Yellow Wallpaper, The ~ Charlotte Perkins Gilman ~ 11/03 ~ A Women in Literature Reading
patwest
October 14, 2003 - 02:02 pm










The Yellow Wallpaper

by Charlotte Perkins Gilman

Click here for the text Online!



For Your Consideration: Pages 11 and 12:

Illustrations Courtesy of Cornell University Library,
Making of America Digital Collection
Gilman, Charlotte. "The Yellow Wallpaper"





  • 1. The END! And what an end it is, do you think it's a positive or hopeful end? Why or why not? (Maryal)

  • 2. Why would John faint? If he were trying to drive her insane wouldn't he be satisfied?
  • What does her continuing to "creep" over him mean?

  • What do you think he'll do when he wakes up?

  • Isn't the door open now? Can she now get out?
  • 3. "It is so pleasant to be out in this great room and creep around as I please! " and "I suppose I shall have to get back behind the pattern when it comes night, and that is hard!" In Page 12 Narrator has completely transferred identity to the paper.
  • What does the time of day have to do with Narrator and the pattern?
  • What does this parallel in her own life?
  • 4. What is the significance of "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"

  • Who is JANE? (Maryal)

  • If Narrator is anxious not to be put back, who are the women she sees outside and why is she afraid of them and afraid to join them?

  • What does it mean that she "ropes" herself in for fear of going to the road? "But I am securely fastened now by my well-hidden rope—you don't get ME out in the road there!"

  • What can be made of all the images of escape and restraint in these passages? Are they symbolic, and if so, of what?
  • 5. There seems to be a definite break between Pages 11 and 12, where does it come and what form does it take?

  • 6. What is the meaning of this passage, "But I am here, and no person touches this paper but me—not ALIVE!"

  • 7. What is the meaning of "She tried to get me out of the room—it was too patent!"

  • 8. "The bedstead is fairly gnawed!" (Page 11) "I tried to lift and push it until I was lame, and then I got so angry I bit off a little piece at one corner—but it hurt my teeth."
  • What do the references to the condition of the bed mean?
  • 9. "To jump out of the window might be admirable exercise, but the bars are too strong to try.

    Besides I wouldn't do it. Of course not. I know well enough that a step like that is improper and might be misconstrued."
  • What do these two sentences reveal about Narrator?
  • 10. Was there another woman trapped in that room at one time, and with her sensitivities she picked up on that and subsequently became that woman? (Mountain Rose)
  • Previous Questions for Pages 1 and 2

    Previous Questions for Pages 3, 4, and 5

    Previous Questions for Pages 6, 7, and 8

    Previous Questions for Pages 9, and 10




    Themes to Watch Develop

  • Her illness
  • John's role: helping or hindering
  • Societal commentary
  • The Yellow Wallpaper itself
  • The medical treatment of mental disease
  • The nature of the journal she keeps
  • References to the Narrator as a child.
  • A cry for justification
  • Religious issues
  • Alienation
  • Imagery and symbolism
  • Changing perspectives of the Narrator
  •     what triggers them
  •     what they mean
  •     when they occur
  • Ethical issues raised
  • Male Power and Marriage
  • Facades in communication
  • Medical practices of the day

  • Comments? Write Ginny

    Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore | Suggest a Book/Discussion





    Ginny
    October 14, 2003 - 02:12 pm
    Hello and welcome to our first reading in the Women in Literature series, The Yellow Wallpaper, a short story in 12 parts, entirely available online!

    But you need not be a woman, nor part of the Women in Literature group, to participate in this deliciously creepy short story reading, and we think this will be a true Halloween horror, a real treat from the past.

    The Yellow Wallpaper has to be one of the great classics of all time, its subtlety and careful exquisite expression and economy of...what CAN you NOT say about it, are seldom found today.

    LOOK at it!

    That's it in the heading, in few short words, we are catapulted into a world we might not find agreeable, there's a LOT to talk about in this thing!

    Who, for instance WAS Charlotte Gilman? What's the story behind this piece? Don't you LOVE it?

    Do you think she is really sick? Don't you love the contrast between the sainted doctor husband and his sick wife, and why does she say she thinks the reason she IS sick is because he's a doctor?

    "Physician, heal thyself," or the "Cobbler's children always go barefoot?" What's going ON here?

    Have you read it recently? Will it stand the test of time?

    All this and more awaits you in our short but enjoyable discusison of The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, beginning on November 1, if we have enough people, that is. Do sign in if you are interested!

    You'll never look at wallpaper the same again.

    ginny

    Ginny
    October 14, 2003 - 02:21 pm
    I ought to write in yellow, huh? hahaahha I'd like to thank Pat Westerdale for the gorgeous heading and the wallpaper I can't take my own eyes off!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 02:34 pm
    I've read this story several different times. It is one of the most terrifying pieces of writing I've ever come across, one which makes me want to throw up every time I look at it. I'll be here, GINNY, reading what people post and perhaps posting once in a while myself.

    Mal

    Ginny
    October 14, 2003 - 02:52 pm
    Great, Malryn, so glad to see you here, isn't it something? This will be great fun, I am really looking forward to it!

    ginny

    Ann Alden
    October 14, 2003 - 03:18 pm
    All right, Ginny, I'm hooked!!

    Ginny
    October 14, 2003 - 03:25 pm
    All riiiiight, Ann and a great one for your return!!

    YAY!

    ginny

    ALF
    October 14, 2003 - 06:10 pm
    good grief. I read it online and then I printed it out. A shadow of Poe we have.

    Ginny
    October 15, 2003 - 01:38 am
    Isn't it incredible, Andrea? I just myself reread the opening paragraphs here in the heading and I have to gasp at what all she's saying, this will be better than a bag of Halloween Candy, WELCOME!!

    ginny

    ALF
    October 15, 2003 - 06:14 am
    Drats, no Butterfingers, Ginny? My mind keeps skipping all over the place. The first time I read it, I made quick notes on a piece of paper. I printed it out and made different notes and the 3rd time around, I thought, hey now I get it. (I think.) I have a very macabre sense of being anyway, so this is right up my alley. You have chosen well. This is a wonderful choice for your topic and it cuts right to the chase,early.

    Scrawler
    October 15, 2003 - 10:04 am
    OK count me in. I love this story. I've read it a few times. It makes me think of those old film-noir movies, where the husband is trying to drive the wife crazy. You know the ones I'm referring to - "Notorious" or what's the other one with Boyer --yes, "Gaslight".

    Scrawler (Anne of Oregon)

    Ginny
    October 15, 2003 - 02:51 pm
    Anne!! (Scrawler) welcome, welcome, yes it's a doozy and I'm like ALF (Andrea) every time I read it I see something else, it will be fun to see what all we DO see in it!

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    October 15, 2003 - 02:55 pm
    There were several bios in Yahoo, I thought this one was interesting: I deleted the reference to the "Yellow Wallpaper" it describes it too well and might spoil the discovery of reading it.

    CHARLOTTE PERKINS GILMAN (1860-1935)

    As a prolific writer in the early 1900s often focusing on the "woman question," Charolotte Perkins Gilman influenced thousands of women through her witty and often provocative novels, studies, stories, poems and lectures. Grandniece of Harriet Beecher Stowe, Gilman grew up in a modest home in Providence, Rhode Island. A short time after she dropped out of college, Gilman married a local artist and gave birth to her first child. Soon after, she suffered from a near nervous breakdown. This experience led her to relocate to California, get a divorce, and leave her daughter in care of her ex-husband. These bold actions were practically unheard of during this time, particularly for women. In California, she was poor and turned to writing as a way of earning money.

    After publishing a book of poetry, she joined the socialist Helen Campell in editing the Pacific Coast Woman's Press Association. Then she turned to lecturing: her name began to spread, and she became well known for her discussion on women's topics. With book Woman and Economics (1898), she emerged as a spokesperson on such topics as women's perspectives on work and family: she believed that men and women should share the responsibility of housework--a radical notion at the turn of the century. She also believed that women should be encouraged, from a very early age, to be independent and to work for themselves.

    In 1900, Gilman married her first cousin, and continued to write. Herland is a visit to an island inhabited by a community of women under the rule of the New Motherhood (replaces male-oriented ideals). Charlotte Perkins Gilman co-founded the Women's Peace Party in 1915 with activist Jane Addams.

    Tragically, in 1935, she took her own life before she was completely overwhelmed by cancer.

    Hallie Mae

    Ginny
    October 15, 2003 - 03:47 pm
    My goodness, Hallie Mae, what an interesting find, thank you very much for that, for heaven's sake and to think I knew nothing about her, thank you VERY much for that, her own life would be a book!

    ginny

    Ella Gibbons
    October 15, 2003 - 05:15 pm
    Great story - I've read it and will read it again, although there is no conclusion to it - just speculation and it will be a "choice" or grade "A" (which is better?) topic for discussion. Interesting that the author had a nervous breakdown! You could pick every sentence apart and still not have answers, but maybe someone............ ?

    Ginny
    October 15, 2003 - 05:26 pm
    Fabulous, Ella, so glad you are here with your sharp mind, we'll enjoy this one, every sentence, as you say, is sooooo intriguing, just the heading alone you could talk over for ages, so glad you will be joining us!

    Grade A+++! hahahaa

    Diane Church
    October 15, 2003 - 10:08 pm
    Yipes! Just read it and can't wait for the discussion to begin.

    Ginny
    October 16, 2003 - 03:37 am
    YAY! Diane, so glad to see you, I'm really looking forward to it, also!

    Welcome!

    ginny

    Lou2
    October 16, 2003 - 06:56 am
    I'm really a scardy cat... I dream about scarey stuff forever... and wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it... BUT... I've book marked the story and will give it the old college try!! How can I not read it, with all the comments... I'd wake up wondering.... and dream about what I've missed.... LOL

    Lou

    ALF
    October 16, 2003 - 07:36 am
    Thank you Hallie Mae for that bio. It certainly adds dimension to this story doesn't it? That poor woman, I had NO idea that this was written in the late 1800s. for some reason I put it in the early 1930's in my mind.

    BaBi
    October 16, 2003 - 01:20 pm
    I've started reading the story, but will finish it another time. Already I've found two or three places where I mutter "Uh-oh". Looking forward to the discussion. ..Babi

    Hallie Mae
    October 16, 2003 - 01:41 pm
    Ginny and Alf, I actually picked the shortest bio, there are several others more in depth if you're interested.

    I've started reading the story, there is something of a parallel in the book I'm reading ,"Zelda" , which is about Zelda Fitzgerald, who was constantly in and out of psychiatric hospitals, in several of her letters to F. Scott she discusses her writing . He doesn't encourage her too much, especially when she writes stories about their life. He bases many of his short stories and novels on their life, and he considers that "his" material to use since he is the professional writer in the family. Hallie Mae

    ALF
    October 17, 2003 - 06:51 am
    How can I say this nicely? Up yours, F. Scott. !!!!!!!!!!

    I love the color yellow as it's always symbolized to me the brilliance of day, sunshine, happiness and glee. That is precisely why I chose a bright, canary yellow Focus to bop aabout in. I love my lively,sparkling lil buggy and it makes my spirits soar.

    However, after reading the narrator's slip into insanity in her "beloved yellow wallpapered room" I hesitate to be quite so carefree. Maybe I'm wigging out and don't have sense enough to know it. hahaha

    I hate this waiting to begin a discussion. It makes me crazy and then I lose all interest. Ghandhi is growing dust, 100 yrs of Soilitude seem just that-- 100 yrs. ago and now I've been forced to wait to creep into the yellow wallpaper. I hate it.

    Ginny
    October 17, 2003 - 07:52 am
    Well that's what we like, Andrea, eagerness to begin, isn't there a song about AN tic i pation! hahahahahaa builds up the excitement and this one will not be a disappointment, don't want to say more now about what the story is actually SAYING, but I think we will love the discussion, I KNOW people will love the story, can't wait to see what everybody comes up with, hopefully a million DIFFERENT perspectives.

    ginny

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    October 17, 2003 - 08:12 am
    Whoops I didn't realize it was a story we were going to discuss and here I read it while grandboys are in school and my daughter is not at home teaching this morning (I'm visiting - - part of the story reminds me of some movie I saw of a child who experienced a tragic plane crash in the jungle that killed her father and who is handling her emotions with unusual behavior - she must blend into the background of all her surroundings and while both her mother and the doctor are out of the room in the hospital or clinic, she paints herself to look just like the wall paper and tree outside the window in the room - all the staff and her parents are wildly looking for the child and finally the Doctor figures it out - he goes back into the room and sees the child painted so closely to the background and of course the story ends with the child in good hands to be cured...

    What an example of abuse is represented in the Yellow Wallpaper. The story is a wounderful chronology of how a person is made to go crazy - this is so typical of the protected women where everyone takes part in minimizing a women's needs including her physical needs, so that women themselves learn to please by adapting the role and start on their own to minimize their needs and their health - this author sure has the ability to outline the pattern it takes from mental health to insanity all done it the name of love...this is like taking a book like Understanding Verbal Abuse and weaving a story using all the aspects of abuse in the story...Great find Ginny - my thoughts are reeling as I sort through how much when I minimize another's needs I am really coming from a place where I have learned to minimize my own needs...ah so...

    Lou2
    October 17, 2003 - 12:17 pm
    Talking to my sister last night on the phone.... a friend of hers did her dissertation on The Yellow Wallpaper!!! Boy, would I like to read that!

    Lou

    GingerWright
    October 17, 2003 - 01:25 pm
    Your wish is my command.

    http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Charlotte_Perkins_Gilman/The_Yellow_Wallpaper/The_Yellow_Wallpaper_p1.html

    It is in the header here.

    Ginny
    October 17, 2003 - 01:41 pm
    BARBARA!! There you are and you've read The Yellow Wallpaper, but it's like Sid and the Alligators, I can't want till we discuss this November 1 and to hear YOUR own perspectives on each of the points! Welcome!!

    Lou2, (thank you Ginger, for pointing out that the entire short story is in a link in the heading, that happens so seldom I am really hoping everybody knows this and we will repeat that constantly, hoping to get as many as we can in here, thank you!) Lou2, will you please ask your friend for all and any of her insights? I would KILL to hear what she has to say because I was STUNNED upon reading more about this story to find out some of the interepretations!

    Hold on to your various seatbelts (are your tray tables in the upright and locked positions?) You are in for SOME ride, kind of like Barbara's Alligators, we must get her to talk to us about that some day, IN FACT, Barbara, when you get home, I would like for that to be one of our Topic Tuesdays in the Women in Literature, would you mind typing it out for us then? (Barb is on a trip right now TRYING to enjoy herself) ahahahahah

    ginny

    Lou2
    October 21, 2003 - 02:30 pm
    Ginny, talked to the sister again... her friend is Carol Kivo... I just did a google search on her and found a book called: The Casebook:The Yellow Wallpaper.... My sister now lives in Colorado and Ms. Kivo is her friend from the old job at Pepperdine... Looks like this casebook is essays about Yellow Wallpaper, I'm guessing here... but doesn't look like it will be an easy one to find... Wish sis was still in Malibu... alas, and alack.....

    Lou

    Faithr
    October 22, 2003 - 06:57 pm
    Just subscribed so I will be in on the discussion. Cant miss this one. It is too too grisly a story. faith

    Ginny
    October 23, 2003 - 11:03 am
    Lou, I have been absolutely astounded at what's been written on this thing, thank you so much for trying to find out, just the knowledge that a dissertation WAS written on it is a "heads up" to me, I was just doing a lark in the park you might say, we'll depend on our sharp eyed readers to help us out here, anything you can find will be more than welcome, I''m floored by the dissertation idea already!

    Speaking of sharp eyed readers, our FAITH!! How good to see you here, I am so pleased with this turn out, and I hope that no person who has missed this story will miss this chance to "have at" the issues here, what fun!

    ginny

    horselover
    October 25, 2003 - 06:00 pm
    WOW! I can't believe I have never heard of this story before, since so much has been written about it. I will just have to fit it into my reading schedule.

    Ginny
    October 26, 2003 - 04:29 am
    Ho!! Horselover, super!! So you'd never read it, either, well what a joy to watch you all discover it again (and I must admit it's been so long since I read it, truly that reading it again it's as if I never had also, you can really appreciate what she DID), we're going to enjoy this one!!!

    So glad you're here!

    ginny

    Hats
    October 27, 2003 - 04:54 am
    Hi Ginny, I am anxious to read this one. It does seem to set the mood for Halloween.

    Ginny
    October 27, 2003 - 05:53 am
    Hats!@! Sooo good to see you again, and you're right, isn't it funny, it IS a sort of Halloweenish tone, just look what she mentions in the first paragraphs, I love the way it starts, large country mansion, possibly haunted (I think it's haunted but I'm not sure by what), remember those old horror movies? They always seemed to start with a car trip which breaks down and a jaunt to the haunted mansion where the monster awaits. Can't WAIT myself to get into this one, welcome.

    ginny

    YiLi4
    October 28, 2003 - 01:47 pm
    When the discussion starts, I hope to remember to share with you all some responses when I assigned this reading to students back in oh I think 1983- hmm wish i were teaching again perhaps at the same college, reassign the work and see what the current generation's response.

    Hallie Mae
    October 28, 2003 - 02:49 pm
    YiLi4

    That sounds like fun, I'd love to read your student's comments.

    Hallie Mae

    Ginny
    October 28, 2003 - 05:28 pm
    ME TOO, YiLi, don't hold back!! Welcome! We are very glad to see you here!

    ginny

    GingerWright
    October 28, 2003 - 06:52 pm
    Welcome aboard the Senior Net Books and Literature discussions. I have sent you a Welcome letter and wish to apologize for miss spelling your name in the letter. We (the posters) are so Glad that You have joined us.

    Thank You, Ginger

    Traude S
    October 31, 2003 - 10:04 am
    GINNY, of course I'll be in. Our local live group discussed this last year.



    HALLIE MAE, thank you for the autobiographical information. In this case it is important, I think, to consider the author's life to (at least half-way) understand "where this story is coming from".

    Ginny
    October 31, 2003 - 10:13 am
    TRAUDE, super, and I want to hear EVERY word they said!!! Hopefully you took notes?

    Welcome!

    ginny

    Deems
    October 31, 2003 - 10:57 am
    Hi, Ginny. I'll be here too. I can even share some of the comments that my students have made on this short story. At least I think I can. I'm not teaching it this semester, so I'll have to stretch my memory.

    ~~Giant Head with memory stretching device attached.

    Ginny
    October 31, 2003 - 11:28 am
    Oh Joy! Giant Head herself, surfacing like the Loch Ness Monster, HOORAY! Oh boy I'm glad I came in here today!! I have the CRAZIEST takes on this thing and ideas, and so...I guess this needs to be in yellow, will be looking for ALL of you tomorrow and anybody else who wants to come along, am very glad of your company (WARNING: it will be a crazy ride)!

    ginny

    ALF
    October 31, 2003 - 01:23 pm
    Hey pumpkin head is here, er--is it Giant head? aha, gotcha, I'm now in possession of your email address once again. One coming.

    kiwi lady
    October 31, 2003 - 02:17 pm
    I will be in on this one too. Its an unusual piece of writing.

    Carolyn

    Ginny
    October 31, 2003 - 03:11 pm
    Carolyn!! Welcome, welcome, we are delighted to see you and boy ISN'T it different, you can say that again, every time I read it, different, different, different!

    Alf (Andrea) hahaha we have our own Great Pumpkin, huh? hahaahah aHhahAHAHAH

    Well you know what happens when you wait for the Great Pumpkin?

    ginny

    Deems
    October 31, 2003 - 03:34 pm
    The Great Pumpkin rises from the stack of student papers.

    We had chocolate in all three classes today for Halloween. My completely unscientific survey indicates that people between the ages of 18 and 22 prefer miniature Hershey bars (not the tiny ones, the special for Halloween ones, 4 chunks to a bar) to miniature Heath bars. Who knew?

    Perhaps they were just going for the larger bar?

    ~The G. Pumpkin

    horselover
    October 31, 2003 - 03:40 pm
    Ginny, I finally read the story and was amazed at how many interpretations there can be of this short piece. I had thought the diagnosis of hysteria for women suffering from a variety of ailments went out with Siggie Freud and his colleagues. I agree with whoever said it reminds you of films like "Gaslight." But, in this case, the woman might actually be ill, suffering from severe post-partum depression.

    Thanks to Hallie Mae for the bio which throws some light on the story. The author herself may have suffered from unrecognized post-partum depression (quite different from an ordinary case of the blues). Just as the author fled and left her baby in the care of her husband, the woman in the story has turned over the care of her baby to others. Years ago depression was often misdiagnosed or undiagnosed with drastic consequenses. Even today, post-partum depression often goes undiagnosed and untreated; the woman is left to fend for herself until we read in the newspaper about the murder of her child, her other children, and sometimes herself.

    We see the husband entirely from the woman's point-of-view. He seems authoritarian and very unsympathetic. He is also a doctor, and so could be treating her with drugs that might make her illness worse if he does not diagnose it correctly. Or he could be "gaslighting" her, and she may not have been sick at all.

    I can't wait to see what the others think of these characters!

    kiwi lady
    October 31, 2003 - 11:55 pm
    I thought the woman was suffering from post natal Psychosis. I could not figure out the last bit of the story. I must be really dumb! I am looking forward to everyones ideas. I did not find the story scary however.

    Carolyn

    Ginny
    November 1, 2003 - 05:31 am
    A bright good morning and welcome to you all to what I hope will be a fantastic discussion of The Yellow Wallpaper!

    Horselover, welcome, and I am really looking forward to your comments!!

    Carolyn, you will find that you're right on the money taking a stand this morning, let's look closer and please do NOT forget your question, "is the story scary?" I do want to revisit it, it's fabulous!! We will want to include ALL of your questions as we go in the heading, so fire away!!

    This little piece has had more written on it, books, dissertations, papers, etc., than it’s possible to imagine, and I hope that we will not miss a trick, but the real “trick” is what you, the reader, comes away with, and if you find this experience enriching. With the company assembled, I don’t see how it can NOT be “one for the Books,” so let’s get started!

    First off, as you can see, the piece is divided into 12 “Parts” I find it impossibly difficult to read on the internet, and have printed it out. Are any of you reading it in a book? If so, how many divisions do YOU see in your text? I am concerned and confused because it’s stated that the author herself put those lines in the text to divide it, but some analyses state there are 5 or 6 divisions and I see 12.

    Can anybody shed some light on this incongruity?

    Each of these Parts is felt to be a mini story, with its own plot, rising and falling action and climax, and sometimes and sometimes not denouements or summing up elements. Some sections may be arranged differently and these may be for a reason, let’s watch, let’s watch and wait through about 6 days of reading and see what all we can spot here? Each section may contain a change from the previous one, and sometimes not, at the end, supposedly you can look at the end of each chapter and see the change, we will want to watch carefully each mini story and see IF this theory holds true? We will want, EACH OF US as individual readers here, to watch for ourselves, this one is all YOU.

  • I think the best method of attack here lies with YOU. In order to assess change, we must first establish our own position AS a reader? AS a reader, just like you would do if you read it alone, let’s take the first two Parts initially today and let’s ask each of you to watch for change and to reflect on:

    In the movie Batman, Jack Nicholson's character The Joker set himself up for all times with his rendering of "Who do you TRUST? Who do you TRUST?"
  • 1. What is your own gut feeling about the speaker of the piece in the first two “Parts?” Who do you trust here, the speaker or the two doctors cited? IS this woman “sick?” We will ask YOU to come to YOUR own conclusions and ask what elements in the first two chapters support your position? We will ask you to make a stand and then watch and see if your position changes or not, that takes courage, let’s give it a go!

  • 2. The narrative is presented in the First Person (“I”) but what/ who is the intended audience? What form is this? Is it a diary?
  • 3. “am absolutely forbidden to ‘work’ until I am well again.” (Part I) What “work” does the narrator do? Is there an explanation? Is there any other unexplained element you are curious about?
  • 4. The Yellow Wallpaper is the title of the piece, how does that tile relate to the story?
  • 5. “And when you follow the lame uncertain curves for a little distance they suddenly commit suicide…”
  • The first two Parts are full of fantastic, spooky, Gothic images which add wonderfully to the atmosphere of the piece, can you identify one that you thought particularly set the tone?

  • Here a curve “commits suicide,” which is an example of the literary device called personification, when something inanimate takes on human characteristics. Do you see any other examples of literary devices in the first two chapters?
  • What effect do these descriptive images have on the story?

  • 6. “Ethically engaged fiction” raises important questions but does not undertake to suggest an answer. (www.ksu.edu/english...) Are there any questions nagging you in these chapters or coming chapters which the author does not answer?

    We know that there are many other issues we will raise such as feminist issues, societal issues, medical treatment issues, Gilman’s own life and history, but we have time to get to all of these in their due, let’s BEGIN this morning with YOU, what is YOUR gut feeling about this writer and will you take a stand? Who do YOU trust here?

    I envy those of you reading it for the first time, to be able to read it with us. Those of you reading it for the 100th time, I hope you find something new and remarkable to take away with you, let's DISCUSS!!

    ginny
  • ALF
    November 1, 2003 - 08:08 am
    This novel has an element of spiritual suicide to it. Now, I don't know if that is MY own thought or I read this somewhere but it's a side note that I made as i read thru it. I printed the story out after I read it for the first time on the net and have reread it with interest a dozen times since. Boy, do we have a winner here as are introduced to the theme-- which I believe is the struggle of our protoganist against all of nature (her queer "hereditary estate"), herself and others (John, the husband.) She definitely wishes that we see John as she does, "he laughs at me," she tells us, but "one expects that in marriage". This is her first revelation of oppression. Immediately I take umbrage with ole John-boy who is too practical, impatient, scoffs at her and a high-falouting MD to boot, who doesn't even believe (in her opinion, that she is ill.) She even throws in the brother who consults and agrees with ole John-boy. Part 1 is highly charged with conflict; What is one to do, she asks us? She is in full disagreement with the boys and gives us a clue by telling us that she "fancies" excitement and stimulation, as well as change. (heck, who doesn't?)

    This chick is a Freudian marvel: she's suppressed, oppressed and depressed. How the heck many times is it written John says? By the third page I frankly would like to choke John on his next word.
    In lieu of dwelling on "her condition" she introduces us to the inanimate (or is it??) object- the house. As Ginny says, this is personification and obviously she needs to externalize her emotions. The mansion "stands alone, with hedges and gates that LOCK." hmm-m all of a sudden I felt this women has been barred passage to life.

    She sees herself as a fixture, alone and brokenakin to the greenhouses. LOCKED- she's entwined within herself, grappling to peek thru her bonds. She senses there is something wierd about the house and she is afraid. Now, my question is why is the word DRAUGHT capitalized in this story? It also means a game of checkers, doesn't it? Is this a game? A game of control, planning, strategy and "checkmate" with ole John-boy? Am I reading too much into part 1? Oh, I love this story.

    annafair
    November 1, 2003 - 08:35 am
    With almost the first sentence I knew this would not be a "GOOD" story with a happy ending. It is almost like a musical piece ..starts out a bit slow and then the gets louder and in the end a great crash of cymbals and finally ...quiet.

    Like Alf I disliked John from the very first...I wanted to tell the writer ..forget him...do what you want, whatever that might be. I dont see myself here because I would have left someone so pompous and dictatorial. But I do see some of the women I have known. One who when she was widowed examined every idea or suggestion with " I dont think George would want me to do that" Perhaps she didnt want to do it herself but she became a recluse and I wanted to shout at her ..>GEORGE IS DEAD!

    Will be so interested to see how others feel...and yes she could be suffering from post partum blues. Wil be interested in what others see and feel...anna

    YiLi4
    November 1, 2003 - 08:41 am
    I think that analogy to a musical piece is wonderful.

    Well let me be the odd one out- when I first read Wallpaper, I too, jumped on the husband and had great empathy for the wife. But now these many years later I am immediately struck by the 'conversation' the narrator has with us- a bit detached- the "music" is to me a cross between ethereal and sedating. Ahh sedating! But I wonder if even back when this was written, the author was the addressing the modern "women are from venus, men are from mars" gap. It is possible that her husband is not so evil- perhaps he believes he is taking good care within the expected roles of his manhood and his professional station- ?

    Diane Church
    November 1, 2003 - 08:47 am
    I thought the description of the garden as being "...large and shady" was odd. A SHADY garden? And I wondered about the gates being locked when it was already suggested that the place had not been lived in for some time. WONDERFUL choice for a read so close to Halloween! I haven't decided if I think the narrator is just a total wimp or if she really is under such control by John...and her brother.

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2003 - 09:36 am
    Not many people with mental illness have insight into their condition. Those with insight are much easier to treat as they will cooperate with their doctors. I feel this woman does have post natal psychosis. She does not really believe she is ill. She says she is not allowed to look after the baby. Perhaps in the time this story was written the medical fraternity did know that women have harmed their babies and her husband the doctor is protecting the baby. Her first impression of the house is fanciful. All of the first part of this story adds up to the thoughts of an ill woman.

    Hats
    November 1, 2003 - 10:00 am
    I feel that each person in the story is trapped in that period of time. This entrapment leaves the woman without the chance to use her creativity. This is why she sees the woman behind bars in the wallpaper. Her writing would have been a wonderful catharsis.

    YiLi4, I do not blame the husband either. I like the way in which you put your thoughts. "...he is taking good care within the expected roles of his manhood and his professional station- ?"

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2003 - 10:09 am
    The husband was probably just putting into practice the treatment for the illness which was in vogue a the time.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2003 - 10:20 am
    I can't seem to find the divisions you mention in the text online, GINNY, so will ramble on about this story for a while.

    The author very cleverly sets a mood and a tone to this piece early on. "Why should it (the house) be let so cheaply" and "so long untenanted"? It's haunted, this house, or is the narrator?

    "John is a physician", and that's perhaps why she doesn't get better faster? Hmm.

    She's told she is depressed and has a "mild hysteria". I can remember, before PMS became an acceptable term and a recognized condition that pain from fierce headaches I had before my period at one time, irritability, a short temper for a day or two, all the symptoms I was experiencing were called "hysteria" by doctors. I am not an M.D. or a psychologist, so there's no possible way I can diagnosis our heroine's condition. It does, however, more than annoy me when doctors have taken, or take, numerous complaints and lump them under the heading of "hysteria" when it comes to women.

    Gilman apparently had a bout with severe mental illness at one time, and is quite possibly describing some of her own experience here, or at least some of the way she felt. The room itself, which the doctor insists his wife must be in, is a symbol of the trapped feeling that comes with depression you can't shake that goes on and on, making you physically weak and shaky mentally. (I don't want to say incompetent here.) The bars on the windows, the gate at the stairs -- imprisoned is how she felt, not just because she was consumed by her illness, but because her husband put her where she is physically.

    I say these things confidently because I have experienced them. I know for fact that in such a state of mind and body that it is possible to become obsessed with something -- a sound, a color, something that seems to be driving you crazy, as the yellow wallpaper appears to be doing to this woman.

    There was a time in my life when things piled up and got to me. I had three children running around, only two hands, and only one workable leg that wouldn't allow me to run after the kids when they faced some kind of danger.

    We'd settle down in a place, and just when the kids and I began to adjust to this one, we'd be transferred somewhere else and go through more adjustments to a strange and different place and new and different people, with often a change of culture, if you know what I mean.

    After a few years of this, without much time or chance to do much of anything for myself that I enjoyed doing, like play music, paint, or whatever it was, I became terribly discouraged and depressed and ended up in the locked ward of a hospital for 10 days.

    This was over forty years ago, and I'll tell you the doctors I saw and my husband all behaved much the same as the physician in this story. I had told my husband over and over that what I needed was a vacation, some time away from the stress on me and the physical difficulty of just trying to keep up with the kids and the work I had to do. Part of the stress was having a husband who travelled all the time for his job and being left alone to cope with everything. Like the narrator, I really knew what was best for me, and my request, like hers to be in a downstairs room with roses growing outside the window, was refused.

    While in this locked ward, I observed many people who were there for various reasons, including one woman who was there for drug addiction. She was put in a padded cell, and I was "lucky" enough to be in the small room where that cell was, and watched her through the window in the door of the cell, and listened to her go through withdrawal.

    After two nights and a day of this, a doctor came in and said he'd misdiagnosed my condition (Oh, yes!), that I was not a danger to myself or anyone else, and I was let out into a much bigger, much friendlier, more open area of the ward.

    There I met a woman who was going through post-partum depression, and I had some long talks with her about what she was going through, which was not the same as what is happening to the narrator of this story. The solution to her problem was electric shock treatments. The world was, and is still, to a certain extent, in the dark ages as far as mental illness is concerned.

    I found out even more about attitudes about mental illness years later when I struggled to get proper care for my son, who was subject to psychotic episodes after a head injury in an accident. He had no health insurance and a mother whose income was not large enough to buy the kind of care he needed. After three years of a hard fight, I managed to persuade the government to give him a disabiity allowance and Medicare. With insurance available to pay expenses, my son received much better care in the hospital and out. I have seen both sides of the coin, in other words.

    Truthfully, I have read this story with a bundle of experience under my belt, enough that I identify with the character and what she's going through with her illness and the people who resist and won't hear what she's telling them very, very well. I may have more to say about these things as we go along.

    DIANE, the English speak of what we call the "back yard" or the "front yard" as a "garden". I believe that's what she meant.

    Mal

    ALF
    November 1, 2003 - 10:52 am
    Didn't they used to treat this with Laudlum? a morphine opiate? Do you think John-Boy is slipping her sedation? Heck, no wonder this gal is hallucinating, I would too.

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2003 - 10:53 am
    I don't think the husband was being deliberately obtuse. He was just going along with the thoughts of the medical profession of the day.

    Mal -having experienced both sides of the fence - being a patient and looking after a patient sometimes the patient does not understand their condition and resists treatment because "there is nothing wrong with them" They may even believe the doctors or their caregiver are trying to do them harm. They may think that a little rest is all they need or they are overtired. Most of the people I know with post natal depression have been treated successfully with drugs. I had undiagnosed post natal depression for more than a year. The drugs they used in those days which I was given when I was diagnosed transformed me into a walking zombie. However they kept me out of the hospital and after 18mths I knew I did not need them any more. The new drugs are much better. There is a big difference between the baby blues and PND.

    Also I do not see divisions in the story but then I am not a literary theorist! I know little about the way literature is dissected by experts. I have to be honest and say I never took a great deal of notice of the technical side of literature study and felt it was sacrilege to dissect someones baby! I felt I had no right! To me a writer does not deliberately construct a novel or a story using clever techniques. Writing comes from the soul. When we did The seven sisters I thought it was spoilt because of the writer trying to be too clever and get one over her scholarly sister.

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2003 - 11:01 am
    ANDREA, laudanum was very commonly used for "female" complaints. It is a morphine derivative, and, of course, would cause hallucinations. Morphine, of course, is made with opium. I found a wonderful article on the web once, written by a woman who was addicted to laudanum in the 19th century.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2003 - 11:31 am
    I found this interesting tidbit HERE while doing a search for the piece written by the laudanum addict in th 19th century, which I mentioned earlier.

    "1884 Sigmund Freud treats his depression with cocaine, and reports feeling 'exhilaration and lasting euphoria, which is in no way differs from the normal euphoria of the healthy person. . . You perceive an increase in self-control and possess more vitality and capacity for work. . . . In other words, you are simply more normal, and it is soon hard to believe that you are under the influence of a drug.' [Quoted in Ernest Jones, *The Life and Work of Sigmund Freud, Vol. 1, p. 82]"

    BaBi
    November 1, 2003 - 02:01 pm
    I was amazed to find so many posts already up on Day 1 of this discussion. GINNY, you really stirred the pot on this one.

    I find myself extremely angry with the husband/doctor. I don't doubt he loves his wife, but he can't be bothered to follow thru' on his promises to change the things that really disturb her. He promised to do something about the wallpaper that got on her nerves so badly, but didn't. She urged him to move downstairs; he not only refused to do that but kept sending her back upstairs to 'rest'. He is so smug with his expertise as a doctor, yet he hasn't a clue when it comes to coping with emotional disorders. Physically, she appears to be improving, so obviously he is doing everything right...in his own eyes. She just simply needs to be firm, and not 'give in' to her notions. I simply want to shake the man 'til his eyes cross! ..BAbi

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2003 - 02:18 pm
    Babi - don't blow a fuse! We are looking at this situation in hindsight we have to view it in the time it was set. The poor man thought he was doing the best thing for his wife. However if looking at a situation which was set in our time you would be absolutely correct in your indignation.

    fairwinds
    November 1, 2003 - 02:29 pm
    hi everybody --

    diane -- in thinking about your question about the shady garden, i thought of impatiens and other dark-leaved plants that thrive in such a place. perhaps "shady garden" was a metaphor for her situation.

    i will just tell you how i felt during the whole story. pissed off. i wasn't going to comment. but i'm so glad to have read your discerning message, mal. what an excellent way you have of explaining my frustration.

    Deems
    November 1, 2003 - 02:45 pm
    Thank heaven I did not live when this story is set because I would have been locked up in some institution for sure.

    John probably IS doing what would have been expected of a good husband at the time, BUT if he had the slightest tiniest bit of intuition, or even just a good ability to observe, he woud see that his wife is getting worse and worse and worse.

    I knew Andy wasn't going to like John the physician! Now how did I know that?

    This story makes me a little angry every time I read it. I have been clinically depressed and am here to testify that the very worst treatment for a depressed person would be to remove all stimulation and work (if they are capable) from them. The depressive tunnel just gets narrower when there is nothing to do but "rest."

    John, please notice, doesn't even want his wife to write. She has to hide the writing every time she hears him coming.

    Laudanum or other seditive or no, our narrator is simply going to get worse locked up in that barred room with an order not to work, not to do anything. Eeeeeeeek.

    Maryal

    Hallie Mae
    November 1, 2003 - 03:22 pm
    I only read the story once but here are two rather simplictic points of view. I'm not the most imaginative person in the world. (:

    1. The husband is deliberately trying to "gaslight" his wife. Taking away her baby was a particularly cruel thing. Why would he keep her in a room with torn wallpaper, wouldn't he want her surroundings to be pleasant? Wasn't there something about another woman who was his helper? Getting ready for wife #2?

    2. She actually is a madwoman and tore off the wallpaper herself and was a danger to the baby. He's keeping her locked up ala "Rebecca".

    Hallie Mae

    Faithr
    November 1, 2003 - 03:28 pm
    Women in our society this last (and this present) century seem to have suffered at the hands of husbands and M.D.s and psychiatrists, a terrible fate. I did. I was furious at my husband and slapped him several times and also left some scratches on him. Then I ran into another room to just cry and get over my fury. This was after twenty years of marriage and he had done an unforgivable thing in my eyes.

    He called family doc and I got a shot in the butt about an hour after the fight. I woke up in a city 500 miles away from my home, in a private psychiatric institution. It was near Hollywood and guess who was also there..hahaha Judy Garland but then she had hurt herself.

    If a man beat up his wife he might spend a nite in jail if she called for help but usually wifes don't. I spent 6 weeks in that place and had shock treatment for depression????Well it was effective in making me forget my fury, my intentions to punish him and divorce him, and why I was in this place.

    All the time that I was reading The Yellow Wallpaper I had cramps in my stomach as I was reliving a lot of my feelings toward my Dr's and husband at the time of that experience. This morning I didnt know if I could even comment on this story. After reading Mal's brave comments and the insight she and others have into this kind of situation I just decided to spill my feelings of rage at what happened to me.

    I finally got my memory back. It came gradually and all the five years left in that marriage I detested the father of my children but made an effort for awhile to keep that marriage. I weighted 90 pounds and could not gain weight. I had a lot of confusion, headaches and I was sure my life was going to end imminently. I was very ill and the divorce that followed should have happened the week we had that big blowup instead of me being in that hospital.Still time, and solitude, and reflection along with laughter heals and it finally did me. Now I have this off my chest I think I will read that darn story again. faith

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2003 - 03:39 pm
    I understand what Faith and others are sayinga about bygone days. Today it seems to be the opposite. To get an acute bed for a very ill patient is darn near impossible. Its hard for caregivers to look after these people safely at home. I know I have been a caregiver!

    Lou2
    November 1, 2003 - 04:38 pm
    I've printed the short story from the sight above... I'm not sure what I'm looking for as far as "markers" for different sections of this work. Can someone help me here? I've purposely not read the posts past Ginny's initial post this AM since I haven't finished reading. I'll read YWP tonight and check in the AM for your help... Hate it I'm so slow... Thanks.

    Lou

    annafair
    November 1, 2003 - 04:42 pm
    Sorry but I think the husband is typical of most males and especially doctors or professional men. The greatest gift my mother gave me was independence. And I was smart enough to find a man who could stand that independence..

    But I have had doctors that annoyed me and if I would have allowed them I would have been on drugs I didnt need...A doctor doesnt have to agree with me but he does have to value how I feel.

    Not for a minute do I believe this man doesnt think he knows best ..and is not listening to his wife. Yes I also wondered if the other woman might be #2....it is still with us as reading any paper or listening to the news would reveal.

    By the way husbands should listen too..and it is not one sided ..a good relationship honors the feelings and values of the other side. I just wanted to take this woman's hand and run as fast as we could away. anna

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 1, 2003 - 05:41 pm
    Only reading Chapter One and the opposits within the characters and the place are addressed. This story is about ordinary people who secure ancestral halls - already, with the first sentence it sounds like a the setting for a dark story. And then "fate" is thrown in - the inevitable events predestined by a force, doom, the power that predetermines events.

    Fate versus Science seems to be the conflict and as sick as it is fate wins...

    The wife questions why this ancestral hall is proudly declared - while she questions - something "queer about it so cheap...so long untenanted"

    "John laughs AT ME - one expects that in marriage" - not, with me or in spite of me but AT ME. With that we're all set up here for a story of an abusive marriage -

    Her gut reactions are dismissed since they do not fit Johns values which include: being labeled by society 'practical' - the see it, touch it numerate it (science) - he has no patience with faith, (hmmm I wonder if that means he is devoid of Christian faith in the unknown and unseen) horror of superstition, (sounds like those in Salem who labeled those with unknown hysteria Witches, now proven to have been an overdose of natural LSD that grew in the grain and was baked in the Bread)

    "He doesn't believe I am sick" - and since he is the "husband" with power automatically given to a man and especially to a scientific man, his high standing in the community is revered by "their" friends (no word of her having her own friends or support system) relatives (that whole dynamic would take paragraphs to outline, why they would believe him) in face of all this she is helpless. No battered women's centers during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Sounds like the typical community leader or minister's wife Battered Women's dilemma of today.

    He decides her illness - He labels it nervous (word to minimize all ills - remember even used to describe Battle Shock during WW1 then during WW2 changed to Battle Fatigue) depression - with hysterical tendency (another cheap shot word used to minimize - the power game says when you do not know, you hide your own inadequacy by minimizing the other and show the other to be less then perfect and therefore, wrong)

    The brother, another community icon - who follows the code of the day - which is do not listen to a women, she does not show or explain scientifically therefore, what she says does not count - if it counted then science is not valued but the old fashioned understanding of illness only cured by the church counts. Husband and Brother do not know why she is ill since they cannot see the cause of her illness therefore, it must all be in her head. The husband cannot see the images she sees in the wallpaper either.

    She is forbidden to work - she has no place in society now - she has been removed from her work which is the means we are esteemed for our value to others.

    Again, she knows at this point what is valuable to her - work provides change and excitement or stimulation. She is being denied healthy stimulation. She becomes fatigued having to act like a criminal or a fugitive when she wrote - she has no visitors and is even told by the husband how to think.

    There are two kinds of power. One kills the spirit. The other nourishes the spirit. The first is Power Over. The other is Personal Power.

    Books written on the subject explain, Power Over shows up as control and dominance where as, Personal Power shows up by mutuality and co-creation. Mutuality is a way of being with another person which promotes the growth and well- being of one's self and the other person by means of clear communication and empathic understanding. Co-creation is a consciously shared participation in life which helps one reach one's goals.

    The Power Over model is the toxic method of causing pain, of getting what he or she wants through the use of Power Over another as our Western Civilization was founded on this Model. Some of the symptoms of living and acting through this paradigm are pollution, potential global annihilation, hunger and homelessness, prejudice and tyranny. Power Over denies someones value and the quality of their life, does not dignify, respect, protect, and esteem so that we begin to loose faith in our own value and the ability to trust our own perceptions.

    The partner learns to tolerate abuse without realizing it and to lose self-esteem without realizing it. The victim is blamed by the abuser and becomes the scapegoat. There is no mutuality and co-creation in the Power Over model.

    And so in this story we can see and probably take any book on Control, Domination, Emotional and Verbal Abuse, the Abusive Relationship and go down chaptered list of characteristics like an index and match the chapters to this story.

    Boy do I feel your belly Faith - Faith you had the ultimate of experiences - so many still deal with these experiences as if in a war zone or the mental torture of a prisoner of war within the four walls of their home. Yep, this brings up many memories that when I get angry I get very "Practical" naming things and listing the facts. Ah so...

    camper2
    November 1, 2003 - 06:17 pm
    I believe John to be a Pompous A! He even discourages her from having the pleasant THOUGHT of people strolling down the garden path. Why? Because her imagination may be excessive!

    I understand the medical theories (or lack of them) in that period of time dealing with emotional problems were sometimes even barbaric but....wouldn't you think John, the loving husband, would at least PRETEND to show an interest in her opinions. Instead, he dismisses every single thing with his tut, tut, my dear attitude.

    Another thing. Did anyone note the room also had rings in the wall? Rings in walls were used for chaining, right?

    This book is Really going to recieve a lot of opinions. It has the ability to bring out the emotions too. I was ticked off after the first three pages!

    Marge

    besprechen
    November 1, 2003 - 06:43 pm
    I have been intrigued with the "teasers" presented for The Yellow Wallpaper and have spent the evening reading posts, following links, and finding more Do I need to register to follow the posts this month? Even though the story is strange, it is addictive and I read the story in one sitting. I will also listen to the play being read by actors to see what sort of ending they use. Very good selection. And very good discussions thus far. Also found the word to discribe her condition: neurasthenia. Wonder if the medical community recognizes that definition today?

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 1, 2003 - 07:14 pm
    Welcome besprechen - so glad you found us - please just post away as we read and discuss this together - you must be registered already or you would not have been able to write a post - you have done all that is formal and required - now just share your thoughts as well as converse with others posting whose thoughts remind you of something or that you agree with...Great having you join us...

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 07:26 am
    Good HEAVENS what an absolutely SMASHING beginning, thank ALL of you for your wonderful posts!!

    As I normally only come in once a day we will have to rely totally on you all to carry the conversational ball along and you have done that fantastically, and welcome, BESPRECHEN! We are delighted to see you here, and WELCOME, FAIRWINDS!! (is it YOU? YAY) FAITH!!!! and CAMPER2!!! as well: this is just super!

    Let's begin immediately by looking at what you have said before introducing any new points!

    I do want to thank you all for your wonderful response to the questions above, you've all done a super job with who do you TRUST, and now today we need to stick our necks out further and answer this one, because it's important if we're to see change in the story:
    DO you or DO you not think that she is sick?
    . Dare to declare!

    I shall prod you gently! Hahahaha

    ALF (Andrea), "spiritual suicide," now I like that. And you identify as one of the themes, the struggle of our protagonist against all of nature, herself, and others. I would like to get up a list in the heading of what we all think the THEME is? We have read the entire piece, let's give our own thoughts as we go and then if we have to revise them, we can. Great point!!

    Ok and you point to one expects that in marriage, as the first "revelation of oppression."

    I don't know what you call it, maybe Maryal will help us out here, or even IF there is a name for it, but this author's technique of suddenly slipping in things which are shockers or tell a different story is really something? It reminds me of that story about the two guys who met on the road and the one guy was telling well yes I lost a shoe, that was when the house burned down, after…remember that thing? This reminds me of that.

    Oh good point on JOHN SAYS in the text. Oh good point on the "inanimate or is it" object the house, boy Andrea you were in fine form yesterday, you see it as externalizing her emotions? So she's projecting on the HOUSE?

    That is something I did not pick up and may be important!

    Yes and the standing alone and locked gates, let's get up a list of the strange things you all have mentioned.

    Hooo boy on your question here:
    Now, my question is why is the word DRAUGHT capitalized in this story? It also means a game of checkers, doesn't it? Is this a game? A game of control, planning, strategy and "checkmate" with ole John-boy?
    THAT one's going in the heading, count on that, I have no idea!

  • OK Andrea I can sense your anger at John and you've identified that you're angry at HIM but can you say whether or not at this time it's your sense that she IS ill or not? She says not? What do you say, a nurse?

    Annafair, so you had a sense right from the beginning that the story would not have a good ending, what were some of the elements or foreshadowing that gave you that feeling? So you are saying that perhaps she does suffer from postpartum depression? So you would say, I need to get up a chart in the heading, she IS ill?

    In an interesting aside, I do have a copy of, thanks to Marvelle, Gilman's own diary about her own experience following the birth of her own child. It's a bit different: to wit:

  • Saturday May 2nd, 1885

    The first anniversary of my wedding day. I am tired with long sleeplessness and disappointed at being unable to celebrate the day. So I cry. Walter stays till 12. Belle comes and cleans up for me as usual. I send her for flowers to beautify our little house and sres myself in black silk, jersey, and yellow [!!??] crape kerchief. Haven't been "dressed" before in months. Belle is astonished. Walter brings me lovely roses.

    Friday May 8th, 1885

    A fine scare with Miss Baby. She slips off my hand and gets her face under water a moment. Frightens her and me too. Hard day in consequence, she restless and cryful, I tired. Mrs. Westcott comes in at nightfall and revives me much.


    more….
  • Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 07:40 am
    OK Lou asked a question about the "divisions," and I now have a copy of the text in book form and the divisions are not the same as in our Internet text so I need to ask you all to please find these places and tell us where the divisions that the author herself placed IN the text are? She drew a line across the text to divide sections which in themselves are mini stories, so we do want to know WHERE she drew them, can some of you help here?

  • The first line is after the words until I am well again
  • The second line is after the words, great slanting waves of optic horror, like a lot of wallowing seaweeds in full chase.
  • I am not seeing any other lines. Therefore I am even more confused about where the critics refer to the five sections, we have 12, do any of you have the copy in other than this internet version, this is quite strange and I wish to understand it?
  • Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 07:54 am
    YiLi, I love your focus on the "conversation" the narrator is having with us, and your ambivalence on the husband and his role. Do you think she is sick? Why or why not? In these first two sections? You seem to think she's manipulating us?

    Diane, oh good point on the shady, shady implies gloom, locked gates, I agree, ISN'T it a super choice for Halloween reading!

    Now you seem also divided, do you think, she says outright in her very first page, "You see, (who is she talking to there) he does not believe I am sick!"....what does Diane think? Do you think she IS or is not "sick?"

    OK Carolyn does think the narrator has post natal psychosis, (she is sick). Thank you for that, now will you personally as we read this examine every discovery and put it against your own diagnosis?

    I am going to say, having read the entire thing something that will surprise you but since Carolyn went out on a limb I am going to, also, (we can swing out there happily hollering like that …what was that Chinese movie where they danced in the treetops?) Hahahahaha….anyway I am going to say she is NOT sick? At all. Not now. Now I am going to have to defend that position vigorously, but I look forward to it in this company!

    That's what good book discussions are about!

    Hats, good point on the trapped and you are seeing ALL of them trapped, which is quite interesting.

    Now you're not blaming the husband but what does Hats say? Is this woman sick at this point? Or not? Why?

    Malryn, good points on the cheaply let and untenanted house!

    What a story you tell and did you know those electric shock treatments, once condemned as horrific, are now coming back?

    Good for you championing your son!

    Now when you say "what she's going through with her illness," may I assume you are saying that you feel she IS ill at this point?

    Oh good point Andrea on the Laudanum or however it's spelled, my book says the "phosphates or phosphates" were "salts of phosphorus acid. The narrator however means "phosphate," a carbonated beverage of water, flavoring, and a small amount of phosphoric acid."

    Andrea, wasn't this about the time that opiates were in vogue and doctors sniffed Ether and also took as you say morphine? Didn't Sherlock Holmes take Cocaine?

    more…..

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 08:07 am
    Carolyn, this is an interesting point of view and I'm grateful you brought this up:
    I have to be honest and say I never took a great deal of notice of the technical side of literature study and felt it was sacrilege to dissect someone's baby! I felt I had no right! To me a writer does not deliberately construct a novel or a story using clever techniques. Writing comes from the soul. When we did The seven sisters I thought it was spoilt because of the writer trying to be too clever and get one over her scholarly sister.


    I, too, think writing comes from the soul but editing, I believe, comes from another purpose, and there's (and this is only my opinion) a difference. I am hoping to hear in the Wally Lamb discussion and to learn what that difference is. The author in this piece has obviously done some very careful work, in the way she has written and presented this piece of fiction, so different from her own diary, and I think she would like for us to try to understand it, and appreciate it, and while I may not understand what she did, or how she did it, I am anxious not to miss her point by uncaring, that's why I wish to try! I agree with you that a close look at Seven Sisters caused a lack of appreciation for the book, the writing was bad and sloppily presented, again in my opinion, but Remains of the Day, in contrast, no matter how closely you look at it, stood tall.

    Those not interested in literary criticism can really contribute in other ways, please don't be turned off, if somebody wants to try: we need to do both, if we possibly can, to add to our appreciation of what the author did, already I'm seeing things you all are pointing out that I missed.

    (I don't agree the writer was trying to get one up on her scholarly sister? In Seven? She herself is not considered a slouch in that department).

    LOVE to discuss this type of thing, thank you!!

    Good point Malryn on Freud and cocaine!

    Babi, I agree, we've stirred the pot and the stew is quite rich as a consequence!

    Good points on why you are angry at the doctor, haha and wanting to shake him, but do YOU think she is really ill?

    Fairwinds, I love your introduction of the shady garden being a metaphor for her own situation, thank you!! There's a lot of symbolism in this and I appreciate your bringing that out, I had missed that entirely!

    So you feel pissed off, are you then saying that she is or is not ill?

    Maryal, you do see her as depressed, then? I agree with you on the lack of stimulus, she even has to hide her writing, EEEK is right.

    HallieMae, that's the second time we've used the term "gaslight" here, what does it mean?

    Good point on the torn wallpaper and what it might mean, here we see the Wallpaper making an entrance, what part will it play in the story?

    OK you also have not declared, Is she or Is she Not a "madwoman?" This is fun, I'm enjoying this.

    more…..

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 08:25 am
    FAITH!! Good heavens on your harrowing experience, I can well understand knots in your stomach, bless your HEART, hard to believe such a thing could happen, and Judy Garland as well. BLESS your heart but you seem to not only have survived but triumphed if your posts on SN are any indication!!

    now I have to earn your wrath anew by asking you the $64,000 question: do YOU believe she is sick?

    Wonderful point, Carolyn on the hospitals of today, looks like it has swung the other way!

    Annafair, it's amazing to me the gut reactions of people to this piece, EVERYBODY is down on the husband? !? Maybe I should have asked is HE the sick one ahahahah no no I know WHERE you all are coming from, or think I do, but let's refine our view on HER for a minute, this discussion astounds me!!! (In a good way!)

    Barbara, good point on some of the foreshadowing of doom!

    Your post makes many excellent points and you raise this one, "Husband and Brother do not know why she is ill since they cannot see the cause of her illness therefore, it must all be in her head." I wonder, to ask you, and all of you, coming as I do from a family of doctors, could this, perhaps, be, a case of "Physician heal thyself," or "the cobbler's children must go barefoot." She herself describes him as caring (do YOU all think he is? I think not) YiLi thought and I think Carolyn did that perhaps he was following the precepts of the day.

    Could it BE that he has seen so many sick people he dismisses her own claims?

    Note her bed is in the Nursery?

    Note the baby is not?

    What does that mean?

    But HE'S there, too?

    Barred windows.<br.
    Bed bolted to floor and Camper mentioned the RINGS?

    Sounds like a torture chamber but he's there TOO?

    Does THAT mean anything?

    Barb, love this: "There are two kinds of power. One kills the spirit. The other nourishes the spirit. The first is Power Over. The other is Personal Power."

    OK Barb, will you tell us, aside from what you listed, do you personally feel that she is ILL?

    Camper, loved that about him discouraging her from even positive thoughts! And that he should have shown an interest in her thoughts, but he keeps dismissing them, WHY? Good point. WHY? Listen, you're ticked off, too! (I'm surrounded by ticked off people here) hahahaahah Will YOU say, is she or is she not sick?

    What are those RINGS for, Campers All? Love that name!

    Besprechen, no as Barb so correctly says, you are registered if you can post, and we're delighted to see you here, glad you liked the teasers, we must do more, if we can get people like you!

    OK so you say she has neurasthenia? What are the symptoms of that condition, so you do think she IS ill?

    Or do you?

    I very much appreciate the way you each talk to each other, and welcome each other and get conversations going in a civil cordial way even tho it appears we are poles apart here, the BEST kind of discussion, let's DO it! IS she sick or NOT? What are the reasons YOU think so, your thoughts are what matters. Can you hold on to YOUR thoughts as the piece changes shape, it's a real shape shifter, let's catch the wave.

    Section II in our internet readings contains some of the beginning descriptions of another strong character in the book: The Yellow Wallpaper. Here we have some very negative remarks, why? Yellow is usually the color of sunlight and sunny happiness, yet psychologists find that yellow rooms make people angry, you should never paint a room yellow and expect to rest in it. Are any of your rooms yellow?

    Do YOU have a picture in your mind of what that wallpaper pattern looks like? At all? Could you draw it?

    What IS it about it that's so awful?

    ginny

    Hallie Mae
    November 2, 2003 - 08:45 am
    Ginny, I noted the "Gaslight" reference earlier in the comments, I used it as a shortcut to what the husband may be doing. It refers to the movie, "Gaslight", with Charles Boyer, Ingrid Bergman and Angela Lansbury. The husband, played by Charles, is trying to drive his wife, played by Ingrid, mad.

    Some of the real life experiences of the participants in this folder are more hair raising than this particular story. Praise to you all for surviving!

    Hallie Mae

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 08:51 am
    I have never seen that movie, Hallie Mae, thank you for that! So he's trying to drive her nuts and he would be happy if she WERE nuts in Gaslight?

    I need to see it and I agree with you about the survivors in this group, in more ways than one, aren't we privileged to be in this company? I feel so! I always learn so much.

    And now...my own gaslight haunt, Miss Hallie, do YOU feel she IS sick or not?

    hahaahah hooooo

    The only thing better than a good book is a good group to REALLY discuss it with!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 08:53 am
    (I'm going to be sorry when I run out of that question, it's so easy to ask) hahahahaah

    ginny

    ALF
    November 2, 2003 - 08:58 am
    YES, I do believe she's terribly ill. I agree with the diagnosis that has been offered here- post partum psychosis. She is psychotic indeed- certifiable and I would be willing to bet ole John boy would never even consider institutionalizing this soul. After all, he IS a grand physician and having a wife who has "gone over the edge" wouldn't look well for him, now would it?

    This story is so well written that you can feel her bordering on the very brink of insanity. She gets angry with John-boy and "questions" her own sensitivity being caused by her nervous condition. Isn't that what they used to call it back then- a nervous condition? JOHN SAYS she must control herself (suppressed) and John-boy will not allow a room downstairs as she wished for. WHY? Would a downstairs room allow for too easy an observation or access by others? John "directs" and controls everything with his placating devotions. It gave me the creeps, barred windows, prohibiting life for a barred soul. She describes the color as repellent, almost revolting, lurid sickly sulphur tinted. Why would ole John-boy subject her to these circumstances? WHY? She's restless, in turmoil, restricted, inhibited and repulsed.

    Hello, JOHN, are you there? It never ceases to appall me how repugnant we treat mentally ill patients. When I was in nursing school I witnessed electric shock therapy for these type of patients. (I will not digress with any personal revelations but how can some one NOT want to alleviate these horrors that such women face?) She's losing her strength- - heck give her some more drugs!

    "John does not know how much I really suffer. He knows there is no REASON to suffer, and that satisfies him. "

    Good! Now we all feel better knowing that, John.

    Thank you pumpkin head (Maryal) for your vote of confidence.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 09:53 am
    Based on observations of the psychotic episodes of my son, I'll say that in the beginning of this story the narrator is not psychotic. A real psychosis brings total loss of reality. "She" has not lost contact with reality in the beginning.

    After each line -- which here I must imagine -- there is a worsening of her condition, as I see it.

    I do believe she is ill from the beginning of this piece, but for the sake of argument, let's say she isn't. Let's say the physician-husband has an ulterior motive for putting her in this yellow wall-papered room. The color of sulphur? Isn't that supposed to be an element of Hell?

    The room in which I spend nearly all my time is painted a cheerful color of yellow, by the way. I chose it because I need light and sunshine in my life all the time to chase the "Furies" away.

    If her husband did hide and imprison her in this room, would it drive her mad if she was, as I think, undergoing a fairly normal reaction to childbirth; that is, hormonal changes and the attempt of her body to get back to its pre-pregnancy state?

    I am handicapped; I was handicapped when I first met the man I married, I am handicapped now. A woman told me once that my husband must be a saint to have married someone like me: "You know, with that brace you have to wear and all."

    It never seemed to me that the fact bothered him, but I noticed that he put me in places where it was difficult for me to get out, and made it harder by not allowing me to drive a car. The last house we had was on a country hill; each of the few houses on the street were separated by at least two acres. There was a 400 foot driveway straight up which was hard for me to climb even before it snowed, impossible when it did. I was hidden from view in a remote ten room palace. Why? Maybe because the cute, vivacious, smart, talented girl he married had turned into a forties something matron with a brace on her leg, who knows? Did being isolated and alone, bouncing off walls all winter, do anything to my sanity? I'll say it did.

    What if, for reasons we can only imagine, Mr. Dr. Physician put "She" in the room deliberately to drive her nuts? Would she develop the terrible symptoms of psychosis we later see? I think it's possible.

    Were you ever sick enough that you had to stay in bed in a room for months on end? I was, when I was a child. Flat on my back for a long time at first, able to move only a few muscles and my eyes, I could only stare at the ceiling, the wallpaper, and what furniture I could see. They took on lives of their own. After looking hard enough at the pattern on the wallpaper, it would begin to move. It was friendly, as were the other things I saw, so didn't threaten me. The yellow wallpaper threatens "She".

    Have you ever had to spend long periods of time alone? I mean without seeing another person, except perhaps one for an hour or two a day, rarely ever leaving the space you're in? That's how I live today. Without this computer and access to people through it, I think I'd be in real trouble mentally.

    This is the situation "She" is in. Nothing to do, no one to talk with; never getting out; these are not conditions for maintaining stability, especially if you are an imaginative person, as she obviously is.

    Well, Dr. Physician has all the means at hand for destroying his wife, if he wants to. It's a slow process, and there are quicker ones for getting rid of a wife -- like divorce or murder.

    I, frankly, think "She" was sick from the beginning. As I said, I am not an M.D., and I am not a psychologist, so it is not possible for me to give a medical diagnosis of her condition. Some women, such as I, have a harder time delvering a baby than others do. After the baby is born, they are just plain physically sick, exhausted and weak, along with the hormone changes I have mentioned. Putting such a person into the type of prison "She" is in would not lead to restoration of good health.

    The narrator says "DRAUGHT", and I think she means exactly that. "She" feels something strange or unusual about the house. Her husband says it's a draught. "He said it was a DRAUGHT, and shut the window." He's right, and I'm wrong, as usual.

    Mal

    fairwinds
    November 2, 2003 - 10:05 am
    out on the limb again but here goes. she's a bit off, for sure. if the definition is being out of touch with reality. but especially in the societal context of when it was written. perhaps she'd be cut some slack today.

    sidebar -- my father was a psychiatrist consulting for the v.a. hospital in los angeles when ken kesey was writing "one flew over the cuckoo's nest". both of them felt at that time pidgeonholing a person with a name of an illness made it almost impossible for the person to "get well". studies were done soon after that time where psychiatrists checked themselves into hospitals under other names, where they were unknown quantities, and guess what? it became nearly impossible for them to act "well" enough to be discharged after they'd been nailed as schizophrenic or manic depressive. when this came to light there was a bit of a sea change.

    and this story was written much earlier. i think because the husband thought he was god (like many but certainly not all m.d.'s did and do) this woman got the short end of the stick.

    it's great to see you, ginny, and to see a few other familiar names as well.

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2003 - 10:16 am
    I am going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons. Mal says the woman is not psychotic. I say she is. She is a strong minded intelligent woman and as we had a family member with much the same makeup; when that person became Psychotic they were going in and out of reality not staying in the real world entirely and not departing from it. This is how I see this woman and that is why I believe she is sick. Do you understand what I am saying? When confronted with this type of psychosis the disordered thinking can be very confusing to those who have to deal with the patient. It can actually seem that the patients paranoia may have some basis for truth. This is what I am reading here and this is why everyone is so divided on whether she is sick/not sick!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 10:20 am
    A small correction, CAROLYN. I said she was not psychotic "in the beginning of the story."

    EDIT: You are very right when you say the patient's behavior can be very confusing to people who witness it and to the caregiver. I was very fortunate to have a fine psychologist advising me every step of the way during the years I helped my son. I stumbled on him when I applied to the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation to help me find a job.

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2003 - 10:27 am
    I see from the minute the woman begins the story her illness creeping up on her. I don't know whether allowing her to have her freedom to do as she pleased would have altered the course of her illness. I don't think so but her confinement would have added to her torment. As there were no anti psychotic drugs available in the day this story was written I don't know that they could have allowed her to wander about freely any how. She would have at least had to be confined to the house. I don't believe her confinement was a plot by her husband to send her crazy.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 10:34 am
    If laudanum were used as medication for the narrator, it would not allow much wandering. People hospitalized for mental illness today are not locked alone in a room unless they are violent. They are encouraged to mingle in a common room with other patients because doctors believe social contact is an important part of their treatment.

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 2, 2003 - 10:36 am
    Oh i LOVE this and even tho am not supposed to come back till tomorrow, let me throw ANOTHER cat in with the pigeons?

    Suppose, just suppose, she's not off at all? Would the way she's being treated cause it? Irony of ironies, the doctor is causing the illness?

    Thank you all for declaring, let's hear from everybody, what about putting her in that nursery, huh?

    Fun fun fun,

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 10:40 am
    GINNY, yes, the treatment "She" is receiving might cause psychosis if it went on long enough, as I suggested in my Post #84.

    "You're behaving like a child, so I'm putting you in the nursery where people like you belong."

    Mal

    Faithr
    November 2, 2003 - 11:43 am
    Well I agree with Mal that she was not psychotic yet at the beginning of the story. I felt this story was a narrative of the process going on that lead to the break with reality that we call psychosis. In the beginning she suffered postpartum depression and it was not treated properly. I blame her husband because of personal bias and also her personal bias in the story intends us to blame the husband, still it is true that the "caretaker" can not always know what is going on with the sick person especially if she is bending her will to the caretakers to appear a more pleasant "companion" - trying to meet "his" expectations. Being the good child-wife

    She is treated as a child and in some ways she is a child as she never seems to go against the "parent's" wishes. This is something I am familiar with. In the disagreement between my husband and myself I was clearly the person at fault as I am the one who broke down and hit. This was totally not expected in the game we had going in our marriage of he big cheese, me compliant. This was such a break with our normal way of interacting he decided I went "crazy" and so did our family physician. That is why I was put in an institution. There I was treated for depression and supressed rage will always appear as depression. The ultimate insult to the brain..electric shock treatments were their solution and I was a good patient and signed the paper. They quit after 7 effective tx(effective means the shock resulted in a full seizure.) because I was told later, I had lost to much of my memory. By losing the memory of my pain I again was the compliant child and what my husband did not count on was- I returned to full memory over time.

    The woman in the yellow room simply became more and more out of touch with reality. It is a chilling story but I understand it. I am glad that the husband had someone else taking care of the child. Faith

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 12:08 pm
    Oh, FAITH! Yours is a terrible story, far worse than mine. Thank God you're as strong as you are.

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 2, 2003 - 12:16 pm
    Faith, your story made me ache for you, just as Barbara's explanation of Control Power and Personal Power gave the answer why.

    I have found nothing harder to endure than a sense of helplessness, of powerlessness. My ex-husband was a manipulative man, tho' I did not understand that for a long while. My background and upbringing did not permit me the outlet of throwing a fit, or a few breakables. (I think he would have understood that; he came from a quarreling family.) It also did not permit me to 'walk away' from my marriage, especially with three children to consider. So I would find myself in painful scenes, hating myself for being able to withstand him. I would weep with frustration and despise myself for that as well. When I finally did stop allowing myself to be manipulated, my husband, like Carolyn's, could not handle it. He did me the very great favor of leaving me, for which I will always be thankful.

    Regardless of the times of the setting, I still find the husband/doctor of this story insufferable. Even in those days, there were surely men who were sensitive, intelligent and caring enough to see the needs of their wives and respond in a sensitive, intelligent and caring way. ...Babi

    Marvelle
    November 2, 2003 - 02:22 pm
    While I'm not able to regularly participate I did want to comment on Fairwinds' post 85 where Ken Kesey in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and her psychiatrist father both felt that "pigeonholing a person with a name or an illness made it impossible for the person to 'get well'. " That's a marvelous insight, Fairwinds.

    There is a connection IMO to that idea and what we see in Gilman's story but actually Kesey's acknowledged inspiration for '...Cuckoo's Nest' was Edgar Allan Poe's short story "The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether". The Poe story precedes Gilman's and is about labels or naming and how that label sticks irregardless of the behavior of the person. The judgment of a person's words and actions are all colored by the original label, especially when the label takes on authority over time through repeating.

    Poe's "The System..." is about an asylum and a person who says someone is a sane doctor so therefore, no matter if the doctor jumps onto a table and starts crowing like a rooster and flapping his arms, he is still sane because that was the original label. And a person who is labeled insane must therefore always bear that label, no matter the behavior. The roles were reversed through labels and people were unable to get out from under their labels, once the labels were repeated and established in the readers'/narrator's mind. The sane were insane; the insane were sane and all was confusion.

    This story was Kesey's inspiration. Who knows, but it might have inspired Gilman?

    Marvelle

    anneofavonlea
    November 2, 2003 - 03:15 pm
    because, I had never even heard of the book.Then I read it and it scared me.I wasn't sure why.

    I do have a question though, (sorry ginny know thats your department)but why would another human being set about driving someone crazy.

    Faith, your honesty simply leaves me breathless with admiration.

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2003 - 03:26 pm
    I have a friend who was married to a clever sociopath. He did put drugs in her tea and coffee and she was admitted to a Psychiatric Unit on section. (Compulsory order). It did not take long for the doctors to work out my friend was sane and she was discharged. She could not go back to the marriage and fought for years to get her little son. He was such a cunning man the authorities were scared of him. He was jailed for manslaughter for drugging a girlfriend who died from the results of the drugs. This is a TRUE story and the victim is still a close friend. He did not drive my friend insane but made sure she acted like she was insane by the use of the drugs. He was so clever and manipulative and I would say evil! Does this answer your query Anneo. There are indeed some monsters out there!

    anneofavonlea
    November 2, 2003 - 03:29 pm
    yes, and scares me more.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2003 - 03:38 pm
    ANNEO, good to see you here! BARBARA explained in Post #71 that it's a power thing. "Power Over" or domination is, I believe, what she said.

    Labels. Why does any one human being have to label another, anyway? I can see naming illnesses, but do the people who contract these illnesses have to be called by that name?

    When I was a kid, I was referred to as "the little lame girl". Some people called me "crippled". It's fairly recently that people began saying "handicapped", and I felt like a golfer because I don't feel or act handicapped in any other way except I don't know how play golf. Now it's "physically challenged", which I can't stand. Lame is much more accurate and acceptable, as far as I am concerned. (But then, of course, you have: "Shoot that horse in the head; he's gone lame.")

    Mal

    fairwinds
    November 2, 2003 - 03:41 pm
    this is all so amazing. these experiences and feelings.

    marvelle -- i had never heard about poe's story being the inspiration for "one flew over the cuckoo's nest". i do know there was some controversy concerning young kesey's hanging around the hospital for "research".

    faith -- it certainly sounds as though you found your way very well through the storm. thank you for sharing it with us.

    Deems
    November 2, 2003 - 03:41 pm
    I'm having such fun reading all the comments. This story really brings out all sorts of information, doesn't it?

    Faith said, "Well I agree with Mal that she was not psychotic yet at the beginning of the story. I felt this story was a narrative of the process going on that lead to the break with reality that we call psychosis. In the beginning she suffered postpartum depression and it was not treated properly. I blame her husband because of personal bias and also her personal bias in the story intends us to blame the husband, still it is true that the "caretaker" can not always know what is going on with the sick person especially if she is bending her will to the caretakers to appear a more pleasant "companion" - trying to meet "his" expectations. Being the good child-wife."

    I very much agree with Mal and Faith. In the beginning, our narrator (has everyone noticed that we never discover her NAME--she doesn't even have a name) is suffering from postpartum depression. She keeps a journal over time (I've forgotten now exactly how long--will have to go back to the story), and as time goes on she spirals down and down. By the end, sure she looks psychotic, but I'll discuss that part later. Don't want to give anything away for those who have not finished story yet.

    Carolyn--I've known a number of working writers and what you say about writing coming from the heart (or the muse, or some sort of river of thought) can be true at times. I have one friend who wrote a short story that Roger Angel of the New Yorker called her on the phone about. It was later published though not in The New Yorker. That particular story came to my friend all in a rush, almost like automatic writing. However, I also followed her as she wrote a number of other stories as well as two novels, both published. She worked on her writing very hard, much of the time. She did go back over it and insert patterns for the reader to find. Her writing was almost always carefully planned out and "crafted."

    That's one example. I could offer more. But maybe the most helpful thing I can say is that of the writers I have known, every one of them gets a kick out of having readers respond to their writing, sometimes finding things that the writer did not realize were so prominent.

    Discussing a story doesn't do it any harm at all and in fact frequently causes said story to stay in one's mind much longer and therefore have more of an impact. Just think how many people have looked carefully at different sections of Shakespeare in order to find new ideas. The plays remain unaltered. The words are all still there in their proper places just waiting for the next reader or performance.

    The woman who appears in the story and who is apparently helping John with the house since our narrator has been ordered not to do anything at all is his sister.

    Ginny--I find those diary entries you found for us (I've never read them) absolutely chilling. Especially the second one where the baby's head slips under the water. So much danger lurks in that brief entry. So much is left unsaid in both entries. Obviously, Gilman knew what it was like to feel depressed after the birth of a child.

    There's a very real reason behind postpartum depression as I'm sure you all know. Hormone levels are so altered by gestation that when they return to normal after a birth, all those happy hormones that have been keeping the mother in a more or less even temper leach away. Apparently when a mother suffers from these depressions, they get worse with each subsequent child she bears. And babies slip under the water.

    YiLi4
    November 2, 2003 - 04:13 pm
    Hmm is she ill or not- I think of Sontag's Illness as Metaphor that work puts an interesting spin on how we diagnose.

    I am not convinced she is self-ill; but might be nonself-ill. - and hence without a name. Perhaps diagnosed ill, because she is not manifesting the behaviors significant people in her life desire.

    And seeing the shapes in the wallpaper might be the manifestation of pre-existing or new creativity. Artists see so many things others do not. To accept the artist life requires courage. Perhaps this woman has a failing of personal strength, or will. "what can one expect in a marriage"--- who is the 'one' She does not say what can I expect in this particular marriage. This woman has accepted and perhaps reinforced her powerlessness. To take it further the entire situation might also fall into the realm of "what can one expect in a marriage"-- and who knows, locked in a room, going mad, might simply be what one expects. And the story might be a cry for justification- 'sisters(all women) what can be expected?

    Hats
    November 3, 2003 - 05:24 am
    I think this is a woman who lived under less than ideal circumstances. I don't think that anyone in the family intentionally meant to do her harm. Could she have been loved too much by her family?

    She was not allowed to write, not allowed to see visitors. Visitors and writing and other recreational activities or nonrecreational activities would have helped her to deal with each day. I think, like Mal said, that she did become sick or sicker as the story moved along.

    Val Gamble
    November 3, 2003 - 06:15 am
    I came in yesterday to have a look and read a few pages and saved it.I don't know if I'll have time to read it online or not but if I do I will join in the comments.Liked what I read so far and can imagine someone who appears to be confined to that room becoming obsessed with that wallpaper.

    Val Gamble
    November 3, 2003 - 06:33 am
    Now I have gone in and read the whole lot.A very strange story but I can relate to some of it.It was like sitting and discovering that you can see faces in the clouds or the flames of a fire.Alan and I sometimes play at seeing who can see the most faces in things.We have a floral quilt cover on our bed sometimes and it was him who first made out a face in one of the roses. It took me ages to see it but once I had I kept looking for more.This woman was kept in that room and had nothing to occupy her mind so she looked closer at her surroundings and saw things in the patterns.However, it got rather odd towards the end when she started crawling into it herself.I gather that she went a bit disturbed after childbirth.This is my first impression.

    ALF
    November 3, 2003 - 07:22 am
    I love the author's use of imagery. Visually we have this spooky room and wallpaper that conveys our Protoganist's mood . The landscape of yellow just doesn't have the desired effect, for me. I own a bright, canary yellow Focus which I purchased because to me it represented sunshine, happiness and life. The author did not wish to represent said emotions, for sure. Why did the husband refer to her as "his blessed little goose?" Did she lay golden eggs when she gave birth? In a short story each and every word must count and I pause over that moniker.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 3, 2003 - 08:11 am
    We do not have benefit of John's speaking voice - all we have is the writer's reaction and feelings about her situation. If we believe she is ill then she is not a credible witness - if we believe at core she is well but is in a situation that is gradually making her doubt herself and her own reality then we can see her situation as an example of Power Over that is denying her Personal Power.

    The irony of Power Over is the perpatrator know no Personal Power either and he avoids his feelings of powerlessness by dominating and controlling his partner. The perpetrator is determained not to admit to his manipulationand control. If he did he comes face to face with his own feelings.

    He simply must "win" a battle convincing his partner that she deserves the put-downs - in the story we are given to understand that John's status as a Doctor puts him in a "winning" position.

    Usually the perpetrator finds it difficult to see their mate objectively and clearly; he cannot accept her as an equal. As an equal he would have to ask for what he wants and that leaves him open for rejection. He would have to give up control and dominance.

    The perpatroter's worth is derived from one-upmanship and winning-over -- as we have John determaining that the upstairs rooms are superior for the advantage of air versus the downstairs rooms that his wife prefers.

    Manipulation versus Mutuality is another focus of Power Over. this is achieved through closing off communication as a response to a partner's attempt to discuss a problem with the message that the partner cannot do anything right. This is a covert way of saying, "I can't change and I won't discuss the issue." Another approach to manipulation is to be friendly while suggesting disastrous outcomes to the other's plans.

    We are programed to believe that Power Over is expressed as a direct hostile act where as often it is done as a solicitous expressin of concern said in a way to stop the partner from engaging in a personal pursuit. In Yellow Wallpaper we have our writer writing in secret, worn out from the secretive effort.

    Power Over is dominating and controlling behavior, controlling the partner without the partner's knowledge and is called "crazymaking!" Partners are left with a sick, hurt feeling that is never resolved. Sustaining power is the key to crazymaking behavior. Yellow Wallpaper is a wonderful story showing a partner's decline into a crazy view of the limited world around her.

    An abuser cannot control his partner and be intimate with her at the same time. Intimate love is fun, sexy, romantic, inspiring and depends on how often and how deeply you share yourselves with each other. There is no sense that John and our writer share intimate love. The choice of the nursery with bars on the window helps us see our writer's childlike status which is John's choice for her so that she receives the most beneficial air but says much about the quality of their sex life.

    Power Over negates someone's perceptions, experiences, values, accomplishments and plans. The partner may not even know what is is like to feel supported and validated in a relationship. Validation is a positive affirmation saying "Yes, I understand how you're feeling." or "is this what you mean?" or "I hear you."

    There is a litany of consequesnces to the partner that is based in the ' belief that her mate is rational and that understanding can be reached which keeps her in the relationship. That is the beauty of this story. The author has us hooked in the early chapters so that some think of John as rational, after all he is a professional, a Doctor, a man of science therefore we believe there will be in time an understanding. If you have not had an experience like Faith's the reader thinks it is incomprehensible for a women to go mad or crazy by what can appear as friendly manipulation and that a loving husband could never go to that extreem - I love the example given earlier of the movie "Gaslight." Perfect!

    The litany of consequences that are reflected in our story and are the behaviors identified in the story as her illness are similar to this list taken from one of Patricia Evans books on Verbail and Emotional Abuse:

    With those consequences who needs the victim to be druged!

    Power Over damages the spirit - it takes the joy and vitality out of life. It distorts reality because the abuser's response does not correlate with the parnter's communication. The victim belives the abuser is being honest and straightforward if she could only figure it out. Victims of Power Over consistently overlook the seriousness of their own suffering and hesitate to reach any conclusions. The more the partner believes the abuser will be happy for her, the more the abuser can trivialize and diminish her in order to be one-up and dominant.

    This quote from E.G Wells says so much about what our writer believes and is experiencing - the difference when these authors were writing there were limited rights for women and limited knowledge of Power Over therefore, God seemed to be the only Power available to a women.

    "A woman wants a proper alliance with a man, a man who is better stuff than herself. She wants that and needs it more than anything else in the world. It may not be just, it may not be fair, but things are so. It isn't law, nor custom, nor masculine violence settled that. It is just how things happen to be. She wants to be free--she wants to be legally and economically free, so as not to be subject to the wrong man; but only God, who made the world, can alter things to prevent her being slave to the right one."

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 08:53 am
    Your knowledge and wisdom on the Yellow Wallpaper subject has been so Beautifully put into your post.

    Yili Yes we must concider the era of the time, we have come a long way in just a few years of time.

    Val, I can just see you and your husband looking for the faces in the roses, kinda mystifing isn't it. Most of us have done that.

    Alf, My computer room is painted yellow so maybe that is why my computer gives me fits, smile. Humm I had Not thought about it till now but my webtv room is also a light yellow oh well so much for the computer and the webt being on the frits the last two weeks and I thought it was the solar bursts, Now I am comfued. (BG)

    I Thank All of you for your imput, Ginger

    Deems
    November 3, 2003 - 09:38 am
    This wallpaper is pretty old and probably needs redoing.

    It certainly needs redoing by the end of the story!

    I think that we are to imagine a dingy yellow with all sorts of curls and swirls arabesquing around. Maybe even dirty yellow.

    Certainly not the bright and cheerful yellow of a buttercup or Andy's car.

    Truly our narrator does become obsessed with that wallpaper.

    Just after the birth of my first child, I developed a high fever--was nursing and had to express the milk to keep it going because had to have antibiotic (almost rehospitalized but talked Dr. out of that) and couldn't nurse son for several days. Back in the Elizabethan period, I would have died. At any rate, I was at my parents' house and staying in the guest bedroom which was wallpapered with many small and multicolored flowers. It was "busy" wallpaper.

    As I lay in bed with a fever that reached 104 at one point, I kept trying to make those little flowers stay still, but they wouldn't. They kept M O V I N G. When I first read this story, many years ago, I remembered my own wallpaper hallucination.

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 09:44 am
    hahahaha I feel like I should be writing in YELLOW but yellow is hard to see, can you all see this?

    OK first of all I've been asked WHERE WE ARE, we ARE, if you're following along on the internet, on the bottom of "Page 2," which ends with the words, "I am sitting by the window now, up in this atrocious nursery, and there is nothing to hinder my writing as much as I please, save lack of strength." I found that strange. In fact I find a lot here strange, and I very much like your comments which I want to look at first today before directing our discussion in a new direction, you've all done such a good job with your first or gut reactions!!!

    Tomorrow we will take up the next "Page," Page 3. If you are using other texts, that PAGE ends with the words, "I think sometimes if I were only well enough to write a little it would relieve the press of ideas and rest me." Quite a contrast to the last ending, huh?

    I am not ready to completely destroy my theory of the "line," but I need to find that LINE in another text.

    OK starting out, thank you all for your wonderful reactions, now we need to ask you to HOLD ON TO THOSE theories and watch and see the elements that you think either exacerbate them or ameliorate her illness. That's one theme: her "illness."

    Let's look first at what you have all said.

    Andrea, you think she's definitely mentally ill, and you cite as one reason "John boy" hahaha will not allow her a room downstairs and you ask why. The downstairs room, did she say that he said, had only one bed, did I read that right? On page 2 we can see, "He said there was only one window and not room for two beds, and no near room for him if he took another." I found that somewhat strange, too.

    In our rush to defend Narrator who asked for the pretty chintz room, we might wonder why she wants a room to herself away from husband AND baby, and what that is showing.

    Does that make her mentally ill?

    All of you who see her as ILL, what specific things about her own behavior, (not what he says, as Andrea says later we are not hearing from him and as Barbara says she may not be the most reliable narrator, if you think she is mentally ill) so what specific things in her own behavior do you see as mentally ill at this point?

    I am going to agree with Malryn that she is not psychotic in the beginning, tho we disagree on whether she starts out sick, tho something is definitely going on and I agree she is getting worse. I think this is a good question that Malryn posted If her husband did hide and imprison her in this room, would it drive her mad if she was, as I think, undergoing a fairly normal reaction to childbirth; that is, hormonal changes and the attempt of her body to get back to its pre-pregnancy state? and will put it in the heading, Anneo, no, you ALL can ask questions at any time, thank you for that one, up they go asap!!

    Good point Malryn on her being an imaginative person, wasn't that sort of the theme of Stephen King's The Shining as well? Isolated caretaker goes nuts, possible haunting?

    Now this that Malryn said is important here: "Well, Dr. Physician has all the means at hand for destroying his wife, if he wants to." OK, those of you who hate John at this point, who see him as abusive instead of loving, keep this in mind?



    Let me interrupt here to say something strange? I had a very good lunch with one of our Bookies recently and in the process I learned that sometimes when people express the "BUT... Syndrome" it is misunderstood?

    WE have an issue before us, many issues, and you all are being asked IS SHE OR IS SHE NOT SICK? (to start off) And you express your thoughts?

    Ok your thoughts are as valid as the next person's, now for the sake of discussion, I may (MAY) come in and say oh BUT….. BUT…. BUT… what IF what IF what IF , that does NOT mean that I deny your right to express yourself or to have your opinion!??!! It does not mean you are not entitled to it or that I wish to convert you? It means pilpul. I want to DISCUSS your opinion by looking more closely at it, if you will allow that? It may take a lot of thought or work, on everybody's part. I want all of us to take a hand at looking at the very threads of it? I am NOT trying to change your mind, I want you to have your mind hahahahaha (PLEASE) but I want to look at this or that angle together, if possible. If you kindly permit. So please don't think that it's argument, it's……cordial saying but HEY have you considered XXX and YYY and what about ZZZ?

    so fun!

    Fairwinds, what an interesting point, maybe she would be cut some slack today and maybe HE would be more enlightened and let her? Is his pride here getting in the way? Wife rejects baby, famous doctor, what's the doctor to do? Take house for 3 months, change of scene. Amazing on the Ken Kesey and your dad, and the experiment, that should tell us something!

    And I am sooo delighted to see you again we may have to do another short story!@!@ hahaha

    My maternal grandfather was the consulting physician for a large mental hospital, as well, my mother grew up on the grounds but never talked about it.

    Carolyn, let me ask you something, you say, "She is a strong minded intelligent woman and as we had a family member with much the same makeup; when that person became Psychotic they were going in and out of reality not staying in the real world entirely and not departing from it." Let me ask you who she is writing or explaining this to? Do you think she is presenting the facts as they are to us, or not?

    Love it, thank you for declaring so articulately.

    more…. I want to get this much posted so far, if I have not responded to your own post I probably am not there yet, hang on!! But let's be thinking over some of these new themes you all are bringing up?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 09:45 am
    ANDREA, Silly little goose" sounds like a put-down to me. I don't believe it has any special significance or meaning other than to convey that Dr. Physician treated his wife like a child.

    BARBARA has found formulae that seem to cover what is happening in this story. I'll stick my neck out and say that there's no "formula" way to understand what mental illness, like that the narrator in this story has, is like.

    No "credible witness" would be able to know truly or accurately what this woman is going through. All he or she would be able to do is describe the narrator's behavior, not what's going on inside her body and head. The author has done a beautiful job of that. She was able to only because she had a similar experience.

    I have pages and pages of handwritten manuscripts that I have written during extremely stressful times, including the one I described here earlier. I have written myself out of some excruciating problems, just by using a system of written self-analysis that finally, finally made me realize where I had strayed off the track if I had, or told me what I had to do to solve what seemed like an insolvable issue. No one else but me could have written these things, which are often painful to read. When I read those particular accounts today it is easy to see how mixed up my thinking was; how hard I was trying to straighten myself out, and how often I did. The narrator was refused this outlet. What a terrible punishment.

    CAROLYN has said rightly that a person not in his or her right mind doesn't know what is best for him or her. I say that in the beginning the protagonist of this story was not that sick and did know what she needed -- a downstairs bedroom with roses outside the window, people to talk with, fresh air, and the means to write. The people around her decided that, no, she didn't know what was best for her, they did. They might have done this out of the kindness of their hearts with no thought, conscious or otherwise, of using "Power Over" manipulations.

    We have to think about what society had decided was right for people who had "nervous attacks" or mental illness. Society decided that these sick people should be isolated, out of sight, away from view. Why? I can think of several reasons. Among them is the fact that mentally ill people are hard to watch and listen to. They can frighten a witness and even make them very angry. Dope these people up to a zombie state so they'll sit quietly with their mouths shut, unable to talk of the demons that are nagging at them and scarcely able to move. Lock them up because society is afraid. Why, they might turn on you or something, mightn't they? We can't risk that either. Chain them so they can't take out their rage on the furniture and release at least some of what is haunting them.

    Protect ourselves first; never mind thinking about what the ill person needs. Look at them, ranting and raving off and on, not making any sense to "sensible people" like you and me. Do you want that in front of you in the living room or even a pretty bedroom downstairs where they might even see their child once in a while? Of course not. What if somebody should knock at the door and come in and see? Save your own skin. Forget the skin of the sick one.

    This attitude doesn't just annoy me, it makes me very, very mad.

    Is it possible that this woman is the product of her society and her time rather than a single man who has a support group of people who feel the same way he does? I think so. What a social commentary this story really is!

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 09:52 am
    AHA, there is MARYAL and MALRYN (two different people if you all are not sure hahaha) right together there and both with super points, Maryal on the moving wallpaper and Malryn with the Social Commentary Theme, more anon on you guys...

    I compose these using a split screen with your remarks on the left and WORD (because I can't spell) on the right and sometimes they run together, sorry about that. Malryn suggests that the husband is treating her as a child, this is yet another theme we need to be watching, thank you, along with the irony of the husband's maybe causing the illness he seeks to cure!

    Faith, incredible point here: "She is treated as a child and in some ways she is a child as she never seems to go against the "parent's" wishes." And again I am reminded, this morning, as in the Gandhi, of Dickenson:
    She Rose as High as His Occasion


    She rose as high as His Occasion

    Then sought the Dust --

    And lower lay in low Westminster

    For Her brief Crest --

    I want to stop now and get this posted as I'm tremendously enjoying reading what you have said, and obviously am working thru every word before I get to our new directions today, appreciate your patience!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 10:28 am
    Faith bless your heart, what a nightmare, it just gets worse and worse, so sorry and I'm sooo glad you're fully restored, bless your heart!!

    Babi, I am sorry that you, too, had such a hard time, bless your heart and all of our hearts here, by the time you get our age, some of us have really been through it!

    Don't you find it odd that Narrator keeps commenting on his great "kindness and compassion" on the one hand and then on the other showing us the opposite? Because she keeps saying he says he's doing it for her and showing concern but yet at the beginning of Page 2, she finds herself "unreasonably" angry at him, and blames it on her nervous condition. Hmmm.

    Marvelle, WELCOME, and thank you for those references to Poe, I think I would like to read The System and compare! Is it on the internet? Thank you for that, maybe Bill and the Classic Mystery folks would like to read it and compare here?

    Anneo, I am so glad this is new to you, it's something else, isn't it, thank you for that question, it's a good one and I'm asking Pat to put them up as soon as she can because I seem to destroy the headings when I do!

    Maryal, I like your points on the progress of the "break with reality we call psychosis." I wonder who is in charge of "reality?" We all seem to see things differently. If we had interviewed John in this piece or the…caretaker for the baby, would we hear something different?

    SUPER point on her not having a name, great point! Why not, do you think? I noticed, too, in her diary how she referred to her own baby. It's "Baby" did this or "Miss Baby" which I think is extremely chilling, but sometimes it was "Katherine." Sometimes "Miss Katherine," does the baby in this piece have a name, I forget, we'll have to watch for that.

    Thank you for your super remarks on your friend's publishing experiences. I very much liked this that you said,
    The plays remain unaltered. The words are all still there in their proper places just waiting for the next reader or performance.
    Waiting for the next reader or performance which IS what happens when the book comes alive anew in the hands of others, love it.

    OH and super point on John's sister being the caretaker.

    I'm glad you liked her own diary entries, they are all like that, as you say, so much left unsaid, but so different.

    YiLi, you bring up a good point about the artistic temperament, while I was at Oxford much was made of a particular painting whose eyes followed you wherever you went, and it would have been very easy in an isolated spooky environment to let your imagination run wild, (just as "John" suggests" gulp!!) and your THEME of a cry for justification, I like very much, thank you for bringing that here too, super entries here today!

    Oh Hats what an interesting theory now, could she have been loved TOO much? What a different light that places on her, and them? I love that slant, thank you, something to think about here. I mean, everybody keep remembering that SHE is the one who wants the room to herself? Also Hats brought up she is not allowed to write, and there again I have some problems. She IS writing. At the end of Page 2 she says there's nothing to hinder her writing. He hates for her to write, but apparently hasn't taken away her writing paper or implements, or has he?

    What is this PAPER she keeps writing ON?

    Has that occurred to anybody?

    Val, welcome, we are very glad to see you here, and I, too, can imagine being obsessed by the paper, the less your parameters in life, the more obsessed you tend to be with things, have you all noticed that? Oh I used to LOVE seeing faces in the clouds, but in that one you are TRYING to see them, would you say she is trying here?

    Again let me ask YOU all, could YOU describe this wallpaper to any other person, could you DRAW it?

    Andrea, on the use of imagery, this thing is "creeping" with it, hahaah isn't it. The "blessed little goose, " to me, is a diminutive child like appellation that you'd normally call a child. She's in the nursery, she's his child.

    Barbara, thank you for that masterful explanation of the Power Over, I think that would make a very useful HTML page for our reference! The intimacy element was very interesting and I'm wondering which of the two, Narrator or John seemed to be trying FOR intimacy?

    Also appreciate the very important list by the book by Patricia Evans.

    So you think Dr. John has pulled the wool over everybody's eyes but Narrator's? And the litany of consequences might suggest he has succeeded, even with her, even tho she becomes angry?

    VERY interesting HG Wells quote!! What do you all think about it? Thank you, Barb!!

    OK two more and then we can take up the tons o themes in this thing, hold on to your own Bag of Themes!!

    (who KNEW a short story could pack such a wallop, huh?

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 10:48 am
    Maryal, what a story and how eerily reminiscent of this one, the moving flowers!! Of course you had a fever of 104, and it may be a miracle you're here anyway, but we can't say Narrator has a fever all the time? Or does she?

    OK today before we leave the first two sections let's get up our list of THEMES that we see being developed. Several of you have mentioned more than one, let's get up a list and watch for our own patterns in the wallpaper of this story and see what these different themes may MEAN in the all over fabric of the story:

    Help me get up the list, what have I left out???:

  • Her illness
  • John's role: helping or hindering
  • Societal commentary
  • The Yellow Wallpaper itself
  • The medical treatment of mental disease
  • The writing
  • The infanticizing of the Narrator
  • Imagery and symbolism
  • Changing perspectives of the Narrator and what triggers them and what they mean and when they occur
  • Ethical issues raised
  • POV: Does the Narrator's story differ from our own perception of what she is presenting to us?
  • Male Power and Marriage

    What else would you add here so far?

    OK OK I left something out here, just did that off the top of my head, what's missing or what would you change or add??

    Let's look at the Narrator's descriptions of two things, the HOUSE and the YELLOW WALLPAPER for the rest of today.

    Do the Narrator's descriptions of the house change? And here's another question for you, this one from the Kivo book in the Harcourt Brace Series: Could this happen in 2003? Would a woman of today be likely to allow herself to be imprisoned? Barb's presentation seems to say yes. What do you think??
  • kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 10:53 am
    Who is she presenting this story to? I think she is presenting the story to herself. She is trying to justify her disturbed feelings to the part of her which is still clinging to reality. The person I knew was able to describe the coming and going of sanity to me in detail once they had come out of the psychotic period. They described speaking from their insane self to their sane self. The sane self talked the insane self out of committing suicide which was the intent of our loved one.

    YiLi4
    November 3, 2003 - 10:56 am
    Barbara, "The irony of Power Over is the perpatrator know no Personal Power either and he avoids his feelings of powerlessness by dominating and controlling his partner. The perpetrator is determained not to admit to his manipulationand control. If he did he comes face to face with his own feelings." Great thought, reminds me of lots of modern doctors I have known! Substitute the word patient for partner- and alas the story bespeaks a double whammy- so an interesting characterization for this author to create to get her theme across.

    ALF
    November 3, 2003 - 11:05 am
    She wrote this, didn't she, long after she had suffered from her nervous breakdown. Perhaps she feltthat she needed to give us a "birds eye view" of the horrors of her psychosis, by writing this story. Wasn't she incarcerated during that period? Is there ANY mention, anywhere, of her suffering the "yellow" sickness of hallucinations?

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 11:05 am
    Could a woman be imprisoned like the writer was today?

    YES! There are many women who live in a prison without walls. They may be allowed to go to work but every facet of their life is controlled by their partner. They will have been deliberately isolated from their family and close friends. They will not be able to do anything without the permission of their partner. They may not be subjected to physical abuse but they will be subject to verbal abuse and the destruction of their self image.

    I have a very close friend and this is how her mother has lived all her married life. My friend says "Dad is the gatekeeper and to see Mum we have to go through him if we do not please him we don't see Mum"

    Carolyn

    ALF
    November 3, 2003 - 11:11 am
    Great point, Carolyn and I agree that most unfortunately we have imprisoned women in todays world. No bars to see but they are held captive. Their "custodians" take them prisoners and they are "detained and constrained" by their protetors, guardians or wardens-- whatever they wish to call themselves. this story brings out a great deal of gut reaction doesn't it? Anger and resentment towards such "turnkeys" is he utmost emotion I feel right now.

    YiLi4
    November 3, 2003 - 11:11 am
    It is a dull yet lurid orange in some places, a sickly sulphur tint in others. I find these descriptions so perfect for the overall effect in the story- then we are caught in an increasing sense of a nameless protagonist...At first "he" meant to repaper the room, but afterwards he said that I was letting it get the better of me, and that nothing was worse for a nervous patient than to give way to such fancies... this artful use of pronouns, the slow distancing from subjects, almost like we are looking into a whirlpool-

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 11:33 am
    Carolyn, here's a toughie!! If she is talking to herself, why does she reveal at the same time to US that something other than what she is saying is happening? Is this a way of showing us her delusions? I am not sure that that makes any sense, just try to "translate it" the best you can? hahahaa

    I do want to talk today, for my own part, about the house.

    Notice the, I think Diane and some of you mentioned the little elements of description, notice in Page 1 that all seems quite pleasant and desirable. For instance on Page 1, the house is
  • a colonial mansion
  • an ancestral hall
  • "The most beautiful place!"
  • Hedges and walls and lots of separate little houses
  • A "DELICIOUS" garden. But all through this there is
  • "something strange about the house—I can feel it."

    Feeling something strange about a house does not mean that a person dislikes the house itself. Want to hear a real ghost story? I think it's oK to tell it now.

    We once bought a house that had stood alone for a long time.

    We were walking thru it with the Real Estate Agent, and I was imagining where this or that could go in delight when we entered a back bedroom of enormous size and I was stopped dead as if slapped, just knocked back and backed out of the room. And I sort of choked out at the Realtor "What happened here?" and she looked at me like, oh great, a Saturday and a Loonie all in one go, terrific, just terrific, (she was an older no nonsense type). I thought I saw stains on the floor and I said again what happened here a bit stronger and she said, " Nothing, that I know of." And then I said why are they selling the house and she said it's too hard to heat.

    And so on we went.

    (I had the house blessed anyway, being of that nature.)

    OK flash forward, the house came with a "ghost" (who never entered the house but who drove up at night with sound and lights and slammed the door to a vehicle and walked up TO the house, ) which became the family "ghost story," a cute tale for a winter's night but flash forward again. My mother moved to a retirement center in the same town about 17 years later and one day she was mentioning our house and an old policeman who had been in the area told her oh yes he knew it well, the owner of the house had committed suicide, in the back room, and that it was hushed up. That was another house, in what seems another life, but I understand what she means by "there is something queer about it, " and "there is something strange about the house—I can feel it."

    Barbara, to put YOU on the spot, in all the houses you have shown, did you ever feel strangely about one?

    Still, as I know well, you can have those feelings and still love the house and Narrator does, at first.

    On Page 1.

    By Page 2 the adjectives of description are changing, just a bit.

  • "I don't like our room a bit." (though the one downstairs had roses all over the window and "pretty old-fashioned chintz hangings!)
  • The nursery is "a big airy room, the whole floor nearly, with windows that look all ways, and air and sunshine galore." Sounds nice….

    Then
  • The "windows are barred…and "there are rings and things in the walls."

    Then
  • The paint and paper…is stripped off…in great patches all around the head of my bed…..I never saw a worse paper in my life."
  • The color is repellent, almost revolting; a smouldering unclean yellow.
  • Personification: the curves in the pattern "commit suicide," and "destroy themselves"
  • "dull lurid orange…a sickly sulphur tint…" (see YiLi above, Great Minds run together!! hahaha)
  • No wonder the children hated it! How does SHE know the children hated it?
  • I am sitting by the window now, up in this atrocious nursery….

    OK on Page 2 the house she was initially enthusiastic about is beginning to turn, smell and look sour, unclean, sickly. She says flatly "it was a nursery first and then playroom and gymnasium, " but at the end of Page 2 she is referring to it as a "nursery," and an "atrocious nursery" at that.

    I am confused here by what's happening to her, she seems already, like the character in the Haunting of Hill House, to be being absorbed by this house, note she knows what the children thought, she doesn't imagine, she knows. And what does she mean by her last sentence in Page 2, "and there is nothing to hinder my writing as much as I please, save lack of strength." But she already said, "There comes John, and I must put this away, --he hates to have me write a word." What does this MEAN that there is nothing to hinder her writing save lack of her own strength---is she tired?

    She says in Page 1 that "I did write for a while in spite of them; but it DOES exhaust me a good deal—having to be so sly about it, or else meet with heavy opposition." Is being tired a theme in this piece?

    Penny for your thoughts on any of this before we move on to Page 3 tomorrow?

    ginny
  • Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 11:41 am
    YILI!! YES!! I was composing and selling grapes when you posted, YES exactly!! "It is a dull yet lurid orange in some places, a sickly sulphur tint in others. I find these descriptions so perfect for the overall effect in the story- then we are caught in an increasing sense of a nameless protagonist..." YES and who IS this nameless protagonist?? Whoooo? or What?

    ginny

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 11:42 am
    When you are clinically depressed its like being drugged. You are deathly tired yet at night you may not be able to sleep.

    Hats
    November 3, 2003 - 11:52 am
    If I had to describe the wallpaper, I see it as a paisley pattern.

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 11:53 am
    HO!! You guys got a LOT of posts in there while I was posting, will catch up with you tomorrow, trying to think of the theme I left off that one of you mentioned.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 12:03 pm
    The Yellow Wallpaper was written in 1892, presumably about experiences the author had with her own mental illness before then. At that time the idea that husbands were autocrats was acceptable by society. Wives had to ask permission before they were allowed to do anything. They were treated as if they were childlike, mindless creatures who, if they had a will at all, did not have a free one. Once again we see society entering the picture.

    It's funny that this horror story is giving me a better understanding of my former husband. His mother was raised by an autocrat. It was the only life she knew, so she married one. The way she was treated by her husband was the only example my husband had. It is, therefore, natural that he acted the way he did toward me. He was not basically an unkind or tyrannical person, just as the doctor husband of the woman in the story is not one. He was playing the role of a man according to the rules of society, the only role he knew.

    Women had been kept ignorant. A woman's voting implied that she had a will of her own, so, of course, that was prevented, too. Lucky for us, there were women like Lucretia Mott, Elizabeth Cady Staunton and Susan B. Anthony in the United States and Emmeline Pankhurst in England, who recognized that women were discriminated against by society and the males representing that society, and decided to do something about it. These women fought to win us one of our greatest freedoms. By doing so, they changed the attitude of society.

    Though I was miserably unhappy for quite a long time, to the point of hiding in a bottle, I couldn't bring myself to leave my husband. How would I support myself? Who would hire a handicapped woman like me? Nobody. When I finally did get "out from under" I was proven right. Nobody would give me a job.

    This points up a fact about the 19th century, too, I think. Who would hire a woman who had been taught as a lady whose only extra activity and skill were embroidery and hemming handkerchiefs with tiny, invisible stitches? How would she survive if she left her husband if she did not have a recognizable, hireable skill?

    Any woman today who tolerates an autocratic husband does not win my sympathy unless her husband beats her into such a vegetative state that she's fearful for her life if she tries to leave. With the groundwork laid by brave women like those I've mentioned and others who followed, like Steinam and Friedan and others, as well as laws against discriminating against handicapped people, employers have to hire us, women on their own can earn a living, meager perhaps at the beginning and not what we've been used to perhaps, but the means to survive on our own are there.

    I don't know about anyone else, but it helps me to understand this story much better when I think about the slow evolution of women's rights and what was happening when Charlotte Perkins Gilman went through what she did and sat down to write about it. To me, it's just too easy to blame one man for the degeneration of the protaganist in this story. As I see it, there was much more involved than that, unlike "Gaslight", a different kind of story, which has been mentioned here.

    Mal

    judywolfs
    November 3, 2003 - 12:16 pm
    Faith mentioned that “Women in our society this last (and this present) century seem to have suffered at the hands of husbands and M.D.s and psychiatrists, a terrible fate.” I would suggest that people with mental illness suffered and sometimes still do some a terrible fate, not because they were (are) women, but because of the mental illness. And then Annafair said “I think the husband is typical of most males and especially doctors or professional men...Not for a minute do I believe this man doesnt think he knows best ..and is not listening to his wife. “ Exactly, Anna! He was a doctor, he knew how horrible it would be in an institution, so he did his best to keep her out of one, and tried to avoid the community shame and public scandal of mental illness by bringing his wife to a remote location and “hiding” her illness. Maybe he’s in denial, perhaps hoping the problem will resolve itself without anybody finding out. So – to the $64K question: Do I believe she is sick. Yes. Very sick. Alf, I agree with a LOT of how you expressed it in your post 83. About the rings in the wall – the narrator says she thought the room was used as a gymnasium after it was a nursery. Would that possibly mean some kind of exercise equipment? JudyW

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 12:51 pm
    Hasn't this discussion brought up so many interesting issues?

    I am enjoying each and every one of your posts.

    I am off to the supermarket to get some corn chips for Nacho's tonight. Ruths cooked from scratch Mexican bean mix is going to accompany the corn chips together with a good dollop of sour cream! ( Oh dear now I will get razzed about my cooking!)

    Carolyn

    ALF
    November 3, 2003 - 01:38 pm
    Malryn: YOU of all people lack a great deal of sympathy and empathy towards these beleagured women. You said:

    Any woman today who tolerates an autocratic husband does not win my sympathy unless her husband beats her into such a vegetative state that she's fearful for her life if she tries to leave.

    These are precisly the women who need our understanding. They are badgered into submission, some beaten and most of them fearful of their husbands continual emotional storms. It becomes difficult to think /do for themselves and they behave as rationally as "they" can, conducting themselves in the manner the said husband expects. They are emotional cripples and that's a hell of a lot worse than a physical handicap IMO. Compassion is essential and any one who has suffered emotional anguish should be more apt to recognize their position.

    anneofavonlea
    November 3, 2003 - 02:44 pm
    having suffered abuse and survived it, surely gives one the knowledge that there is a way out.

    So many women stay in abusive situations, even when a way out is offered, and it seems to me that a little backbone would be of assistance, rather than compassion.How do we help someone gain that, well if a person can be talked into mental illness, surely they can be talked out of it.

    I am a little ashamed to say that I have not always had patience with mental illness, as a practical person, my first thought is get up, shake yourself and get on with it.However if one has clinical depression, guess that is impossible.

    My dearest and most long time girl friend, suffers from a seriously depressive illness,and though for me the catalyst is thoroughly understandable, it somehow just doesn't fit with the person I knew prior to her collapse.

    This woman in this room with this wallpaper, has a choice, and are we suggesting that women are so weak, that any man can get a woman here, simply by being overbearing.Am I so wrong in thinking this woman goes almost willingly into madness.Can people hide behind mental illness?Are some people not simply victims?

    Sorry to be all questions and no answers, but this book really worries me, this whole notion of women still being controlled by men.

    fairwinds
    November 3, 2003 - 02:59 pm
    yes -- i see a william morris design in the wallpaper.

    just reflecting here on all your thoughts -- goodgoodgood.

    it's almost eleven here so i'm going to bed.

    poof!

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 03:09 pm
    Fairwinds you are getting very French! I can hear a French lady I know when she says Poof! Its a very expressive word.

    Anneo - Unless you have experienced mental illness yourself you can have no idea how it affects you. Believe me your friend may never be again the person you once knew but I hope you can persevere with the friendship. Believe me there is no way when you are ill you can just get over it. The mental torment is as a physical pain and its not as easy to medicate as physical pain. It would be lovely to just push the illness aside and get on with things, an answer to a prayer but sad to see it does not work like that!

    Carolyn

    judywolfs
    November 3, 2003 - 03:11 pm
    Anneofavonlea - Not everybody that suffers abuse knows that there is a way out. Really, even if they are offered a way out, they might not be able to see it. I don't think that necessarily means they lack backbone.

    How come you said that a person could be talked into mental illness? If somebody has a heart condition or leukemia, nobody would think they were talked into it.

    I totally understand your statement about being practical, about "get up, shake yourself and get on with it." That's how I usually react to learning about someone who keeps failing, or keeps giving up. Except some people simply do not have that capacity.

    I don't think the woman in the yellow wallpaper room has any choices at all. She is, I think, a victim - not a victim of her husband, a victim of her own illness. It's not that she's weak, it's that she's ill. Her thinking is severely disordered.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 03:22 pm
    Guess I deserved that, ALF. You thought so, anyway. Perhaps you should pull your punches until you learn the facts, hmm?

    Of course, I have compassion and sympathy for the women you describe. I was one, wasn't I? Good God, I didn't even know what my favorite color was or what I liked to eat when my marriage ended! But I allowed what was going on because I was afraid of the consequences that I mentioned in my Post # 126. I've gone hungry at times in my life, and going that route again wasn''t very appealing.

    Remember, help wasn't as available thirty years ago as it is now, nor was the idea of a woman in her forties leaving her husband of many years very acceptable at that time, either. In the eyes of most, there could be no other reason for such an act except another man.

    What I got when I went to my doctor for help and advice was a prescription for Valium because he just knew I was "hysterical" again. The minister of my church, a man, was unable (or refused) to understand what I was saying and was completely unsympathetic. There was nowhere else to turn.

    Today there are support groups that didn't exist that many years ago, and all kinds of help is available. I myself have dropped everything numerous times to help women find the help they needed, including pushing them to get it. That's what my lack of "a great deal of sympathy and empathy towards these beleagured women" brought about.

    Mal

    Faithr
    November 3, 2003 - 03:24 pm
    As the womans movement is still trying to move I think many women have not moved with the available freedom they should. Whether I have sympathy or not there are many women who still suffer the extreme control of the husband.

    In my own case I want you all to understand my husband was not mean, he never ever hit me. He did everything out of "love" and wanting the best for me etc etc. I contributed to the disaster in our marriage by being the child- wife which I really was at 14 when we married. It was in the process of growing up in my thirties that I quit playing the game. When he could not get his way , he could not tolerate the insult to his ego. I began demanding things from the marriage he was not willing to give.

    When I became enraged and I "beat" him I certainly was the one at fault and I accepted the blame. No doubt I needed to get away from him so when I got away I was not that angry about it, that is why I agreed to the treatments --just so I would not have to go home. When I did go home I persisted in growing up and becoming my own person so the marriage broke down.

    The treatment I recieved however was a sign of our society in the 1960. Now all these years later I often wonder how we could have changed our game. But I dont waste time in regrets. I have a good life for the past 35 years and mostly dont think of the bad times.

    I cant think there is "hidden theme" in this short story. Too me it seems a straight forward glimpse into the "process" of her deterioration and the personification of the nursery deteriorating is an example to me of a staightforward state of affairs in her mind. All that is happening is in her mind, her point of view, her own feelings and emotions. What she thinks of John and what she leaves out about her child and her sister in law is as pointed as what she describes. faith

    ALF
    November 3, 2003 - 03:35 pm
    Malryn, accept my aplogy if you do indeed feel sympathy and empathy for these women. That sentence did not sound that way to me and it surprised me as you have seen your share of heartache, like many others here.

    It just burns me up when people foo-foo the notion that these women have a choice. WE know that they have the choice the problem is- THEY don't know it. They have NO power, they can not see any alternatives nor distinctions. Many of these women are not allowed to consider options, mull over choices or seperate facts. They've been brow-beaten, abused and subjected to injustices for so long they merely accept it! I also know, it's like trying to help an addict or an alcoholic. I've been there. They can't be helped until they are aware and ready for assistance, from outside their "prison." It's not for lack of a backbone it's for a lack of insight. Our protoganist, IMO can't see the forest thru the trees. I feel she is non compos mentis! He agitation and nervous state will lead to a worse dilemma- a full blown pyschosis.

    This story hits the core of me.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 03:44 pm
    The protagonist in the story had a choice early in the story before she became a mental cripple. I am almost insistent that her refusing to stand up to her husband was caused by the way she was raised, and that was dictated by society.

    "Nice girls don't do that. Nice women don't do that. Listen to your elders, your husband, whoever, and don't listen to yourself because you're a lady, and you'll be punished if you step outside those genteel boundaries. You don't want to be 'common', do you?"

    When a woman is filled to the brim with this kind of teaching, she's consumed by guilt if she goes against it, thus refusing to make the choice that's possible to her. At least, that's what happened to me.

    Mal

    Hallie Mae
    November 3, 2003 - 03:50 pm
    Wow, what a lot of interesting comments! I agree with Alf about how some women fall into despair and are unable to see a way out.

    A friend's sister married a man many years ago who gradually controlled her through giving her drugs, like Valium, not hard drugs. Today she wouldn't have the foggiest notion of how to pay a bill, buy groceries etc.

    I picture the yellow wallpaper with big white flowers all over it, mainly because I had a yellow room once.

    What was the husband thinking when he said putting new wallpaper up would be giving in to her "nerves"? Now if that isn't nasty what is? Why wouldn't he want her in a cheerful, pleasant room? Was she the one who had pulled off the wallpaper behind her bed?

    Hallie Mae

    anneofavonlea
    November 3, 2003 - 04:06 pm
    But why? Why are some people able to be browbeaten.

    And as for why I said backbone, I meant support, perhaps the terminology is wrong, but surely it needs strength to get out of this situation.

    Carolyn have never considered not being a friend, but it is difficult to know how to be a friend to someone who declines assistance, for whatever purpose.Some people have horendous stories of abuse that dont result in mental illness, and I'd like to know why.As I said in my friends case the catalyst for her "breakdown" is obvious and easily understood, however in a family of 7 girls, she is the only one who has the depressive illness.They all lived the same thing, so why does one of the 7 end up mentally ill.

    Lastly, I was not criticising, merely trying to understand, I dont consider myself the enemy here.

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 04:21 pm
    Anneo - some people have a genetic predisposition to depression. If they live happy and fulfilled lives and have no triggers it may never surface. Everyone is not the same try to keep that in mind. Also with mental illness if one has no insight into ones condition one is unlikely to accept help. Try and have some patience and above all compassion for your friend. I can speak from the point of being a patient and also a caregiver.

    Deems
    November 3, 2003 - 04:23 pm
    My goodness. What a good choice for a short story that brings up a lot of "women's issues"! I was pretty certain that it would stir people up, and it does.

    Ginny, you asked what we would draw if we had to draw the wallpaper from the descriptions of it in the story. I have had my students do that--on the blackboards, three or four of them. Of course we don't have colored chalk and the descriptions in the story are hard to follow, but they create some wonderful interpretations. The one rule I give them is that they have to cover the whole board--this is after all wallpaper--and they are not to look at what the person next to them is drawing. Ooops, that's two rules, isn't it.

    There are pieces of information in this story that are dropped in now and again which are really very important for understanding the ending. I think that it helps to read the story through a second time because then some of these clues can be deciphered.

    Hallie Mae has asked a great question in the post above mine, "Was she the one who had pulled off the wallpaper behind her bed?"

    What do you all think?

    BaBi
    November 3, 2003 - 04:25 pm
    I can see that, Carolyn. Look at any group of siblings and consider how different they can be. There are unquestionably some genetic predispositions affecting who people are.

    And you are quite right about people not realizing what their problem is, and therefore not seeking help. I know now that I underwent a period of depression during the latter part of my marriage, but I didn't realize it then. A pity; I think it would have helped to know that. ...Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 04:47 pm
    Do you suppose the wallpaper looked like this? It's "Fruit" or "Pomegranate" by William Morris. I've seen some Morris wallpapers that are downright scary. I like William Morris, not just because he designed wallpaper, fabrics and furniture, but because he was influential in spreading the idea of Socialism in England. He also was a strong feminist, as I recall. (My apostrophes are not showing again, I see.)

    William Morris yellow wallpaper

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 05:00 pm
    Oh Mal - How awful! Ghastly busy pattern. I made a big mistake with Laura Ashley paper once. It was so busy it made me dizzy! (Poetic!)

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 05:02 pm
    Maybe it was this one? I have a suspicion that the wallpaper was quite innocuous; that it was her mind that made it seem threatening.

    Sunflower by William Morris

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 05:08 pm
    I can't help it, I HAVE to say this, in the William Morris yellow wallpaper link up there? I know it's just me, but look at it for a while? Just look?

    hahahaha

    ginny

    Deems
    November 3, 2003 - 05:18 pm
    Ginny--I'm not sure what you're seeing in the first Morris wallpaper link that Mal provided, but I can see several odd things there. One of them is a hamburger and another is, er, sexual.

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 05:26 pm
    Well....er....I hate to say this but yon Narrator sees movement, am I the only one? hahahaha

    OOps, and they say you're always the last to know!

    See you all tomorrow (sexual? Really, Maryal!)

    hahaahaha

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 05:35 pm
    The sunflower one looks like the buds are dancing but other than that I cannot for my life see anything sinister about it. Had a paper similar to that in our dining room. We had it up for years before someone pointed out the pattern had been hung upside down! Now I have plain walls. Much easier to live with!

    Carolyn

    horselover
    November 3, 2003 - 05:50 pm
    This is a Victorian story, so we have to put everything that happens and the things the characters do and say in that context. The woman in the story probably did expect her husband not to take her seriously, and she probably did not have very many choices. Certainly not the ones women have today when they can work and support themselves. In "The Forsyte Saga," there was also an intelligent and talented woman who was married to a tyrant whom she did not love, but it was extremely difficult for her to leave him because she had no money of her own and no resources.

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 05:53 pm
    In the Sunflower I see such peace and tranquility but in the William Morris yellow wallpaper I see so much confusion that it would drive anyone crazy, is that what the Dr. is doing and why? Yes I do see the sexual ties. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

    horselover
    November 3, 2003 - 06:04 pm
    Ginny, That wallpaper you provided a link to is definitely sexual. Those cracked open fruits look like vaginas.

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 06:19 pm
    Sorry folks I must be a real innocent I saw nothing like that in the wallpaper. Just looked like seed pods to me.

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 06:26 pm
    Good grief, listen, we're not looking for sexual references, and/or body parts, the issue is: they are MOVING, try to follow the pattern with your eyes, I feel like Narrator here, they are MOVING, I tell you, moving!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 06:29 pm
    Yes, GINNY, it's moving, no question about it. You gals who think this is an illustrated medical book are seeing things that just ain't there, kids. Sorry, but they're not. Of course, the fact that the pattern is moving, and you can't see it makes GINNY and me the only ones here who are certifiably sane.

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 3, 2003 - 06:30 pm
    THANK YOU!! I was beginning to wonder when the barred windows were coming, now I know how she feels, lemme pull off some wallpaper here and write about this, hahahaa

    ginny In Edit: Listen, we need to look at pages 3, 4, and 5 for tomorrow instead of just 3, we need to get through 5?

    Can you all do that?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 06:33 pm
    Want a little ketchup with that, GINNY?

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 06:41 pm
    LOL

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2003 - 07:09 pm
    Maybe the two who see the wall paper moving are the ones with the problem! LOL! As for the others who see body parts well the mind boggles! LOL

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 3, 2003 - 07:24 pm
    Wow so many great posts - My own thoughts are still churning and I'm in a hurry tonight but a theme I see is - Science versus Fate - easily confused with the power within this marriage - to me John represents Science and the wife Fate -

    The Unity of the Unknown and the Eternal Security that is the basis of Judo-Christian, Islamic religion and Fate Imagine a life in which one is simply a pawn at the hands of a mysterious higher force as we stumble and meander through life's tribulations. Most Religions believe in this passive, victimizing philosophy. Certainly and without trying to raise another hot debate, those who do not believe in Birth Control see conceiving as an act of God or an issue of Fate - as if we have no science that informs us of when conception is likely.

    Literature including Beowulf, "The Seafarer," and "The Wanderer" reflects Christian ideals, as well as the belief in Fate's unknown and often grim path. Example; Beowulf declares, "...Fate will unwind as it must!" The same work implies God has the authority in this great world by stating, "And all his glorious band of Geats/Thanked God their leader had come back unharmed," as if God was the deciding factor in the great protector's health. Destiny is often the theme of early literature as is a Quest journey, both of which further the theme of Fate. "The Wanderer" proves that man had little to live for and much to fear as it tells the tale of an anonymous man stripped from his gold-lord.

    Religions - Islam, Christianity, Judaism say, "do good - do the 'right' thing and the Lord will be with you" or in the case of the Jews, the covenant was the promise of Israel as a home. Horrific, just as most victims question what their role was in the Power Over scenario, Jews in the camps questioned what bad they did that God cursed them with the Holocaust.

    We have difficulty accepting anyone could control another so completely, inflicting so much pain, just as we in the US had a difficult time accepting the brain washing that soldiers experienced as prisoners during the Korean Conflict could allow them to turn on their country or, for rape, incest, kidnap victims to blame themselves for what happened (society helps point the blame-finger in these cases as well) In order to avoid re-feeling and owning that utter helplessness we often will do anything, including take some or all of the responsibility for the perpaetrator's behavior.

    Taking responsibility for the perpetrator's abuse is classic battered wife behavior (which is simply the use of physical abuse added to the same dynamics of Verbal and Emotional Abuse) -- volunteer at any shelter (which requires an extensive 60 hours of training) and you soon learn the most difficult for the battered is recognizing they are being abused, or reacting when it first starts so that, like the turtle in the warm pot gradually cooked, they become used to what is happening till something horrific happens.

    Those from either the home of minister and the wealthy having the most difficulty finding support to help them either understand their delimma or get out. Who among the church members would believe the minister beats his wife and who do you think comprise the friends of a wealthy family - the money maker attracts the friends. Therefore who can the victim turn...

    The joining of God and fate has influenced our culture and our outlook on life. Part of us still believes "Fate"- an anonymous power - controls the present, future and past; and victims of Power Over, while trying to sort out what is happening, take on the mantel of Fate as the power controlling their future plunging themselves into more passive, victimizing philosophy.

    It is with Jean-Paul Sartre that Western thinkers have questioned the inadequate understanding of fate and destiny. He imagines it is impossible simultaneously to believe in a fate and destiny determined by God and in the freedom of man, and that it is, therefore, necessary to choose either belief in God or the freedom of man -

    Women have long turned to their religion for not only solace but because, like magic, the hand of God will change their lives. We still have women dependent on their husbands for financial support and before long they recreate the behavior of their mother's and grandmother's, playing the age old game that "Women ought to be gentle and submissive persons, strong only in virtue (like caring for others and volunteerism) and in resistance to evil compulsion."

    The writer character in our story speaks of Fate in addition, shares her views of her natural 'God' made world - gardens etc. Where as John is a man of Science and all decisions seem to be devoid of feelings for his wife and baby but are rather a prescription for health, that in this case seem more mental then physical. Since Power Over is not a scientific tool but rather a tool to support the hiararchy of power and having read the story, it is interesting that Fate wins!

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 3, 2003 - 07:39 pm
    Please let me add that today some clerics are trying to seperate Fate and Destiny as the way of religion...

    http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/fate.htm

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 08:08 pm
    has taken over this world, religion included and Who Knows that even in the Yellow Wallpaper book it could have been a factor.

    Whatevery will be will be

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2003 - 08:54 pm
    "John is practical in the extreme. He has no patience with faith, an intense horror of superstition, and he scoffs openly at any talk of things not to be felt and seen and put down in figures."

    No scientist I've ever known is impatient with faith, especially the faith that through trial and error he or she will find positive proof for their theories.

    Nor do these scientists have a horror of superstition. To them anything is possible unless it is proven false.

    They deal in abstracts much of the time -- things not to be felt and seen.

    It is my opinion that the man in this story might be an M.D., but he certainly is not a scientist.

    Mal

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 08:57 pm
    WEll we learn from this and understand Years gone by and can and will do something about it, Right.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 3, 2003 - 10:19 pm
    Oh dear do not want to argue but my dear I am not saying he is a scientest - but that medicine is erring on the side of science do you not think as compared to Fate - my dictionary says that medicine is the science of diagnosing, treating or preventing disease and other damage to the body or mind - the branch of science encompassing treatment by drugs, diet, exercise, and other nonsurgical means etc. etc.

    I love it Ginger - QUE SERA, SERA - can hear Doris Day in my head...

    GingerWright
    November 3, 2003 - 11:43 pm
    Hey lets face it the Doctors of today don't even care about science or any thng else Just Money I am sorry to say.

    Oh a good Doctor is hard to find and so it goes back to mutipulaltion as is in this book so to speak as He and she thinks of him as a God that knows all. What is his motive? I wonder will it come out later I hope.

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 06:21 am
    It's amazing to me that this piece of Yellow Wallpaper has brought out so many differing perceptions and points, all strongly felt! That was an unexpected and very valuable exercise last night, to me, anyway, in "life imitates art," in that the reader could put himself INTO the story by truly "seeing" things that might not be there to others and then having to try to explain. I think that was an extraordinary thing to happen in a book discussion, and I wish each of you would stare at THAT particular wallpaper sample ( which is not the same paper she is talking about) for a long time, following the lines and see if you see any movement. I am glad to see that Maryal also has asked her students to draw the paper when they studied it, it's clear it's different for all of us, and I think when you do try to study even that sample closely, you get very uncomfortably close to what the author was trying to say.

    In some ways this yellow wallpaper seems a litmus test, even for us, today, huh? And apparently there is plenty to talk about even in 2003!!

    But we're just starting to peel back the paper, and now we are seeing, because you all brought it in, other issues in the story: feminist issues, (including the issue of voice: the narrator is constrained in her husband's presence and takes to using a different voice to express herself to him, and to us via the "dead" wallpaper: Barb characterizes that as abusive response, we will want to watch what happens with Narrator and her several voices) religious issues, in some ways this Yellow Wallpaper is a litmus test, and apparently is applicable to any age or time, thank all of you for the points you have raised here, and there are even more.

    Horselover mentioned the societal context that this woman found herself in, in which simply saying "sayonara" is not an option, that's another theme. And then we have the wallpaper itself, in today's reading and today we need to look at Pages 3-5 today if you can??) That's new, to go through Page 5 (which ends with the line "The whole thing goes horizontally, too, at least it seems to, and I exhaust myself in trying to distinguisth the order of its going in that direction.") we will see mention of medical treatments, so again you all have brought up many additional views, and there may be yet MORE, let's see!

    The WALLPAPER itself is beginning to take on more prominence in her life, (what is it replacing?) and significance and we may want to have a look at the wallpaper as a symbol or metaphor for something else. For instance, what IS that "creeping" behind the pattern?
    Beginning of Page 5:

    But in the places where it isn't faded and where the sun is just so—I can se a strange, provoking, formless sort of figure, that seems to skulk about behind that silly and conspicuous front design."


    Ok the issue for today is to ask you WHAT IS THAT in the wallpaper? Note the wallpaper has taken on more complexity? Note that something is "behind" that design or pattern? Just like her own life? Something hidden behind her own façade?

    Having driven self half crazy last night trying to pin DOWN the movement in the sample of William Morris wallpaper Malryn put up here, (which nobody else here at home can see moving either) we have to wonder if we're doing some sort of Rorschach test….or if the Wallpaper, in contrast to the "dead" paper she's confiding her own thoughts to, has come alive, and if it has, what that means?

    Let me get some food for your thoughts up in the heading and add some of the issues raised here to our list of themes and I'll be back, but let's start with this one: What is that figure moving behind the pattern? What do you say it is?

    Could the wallpaper itself have come to symbolize anything, and if so, what different things might it symbolize or represent and how?


    Now that we have gotten to this point, what seems to jump out at YOU from these three new pages? I am noticing John more and more gone, the alienation there or lack of ability to communicate is strong and she's TIRED TIRED TIRED hae you noticed how many references to being TIRED there are? Carolyn mentioned she was depressed, do you think it's the depression of being tired or what IS it? She's always "tired!>"

    Are there any references to anything in this part you did not understand? Who was Silas Weir Mitchell and what were his treatments? What is "delirium tremens," and OH gosh there's so much here!!

    back in a sec....

    Val Gamble
    November 4, 2003 - 06:41 am
    I agree with what Anneo said about getting up and getting on with things but bearing in mind that this is set in Victorian times when women were absolutely dominated and oppressed this would I imagine be a common thing for a woman to feel.I have always felt that at any time if I feel depressed it always helps to write about it and anything else that comes into my head.The pen allows feelings to flow out and gives a sense of relief and relaxation.This woman with nothing to do but look for pictures in the wallpaper and struggle to get out of the morass of depair that she has fallen into with a push from her superior Husband seems to be a soul in torment.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 08:25 am
    Silas Weir Mitchell was a neurologist. "Perhaps he is best known for the establishment of his rest cure, a method of treatment for patients, especially women, who suffered from hysteria and neurasthenia. The cure became the standard treatment for many decades, particularly in England." Fairly late in his life he became a novelist and wrote such books as Hugh Wynne, Adventures of Francois, and The Case of George Deadlow, which is the story of a quadruple amputee with descriptions of battles in the American Civil War.

    MORE

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 08:29 am
    My computer dictionary says: "delirium tremens (trê´menz) noun An acute, sometimes fatal episode of delirium usually caused by withdrawal or abstinence from alcohol following habitual, excessive drinking. It also may occur during an episode of heavy alcohol consumption."

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 08:30 am
    Just a quick note here to mention that the heading is a work in progress, have had to appeal to our Pat Westerdale, who is playing a big part behind the scenes, to restore the quotation marks, the alternate colors and she's also adding some of your themes to the two very pretty HTML pages she made last night, one on the THEMES you've given and one on the previous Questions so hang on for just a bit!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 08:56 am
    I wonder if a vivid imagination which is denied an outlet like writing can turn inward and fester in such a way that it poisons an otherwise healthy mind?

    Last night when I was looking for some of the clues Maryal mentioned I was struck by the many times the word "fancy" is used. I saved these examples, which also show how the protagonist was very imaginative in her childhood.
    I always fancy I see people walking in these numerous paths and arbors, but John has cautioned me not to give way to fancy in the least. He says that with my imaginative power and habit of story-making, a nervous weakness like mine is sure to lead to all manner of excited fancies, and that I ought to use my will and good sense to check the tendency. So I try.

    I never saw so much expression in an inanimate thing before, and we all know how much expression they have! I used to lie awake as a child and get more entertainment and terror out of blank walls and plain furniture than most children could find in a toy store.

    I remember what a kindly wink the knobs of our big, old bureau used to have, and there was one chair that always seemed like a strong friend.

    I used to feel that if any of the other things looked too fierce I could always hop into that chair and be safe.

    But I must not think about that. This paper looks to me as if it KNEW what a vicious influence it had!

    He says no one but myself can help me out of it, that I must use my will and self-control and not let any silly fancies run away with me.

    At first he meant to repaper the room, but afterwards he said that I was letting it get the better of me, and that nothing was worse for a nervous patient than to give way to such fancies. My darling," said he, "I beg of you, for my sake and for our child's sake, as well as for your own, that you will never for one instant let that idea enter your mind! There is nothing so dangerous, so fascinating, to a temperament like yours. It is a false and foolish fancy. Can you not trust me as a physician when I tell you so?"

    Lou2
    November 4, 2003 - 08:58 am
    This discussion is a great work of art in progress... and how you all are progressing!! I've come each day and read messages, gone out to think about what you've said and come back to post, when there are a million more wonderful comments to go out and digest... my wall paper isn't moving yet, but this discussion is!!!

    Man's inhumanity to man has always made my stomack cringe. I said before the Stepford Wives makes me sick, to think a man could do that to a woman he said he loved. And now John... Somehow, our narrator makes me think she came into this room a sad but not mentally ill woman. The rings on the wall sent off an alarm in me that won't stop ringing.

    Your wonderful insights are something to behold.

    Lou

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 09:23 am
    I've also been thinking about how it must have been before people understood the effects of hormones and hormone changes on the body. Women undergo hormone changes every single month of their childbearing years and more when they become pregnant and deliver babies. Some women can turn from a well-behaved, controlled, productive person into a quarrelsome, uncontrolled, emotional witch every twenty-eight days.

    What did that seem like to the males who dominated the medical profession? It seems to me that there was no possible way for them to understand this before there came the scientific knowledge that would make them overcome their ignorance about this, except to call it a "nervous condition" or hysteria.

    If these episodes were prolonged because of some hormonal deviation or malfunction, I can see why doctors would think a "Rest Cure" might be a good idea.

    I guess I'm saying that there might have been a reason for some of the ways men behaved in the 19th century and before and after. For the sake of objectivity and our own understanding as women, it doesn't hurt to put on somebody else's shoes once in a while, including a man's.

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 10:31 am
    Ok let me see if I can even catch UP with you all here!!

    hahaah Ginger on your computer room being painted yellow, AND your webtv room! Come to think of it, my kitchen is yellow too and so is the pantry where I sit, no WONDER I saw things in the wallpaper! hahahaha

    Malryn did you not see anything odd about her wanting a room to herself, roses and view notwithstanding?

    I wonder about the medical thinking of the day, whether fresh air and the stimulation of company was thought good, I bet not? Just a bet but I bet not.

    I think you are right and Narrator may well BE a product of her society, so that does make this social commentary, I've just read something new last night also I hope to bring here but am running out of time, it may have to be tomorrow.

    (Don't you all LOVE that quote from Umberto Eco in the questions? I have no idea what "a shortcut through the labyrinth of limitless semiosis" means, but it looks good and I just had to put it up there. Have any of you read Eco? Talk about litmus test, that guy drives me nuts by not translating Latin as if (he perceives we all should know) drives me nuts.

    Anyway, I love a good metaphor and I am wondering what the "pattern" in the wallpaper might stand for or who or what that "figure" is moving around behind the pattern. I guess John would say she's gone over the edge, what do you all say?

    Now Carolyn says she's talking to herself and that's interesting, she's trying to convince herself? I thought that the passages where she has to put it away so HE does not see it but WE do indicated that she is confiding in us, or, if you think she's writing TO herself, then we are confidants, I like that.

    YiLi, an interesting substitution of patient for partner but doesn't a physician first take the vow of "First, do no harm?"

    Andrea, excellent question and right on the nose
    She wrote this, didn't she, long after she had suffered from her nervous breakdown. Perhaps she felt that she needed to give us a "birds eye view" of the horrors of her psychosis, by writing this story. Wasn't she incarcerated during that period? Is there ANY mention, anywhere, of her suffering the "yellow" sickness of hallucinations?
    I've got some great stuff on that and a photo of her, but how about the rest of you (I don't seem to see anything about YELLOW in what I have) can you find out if YELLOW meant something special? Makes you think about the wallpaper again, too.

    All right, now several of you have commented on John and the wallpaper. He's only renting this house for 3 months. If YOU were a renter, would YOU pay to have the wallpaper redone? I bet not. So why can't he just say that initially? Why does he hide behind it's YOUR fault, YOU may see things in the bed or the window if we fix one, is Barbara right? Or is something else going on here? He finally does say, I don't want to do it for 3 months.

    Heck there's no way I would repaper somebody else's house for 3 months, would YOU?

    more…

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 10:53 am
    Great points, Andrea and Carolyn and Barbara and on whether this could happen today! I liked Andrea's remarks about bars, reminds you of the "stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage." I got curious and went to look that one up, here it is:

    To Althea, From Prison

    by Richard Lovelace (1618-1658)

    Stone walls do not a prison make,
    Nor iron bars a cage;
    Minds innocent and quiet take
    That for a hermitage.
    If I have freedom in my love,
    And in my soul am free,
    Angels alone that soar above,
    Enjoy such liberty.


    back in a mo….

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 10:55 am
    Yellow = sunshine. I read that yellow gets attention. Note traffic signs beside the road and stoplights. "But yellow does have a less positive side to it. It is associated with illness. Seagoing ships, for example, reserved their yellow pavilions as quarantine quarters."

    I think the yellow wallpaper symbolizes a prison. Believe I said something like that before. The figure behind the pattern is the narrator. I think the prison is her shaky mind, which she feels slipping away as she stays trapped behind that yellow wallpaper.

    GINNY, did the protagonist say she wanted the room just for herself? What I read is that John didn't want to use the room because there was only one window and not room enough for two beds. He also said there wasn't a room near enough if he took another one. This makes me think that the room downstairs would not have been hers along.

    I read Eco's The Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum some time ago. I must dig them out and read thema again. I think he's a marvelous writer.

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 11:17 am
    Malryn, oh, OK, I have to go back and look at that later then, I thought she said she wanted it and he pointed out that there was no room for him and no room nearby and she resented that and actually said I WANTED the room downstairs, I may have misread it I'll go back once I get back from my class am really running late today!

    Hats, paisley! Now THERE is a good description, and I can sort of visualize that, when I could not otherwise, for some reason I could not "SEE" the paper, at all.

    (It's hard work, sometimes, to think about literature, I simply could not "see" it).

    JUDYWOLFS!!! Welcome, Welcome, we are delighted to see you here!

    That is an excellent point we've not heard, since he WAS a doctor and did know about institutions, he wished to keep her out, you and Hats and a couple of others have made a point in favor of Dr. John, we need all our perspectives here, maybe he WAS in denial? Maybe he's not perfect? Or maybe he's the horror some of us think he is, how will we KNOW?

    Good point on the exercize equipment, but why does she call it a "Nursery," do you think?

    So glad you're with us!

    Carolyn, corn chips and sour cream, hmmmmm!!!

    By the way, who cooked for Narrator? John was often absent, was the nanny also the cook?

    Anneo what an interesting thought you've put into the mix, "Am I so wrong in thinking this woman goes almost willing into madness." Now I know we may all have different strong feelings over this story or people we know, but I think we also need to look at all sides, if we possibly can, after all Dr. John is not telling us HIS side, story and it MAY BE that there IS another side to this, and he may not have said what she says he does? Let's try to see? If you don't see all the sides you don't see the real story. Now that bears some thinking and some looking back over what's actually written here, let's all try to approach this and think outside the box because it's a real Pandora's Box here just like the Gandhi, and it bears us looking from ALL sides, I like that thought.

    Fairwinds, over there in France, did YOU see any movement in the first wallpaper?? (Am anxious to know if it moves en France or if it's a Pauline phenomenon?) hahaah

    Faith, good point on the story being a glimpse of the process of her deterioration, oh SUPER POINT on the nursery deteriorating with her, or personifying her own decline, HEY!! that's a metaphor!! And I did not SEE it!! Many thanks!! And good point on the omissions she makes particularly about the baby! (Does the baby have a name?)

    And Andrea raises a completely different perspective and I thought it was valuable, as well:
    It's not for lack of a backbone it's for a lack of insight. Our protoganist, IMO can't see the forest thru the trees. I feel she is non compos mentis! He agitation and nervous state will lead to a worse dilemma- a full blown pyschosis.


    I really reallly REALLY like a discussion of a book in which people can come from such very separate poles, VERY strongly felt, and talk about their different beliefs, I have learned so much from all of you, and have lingered over your posts to the point that I may not get thru them all today, but just jump on ANY thing anybody has said, and give your own thoughts here!

    ginny

    judywolfs
    November 4, 2003 - 11:17 am
    Just because there's a baby, doesn't mean that the writer is suffering from post partum depression. Maybe she has schizophrenia.

    I know a woman who has schizophrenia, and one of her hallucinations/delusions consists of people embedded in walls who are able to come out now and then.

    She sometimes feels that her family and her doctors have turned against her and are conspiring to cause her harm. - Judy

    kiwi lady
    November 4, 2003 - 11:35 am
    Judy has a good point. I do know that bi polar affective disorder is affected by childbearing and hormone changes and often after childbirth a woman can have a severe episode of the illness. The illness too often emerges in both males and females at puberty when hormones are raging. This is often when the illness becomes diagnosed. Also in males the illness is often diagnosed in the first or second year of University studies. This is not because Uni causes the illness but because often this is the first major stress that the young person has experienced in their lives. Living away from home and the intense pressure of study. Then the illness emerges. The predisposition for the illness was always there but the study etc was the catalyst or trigger.

    I am quite upset with some remarks about being able to just get on with it. Everyone has stresses and down periods in their life which they are able to overcome but true clinical depression is not able to be shrugged off like a down period. Obviously those people who think this way have not had clinical depression neither have they experienced anyone in their nuclear family suffering from this illness.

    Carolyn

    Ginny
    November 4, 2003 - 11:36 am
    Hallie Mae, I agree, this is something else, and you can't just REAd something, you have to go off and think about what this person or that person said and then come back!

    And my goodness what an interesting question YOU bring up, is SHE the one who pulled it off? I had never thought of that.

    Now you see big yellow flowers, that sounds cheery, was it?

    Maryal I wish I could have seen what your students thought the wallpaper looked like, does any one of their designs stand out in your mind?

    And I agree we need to read the story twice, maybe 10 times hahaaha

    Babi, do you think Narrator is depressed?

    Horselover, great point on the societal constrictions of the day, which do you think is worse, those put on by society, by her own husband, or by herself?

    Barbara, I appreciate your tying in Fate and Destiny and religion into the piece, we will need to read it again and see where these points might apply, thank you, that was a good point about John the "man of science." And also your point about medicine being about "diagnosing, treating or preventing disease," I just read something last night that took off on that and why it was important, will have to look it back up and bring it here, I was not sure I understood it and maybe you all can explain.

    Val, I really like your take on "the pen allows feeling to flow out and gives a sense of relief and relaxation" and I think that was what she felt, initially, or wanted, and there's something nagging at me and I need to go back, but did that change, too? THANK you for pointing THAT out, you all have added so much to my understanding of the story!

    Malryn thank you for the definitions of delirium tremens and the info on Dr Weir, apparently she had no liking for Dr. Weir in real life, more to come on that one, too.

    OH and well done on the "fancy" that Maryal mentioned (where I never saw that one!!)

    I am struck by all the mentions of TIRED, EXHAUSTED, etc. Heck , Maryal you were dead right, FANCY everywhere! What does THAT mean? Is she telling us she IS fanciful, after all?

    LOU! There you are, the discussion is a work of art in progress? I LOVE that! It's ALIVE, that's for sure and I love that, too. Me too on the thinking over and mulling over every point and I come back and want to say, but HEY what about…..and we've moved on! I'm kind of with you on the woman, sad initially but not sick, and yes the alarms ring all over the place!

    Thank you for those nice remarks on the group's insights!

    So, where are we? We have a million thoughts here today, grab on, I have to leave and am late, and say your druthers!!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2003 - 12:15 pm
    I'm the one who mentioned the use of the word "fancy" in the story, GINNY. Maybe I should change my SeniorNet user name to MalrynWallpaper or something so people won't get Maryal and Malryn mixed up!

    I'd like to mention here that no two cases of mental illness are alike and no two psychotic episodes are like each other. It seems as if we think all people who are labeled schizophrenic, for example, behave in the same way. They don't. The label itself is misleading, I think. It's very difficult to diagnose schizophrenia. My son's condition is called "Indeterminate Schizophrenia", which I think is a more accurate way of putting it.

    Some people continue to think that schizophrenia means a person has a split personality. It doesn't. I began to think of my son's psychotic episodes as his way of going into a different reality because it was all so real to him. Once during an episode he described seeing God walking down a rainbow while he was looking out of my Florida trailer's windows at a little garden full of gerbera daisies. He was sure I could see the same thing he did when I looked outside; it was so real to him. All schizophrenics do not hear voices, and not all schizophrenics are paranoid and vice versa.

    There are many, many misconceptions about illnesses like this, and unless people have been constantly with a person who has these "spells" and at the same time are in contact with a psychologist or psychiatrist who can explain what's going on in an accurate and scientific way, we lay people do not really understand this illness or any other mental illness. We only truly know our own reactions to them or the effects of a mental illness we ourselves might have had.

    Mal

    fairwinds
    November 4, 2003 - 12:23 pm
    ginny -- no, i didn't see the wallpaper move at all. i don't think it moves here!

    but i want to thank you, mal, for providing the william morris clickable to all the samples of his wallpaper. i also appreciated his decorative tiles which provided a bit of the same feeling. a thousand years ago when i was a docent for the chicago architectural foundation, my main gig was to give tours which included the glessner house. it is an h.h. richardson place now sitting in a less than brilliant part of the city. i've forgotten more than i remember about the design course but those morris designs remain clear. and his philosophy, too.

    my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic And has a bipolar personality as well. it took years to equalize his medication but he seems to be managing quite well now living in a community home. the paranoid bit made him not want to take his medication for years but some wise soul somehow convinced him it was for the best.

    i have never lived with him as an adult and can only imagine from occasional visits how fatiguing it is for significant others in the same house.

    sorry about this sidebar. but i guess when i compare this wallpaper woman with my brother it's all relative and she doesn't seem Nearly as ill.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 4, 2003 - 12:54 pm
    Hahahahahahah...breath...hahahahahah...haha...ha

    Marvelle
    November 4, 2003 - 01:30 pm
    A few comments. The narrator wanted the "downstairs room that opened on the piaza and had roses all over the window, and such pretty old-fashioned chintz hangings!" but John said no, it's too small with room for only one bed and no near room for me.

    Whenever the narrator says she's tired, she's just experienced a repression or restriction of freedom. Examples:

    "I did write for a while in spite of them; but it does exhaust me a good deal -- having to be so sly about it, or else meet with heavy opposition."

    Further into the story -- "But John says if I feel so [ie, express outward anger], I shall neglect proper self-control; so I take pains to control myself -- before him, at least, and that makes me very tired."

    Lanes leading elsewhere attract the narrator. John prefers she get 'air' from a window rather than walking outside of her own volition as she could have done through the downstairs room. So I get the felling of claustrophobia in the story and a need to escape.

    Marvelle

    Deems
    November 4, 2003 - 01:35 pm
    Mal~~Goodness, even Ginny doesn't know who we are. There just isn't any hope. Now that you have changed your name to MalrynNC, I'm thinking about changing mine to MaryalDC. Just kidding.

    Our names don't look anything at all alike to me, but I know we are confusing to others. If I had known that you were already here back when I signed on to SeniorNet, I would have chosen something different.

    I thought your point about the narrator's continuing use of "fancy" and the example you gave us was excellent. An obsessive mind repeating itself. I take "fancy" to mean "imagination" as in "You're just imagining that, dear little goose <barf>" I think "fancy" was used in this time period to mean essentially the same thing as imagination. It was also used to mean "prefer," as in "Which ice cream do you fancy?"

    Anyway, perhaps we'll get it all straightened out in the end.

    I too really enjoyed reading both The Name of the Rose and Foucault's Pendulum. Read that in an earlier post of yours.

    Maryal

    horselover
    November 4, 2003 - 01:36 pm
    Mal, That is an excellent point about how little was known about hormones at that time, and perhaps even today. If you go back even further, before men could prove the connection between their sperm and pregnancy, you can see how some of the societal strictures on women arose from the man's need to determine if a child was indeed his. Ignorance can produce strange theories and strange customs.

    Women have frequently been the victim of efforts to control the effects of their hormones. Witness the recent findings about Hormone Replacement Therapy when it was discovered that almost everything that had been told to women about the use of HRT was, in fact, false. It was found that these drugs were doing more harm than good. Many women were lured into becoming "lab rats" by the promise of eternal youth and sexuality.

    Do we know or suspect that the husband is having a relationship with the Nanny, a common occurrence in those times?

    Schizophrenics are often also depressed, and are given medication for depression. Living in a world where your reality is not the same as it is for other people makes it difficult to function. Think about how well you would do if you heard voices others did not hear, or saw visions others did not see. Most medications they have now don't cure the disease; they simply dampen down these delusions and hallucinations, but they also have unpleasant side effects, which is why some patients resist taking them.

    Deems
    November 4, 2003 - 01:37 pm
    Marvelle--We were posting at the same time. I also think this story is very claustrophobic. That room with its yellow wallpaper is almost closing in on her.

    Ginny--Jenny, John's sister is doing the cooking and the housework.

    Faithr
    November 4, 2003 - 02:02 pm
    Websters 1913 Dct. Definition: \Neu*ras`the*ni"a\, n. [NL., fr. Gr. ? nerve + ? weakness.] (Med.) A condition of nervous debility supposed to be dependent upon impairment in the functions of the spinal cord.

    kiwi lady
    November 4, 2003 - 02:08 pm
    Faith they were not so wrong. There is recent research to show that CFS and Fibromyalgia patients that they have tested and who have been correctly diagnosed, show abnormalties in spinal fluid when a spinal tap has been carried out. People with CFS and Fibromyalgia were often in past times written off as hysterics.

    kiwi lady
    November 4, 2003 - 02:11 pm
    PS as Mal says in major mental illnesses there are degrees of severity in the illness and patients can have very different symptoms from one another. Not all patients have identical symptoms. There are however some common symptoms which physicians can use as diagnostic tools.

    judywolfs
    November 4, 2003 - 02:46 pm
    I can hardly keep up with the postings - I just wanted to point out that by page 5, our heroine seems to be less confined. She mentions having the 4th of July with "mother, Nelie and the childen" for a week, and talks of Jennie doing all the work. Hasn't mentioned Mary (except once at the beginning of the story) as the baby's caretaker.

    She also mentions walking in the garden and down the lane, and sitting on the porch. Judy

    Marvelle
    November 4, 2003 - 02:58 pm
    Judy, I think it's a controlled type of company for the narrator. She looked forward to being able to talk about writing/her work with Cousin Henry and Julia but John said they were too stimulating. So instead he invites mother and Nellie. Not the stimulus that the narrator craved if you read her remarks. Ditto Mary and Jennie. (Remember the narrator's guilty reaction when she hears 'sister' on the stairs.) And yes she can walk about but only on approved pathways when John is gone.

    I still need to figure out if the narrator's mental health is deteriorating or not. It may well be a deterioration but I'm not sure and I have to rush to catch up with everyone. For now, I'm focusing on the story, how its divisions/parts are put together and why, and what is being said and unsaid.

    ___________________________________

    The narrator reacts to the wallpaper and compares it to her childhood:

    Wallpaper: "This paper looks to me as if it knew what a vicious influence it had! . . . . I get positively angry with the impertinence of it and the everlastingness. Up and down and sideways they crawl, and those absurd, unblinking eyes are everywhere. There is one place where two breaths didn't match, and the eyes go all up and down the line, one a little higher than the other."

    Impertinence = intrusion insolence. Everlastingness = lasting forever; wearisome.

    Childhood: "I never saw so much expression in an inanimate thing before, and we all know how much expression they have! I used to lie awake as a child and get more entertainment and terror out of blank walls and plain furniture than most children could find in a toy-store."

    I see a lot of things here. As a child the narrator was free to use her imagination/fancy and could conjure up both terror and delight. There wasn't the sense of claustrophobia then for she had allies (like the chair and the bureau) and freedom of thought and movement.

    Something changed from childhood. The wallpaper is an imposed and odious pattern on a blank wall. As a child the narrator had a completely blank wall -- or clean slate -- on which to imagine and move about. The wallpaper is impertinent and everlasting; it is set and I do feel it's claustrophobic.

    The story moves us out of the pretty chintz downstairs room with a door leading out to the upper floor bedroom with a view of the outdoors (second hand/removed living) with what was ugly yellow paper to sulfur yellow (sulfur = corrosive, explosive, sickly, devil) to a moving wallpaper that engulfs the narrator.

    From this association I'd say that the wallpaper symbolizes the narrator's restricted life as a female. The gradual coming-to-life of the wallpaper, its changing nature of yellow-sickly-sulfur-moving is the narrator coming to conscious awareness of the unfair restriction. Perhaps the narrator even thinks the restrictions of gender is evil (because of the sulfur image).

    The blank wall from her childhood was remembered as a life of possibilities.

    Just free associating here and my idea of what the wallpaper symbolizes is just that, an idea.

    Marvelle

    Diane Church
    November 4, 2003 - 05:23 pm
    Whew - such terrific posts and appearing so rapidly that I can hardly keep up!

    Just two little points I wanted to make (and if I am repeating someone else, please forgive). I remember reading a long time ago that at one time the source of women's "hysteria" was thought to be the womb - hence, a hysterectomy would, it was hoped, cut out the source of the hysteria. Hah! So much for that one.

    Also, the several references to the torn-apart wallpaper and the posts here about where the Narrator obtained her writing material, seems almost like a natural, doesn't it? Tearing off the wallpaper to write upon?

    Oh, and want to add here that I get a kick out of the discussions on the color yellow. I've always loved yellow and for several years (and several different homes) I saw to it that the walls, or most of them, were yellow. With white trim. I LOVE that. The last home before this one was our largest, and maybe nicest, and thought it was time I had some decorating guidance so I contacted a local decorator. Really, the only thing I could tell her about what I wanted was that I wanted yellow walls. She gasped and told me oh no, yellow is out...NO one has yellow walls - impossible! Difficult color! No - we can't have that! Needless to say I decided we could not work together and went on to do the house myself - complete with yellow walls! And so often since that day I've encountered yellow walls, either painted or papered, and can only gloat and think, "hmph - I was right!"

    Marvelle
    November 5, 2003 - 06:10 am
    Diane, what an insight! Now I see it; John wouldn't let her have a journal to write in so she strips off bits of wallpaper and writes on the blank reverse.

    That explains the 'dead' paper which is the wallpaper she's conquered/stripped and is using for her purpose.

    Since IMO the wallpaper symbolizes the gendered restrictions of her life, then by writing over the wallpaper she is rebeling and subverting those restrictions through the very thing which 'limits' her. Typical of how women survived when in a limited gendered role, the rebellions and subversions. She can strip the wall back to its blank state with its world of imaginative possibilities.

    Loved your thoughts Diane.

    I came in to talk about the emphasis of words, gardens, and paths but will do that later.

    Marvelle

    Marvelle
    November 5, 2003 - 07:02 am
    My impression is of a convoluted patter. The pattern of the yellow wallpaper, is the pattern of women's restricted lives in Gilman's time, and is the pattern (structure) of "The Yellow Wallpaper" as a story that's writing over and changing the wallpaper.

    Does anyone else have a copy of the story with its divisions?

    Marvelle

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 08:34 am
    I have a copy with the divisions. Generally the story is printed in modern anthologies with white space separating the divisions.

    I have just been through the story and I find 12 parts.

    Seven, eight, nine and ten take up only two pages in the text I am looking at. Eleven is very short. Section 12 is two pages.

    Perhaps I should add here that I have always taken these "divisions" to be separate entries that our narrator makes in her journal.

    I think she hides the journal, by the way. I would be a very difficult thing to write on wallpaper. Think of all that dried out glue residue on the back side. I can't imagine the narrator writing on the front side of the wallpaper.

    Maryal

    judywolfs
    November 5, 2003 - 08:51 am
    Maryal, I agree with you about writing in a journal that she hides, not on the back of the torn wall paper. However, I most certainly DO think that the writer is the one tearing down the paper.

    About the "divisions" in the text - I'm having a terrible time trying to decide how far along we are in the story, I don't have a copy with divisions. It's making me a little paranoid about posting anything at all, afraid I'll accidentally spoil it for people who haven't finished reading the whole thing yet.

    - Judy

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 09:01 am
    I agree with Maryal. (You scared me so with "DC", Maryal, that I changed NC to "Mal". Of course, you could always change your name to "Maryal Gal". This game could go on forever!)

    At one time in my life I rented a room in a New England cottage well over 100 years old from an old Yankee friend. The wallpaper was not yellow, it was dark mauve. That is, parts of it were. If I moved a picture, it was a light pinkish color. Because some of it had come off, the old, stained, dark gray-yellow plaster showed.

    The paper was not peeling off, it was chipping off because it was so old. It had the consistency of a thin, brittle cracker. The back of pieces that came off were a dark, ugly brown color. The paste looked as if it had turned to shellac. There was no possible way anyone could have written on it. If anyone were to try, the paper would have broken into stiff, sharp crumbs of various sizes.

    It's my opinion that the narrator feels imprisoned, trapped. The wallpaper is the walls of her cell. She thinks she sees a figure skulking about behind the wallpaper. The figure is herself wanting to get out.

    It's my thinking that the wallpaper does not just represent a jail and her need for freedom from the isolation she's in, it's a metaphor for her mind. She wants to strip away the sick, bad parts of it and let her real, sane, healthy self out.

    I don't think we're witnessing the effects of gender issues when she talks about the wallpaper as much as we are seeing madness. She repeats that she wants to get well, so we know she's making an effort to. There's something binding her; holding her back that she wants to tear off. She equates that with the wallpaper.

    Gilman has written the painful slide into insanity better in this story than almost anything else I have ever read.

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 5, 2003 - 09:31 am
    Marvelle, I thought your analysis comparing the narrators childhood walls with the hated wallpaper was terrific. It felt 'right on' to me.

    As for her tearing wallpaper off the wall, I thought that was at least an indication that she was trying to fight against her deterioration. I would have pulled off all that I could, and if it alarmed my husband...good! Of course, that is not the approved Victorian attitude.

    Having been one that took many years to learn to stand up for myself, I can empathize with this woman. I find myself thinking, "if she would only....". ...Babi

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 5, 2003 - 10:00 am
    Collapsed in front of the TV last night in the middle of something on PBS that had to do with Palestinians coming to the US - I came in to the show when a wife was leaving her home. A home where several women lived together including another young wife and her child whose husband was in the states but had not worked out the passport that allowed her to accompany him and so to her upsetment he only visits every few months -

    The documentary goes on as the childless wife arrives in the US - finds the 'husband's' apartment a mess - of course everything strange - and is told by the husband, who holds down two jobs, not to open the door for anyone. She asks for some help from the camara women who at times does help her sort out the use of a phone - she cannot get through on the phone to him all day and he arrives home at 10:00 at night - she is alone - no outlets (books, friends, sewing, walks) - struggles to turn on appliences and after disconnecting the TV in order to plug in the vacum the TV does not come back on and she is afraid of him enough so that she would rather pretend to be ill when she tells him - she does not turn on the TV unless he is at home when all they watch is wrestling - his interests are catered to as is his needs -

    Within the first 6 weeks the camara shows her on the sofa sleeping away the day - the camara person tries to raise her and is told that yes, she will sleep away the day, that her mother would not know and her mother does not know what it is like to be there alone, and the reason she is sleeping is there is nothing left to clean.

    Depression? Maybe - a feeling of uselessness? Yes - having any of her needs or interests considered? No - is she in this dilemma only because she is an immigrant with no English language skills? No - this is simply a male controlled household where as among American families the wife is isolated with the care of children in a communty where women are in the workforce and so she is alone. If she is controled she then needs to phone in when she leaves the house, while she is at the store or even if she is working at her workplace, and when she returns. Her family is villified as are her friends so the wife in order to keep peace no longer sees them. This is not rare today and the result is a deep tiredness that is similar to our writer's tiredness in Yellow Wallpaper.

    I think many of us do this today on a different level - when my life is filled with responsibilities - not doing what I want but doing what is expected of me - sometimes those responsibilities are overwhelming -

    Holiday time when my children were young was filled not only with all the activities I wanted to create towards the celebrations but so many activities that were expected by others. Responsibilites to non-supportive family members and schools and in those years taking care of husbands business contacts on and on it went. The holiday came with a mixed feeling as if I had to protect the little time I had with my immediate family and a tiredness came on with a sort of floating angst that life was dull and I was feeling blue or out of sorts immediatly after the holidays. At times I didn't shake it through the entire month of January. I always blamed it on the weather and what I would label a natural crash after so much activity but recently I have learned our energy and mental well being disappears when we are not meeting our own needs.

    I am also aware when I am doing all this busy busy that is responsiblity to meet other's expectations I am going to bed at night reviewing in my head lists and lists and where I put this and if I mailed that, which to me is not much different then focusing on the lines and shapes of a design in wallpaper but rather the lines and shapes of lists in my head.

    I'm also remembering when I was ill as a child, which was before any wonder drugs - you were in bed for days and days and a serious illness ment weeks and weeks so that your body became weak. I remember being so tired walking to school and would stop to sit on a rock. While sitting there I would follow the trandrils of weeds and growth then see the tiny ants and finally any tiny tiny aphids or other growth on the vines. If this had been my only acceptable outlet I would no longer be looking up and out, playing with friends but would be in my own world watching and noticing the actual shape of each leaf.

    And so with these pages - 3,4 and 5 I see the beginning of her decline into a world that she is allowed. I see that she is too tired to play the game of asking for what she wants, regardless if it was reasonable or not, and being denied. All stimulations was removed so that her response is deep tiredness and gradually removing herself from all that represents control into what she and no one else can control. Almost like anorexia is control that gets away from you till it controls you. She is slipping into the wallpaper controlling her...

    Hmmm does that say something about losing ourselves when we focus exclusively on anyone or thing??

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 10:20 am
    Mal--I think your new name is very good, Malryn (Mal) works well. Glad I scared you into it. I was just kidding. oooops.

    Thanks for the brittle wallpaper support. I too have seen some pretty ancient wallpaper and writing on it would be like trying to write on a crack. Great analogy!

    OK, everyone, if this link works, it will take you to a photographic copy of the original "The Yellow Wallpaper" as it was printed in New England Magazine for Sept 1891-1892.

    LINK to facisimile-- http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fnewe%2Fnewe0011%2F&tif=00655.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAFJ3026-0011-90&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

    This shows the divisions and everyone can see exactly where they are.

    The button for "next page" is at the top right. I couldn't find it at first.

    Ginny--If you go to the page just after the last page of "The Yellow Wallpaper," you will see "The Old Oaken Bucket." Remember when we were remembering that one?

    Maryal

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 10:21 am
    The link works, at least it does for me. Note the illustrations. Gives one an accurate picture of the clothing of the time.

    Maryal

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 10:28 am
    We were posting at the same time. I noticed your commentary about wearing yourself out at Christmas and then the fall afterward.

    I experienced the weight of Christmas for years and years, so much so that I thought I might be unnatural, so much did I not have the "Christmas Spirit."

    Long time passed and then I discovered that I have a mild case of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) that is easily cured by sitting in front of a full-spectrum light I bought for twenty minutes a day.

    I go down especially far if we have three or four rainy days in a row in November or December (this is Maryland and we often have rain all the way into the winter).

    I haven't had any problems since I got the light, and I now enjoy the holidays as I always felt I "should."

    Maryal

    Ginny
    November 5, 2003 - 11:00 am
    Your posts are incredible here, the variety of subjects and impressions! It's just amazing to me what all people can see in this story! I just heard of a new book on it just out in 2003, unbelievable, and it's so fun to discuss it and see how many interpretations of only one thing there might be, love it.

    First off, before we get to your marvelous thoughts, here's some background information you might find interesting!!

    Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

    Paula Treichler in her "Escaping the Sentence: Diagnosis and Discourse in 'The Yellow Wallpaper,'" reveals this about Gilman's own life and experience with Dr. Weir:
    Asked whether the story was based on fact, Gilman replies, "I had been as far as one could go and get back." Gillman [sic. I think I just found an error] based the story on her own experience of depression and treatment. For her first visit to the noted neurologist S. Weir Mitchell, she prepared a detailed case history of her own illness, constructed in part from her journal entries. Mitchell was not impressed: he "only thought it proved conceit." He wanted obedience from patients, not information.

    "Wise women," he wrote elsewhere "choose their doctors and trust them. The wisest ask the fewest questions." Gilman reproduced in her journal Mitchell's prescription for her:

    Live as domestic a life as possible. Have your child with you all the time. (Be it remarked that if I did but dress the baby it left me shaking and crying—certainly far from a healthy companionship for her, to say nothing of the effect on me.) Lie down an hour after every meal. Have but two hours intellectual life a day. And never touch pen, brush or pencil, as long as you live.

    Gilman spent several months trying to follow Mitchell's prescription, a period of intense suffering for her:

    I could not read nor write nor paint nor sew not talk nor listen to talking, nor anything. I lay on that lounge and wept all day. The tears ran down into my ears on either side. I went ot bed crying, woke in the night crying, sat on the edge of the bed in the morning and cried—from sheer continuous pain.

    At last in a "moment of clear vision," Gilman realized that for her the traditional domestic role was at least in part the cause of her distress. She left her husband and with her baby went to California to be a writer and a feminist activist. Three years later she wrote "The Yellow Wallpaper." After the story was published, she sent a copy to Mitchell. If it in any influenced his treatment of women in the future, she wrote, "I have not lived in vain." (Taken from The Living.

    YiLi4
    November 5, 2003 - 11:03 am
    okay, maybe its the rainy weather, and I don't mean to incite, but today I'm feeling a bit duped by this nameless person. (I am still not convinced she is the 'protagonist') Early on her impression of the wallpaper ios that it is ugly; she’s "never seen a worse paper in [her] life." Then she 'uses us' and embarks upon a new language that we are supposed to interprete as metaphorical or disturbed. Today I think she is setting us up- using us to explore her feelings for her. Yet assaulting us with a kind of passive aggressive anger. The wallpaper her weapon, now the pattern possesses "lame uncertain curves" that "suddenly commit suicide!!! Oh the manipulation of it all. Why do I not believe this is a legitimate appeal- I wonder if Gillman is angry at 'everywoman' and some of the posts that allude to women accepting their roles without a good fight. I wonder if she is writing this saying to us see what you've done. Again though blaming the external. Why is it I have more sympathy for the end of life process of Sylvia Plath, what is it that makes me believe Plath's narrators, why suddenly is this woman no longer a reliable narrator to me. Suddenly this is no longer about John.

    Ginny
    November 5, 2003 - 11:07 am
    I think what YiLi just said is very valuable, as well, in that I do also feel, not a manipulation, or maybe.........I want to revisit what she just said but need to first say some other stuff about your other points, I very much like what you just said, tho.

    One thing nobody has mentioned that I can see until now, and YiLiLin, but I have just skimmed over the posts this morning and now am going back for a full meal, but has anybody addressed WHY the paper seems to be so irritating?

    Look at her here on Page 4: "I get positively angry with the impertinence of it and the everlastingless." WHAT? The WHAT?

    Page 3: "that horrid paper." Horrid?

    She really HATES the paper.

    Why, particularly?

    more...

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 11:19 am
    Here it is again, because it has rolled off my page due to the traffic at this very popular site.

    The New England Magazine in which "The Yellow Wallpaper" was first published is available from Cornell.

    OK, everyone, if this link works, it will take you to a photographic copy of the original "The Yellow Wallpaper" as it was printed in New England Magazine for Sept 1891-1892.

    LINK to facisimile-- http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fnewe%2Fnewe0011%2F&tif=00655.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAFJ3026-0011-90&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

    This shows the divisions and everyone can see exactly where they are.

    The button for "next page" is at the top right. I couldn't find it at first.

    Ginny--If you go to the page just after the last page of "The Yellow Wallpaper," you will see "The Old Oaken Bucket." Remember when we were remembering that one?

    Ginny
    November 5, 2003 - 11:21 am
    Page 3:
    It does weigh on me so not to do my duty in any way.

    I meant to be such a help to John, such a real rest and comfort, and here I am a comparative burden already!


    Apparently there was a big movement in the 1890's called True Womanhood? Do any of you know anything about it? I never heard of it but apparently it was all the vogue. Can any of you find out anything on it? It appears that perhaps the poor woman had more oppressing her than her own illness and husband (if you consider HIM oppressive) and it speaks to the pressures women then faced (which apparently Gilman in her own personal life broached?) What, if anything do we know about this True Womanhood (shades of the Stepford Wives, maybe?)

    ginny

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 5, 2003 - 12:15 pm
    hmmm after re-reading on Maryal's link I got bits that I did not pick up when reading it on the link in the Heading - in the first chapter when John is speaking to her as he minimizes her desire for a change of paper by listing all the other things in the room that, like that slippery slide we here about, would also need changing - there is a gate at the top of the stairs!?!

    I never thought of anger with all women but that could fit - she does say that John's sister is happy looking forward to a life of simply taking care of a home in such a way to allow you to know that is not enough for her - she is a writer...

    I was getting the impression that the design of the paper is now being broken into two - the form of a women is mentioned but the discription of the outer design sounds like the face she puts on for John and that part of society that expects her to be happy as a mother and homemaker as if she needs to get to the inner design which is representing her inner life and inner needs and ability to express who she really is...

    I get that the room is the mental cage she feels as she is controlled not only by John but by society while the garden represents freedom but since it is visible to society she isn't really free there either - her freedom is using her imagination and that wharf sticking out into the water at the end of the garden is possibly her symbol of freedom that she almost has to pull back and not visit because to be free (no word of a boat tied up to the wharf) would mean leaving this world if not just in death, the protection she requires to exist in this world.

    Maryal and Malryn I laughed so hard at trying to distinguish your names in that to this day when I try to call any of my children and now my grandchildren I go through a litany of their names including my brother and sister's names to finally land on the correct one - so that no matter the differences I get the names all of a jumble and do not even try anylonger - it only becomes an issue when in an emergency I am calling the name of my son Peter or brother Billy when I mean my grandson Chris.

    By the way I've heard of the light tip - thanks - living where I do light is not a factor for us - some years we have a consistently rainy February and in the last 20 or 30 years I only remember two rainy winters. January is usually bright and warm with a cold blue norther blowing through every so often that only lasts 3 or 4 days seperated by a week or more of bright sun.

    fairwinds
    November 5, 2003 - 12:17 pm
    a movement called the cult of true womanhood existed in the u. s. of a. the last half of the 19th century. here is where to find out more than you may want to know: http://www.nevadamercantile.com/jparker/article1.html

    in 1963, when i was only two years into twenty-five years of an extremely patriarchal marriage, a book was published by helen andelin called "fascinating womanhood". some of you may remember its popularity at the time. we read it in my little palo alto book group that had formerly focused on the classics. we weren't aware of the blossoming womens' movement and some in the group really latched on to this stuff. some experimented wearing more frilly things and discovered there was a difference in their husbands' responses. we were advised to feed the children (i didn't have any yet) before our husbands arrived home so we could devote full time to them.

    i think you get the picture.

    maybe woman without a name somehow received some of the backwash from the earlier movement. maybe she wasn't as sick as some of us are saying but suffered extreme differences in personal expectations within her married life.

    just a bit of reflection as the evening closes in.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 12:20 pm
    If you've ever been truly depressed, or in what is called "clinical depression" -- a term that doesn't mean much to me because I don't really understand what it means; then you know that a big symptom of deep depression is feeling tired all the time. You have to push yourself to do anything, and even the slightest effort makes the fatigue worse. Regardless how much you sleep, you never get enough.

    Perhaps the "manipulation" YiLi speaks of is something I've thought about. When Gilman wrote about her illness in her journals at the time it was taking place, she was not really in her right mind. (I say that for lack of a better term.) Serious mental illness like severe depression alters judgment and the way we see and understand things. It is only after recovery that we realize, when reading what we wrote at the time, how far off our thinking really was.

    Gilman distanced herself from her "nervous breakdown" by a period of three years, was it? Or enough time that many changes in her had occurred.

    Gilman was a writer and a good one. This says to me that she used some things she wrote just for effect. She wanted her story to be published, so no doubt said to herself, "How will this affect an editor or publisher? How will it affect readers?" To me, as a writer, this says she no doubt exaggerated points from her journal that she wanted to get across, and edited out others. She is manipulating both. For that reason, I cannot approach this story as a true one. It is fiction based on some not quite reliable fact.

    People can become obsessed when they are mentally ill in the way this character and Gilman were. The wallpaper is the narrator's obsession. Though Gilman had reason to complain about how women were treated in her time, a sick person can become hung up when pointing fingers at the person, people, or society they blame. Nothing is normal when one is mentally ill, including the assessment of factors which might have led to that illness, about which they might obsess.

    I am an old woman who has lived many years and been through many sometimes painful things. I say to myself today that what I complained about in my marriage, and blamed for the collapse of it at the end, was at least partially my fault.

    People were right when I moaned that "I always wanted to write a book" or "I always wanted to paint and learn that Beethoven Concerto. They asked me why I hadn't I done it? I certainly had the time after the kids were in high school or beginning to leave home. I made excuses like "It's such a big house to keep clean" or "I was depressed."

    I had cleaning help once a week for quite a long while, so the first excuse was not valid. I allowed myself to become depressed.

    I've had a siege of infections over the past almost six months. There are times when I get up in the morning and start to feel quite discouraged, almost depressed. As I've told people, in the "old days", I'd get up, go in the bathroom, do what I had to do, and by the time I went out I was really depressed and half-convinced that I was no good. Now when that feeling comes to me, I stop it before it takes over.

    Part of the reason for that is because there is no one in my life who will baby me any more. If I want attention, the only person who can give it to me is me. If I'm sick, the only one who takes care of me is me. I'd rather not spend my time that way.

    In other words, what's happened to me is that I grew up. I have grown up enough, in fact, to ask myself if my needs were really suppressed by someone else, or if they were suppressed by me.

    My time is not the time of Charlotte Perkins Gilman. The fact that I should be thinking first of my husband and children and last about me was not really part of my era. That is, if it was it was because I allowed it.

    I have been hospitalized for depression twice in my life, once only a few years ago. I realize now that both times I had lapsed into a rather childish state. I wanted to be babied, cuddled and loved.

    The second time I was hospitalized, I had moved away from a house I owned to a different state where I knew practically no one. This followed a time of real independence for me. I wanted someone to say, "Poor Mal, so far away from people you knew, it's no wonder you feel this way. Come here and let me hug you and tell you things are okay." Instead, what I got was "This was your choice, kiddo, live with it." In other words, "You're all grown up now. Don't try to lean on me."

    It was funny, too, because two days after I entered the hospital that time my brace broke and I fell and broke my leg. Know what happened? My depression went away. Why? Simple. My obssession with things I couldn't pinpoint and feeling sorry for my plight had transferred itself to the broken bones in my leg and physical pain that I knew from past experience would heal. I came back to my own reality.

    Maybe our heroine really did want to be sick.

    Mal

    fairwinds
    November 5, 2003 - 12:28 pm
    wow, mal. i can't thank you enough for your recounting of all of this. what a wise woman you have become. i wish i were going to virginia to meet you in may. but maybe some other time.

    kiwi lady
    November 5, 2003 - 12:34 pm
    The depression you describe is not clinical depression Mal. Clinical depression brings you to the stage where death seems the only escape from the mental torment you feel. You slowly withdraw from those you love. You want to be alone. You often do not speak of these feelings to anyone - you can if needs be put on a brave face to others for a time- that is why often symptoms are not picked up until its too late. Post partum Psychosis is a depressive illness but it seems to differ from Clinical depression in that the patient may harm others such as her baby or her other children.

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 12:38 pm
    CAROLYN, unless I tell you, you have no way of possibly knowing that I did not feel suicidal when I went through those periods of depression, do you? There are some things about me and my life and how I learned what I know that I'd rather keep as mine alone.

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 5, 2003 - 01:31 pm
    Maryal, the link(s) you provided are just what I was thinking of and similar to what I have. They show the divisions. IMO the columns with the horizontal divisions imitate the wallpaper.

    Modern wallaper adhesive is not the same as the paste used in the 1800's. Someone mentioned a 100-year old wallpaper with the brittle degraded paste. That does sound unwritable but then again the wallpaper in the 'haunted house' wasn't nearly that aged (in the narrator's time; not our time). Usually in that time period people used homemade paste.

    GINNY, in post 193 I remarked on the narrator's description of the wallpaper as having the animated characteristics of impertinence and everlastingness. My dictionary defines them as:

    impertinence = intrusion, insolence
    eerlastingness = lasting forever; wearisome

    I enjoy seeing all the different interpretations of this story. You are all making me think deeper into the story and learning new things.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 01:35 pm
    A correction, MARVELLE. I said the cottage was over a hundred years old, not the wallpaper. It might have been on the wall thirty or thirty-five years, or I would guess as long as the yellow wallpaper in the story.

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    November 5, 2003 - 03:41 pm
    In those old Country Houses wallpapers were sometimes up for a great many years. The nurseries were not regularly decorated as the Wealthy and Middle class believed their children should not live luxuriant lives up in their quarters. Their nurseries were a far cry from the lavish drawing rooms and morning rooms their parents spent their time in.

    Scrawler
    November 5, 2003 - 04:45 pm
    Page 1 of 12: The opening line, "It is very seldom that mere ordinary people like John and myself secure ancestral halls for the summer." I related to the fact that I too am ordinary and would be thrilled to live in an "ancestral hall" if only for a summer.

    I'm not sure I trust anyone either the speaker or the doctors. What does "sick" mean anyway? Some people feel sick if they have a little tickle in their throat while othrs you could hit them over the head with a 2 x 4 and they still won't be convinced that they are sick or hurt.

    I can only agree partially with the speaker when she says: "I believe that congenial work, with excitment and change, would do me good." I like the idea of "congenial work", but I disagree that excitment and change would be good for someone that thinks she is sick. Which makes me wonder if she really is sick.

    I'm glad she worte "in spite of them", but why did it exhaust her. Was it because she had to do it in secret?

    I agree that any artistic person needs "stimulus" from those around us.

    Page 2 of 12:

    Yes, it does take a gret deal of self-control and pains to hide something you love doing from someone who neither understands you nor will make an effort in trying to understand your feeling about her craft. If only she could have had someone tell her that it was all right to write, if only for her own personal pleasure.

    Oh! How disturbing the paper is!I have large goose bumps going up and down my spine. How Gilman uses very little words to convey the mood of the story. In the 50s it was popular to wallpaper one wall of the bedroom. I used to lay awake at night and try to follow the pattern of the wallpaper. This story brings back a lot of memories. Some of them very scary. What's funny is that I can't remember what color the wallpaper was. But I do remember a definite pattern - flowers and people and lots of squiggly lines.

    Alf: I like your idea of why DRAUGHT is capitalized in the story. Perhaps this is a game like checkers between the characters. The story so far certainly encourages control, planning, strategy and the final "checkmate". It also might suggest a "draw" rather than a "checkmate."

    Kiwi lady: Have the times really changed that much? I can't help wonder if the thoughts of husbands and the medical profession is really any different than they were in the author's day. It seems that both want control of their spouses and their patients.

    Fariwinds: You're right about dark-leafed plants that thrive in a "shady garden". The possiblity only adds to the over-all mood of the story.

    Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

    Phyll
    November 5, 2003 - 06:16 pm
    I've long thought that this story was autobiographical and to some extent it is but not to the degree that I thought, according to Gilman herself. It seems she wrote it more in rebellion against the method of "cure" practised by the leading physician of her day and to whom she had been sent when she suffered what we would probably now call Post Partum Depression. In Gillman's own words this is why she wrote this story. Why I Wrote The Yellow Wallpaper It would be so interesting to be able to talk to her now and learn her thoughts on the lasting impression this story has made on so many people. What do you imagine she would think?

    Lou2
    November 5, 2003 - 06:35 pm
    Phyll, Thanks so much for that link... I would never have found that essay and it was a wonderful one.

    Lou

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 06:35 pm
    If we are going to consider that because DRAUGHT is emphasized by capitalization it has a special meaning other than the one which is stated: a draft from a window, we must also consider these other capitalized words in the first five pages.

    PERHAPS (Page 1)

    DELICIOUS (Page 1)

    REASON (Page 3)

    CANNOT (Page 3)

    KNEW (Page 4)

    BECAUSE (Page 5)

    WILL (Page 5)

    Perhaps if we put them all together in different sequences and make a sentence or two out of them, we'll have a real clue to what this story is about!

    (I don't think they have any hidden meaning at all. I think Gilman was trying to write in the way a person speaks, stressing some words and not others. Do they imply a sarcastic tone? Any thoughts about this?)

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 5, 2003 - 06:39 pm
    I think there are multiple meanings to the story: surface plot, allegory, supernatural are three I can mention off-hand. The yellow wallpaper has faded and changed colors. The most popular wallpaper of the 19th Century was Morris for the exhuberant design and color. I'd think the yellow flowers would be on greenish-yellow stems with leaves according to how it's described in the story. Here's more information on Morris wallpaper which was known during Gilman's lifetime and writing career:

    Morris Wallpaper

    Mineral Coloring

    Just one more element to consider.

    Marvelle

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 06:45 pm
    I also believe that capitals are used here to take the place of italics. Therefore, the word is italicized, as Mal suggested, to show stress in the sentence. If you take a look at the scanned image of the original as it was published in the New England Magazine (1891-2), you will see italics.

    Deems
    November 5, 2003 - 06:47 pm
    LINK to facsimile-- http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fnewe%2Fnewe0011%2F&tif=00655.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAFJ3026-0011-90&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50

    Here you will see, on the very first page, the word "perhaps" set in italics as are all those other stressed words.

    horselover
    November 5, 2003 - 06:57 pm
    Phyll, Thanks for the link to "Why I Wrote the Yellow Wallpaper." It tells a lot about the story and the author. This story reminds me a little of "The Snake Pit," another story of a woman's descent into madness and her return to a normal life. In this case, she was institutionalized, and it was only when she began to recognize what was going on around her as mad that she was ready for recovery.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2003 - 07:03 pm
    Anyone who has ever done any painting with oil paints or watercolor paint in a tube has to learn which pigments which are poisonous and try not to get too much of those paints on their skin or inhale them. This is almost a futile effort. Of all the artists I've known, and I've known plenty, none of them has ever gotten sick from their paint. (And neither have I.)

    "Chrome Yellow and Chrome Orange contain lead chromate pigment. They have been mostly discontinued because (1) they contain poisonous lead; and (2) they are not lightfast (their color fades with age)."

    " Black and Lamp Black are very similar. Carbon is the pigment in both of them. Ivory Black comes from charred animal bones, which produces a less strong carbon than the more powerful Lamp Black (not sure where the carbon in Lamb Black comes from)."

    Thalo green and Thalo blue are also two pigments to watch out for.

    Some wise artist said to me, "Well, Clorox bleach is poisonous, too, but I still use it in my laundry and to clean, and gasoline in my car and Elmer's glue."



    Now, if you're worried about poisonous effects of the paint and wallpaper in your room, here's a formula for a non-poisonous pigment I found on the web:

    "Go to the kitchen and get a little powdered saffron, powdered red food or cocoa and add a little oil (sunflower, poppy, walnut, safflower, it dosen't really matter which) and mix it up with a knife or spoon." Add vegetable oil and a little turpentine as a medium, and you'll have yourself a safe organic paint.

    Do we have any proof that William Morris wallpaper was used in the room our narrator was in?

    Mal

    Traude S
    November 5, 2003 - 08:10 pm
    My goodness, only with a marathon effort was I able to finally catch up; now I can post.

    Re delirium tremens : Do any of you remember the movie "The Lost Weekend" with Ray Milland and Jane Wyman ? Toward the end Milland has violent shaking and frightened out of his wits by hallucinations of ravens circling overhead menacing him = patently a sign of D.T.s, often the last stage of acute alcoholism.

    Was she ill ? I believe she was. How else could she have lost all touch with reality in three months ? In view of the fact that no other treatment of nervous disorders was known at the time, John had no other choice, and her own brother, also a doctor, did not disagree. John does come across as "insufferable" (Babi's word, I think), and I also sense a streak of cruelty in the man.

    I believe she, like the author, is a writer, that is her "work"; the keeping of a house certainly is not her "thing". She writes for herself, not for an audience, until it gets harder for her to do because of her constant exhaustion.

    My paperback edition was published in 1989 and titled The Yellow Wallpaper and Other Writings by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. The book was originally published under the name of Charlotte Perkins Stetson. She met Walter Stetson, a young painter, in 1882 and after two years of agonizing, analyzing and vacillating, she married him. But doubts had been justified, trouble began. Stetson was solicitous, Gilman was unfulfilled, fretful and had weeping fits. After the birth of her daughter Katharine she sank into a severe depression, was hardly able to read or do much else, not to mention care for a child.

    In The Yellow Wallpaper she drew on her treatment at the hands of the Philadelphia neurologist S. Weir Mitchell whose "rest cure" had been widely used on women with nervous disorders. It consisted of the patient's idling away the time, certainly no more than an hour's daily reading or writing or stimulating talk. It drove Gilman nearly mad but she "saved" herself, although depression returned to plague her for the rest of her life.

    The woman in the book is not so lucky. A virtual prisoner of her husband, watched and controlled, restricted essentially to the huge room with windows all around, all of them barred, all bare (!) - and, as Barbara said, with a gate (!) at the top of the stairs - she writes furtively and becomes mesmerized by the color and shades and pattern of the (already much abused) wallpaper. The description of her descent into madness is heart-breaking.

    Regarding divisions : there is only one dividing marker *** (before the 4th of July mention) in the paperback, but a double space is used in other places indicating further developments.

    BTW :"draught" is not capitalized but italicized.

    In my eagerness to read the posts before posting myself, I did not concentrate on the linked wallpaper samples long enough to detect movement.

    kiwi lady
    November 5, 2003 - 08:36 pm
    I believe if it is true that depression plagued our author on and off for the rest of her life the author may well have been suffering from a serious mental illness that is why she had recurring bouts of depression. Most people do not suffer multiple episodes of clinical depression they may have one or two during their lifetime and others may never suffer it. It is amazing how many writers suffered from mental illness- I could probably name a dozen I have come across - all extremely talented men and women.

    I think women do have more control over their treatment today than they did thirty years ago. I certainly had plenty of choices and also a Choice of male or female therapist. I chose a female therapist.

    Carolyn

    besprechen
    November 5, 2003 - 08:39 pm
    What an interesting discussion this story has spawned! And the links suggested are so good, e.g. the Morris Wallpaper site provided by Marvelle.

    Traude S
    November 5, 2003 - 09:27 pm
    CAROLYN, I have always thought that there is such a fine line between genius and insanity. Schopenhauer and Nietzsche come to mind.

    Yes, besprechen, it is amazing how much "meat" we found in a mere twenty pages (paperback)!

    kiwi lady
    November 6, 2003 - 12:28 am
    Traude - I think this story tells of an issue that is not generally spoken of even today. I have really enjoyed everyones opinions and what they got out of the story. I must be pretty dumb because to me I don't see any hidden meaning or cleverness about the story I think its just an account of the authors journey into a period of insanity.

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 12:41 am
    I have a strong tendency to agree with you, CAROLYN, but there are many who feel there is much more to this story than the journey you describe.

    Below is a link to a site, which, if you follow all the links, gives you various interpretations of "The Yellow Wallpaper", including one that says the figure behind the wallpaper is the narrator's repressed self. There is reference to ghosts and haunting and the "smell" of ghosts and haunting.

    There is a feminist interpretation. Another says there is homo-eroticism in this story.

    There is this definition of yellow:
    "Yellow: (1.) According to Lanser, the color in Gilman’s cultural era 'applied not only to the Chinese, Japanese, and the light-skinned African-Americans but also to Jews, Poles, Hungarians, Italians, and even the Irish' and symbolized 'inferiority, strangeness, cowardice, ugliness, and backwardness'
    Someone else says that daylight represents "masculine order and domestic routine". During the night the narrator feels freed from masculine domination. She and her imagination are "empowered". Night is the time of haunting and ghosts.

    There is a quote from her diary:
    Gilman states, "I made a rag baby . . . hung it on the doorknob and played with it. I would crawl into remote closets and under beds-to hide from the grinding pressure of that profound distress"
    There is a statement that Harriet Beecher Stowe was Gilman's aunt. She suffered from the same type of "nervous disorder" that Gilman did, so did another Beecher, Catherine. Apparently there were others in her family who were strong feminist fighters.

    "Tearing the paper: (1.) In this act, the narrator 'assists the double to break free from the forms that confine her'; yet this act can also be viewed as 'not intended . . . to free her from male repression, as has been suggested, but to eliminate the rebellious self which is preventing her from achieving her ego-ideal'; a 'destruction of the other self.' "

    "Sickness: (1.) The state represents 'the breaking free, even if only in the hallucination of madness . . . ' If it is the 'result of her alienation from the role society expects her to play, then her insistence that she is ill is an evasion of that reality'; 'In the abject helplessness of her insanity lies the means of power by which her repressed shadow can gain a form of victory'(King 25, 27, 31) (2.) This insanity 'madness,’ [is] a potent metaphor for feminine anger”

    There is a portion about the "Cult of True Womanhood", which Ginny mentioned.

    It's very, very late, so I'm going to post the link to this fascinating page because I don't think it's fair that I and perhaps some others here have access to this page while the rest of you don't. Depending on your computer, you may find it a long download.




    Web page about Gilman and the Yellow Wallpaper

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 12:45 am
    The Cult of Domesticity and True Womanhood

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 12:51 am
    Man is great in action - Woman in suffering.
    Man shines abroad - Woman at home.
    Man talks to convince - Woman to persuade and please.
    Man has a rugged heart - Woman a soft and tender one.
    Man prevents misery - Woman relieves it.
    Man has science - Woman taste.
    Man has judgement - Woman sensibility.
    Man is a being of justice - Woman an angel of mercy.







    A Reply from Soujourner Truth (1795-1883)
    (a speech recorded by Frances D. Gage, Chair Presiding of the woman's convention at Akron, Ohio, 1851)

    Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the south and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?



    That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen them most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?



    Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [Intellect, someone whispers.] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negro's rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half-measure full?



    Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.



    If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.



    Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.


    Source:

    Sojourner Truth

    kiwi lady
    November 6, 2003 - 01:55 am
    I am totally in agreement with women having choices but it seems to me today that there has been a reversal of thinking to the detriment of the woman who chooses to stay at home and raise her family. I always worked but I see the difference that a stay at home Mum has made with my two grandaughters. My daughter told me although she was proud of the work that I did over the years she yearned to have her Mum home when she walked in from school. I took 6 mths leave of absence at one time and my daughter told me she would run all the way home from school she was so happy to be able to have hot cocoa and home baking awaiting her for afternoon tea and me to chat to about her day. She was about 13 then - not a baby. Today society expects a woman to take up a career and doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for those who choose to be homemakers while their children are growing up.

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 07:34 am
    Well I hate to keep exclaiming like a fool, but I can't help it, this is incredibly rich, what you've all brought here, and since we have to start somewhere, let's start with only one for a minute and then get to ALL of them, thank you ALL for these incredible submissions!!!!

    Let's start with the Cornell link: Maryal!! What a find what a find, thank you for putting the Cornell link here, yes we can SEE her own divisions (in asterisks: ******) (and also the appearance and the illustrations used originally, love it love it, we've written Cornell for permission to use those illustrations, and until we hear back from them, Pat will put another one here in the heading today),

    All right, this has changed my own approach and I'd like to ask you all just for the heck of it to reread the story ON the Cornell site, either by printing it out for your own use or just viewing it there (you may have to hit each page twice, I did, otherwise it says DONE and it's not) with a view to this, if you're wiling to play this new game:

  • Read to the bottom of page 650, THAT is the equivalent of Page 5 in our own text.
  • Do you see any significance in where she has ended her sections? Is anything at all different in the divisions? Is each section a contained unit with a beginning middle and end? Or not?
  • Would you say that the last lines themselves before her lines of asterisks indicate anything in particular? Do they tell a story in themselves?
  • If you do see changes in the Narrator or the tone in each individual unit, can you identify anything which seems to have triggered these changes?
  • Do you see any difference at all in Narrator in the beginning of each section and the end? (this slant of questioning comes from the www.ksu.edu/english site and I am anxious to understand it, IF it's there?

    I don't know about you, I know we are all different, but I'm the kind of person who absolutely HATES to miss something? If I'm in an audience and everybody is laughing at an "In Joke" I want to be IN! I also WANT to know. Here, potentially, is something done carefully, it may or it may not be there? It MAY or it MAY NOT make any difference in your own enjoyment and understanding, but I am NOT willing to let it go by, and us be on the "outside" of this, so this morning have printed out (again!) our own text, (because mine is so marked now I can't read it) marked it in red where she ends and in blue where Cornell ends) and then realized I could print out Cornell and did that. Now why do all that? Because IF IF IF there is something here to "discover," as Narrator has herself done, I want us to see it too! Hahahaha So will you please reread the story (if you're game, if not, hold on till tomorrow when we'll take up Pages 6- and see IF you see anything, any contained stories, any differences in Narrator at the beginning and the end of each ***** section, and when I get thru will be back, some of the stuff you all have brought here is just incredible and we are so grateful to each of you for your invaluable assistance in perspectives and historical, and literary background!

    Back in a minute….
  • Phyll
    November 6, 2003 - 07:50 am
    The most interesting thing in this discussion is the differing agendas that we bring to our interpretations of this story. The feminist angle was the LEAST of my viewpoints and honestly never really occurred to me when I first read this story in my teens. I was interested in psychology at that time in my life and the psychological aspect of the story was what did, and still does, intrigue me. And frankly, I still believe that aspect was Gilman's purpose for writing this story. Her argument against the accepted treatment of mental illness was a strongly personal one. The feminist issue was apparently an important one to her but in this particular story, and in my opinion, a secondary one. A necessary one, but not the principal one.

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 07:59 am
    Phyll (and thank YOU for that wonderful link to Gilman's own words, am coming to it next) but I think that's one thing that simply astounds me about this thing, it's like the professor of my class told me about Gandhi on Tuesday, we are reading Gandhi's autobiography and some of us think he's a simple man but some of us have been told how brilliant and devious and Machiavellian and complex he was, and so I asked the professor flat out, which IS it? What WAS he? Simple or complex?

    It would seem that those are opposite? And he said BOTH, he was BOTH of those and ALL of those and more we have not mentioned.

    Likewise this story is ALL things to different people depending, and I do like your take on which is primary and which secondary, I would like to use that as a question at the end if you will allow it? I am going to put up shortly some of the things different approaches see as the wallpaper symbolizing? You wil truly be amazed at not only the diversity but how some of the takes are totally opposite and THAT'S what makes for a super discussion, I would not have thought of half of what you all have brought up, but am off to reread!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 09:39 am
    Charlotte Perkins Gilman apparently had a hard time finding a publisher for this story. She sent it first to William Dean Howells. He turned it over to Horace Scudder, editor of the Atlantic Monthly. Scudder wrote to Gilman and said:
    "Dear Madam, Mr. Howells has handed me this story. I could not forgive myself if I made others as miserable as I have made myself ! Sincerely yours, H.E. Scudder"

    I read that "in the 1890s editors, and especially Scudder, still officially adhered to a canon of 'moral uplift' in literature, and Gilman's story, with its heroine reduced at the end to the level of a groveling animal, scarcely fitted the prescribed formula. One wonders, however, whether hints of the story's attack on social mores--specifically on the ideal of the submissive wife--came through to Scudder and unsettled him?

    "The story was finally published, in May 1892, in Tbe New England Magazine, where it was greeted with strong but mixed feelings. Gilman was warned that such stories were 'perilous stuff,' which should not be printed because of the threat they posed to the relatives of such 'deranged' persons as the heroines..."


    Maryal's find of the story as printed in The New England Magazine settles for me, at least, questions about the capitalized words, as well as those about the two sentence paragraphs. In magazine print they do not look as startling as in the version I was reading on the web.

    The New England Magazine's publication shows the lines the author put in very well, too. Before I could only imagine where they were. Up to Page 5 I see them as marking passage of time, or marking the interruption of the narrator's writing by someone like Jennie coming into the room. I do not read anything else into them, though I suppose someone else might.

    I read that Gilman's use of short, terse sentences and paragraphs was startling new at the time, and part of what makes this story so compelling. Apparently in later works she did not use this method, and some people called her later, more conventional style boring. What I read implied that Gilman hit her peak with "The Yellow Wallpaper" and did not match or exceed it after that.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 10:07 am
    It has been mentioned that there is a Gothic feeling about this story. I first noticed it in the beginning when the narrator tells of peculiar feelings she had when she first entered the house.

    I have used the word "haunted" when referring to the narrator. The figure behind the moving wallpaper seems almost like a ghost. Just after Page 5 there comes the mention of an odor, a "yellow smell", also considered by some analysts to be representative of ghosts and haunting.

    I see that the history of the house, and especially the room, bothers the narrator. She's wonders about damage to the wallpaper and other fixtures in the room. Who put them there and why? How was the room used in the past? Nurseries should have a happy feel to them. This room has the reverse.



    I am a very imaginative person. It has been hard for me sometimes to move into a rented apartment or house that belonged to someone else before it was mine. I could actually feel the previous renters or owners in these places until I put my own mark on them in the form of furnishings and little treasures I have, or a coat of new paint.

    It was awful to me when my husband and I bought a house in Indianapolis once which was sold with some furniture in it. Except for not being my taste, the furniture didn't bother me. The freezer in the cellar did. It was full of food the wife of the previous owner had frozen herself. We were told that she had died a few months before. My imagination is such that when I took out those packages to throw them away I could see her putting up this food, and I could feel the pain of her dying. Am I nuts? Sure I am! Or maybe I'm just an artist.

    I am not only old; I am poor, and the best place for me to shop is a thrift shop. I find something I like that I think will fit me (never try it on in the shop), buy it and take it home. Even after I wash these clothes, when I put them on I imagine that I can feel the person who wore them before. This is not good for someone who must buy things cheap!

    It's strange, because I love old houses, especially those in New England, and I love old dishes and furniture. Some of the things which I have bought make me feel very good. Others make me feel bad, and I get rid of them. It's not because I don't like them; it's because something about them, maybe their past, affects me in a negative way.

    The narrator of this story felt the past of the room with the yellow wallpaper. It did not make her feel good. I have wondered more than once if the room with the yellow wallpaper had been used before to house a very sick, mentally ill person.

    What I'm saying here, I guess, is that there are ghosts of some kind in that house, especially that room, and the narrator is very disturbed by them, so much so that she wants desperately to get out.

    No, I don't believe in ghosts or the supernatural, though I have written a couple of books with ghosts in them. Haunted by history, that's what I am, and the more history I read, the more I see reason for being that way. The narrator is haunted by the history of that house, which we readers and she will never know.

    Mal

    Hallie Mae
    November 6, 2003 - 10:46 am
    What an incredible amount of information about this little short story! Maryal's find of the printing of the original, Phyl's "Why she wrote it" . Like Carolyn, I too took the story at face value but the wealth of comments about it have been such eye openers.

    I would guess as senior female citizens, most of us have gone through some periods of depression in our lives. We can empathize with the writers who have described their bouts with severe depression and their fight to get back to "normal".

    Speaking of haunted houses, my Uncle Terry's room in my grandmother's house had the reputation of being a "nightmare" room., everyone had had a creepy experience while sleeping there. I recall sleeping there one night when I was about 9 or 10 and "seeing" what looked like a gorgon's head coming at me, from the other side of the room - of course I screamed and everyone came running upstairs to calm me down. Was my nightmare the power of suggestion, hearing stories about the room, who knows.

    Hallie Mae

    judywolfs
    November 6, 2003 - 10:50 am
    I don't know about that Mal - It's a very interesting idea, that the room's history is intruding upon the wife. I can understand that concept, especially after reading the very clearly presented description of your reaction to previously used furniture and clothing. Not to mention other things I have read (notably "The Haunting of Hill House" - what a chiller that was!).

    That being said, in this story there doesn't seem to be any indication of a history except for the wife's own conjecture of the room being used as a nursery, a playroom and then a gym.

    I would venture to say that the wallpaper wasn't ripped and the bed wasn't chewed upon until after she took up residence in the room.

    JudyW

    Deems
    November 6, 2003 - 11:08 am
    judywolfs said, "I would venture to say that the wallpaper wasn't ripped and the bed wasn't chewed upon until after she took up residence in the room."

    Yep, me too!

    Phyll
    November 6, 2003 - 11:24 am
    "Likewise this story is ALL things to different people depending, and I do like your take on which is primary and which secondary, I would like to use that as a question at the end if you will allow it? "

    Of course you may do with it what you will, Ginny. You are doing such a great job at "stirring the pot" of this wonderful discussion that I trust you to do whatever you have in mind.

    I just returned from grocery shopping--not my most favorite weekly chore so I try to reserve part of my mind for more interesting thoughts than the ever rising price of meat. Today it suddenly dawned on me that The Yellow Wallpaper had become a mirror! Not just for the protagonist of the story, who gradually begins to see herself in the moving wallpaper (though she never truly realizes it), but that each of us, as the reader/observer, sees the reflection of our own different interests and experiences in the story. It is a source of wonder to me that we come together here from all over the world to "talk" about this story. That we come from different places and different experiences and different times and yet we are in many ways so much alike. Isn't it amazing!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 11:37 am
    I stand doubly corrected and twice as shy. Regardless:
    Charlotte Perkins Gilman published a monthly magazine called "The Forerunner". She started it in November 1909 and wrote most of the articles herself. If you click the link below, you will see what an enormous amount of work she did.

    "Women we have sharply delimited. Women were a sex, 'the sex,' according to chivalrous toasts; they were set apart for special services peculiar to femininity. As one English scientist put it, in 1888, 'Women are not only not the race--they are not even half the race, but a subspecies told off for reproduction only.' This mental attitude toward women is even more clearly expressed by Mr. H. B. Marriot-Watson in his article on The American Woman in the Nineteenth Century for June, 1904, where he says: 'Her constitutional restlessness has caused her to abdicate those functions which alone excuse or explain her existence.' This is a peculiarly happy and condensed expression of the relative position of women during our androcentric culture. The man was accepted as the race type without one dissentient voice; and the woman--a strange, diverse creature, quite disharmonious in the accepted scheme of things--was excused and explained only as a female."

    The Forerunner, Issue 1

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 12:30 pm
    Want to listen to a dramatization of this story? If you do, click below.

    Dramatization of The Yellow Wallpaper

    BaBi
    November 6, 2003 - 01:11 pm
    You are quite right, PHYLL. I think all of us have found things in this story that touched a sore spot, as witness the huge number of daily posts. It has stirred up memories, resentments, questions and doubts. Ms. Gilman is skilled at stirring up the pot....'double,double, toil and trouble'. ..Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 01:43 pm
    The Gothic idea and the possibility of ghosts in this story and possession of the narrator by those ghosts was not original with me. Marvelle mentioned the supernatural, and there is something about both these things on the very good web site I linked early, early this morning. These subjects triggered off memories in me, which I posted today, too.

    In my ramblings around the web I just found several articles which mention Foucault's Panoptican thesis in relation to "The Yellow Wallpaper." Simply put, Foucault's idea is that human beings go around acting if someone is watching them and what they do all the time. If no one is with them, they become their own watcher, a kind of uncomfortable voyuerism.

    The narrator, called Anne in the dramatization and on the Scribblers site from which it came, sees eyes in the yellow wallpaper. Even when she's hidden away from her husband and Jennie, she feels as if someone's watching her when she's doing the illicit act of writing. This prompts the thought of another reason for her tearing off the wallpaper to leave the wall blank without those disturbing eyes. I'm not sure I go along with this idea, but it's interesting to think about.

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 6, 2003 - 01:52 pm
    Thanks, besprechen re the Morris wallpaper links I posted. Interesting, eh?

    Ginny's questions are often multi-layered and sometimes I can only chip at an edge of one but I'll try here.

    Question 4 -- The story is full of fantastic, spooky Gothic images which add woderfully to the atmosphere of the piece. Can you identify one you thought particularly set the tone?

    The very start of the story set the tone for me: "It is very seldom that mere ordinary people like John and myself secure ancestral halls for the summer. A colonial mansion, a hereditary estate, I would say a haunted house . . . there is something queer about it."

    Gilman goes about setting the scene and we feel this is a supernatural, gothic tale complete with a haunted house.

    Here are links to the Gothic genre which are succinct and quite telling:

    What Is the Gothic?

    Is There a Female Gothic (FG)?

    ___________________________________

    In question 4, Ginny also asks if we see any literary devices. She mentions personification. Others I see:

    1 -- Allegory of the restrictions of females in society of rigidly gendered roles and the harm it causes.

    2 -- Alliteration, for example the use of the sibilant, hissing, snakelike 'S' in "There's sister on the stairs!"

    3 -- Antagonist, use of John as the opposing force

    4 -- Aside, I think of this story more as an aside than a dramatic monologue. As the narrator speaks directly to the reader, not to be heard by the other characters to let us know what the narrator is thinking. But then, I also see the literary device of:

    5 -- Unreliable Narrator, there are important pieces to the puzzle that are left out in her telling; we can't accept wholecloth what she says

    6 -- Repetition, used by writers to emphasize the importance of a word or idea. For example, the narrator describes the wallpaper and uses the word 'hate' in close succession: "No wonder the children hated it [wallpaper]! I should hate it myself if I had to live in this room long. There comes John, and I must put this away, -- he hates to have me write a word."

    7 -- Metaphor/symbol, the wallpaper (discussed earlier)

    8 -- Motif, the wallpaper is also a recurring image

    9 -- Irony, used frequently in this story as a type of rebellion. Example: "John is away all day, and even some nights when his cases are serious. I am glad my case is not serious!" (Meaning, John would be day and night if her case was serious and she doesn't want that? Irony.)

    There are many more literary devices, including hyperbole and the rhetorical question, but this post is long enough and I don't want to be the only one posting answers. Perhaps others care to address Question 4 or another of Ginny's questions?

    Marvelle

    ALF
    November 6, 2003 - 02:12 pm
    Wonderful choice of words-- a mirror image the wallpaper has become, indeed. Is it mimicking her thoughts as well as pesonifying them?

    She's attempting to "distinguish the order of it" mcuh the same as her own direction. She sees the "slanting waves of optic horror". Optic horror!!! Gads, that is so profound. The bloated curves" waddling up and down in isolated columns of fatuity. She's reflecting herself in the recesses of the paper, reproducing and absorbing her own being right into that ugly paper. The paper is her counterpart, duplicating her very essence.

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 02:27 pm
    Wow (I swore I would not say that again or gush, but I can't help it, wow? wow?) And my goodness Marvelle with the wonderful post, I can't take my eyes off it long enough to post and look at all these fabulous LINKS you all have provided, we must get them up in the heading, wow. Andrea, posting together wow II.

    What I have to say I'm going to say first before I get to what YOU all said because what YOU said is so profound, some of you just diffidently throw something out and it's like a bomb, to me, and like Phyll in the Grocery (which is what we're all supposed to be doing, we're all supposed to be "Phyll in the Grocery,") that is, we take away from here a concept or idea, we reflect on what all the others have said, it's like a fun house with reverberating voices, and then, suddenly, while walking or doing the laundry or putting up the dishes or looking at yellow boxes in the grocery, suddely it hits us! A THEORY!

    You can't get ANY better than that, and that's all anybody hopes for in leading a book discussion, and we have myriad instances here of it, I'm just floored.

    Tomorrow we'll read Pages 6-8 So I'm going to start with my own small offering today and want to really hit on what you all have said, it's important.

    In looking at the Gilman facsimile text, it's amazing what stands out at you and what does not? I almost have to ask is it the SAME text? It does not seem so, to me. I am struck anew by such lines as "It is stripped off--the paper-in great patches all around the head of my bed, about as far as I can reach ..." wow. And I am definitely seeing a demarcation in the first and second sections but I don't know WHY? I don't know what has turned the wallpaper in the second section into something that "The paper looks to me as if it knew what a vicious influence it had." The paper seems to be personified as another living thing (and even tho this is brushed off by the recounting of childish "fancies," the statement is there. The paper looks to Narrator as if it knew what a vicious influence it has.

    We're talking about wallpaper.

    I can't see any causative agent tho unless it's guilt over not being a "helpmeet." Can you? Something must have caused it?

    Then I'm struck by the windows, have you noticed that the view from the WINDOWS (which are barred) is always good? "lovely… beautiful …lovely…lovely." Those are the actual adjectives used in the second part in contrast to "horrid, atrocious, vicious, repellant, revolting, unclean, lurid, sickly." and many more on the inside. It's almost a Lady of Shallot type of thing. Looking OUT to Camelot although she had to look in a mirror in order to view the world....there's something there but I can't grasp it? But there's something there being hinted at.

    Broken necks, bulbous eyes and Malryn mentions Foucault, love it.

    You can SEE the outside lovely world clearly but the wallpaper is beginning to change, "This wallpaper has a kind of sub-pattern in a different shade, a particularly irritating one, for you can only see it in certain lights, and not clearly then."

    I have read The System which Marvelle mentioned to us by Poe, it's on the internet, I had never heard of it and it's possible it's a parallel, the key to it is perspective, POV, and the key to this one might be that, also, VIEW is stressed here by author Gilman, it may be for a reason, it may not? But it sure does strike me as funny that the VIEW the Narrator has is different depending on how she chooses to explain it to us?

    Delicious to contemplate.

    And while we're contemplating that, let's dwell on this one a mo: from Paula Treichler's essay (I like a lot of what she says but don't like some of it, it's her opinion, but here's one you might want to consider, on the use of the terms depression and hysteria in the piece,
    Contemporary readers could (and some did) read the story as a realistic account of madness; for feminist readers (then and now) who bring into the text some comprehension of medical attitudes toward women in the 19th century, such a non-ironic reading is not possible. Lest we miss Gilman's point, her use of a real proper name in her story, Weir Mitchell's, draws explicit attention to the world outside the text.

    OK I have one more question and it's a doozy:
    "sticketh closer than a brother." What are the implications of this phrase?

    more….

    judywolfs
    November 6, 2003 - 02:49 pm
    She would never know HOW the wallpaper sticketh (to the wall) unless she had already started pulling it off. - JudyW

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 03:12 pm
    OK here I come with emphasis on your own points, if I make a mistake and misquote you, jump in, even with split screens you can screw something up.

    I'm getting up a list of what you all see the wallpaper symbolizing,
  • Malryn said it symbolizes a prison.
    Fairwinds, no movement in la belle France??!!?? Merde!! Hahahaah

    Thank you and Malryn for talking about schizophrenia which I also never considered till you mentioned it.

    And Marvelle, on the AIR, yes the AIR is mentioned quite a bit too, there's definitely a claustrophobic feeling or feeling of being trapped or imprisoned here, I agree.

    Malryn and Maryal, certainly I know who you are, I'm sorry, I need to copy each of your names before I refer to your posts!!!!!

    Horselover, good point on schizophrenia, (and hormones!)

    Faith thank you for the 1913 definition of neurasthenia, isn't that interesting?

    And Carolyn with Fibromyalgia, another disease doctors tend to brush off as "fancy."

    Marvelle, I like this one: " The gradual coming-to-life of the wallpaper, its changing nature of yellow-sickly-sulfur-moving is the narrator coming to conscious awareness of the unfair restriction." Ooo, I like that.

    Diane, excellent point on hysteria, see my post above and I love yellow with white trim too, so clean (tho Narrator finds it unclean) hahaha on the decorator. When we moved to this house my kitchen and pantry walls were mustard yellow. I like yellow, the sun rises over the kitchen but the color began to wear on me, too dark, so I had it lightened and it looks less…..strident, just a happy glow now, till I went to Monet's house in France, have any of you ever been there? BRIGHT MUSTARD YELLOW in the kitchen with BRIGHT BLUE TRIM. I wanted to go back home and repaint. Ahahahaha

    I like the discussion about the writing on the wallpaper by Marvelle and Diane. Maryal says the glue would prohibit it, would it? If John does not want her to write, why is she supplied with writing supplies? Pencil? Paper? Makes you wonder what she's using for a pen?

    The Wallpaper "Sticketh closer than a brother?" Love that, lots of meaning there, isn't there? Wonderful things to contemplate.

    Oh here's something, I read this wrong:
    is the pattern of women's restricted lives in Gilman's time, and is the pattern (structure) of "The Yellow Wallpaper" as a story that's writing over and changing the wallpaper."
    Love that by Marvelle.

    Maryal, if the Narrator did write on the front side of the paper, what would that mean?

    Judywolfs, we are discussing Pages 3-5 for today and tomorrow we'll read 6-8 in our online text.

    The questions for this section are always in the heading for your consideration.

    more….
  • judywolfs
    November 6, 2003 - 03:12 pm
    The wallpaper has become a mirror. Very interesting, and disturbing.

    JudyW

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 03:13 pm
    "She would never know HOW the wallpaper sticketh (to the wall) unless she had already started pulling it off. - JudyW " HOO HAH! Good point!

    How close has her own brother stuck?

    Is that a famous quotation, it sure seems like it?

    ginny

    Deems
    November 6, 2003 - 03:21 pm
    "A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother."

    Proverbs 18:24

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 03:33 pm
    Malryn or her Evil Twin The Great Pumpkin Head (that's the way I’m going to refer to you both from now on) was talking about peeling paper in a place she rented once and I have to ask you all if it's logical that this house would have been rented in this condition, the further we go the worse it is and it really gets worse. Of course as several of you have pointed out the chewed bed (I thought she said it was iron originally, how do you chew iron?) and it's NAILED to the floor, for Pete's sake, not too many beds are nailed to the floor in gymnasiums, are they? Do you think she's in a madhouse? A private one?

    Oh good point Babi on her fighting against deterioration, I like that, she's fighting back!! That's a positive thought?

    Barb, good point on the documentary and the parallels, I hate those things where the camera man will NOT help, some horrendous footage out of Chechnya and the camera just kept shooting, talk about ETHICAL behavior! We need to get into that here, too!<br.
    I loved the way you put that, Barb , about pages 3,4, and 5.
    All stimulations was removed so that her response is deep tiredness and gradually removing herself from all that represents control into what she and no one else can control. Almost like anorexia is control that gets away from you till it controls you. She is slipping into the wallpaper controlling her...


    OH and I LOVE that about focusing exclusively on anyone or anything, like people who get obsessed with computers for instance or gambling!

    Oh I have seen that old glue our M&M but I'm not sure that's what was used back then and yes, GPH, I did see the Old Oaken Bucket, I LOVE that site, many many many thanks!!

    The talk of Christmas and holiday expectations makes me want to urge all of you to come over to two discussions during the holiday season and give YOURSELF a break and a gift, the Couldn't Keep it to Myself by Wally Lamb and the PBS Program Clubs POV production, both featuring women in prison, let's not wait for the Ghost of Marley to come to us this holiday season, let's see if we can reach out right from our own homes and consider those less fortunate, you'd ALL be perfect in those discussions and Wally Lamb himself AND several of the women writers will be in our discussion!! Do plan to come, please do!

    I really lke YiLi's take on the language Narrator uses and the idea that she may be "using us." I would like us to consider that and remember it. And your point about blaming the external, I think is very well taken, I believe that's exactly what she's doing!

    Barbara, I did not see the GATE at the top of the stairs, like you I am seeing a LOT in the original I don't see in our copy and I don't know why? Has anybody compared them?

    Fairwinds, THANK you for the cult of true womanhood, isn't that something, hahaha as you said more than anybody wants to know!!!

    Fascinating womanhood, huh? I like your take on maybe this is a backlash of one of these movements and maybe she's not as sick as we think, I LOVE the way this type of discussion allows you to swing back and forth just like you do when you read alone but heck when you read alone you don't have a French voice whispering, "maybe she's not as sick as we thought.") hahahaah or do YOU? Hahahaah

    OK!! We must know right now!! What type of wallpaper glue did they use in the 1800's!?@?

    Scrawler!! Love the name, how appropriate here, I really like YOUR approach, you doubt all and trust nobody and I like that, questioning all the way. Love it. Oh and this was very good, "The story so far certainly encourages control, planning, strategy and the final "checkmate". It also might suggest a "draw" rather than a "checkmate." Oooo lovely, do you think Narrator is playing a game with US?

    more….

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 03:35 pm
    HO! The Giant Pumpkin Head comes thru again, Proverbs, huh? "and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Proverbs 18:24

    Who might that friend be in this thing, I wonder?

    Scrawler
    November 6, 2003 - 03:54 pm
    Page 3 of 12: Personally I think it is difficult to understand how another person feels unless she/he tells them about it. And than a doctor might think in clinical terms and feel no REASON why the patient suffers and puts the problem out of his mind. But that doesn't mean that the patient isn't suffering in her own mind and body.

    I think the "wallpaper" becomes a focal point for the woman because when she talks about the wallpaper her husband laughs at her. It seems to me that the reason for not re-papering the wall because it would give into her fancies is a poor excuse. I would think if he never mentioned re-papering at all it would have been more logical and the mere fact that they were only going to be there for only the summer.

    The paragraph about imagining "people walking in the numerous paths and arbors" I found most interesting. Imagination is one of the basics for creative writing and does not necessarily mean that the person has a "nervous weakness". Perhaps it is because John is not imaginative himself that he considers her imagination a "nervous weakness."

    Page 4 of 12: "This paper looks to me as if it KNEW what a vicious influence it had! There is a recurrent spot where the pattern lolls like a broken neck and two bulous eyes stare at you upside down." Oh! What wonderful imagery! It sends chills up and down my spine.

    "I used to lie awake as a child and get more entertainment and terror out of a blank wall and plain furniture than most children could find in a toy store." Now, this is really making me afraid. I used to do the same thing. I was an only child for about eight years and I used to spend a lot of time in my room alone. I used to give the walls and things "life" to the point that sometimes I actually frightened myself. I always did like horror stories even back then.

    "This wall-paper has a kind of sub-pattern in a different shade, a particularly irritating one, for you can only see it in certain lights, and not clearly then." Now this is an interesting statement. Could this be a metaphor that applies to people? Do you know anyone that underneath may be a different person that you can't really see on the surface but is just festering on the inside. How about con men?

    Page 5 of 12: I'm still not convinced that she is really sick. If she can reason that she dosen't want to go to Weir Michell, how can she be sick.

    "I'm getting really found of the room in spit of the wall-paper. Perhaps BECAUSE of the wall-paper." Well, of course she is. If I was left alone in a room like that without being able to write or communicate with anyone I would think that the only thing of interest would be the WALLPAPER. I'm a bit of a recluse myself, but thanks to you folks on the Internet I've probably spoken to more people since I've retired than I have ever spoken to in my entire life.

    Oh! I quite agree that following that pattern on the wallpaper is like gymnastics for the mind. Sometimes when I can't sleep, I stare up at the ceiling and try and trace the bubbles of plaster as they curve around and around - it's just as good as counting sheep. But listening to music is better.

    If a perscon perceives that the wallpaper "looked at in one way each breadth stands alone, the bloated curves and flourishes - a kind of "debased Romanesque" with delirum tremens - go waddling up and down in isolated columns of fatuity. But the other hand slanting waves of opitic horror, like a lot of wallowing seaweeds in full chase" I guess there really isn't much more you can say. What wonderful imagery! I would say that her imagination was running away with her. But again I can't emphasize that if she had been able to expess these thoughts through her writing what a difference it would have made for her. I think my chills and goose bumps are having chills and goose bumps of their own now!

    Ginny: I would say that "dead paper" would be paper that is empty of life. To the speaker the "wallpaper" was more alive than even she was.

    For many people in the 1800s, medicine was still considered no more than the practice of witchcraft. There were even some doctors who thought you had to SUFFER when you were ill because that was part of the illness. "1839: The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it...Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consiousness of the patient." - Dr. Alfred Velpeau, Professor, Paris Faculty of Medicine. ("The Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the 1800s" P. 158)Home remedies were used by a good number of people. In America it was the American Civil War that hastened the changes in medicine.

    Marlyn (Mal: I agree with you that Gilman wrote sometimes for effect. I believe that all fiction has a grain of truth in it, but to me fiction is writen for entertainment purposes. I am sure Gilman was familiar with mental problems and she took her observations and feelings and created an enjoyable story.

    Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

    Ginny
    November 6, 2003 - 04:09 pm
    In Edit: Scrawler, we were posting together (isn't this fun?) More tomorrow on your great post!

    Lots of great points raised, thank you Phyll of Grocery Fame for Why I Wrote The Yellow Wallpaper, that's super. I bet she'd be gratified and pleased we "got" what she was trying to say, I wish we could talk to her.

    Malryn and GPH, funny on putting the words together and making a sentence, would you just DIE if it worked? Hahahaah I am not sure what the italicizing means, I'm saying nothing like Robert Frost, till I see!

    Marvelle, well done on the multiple layers:
    I think there are multiple meanings to the story: surface plot, allegory, supernatural are three I can mention off-hand.
    I love that. And thanks for the links, I wish we DID know what this wallpaper was!

    Horselover, good point on The Snake Pit, too!

    Oh interesting point on the paint, M of M&M, I just read a fascinating thing about Napoleon and HIS wallpaper!

    hahaah ahahah Traude, welcome! "Marathon effort" I know how you feel, isn't it WONDERFUL!

    VERY good point on how fast she went down in only 3 months! Well done.

    Do you all know that THIS was a movie, too? Have you all seen it? How does it compare?

    THANK you for the background of Gilman as Stetson. I did not know that.

    Besprechen, I agree, the submissions are fabulous and so are the links, thank you!

    M&M I really like the definitions of yellow and I've got a pile of interpretations for you all, too.

    Carolyn, you're doing just fine as per always!

    ooo lookie here at what M&M brought in here:
    Sickness: (1.) The state represents 'the breaking free, even if only in the hallucination of madness . . . ' If it is the 'result of her alienation from the role society expects her to play, then her insistence that she is ill is an evasion of that reality';
    wow, do tell, now THERE'S a theory!

    I really think we need to read some Sojouner Truth and we ALL need to see ALL of the references available to us all on the internet, if it's on the internet it's open to all, so bring 'em ON!

    Carolyn that's a good point about the stay at home mom, things were different in the author's day, there's something swirling around at me here about career and stay at home and the True Womanhood thing but it keeps eluding me.

    M&M thank you for the great information on how hard it was for Gilman to get this story published, wasn't she shunned for divorcing her husband or something? OH and very good point on the "sulfur" smell and the haunting!!!!!

    VERY interesting theory on the Narrator's being haunted by the history of the house, she sure seems to know the children hated the paper.

    Hallie Mae, interesting story about your own experience, I think we've all encountered something like that, and later on we don't know as we retell it whether or not it was real or just suggestion, I know I stayed in a house in Cornwall on the cliff of the ocean and when the windows were open it screamed so, and moaned that I had to close the windows in stifling heat (all the singing of "They call the wind Mariah," did no good, could not stand that noise).

    Judywolfs, great point on the Haunting of Hill House, and wasn't there another movie where the house actually consumed the people? I seem to recall shingles falling off as the house put on a new roof, THAT was some movie and a fantastic book, wasn't Bette Davis in that thing? Super book and scared the heck out of me.

    Why thank you our Phyll in the Grocery, I will endeavor to live up to your trust!

    Today it suddenly dawned on me that The Yellow Wallpaper had become a mirror! Not just for the protagonist of the story, who gradually begins to see herself in the moving wallpaper (though she never truly realizes it), but that each of us, as the reader/observer, sees the reflection of our own different interests and experiences in the story. It is a source of wonder to me that we come together here from all over the world to "talk" about this story. That we come from different places and different experiences and different times and yet we are in many ways so much alike. Isn't it amazing!
    Well said and well said and a fabulous quote and idea, thank you you may see that one again!

    Malryn thank you for the link to the Forerunner, that's a very valuable piece of information for us, and a VERY apropos quote! And ALSO for the dramatization, let's all listen and see what we think?

    hahah Babi, you see Gilman as a witch then?? hahaaha

    What a fascinating theory, Malryn, "If no one is with them, they become their own watcher, a kind of uncomfortable voyuerism." So Narrator MIGHT be actually ….she COULD be imagining the entire thing? As well as tearing off the paper to leave the wall blank because those eyes saw her doing something wrong?

    Marvelle, thank you for those links and the term Female Gothic, good heavens WELL DONE on the 9 literary devices, WOW WOW thank you so much, I need to get up a list (would you all believe I originally wanted us to produce an Annotated Text of this? ) but wait till you SEE what people have seen the wallpaper symbolizing, you won't believe it, somewhat akin to what others have brought here, but I'm out of time for today, tomorrow I want to say what I think it symbolizes when we take a look at Pages 6-8.

    HO!! Andrea, in fine form today,
    "She's reflecting herself in the recesses of the paper, reproducing and absorbing her own being right into that ugly paper. The paper is her counterpart, duplicating her very essence." SHE is reflecting HERSELF,"


    Are you saying that she is creating all this out of her own head?

    ginny

    Marvelle
    November 6, 2003 - 05:35 pm
    GINNY, your posts always take my breath away and I have to rest in a chair after reading them! So much to think about. But for now:

    The quote "sticketh like a brother" (full quote and origin given by Maryal) is allusion, another literary device. The friend in Parables 18:24 is Jesus Christ. Makes me wonder WHY it's in the story and in that particular spot. What does it MEAN?

    Wallpaper paste was homemade usually of wheat and water or potato and water. I remember making my own paste this way as a child when doing crafts or making paper puppets for shows along with other neighborhood kids.

    According to the following link, The first ready-to-use wallpater paste was developed in 1888 and "wallpaper pasting machines first appeared around the turn of the century. (Since the story was written in 1896(?) and the wallpaper is already old in the sotry, it would more than likely been homemade paste.)

    Wallpaper History

    The next link talks about how wallpaper, put up with homemade paste, is taken off walls with vinegar and hot water:

    Wallpaper Removal

    Marvelle

    kiwi lady
    November 6, 2003 - 05:49 pm
    When I was a kid we used to make glue by bringing flour and water to the boil until it thickened and almost came clear. Then we cooled it before using. I have a 3 yr old here for the second day and today he has a playmate here for the day. I can tell you I am run ragged and the house is like a tip!

    Carolyn

    YiLi4
    November 6, 2003 - 07:31 pm
    two quick thoughts- then probably out of communication for a bit- work travel: great posts about the Cult of True Womanhood- hmmm now I think this is Gillman's essay written to expose and/or engender thinking about this cult philosophy and might not be so much intended as biographical. Modern writing often presents ideas as literary essays, and we as modern readers see these works for what they are. I wonder if generations of women readers missed this- the essay aspect. (I think now of former students, and the fact that I did not have this awareness- the importance of the Cult movement. Students were involved in the purely psychological- and at the time (1983)did not have sympathy for our narrator) If this discussion were to consider the work a literary essay, thinking of it like Letters from Birmingham Jail, etc., I wonder if we would see more than the 'nameless' narrator as victim. I wonder if that approach would validate my questioning the narrator as a protagonist- perhaps the ruse is she is truly the antagonist! She represents the 'cult'.

    Another thought it her immobility. Power often comes with mobility and in these times men were mobile, physically, socially, economically-- women were beginning to 'move' and this work that clearly immobilizes our narrator now has more significance for me.

    As I drive the many miles to a meeting this weekend I will use the quiet time to reflect on my mobility and i certainly will give thought to the notion that 'she' is antagonist, the embodiment of the lie of womanhood in these times- and the suggestion that she (and therefore the cult and the 'us' that forms these cults and movements) allowed it.

    horselover
    November 6, 2003 - 07:31 pm
    Here is an excellent description of what postpartum depression is like. It parallels what happens to the woman in our story in many ways, and shows that you don't have to be in Victorian times to be ignored by the medical profession or get poor medical advice.


    Postpartum Depression, Anxiety and Psychosis By Veronica Barnes

    I had heard all those terms before, but thankfully had never experienced them. I had friends who had bouts with the "baby blues" for a few days after their babies were born, but I had been immune to even that. So when my body and mind started falling apart two weeks before my son was due, I was sure that I had some terminal disease. The thought that it was related to a shift in hormones and was psychological in nature was completely absurd to me.

    Nothing with my two prior pregnancies and deliveries prepared me for the hell I was about to live through as I awaited the birth of my third child. Until the 37th week of pregnancy, things had gone pretty smoothly for me. I had been down the road twice before, so most of the thrill and wonder of carrying a baby was routine. I was excited, but then again, I knew that having twoPostpartum Depression toddlers and a newborn baby to care for was not going to be easy. I had lined up a babysitter to help me for the baby’s first two weeks of life, and knew my husband would help me, so I can honestly say I wasn’t really nervous or scared.

    It was strange. One day I was fine, the next day I couldn’t sleep, had tremors, lost my appetite, and had a crushing headache. Two days later, when the symptoms had worsened, I still hadn’t slept and began having palpitations and panic attacks (I didn't know that is what it was at the time); I rushed sobbing into my OB/GYN's office for help. I was given a once-over and pronounced perfectly fine, if a bit anxious. His solution: to take a relaxing bath and drink a couple of glasses of wine. I was furious. Everything I had ever read had told me to stay away from drinking during pregnancy, and I felt that I had not been taken seriously. By the fourth day of literally no sleep and increasing panic attacks, I went again to the doctor. I was desperate and thought I was dying. I was consumed with the desire to sleep—it had been days since I had any sleep at all, and I literally begged for help. I was given sleeping pills and tranquilizers. By day 7, my symptoms continued to worsen and I became so distraught that my doctor felt it was best to deliver the baby early.

    I had a C-Section, and was thrilled to see my new baby boy. He was beautiful. I loved him immediately and with a deep passion. I almost felt like myself again. After his birth, I was sedated with painkillers and actually slept through the entire night. I believed then that the worst was behind me, but unfortunately, it was only the beginning. By the second day in the hospital, all of my symptoms came back in a rush and the despair I felt was indescribable. I managed to make it through four nights in the hospital with the help of some very understanding nurses, my loyal husband, and my precious doses of Tylenol #3 with Codeine. So what if they gave me horrendous nightmares -- I was able to sleep and that is all that mattered to me.

    My first day home was uneventful. I laid around in great pain, but looked forward to getting beyond all of my physical problems and getting down to the business of taking care of my new baby boy and his siblings. I took a tranquilizer every six hours and prayed that the tremors, headache, chest pain and dizziness would go away. It didn't. I didn't sleep that first night at all, nor the second or third. My husband got up in the middle of the night to feed the baby each night, and I continued to pray for help and the ability to sleep. All noises upset me, the sight of food sickened me, and as strange as it sounds now, I felt like I was dying.

    By my second week home, things had gotten progressively worse. I loved my baby fiercely and wanted so much to feel well enough to care for him. So when each doctor I saw diagnosed me with Postpartum Anxiety and Depression, I just knew they were all wrong. I was sure I had read somewhere that having that disorder meant you wanted to hurt your baby. They said I was depressed. I told them, through my tears, I was merely frustrated. I wanted to feel like myself again. I consulted a psychiatrist: same diagnosis. What did he know? Every time I was given a prescription, I would get upset. "I am not mentally ill!" I would cry. My medication would be adjusted or changed with hopes that a magical combination would solve my problems. As the days turned into months, I began to think life was not worth living anymore. I didn’t actually think of killing myself, but I thought if it just so happened that I got hit by a bus, well I wouldn’t be so upset about it.

    My son was now 3 months old. My hands still shook so badly that I was afraid to hold the baby for fear of dropping him. My husband still fed him every night, and the babysitter cared for him and my other two children all day. I felt ashamed of myself for not "snapping out of it", guilty that my baby barely knew me, and I became obsessed with the thoughts that I would never be the same again. I had once been a fun-loving, strong, healthy woman and had turned into a crying, weak person who I despised. Yet slowly over the next month I began to notice signs of improvement. I began getting a bit of appetite back, the sound of the television or radio no longer tormented me, and with the help of medication and relaxation tapes, I was getting a solid night of sleep most of the time. And then I would notice that a few days of the week I would wake up without tremors, my headache eased, and I began to feel like venturing outdoors.

    I called my doctor, thanking him because for the first time in months, life was good again. It wasn't great yet. That would take another year before I felt completely like the "old me". And even now that my son is two, I am still on medication. If I don't take it, I find that the headache and tremors come right back. However, I know someday soon I will be able to come off of the medication entirely and feel good without its help. But I no longer feel guilty for needing medication, nor do I feel ashamed to tell others that I am a survivor of Postpartum Depression and Anxiety. I know now that this is more common that I would have ever imagined, and that there is information, chat groups and support on the web for women like myself. If you suspect that you (or someone you know) are suffering from this disorder, do not hesitate to approach your doctor with your needs. There is no reason you need to suffer. There are professionals to help, and other women who are willing to listen. I have gone through this difficult experience and have emerged with a deeper sense of compassion for others who are suffering, a greater bond with my husband and children, and a deeper faith in God. And for that sweet little boy of mine, I would go through it over again a hundred times.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 07:47 pm
    When I was a child the wallpaper in the house where I grew up was changed fairly frequently until my aunt finally bought some very expensive paper when I was 14, which stayed on some of the downstairs walls for thirty odd years.

    I remember the patterns and colors of the dining room, front hall and living room wallpaper to this day. White paper in the dining room with a fairly large Chinese pattern in dark blue. Cherry red with a small gold medallion in the front hall. (I loved that paper) Light blue with a silver medallion in the living room.

    From the time I was about 8 years old I helped take the old wallpaper off the walls. Plain hot water with no vinegar was sponged on the walls, then the paper was taken off with a small hand tool which at the base of the handle was round, and at its bottom was wider, flat and sharp. Woe be to anyone who dared chip the plaster underneath the paper because that would mean a plastering job.

    My aunt and uncle hired a paper hanger to come in and hang the new paper. He made his own paste out of flour and water and something else I don't remember.

    I'll never forget one December Sunday when he was there papering the living room. The news suddenly came over the radio that Pearl Harbor had been attacked. The paper hanger turned pale, dropped the brush he was using to apply the paper, hurried down the step ladder and rushed home. His son was at Pearl Harbor. A terrible day I'll never forget. I was 12 years old.

    Remember the old cottage I told you about with the brittle wallpaper in the room I rented? I persuaded the owner of the house, my friend, Earle Richardson, to let me take that old paper off and pay to have new put on. Earle was very energetic in his early 80's, but he was more than lazy when it came to work. To him I was a youngster at 48, so he said yes, I could do it if I'd do all the work and pay the paper hanger.

    I spread newspapers all over the floor; put a pan of hot water on them, and proceeded to sponge the area of the wall I wanted to work on. That water didn't even make a dent in what I discovered was not one layer of wallpaper, but six. The only way I got it off was to hold the tool in one hand and tap it lightly with a hammer held in the other while I chipped it all off. It was a terrible job, and Earley was terrible, too. A hard of hearing self-proclaimed supervisor, he yelled his comments throughout the job.



    I envision the cottage where Mr. Doctor and his wife are to be near a lake in the Berkshire Hills in Massachusetts. Edith Wharton's "The Mount" is in Lenox there, a wonderful place to visit. If you're ever in that area of Massachusetts, I urge you to go and see it. Try to go when Shakespeare and Company are performing their plays. They are in residence there each summer.

    I would expect the doctor's cottage to be like the one I stayed in when I spent time at Tanglewood years ago. Of course, there are "Summer cottages" (small mansions to me) all up the shore in New England, like in Newport, but I would expect such places to be too much of a stretch for the doctor's purse.
    "Wall-paper: (1.) To the narrator it represents “her ‘repressed other’ or ‘suppressed self’” (Hume 481). (2.) It also comes to stand (in) for whatever it is that produces the queer affect: ‘It is stripped - off the paper - in great patches . . .’ (Crewe 283). (3.) It is 'the desire which haunts her socially conforming self: the desire for an uncanny, forbidden self, unreadable, lawless and mocking'; the paper she writes on is 'dead paper’ . . . forbidden paper . . . She creates it and it creates her.' (King 29, 31)."

    Source: Primary symbols and images in "The Yellow Wallpaper"

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 08:07 pm
    Horselover, I have never heard of a case of post-partum depression which started before the birth of the baby. Are cases of post-partum depression different from each other? The story you relate is not anything like what the woman I met in the hospital who was having shock treatments for post-partum depression in the 60's told me.

    Mal

    horselover
    November 6, 2003 - 08:25 pm
    MAL, I would guess that, while there may be fundamental similarities, every case is probably different because each person's experience is different. You are correct that the term "postpartum" refers to the depression that appears after the birth. But anyone who has experienced symptoms of severe depression or anxiety during pregnancy needs to be watched carefully after the birth for a recurrence.

    The woman who wrote that article also had mistaken notions about postpartum depression and thought it always meant you wanted to hurt your baby. As a result, it took a while before she was able to get medication that helped her.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2003 - 08:34 pm
    I also have never heard of Postpartum Psychosis until tonight.
    "Postpartum depression (PPD) can happen a few days or even months after childbirth. PPD can happen after the birth of any child, not just the first child. A woman can have feelings similar to the baby blues - sadness, despair, anxiety, irritability - but she feels them much more strongly than she would with the baby blues. PPD often keeps a woman from doing the things she needs to do every day. When a woman's ability to function is affected, this is a sure sign that she needs to see her health care provider right away. If a woman does not get treatment for PPD, symptoms can get worse and last for as long as 1 year. While PPD is a serious condition, it can be treated with medication and counseling.

    "Postpartum psychosis is a very serious mental illness that can affect new mothers. This illness can happen quickly, often within the first 3 months after childbirth. Women can lose touch with reality, often having auditory hallucinations (hearing things that aren't actually happening, like a person talking) and delusions (seeing things differently from what they are). Visual hallucinations (seeing things that aren't there) are less common. Other symptoms include insomnia (not being able to sleep), feeling agitated (unsettled) and angry, and strange feelings and behaviors. Women who have postpartum psychosis need treatment right away and almost always need medication. Sometimes women are put into the hospital because they are at risk for hurting themselves or someone else."

    Source:

    www.4woman.gov The National Woman's Health Information Center

    kiwi lady
    November 6, 2003 - 09:09 pm
    My daughters post natal depression did begin about 8 weeks before the baby's birth. She began having panic attacks on the way to work- in the car park (underground one) and severe anxiety. She did not say anything to anyone. Then after the birth she also hid her symptoms but became sicker and sicker at 12 weeks on she knew herself she was in serious trouble and confessed to her husband. They did not want to worry me so went to the clinic without telling me. After diagnosis was when my daughter came to see me and explained everything. I had noticed a change in her from prior to the babies birth but thought it was first time mother anxiety. My daughter already had a predisposition to anxiety and depression prior to becoming pregnant but thought she had overcome it. She knew she may be a candidate for post natal depression but it did take her a few weeks to face the problem. It is a terrible thing to go through. However one little white tablet taken once a day did wonders. I think all fathers to be should be aware of this problem also so that if their wives do not have any insight into their own condition they can recognise the signs.

    Carolyn

    Ginny
    November 7, 2003 - 05:01 am
    I'm up here at the crack o dawn ahahah as you can see (which does NOT count as TODAY) before we get to Pages 6-8, with "it sticketh closer than a brother" nagging at me, nagging nagging? Nagging.

    Maryal has identified the passage as coming from the Bible, from Proverbs, in the Old Testament…. "and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Proverbs 18:24…

    The original reference in our text comes on Page 4:
    The wall-paper, as I said before, is torn off in spots, and it sticketh closer than a brother—they must have had perseverance as well as hatred.
    Judy has pointed out that she would not know how close it stuck unless she was pulling it off, and that may be the second hidden reference the author has made to the possibility that she is pulling it off herself? (And there may be even more that I have missed, do you all see any? You are all much closer readers than I am?)

    But here is were I come unstuck!

    hahaha, IS this just a clever reference, a sort of oh I'm trying to think of something that sticks close…oh AHA! I remember Proverbs….(the words like or as aren't there but the comparison is definitely felt "sticks AS close AS a brother or LIKE a brother," I'd have to say this is a simile, and am probably wrong), but IS this just a phrase she remembers and liked and used OR…when you consider the fact that she DOES just happen to have a brother in the piece, and he DOES just happen to be a doctor and he DOES just happen to concur with the diagnosis, can she be saying something about family deserting her also? And maybe…is there something about religion here as well?

    She's deserted. It reminds me of the Ancient Mariner,
    Alone, alone, all, all alone,
    Alone on a wide wide sea !
    And never a saint took pity on
    My soul in agony.
    and somewhere in that poem but I have just spent ½ hour trying to find it and can't, you have " so lonely 'twas that God himself scarce seemed there to be."

    Ok here's the deal, I am having a "Half Phyll at the Grocery" experience?

    Here, in the midst of a piece about a soul in torment which, so far (I have not looked specifically for references to religion yet, but I will) seems remarkably free of any sort of religious reference (the person is not praying, does not mention any surcease in religion or God? Or does she? at all, just in writing) here, suddenly, at what must be a key point: again a reference to pulling off the wallpaper, suddenly we have the phrase, "sticketh closer than a brother," which is a direct quote from the Bible, the contrast to me is striking, am I the only one? Am I the only onw wondering what other lines are taken and from what source? We have the brother who is not sticking close at all, but who just happens to be a doctor as well, and not only a doctor but a doctor of "high standing," and "he says the same thing." we have Bibical quotes made in a piece remarkably free of faith, (or so it seems to me) but Barb picked up on Fate and God and Will there, it must be there somewhere, and I had came IN to say I think the wallpaper symbolizes HER, thinking of Faith with it peeling and her own disintegration, but the confluence of all these images has stopped me?

    Because she wishes to tear the wallpaper off?? But it sticketh closer than a brother! I have to ask what or who stuck in the Proverbs context and what or who sticks now when her brother does not? I have to ask what this all may MEAN?

    I love this thing.

    Nobody mentioned if they had seen the film on this, has anybody? Can you imagine making a film about this, but I have heard it's quite good? Have any of you seen it?

    I am really curious about how they would go about showing this on film, but I don't think I could bear to watch it, how about you?

    A word about the critical sources?

    I spent some time at the site that Malryn put a link to yesterday and it IS fascinating, and there are more like it out there. If you read on down you will find the text with the odd innocuous word underlined and if you click on that, BEHOLD!!! Up comes enough critical comments on that one word to choke a horse: and most of them differ, they are amazing. And MOST of them are by respected scholars? And I hate to tell you but I have several publications printed out here, one an entire book, of the same thing, and would you believe THEY don’t agree? And they are ALL well reasoned?

    And the reason I bring this up is because there's a special relationship with the reader and what he reads and what HE makes out of it, what he discovers, these little Phyll in the Grocery moments (I hate to keep picking on Phyll, but I hope she and you understand….HEY! I'm using PHYLL as a symbol! Hahaha HEY!! The wallpaper has gotten to me, too, Symbols everywhere!) anyway, it's the little things we figure out for ourselves, regardless of what somebody else may think that make it super, we're lucky here, we have …I haven't counted but there must be 30 brains reading and thinking together here in this room about this piece) and so we need to have it all, we need to do the work ourselves and then it just adds icing on the cake to hear the viewpoints of the different critics, and see what THEY saw in it, you can't get better than that!

    But I want to do the work myself first and see what I personally think and right now I'm losing sleep over sticketh closer than a brother!!

    Now on to Pages 6-8, (and in which there's yet another famous quote, too) some new questions in the heading (what are YOUR questions or puzzlements?) and some thoughts on your own posts!

    Just till I get back, tho, what are your thoughts on this?
  • 1. The Narrator seems to be suddenly getting a lot worse in Pages 6-8, do you see anything which might have caused this?
  • 2 .Is there more than one woman behind the wallpaper?

  • Where does the Narrator first identify the figure as "female," and what seems to be her take on these figures? Are they friendly? Do they provide companionship?

  • 3.
    "There is one marked peculiarity about this paper, a thing nobody seems to notice but myself, and that is that it changes as the light changes."

    "At night in any kind of light, in twilight, candle light, lamplight and worst off by moonlight, it becomes bars! "

  • What has the relationship of light to do with the continuing revelations in the wallpaper?

  • As the wallpaper begins to come more and more alive, what is happening by contrast to the Narrator?

  • What does the revelation of bars mean?
  • 4.
    "I have watched Joan when he did not know I was looking, and come into the room suddenly on the most innocent excuses, and I've caught him several times LOOKING AT THE PAPER! And Jennie too. I caught Jennie with her hand on it once.

    And didn't know I was in the room, and when I asked her in a quite, a very quite voice, with the most restrained manner possible, what she was going with the paper—she turned around as if she had been aught stealing, and looked quite angry—asked me why I should frighten her so!

  • What might be an explanation for John's looking at the wallpaper?

  • Why would Jennie start and look as "if she had been caught stealing?"

  • The Narrator here takes great pains to make a contrast in the very controlled manner in which she addresses her husband and sister in law. How does this contrast with the way she addresses her journal and what does it mean?

  • Why is this passage in the piece, what do you think the author is trying to do with it?

  • 5. John seems to refer to the Narrator in more and more childlike terms, and at the beginning of Page 6 the Narrator seems to know who the child really is, and to show a flash of caring, what do John's increased references mean?

    and I can't help it I have to ask if even something MORE is going on here in the dynamics of the marriage OR is every patient-doctor relationship that of a child to an adult?

    What do you think about Pages 6-8 today?

    ginny
  • Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 08:02 am
    GINNY, Gilman was a New Englander (Connecticut) and that is why I suggested the Berkshire Hills for the possible locale of this summer cottage. It was part of the places she knew. Growing up in New England children heard Biblical phrases that related to their behavior or a situation all the time. Because of that, it is my first impulse to say the paper sticketh like a brother is just common usage of the phrase.

    On the other hand, if you are looking for other meanings of the expression, I can think of one. First of all, one must think about the context of this phrase. It is in a parable about friends. The narrator's brother agrees with her husband that her treatment should be the bleak nothing that it is. Like her husband, John, her brother is no friend of hers. She's angry with both of them for allowing her no freedom except isolation and no choice at all.

    Who, then, is her friend? About whom does she feel any kind of compassion or sympathy? The woman behind the wallpaper she's trying to free. That woman "sticketh like a brother" to her. She's in her mind day and night, just as is the impediment to her alter ego's freedom, the paper which in places "sticketh like a brother" to the wall.

    Taken another way, you could say her overt self is trying to let the repressed self out, while at the same time trying to keep it imprisoned in the way it has been all her life.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 08:24 am
    It has been my experience that if people show weakness, especially physical, other people will take advantage of them. This is not only a fact of life; it is a fact of history.

    Witness the way old people are treated in the United States. Their weakness is age, and it shows.

    Women are taken advantage of because the myth has been for thousands of years that they are weak. They show their presumed weakness just by being women.

    As a woman who has been forced to wear a sign of weakness -- a brace on her leg -- for 68 years among a tremendous majority who don't, if you have hours and days of time I could tell you much, much more (including why people like me sometimes make huge and often unwilling and difficult shows of great strength just to protect and maintain the small amount of ground they have to stand on.)

    More and more the narrator is showing weakness to her doctor husband. More and more he is taking advantage of her by treating her like a child. He is behaving as almost any other "normal", "superior" human being would.

    Their compassion and sympathy, if that's what they have, covers their relishing the fact that it is someone else who is weak and not they. In business or war, sports or even a club (women's clubs included), they say, "Aha, here's my opportunity" and jump in to push the one who is, or appears, weak out of the way. It's a survival of the fittest world.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 08:43 am
    GINNY has asked if there's more than one woman behind the wallpaper. It seems to me that as the narrator's personality becomes more and more fragmented, the more women behind the wallpaper she sees.

    Mal

    Phyll
    November 7, 2003 - 09:34 am
    You crack me up! I hope you realize that everytime I go to the grocery store from now on and look at the meat I will see yellow wallpaper....and creeping women.....and eyeballs....suicidal eyeballs...and creeping....and creeping....and creeeeeeeee.......

    Marvelle
    November 7, 2003 - 10:03 am
    Phyll, I see you as a future vegetarian, 'cause the grocery store won't let you near meat after you 'strip' the meat from their cellophane wrap!

    There are many ways to view the story; also the proverb.

    A man that hath friends must show himself friendly; and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. Proverbs 18:24

    I think Verse 18, with its various two-lined proverbs, in general contrasts the good with the wicked. The wicked would be the first line of 18:24 and the good in the second line? Many friends not wisely chosen can lead you to ruin but a true friend will not leave you when you are in trouble but will stand beside you through it all.

    Cicero: "In doubtful times the genuine friend is known."

    I'm trying to understand the proverb itself before I try to apply it to the narrator's situation, but there's something heartbreaking here (maybe, dunno, possible, I think). More later ....

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 11:26 am
    I have just found this in an essay on the web which contains much more: like the "mirror" stage males and females appear to go through, as spoken of by Freud and Jung. In this stage females discover what makes them physically different from males, and, according to some psychologists, deveop penis envy. The writer of the essay suggests that they find something more important. "How can women miss what they never had?" she asks. What she thinks is more important is the revelation to the female in the mirror stage that males are preferred; that she is thought lesser.

    This writer takes the "sticketh like a brother" literally, and in a way GINNY suggested, as you will see. I'll go further and say that perhaps the male part of the female is being recognized during this stage, and she becomes conflicted about whether to nurture that part or discard it. It's an interesting idea when related to the narrator in The Yellow Wallpaper.

    Here's the quote:
    "The narrator states that the wallpaper has been stripped off 'in great patches all around the head of [her] bed'70. The question is by whom? Symbolically, it seems as though someone has used the paper to express his or her thoughts [the paper is mainly torn off around the head of the bed]. This may suggest that part of the work [women's liberation] has already been done, but also that someone has perished in the battle and failed to write her mind and get out of the house. It remains a secret who has inhabited the room before. The narrator seems to think that it is children, and repeatedly talks about how they have destroyed the wallpaper. Later, however, she says that 'it sticketh closer than a brother' and that 'they must have had perseverance as well as hatred' 71 to get it off. She has obviously found this out by trying to tear it off herself. And no one knows about perseverance and hatred more than she does. It is also notable that she uses 'brother' to express this glued connection. Gilman wants to point out that brothers and sisters are never one, and she also indicates that this unity is not a desired one on her part. Her use of the obsolete verb ending '-eth' further suggests that this is a problem of considerable age."

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 11:34 am
    I've noticed that as the narrator becomes weaker in the eyes of her physician husband, she's actually become stronger. Her repeated use of the word " I " as compared to how she referred to herself before indicates strength to me, anyway. She has begun not to think of herself as a shadow, but as a whole, complete entity.

    It takes great physical strength to pull even old wallpaper of walls, and she succeeds in removing it. Her creeping like a baby suggests that part of her has been reborn; that she's begun a new journey, perhaps without the patriarchal bonds which were on her before.

    What is troublesome to me is that the narrator must regain her sanity before she can walk as the new person she has become. The only hope that she ever will lies in her vision of the women who are creeping outside the house.

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 7, 2003 - 01:41 pm
    The writer of the article Mal quotes above finds it "notable that she uses "brother" to express this glued connection". It appears to me that she was using a quote that expressed something closely and tightly bonded. She didn't choose the quote because of the word 'brother', and I believe meanings are being read into this that were never intended. The writer also comments meaningfully on the use of the obsolete verb ending 'eth'. I suspect that he (she?) is not aware a biblical proverb is being quoted, and therefore finds abstruse meanings in her 'choice' of words. ...Babi

    kiwi lady
    November 7, 2003 - 03:07 pm
    I have to say strongly I have always believed the term penis envy is a load of old tripe!

    Hallie Mae
    November 7, 2003 - 03:15 pm
    4. "I have watched John when he did not know I was looking, and come into the room suddenly on the most innocent excuses, and I've caught him several times LOOKING AT THE PAPER! And Jennie too. I caught Jennie with her hand on it once "She didn't know I was in the room, and when I asked her in a quiet, a very quiet voice, with the most restrained manner possible, what she was doing with the paper—"

    What am I missing? I thought she was confined to the room and if so what is the meaning of "She didn't know I was in the room." And who is it that "come into the room suddenly" her or John?

    Hallie Mae

    Ginny
    November 7, 2003 - 03:52 pm
    You know what, Hallie Mae? I'm glad to hear you say that because I got confused myself and reasoned well there has to be a bathroom (no there doesn't, isn't that the age of chamber pots) and I thought well well, and now here YOU are saying the same thing, I'll go back and see again and I do have some thoughts on the sticketh closer than a brother text Malryn brought here for us to see (thank you Malryn)(the thoughts sort of go like: boy we're smart, we ought to do our own literature on it. ahahahaha) But now I would say that, let's see what else you see, o Sharp Eyed Readers Sometimes, But Not Limited to Grocery Stores. hahaahaha I've thought about this all day and have come no further!

    more on your thoughts in a sec,

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 04:07 pm
    BABI, there are hundreds and hundreds of studies out there about this story with as many different theories about it as there are studies. I've been having a bit of fun looking at some of them. Many are so far out that they bear absolutely no relation to mine. Amazing, isn't it, to see the interpretations and reactions this story has brought?

    CAROLYN, you've never wished you were a man so you could have the same freedoms and advantages? That's what penis envy is. I was raised by an independent woman who always worked, and from the age of seven I never had a mother at home. From an early age, it seemed to me that women who had some kind of job career and earned their own money the way a man did were better off than those who didn't. Being married to a man who had Victorian ideas about women working outside the home, my early conclusions were proven right, as far as I was concerned. If there had been computers then, I could at least have worked out of my house.

    Hallie Mae, it's John who comes in suddenly. I don't know what the narrator meant when she said, "She didn't know I was in the room." My first thought was that she might have been the bathroom, but the best chance is that there wasn't a bathroom in that house. I'm stumped. Unless the narrator was allowed to go downstairs by herself once in a while, maybe to visit her child?

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    November 7, 2003 - 04:31 pm
    Mal - Having read some Freud I found he was a man obsessed! Personally - No I never wished I was a man. I was the first woman builders rep in the big Building corporation I worked for and my first job was in the Public Service where in my Dept for sure I did have equal opportunity. The only company I worked for I found was Male dominated was a private engineering company owned by an ancient British upper class male. Needless to say I did not stay around very long. I cracked up too because they needed 3 men to do the job I had been doing quite happily for two years. The MD came to see me at my new job to see if I was happy. I told him very happy getting almost twice the salary for doing half the work! You should have seen his face!

    Carolyn

    Marvelle
    November 7, 2003 - 04:53 pm
    BaBi, I got a littled confused -- not unusual with me -- with who the "she" in your post refers, so can't be certain if I agree or disagree.

    I've don't read essays about the story because I agree with Ginny that there are many essays written about "The Yellow Wallpaper" by authors who disagree with one another. Therefore, one can't accept one essay over the other as being "expert." I want to think independently and not be initially influenced by a secondary source.

    But then that's pretty much what I do when reading any book or story. I print out reviews or essays, however, if given in a post or heading so I can read them at my leisure following a discussion and see if I agree/disagree and if I find new insights. They build on my knowledge gleaned initially on my own thinking from reading the story. That's when these reviews/essays are invaluable to me and I appreciate seeing them in a discussion.

    Other people prefer to study the reviews/essays about a story and then read the story. We each have our ways of reading and that's good I believe because then we bring different perspectives to a discussion.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2003 - 05:59 pm
    Yes, MARVELLE, we do have different ways of reading.

    If I've read this story once in my life I've read it a hundred times or even more than that. This is the first time, however, that I've taken an in-depth look at it.

    As I said before part of the fun of doing this for me is reading what other people think about The Yellow Wallpaper. I share what I can with all of you, since, as I also said, I don't think that it's fair if I and some others perhaps have access to sites like the one I posted, which GINNY mentioned today I think, and others don't.

    If there are objections to my linking to articles or quoting from them, please tell me, and I'll be more than happy to stop.

    CAROLYN, it is not so much Freud that I see mentioned in regards to the illness the narrator has as Jacques Lacan, a French psychoanalyst who re-evaluated Freud's work and died in 1981.

    The era of this book was filled with interest in psychiatry. Foucault and others whose names I don't remember at this moment said there was in Victorian woman not only penis envy, but "pen envy". They said women were being restrained from reading, and encouraged not to write, so were filled with pen envy!

    Mal

    Phyll
    November 7, 2003 - 07:12 pm
    I seem to be getting the impression that some of you think that "she" is confined to, or imprisoned in, this room but she isn't. On page 7 she says "John is kept in town very often......So I walk a little in the garden or down that lovely lane, sit on the porch under the roses....." but apparently her increasing depression is bringing on increasing tiredness and lethargy so she spends most of her time in the room with the yellow wallpaper, probably by choice.

    There are so many interpretations to this story. That probably explains its lasting appeal. One minute I think of John as a villain and the next I think of him as a loving, caring husband who is doing the best he can within the best medical theories of the time. And then I think of the protagonist as a repressed victim of a sexist society and then I am half disgusted with her as a wimpy sob sister who gets what she deserves.

    kiwi lady
    November 7, 2003 - 07:33 pm
    I think the woman is a victim to a certain extent in that she is a victim to the thinking on mental illness at the time. Believe me - even is she had wished to pull herself together without the meds we have today it would have been extremely difficult. Gradually the illness would have abated but it could be as long as two years after giving birth that she would begin to feel normal. Poor woman. I hope she did not have any more babies!

    Traude S
    November 7, 2003 - 10:39 pm
    By the time I had composed a long post and tried to send it a few minutes ago, AOL had already disconnected me. This has happened before and makes me quite angry with AOL. Will try again tomorrow.

    ALF
    November 8, 2003 - 08:05 am
    Phyll- when I read that John Boy had been detained in town (again) and our protoganist had "walked" in the garden, I wondered then-- did she truly go out and walk in the garden or did she perhaps just think that she had meandered downstairs and strolled through the garden?

    "The faint figure behind seemed to shake the pattern, just as is she wanted to get out."

    Is she indeed locked in the room, with access denied?

    Why hasn't she experienced auditory hallucinations as well? Most psychotics (and I believe she has passed that test) will suffer auditory hallucinations. Why hasn't she heard "them" talking about her, whispering about her?

    Which brings me back to the laudnaum theory. We have no proof that she's being drugged, do we? Yet, we have NO proof she's NOT either. John tells her it's cod liver oil. Have you ever tasted that nasty stuff? That has the most repugnant taste to it- is he camouflaging other medication with the acrid taste of the cod liver oil? Is she becoming addicted, benumbed by the narcotics I think he's feeding her? That would explain her fragmented deterioration.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 08:50 am
    Andy, as you read on, you will find that the narrator has access to the key, implying to me that she was not locked in. I think she was free to go out, accompanied by her husband, Jenny or the nanny.

    Today I feel haunted . . . by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. While looking for something else, I found that her father left their 2 children and her mother, who then became destitute. That was the first thing. My father left his 4 children and my mother, who became destitute.

    The second thing is that Gilman lived in Providence, Rhode Island and went to the Rhode Island School of Design. I visited relatives in Providence when I was a child and lived there after I finished college and for two years of my marriage. I did not go to RISD, but knew many people there because it is so close to Brown University where I spent quite a bit of time in my youth. Charlotte Perkins Gilman and I walked the same streets.

    The third thing is that she had what was called a "nervous breakdown". So did I. She wrote. I write. She published a journal. I publish electronic magazines.

    The real kicker, though, is that she was born July 3, 1860. I was born 32 years later on July 2nd. Now, don't you think those are interesting coincidences?

    P. S. I'm 75, the age Gilman was when she committed suicide. That is not on my agenda!

    Mal

    Phyll
    November 8, 2003 - 09:00 am
    When do reality and fantasy merge? Is she really walking in the lane or just think that she is? I didn't think of it that way. But then you begin to wonder if any of it is real or is it all fantasy? Is there even a room with yellow wallpaper? I love this story. But it is so hard for me to forget myself and put "me" into "her"! As for cod liver oil---ugh---and my mother only wanted to do something good and healthy for us. At least that was what she told us! Hmmmm.....

    Trying to put myself in her time, Kiwi Lady, I know that you are right---that she is a victim, but looking at it over a hundred years later there is that strong little voice inside of me that says, "Oh, stand up on your on two feet, lady, and tell those idiot doctors to get out of your face!" See what I mean? Can't quite get rid of the "me" and become the "her".

    Don't you hate that, Traude? And it always happens when you've finally managed to say exactly what you want in exactly the right words and along comes AOL (or something like it) and destroys it all. I am finding this computer age communication ponderous, too. I wish we could compress time and space and all of us meet somewhere face to face and just bounce our thoughts and ideas back and forth instantaneously. Just imagine!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 09:22 am
    I found the article by the 19th century woman who was addicted to laudanum. You'll find it HERE. It is well worth reading in relation to this book.



    "The ideology of the patriarchal canon has traditionally believed women to be more susceptible to madness as a result of their sexuality. During the Victoria era women were not considered 'sexual' beings. Female sexuality was thought shameful, was feared and highly misunderstood. Historically, women 'suffered from a lack of sexual satisfaction' , according to Dr. Maines . . . . and had no way to find relief. Bed rest and laudanum were prescribed and foul douches, bath regimes and bland diets were recommended. All sources of mental excitement was to be avoided.



    "(Charlotte Perkins) Gilman was a prominent social critic and feminist writer in the United States in her time, penning theses on social issues including Women and Economics (1898), and a feminist utopian novel, Herland (1915). 'The Yellow Wallpaper', although a work of fiction, is based upon her own experience with hysteria. It critiques the role of women in Western society during her time which includes bedrest and other forms of control, wielded to keep women in their social position. Down, girl, down. But, bedrest was the least of their concerns. Other treatments described by historian Carrol Smith-Rosenberg, as quoted by Ehrenreich and English were much more brutal:



    " '...doctors recommended suffocating hysterical women until their fits stopped, beating them across the face and body with wet towels, and embarrassing them in front of family and friends.'



    "Additional medical interventions were just as drastic including binding the body, purging, bloodletting, and in worst cases, hysterectomy and/or clitoridectomy. Western culture justified the removal of various female organs, particularly the uterus, because they were believed to be the root of female 'hysteria'. Dr Isaac Baker Brown 'advocated clitoridectomy to eradicate this evil and performed the operation at his London Surgical Home.' 2 The women of the Victoria period were not suffering from hysteria, but from medical barbarism."

    Source:

    A Look at the Dark Side

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 09:33 am
    PHYLL and TRAUDE, there are two ways you can solve the ISP problems you have about being kicked offline:
    1. Write your posts in Note Pad and copy them. Then paste them here. Many of the things I post here are written in Note Pad because I have to go back online to copy the URL of the site from which I'm quoting.

    2. Get cable. I have never, ever been kicked offline with cable, and have easy access, unless for some reason the cable itself goes out. That usually doesn't last very long.
    ANDREA, I think it's highly possible that the narrator was given laudanum, but, in my opinion, if the dosage was controlled by her husband and Jenny, as her medicines seemed to be, they wouldn't make her behave in the way she does in this story.

    CAROLYN, drugs used for mental illness today aren't all that red hot, if you ask me. I became addicted to Valium. I also watched my son go into seizures that resembled DT's because of an anti-psychotic drug given to him in the hospital. I saw him, too, act like a zombie at home when he had been prescribed another drug which I gave to him. There was no way he could take it by himself.

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 8, 2003 - 09:48 am
    Reading and interpreting through page 8 of the online text, here's what I'm feeling: On the one hand we have the surface plot which says she's physically restricted in her movements; and John watches over her and it's only when he's away that she walks in the garden. But she's an unreliable narrator and the various meanings of the story keep changing each time I read it. PHYLL mentions her walk in the garden and different interpretations; and then Andy comes in and says 'could the walks be her imagination? and she is confined?' and my head starts whirling!

    Ginny, so many questions! I need to print them out and look them over. Will be back . . . .

    Marvelle

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2003 - 10:17 am
    Yes Mal - you are right about a lot of the drugs. There may be a long period of time to find the right drug for each individual and none are ideal but there are some which to make life a bit more bearable for the sufferer. The drugs I was given for post natal depression made me into a zombie but I did function to the extent that I could care for my children but I had no feelings, neither happiness nor unhappiness but unable to feel either emotion at the same time. A peculiar feeling. Perhaps I should describe it as being like a robot.

    Carolyn

    ALF
    November 8, 2003 - 10:31 am
    ahahah you said :

    "The real kicker, though, is that she was born July 3, 1860. I was born 32 years later on July 2nd. In 1892?

    P. S. I'm 75, er- 103the age Gilman was when she committed suicide. That is not on my agenda! Good grief, let us hope not, we need you in our discussion.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 11:13 am
    Oh, darn, ANDREA, I didn't want anyone to know! How could I ever have let that slip out! Well, my consolation is that people say I'm the youngest looking 103 year old woman they know!

    Mal

    ALF
    November 8, 2003 - 01:09 pm
    MAL- I think you look pretty darned good---- considering the fact ---

    Didn't our author do a superb job of describing the essence of LIFE with its many adjustments?

    "You think you have mastered it, but just as you get well underway in following, it turns a back-somersault and there you are. It slaps you in the face, knocks you down and tramples upon you. It is like a bad dream."

    I loved that paragraph.

    Hallie Mae
    November 8, 2003 - 01:16 pm
    Mal, Phyll, Alf, I forget who suggested the idea that she had the freedom of the house in the beginning but as she deteriorated mentally, she was confined to her room, it would answer the question I posed.

    In the story of the young lady who was addicted to laudenum I thought the following section was interesting:

    "What I think so very queer when I was taking laudanum is that though my memory was going for other things, it was as good as ever for music"

    The drug culture thrived with rock music. Jazz and blues musicians were also pretty well known to be into drugs long before rock music hit the scene.

    I was prescribed Valium many years ago when I felt overwhelmed with 4 small children (the oldest was a week away from his 4th birthday when I had his sister, #4). It didn't help at all, just made me tired so I stopped using it. We all react differently to drugs.

    Hallie Mae

    Traude S
    November 8, 2003 - 02:05 pm
    Every time I reread certain passages or any page at all, I discover things I had missed before, incredible as that seems, because I am a careful reader (and sometimes fussy as well). ! Let me now hark back to page 5 in the paperback :

    ..." I meant to be such a help to John, such a real rest and comfort, and here I am, a comparative burden already! / Nobody would believe what an effort it is to do what little I am able, - to dress and entertain, and order things!" entertain ? order things ? what things ??? "/It is fortunate Mary is so good with the baby. Such a dear baby! / And yet I cannot be with him, it makes me so nervous.

    I suppose John never was nervous in his life./ He laughs at me so about this wallpaper!

    At first he meant to repaper the room, but afterwards he said I was letting it get the better of me, and that nothing was worse for a nervous patient than give way to such fancies.

    He said that after the wallpaper was changed it would be the heavy bedstead, and the barred windows, and then that gate at the head of the stairs, and so on. (Emphases mine) Well now !!!

    MAL, in light of your advice to the writers in WREX, how do you feel about the heavy use of exclamation marks by Gilman ?

    You mentioned earlier that Gilman had some difficulty getting the book published. Is it possible that publishers were unwilling to touch it at first because of its subject matter ? After all, Gilman was well known by the 1890s, even somewhat of a celebrity

    After the book was published in 1892 in The New England Magazine , one reader wrote "Such a story ought not to be written. It was enough to drive anyone mad to read it." In 1920 William Dean Howells included it in his Great American Stories as a horror story. When the book was reissued in 1913, Gilman added a personal statement intended for her many appalled readers, doctors among them :

    Using the remnants of intelligence that remained, I cast the noted specialist's advice to the winds and went to work again - work, the normal life of every human being; work, in which is joy and growth and service, without which one is a pauper and a parasite - ultimately recovering some measure of power. ... It was not intended to drive peope crazy, but to save people from being driven crazy, and it worked.
    The narrator of the story was not so lucky.

    to be continued

    Ginny
    November 8, 2003 - 02:38 pm
    hahaha Marvelle, that breathlessness is because we are all here what Gandhi called (and Andrea just identified there today), Shatavadhani, which means "one having the faculty of remembering or attending to one hundred things simultaneously." That’s US! And thank you for the mention of the questions in the heading, they are all original, I myself do not know the answers (but would like to) so what do you think? Penny for your thoughts??

    Tomorrow afternoon and through Monday we will take up Parts 9 and 10. Part 10 has the distinction of being fragmented by the author's own hand, THREE times, there must be a reason. Let's see if we can find it.

    I got up thinking that there's something screwy here (in addition to the poor Narrator), I don't think any of us think she's not sick at this point, do we? She's gone. For some reason the first half of this I kept saying to self that old epitaph from an actual tomstone: I Told You I Was Sick.

    Why or what is causing this sickness, I have no clue but John's not gone and he's a doctor, can he not SEE she's not getting better she's disintegrating? I really like Question 4 above and wonder what you all think on it?

    NOTICE the many times she stresses that John is away on his serious cases? She is glad she is not serious. I am not sure how much more serious you can be, but tell me this: if he's away then what difference does it make where she has her room? Could she not move down to the chintz? Did anybody EXCEPT me get chills over his she can move to the basement if she likes, good GRIEF, John, just the right place for a person in her condition. Like Phyll I waver back and forth about John. I still hear our Hats saying she's loved, and YiLi Lin saying she's manipulating US (she is manipulating HIM, and Jennie, she changes her crying or whatnot and feigns control, tight control, when THEY are in the room.)

    I've read it again and you all are right, she's not confined to the room, yet she does, it takes so much effort (I just saw that, too Traude, good job on the "entertain," but we are not sure who or what she is entertaining…good point). Yet she does stay in her room and now she sees bars on the wallpaper too. I believe the wallpaper symbolizes her, and the "outward pattern is her outward appearance and speech while the inward pattern , the figure, is her as well, and the ….deterioration of the room sort of (not sure here) is matching…..hmmmm….her own deterioration. My thought today is WHY nobody else is noticing this? Or are they? Why are both John and Jennie looking at the wallpaper, surely THEY doesn't see it moving? Just like you didn't see the sample here moving? I liked Malryn's thought that as her own personality becomes more and more fragmented the more women she sees. That's about as far as I am, now let's look at the simply super things you have brought up and how about that #4 and how about 5 for that matter and how about why John and Jennie don’t see the problem and how about why she can't move downstairs since he's gone so much on "serious cases."

    Penny for your thoughts? Pages 9 and 10 for tomorrow.

    Traude S
    November 8, 2003 - 02:38 pm
    It is not unreasonable to wonder about houses and/or rooms, as we have seen reported here. Nor is it unusual for the narrator to speculate on who lived in that room before, who stripped the wallpaper off in great patches all around the head of the bed, and why the bed was immovable (in fact bolted to the floor, as we read later). She thinks the room with the barred windows has "rings and things" in the walls and might have been used for "little children" or by a boys' school. Was all that a figment of her imagination, already so soon after her arrival ?

    If she was a writer- and I think she was, wouldn't she have come prepared with writing materials for a stay of 3 months? Where would she have hidden large patches of torn-off wallpaper when someone headed up the stairs ? How could she have written on any wallpaper with her constant fatigue ?

    It is possible that when she reentered her room and found Jenny looking at the wallpaper she came from the toilet. Surely in a large mansion ('ancestral hall' page 1) there would have been at least one, I believe.

    All your insights, reactions and interpretations are wonderful; new generations of readers will doubtless try to find their own. The book addresses some of the crucial themes of Gilman's own life : marriage, autonomy, financial independence, work, the struggle against imposed restrictions; and it may very well be the literary expression of the author's own private torment.

    Onward to 9, 10 !

    Just saw your post, GINNY, thank you and thanks everybody.

    Ginny
    November 8, 2003 - 03:15 pm
    Scrawler, this is an excellent point that I somehow missed, "Could this be a metaphor that applies to people? Do you know anyone that underneath may be a different person that you can't really see on the surface but is just festering on the inside." Yes! I like that the wallpaper could symbolize ALL people and you just need a certain light to see them as they are, sort of a "through the glass darkly" sort of thing? I like that, thank you!

    Marvelle, your literary devices list is interesting to me (not only for the things you found) but because it really LOOKS as if you could make a dictionary of such things from this piece and you can't with all fiction, that is interesting, thank you. It might be interesting to open up a page of Literary Criticism or…can't think of any word but devices but I know there's another, on the internet, shut your eyes and stab the screen and THEN have to see if you could find it in this story!

    Anybody game? I believe I will try, just for the heck of it, will somebody put here a link to the elements of literary criticism just for the heck of it (and WHAT are they properly called!?!)

    Judy with the wallpaper as mirror! HO!

    Ok on the sticketh closer than a brother, I hate to say I am not quite ready to give up my theory there? I am very excited about the passage Malryn brought here BECAUSE it shows us that the critics don’t always "get it." I was thrilled to see the phrase and then very disappointed in the result. I would say that writer really missed the boat this time, but hey? They all can. Some of them have the most bizarre ideas you ever heard (and some of them have super ones I would never have thought of) but YOU GUYS beat everything I EVER saw! I feel quite satisfied at what you all are uncovering (unpeeling? Hahahaha)

    Scrawler, I LOVE this one, "I'm a bit of a recluse myself, but thanks to you folks on the Internet I've probably spoken to more people since I've retired than I have ever spoken to in my entire life." Well you just keep right on, I'm enjoying every minute and hope you are, too!

    hahaha "I think my chills and goose bumps are having chills and goose bumps of their own now!" Now THAT one is a good one!!

    hahaahah Oh good point on the paper being more of life than she was, and there's something THERE that is dancing around in the wrong light and I can't quite see it?

    Delicious!

    Thank you for the quote by Dr. Velpeau, as well. Jeepers, imagine knife and pain not to be used in connection of speaking of surgery, have you ever SEEN those hideous treatments they used in the Civil War? Horrendous, I don't know how anybody lived.

    Marvelle thank you for the wallpaper history link and the one on removal! I have seen those old papers and I'm not sure, like Maryal, how she would write on them, or like Traude, how she would HIDE them, but maybe she did NOT hide them and THAT'S why they are looking at the wallpaper?

    more…

    fairwinds
    November 8, 2003 - 03:17 pm
    thank you, all, for your thoughts. i am reflecting on all of it. don't there need to be people who just reflect?

    mal and alf -- that was such a funny interchange about the years and the "we need you for our discussion". i laughed out loud.

    Ginny
    November 8, 2003 - 03:43 pm
    HERE it is I have looked everywhere for this quote and it's Scrawler's "." Well, of course she is. If I was left alone in a room like that without being able to write or communicate with anyone I would think that the only thing of interest would be the WALLPAPER." OK but WOULD You be in the same shape she is after….how many weeks now? If a person of good mental health was in the same room, sans drugs, WOULD they be doing this after 2 months? Do you think?

    WHAT? YiLI, don't stay gone too long! I agree totally with you this is NOT autobiographical, at all! Oh good job reflecting, a Phyll in the Grocery Moment, can't wait to hear what you come up with!!

    Horselover, and Malryn and Carolyn, thank you for those descriptions of post partum depression, they are very instructive, I think! Malryn thank you for that story of the paperhanger and Pearl Harbor, it's amazing what we remember, and the SIX layers of wallpaper (that's something Gilman did not think of, think of THAT, layers peeling to reveal more layers!?!)

    Malryn you may be right on the use of the Bibical phrase naturally, or on impulse. I find it odd there are no other Bibical references in the thing, and LOVED your parable about friends!

    By the way there's another famous quote in this thing, did you all find it?

    I do like this one from Malryn (even tho she is 103~) hahahaah " Taken another way, you could say her overt self is trying to let the repressed self out, while at the same time trying to keep it imprisoned in the way it has been all her life." Oh I like that@!

    hahahah Phyll hahahaaha you and the Grocery Curse from now on, and I will NEVER EVER see a yellow box in the Grocery and not think of you and Wallpaper! Hahahahah hahaha on the eyeballs, suicidal eyeballs hahaha remember that awful Halloween parlor game where you passed around the body parts as children here comes a peeled grape: "This is his eyes" intoned in the dark. Mercy. It's a wonder I don't see eyeballs (er….you don't all see them on top of the page, do you? Hahahaah)

    Marvelle I agree there's something else here, potentially heartbreaking, you guys get close and I get a view of it and it's gone. Tantalizing!

    Oh that's good Malryn on the begun to think of herself as a shadow, well done!

    Babi, woudn't the writer be surprised to find the provenance of the –eth quote? Too bad she does not have our Maryal!

    Phyll has put us back on the track (I am afraid to ask if she's been to the store again, could the STORE be showing Phyll things we don't seeeee? EEEE?) hahahaha she's right, Narrator is not confined, that business with John let's go downstairs threw me off!

    Carolyn, I agree with you, poor woman and poor baby, he's somewhere else, for his own protection?

    Oh Nurse Ratchett (Andrea/ ALF) WHOO, DID she walk or DID she imagine it? Whooo. And hoo boy on the autitory hallucinations as well. So your medical diagnosis would be "psychotic?" Super points!!

    Malryn (all 103 years of you hahaahah you'll never live that one down! Hahaaha) Listen tho, I did not know she had committed suicide, thank you for that, do you know why or did she leave anything that said why?

    hoo hah, o lookit Phyll (obviously back from the 7-11) : "But then you begin to wonder if any of it is real or is it all fantasy? Is there even a room with yellow wallpaper?" hooo boy.

    It sounds from Malryn's article A Look at the Dark Side that John, for his time, WAS loving? Shades of Hats? Where IS Hats!!

    Oh and here's Marvelle with levels of the story itself: so we have allusions to levels of wallpaper, levels of Narrator, levels of women etc., and now levels of the story itself, now THAT's fabulous, too!

    Andrea, this IS a great paragraph and somehow sad, but true, sometimes, I hope not all the time, ""You think you have mastered it, but just as you get well underway in following, it turns a back-somersault and there you are. It slaps you in the face, knocks you down and tramples upon you. It is like a bad dream."

    Hallie Mae excellent point on how we all react differently, maybe her reaction is not what they anticipated, I wonder why they have NOT noticed?

    Traude great points, thank you for identifying the gate's location I keep missing it, thank you for Gilman's personal statement too. Poor thing, service in work. Bless her HEART, I believe I would like to hear more about her in her later years.

    I'm not sure on the toilet, but you may be right there! .

    OK! Before the colors fade and we take up Parts 9 and 10 at 3 pm tomorrow

    How about some of those questions above? What are YOUR thoughts? We would like to hear them, ALL of them no matter whether they agree, disagree, or you think that she painted the wallpaper herself (and she may have), let's hear from YOU!!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 8, 2003 - 03:45 pm
    Fairwinds, there is an especial need for those who reflect, especially those who reflect in French! (And those who reflect in French in the grocery are triply needed, let's all try it!) haahahah

    ginny

    Scrawler
    November 8, 2003 - 03:49 pm
    Page 6 of 12:

    "There is one end of the room where it is almost intact, and there, when the crosslights fade and low sun shines directly upon it, I can almost fancy radiation after all, -- the interminable grotesques seem to form around a common centre and rush off in headlong plunges of equal distraction." Any thoughts to the meaning of this paragraph? Is she really talking about the wallpaper or could the paragraph symbolize a deeper meaning?

    "He says no one but myself can help me out of it, that I must use my will and self-control and not let any silly fancies run away with me." Isn't this a contradictory sentence? How can she help herself if John takes away the one thing that she wants to do? Or does he. Could she of her own free will walk out of that room? Is it only the speaker that thinks she is "sick"?

    "There are things in that paper that nobody knows about me, or ever will." Now up to a point I think this is the speaker speaking about her creative mind. But what could she mean by "or never will"? Perhaps it referred to the fact that nobody would ever see her creative side.

    "Behind that outside pattern the dim shapes get clearer every day." Again this still could be her creative side speaking. Artists see things that most of us don't realize are there.

    Page 7 of 12:

    "And it is like a woman stooping down and creeping about behind that pattern. I don't like it a bit. I wonder - I begin to think - I wish John would take me away from here!" Okay so she thinks she sees" a woman stooping behind that pattern" and that may seem to a rational person a little queer, but than she wonders if John would take her away. Isn't that evidence of a rational mind and therefore the speaker is not sick?

    "John was asleep and I hated to awaken him, so I kept still and watched the moonlight on that undulating wall-paper till it felt creepy." The only reason that she feels "creepy is that the moonlight is making the wallpaper into strange shapes." Haven't we all experienced this? I know I have.

    "The faint figure behind seemed to shake the pattern, just as if she wanted to get out. I got up softly and went to feel and see if the paper DID move, and when I came back John was awake." Now this is getting really queer. Okay there is something going on here that doesn't meet the eye. But again we can rationalize that maybe she wanted to convince herself that the strange shapes made by the moonlight "DID [not] move" like her mind was telling her.

    "Better in body perhaps" I began, and stopped short, for he sat up straight and looked at me with such a stern, reproachful look that I could not say another word." Now see John won't even let her finish her sentence. How does he know what she is thinking about. He just assumes what she is going to say. Then he makes it impossible for her to say anything at all by stating: "...I beg of you, for my sake and for our child's sake, as well as for your own, that you will never for one instant let that idea in your mind! There is nothing so dangerous, so fascinating, to a temperament like yours. It is a false and foolish fancy." Why it's enough for a "sane" person to become mad! How can you fight it? Communication between husband and wife is "MOST" important - if only they would "LISTEN" to each other. And then he goes and sticks the dagger in her heart by saying: "Can you not trust me as a physician when I tell you so?" How can anyone argue with that line.

    Page 8 of 12:

    "The color is hideous enough, and unreliable enough, and infuriating enough, but the pattern i torturing." There's no doubt in my mind that being left alone in that room is driving her isnane. If only John had listened and taken her away. I can't help wonder why John couldn't have done this?

    "You think you have mastered it, but just as you get well underway in following, it turns a back-somersault and there you are. It slaps you in the face, throws you down, and tramples upon you. It is like a bad dream." Is the speaker talking about the "wallpaper" or about "life"? If we assume she is talking about "life" isn't this a sign of a rational mind?

    "At night in any kind of light, in twilight, candle light lamplight, and worst of all by moonlight, it becomes bars! The outside pattern I mean, and the woman behind it is as plain as can be." This makes me think of film noir movies were the shadows in the room resemble "bars" on the walls.

    "I didn't realize for a long time what the thing was that showed behind, that dim sub-pattern, but now I am quite sure it is a woman." Is she putting herself in place of this imagined woman? Does she feel that she is the one behind the bars? Remember there are bars on the windows of her room.

    "By daylight she is subdued, quiet. I fancy it is the pattern that keeps her so still. It is puzzling. It keeps me quiet by the hour." Does this mean than that it is only at night that she gets these "queer" thoughts? Well, that doesn't seem far-fetched. Isn't it at night when the "boogey-man" used to come to little children. Should it be any different for adults to have the same feelings.

    "...I've caught him [John] several times LOOKING AT THE PAPER! And Jennie too." Ah ha! So they do see a problem with the wallpaper. Now isn't that just peachy. If others can see the woman in the wallpaper why does the speaker think she is sick?

    Scrawler (Anne of Oregon)

    Ginny
    November 8, 2003 - 03:57 pm
    Anne of Oregon, what IF they don't see anything in the wallpaper? Why are they looking at it? Who has told THEM there's something there? Do you really think the paper is moving and creeping women are behind bars in the paper? So if not why are THEY looking? Is this not fabulous to contemplate?

    See you all tomorrow,

    ginny

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2003 - 04:03 pm
    Maybe the others are looking at the wallpaper because the writer is peeling it off the walls and they don't want to say anything. The husband would think he was encouraging her fancies about the wallpaper.

    Night time is always the worst for people who suffer mental illnesses. Often they will stay up all night and sleep during the day. The night seems oppressive to a sick mind. It is quiet and thoughts appear to become more disordered because of the lack of any outside stimuli such as neighbourhood noises. Lying in the dark can be absolutely terrifying and the mind can do its damage by the self talk that occurs in the silence.

    Carolyn

    ALF
    November 8, 2003 - 04:12 pm
    Maybe John boy and Jennie are "making" it move!!!!

    Traude S
    November 8, 2003 - 04:14 pm
    Yes, when Gilman discovered she had breast cancer, she decided to end her life.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 04:38 pm
    SCRAWLER, some of your questions could be answered could be answered by "Because he thinks she's nuts." Others could be answered by "Because she is nuts."

    She was disturbed to think John and Jenny were interested in the wallpaper because she wanted to be the one to find the pattern and/or whoever is behind it. John was probably just staring off into space when the narrator thought he was looking at it. Jenny was trying to figure out what there was in the wallpaper that made yellow stains all over Nameless and her brother's clothes.

    Substitute "imagination" for John's use of the word "fancy". To doctors of that day, imagination was the worst possible thing a person afflicted with "hysteria" should use. That was the reason for removing anything that had to do with the arts from patients' lives. The arts and people who lean to them are suspect, don't you know. Look at that guy who cut his ear off, for heaven's sake!

    People in a "hysterical" condition are not listened to. We all know they're not in their right minds, don't we? After all, We're not hysterical, and we normal, sane ones know best.

    The narrator has felt as if she's been behind bars all her life, hasn't she? Her flirtation with and succumbing to this illness -- partially because of the treatment her husband and her doctor insist on -- have led her mind, subconsciously anyway, to think it's about time she got out from under in many different ways. Down with the bars! Off with the wallpaper that imprisons us!



    GINNY, now, please be kind and remember that at the age of 103 I'm not as quick as I used to be, either at running the marathon or figuring things out. Make some allowances, please.

    I do remember reading that Charlotte Perkins Gilman had contracted breast cancer and killed herself with an overdose of chloroform before the cancer could.

    Maybe at the age of 75, she figured she had lived her life anyway. If I'd been around Ms Gilman at my venerable age of 103, I'd have said, "You're just a youngster, honey, put the chloroform away." Though after Dr. Weir Mitchell's behavior, I'd have been afraid of those cancer doctors, too. If they'd yank out a "womb" because you came down with a case of PMS, what would they do if you found a lump in your breast that might or might not be malignant?

    My Massachusetts sister had a young neighbor who was suspected of having cancer. Doctors removed both breasts and did a complete hysterectomy before they discovered (and acknowledged) that she did not have cancer after all. This was 30 years ago. The barbaric mutilation of females mentioned in "The Dark Side" article apparently had continued up until that point. I hope it's not happening now. I learned long ago always to be wary of knife-happy M.D.'s. "It's my body, by God, and you'll do to it only what I tell you to do!"

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 8, 2003 - 04:49 pm
    Different perceptions, indeed. My impression was that the woman was afraid that the wallpaper was beginning to disturb the child too. And that the child was trying to figure out why the wallpaper was making her mother behave so strangely.

    As depression is a major point in this discussion, I thought the following excerpt would be appropriate. It is from a prayer by Gregory of Nazianzus (dont' ask).

    "The breath of life, Oh Lord, seems spent. My body is tense, my mind filled with anxiety, yet I have no zest, no energy. I am helpless to allay my fears; I am incapable of relaxing my limbs. Dark thoughts constantly invade my head, and I have no power to resist them."

    It really is quite pointless to tell someone who is depressed that they should 'not give in to it', or to 'snap out of it', or other such useless tributes to ignorance. ...Babi

    ALF
    November 8, 2003 - 05:10 pm
    hmm, maybe I should ponder the fact that John and Jenny were trying to drive her nuts. That sure changes perspectives doesn't it?

    Deems
    November 8, 2003 - 05:28 pm
    Gilman committed suicide with chloroform in 1935. She was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1932. Her second husband with whom she was happy, died, I think in 1934. Anyhoo, he died before she did.

    I think Jennie examines the wallpaper because she does the laundry (remember she does everything around the house) and she has been surprised at all the yellow smudges on the clothing.

    I think in John's case, it is simply the paranoia of the narrator that makes her think that he is examining it, or trying to take it away from her. After all, at this point she is very attached to the wallpaper; it is her mystery/puzzle, and she is determined to have it to herself.

    As others have already said, John seems to me to be a clueless and very typical male of the period. Whenever a woman did anything or felt anyway other than calm and quiet and loving, the "angel of the house," her troubles were generally attributed to "female troubles" of some sort or another.

    I am so glad that I didn't live when Gilman did. I too would have had a major breakdown.

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2003 - 05:40 pm
    According to medical information from our local mental health clinic Van Gogh had bi polar affective disorder. He is one of many very creative human beings who had this disorder. (Reference to the painter who cut off his ear)

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 05:57 pm
    Labels, labels, labels. I always thought Van Gogh was a little too cuckoo about crows.

    What about Edvard Munch? Or Andrew Wyeth, for that matter? His paintings always seemed depressed to me until he met Helga. Even then . . . .

    What about Da Vinci and Michelangelo, never mind Jackson Pollock? Were Chagall, Kandinsky and Ben Shahn really sane?

    Let's face it, all artists and musicians and writers have a screw or two loose. Put any part of that with a woman's hysterical nature, and you've got trouble with a Capital T. That rhymes with P, and you know what that means. There's trouble right here in River City and the Wilds of Summer Cottages. Rise up and do something about it before it's too late!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 06:05 pm
    I forgot Basquiat. Now, you know he had to be crazy painting on walls of buildings like that.

    Mal

    Traude S
    November 8, 2003 - 09:51 pm
    MAL, the phrase ".. a woman's hysterical nature ..." disturbs me a little. You are not generalizing here, are you ? Did you mean 'a woman's alleged or supposed hysterical nature' ?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2003 - 10:54 pm
    You know me and the way I write too well to think I'd write "a woman's hysterical nature" without being ironic or satirical, TRAUDE. The post is a dig at attitudes of people like Dr. Weir Mitchell and Dr. John Physician in Gilman's story, and others who think talents for the arts are necessarily accompanied by or foster mental instabiliity and mental illness.

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 04:46 am
    I've been thinking and thinking about that yellow wallpaper and what it means. I still think it has multi-meanings as a story and the wallpaper is female restrictions under patriarchal authority.

    Two words used in describing the wallpaper are (in quotes in the story) "debased Romanesque." This isn't the same as Romanesque but is a term used for work that is a rather savage, brutal copying of earlier Roman art and architecture. It's strongly stylized with little of naturalism (distorts natural forms) or humanistic warmth and characterized by raw massiveness of scale. So okay what does that mean?

    IMO it represents the out-of-nature distorting power of patriarchy on both male and female. The female -- the natural, humanistic -- is overtaken by the patriarchy and the male too is overtaken by their own authority and distorted.

    It means in other words that the wallpaper represents patriarchal authority. Then we have this line in the story:

    'The wall-paper, as I said before, is torn off in spots, and it sticketh closer than a brother -- they must have had perseverance as well as hatred.'

    The heartbreak is that the 'sticketh closer than a brother' is the heartbreak that both husband and brother (and other males) have joined together in one accord against her; that she feels doubly bereft and alone. Enough to drive any woman a little loopy; to have been emotionally abandoned and disregarded. Disregarded because up to that point what she felt or wanted or needed wasn't valued by husband or brother.

    There's also this part of the quoted line "they must have had perseverance as well as hatred." They could be children but also, considering this story as women's history, they symbolically can be women throughout history who've begun, slowly but surely, to peel away the patriarchal bonds. The narrator is merely continuing that attempt and wants to finish the job.

    Now this leads me to attempt a partial answer to:

    Question 4: What might be an explanation for John's looking at the wallpaper? Answer: to see, symbolically of course, if the status quo of patriarchy still stands. (The narrator is stripping off the wallpaper, ie patriarchal bonds.) And I don't think Husband John would think in terms of patriarchy but more in terms of 'all's right with the world.' Non-symbolic reason is that John would want to see what fascinates the narrator about the wall-paper but IMO the story is an allegory and was written as such.

    Question 4: Why would Jennie start and look as 'if she had been caught stealing?' Answer: Again symbolically, Jennie is a traditional woman of the late 1800's and a good, traditional woman shouldn't concern herself with the affairs of men or with the rule of men; she would accept and submit. To be actively curious and to explore the patriarchal realm would be unacceptable under the gendered roles. So even Jennie is affected by the narrator's gradual rebellion. On the other hand, or other meaning by going with the surface plot, Jennie would be embarassed to be discovered snooping around the narrator's quarters (yet embarassment isn't likely under the circumstances).

    Question 4: Why is this passage in the piece, what do you think the author is trying to do with it? In the original magazine format the episode begins 'On a pattern like this, by daylight, there is a lack of sequence, a defiance of law, that is a constant irritant to a normal mind;' and ends 'Did not that sound innocent? But I know she was studying that pattern, and I am determined that nobody shall find it out but myself!'

    I think my other answers covers how I feel about what the author is trying to do: to mention the history of female rebellion (perseverence) and the male's uneasiness (John) and the female's potential enlightenment (Jennie). The author also wants to suggest that this change is already underway and spearheaded by women already rebelling, unlike the not-yet-enlightened Jennies.

    Marvelle

    anneofavonlea
    November 9, 2003 - 05:33 am
    with wallpaper, and I dont think the story is allegorical, just plain old horror for me.

    John seems to me to be simply "going along" as men will with ideas women get, that they find inexplicable.Jenni worries me though, but then we dont really here what happens in the others heads, just the narrator.Is she {jenni} really acting as the narrator says, or is the narators paranoia, leading her to see more than is there.

    I noticed whilst I was away with my friend who has the depressive illness this week, that I have tended to placate her, but actually looked at her differently this visit, and as a consequence treated her differently since reading this article.She commented on that, and was pleased with the change, mostly because I acknowledged something I was trying previously to overlook, I think.

    So much in 12 pages.

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 05:42 am
    Twisting, intertwining, obliterating patterns are an important motif in the story and I see the wallpaper, the journal, the restrictions/authority, the narrator as being tangled together into a pattern. A similar concept can be found in a real life document:

    The Archimedes Palimpsest

    Palimpsestos is Greek for rescraped or overwritten parchment. Medieval monks frequently washed and scraped off old text from parchment (thin animal hide) to overwrite church prayers. For much of history writing surfaces were scarce and a parchment would be used more than once. The new marks would be horizontal and the older, original marks are vertical. But just as a chalkboard sometimes allows us to see partially erased marks so the palimpsest reflects its history. Modern technology of infrared and ultraviolet lights has made the discovery and reading of palimpsest much more common than ever before.

    Archimedes (287 - 212 BCE) was a Greek famous for 'Eureka!' and, myth has it, running naked through the streets to shout his discovery. He was a famous engineer and mathematican. The Archimedes Palimpsest was a tenth century manuscript (overwriting another text) discovered in 1899 but, unable to read must of the subtext, scientists put it aside. It disappeared in 1916 and was only recently re-discovered in 1999. Modern technology has found that under the medieval prayers is the sole extant copy of Archimede's treatsie, the Method which would have advanced math and science ahead by centuries.

    A palimpsest may be anything having multiple layers or aspects apparent beneath its surface. When I think what a palimsest is, and when I see an image like the Archimedes', that's what I think the yellow wallpaper and story "The Yellow Wallpaper" are. But we don't have the modern literary equivalent of an infrared light to uncover fully the meanings.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 08:09 am
    Charlotte Perkins Gilman herself has told us "Why I wrote The Yellow Wallpaper". She was ordered by Silas Weir Mitchell, M.D. to "rest" so she could recover from symptoms of the mental illness she was suffering and the illness itself. That rest cure included removing permanently from her life everything she loved and needed to do. She obediently did what this doctor said for three months and "came so near the borderline of utter mental ruin that I could see over."

    She wrote "The Yellow Wallpaper" for this doctor to show him what had happened to her when she obeyed his orders and stopped all the work that was her major raison d'etre. Years later Dr. Weir Mitchell had "altered his treatment of neurasthenia since reading 'The Yellow Wallpaper.' " Her crusade against inhumane treatment had succeeded. Gilman says at the end of this little essay that "it (the story) was not intended to drive people crazy, but to save people from being driven crazy, and it worked."

    Well, in order to understand what this author was doing by writing this story, we have been trying to rip off all the layers of wallpaper off this piece, the intention of which has been stated so clearly by its creator. It's a fun thing to do, and I've enjoyed it . . . up to a point.

    Somehow in this process we have lost the humanity and humanness of the main character, the narrator. We have forgotten to take off our shoes and put on hers. We have forgotten to get on our knees and creep around that room with our shoulder brushing the wall so that not only the very top layer of the paper is rubbing off, the yellow dye in it is staining our clothes.

    For heaven's sake, how did this poor woman feel? Can you put yourself in her body and mind for a few minutes and imagine what she was going through in her fall into psychosis and ultimate insanity? Can you imagine what it feels like to lose your mind?

    That's what Gilman is telling Dr. Weir Mitchell and us, the readers, here. "This is what it feels like, and it feels this way because you, a doctor, took the living, breathing essence out of my life."

    She is not saying anything about patriarchy per se. She is strongly berating one man of medical science for his inhumane methods, which led not to restoration of health and sanity, but to the kind of madness which often can entrap a person for life.

    I think it is important here to realize that this method was not used just for women; it was used for men, too.

    That sort of puts a different light on the sort of analysis we've been doing, I think. Don't you? Doesn't Gilman's statement of purpose in "Why I wrote the Yellow Wallpaper" make you wonder about treatment of mentally ill people today? Doesn't it make you want to find out about and possibly do something to stop any current treatments that are as destructive as what Gilman received at the hands of her doctor? That was her purpose in writing this story then, and it is the purpose of the story now.

    No offense intended here, but if I'd known I was uncovering a palimpset when I yanked, scraped and chipped off the wallpaper in the old cottage's room, I'd have thought twice about what I was doing. (That's a joke, in case anyone doesn't realize the fact.)

    Mal

    CherylNY
    November 9, 2003 - 09:34 am
    I wonder why the wallpaper is yellow, and not some other color. What's the significance of yellow?

    Gilman writes of how we were mistreated in "the good old days." and I think we are just as much ignored by our husbands today. They humor us, they go along with our "silly whims" just as much now, yet to some extent, we're all still prisoners in that room today. As the wallpaper comes down, we find a woman trapped by her own emotions in a man's world, unable to successfully make her husband and the doctors understand the feelings we women have. Men still don't understand us, not truly. And, I don't know if they ever will.

    Cheryl

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 10:16 am
    The Yellow Peril?

    With your permission I'd like to talk here about how I almost lost it, while showing, I hope, some similarities between what happened to Charlotte Perkins Gilman and the narrator of "The Yellow Wallpaper".

    My former husband is a scientist, a true man of science in thinking and the research and development of his theories. He is brilliant in his field, well-respected by his peers and in the scientific community with numerous patents in his name and papers to his credit which have enhanced and furthered scientific study. He recently retired as chief executive officer from a business he created and founded by himself. This business makes medical instruments used in various areas of medical treatment, most notably in hydrosurgery. He and the scientists who worked for him also created and developed a synthetic skin that is used in the treatment of severely burned people. His credentials as a scientist are flawless, and his motives as a humanitarian are honest and sincere.

    I am a right-brained person, very artistic and imaginative. It was harder for me to develop left-brain thinking than right-brained thinking, which seemed to come naturally to me. The reverse was true of my former husband, though he has made every effort since he was a youth (and I knew him then) to develop skills as a musician. He is, therefore, a very fine pianist, only one example of how he did this.

    The mistake he made, as I see it, was not to recognize that my way of thinking and approaching things was and is as valid as his. Because of this, his approach to music and the arts seemed more feasible to him than mine did, and he tried to change my approach in ways that made me feel somehow inferior and very self-conscious about the way I did things. He did not do this because he is male; he did this because he is a scientist and his left-brained thinking was directly opposite to mine.

    To avoid what felt like strenuous criticism, one by one I dropped the things I loved which kept me going. I stopped playing the piano, and I was a very good and talented pianist who had studied and played classical music in concert for years and years. I stopped drawing and painting pictures because I couldn't seem to live up to his standards. When I did this (of my own volition) I stopped doing two of the things which throughout my life had compensated for lacks created by certain paralytic effects of polio, and including, I suppose, a sense of inferiority physically that almost all handicapped people have.

    Though I didn't realize it at the time, little by little my mind began to go. I never went as far as the woman narrator of "The Yellow Wallpaper", but I became fixated on things -- on people whom I mistakenly blamed for my condition, on things in my large house like the wallpaper I had not chosen which was in the large kitchen and that which was in the dining room, both there when we moved into that brand new house. I had a physical reaction to the colors in them and their patterns, which seemed ugly and invasive and at times almost threatening. The long driveway down the hill, which was a challenge to me when I walked it in good weather became a true and almost live enemy from the first snowfall until Spring.

    I wrote endless pages of manuscript about the horrors of my kitchen and dining room and the physical threat of a driveway covered with rutted ice which seemed to attack me by causing me to fall down the minute I set foot on it.

    The house itself, which my husband had chosen for good, sound, practical reasons like the thought of its appeal to a future buyer and its situation in an excellent school system for our children was not suited for a person with physical limitations like mine. I was alone and isolated much of the time with plenty of time on my hands to nurture the things that were, I see now, the seeds of mental illness.

    It's hard to explain the slow, insidious process of losing touch with what is real and dwelling on what is not -- much harder than what is described as what happened to the woman in the room with the yellow wallpaper. The way back is slow and a terrible fight. It was much more comfortable for me to be what I had become in the long, slow process of being mentally ill than it was to try not to be. I won't even try to tell you about the agonies I went through both in becoming what I had and regaining my mental health. Charlotte Perkins Gilman's account of slipping into madness is very, very accurate, so much so that I am taken back enough that it is not hard to wear the shoes of the narrator.

    Mal

    Phyll
    November 9, 2003 - 10:28 am
    Mais, bien sûr, Ginny, et Fairwinds, je réfléchirai au papier peint jaune (et les amis d'internet) everytime je vais au magasin d'épicerie.

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 10:53 am
    Literary Terms

    I used the Archimedes Palimpsest as a metaphor and heard of it at a PBS NOVA program, aired in September. For those interested in palimpsests and/or detectives here's a site written by Roger Easton Jr, a member of the imaging team on the AP.

    Easton on the Archimedes Palimpsest

    The site has some fine sublinks. The Palimpsest is being restored at the Walters Art Museum in Baltimore, Maryland and was briefly on display. I don't know if a page or so is available now for viewing.

    Marvelle

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 11:05 am
    Cheryl!! Welcome welcome!!
    I was just passing thru on my way to finishing up lunch before we take up Pages 9 and 10 (in the online text above ) today at 3 when I saw some new posts and THERE you are!! Welcome! And what a question? I love it. Why yellow, particularly? hahaah Thank you!

    Marvelle, I absolutely love palimpsests aren't you clever, in some ways people are like palimpsests aren't they? One way in one light another in another, maybe depending on who is looking or illuminating that particular characteristic. At ANY rate I have a super one I'll bring back at 3 and, uh oh there's Phyll obviously has been to Wal Mart, she's speaking French now, zut alors where is my dictionary!

    Seriously more on the points you all have raised, back at 3 with Pages 9 and 10 and WELCOME CHERYL!!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 11:34 am
    Malryn, that's a good point about the Narrator and what she's going thru, I thought earlier, perhaps, when I posted her own journal of her own madness that we might have been moved, I'm not sure anybody is missing out on her agony but I do want to say, a couple of you mentioned today and yesterday the yellow on her clothes and today the creeping? Up until today, tho of course we have READ the entire thing, we had not come to the creeping, in Pages 6-8, or the clothes? But we DID have the staring at the wallpaper? And so I asked that question for a reason? In esence I really like the way the author is....telling us this story, I won't say she's "manipulating" us tho when YiLiLin comes back she may reiterate it with her new reflections, but she makes you guess, as you read, you are contstantly presented with ???!!!??? things and that adds to the horror that Anneo and all of us are seeing, and I also think that it makes us MORE one in empathy with the Narrator, and causes us to identify or to understand what she is doing MORE, and I was anxious that that technique, because that IS what it is, be recognized, as well. I bet there's a term for that type of narration but I don't know what it is, I bet Maryal does.

    Stephen King is a master at setting up what APPEARS to be a normal situation and then little by little throwing in ??!!?? moments and BY them creating an atmosphere, and so did Gilman.

    I need to do lunch now but back at 3 with some comments on the rest of your super remarks and another by maryal, many thanks to ALL of you for all your remarks, they're super.

    ginny

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 11:51 am
    The literary terms link in post 329 is not complete although fairly extensive, but it's one of the easiest links to navigate. Click on one of the letters in the Alpha heading and it takes you immediately to that section (such as, clicking on I in the heading to search for Irony).

    From Wikipedia Encyclopedia: "Literary techique, also called literary device. Novels and short stories do not simply come from nowhere. Usually the author employs some general literary techniques as a framework for artistic work."

    I'd add that nonfiction works also use literary technique. The number and type of techniques, how effective, and how often employed in either fiction or nonfiction depends on the author.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 11:53 am
    About John's and Jennie's staring at the wallpaper:

    The narrator is jealous and possessive. She doesn't want anyone else to look at the wallpaper because it belongs to her. (It also is she, in my opinion, and she darned well doesn't want anyone else to find out what's really behind it/her before she does because it would ruin her search and jeopardize the goal.)

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 11:56 am
    Granted that literary techniques and devices are used in nearly everything that's written, which is more important in The Yellow Wallpaper -- the technique or the message?

    Mal

    anneofavonlea
    November 9, 2003 - 12:48 pm
    dont ask me that question, I am so biased I'll go with the message every time.

    I never consider technique when I write, {not that I am a writer, she hastens to add), and have to absolutely force myself to look up links etc, to be fair in my appraisal.

    The yellow seems to me to be simply a choice, which has connotations for the writer, if this were my story, the color would be icky pink.

    The idea that there is a real truth behind this story, horrifies me even more.I am not really enjoying this experience.

    Anneo

    Lou2
    November 9, 2003 - 01:49 pm
    The idea that there is a real truth behind this story, horrifies me even more.I am not really enjoying this experience. Anneo


    Anneo, thanks so much for being frank about this... I'm not either. I appreciate the value of the story... and the awareness it provides... but this is not pleasure for me. Gilman was a truely gifted writer to provoke this knot in my stomack and haunting of my dreams...

    Lou

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 02:02 pm
    OH I'm so sorry, Anneo and Lou that you're not having a good time, I have so enjoyed this, and while it's true the author did suffer something quite similar it's also true this is a figment of her imagination, she deliberately wrote her own story as a cautionary tale in autobiographical form, this is NOT it, and wrote this one and later said it was to teach a lesson but some ...again...scholars doubt that, for whatever reasons, she did not have a wallpaper fixation herself and just simply wrote a ripping good tale and I think the end alone justifies reading it, but we're not there yet.

    I also want to say before we begin Pages 9 and 10 today that I, in fact, have enjoyed all of your responses SOO much, I hate to say I love this discussion (sorry!) so much that we have another wonderful surprise planned for you in January, I hope, very much like this in that it's short but there is NO unpleasantness, or horror, or even a whiff of fear, or history of author problem, it's just a...sort of...lady or the tiger sort of thing, and based on the tremendous response here, we have actually set some records for the site in this discussion, I think you all will have a FIT over it, so please tune in, I will picture you around the fire eagerly awaiting the opening bell.

    I appreciate your sensitivity about the subject matter and the life of the author, I guess it's a tribute to her own skill, as Lou said, in writing fiction that she is able to bring that off? Just keep saying to yourself Stephen King Stephen King Stephen King.

    Malryn in answer to your query about which is more important, the message or the...form? I would say it's like that old song Love and Marriage, at least to me, remember that one?

    Love and Marriage, Love and Marriage,

    Go together like a horse and carriage,
    This I tell you, Brother,

    You can't have one without the other

    Of course in 2003 you can have either without the other, but to me, and I'm only expressing my own opinion, to which I am also entitled, both are equally important.

    I AM anxious that no person be denied his own opinion about any aspect of this piece, and of course, we, as the other members of this group also want to hear every opinion with respect so when it's our turn we'll get the same in return.

    Now am running a bit late because the bread did not finish on time so will now try to get up some thoughts on Pages 9 and 10 in the online reading for today and THEN the piece de resistance, your posts.

    ginny

    Traude S
    November 9, 2003 - 02:44 pm
    MAL, my # 301 shows that I share your interpretation of the author's explanation Why I wrote "The Yellow Wallpaper".

    Re your #319 : I am a very careful reader and fully understand that your reference in the quoted phrase was ironic. But by italizing the phrase, or by adding "alleged" or "supposed" or some such, its ironic emphasis would have been even clearer, IMHO.

    Re your #335 : I am in the habit of reading a book primarily for its content, its message and its meaning, as I perceive it. Then, after mulling it over, I come to my own subjective interpretation. To consider technical aspects and literary devices- interesting and enriching though they can be- is a secondary concern for me. Different readers have different approaches, and that is one reason why our discussions are so far-reaching and appreciated.

    ANNEO and LOU2, exactly: The book makes for painful reading. It shocked readers when it first appeared and is no less shocking today, because mental illness is still a scourge for mankind. We feel uneasy, even uncomfortable, to hear/read of public figures who underwent shock treatments: for example Kitty Dukakis, wife of the former Governor of Massachusetts. That is a natural reaction, I believe. Even so it is helpful to be aware of this affliction and its many manifestations.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 9, 2003 - 02:50 pm
    Today we seldom pay attention to the meaning of things - like the symbolic meaning of flowers and as this story reminds us of color. Written in a time when there were symbols for so many things like barber poles and wooden Indians in front of tobacco stores or hanging balls in front of pawn shops knowing the meaning of a color would be like a second skin - yellow is not only a bright and sunny color but a dark yellow means treachery as in Yellow Journalism. A yellow flag says the place is quarantined - we had a square of yellow pinned to our front door when I had scarlet fever to keep others away. Also there was a sign written with large yellow letters that said quarantined - A yellow cross says there is plague and during the turn of the nineteenth century there was a huge spread of the plague that hit the US. Yellow used in church is about revealed truth and divinity also, the Robe of Glory used for feasts of Confessors is yellow.

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 02:55 pm
    Ok let's start out with some items about the plot in Pages 9 and 10? Just a few pages, but boy what a lot of stuff, let's look first at items in the plot itself, I have a hard time with this section so am looking forward to what you all might think about it, something is happening, that's for sure, but I'm not sure WHAT, I'm interested to hear what you think this means, let's start with these things:

  • 1. "Then she said that the paper stained everything it touched, that she had found yellow smooches on all my clothes and John's and she wished we would be more careful!

    " a long, straight, even SMOOCH"

  • What is a "smooch?" Isn't a "smooch" a kiss?

    Why would John have yellow stains on HIS clothes?

    What is going on here?

  • 2. "Life is very much more exciting now that it used to be. You see I have something more to expect, to look forward to, to watch."

  • What would you say is happening here? What has brought about this change in the Narrator, and what is it she looks forward to? What does this mean for her life with her real family?

  • 3. "and [John} said I seemed to be flourishing in spite of my wall-paper."

    Apparently she has told John about the wallpaper, should that not have caused alarm in him? Here is where we might enter the Ethical Fiction area, where circumstances are brought up that seem to require a response but there is none, nor is any given by the author, what would be a normal response by a husband to a wife who thinks the wallpaper is oppressive?

  • What does it mean that she keeps secret from him the fact that she thinks it's BECAUSE of the wallpaper she has gotten better?

  • 4. "I don't want to leave now until I have found it out."

  • This is in direct contrast to Page 7's "I wish John would take me away from here!" with which Gilman ends one of her sections. What has happened between Page 7 and Page 9 which could have caused this change?

  • What is the it she needs to find out?

  • 5. "I find it hovering in the dining-room, skulking in the parlor, hiding in the hall, lying in wait for me on the stairs."

  • The wallpaper has become animate with the use of all of these examples of personification, and the wallpaper takes on the guise of another character, more alive to Narrator than her own family. Is it clear what relastionshiop this new character will have to the author? Who or what is the real antagonist in this piece?

  • 6. Page 10 has three divisions put there by the author in the form of ***, each one ends with a startling sentence:

  • Division One: "Round and round and round-round and round and round—it makes me dizzy"
  • Division Two: "If those heads were covered or taken off it would not be half so bad"
  • Division Three: "I have watched her sometimes away off in the open country, creeping as fast as cloud shadow in the high wind."


  • What is "creeping?" What does the author mean by "creeping?"
  • Is Narrator happy or sad that the woman has gotten out?

    What does the revelation by Narrator that SHE is also creeping to do her veracity as narrator?

    What can it mean that the woman is outside and hiding her creeping but may be seen from any window?

  • What seems to be the Narrator's feeling toward the woman/ or women? Does the Narrator seem to identify with her/their desire to get OUT?

  • 7. Why is there a sudden smell and what might it be? Sulfur?

    What is the smell of sulfur usually connected with?

  • 8. "I have found out another funny thing, but I shan't tell it this time! It does not do to trust people too much."

  • What "people" is the Narrator referring to?

  • What change does this indicate in the Narrator?

    I guess those are some of the questions I might have for this section but I bet you have better ones, let me go get yours from yesterday and get them up or any you have also today and let's see what you think!?!

    What is CREEPING and what is a SMOOCH what strange words she uses here, WHAT did you make out of this passage?

    more....
  • horselover
    November 9, 2003 - 03:01 pm
    I would just like to say that this must be an extraordinary story indeed. Whenever I sign back onto another discussion after a day or two, there are usually only a couple of pages of posts to catch up with. But in this discussion, every two pages generates pages and pages of great theories and ideas to read every time I return to it. There is such genuine interest in the meaning of the story, in the characters, and in the emotions of the narrator.

    Kiwi Lady, I agree with you that penis envy is an old, outmoded theory. Women did not want to be men; they wanted men to stop running their lives and depriving them of rights both legally and culturally. I think that men actually envy a woman's ability to give birth to new life.

    Phyll, I think your post #287 was a pretty good summary of many of the different interpretations of this story.

    Be back after lunch to join you in discessing pages 9 and ten.

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 03:22 pm
    Oh two other things I meant to say, one is on the horrifying "I thought seriously of burning the house--to reach the smell." WOW! Now THAT'S scary, the baby is in the house, John is in the house, Jennie is in the house and Narrator is in the house, that is scary.

    And the other thing was in Page 7 (and I agree Horselover, I have LOVED the insights here) and it was John who said, "Bless her little heart! She shall be as sick as she pleases! But now let's improve the shining hours by going to sleep and talk about it in the morning!"

    How does it go?

    "How doth the little busy bee
    Improve its shining hours?

    In Edit: HO!! Not Lewis Carroll, look at this!
    How Doth

    The Little Busy Bee

    Isaac Watts

    (1674-1748) BUSY BEE (C.M.)





    How doth the lit-tle bus-y bee

    Im-prove each shin-ing hour,

    And gath-er hon-ey all the day

    From ev-ery open-ing flower!

    How skill-ful-ly she builds her cell!

    How neat-ly spreads the wax!

    And la-bors hard to store it well

    With the sweet food she makes.



    In works of la-bor or of skill

    I would be bus-y too:

    For Sa-tan finds some mis-chief still

    For i-dle hands to do.





    In books, or work, or health-ful play

    Let my first years be passed,

    That I may give for ev-ery day

    Some good ac-count at last.



    Hmmm is John saying something THERE?

    SHE shall be, HER little heart, SHE pleases, SHE has been removed to third person, and John is quoting idle hands are the Devil's workshop, I am not sure who is nuts here.

    Had to throw that in, more...

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 04:17 pm
    Where I come from a "smooch" is a smudge (a stain that has been rubbed into a surface.) I don't remember hearing "smooch" used for kiss until after I left New England. Nor did I ever hear of "smudge pots" until years after that.



    Also, where I come from old houses that have been shut up and empty for any period of time can have an odor, and it is this I thought of when the narrator mentioned the smell, which was worse after days of rain. It is caused by dampness permeating the wood. That causes mildew, and it is that which makes the smell.

    The smell of sulphur always implies the fires of Hell to me. As I recall, in the old days burning of sulphur matches was used in the old days was to rid the house of the musty, mildew smell. This may possibly be where the idea of burning the house down "to get to the smell" comes from.



    I have often thought that symbols were in the eyes of the beholder, who makes whatever he or she wants from them, unless it is universally agreed that a blue, white and red pole standing in front of a store means there is a barbershop there. In other words, I think symbols can have individual interpretations.

    I wonder if Charlotte Perkins Gilman had something symbolic in mind when she made the wallpaper yellow, or if the color was chosen arbitrarily? The top of a bucket of fresh milk left in a place that's cool in the country can be yellow because the fat, or cream, rises to the top. A buttercup is yellow, so is the heart of a daisy. These are not an unpleasant uses of the word.

    Yellow can imply mold, decay or infection. Some analysts say Gilman was showing her bias toward Asian people with the use of "yellow" (the Yellow Peril I mentioned earlier.) They also mentioned that blacks (Negroes to her) came under the category of yellow. In other words, the word "yellow" can mean something that is considered inferior. GINNY asks why John has yellow from the wallpaper on his clothes. I say, why not? Any time he accidentally leaned against the wallpaper, some of the dye would come off, wouldn't it?



    The word "creeping" can be taken literally to mean someone who moves on his or her hands and knees. It also can mean skulking, moving about in a stealthy way. I think Gilman meant creeping on hands and knees. To me the woman the narrator sees creeping outside is the woman behind the wallpaper freed.



    I have not been outside this room since September 28th. When one is so confined, the walls become like a second skin. They can be a comfort, or they can be as negative as a threat to well-being and cause the feeling of being trapped. Since, as I've said before, I think the woman behind the wallpaper is the trapped subconscious self of the narrator, the wallpaper has become an unwanted skin, which she feels she must take off in order to reveal this self and better ally it with the overt one she really knows in order for her (and her mind) to be whole. This, I believe, is part of the fragmentation she feels.



    The narrator has become quite paranoid. There is no one for her to trust, especially since she has a secret mission, that of revealing her other self.



    My Florida son called me this evening, and I asked him when he was going to send me some of the things he's written. He can be a very good writer when he wants to be, and I'd like to publish some of his work. He told me again that this writing is in the form of a journal. I said, "Fine." Then he said that the first part is entirely taken up with a description of one of the psychotic episodes he's recently had. Now, my dears, under the circumstances created by this discussion, don't you think I'm itching to get my hands on this? I only wish he'd send his writing before this discussion ends so we could talk about a real today case, but I have a distinct feeling he won't.

    Mal

    MountainRose
    November 9, 2003 - 04:22 pm
    post on this, I want to add my opinions, even though I'm new to this discussion.

    While reading the story I felt myself get very annoyed with the character, I think, because it felt so familiar and I was annoyed with myself and the fact that I didn't understand what was happening in my younger years most of all.

    First of all, I think this woman is probably creative (writing), and in her society her creativity has been stifled by her "duties" as a woman. Second, I think her husband is just the normal male who responds to his wife in the normal fashion for that time (not good, but one can't quire blame him either). Third, I think she probably suffered from postpartum depression, but then also gave in to it.

    Obviously, to me, she was not confined to the house and she had access to the house and the garden, and even a view through the windows, and she seems to have very little spiritual dimension to her, which can often overcome daily deadly boredom. And she probably was conflicted between being a strong woman and wanting to be babied and thus caught in her own trap by her own imagination. So I for one want to shake her and say, "Lady, wake up. There's a world out there other than what's in your head and that confounded yellow wallpaper."

    At the same time I have empathy because I've been in similar circumstances, and I have a theory about women in general and why we react the way we do and sometimes become deliberately helpless. We look at things only from our modern perspective, but humanity was here long before we were, and in all that time women had no control over their own bodies. Being pregnant all the time required that a woman depended on a man while she was heavy with child, and also while the child was too young to fend for itself. With a human being that takes many years, and in the meantime she's probably pregnant again and again. So in order to keep the man around for her and her children's survival, she becomes compliant (even with abuse), and the more compliant she is, the better her chances are that her genetics will survive. That, I feel, is a legacy we women have been left with even though we don't need to be compliant anymore. It's sort of like the appendix, there for what were once good reasons but no longer useful. It is in-bred, genetic, survival, and not very useful anymore although it was at one time. And I think that's what this woman is going through---her own conflicting emotions of what society expects of her and what she wishes for herself, and it becomes destructive to the point of madness. It was probably triggerd by the PPD, but she didn't let it end there and just sort of wallowed in it because it was "easy". I've been there, done that too, and most women I know have done that to some extent. And husbands never do know what to make of it, even modern husbands.

    What I do wonder about, however, and what makes the story a puzzle to me is why did he insist on that particular room? Not only did it have rings on the walls (chained person???), the nailed-down bed (one bed? so were they sleeping together? which also means sexual demands on her that she might have been averse to in her PPD?), and the yellow ugly wallpaper, but at shoulder-level there were marks as though a prior person had been confined there, who ended up rubbing shoulders against the wall right at that hight as he/she crawled round and round the room.

    Could it be that being a sensitive artistic person she picked up on that? And in her confusion and PPD state she just ended up becoming the prior tenant of that room?

    The story is confusing to me. If the author wrote it specifically for the purposes she claims she wrote it for, then she is giving a lot of clues that just don't fit and a lot of false leads. I don't find it a horror story at all, but sort of a self-indulgent descent into madness, which, as I said before, women are predisposed to because of our genetic heritage for survival plus our hormonal changes that often trigger such things. Add to that the creative personality and the fact that family histories of creative people often contain much manic depressive illness and schizophrenia, and you have a sort of "illness just waiting to happen".

    Just my thoughts on this. Don't know if they are right or wrong, but somehow I just don't think this story hangs together very well, and I find I have very little sympathy for her, just as in looking back over my own life, I have very little sympathy for the woman I once was who was very similar except that my descent was not quite as steep. There are advantages to growing older and wiser.

    I think Mal has it right on the button when she says, "I stopped drawing and painting pictures because I couldn't seem to live up to his standards. When I did this (of my own volition) I stopped doing two of the things which throughout my life had compensated for lacks created by certain paralytic effects of polio, and including, I suppose, a sense of inferiority physically that almost all handicapped people have."--except I don't think it was because of not living up to "his" standards, but just giving in to the pressures of what is expected of women, and it is still that way. Women today in some ways have more pressures than ever to "perform", not only as a wife, but as a mother, as a career person, as a sexual object, as needing to stay "young and slender", etc., etc.

    That's one reason I truly enjoy living alone, being a hermit and an artist---no expectations at all from anyone except myself. It's such a relief!!!

    Ginny
    November 9, 2003 - 04:28 pm
    Welcome Mountain Rose
    Good heavens, ANOTHER new person, I believe this breaks yet another record here for our book discussions, hooray!! And you've read all the posts! Welcome! I like your slant on Narrator, sort of like YiLiLin's, and I like Cheryl's on the husband, and I'm mentally putting people in this or that camp, trying breathlessly to keep up, so don't ever worry about whether you are "right or wrong?" You just say YOUR opinion and that will be good enough for us!

    We not only don't mind if we don't agree, we hope to learn from those who disagree with us.

    Welcome!

    ginny who may have to get off now and post tomorrow to all of your great points but keep em coming there's a lot to reflect on in these two pages 9 and 10!!

    IF we get another new person, please, all of you, welcome him/ her/ Cheryl and Mountain Rose!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 05:00 pm
    MOUNTAIN ROSE, a rose is a rose by whatever name, but you do remind me of a woman who called herself Mountain Gal, also an artist and hermit.

    Your interpretation of what happened to me and what I decided is yours, not mine, though I agree that there are many pressures on women at this time. So are there pressures on men.

    Mal

    horselover
    November 9, 2003 - 05:05 pm
    The word "smooch" meaning kiss comes from the original definition given by Mal, "a stain that has been rubbed into a surface." When lipstick first came into use, it did not have the indelible, non-smudge properties it has today. When you kissed someone, especially if it was romantically, you left a smudge. Hence the kiss became known in slang as a "smooch."

    I think it's interesting that the narrator has finally achieved what some theories hold is the unconscious purpose of a psychosis--the blocking out of an intolerable reality. She tells us that her "life is very much more exciting now than it used to be. You see I have something more to expect, to look forward to, to watch. I really do eat better, and am more quiet than I was." She has succeeded in forgetting her former miserable life in favor of watching this new existence unfold. This is another reason why psychotics do not want to take medication; they complain of a flatness to life while on the drugs that dampen down their delusions and hallucinations.

    I do agree with those who think the woman in the wallpaper could be the narrator's highly repressed self trying desperately to get out before being entirely swallowed up in madness.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 05:13 pm
    Hi, CHERYL. Well, I'll tell you, in my long career of either fending off or pursuing men ( ! ) I've found quite a few who did not just tolerate "women's whims." The difference between these guys and others I've known was that they were all grown up. They were grown up enough anyway not to feel threatened by women. They were able to listen to what they say with a lot of understanding, whether they were married to them or not. Some even told me they had learned a lot from women and were not at all surprised that they had.

    Mal

    Phyll
    November 9, 2003 - 05:15 pm
    OK, I had to look it up. I just accepted it as an archaic word but after your speculation, Ginny, I needed to know so I dragged out my beloved OED and found this: smooch: U.S. - 1842 - A smutch or smear; To sully or dirty. So this would have been a word that Gilman would have been familiar with and certain that her reading public would have understood.

    I think Gilman is so deft at showing the regression into insanity. The woman in the story never says, "I think I'm going crazy!" (Gilman credits us with the intelligence to see that insanity is happening without having to tell us.) She (the protagonist) sees ugly wallpaper, it disturbs her, the room disturbs her, then she begins to see things in it, then moving figures, moving women (never moving MEN), then she becomes quiet, very tired,. but she never sleeps, she watches John and Jennie, she is becoming suspicious of them. At first she wanted to leave the room but now she doesn't. It excites her. She thinks of old, foul yellow things and it smells, not bad at first but now all over the house. The wallpaper is becoming all important to her and her family less and less. She hasn't even mentioned the baby for a long time---does she even think about him?

    This story is all consuming. I have tried to remember when I first read it and I am not certain. I went to Kansas State College (now University) in the late 1940's. My major (that was in the days when you could choose a major in the beginning of your college career) was English Literature with a minor in Psychology. I loved both fields and was interested in Psychology because Psych. majors could spend a semester doing field study at the Menninger Clinic in Topeka. But I loved Lit., too! Thought I wanted to be an author. Found out that endeavor required self-discipline and something called talent. So what did I do? I met a boy, fell in love and got married. Would I change it? Absolutely not! Anyhow, I think I read this story in my General Psychology course as an illustration of one woman's path to mental deterioration. It impressed me deeply then and it still does.

    EDIT: By the time I get something written a gazillion posts have gone by! I apologize for repeating information that Mal had already given us. I will add that the "yellow" sulphur smell reminds me of illness. Sulphur was often burned in a sickroom to cover the smell of serious illness or infection.

    kiwi lady
    November 9, 2003 - 05:38 pm
    Hi everyone

    Just to let you know my computer has blown up and I don't know when I will get it fixed. Ruth has kindly offered to let me use hers but I don't want to be a nuisance so my posting will have to be somewhat restricted. I will still join in the discussions as best I can. As you can imagine I am devestated! If its major repairs needed it will be some time before I can afford it or the at the worst buy a new one.

    I will come in tomorrow and begin reading the posts here and put in my two cents worth. Mal can you tell my mates in Oz and Michigan what has happened. Carolyn

    Phyll
    November 9, 2003 - 05:59 pm
    Ah, Carolyn, come in as much as you can. What a time to have that happen! Your insight is so valuable to this wonderful (and disturbing) discussion.

    I think John and Jennie are staring at the wall paper because they are finally beginning to realize that their wife and sister-in-law is not getting better, as John so optimistically stated, but is in fact getting worse. Was John so confident of his method of treatment that it has taken him until too late to realize that it isn't working? Or is he gauging how well it is working? Is he concerned for her mental health or smugly satisfied?

    Faithr
    November 9, 2003 - 06:05 pm
    My goodness I have been reading for an hour or more. Hundred posts? I forgot to count..but re: Mal's post 325 I must say I did not forget this womans humanity. In fact I was in her shoes. Not just reading the story either. Literal. We were born a hundred years apart yet our suffering could have been in the same year. I being born in 1927 didnt realize how inhuman psychiatry still really is until I suffered my illness. Hysteria was the first diagnosis. It was not for a few years that they called me "atypical anxiety disorder" what ever they meant by that. They were at least describing my fears and panics. And the medications at that time were just as bad as laudanum.

    All the time I read the story (many times) I suffer real empathy as she deteriorates and cannot distinguish what is real and what is not.

    The author is not the narrator in the story but she had to have suffered as did I or she could not have written so descriptive a story of the breakdown of a personality. Faith

    MountainRose
    November 9, 2003 - 06:09 pm
    tp come back in by that name for some reason, so here I am as MountainRose---same person. You are a good detective and have a good memory!

    MountainRose
    November 9, 2003 - 06:29 pm
    experience Mal. I merely meant that it isn't necessarily the expectations of the husbands that put some, or even most, woman into the trap of giving everything up, but it's often the woman's own expectations of what she's been taught by osmosis in her society. I guess I worded it a bit clumsily. I apologize.

    But that's the trap I got caught in. I wanted to be the "PERFECT WIFE" and by doing that I trapped myself. I don't think my husband ever expected that of me at all. And all the time I wanted to be that perfect wife I neglected my own self and my own talents until I became a shell and I took on a role that wasn't "me". And it's interesting that my mother was never like that at all. She stayed true to herself and who she was right to the end, but she was also not in the least creative or artistic, so her personality meshed pretty well with what society expected: the housewife, the mother, the hostess, all of which were "natural" to her. I recall the societal pressures as being very heavy to be that perfect wife and mother, and I conformed. Even my father had expectations of me to conform, and he considered a woman who didn't a "freak", such as his own sister who never married. He felt it was unnatural for a woman to be single and not do "what all women are supposed to do". The woman in this story probably felt those pressures even more in her day and age.

    Maybe that's why I'm so impatient with this character, but I believe it's because I can see what happened to her in retrospect and want to wake her up. LOL

    Scrawler
    November 9, 2003 - 06:31 pm
    Page 9 of 12:

    "Life is very much more exciting now than it used to be. You see I have something more to expect, to look forward to, to watch." Okay now we are getting somewhere, but exactly where I have no idea. I can't help wonder if she didn't feel SAFE in her room. To her way of thinking was she more comfortable with the WALLPAPER than with real people like John or Jeannie? If we look at the way she was treated by the so-called "real" people, how could she feel otherwise.

    "It is the strangest yellow, that wall-paper! It makes me think of all the yellow things I ever saw - not beautiful ones like buttercups, but old foul, bad yellow things." Does it seem queer to you that she is getting excited about something that she describes in negative terms? Is this a sign of mental illness? Or is it just the way the author writes to emphasize a particular point and get our attention.

    "But there is something else about the paper - the smell! I noticed it the moment we came into the room, but with so much air and sun it was not bad. Now we have had a week of fog and rain, and whether the windows are open or not, the smell is there." See this paragraph is very interesting. Doesn't it seem rational to you? Yet, in the next few sentences we seem to flip-flop into fancy:

    "It creeps all over the house. I find it hovering in the dining room, skulking in the parlor, hiding in the hall, lying in wait for me on the stairs. It gets in my hair. Even when I go to ride, if I turn my head suddenly and surprise it there is that smell!" I guess once and for all we know that she gets out of the room. But I think that she would prefer not to leave the room. She is a contradiction in that she fears what is in the room, but is even more afraid to be out of the room.

    "Such a peculiar odor too! I have spent hours in trying to analyze it to find what it smelled like." See again she is being very rational. She is ANALYZING the smell. But than we have to ask ourselves is the smell real or imaginary?

    "It is not bad - at first, and very gentle, but quite the sublest, most enduring odor I ever met...It used to disturb me at first. I thought seriously of burning the house - to reach the smell." Oops! Now I would say this is definitely going too far. But she didn't act on her thoughts, so does that still make her CRAZY?

    "But now I am used to it. The only thing I can think of that it is like is the COLOR of the paper! A yellow smell." What wonderful imajery! What comes to mind when you think of a yellow smell? A positive yellow smell would be a "lemony" smell to me because it brings back childhood memories. If smells trigger memories, what would happen with negative smells? Would they trigger negative memories? Is this what's happening to the speaker?

    "There is a very funny mark on this wall, low down near the mopboard. A streak that runs around the room. it goes behind every piece of furniture, except the bed, a long, straight, even SMOOCH, as if it had been rubbed over and over." How can a SMOOCH be even if it has been rubbed over and over? Wouldn't the edges be uneven? Is it that the speaker sees the wallpaper more organized and the real world only chaos?

    "I see her on that long road under the trees, creeping along, and when a carriage comes she hides under the blackberry vines. I don't blame her a bit! It must be very humiliating to be caught creeping by daylight! I have watched her sometimes away off in the open country, creeping as fast as a cloud shadow in a high wind." Isn't this just wishful thinking? Wishing that she could be this woman to be free to "creep" anytime she wants. Haven't we all wished to do something that for one reason or other we are unable to accomplish?

    Malryn (Mal): Thanks for the great source: Primary symbols and images in "The Yellow Wallpaper". How interesting I also thought about Edith Wharton's "The Mount." I wonder if Gilman was familiar with it.

    You know what I found interesting about women in the 19th century. They were allowed to prepare dead bodies for burial, but were not allowed to attend the actual funeral for fear that they would faint. Wealthy women were also encouraged to read novels to pass the time as long as the books didn't give them queer ideas in regards to sex. (Writier's Guide to Everyday Life in the 1800s.)

    Yes, definitely down with the bars and off with the wallpaper that imprisons us, but not everyone has the strength to do this even if we know it is the right thing to do. Does it mean that we are NUTS if we choose to stay where we feel (even if only in our own mind) SAFE? What holds us back? Is it FEAR of what is out in the real world? Or is it baggage from our past that we can't let go?

    Kiwi lady: I believe that I have a dual nature - not only an evil vs. good but also a female vs. male. There are times when I lean towards my male side and there are other times when I lean toward my female side. As a child I did want to be male because they seemed to have more freedom, but I wouldn't have wanted to go to war and kill anyone so I'm glad that I'm a woman.

    Ginny: "Would you be in the same shape...?" If my thoughts were negative and I was left alone like the speaker seems to be than I would have to answer YES. But if my thoughts were positive than the answer would definitely be NO. Your mind can play tricks on you and make you see things that aren't really there. But if you can turn these thoughts around into positive actions than the negative thoughts can't harm you.

    I think the speaker thinks that there is a woman creeping behind the wallpaper and this makes it real to her. Perhaps the others DO see the woman but don't want to admit it. Sometimes the mind goes faster than the rest of the body. Haven't you ever seen something out of the corner of your and when you turn there is nothing there? In my apartment it is my cat who travels at the speed of light on occasion but most of the time is a large lump on top of my bed.

    Scrawler (Anne of Oregon)

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 07:32 pm
    Thank you, Phyll, for the OED definition of smooch: US 1842 - a smutch or smear; to sully or dirty. Since the wallpaper IMO represents patriarchal authority, the narrator has progressed to the point of active rebellion in acknowledging it's evil influences (the smell of sulfur coming from the wallpaper).

    I'm interested in what causes the woman's growing instability, even more than the end result of her mental condition.

    The woman/women behind the wallpaper are women in Gilman's society who must submit and be disregarded or treated as subservient to men. This isn't set in the 20th or 21st Century but in the 1800's when women couldn't vote, married women couldn't own property and women were the property of first their father and then their husbands when they married. On and on goes the list of restrictions of gendered roles.

    The narrator feels trapped, she hates the wallpaper, and I believe that each of the divisions in the story shows a gradual change in her, a growing awareness, of what that wallpaper personifies. I think that she believes she's getting better because of her awareness of what makes her ill; that it isn't her fault or weakness but is caused by Society and what it does to women.

    The oppressive authority is something she can't get away from even in a house which mythically was supposed to be 'woman's domain;' the sulfur smell of authority was in the dining room, the parlor, the hall,the stairs, and the bedroom. Ginny asks "who or what is the real antagonist in this piece?" I'd say Society because of the lopsided gender roles.

    Marvelle

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 9, 2003 - 09:31 pm
    For me the change was with this sentence

    There are things in that paper that nobody knows but me, or ever will.


    From that point on in the story our writer seems to bond with the wallpaper, bond with what is behind the paper or part of the design that she sees as a second dimension that she alone can see.

    There is one marked peculiarity about this paper, a thing nobody seems to notice but myself, and that is that it changes as the light changes.

    I didn't realize for a long time what the thing was that showed behind, that dim sub-pattern, but now I am quite sure it is a woman.


    An earlier sentence combined with these about her knowing and noticing is this one that to me is interesting since she speaks of Law --

    On a pattern like this, by daylight, there is a lack of sequence, a defiance of law, that is a constant irritant to a normal mind.


    What law? The law of sequence, a law that is defined by a normal mind - and yet, the way the sentence is constructed, along with her lone knowing and noticing, for me it is saying, unless you live by and abide by the law that society agrees is a sequence in behavior, a pattern of behavior that can stand up to the clear light of day you are defiant -

    hmmm and how does a nineteenth century women show defiance while being dependent -- she is not part of woman's suffrage nor acting the Marianne with a Phygrain Cap of Liberty -- the author has continued a story that shows not only, in the early pages, John didn't listen to her but, regardless the sympathy or not we have for John, given the time of the story and how we expected men to behave, the author is letting us know there was another set of behavior expected from John and she has the protagonist say,

    I had no intention of telling him it was BECAUSE of the wall-paper--he would make fun of me. He might even want to take me away.


    The writers ownership is so great that her competitive nature comes out when she says,

    But I know she was studying that pattern, and I am determined that nobody shall find it out but myself!


    Interesting how we can identify with something or someone or for many of us, a character in a book or the story itself and feel it is our story -- so much so, we want to be exclusive in determining the meaning because it must conform with our experience or solve our sought after solution to the problem as we have framed it.

    I wonder if that is what makes a good author - writing a story in a way that it fits the lives of many readers who all then own it as their story -

    There is the saying that reading is a creative act since we bring our own life experiences into understanding a story - Understanding is one step deeper then simply hearing about... - it is relating the information or story to our own experience -

    But I wonder, does that also mean a sense of ownership so that we begin to adjust meaning and adjust the understanding of our own life in a new light because of a story an author was particularly good at bringing us along, allowing us to identify with the characters or their experience?

    Our protagonist even says,
    Life is very much more exciting now than it used to be. You see I have something more to expect, to look forward to, to watch. I really do eat better, and am more quiet than I was.


    How often do we feel more excited because we have identified with a story, look forward to the read that we often call the book a 'real page turner,' as we watch the action or behavior described, as we look forward to the unexpected storyline or how the character handles the situation we identify with.

    And then back to the behavior of our writer - because of knowing, seeing, expecting and watching she is quiet and eats better - that is what we have read John wants - If she is quiet and eats better she fits the picture of a good healthy women/wife/mother of his children. The surface of her looks good - like a child seen but not heard where as, she is really not about the light of day but in the darkness she is defiant of the law, searching that which is not approved since it is creating smootches, sullying her clothing where as, it is holding her attention.

    Her defiance is a smootch or sully on society, on society's expectations for women which Marvelle describes.

    Is this also alluding to the child like status she has during the day and the Hippocracy of the behavior expected from a child turned women at night - no sequential law is rational at night but a change is expected during the light of day. Is she alluding to not only the child versus women but an inadequate sex life when she says,

    In the daytime it is tiresome and perplexing.


    In the light of day when she is not following a sequential law but rather she hides - hides that she is a women at night but a child-like-dependent during the day who is hiding her excitement about what has become her meaningful work which is a secret search, the only meaningful work that she could extract from her restrictive circumstances and her protective ownership about that work which searching to further learn the meaning of the pattern - We know from earlier in the story, hiding makes her tired. Now she sleeps during the day...!

    Is this saying any women who hide her true character, nature, desires under a bushel in order to fit society's expectations, or not to rock the boat, or please parents or our boss, we are making ourselves tired.

    People pleasing is a tiring activity...that smells...smells all our surroundings as it smells all her surroundings...in her hair...is that where the idea for the song came from, "I Wanna Wash that Man Right Out of My Hair" --

    Is this what she really discovered when she says,

    I really have discovered something at last.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2003 - 10:12 pm
    Written November 3:
    "Women had been kept ignorant. A woman's voting implied that she had a will of her own, so, of course, that was prevented, too. Lucky for us, there were women like Lucretia Mott, Elizabeth Cady Staunton and Susan B. Anthony in the United States and Emmeline Pankhurst in England, who recognized that women were discriminated against by society and the males representing that society, and decided to do something about it. These women fought to win us one of our greatest freedoms. By doing so, they changed the attitude of society."
    Also on November 3:
    "The protagonist in the story had a choice early in the story before she became a mental cripple. I am almost insistent that her refusing to stand up to her husband was caused by the way she was raised, and that was dictated by society."
    Because I believe what I've written in these and other posts, I will say here that I do not blame a man or men or society for negative things that happened to me. I take full responsibility for them because I allowed them to happen.

    I did not live in the late 19th century. As a woman of the 20th and 21st century, my choices have been and are much greater than those Charlotte Perkins Gilman and the narrator had. I've grown tired of hearing women say this thing or that thing which went wrong in their lives was the fault of a man or men. Why? Because these women let men run all over them?

    Certain inalienable rights women in our past fought hard for so we would have choices now are being threatened in male-dominated governments today. My answer to that is: Vote the bums out! If we sit and allow someone else to manipulate and run our lives, whether it's a woman or a man, it's our own darned fault.

    I stopped passing the buck. As Harry Truman said, "The buck stops here" right in my lap and my daughter's and my granddaughters' . . . . and yours.

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 9, 2003 - 10:24 pm
    Barbara, a childlike state indeed. I think that's part of the "creeping" movement we see in the story.

    Creeping, or crawling like an infant prepratory to walking on one's own -- that could apply to the women she sees creeping in the open or outside. They've achieved some independence (I don't remember them being hindered or accompanied by others) but are still relatively new-born, hence the creeping.

    Creeping can also imply snakish or coming up from behind to overpower which could apply not only to the creeping, sulfurish, evil smell emanating from the wallpaper that subtly overtakes the house but also the rules of Society and patriarchal authority which overtake women's lives.

    Here's how a dictionary defines creeping -- to move with the body on or close to the ground, as a reptile or an insect or a child on hands and knees; to move slowly, imperceptibly, or stealthily; to sneak up behind someone or without someone's knowledge; to move or behave timidly; to grow along the ground, a wall, etc., as a plant

    What I'm beginning to see IMO is the surface plot of a woman giving in to madness, while the allegory turns it all around and what seems mad in the surface plot is the symbolic process of women taking more control and responsibility in their lives. I'll see if that double turning works at the end.

    Marvelle

    annafair
    November 10, 2003 - 05:42 am
    While I have been busy putting three coats of paint on my little room i am working on and now trying to lay some laminated flooring YOU ALL HAVE BEEN BUSY HERE! For three hours I have devoured your posts and still have 100 to go..I decided I would get nothing done at home if I didnt skip to the end so here I am.

    I do want to say all of the posts and ideas are remarkable and never would I have thought such a short story could stir up so many opinions and ideas and thoughts nor that everyone who read it had an idea about it....which is really absolutely wonderful

    My first feelings about the story still holds true...and since she is writing this after she is supposedly well I would say she is manipulating us...but for a good reason ...she wants us to understand how we are affected by our expectations and by what society expects from women.

    Since I am only 5' tall I was always annoyed by men who seemed to feel being short and a woman made me stupid...still am annoyed but thanks for a mother who was so far ahead of her time I was raised to be independent. By the time I was married just short of ten years we had already moved 13 times due to my husband's military career, had spent four years in Europe where we moved three times plus a great deal of traveling. With our husbands away a lot most of the wives I knew where also independent. Being overseas was interesting and informative and stimulating but when we returned stateside in 1957 we bought a house and our little girl entered first grade. My husband was still traveling and we were alone a lot. In the beginning I was involved with church activities but soon I wanted to take some classes at the local university...When I mentioned this to my husband he gave me a lot of reasons why that was not a good idea. When he returned from the base the next day I announced I had signed up for those classes. His remark " I thought we decided you wouldnt take those classes?" My reply "No you decided I wouldnt take them. I support you in your ambitions and interests and feel you should support mine." His reply and God Bless him for it was " YOu are right I should and I do." Which to his credit he did encouraging me in any interest and effort I made over the years..right to the end.

    My expierence with doctors was not as good because I wanted to be part of any treatment ..to follow the doctors suggestions or reject it ...like the narrator of this story ..they always thought they knew best...I can say truthfully if I had been married to John I too would have been driven to insanity or murder.

    I intend to return when I have another three hours to read the posts I had to to omit this time and all of the new ones sure to be here.

    One thing I would like to say ..to all who have shared their stories I want to tell you how I admire you ...for your courage and bravery to leave behind a world that was not for you. For your determination to be who you are and not what someone else wanted you to be. I know it couldnt have been easy and sometimes society and family and friends fail to appreciate how much it takes to move forward and take control ...I am so glad to be part of this important discussion..anna

    Ginny
    November 10, 2003 - 06:05 am
    Wow wow wow thank you all for your marvelous insights they are helping me. I find these two pages the most difficult in all of the story because they are a transition, I want to come back and respond to each of your points as, like Lou, they haunted my dreams but I got UP with a Phyll Moment and I need to get it DOWN before I get distracted (and straightened out) by your own thoughts, so here we gooooooo.

    Barbara, I want to thank you for the thought, For me the change was with this sentence, "There are things in that paper that nobody knows but me, or ever will."

    I like that so much I would like that to be the question of the day. This section IS about change, the whole thing. For me it was another sentence. Barbara is talking about climax here, and I would like to look at that, something that happens, the action builds up and up and then nothing is the same afterwards. Let's all look today and see if we can identify it, I personally (and could be wrong) believe it's in these two pages.

    Lemme get this down quickly?

  • creeping:

    I could not sleep as I could not make sense out of what she's saying. Creeping, Marvelle has defined it beautifully and also given it some symbolic meaning. I ask today WHY creeping? Right before I went to bed last night I thought: PHYLL MOMENT!! OF COURSE she's creeping, she has to, to match the wallpaper, she's pulled it OFF as high as she can reach? Er….what?? what?? If it's OFF then it's not on the bottom, what? Huh? So why creep? Er….. no I think she's pulled it off behind the BED only, is that right, as high as she can reach. So that theory is down the drain? Creeping, why creeping particularly, all I can think of is a miscarriage I had after which I could not stand up straight for a while, it was more comfortable ….I guess you'd say creeping, but let's not project my own situation on this woman (who IS post partum after all?) We don't need any projection here, let's try to deal with what she says., and she SAYS
  • "Then she said that the paper stained everything it touched, that she had found yellow smooches on all my clothes and John's and she wished we would be more careful!"

    All right, here again, up I jumped this morning (my husband may be ready to send ME to a house alone) and said, AHA! Listen, if you are ill or delicate of balance for whatever reason you do tend to brace yourself on the wall? John is young, a man who goes about in the world, with a young wife and baby (she has to be young in that day and time to have a baby) and there is no reason whatsoever that the yellow wallpaper should be getting on his clothes? None. I woke up to the thought that it has been a LONG time since I myself brushed against my own walls and I am hardly a young man. I got up this morning thinking about Hyacinth Bucket and the repairmen and how she would lead the men down the hall bracing them away from her walls, what a hoot, but the fact IS that her halls are narrow and it would be almost impossible not to brush against them, but Narrator has told us many many times that the room is huge, it's a GIGANTIC room airy many windows, it's HUGE and there is no reason whatsoever that John should be hitting the walls. Unless of course we (and I'm not sure this is not the case) have also entered into the paranoia and think HE is doing something strange. I don't, but you might. A young healthy man is not going to go around scraping on the walls of a big room.

    For me the defining sentence in this piece is this one "I have found out another funny thing, but I shan't tell it this time! It does not do to trust people too much." This is it, for me, from this point on everything changes. Here the author has brought up, again, the theme of communication. We asked earlier WHO she was writing this journal for, to WHOM is she speaking? Many talked about the release in writing and that she was doing it for herself.

    Here we can see that she is or was attempting to communicate with somebody. Here she says she no longer trusts "people." This can mean several different things.

    Since I have always thought she was confiding in US, this means to me, that she has suddenly decided WE are the enemy too and since WE are the enemy and she can no longer trust US then it's every man or woman for himself, commence au creeping. Here I believe we can see some of the foundation for those angry with her, those who say she has manipulated us, the reader. No person is uncompassionate, but the WRITING is blatantly here talking about communication Communication is another theme: she's guarded and false with John and Jennie, won't communicate at ALL with baby, he makes her "nervous," has communicated with US, but now turns her back on us, too, just about the time she has us totally in sympathy, and this phrase, to me says it all and I LOVE the last two pages starting out " There are only two more days to get his paper off." Two more days two more pages, we've turned a corner here, we'll look at why she wants it off when we get there, what is your own perception of the appearance of the room at this point? How much paper IS off? I can't help but notice the sentence on page 11, "I believe John is beginning to notice," and I really don't want to go to 11 till we get there, but that would seem to indicate most of it is on, or is John as unobservant of the paper as he is his wife's deteriorating condition?

    Let's ask this morning if there is a place in these two pages (or not) that indicate to you a turning point, a climax, let's ask you why John has yellow on his clothes, let's ask about the nature of the communication we see here, I almost want to say she is not only IN control here, but has been, all along.

    more on your truly super points, after lunch, I have to go out, I apologize for not getting to them first, but feared if I did not get THIS down in print it would be gone.

    What do you think?

    ginny
  • Ginny
    November 10, 2003 - 06:08 am
    Welcome, Annafair!! I am so glad to see you here!!

    I would also like to thank our Pat Westerdale for her constant attention to the heading, you may see the new questions up there for Pages 9 and 10, and shortly the ones for today? Thank you, Pat!

    I am looking forward to hearing from each of you what, if any, turning point you found so far in the text, it may be that to you it's coming up, is there one so far?

    Back after lunch,

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 06:21 am
    What, don't you trust my memory for old New England words and phrases? Charlotte Perkins Gilman grew up hearing the same things I did. Like "Don't be so slack" when a room is not kept tidily.

    I'm surprised she didn't use "Get thee behind me, Satan," a phrase that was used commonly where I grew up.

    "Peak-ed" was used like this: "You look peak-ed today. Ain't you feelin' just right, Evelyn?"

    And "Don't sit on the hearth, you'll get smooches on your dress" and "She's a child of iniquity."

    The word "wa'n't" was used for "wasn't", and it irritated me when I was in school trying to learn grammar and word usage. "He wa'n't never any good."

    "He come in like a bat out of Hell."

    "Hitch up your draws, we're goin' to church. You better sit still as a mouse while Reverend Fiske preaches hellfire and brimstone."

    Then there was "Who's he think he is actin' like Billy be Damned?" There are more.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 07:33 am
    This tells me narrator is creeping on her hands and knees.
    "There is a very funny mark on this wall, low down, near the mopboard. A streak that runs round the room."
    I think when she describes the woman behind the wallpaper, she's talking about herself. The woman is shaking the bars. I can see the narrator shaking the bars at the window. She feels imprisoned by the "rest cure" and its restrictions, and wants to get out. The "round and round" statement is about how she creeps around the room, making the smooch with her shoulder, probably. I think the pattern and dye were coming off the wallpaper in tiny, dust-like flakes. It would be all over the room, on the bed and on all the furniture. It would be easy for the narrator's husband to get it on his clothes.

    I wonder if she sneaks outside and creeps around out in the yard?

    By Page 9 the narrator is quite mad, and it seems to me that a reader should not take all she says literally. Gilman has worked up to this quite cleverly with things like "And it is like a woman stooping down and creeping about behind that pattern." That's on Page 7 and may be the first time the narrator creeps.

    She has become paranoid and thinks she is watched -- those "bulbous eyes" and not telling the paper on which she writes what she has found out.

    I don't feel manipulated either by Gilman or the narrator, and I must separate the two because Gilman was sane when she wrote this; the narrator isn't.

    The biggest mistake I made when I was helping and caring for my son was to listen to him during a psychotic episode and try to make sense out of what he said. I was approaching him and what he was going through as if he were sane.

    I remember going to the psychologist who helped me at that time all upset by things my son said. The psychologist had to tell me several times before I got it in my head that my son didn't know what he was talking about. Neither does the narrator. I was searching for answers to my son's condition through words that were coming from a not sane mind.

    Keepng that in mind, I say that there is no hidden meaning in what the narrator says, except what we the readers put there. Gilman was portraying a terribly sick mind. She succeeds very, very well. So well, in fact, that we are convinced by this fictional character that she's revealing some sort of secret to us in the exact same way that I was absolutely sure about things said by my son.

    My son, Rob, met a young woman he liked in a 12 step meeting who seemed to share some things with him, and I invited her over one night. She was from a genteel, educated family in New York, and we were talking about Westchester County where they lived and where my family and I once lived. It was a perfectly fine conversation about museums and concerts up there when suddenly I realized that this young woman was talking in the exact same way my son did during a psychotic episode. What had been an ordinary conversation had suddenly turned into something that didn't make any sense. The only thing I could do for her was to ask for and take her car keys and drive her home in my car because I knew she was in no condition to drive.

    For this reason I have to be careful with this story. Whether you agree or not, Charlotte Perkins Giman has said she wrote this piece to show the doctor what his treatment did to her. She is writing about madness, as produced by Dr. Weir Mitchell's rest cure in order to stop him from treating other people this way, nothing more and nothing less. I believe what Gilman said.

    Mal

    CherylNY
    November 10, 2003 - 07:52 am
    How great is it that we, as women, can freely discuss this story and anything else we desire. In Gilman's era, that surely was not possible. Women were the last of the slaves, owned by their husbands, unable to own property, to vote, or to really express themselves. No wonder she is trapped by the yellow wallpaper, which to me represents the yellow state of her soul, trapped and bound by traditions and society. As she struggles to get out, I cry for her and for all the strong women who have helped us get to our present and future. We owe it all to them, and it is our duty to pass stories like this to our daughters and granddaughters.

    Cheryl

    Ginny
    November 10, 2003 - 07:56 am
    Good points and explanation of your own point of view, Malryn, I'm not sure I agree about the "nothing more nothing less," but it's a good explication of your own point of view, thank you!

    Now that we have had the opportunity to actually talk with many authors here on SeniorNet about what they intended and what the readers actually see, I think it's valid and I think it's necessary to look at what the writer did, as you say she was sane, and is writing about somebody who is not, good point on the POV of the Narrator, Gilman's doing a good job on US that's for sure, what do the rest of you think about today's issues?

    We are Roundtables on SeniorNet and YOUR chair is waiting, bring us YOUR opinions! Thank you, Malryn!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 10, 2003 - 07:56 am
    Well said, Cheryl, do you see a turning point in these two pages??

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 08:42 am
    Believe me, I agree with all that's been said here about subjugation of females in the past. I have also said (or implied) that it is not necessary for a woman today to allow this to continue, or for a woman of my time to have allowed it. There was a much smaller group of women who fought for women's rights in the past, and I have mentioned some of them. There is a much, much larger group now. Support for all women is available today if they want to access it.

    Charlotte Perkins Gilman was a feminist, an active one. She fought for Women's Rights as a lecturer and a writer. She, in fact, began a magazine called the Forerunner, which I have previously mentioned, in which she states her feminist beliefs and position in various ways. Yes, what I posted earlier was from my own point-of-view. That point-of-view is based on research I've done about Gilman and conclusions drawn from personal experience which were corrobrated by a respected psychologist, Dr. Robert David, in Florida.

    When Gilman "went after" someone or a group, such as men, she went directly without beating around the bush or taking on more than what she wanted to accomplish. I maintain that "The Yellow Wallpaper" was written for exactly the reasons she stated in "Why I Wrote the Yellow Wallpaper". It was written not to expose the treatment of women by "men", but to expose the medical treatment devised by one man, Dr. Silas Weir Mitchell, which led to the mental deterioration of both women and men, exactly as Gilman said.

    Each issue of The Forerunner is full of articles, stories and poetry she wrote, including "Our Androcentric Culture, or the Man-Made World. The quote below is from that essay, which was first published in The Forerunner:
    "Sill's quaint poem, 'Five Lives,'

    'O the little female monad's lips!
    O the little female monad's eyes!
    O the little, little, female, female monad!'

    "This ultra littleness and ultra femaleness has been demanded and produced by our Androcentric Culture. Following this, and part of it, comes the effect on motherhood. This function was the original and legitimate base of family life; and its ample sustaining power throughout the long early period of 'the mother-right;' or as we call it, the matriarchate; the father being her assistant in the great work. The patriarchate, with its proprietary family, changed this altogether; the woman, as the property of the man was considered first and foremost as a means of pleasure to him; and while she was still valued as a mother, it was in a tributary capacity. Her children were now his; his property, as she was; the whole enginery of the family was turned from its true use to this new one, hitherto unknown, the service of the adult male.

    "To this day we are living under the influence of the proprietary family. The duty of the wife is held to involve man-service as well as child-service, and indeed far more; as the duty of the wife to the husband quite transcends the duty of the mother to the child."

    Source:

    The essay, Our Androcentric Culture, or the Man-Made World

    BaBi
    November 10, 2003 - 08:55 am
    I am reminded of a play that my son wrote as a young man. I was troubled by what he had written, fearful that it expressed his own state of mind. When I asked him about it, he was surprised that I could have thought so. As he put it, "Mom, if that was me, I couldn't have written it!" A good point. ...Babi

    Deems
    November 10, 2003 - 09:11 am
    To follow up on what Mal and Babi just posted:

    I doubt that Gilman could have written while she was still in the throes of her terrible despression. This story is written after she had recovered. Art, no matter how "random" or "spontaneous" it may appear to be, takes lots of conscious effort and a sound mind. Think of Poe's mad narrators--"The Tell-Tale Heart," "The Cask of Amontillado."

    Anyone who has access to the Diary Frieda Kahlo kept during the last years of her life, complete with sketches and ideas for paintings, will be able to actually see both the handwriting and the sketches deteriorate as she takes more and more of the medication prescribed for pain.

    I think all the points here made about the madness of the narrator are interesting; however, it is worth keeping in mind that we have an unreliable narrator here, because she is losing her mind in the three months that her journal covers.

    I especially like the way Gilman keeps the focus on the disintegration of the narrator by including only journal entries that are written when the narrator knows she will not be caught.

    When she has guests for the fourth of July, she briefly mentions that event and that she is tired out afterward (even though Jennie did all the work), but no time is spent describing what the events of that visit were. It lasted a week and mother, Nellie (whoever she is? a sister?) and "the children" whoever they are. Maybe they belong to Nellie?) were in attendance.

    The narrator has apparently just been waiting to get back to her journal and her constant turning inward.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 09:21 am
    MARYAlL, did't Gilman write "The Yellow Wallpaper" three years after she had the breakdown? Yes, she had recovered when she wrote this piece. In my opinion, to have been able to portray severe mental illness in the way she did is a magnificent accomplishment.

    Mal

    Deems
    November 10, 2003 - 10:36 am
    Yes, Mal, Gilman wrote the story about three years after the breakdown.

    One would have to be in control of one's faculties to safely write about madness I would think.

    Ginny
    November 10, 2003 - 03:23 pm
    WHOOP! Cornell University has written their permission to use their graphics so we will soon see the two women looking at the wallpaper in the heading and THEN for the last two pages, the cincher. and I've asked Pat when she is able to put up the first two illustrations in the heading now, as Maryal says, they give a feel for the costumes of the day!! YAY Cornell!! And I didn't even have to claim "Cornell Family, " (they have a long list of categories you fall in in making your request which I anxiously scanned, hoping ONE would fit! hahahaa After I wrote them I suddenly remembered my Great Aunt Caroline was the first woman in the school of Obsterics and Gynecology there (come to think of it, it was probably IN the late 1800s or early 1900s' I can easily check, kind of eerie actually for our own piece here but I did not need to pull that extended long association out of the bag hahahaha) YAY!! (I was getting kind of desperate and down to the "wanted to attend Cornell and be a Veterinarian but can't do the math") hahahahahHAHAHAAHAaaaa And they answered anyway!

    Deems
    November 10, 2003 - 03:45 pm
    Nice folks at Cornell, it seems.

    And you did have a relative after all.

    It is my theory that everyone in the USA has a relative of one kind or another who at one time or other attended the University of Michigan.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 10, 2003 - 06:07 pm
    hmmm looks like we have several takes on this story - for me Ginny, she has already gone mad when she says, "I have found out another funny thing, but I shan't tell it this time! It does not do to trust people too much." She had already personified the paper as having women behind the design shaking bars etc.

    Not trusting even her audience is interesting - it sure fits with someone obsessively addicted - and our writer is now obsessively addicted to the paper, wanting exclusively to figure out the secret she imagines is in or behind the wallpaper. One of the characteristics of anyone obsessively addicted is, they no longer communicate 'with' but 'at' and the child of parent's with addiction feel the abandonment that a lack of communication and lack of intimacy brought into their lives.

    The creeping had me completely flummoxed - the first time it is mentioned is when the smell creeps - I realized that my image of creeping is like a small child on all fours - till I further thought how at night when you get up to check on something in the dark you creep along half afraid, not wanting anyone to see you and also, not wanting to walk into a piece of furniture or a wall. I can also imagine women who ran away from home creeping quietly till they were safely out sight and ear shot.

    Then I thought of all those vines and trandrils on the wallpaper as creeping around her as the grew. Or the creeping feeling of gradually realizing you are trapped in this power-over cycle where you are judged, criticized, trivialized, feelings and needs discounted, your actual perceptions are denied and distorted as being wrong, intimacy is withheld, attention and empathy for your feelings and experiences is withheld, you are given orders gently or while trivializing any objections, you are ignored by being forgotten while what is important to the abuser is given first priority, your views are countered if they differ from what the power accepts, leaving you with only the choice to argue with no possibility of discussion, your reality is denied, disparaging or crass remarks are made at your expense with wit and style, you are accused of not cooperating, and blamed for not meeting the expectations of the powerful ones who are called normal.

    Now we have the writer using typical abusive tactics as a means to protect herself by blocking communication, withholding information, undermining any intimacy by sabotaging or covering and hiding her actions and thoughts.

    Creeping is certainly an expressive word but to me it is simply painting desperation.

    I am still facinated with how easy it is to feel ownership when we identify with a story or character and the fine line that keeps us from being obsessed so that like this women, we do not personify the story with our own details or ending - or try to imagine the solutions for the character - or our own solutions as being extracted from the character's behavior.

    Talk about the razor's edge - it is too easy to have compassion or not for this character if we identify with her situation, expecting her to behave as we think she should or, what she should do if we want her to save herself from her spiral into madness.

    I remember as a child having a book called something like "What Happened Then" which continued childhood stories as the author determined - I remember re-writing so many stories in my head as the characters brought love or happiness into their lives because they did this or that differently then what the author wrote.

    Hehehehe "fixing" the author and the story so the characters were whole and happy -- or imagining how the characters could "fix" themselves if only...

    Certainly if the characters would fix themselves we wouldn't have to put up with the knot in our tummys...

    Recently there was a book, the name escapes me, that was all about how we should have compassion for the Wicked Witch of the West as the author wrote a fantacy about the Witch's childhood. Is this what we all do when we identify with a story or character I wonder...

    I like Marvelle's thought, to watch the storyline to see if we are actually seeing a turn-on-your-head set of circumstances where what seems mad is really her way of opening a crack to her own sanity, since madness here started with her not acting or feeling "normal?!?" - as if following the normal is really the madness and abnormal thoughts and behavior is in reality the road to her health.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 07:25 pm
    I think it's so interesting to see the different interpretations and reactions to this one very short story. Barbara says the narrator has already gone mad when she withholds a secret from the paper on which she's writing. Since she won't let anyone else see what she's writing, what audience does she have but herself? Is she trying to keep secrets from herself in her madness? What's Gilman talking about here? She was a published author when she wrote this story. Is there anything here that says the narrator was? Did Gilman put too much of herself into her character here?

    I believe this woman has been flitting in and out of madness from the minute she walked into the room with the yellow wallpaper. I see her as mentioning "creeping" on Page 7 when she talks about a woman creeping behind the wallpaper. As I said, the smooch on the wall near the mopboard gives this reader a clue as to what the word "creeping" means. Barbara thinks something else. Someone else may have a different idea. The differences don't matter; I think we all agree she's not sane.

    How can anyone possibly identify with this character, in the first place, and "take ownership" of the story unless she has been through the same or a very similar thing? I've never known anyone in my life who did, or even came close. I doubt very much if there is anyone here who has. I'd like to read Gilman's diary to see how close she herself came to the fate she gave this poor, sick woman. Did she do everything she has the character do, or was this written for effect to move Weir Mitchell?

    I don't think anyone "wins" in this story. Dr. Weir Mitchell's treatment fails. John certainly didn't expect what happens to his wife. There is not the slightest hopeful sign of sanity that I can see, so the narrator loses.

    In this story where nobody wins, who is at fault? Charlotte Perkins Gilman says it's Dr. Weir Mitchell and that this is the reason why she wrote the story. Do you believe what she says?

    Mal

    Faithr
    November 10, 2003 - 09:00 pm
    Of course my experience was not as severe as the Narrator's, however while I was in the pyschiatric unit I saw some of the patients go in and out of psychosis. Mal too has seen this in her life. I believe some of the patients were at times totally unaware of the reality that I was in. I did have true empathy for some of these men and women.

    At that time I would have done anything to stay there just so I would not have to go home where I was so unhappy. I was not forced into treatment after the first 72 hours. I signed the papers. This was not the bedlam of england either. However, it was a bad choice and today with a long look backward I so where my bad choices started very young which brought me to that hospital in the first place. I have for years accepted my own responsibility for my life and never could have remained sober for 20 and more years if I had not. I no longer play the blame game.

    It was difficult for me the first few weeks but after I lost my memory of "before the treatments" I was wandering around that place like I was in my own seperate universe too. Now I did not know that at the time. I was home for over six months before I began getting recall of my life. I did not ever lose my memory of life and time before the Second World War, which was the year I got married too.

    I think the author may never have gone through all the stages of the personality split she is describing but surely she learned more about it than the credentialed psychiatrist who treated her did. So she too must have filed in her mind what was going on around her. She is surely a sensitive woman and she is an eloquent writer. As Mal said, I believe she wrote this story for the reasons she stated.

    In my opinion the author is describing a woman who was very ill even as they entered the great hall where she was meant to rest and recuperate. Her deteriorating ability to grasp reality, her total break is described so well that I find myself admiring this author more and more. faith

    Deems
    November 10, 2003 - 09:19 pm
    I have a book at work that I can type some passages from but not until Wednesday since I won't be going in tomorrow. It is another of Gilman's comments on her own breakdown and I think will help to throw some more light on this story.

    I don't find the end without hope but rather open-ended. The story ends with a mad woman creeping, but we don't know what happens next. There is nothing to tell us whether the narrator got better or not. Isn't there some hope, however, in the fact that she has escaped in some manner? Sometimes, I speculate, madness, especially if temporary, is a refuge.

    Faithr
    November 10, 2003 - 09:26 pm
    Maryal that is so true, madness is an escape. One time in group therapy I was in the Facilitator said that to we patients, that we had chosen our "escape" from what ever it was that was causing unresolved conflicts in us. Often these conflicts are between the self and the other. (who are we speaking to in our mind, the ego to the superego which is sometimes shouting back telling- us what we have to do , should do, must do)Of course in the story we must decide for ourselves who is speaking at any one line. It is truly a good read. Faith

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2003 - 09:46 pm
    Temporary madness when caused by alcohol can be a refuge. The bottle itself is a refuge, a place to hide certain feelings or let others out, as the case may be and put responsibility for the madness on the drug.

    Madness caused by illness is no refuge, as I have witnessed it. It very often is a place of great pain and torment and one the victim wants to escape.

    MARYAL, you have used the word "escape" in relation to the narrator. Escape from what? From the hallucinations she had been having? One hallucination can bring on another, as detailed in this story. One obsession when relieved has its place taken by another until sanity is returned.

    Escape from oppression? Do you not think the illness itself was a terrible oppression? Page after page we see this woman get worse, not better; oppressed by her illness.

    If Gilman was describing her own experience even in just a partial way, she is describing great pain, not relief. She is describing being trapped in a sick mind with nowhere to go except round and round and round with no exit for escape at all.

    She has told us in "Why I Wrote the Yellow Wallpaper" that she wrote it to save people from going crazy in the way she did because of medical treatment prescribed by Weir Mitchell. This does not sound like a refuge in madness to me. To me it sounds as if she was going deeper and deeper into the hell of madness until somehow she stopped Weir Mitchell's treatment.

    There is no way of knowing what would happen to the woman in the story, but in real life when someone is in a prolonged psychotic episode and cannot be pulled out of it or come out of it by himself or herself, that person is hospitalized. It seems to me that any M.D., including her husband, would immediately hospitalize this woman if she's in the condition that's described near and at the end of the story.

    I suppose you could say that being in a locked hospital ward, perhaps put alone in a padded cell-like room so you won't hurt yourself, is escape from being in the room with the Yellow Wallpaper, couldn't you?

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    November 10, 2003 - 10:19 pm
    Wow what a pile of posts here.

    I am at Ruths using her PC.

    What was the woman doing crawling round the room. I am inclined to agree with the person who said she had peeled the rest of the paper off. When she says she sees yellow on John I believe that it is an illusion. She is so fixated on the yellow wallpaper she sees shades of it everywhere.

    Mental illness is not an escape its a hell that you want to escape from as someone said and I agree that alcoholism and drug abuse IS an escape from the world. However in saying this it is common for patients to take drugs and alcohol to try and blot out the torment they are in from their mental illness.

    Sorry I don't have time to write more but I am going to try and catch up on everything while I have the opportunity. I may have my PC problems sorted before the next week is out. I hope I do!

    Carolyn

    anneofavonlea
    November 10, 2003 - 11:35 pm
    even people who have experienced some degree of mental illness proffering different views.

    What amazes me most about people like, Faith, Malryn and Kiwi is their honesty. I have trouble even looking at this in others. least of all myself.

    The over use of the creeping word, is creepy for me in itself, as it seems to me that creeping means slow inevitable movement towards a place I never want to be.This story continues to ruffle my feathers, or at least our close look at it does. Last night I had a dreadful dream in which I was caught in that awful place between wallpaper and wall.

    As for the question of where this story turns,for me it is when she claims to have found something out.I dont want to know what she discovered, for me in this instance ignorance is indeed bliss.How narrow is this line between reality and fantasy? Way too narrow for comfort, I am afraid.

    Anneo

    Ginny
    November 11, 2003 - 07:42 am
    Carolyn!! I am sooo glad to see you here this morning and hear your views and Anneo and Barbara, Malryn, Faith and Maryal, am looking forward to what you bring!

    And this morning I have something to bring also, as I told you all, a brand new book is out on Yellow and I had ordered it but they said it would not come, but it did, last night, and of course I don't have time to read it, wish I did, before the discussion is over, but a couple of things really jumped out at me. It's called The Pedagogical Wallpaper: Teaching Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper," and is by Jeffrey Andrew Weinstock of Central Michigan University (I had to laugh when I saw that Michigan, Maryal after your remark yesterday hahaahha!) who teaches Wallpaper to University classes just like our Maryal does.

    The book is intended FOR teachers which of course I am not, but it talks about a lot of the problems that people have trying to look at a work of literature and one especially helpful chapter is written by Paul Reifenheiser of Florida State, and addresses one of the greatest fallacies or burdens as he calls it, is the notion of what the "Author Intended, " or "Author Intent."

    Now you'd THINK that if the author said I intended XXX then XXX would be the result and you should therefore look at the piece with that in mind, but we found out with Christina Schwarz she intended one thing and the reader made it another, which surprised her?

    Weinstock says
    The notion that an author controls all forms of interpretation through his or her stated intentions represents the first shackle from which students must gain freedom. A common misconception holds that comparing the work to the intent of its author remains the best way to determine the value of a story. When "other" interpretations seem to go "too far," some students make statements like, "I don't think the author meant that when she wrote this," or "Gilman couldn't have possibly meant for this story to be read with homosexual undertones."


    Reifenheiser delineates how the reader should not be bound, and cites Wimsatt and Beardsley's essay "The Intentional Fallacy." I had never heard of it, let's hear a bit more:

    Reifenheiser says flatly that what matters is what you, the Reader think. In fact, he goes so far as to boldly say it's the reader who makes the book come alive again and again

    So let me put here a few of his remarks, because he says The Yellow Wallpaper is a perfect example of why you should NOT be "bound" by "Authorial Intention."

    Or critics, (or teachers) for that matter, and he feels so strongly about it he titles the chapter INTERPRETIVE BONDAGE.

    Students in introductory college literature courses often feel as trapped as the narrator of Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper." Some undergraduates have internalized the idea that a text has "one" meaning and that determining authorial intention provides the best method for its discovery. Others realize the problems with authorial intention but leave the "correct" interpretations to critics, scholars and their teachers. Either way, numerous students find themselves surrounded by the idea of others, and forget to look within themselves and …the community [of the group] for possible interpretation.

    To free students from this interpretative prison, a teacher must disabuse them of the fallacious notion that stories have only one meaning.
    He then goes on several pages, explaining how Gilman's own TWO statements on why she wrote the piece, which are not the same, given in 1913 and in 1935, respectively, 15 and nearly 40 years after the piece was written, may, in fact, be untrue and that she might have been shielding another purpose, and perhaps even exaggerating and fabricating the response from the medical community. In fact at one point he points out that:


    We simply don't know if her stated intentions were truthful or altered. Gilman's' letters and discussions of her story remains as open to interpretation as the story itself. While her stated intentions may offer some insight, they simply cannot work as a vehicle for finding the "one" meaning of the story. Gilman's stated intention also severely limits the text. ..to read it as [only a criticism of a rest cure] is to "efface the story's imaginative power, so that it becomes almost the kind of rational document that the husband himself could commend."


    It's a long chapter but he ends it with these thoughts, and although we are not students in a class we're students throughout life who never give up learning, so here's another point of view which I think we should take seriously:

    When students strip away the oppressive authority of the author, critic and teacher, they act in the same capacity as the narrator as she tears down the wallpaper. Giving students equal access to a text encourages them to invest more time in reading the story for their own interpretations rather than trying to determine the "correct "reading. …Students [must] understand the value of authorial intentions and published critical opinions but not at the expense of their own ideas. [They] then realize that their own critiques are one of many plausible interpretations. Thus, they must respect the ideas of others just as they expect that same consideration. Gilman's "The Yellow Wall-paper" helps introduce and establish this productive community, especially for those….with little experience with literary theory.


    SO in essence let's hear every critical voice, let's take the author's stated "intent" as possible augmentations of interest, and let's make our OWN conclusions and have our OWN theories, let's throw off the shackles and tear down the wallpaper and think for ourselves: it's OK!!

    It's more than OK that's what we DO here?

    Now on to what Dr. Reifenheiser says is the most important thing of all: YOUR interpretations, and I see some VERY fine ones here in the last few days!

    Ginny
    November 11, 2003 - 09:40 am
    Ah to get to YOUR own points is like a dessert after a 10 course meal: the icing on the cake!br>
    Marvelle on the patriarchal authority, I like that. OH and thank you for the "Romanesque," I did wonder what that meant!! And I also like your interpretation of the "sticketh closer than a brother," it all seems to fit. In skimming the chapters of my new book I am intrigued by the one on "homosexuality" in the piece, but I did not see any, I may read that one to see what his idea is there. I liked your answers to the questions based on your own interpretation of female rebellion and patriarchy, very much, thank you!

    And when I get finished with all of your thoughts (so varied, so fine) I am excited about going to the site you provided of literary devices and stabbing it and trying to see if it's there: a new Parlor Game!!

    Anneo, hahaha fascinated with wallpaper, are you? Hahahaha

    So you see John as simply going along and you don't see him as oppressive, then? Or do you?,br>
    Oh amazing on your visit to your depressed friend, I'm glad that the story is a help!

    Marvelle, thank you for the Archimedes Palimpsest, I absolutely LOVE palimpsests, and here's one of my favorites: I originally put this in Seven Sisters, but it's rare enough that it bears repeating, you don't see it everywhere: now this is Cicero scraped off and St. Augustine put over, you can only see the one under ultraviolet light and the other under…er…infrared or something , I can't remember, but ONLY under those lights can you see the writing. As we recall, these were done on parchment, animal skin and so could be scraped off. (And not only the works of the pagans were scraped, sometimes the monks found themselves scraping off religious works simply because there was no paper available). I love palimpsests and I also liked your comparing it to the story, and the narrator and the wallpaper!

    Cheryl your innocent question on the yellow has sent me off on tangents! Hahahaha I love everybody's response here to the various yellows, the Sulfur of Hell (Malryn, thank you) yellow is also the color of fire, and I liked Cheryl's take on the Narrator's being TRAPPED.

    PHYLL you nut, oui oui I think I know what you said, if not Fairwinds will straighten us up! hahahaha

    Malryn very good point on the Narrator's jealousy, that's another way of looking at it, it also blends in with her paranoia!

    Thank you Traude, I read the same way.

    Oh good point Barb on Yellow Journalism!!!!! Yellow flag for quarantine!! Yellow cross. WELL DONE ON THE CONFESSORS, who knew, thank you for that!!!!!!!!

    I agree totally with you Horselover, we ARE getting such a body of excellent information and theories here, it's incredible!

    Let me pause and thank Pat Westerdale for inserting the two Cornell illustrations into not only the heading but also the HTML pages with credits, many thanks, Pat@

    I appreciate all the takes on SMOOCH and Malryn on the eyes being symbols of the beholder, do paranoid people often think others are "looking" at them?

    Mountain Rose, I do like your take on the conflicting roles society wants her to assume, and you see her "wallowing" in it, very interesting, do you find her manipulative of US?

    I agree with you on the confusing ness of the story, even Weinstock refers to it as a "difficult text," I myself am quite confused at this point because I myself have so many theories, so it's a fun thing to read what you all are getting out of it!

    Horselover, this is very interesting I think it's interesting that the narrator has finally achieved what some theories hold is the unconscious purpose of a psychosis--the blocking out of an intolerable reality. I am not sure what you mean! So she has succeeded in forgetting her former "miserable life," in favor of "watching this new existence unfold." I really like the way you put that, in essence she has…is this similar to writing a book where the author loses self in the writing?

    Phyll, I agree on the deftness, OH lookit you on the never moving MEN what can that MEAN??

    And you're RIGHT, she does become suspicious of John and Jennie and even angry at them. AND what of the baby, you are absolutely right!

    Carolyn, I sure am glad you are back!

    Phyll, we need to have this in the heading, it speaks to the Ethical Fiction thing:
    Was John so confident of his method of treatment that it has taken him until too late to realize that it isn't working? Or is he gauging how well it is working? Is he concerned for her mental health or smugly satisfied?


    Faith, I agree we suffer real empathy for the Narrator, now do YOU see any evidence that she may, in fact, be manipulating us at all?

    Scrawler, I agree with you, we're getting somewhere but I don't know WHERE ! hahaahha Now what do you see wrong in how Jennie and John treat her? (By the way, Weir's instructions for her "cure," printed earlier, said don't let the baby leave your side, how can this be a condemnation of him when she is NOT following his methods, not at all?

    Oh good point Scrawler on her getting excited only about the negative, on seeing negative things as positive, she's the positive negative woman here!

    She's a negative herself as in film negative?

    Marvelle, I, too, am interested in what seems to trigger this woman's instability, and the sudden changes but I can't see any.

    I loved your take on each of the divisions in the story!!

    You say Society is the real antagonist in the piece, I like that. I'm hovering with another one, I'm hovering over herself as the real Antagonist in the piece but I need to work it out more.

    Barbara, I love YOUR moment of no return, I love a discussion where we can have 100 different ideas of the climax, thank you!!

    Can you point to WHAT has caused this climax??

    OH super point on "what law?" What law indeed, up in the heading that goes, too! The laws of Nature? I loved that about reading being a creative act!!!!

    Oh gosh lookit Barbara go: "no sequential law is rational at night but a change is expected during the light of day." Wow!

    Oh wow Marvelle on the creeping being a child like state. Hmmm. Double turning, double double toil and trouble and negatives of film images, what a STORY!!

    Anna, I agree and appreciate your comments, we look forward to more~!!~ Thank you!

    Malryn thank you for the additional words of Charlotte Gilman, isn't it wonderful to have so much richness in a discussion of one short story!, I would never have known half of this reading by myself.

    Babi, good point on the mental condition of the writer and Maryal, loved this: I especially like the way Gilman keeps the focus on the disintegration of the narrator by including only journal entries that are written when the narrator knows she will not be caught. Wonderful point and I wondered myself but thought maybe I had just missed something who Nellie was? And THANK you eternally for finding it on the Cornell site!

    Oh good point Barb on the first mention of creeping being of the smell!! I missed that! I like your points on ownership of an interpretation of the story.

    I liked this that Malryn wrote and it, too, needs to go up in the heading Since she won't let anyone else see what she's writing, what audience does she have but herself? Is she trying to keep secrets from herself in her madness? What's Gilman talking about here? She was a published author when she wrote this story. Is there anything here that says the narrator was? Did Gilman put too much of herself into her character here?

    Faith, I agree about Gilman's skill in writing, and describing her total break, thank you for your own horrific story and thus insightful opinions. Do you feel ANY detachment in Narrator's description of what's going on at all?

    Maryal, can't wait to see what you bring here from Gilman's comments, we need all the help we can get!

    WONDERFUL point on the end, when we get to the final two pages tomorrow, that shall be the first question closely followed by one on John!

    I am really enjoying the dialogue between Maryal and Faith and Malryn on escape!

    Carolyn, yellow on John an illusion, good good point, but then, why would Jennie say it was on his clothes, did Jennie, as somebody else suggested earlier, also not say that? In fact is Narrator making ALL this up? ALL?

    Anneo, right on on the over use of the "creeping" word, as "creepy," good pointl I wonder when "creepy" took on THAT meaning, Maryal will know, she has access to the modern OED.

    Kind of reminds me of the fog creeps in on little cat feet.<br.
    So now Anneo sees the climax in when she says she has found something out, super!

    I agree I don't want to know what she has discovered, I wonder why we don't? Couldn't hurt US could it?

    NOW then, all caught up, if I have missed YOUR wonderful point, just scream and let's hear from all of you on any or all of the questions today, tomorrow, I'm sorry to say, we're off to the last two pages, Pages 11 and 12 for tomorrow!~ But there's a world left in the heading for today, let's hit it, hard!

    ginny

    Ginny
    November 11, 2003 - 09:52 am
    OK!! (If you look at my post in blue above? hahaah All you see is "OH! Oh! Oh," hahahaha that's about how I feel here, o, o, o! Ok I went to the wonderful site Marvellle provided (http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm) and first had to blindly pick a letter, so the cursor with eyes shut picked O and then I scrolled with eyes shut down and blindly stabbed...and.... and got......Rhyme Scheme which i don't think applies here, does it? hmpf.

    SO you get two chances (hahaha making up the rules as I go and we also need a title for it, what should we call it?) so I stabbed again and found....TA DA! IRONY and so that's what I hope to find in this Yellow Wallpaper by the end of the discussion LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT!! (try it, you'll like it) hahaahaha

    Deems
    November 11, 2003 - 10:17 am
    Here's the requested entry from the Oxford English Dictionary (OED)

    CREEPY


    f. CREEP v. or n. + -Y.]


    1. Characterized by creeping or moving slowly.


    1794 SULLIVAN View Nat. II. 95 It is a creepy fluid. 1860 All Year Round No. 49. 538 She is rarely still, though I am bound to say she is creepy gentleness itself. 1889 J. ABERCROMBIE E. Caucasus 180 An artistically embroidered coverlet tenanted..by countless swarms of creepy insects.




    2. Having a creeping of the flesh, or chill shuddering feeling, caused by horror or repugnance.


    1831 Cat's Tail 30, I feel somehow quite creepy at the thought of what's coming. 1863 LD. LYTTON Ring Amasis II. 38 There comes over him, all at once, a sort of cold, creepy shudder. 1882 Macm. Mag. 444 To confess that he has felt ‘creepy’ on account of certain inexplicable sounds.


    b. transf. Tending to produce such sensations.


    1883 G. LLOYD Ebb & Flow II. 236 The whole place seemed lonely, and, as Mildred whispered to Pauline, ‘creepy’. 1892 Spectator 2 Apr. 470/1 A really effective romance of the creepy order.


    I think that "creep" when applied to the woman in the story means to crawl, as in on hands and knees like a young child. The adult woman narrator is crawling around the perimeter of the large room leaving a smooch or smudge in the wallpaper at shoulder level. She has apparently been doing this for some time since early on she mentions the smudge that goes all the way around the room.

    Mal--I was thinking of escape as being possible after the conclusion of the story. Since our narrator has clearly gone over the edge at last, she is no longer capable of putting on the front that she has successfully employed when with John or others up to this point. NOW someone is going to have to do something. She will perhaps be temporarily incarcerated in a hospital. But the problem is now out in the open for all to see. I don't see a positive ending here, but rather a chance for a change in the narrator's life.

    Ginny--Thanks for bringing us some of the points from a book written for teachers who bring this story to class. I agree with what you have excerpted and will add only that once a work of art has escaped from the creator, those who read, view, or listen to it will have varying responses to it. The creator can no longer control what he or she (the artist) meant to do. If the object, the work, points in many other directions for different people, assuming that they are playing fair and not reading in interpretations that are strictly personal, then we must listen and attend.

    I believe that a certain amount of what goes into art is unconscious. Not all of it by any means, but an interesting work will generally have much more in it than the artist "intended."

    I return to one of my favorite quotes. D.H. Lawrence both novelist and critic wrote, "Never trust the teller; trust the tale."

    Tomorrow I will find the comments that Gilman made on her own breakdown. Sorry I don't have the book here at home. (I find that books are always in the wrong place--the ones I need are at the office; others I don't need are here at home. Or vice versa.)

    Maryal

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 10:30 am
    probably suffered from postpartum depression when she came there, and then used that to sink further and further into depression and becomes psychotic, in order to escape whatever conflicts she could not face. I've done a little of that myself in my life, and it's called the "poor me" attitude. Once the chemicals are triggered in the body, they affect the mind more and more. That's why positive thinking and staying busy is so important. And since she did have access to the garden, why didn't she walk or go smell the roses or watch the birds or the weather? Instead she focuses on that ugly wallpaper and it consumes her. I guess if I had the choice between the wallpaper and roses, I'd pick the roses, and I don't have a whole lot of patience for her picking the wallpaper. We all have choices, even when we are ill. (And as I said, I did the same sort of thing at one point in my life, and I'm just as impatient with myself over that in retrospect.)

    I think every human focuses inward to an extent when we are ill. It's normal and natural. But at some point it has to stop, and to get well we have to begin focusing outward again, forcefully, if it doesn't come naturally, and MAKE ourselves do that which we don't want to do, and she doesn't do that. It's been proven that positive thinking and forcefully making yourself do something you don't want to do changes the chemistry in the brain, and healthy people have always suspected that, I think. In other words, when you smile even though you may not feel like it, pretty soon you feel like smiling. She CHOOSES not to do that.

    The story is also confusing. I'm not sure if the author was just sloppy, if she wrote it and wasn't as well as everyone else seems to think she was, or whether it was just another self-destructive/indulgent motive, or what exactly her purpose was, if any. I'm still puzzled about why there is no answer to John insisting they share that particular room, why the bed was nailed down (what does that symbolize? the marital relationship is nailed down? no escape?, in her mind? by his order?), why the rings in the wall, why the smooch at shoulder height around the room, even when they first get there? Was there another woman trapped in that room at one time, and with her sensitivities she picked up on that and subsequently became that woman? The whole description of the room does not sound like a nursery to me, but like the room had been used in the past as an insane asylum of some kind. And none of those questions are ever answered and the author doesn't even give clues about them. That's why I think the story wasn't written to teach anyone anything. In a way it's another self-indulgent descent into reliving her paranoia without giving us any explanation. I think she misses it, and I don't think any of those descriptions would be there if she really had wanted to teach anyone what Weir's methods were destructive.

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 10:55 am
    even though most here seems to think differently. Her purposes for the story is muddled and I think she's just reliving that descent into madness because she sort of misses it, plus it makes a damned good story, especially for women of her time. In the end the author commits suicide, so I don't think she ever did beat her negative obsessive thinking patterns.

    Here is also a URL that gives a short description of her life: http://gilman.thefreelibrary.com/ Apparently she designed greeting cards, which means she must have had some artistic bent. So why was she not out drawing the roses in the garden? I still think it's because she focused inward in a destructive self-indulgent way, instead of outward to see what positive things she could do even within all the restrictions of her life. All of us have restrictions (whether it's physical, monitary, mental, spacial, social), and that means men have them too, and we all still have to try to live as positive a life as we can within those limitations---if we want to stay mentally healthy. But this woman blames it all on her restrictions and never acknowledges that part of her madness is of her own doing.

    This is one of the very reasons why I get exasperated also with feminism. In order to become really free human beings, women not only have to understand why we are the way we are (our own psychology and physiology)and discard what is no longer useful, but also not allow others to turn us into victims. The feminism of today has done exactly the opposite by not putting the blame where it lies---in ourselves.

    Deems
    November 11, 2003 - 11:16 am
    Mountain Rose--I disagree with your statement that the author was not well. Identifying the author with a first-person narrator can lead to this conclusion, and I can see that it is difficult to separate the two in this story.

    However, we do not identify Mark Twain with his first-person narrator, Huck Finn.

    We do not identify Edgar Allen Poe with his homicidal first-person narrators.

    When a writer uses the first person, the created character is just that, a character. Of course Point of View must be considered. There is much that is not in this short story because we don't have John's point of view or Jennie's or anyone else's for that matter. We know what little we can determine of these other characters only as they are filtered through the consciousness of the first-person narrator, an admittedly unreliable and deteriorating woman, and thus unreliable.

    Maryal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 11:25 am
    First of all, I'd like to say here that I was kidding in one way when I said if I'd known I was ripping off a palimpset I'd have watched what I was doing when I yanked, gouged and chipped the six layers of wallpaper off those bedroom walls years ago, and I was not kidding in another. Do you realize that on each layer of wallpaper there was a pattern? If it had been possible to do, which it wasn't, when I stripped the first layer off, I'd have seen another pattern; then another and on and on until I was at the last one. In other words, it was a wallpaper palimpset, such as is still found in many old houses.

    This goes along with what I thought the other day when MARVELLE said GINNY's questions are layered, and people have talked about the layers in a story or a book. "Just like a club sandwich," I thought. Here's the bread with a layer of mayonnaise on it; here's the turkey. Here's another piece of bread. Here's the bacon. Here's another piece of bread with the tomato. When the heck am I going to find the lettuce? And it all ends with another piece of bread.

    I see all of that in interpretations I read here. Let's say the bread is Gilman's stated intention, repeated several times over. The turkey is the "Androcentric Culture, or the Man-Made World", she talked about later, the patriarchate she talked about that diminished women. The bacon is men. The tomato is Society's role in subjugating women, and the limp lettuce is what's left of the women themselves after all these factors get through stepping on them. Why, by golly, it's a Feminist's lunch!

    I certainly see every reason why Feminists have latched onto this story. It's a perfect example of what they've been trying to tell the world for years.

    Way, way back in this discussion I suggested that "The Yellow Wallpaper is a Social commentary", and I still believe that to be true. In point of fact, I don't really see much of any disagreement here at all.

    If I say the mental illness described is the main reason for the story it is because I understand Charlotte Perkins Gilman's fury with Dr. Weir Mitchell. I lived that fury when it came to attitudes and treatment by medical doctors of my son, whose accident-caused mental illness has most certainly been affected by what Society thinks about mental illness. What Society thinks affects men as well as women, just as Weir Mitchell's "Rest Cure" did. I hope everyone in the world realizes this.

    I accept all of your ideas. They're part of this Club Sandwich. I do not claim "ownership" of this story. How could I? Though I do wish I'd written it.

    I don't know who Jeffrey Andrew Weinstock of Central Michigan University is, but I'll say that nothing GINNY says he talks about in his book is new. The idea that the reader writes the book is not a new idea. I've had readers tell me many, many things about stories and novels I've written that are far away from what I intended, and I've said the same thing about books I've edited for somebody else's fortunate publication, and I know from personal experience that it's true.

    Nor is the case made that there is homosexuality in "The Yellow Wallpaper" anything new. There are papers about that very thing on the web. I say why shouldn't there be hints of homosexuality in this story? Charlotte Perkins Gilman had more unsuccessful and emotionally demanding affairs with women than she did men.

    In point of fact (and I see that Mountain Rose has mentioned it) Charlotte Perkins Gilman had a life's history of emotional and mental instability and illness, enough so that it affected everything she wrote, including "The Yellow Wallpaper". In my opinion, she was an unreliable narrator as a writer who created another unreliable narrator in this story.

    So whom do we believe? I'll say I believe all of us in this discussion and believe that Gilman knew what she was talking about when she wrote (and imagined) the fictionalized mental illness we see here.

    Mal

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 11:30 am
    . . . because I believe even though the author wrote about a "character" that she put much of her own experience into that "character" and so in a way they do become one. Most authors do that to some extent until the character takes on a life of its own. But I think in this particular story it is difficult to separate the character from the author. And if the author was well, why leave all the questions hanging? From a wellness point I think the story would have been written in a totally different way. JMO

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 11:50 am
    years ago there was a fascinating play that went on in L.A. The whole thing was done in an old mansion instead of on a stage, and all the plots went on simultaneously. The audiences were small by necessity, but what you did after you bought a ticket was follow ONE character around the house and see things from his/her partiucular point of view. The next time you went you followed another character around the house and saw that particular point of view, and when those two characters intersected, you now had BOTH points of view, etc. It was surprising what happened when you had ALL the points of view. Some people went to see the play 26 or more times because I think that's how many characters there were. I imagine it's like hearing a story from the wife of a couple who is getting divorced. You hear her side and are very sympathetic, and then you meet the husband and hear his side and sympathize, and maybe even see where their problems might lie. Next you hear one of the kids, and you see a totally different point of view. If they have more than one child you'll get a different point of view from each child.

    Well, if this story were made into a play like that, we could follow the main character as she descends into madness and probably sympathize (or NOT), and also follow Jenny and her reactions and John and his reactions to what is happening and get their point of view. Maybe even follow Dr. Weir around for a while. It would be interesting to see that, and maybe more complete for me. As it is, the story leaves me irritable and I just want to say, "For heaven's sake, find something other than that ugly paper to focus on."

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 11, 2003 - 11:55 am
    Wow for such a little story Ginny you have gone beyond the pale in finding resources that help us with all literature - sounds like you are saying don't try to mind-read the author and justify it with knowledge about the author other then what is written in the story. I think the challange today is many of these stories are written when words were in vogue with meanings understood in their day that are not in vogue today and we do not get the same inflection or intent.

    It was a great help to see my thoughts deluted - because now I see I have been focused on what that thin edge that turns a nervous breakdown into madness or how an obsession can get out of control and we can become mad - these thoughts are subsequent to my analysis of seeing the story as a women's decent into madness in which she unleaches a freedom within her madness that she is unable to unleach in the light of day.

    Onward to pages 9 AND 10 --

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 12:02 pm
    . . . feminist lunch, and your description of the sandwich is very clever. Also, your statement of: "I certainly see every reason why Feminists have latched onto this story. It's a perfect example of what they've been trying to tell the world for years." is also very true. I can see that too.

    But maybe that's why I'm so impatient with this story. It was fine for its time and place. Since then we have learned a whole lot about women and their needs, we have pretty much achieved enough freedom (especially with birth control and financially) where now we MUST GO ON. No more blaming men or society or anything else. We have enough control not to allow this sort of thing to happen to us anymore. Appreciating what those who fought for those freedoms is one thing, but regressing into this sort of "poor me" seems like utter futility to me.

    But that may just be my particular personality quirk. I do have this habit of not looking back in PERSONAL ways once I learned my lesson, and I don't look at the future. I am only interested in the NOW and what I can do NOW to live in a positive way under whatever circumstances I'm in. And that may be my unique problem with this particular story. I see it as playing the helpless victim instead of taking control of that which she could have had control over.

    Deems
    November 11, 2003 - 12:20 pm
    Mal--I wish I had written the story too. With a more modern setting and a different setting, since as MountainRose points out, this is very much a piece of the late nineteenth century and not our own.

    Whatever way you read it, this story certainly does Provoke readers.

    Faithr
    November 11, 2003 - 12:24 pm
    I do not know if manipulate is the right word at all for the feelings the Author stirs up in me with her "Narrator". Creates is more like it, feelings of fear, anger, and empathy for her suffering.

    I found myself hating the Dr. who told her and her husband all the opposite and wrong things to assist her in getting over her postpartum depression. Instead she steadily slipped into a loss of her person into madness and we are left to wonder if she can come back under the treatment she is receiving. Today she would be ok with a few weeks of anti psychotic drugs. Proper care brings most postpartum patients normal functioning within a year or so.

    I must add that I do not confuse the author with the narrator even though of course the author had her own suffering but she did not as far as I can tell have a total break with reality. She certainly understood about repressed homosexuality and it shows in the Narrators story not as a particular repression..but as generalized repression of her wants and needs by society medical practice and husband. No wonder the Narrator went into real psychosis. Faith

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 11, 2003 - 12:36 pm
    Yep MountainRose she appears to be helpless but is she playing --

    I guess the old saying until you walk in the shoes of...in that not everyone shares each of our strengths and weaknesses so that what we each would do differently, another may not have the knowledge, ability, emotional copacity to accomplish -

    We can put ourselves in the circumstances of a character in a book and imagine how we would handle those circumstances or we can take as gospel that is the only way that character could handle the circumstance unless, the author gives us a clue that the character has a choice - this character so far has not had another choice outlined or hinted at for her by the author and so we can either have compassion or examine her circumstances and look within ourselves to see if we have had any time when we matched those circumstances - if not - it is hard to really understand her - if so - the memory may be too painful to even bring to our consciousness - or it may be something seared in our consciousness - in either case, then we are uncomfortable with her displaying what we know could have been our own story; and if this is your story, then I would think it not only brings it all back but hopefully it does prompt you to remember how you got your life back after your ordeal so that we are all living in the now that MountainRose you are more comfortable.

    Mental decline can be physical that no amount of talk therapy will fix without proper medication or, it can be emotional, usually as a result of control or learned helplessness - for a women she is often tought learned helplessness living in a abusive home as a child - but then the experiences and reasons can go on and on -

    There are several in this conversation who have shared their story and each story is different - For me the sin is not going mad or behaving within a paradigm of helplessness but not being proud of the work you did to get well along with sharing your wellness, not necessarily the work but the result of that work, rather then dwelling on the illness recreating that neediness. And that is what I have heard for the most part here - how they got well.

    ALF
    November 11, 2003 - 12:42 pm
    This is literature at its finest. A short story that can elicit such impressive posts and heart-felt passions as we've read here should be held in the highest regard. I personally don't care WHAT specific it was that the author wanted to impart because she succeded in winning us all over. I've always believed that the reader should be able to make their own determination about a story or an account without reproach or fear of offending an author. I don't really care what it is the author is trying to say, I care about my thoughts when I absorb the tale. That christopher Morley saying keeps playing on and on in my mind.

    "When you sell a man a book, you don't sell him 12 ounces of paper and ink and glue-- you sell him a whole new life."

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 12:43 pm
    MOUNTAIN ROSE, I understand what you're talking about, though I do have respect for the author of this story because she had the courage to write about severe mental illness in a way that is disturbing even today. Anneo's comments about how creepy thoughts about the described illness in "The Yellow Wallpaper" make her feel are important, I think. People shy away from what makes them uncomfortable. The world needs to be educated about mental illness, even if that is the effect.

    I most certainly am a Feminist, but I'm not going to throw out half the population because somebody thinks, "They done me wrong." Who done you wrong? Was it men, or was it you by giving them permission to do whatever they did to you? That can be a very disturbing question.

    My thinking about women did a complete turn-around in the 60's when I first found Simone de Beauvoir and Germaine Greer and went on to what other Feminists wrote and said.

    I had actually been preparing for this at the women's college I attended from 1946 to 1950, which was rampant with angora sweatered, pearls and blue jeans clad, budding young Feminists and independent-minded women teachers who cheered us along. The unique idea of women wearing what then were called "dungarees" at Smith made the cover of Life Magazine with a picture of an activist young woman I knew very well and hung out with on its cover.

    I bought a copy of the first issue of Ms Magazine and subscribed to it in the early 70's. My brush with Feminism brought many changes to me in the first half of that decade, including the end of my marriage and my going off alone to face a tough man's world in 1975.

    It's hard for me to believe that there are women who are only now going through what I did all those years ago, and to realize that there are today young women who have been raised with all the "this-is-your-place-stay-in-it" trappings that were so prevalent in the 30's and 40's.

    I want to say to these people, "Stop bitching about your plight and the men who caused it, from the first parental patriarchal abuse, if that's what woke you up, to the latest boyfriend whom you allowed to push you around. Shut off your computer; put your pen down and your power where your mouth is, and go out and do something about it. Take responsibility for yourself and your life. Go out in that world and get yourself a job so you can support yourself, then come tell me how you feel as a whole, complete, independent woman."

    Mal

    Marvelle
    November 11, 2003 - 01:26 pm
    Wow! We've been generously given a taste of graduate literature from Professor Maryal and Ginny and the D.H. Lawrence quote "Never trust the teller, trust the tale." This is great.

    I've printed out both Ginny's and Maryal's posts and underlined bits and pieces including how once the work leaves the author's hands, the author is no longer able to control what he or she meant to do.

    Maryal: "If the object, the work, points in many other directions for different people, assuming that they are playing fair and not reading in interpretations that are strictly personal, then we must listen and attend."

    I'm learning so much from everyone.

    Barbara mentions learning about her thoughts by reading Ginny's distillation of her (Barbara's) posts. Hahahaha, me too Barbara. I always look for Ginny's comments as they help me understand what it is I said/thought! Ginny has a knack for getting to the heart of our posts.

    I too noticed, Ginny, that Gilman uses numerous literary devices in her story -- a surprising amount for such a short tale. And I didn't see -- just as you, Ginny, didn't see -- any homosexual element in the story which was mentioned in an essay. Perhaps it's there but I can't see it.

    I'm typing this message on my work break and will try to get back soon to ponder the heading questions and all the posts.

    Marvelle

    BaBi
    November 11, 2003 - 02:14 pm
    Ah, Malryn, what a different world your college was. I attended a local college; one year on campus. My roommate and I would run all over campus on weekends, until our dorm mother put a stop to it, on the grounds that is wasn't 'ladylike'. Now, I can hardly believe it happened. I would be in much better shape today if I had continued running for the next 50 years. Back then, however, I would not have dreamed of defying 'authority'. I hope I have achieved a better balance by now. ...Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 02:42 pm
    Below is a quote from and a link to an article about "The Yellow Wallpaper" by Robert W. Anderson, a homosexual. In this article you'll also find some interesting ideas about Michel Foucault and the Panoptican, as built by Jeremy Benthem, which I mentioned before in this discussion. Anderson states that Foucault was a homosexual who was into sado-masochism or "leather sex". The Panoptican was a device which allowed people to watch other people without their knowing it, especially people in prison, and has been related to the eyes in the yellow wallpaper.
    “ 'And it is like a woman stopping down and creeping about behind that pattern. I don’t like it a bit. I wonder– I begin to think– I wish John would take me away from here!' (Gilman 293). Probably the standard reading of the line, “I don’t like it a bit,” is that the narrator dislikes the woman behind the pattern creeping. However, another interpretation, a queer one, of the line could be that she doesn’t “like it a bit,” but, Crewe suggests, that she likes “it far too much” (280). This is what frightens the narrator, this realization of the homoerotic, and she wishes her husband would take her away from this temptation. Another homoerotic element in the story is when, on her last night in the room, “Jennie wanted to sleep with me– the sly thing!” (Gilman 298). Of course, once again, a heterosexual reading of this line would not imply any homoeroticism in the situation. However, the narrator’s appending of 'the sly thing' indicates to me, as a queer reader, that the narrator believed there to be more than simply Jennie’s sleeping in the same room to comfort her. The narrator, once again, refuses to accept the homoerotic temptation and tells Jennie 'I should undoubtedly rest better for a night all alone' (Gilman 298), although at this point, we as readers know that the narrator is anything but alone.

    “ 'That was clever, for I wasn’t alone a bit! As soon as it was moonlight and that poor thing began to crawl and shake the pattern, I got up and ran to help her' (Gilman 298). Then the pair of them shake and pull at the wallpaper, alternating who’s doing the shaking and who’s doing the pulling, essentially becoming same-sex partners in a very physical act of destruction which has some undeniable homoerotic elements to it. Crewe writes that 'every denial or ‘clever’ ruse on the part of the narrator thus backfires, the implications betraying themselves in an ‘interior’ scenario of sexual bondage and same-sex object-choice.' ” (281).

    Source:

    Homosexuality in The Yellow Wallpaper

    or As a pdf article

    anneofavonlea
    November 11, 2003 - 02:43 pm
    for the creepy definition, I take 2 of course.

    I LOVE the Weinstock view Ginny, as I always am intimidated by the view of those who obviously know more about the language than I.It is good to be told its okay to see things differently.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 02:54 pm
    BABI, why was my college different? With Amherst College and the University of Massachusetts very near; Williams College only a short ride away, and Yale not too far, either, there were men on campus all the time. We had hour restrictions when it came to being away from the campus in the evenings, later sign-in times on weekends. There really was a lot of freedom, and most of us knew ways to get around the rules. Weekends many of us took overnights and left for the colleges and universities I mentioned, as well as Harvard, MIT, and Brown University in Providence, which was my particular favorite haunt.

    Mal

    anneofavonlea
    November 11, 2003 - 03:05 pm
    You were there, sorry, couldn't resist.

    Phyll
    November 11, 2003 - 03:27 pm
    "Escape from oppression? Do you not think the illness itself was a terrible oppression? Page after page we see this woman get worse, not better; oppressed by her illness."

    But I interpret it differently. (Ah, there we have all those differing viewpoints again.) On Pg. 9 the protagonist (I wish we had a name for her!) says: "Life is very much more exciting now than it used to be. You see I have something more to expect, to look forward to, to watch. I really do eat better, and am more quiet than I was.

    John is so pleased to see me improve! He laughed a little the other day, and said I seemed to be flourishing in spite of my wall-paper.

    I turned it off with a laugh. I had no intention of telling him it was because of the wall-paper--he would make fun of me. He might even want to take me away.

    I don't want to leave now until I have found it out. ........."


    I don't see her as feeling oppressed by her illness. I think she is entering a stage of denial. She is excited, she feels so much better, she has something to look forward to. Also, she is becoming more devious, sly, distrustful of those around her. Her mental state is changing quite rapidly now.

    Thank you, Ginny, for telling us that Dr. Weinstock believes that we should not burden ourselves with the author's intent. That gives us a lot of freedom of interpretation. And, frankly, I doubt that Gilman was all that sure of her real intent anyway. Whether she hated her doctor or her husband or the medical profession or men in general is difficult to decide.

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 03:37 pm
    "For me the sin is not going mad or behaving within a paradigm of helplessness but not being proud of the work you did to get well along with sharing your wellness, not necessarily the work but the result of that work, rather then dwelling on the illness recreating that neediness." ---- is something I absolutely agree with. The women here have shared their wellness. But that's my complaint about this author. She didn't share her wellness. She only shared her descent into the whirlpool and then left it there. I don't know what her motive was, but I'm not comfortable with it.

    I also feel that the little ditty you sometimes hear of "Youth is wasted on the young" is a truism. When we are young, as I assume this character was since she had just given birth, we have so little knowledge about the way the world works, so little knowledge about ourselves or what it is we want, and we can get caught in that sort of trap as being helpless victims. I was also caught in it and so I do know what the character is feeling and have empathy for her up to a point, but from my perspective now and where I am now, I want to shake her until her teeth rattle.

    I think the reason for that is that I still see the same ol' same ol' in the younger women of today. They don't know anymore how they feel and who they are than we did, and most of them make it easy on themselves by giving in to social pressure, whatever that is these days (and I think a whole lot of it is sexual and physical beauty standards pressures today). It's only with learning and observation that one begins to truly SEE what is going on. I do believe that people who go through these things ought to be given help, but that's what that particular doctor and her husband were doing, and it was WRONG. So what I'm saying is that ultimately each of us has to take responsibility for what we want and don't want---and the consequences that go with that, because consequences there will definitely be.

    You know, a couple of years ago I was on a board that discussed women's health issues. I ended up leaving it because I couldn't stand to read what I was reading. I can't tell you how many young women came on that board and said, "My boyfriend wants me to do such and so, but I'm uncomfortable with that. What shall I do. I don't want to lose him." What angered me most was the other women who gave her advice. Instead of advising her that "If you are truly uncomfortable with what he is asking, and he demands it anyway, just how much does this man love and respect you?" and they told her to give in, and laid the whole guilt trip on her, that she was sexually or however inhibited, and that what he wanted was OK and she was wrong. When I spoke up I was crucified. When I asked, "What man who truly LOVES, would ask his woman to do something she felt uncomfortable with?" the riot that ensued was terrible to behold. They were still there at the edge of the whirlpool, just where we were, and where this character is, buying into the political correctness of the day and into slavery, no matter that women's lib had freed them not to "NEED" someone who doesn't respect your wishes, not to "DEPEND" on someone for emotional support and even physcial love if it required one to go beyond one's own limits. It angered me. It still angers me when I hear it or see it, and you can see it on almost every magazine cover.

    A couple of years ago I tried the dating game for a while, and it was a disaster. The men buy into all the current verbiage too, and one of them that I heard from some of the men was, "I feel incomplete without a woman by my side." Well, all I could come up with for that was, "If you are not complete at this age, I can't help you." Because I am complete, but to get there took a lot of risk, a lot of effort, a lot of learning and making mistakes, a whole lot of consequences, a realization that nothing is ever perfect and that's life. It's not perfect for the gals and it's not perfect for the guys, and never has been, but I surely didn't want an "incomplete" man by my side. Just like in religion, we buy the spiel of whatever thinking is current, and then we either do wallow in it or we etch it in stone, and we loose where we really want to go.

    And that's what I see in this story. It's just my personal reaction to it. It doesn't have to be shared by anyone, nor do I need agreement in the least. And it's also my personal reaction to where so-called "feminism" is today---yes, they've given us freedoms we never dreamed of, and I'm grateful, but now we have to be careful that we don't get "stuck" and etch that in stone when it still isn't quite right. And I think feminism today it etched and stuck and just creating a whole bunch of new victims under the guise of "sexual freedom" or "career" or whatever. Well, I don't want to be there with them. I want to make my own choices no matter what the prevalent thinking is. I am moving on to be exactly the human being I want to be and was meant to be, and it's from this point on under my own power.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 03:48 pm
    PHYLL, what you typed in red is "crazy talk" like things I've heard in the past from some mentally ill people diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or severe psychotic symptoms I know. In real life I find that kind of talk very discouraging. The same is true in this story. If you find hope in it, that's fine. To me that's the sort of denial I heard too often from those I took my son and others to for medical help. Perhaps one has to be right next to these sick people to understand how sick they are and how the sickness works.

    Mal

    MountainRose
    November 11, 2003 - 03:53 pm
    thanks Mal. It was interesting, but it's another politically correct viewpoint we buy into. It might or might not have had some validity, but I doubt it. When someone sees anything through a filter (as we all do!) then taking some of the lines to validate your viewpoint is natural. I just don't happen to buy this one, although it certainly is a viewpoint.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 11, 2003 - 04:02 pm
    glad you shared MountainRose - gave me a new understanding to your views and boy do I agree with the views in your last long post...

    My definition of Feminism has always been the Rebecca West quote --
    I myself have never been able to find out
    precisily what feminism is.
    I only know people call me a feminist
    whenever I express sentiments
    that differentiate me from a doormat.

    Phyll
    November 11, 2003 - 04:34 pm
    OK, Mal, whatever......

    I think you are mis-reading my post or I am mis-stating my thoughts.

    Scrawler
    November 11, 2003 - 04:37 pm
    Marvelle: I agree with your thoughts about Jennie. She does repesent the traditional woman of the 1800s and was probably more than a little confused by the speaker's actions. As you stated: "to be actively curious and to explore the patriarchal realm would be unacceptable under the gender roles." This would be an explanation of why she jumped when the speaker caught her looking the wallpaper.

    Marlyn (Mal): You wrote: "Her crusade against inhumane tetment had succeeded. Gilman says at the end of this little essay that it (the story) was not intended to drive people crazy, but to save people from being driven crazy, and it worked." Do you think Gilman was successful in her quest?

    I am not sure that "going crazy" would feel very different for the person going through the process than what she thought was normal. The people around her would probably be more aware of the changes in her. To the person, herself, I would think that she would slowly over time loose touch with reality. To quote an earlier statement: "I used to lie awake as a child and get more entertainment and terror out of blank walls and plain furniture than most children could find in a toy store." We accept this action in children, but when they become adults and they don't stop we call them "crazy". Perhaps the speaker was a child who never really grew up.

    CheryINY: I have to agree with you that men probably don't understand women any better than they did in the 1800s. That is why it is so important for men and women to communicate with each other and to speak their thoughts hontestly. Although it takes two to tango and both have to accept the other for who or what they are "warts" and all.

    Ginny: Your right "form and messge" is a marriage of love. Some things are better said visually and others are better said through the written word. However, I think in the 1800s for women to show their "messages" the novel and short story was the only way for them to expess themselves and not be ridiculed. And even then male writers like Hawthorne, called women writers: "those silly female scribblers" were more the concesses of opinion among the males of the time.

    Barbara St. Aubrey: Thanks for the great information of the uses of "yellow" most interesting. You're right I think authors today don't pay as much attention to symbolic meaning. I personally think that the average audience today is so used to the sound bytes we get from the TV, computer, and movies that to make anything "symbolic" would draw away from the simplicity that the stories today have to be so that they'll fit between commercials or how long it will take the audience to get fidgety. The epics of yesterday are almost unheard of today except in adventue stories like "Lord of the Rings" and than yu tend to be so conscious of the action you don't see the symbolism.

    Mountain Rose: Welcome! It's nice to hear from you. Yes, I think you're right when you say that she: "was caught in her own trap by her own imagination." There is a world out there - but how would you motivate a woman in her state of mind to seek it? I still say she felt safer in the situation that she had made for herself than whan she kenw to be the real world and that was one thing that kept her where she was. It was a like a "Catch-22". Yes, I agree: "...her own conflicting emotions of what society expects of her and what she wishes for herself, and it becomes destructive to the point of madness."

    Ah! Yes, why did John insit on that particular room? It makes you wonder doesn't it.

    Yes, I too wondered about the author's purposes. Pershap she got lost in her own imagination and gave a lot of clues and false leads because she felt it would be entertaining. My personal opinion is that a straightforwrd story of "showing" a person in this state of mind would have been more to the purpose to illustrate the message Gilman intended to give us. Unfortunately, in the 1800s novels and short stories were more popular written in the first person than they are today. But in first person, you can only see what the person is thinking, seeing, and doing. You don't see the action or thoughts of the other characters except through dialogue or the speaker of the story, so you tend to get a one-sided story.

    Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2003 - 04:38 pm
    MOUNTAIN ROSE, just because I post a link to an article, it doesn't mean I agree with it or any part of it. More often than not, it's for information only.

    What kind of upbringing did you all have? I'm beginning to think I was very fortunate to have been raised by an aunt who never played the traditional roles of wife and mother. She worked all the time; cooked, left the dishwashing, laundry (done by hand) and housecleaning to whoever would do it, or she hired it done.

    At times I felt deprived, I admit, but I can see it was an advantage in many ways. Her ways of teaching me were: "Here's some books, go read. You want music lessons? Here's a dollar. Get yourself on the train and the subway and go by yourself." I learned that way and in school. The only thing my aunt taught me was her example, and her example was not ever a doormat.

    EDIT:

    SCRAWLER, what do you think about Gilman's finding her quest? Weir Mitchell stopped prescribing and using the Rest Cure Treatment after she wrote "The Yellow Wallpaper". Was what Gilman did a succress? If you want to know how people feel when they're "going crazy", volunteer to do some work in a locked ward in a psychiatric hospital and talk to some patients there. I wonder how many people here have ever been in one? In a visitor's capacity, of course.

    Mal

    horselover
    November 11, 2003 - 05:50 pm
    MAL, At one time, there was a theory held by a number of psychiatrists that schizophrenics were not so much crazy as people of superior insight into society's madness. These therapists believed that the paranoid ravings of some of their patients actually revealed a kind of "super-sanity." Some still subscribe to this view. I myself believe these theories were and are hogwash. In my thirties, I did work as a volunteer in a mental hospital. I think it is possible for a sane person to find interpretations in a crazy person's ravings just as we do in literature or poetry. But the person who is ill is not really aware of making a commentary on society and is only painfully aware of his/her inability to function in an increasingly frightening world that exists only for them.

    This is such a fabulous story that seems to have struck a nerve in all the participants of this discussion. There are so many posts, SN will soon have to provide more memory for its servers in order to archive this discussion (haha). We all can see elements of our own experience or that of people we have known in the unfortunate experiences of this narrator. Her relationship with her husband, with the medical establishment, and with the society of her time all engage our interest and sympathies. We would like to shake her and tell her to get a grip, but that is exactly what will not help someone in her condition. In fact, much of the medication that exists today to help patients with serious mental illness did not exist in her time. Sad as it may be, not long ago, many people died of all kinds of medical conditions that are easily treated or cured today.

    CherylNY
    November 11, 2003 - 07:13 pm
    This is truly enlightening, seeing all these views of the world.

    Mal... I was in college in the 60s. We had a dorm curfew, the guys didn't. We learned how to take advantage if we wanted to. While we were out protesting the war, and getting photographed by the "secret police" other women were worrying about finding a husband. Different women, different choices. I chose to become a teacher, to make sure that teenage girls had choices in life. As a Math teacher, I was able to guide many young women into the sciences and mathematics just because it was not "the right major for a woman." You are so right, we have to DO something, not just whimper about our fates.

    Cheryl

    Ginny
    November 12, 2003 - 06:16 am
    Wow, I agree Cheryl, I swore to myself I would never say wow again but..er...wow
    this is something else, and since I have to go out this morning I thought I'd come in and put up Pages 11 and 12 and STAND BACK! (because I haven't a clue what she's saying) and see what you all say, thank you all for the marvelous contributions, I especially want to pick up on a couple of them, but for NOWWWWWW...Pages 11 and 12!!! Here's a couple of questions to start out with, what are YOURS?

  • 1. The END! And what an end it is, do you think it's a positive or hopeful end? Why or why not? (Maryal)

    2. Why would John faint? If he were trying to drive her insane wouldn't he be satisfied?


  • What does her continuing to "creep" over him mean?

  • What do you think he'll do when he wakes up?

  • Isn't the door open now? Can she now get out?

  • 3. "It is so pleasant to be out in this great room and creep around as I please! " and "I suppose I shall have to get back behind the pattern when it comes night, and that is hard!" In Page 12 Narrator has completely transferred identity to the paper.

  • What does the time of day have to do with Narrator and the pattern?
  • What does this parallel in her own life?


  • 4. What is the significance of "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!"

  • If Narrator is anxious not to be put back, who are the women she sees outside and why is she afraid of them and afraid to join them?

  • What does it mean that she "ropes" herself in for fear of going to the road? "But I am securely fastened now by my well-hidden rope—you don't get ME out in the road there!"

  • What can be made of all the images of escape and restraint in these passages? Are they symbolic, and if so, of what?

    5. There seems to be a definite break between Pages 11 and 12, where does it come and what form does it take?

  • 6. What is the meaning of this passage, "But I am here, and no person touches this paper but me—not ALIVE!

  • 7. What is the meaning of "She tried to get me out of the room—it was too patient!"

    8. "The beDstead is fairly gnawed!" (Page 11) "I tried to lift and push it until I was lame, and then I got so angry I bit off a little piece at one corner—but it hurt my teeth." What do the references to the condition of the bed mean?

  • 8.
    "To jump out of the window might be admirable exercise, but the bars are too strong to try.
    br> Besides I wouldn't do it. Of course not. I know well enough that a step like that is improper and might be misconstrued."
    What do these two sentences reveal about Narrator?

    OK!! There's a start!! What do you think? What do YOU make of the last two pages, what do YOU want to ask!?! Let's here from you!

    ginny
  • annafair
    November 12, 2003 - 06:45 am
    I have been giving this a lot of thought as everyone else has as well. It touches us all because we are women and women have always been told what to do , what was acceptable and what was not. I am grateful to my mother who taught me to be independent. To tell me first it was against the law to marry until you were at least 21..in fact she told my five brothers the same. She also told me there were worse things in life than never marrying. It was never her goal to see me married but to see me live life as I wanted.

    And that was a time when every young lady was expected to marry so they would have a man to take care of them. By the way I told my daughters the same thing and even my sons. My oldest married at 25 the rest were all older. My brothers were taught to do housework and so were my sons. Which has been very helpful to thier working wives.

    Like someone said and I apologize for not remembering ( I NEED TO MAKE NOTES) for women things havent improved so much. They are so afraid some man wont like them if they are too independant. I know I wouldnt like me if wasnt independent.

    Here in the story we have a women who apparantly had ideas, who wanted to write, who wanted to be independent. Society was disapproving, her husband who was a doctor ( and perhaps a doctor because she was angry with her doctor)diapproved, she was expected to be something other than what she wanted to be. She felt trapped and the only way out was madness.

    One of my friends ended up in a mental hospital. Her husband like mine was a military officer and she had been a local TV personality when she married him. Independent but she allowed him to dictate her behavior. He expected to her to be always the perfect hostess, wife and mother. One day he came home to find she had overdosed on some pain medicine. She ended up in the hospital. When I went to visit her she was more relaxed than I had ever seen her. Over the rest of the time I knew them while stationed at the same base things seemed to improve. We kept in touch and later she wrote me a letter asking to come and visit because things were not tolerable, My return letter was read by the family and a daughter called to tell me her mother wasnt rational and warned me against trying to "help" her. When next I saw them I hardly recognized her. She was still trying to be the wife and mother everyone expected her to be. But to do so she lost herself. The only way should could cope was to be on medicine that dulled her personality. Talking to her was like talking to a doll whose conversation was programmed in without an original thought.

    This past summer the daughter of a neighbor committed suicide. She was 19 and was depressed because she and her boyfriend had split up. On the surface she seemed all right and her parents werent aware of her depression. The little girl across the street at 16 last year attempted the same thing...only 4 pills made her throw up and she called me ....and again it was because the young man she had been dating was going off to college and wanted to date other people.

    While women were expected to behave certain ways years ago I dont see it has changed except now they are supposed to have sexual freedom and when they do they find the "BOY" they were in love with only loved them for sexual favors. Sorry when a young man would tell me if I loved him I would sleep with him I would reply if you loved me you wouldnt ask...It sad to me that many young women are still feel marriage is the only goal in life. I had a marriage that ended ten years ago just short of our 45 th anniversary when my husband died from cancer. It was successful because of what my mother taught me. To be my own person. If I encouraged him to follow his dreams I expected to be encouraged to follow mine.

    I see the author being raised in a society that put unrealisic demands on her. Descending into madness allowed her several things. Everyone knew she was ill, THEY had to change. Their ideas were challenged and they had to accept her as she wanted to be not as what they wanted her to be. That takes a lot of courage to move away from others expectations and become YOU.

    All who have posted here and shared thier stories ....you had that courage and I thank you for your honesty and frankness.

    I do agree that whatever an artist, poet , writer writes once it is my hands it is the way I read it and am affected by it that counts. The same way with any artistic achievement ...anna

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 07:03 am
    Good morning to all of you off the wall, up off your backs people. Free at last!

    HORSELOVER, I say balderdash to people who think they'll find the truth from a raving schizophrenic. Though I think most of us are a little crazy with our melancholia, depression, compulsions and obsessions, ridiculous expectations, too high highs and too low lows, and all too often whacky behavior from whatever, I'll take my cues from someone who has not lost her reason. As far as medications for psychotic people of our time are concerned, some of them like Haldol can have awful side effects and cause all kinds of problems, like impotence, most people don't know anything about. None of them is a cure.

    I don't know where it was that I read something by someone which stated that she hadn't been able to think about symbols because she'd become hooked on TV. Television commercials are a marvel of symbolism when you think about it. Advertising people are very much up on that sort of thing.

    Symbolism in "The Yellow Wallpaper"? Well, I woke this morning thinking the bars the narrator saw are phallic symbols.

    The yellow dye from the wallpaper that stained the clothes is the stain of sin.

    Though I'm certain I know what the smell was, it becomes the stink of rot in the narrator's mind. Dante talked about something like that in "The Inferno", didn't he?

    I remember one time when I was much younger, I was talking about maturity to a man of almost exquisite intellectuality. He said to me, from the vantage point of age, knowledge and experience, "Marilyn, maturity is next to rot."

    The bulbous eyes might represent the guilt for original sin, which has made so many people feel as if they're being watched night and day every day of their lives because of something they've done.

    The narrator's creeping over her prostate husband might mean victory in the sense that she's got him pinned and down for the count. Or it could mean that he's the symbol of all the obstacles in her path in her fight for her rights. Interesting, isn't it, that she doesn't try to push him out of her way?

    The immoveable, nailed-down bed could represent marriage and the rings in the wall wedding rings.

    She's locked John and everyone else out and thrown the key outside. Under a plantain leaf? What does a plantain leaf look like? Anything like a fig leaf? People have called the locking in of herself a victory. In my opinion, it would be if she'd kept the key so she could get out.

    Who's Jane? When I first read this story long ago, I thought Jane was the woman behind the wallpaper. Why, I wonder, do people refer to the narrator as Anne? I've seen that in several different things I've read. Some analyst or other said Jane was Jennie. Is Jennie a nickname for Jane?

    The wallpaper itself is a symbol. I've said it is a symbol of prison, meaning the prison of Self. That's because I think the woman and women behind the wallpaper are the Alter Ego or Other Self of the sick woman. Some think the wallpaper is a symbol of Society.

    Well, today I'm tired of the Feminist aspects of this story. A reason for this is that I believe there's much more that affects female human beings than Men and Society.

    Like hormones and body chemistry that is peculiar to women.

    What about genes? Gilman was of the Beecher line, and apparently a tendency toward a sort of mental illness ran through that line. Who was it? Catherine Beecher who was hospitalized for much the same reason Gilman was? Of course, people didn't talk about genes in those days. They did say, "Well, he/she got this/that from her father, her mother, her uncle", so there was a realization that traits were inherited.

    That's enough from me at the moment.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 07:19 am
    PICTURE: Plantain plant

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 08:36 am
    A few comments about GINNY's questions.

    The narrator says, "She tried to get me out of the room—it was too patient!" It's PATENT, not patient, and means "obvious".

    In my weird mood of the moment, I am thinking the rope is a kind of symbolic umbilical cord which holds her in the room (womb). I don't think she feels ready to go out with those other "newborn" women who are creeping outside.

    I think John fainted because he was absolutely shocked at what he saw when he went in the yellow wallpaper room. I think he is a nice man, who truly loves his wife in a paternal sort of way. I don't think he ever had any idea of making her insane. He behaves the way good husbands behaved in those days. Like other men of his day he thought his duty towards his wife was to provide for her and to take care of her and his family. I think his calling her "little goose" and other such names was his way of using what were at the time terms of endearment, not the insults we perceive them to be.

    In my opinion, the ending of this story cannot be seen as positive unless through implication the reader believes the narrator will be taken to the hospital and cured of her madness. What are the chances of that when we've already seen what happened to her in the hands of one of the best neurologists of the time? What guarantee do we have that the shock of this illness will help the narrator achieve any sort of Freedom of Self?

    I think there is enough sanity left in her that she knows if she jumped out the window to get "admirable exercise" there's a chance she'd kill herself. She has fought and won the battle of putting herself back together, or perhaps of putting herself together for the first time. From a Feminist point-of-view, risking her life would defeat her purpose. She says, "It might be misconstrued" or people might think she had committed suicide. I think suicide is the last thing on her mind. Of course, some might say that she wouldn't jump because of the restraints of her upbringing and Society. I think something in her tells her it would be too risky; that "admirable exercise" isn't worth the risk of losing what she's found.

    I've already said that I think the bed is a symbol for marriage. Is she gnawing the bed and trying to move it in order to get out of her marriage?

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 12, 2003 - 09:12 am
    RIGHT ON, MALRYN. This work is rife with symbolism. The writer is working with the images of the mind, and the mind works through pictures,..images. We translate the pictures into words when we speak.

    This has been heavy going, with considerable emotional involvement. I have found it tiring, and am definitely in the mood for something light and whimsical by now. ...Babi

    Deems
    November 12, 2003 - 09:59 am
    Mal--Wow. Look at all the symbolism you have found. One quick note. The online version has the error of "patient" for "patent." Sharp eyes picked that one out! I am looking at the text of the story as published in Ann Charters' The Story and Its Writer which is pretty reliable. Here the word is PATENT.

    Another thing you noticed that I encountered the first time I read this story and which I still haven't figured out to my satisfaction is WHO IS JANE? In the next to last paragraph, the narrator says, "I've got out at last. . . in spite of you and Jane."

    IS Jane the narrator's name? Her very own name? If so, is she saying that despite John's best efforts at keeping her "tied up" and her own complicity in trying to live the life of a submissive wife, to keep her true self incarcerated (behind that wallpaper) SHE (and she is really now nameless if her name used to be Jane), has finally escaped?

    Or is JANE Jennie's more formal name? Up to this point in the story, Jennie has always been Jennie. Why would the narrator give us her given name at this point? The formality of madness, perhaps?

    Back in the day when so many women had the same names, there were many creative nicknames for given names. My own name Mary had Mollie, Molly, and Mol as well as Polly, to name just a few.

    So, JANE could be Jennie's given name.

    What do the rest of you think? Who is JANE?

    Deems
    November 12, 2003 - 10:02 am
    which was published in 1935, the year she died. It purports to tell the story of her own breakdown. Keep in mind as you read it, that this is an account written nearly forty years after the breakdown.

    At that time the greatest nerve specialist in the country was Dr. S. W. Mitchell of Philadelphia. Through the kindness of a friend of Mr. Stetson’s living in that city, I went to him and too “the rest cure” went with the utmost confidence, prefacing the visit with a long letter giving “the history of the case” in a way a modern psychologist would have appreciated. Dr. Mitchell only thought it proved self-conceit. He had a prejudice against the Beechers. “I’ve had two women of your blood here already,” he told me scornfully. This eminent physician was well versed in two kinds of nervous prostration; that of the business man exhausted from too much work, and the society woman exhausted from too much play. The kind I had was evidently behind him. But he did reassure me on one point—there was no dementia, he said, only hysteria.

    I was put to bed and kept there. I was fed, bathed, rubbed, and responded with the vigorous body of twenty-six. As far as he could see there was nothing the matter with me, so after a month of this agreeable treatment he sent me home, with this prescription:

    Live as domestic a life as possible. Have your child with you all the time. (Be it remarked that if I did but dress the baby it left me shaking and crying—certainly far from a healthy companionship for her, to say nothing of the effect on me.) Lie down an hour after each meal. Have but two hours’ intellectual life a day. And never touch pen, brush, or pencil as long as you live.

    I went home, followed those directions rigidly for months, and came perilously near to losing my mind. The mental agony grew so unbearable that I would sit blankly moving my head from side to side—to get out from under the pain. Not physical pain, not the least “headache” even, just mental torment and so heavy in its nightmare gloom that it seemed real enough to dodge.

    I made a rag baby, hung it on a doorknob, and played with it. I would crawl into remote closets and under beds—to hide from the grinding pressure of that profound distress. . . .

    Finally, in the fall of ’87, in a moment of clear vision, we agreed to separate, to get a divorce. There was no quarrel, no blame for either one, never an unkind word between us, unbroken mutual affection—but it seemed plain that if I went crazy, it would do my husband no good, and be a deadly injury to my child.

    What this meant to the young artist, the devoted husband, the loving father, was so bitter a grief and loss that nothing would have justified breaking the marriage save this worse loss which threatened. It was not a choice between going and staying, but between going, sane, and staying, insane. If I had been of the slightest use to him or to the child, I would have “stuck it,” as the English say. But this progressive weakening of the mind made a horror unnecessary to face; better for that dear child to have separated parents than a lunatic mother.

    We had been married four years and more. This miserable condition of mind, this darkness, feebleness, and gloom, had begun in those difficult years of courtship, had grown rapidly worse after marriage, and was now threatening utter loss; whereas I had repeated proof that the moment I left home I began to recover. It seemed right to give up a mistaken marriage.

    Our mistake was mutual. If I had been stronger and wiser I should never have been persuaded into it. Our suffering was mutual too, his unbroken devotion, his manifold cares and labors in tending a sick wife, his adoring pride in the best of babies, all coming to naught, ending in utter failure—we sympathized with each other but faced a bitter necessity. The separation must come as soon as possible, the divorce must wait for conditions.

    If this decision could have been reached soon it would have been much better for me, the lasting mental injury would have been less. Such recovery as I have made in forty years, and the work accomplished, seem to show that the fear of insanity was not fulfilled, but the effects of nerve bankruptcy remain to this day. So much of my many failures, of misplay and misunderstanding and “queerness” is due to this lasting weakness, and kind friends so unfailingly refuse to allow for it, to believe it, that I am now going to some length in stating the case.


    I have typed this myself because I can't find it on the internet. All mistakes are mine.

    judywolfs
    November 12, 2003 - 11:21 am
    I think Jane is the name of the wife who tried so hard, in the room with yellow wallpaper, to not go mad, to not turn into a creeping woman.

    I don't align her creeping with being new-born, to me, the creeping seems more like a wild animal pacing around and around in its small cage. JudyW

    Phyll
    November 12, 2003 - 12:03 pm
    I agree with Judywolfs. Finally, we have a name for the protagonist. John's wife is Jane. But in her deteriorated mind she is the creeping woman from behind the wallpaper and John has become "that man". The irrational has overcome the rational.

    It isn't a perfect story--it has a lot of discrepancies, but it touches a deep chord within all of us in one way or another. Often it makes us uncomfortable but it certainly makes us think.

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 12, 2003 - 12:25 pm
    these last two pages are so off the wall expressing her madness that they are making me so uncomfortable - brings up images of my mom who often went off the deep end but there was no doctors and no curing - as a child - oh I do not want to go into it - the last awful was when I came to visit when my two older chidlren were ages 2 and 3 and she came out the door and down the stairs so pleased to see us and I blanched with her looking as she did - hustled my own and my kid brother and sister (age 8 and 10) in the house and for two weeks played the role my grandmother often played for us - getting food on the table - cleaning the house - getting the wash done - seeing that my kid sister and brother went to school and did their homework - combed her hair - put some organization back while mom just talked and talked and talked which was OK with me - I must say a doctor never crossed anyone's mind - to acknowledge this as serious would have ment some county mental institute which even in the 50s was only one step up from the movie 'Snakepit' - even as a grownup when I could do something to help I would get scared without knowing why...

    judywolfs
    November 12, 2003 - 01:02 pm
    Barbara you said "these last two pages are so OFF THE WALL..." You mean like the yellow wallpaper was finally to a great extent "off the wall?"

    The experiences with your mother that you described must have been so disturbing.

    MountainRose
    November 12, 2003 - 01:04 pm
    Mal, I'm aware that you posted the homosexual interpretation of this story just for information. It was interesting; just that I disagreed with the article. But thanks for posting it, especially since there had been some discussion about that aspect previously.

    OK, from the last few posts here I am wondering if she (the author) suffered from schizophrenia. She states she went to see the doctor at age 26, had by that time been married for 4 years, and the problem had actually started even before her marriage. That sounds about right for the schedule on schizophrenia, which usually appears in the late teens or early 20s.

    If that's the case, actually the feminists are up a creek to prove anything at all, because schizophrenia is definitely a chemical aberration and takes its course even if her life had been perfect and she'd had the perfect husband and lived in this century.

    I do think there are degrees of mental illness. In my family there is a thread of both depression (unipolar) and manic depressive disease (bipolar). My grandmother committed suicide in one of her bipolar depressive swings. My daughter is also bipolar. On the other hand, my father, his sister, and my brother and I have suffered from unipolar depression for most of our lives, and when I was under the pressure of my peculiar and harrowing marriage and raising children and all my actions prescribed by society, I gave in to it because it was easy and it was an escape, and spiraled downwards knowingly. But all the time I was doing that I realized deep down in my gut I didn't have to. Those who truly have a chemical imbalance have no choice, I agree, and they need treatment---albeit all the treatments have their own set of problems also. I know I was on Prozac at one time and it was the oddest feeling, because I lost all my creativity, and my thoughts went round and round about only such mundane things as what to wear, what to eat, and sometimes no thoughts at all. I took myself off of it because I felt like a zombie, and I missed my creative juices flowing. I could not have painted a picture to save my life, and I did wonder if that's how most people go through their existence. I surely hope not.

    What's interesting is that I did a lot of reading on unipolar and bipolar depression, and then I began to recognize the symptoms before they became full-blown. I still have unipolar depression (especially in the winter when sunlight is lacking) but before it gets too bad I DO SOMETHING---anything, a walk, exercise, visits with friends, an adventure of something I've never done before, cleaning house, chopping wood, whatever it takes to nip it in the bud.

    I am now wondering, with the author's family history and probably a lot of autobiographical emotions in the story, if there was a choice for this character or if this was full-blown schizophrenia, bcause if it was, it is pretty much incurable and would have happened even if her life had been perfect. It must have been harrowing for her husband to watch. No wonder he fainted.

    Any thoughts?

    judywolfs
    November 12, 2003 - 02:23 pm
    But last night, I noticed that the cat food area was kind of sloppy, so I took a wet cloth and knelt down and mopped it up. Then I noticed a couple spots on the floor near the refrigerator, so I leaned over and cleaned them. Of course, that led to seeing other smooches over near the sink. And before I knew it, I was CREEPING ALONG THE FLOOR!!! What a shock when I saw my creeping shadow! - JudyW

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 02:58 pm
    If the narrator's name is JANE, why did she say, "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane"? Why isn't she called JANE in plays I've looked at and the radio play segment I linked? In those she's called "ANNE". I want to try and find out why that is.

    The "creeping like a baby" because she's "newborn" thing is a Feminist point-of-view. I've been trying to look at this story from as many vantage points as I could in order to see why Feminists latched onto this story in the 70's as they did and revived its popularity and perhaps to understand why there are so many different reactions to it.

    Today I let my imagination go when I thought about symbols. I could probably go offline and come up with even more. Like the tendrils on the wallpaper which seemed so threatening. The snake in the Adam and Eve story? The snake of Snakepit madness? She felt as if she were caught in the vise-like grip of a boa constrictor?

    Don't ask me to say which of these symbol interpretations I believe. I still lean toward the point-of-view that this story is principally a description of a person losing her mind.

    There's nothing in this story that tells me all the things I read in posts here about the pressure of Society and subjugation of women. Those aspects come from what I knew before I read this story again and began seriously to try and analyze it. If I were approaching this story with a really fresh mind and much of what I know about the history of women's issues erased from that blackboard, I'd have only the fact that the husband refused to let her have the room downstairs that she wanted. Then I'd wonder why he was so insistent that she stay in a room she hated so much and become angry with him. That tells me about the man, but it doesn't say anything to me with a fresh, clean mind, about Society, except what I can guess.

    Having read what MARYAL posted that Gilman wrote about her own slip from sanity, I must say that this story takes on a different complexion. It's fiction only slightly based on fact, apparently. Gilman embellished and exaggerated to impress Weir Mitchell and potential readers. For that reason, I now have trouble believing her. This is fiction -- a made-up story and a good one -- and I now believe that's how it should be treated.

    I just went back and looked at a previous post and saw yours, JUDY. Oh, lordy, did you make me laugh with your cat area story! How funny!

    MOUNTAIN ROSE, since I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist there is absolutely no way I can diagnose what kind of illness Charlotte Perkins Gilman was subject to, nor is there any way I can diagnose what happened to the narrator. It's a pretty good assumption that she was suffering from postpartum depression in the beginning of the story, and you could probably make a safe bet on the guess that the depression turned into a psychosis, but only a medical person would really know. This character is behaving as a person with a severe psychosis might, but she is not acting like any schizophrenic I've ever known. My experience, however, justifies only a semi-educated guess by me. I have to admit that when laypeople talk and write authoritatively about mental illness, using catchwords everyone knows like "Clinical Depression" and "Chemical Imbalance", I become exasperated and turn right off.

    Gilman shows herself to have the potential for being a very fine writer in "The Yellow Wallpaper". What a shock when I began reading Herland and when I read some of the pieces in The Forerunner like "What Diantha Did" and some of her essays and poetry. It's as if she had one burst of genius in her life and then slipped back into something very ordinary. Maybe mental illness was like a drug to her, so much that even the memory of it inspired some fantastically good writing. Who knows?

    Mal

    judywolfs
    November 12, 2003 - 03:07 pm
    Mal, where did you see her referred to as Anne?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 03:10 pm
    JUDY, I first heard her called ANNE in the radio segment I linked here a few days ago. Then I read about other plays which had been based on this story. In them the narrator was called ANNE. I have also seen her referred to ANNE in some of the analyses I've read on the web. I'll try to repost that radio segment so you can listen to it, and perhaps find the cast list of a play and post that.

    Mal

    Scrawler
    November 12, 2003 - 03:39 pm
    Page 11 of 12:

    "As soon as it was moonlight and that poor thing began to crawl and shake the pattern, I got up and ran to help her. I pulled and she shook, I shook and she pulled, and before morning we had peeled off yards of that paper." What wonderful imagery! Can't you feel the emotions of the character flowing outward toward you. Some would probably say that this is symbolic, perhaps of finally letting go and doing what she wanted to do all along. But I'm not sure I agree. I think though that it certainly makes a good visual in order to move the story along.

    "But I am here, and no person touches this paper but me - not ALIVE!" Wow! Can you feel the chills run up and down your spine. You just know that something is going to happen in order to prove her point.

    "I quite enjoy the room, now it is bare again." Okay, we are now entering the TWILIGHT ZONE. That is if we haven't been there all along.

    "I have locked the door and thrown the key down into the front path." You GO Girl! Yep, something is going to happen for sure now. Don't go into the room you feel yourself scream. But what is this. You are in the room and she's just thrown away the key! "But there is still a chance - someone is bound to come," you think to yourself as you crouch in the corner of the room.

    Page 12 of 12:

    "Then I peeled all the paper I could reach standing on the floor. It sticks horribly and the pattern just enjoys it! All those strangeled heads and bulbous eyes and waddling fungus growth just shriek with derision!" Shriek is the ultimate word here. If only I could shriek. I don't want to be here anymore. Oky this woman is definitely crazy!

    "It is so pleasant to be out in the great room and creep around as I please! For outside you have to creep on the ground, and everything is greeen instead of yellow. But here I can creep smoothly on the floor, and my shoulder just fits in that long smooch around the wall, so I cannot lose my way." Okay, you just do that lady - but stay away from me.

    "Why there's John at the door! How he does call and pound! Now he's crying for an axe." Yes, please John go get an axe. I don't want to be here anymore. I don't care what the author meant to say - just get me out of this story!

    "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back." Easy for you to say lady. I do hope John hurries.

    "Now why should that man have fainted? But he did, and right across my path by the wall, so that I had to creep over him every time! Whee! I feel like I've been on a roller-coaster ride - what a thrill! I loved it of course, but I'm also glad it is over. I'm glad she finally got what she wanted. As for me, I'm flying out the front door as fast as my feet will carry me.

    Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 03:46 pm
    You can listen to the dramatization of The Yellow Wallpaper in which the narrator is called "ANNE" by going to OUTLINE at the top of these messages and finding my POST #247.

    Here's a link to the dramatization. That will make it easier.

    DRAMATIZATION

    Below is only one example of the use of the name "ANNE" in articles I've read. I can't find the cast list of the play based on the story in which the narrator is called "ANNE". What I want to know is why and where did this name come from?



    “Reading or writing her self upon the wallpaper allows the narrator to "escape" her husband's "sentence” and to achieve the limited freedom of madness which, virtually all these critics have agreed, constitutes a kind of sanity in the face of the in- sanity of male dominance” (Susan S. Lanser, Feminist Criticism, "The Yellow Wallpaper," And the Politics of Color in America, 4, neu.edu, July 26th 2003. Thus, the wallpaper is a source of her psychological disorder as well as a refuge from her husband's rule. In a sense, “the wallpaper becomes the symbol of both Anne's confinement and her liberation” (Trudi Mullerworth, Literary Analysis of The Yellow Wallpaper, Columbia.edu, July 26th 2003. The wallpaper as well as the book becomes "the objective representation of contemporary social reality" ”(Author’s name to be listed, Short Story Criticism Vol.13, Loralee MacPike, 122)."

    Source:

    Article about The Yellow Wallpaper

    Phyll
    November 12, 2003 - 04:11 pm
    Very interesting, thoughtful, and insightful comments from everyone in this discussion and I have enjoyed being a part of it. And a very large round of applause to Ginny for doing such a great job of leading us. Thanks, Ginny!

    Marvelle
    November 12, 2003 - 05:42 pm
    The surface story is about a woman's fall into madness and what contributes to her deterioration. The allegory shows a woman who becomes increasingly aware of the oppressive role of women and that awareness is her first tentative step (or creep) towards a more independent life.

    Question 4 asks: "What is the significance of "I've got out at last," said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!" [Narrator to John]

    In the allegory: The I is the woman behind the wallpaper who symbolically has become free and claimed the original narrator Jane. The woman from the wallpaper is an independent narrator; Jane is the submissive (or 'resigned') narrator. Now the woman in the wallpaper has emerged and is the dominant personality.

    Question 4: If narrator is anxious not to be put back, who are the women she sees outside and why is she agraid of them and afraid to join them? What does it mean the she "ropes" herself in for fear of going to the road? "But I am securely fastened now by my well-hidden rope - you don't get ME out in the road there!" What can be made of all the images of escape and restraint in these passages? Are they symbolic, and if so, of what? End Question 4

    The narrator would be afraid of complete independence and lack of security and social approval; of taking a path away from the house (woman's domain). She ropes herself in voluntarily with matrimony and motherhood, traditional female roles. A rope would be tied around her body like a ring would be around her finger. I've already talked about escape and restraint. The narrator half-willingly accepts the restraints yet chafs at them and wishes to escape. There's a duality here and shows the difficulty that women and men faced.

    ________________________

    Question 8: "The bedstead is fairly gnawed!" (11) "I tried to lift and push it until I was lame, and then I got so angry I bit off a little piece at one corner - but it hurt my teeth." What do the references to the condition of the bed mean? End Question 8

    The bed symbolizes the marriage bed in the bedroom, ie marriage itself and women's traditional place in it. The narrator tries to rearrange, change those conditions and it didn't work. When she lashed out in frustrated anger she ended by hurting herself. That's pretty standard symbolism and easy to understand.

    Question 9: "To jump out of the window might be admirable exercise, but the bars are too strong to try. Besides I wouldn't do it. Of course not. I know well enough that a step like that is improper and might be misconstrued." What do these ... sentences reveal about Narrator? End Question 9

    The first sentence reveals a desire to jump ship, to escape from the confining gendered role. The latter sentences are what she learned from society about what is proper behavior for a woman and which she partly accepts. Even if the independent woman is now the dominant personality, the internal conflict remains. I think one can still see that conflict today.

    Marvelle

    GingerWright
    November 12, 2003 - 06:39 pm
    The Yellow Wallpaper posts have been for me the Best discussion I have ever observed, and I observe All of the New discussons in the Books. Some I just pass thru but I could Not help but read each and every post in this one as I thought there was Nothing to be said, (so much for the first thought). Oh how I apprieciate being among All of You. "Go Girls Go" Your the Best. I have Not left and will Not untill the Last Post.

    Thanks again to All of You and Ginny You for leading it, Ginger

    horselover
    November 12, 2003 - 06:47 pm
    The author says her husband "pretended to be very loving and kind. As if I couldn't see through him!" But it makes me wonder if John does, in fact, intend to be loving and is simply misguided in his diagnosis and in his treatment of his wife's problems.

    Another indication of this is his fainting when he finally sees the full extent of her madness--"Now why should that man have fainted? But he did, and right across my path by the wall, so that I had to creep over him every time!" This last line provides us with the final horrific vision of this madwoman creeping round and round the almost empty room, and crawling over her unconscious husband every time.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 07:25 pm
    I wish I could be as confident about the rightness of my interpretations as others are about theirs. I find I must leave room for doubt and the many other interpretations of symbolism and themes of this story.
    "As Oscar Wilde lay dying in 1900, he commented: 'My wallpaper is killing me. [...] One or the other of us will have to go.'

    Lady Gregory, Memoirs."



    "Yellow wallpaper was a familiar character in realist fiction and was often found to be distasteful. In Honore de Balzac's Old Goriot, 'Charles stood aghast amid his trunks. His glance took in the sloping walls of an attic room hung with the kind of paper, yellow and strewn with bouquets of flowers, favored by country inns' (qtd. in Entwisle 72). George Sand wrote of her room in a Paris convent in 1818 that 'the wallpaper was once yellow, or so I am told. However that may be I find it a source of constant interest for it is scribbled all over with names, mottoes, verses, all sorts of foolishness, reflections and dates, the relics of former occupants'(75); while, in a room in Gustave Flaubert's Madame Bovary, 'wallpaper of a canary yellow, relieved along its upper edge by faded swags of flowers, trembled perpetually over its whole extent' (102). There is also a room with 'horrible' yellow wallpaper in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (Catteau 409-10). A notable American entry after Gilman is Willa Gather's 'Paul's Case' where the protagonist inhabits an upstairs room with 'horrible yellow wall-paper'"




    "Wallpaper itself came under general attack about the time of Gilman's tale, and this was, partly at least, a reaction to certain unsettling implications of Oriental aesthetics. According to Jan Jennings, wallpaper became an object of contention between two groups who competed for the female consumer: " 'Wallpaper manufacturers perpetuated the ornamental aesthetic that home economists and other progressives attempted to eradicate' (254). Reformers spoke of wallpaper as 'the invention of laziness and filth," concealing "dirt and noisomeness of every description' (256). They objected to wallpaper for its colours and its inappropriate patterns, while Jane Addams opposed it because it tended to harbour vermin (255). Edith Wharton, who shared with Gilman the privilege of undergoing S. Weir Mitchell's rest cure (the biographical experience behind Gilman's tale), also disliked wallpaper: 'It was well for the future of house-decoration when medical science declared itself against the use of wall-papers. These hangings have, in fact, little to recommend them' (Wharton and Codman 44). "



    "Doctors of the period criticized wallpaper as part of their battle against neurasthenia: Jonathan Crewe claims that 'the exasperating effect of pattern wallpaper on invalids was a medical commonplace of Gilman's time' (284). In his book on American nervousness, Tom Lutz quotes Robert W Edis, who wrote in 1883 that the 'endless multiplication and monotony of strongly-marked patterns [...] [is] a source of infinite torture and annoyance in times of sickness and sleeplessness,' after a time having 'a ghastly and nightmarish effect upon the brain' (230); and Susan Carter, in 1893, described how wallpaper, 'to many a nervous invalid[,] renders his hours intolerable, as he counts and combines over and over again the meaningless recurrence of a marked angle or curve, or the ever-repeated big, awkward rose or tiresome convolvulus' (80). George of Steven Crane's George's Mother, for example, is last seen defeated and alone, staring at wall-paper: 'The pattern was clusters of brown roses. He felt them like hideous crab s crawling upon his brain' (90).' "



    Source:

    Gilman's Arabesque Yellow Wallpaper

    Marvelle
    November 12, 2003 - 07:59 pm
    Horselover, that is a creepy vision of the madwoman creeping again and again over her husband. Although is there a reason for such an action? That's the surface plot and definitely a valid thread of the story. This same action when viewd as the allegory indicates that the woman is not subject to the man anymore although she's just beginning to learn to crawl/grow as an independent woman.

    Either way -- surface plot or allegory -- it's an unsettling image.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 08:04 pm
    Quoted from HERE. One of Christian Morgenstern's gallow songs (1905):

    Wallpaper flower, that is I,
    in May I do not bloom;
    but endlessly I multiply
    throughout the four-walled room.
    Your eyes that search unceasingly
    look for the end in vain;
    and if they hopscotsch after me,
    my love, you go insane. (213)

    "As a consequence of this 'everlastingness,' the arabesque is unreadable by Western eyes. The ornament 'often appears so confusing and complicated that there would seem to be little hope of ever disentangling the thread of Ariadne at all' (Riegl 273). Gilman's arabesque is certainly unreadable: Janice Haney-Peritz writes that its 'resistance to being read' (103) is infuriating; Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar see the pattern as 'otherwise incomprehensible hieroglyphics' (90); Susan Lanser states that the 'narrator is faced with an unreadable text, a text for which none of her interpretive strategies is adequate' (420); Conrad Shumaker has subtitled an article on the tale 'Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Unreadable Wallpaper.' Gilman's narrator attempts to find the pattern's centre, its order, its laws of design: 'I know a little of the principle of design," she concludes, 'and I know this thing was not arranged on any laws of radiation, or alternation, or repetition, or symmetry, or anything else that I ever heard of' (Yellow 20). "





    "One can imagine Americans not merely viewing but 'living' in the paper, because wallpaper, particularly when scenic, was hallucinatory: Rae Beth Gordon writes of Gilman's tale that 'had he [the doctor-husband] read [Paul] Souriau or [Gaetan Gatian de] Clerambault, he would have known that there is 'nothing so dangerous, so fascinating, to a temperament like [hers]' as this contemplation of decorative pattern, so apt to float between reality and hallucination' ("Interior" 95). As far as Ruskin was concerned, 'all Oriental art was hallucinatory: ' "




    "A physician in Kansas City wrote to Gilman, praising her for offering the first 'account of incipient insanity' he had found in literature and speculating that her tale must have followed some experience with opium addiction (Owens 67). Wallpaper shared hallucinatory properties with another fruit of Oriental encounter, narcotic drugs. Gilman's wallpaper reproduces a common sign of opium intoxication, producing a synaesthetic response in the narrator: the smell is like the colour of the paper' (29. emph. Gilman's). The overlap between drug hallucination and wallpaper pattern is so intense that it can seem as if the latter is a writing out of the former; Havelock Ellis's drug hallucinations of 1898 consisted of 'living arabesques' (Haining 179): 'a furious succession of colored arabesques, arising and descending or sliding at every possible angle into the field of view' (182)."



    "Arabesque, an aesthetic of unreadability, and narcotic associations all point back to Edgar Allan Poe, the early American Orientalist writer of horror tales and the author with whom Gilman was regularly crossed and confused in the first readings of her work. Elaine Hedges reports, 'In its time the story was read essentially as a Poe-esque tale of chilling horror,' (qtd. in Owens 67) and Walter Stetson informed Gilman that he found the story 'utterly ghastly, more horrifying than even Poe's tales of terror"'(qtd. in Haney-Peritz 95)."



    "There is a fleeting resemblance between the upstairs chamber in Gilman--with its bed nailed to the floor, its windows barred, and metal rings fixed to the walls--and Poe's evocation of the dungeon chambers of Toledo; in fact, a credible argument might be made for reading 'The Yellow Wallpaper' as Gilman's willful and purposeful misprision of [Poe's] 'Pit and the Pendulum"' (455-56). The narrator of "The Pit and the Pendulum" is imprisoned in a room, the walls of which are covered with grotesque images, monkish scrawls, 'hideous and repulsive devices,' which press in upon him and threaten annihilation (689).

    "Poe's works give wide play to the concept and image of the arabesque (there are at least two critical articles and a book on the subject): this includes proposing it as the name for one of his two types of signature tale in Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque. In Prospero's masquerade in 'The Masque of the Red Death,' there 'were arabesque figures with unsuited limbs and appointments, [...] delirious fancies such as the madman fashions' (673), while in 'The Fall of the House of Usher,' to cite one more of many references, Roderick Usher's face is said to wear an 'Arabesque expression which the narrator cannot connect 'with any idea of simple humanity' (402)."



    "In a recent article on Gilman and Poe, Gordon reads Poe's 'Ligeia' as a companion piece to 'The Yellow Wallpaper' because both tales are about women trapped in arabesque prisons. In designing a chamber for his second wife in a deserted abbey, the narrator of 'Ligeia' produces a room overscored with Oriental signifiers. Prominent among them is a pattern of arabesques against a yellow or golden background: massive-looking tapestry in the 'richest cloth of gold,' spotted over with 'arabesque figures.' And here too there is "no system, no keeping, in the fantastic display' (321-22). Gordon understands the power of this wall design to be hallucinatory, since it is the narrator's desire for Ligeia displaced onto the decor of the second wife's chamber: 'Alas, I feel how much even of incipient madness might have been discovered in the gorgeous and fantastic draperies, [...] in the wild cornices and furniture, in the Bedlam patterns of the carpets of tufted gold!' And the narrator goes on to associate this Oriental as semblage with a drug fantasy."



    "The Austrian painter Gustav Klimt designed ornamental prisons for women at the end of the nineteenth century, and his work offers striking parallels to both Poe's and Gilman's tales. Like a replay of the earlier wallpaper controversy, Klimt allows two-dimensional decorative elements to intrude into the body of his paintings: in his portraits of women particularly, Klimt plays off encroaching masses of two-dimensional ornamental design against the naturalistic figure.



    " 'The Yellow Wallpaper' was originally read as a particular type of gothic tale, a haunted house fiction. Popular during the fin-de-siecle period, one line of these tales betrays an obvious Orientalist horizon: stories set within the larger safety of a metropolis where one dwelling was disturbed by an alien sensibility, often a curse brought back from the colonies, as in W.W. Jacobs's 'Monkey's Paw.' Edith Wharton's 'Kerfol' is a haunted house story about an imprisoned wife, comforted by the gift of a 'little brown dog from the East' (286). Henry James's 'The Turn of the Screw' is a ghost story linked to the Orient. The children need a governess because they have had to be sent back to England from India where they had been living: 'He had been left, by the death of their parents in India, guardian to a small nephew and a small niece, children of a younger, a military brother, whom he had lost two years before' (11-12). Jane Eyre also fits this paradigm.

    MountainRose
    November 12, 2003 - 08:08 pm
    "I have to admit that when laypeople talk and write authoritatively about mental illness, using catchwords everyone knows like "Clinical Depression" and "Chemical Imbalance", I become exasperated and turn right off."

    Just curious, how do you know I'm a "lay people"? Does everyone actually know what those terms mean?

    Actually the medical profession uses those terms all the time. One of the ones I happen to always be struck by is when a doctor diagnoses someone as having an "adjustment disorder". Then you look at the person's chart and see that she is not only ill with several horrendous illnesses, an abusive family, no money, defiant teenagers, and she is the one with an "adjustemtn disorder"? But that's what it's called when someone does not submit to the circumstances of their life---for both men and women.

    So I think much of the difficulty has to do with language itself, and putting people in boxes, but alas, we have no other way to express what we mean.

    The story is still very muddled to me, and even though on the surface it looks like a good feminist "see I told you so" it may not be at all. If this is a true psychosis, it would have happened no matter what her husband was like.

    Just for the information, here is a definition of "Psychosis" from the Merriam Webster Dictionary: A serious mental illness (such as schizophrenia) marked by loss of or greatly lessened ability to test whether what one is feeling and thinking about the real world is really true.

    MountainRose
    November 12, 2003 - 08:10 pm
    crawling. Yes, I seem to recall having done that very same thing on many occasions. LOL

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 08:13 pm
    MOUNTAIN ROSE, is there anything in the post I wrote, to which you referred, which says I addressed it to you or any other person here? I was talking off the wall ( paper ! ) about myself, and had no one else in mind.

    EDIT:
    I just read the post and can see why you thought what you did. No, I was not talking about you. Sorry it sounded that way.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2003 - 08:39 pm
    In the second page of quotes I posted there is mentioned the reading of Poe's "Ligeia" as a companion piece to "The Yellow Wallpaper". Below is a link to the complete text of Poe's story.

    Ligeia by Edgar Allan Poe

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 12, 2003 - 09:26 pm
    we have more degrees, but less sense;
    more knowledge, but less judgment;
    more experts, more problems, more medicine, but less wellness.
    We talk too much, love too seldom;
    we've added years to life, not life to years.

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 06:18 am
    Thank you, Phyll, I appreciate that, and you. Before I get to your (almost 100 posts!!) that have sprung up since I last posted, (sorry we had the phone lines cut here) I do want to say this and it might surprise you?

    Everybody who puts up a book discussion here in our SeniorNet Books has a different goal, each time. It might surprise you to hear we even have any goals other than reading a book together, and that IS the goal of many DL's.

    I have my own goals, and in many ways I am considering this discussion to be almost perfect for my own purpose?

    We may not be linking arms and swaying to Auld Lang Syne but that was not my goal.

    We may not all agree, in fact I disagree quite strongly with some of the points made here, but almost all of you have produced THE MOST incredible points, opinions and views that are good enough to frame (we really SHOULD have done an Annotated Wallpaper!) YOU are just GOOD? You're just good. Some of you have shared some searing life experiences and thus enriched our own understanding of the problem in the text, we thank you.

    You also offered up what I think must be the greatest range of opinion I have ever seen on one work? You brought in critical sources on literary theory, on background, on biograhpy, on history.

    You differed in opinion but you kept it cordial? It's not easy to spend time reflecting, come out with what you really feel, and see it shot down, cordially, by another: discussing a book takes guts, you have to be honest, with yourself and with others. I loved Maryal's statement there about being honest and doing the work of thinking and not just projecting, but really trying to get at what the author has said in the piece. I think if you do that, then when you leave, you will have learned something? It may only be one tiny thing, but if you have learned ONE tiny thing in this discussion you did not know 13 days ago, it's a success? But you have done even more.

    You have broken all our records for posting, for people looking at the discussion, for HTML pages produced in 11 days, for numbers in a book discussion. And you have done something else, too. By being open to the fact that a discussion of literary theory IS admissible and DOES count, even in a short story, in ANY discussion of literature, you have, unwittingly, fulfilled my own goal, and there's nothing more I can ask. I went out of town yesterday thinking, for my purposes, and maybe mine alone, despite the sad and troubling nature of the subject matter, this has been an almost perfect discussion of a piece, and YOU are the ones who brought it about. YOU.

    And if you are thinking well this was a sad story and a sad life, kind of makes me sad, then come visit us in our exploration of proof there IS a morning after, and an unheard of opportunity to TALK to people who have come out in the light: the subject of bondage and being trapped and imprisoned and what happens to a person when that happens is the subject we're about to take up in December in Wally Lamb's book Couldn't Keep it to Myself, Wally Lamb and the Women of York Correctional Institution: Testimonies From Our Imprisoned Sisters which will start December 1.

    Wally Lamb did not need to write this book? He's famous, he was a two times NY Times best-selling author? He's won prizes, his work is now being required at universities for incoming Freshmen, he's got another new book in the works they say is out of this world, he does NOT need this, but he volunteers, just like we do here on SN just like you do here when you write your thoughts, at a prison, he got INTO the situation, knowing nothing about it, and then it changed his life. The proceeds of his book Couldn't Keep it to Myself are donated to the 11 women writers and a shelter for battered women.

    Wally Lamb will be coming, live, into our discussion of his book, TWICE to speak to our readers, he will answer questions and he will answer questions at the end of the book. SEVERAL of the women writers will be coming in to talk to us there, daily, if I understand that correctly. As we have just taken up how it feels to be imprisoned, I do hope and urge each of you fine people, with your wonderful spirits, to join us in that discussion, I believe it will change some lives, there is no telling where you can take it or what we might learn and accomplish: please consider joining IT,

    and the one time PBS broadcast on December 16, POV: What I Want My Words to do to You, about another women's correctional facility, another writing project (by the famous playwright Eve Ensler of the "Vagina Monologues" on Broadway) and give us your thoughts there as well, I'm regarding that as an A/V adjunct of the Wally Lamb discussion, and I really would KILL to have you all in either. WE are the online discussion site for PBS and the Program Clubs? Help us make it a success?

    If you live in a country where the PBS POV TV show will not be shown, the website will provide you with enough material to read for a year, come join us? We need all of YOU, after what you made out of this? We need all of YOU.

    I am extremely satisfied with this discussion, it has met all of my goals and then some, and I want to thank ALL of you for your input. Now I want to address each of your points, we will make our final posts tomorrow (I still have to find Irony in my Game here) and the floor is now open for your parting shots!

    I'm going to go out on a limb, find Hats, and say John was bullheaded and misguided and the point was that he, in his fainting, showed, (in this story if not in her own life) that he did care but misfired in the case of his own wife, by pooh poohing and turning a blind eye until it was too late: people don't faint when their goals are achieved, they faint out of shock. I don't trust all she said and I think when you consider what the treatment would have been in a real mental institution of the time, she is very well cared for, she's not sitting in her own wastes (hopefully) ignored.

    But I will have to say that Page 12 is pretty much a masterpiece of fine writing, and she did a super job of letting us IN for a minute into her imprisoned world, like Narrator, I want to get out, too. Hahaahahah Into the sun.

    Come into the Wally Lamb and see another more positive ending? Come see what ex prisoners can make of their lives, and the true stories it may surprise you, it will enlighten you, you will come away different. In this season where I'm already stressed about making the "perfect" wreath brioche they seem to think in the magazines I must do, and finding the "perfect gift," even the TV commercials are overwhelming, such flash and glitter and underlying expectations do they bring, such frenetic activity: let's take a quiet minute for those less fortunate this holiday season, lest we, like Scrooge, end up looking at them out the window with Marley's Ghost standing at our side, wishing we had done more. Do come?come meet them face to face. Come meet Wally Lamb? You WILL have something to talk about over the table besides the fallen souffle! ahahaha

    more….

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 07:23 am
    Oh gosh where does the time go, have exactly 20 minutes before I leave for Mobile Meals but will give this a beginning shot!

    Maryal fascinating submission from the OED, hahaha I love that thing but don't want to pay for it, so have an old one with much yellowed pages, thank you, our Resource!

    wonderful point Maryal on she has been doing the creeping for a long time and the analogy to a CHILD, super point.

    Mountain Rose, I know what you meant by wallowing, I use it the same way and that's how I think of it and what I do actually, I give myself over to a day or two of pure wallowing, feels good, sometimes, and then try to move on. Good point on the roses in the garden, and I love your point on people forcing themselves to do something and it changing the chemistry in the brain, super point. Oh golly look at this one Was there another woman trapped in that room at one time, and with her sensitivities she picked up on that and subsequently became that woman? Oh dear what a super question I never thought of that, up in the heading it goes!

    Malryn I like the sandwich analogy, hahaaha. I think I need to add some Dijon to it, tho. Ahahaha

    And while nothing Dr. Weinstock talks about is NEW it does bear repeating so that each participant can feel his own opinions are on an equal par with anybody else's, we always have people questioning "delving," or looking for symbolism or literary devices, or falling for authorial intention and we need to be sure everybody knows and if it takes an outside expert for us to listen, good for him and us.

    Mountain Rose, I do think Dr. Weir's treatment was different, actually, there are some similarities and I guess these are the ones that irritated Gilman so she put them in this piece.

    Mountain Rose, an interesting point on feminism today and then, the feminist POV is certainly a valid one for the story.

    Faith I like your emphasis on "create," she sure did that and in wonderful style, I am not sure, did it say Dr. Weir was directing her treatment? I thought her husband was, I could be wrong, didn't he threaten her with Dr. Weir ?(super bedside manner, huh?) But again we know threats are made out of panic and fear, too, so…. I'm not sure, where do we ALL stand on John as of today??

    I completely missed the homosexuality!

    I agree, Barbara, how they got well is the part we all want to hear, and I hope some of you will join me over in the Wally Lamb and hear some real life endings!

    Andrea, love that quote, thank you and I agree with you on what the reader gets out of the story!

    Marvelle, AY I was not meaning to distill, Barb! And Marvelle, but rather say what it seems like to ME you're saying (and I am almost always wrong) so don't go on MEEE.

    Babi, it's amazing how far we have come, I noted Cheryl talking about dormitories and curfews for women (we must have gone to the same college) and "ladylike," I, too , hope I have achieved a better balance, but I am afraid that inner child dies hard.

    Maryn thank you for the Anderson article on homosexuality, it's kind of reaching, I think, but it's novel as well, thank you. I'm interested in his referring to himself as a "queer reader." I can 't go look and still keep on this page, is it written recently?

    Anneo, your post made my day, I'm going to contact Dr. Weinstock and see if he's interested in what we're doing here, and see if we can get something worked out!

    Well I'm out of time but what a wonderful time it was, and I only have 44 posts to go, but they are MEATY I read them this morning so can't WAIT and while doing Mobile Meals I can think over what you've said (anybody want to help me with IRONY?) You get a prize if you do?

    hahahaha

    ginny

    judywolfs
    November 13, 2003 - 08:48 am
    Mal, thank you for the link to the dramatization. And, I think I found the answer to your question on the use of "Anne!" I copied it below, having found it on the Scribbling Women website at http://www.scribblingwomen.org/cgsynop.cfm

    But first, My goodness, from your 439 post, I gather that yellow wallpaper (the actual wallpaper, not the story) was already notorious in the early 1900s. Who knew.

    Also, I must say that I don't agree with the feminist interpretation of this piece. I especially take issue with the notion that a woman turning utterly insane could possibly represent any kind of victory or struggle for freedom.

    In my opinion, the wife completely disassociates from all reality, including her own "Jane" identity. At the last line of the story, I am left with a picture of her as a small, mangy animal trotting desperately around and around it's cage; or even as a mechanized wind-up creeping machine, with no consciousness or control over its movements. It makes me feel strangly guilty and harsh that I don't even see a spark of human-ness left to her. ICK! I'm glad the story is ended.

    NOW, from the Scribbling Women website, here's the explanation of the use of "Anne:"
    >>Synopsis When the story begins, Anne* and her husband, John, are traveling to an isolated country estate for a summer vacation....
  • For dramatic purposes in the Scribbling Women adaptation of "The Yellow Wallpaper" our playwright, Laura Harrington, chose to give the name of "Anne" to Gilman's 'narrator'<<<<


  • JudyW

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2003 - 09:41 am
    Maybe the playwright and others who have used "Anne" for the narrator's name (and I've seen many) meant "Anne" for "Anonymous". I'm not sure her name was "Jane" either.

    I don't see victory in this story, JUDY. Yeah, it looks as if yellow wallpaper had a bad rep with more people than just Charlotte Perkins Gilman. I thought what was said in that article about the hallucinatory effects of arabesque and scenic wallpaper was extremely interesting. The blue on white scenic Chinese print on the walls of the dining room in the house where I grew up always made me feel terrible -- just like the pattern on Blue Willow plates. I react negatively to that even today. I think Gilman was one smart cookie when she used all these Gothic horror devices when she wrote this story.

    Mal

    Faithr
    November 13, 2003 - 10:56 am
    Mals posts re:effects of wallpaper, and attitudes towards wallpaper, have now reminded me of something about my mother I had completely forgotten. She was born in 1898 so was of the generation that would have some people who were publishing these ideas that wall paper was undesirable. One time I ask her to help me choose wallpaper for a house I was decorating and she wouldn't. Plus gave me a lecture on how awful wall paper was.

    She said," Why the worst memory of being eleven living in ****'s house and my bedroom had a awful pattern of geometric repeating shapes. I would go crazy counting the same shapes, matching shapes , and it would change and change. I had to get under the covers to escape.!!!!"

    So I chose my own paper and it provided a happy kitchen for a long time. Faith

    MountainRose
    November 13, 2003 - 11:58 am
    a movie called, "The Wide Sargasso Sea". I think it was Mal who mentioned Jane Eyre somewhere, and we probably all remember the locked-up mad wife in the attic in the house where Jane was governess. Well, "The Wide Sargasso Sea" is a prequel to Jane Eyre, and is about who that woman in the attic was and why she went crazy. It was a fascinating viewpoint and in a way fits right in with this story; and, I think, would make a much better feminist platform than this story does.

    There is also a book out called "The Secret Diary of Anne Boylin" which gives a totally different viewpoint of Anne and her relationship to Henry VIII. Love stuff like that with a different viewpoint. I heard there is one out about the Three Witches in MacBeth also, given from their particular viewpoint. If anyone knows the name of that book, please let me know.

    ALF
    November 13, 2003 - 12:26 pm
    Oh my gosh, I've seen the Wide Sargossa Sea. I loved that movie but never once thought of it while reading this short story.

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 12:54 pm
    Wide Sargasso Sea, amazing, Mountain Rose, I would never have thought of that, I think we need to get up a list for the Reader's Guide we've just written, when this is over, and include all the references you cited, fabulous.

    Ok my job was to find in this short story a literary term known as Irony. Here is the definition of Irony in literature (from http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm#i)
    Irony: a literary term referring to how a person, situation, statement, or circumstance is not as it would actually seem. Many times it is the exact opposite of what it appears to be.

    *** How many of you have said it's possible that the Narrator is unreliable and things are not as she has depicted?***

    There are many types of irony, the three most common being verbal irony, dramatic irony, and cosmic irony.

    Verbal irony occurs when either the speaker means something totally different than what he is saying or the audience realizes, because of their knowledge of the particular situation to which the speaker is referring, that the opposite of what a character is saying is true. Dramatic irony occurs when facts are not known to the characters in a work of literature but are known by the audience. Cosmic irony suggests that some unknown force brings about dire and dreadful events.

    I'm going out on a limb here and say that Cosmic Irony was being hinted at , from the get go, Narrator hinted that the house was haunted, she talked about people in the wallpaper and the personification of many of the inanimate elements of the story, (and hid it with her own admission of "childish" (there's that word again) practices. The more deranged she became the more animate certain aspects of the room became, but I'm going to say that she did not succeed in her intended irony with the reader (did she?) and instead, indicted herself, ironically, in a Verbal Irony, in that several of you have identified her as an "Unreliable Narrator," even tho we sympathize with her. I definitely see motive here, I don't know whose, and the last two pages, with their confusing women out/in/coming out…ropes....when I think about this story, all I can think is it's an indictment of marriage, maybe along with, some (but not necessarily Dr. Weir Mitchell's actual treatment) of the practices (no diversion, quiet for the patient, no writing, no conversation) of the day and the really ironic thing to me is I believe John tried to help (like a lot of medical practitioners do, I just today heard another horrific story of a stent left in a kidney and forgotten) but ironically he caused the problem. I think that's the irony in the story, and that, ironically, he caused the very problem he was trying to fix.

    Killed by kindness, maybe.

    It seems to me that the story is FULL of Irony and I love this game, do any of you see any more??

    more….

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 01:08 pm
    And those of you who have mentioned what the wallpaper might symbolize, here are some more from Paula Treichler's essay, "Escaping the Sentence," how many have we missed?
    "The Yellow Wallpaper" was read by nineteenth-century readers as a harrowing case study of neurasthenia. Even recent readings have treated the narrator's madness as a function of her individual psychological situation. A feminist reading emphasizes the social and economic conditions which drive the narrat0r—and potentially all women—to madness. In these reading the yellow wallpaper represents
  • the narrator's own mind
  • the narrator's unconscious
  • the "pattern" of social and economic dependence which reduces women to domestic slavery. The woman in the wallpaper represents
  • the narrator herself, gone mad
  • the narrator's unconscious
  • all women,
  • women's writing or women's discourse and the woman in the wallpaper to be the representation of women that becomes possible only after women obtain the right to speak. In this reading the yellow wallpaper stands for a new vision of women—one which is constructed differently from the representation of women in patriarchal language. The story is thus in part about the clash between two modes of discourse, one powerful, "ancestral, " and dominant; the other new, "impertinent" and visionary. The wallpaper is also seen as representing
  • the "pattern" which underlies sexual inequality," and a whole lot more.


  • In actual life Gilman left her husband which made her sort of a shunned figure, in this story Narrator walks literally over her husband, all over her husband, over and over sort of triumphantly, (like the woman in Texas did with her Mercedes). I think there's something else there too, but don't know what.

    Marvelle
    November 13, 2003 - 01:18 pm
    GINNY, I don't think we missed any of those points. Collectively, we touched on them all.

    Gilman herself studied art and after art school, she taught and designed greeting cards. Her first husband, the one she left, was an artist. Perhaps the art terms and the narrator's defiance of the artistic terminology is another rebellion against the control at that time of men over the arts (writing, art etc).

    Marvelle

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 01:29 pm


    Barbara, by the way, what does your Spanish tag line mean??

    Plyll in the Grocery, our new motto in the Books!!! Hahaha LOVE those differing view points so well articulated, I agree here, "Whether she hated her doctor or her husband or the medical profession or men in general is difficult to decide." Maybe she hated all of them at different times, I'm definitely seeing resentment here against the husband, cloaked in the Verbal Irony the site had (they quoted Antony's constant saying that "Brutus was an honorable man," while proving otherwise and isn't that exactly what Narrator did to our John? Now when he wakes up, what will happen, I wonder?

    Mountain Rose (we're at the end or I'd ask if I could call you something shorter!) you say Youth is Wasted on the young, what is YOUR opinion of the effect this piece might have on a young reader? Versus us old folks?

    gosh on your experience with the board, and haaah on your if you're not complete I can't help you haahaa. I really liked your take on the "filters" we all use.

    Scrawler, oh good point on what the women of the 1800s had in the way of an arsenal to express themselves, and as we've seen, even she had a time getting it published!

    Horeselover, I agree, it's a fabulous story, and it really has hit a lot of nerves. Haaha on the server needed, and thank you for that comparison of what was available to her then (do you think that she would be OK now, I know somebody else said in a short time modern medicines would have cured her? Do you all think that??

    I agree Annafair, I, too, need to take notes and it WAS a truly great discussion, don't you love the way these thoughts everybody has expressed have crept into OUR own thinking, love that, one giant brain. Oh and you are with the "madness as an escape," well it certainly allowed her to literally walk all over him, huh?

    Malryn thank you for your interpretations of what the symbols in the wallpaper might mean! I did like YOUR takes on what the creeping over John might mean, and you are right, she does NOT try to push him out of the way and that IS interesting, she sure pushed at the bed, tore the wallpaper, why do you think she did not push HIM??

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 01:48 pm
    Oh GOOD point Malryn on the key!! Locked the door and threw away the key! But told him where it is?!?

    I don't have an Anne in any of my texts so can't address that issue but I have enjoyed the explanation of why others have used it, thank you.

    OH my goodness you are absolutely right, it IS patent, thank you for that head's UP!! I saw and wrote PATIENT (some transference there or filter? Many thanks for straitening that out)!! Sharp eyes!! Oh good point on Question #!, you don't see anything positive in the end, what do those of you who have not addressed this PATENT question ahahahah think!

    Yeah and Malryn on the "admirable exercise," did you notice how many times she used the word "exercise" (ahem) IRONICALLY? Hahahaha

    OH well done on the gnawed bed of MARRIAGE, boy oy boy, she chewed IT up tho it made her mouth hurt and she walked on him and I'd say she did him right? Poor guy.

    Babi, You need to make us one of your crosswords about this thing? That would be light and whimsical? (Babi is a Crossword maker extraordinaire!) Wouldn't THAT be fun? No peeking at the text?

    Maryal thank you for restoring my sanity, the ONLINE has patient, well no wonder I could not make any sense out of it!

    GREAT speculation on Jane, I gave up on the names women I did not know. Who is JANE!!?? Is that in the heading, if not let's put it there?

    Thank you so much Maryal for the entire typing of Gilman's own breakdown it's very interesting and has added a lot to our understanding here, especially to see the whole thing (I quit a long time typing before you did!) THANK you!

    Judy, how many times is JANE mentioned? (Have you noticed the plethora of J names in this thing)? The only one I can find is "I've got out at last, " said I, "in spite of you and Jane. And I've pulled off most of the paper, so you can't put me back!" Well if Jane were the name of John's inamorata, and Narrator knew it, the revelation of that to John (in addition to the creeping) might cause him to faint, too? Or?

    Great point Judy on Narrator being Jane!

    Mountain Rose, thank you for the details of your own experience with uinpolar and bipolar depression, so the sunlight actually affects it? Is that like SAD?

    hahaah JUDY!! Hahahaha HAHAHAHA Judy you noticed spots and smooches and you were CREEPING! Hahahahahaah HAHAHAHAAHAH Life imitates Art! I would kill for a photo of your shadow, how funny!!

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 02:09 pm
    running out of colors but never ceasing to marvel at what you all have said!

    SNAKES, Malryn! Oh I like that, snakes!

    Scrawler, yes these last two pages are full of imagery, wonderful masterful writing. Absolutely right on the roller coaster, tho we had intimations from the minute the car started that skullduggery was afoot, kind of like a Disney ride haahahaha on your escape!

    WE are so enjoying you in our discussions, do plan to stay a long time!

    Thank you for the dramatization, Malryn, I'm flummoxed over the name Anne and cannot address it (I'm still trying to address "patient," hahahaaha.

    I have enjoyed it, too, Phyll! VERY much so!

    Marvelle with the allegory, well done! AHA on the "independent narrator, how many times are we hearing from her? Are you saying they merged so when the independent narrator speaks we hear it thru Narrator now?

    So why is she hung up on it not being proper to jump? (not that she could get thru the bars, who said it was obviously not a nursery but an asylum (sorry) I think you're right!

    WHOOO on what the narrator is doing with the ROPES! Well done!! HOO on the comparison with the marital ring! THANK you for those and all the rest of them, also!

    Ginger, thank you VERY much for those kind words I agree with you!

    Malryn thank you for the references to wallpaper, fascinating, especially the Oscar Wilde!

    I also appreciate your writing the bulk of them out, some of us with these 28.8 ISP's do well to even click here, thank you.

    And thank you for the reference to Ligeia, did somebody mention the Fall of the House of Usher as well?

    Ella Gibbons wrote me about the new biography of Katharine Hepburn that
    Thought you might be interested in two references to Charlotte Perkins Gilman. Kate Hepburn, the mother, and her sister Edith are discussing methods of child discipline and Edith quotes Gilman defining obedience as follows: "the subordination of the intellect and the abrogation of the will." Mrs. Hepburn was very active in the women's movements - the vote, birth control and the ERA and at one conference she was on the platform with Amelia Earhart and Charlotte Perkins Gilman.


    And Ella concludes with the idea of how amazing it is that so many times we see references to literature we've read, aren't we proud we did read this?

    Thank you Barbara for that wonderful poem, is it yours?

    Did you write it because of this discussion?

    Faith, for heaven's sake, what a memory this has uncovered, apparently those old wallpapers and we have seen some samples were pretty strong, (Well, I myself picked out a lovely or so I thought fruit and flowers for our last kitchen? But once it was UP the fruit and flowers took OVER the kitchen, you literally could not stop looking at it!! "Busy, " people would say when they came over, BUSY! If all you had to look at WAS that wallpaper you might obsess. Have any of us said she was obsessive at all? Thank you for that wallpaper memory!

    HO!!! HO!!! HO Saith the Horse! I'm caught up!@! YES!!

    WHAT a rare pleasure THAT was!

    Now you have one half day (today) and tomorrow to say your final piece. IS there ANY question in the heading (besides the patently awful patient one? Hahahaah) that you would like to address? IS there any question you would like to ask? What's on YOUR mind here?

    Those of you reading this for the first time, what's your final assessment?

    Those of you reading this for the one billionth time, did you see anything new in it?

    Ginny
    November 13, 2003 - 02:15 pm
    YES we did touch on all them, Marvelle, and note how we did MORE~! hahaha Yes layers analogies yes Irony yes indeed, we did it! We should write our own book (which I have said many a time!) So how about that tricky little question 5? !?

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 13, 2003 - 02:49 pm
    hmmm #5 I would say "I would call when I woke" and to me she never wakes except as someone whose body wakes but her mind is gone...her work is done and like the Palestinian women who sleeps all day in her silent American apartment saying there is nothing left to clean - well our writer or Joan has let her deman's out, the women in the paper is her - there is no more paper - she pulled it off the wall to let the women out - now she not only identifying with the paper but with the solution within the paper that she alone was bound and determained to find - in her mind she is the secret which she determained is a woman that creeps, rattles hehehe and rolls?

    I am imagining she must look a fright if she were up all night and all day removing the last of the paper - no word of indoor plumbing so not only is the chamber pot full but there was probably no more water in the pitcher to wash and tidy before John is finally in the room...

    Yep, wife a fright, circles under her eyes, stinky, and all the paper in shreds all over the room - on top of it all is the realization his cure didn't work and this is his wife -- I would faint as well -- but it works as an image for the story so that her madness triumphs over his discounting her requests as having little to no value.

    Not only do I get an image of her as if planting a flag after a battle but also, crawling over him reminds me of a thousand ants crawling - as if the ants represented so many women who have been discounted - or - so many thread ends, specks, ants, to address when the goal is sanity and if these thread ends are ignored, one by one they add up like a line of marching ants till you are mad. We could look again and count the number of times her wishes were discounted - her needs that instinctively she knew that would keep her sane - society has only learned in recent years how important it is to listen to your gut and follow your instincts in order to do the best thing for yourself.

    OK next to my name in spanish is an old proverb, "conversation is food for the soul." and below, at the start of that post I say, "less is more." - this story at only 12 pages was the beginning of my realizing how true - less is more.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2003 - 03:02 pm
    Regardless what possible allegorical meaning "The Yellow Wallpaper" might have (and I've become convinced that almost anything written can have allegorical meaning if readers try hard enough to find it), this story is a very strong statement about mental illness.

    Charlotte Perkins Gilman's propensity toward mental illness did not end when she left her first husband and gave away her child. She carried it with her the rest of her life. So probably would the narrator in "The Yellow Wallpaper". In other words, it was not marriage and/or male dominance per se which caused Gilman's psychotic attacks, though they may have aggravated them.

    It is possible through pyschoanalysis and psychotherapy and drug therapy to relieve neurotic attacks, such as those simple postpartum depression can produce, enough that the symptoms do not recur. Anyone who suffers a serious psychotic episode like the lead character in this story is very apt to have others. There are some who believe that the seeds for such illnesses are in some people, male or female, when they are born.

    It is appalling to realize how little is known about the brain and mental illness. The term, "Schizophrenia", is loosely used to cover any number of symptoms and illnesses. What is not known about Schizophrenia is amazing. Very, very little is known about what causes this condition of total loss of reality. The brain and the illnesses of it remain a mystery, even in this day and age of technology with its great advances of science.

    I am of the belief that attitudes about mental illness, fear of it, and lack of acceptance that such things exist, keep funding for very necessary research about what causes mental illnesses extremely low. There are no real cures for chronic Schizophrenia. The medications prescribed subdue symptoms so the victims of this disease are able to function in varying degrees of capability, but they never cure the disease.

    In point of fact, I am not unwilling to say that there have not yet been found any real cures for any serious mental illness. With mental illness that does not cause the patient to lose sight of reality, despite obsessions that he or she might have, psychoanalysis, psychotherapy and drug therapy will work if the patient is willing to undergo the emotional pain that such treatment can bring. Many are often unable or unwilling to do this, so the symptoms continue.

    In my opinion, Charlotte Perkins Gilman did a real service for humanity when she wrote "The Yellow Wallpaper." It's time we all looked hard at mental illness and the effects it has. I believe most of the terrible crimes we hear about, for which the perpetrator is incarcerated in prison and not hospitalized or treated for his or her condition, are caused by mental illness.

    Because I feel as strongly as I do about how mental illness is viewed and approached by Society, I think "The Yellow Wallpaper" is much more important as a difficult-to-read-and-understand statement about mental illness than it is as a Feminist view of how women are subjugated by men. Books and stories on that painful topic are a dime a dozen. Books and stories about serious mental illness are very few.

    I applaud Charlotte Perkins Gilman for writing this example of mental illness in the day she wrote it. It took a great deal of courage and strength for her, a woman, to do what she did in the 19th century or any time.

    Mal

    MountainRose
    November 13, 2003 - 03:30 pm
    more than it is about feminism. I also agree that the mental illness may have been triggered by the postpartum depression and the treatment of "doing nothing" helped it progress very rapidly. Seen in that light, I do think it took a lot of courage to write this, and seen in that light I also think it's a good story, whereas it isn't from the feminism point of view (just my opinion, and I think that may have been why I was impatient with it in the beginnin, because I felt it was really about something else!)

    Ginny, as far your question of: "what is YOUR opinion of the effect this piece might have on a young reader? Versus us old folks?" I'm not really sure, but I have the feeling that most young readers would take this story as a "feminism" piece and miss the real point that is being made about mental illness. It's just easier to point the finger and blame and also be politically correct, than it is to look at something that's this frightening.

    It's been a fascinating discussion. Thank you ladies!

    Lou2
    November 13, 2003 - 03:50 pm
    This is the first time I've read The Yellow Wallpaper. I hate short stories... I just get started on a great story and it's finished. This time I'm so thankful it's a short story. I could never have lasted through more. I try to be careful because images stay with me forever. I've watch one movie based on a Stephen King book and never read him. Haunting is the one word I'd use for this story. You all have done a masterful job seeing everything there is to see here. I have read each and every post and appreciate all of the thought that has gone into each one. I so appreciate the importance of reading and writing about mental illness. Thank you to each of you for your stories and insights.

    Lou

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 13, 2003 - 04:00 pm
    Vicki Vera shared this poem in the poetry pages and I just had to bring it here to everyone's attention - thinking on mental illness or anyone that is living less then their true nature is like hiding behind a mask - the Title of the poem sounds like our writer in the Yellow Wallpaper "Please Hear What I Am Not Saying" by Charles Finn was 16 when he wrote the poem...

    http://www.poetrybycharlescfinn.com/pleasehear.html

    Phyll
    November 13, 2003 - 04:01 pm
    This was not the first time I read this story. It had a profound and lasting effect on me when I first read it and it did again this time. To me it has always been about a woman's spiral into insanity and only that. The feminist angle was never of any importance to my personal view of the story and the homosexuality tie never even occurred to me until it was mentioned this time in some link to some other writing somewhere. That really flummoxed me! I personally think it is ridiculous. But, that is my personal opinion and I am disputing no one. All along I have tried to keep things in context. I have tried really hard to keep in mind how different it was in Gilman's time. Society was different, marriage customs were different, the medical profession was different, the understanding of mental illness (or lack of understanding) was different than it is now. I tried very hard to not judge Gilman's story by today's standards. And yet, even in our so-called enlightened age, this is still one of the most provocative stories that stirs all kinds of deep emotions in women, as we have definitely seen here, over a century later. I don't think from a literary standpoint it is a perfect story, there are lots of little unexplained "sticking points" in my mind and as an author I think Gilman manipulated us to make her point but then, that's what authors do, isn't it, for one reason or another? But I have the greatest admiration for her. She had to have been a pretty tough old broad to have dared to have gotten her message out against the accepted medical theory of the day and to go against the ruling (masculine) class of the time. I would love to talk to her now and hear what she thinks of the stir that her little short story still makes all these years later.

    Senior Net has had some great Books discussions---this ranks as one of the best, I think.

    anneofavonlea
    November 13, 2003 - 04:05 pm
    if less is more, what does that say about our numerous posts.

    This story seriously upset my equilibrium, and the comments were excellent. Like Lou, I cannot easily leave, almost in spite of myself.Thank you everyone for a watershed experience.

    Anneo

    Barbara St. Aubrey
    November 13, 2003 - 04:14 pm
    hehehe I think the story was the less that prompted more posts filled with more and more thoughts...

    Traude S
    November 13, 2003 - 04:28 pm
    Desperately trying to catch up after being off line for 24 hours, I may have missed some points in your last posts. I will go back and check, though.

  • I am grateful for GINNY's posting the informative links and feel definitely reassured since I have always keenly thought that a reader could not possibly ever know for sure what an author had in mind precisely (unless he/she was there to talk about it).

    A number of years ago my (non military) family was transferred to New England and America's Home Town of 1620 fame where I set about founding a branch of AAUW = American Association of University Women - a difficult, long undertaking. (I first joined AAUW in Virginia in 1967.) A book group was the first interest group we had.

    One evening's discussion of "The Golden Notebook" by Doris Lessing stands out in my memory : A participant insisted passionately and argued vehemently at (embarrassingly) great length that she knew precisely why Doris Lessing had written such and such in the book. Well, Doris Lessing wasn't there to confirm or to set the record straight. I must admit to having been taken aback by the heat of this discussion because I've always avoided belligerence and sought harmony instead.

  • If I may say, we get out of a book, any book, what we perceive and also what we BRING TO IT and should not unilaterally decide what the author had in mind. I mean how could we ? In the case of our short, short story, Gilman projects the narrator and lets her talk about what happens to her. Reliable narrator ? Unreliable narrator ? Does it matter ? Message ?

    Even without knowing anything about the author and her revolutionary (for her time) ideas it is impossible to overlook the fact that the narrator in the story was a 'victim'. But is there really the message of feminist grievance ?

    I've read the story umpteen times but never once saw homoerotic connotations. And I am totally mystified by "Jane".

    As I see it, the story describes the inevitable descent into madness of a woman whose mental capacity was impaired when she first arrived in the secluded 'mansion' and is b ecoming ever more delusional. Nothing she says in her journal can be taken at face value. In the end, reality and symbol hurtle into each other and, as much as we'd like to see hope, I'm afraid I see none.

  • Marvelle
    November 13, 2003 - 04:49 pm
    Phyll, don't be flummoxed by the mention of homosexuality. It was first mentioned by Ginny (I think) who said how the essays by scholars disagreed, were all over the map, on what the story was about. Some said it was feminist, some said it was mental illness, and one scholar said it was homosexuality. (I'm condensing here for brevity's sake.)

    Ginny, said she didn't see homosexuality in the story. Then someone else posted a link to, or else quoted the essay about homosexuality. (Link or quote, I'm not sure because I didn't read it.) But no one in this discussion has said, so far at least, that they see any connection between the story and homosexuality. Someone says I don't see it, and then another person says 'I don't see it' but no one here has said 'I see it' that I'm aware of.

    The surface of the story is clearly about a woman's descent into madness. The literary techniques add depth and enhanced meaning and makes for an interesting read. I believe in respecting an author and the work enough to look closely at what is being said and done. The fact that we all see different things in the story is wonderful.

    The allegory of a woman moving from dependence in society to independence is intriguing. Gilman also wrote Herland, about a society of women - run by women - and that story is available online for independent reading.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2003 - 04:55 pm
    If curing serious mental illness were as easy as the removing of a mask as suggested by the poem BARBARA linked, we'd have very little crime, and we'd all be healthy, wealthy and sane.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2003 - 05:06 pm
    If someone could tell me how an obviously insane woman who is creeping around a floor littered with wallpaper and the prostrate body of her husband has moved from dependence to independence I'd really like to know.

    I know, I know, it's the allegory. I'd believe it if she showed even one small sign of sanity.

    HERLAND

    Marvelle
    November 13, 2003 - 05:08 pm
    TRAUDE, it matters in any story - deciding if the narrator is reliable or unreliable. If a reader can't trust the narrator's journal, then she's unreliable.

    From mapage.noos.fr: "The unreliable narrator can be a child, one with limited knowledge, or limited mental capacity, or with a reason to fool readers or itself. The result is that the readers must look beyond for clues in the narration [text] that let us know what is going on."

    I remember that we talked about the literary technique of Unreliable Narrator in the discussion of Remains of the Day -- what a UN is and why, and looking closely at the text since we couldn't trust the narrator. I believe we've done that also, taken a close look, in this discussion.

    I like these comments: TRAUDE "In the end, reality and symbol hurtle into each other...." and PHYLL says that with the end of the story "there are lots of little unexplained 'sticking points' in my mind..."

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2003 - 06:50 pm
    GINNY posted about Professor Westcott's book about "The Yellow Wallpaper", written for teachers. (I'm not sure that's his name, and I can't find her post.) It was he who mentioned homoeroticism in this story. I did some searches to see if I could find out more about it, and found an article by a homosexual, who had analyzed the story. I don't believe any of us agreed with his premise, or that anyone here found homoeroticism in "The Yellow Wallpaper." That doesn't mean that homoeroticism isn't there; we just haven't seen it.

    I believe GINNY asked about Question # 5. This is difficult because the online version linked above does not have the same page endings as the original version in the New England Magazine which MARYAL linked. One thing I noticed is that for pages the Narrator has wanted to get out of the room with the yellow wallpaper. From Page 11 on, she doesn't want to leave that room. Her voice is different from before, it seems to me, and if her name really is JANE, she's addressing herself in the third person. Just incidentally, for what it's worth, many schizophrenics talk about themselves in the third person when they are deep in the throes of a psychotic episode, and very often the sound, pitch and timbre of their voices change.

    Mal

    Faithr
    November 13, 2003 - 08:55 pm
    When I read Ginny's post re: Professor Westcott's premise of homosexuality and auto eroticism in the story I immediately thought he was taking the theory of "repression" and making a particular out of a general symptom in the story; that this woman was repressing years of unfulfilled needs. I think repression of an ego's wants and needs often lead's to all kinds of difficulty coping with society and husbands and all kinds of inter personal relationships.

    But I think this kind of psychotic episode as the "unreliable narrator" has inadvertantly described would not be anything other than Schizophrenia and that is not caused just by such things as repression as far as I have read..but by genetic predisposition, injury and or chemical imbalance.

    The reason I think Gillman is such a good writer (at least in this story) is the fact that she has described so clearly this break with reality. I have not seen literature on anxiety/depression disorders that indicate such breaks with reality.

    My own bouts with depression were finally DX as reactive depression with out a chemical basis which is why with time and effort I learned to cope as an adult, not a needy child and to be responsible for my own health and wellbeing.I no longer needed my own drug of choice, alcohol nor any medication from M.D.'s and have not suffered any more bouts of depression for many years.

    Still my time in the hospital and in treatment for the recurring drinking bouts taught me that there is such variety in the actions you see of mental patients that even when they are diagnosed with the same illness you would not know it from objective observation.

    I do wonder where Gillman got her insight into this kind of break with reality since the literature postulates postpartum depression as her problem.

    Scrawler
    November 13, 2003 - 09:11 pm
    The END! If Charlotte Perkins Gilman wanted to write a story in which she warned others about the faults of mental health treatment in the 1800s, then it is my opinion that she fell short of her quest. On the other hand if she just wanted to write a good story with emphasizes on horrific imagery (I mean this in a good way) and emotional upheaval I think than that she succeeded. It truly was a great and enjoyable story if you like this type of storytelling. I think Malryn stated it best - if you want to learn about how mental patients are treated you don't ask a mental patient.

    I think the fact that John fainted adds to the evidence that this was just an interesting story. It would not be logical to have John faint at the end of the story if he indeed were trying to drive her insane. Thinking from a writer's standpoint it would not be true to his character. If anything he would have been gloating that he had succeeded. Of course, there might be the fact that he suddenly realized he had succeeded only to well. That he had created a worse problem than what he had when he started. On the other hand Gilman might have been ridiculing what was a normal concept of men toward emotional females - the fact that females of the day fainted when stressed.

    If I were writing this story I would make John try and deceive everyone about where his wife was. The more lies he tells about her, the less people believe him. Finally, in a confrontation - say with authority he confesses everything. Of course they think he is crazy and make him go through the same treatment that his wife was subjected to. Do you see "The Yellow Wallpaper 2" here?

    Scrawler (Anne of Oregon)

    kiwi lady
    November 14, 2003 - 03:22 am
    Hi everyone

    Here I am back again sitting in front of a very fast brand new PC which I just got tonight with help from my sister and BIL. I will be poor for some time! I just got the basic with no printer scanner etc but I have all I need to get on line and join in.

    I don't take any medication for my illness from which I am unlikely to be cured but I have learned coping techniques from my therapist and I have a life. For instance last night I had a panic attack and with the techniques I learned I got over it - it did not go on all night. Its a bind at times and its hard work. I won't go into details but panic attacks are only part of my problem and yes its genetic. We are watching my little grandaughter closely as she is showing signs of the problem. I remember having my first attack at 3. Of course it was always put down to a physical problem and I was never properly diagnosed until the age of 46. I kept my weird thoughts to myself I knew if I told I would be branded crazy at 11 (funny how one knows these things even then and even at 11)I had a good laugh with a relative of mine who shares my problem that we had been plagued with identical thoughts and I found at my therapy group these thoughts are universal.

    Yes there is a stigma about mental illness yet one in five people have these illnesses in varying degrees. People tend to lump mental illness and axe murderers in the same boat!

    I agree with Mal regarding the illness of the woman in this story. I think her interpretation is 100% correct.

    I have a headache tonight so I can't post as much as I would like probably I have a headache from the stress of setting up this new machine the set up was not without its problems!

    This has truly been a great and revealing discussion. Thank you to all those who chose to share with us. It takes courage to talk about some of the things we have covered and I really appreciate the trust the posters have placed in us as a group. You are all wonderful.

    Carolyn

    fairwinds
    November 14, 2003 - 03:36 pm
    carolyn, i'm glad you have a new computer set up.

    all of a sudden things came to a screeching halt in here. i want to thank you all for the pleasure of your company. you had such fascinating ideas, theories and personal stories.

    ginny, you do a great job in facilitating discussions with your questions and comments on what others have said. brava, brava.

    Deems
    November 14, 2003 - 04:18 pm
    Thank you all for a really enjoyable discussion with lots of things to think about. Thank you, Ginny, for your enthusiasm.

    There are a LOT of posts on here--almost 500--and for a short story. Amazing.

    Maryal

    Marvelle
    November 14, 2003 - 08:04 pm
    Thanks to everyone for a fine discussion.

    Don't know quite where the break is on pages 11 and 12 (question 5) which Ginny recently mentioned. What I see as one break: this section starts in musing and then changes pace in a triumphant "Hurrah! This is the last day, but it is enough."

    One other break which I feel is more significant is the change in identity as the narrator works on the wallpaper and she pulls and the woman behind the wallpaper shakes at the paper and the narrator says she has a rope to tie the woman if she does get out -- and then the break comes with a change in identity when the narrator says

    "I don't like to look out of the windows even -- there are so many of those creeping women, and they creep so fast. I wonder if they all come out of that wall-paper as I did?" [Emphasis in bold added]

    This change in identity is the real break to me, the final break.

    Had to mention this as I puzzled over it last night when working at my dining room table and sorting papers.

    Thanks again to Ginny and Pat and to everyone.

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2003 - 08:57 pm
    I want to add my thanks to GINNY, MARYAL, PAT, and all the fine, thoughtful participants in this discussion. It was one of the most stimulating and intriguing book discussions I ever was in.

    Thanks to you all.

    Mal

    Ginny
    November 15, 2003 - 08:19 am
    Well as much as I hate to do it, I guess I'm here to make the last posts, yesterday being our last day and all, wanted to wait for everybody's final thoughts, and again, all I can say is wow.

    Last night as I put away ALL of the papers (you know how that is) I had printed out of your posts and the two versions and the internet sites of critical thoughts, and questions (the issues of half of which you answered before I ever got to putting them UP, you're that good) hahahaa ALL of a SUDDEN out at me jumped the question How does form follow content? hahahaha WHAT? I shrieked? WHAT WHAT? No no nooooooooo not here on the last day, what? WHAT?? Hahahaaa

    hahahaah now do you think I could resist reading over the original story? OK OK I read it fast. And by George by George she does suddenly as she disintegrates, begin starting sentences with "I," and her paragraphs are one sentence and I do think there is something there, but alas and alack, nous sommes finis!

    Maybe in more ways than one. Hahahaa, something to take away with you, like the Ethical Fiction, (what ARE those unanswered pesky ethical questions she raises?) you can wonder in your "spare" time hahaahah (isn't it fun to be so absorbed in so many excellent discussions?) how form followed function in this thing!

    I feel a strange reluctance to leave, and I see some of you remarking on having to pull away from Yellow Wallpaper in other areas, it's been REAL as they say.

    Also I do want to mention a correction, I have already corrected my original post. The article "Interpretive Bondage, Reader Response, Authorial Intention, and Gilman's 'The Yellow Wallpaper'" appears in Dr. Weinstock's book The Pedagogical Wallpaper, but is actually the work of Dr. Paul Reifenheiser of Florida State. I am so impressed by both these men that I did not notice where one stopped and the other started, but I want to give full credit where it's deserved.

    I would never have spotted it, till I sat down in the future to read (which I will, I want to see the movie, too) the entire book, but YOU all asked about the homosexual reference, and in going back to find it I found the true author of the article.

    The homosexual perspectives in Weinstock's book are from another author, Dr. Jonathan Crewe, at Dartmouth. His article is called "Queering 'The Yellow Wallpaper'" and I must say I have never read anything like it, the original article is expanded on for the text so the "Queer Reader" IS the preferred term, over "gay" or "homosexual," in 2002, and he goes into amazing details over Gilman's descriptions of the patterns, the very words she used? And I must say it's fascinating if off the wall (hahahah) reading.

    If you get a chance, look the book up in the library, and read all of the chapters, you probably won't believe it, but you are more likely to appreciate it than most people: who KNEW all this was in there??

    more….

    Ginny
    November 15, 2003 - 08:52 am
    Well Barbara, she has let her own demons out! Well said, and when I got to your "solutions," I thought for a moment, so caught up was I in the symbolism you were talking about the glue solution, and her being "bound," and I really like that train of thought even tho that is not what you were saying! Hahahaa thank you for the translation of your tag line and I also liked your thought on the number of times her wishes were discounted.

    Malryn those are excellent points on mental illness and present day Schizophrenia, and you raise here at the end a very good perspective, you are saying it makes us more aware and empathetic. I wonder if anybody here does NOT feel empathy for Narrator? Alas, that's something else we'll never know as the discussion is now closed, I like open ended things where you argue with yourself afterwards and keep an inner dialogue going!

    Rose, thank you for those thoughts on today's young reader, it's a shame we could not have shared this WITH young readers, I would be fascinated to see their response, I believe you are right!

    Lou, I agree, wouldn't it be something to read an entire book of this! Thank you for coming in, I am the same way with images, I tried to watch The Shining, and got as far as the very beginning where he turned around with a deeper voice, that was IT, I can barely stand to read the BOOK, at least with a book you can shut the page when it scares you , you're helpless in a movie. That's one reason if I see this as a movie it will be on a VCR where I can fast forward and mute, no joke!

    Barbara, thank you for Please Hear What I am Not Saying!

    Phyll, it was a FIRST for you, thank you for telling us how you saw it!! I agree on the "sticking points," Oh wouldn't we love to talk to her now!!! I would!! What questions we might ask. Thank you for those very kind words, I agree!

    Thank YOU for being here, ALL of you!

    Anneo, OH ANNEO lookit your tagline!! "Be the change you want to see in the world, " Gandhi!! OH!

    I agree and I also hate to leave (why is that) and it's been a watershed. I hope we have another one in the Wally Lamb, we will need all of you!

    Traude, we are so grateful to you for giving it your all here with all of the distractions you have at the moment, thank you. Thank you for The Golden Notebook experience, that's very helpful.

    Oh this is good Traude, "In the end, reality and symbol hurtle into each other and, as much as we'd like to see hope, I'm afraid I see none." I like that.

    And you know, also, the hope or not really has to come from our own psyches, the author is not giving us much here?

    Marvelle, this is nice, "The surface of the story is clearly about a woman's descent into madness. The literary techniques add depth and enhanced meaning and makes for an interesting read.". thank you for that one, Herland (which I just this minute figured out the meaning of) might make an interesting read some time in the future.

    Thank you for the link to Herland, Malryn!

    And good point Malryn on Narrator not wanting to leave the room, that's a definite change, my problem is I can't ever see what TRIGGERS those changes, driving me nuts, another thing to "mentally munch" on as an aftermath.

    Faith, super point on REPRESSION!

    Oh boy that's an entire theme in itself. I agree Gilman is a super writer on the break with reality, I'm trying to think of another writer who has done it as well? Poe? King? I wonder, too, of her insight, it's so real you can't help but think it's personal!

    Scrawler, good point on why John fainted, I have not seen that anywhere else! I love all the "what if's" you bring up!

    Carolyn we are delighted to see YOU and your fast new PC back, thank you and Faith and all of you who shared your own experiences, and I agree, I appreciate the trust the posters had here in each other: that's vital in a discussion where you are talking about what means something to YOU personally!

    Thank you, Fairwinds, I appreciate that. I have learned something new about response from this discussion and I have enjoyed it so much I plan to use it all the time from now on, you guys have taught me something new in the techniques of helping facilitate discussions and I really appreciate it, I've enjoyed it tremendously.

    Maryal, you are right, an amazing number of posts for 2 weeks today, many thanks to YOU for all your help!

    OH Marvelle, "woman behind the wallpaper shakes at the paper and the narrator says she has a rope to tie the woman if she does get out –" oh wow, you are absolutely right, thank you for that, it was driving me nuts@ And I agree with you on Pat Westerdale, many many thanks Pat Westerdale, for your constant help here with our thoughts in the heading, it's been real teamwork here.

    Well I'm not good at endings, let's say it's time to close the door on this