The only copy of 13th tale nearby is checked out..and not due back until the 9th. I have my older daughter checking the library near her apt. If they have it, I should have it in my hands by Sunday. Keeping my fingers crossed. (very awkward typing like that)

Babi

We do seem to have the classic elements of a Gothic novel. A an innocent heroine, a woman of mysterious origin, twins, no murder, but violent behavior, mention of a fire to come. I'm sure I missed some.

I will try to behave myself and keep on schedule for this.

Juanita Millican

Juanita

I prefer fiction to non-fiction. I read very few non-fiction books, less than five per year.

I have not heard of, let alone read, Castle of Otranto, Lady Audley's Secret, or Spectral Bride, so I did a little research.

This is from the Wikipedia entry for The Castle of Otranto: The Castle of Otranto is a 1764 novel by Horace Walpole. It is generally held to be the first gothic novel, initiating a literary genre which would become extremely popular in the later 18th century and early 19th century. Thus, Castle, and Walpole by extension is arguably the forerunner to such authors as Ann Radcliffe, Bram Stoker, Daphne du Maurier, and Stephen King.

This is from the publisher of Lady Audley’s Secret: Murder, mystery, mistaken identity, madness, bigamy, adultery: These were the special ingredients that made the sensation novel so delectable to the Victorian palate. Readers who devoured Lady Audley's Secret were thrilled and frightened by its inversion of the ideal Victorian heroine. Lady Audley looks like the angel-in-the-house ideal of Victorian womanhood-she is blonde, fragile, and childlike-but her behavior is distinctly villainous. At a time when Victorian women were beginning to rebel against their limited roles as wives and mothers, novels such as Lady Audley's Secret spoke to their secret longings and fantasies. (I think this one is on my to-be-red list now!)

This is from the Wikipedia article of the author of Spectral Bride: Margaret Gabrielle Long, (1 November 1885 on Hayling Island, Hampshire - 23 December 1952) was a novelist and writer. She wrote under the pseudonyms Marjorie Bowen, Joseph Shearing, George Preedy, John Winch, Robert Paye and Margaret Campbell. As Joseph Shearing, she wrote several sinister gothic romances full of terror and mystery.

I am guessing that we will see many of these themes and elements in The Thirteenth Tale.

Also, The Thirteenth Tale is about secrets. I just finished a book titled The Memory Keeper’s Daughter, which is also about secrets and their effect on people’s lives. Coincidently, I just read an article in O, The Oprah Magazine, about secrets. I plan to share some of it with the B&N group reading The Memory Keeper’s Daughter, but I think it also applies to The Thirteenth Tale. Here are a couple of excerpts:

“…even a relatively minor lie … exerts a powerful gravitational force on the liar, whose attention is focused on not talking about what they’ve done. Secret keepers may become uncommunicative, withdraw from others, exhibit strange moods, even isolate themselves completely.” “Secret keeping is immensely stressful; it has well-documented effects on things like immune function and even longevity.” “If you’re holding a malignant secret, you may feel as though other aspects of your life are being pulled down into darkness.” “After decades of silence, the secret will dominate the center of their consciousness, dimming their capacity for openness and intimacy.”

I am guessing that we will see some of these effects on the characters in The Thirteenth Tale.

Good Morning!
Having read this wonderful book when it first came out, I'll try very, very hard to participate without any hint of what is upcoming. To all of you just starting, enjoy guessing where this plot is heading ...

I love non-fiction, but these days find I prefer to read fiction late in the evening, to settle down and not doze off too early. Also, historical fiction is now my favorite; after years of reading contemporary mysteries, they don't hold
my attention very well.
I wouldn't attempt to give a count of how many books I read of each, since my rate of reading varies
so much with the author and type of book.

JoanP... looking forward to another great month with you!

This selection particularly interests me just to find out why this genre attracts so many readers. I have completed Thirteen Moons by Charles Frazier, leisurely and more my style. This souds like a real change of pace. Will try to set aside time to read and respond. I enjoy everyone's entries. Bern

I can understand preferring to write biography tho' reading fiction/mysteries. Some people, (like me) feel very unimaginative when it comes to thinking up plots, but have no problem assembling facts or telling someone else's story. I had a friend who came up with all sorts of stories in her head, but couldn't write them. No wonder I admire an excellent writer so much.

Babi

I like both fiction and non-fiction, but thinking about it, I read a lot more fiction. Some of it's light, though, like mysteries and sci-fi.

So far, for me, The Thirteenth Tale has more of the tone of a fairy tale than a Gothic story, but I expect the Gothic component will increase.

I bought a copy of The Castle of Otranto on Amazon.

Just checked -- they also have The Spectral Bride.

Fell asleep before getting page 115. I will be so happy when my bipap arrives and I am used to wearing it. Almost there so I can pass on my thoughts so far.

When reading the first chapter I wished I had had a highlighter in my hand so I could mark some of the great, to me at least, thoughts on books and the written word. In a review about The Thirteenth Tale, the reviewer suggested it to lovers of books and reading. The first chapter carries that out, but will the rest of the book?

I am loving reading this tale of a woman of undetermined age 'interviewing', really taking notes, for the writing of a living person's biography. When I wrote a column for a senior publication it was all from interviews of noteworthy senior people in the publication area. I took a tape recorder with me to help me be accurate. Margaret Lea doesn't have one so it has to be set before many things we take for granted were invented. No phone to summon Lea. However, it is set after the invention of electric lights.

It is seldom that from the outset, I have been swept up so quickly into the language and style of a particular writer, fact or fiction. I found myself moving so swiftly, I had to consciously pause frequently to catch more then the surface of what is being written.

Setterfield’s distinction between storytelling and truth is so true. The language of truth just lies there waiting for someone to breath life into it. Is this, in a nutshell, what the writer is saying? I think so, and Setterfield gives us a hint of this in her interview. Yes, Readers are “fools” when they believe all writing can be autobiographical. Readers, then, are wise fools, who discover their own autobiography in the act of reading itself.

I don't see any particular fairy tale here--it is the tone of the story which screams "fairy tale" to me. The closest modern equivalent (in tone, not content) I can think of offhand is A. S. Byatt's "The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye", with maybe Goldman's "The Princess Bride" as a second. Scrawler would probably be able to tell us what elements are involved, but I am not that knowledgeable. All I know is that, to me, it quacks like a duck so I think it's a duck.

bmcinnis: you say "It is seldom that from the outset, I have been swept up so quickly into the language and style of a particular writer, fact or fiction." I absolutely agree. The book caught me in a vise, the same way that Margaret gets caught up in Vida's books.

Ooops, I forgot a telling bit of fairy tale--the rule of three. Vida can't lie to Margaret because she has asked for three facts. Like the three trials, the three wishes, etc, she is bound by three. and, as always, the third has the catch in it.

Yes the 'rule of three' is an element in many fairy tales. It will be interesting to see how many more fairy tale elements are used in this tale.

LauraD I am delighted you are also a fan of Wikipedia. Even though the site has been accused of "not telling the whole truth" in some of its entries, this does not prevent readers from enjoying a good source of readable and convincing info for more casual reading.

Your mention of "The Memory Keeper’s Daughter, which is also about secrets and their effect on people’s lives,"caught my eye immediately when I read in our book selection about a secret that was hidden from Margaret seemingly deep in her unconscious and its effects upon her when this inner secret is revealed at this paraticular time and place. Now, these circumstances certainly keep the reader impatient for what comes next. (Bern)

Well I got to page 115 last night. I am not familiar when we can move to the next set of pages. Can you tell I am chomping on the bit to go forward with the book?

The novel has to take place in the 1900s, probably the second half. Vida is described by reviewers as "our century's Dickens". This would imply that at least most of her work was done in a later century than Dickens, who died in 1870. Her works were written over 56 years, so that puts us a fair way into the 1900s. When Isabelle is taken to the asylum, it is in a horse-drawn brougham, so that must be somewhat early in the century, or even in the late 1800s. Vida's chauffeur drives an automobile. Margaret's father makes business trips to other parts of the world, but is rarely gone more than 48 hours. That suggests air travel, though you could probably get to a lot of Europe by train in 24 hours.

Folks,I'm, in LA,CA visiting my daughter for the next 2 weeks. I started this book on the plane travelling here and have finished it.. it does not preclude me from taking part in the discussions I would hope... I was not keen on the Woman in White and although the production of Jane Eyre was cast with suitable actors and the costumes and scenery well chosen....been there, done that.. The 13th Tale was the kind of book i did not want to put down, it reminded me a lot of the Lesley Pearse books I've read from England,many twists & turns...Back later Colkots/Collette

Well, I have just finished the first 100 pages of this book and must put it down for a spell. What a terrific read, I am enthralled with this story.
What is the parallel between VW's story and Margaret's story? It is both a story about twins, about silences being kept over the years; about the sacristy of libraries and about writing and the love of reading.

Where to start! What a horrible little boy that Charlie was as a child in Anglefield. Does this mean that there was an Anglefield village, as well as the house and family unit? I'm confused on that part. Is there a connotation of something more perverse than a brotherly/sisterly love going on between Charlie and Isabelle?


How dreadful that two children can be overindulged and still neglected at the same time. Every child needs boundaries as the Missus well knows.
I love this sentence. "Families are like webs. It is impossible to touch one part without the rest vibrating."

Lord have mercy these twins are like Yin and Yang; one full of benevolence and the other a hurtful, wicked child.

Could it have been Adeline who bopped the doctors wife on the head? What is with this figure in white? How old were the twins at this point?

I am anxious to get back to my book after dinner time.

Alf, I think it must have been Adeline who bopped the doctor's wife. A big point is made of the fact that Mrs. Maudsley doesn't really remember the appearance of the woman that well, and only makes her identification on the basis of the green eyes, which of course the twins have too.

But the age of the twins is a problem. Adeline had been small enough to fit into a perambulator, maybe curled up, so how could she be tall enough to confuse Mrs. Maudsley into thinking she was an adult? Maybe it was a bit confusing, since the figure rose up from lying on the chaise lounge, there was very little time to get a good look, and Mrs. Maudsley was slightly concussed.

I'm sure everyone who was reading "Woman in White" noticed the similarity of the scene in which Isabelle is committed to the asylum to a corresponding scene in Collins' book.

What does everybody think about the premise of VW's "compost heap" to rot long enough to create a novel?

I keep wondering if someone (anyone) asked me to give them 3 honest answers to 3 pertinent questions before my wish was granted-- would I agree. Oh dear! Remember an honest person expects honest answers.

I used to read mainly non-fiction but took a class in literature at local college and have taken part in SeniorNet and New York Times book discussions (mainly lurking) and have become hooked on fiction. Have always liked mysteries. But now have been reading early English novels. In the room in the college library where we have book discussions they have a set of the old 19th century English magazines which had many serialized novels in them. Remember reading an article submitted by a man who was thrilled that someone had nailed boards to the lamp posts giving the names of the streets and wondered if it would catch on!

Have read Snow -- Have just started Thirteenth Tale.

“I caught a flash of the feverish impatience of the reader. . “

“How did she, the speaker in this story know that I , the reader” would respond in such a way to the words about “The thirteenth tale…”. Now, I know I’m hooked when I begin to become one of the tale’s unseen characters. Now, this is a level of reader participation which surprises me who usually responds like an outsider looking in. This experience may sound as strange as the story itself, but it makes me realize how involved a reader can become with the characters and speaker in fiction. Is this a level of “truth where we begin examine in ourselves along with the characters? Bern

Joan asked, “Is the reason you are guessing we will find themes and elements of mid 19th century tales because it is Margaret who tells the tale and this is her story?” (Castle of Otranto, Lady Audley's Secret, or Spectral Bride)

No, these are books of Vida Winters,’ so I think Vida Winters’ story will be like the books she likes.

We do get Margaret’s story in the book too. However, since we learn Margaret’s story while she is writing Vida’s story, I think of Margaret’s as secondary.

The three books from Vida’s library are available for purchase.

From time to time, I will post pertinent information from the Barnes and Noble on-line discussion of The Thirteenth Tale, with Diane Setterfield. Here are two:

"You cannot imagine how pleased I feel when people let me know that they enjoy not only the story (plot, characterisation, mystery, suspense etc) but the writing itself. My own feeling as a reader is that too often I have loved a story and felt let down by the writing itself or conversely, have loved the writing but been left hungry for story. The plain fact is I love both good writing and a good story, and the books that please me most are those that make me want to read fast (to find out what happens next) and slowly (to relish the sentences) at once. I love the tension that this produces in the reading experience. So of course, when I came to write a book myself I wanted it to come as close to this as possible."

"I just love hearing stories like this about how people come to read the book. What makes me smile about this one is that I so recognise that phenomenon whereby nothing is more likely to make you desperate to read a book than the fact it isn't yours! How many times have I been on a train, watching some stranger lost in a novel, and had to repress the urge to snatch the book from their hands to see what it is that is having such an effect on them! I remember that it was my sister who read Wilkie Collins' The Woman in White first, and I had to wait while she finished it before I could get my hands on it. It was excrutiating, even though she is a really fast reader and I only had to wait two days. It was all worth it though for the discussions we had afterwards. And we've both been big fans of Wilkie Collins ever since."

Thank you LauraD for that exerpt from our author. I know that feeling of rushing thru one chapter anxious to find out "what happens next." In subsequent chapters we slowly absorb every word and sentence that grabs our heart strings. A tru sign of a good book, for me.

Is anyone here a twin? What an extraordinary relationship they share. I have never known twins so I can't testify to the veracity of this relationship but I know with sisters that are close, they often share this experience of "twinness." I never had a sister myself and can not imagine this yin/yang relationship.

I love the way that we are progressing into Margaret's very own tale. Do you think that VW knew that Margaret was a twin prior to asking her to write her memoirs?

There is so much to talk about here. What did you think of Isabelle being committed to the lunatic asylum? Do you think she was the one who did that dastardly deed?

John the dig leaves a bit to be desired. Will he shape up as a character as we progress?

I used to be very proud of the fact that I was an excellent secret "keeper." Now I am the one to tell your secret to - because I will have forgotten your secret within the hour.

Is Margaret the lead or a secondary character? LauraD, I think Margaret loves those 19th century tales as much as Vida Winters did. That's why she was happy to find them in her library. Do you think Diane Setterfield has more than one story going at the same time, with the young Vida and Margaret the "heroines" in each? Don't the heroines of gothic romances have to be "young"?

Andy points out they both lost a twin and they each have secret. Margaret's secret is tantalizing. It must be more than meets the eye. Vida Winter's secret is slowly, ever so slowly coming forth in the story she is spilling out to Margaret. But Margaret? She guards her secret - and it is haunting her. What's the secret? That she knows she is a surviving twin and that her parents are keeping this a secret from her? Margaret seems to hold this against her mother - but gets along just fine with her father. Doesn't there have to be more to this story?

I can see that Vida's secret will be a douzy - and very painful for her to tell. But she knows her days are limited - and feels the need for a confession. But Margaret? A twin lost at childbirth - why is she haunted by this loss? She seems to have felt it - even before she discovered those birth certificates!

"Do you think that VW knew that Margaret was a twin prior to asking her to write her memoirs? (Andy) The fact that Vida Winter got Margaret to come back to the library when she walked out by promising a story about twins - could be explained if she knew for a fact that Margaret was a twin - but Andy, think of the implications here! To know something about Margaret that only Margaret's parents know...oh my, think of what that means for this story!

We have a bookstore and two libraries in this story - the one at Angelfield and the one at Vida Winter's home in Yorkshire. (Yes, as I understand it, the family is the Angelfield family, the house is called Angelfield and so is the town.

Do you think the mysteries, the secrets will be found in one of these libraries? This reminds me - You might get a kick out of The Thirteenth Tale homepage if you haven't seen this. (Don't read all the links, though - there are spoilers.)

The Yorkshire setting: the thing that comes to my mind about Yorkshire is the Bronte sisters. They were raised in a remote parsonage in Yorkshire. It was not such a dysfunctional situation as Vida/Adeline and her sister; I think they went to school at least for a while, and their father was a normal member of society, but they led a kind of inward life, writing many imaginary stories to each other, gradually refining them as they grew older, and eventually turning them into their novels and poetry. I thought of them a lot while reading about Vida's childhood. I want to say that "Jane Eyre" or "Wuthering Heights" takes place in Yorkshire, but in my copy of "Jane Eyre" the county of Thorncroft Hall is only called ____shire, and I haven't figured out where "Wuthering Heights" takes place.

I think Limmeridge House in "The Woman in White" is in Cumberland, also in the north, and I think "The Moonstone" is set in Yorkshire.

Did VW know that Margaret was a twin prior to asking her to write the memoirs? She couldn't have known about Margaret's dead twin, but she picked Margaret "Because of your work on the Landier brothers. Because you know about siblings." The Landiers were twins. She must have picked up a resonant note in the work.

Joan said, “I think Margaret loves those 19th century tales as much as Vida Winters did. That's why she was happy to find them in her library.” You are right. Did you see the list of Margaret’s favorite books on The Thirteenth Tale website? I printed out a copy as a reading list for myself, and sure enough, Lady Audley’s Secret and The Castle of Otranto are on it, but not Spectral Bride.

I do think there are two stories, with two heroines, in this book.

I don’t blame Margaret for leaving to go check some facts before continuing to record Vida’s story. Vida has created an atmosphere of mystery and secrecy, which, I think, leads Margaret to be distrustful of Vida.

Alf, you ask if any of us are twins. As many of you know, I am the twin sister of JoanK, another SeniorNetter. I'll try to add my perspective, but don't know how helpful it will be. We are fraternal, and somewhat different in personality. For us, it was essentially like anyone having a very close, very good, relationship with a sister.

I don't really know how different it is being a twin, because I've never not been one. Here is a question for you: What's it like not being a twin?

I do have some thoughts, though, and I'll try to make them coherent, then post them.

You’re right Joan, there has to be more to this well kept “twin” secret, that Margaret holds so near yet so far.

Isabelle was about the furthest thing going as far a mother is concerned. She was wretchd. She didn’t care for her twin girls nor did she care much for anyone but Isabelle. What made her like that? Was it because her father doted so on her when she was young? Because Charlie danced to her tune at any given moment? How on earth do people become like that? Is it a bad seed?

Joan- “ I find myself thinking of secrets I never thought to reveal to anyone. But if I were about to breathe my last breath, would I feel the need to tell? There is something about Vida Winter's situation that I find compelling. She is having such a hard time getting to the truth - because there is so much that needs to be explained first before she can get to her part in it. And she doesn't have much time left.”


I feel very touched by Ms. Winter and her compulsion to get this story told as quickly as she can. Her time is running out & she has the need to reveal the background of all of these incorrigible people as expediciously as possible. They are the essence of her tale. How could we understand what she is telling us if we haven’t been privy to the history of the family?

Oh yes, Pat H. “The Landier twins.” I had forgotten about that, thank you. I didn’t realize that you were JoanK’s twin. What an interesting question you posed.

“I don't really know how different it is being a twin, because I've never not been one. Here is a question for you: What's it like not being a twin?"
I honestly have never given that a thought. I’ve never had a sister and have always craved a close relationship with women. Perhaps that is the loss that I feel, whereas you have always had that void filled.

And there's a lemon tree outside in the front yard loaded with the biggest fruit I've ever seen on such a small tree. I promise not to give away any secrets...and yes of course Jane Eyre gives us the atmosphere of this book very well indeed. What is most interesting to me is the way this book draws the reader in and makes us want to find out more in all its aspects. As you can guess I am re-reading, (even though I'm in another group which meets physically on Monday nights in Chicago,to be prepared when I return) and been fascinated again by the premise. Good stuff..Collette

I like this book. Which is a surprise to me, because I've never really enjoyed mysteries or gothics. I am feeling impatient with Margaret Lea's obedience to Vera Winters's demands about not asking questions and not jumping ahead.

The violin attack by the woman in white took me by surprise, and I still can't quite figure out what it was doing there in the middle of the story. Somehow, it doesn't seem very important to me, because it doesn't seem "real."

What's it like to be a twin or to not be a twin? One of my sisters and I grew up believing that we were meant to be twins. When that sister was very ill, my blood was tissue-typed for a potential bone marrow donation. The doctors asked my sister why she never revealed the existence of her identical twin, but we were born 15 months apart. ~JudyS

Judy, then you know that closeness doesn't depend on actual twin-ness.

Alf, you have put your finger on it. I think that twins serve as an imaginative focus for some fairly universal feelings of loss, loneliness, and incompleteness. The twin is your "other self", the perfect friend who would understand you, make you complete, either be like you or fill in the empty spaces, like ying and yan. Whether in real life twin-ness is anything like that depends on the twins.

So far, the book isn't just about being twins, it's about losing a twin as a symbol of loss. Margaret never knew her sister, but when she learns of her, there is the answer to all her confused feelings. Vida did know her twin--they were unnaturally close. I'm eager to find out their further life together, and what Vida does when she loses Emmeline.

Of course, loss isn't the only thing the book is about.

Joan She has my compassion, that is for sure.

I wish that I could be a bit more tolerant of Margaret. Yes, she found out that a twin of her was born. OK, if she is so close to her dad all of the time, why doesn't she just ask? He knows she is uncomfortable around the mother, so-- why doesn't he just spill the beans. Let it all hang out, put the cards on the table? I don't care how reticent Margaret is she's had this secret since she was ten, hasn't she? She's an adult now! Silence is another theme that prevails throughout thus far, isn't it? Silence where all the demons live. Even Margaret's mother either is silent or chattering on endlessly to keep the "silence at bay." Silence can be brutal to those who must suffer thrugh it. The soundlessness isn't as painful as the lack of communication with those around you. There are many loud voices heard in a subdued, suppressed silence.

At this point in the story, I am more sympathetic towards Margaret. We don’t know enough of either Margaret’s or Vida’s stories for me to base my opinion on their histories. Consequently, I am basing my opinion more on their current positions and situations.

I can see that there are two individuals and two secrets here, but is the secret what the writer wants us to focus on at this point in the story? For me I feel completely immersed in the present happenings of both Margaret and Vida themselves. I find myself becoming impatient to find out what is happening to one when reading about the other. I think the subtleties behind the What and Why of the secrets are a device to keep us reading on.

In response to “would I feel the need to tell?” For myself, I would probably ask myself first, “Who cares to know? Would revealing it make a difference?” These are the questions I ask about the revelation of these two secrets. How would the revealing of these secrets later on make a difference to the story now??? I am so caught up in what’s going on, I could care less. Am I wrong?

PatH, when I read your entry, my question was partially answered. The twins are there because of the difference this makes symbolically to the reader?

ALF, I feel the same way about Margaret. Why didn’t she discuss this with her parents. They are the only ones who know the Truth. Is she really looking for an answer or does she, for some reason want to hold on the secret itself instead of actively seeking out an answer? Is this a device of the author?

bmcinnis- I do believe that this is a literary device by the author. Are both characters central to the plot here?
We are continually following around these two characters either identifying with them or criticising them. She sure knows how to spin a yarn, doesn't she? Each new chapter describes a reaction and interactions of both characters.

I do feel bad for Margaret but she is so wishy-washy I can't take to her character. She is kind in the way that she reacts to others so I am anxiously waiting for her future development.

Bmcinnis asked, “Why didn’t she discuss this with her parents. They are the only ones who know the Truth. Is she really looking for an answer or does she, for some reason want to hold on the secret itself instead of actively seeking out an answer?”

I think Margaret has learned that the subject of her twin is taboo. Her mother avoids the subject at all costs. Her father plays along with the avoidance. Margaret is just behaving as her family has taught her to behave with regards to this issue. It is not uncommon for families to completely ignore significant events in their pasts.

Joan, I don’t thing the Angelfield twins could be identical twins, or they would be the same sex, right? But I do think twinness plays a huge rule in this book. I guess I’m of the persuasion that being a twin is something very special and very unusual indeed. I imagine (or perhaps just prefer to believe) that twins have a more intense, more spiritual connection to each other than other siblings might. Maybe that’s a somewhat unrealistic or romantic way to look at it.

I also have the feeling that Vida Winters has something very serious that she needs to confess. She is so imperious, so bossy, so high up on a pedestal of her own devising, despite being old and ill and somewhat desperate to get her story told. And she seems to be so unkind.

What terrible mothers both Vida and Margaret had! I agree with Alf that Margaret seems to be a little wishy washy – but not always.

The descriptions are marvelous mood setters! Vida’s long, low house “crouching” as Margaret arrived there for the first time really struck me. ~JudyS P.S. Interesting question on the timeframe of the story. I had assumed it took place in the present time, or at least no earlier than maybe post World War II. What did other people think? Now I’m reconsidering.

When I went back to the Mrs Maudsley's visit..it occurred to me that she was in the library and found a makeshift bed with a copy of Jane Eyre, THEN she goes to the music room and is attacked there. Suppose that the "ghost" who uses the makeshift bed is threatened by someone finding out that "it" is actually a "squatter" who then attacks her in self defense? Given the state and enormity of the house anyone could come in and out without anyone being the wiser. Colkots

Joan, you asked me about another book club. It's a specialty evening under the guidance of a Professor of Eastern European studies at Loyola U. Polish Book Reading Club (in English) Previously we were dealing with underground literature circa Solidarity & before. Now we are reading approx 1919-45+/-. Included "Enigma, how the Poles Broke the Nazi Code: Kozaczuk,Straszak""Courier from Warsaw, Nowak" "Karski:How one man tried to stop the Holocaust" Please bear in mind that Roosevelt, Churchill & Stalin put Poland under communist rule. My late husband was unable to return to Poland after WW2 so he remained in England after completing his Naval service, where we met & eventually ended up in Chicago since 1959. Two of the three books are inour library... Anyhow this goes on until April... SO....back to the 13th tale....much more fun! Colkots

Judywolfs--the Angelfield twins, Vida/Angeline and Emmeline are meant to be identical. When Isabelle brings them back home, no one can tell them apart. Isabelle and Charlie are not twins; he is 9 years older.

I agree the story is taking place in the 20th century--there are automobiles in it. In post #24 I give some reasons why I think it's the later half of the 1900s.

Oh - thank you Pat - yes, you're absolutely right, I WAS thinking of the wrong generation when I wrote that. Ok, so in the case of Vida and Emiline, I do believe that the Angelfire twins are identical. Thanks for correcting that - ~JudyS

I figured out the approximate age of the twins at the time of the incident with Mrs. Maudsley. On page 60, when Isabelle is born, Charlie is 9, and a remark is made about 2 1/2 decades later, when Isabelle left home for the second time.... So Isabelle was about 25 when she was taken to the asylum. At the start of the summer full of picnics, during which Isabelle has an affair and leaves to marry March, a neighbor remarks that Charlie must be about 26 (p. 65), therefore Isabelle is about 17. She leaves toward the end of the same summer,(p. 73) and returns the following March (p. 75) with the newborn twins. At this time she is about 18, so when she is 25 the twins are 7. There are several "abouts" here, even assuming the author is being careful about detail.

I am disappointed not to be able to join you all in this discussion. My daughter says the county library does have the book...and she is #68 on the waiting list! (Obviously, the libraries need to stock more copies of some books.) Ah, well, some day I will read it, but alas, not in time for this get together.

Babi

I'll tackle some of question 8 before it's too late. I think Adeline and Emmeline behaved even more abnormally than you would expect from their extremely dysfunctional upbringing. It was pretty extreme, though. They were completely ignored by their sado-masochistic mother and uncle (who were probably sleeping with each other), fairly isolated, and kept alive by the well-meaning but random attentions of servants. I have heard that some twins develop languages of their own, though.

I keep wondering how Adeline, who scarcely realized that others were people and regarded it as a major intellectual triumph to notice that someone else could feel sad, ever learned to speak to the human heart well enough to keep people so enthralled with her books.

Question 9: no doubt Margaret didn't quite trust Vida's story and felt it was important to be sure, but I also somehow had the feeling that Margaret felt a need to escape from the intense atmosphere of the house, figuratively get a few breaths of fresh air and clear her head.

Now I'm going to go to bed, curl up in a nice warm nest of blankets, and read the next installment. I've been dying to go on.

BaBi--what a disappointment we won't have you discussing with us.

I realize I read the next instalment a day early. Don't worry--I won't give anything away--but it makes it clear that I was totally wrong about the age of the twins at the time someone bopped the doctor's wife.

This character Adeline March (aka one of the odd, wild Angelfield Twins and later as the famous author Vida Winter) seems pretty scary to me. And at least a little deranged, but very intelligent and creative. I'm beginning to think that dear old Uncle Charlie was actually her father. Any takers? ~JudyS

I agree that Charlie might very well be the father. For all we know, she may only have taken up with March in order to give her unborn child a name. The dates would fit with either father.

Maybe the red hair was a catalyst that started me thinking of who the father of the twins was - but I think it was more how the twins seemed to be so abnormal, held together with so many loose screws - made me think there was something terribly wrong with them. And I've heard long ago talk about children born of incestuous relationships inheiriting the most undesireable genetic traits of the family. Pat, what makes you lean towards this possibility? ~JudyS

that the reason Margaret left was to check on the "facts" as she knew them and home had the best resources to do so. After all, there is no laptop or google here......I'm wondering if anyone else noticed p103-5 with the makeshift bed and Jane Eyre book in the library. I suggested previously that we might have a squatter"ghost" We are told that the twins are identical by the cloth bracelets put on them by the Missus, one red, one white. And we also know that Charlie was up to no good when Isabelle was chasing Roland...so.consequences ..? As to identifying with the characters....not really.. I usually want to know what happens next... Colkots

I tend to follow the first person narrator so my main interest is in Margaret. For some reason I thought of The Great Gatsbywhere Nick is the narrator. He feels superior to Gatsby. Does Margret feel superior to Vida? Is that why she left to check on Vida's truth. Her finding the truth is more important than the stories Vida is telling. Margret is more than a narrator so I want to read more of her story.

What also comes to mind is which Twin is Vida? The one abused by her sister or the abusing sister? Vida's hand has to have some symbolism as to her rings. Does anyone feel sympathy for Vida? I'm not sure that I do.

Yes, identical twins have identical DNA patterns. There are a few cases of identical twins separated at an early age and reared apart, and they often show remarkable similarities in personality and life choices.

Wow! GinnyAnn asked which Twin is Vida? Up until the moment I read that, I automatically assumed that Vida was Adeline. And I don't really feel a lot of sympathy for her, except for that one moment, very early in the book, when she seemed to be overwhelmed with grief and suddenly sobbed "Oh Emmeline." Now thinking back, she might have been sobbing for herself, for her own losses, and maybe it was Adeline that was killed in the fire.

Speaking of dying: Isn't it gross that Isabelle's father died of blood poisoning from Isabelle's hair being wound around his ring finger. ! His ring finger? The one he would have worn a WEDDING RING on? Was he looking upon Isabelle as his WIFE, for pity sakes? ~ JudyS

I do feel sympathy for Vida. She wants to tell her secret before she dies, and is enduring some suffering in order to tell the story to Margaret.

I'm not sure Vida knows at this time which of the twins she really is. She told Margaret she was Adeline, but did she, as Emmaline, take on Adeline's existence after some tragedy we aren't told of yet?

I am also wondering if Vida's secret and the secret Margaret wants to resolve aren't going to converge? Why did Vida really call in Margaret to be her biographer. Is Hester Barrow somehow going to connect the two camps?

Can't wait to read on, but I will restrain myself.

Juanita

Joan asked, “Laura, why do you feel sympathetic to Margaret? Because of her strained relationship with her mother? Or because she seems consumed with the idea that her twin is beckoning to her - has become such a big part of her everyday experience. Almost haunting her. Is Margaret suffering from some sort of a mental condition - or just from an overactive imagination?”

I feel sympathetic toward Margaret because her relationship with her mother is strained and because she is consumed with the idea that her twin is beckoning to her. The two things are really one and the same. If Margaret’s family had been more open with her, Margaret would not feel compelled or haunted by a mystery. There would be much less uncertainty about the situation involving her twin, and much less time and effort would be spent dwelling negatively on the situation or feeling stuck in misunderstanding.

I am not saying much in the discussion for fear of spoiling the story. I read it in October and find I have forgotten a lot of detail. There should be some thoughts from Diane Setterfield relating to this week’s discussion questions. I will post them as we get to the points.

I'm another one who has already read the book...but secrets are to be kept until the proper time comes to reveal them. I had a break yesterday & ended up in a quaint bookstore in Santa Monica while waiting for my daughter,& purchased a paperback of Jane Eyre(which I had never read btw & skimmed through some of it) To be honest, the book that came to my mind when I started reading the 13th Tale was "Rebecca",even though there is no churning ocean and this setting is the North of England. I could identify with the governess & the doctor..my late husband & I worked together on a project as colleagues long before"romance" entered into it. Fiction mirrors life indeed, Colkots

Colkots, there was discussion of The Thirteenth Tale and its similarity to Rebecca in the B&N discussion. However, since I have not yet read Rebecca, and I didn't want to spoil it for myself, I didn't read that part of the discussion.

In reviewing my excerpts from the B&N discussion, I discovered this tidbit which I had completely forgotten about and should have posted a few days ago. It is in regards to the time period in which the story takes place. There is an error in the US edition of the book. Here are the question and Diane's answer:

Question from reader:

Throughout my reading of this book, I kept trying to figure out when it was taking place. No outside events intruded to help with the time frame - just little fragments like a horse, a car, no internet gave some indications but no definite time frame. I was also confused when Isabelle returned with the twins. On pages 74-75:

"Charlie was in the kitchen...when he heard the sound of hooves and wheels approaching the house...A familiar figure stepped down from the car..." The former implies a horse & buggy while the latter expressly stated car. I finally reconciled it to a typo and that car should have been cart.

Answer from Diane:

Yes, it's a typo. If I recall correctly, we caught it in time for the UK edition but the American edition had already gone to press. Though it is an error, I don't mind its presence too much. After all it lends weight, even accidentally, to my intention of blurring the time frame and thus placing the action in 'storybook time'. So if you want to see a car, that's fine. If you want to see a horse and trap, that's fine too. And if you wanted to see a pony and trap that turned into a car in the time it took you to turn the page, that's OK as well. You're the reader, and one of your rights is to fill gaps in the text and to resolve ambiguous authorial direction with whatever makes sense to you. My job is to send out coded messages, in the form of written language, which your imaginations turn into pictures in your mind. As a writer I want to control what you see as far as I possibly can in order to make my image of the fictional universe correspond as closely as possible with yours. But, ever the realist, I know there is a limit to how far I can dictate what you see.

Laura, that quote from Diane was very helpful. I wondered aboout the hooves and the car. Her statement about blurring the time frame is interesting. I've felt a lot of times that time is a rather elastic thing in the book.

Hester and the Doc were so filled with one another and each one of the others thoughts, it was only a matter of time before they converged. Mrs. Maudsley saw it coming and I'm sure the doc had the hots long before Hester realized that it wasn't her "ingenuity" that the doc wanted to share.

The catatonia of the kids was where I gave up on the two of them. I thought that they might bring a light into these kids lives but that was not the case. Why , if they were so darned clever couldn't they have seen how disconcerted these twins were without one another? How did they expect them to behave when they had lived synchronically for so long? They were treated like lab mice.

I congratulate any reader who has been disciplined enough not be have felt compelled to complete the book already.

I have been mesmerized sinced the opening sentence and to relieve the "torture," I finished "thing," and then asked myself the question, "What do I do next and how can I continue to engage in this conversation without giving away the twists and turns the long winded conclusion reveals.

For example, I was tempted to agree with the statement about Margaret's mother: "Surely she realizes she has a sad, failed marriage." The devotion of the father to both Margaret and her mother, however, dispelled this thought because he knew the real secret of the circumstances of the birth of the twins.

What I plan to do now is to read the discussion entries and then go back over what is revealed later to clarify the ambiguities that the author continually creates.

Laura, you said "I kept trying to figure out when it is taking place." The writers switching time and place with little or no warning seems to me to defy the logic of the way we are accustomed to find answers to secrets.This is what I found so compelling. Bern

As you know, I've also read the whole book. That is a big reason for my infrequent posting.

But the comment above, about separating the twins like "lab mice" really resonates. I almost put the book down when I got to that section! How horrid!
But needless to say, we must continue, even if some of the characters make us feel ill. And I agree with you, bmcinnis, that what we can do now is look for ambiguities, without giving away any of the story coming up.
I'll try.

bmcinnis--you are giving away a little already in implying there is something further to find out about the birth of Margaret and her twin, although I admit we could guess that.

It's really hard--I was in that position during "The Moonstone", and I kept wanting to say something whenever things got too far off track.

I'll get part of question 1 out of the way. After she looks at the portrait of Roland March, Margaret says "Were I to look all day and night, I knew I would find no trace of the twins he was supposed to have fathered.

That's a pretty clear hint.

Two things struck me about the Angelfield family tombs. Who arranged for Isabelle's tomb? Charlie didn't read the letter of notification for a while, and when he did, he immediately retreated to his own disfunctional world. It must have been the family lawyer, I guess.

The other thing is that there is no tomb for Emmeline.

I have not finished it yet! In fact, I haven't gotten to page 207 yet. Am I to be at page 313 by Wednesday?

I have stopped at page 207. Since we start discussing 208-313 on Thursday, I don't intend to start reading it until about Wednesday.

- hence my hesitation to post much further. The devil made me do it.

You have it right, Andy, how can one stop when the book is shouting 'C'mon read on'?

Did you notice that the story in the Banbury Herald (p 122) said that at the time of the fire "There had been no one in the house but the two nieces of the owner, both of whom escaped and were in hospital."?

I had assumed that Emmeline must have died in the fire, but apparantly not. Or else there was someone in the house who was assumed to be one of the nieces. I don't think we can take anything at all in this book at face value.

Counting the last 2 days' posts, I find 3 of us who have not finished the book, and 6 who have finished and are hesitant to post for fear of giving something away. If, when all the votes are in, you decide to change the rules to encourage more participation, I will be happy with whatever works for everyone else.

The scene (pp 164-171) in which Hester describes her observation of the twins to Dr. Maudsley in the topiary had an odd feeling to me. They are followed, presumably by Angeline: "...unbeknownst to them, the problem itself, well concealed by topiary, stared back at them through gaps in the branches." But then, when the Doctor stepped toward the geometrical tree, things shift to the first person: "My heart stopped. Was he going to walk around the tree....Was he going to trip over me?" Then back to the third person: "Behind the yew the little spy bit her nails and wondered." Why the shift? Is this the other Angeline peeking out? Or is it done to heighten the feeling of nothing being what it seems?

Even the yew tree is a shape-shifter. The Doctor says it's a dodecahedron. Later Hester says no, it's a tetrahedron. The doctor walks around it, counting sides, but stops at 6, realizing she is right. A tetrahedron has 4 sides, and one of them would be parallel with the ground, so 3 would take him all around it.

As he continues to talk to Hester, the world seems to tilt on its axis, then return. I don't know if this is his realization that Hester is not ordinary, or the beginning seed of his later romantic interest.

It's good to have you back, Joan.

By "the other Adeline peeking out" I meant the one that Hester had just described. Hester said that there seems to be a mist separating Adeline both from humanity and from herself, and sometimes the mist clears, and another Adeline appears.

It's interesting that Hester has the perception to see this, and cares enough about the "other child" to want not to lose her, but then gets caught up in her experiment, and her perception deserts her, and she is totally unaware of the obvious damage she is causing.

In the chapter preceeding "The Sisters,"I found the chapter relating to Margaret’s recovery interesting to me because it seemed to shift the focus from Vida to Margaret as being the main character long enough to find the answers to some more questions as well as to raise new ones.

What about the cat? I love felines and I could envision how Shadow’s actions would somehow be symbolic. Following behind, in this instance, could trigger the thought that the tale so far was an important clue to the upcoming events or that memories are important clues meant to help the reader discover the answers to these many questions.

And then there is Vida’s request to have a story read to her, a kind of digression with the assurance that revealing the whole truth is dependent upon “what has not yet happened.” Does this mean what is to happen through Ms. Winters story telling or to Margaret as she continues to listen this story??

Joan: you ask: Do you see Adeline as the wicked twin?

This is a perfect example of how reading a mystery in sections does not work (for me).
I not going to post any give-away-the-ending comments.

Unlike Great Books, this novel does not lend itself to reading in sections, as I think you mentioned back a few posts (can't find it, sorry). But I'm looking forward, hopefully, to a Great Books novel which will not require as much restraint as Setterfield's novel.

Normally, I would never read a suspenseful book like this slowly. It would take 2 days at most. It's been very interesting doing it this way, poring over every detail, trying to figure out all the implications, and trying to second-guess the author. I doubt if I will second-guess her, she's much too clever for me.

Angeline certainly looks like the "wicked" twin, or at least the wild, destructive one, but nothing is simple in this book. I can believe that she is actually under the control of Emmeline, who has made her supress her good side.

I'm glad we read "Woman in White" first, so we can catch Setterfield's little insider jokes. The latest is the parallel between separating the twins and Fosco's machinations to separate Marian and Laura and get Laura to London.

Fosco has the ill Marian moved, at night, while she is asleep, to an unused part of the house. He then tells Laura that Marian has already gone to Limmeridge, via London, and she must follow her sister, which she does. (In London, she is committed to an asylum.) Marian is then moved back to her own room.

Hester carries the sleeping Emmeline out of her bedroom, locking the door behind her. Angeline wakes up, realizes what has happened, and collapses. They take her to Dr. Maudsley's house, telling her Emmeline is there (not necessary, since Angeline is essentially catatonic). The still sleeping Emmeline is then moved back to her own room.

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to reread "Jane Eyre"; I bet I'm missing some more jokes.

I had been not marking things I found interesting because a friend it going to read my copy. But, today I gave in and marked this use of language. "aqueous air" Setterfield has a wonderful way with words.

I have not read "Thirteenth Tale" quickly; I am sticking strictly to the schedule and not reading ahead. My point was that I am getting a lot out of reading a section and then analyzing it at length before moving on.

I think it's really good that we didn't try to read 2 books simultaneously--it would have been very confusing.

Warning: spoiler for anyone who hasn't reached page 313.

bmcinnis: the cat, Shadow seems important to me, too, but I'm not quite sure how.

On pages 310-311, it seems that the event that has not yet happened, without which Vida can't tell Margaret the whole truth is Emmeline's death, which is very close now. I assume that she is reluctant to tell all Emmeline's secrets while she is alive.

Joan, something puzzles me. You have not read ahead in the book, so how did you figure out such appropriate dividing points for the reading? Then, when you do read a new section, you have very little time to come up with a new set of questions. How do you manage to think of such good ones so fast?

Joan, you asked some great questions in post #104. You and Pat are way ahead of where my thoughts were at that point in the book! I will say no more…

Maybe future mystery discussions should just be divided in half over a two week period. Just a thought for consideration…

Here is a thought from Diane Setterfield on color in the novel:

“How can I explain it? There is a distinct visual colour and texture to a novel one is imagining. You work with a certain palette. It was clear from the early days that this was a green and red novel and that it had the texture of moth-eaten velvet. The ideas I am working on at present seem to be in rather tweedy shades of brown and mustard, and they smell of tobacco.”

Here are some thoughts from Diane on Mrs. Winter’s name:

“Miss Winter was one of the last characters to be named. She existed under a number of possible names while I was discovering her story, and the book was nearly complete before I found the name Vida Winter. The du Maurier connection is an obvious one, I know, yet oddly it was not on my mind when I chose it, at least not consciously. (Though I loved Rebecca and I am quite sure that unconsciously my mind was making the connection.) I was thinking about ways of reducing the book (by reducing I mean here not diminishing, but rather the meaning the term has in cookery, where you reduce a sauce in volume in order to intensify the flavour), and I felt that by giving my writer the same name as the season the book is set in, I could bring about a compression of character and season that might bring about such an intensification. I don't know whether it worked. The name Winter pleased me doubly because the two sharp points of the W seemed to mirror the spikiness of Miss Winter's personality, and then Vida came to mind because it also had the icicle-sharp point in its initial letter.”

Here are some thoughts from Diane on writing the character of Margaret:

“Margaret is as she is and that is how she has to be. But there was a huge technical difficulty for me in writing her successfully. My problem was that her function as narrator and 'reader's guide' calls for her to be likeable (or if not the reader has at least to be willing to spend time with her), when all Margaret's personal qualities (she is solitary, inward-looking and uncommunicative) make her unwilling to spend time with the reader. One of my big break-throughs was the change from third- to first-person narration for Margaret's sections (in the first draft I used the third-person for Margaret's narrative because I thought it would help differentiate from Miss Winter's narrative, but switching to the first person gave her fewer places to hide). The other was the realisation that if I positioned the narrative as being written after the events, I could have Margaret's narrative benefit from the openness she has learned by example from Miss Winter whilst at the same time having her present herself at the beginning of those events as the reticent, world-shy woman she used to be. But it took me an awfully long time to work this out, and more than once I thought the Margaret problem was going to be insurmountable.”

LauraD, I was captivated by your "thoughts" in *122. They are so rich and "textured" with images and connections. Whether it be literature or any of the Arts, I have always approached a work as a discovery where the senses, internal and external explore the elements proper to each work. Students seem to like this because they do not have to wade through the jargon and often obscure language some critics use to analyze or explicate a work.These "thoughts" seem to have captured this.

I have to confess that it was not the mystery and the desire to solve mysteries that attracted me so much in this book. So, it didn't occur to me that I should not inadvertently reveal answers.I must confess also the only mystery I have ever read is "Sherlock Holmes" when I was in grade school. It is the language and how is is crafted that I love. It's the lush and overblown descriptions, outlandish comparisons and allusions that really work! I felt myself more caught up in experience than reason.

Joan, while I was waiting for your questions for the next section, I started reading a book about a fledgling author, a book discussed earlier in Senior Net entitled "All Is Vanity" by Christina Schwarz. How shall I describe it. It's a "Hoot." After reading the interview with this writer, aspiring to write a novel takes on a whole new twist.

Yes, Setterfield has a wonderful way with language. Here is a bit I particularly liked:

"All morning I struggled with the sensation of stray wisps of one world seeping through the cracks of another. Do you know the feeling when you start reading a new book before the membrane of the last one has had time to close behind you? You leave the last book with ideas and themes--characters even--caught in the fibers of your clothes, and when you open the new book they are all with you." p. 289

Joan, that remark about secondary characters struck me as odd coming from a writer. At the time, I put it down to Vida's self-absorption, but now I don't know. I'm sure that at least some secondary characters will reappear. Certainly Margaret is trying to track them down.

Is Vida making up the whole story? No, I don't think so. I have the feeling that all the characters are zeroing in on the truth.

Yes, Laura, the author's comments are illuminating. As far as I'm concerned, she did succeed with Margaret. I find myself identifying with her fairly strongly, although in some ways we are quite different. Margaret is getting more and more sucked into the story she is hearing, and it's affecting and changing her, uncovering things she had buried, making her come closer to being open.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Vida is deliberately orchestrating what is happening to Margaret. When Margaret describes how she figured out who Aurelius was, and brought him to see Emmeline, and shows she has translated some twin language, Vida says "You are doing very well, Margaret. Better than I thought."

Throughout the book< Margaret feels her sister as a presence on her right side. Sometimes she refers to an actual mark on her torso: "...the silver-pink crescent on my torso. The shadow my sister had left behind." (p 22); she feels her sister is coming "...I knew it from the heat radiating from her mark on my side." (p 296).

It seems like it's going to turn out that Margaret and her sister were Siamese twins, and the mark is the scar of separation (presumably with the other twin dying in the process). I hope I'm wrong--that seems a bit over the top to me, and unnecessarily dramatic, but it could explain Margaret's mother's coldness to her.

Question 1: Adeline followed everybody around and spied on them. She says herself (about Hester's conversation with the doctor) there is no privacy where there are children. I'm sure she spotted Charlie and Isabelle in the hovel in the woods, and Vida says she had seen Charlie there after Isabelle went to the asylum.

Surely seeing what they were up to must have had an unfortunate impact on a young girl, but I think that's at most only one of her secrets.

As a result of reading Hester’s diary, I wonder if Margaret’s attitude toward Miss Winter might change? How would this reading effect Margaret’s telling of Miss Winter’s story?

Hester characterizes Adeline’s destructive behavior as her “primary objective” or at least that she is mentally disturbed. How could Adeline become the Miss Winter Margaret knows? Am I missing something? I find myself looking more for the plot to unfold with some kind of sense and sometimes feel distracted from the task of interpreting the clues that will take me to the “truth?”

Hester’s diary is a revelation of herself. Could this be the seed for another Gothic novel? I am haunted with the idea of the destructiveness of her impact upon others if she seeks another position as a guide to a child’s upbringing..

Hester's diary hasn't yet appeared. On the last page we read, 313, as Margaret is saying goodbye to Vida before going off for Christmas, Vida hands her a book with a lock from Emmeline's treasure box, saying it won't be needed anymore, and telling Margaret to read it. I had assumed it was the diary mentioned earlier, but had also assumed it was Emmeline's diary. Evidently not. Bern--I'm sorry I haven't read the rest of your post yet; I stopped as soon as I saw it referred to something we hadn't read. I'll read it next week.

We are not told the name of Margaret's sister. I don't know what the author intended, but for me, it makes her seem even more remote and insubstantial. Margaret puzzles me, too. She sees that her father is pained by the tragedy, and she could guess that his silence is her mother's decision, not his, so I would think that sometime in all those years she would have talked to him. At times she passionately wants to rejoin her sister, which means dying, but I really don't feel I have a handle on her emotions here.

One of my problems is that the text of this book is on my Palm. The pages are not listed. I did not pay attention to the dates. I will go back to "After Charlie" and be sure to read the entries first to see if I am with the schedule.

One thing about Hester though, you will find she has a great sense of organization which I definitely lack especially when reading a novel where every detail seems to provoke another "hanging thread." My brain is getting jumbled. Bern

It's just as well that Margaret may not have to locate Hester, since she would be in her 80s or 90s, and might or might not be in good shape.

Bern, I could certainly use a better sense of organization. I do, indeed get tangled in the hanging threads. I find I am essentially reading the book twice; I read a section, than think about it and consider the questions, then skim back over things to try to get everything straight and fill in the details. I wonder how many of the threads will be tied up--probably most of them.

Mrs. Love and the sock:

Were you as charmed as I was by Mrs. Love's narrative? Twice before, she had turned the heel on a sock twice, and each time the person she was knitting the sock for died. When she turns the heel twice on a sock she is knitting for herself, she assumes she is going to die, and carefully unravels the extra heel so no one will find her and say "Silly old woman...she'd turned her heel twice."

For myself, turning a heel is a big enough deal that I can't imagine doing it twice without noticing, but I think if you knit a lot of socks it becomes more automatic.

I’m one of the few that hasn’t finished the book yet. I’m sure I would have, but I was away from home taking care of my adorable grandson for the whole week, while his parents were vacationing in Aruba; and I FORGOT to bring the book with me. It drove me crazy not being able to finish it!

Joan mentioned Hester’s abrupt departure from Angelfield - abrupt indeed! I was somewhat taken aback by that. I thought Hester was a super-responsible person (although pretty idiotic about her twin/split experiment, Alf was right when she mentioned the twins were treated like lab mice!) and then suddenly there she goes just simply abandoning her job. Maybe she was ashamed of the outcome of her relationship with the good doctor, or of the failure of her research experiment. Whatever. It just seemed so irresponsible.

That typo of “car” for “cart” didn’t confuse me. I thought that a horsedrawn vehicle was often referred to as a car.

Yes Pat! Maybe Adeline does have a 2nd personality! The wild one, and the civilized one that has become Ms. Winter. I’m dreadfully confused with this whole maze…

Every single character in this book seems to be terribly lonesome and full of secrets. ~JudyS

Joan ~ Still in process of reading it. I love it. My reading time has shortened. On page 289 "...Do you know the feeling when you start reading a new book before the membrane of the last one has time to close behind you? You leave the previous book with ideas and themes--characters even-- caught in the fibers of your clothes, and when you open the new book, they are still with you..."

This rang so clear to me, it jumped off the page saying this is how I have felt. There have been times when I haven't started a new book because I was still emotionally involved with the book I had just finished.

I agree with the new schedule. I've missed everybody, and will be glad to have them back in the discussion. I'll finish the book tonight and tomorrow, and jump back in.

I like the new schedule. I have been reading ahead a little. Now I'll just go ahead and finish.

I Think the author had a lot of fun with this plot. This is her first novel isn't it. Has she put in every element of every gothic novel, or does it just seem so now.

I'll post again when I finish the book.

Juanita

I decided to check out the hospital scene in LA so on Valentines day I had triple by pass surgery a total surprise! I am already at home with NINA and am told I look pink and intersting will keep in touch colkots

The chapter entitled Collapse begins with a list of losses…Here is another one of those sentences whose style and imagery again “stopped-me-in-my tracks!” "Then, in the middle of the night, I woke up, ears all ajangle, The noise of it was finished already, but I could still feel it resounding in my ear drums and in my chest…" Now, has anyone ever read a description of a “noise” with that kind of imagery and immediacy? It makes one immediately immersed in the moment and lose a sense of the course of events entirely.

But that’s not enough, immediately there follows the experience of yet another kind of loss: Missus standing in her night dress…then the roof collapses and the whole vignette concludes with a description of a sky with no stars!

I’m exhausted! The reading of this is better the second time around.

COLCOT: Hope you are doing well. Please keep us posted. What hospital were you in in LA (my daughter did her residency at UCLA and knows people there)?

Are you still in the LA area?

You are not the only one who didn't have a clue? I loved that about this book. I love mysteries and am good at solving them, but again this month, I was way off the beaten track. I thouroughly enjoyed this book. I felt the saddness creeping in when I finished it. Setterfield said somewhere along the way "The color of grief is common to us all."

As far as Hester, she was the "secret of the house and like all secrets she had guardians." That summed it up for me. I love secrets, don't you? I love to keep secrets and conceal them when asked.

I, also, didn't have a clue. I had decided that there really must be somebody else in the house, but couldn't figure out how or who that could possibly be.

I found the solution deeply satisfying.

I've got lots to say--don't know where to begin--but need to get my thoughts in order.

I also admit I was in the dark until the third child was explained.
What a well-woven tale! She does such a good job of picking up the loose ends! Even our beloved Dickens sometimes leaves strands of his plots hanging for eternity.

I don't know whether or not this is truly a Gothic novel, but I really hope Diane Setterfield is working
on another one!

Wow, wow, wow. My head is spinning. I finished the book, and need to go back again to make sure I "got it." ~JudyS

Diane Setterfield addressed many of the questions here. I will give you a couple of days to talk and then come in with some of her thoughts.

P.S. I have three stitches in my left index finger for nine more days, so typing is tough, so bear with me. But, it is far from triple bypass surgery! Rest up, colkets!

So many things to say, it's hard to know where to start. I'll start with Hester's diary. Although Hester is fairly clever about the twins, she completely fails to understand the companionship of John and the Missus, or much about their motives.

The diary makes it cleared that Adeline is too wild and uncivilized to turn into Vida, and describes many incidents of misplaced objects, stolen books, and shadows glimpsed out of the corner of an eye that could only be explained by a third person. But the real clincher, that made Margaret see the truth, was the "boy" in the garden whom nobody will identify.

as some of you may know i had already read the book on the plane coming from Chicago and promised faithfully not to reveal the final, tho i did hint at something WAY back in the postings, I had top-of the line ROLLS-ROYCE surgery at CEDARS SINAI performed by my version of DR MCDREAMY, the nurses of both sexes were efficient caring and gorgeous, My daughter NINA is my primary caregiver and i am expectingmy niece and the two boys as well.I have a regimen of therapy cming up and visiting caregivers, As i live alone in Chicago LA is the best place for me to be right now.Pat West emailed me well wishes.And many from friends and colleagues all over I'm so thankful to be here colkots

I did mention a loooong way back about the bed in the library and the suggestion that Charlie had been up to no good with the local ladies. & so the story comes forth.... I'm using a mac and my hands are tired where they took the implant stuff bye for now colkot

Yes, Shadow must have been good, but also, Hester wasn't very suspicious of something outside her range of ideas. She had a lot of clues: glimpses of someone, books being moved, the disappearance of her diary.

How could the truth have been revealed without Hester's diary? All through the book Vida is orchestrating Margaret's voyage of discovery, giving the background story, filling in as necessary, but leaving Margaret to figure out everything possible for herself. If the diary had not existed, Vida would have given Margaret other clues.

Why does Vida make Margaret do all the work of ferreting out the story instead of just telling her? Maybe the answer lies in Joan's question "Is it easier to keep a secret or to tell it?" Vida definitely had a great deal of difficulty telling her secret. She picked Margaret originally because M. understood about twins, therefore would see through any lying. At the start, she keeps saying wouldn't it be better if I told you a story. She seems simultaneously to want to tell more and hide everything.

Perhaps also she only wishes to tell her story to someone who can sympathetically appreciate it. Margaret has to prove herself as she goes along before she can get to the next stage.

Well I read until almost 3:00 a.m. to finish it. Wow! Many of the answers in the last chapters. Margaret is the main character as far as I am concerned. It is almost like Setterfield left open a future for Margaret, Shadow and Dr. Clifton at the end of the book. Maybe another book is in the works?

I am going to have to look at the past posts to see what you all think of this book.

It makes sense that it was the third child that became Vida Winter. The other two were hampered by the relationship that had created them.(?)

Saddness is the prevailing theme from the onset of the story and continues throughout the book with each character, doesn't it? In some manner everyone is afflicted with heartbreak of some type. There is anguish and distress galore in their lives. Not just the protoganist but the minor characters as well. Irregardless of one's station in life, I guess we all hold secrets and feel mournfulness, over some facet of our lives.
Joan, I thank you for your admirable leadership. I enjoyed this story and look forward to Ms. Setterfield's next novel to share with all of you.

with the trauma of the fire & the illness of emmeline it was easy for Vida Winterto step out of the shadows & claim her rightful place. Emmeline was never quite sure which "Adeline"was which..nor the general public..Before DNA testing and records & paperwork such as we have today ANYTHING can happen.(remember Woman in White) I'm a great believer in right place, right time..who would have thunk that a simple vacation to visit my lovely gal here would have resulted in life-saving surgery tired hands...sorry Colkots

Emmeline was completely sure which Adeline was which. Everyone else was totally confused.

I got a few chuckles out of the way Vida fooled people. JoanK and I didn't look alike enough to fool people who knew us, but we could sometimes fool unobservant people. Once we had a math class together, and the prof never did manage to keep us straight. If one of us didn't know the answer to a question, the other one would answer. Sometimes he would just say, oh, one of you twins answer the question.

With glowing red hair and emerals eyes, it would be easy, because people would focus on them, and not notice other differences.

Pat, I agree that Emmeline totally knew the difference between Adeline and child-Vida. I wonder why in the very first place did the Missus and decide they had to hide the third child at all. Why not just openly incorporate her into whatever remnants of "family" were left. One of the questions listed asks when did you first suspect Vida Winter's true identity? my answer: Never. I had no clue at all that there was a 3rd child there. I was quite sure that she was a multiple personality of Adeline. Even if I read Hester's diary for the second time. ~JudyS

Am I correct to decide that it was Vida who attacked the doctor's wife with the violin? Or was it Adeline? ~JudyS

Was it ever said why the young Vida was on her own? If it was Vida who stuck the doctor's wife, why did she do it?

I feel I need to reread it, knowing the ending, to look for clues. Those of you who read it twice, did you see more clues in your second reading?

There is definitely sadness and loss throughout the book, but there are some happy endings. Margaret, especially; she has finally made peace with the specter of her dead sister. Her dream in which she says goodbye to Moira and knows they won't communicate again in this life is a bit corny, as well as moving, but it is the symptom of her passing through her prolonged mourning and going on with her own life. As she herself says, "My life was my own." She even resolves to try to relate more to her mother. There is a hint of a conventional happy ending, too. We leave Margaret packing for a month's holiday to visit Dr. Clifton, and it is hinted that a solution will be found to the problem that Shadow (the cat) can't be happy in a town and Margaret doesn't want to be parted from Shadow.

By the way, I think it's significant that we only learn Moira's name at the end, when Margaret finally comes to terms with her.

Aurelius has a happy ending too. He has found out his parentage, and although it's a bit shocking, at least he knows. And he has gotten a half-sister and nephew and niece, who will be fond of him.

Hester has a happy ending too, though she is gone before the story opens.

Vida describes her own life as having ended with the fire, and all the rest as only filling in the time until death. I can't quite believe that. Anyone who can write stories as good as hers has got to have some sort of intellectual ferment going on in her mind. Her life is much more than waiting around. But it is full of sadness, and she has written all her stories, and accomplished her last goals of managing to tell her story and outlast the remaining twin, and she is content to go, so the ending is nosadder than the rest of her life.

For the twins, the fire was a total disaster. Does anyone feel they know for sure which twin survived the fire? I don't. But it isn't a happy ending either to be burned to death at age 16 or to linger on, a mangled mess, for 60 more years.

"Woman in White" readers: did you notice that Vida has committed a similar crime to that of Sir Perceval? She has pretended to be a legitimate co-heir to an estate, when by law she is not. In this case, no one is harmed by it. The surviving twin would be the heir, and she could hardly get better care if the money were being dealt out by a guardian. Morally, Aurelius should inherit the remainder of the estate when both twins are dead, but he is illegitimate, so he has no legal expectations. I hope Vida left him so mething in her will.

At least some of Vida's estate was used to fund making her house and garder a tourist attraction and paying Judith and Maurice to stay on and take care of it. There is no mention of anything else. I wonder if she kept a surreptitious eye on Aurelius? It would be easy enough to do, since Mr. Lomax, who was on the spot, was still handling her affairs. It seems a bit shabby not to have looked after him.

I don't see resentment in Margaret's mother, instead, I think she completely went to pieces emotionally after the experience (she nearly died, too) and never recovered. She still almost won't leave the house and reacts to everything with a sick headache. There couldn't be any question of keeping both twins alive. Margaret had the only heart, and it wasn't strong enough for both of them.

Adeline was just plain jealous of any on else's attention to emmeline it's there throughout..of course she did the destructive stuff it threatened her control... Vida was the watchdog knowing how jealous adeline was of the baby... best colkots

I think Aurelius is better off with his cousin and her children. He has grown up outside the Angelfields' wild tensions, and is 'normal' and a naturally happy person.

I wanted Margaret to have some kind of reconciliation with her mother, but I see that that just wasn't possible given her Mothers perpetual state of grief. But Margaret is now freed from the obsessive longing for the lost sister, and can go forward with her own life now.

I do look forward to Setterfield's next book and hope we can read it together when it comes out.

Juanita

I too had trouble settling the outcomes of each character. There were just so many and their characterizations were developed in such a way that I cared for each of them for different reasons. What I missed though, were many of the connections. I guess we could call them secrets although I would prefer to have secrets unfold in such a way the answers seemed more conclusive.. Each of their stories seems like it could be distinct and enjoyable in itself without needing so many threads to tie up at the end.

I found the entries a great stimulus for asking myself questions and learning how everything got “wrapped up.”

What’s next???

Vida did come back to the chapel, and take the baby on to Mrs. Love's cottage, but she didn't retrieve him from there.

After she left the baby in the chapel, she ran back to get Emmeline, and found that the fire had caught, and Adeline and Emmeline were fighting. Vida grabbed Emmeline to save her from the fire, but Emmeline pulled free and ran back into the flames. Vida followed, and found what she thought was Emmeline, but she couldn't actually see her. Vida pulled the supposed Emmeline out, locking the door behind her. At this point Vida saw that the twin she had was terribly burned, and didn't respond to either name. Vida herself had no idea which twin it was. She heard people coming, hid until she was sure they had found the twin, then sneaked away to take the baby to Mrs. Love.

She went back to the house, and was spotted and taken away in the ambulance with the twin. They assumed she was Adeline. From this point, it would be a long time before she would be free to retrieve the baby. She would be in the hospital, and then in the care of someone, since she was not of age.

We are never given any clue that Vida figured out which twin survived, but even if it was Emmeline, she was no longer capable of being a mother to the child. I think maybe Vida only cared for the baby because he was Emmeline's and Emmeline loved him, so she would be content to leave him in a loving home. There's no excuse for not at least providing for him financially, though.

The trauma of the fire and the subsequent rebuilding of some kind of life for Vida and whichever sibling survived supercedes any fiscal arrangement which might reveal the secret until the time was right.we are told that Aurelius is a gifted chef, the loving home he was brought up in,his adopted mother's recipes the basis for his business. in spite of all he turned out to be a gentle gifted man. ... Saw the Queen today... what a wonderful movie!

Best to all and goodnight Colkots

Vita was self centered, concerned about her sister but no one else. Once the baby was in a safe situation, I don't think she gave him any more thought.

Our F2F book group just discussed this on Thursday. The general consensus was that Adeline was the twin who survived, Emmeline having died in the fire. We still wondered how the treasure box came to be saved, and who saved it? It was a lively discussion, and most thought that the book deserved a second reading after some time has passed in order to "see" things we missed the first time around! I enjoyed the book, and having had just finished Woman in White the week before, it seemed there were parallels in the two novels.

My guess about the treasure box is: we know that not all of the house was burned. Perhaps Emmeline's bedroom was in the part that survived and the box, hidden under the bed, was protected enough not to be destroyed for a while until Vida could come back for it or have someone get it for her. When Margaret read the diary, it was in poor shape and water-damaged.

I saw a lot of things for the first time when I reread parts of the book. Maybe if I read the right parts again I would feel sure which twin survived, but for now, I sure don't know.

My memory is that Shadow found Ambrose physically attractive, but either didn't let herself love him, or couldn't love him, because all her love was bound up in Emmeline.

I think that after the tragic fire, all emotion dried up in Vida. As she herself said, her life ended then, and the rest was just filling in time.

Pat H. I agree with you that Vida stopped loving people after the fire. She was separated by death from those she loved.

Is it a Gothic element of style to leave us wondering which twin had died the horrible death?

Joan, I cut my finger with a razor blade (one that was in a razor blade holder for doing projects) while trying to remove a paint roller cover that was stuck on the paint roller hardware. I was trying to save some time and money Ha ha ha! I succeeded in doing just the opposite.

Here are the last of my excerpts from Diane Setterfield’s participation in the Barnes and Noble discussion.

Diane on Vida Winters’ appearance:

“I knew from early on in the writing process that it was going to be important to note the changes in Miss Winter's appearance. I carried very strong images of her at the various points in the story, and I wanted to suggest that the physical changes (from ill to iller, from heavy make-up to her natural pallor, from dyed copper hair to white) were the mirror of inner ones (from artifice and deceit to the truth). Also I was interested in the way women who habitually wear heavy make up can look younger when they leave it off. I wanted to show the child Miss Winter had been being revealed in some way though the alterations in her appearance as well as in her story. Hence the babyish tufts of hair by the end.”

A question from a reader and Diane’s response:

Q: I'm still confused about something. Maybe it's not relevant, but assuming the Twin's story is being told through Vida (and this is what I assume), how did she know so much detail of this episode? Hester had stopped posting in her diary by this time and the (mental/emotional?) capacity of the exiled twin is questionable insofar as relating particular details seen through Hester's eyes (such as what dress the exiled twin was wearing). I assume, again, that Hester was not seen by the sisters as she was observing them playing in the field (although I don't know this as the episode was never alluded to as Diane was tying everything together near the end of the book). Is the story's detail to be taken as Vida's artistic license in view of "The Truth" (in this case "Truth" being factual accuracy) being such a strong verdict occupying a central place in the novel? For me it would have been helpful for Diane to have made some reference explaining it... but then, I'm not a rocket scientist and there may have been something obvious that I missed. A re-read is due for me no doubt. I loved the book and was inspired to go on and read Jane Eyre, something I never did before because I thought it was a "chick" novel...and I'm such a guy (shame on me - I liked it too).

A: “The scene in the field can be explained I believe with reference to the revelations at the end of the book. If I understand correctly it is the scene at the doctor's house that is causing the trouble here. There is a short and straightforward answer, but it would be dishonest of me to give only that, because it is not the whole story. So I hope you don't mind if I make you read a longer and more theoretical one first. Together they are complete. So here are my various reflections: Answer 1: pragmatism and the first person. The first person narrative is hugely powerful in allowing a writer to show a character's world from the inside, and it is important for obvious reasons to maintain the first person perspective sufficiently so as to be persuasive. And yet. The first person narrative is also hugely limiting. For this reason a great many writers move slyly away from the strict first person perspective when they need to, for reasons which are usually justified by the demands of the story, and which, when it is carefully done scarcely causes a ripple on the surface of the text. By and large readers just don't notice, and so long as they don't it doesn't matter. Sometimes of course readers do notice it and then, depending on their taste, they will either be disappointed and their liking for the book will be diminished, or they will accept that the needs of the story justify it and, if they are post-modern by inclination, will even smile at the indication they have found inside the book that the character who is supposedly narrating the book is in fact a fiction. It is at moments like this that the 'real' narrative of the book reveals itself: a shifty, deceitful thing, willing to engage in any pretence, take on any disguise and drop it again, in order to get the story told. Answer 2: Everybody has a story. Obviously there are moments in The Thirteenth Tale when Miss Winter tells of events she didn't witness. The longest such episode I should think is the story of Charlie and Isabelle at the beginning of the book. This establishes the notion (central to the book and to my concept of storytelling in general) that stories often come to us secondhand. Not only that but here and elsewhere children are shown to be present where they are thought not to be, and hence to overhear things they are not meant to hear. Clearly there are stories about Hester and the doctor circulating in the village, probably originating with the doctor's maid who shared her version of events with John. Many readers will find they can answer the question, But how did she know? by reference to the notions of gossip and the supernatural ability of children to hear what we don't want them to. Answer 3: the roaming point of view of the narrative pleases me because it suggests (to me anyway) the notion of a story 'haunted' by its secret, hidden narrator.”

Question from a reader on Vida’s tale:

Q: Did she just write a story to entertain and enthrall us or did she have something else in mind?

A: “You know the word that leaps out at me from that question? It's the word 'just'. To me there is no more honourable calling as a storyteller than to entertain and enthrall. This is the most serious objective of mine in writing, one that forces me to draw on my memories of passionate reading experiences I have had and to seek to produce something that will have a similar effect on other readers. My desire to entertain and enthrall leads me to write and rewrite sentences until the rhythm is just what I want it to be, to tear my hair out over the structuring of a passage so that the elements of suspense, mystery and revelation fall just right, to ponder my plot for years in order to keep readers up late at night when they ought to put the light out. Of course one always 'has something else in mind' too. Amongst other things the novel is about loneliness, abandonment, death, the relationship between books and life, between one book and another... A book needs subject matter, after all, and it is clearly better if that subject is interesting to the reader and the writer, but the message - so far as there is one -is to my way of thinking far less important than the functions of stories. One such function (there are many) is to transport, to move, to cast that magic spell that novels like Jane Eyre, The Woman in White cast so magnificently. For what would we be without that ability to escape from ourselves, to remove our consciousness from our own bodies and move, imaginatively in another universe?”

Thoughts from Diane on why Vida chose Margaret:

“When I used the invented name Landier I was in fact thinking about the real Goncourt brothers. Living in nienteenth-century Paris, they wrote together, both novels and their very famous diaries. They were not twins, but the fact of their writing as a pair (even rarer then than it is now) suggests they were unusually close. In the French edition of the novel (not out till Feb 1st) we have replaced the name Landier with Goncourt.”

“I've just thought of something to add to this thread that might be helpful. When people read, it brings about a curious intimacy between two strangers, the reader and the writer. And frequently it gives the reader a sense that they know the writer. And of course to a certain extent this is true. Miss Winter, in reading Margaret's essay on the Landier brothers is persuaded that the writer must be someone who has a special interest in siblings. And - I have seen this myself in the questions people ask me about my book - such an impression sometimes leads further: to the suspicion that the writer has personal experience of the things of which he or she writes. Of course this may not be the case at all - the interplay between experience and the creation of fiction is more complicated than that. In any case, it doesn't seem necessary to me to imagine that Miss Winter is privy to any additional information about Margaret other than her reading of the book. The fact that Margaret has written the Landier essay is enough to make Miss Winter sure that she is the sibling expert she needs.”

Diane on characters:

“I wouldn't say that my teaching background had anything to do with it, but the slow genesis certainly did. I never rushed my characters, but allowed them to reveal themselves to me in their own time. Oddly, given that she has spent so long hiding the truth, Miss Winter came very quickly. I had a real sense of a person for whom the time left to tell the truth is running out - and there was, for me, a real sense of urgency in the way Miss Winter revealed her story. Margaret however was very reluctant to overcome her reticence. The failure of draft one of The Thirteenth Tale can largely be laid at Margaret's door. She came across as a very closed, off-putting woman, when I needed someone the reader would warm to despite her shortcomings. Getting Margaret right was one of the hardest parts of the book (and the structure, in particular the timing and order of the various revelations, was the other).

As for the other characters, I loved writing the Missus and John-the-dig. Their relationship was one that really moved me, and at times (if you have finished the book you'll be able to guess when) I got very emotional at the computer.

Hester was a character who took me by surprise. She was never meant to have such a large part in the novel, but once she turned up she was as brisk and efficient in the writing as she is in the house! She almost ran away with the novel. It was a relief to have Hester to write about, because I was having such trouble with Margaret.”

Question and answer on the green eyed cat:

Q: The green eye makes one think that Shadow might be a reincarnation of one of the twins, but which one.....

A: “This is not to undermine any of the comments in the 'cat's eye' thread that we've got going here, but sometimes it's not the meaning that's uppermost in the writer's mind, but the rhythm of the sentence. When I read that last sentence again I am struck by a number of things. Firstly that it had to be a single syllable (hence not 'yellow') because two syllables would have made the first two sections of the sentence equi-syllabic, and then the last five syllables would have sounded wrong to my ear. Also, if I had used 'gold' instead of 'green', the 'l' would have recalled the 'l' in 'cool', a resonance I wanted to avoid. Of course I was aware that by giving the cat green eyes I was recalling Miss Winter's eyes. But in writing that sentence I had the feeling of a painter who adds in a corner of painting a tiny touch of the colour he has used more intensively, more dramatically elsewhere in the painting. An echo of colour.”

Diane on her next book:

“My reticence on the subject of the next novel was not deliberately intended to frustrate, even though I knew it probably would. But a new novel is a remarkably elusive and fragile thing, and the very act of talking about it feels dangerous. There are various reasons for this. For me there is no single idea for a new novel, rather there is a tentative collection of little ideas that seem to want to join together. At this stage I do not know which will turn out to be the main thread and which ones will be secondary, or even turn out to leave only vestigial traces in the final book. To talk about one thread publically would be to bestow upon it a greater significance than the others, to make it somehow central, and I fear that it might skew the play of elements in my thinking. I know from the writing of The Thirteenth Tale how characters, scenes, themes that seem crucial in the early days can end up being entirely deleted, and I wouldn't like to set up expectations and then produce a novel that did not match them.”

“Too early to say much, though if you know the paintings of Stanley Spencer that might give you a visual clue to what's inspiring me right now. I find his work intensely moving and I love the way he perceives - and shows - the extraordinary that lies just beneath the surface of ordinary scenes and ordinary lives. His is a very small world which nonetheless opens into universality and eternity. Fabulous stuff. And loads of tweed!”

dear all...indeed we are connected through this book..after all the anasthesia they put me through I was quite sure that I could not put forth a cohesive sentence..my memory was playing tricks with me.. & to see it was not quite the case...in fact these posts kept me focused.. thank you all. Our author does not HAVE to tie up all the loose ends for us, that is our own privileged secret just for ourselves and our fertile imaginations.the pictures are really interesting, reminds me of long ago taking an old b/w camera to find pleasing compositions just for practice and fun. Colkots

colkats, I could not agree with your more about what our closing thoughts could be and how much the conversations added to our appreciation of the text, its meanings and our interpretations. As an online course instructor and designer, these discussion entries are special because they reveal in a very positive way the power of online learning each individual on her own or through an online modified approach to an on campus course. At this point for me, it is the adults more than the traditional student who appreciates this.These students "catch" the technology fast, but many still have to develop tried-and-true skills of time management and the reponsibility of finding time in their busy schedules to review the "class" on a regular basis.

Most of all though, Joan, if you ever want to continue (like I did) or take up a challenging career as an online teaching instructor, consider it seriously. Your kind, informative and inclusive approach stimulates great replies and debunks the claim that effective, personal and enjoyable communication is deminished in an onlne approach to learning. Can't wait for "The Red and the Black." Bern

This book has left me a bit unsettled. There are so many knots that I've been thinking need to be unravelled, and puzzles I haven't figured out. I think maybe that's why I don't ususally read mystery books or who-done-its or gothic novels, I'm not very in tune with "plot." But, in a way, that's still ok with this book, even though I may never figure out the actual story; because the writing is exquisite. On every page there are phrases that catch me, and make me think "Oh, I wish I'd written/said that." The characters are wonderfully drawn too - I feel as though I would recognize them on the street, and indeed that I would recognize the wonderfully described settings shown in the book. Setterfield has painted an entire gallery of portraits and astounding images with her words. ~JudyS

Judywolfe--yes, there are loose ends, some of them deliberately left loose. I feel I got a lot more of the details straight reading it with the rest of you and with Joan's thoughtful questions to make me look at things in a new way. It must have been particularly hard to write the questions without reading ahead.

Colkots--"these posts kept me focused". That's one of the good things about these discussions; theykeep us using our brains and seeing we still can.

JoanP ~ Thanks for leading an excellent discussion.
And thanks to all you bookies for all your thoughtful commentary!

If only you knew...... the only way my daughter knew she could safely leave the house while she was the sole carer was to sit me at the table with this mac and let me have fun! I've had to learn to get in and out of bed, to take care of toileting, to walk with a walker, cough, blow into a gadget. My niece came to stay for the weekend and left today.. it was GREAT to hear the cousins laugh , sleep and have a great time together. Both Nina & I are/were sleep deprived as Ikeep waking up for a bathroom "run"...!! Such a wonderful caring daughter..! Good news tho, yesterday I graduated to a cane and today walked up the street with the therapist..and tomorrow, who knows Colkots

My son Corky Siemaszko NY Daily news sent me the DVD of MAZOWSZE which is the PolishFolk Dance group with which my late husband Kostek had long ties, he trained at the Instytut Fiziczny in Warsaw pre WW2 with other folk instructors. Some of you may have learned in previous postings that I was closely connected with Polish folklore and costumes. Please watch your local public TV for this program. I know it's going to be part of a fundraiser (sigh) BUT if you like colorful costumes, lovely singing and superb dancing... look for it any time from March 3 in your area.... You don't have to be Polish to enjoy a good show... Bobby Vinton is the narrator... Best to All....Collette Siemaszko Colkots

My -- What an illustrious family , Colkots.

I wish I had quizzed you more about your husband and children, when we met in Montreal.

Your progress sounds right on schedule.

Joan, thank you for leading this discussion - like so many others I got much more out of the book by reading it with this group than I would have if I had by going it alone. That's always the way with the book discussions on Sr. Net! It's fascinating to learn about so many different perceptions and alternative views of the same work.

And it's cool to run into so many of you from past discusions and to meet new people who will, soon enough, become some of my "old familiars." Thanks to all; this has been fun and worthwhile. ~JudyS

Thanks Joan for leading us and all of my fellow readers for an enlightening discussion. Not sure I would have bought and read it, if not for this discussion. It is a book that is hard to put down mentally.

Thanks again, Joan and everyone else. I, too, would probably not have read the book except for this discussion, and that would have been too bad. Get well fast, Collette.

Hi, all. I haven't posted in this discussion because I'd already read the book and since it was a mystery, I was afraid of letting something slip out ahead of time! I've been tuning in though and it's been fun. Today's NYTimes has an article pertaining to twins that would have been appropriate earlier but here's a link (if I can make it happen!) OOOOPS! It's not working! I can't make the link, however the article is titled "A Singular Pain: when death cuts the bond of twins" in NYT Thursday, Mar.1 so maybe someone can put up the link. So sorry. So inept! I shall scurry off with a red face.

I'll have a crack at the link, although I think it's tricky. Sometimes when others post NYT links they don't work.

Twins

Joan P, I see you beat me to it. Joan R, thanks for pointing out the article to me, since it is in the Styles section, which I don't always read, so I might have missed it. One of JoanK and I will presumably have to face these issues eventually, but I hope not for decades. And thanks for telling us you were there. Sometimes I wonder about all the people reading the posts and not saying anything, and hope they are enjoying it. I bet you had a few chuckles watching us trying to second guess the author. I don't think anyone could second guess her completely.

I don't think we are supposed to know for sure which twin survived, but I slightly favor Adeline. The survivor isn't destructive, as Adeline was, but since A. went into a catatonic state before when separated from Emmeline, maybe that happened again.

The twin article

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/01/fashion/01twins.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I am a member so I could get the article but not sure if nonmembers will be able to read it

I can read all the posted links, but I'm also a member, so don't know what that means. Any non-members out there?

The article is really relevant to the book.