Gandhi: The Story of My Experiments With Truth ~ 11/03
jane
August 15, 2003 - 09:54 am
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.".........Mahatma Gandhi
"Generations to come, it may be,will scarcely believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon earth." ..........Albert Einstein 1944
Woman is the companion of man, gifted with equal mental capacities. She has the right to participate in the minutest details in the activities of man, and she has an equal right of freedom and liberty with him. .......... Mahatma Gandhi
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For Your Consideration:
Part V
1. What do you think of Gandhi now that you read his book?
What experience did you have of him prior to reading his words?
Did anything surprise you?
2. Does anyone understand why there were two ashrams in SA (Pheonix and Tolstoy)? (Joan K)
3. Is Gandhi ever happy?
Does he hope to be?
What would it take to please him?
In Chapter XIV of Part V, he says: "It is no exaggeration, but the literal truth, to say that in this meeting with the peasants I was face to face with God , Ahimsa and Truth……..That day in Champaran was an unforgettable event in my life."
4. Has he met his life’s goal here? Is this what he has been searching for? (Ella)
5. "Sjt. Keshavrao Deshpande, who was a contempoerary and a close friend of mine in England…"(Chapter IV). What does Sjt mean?
6. Chapter V: "The woes of third class passengers are undoubtedly due to the high-handedness of railway authorities. But the rudeness, dirty habits, selfishness and ignorance of the passengers themselves are no less to blame. The pity is that they often do not realize that they are behaving ill, dirtily or selfishly. They believe that everything they do is in the natural way. All this may be traced to the indifference toward them of us 'educated' people."
Who does Gandhi blame here ultimately for the dirty and selfish behavior of the peasants?
Is there any evidence that he tried to do something about it? (Ella)
7. What is a pukka house (XVIII)
8. What is a hartal (End of Chapter XXX)
9. "I contended that if the Khalifat question…" (Chapter XXXVI).
What is the Khalifat question?
Do you understand the implications of what Gandhi is talking about?
10. "It was here that I first used the expression 'Himalayan Miscalculation, ' which obtained such a wide currency afterwards." (Chapter XXXIII). To what is Gandhi referring here?
11. What is What is a ryot (Chapter XIV)
12. Why do you suppose Gandhi insisted on traveling third class always despite its deplorable conditions? Sometimes he could not even sit down.
13. Having finished the book, do you understand now why the fasting of one man moved so many hundreds? If so, how would you explain that to somebody who has not read the book ?
14. "There was hardly a man present in that assembly but had some article of British manufacture on his person." (Chapter XXXVI). Can Gandhi's method of dress be understood in a larger context? In fact, do you find Gandhi's dress, food, and habits consistent with his stated beliefs or in contrast to them?
15. How would you describe Gandhi to somebody who had never heard of him in one sentence?
16. If you chose to emulate Gandhi in some small way, what would you give up in your life in order to seek the truth and do good? (Malryn)
Come tell us what YOU think!
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Reading Schedule:
November 1-8: Introduction and Part I November 9-15: Parts II and IIINovember 16-22 Part IVNovember 24-30: Part V, Summation, and Nirvana!
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Comments? Write Ella or Ginny
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Ginny
August 15, 2003 - 10:51 am
Hello and welcome to what we hope will prove to be one of the most controversial, exciting and enlightening discussions we've ever had.
You may have seen the movie Gandhi (which we will lend out) and you've surely heard of him, but have you ever READ his own thoughts?
If not, you're in for a surprise!
Who was this man? What were his philosophies? What was it like being married to a person that some consider a "saint?" And can you BE a saint if you are not Christian?
Exploring religion, politics and the power of being good, this is one book you simply don't want to miss.
As Pat W said when preparing this super heading, (thanks, Pat) when you read Gandhi everything else is blah. Find out why, find out if you agree, read the man in his own words and let's discuss it!!
The Freedom at Midnight discussion, a book about the last days of the British Raj, led by Tiger Tom a career diplomat who served 7 years in India and Pakistan, will debut in November, it would be a good background discussion for the stage Gandhi found himself on, and a chance to take advantage of talking to the Horses's Mouth, if you will, please don't miss any of these opportunities, we hope to see you here!
ginny
Ella Gibbons
August 15, 2003 - 05:53 pm
Of course, you and I have encountered knowledge of Gandhi somewhere in our lives - who he was, what he did.
But to be truthful, I never knew he had written an autobiography until Ginny brought it to my attention.
It is like no other book you have ever read!! That is not an exaggeration; I have read a great number of autobiographies in my life - there is none - NOT ONE THAT CAN COMPARE!
Now Ginny will not tell you this, but she attended lectures in England, at Oxford, this summer on India and so we will be privileged to hear about them from her and I know she will have much to tell us about Gandhi - how can one not discuss the man when one mentions India?
And especially are we privileged to have TIGER TOM who spent time in India lead a discussion prior to this one on the same subject!
BEATS ME HOW I CAme TO BE IN THE SAME COMPANY WITH SUCH LEARNED PEOPLE, BUT I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS DISCUSSION IN A VERY BIG WAY!
COME ALONG WITH US AND ENTER INTO GANDHI'S WORLD!
Hats
August 16, 2003 - 06:47 am
Hi Ginny and Ella,
I would love to enter Ghandi's world. The quotations above strike my interest. I especially like the third quotation. I am looking forward to renting the movie, Ghandi. Thank you for the stimulating heading.
Jonathan
August 16, 2003 - 10:32 am
Ginny, an Oxonian! Whow! Congratulations. It seems to me that A Passage to India played a part in achieving that distinguished status.
Ginny
August 16, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Hats!! Jonathan!! What a thrill to see you both here, I hope you will join us, have you both read Gandhi? Amazing incredible man, the conversation with his wife alone over a necklace given to her by the South African Government raises enough controversy for a year. He's simply incredible, I have no words, and so need to hear what others think.
I really don't know how I have managed to live this long and not READ his writings!! And if you have not seen the movie Gandhi, Hats, you really will be....what? Stunned?
Have you seen it, Jonathan?
You must see the movie but you really want to read his words, here is another quote:
The Seven Deadly Sins:
Wealth without work, pleasure without conscience,
knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without
humanity,
worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle.
Jonathan, I'm so excited to see you and Hats here I could scream. Know why? Because what I learned was that there are a million voices and perspectives about Gandhi and this period in history and each person has to come to his own conclusions, there IS no right answer, but there are hundreds of voices claiming "the right."
Gandhi is not a religion. He did not want followers or people taking after him, he's quite clear on that. He almost converted to Christianity, has a wonderful quote about that. He IS probably the most extraordinary human being who ever lived, to be, as Roosevelt called him, "a half naked fakir."
All we hear now is "the simple life." Right? The simple life. Gandhi....oh don't get me started, please don't miss Gandhi: The Story of My Experiments With Truth.
On A Passage to India, Jonathan, and yes, you're right, all those Raj movies did pique my interest initially: but you know what? I reread the book recently and the movie and the book are very different, have you read and seen them both?
In the class, (the Rise and Fall of the British Empire in India) the recommended video viewing for this period in this order is:
The Chess Player
A Passage to India
and
Gandhi.
I am having an awful time finding The Chess Player, it's a Hindi movie (actually in Urdu with subtitles) and is very subtle, but we'll lend out the other two, so you'll have a lot of background, I hope you and Hats and everybody else reading this will decide to join us, the study of Gandhiji is something nobody should miss!
ginny
Jonathan
August 16, 2003 - 02:58 pm
Ginny, after posting earlier today I rushed out to see if I could find G's Autobiography, or more like his 'Confessions', by the looks of it. What luck! The last copy on the bookseller's shelf. The book should make for a very interesting discussion.
Jonathan
Hats
August 16, 2003 - 03:30 pm
Hi Ginny and Jonathan, I ordered my copy of the book. I am embarrassed to admit my lack of knowledge about Ghandi. I have always wanted to know more about him, just never took the time. For some reason, when I think of Ghandi, I think of fasting, and simplicity does come to mind.
I am looking forward to studying the other links. Did he ever travel outside of India? I know no one will laugh at my lack of knowledge. Was he assassinated? I have many questions.
He did believe in nonviolence, right?? I am anxious for the discussion to begin. What a nice way to follow Ben Franklin.
Ginny
August 17, 2003 - 08:43 am
Jonathan! An omen!! Yes yes you are right, this will probably be one of the most controversial discussions ever, let's not hold back: when Ella says it's the most unusual book she's ever read, she may not mean that positively hahahaha we will say ALL!
Hats, yes yes, you are so totally right on, yes.
We'll get to those things at a level you'll never forget either.
One thing or a couple of things we might want to consider: Dr. Kaul (author of the new book Reporting the Raj which I hope to also bring here also) (and have you all read Ruskin? I'm not sure what Gandhi is talking about...but I MUST not begin now!!) Anyway, Dr, Kaul says that Gandhi's mother was extremely religious and herself did religious fasts quite a bit throughout his childhood so he came by it honestly. And so much more but there's no use starting to discuss this fascinating man three months early but once you read him, everything else looks.....er....fake?
THIS one will be one for the books, so glad you're with us, Jonathan, and Hats!
ginny
Marvelle
August 17, 2003 - 03:40 pm
ELLA and GINNY, may I join this discussion? Gandhi has a special place in my heart and I'd love to learn more about this Great Soul.Marvelle
Ella Gibbons
August 18, 2003 - 07:48 am
Hello, Marvelle! Of course, what a good group this is going to be and what a book, I can imagine a lot of differing views and each of them will be right, the man is a marvel of contradictions.
I watched the movie (two cassettes) the other night and I won't say much at this time except he had no "fashion sense" - hahahaha
Didn't care at all for his "bloomer" or whatever he called it and being out in the hot sun all the time with little clothes on it's a wonder he didn't get melonomas. Two people I know have had them and surgery was required and some chemotherapy - they are something to avoid!
Ginny
August 18, 2003 - 09:24 am
Marvelle, fabulous, as Ella says, so glad to have you, we'll so enjoy this discussion!
Ella I love your "mass of contradictions" and "bloomers," are you actually saying Gandhi wore bloomers? Honestly, Ella will keep us All straight, bloomers. Honestly hahaahahah
Jonathan
August 18, 2003 - 10:37 am
Not wanting to be contradictory, quite yet...
Bless you, Marvelle, for seeing the Great Soul in this bloomin' fastin' fakir. Fakir was W Churchill's word for him. Meant to be derogatory, but as WC must have known a fascinating type. The fasting...this is new Ginny...an acquired habit, and not politically motivated? It makes me shudder to imagine the diapered infant at the breast being told by his mother: sorry, my little saint, today we're fasting. Somewhere in this there must be a key to his unique destiny.
only faking...
Ginny
August 18, 2003 - 11:38 am
hahaahah HAHAHA Ah Jonathan, how I lit up when I saw your name, you...you...fakir you! hahahahahaa HAHAHAAH THIS will be, not only one of the most controversial discussions we've ever had (no holds barred, say what you think)(as if anybody could stop Ella hahaha) but also one of the most enjoyable...we can all learn a LOT.
ginny
Persian
August 18, 2003 - 05:49 pm
I see that I came to this discussion relatively late, so am not quite sure why Jonathan is being called a Fakir (Arabic: beggar), but I'm sure it's intended in a jolly way. A discussion of the Mahatma will indeed be interesting. I'll look forward to it.
GINNY - I'm truly glad you had an opportunity to participate in a summer session at Oxford. Several years ago, two Oxford Orientalists were on a research tour in the metropolitan Washington DC area and presented a "mini-seminar" on the British Raj. Quite intriguing, especially for those of us who have lived, worked and studied in the region.
Ginny
August 19, 2003 - 06:51 am
Welcome, Mahlia, you are, au contraire, not only not late, but early: this discussion will not commence until December so you've plenty of time.
Yes, fakir was intended (perhaps poorly), AS humor, a play, you might say, on words (I thought it was Roosevelt who called Gandhi a "half naked fakir" apparently it was Churchill) but either way, it's part of the literature, and so is Jonathan's very subtle wit. hahaah Which I may not be able to equal, but that does not stop me from trying. hahahahaa
If visiting Oxford professors are of interest, I must just mention that Dr. Kaul, (author of the new book Reporting the Raj), who taught The Rise and Fall of the British Empire in India, the course I just took, herself an Indian and a PhD from Oxford, will be presenting a two week course on the same subject for the Smithsonian in 2004 and she is beyond excellent, if anybody is interested, you would not regret one minute of her time.
Welcome to the discussion, it should be fabulous beyond belief. I must just also mention the...if you will... companion discussion, a prequel, Freedom at Midnight, a story of Indian independence, which will begin November 1, led by Tiger Tom, who served in the
American Embassies in Pakistan and
India. A very turbulent time with a million perceptions and voices.
I also want to mention that I hope to invite here a person who witnessed the partitioning of East Pakistan as a child and whose memories are quite horrific, he has a different slant on Gandhi and we will want all slants and all opinions, I hope to be able to encourage (read: beg) him, the more voices we have here, the better our all over picture will be.
Welcome, ALL, don't miss this one!
ginny
ALF
August 19, 2003 - 12:44 pm
My book is en route.
Éloïse De Pelteau
August 19, 2003 - 05:24 pm
I definitely will participate in this discussion when it starts. I have seen the movie, and will try and locate the other two videos. Thanks for proposing it Ginny and Ella.
Eloïxd
Ella Gibbons
August 20, 2003 - 06:25 pm
OH WONDERFUL! ANDY AND ELOISE ARE JOINING US! WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU AND YOU ARE IN FOR A FEW SURPRISING STATEMENTS!
I'm more than halfway through reading the book and I think about some of his statements as I wander around the house and attempt to water a large seeded area in our yard - which due to 89 degrees of daytime heat is not progressing very well.
It will be winter, deep and cold winter, when we all will be discussing this and the phrase "extraordinary perspectives" describes Gandhi's viewpoints very well. Are there any males among us? I don't think Hugh Heffner would appreciate Gandhi's viewpoints very well! hahaha
ALF
August 22, 2003 - 12:00 pm
I loved the Ben Kingsley movie. Are there others?
Ginny
August 23, 2003 - 09:19 am
Welcome, Eloise, and Andrea (ALF)!! How exciting to see you both here!!
An interesting question, Andrea, on the Gandhi movies, surely there are more than the one Ben Kingsley (which we will lend out here), there must be documentaries, etc., but last night I was pondering your question when lo and behold! On the screen in front of me was a "Bollywood" production called Lagaan: Once Upon a Time in India, made in 2001. It's a quintessential Indian movie which I became addicted to in England, (Orbit refers to it as a Romance). Ella and I saw Bombay Dreams on stage in London and IT, too, was about "Bollywood," a term that I now find was misdefined for me and seems to refer to the Indian film industry. (I love the feeling of entering new territory with new discoveries to be made, especially since a billion people already seem to know about it).
At any rate, the movies seem to have the same ingredients: gorgeous women, who break into song (they all do) at the drop of a hat, fabulous production numbers, a romance or two and the Indians bonding together to foil whatever evil there is, they are totally addictive, something like the Egyptian soaps in Rome and Munich.
But what makes this one interesting is the backdrop of the East India Company, it has an historical bent, and while you could not recommend IT historically, for interest about India I think you might want to see it. Am still trying to get the Chess Players, (the version you want is this one: The Chess Players/Shatranj ke
khilari. Directed by Satyajit Ray India,1977.English/Hindi)--it's actually in Urdu with subtitles-- if you can't get it (if you can please let us know) you may want to start with A Passage to India, which does show the problems of the Raj in India but which is nothing like the book in terms of the Indians, then you'd want to watch Gandhi, the movie, with Ben Kingsley's amazing, incredible performance (it won every Oscar there was that year and rightfully so). SO! A lot of new things to struggle with, what fun.
Lagaan: Once Upon a Time in India is coming on again on the 28th at 2:30 and 5:30 pm on STZC, whatever channel that is, and I'll tape it in case any of you would like to experience the atmosphere and maybe the rest of the movie IS historically signifigant. If you've not seen a "Bollywood" production, it would interest you from that standpoint alone. hahahaaha I'm delighted to find these things on the television!
ginny
Ginny
August 23, 2003 - 04:49 pm
Here's a description of The Chess Players which also stars Richard Attenborough, after all this fuss you probably think it's as good as Gandhi: it's not, but it shows something important about Indian history.
TigerTom
August 23, 2003 - 08:56 pm
Ginny,
IN the Indian movies you have seen do the females
break into a Dance when there is a love scene indicated?
That used to be the standard on the Subcontinent. Couldn't
show love scenes so the would have Dancing. I once had a
chance to see a Dance scene being filmed in Pakistan.
Interesting. Also watched a scene from a Costume epic
being filmed in Dacca. Director never seemed satisfied.
Must have burned up a lot of money in film in both
scenes.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
August 24, 2003 - 06:29 am
Tom, I am not sure, (didn't see enough of the movie!) What an interesting point! I will tape it on the 28th and watch it carefully, but what I saw never had anything resembling a love scene!!?? just the dancing as you say, and it's billed a "Romance."
I came in on it when they were talking and suddenly they all burst into song and began to dance, and it was mezmerizing, and now the thought that they are doing this as a genre or in place of love scene in 2001 is fascinating, I find their movies fascinating, am quite addicted, they do seem to follow patterns.
The director never being satisfied rings a bell, too, for several reasons, one of which is The Chess Players which also starred Richard Attenbouough as noted and which the director spent a fortune on (I guess it's hard to get subtelty right: there's NO dancing in that one)
And for another reason also: I do envy you your watching them film a move in two places! While at Hampton Court in England a few weeks ago I was able (thanks to Ella who found a good spot to view) to see them filming the new movie Vanity Fair with Reese Witherspoon, which will be out in the spring of 2004, it was amazing, just incredible! They stand around ALL day in place, on horseback or whatever, in the broiling sun and heat, taking off their heavy wool coats and burning up when suddenly (I don't need to tell YOU this but others might not know) somebody has said something, a drum starts beating and whole armies are on the move and clatter by, the populace in the (FOG!!??!!) put out by smudge pots on a hot July day looks totally real, and it's truly one of the most exciting things I think I ever saw, took a million photos, want to put some of this in the Community Center, but I can see, can you, the attraction for filmmaking, I wanted to be part of it, too.
The word "Bollywood," which was explained to me as "in Indian movies when they suddenly spring into dancing and singing for no reason like the old Hollywood Bugsy Berkeley films" I think is incorrect, or is it? I wonder if it has another meaning to indicate the Indian Film Industry itself, it sure looks like it on google.
TigerTom
August 24, 2003 - 07:27 am
Ginny,
I have no idea of what is going on in modern Indian
movies, but 40 years ago Sub-Continent movies were
quite prudish and could only suggest things. So,
the Dancing signaled to the people seeing the movies
different things such as rapture, kissing, etc.
I guess that in our movies way back when there
were signals to the audience suggesting things that
could not be shown.
On another note: in Freedom at Midnight, the author
says that the Women of Bombay (where Bollywood is located)
are among the most beautiful in the world. I must
say I agree with him. That certainly shows up in
Indian movies.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
August 25, 2003 - 03:46 pm
Well I believe after what I've seen he's pretty close, they are certainly gorgeous, amazingly so, at least the ones in the movies which I have seen. In fact, a viewer of their film and television shows might be forgiven for believing there are NO homely women in India, I don't believe I've ever seen one on film or TV, and truly the female stars are incredibly gorgeous.
One really neat thing I found out this summer is for instance, how you pronounce Calcutta correctly?
It's not Cal CUT ta, it's CAL cut ta, isn't that neat? YOU knew that, Tom but I didn't.
I hope your being here means you'll read with us too?
Welcome, if so!
I've never been to India and now I really want to go!
ginny
TigerTom
August 25, 2003 - 07:34 pm
Ginny,
Do go to India if for no other reason than the see
the Taj Mahal. It is deteriorating because of all
the pollutants in the air and the fact that the Indian
Government wants the U.N. and the world to pay for its
preservation. The Indian Government is putting very
little in the way of funding for the upkeep of the Taj
which is great pity. It is the most beautiful building
in the world. One should see it in the moonlight to see
it best.
It depends on who is doing the pronouncing. An Indian
will pronounce it one way and an Englishman another
and an American a third way. Even with the Indians
someone from Bengal will pronouce it bit differently than
an Indian from Bombay.
Among the well to do and upper middle class the women
can be and are beautiful. Among the poor the beauty is
gone, due to disease and work, from the females by the
early teens. The children of all classes are very attractive.
Tiger Tom
Éloïse De Pelteau
August 26, 2003 - 07:35 pm
Recently I saw an Indian movie called "Monsoon Wedding" or something. That film takes place in modern India and there is romance, dancing and singing. The plot revolves on several fronts. The future bride has a brief romance with a former beau, which is surprising, a few days before she gets married. A sub plot of pedophily and another with a sub cast servant. It is very well done. The actors are extremely handsome the women pretty. It was interesting how they conduct their plot differently than here.
Françoise my daughter, who has seen many Indian movies says that the ending of Indian films are usually moral and happy. I told her about this discussion hoping that she might join. She likes Seniornet. I would like to be able to discuss the book with her.
After my move, I will find this book.
Eloïse
kiwi lady
August 27, 2003 - 01:04 am
I went into Barnes and Noble - I did several searches for the book to get the price as I just ordered a couple of books today ( my first purchases for a couple of years) and I decided to try and budget it for next month but I could not get a result. Is the book available at Barnes and Noble and if so where did I go wrong in my search? I would really like to be in on this discussion.
Carolyn
Ginny
August 27, 2003 - 09:33 am
Eloise, I am addicted to Indian movies and Egyptian soap operas, how marvelous to learn of your daughter's interest, thank you very much for that additional information, on the 28th when I tape the new one I will watch and see if the end presents a moral, the show Bombay Dreams in London sure did, it was moralistic to the core, actually, about not deserting your roots and those loyal to you, pretty powerful stuff for a musical.
Carolyn, we would love to have you and yes it's on B&N through this link and our own bookstore, but I have an additional copy which I had ordered waiting for me at home and since everybody at Oxford was buying books at Blackwell's I thought well heck it's just a paperback, I'll buy Gandhi HERE and when I read it I will always think of that (so this is my very convoluted way of saying I have an extra copy and you're in New Zealand, would you like it?) hahaahahah I'll put up the link too, hang on.
ginny
ALF
August 27, 2003 - 09:43 am
Ginny
August 27, 2003 - 09:47 am
YAY Andrea, I hope we can keep the smoke down when you read about his homeopathic medical ideas (Andrea is a nurse) or maybe you will agree, this will be fascinating, we all have such different backgrounds, LOVE your tag line above, bet you a lunch after December you are sporting a new one hahahaah a Gandhi one? hahaha I picked up a few more Gandhi books by the way on my trip, have not read them yet but I see they are all available at our B&N SN bookstore (SN gets 7 percent of every sale) they are: Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Gandhi and Words of Gandhi. Here is the link to the book we're reading on the SN B&N page: Gandhi: The Story of My Experiments With Truth
Ginny
August 27, 2003 - 09:49 am
YAY Andrea, I hope we can keep the smoke down when you read about his homeopathic medical ideas (Andrea is a nurse) or maybe you will agree, this will be fascinating, we all have such different backgrounds, LOVE your tag line above, bet you a lunch after December you are sporting a new one hahahaah a Gandhi one? hahaha I picked up a few more Gandhi books by the way on my trip, have not read them yet but I see they are all available at our B&N SN bookstore (SN gets 7 percent of every sale) they are: Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Gandhi and Words of Gandhi. Here is the link to the book we're reading on the SN B&N page: Gandhi: The Story of My Experiments With Truth
And look at this: "Annotation
All royalties earned on this book are paid to the Navajivan Trust, founded by Gandhi, for use in carrying on his work. "
kiwi lady
August 27, 2003 - 11:45 am
Ginny - I would love an extra copy if you have it. You guys are so lucky with your book prices. I drool. However the exchange rate makes the books a lot more expensive for me! A bookie like me lives in the wrong country to indulge my passion! My son came over to change before a function yesterday and when he left told me to look in my cheque book there was a present. He left me $100. Now I am not guilty about the money I spent on two books which were just too expensive for me to buy here and I found in B&N sale. I still saved more than $20 buying them online even with the postage. Hillarys book is $60 NZ here and I got it for about $40 NZ online. I had told Matt I had indulged myself on a couple of books so he might have thought I had gone overboard - hence the present in the chequebook! I was so thrilled.
Carolyn
Ginny
August 27, 2003 - 12:02 pm
Carolyn, what a SWEETHEART of a son, you've done something right! Please email me your address (again!~ I well remember your work for us with the Bookmark Project which we were so thrilled to see our bookmarks in New Zealand) and asap I will get it to you in the mail!
Well when you come to America you can take home boxes and ship crates of books! hahahahaah I sent two huge heavy boxes back from London, when you think about it, it's ridiculous, the passion for books.
ginny
TigerTom
August 27, 2003 - 03:08 pm
Ginny,
If you will excuse my saying so but: at our age the
passion for books is one of the few passions we
can satisfy completly.
Tiger Tom
kiwi lady
August 27, 2003 - 05:40 pm
Hear hear Tom. I was so excited about buying my first on line books in so long I had them sent airmail! Very expensive! Only a bookie can understand our passion for the written word.
Carolyn
Ginny
August 29, 2003 - 01:02 pm
Oh I do have the biggest news in here, the most exciting thing, you will wonder if I've lost my mind, much exciting news, and it has to do with India: stay tuned, stay tuned!!!!
Jonathan
August 29, 2003 - 08:16 pm
ALF
August 29, 2003 - 11:08 pm
Well bloody d*** woman, what is it? I know----
He came to you in a vision last night, told you to renounce your treasures on earth, kick off your sandals and what????? Go to the river , give up milk, take a hydrobath??? WHAT IS IT?
Ella Gibbons
August 30, 2003 - 11:48 am
Ginny, for heavens' sake, do tell, how dare you leave us hanging like this - I bet she has an authority on Gandhi coming in to our discussion - possibly the lecturer in Oxford, or to be correct, I should say in Christchurch!
Something like that, I bet!
ALF
August 30, 2003 - 11:48 am
She's ignoring us Ella.
Lou2
August 30, 2003 - 12:05 pm
Alf, Ella.... I know, she's waiting for the drum rolling!!! Now, how in the world would I write a drum roll??? LOL
Lou
Jonathan
August 30, 2003 - 02:00 pm
And I was up until four o'clock last night, glued to my computer. Waiting for the 'news'!! Now I remember. Once before she went missing for five days. Came back saying she had lost her notes!!! Her desktop must be a mess.
Hats
August 30, 2003 - 02:18 pm
Ginny, just whisper your exciting news. None of us will spread the news. We are very good at keeping a secret.
bluebird24
August 30, 2003 - 05:05 pm
I would like to join, too. Does anyone have a copy of this they do not want? I live far from a library. I cannot pay to buy it.
Ella Gibbons
August 31, 2003 - 01:53 pm
WELCOME BLUEBIRD!
No, I don't know anyone who would have an extra copy, I'm getting mine from the library. You can go to any of the used books sites on the Internet and find a copy for around $9. Try Powell's Books.com. There are others, just look in Google search engine for used book sites and you may find one for $5.
Good luck and I hope you can join us!!!
jane
August 31, 2003 - 04:55 pm
Blubird: You might also call your library and ask about Interlibrary Loan and having the book sent to you, since you live far from the facility. Depending on your local library financing, there might be a small charge of a $1.00 or so to get the ILL (InterLibraryLoan) and perhaps you'd be expected to pay postage to and from your local library to your home.
georgehd
September 1, 2003 - 08:01 am
Though it seems a long way off, I will probably join you in December. I will order the book now so I can pick it up when I get to Baltimore in a few weeks.
Ginny
September 1, 2003 - 08:24 am
GEORGE!! How marvelous, how good to see you here, hopefully you can get the book!!
Bluebird, we're delighted to welcome you here, I only wish I did have another copy but the extra one I had is gone. Oh I do hope you can get the book!!!! Let us know how you come out??
Oh golly, you all are so funny, now you make me feel really intimidated hahahaha I do have news, but YOU may not consider it important but let me ask you THIS?
now then you saw my excited announcement and you wonder WHAT and why ? (I have not been teasing we have had awful storms here) but... but....Could I ask you something?
What, to you, WOULD constitute that feeling of excitement? In other words, what COULD we bring here that you would think was of the greatest value? I really want to know, will you all answer that one?
I see Ella mentioning Dr. Kaul from Oxford whose new book Reporting the Raj is just out, sure I can ask her but she's a "Don" at St. Andrews where Prince William goes and she is a big deal VIP, I am not sure she is available to come in, but I will write and ask her. I will likewise ask a man who was present when East Pakistan was created and lived on the border and who has horrific memories of that happening if he will share them with us. He may not.
Neither of those was my big news, but they are big enough?
But hist, please tell me what YOU would ideally want to add to your glorious customary dialogue in this discussion and I will try my best to procure it?
Try to think what each of you might bring here for the others, as well.
Finally I want to try something new
and it may not work, but I found at Oxford it's the way they do it and I like it and would like to try it out on you all: you're Gandhi Guiinea Pigs!
Maybe only one day of the week we will try an Oxford Round Table? That is I'll bring here a passage and then we'll go "around the table" and solicit your views ON that passage ON that day, we'll take turns and go in order, it's an amazing thing when it works (it took us a week to even get in the swing of it but it's amazing when it works) and I think we can devote one day of each week to it, I have no idea what we'll call it.
now on the good news, you will probably be disappointed, let me see what your expectations were first? hahaahha
ginny
GingerWright
September 1, 2003 - 01:40 pm
You teaser!
kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 07:08 pm
Just the other night on the BBC world I saw thousands of Pakistanis migrating from India to Pakistan before the date of Partition. It came in at midnight. You would not believe the sight. It was a sea of humanity!
Persian
September 1, 2003 - 07:13 pm
GINNY - IMO, A Round Table would be quite interesting. It's an important method in the classroom (especially with advanced students) to not only create a mutually respectful environment for intelligent discussion, but to have the participants present divergent views in a respctful environment, and encourages "thinking outside the box." Often this type of forum allows stereotypes to dissipate and one is able to view the topic through the eyes (and mind) of others. A Round Table is especially attractive in an environment where the participants are from widely different backgrounds or not specialists on the topic, but have given sensitive thought to the topic and their comments, as well as being open and willing to listen to the discourse of others.
RE your question about what we would like to see you bring to this discussion: I'd enjoy the participation of guest visitors (if that's your intention)who have worked with or been affiliated with the foundations established to continue Gandhi's work. And without expecting that your Oxford professor would be able to participate, let me mention that there are stellar academics within the USA who could serve as guest visitors on occasion. A professor emeritus may have more time than someone who still has classroom duties, but there certainly are many excellent scholars to contact.
Another suggestion would be someone from the Library of Congress who is familiar with Gandhi's work, the region in which his work was most successful and an individual who interacts regularly with scholars focusing on Gandhi's efforts. Several years ago, when I was in the Washington diplomatic sector, I arranged a Round Table at the Embassy of India. The officials there were absolutely marvelous in their cooperation and spent an enormous amount of time preparing and hosting us. The Embassy might be another resource for you.
kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 09:27 pm
I can't wait to get my book. Nicky has read a lot about Ghandi and he is one of her heroes together with Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. I am going to insert a piece from Martin Luther Kings autobiography which gives his impressions of Ghandi. Ghandi was his inspiration for the way he approached the struggle for civil rights in the USA. I will wait til we start the discussion to do this.
Carolyn
Ginny
September 2, 2003 - 05:31 am
Ginger, hahaaha.
Mahlia, would you be willing to try to see who you could get to come in here and participate with us?
I think Professor Kaul's new book will be very important in this field and I think we can use all the input we can have, would you try to arrange/ interest some people you know in participating in the discussion?
Carolyn, thank you for those thoughts, I am looking forward to what everybody wants to bring to this table, if we all bring something (even if it's our interest) it will be a feast!
After all this, my news may be tame, but news it is! hahahaha
We have a number of movies on video tape to lend out for this endeavour: they just are not in the heading yet, pending more description.
I am actively seeking a movie not available in the states (or anywhere else, I fear, I may have to write Professor Kaul and see if she'll lend it) but after that you might want to view (or read) A Passage to India (the film is different from the book, significantly so) and then the film Gandhi which we will lend out, another recent "Bollywood" film on India made last year: Lagaan: My Dream of India, which is enroute showing interesting background of India in 2002, and finally!!
Finally!! I am very excited to announce you will have the opportunity, if you like, to view Juggernaut, which is a stunning documentary (don't get the one with Omar Sharif, nothing against him but we need the documentary) only 28 minutes long, concerning what Indira Gandhi did with money given her for relief: she spent it on an atomic bomb.
The film has no words, as I remember it, and shows the progression of this atomic warhead, pulled by hundreds of Indians by hand, on foot across the desert, just like the Egyptians assembled the pyramids, which launched India into the nuclear age.
It's stunning, visually, because of the contrasts and is normally only shown in colleges, and WE have it to lend out, and you will never forget it. Andrea has a wonderful definition of Juggernaut, will you post it here, Andrea? That is also in the mail and will be arriving soon, I originally saw it as part of a graduate coursre in Indian Literature and have never forgotten it, and once you see it, you won't either!!
I am delighted that our small efforts here attracted and allowed us to get a copy of it, that's a MAJOR step up for our Book discussions, and I'm very proud of it, and I hope you are, too, and I hope you will want to view it.
For an overview of the times in which Gandhi lived, the movie is superb, but you may also want to attend Tiger Tom's discussion on Freedom at Midnight, about what happened when Britain gave India back her independence. These two discussions are tied together, and the key players are in both, this one, by using Juggernaut, brings India into the Nuclear Age, where she is now a player, and will allow us to come full circle in our talks, so don't miss Tiger Tom's discussion (the book he's leading is one of the ones recommended at Oxford, and Tom himself, I'm sure you know, served 7 years in India and Pakistan and knows his stuff)! An extraordinary opportunity for all our readers, and I look forward to whatever or whoever you can bring to the table, let's have a FEAST!!
ginny
Persian
September 2, 2003 - 05:42 am
GINNY - if this were my area of expertise I'd be delighted to suggest colleagues and scholars in the field who could be contacted for their comments. However, it is not.
Therefore, I'd strongly suggest that you seek recommendations from your Oxford Professor, stipulating perhaps that you'd like the names of colleagues at some of the Ivy League institutions in the USA. Surely, she would be willing to share this information with you as a former student. She may also be able to recommend other Americans (like yourself) who have attended her seminars and would be willing to participate in this discussion.
And perhaps Tom would be able to suggest former Foreign Service colleagues (who may now be active members of the Retired Foreign Service Association) with whom he is in touch, who could serve as guest participants.
Ginny
September 2, 2003 - 05:46 am
Terrific ideas, Mahlia, thanks. I'm not sure if you saw an eariler post of mine but I myself am taking a course in Indian history this Fall, taught by 5 professors and one local person, (2 of whom are Indians) and perhaps I can entice a couple of them in, worth a try?? I also have feelers out at the Libary here: the course starts next week, what fun? I don't think anybody could ever know all of it, there are so many sides to each coin, a many sided coin.
ginny
TigerTom
September 2, 2003 - 07:02 am
Mahlia, ginny,
I cut off ALL ties with anyone connected to the FS
when I retired other than one or two close friends
who know squat about the Indian Sub-continent.
So I would be of NO help there at all.
Tiger Tom
Persian
September 2, 2003 - 09:18 am
GINNY - There you go, 6 prospective guests right in front of the classroom! You're set. How could any professor worth his/her reputation not be intrigued to be "featured" on an international forum like SN with stellar participants who offer stimulating comments for thought-provoking discourse.
TOM: Copy-cat! I, too, found that it was a vast relief to "disengage" from many of my former colleagues.
ALF
September 2, 2003 - 11:16 am
A forum such as you've described would be wonderful, especially once a week. As Mahlia put it so well there are so many divergent backgrounds and experiences to enlighten us. I am certainly not a specialists on the topic, but I do promise to give consideration to the topics as well as the comments.
It's just so hard for me to believe this "Juggernaut" concept happening in India. The definition of Juggernaut that we spoke of is from a Sanskirt word {lord of the world.}
n. A massive advancing force or object that crushes anything in its path.
Amazing, they moved it across the deserts, by hand-- this massive, advancing object.
Jonathan
September 2, 2003 - 11:18 am
Ginny - thanks for the surprising news. And here I was already preparing myself physically (I'm already up to three hours), and spiritually to join Gandhi in his FASTS!
I'm making a note of all the suggestions being made to enhance the discussion, although at the moment I have none of my own to make. Still getting organized. Rummaging around in my book attic for anything on India. Lo and behold! Katherine Mayo's Mother India! Published in 1927. Mid-career for Ghandi. My copy is part of the 34th printing in 1931.
One can judge Gandhi's importance in Indian affairs by the better part of a column that he gets in the index...on the most surprising matters. Eg, see p249, for G 'on the sin of feeding stray dogs.' Pages 393-4, 'on the wickedness of railways.' On p166, G 'calls Government 'vile beyond description.' P75, for G 'on the vicious Hindu attitude toward women.' P29, 'on artificial devices to overcome impotence'! P89, G 'discredited.'
How so?! Let's take a look.
' "We want no more of Gandhi's doctrines," one conspicuous Indian politician told me; "Gandhi is a deluded man." '
Farther along on the page we read this: 'The number of widows in India is, according to the latest published official computation, 26,834,838.'
My question is: how many of those poor guys died a natural death?
I'm going to look for the film here. We have a little India here in Toronto, several hundred thousand strong.
Jonathan
September 2, 2003 - 11:31 am
Tiger Tom
Do you have an opinion on the usefulness of J K Galbraith's Ambassador's Journal as background material apropos either of the two discussions? Another book on my 'unread' shelf.
TigerTom
September 2, 2003 - 06:54 pm
Jonthan,
Never read the book. Hard to say without having
read the book.
you must remember that an Ambassador's view of a
country is very different than that of one of his
staff. The Ambassador travels in different and rarified
circles compared to his staff. Also, the talks he has
with the leaders in the country that he is accredited
to are usually only for a few ears such as the Secretary,
the President and a few others that the President wants
in the know. At least until some of it is released to
the public.
I have an idea that the Journal has been edited for
content so to speak. What the Ambassador may have
felt about India, the Indians and high ranking people
he met there he probably kept to himself.
Remember a Bulgarian Ambassador to one country who
outwardly loved the people, the culture, everything
about the country he was accredited to in private he
despised everyone in the country and everything about it.
Tiger Tom
kiwi lady
September 2, 2003 - 08:18 pm
I found that some of the retired Ambassadors from both Britain and America gave very sound impressions of Middle Eastern Culture in the lead up to the Iraqi war. I did not hear one of them say he was in favor of unilateral action or even immediate action. I found the interviews fascinating. I could not understand why Tony Blair or Bush did not listen to them. Those things which they predicted did come to pass. The Ambassadors came both from the liberal and the conservative side of the political spectrum.
georgehd
September 3, 2003 - 05:43 am
Ginny, I find your proposal of a once a week discussion very intriguing. We would be focused. I had eagerly participated in the Religion and Evil discussion but it lacked any direction and was finally closed. Too bad as the book was important.
Mahlia glad to see your interest in this book. I will have it in two weeks.
Ginny
September 3, 2003 - 06:51 am
George, won't it be fun? And if it does not work well online we are open to other approaches, let's pull out all the stops on this one!!
(Let me tell you about stops? At Oxford they have organ concerts in the Town Hall at lunch. You have never SEEN such a town hall. It's incredible, I must bring a photo here, very ornate, baroque galleries all around and the biggest organ you ever saw in the front of it. WELL, Sir, the visiting organists play but an assistant organist stands behind and roars in and pulls out the stops, too? I have never seen that? Two men having to pull out stops, have you all seen that? So many stops!
Jonathan Jonathan, get out ALL those old musty books and bring them here, one word from their ancient lips will be more words than we would have seen otherwise, let's pull out ALL the stops.
Tom I went to bed thinking of your Ambassador remarks, how different it must seem when you're involved there, how idealistic we are on the outside, what fun this will be!
Carolyn, yet another viewpoint and an important one, I learned at Oxford when it comes to India you have to take ALL the voices, all of them and only at the end, when you have ALL of the facts your poor brain (in my case) can possibly hold, only at the end will you come to your own personal conclusion. Thank you for adding that voice!
George, the Books on Religion discussion, just getting on its feet, was derailed when the Discussion Leader, our Ann went in for simple surgery for gall bladder and ended up on a respirator, but by George (hahaha) she has fought back, is still in rehab, and is anxious to rejoin the group and I know they want your ideas about direction, please never be shy about expressing any directive ideas in ANY of our discussions, especially the Gandhi, we have 7 days in which to experiment with new things!@ hahahahaha
now Jonathan, can or will you explain about the feeding the stray dogs or had we better wait for the discussion, we better wait, but that does not sound Gandhi ish....or does it? That man.....no no we better not start now, we'll have nothing left in our lunch sacks by December!
TigerTom
September 3, 2003 - 06:52 am
Kiwi Lady,
Not surprising. Ambassador's are treated like
messenger boys these days. When the world was
not linked as it is today Ambassadors were sent
out with specific instructions on certain items.
They would corresponde my Diplomatic Mail or
if really important by coded telegram. When
they retuned to the U.S. they would meet and
report to the President. They would be listened
to as they were the ones who knew what was going
on and the President didn't, then.
These days in the age of "Shuttle Diplomacy"
(started by Kissenger) Ambassadors simply are
shoved to one side. They will accompany the Secretary
to a meeting but only to introduce the Secretary.
Tiger Tom
ALF
September 3, 2003 - 07:11 am
feeding of the stray dogs? In India, where many are starving? Surely you jest.
kiwi lady
September 3, 2003 - 12:13 pm
My DIL Karens parents have lived in India for many years. Her dad is a Power Consultant and works on designing and supervising the construction of power plants throughout India. They have seen much of India and they really love it. They have many examples of Indian handcrafts and they really are incredible. Karen has a huge framed tapestry her parents brought back and it truly is a work of art.
Carolyn
Ginny
September 3, 2003 - 12:33 pm
Carolyn!!!!! Do they still live there? If so will you invite them in here? Will you ask them to ask around and find out of anybody they could talk to was present at the partitioning of Wast Pakistan and India? Or who was alive when the Raj had its last days? That had any connection or knowledge of those turbulent times? That happened in 1947, so they would be in their middle to late 60's depending on how old they were in 1947 but they may recall something!
For those who have not read any Indian history, the British, when they decided to withdraw the Raj from India, created West Pakistan for the Muslims out of the upper left hand corner of India and East Pakistan (Bengladesh) out of the sort of bottom/ mid right side of India, that's a VERY simplistic explanation, sorry, and here's one site which may or not be good, you be the judge, but here's what they say in sum:
British and Indian leaders decided that the only solution to the conflict was a partition that separated the continent into Hindu and Muslim states. In 1947, the Indian subcontinent became the independent nations of India and Pakistan. Pakistan was made up of two regions: West Pakistan on the Indus River plain, and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), more than 1,100 miles away. Important parts of what was once considered India were now in other nations. The Indus River, for which the subcontinent is named, became part of Pakistan after the partition.
Taken from Partitioning of India
THIS is what the book Freedom at Midnight is about and it sets the stage for the tremendous stuff Gandhi did. I have gotten to the place where I don't trust ANY site without .edu in it? However I was in a hurry, and wanted to put this up for what it is worth, that was NOT so long ago, Carolyn, are your DIL's family online and do you think they might come in or find somebody who was there at that time for us to talk to??
Whee?
Lou2
September 3, 2003 - 12:56 pm
Reading Freedom at Midnight and looking through Gandhi it looks as though the autobiography was written early and was finished before the events of FaM???? Is that right? I'm reading too many to start G's right now too... just from browsing the Gandhi, I wondered????
Lou
Ginny
September 3, 2003 - 01:11 pm
Oh wonderful point, Lou, wonderful. Yes, yes the autobiography sets out Gandhi's own philosophies which he then followed and explains him. Freedom at Midnight and Gandhi the movie show what he did with them, I wonder if one of his later books talks about his own reactions, for instance I know that the Punjab Massacres (General Dyer) forever turned him away from the British, wonder what volume of the 100 books he wrote speaks to THAT one? He reminds me of some of the saints. Not quite mortification of the flesh but certainly subjugation, it will be interesting to ....maybe some of you could....read other books and be ready to come in here (after all we do have three months) and quote what he said, say, about the Partitioning that Freedom does not say?
We might go so far as to get up a list from which you all might quote so that we don't all read the same auxiliary texts, (tho there's no sin in that, either)... I have two more books on Gandhi on the way, but they don't pertain to his reactions to history, I think you are right: and we need something more!
And THAT way when we begin to go around the table, we can add whatever we have gleaned, nobody can read 200 books but we might need to before we're thru? hahaah Collectively?
ginny
Lou2
September 3, 2003 - 01:39 pm
The Daughter has a biography, but I'll have to wait till she comes home... if I can get these 2 read... library books and m0ving hard while I can still have them.... I'll read hers also... this weekend, I'll post the title.
Gandhi has surprised me so much in FaM.... I guess I always thought non-violent meant "gentle"!!!!
Lou
Ginny
September 3, 2003 - 01:52 pm
Super, many thanks, do you mean one of his daughters or Indira Gandhi, Nerhu's daughter (guess how old I was when I found THAT one out? Hint: a month ago) haahahaha That's OK, better late than!
Lou2
September 3, 2003 - 06:11 pm
Ginny... I gotta' read my posts better and think about what I'm writing.... Our daughter has a copy of a biography of G. but I've been thinking I'm not sure how valuable other folks ideas about him would be as opposed to what he's written... I may look into his writings before I commit... may want to read something else by G, rather than about him.... Sorry!
Lou
kiwi lady
September 3, 2003 - 06:32 pm
Karens parents still live in India and they were not there at the time of partition. Previous to living in India they lived in Botswana and Capetown.
Carolyn
Marvelle
September 3, 2003 - 11:23 pm
LOU, I think Gandhi is pretty candid about his weaknesses but he highlights what he thinks is important to his development as a human being. I've decided to read a good biography or two about Gandhi which may help fill in any gaps left by the Autobiography and which give different perspectives. Maybe too an additional history book.Marvelle
Ginny
September 4, 2003 - 05:20 am
Lou, apparently I was not clear, sorry. What I meant to try to say was Gandhi wrote 100 books? We are only going to read one, the, as he puts it, Story of My Experiements With Truth. This one,as you point out, (I'm not finished it, yet, I can't seem to read Gandhi in a rush) does not cover the Partitioning (which celebrations Gandhi refused to attend). What I was suggesting is that others read, if they like, in addition, one of his own books in his own words and bring his own words here so we can hear what HE had to say on it, not some other commentator. I am sorry I was not clear, hopefully you will join us!
Carolyn, if Karen's parents live in India still (what a serendipitous thing) would you be willing to ask them to inquire among the people they know to find out of any of their aquaintences remember 1947 and what happened and what THEIR own opinion might be? I think that would be fascinating. I hope to get, as I said earlier, another eye witness account from the Western Pakistan border, but again, hope springs eternal. hahahaha
Marvelle, I love Gandhi's candor, just love it, we'll concentrate on what HE said, and if others have things of contrast to bring to the table we want to hear them, too, India is too vast not to listen to every viewpoint.
Talk a bout a million souls in the naked city, how many millions does India have?
ginny
georgehd
September 4, 2003 - 05:37 am
Ginny, I am sorry to hear about Ann's hospitalization and hope that she is on the mend.
There seems to be so much material on Gandhi that it is difficult to choose another book as a companian to the autobiography. any suggestions from anyone in the group? I have read one biography of Gandhi and I cannot remember which one it was - probably twenty years ago. The links given above may be sufficient for me.
Persian
September 4, 2003 - 06:35 am
GINNY - I, too, was sorry to learn recently from another DL of Ann's health problems and then to read your very detailed explanations here. I've sent her a personal note.
Isn't there a pool of substitutes upon which we could have called to step in for her in the Books on Religion discussion? I'm still vague about the arrangements.
jane
September 4, 2003 - 06:39 am
Some facts about India from the World Factbook put out by the CIA. Page was updated Aug. 1, 2003 and figures are said to be generally as of Jan. 1, 2003:
Population: 1,049,700,118 (July 2003 est.)
Age Structure:
0-14 years: 32.2% (male 173,973,350; female 163,979,116)
15-64 years: 63% (male 342,620,712; female 319,259,867)
65 years and over: 4.8% (male 25,281,756; female 24,585,317) (2003 est.)
Lots more facts on/about India here:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
Hats
September 4, 2003 - 06:46 am
I like the writing style of Gandhi's autobiography. Once the book came in the mail I felt afraid that I would not understand it. So far, I have read the introduction.
While reading the introduction, I thought of Mother Theresa. I don't know why, but her name popped into my mind. Did she and Gandhi have the same philosophies, follow the same "truths"? Gandhi mentions in the introduction that his number one goal in life is to "see God." Did Mother Theresa and Gandhi have different religious values? That is one of my questions.
Also, I would like to know more about the days Gandhi spent in prison. What did he write? How long were his stays in prison? etc.
Then, I want to know everything because my information about Gandhi is almost zero. I have been spelling his name wrong too!
Lou2
September 4, 2003 - 07:51 am
Boy, Hats, I think you've hit the nail on the head!!! I'm in the same boat you are... I "knew" little about Gandhi... and am finding out what I thought I "knew" was wrong!!! Isn't it great to come here and not only enjoy ourselves, but learn while we're doing it????
Lou
Hats
September 4, 2003 - 07:58 am
Lou, yes, yes, yes!!!!
Persian
September 4, 2003 - 09:01 am
Here's a link to a short book which eloquently tells of Gandhi's work among not only Indians, but his outward reach to those of the Muslim faith and his non-violent struggles with govt. officials. Gandhi and Badshah Khan (whose name is the featured title of the book), a Pashtun leader of the Northwest Frontier, worked closely together for many years to achieve their mutual goals of peace for their respective peoples.
The background in this text helps to "place" various elements of Gandhi's personal life (and struggles) and to prepare the general reader, who may not have a strong familiarity with Gandhi's life, philosophy or his missions.
http://store.globalexchange.org/badshah.html
Lou2
September 4, 2003 - 04:22 pm
I found 2 books at amazon today (sorry, didn't look at BandN, could be there also) 1) Penguin Gandhi Reader, includes "Hindu-Muslin Unity, Partition and Independence" that sounded right on target to me. 2) Ghandi" Hind Swarajer and other writings. Hind Swarajar translates to Home Rule, they say. A third one Selected Political Writings might be promising, but from the info on the site I couldn't tell if it had independence or partition info or not???
I thought either of these might add to the autobiography with info from his later writings????
Lou
Ginny
September 5, 2003 - 06:37 am
YIKES!!! (What's Urdu for YIKES?? hahahaha) Lou was right, holy cow!! I just finished Gandhi last night (got side tracked reading another book of his sayings) and Lou was dead on right, Gandhi is NOT the SEQUEL to Freedom, it's the PREQUEL, and I quote:
The time has now come to bring these chapters to a close.
My life from this point onward has been so public that there is hardly anyting about it that people do not know.
Holy cow, heck yeah there are things about it people do not know in 2003, and we need to reverse engines here and read Gandhi FIRST, see all the movies and then attend Freedom at Midnight!!!!! Reverse engines. Now George, please do not think me disorganized for not having read the book till now, but it does appear this approach is the best one, and since we're still in Proposed stage, I do think we need to move Gandhi ahead of Freedom! Is there any person here who cannot switch and read Gandhi in November and Freedom in December? I apologize for this switch, but you can see the man himself says he is a PREQUEL and I believe it will make more sense to do it this way. Tom agrees to the change and will offer Freedom in December, I will write all of you and be sure you can attend in November.
Mahlia and Lou, thank you for those additional readings, yes, they look fabulous!! I'll get up (am on my way out of town) on Sunday all the movies and all the suggested reading materials, we will want a full slate to choose from and we will want to hear from others reading other books what is said, both pro and con on Gandhi. Ella also will want a list of some of the concepts Gandhi is advancing, like ahimsa in the heading for ready reference, we're working on these things as you read.
Mahlia, on the Religion discussion, you can see that Ann posted yesterday in the National Book Festival discussion, we think it best to wait for her own hand at the tiller there, because it was her own initiative and creation. Thank you for being so supportive of our discussions, we here are about more than book discussions, we're truly a Books Family!
Hats, I totally agree, I had vaguely heard of him but never read ONE word he had written, and I predict your eyes will flap open and be glued there, because my own eyes have not shut since I read it!!! I don't know what it IS about Gandhi but I find him amazing and I have...oh well, won't spill beans hold on to the sides of your computer chairs while we switch the scenery around a bit!!!
ginny
Éloïse De Pelteau
September 5, 2003 - 09:37 am
I think that switching to Gandhi first is a good idea Ginny. I have seen the movie at least 4 times. I look forward to this discussion in November. My daughter Françoise will lend me the book and even if it is in French, I don't mind.
Eloïse
Jonathan
September 5, 2003 - 10:34 am
The enthusiasm here is catching. A switch in scheduling of the Experiments With Truth and Freedom is fine with me. It does make good sense. I've read somewhere that more than 400 bios have been written about Gandhi...with no end in sight. And, yes, I'm convinced of the rumor that Gandhi and Mother Theresa are often seen hob-nobbing in Heaven.
TigerTom
September 5, 2003 - 01:58 pm
Ghandi and Mother Teresa,
It would be interesting to sit and listen to
a conversation between Ghandi and Mother Teresa.
I never met Ghandi but did meet Mother Teresa
in Calcutta, very briefly, just long enough to
shake her hand and get her to autograph a small
book on her work in Calcutta. She had a presence
about her. Very Strong handshake.
Tiger Tom
georgehd
September 6, 2003 - 01:29 am
Ginny I am not sure that I understand your post 86. What are the exact titles of the books proposed and when are we scheduled to read them? I have ordered the book pictured above and two books by Fischer that looked interesting.
Ann Alden
September 6, 2003 - 09:11 am
I hope to be able to concentrate on this book and read it through and join you in November for the discussion. I have read one book since I became ill and it was fiction and very good. Actually, I read it this week. First time I could focus my eyes on print and my concentration on the book. Lucky lucky me! Can't wait to see how this one goes. My love to all of you, I have really missed SN.
Ann Alden
September 6, 2003 - 09:18 am
I have been unable to pick up any of my email because my computerized son changed my browser from Netscape to Mozilla. He promises to either change me back into Netscape just long enough for me to pick up my email or to help me move my emails to the Mozilla browser. I am a little fuzzy on how to do this at this time.
Lou2
September 6, 2003 - 11:40 am
Ann, How wonderful to have you back@!!!! So glad you're up and around enough to join us! Take good care of yourself, no relapses allowed! We've missed you so much!
Lou
Persian
September 6, 2003 - 02:59 pm
ANN - welcome back! Good to see you here again; you've been greatly missed.
Hats
September 7, 2003 - 08:18 am
Hi Ann,
We missed you! Glad you are improving.
Ginny
September 8, 2003 - 08:36 am
Ann, we are so delighted to see you back and honored that your first book will be on Gandhi, and you've picked a worthy one, indeed, welcome!!
Thank you all Jonathan and Eloise and Everybody for your enthusiasm and your willingness to change schedule, I agree that it makes more sense to read the man's own words first.
Thank you Jane for those stunning figures and that link, I hope to get the links in the heading asap, I can't believe that population figure, had to blink twice, good heavens.
Thank you Mahilia for that link into the background, will get that in the heading as well.
Thank you George for the pertinent questions, we will read only one book here as a group, first, Gandhi: An Autobiography: The Story of my Experiments With Truth in which Gandhi sets out his own beliefs which of course goverened his life from that point on.
That will be in NOVEMBER!
We will have 5 movies to lend out or recommend which will show either the background of India, at different times in history, the flavor of modern India, Gandhi's own life and accomplishments, etc.
But the other books you have will be invaluable, as Jonathan says more than 400 have been written ON Gandhi and I think he wrote 100 himself, and there's simply no way we can read them all. And many of them will be contradictory, so we will rely upon you and your outside reading to bring here the voices you have found in other books which will shed light on what Gandhi did with these philosophies? Even IF they don't occur in the timespan of THIS one book, we will need them for a complete picture.
THEN in December Tiger Tom will lead Freedom at Midnight, which examines the end of the British Raj in India, that one thing, and all the players on THAT stage, Mountbatten, Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, et. al, and we will understand better then why Gandhi refused to attend the celebrations?
In other words we will discuss here in November Gandhi's own autobiography and we will eagerly await any other information from any other book (I hope we can get up a corollary reading list of 43000 books) which you care to submit, in fact we will depend on it.
If there is one thing I did learn at Oxford, there are a million different voices about India, let's hear as many as you can manage to bring here for us to delight in?
Hat and Lou, it's amazing how many other figures come to mind while reading this, that's a great one, and Tiger Tom, you've MET Mother Teresa!! Wow!!
Lou, this is beautiful may we put it in the main B&L heading?
"Isn't it great to come here and not only enjoy ourselves, but learn while we're doing it????"
I agree, thank you for that, I hope what we do here will be a shining example of that. I can't wait to hear what you all think of the book!!!
Now have I cleared any process up or not? Please do ask, never sit on a concern or a question, have at it?
ginny
Ginny
September 8, 2003 - 05:00 pm
BLUEBIRD!!! Everybody!! Alert Alert!! It's ONLINE!! Gahdhi: The Story of My Experiments With Truth is ONLINE!!! WHEE!! Who knew??
Ella Gibbons
September 9, 2003 - 05:41 pm
WHO KNEW!!! BLUEBIRD KNEW??? HAHAHA
THIS IS GREAT, NOW EVERYONE CAN JOIN - LOOK THERE IT IS AND IN BIG LETTERS - WOW!
Éloïse De Pelteau
September 17, 2003 - 05:12 am
Hi! Ginne and company. Good to have the book online and I read the two first pages. I was not surprised by what I read of the man. What I was surprised to read is that he was a "mediocre student". Is bring modest you think? because he said he spent all his time at home reading and studying.
I am happy to be able to begin reading this online because otherwise I would have to search for the book in used book stores here and I don't know if they would have it.
Gives us time to think and be ready when the discussion starts on November 1st.
Eloïse
Ginny
September 17, 2003 - 12:37 pm
Wonderful, Eloise, and I have been thinking really that what we all need to do now is see the movie Gandhi first? Do you all have access to it somehow? I will have it to lend out as well if you have trouble getting it.
I'm taking a course on India as you know and getting all sorts of fabulous facts for you all, you'll be surprised (I was) really surprised, I'm taking notes like a madwoman (and probably look like one) but yesterday's session was led by an Indian PhD in Ecoonomics and he explained a great deal I did not understand which I think will add to our experience here, as well, he also referred to the movie Gandhi. I think if we first SEE the movie then we will realize WHAT Gandhi did, as he's unlikely to tell us and the book ends before most of the events which we all associate with him begin?
But the book shows his own philosophy and his brutal honesty or at least that's what I think of it, I know at Oxford they said he was brilliant and a master tactician and even yesterday the professor said that (again) this is the second time I've heard Gandhi's philosophies of non violence referred to as a "weapon," and I think we will enjoy trying to figure out where we personally stand on the subject of those indian terms in the heading, and his most interesting philosophies.
Also somebody asked him about Lagaan which you know we have on order here for you all and he said it was good, it was based in the events of the late 1800's and even tho it had singing and dancing still it conveyed quite a bit (while seriously recommending Gandhi) It's on STARZ next week apparently, I can't seem to get my hands on an ORBIT magazine, but if you can find it and tape it it will give you another view. If not we will lend it here, but it's the least of those we will offer.
DO TRY, if you at all can, to see the movie Gandhi before we start, it will enllighten, not only your appreciation of the book but Tom's Freedom at Midnight, as well, a UNIT in India and we're not even started yet!
ginny
TigerTom
September 17, 2003 - 03:48 pm
Ginny,
Ghandi's early life did much to shape the later man.
England and South Africa awoke him to some realities
that he had not esperienced before.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
September 17, 2003 - 04:27 pm
Right, I agree totally, Tom, and our book will not get that far but you are so right, we can understand him once (or better) we read his own book and once we pick ourselves back up off the floor after seeing the movie Gandhi and then read his book and then people bring in all the other things they have read which contribute to the whole, (we will need many of thsoe submissions) we'll be READY for you in Freedom and that will put the cap on it, I personally will need to know more about the Dyer massacre so I hope that some book somewhere has more.
ginny
Persian
September 17, 2003 - 05:19 pm
Here's a link to the Encyclopedia B. which provides a brief explanation of the massacre. The ferocity of the attack and the lack of follow-up attention sets the tone of this heinous act.
GingerWright
September 17, 2003 - 08:59 pm
The Dyer massacre Hope this helps if not may I have E for effort. Smile.
Ella Gibbons
September 18, 2003 - 12:32 pm
About 3 months ago, or sometime after July, I did view the movie (which is readily available at my library - does your library carry old movies?), but before November I think I must see it again. One scene stands out vividly in my mind but it is not the Dyer massacre, it is a terrible scene of British cruelty toward those who were wholly convinced that Gandhi's ideas of "forceful non-violent resistance" would make a difference.
In that scene one can visualize the courage of those who took part in our own Civil Rights Revolution, which, although not as bloody as in India, produced intended results.
As Tom pointed out I was surprised that Gandhi spent a great deal of time in South Africa in his early life.
This will be a great discussion and I know we will all learn a lot and isn't it great we will have Ginny, fresh from a series of lectures about India. Yeah, Ginny!
Jonathan
September 21, 2003 - 12:31 pm
Let's make it several more with the discussion. I agree with all of you who feel that this will be a great learning experience.
Mahlia's reference to one Abdul Ghaffar Khan tweaked my curiosity into following up on her tip. And it does seem like a very worthwhile effort, beginning with the link provided in post #84. What a giant of a man standing there beside Gandhi, in the photo provided. Furthermore, I'll swear, having already seen other photos, that Gandhi is standing much higher than Abdul Ghaffar Khan. Whatever Gandhi is standing on must be at least a foot high. Can't help wondering how tall Gandhi might have been if he had eaten a little more. Or experimented a little less.
Their hearts, no doubt, were equally big.
Jonathan
Ginny
September 22, 2003 - 07:06 am
I love the posts in here, I love the excitement and the different perspectives and I'm expecting a veritable feast when we convene in November!!! Speaking of Gandhi's height, Jonathan, I just saw in yet another book a photo of him and his wife, and she's very short next to him, and quite pretty: she's also so Carolyn tells me, written HER autobiogrraphy and I'm going to try to get it. A giant among men, wasn't he?
Now there's good news and bad news, which do you want first?
We are asking everybody to view the movie Gandhi first before we begin this book, so that you can have some idea of what he did, on the scale he did it, so that when he explains his philosophy you can see how it fitted into the larger context.
I now have the movie here if you are unable to get it locally on VHS write me by clicking on my name and I'll mail it to you.
Here is the recommended background viewing for this film:
Films for Background, in this order:
(This is the order at Oxford so I will follow it)
Historical Background: 1. The Chess Players (Not the one with Omar Sharif) in Urdu with subtitles with Richard Attenborough (not widely available in the US)
2. A Passage to India: good for the background of the British Raj and the Indian reaction.
3. Gandhi: please see this before we begin, it's important
4. Lagaan: My Dream of India (takes up the East India Company, (the bad news is they sent me a DVD of it which is the only form I have to lend, sorry, but it's on STARZ this week sometime if you get that channel or you have DVD will be glad to lend it to you?) The East India Company's doings are a bit of a shock? THEY are what Victoria arbitrarily took over as "Empress of India." This movie looks at the East India Company's excesses, and adds in the better elements of "Bollywood," singing, dancing and modern Indian filmmaking, it gives a nice background and rounds out the experience.
5. Juggernaut: a documentary made in 1968 about what Indira Ghandi (Nehru's daughter) did with funds given her to improve the lives of her people: India's emergence as an atomic power: the pullling by hand by hundreds of Indians across the country, part of a neuclear reactor, the contrasts and scenery are stunning.
I agree, Ella, that in reading this, you are struck BY the courage it took to practice non violence and I think it gives you the insight to see how people who can do it are able to stand it, I also thought of the Civil Rights movement.
My current course is so fabulous, and so far over my own head that all I will be able to bring to the table for my own part (many of you will be bringing things from other books and sources, I will bring some facts I'm getting in the course for your interest) but this professor also used the word "weapon" in referring to Gandhi and I think we will really enjoy reading how this man became such a powerful weapon himself, fascinating!
ginny
Lou2
September 22, 2003 - 10:56 am
Found the Gandhi movie in the online catalog of our library... hope to get it soon... also finally found the book... have been renewing it along with Freedom, but love having a copy. Finishing obligations for September, so now's the time to focus on Gandhi. I found him so interesting in Freedom. There were 2 other books by Gandhi in the BandN store, religious writings, but couldn't find any of his political writings there. I wondered if "they" are doing his writings like "they" are those of CS Lewis... repackaging along theme lines???
Lou
Ann Alden
September 24, 2003 - 06:10 am
Lou2, funny that you should mention C S Lewis books. In our local bookstore's children's section, I just found all of the PB's of the Chronicles of Narnia plus a Companion to Narnia by Paul Ford. I purchased the set plus the companion for my grans and hope to share them when they spend the night. I believe that the other C S Lewis books are spread out in the different categories that he covered--biography, religion etc.
I have ordered "Gandhi" from Alibris for $6 plus shipping and it should arrive forthwith. I will try to get the movie from the library. I was unaware of the other movies listed here by Ginny but will look for them. This is becoming exciting!
Ann Alden
September 24, 2003 - 06:16 am
Another movie which tells the story of India and England is "The Jewel in the Crown". It was presented as a series on PBS about 10 or more years. When it was shown in England, most of the citizens could be found either at home or in a pub watching it, every Tuesday, until it ended. Beautiful cinematography!
Lou2
September 24, 2003 - 06:35 am
Ann, Just for fun, would you look for me... Which book is listed or number as the first one?? "They" have been changing that also!!! Our grands have the Narnia books too.... you are sooo lucky your grands are close enough to read those books with!!! What a wardrobe!!!
Now that you mention it, I remember Jewel in the Crown, also.
Lou
Ann Alden
September 25, 2003 - 06:21 pm
"The Magician's Nephew" is the first in a series of 7. I have 6 in the series. There were no #4's. Boo hoo!
I think we have "The Jewel in the Crown" at our library. It was so good that we didn't ever miss an eipsode while it was showing.
Ginny
September 26, 2003 - 07:13 am
Yes, the Jewel in the Crown, excellent suggestion, Ann, it's movies like that (did you know there was another episode never shown in the US? It inolved the officer and, I'm afraid, homosexuality, I saw it not too long ago, very interesting) anyway, yes it's those kinds of movies which made me personally interested in the Raj in the first place, good choice.
I think maybe one of the reasons that A Passage to India is recommended and the Jewel was not, was Passage, (and it's completely different from the book, so if you can read the book you want IT and not the movie, but if you don't have time, do view that movie also) shows the POV of the Indian caught up in the Raj, and his helplessness in the face of the capriciousness of the British? The book carries it to greater and more ominous areas, but the movie is somewhat broadbased in showing how the Indians felt.
(In other words, in the book there is REAL resentment and anger, the movie mutes that into uncomprehending despair). Either way you get a picture (and Passage is short) of the Indian's feeling about the British (and you do in Jewel, too, as well as Lagaan and Chess Players and of course, the one and only Gandhi). What fun this will be, so glad you all are planning to be here, we'll get OUT of this experience what each of us puts IN it!
ginny
Jonathan
September 27, 2003 - 11:47 am
I have to agree with Ginny, when she recommends the movie GANDHI as a 'must see'. It's a marvellous film, and has obviously become an important piece of Gandhiana, despite anything that some historians might say about it. The rest of us will want to make up our own minds whether or not what Gandhi says about himself in his autobiography squares with the picture of him in the movie.
It seems Gandhi had very negative feelings about civilization, especially in its Western form. But he doesn't seem to have convinced all his fellow-Indians...not if my experience last night is any indication. I had settled down to watch the GANDHI film, and well into it, when the telephone rang. A seductive, young, woman's voice tried to convince me of the advantages of carrying a well-known credit card. Telemarketing! But it was her distinct Indian accent that held me spellbound. Was she calling from outside the country, I asked. Yes, from an international call-center. From India? Yes. From where in India? From Bangalore, she replied. A few more pleasantries and we ended our little chat. Only later did I think that that I should have asked her, if she had ever heard of Mahatma Gandhi. Things move so rapidly nowadays.
Jonathan
Ginny
September 27, 2003 - 05:21 pm
Good heavens Jonathan, small world, huh? You should definitely have asked her and now you must sit by the phone hoping that she did not mark down you refused to buy and then ....how far into the movie did you get? hahahaah Anyway, and then you can ask the next Indian person who calls, forewarned is forearmed!
You just light up the boards, I hope you know that, Mahatma Jonathan!
ginny
Lou2
September 29, 2003 - 03:39 pm
Gandhi Movie... Hubby and I watched the movie today. He liked it as much as I did. I'm so glad I had read Freedon at Midnight before I watched it... made it much easier to follow and I could explain stuff that I don't think I could have connected otherwise. Riot scenes were just heart breaking weren't they?? Loved Mrs. Gandhi's character as well... Nice afternoon!! Thanks, Ginny...
Lou
Ginny
September 29, 2003 - 05:26 pm
WASN'T that some movie? I saw it initially before my class and before I knew anything and now I need to go back and see what I can pick out and understand, I thought also Ben Kingsley was incredible and I swear he got thinner, am I the only one who noticed that? I wonder, I wonder if we might write him and ask him if the movie or Gandhi affected him?
I saw while in England a movie, Vanity Fair, which will come out next spring, being filmed at Hampton Court Palace and it totally mesmerized me, the filmmaking. I don't see how you could come away from something like making a move of Gandhi unchanged, wonder if we should give wtiting Ben Kingsley a try???
??
Nothing ventured!
ginny
Ann Alden
September 30, 2003 - 02:52 pm
He had such a great built when he decided to wear only what the untouchables wore and then when he was on the last fast, I particulary noticed that his arms and shoulders were much thinner. Was that a "cut and paste" job?? hahahaha! Maybe??
Ralph and I also watched the movie last night and really enjoyed it, in spite of the awful riot scenes. Did you notice how he aged as he went on his train safaris throughout India??
Jonathan
October 1, 2003 - 12:52 pm
Ben Kingsley definitely gets thinner as he moves through Gandhi's life. And how could he be left unaffected by, or while playing Gandhi? Just reading about this strange man admonishes one into self-examination.
Specifically, it doesn't seem unlikely that Ben K would would not have tried fasting, to work himself into the role. And when one considers how often fasting comes up in the film, and how many retakes are done for special scenes (isn't it fascinating to watch his facial reflexes as his tongue looks for something to taste), and how well acquainted Ben K must have become with Gandhi's abstemious dietary notions, one may well wonder that Ben K ever came out of the film alive.
While Gandhi was experimenting with Truth, others were observing him. I've found something said by one who knew him well. Someone by the name of Chakravarti Rajagopalachari, usually referred to as CR, who was in fact the father-in-law of Gandhi's daughter. CR is quoted as saying:
'It is now said (1976), that he (Gandhi) was born so holy that he had a natural bent for fasting. In reality, he was one of the hungriest men I have ever known. That's why he thought of fasting as a penance. Vegetarians eat a greater bulk of food than non-vegetarians, but even for a vegetarian he had a huge appetite.'
CR then goes on to say something about his son's father-in-law being 'highly sexed', but that would would probably be better left for some other occasion. I will try to refrain from posting prematurely.
Jonathan
Ginny
October 1, 2003 - 01:46 pm
Ann and Jonathan, the thing that struck me about Ben Kingsley was the bones sticking out of his back, that's how I remember it, but I'll rewatch it and be sure, I bet he DID fast!
Ann I did notice how he aged and I think the thing that shocked me the most was how much he looked like the real Gandhi, it's amazing~!
It does, doesn't it, Jonathan, it does cause you to look at yourself. For some reason while I was reading this I kept thinking of Thomas a Becket, whose own personality and dominance caused such serious problems for him (it was not only, apparently, a problem of church vs state but other ways of how those in harmony with the church thought to do things). Therefore when he was killed (the eye witness accounts of that thing are chilling even today, the murderers broke into Canterbury Cathedral right before a service, making a great noise and some of the clergy came running to him and frantically warned him they were coming. He, instead, insisted on processing to the altar with the cros carried before him, and conducting the service, where they found him and killed him). When he was prepared for burial, people were shocked to learn he had been wearing a nasty vermin infested hair shirt of the most severe quality, I wonder if we will get into motification of the flesh in this. I love those quotes, Jonathan, and thank you very much for bringing them here, we will learn so much about this man!
ginny
anneofavonlea
October 2, 2003 - 06:22 am
to 'satyagraha' and thus to Gandhi himself. Not sure how available the autobiography is, but know the movie off by heart. I was only five when he died, but remember the sadness. Oddly my grandmother worshiped him, and I say oddly because she was also enamoured of Churchill, who hated mahatma.I shall lurk and make an effort to secure his autobigraphy,
Fasting fascinates me as well, try it, I mean really try it for a day untill hunger becomes all consuming...... for an insight into gandhi's selfcontrol.when hungry, I become self absorbed and introverted and yet he used it as a tool of self denial.I believe when asked about his message, he answered, "my life is my message"so ginny and Ella, you have a mammoth responsibility here to gandhi and to us to see that we get it.
Anneo
Éloïse De Pelteau
October 2, 2003 - 08:50 am
After trying to find The Story of My Experiments with Truth in English, Yesterday I went to our Municipal Library close by and they had it in French. The Title is exactly as in English so I took it out and started to read it. Gandhi has always fascinated me. I saw the movie several times too and just loved it. I have a month to absorb enough to post now and then and share thoughts with others.
I am looking forward to this discussion in October.
Eloïse
POTSHERD
October 5, 2003 - 08:32 am
Gandhi's Truth_On the Origins of Militant Nonvoliolence. author Erik H. Erikson,W,W,Norton published book in 1969 ( ISBN 0-393-00741-3 )and out of print however I checked B& Noble and it appears second hand copies in paperback as well as hard back copies are readily available. used copies in paperback vary from 4 - 6 bucks.
Eriikson, by training a psychoanalyst spent considerable time in India interviewing people associated with Gandhi ,studying documents and visiting significant, historic sites relevant to Gandhi.
Jonathan
October 6, 2003 - 05:00 pm
and from Freedom At Midnight...'another procession...they had been walking since midnight to take darshan from Gandhi, a kind of mystic communion engendered by being in the presence of a great spirit.'
from glory to glory!!!
Jonathan
Ginny
October 8, 2003 - 07:23 am
Anneo and Potsherd, so glad to see you here, Welcome, Welcome!!
Everybody, the book is ONLINE!@! Eloise, it's in the heading, although not in French, I think if you could find a French version I really might enjoy the difference in translation, but at any rate, everybody check in the heading it's entirely ONLINE and you need pay not a penny.
Anneo, I agree about fasting, and it's strange the feeling it gives you after one day, but several days running? Or as a lifestyle? I wonder, I think this will be fascinating!!!
Sorry to have been away from my post here, we've been in Washington DC where Laura Bush herself referred to US (YOU!) in her opening speech at the National Book Festival, and we did have Gandhi on the table and it did attract quite a few interested people, including some Indians and some Pakistanis, and I DO hope they can join us here, we'd really love to hear their perspectives.
So the book is YOURS for one click and I am so glad to see so many here to take this, another journey, Jonathan, with us and see what we find out!~
The movie Gandhi is making our rounds, please see it before the discussion starts, Juggernaut is still in transit here, but Lagaan is available but only on DVD.
You should really try to see A Passage to India or the Jewel in the Crown first before viewing Gandhi, tho, to give you some background!
So glad to see all of you, we'll NEED all of you to help us understand this very complex man.
ginny
Persian
October 11, 2003 - 02:43 pm
GINNY - so glad that you and other SN folks had such a good time at the National Book Festival in Washington DC. My husband attended and also enjoyed himself very much. He will be reading with me in November and December as we get into the discussions. And as the Islamic month of Ramadan approaches and we fast from sunrise to sunset, we've been talking about Gandhi's longs fasts.
Ginny
October 12, 2003 - 06:52 am
Mahlia, I'm delighted that your husband will be reading along with us and hope you'll share some of his comments, I wish I had had the pleasure of meeting him at the National Book Festival, maybe next year?
ginny
Persian
October 12, 2003 - 11:57 am
You may have a chance to meet him sooner than that if you're planning on attending the Virginia Bash. We're hoping to drive down and enjoy the day with other SN folks.
Several posts ago I inquired about a SN poster displayed in the Library of Congress. Yesterday our friend from the LC said that if I could provide a couple of posters and/or bookmarks, he would see that they were displayed. So if you have a couple to spare, please send me an email and I'll give you our mailing address. My husband will be happy to deliver the posters/bookmarks personally to the LC.
isaac
October 17, 2003 - 01:25 am
I have long venerated the ideals of Mr Gandhi - since they are also practical!
Like his statement I read somewhere about taking the phrase "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" in a Literal Way. Gandhi said:"If so there will be a lot of blind and toothless people in this world. This was what first impressed me.
Then, comes his idea of non-violence ( which, imho, follows from it)
For if we shouldn't bust the other guy's face, what do we do!
We have no other option but to "turn the other cheek" as Jesus said.
Gandhi had no religious prejudices - though a Hindoo to the end, he always had the highest regard for both Christianity and Islam. He knew parts of the Holy Quran in the Arabic and the holy Bible in English, by heart ( we have this from his friend Louis Fischer). Gandhi's general opinion was that one should learn the good that is found in ALL religions. Nothing wrong with that! For, it is a plain FACT that the Ethics of all religions is the SAME.
And there is nothing "simpler" than that !
In a way, His Holiness The Dalai Lama - is a living embodiment of Gandhi's principles. I was amused to learn of the answer he gave to the late Dr. Carl Sagan ( you know, "billions -- and billions--" )
Sagan accosted the Dalai Lama directly on the unscientific foundation of Buddhism - the principle of reincarnation - for which as Sagan said, there is no scientific proof!
The Dalai Lama's reply was sweet, simple, direct and absolutely corrrect ( as per the Lord Buddha's Own First Sermon, q.v.)
It was this. "Your charge is a very serious matter, Prof. Sagan. If true, then, why, we Buddhists have to find a better foundation! Could you assist us?" - from a recent show on World Link TV.
A perfectly scientific answer ! I wish the thelogians of most religions could understand what the Dalai Lame meant! - they probably can't! Neither do the politicians who have reddened the planet on theology's behalf!
Soon after WW2 a wave of idealism swept over the world - and we got the UN and a US Commitment to assist the people of the world. Alas! soon we got entangled in the Cold War, the Arab-Israeli Problem - and so on. Bloody Murder !
And now in the India of his birth, this great man's principles are as the cliche goes - "more honoured in the breach than in the assent !"
First, they murdered Gandhi the man - and now the ruling party of India composed of the murderers of Gandhi, are busy murdering his principles - vide the Kashmir imbroglio and the widespread civil riots and murders going on. Such is the fate of Gandhi, and before him, such was the fate of Jesus Christ.
I wish to quote just one more sentence from the Dalai Lama - in broken English - " Small scale violence very bad - large scale violence very good"
This aptly summarises the world we find ourselves in !
Ginny
October 17, 2003 - 06:37 am
Isaac, welcome welcome!! We are delighted to have you here!
Thank you for a MOST interesting post, I think we are going to really enjoy this one!
ginny
georgehd
October 18, 2003 - 09:00 am
Here are a number of web sites that I have found to be useful for this discussion:
WEB SITES FOR THE GANDHI DISCUSSION.
Hindu religion:
http://www.hindubooks.org/dynamic/ Indians in South Africa from Christian perspective:
http://www.abwe.org/message/vol49no06/indians_south_africa.asp Muslims in South Africa;
http://www.islamonline.net/English/artculture/2003/06/article08.shtml History of India (this site downloaded very very slowly:
http://www.historyofindia.com/hist_text/brisec.html This is an excellent site for History of India
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/mainhist.html A more concise History of India:
http://www.geographia.com/india/india02.htm M.K. Gandhi Institute for non violence web site:
http://www.gandhiinstitute.org/
isaac
October 19, 2003 - 02:41 am
georgehd - for providing us these valuable links: we need 'em. Ihave read a reasonable amount of Hindoo and Buddhist Philosophy but anm very rusty about the history of India both ancient and recent. Your links sure will help.
BTW, permit me to recommend the following books by a man who was BOTH a Professor of Philosophy (at Oxford U. England) and President of India: Dr. S. Radhakrishnan. The Books are:
1: "A Hindu View of Life".
2: "Eastern Religions and Western Thought", and finally, his magnum opus
3: "Indian Philosophy", 2 vols.
Ginny. and Ella. I thought you said, you'll kick off the discussion proper, on November 1st or some such time you think appropriate.That's Ok! by me.
So I'll reserve my fire till such a time as you say "Shoot! or Tirez!" - an un-Gandhian expression - if you don't mind my introducing violent metaphors from the world of 18th and 19th century Military Drills. L O L!
My principal interest is the Applications of Gandhi's ideas to economics and foreign affairs. I am reading, most diligently, the first two Chaps. of the work you posted, "My Exprmnts. with Truth"
so we are waiting for your command!
Ginny
October 19, 2003 - 05:31 am
Wonderful, thank you so much, George for those excellent links, we'll be in the way of producing a wonderful resource for anybody interested in Gandhi's life and philosophies, and apparently there are LEGIONS of same!
Isaac, yes, we will begin on November 1, and I'm very excited about your applications to Economics, my class at the moment just had two sessions on the Economics of India, and I freely admit it was over my head but I did take SOME notes, (the Economics in question mostly pertain to the India of 2003, but there was some history) so we will be anxious for you to fill in the gaps, thank you SOOO much!
And also thank you for the wonderful three books, Ella and I will begin to get our acts together here and begin to get up a list of Recommended Reading, our Ann Alden sent me an incredible site also on Indian Literature with 9,000 volumes so it's really good to have specific recommendations, and I am going to have to order one about a train journey thru India, can you IMAGINE the romance of it?
Many thanks, Gentlemen!
ginny
Persian
October 19, 2003 - 02:33 pm
GINNY - after we complete this discussion, how about exploring the idea of holding a future Books gathering in India? Yes, I've already mentioned the annual Book Festivals in Cairo and Frankfurt, but what an opportunity to have learned so much and THEN to actually visit the site of much of Gandhi's work. This type of event might be an excellent link with an Indian university, which could serve as the host site and provide liaison, further instruction and guides.
JoanK
October 23, 2003 - 10:14 am
I am looking forward to the dicussion on Ghandi -- I think I can juggle both that and Durant, I'm a fast reader and have lots of time. I read his autobiography many years ago, along with Erickson and Forster's "A Passage to India", and am looking forward to revisiting them.
I had no trouble ordering the autobiography in English from Amazon.It was about $15.
See you in November.
Ginny
October 23, 2003 - 11:08 am
Joan K, how FABULOUS, welcome welcome, we are delighted to welcome you to Gandhi, I am so looking forward to this discussion!!
Welcome!
I'm a fast reader, too, if you would like to borrow any of the movies, just holler!
ginny
Ella Gibbons
October 23, 2003 - 06:06 pm
Wonderful, we have such an interested group of participants for Gandhi, this will be one of the top discussions we have ever had in the BOOKS and, of course, I say that for every one we start and finish.
I knew very little about Gandhi before I started reading and I know NOTHING about the economics of India, except to say that they were very, very poor - well, they had a small class of wealthy British government figures during Gandhi's lifetime; however, if you have read anything at all, you know the conditions were pitiable (pitiful??).
Last night I watched the beautiful DVD of PASSAGE TO INDIA - one of the best movies I've seen in such a long time, the scenery, the music in the background, the dramatic portrayal of the castes in India - it was all gorgeous. And I immediately started the book, which promises to be just as good. The author, E.M.Forster, in his lifetime, would not permit a movie to be made; but willed the rights to Kings College which gave permission.
The movie was filmed both in India and England and I urge all of you to see it if possible. I'm looking forward to November lst with great enthusiasm.
TigerTom
October 23, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Ella,
While there were great masses of Poor and very poor
there were also some very, very, very rich Maharaja's
many who could have bought and sold every Englishman
in India. One was considered the richest man in the
world. Even with all of that wealth those same Maharaja's
could not go into some British Clubs or Simila.
Tiger Tom
Ann Alden
October 24, 2003 - 07:46 am
I am deep in the movie, "The Jewel in the Crown" which is quite long but worth my time. Another beautifully crafted tale of the India-Great Britian saga. The scenery, the music, the poverty, the wealth, whoa!! I was surprised to hear that the English were afraid that India would help Japan during WWII by going through Burma or invading Burma?? I forget which but it was something that I hadn't heard before.
Ella Gibbons
October 24, 2003 - 11:49 am
TOM, yes you are so right. There is an incident in the Forster book we could discuss at length: Mr. Fielding, an English schoolmaster, was talking to a young Moslem Indian doctor, and he said "I came over here to get a job" and the young Indian answered that in so doing he took a job away from a native Indian. Mr. Fielding said "But I got here first."
The English were not all wealthy either, I certainly misspoke when I posted above.
Listen to this sentence: "Hamidullah had called in on his way to a worrying committee of notables, nationalist in tendency, where Hindus, Moslems, two Sikhs, two Parsis, a Jain and a Native Christian tried to like one another more than came natural to them."
A little United Nations or somewhat like the USA is today.
TigerTom
October 24, 2003 - 02:29 pm
Ella,
As in other areas, united against England, many different
groups worked together who would, after the British left,
cheefully kill one another without remorse.
Tiger Tom
Lou2
October 24, 2003 - 04:19 pm
Showing my ignorance here... Was South Africia an English colony? You all are so much easier than finding a history book!! LOL Reading away on Gandhi... hope to have it finished by the first.
Lou
Ann Alden
October 24, 2003 - 05:21 pm
Here's brief history of South Africa. A timeline! I always think of South Africa as a Dutch colony since they have been there the longest but from the movie, "Gandhi", that the Brits were in charge in the early 1900's.
South Africa timeline
anneofavonlea
October 24, 2003 - 06:46 pm
the cape colony, which has expanded into south africa.The british took it from them.The dutch then moved to the orange free state, after the boer war which the british won, all present day south africa became a british colony.Thats very simplistic, and I'm sure true history buffs will shoot me down.Certainly when Gandhi was there, it was by then entirely british.
Ginny
October 25, 2003 - 05:58 am
OH I'm loving this, all the background and links and history, many thanks, All!! It's amazing, you have HEARD of this stuff and people all your life but it's vague, we've heard of the Boer War, but we're not sure exactly where it was or how it fits into the picture, thanks, Ann, Anneo, and Everybody!
One thing I found just incredible is how the East India Company moved IN on India and just TOOK OVER, we may find more of this history in Tom's discussion Freedom at Midnight, but essentially they were traders, and just took over the entire country, deposing rulers and making their own laws. That's what the movie The Chess Players is about, the deposition of the Prince of Lucknow (sp), and so it's even more incredible, when, due to their excesses, Queen Victoria, prodded by Disralei, simply took OVER all of those companies in one fell swoop, thus becoming the Empress of India! We may want to look at her docusment, too, it's quite interesting.
So all this sets the stage for this man Gandhi, who moved in a political climate which had been seething for some time, apparently, (I'm no historian, either, Anneo, so this may also seem too condensed) and so it's even MORE amazing what he managed to do!
Movie wise, the movie Gandhi is out on loan to one of our group, and I do appreciate the interest shown here in it, many thanks, and Passage has not come yet here, so that one needs to be rented locally, if possible, and seen first, Ann is watching the Jewel in the Crown, also a wonderful series, I have Lagaan but it's on DVD, and Juggernaut just came in the mail so will watch it this weekend and see if it's of value to us here: I know that it is not available anywhere else, so if it's of value you may want to borrow it, so you can have a fuller experience, but we'll see. It's only 20 minutes long.
ginny
anneofavonlea
October 25, 2003 - 06:05 am
really sets the scene,in south africa, his amazing courage there was absolutely portayed by Ben Kingsley.
Anneo
Ginny
October 25, 2003 - 06:12 am
Here is something which may or may not be of interest to you? Since the film The Chess Players is not available anywhere until next year, I went to a site which talked about it, since it was recommended to be viewed first in this series, and found this sort of summary/ description with some actual dialogue, and it may give you a flavor of what the film is about, I think the summary itself is interesting?
Summary
It is 1856, the eve of the first Indian struggle for independence (The Mutiny of 1857). A British firm, "The East India Company" rules much of India; directly or indirectly through 'treaties of friendship.'The kingdom of Avadh is under such a treaty of friendship with the British Company. Its ruler, Nawab Wajid Ali Shah (Amjad Khan), is an indifferent ruler, who prefers arts to the matters of state or politics. He is a poet, composer, singer, dancer and a choreographer. In reality, he is merely a figurehead. The British Company has allowed the landlords to become fairly independent of the state. The Company, in addition to collecting the riches from the state, also takes a share of the taxes collected by the landlords.
The king's able Prime Minister, Ali Naqi Khan (Victor Banerjee), is pained at the situation. But he does not do anything drastic due to his respect and loyalty to the king. Mirza Sajjad Ali (Sanjeev Kumar) and Mir Roshan Ali (Saeed Jaffrey) are two landlords living in the capital city of Lucknow. They too are part of the same culture and live off ancestral wealth and taxes collected from people. They do nothing, and are addicted to the game of chess. They play as per the ancient Indian rules of the game, ignorant of a different kind of chess played by the British; both literally and metaphorically. Mirza's wife, Khurshid (Shabana Azmi), feels neglected. Mirza no longer responds to her feminine charms due to his obsession with chess. Mir's wife, Nafeesa (Farida Jalal) too faces a similar fate. But she has found solace in a wild love affair with a young nephew. On discovering the affair, Mir opts to ignore it rather than confront the situation and disturb his routine of playing chess.
The British are strengthening their grip on the country and are playing a bigger game of chess. Lord Dalhousie, the Governor General, sends General Outram (Sir Richard Attenborough), the British Resident of Lucknow, to take over Avadh under the pretext of Nawab's misrule.
The king, Wajid Ali Shah faces a political checkmate. He has only two options, either to give up his throne or to fight a battle. He has neither the will nor the means to fight the British, for he has a tiny and ill equipped army. The state has felt no need to maintain an army as the Avadh is under a 'treaty of friendship' with the British Company.
Mir and Mirza learn about the British Company's troops marching towards Lucknow. Scared that they may be called to fight the British forces, they run off to a remote village to continue playing chess.
Fearing blood shedding of his people in a hopelessly unequal battle, the king opts to hand over the kingdom to the British with out a fight, singing to himself a Thumari that he has composed -
(Roughly translated: As we leave our beloved city of Lucknow, see what we have to go through...)
For Mir and Mirza, the chess continues even as the British troops march into the city until they have a fight over the game. Mir, who has nearly shot Mirza and is ashamed of his behavior, says, "We cannot even cope with our wives, so how can we cope with the company's army?" .
Comments
Shatranj Ke Khilari was Ray's most expensive film boasting of stars from western and Hindi cinema of Bombay. It was reported to have cost about two million rupees in comparison of his earlier films that were made under half a million rupees. This, however, was still a shoestring budget when compared with the average budgets of the contemporary Hindi films of Bombay, ranging from 4 to 10 million rupees. It is also his one of the two non-Bengali films; other being Sadgati (Deliverance) also based on a short story by Munshi Premchand.
While Munshi Premchand's story focuses on the two chess players Mirza and Mir, Ray expanded the story by elaborating the characters of Wajid Ali Shah and General Outram and adding a few more characters. Ray was attracted to the story by the parallel that Munshi Premchand draws between chess games of Mir and Mirza, and the crafty moves by the British to capture the king.
The film has no heroes or villains. Like in most of his films, he sympathizes with better attributes of both the British and the King, Wajid Ali Shah. General Outram is troubled with the illegal means he must follow to take over Avadh despite a treaty of friendship with the kingdom. But he feels bound by his duty to the British Empire. The King, Wajid Ali Shah, is shown as an accomplished poet, musician and choreographer with no interest in political matters. He has relied on the treaty of friendship with the British to pursue the arts in stead of maintaining an army.
It is interesting to note that the film was made during the darkest period of modern Indian democracy when the Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi declared "Emergency" from 1975 to 1977, and suppressed the fundamental rights for her political survival. This was made possible by her crafty moves and initial noninvolvement by people; like Mir and Mirza in the film.
All the lead players, Sanjeev Kumar (Mirza Sajjad Ali), Saeed Jaffrey (Mir Roshan Ali), Amjad Khan (Wajid Ali Shah, Nawab), Victor Banerjee (Ali Naqi Khan, the Prime Minister) and Sir Richard Attenborough (General Outram) give their finest performances.
The non Bengali audience also gets to appreciate Ray's dialogue writing skills in a few scene that are in English, though the Urdu dialogues that were written by collaborators do not rise to the same standards. A scene that takes place between General Outram (Sir Richard Attenborough) and Captain Weston (Tom Alter) prompted V. S. Naipaul to comment, "It's like a Shakespeare scene. Only three hundred words (actually over 500 words) are spoken but goodness! - terrific things happen." Here is an excerpt from 'The chess players : and other screenplays' :
Outram: Tell me, Weston, you know the language, you know the people here- I mean, what kind of a poet is the King? Is he any good, or is it simply because he's the king they say he's good?
Weston: I think he's rather good, Sir.
Outram: You do, eh?
Weston: Yes, Sir.
Outram: Do you know any of his stuff?
Weston: I know some, Sir.
Outram: Well, can you recite it? Do you know it by heart?
Weston: (taken aback): Recite it, Sir?
Outram: Yes, I'm not a poetry man. Many soldiers are. But I'm curious to know what it sounds like. I rather like the sound of Hindustani.
(Weston remains silent, slightly ill at ease.)
Outram: Are they long, these poems?
Weston: Not the ones I know, Sir.
Outram: Well, go on man, out with it!
(Weston recites a four-line poem.)
Outram: Is that all?
Weston: That's all, Sir.
Outram: Well, it certainly has the virtue of brevity. What the hell does it mean, if anything?
Weston: He's speaking about himself, Sir.
Outram: Well what's he saying? It's nothing obscene, I hope?
Weston: No, Sir.
Outram: Well, what's he saying?
Weston (coughing lightly):
Wound not my bleeding body.
Throw flowers gently on my grave.
Though mingled with the earth, I rose up to the skies.
People mistook my rising dust for the heavens.
That's all, Sir.
Outram: H'm. Doesn't strike me as a great flight of fancy, I'm afraid.
(Outram rises from his chair slowly.)
Weston: It doesn't translate very well, Sir.
Outram: And what about his songs? He's something of a composer, I understand? Are they any good, these songs?
Weston: They keep running in your head, Sir. I find them quite attractive. Some of them.
Outram: I see.
Weston: He's really quite gifted, Sir.
(Outram glances briefly at Weston and begins to pace the room thoughtfully.)
Weston: He's also fond of dancing, Sir.
Outram: Yes, so I understand. With bells on his feet, like nautch girls. Also dresses up as a Hindu god, I'm told.
Weston: You're right, Sir. He also composes his own operas.
Outram: Doesn't leave him much time for his concubines, not to speak of the affairs of state. Does he really have 400 concubines?
Weston: I believe that's the count, Sir.
Outram: And 29 'muta' wives. What the hell are muta wives?
Weston: Muta wives, Sir. They're temporary wives.
Outram: Temporary wives?
Weston: Yes, Sir. A muta marriage can last for there days, or three months, or three years. Muta is an Arabic word.
Outram: And it means temporary?
Weston: No, Sir.
(Outram raises his eyebrows.)
Outram: No?
Weston: It means-er, enjoyment.
Outram: Oh. Oh yes I see. Most instructive. And what kind of a king do you think all this makes him, Weston? All these various accomplishments?
Weston (smiling): Rather a special kind, Sir, I should think.
(Outram stops pacing, stiffens, turns sharply to Weston.)
Outram: Special? I would've used a much stronger word than that,
Weston: I'd have said a bad king. A frivolous, effeminate, irresponsible, worthless king.
Weston: He's not the first eccentric in the line-
Outram (interrupting): Oh I know he's not the first, but he certainly deserves to be the last. We've put up with this nonsense long enough. Eunuchs, fiddlers, nautch-girls and 'muta' wives and God knows what else. He can't rule, he has no wish to rule, and therefore he has no business to rule.
Weston: There I would agree with you, Sir.
Outram: Good. I am glad to hear that. I have it in mind to recommend you for a higher position when we take over-
Weston: Take over, Sir?
Outram: Take over, Weston. And any suspicion that you hold a brief for the King would ruin your chances. You remember that.
©Ray Family. Ray, Satyajit. The chess players : and other screenplays. Edited by Andrew Robinson. London, Faber, 1989. ISBN 0571140742.\
Let me go get a picture of that Thumari, it's quite interesting to view and get right back!
ginny
Ginny
October 25, 2003 - 06:14 am
Anneo, yes the film Gandhi was the most incredible thing I ever saw, and Kingsley deserved....didn't it get 11 Oscars? It deserved every one of them, I swear his back got bonier and bonier and he looked exactly like Gandhi, it's unreal. I need to watch it again right before we start here!
ginny
Ginny
October 25, 2003 - 06:17 am
Ok here is the Thumari which is mentioned in the film, I have no idea what "Thumari" means, obviously some sort of poem, but I will put it in the text, (and maybe the heading, neat, huh?)
anneofavonlea
October 25, 2003 - 06:46 am
means a piece of emotional, lightly classical music. It is more about the nuance and performance style apparently.the better exponents of thumari, never repeat themselves, even though to the untrained western observer that wouldnt necessarily be obvious.
Anneo
Ann Alden
October 25, 2003 - 06:50 am
I have finished watching the above and found the ending different from the first time I watched it. Surprising! but still a good film.
Isn't it amazing that the
Brits thought it okay if they just took over a kingdom?? And, isn't that term, "muta" from the Islamic faith? They have permission to marry like that so that they can have relations with a prostitute when traveling. Ridiculous!!
anneofavonlea
October 25, 2003 - 06:57 am
of the british is a little mind boggling, in their empire building days, and of course they didnt merely think they could do it, they did it.
The only thing about the prostiture thing is that at least they were more honest about it than western culture, where brothels survive, but no one (allegedly) uses them.
Anneo
JoanK
October 25, 2003 - 08:10 am
I was priveledged to be amoung the audience on the South Lawn of the White House when President Clinton welcomed Nelson Mandela for the first time as a head of state. I confess, I had tears in my eyes. When people saw how moved I was, they gave up their places and pushed me to the front of the crowd, a few feet from President Mandela. They gave him a seventeen gun salute, he gave a simple and moving speech, and shook hands with those of us who were close.
This was the second time I had seen in person a man who was a disciple of Gandhi and followed his road in helping his people. The first was Cesar Chavez, the farm worker who led his people to form a union. These two people had a presence which I find impossible to discribe, but is unmistakable. The first time I saw Chavez, I was looking casually at TV, when they showed a picture of a crowd of men. Although there were many men in the picture, one seemed to jump out of the screen, not because he was noisy, but because he was so quiet. Complete, is the best word I can describe him. "Who is he". I had to know. When I realized it was Chavez, I rushed to read everything I could find about him, and then about Gandhi. Many years later I had a chance to meet him. It was shortly before his death, and he was obviously in pain, but that quietness, completeness within himself was still there.
ALF
October 25, 2003 - 12:23 pm
The question was who was Einstien referring to?
"Generations to come, it may be,will scarcely believe that such a one as this
ever in flesh and blood walked upon earth." ..........Albert Einstein 1944
This was the final jeopardy answer this week and I almost came unglued trying to spit out the answer. the answer of course is GHANDI.
Ginny
October 25, 2003 - 12:50 pm
HAHAHAHA ANDREA!!! Did they GET it? Just think, if WE had been on Jeopardy what we would have won!! Did they get it?? haahahaha
I have a good time with that show, seeing how fast I can get out the answers, (when I can), just SEE what we're getting out of our book discussions here!
ginny
ALF
October 25, 2003 - 01:59 pm
Only one guy answered correctly. One guy said Hitler and the woman (I think it was) said Stalin.
Ann Alden
October 25, 2003 - 02:47 pm
I have always admired Nelson Mandela but you have described him perfectly. Complete! Isn't that how many view the prophets of different faiths? Gandhi was such a calm person and "complete" unto himself!
Congrats, Alf, but why weren't you there, on the show, winning some money??LOL!
Ginny
October 27, 2003 - 10:04 am
Joan K!!! I completely missed your post! THANK YOU, Ann, for mentioning it or I would never have seen it@ WOW, Joan, you met both Nelson Mandela AND Cesar Chavez, I'd say you have been in the presence of greatness twice! I loved this quote, you said, "These two people had a presence which I find impossible to discribe, but is unmistakable." and I agree, and I think Gandhi must have had the same. You meet people sometimes who have "it," and sometimes they are not of high estate or power, but you never forget them, thank you for telling us that!! I think a biography of Chavez might be very inspiring, or of Mandela, something for us to think about for the future.
Anneo, thank you for that definition, that's not at all what I thought it was! The strange thing to me about the British in India, is that the East India traders not only took over, they began, as we can see in that excerpt, levying taxes, that boggles the mind.
Ann, I thought that excerpt shows a lot of things, it's a very powerful film, and one of the points I got out of it was what happens when cultures clash: obviously the Prince of Lucknow became, in the eyes of the British East India Company "unfit to rule," (and he may well have been, does anybody know more about the Prince of Lucknow?) but perhaps...maybe we need to find out more about him first, the movie shows plainly, however, the prevailing British attitude (in the form of the East India Company)at the time. Also this movie is set right before the famous Mutiny (of which I know next to nothing) but it was a very important event in Indian history, and feuled the flames in Britain for a long time afterwards with lurid cartoons and descriptions in the press.
Ella and I have put up the Reading Schedule in the heading here for the first week?
You may have read the book 100 times, and 100 more books, as well, (and we hope you have) but for the first week we will discuss only the things found in the Introduction and Part I, (in addition, of course to any points you would like to make or questions you have). I am very much looking foward to the discussion!
Joan, I meant to say that I love a BBC America production called Ground Force, a program in which they go in and create a garden by surprise in two days, and the former leader of that show, Alan Tichmarsh, (sp) was being interviewed recently, and he said the most meaningful garden they ever did was the one they did for Nelson Mandela, as that was how he kept himself sane during his long imprisonment, by gardening (or so I undrestood them to say), and he would never forget that moment when he saw it for the first time, and I actually have a tape of that show, but have not watched it yet, if it's any good I'll say more about it then).
ginny
Ginny
October 27, 2003 - 10:16 am
Actually I do want to say this, too, lately my browser, which shows me how many new posts there are in discussions, is just completely flooey? I saw NO new posts here this morning since I last posted, and obviously that's wrong, so just a head's up, to be careful to go back to YOUR OWN last post so you don't miss any responses.
Another great thing to know is that IF you look way up in the upper right hand corner of your screen, just scroll all the way UP, you will see the words PRINT PAGE in the upper right hand corner?
Click on that? You will not be printing? But you will see about 100 or so of the latest posts here and will miss nothing?
Also Ann points out another important thing and that is that you all, please talk TO each other about the points you all raise, we want a real conversation going because we do want to hear what you each have to say, so glad you're all here and Everybody new reading this is welcome, as well, just sign IN, please, (as they used to say on....er.....what WAS that show?)
ginny
Jonathan
October 27, 2003 - 12:07 pm
That's certainly cause to be concerned. Disappointing, too. Like as if the postman has stopped calling. Do my friends think I'm dead.
This is just a trial post, Ginny, to see if it comes up when you log on. I must say that it's pleasing that you have changed your text color. In the interest of impartiality. It's a very nice color; but it could become signicant in a discussion of Indian politics, green being the color of Islam.
It was astounding to read about the answers given to the 'Jeopardy question'. (Andy, 154). (I've got a silver Focus, Andy. Aren't they great?) And yet, perhaps not surprising, that someone might think that Einstein had Hilter in mind, when he said that. That unbelevable character.
Doesn't it also seem strange that Hitler, like Gandhi, and at the same time, was sitting in prison writing HIS memoir, his Kampf? It seems almost a crime to mention Hitler and Gandhi in the same breath. But if the one turned the century into a curse, the other was the redeeming incarnation of whatever Hindu deity. (Left for us to decide.) Gandhi would probably have said that we're all just living out our karmas.
Jonathan
Malryn (Mal)
October 27, 2003 - 12:47 pm
GINNY, I've seen the Ground Force show where Alan Titchmarsh, Charlie Dimmick, Tommy, and the rest transform Nelson Mandela's garden to a beautiful spot. The tribal chief (a woman) comes and blesses the land and plants a tree. A young artist paints a kind of totem. There is built a beautiful "Watah Featcha", as Charlie calls it. Nelson Mandela is aging in this segment, having a little trouble walking, but ever dignified and full of charm. He appeared to like the transformation of his garden. His wife, who helped make Ground Force's presence possible, is a vivacious something else. One of the most poignant parts of this is when Alan goes to the prison where Mandela spent 27 years. Can you imagine 27 years in a tiny cell? He had a garden there at the prison, and it is shown.
JONATHAN, so nice to see you. Someday I'll nudge your memory and remind you who I am. ; )
Mal
Persian
October 27, 2003 - 10:14 pm
On the other hand, Ginny, your green letters would fit right in, since Ramadan began this week. Or if you belong to the Greens.
Ginny
October 28, 2003 - 05:30 am
How about this one? YAY Jonathan I do see your post, it's working again (but just to be sure I went back to my green marker) how about this color for Gandhi? It's natural, like the earth?
What a provocateur you are, "other was the redeeming incarnation of whatever Hindu deity." An avatar? Gandhi as Avatar? I must consult my notes on the Buddha and the guy who started Jainism, originally (apparently?) Buddha was not regarded AS a god, what a fascinating fascinating culture and set of religions, the deeper you go the more exotic and amazing it becomes, I am DEPENDING on all of you and our Ella, an expert in discussing non fiction, to HELP us out here.
Malryn, so you have seen it, Tichmarsh seemed to indicate that Mandela (in person, you seem to indicate he did not dance around in glee) was overcome by it (as you said, he seemed to like it). I saw a series of outtakes where they said the reactions they liked most were those, like of the Mexican lady in America, so full of joy (they have rerun that one a billion times) but Tichmarsh said his favorite was Mandela, thank you for that.
Mahlia, I had no idea that colors indicated anything and so will be trying to be....how about blue??
ginny
Hats
October 28, 2003 - 06:36 am
From the very beginning, I see Gandhi as a very thoughtful person. His caring, respect for his parents is very moving. He cares deeply about whether his actions will hurt another person. What a role model!! This would seem to be a great autobiography for required reading in schools.
Joan K's word "complete" in describing Gandhi is a perfect fit.
Lou2
October 28, 2003 - 06:48 am
Our daughter was home this weekend discussing her week on the road... A comment she made sent me straight to Gandhi... she copied the page to take with her. Does that say we have has much to learn from him as the Indians of his time? Or????
Lou
Jonathan
October 28, 2003 - 12:14 pm
Yes, indeed, we have much to learn. As well as getting much useful advice in very practical matters. Along with being a destroyer of empires, and a stalwart upholder of human dignity, he comes through even as a worthy second opinion in health matters.
My persistence has paid off. I was aware that Gandhi had a cure for asthma, without knowing the details. With a friend who suffers from that ailment and who is not entirely happy with what his doctor has prescribed for him, I thought I might do him a favor (the friend, and perhaps the doctor as well) if I could find more information to pass along to him. And I have. Louis Fischer, in his bio, mentions Gandhi's cure for asthma: 'a diet of rice, milk, and marmalade for a month'. It seems to have worked for the one who came to Gandhi for help. Fischer has Gandhi boasting about it years later.
Who made more use of symbols than Gandhi? Color can indeed make all the difference. It was the green they were wearing that quite possibly saved the lives of Lord Mountbatten and his wife, Edwina, when they confronted that hostile crowd, soon after arriving in India as viceroy and vicreine. They seemed to think so. But I'm getting ahead of the story. Sorry.
Jonathan
PS: Hi, Mal
POTSHERD
October 30, 2003 - 10:43 am
The following description by Roman Rolland as noted in “Gandhi’s Truth” by Erick H. Erikson
Soft dark eyes, a small frail man, with a thin face and rather protruding eyes, his head covered with a white cap. his body clothed in coarse white cloth, bare-footed. He lives on rice and fruit, and drinks only water. He sleeps on the floor-sleeps very little, and works incessantly. His body does not seem to count at all, There is nothing striking about him-except his whole expression of “ infinite patience and infinite love.” W.W. Pearson, who met him in South Africa,instinctlvely thought of St. Francis of Assisi. There is an almost child-like simplicity about him. His manner is gentile and courteous even when dealing with adversaries, and he is of immaculate sincerity. He is modest and unassuming, to the point of sometimes seeming almost timid, hesitant, in making an assertion. Yet you feel his indomitable spirit. He makes no compromises to admit having been in the wrong....Literally “ ill with the multitude that adores him” he distrusts majorities and fears “mobocracy” and the unbridled passions of the populace. He feels at ease only in a minority, and is happiest when, in meditative solitude, he can listen to the “still small voice” within.
This is the man who has stirred three million people to revolt, who has shaken the foundations of the British Empire, and who has introduced into human politics the strongest religious impetus of the last two hundred years.4
It is interesting to speculate if Gandhi may have studied / read of The American Colonies approach in obtaining their independence from Great Britain.
Today India like most countries of the world have major stocks of weapons
While Martin Luther King successfully emanated the Gandhi doctrine and obtained civil rights for a minority population it would appear the world desperately needs someone or some country that understands peaceful ways of solving problems. Unfortunately we and the peoples of the world live in uncertain times.
4. See Roman Rolland, Mahatma Ganghi: The Century Company, 1924 pp 3-5
Ginny
October 30, 2003 - 01:15 pm
Jonathan, YOU are incorrigible, hahahaha, and incredible, but now I thought Gandhi abhorred milk? ??!!?? Seems like he goes on and on about it, but did use it then renounced it? Or...I need to read it again, every time I read about his diet I get caught up thinking about Thomas a Becket and distracted!!! I'm rereading each part right before the discussion so I will be fresher on it and will try to keep my mind on one saint at a time!! I can't WAIT to get into this, and today am taking Gandhi out in the woods for a quiet read under the gorgeous foliage, and read Part I again, and I have a new book on Gandhi with a billion new quotes, not too many of which I understand, heck, we could look at one a day, but I personally will do well to understand anything he says. Did you see that quote in Book Bytes? I loved that.
Potsherd, what an absolutely WONDERFUL quote, so he immediately thought of St. Francis of Assisi, amazing. I wonder if all.....hmmmm I better wait till the 1st but thank you SOO much for that, it's magic.
Three MILLION people to revolt and it's still said of him that he had the one weapon England could not fight. We're about to find out how one man starving himself brought an entire nation to its knees, I hope that I, at least, understand why, when we're thru!
The disciplined and enlightened mind, that's us, when this is over!!
ginny
Ella Gibbons
October 30, 2003 - 09:25 pm
Tonight I watched another film about Gandhi and India and if you can get it anywhere I would heartily recommend it. It is part of the GREAT DAYS OF THE CENTURY, produced by Vision 7 for the HUMANTIES AND SCIENCES and is 45-minutes of actual footage of India and Gandhi from the turn of the century until 1948 when he was assassinated. It is narrated, of course, and even has the footage of Gandhi's interview in London while he was on a tour of Europe in 1931. You have to turn the volume up as far as it will go to hear Gandhi's quiet, small voice. While in Rome, he met Mussolini!
The film portrayed the country dismally and absymally - floods, famime, revolts, killing, civil wars between the Hindus and Moslems and also showed the terrible riots that took place (all the time actually), but especially when and until Pakistan was declared independent.
11 million people immigrated to Pakistan - what a mass movement - has there ever been one to equal that?
I'm getting excited about beginning our discussion!
Oh, please don't bring up his diet - the constant diet that Gandhi kept talking about endlessly and, of course, everytime he mentioned it my whole body quivered; it was almost as if it heard the word and was telling me something! Haha
Ginny and I have an on-going friendly argument as I said he wrote a boring book and she exclaimed in horror - "But, Ella, he was a saint!" I replied, "Could be, but he wrote a boring book."
We'll see how the division falls when all of you add your opinions! What fun!!
POTSHERD
October 31, 2003 - 07:51 am
Ella, the movement of the National Chinese people from mainland China to Formosa ( now Taiwan)in 1949 was huge.
Any way it was the movement of a defeated original nation by Mao and a communist regime . The numbers probably don't match with the Pakistan emigration however there is a similarity .
I left Shanghai and our old station in Tsingtao in northern China. In 1947 in Tsingtao Mao's troops at that time were in the countryside .
Jonathan
October 31, 2003 - 01:37 pm
And the Reading Schedule above holds out the promise of Nirvana in the end. I hope the promise will turn out to be more substantial than Ella's promise that the snow would be flying by the time we got underway in this discussion. And here we're having a lovely summer day in Canada, the Crown of the Americas. More specifically, Toronto, the Jewel in that Crown. In fact you might think of us as the Simla of America. In the park adjacent to our provincial legislature is a monumental statue of King Edward VII, on His horse, which was rescued, or should we say liberated, from...I believe it occupied a place of honor in New Delhi, perhaps even at Viceroy House...an ungrateful India was about to melt it down...
Now in the matter of Saints, I'll grant that Gandhi has something of St Francis about him. Thomas a Becket? I just can't see it, Ginny. Convince me. My choice as a role model for Gandhi would be Saint Joan of Arc...the inner voices, the mission to rid one's country of the English, and, sad to remember, the martyr's death. There may be other saints. And let's not forget Ginny's suggestion that Gandhi may in fact have been an avatar. It's a Hindu thing. And given the limitless pantheon of Hindu deities...well it behoves us all to remain very disciplined in this discussion, n'est ce pas?
I think I'll go out and rake some leaves.
Jonathan
Ginny
October 31, 2003 - 03:16 pm
I just finished reading Part I under our own leaves and I must say reading Gandhi is terrifically centering, last night on ESPN the Sports Channel right in the middle of a football game the commentators suddenly shouted out "WHAT WOULD GANDHI SAY??"
And then something that sounded like WAZOO or USC?
I betcha Gandhi would have straightened them up in a heartbeat!!
This is going to be fun fun fun, I have a million questions already and ELLA!!!! WHAT A FIND!! I have THREE MORE MOVIES on the way for you all to rent, one the A&E Biography, one the one Ella just saw (rated 5 stars, 1948 and Gandhi himself, what more could you ask) and one another biography of him, why ever not? I'll let you kmow when they all get in, we can IMMERSE selves in Gandhi!
(Seems like the rest of the world is, huh?)
Come in tomorrow and see what delights await!
ginny
Ginny
November 1, 2003 - 07:32 am
Well a bright good morning to you here on our first day of what I hope will be a super journey into understanding Gandhi, a man whom everybody has heard of but few understand, I hope we will emerge at the end bolstered by what you bring to the table and maybe understanding how this one man moved millions simply by refusing to eat, and conquered the British Empire without firing a gun.
….”of ships, and shoes and sailing wax, of cabbages and kings.” –Lewis Carroll
Where to begin? ( NB: The numbers in the parentheses do not refer to Parts but rather the little chaper divisions he uses, we'll get this fixed in the heading, we're only looking at Part I today but lots of tiny chapters)
“My hair was by no means soft, and every day meant a regular struggle with the brush to keep it in position.”
A bildungsroman is a novel about usually a young man's "coming of age," and shows the moral and psychological growth of the main character. This is not fiction yet it reads more strangely than any fiction! As we read it we may want to ask ourselves how this young man is different, if he is, from other autobiographies we have read? Where to betgin??
1. "What is the value of a vow made before an illiterate mother, and in ignorance of conditions here? It is no vow at all. It would not be regarded as a vow in law. It is pure superstition to stick to such a promise. And I tell you this persistence will not help you to gain anything here. You confess to having eaten and relished meat. You took it where it was absolutely unnecessary, and will not where it is quite essential. What a pity!"
(Part 14).
What vow is the speaker referring to? Is Gandhi's diet the result of his own picky eating habits, or does it have greater significance?
How do you explain such quotes as "He would tell me that he could hold in his hand live serpents (Part 6), cold defy thieves, and did not believe in ghosts. All this was, of course, the result of eating meat?"
What is this thing about "meat?" Why do the cows of India roam about freely when the people starve? What sort of religion IS this?
2. "A general meeting of the caste was called (Part 12) and I was summoned to appear before it. I went. The Sheth—the headman of the community—who was distantly related to me and had been on very good terms with my father, thus accosted me: In the opinion of the caste , your proposal to go England is not proper. Our religion forbids voyages aboard. We have also heard that it is not possible to live there without compromising our religion. One is obliged to eat and drink with Europeans!"
Were you surprised by this "meeting" of the caste people?
What IS caste and does it still exist today? What part in the lives of the residents of Gandhi's caste does religion seem to play?
Gandhi's mother worried over her son's departure for college: "Someone else had said that they took to meat; and yet another that they could not live there without liquor." (Part 11).
Every parent sending a child from the nest worries. Is there anything different about Gandhi's mother's worries from those of an American parent? What relationship did Gandhi seem to have with both of his parents?
3. "The outstanding impression my mother has left on my memory is that of saintliness." (Part 1)
What is a "saint?" Do they occur in religions other than Christianity? What are the characteristics of a saint?
4. Gandhi was a Hindu ("marriage among Hindus is no simple matter") (Part 1) yet he says "the opposition to and abhorrence of meat-eating that existed in Gujarat among the Jains and Vaishnavas were to be seen nowhere else in India or outside in such strength. These were the traditions in which I was born and bred." (Part 6).
Do you understand what the beliefs are of the Hindus, the Jains, and the Vaishnavas, and how they differ? Which religion seems to have influenced Gandhi most?
5. As we read the story all sorts of strange words and concepts spring out at us. Dr. Ed Jones has stated that India is "the most complex culture on earth." Do you understand or could you help us know what Gandhi means by any of the following?
"My father was a Diwan, but nevertheless a servant. " (Part 3)
"I began repeating Ramanama to cure my fear of ghosts and spirits." (Part 10) "a shrewd and learned Brahman…" (Part 11)
" …although I have had to handle public funds amounting to lakhs…" (Part 16)
"I was ploughed in Latin." (Part 16)
What "golden rule" does Gandhi say he follows at the end of Part 17?
"I had not read the Gita" (Part 19)
"An Indian pulse…" (Part 22)
What other terms or expressions do you find confusing?
6. What would you say, if pressed, in one word that you think sums up your perception of Gandhi so far in the book?
7. What is the doctrine of Ahimsa? "I also felt that it was quite moral to kill serpents, bugs and the like. I remember to have killed at that age bugs and such other insects, regarding it as a duty. (Part 10). We are all familiar with the stories of Albert Schweitzer's reluctance to step on an ant. How does Gandhi's understanding of Ahimsa differ from that practiced by the Jains and Dr. Schweitzer?
But one thing took deep root in me—the the conviction that morality is the basis of things, and that truth is the substance of all morality,. Truth became my sole objective." (Part 10).
Ginny
November 1, 2003 - 08:03 am
I apologize for the tremendous length of the heading, and I have asked Pat Westerdale to try to work some magic on it. In essence I was not sure how to begin, and I hope what I have asked also was something you wanted to talk about?
If NOT, please bring your own questions here and thoughts and we will put them in the heading as well.
Last night I watched Juggernaut, which was NOTHING whatsoever like I had remembered it!
Apparently the term is an Indian concept, and the spectacle of this nuclear core reactor moving (not pulled but on huge machinery) thru India to get to a place where it would provide water for the people was stunning. It's 20 minutes long and was shot in 1968, yet the people still use the oxen to draw their water, they are seen carrying not one but two water jugs on their heads, they are seen in stark contrast to the modern age. They had to chip away ancient monuments for the monster to pass, and move ancient arches, India is FULL of the most incredible palaces and construction, the Taj is by far not the only thing there of value, the whole country is full of it.
Women beating their wash on stones in the river, men selling cotton, making do with little, and everywhere you can see what appears to be thousands of people! Handsome people! I have never seen so many PEOPLE!! This morning Amazon says they are sending two of the documentaries on and the very minute I get them, (one of which Ella just saw, what a FIND) I'll put them up for your viewing pleasure and hope you will enjoy them, sorry about the backlog with the movies so far but am grateful anybody wants to view them, at all.
The movie last night said India has 1,600 dialects and I wonder if you caught Gandhi's own thougts at the end of Part 5 about the various languages the Indian has to learn?
I lfet out dhoti and Vakil in the heading but I don't know what they are, either, so we'll be getting up our own glossary, that's what Gandhi would do!! hahaaha Or is it? hahaahah
What are your thoughts this morning on Part I of the book?
ginny
Ginny
November 1, 2003 - 08:16 am
Using different colors to symbolize Gandhi's feeling of being one with all religions, I'd also like to request that you, when bringing here interesting URLS for us all to see, summarize or condense or quote from the articles somewhat as well, so that those of us who have extremely slow ISPs may get the drift immediately and then pursue the entire URL (some of them have many pages ) at our leisure?
Pat Westerdale is working up an HTML page which will have all of the URLS you submt on it!
ginny
ALF
November 1, 2003 - 08:19 am
Ginny, hang on, I am looking for my book as we speak.
YiLi4
November 1, 2003 - 08:34 am
It is pure superstition to stick to such a promise. And I tell you this persistence will not help you to gain anything here.
Reading this I wonder if a pesonal vow in a way is a superstition regardless of the place, time etc. I wonder further if when one makes a personal vow if one is asking some outside force to do the work of living for us. As I think about Ghandi's later life I imagine that though this statement suggests futility, somehow his early awareness of the limiting social and economic conditions moved him to make his mark in history.
JoanK
November 1, 2003 - 08:56 am
YiLi4: I read that quote differently. Once, as an exercise, I promised myself that for a week, I would do everything I said I would do and tell only the truth. I thought this would be trivial, since I am an honest person. Not so-- try it. The excuses you give yourself, saying "this isn't a lie, I'm just being polite" or "when I promised this, I didn't realize -------, no one can expect me to do it now" etc. etc. I think Gandhi is showing us how terribly difficult it is to be 100% (not 99%) honest and truthful. These are his first struggles with it, but unlike me he didn't give up.
ALF
November 1, 2003 - 10:47 am
You're right Joan, he perservered. there is such an important disctinction, isn't there betweeen religion and spirituality. One is connected so clsely with the teachings of dogma, rituals, prayer, etc and the spirituality is more the qualities of the human spirit, shall we say? Love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, etc. He did not do without the spiritual qualities. Ghandi said that his lasting impression of his mother was that of “saintliness." I’m sure that is because she was a god-fearing, virtuous woman.
She was devout and determined that nothing would interfere with her “vows.” Ghandi, himself was uncompromising when it came to vows, like his abstaining from eating meat, under any circumstance. He felt that a vow was a solemn promise not to be taken lightly.
Ella Gibbons
November 1, 2003 - 10:47 am
“No one’s life can be encompassed in one telling. There is no way to give each year its allotted wealth, to include each event, each person who helped to shape a lifetime. What can be done is to be faithful in spirit to the record and try to find one’s way to the heart of the man.”
This was at the very beginning of the movie, GANDHI, and I thought it appropriate to quote it as it is my opinion that this autobiography we are discussing cannot be the sum of this man’s life and it behooves us to explore matters not found therein.
Did any of you feel disappointment in that Gandhi (G) tells us so little of his childhood, his siblings, his teen years, what formed his character?
Do you believe his mother had the greatest influence on him as a youngster? She was deeply religious.
“The outstanding impression my mother has left on my memory is that of saintliness.”
“She would take the hardest vows and keep them without flinching. Illness was no excuse for relaxing them.” Is this – the mother – the root of G’s vows, and he had many throughout his lifetime, and he kept them.
If I am not in error, the cow is sacred in India, and one cannot eat beef??? Am I not right? Cows are walking all over in the movies, so we can understand G not eating meat, but as for the other types, he said that he found it so cruel to kill animals that he could not bear to eat their flesh.
I am having out-of-town company through the 6th so my posts will be sparse, but Ginny has all of you well supplied with material – questions, thoughts to ponder, and I hope we can all find the answers together.
This is going to be a discussion you and I will not forget for a long time!!
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 1, 2003 - 10:57 am
I wanted to start reading the book before we started the discussion and I found the French translation at my local library. It is very well done.
When Gandhi says that his sole objective is 'truth' I understand it to mean that through truth, he will be able to pursue his goals relentlesly. While he is constantly speaking about his diet he is perhaps saying that if he can master his stomach, he can master greater things as it is extremely hard to resist food what we love but is a luxury that makes you sick when eaten in excess.
To him fasting was a way of communicating to a multitude of Indians speaking over 1200 different dialects and only through that could his message be transmitted.
I think that keeping his promise to his mother of not eating meat was not only obedience to a woman he admired and loved but she instilled in him early on the importance of not being a glutton. He proved that eating meat is not necessary for living a long healthy life. Along with abstinence from meat came abstinence of several things that the body desires.
Fasting then became his ultimate weapon.
Eloïse
Ella Gibbons
November 1, 2003 - 11:04 am
WELCOME YILI AND JOAN AND ALF AND ELOISE!
I didn't see your posts before I had put in my comments - as I had typed them last night hurriedly.
Isn’t it fun to be here together discussing vows, little white lies, religion and spirituality (and it isn’t even Saturday or Sunday, which are all religious holidays!). hahaha
Thanks for your pertinent comments – this is going to be a wonderful discussion and I am so sorry I have to be in a hurry (last minute cleaning before I run to the airport today!)
kiwi lady
November 1, 2003 - 11:50 am
From what I have gathered in snippets from Indian immigrants I have known is that there are different sects within the Hindu religion.
For instance a couple we made friends with who used to live in our street ate lamb and chicken. Then there is the owners of our convenience store who eat no meat whatsoever. Both are Hindu families.
Karens parents arrive shortly from India so I will pick their brains. They have lived there for more than 10yrs so I am sure they will have much to tell me. Karens mother is very interested in Indian culture and loves the simpler people of the countryside. The woman in the convenience store is extremely devout and often I will go into the store and the incense is burning by the little figures of gods she keeps up on a shelf near the cash register. When she is minding the register she often has the radio on a sermon from some guru or other which is being broadcast on the local Indian station. This lady is extremely friendly and speaks very good English but her religion is the way she lives her life. I would say she is in Hindu terms a very saintly woman. She is in her late forties but her skin is like that of a young girl. Does this tell us something about eating a totally vegetarian diet?
Carolyn
JoanK
November 1, 2003 - 01:30 pm
Non-harming is part of the Buddist, so I assume also the Hindu, religion. This means not taking any life: hence the not-killing bugs (which must be really difficult in a hot climate like India) and not eating meat. But mystics (which Gandhi certainly became, although not at this point) of all religions have often stressed not eating meat, claiming one becomes more spiritual. As a meat eater, I don't know. My daughter has been a vegitarian for most of her life, and, while a wonderful person, I don't think it has made her more spiritual. She does eat some meat while she is pregnant for the baby, but it is hard for her. After so many years, she finds it discusting.
Out of ignorance, we once invited an Indian student for dinner, and offered him a nice bloody rare steak. He tried to eat it, but I will never forget the expression on his face
In Gandhi's case, I do think from what he said that he had a temprament which prepared him for the ascetic life he led.
Jonathan
November 1, 2003 - 01:35 pm
So many excellent questions in the heading, and I have to pick this one.
With hindsight one might even suspect that Hindus were perhaps taunting Muslims by allowing cows to be constantly underfoot. Or, perhaps, the owners were simply putting them out to pasture, knowing full well that religious feelings would provoke other Hindus into supplying provender. Or perhaps they were simply abandoned. What's the big deal? Here's what Gandhi has to say about cows:
'The central fact of Hinduism, however, is "Cow Protection." "Cow Protection' to me is one of the most wonderful phenomena in all human evolution; for it takes the human being beyond his species. The cow to me means the entire sub-human world. Man through the cow is enjoined to realize his identity with all that lives. Why the cow was selected for apotheosis is obvious to me. The cow was in India the best companion. She was the giver of plenty. Not only did she give milk, but she also made agriculture possible. The cow is a poem of pity. One reads pity in the gentle animal. She is the "mother" to millions of Indian mankind. Protection of he cow means protection of the whole dumb creation of God. The ancient seer, whoever he was, began in India with the cow. The appeal of the lower order of creation is all the more forcible because it is speechless. "Cow Protection" is the gift of Hinduism to the world; and Hinduism will live so long as there are Hindus to protect the cow.' (Young India, October 6, 1922)
Question 4. 'Which religion seems to have influence Gandhi most?' I would say it was Christianity.
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 1, 2003 - 01:45 pm
You've made an interesting comment, Joan. Gandhi would agree with you. In the same article he also had this to say:
'Unfortunately, today Hinduism seems to consist merely in "eating" and "not eating"...abstemiousness from meat is undoubtedly a great aid to the evolution of the spirit...'
Jonathan
JoanK
November 1, 2003 - 02:07 pm
Lois Fischer writes that Gandhi "did not learn essential things by studying. He was a doer, and he grew and gained knowledge through action. The Gita, Hinduism's holy scripture, therefore became Gandhi's gospel, for it glorifies action." (from The Essential Gandhi").
If you have not read the Gita, I recommend it. It is very short but very interesting. It lays out the basic principals of the religeon, including ethical principals like "ahimsa" as part of a path of spiritual growth.
I don't think Gandhi's idea of "ahimsa" is different. I see this book as a confession. he is telling us every bad thing he ever did, including stepping on bugs. For him as an adult, his view as a child is inconsistant, to refuse to eat meat but kill bugs.
kiwi lady
November 1, 2003 - 02:23 pm
I was brought up to be a vegetarian and did not eat meat until I was five years old. My father threw in the towel and demanded meat or I am sure that I never would have eaten it. Then again for three years to help a health issue of my late husbands we did not eat meat. I must admit that we were very slim and did not have many colds etc we also had a lot more energy than when we ate meat. I now find that red meat is hard for me to eat and digest. A steak does not appeal to me much at all.
Ann Alden
November 1, 2003 - 07:06 pm
Here's is a site with an explanation of the Hindu belief in honoring the cows. Gandhi seems to have said that they were given to us as a blessing from the sub-world(underworld?) I believe that it says in this article that the cows were gifts from the gods!
India's Sacred Cows
TigerTom
November 1, 2003 - 07:17 pm
Cows.
In India, when a Cow wanders into a Department Store a
Priest is called to move it. He is the only one who can
do this. Same as a Cow fouling up Traffic. Priest is called
to move the cow.
Saying among westerners: If a choice comes between hitting
a Cow and hitting a Human with your Car take the Human.
Tiger Tom
kiwi lady
November 1, 2003 - 09:22 pm
Mm this man Ghandi was certainly a very complex character.
The "religions" mentioned above are all branches of Hinduism much as we have branches of Christianity ie Anglican, Roman Catholicism, Methodism, Fundamentalist and so on.
Meat eating. It is said by many natural therapists that meat in particular red meat takes a long time to digest. Therefore toxins from the meat stay in the system longer. I know myself I do not digest red meat well. I also find red meat makes me sluggish. Today beef is injected with growth hormone in many countries. This puts me personally off red meat and I try not to eat too much of it. I do eat it if I am having dinner at someones home.
I know that Hindu's would be repulsed if you served them up beef and I myself would never do so. It would be culturally insensitive to say the least.
The cows do enjoy a privileged lifestyle in India. Indians I know use a lot of milk. Cows are prized for their milk giving as well as their religious significance. My Indian friends had coffee made with hot milk and also milky tea. They ate a lot of home made yoghurt and used it in their cooking also. Cows can be seen resting on Traffic islands in the cities or standing in the middle of the street holding up all the traffic. Nobody moves them.
Ghandi's deprivations to me serve only one really meaningful purpose in his life and that is self discipline which later in his life would enable him to go on his hunger strike. I do think he went a bit overboard in his vegetarianism. I wonder if he had a constant iron deficiency he does not mention so far eating many beans or pulses. He does mention spinach which is a good source of iron.
He seemed also to live in a constant state of guilt and not really accepting any forgiveness. To me he was a man in bondage to his himself and his, I think unattainable for us humans, ideals.
Jonathan
November 1, 2003 - 10:22 pm
Ann, your link provides the most interesting information about the cow in a Hindu society. I had no idea of all the reasons why the cow is worshipped. And the many benefits...gau mutra is a well-known disinfectant, has medicinal use, including the use of it in treating eczema. Gobar is a good insect repellant. Keeps reptiles away. When used as fuel for cooking the smoke clears the air. Lakshmi, the goddess of wealth, resides in it. In the gobar, not the smoke.
Apparently there is a darker side. The Satya Magazine link at the bottom of the page gives a distressing picture of the abuse of cows. Including:
'Abandoned cattle wander everywhere, searching for food, along with other cattle whose urban families are landless. Many are hit by traffic or develop serious internal injuries from consuming plastic bags, wire and other trash.'
An Agriculture official was asked about the deplorable situation and he replied:
'One should understand and accept the cows in the street as yet another paradox of contemporary India...this bane of modern times...a shame that the cow is treated so badly.'
Actually it was a vicious practice to extract more milk from the cow, which caused Gandhi to switch to goats milk. Gandhi was a revolutionary and a reformer; but how much can you do?
Jonathan
anneofavonlea
November 2, 2003 - 12:08 am
I think Gandhi a simple man. We are delving here trying to find complexity, where I think none existed.
As far as excellent writing, guess this biography does have little to offer, but the simple content overwhelms me.
Why are we so surprised that he seems obsessed with food, is that not the thing which makes fasting so unattainable to us. A simple diet is almost impossible for most of us to follow, he was forever hungry.
Saintliness is a characteristic, not something bestowed by others.It suggests a closeness to God and a higher purpose.It is certainly not the property of christianity, although paralells exist between Jesus and Gandhi, not the least of these what they both achieved by simply "walking" amidst their people.
As for his imposing his ideals on his wife, the talk of removing her at one point, taken out of context of their long marriage, might well imply that. However there are numerous passages which show exactly the opposite is true, and ghandiji sort to never foist his ethical tenets on to others.He once said. "I am a puritan in myself, yet catholic to others."
His mother certainly influenced him, and he seemed always to have a feminine side. Those who criticised Gandhi were most adamant that he was too female and soft in his attitude.He certainly is very aware in this autobiography of his own failings, painfully honest with himself but i dont see guilt. Those who are made to feel guilty by religion, (we catholics eg) are stifled in what we do.Gandhi wasnt.
I find it interesting that like or dislike him, few take away his title Mahatma, meaning Great Soul.
isaac
November 2, 2003 - 02:26 am
I am following it carefully, even if I can't contribute much. His personal life doesn't mean anything to me, because:
1: There have been "saintly" characters in the world; who would be prosecuted as war criminals if they were alive today. For example, Torquemada the Christian and Talurlane, the Turk. I am NOT mentioning examples of living politicians in all three monotheistic faiths, for fear of diverting the discussion.
2: There have been "saintly" characters who were kind to animals (and to people) who acted the opposite of Torquemada. To name one: St. Francis of Assissi.
St. Francis's dealings with the terrible Sultan of Egypt who defeated and imprisoned so many crusaders including the King of France (St. Louis), should be an object lesson to modern politicians - therefore, our ordinary history books will NOT tell us this story !
Another one like him, was the "horrible" Emperor Frederick II - who "charmed" the Muslims controlling the Holy Land into conceding rights to Christians and Jews, without fighting them! The result is that Frederick was attacked for not going to war - even though he had achieved the ends sought by the Pope!
(BTW, he charmed the muslims with his command of Arabic Poetry, his taste in good-looking young people of both sexes, and his chivalry: he landed in Palestine not with a huge army but with poets, dancing girls and jugglers!)
Gandhi's one and only achievement is that he negotiated with the British in an honorable way - without spilling a single drop of blood. It also redounds to the honour of England that they let India go ( The Brightest Jewel in the British Crown) without a fight.
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 06:11 am
I agree with Isaac (welcome, Isaac!!! ) that this is a fabulous discussion, and all of your points are very exciting and well taken., can't wait to get into them.
I hope that we can get a little behind the surface of our understanding of Gandhi. I, at least, having been told in two courses now that Gandhi was a very complex, shrewd genius that nobody should underestimate, hardly know what to think: I hope our journey into his life will provide us all with new insights and appreciation of his character.
Certainly the focus of his entire life was dedicated toward one simple goal and which he states over and over:
What I want to achieve—what I have been striving and pining to achieve these thirty years—is self –realization, to see God face to face, to attain moksha (frredom from birth and death. The nearest English equivalent is 'salvation.'")
But he also had other goals as well, and that's where the complexity, or so I am told, comes in. I very much like Anneo's point about the simplicity of his nature, I agree, so how can I also say he is complex? I hope, Anneo, you will stay with us and we can enjoy talking about the various points that are brought up! I know you are a fierce defender of a position and I am so graetful to see one expressed, thank you!! This is the kind of thing that makes discussions exciting, to me: articulate presentation of points of view and learning.
I am reading a new book on Gandhi which I urge all of you to get. It's by the "Distinguished Professor of South Asian History Emeritus" Stanley Wolpert and is dated 2001. It begins with Gandhi saying, "Who listens to me today?....And why should they?" in 1947. It's called Gandhi's Passion, and seems, incredibly, to follow and to explain Gandhi's own book!?!
Before we get to your own excellent points, here are a few eye openers from the book apropos to what YOU are saying?
He never planned far ahead. "One step is enough for me," he often said, quoting the last words of the hymn he loved best, "Lead, Kindly Light," by John Henry Cardinal Newman. He waited at all times for instructions from his "inner voice" before making his next move.
Gandhi's genius for symbolic gestures was never wiser than [his] experiment in Hindu-Muslim cohabitation.
Spoiled from infancy by his adoring mother, sisters and aiya (nurse), Gandhi naturally assumed that all women, including his young and equally willful bride, would obey his merest wish as regal commands, doing exactly what he desired, without hesitation or argument. Kasturba, however, proved more than a match for his male chauvinism, petulance and egotism. Like him, she had been reared as a Vaishnava princess. Though she lacked formal education, she was braver than her young husband, who had never slept in the dark without nightmares, fearing attacks from demon ghosts or giant snakes. She could be just as stubborn and long-suffering as he was. In some ways, especially concerning the rearing of children, she was much wise and more compassionate.
The Gandhis had always been strict vegetarians, as are all devout Hindus. Mohan's (Gandhi's name) mother, however, was particularly strict about her diet, often undertaking prolonged as well as regular daily fasts in the more monastic Jain tradition to which she personally was attracted. "Gandhi's later use of fasting as a political weapon was one of his mothers' legacies"
Gandhi's profound problems with his eldest son, Harilal—who would convert to Islam, change his name, and become a drunkard as well as a wastrel—were attributed by psycho-historian Erik Erikson to the boy's identification with Sheikh Mehtab, his "saintly" father's "murdered self." Gandhi's ambivalence toward the powerful influence of his "friend" certainly remains on the of the most puzzling questions about the formation of his complex personality.
His Aiya (nurse) Rambha had taught him the refuge of reciting Rama's name (Ramanama) The last word Gandhi would utter [this is in dispute] after he was shot would be "Ram."
His vegetarianism was rooted in the Hindu reverence for cows. Much later, when asked to define Hinduism, Gandhi said that it was "cow-worship." He called the cow "a poem of pity," as Jonathan noted in his excellent quote, and, as did all devout Hindus, considered it divine.
And here's a shocker? Lured back to Delhi by appeals from the new viceroy seeking Gandhi's wise advice on how to stop the killings (in 1947) Bapu (meaning "little father') offered it. But Mountbatten was staggered by what this naked "old fool" told him He consulted Nehru, who explained that the "old boy" was "out of touch" and could hardly be taken seriously when he urged the viewroy immediately to replace his own Congress ally and heir with their most hated Muslim League enemy Jinnah. Mountbeatten agreed, understanding little more about India than what Nehru, Nehru's closes comrade, V.K. Krishna Menon, and his own clever wife, Lady Edwina, explained to him. They all agreed that Gandhi was a saint but saints should never indulge in practical politics or govern nations, should they?"
The subject of Lord Mountbatten and his lovely wife Edwina are the equivalent of a loaded hand grenade in conversation about India's history: totally dependent on who you talk to. I hope to emerge from this discussion also more knowledgable about what he did (and did not do).
That’s all in the first 19 pages and there's more more, a Diwan, which is what Gandhi's father was, was a "Prime Minister," and Gandhi's father, Karamchand ("Kaba") Gandhi was a man of power and pomp, prime minister of the princely Indian state of Porbandar in Gujurat.
On the subject of religions of India, also I think we will learn a great deal from this discussion, I know nothing about Hinduism, having missed the class in that, and therefore must depend on you all to fill us in, but do have some very interesting things about Buddhism that may surprise you and certainly we can see from Gandhi's own statements that Jainism perhaps, and Vaishnavasm, while sharing some of the tenets of Hindusim, took some precepts a bit farther. Gandhi makes a particular point of pointing out those two influences on his life, so I think we will want to look at them, also.
I will paste here some of the more interesting elements of my last class in Jainism, for your interest.
At Oxford they said that Gandhi was a genius of promotion, a conclusion drawn by just looking at his press releases alone and their timing, we must not underestimate this man. I hope that we can emerge with ONE new thing learned about him at the end of this trip together. And now, on to the best part, your own posts!!!
Ann Alden
November 2, 2003 - 07:16 am
If you have read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse, you see Gandhi's life as similar to the Budda's. Siddhartha founded the Buddist faith in 586BC, and its main goal is to become selfless. His name means, "He who has attained his goals". The beliefs are very similar, they don't eat meat or any derivatives thereof, they don't believe in violence or war. The Buddist faith was very popular in India when it was first practised. Siddhartha finds peace and wisdom with total humilty are the way to live. Selflessness!!
Jonathan
November 2, 2003 - 01:11 pm
Wasn't that too true at the end. Only the masses, his people, or those who were within reach of his voice, who were heeding him. Events had passed him by. He had played his role. He was never that great at the political negotiating table. Left behind to die of a broken heart. It was all ending in violence, despite the lifetime of preaching and admonishing. He had died before the asassin's bullet got to him.
Was he a complex man? I'll go along with AnneO's assessment. I'm inclined to see the simplicity for which he was always striving. But his methods must have seemed complex to everyone who had dealings with him. M A Jinnah was always suspicious. British authorities always perplexed. His friends, like Nehru and Patel, puzzled more often than not.
Asked for the one word that sums him up, I would take him at his own word and suggest 'truth-seeker'. (mind the hyphen, it's very important). And how disarming that is. What a fine neutral and meritorious arguing position that is from which to confront ones opponents and those whom he wished to convince. And it would also permit him to say: I am a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew. And with his brilliant, legal mind it would also make it possible to be all things to all men.
One has to love him for his simple message of love, as well as his courage to defy injustice or turn the other cheek. To go for that win/win, out of court settlement - while finding a rationale for provocation and civil disobedience, just this side of violence - by his definition.
Isaac...as for 'letting India go without a fight', I think the British should acknowledge that except for Gandhi's patience and restraining influence, they might never have gotten out of India alive. But perhaps more on that another time.
Jonathan
jane
November 2, 2003 - 01:21 pm
I've been following this discussion and the subject of meat-eating and I came across the following about Coetzee, the winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature this year. Because of copyright regulations, I've just included a bit below. Click the link for the full article.
Source: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/10/12/the_novelist_and_the_animals/
... We suspect that in tasting the flesh of a living thing, we may also be tasting sin. Hence all the religious taboos on eating various kinds of meat, founded on "a fear that forbidden flesh -- flesh that has not been properly killed and ritually pronounced dead -- will continue to live some kind of malign life in one's belly."
Jonathan
November 2, 2003 - 01:42 pm
In my newspaper just the other day:
'Kenneth Baxter Wolf, a history professor at Pomona College: "There was something about Francis that bugged me for a long time," said Wolf, author of a new book, The Poverty of Riches: St.Francis of Assisi Reconsidered. Prof Wolf criticizes St.Francis, son of a wealthy merchant, for imitating the poor, an act that brought him adulation, rather than using his reaources to alleviate poverty. For instance, he says, St.Francis "hung out with lepers to make a statement to his former social class. This did nothing for the lepers, but everything for Francis...The kind of spirituality that Francis represents may be doing more harm than good." '
Did Gandhi do more harm than good. The Untouchables in India feel that he let them down. Is that believable?
Jonathan
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 01:44 pm
In Edit: HO!! Jonathanji!! I can't keep up with you what a super post and question, let me get this posted and put that in the heading! NOW to the best part, your own posts!!
(Don't you LOVE the expression on his face in that upper left photo, by the way? I love that cockiness, and obvious intelligence?)
Now Ella has asked who we think influenced him the most, and that's a terrific question and hard to answer.
I think any child who loved his mother and who waited for the sunrise so that she could eat only to see the sun did not rise and to be told, that's OK God does not want me to eat today, would have been, IF he admired her, profoundly impressed. Isn't there something somewhere about children take after the parent they most admire?
Now on his father, that's a bit harder. It would seem that the young man who wanted to go into medicine and enjoyed nursing, felt, when he left his father's death bed and engaged in sex, forever cursed by that, and some psychiatrists think THAT is the reason he turned so adamantly to brahmacharya in his life?
I don't know.
I do know as a mother of sons, how gratifying it must have been to his own mother for him to take the vow he made to her after she consulted the Swami or Guru, "to never touch wine, women or meat" while in England.
YiLi, wonderful point on any vow, the book How We Die makes much of the futility of death bed promises tho we have all seen how people are affected by them. I like your take on what motivated Gandhi, thank you.
Joan, WOW, love your own experiment with truth and you are soo right, we THINK of ourselves as totally honest yet we….fail. We simply do not say, (out of kindness?) what we really are thinking and I think you are right that he's showing us his real struggle, and it IS honest, isn't it? Thank you for that super point, it makes me want to TRY to do it even one day but I know I can't, maybe my own mind is too sharp or critical but I would not hurt anybody if I could help it, (maybe that's the point! Change your thinking!!
Super points and Andrea, there is a distinction between religion and spirituality? Would you say you can have one without the other?
Ella wonderful questions, enjoy your sister and we look forward to your incisive posts!@
Eloise, we will want to ask you sometimes about the difference in the French translation, I think it's wonderful you are reading along in FRENCH!!
I love your take on if he can master the body he can master greater things, I think you are absolutely right. In fact his entire thing seems to be about resisting temptation, and he SEES meat, etc., AS temptations, not every young man would? But then when you say it became his ultimate weapon, the thing I don't yet understand is WHY? If I fast and give up meat, who would care? That's the part where I hope to learn more, thank you for those super comments! What's the French word for FAST does it mean what the English one does or does it connote something different?
Carolyn, good point about the different sects within the Hindu religion, PLEASE PLEASE do ask Karen's parents about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING they would share with us, that seems almost too much to hope for but hope springs eternal!
On the devoutness, in my class I was asking one of the Indian professors about the high pitched singing in the Bolllywood productions and he invited me to their temple, where EVERY NIGHT they do the puja (which I think is a form of devotion) and then there's the religious singing, etc. Every NIGHT!
Joan, I like your point on how non harming or ahimsa is a part of the Buddhist and probably Hindu religion, I have some notes on the similarities to give you all today (assuming I can read them) and you're right, they are similar in many ways.
Jonathan, thank you about the questions and thank you for picking one. Isn't that interesting on Cow protection, it seems to me that somewhere I heard that the cow is another incarnation but it also gives economic reason, they use the milk and the dung and the cow is actually a walking cash crop, or so I recall but I could be, (and often am) TOTALLY wrong, thank you for that!!
do you think Gandhi was more influenced by Christianity or Jainism? That's a super point, let's look at the different beliefs, I would have said that Gandhi found in Christianity a mirror of his own beliefs, that's why he was able to espouse so much of it, but the jury (in my case) is still out!
more
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Joan, thank you for the Gita, which I think is short for the Bhagavadgita (talk about spelling, it took me ages to find that!?!) I have not read it in years, maybe we should try? Do any of you have a copy of it? It's in Sanskrit and they say the 1962 and '54 translations are to be avoided, and the '44 Edgerton is the best.
I took a course in Indian literature a long time ago and tremendously enjoyed the amazing, just amazing variety of the writings, and the creativity, do you remember any of it? I don't, unfortunately. It's a conversation between Krishna, an avatar of Vishnu, and a soldier about to enter battle, I bet it's on the internet, maybe some of us could read it and bring here a few lines from time to time?
Ann thank you for the wonderful llink on cows. I'll be darned, it's a celestial being, not an incarnation, there are more (or so the documentary said, ) than a million gods in India. Whoops, the article says there are 330 million gods and goddesses!! I'll be darned, thank you for bringing that here!
Tom, thank you for those in person reflections of how it is to live in India, how fascinating!
Carolyn, good point about the branches of the different religions, wait till you see what I have for today!
I agree about guilt and Gandhi, he seemed very hard o himself!
Oh good point Anneo on the walking amongst the people, that was a big thing with Gandhi and maybe THAT'S what made him so influential? It allowed more people to know who he was?
I love your referring to him as Ghandiji, I had to ask and did not know that the "ji" on the end means "Sir."
Oh good point also on the Great Soul designation which, strangely or perhaps not so strangely he did not like and said it caused him problems.
Isaac, you don't think Gandhi would be prosecuted as a war criminal today, do you? Who did he hurt?
Now then, you say, "Gandhi's one and only achievement is that he negotiated with the British in an honorable way" oh I think I will cordially disagree, I wonder if we can come up with other achievements that Gandhi did in his lifetime, thank you for throwing out that challenge, let's see, by the end of the discussion, if we can rise to it!
The problem of caste is a strange one, do any of you have any information on it, we're going right thru the questions, (do you all have any you'd like to pose to the group??) Apparently caste still exists today but not like it did, what is YOUR thought on caste in 2003?
Ann, I have not read that, thank you for bringing Siddhartha by Herman Hesse to our attention. Both Siddhartha Gsutama and Mahavira (the founders of Buddhism and Jainism, respectively) had a lot in common. Gandhi did not wish to attract converts, and Siddhartha never thought of himself as a god and was not thought of as a god for quite a while. The religions of India are fascinating!
Jonathan, I love your one word description of Gandhi, but why is the hyphen in 'truth-seeker' important? Truth AND seeker? I like that?
Jane, WELCOME!!! I am so glad to see you here, and thank you so much for that interesting article, the very concepts in this day and time are fascinating: this is quite a fascinating subject, and I have enjoyed also Carolyn's remarks on being a vegetarian, it seems you can have all sorts of reasons, including religious!
Jonathan, in responding to Isaac's phrase, "as for 'letting India go without a fight', I think the British should acknowledge that except for Gandhi's patience and restraining influence, they might never have gotten out of India alive. But perhaps more on that another time. I think I would like to add that there WAS a hideous fight and loss of life and that I agree that without Gandhi and his influence and his fasts the casualties would have been much higher, maybe astronomical.
(Jonathan you would LOVE Wolpert's book!!
More good stuff, look look!!
ginny
JoanK
November 2, 2003 - 01:56 pm
I think it is clear that Gandhi's religeosity and asceticism were influenced by his mother (although that is too simple). more relevant for us is: what were his intellectual influences? He tell us that it was the Gita, and I believe him. Since I can't find my old copy, I ordered a new one from Amazon. The same man who translated it, Eknats(sp?) Easwaran wrote a biography of Gandhi and books telling how to live by the principles of the Gita, which I haven't read. He also wrote a very simple book called "Meditation" giving techniques the same or similar to those Gandhi used which I do have and like.
The Gita is not like the Judo-Christian scriptures. It contains very little about the life of the times when it was written (as our scriptures do) and is almost pure philosophy and instructions for living. This is disappointing to me as a sociologist, but it makes the book short enough to be practical for this kind of reading (less than 100 pages if I remember). I like the quote of Gandhi as a doer, and to understand him I think we need to understand not just who he was, but the techniques he used to become that person.
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 02:10 pm
Well on St. Francis, I must say it's interesting that so many of these founders or saints seem to be men born of high status, Gandhi, St. Francis, Siddhartha Gautama (Buddhism) and Mahavira (Jainism) and who knows who else? I mean it's an entire course of study in itself!
OK here it IS, blink and it's gone, we're all supposed to be bringing to the table what we can: here is the sum total (in two posts) of my entire knowledge about these Indian religions, taken in class with notes from Dr. Sam Brill last week, this is IT!! Hahahahaha
Fill in my pitiful blanks because I can't READ my own writing, if it were not for the handout I'd be dead, here.
There are Vedic and Non Vedic Traditions in Indian Religion.
The Veda is the Hindu scriptures
Hinduism is monotheistic. God is one. There are no idols. One god may take many different forms and names, however. You focus on a particular aspect of God as revealed in that form. The many images are vehicles or a means by which you worship God. In Hinduism Jesus is seen as an Avatar: the human incarnation of God. Vishnu is the supreme god. Hinduism is known for its tolerance and exclusivity.
In Indian Cosmology Samsura is a cycle of existence including death and rebirth. We need freedom from this bondage to transcend the cycle (boy my handwriting is a mess) hahahaha
Moksha is Sanskrit: to be free from Samsura: heaven, the spiritual ultimate.
There are Three Ways the Hindus espouse to reach Moksha: The Way of Action: be good The Way of Knowledge: what we know can be liberating The Way of Devotion (Bhakti): Faith in God
All religions, Hindu, Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs embrace Samasara, Karma and Moksha.
There are two thoughts about Grace
These two approaches are called the Cat and the Monkey Model.
They have to do with how you can save yourself.
The Monkey Model is typically believed in Northern India.
When danger threatens, a baby monkey will jump on to its mother, the baby grabs on, and makes the step of jumping to safety and rides off on her back: Grace does not come cheaply or easily.
In Southern India Grace is seen more by the Cat Model:
When danger threatens the mother cat picks up the babies and carries them to safety.
These two ideas of Grace, whether earned by effort or the benefit of the gods, have been heavily debated for centuries, especially in the 10th and 11th centuries (and boy I wish I could read my writing!)
more….there's something about Shiva and Vishnu are self perfect and will not save you but I can't read it, we need to know more!!
….more
Jonathan
November 2, 2003 - 02:22 pm
Jane, that's a very interesting, but unsettling thing to read. It seems very appropriate to the discussion.
It serves as a reminder that Gandhi's first experiment with truth was his inclination to persuade the world to become vegetarian. As he makes clear in his Autobiography. That seems to have been his first mission. We hear of little else as long as he talks about his student days in England. Getting thrown off the train in South Africa turned his attention to other problems. But all his life...well he seems to have written more about eating than about national independence. And of course about helping people with their health problems. That's why it's so interesting to hear him say that his earliest ambition in life was to be a doctor. He played at being one, second guessing the professionals, etc.
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 2, 2003 - 02:30 pm
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 03:01 pm
In Edit, Joan we were posting together! I wold be grateful for any part of the Gita you wanted to bring here, do any of the others of you have any other of the Indian ancient writings you can quote! Whee! OK now I can read the handout a little better:
The Non Vedic Traditions (Veda is the Hindu Scriptures) Date from 2,500 years ago. They include Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism (founded in the 15th century).
Hindus accept the Vedas or scriptures, the Jains, and Buddhists reject the Vedas.
Jains
There are 5 milliono Jains in India and 98 percent of the Jains in the world are IN India. The vast majority of Buddhists now live outside India. Pakistan and Afghanistan also used to be Buddhist.
The founder of Jainism was Mahavira. Both he and Siddhartha Gautama (Buddhism) were born into princely households and in the 2nd caste (which I assume is good).
Mahavira was known as a Tirthankara: (one who builds a bridge) a way of action. The way to cross Samsura.
There are 5 Precepts, similar to some of the Bibical Commandments:
1. Do not steal< 2. Do not lie3.Do not engage in inappropriate sexual activity4. Renounce attachments (not possessions, but the attachment to them)5. Ahimsa (non violence). Non injury to others.
(I can't read my writing here, do those of you who know Buddhism know if the Buddhists "embrace ahimsa ," because i have the Buddhists embracing something and I'm not sure what?
Jain monks and nuns carry these precepts farther (remember Gandhi's mother was attracted to Jainism)
Most of the laity are attached to either the monks or nuns.
The Laity supply the nuns and monks with money.
There are extreme forms of Jainism. Shiktandara (sp) monks wear white and Degandera monks (not nuns) go nude. They pluck every hair off their body because it's impure and they might inadvertently sweep away an ant caught in the hairs. Gandhi was a Hindu but was exposed to extreme Jainism. Pain is seen as a worldly thing which is best overcome by the mind, thus documentaries of this hair plucking show no wincing.
Buddhism
Siddhartha Gautama's father wanted him to be the ruler, sheltered him from the unpleasantness of life. He had no exposure to sickness and growing old when he saw The Four Sights.
These were: a sick person, diseased and sufferingan old person in poor healtha corpse being cremateda Renouncer: one who has given up the world and is happy.
Siddhartha became a Renouncer and lived on alms. Now I have that "Buddha gave up fasting," do those of you who know Buddhism know if this is correct?
Much is made of the Tree of Knowledge where Buddha found enlightenment, it's in countless sculptures throughout India.
"Buddha" means "Awakened One."
He preached his first sermon which set in motion the Wheel of Dharma.
Enlightened at 33, he died 45 years later at 80 and passed into Nirvana.
He was not a god, but it was felt that Buddha has shown us what we need to do. The Hindus think Buddha is an Avatar of Vishnu.
Asoka (273-236 BC) the first great imperial ruler, became Buddhist and spread it to Afghanistan and everywhere he went, including almost all of India. Buddhism was overcome by Hinduism and the principles of it absorbed in to Hinduism, with the result that today there are very few Buddhists in India.
There are 5 precepts in Buddhism, of which Ahimsa is one, similar to the Jains, except that the non attachment of the Jains becomes non intoxicant of the Buddhists.
Then there are the 4 Noble Duka such as 1 . suffering or discontent 2. longing or desire3. stopping and taking control4. The 8 Fold Pathway, which consists of meditation, good morality and principles right views, etc.
With Buddhists the dot on the forehead is the third eye because Buddha can see more. Buddha never saw himself as divine.
The current flag of India has the wheel of Asoka on it today, which can be seen, among many other pieces of Buddhist art, in The Freer Gallery (sp?) in Washington DC.
That's about it, I must learn how to take better notes, is any of that at all helpful?
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 2, 2003 - 03:02 pm
This notion that Francis of Assissi was slumming with the poor, is sometimes attributed to theresa of calcutta as well.Strikes me as cynical, in the extreme, the poor are always with us.
It is very easy to offer our resources to the poor, most of us engage in sending money to world vision and the like, but to get our hands dirty, now theres a horse of a different colour.
Just how is it beneficial to these people to live amidst the poor. It is for one mightily uncomfortable. And do they do it for spiritual reasons, will if their motives are so far off, no god, christian or Hindi is likely to be impressed with such poor purpose.
For me, it always comes back to the notion, that we see more in Gandhi, and his ilk, than is ever there. its like looking at paintings and seeing ourselves reflected, an individuals response is coloured by their belief.
Having spent four years in another life, trying to become saintly, according to the rule of the order I was a member of, it eventually got through to me, that I may well become a reasonable human, but would always be a second rate nun.My reason was, that I could never subjugate myself to the will of others, never give away totally my individual wants.
As to why saints come from higher status, if one hasnt had that which is material in life giving it up is a nothing really.
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 03:05 pm
hahaha Jonathan and Jainism and Buddhism and Sikhism and Vaishnavites for Dummies, too! (Or for those who canNOT read a note of their handwriting!) hahaahaha
I'm actually thru now? hahahaah
ginny
Ginny
November 2, 2003 - 03:18 pm
Anneo! there you are, I am fascinated by your own experiences, heaven knows that I am a long way from sainthood, and thus are no judge, but half of what Gandhi says is incomprehensible to me and therefore I have to think there's more there than a simple weaver of cotton?? For instance, "This is the unmistakable teaching of the Gita. He who gives up action falls. He who gives up only the reward rises. But renunciation of fruit in no way means indifferent to the result. In regard to every action one must know the result that is expected to follow, the means thereto, and the capacity for it. He, who, being thus equipped, is without desire for the result, and is yet wholly engrossed in the due fulfillment of the task before him, is said to have renounced the fruits of his action."
Ok I acknowledge that I myself am a long way back on the wheel, but those are NOT the words of a simple man? Or are they? What do they mean?
ginny
kiwi lady
November 2, 2003 - 03:19 pm
I remember being told about the poor in India by Karens parents. Indians are not unduly bothered about poverty or helping the poor. Mother Theresa actually shamed some of her Indian donors into helping with her work. The reasoning behind the indifference to suffering and poverty is that Indian society believes those people who are born into poverty deserve their fate as they must have done something terrible in a previous life. I remember an old missionary telling me the same thing. I don't know if the Computer savy, internet literate younger generation think the same as their elders regarding poverty. I must question Karens parents more about the caste system. What is the reasoning behind it all and do people still observe the caste system to the same extent as they did in Ghandi's time. Karens parents go into the countryside as well as living in the cities.
anneofavonlea
November 2, 2003 - 03:25 pm
Ginny, knowing your task and peforming it without a need of reward, is my interpretation.We need our pats on the back, or at least I do, thank-yous make me soar.To do a task and not expect recognition is to me pointless, so I shall sadly never be a saint.
YiLi4
November 2, 2003 - 03:45 pm
Took me awhile to catch up with the posts, but really began to think about isaac’s post and the sense of the politic in modern religious missions. With Ghandi, I wonder if people most respect his spirituality, religiosity or his politics?
The wrestling with samsura outlined in Ginny’s post certainly reinforces the historical link of Hinduism and Buddhism, and The Tao appears to be a significant influence on both philosophies. Siddhartha Hesse’s literary character, revealed the ultimate enlightenment- The Middle Path. Mahayana (Middle Way) practitioners value bhodhisattva- this practice asks one to develop compassion for all sentient beings, a significant leap from the Hinayana philosophy of self development.
I think this wrestling and the challenge of self-development along with service to the masses is integral to Ghandi’s influence. His childhood as shared let’s us know he too was a flawed persona—but I wonder overall if Ghandi’s adult motivations were for his self-development spiritually- was his fasting to achieve personal realms of spirituality or was it done a gesture of connection and compassion for others.</f>
kiwi lady
November 2, 2003 - 04:27 pm
Anneo one of my philosophies in life now is always to thank those who do things for me. Also to give encouragement to others such as telling the Maori Mum next door what a great job she and her husband are doing the way they are raising their kids. If someone you see is doing something well why not tell them you notice it! If your cleaner does a great job of your house why not tell them what a great job they are doing and how you appreciate it. Tell the customer service officer who goes the extra mile for you how much you value his or her help and how grateful you are. Every human being needs encouragement it makes every day life worthwhile.
JoanK
November 2, 2003 - 05:50 pm
I know a little about Buddhism, not much. Buddha did give up fasting. When he started to look for the truth, he started with a program of extreme asceticism, including fasting. But he decided that this was just as extreme as a life of sensual indulgence, and that one should follow the middle way. (Remember, Gandhi was not a Buddhist.)
Buddhists do embrace ahisma.They do not eat meat or kill bugs. (Knowing that he was not allowed to kill a bug, I chuckle at the Haiku of Japanese Buddhist poet Issa:
In a large room
one man,
one fly.
TigerTom
November 2, 2003 - 09:14 pm
Personal thought,
I think that one of Ghandi's greatests steps came in
South Africa when he decided to stop trying to be an
English Gentleman and to return to being an Indian.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
November 3, 2003 - 05:27 am
Oh this is incredibly super! Many thanks for all the great submissions, I have two of my own this morning but will start with yours!
Whether we ourselves think of Gandhi as simple or complex may say more about our own selves than it does him, and I love it! Let's each of us keep our own opinion firmly in mind and see if anything adds to it or shakes it as we go, what lovely thoughts here today, let's look at a few and then some of his own words again, I am blown away by something I read last night.
Ann spoke of Selflessness!
Would you all say (or not) that the theory is man's ego gets IN the way of his quest to be closer to God and that's why so many of the saints (and we, I guess, should not be referring to Gandhi as a "saint" now as he's barely 19 and just off the boat from India) have so many difficulties (Jonathan here's where Becket and the hair shirt come in). And as Joan said, you don't realize how hard it IS till you try to just go one day completely truthfully, how could you do that and not hurt others? By changing the way YOU look at things? Boy talk about hard. In this world we don't have time for all that introspection, do we?
Or do we?
Maybe the "Seeker after truth" in all of us and not only all of us but the whole world, regardless of religious beliefs, respects a man who tried, and I don't think anybody can say he did not try?
I liked Jonathan's saying he tried to practice medicine and second guessed the doctors, I fear for our own lives when Andrea gets hold of his "treatments" for his wife, Andrea being a nurse, hold on to your chairs there!
Yesterday Jonathan mentioned Wasn't that too true at the end. Only the masses, his people, or those who were within reach of his voice, who were heeding him. Events had passed him by. He had played his role. He was never that great at the political negotiating table. Left behind to die of a broken heart. So of course I went to look and I was blown away last night in reading in the Wolpert (and again we will not get TO these events here reading only Gandhi's autobiography, but Tom will in his Freedom at Midnight, one of the texts at Oxford, which does go into all of the people and their positions, but last night I found to my shock that in October before he died in January, Gandhi not only desired to BE the Governor General of India (Mountbatten's position) but had convinced Mountbatten he SHOULD be?!? Mountbatten was ready to leave. The only obstacle was (!?!?!) Nehru. Nehru "never forgot that Gandhi believed Jinnah would have been a better prime minister of India (here is where "truth" spoken, can get you in trouble) than he was. With so many horrors of partition now grotesquely revealed, Nehru know Bapu had been right, after all. So less than a week after Mountbatten met with Gandhi and told him of his "desire to retire from the Governor-Generalship of India," Gandhi had to write Mountbatten the painful news that I have spoken to Pandit Nehru. But he is adamant. He is firmly of the opinion that no change should be made until the weather has cleared. If it does, it may take two or three months." The "weather" was the havoc wrought by partition's hurricane and the chaos left strewn across north India by tornadoes of intolerance. That would take more than "three months" to "clear," but three months was now all that Gandhi had left.
So!!!!!! Had it not been for Nehru's jealousy, and I am astounded to hear that, Gandhi at, what was it 77, would have become the Governor General of India!
I am astounded, just blown away here. I don't know what I am more astounded AT, Gandhi's ambition or Nehru's perfidy.
Nehru, who is always pictured sitting at the feet of his Bapu, or Little Father, of India? It would seem he did not learn all the lessons to be taught? No wonder Gandhi was despondent.
Jonathan's question about did he do more harm than good is fabulous and in answer to Isacc's challenge I'll be bringing in daily an example of what he did accomplish and I see that Tom has also, let's see how great a list we can get up, that's a super set of questions, Guys!
But all his life...well he seems to have written more about eating than about national independence. Jonathan I think we're only reading his early formative years, tho Ella notes that he doesn't say much about his sisters, etc. How many books DID Gandhi write? In his other books he talks quite a bit about independence and Richard Attenborough, after making the film Gandhi was moved to edit a book of his sayings arranged in topics and there's quite a lot on independence and I'll try to bring some of them here too! Do any of the others of you have any thoughts Gandhi said on independence, we are reading here a lot about food. (Have you ever noticed when you're on a diet all you can think about IS food? Hahahah And haven't we said he was always hungry?) But to deliberately starve yourself when you could eat for religious principles is a different kind of diet, or is it? Solely would you say SOLELY concerned with the vow made to his illiterate mother?
Ginny
November 3, 2003 - 06:14 am
"This is the unmistakable teaching of the Gita. He who gives up action falls. He who gives up only the reward rises. But renunciation of fruit in no way means indifferent to the result. In regard to every action one must know the result that is expected to follow, the means thereto, and the capacity for it. He, who, being thus equipped, is without desire for the result, and is yet wholly engrossed in the due fulfillment of the task before him, is said to have renounced the fruits of his action."
I love this passage which I had not seen until yesterday, because, to me, it has such delicious layers. I loved Anneo's take on do it not for the reward and her mentioning praise and thanks for a job well done, and, like Carolyn, I'm always thanking people, I've never wondered why, maybe I should.
But here Anneo and Carolyn, I ask, surely the reception of praise for a job well done is not the problem, but rather the problem is when a person does it only for the praise? And that in itself may be a temptation? In that when a person thanks you, you then become beholden to them? That's something I just noticed recently. Do you all agree? You find yourself working for THEM and/or your own glory, not for other principles?
But the difference, to me, is in the motivation. If you do something FOR the reward, then it would seem in Gandhi's eyes you would fail. This passage reminds me of the, was it Jain principle of renouncing attachments ? (OR, those of you who know more about Eastern Religion than I do, does it mirror another belief I don't know anything about??) It's said that many Jains had tons of attachments, and lived quite lavish lives, the theory was to renounce the desire for them and their importance. (You can see that some people spend a LOT of time on their personal development or WAY).
If you do something FOR the praise that results, Gandhi seems to be saying, you fail, but if you do it with a view to the possible end, acknowledging the purpose OF the action, but at the same time renouncing the result (this part here is very difficult for me: who, being thus equipped, is without desire for the result, and is yet wholly engrossed in the due fulfillment of the task before him, …well would you say the task is done FOR the result...but...but.... if you are not desirous of the result then why would you do the task in the FIRST PLACE??!!??
THEN are you saying that the journey is what's worth the time, not the end? Yet you undertake the journey FOR the end?
It's tricky, apparently.
(Can we see I am way down on yon wheel?) hahahaaha and speaking of yon wheel, here's a neato thing we can buy for $12.00, shall we give one away in memory of this discussion? (I'm thinking this wheel does not have enough spokes??)
Where are WE on this wheel?
The symbolic wheel of the teaching expounded by the Buddha. The eight spokes represent the Eight-fold path – the path leading to release from suffering. 1. Perfect View. 2. Perfect Resolve. 3. Perfect Speech. 4. Perfect conduct. 5. Perfect livelihood. 6. Perfect Effort. 7. Perfect Mindfulness. 8. Perfect Concentration. Can be hung in any area for added benefit.
Blessed at the Kuan Yin Temple of Universal Salvation – China.
I have no idea if those "steps" are correct? That's off a strange site http://www.fsdi.com/blessedproducts/wheelofdharma.htm which I thought was tacky but I feel drawn to it for some reason, and thought you might like to see it.
You read continually about "The Way." EF Benson had an entire English town following a "Guru" who turned out to be fake and a sous chef at an Indian restaurant, thus making fun of those who seek the Way, but there's no doubt that this is a strong movement today in the world.
Joan K, thank you so much for the information that Buddha did give up fasting and then do embrace Ahisma!! And I loved your haiku!!!
Now you mention "the middle way," what might that be?
Here's Joan's poem again: Japanese Buddhist poet Issa:
In a large room
one man,
one fly.
hahahaah Oh how I laughed, thank you so much. I have to tell you all that one really rang a bell with me, the first time my mother in law and I went to England together, you KNOW how tired you are after a transatlantic flight, and, having stayed up as long as we could stand it, we repaired to our hotel room to find, to our dismay, a tiny room with barely enough room for two beds, and what appeared to be a 40 foot ceiling with no screens on the windows (it was about the 5th floor and it was felt flies did not go up that high). We had turned out the lights and fallen into bed when I heard a voice coming out of the (non dark) "I can't sleep if there's a fly in the room!" hahahaah And there WAS and my 40 foot ladder was at home hahahahaha HAHAHAHAAA, needless to say not too much rest was gotten that night. Hahaahahah All this reminds me of the Dickenson poem:
Dying
I heard a fly buzz when I died;
The stillness round my form
Was like the stillness in the air
Between the heaves of storm.
But I digress!!
Tom thank you for that achievement of Gandhi's, I will add it to the heading here and here's my own submission for that this morning:In the chapter called His Global Legacy, Wolpert says, Martin Luther King was "deeply fascinated" by the life and teachings of Gandhi, having studied him in his senior year at seminary. King found the power of Gandhi's passion "profoundly significant." King never met Gandhi but was so inspired by his life and work that he visited India in 1959, eager to meet Gandhi's disciples. "To other countries I may go as a tourist," the thirty year old King told Indian friends, "but to India I come as a pilgrim. This is because India means to me Mahatma Gandhi, a truly great man of the age."
In 1964 when King accepted the Nobel Peace Prize, he spoke, as he later would in every great city of America, saying, "This approach to the problem of racial justice…was used in magnificent way by Mohandas K. Gandhi to challenge the might of the British Empire and free his people from the political domination and economic exploitation inflicted upon them for centuries." King's speech shamed the Nobel Prize Committee who felt "ashamed at having never so honored Gandhi himself."
And you may find THIS tidbit amazing, The head of the Nobel committee after WWII, Gunnar Jahn, blocked Gandhi from getting the prize when two other members of the committee proposed his name. In his recently published diary, Jahn wrote that Gandhi "is obviously the greatest personality proposed…But we must remember that he is not only an apostle of peace, he is also a nationalist."
Interesting. You have to wonder why Pope John Paul II did not get it, either, maybe there are more things at stake. ANYWAY…. I'm going to say that one thing he did, one legacy, was to influence Marin Luther King, who then brought about tremendous social change in a completely different country.
YiLi, you mention the Tao and here again, I'm out of my depth, will you explain what that is and how it relates to what Gandhi did? You said, Ghandi’s influence. His childhood as shared let’s us know he too was a flawed persona—but I wonder overall if Ghandi’s adult motivations were for his self-development spiritually- was his fasting to achieve personal realms of spirituality or was it done a gesture of connection and compassion for others.</ I think this is a super question and must also go up in the heading, the heading (do you find it too long?) is getting quite long but I want your stuff up there so we'll be redesigning it, hold on.
I am wondering, when I read about the minutiae of Gandhi's life here IF in fact, we are looking at an example of "he that is faithful in a little is faithful in much, " IF in fact, we are looking at a person who wishes to let NO thing be beyond his control in his search for TRUTH?
So every little bit counts, what's that old expression about that?
Oh I found my copy of the Panchatantra? The Panchatantra, Sanskrit for Book of 5 Chapters, supposedly dates from the 5th century, it's certainly something we want to know about, and I wonder if we might find any of those stories interesting? They are fables, told to children to instruct, you might say somewhat like Christ used parables. Like the Monkey and the Cat models I introduced yesterday, they serve to inform us of deeper principles, here is a super site with quite a few of the parables, do you think that it would be instructive if we read a couple and commented on them? The Panchatantra
Penny for your thoughts this morning? What do you think about any or all of the issues raised here or do you have issues of your own to contribute or questions to ask?
I love spending at least part of my day learning something new, especially about such a rich, and pretty much unknown culture and set of beliefs!
Oh I did learn yesterday that Mahatma is actually two words, meaning Great Soul, but I can't find the actual words, they seemed to be spelled differently, do any of you know them?
ginny
Ginny
November 3, 2003 - 06:30 am
I wish you'd look at that thing above? MLK told his "Indiana" friends? I did not type Indiana friends but Word apparently knows more about Martin Luther King than I do, hold on and I'll try to correct that MESS
Oh and let me say this too, I did ask and was told that on the pronunciation of these long Indian names? You take them, as you do Latin, syllable by syllable and pronounce every syllable there, thus the Panchatantra is
Pan. Chat. TAN. Tra
and the Bhagavadgita is pronounced (as far as I can remember) Bag.a.vad GITA.
Thought that might be interesting.
ginny
YiLi4
November 3, 2003 - 10:32 am
An interesting difference between the Buddhist path and Hindu might be in the notion of imperanence. Impermanence is the essence of the Middle Way. Not only do things change- they are "no-things" changing. Seeking to understand the nature of impermanence and then living in this impermanent world is perhaps the greatest challenge to the buddhist, especially the lay buddhist. One attempts to achieve this understandindg of impermanence to give up the "I" through Meditation. The breathing cycle in meditation is likened to the cycles of nature- change.
The Hindu Indra stories on the other hand speak to the erection of palaces, creating worlds. It is possible that this is what Ghandi attempted. He wished to create a world- but like Indra it took a long time on the path before Ghandi had a similar enlightenment, "Although a wise man may be able to count all the grains of sand on the banks of the Ganges, no one can count how many.world systems there really are.' At this, Indra was shocked: 'I believed that I was the best, the unique, the one and only Indra, but there have been countless Indras before me and there will be countless Indras after me too."
One does not have to look only to the Eastern traditions to see similar steps along the path to political and social reform. Often the reformer or revolutionary - takes one leap- a very important and 'good' leap. Because the leap in thinking or action is deemed good, thinking settles into that realm. Truth requires continuous challenge, testing, challenge, testing again...I know we have not read further on, but I suspect we might learn that might be a contributing flaw in Ghandi's search for truth. He believed TRUTH is an absolute.
YiLi4
November 3, 2003 - 10:51 am
Hmm reinforcing my point about truth and with an added- WOW. Ghandi speaks about how the play about Harishchandra, "captured his heart". He goes on in the autobiography to ask, "Why should not all be truthful like Harishchandra?" was the question I asked myself day and night..." This confirms my suspicious that Ghandi defines truth as 'truth telling' a different concept from TRUTH.
But what I found rather intriguing, especially in light of the most recent posts is the story of Harishchandra, which Ghandi says "My common sense tells me today that Harishchandra could not have been a historical character. Still both Harishchandra and Shravana are living realities for me..." Here's an address to link to a version of the story of Harishchandra- what do you all think! (wow)http://www.hindulink.org/hnb/children5.htm
Jonathan
November 3, 2003 - 11:00 am
Atheism, Gandhi said, is desert country. I'm counting on the rest of you to help me find my way around in this strange country of the soul. Many thanks for what I have already learned from reading the posts.
Gandhi's preoccupation with truth, beginning with the title, seems to be such a big part of his life's story. Does that come with his Hindu heritage, one part of which holds that everything about one, including most of oneself, is illusion? Or did his legal training along with his realization that success in the profession comes with a thorough knowledge of the rules of evidence, set him on his search for the truth?
I know nothing about Hinduism, except for what I read. So, I'm like Miss Quested in the movie, Passage to India, setting out on her bicycle to see India. Her 'way' soon takes her into an impenetrable jungle of over-grown temples and lifeless but nevertheless threatening, or reassuring, stone gods and goddesses in all states of neglect and decay. And those chattering monkeys, gods too, who send the intruder flying. What a frightful scene!
I've read that for a period in India's past, while under Muslim suzerainty, Hindus were forbidden the proper upkeep and maintenance of their temples. The British certainly never went that far. Doesn't another character in the movie say that Britain's role in India had been 'to keep the peace in this benighted country'? Actually they were more likely to ship a dismantled temple back home to England. One governor-general sent home a complete marble bathroom from the Taj Mahal, and was willing to throw the rest of the Taj marble on the market. But there was no market for marble at the time, so the monument remained in place for posterity.
So eventually Gandhi's mission became a matter of saving Indian civilization, even if it meant saying untruthful things about that other civilization, the Western variety, that 'nine-day wonder' as he called it. And he has surprisingly little to say about Hinduism, and that often negative, or so it seems to me. He does sing the praises of the Gita, but it's in the form of gratitude for the consolation he finds in it:
'When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavadgita. I find a verse here and a verse there and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies - and my life has been full of external tragedies - and if they have left no visible, no indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teachings of the Bhagavadgita.'
But the springs of action, it seems to me, Gandhi found in Christianity. Even the rediscovery of his own religion, as he tells us, came with the prodding influence of his Christian acquaintances. Can anyone doubt Gandhi's fascination with the Jewish/Christian ideals of love, suffering, service, and the absolute equality of every individual before God, or if you will, before Truth? Is it any wonder that Christians were so fascinated with Gandhi, who made Hinduism seem like Christianity by another name. Or himself a Christ...without the miracles.
Perhaps that made him unsuitable as a Governor-General. Nehru must have known that Gandhi's choice of Jinnah as PM was motivated by Gandhi's concern about peace in the land. Nehru was not willing to sacrifice his own career for that. But a G-G in a loin cloth, shacking up with the Untouchables...that would never do. On the other hand, Gandhi's disappointment at not being selected as head of the new state may have played a role in declining to be part of the Freedom festivities. Nehru's eulogy, after Gandhi's death, made much of how they all went to Gandhi for advice. But that was long ago.
Jonathan
ALF
November 4, 2003 - 06:01 am
Like you John, I know next to nothing of these eastern religions. Ghandi's convictions gripped him so strongly that "truth" became second nature to him.
Does anyone else see a parallel between Ghandi and the Dalai Lama? He claimed that the conditions of inner peace one of the most important was our basic attitude. As Ghandi grows in his beliefs, he maintains composure and his basic attitude (how he relates to external circumstances) becomes serene. External circumstances can not change but WE can! He does! Of course finding this inner peace we must look at the hardships he faced, undertaking his pursuit of happiness and truth.
Good health, friends, freedom and a degree of prosperity are all valuable and helpful to reach that stage. But, he didn't have a lot of any of those things. He proved that one can develp this quality of inner peace no matter what difficulties were met. His basic sense of well-being never was undermined. HOW did he do it?
Ann Alden
November 4, 2003 - 07:42 am
Alf, your description of Gandhi's attitude of "Inner peace" reminds me of another interesting book and I am not joking, "The Tao of Pooh" where the author, Hoffman, I think, says that Pooh is the perfect Taoist. He is happy and confident and non-concerned with the world. He definitely has "inner peace" which many take for stupidity. Here's a quote from one Tao site:
In chapter 51 of the Tao Te Ching, we see these intriguing lines toward the end:
Produces but does not possess
Acts but does not flaunt
Nurtures but does not dominate
This is called mystic virtue
These lines describes how the Tao works in our plane of existence:
Although the Tao is the source of everything, it is not possessive of anything. Although the Tao process is actively engaged in the workings of the universe, it does not flaunt the wondrous results it achieves. Although the Tao nurtures all living things through the miracle of life, it makes no attempt to rule over them or dominate them.
These descriptions seem quite clear, but it is not obvious why we should call them "mystic virtue." What Lao Tzu describes does not seem difficult to understand or particularly mysterious. What is so mystical about it?
The essence of mystic virtue that encompasses all the descriptions is this: The Tao gives of itself without any expectations.
What a shame that we all can't be that way!MP>Seems to me that these words fit right in with the Gandhi quote that Ginny uses.
About Gandhi's teen years, he was married not long after he reached those years (and the word "teen ager" didn't come into being, I think I read, until after WWII. )
Ann Alden
November 4, 2003 - 07:44 am
There is a wonderful story connected with my above quote and here is the link to that whole page entitled "The Water Pump". Very meaningful! You will have to click on the title which is the fourth or fifth one down the list to get this story.
Again We See Selflessness
Ginny
November 4, 2003 - 08:53 am
Andrea, wonderful point how DID he do it? I have no idea. I had hoped that reading his book would help me understand more about the man,
I got up this morning saying I can't BELIEVE Nehru!! Just can't believe it, the more I read the more it may be his own sincere belief , different from Gandhi's, but then again I said Jinnah and then I said, HOLD ON here kiddo, two months ago you did not know WHO Jinnah WAS, much less Nehru (I could pick Nehru out in a photo and I do know he was a leader of India, and what a Nehru jacket is….what a contrast to Gandhi, huh, I hope he gets to what that almost nakedness means) and it struck me that I know, and have known, next to NOTHING about this subject and these people!!! I need to read a book on Nehru, I know nothing of him beyond what we've said HERE and nothing of Jinnah except what the movie showed?
It's almost overwhelming, all this information, these millions of people living, dying and doing great things, all these great writings and thinkers and movements, and I had NO idea, my goodness the older I get the more I know what I don't know.
And then there's the issue of non fiction?
I do NOT KNOW how to read non fiction!
How to approach it. When there's fiction you look at what the author was trying to DO, does that also apply here?
This morning I got up thinking well, now, if YOU and I had to write the story of our years, from say 19 on, how would WE present ourselves? Especially since we wish to be an example?
I've toyed with how I would portray some of my youthful years. It's clear this man was an unusual young man by anybody's standards. Do you think he was SO or do you think he's using some hindsight here? He says he did NOT keep a journal, he must have the most amazing memory, I am just floored.
So now I come back to those of you who have said he's honest, painfully so, almost pulling out his peccadilloes one by one to pick at them.
And so since he seems so intent on us understanding him (and all that talk of eating as Jonathanji said!!! again so much emphasis on EATING, DIET) , one wonders if one has missed the boat (while one eats cake and cookies one knows one should not).
But you can't help (or can you) admire a person so driven by principle and such a seeker for truth in ALL things that he subsumes everything else to that desire.
So he's a SEEKER just like some of the newer Space Sci Fi movies? Harry Potter? And now I see Andrea mentions the Dali Lhama and there's another person I have no idea of and here's Ann with a super thing, another incredible read, and it seems that we're being presented with a million new doors that we didn't know anything about, isn't this exciting? And the only hindrance to our own enjoyment and learning is the time we have, I am just AMAZED!! This whole subject is a regular Pandora's box.
Did you all notice what he casually throws off what all he READ? All those books? All that reading?? Incredible, and in ENGLISH!! I keep thinking about a young man coming to England, speaking a different language and yet reading all those things in English, what a mind he must have had.
Incredible, wouldn't you have LOVED to have met him?
More in a mo….
Ginny
November 4, 2003 - 09:39 am
Ok we have a couple of our hardy band of Seekers (what ARE we?) out with family concerns and so I hope they will rejoin us by the weekend, just amazed at everything!
Do you all find yourselves thinking of Gandhi in situations in your own lives, or am I the only one? That "What Would Gandhi Do" site is apparently not a joke, you are hearing it everywhere. I find myself trying to apply the principles he used toward the tiniest things which make up what you have to do, like how the smallest effort counts! I like that?
Were you surprised by his shyness? The not being able to read a paper in public? I found that very reassuring, I can't either!! I loved his take on what his shyness, a burden, actually caused good in him, loved that!
I love his facility for turning things back to the purpose.
I agree with Hats he's a role model.
Lou, I love that you copied Gandhi to give to your daughter, this is really fun.
Potsherd, I love this quote, thank you so much for bringing it here: "His body does not seem to count at all, There is nothing striking about him-except his whole expression of " infinite patience and infinite love."
Joan we are all looking forward to your sharing with us some of the Gita ! Did you say you were a sociologist? I'm going to be very interested on your take on what went on as a whole in Gandhi's role (I don't know enough about sociology to even ask coherently but I hope you can pick up the drift!) haahaha
Carolyn, that's an interesting point about Mother Teresa, I have read one of her books, not an autobiography and it's very similar actually to Gandhi's sayings complied by Richard Attenborough, I am looking forward to hearing about CASTE from Karen's parents.
YiLi has asked a super question here With Ghandi, I wonder if people most respect his spirituality, religiosity or his politics?
Oh boy that's a good one, what would you all say?
I''ll put it in the heading asap (or Pat W will, thanks , Pat).
OH and antoher super question on fasting (I wonder overall if Ghandi's adult motivations were for his self-development spiritually- was his fasting to achieve personal realms of spirituality or was it done a gesture of connection and compassion for others. Wow
Ginny
November 4, 2003 - 09:39 am
Back to green. YiLi, "Impermanence, " another concept for us to spread our understanding on!
Thank you for explaining to us the Middle Way!
Oh gosh look at YILI: ..I know we have not read further on, but I suspect we might learn that might be a contributing flaw in Ghandi's search for truth. He believed TRUTH is an absolute.
ER… isn't it??
WOW!
And thank you for Harishchandra, will put that in the heading along with Ann's The Water Pump, immediately, what do YOU all think about that story!!??
Country of the Soul, well put our Jonathanji!
OH excellent question
Gandhi's preoccupation with truth, beginning with the title, seems to be such a big part of his life's story. Does that come with his Hindu heritage, one part of which holds that everything about one, including most of oneself, is illusion? Or did his legal training along with his realization that success in the profession comes with a thorough knowledge of the rules of evidence, set him on his search for the truth?
I don't know!! What do you all think? We need a new page of questions!! You all ask the BEST questions!
I did not know that the Hindus were forbidden upkeep of their temples, that explains a lot about the doctor's attitude in Passage, doesn't it? What an horrific story on the Taj, reminds you of the Forum in Rome, one of whose temple fronts still bears the marks where they chipped holes for the ropes to pull it down. I can't imagine doing that, are we just more ….interested in preserving the past? (The Afghans apparently aren't according to the Buddha statues they have eliminated).
What a powerful quote "my life has been full of external tragedies." Wow, He's the original ….well now wait. You can't say he doesn't internalize things, I'd say he internalizes them to pieces?
I'm looking forward into getting into Gandhi and Christianity, I found what turned him off very telling, he almost converted, I can't wait to look at that with all of you!<br.
Nehru's eulogy after Gandhi's death? I am going to have to read more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Andrea I am so glad to see you here, I loved this: "He proved that one can develop this quality of inner peace no matter what difficulties were met. His basic sense of well-being never was undermined. HOW did he do it?"
I think he's trying to tell us how he did it, but I may not be getting it, yet. One thing I do like about his book is that, in some strange way, I feel as if I'm talking TO him, do any of you feel that way? I mean if you visited him, you'd not get all this, (wonder what he WOULD say?) So you see him as a man who was….what do we call it nowadays, centered? And so he could brush off other things. What do you think about YiLi's question, what is it we most admire about him, With Ghandi, I wonder if people most respect his spirituality, religiosity or his politics? What do you all think today? Can we separate religion from spirituality (Andrea asked that initially, too) What do you all think? Weighty things to discuss here and
Ann, thank you for that information on the Tao, another thing I knew nothing about, is it a religion too, in reading what you've quoted from the site, it seems like….well this characteristic of "nurturing but not dominating," boy I need to cultivate that, is that just IN Tao? Are there scriptures? Is there one person who led it?
Yes I agree the giving without expectations does seem to fit in with Gandhi, what country is Tao associated with? (I have to ASK these questions because I don't know). Thank you for the Water Pump, I have printed it out and will read it and compare it to the Harishchandra, let's all do that. I'll try to get up your new questions which are absolutely super in the heading immediately!! THANK you all!
I'm going to ponder those excellent new questions, and the two new readings, and return,
g
Jonathan
November 4, 2003 - 01:11 pm
Ginny, you do a marvellous thing with showing us how broad and far-ranging the subject can become when the life of Gandhi is looked at. It is, as you say, overwhelming. Like you, I have to admit that I knew very little about Gandhi and India up until two months ago. And, as you remind us, there is fiction and there is non-fiction. One has to be on ones guard and not become too credulous with the facts coming out of India. The earliest travellers came back with the most wonderful, marvellous stories. Yann Martel with his Life of Pi just being the latest. Thinking about it later, I found myself wondering if the G-G really did lift the entire Taj Mahal marble bathroom, lock, stock, and tub, to set it up again in his place in the country back in England. The Taj Mahal is a mausoleum, is it not? Would a mausoleum have bathrooms?
On the subject of fasting, and that's all I can remember hearing about Gandhi when I was young. 'Gandhi is fasting again.' Reading about it now, I realize how much he was reavealing about himself in doing so. How much thought he gave to it. How he found self-purification in fasting. How he disciplined others with it. And then making a fantastic political tool out of it. His opponents saw political blackmail in it. Others thought it made great theater. Some dismissed it as a childish stunt.
I came across an interesting observation on it, by Alan Campbell-Johnson, close friend and political attache to Lord Mountbatten in India in those stormy days. In a journal entry, dated Monday, 12th January, 1948:
'The first news that Gandhi is to begin another of his major fasts unto death came through to me at a Press party at the Delhi Gymkhana Club. The startling suddeness of the announcement at his Prayer Meeting made its intended impact on all of us...You have to live in the vicinity of a Gandhi fast to understand its pulling power. The whole of Gandhi's life is a fascinating study in the art of influencing the masses, and judging by the success he has achieved in this mysterious domain, he must be accounted one of the greatest artists in leadership of all time. He has a genius for acting through symbols which all can understand. Fasting as a means of moral pressure and purification is part of the fabric of Hindu life. There is the unmistakable sense of everyone being drawn out of his preoccupations to share in a painful responsibility which no man can wholly ignore.'
Gandhi's fasting had come a long way since that first one in 1913, I believe, when he used it in disciplining two misbehaving young boys in the ashram in South Africa. Part of the lesson Gandhi seems to have learned when his weeping father had broken his heart as he tells us in his book.
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 4, 2003 - 01:50 pm
I can't resist C-Js entry for Wednesday, 14th January,1948:
'In spite of Gandhi's fast, it has been decided not to cancel Mountbatten's long-awaited visit to Bikaner (a princely state), but as a mark of respect for the Mahatma there will be no State banquet.
'Just before departure Patel (no relation to Pi) and Nehru came along separately to see Mountbatten. Their immediate reactions to Gandhi's decision are perhaps the best summary of the two men's divergence of opinion and outlook at the time. Patel complained that the timing of the fast was hopelessly wrong, and that it was likely to have the opposite effect to what the Mohatma hoped from it, whereas Nehru could not conceal his pleasure and admiration at Gandhi's action.
We left Palam (airport at Delhi, I believe), and arrived at Nal airfield an hour and a half later, whence we were driven off to the Maharaja's shooting-estate at Gajner, some thirteen miles away. Here a great artificial oasis, with a lake nearly a mile long, had been built out of the Rajputana desert, which provides His Highness with a paradise for shooting - his great hobby in life. The Governor-General's party comprised twent-eight of us - almost a full muster. Elaborate arrangements have been made for our comfort and pleasure, and a confidential memorandum of some sixty closely printed pages sets out the agenda to the last possible detail.
'Thus when we arrived at the Lagoon Terrace the operation order read, "The Master of the Household will take the necessary steps to ensure that crows and other birds are not allowed to settle on the trees on the Lagoon Terrace for at least a week beforehand and special care must be taken about this on the day of the lunch."
During the afternoon a duck-shoot was staged on the Gajner lake. Duck flew by the thousand across the line of butts along the lakeside, and hundreds of birds were duly bagged.
We dined in a tent, or shamiana, silk-lined and richly carpeted, and ended the day witnessing the Maharaja's sporting films. In pursuit of big game he has travelled all over the world. To enable him to emphasise some special feat, he would raise his stick, and the film would be stopped and the sequence reversed, the animal stumbling back to life only to be shot again.'
And all the while Gandhi lay on his pallet fasting.
Jonathan
kiwi lady
November 4, 2003 - 02:17 pm
Jonathon -your post reminds me of the great inequality which existed and still exists to a large extent in Indian Society. It will be interesting to see whether there will be any redistribution of wealth as India takes over a major role in Information Technology on the world stage. Will education overcome prejudice and ingrained superstitions?
Carolyn
JoanK
November 4, 2003 - 06:25 pm
I am overwhelmed reading all of these great posts. I really need to stop at each one and think about it.
I think I spoke too soon about the Gita. There are scads of versions of it on the web. The ones I looked at were full of sanskrit words I did not understand. We probably need an explanation from our own culture. I will get back to it (I've been out for a few days.
I don't think being a sociologist helps much. Except, there is one saying I have always liked (I don't remember who said it). "The fish cannot see the water she swims in. In order to see the water, you have to leave it, and then turn back and look at it". I think this is exactly what is happening in this group. By studying this man trying to live in a different culture, we turn back and look at how we are trying to live. This is what Gandhi is doing for me.
JoanK
November 4, 2003 - 07:09 pm
In the preface to "The Essential Gandhi", Eknath Easwaran writes that the spiritual aspirant "was the 'essential Gandhi'. Without understanding this we cannot really understand what he was trying to do and how he was trying to do it, nor, more important, can we understand what his life offers for the modern world. It makes him blood brother to other, more clearly mystical figures like Francis of Assissi ..[we have mentioned Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama].From this family relationship we can see that his transformation follows the traditional pattern of mystics everywhere. ..... Gandhi goes about this very much like every other mystic. The crucial difference is that he does not withdraw from public life to do it".
Gandhi said that he believed that every person could achieve what he did. Maybe. The libraries are full of books on the techniques of being a mystic (and technique is very important). They don't say how to get the will that Gandhi had.
kiwi lady
November 4, 2003 - 09:01 pm
When I read this book I feel his family suffered. There were long separations particularly when the children were babies and toddlers.
It must have been very tough on his young wife.
kiwi lady
November 4, 2003 - 09:04 pm
Ghandi's search I believe was first and foremost for himself. To attain what I consider to be the unattainable. He wanted to be perfect spiritually and he did not attain this perfection. No man can.
Ginny
November 5, 2003 - 06:18 am
HO!! What wonderful posts here today and submissions of fabulous text, it's like opening a rich book to come in here and be delighted anew, thank you ALL, am brimming with news and wanting to reflect on everything you have all brought to the table (kind of like a Thanksgiving feast, here's Aunt Prunella's cinnamon buns, well I must just try ONE, and then here's Cousin Sophie's sauerkraut, well I must just have a spoonful!~! And pretty soon your plate is full but you're satisfied when it's over, who KNEW there was so much!?!) I did not!
But first, the breaking news o the day!
WRONG!! I was totally WRONG on Nehru, wrong!! When I got to class yesterday the professor who had done his PhD ON the British Empire in India, at the break, since he was talking about Gandhi, I thought I'd just ASK flat out so I did. Listen in on the conversation, it will interest you, because YOU, in Proxy, asked the question:
. First let me say this? Last night I watched the A&E Biography of Gandhi and it raised some points I find somewhat worrying but the archival footage was simply incredible. It shows his mother, it shows the gigantic crowds that followed him everywhere, it shows the march to the sea, it starts with the Dalai Lama talking about Gandhi, it has his grandson and Lord Mountbatten's daughter with charming vignettes, you can hear his voice (and Ella, far from "high pitched," I thought it was quite resonant for a man of his age and stature), the man can't weigh 80 pounds, and it explained a LOT about him. I have it to mail if any of you would like to see it. I was stunned by the crowds and the broadcasters made a point to note that on his march to the sea (the Salt March) he only went 10 miles per day. "Only" I thought, but he did that deliberately so that news of his passage would spread, the press could join, and they did, and that others might join the march (a master stroke of PR) and at the end, truly, there appeared to be people more than the eye could count with him. It's amazing. And it's also proof of his genius for getting the press and the people involved.
I tried to find a photo of one scene in the A&E documentary, Gandhi in the midst of what must be 10, 000 people, but I couldn't, but did find this one of his funeral, so have put this here, it's similar to the crowds accompanying him while living:
OK! News We Can Use, listen in!!!
In the class in relation to Gandhi the professor said everybody involved in India agreed he was a saint (there doesn't seem to be much argument there) but he was also devious, brilliant, Machiavellian, a genius, and some other things I can’t read in my notes. He said the Fasting to Death was not new, it's Jainism, and is called "Sitting Dharma." He said as a child Gandhi had fasted when he wanted his way and his family had accommodated him (that's the first I have heard that) and he said NOBODY understood Gandhi.
Including Nehru. Nehru was the darling of the Left, the leader of the youth, the political leader of India, while Gandhi became the religious leader appealing to the older groups. Nehru was not a religious man, and he never understood Gandhi but like others he liked being IN the Gandi loop, it made him and others feel good, because what Gandhi did was not to teach a new path but to restore a "Gandhian idealized version of ancient standards." The professor cited as one of Gandhi's greatest accomplishments (and he cited 2) his making the Indian feel good about BEING an Indian, made him proud of his heritage and culture. He appealed to the conscience in his opponents, he relied and trusted in their conscience. (the remark was made what would have happened to him in Nazi Germany? What do YOU think??)
His biggest failure was in alienating the Muslims. Jinnah especially comes in for great criticism with almost every scholar I have met, a man of great personal ego, and great personal ambition, who did not care what happened as long as he could have control. When the Congress Party gained control, from the British, by historic democratic vote, of 8/11 provinces (and we'll learn more about this in Tom's discussion in December) Jinnah demanded 1/3 of all of the seats in the cabinet for the Muslims, showing a total lack of understanding for or appreciation of Democratic principles. Jinnah was out for Jinnah, and did not hesitate to play the old "We're being Persecuted Because of our Religion Card, " We'll hear more about Jinnah in Tom's discussion.
He said that Nehru dismissed the Muslim claims as spurious and thought they'd go away. Nehru, not a religious man, could not understand Jinnah's demands on the basis OF religion, and rejected them out of hand, he was feeling cocky after the elections, as well he might, and rejected Jinnah, probably arrogantly. That was a mistake.
Nehru desired a unified, independent secular India
So at the break I just flat out asked, I said we are reading Gandhi's Autobiography, and Dr. XXX drew back and with raised eyebrows said OH! Really? (apparently not many other people do, I'm proud of us), "well then you know how strange he was!" And I said yes, and people who read his book say he was a simple person (and he nodded) and I said but you and others have described him as brilliant, and Machiavellian and devious and complex, and he nodded, and I said, so which is it? Is he simple or complex?
And he said BOTH. Both, he's ALL of those things and more we have not mentioned.
So I asked about Nehru and said was it jealousy then? And he said NO! No, Nehru remained a disciple of Gandhi till the end of his life. So I said well then why did he not want Gandhi Governor General and he said because Gandhi thought that the little villages and such could rule themselves and that all that was needed was for each person to do local crafts like spinning cotton, etc, and Nehru knew that would not work, it was impractical. He never understood Gandhi but he liked to go along, like others, because it elevated them to be with him.
I've got some wonderful stats for Tom's discussion about the economy pre and post British rule and some truly horrific stats about the Partitioning, but will leave those till we get there.
SO!! This is perfect, he WAS simple, you are right, and he WAS complex, you are also right, he was both.
It occurs to me that these three men, Jinnah, Nehru, and Gandhi are sort of parables for all of us? Does that strike anybody? They would make a good children's book, it really makes me look harder at myself and my own motivations and I'm really proud of us for trying to understand Gandhi by his own words.
Now to read our two short submissions, the Water Pump and the King Harishchandra (note these are both from children's sites, I like that) and get right back to ….Jonathan, I just love that passage, will you all please be bringing in things from YOUR own readings, back in a mo!!
ALF
November 5, 2003 - 09:38 am
Ginny, you are so fortunate to be able to prod the professor for more information about Ghandi.
I found it very interesting that he was so shy and felt that that fact had benefitted rather than hurt him. "A man of few words would rarely by thoughtless in his speech."
YiLi4
November 5, 2003 - 10:16 am
some thoughts on fasting- I was thinking about how fasting has been an interesting historical element in politics and religion. Some religions engage in fasting a precursors to holidays of renewal-- e.g. catholic fasting before easter, i think at one time the catholics fasted before a 'communion'; native peoples engage in fasts as part of rites of passage and shamans often fast before travelling to the underworlds to gain the power to heal. History also records various political prisoners who fast, a modern dramatic fast in Ireland and most recently politicians fasting to call attention to the US putting its own people in harms way using of the island of Vieques for artillery practice.
Food in many cultures has significant meaning, and lots of times the preparation of food- who, how, why- has overt and covert meanings of power. I remember an important case study designed to make health care professionals aware of the many underlying issues contributing to 'compliance'- one was about a diabetic woman who did not adhere to her prescribed diet. Follow up revealed the meaning of food and food preparation in her life and how it reinforced for her, her place in the family. So the gesture of withholding food might be a response that limits the recognition of external power.
And fasting also does actual physiological things to the body which leads to altered states- not unlike the altered states of mystics- a kind of death.
Ann Alden
November 5, 2003 - 12:12 pm
ON the subject of Taoism, I looked it up in a new book titlted, "The Essential Mystics, The Soul's Journey into Truth" which is edited by Andrew Harvey, author or "Hidden Journey".
Of all the world's great mystical systems, it is Taoism-the earliest knowledge tradition of China-that has preserved most subtly and comprehensively that original sense of unity with Being that we find in the "voices of the first world." According to tradition, Taoism originated with a man called Lao Tzu, sometimes translated as Old Boy or Old Child, who is said to have been born in the sixth century B.C. and to have written his classic, Tao Te Ching, "The Way and its Power". The concept around which all of Taoist mystical pyhilsophy revolves is the infinitely mysterious one of the Tao. Taoists honor balance above all and the masculine yang energy, but theyare aware that is though what the Tao Te Ching calls the valley spirit--that of the sacred feminine, the Mother, the yin energy--that the deepest realization is attained. No other mystical tradition has celebrated the humbling, nourishing, unitive powers of the sacred feminine so adamantly.
Actually, I liked the quote from the Tao site that I put up here yesterday and feel that is says it all when it comes to Taoism----no ownership, humility towards all, no expectations of adulation from any acts of kindness.
Jonathan
November 5, 2003 - 02:25 pm
There are 167 instalments, so he must have taken more than three years serializing his life for his readers. A friend discouraged him, reminding him that his readers may hold him to his word. Gandhi's firm priniples are subject to change, it seems. No problem. Truth for Gandhi has always been tentative. Contradictions in his past have only reflected different aspects of the truth, have, indeed, been indicative of his search for truth. 'Experiments with Truth.' That should get him off the hook of being held to what he has said in the past.
Then, for the rest of the Introduction he puts himself on a delightfully high spiritual and moral plateau. He doesn't reach that high again until the very end of his book, where with his dazzling Farewell to the reader he exclaims:
'The little fleeting glimpses, therefore, that I have been able to have of Truth can hardly convey an idea of the indiscribable lustre of Truth, a million times more intense than that of the sun we daily see with our eyes. In fact what I have caught is only the faintest glimmer of that mighty effulgence. But this much I can say with assurance, as a result of all my experiments, that a perfect vision of Truth can only follow a complete realization of Ahimsa.'
Has he forgotten what he wrote in the 14th instalment of Part V, in which he remembers being surrounded by the beloved, devoted peasants in Champaran:
'That day in Champaran was an unforgettable event in my life...It is no exaggeration, but the literal truth, to say that in this meeting with the peasants I was face to face with God, Ahimsa and Truth.'
There, I've given it away. That's how the story ends. But how did it all happen? Well, the father's tears, wrung from him by his clever son, taught Gandhi the power of love, which for the rest of his life he used in such extraordinary ways on others, to win over or to manipulate. His mother showed him how to find nourishment in hunger. His brother helped him with money. His wife remained faithful despite everything. He found strength in the millions who came to him for a blessing. Mahatmahood, Gandhi claims, was an affliction, but he thrived on it nevertheless.
Other than that nothing much happened. If only Kasturbai had been able to read and write. With their many separations, surely Gandhi would have written home many informative letters. And we could have gotten to know Kasturbai better. It's interesting to speculate if Kasturbai ever looked around, as if asking, do you call this home? And Gandhi 'used to say that at Sevagram (the ashram) he felt as insignificant as a frog at the bottom of a well...but for him this well was India - was in fact the whole universe.'
So many of those other sadhus, those ascetic, penitent Hindu holy men, dedicated to vows of poverty, homelessness and fasting, sought out cool, comfortable caves in the hills around the headwaters of the Ganges. Gandhi seems to have needed people. Have you noticed? Whereever he goes he meets or looks somebody up. He knew everybody. And the whole world knew about him by the time he started on his 'Life.' Other world leaders must have been watching and wondering how he did it. Getting ideas from him. A major theme was getting Indians to shed their fears. Could it be that FDR, in a different context, of course, got that winning slogan in 1932, from Gandhi?
Ginny, did you know that Wolpert also wrote bios of Jinnah and Nehru? Jinnah seems misrepresented everywhere. Especially in the movie GHANDI. When this was pointed out to public officials in Delhi, who were free with advice and financial support for the movie, the reply was: Let Jinnah make his own movie.
'Gandhi's search was first and foremost for himself.' post 234. That's interesting.
Jonathan
Ann Alden
November 5, 2003 - 02:57 pm
Wouldn't one say that Gandhi's search for truth was the way of many Asian faiths--searching for the God, Mother, Father, Tao, Buddha, inside oneself? And, then living according to the insite's revelations??
And, IMHO, he was someone everyone looked up to so he had to live according to his findings about truth and to his inner self's pleadings??
kiwi lady
November 5, 2003 - 04:21 pm
It seems that Ghandi lived a life of mental self flagellation! He made his search for truth so complicated and convoluted. He could not accept the doctrine of forgiveness for himself although he was more than willing to forgive others.
Ginny
November 6, 2003 - 07:53 am
I sort of agree, Carolyn, in that he was constantly (or so it seems) trying to reach a certain plane and nobody knows but the individual when he's reached it, so he's keeping on trying, it's amazing that he has chronicled his struggles, actually, when you think of it.
Jonathan, in outward appearance and behavior, you are right, he and Becket might not seem more dissimilar, but again, Becket had his own struggles (and vermin infested hair shirt which they found when he was killed) but apparently struggled with them alone.
The thought that somebody IS struggling itself may be inspiring?
I'm running late but have read The Water Pump and the King Harishchandra story and find them interesting.
It surprised me that Indian children are taught these stories of moral behavior, they are similar to our own Uncle Arthur series, if you're familiar with it or perhaps, hasn't Bill Bennett done a book of moral examples? And I know Uncle Arthur is still with me today, think about it all the time, I'll put one of HIS in here for your delectation, are you familiar with him?
But in the case of the Water Pump AND in the case of King Harishchandra I am divided, and I wish you all would read those two so we can talk about them.
Harishchandra was a truth teller and he gave away his kingdom because of it and even in the face of his own son's death he remained...er....what? He asked for cremation money? How does that make him truthful? hmmmmm....I CAN see however that the boy was brought back to life, that seems to say be faithful at whatever job you have and truthful and the world will be yours? Is that what you all get out of that?
In the Tao Water Pump (and I absolutely LOVE the Taoist doctrine of throwing out good acts and deeds without looking for the reward (you are dead right, Ann, that's exactly what Gandhi is saying) confident it will be returned to you, is that not the "cast your bread upon the waters" type of thinking?
And so, tho, here, again, I am not seeing in the choice the thirsty man made, an altruistic gesture, do you all?
I would love to hear YOUR own takes on those two short famous parables and moral lessons?
And finally, am running a tad behind here but you won't believe this, you simply won't? Yesterday on my Day Off from the vineyard, I was rushing around doing errands when what to my wondering eyes did appear but this!! You will believe I nearly ran off the road? WHAT WHAT?
I really could not believe my eyes, doubled back on the huge double highway and yes by gum, it IS!
Drove 30 minutes home, got camera, drove 30 minutes back and took this I have no idea what or who this is for, but it's clear it's a national Ad campaign and I am, once again, astonished that we here in the Books seem to ALWAYS ALWAYS be in the forefront of what's happening I am just amazed, have you all seen these anywhere near where YOU live? I'm proud of us! Hahahaha
More in a minute!
Lou2
November 6, 2003 - 08:49 am
Oh, Ginny, love love love your bill board... so went to the Foundation for a better life, bottom of the board and googled it. Here is the website:
http://www.forbetterlife.org/ Haven't read yet, wanted to post this for everyone. Great find, Ginny.
Lou
ALF
November 6, 2003 - 09:11 am
Ginny, did you become "undone" with that wonderful find?
I agree with you Ann, what an awesome man. He enveloped and respected all religions in his quest for truth. That is something that we don't usually find when someone is on a spiritual path. Most times they become fixated on ONE answer, one path and one right! Ghandhi embraced all.
Jonathan
November 6, 2003 - 12:14 pm
Ann's suggestion that Gandhi was 'someone looked up to...' points exactly to Gandhi's situation and predicament in those last decades of his life. He found himself trapped in his mahatmahood. He accomplished so much. But there was always that image to preserve, becoming an icon to be worshipped. And how long can one remain useful, when it comes to the crunch, to the fight down on the street, or to the political haggling in the backrooms? IMO
Carolyn's 'He could not accept the doctrine of forgiveness.' Right on. Of course not. He was a Hindu. There's no place for that in the Hindu system. It's all karma. IMO
Ginny, that's a wonderful comparison with Becket and his filthy shirt. Gandhi was always so fastidious and clean. For Gandhi, IMO, to struggle with vermin would seem like trivializing ones spiritual problems.
The billboard is fantastic. Gandhi lives. Who's prepared to catch the torch he has thrown humanity?
Jonathan
Ann Alden
November 6, 2003 - 12:50 pm
That link provides us with much to ponder. I hope they put up many of the inspiring billboards all over the world.
Jonathan
November 6, 2003 - 01:09 pm
Excuse me for getting ahead of the story, or wandering outside it. Put it down to an undisciplined mind, a mind in a whirl. Reading about the caste system, for example, makes one's head spin. I can now see the wisdom in the advice given to the traveller to India, who gets the urge to write about it. To do so within the first week.
Take, for example, Gandhi's statement 'marriage among Hindus is no simple matter.' But what does he tell the readers of his weekly journal other than to remind them of the prospect of financial ruin in marrying off sons and daughters...'the clothes and the ornaments, the feasting'. But finding the right match, the right bride or groom, for ones offspring, within the complex caste system would seem to be have been a far bigger part of the problem, involving consultations with priests and astrologers. And making sense of the conflicting advice of the professional match-makers. Better look to it immediately on the birth of a child. Gandhi could have said much more about it.
Keeping it simple was part of the message. As when he singled out the railway system as one of those evils imposed on Holy India by the British Raj. That would make sense to his readers. Because, as Gandhi found out, travelling third class brought out the worst in his fellow Indians. With the pushing, shoving, and shouting, the abusive competition in finding a place to sit, a place to breathe.
And that's why it's so interesting to read Gandhi's own words, his own account of his life. Reading biographies of him by others, or even judgeing by just their prefaces, makes one realize what an intimidating thing it must be to attempt a 'life' of Gandhi.
Out for a walk this morning, I stopped at our local public library and, like the moth to the flame, I went straight to the India shelf. Geoffrey Ashe's GHANDI caught my eye, and I sat down with it. He begins by quoting four characterizations of his subject by distinguished people. No doubt he kept them in mind as he wrote. He leads off with Einstein's 'generations to come...will scarce believe.' And of course we get Churchill's 'nauseating, half-naked fakir.' And anyone trying seriously to appreciate Gandhi's life should also keep in mind Rabindranath Tagore summation: 'At Gandhi's call India blossomed forth to greatness.' I believe it was Tagore who conferred the title Mahatma on Gandhi. And the fourth estimate is one by R. Palme Dutt:
'...The ascetic defender of property in the name of the most religious and idealist principles of humanity and love of poverty; the invincible metaphysical-theological casuist who could justify anything and everything in an astounding tangle of explanations and arguments which in a man of common clay might have been called dishonest quibbling, but in the great ones of the earth like MacDonald (?) or Gandhi is recognized as a higher plane of spiritual reasoning; the prophet who by his personal saintliness and selflessness could unlock the door to the hearts of the masses where the moderate bourgeois could not hope for a hearing - and the best guarantee of the shipwreck of any mass movement which had the blessing of his association.'
That's what set Gandhi apart. While the rest of us struggle with truth, he went on tinkering with it.
Jonathan
Ella Gibbons
November 6, 2003 - 05:44 pm
Hello again! I have deserted my partner in this discussion, I know Ginny will forgive me, but now I have returned, a little tired from all the excitement, and have read all your fascinating comments which have gone far and beyond the book and Gandhi.
IT SEEMS WE ARE NOT MAKING ANY ATTEMPT TO STICK TO THE SCHEDULE LISTED IN THE HEADING – IS THAT CORRECT?
THERE IS SO MUCH TO COMMENT ON I HARDLY KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN – but I have copied a few questions:
Ginny asks – “Gandhi, huh, I hope he gets to what that almost nakedness means) and it struck me that I know, and have known, next to NOTHING about this subject and these people!!!
Doesn’t Ghandi say in one of the movies that he wears the _(loin cloth – what is the proper name of it?)__________________ because he wants to be like those of the humblest Indians? And yet I saw no one else in the movie wearing such a loin cloth, so what are we to think?
As two members of my family have had operations for skin cancer (melonomas), I wonder if the Indian population are exempt from this dreadful condition as they spend most of their life in the hot sun and certainly Gandhi, even though he did wrap a garment around his shoulders at times, was for the most part unclothed.
Everywhere Gandhi is portrayed in that loin cloth, I must know what it is called and I’m sure all of you know but me. Will someone please enlighted me?
Ginny quoted this from a professor: “as a child Gandhi had fasted when he wanted his way and his family had accommodated him (that's the first I have heard that) and he said NOBODY understood Gandhi”
Gandhi had temper tantrums!!!!! But his tamtrums were not the stomping of feet, screaming, etc., but hunger strikes? What mother wouldn’t give in to a child who was not eating because he wanted what he was denied? Doesn’t that reveal a lot about Gandhi and is it complimentary to him?
Ginny also stated (from a class?): His biggest failure was in alienating the Muslims. Jinnah especially comes in for great criticism with almost every scholar I have met, a man of great personal ego, and great personal ambition, who did not care what happened as long as he could have control.
I agree with this critique of Jinnah – who could we compare him with today? Any politician you know?
Has anyone commented on what Gandhi means when he says he hopes to achieve “ “self-realization, to see God face to face, to attain “Moksha”? What does that term mean – anyone?
kiwi lady
November 6, 2003 - 05:55 pm
He wishes to become like God to attain Godliness in the flesh?
Carolyn
Ginny
November 6, 2003 - 06:12 pm
ELLA!! You're back!! No no we're straight on schedule as per! We're straight as an arrow and in two days will take up the next two parts, and I'm still behind with the comments here, so glad to see you again, no we're still on Part I, even tho we're discussing billboards and Jinnah! hahahaha
more anon....oh Moksha is the ultimate--heaven--the spiritual ultimate and liberation from Samasara, if I remember correctly, I'd have to go back thru my posts again, and ...was Gandhi's clothing called the dhoti? I am not sure on that one. I AM sure that I am going to do exactly what Jonathan did, LOOKIT Jonathan, went to the library, straight to the India section (like a moth to a flame?) and copied out for us a passage, do you realize how excieing that IS? We will be drowning in passages! What better way to go! And such good passages!! I can't WAIT till grapes are over this Saturday and next week FREE FREE FREE to go to the Library and migrate to the India section, and I have so much to remark on in your posts, but it will be first thing in the morning (thank you for the nice billboard remarks, and LOU!! for finding that site!) And yes Jonathan I did know about Wolpert's book on Nehru, the class recommended it, but not on Jinnah and Ella, SUPER question on who Jinnah reminds us of TODAY!
Who would YOU say?
I fear a little Jinnah in all of us?
ginny
YiLi4
November 6, 2003 - 07:00 pm
not wanting to set us back- but ruminating today on 'experiments' with truth-- something perhaps profound here but i have no words- help!
Ella Gibbons
November 6, 2003 - 07:24 pm
YILI! Truth! yes, yes, what is the explanation for the word? My dictionary says "Conformity to knowledge, fact, actuality or logic; fidelity to an origianl or standard; reality; a statement proven to be or accepted as true; sincerity; integrity, honesty."
Which of these do you accept as truth? Was Gandhi searching for any of these?
Certainly not "conformity or reality or a statement proven to be true."
He was sincere and honest in his beliefs, true.
My book is not before me, I will go and find it, it's been temporarily lost in the confusion of the last few days, but I know he has written something about it - back later.
Thanks, YILI, for asking that! We can all answer what we believe is the TRUTH.
Ella Gibbons
November 6, 2003 - 07:52 pm
Someone above said that Gandhi is both "complex and simple." His explanation for truth is not simple, allow me to quote:
"But for me, truth is the sovereign principle, which includes numerous other principles. This truth is not only truthfulness in word, but truthfulness in thought also, and not only the relative truth of our conception, but the Absolute Truth, the Eternal Principle, that is God"
Do you think this explanation would be open to contradictions?
Ella Gibbons
November 6, 2003 - 08:03 pm
Another quote on truth from Gandhi:
"Truth alone will endure; all the rest will be swept away before the tide of time....What may appear as truth to one person will often appear as untruth to another person. But that need not worry the seeker....Truth and untruth often co-exist; good and evil often are found together....Use truth as your anvil, nonviolence as your hammer and anything that does not stand the test when it is brought to the anvil of truth and hammered with nonviolence, reject it....Truth and nonviolence demand that no human being may debar himself from serving any other human being, no matter how sinful he may be....Truth is the first to be sought for, and Beauty and Goodness will then be added unto you....An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it....Truth without humility would be an arrogant caricature....The quest of truth involves self-suffering, sometimes even unto death."
kiwi lady
November 6, 2003 - 09:34 pm
In a political sense I do see that attaining the truth may indeed be unto death but a spiritual truth I do not see this as something to be sought unto death. I think we undertake a journey which is not finished until our death but certainly not a path which would cause our death. That would definately border on the fanatic to my thinking.
Civil disobedience in standing up for the truth could ultimately in some countries indeed result in death.
Carolyn
TigerTom
November 7, 2003 - 08:50 am
Ginny,
Yes it is called a Dhoti. What is a wrap around cloth
is pulled from the back, through the legs and tucked
into the front. That makes a sort of trousers. It is
not a Loin cloth actually. It is worn by the Peasant
males in the backwaters of India and in the poor sections
of Indian Cities. The well to do and wealthy would not
be caught dead in one. It is a symbol of poverty. Mehru,
a Bhramin, never wore one in public as did Gandi.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
November 7, 2003 - 11:34 am
I'm so glad Ella is back and what a question she and YILI have posed for us, what IS truth? Wow! Could you say Truth is absolute or relative? Will one man's truth be mine?
Good question!!!
I've got a break here and want to respond to several of the things you all said,
I love all the quotes coming in here, I love all the different perspectives from the different voices and books. I have a list from the last two classes on books on India to buy, and will try to find those and bring them here should you want to further your experience.
You know, Jonathan, you mention the Life of Pi and PI means something in India that it does not anywhere else, would Martel be aware of it? I agree with you about the lessons Gandhi seemed to have learned from his father on that occasion where they both wept, that must have made a very powerful impression and of course his father was doing to him what he later did to the British: appealing to his conscience?
Joan we are glad to have you back, I think your background as a Sociologist will be invaluable here and can't wait to hear your insights. Love the fish out of water image!
Thank you for those quotes on the Mystic Gandhi, and his not withdrawing, I think the way to understanding him is to read what he wrote, just as we're doing, (I agree!)
I think, Carolyn, you may be right about his family suffering, and I wonder …are all of the Mystics married? Are ANY of the "Mystics" married or is Gandhi the only one?
Does that shed some light on him, that he did not simply push away his own wife but tried to get her to be more like him? I MUST read her own book!
Yes Andrea, I agree, have loved the two classes and now must take another one, as the professor remarked, you get hooked and have to know more and so I do, now!
Yes I loved his seeing the shyness as something that did him good, no matter how painful it was initially, and that's like his whole outlook!
YiLi did you see that guy on TV last night who had fasted? Boy he had a wild look in his eyes, I wonder chemically (think of the American Indians too) what it does to you?
Ann thank you SO much for the history of Taoism, a CHINESE religion, who knew? Lao Tzu, it's amazing the similarities, isn't it? I wonder why? Thank you for that!
Joanthan, I loved this in your post "Contradictions in his past have only reflected different aspects of the truth," hahaha you are funny about getting him off the hook , do you think that is a concern of his (or was?) Now here's an interesting point you make, "Gandhi seems to have needed people. Have you noticed?" No I hadn't! If you were a visionary and you needed to get done what you thought needed doing, how would YOU think you could accomplish it? Not by withdrawing, maybe? In the class they said that Gandhi elevated all of the Indian people to feel good about themselves, and set their sights on a higher ground, that all of that was compatible with his message.
I am thinking that's a pretty potent combination and to do that you need others, self reliance, feeling you, too, are a human being and you can do something, confidence in a higher power as guide, I think it was all about getting done what he thought was his to do?
Jonathan why do you say Jinnah is misrepresented? I must read Wolpert's book!!!
Lou thank you for seeing and putting her the Foundation for a Better Life else, huh? Never heard of them before.
Andrea, I agree, he embraced all, but he also seems fixated?
Jonathan poses one for us, too, who is prepared to catch the torch, for that matter who IS another Gandhi? Great point also Jonathan on the cleanliness, he IS remarkably concerned about that as we will soon be seeing.
I agree, Jonathan, completely about it's best to read his own life, I have also read other tales of third class and they are incredibly awful, yet he traveled that way till (and after) his ashes was it went by third class (whatever went by third class) to the sea so it could be scattered.
I love this quote, "the invincible metaphysical-theological casuist who could justify" Who is MacDonald?
I think it might be useful for us to get up a list of our own quoted books in this discussion just like that one which I had to read twice to inwardly digest, it blew me away, and with the author, as well!
So now let me pause and go read the next two sections so I can catch up with you, I am VERY interested in your own definitions of truth!
Tom, when you say Nehru was a Brahmin, what are you referring to? All I know about Brahmins is from EF Benson's Lucia series, a "Brahmin from Benares, of extraordinary sanctity," what would that mean? Is that a caste? Thank you for telling us what the dhoti is!
ginny
Jonathan
November 7, 2003 - 12:36 pm
If I were asked to pick the most self-revealing paragraph in Gandhi's autobiography, I would choose the one beginning with 'I have seen since that I had calculated wrongly.' I,vi,p6. In which he writes about friendship. Ever one to seek intimacy with his fellow human beings, he finds that God gets in the way. Or his eagerness to reform forces him to keep the friend at a distance. I believe that one could write at great length about the complex make-up of Gandhi's personality on the strength of what he says in those dozen lines. About how he relates to people. About his mission to reform. about his God-centeredness. His priorities. About the politician, the saint. They're all there. And finally, reminding himself that having made the whole world his friend, getting close to people has proved impossible. But, he says, 'I may be wrong.' Was he?
And how about those closest to him? Here's what one of them had to say:
'More than anything else, though, the ashram was a community of men and women dedicated to Bapu's ideals of truth and nonviolence, industry and humility. Who can say which, if any, of us there, with our very dissimilar temperaments and capacities, ever came near to realizing those ideals? Of course, when we were living with Bapu we felt we could do anything, and yet we also felt we needed him to solve all our problems. We became so dependent on him that we couldn't make any decision without consulting him: 'Bapu, how much hair oil should I use?' 'Bapu, should I get my head shaved?' 'Bapu, should I have one or two spoonfuls of soybean paste?' 'Bapu, won't you bless our marriage?' Bapu's prescripts were based on his particular religious and moral principles, and some of them were a little hard to accept at first. He once gave a couple his blessing after their wedding ceremony and said, 'Now you should live together like brother and sister.' He believed in celibacy for spiritual growth, even in marriage.
'Some outsiders said we were a pitiful bunch of broken reeds, all dependent in some way on Bapu for support. Some said that Bapu had gathered us up from here and there just to gratify his own ego, or to use us as guinea pigs in his experiments with truth and nonviolence. Some said that all of us - including Bapu - were mental cases, and that healthy people, like Nehru, had no need of ashrams. Bapu himself once wrote, 'I am physically and even mentally an invalid and I have collected about myself a crowd of invalids.'
'Invalids, my foot! We were very hardworking and devout, and Bapu more than any of us. Have you ever heard of Jai Krishna Bhansali? He used to teach Sanskrit in the city of Ahmedabad. Then for years he wandered naked in the Himalayas with just an iron belt around his loins, searching for God. One night, someone stepped on him while he was asleep. He had taken a vow of silence unto death, but he cried out involuntarily, 'Look out! What are you doing?' He was so dismayed at his lack of self-discipline that he sewed up his lips with copper wire. He supposedly threw himself on a large cactus and rolled around until he had thorns in every pore of his body. He wouldn't allow anyone to pick them out, and in a few days he was covered with septic sores. Somehow, he found his way to the ashram and to Bapu, who convinced him that the way to spiritual enlightenment lay in the world of action rather than in silence and mortification of the flesh. Bapu persuaded Brother Bhansali to unstitch his lips, but they were scarred for the rest of his life.' (from Ved Mehta's Mahatma Gandhi and His Disciples)
Now how could Bapu have known what was on Bhansali's mind, what was in his heart, before those lips were unstitched?
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 7, 2003 - 12:38 pm
Lou2
November 7, 2003 - 01:13 pm
I can only hope my topic comes from the appropriate section of the book??? Reading messages, the auto-bio, another biography and online, not sure who, what, when or where!!!
But it seems amazing to me that Gandhi made decisions based on "the present time". I don't how to describe this concept in other words. What was appropriate today, might not be tomorrow... He seemed led in this direction today, but not necessarily that way tomorrow... and I don't mean this was contradictory patterns.
Did anyone else draw the same conclusion? or am I crazy??? too much Gandhi??? LOL
Lou
kiwi lady
November 7, 2003 - 03:16 pm
Ghandi and his relationships. I can see why people who devote themselves to a very spiritual or religious life cannot combine good family life with their spiritual quest. I have noticed myself Church workers whose kids go without a lot of attention - their parents not even noticing they for instance have developed anorexia. Perhaps the anorexia is a cry for help - Give me some attention! Notice me! I don't believe a human being can combine family life with a quest like Ghandi's. It is just not fair to the family. I remember a dear friend of mine who truly loves his parents saying to me. We went without so much while Dad was building churches in Africa and we had no shoes on our feet while he gave to the parishioners. He said that was very hard on a kid. He did not want luxuries but he felt they deserved necessities which often they went without.
Carolyn
Ella Gibbons
November 7, 2003 - 03:40 pm
CAROLYN are you saying that one should not undertake a journey for truth that may lead to death in contradiction to Gandhi’s statement? Many of us wouldn’t, and I’m with you that only fanatics do so, but then I think of our soldiers – all soldiers who make the journey to war and death to uphold a truth.
IS GANDHI A FANATIC? Certainly his journey through life could at any time have led to death, and not only from the British! His own actions through fasting just about killed him.
THANKS, TOM, for the definition of a dhoti – did you get into the countryside much when you were employed there and see the peasants at work? What work, if any, were they doing? They grew crops – indigo was one mentioned in the film – and I had never heard of an indigo plant before.
And did they grow cotton? That business about cotton – spinning their own – that infuriated the British, I did not understand what they were attempting to do in spinning their own? And if I had sat in the same position that Gandhi did for hours it would have been impossible to get up! Hahaha
JONATHAN! “And he who would be friends with God must remain alone, or make the whole world his friend. I may be wrong, but my effort to cultivate an intimate friendship proved a failure.”
I don’t know if he was wrong!! I had marked that page in my book also – he made no intimate friends??? Wasn’t his wife his friend or did she matter?
No, I have never heard of Jai Krishna Bhansali – a vow of silence unto death – fanatical! To what lengths some will go to reach God! We certainly would not think it necessary today or are there some who believe you must suffer to reach God?
Why am I thinking about hair shirts? Some used to wear them for punishment all the time, I believe, my mind isn’t functioning altogether.
We just have today and tomorrow to finish up PART I – so let us hear from all of you. I have one question that bothers me and perhaps some of you can help. OBEDIENCE!
Do you remember in the film Gandhi says at a dramatic moment, speaking of the British – “you may punish me, kill me, take my body, but you will never have my obedience.” Did you all see the film?
However, he is very disobedient when the SHETH (leader of the community) told Gandhi his proposal to go to England was forbidden by their religion. It was their truth, wasn’t it? It was their religion.
But Gandhi disregarded other truths when it suited him and, consequently, became an outcaste from his community when he made his voyage and his experiments in England; the first of which, he tells us, is HEALTH, and the second one is RELIGION.
Is truth and religion the same thing? Can you be religious and be untruthful?
"He seemed led in this direction today, but not necessarily that way tomorrow." Are you saying, LOU, that Gandhi was inconsistent, that he changed his mind frequently? I'll have to think about that, what do the rest of you think?
Ella Gibbons
November 7, 2003 - 03:46 pm
CAROLYN, we were posting together. Shall we get on the subject of missionaries - Whew!!! But I agree with you some parents do neglect their children and their needs because they are so busy with church activities and other peoples' problems - I have seen that!
Yet, in my post above I quoted Gandhi as saying that if you want to be a friend with God you must be alone!
That excludes family?
kiwi lady
November 7, 2003 - 04:39 pm
Ella about soldiers. I think many times wars are conducted on a basis of deception. The soldiers believe in the cause but they have been misled by power hungry politicians who never themselves have faced danger in on the battle field. There is such a thing as an unjust war. Think about the German soldiers in WW2 - not just those who fight on our side.
Carolyn
Lou2
November 7, 2003 - 04:51 pm
"He seemed led in this direction today, but not necessarily that way tomorrow." Are you saying, LOU, that Gandhi was inconsistent, that he changed his mind frequently? I'll have to think about that, what do the rest of you think?"
Ella, not inconsistent basic morals... but with his path. My impression was "he went where he was led"... And the bad thing is I can't begin to tell you a page in the book to go to... if this seems off the wall, I'll do some back tracting to see if I can pinpoint where my impression came from...
Lou
YiLi4
November 7, 2003 - 07:48 pm
Thank you for those definitions, thinking about it now I believe Truth is individual. Unlike knowledge or fact, truth is not proven. Facts are often converted to beliefs. So what one believes to be true for that person is true.
I wonder if Ghandi's experiment or search for truth was misguided- I think he was looking for a singular truth for a large number of people to believe in. Although India seemed ripe for the development of his beliefs, the very nature of so many individuals, so many religious, social and political truths (or things people believed in) would almost make 'true' there could be no truth. Large groups of people may accept the same thing as true, each will have a personal spin or conception of that truth. Each will have his own idea of the nature of the fact- the belief- the truth.
Perhaps Ghandi's experiment was to see if he could overcome the individual perception, make perception and belief the same for his followers, and create a universal truth. Yet human nature and the fact that we have perceptions makes any assessment of fact personal. One person can think something good, another the same objective thing bad. I think over the next few days while away from the computer I will reread Ghandi and see if he peppers his writing with qualitative terms- and if so, I will rethink the nature of his actions. The qualitative terms, to me, suggests he is attempting to make invalid other interpretations- and render those 'untrue'. Yet- in a way, 'truth cannot be shared.
I am also stuck on this 'experiment' I'm interpreting the term in the scientific sense-- I can visualize experiments with knowledge, but somehow am lost on the notion of experiment with truth.
TigerTom
November 7, 2003 - 08:25 pm
Ginny,
Yes, Brahmin is the highest caste. Untouchable the lowest.
I believe Warriors were just below the Brahmins.
If you remember seeing Nehru in photos he always wore
the same type of outfit. Almost like it was his uniform.
I don't know what he wore in private but in public it
was the same type of clothes and always a Rose in his
Lapel. Also the Congress Hat.
Ella, No, I didn't get out into the villages. I worked
all week, someitmes six day s a week and my time off
was devoted to family. Still one would see many Peasant
people working in construction jobs. Menial labor, long
hours and low pay. Still when one would see them getting off
work after a long day they would laughing among themselves.
Often they would have small children with them as they had
no one to take care of the children. A laboror doing menial
work on a construction site might have made as little as one
Rupee a day. So both the husband and wife and older children
if available would be working at the same site.
Spinning Cotton. The British bought the Raw Cotton, shipped it
to England where it would be spun into cloth and then made
into garmemts and shipped back to India for sale. By spinning
Cotton themselves they could make clothe and then their own
garments. The British paid what they wanted for the Raw Cotton
and charged what they wanted for the finished goods. It was a
captive Market for the British and they discouraged any home
grown manufacture.
Tiger Tom
GingerWright
November 7, 2003 - 08:33 pm
I agree we are so much like cattle as we follow our leaders and do Not venture out as Gandhi did.
kiwi lady
November 7, 2003 - 08:57 pm
I have many times questioned actions of our leaders. It has and did not make me too popular. I believe if we truly see something that is corrupt we should speak out about it. Whether this be in our community or even in our churches. We should not blindly follow the leader.
JoanK
November 7, 2003 - 09:57 pm
My copy of the Gita has come. Since I opened my mouth and said we should read it, here is a selection. In the introduction, the translator, Eknath Easwaran said thatGandhi said the essence of the Gita is contained in Chapter 2 (2:55-72): that it teaches a whole way of life. So here it is.
The book is a dialogue between Arjuna, a warrior wrestling with the problem of how to live life, and Krisna, an incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu, the preserver. The Self (as I understand it) refers to the universal self which resides in all living and non-living things.
"ARJUNA: Tell me of those who live established in wisdom, ever aware of the Self, O Krishna. How do they talk? how sit? How move about?
SRI KRISHNA: They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in them, who have renounced every selfish desire and sense craving tormenting the heart,
Neither agitated by grif nor hankering after pleasure, they live free from lust and fear and anger.Established in meditation, they are truly wise. Fettered no more by selfish attachments,they are neither elated by good fortune nor depressed by bad. Such are the seers.
Even as a tortoise draws in its limbs, the wise can draw in their senses at will. Aspirants abstain from sense pleasures, but they still crave for them. These cravings disappear when they see the highest goal. Even of those who tread the path, the stormy senses can sweep off the mind. They live in wisdom who subdue their senses and keep their minds ever absorbed in me.
When you keep thinking about sense objects, attachment comes, Attachment breeds desire, the lust of possession that burns to anger. Anger clouds the judgement; you can no longer learn from past mistakes. Lost is the power to choose between what is wise and what is unwise, and your life is utter waste, But when you move amidst the world of sense, free from attachment and aversion alike, there comes the peace in which all sorrows end, and you live in the wisdom of the Self".
I'll finish in the next post.
JoanK
November 7, 2003 - 10:16 pm
The end of the passage. Krishna is still talking.
The disunited mind is far from wise; how can it meditate? How be at peace? When you know no peace, how can you know joy? When you let your mind follow the call of the senses, they carry away your better judgement as storms drive a boat off its charted course on the sea.
Use all your power to free the senses from attachment and aversion alike, and live in the full wisdom of the Self. Such a sage awakes to light in the night of all creatures. That which the world calls day is the night of ignorance to the wise.
As rivers flow into the ocean but cannot make the vast ocean overflow, so flow the streams of the sense-world into the sea of peace that is the sage. But this is not so with the desirer of desires.
They are forever free who renounce all selfish desires and break away from the ego-cage of 'I,' 'me,' and 'mine' to be united with the Lord. This is the supreme state. Attain to this, and pass from death to immortality."
georgehd
November 8, 2003 - 07:47 am
I believe that I posted the book, Gandhi, his Life and Message, by Louis Fischer; it is a short biography and quite good. I did not post The Essential Gandhi edited by Louis Fischer and with an excellent preface by Eknath Easwaran. The latter book covers all of Gandhi's life and distills his thoughts in a most interesting way. It quotes extensively from the autobiography but adds much more. It is also organized so as to cover various areas of Gandhi's thought. I was reminded of it by Joan's post as there is extensive reference to the Gita.
ALF
November 8, 2003 - 07:48 am
Ghandi met Raychand or Rajchandra, the poet and thought him a great man. He was also known as Shatavadbani. Now right away I love this guy as his name means one having the faculty of remembering or attending to a hundred differernt things simultaneously.
From hence, you may call me SHAT.
I swear that is my major problem in life. I wonder how the heck he focused on any particular with a hundred things running through his mind, simultaneously? How does one who is preoccupied with a 100 things keep his center of attention on the most important? The heart of the matter or concern, at hand, becomes blurred for me. Shat! Yep, I like that.
I'm having trouble understanding here why Ghandi berated himself so for feeling "lust" for his own wife. She was a beautiful woman and he was a young man of normal, hormonal urges. Why did he consider that lust and send her away as he was attempting to teach her. Her teaching must have taken a lot longer than the normal, animalistic appetite, didn't it? Why would he not feel passion and desire for his wife?
SHAT
Ginny
November 8, 2003 - 08:10 am
HEY!! THERE'S our George with a super recommendation, thank you George, we're only starting Parts II and III today, please give us your thoughts!
I also have some more book recommendations from the class, have found the list.
Ella, I am going to say that as far as the choice between his own caste and his trip abroad, he had no choice if he wanted to be educated, he HAD to go abroad? (And actually, our professor at Oxford said for women it was much the same today, she HAD to come to England)…more later on the educational systems in India…. and she would never forget standing at I think it was Balliol College and looking up at the inscription over the door: Effortless Superiority and thinking how hard she had worked and had had to work to even get there, (said she was a "swat," and how astounding that phrase was to her).
Somewhere in the book Gandhi says that he HAD to go IF he wanted to be educated and at that point he really had not decided on or solidified his efforts at TRUTH.
Here's Stanley Wolpert (Distinguished Emeritus of Asian History) on the effect of England on Gandhi: "Ambition may have lured him to London but self awareness sustained him there. Every day in that capital of the world he was stimulated to learn more about faith and philosophy as well as the law, about India and Mohandas Gandhi as well as Great Britain and the roots of British power."
In my current class it was stated that his greatest achievement was his role in rebuilding the Congress to fuse and galvanize all the varying sectors and beliefs into one whole, when the Congress Party vacated, it left the door open for the little partners and factions and religious extremists, gave them a leg up, he welded all these factions together by his own example and leadership. It was also stated that without his experience in London which was pivotal, he would never have been the person he became, as it solidified his own nationalism.
And as for the spinning, it was also said that to Gandhi political freedom could not exist without economic freedom, Tom that was a MASTERFUL explanation of the spinning thing! (And the SALT) , thank you!
Also here's a stray phrase and I have no idea what it means but it seems to pertain to your discussion of truth and that is, a rationale: "What people believe to be true is more important than the truth itself." (have no idea what that's in relation to but it seems important?) YiLi, Jonathanji, and our own SHAT, (I always knew there was a word for us, SHAT!!) back later on, Ella is taking over the lead for a bit but I can't seem to shut UP, what a super discussion here!
Ginny
November 8, 2003 - 08:14 am
JOAN K!! THANK you for that from the Gita! Isn't this marvelous, (and eye opening?) to realize that even the Indian who cannot read or write, and who may in fact, BE a peasant, spends more of his time considering such weighty matters of the soul than WE do?
The more we can read all these submissions, the better we will understand, and Lou and Carolyn, this is SOOO fine, back anon!
Malryn (Mal)
November 8, 2003 - 08:27 am
Will and Ariel Durant's first volume of The Story of Civilization, "Our Oriental Heritage", contains information about Ancient India, which is pertinent to this discussion. I can't seem to locate this book here in my place, but when I do I'll post some of what the Durants said.
Also in that book are sections about Hinduism in India and Buddhism. I've noticed that almost every holy man we've read about in that discussion has talked about the purity that is necessary to become close to God, or in the Buddha's case, Nirvana. The Self seems very important in both Hinduism and Buddhism. I see this purity and non-violence as factors that are common in all of these holy men.
In order to achieve these ideals, what we know as pleasure must be eliminated from one's life. This includes sexual relationships between a man and woman, man and man, woman and woman, and man and wife. These holy men, including Gandhi, practiced an almost extreme asceticism to achieve their goals.
Gandhi calls his journey "Experiments with Truth". Siddharta Gautama searched for truth. It seems to me that Gandhi had to determine in his mind exactly what the truth was before he could experiment with it. How did he find it, and what is the truth according to him?
Since I don't truly understand what drove these men to do what they did, I can only call it a quest for perfection. Wasn't this also what Jesus Christ preached and tried to attain? Volume 3 of The Story of Civilization is called "Caesar and Christ". It took us nearly two years to go through the first two volumes of this look at ancient history, so I suspect it will be months before we get to the point of "meeting" Christ.
I admire Gandhi, but I began thinking he carried his quest for purity to a great extreme when he made his diet such that his urine was as clear as water -- so clear, in fact, that he drank it.
JOAN K, the Bhagavad Gita is available as an electronic text online. I took advantage of that fact when we were discussing Hinduism in Robby's discussion.
Mal
georgehd
November 8, 2003 - 08:55 am
Ginny, I had gotten to Part IV of the book and stopped to start reading the other books that I posted previously. I will look in my notes to see if I have anything to add to the discussion of parts II and III.
As I understand what Gandhi means by Truth, he almost means what we might call God. Gandhi believed that he "had to empty himself" and allow God (the Spirit, Truth) to enter him. In that way he would become one with Truth (or God). He had to give up all worldly possessions and more importantly, his thinking achieved a new plane of understanding of himself and the world around him. He became a truly selfless person. This transformation took place while he was in South Africa and began with his being asked to leave the train.
His life became a searching for understanding of what Truth meant, which to me means that he was constantly searching for his own true self - a self that could always be at peace. A complete self.
In this sense he was like Jesus and other mystics.
Ella Gibbons
November 8, 2003 - 02:05 pm
"
Truth is individual.
truth cannot be shared Concise and true, Yili! Thanks for those comments - I think we all agree with you!
Thanks, TIGER, for that information about the family all working together – it’s not quite the same as “A family that prays together, stays together” is it that churches here like to tout. Are there any schools at all for the very poor? There weren’t any in Gandhi’s era but perhaps today? Have conditions improved any at all since the British left or would you say they have deteriorated? We need an educated opinion here, please tell us what you can about the current political, social and economic conditions.
"
“they live free from lust and fear and anger. Established in meditation, they are truly wise. Fettered no more by selfish attachments,they are neither elated by good fortune nor depressed by bad. Such are the seers.” That’s a great description of Gandhi wouldn’t you say? Thanks JOAN!
GEORGE, I want to read more about this man, Gandhi, also, wouldn’t all of you? I want an objective opinion about him, his life and his accomplishments. I copied both of those books you mentioned and will look them up. Thanks!
Hello SHAT! That’s one name I’ll shall try to forget, not a pleasant name I would think, if you say it fast it might become something unpleasant! Hahahaha We must talk more about his ideas about “lust” – he felt he needed to purify his body and soul from all worldly passions – food, lust, etc., in order to reach God. That’s what I derived from the book – WHAT SAY ALL OF YOU!
MAL says it very well here: “In order to achieve these ideals, what we know as pleasure must be eliminated from one's life. Thanks for your comments, MAL.
GEORGE – you said something very interesting – “he would become one with Truth (or God).”
ARE THESE TWO WORDS INTERCHANGEABLE?
Something like “God is love” or love is God?
I don’t know – the more I study the less I know at times, are you ever that way?
I was amused when Gandhi said:
”I read the book of Genesis, and the chapters that followed invariably sent me to sleep……I plodded through the other books with much difficulty.”
Reminds me of when I was a child and went to church and was forced to listen to sermons.
But then he hit the New Testament and the light shone:
”…whosoever shall smite thee on they right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man take away thy coat let him have thy cloke too.”
AHA!!! How much of an influence did that have upon him? He later says:
”My young mind tried to unify the teaching of the GITA, THE LIGHT OF ASIA and the Sermon on the Mount."
"That renunciation was the highest form of religion appealed to me greatly." Narayan Hemchandra was certainly an interesting fellow to read about wasn’t he? I loved this remark – “he was not to be baffled by his ignorance.” And he came to America and wore a dhoti and was prosecuted for being indecently dressed! Hahahaha
Would he be today with all the strange articles of clothing the young wear? He might start a new fashion.
Later, ella
JoanK
November 8, 2003 - 05:16 pm
MALRYN: as I said, there are many versions of the Gita on the web, but I found them full of sanscrit words, and hard to understand. I went out of my way to get the Easwaran translation because I had read some of his writings and thought it would be clearer. Perhaps not as faithful to the original, but we have enough to deal with here without learning sandskrit terms.
GEORGEHD: thank you for that brilliant summary of Gandhi's "truth". Does it also mean the "Self" in the above translation of the Gita?
As a description of Gandhi, how about "who see themselves in all and all in them"?
After looking at the passage above, and reading Part II, I feel the Gita expresses much of what Gandhi was, but not all. He seems to have been a political activist even before he got deeply into religeous study. And I suspect (without proof) that he had a natural affinity for renounciation. Certainly for costumes (I feel that his dhoti was a costume as much as the outlandish outfit he wore in England). Perhaps his religeous work enabled him to both have the personality of a mystic and to be himself.
TigerTom
November 8, 2003 - 06:15 pm
Ella,
For the very poor there is little if any change no matter
who or what is running the country. The Poor are exploited
by everyone it seems to be their lot in life.
Of coure, poor in India is very different from poor in
the U.S. or in Europe. Among the very poor there are
differences too. At the bottom of the heap are people
who live on garbage dumps and eke out an existence there.
Then there are the poor who live by the river and live
by fishing and whatever the river washes up for them.
The last are the ones who live in the city Slums. They
survive by begging, being paid to be part of a mob for
whatever purpose, and the occasional odd job that might
come their way.
In Calcutta there are people who live on the street the
whole of their lives. Born, live and die on the street.
A few never have been in a building. They hang their
few possesions in one of the trees that line the street.
A patch of sidewalk might have been used by the same family
for a few generations. In the Morning the Municpality sends
open bed trucks (dump trucks) around. There are two men
that run with the truck. If they see someone lying on the
street they will run up and kick that person. If the person
moves or groans they leave the person alone. If no movement
or sound, they they pick the body up and throw on the truck
with the rest of the bodies they have found so far that
morning. Later, the bodies are taken to the River and burned
on a communal Pyre. If the weather happens to get below 50
degrees at night people freeze to death as the average temp
is around 85 during the winter and 105 during the summer at
night.
One common scam is people go to the river and buy a body
of a baby and then in the evening stay at a traffic light
and when the light turns red, will go from cab to cab
begging and pointing to the baby and saying that the baby
just died and they need money to have a funeral and to burn
the baby. Later they take the babies body back to the river
and will buy a new one in the morning.
It has been said that riding in to Calcutta from the Airport
is like being slapped in the face with a dirty diaper.
Tiger Tom
anneofavonlea
November 9, 2003 - 12:58 am
that real Truth, is something we would all die for, if necessary.Also think that Truth is inexplicable and isn't about honesty, but is about what we are inside ourselves. People or saints like Gandhi, strive for that self to be Godlike.The rest of us settle for less.However we can all find something about which we have absolutely no doubt, something we are so very sure of. these things are our Truth.
For god like truth though one has to die to self, give up pleasure, especially of the sensual kind.That this isn't an easy task is proven by Ghandi himself who lived a long life, and was still striving.
Though some say he was manipulative, and this could well be true, I think there is a difference between manipulation and deviousness.Though I wouldn't usually subscribe to the theory of the end justifying the means it seems to me to get the British out of India, Gandhi needed the time in England and Africa to learn how to handle people.
Tom is it really a "scam" if it is necessary for existence.One truth about your post is, that we are not getting it right at all, if our fellow humans are living in such conditions.
georgehd
November 9, 2003 - 06:32 am
Anne, I do not like the word "manipulative' when applied to Gandhi. For most of us, manipulative has negative connotations. In a sense we are all manipulative as we all try to get what we want in order to achieve some personal gain. We would like others to do what we want them to do. However, Gandhi was not seeking personal gain. Yes, he did want the British to leave India. Yes, he did want the Hindus to give up the caste system. But to achieve these goals, he did not do anything to other people. He used himself; he gave of himself hoping that others would join him and see his Truth.
Ann Alden
November 9, 2003 - 06:34 am
Here's link to the "Panchantantra" where it is translated into English:
PanchantantraMay I ask if we into Part 2 yet? My computer has been down twice in the past few days and I couldn't get online so am not sure as to where we are.
Ella Gibbons
November 9, 2003 - 12:29 pm
JOAN, don’t you think a portion or all of this natural affinity came from his mother (see pg.4-5). He dearly loved his mother and psychologists have proven that the first five years of your life are the most impressionable and have the greatest impact on your future. Interesting to contemplate, anyway.
TOM, your description of the poor people leaves me sick at heart! Is there nothing to be done? No welfare system in India? Is it that the government looks the other way or they just don’t have the means? TO LIVE AND DIE ON THE STREETS, NEVER TO HAVE BEEN IN A BUILDING. It is truly unbelievable –
I have so many questions for you I don’t know where to begin. Is birth control practiced there, does the government attempt to teach this to people, are there clinics for pregnant women and children?
Does the country have any tourism at all? It seems to me that tourists, seeing the poor on the garbage heaps and on the streets, would also be sickened that people can live in such conditions and would refrain from going there feeling the lack of concern from the Indian government. I just don’t know.
Years ago, and this is a very poor example, TOM, when we first visited New York city, there were beggars everywhere and at night you would see them in the doorways sleeping, on near a grate, and in the daytime they would be sitting on the sidewalks or approaching you with all manner of their urgent needs, but of late all that has disappeared. NYCity is clean and did something – what did they do? Was it Guiliana who made the difference? It certainly was not a Calcutta, though, by any means - very far from it!
I appreciate you bringing this to our attention, we would not have known how terrible it was – can the United Nations Health Organizations help in any way? Would you say that conditions in India are the worst in the world?
"“People or saints like Gandhi, strive for that self to be Godlike.The rest of us settle for less.”
Thanks, Annie, for putting it so well! Has any of us ever wanted to be Godlike? Give up our pleasures – I mean even the thought of giving up candy (ooooo I made the best fudge last week!) is evil to me – hahahaaaaa If you want the recipe I’ll send it – the very best fudge!!! How could Gandhi give it all up – a good steak!
"He used himself; he gave of himself hoping that others would join him and see his Truth”
Yes, I agree with you, GEORGE, that is what he hoped to attain by using himself and I think he succeeded doesn’t everybody!
ANN, we are just starting PART II today – see schedule of discussion in the heading –
I’ll be back later to make a few comments on our new section, meantime THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS – IT’S SO ENJOYABLE TO COME IN AND READ ALL OF YOUR ASTUTE THOUGHTS, here we are separated by miles and miles and yet we come together in our thoughts! Always amazing to me!
Later, ella
anneofavonlea
November 9, 2003 - 12:37 pm
I agree totally. Is there another word, you think, to replace manipulation.It certainly doesnt fit MY image of Gandhi.
Ella, Gandhi does bring us together, that is sure. Incidentally I would love sooommmmmeee fudge.
Anneo
Ella Gibbons
November 9, 2003 - 01:37 pm
Gandhi returns from England to India and gives us so much to think about – I think I’ll list a few sentences that made an impression on me and would you all do the same? I’m anxious to hear what you think about this educated and sophisticated young man returning home.
LET’S DISCUSS THEM!
”I believe in the Hindu theory of Guru and his importance in spiritual realization. I think there is a great deal of truth in the doctrine that true knowledge is impossible without a Guru.”
GURU– is there any such person of comparable importance in America? In your life? In the church?
”The result of my scrupulous conduct was that I never had occasion to be troubled by the caste (he had been refused admission to a section of his community due to his voyage of India); …….it is my conviction that all these good things (affection, help) are due to my non-resistance”
When you have incurred an injustice from someone or something (i.e. boss, government, friend) what have you done about it? Did you let them know about it, take action, sue, what? Could you have accomplished the same thing by non-resistance? What is meant by that anyway? Do you admire it?
After having been insulted by a “sahib” (white person I believe) he was given this advice:
”such things are the common experience of many vakils and barristers. He is still fresh from England and hot-blooded. He will gain nothing by proceeding against the sahib….he has yet to know life.
It was bitter poison to Gandhi, but he pocketed the insult and believes he profited by it.
Gandhi learned a valuable lesson there. We can all recall something in our own lives when we were young, that we had to swallow and hopefully learn from. Do you remember any particular ones? Did it change your life as Gandhi said it did his own?
”Since my return from Europe, we (he and his wife) had lived very little together; and as I had now become her teacher, however indifferent, and helped her to make certain reforms, we both felt the necessity of being more together, if only to continue the reforms.”
How very arrogant this sounds to us! Husband as teacher! Helped his wife make reforms! I know she was illiterate but does ignorance, not of her own choice, make her less of a wife, a companion?
What do all of you think?
Ann Alden
November 9, 2003 - 06:07 pm
Here is another link for you. This one is about the overpopulation in India but also about many more problems that country has.
India's overpopulationHere is just a small quote from that page:
Even 50 years after gaining independence and being in charge of its own destiny, half of its people live on less than $1 a day. 48% of the adult population and 62% of adult women are illiterate; women are severely discriminated against, 53% of children under five are malnourished; 71% have no access to sanitation; 37% have no access to safe water; and there are around 100 million child laborers. 20% of the world's maternal deaths and 25% of its child deaths occur in India.
The reason that I left a link to Panchatantra is that the link that is in the heading leads only to a book buying site for that book. This is an English translation.
JoanK
November 9, 2003 - 08:01 pm
Ella: I agree that gandhi's mother influenced him in religeosity and fasting, but there is nothing in what he says about her that indicates that she combined this with a concern for others and relationships with others the way he did. I'm not sure we can reduce Gandhi to the sum of the influences on him.
"Is there birth control?" A friend says she resents Gandhi because she feels that his opposition to any form of birth control cut off or delayed a window of opportunity for India to start controling their population. What do you know of this, Tiger Tom?
Guru: I know that the need for a guru is part of this tradition. I studied meditation for several years under a wonderful Hindu mystic. But as much as I admired and even loved him, I don't think he was ever a guru in quite the sense meant here. I think it is dangerous to believe one should follow one person blindly. Even Gandhi, who I think was truly great, we see was flawed in some areas (at least in my eyes).Gandhi himself, in spite of saying this, seems to have pieced his ideas together from a number of sources.
MountainRose
November 9, 2003 - 08:58 pm
. . . India has there is a movie called "City of Joy". They must have used "real" people to film that because it seemed fairly real from what I've heard from people who have been there. I had a merchant marine friend who claimed you could smell the stink of Calcutta 100 miles out at sea, and another English friend who was in India with a group of students. Some of the students couldn't deal with the poverty they saw. He said it was like their minds were "bent" by it, and they went home as quickly as they could get out. He stayed because in spite of the poverty, he claims the people are probably happier than we are and more spiritual. Anyhow, that was his impression and I don't know how much came from preconceived notions.
Another friend went on a bicycle ride round the world, and the only places he feared for his life were in India and on the back roads of Tennessee. In India he saw a naked pld man lying by the road, moaning and groaning, and he stopped to give him a drink of water. The village almost lynched him because he was interfering with the man's karma. It took a fast-talking Englishman who had been in India for many years to get him out of that mess.
Yes, I do wonder if the jobs that are going to India these days will alleviate some of that poverty, because I'm sure we can't even imagine what it is like in our wildest dreams.
I do recall one of Gandhi's disciples saying that it was "expensive to keep him living in simplicity". Wish I could remember where it was I read that, but I do remember that it struck me as very ironic.
TigerTom
November 10, 2003 - 08:26 am
Ella,
India is a different world from the West:
There are roughly One Billion people in India.
Perhaps one or two percent are extremely rich. There is
a small middle class, five to ten percent of the population.
The rest are from poor to extremely poor. That would by
about nine hundred million people. No state could provide
welfare for that many people.
Population: in the rural areas children are the Social Security
of the parents. No children, no old age. If there are no Sons
living to take care of aged parents they are on their own and
when unable to support themselves will die. Females are a burden
because a dowry must be provided and when they marry they go in
to the Husbands home and are lost to their birth family. Sometimes
the female never sees her family again. So, when the Government
tries to institute Birth Control it is resited by the uneducated
poor in the backwaters. Indira Ghandi used to try population
control by force. She would throw a ring of troops around a
village, have Doctors go in and give a Vasectomy to all males
who had a Son. She was not popular for this. It did cut down
the population growth a bit but it was simply too large a job
for it to be successful. Bribes were tried but the poor would
take whatever was offered and would still turn out a child a
year. Child marriages are still practiced in the rural areas
and a female will start having kids once she hits puberty and
her body is large enough to bear a child. That means around
12 or thirteen. A female will have a child a year until she
dies around 20 from complications of childbirth. Infant mortality
is very high so a family might have 10 kids and three will live
to grow up, maybe.
Unlike China, which has a totalitarian government, India is
supposed to be a democracy so the Government cannot enforce
one child per family as China tries to do. China has been able
to reduce it's population through enforced population control
although in the Rural areas a female child will be drowned in
order to try for a male baby. Often in China a female will be
taken to the Thai Border and sold to Procurers and will wind
up as a sex slave. India cannot get a handle on its population
which is why it encourages immigration and tries to get other
countries to open its immgration to unrestricted immigration
by Indians.
Tiger Tom
POTSHERD
November 10, 2003 - 11:58 am
As Tom points out the Brahmans are the upper most caste. Definations are per " Gandhi's Truth" by Erikson, (p38):
Brahman_and learn to be literate__Kshatrias_and learn how to fight and rule; Vaisyas_ and handle goods or hold land___Sudras_to toil in the sweat of the brow__To miss all the above honored occupations and doomed in life to be an Untouchable_ to touch what others will avoid.
Jonathan
November 10, 2003 - 12:13 pm
I've read somewhere that the only time that the self-assured, anti-birth-control Mahatma came close to a nervous breakdown was when Margaret Sanger came calling at the ashram to discuss the issue with him.
I believe there is currently Indian legislation in the works to prohibit the use of modern scanning methods to determine the sex of the unborn. Set in motion when it was discovered that the female was being aborted much more often than the male. Pressure from human rights groups quite rightly was responsible. Means to get around the prohition were quickly devised. Strangest of all was the help being offered by some who claimed mysterious knowledge pertaining to preconception sex determination techniques.
Only in India
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 10, 2003 - 12:32 pm
Quite frankly, I don't see Gandhi as a mystic. He never did find anyone who could have served him as a guru. He admits himself that he knew little about Hinduism. He was an original in the sense that he wanted to find out for himself. And everything that crossed his path was examined in the light of, and had to pass the test of his own 'mind and heart', as he put it. In the next breath he speaks of waiting for that inner voice. When did he ever get time for meditation. Truth for him seems to have meant for him service to humanity. And politics. When he wrote his autobiography he was just nicely into that period of about two decades when he determined the issues in Indian politics. The way I see it.
Jonathan
TigerTom
November 10, 2003 - 12:39 pm
Ella,
Oddly, there is an article in today's issue of the
local Rag I read concerning the population problem
in India. It confirms much of what I just wrote in
my last post. I question a couple things in the article:
amount of babies an Indian woman will have in her
childbearing years and success in Birth Control.
The Article was written by Amy Waldman and appeared
in the N.Y. Times. The Paper I read picked up the article
and reprinted it.
Tiger Tom
MountainRose
November 10, 2003 - 03:46 pm
being a mystic. I don't see him as such either. There are cetain personality types in religion; monks and mystics. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. Monks mainly work in the external world, doing good works and social service, and that is the way I see Gandhi. Mystics work in the contemplative inner world and only after they have achieved some modicum of comfort with that can it overflow onto others. So their work is different, although sometimes they might use the same methods.
I see Gandhi as more of a monk, using tremendous self-discipline to achieve his ends in the world.
Ella Gibbons
November 10, 2003 - 06:19 pm
Ann, I want to thank you ever so much for that clickable to the overpopulation of India, even though all those articles in the Indian Press are three years old. I started to copy a few paragraphs that were hopeful for the future but then the next article would be as discouraging as the others were hopeful.
It’s my opinion that unless they appeal to the women or somehow gain their cooperation and support that it will never come to pass. Men cannot restrain their sexual needs, it will take a women’s grass roots support group if birth control ever succeeds.
GURUS – MYSTICS – HINDUISM – all so unfamiliar, but romantic in a way. Was Gandhi either? Did he have a guru which he stated is necessary for every Hindu? JOAN doesn’t believe he was a mystic and JONATHAN doesn’t think Gandhi ever had a guru.
I don’t know much about this – can anyone enlighten us a bit more???
Who would have been a guru for Gandhi? Anyone mentioned in the book or films?
WELCOME, MOUNTAIN ROSE! We are ever so happy to see someone new and hear their comments! I did look in my library for a film titled “City of Joy’ and although there are 5 by that name none of them seemed likely – perhaps Ginny will know about it, I’ll ask her. Would love to see it and I’m very intrigued by the statement that your Merchant Marine friend claimed the people are probably happier than we are and more spiritual. Ignorance brings happiness – spirituality? Maybe! They don’t know any other life so there is no discontent? Ignorance brings bliss? Who knows – within our materialistic society we do know the difference and therefore we are constantly searching?
Had Gandhi been raised on the streets would he have been searching for self-realization? For God?
The phrase - "expensive to keep him living in simplicity" was made by Gandhi in the movie of the same name – I just watched it for the second time while my sisters were visiting me and they thought the movie was one of the best they had seen in a long time.
It began with the young Gandhi being thrown off the train for having attempted the journey first class and in his autobiography he is asking himself whether he should fight for his rights or go back to India and forget it all. “The hardship to which I was subjected was superficial, only a symptom of the deep disease of color prejudice. I should try, if possible to root out the disease and suffer hardships in the process.”
He tells us it was winter and in the higher regions of South Africa it is severely cold – one doesn’t think of that when you thing of Africa – well, at least, I don’t.
TOM, will we be speaking more in-depth of India in your book discussion “FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT” starting December lst? I do hope so because I am so interested in all you have to tell us of not only India today, but those years you spent there – I am so looking forward to it and I’ll have plenty of questions for you to answer.
POTSHERD – were you listing the castes in your posts? The Brahmans are the upper crust, as you said, and the Untouchables are the lowest? What about Maharajahs (sp?)? In the documentary I saw of the actual footage the narrator explained that these men – the Maharajahs – were the wealthiest of all Indians and told of their many riches – so many elephants, wives, Rolls-royces, etc.
Anyone know anything about them?
In South America upon meeting an attorney, Mr. Baker, a staunch lay preacher, Gandhi explains his own religious views or lack of them:
”I am a Hindu by birth. And yet I do not know much of Hinduism, and I know less of other religions. In fact I do not know where I am, and what is and what should be my belief. I intend to make a careful study of my own religion and, as far ad I can of other religions as well.”
He never develops an understanding of any religion to the extent that he can claim to be one with that sect does he? In fact, attempting to quell a riot between Hindus and Moslems he says in the movie – “I am Jew, I am Christian, I am Hindu, I am Moslem, I am India.”
In a book I am reading the women’s suffrage movement is getting underway in America and the years are about 1910-1913 and a Mrs. Paul, a tough lady from Great Britain, knows the value of publicity and hunger strikes, much as Gandhi knew them!!! I am somewhat amazed here – who is copying who?
”Prison authorities pried open her delicate jaws with a steel implement and forcibly fed her with a dirty India-rubber tube inserted through the mouth into the stomach. Repeated on numerous occastions, the ordeal, known as ‘a hospital treatment’ had permanently damaged her ability to digest food.”
She organizes marches when reporters are around, i.e. Woodrow Wilson’s inauguration.and the pictures of the first Washington suffrage procession was shown in newspapers around the world.
Gandhi, in the film, was disappointed at the small crowd gathered to hear his first speech but he muttered “I see the reporter got here.”
Oh, yes, he needed that publicity also!
Ginny
November 11, 2003 - 06:50 am
Love the discussion here on Mystics and Truth, I am glad to find out what a Mystic really is, am learning so much just reading your posts. For those of you interested in doing more reading here are a couple more recommendations from the two classes I've taken:
From Oxford:
Empire: The British Imperial Experience from 1765 to the Present, by D. Judd
Nehru: by J. Brown Freedom at Midnight by Collins
The Story of My Experiments with Truth, M.K. Gandhi A History of India by TGP Spear A New History of India by Stanley WolpertCurzon by D. Gilmour A Passage to India by EM Forster Anything by Rudyard Kipling on India The Lion's Share by B. Porter
From my current class:
Raj: The Making and Unmaking of British India, by Lawrence James The Last Days of the British Raj by Trevor Royale The Proudest Day: India's Long Road to Independence by Anthony Read and David FisherLiberty or Death: India's Journey to Independence and Division by Patrick FrenchIndia: From Midnight to the Millennium by Shashi Tharoor Gandhi: Prisoner of Hope by Judith M. BrownNehru: A Tryst With Destiny by Stanley Wolpert.
And I really recommend Wolpert's newest biography of Gandhi, only 2 years old, Gandhi's Passion by Stanley Wolpert. It's excellent and seems to explain the book we are reading now. I do need, also, to point out that the Gandhi Prisoner of Hope by Judith Brown was strongly recommended by the professor in my new class? He says there are hundreds of bad biographies out there on Gandhi, but since he has such a high regard for Wolpert, I know he would recommend his new book too, but it's out since he made his list.
Anytime you find something which pertains to or enlightens our understanding of Gandhi please do bring it here for the enrichment of all of us, I hope to rejoin the discussion at the end of the week, Ella and you all are doing SUCH a good job here, it's really exciting to be part of it. (WELCOME MOUNTAIN ROSE!!) and a pleasure to read. Tom's explanations of the poverty really make it even more clear, don't they, the milieu Gandhi rose to lead, even more impressive, and we will really get a super background for Freedom at Midnight in December, which I do hope you are all planning to be in.
Tomorrow is "Jonathanji Day " here, I am very excited, in that I'm going to the County Library here and will make a beeline for the stacks and see what treasures await on either Gandhi or India, and see what I can bring to our roundtable here for your delectation, I can't WAIT! Ann sent me a list of books on India and they do have a website with 9,000 books and you never SAW such titles, they're old and cheap and sound so delightful, I am trying to find the list now in my stacks of "to do" papers, and will report back, the vineyard finally having closed here and FREEDOM in PAULINE awaits!
This whole experience reminds me of being a kid in a candy store: and it's so nice to have you all to share it with!
I also think but don't want to get my hopes up, that I do have some old Life Magazines, from the 40's, hopefully I can find stuff on Gandhi for our discussion OR the events surrounding the Independence for Tom's discussion in December.
ginny
Ann Alden
November 11, 2003 - 08:34 am
One of my friends from our library discussion group mentioned last evening that the only way to bring in population controls was to educate the women in that country. And, as you read(in my 3 yr old news clip), India is sadly lacking in scholarship when it comes to women.
Ann Alden
November 11, 2003 - 08:55 am
Here's a good explanation of the caste system in India (which I understand is a Hindu invention)
The Caste System
Lou2
November 11, 2003 - 09:25 am
Ella said: The phrase - "expensive to keep him living in simplicity" was made by Gandhi in the movie of the same name
I remember that, too, Ella. The statement is also made in
Freedom at Midnight if my memory serves me right.
Received an email yesterday from our son in MN... who had no idea I'm reading and thinking about Gandhi... the quote on the bottom of his message was from Gandhi... You are right, Ginny... He is everywhere!!
Lou
JoanK
November 11, 2003 - 10:06 am
I do think Gandhi was a mystic (although the discussion is a little arbitrary-- he was what he was no matter what we call it). My defifinition of a mystic is one who has as a major aim in life, as Gandhi said, to "see God face to face", and spends much time and effort working toward that goal with various techniques. Many mystics do close themselves away from the world, but many also reach out to help others. A "mystic" once explained to me that he needed to alternate periods of withdrawing from the world with periods of service to others. What was unusual about Gandhi was that that service combined with politics (unlike, say, Mother Theresa). Perhaps he was a politician first and a mystic second.
MountainRose
November 11, 2003 - 11:14 am
- . . someone who experiences mysticism. And "mysticism" is defined as a belief that DIRECT knowledge of God or ultimate reality is attainable through immediate intuition or insight (this eliminated "religion" as we generally perceive it, which is why all religions are pretty uncomfortable with mysticism).
Maybe Gandhi achieved that at some point in his life, but in this particular book he is still struggling with all of that and hasn't achieved it at all. He is trying to perfect all the methods by which mystics usually achieve that aim (no matter what religion, the methods are the same), but he's also always being interrupted by his duties to the world and does allow that to happen, so I'm not sure he ever really gets there. In reading the book I also noticed that whenever he is about to meet a mystic (like Vivekenanda (sp?) he just misses him. And it is true that a mystic needs a guru, which is another reason I don't think he ever achieved the state of mysticism. He didn't have a guru. When something is, as the definition states, happening by "insight and intuition" one needs guidance of one who has been there before, because without that guidance insight and intuition can very quickly lead a person right off a cliff. So he's absolutely right about that. Gandhi himself never had a guru, and I think that's because he wasn't a mystic but was so practical and logical that he never really felt the need. That is the "monk" role in the world.
Anyhow, that's how I see it. Mysticism is a whole different ballgame. I also believe if he hadn't been married at age 13, according to custom, he might have achieved mysticism, but with the responsibilities of marriage and children, mysticism is almost impossible to attain until a person becomes older and the responsibilities subside, because it is an inward looking process, and only once the inward process is completed can the mystic look outward and be of service to the world. Once they attain that point, they can certainly go back and forth and accomplish much good work in the world. A monk can turn outward before the process is complete, by sheer discipline only, but the discipline is NOT mystical.
MountainRose
November 11, 2003 - 11:21 am
. . . named Marsha Sinetar, called "Ordinary People As Monks and Mystics" which gives more insight into the difference and how many people have one or the other of the character traits, and how we can use them to fulfill our own lives.
JoanK
November 11, 2003 - 12:05 pm
MOUNTAIN ROSE: I defer to you. I was defining mysticism in terms of the attempt, not the results. And yet, it was the results (i.e. the kind of person he was) that made me assume he was making the attempt What you say is very interesting. Especially the part about him just missing contacts with real mystics (accidently on purpose?). I think what this book is showing us is both the possibilities and limitations of human achievement.
Jonathan
November 11, 2003 - 12:21 pm
We're hearing a lot these days about the clash of civilizations. I wasn't paying much attention, until I started reading what Gandhi had to say about the subject. And then the posts I'm reading here heightened my interest.
Calling Western Civilization a nine-day wonder, as Gandhi does, is understandable I suppose, as he went about trying to arouse national pride in a hoary past. And there's no denying that it was a blazing success as a political maneuver. A short-lived success, lasting only long enough to put an end to the British Raj.
India plods on, with its poverty and overcrowding, and its smells. How interesting to read that Calcutta can be smelled from a hundred miles out on the seas. And nothing is done about it. Eager to come to the defence of Western Civilization, I could point out that medieval Paris also had the reputation of being the stinkiest. But the problem was solved for Parisians, and the tourists, with their becoming perfumers to the world.
Ella has brought up the incidents in which Mr Baker and others tried so hard to convert Gandhi to Christianity. But failed, despite their best efforts and all their prayers. Gandhi himself "kneeled down to pray," as he tells the reader. But he remained unconvinced, thanking them nevertheless "for the religious quest that they awakened in me." Then he rushes off to lecture Indian merchants about truthfulness in business...to be an example of Indian integrity. Not going bankrupt was for an Indian merchant a point of honor. How different in commercially successful West, where going for broke is a rule of the game. Where not having gone bankrupt means not to have tested one's potential achievment. Blessed are the risk takers, an example to the faint hearted.
India too had its prophets. The quotation above: 'Of what use is the practice of virtue, when its results are so uncertain', is taken from the Kama Sutra, 1.2.21. The Kama Sutra, it seems to me, is the voice crying in the religious wilderness.
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 11, 2003 - 12:37 pm
What an amazing demonstration of what God can do, when he finds a willing and able instrument. In Gandhi's case, as he points out in Ch xvi, p138, it was only in having his eye directed to that newspaper paragraph on the back page so to speak, about the prospective political disenfranchisement of the Indian community in SA.
He jumps into action with an amazing display of energy and political acumen. Telegrams are sent to public officials. Petitions are drawn up. Agitation infuses new life into the Indian community. More petitions. Old Mr Arthur, know for his calligraphy, is pressed into service to give the petition the right look. Eager volunteers come forward to gather signatures. And of course, "I sent copies to all newspapers and publicists I knew." And he knew many. What an organizer! Is it any wonder that he took India by storm a few years later?
Jonathan
Ella Gibbons
November 11, 2003 - 02:00 pm
GOODNESS, I read Ann’s clickable about the castes and the 4 stages of life! The only thing I could possibly remember is that the 4th stage is what most of us are in and the men are to go off from the family and dwell alone in the forest!
Aren’t you tickled to hear of that opportunity, GEORGE and JONATHAN?? You leave the young ones at home to carry on and the wife stays at home, too, - otherwise you might be tempted (hahaha, no, no, it doesn’t say that!) I would hope you had treated your family very good so they will bring you food and medicines when you need them???
Didn’t the American native Indians do the same?
Good explanations of mysticism and monks and thanks to JOAN AND MOUNTAINROSE – and THANKS, GINNY, for that list of recommended books to read and I am #1 on the list to get Gandhi’s Passion by Wolpert; there were no copies at my branch.
THANKS TO ALL OUR VETERANS TODAY, WE ARE SO PROUD OF ALL YOU HAVE DONE TO KEEP OUR NATION FREE!>
Indeed “We're hearing a lot these days about the clash of civilizations” JONATHAN, do you have any ideas – any clues – about where the Middle East will be in, say, 2 years – 5 years – particularly Iraq?
You need to ask a religious person your question about virtue – Gandhi would have had an answer, but not me!! Who is certain among us about the results of virtue, honesty, integrity, etc., other than our own self-esteem?
I’m curious about this statement, JONATHAN –“And there's no denying that it was a blazing success as a political maneuver. A short-lived success, lasting only long enough to put an end to the British Raj” - could Gandhi have achieved more and, if so, what? I think he attempted to teach the people sanitation and also he set up schools – we must go forward into the book more and we’ll put more questions in the heading for our consideration.
Am in a dreadful hurry at the moment, will come back later tonight!
YiLi4
November 11, 2003 - 05:30 pm
backonline- saw the post about guru's and certainly after my recent conference wanted to comment- that yes- not only are guru's important in life, seving as guides for lots of journeys, but at some point each of us has the responsibility to be a guide for another and I think we should use readings like this on to better understand the importance of our individual guru roles. Ghandi is not unique in his influence, it is amazing sometimes how we, especially the senior we, influence others and often are not aware of it. Now after reading Ghandi I am certainly more aware.
Ella Gibbons
November 11, 2003 - 08:18 pm
Excellent explanation, YILI, of a guru – I can live with that. “at some point each of us has the responsibility to be a guide for another.” – A GURU=A GUIDE!
I have had people at various stages of my life give me advice and help, haven’t you all? I would hope I have helped someone in return
Gandhi spends an inordinate amount of space in this book to tell the reader of his experiences on trains and the insults he received thereon. Of course, there was no other method of travel then but couldn’t he just accept the fact that no one in either India or S.Africa was going to allow him to travel first class and spare himself the abuse?
Is this abuse consistent with his search for truth – for Satyagraha, does he need to suffer in order to reach truth, his truth. He says “truth is hard as adamant and tender as a blossom.” (p.148) What does he mean by that statement?
RELIGIOUS FERMENT – “The pious lives of Christians did not give me anything that the lives of men of other faiths had failed to give. I had seen in other lives just the same reformation that I had heard of among Christians….From the point of view of sacrifice, it seemed to me that the Hindus greatly surpassed the Christians.” - Gandhi
But then the Hindu religion gave him difficulty due to the untouchables and castes which he could never understand or consent to.
Does he embrace any religion whatsoever, other than his own version of God?
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Was the color bar in Africa worse or better than in America at the turn of the century?
Is it better now?.
The chapter titled “WHAT IT IS TO BE A COOLIE” (which Gandhi was considered to be) is deplorable. Had it been so before the British came? The laws for Indians in S. Africa were enacted in 1885 – when did the British claim the country or that part of the continent? Gandhi does state that his mind became more and more occupied with the question as to how this state of things might be improved.
Did he accomplish anything for Indians in South Africa? Does anyone know?
Ginny
November 12, 2003 - 06:55 am
Am on my way out of town today but we had our last class in India last night at an Indian restaurant and the subject was CASTE and so I thought (while I can remember it, I did not take notes) you might be interested in these additional bits of information about it in addition to Ann's excellent url there and your own discussion?
(It's pronounced CAST by the way not CASTE)
Ok Ann is right, it is a Hindu tradition. The Indian word for it is varna as you can see in this first illustration showing the Castes by population, the smaller of course being on top:
Here on top we see the Brahmins, the teachers, they were the educated ones who could read and interpret the scriptures, they are the highest caste. The Brahmins would wear a "string," and go thru something like a Bar Mitzvah, I am unclear on the particulars and need to read more.
Next we see the Kshatriyas, pronounced Shatriyas, and they were the warriors, the defenders of the country and the rulers.
Next are the Vaishynas, our middle class I guess, the merchants, etc. trading classes if I remember that correctly, and then the Shudras who would do things more manual followed by the Untouchables who would do and touch things nobody else would. Like garbage, etc. and I swear they said as a funeral director. It was quite a discussion on how doctors had a problem because touching the effulvient of bodies was unclean so a Brahmin surgeon had a lot to go thru after he performed a surgery if I remember that right, he had to put aside the "string" and then go thru some kind of purification thing, but the Untouchables, because of their professions and what they would handle, like tanners, etc., animal skin being unclean, lived outside the walls, and literally were out of touch.
I wish I had had a pen but I did not.
Caste is illegal and has been since the 1950 Constitution but in some of the backwaters some people cling to it just like some people cling to racism in the US today.
It was started as a response to the…and here I have only my ear to go on…was it " Aryan" invasion in 3,500 BC? Am not sure here but was a division in order to essentially keep people "in their place."
Most Brahmins are vegetarians and I found it fascinating in the discussion of caste that some people DID try to change their caste and they thought that becoming vegetarian would do it, many people became vegetarians in order TO change caste. It was pointed out you'd have to move to a new area to change caste and it would be very difficult to pretend. .
A man might marry outside his caste, but a woman could not.
This figure represents the JATI or groups within the Caste system. The five concentric circles represent the four varnas and the untouchables. Each small circle represents a JATI or group, some of these in the hundreds of thousands. The closer to the center a JATI is located, the higher it is in the system. Some JATIS are shown within two varnas to indicate the gradual shift of an entire caste in the overall system. The JATIS that are shown overlapping the outer circle represent tribal groups that are in the process of becoming associated with the Hindu social system by adopting Hindu practices and beliefs.
Another very interesting point was brought up by the Indian professor, she said her own family had rejected caste for centuries. She said that there WAS Affirmative Action in India today and it is, strangely enough, causing a problem in that people are more willing to identify themselves AS a lower caste to get, say, into medical school. There ARE "quotas." So that a person who normally would have to score 90 on a test to get in would only have to score 45 if he came in under the lower caste quota (THAT'S something to mull over, huh?)
That's all I can remember, I do wish I had had a pen, but did not think we'd be taking notes, fascinating class!
ginny
Ann Alden
November 12, 2003 - 12:44 pm
Pertaining the link that I put up, it says that Gandhi was in the Vaishya caste as his family name, Gandhi, means greengrocer. He was in the middle class while growing up.
I still don't understand how he got so much attention and was able to sway the masses in both Africa and India while using 'non-violence' as his 'piece de resistance'. There must be more here that he doesn't mention, politically, I mean. How can one little man, humble and shy, turn a whole country to his side and take that country from the British? And, from the film that Ella and I watched, people gathered in great crowds just to see him and maybe touch his robe even in foreign countries ex.Great Britian.
MountainRose
November 12, 2003 - 01:17 pm
. . . . respect for his opponent even when he disagreed totally with his opponent. He was fair, and always tried to turn the outcome into good for BOTH parties. A person like that gets a reputation and is trusted by both sides. I also think he had good mentors, who saw and recognized his abilities, and then introduced him to various people who could help him. In reading the book, I noticed he began small, with things that he felt he could handle, and once he had that under his belt, he not only met people who helped him further, but his confidence grew in what he was doing, and it became circular---the more his confidence grew, the more people trusted and helped him. Even the British trusted him.
I do think though, that if Gandhi had been demonstrating against Hitler's nazi's or Stalin's pogromes, his methods would not have worked. His methods worked because the British, even with all the ugly things they did as colonial masters, are basically a fair and honest and upright people. One can deal with such an enemy because there are rules and ethical standards.
Sure wish we had a "Gandhi" on the planet today, someone who truly wants the best for all sides.
Jonathan
November 12, 2003 - 02:07 pm
Ella Gibbons
November 12, 2003 - 02:52 pm
I must post quickly, the weather channel is telling us a major storm is coming our way and it is getting darker outside.
THANKS, GINNY, how interesting - would you say that in a way we in America have similar castes? WE are referred to as (1) wealthy; (2) middle class; (3 poor. We have no untouchables and our society has never denied poor people from moving up all the way to the wealthy (thank goodness, we would have had no Abe Lincoln, just to mention one!)
"Caste is illegal and has been since the 1950 Constitution but in some of the backwaters some people cling to it just like some people cling to racism in the US today."
So there is a comparison to racism in America - blacks not being able to sit anywhere they pleased on the bus, etc. It may take another 100 years before the caste system is entirely eliminated I would think.
"Aryan" invasion in 3,500 BC?" Did you learn, Ginny, more of the history than that? And when England took over there?
I remember in the film, as all you do, that one eminent British staffer said to Gandhi that their government must stay to keep the peace between the HIndus and the Moslems and Gandhi replies that their own bad government was preferable to the British good government.
Well, he got his wish there, and considering that was just a little over 50 years ago the country has made some improvement in government anyway.
Can we point to any other improvement in India today since the British have left?
TIGER TOM? ANYONE?
The "affirmative action" you spoke of, Ginny, was interesting when you stated that a person who normally would score high on tests would assume a lesser caste in order to get preference? BUT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE IF THE CASTE SYSTEM IS ILLEGAL??
The two do not jive?????
ANN, it does seem remarkable doesn't it? That is why hundreds of books have been written about this little man in India and I'm off to pick up another book at the Library - hopefully, I'll learn something new, some reason why Gandhi is so famous and why we have all heard about him and will continue to hear about him.
MOUNTAINROSE, I agree (do we all?) that " if Gandhi had been demonstrating against Hitler's nazi's or Stalin's pogromes, his methods would not have worked. He would not only have been jailed, but killed rather promptly I think.
Perhaps then, we can ask why did it work so effectively in India? Because you say that the British are ethical and honest? Even though they would be losing billions of dollars of revenue when they lost that colony in India and S. Africa and elsewhere.
I think it is more than that, possibly? Great Britain had fought two world wars in a short time period; their own resources - people, goods, ships, etc. were in short supply and particularly after WWII the isle of Britain was devastated.
Do you think that had something to do with it or not? That's just a speculation on my part.
Jonathan
November 12, 2003 - 02:57 pm
That's a great quote, Ella. I started turning it over in my mind. Doesn't it seem like a lovely thing to say about truth. The fact that the statement begins with a 'but', however, makes it interesting as well. And somehow casts a little doubt on it too. Is that surprising? Not if we remember that Gandhi had a mind trained in the law. Isn't it ironic that Gandhi disparages lawyers, even has contempt for them, while being such a credit to the profession himself?
The reason, I suppose, is that right from the beginning his first concern was justice. Not all laws are just. Again, "In a certain case in my charge," he says, "I saw that, though justice was on the side of my client, the law seemed to be against him." (p132) The facts in the case worked against the best interests of his client. Gandhi is in despair, and turns for advice to someone more practiced in law. With a few hints Gandhi is looking at things differently and soon saying, "On a re-examination of the facts I saw them in an entirely new light." And things looked more hopeful for his client, presumably.
It is such revelations regarding his apprenticeship days that have a bearing on how Gandhi goes about searching for the truth, in my opinion. With a mind trained in the law and court procedures. With a mind trained in the reading of legal documents. So much of the drama of his life was played out in the courts.
By the time he is writing his autobiography he is looking back on thirty years of practicing and using law, in and out of courts. And the experienced lawyer and campaigner is saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do." p148. "looking at a thing from a different standpoint in different circumstances." p148 And best of all, "but all my life through, the very insistence on truth has taught me to appreciate the beauty of compromise." And of course that Gandhian gem: The "adamant and tender" truth.
The following chapter, (XIX), is an account of the founding of the Natal Indian Congress, under Gandhi's direction, its purpose and its methods, an example of Gandhi's drawing people together to work for the common good. What I find most interesting is Gandhi's concern about giving educated youths an opportunity "to ventilate their needs and grievances, to stimulate thought amongst them, to bring them into touch with Indian merchants and also to afford them scope for service of the community. It was a sort of debating society...The third feature of the Congress was propaganda..."
It looks like a lot of hard work on Gandhi's part, preparing himself for the role he played later in India. And keeping the young people involved, especially those who might feel excluded.
The Thought du Jour in today's newspaper: "It is nonsense for you to talk of old age so long as you outrun young men in the race for service and in the midst of anxious times fill rooms with your laughter and inspire youth with hope when they are on the brink of despair." Mohandas Gandhi in 1932.
Jonathan
MountainRose
November 12, 2003 - 07:04 pm
. . . as their ethics go. People are people everywhere, and the same. But what the British had was a system of laws par excellence, beginning with the Magna Carta and eventually the parliamentary system of government. When they colonized India they brought that system of laws with them, and by those laws even the underdog could have his rights redressed, if he knew his way around and was persistent enough. The British did not usually simply eliminate those who were troubling to them, such as a dictatorship would have done.
Gandhi also began any problem solving with an "appeal" instead of direct confrontation. He counted on his adversary's sense of fair play, and often it worked. When it didn't work he resorted to other means, which up to that point had not been heard of in human history (as far as I know anyway). Up to then the world had fought wars and conquered and subjugated those conquered, and Gandhi came up with "non-cooperation". The term "non-violent" was only added on later when he realized that the people did not know what he meant by non-cooperation. Of course, in a country such as India, non-cooperation probably means that everything came to a standstill, and those in authority came to a standstill too because they depended on those they colonized for so much in every area of life. To get things restarted they had to cooperate and compromise, and Gandhi was usually happy with even just a little compromise. I think he felt that any step forward would be better than nothing and something he could build on. So it seems to me he was not bull-headed, and he certainly tried his darndest to never let his own ego get in the way.
MountainRose
November 12, 2003 - 07:05 pm
MountainRose
November 12, 2003 - 07:44 pm
Gandhi spends an inordinate amount of space in this book to tell the reader of his experiences on trains and the insults he received thereon. Of course, there was no other method of travel then but couldn’t he just accept the fact that no one in either India or S.Africa was going to allow him to travel first class and spare himself the abuse?
---- Well why should he? It was sort of a sit-in the way Rosa Parks did in the U.S., telling the world that she was as good as everyone else and she was not going to move to the back of the bus. It was especially important, I think, in his own country where he was treated practically as an animal. He also gives good descriptions of what it was like to travel third-class, and I know I wouldn't want to be forced to travel that way. What was really odd was that when he was in England itself he was allowed to travel any class he wanted, but in his own country he couldn't do that. That seems very ironic to me.
Is this abuse consistent with his search for truth – for Satyagraha, does he need to suffer in order to reach truth, his truth?
---- Yes, I think suffering is always required to reach truth, especially your own truth. Because until you suffer you really don't know what sort of stuff you are made of or what you are capable of.
He says “truth is hard as adamant and tender as a blossom.” (p.148) What does he mean by that statement?
---- truth is just THERE, solid and inviolable, but it is tender in us humans, who prefer to avoid it, especially when the going gets rough and we kill it. That's sort of the way I look at it. It's like God. God JUST IS. But the way each of us sees God might be totally different and all too often our belief in God is very tenuous.
RELIGIOUS FERMENT – “The pious lives of Christians did not give me anything that the lives of men of other faiths had failed to give. I had seen in other lives just the same reformation that I had heard of among Christians….From the point of view of sacrifice, it seemed to me that the Hindus greatly surpassed the Christians.” - Gandhi
But then the Hindu religion gave him difficulty due to the untouchables and castes which he could never understand or consent to.
---- I think what he is saying here is that ALL great religions have the same basic principles, the search to know God, and that the worth of a religion is only in the way it is lived. Hindus do have men and women of immense sacrifice for the social good. In a place like India with all the suffering, there would have to be such men and women. I think he also sees Christianity as being very materialistic and the people wanting their comforts more than anything else, even at the price of giving up their morality. What I appreciate about Gandhi is that he was a Hindu, but he didn't put blinders on the way so many people do about their particular religion. He saw the dark side of it, paid attention to it and tried to change it. Wish that we could all do that.
Does he embrace any religion whatsoever, other than his own version of God?
---- Yes, I think he was a Hindu, heart and soul, but he was not judgmental and he was not pious or rigid about it, and even though he felt it was "his" religion, he realized that other great religions had equal value. When you see religion as merely an EXPRESSION of your belief in God instead of as God Himself, it is fairly easy to be more tolerant, because every people have a right to their own expression. Contrary to popular belief, Hinduism may look like it has thousands of "gods" and it does, but the core belief is in One God. It is the popular version of Hinduism that we usually see and puzzle over, not the core values. Every mystic who has ever lived realizes that a religion is NOT God. They may adhere to the rules and rituals of their praticular religion and the religious disciplines may ultimately allow them to reach God, but the religion itself is NOT and NEVER WAS God. Gandhi was also not fearful of looking at the negative side of his own religion according to his conscience.
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Was the color bar in Africa worse or better than in America at the turn of the century? ---- It seems to have been worse in Africa, because I don't think in America a law was ever made to tax color (I read it was 6 month's salary that the government wanted to tax Indians just for being Indians). It was quite outrageous.
The chapter titled “WHAT IT IS TO BE A COOLIE” (which Gandhi was considered to be) is deplorable. Had it been so before the British came? The laws for Indians in S. Africa were enacted in 1885 – when did the British claim the country or that part of the continent? Gandhi does state that his mind became more and more occupied with the question as to how this state of things might be improved.
---- I'm not clear on this and will have to look it up. But we had our own "coolies" in America, since I believe the Chinese who were indentured to build our railroads were often referred to in that way.
Also, when the Dutch ran the country, they brought indentured servants from their own colonies in Indonesia. Indians were not coming to Africa until Britain ran the country.
Did he accomplish anything for Indians in South Africa? Does anyone know?
---- Yes, I think he did. He not only organized them into a fighting unit (legal-wise), but gave them the tools to continue the fight after he left. People who have never had freedom and democracy actually have to learn how to do it. And he gave them that. He also unified them, untouchables and all, and I do think he got the tax either lowered or rescinded, not sure which.
Ginny
November 13, 2003 - 03:35 am
Mountain Rose, Judy, Jonathan, LOVE your posts!
Ella, always the provocative, hahaahah I am not sure where to even begin? Hahaaha
er…"Aryan" invasion in 3,500 BC?" Did you learn, Ginny, more of the history than that? And when England took over there? Yes and I was wrong on the date, the Aryans invaded India in 1500 BC. The word "Aryan" is Sanskrit and means Noblemen or Lords of the Land . The British East India Company gained control of Bengal in 1757. The encyclopedia says it was in 1858 that the British Government took over the rule of India tho it seems later, maybe 1877 when Victoria was proclaimed Empress. This is a 5,000 year old culture and civilization, I think that it might be useful to us if any of you can find a timeline of Indian history? It's unreal?
Well, he got his wish there, and considering that was just a little over 50 years ago the country has made some improvement in government anyway. Can we point to any other improvement in India today since the British have left?
Good heavens, yes.
3 % of all Indians were educated at the time of Independence, 60 % are now. India is the 7th largest country in geography, and the 11th largest economy in the world. 50 years ago in India agriculture was stagnant, industry had declined under the British, 32 years was the life expectancy, average per annum salary was $82, less than 3% had electricity, 90% were illiterate, 1% had a college education. 50 years later India is the "world's largest democracy." It has an agriculture surplus, the life expectancy is 60 years, 97% of the country has electricity, India has become an industrial power, and a lot more I can't read in my notes, but I can read this: "No other post WWII country in Asia has had a sustained democracy" as long as India has. It is a Democratic, Pluralistic, Secular State. Asia's oldest stock exchange is in Bombay.
The "affirmative action" you spoke of, Ginny, was interesting when you stated that a person who normally would score high on tests would assume a lesser caste in order to get preference? BUT HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE IF THE CASTE SYSTEM IS ILLEGAL??
The two do not jive???? I may not understand the question. I may have to ask: do we have Affirmative Action or Quotas in America? And is racism or discrimination legal in America? And if scholarships are available to some people on the basis of being a minority then why does it not jibe if (or jive haha) if it's done in other countries to give those typically frozen out of opportunity a chance? I may not understand the question?
Here's what I have learned from reading Gandhi so far. What matters is doing something for the right reason. Anneo at first said a lovely thing about how she could never be a saint because she liked the praise or feedback for a job well done. So does everybody, that's the problem. Receiving praise is nice, but it makes , in my opinion, the recipient beholden then to the giver, and he then tends to work for that purpose, to receive that praise. He in fact becomes an acolyte of the person dispensing it.
But if the reason for doing it is right, then a person should strive to do whatever it is for the right reasons, irrespective of praise, because the result will be more satisfying than the one which comes from the praise of man which actually shackles rather than frees. Man will always disappoint, he is a man, but to aim for a higher goal is where you should be. I have learned from Gandhi that the smallest thing matters, because it makes up the whole, and you can't have a part without a whole. I had a fraught time at the library, Jonathanji, because I thought at first we had few resources, but THEN I found it, got the Brown book on Gandhi, got the Wolpert on India, got a fabulous picture book of India which I will be putting stuff up on a frequent basis, and a whole lot more. I love the quote for today, mine is, "The goal ever recedes from us. The greater the progress the greater the recognition of our unworthiness. Satisfaction lies in the effort, not in the attainment. Full effort is full victory." I think he said a heck of a lot in those words, but I may be projecting on him what he never meant, too, must read more.
The Festival of Pooram (april-May in Trichur, Kerala
One thing everybody seems to agree on is if you go to India you must not miss the Festivals. I forget how many thousands there are and they actually run in America from now till after Christmas, but this one is very spectacular, a temple festival which begins as twilight descends on the temple of Vadakkumnathan (Shiva) atop a hill near Trichur. Thirty richly caparisoned elephants carrying ceremonial umbrellas and fanned by whisks stride out through the temple gate. The elephant in the center carries the processional image of the temple deity Vadakkumnathan and, with the sound of trumpets and pipes, the elephants go around the temple. A spectacular display of fireworks soon after midnight continues until dawn.
from India, Fairs and Festivals by Morihiro Oki
anneofavonlea
November 13, 2003 - 05:11 am
I dont believe gandhi was about about proving he was as good as anyone, because I dont think he was that self absorbed.We might stand against apartheid for that reason, as did the marvelous rosa parkes, and of course it is a good reason to stand and be counted.Gandhi's motives I think are purer.
I think it is certainly true, that ones reasons for doing things need to be examined. Even posting here, one tries to make it about understanding Gandhi, but very easily it can be about us airing our various knowledge.I dont mean for that to sound offensive to the various posters here, who have given wonderful insights into this little man who emanated Godliness.
Last night, I watched on cable, my country playing India, in India, in a cricket match. This game is almost like a religion to the Indian population, and of course it was introduced by the english during the raj.The oddest thing happened though, suddenly I wanted India to win.That surprised me as I am fiercly patriotic about cheering for my home team.How can this be the same place, where people are living in the conditions tom spoke of earlier, and should we not be somehow trying to change that?
Sorry to digress, it occurs to me though, that were I to come face to face with Gandhi, he might not be all that impressed that all I had done for his countrymen was to wish them goodwill in a cricket match.
Anneo
Ginny
November 13, 2003 - 06:38 am
Anneo, somehow I have a feeling he would consider your support a good beginning!
Everything to the greater purpose, or that's the way I currently read him, but I could be totally off base, he's like a sphinx!
But we have a long way to go in the book yet, hopefully by the end I can get it right.
ginny
JoanK
November 13, 2003 - 10:14 am
I love all the posts for today. I keep thinking this discussion can't get any better, and it keeps proving me wrong. Thank you all.
Some notes:
Jonathan's discussion of truth has really made me think. I think truth is tender not only because we avoid it, but because there is something tender about the way we should appoach it, almost like a lover. Rigidity or possessiveness makes truth flee.
Mountain Rose's discussion of religion is exactly what I have always felt, and never been able to put into words. Thank you.
Thank you Ginny for those statistics on India. We need that as a balance to all the terrible problems.
Gandhi started non-violent resistance. I haven't found it, but I remember from my earlier reading that Gandhi credited Henry David Thoreau's "On the duty of civil disobedience" as an influence. If you remember Thoreau refused to pay his taxes because they supported slavery and other unjust causes, and was jailed overnight. It's an interesting comparison. Thoreau was a Sanscrit scholar also much influenced by the Gita, but completely lacking the political talent and drive of Gandhi. His protest was completely ineffectual in his own time, however it may have inspired others later.
TigerTom
November 13, 2003 - 10:56 am
Ella,
The British put more into India than they took out.
One of the reasons the British were so willing to leave
India was that they could no longer afford it.
One of the Problems in India was there would be a
surplus of food in one part of the country and starvation
in another part. Even with the railway system the British
built they were not able to completely overcome that problem.
The British took over from the Mhugals who had ruled India
for several hundred years. The only part of India that has
been relatively free from Conquest was the Southeastern tip
of the country. India has been conquered by many invaders
the last being the British.
The British kept control of the Country with a very small
amount of troops and administrators by Bribery, Coercian,
Murder, Flattery, providing the Maharaja's with whatever
would please them.
Tiger Tom
MountainRose
November 13, 2003 - 11:25 am
for what he did were purer, and I think he would love to know that you were cheering his country in the cricket match. LOL
Joan, I think that's exactly why we need to be happy about whatever little part we play on this planet, even when there aren't immediate results. Thoreau put an idea and a concept on paper without necessarily being very effective, but Gandhi ran with it. Gandhi got a lot of other ideas also, from someone named Charles Ruskin (will have to do some reading on him), and from Tolstoy. It seems he did a prodigious amount of reading and then blended all the ideas he came across into his own philosophy. I noticed he often quotes the Bible too, even though he's not a Christian, because the Bible might have said the concept he was trying to convey more clearly; so he put aside his ego.
I think what I like most about the man is his total honesty even when he gets into trouble, like when he criticizes Hinduism for its failings, and when he criticizes the sanitary habits of many of his people, or the educational system. He feels that for India to be worthy of independence, India has to clean up its own act. To me that's so true of anyone who wants "rights", even in this day and age. Right always come with responsibilities and one can't just have "rights" without accepting that.
It's been interesting for me to re-read this book. I read it as a teenager, and then again in my 30s, and now in my 60s I seem to get so much more out of it than I ever did before.
MountainRose
November 13, 2003 - 11:33 am
perfect: ". I think truth is tender not only because we avoid it, but because there is something tender about the way we should appoach it, almost like a lover. Rigidity or possessiveness makes truth flee."
anneofavonlea
November 13, 2003 - 03:28 pm
How did you get so wise? Lovely comment re truth.
Anneo
Jonathan
November 13, 2003 - 04:07 pm
MountainRose
November 13, 2003 - 06:40 pm
. . . truth could be anything at all, because malleable means something that can be beaten into shape; adaptable; pliant. So I looked up the word "tender" in the dictionary, and this is the definition it gives: Having a soft texture; easily broken, chewed or cut; physically weak; frlivsyr; immature.
The second definition is more the way I see truth personally.
MountainRose
November 13, 2003 - 06:42 pm
went haywire because my cat was on my lap and in the way. OOOOOOPS!
Ella Gibbons
November 13, 2003 - 07:47 pm
OH, WHAT MARVELOUS POSTS THERE ARE TO READ TONIGHT! AND ALL THESE LOVELY DESCRIPTIONS OF TRUTH. WILL WE EVER GET TO THE TRUTH OF THE WORD “TRUTH” AS GANDHI KNOWS IT?
I loved that quote, JONATHAN, in your paper and you also quoted another instance of Gandhi speaking of “truth.” So many…..
ROSE – may we shorten your name to that? Yes, the British brought their laws – and probably the best thing they brought to India was their language – one language that could unify the nation someday perhaps? And your quote – “Of course, in a country such as India, non-cooperation probably means that everything came to a standstill, and those in authority came to a standstill too because they depended on those they colonized for so much in every area of life.”
If I remember correctly, in the movie, Gandhi was instrumental in doing just that – wasn’t it a strike of miners? Was it iron ore they were mining, I can’t remember the details. And the British put the whole lot of them in jail.
But also I think he called for a one-day strike in all services didn’t he?
GINNY, YOU MUST GIVE US ALL THE BENEFIT OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE AS YOU HAVE SO RECENTLY STUDIED THIS SUBJECT!!!
Thanks for all your great ideas, wonderful!
Those are remarkable statistics, GINNY, thanks so much. India is certainly moving ahead - while at the Library today I picked up a slim volume titled India (by Greenhaven Press) and learned that in 1997 an untouchable (by birth) whose name is Narayanan was sworn in as India’s president, wouldn’t Gandhi have loved it! A quote here: “With economic liberalization, India has taken a leading global role in information technology (Indians founded major firms like Sun Microsystems and Hotmail).” Isn't that amazing information after all the negatives about the country we have learned and discussed.
Other good news about the economy continues; but then the bad news - “the gap between the haves and have-nots has never been more obvious. Indian unity is under duress from class conflict, erosion of power at the center, communal violence, regional demands for succession and the disintegrating caste system, which despite its inequality, has brought social stability to the subcontinent through the millennia.
A country of paradoxes!
“What matters is doing something for the right reason.” Very good, Ginny!
But we can’t leave his EXPERIMENTS out of it! He wanted to attain self-realization and he thought he could attain it through service – the service of the people of India.
Loved the elephant pictures – OH, LET’S ALL GO TO INDIA FOR A FESTIVAL! HAVE THE TIME OF OUR LIFE!!
Ginny, what can you tell us of those Mahajarahs?
Hahaha ANNEO – if we come face to face with Gandhi? Well - if the Hindus are correct and we all are reincarnated perhaps??? What would we all tell him?
Good idea, Joan, that Gandhi was influenced by Thoreau and his Civil Disobedience, could there be other influences we don’t know about?
TOM – can you expound on this statement –“The British put more into India than they took out. One of the reasons the British were so willing to leave India was that they could no longer afford it.”
I know they built railroads and roads, etc., using Indian labor, but what else did they do, I’m very curious.
We must proceed on to the book – I wonder if the people of India have better sanitation today – at the very least if they clean up the latrines? Were you not amazed when Gandhi tells us that the poor people had no objection to their latrines being inspected during a plague in Bombay while Gandhi was there and they even carried out the suggestions made, but the wealthy – NO WAY!! They refused admittance to the inspectors and Gandhi says it was their common experience that the latrines of the rich were more unclean. Why?
CHAPTER XXVI – Two passions that Gandhi felt strongly about – loyalty to the British and and aptitude for nursing. Had Gandhi not gone to England and been educated, one wonders what he might have done?
ONLY TWO DAYS TO DISCUSS PART III! We must hurry along – although I do hate to leave out so many interesting experiences!
The first 4 chapters of PART III deal with Ganhi’s experiences on board traveling back to South Africa – THE RUMBLINGS OF THE STORM, THE STORM, THE TEST AND THE CALM AFTER THE STORM.
Why did Gandhi feel it important to include these chapters? What meaning do they give to his autobiography, his work, his life?
Thanks again for such fascinating thoughts and your interest in the book! It's a pleasure to come in and to read them, you're all such great writers.
TigerTom
November 13, 2003 - 08:13 pm
Ella,
Actually, the Empire cost the British. WWI bankrupted
the British and WWII finished it off. Britain owed so
much money to the U.S., after hocking its Empire, that
it couldn;t pay the interest much less pay down the principal
so the U.S. wrote off the debt.
The British funded the British Indian Army, the Railway,
The Civil Service, The British Administrators and their
staffs (which included housing, schooling, transportation,
home leaves, etc.) and much more. British Business did
well enough. Taxes from the Indians did not cover the expenses
of India and the taxes paid by the British Business went to
England and its Services,, Railways, Social Services, etc.
So, India was not cost effective but when Britain was in its
heyday it had the rest of the Empire to make up those costs.
When WWII ended Britain was completely drained and could no
longer afford India or its Empire. So, it got out of India
and tried to salvage as much of the Empire as it could but
soon found that it had to let the rest go too.
Tiger Tom
Dale2
November 13, 2003 - 10:36 pm
In his "M.K.Gandhi and the South African Problem" (Madras, 1911) p.26, Dr. P.J. Mehta said that Gandhi had imbued them with a sense of worth greater than that held by men similarly situated in India in dealing with Europeans.
After a detailed study of Gandhi's life and work in Durban from 1893 to 1897, Burnett Britton, author of "Gandhi Arrives in South Africa" (Canton, Maine, 1999) p.375, explicitly concurred with Dr. Mehta.
Jonathan
November 13, 2003 - 11:20 pm
And I'll need two posts to reply to MountainRose's recent posts, in which she shows how well she gets to the heart of what Gandhi stands for. I like your 'tender' truth better than mine.
I'll need a post to meditate on AnneO's meeting Gandhi face to face. Your goodwill will no doubt melt his heart. Everybody else comes for a blessing. Or for legal advice. Others for political advice.
A post to thank Ginny for the wonderful elephant pictures at the time of the Poorim Festival. Isn't that strange. Could it be a Lost Tribe celebrating the happy outcome of a people's crisis in another place, long ago. Even so, it's a reminder that there is and always has been another India out there, that even Gandhi never touched.
For Ella, who wants to go to India for the time of her life, and risks returning feeling timeless, with strange thoughts of many lives. Do you feel comfortable crossing all those dark waters? And don't forget your vows. Travelling with vows is the only way to go.
Tom, we must consider further, at another time, why Atlee felt that he should send a soldier, pardon me, a sailor, to get the British out of India, pronto.
It's very late
joji
Ginny
November 14, 2003 - 07:04 am
joji, hahahah is that like Shopji the guy who plays the violin at Branson or so I have been told? hahaha Love it!!
Welcome Dale2 !!
And thank you for that wonderful quote, my second class said the same thing, that THAT is one of Gandhi's greatest achievements, but I did not realize it also applied to the Indians in South Africa, and of course it did (I will never make an historian) good on you!
The other achievement cited was how he brought the fragmented pieces of the various religious and political factions back together, will elaborate more on that later on in Tom's Freedom at Mignight.
I want to comment on what you've all said, and thank you Joan, I agree with you, you're all making SUCH a fine discussion here. Thank you for the nice comments and thank you also joji,and Ella, I have some wonderful photos to bring the color and fascination of the "most complex civilization on earth," (so they said in my class) to tring to the table here, a feast for the eyes, just like your own posts.
I have to tell you something funny. I am finding Gandhi references everywhere in my own life and the other day I had a minor crisis and told a friend now Gandhi would look at this like XXX and so will I (and the joy of a good friend hahaahha) she said yeah Ginny but you're not as far along there as he was hahahahaha boy that's the truth. When I think of Gandhi and I think of what all I've been told about him and now we're reading his actual words, I keep hearing over and over the old hymm,
"A highter plane
than I have found
Lord, plant my feet on higher ground."
Gandhi's on higher ground than I am, and so are quite a few of you , that's obvious from what I'm reading here. The concept of the Wheel and the Way and all of us seeking, and the realization that nobody understood Gandhi, not Nehru, not any person around him, NOBODY understood him, tells me he was on a very high plane but still, always, forever climbing, what an inspirational person he was.
Anneo mentioned projection, we tend to read into what he said (he's kind of like a Sibyl or Oracle in some ways) our own perspectives in an effort to undersand, makes this kind of discussion even more valuable here, we can hear other perspectives on the same words and that will help us in our struggle to understand! I just wanted to blurt that out while I could still frame it, my Gandhi quote for today is
"It is because we have at the present moment everybody claiming the right of conscience without going through any discipline whatsoever that there is so much untruth being delivered to a bewildered world."
Back later, just wanted to say WELCOME DALE!
ginny
Ann Alden
November 14, 2003 - 09:24 am
Having read the last 18 or so posts and having a different response to Gandhi's meaning of truth being like a tender flower, I think that the meaning could be
One who intends to always be truthful must be "ADAMENT" or strong(like a wall) when one wants to bear the truth to another but always remember that "truth" is also tender or fragile and open to misinterpretation.
MountainRose
November 14, 2003 - 11:21 am
. . . a dictionary can be. I looked up "adamant" and here is what it means: Unyielding, hard as metal or a diamond, a stone believed to be impenetrably hard. So Ann's definition is right on target.
I just have a bit of trouble with this because when you read a book such as "The Poisonwood Bible" you realize that there are people who BELIEVE they have the truth, and become inflexible and unyielding, and end up causing much destruction.
I'm also wondering if Gandhi meant "truth" (which is, I think, like a will o' the whisp) or did he mean personal honesty in all things?
MountainRose
November 14, 2003 - 11:24 am
just to MR.
Jonathan
November 14, 2003 - 12:25 pm
AnneO's provocative suggestion reminded me that I had read an account of one such happening. I found it in The Gandhi Reader (ed. Homer A Jack). It occurred in 1931, when Dr John Haynes Holmes, 'minister of the Community Church in NYC, met Gandhi. Dr Holmes had been following Gandhi's career for ten years, after hearing about his marvellous activities in South Africa. Holmes had preached a sermon entitled The Christ of Today, On April 10, 1922, in which he declared Gandhi to be 'the greatest man in the world.' And, as Holmes writes, 'the sermon found its way to India...was widely published in the native press, and everywhere stirred interest and acclaim.'
Then, according to Holmes' account:
"It was Saturday, the 12th of September, 1931 - a cold, rainy, and dismal day. I was in London, to meet Gandhi. Charlie Andrews, beloved of Gandhi through many years, had sent me word that the Mahatma was landing that very morning at Folkstone, and would I come and join the little group of friends who would be there on the pier to meet and greet him on his arrival. Gandhi's mission in England, as all the world knew, was to attend the impending sessions of the famous Round Table Conference on Indian affairs...
"In a few moments, which seemed like hours, we were aboard the ship, and I was standing at the door of Gandhi's cabin, awaiting my turn to be received. It was here I had my first glimpse of the Mahatma.
"He was sitting cross-legged upon his berth, engaged in earnest conversation with Reginald Reynolds, who was a member of the Quaker group which had been appointed to welcome Gandhi in the name of the English Friends. His head and shoulders were bent forward in a listening attitude, so that I could not see his face. A naked arm, long and lean and wiry, reached out of the shawl, flung lightly about his shoulders, and took a paper from Reginald's hand. There was a quick interchange of words, a flitting smile, and the conference was over.
"It was now my turn. I stepped into the little cabin. Instantly, when Gandhi saw me, he jumped to his feet, and with a lithe quick step of a schoolboy, came forward to greet me. I cannot now seem to remember whether or not he gave me the familiar Hindu salutation. But I felt his hands take mine with a grasp as firm as that of an athlete.
"...Then the conversation drifted, as conversations have a way of doing on such occasions, to other and more general themes. I do not recall particularly what was said. I was too excited and confused to make note of Gandhi's remarks. But I shall never forget those bright eyes shining through his spectacles, and his voice so clear and yet so gentle, his whole presence so simple and yet so strong. We had only a few precious moments together - others were pressing upon us and clammering for attention. So I withdrew and contented myself with watching this man whose spirit had reached me, years before, across the continents and seas of half the world."
What can one add to that? Other than to wonder about Gandhi's disappointment in not being able to get that invitation to Chartwell that he wanted, to meet, and no doubt to forgive, that man who had called him a disgusting half-naked fakir.
By the oddest coincidence, GANDHI was shown on a local channel a few weeks ago (during which, you will remember, I took that telemarketing call from Bangalore, India...and thereby hangs another tale). And then, a few days later a three-hour documentary on the life of Winston Churchill. Another great man. Not as innovative as Gandhi in finding solutions to conflict; but still somehow ( I wonder, did WSC read the Gita?), it seems to me, in complete agreement with him about the need for action. With the difference that when it came to the crunch, Churchill would hit, while Gandhi was willing to take the hit.
What strange beings we are.
joji
Ginny
November 14, 2003 - 01:28 pm
jonji, that was marvelous, it was like being there, I almost felt that I WAS there, thank you!!
HO on the quote, I don't know enough about Churchill to ask what I'm thinking but Ella is quite a Churchill scholar so we'll see what she thinks!
Joan I agree, what a marvelous approach, and Ann, I like your interpretation, too, that was kind of the way I saw it, and Rose (I can't call you MR) what a good point.
Before we leave this section the day after tomorrow, I really want to comment on one of my favorite passages in the book, always makes me laugh, the "ornaments." I love this passage.
In the beginning of Chapter XII in Part III, Gandhi tells how he was overwhelmed with gifts, upon his return from South Africa, including ornaments of some value for his wife, but, being Gandhi, decided that the 50 guinea gold necklace given his wife had to go. I loved his soul searching, his rationalization , the effect on the children, the effect on the community, his message. He decides to let them go. He knew he could not persuade his wife
(here the young couple is in 1915 upon their return from South Africa, to India)…..so he started with the children and they agreed, so he approached her. I loved her spirit in this:
"You may not need them," said my wife. "Your children may not need them. Cajoled they will dance to your tune. I can understand your not permitting me to wear them. But what about my daughters-in-law? They will be sure to need them. And who knows what will happen tomorrow? I would be the last person to part with a gift so lovingly given."
And thus the torrent of argument went on, reinforced, in the end, by tears. But the children were adamant. (!) And I was unmoved.
…..[Gandhi here reasons with his wife about the children, their future wives and ends…] And if after all, we need to provide them with ornaments, I am there. You will ask me then."
"Ask you? I know you by this time. You deprived me of my ornaments, you would not leave me in peace with them. Fancy you offering to get ornaments for the daughters-in-law! You who are trying to make sadhus of my boys from today! No, the ornaments will not be returned. And pray what right have you to my necklace?"
"But, " I rejoined, "is the necklace given you for your service or for my service?"
I agree. But service rendered by you is as good as rendered by me. I have toiled and moiled for you day and night. Is that no service? You forced all and sundry on me, making me weep bitter tears, and I slaved for them!"
But Gandhi stood firm, determined to return the ornaments and said he somehow succeeded in "extorting a consent from her," and the gifts were all put in the bank in trust, for the community.
He ends that "I have never since regretted the step, as the years have gone by my wife has also seen its wisdom. It has saved us from many temptations.
I am definitely of the opinion that a public worker should accept no costly gifts."
I love this passage, I love her spirit and note that he is remembering it without notes and I think it's clear he appreciated it, too. We took this up in the Women in Literature and not everybody approved of his methods, or the relationship, I personally see a lot of humor and self deprecation in his "extort," what do YOU think about this incident? This is the same man whose quote in the heading about women and men is famous. I think it must be VERY VERY difficult to be married to a saint. Do any of you have any thoughts on this passage or the premise? If our public servants would accept no costly gifts, imagine!!!
ginny
YiLi4
November 14, 2003 - 06:30 pm
3. Does Gandhi embrace any religion whatsoever, other than his own version of God?
Read the first part of another Auto of ghandi I found on my bookshelf and now ponder this question- and think that Ghandi early on questioned the notion of religion- it is possible that has events unfolded, questioning what religion is, why it is, how it is, etc. would have lost support and thus he blanketed what might be a kind of agnosticism with snippets of Buddhism, Hinuism and Christianity.
As we continue this discussion, I find myself questioning my own historical perceptions of Ghandi- reminds me of when my mother late in life began to question her own 'faith' in the religious tenets she'd held - in my youth - hehehehe- I was a blind fan of Ghandi and as a matter of fact until this discussion often used direct or paraphrased quotations to inform speeches and other addresses I've made in my professional life-- not with this in depth look, Ghandi has a bit of tarnish on his HEROIC life- in some ways now I would like that he would have been even braver- especially in the areas of religion. If he questioned the nature of faith and a faith ascribed to a religion I now want that he would have said so out loud. I also now want that he would have been more open about his political intentions- his economic- his social. Perhaps he felt shame about his material goals and objectives- especially when looked at through the Buddhist model-- perhaps he was like so many who achieve power, authority and material wealth and feel a bit guilty- ?
Ella Gibbons
November 14, 2003 - 07:27 pm
The Empire that the Sun never sets on – wasn’t that their claim, TOM! Here’s a clickable to a map of the Empire that may be interesting to some:
British Empire And a brief history, very brief: “The British Empire, established over the course of three centuries, began in the late 16th century with charted commercial ventures in sugar and tobacco plantations, slave trading and missionary activities in North America and the Caribbean Islands. During the late 19th and early 20th century, the British Empire reached the height of its power - ruling over large parts of Africa, Asia and America”
Isn’t it true that the Indians were very instrumental in winning the war in WWI, TOM? Thousands joined up for England? But when WWII came around, they were independent and not so anxious to die again for the Empire.
A WARM WELCOME, DALE! WE ARE ALWAYS SO HAPPY WHEN A NEW PERSON POSTS! Yes, yes, I think I can say for all of us here “that Gandhi had imbued them (Hindus and Muslims and all of India) with a sense of worth greater than that held by men similarly situated in India in dealing with Europeans.!
WHAT IS THIS! NO ONE DID THEIR HOMEWORK? NO COMMENTS ON THE STORM? JONATHAN brought up Lord Mountbatten - that very proper, stiff upper lip sort-of posture, very handsome fellow given the duty of bringing all the British home after Independence – here’s a clickable to his story;
Mountbatten GINNY, would you have given up your well-deserved jewels to your husband when he demanded them? Knowing you, I think your husband might have had a problem on his hands – a problem that perhaps the neighbors a mile away could have heard about!!! Hahaha
I do like that picture of Gandi with clothes on! He looks regal, as he should, but wouldn’t want to, of course. I don’t like the fact that he went around almost naked! And as I’ve said before no one else pictured either in the movie, the documentary, or elsewhere goes around like that – or, Ginny, do you have a picture of others (the untouchables perhaps) that dress the same?
I am not as enamored of this “saint” as you are, and, consequently, I can criticize him now and then, particularly when he did not give his children an education – he scorns the “artificial education that they could have had in England or South Africa” – however, he wanted that for himself very badly at the time, didn’t he? I read somewhere that his eldest child never quite forgave him.
When I read the chapter “EDUCATION OF CHILDREN” it brought to mind several younger people who are home-schooling their children.
WHAT DO SOME OF YOU THINK OF THIS METHOD OF EDUCATION? AND OF GANDHI’S OBSERVATIONS?
And, furthermore, in this chapter should/should we not discuss “brahmacharya?” I’m not going to open up this can of worms unless someone else does – I disagree with him in so many ways, I cannot count them!!
This is, no doubt, JONATHAN’s reference to “vows” I should take before I go to India – I’ll never tell! But I would have no fright crossing the “dark ocean” – done it before, loved it, but have never been to that continent! Was the hymn Gandhi liked so well – LEAD KINDLY LIGHT! I shall hum it loudly all the way and perhaps Gandhi can hear it?
I’m not commenting on this: “Control of the palate is the first essential in the observance of the vow” because now that I have typed that I’m off to fix a nighttime snack that is NOT fresh fruit and nuts……..
Later…..
Ella Gibbons
November 14, 2003 - 07:40 pm
YILI! We were posting together, and I'm with you in questioning this "saint" as many call him. He was human with faults, too. I have no idea how to place him in the area of religion or politics, but he was a leader, no doubt of that, and an effective one. We know that by how many have used his methods effectively.
But religion? Any other comments about his beliefs?
GingerWright
November 14, 2003 - 08:17 pm
But if one has the true spirit of God within they do Not need a Religion to lead them, God does.
Ann Alden
November 15, 2003 - 12:21 am
Here's a quote from another author who believed in non-violence. This is someone that Gandhi truly admired.
You need only free yourself from falsehood and your situation will inevitably change of itself. There is one and only one thing in life in which it is granted man to be free and over which he has full control - all else being beyond his power. That one thing is to perceive the truth and profess it.
Gandhi was very influenced by this man and after reading one of his books, he professed his admiration for the thoughts that were put forth. One of the points that Gandhi made was that he was more influenced by this man and his book than by any fundamentalist who had tried to convert him to Christianity.
anneofavonlea
November 15, 2003 - 01:41 am
Gandhi certainly admired Tolstoy, who was an orthodox christian, and took a tougher stance than Gandhi. Tolstoys stance was tougher, since he was against even civil disobedience, and I feel that was because he had been himself involved in war, and was a reformist.He in fact admitted to a most unchristian existence for many years.
Oh that professing truth was a simple thing though. It maybe for those of the calibre of Tolstoy and Gandhi.
Ginger, religion is simply the pursuit of the ideal life, we have chosen to label christianity, islam, buddhism etc.and I think given religion a bad name in the process.Tolstoy especially saw how christians missed the point, especially in relation to war.Today at least we have the freedom to pick those pieces which we are comfortable in ourselves with.
Regarding whether gandhi is a saint, to me that matters not an iota.The issue of whether he had the right to foist his ideals on his wife is I guess another matter.However I think that between these two, there was a real marriage, and like shakespeare, "let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediment"
Anneo
georgehd
November 15, 2003 - 04:59 am
The group might be interested in this article about present day India that appears in today's NYTimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/international/asia/15INDI.html?hp
Ginny
November 15, 2003 - 05:58 am
Ella and the provocative questions!! Hahaha I love it, really makes you THINK!@
I may be totally wrong, but my understanding is that Gandhi, as we stated earlier, was a Hindu, influenced by Jainism. I guess I have to ask why we think he is making his religion up? What tenets of Hinduism do we see him rejecting?
His Great Soul, or so I think he was, caused him to seek truth and God as others have said above better than I can, and his quote in my last post about doing the due diligence in discipline yourself first seems to explain a lot about him. Yes there are photos of other Indians, here's one of an Indian penitent at the Festival of Chhatra Puja (also called Chhat Puja) it's fascinating and the text says (this is the one where they go down to the water) but the text says "To fulfill their part of a vow, a devotee might have to crawl on the ground to the temple."
Penitent behavior should not come as a surprise to anybody, if you go to Rome today you can see the penitent climbing on their knees a huge flight of stone steps, Henry II walked…was it on his knees all the way to Canterbury? (Here is an account too long to put here of Henry II's own penitence
No deeper humiliation of king before priest is recorded in history,
, the result of his remark having caused Becket's death and Becket himself, it was found, wore a vermin infested hair shirt under his robes, all these things are manifestations, I guess, of penitence, they are not restricted only to India.
But the funny thing is until Ella asked that question about being naked, and I went to look in my books, I never realized how OVER dressed the British WERE in India, it's unreal. For instance, if there is a Durbar, then the British wanted even the Indian Princes to dress up like women, as you see Gandhi complaining bitterly about that at the end of Part III. And he followed that up with "How heavy, is the toll of sins and wrongs that wealth, power, and prestige exact from man!"
And I suddenly realized that Gandhi's dress IS the antithesis of the British, isn't he? Hahahaah HE is resolutely or adamantly, INDIA! And he stayed that way. When calling on the King of England he wore what he normally did, causing great complaint to which he replied, as we know, "The King was wearing enough for both of us." Haahahah Yes, I believe I see it now, even in his DRESS, so different from Nehru, so different, he made and supported his own beliefs and elevated the common Indian. He lived what he said, he walked the walk, as they say, not just talked the talk.
Look at this passage from Chapter XVIII at the end of Part III: [On the sacrifice of lambs] I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitles it is to protection by may from the cruelty of man. But he who has not qualified himself for such service is unable to afford to it any protection. I must go through more self-purification and sacrifice, before I can hope to save these lambs from this unholy sacrifice. Today I think I must die pining for this self-purification and sacrifice. It is my constant prayer that there may be born on earth some great spirit, man or woman, fired with divine pity, who will deliver us from this heinous sin, save the lives of the innocent creatures. How is it that Bengal with all its knowledge, intelligence sacrifice and emotion tolerates this slaughter?"
Those are not the words of a frivolous playboy young attorney politico leader on the rise?
Who, I wonder, would we say is the "great spirit" who has been born since Gandhi's time?? Has there been one?
Here is what the Britannica says on Hinduism:In its traditional form the chief distinguishing features of Hinduism are the doctrine of the transmigration of souls, with its corollary that all living beings are the same in essence; a complex polytheism, subsumed in a fundamental monotheism by the doctrine that all lesser divinities are subsidiary aspects of the one God; a deep-rooted tendency to mysticism and monastic philosophy; a stratified system of social classes, generally called castes, which is given religions sanction; and a propensity to assimilate rather than to exclude.
The article actually addresses Gandhi and his practice of Hinduism!! Undoubtedly the greatest contribution has been that of Mahatma Gandhi, whose unique synthesis of religion and politics provided an ideology for the civil disobedience movement, which was instrumental in gaining India's independence. Appreciably influenced by Christian ideas, which he assimilated to the Hindu outlook, Gandhi gave a new sense of purpose to many Hindus of all classes, and taught them to respect their traditional beliefs and practices, but to adapt them to the needs of the time. Continuing the work of early reformers, he encouraged the emancipation of Hinduism from the system of class and caste, and fostered a sprit of social service.
I'm thinking, Ella, also, in answer to your question, that brahmacharya, or celibacy, is common in 2003, isn't it, in some religions?
What wonderfully provocative questions Ella asks, I find myself thinking when I wake up and when I go to bed, ahahahaha, I think my favorite picture of Gandhi is the one on the billboard, followed closely by this one, on the cover of Wolper's book, look at that FACE!
I'm sorry this is so long but it's hard to summarize Hinduism haahahahah in a post, tomorrow we'll take up Part IV, is there ANY subject you'd like to raise today before we leave the first three parts? Anything you found puzzling?
I am so looking forward to Tom's discussion on the historical background of this and am saving a million photos!
(By the way the Wolpert book on INDIA is out of this world, it's short and an experience? Even the publisher has taken the time to decorate the pages starting chapters with a small elephant, it's a jewel, and so is the writing.
ginny
Ginny
November 15, 2003 - 06:00 am
THANK you George, we were posting together, let's all read it and comment!
ginny
Ginny
November 15, 2003 - 06:21 am
let's ask this one question just for today? Just before we leave Parts I, II, and III?
So far in your reading, what ONE thing stands out for you in these first three parts? Which is the most memorable?
I want to say for my own part but am not sure they are in the covered sections that where he undertook latrine duty really impressed me.
ginny
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 15, 2003 - 07:26 am
Please let me pop in after a long absence, but I have been reading the book along with all of you. The last paragraph of part 3 chapter 5 struck me as a true image of Gandihi's personality. and he says 'approximately' as I am reading in French:
"If I had merely given my children an education that others could not receive, I would have deprived them of practical lessons of freedom and personal dignity that I have given them myself at the expense of literary culture. And when there was a choice between liberty and erudition, who will not say that it is better by far to choose the former than the latter"
In other words, it is better to be ignorant and work at menial tasks and have freedom than to be educated in schools and university. It is better to remain ignorant and be free than to acquire literary culture while enslaved.
His passion for freedom went that far, but first he had to acquire that education and he received a large part of it in England where he was virtually rejected and scorned. It was not revenge, it was solely freedom from bondage that he was seeking.
He recognized his strengths as his method of persuasion was tried and tested in Africa with huge success and he sought, in his deprivation of pleasure, to instill that thirst for freedom he treasured in his countrymen. First, mastering the temptations in himself had to be acquired before he felt he had the courage to transfer it to his people. By giving up the pleasures that the British were buying Indians with such costly silks and imported goods, the Indians wanted to imitate him because he showed them by example what determination to overcome could achieve if you put your heart in it.
His rhetoric was fine tuned to economy of words and a profusion of example. His fasting (Ginny to fast in French is jeuner) risking death every time galvanized the Indians who were afraid he would die leaving them without a leader. The leader who had already planted the seed of blessed freedom from English domination could not possibly die. He had to live to finish the job.
Gandhi was not following a religion per se IMO, he was highly spiritual and can be compared to other prophets who had found the true meaning of earthly living.
Eloïse
MountainRose
November 15, 2003 - 11:05 am
Gandhi "has a bit of a tarnish on his heroic life"----yes, I agree, but that makes me admire him all the more because it shows how human he really was and how consistently he searched for some sort of truth. I have always felt that way about all heroic figures, be it George Washington or Jesus. I prefer knowing about their humanity because if we don't see the humanity we can admire them, but also dismiss them, because we know we can't live up to sainthood, so why bother. But if we observe the real struggle, we can see the path, the self-discipline, the perserverance and the hard work it took to get where they are going. So I love reading REAL biographies and autobiographies that show all the warts of a superior human specimen.
As for making his wife return the jewels, I probably would have been ultra-stubborn about that if I'd been his wife, but she was a wiser woman than I am, because deep down I think she knew what he was facing if she didn't, and that is, criticism from people who would accuse him of "materialism". Others don't separate husband and wife and to most people they are as ONE (a COUPLE). So I understand why he insisted. And I think if she hadn't returned the jewels their relationship would have been changed forever, maybe with just a little more distance from each other and less respect.
I feel the same way about his children. He probably would have given them a good education, but he had those children before his life's path was solidified in his mind, and by the time it was solidified he knew that schooling would cost money, and money means you make compromises. He didn't mind seeking funding for his social work, but he would very much have minded seeking funding for his family, for the same reasons as above, with people accusing him of speaking one way and living another way. I think he also justified his decision, and I'm not sure the justification was totally honest, although his logic makes sense. So I understand it, although his children never did forgive him for that, and in fact, his eldest son became somewhat of a wastrel and even said some "not nice" things about his father to the news media. But I like Gandhi's take on that, and will try and find it and print it later.
As for brahmacharya, it isn't for everyone, and I don't believe he ever said it was. But for a true seeker of God, it is necessary so as not to be constantly distracted by bodily needs, same as the palate. And some people are highly sexed and have a difficulty time with brahmacharya (as he claimed he did) and some have low sexual energy and never miss it and it's also perfectly normal, contrary to political correctness of our day. But it is part of the overall discipline of seeking God without distraction. I am celibate by choice and have been for 8 or so years. I am perfectly content with the way it has simplified my life, amongst other things I've done to simplify my life. Not many people understand it though, and I don't expect them to, nor do I expect anyone to make the same choice.
I disagree with his strict diet and often wonder if he actually got the complete proteins that now we know the body needs, but I can also understand his viewpoint. I have a friend who gave up ALL meat when she found out how badly we treat other living things before it ever gets to our table, but she is very conscientious about getting the complete proteins (rice and beans, for instance, in combination).
I was surprised at Gandhi's view on birth control. It matches exactly the view of the Catholid Church (with some recent modifications), and even though I'm Catholic, I'm not sure I agree totally with that view. I do understand the rationale behind the belief, but I also feel that men and women who live a lifetime together need to be a comfort to each other and often physical joining gives that sort of human comfort, skin to skin. So marriage is more than just "procreation"; it is also there to help the couple to be ONE, and the physical helps the spiritual and mental oneness. Maybe that's also why, toward the end of his life, there are the rumors that he had "naked" women sleep with him. I believe there was not anything sexual about that, and he himself claimed there wasn't; but he needed the warmth and skin to skin of another human body in his old age. Some followers left him for that very reason. But I think that sleeping with a man would have looked even worse to his companions.I keep thinking he should have gotten himself a dog. Wonder if that ever crossed his mind. Hahahahah!
I do think he was grounded in Hinduism, and it looks like he may not have been because he was so tolerant. But I am grounded in Catholicism even though I have much criticism also of the Church and the layers and layers of "stuff" that has been added over the centuries. I also disagree with the Church about a number of things, but it makes me no less Catholic, because I believe in the basics; and the basics are merely solidified by learning from other religions instead of disrespecting them. And I know I'm Catholic only because that's my Western Christian society of which I am part. If I was born in India the way he was I could equally well be a Hindu.
I also think religion gives us the ways of discipline that we need to reach God. Religion isn't perfect and it isn't always right, and sometimes it's downright WRONG, but if you can separate the chaff from the wheat, it can help you not to walk off the cliff by going off on a tangent in seeking God, which human beings are prone to. After all, the methods have been tested for centuries with many wise people who have gone before to help one along if one seeks them out.
So to me he is neither saint nor mystic. He's a human being who struggled mightily to tear the veil from this existence and be ONE with God. I don't think he ever reached his goal though, because he was too involved in worldly things anyway, not in a materialistic way, but politically, which can be equally as distracting. I think if he hadn't been married with all those responsibilities, he might have fared better in his quest, but he had no real choice about that since his family married him at age 13, and he did the best he could. Life threw curves even to him.
In my younger years I saw him as "perfect" and I quoted him all the time without realizing how human and limited he really was, and knowing that about him, makes my admiration for him larger than it's ever been. He struggled, and in the struggle he was as open as he could be and as honest as he could be within human limitations, and he stayed civilized even to his enemies. To me that's all that can be expected of any human being. It gives me hope.
Ann Alden
November 15, 2003 - 04:22 pm
I find this quote from the above link to Gandhi's Pictorial Biograhy to give one a good idea of what Gandhi tried to do with the religion end of his journey. He tried to bring it into the common man's perspective by example.
Gandhi’s, deepest strivings were spiritual, but he did not-as had been the custom in his country- retire to a cave in the Himalayas to seek his salvation. He carried his cave within him. He did not know, he said, any religion apart from human activity; the spiritual law did not work in a vacuum, but expressed itself through the ordinary activities of life. This aspiration to relate the spirit- not the forms-of religion to the problems of everyday life runs like a thread through Gandhi’s career;
So, he wanted to live as the prophets had told the people many times. It seems that that old quote of, "do unto others" takes care of everything if one carries that advice to the end of one's whole life. From business to home, remembering that everything we do can give good or wrong ideas to our fellow man/woman. Its trying to live perfectly and its darn hard. It goes against most of us not to give a sharp retort when someone insults or wrong us. It should make one stop and think about why that happened or why that was said. But its seems that in today's world, we are constantly being advised not to let anyone get away with things. For many, its means being beligerent when one is not really brave enough to give a soft answer to a harsh comment. Life gets tedious, don't it?!! haha!
After reading this book, I think we could call Gandhi a saint. He certainly tried hard to live by his beliefs. My understanding of some of the saints was that they lived their lives as they thought Jesus would. I say this since the title of saint seems to be a Catholic designation. Then there is the miracle requirement. Well, we don't need to go there.
Ann Alden
November 15, 2003 - 04:24 pm
There is a well know Quaker who wrote some books which Tolstoy read but I can't think of his name--Audin? I'll look that up! The man's name is Adin Ballou and here is a pretty good short article on each of the three men.
Quaker thought and Tolstoy
Lou2
November 15, 2003 - 04:52 pm
The traditional Hindu marriage vows:
He: Take one step, that we may have strength of will
She: In every worthy wish of yours, I shall be your helpmate
He: Take the second step, that we may be filled with vigour
She: In every worthy wish of yours, I shall be your helpmate
He: Take the third step, that we may live in ever-increasing prosperity
She: Your joys and sorrows I will share
He: Take the fourth step, that we may be ever full of joy
She: I will ever live devoted to you, speaking words of love and praying for your happiness
He: Take the fifth step, that we may serve the people
She: I will follow close behind you always and help you to keep your vow of serving the people
He: Take the sixth step, that we may follow our religious vows in life
She: I will follow you in observing our religious vows and duties
He: Take the seventh step, that we may ever live as friends
She: It is fruit of my good deeds that I have you as my husband. You are my best friend, my guru and my sovereign lord.
When they repeated these vows in the Gandhi movie, I couldn't catch all of this and was excited to find it in this biography. Along with Ginny's post about the presents I thought you all might enjoy reading this...
Lou
Ella Gibbons
November 15, 2003 - 05:22 pm
GINNY, it is my impression throughout the book that Gandhi, although not rejecting entirely the Hindu faith, is trying on bits and pieces of other religions and claiming some parts of those as his own. What do the rest of you think? I’m no scholar of Hindu, but I will be watching for evidence as we continue through the book.
I think Gandhi’s only religion or faith, if you will, is God. God is truth, he says, over and over. And, in your quote, Ginny, are the words assimilated Christian ideas and preached that although the Hindus should practice their beliefs they should also adapt them to their needs.
I believe he changed forever the rigidity of some of the beliefs of Hinduism, but I cannot point to the page or the words tonight. I do remember his statement – “I am Jew, I am Christian, I am Muslim, I am Hindu, I am India.”
Some religions practice celibacy??? Hmmmmm Of course, priests do or are supposed to, but the common man???
WHAT ONE THING ABOUT GANDHI HAS STOOD OUT IN YOUR MIND> Let’s all answer that.
From a small city in India a man emerged dedicated to making his life mean something and he went to great lengths to find that meaning, what he calls self-realization or God. I know, Ginny, you are not asking for the whole meaning of his life, just an incident, but that’s the best I can do.
Yes, the cleaning of latrines was humbling and we admire him for that – hope he could hold his breath for a long time.
Somewhere, I read that the people from the third world countries, although they bathe and drink the same water develop an immunity to diseases that would kill most of us.
Click here for some beautiful photography of India:
Photos of India HI ELOISE!!! Do you really believe that “it is better to be ignorant and work at menial tasks and have freedom than to be educated in schools and university?”
ROSE, right here in the BOOKS, we’ve read so many biographies of great men – Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, many more and as you say, they all have their warts and I think we need to realize their humanity. There is no saint on earth, hope to see many someday though! And as for funding for his children’s education, the money was given to him as gifts and he insisted on giving it back to the community. SURE, THAT’S A FINE AND NOBLE THING TO DO, but is it noble and fine to deny your children what you yourself had and relished? I think not!
POINT – COUNTERPOINT! Here we are in a grand debate, interesting isn’t it, all the viewpoints – all that you have brought to the table!!!
“So marriage is more than just "procreation"; it is also there to help the couple to be ONE, and the physical helps the spiritual and mental oneness. – Well said Rose, I agree, and thanks for all the other thoughts you stated. Wonderful to read.
“It seems that that old quote of, "do unto others" takes care of everything if one carries that advice to the end of one's whole life. Thanks, ANN - somewhere in the book Gandhi quotes this in some context, can’t remember now, but if we all could just live the Golden Rule as you say, what a world!
HELLO LOU! Wasn’t that done cleverly in the movie – Gandhi and his wife showing the photographer (who was Martin Sheen) how they did their marriage vows and both smiled shyly after that. However, I doubt if any of us (modern women that we are) would agree to follow our sovereign Lords in quite the same way! hahaha
kiwi lady
November 15, 2003 - 05:37 pm
So many posts!
I disagree with Gandhi that formal education is not necessary. It is from formal education that we learn to think and find our own truths.
It is ignorant people who think might is right. It is ignorant people who demand an eye for an eye.
Like Rose I choose to be celibate. Although I lean very much to the left with my politics I am very conservative in my morals. A funny mixture as many tell me!
Carolyn
anneofavonlea
November 15, 2003 - 06:14 pm
I always find it amazing that people think someone is to be admired because they clean latrines, should this be left to we women?
I am interested in those choosing celibacy, inside marriage it may be a difficult position, living alone, it would hardly be a strain.
Anneo
Ella Gibbons
November 15, 2003 - 06:26 pm
Hahaha ANNEO - well, who should do it? The ones who put the mess there to begin with! - But as Gandhi tells us those people were not doing it and it could result in disease - he was attempting to show them it was necessary, so, yes, I think we can admire his spirit in teaching those who had never learned the dangers inherent in bad sanitation.
anneofavonlea
November 15, 2003 - 06:42 pm
I was unnecessarily glib, and you make a good point.
Anneo
Ginny
November 15, 2003 - 07:51 pm
Sorry, I should not have said that was what stood out the most for me, but the sex of the person cleaning the latrines has nothing to do with my choice. You're absolutely right, tho, Anneo and I realized it when I wrote it, it's not honorable or inclusive enough for Gandhi, still, to me, it shows humility and sacrifice: I sure could not do it, woman or man! Just finished rereading Part IV so will see you all afresh in the morning, have a million questions!!
Ginneo
kiwi lady
November 15, 2003 - 09:27 pm
Anneo - Why get married if you want to practice celibacy. Its a mockery of the institution. Thats the way I look at it anyhow.
anneofavonlea
November 15, 2003 - 10:22 pm
I, of course, wouldnt marry to practise celibacy. However Gandhi was married when he came to the belief in brahmacharya, and went down that road.Are you suggesting he made a mockery of the institution of marriage? Thats a whole other issue.
I just feel its really easy to keep one hands out of a cookie jar that is out of easy reach.
MountainRose
November 15, 2003 - 10:41 pm
. . . . there are exceptions, as there usually are. One is illness, where one partner cannot and the other has to use restraint. Another is such as Gandhi's case where he was married at the age of 13, a mere child, and by the time he found his mission he was married with children. I do wonder what he would have done if his wife had said "NO", but I suspect after several pregnancies and several hemorrhages she was fine with his decision, maybe even a bit relieved.
Within the Catholic Church there are rare instances where couples are given special dispensations to be celibate even if married. It is when both people agree that they wish to live in that state, stay married, but pursue spiritual pursuits which include celibacy, and it usually happens late in life. It is then investigated as to sincerity, and dispensation is given, but both have to be in complete agreement. I think that situation would also have fit Gandhi's case to a large degree. I don't think in any of the above cases it's a mockery at all.
As for saints, it's my opinion that all religions have their saints; in fact, that there are even saints in the non-religious world or amongst atheists. It's only the Church that has done the job of publically recognizing her saints, but they are present and accounted for in all walks of life.
I do believe Gandhi was heart and soul a Hindu, because his own writings state that repeatedly in the paper for which he wrote a column and ultimately edited, called "Young India". He may have vacillated at times, but there's no mistake about what he is saying in those columns. His favorite book was the Gita.
I also admire his cleaning of the latrines. Often in order to get people to understand what it is they need to do, one has to show them by example, and he wasn't above doing that. It naturally follows that if someone they admired could do such a job, maybe they could do it too. One thing Gandhi admired about Europeans was their sanitary habits, how organized clean-up was, and how well it kept diseases from spreading. He took what he admired and discarded those things he didn't admire, in society and religion.
I can also tell you that sanitary habits between Indians and the West even today are very different. When I lived in So. Calif the neighboring town was completely taken over by Indians and Pakistanis as they bought up one building after another. There is now a sign at the nearby freeway that directs you to "Little India". And in a place where rats had never been seen before, the rats moved in. I love Indian food, but I would never eat in any of the restaurants because of the things I saw there. But it was very picturesque, a photographer's dream without having to travel, especially on a Saturday when Indians and Pakistanis came from all over L.A. to do their shopping, and they are a friendly people, will answer any question and welcome you into their shops and explain anything you want explained, and often the women are startlingly beautiful.
One day I was in a saari shop because I think it's the most beautiful women's dress ever designed in all of history, and the silks were stunning. A lovely young Indian woman showed me how to wrap the saari as we talked. She happened to be in blue jeans and a T-shirt and I asked her why with all this beautiful fabric around her she would be in jeans. She explained that in India she'd had servants, and when you have servants, wearing a saari is fine because you don't do much. In America she had to do everything herself even though her husband was an engineer. She told me how one day she was in the grocery store with her three children, trying to keep track of them and her shopping list and the cart, and her saari caught on something and unraveled right there in the store as she chased one of her children. That's when she went to blue jeans and only wears the saari for special occasions. We had a lovely giggle about her tale of standing there in her undies in the middle of the store, and I admired her for being so practical and adjusting so well.
I also worked in the clinic in that town, and our doctors often had to actually request a person to go home and take a bath before they came in for examination, especially some of the elderly who were set in their ways. And some of the mental problems of those who couldn't adjust could fill a book, especially the women who were between worlds, the Western feminist/freedom world, and their own world of sometimes abusive husbands and families who usually always supported him, no matter how badly he beat her up. Our docs treated many ugly bruises and lacerations, only to patch them up and send them back into the same circumstances.
I haven't lived in L.A. for eight years now, but I can tell you that it was like a mini-trip around the world to go into all the various ethnic neighborhoods to explore. Most people didn't, but I found it intriguing.
Jonathan
November 15, 2003 - 10:50 pm
'Besides,he dressed, talked and looked like a genuine Asian sage.' Ahmed goes on to quote Mohammed Ali Jinnah's daughter as saying that Gandhi was 'charming', 'sweet', 'enchanting', 'with a sense of humor'. And really, how overwhelmed Dr Holmes was when he finally found himself in Gandhi's presence. "I was too excited and confused to make note of Gandhi's remarks."
Can you imagine such an object of idolatry being told by his oldest son: "Dad, you're deluded." That's the way I read it.
Like Eloise, I'll choose ch5, pt.iii, as the one that most impressed me. 'Education of Children.' If he had wanted to be honest he should have titled the chapter, 'The Neglectful and Haphazard Education of Children.' He struggles long and hard with the truth in this chapter. It's absorbing to see the kind of tortuous mix of truth and gobbledegook he comes up with, to explain and excuse and rationalize the mess he made of educating his sons.
He had to write the chapter to answer the critics who were questioning his 'educational fads'. But his facts are themselves questionable. His arguments are lame. And his moral justifications reprehensibly self-serving.
And yet, he IS being honest...in his own way. Just how honest, can be seen in how well it reflects the anxiety that is torturing his soul. Characteristically, he is all over the self-examination map, as a guise for the genuine parental 'where did I go wrong', which he is trying to conceal. In the end he is practically in a self-congratulatory trance, insisting to himself that history will prove him right. What a lot of nonsense...all this talk of being the 'votary of truth', and a 'votary of that stern goddess liberty.'
It breaks one's heart to read the manner in which his boys were left without a proper education. Gandhi says about his boys: "All my sons have had complaints to make in this matter." They are right. It was a serious matter of educational deprivation, by any intelligent standard.
Why, why, why? He was so well educated himself. Whatever could have made him believe that a literary education meant enslavement. The strange story he tells in the chapter goes beyond experimenting with the truth. More like entertaining strange notions, obviously concerned with self-image as well as public image.
He has a bad case. He knows it. And this time the lawyer so well versed in writing briefs and petitions and convincing journalism, makes a sorry matter of his self-defence. "I was at my wits end." Then, when his boys were young. And now, too, it seems to me, while he is struggling in such a sorry way.
"Those youths whom I called out in 1920 from those citadels of slavery," as part of his politicking were not actually given any stones to break; but were left high and dry and idle. In this case it served Gandhi's revolutionary, rhetorical purposes...after backing himself into an untenable corner, in a futile effort to defend his neglectful good intentions. Kasturba's necklace. The boys' education. All thrown on his own little bonfire of vanities.
No doubt there is an explantion in there somewhere. Early marriage? Early parenting? Perhaps Brahmacharya? Could it be one worm in that holy can? I had Brahmacharya as the answer to every woman's dream that every man should have at least a little of it in his heart, especially at inopportune times.
At this time I would like to jump ahead eighty pages. I'm sorry to take us ahead of the story; but we get such good advice on how to read auto-biography, that it may serve us here and elsewhere. Gandhi writes on page 280:
"I understand more clearly today what I read long ago about the inadequacy of all autobiography as history. I know that I do not set down in this story all that I remember. Who can say how much I must give and how much omit in the interests of truth?...If some busybody (!) were to cross-examine me on the chapters already written, he could probably shed much more light on them, and if it were a hostile critic's cross-examination, he might even flatter himself for having shown up 'the hollowness of many of my pretensions'."
What's this? Gandhi less than truthful? It's true. I'm sure all of us have read and wondered. But he's so human. It's all forgiven. And he does grow in stature as one gets to know him. It must be the Hindu mind. It's so difficult to distinguish between the selfless and the self-centered.
I'm going to be out of town this coming week. With their parents cruising in the West Indies, my two granddaughters, 10 and 5, are going to be getting a lot of my attention. For the older one I have a book of Samurai Tales, which I will permit her to read to me. She's enrolled in martial arts. I know the Mahatma would not approve; but it was the parents decision. For the younger one, I have a Kasturba doll. At least my contact in Bangalore is working on it. In the meantime I've already found the prettiest little necklace for Kasturba. The Mahatma be damned. For the time being I won't tell her the sad story of the real necklace.
ji
Jonathan
November 15, 2003 - 11:01 pm
MountainRose
November 16, 2003 - 12:17 am
. . . was, in retrospect, wrong, but it's hard to know why he actually made that decision. I think Gandhi is also not being totally honest with himself when he justifies it. His eldest son never did forgive him and ultimately even became a Muslim and took the name Abdullah, more in defiance than anything else, I think.
In another book by Louis Fischer called "The Essential Gandhi" he is quoted as saying this regarding his eldest son: "It has been my invariable rule to regard my boys as my friends and equals as soon as they completed their sixteen years. The tremendous changes that my outer life has undergone from time to time were bound to leave their impress on my immediate surroundings---especially my children. Harilal, who was witness to all the changes, being old enough to understand them, was naturally influenced by the western veneer that my life at one time did have . . . . but he chose, as he had every right to do, a different and independent path. He was and still is ambitious. He wants to become rich, and that too easily. Possibly he has a grievance against me that when it was open to me to do so, I did not equip him and my other children for careers that lead to wealth and fame that wealth brings . . . ."
"There is much in Harilal's life that I dislike. He knows that. But I love him in spite of his faults. The bosom of a father will take him in as soon as he seeks entrance. For the present, he has shut the door against himself. . . ."
and then he goes on to say: "Men may be good, and not necessarily their children. Men may be good in some respects, not necessarily therefore, in all. A man who is an authority on one matter is not therefore an authority in all matters. . . . " (Young India, June 18, 1925)
I think Gandhi probably regretted that his energies had been so displaced as his children were growing up, and I think his son's renunciation of him was extremely painful for him. And there is a point where feelings get so "out of shape" and the hurts so deep, that one can't go back and undo anything, because the undoing takes cooperation, and apparently Harilal didn't want to cooperate and instead sold attacks on his father to the highest bidder. Such is often the life of a parent.
It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of the children about their father, and even the viewpoint of the wife with regard to herself and her children.
Ginny
November 16, 2003 - 06:07 am
Gosh I love all the thoughts here, we're all different, it's funny, in some ways Gandhi is reflecting US back as a mirror, isn't he? I enjoy pitting my own limited pitiful knowledge up against new things, how glad I am to have this discussion to share with all of you!
(Anneo I love your new tagline!!)
Joji, we will definitely miss you, Kasturbai doll? I want one! Can your contact get me one? I'm serious!
We will desperately miss you, have fun with the grandchildren, and return even more enlightened!
Ok this morning we enter Part IV and I'd like to have your takes on several issues he raises, where is our Nurse Ratchett? We need you to address, from a medical standpoint, the charge of "What a callous man you are!" from the chapter Kasturbai's Courage, Chapter XXVII. (Don't you love the way he has the chapters indexed? You can find them instantly, love it). At any rate, here Gandhi second guessed the doctors (but note that he asked her as well). What is "beef tea?" (Does that give you any idea of the medical practices of the day? Does the patient sometimes know more than the doctor? What is your opinion of this incident?
I was blown away by Lou's submission of the marriage vows!! THANK you, Lou! Isn't THAT interesting, these "heathens," uneducated and half naked and all, what lofty sentiments they have, amazing and it explains a lot about Kasturbai, doesn't it? After all, as you all said, they married first, and he could have put her aside, too, he wouldn't be the first man to do that, but he did not.
On the subject of education, of course to our enlightened eyes that's a huge mistake. I keep hearing the voice of the mother of the Pueblo Indian child we sponsor in New Mexico. I got in a bit of correspondence with her several years ago on the subject of his English studies, since they speak their native language at home. It was difficult for him in school to adapt to the texts. I don't know what made the subject come up but one day she said to me, he needs to learn his own language first, the other can come later, in school. When I said it would put him at a disadvantage, she said his own language and his own culture was more important. And of course we do know what has happened to the American Indian's culture and languages. So I'm not sure here, me, the woman who taught both her sons to read before 5, I'm wondering what the state of Indian history was then, what the text books said about the Indian, every reference I can find is extremely derogatory, even to the cartoons of the day, and the Indian is always referred to as the N word and much much worse. Nice reading for a child wanting to learn more about his own history/ not exactly in tune with Gandhi's own stated aims of making the Indian proud of himself and his heritage. You will remember , perhaps, the ruling that Indians had to crawl on their stomachs before the British? Perhaps we'll get to this in Tom's discussion.
More important maybe to read in your own languages, note that Gandhi attempted to teach each child in the many languages he or she spoke, there's no doubt by our enlightened standards today he was wrong. But I'm not so sure he's alone in his thoughts, that's about all I can add to his, "I have always felt that the true text book for the pupil is his teacher. I remember very little that my teachers taught me from books, but I have even now a clear recollection of the things they taught me independently of books." Interesting. Let's do a little experiment here of our own this morning, think of your own schooling, what do you remember from a book versus what a teacher taught??? Which stands out more positively (we're only looking here for the positive in this Experiment) the material or the teacher?
more… such a good section
Malryn (Mal)
November 16, 2003 - 06:32 am
As a person who has not had a day free of pain for many, many years of her life, and as one who lives in the kind of poverty that allows only necessities like food and rent and an over-the-counter medication for arthritis pain and other pain with nothing left over for clothes or any other purchases or any sort of recreation besides what is free, (my computer and its use are a gift from my children), it is in me to question the self-inflicted pain and even more deprivation by people like Gandhi. I smile when people say that suffering makes for better, stronger people and even a kind of saintliness. It has not done that for me or other people I've known and know in this situation. For Gandhi to put his principles on his wife and his children and expect them to live by them seems wrong to me.
How does any human being in this world know what the truth really is? The truth is one thing for one group of people and another thing for another. If you were to ask me what the truth is, I never would be able to tell you beyond what is called the Golden Rule in Christianity, even after years of contemplation and thought and study of history and religions.
To emulate God and try to get close to godliness sounds like a good idea, but I have a problem with it. To me and many others, God is a spirit which has no human shape or form and no human characteristics. Am I to aim for that when to me it seems as if the only way to attain true selflessness and the cloak of true spirituality is to die?
What I'm saying, I guess, is that Gandhi's methods seem extreme to me. They are not unlike what is written of the Buddha and Jesus Christ, and other prophets and mystics. Buddha's aim was to achieve Nirvana, complete selflessness which has also been equated with Nothingness. To me Jesus Christ's message seemed to be that if you are "good" here on earth you'll go to heaven after you die. Is nothingness and death to be my goal?
I see that GINNY has posted some provocative and intriguing thoughts. My feeling about me and doctors is that I know my own body better than anyone else. I can decide to be sick or well. I choose to will my body to be well.
GINNY, did you teach your children to read English or did you teach them another language? Beef tea is the water beef is boiled in. It's supposed to make one strong. The best teacher I ever had was not a teacher in any school at all. I remember what he taught me more than anything I ever read in a book.
Mal
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 16, 2003 - 06:56 am
ELLA, no Gandhi said that it is better to be uneducated and free (and poor) than educated and remain under British rule, because no Indian could reach any high political positions while in a British colony.
If he had spent more time with his children in their early years, they would not have turned against him later on. But he was always away, when they needed him the most, working for a larger cause in Africa and later in India and that took precedence over his family.
A husband's large endeavor always takes its toll on the home front because the wife, who has the job of raising her children alone suffers in silence as that was her role in life. She was but a child herself when she married and did she understand what motivated her husband at that time? Later on she did as she got older and supported him fully but her children perhaps resented their father's notoriety.
So he was not perfect but what he did amply made up for his lack of parenting skills.
Eloïse
Ann Alden
November 16, 2003 - 06:56 am
I find this quote from the above link to Gandhi's Pictorial Biograhy to give one a good idea of what Gandhi tried to do with the religion end of his journey. He tried to bring it into the common man's perspective by example.
Gandhi’s, deepest strivings were spiritual, but he did not-as had been the custom in his country- retire to a cave in the Himalayas to seek his salvation. He carried his cave within him. He did not know, he said, any religion apart from human activity; the spiritual law did not work in a vacuum, but expressed itself through the ordinary activities of life. This aspiration to relate the spirit- not the forms-of religion to the problems of everyday life runs like a thread through Gandhi’s career. So, he wanted to live as the prophets(Budda, Jesus, The Tao) had told the people many times. It seems that the Golden Rule of, "do unto others" takes care of everything if one carries that advice to the end of one's whole life. From business to home, remembering that everything we do can give good or mistaken ideas to our fellow man/woman. It means trying to live perfectly and its dar-n hard. It goes against most of us not to give a sharp retort when someone insults or wrong us. It should make one stop and think-- why that happened or why that was said. But its seems that in today's world, we are constantly being advised not to let anyone get away with things. For many, its means being beligerent when one is not really brave enough to give a soft answer to a harsh comment. Life gets tedious, don't it?!! haha!
After reading this book, I think we could call Gandhi a saint. He certainly tried hard to live by his beliefs. My understanding of some of the saints was that they lived their lives as they thought Jesus would. I say this since the title of saint seems to be a Catholic designation. Then there is the miracle requirement of the Catholic church. Well, we don't need to go there.
As to education, Gandhi sounds like an old Hippie! Did anyone see that weird woman, Sharon Osbourne(from the tv program, The Osbournes, interviewed by Barbara WaWa several weeks ago? She let her children quit school because, she said, she knew that none of them were going to become rocket scientists, so they didn't need education beyond the basics. She then acknowledged that she was wrong!! No kidding!
Striving to become the perfect example of humility, Gandhi, didn't stop to see what the world was becoming, when it comes to education. But, I don't think he could have changed his way of thinking, because he was aiming for his India and the people to become proud of being Indian and not slaves to their captors.
Unlike Ji, I want to go slightly backwards in this book and ask this. Was Gandhi mistreated as an Indian in England?? I got the impression that they accepted him as just another student from outiside their country. That his color was not mentioned.
Ginny
November 16, 2003 - 06:57 am
Rose, what a delightful story of the sari, I loved that, thank you for bringing that here, what a colorful wonderful place India is, a land of contrasts and poverty and incredible buildings (and obviously huge spirits). Here is a super photo of the Festival of HOLI in February and March This is the "most boisterous of Indian Festivals… Gay crowds fill the streets squirting colored water on people…The Festival is associated with Krishna At Vishvabharati University (established by Tagore) the students dress up in saffron sarees and wear fragrant garlands. They sing and dance before their teachers and guests who are seated on colorfully decorated dias."
Eloise! So good to see you here, and thank you for the French for fast, I myself have undertaken, after reading how Gandhi started in these fasts, a lessening of food (he'd probably die laughing at what I'm doing, and choke over what all I do eat at night in this "fast," ) and already I do believe I feel the benefits!!
I like your take on enslaved education!
And of course we don't know the NATURE of this education he received, but my course at Oxford was heavy in the writings of the day and the Indian was seen as little better than an animal, witness the General Dyer incident. Here is a popular cartoon of the day entitled English Homes in India 1857 Showing the helpless flower of English motherhood with babe in arms and on couch, threatened with the "fate worse than death" by the murderous Sepoys. (Why does this remind me of the American Indian depictions?)
Wonderful point, Eloise, on "mastering the temptations in himself had to be acquired before he felt he had the courage to transfer it to his people" I agree completely and once you READ his own words, it all comes together, at least for me.
Ella you are funny on the biographies of great men and women we have read, this one is quite different, but I think his aim was different, I can't imagine a modern leader writing anything like this. As far as sainthood, I think you have US convinced that YOU think he was not, now you say there are saints in heaven but not on earth? I don't think whether or not we personally confer sainthood on Gandhi makes an iota of difference, to him, or to us, but I think it would make a good concluding question, thank you for bringing it up!
Rose, thank you for those wonderful thoughts on being grounded in any faith! Now you and YiLi have a completely different take on this and I love a discussion where we can talk about these things, as Ella says, Point/ Counterpoint openly, she says she's becoming a bit disillusioned and you say, "In my younger years I saw him as "perfect" and I quoted him all the time without realizing how human and limited he really was, and knowing that about him, makes my admiration for him larger than it's ever been."
At the end we will ask everybody here what their final conclusions are, thank you both for introducing this subject!
Ann, thank you for that "he carried the cave within him!" Wonderful quote. And this "it goes against most of us not to give a sharp retort when someone insults or wrong us." Exactly, I would like to look closer at the Sharp Practice Chapter today. Oh this is SOOO true, Ann, "But its seems that in today's world, we are constantly being advised not to let anyone get away with things. For many, its means being belligerent when one is not really brave enough to give a soft answer to a harsh comment. " And what control it takes, let's look more closely at the SHARP PRACTICE, Mr. GANDHI chapter today!
Now Ann brings up Tolstoy and we recall Gandhi's ashram here sounds like Thoreau
but it's called Tolstoy and then the other one is called Phoenix and of course none of us have missed the symbolism there: rising from the ashes and reborn.
But is it clear exactly WHY these are named that?
Ella thank you for the fabulous photos of India!!
I agree with Ella, we're in a grand debate here and we're about to have two more, where is Joan, we need her for the Gita, were you astounded at what he said? Let's look at that, too, what a MIND this man has, are you not struck by his mention of so many people by name? What they did? Could YOU do that about all the people you have met in your life and profession? I can't?<br.
The man had a razor brain and we're about to see two evidences of it, let's look at both closely?
Carolyn, thank you for your thoughts on might makes right, I think Gandhi, especially under the yoke of the educated British, would agree with you 100 percent!
Let's look at two of his statements here today and give your own perspectives!
Ginny
November 16, 2003 - 07:11 am
Ann, thank you for those thoughts and this new question, we'll get it up in the heading immediately, and any time any of you have a question, please don't hesitate to voice it for the group!
I want to go slightly backwards in this book and ask this. Was Gandhi mistreated as an Indian in England?? I got the impression that they accepted him as just another student from outside their country. That his color was not mentioned I got a slightly different impression, what do the rest of you think?
Malryn, welcome to the discussion, I am sorry you are in constant pain, I myself am no martyr to pain, and it IS hard to understand how some religious beliefs consider the bearing of pain to be lucky. I will try to find some of Mother Terersa's thoughts on it, it's a tenet of some religious beliefs.
Am I to aim for that when to me it seems as if the only way to attain true selflessness and the cloak of true spirituality is to die? That's an excellent and provocative question, let's put it in the heading, I'm not qualified to answer it but there may be people here who will take a stab at it!
What I'm saying, I guess, is that Gandhi's methods seem extreme to me. Oh yes I think they would be extreme and STRANGE as the professor just said to me, in any Western world, but they are not HALF what some of the Jain monks do, we have to realize the culture of the man and take his religious background, his own mother's fasts, and the influences on him in account, too. We may still say, at the end, he's extreme, I liked Eloise's take on why he did what he did, it may have TAKEN extremism to get people to listen, maybe?
GINNY, did you teach your children to read English or did you teach them another language Well of course I first taught them to read English and then my oldest did learn Latin before first grade?
Thank you for your remarks, Malryn, on the teacher you remember best, I'm going to think on that one a while, want to be sure I don't come out with off the cuff stuff here on serious subjects, let's have a look at TWO incidents today in addition to all these other great questions. It may take a while for Pat to get these new questions in the heading, but please feel free to begin addressing them right from the posts?
George I have not forgotten you or your article, I printed it out and got quite absorbed in it yesterday when I was interrupted. As a former Principal, what is your own reaction to it? I will reread it this afternoon, after the kids leave, thank you for bringing it here.
Two new Topics coming UP!
Ginny
November 16, 2003 - 07:42 am
SHARP PRACTICE:
"is this not sharp practice, Mr. Gandhi?"
I am continually amazed at how Gandhi manages to turn around EVERY situation, every insult, to his advantage. The chapter SHARP PRACTICE, Chapter XLV here in Part IV, is almost a primer of how to do it, it astounds me when I read it.
As Ann so rightly said a minute ago, we tend to bristle at insult and to allow that anger to get the better of us, we WANT to retort and we WANT to tell whoever where to get off.
Here, in court, in his own profession, in a "contest" of wills and cunning which all trials are, Gandhi has been met with some problems: an error in calculation, too small or insignificant to mention, but Gandhi, propelled by his own notion of truth and his faith in the outcome, tremblingly insisted on presenting it, to the statement the accusation he would most abhor.
NOTE what he made of it, Thanks to the judge having raised this question, I was able to rivet the Court's attention on my argument from the very start. I felt much encouraged and took the opportunity of entering into a detailed explanation. The judges gave me a patient hearing and I was able to convince the judges that the discrepancy was due entirely to inadvertence. They therefore did not feel disposed to cancel the whole award, which had involved considerable labour.<br.
Here Gandhi illustrates his amazing incredible potential to turn every situation around to being a gift, to make lemonade out of lemons, even the rotten ones: to see in everything that happens to him an opportunity, no matter what it was, and he does this continually. Is it rationalization? Is it worth trying in our own lives? Could we even DO it? The next time you are furious at the insult or the slight you have received, might you consider it instead some kind of message, or opportunity to even do better, and turn it to your advantage, in every way? How many other instances of this behavior has Gandhi exhibited so far in the book? How would you characterize this train of thought? Or a person who thinks like this?
The other topic I want to bring here (Gandhi speaks of the Boer War, and the Zulu uprising, can any of you shed any light on either of these things? Was that Shaka Zulu? My children used to LOVE that PBS series Shaka Zulu, I thought it was just fiction, it's fact, was IT part of this?)
But here's the second thing I'd like to call attention to: Gandhi's incredible mind. Where is Joan and the Gita? Note here in Chapter V: We formed a sort of Seekers Club…So on the wall opposite [as he was brushing his teeth, Western style] I stuck slips of paper on which were written the Gita verses and referred to them now and then to help my memory. This time was found sufficient for memorizing the daily portion and recalling the verses already learnt. I remember having thus committed to memory thirteen chapters….What effect this reading of the Gita had on my friends only they can say, but to me the Gita became an infallible guide of conduct. It became y dictionary of daily reference."
OK, Joan has bought a Gita specifically for this reading, I have not read the Bhagavad-Gita in a long time, Joan will you please put here ONE verse so we can have some idea of what he's talking about and will you indicate what a chapter might look like?
What is the equivalent of this in our lives? The Torah for an observant Jew, the Bible for a Christian? We are all familiar with the memorization of Bible verses and many of us, perhaps have entire Psalms memorized, do any of us have 13 Chapters of Psalms memorized or 13 chapters of any other religious writings memorized? What do you think of Gandhi's efforts at readings, self education (in ADDITION to his legal studies) and his readings of different religions? He passes this off so casually, it's incredible when you start to make a list of what he's TALKING about, does this hint at an early discipline, one of the mind? Remember also, wasn't the Gita in Sanskrit, a language he acknowledges he was not good at? How many young men do you know who have undertook such a program of memorization? Do you think WE could do the same?
Penny for your thoughts?
Ann Alden
November 16, 2003 - 08:07 am
A different world-a different time! In todays world, with the many distractions that we encounter, I cannot imagine anyone learning so many languages or so many philosophies. And, not only learning them, but understanding them and desiminating them for one's own use. We seem to be too distracted by the world to accomplish such incredible learning.
Can you imagine Gandhi with a computer? Not me! There are a few mystics who are more public today--Thomas Merton would be one. The others are hiding in my head somewhere!!
I think that Mother Theresa followed Gandhi's precepts without mentioning it? Maybe she did!
The pictures of the festival and all the colorful saaris is heartwarming---especially here in downtown Gahanna where the weather leaves much to be desired---overcast and grey here today! And, getting colder as we speak!
ALF
November 16, 2003 - 08:14 am
Did anyone of you catch the article entitled Rationed Reproduction in todays paper about stabilizing the population in India? It says Indian women bear an average of just under 3 children (a steep drop from the six of 50 yrs. ago)and it is placing a burden on development and resources like water and land. There are laws mandating a 2 child norm for members of village councils (panchayats) to show that they endorse restraint.
This move is gaining steam for a national bill limiting parliament member and state legislatures to two children.
The question posed is: "How can you crush the democratically elected people by these laws?" What would Ghandi have answered?
Some are extending it to civil servants as well. Some states have considered denying educational benefits to the the third child! Other states offer incentives for govt. servants who opt for sterilization after one or two kids.
Lou2
November 16, 2003 - 09:00 am
The education of Gandhi's children... Is there a difference between education and schooling? Can you have one without the other? Is it possible to educate yourself with a few basic skills "under your belt"?? especially if you live in an educated thriving atmosphere, as surely Gandhi's home was????
Gandhi's religion... The Dali Lama has several books on the market today... Living Christ, Living Budha, is one... that illuminate pratices of the two religions that enlarge and enhance the other. My next project for this discussion is to read The Kindgom of God is Within You... one of Gandhi's reads... I have found in my ernestingly seeking self a need to look at many ideas for ways to reach out, reach inside and find the Truth for me. If we find guidance or inspiration outside the limits commonly imposed by artifical boundaries are they any less because of the source? For me, this was Gandhi's path also... seeking food for his soul where ever he could find it.
Lou
Lou2
November 16, 2003 - 09:45 am
So sorry... should have looked before I wrote... Living Buddha, Living Christ is by Thich Nhat Hanh... Dalai Lama is Art of Happpiness: A Handbook for Living.... realized my mistake too late to edit my message...
Lou
patwest
November 16, 2003 - 11:00 am
New Questions for Part IV are in the heading.
Ann Alden
November 16, 2003 - 11:50 am
Here's a translation of the Bhagavad Gita
The Bhagavad Gita
Ann Alden
November 16, 2003 - 12:12 pm
MountainRose
November 16, 2003 - 12:23 pm
. . some of them, since I'm not only reading this book about Gandhi but a couple of other ones at the same time right now.
5. No, I don't consider Gandhi callous. He knew not only his wife, but knew her religious beliefs and what she might have wanted. When she was asked, she justified his decision.
Beef tea is probably a strong beef broth which has a lot of protein in it. Vegetarian diets can often lack the proper combinations of proteins, which a broth like this would have provided (chicken broth or fish broth would have done equally well), if that was part of the problem of her illness. The proteins help the body to mend.
Yes, I think patients often know more, or at least as much, in an intuitive way as the doctor "if they are in tune with their bodies". Doctors are merely detectives in the medical field, and often they forget to LISTEN to the patient because their egos get in the way or they are in a hurry. I think a good diagnostician will always listen very carefully to his patient instead of dismissing his/her complaints.
6. His efforts at reading and self-education regarding the Gita reaffirm for me that his Hinduism was very serious. He knew he had taken it for granted and neglected it, and now wanted to instruct himself about it. His readings about different religions served another purpose; to take that which was valuable in it, try to understand it and incorporate it into his life as a Hindu.
I haven't memorized any chapters of my own religious text. Personally I have never believed the Bible was meant to be read chapter by chapter or verse by verse. I think it was meant to be read to get an OVERALL picture of the spiritual truths it tells, not to get caught up in each verse and misconstrue the words because they were taken out of context.
I don't do the same and don't want to try. I read the Bible as I would any other book, for the spiritual information it gives me, without getting bogged down, and I prefer to read it within historical context and knowing why something was expressed in the way it was, which often has more to do with Jewish thought than Christian thought. After all, they wrote the Old Testament, and I trust their meanings (regarding the Old Testament) more than I trust subsequent Christian interpretation, or at least I take it very seriously. I also know not all books were meant to be read as FACT but as allegory or poetry, etc. and just like with a newspaper, one can't read an editorial in the same way as one reads the front page the same way as one reads the sports page or the want ads or the comics. I prefer to read those things that other SAY ABOUT the Bible, but only those writers I trust, such as Thomas Merton, who I think was mentioned by one of the posters here. There's a lot of nonsense written about the Bible, and so a good guide is absolutely mandatory for me, without losing my own opinions and what my conscience tells me.
I have a Hindu friend who lives his life by the Gita. It sounds every bit as moral and enlightening to me as the Bible, and is older to boot. I've never read it, but I've heard bits and pieces of it discussed over a long time. Personally I believe every religion can learn from honest inquiry into other religions instead of this endless butting of heads and insisting one is right over any other.
7. I don't know much about the Boer War or the Zulu uprising, but what I found interesting is that Gandhi was actually on the side of the Boers; yet he supported Britain, because he felt allegiance to the empire at that time, and felt that Britain would also reward the Indians and give more respect to them if they sided with the empire. Of course, that didn't happen, but it shows his tendency to give his enemy the benefit of the doubt.
8. Honesty is disarming, and I think many times when he was so scrupulous he disarmed hard hearts who didn't expect honesty. I've done that in my own life, and when I do, I like to observe the repercussions. Some people get angry because they were taken by surprise or don't understand it; some see the point immediately and, like the judge, try to be fair; some take a while to mull it over and ultimately come back to say (sometimes years later) that they now understand it after it's incubated. And I don't think Gandhi saw this as an "opportunity" to win a case; I think he was sincere in his belief that when one is honest the chances of a fair outcome are better. And he proves that quite often, but it doesn't happen all the time. What he does get though, is respect even from his enemies.
9. I do remember books that left lasting impressions on me AND also teachers that did. When we first moved to Canada I was a little immigrant girl without any knowledge of English at all, but the textbooks in Canadian schools bored me to death after I had learned English. The textbooks in my previous schools at that time had been fascinating, even right from first grade, with simple stories and poems by respected poets, wood cuts by famou artists such as Duerer, history of Europe, science, music---basically incorporating the whole culture into the textbooks from the first grade onward. In Canada it was "Dick and Jane" and I was bored to tears until I found the library and read every book in the children's section. Eventually the librarian allowed me to check out books from the adult section. All those books shaped my thinking AND teachers and people along the way also shaped it. I had a teacher in the third grade with whom I corresponded for over 25 years and we kept track of each other. A wonderful woman, an artist who had totally lost the use of her right hand and arm, and had to learn everything all over again with her left hand. But everywhere she traveled she would sketch and send copies to me.
10. Tolstoy was one of the people Gandhi admired and learned from, and Tolstoy had sort of an ashram in Russia that was a farm, where he experimented with truth also. So it seems logical to name one of the ashrams after Tolstoy. Phoenix, the wonderful bird that rises out of the ashes of destruction, was another good name.
11. I'm not sure how to answer this question except that I think suffering for no reason is nonsense. On the other hand to accept suffering with good grace when it's inevitable can teach much about where your own boundaries are and help define yourself as a person of strength. Suffering for the sake of a spiritual quest is also something I can understand, but don't ascribe to in my own life. I also believe that voluntary suffering is a razor's edge; that one can easily fall into egotism and just suffer for the sake of the ego instead of the goal of disciplining the body. Every major religion that I've ever read about has people who try to get control over their passions by disciplining the body with suffering. I don't think all those people through all those ages are wrong, but some have been misguided. Also, every religion tries to put restraints on suffering and tries to teach that it should never be for the purpose of the ego. The religion is NOT responsible for how people abuse it.
I also believe suffering should be alleviated wherever it can be alleviated, and if the person who suffers WANTS it alleviated.
So yes, even though the cloak of true spirituality is to die, we can learn all along the way and develop or become bitter. It's our choice. I don't think there is such a thing as true selflessness in a human being. In order to live at all we have to be at least somewhat selfish. What was it Schweitzer said, and I'm paraphrasing here: "I am life trying to survive amongst other life trying to survive", and that's another razor's edge.
12. Gandhi seems to have been less mistreated in England than in his own country, although there was probably prejudice in England too. But the fact that he was a student there gave him much more acceptance than as a resident of his own country. I think that's ironic
Malryn (Mal)
November 16, 2003 - 02:12 pm
Beef tea is like beef bouillon without any herbs and spices. The recipe found by clicking the link says to boil one pound of ground (minced) beef in one cup of water. The liquid then strained into a cup. It is an old-fashioned remedy which was used in New England when I was growing up to strengthen a sick person. I had to drink the awful stuff after I was very, very ill when I was a child.
I have fasted at times in my life, sometimes not by choice. I remember two weeks once when I had no money at all and very little food on hand. I lost 18 pounds. The trouble with fasting is that it can make one very weak. In the first few days, it did seem to me that I could see things and find philosophical answers more clearly and easily with the intake of only a tiny amount of food or none at all. The body can get used to not eating, or not eating much, so hunger urges seem to go away. Fasting is not a system I would advise on a regular basis for anyone.
The idea of mortification of the flesh is ancient, actually. To me it seems like an endurance test. There is an example of this in The Da Vinci Code. It's my opinion that anyone who would suffer self-inflicted pain this way intentionally and regularly has something wrong with him or her regardless how religious he or she might be. Life can dole out its own doses of pain without any help from us.
We read and discussed the Jains in the Story of Civiliization discussion when we read "Our Oriental Heritage", the first volume, and discussed Ancient India. The Jains are very extreme in their religious habits. Robby Iadeluca (who is a clinical psychologist) made an interesting comment during this discussion. He said something like "If a person comes to me wearing a mask and tells me it is because he doesn't want to kill any living organism
by breathing it in or breathing on it (as the Jains do), do I say he's fine, or do I say he has a psychological problem?" This certainly puts a burden on a psychologist. In order to know the answer to Robby's question, a psychologist must study every religion on earth.
Will and Ariel Durant show cultural differences among civilizations very, very well in their Story of Civilization study. I know that when I read about India and various religions, cultures and religious practices it really opened my eyes and made me know that the Judeo-Christian beliefs and practices in the West are only a small portion of what exists in the world. It sometimes takes a stretch of the mind to understand others that are different from our own.
Mal
Ella Gibbons
November 16, 2003 - 03:45 pm
So sorry I cannot post much tonight - I have company for dinner, in a dreadful hurry, but it seems you all have plenty to talk about, to ponder - wonderful discussion. I'll look forward to reading all the posts tomorrow morning.
anneofavonlea
November 16, 2003 - 04:09 pm
how it would have been to be "educated" by Gandhi, am I the only parent who feels as though their children were in a way lost by outside education. Dont get me wrong, our three kids all were encouraged to university, two still studying. I often think though the things I am proudest of in them came from their home base, from hearing our rendition, so to speak.
Mal, I guess the pain thing is different when one has a choice.You may not have chosen your "cross", but from my perspective you take it up and move with it in an admirable fashion. Like Gandhi I think there "is no doubt self-denial is good for the soul", having said that, know from experience in the novitiate that only the truly committed need apply.
Last year I lost a friend, aged 52 who had suffered all her life from crippling rheumatoid arthritis.She had 5 children, she reared better than most, doing all for them, always in extreme pain. her death was slow . She was bedridden for last two years, breathing with a machine and finally unable to talk for 6 months. No single person, before or since has influenced me more, she never complained, always seemed to smile, and genuinely felt blessed by God.I would certainly never think that Cathy's form of acceptance could or should be attained by self injury, but it leads me to understand why earlier mystics and seekers of enlightment thought pain a way to nirvana.I have no doubt that her life was lived purer and closer to God than any other life I have been privy too.
Belatedly, the point where I feel surest of Gandhi, is the one where he literally tries to throw his wife out.We are told by so many religions to place our faith in only God, and yet that is difficult.I so always look for my God, in those around me, and continued loyalty from those souls, strengthens my belief.The loyalty of this woman to this man speaks volumes about their shared need of each other.
Jonathan, you make some great points, but if you truly believe, as you suggest,that women embrace brahmacharya, with a certain relief,perhaps that is to do with bad experience rather than todays norm.
Would that I could live up to the tag Ginny.
Anneo
Persian
November 16, 2003 - 09:41 pm
IMO, fasting is a very personal decision, even when one may be doing so due to the lack of funds. In our society, we have access to food through various church, community and humanitarian organizations at the local and State levels: food for the homeless, unemployed and those without funds are readily available.
Fasting for religious purposes is also a personal decision, depending on the rigor with which one follows the dictates of the religion. We are in the midst of the "fasting month" of Ramadan for Muslims, a time of great reflection on one's own behavior towards others, involvement in charity towards those who have less, and deep inner commitment to reallocate one's thoughts and financial resources in the future for the improvement of others.
And then there are "personal times of fasting," as one does in combination with prayer. When my son was deployed to Iraq as a Chaplain, I undertook a 40 day fast, combined with a prayer vigil.
I did the same thing in 1982, when he left on his first Army tour. For me, it was important - and natural - and food was NOT of any interest to me.
As we have seen with Gandhi, fasting does indeed clear the mind and one can (occasionally) move into a different perspective zone. Each of us is different and we experience events (whether happy or sad or rigorous) in different ways and with different results.
As I've read along with the posts here, I have also been re-reading about Badshah Khan (Abdul Ghaffar Khan), known in Gandi's time as "the Frontier Gandi), whose comments about Gandhi and his wonderful experiences with and encouragement from him are detailed in the book A MAN TO MATCH HIS MOUNTAINS. As we've read and discussed, Gandhi's influences were enormous and broadlypread throughout India and other areas of conflict.
In our own time, we can certainly look to Gandhi and his associates for spiritual renewal; respect his deepest commitment to nonviolence in all aspects of life; applaud those who followed his examples (like the wild Pathan tribes of the Great Frontier who founded an Army of God and utilized nonviolence as their "weapon of choice." Yet, we also should understand his foibles and perhaps sympathize with his children, who resented Gandhi's deprivation of their education. He made those decisions based on HIS choice of what would suit his lifestyle, NOT their future lives.
MountainRose
November 16, 2003 - 10:03 pm
"It's my opinion that anyone who would suffer self-inflicted pain this way intentionally and regularly has something wrong with him or her regardless how religious he or she might be."---- that St. Francis had something wrong with him? That Sir Thomas More with his hair shirt had something wrong with him? That all those throughout history who took up suffering voluntarily had something wrong with them?
I must admit when I have read biographies of St. Francis I was shocked by what he put his body through, and I wouldn't do it, but the fact is also that he was also a truly HAPPY person. How exactly is that wrong?
JoanK
November 16, 2003 - 10:08 pm
Sorry, Ginny, I was out this weekend, and am just catching up with the postings.
How long is the Gita? A verse is a sentance or two. Chapter 2 (which is a summary of the whole is 70 verses. There are 18 chapters.
The section that I posted (posts 270, 271) is the section that Gandhi considered the heart of the Gita. It is Chapter 2, verses 54-70 (17 verses). It took up less than one of these posting pages.
Although it is short, it is very condensed. I am trying to read it with commentary, and haven't gotten very far.(I am reading the version translated by Eknath Easwaran, Nilgiri Press).
Some example verses: "Just as a reservoir is of little use when the whole countryside is flooded, scriptures are of little use to the illumined man or woman, who sees the Lord everywhere (Ch 2 v 46)
"They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in them, who have renounced every selfish desire and sense craving tormenting the heart (Ch 2 p. 55)
Some examples
Malryn (Mal)
November 16, 2003 - 10:18 pm
MOUNTAIN ROSE, I was talking about today, if that makes any difference. As I said earlier (or words to this effect), life can bring so much pain all by itself that I personally think self-inflicting more is unnecessary. I certainly am not criticizing your saints, however. Chacun a son gout.
P.S. You do like to come after me, don't you? ; )
Mal
JoanK
November 16, 2003 - 10:37 pm
Two different thoughts on his decision to educate his children:
I was home schooled by my mother from ages 7 to 14.I feel it really affected who I am, mostly in good ways. She taught me and my sister until we were 8 or 9, and then just gave us the books, and let us teach ourselves. I am still teaching myself, and treasure the opportunity to have learned how to do it. On the other hand, it was torture, entering a school system for the first time as a shy teenager. I didn't know how to sit in a classroom, and keep my mouth shut when nonsense was talked. I still don't.
But, we tried home schooling our son, at a time when he was having trouble in school. It was a disaster. Like Gandhi, neither my husband nor I had the time to devote the attention that was needed. And Dan is a very different kind of person than I am. We saw that it wasn't working, and were able to get him back into regular classes.
I think the fact that Gandhi didn't want his children to go to school, shows that he may have been hurt by the English educational system with its racism and classism more than he will say.
From a different point of view, there is a pattern to some of Gandhi's decisions: school (in the English system, the "public schools" he refers to mean private schools, and would have been expensive), and cancelling the insurance policy for his family, saying his brother could take care of them, and then quarreling with his brother because Gandhi wouldn't pay his share to take care of other family members. He seems not to be willing to spend money for the welfare of his family that could be use for his cause, but justifies it on other moral grounds. I think that other social activists have done the same thing. From my Western point of view, he had a right to make those decisions for himself, but not for his family. As a western woman, it boggles my mind that he assumes that these were his decisions, and not his and his wifes, jointly. I have always felt that we humans are BOTH partly universal and partly prisoners of our culture and our limited nature. We see this very clearly in Gandhi.
Persian
November 17, 2003 - 12:02 am
It's interesting (in a conflicting sort of way) that Gandhi seemed to have "deprived" his family in some ways, yet so strongly encouraged the development of women (especially in the rural areas of India and along the Frontier), as well as those adherents who also spoke out for women. As we watch the "public faces" of our elected officials and public figures today when they are so tremendously aware of their public personas, isn't there a strong self-awareness of this in Gandhi's behavior. Does he display hypocrisy (at least within his own family), as well as the positive behavior for which he was more often known and admired?
TigerTom
November 17, 2003 - 09:34 am
Gandhi,
When he deprived he wife of the Ornaments he was going
against Indian Custom. Among the average Indians a lack
of trust in the banks is widespread. So, their wealth is
either buried or worn by the females in the family. It is
a matter of pride for an Indian woman to be able to wear
these ornaments. One can see grown women and even young
females with a good deal of Gold jewelry on them. Ghandi
was being selfhish when he deprived his wife of these
ornaments.
Same with his children. Another matter of pride among
the average Indian is the ability to educated his children
so they can hope for a better life. Gandi's parents made
sure he got the best education they could afford which
included being educated in England.
A study in contrasts
would be Gandhi and Jinnah: Both attended school in Endland
and studied law there and both were subject to the same
treatment. Gandhi chose his path after living in South Africa
and Jinnah after being educated and living in England. Jinnah
was an "English Gentelman" dressed and lived like one all of his
life. Was comfortable moving in English Society. He liked
Good Scotch, living well, beautiful Women, and money.
Gandhi was different but both were nationalists and both
were strong willed men.
Tiger Tom
Ella Gibbons
November 17, 2003 - 10:14 am
"About this time I read of the formation of a 'No Breakfast Association' in Manchester. The argument of the promoters was that Englishmen ate too often and too much, that their doctors' bills were heavy because they ate until midnight, and that they should at least give up breakfast, if they wanted to improve this state of things."
I am quoting this from the VII Chapter titled "Experiments in Earth and Water Treatment" and I am struck by how this argument is relevant today as we are constantly bombarded by facts and figures of obesity among Americans, particularly the young ones.
I would not recommend that we skip breakfast, but what can be done about obesity in our society?
Gandhi tells us that he did indeed skip breakfast and believes in doing so, he cured himself of headaches. Impossible????
Now Gandhi is absolutely convinced of his
EARTH TREATMENTS which consists of putting a bandage of clean earth moistened with cold water and spread like poultice on fine linen. Applied at bedtime, he believes it miraculously cured him of constipation!
Ridiculours? Or could it be true?
Then this statement:
"Though I have had two serious illmesses in my life, I believe that man has little need to drug himself. 999 cases out of a thousand can be brought round by means of a well-regulated diet, water and earth treatment and similar household remedies. He who runs to the doctor.....for every little ailment,.....not only curtails his life, but by becoming the slave of his body instead of remaining his master, loses self-control, and ceases to be a man."
I am not overweight for my age of 75 and for the most part eat regular and good meals; but still I must take pills for chlosterol, blood pressure, estrogen and the occasional aspirin for headaches and pain of arthritis.
I cannot believe that Gandhi's earth treatments would be effective in any of those problems. Is it possible that because of how thin he was he had little of these troubles that afflict most of us in our later years.
Do you feel you are a slave to your body or master of it?
MountainRose
November 17, 2003 - 11:04 am
. . . states: "I didn't know how to sit in a classroom, and keep my mouth shut when nonsense was talked. I still don't." --- and I still don't either, when I am present; but most of the time I remove myself precisely because I seem to look at the world quite differently from the society I live in, and prefer to read books by people who know whereof they speak. Sometimes I can actually see the value in not speaking at all, the way some monks live, because our world is filled with endless noise, most of it nonsensical and useless.
And I agree with your assessment that Gandhi may have made justifications for not giving his children the same sort of education that he had because of money. But your other point that he may have been hurt by the English school system is one I never thought about before, and it's probably very true. He was sensitive to nuances and feelings. Thank you also for the Gita quotes. Your particular examples pretty much go along with my own thinking.
Tom, thank you for the pointing out the difference between Gandhi and Jinna. Just goes to show that the same sort of enviornment can do different things to different people because of their various tempraments. That's true even within a family. I prefer Gandhi as a role model to Jinna.
Mal, I'm not sure why you think that asking a question is "going after you". Actually I read very attentively, and your posts are very interesting, but when I have a question I ask it, or if I have a comment to make I do, just as you do. Where exactly is that "going after" you? I think you are a highly intelligent woman, one where conversation becomes very interesting, even though we differ. And no, the fact that you are talking about today makes no difference at all in my mind. Adults who make rational decisions, who know the reason why the make them, who hurt no one else, and who know the consequences, should be able to make those decisions without being told there is something wrong with them, even in this day and age. Otherwise why not spray the whole world with Prozac to fit into a narrow little channel of what is socially acceptable? As an artist, your comment just truly puzzled me, and still does. But as you said, chacun son gout (don't have the little accent handy).
Malryn (Mal)
November 17, 2003 - 11:08 am
Earth treatments worked for Gandhi because he believed they would. To me he's a prime example of mind over matter.
I believe that most Americans go to the doctor much too often. I also believe they take some medications that are not really necessary, and they don't do much about thinking themselves well. I'm convinced that the brain is an important factor when it comes to being well.
I've noticed among some seniors I know that they can't seem to tolerate the slightest deviation from feeling great, in other words feeling the way they did when they were 35. If you go to a doctor and tell him a symptom or symptoms, he's going to try to find out what's wrong with you and treat it with drugs without trying a different method unless you tell him to.
My grandparents rarely went to a doctor. They treated their complaints with old-fashioned home remedies which much resembled many treatments suggested by some alternative medical practitioners today. The funny thing was, these old-fashioned remedies worked. That's because my grandparents and people like them believed they would. They both lived to be well into their 80's.
Today's American society is bombarded with stories about illness in the newspapers, on the radio and TV. They also are bombarded with ads for drugs. I told my daughter the other night that anyone coming here from a different country would think we are the sickest people on earth because of what they'd see on TV.
I've always hated breakfast. I'm never hungry when I get up in the morning, and breakfast foods have never appealed to me. Would eliminating breakfast help with weight loss? Maybe. Eliminating fast food hamburgers and French fries and soft drinks loaded with sugar and big, unwise meals at lunch and dinner out would.
We're gullible to advertising, especially what we see on TV, and everyone's in a hurry to do what I don't know. Grab your food at a drive-through and eat it in the car because you might not get to where you're going in time. You know if you don't, the sky will fall in.
Jump in the car and drive two blocks to get there quickly, and don't ever think of walking that far and back. That's a sure way to put on weight.
We don't do many of the things we did in our childhood (yours and mine, ELLA; we're the same age) because things have been made so much easier for us. We don't even walk half a mile to the bus stop any more.
I practice what I preach. I don't go to the doctor very often because I can tell when I'm sick or well, even if I carry around pain most of the time. The strongest and only medications I take at this moment are over-the-counter Aleve and only occasionally Tylenol for pain. When I see a doctor, he tells me to continue what I'm doing because I'm fine, or as fine as I can expect with the damage polio brought to my body 68 years ago. I accept that, and I accept some inconveniences just plain aging brings. I don't expect to be what I was even ten years ago. Why should I complain? I've lived to a ripe old age, and with luck I'll live a good deal longer.
Gandhi's methods worked well for him because he believed in them and believed they would. Whether he had the evangelistic right to try and convert others to his methods is questionable, but I think some of his health ideas were sound.
Mal
MountainRose
November 17, 2003 - 11:15 am
. . . different from Gandhi's because he was a vegetarian and did a LOT of walking. During the Zulu uprising he sometimes had to walk 40 miles a day, and when he lived in one of the Ashrams it was 5 miles to the town in which he worked, and he walked that distance.
We are a sedentary society who also have an overabundance of food. That puts a different spin on the illnesses we have. He himself warned in one paragraph that his "quack" treatments are not always reliable, as he learned from his own experience. The fact that he called himself a "quack" was interesting to me too and showed a sense of humor and that he knew he didn't have the final knowledge or ability for healing.
I always find it interesting that people today buy all sorts of fancy exercise equipment, go to a gym, but sit in their cars to go anywhere. We do it mostly, I think, because of the lack of time in our hurried lives, and even with the way our society has been built around the comfort of cars and not pedestrians; but actually it would make more sense to me to try and walk everywhere and skip the exercise equipment and the gym. To me it seems like double energy being used up, sort of like trying to fill a cup with a hole in it.
MountainRose
November 17, 2003 - 11:21 am
. . . I feel. I call it a "wide comfort zone". And yes, I do read your posts very attentively.
I've worked in the medical field for over 35 years, and in my opinion we are still in the dark ages as far as treting most chronic illness, and we do overmedicate ourselves. I know when I'm "sick" and when the body will heal itself, and resented the fact that when I worked in a corporation every time I stayed out for a fever or 3 days (very rarely) a note from my doctor was demanded. I never complied because I had seen no reason to run to the doctor and wan't going to do it unless they paid for my visit. So they dropped the request and let me slide. Good thing too, because I would have challenged it to the nth degree.
MountainRose
November 17, 2003 - 11:31 am
. . . these days a lot of what they call "preventive medicine" is performed, the lab tests, the mammograms, bone scans, colonoscopies, all of which I personally feel are not necessary. Yes, they may catch "something" early, but 99% of the time they don't. And I'll take my chances. But I am known as a "noncompliant patient" because I don't follow the AMA guidelines as far as physical preventive medicine that they recommend. I was pressured for years to take hormones, which I absolutely refused, same with a bone scan and colonoscopy, although I cooperate with a mammogram every 5 years or so only.
Whatever the AMA guidelines are, is also what insurance companies are willing to pay for, even HMOs, and so the pressure is on from doctors to have all these tests done because they know they will receive easy payment.
I also understand that a doctor has to recommend those tests, or he may be liable for lawsuits if something is missed, but at the same time it should be (and is) the patient's decision to go along with it or not. And I don't understand why such a patient has to be labeled as "noncompliant", but they are. Oh well!
My mother had a lot of great home remedies, and I still use them, and most of the time they still work.
kiwi lady
November 17, 2003 - 01:03 pm
I agree with Mal. I take only Panadol which I think is our equivalent to Tylenol for pain and use home remedies and heat as my pain management staples. All those very strong pain killers do damage to the liver and kidneys if taken on a constant basis. Mum has to have blood tests every month because she has Pagets disease and has been in the most dreadful pain.
My Indian friends fasted one day a week from sun up to sun down and had only water during the fast period. It was something to do with their religion. They were not overweight! They ate no beef and a small amount of chicken and fish as part of their diet. They ate about half the portions that most Westerners eat. I think we eat far too much and go about in a condition "drunk " on food. Like drinking perhaps we should eat in moderation.
Carolyn
Ella Gibbons
November 17, 2003 - 05:10 pm
We should all take heed of Gandhi's advice - eat less, exercise more and put earth poultices on when we have a health problem!
Shall we all fast for a day? I'm willing!
I've never fasted a day in my life; of course, I would have to fix stuff for my husband as he would think this idea absurd!
Have you read KASTURBAI'S COURAGE, Chapter XXVIII? If so, do you think Gandhi acted correctly? Was he callous as the doctor said?
We are not told what kind of operation Kasturbai had, but imagine any surgery without chloroform? Was that because she was too weak do you think? Or was there another reason why she was not given chloroform? That isn't clear to me.
kiwi lady
November 17, 2003 - 05:41 pm
Ella you get to eat dinner after sundown and get to drink iced water or fruit juice during the day.
Carolyn
Persian
November 17, 2003 - 06:43 pm
We've been fasting during the current month of Ramadan (no food or liquid during daytime) and eat lightly after sundown and before sunrise the next day. The system adjusts within a day or two. At various times (usually in conjunction with a prayer vigil), I've experienced no discomfort during fasting and occasionally felt a true "lightness of spirit."
One of my Eastern friends told me several years ago that a regular portion of a meal for an American would feed 4 in her family. That was truly something to ponder!
Ginny
November 18, 2003 - 05:47 am
George's article from the NY Times above is quite interesting, India appears to be turning to private schools because of the awfulness of the public schools, no latrines, etc. 40 million Indian children not IN school. It quotes a cowherd who is paying for his child's education (I think it's a rupee a month) as saying he feels education is the way for his child to escape his fate as a cowherder: a way to get ahead. The father is quoted as saying that he hopes the child will become a "big officer."
It's interesting because we know that Gandhi had other hopes for his children, and set about educating them accordingly for that role.
Mahlia, welcome to the discussion! What an interesting thought on the portions we eat, no wonder we're all obese!@
No I don't think Gandhi was hypocritical at all in his life, just the opposite. In this section he clearly points out over and over that he treated the children who were sent to him of all faiths exactly like his own children, and attempted to keep instruction for them IN their faiths.
As a celebrant of Ramadan, a Muslim holiday, I would be interested in your opinion of Jinnah, shown here with Gandhi, I've heard no good about him from any scholar I've encountered, do you have any light you can shed for us on his character?
I've ordered Wolpert's book on Jinnah to read for myself, I think he'd make a fascinating discussion subject some time in the future.
Ann, you're right, that was a different time, but I think scholars still may behave as Gandhi did, we just don't hear about it on the news, Gandhi with a computer, now THERE'S a thought, I bet he would not work it himself but I bet he'd use it to promote his causes!!
After all the Vatican has a website@
Andrea good point on the birth rate in India, I don't know what Gandhi would have answered, somewhere in the dim recesses of my brain is the knowledge that he ….I'm not sure, but of course India had to do something, they have a BILLION people there and the percentage as Tom says with nothing is overwhelming. Thank you for that!
Lou, what an intriguing question you raise, "schooling versus education!" I love this, I think it needs to be in the heading, If we find guidance or inspiration outside the limits commonly imposed by artificial boundaries are they any less because of the source?
Thank you for putting up the questions, Pat! Pat's working overtime on this heading, and we appreciate it!
THANK you Ann for the Spoken Gita, incredible site, and for the text. I notice in my class in India the Indians there referred to Krishna AS "Lord Krishna" without a blink of the eye, I find the entire subject fascinating.
Rose, thank you for your responses to the questions in the heading, glad you like them. This is an interesting statement, "His efforts at reading and self-education regarding the Gita reaffirm for me that his Hinduism was very serious." Can you sound out your Hindu friend about Gandhi? Was he or she present at the Partitioning? I have temporarily lost my email address for our Guest Speaker but we have the entire month of Tom's discussion yet for me to find it. Essentially some blamed Gandhi for the Partitioning, some blame Mountbatten, and even the staunchest Mountbatten supporters have to admit he was in haste. WHY he was in haste will be debated for centuries, but Tom will get to it next month.
Yes Gandhi was on the side of Britain all the way up to General Dyer I believe and that turned him. Maybe we need to look more at the Dyer incident tomorrow?
do you all know what it was? If you saw the movie you recall the guns trained on the people in the square? The bodies in the well? Gandhi standing by the well? Do you know any more of the particulars? The statistics? What happened to the officer, General Dyer, so chillingly portrayed in the movie by Edward Fox?
Let's do a little bit of research on the General Dyer incident which changed Gandhi forever for tomorrow?
I am fascinated by the Wolpert biography, and Kasturbai's jealousy of Gandhi's female disciples, more on this anon.,br>
Rose, what a beautiful story of books and your own third grade teacher, how lucky you were!
THANK you for explaining the names of the ashrams! VERY interesting perspective on suffering for penance, thank you!
Malryn thank you for your explanation of the Jains as you all studied them in the Story of Civilization, I wish I could point to my own back post on the subject but above for those of you joining the discussion I have put the tenets of Jainism, as well.
Anneo, I think your perspectives on education are shared by a great number of people now in the US, my problem with THEM is they are not qualified, especially in the higher schools, to teach, it worries me, as Ella asked earlier, home schooling in America. I had a group of home schooled children come out here to the vineyard, the children were of mixed race and incredibly beautiful, eager and happy, sort of a Montessori experience, it seemed. I don't know how such children get on when they graduate (do they get a diploma?) I don't know how they get on in the harsh world we all have to live in. Don't know the stats. Maybe they're making it a better place.
Thank you for that moving testimony of your friend, I am sorry for your loss. Andrea has also suffered a similar loss last Thursday and we extend our condolences to her, as well.
Mahlia thank you for that interesting personal experience with fasting!
JOAN!! There you are I've been wondering where you got to, thank you for that summation of the Gita, I have gone back and (couldn't remember where your post was) and copied this out, so the verses are a sentence or two and Chapter 2 is 70 verses, so to memorize 13 chapters is pretty darn good!
Here's the Gita from Joan's previous post, thank you Joan: Good heavens, I can't imagine memorizing this:
"ARJUNA: Tell me of those who live established in wisdom, ever aware of the Self, O Krishna. How do they talk? how sit? How move about?
SRI KRISHNA: They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in them, who have renounced every selfish desire and sense craving tormenting the heart,
Neither agitated by grief nor hankering after pleasure, they live free from lust and fear and anger .Established in meditation, they are truly wise. Fettered no more by selfish attachments ,they are neither elated by good fortune nor depressed by bad. Such are the seers.
Even as a tortoise draws in its limbs, the wise can draw in their senses at will. Aspirants abstain from sense pleasures, but they still crave for them. These cravings disappear when they see the highest goal. Even of those who tread the path, the stormy senses can sweep off the mind. They live in wisdom who subdue their senses and keep their minds ever absorbed in me.
When you keep thinking about sense objects, attachment comes, Attachment breeds desire, the lust of possession that burns to anger. Anger clouds the judgment; you can no longer learn from past mistakes. Lost is the power to choose between what is wise and what is unwise, and your life is utter waste, But when you move amidst the world of sense, free from attachment and aversion alike, there comes the peace in which all sorrows end, and you live in the wisdom of the Self".
Jeepers what a mind that man must have had!
This is a good one: "They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in them, who have renounced every selfish desire and sense craving tormenting the heart (Ch 2 p. 55)
And it would seem that was what he was trying to do.
On the subject of Gandhi's children, which we have raised here, his oldest son apparently chose to be a bad one, which caused him a lot of pain, as far as I know the others followed him, certainly his grandson is in charge of the Gandhi/ MLK Institute, maybe we should write and ask them how the children turned out?
The eldest son of a famous or powerful father often comes to grief, how many times have we seen it? George VI's eldest son plops to mind immediately and there have been countless others, you see it everywhere. I'm not sure we can blame Gandhi for that one.
Joan thank you for that first hand look at the home schooled in a public school! You are the first home schooled person I have met, would you recommend that for others today? I agree with you that something in Gandhi's education turned him off from it for his children. And the question of did he experience discrimination in London I think has to be answered yes, the first three parts if you look are quite subtle in gratitude toward Lady XX who was not ashamed to be seen with "colored," I mean he's quite clear here, or so I thought.
This is an excellent point, Joan, and may be his Achilles heel: "As a western woman, it boggles my mind that he assumes that these were his decisions, and not his and his wife's, jointly."
Tom thank you for those insights on the character of "ornaments and the Indian." I'm not sure I agree that Gandhi was being selfish, he gave them in trust to the greater community.<br.
Good point on Jinnah's tastes, as I said I have never heard a scholar praise Jinnah so am interested to learn more in your own discussion.
Ella, I don't know if Gandhi's claims on diet and earth remedies are ridiculous or not, they've just gone back to the medieval leech as the best way to clean wounds, I don't know what to think!
Malryn a good point on our sedentary society, and I recall that Gandhi walked everywhere which he also espoused for long life. I don't know why, Ella, so many today are on so many medications, it seems that we all have high blood pressure now, I wonder how any of our ancestors lived at all (and some did) I guess more of us live today!
Ella, I missed the operation without chloroform entirely!
Thank you Carolyn for that information on the eating after sundown, seems like that would keep you up all night, it always does me! Hahaha
OK lots of great thoughts, nothing yet on the Zulu uprising or the Boer Wars, hopefully some of you know something about that, let's look today more at some of Gandhi's statements here in this Part IV, a lot of stuff here today!
more… Here is The Ganges River, where those who had touched someone or something unclean might purify themselves, does anybody understand the sacred nature of the Ganges? I know in my class they said it was now polluted and so people no longer thought they might purify themselves there, what do you know about the Ganges?
Ginny
November 18, 2003 - 06:25 am
I've switched over to a larger text and am enjoying the read more, it's amazing what a difference it makes to have larger print (it's not LARGE print but it's not that tiny stuff either). Here are a few things I wonder about in Part IV, do any of you have any questions as well for the group?
I loved his descriptions of the Transvaal when he got there, a "howling wilderness," it does give you a feel for what he was up against, it might have defeated a lesser man, certainly there were plenty of MEN around at the time? The Indians had very few rights which he set about to change, in small quiet steps, cordially.
I don't see how anybody ever stood up against the man and isn't it intriguing that his handshake as related by Jonathan was firm, this thin emaciated little guy, just like Tom has related Mother Teresa's strong handshake, again a tiny little presence. Here's a great quote from this Chapter III: We my not look forward to any reward for our labours, but it is my firm conviction that all good action is bound to bear fruit in the end Let us forget the past and think of the task before us."
I love that!!
Chapter IV: "The chief thing about theosophy is to cultivate and promote the idea of brotherhood." What IS theosophy? What effect has it had on any modern movement?
Chapter VII: "A writer almost always presents one aspect of a case, whereas every case can be seen from no less than seven points of view, all of which are probably correct by themselves, but not correct at the same time and in the same circumstances." What ARE these seven points of view? How many can you ascribe to Part IV or Gandhi's autobiography as a whole so far? Which one do you think is predominant? What is YOUR POV (point of view) so far on this writing?
Chapter VIII: "I shall content myself with merely declaring my firm conviction that, for the seeker who would live in fear of God and who would see Him face to fact, restraint in diet both as to quantity and quality is as essential as restraint in thought and speech."
Where does Gandhi get these principles? Are they part of Hinduism?
Chapter IX: "For we are all tarred with the same brush, and are children of one and the same Creator, and as such the divine powers within us are infinite. To slight a single human being is to slight those divine powers, and that to harm not only that being but with him the whole world." How did Gandhi put this belief into practice? How did it get him into trouble?
Chapter XIV: "The newspaper press is a great power, but just as an unchained torrent of water submerges whole countryside and devastates crops, even so an uncontrolled pen serves but to destroy."
Gandhi's reflections on the power of the press seem especially prescient in today's application, what is your own opinion of the power of the press? Does it hurt or harm?
Chapter XVII: Gandhi quotes from John Ruskin's Unto This Last , and distills the Three Truths he believes it contains. Have you read this book and do you agree with him on these truths?
I have one sentence he wrote I can NOT understand and wanted to bring it here for you, but am having trouble finding it, let's start with these questions for today, can you begin here until Pat can get them up, and see what you'd like to say on them, so MUCH in this little Part IV, Ella did a great job in dividing them out…more when I find that sentence.
ginny
Malryn (Mal)
November 18, 2003 - 07:55 am
Source:
American Theosophical Society
Principles of Theosophy
reincarnation,
karma (or moral justice),
the existence of worlds of experience beyond the physical,
the presence of life and consciousness in all matter,
the evolution of spirit and intelligence as well as of physical matter,
the possibility of our conscious participation in evolution,
the power of thought to affect one's self and surroundings,
the reality of free will and self-responsibility,
the duty of altruism, a concern for the welfare of others, and
the ultimate perfection of human nature, society, and life.
My daughter and her first husband flirted with Theosophy for a while.
In fact, one of the centers for the American Theosophical Society is located not far from the village in upstate New York where they lived at that time. My computer dictionary says that Theosophy as practiced by members of the American Theosophical Society incorporated aspects of Buddhism and Brahmanism. The biggest problem my daughter had with this was that complete strangers who claimed to be Theosophists would knock at their door at any hour of the day or night and expect to be given food and shelter.
Because of this there was an encounter with a man who "earned his living" this way. He expected to be taken in and thus supported for months at a time.
Theosophy speaks of the "Universal One". Unitaranism also speaks of this oneness. Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau were both Unitarians. Emerson was one of the founders of Transcendentalism, which is a philosophy which contains some aspects of Hinduism. Having grown up not too far from the center of Transcendentalism, Concord, Massachusetts, I have been interested in it since I was very young. I also belonged to the Universalist-Unitarian Church. The Unitarians and Universalists merged in 1961. Ralph Waldo Emerson was a Unitarian minister in Concord.
I found an article today which said Gandhi first read Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience" when he was in England. Later he read Walden when he was in prison. He was impressed by Thoreau, apparently. It was Emerson who introduced Thoreau to Oriental religions and Hinduism. In fact, it's possible to find Emerson's statements and thoughts in much of what Thoreau wrote. I remember always that it was Emerson who allowed Thoreau to build his cabin on property he owned by Walden Pond.
It has been only the past few years in which I've realized that the religion in which I was raised was so influenced by Oriental religions as well as Christianity. Perhaps for that reason, there is much in what Gandhi says about religion and religions with which I am able to identify.
Mal
Ann Alden
November 18, 2003 - 08:23 am
Here's an Anglo-Boer War Museum site which is quite complete. Much to learn here.First sentence makes me want to read and experience the whole site.
One of the most significant events in the history of South Africa was the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902.
Although the protagonists were Britain and the two Boer Republics, the population of South Africa as a whole became embroiled in the war either directly or indirectly.
The Anglo-Boer War Museum
I am trying to read everything here as its just fascinating but I do have company for the week so won't be posting much.
Lou2
November 18, 2003 - 10:50 am
Chapter VII: "A writer almost always presents one aspect of a case, whereas every case can be seen from no less than seven points of view, all of which are probably correct by themselves, but not correct at the same time and in the same circumstances."
What ARE these seven points of view?
Well, I think I've found the Jainism answer... but I'll leave it to you all to read this and see if you can figure it out!!!
Jainism and Karnataka
Dr. T. G. Kalghatgi
http://www.geocities.com/tamiljain/bahubali/pages/essays/karnatak1.htm I tried to figure this out... Maybe in my next life time!! Be interested to know what you make of it!!
Lou
Malryn (Mal)
November 18, 2003 - 01:19 pm
So that's where Gandhi got it! Thanks, LOU. I'd forgotten about that and was thinking how clever Gandhi was as a lawyer to figure out a way to turn the other cheek and maintain a non-violent stance without ever getting angry or upset.
"Remove all the karma, and the self achieves perfection." Wouldn't that be exasperating when you're working up to a good argument! There's no way you can touch a person who acts like this.
Just think, never get kicked out of a discussion; never lose the first or last word because there aren't any. Put 7 pairs of shoes on simultaneously.
Gandhi's genius was the fact that he read, understood what he read, and he learned and acted on what he learned. It was all written before, and he amalgamated it and skimmed off the cream.
Mal
Ella Gibbons
November 18, 2003 - 03:13 pm
JINNAH!
Gandhi speaks of him in our next section, but I can understand, Ginny, why no one cared for him; in the movie he seemed quite severe and not at all friendly to Gandhi who, at one time, wanted to make him President of the Independent country thinking that might prevent a separation of the Hindus and Moslems. He was talked out of that quickly, but that was all in the movie. We’ll discuss him more next week.
ARE YOU SAYING GANDHI WAS FOR PARTITIONING? That’s contrary to what I got from the book or the movie – or perhaps you mean, Ginny, that JINNAH was in haste to partition?
Click here for a story about the day General Dyers gunned down all those Indians who were in the throes of Gandhi’s non-resistance policies: India’s day of infamy - my title! Here’s a quote from that story:
”"Later, descendants of General Dyer came here. They actually knelt before the people and asked for forgiveness, shedding tears of repentance. Their photographs and letters are preserved here to this day. We put them up on display often. The eternal flame, the Flame of Liberty, burns there today, a befitting memorial to perpetuate the memory of the martyrs. Jallianwalabagh has been accorded the status of a national pilgrimage”
REINCARNATION!
Thank you, MALRYN, for giving us those principles of Theosophy! I can’t get past the very first one! What do you think?
My dictionary gives this definition of theosophy: “Religious speculation dealing with the mystical apprehension of God, association with various occult systems. The doctrines and beliefs of a modern religious sect, the Theosophical Society, incorporating aspects of Buddhism and Brahmanism.”
We had a niece who after marriage moved to Florida and she and her husband associated with some sort of occult and the whole family, including her parents, were astounded at some of the stuff she and her husband did, so that very word “occult” would frighten some folk.
That was so interesting, ANN, thanks for that site, I’ve heard of the Boer Wars occasionally through literature of one kind or another or you hear of those Dutch Afrikaners – do you know what the situation is today with regard to them?
OH, LOU!!! THAT’S NOT FOR ME! I can’t even pronounce any of the words, can you? Hahahaha
MAL has made some sense of it – thanks, MALRYN!!!
Before we leave the subject of educating children, or I should say Gandhi’s method of educating children, I want to quote this paragraph and ask what you think of it:
”Children take in much more and with less labour through their ears than through their eyes. I do not remember having read any book from cover to cover with my boys. But I gave them, in my own language, all that I had digested from my reading of various books, and I dare say they are still carrying a recollection of it in their minds. It was laborious for them to remember what they learnt from books, but what I imparted to them by word of mouth, they could repeat with the greatest ease. Reading was a task for them, but listening to me was a pleasure, when I did not bore them by failure to make my subject interesting….”
Until you stop to think about his method, it doesn’t sound too bad! But what happens when the children want to learn something new or something Gandhi doesn’t know – where do they get new information – THEY CAN’T READ!
Strange that one that valued education would even put that into print!!!
THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION, WE VALUE EVERY POST AND LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR THOUGHTS.
Later, ………
Lou2
November 18, 2003 - 03:27 pm
The Seven Points of View aren't the only thing I'm having trouble with... chapter 39... XXXIX, (hope I'm right, 39??? LOL)... We're talking about the war here... Gandhi thinks it OK to participate...
I make no distinction, from the point of view of Ahimsa, between combatants and non-combatants.
So that's not how he felt he could participate... In the paragrahs before that sentence he describes his philosophy... Can someone help me figure how what he means???
When two nations are fighting, the duty of a votary of ahimsa is to stop the war. He who is not equal to that duty, he who has no power of resisting war, he who is not qualified to resist war, may take part in war, and yet whole-heartedly try to free himself, his nation and the world from war.
Am I being dense here??? How can you take part in a war and yet try to free yourself, etc. from it??? If he's not talking about non-combatants????
... one of three courses was open to me: I could declare open resistance to the war... or I could seek imprisonment by civil disobedience of such of its laws as were fit to be disobeyed; or I could participate in the war on the side of the EMpire and thereby acquire the capacity and fitness for resisting the violence of war.
I lacked this capacity and fitness, so I thought there was nothing for it but to serve in the war.
I could participate... thereby acquire the capacity and fitness for resisting????? I can not, just can not follow his logic here???? Help!!!
Lou
anneofavonlea
November 18, 2003 - 03:42 pm
If your country is at war as a citizen, one has a duty. To fight against this duty would take great strenth of character. in this instance, do your duty, and from within the conflict draw the strength needed to fight against it .
Surely there are soldiers at war, who have no heart for same, but through duty are sent. These can become the greatest defenders of peace.
simplistically, if you cant beat them join them. Not saying I approve of this as a philosophy, but sure examples of same can be found.
Anneo
JoanK
November 18, 2003 - 07:27 pm
LOU: I was confused about that too. But his participation consisted in forming an ambulence corps, and nursing the wounded. Perhaps that is what he meant.
JoanK
November 18, 2003 - 07:32 pm
MAL: I like your discription of Gandhi as amalgamating what he read and skimming off the cream. I agree, but with his own personality built in.
I tried wearing 7 pairs of shoes. Unfortunately, I don't own 7 pairs of shoes. Emalda Marcos, where are you when we need you? (reincarnated as a centipede?).
Persian
November 18, 2003 - 10:48 pm
This is a particularly timely topic in our family, since according to my son, David, (who remains on duty in Iraq and as of today is responsible for his own safety, since his Assistant has just been evacuated to Walt Reed Army Hospital in Washington DC for treatment of Leishmaniasis), there are certainly soldiers in theatre who do not "support the war," but are there because they are in the Army and that's their duty.
And there are others who simply cannot tolerate the violence and have removed themselves either by not controling their emotions (and thus becoming too ill to remain in country) or being labeled a coward because they panic or freeze or in several unfortunate cases, commit suicide.
Then there are the individuals who are in support positions and never expect to be embroiled in combat, but find themselves caught up in the thick of it. And, of course, the Chaplains, who are in the midst of battle quite often, but who are NOT "combatants" (not allowed to carry weapons according to the Geneva Convention) and do not "fight." Which is not to say that if their lives are threatened directly, and there is no one else around to protect them, they would not just stand there and allow themselves to be killed or wounded.
Or in another combat zone - Israel - the young Army soldiers and Officers who have defied their orders and refuse to patrol in the Palestinian areas because there has been so much "wanton wounding and killing of innocent Palestinian civilians." And just like the Americans, there are other soldiers who "do their duty," follow their orders and have nightmares which will stay with them forever.
Are our young men and women of today so different from those in the 20th century with whom Gandhi interacted? I don't think so.
Malryn (Mal)
November 19, 2003 - 08:22 am
JOANK, to play the Gandhi point of view game, you don't need to own any shoes; just stand in the shoes of 7 other people in order to know and understand their points of view. Like walk a mile in my moccasins, and I'll show you a thing or two. It seems to me that Gandhi continually did this, except with his wife and children.
MAHLIA, you have reason to be worried about your chaplain son. I wish him well.
Mal
kiwi lady
November 19, 2003 - 09:51 am
Mal - Thats a very telling statement "except for this wife and children". I think I posted earlier in this discussion about my friend whose dad was a Missionary in Africa. My friend felt he and his siblings always came last after his fathers parishioners in the many churches he established in Africa.
Carolyn
MountainRose
November 19, 2003 - 12:24 pm
. . .by my fireside. It's a psychological assessment of Gandhi. In the middle of the book Erikson writes a letter to Gandhi, where he takes Gandhi's quotes and psychoanalizes them, especially with regard to Kasturbai and his sons, and I think Erikson tells it like it is---that Gandhi was often very insensitive to his own family, and often gave them no real choices and then justified that in his own mind.
As for fighting in a war while still following the path of ahimsa, it was Gandhi's philosophy that in order to make a true choice about ahimsa, one had to to know what war and fighting were all about, and that otherwise it was not a true choice. He feared that too many people would chose ahimsa just because of cowardice, and he wanted it to be a real choice made from a position of strength. That's why he never minded giving service as an ambulance person in the very thick of things, so that those who served with him could truly decide if ahimsa was their path for the right reasons. It's easy to proclaim ahimsa when one is really a coward; it's another thing to proclaim it when you have been in the thick of things and have seen what happens and have shown courage, because ultimately in a confrontation ahimsa takes more courage than to kill, as was seen during the Salt Satyagraha when row after row of unarmed people were gunned down when the very absence of violence made the police particularly vicious.
MountainRose
November 19, 2003 - 12:30 pm
clearly that people needed to make a choice for the right reasons in everyone but his own family. But I think that's also often true of a very strong paternal figure within a family because they look at the family as an extension of themselves, like a right arm, and if he commands the arm to do something, then it has to do what he commands. In a family there is often a blurring of boundaries, and the stronger the head family member is, the more the boundaries tend to get blurred, unless everyone is aware of what is happening. In those days psychoanalysis was just being born, so that blurring was not obvious to anyone. Freud and Gandhi were contemporaries.
JoanK
November 19, 2003 - 02:41 pm
Excellant comments on war. The Gita starts with a young man who does not want to fight a war, and is told to do so by Krishna (god). So Gandhi's position is in the Hindu tradition. It still surprises me. The commentator I'm reading (Easwaran) says that Gandhi interpreted the war in the Gita to be the internal war between good and evil in oneself. It's not that simple.
Malryn (Mal)
November 19, 2003 - 03:48 pm
There were so many influences on Gandhi from what he read that I think it's difficult to pinpoint only one as the reason why he thought as he did. Not only was he influenced by the Gita and certain Vedas, he was influenced by the New Testament of the Bible, Theosophy, Transcendentalism, Muslim teachings, Ancient Indian traditions, and in fact, everything he read, saw and did. What interests me most are his conclusions.
It seems to me that Gandhi did not act too differently from men (and women) throughout history who have been so wrapped up in their own particular causes that they had no time for family. He admits that he did not have time to teach what was "literary" to young people he gathered around him and his own children, not to mention his wife. I've maintained for a long time that people like this should never marry. Gandhi didn't have that choice.
I've also maintained that long before Psychology and psychoanalytic methods came along, human beings analyzed their own behavior and that of others and came up with answers that were often correct. They still do.
Mal
MountainRose
November 19, 2003 - 05:44 pm
before ahimsa, that even Gandhi admits to in his own writings, is that he felt it would be totally embarrassing to India to have a demonstration of passive resistance and for the people to panic and run when the shooting began. To his mind India had already been boxed into being labeled as a third-rate country with a third-rate people by Europeans, and if the people panicked they would be regarded as even weaker. I think he was right. His struggle was one of the first where the world news participated regularly, where events were filmed, and he felt that Indian men and women had to conduct themselves with honor and courage to prove to the world that they could look anyone in the eye. In order to do that they also had to have a true picture of what their risks were.
He always hoped that the British would be honorable in the face-offs, but after Amritsar he knew the risks better than anyone.
Ginny
November 20, 2003 - 06:16 am
Whoo, lots of super points made here, thank you all VERY much, so much to digest. Our Ella is out sick and I unfortunately am off for today but will try to address as many of your wonderful points as I can this morning with more later on, but on the subject of education, I am not sure I am reading the same book? Hahahaah we all disagree on this one apparently, and HERE is where we REALLY REALLY need some of the other commentary on Gandhi? Does anybody have the Brown or Wolpert books and can look up the "Education Issue?"
Of course to our modern eyes, we are shocked at what he's saying but I myself think he's tarring himself with the same self flagellation that he does everything else. If you look closely at what he's saying he's also saying this: (from Chapter XXXIII of Part IV)
We gave three periods at the most to literary training. Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati and Urdu were all taught , and tuition was given through the vernaculars of the boys. English was taught as well. It was also necessary to acquaint the Gujarati Hindu children with a little Sanskrit, and to teach all the children elementary history, geography and arithmetic.
OK, this is after lunch because they work until lunch. I don't know the last time you have spent all day in an American classroom, but there is no public school in America which devotes 3 periods per day all day to literature? None. You are lucky you get ONE period per day in reading. And in what language? Do our American children take Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic Greek so they can read the scriptures? LOOK at the languages he's teaching them in? What does Gujarati look like? Can you see the writing in the heading above? India has 1,800 dialects.
I don't think he's saying they can't READ, and when he says they find texts difficult, I guess so, so would YOU if you were in that situation??
Has it occurred to anybody that his method of them listening to him is exactly the Greek model? It worked for Socrates, it may well BE this is a chink in his armor? It may well BE also that he's excoriating himself unnecessarily here, and it may well BE that, with 40 million children now out of school in 2003 India, that he did more than is being done today, at least he tried, let's see what some other historians and commentators have to say, perhaps they can shed some light on his very harsh appraisal of himself here, in context with the reality of what is India, it sounds like they are not totally ignorant, tho again they did not receive the education he did, but since his father educated HIM to be a ruler, perhaps he wanted, again, more for his own children and those in his care whom he treated as his own, I'm not sure, I need to read more.
more…
Ginny
November 20, 2003 - 07:13 am
Malryn thank you for those Principles of Theosophy, it's amazing how often that comes up and it appears, that it's how you look at IT also!
I do see they share some of the same things: Karma, That was interesting on your daughter and those who would knock at the door, that follows the Buddhist training, fascinating.
Ann thank you so much on the Boer War site, that thing is incredibly complex (as is this whole subject, Dr. Jones said in our next to last class that once you get hooked you have to keep going deeper and deeper!) Also yesterday over lunch my friend told me it WAS Shaka Zulu and the Zulu uprising, so again all these things which have swum around in our murky subconscious are suddenly falling into place like the pieces of a puzzle. I'd really like to see that set of films again, (Shaika Zulu)
Enjoy your company, Ann, (and tell her to come in, too!!)
Whoooo LOU on the 7 Points of View in Jainism, you smart thing!!!! THANK you, again we see Jainism influencing Gandhi but we need not be surprised, he said at the outset he was influenced by that, as well. And there if you go to the link you see the Tirthankaras again which I mentioned earlier in the post on Indian religion. That is over my head, way over! Hahahahaa Thank you for bringing that here!!!
Malryn you are absolutely correct, when you say "There's no way you can touch a person who acts like this." Over and over in my classes from every professor came the same phrase, that Gandhi had a "weapon" the British could not fight.
Ella, thank you for the remarks on Jinnah, what I meant was not that people did not like him personally but that historians feel he was self motivated at the expense of literally millions of people who then died as a result of his own selfish need to be top man.
No I did not say Gandhi was for partitioning.
The Dyer incident is incomprehensible to me, his photo is in Freedom at Midnight, but that's the only place I have seen it, and he looks a perfectly rational civil man, even handsome. Thank you for putting in his heirs and their attempts at penance. Unfortunately he was honored by the British authorities upon his return to England, we will learn more about that in Tom's book,
Anneo I loved your take on Lou's question and will rephrase Lou's question here: When two nations are fighting, the duty of a votary of ahimsa is to stop the war. He who is not equal to that duty, he who has no power of resisting war, he who is not qualified to resist war, may take part in war, and yet whole-heartedly try to free himself, his nation and the world from war.
Lou2 "Am I being dense here??? How can you take part in a war and yet try to free yourself, etc. from it??? If he's not talking about non-combatants????">
... one of three courses was open to me: I could declare open resistance to the war... or I could seek imprisonment by civil disobedience of such of its laws as were fit to be disobeyed; or I could participate in the war on the side of the EMpire and thereby acquire the capacity and fitness for resisting the violence of war.
I lacked this capacity and fitness, so I thought there was nothing for it but to serve in the war.
My own perhaps shallow take is that the DUTY of a person who espouses ahimsa is to lay down in front of the tanks, be beaten, spit at and carried off to prison in order to stop the war. If you are not strong enough for that, (and it would take incredible strength) then you can take part in a non combatant role (nursing aid to both sides) but do your best in that role to show both sides they are wrong. Therefore Gandhi, citing his own weakness at this point, chose the role of nurse, that's how I read it.
I liked Anneo's explanation better!
I think Joan is on to what he meant, also.
Joan, hahahah, I own 7 pairs of shoes but can't get in but 2, I really need to take the others to the Salvation Army, my feet seem to be taking on a life of their own (in addition they say your EARS GROW as you age@@) sheesh.<br.
Mahlia, I know you are concerned for your son!
Thank you for that insight into the life of the soldier, what branch of the service is your son in? I think I will cheerfully and respectfully disagree with this statement, "It seems to me that Gandhi continually did this, except with his wife and children."
I think he treated his wife as himself and they, following the marriage vows Lou set out, came to regard themselves as a team, and I think his children with the exception of the oldest, did too, but again we need outside sources here, have any of you read HER book?
Carolyn, Pearl Buck and many others have written of their own missionary Fathers and in their zeal, the "cobblers children went barefoot," I am not sure that's what's happening here, but it has happened many the time in the past, that's for sure.
Rose, thank you for the Erikson views on Gandhi!! I love other sources brought in, because really we only have his own voice here to deal with and the picture is not complete. Erkison apparently was not an acquaintance of Gandhi nor of the area? Post psychology is quite interesting, they even now can figure out you by the way your feet point in photos of you and another, thank you for those very interesting comments.
Joan, thank you for reminding us of the subject of the Gita, war, now you say "The commentator I'm reading (Easwaran) says that Gandhi interpreted the war in the Gita to be the internal war between good and evil in oneself. It's not that simple. "
What a good discussions point, I believe at this point I want to say Isn't it?
What do you all think? Love it, thank you Rose.
What if, for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate, I said it is?
What IF everything in life IS just that?
The bottom picture of Gandhi, by the way, is his march to the sea, the famous Salt March. I hope we will learn more about THIS effort in Tom's discussion (will that come up, Tom?) but again it was another step for the Indian in self respect and throwing off the yoke of the British and taxes.
Yes, I agree, Rose, after Amritsar he knew the risks.
<br.
Let's talk about non violence or ahisma and why people would be moved by the fasting of another? From Chapter XXVI: That connection? Gandhi says, In Gujarati also we used the English phrase "passive resistance" to describe it. When in a meeting of 'Europeans I found that the term "passive resistance" was too narrowly construed, that is was supposed to be a weapon of the weak, that it could be characterized by hatred, and that it would finally manifest itself as violence, I had to demur to all these statements and explain the real nature of the Indian movement. It was clear that a new word must be coined by the Indians to designate their struggle.
But I could not for the life of me find out a new name, and therefore offered a nominal prize through ,Indian Opinion to the reader who made the best suggestion on the subject. As a result Maganila Gandhi coined the word "Sadgagraha" (Sat=truth, Agraha=firmness) and won the prize. But in order to make it clear I changed the word to "Satyagraha" which has since become current in Gujarati and as a designation for the struggle.
I did not know that title was the result of a contest!! Did you?
And again later on Gandhi says in Chapter XXXVI: I felt the only way the guilty parties could be made to realize my distress and the depth of their down fall would be for me to do some penance. So I imposed upon myself a fast for seven days…"
Ok here we see two instances of passive resistance, the fast and the non violent stance.
In each Gandhi is appealing to the conscience of those who do wrong or who oppress.
My question is how did this one man, starving himself or deciding on passive resistance, manage to move millions of people and bring an end to the mightiest Empire on earth at the time? Which he did?
Was there anything MORE in what he did or the way he went about it? When the young men stood up in front of the tanks in Tiennamen (sp) Square, what was the result? What other instances of this policy have we seen in world history and when did it work and why and when did it not, and more importantly WHY did it work for Gandhi if it did?
That's the question today!
Penny for your thoughts on why one man starving himself moved a nation?
ginny
Malryn (Mal)
November 20, 2003 - 08:22 am
Gandhi was a teacher in everything he did. His aim, I believe, was to teach Self Reliance. This hits home with me because I have been a fan of Ralph Waldo Emerson for a long time, and he preached and taught Self Reliance. As mentor for Henry David Thoreau, he taught Self Reliance to him, too.
Gandhi's teaching of literature could have happened several different ways. He could have taught it to the boys when they were out cutting down trees or planting, for example, or anything else they did.
I have no way of knowing how long a "period" was in Gandhi's school, or whether the boys were taught as JOANK and I, in a way, were taught with books put in front of us along with the statement, "You want to learn something? Here are the books, so learn."
Gandhi taught by example more than any other way, I think. He travelled third class when he didn't have to for several reasons. One reason was that he wanted to show that he was one with people considered as "lesser". He stripped his and his family's life of material possessions and lived the way a poor person would, not only as a way to rid himself from "Self", but to show people it was possible to live a rich, full life without money or the material things Europeans and some Indians thought were absolutely necessary for fulfillment.
Gandhi lived what he believed.
I have realized that my upbringing was such that I learned Self Reliance at a fairly early age, having been left on my own and to my own devices from the age of 11. Because of the huge amount of travelling my husband did for his work, I was alone and responsible for my children more often than not as an adult, and further alone after the end of my marriage. More Self Reliance.
Now I am alone 23 hours a day, dependent on myself alone to make these last years of my life interesting and productive. Circumstance has made me know how little one needs really to get along. You speak of shoes. I haven't bought a pair of shoes for nearly ten years.
I think that even when a person and his or her principles have been proven right, it is sometimes difficult for others, especially family members, to accept those same principles. I'd have to think a long time before I'd try to put my principles on my kids, since they are directly opposed to what most Americans think is important, just as Gandhi's principles were opposite to what Westerners thought were necessary and right.
How did Gandhi move millions of people? By never wavering from his principles, by defending the rights of those people, not by fighting, but by making himself an example of protest through his fasts. How did these people look at him? As an educated person, a lawyer, who knew and showed that he was one with them, and was a person who would fight non-violently to death for their rights if he had to.
Gandhi believed in the oneness of all people, in the brotherhood of humankind. The Universalist-Unitarian denomination to which I belonged has no creed except this: It believes in the brotherhood of humankind. It is what I've believed since I was a child, and it is what made helping alcoholics, drug addicts, ex-criminals, sick and disabled people, the underprivileged, the poor and the elderly, an important part of my life, this oneness Gandhi saw and knew.
Jesus Christ had the same realization, and there have been numerous others. Gandhi respected Jesus Christ, but could not accept the idea that Christ was divine. By rejecting what he called the passions, Gandhi became more than human, but he never regarded himself as divine. It is for this reason that I myself could never call him a saint. In my mind, Gandhi was the most human of humans.
Mal
Hallie Mae
November 20, 2003 - 09:17 am
I recently came across this quote of Gandhi's that I had saved a long time ago - I thought it might be of interest.
"Whatever they do to us, we will attack no one, kill no one," he said.
"In this cause I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill."
Hallie Mae
TigerTom
November 20, 2003 - 09:31 am
Ginny,
India has 1800 Dialects of HINDI, it has any number
of other lanaguages. Each Dialect can be different from
one village to another and one dialect in one village
may not be understood by the people in the next Village
but could be understood by villagers living a hundred
miles away. Often the Dialects will seem to be a different
language but they are all a form of Hindi.
I am not sure at the moment if the Salt March is mentioned
in Freedom at Midnight. That book is about the last few
months of British Rule and the rush by the British to leave
India to the Indians.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
November 20, 2003 - 10:55 am
Here is an excerpt I found while attempting to contact Gandhi's grandson who runs the MLK Gandhi Institute for Non Violence, it's part of a longer personal first hand account of his life on the ashram with Gandhi found here: Community of the Future
Community of the Future
By Arun Gandhi
As a budding teenager in the 1940s I was intrigued by grandfather’s version of "family," not at all like a conventional family that I was accustomed to.
Grandfather was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and his "family" was the human race.
In 1946 my father, Manilal, Gandhi’s second son, decided it was time to visit the family in India. I was 12 years old then and all of us needed relief from the hate, prejudice and humiliation of apartheid in South Africa. While I had visited India earlier this was the first time I would be old enough to experience the difference between a conventional "family" and a "Gandhi family" living in an ashram in India.
In 1946 there were close to 150 families living in Sevagram Ashram in Wardha, Central India. Although they retained their family names in all other respects they were part of one ashram family.
This was, in a microcosm, Gandhi’s vision of a future human family. Inclusiveness, he was certain, was the only way humanity could be saved from self-destruction. Humanity must breakdown barriers and build bridges to create peace and harmony in this world. A community, he said, is only as strong as the family. If there is love and harmony in a family there will be love and harmony in a community. What happens to one must happen to all.
Love and harmony in a family can only be achieved through strong bonds of relationship built on respect, understanding, acceptance and appreciation. Respect leads to understanding who we are; followed by acceptance and appreciation of our differences.
Teaching tolerance was anathema to Gandhi. People, he felt, should not tolerate each other and their differences, but learn to respect, understand, accept and appreciate each other. Only through a strong and respectful relationship can we have peace and harmony within ourselves and in our society.
Rugged individualism, selfishness, self-centeredness, greed, anger, materialism etc. that dominate our lives today do not contribute to building a community of peace and harmony. What we have today is anything but a community. It is more of a neighborhood or a collection of people living in an area because it is convenient and/or because circumstances have thrown us together. Unless there is "something in it for me," we prefer not to have anything to do with our neighbors.
One day Gandhi’s wife, Kasturba, was seen in the ashram kitchen cooking. This was unusual and so Gandhi stopped to inquire. "What are you cooking?" he asked.
"Ramdas," she explained referring to their married son, "is going home to his family this afternoon and I thought I would make some sweets that his children like so much."
"Do you make sweets for the children of all those who visit the ashram and then leave?" Gandhi asked.
Surprised and bewildered by the question Kasturba turned to face Gandhi and said: "No, of course, not."
"Why not?" Gandhi asked. "Are they not, like Ramdas, also your children? Should we not learn to treat everyone equally?"
Kasturba thought she knew what Gandhi was leading to by creating the ashram but this was a dimension she had not considered. She quickly saw the wisdom in what he said and decided to make amends by not giving Ramdas the sweets but making more of them and distributing them to all the children in the ashram.
There must never be, Gandhi said, any double standards in our relationships and our attitude towards each other, our families and humanity in general. What applies to one, must apply to all, he said. For most people this may be totally unacceptable. Perhaps, too high a standard to attain. But Gandhi believed this was the only way to understand and respect each other.
I personally experienced Gandhi’s determination to treat everyone equally while I was with him in 1947. To raise funds for the many programs that he had launched -- to emancipate women and the "low caste" and educate children -- he decided to sell his autographs for five rupees which, in terms of monetary value, was almost the equivalent of $5.
Every morning and evening hundreds would attend his multi-faith prayers and later seek his autograph. I was assigned the task of collecting and bringing to grandfather the autograph books and money for his signature. If so many people were willing to pay so much money for his autograph it must be valuable, I realized, so one day I made myself an autograph book and put it in the pile that I took to him for his signature.
"Why is there no money for this autograph," he asked.
"Because it is my book," I said sheepishly.
"Ah ha! So you think you are going to get a free autograph?" he laughed.
"Yes," I said. "After all I am your grandson."
"So are all the people out there," he said. "They are all related to me. If I have a rule for them that rule must apply to you also."
"In fact," he continued, "For you the rule will be more stringent. You will not only have to pay me for the autograph but you will have to earn the money yourself. Don’t ask your parents for the money."
It was clear that Gandhi would not make an exception for his grandson. I pursued him adamantly, disturbing him during important meetings hoping he would relent and sign my book just to get rid of me, but he wouldn’t. He not only did not give me the autograph but he never got angry with me.....
You may want to read the entire article, from the horse's mouth so to speak?
Also quite a bit in this one about latrine duty and what it really signified, here's another small excerpt:
Then he sought an excuse. "I hold a doctorate from the London School of Economics," he argued. "I am capable of doing great things. Why do you waste my time and talents on cleaning toilets?"
Gandhi replied: "I know of your capacity to do great things but I have yet to discover your capacity to do little things. So, if you wish to seek my guidance and blessings you will have to observe all the rules of the ashram."
more....
Ginny
November 20, 2003 - 11:12 am
Good heavens, thank you TOM, I had no idea of the numbers, incredible, 1,800 dialects of Hindi alone! Amazing, it's a wonder they can speak to each other at all, I do remember now one of the professors said every state has its own language, thank you!
I can't remember, either about Freedom, and my book (I gave my own copy to another and my new copy STILL has not come!) is not here yet, but if necessary I will get it from the library.
Malryn, good points on the Emerson and Thoreau influences, have you read the Ruskin? (I have not).
One thing Gandhi did that we may be missing is his expert and calaulated methods of getting out the word. We forget he edited, and owned a newspaper, Indian Opinion . We forget that at that time the Indian was considered lower than dirt, in fact in my class one of the professors was shocked to meet in India a few years ago a young man who said," my goal in life is to be seen as a man." He wasn't talking about He Men. The professor said, "Imagine, imagine. " We here, raised in the prosperity of America and Canada, can hardly understand what that means, and what Gandhi faced in his own time The March to the Sea (the Salt March) was timed 10, was it miles a day so that the news would spread, the people would know, and the press would report it, and they did. He was very media savvy, and it was urgent he should get the word out.
Hallie Mae, thank you for that excellent quote, again showing the depth of character of this man, the MLK Gandhi site calls him an Idealist, can you have a secular idealist or not do you think?
Having just toured the Holocaust Museum in Washington, I marvel at what he was able to accomplish, by appealing to the conscience of those who seemed to either have none or whose was submerged under ignorance.
ginny
MountainRose
November 20, 2003 - 12:28 pm
admired Gandhi, and went to India after Gandhi's death. He not only used Gandhi's writings, but interviewed many of those who knew Gandhi in order to come to his conclusions about the man.
What I found interesting is that those who were Gandhi's disciples could not see him in the same way as those on the periphery who sometimes differed with Gandhi. In fact, Erickson says that to his disciples Gandhi was perfection, and even though he interviewed them, he used very little of what they said about him in his book. Instead, he used what those on the periphery said about him, because he felt it was a more honest picture of the man, especially since those people respected him even though they may have disagreed with him.
The conclusion he ultimately came to was that Gandhi was bisexual. NOT in the sense that we use the word or the connotation it has to us, but bisexual in the sense that he was a COMPLETE HUMAN BEING, with both the leadership, determination and will of the male side, and the motherly, gentle, yielding female side.
I am now also reading "The Essential Gandhi" by Louis Fischer, and I'm amazed at Gandhi's writing. The passion that one sees in his editorial columns does not come across in his autobiography. In fact, his autobiography seems a bit dry to me. Not that I fault him for that. It's very difficult for a humble soul to write about himself, and the need to stay neutral eliminates much of the passion. But I can understand why this book is called "The Essential Gandhi", because when one reads his writing, not about himself, but about what he believed, the passion comes through loud and clear. I would think in order to "know" who Gandhi was, one would have to read his writings other than the autobiography.
Regarding his fasting, here is an example of a statement he made in "Young India":
"Fasting cannot be undertaken against an opponent. Fasting can be resorted to only against one's nearest and dearest, and that solely for his or her good."
and . . . "Fasting can be resorted to only against a lover, not to extort rights but to reform him, as when a son fasts for a father who drinks. I fasted to reform those who loved me. But I did not fast to reform General Dyer, who not only does not love me but who regards himself as my enemy."
In Erickson's book there is a an example of what a follower of Gandhi's had to write as recently as 1967, to explain fasting as Gandhi had meant it to be. He says:
"Fasting cannot be resorted to against those who regard us as their enemy, or on whose love we have not established a claim by dint of selfless service; it cannot be resorted to by a person who has not identified himself with, or worked for the cause he is fasting for; it cannot be used for gaining a material selfish end, or to change the honestly held opinion of another or in support of an issue that is not clear, feasible and demonstratively just. To be legitimate, a fast should be capable of response."
That once again makes it clear to me that fasting is useless in fighting those who hate and have no regard for human lives, such as dictatorships who seek only power. It was even useless against the English, by that definition; and used only to keep those he loved on the proper course. But because the world had also learned to love him and his ideals, it worked in the world too, to put pressure on the English, which ultimately also helped in their leaving India. The fact that so many people loved him enough to care whether he lived or died, tells how hard he worked on their behalf.
MountainRose
November 20, 2003 - 12:35 pm
. . . the candy, I also think it's impractical. We cannot "make candy" for the whole world, nor do I think we should. If we take care of our own families, but teach them to share, it's like a ripple effect. I remember when I was raising a family that sometimes I barely had enough money for a spool of thread to mend something, and to think about mending the rest of the world would have seemed an impossibility to me, and very discouraging if it had been expected. So we shared where we could, but my family always came first. Of course, we didn't live in an ashram either. In that atmosphere it would seem proper to treat ALL the children the same. So it all depends on the situation.
I loved the story about the autograph, and I do agree with Gandhi in that instance, although I probably wouldn't have done the same thing, depending on how clever my grandson was in convincing me.
MountainRose
November 20, 2003 - 12:49 pm
until communication became worldwide, as it has only fairly recently, people all over the world had dialects even within one country, and people from one area of the country could not understand people in other parts of the country. I recall that in Germany, where I lived during and right after WWII, there were many dialects, and when my family ended up (from Berlin) in the area where Stuttgart is, my parents understood almost nothing, let alone trying to understand a Bavarian peasant in the Munich area. When my mother and grandmother spoke their East Prussian dialect, no one else in the family understood them, and when my father and his sister spoke in the Berlin dialect (which I did understand) it was hilarious because Berliners are very "cheeky". I recall my grandmother singing songs in her East Prussian dialect while she did housework, and needing the words to be translated.
The difference between Germany and India, was the population was not as large and the educational system had always taught everyone in "high German". So people spoke their peculiar dialect, but read the newspaper in "high German". With communication the way it is today, I'm sure everyone understands everyone else, but it was not always so.
I also recall people who lived in small farming villages who had never left their own village, not even to go across the hill to the next village because there was nothing there that they didn't have where they already were. My family, having been from Berlin, was more "worldly" in that sense, and we often took the train to the nearest city to see what was new, or to see a play or hear a symphony or visit a restaurant; and we also visited family in other parts of Germany. But not many people did in those days.
JoanK
November 20, 2003 - 02:20 pm
"I felt the only way the guilty parties could be made to realize my distress and the depth of their down fall would be for me to do some penance. So I imposed upon myself a fast for seven days…"
I remember in the movie Gandhi, he explains to the young minister that when peoplesee that you will quietly persist withouy violence or hatred, something happens in their hearts. So, also with fasting.
The first time I heard of such a fast was not with Gandhi, but with the Hispanic labor leader, Cesar Chaves. Reading his biography, I read that at a time when his followers were fighting, he decided that it was his fault, and he must do penance. Something in me said YES that is right! I truly felt that oneness of humanity that Gandhi talks about: his follower's pain was his pain, and mine.
Malryn (Mal)
November 20, 2003 - 02:37 pm
Essays by John RuskinGINNY, I tried to read the Ruskin, but found it rather tough going. I did find something about Ruskin's idea that a soldier's job was "not to slay but to be slain", which struck me in the context of the discussion of Ancient Romans we're having in
The Story of Civilization discussion.
In the 60's psychology and analysis became very popular among college educated people and others here in the U.S. Erik Erikson's books and ideas were popular with my peer group at that time. Erikson was born in 1902 in Germany. His Danish father left early in Erikson's life apparently, and he was raised by a Jewish stepfather. He was rejected by Jewish neighbors because of his Nordic appearance, and rejected at school because he was Jewish. His own identity crises are said to have led to his research and work about identity crises. He came to the States in 1933 after meeting Anna Freud in the late 1920's. That's an interesting hypothesis (bisexual) about Gandhi. I think Gandhi was complete in himself and his own beliefs.
GINNY, you ask an interesting question about whether we can have a secular idealist. My answer is: Why not? I remember that there was discussion about whether Stevens was an idealist in the
Remains of the Day discussion.
I think Gandhi was an idealist. The fact that he could influence so many people is remarkable. He hit a chord with them. They didn't like being third class citizens or being dominated by "superior" whites, and why should they? Whether Gandhi or Martin Luther King or anyone like them could persuade a world entrenched in
the idea that war and power and gaining profit and control over the masses are the only motivations and methods in life is unfortunately doubtful. People who want to be King of the Mountain don't like people like Gandhi and all they stand for.
I believe Gandhi was right in thinking that people who think they are high and mighty can learn something by cleaning up excrement. Only when you're pulled down a few pegs are you able to take a different kind of look at yourself in relation to the rest of the world. There are things in our humanness which we all share, whether we're rich and powerful or poor and humble -- the one-ness Gandhi speaks of.
I've been sick, and I don't feel as if anything I say is worth very much lately. What I need is a good, old-fashioned earth treatment. It interests me that Gandhi was sick so often and seemed so frail, yet accomplished so much. There's a lesson to be learned there.
Mal
anneofavonlea
November 20, 2003 - 03:14 pm
So in the end you agree that his children were actually well educated at home, or am I seeing what I want to see.In our school system those best educated are those with strong home interest. Surely Gandhi's children had marvellous lessons on respect for their fellow man, on literature and even basic living skills.Had they in later life wanted formal education, it would have been accessible it seems, because they appear articulate.
The latrine thing it seems to me is so obvious. We should all of us clean latrines, or toilet facilities at least occasionally. The idea that another human is responsible for something which I consider above myself sickens me.It is of course easy enough to perform these duties for those we love, but try it for those who displease you and do it smilingly, and I will know you consider me your equal.I like to think Gandhi was more about raising the lower caste than downsizing those seen as upper, when he shared these duties.
I like the grandson story, and it certainly worked in this instance. Here in our hostel, when my children and grandchildren are visiting, we work very hard to make no differentiation, simply because it creates envy. That is not to say at weekends, when we are alone that we dont do special things for those nearest and dearest, and I think Gandhi's life with his kids was always a public thing.From the childs perspective that may well have been difficult, the grandson at least, seems to have learned the lesson well.
Really am impressed with the walk in seven peoples shoes idea mal, the simple often escapes one when reading, and it certainly reminded me of Imelda Marcos, instead of the valuable notion of trying to see the world from anothers perspective.
Why was Ghandi's stance so effective, why are we here looking at it and trying to learn.I think the self reliance thing has so much to do with it. he gives us a way to act, which may indeed help if utilised present day.
Anneo
MountainRose
November 20, 2003 - 03:31 pm
the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence. I looked the whole thing over and found one section particularly interesting, enough to print it our and read it thoroughy. That was "The Meaning of Nonviolence" which Gandhi's grandson wrote in response to questions asked by prisoners. There is MUCH good advice in how all of us can live a live of nonviolence, both the aggressive violence we do and the passive violence we are all prone to. I also get the distinct impression that many of us in the West, have misunderstood much of the message that Gandhi attempted to relay, by just being passive, which his form of resistance certainly was not.
I do disagree with him about some things such as the death penalty. I don't see where there is any rehabilitation to be done in such people as Jeffrey Dahmer or the Green River killer who killed some 45 women in the state of Washington. But those ought to be very rare exceptions. For most prisoners I do believe rehabilitation is possible, and our prison system needs reform to where it is fair, not where guards can take advantage of the incarcerated, no matter what they have done. I also disagree with his point of view about gun ownership. It isn't the guns that kill; it is our violent attitudes that kill. I belive in gun ownership not only for sport (target practice only in my case, no killing of living things!) but also for self-defense.
I even went so far as to write to the institute to see if I would get a reply concerning terrorism in our world today, how it should be fought, because I don't think Gandhi's methods would work. And I wanted their opinion on our presence in Iraq, which I think is a genuine and necessary presence for the sake of the Iraqi people who were so oppressed, besides the fact that I think terrorism does and did have tenacles in Iraq. So it will be interesting to see if they respond and what they say.
Mal, sorry to hear you are sick. Hope you get well soon. But sick or well, your posts are always highly interesting, and this last one was particularly so to me.
Ginny
November 21, 2003 - 09:15 am
Malryn I liked your point of view on how "literature" might be taught! I am sorry you are feeling bad, hope you are well soon! I'm not sure I agree he was always sick, I thought he made the point that he was always in great health (while talking about his illnesses) hahahaah no seriously, I thought he was saying we all get sick but it's my walking and this and that that got me out of it? In Edit: I just read in the Wolpert, Malryn, that Gandhi worried over his health because he considered illness to be connected somehow with sin, I need to read that one again, but it might explain a lot about the way he went about cures.
Rose, thank you for that explanation of Erikson, interesting point on how his own disciples did not see him that way and ISN'T THAT a fantastic site? I had no idea that existed, still trying to get a Gandhi relative to talk to us, and still looking for my emails of the Guest Speaker I hoped to get in here, never give up!!
Rose, thank you for the Fischer book, and the comparison of his passionate writings and the writing in his autobiography, I saw Eloise somewhere saying he wasn't much of a writer in this book, I wonder what you all think of his style here? And how it differs from his other writings? Maybe we need to read some of them, thank you SOOO much for the fasting quote, and see!
Good point on you didn't live on an ashram, I'm not sure myself what that is, but I gather it's communal living where everybody is equal (like Animal Farm?) or not?? Sort of a Utopia which Walt Disney actually wanted Epcot to be?
Joan, wonderful point on Cesar Chavez, that man has always fascinated me, I would LOVE to read his book (isn't there a book about him?) Maybe we need an Uncommon Heroes series in the Books!
Malryn thank you for that interesting background of Erkison.
That's an interesting thing because many Jews are of Nordic appearance.
Oh good point on Stevens as the Secular Idealist in Remains of the Day!!
Anneo, when you say "So in the end you agree that his children were actually well educated at home," I'm not sure they ARE at home? It sounded to me like lots of teachers, etc? I am not personally educated in ashrams, but I think Ella brought up the idea of Home Schools and I think they are a mixed blessing, here in the states. I am afraid that some of the teachers don't know the subjects the children need to know, well, and then too, the Pennsylvania Dutch children don't go very far in school either, I wonder which is best, really? I don't know! You are DEAD right that his heirs, at least his grandson seem extremely articulate and well spoken. We must find out what THEY thought! Your own situation there in Australia is incredibly romantic to me, I wish you'd tell us more about it!
I agree that Gandhi's own presence must have been an incredible inspiration, but again we know very few people actually understood what he was saying.
Rose, let us know what the Institute responds, if they do!!!
HO@@ we're about to leave Part IV, is there anything else in these pages you'd like to comment on or that you have questions about?
I agree that self reliance is a powerful motivating force in this section, there's Mr. Kallenbach traveling to the Trappist Monastary learing how to make shoes, and Gandhi teaching it to the children, the whole thing seems to say self reliance makes a man not dependent on any other person or government (make your own salt, weave your own clothes and wear them proudly). I can see the wisdom in that, too.
I am trying to read the Wolpert and the sheer magnitude of what Gandhi did, the people he met with , the political maneuvering, the things he achieved, none of which are mentioned in this book, are almost incredible, the man had a million agendas going all the time, we need to hear from those of you reading other books, as well.
Tom mentioned the dialects in Hindu the other day and I thought you might be interested while you're thinking about Part IV, in looking at this:
Gandhi's last letter to Jawarharlal Nehru, written in Hindi: 18 January 1848
CHI JAWARHALAL
Give up your fast.
I am sending herewith a copy of the telegram received form the speaker of West Punjab,. Zaheed Hussain had said exactly what I told you.
May you live long and continue to be the jewel of India.
Blessings from
BAPU
What other aspects of Part IV or the questions above interest you today before we move on to the last section?
ginny
Ella Gibbons
November 21, 2003 - 10:40 am
So sorry I was ill for a couple of days and am now much better and have read all the posts in my absence, very meaningful and well thought-out posts. I copied a few as I thought they were meaningful and reflect my own thoughts on Gandhi:
"Gandhi was often very insensitive to his own family, and often gave them no real choices and then justified that in his own mind. But I think that's also often true of a very strong paternal figure within a family because they look at the family as an extension of themselves, like a right arm" - ROSE
"In this cause I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill – Hallie Mae quoting Gandhi
"The fact that so many people loved him enough to care whether he lived or died, tells how hard he worked on their behalf." - ROSE
"Whether Gandhi or Martin Luther King or anyone like them could persuade a world entrenched in the idea that war and power and gaining profit and control over the masses are the only motivations and methods in life is unfortunately doubtful."- MAL
"I like to think Gandhi was more about raising the lower caste than downsizing those seen as upper, when he shared these duties." - Anneo
I have the History of INdia that I mentioned before and it has chapters on Gandhi and much to say about why his policies did not endure. (This book is interesting as each chapter is written by noted experts on India, such as Nehru, P. J. Marshall, Stanley Wolpert, and others)
AS I interpret these ideas, he wanted his idealistic viewpoints on communal living to trickle down to every village in India and thereby change the attitudes of all; however he was not a politician and politicans have the power and make the laws and the rules that people must adhere to. (Gandhi admitted this later in life) The government today is a vast bureaucracy, and is very intrusive into the lives of the average Indian for the development of the economy, education, welfare and family planning, even though there are statues of Gandhi everywhere and buildings and roads named after him.
How could it be otherwise?
He truly was an idealist, and very interesting to study and discuss. I am sure we will go into more depth of his influence in TOM'S discussion of FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT.
I had marked one paragraph in Chapter XXXIV and would love your comments on it, before we move on:
"I am familiar with the superstition that self-realization is possible only in the fourth stage of life, i.e., sannyasa (renunciation). But it is a matter of common knowledge that those who defer preparation for this invaluable experience until the last stage of life attain not self-realization but old age amounting to a second and pitable childhood, living as a burden on this earth. I have a full recollection that I held these views even whilst I was teaching i.e., 1911-1912, though I might not then have expressed them in identical language."
What does he mean?
JoanK
November 21, 2003 - 02:06 pm
ELLA: Ericson (who I read many years ago) explains the theory about the stages of life which Indians hold each man must pass through, and which relate to Erickson's own theories about psychological stages in life. Perhaps someone who is reading Erickson now could explain it better. One of these stages (applied to men, of course, not women) is after the family has grown. The man retires from the family (and the world) and seeks self realization: ie. Gandhi's "coming face to face with God". Gandhi is unusual in his culture, not in this seeking, but in doing it while he is in the middle of a worldly life. (Have I got it right? I mean to read Erickson again, but I've bought so many books already, I've exceeded my budget).
TigerTom
November 21, 2003 - 02:34 pm
Ella,
Indians are master Bureaucrats. Have been for centuries.
It would drive you up the wall to get tangled up with
one.
Point, a European Sea Captain who made port in India
learned that it would take 600 signatures for his ship
to clear port.
Even today, it takes a few hundred signatures to release
a government payroll.
An Indian Civil Servant knows the book of regulations by
heart and will beat you into the ground with them.
Indians have a very annoying habit: when one is trying
to make a point, give an order, whatever to an Indian and
he doesn't want to accept it, he will say "You are Shouting
at me" most people will answer "No, I am not" the Indian
will answer "You are shouting at me" this will go on until
the person (usually a Westerner, will say "OK I apologize for
shouting" The Indian has put the other person on the defensive
and in the position of apologizing to the Indian. The Indian
has taken control and will win the point or ignore the order
or whatever. I had to deal with it a number of times with
Indians I had working for me. I learned after a while that
I just had to ignore this and not lose my temper and really
start shouting.
Tiger Tom
kiwi lady
November 21, 2003 - 02:57 pm
I think women come to their search for self realization around the menopause. I was widowed then, but even prior to that, I began to want to know who I was. Woman are so embroiled in the household regardless of whether they work or the supposition that they are equal. It is a fact in my opinion that it is still left almost exclusively to the woman to be all to her family- both spouse and children. Self gets lost somewhere along the way. In the last nine years I have learnt more about myself and more about what my values are than I ever did in all the years of my life. I know that like Ghandi I want to live in peace with all men. This includes with family, neighbours, friends and those of other nationalities. I am totally against violence either political or domestic. I value human life above material possessions. I empathise with displaced people and the way we have treated indigenous peoples in the past, both in my land and in foreign parts. I have to say that my sympathies get me into a lot of hot water amongst my contemporaries. I feel this way even though I am mostly of British stock. My father came from England after the war as part of a British navy group of tutors and he met, married my mother and retired from the Navy. He never became naturalised even now he has to get a re entry permit to come back in and travels on a dual passport. My hero of the twentieth century is Nelson Mandela.
I think Ghandi was 100% correct in his assumption that to chase worldly possessions is to lose oneself. This is what I at least think is one of the things he is trying to tell us. I sadly see this in one of my two sons, both of whom have, at a very young age become very comfortable financially. This son has done a complete turn around in his philosophy on life. I am very sad about this.
He has lost his compassion for others and has become very hard. I feel he has lost himself in material possessions. This was a boy who until 6 years ago - right from about 5yrs old was a champion of the underdog.
Carolyn
anneofavonlea
November 21, 2003 - 03:01 pm
Is saying that the belief is in itself incorrect anyway. It follows that one is either born with an early instinct for self realization, or imbued with it in early years. Seems to me then, that this belief probably shaped his idea of "protecting" his own children in their formative years.
Some time back Anne Alden mentioned Taoism and one of lao te zu's teachings was " to understand others one needs wisdom, to understand oneself, one needs enlightenment." Both understandings require a life times work.
Ella glad to have you back, you add so much.
Ginny this is not really romantic, but it seems to me at times onerous. Since the children we live with are pr-teen when they arrive, they are definitly very subject to change in attitude. However, as this is a state funded education facility, we are required not to "indoctrinate" with our personal views. We can of course insist on a standard of behaviour. Bottom line some of our kids could do with some "change", and we seek to do it through literature and example.Happily as each child lives here 40 weeks per year, for five years they will take on some of what we would seek to teach.Here is where the onerous comes in, because we would not wish to promote our personal views on religious beliefs,we look for other ways to show a message, which is why studies such as the Julius Caesar forum, give us such great opportunity.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 21, 2003 - 08:54 pm
Malryn (Mal)
November 21, 2003 - 10:03 pm
I've done a lot of soul-searching in my life and a lot of self-analysis. So much so that there have been times when I was afflicted with what's called "Analysis Paralysis" in 12 step groups. After all this struggle, I had to admit that the "me" I carry around now is very much like the "me" I was when I was a little girl.
There have been many geographic changes, changes in relationships, changes in family through death and divorce, and other changes, but what's changed in me is the way I think, the way I react, and the way I observe. I choose these myself. My emotions are mine. It's up to me to decide and choose which ones are comfortable for me and to subdue those which are not.
I can sit right in the middle of a bowl of cranberry sauce and see all the cranberries one by one, but when I do, I can't see the bowl as a whole. One view is close up and personal; the other is not. I think when a person accepts who and what he or she is the longer view is possible. To me, the longer view is easier than the narrow one where I can't see the bowl for the cranberries or the forest for the trees.
When Gandhi talks about renunciation, what does he mean? Renunciation of possessions and worldly things? Renunciation of self? Death is the most extreme and final renunciation of self, isn't it? You can't take it with you, right? Death is the renunciation of everything then. Is that what Gandhi is talking about? Is he saying that life is preparation for death? This sounds like a Christian concept to me. Is it also a Hindu one?
Way back in the 60's a friend said to me, “Quand je suis morte, je suis morte.” That’s what I think, too. Because I do, every minute of my life is valuable. If I choose to decorate this life with things I consider beautiful, that’s all right. Gandhi wouldn’t agree. If I tell you I’ve known who I am all of my life, some of you wouldn’t agree. If I say there were times when I wasn’t comfortable with who I am, some of you would know what I mean. If I tell you my life has been better and easier since I accepted myself, some of you would understand that, too. It seems to me that Gandhi strived all of his life to be more than he was. This is what separates the Gandhis of the world from me.
All of the Indians I’ve known (and they were all men) have been the biggest pests I ever met in my life. They would not take no for an answer. I remember one who followed my sister and me halfway around Washington, DC trying to change our minds about having dinner with him. Others I knew elsewhere did the same type of thing. I wonder if part of Gandhi’s success was not just friendly persuasion but persistence? Was part of his technique in getting what he wanted non-violently the wearing down of his opposition the way Tiger Tom talks about?
That’s all.
Mal
anneofavonlea
November 21, 2003 - 10:44 pm
" would de fuhrer have been de fuhrer,if he saw what everyone else saw when he looked in the muhrer"
There is no way for those of us, who see death as the beginning of our real journey, to impart that to those who have a different view, without appearing evangelistic. "To those who believe no explanation is needed to those who dont, none is possible."
Though it is certainly obvious that when one is dead.... one is indeed dead, it is also patently obvious to me at least, that Gandhi is more alive today than when he was physically present.Also I subscribe to the theory that I should be always aspiring to something better, and am disappointed in myself often, when I fail in this endeavour.
In Gandhi's case, I think he strove to be the best he could be, and though he may have thought he had failed, does anyone really not believe as Einstein did, that it is almost impossible to conceive now that such a man walked this same earth.He certainly did not insist that all people give up the things they considered beautiful.I dont think outside his immediate family he insisted on anything.Renunciation simply means that one is not owned by their posessions as so many of todays people are.In my Convent days, we were required by our rule to give up anything to which we felt a strong attatchment, anything that was material, that we felt we couldn't do without.It is one of the tenets I still try to live by, because there is a wonderful peace in not needing to "own" objects.I know that they are part of my life, but not my life.All that matters is that which I can take with me, and all I get to keep as I go is what is in my head.Hopefully it is filled with valuable thoughts and beliefs.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 21, 2003 - 10:53 pm
ANNEO, you win; I quit. What an odious reflected comparison, though.
Honey, you brought me to tears.
Mal
GingerWright
November 21, 2003 - 10:56 pm
Well said, Thanks.
anneofavonlea
November 21, 2003 - 11:08 pm
If this seems to you to be a criticism of you, then I have no ability with words, or you are misreading me.
It is probably not sensible for me to try and explain further here.I am sorry if you are hurt by my apolgia though.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 21, 2003 - 11:20 pm
Please forget it, ANNEO. I wasn't practicing what I preach. You gave me the nudge I needed, and I'm grateful for that.
Thanks everyone. This has been one of the most enlightening discussions I've been in. In fact, it made for a very interesting telephone conversation I had earlier in the evening.
Goodnight, everybody. This old lady and her little black cat are going to bed.
Mal
kiwi lady
November 22, 2003 - 12:32 am
Anneo - you mean I have to give up my PC? Oh NO!
anneofavonlea
November 22, 2003 - 04:48 am
Carolyn, especially as you put it to such good use.
Anneo
Ann Alden
November 22, 2003 - 07:20 am
Here is a link to the still existent society that Gokhale founded in 1905.Servants of India Society Homepage
And a quote from Gandhi about Gokhale!
Writing about Gokhale, Gandhiji says that he was "pure as crystal, gentle as a lamb, brave as a lion, and chivalrous to a fault. …He was and remains for me the most perfect man on the political field." (Gokhale - My Political Guru, by M.K. Gandhi)
Ella Gibbons
November 22, 2003 - 02:43 pm
We seem to be at odds on this word “RENUNCIATION.” But isn’t Gandhi telling us that it is a superstition?
Is it one of those cases where we all have different points of view? I think so - see the question in the heading!
Hahaha, TOM! You should know, can you tell us a story about your own experience with requesting an Indian to do something. You just shouted and it worked? I have started reading FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT and it reads like fiction – wonderful! Shall I tell the group why cows are sacred and are walking around everywhere? Or save it for your discussion.
As to milk, Gandhi rambles on and on about his renunciation of milk, I thought that a bit ridiculous – so did others who thought he was carrying the religious convictions a bit too far.
“It is a fact in my opinion that it is still left almost exclusively to the woman to be all to her family- both spouse and children. Self gets lost somewhere along the way” – I agree, Carolyn! I am still looking for my self, I hope that isn’t me in the mirror? Hahahaha
But I am sorry about the son who is lost in “material possessions.” This is a big issue and we could get into this for a very long time, but we would be leaving Gandhi out of it I’m afraid, because after all, we live in a different society, a different era.
ANNEO believes that “one is either born with an early instinct for self realization, or imbued with it in early years.” So it is not a matter of stages of life?
SELF-REALIZATION! I have no idea what that means! I remember years ago it was the fad to say I have found myself – is it the same as that?
Thanks, MAL for Erickson’s “EIGHT STAGES” – I am in the last stage and the prospect does not frighten me at all. Pscho-social development – Good Heavens, my daughter, the Ph.D. nurse, has talked to us forever on the subject while she was studying.
Your metaphor of cranberries is right on – THE RIGHT SEASON FOR CRANBERRIES IS UPON US!
ANNEO stated that “Renunciation simply means that one is not owned by their posessions as so many of todays people are.” What does “being owned” by possessions mean anyway?
Couldn’t renunciation also mean giving up life for death?
No, NO, we will NOT GIVE UP OUR COMPUTERS! HAHAHA
Thanks, ANN, for that site – Gokhale was mentioned frequently in the book and was much loved by Gandhi although I don’t believe Gandhi ever joined in his Society? But I’m not sure of that fact.
AS WE ARE COMING INTO A HOLIDAY SEASON, SHOULD WE NOW GO ON TO PART V? We don’t how many of us will be here for Thanksgiving and beyond – I am going out of town for 2-3 days but will look in at my daughter’s house!
We have yet to answer some of the questions in the heading. Gandhi seems to be living on an ashram called Tolstoy. What is the meaing of that term and the other one called Phoenix? Is it clear why they are named that?
Anyone?
Malryn (Mal)
November 22, 2003 - 03:23 pm
Hi, ELLA. It's good to see you.
Gandhi says, "I am familiar with the superstition that self-realization is possible only in the fourth stage of life," As I interpret it, he goes on to say that sannyasa (renunciation) can be done at any time, not just at the fourth stage of life. It seems to me that he practiced this and came to self-realization and sannyasa quite early in his life.
It is my feeling that we should not stop this discussion because of the holiday. There would be a loss of momentum, but wouldn't be with one day only a time when not many people were posting. Let's see how others feel.
I chose those cranberries delibrately, ELLA, as you no doubt realized. Yes, there are differences of opinion here, but when aren't there in these discussions? My stating part of my belief is in no way a threat to anyone. I'm not in the business of trying to convert people to anything I think or believe. I think ANNEO and others realize this. The seven pairs of shoes I put on to reach my conclusions about myself and life are not necessarily the same seven pairs of shoes others might try. It's the exchange of ideas that makes a discussion like this interesting and stimulating, I think.
Gandhi examined many, many ideas that were unlike his own before he came to conclusions about himself and what he did, didn't he? I have spent the past few years reading, examining and thinking about religions and philosophies which are different from my own, most recently Islam and the Koran. I feel that by acquainting myself with these different ideas and beliefs I come closer to understanding a world that can seem very small at times and very large and complex other times.
I'm anxious to know if anyone else thinks perhaps Gandhi's persistence had something to do with his success in non-violent negotiations. With his experience Tiger Tom gives us a picture of Indians that few others of us really know.
Mal
TigerTom
November 22, 2003 - 03:28 pm
Ella,
NO, I did not shout. It is a ploy used by Indians
when they don't want to do something, when they are
caught doing something they shouldn't, want to make
a point which on does not want to accept, etc.
They will say "You are Shouting at me" one will reply
"I am not shouting at you" Indian will ignore that and
repeat "You are shouting at me" this will go on for a bit
until a person either starts yelling at the Indian or
simply to get the Indian to stop claiming that he is
being shouted at, to say "Okay, I apoligize for shouting"
but all that does it give the Indian the upper hand. He
has forced you to apologize for something you have not done
and you are now on the defensive. When one first comes across
this one will begin to shout, loudly. The Indian will complain
to your boss you will have, by that time, heard you yelling.
I learned that one must keep the temper in check, to continue
on with what is at hand and to ignore the Indian when he
says "You are shouting at me" eventually when the Indian
sees that it is doing him no good he will change to another
tactic. He doesn't give up easily. The main thing the Indian
is trying to do is to keep you off balance by claiming that
you are shouting at him.
One thing the British did that Americans, unfortunately,
do not: the British never tried to be buddies with the
Indians, never treated them as equals and always backed
an Englishman when there was a disupute between a Brit
and an Indian. The Americans carried things too far, it
is all right to be friendly, and to respect the Indians,
try to be fair. But Americans tried to be Pals, buddies,
and lost the respect of the Indians. Treated the Indians
as if they were doing us a favor by simply allowing us
to employ them or giving them AID , etc. We were not on
a footing as equals. Again we lost the respect of the Indians.
Most Americans Supervisors would take an Indian's Word over
his American subordinates without question and would not
allow an Indian to be fired even for cause. This too lost
us the respect of the Indians. We had 1,000 Indians employees
working for the State Department and USIS. Used to see Indians
wandering the halls of the Embassy and no one knew who they
were or where they worked. The Russians employed NO Indians,
would not allow any Indian into their Embassy, made India
repay loans or buy items from Russia with hard currency.
The Russians would not accept Rupee's. The Russians were
widely respected and well liked. The Americans were neither.
Tiger Tom
Ginny
November 22, 2003 - 03:50 pm
Ella has done such a good job addressing everybody!! (Ella I think Malryn has answsered the ashram names issue). I will be here after Thanksgiving but not on Thanksgiving Day if that helps, if you'd like to move ahead to Part V, Ella, tomorrow? Let's see how many others are ready!
Anneo's remark earlier " it is also patently obvious to me at least, that Gandhi is more alive today than when he was physically present" caused me to remember this cartoon by a very famous cartoonist if I can see his signature correctly. It says, "The odd thing about assassins, Dr. King, is that they think they've killed you."
An interesting concept to remember, today of all days.
I also found the subject of renunciation very meaningful and have thought about this one all day: Renunciation simply means that one is not owned by their possessions as so many of today's people are. In my Convent days, we were required by our rule to give up anything to which we felt a strong attachment, anything that was material, that we felt we couldn't do without. It is one of the tenets I still try to live by, because there is a wonderful peace in not needing to "own" objects. I know that they are part of my life, but not my life .All that matters is that which I can take with me, and all I get to keep as I go is what is in my head. Hopefully it is filled with valuable thoughts and beliefs.
A wonderful meditation. We're getting some great thoughts out of this discussion.
Wolpert quotes Gandhi as saying:
A satyagrahi gives no thought to his body. Fear cannot touch him at all. That is why he does not arm himself with any material weapons. In his constant pursuit of truth, a satyagrahi must be indifferent to wealth, Gandhi argued, though this does not mean that a satyagrahi can have no wealth. Money is welcome if one can have it consistently with one's pursuit of truth. A satyagrahi would be obliged , moreover, to break free of family attachments, walking alone on the edge of truth's sharp sword, indifferent to any temptations, fear, or tyranny, single-pointedly focused on his faith in God. If we learn the use of the weapon of stayagraha, we can employ it to overcome all hardships originating from injustice….not here alone…more so in our home country.
The universal efficacy of Gandhi's spiritually inspired method of non-violent struggle against any form of injustice was thus for the first time clearly articulated by its remarkable author. He had not only transformed himself through the soul-tempering fires of suffering and hardship but had turned his particular grievance of the "Black Act" from a struggle launched on behalf of his tiny community in the Transvaal and Natal into a mighty message. It became a torch destined to light countless paths to freedom of millions suffering from discrimination and oppression, whether perpetuated by imperial or provincial tyrannies, in every dark corner of the earth.
That's quite an epitaph, isn't it?
I really like his little quirky sense of humor and the books reveal he really was the jokester, I liked this one, "They were too ignorant of the rules of municipal sanitation and hygiene to do without the help of supervision of the municipality. If those who went there had all been Robinson Crusoe's, theirs would have been a different story. But we do not know of a single emigrant colony of Robinson Crusoes in the world. " hahaahha love it.
We may not look forward to any reward for our labours, but it is my firm conviction that all good action is bound to bear fruit in the end. Let us forget the past and think of the task before us. Love the man.
Does anybody have anything else in this Part IV they would like to talk about? Did you notice the droll chapter title of Chapter I? hahaaha
I would LOVE, just for my own use, to see a list of the books this man read or studied.
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 22, 2003 - 04:07 pm
can mean anything you want it to mean, I was merely stating what it means to me.
As for owning or being owned by posessions, if ones entire life is spent on the acquisition of material things, and their upkeep one is indeed owned by them.Here in Australia our indigenous races are looked down upon because they have no interest in ownership, and as a consequence give generously to anyone they see as having a need.I have a beautiful nativity scene, given me by my mother, who is deceased. Last year as we were setting it up my husband handled one of the Pieces with something less than care, and it was broken.I behaved very badly, and stayed angry for a few days.On the third day, I went driving and hit an emu, doing considerable damage to our car, which my husband has always appeared to treasure, sometimes it seemed to me even more than his wife and family.I was ashamed on my return, when his only concern was for my welfare, especially as my accident was way more expensive than his.Suffice to say I think his attitude to ownership is the more admirable, even if the less attainable.
I have no position on the holiday issue.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 22, 2003 - 04:53 pm
I believe I was too quick in posting that this discussion should continue. Very little changes for me from one day to the next. It does for others. After thinking about it, I believe the discussion should be at the convenience of the discussion leaders. ELLA and GINNY should be the ones to decide if the Gandhi discussion should go on through the holiday.
Mal
Ginny
November 22, 2003 - 05:04 pm
Well I'm personally thinking that (since I have not reread yet to the end of the book ) it suits me to go to the end of November, I'll be here anyway, now what contraints the others of you have, of course, you'll have to deal with, but there's a lot more, or so I think, coming up, so I think I'll have to say, because of my own schedule, that I need to be here till the end, it's not, however anything that anybody else needs to do, there's a LOT of stuff we haven't even touched (and may not get to by next week, either, unfortunately. I wish I could speed read, I'd finish the Wolpert.) I'm here for the long haul, have got a lot of great photos left too!
ginny
JoanK
November 22, 2003 - 05:55 pm
I'm for staying, too. If we see there are too few people to keep things going, we can stop.
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 22, 2003 - 07:25 pm
A friend of my daughter’s, Marthe is married to Sourèche an Indian born in Pondichéry. They met in Paris when he was studying at the Sorbonne. After graduation they came back to live in a small town in Quebec. They have 3 children, Elora 13, Manu, 11 and Vidjay, 7.
They went back to Pondichéry last year to visit his parents and see if they wanted to move there permanently where his roots are. He had been away from home 20 odd years. They are staying with his parents, his grandmother and his other siblings.
In Marthe’s email yesterday she gave us an example of what the health care system is like in Pondichéry, as Vidjay had a high fever that needed medical attention.
Sourèche decided to go to St-Joseph Hospital in Cluny, the doctor diagnosed a viral infection. The nurse tells him that he must go and buy the syringe and the medication. I had the choice of a ward, he says, at 20 rubles (0.65) or a private room 150 rbs ($4.70) per night. I must pay a deposit of 1,000 rbs ($32.00) for the bed. It seems inexpensive for Quebecers considering that the average salary in India is about 1,000 to 3,000 rbs per month. .
In the courtyard, I recognize a woman who arrives at the hospital with her pregnant anemic sister about to give birth. Her husband is nearby, probably alcoholic and insensible to the situation. After two days Vidjey is well enough to go home. I see the women I talked about earlier holding a baby in her arms, she tells me that her sister died in childbirth. I felt helplessness and injustice.
I don’t feel that a doctor, in India, gives himself the mission and the responsibility to absolutely save lives. First he doesn't’t have the financial means and the PERCEPTION OF DEATH IS SO DIFFERENT from us. It is reality, fatality and nobody can do anything about it. It costs a lot to keep people alive as long as possible.
When I received the detailed statement from the hospital for 4 days of care, I realized for the first time how much it would cost for the government to actually take the health care responsibility for the total population of that country.
We are not a billion people in Quebec but do we really have the means to assume a medical system which we benefit with eyes closed??? For once, I had the impression of taking my part of the responsibility.
Marthe wrote that they are coming back to Quebec in June 2004.
Éloïse
Jonathan
November 23, 2003 - 12:00 am
India is known as an epidemioligist's nightmare. And yet, as far as I know, Gandhi never considered a public health care solution. But he did have a lot to say about sanitation. His simple remedies were as much as most could afford at any rate. Sometimes his 'message' seems designed to keep the poor happy with low expectations. And the rich were happy that he never threatened to soak them. And were happy with Gandhi's ideas about wealth held in 'trust'. In the final analysis he may even have saved the country from communism. That being his gratest legacy.
The Autobiography certainly doesn't tell the whole story. It's so tempting to go looking for more information. To get to the truth one may well have to do as the professors say: go deeper and deeper....It has been most interesting to get some idea of what Gandhi was all about. There is so much that has been written about him. And since Ginny is inviting information on what we have discovered in other sources, I would like to quote from 'Interview With India', written by John Frederick Muehl, following a months' long journey around Indian villages in 1948. He quotes a peasant as saying:
'Gandhi. He is not so difficult to understand. He is really a very consistent character. Just remember that he is the most loving, the most religious, the most honest - in a word, the most reactionary figure in India.'
At one point Muehl joined up with a troupe, 'a ragged band of travelling minstrels.' Under the leadership of one Swamiji Gopal, a natural comedian, great at doing political satires, and a wonderful impersonator.
'Swamiji never needed to announce (to his village audience) his subject. He went into his act and his spectators were convulsed...Invariably these acts were keyed to his audiences. To my knowledge, he had six variations of one, an imitation of Gandhi that he loved to perform in which he portrayed the Mahatma as an inoffensive old fool. In its simplest version he would appear on the stage clad in nothing but the traditional Gujarat dhoti and make well-meaning but inane and pathetic generalizations over a miniature spinning wheel, which never functioned correctly. Increasing complications would finally get him hopelessly tangled in its cotton. As the act proceeded, he became more and more involved in his formless philosophies till in the end he forsook the non-violence which he was discussing to smash the wheel into a dozen small pieces. The villagers loved it. It was apparent from their reactions that it had crystallized some feeling of their own about the Mahatma for often, when Swamiji was through, they would not only applaud but would cry "Yes! Yes!" over and over.'
I've enjoyed all your posts and there was something in each of them I would like to have replied to. There's something in that 'message' of Gandhi's for everyone. I can't make up my mind. There were those who thought of Gandhi as an evil genius. Churchill must have had more than prejudice as a reason to call Gandhi a fakir. In the meantime, I feel that Gandhi's own words about himself, especially his Auto-bio should be allowed a hearing on their own distinctive merit.
Mal, I thing you're absolutely right about Gandhi's persistence. He just would not give up. The solution to every conflict must be in there, somewhere. He started his career with refusing to pocket an insult. He learned how to turn them to his advantage. He wouldn't budge from his firm principles, while boasting of his ability to compromise. He would not accept defeat. Too proud for that. And courage was a prime virtue. He went as far as to insist that when it came to choosing between cowardice and violence, he would choose
violence.
I wanted to give an example of the fruits of Brahmacharya, but it's too late. I'll post it tomorrow. Now why did I think that Thanksgiving was celebrated last weekend?
Jonathan
Ginny
November 23, 2003 - 05:56 am
Jonathanji!! Welcome back! I loved your story, that's hilarious and shows the effect, perhaps, of (does it?) a person with ideals so high that most can't hope to understand (it WAS funny). I expect that many wanted Gandhi to smash that wheel or smash something, it would make him more human.
Actually it kind of reminds me of Assembly in 1965 when I began teaching, our high school kids would assemble to hear or see some talent of the others. Invariably the "bad boys" or those who had not demonstrated any ability whatsoever, would mock and laugh at those on the stage or those presenting, boy howdy did I lecture them, threaten them with going up there themselves, and try to straighten them out, physically removing them when I could not make them politely sit there, these "kids" were only a few years younger than I was (this was the Vietnam War era where a bad mark sent you to the draft, so I, at 21, had 19 year olds in my home room). I think it's human nature to laugh at others and their accomplishments or what we don't understand, but I also see the humor and I bet Gandhi would have roared, his own sense of humor was lengendary.
I can't IMAGINE how people were strong enough to endure what many had to deliberately go thru and to keep on doing it even when it was seen the terrible injuries that resulted. Not many people could have led others to do that, usually old Numero Uno gets in the way when bodily harm begins to result, thank you for that super commentary. I'm off to go thru a stack 3 feet high of old Life Magazines from the period, if I'm lucky there will be one with Gandhiji in it!
American Thanksgiving is this Thursday but I think you had yours in Canada last week?
ginny
Ginny
November 23, 2003 - 08:24 am
Eloise, I did not mean to ignore your wonderful informative post in fact I spent half the night thinking about it but wanted to look up Pondicherry before I spoke and forgot totally about it! Pondicherry is in India and also was mentioned in the Life of Pi, and while at Oxford I learned that Pi has its own separate meaning in Hindi I think it is, (I've forgotten now what they said it meant but it threw the entire story into a different light). I believe there may have been an underlying theme in that book based on the Indian meaning of the word Pi. Thank you for that excellent report!
ginny
Jonathan
November 23, 2003 - 11:21 am
Jonathan
November 23, 2003 - 12:51 pm
Can we lesser mortals ever hope to understand such a soul? Gandhi hoped we would. And he was very meticulous in saving every scrap of paper that conveyed something of his message. And in that very fact lies the difficulty. Even Stanley Wolpert has to admit in the preface to his bio of Gandhi:
'Though invariably daunted by Gandhi's elusive personality and the extent of his archive, I kept hoping that greater maturity and deeper knowledge of India would help me to understand the Mahatma's mentality and reasons for his often contradictory behavior.'
With that in mind, and hoping to make it easier for others who would also like to read more, for a better understanding of Gandhi, I would like to submit, for your enjoyment, a page from Ved Mehta's book: Mahatma Gandhi and His Apostles. A really delightful look at this enigmatic soul through the eyes of his admirers.
'There are two standard bibliographies' writes Ved Mehta in 1976, 'of Gandhian literature: "Mahatma Gandhi: A Descriptive Bibliography," by Jagdish Sharma, which was published in 1955 and was brought out in a second edition in 1968, and "Gandhi Bibliography," by Dharma Vir, which was published in 1967. Both editors try to catalogue all well-known and some not so well-known remarks by or about Gandhi, with the result that both volumes, in addition to being formidable in size, are rather clumsy specimens of their genre. Vir's bibliography, which serves as a sort of stepping stone to Sharma's monolith, has three thousand four hundred and eighty-five numbered entries either by or about Gandhi. Listed are biographical studies of Gandhi ("Mahatma Gandhi: The Man Who Became One with the Universal Being," "Romantic Gandhi: A Search for Mahatma's Originality"); poems about Gandhi (Gandhi: An Epic Fragment"); plays about Gandhi ("Gandhiji in South Africa: An Historical Drama in Five Acts," "Gandhi: The Man of Destiny: A Passion Play") novels about Gandhi ("Waiting for the Mahatma," "Nine Hours to Rama"); collections of essays on Gandhi's influence upon literature ("Impact of Gandhism on Marathi Literature," "Gandhi in Kannada Literature"); albums of paintings, drawings, and photographs of Gandhi (Mahatma Gandhi: Pictorial History of a Great Life," 'A Glimpse into Gandhiji's Soul"); compilations of Gandhi's thougts and sayings ("My God," "My Non-Violence," "My Philosophy of Life," "My Picture of Free India," "My Religion," "My Socialism," "My Soul's Agony," "Precious Pearls: Glittering Galaxy of Gandhian Gems, Teachings of Mahatma Gandhi on More Than Five Hundred Topics"); periodicals devoted to Gandhi's ideas; other bibliographies of Gandhian literature; sections on science, technology, agriculture, animal husbandry, medicine, art, philosophy, religion, psychology, education, and economics, each from a Gandhian point of view; and so on. Vir goes to the length of listing in a separate section two hundred and fifty-three books that Gandhi is known definitely to have read ("Constipation and Our Civilization," "How Green Was My Valley," "Trips to the Moon," "The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde," "The Greatest Thing in the World"). For Kasturbai, however, there are only eleven entries, three of them mentions by Western writers. Gandhi's wife was neglected in life and seems to have been all but overlooked after death. (Except in Bangalore, where Kasturbai Rd and Mahatma Gandhi Rd come together to form a traffic circle at one corner of Cubbon Park. J.)
'Now and again, a title or an annotation brings Gandhi to life and one can almost hear him inveighing against industrialism, atheism, cities, sex, drink, drugs, or even the use of English in India, or commending handcrafts, godliness, the village and the soil, or self-discipline and abstinence, but most of the time, as one leafs through Vir and Sharma, one's mind boggles at the benumbing crisscrossing of sometimes nearly identical titles and at the vast extent of Gandhiana. One gets the impression that practically everyone who ever spoke to Gandhi and could put pen to paper has written something about him, and that by now his every thought and action has been worked over and preserved by his editors, biographers, and bibliographers.
'How strange, I think, that, of all people, Gandhi, who lived in such starkly simple circumstances, should be so encumbered after death. Perhaps part of the explanation lies in the fact that the recording and preserving of data are still something of a novelty for Hindus, who have in the past traditionally neglected history in favor of speculation, and whose written records, in any event, have rarely survived the ravages of conquerors and climate...Gandhi's contemporaries could themselves scarcely believe in the man of flesh and blood, so what hope is there of ever rediscovering him behind the myths, the legends, the apotheoses?'
That Ved Mehta should ask that question surprises me. Did he never read Gandhi's own account? The one we are reading and discussing now?
Jonathan
anneofavonlea
November 23, 2003 - 12:57 pm
great post, and I am so impressed with the idea of the two roads which form a circle.I guess Kasturbai has been lost to us, when she was probably deserving of more, I wonder whether she would be concerned about that. I hope not.
Anneo
YiLi4
November 23, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Mahatmas are essentially beings who ceaselessly function on unseen planes of ideation mirroring universal states of consciousness. Any individual anywhere who is universal in spirit, non-sectarian in attitude, free from fixation upon place or time, who is truly devoted to universal good and human welfare, may come into the radius of influence of the Brotherhood of Bodhisattvas and their accredited agents in the world."
-- Sri Raghavan Iyer, January, 1980
Sorry I've been away and missed a lot of posts- was intrigued by the heading re theosophy- found this quote on the internet- one item of interest to me in the quote is the use of the buddhist term bodhisattvas- a term that describes one who reaches beyond self-enlightment and dedicates him/herself to the enlightenment of others- often this journey is along the road of Compassion-- but what disturbs me in the quote is the notion I attach to the "accredited agents"....
Malryn (Mal)
November 23, 2003 - 04:12 pm
I wonder what Gandhi would have thought about all the fuss that's been made of what he did and said with so little example in this world that his teachings have been learned and followed or even listened to?
I also wonder if Gandhi ever regarded himself as a saint? It seems to me that he was not just trying to be as "good" as he could; he strived constantly to be "better". It seems to me that he never reached his goal.
With a man like Gandhi who punished himself, it seems to me, if he even thought of meat, sex and all the things he preached against, he could not possibly have considered himself saintly or perfect, could he? His was the road to perfection, I think, and not the reaching of it.
We are of many minds here. For that reason and with respect to all other points-of-view, I'll say that it has been, and is, hard for me to believe any human being is or can be a saint. I find it difficult to think that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and people like them ever would have believed they had reached that status.
I am interested in Gandhi the man, Gandhi the human being, his search for truth and the way he reached his conclusions, as stated in this autobiography.
How did he do this? Were his conclusions and actions fair and just? Were there reasons for people to think he was evil, as Jonathan suggested? Most people are multi-faceted. If there are seven points-of-view which must be considered if one is to achieve real objectivity, are there seven sides to Gandhi which we must consider, too? Would he want us to?
Mal
Ella Gibbons
November 23, 2003 - 04:47 pm
WHAT A GRAND DISCUSSION THANKS TO ALL OF YOU - SUCH FUN – NO MORE THAN THAT – EDUCATIONAL!
I have to ask TOM a few things as you are the only one of us that has lived in India for any length of time. You stated:
” the British never tried to be buddies with the Indians, never treated them as equals and always backed an Englishman when there was a disupute between a Brit and an Indian. The Americans carried things too far, it is all right to be friendly, and to respect the Indians, try to be fair. But Americans tried to be Pals, buddies, and lost the respect of the Indians.”
Well, of course, the British knew how to be “imperial;” – I cannot see Americans being able to order the Indians to do anything. I guess we are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t eh? How does a tourist cope with the situation? Does a polite request get a response?
And, ELOISE, told a wonderful story about her daughter and her husband while they were in India. She stated:
” I don’t feel that a doctor, in India, gives himself the mission and the responsibility to absolutely save lives. First he doesn't’t have the financial means and the PERCEPTION OF DEATH IS SO DIFFERENT from us. It is reality, fatality and nobody can do anything about it. It costs a lot to keep people alive as long as possible”
What can you tell us about the medical profession there? Did the Embassy have their own doctor or did they rely on Indian doctors? What differs about their “perception of death?”
THANKS, GINNY, for that cartoon – yes, both martyrs, you cannot kill them ever!
GLAD TO HAVE YOU BACK, YILI!
WHERE IS MOUNTAINROSE?
I’LL BE AROUND THANKSGIVING, JUST OUT OF TOWN ON MY DAUGHTER’S COMPUTER!
GINNY, have we answered all the questions in the heading? You cannot count on my memory at all, it’s disappeared forever! Shall we put up some more for everyone to think about?
Ella Gibbons
November 23, 2003 - 05:20 pm
Here is Churchill's actual statement about Gandhi:
"QUOTATION: It is ... alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well-known in the East, striding half-naked up the steps of the Viceregal Palace, while he is still organising and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King Emperor.
ATTRIBUTION: Winston Churchill (1874–1965), British statesman, writer. speech, Feb. 23, 1931, Epping, England."
Of course, to Churchill Gandhi was a threat to the Empire, which was everything to him. Churchill served in India and no doubt loved it. Here is a clickable about his service:
Churchill After an education at Harrow and Sandhurst Churchill entered the army in 1895 and embarked on one of the most varied and distinguished careers of the 20th century. He acted as a correspondent for The Daily Telegraph from India and for the Morning Post during the Boer War. His dramatic escape from prison in Pretoria brought him to public attention.
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 23, 2003 - 06:51 pm
Ella, So sorry that I was not clearer. It is a "friend" of my daughter's her name is Marthe, who is in India, Pondichéry with her husband Sourèche. I met them when they visited my daughter's family before they left last year. It seems that after graduation, Sourèche told his parents that he was going to marry a white woman and perhaps never come back.
The health care system in Pondichery is not the best he says, even for the affluent in India, but the care his boy received was adequate, because he could afford it.
Éloïse
Ginny
November 24, 2003 - 05:32 am
My goodness, Ella, that doesn't say much for Mr. Churchill, does it? In our now post game enilghtenment.
now posing as a fakir and to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King Emperor.
Dear me. POSING !?! and EQUAL!?! terms, gee he had no idea what he was up against, did he? What a fascinating study in those few words of cross cultures. As Jonathan said, apparently he had not read Gandhi's book either (Patton read Rommel's). Interesting, and provocative, as always, thank you, Ella, for bringing that here!
Well today we start our last section, much more to say on JONATHAN!! what a post!! More on everything you've said, just ran in to put this here, it's a list of books which influenced Gandhi, sent by a reader of the discussion, many thanks: Books Which Influenced Ganshi.Here's a beginning on this last section: "If the shudras may not wear it [the scared thread], I argued, what right have the other varnas to do so....I had no objection to the thread as such, but the reasons for wearing it were lacking (Chapter VIII).
In this chapter, and in Chapter X, Gandhi mentions his own personal struggle with Caste, a sort of Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and the struggle he had, even in his own Utopian ashram, to eliminate class prejudice.
We mentioned earlier the various castes and the Brahmins, but what IS this "sacred thread," how could you hang KEYS from it, what's going on? What do you know of the sacred thread, why would somebody want Gandhi to wear it, and what difference did it make if he took one "untouchable" family into the ashram and worked along side them? Remember until quite recently, any person touching an Untouchable, had to purify himself with elaborate rituals. What must the impact have been 80 years ago?
more in a minute....
Malryn (Mal)
November 24, 2003 - 08:11 am
"The Sacred Thread is spun by a virgin Brahmana girl and twisted by a Brahmana. The composition of the Sacred Thread is full of symbolism and significance. Its length is ninetysix times as the breadth of the four fingers of a man, which is equal to his height. Each of the four fingers represents one of the four states the soul of a man experiences from time to time, namely, waking, dreaming, dreamless sleep and absolute Brahmanhood (Turiya or the fourth state). The three folds of the cord are also symbolical. They represent the three Gunas (Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas) reality, passion and darkness, out of which the whole universe is evolved. It was done, so that the Sattwaguna or the good quality of reality may predominate in a man, and so he may attain spiritual merits. The three cords remind the wearer that he has to pay off the Three Debts he owes:
1.To the Rishis (ancient seers)
2.To the ancestors
3.To the gods.
"The three cords are tied together by a knot called Brahma-granthi, which symbolises Brahma, Vishnu and Siva (the trinity of gods, Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer). Besides, extra knots are made in the cords to indicate the various Pravaras of a particular family.
"The Acharya (teacher), while investing the student with the Sacred Thread repeats an appropriate Mantra, asking for strength, long-life and illumination for the boy, the boy looking, in the meanwhile, towards the sun. A Brahmachari (student) can put on only one set of the Sacred Thread. A householder is given privilege to wear two, one for himself and one for his wife. There are different methods of wearing the Sacred Thread at different occasions. While performing an auspicious ceremony one should be Upaviti, that is, the Sacred Thread should hang from his left shoulder. At the performance of some inauspicious ceremony one should be Prachnaviti, that is, the Sacred Thread should hang from the right shoulder; and at times he is called Niviti when the Sacred Thread is worn round the neck like a garland."
Source: The Sacred Thread
More
Malryn (Mal)
November 24, 2003 - 08:14 am
Malryn (Mal)
November 24, 2003 - 10:05 am
I just found this in the website where I found information about Samskara and Karamasaya. I love it, and thought of how it relates to Gandhi and how he thought.The Six Mistakes of Man by Cicero
1. The delusion that personal gain is made by crushing others.
2. The tendency to worry about things that cannot be changed or corrected.
3. Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it.
4. Refusing to set aside trivial preferences.
5. Neglecting development and refinement of the mind, and not acquiring the habit of reading and studying.
6. Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.
Ella Gibbons
November 24, 2003 - 12:27 pm
THANKS, MAL – you just answered Ginny’s question. Some religions, such as the Catholic rosary, have such symbols that are used; others do not – is there a difference here?
And what is, if any, the difference between the “ashrams” that Gandhi founded and the communes of the ‘60’s? Did they have the same goals in mind? ”All had their meals in a common kitchen and strove to live as one family”
Were you surprised that the “untouchable” family had a teacher as father? You think of the untouchables as the lowest caste, which they were, but one being a teacher does not seem plausible to me. Why did his presence cause such a storm among the members of the ashram? Had Gandhi lost his influence among the community in the ashram?
There are so many instances in the book of Gandhi describing his fellow Indians and their uncleaniness, their filth – I’m sure this is true, probably it still exists to some extent in India today, but Gandhi never hesitates to comment on this wherever he goes. I want to say to him – ENOUGH, WE KNOW!! But they are your countrymen, you are beloved by them all – must you go on and on about them? In just two pages (384 – 387) we are told of their “rudeness, dirty habits, selfishness and ignorance” – “bathroom was unbearably dirty, the latrines were stinking sinks. To use the latrine one had to wade through urine and excreta or jump over them.”
At times he blames the authorities for this condition and at other times he blames the people for “their thoughtless habits.”
Who is to blame? Both? Did Gandhi ever succeed in teaching the people of India sanitary habits other than those who lived in the ashrams? Or was this possible with the lack of communication in those days? Remember, he did publish a newsletter at one time – did he ever make an effort to teach sanitation in essays he wrote?
Back later –
Jonathan
November 24, 2003 - 01:44 pm
It seems outrageous that anyone could think that Gandhi could be put into that category. But given recent trends in formulating the foreign policy of a superpower, it shouldn't surprise anyone to hear of others who might view their political opponents as 'evil'.
Are we agreed that Gandhi was a genius, even if only on the strength of his supreme talent for creativity in arousing the masses? But inevitably the question comes up, was he perhaps a Hindu first, and after that an Indian? Some Muslims must have felt that way. Jinnah, the defender of Islam, certainly did. For a while he lost interest in Indian politics and returned to England to practice law. That was after Gandhi had returned to India for good, and taken taken control of Congress. And became increasingly religious/moral in outlook, tending increasingly to use the symbols of Hinduism. Fasting unto death, after all, he got from the Jains, as the ideal end of life.
Is it any wonder that Muslims became increasingly concerned about their future in the Ram Raj that Gandhi wished to establish? Heightened concern brought Jinnah back to India. And the rest is history.
Mal, you wonder if Gandhi ever regarded himself as a saint. I don't think so. Several times he mentions being unhappy with his mahatmahood. Have you ever wondered why he was in the habit of tucking his feet under him while sitting in public? Why, in fact, he seems to have preferred sitting? That was meant to discourage the enthusiasm of his worshippers who wished to kneel down to kiss them. He got no satisfaction out of that kind of humility or lessening of human dignity, as he tells us. The need for darshan on the part of his devotees and the duty or political necessity to oblige, on his part, was a problem for him, again, as he tells us in his autobiography.
Somehow I can't forgive Gandhi for falling asleep over his Old Testament...that priceless treasure of religious and historical lore.
Here's a curious thing. Among the three or four items of reading matter, his constant companions in his last days, was a booklet: JEWISH THOUGHTS. (Freedom at Midnight, p35) No doubt it was the one put out in 1917 by Dr J H Hertz, Chief Rabbi of England, and reissued in 1940 'for His Majesty's Jewish sailors, soldiers and airmen', (preface). My little copy, 1940, which I treasure, has an entry in it, of which I wasn't even aware until now. A quotation attributed to Gandhi himself:
"The wanton persecution of a whole race! It is the Godless fury of a dehumanized man." 1938.
Stranger still. In the quick look into the 'spiritual shopping center' of the Hindu temple (F of M, p37), mention is made of a 'ritual strikingly similar to the Jewish Passover'! And earlier in the discussion we got the pictures of the elephants in Kerala, during the Pooram Festival, and I wondered if that had any connection with the Jewish Purim celebration.
More and more it seems like Hinduism really may be the mother of all religions. The experiences of all of us seem to be contained in it. It may well be that Gandhi's greatest legacy will turn out to be his prodding Hinduism into rejuvenation. The way I see it.
Jonathan
kiwi lady
November 24, 2003 - 05:00 pm
It is plausible that an untouchable could have been a teacher. The missionaries educated untouchables in the mission schools.
Carolyn
Ella Gibbons
November 24, 2003 - 07:14 pm
Carolyn, this is something I'm not sure about, but I think it may be true. Once you were born into the caste of an "Untouchable" there was no way out of it? You were forever an Untouchable? Therefore, education meant nothing? I don't know.
Perhaps you are right, JONATHAN, when you state that “more and more it seems like Hinduism really may be the mother of all religions.” In the History of India book I have quoted before, there is an essay by the BHARATIYA JANATA PARTY, which defeated the Indian National Congress party in 1998 and again in 1999. Their philosophy, known as “Hindutva” talks of the great Hindu awakening that is changing the face of Indian politics and society. It further states that the Hindu society has an unquestionable and proud history of tolerance for other faiths and respect for diversity of spiritual experiences. This is reflected in the many different philosophies, religious sects and religious leaders and is not based on any one book, teacher, or doctrine.
In another chapter by Akbar S. Ahmed, it is stated that while Gandhi was a force of unity and identity formation for Hindu India, Jinnah was his counterpart among the Muslim community. “What continues to baffle people is the conversion of Jinnah from a liberal, Anglicised, seemingly secular politician, whose proudest title was Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity and whose early political life was spent fighting for a united India, to the champion of an exclusive Muslim identity.” To summarize - growing militant Hindu extremists, unresponsiveness of the Indian National Congress to Muslim interests, and political demands from grass-roots Muslim groups were the factors that led Jinnah to demand a separate homeland.
Could Gandhi have prevented it? He certainly tried.
There is a critical assessment of Gandhi as the great driving force of Indian nationalism, much too long of an article to go into, but I must quote this: “Gandhi was no plaster saint. Nor did he find lasting and real solutions to many of the problems he encountered. Possibly he did not even see the implications of some of them.”
IS GANDHI EVER HAPPY? DOES HE HOPE TO BE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO PLEASE HIM? In Chapter XIV of Part V, he says:
”It is no exaggeration, but the literal truth, to say that in this meeting with the peasants I was face to face with God , Ahimsa and Truth……..That day in Champaran was an unforgettable event in my life.
Has he met his life’s goal here? Is this what he has been searching for?
TigerTom
November 24, 2003 - 07:18 pm
Ella,
The Embassy in New Delhi has a six bed hospital with
a small operating room that served the Sub-continent:
India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. It had both American
and American Educated Indian Doctors (who came in to the
Embassy on contract basis two or three times a week.
Death: The Indians are just as saddened by Death
as we are. They mourn the deaths of their Children
and old people as we do. They accept death because there
is so much of it around them. The Infant Mortality Rate
is very high and the average life span is about 50 these
days but was 35 when I was first on the subcontinent.
I have seen a woman simply lay down and die in the middle
of a street in Calcutta. She had a baby with her which crawled
around on her body trying to get her attention. People
walked around her as they knew the the municipality would
come to take her body and take care of the baby.
In the backwaters of India, Banladesh (particuarly) and
Pakistan, going in to a Hospital could mean one's life.
The people avoid going in to Hospital unless they are
carried in. Then while they are in the rural Hospital their
family comes along with them and brings the animals.
Patients are give only a handful of Sugar and some bread.
They must provide the rest of their food. So, family is there,
wife builds a fire on the Hospital floor and cooks meals.
Hygene is non-existent. There are many western educated Doctors
who simply give up because they cannot get it through the
heads of the rural people working in the Hospital the concept
of Hygene.
When I was in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan) there were
NO medical facilities we could use, safely. So if one
had an emergency one had to be airlifted to Bangkok to
the U.S. Naval Hospital there. Some didn't make it through
the trip. This is one of the reasons that the Embassy in
New Delhi got the six bed Hospital.
In East Pakistan we had an Embassy Nurse and one British
Doctor in Dacca that was all. The Pakistani Doctors had
not been educated in the West only in East Pakistan which
was not sufficient to be certififed by the State Department
for us to use them.
Tiger Tom
JoanK
November 24, 2003 - 09:23 pm
Presumably, no one but an untouchable would teach untouchables, So, if they wanted an education (and no missionaries were near) there had to be teachers. It would be interesting to know how many did get an education.
Ashrams: again, maybe like communes. Does anyone understand why there were two ashrams in SA (Pheonix and Tolstoy)? Or am I confused.
There is a good discussion in Freedom at Midnight about Gandhi's failed attempts to prevent the partitioning of India into Hindu and Moslem countries. By then, Hindu/moslem relations were really bad (many atrocities had already occured). Gandhi (as in the movie) wanted to give Jinnah the leadership of India, but Nehru and the other Congress leaders would not agree. Gandhi was the only one who forsaw the coming tragedy -- apparently Jinnah and Nehru did not.
It's possible to believe that Jinnah wanted a separate Moslem state, because that was the only way he could get the power he wanted. Similiarly, Nehru may not have wanted to give up power. Or they could both have been influenced by the currents that were causing the overall deterioration of Hindu/Moslem relations. I wonder about that deterioration, and its causes. Presumably related to the coming Independence, but how?
Ginny
November 25, 2003 - 09:18 am
"The time has now come to bring these chapters to a close…
It is not without a wrench that I have to take leave of the reader."
When I read that I felt a wrench, too, the writing style here is so personal, even down to the "motions" per day in dysentery, that we feel an intimacy with this man, dead now for almost 56 years, and an understanding.
Jonathan asks can we all agree he was a genius? I'm not sure we should try to agree. Would Gandhi want us to agree or to each see the truth?
If he's not a genius I hope never to see one.
Passed over in these last chapters, mentioned casually in passing, as is his wont, is a HUGE set of incidents of tremendous importance in the history of India: turning points in Indian history. We may want to leave these to Tom's Freedom at Midnight, but we should mention them, too, since Gandhi did. We can see here Gandhi moving, in his quiet way in the midst of huge passions, crowds and tumult, violence, and upheaval.
The birth of non violence. AND non cooperation.
The birth of his shuttle and loom and campaign to rid the Indian of dependence on foreign made cloth and manufacturers.
The birth of the Salt March and the making of salt.
(the illustration on the left in the heading IS his march to the sea, the Salt March). The birth of Hindu- Muslim cooperation in the Congress.
The atrocities of the Dyer Massacre at Jalianwala Bagh, the disgusting rulings of Amritsar, (both of which caused his separation and non compliance from the British Empire forever) . And the spiritual journey of a seeker the likes of which we will probably never see again.
This morning I reflected if we were reading an autobiography of Christ we would have people who not only did not understand what he said, or what he did, but who disliked Him very much (to the point of crucifying Him) and so finding negative opinions about Gandhi therefore should not come as a surprise.
It is hard for us, here in America where success is measured by how much money you have and how "powerful" you are, to understand a man who deliberately turns aside from pomp and glory and finds value in other things. How does he end his book?
In biding farewell to the reader, for the time being at any rate, I ask him to join with me in prayer to the God of Truth the He may grant me the boon of Ahimsa in mind, word, and deed."
Still seeking, because most religions teach that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I am very glad to have read Gandhi's own words, and I am very grateful for the company and questions and comments of all of you. Reading the context in which he addressed each of the pivotal points in his own life and Indian history, I find his attitude incredibly inspiring, and I find myself thinking of him every time something comes up, it does not matter what it is, I think of him. He never gave up. He never stopped looking at things from his own deep seated beliefs and then trying to turn what he found, around. Look at him with the TWO newspapers. This is not a man, who, faced with opposition, sat in the corner and picked his nails, yes he waited for that still small voice and then he ACTED, note how he acted and what he did. The literally hundreds of people he managed to inspire to help him, alone is exemplary: when he couldn't do something he found somebody who could. That entire story of the spinning wheel almost made me want to weep, it was beautiful, he could not figure out a way to spin cloth. Everything they wore that was fine came from foreign sources, (fascinating on the local mills, too). But he found a widow, Gangabehn, and she, inspired by him, produced the means, which they then altered for their own use, by which he could achieve his goal.
He has got to be one of the worlds great leaders, the entire book is like a primer for leadership, isn't it? XXX happened, I was dismayed, I thought of how it should be, I got YYYY and ZZZ to help, I did QQQ and RRR and it was done. And it was done! And the British Empire went with it. He was mightier than a general on a battlefield, a very very inspiring person, to me. I am so glad we read this book, so easily dismissed because of the diet and body references, but I think the gold is there underneath, for those who want to see it.
That's my own opinion, what's yours? Back in a mo with your own thoughts!
Ginny
November 25, 2003 - 09:57 am
Until Pat can get up our Part V questions in the heading would you all now want to say what your opinion is of Gandhi now and how it differs if it does, from your opinion before you read the book?
Jonathan thank you for that incredible post 464, I want to put that on an HTML page and keep it separate, it's amazing, many thanks.
Did Ved Mahta read Gandhi's own account? I wonder. I bet a LOT of people have not read it and instead have read biographies, some of which, according to my last class, were terrible.
Anneo, I loved that two roads forming a circle, too, but I think, that Kasturbai also wrote a book, we need to find out!
Yi Li, thank you so much for the Iyer statement on the Mahatmas, that's really great. We are glad you are back, and appreciate the definition of bodhisattvas that does seem to describe Gandhi, doesn't it?
What disturbs you about the "Brotherhood of Bodhisattvas and their accredited agents in the world?"
Malryn, I think Gandhi would have understood the "fuss" since in his own lifetime much fuss was made over him by millions of people. I think everybody will see him as they personally will, through their own glass.
Ella and Tom, thank you for that intriguing debate on the British and the Indians!
Malyrn many thanks about the sacred thread, I guess that's what the guy in the photo I put in earlier was wearing! The "four states of the soul, " I like that. And thank you also for the links to Samakara and Karamasaya!
LOVE the Six Mistakes of Man by Cicero, one of these days we need to read Cicero and there is a super new biography out on him, as well. We might try to read Cicero in the original, why not?
Ella, super question on why the presence of the untouchable caused such a problem in the Ashram, what do you all think about that?
this is a good question, too, Ella always the provocateur!
Did Gandhi ever succeed in teaching the people of India sanitary habits other than those who lived in the ashrams?
I don't know the answer to that I would think not. But we're not without that in our own country. I remember my mother's experiences teaching first grade ina small rural school. As the daughter of a doctor, she had cleanliness drummed into her and so, appalled by the dirtiness of the children she sent each one home with a bar of soap and toothbrush and toothpaste, only to be confronted by an angry mother who told her, "I send my children to school for you to learn them, not to smell them."
Good question on whether or not he taught sanitation in his articles, I thought he said he did?
Does anybody know where that reference was?
JONATHAN, is that true on the tucking of feet under him? I did NOT know that!!! Thank you for that! Where did you see that, the Wolpert I still have not been able to finish?
Oh I can forgive Gandhi falling asleep over the OT, anybody who reads it at night might, as they would anything else, sometimes you just can't stay awake for anything.
JONATHAN on the Jewish Thoughts and your OWN copy! WOW!! Oh good speculation on Purim too, the interconnectedness of religions is really something, isn't it?,br>
Carolyn, good point on the untouchable teacher and Ella, yes we have shown that they could change caste (and often attempted to do so by fasting) but often had to change locale too. The woman who helped Gandhi secure the loom, changed caste as he noted.
Ella thank you for your parallel reading of the Ahmed chapter, I think we will have a high old time discussing Jinnah and Gandhi in Freedom at Midnight.
Your quote on Champaran to me says that he saw God for a brief moment face to face, I have a friend who is a priest who PERSISTS in seeing God in everything everybody says to him, so it may be the same type of thing? Not sure.
I don't think he ever met his goal, if he had he would not ask us to pray for him to get it at the very end of the book?
Tom thank you so much for the eyewitness accounts of conditions in India, I can't wait for your discussion you will be an invaluable resource for us there!
Joan, I am so glad you joined us for this discussion, have you enjoyed it?
Wonderful question on the education of the untouchables, from the all over India stats we quoted it would seem not very many.
I don't understand the two ashrams, either (weren't there THREE?)
Thank you for commending us to Freedom at Midnight, I am very excited about that discussion, do you all see in the book (mine has not yet come but I have read it) the photograph of General Dyer?
Good point on Gandhi and the coming tragedy, and he did not take part in the celebrations saying what was there to celebrate, that should have warned people, but apparently it did not.
"It's possible to believe that Jinnah wanted a separate Moslem state, because that was the only way he could get the power he wanted." This is what I keep hearing in my classes.
I think I will try to read Wolpert on Jinnah before the Freedom discussion is over.
Questions coming up!!
ginny
kiwi lady
November 25, 2003 - 10:51 am
I don't think that Gandhi was necessarily a genius as we would describe a genius today. However because of his extraordinary perception of the world around him and his perserverance he was able to undertake and successfully complete a huge task. He was no dummy of course but genius - no I don't think so. Spiritual giant - yes!
Carolyn
Malryn (Mal)
November 25, 2003 - 11:15 am
GINNY, what I said had a qualifier on it.
"I wonder what Gandhi would have thought about all the fuss that's been made of what he did and said with so little example in this world that his teachings have been learned and followed or even listened to?"
I think it's a pathetic shame that the teachings of people like Gandhi, who are peaceful and non-violent, are cast aside in favor of war and weapons of destruction that tear down everything peacemakers believe in.
Mal
Jonathan
November 25, 2003 - 12:05 pm
Tiger Tom's first-hand accounts of bureaucratic difficulties, the Hindu personality, and the dismal street scenes in Calcutta, certainly add some realism to the picture of India most of us have. Along with everything else that one hears about that strange place, it makes one wonder at the audacity of anyone, including avatars, who arrives with a yen or a mission to reform.
That was Gandhi's aim, if one can believe the second entry in the first volume of 'The Complete Works'. It quotes from a speech Gandhi made to his high-school class just before setting out for England:
'I hope that some of you will follow in my footsteps, and after you return from England you will work wholeheartedly for big reforms.'
That makes these first chapters of Part V so ineteresting. His zeal in setting things right in South Africa has made him known world-wide. Along the way railway station-masters, police superintendants, judges, colonial secretarys in London, all have received his communications. Is it any wonder that some are made a little nervous by his arrival in India in 1915? His mentor, Prof Gokhale advises him to restrain from activism for at least a year while he looks around. The Governor in Bombay invites him in for a little chat. (What fun to read between the lines when Gandhi writes.)
And much to his disappointment, Gandhi's membership bid at the Sevants of India Society is black-balled. He takes a chapter to put the best face on that. No doubt some members of the Society felt it would be impossible to work with him, or, in all probability, under him.
Strangely enough, Gandhi never seems to have had any big plans about the future. The immediate situation challenged him. Throughout his Autobiography he quite happily acknowledges in, so many words, that his 'mission' was constantly under development. And when complacency set in, why, there was always some minor irritation while travelling third class, that would get him going. Like running a slight fever at the Virangam customs. He gets caught up in a little health inspection trap...he's inconvenienced into a ready-made issue, and immediately they are hearing about it at Viceroy House in Delhi.
Really!!! One would think that a saint would have a somewhat higher irritation threshhold.
Jonathan
kiwi lady
November 25, 2003 - 12:06 pm
Mal there is no money in a peace agenda! No money for the armaments manufacturers etc. There is also no gain for power mad rulers in a peace agenda. I think that our country has gone as far as it can go in their foreign policy. We use our army mostly for peacekeeping and reconstruction work. Our army medics are often sent to the pacific islands on humanitarian missions to do eye surgery or dentistry. We do mine and weapons disposal. However we have gone into active service in cases of mass genocide overseas ie East Timor and Bosnia etc. We have a nuclear free policy which has not endeared us to the USA. However this is what the majority of us want. Sometimes its a real blessing to be a small fish in a big pond. Half the world does not even know we exist!
Carolyn
Malryn (Mal)
November 25, 2003 - 03:46 pm
I hear what you're saying, CAROLYN.
JONATHAN, you made me laugh.
I want to say that my comments are based on Gandhi's autobiography and what little I can find on the web. I don't have access to other well-thought-out and well-informed material about him and what he did.
I think there's a very strong tendency in human beings to fall in love with and worship the messenger and ignore and forget what the message is. And I think that's the last thing Gandhi wanted.
He had all the fame ( and notoriety in some circles ) that a Hollywood star might have. He needed that national and worldwide fame to accomplish the reforms he was trying to make, but it was not for personal gain and adulation that he made sure he won this kind of recognition.
Not everybody knows that.
You say "Gandhi" to some people, and they say, "Who's that?" Then, "Oh, yeah, he was the weird yogi who went around in that Indian underwear all the time, wasn't he?" They don't say, "He was the one who fought the British Empire non-violently and achieved independence for Indians through peaceful means." They don't say it because they don't know it. They recognize the messenger, but they don't know the message. The same is true for Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.
In a way, that billboard campaign with Gandhi's picture so prominently displayed with a quote from him is a very good thing. I wonder if the message would mean more, though, if it were on a blank, black billboard without Gandhi's picture on it?
Gandhi became an icon in his own time. What that icon stands for all too often isn't remembered or known. That's the pity of it, and that's what Gandhi, if he were able to know what's going on today, would bemoan. He was selling something else; something far better and different from the imperfect human he tried so hard to improve all his life through self-discipline and self-denial, the human being who was himself.
Mal
kiwi lady
November 25, 2003 - 04:59 pm
Mal you are correct in saying sometimes people do tend to worship the messenger and not practice the message. I agree with you 100%.
Carolyn
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 25, 2003 - 05:14 pm
My perception of the greatness of Gandhi was reinforced by discussing his autobiography. He didn't disappoint me. I had not expected him to be a perfect parent or a perfect husband especially if he was undertaking such a momentous task as freeing India of colonialism. I don't think he wrote the book to justify himself in the eyes of the world, but more to verify if his own mission was really what was asked of him by his inner spiritual voice that a huge injustice was being done to one quarter of the world's population.
I don't think there was another man who ever lived that did as much for his country as Gandhi. It doesn't matter one bit if they were poorer after they became independent. Their perception of death, hygiene, illness is incomprehensible to us who spend so much time and money trying to avoid any kind of discomfort and trying very hard to stay looking young and healthy in order to live a long long time. To Indians, time on earth is but one brief passage. Gandhi disregarded comfort, luxury, hunger not to bringing attention to himself, but to teach a lesson.
He saw the big picture. He perceived exactly how he was going to reach his goal and the way he did it was right on target. In that sense he was a spiritual genius, not a genius by Western standards.
I enjoyed everybody's posts and I hope we will still be posting in the coming book "Freedom at Midnight". I rather like the idea that it reads like a novel. Gandhi was not a brilliant writer, but a brilliant man.
Éloïse
Ginny
November 25, 2003 - 05:48 pm
Gosh what wonderful thoughts today, can't wait to dig into them and I agree Eloise, we must all repair to Freedom, you'll all appreciate the differnt prose then!! hahahaha Can't wait to hear some of the history behind what we're doing here!
Well Pat can't put up the questions unless she gets them, can she? Hahahaha Sorry, was called away.
Here are some of the earlier questions in addition to the one on what do you think of Gandhi now that you read his book? What experience did you have of him prior to reading his words? Did anything surprise you?
I will say that prior to taking my class at Oxford, on the Raj in India, I pretty much was in a fog about it, a sort of romantic Raj fog, I loved the British movies, anything to do with the Raj. I thought them impossibly romantic. I did not know about Dyer or Amritsar or South Africa or anything else, it's amazing to live this long in ignorance.
I had heard of Gandhi of course, who has not, and had no clue whatsoever about him, just like I now have heard of Jinnah and really know nothing about HIM. One of the prerequisites for the course was to watch the movie Gandhi which I had never seen and I was just transfixed and then bought his book at Oxford thinking I might read it some time but somehow we all ended up reading it together, what a story it IS, it just blows me away for some reason. I did not expect the depth of devotion and spirituality I guess, I did not know who he was and I may still not but I think the Seeker in all of us can recognize another.
hahaha Jonathan on the temper level of saints, I don't know, I thought they were reported to be noticeably irascible? Hahahaah I don't have a clue.
Here are some other points in addition to Joan's good question on the ashrams raised earlier which I don't have a clue about:
Sjt. Keshavrao Deshpande, who was a contemporary and a close friend of mine in England…(Chapter IV). What does Sjt mean?
Chapter V: "The woes of third class passengers are undoubtedly due to the high-handedness of railway authorities. But the rudeness, dirty habits, selfishness and ignorance of the passengers themselves are no less to blame. The pity is that they often do not realize that they are behaving ill, dirtily or selfishly. They believe that everything they do is in the natural way. All this may be traced to the indifference toward them of us 'educated' people." Who does Gandhi blame here ultimately for the dirty and selfish behavior of the peasants? Is there any evidence that he tried to do something about it? (Ella)
What is a pukka house (XVIII)
Ok let me stop here a minute and talk about the Kumbha Fair?
In Chapters VIII and IX Gandhi speaks about going to the Kumbha fair.
the Kumbha Fair (Kumbha Mela) is organized to celebrate the achievement of the pitcher of nectar (noble ideas). Thousands of years ago, when human history was in its first phase, perhaps a fierce battle of existence was fought between good and evil forces. The pitcher was the final outcome of the struggle. Later the great sages gave it a mythological basis to make it understandable to the common man.
One of the most major fairs in India, Kumbha Mela, takes place every three years at Haridwar, Allhabad, Naskik and Ujjain alternatively. The "Purna Kumbha " arrives after twelve years. Millions of Hindus feel even today there is probably nothing holier than a "Kunbha-Snan"-or a dip in the holy waters at the time of the Kunbha.
more….
Ginny
November 25, 2003 - 06:12 pm
That's a sea of humanity up there, isn't it? And it's at that festival that Gandhi mentioned how the almost worship of the people is burdening to him.
Continuing with the questions, what are yours? I often find the members of a discussion have better questions than we can ever think up!
What is a hartal (End of Chapter XXX)
"I contended that if the Khalifat question…" (Chapter XXXVI). What is the Khalifat question? Do you understand the implications of what Gandhi is talking about?
"It was here that I first used the expression 'Himalayan Miscalculation, ' which obtained such a wide currency afterwards." (Chapter XXXIII). To what is Gandhi referring here?
<brt> What is What is a ryot (Chapter XIV) Why do you suppose Gandhi insisted on traveling third class always despite its deplorable conditions? Sometimes he could not even sit down.
Having finished the book, do you understand now why the fasting of one man moved so many hundreds? If so, how would you explain that to somebody who has not read the book ?
"There was hardly a man present in that assembly but had some article of British manufacture on his person." (Chapter XXXVI). Can Gandhi's method of dress be understood in a larger context? In fact, do you find Gandhi's dress, food, and habits consistent with his stated beliefs or in contrast to them?
How would you describe Gandhi to somebody who had never heard of him in one sentence?
JoanK
November 25, 2003 - 06:37 pm
One thing the pictures of the fair brought home to again was the sheer number of people in India. I remember seeing a movie of someone climbing a mountain in India, and there was a huge crowd everywhere -- every street was like our subway at rush hour, just on a normal day, and even the top of the mountain was crowded.
One thing the beginning of Freedom at Midnight is doing for me is giving me a clearer picture of the sheer variety of peoples, cultures, etc. of India. I understand better some of Gandhi's travels. Some of the things he saw in his own country must have been almost as strange to him as they were to us. But wherever he goes, he seems to accumulate crowds of friends at once, even before he becomes famous.
On Gandhi: I had read the book many years ago and been fascinated by him. This reminded me of why, and reawakened some interests I had forgotten about. While reading the book was not new to me, being able to discuss it at so many levels with so many interested, bright people was and it was GREAT.
I'm not sure it's important whether Gandhi was a genius, he was obviously very bright in Western terms, as shown by his ability to absorb information and create his own philosophy. More important was his ability to take the deepest ideals of humans, and apply them to his political goals. He gave us a vision of what our political community could be. Even if we judge (as perhaps we must) that in the long run that vision failed, it is still worth hanging on to and incorporating in our own lives. I hope we can take a little of the best of Gandhi with us.
Malryn (Mal)
November 25, 2003 - 07:53 pm
It was only when I had learnt to reduce myself to zero that I was able to evolve the power of Satyagraha in South Africa.
Nonviolence
I have been a 'gambler' all my life. In my passion for finding truth and in relentlessly following out my faith in nonviolence, I have counted no stake too great. In doing so I have erred, if at all, in the company of the most distinguished scientist of any age and any clime.
I learnt the lesson of nonviolence from my wife, when I tried to bend her to my will. Her determined resistance to my will, on the one hand, and her quiet submission to the suffering my stupidity involved, on the other, ultimately made me ashamed of myself and cured me of my stupidity in thinking that I was born to rule over her and, in the end, she became my teacher in nonviolence.
The doctrine that has guided my life is not one of inaction but of the highest action.
I must not...flatter myself with the belief--nor allow friends...to entertain the belief that I have exhibited any heroic and demonstrable nonviolence in myself. All I can claim is that I am sailing in that direction without a moment's stop.
Character of Nonviolence
Nonviolence is the law of the human race and is infinitely greater than and superior to brute force.
Individuals or nations who would practice nonviolence must be prepared to sacrifice (nations to last man) their all except honour. It is, therefore, inconsistent with the possession of other people's countries, i.e., modern imperialism, which is frankly based on force for its defence.
The only thing lawful is nonviolence. Violence can never be lawful in the sense meant here, i.e., not according to man-made law but according to the law made by Nature for man.
Religious Basis
My claim to Hinduism has been rejected by some, because I believe and advocate nonviolence in its extreme form. They say that I am a Christian in disguise. I have been even seriously told that I am distorting the meaning of the Gita, when I ascribe to that great poem the teaching of unadulterated nonviolence. Some of my Hindu friends tell me that killing is a duty enjoined by the Gita under certain circumstances. A very learned shastri only the other day scornfully rejected my interpretation of the Gita and said that there was no warrant for the opinion held by some commentators that the Gita represented the eternal duel between forces of evil and good, and inculcated the duty of eradicating evil within us without hesitation, without tenderness.
I must be dismissed out of considerations. My religion is a matter solely between my Maker and myself. If I am a Hindu, I cannot cease to be one even though I may be disowned by the whole of the Hindu population. I do however suggest that nonviolence is the end of all religions.
Hinduism's Unique Contribution
Nonviolence is common to all religions, but it has found the highest expression and application in Hinduism. (I do not regard Jainism or Buddhism as separate from Hinduism).
Hinduism believes in the oneness not of merely all human life but in the oneness of all that lives. Its worship of the cow is, in my opinion, its unique contribution to the evolution of humanitarianism. It is a practical application of the belief in the oneness and, therefore, sacredness of all life. The great belief in transmigration is a direct consequence of that belief. Finally, the discovery of the law of Varnashrama is a magnificent result of the ceaseless search for truth.
The Koran and Nonviolence
Some Muslim friends tell me that Muslims will never subscribe to unadulterated nonviolence. With them, they say, violence is as lawful and necessary as nonviolence. The use of either depends upon circumstances. It does not need Koranic authority to justify the lawfulness of both. That is the well-known path the world has traversed through the ages. There is no such thing as unadulterated violence in the world. But I have heard it from many Muslim friends that the Koran teaches the use of nonviolence. It regards forbearance as superior to vengeance. The very word Islam means peace, which is nonviolence. Badshahkhan, a staunch Muslim who never misses his namaz and Ramzan, has accepted out and out nonviolence as his creed. It would be no answer to say that he does not live up to his creed, even as I know to my shame that I do not one of kind, it is of degree. But, argument about nonviolence in the Holy Koran is an interpolation, not necessary for my thesis.
No Matter of Diet
Ahimsa is not a mere matter of dietetics, it transcends it. What a man eats or drinks matters little; it is the self-denial, the self-restraint behind it that matters. By all means practice as much restraint in the choice of the articles of your diet as you like. The restraint is commendable, even necessary, but it touches only the fringe of ahimsa. A man may allow himself a wide latitude in the matter of diet and yet may be a personification of ahimsa and compel our homage, if his heart overflows with love and melts at another's woe, and has been purged of all passions. On the other hand a man always over-scrupulous in diet is an utter stranger to ahimsa and pitiful wretch, if he is a slave to selfishness and passions and is hard of heart.
Road to Truth
My love for nonviolence is superior to every other thing mundane or supramundane. It is equaled only by my love for Truth, which is to me synonymous with nonviolence through which and which alone I can see and reach Truth.
No Cover for Cowardice
My nonviolence does not admit of running away from danger and leaving dear ones unprotected. Between violence and cowardly flight, I can only prefer violence to cowardice. I can no more preach nonviolence to a coward than I can tempt a blind man to enjoy healthy scenes. Nonviolence is the summit of bravery.
Source: Gandhi on Nonviolence
Ginny
November 26, 2003 - 05:44 am
OH wonderful quotes Malryn and thoughts Joan, I want to look at them in depth, but first to ask you all, now, originally we had thought to do and were scheduled to do Freedom at Midnight FIRST and then Gandhi. And then when reading Freedom and getting the whole picture and it's very complicated, we thought no no we need to know what Gandhi was thinking, in that way we thought we might be able to then move thru the world's stage and all those larger than life characters and events, grounded by what he thought.
In that way we sort of become one with him, as we do understand (or we have tried to) where he's coming from.
Now today I'm wondering if you think that was the right order? (If not there's nothing we can do about it now) but what you think there? I kind of like the difference in prose and I think maybe if we had read Freedom first some of us might not have finished Gandhi?
What do you think, thank you Pat for the questions in the heading, more on your own thoughts....
Ginny
November 26, 2003 - 05:56 am
I also want to say in resonse to Joan's remark on the sheer numbers, that what impressed me the most in watching all these movies is what appears to be the numbers of people and the propensity of them to listen to each other. Maybe when you have those numbers you learn to listen I don't know, but it's very striking in the movies, even the 2002 movies, they seem to have an open mind to what people are saying, I dunno maybe it's me but that's the way I have viewed it, so far.
more...
Lou2
November 26, 2003 - 07:37 am
The Gandhi Reader: A Sourcebook of His Life and Writings, edited by Homer A. Jack. This weekend I found this book and have been fascinated with the reading… I’d like to share with you all some of what it has to say…
From Hind Swaraj or Indian Home Rule… about which Gandhi says: “It teaches the gospel of love in place of that of hate. It replaces violence with self-sacrifice. It pits soul force against brute force.”
Millions will always remain poor…
>The more we indulge our passions the more unbridled they become…
… happiness is largely a mental condition... A man is not necessarily happy because he is rich or unhappy because he is poor.
The tendency of the Indian civilization is to elevate the moral being, that of the Western civilization is to propagate immorality.
“Those that take the sword shall perish by the sword." With us the proverb is that professional swimmers will find a watery grave.
…anarchy under Home Rule were better than orderly foreign rule.
Lou
Lou2
November 26, 2003 - 07:39 am
There is so much in this book that touches on many of the topics we’ve been discussing… But from the 200 pages I’ve read, I think the rules for Satyagraha Ashram are a great summary for many of Gandhi’s philosophies.
It was required that to live in the ashram you must take these vows:
Vow of truth: Here truth as it is conceived means that we may have to rule our life by this law of truth at any cost.
Doctrine of Ahimsa: Literally speaking, Ahimsa means “non-killing”. But to me it has a world of meaning and takes me into realms much higher, infinitely higher. It really means that you may not offend anybody; you may not harbor an uncharitable thought, even in connection with one who may consider himself to be your enemy. The one who follows this doctrine there is no room for an enemy.
Vow of Celibacy
Vow of the Control of the Palate
Vow of Non-thieving: …that Nature produces enough for our wants from day to day; and if only every took enough for himself and nothing more there would be no pauperism in this world, there would be no man dying of starvation.
Vow of Swadeshi: We are departing from one of the sacred laws of our being when we leave our neighborhood and go somewhere else to satisfy our wants.
Vow of Fearlessness: I would suggest to you that there in only One whom we have to fear: that is God. When we fear God, then we shall fear no man….
Vow Regarding the “Untouchables”: It is, to my mind, a curse that has come to us; and as long as that curse remains with us, so long I think we are bound to consider that every affliction in the sacred land is a proper punishment for the indelible crime that we are committing.
Education Through the Vernaculars: In order to solve the problem of language in India, we in this Ashram must make it a point to learn as many Indian vernaculars as possible.
Vow of Khaddar
Religious Use of Politics: …in our Ashram every child is taught to understand the political institutions of our country and to know how the country is vibrating with new emotions, with new aspirations, with new life.
Lou
kiwi lady
November 26, 2003 - 07:44 am
"Millions will always remain poor" - thats a cop out in my opinion and is typical of the fatalistic attitude of mind so prevalent in India. I was told that some Hindu's today still believe that the poor are poor because of some evil they did in a previous life.
Lou2
November 26, 2003 - 07:46 am
I really appreciate that we discussed Gandhi first... I read Freedom at Midnight first and kept looking at the biography for answers and realized it ended long before FaM began. Guess I'm just very timeline oriented... first things first.
I hadn't realized just how ignorant I was about India and Gandhi until I began these books. This has been an incredible education!! Thanks to each of you for your insightful illuminating posts.
Lou
Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2003 - 08:23 am
Definitions:
HARTAL -- Suspending work, closing shops, especially in political protest.
RYAT -- Peasant or cultivator of the soil
PUKKA same as PUCKA -- Subtantial, real, fixed, sure, specifically of buldings made of brick and mortar.
Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2003 - 08:39 am
"When, on November 24, 1919, the Hindu, Swami Shradhanand, ascended the pulpit of the Jama Masjid, at Delhi, and addressed the people, the precedent was described in the Mohammedan press in India as the most remarkable event in recent Islamic history. Then in December Gandhi was elected President of the Khalifat Conference at Delhi. It was about this time that the political catchword, 'Allahu Akbar and Om (the mystic Hindu formula) are one name,' began to be repeated everywhere, and the Mussulmans, to appease Hindu sentiment, forsook the slaying of kine. This was only the beginning of Gandhi's association with the Moslem extremists. At a later stage he became so far the champion of Islam as to make civil obedience to the Government of India contingent upon the rectification of the Treaty of Sèvres. Gandhi, of course, was morally entitled to throw his whole force into the Islamic movement so long as his belief in the righteousness of the Turk's cause was sincere. To his critics, however, he appeared to be backing a cause which he must know to be wrong, out of political expediency.
"What conceivable traffic can there be between the apostle of gentleness,—the liberator of his own people,—and the truculent Turk, that he should join in a campaign to perpetuate a régime of repression like the Osmanli's? But Gandhi was quite frank about his position. He did not pretend to be interested in the Turk. As for the subject races, he still believed, in spite of the Turk's record of massacre-made majorities, that Christians, Arabs, and Jews might enjoy their birthright and remain autonomous within the Ottoman Empire, under the protection of guaranties. 'By helping the Mohammedans of India,' he said, 'at a critical moment of their history, I want to buy their friendship.' And so long as he believed in their wrongs, it was a perfectly straight deal. The Hindu-Moslem Entente was the first essential in Indian nationalism."
Source:
The Atlantic Monthly, July, 1922, Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 130, No.1;p.105-114
Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2003 - 08:46 am
"When I met Mr. Gandhi, I suggested that it was idle to stir up violence in the heart and to forbid violence by the hand. But he regarded me pityingly, as a materialist groping in the outer darkness yet with the embracing sympathy which he extends to all creatures. He believed that it was possible—possible in the spiritual East. And I knew that he was sincere."
This is quoted from the article in the
Atlantic Monthly which I have linked in my previous post and here. This article gives a look at the attitude of people about Gandhi in 1922 which I believe is important to this discussion.
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2003 - 08:52 am
For a man who preached that it was necessary to rid oneself of passion in order to practice nonviolence,
Gandhi certainly stirred up a lot of passion in the minds of Indians and his opponents, didn't he?
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2003 - 09:07 am
THE AMRITSAR MASSACRE. Gen. Reginald Dyer, aiming to terrorize the populace, ordered his Gurkha troops to fire on an unarmed assembly caught inside a walled garden until their ammunition was exhausted; 379 persons were killed and 1,200 left wounded. Gandhi (April 18) suspended his civil disobedience (satvagraha) campaign, calling it a “Himalayan miscalculation.” Mounting agitation throughout India followed, aggravated by belated and mild official censure of Dyer's action.
"Let us now see what that Himalayan miscalculation was. Before one can be fit for the practice of civil disobedience one must have rendered a willing and respectful obedience to the State laws. For the most part we obey such laws out of fear of the penalty for their breach, and this holds good particularly in respect of such laws as do not involve a moral principle. For instance, an honest, respectable man will not suddenly take to stealing, whether there is a law against stealing or not, but this very man will not feel any remorse for failure to observe the rule about carrying head-lights on bicycles after dark.
"Indeed it is doubtful whether he would even accept advice kindly about being more careful in this respect. But he would observe any obligatory rule of this kind, if only to escape the inconvenience of facing a prosecution for a breach of the rule. Such compliance is not, however, the willing and spontaneous obedience that is required of a satyagrahi. A satyagrahi obeys the laws of society intelligently and of his own free will, because he considers it to be his sacred duty to do so. It is only when a person has thus obeyed the laws of society scrupulously that he is in a position to judge as to which particular rules are good and just and which unjust and iniquitous. Only then does the right accrue to him of the civil disobedience of certain laws in well-defined circumstances. My error lay in my faliure to observe this necessary limitation. I had called on the people to launch upon civil disobedience before they had thus qualified themselves for it, and this mistake seemed to me of Himalayan magnitude. As soon as I entered the Kheda district, all the old recollections of the Kheda Satyagraha struggle came back to me, and I wondered how I could have failed to perceive what was so obvious. I realized that before a people could be fit for offering civil disobedience, they should thoroughly understand its deeper implications. That being so, before restarting civil disobedience on a mass scale, it would be necessary to create a band of well-tried, pure-hearted volunteers who thoroughly understood the strict conditions of satyagraha. They could explain these to the people, and by sleepless vigilance keep them on the right path."
Gandhi, Part V
Ann Alden
November 26, 2003 - 09:30 am
Sorry to have abandoned this discussion lately but I have some sort of virus, maybe pneumonitis, for which, the antibiotic is making me feel punk. I have read the last 49 posts and so enjoyed the many impressions that are here. What a wonderful discussion! The internet has made so much available to us and researching Gandhi is an endless task.
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!
JoanK
November 26, 2003 - 12:23 pm
I definitely feel that we did the right thing to read Gandhi first. It is a much harder read than Freedom at Midnight (which is a page turner) but one that took us to a level that I don't think we would have reached with just Freedom. I hope we can maintain tha deep level of discussion.One thing,it made me really CARE about what happens in India Not that I wouldn't have cared about the thousands of people killed, but now it is personal to me, in a way it wouldn't have been without this immersure in Gandhi. It gives us a point of view -- we will surely be looking at what happened partly from Gandhi's viewpoint. This is not all good. I believe that modern Indians feel that some of his beliefs were harmful to India (his idea of economy for instance) and we mustn't get so partison that we are not open to these ideas.
I've read about half of Freedom, and Gandhi is seen there as old and ineffectual, having lost his hold on the Indian people. We needed to see what he did, before we witness its (?) decay.
JoanK
November 26, 2003 - 12:31 pm
KIWI LADY: I'm not sure that the Hindu belief that poverty is due to misconduct in a prior life is that different from the widely held view in America that it is the poor's fault that they are poor and so they deserve it. Having worked in an agency that is supposed to provide services to poor people, I met this every day. When I told one official that the average income of families in subsidized housing was $4000 a year, I was told "They aren't contributing anything. We should kick them out".
Jonathan
November 26, 2003 - 01:20 pm
Kasturbai had simply tried persuading her husband to taste her 'sweet wheaten porridge', on a day when he had decided to forgo lunch, after having already missed his breakfast.
And so, Gandhi tells his readers, began a chain of events in the spring of 1919, beginning with his laying at death's door as a consequence of giving in to temptation, and ending with the Jallianwala Bagh massacre and the massacre of the policemen at Chauri Chaura by the angry mob, and finally with a horrified Gandhi agonising over what his experiment with Satyagraha had wrought. Agonising until it rankled in his breast, and he remorsefully wonders how he can free himself 'from that subtlest of temptations, the desire to serve which still holds me.' (p455). Did it seem to him perhaps that he was holding a tiger by the tail? That non-violence was the first casualty in a Satyagraha campaign?
Ginny has reminded us several times of the significance of Gen Dyer's blundering military action in Amritsar, in April, 1919. It must seem like we're reluctant to discuss it. Doesn't Gandhi seem just as reluctant to talk about it in his Autobiography?
The opportunity to do a service, his 'intense eagerness to take up the Satyagraha fight' (455), had given Gandhi a renewed desire to live. Protesting the Rowlatt Acts began with his call for a day of national prayer and fasting (the religious pretext for hartal: a strike). In the days that followed things got out of hand with rioting and bloodshed. Gandhi's movements were restricted. More rioting. Gen Dyer, whether 'deranged', as Prof Wolpert has it (not in his bio of G, but in an earlier book, on the subject), or whether caught up in an atmosphere of fear and panic, or, more likely, as a commander enforcing martial law, in any case, committing the act that provided Indian nationalists with more ammunition than he had expended on that hapless crowd.
Writing about it five years after the event, Gandhi seems somewhat evasive. But what was there to say? Admit a Himalayan error in calling on the people to protest? No. Admit an error in thinking that they had understood his message of Satyagraha.
Richard Attenborough's 'In Search of Gandhi' is a fine book on the making of the movie. The Jallianwalla Bagh massacre was, he says, 'with perhaps the exception of the assassination, the most traumatic sequence in the entire film.' R A's understanding of the context of the events is interesting:
'At the first National Congress Conference Gandhi attended he was content merely to act as a party worker, satisfying himself by sticking stamps on circulars. However, at the Lahore Conference in 1917, with a speech of such originality and force it took the members by storm, he established himself not only as a prominent figure within the Congress Party, but as one committed to achieving India's independence.
'The first important move towards this end was his declaration of a national day of prayer and fasting on 6 April 1919, a national strike in other words, as perhaps the realists would describe the event. It was a demonstration covering the whole country in order to focus attention on the cause and it was completely successful. It brought India to a standstill, and Gandhiji, not for the first time, was put in prison.
It was only a few days later that the most cataclysmic event of all took place in the north-west of India in the holy city of the Sikhs, Amritsar. General Dyer ordered Indian troops to fire upon a crowd of 15,000 Indians attending a public meeting in the Jallianwala Bagh, resulting in 379 killed and 1,137 injured - men, women and children. It is true that, on his appointment as commanding officer of the troops in that district, the general had issued an order that there should be no public meetings. It is true that this meeting was held in defiance of that order, although it is questionable as to whether the majority of those gathered in the Bagh (garden) were aware of the proclamation.
'...There followed a short time later the tragedy of Chauri Chaura. Obviously, whenever a form of protest is unleashed, however peaceful its intentions may be, there always remains the risk of possible violence and this in fact occurred. What started as a peaceful protest resulted in the massacre of twenty-two Indian policemen by a mob who, having set the police station on fire, hacked the policemen to pieces as they emerged from the burning building.
'Gandhiji was profoundly shocked, and in despair. He demanded from his fellow Congressmen the cessation of all protest activity and the end of non-cooperation with British authority. He was resisted vigorously, not only by a number of the leaders but by many of the party workers throughout the country, and Gandhiji resorted to a device which he used on a number of occasions during his life - that of fasting. He undertook a fast unto death until all co-operation with the British was restored and there was an end to any form of protest. This he achieved.' p95-96.
On the making of the film of Gandhi's life, on deciding what to include and what to leave out, Attenborough has this to say:
'...there are whole aspects of the story which, after much discussion, Gerry (Gerald Henley, scriptwriter) and I had already decided to omit for reasons of length. There was the question of Gandhiji's relationship with his four children, culminating in the tragedy of Harilal, the oldest son, denouncing his father, becoming Muslim, and arriving at his mother's deathbed drunk. There was also the question, which so many detractors and commentators have blown up out of all proportion, regarding Gandhiji's testing of the vow of brahmacharya in the latter years of his life. I personally believe, as a result of many discussions with those who knew him, that he never broke his somemn undertaking in this respect.
'Neither have I gone into the levels of debate in relation to Gandhi's 'experiment with truth': his search for the truth, his attempt to understand the meaning of the Infinite, as he put it, to see God face to face - his conviction that truth was God and therefore God was truth - his broad social concerns and his advocacy of a constructive programme for the encouragement of village industry; his fight for the rights of women; his determination to eradicate untouchability, and above all his ultimate goal to alleviate the cruel poverty which spanned the Indian subcontinent. Poverty, he said, is the worst form of violence.
'Gerry and I discussed and deliberated hour after hour, day after day. We eventually arrived at the conclusion that the form and line our film should take should be to follow Gandhiji's own life, and concentrate upon those events, circumstances and relationships which touched directly upon his existence, setting aside all others, no matter how momentous, which did not directly affect him....We were attempting to discover, and then dramatise, the spirit of this extraordinary man.'
An aside: last week, watching the 'Kennedys', I somehow made a connection with Gandhi, when someone commenting about RFK's appeal at the end, that it came as a result of his 'connecting with the pain of the world', while he was campaignign among the poor and underpriviledged. Did anyone else feel that way?
Jonathan
MountainRose
November 27, 2003 - 03:16 am
that the world and humanity being what it is, his methods would not work all the time. It's like a game of chess where one has to know his opponent and use the proper strategy, and the British, in spite of all the things they did wrong in their "empire" were basically a decent people. The nazis in Germany were NOT. Neither was Stalin or Pol Pot, or Saddam for that matter. And I believe, depending on the opponent, wisdom needs to be used----sometimes a peaceable stance can be used successfully, as Gandhi did, and sometimes a very aggressive stance needs to be used, as was used in WWII. But it's a razor's edge, because in becoming aggressive we can often lose sight of our goal, which is to get rid of the destructive element and settle back into peaceful coexistence.
I do, believe that the human race in general has been very quick to fight wars and kill, where sometimes other methods might have worked if we had the proper mindset and proper intention, and if we had been educated as well regarding peace as we are regarding war. And so we need to develop that sort of peaceable style and know when to use it. But there will always be tyrants, who are NOT civilized, who will break every treaty and cause endless destruction unless they are stopped, and if that means giving my life in a war, then so be it. I lost half my family in WWII as a German, and even if it had been my own life, it would have been worth it to stop that monster in our midst. And such monsters will continue to exist, and exist in this day and age---and NO, GWB is NOT one of them by a long shot.
Also, after WWII was fought and won, the U.S., being the great country that it is, neither occupied permanently nor built an "empire". Instead, the U.S. helped the defeated nations to get back on their feet and prosper. It was a job well done, with honor.
I did receive an e-mail from Arun Gandhi with regard to my question, but it was very unsatisfactory, although polite. I also think his institute is necessary to teach the ways of peace, but I also think that, being humans who make mistakes, are ignorant, short sighted, selfish, greedy, and sometimes downright evil, peace is not always possible. It is a chimera to believe otherwise, and not to step in where deliberate evil is going on and innocent people are dying is evil itself. In fact, I believe it's in Dante's Inferno where there is a special place in hell for those who refuse to look evil in the eye and allow it to continue.
And I thank God most of all for the United States of America. With all its faults and shortcomings, and mistakes that have been made by frail humans, it is to my mind the most honorable country that I know with mostly good intentions.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU ALL!!!
Ginny
November 27, 2003 - 06:48 am
Thank you all for those marvelous substantive submissions! While reading last night I found in Wolpert's India an account of the Dyer massacre which will chill your blood, I'll bring it to the table tomorrow, and if you celeberate Thanksgiving today, I wish you a very happy day and if you don't, I wish you a very happy day anyway, we are very thankful for all of you!
ginny
Jonathan
November 27, 2003 - 12:44 pm
At Dr Mehta's in Rangoon, it was dining at its most lavish and chaotic.
Thanks, Ginny. I was hoping we would pause at Chapters VII and VIII, in which Gandhi has a few things to say about Kumbha Mela, and then about the hanging bridge over the Ganges on the way from Hardiwar to Rishikesh. These two chapters, imo, serve as well as any two in the book for getting to know the mind of the Mahatma; and the strange world of his eating disorders.
I must admit that here I come close to finding the Mahatma insufferable. Perhaps it was not feeling well that makes him seem so irascible, so out-of-joint, so sanctimonious to the point of being misanthropical. Perhaps it was seeing the real India for the first time. He had been an expatriate for all his mature years. He was discovering India and himself at forty-five.
Chapter VII begins well enough, with the ultimate in Bengali hospitality at Babu Basu's. One might reasonably expect that it would leave Gandhi in a good frame of mind for a few pages. Far from it. The conditions on the boat to Rangoon have him holding his nose and stopping his ears.
Getting to Hardvar at the headwaters of the Ganges left him feeling even more miserable. And the first order of business on arrival is the dismissal of the paid scavengers digging the toilet pits, replacing them with his own people, the 'Phoenix party' from South Africa. Gandhi had an amazing ability to keep everyone around him busy; and, more often than not, the 'self-reliance' he taught, meant saving money.
This one has to read about, when one would much rather hear Gandhi's views about one of the greatest of Hindu festivals. It's April in the foothills of the Himalayas. Seventeen lakhs of men (1,700,000) have come to celebrate the Solar New Year, to gaze with reverance at the depression in the stone down by the riverside, the footprint of Vishnu, god of preservation.
Gandhi is totally turned off. He came looking for, or expecting to find an uplifting experience. Reality turns out to be the pilgrims' collective 'absent-mindedness, hypocrisy, and slovenliness.' It leaves him disturbed. He passed the whole night immersed in deep thought, musing on the likelihood of finding even a few pious souls among all those hypocrites; wondering if indeed it was sinful to come to these affairs; contemplating his own suffering atonement for the iniquity of the pilgrims; meditating on the relative feelings of obscurity and notoriety in his own life; and, finally, just allowing his mind to meander away into thoughts on the therapeutic self-discipline to be achieved by vowing healthier dietetic changes. A new pledge, and in no time he is looking back from thirteen years later in a self-congratulatory way.
Back on the road, it's the same old business. Gandhi is disgusted at the desecrations scattered about, reaching even to the sacred waters of the Ganges. He's filled with agony, little noticing how serenely Mother Ganges receives the desecrations of her holy children. Gandhi's aesthetic sense is gone, he has little sense of appreciation left when he gets to the iron bridge, which is 'entirely out of place'.
This, I can't help thinking, reflects the influence of Tolstoy, who expressed similar derogatory views about the Eiffel Tower in Paris. Tolstoy was in, during those years, and his teachings found receptive ears. Brahmacharya no doubt owed much to Tolstoy, especially his notion that sexual love or marriage amounted wholly to serving oneself, completely incompatible with the unconditional love of God.
Once passed the bridge, or was it before, the reader is treated to a curious tale of a lengthy discussion between Gandhi and the holy men of Rishihesh, pertaining to kanthis, shiksas, and holy threads, which only serve to remind the reader of how much else Gandhi could have told his readers.
Jonathan
MountainRose
November 27, 2003 - 10:37 pm
to teach the ways of peace on our planet:
http://www.crosscurrents.org/boulding.htm
Ginny
November 28, 2003 - 06:26 am
Well if you are reading our Books Community Center you know how I spent Thanksgiving and I enjoyed reading your own voices in front of the fire. I am wondering, however if we are mistaking the "Himalayan mistake?"
Here, again, is the third version of the Dyer incident. My take on this is that Gandhi had instigated Satyagraha but the problem was he did not realize that those called to do it had not done the like preparation he had and did not have the same motives, and so violence broke out. THAT was shocking to him and he felt he had made a "Himalayan mistake" in assuming they would be prepared. But that's all it was.
Meanwhile, the British, afraid of riot (after all they were definite minorities in the country they took over) (and we'll learn more of this in Freedom) began putting up all kinds of disgusting demeaning Acts and prohibitions, including one on assembling put up shortly before one of the major FESTIVALS.
We have seen the turn outs for these festivals, they are very important (now and then) to the Indian and a time of festivity. At the time of the Jallinwala Bagh, an injunction on gathering had been put out. It is doubtful everybody got the message. How could they have? Thousands of people coming from all over speaking different dialects, a horror. Were there any warnings at all to those coming for the joyous festival that there WAS some sort of Prohibition on Assembling?
What was done?
Yet for India Armistice was followed by more dreadful repression, triggered by more martial "law." The Rowlatt Acts, which Gandhi labeled "Black Acts," extended wartime suspension of civil liberties and Common Law safeguards, as the very first post war legislation introduced by the Government of India.
"The fundamental principles of justice have been uprooted and the constitution rights of the people have been violated at a time where there is no real danger to the State, " Jinnah wrote Chelmsford in resigning from the Legislative council, "by an over fretful and incompetent bureaucracy which is nether responsible for the people nor in touch with real public opinion."
Gandhi called upon Indians to pray and vow never to obey such heinous laws. Satyagraha protest marches and strikes spread from Bombay to Delhi, from Bengal to Punjab.
The battle was joined in Amritsar in April 1919, where a walled "garden "(bagh)less than half a mile from the Skikh Golden Temple became the anguished birthplace of India's revolutionary Nationalism . Reginald Dyer, the deranged British brigadier who ordered his Gurkha and Baluchi troops to open fire, without warning at thousands of unarmed people trapped at close range while celebrating a Hindu festival, later testified that he had acted to "produce the necessary moral and widespread effect."
He murdered some 400 innocents, wounded at least 1,200, then hurried his troops out of Jallinawala Bagh without offering any medical assistance to the poor groaning, dying human beings shattered inside. Lord Chelmsford labeled such actions merely, "an error of judgment, transitory in it consequences." Montague at less insisted on Dyer's immediate recall, and early "retirement."
But the British House of Lords amassed a small fortune to express their appreciation for Dyer's "valiant services" to the Crown, presenting the purse to him with a bejeweled sword on which was inscribed "Savior of the Punjab."
The Jallinawala Bagh massacre did have a widespread moral effect throughout India, convincing many moderate leaders of Congress that gradual constitutional devolution of power was no longer enough. Through out the war, after all, Indians had been told that Britain and her allies were fighting against Prussian "barbarism" and "frightfulness." Now the British had behaved as badly; worse, from India's point of view.
Gandhi launched his first nationwide Stayagraha in August 1920.
from, India by Stanley Wolpert
I am hard pressed here to blame Gandhi for any of this, tho knowing him, I expect he fully blamed himself.
Does anybody know of the end of Dyer? I feel I must look up Dyer, and see if he, like Gracie after the Titanic, suffered any remorse before his death!
more on your fabulous posts….
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 28, 2003 - 07:12 am
"He was censured by the Hunter commission for his action. He retired and was sent back to England. However, he continued to maintain that he had done no disservice to the Raj, and what he did was right, for which the British ought to be thankful.
In London, the general was given a hero's welcome. Called ''the saviour of India,'' the editor of the Morning Post collected 3,000 pounds to award him for his services. The Tories and a majority of members in the House of Lords rallied to his support. The army counsel which took up the case charged him only for an error of judgement, and recommended his retirement on half pay with no prospects of further employment. A British court even exonerated him of this charge."
Anneo
Ginny
November 28, 2003 - 07:56 am
NEVER, Anneo? Never? not even as he lay dying?
ginny
Ginny
November 28, 2003 - 08:26 am
When you think about it, it kind of shows you what courage Gandhi HAD doesn't it? If people are going to gunned down in cold blood for nothing, attending a festival, unarmed women, children and men, then what courage it must have taken to do a nationwide Satyragaha.
The scene in the movie particularly at the well, I thought, showing Gandhi AT the well afterwards (WAS he actually there?) was very poignant. The well where people jumped in to escape the fire.
Joan K thank you for those wonderful thoughts and kind remarks on the discussion we've captured them and may want to use them later if you'll give your permission, I feel the same way about the discussion. I loved this one "I hope we can take a little of the best of Gandhi with us." I do too. Thank you!
Eloise I very much like your take on why Gandhi wrote the book! And I really liked your bit about "us who spend so much time trying to avoid any kind of discomfort!" Yes! I think you put your finger on it, many thanks@!
Jonathanji, thank you for that knowledge of Tolstoy I did not know that about the sexual love being incompatible with God in Tolstoy's view! How well read Gandhi was! (And you are!)
ahahahah you found Gandhi insufferable in Chapters VII and VIII? Hahaah I had the opposite reaction and had isolated out a great quote from Gandhi in one of the books I'm following along in, have finished the Brown, and still going thru the Wolpert India, but I can't find it, but something about how two people can look at the same thing differently. I don't see ANYTHING insufferable here? Hahahaha My goodness how would you feel finding somebody defecating in a sacred place, that does not especially bode well for their spirituality and I took it as he was depressed and discouraged, that's a bit far from the goal, isn't it? I think idealists are often very discouraged, that others don't live up to their own ideals, THAT is why they say associating with saints (sorry for those of you who don't admit to Saints on Earth) so difficult.
I guess Gandhi hoped if The Way were shown to people they would naturally want to take it up?
I mean the whole religion is based on The Way?
Lou, thank you also for that wonderful quote, I agree with you, we may want to use it, also!
Malryn thank you for those definitions, they don't mean what I thought, PUKKA I have always wondered what a PUKKA hat was and a PUKKA Sahib, thank you!!
Carolyn, the millions will remain poor reminds me of the Biblical injunction that the poor you will have with you always, I think it's realistic not a cop out and true, unfortunately, if not poor materially, in spirit then?
I think you may be right on the reincarnation aspect of it.
Lou thank you for those Vows of the Ashram, reading the celibacy one made me wonder if perhaps they would have been like the Shakers, celibacy themselves out of existence?
Thank you for the quotes from the Gandhi reader, and you, too, Malryn, we could do a Gandhi quote o the day here forever!!
Very quotable man!
We should have!
Maybe in Freedom.
I did not see that program Jonathanji, thank you for that comparison to Robert Kennedy, I did see the PBS one and noted again how young and vulnerable he looked.
(Or is that the program you are talking about?)
Rose, thank you for those wonderful thoughts, I am sorry to hear you lost relatives in Germany, I've just come from the Holocaust Museum in DC, very moving, have you seen it?
Thank you for letting us know you heard from Arum, did you ask him about the education issue?
Jonathanji, thank you for quotes from the Attenborough book, what a rich discussion this has been, thanks to the wonderful parallel reading you all are doing!
I note Attenborough keeps referring to him as Gandhiji, too.
I had to ask my professor at Oxford and apparently I mispronounced it because you know ghee is fat but she got it and said it means "Sir."
,
I can hear them chanting it now from the movie, can't you?
Malryn, that is an intriguing question, would you say passion and nonviolence are not related?
Jonathanji, can you point to passages in Chapters VIII and IX that you found self congratulatory so we can discuss it?<br
Talking of the bridge, the iron bridge, I wish I could have gotten all of the photo in the scanner because that one of the sea of humanity in the Ganges shows three bridges which look as if they do have iron in their construction, and they are totally massed with people, it's quite striking.
Ann I am so sorry you have been sick and hope you recover soon, that's nothing to fool with, thank you for the kind words!
Ok we're nearing the end, let's not leave a stone unturned, especially if Freedom at Midnight dismisses Gandhi as an old tired man, is there anything else on Gahdhi you'd like to bring here for us to talk about?
ginny
YiLi4
November 28, 2003 - 11:37 am
Sorry if I am out of synch with the threads- but Mal- in catching up wanted to note that amazing observation you posted-- falling in love with the messenger and forgetting the message-- you have certainly got my thoughts a cookin- and not just about Ghandi. Thank you for that post.
YiLi4
November 28, 2003 - 11:40 am
Thank you all for this wonderful discussion- funny how often in the past I'd use snippets and quotes from and about Ghandi, and thought I had a reasonably good view of the man and his times for reading and film, but it is always sooooooooo much better to be able to share observations, agree and disagree- as we pursue knowledge-
Jonathan
November 28, 2003 - 12:25 pm
Would anyone, including generals, and 60 some gurkhas and baluchis, stick around after committing such an atrocity, and then with empty rifles await the wrath of the thousands of infuriated who were still alive?
It was such a sorry business. I believe Gandhi was implicated in the political unrest preceding the massacre and contributed to the disturbances, inciting to 'action' with his activities. I see him as a controversial figure. A saint for some, but a very, very human being as his Autobiography shows. Doesn't take anything away from his greatness.
And his political techniques have been studied and honed by others who seek for 'peaceful', non-violent solutions. I've found MountainRose's thoughts and feelings on the subject very interesting.
A good example is the peaceful tactic used to get Eduard Shevardnadze out of office a few days ago. One can get the gist of it from a short newspaper quote:
'how to stage a peaceful revolution...last weekend more than 1,ooo students (who had taken three day courses) engaged in street protests that eventually forced Mr Shevardnadze to sign his resignation papers. (The trick is to learn) the value of seizing and holding the moral high ground, and how to make use of public pressure - tactics that proved so persuasive on the streets of Tibilsi after this month's tainted parliamentary election.'
And by the way, Ginny, the same newspaper, ran an interesting, unsettling article on moviemaking in India. Anyone interested can try globeandmail.com. Type in bollywood in the SEARCH bar.
It may well be that there were many in the Bagh that day who were unaware of the mass meeting prohibition. Their leaders must have known, and must bear some of the responsibility. I'm sure Gandhi reflected long and hard on his role in that historical event. What struck me was how little he had to say about it in his book. Perhaps it didn't seem so pivotal at the time of writing. Perhaps it was embarrassing to remind himself of it, to remember.
I'm sorry to see this discussion coming to an end. I've found Gandhi to be both greater and lesser than I had thought. I feel I've gotten to know him. A little.
Jonathan
Jonathan
November 28, 2003 - 12:40 pm
'I have been under these vows for now thirteen years. They have subjected me to a severe test, but I am able to testify that they have also served as my shield. I am of opinion that they have added a few years to my life and saved me from many an illness.' (G's last words at the end of Ch VII)
Not a word of grateful acknowledgement in the end, of the role Hardvar had played in it. It was all his own doing.
Jonathan
Ginny
November 28, 2003 - 02:11 pm
YiLi, thank you for those neat thoughts, I agree!
Jonathanji, ah, I see, but again he had already mentioned the influence of Hardvar?
But the Hardvar experiences prove for me to be of inestimable value. they helped me in no small way to decide where i was to live and what I was to do.
I'm not sure if he mentioned at the end again all of the people and things that influenced him if he'd have to write another book, and I'm not sure, again, if maybe it was NOT all of his doing. Surely there were people who also visited Hardvar who went home and said tsk tsk and got on with their lives? I may not understand the incident, and it wouldn't be the first time!
OH I am going RIGHT NOW to globeandmail.com and read about bollywood, I started watching Lagaan again last night, can't wait to see what it says. Thank you for that!!
Oh I do see what you mean about his not mentioning it, I wonder if he writes about it anywhere else in his writings? Does anybody know? He seems to have written tons of books? Maybe it's in another one?
I thought this entire section, so full tremendous events, and all sort of of brused over, just touching on the truly mometous events like the Rowlatt Act for instance, was almost like the end, where he says, people know all this now so I'll quit, I think he had a feeling everybody knew about those incidents, but I may be wrong. WE certainly, in 2003, do not, but I'm not sure he wrote it for us.
Or did he?
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 28, 2003 - 02:50 pm
'he who calls his bretheren.............etc'
anneofavonlea
November 28, 2003 - 04:45 pm
why would the general change then, its not how one dies but how one lives that sets the example. Vale Gandhi, your goodness for me remains whole. Selfserving? I think not.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 28, 2003 - 05:03 pm
GINGEE, I don't think UNDINE was insulting JONATHANJI. I think she was laughing because he mixed up his Yiddish with his Hindi (perhaps deliberately!) After all those years of learning how to speak and read Yiddish, JONATHANJI wishes he was one, but I know for fact that he isn't. All he is is a mentsh, a Yiddisher Kop-Boytchik (decent, smart guy-boy) with a sense of humor, and that's enough for me, Bubele (honey).
To me, Gandhi was a mixture of many things. He had saintly qualities on the one hand and very human ones on the other. What's important, I think, is that he lived his beliefs as best he could, and in the process helped millions of people.
Mal
GingerWright
November 28, 2003 - 05:15 pm
If you are right I will apoligize but Not untill I know for sure, but thanks for pointing that out to me.
Ginny
November 28, 2003 - 05:19 pm
Regardless of the intent or the possible familial relationship, ad hominem remarks are against the policy of SeniorNet and not welcome in the Books, there are other ways to make a point besides calling somebody an idiot. I think an apology is called for and even though I know this post will be removed I wanted to be on record saying that.
The bollywood link Jonathan gave is excellent, it seems there are worms in every apple, I recommend reading two of the articles which I have printed out.
Anneo, I bet you he did, I bet you he was sorry, have you ever read the story of Titanic survivor Gracie? It's fascinating.
Poor man tortured himself to death and he was a hero.
Jonathan has a point, tho, why would the shooters stay around when they were out of ammunition (and that IS why they stopped and why they left) they were in great danger. Perhaps another question might be why did Indian troops obey Dyer's orders in the first place?
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 28, 2003 - 05:45 pm
you are an incurable optimist
Anneo
kiwi lady
November 28, 2003 - 08:02 pm
What do I think of Gandhi after reading this book. I don't know except personally I could never have lived with a man like Gandhi. I think his wife must have also been a saint. I think his family missed out big time.
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2003 - 07:43 am
I had a friend 25 years older than I am who grew up as a peasant in Czechoslovakia. As a child he was turned out to the field to help raise the food he and his family ate. He learned early how to shear the few sheep they owned, wash and card the wool, spin it into yarn and weave it into fabric his mother and sisters made into clothes they wore. He cut the trees and sawed the logs which were used for heat and cooking. He and his brother, two sisters and mother and father lived in a one room hut his father had built himself on land rented from a rich farmer, which had very little between the rudimentary floor and the cold ground underneath.
He had very little schooling, and when he managed somehow to come to the United States at the age of 18, he could barely read or write his own language, knew only the most basic arithmetic and spoke no English. A devout Catholic, he knew less about his religion or the ritual of the mass than I, a non-Catholic, know. He got a job as a janitor at a weapons factory known as Remington Arms in Connecticut. He never read a book in his life and thought education was dangerous. When he retired, he had worked himself up to a job as a maintenance man in a carpet factory in Yonkers, New York and bought a four room house in the country where he tended a very large garden and spun and wove yarn.
My paternal grandfather was a potato farmer in Maine. He and his hard-working wife raised 9 children in a small house with no indoor plumbing or electricity on land they rented from a rich farmer. My grandfather had only enough education to learn how to read the Bible and never read another book besides that in his life. He thought education was dangerous, and raised his children according to his strict interpretation of the Bible. My father and his brothers and sisters were sent out in the fields when they were very young and left home very early to find jobs and try to get an education for themselves.
My father had only a few grades of school and lived by his wits and his hands building houses and doing what plumbing he had picked up. My grandmother made sacrifices all her life so her children would have a better chance than she did. She worked in the field, milked the cow, canned vegetables she grew and sewed all the clothes her family wore.
Hit hard by the Depression, my mother died in her early 40's in a two room cold water tenement heated by a kerosene stove which was also used for cooking. Most of the food she had for her family came from a free city-run commissary. The rest she earned by washing floors and doing housework for rich people when she could find jobs. My father and she did not live together.
Because of circumstances, the only thing I own besides a 19 year old car, which was a gift to me twelve years ago, are some old furniture I bought at yard sales, pre-owned books and a computer my son bought me with a monitor my daughter bought for me. It is networked to her cable system, for which I don't pay. My luxury is the purchase of web page space for the publication of my electronic magazines. I also own a 19 year old TV someone gave to me 13 years ago. I have money enough only for basic necessities. Those necessities do not include buying clothes or going anywhere besides the supermarket and to things that are free. My alimony income is under the poverty level and pays my rent. I live on a monthly Social Security check which is just under $600. a month. I am wondering if any of these people I mention or I have more goodness in us, or are any closer to truth because of deprivation than people who don't live like this.
Gandhi chose to be poor. Because of his principles and what he believed, he insisted that his family live as he did. My friend and my grandparents would have thought he was crazy. I have mixed feelings about him because I am unable to romanticize him, his way of life and what he did. I believe in non-violence and have preached it all of my adult life. I also believe people can be good and perform humanitarian acts which help many, many people without living in dire poverty.
If you chose to emulate Gandhi in some small way, what would you give up in your life in order to seek the truth and do good?
Mal
Ginny
November 29, 2003 - 07:53 am
If you chose to emulate Gandhi in some small way, what would you give up in your life in order to seek the truth and do good?
Splendid question, Malryn, up in the heading it goes, and what a super time to ask it, right before the Season of Excess!
Love it, what do you all say?
Thank you Anneo, I hope so!
ginny
Ginny
November 29, 2003 - 08:51 am
General Reginald Dyer on the Jallinwalla Bagh Massacre: "I think it quite possible that I could have dispersed the crowd without firing but they would have come back again and laughed, and I would have made, what I consider, a fool of myself.''
He contended that martial law existed de facto in Amritsar at that time although only demonstrations had been forbidden. He also claimed that his military column had stopped at every important point to announce that all meetings have been banned which were accompanied by the beating of drums.
However, when questioned with the help of a map of the city, General Dyer was forced to admit that important localities had been omitted, and a large number of people would not have known about the proclamation.
He confessed he did not take any steps to attend to the wounded after the firing. ''Certainly not. It was not my job. Hospitals were open and they could have gone there,'' came his pathetic response.
However, the misery suffered by the people was reflected in Rattan Devi's account. She was forced to keep a nightlong vigil, armed with a bamboo stick to protect her husband's body from jackals and vultures. Curfew with shoot-at-sight orders had been imposed from 2000 hours that night.
Rattan Devi stated, ''I saw three men writhing in great pain and a boy of about 12. I could not leave the place. The boy asked me for water but there was no water in that place...At 2 am, a jat who was lying entangled on the wall asked me to raise his leg. I went up to him and took hold of his clothes drenched in blood and raised him up. Heaps of bodies lay there, a number of them innocent children. I shall never forget the sight. I spent the night crying and watching..."
General Dyer admitted before the commission that he came to know about the meeting at Jallianwala Bagh at 1240 hours that day, but took no steps to prevent it.
Colum, a scholar who interviewed his widow and consulted his papers, said, "This unexpected gift of fortune, this unhoped for defiance, this concentration of rebels in an open space -- it gave him an opportunity as he could not have devised. It separated the guilty from the innocent, it placed them where he would have wised them to be -- within the reach of his sword.''
However, General Dyer admitted in his deposition that the gathering at the Bagh was not a concentration only of rebels, but people who had covered long distances to participate in the Baisakhi fair.
Swinson, an English journalist, described the scene as: ''Hundreds were asleep in the sun, others were concentrating on their game of cards. A number of them had come with their children, three to 12 years old. Some 27,000 odd people had gathered in the Bagh, an open space surrounded on all sides by houses with only four narrow entrances.''
General Dyer said he would have used his machine guns if he could have got them into the enclosure, but these were mounted on armoured cars. He said he did not stop firing when the crowd began to disperse because he thought it was his duty to keep firing until the crowd dispersed, and that a little firing would do no good.
He was censured by the Hunter commission for his action. He retired and was sent back to England. However, he continued to maintain that he had done no disservice to the Raj, and what he did was right, for which the British ought to be thankful.
In London, the general was given a hero's welcome. Called ''the saviour of India,'' the editor of the Morning Post collected 3,000 pounds to award him for his services. The Tories and a majority of members in the House of Lords rallied to his support. The army counsel which took up the case charged him only for an error of judgement, and recommended his retirement on half pay with no prospects of further employment. A British court even exonerated him of this charge. From: Hall of Shame
Ginny
November 29, 2003 - 09:37 am
I've been out looking at all of the "What Would Gandhi Do?" websites, there are even What Would Gandhi Do buttons you can buy!
One reason Gandhi is difficult to read is the large number of unfamiliar words that the 2003 American reader has to stop over and mark for later understanding and his encyclopedic memory for names. As a person who can barely remenber my own name I'm astounded at how many NAMES of people he's cited in his works, if you made a list I bet you'd be staggered. And he did it witn no notes. Maybe that's the attorney's mind at work?
When I read a book I admit I read too fast and when you come to one of those long Indian names you have to stop and sound it out for yourself, and this last section is FULL of them! One problem I always have in Russian novels is the NAMES, the capitalized names which are so long as to be almost incomprehensible, and the reader, who has to STOP yet again, finds himself often irritated. Yet I'm so glad we did read this, and thank all of you for your own thoughts on that, as well, because apparently very few people have actually READ it, many of those who did found it ODD and him STRANGE, and it's been quite valuable.
I find myself saying TO myself "what would Gandhi do here," because he was determined to use and see everything that happened to him as something he could make lemonade out of or use or as a message that he should do something. I like that type of thinking and I think for my own part in answer to Malryn, I would like to take away a little bit of his approach to everything, so what would I personally give up? I think, if I can, ego, and First Reactions which are almost always angry and negative and try to see the other person's side. I think that might be the hardest thing, for me, TO give up, and it might do ME the most good.
ginny
Ann Alden
November 29, 2003 - 10:26 am
Thanksgiving was just super!!
First off, I didn't have to cook the whole meal, it was in someone's else home, and cleaning up was
done by others,too. Wow!! And, the assembled group was just great fun with which to visit. We had
a grand afternoon and evening. And our grandkids were there, too.
Hope all who were in the "When Religion Becomes Evil" discussion will return on Dec 1st to finish
the book with Chap. 6 & 7. See ya all there!!
MountainRose
November 29, 2003 - 10:47 am
good. Gandhi chose to be poor as a mode of discipline and as a way of unity with most of his country's people, and it worked for him. I admire him because he also found a way to confront an enemy without aggression, and that also worked for him, and has worked for others who have used his methods since then. What he has done is given us a choice in the way we confront enemies, instead of automatically fighting an aggressive war as the only answer. And in his experimentation he stayed very human, with very human flaws. That makes me actually "love" him in a way.
I would not have wanted to be married to him, because living with someone who is that dedicated to a cause means the family always comes in second or even third, and the family has no choice about it. It's just the way it is. It's another great reason for celibacy that I've always intuited in spite of what our society claims. Sexual energy can be transferred into good causes, as he did and as I have seen others do.
I have deliberately chosen a life of simplicity because it suits me just fine, both for discipline purposes and not to become bogged down by a lot of material things, since I found out a long time ago that material things all take much care and one becomes a slave to them, and after a while I feel actually bogged down and burdened with them. I don't like waste either, and in our material-oriented society we create in incomprehensible amount of waste, most of it by robbing the earth and third-world countries of natural resources, so we can have "junk" around that's not necessary to systain life. I lived part of my life in material plenty, and I was no happier than I am now in a life of simplicity and barely sustainable mode, which has been a deliberate choice on my part so I can have time and energy for the things I truly want to do and that make me happy, and so I am "free" of society's rules and corporate rules. I live life in awareness, aware of how much gasoline or electricity I use, aware of nutritious meals without spending a lot, aware of waste, but without being paranoid about any of it. And the odd thing is that I feel rich.
Seems to me that we should all be able to choose what suits us. Poverty without choice is no choice at all, but poverty and simplicity because one chooses it can be a good thing and a learning experience. Nor am I talking about abject poverty without enough to eat, but merely a simple lifestyle with "just enough".
My mother came from East Prussia and she lived pretty much like Mal describes her friend's life from Chzechoslovakia (sp?). At 11 years of age she was apprenticed to the land owner and worked 16 to 18 hours a day at hard labor, including spinning at night when the days were short and she would fall asleep over the spinning wheel from exhaustion. Her family was large and lived in a hut with a dirt floor. They were pretty much serfs to the landowner, and his word was law. If the landowner was protestant, than all the people who worked for him were protestant. There was no choice about it. I remember my mother with her first refrigerator when we first came to America. She was so proud and my father had to take picture after picture of her standing next to it to send back home. Same with the first car. Those possessions were inconceivable to them, and even after they had them they had a hard time believing it. And then it turned into the whole competition with friends and neighbors and nothing was ever quite enough.
But I also think that we have come full circle. While being poor is a pain, it also gives one a certain amount of freedom from taking care of many things, from shopping, from following along with the crowd in such times as now with the holidays coming up. It is amazing how little the human person needs to survive. I think education is more important than "things" or money. With education one can have an expansive life even when one is poor. My mother never understood that. She had been so deprived, because of not having a choice, that "things" were important to her. She never read a book either and didn't care to, and did not understand why I would deliberately choose my life of simplicity with a minimum amount of "stuff" except for books and art supplies. I understand her viewpoint, simply because she never had a choice the way I have had. A choice makes all the difference, but from either perspective, a person can do much good in the world, in little ways if we are poor, and in big ways if we are rich.
GingerWright
November 29, 2003 - 11:00 am
What a Wonderful post as it is truly the way to live and this is certainly the place for it. Thank you for it. I read all over the book discussions but do not post much due to time but just had to comemt on your post.
Ginger to some Gingee to others.
kiwi lady
November 29, 2003 - 11:14 am
I don't think there is any joy in not being able to pay the bills. I think everyone has to be able to pay day to day expenses.
I do think my changed circumstances both in my health and in my finances has made me a more compassionate person. I was never materialistic but I had a choice in the past whether I spent or not. Now I have to think very carefully before I spend a cent. Any money I can spend is usually spent on books or supplies for the Grands like art materials etc and second hand toys and books. I like to have plenty for the kids to do when they visit. I am lucky my mother is a fashionable clothes horse and keeps her clothes immaculate. She passes these clothes on to me so I don't need to buy going out clothes. I get casual clothes from a friend who also keeps her clothes immaculate. They look like new when I get them. I make sure I buy good fresh food and cook from scratch - its a lot cheaper than buying prepared foods. (Luckily I have good cooking skills!)
Would I choose to live like Gandhi. I don't think I could. I do like some creature comforts even if they are simple ones. As Mal and another poster have written being content in poverty is feasible if it were a choice and not a necessity!
Ginny - I would definately not give up my PC! I don't think there is anything I prize I could give up except perhaps the TV which I rarely watch! I could not give up my tea or my morning coffees! I am NOT Saint material!
Carolyn
Jonathan
November 29, 2003 - 11:41 am
Thank you, dear friends. The deplorable gaffe was made, as Mal suggested, in a moment of linguistic confusion. The arrow shot off by undine in a moment of excessive concern for the Mahatma's untouchable reputation went straight to its mark. I can forgive. In the true spirit of ahimsa. Just as I firmly believe and take solace in the certainty of being forgiven by Gandhi's generous spirit. It is most welcome to come for dinner in my house anytime.
Jonathan
GingerWright
November 29, 2003 - 11:44 am
I also would Not like to have to give up my PC now television I have given up to the extent of just having an antena for the Webtv that I enjoy because of a big screen TV bought many years ago when I knew that they were making internet go thru the TV as does the Webtv, my PC does not need it but I enjoy both the Webtv and the PC. Not rich just prioity. I quit cable a few years ago.
Ginger
Éloïse De Pelteau
November 29, 2003 - 12:41 pm
MountainRose, I am in total agreement with your post 536. Thank you, for spreading wisdom for our benefit. As a child raised in poverty, it rang a bell with me.
Gandhi might have been happier as a single man as his family was a hindrance to his 'cause' but having married barely out of childhood, he felt it was his traditional responsability to provide for them.
The 'cause' was more important, more urgent, more worthy and his family had to live with their Karma. In this he was a true Indian.
As for me, I like my comfort too much to go to that length for a 'cause'. I don't feel that I would have liked to embark on anything that required that much renunciation even for a cause as worthy as that one was.
Eloïse
Jonathan
November 29, 2003 - 12:46 pm
Ginny, I've spent considerable time taking in the information in that excerpt from Hall of Shame. And reading the rest of it in the link.
Everyone has to be aghast at what happened in the Bagh on that dreadful day. It seems incomprehensible that anyone could think of Gen Dyer as a hero.
So many questions remain. Asking the general to dress the wounds that he inflicted seems unreal. The warrior caste has its own agenda.
The massacre is taken to be a turning point in the history of the British Raj in India. No doubt attitudes hardened on the Indian side. While British public opinion generally found confirmation of the feeling of the non-future of Britain's rule in India. Indian Civil Service applications fell off drastically.
On the other hand, it took another twenty years until independence. For most of his life Gandhi was ambivalent at best about an end to the British presence, well aware of the probable violence once the British were gone. Forced to take a stand, he became resigned to violence. For the sake of satisfying the demand for 'independence', he declared himself willing to sacrifice millions.
Did you notice that Bollywood is making a film of the 1857 Mutiny? The British mind could never rid its memory of all those murdered English men and women.
Alas, the poor saint, with his gospel of non-violence, in a violent land.
Jonathan
Ginny
November 29, 2003 - 12:52 pm
Jonji, YES I saw that and forgot to mention it, also wanted to wait and double check and YES it's going to star Aamir Khan (they say the Tom Cruise of India) who, WHO just happens to be the star of Laagan: My Dream of India!!?? I thought I remembered that name, had to dig out the DVD, and yes he's quite handsome. I had no idea there was Indian Mafia!!
More later on everybody's wonderful posts!
I believe we hate to see this go!
ginny
Ginny
November 29, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Jonathanji, what's your source for this? "Forced to take a stand, he became resigned to violence. For the sake of satisfying the demand for 'independence', he declared himself willing to sacrifice millions. "
ginny
anneofavonlea
November 29, 2003 - 02:37 pm
our tendency to be able to manage without various things as we mature, is not about poverty but self denial, and a realization that things do not bring peace or happiness.
Also within my church at least there is a tendency to glorify poverty, which is probably a direct result of the "easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle " quote.I am never quiet comfortable with the loving the poor ideology, and think Carolyn was right about the 'poor always being with us' being a cop out.Unless I get him wrong Gandhi strove to have all men equal, and as I have said before was about raising the bar.
Poverty,as we westerners know it, is of course nothing like third world poverty, and our sin is I think that we live so materialistically in the same world as others who have not the basic essentials of food and shelter.
have met a lady who returned earlier this year from Somalia.She went to Ethiopia to help set up a school, and was able to "buy" some somalian slaves so that they may be returned to their people. The slaves were children, and she with the help of U.N. border guards re-united them with their exiled families and took them back to the Ethiopian village she was teaching in.They were all without clothes, and when they got to ethiopia the villagers had only skirts and flowing tops. they took off their top covering, hitched up their skirts round their top half and handed the blouses to the somalians.She was completely overwhelmed by these people who had so little, yet spontaneously shared it with those around them.Having heard the story our particular group donated well that day to her return to Somalia to assist further, but sadly one doesnt keep such things always with them, instead we go back to our lives.
To emulate Gandhi, is I am afraid not within me, my creature comforts are way too important, and yes I think we do hate to leave Ginny, because at least while we read him we may just be a little more concerned about our fellow man.
Marcie Schwarz
November 29, 2003 - 02:43 pm
Hello, all. I am not sure how it was meant but I've removed a post here that seemed to be an insult to a fellow participant and a couple of posts that responded to it (that were not insulting).
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2003 - 03:52 pm
Thanks, MARCIE, for not removing my post which was so full of Yiddishkayt. It was a different point of view. I love Gandhi's idea of 7 points of view. If there were anything of Gandhi's I'd like to emulate it would be that. So many times I've said with a smile, "Oh, so and so, you're such an idiot, you know very well that . . . ." with only love and kindness in my heart. Trouble is, we can't see smiles and gestures through this medium, can we, so we must be very careful about our choice of words.
How could one possibly glorify the poor and their condition of poverty? The poor shall see the kingdom of heaven? It's not enough. Every time I see truly poor people, homeless and hungry, my heart is wrenched from my chest. I feel worse because I can't do anything for them now.
Though it may not seem this way from my posts, I am as soft-hearted as one of my sons, who provides shelter for four people in need as well as his family. ( Shades of his mother who many times did the same thing. ) I gave away what little money I had; gave the shirt off my back, literally, and it still wasn't enough.
You see, part of my situation today is my own fault. I ignored and forgot an old maxim of survival which says, "After me you come first." Even Gandhi did not forget that. It took me a long, long time to realize that if I didn't take care of myself first, I could nothing for anyone else.
It occurs to me that as we progress into real old age, we begin losing certain capabilities we took for granted, or things begin to diminish all by themselves. I would love, for example, to be able to afford to hire someone to come in and clean for me, and someone to help me get on that blasted bath bench so showering would be easier, and someone to help me get out, since doing that alone has become difficult. I can allow myself to impose on my daughter only just so much. I would, in fact, like to have someone do for me what I did for some elderly people and recovering drug and alcohol addicts only a few years ago as a willing, unpaid volunteer.
I think the only way people can become unresigned to violence is to refuse to take up arms against anyone and assert our protest in the same way Gandhi did. Who among us is willing to risk our necks enough to do that?
Mal
MountainRose
November 29, 2003 - 05:14 pm
I read the other day. A man from India said to his friend (it was his friend's writing about it) that he would love to live in a country "where even the poor can be fat". He meant America, and so of course, the poverty here is far different from poverty in the rest of the world. Some years ago there was a TV program shown in Russia about the poor in America. It was meant to destroy America's image, but what it did instead was reinforce that America was an incredibly rich country by their standards, because Russians saw that even poor people in America had TV sets and cars and telephones that worked. I also read that in some of the favelas in South America women do not "attach" to their babies until about the age of 2 because most of the babies die, and they have learned through bitter experience not to get attached to a child that will most likely die. They have learned that by age 2 a child is more likely to survive, and it's only then that the mothers become truly attached.
I don't think I could handle some of the things that people of the rest of the world have to bear, but that's also why I have chosen to live simply; to attempt to be mindful of them, and to allow that which I don't use to maybe give someone in a poor country a better chance for survival by not even desiring their raw materials which are used for endless new products here.
I think you are right about Gandhi trying to raise the bar for everyone, both economically and morally. He was definitely in a league of his own. He may also have been disappointed in what subsequently happened in India with all the violence that ensued, but over the long haul it doesn't matter, because he taught us all something important and gave us a new way to solve our problems. Nor do I think we can always solve our problems his way as yet; but hopefully with his beginning we will all mature into becoming a better people by remembering what he did and trying it out, as Martin Luther King did, and actually growing into the process as the generations go by.
anneofavonlea
November 29, 2003 - 05:36 pm
I hope I didnt imply that your manner of living was not to be admired. I approve entirely.Also think your take on poverty is spot on.
Think I have mentioned previously though, the only Australians who are genuinely prepared to share everything are our indigenous peoples, who are true socialists.Is it possible for us to be that generous, I wonder?
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2003 - 06:46 pm
If there's anyone here who thinks there are not desperately poor people in the United States right now you're kidding yourselves.
"September 27, 2003: The poverty rate increased between 2001 and 2002. The poverty rate rose from 11.7 percent in 2001 to 12.1 percent in 2002. The number of poor people increased by 1.7 million during this period, to 34.6 million. Since 2000, the year in which unemployment began rising, the number of poor Americans has grown by 3 million.
Increases in poverty were largest among blacks. The black poverty rate rose from 22.7 percent in 2001 to 24 percent in 2002, and the number of blacks who were poor increased by 500,000 or 700,000, depending on which definition of blacks is used.
"Those who were poor grew poorer, on average. Using a measure of the depth of poverty that counts non-cash benefits and the Earned Income Tax Credit and subtracts income and payroll taxes, the average poor person’s income was farther below the poverty line in 2002 than in any other year since 1979, the first year for which such data are available. The 'poverty gap' per person in 2002 was $2,813. In addition, some 14.1 million Americans had incomes that were less than half of the poverty line in 2002, an increase of 600,000 over the number living below half of the poverty line in 2001.
Source: World Hunger Organization
"February 20, 2003: More than 33 million people in the United States are hungry or live on the edge of hunger, according to the latest U.S. Department of Agriculture and Census Bureau surveys."
Source: Food Research and Action Center
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2003 - 07:59 pm
anneofavonlea
November 29, 2003 - 09:50 pm
poverty is relative. At least they have an income. No one here is implying that first world countries are free from poverty.However what is the poverty line income in the United States?
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2003 - 10:22 pm
Oct. 3, 2003
The numbers from the Census Bureau and the Department of Health and Human Services are pretty close. Basically, if an individual makes less than $9,000 per year and a family of four makes less than $18,000 per year, they're earning below the poverty income level in the United States.
The National Coalition for the Homeless in Washington, D.C., estimates that 3.5 million people annually experience homelessness, including about 800,000 who are homeless on any given night.
Donald Whitehead, executive director of the coalition, said most homeless people are neither mentally ill nor drug addicts. In many cases, whole families suffering from poverty are forced to survive by sleeping in their cars or abandoned buildings.
Source:
Poverty income level
kiwi lady
November 30, 2003 - 01:24 am
The poverty level for a single person here is about the same as the USA and the family poverty level is a little bit higher here.
Yes Mal I know about the poverty in the USA my son mentioned he strayed into a poor neighbourhood in LA and he was upset and shocked by the number of homeless people.
Carolyn
Ginny
November 30, 2003 - 07:28 am
Well here we are on the last day, I feel a real reluctance to leave and reenter a less than perfect world, I enjoy bathing in the light of an idealist and of course we know that coming up is Freedom at Midnight and I agree with Joan K it's good we read this first, otherwise since Jonathanji points out Gandhi there is painted as old and tired and ineffective, we might not really know what want on.
The interview with Mountbatten's daughter on the A&E series Biography is quite telling on Gandhi's influence, I found it fascinating, can't get it out of my head, he did control, to a large extent, his surroundings for a long time.
so we move on. Here's a quote on Gandhi at that time, in old age, from Judith Brown's book:
He was also aware that his vision of non violence was not shared by many of those who surrounded him and looked to him for leadership, and he realized that, not least because of his commitment to non –violence, he would probably not be wanted in a free India. But even this did not perturb his tranquility in the face of declining strength and the passage of time. He maintained that there never had been and never would be despair in his life: his hope rested on increasing faith in an unseen God and therefore he did not try to see his future role, but despite the seemingly insoluble problems before him believe that through the workings of this divine power both people and situations could be changed.
Ann we are very glad to see you back and hope you are feeling fine soon!
Rose, loved your story of your mom and the refrigerator! Thank you for sharing those memories with us, so many of our old photos show the people standing next to cars or things which really mattered. Love it. I loved this, " a person can do much good in the world, in little ways if we are poor, and in big ways if we are rich." Thank you!
Carolyn, I agree, it would be hard to give up the computer, I thought of that in connection with the Wally Lamb the other day, I agree!
I'm not saint material, either!
But that does not mean I can't admire an example, love this discussion.
I agree, Ginger, it's a window on the world, these ways of communicating over the wire!
Eloise I agree, and my eye fell the other night on a page of the New Testament tho and there is Christ very plainly telling people if they can't leave mother and father and family, they can't follow, so there are parallels, even in Christianity, too, which I know is in the back of everybody's mind here. Thank you for pointing out that Gandhi chose to honor his wedding vows made while a young man. He tried to do it all, I think. I must get her book!
Anneo, thank you for the reference to the eye of a needle, the subject of much controversy today. Thank you for that stunning story. I agree our standards of poverty are not the same as elsewhere in the world, in one of the texts I'm reading it says that some persons never have a home, they live forever standing in the street and so do their children, no homeless shelters to go to, no social services, 40 million Indian children out of school, it's not good.
Malryn, thank you for the statistics on poverty even in the US< I am reminded of Mother Teresa's visit to the US and all the people who flocked to her wanting to help in India and she said start in your own family and your own neighborhood and I think she was right.
Rose, good point about Gandhi wanting to raise the bar for everyone and being definitely in a league of his own, I totally agree.
Malryn thank you for the pictures of Calcutta, Varanasi and Pondicherry!
Well we're here at the end, today is our last day, do you have any parting thoughts? I think I'll let Nehru's broadcast after the death of Gandhi be mine:
…the light has gone out of our lives and there is darkness everywhere…The light has gone out, I said, and yet I was wrong. For the light that shone in this country was no ordinary light…that light represented something more than the immediate present, it represented the living, the eternal truths, reminding us of the right path, drawing us from error, taking this ancient country to freedom…A great disaster is a symbol to us so remember all the big things of lie and forget the small things of which we have thought too much. In his death he has reminded us of the big things of life, the living truth, and if we remember that, then it will be well with India.
Do you have any final thoughts for our last day here?
ginny
Malryn (Mal)
November 30, 2003 - 08:47 am
I agree with Mother Theresa that starting in your own neighborhood is the way to begin. Isn't that really what Gandhi did?
Bette Midler started the New York City Restoration Group and began by making a garden out of an alley filled with trash and refuse. The project grew, and volunteers have made parks out of the most hopeless, dismal corners of that city. The idea has caught on, and whole neighborhoods of people have begun rejuvenating where they live. The effect is that people have started to change themselves and to take pride in what they are doing peacefully with others they might never have paid attention to or fought with before.
When I was a child I was told that it was a good idea to help people who had fewer advantages and less opportunity than I did. I had no money; all I could give was myself. At the age of 10 I began helping kids with their homework and teaching them how to play the piano. Later that evolved into something different, and perhaps even more important, with people who had hit rock bottom and needed a boost to get started again. Today this old woman who is mostly in a wheelchair can't do much except publish writing by writers whose work might not be published otherwise. The gift does not have to be money, and there are no rewards except the giving itself, also something Gandhi knew.
I see similarities between Gandhi's methods and those of Jesus Christ, of course, but I no longer think only as a person raised by Christians in a Christian community. Christianity evolved from religons which came before -- like Hinduism -- and it contains elements of the religions practiced by Ancient Greeks and others. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam all have nonviolence as part of their elements. Gandhi searched many religions, especially Theosophy, when he was young, and all of them led to the beliefs he settled on.
I wasn't just whistling Dixie when I asked earlier: "Who among us is willing to risk their necks to do that?" (practice nonviolence). Gandhi was not afraid to practice what he preached, and put himself on the line. It takes strength to stand up for nonviolent principles in what historically has always been a violent world. Perhaps it is Gandhi's strength, courage and dedication that I admire most of all.
Mal
Jonathan
November 30, 2003 - 09:18 am
Thanks to Ella and Ginny for leading the discussion, for exhorting us to push off.
Thanks for everyone who pulled at the oars.
Gingeebah, you're a sweetheart.
hail and fairwell bapu, with an infinity of Indian voices, chanting the age-old invocation from the vedas:
'Holy soul, may sun, air and fire be auspicious unto thee. Thy dear ones on the earth do not bewail their lot at thy departure, for they know that thou art gone to the radiant regions of the blessed. May the waters of all rivers and oceans be helpful unto thee, and serve thee ever in thy good deeds for the welfare of all beings. May all space and its four quarters be open unto thee for thy good deeds.'
and the lonely voice of one who knew him well:
'Even in his death there was a magnificence and complete artistry. It was from every point of view a fitting climax to the man and to the life he had lived. Indeed it heightened the lesson of his life. He died in the fullness of his powers and as he would no doubt have liked to die, at the moment of prayer. He died a martyr to the cause of unity to which he had always been devoted and for which he had worked unceasingly, more especially during the past year or more. He died suddenly as all men should wish to die. There was no fading away of the body or a long illness or the forgetfulness of the mind that comes with age. Why then should we grieve for him? Our memories of him will be of the Master, whose step was light to the end, whose smile was infectious, and whose eyes were full of laughter. We shall associate no failing powers with him of body or mind. He lived and died at the top of his strength and powers, leaving a picture in our minds and in the mind of the age that we live in that can never fade away...Bapu came to enrich us and make us strong, and the strength he gave us was not for a moment or a day or a year but it was something added on to our national inheritance.' Nehru
His finest hour, at 78! What a role model, this complex, non-compliant idealist and anarchist.
Jonathan
MountainRose
November 30, 2003 - 10:23 am
"the only Australians who are genuinely prepared to share everything are our indigenous peoples, who are true socialists. Is it possible for us to be that generous, I wonder?" -- was interesting to me because I've spent some time with the indigenous people in this country while my daughter married into one of the clans---in this case Navajo. And after observing their ways of sharing, I'm not sure that's the way to go, because what happens is that wealth is never built by anyone and everything is distributed even to those who waste it and drink themselves into oblivion. It's sort of like giving the poor a fish instead of teaching them how to fish, a temporary measure that never accomplishes much of anything. I know I saw a lot of abuse of the generosity by the wastrels of that society. And I'm sure that went on long before the white man ever set foot on this continent, no matter how much we romanticize the American Indian. It's just that before the white man came along they probably had ways of keeping their societies in some sort of balance, which was lost afterwards in the upheaval. But having watched them closely for some time, that society is not perfect either, and leaves VERY little room for individuality because everything comes down to the clan. Even crime is condoned within the clan, and child abuse, because no one wants to rock the boat and upset membership in the clan or be fingered as uncooperative, or even worse, as a witch.
So I don't think a socialistic society is the way to go. I'm not sure a capitalistic society is the way to go either, but everyone ought to pull his own weight to the effect that they are able. Of course that's another tricky business, because who decides if one is able and able at what? One could easily say I'm not pulling my weight since I left the corporate gamesmanship even though the profession I have is in high demand, but I chose to work only two days a week and make do with those earnings and no health insurance in order to pursue my painting. So far I've been lucky enough to be able to do that without hitting too many snags, except that I have to watch my pennies very carefully, and I don't plan to use outside help as long as I'm physically able to return to work should I have to. The freedom is worth it to me. But I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
I do wonder as we evolve as a species if we will come up with better methods that are more fair and equitable and that give all people a chance. But call me cynical, because I doubt it. There will always be those who will live off the labor of others without any guilt at all, and those who labor will resent it. I do think that voluntary groups such as Gandhi's, where he kept a tight rein on things, are a possibility---but I for one could not live that way. I'm waaaay too much of a hermit to be that involved with other people and all their idiosyncracies and the compromises that would require. I admire those who can do that, but it's not my cuppa tea.
I do believe everything in life is a trade-off, for every positive there is a negative. Living in a group gives one a certain amount of safety, but one also has to be wired to be able to live in a group. Being an individual means one has to take a lot more risk and also social censure---and so it goes. Alas, I don't think the world was ever meant to be perfect, but with role models such as Gandhi was, at least we can progress towards some sort of fuzzy picture of perfection even if it takes generations.
Ella Gibbons
November 30, 2003 - 02:22 pm
Oh, I had every intention of looking in, possibly posting, while I was out of town Thanksgiving weekend, but events intervened.
It is the last day of our discussion, I've enjoyed everyone's participation immensely; your personal stories were inspiring as were your comments on Gandhi. It was a great book discussion, and I am already well into FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT; it's more my kind of book as it gives the whole picture of India during the era we have been discussing and not just from Gandhi's perspective.
I copied a few quotes from some of you that reflected my own thoughts. I can agree with MountainRose when she said:
"I admire him because he also found a way to confront an enemy without aggression, and that also worked for him, and has worked for others who have used his methods since then. What he has done is given us a choice in the way we confront enemies, instead of automatically fighting an aggressive war as the only answer."
Thanks, also, MountainRose, for the Internet article entitled PEACE CULTURE by Elise Boulding, particularly this sentence:
"Since every human individual is different from every other, conflict is a basic part of any social order. Each of us sees, hears, and experiences the world uniquely, and we spend our lives bridging the differences between our perceptions (and the needs and wishes they generate) and the perceptions of others. Even though it is reasonable to ask why we do not fight constantly, given our differences, much of the time we do this work peacefully."
Quoting JONATHAN:
"I must admit that here I come close to finding the Mahatma insufferable. Perhaps it was not feeling well that makes him seem so irascible, so out-of-joint, so sanctimonious to the point of being misanthropical. "
I must admit, also, that he was far from a saint in my eyes, his obsessions with his body were repulsive - the salt/water enemas everyday, the mudpacks on his body, sleeping with a young virgin girl just to prove to himself that he was sexually continent, his disgust at his fellow Indians' behavior even though he knew it was lack of education, and his manner of dress - his nakedness - even going to England nakid when he had been there and knew English dress and manners.
But, as I quoted above, he has my admiration for the ability to inspire people; he will be beloved in India perhaps forever and, whether he deserves the honor or not, (it's questionable as we have said before) he brought independence to India.
Thanks to all of you for a great discussion and I hope to meet all of you again soon. YOU'VE DONE US PROUD WITH YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND YOUR INSIGHT.
kiwi lady
November 30, 2003 - 02:36 pm
I have to say if I were Gandhi I too would wear my native dress in Britain - kind of a pay back for the attitude of the Raj in India!
I can be a bit of a stirrer at times!
MountainRose
November 30, 2003 - 11:21 pm
Thanks everyone for the discussion. It's been enlightening and even though this was the third time I have read his autobiography, I saw new things in it with your helps and insights.
Malryn (Mal)
December 1, 2003 - 05:56 am
I hope you both have the courage of your convictions and can stand some slings and arrows!
Thank you, ELLA and GINNY, and all the interested and interesting participants here. It's been a fine discussion I won't soon forget.
Mal
Ginny
December 1, 2003 - 07:05 am
And so we come to the close of our study of the autobiography of Gandhi, each of us with his own diverse perspectives and thoughts. I'm not sure we agree on Gandhi's contributions but we've enjoyed discussing our own perspectives of him, and have learned a great deal from all of the different sources brought to the table, this has been a real feast!
We hope that some of the things we've talked about have been new to you and that you have profited from the discussion, it was a good one. Thank all of you for all the effort you put in it.
Gandhi is that rare great man held in universal esteem, a figure lifted from history to moral icon…He stamped his ideas on history, igniting three of the century's greatest revolutions—against colonialism, racism, violence. His concept of non violent resistance liberated one nation and sped the end of colonial empires around the world. He shines as a conscience for the world ….Johanna McGeary. (Time Magazine)
To millions unborn at the time of his death, Mahatma Gandhi's name continues to resound with inspirational powers unique to our century. . In a world of plastic modernity and growing insensitivity to violence and pain, to the broadening chasm between the pleasure-loving wealthy and the hundreds of millions of people who never sleep a night without hunger, Gandhi's passionate life and his message of love, redolent more of Via Dolorosa than modern Delhi, inspired global admiration and emulation. His work and his spirit awakened the 20th century to ideas that serve as a moral beacon for all epochs.
No populated portion of the world today is unaware of Mahatma Gandhi or immure to the global impact of his life. In Hiroshima, Bejing, Moscow, and Madrid his autobiography is read: his smiling face and naked torso are familiar to millions who have never visited India an know no other Indian leader's name or visage.
In Porbandar and Bombay, Ahmedabad, Calcutta and New Delhi, the buildings in which Mahatma Gandhi was born, lived, worked and died have become preserved as national monuments and museums, where tourists and pilgrims with faith in truth and love come to pay their respects. In New Delhi, Birla House has been turned into a museum, repository of Bapu's last few precious possessions and the blood drenched khadi he wore when assassinated.
Outside that once elegant building, India's peasant poor and landless Harijans squat to mourn him every day. They arrive by bus, on bike and on bare feet, praying as they move through the rear porch of the great house to circle the specially covered spot in the garden where a Mahatma was murdered…
Judith Brown has concluded, "He was caught in compromises, inevitable in public life. But fundamentally he was a man of vision and action, who asked many of the profoundest questions that face humankind as it struggles to live in community….As a man of his time who asked the deepest questions, even though he could not answer them, he became a man for all times and all places." –Stanley Wolpert 2001.
Let's end with the man himself, a visionary in a world of limited vision, an idealist up against millions of baser minds and great military powers, let's hear from Gandhiji himself:
He who devotes himself to service with a clear conscience, will day by day grasp the necessity for it in greater measure, and will continually grow richer in faith. The path of service can hardly be trodden by one who is not prepared to renounce self-interest, and to recognize the conditions of his birth. Consciously or unconsciously, every one of us does render some service or other. If we cultivate the habit of doing this service deliberately, our desire for service will steadily grow stronger, and will make not only for our own happiness but that of the world at large.
Prayer is not asking. It is a longing of the soul. It is daily admission of one's weakness…It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart."
Thank you all for your wonderful part in this discussion.
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