A white rose for the house of Lancaster, A red rose for the house of York, A pink rose for miss______, Who looks pretty in pink.

 

The Bounty Mutiny  
William Bligh  Edward Christian  R. D. Madison (Introduction) 

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ABOUT THIS ITEM 

From the Publisher 
"While the full story of what drove the men to revolt or what really transpired during the struggle may never be known, Penguin Classics has brought together - for the first time in one volume - all the relevant texts and documents related to a drama that has fascinated generations. Here are the full text of Bligh's Narrative of the Mutiny, the minutes of the court proceedings gathered by Edward Christian in an effort to clear his brother's name, and the highly polemic correspondence between Bligh and Christian - all amplified by Robert Madison's introduction and selection of subsequent Bounty narratives."--BOOK JACKET. 

FROM THE BOOK 

 Table of Contents  
 Introduction   
 Suggestions for Further Reading   
 A Note on the Texts   
 Maps   
 A Narrative of the Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship Bounty 1  
 Minutes of the Proceedings of the Court-Martial held at Portsmouth, August 12, 1792. On Ten Persons charged with Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship the Bounty, with an Appendix by Edward Christian 67  
 An Answer to Certain Assertions Contained in the Appendix to a Pamphlet 153  
 A Short Reply to Capt. William Bligh's Answer 183  
App. A Bligh's Orders and a Description of the Breadfruit 197  
App. B Lady Belcher's Account of the Pandora (1870) 205  
App. C The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1810) 213  
App. D The Quarterly Review on the Bounty (1815) 215  
App. E Jenny's Story (1829) 228  
App. F John Adams's Story (1831) 

I am one of these types that cannot seem to stop getting books one way or the other. Must be some kind of addiction. Oh well, a bit more harmless that some kinds.

Thank you for your advice. I will give it a try.
Mary, I too have many book on shelves that I have been reading for years or intended to read for years. One problem, in the past, for me was that I moved around the world a good deal about every two or three years. I had to, at times, put many of my effects into storage this included books. Some of that storage I did not see for up 20 years. In the meantime I was still buying books at each new post and some of those went into storage. I have hundreds of books on my shelves with book marks in them that I may have started a long, long time ago and hopefully I may get back to. The stack by my armchair are recently acquired books. I am the type of person who gets sweaty palms when I walk into a book store, I would walk out with half the store had I the money. My dream house would consist of a warehouse size Library with a small kitchen, bath, and bedroom attached.

My friend and I are on the same wavelength. We trade books a lot and natter a good deal. he means well, and I DO really believe that SOMEDAY I will get to those books he brings over, it is just that they are crowding out the books I am buying.

Good, you can join the discussion when its starts this winter and defend that position. We need both sides weighing in. you know, of course, that Bligh and Queeg operated under different rules and in different navies in different ages. In bligh's age cruelty to the seamen was a Captains right to maintain "Discipline" No matter what Bligh did to his men he would have been backed by the British Navy. Bligh, by the way, was Courtmartialed for losing his ship thorugh mutiny. He would have been Courtmartialed for losing his ship under any circumstances even battle against a superior vessel. In Queeg's Navy the rules were very different and Queeg's behavior violated those rules. Anyway, Welcome to the Bligh discussion, if you want to participate. look in at the Bligh discussion.

WOW!. In a way you a right and in a big way you are wrong. Yes, a Couirtmartial is an official inquiry. However, the UCMJ covers a wide range of sins. It covers criminal actions: Murder, Rape, Robbery, assault, etc. It also covers military actions such as disobedience, disrespect to an Officer, Failure to comply with an legal order, failure to do ones duty, sleeping on duty, etc. then there are the articles of War which cover other military matters during wartime in combat or in a combat zone. There are levels of military justice: different types of Courtmartial, Suumary, Special and General. There is what is called an article 15 which is punishment at company level administered by the unit commander. In the UCMJ is a cute little article (the no. of which I cannot remember and I don't know if it is still in effect) that states if an enlisted man cannot be courtmartialed under any other article he can be under that one. I couldn't believe it when I read that article (it wasn't widely broadcast) but it did exist. In other words he need not have committed any crime or illegal action. If the commander wanted to get him the commander could use that article. If the E.M had the wherewithall to fight it the thing would be dropped but a few men got burned on it. It generally was used for "Troublemakers." One could be labeled a "Troublemaker" for many reasons.

That is right. When a young person raises the right hand and swears and then signs on the dotted line that person for all intents and purposes has contracted his/her rights away. You would be amazed at what is considered a "Privilage" not a "Right" in the military. There have been many changes since I was in the military but much of that is due to "Fragging" (the habit of some Enlisted types throwing Fragmantation Grenades under or in cots of Officers they didn't like or who were harassing them.) That changed the complexion of things. I remember a Colonel saying he was getting out because "It was no fun anymore." That is, he could no longer treat the Enlisted types as he wished without the danger of getting blown up. I expect that even that has changed now. But I can remember at the height of it it was buddy buddy time between Officers and Enlisted men even to Officers taking an E.M. to the Officers Club. I even witnessed Enlisted types addressing officers by their first names. I suspect that the wheel has come around and the military is back to almost where it was before the "Fragging" started. Actually, among the grunts (Infranty) one needs strict discipline because one has to order Enlisted Men and Junior Officers into Harms way and they must be conditioned to go without question. The military being the institution that it is, rights have to be restricted. Isn't fun but that is military life.

I have several family members who were in the Navy in WWII I was told that on the way overseas a lot of the young LTs tried to get a bit more chumy with their troops especially the ones who were HardA**** in the States. I was also told that more that one Shavetail Lt. went over the Fantail at night. While E.M's couldn't get into to Officer's Country it wasn't impossible to come up with a story that would lure the Lt. down in to the Enlisted territory. Also one Uncle who was in the Army swears that a few Officers where shot by their own men during a fire fight. No one would know from where the shot came from and no one was going to investigate to see if the bullet came from an American or Enemy weapon. Apparently this was not modern as there have been stories of such things happening as far back as the Civil War. I guess some NCO's and Bosun's mates got it too. I was always amazed how a promotion could go to some people's head "Drunk with Power" I guess. Sad too because some of those probably were done in by some jerk who had a problem with authority and were actually nice guys.

"May I recommend "April 1865" by Jay Winik, Harper Collins. A history of the last month of the Civil War. I guarantee it will be a hit with your readers.

 
CONFEDERATE  TIDE  RISING 
TAKEN  AT  THE  FLOOD 
SOUNDING  THE  SHALLOWS

At about noon on April 17 (1689) he left camp near present day Shiner, about 30 miles southwest of La Grange on the Colorado. He raced on foot to the Colorado, swam it, and then trotted up the trail some 60 miles to the Brazos River crossing, then some 60 miles further to the Trinity, and finally some 40 miles beyond the Trinity to the Tejas camp. He received the written answer there and returned along the same pathway to Shiner and from there down the Indian pathway some 80 miles to the bay. This round trip trek of some 440 miles, which included swimming three large rivers, was made in 8 full days- from noon on April 17 to midday on the 25th. THE INDIAN MESSENGER HAD COVERED ON FOOT THE DISTANCE OF TWO MARATHRONS A DAY FOR EIGHT CONSECUTIVE DAYS.

Just bought "April 1865". Hopefully I will be able to read it in the near future. I intend putting near the top of my to be read pile of books.

Do nyou think this book may deserve discussion by the Senior Net Book and Lit group? If so, do you want to suggest it for consideration?

Tiger Tom

The book claims that it was the "dirtiest" election Campaign in U.S. History

It is NOT a Novel. It is a History. I intend to buy it as soon as I can drive up to the nearest large town where there is a Barnes and Noble located and I can use the gift card I received for Christmas.

Any one read this book yet? Perhaps we can have a follow up discussion on this to the John Adams Bio?

Tiger Tom

However, in the "Just released" section was a book Titled "Dearest Friend" it is a biography of "Abigal Adams" I didn't buy it as I have my heart set on another book and I have a budget for books which doesn't allow me much.

Anyway, for those who enjoyed the John Adams Bio this might be a good, complimentary, book to go along with it.

Tiger Tom

Jack

It is about the Florida vote, recounts, court decisions and results.

Hopefully it will have some new material in it. We all know how it ends: Bush is sworn in as President. But the events, in Florida, and elsewhere, leading up to that.....

Tiger Tom

In addition to "Borrowing" from others, Ambrose can put the damndest things in his books. Not much, just a sentence or two but they are a liitle strange. I would have to research some of the Books of his that I have, to come up with the proper quotes.

Ambrose does write well, I have always found his books easy reading. It is just those little things he puts in that are jarring.

Tiger Tom

True, research is farmed out by the Authors. However, it is they who reads the summaries presented to them by the researchers and picks out what he/she wishes to put in the book being written.

Stealing is stealing and can only be done by the Author, not the researcher.

I remember reading at one time that Michner claimed that he had spent five (5) years researching Hawaii before writing a word.

"Taking from one is stealing and taking from many is research," if I remember the quote right.

Funny thing is, that Ambrose is a very good writer, he didn't need to borrow a line or two. He may have borrowed an idea from another author, but once he put his own spin on it, it was a different idea.

Tiger Tom

colditz, the story of the Pow prison that housed the POW that constantly tried to escape. Colditz was suppposedly "Escape Proof", wasn't of course, the Allied Prisoners showed that to be untrue. Good Book I recommend it.

I have now started America Afired, Jefferson and Adams and the Revolutionary Election of 1800.

Tiger Tom

Anyone there? Have you all stopped reading History Books? Winter got you down?

Seems this is a good time of the year to sit by a hot fire in the Fireplace, with a cup of hot whatever by the chair and read a rousing History book. Then report it to the History Book Forum.

Tiger Tom

Could be that they are all over at the Civilization discussion. But, like most disucssions on the SN it seems to have only a handful actually posting to it.

My Fireplace has a wood burning insert in it so I cannot actually sit by a roaring open fire. Nevertheless, I can sit by it and read. Don't though. Our Big T.V. and the cable connection are located in the room with Fireplace so my wife has the tube on and I cannot read with that going. Hence, I retreat to my room and read.

I have a nice, Blue, sleeping bag that I sit in to stay warm and an easy chair so It isn't too bad.

Bought any good books lately? Or are you like me, you have a stack of to be read that reaches almost to the ceiling and you want to get rid of that before buying more.

My wife thinks I have enough books. I say that one never has enough books. Or as the Ferengi say "Enough is never enough."

Tiger Tom

The house we bought was supposed to be "Insulated." While doing a little work on one of the walls we found out that hte Insulation was so thin one could read thorugh it. Technically, yes, the house was insulated but theinsulation used did absolutely no good.

Our wood insert heats the whole house. Although the upstairs takes a while to get warm(we have a three (3) story house.)

Since my pile of backlogged magazines is getting down to a manageable level I am able to devote more time to books. I have lots of History books to read and report on.

Unfortunately, I see that there are a bunch of other books out that I want to buy and they aren't history.

Tiger Tom

Have you ever wondered how things might have been different if we had gone on the Mexico City and taken Mexico? We easily could have.

The only book I have read on Burr was the one written by Gore Vidal; Burr.

The burr in Vidal's book was not an unsympathetic Person.

In actual fact, from what little I have read of the man, the thing that tripped him up was the duel with Hamilton.

Killing Hamilton gave Burr's enemies the opening they needed and they took advantage of it. Burr's Political Career and his ambition to become President disappeared after the duel.

Burr, apparently, wanted to found another Republic out of parts Of the Louisiana Purchase and Spanish holdings in North America. He seemed to have some backing for this adventure, but that backing disappeared after Bburr's Political demise. Still Burr tried his scheme but it came to nothing.

Tiger Tom

If we are wondering what if:

What if the Aztecs, Mayan's and the Inca's would have had the Horse?

The Mayan's and the Aztec's had the wheel or at least the concept of it. Apparently, they put wheels on their kids toys.

Their big problems was there were no dray animals available and their economies were slave economies. Humans make lousy dray animals.

The Horse is what makes Conquering fun and profitable. Imagine, if the Aztecs would have been able to move into North America proper. With their civilization and Army it would have been fairly easy for them to conquer most if not all of it. the horse would have made that possible. True, the Army marches, but the Horse pulling wagons would enable the army to carry along some food, extra weapons, workshops to repair weapons and such armor as they had and also haul off booty. Slaves, of course, would have to walk. Horses pulling wagons can carry a whole lot more than slaves can individualy.

Had the Aztecs reached the area around the Great Lakes they would have found people who were working metal other than the soft metals the Aztecs worked. they worked the metal by smelting, not hammering as the Aztecs did. So, imagine what weapons and armor the Aztecs could have come up with once they gained that technology.

Wonder what Columbus would have run into had the Horse been available to the people of North and Central America for centuries before old Chris hit the Western Hemisphere.

Tiger Tom

My point is that the Horse (or any dray animal for that matter) would have given the Aztecs, myans or Incas the mobility that they did not have.

Cross fertilization of societies need mobility. Boat, Canoe, or Horse.

The usual route is traders and then conquest and finally missionaries.

But it is the mobility allowed by wheeled vehicles, hauled by dray animals, that makes it possible for armies to move long distances and to remain afield. This is what makes Conquest worthwhile.

No matter how vicious a society is if it has the mobility and the manpower it can conquer a great deal.

Look at the Mongols,, hardly a paragon of virtue. Very cruel people. They conquered everything that came in their path and only stopped when they got bored because it was too easy.

<P.Without the Horse the Mongols would have been confined to their area and the world would never have heard of them.

Had the Aztecs the mobility afforded by the Horse I believe they too would have been, like Mongols, conquering everything in their path. They were a tough people with a damned good military.

Tiger Tom

As for human sacrifice. There are times I look around and think we should reconsider.

Jack

I have read the same thing about the Aztecs and their religion saying that a light skinned god or whatever would come across the sea.....

Also read somewhere that what what helped to a large extent to bring down the Spanish was too much of a good thing, that is the wealth that was brought back from the Indies: It contributed to inflation and also drew Pirates and others to start preying on the Spanish Plate ships which required Spain to maintain a large Navy to protect those Plate ships as much as possible.

In addition to preying on the ships the Spanish ports in the New World were subjected to raids by Pirates. This meant that Spain had to maintain forces to protect them also. This meant that money that might have been spent on other things went to protecting the wealth that came out of the New World.

Tiger Tom

You are probably right about the decline of Spain being due to the lack of a middle class and the ruination of the land by cattle. it is usually those kind of things that do cause a country to decline.

Still, I cut my reading teeth, when I was a boy, reading about Drake, Morgan, and the rest of Eliabeth's Captains who ravaged the Spanish Main and brought wealth to England.

I also read books like "Captain from Castile" and others about the Spanish in the New World.

True, those were fiction but they led me to real History for which I am grateful. Often real History has been as glamerous as those swashbuckling Historical Novels.

Tiger Tom

I have, for some time, tried to visualize the Aztecs, Myans and Incas in the Context of the Med. Sea area. I keep wondering which would be Rome, Greece and Carthage and how would they interact.

I have always felt that the Aztec civilization would be Rome; the Myans, Carthage and the Incas the Greeks.

I have worked out some fantasy stories in my mind but don't write well enough to put them down on paper.

This is in conjuntion with my musing about what if the Horse or dray animals had existed in that part of the world. Would have the Inca and Aztec civilizations clashed? Who would have come out on top.

Pity that these people could only work with soft metals by hammering. Imagine a Bronze age of metal weapons and armor.

Tiger Tom

Yes I remember that movie. Good one.

It did point up how a person could be destroyed by someone denouncing that person to the Inquisition.

Tiger Tom

My recollection of it is vague. I believe it comes from an article in Smithsonian magazine. If I am correct this epidemic took place about the time that the Spaniards were ready pull out of the city and thus aided them. And that when they returned they found that the city had been decimated.

Jack

Jack

I have been meaning to get "FDR's Secret War" for some time. I have a copy of "Roosevelt and churchill Men of Secrets" which probably contains a bit of what is in the FDR's Secret War. I recommend it.

I bought a copy of April 1865 based on your recommendation here. Haven't got around to reading it yet but will soon, hopefully.

I have McCullough's book "Truman". Have had it for years, somewhere. Imust dig it out and read it sometime.

Tiger Tom

You are right about the Inquistion. It didn't disappear, in Spain, until the early part of the 20th. Century. You are also right that it was known by another name by that time and had tamed down a bit.

You are also right that most countries were able to resist the Inquisition and it died out after a short time in those countries.

I believe that it lasted on in Iberia, especially Spain, because politics became involved and also it evolved into a way of getting rid of enemies and grabbing property. The Church certainly enriched itself using the Inquisition.

Tiger Tom

Robby

Jack

I have read the book through. I highly recommend it.

The cast of characters are great. In addition there is so much on Racing, Jockey's, the Depression era.

But the outstanding things are the Horse and the three (3) men around it. The owner, the Trainer, and the Jockey. Real men that are bigger than life. If this were a novel you wouldn't believe the characters, too different than real people.

Read the book and join us. It is going to be, as Ella said, Interesting.

Tiger Tom

Jack

Richard got p.o.ed when he arrived and proceeded to run the guy to the ground. He was a usurper or renegade from the Byzantine court, I think, and not popular anyway. Richard claimed the island, then gave it to one of the order of religious knights - Hospitallers or Templars, but they mucked up in some way. Then he gave it to a French knight, who established the ruling Luisignan dynasty that ruled until the line ended just before the Ottoman conquest. The Luisignans remained aloof from the local Greek population during their 500-year rule, only once, I believe, intermarrying with Greeks, usually they married into the ruling families of the Crusader kingdoms and their descendents after the kingdoms themselves disappeared.

The Crusades and the Crusaders are remembered in the Greek world as barbarians and thugs, by the way, and not the noble religious adventures that the West has turned them into. Much of the strong "distaste" for the world of Latin Christianity has to do with hatred for these jerks who did more to hinder the Byzantines from keeping Islam at bay than in helping. In fact, the diversion of one of the crusades to conquor Constantinople and the setting up of a Latin dynasty for awhile there was a major force in weakening the Byzantine Empire so that it never fully recovered.

The West was repeatedly blindly stupid in its dealings in the eastern Mediterranean, something it seems to have not lost the knack of.

Jack

First of all, I wish to say the above is a statement that I find myself pretty much in agreement with. But, nevertheless, it did occur to me after reading it with how easily we continue to use the word "discover" in an unqualified manner, and I include myself as one who does.

The astronomer who discovered the planet Pluto did so in what I would call an absolute sense - as far as we know no human beings knew of its existence. However, discovering the "New" World is in large measure relative to our Eurocentric view. Certainly the Incas, the Toltecs, etc. were aware of this "new" world, even if the Inuit may have not been aware of the Arawak, say, or the contours of the land mass.

Though it certainly is not an exact fit the New World was discovered and new horizons created for ensuing generations in the similar sense as the Vandals, Huns and Mongols "discovered" Western Europe for themselves and likewise opened a lot of horizons. However, I imagine that if Romans were able to read what I wrote there would be more than a little harumpfing from their quarter.

In the late 70's I began to read a little bit of Byzantine history, and realized how peculiarly slanted toward the Medieval barbarian thug pit of Western Europe our public school teaching of long stretches of European history is. Since then I have done more reading on Byzantine and Arab/Ottoman history and culture, and now live in the far eastern Mediterranean. The consequences of this locked-in American/Western European view of the world are mindboggling - and still we don't get it. I'm afraid we are continuing to "discover" in much the same fashion.

Bradbury's "Martian Chronicals" may be the best comment yet about Discovery.

Jack

I have seen discussions in Usenet newsgroups in the past on whether extra-terrestial intelligent life would have a "soul" given by a deity as some humans believe they do. The implications of a "no" answer to this gives me the chills. It is the same old loony baloney as we see with the Africans and Native Americans, i.e. the use of religious fancies to allow us to manipulate and control. I don't remember the book well enough now, but wasn't this kind of confrontation you mentin the nexus of Bradbury's "Martian Chronicals"?

Jack

As a suggestion I am wondering if we might could select a specific historical subject and discuss it from the standpoint of those who have written about the subject. Thus bringing in the views of several writers. Y'all have done a petty good job on several subjects I have mentioned previously. What do you think about that idea??

Cuba as a power capable of exporting revolution has been impotent for decades, and considering the advanced state of decay that the infrastructure is in and Castro's age I have to agree that the Cuban people would overwhelmingly bite into more material prosperity.

There is no evidence that Castro is part of anyone's axis of terror, and you can be sure that if there were even the slightest indication of it it would be used to make political hay in the U.S. I have to assume that the absence of such stories from credible sources means something.

However, once again I think that needs of both political parties in the U.S. to win Cuban-American votes is what steers foreign policy in regard to Cuba. Castro and Cuba would be a dead issue if it weren't for the desire to suck up those votes at any cost, so the fiction of a Cuban tiger is preserved.

Jack

This was the reply of my neighbor's 9 year-old grandson when I sought a clarification of what is history and what is current events.

Sokrates is not dogged by doubt, or does he defer to fools. He has within recent memory characterized Henry Kissinger as a "gangster," and the Pope as an "atheist." I did not pursue either topic and retreated to the weather as I often do with Sokrates. It is the only topic where he has deigned to use those human words, "I don't know."

For those who might wish to make a foray into history as personal fantasy I would suggest that peerless classic: "The Growth and Decline of the Cuban Republic." Having ruled as a dictator living in splendor while his people had no health care or education, and with tourist concession greenbacks pouring into his pockets so that he could depart Cuba will millions in his pockets and leave his country in squalor, Fulgencio Batista as the author of this work waxes creative on the workings of Cruel Fate. It was published about three decades ago, but I'm sure has lost none of its Alice-In-Wonderland quality and must be available from used book dealers.

Jack

They threw in the curve of Texas withdrawing from the Confederacy so that you had three instead of two countries.

Of course it all ended happily with a single United States again. My recollection is that as the story progressed farther and farther away from the Civil War era it became more and more a trot toward an ending that would be popularly acceptable.

Jack

Jack

I don't have a clue. But I would be interested in knowing if you are implying that reading to discover these facts would be as important in my life (or anyone else's) as knowing more about the places and people in the Middle East that we may soon be at war with -- or better hope that we can find some way of living in peace with.

By and large I can still trust to U.S. magazines, newspapers and radio/TV to tell me about the American politicians, military figures, CEO's, etc. that make the decisions that shape my life and yours. And this information fits into the familiar background I/we have learned in school and by being members of U.S. society. And I can still rely on popular discussion of what I/we learn through the media to expose me to several sides of issues and personalities. Thus, the name of the General's father and what he was particularly famous for - unless they are dramatic revelations which would change our understanding of recent history - seem more like fact-collecting than reading history.

What we get infinitely less of is basic information about other countries in the world, their cultures and histories, and their leaders . And we have little or no context for understanding these people and their leaders, and without it how do we orient ourselves intelligently as citizens?

Jack

http://courses.ncsu.edu/classes/hi300001/bkmarks.htm#latrefs

Discusses topics in great detail, lots of links

http://ladb.unm.edu/

24,000 articles, emphasis on recent history

http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/

Global topics, but large section on Latin America.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook.html

Section on Latin America.

These are from the BBC history magazine.

Jack

On the other hand, there is some history I read because I believe knowing it will have a practical and positive impact on my day to day life. For example, I have lived in Portugal; therefore, I read Portuguese history to understand the social/cultural context in which I would be living, and so I wouldn't sound and act like a lunkhead in my social life with the Portuguese. I live in Cyprus now, and I had in the past read Byzantine history, and I read more before coming here, as well as the history of Cyrpus and of the various Christian and Muslim ethnic groups that live here. Again, while this was entertaining, there was also a large practical thrust to it - and I derived personal advantage from what I absorbed.

Then there is that third category in my history reading, and it is one where I am largely playing the fraud, much like the man who goes to church, grabs the hymnal and sings boomingly to a god he doesn't believe is there. This is, I guess, the area of current affairs reading - e.g. reading the history of Zionism, history of the demographics of Palestine, history of Islam and such would be this year's examples. I received my secondary education in an era when we were taught as a virtual article of faith that being an "informed citizen" meant that we would be superior, or at least better, participants in the democratic process and that our government would be the better for it. I must say in all honesty, forty-five years later I no longer believe it, and I do this kind of reading more in an effort to give some shape and form to the various thugs and thuggeries that afflict the world than in the belief that my "informed opinion" matters. The comfort of holding the "hymn book" has come to suffice.

While I think that at the local level and perhaps even at the state the American citizen can/does matter, I believe that since the WW II era what goes on in the national government (and certainly in the area of international affairs) is, on the other hand, an area where we hardly matter. The role of the citizen at the national level has become largely illusory, we participate by confirming actions set in motion by powers beholden largely to themselves and influential lobbying groups and industries, and we are grossly and purposely misinformed and manipulated to gain that consent or to keep us fragmented enough that any dissent is largely show and bluster. And it matters not what party holds office it process is the same. Emblematic of this sorry state (though not solely causative by any means) was the disappearance of the old national political party conventions, with their faults certainly, but with real rock em/sock em grass roots democracy as a vital part of the process from the local precincts to the convention hall. Now we have those circus-like spectacles which function mainly as staged rituals to anoint those bankrolled to victory by various interests, and we seem not particularly bothered by the change. But then politics and the entertainment business do not seem signifantly different any longer.

My little friend, Sokrates (Panagos) is on the right track - history is dead people, everything else is television - especially if one equates "television" with "entertainment."

As for discussing a book here, I could probably get interested in a book on the American Civil War with no problem at all, as long as it wasn't too heavy into battle tactics. I have read a bit of Brazilian history, and a small and somewhat bizzare fact from it may be of interst: Several thousand Confederate supporters settled in Brazil rather than live under the conditions of defeat, and Os Confederados descendents still point to their origins with pride and decorate the graves of their dead with the Stars and Bars today.

Jack

For some reason German history misses out in this country, which is odd considering all the German descendants

Jack

DUTY by Bob Greene

SAILORS TO THE END

I'm not sure why I picked it up - other than the fact that I knew nothing about the Cathars, except what I was taught and read from Catholic sources. I have found the book to be a fascinating read. It is not heavy on religious doctrine, weaving it in here and there in a very palatable fashion. The author has reconstructed this period from the Inquisition records and remaining physical evidence, and he has done a masterful job.

The one drawback is that the given and family names are not only unfamiliar, being in the Occitan language, but they are shared by several people - naming conventions seem to have been very conservative. However, I find that it is the bigger picture by and large that interests me so that losing track of who is who amongst a dozen minor players has not been a problem. The interplay between religious dedication and family feuds and official (civil and religious) corruption is spellbinding. Despite their rather bizarre beliefs and knowing their ultimate end, I still find myself rooting for them - they showed such courage and resourcefulness.

Jack

Robby

Marvelle

Robby

"The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians" by John B. Bury ISBN:0393003884, pb $12.55

"Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage" by Alfred Lansing ISBN:078670621X, pb $11.92

If I can only nominate one book, it would be the "The Invasion...." since it relates to Rome and the fall of the empire.

My special interest has long been Ancient Greece so my thoughts on shorter reads before January have to do with that ancient culture. I don't know the process but I hope that this is the right place and time to add the following books for consideration in the pre-January discussions:

"Greece from Mycenae to the Parthenon" by Henri Stierlin ISBN:1402811691, pb $6.63 /A comprehensive survey of Greek Architecture set within cultural and historical context.

"Thermopylae: The Battle for the West" by Ernie Dusgate Selby, Bradford ISBN:0306805316, pb $14.11 /From B&N: the 3-day battle for the pass at Thermopylae -- the Hot Gates -- was defended by the Spartans and was a critical contest in Xerxes's massive invasion of Greece.

Marvelle

"Endurance..." is a study in preparedness and leadership which made all the difference for survival. Perhaps we can identify similarities with other leaders such as Lincoln and Robert E. Lee.

Marvelle

I think Foner's shorter book would be more accessible "A Short History of Reconstruction" -- Foner abridged his original book by almost 400 pages. However, rather than going with American politics, right now I'm leaning to something related to the "Civilization" discussion. Despite the lean, I can be swayed in the other direction if that's the way the votes go.

When do I have to make up my mind and vote?

Marvelle

Robby

"More words have probably been written about Abraham Lincoln than about any other American political figure......But much of what has been written about Lincoln is myth.....Anyone who delves into this literature with an open mind and an interest in the truth cannot help but be struck by the fantastic lengths to which an entire industry of "Lincoln Scholars" has gone to perpetuate countless myths and questionable interpretations of events. Many of these myths will be examined in this book."

Marvelle

In the meantime I'm reading "Thermopylae: The Battle of the West" which is fascinating. This is about a battle during the Persian invasion of Greece, known as the Peloponnesian Wars (Peloponnesus is a peninsula forming the S part of Greece). Greeks thought the Persians were vulgar and fanatical in their organized preparations for war. The differing view of life among Greek and Persians reminds me Potsherd of Native Americans and Europeans.

In one instance Xerxes, ruler and leader of the invading Persians, ordered the building of two bridges over the Hellespont, connecting the Asian and European sides. A great storm immediately stirred the waters and destroyed the bridges.

Doesn't this sound a bit like how Native Americans thought of the Europeans? The Persians conducted their wars efficiently and under dictatorial commands. The Greeks of the time were individualistic and not interested in sustained destruction and killing.

I'll see if I can find the Iroquois book at the library and report back. Will need to read further into "The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians" soon.

Marvelle

Has anyone looked at "Cicero" yet? I've checked out the Iroquois book but it's huge and I haven't dared open the book yet. Anyone started to read it and care to share some of its writing or an opinion? I'm enjoying "Thermopylae." (This is a short but sweet book report!)

Marvelle

Robby

Marvelle

ROBBY said the Civilization discussion might be up to Rome by January and so ELIZABETH nominated "Cicero" while I nominated "The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians" as the dying fall of the Roman Empire which links to the rise of the Celts/Gauls.

I also nominated "Thermopylae: The Battle for the West" which is about Greece and the war with Persia for independence which heralded the Golden Age of Greece. I tried to limit myself to inexpensive books listed at B&N (some were too costly). If you can find others I'd appreciate it.

Marvelle

I wanted something specific like a particular battle rather than an overview of Ancient Greece since the Civilization discussion would, of necessity, be more general. I couldn't find an affordable book on the Battle of Salamis which would be a nice partner to Thermopylae. Salamis was the decisive victory for the Greeks over Persia while Thermopylae was a loss but a heroric one which set the standard for the Greek spirit. In any case, the book on Thermopylae is short enough that it could even be a fill in before January if another book is chosen for that official discussion.

Marvelle

Perhaps ROBBY can tell us how detailed they'll get into this period of warfare to see which of the Greek books would be suitable?

Marvelle

Robby

I wholeheartedly agree with ROBBY that war is only one part of history.

Since we'd be reading independently of the 'Civilization' discussion as far as timing goes, I'll agree with HAROLD's suggestion of substituting "The Greco-Persian Wars" for "Thermopylae: The Battle for the West".

Marvelle

Time Magazine

USA Today

For fun here is an Olympics site for Greece including history of the Games: Greece 2004

Marvelle

""This has never happened in the history of the Games," an I.O.C. member said last week, commenting on the dire shape of preparations. "No, I'm wrong, the only time the Games had to play catch-up was in 1896 in—guess where—Athens." -Reported by Anthee Carassava/Athens and Barry Hillenbrand/Lausanne, TIME

Marvelle

Marvelle

Robby

Robby

"Few historical figures escape revisions of their worth as statesmen; this is particularly true of wartime leaders, and especially true of Winston Churchill. Although some presidents and prime ministers have had their reputations rise (Harry Truman, most notably) or remain the same (Lincoln comes to mind), such re-examination usually chips away at the historical statuary rather than polishing it. In the case of Churchill the critique is particularly interesting, because it goes not only to the question of the character and personality of the British leader but to the essence of the activity in which he engaged — the creation of strategy."

"From David Broder - Washington Monthly:

Bill Minutaglio places his subject solidly in the context of his family -- and that is the right place to start figuring out who and what George W. is. . . . Minutaglio demonstrates more fully than anyone else I have read, literally everything in Bush's resume up to his election as governor was to a substantial degree handed to him. . . . I could discern no evident bias -- either adulatory or cynical. And there are some important clues to the character of a second Bush presidency."

Robby

Robby

Marvelle

TIGER TOM, I checked B&N too and there are a lot of wonderful books about Wright's buildings. There are two bios I'd like to check into: "Frank Lloyd Wright" by Meryle Secrest and, probably a second choice, "Many Masks" by Brendan Gill. Some critical reviews have reservations about the Gill book.

I couldn't find an inexpensive bio on Alice Neel the artist but a few years ago I read a nice bio on her that may be out of print now. The problem is that, as with Wright, you need to have a coffee table book filled with pictures of their work, while you read a bio. Only when you see a mass of their work, an accumulation of images and feelings, only then can you begin to really see the person and their art. Neel was an interesting woman and incredible artist. She lived for art and had to sacrifice the traditional domestic life. In her time, she found she could not have both. She catalogued the men in her life as The Cuban, The Sailor, The Musician, etc and the reason(s) why I think she did that I won't go into here. I doubt that I can find an accessible bio on Neel but I recommend reading anything you can find on her. She deserves more universal recognition as an artist.

Marvelle

P.S. Here's a good introduction I just found to ALICE NEEL

It even has some bios listed about her! I'll look into them further.

Marvelle

I should add that Neel had a rich, interesting, bohemian life.

Ken Burns is right about having to experience the actual place or art. I've been in a few Wright buildings -- but not the Johnson Wax, my loss -- and there is something poetic to them, the intensity of belonging that comes over you when you're there. I don't know, still can't explain it. But you're so grateful to be there and so relieved as if you'd been adrift before then and so humbled and joyful. It's what I felt in two places in my life. That "This is it" relief-gratefulness-joy.

I just returned from the library where I picked up the Meryle Secrest biography of Frank Lloyd Wright. Don't know when I'll get around to actually reading it. Will have to compare notes with TIGER TOM.

Marvelle

On November 4 & 5, 9:00, the History Channel, will show the conclusion of Simon Shama’s History of Britain: from late 18th century until today.

Marvelle

John Hancock, 1 vote; Greco-Persian War, 1 vote; Cicero, 1 vote; Iroquois Empire, 2 votes.

John Hancock, 2 votes; Greco-Persian War, 1 vote; Cicero, 1 vote; Iroquois Empire, 2 votes.

Marvelle

Marvelle

Marvelle

robert b. iadeluca - 06:40am Dec 5, 2002 PST (#166 of 167) Books Discussion Leader So if Mankind keeps repeating and repeating and repeating, ad infinitum, why are we bothering to spend any time reading The Story of Civilization?

Robby

MaryPage - 06:46am Dec 5, 2002 PST (#167 of 167) From ANNAPOLIS, a drinking town with a sailing problem! WE are doing this because it fascinates us. Actually, it could be a humongous help if everyone was raised on this stuff from pre-school. Seriously, it beats fantasy and fairy tales by light years. If every single human being knew history, it would considerably improve on the current situation where most of us believe current happenings are unique in our history and that what is happening to us personally is the most important story of all time AND, and this is terribly important, OUR TRIBE or OUR NATION is not necessarily in the right on every question or regarding every action.

p.s. I think it might also make us less gullible. Gullible is bad.

Publishers Weekly A joke circulating in Paris early in 1919 held that the peacemaking Council of Four, representing Britain, France, the U.S. and Italy, was busy preparing a "just and lasting war." Six months of parleying concluded on June 28 with Germany's coerced agreement to a treaty no Allied statesman had fully read, according to MacMillan, a history professor at the University of Toronto, in this vivid account. Although President Wilson had insisted on a League of Nations, even his own Senate would vote the league down and refuse the treaty.

Robby

Marvelle

To get a better grip on the use of DNA for genetics and historical purposes, be sure to watch "The Journey of Man" on your local PBS station next week. Those who have seen it say it is well worth the watch and will give you a good understanding of where your ancestors came from. It will show in most markets in the US on Tuesday, January 21st at either 9PM or 8PM depending on your time zone. Check the schedule for your local station. The host of the program is Dr. R. Spencer Wells who is a participant in our Wells DNA study

Marvelle

Marvelle

"Having plumbed archives and other sources neglected by previous biographers, Srodes debunks numerous myths that have gathered about Franklin, many of them spun by other Founding Fathers. Where John Adams-and his biographer David McCullough-had Franklin as indolent and careless, Srodes uses recently discovered documents to show that Franklin was keeping his colleagues at arm's length in order to conduct covert activities to help the American cause."

Marvelle