Devil in the White City ~ Erik Larson ~ 4/04 ~ Non Export

"A vivid account of the tragedies and triumphs of the 1893 World’s Columbian Exposition in Chicago and the concurrent depravities of America’s first serial killer. In roughly alternating chapters, former Wall Street Journal reporter Larson tells the stories of Daniel H. Burnham, chief planner and architect of exposition, and Dr. Henry Howard Holmes, whose rambling World’s Fair Hotel, just a short streetcar ride away, housed windowless rooms, a gas chamber, secret chutes, and a basement crematory. The contrast in these accomplishments of determined human endeavor could not be more stark—or chilling. Burnham assembled what a contemporary called 'the greatest meeting of artists since the 15th century' to turn the wasteland of Chicago’s swampy Jackson Park into the ephemeral White City, which enthralled nearly 28 million visitors in a single summer." Kirkus Reviews

Discussion Schedule
Dates	From	Through
4/1-4/8	Prologue	A Hotel for the Fair
4/9-4/16	The Landscape of Regret	Acquiring Minnie
4/17-4/23	Dreadful Things Done by Girls	Freaks
4/24-4/30	Pendergast	Aboard the Olympic

For Your Consideration

Were you surprised by the persistence of Detective Frank Geyer who just refused to give up in his quest to find Holmes' victims?

Did you read the chapters of Holmes' murders and the last chapter wherein he was found guilty?

Why do you think the author, Erik Larson, believed it was necessary to tell the story of a serial murderer in this book? Would it have been a success without the chapters about Holmes?

There is a statement in the chapter titled "The Tenant" that reads: "In that day the possibility that a man had killed three young children was still considered a horror well beyond the norm." Isn't it today considered as such?

Is the fact that our population has increased many times since then a reason why we are beseiged by such horror stories in the media? Every evening on TV there are stories of such murders. Is this healthy? Do you watch many of these programs?

What did you enjoy the most in this book?

Was the title of the book sensationalized for profit or do you believe it was an appropriate title?

Wonderful Links:
The Devil in the White City

1893 World's Columbian Exposition
(with many old photos and maps of the Fair)
Boston College -- Archive of American Architecture
The Chicago Historical Society -- "The World's Columbian Exposition"
The University of Virginia -- "Ideas, Experience, Aftermath"
The University of Chicago -- "Social Studies: The Columbian Exposition"

Discussion Leaders: ELLA and HARRIET

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Several people have mentioned this book, either reading it or hearing about it, and it was for a time on the Nonfiction bestseller list. I'll look the facts up later, but I bought this book last fall and have loaned it out to two people; fortunately it was returned!

It's historical but fun to read ....... at times you can't believe it's true!

Do join us as we talk about Chicago, the World's Fair, the architects, the period in which all of this happened! Is there still a World's Fair? Anyone know?

Harriet and I will be waiting for your posts and anticipating a great discussion!

This story includes the magical beauty and excitment of the World's Fair and elements of horror as a serial murderer stalks the fair for victims.

The Chicago Fair of 1893 was the embodiment of everything that was modern and beautiful. Scorning the usual kerosene lamps, the designers chose to use the new electric lights.

"Night," wrote a contemporary, "is the magician of the fair."

For many visitors, the illumination was their first experience with electricity, and the first time many people could explore an event like a fair when the daylight faded.

Join us for an extraordinary story of the magical fair and the devil within it. The times and the people are beautifully recreated, the story is fast paced and interesting.

Ella, I think the last World's Fair that we had in America may have been in 1964-1965, in Flushing Meadows, Queens, NY. Did anyone happen to have attended that?

Harriet

I did! I did! I rode up on the bus from Jersey and nearly got trampled, no joke, trying to get on the bus to come back, people surged onto the busses, it was awful.

My favorite thing was the Carousel of Progress by GE which then retired to Disney World, where I took the kids as often as possible till the day they shut it down for refurbishing and updating. I never have been back to Disney World, so i don't know what they did with it. I just loved it, and their view of the future is remarkably astute for today.

Don't you remember the song? Now is the time, now is the best time, now is the BEST time of your life! and the stage would rotate thru the decades of American history featured on the appliances!

Loved that thing.

ginny

Wow look at this that I found on the Carousel of Progress, apparently still going strong?

Welcome, to Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress. You're in for a real treat. The Carousel of Progress was Walt's own idea from beginning to end. He loved it. He introduced the show at the World's Fair in New York City in 1964 and it was an immediate smash hit.

Millions of people came to see it and since then, the Carousel of Progress has had more performances than any other stage show in the history of American theater.

You know, Walt loved the idea of progress and he loved the American family. He himself was probably as American as anyone could possibly be. He thought it would be fun to watch the American family go through the twentieth century experiencing all new wonders as they came. And he put them together in a show called Carousel of Progress, which we are about to see. Although our Carousel family has experienced a few changes over the years, our show still revolves around the same theme - and that's progress. May the century begin.

And MORE!! Here's the OFFICAL Disney World explanation and history, apparently it began back in operation in 2003, AND a good bit about the World's Fair in NY, too

History (from Official Walt Disney World information): Walt Disney’s original concept for the World’s Fair was "a show that would interpret, in an educational and entertaining way, the role electricity has played in bettering man's living conditions." By 1959, General Electric was sponsor of the proposed attraction, which would consist of a series of stages depicting electrical history through which people would walk.
1964-65 New York World’s Fair: The result of the collaboration with GE was "Progressland," one of the most successful and exciting exhibits at the 1964 World’s Fair. At the New York World’s Fair in 1964, as many as 4,500 people per day enjoyed the Progressland show. The widespread enthusiasm for it was astounding, for almost 16 million visitors saw the show. After viewing the show inside, Guests went upstairs to view Progress City. This 160 foot, scaled model was built at 1/8 inch to the foot. It occupied 6,900 square feet of space, using 22,000 scale trees and shrubs, 4,500 structures lit from within, and 1,400 working streetlights about one inch tall each. Progress City was Walt Disney’s model for EPCOT (renamed to Epcot). Progress City can be viewed from the Tomorrowland Transit Authority at the Magic Kingdom. When the New York World Fair closed, the Carousel of Progress was moved to Disneyland where it, and the original music, played from 1967 thru 1973.
Disneyland: In order to extend and preserve the show permanently, GE brought it to Disneyland in 1967. The G.E. Carousel of Progress in Disneyland was a two-level pavilion which could be seen by up to 3,600 people per hour. The first level contained the same basic acts. However, at the end of Act IV, guests stepped onto a "speedramp" that carried them to the pavilion’s second level. There they viewed Progress City, Walt’s model of EPCOT (renamed to Epcot). During its six year run at Disneyland Park, more than 31 million people saw the show.
Walt Disney World: In 1973, it was then moved to a new theater at Walt Disney World, opening in 1975 with a new theme song, "The Best Time of Your Life." A 1993 rehab returned the original show music, "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow," which still plays.
Timeline:
1964 Created for the 1964-65 New York World’s Fair, as General Electric's Progressland
July 1967 until 1973 Relocated to Disneyland and named 'Carousel of Progress'
January 15, 1975 Opens at the Magic Kingdom in WDW, with new final scene and new song, "The Best Time of Your Life"
March 10, 1985 General Electric's last day as corporate sponsor of the attraction
1994 The attraction was refurbished to its original state and renamed "Walt Disney’s Carousel of Progress." At this time, it was redone as a tribute to the original attraction. The theme song was changed back to "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow," and the story recreated as a tribute to the nostalgia of the past. <LII>TOURING TIPS
Hidden Mickeys: There are four Hidden Mickeys in the final scene. Mickey appears as a nutcracker on the fireplace mantle, a plush peeking from a present, a white peppermill on the kitchen counter, and an abstract painting on the dining room wall.
Beginning October 12, 2003, Carousel of Progress resumed daily operation. It is usually open during normal park hours.

Oh, Ginny, that's wonderful history and that World's Fair must have been an amazing wonder but I hope you will read this book about the World's Fair in 1893, you'll love it.

Do you know I've never been to Disneyland - some years ago, more than I care to remember, I accompanied my husband to a conference in Orlando and we did go to Epcot Center one afternoon and I stood - no, I barely stood, holding on tight to the railings, while the room swirled around me with scenes of the world. I have never been able to take any kind of rides, merry-go-round or roller coaster, as I get sick and I managed to close my eyes during that episode and escaped without embarassing myself and others with me.

This World's Fair was to commemmorate the 400th anniversary of Columbus' discovery of America but everything that could go wrong did go wrong and it did not open until the next year. There were those who said it may never open, but Chicago was determined and everyone was behind the project.

The book tells of the rivalry between New York City and Chicago for the Number One city in the USA and Chicago felt the Fair would do the trick.

All the buildings were painted white and it was all electrified - an amazing sight for those who have never seen electric lights before!

THIS BOOK WAS A FINALIST FOR THE 2003 NATIONAL BOOK AWARD, so it is well written and was very popular when it came out last year. You can now buy it in paperback or get it at your library.

Yes, we went with 3 children (left the baby at home with Granny).

We stayed at the Lincoln Inn (??) near where the Lincoln Center was being constructed.

The Carousel of Progress was also our favorite, but we also made the rounds to all the countries that had exhibits there. We spent 3 days there. I think we rode everything that moved.

I also went to the Century of Progress, the World's Fair in Chicago in 1934. I still have the cane that my father bought for a souvenir. What I remember most was the frozen custard cones, the first soft-serve.

This sounds like a book I would like to read...the gruesome next to the sublime...what a paradox. My youngest is being married in April..and I am still not sure of the date. This is a second marriage and will be very small and very private..She has rented a house on the sound in Nags Head for a week and there will only be the bride and groom , three children and the two mothers..of course I am the most important motherLOL and get my choice of bedrooms ..They will be married shortly after we arrive and we all get to spend the honey moon with them. She will take her wireless laptop and I hope I can use it ...since I have dsl I am not sure I can use my laptop...and am not sure there is a connection in Nags Head ..but I would like to join the discussion and intend to buy the book in any case...I can read it while we are there..anna

Well, aren't you something, Pat, attending two Worlds' Fairs both in America. I know how old you are and I'm surprised you can remember the one in 1934? Hahahaaaa

Here is a list of all the World Fairs: World Fairs

They go back to the 1756 to the present and beyond. The next one appears to be in Aichi, Japan. Shall we go?

ANNA, you will love the book and do try to join us when we begin discussing it.

Promises me I will have my book in good time..I asked my daughter tonight just when are we going to NAgs Head and she said we leave on the 10th..now that sounds good .....when do we discuss the book????? I can take it with me to read ..because there are always lazy times when I am there ..usually we rent on the ocean side but in April I think the sound side is best...just hope we have pleasent weather...I dont want to pack snow shoes!!!!!!!anna

Ella, I want to read "The Devil in the White City" but don't know if I will have time for a discussion since I will be doing "By the People" at the same time

. Remember when we put up all those wonderful photos of Chicago during the World Exposition in the 1890's, when we were considering going to Chicago for B&L, back in the olden times??? What fine pictures they were.

ANNA AND ANN!

I hope both of you have time to read it, you will enjoy it tremendously! Oh, yes, Ann, I do remember our BOOKIES' trip to Chicago and our discussion (I think we had fun with a quiz didn't we?) about the city. I'll have to look it up to be sure but I think there is a book titled "CENTURY CITY" that deals with the history - the great fire, this World's Fair, the great Ferris Wheel (which is described in this book as a rival to the Eiffel Tower in France), etc.

Hi, I'd like to join the April discussion. I've read just a few chapters and already feel this is an absorbing book, a survey of both the good and the bad of America's coming of age and populated with an increadible cast of characters.

Marvelle

Wonderful, Marvelle! We'll be looking forward to your participation and I don't think you will be disappointed in the book. Thanks so much for your interest.

I'd like to add my welcome to Marvelle, Anna, Ann, Pat and Ginny.

What wonderful memories of past fairs, Ginny and Pat. Annafair, congratulations on your daughter coming marriage. Ann, many thanks for your post. Those photos sounded just great! Sure hope you'll all have some time to join us at the 1893 Chicago World Fair. Ella and I recommend it highly.

As Marvelle pointed out, we'll be in such notable company. The fair drew the elite of the Gilded Age.

Figures who have achieved legendary status in our own time attended to enjoy the exhibitions. Fairgoers might have caught a glimpse of Buffalo Bill, Theodore Dreiser, Susan B. Anthony, Jane Addams, Clarence Darrow, Archduke Francis Ferdinand and many others. Both the vice and glory of 1890's Chicago is described.

The book covers a fascinating spectrum of life at the turn of the century.

Harriet

I have ordered this book. However, I don't know if I will be able to read the part about the serial killings. Not my normal reading. I am fascinated about how the Fair was put together and the architecture. My maternal grandparents got engaged at that Fair and got married in 1900. I grew up in Chicago at the South end of Jackson Park. When I went to High School, I attended the University of Chicago and it runs along Jackson Park where the Fair was held. And, to top it off, the large building in the center of the bookcover became a marvelous museum. When I was growing up is was called the Rosenwald Museum and later the name was changed to the Museum of Science and Industry. I have never found another museum like it.

Have read D in the W.C. and highly recommend it not so much for the serial murders but for the vivid historical aspects. An excellent companion book is City of the Century The Epic of Chicago. I am proud to live in this great city with its many many stories. Looking forward to being a part of this discussion group.

How great, Marjorie and Jmarm!

Marjorie, even though I've been enjoying the book, your post breathed even more life into it. Just Imagine...you've lived in the neighborhood, walked the streets, visited the Museum of Science and Industry, which was one of the original buildings of the fair...what fun! This book explores much about the difficulties of putting that Columbian Exposition together. It's sounds like it has just the information you want.

Such romantic and nostalgic associations also, with your grandparents getting engaged at the fair. I love it. Thanks for joining us!

Welcome Jmarm, now we have two Chicagoans. What a resource you and Marjorie are for all of us. We're all fond of history here and we're so glad you've joined us. Thanks for your post!

Harriet

CITY OF THE CENTURY, The Epic of Chicago - yes, that's the book we used for our trivia quiz before we went to Chicago and it is an excellent book on the history of Chicago! THANK YOU JMARM!

I've always wanted to return to Chicago to explore the city, but have only been there twice in my life for short periods!

And WELCOME TO ALL, we now have a quorum for our discussion and we will move this proposed discussion up into the heading - "COMING DISCUSSIONS."

Thanks to all of you for your interest - this is going to be great fun!

It's good to be back with you all. I was delighted to see this book on your 'upcoming' agenda, especially when the library has a copy available to me. Just love turn-of the century true crime and history, can't wait to hear more from you. Ginny, is there anywhere you've ever been without your ability to document the event with such acumen and liveliness? I don't think so! Greetings, Pamelam

WELCOME PAMELAM! HARRIET AND I ARE SO TICKLED TO SEE OLD FACES AND A FEW NEW ONES TO OUR BOOK DISCUSSION!

While we are waiting until April lst and we get a more permanent heading up, here's an exercise for those of you who know Chicago. This was the best map (it may not look like it at first, but...) I can find on Chicago because you can click on any section and see a nice big portion of the city. The others I found are all so small.

Would you tell us which area of the city the World's Fair occupied?

Here is the site: Map of Chicago

Here are some wonderful pictures of the World's Fair and some statistics you can be looking at: 1893 World's Fair in Chicago

We will put both of those links in the permanent heading, and thanks to all of you again for your interest - this will be so much fun!

As I was skimming through some of those pictures I wonder why this sentence caught my eye: "Some of the more popular exhibits were curiosities rather than serious displays of technology and progress. They included an eleven-ton cheese and a 1,500 pound chocolate Venus de Milo in the Hall of Agriculture"

Could it be that I love chocolate and I'm on a diet at the moment? Why did I have to see that? Ohooooooooooooooo

You know that most everything was torn down after the exhibits all closed and I'm wondering who got to eat the 1500 pount chocolate Venus de Milo?

At our fairgrounds every year they carve a butter cow - sorry no chocolate in Ohio!!!

Pamelam, you are so kind! I am so glad to see you here! Welcome!!

1,500 pound Venus de Milo? Out of chocolate? hahaahaha I love things like that, that's why I love county fairs, so, Ella and Harriet your enthusiasm is just contagious, this looks (again) like one of your winners!!

ginny

Marjorie, I just thought of this - the chapters alternate between the World's Fair and the Crimes so you can, if you want, easily skip what is unpleasant for you, and still fully enjoy the discussion.

Marvelle

MARVELLE: I was hoping to be able to do as you suggest and read alternate chapters. I will also be fascinated by the photographs I am sure.

ELLA: You posted this link to a map of Chicago. If you want to find the location of the World's Fair, click on the South and West link. Then look for #31. That will be the Museum of Science and Industry that I mentioned.

The Museum is on the right of the park. I won't know until I read the book if how far the Fair extended to the left along the white line where the Museum is located. It would not be further to the left than Halsted but it might not have extended that far.

I grew up just under the bottom of the blue and closer to the white on the right than the Museum is. There is park from the bottom of the blue up to the Museum. I don't think that the Fair was in that part of the park though. I used to ride my bike though that part of the park.

I thought that I recognised that building. I went there for a day back while I was in high school. A brief (weeklong)summer trip given to me by my mother in thanks for taking care of my sister and cooking for a family of 5 while my widowed mother worked at night. I loved Chicago and that museum was quite an eye opener for me as they had assembled in one large exhibit how we are conceived and born. Pretty neat!!

Thanks, Marjorie! That will be helpful when we get into the book - now we can actually read those streets online, isn't that amazing!

I got my book today and I was hoping for more pictures. I think I was mistaken about what building is now the Museum of Science and Industry. It looks more like the building on the right at the beginning of Part III. The Museum has columns like that in front. But maybe that still isn't correct. I guess I will have to do a search to find out what I want to know.

The map on the inside of the cover confuses me even more. It is a view from the air and I was always on the ground by the buildings. It certainly looks like the Fair was HUGE.

I just found this link to a website about the Columbian Exposition, otherwise known as the World's Fair of 1893. Back later after I read this.

P.S. I think I will read this site when I read the book. Too much information to absorb right now.

Marjorie, that is a fantabulous website! Here are two sublinks from Marjorie's site that I've already found useful:

Official Tour of the Fair

The Official Tour is like taking a walk through the fairgrounds. There are pix of buildings and sublinks (one to Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show - with more sublinks). Here is another useful link that I found in the Official Tour:

Clickable Map of Fairgrounds

I'll take some time too, Marjorie, to read this site you found. Last night I was reading some information on a neighborhood tour in the town where I live and unexpectedly found a connection to the Columbian Exposition (aka 1893 World's Fair).

The connection is pretty amazing when you realize that I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico - a town situated at over 5000 feet elevation in a desert valley (high desert). Couldn't be less like Chicago with its earthy yards - grass is rare in this desert city & is frowned upon due to water shortages - and many adobe buildings, and an even population mix of Native Americans, Anglos, and Hispanics.

The first farms and ranches in the area are from 1610 - 1630. The west end of Albuquerque, or Old Town, was officially founded in 1706. New Town, founded in 1880, was established when the Santa Fe Railroad arrived and poor drainage and threat of flood, especially from the Rio Grande River, near Old Town required a more suitable location for the railroad tracks. Businesses following the railroad in the 1880s set up practice, building in the area now known as New Town. (I prefer Old Town myself but NT is pretty interesting too.)

Now here's the 1893 World's Fair connection -

Two buildings in New Town (Albuquerque, New Mexico) paid homage to the architecture of the 1893 Columbian Exposition in Chicago.

- The Willam Whitney House, an example of Neo-Classic, based on the Greek Classic style of buildings at the 1893 fair - with a striking cornice of pressed metal, fine woodwork, and wrap-around railing over the top of the porch.

- the Plaza Escalante, an 1890s building, a nice example of World's Fair Classic with detailed Ionic columns and plaster decorations in the front gables, and a tunneled entry opening onto muraled walls.

I would imagine that many cities were influenced by the 1893 Columbian Exposition and we could find many other architectural examples with the Fair influence.

Marvelle

MARVELLE: You mentioned a building having "World's Fair Classic" architecture. Maybe that is why I can't yet distinguish which building became the Museum of Science and Industry. I haven't been there in close to 40 years and all the buildings have similarities.

There is another great link in the new heading: 1983 World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago

Using that link I found the Midway. I had thought the Midway was the entire Fair. Little did I know! The Midway was just a tiny piece of the Fair.

MARJORIE, I did a little research and the Museum of Science and Industry came from the 1893 Palace of Fine Arts. The Palace is the second item from the top on the clickable map.

Story of the Palace Turned to Museum

1893 Photo of Palace

Close Up Photo

Colorized Image of Palace

The Palace of Fine Arts was designed by Charles P. Atwood, paying homage to Greek architecture. The sculptor Augustus St. Gaudens said is was "the finest thing done since the Parthenon." (A little hyperbole there.) The Palace was the only remaining building from the Exposition and it was in bad shape when it was decided to save and restore the building. The city planners gutted the structure and then rebuilt it as it had once looked.

Is that the Administration Building in the heading?

Marvelle

MARVELLE: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now I have the history of the building I remember. The picture of the Palace of Fine Arts is how I remember the Museum and the closeup is perfect. When I was little we called it the Rosenwald Museum even though the article said that the name was changed before it opened and it opened before I was born. A perfect description of what the Museum is like also.

Hi Marvelle! That is the Court of Honor in the heading - just a very pretty picture of it, can't remember where we found it now, but here is a better view - black and white - but you can tell from the dome and the pillars and the arch that it is the same building. Actually this site is in the heading and shows most, if not all, the buildings at the Fair:

Court of Honor

Hahaha - I think we are both using the same site as clickables!

Yes, it looks like the same clickables! I searched around the net and that's been the best site - and Marjorie found it long before I did. Oh, what a glorious pix of the Court of Hone, it's a shame the buildings weren't preserved. Thank goodness, there's still the Palace of Fine Arts.

Marvelle

Let's take a few days to talk about Chicago, whether we have been there or not!

What's your opinion of the city at the center of the country - well, almost isn't it? ONe of the bigger cities? Is it one of corruption and crime? Has the city been cleaned up since the days it was the stockyards of America? Hasn't that been the picture of Chicago in the past? Stockyards, dirt, crowded, immigrants, skyscrapers, the Kennedy Mart (what was that building called that was at the heart of the Kennedy fortune)?

Remember Mayor Daley and his connection to Jack Kennedy's nomination and eventual election as president? What have you heard about that? Isn't his son now the mayor? What do you make of that fact?

I have a few memories of the two times I've been there - BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OWN and if not, memories, your opinions of the city?

Let's talk!

When I lived in Michigan (I left MI 7 years ago) I'd take the train to Chicago at least once a year and spend a week in town shopping, theatre, museum. Since I don't have a car I'd take public transportation everywhere and it really was the best.

I'd hit as many bookstores as possible - wonderful town for books. Remember the first time I was in Chicago - I wasn't dressed apropriately, I packed a lot of full skirts of lightweight material and Chicago is aptly named "The Windy City"! Chicago women, quite stylish, either wear straight skirts or of heavy material (or the skirts have weighted-hems). And I remember all the fur coats.

I'd get on a bus and go anywhere in town. Did notice the sad decay of urban blight with some rather wonderfully ornate buildings encircling the city, just outside the business center of town, bordered up and near-to-falling down.

Curious too about the population of Chicago. It seems fairly evenly split between Caucasians and African-Americans and also seems unoffically segregated? At least, that's my impression.

In the town center, African-Americans and Caucasians would board the bus from the same stops. No segregation there but I'd sometimes stay on a bus just to sightsee, see where the bus went. I began to notice that once past the decaying buildings, a group of Caucasians would get off at a certain stop. Then more Caucasians. We'd keep going on this poor-man's chariot and finally only African-Americans would remain. Then they'd start to get off.

Don't know what the employment situation is like in Chicago. Or the ratio of earnings but it appears to have the all too often big city blight of segregation by class (class in American means $) and race/culture. I know for a fact that Chicagoans with money don't take the bus, but instead drive from their homes into the inner city - and they live far outside where the bus riders got off.

The positive aspect is the beautiful Lakeshore Drive, skyscrapers, transportation, theatres, museums, and - of course - the great old bookstores.

Marvelle

MARVELLE: You have a more recent experience of Chicago than I do. My mother has lived in one of the northern suburbs since 1976 so I when I travel to visit her, I rarely go into the city itself. When I was in high school, we lived in the city and I used to take a bus to go to school and I used the Illinois Central (elevated) train to go downtown. That would have been in the late 1940s. I know we had a car but I think that my father used it to drive to work and the rest of us used public transportation. After I graduated from college, the neighborhood I had lived in most of my life changed from a Causasian one to an African-American one. Mother and Dad then sold the house and moved into a condominium in a different neighborhood of the city. They stayed in the city because my father's business was in the city. Mother's sisters already lived in the northern suburbs.

Well, I've never been in Chicago. I'm learning a lot from listening to you all talk.

The thing that tickled my funny bone was that Larson, somewhere in his book, suggested that Chicago earned the name of The Windy City due to the longwinded and boastful speeches of its politicians. hahaha. That sounds like Anytown, USA, doesn't it? A New York journalist became somewhat miffed over Chicago's aggressive eagerness to host the 1890's World Fair and supposedly coined the phrase. Of course the journalist, Charles Anderson Dana, was probably exaggerating...maybe, just the littlest bit...maybe?

Marvelle, you just confirmed that the winds DO blow in The Windy City. I'm relieved to hear it. Some research indicates that during the 1880's, well before the Columbian Exposition, the Chicago Tribune tried to promote the city as a summer resort, using the cool breeze off the lake as the basis of its attraction. Perhaps that might be the first reference to Chicago as the Windy City?

Actually both the Chicago politicians and population did have a right to boast of the rebuilding that had been done after the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. Here is a site with some information about the fire.

I adore old illustrations and lithographs and there are dramatic ones here, done with true Victorian flair and reproduced from the newspapers of the day. Click to enlarge the reproductions.

http://www.chicagohs.org/fire/conflag/burning.html

Harriet

WOW! How I so much enjoy the quality links that contributors have made to these materials! Their richness and superior presentation have added immeasurably to my total experience. Next on my agenda! a bus tour of Chicago. I've been too ill to travel even the short distance involved from my home town (Burlington, Ontario). But summer's coming and Chicago is first on my list of things to do (as it has been for some time) Am looking for coach tours starting this minute! Pamelam

OH, PAMELAM - IF YOU GO TO CHICAGO THIS SUMMER, YOU MUST TAKE THE ARCHITECTURAL BUS TOUR OR THE ARCHITECTURAL BOAT TOUR! BOTH ARE JUST WONDERFUL!

They have on board knowledgeable people who tell you such interesting stories about the history of the city and take you to places you may not know of - our group took the bus tour and loved it!!! It ended at dusk and our tour guide had the driver stop the bus at a lovely site so we could see the tall buildings - the skyline - and he identified every building! We toured one of Frank Lloyd Wright's houses - who, by the way, is mentioned several times in this book.

He was a junior partner to one of the architects of the Fair and you'll be surprised at the references!

Do any of you like his work? I've been to two of the homes he built and I wouldn't live in one if you gave it to me; perhaps you would have to be an architect to appreciate the quality???

MARVELLE! - What a wonderful description of the city - skirts had weighted hems?? I have never heard of that before - have any of you?

"I'd sometimes stay on a bus just to sightsee, see where the bus went." I've always wanted to do that on a bus - ALWAYS!!! AND I HAVE YET TO DO IT!!! Particularly in a strange city - I don't know why we don't do the things we most want to do while we can.

Thanks for those memories, MARJORIE! Did the Lake figure into your childhood in any way? Beaches, watercraft? Isn't the Lake a big attraction for the city?

And the Magnificent Mile of shopping - I think that is what it is called and the building I mentioned earlier owned by the Kennedys was the Merchandise Mart I believe - it has since been sold. I'm going to look it up tonight - later.

HARRIET! You are so close to New York City you probably have never felt the need to go to another city of comparable size! But they are different - they are to me, anyway. I've been to NYCity many more times than Chicago and I think the difference is that Chicago, although metropolitan, still has a midwestern feel to it. NYCity cannot be beat for energy and excitement - I didn't feel that in Chicago.

Later, ella

ELLA: You mentioned bus tours to PAMELAM and they sound so interesting. I haven't gone sightseeing in Chicago. I was a native so it didn't seem like something to do. I will look into it when I am next there with spare time.

The lake was a big part of my childhood. We went to the beach in the summer. We would go for picnics near the water at a place with rocks and not sand and other times we would go to another part of the beach where there was sand so that we could go in the water. I don't remember how old I was the first time I went in the water, but I would guess I was probably 2 or 3.

When I was in High School my father got a sailboat and I would go for a ride with him and my younger brother. I never did like sailing as much as swimming.

Every summer when I was little we would take a week or so to vacation at the Indiana Dunes. The Dunes are at the southern tip of Lake Michigan. We would be in the water there every day.

Chicago is on the western shore of Lake Michigan. I learned directions by figuring out where the Lake was. That would be East and then the other directions just fell into place. Now I live in California and the ocean is in the West. Also I am not close to the ocean so I can't use it for a direction. However, when I drive to the coast it seems strange for the water to be on the west rather than the east. For people who have grown up here Chicago would be the strange place.

MARJORIE, the Lakeshore sounds so inviting! I remember it as a tourist (and also as a resident on the Michigan side) and it is attractive with those white dunes. I also remember the cold wind which would be good, I guess, for when your father sailed.

Someone mentioned the politics of Chicago of which I know very little. Never been much interested in politics. It seems so removed from regular folk. I do remember, however, Mayor Richard Daley, a Democrat who was elected to six terms of office from 1955 to 1976. He died in office (natural causes). It was said that John F. Kennedy owed the Presidency to Daley's political machine. I remember this and Mayor Daley because I'm Catholic and the ugly remarks against Kennedy's Catholicism was quite strong and in that political race, and only that one, I followed the news. Mayor Daley had a strong hold on Chicago, and Illinois.

Now isn't there another Richard Daley today who's mayor of Chicago? Is he a son, grandson, or other relation? (Sounds like a dynasty.) Does he have as much clout as the other Daley, or have times and political ways changed?

Marvelle

If you watched the news during the 1960 campaign for the president you would have to be aware of the Democratic convention in Chicago and the riots and the police brutality and Mayor Daley!!! I'll find a clickable about it, Marvelle!

I love everyone of those Great Lakes, Marjorie, aren't we blessed to have them and aren't they one of the seven wonders of the world?

Pamelam - are you near any of the Lakes in Ontario? Where do you live?

In order to be a nationally known city you would have to have a song written about it - Here's one of the best known about Chicago! And, ones about NYCity and San Francisco also come to mind.

My Kind Of Town 
(Writers: Cahn/van Heusen) 
(Performer: Frank Sinatra)
 

Now this could only happen to a guy like me 
And only happen in a town like this 
And so I say to each of you most gratefully 
As I throw each one of you a kiss
 

This is my kind of town, Chicago is 
My kind of town, Chicago is 
My kind of people too 
People who, smile at you
 

And each time I roam, Chicago is 
Calling me home, Chicago is 
One town that won't let you down 
It's my kind of town
 

My kind of town, Chicago is 
My kind of town, Chicago is 
My kind of razzmatazz 
And it has, all that jazz
 

And each time I leave, Chicago is 
Tuggin' my sleeve, Chicago is 
The Wrigley Building, Chicago is  
The Chicago Cubbies, Chicago is 
One town that won't let you down 
It's my kind of town

My first trip to Chicago was many - MANY - years ago when three of us girls, about 19 or 20 years old, decided to visit the big city for a weekend. Dancing was our passion in those days - we called it jitterbugging, today they call it swing.

And so we made a reservation at a hotel downtown, took the train and walked and walked downtown, visited all the big stores, and then we went to a very famous ballroom - I think it was called the Aragon Ballroom and watched the dancers.

Marjorie, does that name ring a bell with you?

We were much too shy and awed to dance ourselves and I don't think anyone asked us too either - hahahaaa

But it was a glimpse of that fabulous city and I've never forgotten it and the fun we had!

Ella,the city of Burlington, Ontario is about a half-hour's drive from Niagara and it's a similar distance from Toronto. So Lake Ontario is 'my' Lake. The Niagara parkway, of course, links L.Erie to L.Ontario and is a beautiful part of the world. I've lived in several big cities and loved them all. Lived in U.S. for 10 years before returning to Canada when my health deteriorated. My elder son lives in Burlingto, it's good to be close to him and grandchildren. I've had a very difficult transition. Burlington started (and remains) Bedroom Exburbia (to Toronto and Hamilton commuters)and its location on a narrow strip of land between 3 or 4 major thruways and the lakefront (no sand!) ... but let's not go there! Never fear--I'm a compulsive reader and have some comforting friends already! Pamelam

ELLA: I think Avalon is the name of the ballroom you mentioned. The lyrics you posted are not the song I think of when I think of a song about Chicago. However, since reading your lyrics that song is the only thing running through my head. I can't come up with the other song.

MARVELLE: I have Richard Daley's name on my marriage license as County Clerk before he became mayor. I believe the current mayor is his son -- another Richard Daley. I haven't followed the politics much. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

The current Mayor Daley is definitely the son of former mayor Richard Daley. I understand he was reelected for a fifth term in office last year by a huge majority.

His father served as mayor of Chicago for twenty one years. I guess that constitutes a political dynasty? He did some really notable jobs, but I think the best must have been lending his name to legitimize your marriage license, Marjorie. hahaha.

Ella, the melody to "My kind of town" is also running through my head continuously now.

Harriet

OH, DEAR, OH, DEAR!!! I DO APOLOGIZE - it was the 1968 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION in Chicago that was, indeed, a riot act! Here is the history of it:

1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago

Now that I got it right I'm sure all of you will remember it and Mayor DAley - the same one that signed Marvelle's marriage license! Hmmmm -

Here's a quote from that history: - "On the last day, Thursday, the convention opened with a film tribute to Bobby Kennedy. Also, Mayor Daley printed up hundreds of "We Love You Daley" signs and orchestrated a pro-Daley demonstration in the convention to contrast with the negative image the city had gained during the course of the convention."

What hubris!

He was much critized during those days and afterwards as it was reported that he gave the police an order to shoot to kill! Whew!

Here is another quote:

"The violence between police and anti-Vietnam war protesters in the streets and parks of Chicago gave the city a black-eye from which it has yet to completely recover."

Has it recovered yet? The fact that I remember those bitter days is proof that there are memories that linger and they are not good memories.

Would this book be welcomed by Chicago or castigated?

On the front pages in the book in bold letters is - "MURDER, MAGIC AND MADNESS AT THE FAIR THAT CHANGED AMERICA."

The magic is nice, but the rest of it?

PAMELAM! EXURBIA????????

You say Exurbia, we say suburbia, we say tomato, and you say tomahto!

Oh, no, let's not get start singing again, HAHAHAHAAAA!

Just can't wait for the discussion to begin! So much fun and such a good book!

I ordered it two weeks ago from B&N and it hasnt arrived...it seems it is coming from a different location...but still not at my door. I am interested in the fair part especially ..and will see if I can stomach the serial killer part. I have a tendency not to read passages about killers. A mystery story is fine as long as we are not treated to a detailed description of the corpse. I love the old mysteries where someone "was done in" in a quiet manner..and no detailed description..just everyone puzzling who and how...but will wait to see. I will be away for a week from the 9th to the 17th and I dont think I will have access to a computer at that time, but will play catch up on my return.. anna

Annafair, for the most part, the author avoids grisly passages detailing the murders. As Erik Larsen himself pointed out, no one ever witnessed one of Holmes's murders, so the details are all conjecture and our author does not indulge deeply.

In two places in the book, the author tries to reconstruct a murder scene according to logic and available evidence, but even this is done with a reasonable amount of decorum and not much ghastly detail. For the most part, people appear brightly on the stage of the book, interact with Holmes, and then disappear. When relatives and loved ones inquire about them, we hear Holmes's lies and evasions.

I thought that the excellence of the author lay in the insinuations and the innuendoes he created about the disappearances of people who had contact with this serial killer, and OUR prior knowledge of Holmes's willingness and ability to do harm to others.

Of course I acknowledge that each person's tolerance is different, but that's how I've perceived the chapters related to Holmes. I haven't finished reading the book, so I hope this description continues to be correct.

Congratulations on your daughter's marriage, Annafair. Enjoy yourself.

Harriet

I am in the middle of the book and can't put it down! I am going to print out a map of the fair grounds so that I can identify where I am in the book. That's as soon as my printer works. What a pain! and its a new one too!

am in the middle of the book and can't put it down! I am going to print out a map of the fair grounds so that I can identify where I am in the book. That's as soon as my printer works. What a pain! and its a new one too!

Has anyone used this wonderful interactive map??? Interactive map of the White City

Or read the wonderful links about the fair that are in the same link??

Yes, do take an architectural tour of the city as its fame does refer to its first sky scrapers and its wonder architecture. We did have wonderful tour which Ella scheduled for us when B&L went to Chicago in 1999!

I visited there in the 50's and spent a wonderful week with some cousins who lived near Grant Park. We went to the Science and Industry Museum, another Chicago Fair which was on the Lake Michigan's water's edge, spent a day at one of the country clubs following around a group of lady golfers to which my cousin belonged , had lunch and a short shopping experience at Marshal Fields Department Store, drifted through the lobby of Palmer House and enjoyed it all. We went to a blues club in the downtown area and to church on Sunday where the last mass was so crowded that attendees stood outside the open doors of a huge church, right out on the sidewalks. 'Twas a hoot!

ANN: That is a marvelous link you found. It certainly makes sense to me that the University of Chicago would have a lot of information on the Fair since their campus is on the Midway (or, perhaps, just north of it).

Finally, using ANN's link and going to the Fine Arts Palace, I have a better orientation of where things are. The water is south of the Fine Arts Palace (Museum of Science and Industry). I had thought that it was north of it where their parking lot is now. I am used to going inside the Museum from the north entrance. That is not shown in the pictures.

When I clicked on the Administration Building, the picture showed the building under construction. I don't know if this is mentioned in the book but I found the text next to the Administration Building most interesting. "... The frame of the building was constructed mostly of wood and then covered with a plaster-like material called staff. The buildings had lots of decorative detail because staff is easy to mold and shape. The buildings were then painted white to resemble limestone or marble." No wonder everything is so ornate.

I remember that the Museum looked like marble or other stone and I didn't understand how such buildings would disappear. Since the buildings were wood and plaster, their destruction is now understandable.

Oh. that's a wonderful link, Ann. Thank you for bringing it to us. The map, the illustrations are just great.

What a wealth of visual material is emerging to enhance this story of the Chicago fair. Oh Ann, I think your link should definitely be in the heading.

Marjorie, it's astounding to me also that buildings of such beauty could be torn down. Apparently the architects knowingly threw their artistic best into structures that would be temporary.

Did the midway survive, Marjorie? But not the magnificent buildings? If so, what irony!

I'm so glad that the photographs and illustrations of the fair survive.

Harriet

I'm not able to access that interactive link since my webtv doesn't have 'Flash' but I can use - even though different, or simpler? - the clickable map Marjorie gave us in her wonderful virginia.edu link, listed in the heading as 'Virtual Tour':

Clickable Map

Perhaps people can fill me in on the additional information of the interactive map, if necessary?

Marvelle

I'm still browsing Ann's marvelous link. I clicked on the little red letters that said "Columbian Exposition" located under the Interactive Map. I reached a page with a link to SIX Image Galleries of photos, illustrations, lithographs of the Fair, all of which obligingly enlarged when clicked.

What a treasure trove! It'll take a while to work my way through these. We probably now have photos of almost every aspect of the fair, including some of the construction phases.

I love it!

Harriet

Oh, Marvelle, I just read your last post .

Let's try this link and see if it helps you. It's part of the Interactive Map site and leads to the six spectacular image galleries. Hope you have better luck with this part of the link. Hopefully, you'll now have access to all the other goodies on the site that are available to Web TV.

Gallery 1 even has a picture from the Paris World Fair of 1889 that the Chicago Fair so longed to outdo.

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/ecuip/diglib/social/worldsfair_1893/index.html

The Interactive Map has outline drawings of the major structures of the Chicago Fair. When you click on each outline, an illustration of the actual building appears with information about its construction and other details. It also shows a miniature inset of the original map, placing the building in context with its neighbors.

It's neat! Wish you could get it. Hope you enjoy the rest of the linkages.

Harriet

Thanks, Harriet. I can't get the interactive map with the clickable outline information - these require Flash. I can get the "Further Information" and "Image Gallery" from the link you provided. I just spent some fun time looking at the gallery photos. I got a clearer picture of the fair and how people could travel on gondola's through the Peristyle Gates and around the Fairgrounds. Great images.

Marvelle

HOW NEAT!!! OR IS IT AWESOME THE WORD THAT YOUNG PEOPLE USE TODAY? HAHAHAAA

BUT WHAT MARVELOUS PICTURES AND THAT INTERACTIVE MAP IS ASTOUNDING! SO ARE THOSE IMAGES, MARVELLE! ALL THE WORLDS FAIRS SHOWN THERE!

Being a resident of Columbus, Ohio (well, we live in a suburb of the city) I have seen a statute of Christopher Columbus many times in front of our City Hall, but he never looked as young as the one portrayed here! I must look more closely next time I go downtown.

And a moving sidewalk with seats on it up and down the pier? So people would not get tired of walking! Hahahaaaa

Just marvelous images, I must have my husband come down and play with it all! He's thinking he must get into computers as I tell him of their marvels - but at the same time I don't want him to take over my precious time on it!! I'm selfish about my computer!

This is the one I think of when I think of a Chicago song

Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin' town, Chicago, Chicago, I'll show you around. Bet your bottom dollar you'll lose the blues In Chicago, Chicago The town that Billy Sunday could not shut down.

On State Street, that great street, I just want to say They do things they don't do on Broadway; say, They have the time, the time of their life - I saw a man, he danced with his wife In Chicago, Chicago my home town.

Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin' town Chicago, Chicago, I'll show you around - I love it Bet your bottom dollar you'll lose the blues in Chicago Chicago, the town that Billy Sunday could not shut down

On State Street, that great street, I just want to say They do things that they never do on Broadway - hey They have the time, the time of their life I saw a man, and he danced with his wife In Chicago, Chicago, Chicago, that's my home town

Just love it, Anna! Do any of you know who Billy Sunday was? I remember my grandmother talking about that great evangelist but I don't how she knew of him. He must have been the Billy Graham of that day.

And, Anna, you are our resident poet, so I know you will know of poems about Chicago - Carl Sandberg comes to mind.

Any others?

Billy Sunday.. Now that brings back memories of family stories.

He was the Billy Graham of that time. In 1913 he came to Danville, IL, set up his tent to the Christian Church lot. My grandparents attended with their 4 children. My aunt (17) volunteered to sing in their choir. The revival was a real sucess. Except when it was over and the group moved out on Monday, my aunt was no where to be found. She had joined the revival. She didn't return for 18 months..

A side note: Billy took up collections in metal pie tins, so he could hear the money being given.

Hahahahaaa PAT! I loved that story and I know you have a million of them - do stick around and tell us more! I vaguely remember evangelists setting up tents - some bit of memory is sticking in my mind but I can't pull it out!

An aunt joined the circus - NO, NO, the REVIVAL!! Loved it!

Wasn't the book Elmer Gantry about a revivalist - or evangelist I should say!

Here's one poem about Chicago by Carl Sandberg, who focused many of his poems on the city and helped form a literary movement called the Chicago Renaissance:

"HOG Butcher for the World, 
     Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, 
     Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler; 
     Stormy, husky, brawling, 
     City of the Big Shoulders:
 

They tell me you are wicked and I believe them, for I 
     have seen your painted women under the gas lamps 
     luring the farm boys.
 
And they tell me you are crooked and I answer: Yes, it 
     is true I have seen the gunman kill and go free to 
     kill again.
 
And they tell me you are brutal and my reply is: On the 
     faces of women and children I have seen the marks 
     of wanton hunger.
 
And having answered so I turn once more to those who 
     sneer at this my city, and I give them back the sneer 
     and say to them: 
Come and show me another city with lifted head singing 
     so proud to be alive and coarse and strong and cunning.
 
Flinging magnetic curses amid the toil of piling job on 
     job, here is a tall bold slugger set vivid against the 
     little soft cities;
 

Fierce as a dog with tongue lapping for action, cunning 
     as a savage pitted against the wilderness, 
          Bareheaded, 
          Shoveling, 
          Wrecking, 
          Planning, 
          Building, breaking, rebuilding, 
Under the smoke, dust all over his mouth, laughing with 
     white teeth, 
Under the terrible burden of destiny laughing as a young 
     man laughs, 
Laughing even as an ignorant fighter laughs who has 
     never lost a battle, 
Bragging and laughing that under his wrist is the pulse. 
     and under his ribs the heart of the people, 
               Laughing! 
Laughing the stormy, husky, brawling laughter of 
     Youth, half-naked, sweating, proud to be Hog 
     Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with 
     Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation.

A poem that matches our book like a hand in a glove!

That's a marvelous story, Pat! I guess we'll NEVER know what a 17 year old will do, then or now. We love your anecdotes.

Ella, I think Sandburg's poem is EXACTLY right for the raucous, boastful, crowded, energetic Chicago of the 1890's, the city that's expanding in every direction and described so well in DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY. Thanks so much for bringing it to us!

Here's a photo from one of our linked image galleries that I feel perfectly epitomizes that "CITY OF THE BIG SHOULDERS," as Sandburg so wonderfully termed Chicago.

Can't we all just FEEL the energy pulsating out of that 1890 photograph of State Street in Chicago?

Harriet

My great uncle trained race horses for a restaurant owner in Chicago but I am not sure of the name. One that I have never of in modern times.

I love the image galleries,too. Did you see the gallery that refers to the Chicago Fire of 1871? I am wondering if those are photos or artist renditions??

I just went back and looked at the images of the Chicago Fire again in post #38, Ann. I get the impression that most of them are sketches.

I guess the newspapers, magazines and books of the day used artist drawings in just the way that our contemporary publications use photos. I so enjoy sketches, lithographs and photos from past eras. They have such a special "feel" to me. They make the era they depict so alive.

Harriet

Hello everyone! Suburbia is a very desirable place compared to Exburbia (where I live). Suburbia has relatively easy access to a large city with its arts, markets, colleges and libraries. The Exburb in which I live suffers from its isolation from such amenities, from its location between two larger centers, from its 'cultural sparcity' (all is WASP!, and from its minimal budgets. I prefer a community which has a population from varied cultural groups and neighbourhoods rather than sprawl. Competent Urban planners would be nice, but I fear it's too late. We have 4 major highways surrounding the endless residential areas and nary a corner store to be found. I realise that many people who live here are very happy with their locale but in all the other places I have lived there have been at least a few redeeming features. I'd love to live in Chicago, for instance! Thank goodness I discovered SeniorNet. Thank you for being here.

PAMELAM! Now I understand the difference, indeed I do! Thanks for the information - AND,BOY, DO I AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT THAT "Competent Urban planners would be nice, but I fear it's too late."

Are there any of those around anywhere? I don't see any signs in my city of Columbus (which happens to be the capitol of the state) - our downtown is becoming a blight even with a river running through it - our lovely capitol building sitting isolated among memories of grand old days where you could walk among some of the finest retail stores and restaurants to be found in America!

However, our suburbs our blooming, industry has moved there to provide jobs, retailers and restaurants have followed, etc.

Where I live could be considered a suburb, but isn't as it has its own mayor and city government, its high taxes, own schools; however, we are only 15 minutes by expressway from the heart of Columbus.

I am sorry about the isolation you feel - it would be a terrible blow for me to move away from all the amenities I so enjoy!

What we do have in common is our love for SENIORNET AND OUR BOOK DISCUSSIONS - OUR FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER!

SO HAPPY YOU ARE WITH US, PAMELAM, AS WELL AS ALL THE REST OF YOU!

PAMELAM, thanks for defining exburbia - I'd never heard the term before. It does sound terribly isolating. When I lived overseas all neighborhoods had corner grocery stores within a short walking distance. There'd even be a local eatery. I miss that convenience - and sense of neighborhood - since my return to the U.S. It can be found in some small-town USA but there's little employment opportunities.

Yet we've found a home, and neighbors, in the SN community.

Marvelle

MARVELLE - what you are describing overseas is the America I remember as a young person; every neighborhood had its own grocery and drug store. We walked everywhere, no need for a second car and no money to buy one either!

MARJORIE - what can be said for Chicago? Do neighborhoods still exist as we used to know them or have they disappeared?

It is pathetic, I believe, for seniors who are isolated in either their own homes or apartments for often they cannot walk to a grocery or to get their hair done, even to a drug store, but must depend upon others for their everyday needs, particularly if they cannot drive for one reason or another.

Again and again, we can give thanks to the computer and Seniornet - heavens, how I do go on about it! But having had it, I would be lost without it.

ELLA: I don't have any idea what neighborhoods are like in Chicago now. I haven't lived in Chicago since 1954. My relatives all moved to the suburbs. I have a cousin now living near the Museum but never asked him what the neighborhood is like there.

I found that in the huge metropolis of NYC, there were many little neighborhoods with fine restaurants, drugstores, small groceries, even Mailboxes,ETC, flower shops that carry Christmas trees during the season, beauty and barber shops, bakeries and hotels. In the MBE facitlity, many of the folks coming in and the clerks seemed to know and care for each other. It was quite a nice surprise. I am sure that Ella remembers that. Not all big cities lose all of their charm, just some of it. Chicago still has many small neighborhoods up on the northside of the El and there is a huge Polish constituency NW of downtown. I believe the neighborhood around Wrigley Field is still vibrant also.

Marjorie, I too, love old photos and sketches in pencil plus anything done in sepia tones. It does add to the feel of the antiquity of the times, doesn't it? Back in olden times as my kids used to call it!

Amen Ann............NYC

I love NYC also, Judy. There are so many vibrant mini- neighborhoods scattered throughout Manhattan. Marvellous food shops, and reasonable family eating places for those who are familiar with the neighborhood.

Of course there are plenty of posh places also. Those who can, buy...those who can't, window shop.

Harriet

Window shopping, Harriet! I haven't heard that phrase in such a long time and it was so much a part of my youth when Saturdays were spent in that wonderful diversion from an ordinary week. We didn't have much money, but loads of dreams which were encouraged at the movies on Saturday or Sunday afternoons.

Edith Head designed most of the women's clothes in the movies, do you remember that? And Sir Cedric Gibbons (no relation, boo hoo) was always the Art Director of the best movies. Long time ago!

Now I drive to the shopping center and do my errands quickly and early in the day to avoid the crowds! What a difference a "few" years make!

Window shopping???? My grandmother called that a "little look lunch" which she invited me to do many times while I was growing up. And, we truly enjoyed it!

TOMORROW, FOLKS, IS WHEN WE MEET THE DEVIL!! DON'T BE LATE - YOU MAY NEVER MEET HIM AGAIN! HAHAHAHAAAAA

GOOD MORNING TO ALL AND A HAPPY APRIL FOOL'S DAY!

You are NOT being foolish if you join us in this wonderful exploration of the Chicago World's Fair of 1893 and the events surrounding it. Welcome to the formal opening of our discussion. Ella and I are eager to hear any of your comments on the first section of the book. We direct your attention to the starting questions in the heading, and we also welcome any of your own thoughts on the beginning chapters of the book.

"Beneath the gore and smoke and loam, this book is about the evanescence of life, and why some men choose to fill their brief allotment of time engaging the impossible, others in the manufacture of sorrow." (from the chapter Evils Imminent)

Do you see places in this story of the fair where the contrasts between the forces of good and evil intertwine?

Our tale begins at the end of the lives of two friends, Daniel Burnham and Frank Millet, who had been deeply allied in the struggle to create the Chicago fair. I can't help but wonder why our author chooses to open this book, so much of which is about splendor and accomplishment, with one of the greatest maritime disasters of all time? Do you have any theories to share about that?

What 'feel' or tone do you get from the chapter titles? What do you believe the first sentence of the chapter The Black City implies about the brawling, vital city of Chicago? Larson writes:

"How easy it was to disappear."

Is it an ominous beginning? What symbolism, if any, do you see in such a start to the chapter?

Let's look together at our creative architects, Daniel Burnham and John Root. How would you describe the impact of their professional and personal friendship on the growth of Chicago?

What is your opinion of the public mood of the Chicago of the 1890's?

Please do talk about the things that came into YOUR head as you read the beginning of the book. Ella and I eagerly await your thoughts.

Harriet

By book has not arrived yet..there are three books I ordered that have not arrived and of course this is the one I am really looking for. Hopefully it will do so today.. if not I must send B&N an email complaining..

I miss the small complete neighborhoods of my childhood. The corner grocery.., the drugstore, the dry goods store, the shoe repair shop, the taverns, the confectionary stores, the cleaners, etc ...we never owned a car since public transportation was available and cheap and taxis would take the whole family somewhere for less than a dollar. Everything was in walking distance,churches, movies, doctors, dentists,parks, and it was a true diverse neighborhood. We had Polish families, black families in the small houses in the alley, two black school teachers just around the corner from where we lived,Catholics,Protestants, Mormon, and the unchurched, we had single family homes and an apartment , which in my mind we called something other than an apartment house. The Moose Hut was less than a block away with bingo, a huge lot where we flew our kites each spring and a carnival arrived each summer. Everyone had fireworks on the 4th and we sat on our porches and watched the show. I am sure Chicago had the same thing at that time. Well perhaps my book will arrive today. And next week I leave for a week when my youngest marries in NC ...I will miss so much. If the book arrives I will take it with me. ..anna

Do click on this incredible link to the pictures of the buildings of the Fair. The White CityWhen one clicks on each of the pictures portrayed there, two more of that particular are shown along with a small history of that structure. The Choral Hall is incredible to me!!

I feel slightly stupid since I didn't pick up on the fact that the ship that Millet was on was the Titanic until the end of the book. Did I skip something in my reading?? Oh, well!

The beginning of the book with the grand ship described that Burnham was on and then the sinking of his friend's transport of choice sort of describes the whole scenario of this book. Horror intermingled with wonderful accomplishments. This writer takes us right in to the forthcoming story about the fair, Chicago, the mindset of the citizens of the USA during the time, the 'depression' that occurs and right there in the middle of it all, is H H Holmes carrying out his satanical rites with no one even suspicious of his buying and building and hiring and losing of workers. Would that happen today?

And, in the midst of Holmes scary life, the Fair plan is accomplished.

WONDERFUL QUESTIONS HARRIET!

THE DISCUSSION SCHEDULE IS POSTED IN THE HEADING AND AS YOU CAN SEE OUR WEEK IS FULL BEGINNING WITH THE PROLOGUE THROUGH "A HOTEL FOR THE FAIR"

Aboard the Olympic! Why this chapter? Olympic was the Titanic's sister ship and was the first (if my memory serves me right) to reach her in her distress. Larson introduces us to the aged Daniel Burnham in this chapter, he's famous, he realizes his mortality, but he also knows it is the end - not only of his own life but of a century! And change is in the air!

We know that changes were made in ship travel after the Titanic disaster, and we shall see many changes because of Burnham's great and beautiful WHITE CITY that was so successful.

In a way, change is the theme of this book! At least that is the way I saw it! There are so many "firsts" that I almost think we should list them in the heading, do you?

I love Larson's writing, he keeps your interest doesn't he? And that quote, Harriet, from his note in the front of the book is a good summation of this tale. Conflicts between Good and Evil - Black and White - daylight and darkness.

Does your book have a picture of Chicago in 1889? There is only one tall spire - looks like a church spire - and all the other buildings are rather short - no skyscrapers have yet appeared.

But in the very first chapter "The Black City" after telling us of all the troubles of that age, there comes this heartening sentence: "But things were changing."

I'll be back later this evening - I have errands to do this afternoon.

ANNA - hope your book comes soon!!! It's such a good book!

I just reread the beginning the the book and the name Titanic doesn't appear in that section. I guess neither one of us have enough facts in our heads to recognize that it is the Titanic that is being mentioned. I didn't see the movie and the name of the ship Burnham was on might have been in the movie.

Thanks for the link. I checked only 3 buildings -- FineArts, Choral Building, and Women's Building. No time for more this morning. I agree about the inside of the Choral Building. Then when I looked at the inside of the Women's Building it was the same thing. Soaring ceilings so that the people inside are little specks. I remember the entry to the Museum (Fine Arts) being like that also. They were enormous buildings.

I am delighted that in book discussions here we have access to all the resources on the Internet to add to our understanding of the book underdiscussion. In the heading alone we have links to pictures and information from Boston College, The Chicago Historical Society, The Universty of Virginia, and the University of Chicago. If I were just discussing this in a local group, that would not all be available to me with a click of the mouse.

ANN - I just clicked onto that site also - that's just grand, wouldn't you like to go to the Fair today? Hahahahaaa

And all those books about the Fair and the Architects - I think I might want to check one about Olmstead out of my library, he's an interesting character.

That CITY OF THE CENTURY book about Chicago is a great book also, and interesting to read.

Harriet asks if we have a sense of the personalities of Burnham and Root in these first few chapters.

Yes, I got the impression that Burnham was a decisive fellow - a take charge personality - one that I would like, but (and without going to the book) Root was more a dreamer, laid-back sort of guy.

What do you remember from reading these first few chapters?

Personally, I don't like the way Larson divided his book into PARTS - I would rather have just chapters.

later, ella

Yes, Ella, their two personalities complemented each other. Again, black and white, good and evil and with the two men, it was one very businesslike but forward looking and other, more artsy but also more social and able to sell their creations?? Does that fit?

Marjorie, I thought that it was me! So glad to hear that I didn't miss anything. I hate to do that!

This author really has a knack for enfolding the reader into the whole story with such ease. Its like reading well written fiction. And fast moving but complete in detail.

"The Chicago Spirit" - the spirit that reclaimed the city from the devastation of the Great Fire of 1871. However, Chicago had a national reputation of being the city of stockyards, one that butchered hogs; whereas New York City was cultured and refined.

Chicagoans were hoping that if the great World's Fair succeeded it might dispel that myth/fact and perhaps even become the nation's first city, both in population and refinement.

Would you say that today Chicago and New York city vie for two of the largest and best known cities in America? What others would you choose as America's most loved cities?

Here's a clickable to the White Star Line of ships built at the turn of the century - as I remember they were all built in the shipyards of Ireland. There are pictures of the Olympic and the Titanic here: White Star ships

The very first question in the heading asks why we think the author started the book with the shipwreck. Many novels I read start with something about the end of the story and the character then thinks about what happened earlier. I don't know why for sure but I wonder if it is to keep suspense at bay. If we know the outcome before we start the story, we can focus on the story itself. I wonder.

As to the two biggest cities or loveliest in the USA today, Ella, I personally prefer NYC and San Francisco. And one cannot leave out Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Kansas City, Dallas, Ft Worth, San Antonio.

Chicago, at that time, was full of blustery,well informed, confident folks who really were convinced that their city was the best. Its sorry history, being built on a bog-- having a filthy river that flowed into Lake Michigan making the lake a refuse dump, waned for the most part and it did have a good port for shipping. But, I do think that its people are what made it mildly popular. They came from strong European backgrounds, the Polish, Irish, Czechlosvakian. They were anxious to make their city as desirable as NYC. And, of course that beautiful lake which still defines the city.

Annafair, thanks for telling us what's going on with you. Wish you luck with the book arriving soon. It's a good one!

Ann and Marjorie, oh mea culpa! I've seen a few film documentaries on the Titanic and did recognize the scenario. I never even noticed that the name of the Titanic was omitted! It's I who should have read more carefully and slowly. So now I have to wonder why Larson didn't reveal the name of Olympic's sister ship himself. Perhaps there was some purpose in keeping that under his hat for a while? Oh well, all of that will emerge in time, I would think?

Ann, thanks for those great photo links on the fair, and also your thoughts on the opening chapter. You commented that the book described "horror intermingled with wonderful accomplishments." I agree that the author loves to contrast the extremes of that era. Ann, maybe you've focussed into one of the themes of this book?

On the horror side of the spectrum, I particularly liked the introductory image of young Dr. Holmes stepping off a train, surgical valise in hand, in an atmosphere dense with scents of "murdered" cattle and pigs. He finds it all "to his liking." Doesn't that lead the mind to thoughts of the murder of MORE than cattle and pigs? Even though nothing violent happens on any page, the scene is set for mayhem? Doesn't Larson have a special feel for setting a mood? I just love it all!

Ella, I think Larson is drawing the period from 1890 to 1912 with wide brush strokes in order to put the 1890's into perspective? You brought up the theme of "changes." That seems so perceptive to me.

When I consider changes that are "wonderful accomplishments," I think how 1890's America is moving slowly into the century that will one day be considered the "American" century...and boastful, brawling Chicago is eager to compete for honors? Daniel Burnham wanted Chicago to represent America MAGNIFICENTLY in a world's fair and outdo the best that Europe was able to produce in the recent Paris World's Fair of 1889.

Burnham thought the very, very best exhibit that the Paris fair had produced was the recently constructed Eiffel Tower. Over a century later I can still see why Daniel Burnham was impressed.

But doesn't the same thing apply to the Chicago Fair? Doesn't it seem marvelous that, through our computers, we can still view the splendors of that fair? Marjorie described the Women's Building like this:

"Soaring ceilings so that the people inside are little specks."

Wonderful description, Marjorie.

The scene is set for such a fun book!

Harriet

I checked on line and it was mailed Mar 19 which means it should have arrived by now...all of the other books ordered at the same time are here! If it doesnt arrive today I will call them. I want to take it with me when I am away so I can at least know where and what everyone is talking about.

Everyone makes it sound so interesting ..and PLEASE B&N come through I WANT TO GO TO THE FAIR!!!!anna

ANN, you've captured the spirit of the Chicago when you described its people - "They came from strong European backgrounds, the Polish, Irish, Czechlosvakian. They were anxious to make their city as desirable as NYC."

OH, yes, the immigrants had a lot to do I believe with the aura of Chicago - they were hard working, industrious folk, wanting to improve their place in America; we will be getting into all the labor problems later in the book!

But New York City had that influx of immigrants also around the turn of the century and now America seems to be on the wave of another large immigrant force but not necessarily from Europe - they are Asian, Hispanic and Arabic, still wanting to make good in our freedom loving country. One wonders how they will change America in this century.

Chicago had the lake!!! Ann mentioned that, but they had that terrible situation with the Chicago River backing up, changing directions, and good heavens! dead animals floating it in. I'm sure many died from drinking that water, don't you?

BUT THIS IS WHERE THE DEVIL COMES INTO THE STORY! AND THE CHAPTER IS NAMED "THE NECESSARY SUPPLY" - DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE TITLE OF THAT CHAPTER?

I don't! Someone needs to explain that to me or maybe I need to read the chapter over???????????

One thing I do remember from Holmes' first appearance in the book is his childhood - he was a "mother's boy" - picked on by other children!

Golly, we've heard much in the news about children who have been bullied in schools haven't we? I wonder if any studies have been done about that. But Holmes had another factor that I think played into his character - his mother's deep religion and her methods of punishment! Sounds terrible to me to lock a child in the attic for a day with no food in isolation!

Isn't this book fascinating???

Have you noticed all the hints the author gives us about Mudgett/Holmes' memoirs written while in prison?

So we know right away that he was caught eventually!

Flat fever! I've read of "flats" in books, I think that was an expression used around this time and now we call them apartments, is that your understanding?

And Holmes was wise enough to see the trend towards the suburbs, particularly Englewood, a suburb that took its name from a forest in England. It was where the wealthier people were flocking and building lovely big homes.

I wonder if they are still there? There are 100 year old homes - plenty of them - still around.

OH, Harriet, I wanted to comment on that BEAUTIFUL - STUNNING - PICTURE of the Eiffel Tower you put in your post. A magnificent structure - did you all notice it? It's at night and it's glowing and I wonder how many electic bulbs they use to light it like that. I also wonder if it was lit when it was first constructed?

I doubt it, it was too early for electricity wasn't it? I'll have to look that up!

THAT MADE THE WHITE CITY ALL THE MORE IMPRESSIVE, DIDN'T IT? But I think that comes later in the book.

Ella, isn't 'flat fever' the same as 'cabin fever' which we all get at one time or another?

No, Ann, not in the way it is described in the book. People were all looking for "flats" - here I found the reference on page 45.

"As the city's population swelled, demand for apartments turned into "flat fever." When people could not find or afford apartments, they sought rooms in private homes and boardinghouses, where typically the rent included meals."

We all (well, of a certain age! - hahahaa) remember signs of "Rooms for Rent" and boardinghouse before the era of motels.

B&N just informed me they believe my books were lost in the mail..augh ..and the original order was made right after Mar 1 when I knew I would be participating in the discussion. I am told it will now be sent fedex and should be here before I leave for NC...

Boarding houses...I had an aunt who owned one and ran it until I was in my teens when she felt too old to keep it up and perhaps by then the demand wasnt as great any more. I dont see ads for boarding houses any more but do for rooms to let. These usually have private entrances from what I can tell and little contact with the owners.

When we were first married the WWII had been over for 3 years and there few places available for rent. We rented furnished rooms three times ( for various reasons we left the earlier ones until we found the right one with a private bath..on the second floor .separate entrance in one of my friends home.....it was much nicer and the family were already friends so that was a plus as well. Most of my friends who married around that time did the same..some housing for veterans was built but we were settled where we were and stayed there.

AND ALL OF THAT WAS A LONG LONG TIME AGO!!!!!!anna

ELLA: You mentioned the "suburb" of Englewood. When I was growing up (40 years later) Englewood was in the middle of the city Chicago had expanded so much. It is very interesting to get such a new concept of what Chicago was at that time from how I remember it.

In the chapter "Necessary Supply" there was this passage:

Holmes knew -- everyone knew -- that as skyscrapers soared and the stockyards expanded their burchery, the demand for workers would remain high, and that workers and their supervisors would seek to live in the city's suburbs, with their promise of smooth macadam, clean water, decent schools, and above all air untainted by the stench of rotting offal from the Union Yards."

I think that same kind of thing sends people to the surburbs of cities today. I do remember, however, that even though I grew up further from the city than Englewood and 50 years later, when the wind came from the west, the stockyard stench was very apparent.

ELLA: The only thing that I could find in the chapter to describe what "necessary supply" means is the cadavers that were needed for the insurance fraud scheme that Holmes wanted to perpetrate. Although he is painted as someone who people liked, I wonder if some of his coldness and lack of feeling didn't come through somehow.

I found this link when I searched Google for "Englewood, Illinois". An interesting description of the area.

That was interesting, Marjorie, all those railroads, one after the other coming into junctions in Chicago! Whew!

The same expansion went on in all the larger cities in America, where areas once called suburbs became incorporated into the city - and is still going on.

It wasn't too many years ago (don't they go by fast?) that an outerbelt was built all around our city and now the city has expanded beyond that and there is talk of a new outerbelt to surround the old outerbelt and so the farm land of America fades slowly away.

Oh, gosh, I bet you are right about the "the necessary supply" of cadavers! Never thought of that. I believe I read that even doctors were robbing the graves to get cadavers which they would clean and use for research purposes. Horrible to think of but, at the same time, medical research continues on and on......

ANNA! Good news that your books are coming!!!

Which helped me to understand where we were going. Living near St Louis the students from Parks School of Aeronautic of St Louis U had a song they sang about the wind and the stockyards , the Monsanto plant etc. The local stockyards was owned by the husband of one of my aunts. I wish I could recall the lyrics...but they were funny as only college students can write...

I loved reading the excerpts and stories about all the new things that came to pass because of the fair. Never knew the Ferris Wheel was named after the inventor. I love and hate the things since it seemed I was always stuck at the top with the chair swaying...My husband loved them but when we went up in the Eiffel Tower I loved that and he stood in a corner holding on to both sides and looked green around the gills. I was careful not to mention how surprised I was a pilot was getting air sick riding up the Eiffel tower...I just hope the book arrives before I leave so I can read it ..anna

Anna, if you love reading the posts you'll love the book even more, hope you get it soon.

So much in this book - so much history which I love to read. The book mentions the homes of Chicago barons, Marshall Field, George Pullman and Phillip Armour, and says they could be seen walking to work together in the mornings, "a titanic threesome in black."

I guess so! All those names are so familiar to us. I once read a book written by a former Pullman porter and I wish I could remember it; they were, of course, all black people and had strict rules of behavior. They must always be smiling and subservient to the passengers, every request must be complied with or they would be fired.

The Pullman company in Chicago, though, is an interesting story. Look up a book at your library next time you are there. Meanwhile, here's a clickable: Pullman cars

Ella, another interesting book is the biography of Eugene Debs who stood up for the Pullman strikers. I believe that he also planned the strike.

It would seem to me this discussion will for me lead to other books. Pullman, Marshall Field , Armour and Debs..those names sound so familiar so I am sure I have read about them someplace before. My favorite books are biographys ..and these sound like some I would like to pursue.......anna

How easy is it to distinguish between good and evil?

Here are the photos of three Victorian era gentlemen. Two are architectural geniuses, but the third is termed as America's first serial killer. First, let's look at Daniel Burnham and John Root, lead architects of the Chicago World's Fair. Burnham looks like he was an elegant dresser. I was charmed by the exquisite detail work on the lapels of his jacket and vest.

Now, let's look evil in the eye. Here is the Devil himself...the grim reaper that stalked the Chicago Exposition, Herman Mudgett, also later known as Henry Holmes. Would you chat or take a walk with this man? Does he LOOK as evil as he actually was? He was an educated man with a medical degree and it must have been easy to dupe his victims into believing that he was a trustworthy person?

There are those who believe that Holmes was a devoted reader of the works of Arthur Conan Doyle. After all, he chose the last name of Doyle's detective hero, Sherlock Holmes to use as an alias. Yet Henry Holmes preferred to use his own fine brain and sleuthing skills to destroy and harm others.

I don't believe that Henry Holmes was really America's FIRST serial killer. Human nature has too many dark corners, and throughout history there must have been others who perverted all morality and empathetic feelings. Nevertheless, he is perhaps the first American serial killer who was recorded so intensely by the yellow press of the day?

Of course across the pond, in England, another serial killer was wreaking a bloody path simultaneously. Can you imagine Henry Holmes reading the newspapers avidly about his British counterpart, Jack the Ripper?

Is a Henry Holmes born with a twisted soul, or do his perversions come from his experiences in life? Do you have any opinions about that?

Harriet

It is DIFFICULT - EXTREMELY DIFFICULT - Harriet, to tell which of those respectable looking men is a serial killer, whether he is America's first or not doesn't really matter at all, his was a terrible story.

Thanks for those pictures!

Somehow I thought Root was the slimmer of the two architects, but he is rather chunky in that picture and all of them somber, of course. You didn't smile for photos in those days - but those long-handlebar moustaches are something aren't they?

Do you like the looks of those? And did they have to be trimmed all the time? And how did they curl like that? With a curling iron? Hahahaha

The chapter titled "Pilgrimage" depicts the challenge that lay ahead for Burnham and Root, and for Anna's sake, I'm going to type in a few sentences describing the plans:

"The drawing envisioned a mile-square plain on the lakeshore sculpted by dredges into a wonderfland of lagoons and canals. Ultimately, the designers knew, the expostion would have hundreds of buildings, including one for each state of the union and for many countries and industries, but on the drawing they sketched only the most important, among them five immense palaces sited around a central Grand Court.

Burnham would have to build a railroad within the fairgrounds to transport steel, stone, and lumber to each construction site. He would have to manage the delivery of supplies, goods, mail and all exhibit articles sent to the grounds by transcontinental shipping companies....He would need a police force and a fire department, a hospital and an ambulance service. And there would be horses, thousands of them-something would have to be done about the tons of manure generated each day."

Imagine that gigantic undertaking? I know what they did with some of that manure as I remember reading they piled it around fire hydrants to keep them from freezing in the winter! I think also they used it to fertilize the grounds, but am not sure just where.

Did each country send over their own builders? Or did they contract their buildings to local people - I'm not sure how that works in a world's fair - does anyone else?

You know the closest I have come to something of that order was a number of years ago - maybe 15? our city played host to the Internationl Flower Show - and it was named AMERIFLORA that year. Many nations sent over landscapers and builders to represent their country in very imaginative ways.

It was shortly after the Berlin Wall came down because a huge chunk of it was displayed and later donated to Columbus where I think it resides in a museum, am not sure about that, but I have a picture of it with graffitti painted on it. I could have gone there every day and should have probably, it was truly magnificent.

HARRIET: The photos were interesting. I did not like the look of Henry Holmes at all. The other two men's eyes were turned away from the camera but Holmes seemed "seedy" to me. I will never know if that was because I knew ahead of time what he had done (or as much as has been discussed so far).

I am still amazed at the scale of the Fair and the amount of work that went into it. To have it last only 6 months seems a travesty.

He looked seedy, Marjorie? I kept staring at that picture of Holmes and I thought his eyes seemed a bit shifty ---

Hahahhahaaa

What's in a photo?

I think we are both influenced by the book perhaps??????

ELLA: I am not sure exactly what I meant by "seedy" but that is the word to came to me as I was typing. I didn't like his look. Shifty is a good word also but he seemed a little vacant. and that may have been because of the book Not quite present.

You know, at first I tried hard to look at Holmes objectively. If I didn't know who he was, I would have said that he had sleepy eyes, kind of like the actor Robert Mitchum.

But I DO know who he is and shifty and seedy are wonderful words to describe his expression, Marjorie and Ella. I get negative vibrations at the sight of him.

Harriet

"What personal strengths do you feel enhanced the successful architectural partnership of Burnham and Root?

Before they tackled the job of the Fair, these two were successful architects, having designed the first building in the country ever to be called a skycraper and every year some new building of theirs became the tallest in the world.

Their offices were in the ROOKERY, a building Root had designed, and as I remember from reading the book a few years - City of the Century - this building is very unique!

I cannot remember if we visited it on our Architectural Tour of Chicago or not, but we should have.

Their successful partnership was based on friendship, don't you agree? Both probably admired traits in the other they did not possess. Burnham was decisive, a leader, a charmer, whereas Root was the one who could dream, who could draw, who could sing - rather a romantic maybe? He married a woman he knew was dying, wan't that a heartwarming story? Certainly the bride knew she was dying but wanted to marry, how very sad.

It was Root who solved the problem of the soil which was nothing but clay and sand saturated with water - engineers called it gumbo.

He built grids of some sort - my eyes sort of wander when I read technical material such as this although I should make myself concentrate more - I know!

He solved the problem for all of Chicago's builders from then on - he should have been commended for that!

Here it is - THE ROOKERY - and other photos of Chicago's landmarks. I think I do remember Frank Lloyd Wright doing something to the building in later years - maybe I can find something out about them.

There was someone from Chicago who was going to participate in our discussion that would know more about this building I'm sure.

The Rookery, a Famous Building in Chicago

ELLA: I checked out the link you posted of the Rookery and then looked to find the address of the Rookery (LaSalle Street). It is not a building that I remember particularly from when I was growing up. In this link The Rookery looks similar in style to buildings near where my father had his offices just south of downtown. It makes sense that later buildings might have immitated the style of The Rookery.

The Rookery Top Stairs are so beautiful! but the building doesn't make much impression on me.

I thought that Holmes with that huge mustache looks like he's gasping for air. Mouth partially hanging open! What a creep!

The pictures look like stuffy people to me but I know better because I read the book!!

We've had thunderstorms all day and finally it seems to be clearing.

I love those Rookery stairs also, Ella. They have a beautiful old fashioned craftsmanship that is hard to come by now-a-days, I would think. It has a timeless kind of beauty, but, like Ann, I'm not as fond of the exterior of the building.

The outside of the Rookery seems to me to be a product of its time, now outdated, and I would admire it for its historical symbolism rather than as an example of current beauty. Perhaps its historical and symbolic value is part of why it has been designated a Chicago landmark. In any case, I think you're right, Marjorie. The Rookery set the standard for its time, and must have been widely imitated in the surrounding area?

Isn't it amazing to realize that, in his youth, Burnham couldn't settle into any particular job and his father worried about him? He had difficulty taking tests and always gave the impression of having much less ability than was actually the case. That's not an uncommon handicap, but it IS hard to overcome. In his later life, Burnham never forgot his feelings about being a "late bloomer." It was his association with John Root that changed his confidence.

"Burnham took to Root immediately. He admired Root's...stance at the drafting table. They became friends, then partners. Something about the partnership with Root bolstered him. It filled an absence and played to both men's strengths."

Whatever Burnham's inadequacies may have been in relation to written academic tests, he was always at his best meeting others on a personal basis. In the course of an architectural commission, he impressed the very influential John Sherman who ruled the Chicago stockyards, and eventually married Sherman's pretty daughter, Margaret.

I guess the two architects had an intangible chemistry that seemed to enhance their skills and improve their performances. In addition, how's this for an example of forward looking employer-employee relations? The two installed a gym for employees and permitted games of handball during lunch hours. It sounds like even the employees of Burnham and Root were fortunate that they found each other and formed their productive alliance.

Harriet

Gyms and handball??? Sounds like Silicon Valley firms and Microsoft. Seems like wherever creativity flows, the need for "recess" rears its head. How forward thinking of Burnham and Root to recognize this need! They were ahead of their time, weren't they?

Did you look at the pictures of the Monadnock building? Burnham designed that too and years ahead of the Fair.

When I realized that those wonderful gorgeous buildings would be torn down and that the poor would be out in the cold of one of the worst winters of the century, I thought, hmmmmm, why didn't someone at least consider leaving them up until the weather was warm and using them for the homeless??

Ann, here's the Monadnock Block. I looked it up on the very excellent site that Marjorie provided. It's less ornate and a forerunner of future architectural trends, isn't it?

Actually, what I know about architecture could fit in the head of a pin. I do know that I felt moved when I read the quote by Burnham somewhere in the first section of the book that he wanted the Chicago Fair to be a "monument to architecture."

That statement struck me as the kind of thing a man would say only if he was driven by a deep love for his chosen field. When I was skimming links, looking for pictorial sites that would enhance parts of this book, I ran into pictures of some later architectural buildings, and the graphics info DID credit the structures of the Chicago Exposition as being an influence on their design. I don't remember where I found them any more, but Burnham seems to have achieved his wish, didn't he?

Somehow, Burnham emerges for me as a more three dimensional person than Root.. Is that true for anyone else here? Yet Root was the artistic genius of the team, a sensitive, musical, poetic man. I wonder why he doesn't seem more real to me?

I'm confused. I do know that the buildings of the Chicago Fair were ultimately torn down, and the waste of it is very sad to me. I think they were not built for structural permanence due to the restrictions of time and money that Burnham and Root had to function under. Are THOSE the buildings you're referring to in your last paragraph, Ann?

Harriet

B&N promises my book is on its way just in time for me to leave for NC I wlll be away from the 9th to the 17th and most likely wont have an opportunity to check in. I also want to let you know my computer or seniornet or something is giving me a big pain in the you know where. I find it wont let me write ..dumps me before I can post etc ..I am in hopes when my son in law reformatts my HD all of these quirks will disappear .. it is aggravating to say the least. Thanks for trying to help me to know what is going on ..and if I dont reply please know I it isnt for lack of appreciation but a recalcitrant computer...anna

Harriet, yes, I think time constraints was the main reason why there was only one permanent building, but I must look into that question more - I'll read that portion of the book again! Perhaps it was the money situation? Or the soil possibly - remember all that special grid work that had to be done for a permanent building in Chicago?

I do remember they used that "staff" stuff - that stuff of "staff?" Hahahaaa I had never heard of that before had you? It seemed as though it was more like plaster of paris, but here again I must refer back to the book. Back later on that.

ANNA - WE'RE SO SORRY YOU MUST LEAVE US, BUT I KNOW IT IS FOR A VERY IMPORTANT REASON!!! INDEED!! Have a great time and I hope you return when the trip is over.

Before we leave this portion of the book so noted in the Discussion Schedule (we still have 3 days, but....) I think we have not done justice to that chapter "Aboard the Olympic."

The Fair's purpose, of course, was to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Columbus's discovery of America and under Burnham, its chief builder, it was enchanting - the WHITE CITY.

It lasted just 6 months but recorded 27.5 million visits at a time when the country had a population of just 65 million! That's staggering!

Visitors for the first time tasted a snack called Cracker Jacks and a new breakfast food called Shredded Wheat; whole villages were imported from Egypt, Algeria, Dahomey - the Cairo exhibit contained 26 distinct buildings and included a 1500 seat theatre!

How could they have eaten cracker jacks with no ballgame?

Listen to this statistic! A single exhibit hall had enough interior volume to have housed the U.S.Capitol, the Great Pyramid, Winchester Cathedral, Madison Square Garden and St. Paul's Cathedral - all at the same time!

When it says "volume" there does it mean space or what does that mean?

It was called "the greatest event in the history of the country since the Civil War" and it out-Eiffeled the Eiffel Tower with the fair's emblem - which we have yet to discuss!!!

Too many illustrious visitors to name!!! We'll come to them.

BUT THIS WAS A FABULOUS OCCASION IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY - OUR FIRST WORLD'S FAIR! AND IT HERALDED IN NEW CENTURY - ONE CALLED THE GREAT INDUSTRIAL AGE OF AMERICA!

later - my husband just came in with a chocolate cake! hmmmmmmm

Well Anna, it's still great to hear from you.

I also wait for my son to visit whenever I run into computer problems. I surely couldn't manage without his help. We're both so lucky to have computer-savvy sons who give our beloved computers a helping hand.

So glad you're keeping in touch. It's really appreciated.

Harriet

Hi Harriet! WE're posting together, I always make mistakes in my post and have to correct it - off to have cake and milk. I do want to answer that Whitechapel question in the heading and look up "staff" - is the right name for the stuff?

I never got the book.I am sorry but am reading the posts. I used to live in Chicago, now Ilive about 100 miles east of it.

The Whitechapel Club, a very strange club, was composed of street-hardened journalists with a macabre sense of humor, really! I have an idea that the author in his research read something about it in connection with this period in Chicago's history and it fit and he used it, don't you?

I have skimmed his citations in the back of the book and many of them came from the Chicago Tribune. Need I say more? Hahahaaaa

But isn't it somehow wonderful that the paper still exists; it is more than 100 years old as is a number of our newspapers throughout the country. We used to have two dailies in Columbus, OHio, now we have one but it has been around as long as I can remember!

That stuff of "staff" is further along in the book. I have a bookmark for when our first week is over and will keep that question in mind for next week, unless you have a good idea about it now?

MARJORIE - do you?

ANN - ARE YOU AROUND?

Here's tidbit about the Whitechapel:

n the summer of 1889, in the rear room of Henry Kosters' Chicago newspaper-district saloon, a small group of literary-minded newspapermen founded a press club that they called the Whitechapel Club--a name they borrowed from the London slum where Jack the Ripper was stalking young women to murder and mutilate.

So maybe it was inserted because it still existed during the Fair and Chicago had its own Jack the Ripper.

If I remember the book says that some of the street people burned down the buildings. It just seemed to me that while they were still standing, they would have at least sheltered the homeless from the freezing cold wind off Lake Michigan.

I'm not sure what 'volume' means when its use here, in this context. Volume in geometry means the cubical measurement of say, a box. How much air would the box hold? LengthXwidthXheigth=the volume of the box.

GINGER!!! YOU USED TO LIVE IN CHICAGO?

How old were you then? Do you remember any of these buildings? Have you ever taken that architectural tour of the city?

I'm sure you went downtown and walked up and down the Magnificent Mile to do some window shopping?

Did you go to the beach much - or the Lake? Do any boating?

Do tell us of your experiences with that great city!

I lived there as a child before I started school, we lived in an apartment then. Then again later on in a trailer in a park by lake Michigan. Later in life there was No work where I live so went to Chicago had an apartment and worked two jobs one in a printing place and another where I rapped paper for shipping. Both good jobs but a place in my town was hiring so came home.

I fished on the pier when I had time ah fresh Perch, I fillet them and then cooked them right away, Now that is some good eating.

I do like to visit Chicago but am a country bumkin at heart so stay here. Seen Soyna Henne when young, Mom took me many times to see the Christmas Tree in the Marshall Field building and that was a sight to see as it went up two or three stories up.

My father worked for the Kellog construction co when I was young, the main office was in NYC but they had a big office in Chicago also.

They had friends that worked on the trolley I think any how he was one of those people that carried candy etc. on a tray and gave me candy of course I loved that, then they had friends that were interior decorators they had there shop and apt. in Willmet (sp) a suburb of Chicago and it was just beautiful to me. They went all over for the big racetracks all over the states.

Architectural tour of the city you bet, I think Frank Loyd Wright was a reliative (sp) Not sure tho. My madian name is Wright. I sure enjoyed the Chicago book gathering we went to to, You were there and seen one of the homes Frank Loyd Wright built. Oh the memories of Chicago, so many. May post more later as this is surley the longest post that I have ever posted.
Ginger

Oh as an adult I have been to the Museum of Science and all the attractions in that that area also, Simply loved the zoo with the King corbra's and the other one with the porpoises. Chicago is still a "Great" city to visit. Thanks for the invite even tho I do Not know much about the fair there except that it was in Chicago and had to be something "Great".

Read all those wonderful links that Hariett and Ella put in the header. The pictures alone are worth the search and there's much history written about the Fair that goes with the pictures. Makes for a nice indoor trip on a rainly or cold winter day!!

Ella and Ann, I think you've hit on the reason for the Whitechapel Club. It shows a macabre sense of humor from the reporters who daily covered stories of murder and mayhem in Chicago.

I thought their jobs must have created an atmosphere violent enough so they needed to find a way to deal with their feelings. Imagine, they called their club president "The Ripper!" They brought the stories of violence they had witnessed to their club and surrounded themselves with the appurtenances of death.

Did this provide an outlet for their horror? Or did it titillate their senses with the scandals of their time? Who knows? The book claims they drank a lot in their clubhouse...isn't that an honorable vice for newsmen of most eras? They seemed to delight in outrageous behavior surrounding rituals of death.

I don't know if anyone, including the newspapers, knew of the existence of Henry Holmes in the early part of the Chicago Fair because I haven't finished reading the book very, very carefully yet. When the police finally became aware of the existence of a real killer in their midst, the press went into a frenzied overdrive of headlines. They had a field day with the REAL Jack-the-Ripper type of murderer in Chicago.

I think the incident also set a tone in the book. We became aware of the murderer across the sea that everyone knew about, and the ominous potential of the secret murderer lurking near the unsuspecting young women of Chicago.

Ginger, what wonderful memories of Chicago! How exciting that you might be a relative of Frank Lloyd Wright. Do you know if the relationship stemmed from your mother? Or from your father? THANKS FOR ALL THOSE WONDERFUL ANECDOTES.

I see how much we both enjoy old photographs, Ann. Aren't computers wonderful? Isn't Seniornet wonderful? IT SEEMS A MIRACLE TO ME THAT WE CAN BRING SO MANY PARTS OF OUR WONDERFUL BOOK TO LIFE WITH OLD PICTURES OF THE PEOPLE AND STRUCTURES OF 1893'S WHITE CITY! It's a wonderful thing about armchair travel...there's no luggage to pack. hahaha.

In the chapter, The Necessary Supply Henry Holmes enters Chicago and we learn something of his unsavory background and ways of relating to other people. Do any of you have any comments about our anti-hero?

Harriet

My madian name was Wright so Frank Loyd Wright would be on my fathers side.Many of them were in construction as was my dad, most were business men of some sort.
Ann,
I have seen the pictures that Ella has posted and you are right that the trip was worth it. Time seems to go so fast now that there just does Not seem to be enough of it in a day to do All the things that I would like to, of course getting cable tv and the jacuzzi has not help me to have more time but it has help my health.
Gingee

HARRIET: I don't know if I am jumping ahead too much. I have just been going quickly over the first group of chapters for this first week of the discussion and have been captured by the first paragraph in A Hotel for the Fair.

Holmes's new idea was to turn his building into a hotel for visitors to the [Fair] ... just comfortable enough to justify a large fire insurance policy. After the fair he intended to burn the building to collect the insurance and, as a happy dividend, destroy whatever surplus "material" might remain in its hidden storage chambers.

This certainly sets the stage for evil to strike at the Fair. He is portrayed as without a conscience, cunning, and deliberate in his evil planning. I can only be glad that my grandparents never came in contact with him.

If I had met him then, would I have recognized the danger he poses. Probably not. I don't look for evil in the people I meet. The way that he goes about his business without causing any suspicions to arise among the people he meets certainly says that he is good at hiding his real self from the outside world. Does he understand how evil he is? Maybe not. Maybe, since he has no "normal" feelings for other people, he just thinks what he is doing is perfectly reasonable.

Just revisited this discussion as I'd received the book for Christmas. I've lived in Chicago since 1959 so I'm familiar with the history & politics since then ,actively taking part when I became a citizen in 1979. It's also (to me) the best place after London I could think of to live in. Columbus gal's comments about newspapers ...the Kiplinger program for working journalists is at UO at Columbus..my son who trained at Chicago's City News Bureau, is a graduate of that program! Interesting book giving us a glimpse into history, whetting the appetite to learn more. Richard M. Daley was the current Mayor Richard J. Daley's Dad by the way. Colkot

Do you mean the Kiplinger program at OSU??? Your son attended school here?? My son did too but he's a system administrator for the math department.

Having helped to design and build four homes, the short time that they have to get this all together amazes me. All through the reading, I had this anxious feeling that they would never succeed. I think you have to be one who realizes the intricacies of building and preparing the grounds in such a short time would be considered impossible in today's world.

That Holmes was able to get away with hiring and firing so many laborers means that communications weren't up to our speed for sure. Can you imagine a man getting away with such practices today?? And, hardly ever paying them?? His reputation would have surely crashed and no one would have worked for him in today's world.

All of this and they were still having meetings about what the Fair was going to look like and Olmstead must have been frantic to get started on the landscaping. To be able to mollify him was quite a chore for Burnham. And, the committees!! And who had jurisdiction over what phases!! I am surprised Burnham didn't have a heart attack or a nervous breakdown. My gosh, what a nightmare!

In Studs Terkel's (another Chicago citizen) book, "Hope Dies Last", there is a quote that fits this Chicago and world's fair. At least, IMHO.

" In the chapter about Mel Leventhal in Studs' book, Mel says:"Everything meaningful that's ever happened in the world, any change, any improvement comes about because of optimism. The pessimists don't get anything done. And you've got to see it not in terms of the moment but in terms of the long view, the long haul."

WELCOME COLKOT! YOU'VE READ THE BOOK! WONDERFUL! DO JOIN US WHILE WE TALK ABOUT THIS AMAZING FEAT OF THE WORLD'S FAIR.

"It's also (to me) the best place after London I could think of to live in."

Chicago is!!!!

How about that, folks! We've talked all about Chicago and its wonderful buildings situated on the Lake and now we have a person who thinks it compares with London!

Thanks, COLKOT, for that comment.

I agree, ANN, that is amazing that Holmes was able to build that monstrousity of a hotel; obviously they had no building inspectors in those days!

Strangely enough, as I read through the chapters dealing with Holmes I made very few pencil marks (it's my book so I can pencil in at my liberty and I love that) and now I wonder why?

Perhaps it is because I felt it impossible that everyone was so naive about this horrid man even though he was charming and pleasing and affectionate towards the ladies - well, everyone, actually!

And, as Ann said, creditors were always after him, how did he get away with it!

One man's opinion of Holmes:

"He was handsome and clean and dressed well and spoke in fine sentences. His gaze was blue and forthright. In conversation he listened with an intensity that was almost alarming as if Belknap were the most fascinating man in the world"

And there were many more people just like man! Although some men did find something about Holmes that made them uneasy but couldn't define it.

As early as 1885 the term "psychopath" was used to describe such men and 50 years later a Dr. Cleckley stated: "So perfect is his (a psychopath) reproduction of a whole and normal man that no one who examines him in a clinical setting can point out in scientific or objective terms why, or how, he is not real."

Could any of us have known if we had met him? I doubt it!

later

WELCOME COLKOT!

Please stay with us. We would love to hear your comments. We love history also. Have you had a chance to look at the old photos and illustrations in our heading links? They're truly a time travel trip from your armchair!

Marjorie, who could blame you for feeling that you wouldn't recognize Holmes for the monster that he is! He ACTED normally in public, but you gave the most perfect analysis of his true personality. That was just great!

It's chilling to think that it is STILL not so easy to recognize a psychopath. Such a man has learned to simulate normalcy, but he feels none of the conscience or sensitivity that the rest of us feel about relating to others.

Ella, I think he got away with his terrible acts because there was no nationwide system of computers tracking the terrible disappearances that accompanied every location he lived in. A psychopath can still function in our society until he begins his criminal activities. Then I believe that modern cooperative police techniques and computers would have a good chance of detecting the pattern of his crimes, even if he changes his geographic location often.

Holmes was ruled by bizarre desires, sadism...can you imagine preplanning the installation of lubricated chutes to dispose of human bodies in his hotel? WHEW! As Ann pointed out, he HAD to keep firing workers as construction progressed on his building for fear that some employee, if he stayed too long, would put together the total perverted picture of all the strange features in his hotel.

Isn't it remarkable that FREDERICK OLMSTEAD agreed to work on the Fair with Burnham and Root? Wasn't he a distinguished looking old gentleman?

There was such a comparatively short time available to do the landscaping, and landscaping is an art that requires TIME to grow to its loveliest.. Olmstead had to design for natural beauty that could peak in a relatively short time span.

Olmstead was an older generation than his colleagues, and not in perfect health. Of course he had some prior knowledge of the Jackson Park site because he once had investigated the possiblity of designing a park there. Now he had a chance to create the lagoons and cool waterways that he had once visualized for that location in an even more grand setting. That must have made him doubly invaluable to the frantic architectural team.

Harriet

HARRIET: Thanks for the link to the picture of Olmstead. I like the way he looks. He seems a pleasant man -- maybe it is just the white beard that makes me think so. At least we know he is one of the "good guys" in this story.

I took a look at more pictures this time and found a couple that I thought were very interesting:

Steel supports for Manufactures Building Notice how small the people are in comparison to the building going up.

Construction Workers (skeletal buildings in the background)

If you click on the links below the pictures, and/or on the word "gallery" at the top right on the page, you will find even more pictures.

I am glad I was not trying to work in that desolute place.

HARRIET - you made a good point and I do want to go back to the book - wouldn't you think reading it once would do it? Hahahahaaaa Not for me!

"There was such a comparatively short time available to do the landscaping, and landscaping is an art that requires TIME to grow to its loveliest.. Olmstead had to design for natural beauty that could peak in a relatively short time span.">

Yes, indeed, anyone who has ever planted something in the fall (in the midwest of course) knows it takes a whole season until spring to see the results! And Chicago was definitely and is MIDWEST!

As I've spent a couple of hours in our yard this afternoon - SUCH A GORGEOUS SPRING DAY OUTSIDE, OH I LOVE IT - I was thinking of Olmstead and how perturbed he must have been as the months went by and he couldn't get started on his grand scheme for the Fair!

And living up to his reputation! He had already done such magnificent work in his lifetime and, he would have wanted for this job to be just as great, and he must have known that his health was going - how old was he at this time, I'll look that up!

Central Park was his greatest, don't you think? Here are a couple of links to it that might be of interest. Central Park

And another: Central Park

I've been in parts of it twice, have never been to the zoo though - has anyone? I went to the Bronz Zoo one time which is one of the finest in the land.

This World's Fair might have been Olmstead's last work and no wonder his health was failing, all those delays!

MARJORIE! Thanks for putting in those links. That delicate steel framework looks like a giant animal in one of Disney's films - how did they ever get that framework up? I don't see a crane, unless it's that thing way high in the air, but that doesn't look like a modern-day crane.

Maybe it was put up like they did a barn raising back in the old days? They did the framework on the ground and then they all lifted it up! No, they couldn't that - it was too high! How did they do it?

And those construction workers didn't work that day! No way!! Look at how clean they are and they have suits and hats on! COME ON! They just dressed up for the picture and stuck a couple of shovels in the guys' hands. Hahahaaa

Definition in my dictionary:

psychopath - A person with a personality disorder, especially one manifested in aggressively antisocial behavior.

Does it fit Holmes?

How about a "sociopath"? Maybe that would fit better. I will look it up later.

I loved the Central Park site but it would take another discussion to talk about the history of that place. The park is huuuuuuuuuuuuuge!! 863 acres!!

Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence,they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion, it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

My dog barked to let me know someone was at the door ( I dont hear the door bell ) and when I reached the door there was my fedex package with my book !!!!!!!

LOL Now after reading all of your comments on the very terrible man I dont think I want to take it to the beach with me! What could I say when my grandchildren would ask :What are you reading Nana? ) I thought I might take it with me anyway for private reading but then decided reading alone at night in a house I am not familiar with just might be too spooky, so I am going to leave it home...and read when I am in my own bed with my good dog beside me and all the lights on!!!!!!! See you next week...I do wish it had arrived when it was supposed to. anna

Thanks for inviting me to participate..I'm in Santa Monica CA for the next few days so don't have my book at hand.. will keep in touch when I get back to Chicago...love old pix..one of my teenage interests was roaming round the City of London after WW2 to see how many of the old curiously named churches were left after all the bombing. I do have a photo of St Paul's Cathedral I took (from Lower Thames St )which has absolutely NOTHING around it probably about 1946-7. Maybe the London Archives might like to have it. Colkot

ANN - in my opinion that is a much better description of Holmes. Thank you for that, it describes the man very well. His emotions, towards these women, certainly served an ulterior motive!!!

We were talking earlier about Olmsted and I wonder why he took the job; he had already made his reputation and didn't need the work. And he was a sick man; the only explanation possibly was a letter written by Burnham which said:

"...The reputaion of America is at stake in this matter .....As an American citizen, you have an equal interest in furthering the success of this great and grand undertaking...."

Smart words from Burnham. He appealed to the man's patriotism, but when Olmsted saw Jackson Park, he was very dismayed:

"If a search had been made for the least parklike ground within miles of the city, nothing better meeting the requirement could have been found."-Olmsted

When you read that, you do wonder how it all came together, don't you?

Is it still called Jackson Park today? Or what is that area known for? Is there any monument or placque of any kind that commemmorates the site of the World's Fair of 1893?

Maybe we will come to a statement about that at the end of the book?

A number of years ago my daughter and I were wandering around at the base of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and we came upon the ruins of an Exposition and were entranced. Now, of course, I forget the dates of the occurrence, but there were columns and a couple of monuments telling all about it.

Tomorrow we begin the next section of the book and we'll be putting up new questions tonight.

ANNA! OKAY, WE WILL CONCEDE THAT IT IS AN ADULT BOOK!!! HAHAHAAA HOPE TO SEE YOU WHEN YOU RETURN!

COLKOT! Yes, do join us, even though you don't have the book in hand, you HAVE read it and some of our conversation will spark your memory I bet.

WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE A NEW PERSON IN OUR MIDST! WHAT'S THE WEATHER LIKE IN CA?

What years were you in London? Shortly after the war? I would be very interested in hearing a little of what you saw in "bombed-out London." I spent 2 weeks there last summer and loved every minute of it - would like to spend 2 weeks every summer there!

We have new questions in the heading now for your perusal!

Do they bring any thoughts to mind of Chicago in 1890?

I was there in '53 and St Pauls was still not repaired . In fact the whole city of Mainz Germany was still in ruins...and while we were in Rhien-Main ..there were many areas we were prohibited from entering..in fact that was true in London as well.

I had always hoped to go back and see if everything had been finally restored.

Welcome to our discussions ...I have been here for about five years and would be lost without the wonderful discussions and in depth look into the books we read...Hope to see you a lot..I have a brother in Sacramento ..took a train there a few years ago..Didnt want to drive by myself .. when my husband was alive we did that ..so the train was really interesting and I COULD SIGHT SEE and just enjoy and not miss any by driving...anna

ELLA: As far as I know, the area is still called Jackson Park. I remember there was a golf course at the southeast end of the Park when I was in elementary school. COLKOT has been there more recently than I have.

I am remiss because I haven't even started the chapters for this second week of the discussion. I will have to get to it.

ANN: I agree that "sociopath" is a good word to describe Holmes as he is portrayed in the book.

Maybe the reason that ocurred was Burnham's dedication to the building of the Fair in Chicago. He seemed to be determined to put his city on the map and truly believed in the Fair and its possibility of bringing beauty to the architecture of the US. I think that maybe the five Eastern architects believed he might be right and it would certainly help their businesses and reputations to soar if Chicago outshone Paris. After all, they were businessmen, not just architects.

GOOD MORNING TO ALL ON THIS FIRST DAY OF THE SECOND SECTION OF OUR BOOK.

Ned and his wife Julia were representative of the people who saw Chicago's growth as an economic opportunity for themselves. Ned wound up in the employ of a man who, to him, seemed like a dynamic young tycoon. Henry Holmes was the owner of a huge building who also owned the pharmacy within it.

ELLA, you asked if Ned was naive? Didn't he notice the attentions his employer extended to his wife and sister? Didn't he see the eager response of the women? Wasn't it apparent that the women glowed at the interest of their employer?

Well, Ned didn't strike me as the sharpest tack in the box. He was not a man who seemed to think deeply on causes and effects, or to question events around him. At one point, Holmes asked Ned to help him ascertain the effectiveness of one of his soundproof chambers. It didn't occur to Ned to wonder why such a room was needed?

Or maybe Ned DID wonder, but was afraid of questions that might change the rosy economic picture that Holmes controlled? To a family that had drifted and lived through hard times, life in Chicago was a miracle of prosperity, and Holmes was the wizard who presided over the magic? Holmes employed Ned, his wife Julia, and his sister, Gertrude. Holmes even provided their family living quarters. HOW MUCH NED MUST HAVE WANTED TO AVOID CONTROVERSY WITH HIS BOSS!

DIDN'T YOU LOVE THE IMAGE OF THE FIVE EMINENT ARCHITECTS TRAVELING TO CHICAGO IN THE SAME TRAIN TOGETHER? It evoked such a feel of another age! The train, the carriages, the Hotel Wellington...even the immaculate tuxedo and the boutonnierre that each man wore at the lavish dinner hosted for them. SUCH FUN!

Didn't Burnham also hope to overcome the provincial image that clung to Chicago by presiding over the construction of a world class fair? There were those who were condescending about Burnham's beloved Chicago. They felt that "provincial" Chicago could never have anything more than a "country" fair.

Seems strange to us now, doesn't it? I would never think of Chicago, with its skyscrapers as anything but a sophisticated world hub of a city.

Harriet

Yes, those are all good reasons, ANN, for those architects to come to Chicago, maybe, but with the fact that their reputations had already been made and their fortunes they hardly needed to tackle another, did they?

Wasn't it all a dream - an appealing dream, to be sure, but it was so far from their home city and how could they communicate and work so far from their offices?

What I wondered is why Burnham and the Columbian Exposition Company needed to hire these famous architects? There were firms in Chicago, and money was an issue all along, and wouldn't it have been great to have been able to say it was all done with local talent?

Less expensive with local firms?

There was Louis Sullivan, the architect of the famous AUDITORIUM, the biggest pivate building in America that seatted more people than the Metropollitan Opera House of NYC and was air conditioned to boot! (didn't we see that in Chicago>)

His name is down in history for his own sake - click here: Louis Sullivan, but also for hiring and training Frank Lloyd Wright.

Sullivan did plan one building for the Fair, the permanent one I believe, but we will get to the buildings in good time.

Furthermore, what was so great about building a FAIR??? Particularly one that was not going to be permanent?

Olmsted at first was rather indignant - HE DID NOT DESIGN FAIRS!! If it had not been for Ellsworth's (a friend of Burnham's) persuasion and Ellsworth's money, he may not have come to Chicago at all.

Olmsted said his landscape designs were planned for the future, not the present. The results were to evolve and the whole effect not to be seen for many years.

Was it the challenge of instant landscaping, something entirely new, that decided Olmsted? However, Olmsted had one advantage over the other architects. He had knowledge of Jackson Park, having studied Jackson Park twenty years earlier and envisioning what he could do with it.

Oh, agreed, HARRIET, definitely the Chicagoans needed to overcome its reputation of a hog-butchering, stench-filled city and they were eager to do so. Don't you think that Chicagoans had an inferiority complex and needed the big city guys?

And these fellows were getting big fees? About $300,000 each for just the design? Wow!

Burham, I think, just had a salary of $360,000 for the whole shebang! Getting it all together! I think the money for those big city architects could have been spent in a better way, perhaps?

But we'll never know.

later, eg

I tried to post earlier today but AOL kept kicking me off line.

When reading this section I was struck by how baren Jackson Park was. What an awful place to use to try to create the wonderland that was envisioned. And how marvelous it was for me, and many others, that they did just that. The Jackson Park I knew consisted of golf courses, piers at the beach for picnics, and the wonderful grassy Midway that stretched alongside the buildings of the University of Chicago where I attended high school. We lived at the southeastern edge of Jackson Park for many years in a well-established neighborhood. What would that have been without the Fair?

I wonder if the eastern architects were brought in because the Fair was not only Chicago's Fair but also that of the nation.

Here is a link to the doorway of the Transportation Building that Sullivan designed. Since he did not like ornamentation, this could not have been pleasing to him. Still in the distance photo of the same building there are resemblences to the Auditorium from ELLA's link.

I found it very interesting that there was a "rule" that the cornices of each of the buildings of the Fair would be 60ft high to provide continuity. Arches, etc., could make the entire building taller. In the distance photo of the Transportation Building you can see how that worked out.

MARJORIE – that’s a lovely picture of the Transportation Building isn’t it! A lovely entrance – did you notice the angels on the sides of the building and the little ornamentations – and even the street lamp shown is – what can I say – I love it!!!! Those arches curving into the building, inviting you in……

And then the Lake in front of it!

Oh, I would love to have seen it all, but-----

last night I had a dream and fortunately I woke up because I was terribly worried and anxious – enough to start my poor heart pounding again. I was at this FAIR – it had to have been this Fair because there were all these new buildings and I had gone in several of them, marveling at all I saw, and all of a sudden I realized I didn’t have my pocketbook! I MUST HAVE LAID IT DOWN SOMEWHERE! And I had been in so many buildings I didn’t know where to start looking!!!

I was in a panic, because all my money to get home was in there (whether I was in the present or the past I have no idea), but I know I was alone and knew NO ONE! It was terrible!

Shall I stop this discussion right now??????????? HAHAHAAAAAAA

Do any of you like the modern buildings? I don’t at all. They are straight up and down and usually have NO ORNAMENTATION AT ALL and have glass walls or no windows at all. They are ugly.

I thought they were building this way to save money??????????

I don't know, I thought it’s too expensive to put ornamentation on buildings anymore, but maybe it is the style of today – SULLIVAN AND WRIGHT are still influencing our architects???

What do you think of modern buildings?

I'll be back later tonight.

Earlier someone mentioned that the photos looked posed because the men weren't dressed like construction workers but like business men who had picked up a shovel for the camera.

I found this early in the chapter titled Vexed in the second sentence of the second paragraph:

... Six steam-powered dredges the size of floating barns gnawed at the lakeshore, as five thousand men with shovels and wheelbarrows and horse-drawn graders slowly scraped the landscape raw, many of the men wearing bowlers and suitcoats as if they just happened to be passing by and on inpulse chose to pitch in.

The other thing that struck me about this sentence is the enormity of the task. This is in the context of Burnham inspecting the grounds every morning when he left his quarters in Jackson Park.

ELLA, you just described a classic dream. I've had the one where my purse is lost also. I don't know why, but it always gets to me...I think I must carry half of my life in my purse. It's certainly heavy enough, though I can't figure out all the things that seem to find their way into it.

I love the links you provided, MARJORIE. Those buildings really WOULD have been something to explore and walk through. How huge they were, the boats on the lagoons give some idea of the actual relative dimensions of the structures.

We have not talked of the death of John Root as yet. What an enormous creative loss that was. I thought Burnham's immediate reaction was surprising.

"I have worked," Burnham said, "I have schemed and dreamed to make us the greatest architects in the world--I have made him see it and kept him at it---and now he dies--- damn!--damn! --damn!"

Doesn't it seem that a little more personal regret might have been in order to eulogize this friendship of many years? Burnham seems to be revealed here as a man with more overwhelming ambition than sentimentality? He needed that ambition because now he had to shoulder both the organizational and creative elements in the Fair construction.

Whatever the grief he may have actually felt, Burnham gave the impression that his first thought was for the completion of the Chicago Fair? I wonder ...is this a fair assessment? Did anyone else see his reaction differently?

I LOVED THIS! Buffalo Bill Cody wanted the rights to run his Wild West show within the Fair. He was turned down and had to settle for a nearby parcel of land. I wonder why he was refused?

Despite the enormous difficulties imposed by Root's death, time restrictions, construction difficulties and money, the fair began to take definitive shape on the drafting board.

"The exposition promised to surpass the Paris exposition on every level--every level that is, except one. The fair still had nothing planned that would equal, let alone eclipse the Eiffel Tower."

Harriet

Does that mean those men worked dressed like that, Marjorie? I must find that place in the chapters we are discussing.

Meanwhile I think from time to time we should point how times have changed since the Fair. Perhaps you can think of a few things I cannot remember, but....

1) Holmes would not have been able to build his hotel in such a haphazard fashion;

2) Holmes would not have escaped creditors;

3) People would have been more suspicious of Holmes and perhaps he would have been stopped earlier? Don't know???

4) Construction workers would not be working in those clothes - hahaha

5) Policemen today are more comptent, they attend academies, have databases of criminals and, hopefully, today class is not a consideration in detective work and poor people merit as much attention as do the wealthy. That last is a question mark?

DO YOU AGREE WITH ALL OF THOSE ASSESSMENTS?

Problems arose early for Burnham - labor unrest, dire predictions for the economy at home and abroad, threats of fire and weather and disease, notably cholera and typhoid and last, but not least, his partner, Root died - a man whom he relied on for everything and whom he had great affection for.

Enough to make Burnhim ill and he was grief-stricken, but he soldiered on! Quite a guy!

I don't understand why in the book they call it the "Manufactures and Liberal Arts Building." What has one to do with the other, pray tell? Lovely building though - click here: Manufactures Building

On that site it is just called the Manufactures Building. Wouldn't you like to go back in time and see what exhibits were in there?

HERE IS ANOTHER QUESTION:

What should be the purpose of any Fair? A World's Fair?

later, eg

ELLA, looks like we posted simultaneously. Excellent questions. I'll think on them and return with some of my answers.

Harriet

Hi Harriet!!

We were posting together!!!

You didn't think Burnham expressed enough grief or regret over Root's death? But our author says he sat by his bedside daily neglecting his work - I think I read that! And this at a critical time in his life, when he, with his partner Root, were to climb a mountain and post a flag at the top!!! Big achievers!

Loved the story, also, about Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. Don't you think there was disagreement about the purpose of the Fair as I mentioned above? Some of the architects and builders did not want it to be a circus-type show, wanted the poetry and the magnificence of the buildings to be the center of it all.

HAHAHAHAAAAAA

PARTNERS!! WE ARE A GOOD PAIR!

Just put new questions in the heading; one of which I just asked!

ELLA: You raise an interesting question: "What is the purpose of any fair?" My first reaction was fund raising. I thought of PTA fairs when my children were in school. This Fair is being presented as being about status, reputation, and/or glory for the City of Chicago and the United States. There is also a commercial element to the Fair. I, too, would like to be able to see the exhibits that were in the magnificent buildings.

I will go back and ponder Burnham's behavior when Root was sick and died before I comment on that.

A PROMISE OF SPRING! Just-planted pansies in mulch from your local amateur landscape architect-Ella

OH HOW BEAUTIFUL, ELLA! Love your flowers! Thanks for the reminder that spring has sprung.

MARJORIE and ELLA, maybe I should be more forgiving of Burnham's unforunate quote. People say things in the heat of emotionality, and, in all grief, isn't there a feeling of being abandoned...no matter how illogical it may be to feel that way? Burnham's quote at Root's death resounds with anger and abandonment. He must have actually been devastated after eighteen years of friendship.

I think there's a difference between a small town country fair and a world class exposition. The small fair aims at showing off the skills of the locals to each other...best pie, best jam, etal., and does fundraising in a worthy cause of some sort. I suppose it would also generate some benefit to the town economy as surrounding area people visited for fun, games and excellent produce.

The world class exposition is more of a prestige thing? There is competition to host it. The honor of the host rides on arousing the admiration of viewers? In the case of the Chicago Fair, wasn't Chicago representing partly its own sophistication and burgeoning growth, but also the acknowledgement that the United States was a coming world power in the family of nations?

If a totally unexpected small nation won the honor of hosting the next Olympics today, they might feel some of the pressure that the United States and Chicago felt in 1893 at the thought of competing with France's notable fair of 1889?

I think that Chicago was also interested in the secondary advantages that would accrue to the host of the fair such as increased growth of economy and population.

It's all so complex when I think about it. On a personal level, the architects, Burnham in particular, wanted to build a monument of beauty...something that all would admire because of the extraordinary architecture. Maybe all the planners wanted to build something that would enduringly attest to their own skills and creativity.

DIDN'T THEY ALL DO A SPLENDID JOB? When I look at the marvelous pictures of the fair in our heading, I wonder if more recent fairs were as beautiful as this one was?

Harriet

HARRIET: I remember attending a fair in New York City when my children were young. I really don't remember the year or exactly how old they were. As I think about that fair, from being a participant on the ground, I get the impression of a lot of exhibits with very modern themes and a Disneyland atmosphere. I don't know that the buildings were as grand as those at "our" Fair. Still, we are looking at pictures taken from a distance and see the overall image. I wonder what people who were participants at that Fair thought of it.

I have a few minutes and I just wanted to let you know that yesterday I took that picture of my pansies after planting them - I'm not sure Olmsted would have thought much of the effort, would he? Hahahahaaaa

But each to his own!!

The Fair had many facets and it would be next to impossible to list all that it meant to everyone. Harriet has mentioned our national honor was at stake, Chicago's reputation - the architects certainly had a stake in it.

But certainly the exhibitors wanted their products known and appreciated. It meant future profit to them and we are forgetting that the FAIR itself was to make a profit! We'll see as we read through the book if it made a profit or a loss?

But the people who attended? What did they come for?

Olmsted thought it should be fun and lively for those that came. He wanted boats and quiet boats that made no noise whatsoever - as he said "diversion for the eye, peace for the ear."

That might appeal to the older folks - what about the young ones? What was there to entertain them?

As MARJORIE mentioned they would have liked to have had a "Disneyland" - I don't remember reading much about entertainment for children, do you?

Did you notice the mention of CLARENCE DARROW - the city's corporation lawyer? I have never forgotten reading a book about him by Irving Stone, who wrote in a fictionalized manner but all of Darrow's cases were there - a good book! And we all know of the famous "monkey trial". An interesting fellow.

In the chapter titled "Convocation" is the explanation of why the buildings could not be made permanent - time would not allow it! They all voted to clad their buildings in "staff" - a mixture of plaster and jute that could be spread over the wood frames to give illusion of stone.

Isn't it a shame that those gorgeous buildings couldn't have been permanent?

I'm very interested in your opinion of this question in the heading:

Does "flattery" work in motivating people, in your opinion?

But I want to think longer and then give you my thoughtful answers! Be back later!

You ask: "Does flattery work in motivating people?"

I am sure that it does. However, I am also sure that the source of the flattery affects how the recipient of the flattery responds. There is also the consideration of how believable the flattery is to the "flatteree." [if I may coin a word]

I would certainly be suspicious if someone I knew suddenly changed and started flattering me about something they criticized before.

Another thing to keep in mind is what is the definition of "flattery." Does "flattery" mean something that is necessarily insincere?

MARJORIE brought up some excellent points. Flattery can be a sincere sign of admiration that acknowledges another person's strong points. I would think that anyone would enjoy being praised for their legitimate best qualities, and that can be a motivating factor in performance. I believe that insincere flattery has only limited usefulness because sooner or later it reveals itself in some way. People might eventually feel betrayed and angry at the lack of truthfulness.

I wish I remember which chapter...Burnham praised his architects to the point of obsequiousness...was it when he attempted to convince them to accept the commission for the fair? Yet, wasn't there much to honestly praise in this group of eminent, creative architects? Wasn't all of this flattery a genuine tribute to how much Burnham needed THEIR creative visions to bring HIS conceptions to life?

However even the greatest artist can be lax in his timing. Burnham didn't hesitate to prod and poke at his architects when it became necessary to meet the timing schedule and complete their drawings.

I think all that flattery, harassment and all those "noble dreams" became justified on the day that the architects finally met with Burnham to reveal their drawings. The sculptor, St. Gaudens, also present that day, said to Burnham in wonderment, "Do you realize this has been the greatest meeting of artists since the fifteenth century?" The completed drawings presented a vision of buildings and park even more beautiful than the ones that had been imagined.

What ever happened to Olmstead's lagoons and landscaping after the fair? I wonder if that survived? Is it possible that Jackson Park was allowed to deteriorate back into barrenness? What a waste that would be! Oh, I hope not!

You know the more I read this book, the more attached I grow to the vision of this beautiful fair. I think we're so lucky to be able to read our book in conjunction with the wonderful, historical photos of the actual events.

Harriet

MARJORIE, maybe you attended the Flushing Meadow, Queens World's Fair of 1954 -1965? Ginny and Pat W. described it enthusiastically at the very beginning of our discussion. Did you and your children enjoy it?

People seemed to come away from that fair with a memory of the exhibits, but NOT with an overwhelming sense of beauty of design. Personally, I believe that if I had seen the actual Chicago Fair, I would never have forgotten the beauty of the locale.

Somewhere in the book, the author writes that people wept at the beauty around them upon first seeing the Chicago Fair. I still can't recover from the fact that all that beauty was demolished. Thank heavens for the photographs that preserved all that magnificence!

Harriet

MERCY YES, HARRIET! At least we get the benefit of those photographs, aren't they something?

As to "flattery" Marjorie answered that question very well. There are many ways and words to flatter a person and there are some people who react to it positively and others negatively and who is brilliant enough to be able to discern the difference?

Flattery can be insincere and here again, as Marjorie, stated it depends upon the source, doesn't it?

I mentioned earlier that we came across remnants in San Francisco years ago of a Worlds Fair and I just went to Google and it seems there have been two of them:

World's Fair

World's Fair

Enough of all that! We are discussing the best, in my opinion, of them all - the most beautiful certainly - the most magical!

In his "NOTE" at the beginning of the book, Erik Larson comments that the Fair possessed a "tranformative power nearly equal to that of the Civil War."

I've thought about that comment and I think he must mean the changes the Fair brought about, don't you?

The Civil War, as bloody as it was, did change our society in so many ways, and we don't need to go into them all, but the Fair introduced changes to our way of life. It introduced the age of industrialization and our book mentions a few of these "firsts."

General Electric, created when J.P.Morgan took over Edison's company and merged with several others, wanted to install "direct current" to light the fair, but Westinghouse, whose AC system was inherently cheaper and more efficient, won the rights of illumination and "helped change the history of electricity."

I know very little about that subject other than AC current can be sent much further distances at cheaper rates than the DC system.

Spray paint was another new idea at the Fair!

There are many more throughout the book which improved lives tremendously at the turn of the century.

ARe there others you can think of?

Are there other ways to translate Larson's statement in the heading?

Turning pages in the book I have to mention what foresight Burnham had in creating a large polilce force for the Fair which was given the mandate of "preventing crime." A novel idea at the time.

In thinking of what I just typed above, it strikes me that the Civil War had been fought just 30 years earlier and there were people alive, many of them I'm sure, who remembered it.

Possibly another change Larson had in mind with his comment could have been the site - Chicago - the West!

During the Civil War era we read little of the west - the Northern west that is, although the southern states, such as Texas, had fighting during that war, but here is Chicago, not as we think of it today (the Midwest) but it was a western metropolis. Interesting to ponder.

Bacteriology! Another first around this time. Science and the discovery of "contaminated drinking water" that caused so many deaths was in the forefront of the planning for the Fair. Had they but known earlier to just boil the water, many people's lives could have been saved, isn't that true?

ELLA: I think you are correct and the Fair we attended was the 1964-65 fair in Flushing, Queens. We lived in that area at that time and the kids were small then.

I was noticing, also, all the things that were introduced at "our" Fair and are an influence still today.

I haven't finished the second section of the reading yet. I did get to the part about having a Japanese exhibit on the Wooded Island. I remember when I was living in Chicago that there was a Japanese Tea House in Jackson Park and I wondered where it came from.

I also noticed that the first San Francisco fair that ELLA linked to happened shortly after the San Francisco earthquake and the Chicago Fair happened shortly after the Chicago fire. Growing up in Chicago the Chicago fire was a story but nothing else. To the people who attended the Fair and those working on it the fire was a very real threat.

I always thought that the parks along the lake were somehow connected. Am I wrong? When I look at the map of the shoreline during the Fair, its seems as if Grant Park and Jackson Park run together. The railroad lines are in there,too. You can still see them from the Outer Drive so I thought that they were the same ones that connected to the Fair. Am I wrong?

About Burnham's flattery, I do think that the man was ernest and sincere in his beliefs about the Fair transforming his city and America into a world power in architecture and invention.

I read the life of Tesla and was surprised to find him at the Fair. He and Edison completely disagreed on the transmission of electricity-DC and AC. We are lucky that Tesla's idea of alternating current won out as maintaining DC in todays world could be a problem.

New questions are in the heading; I will be back later for comments and hope to read a few by you, also.

I know we have touched on some of those questions, but there is much more to say.

My daughter called last night and she is meeting a friend in Chicago for 3 days. They have tickets to a play and are going to see an exhibit of Rembrandt's paintings on display there. Personally, I made a note that if I go to Chicago in the future, which I may doing in the Fall, I want to go to the Field Museum and the Science and Industry Museum, which is located in the Palace of Fine Arts - the one suriving building (??? I think) from the Fair.

Oh, and I also want to stay at the Hotel Burnham which Burnham built and which used to be called the Reliance Building. It was remodeled and named in his honor - at least there is one monument to him in Chicago; perhaps there are more we do not know of.

later....

ANN: Grant Park and Jackson Park do not touch. Jackson Park is bordered on the north by 59th street to the best of my recollection. Grant Park is downtown. The closest Grant Park would be is probably 20th street or its equivalent.

ELLA: The Museum of Science and Industry is at the north end of Jackson Park and the Field Museum is in Grant Park. It is also my understanding that the Museum of Science and Industry is the only building remaining from the Fair. Where is the Hotel Burnham?

Just lost a long post. I'll try again later. We're having thunderstorms here, the lights are flickering, and I am frustrated. Oh, oh, oh!

Harriet

It looks like storms here also - very dark and gloomy, rainy, cold! OH! Dreadful!

Where did I read that MARJORIE? I can't remember if I read in the book or online, but the Hotel Burnham was once the RELIANCE building in Chicago and was designed and built by Burnham. I'll look it up online and get back here with the info.

When we first moved to our small little village (in 1961 it had only 3500 people living in it and that population is considered a village) we had no parks, our town hall and Mayor's office was the small building on the main street.

WOW! YOU SHOULD SEE US NOW!!!

Yes, we have a Parks & Recreation Department and several parks and I'm glad to report that not all our soccer fields and baseball diamonds. We have a lovely park that has nothing but woods with a designated path through it, but (isn't this dreadful?) I'm afraid to walk through it alone? Even in daylight?

We have parks I have not been in!!! As our cities grow I think the people are much more attuned to setting aside open spaces and parks, don't you?

Europe is wonderful in that regard.

ANN: In my last post I indicated that Grant Park and Jackson Park are not connected. I am not sure if I answered you completely. The beach may touch regardless of what it is called, but not the main part of the parks. I know that some places the shoreline is sandy and people can wade in and other places it is rocky.

Still rain, but NOT thunder this morning. We've had rain for the last three days and our weather forecast projects more rain, more occasional thunder, at least till late tomorrow. April is really doing its thing!

I looked up a little about Clarence Darrow and I found a link that had some fascinating, new stuff. Anyway, it's new to me. It seems that Darrow's father was an undertaker, and as a child, Darrow had a profound fear of death. He was always determined that no client of his should suffer the death penalty, and, in this he was successful, even though he represented some fairly psychopathic defendants during his career. I think in the case of Leopold and Loeb, they killed just to see what it would feel like to snuff out a life. Ugh!

Clarence Darrow was a liberal in a strait laced time. He was retained by the ACLU to defend the young man who taught evolution in the Monkey Trial. Somehow I had always thought of Darrow as a turn of the 1900's person, but Darrow died in 1938. I had already been born by then, so he was plainly a part of the mainstream twentieth century, wasn't he? hahaha. I'm putting Irving Stone's biography about Clarence Darrow on my "to read" list, ELLA.

Interesting stuff below on Darrow, his life, and his major legal trials, including the Scopes Monkey Trial.

Clarence Darrow

MARJORIE, ELLA, COLKOT, ANN, anyone who has ever been near the Jackson Park area of Chicago...I think I asked this before and I'm really curious to know the answer. If anyone knows Chicago well enough...WHAT HAPPENED TO OLMSTEADS LANDSCAPING IN JACKSON PARK? Were all those lagoons demolished along with the World Fair? What about his beautiful environment that surrounded the buildings of the Fair? Was EVERYTHING a casualty?

ELLA, the Prendergast parts of the book seemed disjointed to me also. Having read ahead, I know it all eventually comes together, but I DID find it distracting and wondered who this Prendergast person was as I did my initial reading. I guess this particular stylistic treatment is the only part of the book that seems less than terrific to me. Does anyone else feel that way?

Harriet

HARRIET - here are a lot of photos of Jackson Park and it looks lovely to me! I only looked at three of the photos, one shows a Clarence Darrow Bridge; this is about all we may know about the Park until someone comes in and tells us who may know.

Jackson Park, Chicago

It still seems strange to me that Olmstead, with all his health problems and his age, would have taken on the job! He didn't need the money or any more feathers in his cap, but it isn't it grand that he did! I wish that I had a similar love in life - some work I couldn't put down - that even though I felt ill the challenge would beckon and I would have to do it.

HARRIET! Thanks so much for that link to Darrow, he's such an intriguing fellow and you must read about him. That book by Irving Stone is good, there are others and Darrow wrote his own autobiography which I read, not bad! He was a better lawyer than a writer!

I loved the speech he gave on his 61st birthday party - here are just a few quotes from it that I agree with:

"The difference between the child and the man lies chiefly in the unlimited confidence and buoyancy of youth. The life of the child is not the life of the man, and the town of the child is not the town of the man."

Now, of course, allowance should be made for the actions and habits of life of a man when he grows old. No doubt you will some time need to make allowance for mine, but if ever I begin moralizing, I trust I shall have some good, kind friend who will hit me on the head with an axe. It is all right to be as you are and feel as you feel when you are old, but it is silly to moralize. It gives you away. So I trust I shall die before I begin moralizing.

... it is a foolish habit of old people to patronize the young and to advise them what to do, whether the young are children or only a little younger. The fact is that age does not necessarily bring wisdom; it may here and there bring caution, but not always that."

Isn't he marvelous! Old age brings caution - I should say so! I can't think of many advantages of old age, but there may be some I haven't encountered yet - I can only hope! Hahahahaaa

DO WE HAVE ANYONE THAT IS JUST READING ALONG WITH US BUT NOT POSTING? PLEASE JOIN IN IF YOU ARE - WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOUR OPINIONS!

later, ella

ELLA: I looked at the link to the photos you just posted. It certainly looks like the lagoon by the Museum is still there. I never entered the building from that side and don't think I went out the "back" ever. I don't know from personal experience about that. On the other side of the Museum were exhibits from different states. The space where those exhibits were was a parking lot the last time I was there -- maybe 30 years ago.

I do know there was some water in the park. I don't remember how much. When I was 11 years old I was walking in the park with my cousin and a stream was frozen. We walked out on it and the ice broke and we both fell in. Maybe that was one of the lagoons. It would have been near the south side of the park. I don't remember what time of the year whether it was the beginning or end of winter. Luckily someone was walking by and helped us out of the water and got us home -- just a few blocks away.

I just spoke to my mother and she said that the lagoon behind the Museum is still there. She has lived in the suburbs since 1976 and probably not been back there. I just didn't remember that water. Mother is 94 years old and she remembered my falling in the water as I described above. She said that the water is from the lake. Sort of I am sure. Since the book (or one of the links) said that Jackson Park was a swamp, I am sure that the lake had an influence on it.

At any rate, at least some of the lagoons are still there. Perhaps all of them since I don't remember the park as being swampy at all. I haven't finished the book but didn't see anything that said how the swamp was drained and the lagoons formed yet.

Hi everyone! I'm behind in the reading, but I've read enough to know that I love this book. I think it is exceptionally well-written and it contains two of my favorite things--murder and Chicago.

I grew up from 3-15 in Chicago in an apartment on the Midway about five blocks from the U. of Chicago another 4 blocks or so west and also on the midway, at least a lot of the splendid gothic buildings are like the wonderful Gothic church (help me, Marjorie, I've lost the name). Jackson Park was about a block from our apartment, complete with lots of grass and trees and stone benches to sit on, windy paths too.

I used to walk to the Museum of Science and Industry (I was allowed to go that far alone, hard to believe now) and I remember the lagoon with great fondness. I think that museum may be the one remaining building from the Fair.

When I was a child there were small shops on Stony Island, painted orange pagoda-like things, that had been part of the Fair. They have since been torn down.

The length of the waterfront in Chicago has been preserved and it feels like Grant Park runs into Jackson Park, but it doesn't. However, there are spendid walks and bike paths and the Outer Drive for cars. Wonderful to ride down the Outer Drive at dusk. And Buckingham Fountain, also north, lit at night in the summer.

Chicago is the city for architects--there are some magnificent new buildings there, and the downtown has been lovely all my life.

Colkot--I think it was you who put Chicago on the same level as London. The two cities are so very different, but I have to agree with you. A third I would add to the list is San Francisco.

Anyhoo, I'll be back when I've read more about the architect and the sociopath and I agree that Holmes is definitely a sociopath. They are very dangerous people because they are often charming and they fool a lot of people until it is too late.

Maryal

MARYAL: I don't know the name of the Gothic Church. I do remember the buildings of the University of Chicago. I went to high school there and walked down the Midway from Stoney Island to my classes for 3 years. I remember the Midway as a long grassy space. I enjoyed the Museum but never lived close enough to walk to it.

WELCOME, MARYAL!

I get a kick out of a murder mystery also, Maryal, and I think the one in this book is done elegantly. When Erik Larson writes about Henry Holmes he creates a pattern of insinuation and leaves us to fill in the more graphic parts of the crimes in our own imagination. It's up to us to decide how deeply we care to think on it all, which is nice for those who DON'T enjoy the details.

Chicago is rapidly becoming a fascinating place to me, thanks to this discussion and our book. Last night the History Channel on TV aired a show about electricity and up popped the Chicago Fair of 1893. There was a too-brief photo of the fair, electrified at night. Whoever took that photo over a century ago was obviously more interested in the glow of the electric lights than in the buildings.

Isn't it funny how perceptions change? Nowadays it is electric lights that are prosaic. For me, the Chicago Fair itself would be the source of wonder in that old photo. I understand that Chicago was also the first American city to enjoy a functional power grid. Not bad for provincial Chicago at the turn of the twentieth century!

MARYAL, could this be your childhood painted orange pagoda-like things ? Wouldn't it be fun if it is? This fair may be gone, but I'm so glad that the lithographs and photographs linger on. If this does resurrect a few memories for you, there are two more B&W views of the Japanese Teahouses from different viewing angles in the Boston College architectural link of our heading. You have to scroll down the screen to the images of state and foreign buildings for them.

I'm also grateful to have seen the lovely current photos of Jackson Park. Thanks for that link, ELLA. The park seems truly lovely. Obviously some part of Olmsted's work survives.

I LOVE your Darrow quotes! He really was quite a guy, wasn't he?

MARJORIE, what a story! If the water was cold enough for part of the stream to be frozen, it must have felt like an ice bath! Was it deep? You must have been in shock from the experience. I'll just bet that your mother will ALWAYS remember the day that you fell in the lagoon!

Harriet

Harriett and Ella

I think that the stories about the mayor and his assasin added a behind the scene action that me realize that other things were always happening in that big city, in spite of the focus on the Fair. Life was going on and one. Remember how the mayor's death affected how the Fair was ended? In sadness over the loss of the mayor. This story with the assasin's life of desperation and his post cards addressed to the mayor that he loved gives a different flavor to the whole story of the Fair and Chicago. Not all was love and roses, in many areas of Chicago.

I really have always admired Olmstead for his landscaping 'au naturelle'. Something that could be left to stand forever and honors nature. A lot of landscaping today follows those same ideas. Look at Innis Park right here in Columbus which has lots of gorgeous trees and little touches of flower beds and waterfalls and stones and planked walkways. Its so peaceful to walk there. The same is true of Central Park and the Biltmore Estate.

I think the Vietnam Wall was designed by a young lady architect. And, it was a wonderful idea, IMHO.

Are those Japanese Tea Houses still in the park, Harriett?? Isn't that park lovely!!

Ella

What I didn't understand was the link to see the pictures in Jackson Park was then titled "Hyde Park". Does the park go by both names? Or, is it Hyde Park where the Center of Science and Industry resides? That's it, right?? :<)

Like Maryal, I love book and the stories therein. So, I just received an ordered copy which I will send on to my brother for his birthday in May. He used to live in Chicago (back in the 50's) and his main reading interest is non-fiction history. I know he will like it.

I have dim memories of those pagoda houses, somewhere in the park, no longer in water. But the shops I was attempting to describe had a sort of Oriental (Asian? what's the right term now) appearance but were on Stony Island Ave. which runs along Jackson Park.

Hyde Park is the geographical area--Which part of Chicago do you live in? Answer: Hyde Park. Jackson Park is a park that is inside the district known as Hyde Park.

Thanks for the photo of the wonderful pagodas.

A baseball nut! Am sitting here watching the Chicago Cubs decimate the Pittsburg Pirates. Its 9-to-1, bottom of the 4th. Go CUBBIES! This must be the year that they will go to the Series!! Right?

Maryal,

Thanks for placing Jackson Park in Hyde Park for me. I was just a bit confused there!

WELCOME MARYAL! We are happy to have you among us, what prompted you to read this book? Who recommended it?

I can't remember how I came upon it as I read it back in the Fall and my copy was circulated but returned. It's a good book with many elements - history, beauty, characters, murder!

As for Pendergast's appearance I thought it was a device of the author's to keep us guessing as to who he was and how he fit in the picture. Authors, it seems to me, often do this. Haven't you noticed that at the end of chapters in a mystery there is always a little clue to keep you reading on - guessing, turning pages.

Did anyone mention the architect of the Vietnam War Memorial who was just 21 years old, the same age of Sophia Hayden, who designed the Woman's Building at the Fair. Click here to read more Architect of Vietnam War Memorial

MARJORIE: Here is a clickable to the Hotel Burnham and the site tells the history of the building. Hotel Burnham

New questions coming for the heading - we are slow getting through the book, but I see no need to hurry, does anyone? I love our byways.

ELLA: Thank for the link to the Hotel Burnham. It is definitely centrally located if you choose to stay there.

HI, Ella~~ I think I picked up the paperback at Borders, realized that it was the book that was being discussed here on SeniorNet, sat down, read with coffee. Was immediately interested. As I wrote somewhere above, I love murder and I love Chicago.

I was most likely also encouraged to see that it was a prize runner-up. I often find the runners-up to be more interesting than the winner.

I'm looking forward to catching up on the reading this weekend.

Today was tax day, a sort of annual ritual around here--stuff the envelopes, check everything fifteen times, sign the forms, seal the envelopes, drive to one of three local post offices, turn them in.

That is all I need to know, Marjorie, I'm staying there when I next get to Chicago; have the matter of a little pacemaker to get used to first! OH, GOSH! It's to be inserted the last week of this month.

Maryal, I walked into the post office yesterday to buy a roll of stamps and the clerk made a comment about me being the only person there that wasn't mailing in their tax return. He was surprised when I told him we did it electronically (or had it done I should say!). I felt so modern!!!

New questions in the heading and I know we are behind schedule, but some of them are interesting!

I remember reading about Bertha Palmer and immediately associating her with the Palmer House a hotel in the loop where I went for my honeymoon. I tried to find the passage and was unable to do so quickly.

It seems that I remember she was from a prominent family and probably a wealthy one. She was used to having her way with things and gave the architect for the Women's Building a hard time by taking over "ornamentation."

There was an early question about Holmes and why the author included him in the book. I never took the time to answer then. As I read more I think that Holmes' story breaks what could have been a dry accounting of the building of the Fair. Still the way Eric Larsen has written about the Fair, I doubt it would have been dry even without Holmes' story.

I don't read much nonfiction and am enjoying this book. How much of that is because it is about Chicago and the area I used to live in I don't know.

Hi Marjorie! Here's a clickable to the Palmers: The Palmers of Chicago

There are many; I'm not so sure you wanted to look at their graves but their history is there. I wonder if their magnificent home is still standing and if any of the descendants of the Palmers are living.

Do any of like to wander in graveyards? Ginny and I went to a very old historic one in England (we got lost, never thought we would make it but got a ride from a nice young man who took us right to the door) and we had a guided tour. It was situated on a hill and those buried high on the hill paid the most for their site - hahahaaaa As if it all matters when you're dead.

When our group of bookies went to Chicago I read the "CITY OF THE CENTURY" book and remember the prominence of the Palmers. Bertha was a grand dame! I can't remember her origins, whether she came from monied folks or not, but she certainly displayed her wealth at this time.

Yes Ella, I've walked through old graveyards. There's one in Princeton, NJ that dates back to the 1600's or 1700's. The oldest section has the graves of many young women and infants...evidence of a time when childbirth and infant mortality were deadly forces to be reckoned with. I love old towns also. There must have been plenty of that in England.

Hi, Ann! Hope you enjoyed your game. I don't know if those pagodas are still there. If they were Maryal's pagodas, then she said they were torn down. Olmstead's original plans included nothing but the beauty of nature on the wooded island of Jackson Park, but his landscape design had made the island too appealing. The government of Japan succeeded in getting permission to build a display of serene temples, teahouses and pagodas there, despite Olmstead's hopes to make that island a tribute to natural beauty only.

I'm sure that I would NOT have the temperament to sustain the pressures of supervising the building, the labor problems, the logistics, the difficulties, the deadlines that went with putting that fair together. What an enormous project. The stakes were so huge for Burnham and Olmstead. Their prestige and reputation rode on their capabilities.

Perhaps Olmstead partly succumbed to these pressures. He wrote to a friend while in Europe to improve his health that:

"Every day I look for improvement in my health and thus far everyday, I am disappointed. Dr Rayner (a specialist who treated nervous disorders) says, after repeated examinations...that I have no organic trouble."

Yet Olmstead continued to be tormented with insomnia, gastric difficulties, aching teeth and an assortment of ills. Poor guy! It's hard to tell where the normal difficulties that go with age end and nervous tension begins? I do sympathize with him...someone always wanted to tinker with his masterpieces and plant a few outlaw trees and shrubs to disturb the harmony of his conceptions.

I don't know about Olmstead's nerves, but MINE get jumpy on tax day. You know Maryal, I felt a kinship when you talked about checking your income tax so many times. We always check a zillion times also. It's as if I think my signature can miraculously disappear from the bottom of our return if I don't look at it a few more times before sealing the envelope. hahaha.

Isn't it amazing that a dedication was planned a full year before the fair was due to open? What pressure on everyone! Despite all the problems, Burnham continued to be one of the most liberal of employers, offering unusual benefits for the times in which he lived.

However, the laborers began to suffer from a new malady, unheard before the fair. There were some fatalities due to electric shock. The employees of the Chicago Fair were learning the hard way how to deal with electricity.

Marjorie, I loved your comment about the contrast between the story of the fair and the nefarious Mr. Holmes. I enjoy both story lines of the book also. Don't you feel that the alternating chapters add to the pleasures of the book?

Harriet

Ella, I meant to answer your question about the special happening that came down to us from the Dedication Day of the Chicago Fair, but somehow I rambled on and on in my prior post and never got to it.

Wasn't our Pledge of Allegiance written by Francis J Bellamy to commemorate Dedication Day at the fair? To this day, school children all over the United States open their learning day with the words, "I pledge allegiance to...."

Nowadays a lot of elementary school principals use the public address system to encourage the pledge on a daily basis...a different child recites it over the loudspeakers each morning, and all other children join in their own classrooms.

Back in 1892, microphones had not yet been invented. Public speakers who wanted to be heard needed hearty vocal cords, and their audiences needed excellent hearing.

Harriet

Weren't you surprised, Harriet, to read about the Pledge of Allegiance? I had never thought about where it originated and now I can't remember when they put the phrase "under God" in the pledge that from time to time gets national media attention. Anyone?

Your mention of a public address system brought to mind a book I'm reading - a biography - but when FDR spoke at his first inauguration they put speakers on the all the lamp posts so people could hear his voice and it echoed down the street so that they heard him say "We have to fear but fear itself" over and over again. Funny.

At the dedication ceremony in the Manufactures and Liberal Arts building (a 32-acre floor, imagine that!) they had to use hand signals to tell the choir when a speech was over so they could sing. Must have been very impressive!

DO YOU THINK MODERN YOUNG WOMEN WOULD BE AS NAIVE AS THOSE THAT WERE SEDUCED BY HOLMES?

I first heard of "normal schools" years ago when my sister moved to Maine after WWII to marry her young soldier and she told me of her children's teacher having gone to the normal school for her education. I had never heard of them and I think they were just for women as teaching was considered a woman's career choice at the turn of the century.

The normal school was mentioned in the chapter "Acquiring Minnie."

Have you ever heard of them?

Here's a brief bio of Bertha and Potter Palmer. The Palmers

And another one: Potter and Bertha Palmer

And here's a little history about The Normal School.

Old Chicago vis Post Cards

You can stay in here for quite awhile, like an hour, looking at old Chicago and all its environs. Enjoy!

OK, this weekend I do some catch-up reading, but in the meantime--

"Under God" got added to the Pledge somewhere around 1956--I know that I was in high school and kept stumbling (as did my friends) trying to get the rhythm straight.

First I ever heard of "normal schools" was when we moved to Maine! At the time the culture in Maine was worlds apart from that of Chicago. It took a while to adjust.

The State of Illinois had 6 or more: Western IL (Macomb), Northern IL (Rockford), Southern IL (Carbondale, Eastern IL (Paris), IL Normal (Normal) and Chicago probably had a couple.

A would-be teacher could go 6 weeks to Normal school, and she would be eligible to teach country school. My husband's aunt did this and she taught 20 years at the same little school, half a mile down the road from her parent's farm. She usually had 10 to 15 children in 8 grades. When they closed the school, the laws changed and a teacher in the town schools had to have 2 years of Normal Training. She was 38 then and felt she was too old to go back to college. But she was a born teacher, and tutored my children at an early age.

The original 5 downstate Normal schools became state universities offering, bachelors, masters, and doctors degrees.

One of the Normal schools in Chicago was in Evanston, and in the early '20s became the National College of Education. If you graduated from there you were guaranteed a job in the Chicago School system.

Here's a little bit about the pledge, its author and when it was changed. What strikes me is that he almost used the word 'equality' instead of 'justice' and then thought better of it since he knew that the public would equate that word, equality, with women and African Americans. The Pledge to our flag

Ahhh, Maryal, shaving a few years off our age??? Its 1954 that the words, 'under God', were added.

I am a bit ahead, I think, but the part about the official photographer and no other were interesting. Burnham wanted only authorized photography. But, he did allow a second man to sell Kodak cameras, named Columbus, in honor of the Fair. And, we now could take "snap-shots". Wonder what the size of that new fangled camera was? Were they hard to drag around during one's attendance at the Fair??? Hmmm, I'll have to 'google' that!!

Ann, thanks--Not intentionally shaving--I was guessing. You'll have to admit I was pretty close. I do remember the confusion having to learn to put those two words "under God" into the pledge without causing a hiccough in the recitation! Lessee--I was in 9th grade when the words were added--so it is Maine that I'm remembering. OK, this time I'm going to memorize the date--1954.

Back to reading. I'm up to a Holmes chapter again.

Are women less vulnerable these days (question up in the heading). I don't know how to answer this one. In some ways and some women, yes. A lot depends on how much independence a young woman develops and how many interests of her own she is actively pursuing. I do think that sociopaths are a different kind of lure, temptation, whatever because they are very charming.

Holmes has those lovely blue eyes that imply sympathy that it seems he can use pretty much any time he wants something--or someone.

OH, THANK YOU, ANN, FOR THOSE CLICKABLES – I WENT THROUGH THE WHOLE TOUR of the paintings and the ROOKERY building – magifico!!!

Bertha was beautiful wasn’t she? Loved that painting of her, but I can’t understand that castle. It looks more like apartments you see in NYC – somewhat like the Dakotas but more ornate – it has several entrances and right on the street. Does it look like a castle to you?

The Monet paintings are gorgeous, love those colors he used. My favorite was THE SACRED GROVE – the one of the interrupted reader did nothing for me. At first glance I thought the lady was showing off her muscles! Hahahaaaa Monet liked stocky women didn’t he, but what lovely colors!

And what a building the Rookery was inside; as the rest of you said it doesn’t look impressive from the outside but did you go all the way to the end of that tour and see those photos of the inside of it? Imagine painting that ceiling over, what kind of a person would want to do that?

Thanks, MARYAL, for answering the question about the Pledge of Allegiance and you lived in Maine for awhile??? I visited my sister several times in those years and, I, too thought Maine was still in the 19th century, couldn’t get over how backward their cities were but, on the other hand, charming!!!!

Oops, I see, Ann just corrected the date for us.

I'll weigh in with my opinion of young women today, even though I agree with MARYAL that sociopaths can be charming and misleading; however, with all that young women see on television and the accounts in the media of murder certainly they are more aware of men who attempt to strike up an acquaintainceship too quickly. Parents are or should be warning these same women of the pitfalls of independence.

HI PAT! Interesting information about normal schools and what they have evolved into. I'm going to look up that Boston Academy of Elocution - some kind of finishing school or speech and drama possibly?

later, eg

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?

I went to Google and typed in Boston Academy of Elocution and look what just came up here: Google

And here is what I read at that site:

"SeniorNet RoundTable Discussions - ---Devil in the White City ... ... Do you know what Normal Schools were? Or the Boston Academy of Elocution? Were they just for women? The author has relied heavily ... discussions.seniornet.org/ cgi-bin/WebX?230@@.77392355 - 66k - Apr 15, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

I was astonished to say the least! I knew Google was good but didn't know they were reaching out to our discussion here! Good heavens! I feel a bit like we are on television! hahahaaaa

I did finally see the Rookery and what a gorgeous interior!! Wrights redecorating bespeaks of his Johnson Wax Building in Racine, WI. The colors are very similar and the openness of it all. I went to an exhibit all about the planning, building, and problems connected with the Racine building in the art museum on the Cornell campus in Ithaca, NY.

Ahhh, there we are on 'google'! Nice!!

As to whether girls are still as easily fooled today as they were then. Its not too easy to compare the two different centuries but I think that today's girls should be more aware of the uglyness of the world due to the media.

to outdo the Eiffel Tower and when I read the specs that the Pittsburg engineer sent to Burnham, I just knew it was the Ferris wheel. But, before reading that it was proposed for the Chicago Fair, I was always under the impression that it first went on display at the St Louis World's Fair in the 1800's. So, my years were a bit off, I am not perfect, ya' know! Kidding!!

ANN, I, loved, loved your clickable. That link was just wonderful. It had so many of the names and places from our book, and many wonderful images that were not. I was fascinated by the replica of the dress George Washington's mother wore on her wedding day. What a petite girl she must have been, but she had such a tall son.

DO YOU THINK MODERN YOUNG WOMEN WOULD BE AS NAIVE AS THOSE THAT WERE SEDUCED BY HOLMES?

I do, ELLA, I do! I think all of us start from a certain supposition when we deal with other human beings. We believe that we all share certain commonalties such as the ability to feel genuine affection, and a respect for the sanctity of life.

A modern woman might expect that a man could be insensitive or selfish, but no one, absolutely no one, either now or in 1893, really thinks that someone we love will brutally murder another person. That gives a psychopath an enormous advantage in any age. His repertoire of behavior is so far outside of what the rest of us could imagine, that there is no protection, because a normal person just couldn't anticipate such bizarre behavior.

A modern girl might start out with an advantage in dealing with an average, not-so-ethical lout that our turn of the century innocents would not have had. As others pointed out, the public media shows more of the unpleasantness of life, so our modern girl would have less stars in her eyes. Most girls nowadays understand that they must be guarded with a man they have recently met, and all men are NOT honorable gentlemen, but if love enters the door, good sense too often flies right out. I felt a great deal of sympathy for Holmes's victims.

How exciting to find ourselves on Google. I think someone else commented in a previous discussion that this had happened before...don't remember which discussion. And why not? Personally, I find a lot to read that's thought provoking and interesting on our boards.

Harriet

Afraid I have to agree with Harriet about today's young women. None of us really believes that we are going to be personally acquainted with someone like Holmes, much less that we would marry him. The human belief that "bad things, really bad ones, don't happen to me" is strong. And the young are more convinced than others. The young people I teach know that one day they will die, but they don't really believe it.

Indeed, they are aware of the horrible things that happen, but they don't think those things will happen to them.

I'm most impressed with the writing in this book. In a short section on 73 (pb) we are told of a woman named Strowers who occasionally did Holmes's laundry. He offers to pay her $6000 if she will get a $10,000 life insurance policy and name him as beneficiary:

She was healthy and expected to live a good long while. She was on the verge of accepting the offer when Holmes said to her, softly, "Don't be afraid of me."

Which terrified her.

That is perfectly done. The fragment "Which terrified her" is placed in a single-sentence paragraph. Perfectly chilling. The emphasis on her terror is accentuated.

Back to book

Wonderful excerpt, Maryal. I particularly noticed that line in the book also, but it took you to bring it into focus.

Yes, perfectly chilling, and thank you for posting it.

Harriet

The last question in the heading asks if some of the things in the book are fictionalized. Yes, I think many of the things are fiction.

In spite of newspaper articles, it seems to me there are too many details -- things like: how Burnham felt watching the construction in the Park; the ways that Holmes drew his victims to him; the conversation of the Eastern architects when they were deciding whether or not to participate; etc.

I am not looking at the book right now but could look things up if necessary.

I think you're making a very solid point about the possible fictionalization of some scenes in the book, MARJORIE.

Immediately after the last page of the book, Larson gives us a section called Notes and Sources. Much of it is the dry acknowledgement of his sources, but I thought some of it was really more fascinating than mere credits. Larson gives his reasoning for constructing some scenes in the book in the way that he does.

For instance, in the chapter Cuckoldry, Holmes is portrayed as going down to the basement of his new building in the small hours of the night. There, alone and unobserved, he lights the flames of his installed kiln and presumably indulges whatever fantasies he may have had about the possible uses of that hot oven.

Fictionalization? Where did this information come from?

Larson has this to say in the notes for that chapter.

"This is speculation, but I base it on the following: In Mooers, Henry Holmes was known to pace at midnight, suggesting he was not a restful sleeper. Psychopaths need stimulation. The kiln would have been an irresistible attraction. Admiring it and igniting its flames would have reinforced his sense of power and control over the occupants above."

So you're right, MARJORIE. Our author slides seamlessly between history and personal speculation. Is he right in his interpretations? Heaven only knows, but I thought he certainly tried to differentiate between real history and his "WISHtory" of events, didn't he?

I thought you brought up such a good point.

Stylistically, I feel the book makes a good read in this format. How do the rest of you feel? Do you feel that this is sufficient justification for departing from straight facts?

more...

Thought you might like to know that I was listening to WGN late night radio, Steve & Johnnie.. who mentioned that the Devil in the White City might become a movie. In today's Chicago Sunday Trib books section is an interview with the author confirming that it is in the works... Of course that's at least 2 years down the pike if it does happen. Am back in Chicago where it is unseasonably warm.. Colkot

Hi COLKOT. Glad to see you again. I'd love to see that future movie, although it seems to me that it would be harder than most to bring to the screen. There's such a profusion of people, places and events.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to see the beautiful Chicago Fair of 1893 brought to life though? I wonder if the movie might try to reconstruct a lot of the original fair? There are certainly plenty of photographic images available for guidance. I would love seeing that...imagine an opportunity to see the grandeur of the Fair reborn on the big screen? Would that intrigue YOU?

There will be some new questions appearing in the heading later today. Meanwhile here's a preview of one of them.

IN THE CHAPTER Dreadful Things Done By Girls WE SEE A MULTIFACETED PICTURE OF CHICAGO IN 1893. THE VIGNETTES EXPLORE THE PROGRESS OF THE FAIR, THE ATTITUDES OF THE LEADING CITIZENS, THE POLITICS.

WHICH OF THE MANY STORY LINES INTERESTED YOU THE MOST?

WHY DO YOU THINK THE AUTHOR HAS BEGUN TO ENTWINE MANY STORY LINES THAT ONCE WERE CONTAINED STRICTLY IN SEPARATE CHAPTERS?

I loved the way Erik Larson used a scene from the belly dancers of the fair's Algerian Village to segue into the Prendergast story line in this chapter.

On the Chicago Fair's Midway, the entrepeneur, Sol Bloom, had a big-profit exhibit in his early-opening Algerian Village, complete with belly dancers. Bloom composed a simple melody for the girls to dance to...a melody that all of us would recognize immediately if we heard it, because it is used in almost all the Mideast low-budget movies that we've ever seen. If you've ever seen a cobra in the movies raising its head, and slithering upward out of a basket in response to a piper's music, you've heard that melody.

When the insane Prendergast writes one of his notes to a Mr. Trude, the opening bars of that melody appear on the page of our book. It is as if we suddenly must visualize Prendergast as a cobra, slithering forward, prepared to strike...a wonderfully effective image, I thought...better than any verbal description of the madman's dangerous propensities.

I know you'll recognize the notes of that melody if you have a way to play those few bars of music.

What part of that chapter struck YOUR fancy?

Harriet

I didn't realise that the normal schools evolved into colleges.. and that what was National College of Education now National-Louis University was one of them...NCE was offering scholarships for students who wished to become teachers in the 70's...no upper age requirement..in other words a returning student..could go there for a degree...I received my BA in 1981..but NOT in teaching as there were not enough students...in Human Services (Social Work)..almost the oldest graduate.. but not quite. Mrs Potter Palmer was responsible for a lot of the Art Institute paintings, especially impressionists.

HARRIET: In the chapter "Dreadful Things Done By Girls," I was struck by the enormity of this Fair -- the large number of people and equipment and the confusion that must have resulted. Jackson Park, to me, is limited in size since what I remember is from when I was a young girl. I can't imagine all those people, trains, etc., together in the Park. Either the park is a lot larger than I remember or everyone was stepping over everyone else. The buildings were tall but people (other than construction workers) and trains were all on ground level. It isn't as if that many people were in 4 skyscrapers on different floors.

Just a quick note as I've been working out in the yeard - WHEW! AS COLKOT SAID - it is unnecessary, unrealistically hot for mid-April! I wanted to do more but had to quit, just too hot.

I must review that chapter, HARRIET, before I can answer that very excellent question, but did want to ask MARYAL about the sentence:

WHICH TERRIFIED HER

That's not a complete sentence, there's no subject and I'm not sure how such sentences get by an editor.

It has a wonderful effect on the reader, it makes you pause a bit and think. Was it the words or the softness of Holmes' tone that was the cause of the terror or the request. Wonderful, but.......

That's a strange title for a chapter isn't it? "Dreadful Things Done by Girls." Intriguing. One wants to investigate right away and I will later........eg

Ella--Sharp eyes, you have. No, the sentence lacks an independent clause; it is a fragmentary sentence, a dependent clause as a matter of fact. But it's used as a complete sentence and emphasized by being put in a paragraph all by itself.

Many, dare I say most, contemporary writers use fragments judiciously. The fragment allows you to get more punch into a point; it prevents needless repetition of subjects and verbs. More bang for the buck. (Notice that the preceeding sentence is a fragment.)

Notice how much stronger Which terrified her is than one of the alternatives, say, What he said terrified her would have been. The first has real shock value whereas the second, which is a complete sentence, lacks some of the punch. Make sense?

I allow my students to use fragments (occasionally, and only when they know what they are doing) but they have to put a small asterisk in the margin to indicate to me that they know they are employing a fragment.

P.S. I'm all the way up to 155 and will try to get to "Dreadful things done by girls" by this evening. If only I didn't have a stack of papers to grade. . .sigh.

Fragments - thanks, MARYAL, I've never heard of that phrase in using English, and, as you say, much more effective!

I had forgotten where the title of this chapter "DREADFUL THINGS" came from and Bertha Palmer and the society ladies would not have approved of it at all. Neither would Ward McAllister, factotum and chief slipperlick (ever heard that word before?) to Mrs. Astor, empress of New York Society.

His advice to Chicago to hire French chefs reminded me of Jackie Kennedy who employed a French chef in the White House and we all heard about that, didn't we?

I doubt any First Lady will do that again; particularly with the way France is acting toward us today.

Would they have allowed the "madams" of New York to spruce up their operations? Could they have prevented it? No, of course not. And the dreadful girls would have just continued on and on, as they do today.

I don't think I would have bought Adelaide's cookbook, would you?

Certainly one of the best things to come out of the Fair was the city's attempt to clean up its streets and alleys, partly due to Jacob Riis. I had never heard of him before, but, of course I had heard of Jane Addams and Hull House.

HARRIET, that was very perceptive of you to notice the way the author segued from one short story into another!

I'M SO SORRY BUT I DON'T RECOGNIZE THE TUNE! I EVEN PLAYED ON MY KEYBOARD - what is it? Was it used for anything other than an accompaniment to a snake swaying?

The author, I believe, is bringing the Fair closer and closer to the reader with all the emerging exhibits arriving by rail and by ship and it certainly presents the chaos that Burnham faced - what a guy to pull it all off!

Favorite lines in the story? I liked the mayor Harrison or at least the way he was portrayed in this sentence: "....whose four terms as mayor had gone a long way to establish Chicago as a place that tolerated human frailty even as it nurtured grand ambition."

Try humming the tune to the words:

Oh they don't wear pants
in the southern part of France

'Member that?? Its called 'hoochie coochie' music!

Well, ANN! Where have I been all my life, I have never heard that tune????

It's very dark outside, a storm's coming and I won't be on anymore today.

later, eg

Stay cozy and dry, ELLA.

Yes, ANN, thanks! That's the exact tune, although the southern part of France ditty does get in the way of the striking cobra symbolism, doesn't it? hahaha. Yet, it seems to me that the image of the dangerous cobra must have been the author's intent?

Any other opinions on that intention of the author?

I agree with ELLA about the pace of the book. As she pointed out, I thought that the author is bringing the fair closer and closer to the reader. I also thought that, at the same time, the people in our book who intertwine with the fair or with each other in some positive or negative way, are coming closer toward some sort of mutual culmination. Their stories are no longer as independent of each other as earlier.

Holmes is ready to open his hotel to serve fair visitors. Many will register at his hotel, but some people will NOT check out.

Prendergast is expecting his reward from Harrison, the "Chicago Fair mayor."

Burnham and Olmstead are supervising thousands of employees in the last minute arrangements for the opening of the fair. The President of the United States and other world dignitaries are preparing to arrive and officiate at the ceremony.

WHAT WERE BURNHAM AND OLMSTEAD'S MAJOR WORRIES IN THESE FINAL DAYS BEFORE THE FAIR OPENED?

Harriet

I had to call Ella up and sing the tune for her before she recognized it. Said it didn't sound like that on her piano. Its the rythym of it, right???

ANN: I hadn't thought of the rhythm being so important to that melody. But it certainly is. I can't imagine what those notes sound like without the rhythm since I don't have a musical instrument to try them on.

HARRIET: I think the biggest problem for Burnham and Olmstead just before the opening of the Fair was the big rainstorm that didn't let up. The book mentions men painting in the rain and rain filling the paths and ruts left from wagons, etc. The winter itself was mild, but this rainstorm really created problems.

ELLA and ANN, the wrong rhythm could give the melody a completely different sound. Also I had to remember to play F# on the piano rather than the plain note of F. All in all, a simple little melody with a few complexities, no?

MARJORIE, it rained as if Noah was building his ark. In addition, throw in labor problems with unions, distrust between Olmstead and his main assistant and important exhibits that were still incomplete...it's a wonder that Burnham didn't take leave of his senses. Even the Ferris wheel was still under construction and totally untested. For all anyone knew, it might not have worked as anticipated.

I get the feeling that Burnham was a generous employer with benefits, but not with money. I bet he wished he could have had a little more time to deal with his problems before Opening Day.

Harriet

Yes, the rains, the rains! And the mud. It must have been pretty warm then,too. Can you imagine working in the heat and humidity plus the rains? Just reading about all the glitches of what was not ready to open, the grounds were full of ruts and mud--do you think the workers were complaining and asking for more money to work overtime?? And then there was Eugene Debs already demanding things for the union workers about that time. I must go see when he started his agitations.

Here's a little bit about what Debs was arranging in 1893.

So, in 1893, in Chicago, Debs founded the American Railway Union (ARU). Due largely to Debs’ established reputation and widespread recognition among workers, to say nothing of his tireless efforts and boundless enthusiasm, the ARU achieved phenomenal organizing success and membership expanded rapidly at a time when other labor unions were struggling just to stay alive. In 1893, the ARU called a strike against the Great Northern Railroad, which was an extremely important railroad carrying freight and passengers west from Milwaukee to the Pacific Northwest. The strike was settled after 18 days and a contract signed which met virtually all union demands.

Perhaps, this rail strike also affected the number of attendees at the Fair, early in its beginning days. Because I am sure that many folks came by the Great Northern system from the northwest to see the Fair.

Burnham was farsighted I thought. He paid a minimum wage and and time and a half for overtime and double time for Sundays and key holidays. Had that ever been done before? I remember the sweatshops of the turn of the century where seamstresses and others worked 12-16 hours six days a week.

This was a breakthrough for organized labor at the time and became a model for other unions in the future

But the statistics are staggering to imagine. Before Opening Day, almost 20,000 men at work on the ground and as I remember there were a 1000 or more women scrubbing and waxing the floors of the buildings. It would have been a formidable task just to get the personnel and payroll departments up and running.

The Opening Day Ceremony would have been wonderful to behold - the big parade. all those carriages lined up, 200,00 people on horseback or walking, the Columbian Guards in uniforms with white gloves and yellow-lined black capes directing traffic. What a sight. Certainly there must been many pictures of it taken because there were "Kodak fiends" everywhere.

I'll look to see if I can find any pictures of it.

AND THE SUN CAME OUT!! MIRACLES - the chocolate VEnus de Milo did not melt, the 22,000 lb cheese did not mold and President Cleveland gave a short speech and touched a gold key which opened everything, everywhere - engines started, flags unfurled, fountains sprayed and the chrowd sang what they thought was the NATIONAL ANTHEM - MY COUNTRY, TIS OF THEE!!!

Well, now another first.

We must discover when the Star Spangled Banner became the National Anthem and why???? It is so hard to sing compared to MY COUNTRY, TIS OF THEE!

later, eg

OPENING DAY OF THE FAIR INDEED HAD MIRACLE AFTER MIRACLE!

Another of the great miracles was the marvelous transformation of the fairgrounds the night before the fair officially opened to the public. The day before, rain-drenched construction litter and garbage had covered a good part of the public areas. Empty boxcars and packing debris were everywhere.

Ten thousand men working through the night had touched up the paint and staff and planted pansies and laid sod...As the morning advanced, the sun emerged more fully. In the bright rain-scrubbed air those portions not still submerged looked cheerful, trim and neat. "When the fair opened," said Paul Starrett, one of Burnham's men, "Olmstead's lawns were the first amazement."

WHAT A TRIUMPH FOR OLMSTEAD! In the days prior to the opening he had difficulties with his assistant, Ulrich, who, while Olmstead recuperated his health in Europe, had grown faithlessly ambitious for himself and less careful for the glory of his boss. Although it was that same assistant who had dealt with all the day-to-day problems, and made himself necessary to Burnham while Olmstead was in Europe, the overall vision of the Chicago Fair landscaping still belonged to Olmstead, and he did not plan to share his glory.

What a remarkable sight it all must have been as the fair opened! Here are some images. ISN'T IT WONDERFUL?

Opening Day at the Fair

People arriving at the train station of the Fair

Harriet

Hi Harriet! Wonderful images! I could only go to #3 - I think it was - on the People Arriving clickable and then the pages wouldn't come up for me.

But what fun to see how dressed up they are! Those lovely long fancy dresses and hats the women wore in those days, lovely to look at.

In the Chapter "OPENING DAY" Frank Millet comes on the scene with the title of DIRECTOR OF FUNCTIONS and it seems he did a great job setting aside special days. What would be the person that does that today in cities? Possibly the Chamber of Commerce?

My computer is not working very good for some reason. When I clicked on Google I am getting nothing so I cannot look up the history of the Star Spangled Banner - later....

You can see what a great job was done by Burnham and others when you read this paragraph:

"....the exposition revealed to its early visitors a vision of what a city could be and ought to be. The Black City to the north lay steeped in smoke and garbage, but here in the White City of the fair visitors found clean public bathrooms, pure water, an ambulance service, electric streetlights and a sewage-processing system that yielded acres of manure for farmers".....daycare for children (with parents receiving claim checks for their child, hahahaha)

What a revelation it must have been to those from the "black city."

Can you imagine coordinating that Opening Day WITHOUT computers? As ELLA said, what a task to handle even the personnel involved. Amazing!

HARRIET: Thanks for the links. I was able to see all 7 of the pictures. Very interesting.

Yes, the links led to some wonderful pictures but the one that I appreciated the most was at the train stations where it looked like hundreds of people were on their way to the Fair.

I also got all 7 wonderful pictures. Thanks for showing us.

although many things were hampering the beginning of the Fair Burnham remained calm through it all. I can't imagine being so calm in the face of the rain, the exhibits that weren't ready to open yet, the grounds flooded with rain and mud. But the author seems to think that Burnham held his little meetings around the campfire every evening, discussing the solutions to all problems with his managers, many times into the dark of night. And, he pined for his wife, looking at her picture that he kept up in his room at the grounds. Maybe some fiction here??

Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show was taking in money and impressing the crowds before the Fair was officially open but the Ferris Wheel still remained in a dissaray with many intricate pieces remaining to be installed while the cars to carry the people were sitting on the ground. I don't think that Burnham was very worried about these things as to him the main part of the Fair was the White City of wonderful architecture. That was the part that he wanted to be perfect and to astound the Fair goers.

Since I have been ill for four days since my return from the Outer Banks NC I have spent little time on my computer...but in between coughing etc I have read the book. I wont make any comment until I raad the posts. I will say it was a most interesting read, not one I would tell others to read regarding Holmes ..but loved the whole thing about the fair itself ,..the why's, who's and wherefore's ....anna

Hi, GINGER! Thanks for looking in on us. Glad you enjoyed the old photos.

Yes ANN, good point about Debs. Many of the strike negotiations in 1893, both inside and outside of the Chicago Fair, contributed toward the rise of the labor movement and unionism, and set a standard for future labor negotiations. Thank you for bringing it up.

MARJORIE, I've reached a point where I can't even imagine getting through one day of my life without my computer. The logistics of organizing and keeping track of all of the details of that fair in an era of hand-written records are unimaginable to me. YET SPEED WAS AN ALL-IMPORTANT FACTOR IN COMPLETING THE UNFINISHED PARTS OF THE FAIR.

How could anyone keep a close enough watch on every detail? So many thousands of laborers, so many buildings and exhibits were straining to achieve completion at the same time. Some contractors either cut a few corners, knowing that their lapses would never be noticed, or made some construction errors in the general need for speedy work. A terrible penalty would be paid for the lack of effective inspection codes when the fair suffered a fire in the Cold Storage Tower shortly after opening.

Yet, as ELLA pointed out, the fair also represented substantial advances in hygiene and health. Where the fair was good, it was just TERRIFIC!

ANN, I loved the anecdotes about Buffalo Bill and his Wild West Show! Initially, the fair refused Buffalo Bill a concession within the fairgrounds. I guess they thought he wasn't elegant enough for the beautiful White City? But, when the Wild West Show opened adjacent to the fairgrounds BEFORE the official opening of the fair, and began attracting hordes of visitors, it was plain that Burnham and the committee should have considered that application more carefully. That western show was also a wonderful index as to how much times were changing!

Indians that, some brief years earlier, had been engaged in active warfare with the United States government, now played cards with their fellow cowboy actors in the evenings and often wandered the midway plaisance gawking at the Algerian Village and belly dancers between Wild West shows. I just love it!

Oh welcome back, ANNA! Hope you're feeling better and thanks for checking in with us. Do give us a few of your comments, It's great to hear from you.

THERE ARE SOME NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING.

Harriet

I read most all the posts in Devil in the White City and like it. Most of the time I read all of the posts in the New discussions here in Books and Literature just don't have time to post often.

Ginger

WHERE THE FAIR WAS GOOD, IT WAS JUST TERRIFIC!

I loved that line, Harriet, it prompted a vague little ditty in my head from my childhood about a little girl that when she was good, she was very, very good but when she was bad she was horrid? How does it go? A little nursery rhyme? Anyway, that's all I can remember.

Do you suppose there was a structure or hierarchy in all these workers? There would, of necessity, have to be. A superintendent for this project, a supervisor under him, a contractor boss somewhere in there - anyone know how these things progress? Ever watch at a construction site?

Obviously I haven't or I would know more!

Good question about Holmes' hotel - the World's Fair Hotel! I'll have to review that chapter, but there is an idea in my head that people (particularly young women) just disappeared and no one seemed to notice. How could that be? Wouldn't these young women have friends, relatives?

later, eg

ELLA: You wondered about the words: There was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was horrid. How do I know these words you ask? My father used to sing this to me a lot when I was little.

I seem to remember reading that parents and friends of those who disappeared did ask Holmes about it but he smiled and said he would help them look but he didn't know what happened. Also the police were busy with other things and didn't do anything about the disappearances.

That's it, Marjorie!!!! You see, you have a much better memory than I do, I have snatches of memory - bits of this and that.

Thank you! I don't remember where as a child I learned this, but I'm sure no one sang it to me. No one ever read to me or sang to me as a child; I had a very unusual childhood, but I learned to read early in life - before I ever started in school. (Long story) And when I did get to school everyone thought I was a genius - hahahahaaa! They came to know better when I hit those story problems!

ELLA and MARJORIE, here is a quote from the chapter The Black City at the very, very beginning of the book, in which Larson discusses the frequency of anonymous death in 1893 Chicago.

Jane Addams, the urban reformer who founded Chicago's Hull House, wrote, "Never before in civilization have such numbers of young girls been suddenly released from the protection of the home and permitted to walk unattended upon the city streets and to work under alien roofs."

Anonymous death came early and often. Each of the the thousand trains that entered and left the city did so at grade level. You could step from a curb and be killed by the Chicago Limited. Every day on average two people were destroyed at the city's rail crossings. Streetcars fell from drawbridges. Horses bolted and dragged carriages into crowds. Fires took a dozen lives a day (rendering many victims unrecognizable.)

There was diphtheria, typhus, cholera, influenza. And there was murder. In the time of the fair the rate at which men and women killed one another rose sharply throughout the nation, but especially in Chicago, where police found themselves without the manpower or expertise to manage the volume.

WHAT A CLIMATE FOR A SERIAL MURDERER LIKE HENRY HOLMES!

Holmes was later inundated with letters, addressed to his strange and gloomy World's Fair Hotel, since that was the last address family members at home had for the vanished victims. Yet it was so easy for him to deny knowledge.

Can you imagine the emotions of the families of the victims? No telephones...parents couldn't besiege Holmes with multiple telephone calls in the hopes of hearing inconsistencies in his explanations...they could only wait in their geographically scattered homes for an answer to their desperate letters, or finally brave the cost of a trip to vice-ridden Chicago to look for their missing daughters.

With no modern methods of identification, with no refrigeration facilities to keep bodies for prolonged periods of time, police buried some anonymous bodies in Potter's Field or donated others to medical facilities. It was possible to disappear so completely back then.

The thought just terrifies me personally. When our son was in college, sometimes I didn't find him in when I phoned his dorm. I guess, like many college youngsters, he was busy with his new life and delayed in returning our call. It always flashed through my head,,,what will I do if he doesn't call by tomorrow? I had an overactive imagination and remained anxious until I heard from him. What a horror it must have been for the parents of Holmes's victims!

YES, I BELIEVE THERE WAS CLASS PREJUDICE INVOLVED HERE. If Mrs. Bertha Palmer had vanished, I believe the police would have launched an active search for her, don't you? If the Infanta of Spain, a Chicago visitor during the early days of the fair had disappeared, wouldn't a massive investigation have been instituted? But of course the rich and famous did NOT check into Holmes's World Fair Hotel.

DO YOU FEEL THAT HOLMES'S MURDERS WERE MOTIVATED BY SEX OR BY AN URGE FOR POWER? OR BY BOTH? What triggered his bestial urges, in your opinion?

Harriet

In my opinion Holmes wanted power. He had a complusive need to control everything and everyone around him. His need for control led him to find ways to avoid paying for products and services he "purchased" as well as laying his traps for his victims.

I think that the description of a 'sociopath' makes Holmes a very sick person. I can't even give him the title of 'man'. He was an insult to mankind! All of his actions bespeak of derisive feelings toward his fellow citizens. Cynicism seems to flow from all of his actions which gives him that sly smiling way of treating everyone.

Was anyone else here surprised with the fact that occasionaly, when he had gassed a victim, the hotel smelled like gas. I wonder if they had already started treating the gas with an identifying odor?? And, the workers who installed all of the gas piping to the bedrooms? Weren't they the least bit curious?

What about his control systems that he had put in his bedroom whereby he could turn on the gas to any room including that ugly enclosed cellar room? Didn't any of the workmen wonder about? Or discuss it among themselves?? Take stories home?? Look at how we are told that Walt Disney's father talked about the building of the Fair frequently to his family.

When I was reading about the planning of the Fair, my first thoughts were, "this place sounds like Disney Land!" And, by gosh, I was close!

ANN: I was impressed, also, by the passage that little Walt Disney was listening to his father talk about the Fair.

I am moving along in my reading but not finished with the book yet. I have gotten to where I am wondering what happened to the exhibits from the Fair. So far I haven't recognized anything described as an exhibit at the Fair that I also saw as a child at the Museum. It wouldn't surprise me if, at the very least, the Fair exhibits generated some of the ideas used in the Museum's exhibits.

NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING, FOLKS!

ANN, you've brought up a point that fascinated me also. Holmes acted as his own contractor when he built his hotel, so he was the only one who had a complete overview of the construction. He assigned his employees individual jobs with no point of reference to the total design of the hotel, and he fired people often, especially if they might have seemed too curious about unusual construction features. Also, I think many of his laborers were just so glad to have work that they didn't want to endanger their jobs in any way?

Our author uses only hints to reveal what happened to Holmes's victims. Only two times in the book does he actually describe a murder, and that is partly the result of his own conjecture. Mostly, the book describes odors like the pervading scent of chemicals and gas in the hotel, and then all of us KNOW that Holmes is using ether and gas to harm people. It is left to our imagination to picture the uses of the chutes and kiln and other fearsome appurtenances to that building.

As MARJORIE pointed out, Holmes loved the sensation of power and control. He loved being the arbiter of life and death for his victims and in some awful way, this generated erotic fantasies for him.

THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO VERY EFFECTIVE PORTRAITS OF MADNESS IN THIS BOOK. Our author gives us a detailed analysis of Holmes and his terrible, unfeeling ways. However, he also provides a marvelous portrait of a totally different kind of mental illness in his portrayal of Prendergast.

I completely underrated that segment earlier, but now, as the book progresses, I have become quite impressed. Our author has drawn a different type of sketch of madness. He has done it with quick, precise artistic strokes of literary color in the case of Prendergast...and that madman's delusional life has become rendered in front of us with terrifying vividness.

Prendergast created a fantasy relationship with a man, Mayor Harrison, who didn't even know he existed, and used that as a basis for a grievance that didn't exist. The ills that the human mind is capable of can be very sobering to consider, can't they? If we accept Prendergast's delusion that he is an intimate and respected supporter of Mayor Harrison, then much of his erratic behavior begins to have a frightening kind of logic?

Yet NO logic can justify the actions that Prendergast takes in real life! Two madmen on the loose in 1893 Chicago?

Harriet

Ella is having problems getting on SN today. Hope that clears up for her. Just wanted to let you all know.

Great observation, Harriet, about the two types of mental illnesses described in the book; that of Prendergast and Holmes. I don't know much about mental illnesses; neither did psychologists of that day or were they called that?

But we do know that they existed then and they exist now and who is to blame for not recognizing them and doing something about it? I don't think anyone is, it is a condition of mankind that some of us will go mad or become mentally ill. We used to call the houses of the mentally ill "insane asylums" or "crazy houses" - I'm not sure where the mentally ill are kept today? Those that are diagnosed??

State hospitals? I know they exist; we have friends whose son - a schizophrenic - will spend the rest of his life in one and his parents have spent years and fantastic sums of money trying to keep him out of it, to no avail. He had so much promise when young and that mental illnes is terrible

To change the subject for just a moment - there is a wonderful article in TIME this week about an architect by the name of REM KOOLHAAS and pictures of a couple of his buildings. BEAUTIFUL! Something Root might have liked because they seem so light and ariy (is that a word?). One is the Seattle Library: Seattle Central Library

Here is another source: Photos

An architect that says he is sick to death of skyscrapers which he considers vertical cylinders that isolate people instead of putting them into circulation with one another. I like his ideas and buildings.

The chapter "NIGHT IS THE MAGICIAN" is one of the most entertaining in the book. Funny stories - I loved every one of them - and all the new devices the fairgoers saw which we take for granted today. This quote explains the magic:

"....the earliest visitors to Jackson Park saw immediately that the fair's greatest power lay in the strange gravity of the buildings themselves. The Court of Honor produced an effect of majesty and beauty that was far greater than even the dream conjured in the Rookery Library. Some visitors found themselves so moved by the Court of Honor that immediately upon entering they began to weep."

I wish Burnham and Root were able to read this book don't you?

The title of the chapter comes from the illumination of the lights and the buildings at night which led Chicagoans to believe they could stroll with complete safety through the Fair and it was magic.

A perfect dream of a place for a few months if you could forget the evil that was taking place in other parts of Chicago.

Do you ever wonder why Erik Larson, who could write lovely things about the FAir, included such evil stories?

Thanks, Ann, for letting folks know I couldn't get on for awhile; neither could Harriet, we were emailing each other.

Seniornet must have been having a few problems, but all is well now.

ELLA: MARCIE told me that it was not SeniorNet having the problems but it was a Regional problem on the Internet itself. Sometimes I guess it is difficult to pin down what causes problems we encounter. I, also, had a problem earlier today.

From the heading: "Why did the refusal to grant Buffalo Bill Cody a concession within the fairgrounds prove to be a very expensive mistake? "

Buffalo Bill Cody was able to open his exhibit BEFORE the Fair started and he began to get visitors immediately. If his exhibit had been a part of the Fair, the revenue from his exhibit would have been split with the Fair and help to pay other Fair expenses.

Buffalo Bill was very popular and knew how to attract people. Since the Midway part of the Fair was very different from the rest of the Fair, Buffalo Bill would have fit in there perfectly.

The Fair provided marvelous "firsts" for many of the attendees. For some, the experience of the fair was their first contact with electric lights. Such folks might have been stunned by one building that was lit up after dark, maybe even by one well illuminated room...but the fair did so, so much more.

All the buildings were lit up as powerful searchlights pierced the darkness. For the first time in their lives, people were stunned by the beauty of colored lights playing on fountains of water, or lagoons reflecting the glow of the illuminated buildings as silent boats glided along.

The Court of Honor at Night

WHAT A STUNNER THESE IMAGES MUST HAVE BEEN TO THOSE WHO LIVED WITH KEROSENE LAMPS! As ELLA pointed out, it was a whole new concept to walk after dark and SEE the surroundings in this new way. But even more, people were discovering that electric lights had a special aesthetic ambience at night. It was a brand new form of visual beauty, wasn't it?

I wonder if Burnham and Olmsted had really been aware of the spectacular nature of their electric lights display in advance...or was it a surprise to them also when the lights were first turned on? I wish they could read this book also, ELLA.

MARJORIE, I love how you pointed out that the financial success of the Chicago Fair might have been SO MUCH GREATER if Buffalo Bill's customers had been obliged to buy a fair ticket to see his show. Wouldn't YOU have loved to see Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show? I would have loved to attend myself!

WHAT A TURNAROUND FOR BURNHAM WHEN THE FAIR OPENED! At the beginning, didn't Burnham and Root care only about displaying the solemn beauty of architecture? Now, all of a sudden everyone was thinking about how to attract more customers. Financial reality hit hard.

Didn't a delay in setting up the Ferris Wheel also interfere with financial success at the fair. WHAT MADE THE FERRIS WHEEL SO POPULAR AND SPECTACULAR WITH FAIRGOERS? Wasn't that another exhibit that provided a brand new sensation for people to enjoy?

Harriet

That's a stunning picture of the Court of Honor, Harriet! Just as is the lovely picture of it in the heading!

Yes, Marjorie, they made a mistake by not allowing Buffalo Bill at the FAir didn't they?

In looking over my underlined phrases in the chapter - ONE GOOD TURN - (isn't that a delightful title, ambiguous to say the least!) the Ferris Wheel would have been so very frightening!

Would you have ridden on it?

It was 264 feet at its tallest - as high as the city's tallest skyscraper and each of the 36 cars weighed 13 tons. And, AND, AND "AS THE WHEEL BEGAN TO TURN, LOOSE NUTS AND BOLTS AND A COUPLE OF WRENCHES RAINED FROM ITS HUB AND SPOKES!

However, no one minded that! Everyone seemed to dance with joy as the Ferris Wheel made its first turn!

And then one good turn deserved another!

later, eg

It is hard to imagine if I would have been willing to ride the Ferris Wheel. It is even more difficult to try to put myself into the lives of the people who visited the Fair.

As HARRIET said, kerosene was the primary source of illumination that everyone used. What a change the electricity made!

Another phrase that kept recurring in the book is the contrast between the White City and the Black City (everything in Chicago outside the Fair). I can't imagine living in the Black City and taking time to go into the Fair and having everything so completely different. What a fantasy was wrought!

I mentioned earlier that I attended a World's Fair in New York City one time. What I remember from going to that Fair was the crowds of people; standing in line with my children waiting to get into things; the look of everything from ground level. I believe we did go on an overhead tram but I don't remember as much about the overall view of the Fair as I do about the eye level details.

Burnham and Olmstead were concerned with the BIG picture. I wonder if it even occurred to them to wonder what it would feel like to stand in the shadow of these huge buildings and walk through the throngs by the lagoons. Perhaps Olmstead would have gotten closer to this image than Burnham. What do you think?

of the book (library book) plus I have a houseful of company who arrived on Friday and will disembark on Monday afternoon. Yesterday we ate and shopped. Today we will visit my grans plus see the Chihuly Exhibit again. Busy, busy!

I can remember visiting the Indiana Fair which was practically held in my back yard. The Ferris Wheel by then had been reduced to those three person seats and my father insisted that I had to ride. He was so excited about showing me that wonderful wheel and I was terrified. The man who ran the wheel put it into gear and I started crying, very loudly. My dad called to the man and after two revolutions, the giant wheel stopped so I could get off. I think that I was only 4 at the time but I watched a 3 year old gran ride one last year and he was filled with glee! No fear! I still don't particularly like the Ferris wheel but now ride it while looking out at the sites and ignoring the height. Here is a link to the 200 foot high Milenium Wheel in London. Millenium Wheel

and a small page with pictures of the wheels of Japan and Vienna. The latest proposal for a giant wheel comes from Shanghai and, if built, will be 660 feet high. Can you imagine? I don't think that I would have any problem riding in the cars that are like small rooms. That's a whole different sensation from sitting with your little body exposed to the elements at the local fair.

Giant Wheels-proposed and built

LOVELY PICTURES, ANN! THANKS FOR THOSE, WOW! Is all about I can say except that no, I wouldn't ride any of them. Height has always bothered me, I can't even ride those outside elevators some buildings have - frighten me to death.

Did you notice that again when the Ferris Wheel was dedicated that the band and the crowd sang "My Country, Tis of Thee?" That I don't understand as today at any appropriate time or opening we sing "The Star-Spangled Banner." Why didn't they?

I know those that reading the chapters about the Fair have had a lot of chuckles - downright laughing out loud - at some of the hilarious things that happened, i.e., the lady who took off her skirt and threw over the head of a very frightened man on the Ferris Wheel - so many funny things here.

And how about the woman who thought the Pope was at the Fair? Or the artificial human beings? Hahahahaaaaaaaa

New questions will be in the heading later today. Stay with us!

I cannot remember our city closing down for any reason whatsoever! Yet it seems possible that something may have happened in my lifetime for that to occur.

How about the rest of you? See the new questions in the heading

But how proud all the promoters, all the businessmen, everyone that had anything to do with the Fair, must have been to be able to say "we broke the Paris record for attendance" and wasn't it something to read that "MORE PEOPLE THAN HAD ATTENDED ANY SINGLE DAY OF ANY PEACEABLE EVENT IN HISTORY were at the Fair on Chicago Day.

I don't remember a city closing down anywhere I have lived unless it was for a major blizzard or other natural disaster. However, in the case of a natural disaster the emergency services were out in full force and the closure of the city was unplanned.

I am sure that the closure of the City of Chicago for Chicago Day at the Fair was not only planned but well advertised in advance. I thought it was very impressive that as large a city as Chicago would close down for the Fair.

Life must have been VERY different in the Dark City than it is today -- little electricity and all the modern things that use electricity; no shopping malls; no (or few) paved roads; etc. Were there automobiles then? I don't remember if that was mentioned.

I remember all about the horses and trains. Were those trains electric, gas or horsepowered? I was disturbed to read that people were killed by stepping in front of a train. There were, apparently, no barriers between pedestrians and the trains.

ANN, those were great links to the Millennium Wheel in England. I particularly enjoyed the views of London at different altitudes. It gave me an idea of why the Chicago Ferris Wheel so must have thrilled and frightened the public at the Chicago Fair.

In an era where no one had ever flown in an airplane, and most skyscrapers had not yet been built, imagine the thrill and terror of seeing the world from the viewpoint of such height. PEOPLE MUST HAVE COMPARED THEMSELVES TO BIRDS AS THEY VIEWED THE WORLD FROM ON HIGH! It was outside of everybody's normal experiences.

Some people experienced a whole new disorder that had never been heard of before...fear of heights. It must have been a totally unexpected reaction to themselves and others around them, like the poor fellow who tried to bash in the doors and windows of his Ferris Wheel compartment in an attempt to get out.

ELLA, I can't believe it...fairgoers spontaneously crowded into that Ferris Wheel even as it rained nuts and bolts during preliminary testing. WHAT INNOCENCE! What unthinking TRUST that it would work properly! Didn't people understand that it might not be safe yet? I guess the whole concept of safety testing for mechanical devices was in its infancy and people must have figured that if something was in the Chicago Fair, it certainly would operate correctly?

MARJORIE, what an imaginative visualization of old Chicago after dark. Thank you for that. Many people must have chosen to mostly keep to their homes after nightfall in the 1890's? I think I once read that America didn't get a nationwide system of paved roads until the 1940's or 1950's.

We now take it for granted that anyone who chooses, can drive from coast to coast in America on well paved, well maintained roads. Not so in the early years of the twentieth century. Back then I suppose that nobody could even be sure that automobiles weren't just a passing fad?

Also MARJORIE, I loved your conjecture about the look of the Chicago Fair at eye level as people waited in line for admission to buildings or strolled by the lagoons. That IS how most people see public fairs, isn't it? The lagoons must have had a marvelously cooling effect in an era that had no air conditioning against the heat of summer.

more...

I appreciate all the remarks about the Ferris Wheel and the London Eye. My girl friend in England was given a trip on the Eye as a birthday gift last year.. she has more courage than I.. although I live in Chicago I've never been up in the Sears Tower or the Hancock building..they're MUCH too high up for me. The closest thing I've ever done isthe Eiffel Tower as a teenager.. all the way to the top and have pictures to prove it!!. .Earlier on it struck me that the reason Holmes could get away with his shenanigans is that ID's were not so important as now.. try boarding a plane without one..One reason I say that is when I I was researching Ellis Island site for my Dad's visit to USA in the 1920's and I could not find him under his given (Birth Certificate)name. I found him under the name he was "alsoknown as". Right now in Chicago they are building the Millenium Park way north of the white City site, I happened to see some of the construction from the Cultural Center/Old public library last Thursday evening..Impressed..just like the folks in 1893.. colkot

Yes, I have seen Chicago closed up.. I'll tell you exactly when.. Pope John Paul visited here in fall 1979 and had a Mass in Grant Park and a "Festival of Praise" occurred before that. My late husband and I took a group of Polish/American youngsters, including my then 9 year old daughter in Polish Costume together with some parents as chaperones to perform a suite of Polish dances on the Band Shell Stage as part of that. My two older sons went earlier in Polish costume as part of the Honor guard for the Pope. We travelled from our house by "EL" train and marched over the Monroe St bridge from Dearborn St. Everything was deserted and quiet, people out smiled at the kids and cheered us on.The kids performed well and then stayed in the crowd to watch the Mass.. they were with hearing impaired people and all learned to sign "God Bless the Pope". It was a truly unique experience and people were just so pleasant to one another.. Wish it was always like that... Colkot

WHAT WONDERFUL MEMORIES, COLKOT! Thank you so much for your posts. I love your description of the smiling, encouraging crowd toward all the children in their Polish costumes.

What an honor that your sons acted as part of an honor guard for the Pope!

We're thrilled that you've been reading along with us on the discussion. PLEASE...feel free to join in as often as you wish.

ELLA, I did a search on ILOR which indicated that the Star Spangled Banner was proclaimed as our national anthem in 1931. It took 20 years of arguing for Congress to finally get that enacted as a law. I wonder why there was so much controversy about it? God Bless America, which was certainly a much simpler song both melodically and lyrically, was apparently everybody's favorite for a long time prior to that?

You know, God Bless America has the same melody as Great Britain's long-time famous anthem, God Save The Queen. I wonder, is that why it lost the chance to be America's national anthem? No copycatting for us on national anthems, I guess!

Perhaps, in 1893 God Bless America was just the more popular and well-known anthem, and that's why it was sung at all the ceremonies at the Chicago Fair?

What a crush Chicago Day must have been! Here are two illustrations of it.

Crowd on Chicago Day

The next image is my personal favorite because of the close-up of the people, and their clothes. It carries SUCH a feeling of walking in time for me. I just love it!

Relaxing By the Beach On Chicago Day

I only remember New York City closing down for an occasional major blizzard. New York only does that very, very rarely and very unwillingly. It would take about 30" or more of snow to do the trick. New York sustains enormous financial losses in federal aid, for instance, and in salaries paid to non-attending civil service employees when they shut down.

As a former NYC teacher, I remember being sooo frustrated during some weather emergencies. For sure, NOBODY could travel...but New York City declared that its school system was open and functioning, with perhaps a two hour delay for hazardous travel. If I finally made it into work, you could count the number of children in attendance in the whole school with the fingers of two hands.

Still, the New York City school system was OFFICIALLY open. hahaha.

Harriet

Sorry for not being around. We had a death in the department (sweet man, only 54, in apparent excellent health). I've gotten a bit behind, but I am up to that ferris wheel--I did like the way we had a couple of sections about the young man Ferris without his name being used. That would have given the game away.

I also loved reading about young Walt Disney listening to his Dad's stories of working on the construction of the Columbian Exposition. No wonder he decided to duplicate it.

I would have gone up in the Ferris Wheel. I love being really really high up, especially when it doesn't involve airplanes. I have flown quite a bit, but the airliner seats just about kill my back--the worst seating in the world, I think. I have had back surgery twice so I am extra picky about things to sit in.

Last time I was in Chicago--more than ten years ago--I went to a party on New Year's Eve on the 130-somethingth floor of a building that was even higher than that. There were special elevators that went to floors 90 and above. I couldn't keep myself away from the window and its view of Lake Michigan and the down town streets. The cars were like matchbox cars and the waves on the Lake looked like they had been put in with a narrow paint brush. It was something else. I couldn't quite imagine LIVING that high off the ground, but it certainly was fun to visit.

I also liked the chapter about Holmes' hotel which didn't fill as he had hoped because of the economy, but still he told young men that the rooms were all taken. He rented only to women. He seems to have been obsessed with young and vulnerable women, just couldn't get enough of them. I also thought that the remark about young women away from home accepting familiarities that they would not tolerate in Sioux Falls. Don't we all feel a little wild when we are away from places that people know us? Maybe I should just speak for myself?

Maryal

When I lived in England I thought that America the Beautiful was the National Anthem (like God Save the Queen) imagine that..and I knew all the words to all the verses. Once I came here ...oops... it's the Star Spangled Banner..! Much harder to sing... Colkot

Oh my! Oops for me too. I'm getting My Country, Tis of Thee mixed up with God Bless America. Please excuse.

MARYAL, I'm sorry to hear about your colleague's death. That's sad.

I think you're right that some people might want to cut loose when they're far from home in any era. Holme's victims paid a heavy price. I guess those girls thought Holmes was a real Chicago tycoon and didn't want to appear as naive and countrifed as they probably really were?

Harriet

Having been a "fairgrounds rat" as a child, I know that even the permanent buildings are very drafty and cold in the winter sometimes but I would have thought of offering the fair buildings to the city for temporary housing for the homeless and out of work folks that were in great number that winter after the Fair. Where was Jane Addams and her Hull House during all this time? I will look!

I did a little research and found that the Depression of the 1890's started in Jan-1893 and lasted 'til 1897. The unemployment rate was a high as 11% in 1893.

Named for George Washington Gale Ferris Jr., who was born in Galesburg, IL (near where I live).

Here is a link to his biography that gives an interesting account of the Ferris wheel.

http://www.thezephyr.com/archives/bigwheel.htm

PAT: That was an interesting link. It reminded me of coal driven steam engines. When I was posting earlier about how the trains were at street level and people got killed, I had forgotten that they could have been driven by steam engines. I don't know where that memory had gone.

PAT, how very sad for George Ferris, dying all alone and bankrupt and if I'm doing my math right, he was only 37 years old! He was an engineer, why couldn't continue with his career?

But he left a legacy that will live on in all the Ferris wheels everywhere, albeit much smaller and not so frightening!

ANN, I thought when I read about the end of the Fair that something could have been done with those buildings also, but they were not built to last and those who dreamed of the Fair and saw it come true wanted to sweep it all away as magically as it had appeared, rather than let it just decay.

I must quote a letter written by Charles McKim to Burnham as he prepared to leave Jackson Park for the last time (and you will recall his fate in the not too distant future):

"You gave me a beautiful time and the last days of the Fair will always remain in my mind, as were the first, especially identified with yourself. It will be pleasaant for the rest of our natural lives to be able to look back to it and talk it over and over and over again, and it goes without saying that you can depend upon me in every way as often hereafter as you may have need of me."

What a lovely sentiment!

"The White City had drawn men and protected them; the Black City now welcomed them back, on the eve of winter, with filth, starvation, and violence."

Ann gave us a few statistics of the depression that was to overwhelm the country for a few years. Amazing, isn't it, that the Fair was constructed just a year before the depression hit; it would not have been so successful after 1893-4.

Everything is coming to an end very soon, even Holmes' career, his creditors hired an attorney.

Have you noticed that Erik Larson is no longer writing separate chapters for Holmes, Prendergasst and the Fair?

Why do you think he is doing this?

About the fair being too beautiful for destruction...personally, I've felt that way all along.

I wonder if there could have been a compromise? Wouldn't there have been a lot of advantages to deferring the closing for another two months? The fair only started doing really well after Chicago Day. The completion of all the exhibits, including the Ferris Wheel, created a new spurt of interest.

I know the fair had to go eventually...the buildings were not built sturdily enough for permanent use...but what a waste! ONLY 6 MONTHS OF DISPLAY FOR ALL OF THAT WORK AND BEAUTY?

Holding it open a few months more might have created a tidy nest of profits and truly made the fair even more of a legend. The specter of unemployment for the fair employees could have been held in abeyance until after Christmas? The fair itself might have been a spectacular attraction during the Christmas season?

I suddenly pictured people ice skating at dusk on the lagoons under the glow of those newfangled, colored electric lights? HOW FUN!

I've been trying to figure out why the Chicago Exposition was closed so early, at the height of its popularity. Do you feel it might have had something to do with the fear of the Chicago winter?

For those of you who have lived in Chicago, how cold does Chicago get in December?

When do the worst snows begin?

Do YOU feel the fair could have survived some cold or snow?

Harriet

Harriet~Chicago winters are something else. Bitterly cold wind. Snowfall varies, but there's almost always quite a lot. I don't see how they could have kept the Fair open during the winter.

I'm sure Colkot will have more to offer.

Chicago weather...in fact IL weather ... very cold at times...

And the wind off Lake Michigan would probably make it colder than the western suburbs...

I remember one time when I was home (in Chicago) for winter vacation from college and the wind chill factor made the temperature at least -20 degrees Farenheit. I think I was glad because at that time the temperatures at college in Wisconsin were -40 degrees.

Chicago is VERY cold in the winter.

I definitely think that killing 3 children is still a horror today. Holmes ranks right up there with all the other serial killers I know of as far as the horror of his behavior is concerned.

Sounds to me like we have a very knowledgeable consensus of opinion regarding the Chicago winter. Thank you, MARYAL, PAT and MARJORIE.

WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE PERSISTENCE OF DETECTIVE FRANK GEYER WHO JUST REFUSED TO GIVE UP IN HIS QUEST TO FIND HOLMES' VICTIMS?

Detective Geyer had suffered a terrible personal tragedy. He was still trying to recover from the death of his own wife and young daughter in a house fire. Several months later his friend, Philadelphia district attorney George S. Graham, invited Geyer to help search for Alice, Nellie and Howard, the three missing Pitezel children. The two had collaborated on other difficult cases in the past.

Do you think that Detective Geyer's own personal losses affected his attitude about the search for the three children? How?

What was your opinion about Carrie Pitezel, the mother of the three missing children? Do you feel that people in 1893 were as aware of the dangers of entrusting children to other adults as we are today?

Mrs. Pitezel incorrectly believed Holmes was faking her husband's death in an insurance scam. Assuming that Pitezel was still alive, she agreed to send three of her children to visit him under the guidance of Holmes. How would YOU feel about sending children to visit a parent who is in hiding to avoid discovery of a illegal scheme?

Does it reflect on Mrs. Pitezel in any way that she cooperated in this scheme with Holmes and her husband?

Do you feel Mrs. Pitezel was a responsible parent? By today's standards? By 1893 standards?

Looking forward to some opinions from you all.

Harriet

This is the title of an article by Tom McNamee which appeared in the Chicago SunTimes Monday April 26.. the header says Little left from 1893 expo- but one man dreams of re-creating it... The article mentions that the author of the article had just read the book we are discussing and went on a tour of the sites(whatever could be found) with architect Charles E. Gregerson the foremostChicago expert on the 1893 World's Fair..If anyone is interested it's probably on the Suntimes website. Chicago's winters...I've known very cold weather in November, December can be very pleasant with no snow ..or cold with snow. I expect January & February to be the worst. Big blizzards not quite sure when 69(?)when the snow covered cars 77 and other times. Either I'm getting acclimatized or the winters don't seem to be as bad...!! Colkot

COLKOT: I had forgotten about the blizzards. I think the one you are thinking about was the winter of 67-68. I lived in New Jersey and my mother was visiting. The blizzard struck the day before she planned to return to Chicago and she was forced to stay almost a week longer. She was worried about my father who had to walk a couple of miles in the snow to my brother's house because all the cars were snowed in.

HARRIET: I suspect that Detective Geyer's own losses made him want to find out about the Pitezel children. He was probably hoping for a different outcome in this case and wanted to return them safely to their mother. He was certainly persistent. I would want someone like him tracking for me if one of my loved ones every disappeared.

I remember the Blizzard of 67. We were living outside Chicago in Hoffman Estates, and I pulled a sled to the local grocery store to get food for us and a few neighbors. It took a long time to get there and there weren't many staples left. This was before 4-wheel drive vehicles were abundant and the snow recovered the E-W routes as soon as they were plowed.

I have photographs of the kids in the snow--which came almost all the way up our garage door! School was out for days and days.

There were also a number of other bad storms during that period. I know there were some bad snows in 1964 because my daughter got one of those rapidly developing pneumonias and with one lung completely filled, she had to be hospitalized. It was quite a feat to get back and forth to the hospital.

I hope this weekend I'll have some time to finish this book which I am enjoying. As for the question about the covering of the mass murderer, Holmes,--whether or not it was done to lure a larger audience, I don't know, but I'd guess that it wasn't. When one is approaching a big historical topic like the Fair, one would do considerable background reading, and I'll bet that our author bumped into the stories about Holmes.

I like the Title a lot. I'm not at all sure why, but I really do like it.

AND, when I lived in Chicago it always seemed to me that I was living amidst great power and success as well as great danger. Growing up, I heard stories about Al Capone and the gangs.

When I was five a little girl was kidnapped, and pieces of her body were found in drains and other places for months and months. Wrapped in butcher's paper. I was terrified. My parents did the best they could to protect me from such news, but I was an early reader, and I found out what was going on. I was entirely too curious for my own good. But there are advantages to such a childhood. Mr. Holmes would never have gotten me.

The newspapers kept running the photograph of that little girl--I can almost remember her name--she was blond and blue-eyed with her hair in pigtails. She looked very much like one of my friends.

The internet is an astonishment and Google a wonder.

Writing the above post, I got caught up in those childhood memories, and I wondered if it would be possible to find the child's name and the date.

Her name was Suzanne Degnan; she was six years old. On the evening of January 6, 1946, she was kidnapped from her home. (January 6 was my older sister's birthday.) I was five years old--got that part right. Part of what terrified me was the missing girl and I were the same age and the ladder used to reach her bedroom would have been enough for someone to get into my first floor apartment bedroom.

The story was top news in all of Chicago's newspapers. I had access to two of them and my best friend's family got one of the others.

You can read a little about this horrendous crime here

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/heirens/cities_2.html

~Maryal

I remember the snow storm or 67/68 as I was off of work for a week. Now that was a bad one. Neibors on snow moblies (sp) got what was needed for us.

Here's the link to the Sun Times article which I completely enjoyed. 'Twas a pleasure to read. Thanks for bringing it here. Chicago's White City Rebuilt

I sent a copy of the book to my brother for his birthday in May. Hope he likes it as well as I did.

I think there were more devils than Holmes in the area at the time. Like Prendergast. Maybe the author acknowledgement of "THE DEVIL" might also refer to the bad events that occured during the building of the Fair. Deaths during the construction phase, strikes that needed to be settled to continue the construction, the death of Root, just when he was needed--the drenching rains that lasted for so long and hindered the raising of the buildings and the landscaping of the grounds.

Wonderful article, COLKOT. Thank you for telling us about it.

ANN, thanks for bringing it to us all. I enjoyed reading it also.

Just the quickest of a good morning to all of you. I'm on my way out of the house and will return shortly.

later...

Harriet

Since I finished the book I have been laid up with severe bursitis in my left shoulder ..in a sling and on narcotics for pain. I am better but dont know what I have said about the book.

It was such a contrast the effort to show Chicago at its best and finding so many terrible things .it was really the world at its worst.

I was very taken with the comment about the how the world was changing especially for young women and the dangers of just living in a crowded city. I grew up in Illinois near ST Louis and I can recall as a child (I was an avid reader of the newspapers ..three a day , two St Louis papers and one local one ) the terrible things that were happening in Chicago it was a city I never wanted to visit because all the reported crimes frightened me..I stopped over there several times traveling by train but was glad when we left ...those stories still frightened me. I know I would never go there for any convention etc and have always avoided it when traveling by car.

I am sure Holmes story was there for the author to discover and the contrast was just too much not to tell ......I liked the story of all the efforts at making the fair a success but still feel the depression of reading Holmes story ..Sometime I think I have lived too long and in a time when when I am very cognizant of man's inhumanity to man. I see no improvement when I read history ..it is the same story with different names, different places...makes me utterly sad,...anna

Thanks for link to rebuilding White City fair grounds. We have enough casino's on the south side of Chicago tho, so don't think it would make it.

I had been interested in Carrie Pitezel when I was reading the book. I thought her main history in life seemed to be that she was missing in action, sick if you will, whenever something responsible had to be done.

When her husband had to be identified at the morgue, who did Carrie Pitezel send to identify him? It was her fifteen year old daughter, Alice. Isn't that unusual in ANY era, sending a 15 year old, all by herself, to ID her father at the morgue? The mother said she couldn't go because she was sick, but, I don't know, you'd think any mother would have had to be DEAD herself before she should have allowed her child to do that job?

Carrie Pitezel probably thought, incorrectly, that the body was NOT her husband because she knew about the insurance scheme that her husband and Holmes had cooked up, but still...a fifteen year old alone at the morgue? Please...it just outrages me.

Later, Carrie allows three of her children to travel with Holmes to visit their "dead" father because he's sooo lonely for them in hiding. Again, she's too sick to take them herself? She puts them into the power of a man who turns out to be a monster.

It's proof that she knew about the insurance scheme to fake her husband's death. Sounds like this woman was not a model for responsible motherhood and not much of a model for ethics either. Yet, in the book, the newspapers don't question her actions at all. It just aggravated me, the positive way the newspapers of the era portrayed her.

MARJORIE, I agree with you strongly about Detective Geyer's motives. Thank goodness that his personal feelings drove him onward in combination with the need to untangle a mystery that must motivate all good detectives.

ANN said that there are many devils everywhere. I agree, and they seem to exist in every era as well as in 1893. Well said, ANN, as unfortunate as this fact may be.

Look at MARYAL'S horrendous memory about poor little Suzanne Degnan. Now that murder was done by a hideous devil! Reminds me a lot of that Elizabeth Smart case that occurred about two years ago in Colorado, only worse. The similarity was that both children were abducted from a place that should have been absolutely safe...her own bed in her own home.

I can understand why that story had such an impact, MARYAL. To a small child, the thought that one is not safe in bed at night must be very, very disturbing. Six years old is a very young age to begin to understand the evils that are possible in the world.

ANNAFAIR, the newspaper stories you read as a youngster must have been very disturbing also. I think that evil must be a baffling concept for a sensitive youngster. I remember my own son at six years old, trying to grasp the concept of war. He just couldn't understand why opposing governments wouldn't talk to each other and come to an agreement. Don't we ALL wish it could be so!

Long ago I saw a movie called RAGTIME. I remember it as a rich mosaic of people and places from the turn of the century, and that movie, like DEVIL, also tended to deal with the best and worst of mankind. I suspect our author, Erik Larson, was trying to give us a picture of an era as well as a picture of the Chicago Fair?

GINGER, the last sentence in COLKOT'S article made me laugh. Didn't know there are already casino's in the south of Chicago.

Harriet

Thank you, Pat W,and thank you, Colkot, for the two interesting articles.

The Sun Times was the paper we got in the morning. Because I spent twelve years of my life living on the edge of Jackson Park, I really enjoyed reading the familiar place names. I lived on 59th Street; the restaurant where the journalist met the architect was on 57th.

Pat's article about Galesburg's famous son was also fascinating. That it one heck of a lot of people to spin around all at the same time.

Did you know that Carl Sandberg was from there?? I just read that in a Midwest magazine at the doctor's office this morning. And, here's nice snapshot from a box camera taken in 1906. Its of Galesburg's round house. Galesburg

I wonder if the camera was one of those new fangled things that Kodak produced in 1893?

Was being there to read about things we take for granted...electricity, cracker jack, ferris wheels..I was never there but my husband was in Vienna and I recall him telling me they had a huge ferris wheel there with each car holding 40 people...I am really a merry go round person myself but when I was about nine I went on the ferris wheel by myself to prove I could ..of course it stopped at the top and there were some smarty boys in a near car who tried to rock it and scare me ..I was scared but I never let them know. The whole story was fascinating ...and there was an element of trust that I dont think we have now, although Heaven knows our news is full of similiar evils...anna

We have several casinos in South Chicago and I have been to them, Plus a casino in Michigan City that I have been to. Our senior Center takes us to them, but I do Not go any more.

Ann, I have slept in the Carl Sand Sandberg suite in a hotel in Galesburg and to me it was Very special. Oh, How I like to visit Chicago and then come back to the country life.To me Chicago is a "great" place to visit but am glad that I do Not live there any more.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR POSTS. I enjoyed them so much.

As we approach the end of the month, it's getting to be time to summarize our reactions to this book. ELLA HAS SEVERAL EXCELLENT QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING TO HELP US OUT AND, IF YOU HAVE ANY OPINIONS ON THEM, OR ON ANY OTHER ASPECTS OF THE BOOK, PLEASE WEIGH IN.

I think the rapid communication media with which we currently live has a lot to do with educating us about the cruelties that others are capable of. Our TV tells us about atrocities that are still in the process of happening. We are forced to grow out of our trust of human nature earlier than generations before us.

We are also better informed about the splendors of human accomplishment, from the landings on the moon to other scientific breakthroughs.

Is it an even exchange? WOULD WE PREFER THE ILLUSIONS OF ANOTHER AGE THAT PEOPLE ARE INNATELY GOOD?

Many people are fascinated by horrible happenings...as long as THEY are not personally touched by the pain of their actions, of course. I guess I'm not an exception to this. I really enjoyed the Holmes and Prendergast story lines. Yet, I would have felt repelled if someone I knew personally had been hurt by these killers. HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THOSE STORY LINES?

WERE YOU IMPRESSED BY THE FAIR?

Just this morning, the History Channel aired an early morning segment on Henry Holmes. That certainly caught my attention! There were marvelous old illustrations portraying Holmes, perhaps from the newspapers of the day...and the narrator attributed many more murders to him than Erik Larson did.

How I wish we all could have watched something like that together.

Fascinating stuff....

Harriet