghosts" but not the kind that show up on our TV on the late night show. I'm referring the ghosts or shadows that are within ourselves. The kind the reside in the cobwebs of our mind. They may be scraps of memory from childhood that as adults have lain half forgotten and suddenly one day emerge to frighten us once again but in a very real way. I can see this in all of the characters - even Daniel - he too lives with the shadow of his dead mother.

"...He hadn't told me anything about that strange trembling of the hands that turned every button, every zip, into a superhuman challenge. Nor had he told me about that bewitchment of pale, tremulous skin, the first brush of the lips, or about the mirage that seemed to shimmer in every pore of the skin. He didn't tell me any of that because he knew that the miracle happend only once and, when it did, it spoke in a language of secrets that, were they disclosed, would vanish again forever. A thousand times I wanted to recover that first afternoon with Bea in the rambling house of Avnida del Tibidabo, when the sound of the rain washed the whole world away with it. A thousand times I've wished to return and lose myself in a memory from which I can rescue only one image stolen from the heat of the flames: Bea, naked, and glistening with rain, lying by the fire, with open eyes that have followed me since that day. I leaned over her and passed the tips of my fingers over her belly. Bea lowered her eyelids and smiled, confident and strong...She was seventeen, her entire life shining on her lips." (pp.241-242)

As part of this novel, Zafon, wove many elements together. There is so much to see within these pages, but we must not forget that this is also a coming of age book for Daniel and Bea. This portion adds a softness to the novel that most detective or even horror stories do not have. I think this element of -coming of age- adds to the book as if you were cooking a great bowl of soup and the coming of age element were spices added to the soup for flavor.

The San Francisco Chronicle refers to this scene with Bea as: "Zafon's writing is so epic and vague, he fails to engage the reader even when desciribing real-events...Worse, when it comes to the element most essential to any self respecting potboiler, sex, he fails even more jarringly: 'Bea lowered her eyelids and smiled, confident and strong. 'Do what you like to me,' she whispered. She was seventeen, her entire life shining on her lips.'"

What do you think? Did the San Francisco Chroncile miss the boat when they described Zafon's writing as being "epic and vague" or would you agree that when it came to "potboiler and sex" Zafon's descriptions were not up to par with the rest of the novel.

Oh wonderful point, Scrawler on the ghosts both metaphoric and "real" in this thing, well done!

Thank all of you for the nice comments on the Illuminated manuscript pages, I no longer remember how I got into it, I think it was an article somewhere about how affordable they are, they ARE affordable and it's nice to have something like that, but the more you go on in it the higher your taste rises, so I think I need to rest on what I have (until the next catalogue). You might call that a cemetery of forgotten books actually, except to some they are not at all forgotten.

Oh yes I think the SF Chronicle definitely missed the point, but what do the rest of you think? I was personally glad he left that out, who needs it? Really.

I think the San Francisco Chronicle "missed the boat." I think Mr. Zafon writes a great family saga. To me, there is a bit of everything in the novel. Reading this book is like flying through the air on a roller coaster. I hold my stomach and get ready for the next fast loop. Then, Zafon slows it down. This is when I take a breather. All families, I think, take that roller coast ride.

The friendships in the book are the breathing spaces. I loved reading about Miquel's and Julian's friendship. Miquel works so hard at trying to make a way for Penelope and Julian to spend their lives together. Miquel throws his body on top of Julian's trying to save his life.

Miquel's words to Julian about writing, not letters, but books stayed with me. Miquel wanted his friend to fulfill his dream. At this point, I decided that Julian Carax is the voice of the author, not Daniel. Ruiz Zafon also attended a Jesuit school, like Julian. Julian's love of books and writing make me see the face of Ruiz Zafon.

Daniel I see as myself. The one who wants to discover the truth about Julian Carax. Daniel is looking "through a glass darkly." I, as a reader, find myself on a search too. Daniel and Fermin are leading me by the hand.

The love between Penelope and Jacinta stayed with me too. Jacinta loved Penelope so much. So sad how Penelope and Jacinta were separated especially the years spent by Jacinta in an asylum. Against her will, she was placed there by Penelope's father.

So much love in "Shadow of the Wind" and so many unsaid good-byes. There is so much love and so much suffering comes with the love. There are not haunted houses. There are haunted souls. Haunted souls are too busy grappling with their demons to make a house a home.

Then, there is the friendship between Fermin and Daniel. When Daniel is unable to stop Fumero and his thugs from nearly beating Fermin to death, Daniel feels so hurt and feels guilty too. This fight with love and guilt, not being able to save your friend reminded me of The Kite Runner, another wonderful book.

Scrawler, I love your first paragraph.

Ginny,

I am so glad you did include the information and scanned the photos of your illuminated manuscripts. The blue and gold is beautiful and memorable. As a matter of fact, I picked up my book yesterday. Thank you for mentioning the book. I have read a few pages. "Scribes and Illuminators" is very interesting and not hard too understand.

Already I have learned that parchment is made out of animal skin. I can't wait to read more of this book. Thank you for sharing so much.

I am so glad! And I loved your sentence above also, "At this point, I decided that Julian Carax is the voice of the author, not Daniel. Ruiz Zafon also attended a Jesuit school, like Julian. Julian's love of books and writing make me see the face of Ruiz Zafon." Oh I love that, what a provocative idea!!!

Ginny,

"Provocative????" I love that word!! It's sooo provocative (hats, laughing).

The first thing that comes to mind when I think of "Fahrenheit 451" is censorship. Since it was published in the 1950s I think the McCarthy trials probably had a lot to do with the original idea for Fahrenheit. But I think it goes much further than that. During the 1950s television was becoming popular. We were creating a lifestyle whose people NO LONGER READ. During this time television, rock 'n roll and fast cars were replacing books. I can't help but wonder what Bradbury would think of today's world with Internet and Cable Television.

City of Shadows: "We entered a wide vault where I found no difficulty in situating the stage for the Tenebrarium described by Fermin. The darkness obscured what at first seemed to me like a collection of wax figures, sitting or abandoned in corners, with dead, glassy eyes that shone like tin coins in the candlelight. I thought that perhaps they were dolls or remains of the old museum. Then I realized that they were moving, though very slowly, even stealthily. It was impossible to tell their age or gender. The rags covering them were the color of ash." (p.251)

"She wandered off into the shadows, carrying her bucket and dragging her shadow like a bridal veil...It was a dismal room built into the walls of a cave that sweated with damp. Chains ending in hooks hung from the ceiling, and the cracked floor was broken up by a sewage grating. In the center of the room, on a grayish marble table, was a wooden crate for industrial packaging. Fermin raised the lamp, and we caught a glimpse of the deceased between the straw padding. Parchment features, incomprehensible,jagged and frozen. The swollen skin was purple. The eyes were open: white, like broken eggshells." (p.252)

Who needs supernatural horror when we have realistic horror such as described above. I can't help thinking that it reminds me of New Orleans. Because the cemetaries are below the water level there are times when the water rises that coffins raise with the waters. It creates an eerie scene of coffins floating in water.

I'm sorry for my lack of posts but I am now in NY State. My daughter flew us up for my big #62 next week. I've bragged about being able to collect social security and have made such a big deal of it they've decided to have a family bash for me. I love parties! I love extra $$$ too. I shall return.

"...In her dreams Jacinta perceived the past and the future and, at times, saw revealed to her the secrets and mysteries of the old streets of Toledo. One of the characters she would see repeatedly in her dreams was someone called Zacarias, an angel who was always dressed in black and who was accompanied by a dark cat with yellow eyes whose breath smelled of sulfur. Zarcrias knew everything...He had augured that in her lifetime she would behold the death of everything she most loved, and that before she reached heaven, she would visit hell..." (p.261)

What are dreams? According to Webster, "A dream is a series of thoughts or visions during sleep." So why do we dream? Or to put it another way, what do dreams mean? I'm not Freud by any stretch of the imangination, but I think dreams put into visions or thoughts what are subconscious is "thinking about." Perhaps we are perplexed over a problem that doesn't really come to the front during our waking hours, but when we sleep - we relax and those thoughts come to the surface and I think for the most part dreams are there to help us.

For example, "...So when the doctors diagnosed that she would never be able to have children, Jacinta wasn't surprised. Nor was she surprised, although she almost died of grief, when her husband of three years announced that he was going to leave her..." (p.261)

Dreams I think for the most are warning us about something that we might already know about, but can't accept. In the case of Jacinta, she probably already knew that she couldn't have children and that her husband was leaving her, but wouldn't accept the situation. It was only through her dreams that she learned to accept what was happening to her.

Scrawler,

I think you are probably right about the meaning of dreams. The thoughts in our subconscious probably do come to the forefront of our minds during relaxation.

I also think that Jacinta led such a sad life. Perhaps, one misfortune after another misfortune led her to feel hopeless and undeservant. Too many painful experiences can lead to feelings that a Zacarias" is waiting around every bend we turn.

I feel also that in many cultures there are folklores about ghosts and other superstitions. These superstitions go with us through life. Jacinta had heard about "oceans of fire, red scorpions, nuns who poisoned children,etc." I am a rational adult and I still will try not to break a mirror. That means seven years of bad luck!

In any case, I feel that believing in a dream or dreams takes away my chance to make my own decisions or choices. Belief in a dream gives something, I don't know what, control over my life.

I do believe that poor Jacinta led a hard life and met people who were cruel to her. That wasn't her fault. I guess it was just one of the inescapable and incomprehensible parts of life. It brings us back to the age old question "why do good people suffer?"

I really liked Jacinta. She loved Penelope so much. Jacinta didn't deserve to live the last days of her life in that horrible place. She deserved better.

Oh my, I did not intend to neglect anyone or this site, but just did not realize how tired I would be after my travels. I'll blame the miles, not the kids. All I wanted to do was nothing, and my thinking skills were happy to go along with that.

Now that's passed, and Scrawler, yes, I agree with you and Hats and Ginny that the San Francisco Chronicle surely did miss the boat in its assessment of "Shadow of the Wind." Really, must we let everything hang out? I'm so glad the author has not done that. His description, in Daniel's words, of that first sexual experience, was beautifully told. I love that last sentence -- "She was seventeen, her entire life shining on her lips." We don't need to be told more.

Hats, I like what you say about the friendships in the book being breathing spaces. They are the calm spots in the roller coaster you speak of. Good connection with the beating scene here and in the Kite Runner. Do you think Daniel is too hard on himself? He's saying he's a coward because he didn't come to Fermin's defense, yet we know that Fumero would have liked nothing better than to call on his henchmen to stomp him. He so knows how to twist the knife, that Fumero, as he says, "I don't dirty my hands with cowards."

And now, although he says it wasn't his fault, Daniel really is blaming himself for Nuria Monfort's death. Who did kill Nuria Monfort, and why?

So many things have happened in this section. It's almost like they are racing towards a grand finale. Is there a pivotal point here, are we coming to a climax? I'm finding it difficult to sort out the most important events because there are so many, and so many of them happened in the past. And then we have to ask ourselves, whose story is this -- Julian's or Daniel's? (We've asked this before, but it is a conundrum.)

So, what's happened here --
Daniel and Bea make love
Daniel and Fermin find Jacinta and hear her story
Fermin is severely beaten by Fumero
Daniel and Bea go again to the Aldaya mansion where

Daniel finds Penelope's coffin and
The voice of Lain Coubert tells them to leave

Daniel accuses Nuria of lying and she accuses him of meddling
and more and more

At this point, I thnk Jacinta's story is important because it opens up many doors, confirming the love between Julian and Penelope, telling about the friendship of Miquel, the actions of the young Fumero. Her story, and that of Father Fernando tell us much about the young Julian.

Why does Daniel say "In seven days' time, I would be dead?" (p.312)

Andy, we've missed you and hope you 'll be back soon. In the meantime, have a great birthday.

"IN SEVEN DAYS' TIME, I WOULD BE DEAD."

What a wonderful "hook" the author has given us. I'm sure, like myself, all of you wanted read on to find out why Daniel would be dead in seven days. Since we were only half way through the book I couldn't believe that Daniel would end up dead as in really dead. It was true that he was on Fumero's hit list, but I just couldn't believe that the author had taken us this far only to kill off one of his main characters.

"Only someone who has barely a week left to live could waste his time the way I wasted mine during those days. All I did was watch over the telephone and gnaw at my soul, so much a prisoner of my own blindness that I wasn't capable of guessing what destiny was already taking for granted." (p.313)

Ah! Perhaps Daniel only thinks he's going to die. But than there is Bea's boyfriend who she is supposed to marry and if he somehow found out about Bea and Daniel, well...

"Daniel, something must have happened. A great-aunt has died, or a parrot has got the mumps, or she's caught a cold from so much going around without enough clothes to cover her bum - goodness knows what..." (p.314-315)

"...No. You seem fretful. I know that at your age these things look like the end of the world, but everything has a limit..." (p.315)

Now these paragraphs make me wonder if Bea's disapperance is mimicing Penelope's disappearance and we already know what happened to Penelope. Will Daniel mimic Julian's reaction when Julian realized Penelope was not coming to Paris? The bottom line with a hook like "in seven days' time, I would be dead" I am compelled to keep on reading well into the wee hours of the morning to find out what happens.

When I read Daniel would be dead in a week, at first I thought, "Oh, no, he's going to be killed by either Fumero or Bea's brother."

But then I thought he might be planning an escape, like an elopement with Bea or something, and have to change his name and hide his past to prevent people from catching up with him. So I thought the old Daniel would be effectively dead.

I thought Penelope's death was horribly shocking and gruesome.

I thought Penelope's death very sad too. When I read that statement about Daniel dying, I wanted to read further, and I didn't want to read further. I just didn't want to read about Daniel's death. He's like a good buddy or an older brother. Besides, Mr. Sempere would feel terribly upset. He's such a kind man and a good father. I didn't want him to suffer such a loss.

Penelope and Julian's love for one another and Daniel's love for Bea share so many commonalities. I hope Daniel doesn't experience some tragedy because of his love for Bea.

I agree Hats- doesn't it seem like their lives are parallel?

Andy, glad to see you're back. I hope you're still in New York, away from Wilma's threats.

Yes, Hats, I'll agree with you too, about the parallels between Daniel and Julian and the young women they loved. And in both their situations, the girls' families disapproved of the relationship. Even Daniel's good friend Tomas is being cool and unfriendly towards him.

So the author has given us a "hook," Scrawler. I think your conclusions are right on target. Surely Daniel would not really be dead. Though I don't know why he made that statement. As Marni has said, maybe the old Daniel would be dead. But the old Daniel is still very much around, still beating up on himself for all his self-perceived cowardly acts -- for not defending Fermin, blaming himself for Nuria's death, and now belatedly realizing that his phone call to Bea will get her in trouble.

I was just rereading Daniel's second visit to Nuria and am finally a little clearer on the post office box. Mr. Molina, the apartment caretaker told Daniel the PO box was that of a law firm. But Fermin discovered the law firm didn't exist. So who besides Mr. Molina has been sending all that mail that was collected by Nuria?

And who is this policemen that is acting friendly towards Daniel? This Palacios? And who is this Lain Coubert? Daniel says it is Jorge Aldaya, Penelope's brother.

Are you seeing any themes here? This book is a mystery, for sure, and certainly contains a lot of desperate young love. Anything else?

I see a theme of "the power of secrets," I think.

Wasn't Lain Coubert a character in one of Julian's novels? I thought Daniel referred to him as the "devil".

There are so many genres in this novel its hard to tell them apart sometimes. I think of this novel not only as a mystery and romance story but also as a historical account of what it was like living under Franco's rule.

"Life on the streets is short. People look at you in disgust, even the ones who give you alms, but this is nothing compared to the revulsion you feel for yourself. It's like being trapped in a walking corpse, a corpse that's hungry, stinks, and refuses to die." (p.322)

I read recently that there are more families living today on the street than at anytime in our history. What a sad comentary on today's society. The fact is we pay our athletics more than teachers, our corporations continue to downsize, and our factories continue to close. So I am not surprised that there are families living on the streets. Just last weekend I read in our local newspaper that families can no longer qualify for houses and are living in apartments until they can get back on their feet. Unfortunately, some never do get on their feet. This in turn sends apartment rents skyrocketing. After what happened with Katrina, I doubt that we can depend on our government for help. But like Fermin I believe these people living on the street feel badly enough. They certainly don't deserve our "looks of disgust".

There certainly are a lot of secrets here, Hats. Yes, I see the power of secrets and coverups as a theme too.

Scrawler brings up the war and Franco's rule. Both could be themes. Ruiz Zafon doesn't dwell a lot on the Civil War, but what he does say is very powerful and one can certainly feel its strong presence and that of its aftermath. It's interesting to me, they (the characters) don't say much about World War II. Franco was facist, but I don't know much about Spain's role during World War II other than to surmise it was not an one of our allies.

Scrawler, yes, it is a sad commentary about today's society that so many are living on the streets. Affordable housing is one of our country's greatest needs, only what's affordable varies from one place to another. Housing is certainly a lot less here in my small city, than on either of the coasts. I find it mind boggling when I visit family members there and am always asking, where does the average worker live, the policemen, the teachers, the nurses. In my son's county the powers that be are starting to wake up and come up with programs to provide homes in the county for the people who provide services for county residents.

Back to themes, we've all touched on this one -- the power of books, the love of books.

Lain Coubert is the devil in Carax's Shadow. In Zafon's Shadow he is the one trying to buy up all of Carax's books. Who is he? Daniel is sure he is Jorge Aldaya.

I am taking a bigggg guess. Maybe Lain Courbet, the devil, is Don Ricardo Aldaya, Penelope and Jorge's father? He is the one who locked Penelope in her bedroom, dared the servants to speak and the one who threw Jacinta out on the street. He definitely would not want Julian's name remembered.

I feel kind of embarrassed saying this but I thought it was sort of obvious who Lain Coubert was. I'm not going to let the cat out of the bag. But who really would have been the most unhappy to have Julian Carax' books in the world?

Marni

Oh, I might know, Marni. I loved your hint. I should have known. Who else?

This may not be the time to say this but I was not actually clear on why the books are being destroyed, I'll stifle a bit but I loved the mystery here, and there's no doubt that awful smoking Fumero is going to loom as almost a nemesis.

I loved this, Scrawler, and missed it entirely when I read the book the first time:

Wasn't Lain Coubert a character in one of Julian's novels? I thought Daniel referred to him as the "devil".

That's a super question in the heading, Pedln, of all the events in this section, what do we think is the MOST important thing that has happened? I think that in this section things and people have all taken on another level, they have become symbols. As you say Zafon does not say much about the Civil War but with a character like Fumero he almost doesn't have to, especially in the closing chapters, I'm beginning to think the entire book is symbolic, I'm not sure of what, it's a fun and stunning read but it seems to me that it's symbolic of something more, it's...almost done to the point of being overdone in order to make a point maybe. Not sure.

It's such a sad mystery too. I can't imagine how the book will end. In the heading, question nine is another one I can't answer. Maybe I missed the answer. The women, I think, lead such sad and miserable lives.

1. Daniel's mother died of cholera. 2. Nuria Montfort is murdered. 3. Penelope is tortured. Then, dies horribly while giving birth. She gives birth to a stillborn child. 4. Jacinta lives in that horrible nursing home. 5. Fumero's mother is cruel and cares more about herself than her son. 6. Sophie Carax is beaten and abused by the men in her life. 7. Penelope and Jorge's mother die of a broken heart. 8. I can't remember Miquel's mother.

What other mothers or women are there?? My memory is terrible. Do we learn anything about Nuria's mother, Isaac's wife? I can't remember.

Hats, thank you for the summary of the women. Is Bea the only one to escape tragedy? One of the mothers committed suicide, but now I'm not sure which one. Mrs. Aldaya? Maybe someone can put there finger on it.

Don't be embarrassed Marni. Your question is interesting -- "who really would have been the most unhappy to have Julian Carax' books in the world?" At this point, more than one is unhappy with him.

"things and people have all taken on another level, they have become symbols" -- whee, that will be a difficult undertaking. Shall we each pick one. I'll start with Fermin, who to me symbolizes friendship.

I'm going to be working on final focus questions tonight. If there is something you'd like to see discussed in the final week, please email me. Thanks.

I think Fermin also represented rebellion against the fascist authority, bravery, the Catalan living spirit that fights on in the face of brutality and torture, the common man in Catalonia.

I was just remembering something.....

I saw a documentary about Franco on the History Channel (quite a long time ago). If I recall correctly, Hitler tried to force/pursuade Franco to join up with him and his Nazi cronies. Although Franco was a fascist dictator, I don't think he partnered up with Hitler the way Mussolini did. Franco remained his own man, I believe.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'll try to find out more about this after I "attend" Latin class!

I found this on the web when I was hunting for something about the relationship between Franco and Hitler.

Hitler Stopped by Franco by Jane & Burt Boyar "is the first book to deeply examine the relationship between Franco and Hitler during World War II." Here's a quote from the book site:

"....Franco's relationship with Hitler was anything but cordial. Hitler Stopped by Franco shatters the myth that the two men were friends and allies, and is backed up at every turn by historical records. The following is a comment by the great Spanish scholar, Stanley G. Payne, Hilldale-Jaume Vicens Vives Professor of History, University of Wisconsin-Madison."

"'[Franco], just out of the Spanish Civil War, had no intention of entering another, greater war on either side, and... by setting an unreachable price for Hitler to pay for his cooperation with the Caudillo was "buying peace with words," tightrope walking between two swords, hoping for the entire conflict to go away without any involvement. Despite the Civil War debt to Hitler, Franco resisted the Führer's threats and cajolery and did not permit the Wehrmacht to enter Spain, carry out Hitler's plan to close the Mediterranean to British shipping and consequently force the end of World War II in 1940 before the United States could be ready to enter. The real events depicted in this narrative did occur and this one man's actions, although entirely self serving on behalf of Spain, may well have tipped the balance of World War II in favor of the allies.'"

Here's a somewhat different picture of Franco and Spain during WWII.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/spain/spwwii.html

One of the biggests "symbols" is the book itself, "The Shadow of the Wind." From the very first pages where we find the book in the cemetery of forgotten books we know it is important. Every character in the book wants to get his/her hands on the book and had their own reasons for doing so. All the characters wanted the book except perhaps Fumero which is interesting. Throughout the novel he never once mentions "The Shadow of the Wind." What does that tell us about Fumero? The book to me is a symbol of knowlege and enlightenment.

"Miguel Moliner was a sad boy. He suffered from an unhealthy obsession with death and all matters funeral, a field to whose consideration he dedicated much of his time and talent. His mother had died three years earlier as a result of a strange domestic accident, which some foolish doctor had dared to describe as suicide. It was Miquel who had discovered the shining body under the water of well, in the summer mansion the family had in Argentona. When they pulled her out with ropes, they found that the pockets of the dead woman's coat were filled with stones. There was also a letter written in German, the mother's native tongue, but Mr. Moliner, who had never bothered to learn the language, burned it that same afternoon without allowing anyone to read it. Miquel Moliner saw death evrywhere - in fallen leaves, in birds that dropped out of their nests in old people, and in the rain, which swept everything away. He was exceptionally talented at drawing and would often become distracted for hours with charcoal sketches in which a lady, whom Julian took to be his mother, always appeared agaisnt a background of mist and deserted beaches." (p.211)

Miquel Moliner could almost be a Christ-like symbol. He was perhaps Julian's only real friend.

A few comments, as I try to absorb over 20 posts I missed, during a very busy week ...
Ginny wrote that she was "not actually clear on why the books are being destroyed" and I was confused, as well. I haven't finished the book yet, so all may soon become clear.
However, the distruction of books is really upsetting, don't you think?
It's only one step away from distruction of intellectuals who value books, and then one
step away either the auto-de-fe or the Holocaust.

Moreover, the list of all the tragedies occurring to the women (thanks for that summary, Hats) reminds me why I put the book down unfinished last summer ... it's actually, to me, not a mystery to be solved, but a litany of how fascism wipes out families, children, parents, and entire cultures. It's almost too upsetting to read.

Scrawler: You've got me thinking. The Shadow of the Wind as a symbol. Of course. Think of it. A shadow is a visible image, albeit a dark partial image, of something else. The wind is invisible, although it can be felt. So, we're talking about the shadow of something that can be felt but not seen. Impossible? No. What are some possibilities?

How about Julian Carax himself? He is invisible once he disappears. But his dark shadow is cast over everything that is happening in the book, haunting people who were important in his life, beguiling others. Everyone has been hunting for him or his books.

How about the political climate of the times? The civil war left its mark. Franco is still dictator. The pall of fascism may not be visible, but it has cast its shadow over all the citizens of Barcelona, killing some, forcing others to flee, torturing some, sometimes bringing out the worst in people, forcing everyone to live a secret life, hiding books....

I truly fell in love with Daniel Sempere. Without the love of books he would have never put himself in so much danger to find out about the man who wrote Shadow of the Wind. Daniel had a paternal spirit to save his child, the child being the book, Shadow of the Wind.

I read somewhere in the book that Julian Carax felt if one person remembered you, then you were not forgotten. Daniel fought to keep Julian Carax' memory alive. Daniel, in my mind, acted as a father to Julian Carax. Really, Julian Carax had never experienced the true love of a father. Mr. Fortuny learned to love too late and Don Ricardo Alday betrayed Julian.

Then, There is Mr. Sempere who took Daniel, his son, to the Cemetery of Forgotten Books. Daniel's journey would not have begun without Mr. Sempere. I see Mr. Sempere as a symbol of a guiding star.

Mippy, what you wrote really impacted me.

"It's only one step away from distruction of intellectuals who value books, and then one step away either the auto-de-fe or the Holocaust."

To me, this seems like a very important theme.

When I would read about Fumero and his thugs, I kept thinking of Hitler and the Nazis. Fumero hated books, people and himself. Reading about Fumero and his deeds did almost become unbearable.

I wonder if Daniel's last name could be symbolic of anything. Sempere. Now that I'm taking Latin, I'm getting into this. Always. Could this sort of imply that he will always be there? Sort of like someone strong or steady?

Marni,

That's really interesting!!

Marni,

Remember the wedding song "Always?" "I'll be loving you always not for just an hour, not for just a day but always." Remember that song???

If it's possible for Daniel Sempere to symbolize the father figure of Julian Carax, can Julian Carax symbolize a wounded child? There is a quote in "Shadow of the Wind." I wrote it down. I can't remember the page. The quote struck me as words I want to remember and think about for a long time.

"One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. By the time the mind is able to comprehend what has happened, the wounds of the heart are already too deep."

Julian Carax had been wounded before he ever met Penelope Aldaya. The sad end to Penelope was just one more pack that broke the camel's back.

Was that a wedding song? I remember it! Those old songs had punch and pizzaz, too bad they are gone now, some of them are really beautiful.

Marni what an interesting thought, and Scrawler, also with the Shadow of the Wind itself being symbolic, I am really enjoying your posts.

But Marni is making me wonder about all of the character's names now. Fumero , Sempre or however it's spelled Daniel himself in the lion's den, hate to carry this to extremes but ... well heck Penelope? Penelope that's the first thing I glommed on when I read it, that name. But I'm not seeing the symbolism with the original Penelope, Ulysses's faithful wife? I went back and read Hats's post about the women and their fates, that was a good one, but I'm not seeing the parallel, just yet.

Ginny, what a good idea about Penelope.....hmmmmmm.....Penelope in this book WAS faithful to Julian as along as possible despite her family's antagonism towards Julian.

We already talked earlier about Fumero.

Who else?

You know, I just can't visualize Daniel as a father figure. Maybe something else, but not a father figure. He's too much of a kid. Most of the book, he's been unsure of himself, immature, testing the waters, being guided by his father and father figure Fermin, having his first love affairs. To me he's a maturing young man, not a father.

Maybe he's going to have the happiness that Julian never had. There are so many similarities between Julian and Daniel. Is Julian just a SHADOW of what Daniel will become?

Marni

See with Julian I keep thinking for some reason, Julian the Apostate. I don't know why? It just keeps ringing thru my head, Julian the Apostate.

Tomorrow it's supposed to rain here in the vineyard and so I hope to reread the last of this book so I can warble coherently. hahaahah

It's so easy to warble incoherently. I agree. Ginny, I definitely can see what you are saying. It all makes so much sense. I would not have made it through the book without the help of Pedln, Alf, Scrawler, Marni and Mippy too.

I am glad you allowed me the right to warble awhile. I get so excited. I love books and discussions. In the end, I settle down and read other posts. I know in those posts there is so much I didn't see or understand. It's fun.

Hats said, "One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel...the time the mind is able to comprehend what has happend, the wounds of the heart are already too deep."

According to Isaac, Nuria Monfort was like that: "...I can only remember her the way she was as a little girl. She was very quiet then, you know. She looked at everything pensively, and never laughed. What she liked best were stories, and I don't think any child has ever learned to read so early. She used to say she wanted to be an author and write encyclopedias and treatises on history and philosophy. Her mother said it was all my fault. She said that Nuria adored me and because she thought her father loved only books, she wanted to write books to make her father love her." (p.357)

"The cathedral bells were ringing when I began to read Nuria Monfort's manuscript. Her small, neat writing reminded me of her impeccable desk. Perhaps she had been trying to find in these words the peace and safety that life had not granted her." (p.358)

How sad that Nuria could only find peace and safety in death.

These paragraphs got me thinking. Do we form the basis of our lives in childhood? In other words is who we really are and what we are going to be already stamped in our brains before we are adults?

What Isaac said about: "...She said that Nuria adored me and because she thought her father loved only books, she wanted to write books to make her father love her" these words hit home to me. As a little girl I wanted to get closer to my father, so I read because he read. All though there were many people in my family who encouraged me to read. It was the books that he gave me to read that have always touched me the most. Even today we seem to enjoy the same type of books.

Thank you for that sentiment. It is exactly what epitomizes SeniorNet/Books & Lit.

"I am glad you allowed me the right to warble awhile. I get so excited. I love books and discussions. In the end, I settle down and read other posts. I know in those posts there is so much I didn't see or understand. It's fun."

Marni, thanks for all the info about Spain during WWII. Fascinating, and it fills in a void for me.

Scrawler, so it was Mrs. Molinar who committed suicide. I couldn't remember. No wonder Miquel was a sad boy, obsessed with death. Interesting, you comment about his being a Christ-like symbol. Wonderful, and it's further brought out in the last section, by his sacrificing his life so that Julian could live.

Mippy, I'm so glad you're still with us. I understand your reaction to the tragedies with all the women. It seems like Bea is the only one to remain unscathed, although she must have suffered when Daniel was so severely injured. But she was strengthened by the ordeal.

Hats, thanks for reminding us about Carax's statement -- if one person remembered you, then you were not forgotten. I'm still so mixed up about why Julian was so intent about destroying all his books. Why did he not want anyone to remember him?

Oh boy, you are all so great with the pickup on the names. The Latin and the Spanish -- sempere -- always, Fumero -- smoking. Ginny, please explain more about Penelope (from literature) and Julian the Apostate. I am not familiar with either.

And the symbols. Marni, great description of the shadows -- something that can be felt, but not seen -- Julian's shadow cast over everything that happens in the book, the shadow of fascism and the civil war over the people of Barcelona. And Scrawler, yes, the book as a symbol of knowledge and enlightenment. That's remarkable --your comment about Fumero -- never saying anything about the book itself. Fumero was a beast, a pig, if you will, a boy who grew up surrounded by others who had books and access to knowledge, but who only learned to hate and take revenge.

I was totally blown away by the events of this last section. What does this this tell us about Carax? And what about Nuria Monfort? We have a lot to talk about this last week. Our technical people will be putting up some more things to consider in the heading, and I'm sure you all have others of your own.

Andy, glad you're here. Hats is always on target, definitely this time.

"There are no second chances in life, except to feel remorse..." (p.261)

Do you agree or disagree with this statement? I think this is the key to Julian Carax. And it is the answer to question 11 as to why do you think the books were being destroyed.

Julian wrote his books for Penelope, but when she died he too was dead. Penelope lived within his books. Now that she had died there was no reason why his books should "live" either. As readers, we bring the characters to life and since Julian had written his books for Penelope, and she had died, he didn't want anyone else to bring his books to life and have his books by being read, give him a second chance.

"One day I was intrigued enough to ask him why he continued to publish Julian's Carax's novels as a loss-making venture. In answer to my question Cabestany ceremoniously walked over to his bookshelf, took one of Julian's books and invited me to read it. I did. Two weeks later I'd read them all. This time my question was, how we could possibly sell so few copies of those novels." (p.362)

This was not the reaction that Julian Carax wanted in regard to his books. This was a second reason why Julian tried to destroy his books. Penelope was dead; his books didn't deserve to live through the eyes of others.

Imagine the guilt and horror that Julian must have felt for the death of Penelope when he finally found out the details of what had happened in his absence. No wonder he wanted the work he had created for her to be destroyed. He was destroying himself.

I agree. Julian Carax took what he loved secondly to Penelope, his books, and destroyed their existence. In this way he committed suicide. If his name no longer existed, even on a book, then, in his mind, he had successfully accomplished killing himself.

After the fire, Nuria spoke of not being able to kiss Julian. His lips had been burnt away. This suited Julian. He did not want to experience any kind of pleasure or life after the loss of Penelope.

What surprised me the most is learning the identity of Lain Courbet. I never would have guessed that Julian Carax would decide to become his own creation, Lain Courbet,"The devil."

I just finished the book! Wow!

Thanks to everyone for keeping me into it, or I would never have finished it. When a novel
makes me that sad, I put it down; sometimes for good ...
This is a novel well worth reading!
Who ever thought the skeptic in the room would say that?

It's been a little while since I finished the book. Do you think Julian deliberately was burned in the fire he set in the factory that contained the large stock of his books. Was he trying to commit suicide there, to kill himself along with most of his books? Or was that an accident? It made sense to me that he would kill himself at that point along with the books.

But, then, why did he hang on for so long afterward, horribly burned and mutilated, near death, and then recover to live such a dreadful, wasted life full of hate and bitterness? I think you have to really have a strong will to live when you are so close to death as Julian was after the fire.

Did he develop a will to live only so that he could have revenge?

Marni

Why is this book titled, "Shadow of the Wind?"

Meri, welcome to this discussion. Your question - Why is this book titled, "Shadow of the Wind?" - is one that we've all asked ourselves and many have alluded to earlier in the posts. One easy answer might be because one of the characters, Julian Carax, wrote a book titled "Shadow of the Wind" which so captivated another character, Daniel, that he began a quest in search of the author, which in turn shaped his adult life. There are shadows throughout the book. Much of the action takes place in shadows -- on the streets of Barcelona, in the Aldaya mansion. Indeed, the whole atmosphere is one of grayness, mist, shadows. Those are the ones that can be seen. But someone, Scrawler perhaps, or was it Marni, referred to the shadows that couldn't be seen -- the shadows of the wind -- the secrets, the elusivenss, the shadow of fascism and the civil war, all the things that were happening that you couldn't put your finger on.

Scrawler also mentioned the Carax book "Shadow of the Wind" as being a major symbol in this story, a symbol of knowledge and enlightenment. Perhaps books cast their shadows over all of us, their power providing positive shadows. Do we all walk in the shadows of what we read?

In any event, we're glad you're here and hope that you will join with us as we try to absorb the conclusion of this book.

I really don't think Julian wanted to die in the fire. Julian's "real" life had become a mystery. He needed and wanted to know what happened to the people who had made up his life, especially his one love Penelope.

I also think he did want revenge. He had a right to feel angry. Fumero, to me, a man who epitomized the hatred and brutality of the war had helped tear Julian's world apart. He didn't want to die in the fire. Julian wanted closure.

Ginny,

I can definitely see Daniel and the lion's den. I think you mentioned Daniel while we were discussing Daniel Sempere.

Thanks, Hats, I did too, he's really in a lion's den. I love the question of what IS the Shadow of the Wind!!!

Welcome, mmmmm, so glad to have you here!

Pedln, as my memory is somewhat short (lacking) on the details of the characters maybe you all can help with a connection here as well.

This is all from this link, just one of many on the internet: Collapse of the Roman Empire

Julian the Apostate survived a turbulent background.

Julian was born in AD 332 at Constantinople, the son of Julius Constantius, who was a half-brother of Constantine the Great.

He was schooled in the classics of ancient Rome and it became important to him. He held on to it despite what happened around him.

Julian studied grammar and rhetoric, until he was moved from Constantinople to Nicomedia by the emperor in AD 342. Constantius II evidently didn't like the idea of a youth of Constantine's blood being too close to the centre of power, even if only as a student. Soon after Julian was moved again, this time to a remote fortress at Macellum in Cappadocia, together with his half-brother Gallus. There Julian was given a Christian education. Yet his interest in the pagan classics continued undiminished. So Julian in AD 355 was elevated to the rank of Caesar, was married with the emperor's sister Helena and was ordered to take to the Rhine to repel invasions by the Franks and Alemanni. Julian, though completely inexperienced in military matters, successfully recovered Colonia Aggripina by AD 356, and in AD 357 defeated a vastly superior force of Alemanni near Argentorate (Strasbourg). Following this he crossed the Rhine and raided German strongholds, and gained yet further victories over the Germans in AD 358 and 359. The troops quickly took to Julian, a leader who like Trajan endured the hardships of military life alongside the soldiers. (Here follows a LOT of exciting stuff about loyalties and struggles, ending in):

But the military predicament of Constantius II with the Persians required urgent attention. And so he demanded Julian to send some of his finest troops as reinforcements in the war against the Persians. But the soldiers in Gaul refused to obey. Their loyalties lay with Julian and they saw this order as a an act of jealousy on behalf of the emperor. Instead in February AD 360 they hailed Julian emperor.

On his way to Constantinople Julian then officially declared himself a follower of the old pagan gods. With Constantine and his heirs having been Christian, and Julian having, while still under Constantius officially still adhered to the Christian faith, this was an unexpected turn of events.

It was his rejection of Christianity which gave him his name in history as Julian 'the Apostate'.

Shortly after, in December AD 361, Julian entered Constantinople as the sole emperor of the Roman world.

Read more about this:

http://www.roman-empire.net/collapse/julian.html

Does that fit our Julian? I thought it did at one time!

Penelope, as told by Homer, I'll just paraphrase, but any book on mythology will tell it better.

In the Odyssey Homer tells of the wanderings of Odysseus and his attempts thru many a trial and travail, to get back home. The entire time his faithful wife, Penelope, waited. She was beset by suitors who were actually living in her halls, demanding that she marry one of them, they even threatened after something like 10 years bodily harm, to overthrow her. Even her own son talked to her dismissively (this was after all 700 BC).

But she put them off by saying that she would marry one when she finished what she was weaving, I think it was a shroud for Odysseus can't remember, and every night she'd pull out the stitches. I think a serving girl gave her away on that and she was discovered. By this time Odysseus had returned in disguise. She herself did not recognize him and demanded proof, (he had changed a bit) the only one who recognized him was his old dog who had died, must have been pretty old he was away at war 10 years and then wandered 10 more I think, not sure.

At any rate they tricked the suitors and he killed all of them including the servant girl who had betrayed Penelope, who remained faithful to the end.

It was a hero's welcome home for Odysseus, in stark contrast to the one Agamemnon experienced when he came home at the hands of his wife.

That's the two classical allusions I saw in addition to the ones listed but they may not fit!

Hats: Re "He needed and wanted to know what happened to the people who had made up his life, especially his one love Penelope."

Didn't Julian already know what had happened to Penelope at the time he burned down the factory? Or am I getting my time mixed up?

Ginny: Thanks for the terrific info!

Marni,

I don't know. I might have my time mixed up. When I posted, I wondered about the timing too. My memory is so very short.

Ginny, thank you!

Ginny, thanks for the information about Penelope and about Julian the Apostate. It may be a stretch to connect them to the characters in the story, but it's interesting to see if there are any parallels.

Both Julians received Christian educations, and both cared greatly for writing and literature. Both had to remove themselves from their native countries, one for the sake of the empire, and the other to avoid those who would do him harm.

As for Penelope -- actually it was Julian Carax who was the faithful one, living only for when he was reunited with his Penelope. And when he found she had died, he began to murder her suitors -- the books he had written while in self-imposed exile. A stretch, for sure.

When Julian left for Paris, put on the train by Miquel, he did not know yet what had happened to Penelope. Julian was under the impression that Penelope would meet him later in Paris.

Did Julian learn about what had happened to Penelope during the time in Paris with Nuria or after he returned to Barcelona and stayed with Nuria??

Marni and Hats, I have that problem too, trying to keep the timeline straight. There are so many flash backs in this book. But do you think this story could have been told any other way? That chapters do follow along in chronological order and I'm glad the author dated them. At least that tells us when Daniel learned what he knew about Carax.

I think Julian intended to die in the fire, except did he really know for sure that all the books had been destroyed? Perhaps that was the impetus that made him survive. That and Nuria. It was while living with Nuria that he again started breaking into bookstores and burning books.

Some time ago someone referred to Nuria Montfort as the catalyst -- that she was the one who saved the last copies of Carax's books, including the one that Daniel found at the Cemetery of Lost Books. After reading her story, we know that she not only saved the books, she also saved Julian. She was a very strong person, a survivor. I wonder why the author had to have her die.

Hats, I missed your post above -- I was typing while you were posting. Julian leaned about Penelope after Miquel was killed by the policemen, having offered himself up as Julian. Julian and Nuria went to the old Aldaya mansion that night and that's when he found the tombstones of Penelope and the child.

What also, really, surprised me was learning that Penelope was Julian's sister! I almost dropped the book. I did drop the book and had to find my page again.

I wondered about a familial relationship between Julian and Penelope when the author began having Aldaya talk with Sophie Carax. This has happened in literature before, but I don't remember or know where or when. What really surprised me, like it also did Hats, was that Julian was Lain Coubert and the person burning the books.

In an interview above, Ruiz Zafon talks about the type of book he wanted to write. Here are a few of his words.

"I hope this is reading for those who love, really love, to read. I drew on the Dickensian model of creating a complex world populated by intriguing places, peculiar creatures, and infinite details at work. A good novel begins with a universe that should feel to the reader as real and fascinating, if not more so, than the one he inhabited before he picked up the book. This is a novel for those who love to lose themselves in that kind of universe."

In another part of the interview he talks about all the types of reading that affect his writing -- from classics to genres to mysteries, etc., and he says that it's hard to beat the 19th century novel writers. Do you see any touches of some of the "old masters" here?

I was the other way around. I thought from the beginning that Juliam was Lain Coubert and burning the books. But, I wasn't expecting Penelope to be his sister.

I got a little irritated when Daniel got Bea pregnant like Julian got Penelope pregnant. There were so many parallels between their lives and that was another one. I thought, Keep it in your pants or use birth control, for heaven's sake! Enough is enough.

I understand your frustration with Daniel, Marni. And while I've been reading, have been thinking, "well, you really can't blame the fathers for getting so angry." (I wonder how my son would react should such happen to his 15-year-old. Since she hasn't started dating yet, I wonder how he'll react to that.) But of course, nothing excuses what Aldaya did -- in essence, murder his daughter.

But we all know that many young women are harmed in certain parts of the world for much lesser transcressions. I remember one true horror story by a Saudi womam who told of a father who drowned his teen-ager in the family swimming pool because she went with some friends, just to flirt with boys.

I digress, sort of, but we do see if not a lot of inhumane treatment of women in this book, examples of women who are under the power of men and cannot change their situation. I'm not saying the author favors this, but does he speak out against it?

It is outrageous the treatment Penelope experienced from her own father. Locking her in that room, not caring about how she birthed the child. He murdered his own daughter and grandchild.

I think Zaifon uses these very visual and haunting scenes to makes his point about the awful way women were treated. His descriptions work far better than long, preachy chapters on the subject.

In the end Bea is happy with Daniel. I think this is Mr. Zaifon's desire for all the women.

Although Aldaya committed such an atrocity and shocked us readers, his was not the typical teenage problem to contend with. His daughter was not just his teenage pregnant daughter, but was bearing the child of his son. It was a case of incest which would have been much more shocking to anyone.

This may be a stretch of my imagination, but I see the "shadow of the wind" as a tree. Now in some cultures a tree is a symbol of life and as the tree branches spread they create a shadow on the ground. And to continue, this shadow may be the shadow of the wind rustling through the leaves of a tree - much as the same as we rustle through life itself.

I agree that after Julian finds out about Penelope's death he tries to destroy not only himself, but all books. I can't make up my mind if he were burned by accident or if he did that on purpose. Since Daniel had one of his books, I would think he would have wanted to stay alive long enough to get his hands on Daniel's book.

I'm not sure where in the book I read it but at some point I realized that Sophie (Julian's mother) was involved with Mr. Ayala. With everything else in the book that seemed to conviently be there when needed, I wasn't too surprised that Julian and Penelope were half-brother and sister. Why else would Mr. Ayala take such an interest in Julian? He didn't strike me as a man who would go out of his way to help Julian if the boy wasn't his own.

Yes, it is definitely a case of incest. Still, Don Ricardo Ayala's way of handling the problem seems almost barbaric. Although, I felt some surprise about the biological relationship between Penelope and Julian, I didn't think of the teenage pregnancy side of the situation. There was a bigger problem looming in the "shadows." I just couldn't put my finger on the embarrassing circumstances Don Ricardo really worried about, the fact that he had experienced an intimate relationship with his daughter's boyfriend's mother.

Even in this situation Don Ricardo didn't handle himself well. If I remember correctly, he took advantage of Sophie Carax. Why did he bring Julian to his home and put him school? He never came across as such an altruistic person. Did Don Ricardo help Julian in order to soothe his conscious? Then, his plan turned on him with the love affair between his daughter, Penelope and Julian.

Scrawler, that's another reason I feel that Julian Carax didn't want to die. He would have wanted to get his hands on Daniel's book, Shadow of the Wind.

The change in Mr. Fortuny is also another shocking incident in the book. He really hated Julian. Then, he truly began to experience compassion and love for Julian. Mr. Fortuny made an about turn in his feelings, from hate to love. I am not sure why he made the change. I remember the many crosses in Mr. Fortuny's room. Maybe his religion helped him to work through his feelings.

Human nature is so complex. At the same time, Fumero never did change. How horrible to think nothing or no one ever entered his life to make him learn to love. I think Fumero's character is frightening not only because of the horrors acted out in his life but also because of all that hate inside of him for humankind never died. He could love spiders but not people.

"Sophie has only to exchange one look with Don Ricardo Aldaya to know she was doomed. Aldaya had wofish eyes, hungry, and sharp, the eyes of a man who knew where and when to strike. He kissed her hand slowly, carressing her knuckles with his lips. Just as the hatter exuded kindness and warmth, Don Ricardo radiated cruelty and power. His canine smile made it clear that he could read her thoughts and desires and found them laughable. Sophie felt for him that species of contempt that is awakened in us by the things we most desire without knowing it. She immediately told herself she would not see him again, would stop teaching her favorite pupil if that was what it took to avoid any future encounters with Ricardo Aldaya. Nothing had ever terrified her so much as sensing that animality under her own skin, the prey's instinctive recognition of her predator, dressed in elegant linen. It took her only a few seconds to make up a flimsy excuse for leaving the room..."

"A week later Sophie saw Don Ricardo Aldaya waiting for her at the entrance of the music school on Calle Diputacion, smoking and leafing through a newspaper. They exchanged glances, and without saying a word, he led her to a buiding two blocks away..."

Which man do you think is more dangerous - Aldaya or Fumero? They are both cruel but in different ways and both men get what they want. Sophie says:"...only to exchange one look with Don Ricardo Alayda to know she was doomed." Did Sophie have a chance against Alayda anymore than Nuria had a chance against Fumero?

"Just as the hatter exuded kindness and warmth, Don Ricardo Aldaya radiated cruelty and power." That statement could also be true of Fumero. Can power and/or money or both buy or get anything you want? What could Sophie or Nuria have done differently to avoid the Aldayas and Fumeros of the world?

Who's the more dangerous -- Aldaya or Fumero? Both evil, in that they use their power to get what they want.But Aldaya is weaker, and is more concerned with only his needs. Fumero's hatred is blind and unreasonable, too totally dedicated. He's the more dangerous.

Hats, I think Fortuny was a victim of his upbringing. He knew hats and he knew the his catechism. He was an innocent as far as intimacy was concerned, and because he'd seen his father hit his mother, he thought it the acceptable normal practice. When Sophie, his wife tried to seduce him into making love, he was horrified and thought she came from the devil. I don't know why or how he came to change his feelings towards Julian, from those of derision, to those of love and acceptance. Maybe because he had lost everything else -- his wife, his customers, his shop and Julian was the only one left he could latch on to.

As for Fumero, he didn't stand a chance. No one is born hating, but with a mother who would just as soon seduce him and cared about him only as a means to an end, and living surrounded by the sons of city fathers who ridiculed and looked down upon him. And then he sees Julian possess the only thing he's ever wanted -- Penelope. He was doomed from the start. Understandable, but not excusable.

Scrawler, that's an interesting perception, about the shadow of the wind rustling through the leaves of the tree -- as we rustle through life. In Wisconsin, where there has been some heated discussion and argument concerning wind turbines, they talk about the "shadow of the wind" creating a flicker of light. Does a shadow signify darkness or light to you. Yes, it's dark in the shadows, but we can't have shadows without light, otherwise you'd have total darkness. Does that make sense?

In the beginning, Daniel started on a quest -- to find more books about Julian Carax, and to find out more about Julian himself. He only heard things about Julian, but never saw Julian himself -- until the end of the book. Is this beginning to translate into a shadow of the wind.

And while we're debating this, who do you think is the protagonist -- Julian or Daniel?

Re: "Who do you think is the protagonist -- Julian or Daniel?"

That's a good question!! I'm still wondering who is shadowing who? Is Daniel shadowing Julian? Or is Julian shadowing Daniel? Or are they both shadowing each other?

We hear the stories of both of these boys/men, through their own eyes and through the eyes of others. Their lives parallel each other in many ways.

There can be multiple protagonists in a story. Maybe they are both protagonists.

Here's a definition of protagonist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagonist

Marni

I've been gone all day, and could not log on to SeniorNet this evening -- don't know why, some people could.

Marni, thanks for the link about the protagonist. I'm torn, first thinking JUlian, but the next minute saying it could apply to Daniel, too. Daniel is definitely the narrator, but a narrator can also be a protagonist. I think we have two main characters, two people around whom the action centers. They are shadowing, as you say, each other -- so we have an unbroken link there, a circle.

And it's late and I'm rambling, and have to get up before dawn to drive a friend to St. Louis tomorrow morning. Back tomorrow night.

Marni,

Along with Pedln I would like to say thank you for the link about the protagonist.I am going to bookmark this link. I am undecided who is the protagonist. This is why I didn't want to touch this question. The question spooked me.

Before learning so much from Marni's post and the link I had decided to choose Julian Carax. I thought of the whole book as Julian's story. Daniel wanted to discover all he could about Julian and his life.

Daniel with Fermi's help did a fantastic job of detective work. Daniel started with a book, Shadow of the Wind. With the book he had a strong determination, an ability to listen and a caring heart. Because Daniel worked so hard and so well I felt like Julian's face became Daniel's face. I ate and slept thinking about the whereabouts of Julian, who knew Julian, what did Julian look like, was Julian still alive or writing, etc.

In the end it's like the lights came on again in the theatre of my mind. I could see Daniel again. I began to care again about his relationship with Bea. Then, when Julian left Daniel's hospital bedside, I could see the whole face of Daniel again. My mind began to scream "What's going to happen to Daniel and Bea?"

Finally, when Daniel has his own son, I could see the underlying story or another story. What happens to Daniel after his work with Julian is done? It's like Daniel had worked hard on a biography. Now the biography is finished. He could start on another project for awhile, his life, his autobiography. Julian's walking away gives Daniel the permission to move on.

So, before Marni added to my literary knowledge I would have picked Julian as the protagonist.

Marni, thank you for all of the links you provided about the Spanish Civil War, etc.

Pedln and Scrawler, thank you for helping me to see more than I ever would have noticed, all the symbolism and deeper meanings which went straight over my head like a ball.

Scrawler, If I am not mistaken, I have read you are a writer. You certainly proved it here. Your writing is beautiful!

Yes, I am a writer, at the moment I'm working on an alternate history trilogy of the Lincoln assassination. I figure at the rate I'm going it will take me the rest of my life to accomplish, but to me it is the journey that counts the most.

"A main character needs three attributes: 1)A need or want -to win the heart of his or her one true love 2)A strong point: courage, love generosity - some personality trait that confers on him the potential for triumph 3)A fatal flow: fear, greed, laziness, gullibility - some trait that, unless overcome, may lead to the character's downfall." ~ "Novel Writing"

Both Daniel and Julian have a need - to win the heart of their one true love. Daniel has courage and he has love. You could also make a strong case that Julian has love as well - at least for Penelope.

Daniel also is gullibile. (Remember he believed what Nuria Monfort said and also what Fermin tells him). But even if Daniel is gullibile is this something he has to overcome before he wins the heart of his true love. What is being gullibile mean? In Daniel's case I think he has to stop listening to everybody and make his own decisions.

What are Julian's fatal flows? After he loses Penelope it is as if he no longer believes in anyone or anything. Perhaps you can say that Julian is Daniel's opposite. But it is finding true love for both men and in Julian's case loving once again that bring them to a conclusion.

Finally, Fumero is Julian's murderous nemesis, and years later, Daniel's. So in conclusion with all this doubling of searcher and searched for I think we have two main characters which come from two different directions and finally come together in the end in a dramatic conclusion when they both pit themselves as a team against their nemesis, Fumero.

"...Bea says that the art of reading is slowly dying, that it's an intimate ritual, that a book is a mirror that offers us only what we already carry inside us, that when we read, we do it with all our heart and mind, and great readers are becoming more scarce by the day..." (p.484)

What do you say all, is "reading" slowly dying? I know since I've joined SeniorNet I've enjoyed many books that I probably would never have read. Reading to be sure is an "intimate ritual" but the discussion of the book takes on a virtual banquet. We each bring his/her own interruptions. But through our discussions we not only carry what is inside each of us, but also what others brings feel. And like this book "The Shadow of the Wind" with all its different genres, our discussions are liken to a large kettle in which is stirred all our thoughts and conclusions. I for one have enjoyed this discussion immensely and hope to see you all soon in another group. Thanks for the memories.

Hats, your writing is beautiful, too. I love the way you say things, as for example, "Julian's walking away gives Daniel permission to move on." That says so much. The boy, the young man, has completed his quest. He is now a man and is free to persue the duties of a man. Also, I've been quickly scanning all the posts from the beginning of our discussion, and earlier this week, Hats, you made a really good point about Ruiz Zafon's style. The question was asked if the author spoke out against the negetive treatment of the women in the book, and you said

"I think Zaifon uses these very visual and haunting scenes to makes his point about the awful way women were treated. His descriptions work far better than long, preachy chapters on the subject. "

Right on. And when you think about the book as a whole, so much of it is made up of very visual scenes.

Scrawler, I'm glad you brought up Bea's comment on reading. That's a pretty loaded statement and here's my take -- I disagree that it is reading is slowly dying, I don't think it will ever die. Yes, it is intimate, but I think a book is more than a mirror that offers only what we carry inside. We do note the parallels in our reading, with those in our lives, but we also note the differences which help us shape new ideas.

What think the rest of you, and what is the author telling us about books and reading?

I think that some people read less today than they might have, say, in the early 20th century because they watch television. On the other hand, books are much more readily available today than every before, cheap to buy comparatively, and available through the many public libraries that exist today. Also, today many people read books on the internet. There are more sources to read from today.

In past generations, there might have been no TV to distract readers. But, often books were either rare or expensive or not available at all. In past centuries, not as many people were as educated as are today and didn't know how to read.

So, I guess it's all in how you look at it.

Marni

I think the art of reading will never die. Each new generation will bring a new group of readers to libraries, bookstores and home libraries. Ruiz Zafon made us feel, through the pages of Shadow of the Wind, the power of a book. This magical, supernatural power will never die.

Certain children and adults will never find complete satisfaction in movies and tv. The pages of books will draw and magnetize their eyes. Like Pedln wrote the readers will find "new ideas" in these books. Each "new idea" will make their eyes hunger for more words in books.

Books have done this for me. Books have made me a new person. I think after his adventurous trek Daniel became a different person. It's impossible to read a book and come away as the same person. Whether for good or bad the mind will become newly shaped.

Marni is right too. Books, such a precious commodity, are far cheaper than in past years. This also will help books to remain a part of our lives.

Ginny recommended a book titled Scribes and Illuminators by Christopher De Hamel. It is really helping me appreciate how some manuscripts were produced. Back in those years mass production of a book was unknown. Our world is so different. Book are published quickly and at low cost.

Scrawler, thank you for Bea's comment about reading. I have thought of reading as an art form but never as a "ritual." If the discussion were going on, I would ask how is reading a "ritual."

Thank you Pedln and Alf for being helpful and welcoming discussion leaders. I have enjoyed this discussion so much. I have read the links time and again.

Ritual is another word for rite and rite is a ceremonial action. In other words, every time you read you learn something or are enlightened. Even if you read for pleasure you receive a certain fulfillment that you don't get for example from going to the grocery store. You can gain knowledge from watching PBS or going to a movie, but in those cases the knowledge is compressed into 1/2 to 2 hours. To me reading is almost a spiritual experience. You can savor the thoughts within the page much as you would a good dinner.

Thanks to one and all for a very exciting and fulfilling discussion.

Thank you, Scrawler for a definition. I had never seen the words reading and ritual mentioned together. I see reading as a ritual in my life too. It is a ritual because I do it daily. It is also a ritual because I have particular places where I like to read. These places offer me quiet and comfort and good lighting. In these places I do "savour the thoughts" from my books. Reading does take a certain amount of meditation. Some books make you digest and redigest your thoughts more than others.

I am looking forward to our next reading ritual together. See you soon.

Marni, a good point comparing the reading of yesteryear with its limitations with the reading of today, with all its distractions and competitions. There was a time when one didn't have to know how to read in order to survive, but I don't think that's true today for those living in an educated society. Life is very restricted for non-readers.

But I wonder how one defines a great reader. Scrawler pointed out Bea's comment that "great readers are becoming more scarce by the day." I would like to think that the term includes people like us here at SeniorNet. Not so much with discernment as we come from many different backgrounds and levels of reading, but I think we're all great readers because we love it and we seek it.

Scrawler, fantastic, reading as ritual -- "everytime you read you are enlightened." Even when we don't realize it.

This has been a wonderful discussion and I want to thank ALL of you, everyone who has participated here, your contributions have been so appreciated and have really made this discussion most worthwhile. Many special thanks to Alf (Andy) for getting us started and in the right direction, and to Ginny, who has more than a dozen fires going at once, and still finds time to come and share her views and knowledge with us. We really liked seeing your lovely manuscript pages. And to the three stalwarts, Marni, Hats, and Scrawler, thank you, thank you, thank you, for your background links, your perceptive comments and for keeping this forum flowing along.

Scrawler, one can tell you're a writer and maybe one day we'll be reading your work here. Good luck with the Lincoln trilogy.

In the meantime, like Hats," I am looking forward to our next reading ritual together" too. This has been a great one.