Good Life ~ Ben Bradlee ~ 9/00 ~ Autobiography Export

A GOOD LIFE
~ by Ben Bradlee ~

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"The former executive editor of Washington Post offers an account of his path from Harvard to the Pacific war, from postwar Paris to Watergate. A portrait of a charmed life, an historical account of our century since the war, and a fascinating look inside the world of newspapers and reporting." - the Readers Catalog

"It would be ungrateful of me not to pause here to acknowledge the role of Richard Milhouse Nixon in furthering my career. It is wonderfully ironical that a man who so disliked-and never understood-the press did so much to further the reputation of the press and particularly The Washington Post.In his darkest hour, he gave the press its finest hour." - Ben Bradlee, Editor, Washington Post

LINKS
Washington Post Story || Kerosene Journalists || Booknotes on C-Span || New York Times Book Review

Discussion Leaders were Ella and Harold

SCHEDULE

Sept l - Chapters 1- 5
Sept 10 - Chapters 6- 10
Sept 17 - Chapters 11-15
Sept 24 - Chapters 16-19

Good Morning, Harold. Just dropped in to welcome any visitors that might stop by to say Hello! It's cloudy here but who can complain - it's summer everywhere.

Ella: Did you get bogged down in any parts of this book? I have always been fascinated by Ben Bradlee, since the Watergate days, but I'm having a hard time maintaining interest through these Harvard years pages. He seems to be a spoiled, rich kid who's enjoying now retelling every detail of his "childish" (to me...) young adult years.

I hope it gets more interesting soon...he's losing my interest quickly!

š...jane›

Jane - yes, I understand! He had a privileged life when young, with the help of wealthy grandparents, as his parents were somewhat inconvenienced by the depression.

Why does every person who writes an autiobiography feel the need to start at their birth, with pics of parents, etc., as if we all cared!

Why do we read biographies anyway? It is because they connect to our lives in some way, do you agree?

Keep at it, Jane, it only gets better and better, you're only on Chapter Two, and then you come to the Paris years (which I found interesting because I have read Art Buchwald's book - you'll see he mentions Art and the two become lifelong friends) in which he meets everyone who was later to be in the news business.

OK, Ella, I'll keep slogging along...but I agree with you.

š...jane›

Gosh, it's slow on the Internet today - I waited forever to post that msessage - somehow it got on there!

Jane - it's the next chapter - the Navy years, in which Bradlee grows up quickly, didn't all those young men? He says somewhere in that chapter that those years were perhaps the best years of his life - even today!

Hope you can remember the book by the time September rolls around - it's a long, long time!

I'm wondering if I will...maybe I can check it out again closer to the discussion if I can get it read now....or keep some notes, etc., since I'm using a Library copy.

š...jane›

That's what I'm doing, Jane. I read it once, liked it and then am returning it. I'll get it again closer to September so it will be on hand when we are discussing it. Is the copy you have the paperback edition? Mine is but it's a larger book and the print is very readable - they had several copies, I'm not sure why I got this one.

Yes, Ella, it's a large paperback...more like 8 1/2 by 11 size.

š...jane›

Hello Ella and all. This discussion does indeed promise to be a most interesting one. This is a wonderful book discussing much of the history of a big chunk of the 20th century from an observer who occupied a choice box seat while the major scenes were played. I look forward to participating and welcome all to join us.

I have one comment on the Harvard years as mentioned above. True Bradlee was a rich kid. When he was at Harvard, most of the students were from rich and famous families. These were termed “Silver Spooners” in a 1940’s Robert Hutchins essay I remember reading in freshman English (not Harvard). Obviously, however, Bradlee was a smart “rich kid,” and I suspect he would have gained entrance even in today’s more competitive environment

Hi Harold - Was it that same Hutchins who coined the phrase "born with a silver spoon in his mouth?" I'm thinking of different ways that was used when I was young during the depression years. Perhaps because so many people we knew were struggling desperately then, that term was derogatory in nature, undeservedly or not. Rather as if those people who had money had obtained their wealth through "unreputable means."

How have you heard it used?

Also, I'm thinking of what I said earlier and although, true to some degree, is not the only reason we read many biographies. Not all connect in any way to our lives.

Why do you read biographies?

The Robert Hutchins, I was referring to became the president of the University of Chicago at an unheard of early age of under 40. This was in the 1930’s. He is remembered for ending varsity football and Big 10 affilation at the school and for engaging the school in the WWII research that led to the development of the nuclear bomb. Perhaps he did not live real long as I don't remember hearing much about him in the post war years.

I remember the essay well, because it was my very first college assignment. The essay concerned class in the big universities of the day. The highest class he called “the Silver spooners.” They were the sons of the old aristocratic rich so secure in their social position that they might occasionally stoop to be friendly to the lowest class, those working their way through school. In contrast the second level group, the children of the newly rich could never jeopardize their newly won social toehold by showing the least friendship to the poor.

How have you heard it (Silver Spooner) used?

I think I have understood it very close to the way you described..

Why do you read biographies?

I’m not sure I read biographies because I want to know about the individual. I think I’m more impressed with the person’s surroundings than with the individual. I read them more to observe how they interacted with others, and others with them.. Sometimes as was the case with the Ambrose book, “Undaunted Courage”, the reader might not realize it is a biography. If Ambrose had not said in the preface that it was a biography of Lewis, I don’t know that I would have considered it one. Of course it did give more details regarding the early life of Lewis than of Clark. Likewise it followed Lewis during the remaining few years of his life after the return. Another favorite biography is the Ludwig 1930’s biography of Napoleon. I read this many years ago as a history of early 19th century Europe.

Would you consider Bradlee to be a "silver spooner?"

Hutchins' assessment of them probably is correct; however, the robber barons would be considered "newly rich" and I think of the great things many did for America during or after their lifetime, e.g. Carnegie, Morgan, etc.

In thinking over Jane's comments about the early life of Bradlee, I remember (and not having the book I can't quote it) he said as a result of private schools and a Harvard education he was "deprived" of knowing any minorities or of how other "classes" of people lived. I put those words in quotes as I'm sure they are not exact words. But the impression lingers that he wanted to tell the reader how naive and ignorant such an education can leave a graduate as he leaves that world and enters into real life.

Did you get such an impression, Harold? If so, there was certainly some justification for the two early chapters.

Jane, have you arrived at a more interesting place in the book?

As to why we read biographies, David McCullough addressed this Sunday on C-Span and said that a good writer will present "his world" to the reader as well as himself. Harold, you are one with McCullough in what you said earlier.

I'm reading Conversations with Kennedy by B.Bradlee (1975) and many of these stories he put into the book we are discussing. There are a few that shed more light on the friendship between these two. Interesting, in the light of his son's magazine, that Kennedy was fascinated by the press and they by him. A couple of paragraphs at the beginning:

'What makes journalism so fascinating', President Kennedy once said to me, 'and biography so interesting is the struggle to answer that single question: What's he like?' Well, John F. Kennedy was like this....at the times and places we saw each other ....... graceful, gay, funny, witty, teasing and teasable, forgiving, hungry, incapable of being corny, restless, interesting, interested, exuberant, blunt, profane, and loving. He was all of those....and more.

His brief time in power seems to me now to have been filled more with hope and promise than performance. But the hope and the promise that he held for America were real, and they have not been approached since his death."

An interesting comparison of FDR and Kennedy and the press, but I'll save it for later, or am I talking/posting/typing too much?

The Kennedys were and are great press, aren't they?

Ella: I haven't gotten back to Bradlee...will try to make more progress tonight. I read biographies only of people who fascinate me, but I doubt a couple of things Bradlee has said so far. He talks about $4,000 from his trust being only a little more than his salary as an Ensign....in ..what 1942? I find it hard to believe that Ensigns made $4,000 or anywhere near it in 1942.....when my first job after college as a teacher...in 1963 was for $4500. a year. Something doesn't sound right...or his memory is very faulty...or the Navy paid VERY well in 1942!

š...jane›

Hi Jane! We're posting together! That does seem illogical - is an Ensign a "hotshot officer" in the Navy and would that be right for a year's pay? I have no idea. Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a trust though? Aren't we all jealous of such people?

I think of one sister who died some years ago, divorced from an alcoholic husband, and who never had much in life and was so looking forward to her "social security check" - somewhat like a trust but one that had been earned - coming in once a month. She never made it that far in life.

An Ensign is the lowest commissioned officer in the Navy, I believe...what the "kids" are when they finish ROTC...or the Naval Academy...comparable to a 2nd Lt in the Army, as I recall.

š...jane›

Just yelled to my husband who was an enlisted seaman in the Navy and he can't remember, but thinks by the time he got out in 1945 he might have been making $1200 a year - heavens! He tells me to look it up on the Internet as I do everything else - haha.

Ella: That sounds right...and why I question Bradlee's $4,000...for an ENSIGN. I finally got through the war stuff...and see he's now talking about a job paying $30.00 a week...that sounds more like it too...$1560 a year...and no paid vacations/sick leave. I tried to find salaries for 1942...and had no luck..found archived agendas where these were "discussed" but not the discussions. I did find prices for meat in 1942...if you could get it, I guess...and sirloin was $0.24 a pound.

š...jane›

In message 12 Ella Wrote:

In thinking over Jane's comments about the early life of Bradlee, I remember (and not having the book I can't quote it) he said as a result of private schools and a Harvard education he was "deprived" of knowing any minorities or of how other "classes" of people lived. I put those words in quotes as I'm sure they are not exact words. But the impression lingers that he wanted to tell the reader how naive and ignorant such an education can leave a graduate as he leaves that world and enters into real life.

Did you get such an impression, Harold? If so, there was certainly some justification for the two early chapters

I'm not sure I read the Bradlee Harvard chapters close enough to answer the questions raised by Ella above. Like I said I did one of my skim reads of this book some months ago. This means I skimmed portions and concentrated on areas that aroused interest.

I will add that under the Hutchin definition of a "silver spooner," the older Kennedy’s (i.e., John and Robert) would not have qualified for that status. Their position was too recently obtained at the time they were in college. And their father was after all a mere upstart contractor who made a lots and lots of money. Today of course by the 1930's-40's standard, the present generation Kennedy’s go right to the top.

Also I suspect that if Hutchins was writing the essay to day he would re-arrange his rankings in a way that would lower the status of the old aristocracy a notch or two. Perhaps money speaks louder today. Yes I think it would be hard to put the Gates, Ellison, etc kids in anything but the top. A triumph of popular democracy?

As a Petty Officer 3rd Class in early 1945, I made $78.00 a month. A Seaman (private) made $50.00, A Seaman 2nd (Private 1st Class), $54, Seaman 1st (Corpal), $66.00. I remember it well.

Also let me suggest that each of you who are following this discussion and who plan to participate in the Bradlee discussion, comment on any bioography that you have read in the past. It might be a book that you liked and perhaps influenced your later life, or maybe you did not think the reading real worth while. Either impression is ok. I think this would make an interesting introduction to the Bradlee review this fall.

Yes, Harold, great idea! We don't want to get into the Bradlee book yet and I would love for people to tell me a good biography to read. I do hope some folks will stop by.

Meanwhile, off the top of my head I can think of the two by Buchwald (perhaps he's written more by now about his life) which I loved reading: LEAVING HOME and I'LL ALWAYS HAVE PARIS. If you've ever read his columns you know him as a witty and funny fellow, but behind the mask lies a few sorrows.

Also any book about Andrew Carnegie is good, as is Clarence Darrow (I think the one I read was by Irving Stone), but my memory often fails me.

We have read and archived 2 books by David Niven, surprisingly good, and Katharine Graham's book is wonderful (also archived here).

If Ginny stops by, she can recommend all those books about O.J.Simpson and his trial - I think she's read every one ever written. And she's reading one now about Thomas Beckett (quite a variety, that - one beheaded and the other acquitted).

There are 3 autobiographies currently on the NYTimes best seller nonfiction books: John McCain, George Bush and John Glenn - which would you like to read, if any?

Harold: Hutchins, therefore, applies "silver spoon" to the Old Money...and would include who??? Astors, duPonts, Rockefellers, Whitneys, maybe...sort of the Old whatever it was called...Social Register? and not the nouveau riche generation...but their grandchildren or great-grands if the money was still around.

Ella: I'm not much of a biographer reader, so none of the three politicians appeals to me, and I think I've heard most of lives of John and Annie Glenn, having attended Muskingum College during the year of his space "trip", etc.

š ...jane›

Hi Ella Know all I care to know about John Glenn. I'll let you know if someone interests me.

HI ALICEM! Who just happens to be my next-door neighbor and I just helped her to register for Seniornet. Gosh, they wouldn't allow her to use her real name (it's already taken, they said) so it's going to be funny calling her AliceM.

But Welcome! Enjoy all Seniornet has to offer, AliceM.

Jane - politicians do not interest me particularly either, unless another FDR or a Kennedy came along and then the crises during their administrations added to their mystique, don't you think?

A Clarence Darrow doesn't interest you? The monkey-scopes trial? The movie was "Inherit the Wind" wasn't it?

Jane Message #22

Absolutly! Hutchins would have liked your term, "old money." I agree with your necessary exception regarding later generation, "If the money was still around." The money was a necessary element.

I may be unavailable until Friday as I have a project for tomorrow that will take some preperation time.

Harold, I've finished the little book CONVERSATIONS WITH KENNEDY by Bradlee and at times their conversations are amazingly simple when you consider where they are sitting (often the White House ), and particularly poignant during the year 1963 when Bradlee saw quite a bit of Kennedy and they often talked about the coming election in '64.

Do you think it a good idea, while we are in a period of waiting, to reflect on Kennedy and his 1000 days in office? I don't think that's been done in the BOOKS before and some people might enjoy discussing him? I could make an announcement in the Library and put it in the heading if you like - also I could type in a few of Bradlee's reminiscences from time to time. Some of them are unbelievable!

Twice Bradlee and Kennedy mentioned a book about Eisenhower entitled THE ORDEAL OF POWER by Emmett Hughes. Have you ever heard of it? Sounds interesting.

Ella (Message #26)

Harold, I've finished the little book CONVERSATIONS WITH KENNEDY by Bradlee and at times their conversations are amazingly simple when you consider where they are sitting (often the White House ), and particularly poignant during the year 1963 when Bradlee saw quite a bit of Kennedy and they often talked about the coming election in '64.

This book has become a primary source for Kennedy Biographers. In the autobiography, Bradlee remarked that he should have entitled it, “The Future Kennedy Biographers Source Book.”

Do you think it a good idea, while we are in a period of waiting, to reflect on Kennedy and his 1000 days in office? I don't think that's been done in the BOOKS before and some people might enjoy discussing him? I could make an announcement in the Library and put it in the heading if you like - also I could type in a few of Bradlee's reminiscences from time to time. Some of them are unbelievable!

While I have not read any post 1963 Kennedy biographies, I have been exposed to the Kennedy news up to the present date. I believe your plan will generate interest in the pre discussion period. Also the Kennedy interface including the thousand day Presidency will certainly come up during the discussion this fall. Go for it!

Twice Bradlee and Kennedy mentioned a book about Eisenhower entitled THE ORDEAL OF POWER by Emmett Hughes. Have you ever heard of it? Sounds interesting.

I have not read this book though in the periphery of my memory I do recall hearing of it. Most of my reading on Eisenhower concerned his role as a WWII commander. I was never real impressed with the Eisenhower concept of the Presidency. He treated it too much like the pre-WWII model of a corporate CEO but of course he was in poor health at this time. Again sources like this book are great things to bring up during the discussion.

Did you see these qualities in President Kennedy?

"The guest list at these (White House) parties is truly fascinating, for it rarely, if ever, includes members of the Irish Mafia, the Irish Catholic political associates, generally from Boston, who are in many ways closer to Kennedy, personally as well as professionally, than the swingers or the intellectuals or the reporters. This is part of the fundamental dichotomy in Kennedy's character: half the "mick" policitian, tough, earthy, bawdy, sentimental, and half the bright, graceful, intellectual '"Playboy of the Western World" and there aren't many people who cross over the dividing line." - Conversations with Kennedy

Yes, but I think that the "earthy, bawdy" part was well-protected from the ordinary American's knowledge by the Press Corps, who, I believe...to a man, was aware of just how "earthy and bawdy" things were at the White House.

š ...jane›

Jane, I agree he wasprotected by the press corps - Do you think the day of protecting the president's earthier side is over? Do you think if a president swears today, that will appear in the press? How clean does a conversation with the president have to be?

However, as much as I knew his Irish background and old Joe's Irish "mafia" background, I didn't see this in Kennedy. The public saw the bright, witty intellectual from Harvard with his eastern accent, and he chose his bride well didn't he? To lend grace and elegance to the picture.

Wouldn't you have thought his Catholic Irish friends would have been a bit insulted by not being included in the White House parties?

Harold - what do you think of this statement about Kennedy and the face that he showed in public?

Ella: A President's swearing, etc., doesn't bother me...it's the nude swimming in the White House Pool with the "ladies" who were brought in the back door....and the "girlfriend" with the Mafia "ties to the Crime bosses"...ie., also the crime bosses "girlfriend"...and the Hollywood Brother-in-Law bringing in additional "stars and starlets" for "fun and games" and that kind of thing that I find unpleasant.

I personally don't put the behavior I've mentioned in the same league with an "expletive deleted."

š ...jane›

And what book have you been reading, Jane? Hahaha

In Conversations Bradlee told of an incident in the White House where J.Edgar Hoover and Kennedy were looking and discussing a picture of a very attractive scantily dressed "supposedly communist spy." But, otherwise, although the book speaks openly of the Kennedys, it is not a tell-all book.

Bradlee, however, "states" that he never knew of the Kennedy affirs until years after his death and then found it hard to believe. And this from a man who admits to a few himself.

I wonder how much we ever really know about any of these figures? I can remember my grandmother talking in hushed tones about FDR. That of course was before it was generally known about his lady love there at the Little White House.

But the people around Georgia knew but they didn't, for some reason, articulate it.

I always felt sorry for Eleanor Roosevelt, maybe we should read her life sometime.

Anyway, in answer to question #1 up there:

Do you think Jackie was our most gracious first lady?

Now there's a question. What does "gracious" mean? She showed an aura of elegance and taste, she spoke French, she obviously had good taste in decorating and the arts. She was drop dead gorgeous, that's for sure, in a strange way.

But gracious? I liked Barbara Bush better. She seemed to me to be the real thing whereas Jackie did not. Even Ethel wondered where Jackie got "that voice" that breathless voice she affected. I remember reading that the day of a party she spent the day in bed so as to be fresh in the evening.

If graciousness is the art of making people feel at home, having been invited to the White House by neither, I would think I would feel more comfortable around a person secure in her own skin than I would one who whispered and spoke incessant French?

But that's just me.

Let's do a series on Presidential wives some time!

ginny

There was always something about Jackie that rubbed me wrong. Yes, I loved looking at pictures of her. Yes, I think she did a fine job raising her children. But when I watched her White House tour, I couldn't get over her whispering, ever-so-correct voice. Does any real woman talk like that, I wondered. Of course, the proof was right in front of me. And yet. . . . .

I agree that Jack picked his wife well considering his planned career in politics.

HAHAHA! The incessant French, yes I remember! The whispery voice! Remember those White House tours? I had to turn the TV way up I recall! The clothes! The rumors that Jackie wore her underwear just once...and then threw them away! That she wore size 10 shoe...that made a lot of us feel so much better, more glamorous! Funny what you remember! These were all superficial things..

The important things...the sorrow we all felt when baby Patrick died after living only a few days...the dismay that Jack wasn't with her when he was born and then learning that he was pleasure-sailing with some lovelies while she delivered the baby... And now the stories that she knew about these women all along. What to think of that?

Lots of Camelot images that turned into something less ideal as stories came out about the womanizing and the type of woman he cavorted with! I'm not sure what is worse for a president to do...take advantage of a young intern who is all to happy to play along or the dangerous types with Maffia connections or high-visibility stars with serious emotional problems! The latter seem to put the country at a higher risk, don't they? By the way, Joyce Carol Oates has a really interesting biography on Marilyn Monroe that might be worth exploring sometime. She lives in Princeton - teaches there I am told. She'd be interesting to meet, don't you think? Certainly you have read at least one of her strange books? I'm sure "Marilyn" would be fascinating reading...

One of our greatest Presidents? Who has suggested that? He was only in office 100 days and really, what were his accomplishments during that time? He will go down as the charming, polished young president, much loved and admired...who was assassinated. I'm not even sure that the first part will be remembered, maybe just the assassination! Many still believe the link between Cuba and the assassination is very strong and that someday, when Castro is out of Office and relations have been restored we just may learn about that. One of the greatest? I don't think so. Do any of you?

Joyce Carol Oates has also written a play, Miss Golden Dreams, which I saw two weeks ago. It is scenes from Marilyn's life, starting at the time she had the nude photos taken. In said play is the most savage indictment of JFK that I have ever seen/read.

Maryal

Then the name of Joyce Carol Oates book is Blonde. I didn't know if that was the title of the book or the play...but now I do!

Joan P---Yes, title of biography is BLONDE.

I was a young mother when Kennedy was assassinated, greatly preoccupied with my kids and definitely NOT following things political at all! HOWEVER, I remember to this day Every Step of that televised funeral march! Whenever I think of JFK, THAT is the image that springs to mind.

Can we believe the stories of white house frolic and fun that came out long after his death? I suspect exaggeration but who's to know?

GINNY - The word "gracious" can mean anything, of course, but your description of it would be close to mine. From all I read and heard about her when she was in the White House, she was an excellent hostess and representative of our country in the White House and abroad. I never read anything negative in that respect did you? I admired her for all she did to historically restore the White House - I think she spent much time contacting people, finding pieces that belonged there, and raising the necessary funds. Bradlee mentions a piece of unique and very old historic piece of furniture (I forget exactly, but I could look it up)that his family offered and it was accepted.

JOAN - I suspect we didn't know Jackie at all; certainly that persona that she projected in the White House tour was not the real woman. Who could possibly put on that "act" forever, and in my opinion it was acting - she should have had a better coach. I've never read a biography of her, but I do know her parents were divorced and she had an alcoholic father, not the best start in life, even though she had all the advantages of wealth. Does anyone know if she and her mother were affectionate? Did you feel you knew her from the little we saw of her in public life? She shunned publicity, of course, and was greatly concerned over the children after the president's death, one of reasons for her marriage to Onassis - the security he could give her from the press hounding her and the children. In my opinion, she was a very complex person, difficult to get acquainted with and, possibly, suspicious of most friendships because of the position she was thrust into, which was unexpected when she was first married.

In the CONVERSATIONS we get a much better picture of her. I'll give a couple of examples of the wife and mother below. As for JFK's part in history, I think it will be an enduring one. The first Catholic president (and there was concern in the country about this as I remember), a young and vital president, he gave the country confidence in itself, he definitely got the space program off the ground (pun not intended) and if for no other reason - although I think there are others - he was the product of a family that lives on and on politically and historically. And the assassination - Bradlee speaks very movingly of being with Jackie afterwards. I'll also put some of those references in.

Thanks, MARAL and JERYN for your comments. Come back and visit more as we discuss Kennedy in more detail. Here's a couple of excerpts from Conversations with Kennedy

Now in the White House, they both feel Caroline is unspoiled……….but they are appalled by the national hunger for news and pictures of her and John-John, and wonder if they can keep her unspoiled. Kennedy is as proud as any parent of his daughter. Once Jackie framed a particularly gaudy group of finger paintings, blobs of red, yellow, and blue, and presented it to the president as the latest effort of their painter friend, Bill Walton. Jackie said shyly that she had paid $600 for it. Kennedy was stunned, not so much by the price as by the far-out abstract turn Walton had apparently taken. When Jackie confessed that the artist was Caroline, he said simply, 'Pretty good color.' John-John and JFK quite simply break each other up.

Somehow we got on the subject of people in the administration who had gotten swelled heads as a result of their association with the New Frontier. Jackie said there were only two by her count: Dick Donahue (Richard Donahue, an assistant to Larry O'Brien in the legislative liaison operation), and Jack McNally, who worked in a low-level job in the White House transportation division. Kennedy defended Donahue strongly, and dismissed McNally with a flick of his finger. Donahue was leaving, he said, because he had eight children and simply had to go out and earn some money.

Don't you like the mischievousness of giving Caroline's framed blobs of paint to her husband? And the fact they both knew the importance of "being on the inside" - whether it was they or anyone else - and laughing at it, which they did often. I don't they either one took themselves seriously.

Ella--You make some wonderful points about Jackie. I have read a little about her childhood. She was trememdously devoted to her alcoholic father, BlackJack Bouvier as he was called. Their are a number of photographs of her with him. In addition to being a drinker, he was also a womanizer. There's a photo of him with Jackie's mother, before the divorce, and with his mistress at the time. He is sitting next to his wife, leaning on a fence, or maybe sitting on it, with his arm behind her back, holding the hand of the mistress. I wish I could remember her name. Yes, Jackie had enormous wealth but from what I have read, she was very lonely as a child.

Maryal

Thanks, Maryal for that information. Is it any wonder she didn't expect much from a husband, that she might have known about her husband's affairs and suspecting that most men were the same (heaven knows in Washington "womanizing" is always going on), made the choice that staying with Jack was as good as leaving and choosing any other. She did love her children very much and in all that I've read was a wonderful mother. Caroline and John, Jr., the little I saw or knew of them, seemed wonderfully natural and not at all "puffed up" (I'm not thinking well this morning and that's the only word I can come up with - help me someone!) with who they were - the famous former White House children of JFK and Jackie.

In Message #35 Joan Pearson wrote:

One of our greatest Presidents? Who has suggested that? He was only in office 100 days and really, what were his accomplishments during that time? He will go down as the charming, polished young president, much loved and admired...who was assassinated. I'm not even sure that the first part will be remembered, maybe just the assassination! Many still believe the link between Cuba and the assassination is very strong and that someday, when Castro is out of Office and relations have been restored we just may learn about that. One of the greatest? I don't think so. Do any of you?

As President, John Kennedy’s concept and his conduct of the office impressed me. His personal day-to-day command of the government was for me a refreshing change from the Eisenhower years where so much was left to the principal Department chiefs. As far grading the thousand-day administration, there were a few successes, but also notable failures. I think the principal success was his standing up to the Russians at the time of the Cuban missile crisis and on the question of Berlin. This kept the Russians from establishing a military base so close to our shore and saved the West from losing the Berlin toehold.. As to failures the Bay of Pigs invasion with out the necessary planned air support was a disaster and the administration was making no headway in the Congress for the passage of meaningful civil rights legislation. Finally the tragic end with the assassination followed as it was a few years later by the assassination of this brother, Robert Kennedy while a candidate for the 1968 nomination, has got to rank as the major National tragedy of the 20th century. The President’s death so shocked the nation that the National Congress did finally pass meaningful Civil Rights Legislation.

I was never much concern about the rumors of White House parties and escapades with Hollywood stars and mob connected characters. They were unsubstantiated rumors so far as I was concerned unconfirmed by the real professional press. I’m not so sure the 1960’s hands off policy of the press toward the President’s personal life in the White House was not the best policy. On this point I am sure Bill Clinton would agree.

I am inclined to agree with Joan’s assessment first quoted above that he should not be listed among our greatest Presidents. I certainly think his thousand-day administration will long be remembered as a generally successful term and certainly with much nostalgia because of the tragic circumstance that terminated his presidency.

Harold - I had forgotton about the Berlin crisis and his meeting with Kruschev - the fellow that was going to "bury us." What is that quote in its entirety, do you remember? I agree with you he will be remembered, and had he lived longer he might have accomplished more.

Am I remembering correctly that the CIA had planned that Bay of Pigs invasion before Kennedy was elected and Kennedy reluctantly (and later regretted it dearly) gave the Pentagon the go-ahead? It was not wholly his idea was it? You are a better historian than myself I'm sure - what can you tell us of the background of that invasion.

To supplement the Kruschev meetings with JFK, let me quote one or two paragraphs from Bradlee's book:

"At lunch one day, Secretary of State Dean Rusk boasted to Kreushchev about a new kind of experimental American corn that grew thre feet from seed in sicy day. Khrushchev interrupted Rusk by saying, "I know that's what you told Gromyko in Geneva, and he told me, but I wrote a friend of mine in America (the farmer K. had visited during his trip to the U.S) and he told me it wasn't true. Later, K. was boasting to Kennedy about Soviet feats, including a newly developed process of making vodka out of natural gas. Kennedy interrupted K. this time to tell him "That sounds like some of Dean Rusk's sixty-day corn to me." K apparently roared with laughter." - Conversations with Kennedy

We would all have loved the man!

I seem to have overlooked Ella's message 44 yesterday containing the following:

Harold - I had forgotton about the Berlin crisis and his meeting with Kruschev - the fellow that was going to "bury us." What is that quote in its entirety, do you remember? I agree with you he will be remembered, and had he lived longer he might have accomplished more.

My German is not that good, but it began with a short sentence supposed to be German saying : "I am a Berliner!" Apparently his German audiance got the point, but I have heard that the word he used for "Berliner" that was merely delivering the english word with a gutteral or Germanic pronunciation and it was not the word a German would have used. But tnere is no question that this was a real foreign policy achievment.

Am I remembering correctly that the CIA had planned that Bay of Pigs invasion before Kennedy was elected and Kennedy reluctantly (and later regretted it dearly) gave the Pentagon the go-ahead? It was not wholly his idea was it? You are a better historian than myself I'm sure - what can you tell us of the background of that invasion.

I think you are right in saying it had been planned by the CIA largely before Kennedy assumed office. As I remember it the plan originally called for US air support to cover the operation. It was only at the last minute that the US involvement was withdrawn. I do not remember why.

Thanks Harold! Do you remember Krushchev taking off his shoe and pounding the table at the United Nations? My memory fails me here - what is it he was so angry about? I'll copy one more Kennedy-Krushchev quip which shows Kennedy had the ability to be lighthearted in his relations with foreign leaders - a quality much needed in those days, particularly with the Russians:

"Another time Kennedy asked K. about about the two medals he was wearing. Kruschev bent his pudgy chin down to his chest and started explaining: "This one is the Lenin Peace Prize" and before he could describe the second one, Kennedy turned to the translator and said "Tell him I hope they never take it away from him." Kennedy reported the Soviet leader had thought this was a thigh-slapper" - Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

I don't know if you and I are the only ones in this discussion, Harold, but I'm enjoying it and learning too.

I've asked a couple of times in the Library if people would give their opinion as to whether Kennedy will survive in the history books other than an assassinated president. No one has yet to answer - perhaps, as Ginny has said, so many are on vacation. If anyone is reading, please speak up - we'd love to have YOUR OPINION!

Ella & Harold: I used to think that Kennedy would survive as one of the "better" presidents. Now, I'm not so sure if he'll be more than a paragraph or two in the history books. I remember when Jackie Kennedy was on so many magazine covers, etc....and today high schoolers say, "Jackie who? Who was she?"

š ...jane›

Jane - doesn't it seem impossible to our generation who remember so well her inimitable style - and she is still seen on TV programs now and then. Remember when JFK, Jr. died in the airplane crash, many programs did documentaries on his life and JFK and Jackie were so prominent. How could the young ones today not know? Of course, it depends on their age - many adolescents are not at all interested in news of any kind, except for what they are assigned to study. It is a wonderful period of life in many ways, but an abysmilly ignorant time also.

Are you saying, Jane, it is your opinion JFK will only have a paragraph in the history books? Gosh, I haven't seen an American History book for so long - and I would love to look at one that high school children study - just to see ourselves as others see us!

Ella: When the high school history books are to cover...for just US History, everything from background leading to 1492 and up through all the other momentous events...and some think the American Revolution should take more time...and some that the Civil War should take weeks...and then those who favor more time devoted to the Westward Movement and the Native Americans and those who would like to see more time to the two World Wars and why they happened...and then those who think the kids should spend more time studying Korea and Viet Nam and the Persian Gulf War...or the current situations around the world...from the Balkans to the Middle East, etc. there's not much time to devote to each individual president, actually.

It does get complicated!

But, no, I don't think JFK will end up as more than a paragraph or two.

š ...jane›

Particularly appro at the moment is this illustration of JFK and the press:

"A bone of contention between the press and presidential candidate involved crowd estimates. Once the Kennedy "apparatus" had announced that some JFK rally had been attended by 35,000 people, a figure which seemed to the traveling reporters to be substantially high. When I asked Kennedy how they had arrived that figure, he said to me and a half dozen other reporters: "Plucky (press secretary Pierre Salinger's nickname) counts the nuns, and then multiplies by 100." By so deprecating the crowd count, and making a joke about a subject that was sensitive, to say the least, Kennedy made the reporters laugh, and probably avoided a story about inflated crowd counts by his staff. " - Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

In the recent posts to this board, the discussion has gravitated toward the present position of the Kennedy’s in the popular mind since the time of the Kennedy administration. This has been termed in our press, the “Kennedy Mystique,” and sometimes has been compared to the mystique surrounding the royal family in the U.K.

From the standpoint of popular politics, the uncontested political approval has been limited geographically to the Northeastern states where the mere possession of the family connection is often the tantamount to election to high political office. However, when it comes to personal respect and admiration the mystique is apparent and strong in all corners of the country. This was evident from the universal public reaction to the recent untimely deaths of Jackie Kennedy and John Jr.

Questions for our continuing discussion are what are the sources of this continued popularity? Does it stem from respect for JFK and awe arising from the tragic termination of his term? How much did the family connection contribute toward the success of the current Kennedy’s who hold political office? Whould they have made it on their own? How has the several scandals, the near scandals, and at least two criminal indictments leading to criminal trials effected your opinion of the group.

Here are a couple of my personal comments. I do see a parallel between the Kennedy family mystique and the British Royals. There are some who are sincere and hard workings at their job seemingly earning the respect accorded them. On the other hand there are others perhaps weaker individuals with a pronounced propensity to misbehave. In both cases to paraphrase Bernard Shaw who applied these words to another social situation, they had “the maximum of temptation combined with the maximum of opportunity.” Individuals do react differently.

JFK will be more than a paragraph in subsequent history books because the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred during his watch. This was the closest we have come to nuclear war---so far.

Harold - great questions and we should take them one by one. I can't go so far as to say I would compare the "mystique" of the Kennedy administration to the royal family; however I do believe that during that period the whole country was mesmerized by JFK and Jackie and everything they did. They were such an elegant couple and charming and lovely to look at - they had it all, and for such a short time!

Old Joe had connections, of course, he did and not only that, he had millions of dollars to spread around whenever he needed more connections. Would they have made it on there own? I don't know! They had the Boston Irish Catholic and all the country's catholics behind them - it was time to break that religious barrier to the presidency. All the Catholics I knew were campaigning for him, plus his charm and wit made it so easy to admire him.

It was Mayor Daley of Chicago who put Kennedy's election over the top wasn't it? He said he would deliver and he did, by what means no one has ever found out. I know Nixon questioned that.

"The propensity to misbehave" - all the Kennedy males seem to have that, right? Old Joe set the example for the boys with his affairs with women and no doubt bragged about it.

I'll be back later when I think more about your questions, Harold.

MARAL - You think that one situation in the Kennedy administration will be the redeeming factor to keep Kennedy's administration in the history books? Of course, you are right, that was frightening and had both countries on the brink of nuclear war.

I saw that "so far" at the end of your sentence! Pray is all we can do.

I just got into this discussion, and it looks to be a good one.

Several days ago Ginny posted about discussing the President's wives. I like this idea very much - I have always been fascinated by biographies of them. It has to be the hardest "job" in the country, maybe the world. I admire most of the ones I have "known" in my lifetime - from both parties.

Marilyn (from N.C.)

WELCOME, MARILYN!

So happy you dropped into the discussion, pull up a chair and get comfortable. We are talking primarily about the Kennedys at the moment, but we would certainly entertain the idea of a First Ladies' discussion at some future time. Have you a book in mind? Would we discuss just the ones from FDR to the present or would you like to go back to the beginning to George and Martha's day?

What did you think of Jackie Kennedy? We've had diverse opinions here as you have read. Did you think the press was on her side during the White House years? What did you think of that White House tour she had on TV? We all seem to have memories of it - I don't recall one before or one after that one.

Just ordinary folks!

We served as insulation tonight for a family squabble over finances at the White House. Jackie had just learned that her husband was giving his salary to charity (actually Kennedy had been giving his salary to various charities since he entered Congress in 1947), and had told him early that day that she sure could use that money herself. A series of questions had evidently ensued, which led to a request for information from the president about the state of the family finances. He had the information in a letter, which he had with him and which had him boiling…not so much mad, as amazed and indignant. The item that had him really bugged was "Department Stores….$40,000.00." No one had an explanation, much less Jackie……….."once you're in here, this is a place where a fellow should at least break even, with all the services provided," Kennedy said. - quoted from Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

He was right!

ginny

Hi Ginny! Couldn't most of us do better than break even? Just give us a chance, huh?

A word about Jackie Kennedy-Onasis. My view of her changed over the years. With hindsight, I see that she inhabited the role of first lady in a pretty traditional way---one of support. (She left an active career as reporter/journalist when she married Jack.) And remember, she used a good deal of the whitehouse time raising and protecting tiny children. The middle part of her life included living with her children out of the country---as she believed that all Kennedys were in danger. Her focus on a serious career as an editor during the last long phase of her life---I see this time as a "coming into her own" phase. There she is with millions, seen almost as royalty, and what does she do? She goes to work every morning, works all day long (often the last one working late into the night), using words AND deeds to teach her children how valuable WORK is.

Very close friends always list incredible intelligence when they describe her. She was something of a book reading fanatic most of her life. It has even crossed my mind that she might have participated here---there are more than a few quotes from Caroline and ???someone else about her always needing to discuss the books she was reading. I think of her very short time as first lady as almost counterintuitive to the person she was. Too bad that the lingering pictures in our memories (mine, too, sometimes) are of the odd whispery whitehouse tours.

Hi BETTY! - Thanks for dropping by and giving an opinion of Jackie, which coincides with mine, although we are in the minority here I believe. I agree with much that you said - you really think there is a possibility she could have been on Seniornet??? Wow, wouldn't that be something, but, of course, we'll never know.

Even her son, John, Jr., said in his announcement to the press of her death that she had her family and friends and BOOKS around her at the end and she was at peace. Did you notice that?

The press made too much of her buying habits and the money that she spent - especially during the Onassis period of her life. We don't know how much of that is true, they were always following her and the only time they saw her was when she was shopping. She could and did hide from publicity throughout that marriage. How can we compare what she spent with other women who had very wealthy husbands? Much too much was made of all that, do you agree?

What of Bobby? Do you have an opinion? Would he have been elected? If so, what kind of a president would we have had in the office?

My vote goes to Jackie. I have always admired her and the way she conducted her life.

Jackie grew on me. At first, I thought she was an "airhead." As the years rolled on I came to accept her more and then out and out admire her.

~ Linda

Pat and Linda - Thanks for those opinions. We will be in the majority soon if we continue to gather statements such as these about Jackie.

And about Bobby?

"The Kennedy children had been carrying on during the cocktail hour. John-John, now two and a half years old, has a big thing about coming up to you and whispering a lot of gibberish in your ear. If you throw your head back in mock surprise, John-John roars with laughter until he drools. Kennedy keeps urging me to pick John-John up and throw him in the air, because he loves it so, and because Kennedy himself can't do it because of his back. 'He doesn't know it yet,' the president said, 'but he's going to carry me before I carry him." - Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

If anyone is reading this, you might be interested in the following information:

John Kennedy had Addison's disease (a withering of the adrenal glands), which was a terminal disease until maintenance treatment was discovered in 1940. That year, before Kennedy knew he had the illness, a British doctor discovered that it could be treated with cortisone, which would replace adrenaline... The cortisone was extremely expensive at the beginning, and the Kennedys kept quantities of the drug in safety deposit boxes around the world. Until artificial cortisone was developed years later, only a rich person could survive on the regime that JFK did -- day by day for the rest of his life.

In addition to that, he had a degenerative back problem that had nothing to do with football or the war -- those campaign stories were not true. It was a birth defect, and it was so bad that at a point in 1954, when he was a senator, he gambled on surgery in New York Hospital. He was told he probably would not survive because trauma triggers Addison's episodes. No Addisonian had ever survived traumatic surgery. But the back pain was so great, he said he would rather die than live with it. He did survive the operation, though he was in the hospital for nine months afterward. - From a program sponsored by PBS - "CHARACTER ABOVE ALL"

I knew about the Addison's disease, but thought the back problem was from a war injury. How about you? I

Ella---Very interesting about JFK's back. I did know about the Addison's Disease, but I thought the back problems were a result of injuries in the war.

However, the story of the congenital back problem makes a good deal of sense to me. I have had two back surgeries on my lower back, one when I was 35, the other at 58. The second operation was to fuse the spine. I too felt that even though there is risk to all surgery, I would rather die than go on in the kind of pain I was in. And I was bent to the side to the point where I had to use a cane.

When I talked with one of my recent team of surgeons, I asked him why my back had given me so many problems when I was so young (33). He said that disc material is supposed to last a lifetime and wear fairly regularly but that in some people it didn't. He suggested that my difficulties were congenital.

Thus it is relatively easy for me to believe that JFK also had a congenital problem and that it was explained away as the result of a war injury. I do know that he wore a back brace, was generally uncomfortable sitting and frequented a straight-backed rocking chair whenever he could. Had he gotten older, he very likely would have needed further surgery.

Maryal

MARYAL - That was risky surgery, and I'm sure you were frightened, but it sounds as though it was successful in your case. How long were you in the hospital, and how long were recuperating? The article said JFK spent 9 months there - I can't imagine that, can you? Is that when he wrote PROFILES IN COURAGE?

The article went on to elaborate that JFK could not have become president today because of those physical problems, which makes me wonder if any candidate for office has to undergo a physical examination. I rather doubt that, but it might be practical - what do you think?

Ella--Surgery went very well, thanks. Back surgery today is way improved since 1976 when I had the first one. Was only in hospital three days, but my daughter was here with me so I could go right to bed when I got home. Took a while to get myself back together, but I had an atrophied right leg from the way I walked. It took exercise (walking in the water) to bring it back. But I had the surgery in May and was teaching again in August. Poor Jack no doubt had to stay in a body cast for some time. I do remember photos of Jackie accompanying him into the hospital. He was on a gurney. However you spell that.

As to a complete physical for potential candidates, I don't know whether or not that should be required. Certainly it is true that in our present climate of exposing everything about candidates, JFK could not have successfully concealed his condition. But those were different days. We know all about Cheney and the heart attacks and the bypass surgery.

Maryal

I over heard a Kennedy name tossed about this afternoon as a possible VP candidate. It was the Kennedy lady who is Lt Governor of Maryland. I can't remember her name. I was in the laundermat and not paying much attention until I heard the word Kennedy. I think the background TV was on one of the Fox cable news channels. That would make an Interesting choice as I understand she is quite well respected in the East though she probably would not be much plus in the West. I think we might hear this weekend who the choice will be.

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, I believe, is her name. I've heard comments that she's the best politican of the Kennedy family at the moment, at least.

š ...jane›

Hi - Brand new to Seniornet and am excited about it! I've read Bradlee's book - and have always been fascinated by the Kennedy era. It was the first election I could vote in and really tried to study the issues, etc., Nixon came to our City and spoke of Pat's cousin owning a bar there! Kennedy came and talked issues. I was so impressed! When I see those old interviews with Jackie - I am impressed, because she was so very young - only in her early 30's and apparently so self confident, etc. I wonder!

Welcome Judy both to Seniors Net and this discussion. I hope you will join us often during the course of the review.

I too remember the Kennedy campaign in 1960. He and LBJ came to San Antonio and appeared one October afternoon in front of the Alamo. I remember sneaking away from my office walking the 6 blocks to Alamo Plaza with my Leica M3 camera. At the site I somehow shimmied up the cenotaph memorial in the center of the plaza to a ledge about 10 feet above the ground. I wasn't the only one on that ledge; there were 5 or 6 others. There was a dark line where our heels rested on the granite below our perch for the next 10 years. I had 35 mm color slide film and got one quite good slide of JFK and LBJ through a 135mm lens. They were side by side in the backseat of an open convertible waving to the crowd less than 50 ft away. I recently looked for the picture but could not locate it.

Yes, it's Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, and she is Lt.Governor of Maryland. There is certainly talk of her having a politicial future, but I think it will be governor of Maryland first. She is very well thought of. Or maybe she will run for Senator. I live in Maryland.

Maryal

I saw Kennedy in 1960 or so when he was in Mexico. He was in an open convertible in a motorcade coming down the beautiful Paseo de la Reforma with motorcycles on each side. I tried to take pictures and got bumped by a motorcycle. Not badly but it was an abrupt halt to my picture-taking. There were posters on street posts all over the city saying "Bienvenido". Those always seems like such better days, don't they?

~ Linda

WELCOME TO NEWCOMER JUDY!

We're so happy you found us and hope you stay a long while. As you can see, we have been discussing JFK and his family while we await the date of our Bradlee book. We are so happy you will be joining us at that time and please continue with our memories of the Kennedys - those golden days!

Maryal - Yes, I do believe the press would ferret out any physical problems a candidate for president would have; as you say, we certainly know all about Dick Cheney. I was comforting an old friend the other day about his heart surgery who seemed to think that was a reason for his fatigue and I remarked on Cheney who may be VP - and isn't at all worried about stress. However, I think as a wife I might be, what about you?

Harold and Jane - Whose daughter is Kathleen Kennedy Townsend? I've heard of her, but can't remember - was she Bobby's daughter?

Isn't it true today that a president is not allowed to ride in an open convertible?

Yes, Ella,...and she may be the oldest, but I'm not sure of that.

š ...jane›

Jane - tell us more about her! Any children? What does her husband do? Another Kennedy on the national level someday soon possibly? And here I thought the Bush generation was going to dominate in politics for awhile. Perhaps both?

Ella: I don't know anything about her private life. I've just heard her mentioned as a good politican and a "up and comer" in the political arena.

š ...jane›

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend is Bobby and Ethel's daughter and I think named after JFK's and Bobby's (et al) sister, also known as "Kick", who was killed in a plane crash (with her fiance) over England or France. I don't know any other information but I get the impression that she has quietly gone about her business and made a name for herself locally.

This sounds like a book I'd enjoy reading.

It is said that Kathleen Kennedy Townsend was told by her father only a few days after Jack Kennedy was killed that she had an obligation as the oldest in the family to serve her country in the way her uncle had. She is married to Professor David Townsend. A graduate of Harvard, Kathleen Townsend received a law degree at the University of New Mexico. Living in an area where the population was predominantly Republican, she decided to run for public office. There is a great deal more about her on the World Wide Web.

I lived in College Park, Maryland from 1952 to 1955 and went to Washington on the bus from there many, many times. I was DC one time and saw Jack Kennedy on the floor of the Senate. He was on crutches. Perhaps he'd had back surgery at that time.

Since I grew up in Massachusetts, I heard a lot about the Kennedy family, but since the people who raised me were Republican, there was much more talk about Leverett Saltonstall, who was a Republican senator in Massachusetts for a long, long time.

It just so happened that my college roommate was Leverett Saltonstall's niece. After I graduated, got married and moved to College Park, I met my roommate and her mother in Washington, and we went to the senator's home in Georgetown where we had dinner. He came in after the dinner was over, just back from his home in Massachusetts. He was beaming all over because one of his cows had given birth to a baby bull.

A cousin of mine, though, who lived in Bronxville, New York, knew Jack Kennedy as a kid. Joe Kennedy and Rose were neighbors of my cousin's family, so I heard a lot about Jack from her when I was quite young.

I admire Jacqueline Kennedy very, very much, by the way.

Mal

Thank you Malryn for the bio details on Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. My previous knowledge of her career was limited to the very favorable comment of an acquaintance who lives in Baltimore at the time of her election as Lt. Governor of Maryland. I have not heard any additional on Fox News comment that I mentioned in my last Friday Post. The speculation on the Demo VP candidate that I heard this morning centers on several U.S. Senators. Townsend's name was not mentioned. They now expect the choice to be announced this week, perhaps as early as Tuesday.

So It appears that both parties will have announced the VP candidate name before the convention even begins. I think this is a historical first. Apparently the Republican candidate was even nominated before the main guy. By tradition this is certainly "putting the cart before the horse." Of course it is perfectly logical under the present fact situation under which the party's candidate for president has already been chosen in the primaries last spring.

Thanks, Diane and Malryn for that information about Kathleen K.Townsend - I'll look her up on the Web. Perhaps, as someone earlier remarked, she needs more experience, possibly as governor, to make an impact nationally.

Malryn - do join us September lst as we begin discussing Bradlee's book - I think you'll like it and, of course, you'll like all of us who plan to be here talking about Bradlee, his life, and his part in Nixon and Kennedy's lives, - events that stirred our hearts back in those not-forgotten days.

Here's another quote from Bradlee's Conversations with Kennedy:

"May 30, 1963: We gathered on the south lawn of the White House about noon, all of us a touch hung over from last night's gaieties, for a helicopter ride to Camp David, our first ride in the president's chopper and our first trip to Camp David. With us were the David Nivens, Caroline and John-John, and their nurse, Miss Shaw, Skipper (the German Shepherd dog), Captain Taxewell Shepard, the president's naval aide, and a flock of Secret Service men. It was the beginning of an extraordinary day for us. The Nivens were charming, and though they had known none of us before last night, it was like a gathering of old friends. On the way up in the helicopter, the president turned to me and said "Do you think you could get used to this kind of life? Pretty hard to take, isn't it?"

What does this say to you about how JFK felt about the presidency?

The book doesn't say how the Kennedys got acquainted with the Nivens, but having read both of David Nivens' autobios, I'm sure his charm would add much to any gathering.

"Kennedy fingered his elaborately scripted place card at one point during dinner, and said out of the blue that he had a collection of these place cards signed by every head of state who had been honored at a White House dinner. The collection now amounts to some sixty cards, he said, as pleased as a small child talking about his bug collection." - from Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

Harold - do you have any comments to make about Gore's choice of his running mate? The commentators are likening this circumstance to that of Kennedy in breaking another religious barrier. Will it harm or help Gore?

You have such considered opinions and I'd like to hear what you think in reference to Senator Lieberman.

I hope to be a part of this discussio group. Read Bradlee's book when it was first published and shall reread it before September 1st. I LOVED it, every. page. But, then, I love biographies. More later, Mary

Harold - do you have any comments to make about Gore's choice of his running mate? The commentators are likening this circumstance to that of Kennedy in breaking another religious barrier. Will it harm or help Gore

I think he made a good choice so far as I am concern. The choice represents a further move toward the middle of the road, a move that will strengthen the party's position in the West. Also it will help eradicate any “Clinton stain” from the association of Gore in the Clinton administration. From what I know now, it probably improved Gore’s chances of getting this independent's vote.

As to the religion thing, I suppose there will be questions regarding the effect on U.S. foreign policy if somehow he did have to become President? The United States has interests on both sides of the Mid-east conflict. Recent U.S. diplomacy has supported a balanced policy seeking workable compromises between the interests of the conflicting parties. It will be interesting to see how Liberman and Gore address such questions during the campaign.

We are so happy to have you with us - it's going to be a great discussion! You and I are soulmates because I enjoyed the book also and love a well-written biography, and this is one that holds your attention and so pertinent to our age group. I doubt if a young person, say high school or college-age, would appreciate it as much.

I will be emailing all of those that have shown an interest in discussing the book with us, and we are also hoping that some of the veterans from the Greatest Generation group will join in as Bradlee devotes an entire chapter to his Navy experiences and at one point says those years possibly are two of the best he has ever lived.

Harold - yes, I wonder how Gore and Lieberman will address the Middle East conflict and would we be amiss if we said it will always be a conflict? Two great religions of the world and they cannot settle their difficulties.

Some of us were hoping that Gore might decide to choose a woman for V.P. thinking this might be the right time in history. Will it in our lifetime?

Last night on the History Channel the conspiracy theories were discussed and I must confess they gave me pause! How did Jack Ruby get into the basement where the police were guarding Oswald? Ruby, who owned strip joints, was never investigated. Why was the president's body not autopsied in the hospital in Dallas where there were very qualified forensic pathologists available, but instead taken to the Navy Hospital in Washington, D.C. where two men did the autopsy who were not forensic pathologists, but rather administrative personnel? Why did LBJ not want to do a thorough investigation into the death, and when Congress insisted, constantly rushed them through it? And many more - the Cuban question, the Mafia connection.

Are you aware that there have been 2000 books written about Kennedy's assassination and that two-thirds of America's citizens do not believe the Warren Commission's report? I heard that on C-Span one weekend, rather unbelievable isn't it?

Chief topic of discussion tonight were Jackie's recent trip to Greece and a stay on Aristotle Onassis' yacht……………There had been substantial press criticism of Jackie's trip. The president had promised it to her as a way of recuperating from the hammer blow of the death of her last child, but the papers had been full of stories about the brilliantly lighted luxuty yacht, gay with guests, good food and drinks, lavish shipboard dinners, dancing music, a crew of sixty, two coiffeurs, and a dance band. ……..Jackie told us that Onassis 'was an alive and vital person' who had started from nothing……..Jackie seems a little remorseful about all the publicity, including the NEWSWEEK story which she felt went a little heavy on hi-jinks. She said JFK was being 'really nice and understanding.' The president did reveal that he had insisted that Onassis now not come to the United States until after 1964, the best evidence that he thinks the trip is potentially damaging to him politically

Quoted from Ben Bradlee's book Conversations with Kennedy published 14 years after Kennedy's death. If you have been following this discussion you will know that Bradlee kept notes (with JFK's approval at the time) of conversations and visits with the Kennedys. It was understood between the two of them that JFK would have the right to edit before publication.

Kennedy told us that Jackie thought Gilpatric (Rozwell Gilpatric, under secretary of defence) was 'the second most attractive' man in the Defence Department. The first was obviously Bob McNamara. 'Men can't understand his sex appeal,' Jackie said. 'Look at them, 'she said to Tony (Bradlee's wife) pointing to Kennedy and me. 'They look just like dogs that have had a plate of food grabbed from under their noses.'- Conversations with Kennedy by Ben Bradlee

One thing Jackie and I would disagree on (among others). I never thought Bob McNamara was all that attractive - too pretty a fellow in my estimation.

Personally I never thought Mc Namara was pretty. I thought he was somewhat attractive in a sort of cerebral way. He looked rather scholarly . Mary

MARY - The first email I sent you came back - perhaps that address you have after your name is wrong, because the second email I sent did not come back and I used a webtv.net address - did you get the second email?

Bob McNamara made quite a stir with his book a few years and I can't remember the reason why, except it had something to do with Vietnam, but I'm wondering if that is right! Do you remember?

Maybe Harold will step in here and tell us. Yoo-hoo, Harold!

I remember the controversey when this book came out in 1995. The book was entitled, "In Retrospect" described in the current B&N catalog as follows:

In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam In-Stock: Ships 2-3 days. Robert S. McNamara,With Brian Vandemark / Paperback / Mckay, David / March 1996 Our Price: $13.50, You Save 10%

In the book McNamara one of the chief architects of the 1960's vietnam policy voiced the opinion that the Kennedy/Johnson administrations were wrong in making the all-out Vietnam committment that they made. He admits his major mistakes regarding Vietnam and also calls attention to the mistakes of others in the administration.

There are several NY Times Book reviews of the book available on line from the NY Times site. Registration is required to access these reviews, but it is free. To access these reviews and reviews on most other books published in the last decade, go to www.nytimes.com and complete the registration. On the homepage in the left column, click "Book Reviews." In the search box enter McNamara or "In Retrospect" Several review are available.

Oh, I have done that before, don't know why I didn't this time, Harold. Thanks for the reminder and thanks for the info on the McNamara book.

It was certainly Kennedy night last night at the DNC - how many times was Kennedy era evoked in one way or another! Many in the convention center had tears in their eyes, as did I, when Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg spoke, as we remembered all the tragedies associated with her family and the other Kennedy families. Although nervous at times, she did well I thought. I counted 5 direct descendant Kennedys, although there may have been more. Bobby had a son and daughter, Ted's son was interviewed, and Jack's daughter. Marie Shriver, one of the latest generation, was present - did you see any others that I missed?

They are all carrying on the tradition in public life that Jack started and he would have been proud of them. Larry King tried to drag out an answer from Kathleen K. Townsend about her future plans, but she sidestepped that deftly. She will go on, though, don't you agree?

I just recently saw this book by the former executive editor of Washington Post and since I've read the Washington Post most of my life I look forward to reading this one. I guess it's safe to assume it's available in paperback.

Just discovered this site an hour or so ago. Glad to see that my friends Jane and Maryal are aboard. Right now I'm distracted by that Russian submarine with 116 apparently-dying sailors aboard.

Haven't read the Bradlee book, and I'm ambivalent. Bradlee interests me, but (though I usually vote Democratic) not Kennedy. He spent something like 14 years in Congress without sponsoring a major piece of legislation, and his presidency was pretty devoid of accomplishment. (OK, Maryal, there was the Cuban missile crisis. But apparently he previously gave Khrushchev the mistaken impression he was a pushover.)

Anybody remember the famous ad (I don't remember who paid for it) with a picture of President Jerry Ford? It looked like it was touting the want-ad section of the Post. It said, "I got my job through The Washington Post".

Re military pay, which was discussed here in early posting. I made about $95 a month to start in 1953, later about $120 when I made corporal. But you get "three hots and a cot", with nothing much to spend it on but toothpaste and beer. I was stationed in Germany, and because Europe is so compact, I saw a lot, from Loch Lomond to the isle of Capri, on a corporal's pay. My folks thought I was playing poker and winning!

Ella: Ihave not received any messages from you . Just checked my address and it is incorrect but I dont know how to fix it. Any suggestions?

Mary: Go down to the row of "buttons" on this page...and you'll see "Preferences." Click on that...and there's the place for your email address. Change it to your correct one. If you want a second line under your name, you can add it too...where it says Second Line (optional), or you can leave it blank. Then go to the bottom of that page and click on Set Preferences. Your corrected email address should then show beneath your name.

š ...jane›

WELCOME EMMABARB! We'd love to have you join us in this discussion and the book is available in paperback. If you would just click on the Barnes and Noble icon (little sign) in the header, it will take you directly to a site where it can be purchased. If you buy the book from that site, Seniornet gets 7% of the purchase price - not a lot of money, but they do good things with it. It is also available in the Library, of course.

And we are also looking forward to your participation RAMBLER - STAY AWHILE!. I assure you Bradlee is worth reading! Your opinion of President Kennedy is shared by many but he did inspire many young people, started the fitness craze in the country and his Peace Corp is still a strong organization. It has given many young people a desire to help others not so lucky as to have been born in these United States.

I don't remember the ad for President Ford - but it certainly was apt!!!! Have you watched any of the conventions - Ford didn't look at all well that first night as I watched him being interviewed, it is surprising that those close to him didn't worry a bit more about his health. However, the latest reports have him doing fairly well in the hospital. What was your opinion of his presidency?? And you got the grand tour of Europe during your service in the Army - good for you and it cost so little. My nephew did the same after his Army service - he backpacked all over Europe, tenting much of the time.

Thanks, Jane, for helping Mary! Did you get your address corrected? But I'm surprised you didn't get that last email from me as it was not returned. I'll be emailing another soon and we'll get this problem straightened out. Why don't you email me, Mary, and then I will know the correct email and will reply pronto! You can click on my name in the heading of this page and my address is on the email form you'll get.

Welcome Emma Barb and the rambler. I do hope you both elect join us. The Bradlee autobiography is an easy and interesting read. His position with the Washington Post during much of the last half of the century gave him a front row seat for the many significant world events of the period. He tells us all in the book. I ran across the book in the big B & N store in San Antonio one rainy winter afternoon last December. I browsed a sizable portion that afternoon in the store and was pleasantly surprised when Ella asked me to participate here.

Hey Rambler regarding:

Anybody remember the famous ad (I don't remember who paid for it) with a picture of President Jerry Ford? It looked like it was touting the want-ad section of the Post. It said, "I got my job through The Washington Post".

Good question; was it the Washington Post advertising their want ads? I vaguely remember the ad with the wonderfully appropriate punch line. Anybody remember?

Again, hope both Emma and rambler elect to join the discussion.

Jane: Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! You helped me to solve my problem. This is all very new to me--- I dont know nothin' bout nothin' yet, but I'm learning. With help from nice people like you I'll make it. Take care everyone, Mary

Thank you Ella Gibbons for the welcome! I should be getting my book in paperback soon (I had to order it from my little bookstore). I'm not good with giving out my credit card online...sorry about that. I prefer having my own copy also rather than borrowing it from the Library. I always feel such pressure to return the book and can't write comments in the margins (ha).

Thank you Harold Arnold for welcoming me as well. The Washington Post goes way back for me. My step-dad was the accountant for one of the owners back in the 50's and I have a book she autographed as well as a painting she gave him. I also have a book published in 1905 for the Washington Post "Twentieth Century Atlas & the Illustrated World". It's very delicate and the size of the book makes it hard to handle. It includes many photographs and illustrations and a guide to Washington D.C. I wonder if anyone else is familiar with this publication?

MARY - Did you get the email I sent just about an hour ago? My name appears as "Ruth" on it as that is my "legal" name so you might not have recognized it. I'm going to ask Ginger, who is here in the Books, to email you as she also has webtv - she's a warm, friendly person and can help you get with any problems. Let me know.

No, EMMABARB, I am not familiar with the 1905 publication, but we read and discussed KATHARINE GRAHAM: PERSONAL HISTORY two years ago and we all thought it was a great book and it won the Pulitizer Prize for that year. I believe the family's name was Meyer, wasn't it? Did your step-dad work for Kay Graham's father? You may be interested in reading our discussion: It is at: Personal History

Have you read it?

Ella Gibbons, Yes, I read Katharine Graham autobiography. My step-dad knew her but I honestly don't know of the relationship of the lady whose accounting he did. Thanks for the clickable, I didn't realize SrNet had discussed the book....I'll certainly take a look at it. I just wish I had the time to read everything I want to.

I have added some links in the header above to things on the Internet regarding Ben Bradlee. You may want to read them prior to our discussion - I particularly like the "kerosene journalist" expression.

I think I would like to read Lance Armstrong's memoirs "Its Not About The Bike"...Tour de France champion and cancer survivor.

Ella: I enjoyed the Kerosene Journalist interview, and I am appalled by Geraldo Rivera and his ilk, but don't get the kerosene metaphor. Please explain.

EMMABARB! - that does sound good! Haven't heard of that one but I love nonfiction and honest stories of people who have done something with their lives - could it be because my own has been relatively dull? Hahaha - could be!

RAMBLER - my interpretation of the "kerosene journalists" would be they are always pouring kerosene on the smallest fire! Anything to make headlines, to sell newspapers, to command attention! What is your interpretation?

Do you agree that every since Nixon and his lies to the public and the Vietnam War that the public is more skeptical of the government in general, and the president in particular, and with that comes an unbelievability of what the press is telling us? Also the press no longer gives the president any privacy whatsoever - we know every detail of their lives - every physical exam they take, every wart they have - often more than we would care to know. Overload possibly?

Ella: Your "kerosene" explanation sounds good to me. I just couldn't make the connection.

I'm sure governmental lying pre-dates Nixon (though he and Clinton are notable examples) and surely goes back as far as government. We tend to think of people like Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln as saintly. While they were remarkable, I question their sainthood.

Nixon and others enjoyed much political success by portraying Democrats as soft on communism. Though I opposed the Vietnam War from the beginning, I think Kennedy and Johnson had no political choice but to try to disprove the "soft" accusation. Thus 58,000 American lives were lost (and far more Vietnamese).

Hard to tell if public distrust of government and press is at a high point now or if it has always been high.

Got the Bradlee book from the library, but can't promise to read it all.

If a book doesn't grab me in 40 or 50 pages, I give up. That happened with Kay Graham's book, and most people seem to have found it fascinating.

Hello Rambler - DON'T LEAVE US YET! You might want to skip the lst two chapters about his early life and Harvard and that business. Several people have commented they were boring - too much about himself and who cares if he was a rich kid with a prominent background!

Start with Chapter Three - his Navy experience and from then on - YOU WILL BE CAPTIVATED - not only by his adventures, but his style of writing, etc. Let me know if your attention isn't caught by that!

RAMBLER - a quote from Bradlee's book Conversations with Kennedy - in reference to what we were talking about earlier:

The press generally protected Kennedy, as they protected all candidates, from his excesses of language and his sometimes outspokenly deprecatory characterizations of other politicians. Kennedy sometimes referred to Lyndon Johnson, and truly without hostility, as a "riverboat gambler, and often as "Landslide" a reference to the time when LBJ was first elected to the Senate by a majority in the primary of 87 votes.

And another quote to illustrate how times have changed:

At one point the president got off on France and de Gaulle, how difficult de Gaulle was, how difficult it would be to find his replacement, and then he digressed on the French economy, which he said he had been studying. It's fascinating, he said. Here's a country getting a 5-l/2 percent annual increase in its GNP, while we struggle to get 2-l/2 percent. They have almost no unemployment, while we have too much. Kennedy then revealed that he had asked Walter Heller, the chairman of his Council of Economic Advisors, to send some CEA staffers to France for a report on how France was able to do it.

And if I didn't say it before I certainly agree with you that all presidents - all politicians - are just human like the rest of us - all the way back to Washington and Jefferson and none are saints! Goodness, the flap over Jefferson and his black mistress and all the children he fathered is proof enough for anyone, right?

Imagine if it was found that Clinton had a black mistress and him with the middle name Jefferson!!

Robby

Jefferson having a black mistress I can understand. But a slave? How does that differ from rape?

Rambler: I don't think it has ever been determined whether the relationship was mutual or not -- but we are off on a different subject from Bradlee, aren't we?

Robby

Ella: Your suggestion about skipping the first two chapters was a good one. I can always go back there if I find Bradlee that interesting.

Hi all; Today I got out my copy of Bradlee and shall start to reread it this afternoon. Am really looking forward to this discussion. Take care, Mary

I am, too, Mary! Ginger said she emailed you -

Are you interested in any more quotes from the Conversations with Kennedy book? Many sad ones after Kennedy was killed - shall I post anymore or forget it and just wait until we start the Bradlee book?

Let me know.

Any thoughts on how you want to discuss it? For example, shall we take just 5 chapters a week? It seems easier, in some ways, to do it like that; however, others just prefer to go at it from all directions.

Ella: As a newby who just got the book on Saturday, 5 chapters at a time sounds better to me. Maybe I can keep up!

Now, having commented, I must say I don't have the necessary experience to comment.

Hi Rambler, Ella and Robby. First--Rambler, keep on reading Bradlee. You will enjoy the book, I guarantee it. So far as being qualified to comment --- if you read the material you are as experienced as you need to be. Sounds a little like Des Carte, doesn't it? " I think therefore I am". Works for me. Ella, it seems to me if we take five chapters at a time we'll do better than if we just skip around. It's been awhile since I read this book but I remember a structure and progression which I think might be lost if we just jump around---only one opinion. Yes, Ginger did email me and very graciously proffered her help. I told her that the next time I screwed up I would avail myself of her offer. Perhaps with the generous offers of help I may learn to use this thing properly. Robby, I read your essay and thought it a stunning piece of writing. I haven't quite decided if I want to comment on it by posting the group or to email you--or would that be an imposition? All for now. Take care, Mary

Thank you, Mary W, for your compliment regarding my essay. Emailing me would not be an imposition. However, we try our best in SN to put most of our thoughts in public postings in the spirit of sharing.

Robby

This yellow in the heading is soooooo bright, it wakes me up when I come in here. Now all I need is some good music and a cup of coffee. (hee hee)

Hahaha EMMABARB! I can't provide those, but warm, bright color I can do! And warm welcomes, I can do! But we are all here together to have fun and as we always say in the B&L, there is no dumb question, no dumb answer, which always makes me feel good as I've done my share of those in my lifetime and also here discussing books.

Well, we have just made up our minds - we who are here - and those coming will have to decide for themselves. But that's what we'll do - five chapters at a time. Easier for us all I think! Shall I put a table in the heading, do you think? Like first week 1-5, Second week - 6-10, etc. Just to remind all of us?

I posted a notice of our book discussion in the GREATEST GENERATION today and hope some of those people will join us here! If you were born before 1930 (I think I have this right!) you are considered one of the GREATEST GENERATION! But if not, you're considered just the best, that's all! Hahaha Or we'll make up a name! I think the BABY-BOOMERS comes next - do I have that right?

Harold will be by soon and we'll both be sending out an email shortly to all who have professed an interest.

CONSIDERABLY!! And I do believe that I am a part of the greatest generation for so many, many reasons. Started rereading Bradlees book and it's a delight even the second time around. Take care y'll, Mary

My Ben Bradlee book hasn't come in yet. I did purchase the Lance Armstrong book though and am anxious to start reading that one too. I do most of my reading late at night or when I'm out waiting for something or other. It's my way of relaxing.

While not directly relevant to the Bradlee book, Sally Quinn, his third wife wrote:

"The Party: A Guide to Adventurous Entertaining" and was the subject of a Brian Lamb interview on C Span similar to the one Lamb conducted with Bradlee and refereced in the heading here.

Air date: December 28, 1997

It's an interesting interview and adds somewhat to an understanding of Bradlee's personal and social life.

As always I prefer to come at a book from any and all directions and prefer to read a book through before discussing any part of it. But that should not be a problem here as I think we all know how it comes out and references to later chapters in discussing earlier ones gives away no plot.

HELLO JIM! - Are you joining us? I'm trying to send a letter to all interested parties tonight, but my computer is lazy. Perhaps if I wait until midnight it might get some energy?

No, you're not giving away the plot here, if you are like most of us when we get a book to read we look at all the pictures (you don't?), and, of course, there is Ben smiling possessively at Sally (looking very young, very pretty) beside him! We know, we know!

I've added your name to my list - have you started reading the book yet? You've got a few days. Would love to have your opinion of Ben, wives, events, Kennedy, Nixon, and on and on. Fun to read about it from someone who ought to know! Although he's not giving us Deep Throat here!

Ella,

There are a lot of theories about deep Throat- and lots of conspiracy theories that surround kennedy- Nixon- the post etc. etc. I think I'll stay away from them.

I don't think I'll follow up any further on the Quinn book as background for Bradlee's memoir. It appears to be fairly light weight when compared to "Personal Life" by Katherine Graham, Bradlee's publisher. I wonder if any of the particpants in this discussion have read the Graham book. My wife tells me I should read it- so I will.

I did find the first two chapters of Bradlee's book heavy going, but still thought provoking in terms of providing background for his life and for aspects of social, political, and economic life of the period.

Belonging to essentially the same generation (certainly not the same social class) as Bradlee and Graham I look forward to reading these two books.

What is missing would be a biography from this generation of a person whose life is somehow connected to the other two- but a midwesterener- or a westerner- No not Nixon. Any suggestions?

I see Graham was educated at the University of Chicago- that should help.

Eric Severud comes to mind- but then he is of a slightly earlier generation and I don't know of a connection with the other two.

"Kerosene journalism"....the tabloid habit of adding fuel to smoking news (Bradlee)

Jim Olson: Paragraph 5 of your #128 puzzles me:

"What is missing would be a biography from this generation of a person whose life is somehow connected to the other two--but a midwesterner--or a westerner..."etc.

Are you referring to a biography that has not yet been written?

Are the "other two" Bradlee and Graham, Nixon and Kennedy, or...? Do you have some profession in mind for this "person"? Politician, journalist, socialite?

I attended the same highschool in Minneapolis as Eric Sevareid, and I'm U. of Chicago '61. So I might be able to help if I knew more about what you're aiming for.

Are the "other two" Bradlee and Graham, Nixon and Kennedy, or...? Do you have some profession in mind for this "person"? Politician, journalist, socialite?

I had a journalist in mind as that is mainly the topic of Bradlee's book- but we get a very much east coast view of life in that era from both Bradlee and Graham except for the adventures of Bradlee in the Navy in WWII.

Can you suggest a biography or autobiograhy of Severeid?

I understand there is a new Nixon biography coming out Monday that may or may not shed more light on Watergate, and also that someone (I don't recall the details) is working on new technology that may be able to recover those lost portions of the Nixon tapes.

Jim Olson: I needed help from a librarian to find the Bradlee book! For some reason, I couldn't bring it up on computers using "A Good Life". And when I tried Ben Bradlee, I got some author by that name who writes mysteries or something.

Library catalogues seem to treat bios as a special breed of cat. For Severeid, I'd go to Dewey decimal 921 and look under S.

Sander Vanocur was pretty active on the D.C. social scene, but is not listed in the Bradlee book index. And he was primarily a TV commentator; I don't know if he did any writing. Walter Lippman, perhaps?

The Severied autobiography published in 1946 is

"Not so Wild a Dream"

He did an account earlier of a solo canoe trip he took up the Mississipii and through Canada into Hudson Bay- a sort of spiritual vision quest of his.

Not something Bradlee might have done-- WWII was his Vision Quest as it was for many of us.

HELLO JIM - Oh, you should have been with us when we discussed K.Graham's autobiography - it was a great book! Do read it - it won the Pulitizer Prize for that year and you will find our discussion of it here: Katharine Graham:Personal History. If I were you, however, I would first read the book and then read the discussion! She was very fond of Bradlee, depended upon him very much after her husband's death, and, upon reading this book, you will see what he felt about her.

About those missing minutes on Nixon's tapes - where are the tapes stored, do you know? Didn't his family sue the government for possession of most of them?

As to favorite commentators, Eric Severaid (sp?) was one of the best, I think, but Walter Cronkite has to be in the group also. Did any of you read his autobiography? It was a good read also.

So many of the newscaster mention Edward R. Murrow as the "father of the news" - have you noticed? I would like to read about his life; there must be books written about him - do any of you know? He lives on in my memory for that early TV show where he sits smoking a cigarette and interviewing people; as I remember it was, for the most part, celebrities - the Hollywood type? Am I right?

RAMBLER - You mentioned the index in Bradlee's book - I've used it several times, a great help when the memory fails and you are trying to find a particular incident. Wish all books came with an index like that!

Cronkite is the man. He was a midwesterner, Mo.U.,and I forget the other college or university,born in St.Joseph, Mo., traveled the country and the world and knew everone who ever lived. Try him.

take care, Mary

I have Walter Conkite's book here to read....just haven't gotten into it yet. My Ben Bradlee book should be in next week along with four other books I ordered. I wish I wasn't such a slow reader....I'd zip through all of these but I'm the type that hangs onto every word.

Hello Mary W.!

MARY AND EMMABARB! Hello! I agree, we all loved Walter Cronkite didn't we? Never will forget the scene of the astronauts walking on the moon and Cronkite taking off his glasses, rubbing his eyes with joy! A very warm and humane fellow - didn't mind showing that personal side of him on TV. His book is wonderful.

But Emmabarb! Get the first 5 chapters of Bradlee's read before we start Sept 1st!

Ella Gibbons - If I could stay off of this computer, then maybe I could (hahaha).

And to complete our list of famous news broadcasters, here he is from the WEST COAST - Edward R. Murrow

In 1937! - he bought a TV set. Did any of you know they were around at that time?

After reading the TIMELINE, I remembered much more about him - particularly the McCarthy hearings and his role in those infamous times.

Gosh, it's so quiet in here, nobody saying a darn thing.

Must be that everyone is busy

TURNING PAGES! I HOPE SO!

Making lots of notes as you go along, points you might want others to discuss?

Ella: I notice that your "page-turning" illustration never makes any progress. The right side never gets thinner! Re the Bradlee book, I know the feeling.

I am so new to computers and SN that I doubt I can keep up or contribute much. (I've got to understand this machine better before I can afford the luxury of literary discussions.)

Or, as an old jazz tune or jazz saying used to go, Gotta Learn to Crawl Before You Can Walk.

I have finished the Bradlee book and am working on the Katherine Graham one as a cross-reference- lots of pages to turn there.

I still feel that both books- Bradlee more so- give us a point of view of that era from an east coast perspective that needs some buffering by a west coast or western view.

This is not a fault with the two books- just a limitation for someone seeking the widest possible perspective.

Maybe Bill Moyers is someone to look to for another perspective.

I have read Bill Moyers book "Mind Over Body" or something like that. My Bradlee book is still not in....I'm going to be way behind the rest of you.

Emma,

Does Moyers refer at all in that book to his days with Lyndon Johnson?- the days of Moyers related to politics ?

One of the things that interests me as I think it has relevance to present times is the relationship of these various people involved in Bradlee's professional life with the power structure of the times and how that structure changes over time.

And, of course, the relationship of his personal life to that structure-ie- his friendship with JFK et al. And the intertwining of all these people in public and personal life.

From Rambler in Messsage #141:

I am so new to computers and SN that I doubt I can keep up or contribute much. (I've got to understand this machine better before I can afford the luxury of literary discussions.)

Hey Rambler, please feel no pressure here. We all understand how temperamental these machines can be. Please consider this discussion as your “on the job training” site for becoming acquainted with Senior’s Net and the infernal machine. Your posts here have been excellent and we hope you will join in often with your posts.

And from Jim Olson, Posts #142, #144 and others

still feel that both books- Bradlee more so- give us a point of view of that era from an east coast perspective that needs some buffering by a west coast or western view. This is not a fault with the two books- just a limitation for someone seeking the widest possible perspective. One of the things that interests me as I think it has relevance to present times is the relationship of these various people involved in Bradlee's professional life with the power structure of the times and how that structure changes over time.

Bradlee most certainly is a product of the East Coast. I support any effort to widen the scope of our discussion through the injections of related thoughts of other contemporaries from other geographic areas. Some who have been mentioned include Walter Cronkite, Bill Moyer, Eric Severied, Katharine, Graham and perhaps Richard Nixon. I think any reference relating the thoughts of any of these individuals to Bradlee are most appropriate. In addition I am sure there are others who individual posters may have occasion to bring up as the discussion continues. The ideal of the injection of the change power structure over the period is also appropriate.

There are two additional books that I will mention in reference to their possible bearing on this Bradlee discussion. The first is the Bob Woodward, “Shadow” that was released this spring. I have not read this book, but there is and interesting synopsis in the B & N catalog. It describes the effect of the “Watergate” event on the five subsequent Presidents and how they reacted to its implications that affected them. The second book is the “Arrogance of Power: The Secret World of Richard Nixon,” By Anthony Summers. This was released only the day before yesterday, but already it is shaping up as a most controversial title. Did anyone catch the NPR interview with the author yesterday? I suspect we will here more on this publication over the coming weeks.

Jim Olson - I don't recall Moyers mentioning any politics in that book. It was from his tv series on healing and the mind and the body. I think I have it around here somewhere....if I can find it I'll leaf through it to see if there is anything about his days with Lyndon Johnson though I don't think so.

I saw an interview on tv with Bob Woodward about his book; hadn't heard of the second book "Arrogance of Power".

EmmaBarb: It was mentioned on a lot of news programs because of allegations of Nixon's drug use of a med not prescribed by his doctor but given to him that is mood altering...and allegations of wife beatings.

š ...jane›

Jane, Hadn't heard that before.....my goodness....wife abuse and drugs. news item

Drug...singular...Dilatin (sp?) or some such name...apparently given 1,000 capsules by someone who was a big promoter/believer in the drug...but it apparently caused slurred speech and some other scary things...book says Armed Forces were notified not to follow White House orders unless also had ok from Sec'y of Defense or ???? and there was another name...I forget now who it was...maybe someone else will remember...this is all in the book, apparently.

Only one I've heard dispute is head of the Nixon Library...and family dispute the wife beatings. I'm sure we'll hear more...one way or the other...

š ...jane›

Emma and All: I am a bit confused as to the exact identity of the Bill Moyer mentioned in several recent posts? I associated the name with Linden Johnson and his administration and also to the Public Television Network as a producer of several non-political programs. I have him in my mind as LBJ's press secretary or otherwise a high member of his White House staff. Yet I find no books on a political subject in the B & N catalog authored by him and no political link from an Altavista search. Please could someone say more as to clarify who this actor is.

Harold: I believe Emma Barb is speaking of Healing and the Mind by Bill Moyers

In the best-selling companion volume to the PBS series, acclaimed television journalist Bill Moyers explores the fascinating, complex, powerful connection between mind and body in human health. Ancient medical science told us our minds and bodies are one. So did philosophers of old. Now, modern science and new research are helping us to understand these connections. In Healing And The Mind, Bill Moyers talks with physicians, scientists, therapists, and patients -- people who are taking a new...
Source: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385476876/o/qid=967749281/sr=2-1/104-9943128-2240756
I don't know of any political books he's done, beyond introductions, etc. BUT, I wouldn't call Bradlee's book political either...at least as far as I've gotten...in fact, I wouldn't call it much of anything at this point. I'm VERY disappointed in it...and him..through chapter 6 or 7. But, more of that tomorrow!

š ...jane›

Harold Arnold - Yes, I was referring to Bill Moyer and his book from the tv series Healing and The Mind (see Jane's post #151). I couldn't find any mention of politics anywhere in the book. He also did a tv series with Joseph Campbell that I found fascinating. Sorry, I seem to have gotten off track on this discussion of Bradlee's book.

Bill Moyers biography ....if anyone is interested. He served as Deputy Director of the Peace Corps in the Kennedy Administration and Special Assistant to President Lyndon B. Johnson from 1963-67.

Thanks, EMMABARB - for that information. The Peace Corps, I believe, was one of Kennedy's best policies.

And another book on Nixon has just arrived in book stores telling of his involvement with drugs and wife-beating! Do you - can you believe that of the man and, further, that after all these years we are just now learning a new side, a darker side, of his character?

I remember Pat Nixon being unreal in public, shy and reserved, her face seemed a mask always, but certainly she confided in someone and this knowledge would have been made public by now? I've always felt empathy for Tricia and Julia and now more than ever - they seemed to have loved their father deeply. Are you going to read the book?

But today is the day we start our Bradlee book......and

What a great discussion it is going to be! Who wants a conversation where everyone agrees - where everyone says it was a good book, glad I read it! Bor-r-r-r-ing! We need to tear this book apart, chapter by chapter, and have a good time doing it!

Jane has already expressed to a small degree that she finds little of interest in the book so far and we want to know what she was expecting and why she was disappointed, and Jim is reading Katharine Graham's book and can give her views on the events that Bradlee expounds upon.

But let's get down to details! CHAPTER ONE and CHAPTER TWO!

Who read them, who skimmed them or skipped them altogether? And we want to know why, if Bradlee was such a hotshot editor (and he was definitely for years at the Washington Post, no doubt of his ability) how he could have written so poorly for public consumption, if you think he did!

In the Foreword he states he received help from a great many talented people - and they still didn't get it right?

Let's talk about Chapter One and Two, for a beginning.

Ella Gibbons - I can't believe Nixon was a wife beater...and how can the author of the book prove it after both Richard and Pat are dead. Someone said to consider the source.....I'll not be reading that book. Nixon was probably given drugs.....it used to be very popular to give drugs to help deal with stress.

I'll just have to catch up to you all as my book is still not in.

To begin with this book is of great interest to me because Bradlees world in years parallels mine. Since I am older than he I have lived all of the years he has. He describes my world and it couldn't be more different. His family seems tome to be extraordinally disfunctional.In many ways, although not really affluent, the family always lived as if they were. THis life was one of poor vaues, a lack of real love and attention from hisparents and a miserable relationship with his brother. The only affection he relares is for ne of his grandfathers. They were an eccentric family, to say the least, and in my opinion were extremely isolated from the realities of the real world out Boston. Provincial, really, insofar as they were barely aware of any minorities. Their sense of family was strong,if overweeningly materialistic---waiting for the "right people" to die so that their coffers could be replenished. Hs fathers behavior in copeing with the depression was surprisingly commendable. The family sacrifices were trmendous--imagine having to make ones own bed or carrt wood upstairs! All of this, too, without missing one day of private school! THe best thing that happened to Bradlee in his early years was his discovery of nature and the outdoors--a love he maintained all his life. The familys idea of a proper education was to learn to speak French fluently, study he piano. ride well and attend concerts and operas. Commendabl but hardly the education of the makority of American children. His extended family was pretty weird,too. Uncle Edward Crowninshield, who never worked a day in his life.smoked opium, was something of an amateur magician and a considerable womanizer. The most interesting of his relatives was Frank Crowninshield.He founded the magazine Vanity Fair ,was an avid and discriminating art collecter and was a member pf the Algonquin Round Table, dear to my heart. He writes as he speaks. There is no pretense of scholarly prose. I believe he is as he speaks---in asense somewhat refreshing. But I never knew any boys with such a colorful vocabulary. If they did use those words ( some of which I never heard until I was grown) They never used them around me. This diatribe is just about the first chapter, isn't it? Too much,I'm sure. More later on the second chapter, if you can stand it. Take are, sll, Mary

I will begin with a comment and suggestion concerning the new Nixon book (Anthony Summers, “Arrogance Of Power”). It has just come out and it is a bit early to know what role if any material from this book will interface with the Bradlee study. I, therefore, suggest we defer further consideration of Nixon until we get to the Nixon chapters. At that point we will most certainly have been exposed to the reviews and interviews and some of us perhaps will have read the book. At that time I think it quite likely that the injection of material and comment concerning the publication will be appropriate.

Concerning the Bradlee, “A Good Life,” let me welcome every one to join the discussion. Whether you are a veteran of many book review discussions or a brand new novice uncertain about starting out, you are welcome and your contribution will contribute to the result.

I will kick off the discussion as Ella has suggested with some personal comments on the first two chapters. Like many biographies I have read in the past I found the opening chapter a bit boring. After all the main character achieved his/her fame as an adult. That is what we want to read about. We are impatient to begin. Yet the author thinks we should know something of the characters early life as a kid and maybe we should know a little something about his family background. These facts are certainly essential to our understanding of the life, but be that as it may, this can be something less than interesting to a reader just starting the book.

I perked up with the 2nd chapter because it concerned Bradlee’s Harvard education. I have know during my life two Harvard graduates, one only casually but the other as a close professional work association for about five years beginning in 1971. For a while we shared a single large office working on long-range generation system economic planning studies for our electric utility employer. It was quite an experience sort of like being a roomie of Isaac Newton. Five years later my friend scored a top 800 (out of a possible 800) on the Law School Admission Test. I learned that Harvard bachelor degree graduates were thinkers, not specialists but they are very capable of becoming specialists, as their situation requires.

I think this is the case with Bradlee. Of course he was 30 years earlier. I do believe Admission was different than when my friend entered in the late 60’s. Admission for Bradlee seemed to come rather easy. Was there any competitive Exam? Bradlee only tells us, “I got into Harvard with highest honors in English, French, and Greek, plus a pass in physics." Bradlee continues in the same paragraph to say 51 relatives going back to the 18th century had gone there and “there was never a question that I would get into Harvard or go to Harvard.” I suspect and certainly hope that the role of ancestors in the admission process is history. Never-the-less Bradlee who had a rather shaky academic beginning graduated with a major in English and Greek in just a bit more than three years. At the same time he was commissioned an Ensign in the Navy. Also he seems to fit my model of the young Harvard graduate as a thinker as opposed to being a specialist, but quite capable of acquiring specialized skills when they were required.

MARY - What a marvelous post and you have given us so much to think about. I want to comment on a couple of points you made:

"They …….. were extremely isolated from the realities of the real world. Provincial, really, insofar as they were barely aware of any minorities"

Definitely Bradlee makes this point( pg.26) - "Family conversation centered on ourselves and our friends" and he goes on to state they knew no Jews or blacks. And further, on pg. 39, in writing about his education he makes the statement that although it was top of the line, he had absolutely no education on race, poverty, anti-Semitism, crime, anything remotely counter-cultural. He lived in a dream world as a youngster that very few ever lived it or will ever live in. Was this first chapter written perhaps to demonstrate how naïve he was as to the reality of America or the world?

"His fathers behavior in coping with the depression was surprisingly commendable."

I agree, Mary, he points out the change in his father when he lost his job and with it the loss of his dignity and having to depend on the charity of relatives. That must have been very difficult, but his father "struggled at various odd jobs, with great energy and without false pride." The stiff upper-lip attitude - we all admire it.

"The most interesting of his relatives was Frank Crowninshield.He founded the magazine Vanity Fair ,was an avid and discriminating art collecter and was a member of the Algonquin Round Table, dear to my heart."

Mine, too, Mary! I love reading about all of the members, particularly Dorothy Parker - my nephew and I used to trade her quips and I have my favorites. Did you see the movie about her - it never went over very big but I wouldn't have missed it; however, it dwelt too much on her alcoholism which was sad, but it certainly not the whole of the lady. I can't remember the name of the movie.

And on pg. 29 there is Uncle Frank Crowninshield introducing none other than Clara Boothe Luce as his MISTRESS! Shocking, indeed! Later in the book, he mentions this episode again. The very famous lady of our day. And, as you pointed out, one of the reason for enjoying this book is the fact that it jogged our memories of all the people and events we knew - this was our era in time.

"He writes as he speaks. There is no pretense of scholarly prose."

Indeed so! As a biographer should.

HAROLD - We were posting together! This is great to have two Discussion Leaders, particularly, different genders because it may be a male-female thing we are encountering here! I enjoyed Chapter One immensely. Chapter Two, as far as I'm concerned, he could have written in a sentence or two, such as "I went to Harvard as all Bradlees do" and, on pg. 54, he says "I drifted everywhere in those days" and that is exactly what he did in this chapter!

His shortcoming in this chapter was his long staying!

What did you find of interest in his activities at Harvard?

We'll see what others have to say - isn't this fun!

Ella: You've summed up the first two chapters...and maybe more. For me, he could have written that:

he grew up in a wealthy, egocentric, arrogant family and he continued the tradition at Harvard. He seemed to get things based on who he and/or his family knew than by what they knew. Partying seemed his chief occupation.

That seemed to sum up the first several chapters. He, unfortunately, took pages and pages to say it.

š...jane›

My last two posts were swallowed up by something. Or perhaps I hit the wromg damn key again. My typing is atrocious but I'm trying to do better. Bear with me, please.

Harold, so for as I can discover entrance into Harvard was different for every enrollee. Certain candidates were admitted by heredity with pretty slender credentials ie Bradlees. They changed after the war partly because of the GI Bill of Rights.

Ella: I, too, loved the first chapter. To understand an adult one has to know the child. What better way to watch the events that shaped this mans life than to know what happened to him along the way? His years at Harvard seemed to me to be largely purposeless and on-productive until the approach of the war. He finally cut out the foolishness, settled down to some studying, graduated and enlisted in the Navy.The beginning of some budding sense of responsibility. What I cannot fathom is why he and Jean were married. Perhaps because (much as Harvard) it was expected of them? Neither one of them had a clue about what marriage entails and don't believe they really loved each other.

Jane, Sorry you thought Bradlee used too many words in describing his early days. Perhas he felt that fewer words might have led to an oversimplification or generalization that he wished to avoid. Maybe I'm a word junkie, one of my favorite writers was Thomas Wolfe who used every word known to mankind.

Take care,all Mary

I have only skimmed the first two chapters, so I don't want to say much. But I vaguely remember the pre-W.W. II years.

I don't think we should come down too hard on Bradlee because he knew no Jews or blacks. Even in the lower middle-class, of which my folks and I were certainly members, there was a tendency to distance ourselves from those who were supposedly not-quite-as-good as us.

My dad was a musicians' union official, and of course there were many Jewish and black musicians--often the best in the business! But there was a vague undercurrent message that they were "different" in some deprecatory way.

And this was Minneapolis, a long way from class- and ethnic-conscious Boston.

I've been reading Katherine Graham's autobiography along with a quick re-read of Bradlee and comparing them to the extent that they are comparable.

Hers won a Pulitzer prize, and his didn't. That is understandable as hers has many qualities his lacks. I think one of the main reasons for that is that she is a woman capable of exemplifying many of the qualities of our best women writers, and he is a man hung up and limited by a very macho self-centered perspective.

At one point in her book Graham remarks on a story told about Kennedy who asked one of his aides why the "paunchy, balding" Stevenson had such an appeal to women. The aide noted that while both Stevenson and Kennedy loved women- Stevenson also liked them and women knew the difference.

I don't think Kennedy ever figured that one out- nor did Bradlee in his relationships with women- including his mother as revealed in the early chapters. Graham, on the other hand appears to have understood her mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, etc. and also liked them in spite of many flaws she reveals in their characters. You get the impression that she has a capacity for liking everyone she comes in contact with- but also understanding them.

I recognize the qualities of Graham's book but also qualities his shared with hers. Both are what I would call "honest" writing, both telling their stories openly. To some extent I think I like the Graham book better because as she reveals herself in the book I like her better as a person than I do Bradlee as he reveals himself- but both do reveal themselves. Neither one is using any tricks to hide anything. Neither one of them would have been capable of making the "Checkers" speech as Bradlee at one point notes that Kennedy could not have done. I'm not so sure about Kennedy - Teddy could have certainly done it- and did. But I don't think Bradlee could.

Both use what to many readers must be an excessive number of references to names of well-known people around them- but probably not for a journalist trained in that kind of detail. She gets away with it better because she spends more time showing us what those people were like and we develop an interest in them. His as in his mention of W.H.Auden in his school days appear to more like name-dropping, because he doesn't tell us much about him.

My wife says his frankness about sex is not honesty but just male showing off- as men do in the barracks after a leave. I think she has something there. I wont pursue that point.

But I do find many things in the first two chapters of interest- his bout with polio and his description of the panic that epidemic created is only one of many. I think there are things to admire in the character he reveals in those first two chapters, and many aspects of life in those days that brought back memories. And like Mary I enjoyed reading them to discover those things.

In Chapter 1, Bradlee tell us that during the mid-1930’s, President Roosevelt ask his maternal grandfather’s law firm to go to Germany to negotiate the “Black Tom Case” with Nazi Germany. He goes on to tell us that the grandfather personally took the case and had an audience with Hitler. Bradly simply says he remembered hearing his grandfather telling of the audience “in terms that would in due course seem uncritical.” Question: I have never heard of “the Black Tom Case,” and Bradlee does not elaborate. Does any one have any knowledge as to what this case was about?

The following were to me interesting revelations:

Bradlee attended the 1936 Republican Convention. He was with a friend of a friend who was a Wilkie worker recruiting warm bodies to pack the galleries. Bradlee says, “ I ended up in the gallery chanting, “we want Wilikie!” without wanting anything more than a good time. My first lesson in political manipulation was right there for the learning, and went sailing over my head.” One of the rioters at the democratic convention in Las Angeles a few weeks back when ask by an interviewer why he started bon fires gave the same answer, “I just wanted a good time.”

I do not remember the 1936 conventions, but I do remember the election. My family had just moved back to San Antonio from Houston and my parents were not registered in S.A., but my grandmother was. I remember walking about 3 blocks with her and my mother to the voting place. When we reached the distance marker through which only voters could pass, mom and I had to wait. I remember the elderly lady continuing and as she reached the entrance to the fire house voting place, I shouted at the top of my voice, “REMEMBER, VOTE FOR WILKIE!” I don’t think I knew much about either candidate as I was only 8, but suspect I had heard her say she was voting for FDR and just wanted to “have a good time.” My mother who was with us also was furious, but the election judge did not seem to mind.

The tattoos. The initials, B over C over B with a snake coiled through the initials on the right Buttock. And a rooster under the left shoulder, wow! Hey Ben, Why no pictures?

Politics: Papa and Momma always voted Republican until 1960’s when they went for Kennedy, but never did again. I guess I’m not really surprised about this.

Money: I think $50K was mention as papa’s pre crash salary. That was quite a sum in those days. Later I think about 1939 when Bradlee entered Harvard $10 K is mentioned ($5 K papa’s salary +$5 K from mom’s dress shop). But a N.Y. relative was paying Ben’s Harvard tuition. It pays sometimes to have rich relatives. And in 1942 when Bradlee graduated and was commissioned, things were looking up. Inheritances from late relatives had come.

Bradlee himself had a $100 K trust fund of blue chip stocks paying $4,000 a year income. This caught my eye because that amount would be about twice the wage of a typical young working family at the time. Also today $100 K of blue chip stock would probably pay about $2,500 annual income. To earn the equivalent of $4,000 income today something like $40,000 would be needed requiring about $1,600,000 of stock.

In comparison I remember hearing that when the Kennedy kids entered Harvard about the same time each had a trust fund of a million.

For deatils on the Black Tom incident and efforts to get reparartions from Germany go to:

http://www.getnj.com/jchist/blacktoma.html

Jane - Is the fact that you found nothing of interest in Bradlee's early chapters due to your opinion that he doesn't write well or does nothing worth writing about? Your honesty is creditable! Obviously you like biographies or you wouldn't have picked up this book to begin. What biographies have you read that were outstanding in your opinion? I'm always on the lookout for a good one - I just brought home from the Library one called AMERICAN PHAROH - the biography of Mayor Daley (the elder) of Chicago, but haven't opened it yet. I hope as we get farther into Bradlee's life you will find it more interesting! His chapter on WWII is outstanding

Rambler -My childhood, far distant from Ben Bradlee's in every way possible, yet, in small-town America in the '30's and 40's in which I grew up, there was the attitude you described of blacks being, if not inferior, at least different and to be avoided. My hometown had only two Jewish families in them and they were liked as far as I can remember. Actually, one Jewish fellow, Ezra Vogel , a classmate, became my very good friend and debate partner in high school. He went on to a Ph.D. at HARVARD in Far East Studies and the last time I heard from him he was teaching there. We didn't know about anti-semitism; this was in the heart of America's little towns and probably I did not become aware of it until I was much older and stories of WWII and what was being discovered in Germany surfaced. Needless to say I was shocked!

Jim - Polio, indeed, was very frightening to all of our generation, I will never forget the fear of it when my firstborn went into a convulsion as a baby; I was certain she had polio, which wasn't true, but the fear lingered on. Every symptom our children had the fear emerged in our minds. We had a neighbor who got polio pregnant with her 3rd child - she was taken to the hospital to be placed in an iron lung - remember pictures of those dreadful coffin-like things? That family completely broke up as the 3 children, the baby was born all right, were shipped to relatives and the baby was eventually adopted by a sister. So sad!

Bradlee was astonishing in that he stated he never once had the idea he would never walk again - it never crossed his mind. This must be due, in part, to his parents' attitude don't you agree? Although he never credits them in this regard.

Your statement "he is a man hung up and limited by a very macho self-centered perspective" rang true for me in reading the whole book; very egotistical man! Does a self-confident man have to also be egotistical? I don't so! Nevertheless, I can overlook that because I enjoyed his adventures in his life.

In referring to the incident in Graham's book (glad you are enjoying it, it was one of the better ones I've ever read) where a Kennedy aide remarked that Stevenson liked women and women knew the difference, I want to add a comment of my own - WE DO! WE DO! Most men never believe this - my husband doesn't and it is infuriating to me. He has said many times that if a man and woman become close friends, then the man is going to want a more intimate relationship! Enough said!

Frankly, I enjoyed both Graham and Bradlee's "excessive references to names of well-known people." They weren't being boastful about this, it's their lifestyle and many of the people mentioned the reader is aware and interested in knowing more.

And thanks for the "Black Tom" article - I wasn't aware of those sabotage activities on the part of the Germans during those years. They did a bang-up job on that pier! Wow! What careless security the U.S. had, let's hope we are doing a better job today. I see they have released the Chinese scientist that supposedly leaked secrets from Los Alamos. I hope no racism was involved in the decision to arrest in the first place. I haven't read as extensively as I would have liked to about the case. Anyone??????

Harold - I was astonished at Bradlee's income of $4000 a year also! Why then did he live so frugally at times? I remember in Chapter Four, I believe, where he and Jean rented a house with no running water or bathroom - with that income he could have done better certainly!

I've met a few brilliant people (not necessarily men, Haha) that never graduated Harvard, Harold - you really believe that university makes a difference in ability to achieve? In my opinion, it is highly overrated - perhaps because so many people believe that it is a "status" symbol to graduate from there. I may be prejudiced here, or just envious? I don't know, but I would like to! Tell me what there could be at Harvard that is different from other good schools; and here I must say that the Kennedys certainly agreed with you and proved capable men. How many Kennedy women graduated Harvard, do you know? Interesting.

I have nothing whatsoever to say about Bradlee's tattoos! Silly to have them done and silly to mention them in his book. I worked for awhile at O.S.U. and was friends with a young, bright, black male student and one day he showed me a tattoo that was the symbol of his fraternity and boasted that he could go on any college campus in the United States and show his tattoo and become one with that fraternity. I was horrified and told him so - allowing himself to become branded in that manner. Sometime later he told me he thought about it and was wondering if he could sandpaper it off. Who knows how you get rid of the things if you want to??? Childish!

Ella: You and probably others have commented on the difference between Kennedy and Stevenson regarding women. "...A Kennedy aide remarked that Stevenson liked women and women knew the difference" (between liking and trying to take to bed). Your comment was WE DO! WE DO!

Some socially or intellectually prominent grande dame died in the last couple of months. She once said, "I spent all my life searching for a man I could look up to without lying down!".

My book is still not in. I thought I saw a link at the top of this page to read the first chapter online....what happened to it?

Lots to say,none of it disparaging to anyone else---just my personal opinions.

Jim: I do not believe Bradlee to be merely a "macho, self-centered, egotistical" man. I truly believe that each of us lives with whatever we are given. This occurs mainly as a result of our rearing. If, by good fortune, we grow up having caring, nurturing parents with exemplary values, a real interest in and understanding of others and other ways of life we will, unfailingly emulate their examples.There are always exceptions, of course, the kid from a good family who becomes a criminal, but by and large we find the world with which we have lived and we are consequently ( temporarily) emulate those who have given us our world.We change as our lives change and our world grows larger. Bradlee lived , in those early years, the only way he knew how to live Later in his life he learned much more about how to live in a rel world with real people.

Rambler: Bradlee did noy only noy know or was not aware of minorities (most of us were in the same boat) but he was totally unaware of any other kinds of people or any life other than the one he lived. His world was a pitiably circumscribed one,limited to what he saw. The worst kind of provincialism!

Jim, I forgot something I wated to tell you. I loved Grahams book and I liked her infinitely better than Bradlee. However she grew up in a totally different environment from his and benefitted from it. I also have a message for your astute wife: someone told very early on that " empty barrels make the most noise".

Emma: Your book will arrive tomorrow, I think. It wont take you any time to catch up especially after reading all these excellent posts.

Ella: I wished you lived next door.

Take care, Mary

Ella: I only read biographies of people who interest me. I enjoyed Katharine Graham's Personal History and admired her more when I'd finished it than I had when I started it. I thought Bradlee's would be interesting. So far I find his name-dropping, his references to his "miserable" salary...even when it's 2 and 3 times what "ordinary" people were making boring.

š...jane›

Jim, thank you for the link to the “Black Tom” site. It gave a good overview of the event. One of the Germans named in connection with the early operations was still around in the WW II period. I am referring to the military attaché, Franz von Papen who figured in German history of the 1930’s and 40’s. He briefly was Chancellor in 1932, and in 1933 when von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor, von Papen came along as part of the deal as Vice-Chancellor. He didn’t stay in that post long becoming Ambassador to Austria until the invasion and annexation of that country. I remember von Papen from the news during WW II when he was the German Ambassador in Turkey because of frequent news reports of spy/sabotage activities out of his embassy. His last act during the post war years involved his appearance as a defendant in the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial. Since he was principally an aristocrat nationalist and had somehow avoided a real connection to the Nazis party in a “crimes against humanity” sense, he was one of the few defendants who walked free with a not guilty verdict. I never heard his name in the news since though I sense he may have been retried in the German courts later.

Ella, I have the idea that Bradlee’s $100 K trust fund of blue chip stocks did not materialize until shortly before his graduation making his frugality during most of his time at Harvard necessary. When the family went to France in 1937 they went “tourist class”. As Bradlee put it at the end of Chapter 2 (summer 1942), “Aunt Poly had finally died.”

I did not want to give the impression that Harvard had a monopoly on developing a student’s abilities as a thinker. I am sorry, my words were not the best and they led to that conclusion. On the bachelor’s level, however, that seems to have been Harvard’s goal, and there is nothing wrong with that. They were designed to develop leadership ability and the ability to function in a wide variety of life situations. Specialized knowledge would come later from on the job training or graduate study. Harvard is not the only school to do this as many others large and small do also, but I think there has been a trend toward degree plans in specialized work specialties such as the various engineering fields, business areas such as finance or accounting, or even marine biology and wild life management. And there are many self-taught individuals who manage quite well without the college experience.

In Bradlees case we can observe also that he did get some specialized course instruction. What was it called, “Naval Science”? Bradlee I think mentioned having to complete Naval Science IV for his Navy commission. Presumably there was also Naval Science I, II, and III versions also. He deserves a lot of credit, particularly after his shaky start. He finished his last two years in a single year plus a summer and his four year degree program in just a bit more than three years.

Jane I understand your comment in message #170 concerning Bradlee’s reference to his miserable salary even though it was 2 to 3 times what ordinary people were making. Even so I will be the devils advocate in this case by noting that the expense of maintaining the family social position was probably 4 to 6 times what was required of the more ordinary. At one time after the crash his father’s salary was $3,000 a year. While this was a comfortable family income it, it was far short of the amount needed to support an active Boston social life style.

Harold...I"m sure you're right...but he seems to continue that whining about his "miserable" salary...on into his Paris years..when the poor thing was "on a shoestring" and only able to ski at Klosters in Switzerland (where the Royal Family goes...so it must really be a "miserable" place! ;0) and rent a 67 room chateau for a month with friends, etc. Such a terrible thing, to have to live on such a "shoestring" on such a "miserable salary" as he was paid.

š...jane›

Let's move on to Chapter Three as there is much to discuss about BB's war years - we may be here for a long time. When I first read this chapter rather hurriedly I thought he was somewhat cavalier in his attitude about this war that could have ended civilization as we know it and involved a great part of the world! However, I changed my attitude a great deal on reading it more carefully, e.g. what do we make of this statement on pg.63 - I served almost exactly two years aboard the Philip. Certainly the most important two years of my life, then and maybe now.

Perhaps only a veteran could answer that statement - "the most important two years of his life, then and maybe now?" I'd like to know your interpretation of that sentence.

As a civilian and knowing nothing of what it is must be like to be constantly in fear of your life, it is hard to conceive that someone would make such a statement. And I think if I were to be asked what the TWO MOST IMPORTANT YEARS of my life were, it would be difficult for me to frame an answer. They were all important for so many different reasons.

Did he mean that he matured in the service? That "living on the edge" makes one more appreciative of life afterwards? Does he mean that the camaraderie he had in the service was never again duplicated in civilian life?

Off a pier in Charleston, S. C., there are several ships of WWII vintage that some years ago we visited. One was a submarine I remember and a carrier, and I believe there were two others, but, gee, my memory fails and my husband is off at Lake Erie this weekend. He would remember I'm sure, as he's a veteran of WWII having served on a carrier that was surrounded by all these various ships. I can't compare sizes very well in my mind, but BB tells us that there were 330 men packed into this destroyer 380' long and I can visualize that. We live on two acres and I know that's somewhat short of the length of our lot. And to put men, machinery, life support equipment in that - OH!

Even tighter was the submarine we walked through. We all remarked how difficult that must have been - I don't know the length of the average sub - do any of you - so that we can compare?

Harold, Jim or Rambler - are any of you veterans? If you can answer any of my questions, please enlighten me.

And Mary, Emmabarb and Jane - any comments as we start on Chapter Three?

EMMABARB - We haven't removed any of the 4 links in the header and I don't believe that a first chapter of BB's book is on the Web - I took a look at 2 search engines yesterday but didn't find that to be true. Can you get a copy from your Library while you are waiting? They are readily available there. Hope so!

My own cynical view of BB is that those two years probably were and [maybe are] the two most important of his life because he was finally doing something of real importance and of value to someone other than himself. His service was more important than anything else had ever been in his life.

š ...jane›

I'll be out of pocket until this evening as I have to do my ITC work this afternoon, but will make a short post now and come back this evening when I will have more time. A ships company of 330 men sounds high to me for a destroyer, but the closest I came to being on one during the war was a smaller destroyer escort and that was only two days as a passenger from Pelieu to Ulithi. The trip is remembered because I had ice-cream for the first time in six weeks and because of the near collision in Ulithi Lagoon when a LCT suddenly veered crossing our course. I found the sudden switch to flank speed astern a bit unnerving. This was about the 1st of August, 1945 just as the war was about to end. I stayed on Ulithi until just before Thanksgiving. I was assigned to SLU-34 a standard Landing Craft Unit. There is a picture of me piloting a LCVP landing craft in Ulithi Lagoon. Fortunately when the picture was taken the war was over and we were just out for what can best be described as a Sunday afternoon drive.

Me1945

To day is September 3, 2000, significant as the 61st aniversicy of the beginning of WW II.

Good morning everyone: Jane, That is not a cynical appraisal of that two year experience. It's perceptive. For the very first time in his live he was sharing an experience of REAL importance with REAL people. Something brand new. He also was exercising REAL judgement and developing asense of responsibility for others. These first two years in the Navy brought about a change in his perception of the Real world and it's people. If I sound like an apologist for Bradlee, I'm not. I just think he had an awful lot to learn throughout his life---he was never taught either by precept or example how to live in a world other than the one in which he was reared. More later, Mary

I'm really enjoying the posts here and appreciating the frank exchange. I must admit to a prejudice also, before even reading the book, the photographs alone shriek of a privileged life and one thinks, oh no, another publishing figure who inherited it all, going on about his good fortune. I'm interested to see how my perceptions are altered at the end of the book and the discussion.

I would rather see YOUR photo, Harold.

Back later, I need to catch up.

ginny

A quick message as I go about my work - yes, I'm laboring on Labor Day.

I see Ginny (Hi, Ginny!) has entered our discussion - and I must object to her statement that those that have inherited wealth are not interesting? Ginny, and how often have you expressed your great interest in the Royal Family of England who has untold wealth. I see nothing wrong in reading about wealthy people, they have their problems also; however our "cynical Jane" has a point! At times BB seems to be boastful, I do admit that, but he's had such a colorful life I can forgive him for that!

Remember, Ginny, how in reading Hoving's book, several of us objected to his outright blatent admiration of hisself (is that a word, doesn't look right).

Again, our Mary has given an excellent suggestion for BB's words! "He also was exercising REAL judgement and developing asense of responsibility for others. These first two years in the Navy brought about a change in his perception of the Real world and it's people.

Keep in mind that BB is a famous editor and an editor does not waste words. He weighs words carefully. I believe he was telling us a lot in this sentence about his life. I just wish he were here so we could ask him, but we can only speculate. Back later...... excellent time to clean house when no one is here, stays clean a couple of days!

Ella: Yes, I'm a veteran, but army in 1953-55. Occupational specialty: Drinking beer and chasing frauleins. Not quite relevant to the navy in W.W. II.

Two comments (perhaps my only two) re chapter 3: On page 68 of my hardcover copy, BB refers to Boswell's Life of Johnson. Johnson is the author of essays called The Rambler. Hence my nom de plume. On p. 75 he refers to the song called "Bless 'Em All". I don't think that was just a Pacific War song. I think it perhaps was British and may even have originated in W.W. I.
Bless 'em all
Bless 'em all
Bless the long and the short and the tall.

Sorry for the link that for some reason does not work. I wrote it in the usual way and can find no entry error that would bring up the text, but exclude the pictures. Strange but it works fine if you will cleck the following http://lonestar.texas.net/~hhullar5 Then clik the "me" option from the menu. The picture at Ulithi is about the 2nd picture on that page.

Rambler-

Bless?

You sure that is the way you sang that song?

Hahaha, JIM! We know the way it is written in the book, and RAMBLER we thank you for being polite on Seniornet, particularly with the ladies present. (Besides that, if you put the BB version you might get thrown off of SN). And thanks for telling us about your code name, I'm not familiar with the Essays, but Bradlee's boat had good reading material on it.

Yes, HAROLD I wondered about the broken stamp I got but thought it might be my browser, which acts up all the time.

Before we go much further into the Navy years, which I thought he wrote with great exuberance, I want to quote from Tom Brokaw's book and his interview with Bradlee:

"It was there (Navy) that Ben Bradlee, who had been tutored in French as a child and sent only to the best schools, began to learn about the real meaning of personal responsibility. 'I remember,' he says, the first day I was made officer of the bridge. I was twenty-one years old. I was in charge of the ship. I am driving this g_____n thing. It was a tremendous responsibility and at twenty-one it was good to see what you could do.'

Bradlee was also able to see what others, those who lacked his pedigree, could do. He laughs and says, 'They were all a guy named Joe with an unprounounceable last name. They could fix the radar, and you couldn't. I learned a tremendous amount about how excellence had nothing to do with class.'

What Bradlee learned, he says, is that there are no tests or psychological profiles that can compare to the experiences of war when it comes to determining what capabilites people have within them. The war took the cockiness out of you. You couldn't bull_____ your way out the first time you were under fire."

He grew up and out of that cockiness and arrogance! Many of us, whether we had a poor or wealthy background, went through periods as youth that if we were to write about a few experiences, how honest would we be? Think about it!

Later, in the same interview, he says:

"It separates those of us who were in the war from those who never had that kind of experience - the teamwork, the danger of dying, the self-confidence we gained. I don't feel superior as a result of those days. I just know I learned a helluva lot from being there."

Have you ever heard parents of children say it would probably be good for their child to go into the service? And then they give you all kinds of reasons. Why is that do you think?

Recently, I ran into a friend (our fire chief in our town) I hadn't seen for a couple of years and he told me his oldest daughter, who had always been too shy and reserved, had joined the army right out of high school and what a change he and his wife has noticed - a good change he thinks. She's working on truck engines - Mercy! Perhaps a college dorm would have done the same, but the father is happy.

I served in the army in the Pacific in WWII but I can relate to some of the things Bradlee talks about in his chapter on his Navy experience, although I experienced combat only indirectly at the very end of the campaign on Okinawa. Later as a recalled reservist I did see more sustained combat action in the Korean war and have written somewhat about that in a web page about my experiences at http://members.aol.com/fab987th

Bradlee served on a Destroyer that served as Bradlee tells as shields and as Combat Communicators. They put themeselves at risk to protect the larger ships and like submariners they had a special place of respect and honor that I think he enjoyed, and he took pride in his role and their role.

He was very proud of this and had a right to be.

In the battle for Okinawa they were the invaluable expendibles- the "Tin Cans" many were radar pickett ships that ringed the island and surrounding waters to warn of incoming Kamikaze. Because of them only a small fraction of the Kamikazes sent to destroy major American ships ever got close to their targets as they were detected and shot down by inteceptors before they could reach the larger ships and transports.

But the Destroyers on this pickett duty paid a heavy price for their role as they suffered tremendous casualties in that battle. The official Navy list of ships destroyed in the Okinawa campaign list pages and pages of Destroyer pickett ships sunk or damaged with casulaties resulting.

I especially related to his description of meeting the Marine observer who directed fire for them when they were firing close support for one of the island battles- He says he "loved" that man (and fed him ice-cream until he threw up- ice cream they acquired as ransom for downed pilots from a carrier- I liked that, too, having once been strafed by a carrier plane.) I think he related to the observer because an infanry forward observation team is somewhat the infantry counterpart of the destroyer crew - out front people who find themselves at risk as a communcators (although not as great at risk as the infantry rifle man) and in a small way directing some aspects of the battle. I was on a forward observation team in Korea but we never directed Navy fire- just our own howitzers. (although the Navy did provide that kind of support in Korea as well in some battles).

Men were tested and judged not by who they knew or what their seniority was but how they performed and he was proud of his performance and the fact that he achieved it as part of a team of men who shared that accomplishment and acknowleged his. I know the feeling although fleeting in my case. Like him I was quite happy to know that I had not wet my pants (I think he used the expression metaphorically more than literally) when fear came.

I think for better or worse this was part of what formed his habit of bonding strongly with a small group of men, completely and grossly insensitive -then and later- to the effect this was having on the women in his life.

Before we get too far beyond the formative years and into the Navy chapter I would like to say a few final words on my judgment of Bradlees’ character as he graduated from Harvard. I tend to agree with the several of you who have been critical of Bradlee as a spoiled rich kid from an old aristocratic family with an un-healthy, un-American consciousness of his position in a privileged class. I think also that despite this high social position and education at the best private school including Harvard, his outlook was quite limited. Actually he knew very little about his own country. He tells us in the first chapter that when he graduated he had never been west of the Berkshires or south of Washington. Of course he had went with his family in 1937 further east to Paris. But this was Europe and the trip only served to strengthen and emphasize the idea of privilege status and a culture that was more European than American. He tells us he had no contact with blacks apparently not even as servants and none with Jews. His understanding of America must have been limited by the lack of the day-to-day exposure to the real American people and their culture.

Bradlee gives great credit to his wartime naval experience for completing his education and the formation of his adult character. Perhaps it is fortunate for him that he had the war experience. With out it his life might well have replicated his father’s who was never judged successful.

Such great posts HAROLD AND JIM! I wish some of the veterans over in the Greatest Generation would come over to discuss Bradlee's wartime experiences.

Harold Undoubtedly you are right, one of Bradlee's purposes in writing about his narrow education, both in the earlier years of his live and at Harvard, were to attempt to prove to himself or to the reader how much the service meant to him overall and how they could certainly, looking back over the years as he must have done in writing this book, have been the turning point of his life. He credits those years with gaining the self-confidence, the leadership abilities and the knowledge that all men have qualities, if not equal to his in education, to be admired. You said it much better and simpler than I have done when you stated Bradlee gives great credit to his wartime naval experience for completing his education and the formation of his adult character.

JIM - Where were you in the Pacific Theatre as a member of the Army? I read your account of the time you spent in Korea and your "hike from hell." I believe I also read of this account over in the G.G. - you have never heard whether your commanding officer lost his hand or they were able to reattach it? I see you mentioned the MASH units - no nurses however. Perhaps you know my daughter is a nurse in a MASH unit and served in the short war in the Persian Gulf - way over in the western area of Saudia Arabia. She has 16 years in the Reserves, going for 20 and her mother hopes no other war happens before she exits the reserves.

Did you join the reserves again after the Korean War or had you had enough by that time? The pictures of you and your wife - well, all your pictures are excellent! And your poems, too. You obviously enjoy poetry, the one you wrote for Charlotte was very moving!

They put themselves at risk to protect the larger ships and like submariners they had a special place of respect and honor that I think he enjoyed, and he took pride in his role and their role. He was very proud of this and had a right to be.

Very well said, JIM I don't believe the book tells us how he came to be assigned to a destroyer - how does that happen? Is it that the Navy sizes up your ability, education, experience and puts you where you are needed?

BB's vivid description of the first time he saw action is extraordinary written, particularly when he says - "Was I scared? Who knows? I was so exhilarated it didn't feel like any fear I had ever felt."

I have only encountered great fear once in my lifetime - unless you were in the war, one doesn't usually encounter such fear, but in my case, it was not"exhilarating" - I was paralyzed and couldn't move. They wouldn't care for my brand of courage in the service! It was unfounded and proved to be a neighbor, but I thought someone was trying to gain entrance to my home and I was alone that evening with two small children. Terrifying for a few minutes.

More of this chapter later. I have a quick question, Jim, before I stop for the evening. In listening to news reports lately and a panel discussion Sunday, I am heartened by the fact that the public seems to think very favorably of Joe Lieberman - who is being critized for his religious mentions of God. In fact, all the candidates are competing for God this year! Wasn't Kay Graham Jewish? And was it her father that wanted to keep that knowledge from the public for fear of hurting circulation due to anti-semitism in the country during the early decades of this century? It was either the Washington Post or the New York Times who had Jewish owners (or perhaps both) who felt this way and it would be nice to tell them that Joe Lieberman has caught on in politics very well and is up for election to one of the highest offices in the land. It bodes well for America, we have made some progess in religious matters, makes me feel proud!

Where were you in the Pacific Theatre as a member of the Army? I read your account of the time you spent in Korea and your "hike from hell." I believe I also read of this account over in the G.G. - you have never heard whether your commanding officer lost his hand or they were able to reattach it? I see you mentioned the MASH units - no nurses however. Perhaps you know my daughter is a nurse in a MASH unit and served in the short war in the Persian Gulf - way over in the western area of Saudia Arabia. She has 16 years in the Reserves, going for 20 and her mother hopes no other war happens before she exits the reserves.

I recently contacted another member of the unit who tells me that "Porky" , nickname for the officer did lose his arm at the elbow but was fitted with a prothesis, remained in the service and rose to the rank of full colonel before he retired. I wanted to contact him but also learned that he died recently.

From reading I've done about the Marines (I was with a Marine unit when wounded) I learn that I was not in a MASH unit but the corresponding Marine medical equivalent- they did not have nurses as MASH units did. Maybe they do now- I don't know.

I did not remain in the reserve.

Enough is enough.

My service in Pacific in WWII consisted only of a brief time on Okinawa at the very end of the war and then a year in the occupation of Korea following the end of the war.

I have done several essays about the Okinawa experience but haven't put them on a web site yet.

I have been lurking in this forum but have not read Bradlee's book so I can't make any relevant comments.

Robby

Ella says:

I have only encountered great fear once in my lifetime - unless you were in the war, one doesn't usually encounter such fear, but in my case, it was not"exhilarating" - I was paralyzed and couldn't move. They wouldn't care for my brand of courage in the service! It was unfounded and proved to be a neighbor, but I thought someone was trying to gain entrance to my home and I was alone that evening with two small children. Terrifying for a few minutes.

What you describe underlines one of the essential differences in the area of fear. In combat men almost always had comrades besides them to back them and vice-versa. They had training (not always the best) to help them cope with combat situations, and in situations after the first they had experience.

Without these elements men did not show the same kind of courage they did with them. The same men sometimes under different circumstances displayed different behaviors and emotions when encountering fear.

I have had "chicken" experiences when these elements were missing. Every time I see the "Wizard of OZ" I relate to the lion. I think Korea was my wizard.

Your situation was without any of these supporting elements. Your wizard probably came later under different circumstances.

To continue a thread I mentioned in an earlier post that somewhat relates here to insentivity of men to women's concerns, I note the bare facts- not his explanation- but the fact that when returning home on leave he delayed his meeting with his wife several days by a drunken night at the St. Francis hotel and then later his main concern seems to have been that she had been seeing a "quack" doctor to help her cope with the stress his absence had on her.

What a clod.

Hi Robby! Lurk all you want, you can even comment if you'd like. No restrictions here, Hahaha!

RAMBLER Are you still with us? You didn't tell us where you were stationed in the occupation? Korea I would imagine? Or I suppose it could have been Japan? How many years did we keep the occupation forces there, anyone know?

"I think for better or worse this was part of what formed his habit of bonding strongly with a small group of men, completely and grossly insensitive -then and later- to the effect this was having on the women in his life."

Jim Can you expand on that statement? I'm not sure what you mean? I know he wasn't successful with the women in his life, but am surprised that you blame this partly on strong friendship with men which began in the service. Very interesting.

An episode in the book I found difficult to believe, but I'm sure it is the truth. I'll quote it here for those who may not have the book:

Rabaul is where a young congressman, somehow a lieutenant commander in the Naval Reserve, flew over one night as an observer, and flew back to Washington immediately. Got himself a Silver Star for that single flight, as the world would learn later. His name was Lyndon Baines Johnson

Did you know that before you read this? Have any of you read a book about LBJ? I didn't and haven't, but am going to, I've got his name on a list of books to get. If you have any suggestions for me, please tell me. I remember reading a scandalous small book about him way back in that period, but I didn't believe it, strangely enough I thought it was propaganda!

BB's friend, Bob Lee, seemed a great fellow, great friend to Bradlee, but I don't believe he kept in touch with him after the war, did he? Perhaps time and distance added to loss of friendship. My husband kept in touch with 2 Navy friends for awhile but as life became more complicated, he - we- lost touch. I was amused at this statement - "He (Lee) had gone to Amherst on a scholarship and really learned things. Gives you indication of what Bradlee thought of his years at Harvard!

BB has many tender stories in this chapter that causes one to wipe a tear from an eye. You mentioned one of them, Jim, the young Marine forward observer! I can't imagine such bravery, directing fire right at yourself, within a few feet! BB says that the Marine was so close to the enemy that when they talked by radio he could hear the Japanese yelling in the background! But how was BB able to pick him up at shore with the enemy so close? After dark? And BB describes him as "all jerky gestures and haunted eyes." I would imagine so! And further Bradlee says "I didn't know how to tell a man I loved him in those days, but I sure loved him." That young Marine, if he lived through that, is no doubt telling the same story today.

Great stories in this chapter - back later.

My book is in and I should be picking it up this evening...along with three others that I ordered. It will be a hard decision to decide which one I want to read first. I still have those bedroom books that I like to read myself to sleep.

EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT!.

I just received a phone call from Mr. Bradlee's secretary, Carol Liggett, informing me that Mr. Bradlee will be happy to join in our discussion of his book. Won't this be fun - to have an author here "in person" so to speak! I'm not sure exactly when he will be online, but it will be soon!

The call was in response to a letter I sent to his publisher a few weeks ago and as he has been out of town, he is just now responding.

Please welcome Mr. Bradlee when he joins in! I've already informed Ms. Liggett that some of the things we have said might offend, but she laughingly responded that Bradlee does not get his feelings hurt easily.

Ella: Yes, rambler is still with you, sort of. In my #180 I mentioned that I specialized in drinking beer and chasing frauleins.

I don't think our "occupation" forces (surely not called that anymore) have ever left Korea or Germany. I remember bitching to a buddy on a troopship bound for Deutschland: These countries are getting back on their feet! Let them defend themselves! Why are we going "over there"? I still don't understand why we have forces in those places, at great expense.

Re the book: So far, Bradlee doesn't interest me much, and I am lagging. Sorry if that offends our new guest of honor.

I have been told that the best LBJ book is "Flawed Giant" by Robert Dallek. You may want to check with Texas Songbird, who often hangs out at The Sixth Sense of Humor. Yes, I had read about the Rabaul overflight.

Ella--I could only smile when I read that "some of the things we have said might offend, but she laughingly responded that Bradlee does not get his feelings hurt easily".

When you think of it, I doubt there is very, very little that Ben Bradley has not heard in his time.

I have been lurking, but will be sure to watch for the great man, himself. I think that's just what he is! Talk about someone you'd like to invite to dinner....or a month of dinners.

Sun

I'll get that book, RAMBLER, thanks much for the recommendation. So,what country were you in? I think most of us have either wondered ourselves or have heard people make the same comments as you did above. What are we still doing there? The Wall has come down, the communist threat is over for now! Bring the boys home! Of course, we have bases scattered all over the world in case the day may come when we may need them - it would be interesting to know how many countries we are in - there's something we could probably find on the Internet.

Am sorry the Bradlee book is not of interest to you, but do stick around for awhile, we'll get to the Washington Post stories soon and Nixon and that gang, and the Woodward and Bernstein stories in no time.

When Mr. Bradlee comes - and I don't when that will happen exactly - I want to WELCOME YOU TO SENIORNET'S BOOKS AND LITERATURE. Do click around on all the books we are currently reading ,and the archives listed below will give you an idea of what our past book selections have been.

You will find Katharine Graham's book listed in the Archives under Non-fiction Books; one of the better autobiographies we have discussed.

Hi SUNKNOW! I'm sure you're right, but I wanted to warn her - she was very pleasant, but what a surprise. And I didn't get an email address for her and am wondering if she knows how to logon - if I'd known that phone call was coming, I would have made a list!! Gol-ll-ee!

Gomer Pyle

It's been several days since I've spoken with you. You have really spurted ahead. I'll have to look t my copy of the book and my notes and get back later. I cant ,at this moment think of what I want to say. However, I am delighted that Bradlee will visit us. A young Bradlee quite possibly would noy have wanted to.

Back later, take care, Mary

Ella Gibbons - That will be terrific to have Ben Bradlee join this discussion of his book. By-the-way, I picked up my book this evening and decided to get busy ready it right away.....that is if the other two books I purchased don't distract me.

Hey, MARY AND EMMABARB put aside all the distractions and READ! We have to finish the Navy chapter and two more after that to keep on schedule - as listed above! I expect to hear much from the two of you in the next few days. Some marvelous stories coming up!

Is cynical Jane still lingering anywhere? How far have you read, Jane? Anything of interest - not even his Navy experiences?

If I can figure out when, maybe I should read this book.

Robby

You're still young, Robby - do an all-nighter! Quit playing with the dog, he'll survive as long as you feed him!

Hm-m-m-m - thinking about it. I always found it difficult to resist a woman.

Robby

First and foremost, let us all pause and give three cheers for our number one DL, Ella Gibbons for making participation with the author of our discussion book a possibility. She did it all, and I think it is a Senior’s Net first. Congratulations Ella?

Now to continue with some comments that I was drafting this morning when my time ran out and I had to leave for my work at the Mission Espada. After this afternoon there, I am reasonable sure that the only day hotter than today in all of the 270 years at its south San Antonio location and 310 years residence in Texas, was yesterday. Yes yesterday it was a record 109 degrees. Today apparently it only reached 108. Tomorrow the weather people promise relief in the form of a cold front assuring us it will only reach 102 degrees.

Robby: You are very welcome to lurk and please post any time when you have personal experience thoughts relating to our discussion.

Jim: Regarding the thoughts expressed in your message #190

What you describe underlines one of the essential differences in the area of fear. In combat men almost always had comrades besides them to back them and vice-versa. They had training (not always the best) to help them cope with combat situations, and in situations after the first they had experience. Without these elements men did not show the same kind of courage they did with them. The same men sometimes under different circumstances displayed different behaviors and emotions when encountering fear.

I escaped WW II combat. I joined the Navy shortly before my 18th birthday in Sept 1944. (To escape being drafted into the infantry). As close as I came to combat was in late July and early August 1945 when I was on a troop transport with some 3,000 other sailors and Marines heading for the Philippines. We had an escort consisting of a Destroyer Escort and few smaller vessels but we went through the same waters at about the same time as the Indianapolis was in when it took the four-torpedo spread from a Japanese submarine. Had even one torpedo hit that converted American Presidents Lines tub the losses would have been staggering.

Yet I was completely oblivious to the obvious danger. I see in my experience another reaction to danger particularly by the very young. They just have no comprehension or understanding of it. They cannot envision any limitation of their own immortality. In my case I was too dumb to be afraid and can recall no thought of such a possibility. My only concern was how hot it was in our un-air conditioned below deck quarters requiring every one to sleep topside on the bare, hard deck. Also there were the more serious only two meals a day, and only salt water for showers and washing.

Ella Gibbons, I'm reading....finished the early years and looked at the index and all the pictures. But I am tempted to start "Becoming Madame Mao".

Thanks, Harold, for the kudos but actually I did nothing but write a letter to Bradlee's publisher and it is Ben Bradlee we need to thank for agreeing to join with us in this discussion.

And we have had other authors on Seniornet Books - we had Thomas Hoving, former Director of the Metropolitan Museum in NYC, who also met us for lunch at the Cloisters on our trip to that city in 1998 after we had read and discussed his book King of the Confessors and Studs Terkel, author of the THE GOOD WAR, met with us for lunch in 1999. We also discussed that book to some length and many veterans exchanged their views on WWII; also there have been a couple of other authors, not quite as well-known as those, and at the moment their names escape me.

In the flurry of trying to save my dinner last night and talk to Mr. Bradlee's secretary, I neglected to get an email address so that I may correspond in order to be more precise about Bradlee's plans. I am attempting to do that today and will keep you informed.

Perhaps, just to make sure Mr. Bradlee is reading all our posts (Hahaha) we can insert a question for him now and then! What do you think? I'll keep them in a list on my desk beside the computer. Or would you like me to post them in the heading? Up to you!

Shall I start? Mr. Bradlee, are you writing another book, and, if so, what about? Simple question, but I'd love to know, wouldn't you?

Of course, I could ask him many more, but post your questions here, okay?

Are any of you as amazed as I am at Bradlee's memory? Can you remember the names of books you read when you were 21 as he can? I had not thought of the play or movie Mister Roberts until BB mentioned it; actually, I had forgotten it was a book - have any of you read it? I saw the play locally and, of course, the movie - great movie and who played in it? Can't remember that either.

HAROLD Thanks for the post - that's certainly a reason, of course, why armies consist of young men; they not only have no fear, but are strong and willing, but how sad!

Will get back into the 3rd chapter later today! Join me!

HAROLD - My husband, a Navy veteran, remembered the Indianapolis incident very well. Here's a site for more information:

The Indianapolis

Oh, goodness, almost forgot Tom Brokaw's book that we have been discussing for sometime here in the Books and a wonderful phone interview that we had with him. Memorable occasion, as has been our veterans' messages, truly a wonderful discussion; something we will keep on our site forever as a remembrance of those who fought, and those who died in WWII, and Korea. Click here to read Brokaw's interview:

Tom Brokaw's Interview and book discussion

I think both Jim and Harold have posted in that discussion. Later........ Where is everyone today?

The story of the sinking of the Indianapolis on July 30, 1945, the almost accidental rescue of survivors, and the aftermath including the court marshal of the Captain was detailed in a 1982 book by Raymond B Leach, "All the Drowned Sailors."

As I remember this book, its conclusions were much the same as the position of the Web site given in Ella’s recent post, that the captain’s guilty verdict was an unjust cover-up of higher people. As I remember this book its position is based on the failure of the naval command on Guam to provide anti submarine escort vessels. As I said our lone transport did have a DE and a few PC craft. The Indianapolis a heavy cruiser had no submarine detection or attack capability unless the sub was on the surface. To compound the problem the skipper did not receive intelligence information that would have led to the employment of evasive tactics such as running a zigzag course. The trial included the trappings of a show trial and included testimony by the Capitan of the Japanese Submarine that fired the torpedoes. I think it was the first time in US Naval history that a victorious enemy Capitan had been called (Brought from a POW camp) to testify at the trial of the Skipper of the American warship he had sunk.

Again from memory I think the Captain was allowed to retire from the service and later committed suicide. I gather from the “Indianapolis” web page link in Ella’s post that the survivors are attempting to get the Court martial Verdict over turned through a joint resolution now pending before both houses of Congress. I will certainly support this effort by letters to my Senators and Representative and urge others to do so also.

The Indianapolis

HAROLD This whole episode is so familiar to me, I've either read about it or was there a movie, or TV program about it? It's in my memory and maybe I call pull it out down the road a day or two.

What did you think of this statement Bradlee made on pg.76?

My regular non-battle job involved communications, the care and feeding of the machines which provided raw information to the ship, and of the men who operated and maintained those machines. THIS RESPONSIBILITY WAS MORE EDUCATING THAN HARVARD, MORE EXCITING, MORE MEANINGFUL THAN ANYTHING I'D EVER DONE. THIS IS WHY I HAD SUCH A WONDERFUL TIME IN THE WAR. i JUST PLAIN LOVED IT.

The fellow who piloted the ENOLA GAY was from my hometown, Columbus, Ohio and I can't remember his name at the moment - isn't that terrible? Did he write a book? I'll look it up.

Didn't you like that story Bradlee told of the Admiral slyly leaving the page of the directives open and walking away, making sure that Bradlee noticed? He got out of that one well - isn't it nice to know that some of the "big guns" of the Navy or other service can be human?

JIM called Bradlee a "clod" for getting drunk and missing his plane home to see his wife - what would you have called him if you had been the wife? I wouldn't have been so nice!!! You still haven't explained to meJIM why a man who bonds with other men so well has trouble keeping his love life intact!

Are you ready to go on to another chapter? If so, say so. I can comment all day! I love these stories he's telling, particularly that one of escorting that Australian soldier to his home that had been wounded in the throat, had surgery and a voice box and was so frightened his wife wouldn't have him!! That's has to be one of the most tender stories of the book and I can't remember what page it was on, but that can make you misty-eyed! Those Australian soldiers were fighting machines weren't they - five years and no leave! Wow! There's a wonderful article about Australia in TIME this week - haven't read it yet! Home of the Olympics!

At one point in his narrative of the Pacific war Bradlee refers to Kamikaze as "The Golden Wind"- I think that is usually translated as the "Divine Wind" and goes back to an ancient incident when a Japanese army was saved by the divine intervention of a storm that kept the enemy (I forget which enemy) from destroying it.

The concept in WWII was that a new "Divine Wind" was needed to turn the tide of battle and the Kamikaze attacks were that answer.

As it turned out they weren't the answer as most Kamikaze missions failed and after a bloody initial success (149 of our destroyers were lost mainly to Kamikaze in the Okinawa campaign) the best Japanese pilots and planes were lost.

Realizing this the Japanese military toward the end of the war kept the concept but implemented it with men and equipment they knew would fail- poorly trained pilots who knew how to take-off but not to how to land or fight in any way- planes that could barely fly (and in many cases could not fly well enough to reach the target) and started to build a reserve in Japan of their best planes and best trained pilots for one last glorious Divine Wind that would destroy the landing fleet we were massing to invade Japan.

Fortunately for us (and for me personally) that wind never got a chance to blow. I think there must have been at least some Japanese pilots who felt as relieved as I did about that as there were a suspiciously high number of Kamikaze flights where pilots ditched their planes due to "mechanical" problems (high, even given the sad shape of the planes used). There is at least one report of a Kamikaze ditched on Okinawa where the captors had to extricate the pilot as the escape hatch was bolted shut from the outside. And there are a number of memoirs of Kamikaze pilots- sounds like an oxymoronic title to me- "Memoir of a Kamakazie"

Bradlee also speaks of the sad shape of the prisoner he took "the sorriest looking SOB I ever saw" and of a failed shore trip to Santa Tomosa prison- failed because of delays as sailors stopped to participate in easy street sex. There is a relationship between the prisoner covered with sores, the readily available street sex, and Santa Tomosa prison (a prison where US Army nurses and allied civilians were kept) that is revealed by reading "We Band of Angels," the story of the imprisoned Army nurses. The comman element is starvation- a condition mainly of the prisoners but one shared in one degree or another by both civilians and enemy troops in Manila at the time.

Bradlee reports that the sailors objected to saving the enemy soldier and he did so partly because he felt there might be some value in passing the prisoner on to intelligence. There were, in fact, few prisoners taken on either side during the Pacific war after that first large surrender of Corregidor ( and many of those men died in the Bataan Death March.) The Pacific campaign was so bitterly fought on both sides that it was literally a "take no prisoners" war. One infantryman on Okinawa told me that his company had captured a Japanese squad of 10 men and the Captain (preparing for an attack on an enmey position) ordered a detail to take the prisoners to battalion headquartrs which was at least an hour away, giving the detail a direct order to return within ten minutes or face a court martial for desertion. They disappeared around a hill and returned in five minutes. I don't know if the soldier was telling me the truth or not- sounds like a "war" story to me- but the fact is there were very few prisoners taken until the very end of the Battle for Okinawa when the Japanese finally surrendered, one of the two commanding generals comitting hari-kari the other surrendering, and many isolated troops remaining holed up in caves on the island- some for years.

This is my last war related post. I would like to move on and "fight no more forever."

Jim:

This may be your "last war post" but your constant informative and insightful comments about World War II in Greatest Generation helped to make it an extremely successful Discussion Group. We're thankful that you have not made your "last" post.

Robby

Robby--I came late to this discussion....my book should arrive before the weekend, and I am anxious to get it. Bradlee has always been facinating to me, because I love history and politics. I look forward to reading about his part of history in the Pacific, as well as in Washington DC....another famous battleground.

Jim was talking about the Battle for Okinawa and that has always intrigued me. I went to Okinawa as a AF dependent in 1955 and could not get housing close to the base and temporarily, we were housed in quansit hut houses on Buckner Bay, sitting half way up one of those hills. It was green, and lovely, and the Bay was so peaceful looking below, but so strange, because there were still reminants of rusty boats, parts of ships, planes, and assorted unidentifiable equipment scattered here and there in the water and around the Bay.

So VERY strange looking. While flowers grew around us, above us on the hillside were some of the caves that the Japanese and some of the Okinawan people hid in. Yes, there were stories that some of the Japanese Army hid out for years before they came out.

It was there on Buckner Bay that I became so interested in The War that I went to the library and read every book on the Pacific War that I could find. I went to read a book on Ernie Pyle, and ended up reading volumns of supposedly dull Naval History of the War in the Pacific, and much, much more. Years later I did the same thing when I lived in Europe. There is nothing like walking on the ground where history was made and where so many of our young men died....and where some survived to tell about it.

Yes....I eagerly await the book....

Sun

Although I have not gotten the book, I am considering doing it. Ella and Harold have a big job on their hands as Discussion Leaders.

JIM Great post as always. My husband saw 4 kamakaze pilots coming right for their carrier, one hit the flight deck, bounced off and went to the bottom of the deep; the other three never hit a thing, just dove into the ocean. It is so strange - so foreign to us. Bradlee says he could never imagine waking in the morning knowing he was going to get in a plane and deliberately crashing it and killing himself. Well, most of us can't either, but at the same time on a much larger scale all those thousands of young men hit the beach at Normandy in the face of those German guns - they had to know that a great many of them were not going to make it! Not a deliberate suicide mission, no, but what's the difference? The results were the same!

Divine, divine? Heavenly powers again! Oh, I do feel sorry for all the Gods of the world, whatever name one gives HIM - HE has been accused, charged, credited, acclaimed, applauded for so many deeds. How burdened HE must feel.

The Japanese Military Powers told these young ill-trained pilots that they were "just like Gods, free from human desires." It's revolting to think about.

Yes, I understand the common element you speak of and that's all I have to say on that subject except the book WE BAND OF ANGELS was excellent and the discussion is archived at the bottom of our Books Page under Non-fiction.

WELCOME SUNKNOW This book has politics, war, romance, history, and many stories of people we all have read about or should have read about, or don't care to read about, but recognize! You'll like it, guaranteed. Your statement:

"There is nothing like walking on the ground where history was made and where so many of our young men died....and where some survived to tell about it.

How did it feel? Tell us about it! I'm not sure if I would want to do that, and I know I couldn't go to the cemeteries in France where our boys are buried! I've often wondered how the veterans could go there and come home again and go on with their daily lives - but we are all different folks with different emotions. I avoid sadness if possible, could be I'm afraid of it!

Robby - don't analyze that! I don't want to know!

And with these words - I am on my way to NEW HAMPSHIRE with Bradlee in Chapter Four.

MARY! BARBARA! HAROLD! RAMBLER! GINNY - WHO AM I MISSING? Shall we go on to Chapter Four? Speak now - the train is leaving!

Would you like me to copy the instructions I sent to Bradlee's secretary and paste them here to see if you think that they are useful?

Let's do this: I'll put them here and you grab an illiterate-computer person - print out these instructions for her/him and see if they can get to this page, Okay? How long did it take them? (Register for him/her beforehand, get off the Internet, and then let them begin)

On the Internet type this into your "address or location" box at top of screen: www.seniornet.org. Hit the ENTER key on the keyboard.

2. Scroll down the page to the FEATURED DISCUSSIONS section on the left. In the sentence that begins with SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT in green, click on the red underlined title - A GOOD LIFE.

3. Type after username: - (you give them this) 4. Type after password: - (same as above)

5. Click on the LOGIN button below.

6. You will now be in the A GOOD LIFE discussion. Scroll down the page past the yellow heading. Read any messages you wish using the FIRST, NEXT, and PREVIOUS buttons. The LAST button will take you to the end of the messages.

7. When you are on the last page of the messages, scroll down the page to the MESSAGE BOX and type what you want to say. Then click POST MY MESSAGE. It will appear on the page.

Next time you visit repeat the same process. You will be taken to the last page that you read on your previous visit.

Do let me know! A test, a test!

Here are some comments on thoughts referred to in Jim’s post #212 regarding the Kamikaze and Japanese holdouts and POW’s at the end of the war.

Nagatsuka, Ryuji, “ I Was A Kamikaze”, Macmillian Publishing Co, New York, 1972. This was an interesting book by a former Kamikaze. I read the book many years ago and remember he was actually on a mission but fortunately for him their intended target was not to be found. I do not remember the circumstance that enabled his successful return and survival. Under normal mission conditions there would not be fuel for a return. As I remember the book it did tell of kamikaze training and psychology.

Another Japanese suicide weapon used during WW II was the Kaiten. This was a miniature submarine manned by a single pilot. The I-58 had at least two when it met the Indianapolis on July 30, 1945. It is said that the youthful Kaiten pilots literally begged the Captain to deploy them. But it was not necessary as the opportunity for a sure torpedo shot was present. ( Leech, “All the Drownded Sailor, P37)

When I arrived on Ulithi atoll and was assigned to SLU-34 the Standard Landing Craft unit was based on one of the corral Islets maybe 2,000 feet long and about 600 feet wide at its widest point. There were Quonset huts large and small serving as mess halls, machines shops, housing and etc. There were scattered palms and docks on the lagoon side with many landing craft beached and at the docks. These were used to service the near three hundred cargo ships assembled there to supply the intended landing in Japan. The month before my arrival about Aug 20, 1945 I was told how a Kamikaze came from the sea just after dark to crash the rock. The story they told me was that he mistook it for an aircraft carrier. I suppose this mistake was possible considering it was dark and perhaps cloudy conditions. In any case one of my new shipmates had received a purple heart having been slightly wounded by the blast.

When I left Ulithi less than three months later, there were only 2 or 3 ships remaining. We had closed the base. The Machine shop equipment, electric generators and tons of equipment were loaded on the LCVP and LCM landing craft taken to the deepest part of the lagoon and sunk. The Quonset huts were left standing, but empty.

On Guam where I was stationed from mid Nov 1945 until the middle of May 1946 we some times had Japanese POW work parties. Though I had very limited contact with them, they seemed a pretty relaxed bunch perhaps not really able to believe that they had in fact survived the war. Also there were frequent reports of Japanese holdouts still active in the hills. Marine patrols were often sent out to apprehend them. I read news reports 10 years later of their continued activity. While I was there the story was told of a renegade being apprehended at a base beer garden. He simply got in line and the surprised master-at-arms apprehended him when he failed to produce his beer card.

I had a couple of chances to view the gristly remains of several bunkers in the hill above the base that had been Jap command bunkers in the final battle about 18 months earlier. They were burned out with flamethrowers and everything inside had been more or less burned and certainly destroyed. One I suspect had been a field hospital as some of the remaining items show indications of once having been hospital type equipment.

Ella ~ That would be fun to see your instructions you sent to Bradlee's secretary. Oops! I see you already did. Anyone should be able to understand that. For lesson two, you may want to add "subscribe" so he can be brought back to where he left off each time.

Finished chapter two....I'm in the Navy now.

EMMABARB - And the rest of us are leaving the NAVY! You're behind so catch up. However, at the pace we go, be assured you'll have plenty of time.

Harold Interesting stories of the Japanese - I've never heard or read about the Kaiten, must tell my husband. And I did look for that book written by a former Kamikaze pilot at Barnes and Noble but it is out of print; however, there are copies for sale and that site will take you to them. Have you read the posts in the GREATEST GENERATION discussion? Then you'll know how many of the veterans feel about the Japanese to this day - which includes my husband! And, no doubt, there are those in Japan still living who knew the horrors of WWII and have lingering attitudes regarding us. It will take another 20-30 years - after the remaining veterans have all died - for the two countries to be at peace with one another.

Bradlee alludes to this in his book when he makes the statement that he has never put much faith into Japanese products since the war.

We've all heard those stories, Harold about the Japanese hiding in the jungles and caves on the islands and refusing to believe the war is over. Japan never expected to surrender and isn't it true that they would have fought until the last civilian was killed - or so we've been led to believe?

I'll be back later today to begin our trip to New Hampshire!

Thanks so much for participating in our discussion - love to read your posts!

JIM - Have you finished Kay Graham's book? Was it true that her parents were Jewish? When we discussed her book on Seniornet, my book came from the Library so I cannot look it up. Just curious and wonder how she feels about Joe Lieberman.

Ella: I'm not Jim, but I have K. Graham's book right here at the computer desk...

p.4: "My father came from a distinguished Jewish family with roots going back many generations in Alsace-Lorraine, France. It was a family that numbered many rabbis and civic leaders....My father, named Eugene Isaac Meyer ..."

p. 1-17 (various) Her mother's name was Agnes Ernst...on her father's side, my mother came from a long line of Lutheran ministers in Hanover, in North Germany...they were married in a simple Lutheran ceremony in her home....and the new husband, a rich man, paid off his father-in-law's debts and supported the father-in-law until his death in 1913.

š ...jane›
"

Ella, here are a couple of thoughts from your message #219. First I have not been following the GG board regularly. I have about all I can handle here and in the History Forum. Also I am attracted to the de T discussion but my activity there too has been reduced since we began here.

I of course understand the feelings of Bradlee and many WW II veterans who actively were engaged against the Japanese. These were certainly my feelings too at the end of the war when I arrived in the area. But I fortunately was spared combat and perhaps this fact and my limited exposure and contact with Jap POW’s on Guam that tended to show their human side, kept hostile feelings from being deeply established. In any case after a few years I pretty well lost any real lingering animosity toward the Japanese. Another later factor that I think contributed was that in the 1960’s several of my work associates who were younger Korean War veterans, projected a quite favorable opinion of Japan and its people.

We've all heard those stories, Harold about the Japanese hiding in the jungles and caves on the islands and refusing to believe the war is over. Japan never expected to surrender and isn't it true that they would have fought until the last civilian was killed - or so we've been led to believe?

I think they might have fought long and hard, but the fact is they did not. For this I give great credit to the the atom bomb and the Japanese Emperor who seems to have had a last moment recovery of common sense.

Harold:

I don't think the Emperor had a "last moment recovery of common sense." I tend to believe that he was always a peaceful person but was under the control of the war lords. Our move into Japan gave him the opportunity to do what he probably wanted to do a long time before.

Robby

I'm just about thru New Hampshire. I may have to put my other books down just to try to catch up in here. I wonder if he kept a diary all those years? How in world did he remember all that stuff of his younger years. What is his actual birth date? Was he born in 1921?

I was working at a pathology lab in D.C. on a secret assignment (what I mean was I had to have top-secret clearance to handle the material) and transcribed some medical reports dealing with radiation burns and sickness from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I remember seeing some photographs where the atomic bomb blast had left only "shadows" burned into the earth of where fences and grass blades once were.

For years I was a proofreader and Linotype operator for The Chicago Tribune. So perhaps I am inclined to nitpick. But I have trouble with the first sentence of Chapter Four. (Go ahead, take a look.) Why " . . . the war that would really end all wars . . . "? If any adverb(?) is appropriate, it might be "supposedly". Why not simply, "The excitement of coming home in one piece from the war should have lasted longer"? Where were the editor's editors?

Also, I'm a 40-year ACLU member, and I am not aware of Roger Baldwin's "Nude Beach fame" (near the bottom of p. 95). Is that a reference to something in Chaps. 1 and 2, which I admittedly only skimmed?

But this is a gem: "And he resented people with more of anything than he had . . .from money to brains to friends . . . and there were many of them". (p.100)

Rambler, how interesting, I did not know you were a Linotype operator for the Chicato Tribune. I know nothing of the newspaper business, what did that consist of?

I loved Chapter Four. I love the spirit shown here. Here is not a man who relied on connections and family money, altho he did have to borrow to get started, but then again, who wouldn't help a child if the money were available?

You'd like this book, Robby, when stymied, he did what you did, he kept trying. Signed up for night classes, took a job as a cataloguer of the library of the American Civil Liberties Union and learned a lot doing that, took a job as office boy, dug his own 4 foot deep 50 foot long plumbing line to his house which had no running water or heat: how can anybody fail to like the man?

That one incident endeared Bradlee to me forever. My oldest son, as a present to his father one year, dug by hand a trench for an irrigation system from the garden down a steep hill to a farm pond, a distance of more than 700 feet in dug trench and more in exposed pipe, and fitted the pipe in it. It worked.

I like that kind of grit and determination. I like Bradlee's brand of humor and self depreciation. I had not expected to like him, and I do.

I wonder how he can remember all those names and details from so long ago, I wonder how long it took to assemble this book. It's definitely not Les Memories d'un Ane.

I had no idea that writing for the newspaper was so difficult, for some reason. I think I'm going to learn a lot from this book, and enjoy it immensely while reading: the incident at WKBR made me laugh out loud.

Ginny

As you say, Ginny, you do anything to keep going. Did I ever tell you about the time after I received my doctorate but had another four months before the federal government would accept me? I had to eat somehow so I got a job in the New York Upstate Medical Center as a typist. I am probably the only Ph.D. typist they ever had. When you're hungry, humility is easy to come by.

Robby

You're right, Jim, and I had deleted that post, but I guess you saw it first, I don't know much about Bix. Will put it in the History Forum, and I'm glad to have that other opinion, too.

Thanks,

ginny

Jim: The only Bix I know of is the legendary jazz cornet player from Davenport, Iowa, who died long ago at age 28. Obviously I missed something here.

Ginny: The answer to your question, "I know nothing of the newspaper business, what did that consist of?" would be a book in itself.

I worked for The Trib from roughly 1958 to 1967. That and the G.I. Bill put me through the U. of Chi. First I set type and then, because I was pretty good at it, they made me primarily a proofreader.

My finest hour, if you call it that, came on Nov. 22, 1963. I was at my Linotype, setting the two-column, front-page lead story on the assassination. I got up from my machine and walked over to an editor. (We rarely associated with editors because they seldom came down to the composing room to associate with us peasants.) And besides (because of our strong union at that time), we often made more money than they did!

Anyway, I said to the editor, "May I ask you a question?" He said, "Sure". Handing him copy from Dallas, I said, "It says here that ownership of the murder rifle has been traced to Connolly. Would you care to change that to Oswald?"

He uttered some swearwords regarding what he would like to do to the (unmentionables) of The Trib's man in Dallas. And of course he made the correction.

JANE Thanks for looking that up for me - it must have been the owners of the N.Y.Times - perhaps I read an article or a book about it? Are you just now reading K.Graham's book ? It's truly a delight.

HAROLD AND ROBBY - Shall we look up a good book about Japan after WWII or one that specifically deals with the Royal Family of Japan and discuss it? If you find a good one, I'm in. Then, perhaps, we can decide the Emporer's position for or against the war. I'm ignorant on that subject, but willing to learn!

EMMABARB - By my calculations Bradlee must be about 79? He entered the service in 1942 at the age of 21 so he qualifies as a senior to enter our site - Hahahaha! He maintains an office still at the Washington Post and a secretary and I say HURRAH FOR BEN! Not only did he come into the world as one of the "privileged" class, but he chose his genes well. However, we are all living longer so we are told and new drugs, new surgical procedures, even pigs' hearts for humans, are offering all of us a chance to be the generation who has lived the longest in American history, so we shouldn't squander these years! So what shall we do?

And that is precisely the question Bradlee asked himself when he came out of the Navy, as did thousands of other G.I.,s, as do young people everywhere when they graduate from high school, college, leave home, whatever! Hey, kid, what are you going with your life? Bradlee had been "living on the edge," being told what to do and where to go, and all of a sudden - freedom!

But, EMMABARB I wish I could answer your other question as to how he could remember all this he has written. Perhaps a diary? How else?

RAMBLER - Gosh, are you right! The way you wrote it - "The excitement of coming home in one piece from the war should have lasted longer" - sounds so much better - and, of course, now you realize that we are all going to be self-conscious about our verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs with you reading all our posts! Actually, I'm stating right now that I am not going to change, unless you promise to be MY EDITOR!

Am so glad you brought the ACLU to our attention as I was going to anyway. Not all may agree with us but I think it's a wonderful organization, have donated to it when I could, and hope it stays around forever. Heard a marvelous lecture years ago by one of its Executive Directors - and not a lawyer. They usually don't have lawyers on staff, but have a list of them to call on. But I don't know a thing about Roger Baldwin. I'll look him up on the Internet and get back with you - does anyone else?

Never heard of "Blue discharges" either! The service better not try that again in these "modern" times.

GINNY - You don't know what a linotype operator was? I say was, because they no longer exist. RAMBLER - tell Ginny! (I bet you can type fast, Rambler, Hahaha). Glad you are enjoying the book, Ginny - Bradlee is interesting, his life is interesting, and he persists! Even today! We do admire him for that!

I liked this attitude:

As a group, we were close, united by shared uncertainties, but reveling in the knowledge that we were making a difference…….

Did you feel that at one time - when you were young?

And their paper succeeded for a couple of years and won awards!

On page 3 Bradlee mentions this William Loeb, TR's private scretary - would he be any relation to that famous young man in the case of "Leopold and Loeb" I wonder? I read that book eons ago - one of those that have stayed with me over the years for some strange reason. But young boys, affluent young boys, were doing the same awful things back then as they are today! We forget that sometimes.

Great story, RAMBLER! I knew a linotype operator a long ago and was amazed when he told me how much he made and how strong the union was! Even saw a linotype once in a local little paper we have in our small city. Big things! Outdated now, of course.

No, Ella, I read Personal History some time ago; just got it again to review in conjunction with A Good Life . Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed K. Graham's book.

š ...jane›

Ginny: Linotypes are far afield from Ben Bradlee. Will try to send you an e-mail. The machine was a real Rube Goldberg. You remember him, right?

Jim:I'm still wondering about Bix from back in #227.

Just drop in here, JANE, anytime, particularly when we get to the part of the book when Bradlee and Graham's lives meet - you'll be our resource person! Of course, I wish you would comment now - have you given up entirely on the first part of this book? Maybe the next five chapters coming up soon - when he starts working at Newsweek and meets Phil Graham?

I did a little research and learned a great deal about Roger Baldwin, the founder of the ACLU. What a colorful and great fellow he was, we ought to read a book about him. Here are a few sites - there are many more, but found nothing about the "nude beach" Bradlee mentioned.

http://www.pgh.aclu.org/about/volunteer.html

http://www.airlab.com/~shydavid/aclu00.htm -

Where's MARY, MARY W. ARE YOU ALL RIGHT? We would love to have your comments on Chapters 4 and 5. So happy to have you all aboard on this ride through New Hampshire and then to Washington, D.C.

William Loeb, now deceased, was the owner of the Manchester N.H. Leader newspaper.

I read the Bradlee acount of his experiences with the AVC (American Veteran's Commitee) an altruistic veterans group formed after the war by world federalist idealists.

I don't recall if it was the same group or not but we had such a group on the campus of the U of Minn following the war and many of my friends were members and as in Mass the young Communists on campus tried to take it over.

They were foiled in their attemps to take over this and a number of other campus organizations including the campus democrats by a group of Farmer Labor (the name for the Democratic party in Minnesota) enthusiasts who were directed by the organization of then mayor of Minneapolis, Hubert Humphrey, who knew every organizational political trick in the book and fought fire with fire using such tactics as packing meetings- switching meeting times and places at the last minute, etc.

The communists were foiled and outraged.

But as in Mass nothing ever came of the Veteran's group.

My own small bit of historical name- dropping.

Rambler- I deleted the Bix post- it was really not relevant.

Ella Gibbons ~ That's what I figured....about 79. Perhaps Mr Bradlee will come online and tell us how he remembers all those things that happened in his life so long ago. Maybe he had some help remembering. Of course some people are gifted that way too. How many people at the age of 12 or so decide that some day they will write a book/s and start a journal?

I never heard of "blue discharges" either. My first federal job was with the psychiatry & neurology consultants division of the Army Surgeon General. This office reviewed discharge requests and made recommendations. (Some of the pictures and excuses were unbelievable.) They all were given "dishonorable" discharges....no blue ever entered into it. Maybe it was a Navy thing?

I am now on Chapter 5.

I had always heard that, as Robby posted earlier, the emperor was a good and peaceful man who was totally controlled by the war lords.

Just read a review of a brand new book, name and author escaping me at the moment. Book says that has been myth and fable from day one. Says the emperor ran Japan AND the war lords! Says the country bent over backwards after the war to erase this impression. Says it was all a hoax and Hirohito was MOST responsible for the war.

This is not an endorsement of either theory; just throwing it out there.

p. 114: "I probably would not have gotten a job at the Sun that day, but my world might certainly have changed--and some other people's worlds--if the sun had been shining that day." People like Nixon, I suppose. "Might" seems to be the pivotal word. No one can really know if Bradlee would have gotten another chance to work for The Post if he had passed up the first chance.

near the top of p. 116: "That's a sportswriter's byline." Is Lippmann referring to the words "Post Reporter"? Some of these supposed punchlines or witticisms falter because they aren't explained.

p. 117: " . . . wave their tallywhackers around . . . ". Sounds like entrapment to me. But of course, in court the cops would simply deny they were "waving".

bottom of 120, top of 121: " . . . wondered whether it was big enough for J. Edgar Hoover's ego . . .". In my view, this guy may have done a greater disservice to the country than Joe McCarthy. McCarthy's star soared and then sputtered, but Hoover--a racist who had no understanding or respect for the Bill of Rights--went on "serving" for what--40 years? That the F.B.I. building is named after him strikes me as obscene.

p. 128: To me, the "deal" worked out by publisher Graham seems wise, within the context of those times.

Okay, one hell of a big war intervened, but if Bradlee and Jean "never really got much past being young friends", I have to wonder why they got married in the first place. But in those days, some people drifted into marriage simply because marriage was the "normal" thing for young adults.

near the bottom of p. 130: "Just at this time, I got offered a job. This had never happened to me before". Yes it did, back on p. 115.

132: Don't understand the decision to go to Paris. It's a great city. But to go there as a flunky, a flack?

Sorry if these comments sound cranky or petty. They are not so intended. Maybe they just reflect my acidic personality!

Best wishes.

"Okay, one hell of a big war intervened" are my comments regarding a passage on p. 130. (I have had bad experiences trying to edit my posts, particularly long ones. Better to amend via a new post.)

The Rambler - I didn't understand what was meant by that sportswriter byline either?

Concerning the thread commenting on new interpretations of the role of Hirohito as a leader in wartime Japan: When the first mention was made of a recent book with a re-interpretation of the role of the Emperor, it suddenly occurred to me that I heard of such a book early this year. I think the original post was by Ginny who mentioned it again in message #227 that said she had deleted the original message but would bring it up again on the History board. The book no doubt is the following listed in the B & N catalog as:

Herbert P. Bix, “Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan,” ISBN 006019314X, August 2000, $28.00

There is a short comment and description by the publisher in the B & N catalog, but I found no reviews of this book in the New York Times book review archives. I too know nothing about the author, Herbert Bix. There are also several other books on the history of modern Japan in the B & N catalog that appear interesting.

DUNMORE - Do you live in New Hampshire? Are you reading Bradlee's book? What a fellow this Loeb was and his wife is still running the paper as I understand it. Click here: Loeb and the Union Leader

The name just reminded of that famous case, Leopold and Loeb, which Clarence Darrow defended - I don't know the author of the book I read, no doubt many books have been written about the case. Here's a picture and brief story: The Leopold and Loeb case

JIM - Your statement - "Hubert Humphrey, who knew every organizational political trick in the book and fought fire with fire using such tactics as packing meetings- switching meeting times and places at the last minute, etc. That's standard politics, isn't it, or is that too cynical?

EMMABARB - The "psychiatry & neurology consultants division of the Army Surgeon General?" Good heavens, how many on the staff? Were they all doctors? Can a soldier protest if he is given a dishonorable discharge, and, if so, to whom? Does he have to pay an attorney to represent him? And you think the "blue discharge" was just a Navy thing? Interesting!

RAMBLER - You are a darn good Editor! I would have just passed over some of those comments but you caught a few errors, and I agree with you wholeheartedly about Hoover. There's another guy we should read about and I'd like to know why they named the building after him, too. Since when does longevity in office qualify you for being a good director? From what little I know, they were all afraid of him in Washington because of his secret files wherein he kept the "dirt" on everyone.

I think Bradlee would be tickled to answer some of your questions, if he ever finds his way aboard. Incidentally, I never knew that the stories "above the fold" of a newspaper were of such importance. But that would be the first story that catches your eye; however, I always spread my paper out and scan the first page.

Wonder what he thinks of the USA TODAY paper? What do you think of it?

Which is more important today in the newspaper business - the importance of the news or the importance of sales (pg.117).

HELLO MARYPAGE! - Is the book Harold mentioned the one you were thinking of - we'll ask Ginny when she comes in if she knows more about this book. Anybody else interested in discussing it? We can propose the book in "Coming Attractions" and see if enough people are interested in it - shall I?

Back later - keep those great comments coming!

My comment about Humphrey being an expert in dirty political organizationbal tactics was not cyncial- just an observation.

I have had to return the book to the library and my posts in the future will probably not fit our schedule but ramble a little as I won't be able to pinpoint comments to chapters- I dislike that method of discussiing a book to begin with.

I am reading the Graham book and I note that she comments on the Post cover-up of the swimming pool riot story with the same facts that Bradlee gives but she comes down much harder on her husband Phil than Bradlee does.

She saw the cover-up as a mistake. She understood the rationalization but felt a "good" newspaper had no business acting as a social or political agent or making any kind of deals with politicians even if the outcome was good- and they should have printed the story.

I agree with her.

I may be a little unfair to Bradlee here, but as I recall his concerns were mainly about losing a good by-line and credit for a great breaking story- with only an afterthought to the principles involved- and her concern was right on in terms of how journalism should serve the public.

I did comment on the Bix book and deleted my post as I felt it belonged somewhere else.

Ella: When we stay in remote motels, I often go down to get coffee and then tell my bride that the lobby has no newspapers, only USA Today.

Jim: I'm lucky. Our local library has two copies of the Bradlee book. So when my time ran out on the first one, I returned it and borrowed the other one.

I just said in the Cafe I was going to close down and go read my book and it's really weird....it brought me right here. Now I guess I'll be reading all about Bradlee's affair in this chapter. He talked about several one-night stands and some mistakes (whatever that means) but now this. Do you think he's being too honest?

Ella Gibbons, Well there was the doctor who did the consultations. He was an M.D. and a bird colonel. I remember he had black coffee and a hard-boiled egg every day for lunch--it was my job to get it and have it on his desk exactly at 1 o'clock. Then myself of course and only two or three other people in two offices. We were housed in a temporary building at the time right down from the Lincoln Memorial. I could walk across the street to have lunch at the Red Cross Building and see it from there. I was very young and inexperienced and all of that was pretty exciting to me. I don't recall any protests of dishonorable discharge by the time they got to our office it was pretty much a done deal if my memory serves me. I don't recall in those days if you could get an attorney to represent you or not.

I used to love the Evening Star newspaper in D.C. I haven't seen mention of this paper in Bradlee's book yet. Of course it folded many years ago. I read the WashingtonPost and Baltimore Sun papers online these days and it's free. I wonder what Mr Bradlee thinks about having the paper online.

Jim - I meant my comment was cynical when I stated that's just politics yesterday, today and forever.

One comment on K. Graham's remarks on the "pool" incident. That is easy to say in today's climate; but would she have printed it? Different times call for different measures and as Bradlee states "the way it was handled at that time probably prevented riots and he goes on, of course, and says that no paper would dare handle the matter in that manner today!

They couldn't. Reporters would talk. Whistleblowers would blow their whistles....... TIME and NEWSWEEk would put on a full-court press…..Newsroom outrage, that new flowering American democracy, would erupt

In my opinion, Bradlee is stating, as he did in the "Kerosene Journalists" link above, that the press today is too quick to act in many instances and try too hard to scandalize the news. Everything in the news is a catastrophe or a tragedy and they play it to the hilt!

Jim, you and Jane, can both be our resource persons with the K. Graham book and see how the two versions of the same incidents mesh. Sorry you didn't renew the book or get another copy, but we'll jog your memory from time to time!

Bradlee mentions the Washington Times-Herald in this chapter and its owner, Cissy Patterson. There is more later about this paper and its owner, but I can't remember what Graham or Bradlee say - but we'll get to that in suceeding chapters.

RAMBLER Your opinion of USA TODAY came through loud and clear. Still you bought a copy!

EMMABARB What chapter are you reading? An affair? One-night stand? I must have missed that - tell me on what page. As Mark Twain said - "News is anything that causes a woman to say, 'My Goodness.'" Haha

See, you have a pretty good memory yourself - even remember what the good doctor had for lunch. Isn't it strange, remembering those little details!

I looked in the Index at the back of the book, Emmabarb, and I don't see a reference to the Evening Star anywhere.

Good question about papers online! Yes, I've wondered, too. I know several people that don't take the paper at all anymore, just rely on TV and online news. I'm still taking it, like it with the morning coffee and breakfast - old habits, you know.

Am on the go all day tomorrow, so won't be in until Monday when we travel to Paris - oh, the city of my dreams!! I've never met a person, or read a book about a person who has been to Paris, who didn't love it! Must go, must go, before I get any older. To Paris, that is - right now I'm off to bed with a book!

To excuse the printing of the riot story by relating it to modern day trash journalism is a cop out.

It was not a scandal- not a "sensationalizing" story but a legimate important story about the sorry state of race relations in the United States at that time.

We are only now begining to realize the state of those relations with the publication of a number of non-sensationalizating legimate histories of the era. Things our newspapers did not tell us much about.

It was trivilaized and should not have been. The fact that the press now goes the opposite direction is no reason to look at the incident as a "right" decison.

How are we supposed to trust the Post later in its important coverage of the Pentagon Papers and Watergate when we learn it dissembled on other coverage?

One of the things I noted in the Graham book was a sort "by the way" comment she made in which she expressed her embarrassment that her son Don's girlfriend was among those marching in protest at the 1964 (I think it was 64) dem convention in support of the Mississipii Freedom delegation.

I remember at the time I contributed a small sum to support that group and was proud to do it- not embarrassed.

Bradlee describes himself as excited and nervous upon visiting the White House. At the top of p. 123, he is unexpectedly called upon to translate French for President Harry Truman, yet he does not tell us a word about Truman or the setting. Was it the Oval Office? How did Truman look? Was he bored? Cordial? Tired-looking? Friendly? Aloof? Homespun? Stiff?

What did Truman and the French visitors discuss? Presumably Bradlee was briefly introduced to Truman. What did the two say to each other?

For a guy with such a good memory for long-ago people, places, and events, does he have no memories of conversing (albeit as translator) with the President of the United States? He dismisses it with "I made do . . .".

Ella: I have never bought USA Today. When motels have it, it's a giveaway, often delivered to your door. Nothing is exactly what it's worth.

Rambler: I agree in your opinion of "USA Today." Of course it is intended to be a National Newspaper as opposed to most others that include local material. I have always assumed that is why it is popular as a hotel hand out where the guests are generally not locals. I would not be interested in a subscription myself and I suspect I could count the number of times I have purchased a copy on the fingers of one hand.

I suggest you ask our author when he joins us your questions about Bradlee's translating the conversation between Trueman and the French President at the White House.

The Washington Star is mentioned in Chapter 7, as is the one night stands and extramarital affairs. No details though....seems he was in a sexual discovery that his marriage did not offer. The Evening Star...of course I'm referring to the evening edition of the Washington Star, went belly up in the early 1980's after being in business for like 120 years or so.

I was not able to read any today as my son and grandsons were here and I'm too tired to open a book tonight but I'm nearly finished with Chapter 7.

My book did NOT arrive before the weekend, so I am now looking for it to arrive in a day or two....hoping, waiting, looking....

USA Today? Is THAT a newspaper? You couldn't prove it by me!

Sun

HI JIM - Certainly most of us supported the Freedom Marches and the government forcing the South to integrate - long overdue! However, in this one incident, a decade before the Civil Rights Act, I think Phil Graham was acting responsibly, being accountable for the consequences of his actions which the press rarely does, in preventing bloodshed and at the same time getting all the pools integrated, which was the end result. We have opposing opinions which makes a conversation more interesting, don't you think? As they say, if we all liked chocolate ice cream, why bother with all the other flavors?

Do you agree that though the press was less than honest, by way of omission, in the early part of this century than it is today, it was a kinder press? One great example, and there are many, - the public was not told that Roosevelt was crippled and he was having an affair.

I would have liked to hear more about Truman also, RAMBLER, however, Bradlee knows there are abundant books about Truman, but only one this one about himself. This is his memoir and he is telling us what he wants us to know about his personal life and his opinions of events and what we would like to know does not always coincide with his own. I have read one book about Truman, but I can't remember which one.

EMMABARB - you were ahead of me in the book. Yes, Chapters 6 and 7, love affairs, which he admits were selfish and inconsiderate. He wasn't in love with those women, he was after adventure and took the opportunities as they arose.

Authors Irwin Shaw and Teddy White - have any of you read their books? I know I've read something by Irwin Shaw and I meant to look up his books before getting on this morning, will later. "The Young Lions" was made into a movie as I remember - did it star Katharine Hepburn? White's novel FIRE IN THE ASHES sounds interesting and I'm going to get it at the Library - it could possibly be a good one for us to discuss in the nonfiction genre.

Were you surprised to learn that we gave France a billion dollars to aid in fighting Indonesia? And then, of course, we turned around and spent billions of more dollars and caused the death of countless wonderful young lives in fighting the same war, for a different reason. But this is not the subject of this book - we could go on and on about the blunders and the cost of those blunders forever. I knew France had fought to keep her colonial territory, but not that we aided in the scheme.

And in this chaper Bradlee writes about the McCarthy era and Cohn and Schine. I had not known they went to Europe attempting to cause all kinds of havoc over there - did you know that? Love the British reporters who were outraged by the "little wankers thinking they were going to investigate the BBC." And didn't you love the headline in the English Press - "LOOK MA - WE GOT CREDENTIALS!" British wit! Love it!

Bradlee has some great stories to tell in this chapter - love the Art Buchwald stores. Next time you are at the Library, do get his two autobiographies LEAVING HOME - I'LL ALWAYS HAVE PARIS Just delightful! I'm going to get a couple of his other books now that I'm reminded of him again. Just love that man!

TIME TO FORGET THE USA TODAY PAPER! I've never read one, see it in front of restaurants all the time

SUNKNOW - We are waiting for your comments also. We are on Chapters 6 -10, but when you get the book, just comment on anything that strikes you or something one of us has said.

I'm probably alone in this, but I think USA TODAY fills a nice niche. I don't regard it as my local paper nor does it take the place of news magazines like TIME, NEWSWEEK, US NEWS..., or the TV news programs. But it does often present graphics that explain clearly, to me at least, things I don't always understand...ie, the details of a submarine and why it could not surface, the various space craft, weather graphics, etc. I think their color and graphics are splendid and I find things there I do find in my local papers or the news magazines.

Now, back to Mr. Bradlee and his memories.

š...jane›

About the only time I look at USA Today is when I am in a motel and I find it outside my door but, like Jane, I do find the graphics of interest.

Robby

EmmaBarb, I met Art Buchwald once. It must have been at least 18 years ago, give or take. Cannot remember precisely because I cannot remember whether I was shopping for a child or grandchild. Whichever makes a difference in the year. There was some item EVERY child had to have for Christmas and I had looked and looked. Finally wound up in the small, exclusive toy section of an expensive store. Who joined me at the counter looking for EXACTLY the same item? HIMSELF! We chatted about the mania for this whatever-it-was and he said he was going to write a column about it. I looked for it and, sure enough, there it was a week or so later.

These comments are confined to chapter 6. On p. 138-9, Bradlee flies to N.Y. to read the transcript of the Rosenberg trial. I wonder why that was necessary? Was the transcript under lock and key, not a public record? Couldn't a copy be airmailed to Paris?

I don't remember if the Rosenbergs were communists or not. Also don't remember the dates of their alleged crimes. If they happened while war was still raging in Europe, perhaps it was reasonable for them to think of the USSR as an ally that deserved to have every weapon we could give them.

Can someone explain this passage on p.140?: "If everything proceeded the way I felt sure it would, Cohn and Schine would be ridiculed, and they would seek revenge on everyone who had anything to do with it. I needed to involve Ambassador Dunn--. . . He gave a green light, but asked me to clear it with Graham Martin." How does clearing "it" (a press conference?) with Dunn and Martin reduce the likelihood that Cohn and Schine would/could seek revenge? If there's a connection here, I don't see it.

On p. 143, just below the middle: ". . . in the bravest ambassadorial gesture I know anything about, changed my classification from "Top Secret" to "Eyes Only SecState", and appreciably strengthened the recommendation that the book be unbanned ASAP". What is the connection between Bradlee's secrecy classification and the "unbanning" of a book he didn't write?

Top of p. 145: If Bradlee's German is poor but he's trying to rent a bicycle from a guy who spoke perfect English, why did the transaction take an hour? The nonsequiturs seem to abound.

Middle of p. 150: It's not clear, but I guess the assumption here is that Bradlee might convert to Catholicism in order to marry his paramour. And if he did convert and wanted to remarry, he would have to get his marriage to Jean annulled. Otherwise, I don't quite see why a Vatican representative is talking to him.

Good heavens, Rambler...I can't wait to get this book and see for myself. You have found so much wrong with it, I'm amazed it ever made it to print. Must be an 'Editor' editing the 'Editor' syndrome. I will have to re-read all your post, to search out these page numbers, when my book arrives. Or maybe, I'll just enjoy the book.

Sun

Do not have time to seek answers to all those questions, RAMBLER, but here is a site about the Rosenbergs - and this site is full of grammatical errors, both large and small - you'll have a good time there! Hahaha

The Rosenbergs

MaryPage - I loved all the references to Art Buchwald too. I never thought of him as a serious writer. I still enjoy reading his column on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the WashingtonPost. He has been reprinting some of his favorite columns. I enjoyed Chapter 7 of Bradlee's book, especially the part about observing the war from a yellow taxi. I'd say Bradlee was a lucky man to have lived to tell about it.

Well, darn, everyone has a name to drop but me! Does it count that I was once at a breakfast given for Geraldine Ferraro? Hahahaha - loved her though, she had that audience under her thumb.

No, Art Buchwald isn't a serious writer - bet he could, though - just a fun one. Keep him reserved for a rainy day and when everything seems to be going wrong.

Don't mind me. As mentioned back in #224, I may be inclined to nitpick.

I just think some of Bradlee's tales would be more effective and enjoyable if they were explained more clearly.

the rambler has very few nits to pick in chapter 7.

(bottom of p. 165): Why was it decided to throw the porn out the car window? Because porn is taboo in a moslem country? It would be nice to be told the reason.

The paragraph that begins near the bottom of p. 171 is especially well crafted, I think.

Okay, how long did we drive the submarine captain around? Half an hour, as on page 182, or two hours, as in the caption for photo #13?

The "small type" dispatches in this chapter seem particularly well done.

I think the short fact situation given at the site posted by Ella pretty well describes the basic facts of the Rosenberg case. Of course immense amounts of detail are missing from this sketch. The arrest of the Rosenberg’s in 1950 came about the same time as the beginning of the Korean War and the war psychology at the time of the trial surely contributed to the verdict. Also during the appeals the McCarthy anti-Communism panic was in full swing. As the short fact description on the web site indicates, the government offered a lesser sentence if they would admit guilt. The purpose of the government of course was to show through the confession that the Soviet Union was involved in espionage within the U.S. As I remember the situation on the day of the execution, the lines were open right up to the time of the early evening execution. I suppose their refusal of the government’s offer can be interpreted in either of two ways, they had nothing to confess, or they accepted execution rather than involve the Soviet Union.

The statement of Eisenhower when denying clemency quoted in the web fact outline seems a bit over done, since the production of an atom bomb by the Soviet Unit with or without the Rosenberg contribution was inevitable.

Two books by Michael Meeropol (one of the Rosenberg’s sons) have been published.. They are “We Are Your Sons” in 1986 and “The Rosenberg Letters” in 1994. Both are mentioned in the B & N catalog, but are apparently out of print and available only through the associated dealer network as used books.

Harold, if that book was written by one of the Rosenberg's sons why is his last name different?

Rambler - I had the same thought about throwing those porn pages out the window, why mention that? Also I had a note to myself on that paragraph you mention (bottom of pg. 171) to type it in because I thought it was great. I'll type it in later when I finish Chapter 6 - still on that one.

Ella Asked,

Harold, if that book was written by one of the Rosenberg's sons why is his last name different?

The two small boys were adopted by a family named "Meeropol."

Yes,

We did generally have a kinder gentler mainstream press in Bradlee's and Phil Graham's time-

It did ignore FDR's polio- it did nor report on Kennedy's sexual life as it does now for various and sundry public figures- etc. etc. And it should have ignored these things, of course. These were not important facts that would shape our history and destiny as a nation.

But it was not a press that gave us an accurate picture of important events of the times. Nor does the current press.

It is really doubtful that the press ever was, is, or could be a source of accurate information about important contemporary events.

Most of the press would have missed Watergate if it had not been for the Post- but that doesn't mean the Post didn't miss many other things.

Questions raised by message #267

But it was not a press that gave us an accurate picture of important events of the times. Nor does the current press. It is really doubtful that the press ever was, is, or could be a source of accurate information about important contemporary events. Most of the press would have missed Watergate if it had not been for the Post- but that doesn't mean the Post didn't miss many other things

Jim: I’m inclined to agree with the thoughts suggested in your message #267. You might expand a bit on its application. By “press” do you mean the traditional print newspaper, or the much broader new media (radio, TV internet) and even the entertainment media like Leno and Letterman who continually make comedy out of politics and government? You are concern about the ability of reporters, editors, and publishers to ignore news events, but how about their ability to slant news reporting by the injection of their editorial views on the subject? If we cannot get accurate information on contemporary news events from the press, where can we get it?

Oh dear I've just finished Chapter 10. Should I wait or what? Bradlee's statement about can a reporter also be a friend is interesting. Hmmmmmm....I wonder......

EmmaBarb: I wondered about that myself...and wonder if he and JFK were truly "friends" or were they each using the other for whatever gains each got from the "relationship." I find Bradlee's claim that he knew nothing of JFK's "women" a bit hard to believe...esp. when it turns out one was his SIL. It seemed as if a lot of other reporters, etc. in DC knew, apparently from later reports, but chose not to say anything...but BB didn't know?

š...jane›

Mr. Bradlee probably means he did not have first hand knowledge.

Here in the Metropolitan D.C. area, we ALL heard the rumors. For instance, I heard not only details, but names. Had a very good friend whose husband's brother was Secret Service. I thought at the time that the details I heard were more likely true than not, but never dreamed I would be reading them in the history books! I would not have said I "knew" about them either, since all I knew was rumor.

Hold up EMMABARB AND JANE - Please! Are you both on Chapter 10? We have two people who are just now getting their books and will be trying to catch up with us, so slow down just a little - we are ahead of our schedule posted above.

Although I must tell you I agree with both of you about Bradlee and Kennedy; did either of you read CONVERSATIONS WITH KENNEDY?

Now I have a bit of name-dropping, only the names are not what one would brag about. On pg.155 Bradlee tells a story about a mobster and mentions Lucky Luciano. Shortly after moving to a small village near Columbus, Ohio in 1961, I read in our paper that Lucky Luciano had been released from prison because he was dying of cancer and was with his daughter in our little town of Gahanna (at that time it had a population of 3000; and it wasn't too long after that Dr. Sam Shepard, (the famous doctor defended by F.Lee Bailey for murdering his wife), came to our little village and set up a practice of medicine. Whooee! So we were on the map for a short time - Luciano died and Sam Shepard's practice died and he slowly killed himself with alcohol after drifting around a few years. Would you brag about that? Haha

RAMBLER and I both like this paragraph so I'm going to type it in for those that may be lurking or don't have the book. I'm sure all veterans would agree to this:

"Even when it's dangerous-a war, a revolution, a plane ride in an uninsurable vehicle, where the old bromide about the pilot wanting to survive as much as you do seems at least debatable-the adrenaline high is incredible, and long-lasting. Listen to a war correspondent talk about a night under fire in Vietnam's III Corps, and thirty years later it will sound like last night. Listen to a foreign correspondent who wandered in fear and consternation through the streets of Budapest in the fall of 1956 and you will hear passion forever, no matter how much the story is filtered through modesty, true or false. Listen to a man who will never be the same after seeing Rwanda and know the power of history, seen firsthand."

"The power of history seen firsthand." Good phrase and true I would think.

In the footnote on page 178, I read about another book I'm adding to my list - MEMOIRS OF A FORTUNATE JEWS Sounds interesting.

Bradlee in these chapters is questioning himself, his life, his marriage, his decisions and I admire that. He is letting the reader know he is not a complete man, not many of us are in my opinion. And I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about either, so I'll just stop.

More later!

MARYPAGE We were posting together. You probably are right there. Bradlee may have heard, but didn't know firsthand. I've often wondered if that was one of several reasons Jackie married Onassis and removed herself and her children from this country because of the "dirt" being showered on her dead husband. Do you think she knew of his affairs?

Harold,

I was using the term press in a broad sense to include various of the media and, of course, we can't get accurate and detailed information from TV if for no other reason than it doesn't have the technical capability of handing the printed word at any length (can only hold "RAT" for 1/30th of a second.)

TV could not have published the Pentagon Papers- we came close there to getting a contemporary picture of events-

But the print media- no matter what good intentions it has- is also limited in what it can do to be both objective and comprehensive and most of all inclusive- It must select its content and that selection has to take commercial aspects of the publishing business into account.

We are now facing an energy shortage that has deep roots going far beyond then current OPEC crises. The world economy is expanding and energy use is following. Let us see which media gives us a comprehensive picture of that situation divorced from the current political campaign and sound bites- then maybe we can decide that media can be given some credence to help us understand our changing contemporary world.

Which media slants the situation to find fault with this or that political structure- avoid it as an accurate source.

re- Kennedy- In his last chapter (sorry I can't read and discuss a book chapter by chapter - maybe I should just opt out of this discussion) Bradlee talks about his errors in covering Kennedy and his reinterpretaion of some very important flaws in Kennedy's character going beyond womanizing.

I would like to see Bradlee and Graham for that matter write their histories of that era- not just autobiographies- but researched material ala some of Woodward's books . Both are good writers and both can still share their insights and expertize with us looking at the world beyond their own navels. (or in Bradlee's case another member of his anatomy)

Bradlee did a little of this in his book on Iran Contra and the threat that people like North present to our form of balanced power governement. He should do more of this kind of writing.

Ella: Sorry..I thought we were on the schedule posted...chapters 6-10 this week.

If we are not, what chapters are we talking about?

I was referring to information in chapter 9...p. 217: "My friends have always had trouble believing my innocence of his activities, especially after it was revealed that Tony's sister, Mary Meyer, had been one of Kennedy's girlfriends. So be it. I can only repeat my ignorance of Kennedy's sex life...."

š...jane›

Jane ~ I found that a bit hard to swallow too that Bradlee claimed he knew nothing of JFK's 25 women or so (ha). I thought it was strange he wrote in a journal every night after he got home from being in JFK's company and left that part out. Jackie got very upset didn't she when she found out Bradlee had been keeping a journal. You sure cannot keep stuff like that from the tabloids in this day and age....they thrive on it.

Ella ~ Oops! Sorry about that. I've not read Conversations with Kennedy. May check it out sometime.

I think Jackie knew of her husband's affairs but didn't want to give up being The First Lady any more than our present first lady does.

Sorry, Jane, I thought you and Emmabarb were going beyond Chapter 10!

Don't leave Jim! Your remarks are too valuable and provide insights we would not ordinarily have. As discussion leaders, it is easier to go this way than skipping over the whole book and, of course, that is just an opinion, but it keeps us together and remarking on all the same passages.

I have not read Woodward's books; see him on CNN often however. Tell us about the ones you have read and how accurate they are. Know we would all be interested. Are they all on Watergate or history in general? What ever happened to Bernstein? Is he still at the Post?

Jim: Stick around. We value your comments, though if you get too far ahead we may not always understand. You have interesting insights.

I'm in tears reading Chapter 11, I didn't realize how reading about those events would bring those emotions to the surface once again. That's all I'll say for now.

This post comments on Jim Olson’s post #274. When I first read this message I did not catch the meaning of the “RATS” reference as I had been at my National Park work all day (yesterday) and had not heard the news. Now of course, I know. I see nothing in Jim’s comments that are much out of step from my concept of the press and its role in our society though I have to admit an apparent appreciation of the sound bite sized TV or radio news casts. The truth is that most of my news intake comes from listening to NPR between 5:30 and 8:00 in the morning and again during the day from time to time in the automobile. Speaking of the latter I find concentration difficult at this moment as I have just taken delivery or a new Taurus automobile which is number 18 in a long line going back to the first, a 1946 Chevrolet purchased used in 1950. I do agree with Jim’s observation also expressed in #274 concerning the present prospects for serious disruption in gasoline and particularly this winter, heating oil. Jim Olson is right in saying that the pending crisis goes beyond the current OPEC production policy. We have not shown much inclination to formulate the policies required by the situation.

Finally and sincerely, I do hope Jim Olson sticks around and continue his participation in our discussion. I really see nothing wrong with making reference to a later chapter to support a point about a current chapter. This is different from each of us randomly commenting on different chapters. I think that Ella’s concern is to keep the group together which is particularly necessary since some have only recently began reading the book. In any case Jim, we do value your input and hope to hear more from you in the future.

As Bradlee is, I've always been amazed that the Israelis can live and work surrounded by enemies! And it's such a small country and some of those Arab countries are huge. I'm going to quote Bradlee here as he puts it better - should I put in the footnote on pg. 182, which is funny, but sad also!

I was and remain blown away by Israel and the Israelis, by their energy, by their arrogance, their condescension to those of us who are not accustomed to living within range of enemy guns, by their commitment, by their idealism. I never really understood it when Israelis told me how close their enemies were until I saw and heard those guns.

I was stunned by how American many of them were-in their aspirations and values, and in fact. If you yelled, 'Anyone here from the States?' hands always went up.'

Not long ago I either read or saw it on TV that the next problem the Israelis may have is a civil war in their own country, between the Orthodox Jews and the modern Jews (there is a word here but can't think of it - Help!) - it isn't "Modern" - what is it?

I will always remember during the Gulf War holding my breath, after Israel was bombed with Scuds by Iraq, for fear they would retaliate and bring the whole coalition of Allies down. If so, there would have been the ballgame! It would have been Arab countries against the rest of the world. Will it ever happen do you think? The oil-producing nations holding all of us hostage?

Is "secular" the word you want for "modern"?

Aren't the most liberal the "Reformed" and the more conservative are the "Conservative" and the "Hasidic" (sp?)???

š ...jane›

In case you are worried about some of us catching up....Me, for instance, don't worry about it for now. Just carry on.

Yes, my book arrived, and so has news that my sister and BIL are on the way from Odessa to visit, and that has put a halt to my reading to catch up, as I catch up (slowly) on housekeeping. So, carry on....It's not going to bother me one way or the other.

Will get back to you later....so far, the book is very good.

Sun

I am not Jewish, but I have been to Israel. I think that in Israel, the religious Jews are mostly Orthodox. "Reform" and "Conservative" are mostly American denominations that hardly exist there. I suspect that the non-religious Jews probably outnumber the Orthodox, but the latter are well organized and aggressive.

Yikes, thanks, Rambler, I forgot "orthodox." Good to know the differences in Israel and here.

š ...jane›

Wonderful article if you all caught it, in Sunday's NY Times about just that: what is the difference in the various sects of Orthodox Judaism to shmita? (The practice spelled out in the Torah of letting all fields lie fallow in every seventh year).

It's caused confusion and consternation this year in Israel, and it's fascinating.

Do look it up, if you get the chance.

Of course now that we have the "insiders" look, as it were, at journalism, I wonder if I will ever look at a newspaper article the same way. I have noted a big difference in the news magazines we take: US News, Newsweek, and Time.

It makes you wonder, doesn't it? I'm glad Ella wanted to read this book!

I'm learning a lot.

ginny

I have finished both the Graham book and the Bradlee book that cover much of the same historical events and find them both valuable and intereresting in their own way.

For me as a reader the Bradlee book seemed to pick up as he moved along and the Graham book became submerged in newspaper publishing details with only an occasional glimpse at the wider world around it.

She becomes very defensive in the later chapters- defensive about many things as she became the object of many political and journalistic attacks-

She has a right to be defensive as the attacks were vicious and for the most part baseless- but her defenses against them take up too much of the book.

After the first reference or so I got a little tired of hearing about the wringer and the breast- and the details of the strike went on ad naseum.

She does throw out some interesting historical insights, one being the self isolaion of the Carter Whitehouse from the Washington scene that hampered his administration in many ways.

She also treats the role of women in business in that era from a very insightful insiders persepctive.

I think the later chapters of the Bradlee book tend to be more focused on larger events and their implications.

I would not have given her the Pulitzer prize over Bradlee (actually that isn't an issue as her book came out later and wasn't in direct competition)

But both were interesting and thought provoking books.

Thanks, JANE AND RAMBLER I think! It is the Orthodox against ____________ whatever. Rambler, how long were you there? Did it seem to you there many Americans or at least an American-style of living? Here again, I may be mistaken, but don't the Orthodox Jews want to speak Hebrew only? Did most of the population speak English? Tell us about your trip as I would love to go.

GINNY - I missed the article - what is "shmita?" Where shall I look for it? Can't you tell us a little about what you read? Come back, Ginny!

It's not been my best day by far (what has been my "best day?" - wonder how I could look that up - what's been your best day?) - well, it hasn't been the worst, but computer problems are terrible! Just terrible - spent the morning on the phone to tecs.) Consider myself extremely lucky to have found a way on tonight! It's not through wisdom or even expert help from the tecs.

JIM - Was I surprised at your comments? Those of you who have read K.Graham's book - JANE - I know you have. GINNY didn't you? Are you surprised that Jim liked Bradlee's book better than Graham's and he disagreed about the Pulitizer Prize?

It's been a year or two since I read her book, but when you mentioned the strike that jerked my memory. I remember that description going on and on - and, of course, from the owner's view that would cut into profits; whereas I'm sure Bradlee was getting paid. But a great objective opinion about both books, JIM and thanks!

Perhaps you can explain this Lindley Rule to me - or anyone? I know a reporter does not have to reveal his source, but it seems to me this is saying (pg.192) that the reporter is the source? How deceitful that is if I'm understanding it correctly.

Wouldn't you like to be told the following by someone you trust? (pg.191) How Washington works, who runs things and how, who is important and why! Gee, now that's the "top of the news" wouldn't you say?

Back with news and notes on Chapter Nine -

EMMABARB Stop right there! You're being naughty!

I didn't like one book better than the other. I liked Bradlee's ending better but overall I liked the books equally well- each for its own values.

Ella: I read the Graham books some time ago and know I enjoyed it. I can't compare it to Bradlee's...for I've not finished Bradlee's yet. Whether or not any book deserves a Pulitzer or Nobel is an individual judgement, and I often don't agree with the "experts" who choose such things.

š ...jane›

I feel there is a lot more that Ben Bradlee knows about the women in JFK's life and he's not telling. Hope I'm not being naughty.......I'm a couple days ahead of schedule I know, but I've been doing a search on the Internet trying to find some of Mary Pinchot Meyer's paintings (Chapters 11-12). If anyone happens to know of any URLs kindly let me know.

Sorry, Jim you're right, I was in error. I read the Graham book quite awhile ago, couldn't compare them now. But it's interesting that you read them back to back and could and we appreciate those insights!.

EMMABARB - If you find anything on the Internet let us know - we have not come to those chapters yet.

Allowing time for the opening ceremonies of the Olympics tonight - everyone is watching aren't they? - I'm going to put the weekend assignment on the chalkboard right now. Chapters Nine and Ten for your perusal.

We've mentioned the kinder press we had in the past and in relationship to that I must quote this passage from page 209 and ask what all of you think?

When India Edwards called Jack Kennedy a 'spavined little hunchback' in an effort to cast doubts on Kennedy's health, not a line appeared anywhere. Reporters tolerated then what they felt to be the excesses of partisan politics. That toleration has slowly disappeared with a new generation of reporters, and I am not sure who's the better for that.

In this election campaign, is there anything left to know about the candidates? Did we ignore reporters' columns about Clinton and womanizing during his first campaign? Should we have? Did it matter any that the nation was put through the shame of the Clinton/Lewinsky affair by the press? What did the public profit?

RATS!!! Do the ads bother you? What's the best source - or your source - for getting information about the candidates for president and vice-president?

One more question - PLEASE SPEAK UP! I don't want to be here alone, monopolizing the conversation! Did it bother any of you that Kennedy appointed his brother, Bobby, to be Attorney-General? Wasn't that a first for a president to be putting his own sibling in such a prestigious office?

No, his brother as Attorney General didn't bother me. I assume he wanted someone he felt he could trust. As long as RFK was competent, that was fine with me.

š ...jane›

Hi JANE - NO? It did me a little, Bobby was young for that position I thought, and he certainly showed immaturity later in some of his press interviews.

How about JFK leaving Edgar J. Hoover in office whom he did distrust?

I think JFK, as so many of the former Presidents, were scared to death of J.Edgar Hoover.

š ...jane›

I'm sure my silence results from my lifelong indifference to the Kennedys (aside from Teddy, who I like, despite the unforgiveable Chappaquidick). To me, they were mostly bright and pretty people of no particular convictions. I never understood the public's fascination with them. In Illinois in Nov., 1960, I went to the polls to vote for Sen. Paul Douglas (a Quaker who turned out to be a hawk on Vietnam, a war I hated from the start).

I loathed Nixon and was indifferent to John Kennedy, so I did not vote for President. I feel the same toward Clinton. I am a liberal Democrat. Give me somebody to vote for, or I'll sit it out. (This year, maybe Gore, maybe Nader.)

Jane - we should read and discuss a bio of Hoover - would you be interested? I just did a quick search of the Internet and found the following which purport to be the FBI's own files of Hoover. They are hard to read and you need Acrobat Reader, but the very first letter is dated in 1930 and is a letter from Stormin Norman Schwartzkopf's father who was Chief of Police (or some title) in New Jersey and was undoubtedly in connection with the Lindbergh baby's kidnapping. Here's the URL:

FBI files

I would try to edit the above (I have plenty of time), but edits always seem to go awry. So a new post is better.

I always considered Bobby a vicious little bastard, the worst of the Kennedys. Eugene McCarthy had the courage to challenge LBJ in the New Hampshire primary, and only when McCarthy (almost) beat LBJ did Bobby decide that the war was bad for America.

To drop a name, I attended a big meeting in Evanston, Ill., around March, 1968. The featured speaker was David Schoenbrun, and no doubt the topic before the house had to do with Vietnam and the Presidential primaries. Halfway through the forum, somebody charged down the center aisle and handed Schoenbrun a note. He read it and announced, "Can this be true? Eugene McCarthy seems to be running neck-and-neck with President Johnson in New Hampshire". Needless to say, the cheers resounded. A day or two later, LBJ announced he was retiring.

You are in the minority RAMBLER I believe! America was fascinated by this bright young man, who could speak well, adlib well, was handsome and married to a captivating and lovely lady. And the first Catholic to be elected, breaking another barrier. He was a veteran and a hero I guess you would say, which the country always feels good about - but when it came to Clinton, the country forgave him for dodging (understandably?).

What do you like about Teddy? Gosh, I saw him not too long ago, he needs to quit eating - for about a month or two - but he's aging like the rest of us and the pounds come no matter what we do. I could never forget Chappaquidick and the lack of judgment and decency that surrounded that whole secretive affair. He has probably spent his whole life trying to live that down. I was impressed with his son, Patrick, however, during the DNConvention.

Plenty of Kennedys still around!

I don't think I'm up to 1000 pages on Hoover from the FBI tonight, but I have read a bio of him....I recall it had pics on J.Edgar and his dear friend Clyde (?) on vacations, etc. It appeared to me he virtually blackmailed many presidents about their own backgrounds/behaviors when his own raises some questions.

š ...jane›

One way or another, we are all in a minority. Don't bother me a bit.

I'm not up to that either, Jane! Just got past a few of them. Have never pursued a book about Hoover, but have heard all those rumors.

Rambler - Bobby was, I think, vicious, as you say, and I think had he lived that quality would have been needed if used diplomatically. He certainly went after crime in a big way. Where did he get that quality do you suppose - from Daddy? And Daddy was a poor role model when it came to infidelity also!

I don't have any stories to tell, other than an interview I saw on TV not too long before he was killed. When asked a question about the Middle East and how we should handle the problems there, he was quite outspoken about the fact that we should definitely support Israel in keeping the peace in that region and prolonged that response in ways that have always made me believe that the more fanatical groups in Arab countries might have had a hand in his death. It was a poor response to the question, I do remember thinking that, for a presidential candidate.

I feel that was nepotism....JFK appointing his brother Bobby as Attorney General. Apparently there was no federal law at that time against it. At the time though I didn't feel it was wrong.

I was in the same minority Rambler is in.

Never cared for John Kennedy, and hated it that he named that obnoxious Bobby to be his Attorney General.

But recently I read an excerpt from the new book about R.F.K. by Evan Thomas of Newsweek. Hey, we ALL may owe our longevity to Bobby Kennedy. At least, living as close to Washington, D.C. as I do, I KNOW I probably owe him my life. This portion of the book, about the Cuban Missile Crisis, was written from journals and tapes of the conversations in the White House during the crisis. Bobby Kennedy's cool good sense prevailed. Read what almost happened, and shiver. This man was sent to us when we most needed him. I, personally, have done a 180 degree switch.

Emma, unless one has slipped by me, I don’t think there is any law today prohibiting the president from appointing a brother to the cabinet. The Senate of course can refuse to give the confirmation. I remember a lot of comment when Robert Kennedy was appointed AG on the grounds he had no real experience as a lawyer or the running of a large legal operation. I think he turned out rather well. As was pointed out in an earlier post, he came down on crime including Jimmie Holfa.

Does anyone remember the circumstance surrounding the initial Ted Kennedy bid to succeed his brother in the Senate? I have the impression that it took John Kennedy by surprise and he was not particularly pleased

Was anyone else startled to hear JFK talking openly (p. 241) about his Addison's disease? I didn't think that became public knowledge until long after his death.

I wonder about JFK's motive (p. 230) for telling Bradlee, two hours before any other press people got the word, about the Rudolph Abel-Francis Gary Powers spy exchange. Was it a gesture of friendship toward Bradlee, or what?

This speaks well of JFK (p. 239): "After my 'exile' ended, Kennedy remarked to Tony, 'I sure was mad at him, but I forget why, now'".

Harold Arnold - Nepotism policies part of the ethical guidlines in hiring relatives on your own staff. I don't know the exact extent of the laws so am unable to provide anything to back up what I said. I don't really feel like getting into it but anyone interested may find the answer here.

Long before the rumors of womanizing surfaced, I remember this.

On live TV, JFK, about 30 minutes before his inauguration, was walking across the rotunda or one of the other grand areas of the capitol building.

The very attractive Nancy Dickerson, correspondent for one of the big three networks, was standing amid the columns. As he neared, he said, "Hello, Nancy" and she said, "Hello, Mr. President". It occurred to me at the time that this might be more than a casual acquaintanceship.

Could be, RAMBLER could be anyone! Obviously, he knew he could get away with it.

Thanks, EMMABARB for your comments. I would agree that the appointment of Bobby Kennedy was nepotism (couldn't think of that word last night) carried to extreme. As HAROLD said - there may not have been a law against it; nevertheless I think there should be! It is my belief that presidents should be surrounded by advisors who are the most knowledgeable, skilled, and experienced in their appointed field - and Bobby did not have that experience or knowledge to be in that top position. How old was he by then anyway? Not that age brings wisdom, by any means - how I wish it did!

I never knew there was a U.S. Office of Government Ethics until I went to the site you gave us, EMMABARB! They should have a search engine there so we could just get what we are interested in out of it - I don't feel like combing through that long document either. But I do wonder how much power they have to make decisions - do you know?

HAROLD - No, I don't know anything about Ted Kennedy's bid for the Senate seat - there was a time, it seems to me, that the Kennedys every attempt to run for any office, regardless of their ability, was successful. However, I've never read any details of each member of that family's activities in government or business. I'm sure it's been done by someone or it could be on the Internet.

Can you imagine how long we are going to be hearing about Kennedys- Bobby alone had 11 children (nine living now) and ____?__ grandchildren. It boggles the mind! And so many in public life.

I was surprised also RAMBLER that Kennedy said his Addison's disease was out in the open - I never heard about it. But somewhere in these two chapters, Bradlee tells us that the press liked Kennedy and may have buried that information somewhere in the papers and no one saw it? I don't know.

Did anyone else here know about Kennedy's health? I think we all knew he had back troubles supposedly from war injuries; hence the rocking chair! The famous chair - immediately rockers became the rage across America. I have since read that actually JRK's health was deteriorating rapidly - you've probably all read the same thing - and he was on painkillers and prescriptions drugs, etc.

Back later -

Emma, you are probably right that the current Ethic Rules would prohibit nepotism in presidential appointments. It certainly requires prospective appointees to file financial statements and to put their capital assets in a blind trust for the duration of their service. I too am not inclined to probe the issue further, but thanks for the link, which does give a good over view of the present procedure.

Ella, I too never realize JFK suffered from any serious illness during his term in office. The only problem publicized was the bad back that was always pictured as an honorable war memento resulting from wartime naval service. Incidentally the bad back itself could make pain reliving drugs necessary.

True, HAROLD but there were other drugs I heard about - such as prednisone, a fairly new drug at that time, which is not a painkiller. I can't remember what I was reading but he kept this drug at various places where he might be staying so as to always have it on hand, and there were others. Perhaps it was prescribed for the Addison's disease?

MARYPAGE - Tell us more about that book and Bobby Kennedy's role in the Cuban Missile Crisis - I'm very interested! No doubt he played a larger role in those proceedings than any of us realize. Was it you who said that JFK will be remembered by historians for the fact that during his administration we came the closest to nuclear war than we ever had?

Chapters Nine and Ten of Bradlee's book are awash with charming anecdotes of the Kennedy years wherein Bradlee was both a friend and a reporter and, as he admits, the dual roles were at times confusing and difficult. I enjoyed reading the stories, did you?

And you cannot help but think of a decade later when Nixon was in the White House and the difference between the two men. Bradlee uses a few adjectives to describe Nixon in these chapters, e.g. different, joyless, strangely dull, almost hostile, - I would agree with those wouldn't you? Perhaps as good as any description of the difference between these two presidents would be this paragraph on page 236:

Kennedy and the press were made for each other, using each other comfortably, enjoying each other's company, squabbling from time to time the way real friends squabble, understanding the role each played in the other's life…….Reporters liked Kennedy for being instinctively graceful and natural, physically unable to be programmed or to be corny.

Prednisone I understand is a steroid drug with many uses When I had shingles at the tender age of 37 in 1964 it was prescribed because of its anti-irritant qualities. Just this last June my dog's vet gave her a shot for painful arthritis in her hip. One shot and that dog has had no problem since.

Gee Harold, maybe I should get me some of that prednisone for my arthritis. What's the name of your Vet (haha...just kidding)

Like everybody else who's old enough, Bradlee remembers where he was when he heard the news of Kennedy's assassination. He was shopping in a bookstore.

I was working nights at The Tribune, so I was in bed when a co-worker called me that morning. He said, "Kennedy's been shot. Turn on your TV". I remember Walter Cronkite doffing his glasses and rubbing his eyes when the President's death was confirmed.

I was stunned by Bradlee and Tony's callousness and poor judgment in telling Jackie, less than a month after her husband's murder, that they hoped she would marry again. Maybe after a year, if Jackie and the Bradlees were still close, such a comment might be appropriate.

Memories, yes. I can remember, of course, who can't, where I was when I received a phone call from my sister informing me of JFK's death.

I was 13 when Pearl Harbor was bombed but I remember that very well, as I was just getting home from school and kept asking everyone where is Pearl Harbor? Can anyone tell me the time it was announced here in the U.S on the radio?

Oddly enough, I don't remember the day Roosevelt died - I remember thinking he had been our President all my life it seemed. The radio described the train from Georgia bearing the coffin.

I remember where I was on VE day.

I don't remember the day Nixon resigned.

I remember the day JFK got shot. My first born son was three years old and I was a stay-at-home mom. A friend had called to tell me to turn on the tv.

I was 12 and in Virginia when Pearl Harbor was bombed. I believe it was Charles Daly who announced it on the radio just after one o'clock in the afternoon EST. It was a Sunday, Ella. Are you sure you were coming home from school? I had been out roller skating when I came in and was told.

I was 15 and in Louisiana when Roosevelt died. I was cleaning shrimp when the boy next door came in, slamming the screen door behind him, and turned on our radio on his way back to the kitchen to find me.

I was also in Louisiana on V-E day, in Pennsylvania on V-J day, and in Virginia when Nixon resigned.

I was at my job at a bank in Maryland when my husband called to say JFK had been shot.

Sunday, Dec 7, 1941: I was 15 and a freshman in high school. I had been listening to the BBC on a short-wave radio, and when dinnertime came, I set it on the AM broadcast band tuned to WOAI the local NBC outlet. We had just begun the Sunday dinner when the News bulletin came announcing the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I definitely knew where Pearl Harbor was and its significance. The drama of the situation was immediately heightened by the unexplained voice of a female telephone operator calling for a telephone line to the White House. I do not know why this operator’s voice got on the airwaves.

Friday, November 22,1963: I had lunched at the Menger Coffee Shop with an office associate. When we finished we decided to take a fast walk along Alamo Plaza to Houston St to St Marys, to Commerce and back to the office. About half way through the course while passing the Majestic Theater, I heard about two sentences from the news report from a car radio parked on the street. JFK had been shot in Dallas! We hurried back to the office and spent the afternoon following the unfolding of the sad event.

Another event came two days later on Sunday when Oswald was shot in full view of live coverage TV cameras. There was no doubt he had been hit hard. That shooting must be close to the top for live coverage of a news event. Do any of you remember seeing this event?

I remember clearly seeing it AS IT HAPPENED. Of course, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of replays; but I saw the original moment. Sitting up in bed watching. That weekend the whole country remained glued to the tv as never before, or since.

Momentous events! I believe I heard that 2000 books have been written about the Kennedy assasination. It will go on indefinitely!

It was a Sunday when the radio announced Pearl Harbor? Faulty memory I've got. Well, I was coming home from somewhere - I can hope it was Sunday School and church!! Haha. I was never faithful about that, rather hit and miss and still am the same.

All of you have a better memory than I do about Oswald getting shot - I don't know if I saw it when it actually happened or am remembering the replays.

In Chapter Eleven, Bradlee states it well:

Death triggers an introspective search for truth and meaning. The death of a president brings forth a rush of experts to help or complicate this search, and their work is never done. The violent death of John Kennedy played on the natural paranoia of Americans, and made it the most analyzed death in the country's history. The evaluation and reevaluation continues unabated, thirty years after his death, with new books, films and TV specials coming out yearly.

I just read that again and am wondering if Americans are naturally paranoid? Why does Bradlee think we are I wonder?

Does anyone have any comments to make on Chapter 11? The death of JFK and Bradlee's sister-in-law?

Chapter 12 is so interesting to me, I'd just like to get right on with it - shall we?

Before we begin - what memories do you have of LBJ?

I can think of 2 only - golly, that sounds awful. But his "Great Society" proposals. And the greatest of all, his Civil Rights Act. Best of all was LadyBird and her work in beautifying America.

That, to me, was the crowning achievement of all the First Ladies! And it needs to be done again - America is beginning to look tacky again! The state that is the very worse is Florida! I've been three times and each time I say why doesn't this state clean up these highways, they are littered with tacky signs trying to entice the visitor. It really turns me off.

As mentioned to Ella via e-mail, I'm lagging a bit in reading A Good Life because of other commitments.

She asks about memories of LBJ. He is the only President I ever saw in person. I was a Typographical (printers') union delegate to the state labor convention. Rather than hear LBJ's speech to the convention, where he would surely rail against labor laws he had voted for as a Senator, I went to downtown Peoria to hear his public speech. Because it was soon after the assassination, there were helicopters overhead and Secret Service all around.

Anyway, LBJ came walking down the middle of the street, around a curve, where he faced the band and mini-skirted cheerleaders from the local college (Bradley). In mock surprise at seeing the young women, he stopped in his tracks, took a couple of steps back, and went through the motions of straightening his tie and slicking his hair. Corny as hell, and I'm sure he had done it in a hundred Texas towns, but it worked and the crowd loved it.

His speech was the usual hogwash about Every Day, When I Go Behind Those White House Gates, I'm Thankful That the People of Peoria Are Behind Me.

But for Vietnam, I think he would be one of the half-dozen greatest Presidents. I voted for him in '64, but wrote in Gene McCarthy rather than vote for either war-enthusiast (Nixon or Humphrey) in 1968.

LBJ's voting rights act of 1965(?) deserves mention here.

Also, he told Thurgood Marshall, "Thurgood, I'm putting you on the Supreme Court". Not that "I'm nominating you". He knew he had the votes for confirmation.

I’ll open with a comment or two on LBJ. I voted for him many times (in many different elections) and against him at least once. The time I voted against him was the first time I ever voted. That happened also to be LBJ’s first run for the U.S. Senate. It was the Democratic primary in the summer of 1948. I voted for Coke Stevenson the retiring Governor who a friend’s father was supporting. LBJ won by 17 votes amid serious allegations of fraud in a certain deep South Texas county.

In retrospect I soon realized LBJ with all his weaknesses was in fact the better choice. As to the fraud, the later view was that the charge was valid, but though LBJ was the benefactor, he was not a party to the illegal acts. The Courts sustained the election.

I learned several things from this election. First, I learned the meaning of the English word, “tantamount,” as in the sentence, “Winning the Democratic primary nomination is tantamount to election in Texas” (then, not now). The second thing I learned was that 17 votes do count. In this case they not only made a Senator, they also made a future President and earmarked the lawyer LBJ engaged to represent him in the post primary litigation as a future member of the Supreme Court. This was Abe Fortas who in 1965 was appointed an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court by his former client. In 1968 after Earl Warren resigned, LBJ nominated Abe Fortas to be chief Justice, but ratification was blocked in the Senate and the next year Abe Fortas resigned from the Court.

One of the delights of living in a bedroom community to Washington, D.C. is getting to see some of the action.

I remember going down to the Senate to watch a Big vote from the gallery. I think it was autumn 1959, but would not take an oath on it. Nixon was presiding. Johnson was in front row leading. I was sitting in almost a direct line with that front row, at Nixon's right hand. The Junior Senator from Massachusetts, who had a back row seat, walked right underneath me while slipping up to the front to confer with a Senior Senator. Oh, you name them; they were ALL THERE. That was the Senate of Senates!

I was watching tv as Oswald got shot...I couldn't believe it. I also had the tv on when Bobby Kennedy got shot.

Ella ~ I'm still wondering why Bradlee's sister-in-law's murder (Mary Pinchot Meyer) was not investigated further. There had to be a connection with the JFK killing. Whom was afraid she might talk? I'm into Chapter 15 (ha) so go right ahead with Chapter 11.

Bradlee mentions Dan Schor several times in the book. We sat in the same newsroom for about a week during a closed-circuit television show of the first breast cancer surgery. The thing that stands out most about him is he was always bumming my cigarettes. If I ever should run into him I'm going to remind him he owes me (haha).

I remember Lady Bird Johnson more than I do her husband. Mainly because of all her efforts to beautify America. Our state still plants wildflowers along our highways. I'm a little tired of listening to the Lyndon Johnson tapes of telephone conversations on the radio. I thought his language was something awful too.

Gosh, you all have led such interesting lives - it's fascinating to hear from each of you what political and historical connections you have made! There's RAMBLER in a crowd greeting LBJ, listening to a typical "corny" politician's speech, and HAROLD voting for the first time ever in LBJ's first bid for the Senate who won by 17 votes - WOW!, and MARYPAGE actually being in the Senate watching Nixon, LBJ and Kennedy all together and none of them knowing the fate that was soon to be their own and EMMABARB sitting next to Dan Schor. My own life is so fragmentary, doing a bit of this and that, and never going whole "hog" for anything. I've always been on the fringes but enjoying it there.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR RECOLLECTIONS! And Bradlee in this next chapter tells us how to reorganize and manage a great newspaper by spending night and day at the paper and thereby losing his second wife as a result.

Gotta run to store and errands, but will be back tonight to see us off on this newspaper tour --a fascinating story in my opinion. It made me want to relive my life over again and become a reporter, a news-gathering investigative reporter, and turning in MY words, my stories and seeing MY story in the next day's paper - wouldn't that be thrilling!

See ya later -

Living in Wash D.C. and the Maryland suburbs most of my life has made it possible for me to meet and greet many public persons....it's mostly taken for granted when you live around here. You just never know whom you will see in a restaurant, mall or grocery store. My job with the federal government and later the state government also put me in touch with many politicians...it was all part of the job. Maybe I should write a book (haha).

Hi everyone: I've missed you all. Even though it will take me a little time to catch up with you in the Bradlee book I do have a bit to add to the L.B.J. discussion.

To start---a quotation from the Robert Dallek book "Flawed Giant" (the second of a two volume biography of L.B.J. title of the first volume is "Lone Star Rising".To quote, "His Presidency was astory of great achievements and terrible failure, of lasting gains and unforgettable losses".

In his young years Johnson grew up with F.D.R. as his hero. He embraced his programs which carried over into the rest of his life. In the 30s and 40s he supported the New Deal and Fair Deal programs which ultimately helped to transform America, particularly the South and West.Some of the programs he supported were Social Security benefits, Minimum wages, Frm subsidies whiched served not only the farmers but the elderly and the unskilled workers, as well, Black Civil Rights and Space Exploration---NASN. Others were Aid to Education,the building if dams providing flood control, Conservation, cheap rural electrificationand low cost and public housing. I n 1965 he facilitated the passage of Medicare and The Voting Rights Bill.

Another quote from "Flawed Giant"---"Johnson had at least one indisputable triumph for which he deserves credit.He played a large part in bringing the South into the mainstream of the countrys economic and political life" Anyone my age, and I know there aren't many of you, who lived in the in the late 30s and 40s know what a tremendous change was wrought.Johnson saw Federal programs as a means to raise the Southern standard of living, understood that civil rights , in addition to assuring equal treatment for African Americans would also make the South a more equal member of American society.

I'll end this with another quote, same source, by Bradlee He said, in describing meeting Johnson, "You really felt as if a St. Bernard had pawed you all over---He never just shook hands with you. One hand was shaking your hand and the other hand was always someplace else, exploring you, examining you"

If there are a bunch of typos please forgive them, I'm too tired to look for them.

Take care all, Mary

I have visited the LBJ Ranch and its gravesites (including LBJ's) on the banks of the Pedernales river. As tourists, we were told that Lady Bird was nearby.

I have been asked to deliver meals-on-wheels again tomorrow. Also, on Friday, we're going to see the last-place Cubs play their next-to-last home game against the first-place St. Louis Cardinals, so I'll have trouble catching up on Bradlee unless I do it tomorrow afternoon or Thursday. Bear with me.

EMMABARB- I was going to say I'm envious of you seeing all the "recognizable greats" in Washington, but, on the other hand, I am shy and probably would not have temerity to look at them twice. Do they mind people recognizing them and speaking to them - are they flattered - or annoyed? Definitely, write a book! Everyone should write a book! We all have a unique perspective on life, all we need is hours and hours of solitude and patience.

Have any of you read Neil Simon's memoirs? We discussed one of them here in the books and after realizing the time it takes, I doubt I could ever write anything! He wrote his first play 27 times without ever using one word twice - can you imagine that! And then it was rejected! But there was another time he sat in his office for 3 months and didn't write a word - that would be my speed! Hahaha

Great quotes, MARY! and we are so happy to see you back! Do come as often as you can, we love your posts - did you read both of those volumes? This quote in particular: " His Presidency was a story of great achievements and terrible failure, of lasting gains and unforgettable losses". LBJ's failures - the Vietnam War? What else, folks? And unforgettable losses? Not running for his second term? HELP ME OUT!!!! I remember wondering when he accepted the Vice-Presidency why he would give up his power and influence in the Senate for such a position.

Undoubtedly, Medicare (I had forgotten about that!) and the Civil Rights Act were his greatest achievements, do all of you agree? I believe it has been said that had the nation not fought the Civil War, the South would have had to do away with slavery anyway on its own, as it dragged those states down economically. Isn't it strange that a southern man had the foresight to realize the necessity of the Civil Rights Act from all standpoints?

Dogs and LBJ, Mary! Do you remember the fuss that was made by dog owners across America when the picture of LBJ holding his dog up by his ears was displayed in the newspapers? Mercy!

Two things I have noticed about Bradlee's writing - he doesn't do metaphors well. On pg. 275 he uses a "mackerel in the moonlight" - now really! Come on, Bradlee, you can do better than that! I haven't noticed any others -have any of you? Perhaps I'm not reading carefully enough? And one writing technique I do like - often he ends paragraphs with a short sentence - it's effective!

Now about that tour of the Washington Post? Can we go tomorrow? And, RAMBLER we need your experience with a paper when we go, so hope you can be with us.

When you see famous people in Washington and suburbs, you leave them alone. I only spoke to Art Buchwald because he spoke to me first. We were alone and thrown together, as it were, in that toy department.

Sometimes you meet them at parties, but you only speak if you are introduced. There are also endless receptions. Gerald Ford used to go to them all, I never understood how he did it. I am speaking of a time long before he became Vice President. Usually showed up alone and stayed about an hour. I saw him several times, but met him only once in a receiving line. My Senator (from Maryland at that time) called me over at a political do once and introduced me to Nixon. I actually talked with him, in a cocktail group of 4, for several moments. Went to tea at the White House with Mamie Eisenhower. That is par for the course; if you belong to a women's group of a political party, you get invited down in turn when your party is in power. No big deal. The first lady breezes in and chats to the group as a whole and then goes around shaking hands and speaking a few words to individuals, and then disappears. Went to a tea at a friend's home and Pat Nixon came. She was sweet and shy, did not speak to the group, but spoke with every person there. That was a political event as well.

Ella ~ I'd forgotten about the time LBJ held up his beagle by the ears. And I thank him too for Medicare. Did you know President George Bush used to take his dog into the shower with him to give him his bath.
Most politicians are eager(ha) to be recognized but not so with celebrities (I'm sure you know that.) Sometimes you know they're there but leave them alone unless they make eye contact or take your parking space. I have considered putting together some stuff on the computer about my brother and his life as an artist and working with the horses all his life....maybe some day but it would only be for me and my children.

My mom worked in a bank in Wash D.C. where Judge John Sirica had an account and always came to her. She introduced me to the Judge in the grocery store shortly after his book had come out in print and we congratulated him. We saw him several times and he always said hello and asked how you were. Nice man, good looking too...I think mom had a crush on him. He also lived close to our house in Chevy Chase MD area. I know he wrote a book and I was doing an Internet search to see if I could find the name of it and discovered Judge Sirica died in 1992. I didn't realize he had died...six years after he retired from the bench. Found another interesting website WashPost: Watergate (at least I thought it was interesting). Edit: Ah...I found the book. Sirica chronicled his Watergate experiences in a 1979 book, "To Set the Record Straight: The Break-In, the Tapes, the Conspirators, the Pardon."

MaryPage ~ Do you realize our Senator Barbara Mikulski has her picture on the SeniorNet front page(rotating slide show)....yes...there she is. I wonder how many people realize who she is. The other senator from Maryland will be at our chapter luncheon next month.....of course he's up for re-election this year (ha).....you know how that goes.

MARYPAGE AND EMMABARB- you two should collaborate on a book and entitle it "Out and About in Washington: 19__ to 2000." It would be a hit! Make it chatty - somewhat like Helene Hanff's "84 CHARING CROSS ROAD" - where she and her friend discover new places in NYC. Taking tea with Mamie Eisenhower, chatting with President Nixon, meeting shy Pat, Mom's crush on Judge Sirica - do it! (Incidentally, I thought Sirica was handsome also - and I see he stayed on the bench until the age of 82!)

What times we have lived through! Tumultuous - wars, White House scandals, riots, we've seen it all!

Thank you both for your comments on the Washington scene and if you happen to run into Ben Bradlee, tell him we are all disappointed at his non-appearance on Seniornet! Personally, I think he would love the experience of having his book explored by his peers (age-wise, anyway).

And now to get into the book and the POST! The next few chapters are the best in the book I think and I might get boring here - if so, let me know.

Bradlee negotiated and got a good deal from Kay Graham for the Washington Post job, and although in this chapter he states he did not know her well, they became very good friends through the years as noted later and in her book as well. Bradlee was to take Al Friendly's job as Managing Editor in the near future and in the following paragraph he describes the job as well as the man:

Al Friendly was a man of intellect, with an arch sense of humor, a wide circle of friends, and a ranging curiosity. He appeared to me from day one as miscast in the role of managing editor, the job on a daily newspaper where all the thousand details of administration and production have to be coordinated before the paper can be in position to write the great stories. In fact, he had ceded those details to Ben Gilbert, the city editor, and in so doing had lost-or never found-the power to make great things happen.

In this position Bradlee, it seems to me, is giving up what he seemed to love most - the job of reporting; however, the M.E. job certainly is one of importance and responsibility and it presented many challenges. It takes a hard hearted man to do what he did - hire and fire in order to get the paper up to its potential and here he mentions all the hires were "totally white and totally male. This was in 1965 and the nation was just beginning to revolt against discrimination in all forms.

"I was not sensitive to racism or sexism, to understate the matter. The newsroom was racist. Overtly racist, in a few isolated cases; passively racist in many plaes where reporters and editors were insensitive and unsensitized. This racism would slowly and painfully subside, if not vanish, over the next ten years."

I find Bradlee's frankness about the problem refreshing; he's not hiding any facts. Further, he says:

"To be blunt about it, I didn't know anything about blacks, or the black experience, and I was about to become involved in the leadership of the number-one newspaper in a city that was 70 percent black, and a readership that was 25 percent black. I had had no black friends growing up. ……".

Can you believe a newspaper or a newspaper owner could sustain a loss of 1 million dollars a year for 20 years? I've forgotten what Kay Graham says in her book about this loss or how she explains it, but it is astonishing! Also is this description of the paper in 1965 when Bradlee took over as Managing Editor:

"There was not yet a steady diet of good stories. The paper still was hard to read. Production quality was a disgrace, with typos galore, with color so bad that the people in pictures regularly had four eyes and two sets of teeth. The design was just plain ugly, dominated by an Advertising Department more interested in the advertising revenue than the newspaper itself. Ink smudges, "see-throughs" (where ads were printed in such dark ink they could be read on the reverse page), were on every other page. "

Even taking into account Phil Graham's mental and physical condition, and the fact that the budget for the paper was 4 million as compared to 20 million for the New York Times, I cannot understand why a paper should be so lousy!

Back with more comments later. Perhaps I'm boring you with these details, but I find the newspaper business fascinating. Wish I knew more about it, e.g., who judges newspapers? Who decides which are the best in the country?

Ella ~ I liked those charing cross road books. Too much for me to remember to put it all down on paper....so I'll leave the book writing to someone else.

Not likely I would run into Ben Bradlee and I too am disappointed he hasn't made an appearance on SeniorNet. Nearly all the restaurants he mentioned in book though I have been to. I lived just a few blocks from Duke Ziebert's. Last time I was there it was so dark you couldn't see your hands in front of your face let alone see anyone else in the room. And the Willard Hotel was my aunt and mother's favorite hangout....maybe they met Bradlee there sometime...it was sort of a single's place back then. As I recall my aunt made a scene because she came dressed in slacks. Back then you had to wear a skirt to be admitted in a place where they served food or alcohol.

At first though, it would appear that Bradlee’s assessment of Al Friendly as miscast in the role of managing editor of a daily paper would apply equally to Bradlee also. As Ella points out his real love was reporting the news. Seemingly “the thousand details of administration and production” requiring coordination by the Managing Editor (ME), would not be of interest to him.

But I suspect that Bradly also cherished the power that went with the ME job. Most important of all it is obvious that he could and did delegate work and responsibility to others. I seem to remember a reference by him in which he specifically mentioned relying on others to handle the administrative and production drudgery. Finally he seems to have an unusually high ability to recognize ability in others and to get them to come to work for him. These are qualities that made his tenure as ME successful.

Another point is that Bradlee seems to have had Kay Graham firmly on his side from the very beginning. Though he had to justify every line in his new budget to the Budget staff, approval seems to have been certain. Apparently the 20-year period of annual losses of a million dollars was abating making new staff budget increases possible. Perhaps some of you who have read the Kay Graham book will say more about the Graham Family. Was Phil Graham the owner of the Post and Kay his wife? Was the husband ill or dead at the time Bradlee became ME?

Incidentally, the loss of the Post of a million dollars a year for 20 years pales into insignificance by losses in recent years of some of the dot/com companies. Maybe not for 20 consecutive years, but some have managed 20 million plus in a single year and yet continued for a multi year string of loss.

Only have a few minutes in between storms, bringing much needed rain.

HAROLD - It was Katharine Graham's parents who owned the Post and Phil Graham took over the management when he married Kay as I remember. Everybody loved the man and I think were happy with the job he did until the illness started and in those days, no one knew about manic-depressive disorder, or how to control it. Very sad.

EMMABARB - I made a mistake - it was Helene Hanff's book APPLE OF MY EYE I was referring to. I've read most of her books and they will make you laugh out loud - try a couple! She is just charming in those slim little books, but I believe the 84 Charing Cross Road book was made into a movie. Don't give up so easily, who knows????

Ella ~ I'll look for Helene Hanff's books....can always use a good laugh. I'll not be writing any books...I think it's against the law to totally bore people to death (hahaha).

I was unable to read any tonight because of a stupid headache

Kay Graham depended on her husband Phil to run the paper and following his suicide came into her own as the person responsible for the Post media.

One of her problems as she reports it was the inability to fire people, something she did finally master.

This was particularly true of personal friends and Al Friendly and his wife were friends. He was eased out and Bradlee took over and got the Post back into the black gradually.

He understood what was needed in a very practical way and the importance in that time period of having the right comics and other features, especially the sports features- Phil Graham had this sense also and he started the process of bringing the Post into a profitable state.

But he had many flaws that were exacerbated by his illness.

Kay learned the business quickly and also became an expert in all aspects of the newspaper business.

She and Bradlee made a good team. She was the one responsible for getting Bradlee as ME of the Post following Phil's death following the advice of one of rthe board members she trusted.

Thanks, JIM for that information about Kay Graham. I remember thinking what a remarkable lady she became after her husband's death, particularly overcoming her natural shyness. She practiced her first short speech to the staff at the Washington Post over and over again, when she decided to take the reins of the paper - she was very frightened of the role and the responsibility! None of us knows what we are capable of until we are forced into a decision.

If any of you haven't read her book, I urge you to do so!

To finish up Chapter 12 before we begin Bradlee's exciting story into the publishing of the Pentagon Papers, I just wanted to point out a few statements he made about Vietnam:

The news was dominated by Vietnam, in a way that is hard to imagine today. Vietnam, and the many, many descendants of Vietnam, owned page one, it seemed, for years.

That's an understatement and it isn't hard for me to imagine that at all! Is it hard for any of you?

By instinct and habit, I was more interested in the whatness of the war than in the rightness or wrongness.....I hated what the Vietnam War was doing to America, wasting our national energy and inflating our economy, dividing us between young and old, between rich and poor, black and white, generally alienating us all. But I had bought into the myth that America had a mission to come to the help of the weak, against the oppressors. I had tried too long to equate Vietnam with what I had seen as the justice of World War II...

Amen, Brother Bradlee! In my neighborhood, it pitted husbands and wives against each other, children against parents, and perhaps worst of it, we were at war with ourselves, not knowing which direction to take. A horrible time for the country. I look at the situation today when the two countries are at peace with each other and wonder why more effort couldn't have been made back then and all those young boys who died could have been with their families and productive citizens.

Perhaps Bradlee's blindness to the fact (as I see it) that America's vital interests were not at stake in Vietnam resulted in some degree from his friendship with Kennedy.

Don't have Kennedy's inaugural speech before me, but I recall that it was widely hailed as a great one. "Let every nation know," (as I recall) "whether it wishes us well or ill, that we will bear any burden, support any friend, oppose any foe..." (blah, blah) "to assure the survival and success of liberty." Great rhetoric, lousy policy. And what did South Vietnam's regime really have to do with liberty?

But, as I mentioned many posts ago, I blame folks like Joe McCarthy and Nixon for (with some success) labeling Democrats as "soft on communism", forcing Kennedy and others to try to prove the contrary.

Possibly, RAMBLER, but who can prove such a thing? The Cold War was fully upon us and all held the same fear of Communism.

For the full text of Kennedy's speech:

Kennedy's Inaugural address

It seems so long ago that the Nation was inspired by the young President. I heard a panel on Larry King's program discuss Gore/Bush and one said what is either of them offering young people in order to motivate them to vote? He thought, at least, a speech about idealism would appeal to the young. President Kennedy had that in abundance, don't you agree?

Heard on the news tonight ........ those 18-1/2 minutes of the erased Nixon tapes may soon be recovered by some new techniques? What do you suppose it will reveal?

Ella ~ Thank you for that website, I've bookmarked it so I can explore it at my leisure.

Ella: JFK and "idealism in abundance"? I don't think we're on the same page.

Eleanor Roosevelt, referring to his "Profiles in Courage", said something to the effect that JFK would do well to show more courage, less profile.

Hi, RAMBLER! - I enjoy our little debates.

"idealism" - the pursuit of one's ideals or goals, endeavors. You don't think Kennedy's speech was idealistic?

What would you tell young people today? They are a bit tired of hearing about social security, medicare, prescription drugs, and the like.

And I always liked Eleanor - for shame, she was a democrat also!

What would tell young people today-

Nothing-

I would just listen to them and see what they are talking about and what their political concerns are.

I don't think any major poilitical parties are listening and they aren't because young people don't vote.

The candidates listen to us old folks and go on and on about SS and prescription drugs- Why?

Because we vote.

I volunteer at the local dem party headqurters and am amazed at the number of local young people who have taken an interest in working there. It helps that one of them is a local assembly candidate. (He doesn't stand a chance but I pretend he does and work away for him)

I don't tell them anything even though they are obviously in need of good sound political advice- but they need to learn by doing- not by listening to me.

But it sure is refreshing to see them getting involved.

The "idealists" they listen to are two area senators- Feingold form Wisconsin and the "idealist" from Minnesota.

The theory of Democrats being soft on communism dates back to the end of the FDR administration. By that time FDR was very ill. The decisions made at Yalta set the stage for Russian strength and aggression as WW II came to an end. Truman had already moved aggressively to block Soviet expansion including the defense of Korea. With the advantage of hindsight, we can conclude today that the Vietnam decision was not a good one, but it was made by two Democrat administrations and continued by a Republican one. Both parties can and do make their excuses, but the fact remains both were involved in the execution and acceleration of the policy.

Jim: regarding your work with young people. Do they ever ask questions? My contact is in a non-political setting at the ITC, the National Historic Park, and until recently at the San Antonio Museum of Art. Questions are frequent.

My grandson told me he was going to vote in the election. He's in Junior High this year and his school is going to have a mock election. He was very excited about it.

We have young dems and young republican clubs here and most of these young people are very much involved in the elections and political process.

Ella: Thank you for the JFK Inaugural speech. Running a search engine is only one of the many things I will probably never learn to do with my iMac.

Emma: I think the 18-1/2 minutes of taped conversations between Nixon and Haldeman, if recovered, will reveal a lot of paranoia, foul language, and disregard of the Constitution.

I think chapter 13 is easily the most gripping so far. Back in an hour or two with words of doubtful wisdom.

"The lawyers were marshaling strong arguments against publishing" the Pentagon papers. Lawyers, of course, have a duty to try to protect their client. But often it is also in their own interest to advise caution. Who's going to criticize or fire them for that? If the client follows the advice and exercises caution, there's no problem. If the client overrules the lawyers and gets in trouble, well, "we told you so". In the end, the advice of Edward Bennett Williams, given for free, proved the most valuable.

Gutsy call by Kay Graham! What else is there to say?

On p. 322, this is a stretch: "For the first time in the history of the American republic, newspapers had been restrained by the government from publishing a story...". The Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 was used to suppress criticism of the government. In 1917 the Postmaster General banned virtually the entire antiwar and Socialist press. I'm sure there are many more examples. (See "In Defense of American Liberties" by Samuel Walker. There is also a good book co-authored by Carolyn Kennedy--yes, that one--dealing with civil liberties and violations of them.)

Enough of this weighty stuff. I'm heading for Wrigley field.

As RAMBLER said Chapter 13, the Pentagon Papers, was fun to read! Bradlee's house in bedlam with lawyers in one room, a bevy of reporters in another and didn't you admire Kay Graham's courage in her decision to publish the papers?

The sentence on page 322 you quoted also caught my eye but I didn't know. Thanks for the education on that subject and who would have guessed that our RAMBLER is quoting Caroline Kennedy!

EMMABARB - If you hear anything more about the 18-l/2 minutes do let us know and JIM - great advice to LISTEN always. Young people need the experience of making mistakes, from which we all learned. I've always wanted to volunteer in politics - so, why didn't I, why don't I? Where does time go? No answers.

EMMABARB AND MARYPAGE - Were you living in Washington at the time of the riots in 1971 when 12,000 Federal troops were called in because of anti-Vietnam demonstrations, thousands arrested and helicopters criss-crossing the skies above the city?

And before that, in 1968, the riots after the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. when the city erupted and the city was under a curfew for ten days?

If so, I'm sure you not only heard it on the local news, but read about in the Washington Post as Bradlee describes it all in the book!

This was the time also when the hippies and the flower children congregated and we read about communal living. I have a story to tell about those days - but later. Nothing exciting like Wrigley Field for me, but going to buy pansies and planting them is a fun chore. I love 'em. May stop at the bookstore which is nearby - and so tempting always!

I was living right here, Ella, during all of that. However, like everyone else, I did not go into D.C. and did not experience the events first hand.

The worst, in my opinion, were the riots over King. The thing that was so terribly sad was that it resulted in large areas of the city being as ruined as though they had been hit by an enemy bomb, and these areas were the homes and shops of the very people who rioted! I just never could figure that out.

MaryPage:

Not to sound too psychological but when people launch out and don't have anyone to hurt, they often hurt themselves in one way or another. Emotionally hurting people often cut, burn, and self mutilate in one form or another.They have to relieve themselves even though it is apparently self destructive.

Robby

Excellent point, Robby. Goodness knows, I can look back over my own life and relate to that observation, although not in such glaringly dramatic ways. We definitely make a lot of ultimately injurious decisions based on the strong emotion of the moment.

Didn't realize my coolness toward the Kennedys went so far as to misspell their names! Couldn't find Caroline Kennedy's book because I misspelled her first name. Anyway, it's "In Our Defense: the Bill of Rights in Action". The co-author is Ellen Alderman and the Dewey number is (variously--why do they vary?) 342.73085 or 342.085 or 342.302. Alderman gets top billing in catalogs because her name starts with A.

Rained like hell up until Cubs' gametime, so we drove home. Now they're playing! But it's no fun sitting out in chill wind. Forty bucks down the tube (bought tickets in Feb.).

I will let you know if I hear anything more on the attempt to try to learn what was on those 18-1/2 minutes of Nixon tapes.

Ella ~ I was living in the Maryland suburbs during the 1971 riots in Wash D.C. I'm only 20 miles from The White House though and we do feel the effects of anything going on down there. I honestly don't remember it being quite like Bradlee told in his book. He hasn't mentioned (yet) the riots and burning of whole blocks in the SE section of D.C. I remember driving through those areas at the time and was in disbelief. You should see it now....all built back up with pretty buildings and landscaping...you'd never know there were any riots and burning there (I have a mental block on the exact year this happened...maybe it was when Martin Luther King was killed?). I hated the way those people just added to the destruction by breaking out store windows and stealing what they could carry away and no arrests were made.

Emma, the burnings in S.E. were strictly the Martin Luther King riots in 1968.

MaryPage - Thanks. I'd forgotten.

April 8, 1968 - Martin Luther King Assassinated! "fires pockmarked the northeast quadrant of the city………for the next ten days Washington lived under a curfew, and more than 12,000 federal troops enforced it…..Fire and looting spread from the 7th street corridor-ten blocks from the White House-across the city. Tear gas penetrated skin, and clothes. A dozen people were dead, close to four thousand arrested. …..this was an honest-to-God race riot, born of anger and frustration, dedicated to a demand for attention." - Ben Bradlee

It was in 1971 that the anti-Vietnam demonstrations took place in Washington and was described in the Post thusly:

"…..at dawn's light…..about 45,000 people were dancing, nodding their heads to music, making love, drinking wine and smoking pot."

More than 12,000 demonstrators were arrested- a record 7,000 on a single day!

4,000 arrested in 1968, 12,000 arrested in 1971. Where does Washington put all these people?

Has anything like that happened since '71?

Bradlee states the race riot was "born of anger and frustration," but also a demand for attention.

Well the Washington Post just named Boisfeuillet Jones, Jr. as the new publisher, the first time in more than 30 years that someone outside of the Graham family has held that position.

Hi EmmaBarb! We're posting together - Thanks for that clickable. He's a tall fellow isn't he and such a name - B........... (wouldn't try that one) Jones, or Bo Jones.

The year was 1969 and in our house it was the year of the Exchange Student. Our daughter had gone to Bogota, Columbia that summer and lived for three months with a very wealthy General's family, and then it was our turn to host a student from Chile and she very much wanted to see the "hippies," she had read about in the U.S. Therefore, we drove all around our Ohio State campus and others, but she couldn't find her image of a hippie. Every weekend we would take her on trips, even on a 5-day trip to Washington, D.C. to show her the grandeur of our capital city. And where did she finally see a "hippie?" One weekend my husband decided she should see the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio (which bored us all to tears!), but while passing through the small city of Yellow Springs, Ohio where the liberal small college of Antioch is situated, she saw a group of hippies! She was elated! She yelled out the window to them - "Hi Hippies, Hi Hippies" in that Chilean accent she had (embarrassed us all) and to this day we cannot say why those kids looked any different than the ones on campuses everywhere! But we were tickled that she finally found the "hippies."

She was a wonderful young girl and I could tell you many stories about this experience, but one thing I'll always remember as I've never heard anyone ask this question before and wonder if you have. Quietly one evening she asked, "Why do you call yourself an American? You are a North American and I am a South American?"

Marvelous story. Good grief, Antioch had hippies back before they were named that! I recall having a classmate in 1947 who was dying to go there because they were so bohemian.

Always liked hippies because--oh, hell, I tried to post this before and nothing seems to go through. I liked them, for one thing, because they loved life and they loved love and they hated the Vietnam war. Unusual position, perhaps, for a veteran. Will this go through? Will this go through?

MaryPage: Thank you so much! I posted earlier and nothing appeared.

Ella: What an interesting story of your daughter and the exchnage student..

The summer of '68 our son, Joe spent three months in Bucaramonga, Columbia with a wealthy family. Then the following winter we hosted Daniel Prieto from Santiago, Chile. He was Pres. Allende's grandson. And we too did lots of weekend trips, but were never able to top anything that they had in Chile... except when we bought a large color TV for Christmas.

Did you know that there is an online dictionary at Dictionary.com? I looked up the word "hippie" and here's what I got:

"A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles."

MARYPAGE - when do you think the hippies were around? There were plenty in 1969, with their lifestyle, dress, attitudes. I thought they were fun - a new generation doing their thing, definitely against the war! Didn't like the drug scene, though; however do you agree that it was the anti-war demonstrators that convinced the country who convinced the "powers" to get us out of there? I do.

When actually did the first troops come home? Who remembers?

Hi Pat! You, too, huh? Yes, our little gal was very patriotic and homesick for the first couple of weeks. But she brightened and at the end of 3 months she didn't want to go home! We had all these rules to follow and did, for the most part, but she insisted on wine for dinner (it was against the rules), but she had been brought up on it. We kept trying different kinds to find out if they were as good as Chilean wine, but never topped that! The neighbors looked askance at our wine bottles in the trash, so I stowed them in the basement for awhile! Hahaha Hated to see her leave, missed the wine, as we all drank with her. Meant to take up the habit again - it's good for you, so they say, but we just don't.

We still have lots of adult hippies that camp out in Lafayette Park across from The White House. Some of them walk around and around The White House during the day.

We bent the rules a bit too... Daniel was not to drive, but he wanted to drive a tractor, so we let him drive to town with the feed wagon... Since everyone had their own chores on the farm this was one of his on Saturday mornings before we took off for Chicago or the Mississippi River.

We still have lots of adult hippies that camp out in Lafayette Park across from The White House. Some of them walk around and around The White House during the day.

We still have hippies of a sort today. Today we refer to them as “the homeless.” The difference between today’s “homeless” and the 60’s “hippie” is that the hippie was most often young of draft age, often with a year or more of college, and socially functional (unless drugs, etc rendered him/her otherwise). They were the particular product of the Viet war. Today’s “the homeless” are generally older and socially dysfunctional. They are often the long-term victim of drugs and alcohol abuse. I noticed the Lafayette Park bunch that Emma mentioned when I was in Washington last year.

Harold: I believe that many of the homeless are those who, in previous years, would be in mental hospitals -- not just because of drugs but because they have a legitimate mental illness. The doors of the mental hospitals closed, the communities didn't (as was planned) set up community outpatient centers to accommodate them and where did they end up? On the streets, of course.

Robby

I sometimes marched with the hippie-peaceniks, wearing a military-style cap that read, "Vets for Peace in Viet Nam". I resented the oft-stated slur that anybody who opposed that infernal war was either a commie, a draft-dodging coward, or disloyal to the country. I felt America had no vital interest in that war, and I still feel that way. Domino theory? The dominoes are falling the other way!

Right you are, Rambler! My husband, who was in Korea, at first (during the Vietnam War) described himself as a Dawk. That is, he could not decide whether he was hawk or dove. I thought I was a hawk because, Army Brat that I was, I could not Imagine not supporting my country in time of conflict.

Then we spent a long weekend in San Francisco and got caught up in one of those huge demonstrations while on our way out to visit North Beach. We literally had to stop and wait for it all to go by. I was impressed at the FAMILY atmosphere of the crowd. It seemed All-American, and not anti-American at all. I started really thinking about the situation then, weighing the pros and cons for myself. I wound up a Dove. I realized how STUPID it really was for us to feel we had to Save The Whole World from Communism. How far fetched it was to believe it was that much of a threat to us. I was already certain communism was a system of economics and social structuring that could not possibly work. So what was there to get so bent out of shape over?

I never, EVER was anything but FOR our fighting (and dying. I have a dear name on The Wall.) services. The people filling those uniforms were saluted by me in my heart. But, bottom line, we had no business ever getting into that war. This is not isolationism, it is common sense.

10-4. US17349757. Corporal, infantry, U.S. Army, 1953-55.

Strange silence at this site, perhaps because of the length and complexity of Chapter 14, Watergate. Anyway, Barbara and I have to run an errand before I can comment further, but first I'd like to hear people's opinions on two questions.

#1: What on earth was the motive for the break-in at the Democratic headquarters? Nixon had a commanding lead in all the polls. Was this paranoia gone rampant? Was it borderline psychosis? Derring-do just for the hell of it?

#2: Why, when Nixon and others knew they were about to break the law and discuss doing so, did they keep the tape machines rolling?

1. Borderline psychosis

2. hubris. big time.

Good questions, Rambler! Storms yesterday kept me off the Internet and today it's very slow - and more storms coming!

MARYPAGE - I agree fully with both answers. On the other hand, did he have a reason to be paranoid? We just discussed the riots and anti-war demonstrators in the city and he felt he was surrounded by enemies, felt the country was in a turmoil (which it was), and perhaps those around him fed his paranoia? I don't know - maybe Robby can answer the causes of paranoia? Fear?

Other men with cooler heads could have handled it, no doubt. Nixon had been too long in politics, in my opinion, had lived through too many crises. Too many defeats; however his election in 1968 was the biggest landslide ever, if I'm remembering correctly. Am I?

So why the paranoia?

As to the tapes, (this is not discussed in the Bradlee book) but my opinion only. Presidents had been doing that for a number of years - didn't JFK tape conversations? I think so. Perhaps it was standard procedure for the presidents by that time? Perhaps he just forgot the thing was going? And here again, the burning question, why didn't he destroy them? No one will ever be able to answer that one?

Bradlee is still excited about the whole business of Watergate some 30+ years later as he writes at the beginning of Chapter 14 when the news of the breakin started gaining steam.

Just the recollection of that discovery makes my heart beat faster, more than two decades later.

And when did you begin to realize this was going to be a big deal?

Gosh, as you read this chapter, I can see all those fellows in my mind. I remember what each looked like! Do you?

We'll get into it all, but wanted to mention that I shopped at a bookstore the other day and couldn't believe it! Under NEW RELEASES-NONFiction, I must have seen 5-6 new books about Nixon. One was about the 5 presidents since Nixon and how the resignation (all of it) has affected their administrations. Another was just about Kennedy and Nixon, one of just Nixon - and it goes on and on.

It is still relevant today and affecting us.

Another interesting thing I saw on TV yesterday on C-Span (and I just tuned in to the last 30 minutes of it. A professor was lecturing to a political science class at Georgetown U., Washington, and he has written a book entitled The Scarlett Thread of Scandal He made a list of the most immoral presidents we have had, and where does Nixon fit in? No. 4.

lst - Clinton (largest number of scandals and variety of scandals) - but he also said he was the most brilliant politician of all time!

2nd - Harding,

3rd - Johnson

4th - Nixon

5th - JFK

6th - Buchanan

7th - F.D.R.

Interesting! But at the same time he said that 4 of those presidents were the most influential and the best presidents we have had since before WWII.

Hope to get on again soon! We've got a whole of Watergate business coming up!

Ella has brought up the matter of the morality, or lack thereof, of the Presidents. I happen to have a yellowed newspaper clipping that addresses that matter, at least concerning Nixon. It's from the August 8, 1994, New York Times Op-Ed page, author unknown to me, but here goes.

"Toward the end, Mr. Nixon brought in a Jesuit priest who, from the White House steps, pronounced the President to be 'the greatest moral leader of the last third of this century'. For those who would not take the priest's word for it, he asked merely that they show charity. One reaction at the time (my own):

"Charity has nothing to do with keeping us from giving to the transcripts the kind of attention that Mr. Nixon asked us to give to them--from dwelling on the contradictions, remarking the selfishness of their concern, expressing a not uncosmopolitan dismay at the quality of the discourse. The only thing that charity absolutely requires is that no further analysis be made of the remarks of Father McLaughlin. (This is the John McLaughlin who now presides over "The McLaughlin Group" on television.)"

I had NO idea that John McLaughlin was a priest!!

Robby

Hi RAMBLER! - the storms here are holding off so I have time to post another. Nixon actually got a Jesuit Priest to say that? The man must have been off in a monastery. Can't believe that!

So that we get our definitions correct, this from Dictionary.com on the word "charity:"

"Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.

Indulgence or forbearance in judging others.

Liberality in judging of men and their actions; a disposition which inclines men to put the best construction on the words and actions of others."

Very witty of McLaughlin - that last sentence.

What script shall we follow here? Our personal recollections of the whole mess or the book?

I think perhaps the book to keep it in order?

Oh, what the heck! Who was your favorite villain?

Robby, read it again. McLaughlin is being quoted by Rambler in that last paragraph.

And while you are here, why do you think Nixon was paranoid, if you think he was?

If I understood correctly, Rambler said that the priest McLaughlin is the same person who presides over the TV program "McLaughlin Group." If this is true, it takes me by surprise.

Robby

The second and third paragraphs of my #382 are all quotes from the op-ed piece cited. I did not tear out the whole article from Aug. 8, 1994, just the cited portion, so I don't know who wrote it.

Robby, as long as you're here: Do you recall the press-freedom case of John Peter Zenger, circa 1800? Somewhere in one of my posts far above, I called Bradlee's claim (that the government's attempted censorship of The Post was "a first") a long stretch.

Ella: Favorite villain? The one we liked the most or the one we hated the most? In or out of the Bradlee book? In or out of the Presidency? There's such a smorgasbord to choose from, especially if we go beyond the Presidency!

Rambler:

I forget the details. I believe it was long before 1800, in fact before the Declaration of Independence. He printed something or other, was arrested for libel, was defended by Alexander Hamilton, and was acquited on the grounds that if it was true, it was not libel.

Robby

RAMBLER - the most colorful? The one you remember the most? I don't know! In looking up Martha Mitchell, who was one of the few ladies involved, I came across this site with a bit of new stuff in it to chew on:

Capital Hill News

Martha was quite a character - I didn't know whether to laugh at or cry with her?

Robby, I've been around D.C. so long the old files upstairs are stuck with rust. This I seem to remember: McLaughlin WAS a priest. That much I am certain of. Rabid far right wing always. Quit the priesthood to get married. I THINK I remember his first wife was a newspaper woman or tv newswoman. Anyway, I think they started their talking heads group together. Then he got divorced. Then he got married again. I BELIEVE all of this is true, but as I have stated, the old files are tres rusty and I do tend to file facts in the wrong files.

I edited my #387. Don't know how that may affect the discussion, if at all.

Martha Mitchell told an awful lot of stuff that was absolutely true. She also had, as I recall, more than a bit of the helpless Southern Belle mentality, without enough of the steel that pose usually camouflages. Finally, she liked her little tipple well past the adjective little serving as an apt description. Unfortunately, she seemed to be hallucinating at the end of her 15 minutes plus of fame, and my early sympathy morphed into a desire that she just go away.

In looking for John McLaughlin (see what MaryPage has stirred up - a fascinating bit of news), so far all I can find is this:

The McLaughlin Group

Off to look for the priest buried in John's body!

Rambler - doesn't affect it at all! Anytime the Edit button is there, you have that privilege!

That "Capital Hill Blue" - or whatever it is - is something else! Had you ever heard of it? Have to go back and read some more - just read the quotes! Robby, an interesting article there by Buckley on gun control and the constitution.

Think I'll bookmark that one!

SEX! (Do I have your attention now?)

It strikes me as odd that Bradlee (middle of p. 355 and elsewhere) will tell of casual sexual encounters but rarely mention what he was paid for his journalism work. Sometime early-on he said his weekly paycheck was on the wrong side of $100. Surely by Watergate days he was making $2,000 or more per week.

Why is sex discussed so openly and money kept so secret? Perhaps his answer would be, "Money is more important and more personal"?

My patients almost always speak more openly about sex than money.

Robby

Robby: What, if anything, do you conclude from that? Do you think it's peculiar to American society?

Sorry, fellas, to interrupt this conversation, but we need to get back to the Washington Post and the beginnings of the Watergate scandal. It was October 10, 1972 when this story was published:

"FBI agents have established that the Watergate bugging incident stemmed from a massive campaign of political spying and sabotage conducted on behalf of President Nixon's re-election and directed by officials of the White House and the Committee for the Re-election of the President..........During the Watergate investigation federal agents established that hundreds of thousands of dollars in Nixon campaign contributions had been set aside to pay for an extensive undercover campaign aimed at discrediting individual Democratic presidential candidates and disrupting their campaigns."

Bradlee goes to say: "The denials exploded all around us all day like incoming artillery shells. After Sloan came Ron Ziegler, Clark MacGregor and good old Bob Dole, always ready to pile on.....if it looked like a denial, smelled like a denial, and read like a denial, it WAS a denial, as far as the readers were concerned."

Believe what you read?

Did Bob Dole ever admit he was wrong? He later gave a speech in Baltimore with an astounding 57 critical references to the Post stating among other slurs "The Post's reputation for objectivity and credibility have sunk so low they have almost disappeared from the Big Board altogether."

This was a low point in the Washington Post's exposure of Nixon and his dirty tricks, and Bradlee had to pull a rabbit out of the hat which with Woodward, Bernstein and Deep Throat he was about to do. But there were many problems ahead for all parties to this anguished tale.

Was the country aware of the break-in at this point and its consequences? I can't remember when I became interested in the story, can any of you? At what point did we begin to realize the enormity of what was happening? Did we know a grand jury was convened?

Ella and Rambler: I'm afraid I'm a bit belated coming in here now, but I wanted to read some of the posts about the Watergate break-in and what it later involved, and I'm really impressed with what I've read so far.

That particular time in history is as vivid in my memory as was the assassination of JFK, but I didn't really grasp the significance of the Watergate thing until days after it happened. When it became clear how involved Nixon was in the whole thing, and when it all came out about how the Republican Party was siphoning money out to pay to discredit rivals one by one, the national disgust and disillusionment began to set in. As far as I'm concerned, this was a distinctly odorous era of our time.

Lorrie

HAPPY 80th BIRTHDAY, ROBBY!

MaryPage: You do get around. Thank you!!

Robby

From some of the biograhies of Nixon I get the impression that while a brilliant man and a president of some stature in terms of his presidency, he was a very insecure man as an individual, especially as a politician and that could be the source of his paranoia about the upcoming election. In spite of the poll position he had , he felt beseiged on all sides- the war protestors he felt were after him, on the right the China Lobby was angry with him and he was far too moderate to have pleased the right wing extremists. He didn't invent the art of dirty politics but he had mastered it and just pushed the envelop this time.

As for the tapes I think he sincerely believed that they would not be used during his presidency but would be invaluable to give future historians an inside look at what he felt was one of the best presidencies. I imagine he felt historians would overlook the salty language and the politicking and focus on larger issues. He always worried about his place in history (right up to his last days) and the tapes were there to insure that history got it right.

Unfortunately for him , history hasn't focused on anything but Watergate yet- and rightly so because it certainly represented a major threat to our system of government when an exectutive could use the office to gain and solidify power.

Fortunately for the country the whole affair also illustrated the fragility of presidental power as he was not able to control the FBI and CIA as much as he wanted.

I think in retrospect one of the most interesting persons in the affair was Rosemary Woods- she is my favorite villain in the affair. Nixon never understood or appreciated her as much as he should have.

Hello LORRIE - very well put. We all agree it was a " distinctly odorous era" and do come back with your memories as we progress into the Watergate Senate Hearing.

Why, JIM was Nixon " a very insecure man as an individual, especially as a Politician" do you think? He had been in politics for many years! Did his ego demand that he get to the top and sacrifice his honor and integrity to stay there? Can you summarize when and what he did in the national arena? He was involved in the Alger Hiss - Whittaker Chambers hearings wasn't he? How far back do we go with Nixon? I have never read a biography of the man. His Checkers speech was when? And why did he give that? We need to refresh our memory - or, I do, as to the history of Nixon. If I have the time today I'll look for a short bio of him on the Web.

But back to Bradlee's book:

After Nixon won the election by one of the greatest margins in American History, Chuck Colson gave a speech including this:

"Ben Bradlee now sees himself as the self-appointed leader of what Boston's Teddy White once described as ' that tiny little fringe of arrogant elitists who infect the healthy mainstream of American journalism with their own peculiar view of the world'………An independent investigation was conducted in the White House which corroborated the findings of the FBI that no one in the White House was in any way involved in the Watergate affair.

As I'm sure all of you know Charles Colson served his time in prison and went on to a Christian ministry in prisons:

Charles Colson

This I didn't know. One of Nixon's revenge tactics on the Post, and he had many, were to challenge the TV license renewals for 3 Post-owned television stations. Bradlee, in a footnote, says that it cost about $3 million in attorney fees to fight these challenges. The power of the presidency is mighty.

The assessment of the man who was Richard Nixon expressed in the first paragraph of Jim Olson’s message #403 is quite in line with my personal judgment of his place in history. As this conclusion points out, his tragic flaw was his insecurity arising from both political and I suspect personal reasons. This led to the creation within his campaign organization of the “quasi intelligence gathering” group that staged the Watergate break-in. Grievously did he sin; grievously did he pay. Yet aside from this fundamental moral mistake, his presidency cannot be termed unsuccessful.

On the issue of the Viet war it can be argued that the acceleration particularly the extension to Cambodia was a mistake. Perhaps with the advantage of hindsight and in the light of the corrupt anti-democratic conditions in South Vietnam, it was. But he had inherited the problem from the previous administration. As I remember his 1968 position, he was ready from the beginning to negotiate a settlement but on terms short of the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam. It was January 1973 before a treaty was signed that ended the U.S. combat role. South Vietnam continued the war with American non-combat support for another 2 years until May 1975 when Saigon fell as the American Ambassador and the Embassy staff was evacuated by helicopter.

Viet War Overview http://students.vassar.edu/~vietnam/overview.html

I think history must continue to focus on the Watergate event and his resulting resignation as president, but will otherwise rate his administration rather high.

Question could Nixon have escaped the impeachment that forced his resignation, if when the event first became public he had admitted and apologized for the event? As to the making of the tapes, I think he just did not realize they were on. I don’t really see how their content would have enhanced his position with future historians. I suspect Bill Clinton made sure the machine was off whenever Monica entered the oval office.

Ella the “Checkers Speech” came in October 1952 after news of a certain fund raised by California supporters became public and threatened his continuation as the VP candidate. The fund as I remember was only about $20,000. It was termed a “Slush Fund” in the press, as its purpose was to help Nixon maintain his personal and family expense while living in D.C. I remember hearing and watching most of the speech in the window of an appliance store near the downtown campus of Trinity University while on my way to attend an evening class. It was indeed an emotional and a very effective speech. I remember in particular the implications of "respectability in the "good Republican cloth coat" as worn by Pat Nixon (in contract to the mink coat received as gifts by the wives of certain high members of the Truman Cabinet. Its remembrance is what prompted my question above wondering if a similar approach would have saved him again after Watergate.

Another example of a Nixon emotional response was his reaction to his defeat in the 1962 (I think it was '62) California governor's race. Remember he blamed the press, and concluded, “You won’t have old Richard Nixon to kick around anymore.” This reaction certainly shows the paranoia that later led to his final downfall.

Happy Birthday Robby!

That's one of the first things President Clinton did when he moved into The White House....he changed the entire telephone system. I guess I should say....he had the entire telephone system changed.

A friend of mine, who normally votes Democratic, "bought" the Republican argument that the Watergate break-in was "a third-rate burglary". I didn't. Not because I was impressed with the Washington Post, which didn't have much of a reputation at the time. I just felt that Nixon and his cronies were kind of weird and capable of anything. I was fearful that if and when Watergate came to a head, it would be too late to help George McGovern, which of course it was.

In the book NIXON IN WINTER Monica Crowley, author, foreign-policy advisor and political confidante of the former president during the final four years of his life, had the opportunity at times to discuss with Nixon the Watergate affair. And, of course, as he did while president, he blames the press for the public's obsession with Watergate and, at times, his own failures.

"I knew I was a target. I had been a target ever since Alger Hiss, because during that case I did the worst thing that you can do to the press: prove that they were wrong. They were wrong to stand up for Hiss, this smooth establishment guy who also happened to be a Communist spy. I proved the case against him, and there he went off to jail. But he was one of their own, and they never forgave me."

When Monica asked if he made a mistake by taping his conversations, he replied "Yes and no. No, since almost every president since FDR taped at least some, and Kennedy and Johnson were the worst, but yes, since they didn't turn out to be what I wanted them to be........My own record of my presidency."

When asked if he ever forgot that the tapes were running, he said:

"Well, you know, I'd go in there and start talking with Halderman or Ehrlichman or Kissinger or whomever and we'd be talking about something and the tapes were the furthest thing from my mind.........this may seem like a minor thing compared to some of the other things on the tapes, but the criticism about my coarse language bothers me, and it bothers Mrs. Nixon. If you could have spent five minutes with Johnson or Kennedy, your ears would've curled. All presidents swear and everyone acted like I was the first one......the pressures of that time were unbearable. I don't know how Mrs. Nixon took it. It was so hard on the familly."

More from the book later. As I have never read any Nixon biographies, while at the Library this morning I spotted this one and thought it might add something to our conversation. Wait until I tell you what he says about THE WHY of the break-in. Tune in later.

Nixon insecure... most certainly... But I think he was also power-hungry... and not anxious to let any of that power of the presidency slip away, by loosing the election

Much like a deputy sheriff... give 'em a badge and they can tell anyone and everyone what, where, and how to do it.

Interesting that his (taped) foul language seems to have bothered Nixon more than his obstruction of justice. Strange priorities!

Where are we, approximately, in the Bradlee book?

All of you have stated that he was insecure, and I don't know why? Why? He had obtained everything that a politician could hope for: he was a senator, a vice-president and a president; won accolades for his foreign policies toward China, detente with the Soviet Union and the end of the war in Vietnam.

Why the insecurity?

RAMBLER - We HAVE gotten off track on progress in the book. One reason I feel is that Bradlee is rehashing everything we know already. Is there something new here in this chapter? One thing I didn't know was the letter John McCord wrote to Judge John Sirica in March of '73 in which he states:

Certain question have been posed to me from your honor .......There are further considerations which are not to be taken lightly. Several members of my family have expressed fear for my life if I disclose knowledge of the facts in this matter, either publicly or to any government representative. Whereas I do not share their concerns to the same degree, nevertheless, I do believe that retaliatory measures will be taken against me, my family and my friends should I disclose such facts. Such retaliation could destroy careers, income and reputations of persons....

And, of course, that is exactly what eventually happened. We could list all the careers that were destroyed, but we know don't we? I remember them all from the facts of the break-in to the Senate Watergate Hearings which I listened to as often as I could. I will never forget the day Butterfield revealed the tapes - it was electrifying to the committee members and to me!

I haven't mentioned my favorite villain - JIM mentioned Rosemary Woods, the secretary. Certainly she played an important role in it all - do you think she erased those 18+ minutes herself or was ordered to? My villain is G. Gordon Liddy, simply for the reason I find him fascinating. His role was no more, nor less, than others in the whole sordid mess; however, I read his book WILL and he is a real "kook" as Bradley calls him. Wierdo! And now he has, and has had, his own successful radio talk show - can you believe this man?

Have any of you read it? Do so - you'll come away thinking you have never met anyone like him!

Thank you, EmmaBarb: I just got back after a very long day.

Robby

I thought it was interesting those 18+ minutes on the Nixon tapes were erased "six" times. Someone wanted to make sure it was gone for good...maybe everyone in the office had a turn at it. Mr. Bradlee's book brought to surface a lot of things I'd forgotten about. I finished the book this evening. It's left a lot of questions in my mind I'd like to personally ask Mr. Bradlee....I'll not say more.

On p. 365, Bradlee says he learned the identify of "Deep Throat" but has never told anybody, not even Kay Graham. Anybody know the reason for this secrecy? Was there some kind of written-in-blood promise to "Deep Throat" to keep his name secret?

Yes, there was. There was a gentlemen's agreement with Deep Throat that the name would not be told until after Deep Throat is dead. So we can wake each day and say: "Deep Throat lives!"

Being facetious there. Sorry about that.

But I have always admired, and continue to admire, those who have kept the secret. A promise is a promise is a promise. And Deep Throat did our country a great service.

(p. 378-9): Goldwater, whose political views I abhor, strikes me as one of the most decent pols ever to come down the pike. He is devoid of pretense and artifice. He seems to be one guy who will say in public what he says in private. It has sometimes occurred to me that if I could sit down and have a drink and chat with any pol in our time, he would be the one. Nixon, Kennedy, LBJ and a host of others would tell you what they want you to hear. Goldwater tells you what he thinks.

That very trait made me admire Goldwater as well. He was real. No artifice whatsoever.

MaryPage: I'm not questioning your word, but where was Deep Throat promised that his identity would be kept secret?

On 383, Nixon says, "You'll never make it in politics; you don't know how to lie". Reminds me of the quip that "Sincerity is Everything in Politics. If you can fake that, you've got it made."

On p. 408, Bradlee refers to the "I got my job through The Washington Post" photo (featuring Pres. Ford) that I mentioned in August.

I guess a secrecy promise to Deep Throat is implied, or we can infer it, from this on p. 331: "Deep" surely from "deep background," the terms on which he gave Woodward all information... .

Rambler: I believe that the contact with Deep Throat...either Woodward or Bernstein...told Bradlee who it was...and also made the promise/pledge/agreement not to release the name while Deep Throat was still alive. That may have been in the book they wrote about Watergate. As I recall the situation, whichever was the one contact made that agreement. As best I understand it, Bradlee is learning the name second-hand. He had no contacts, to my knowledge, with "Deep Throat," though he may have had contacts with whomever is Deep Throat...if you can follow that convoluted sentence. ;0)

š ...jane›

Barry Goldwater has earned his present status as a politician worthy of the title “Elder Statesman.” His principal thrust for political power came too early while the old Eastern Republican leadership still wielded substantial power. His winning of the Republican nomination in 1964 was the first victory for a new western conservative Republican leadership. His defeat and the Landslide victory of Lindon Johnson was largely made possible by the Eastern group that abandoned the party rather than support the nominee of the rival faction. In August 1974 Goldwaters’s frank discussion of the Watergate situation at a meeting with Nixon at the heights of the crisis, preceded the President’s resignation.

Alexander Haig and Patrick Gray are contenders for the personage of "Deep Throat." Have you heard any others mentioned?

Nixon stated he thought it was someone close to his administration who wanted to "win with the media, someone who was proving his liberal credentials by talking secretly to the PosT, soneone who wanted a journalism career or media career. And it wasn't Diane Sawyer" - from the book NIXON IN WINTER.

For some reason, I never considered it might be a woman?

It has often occurred to me. Especially with the bit about the flower pot in the window.

Rambler, et al, my information is in my head and comes from having bought and read every single Water Gate book that came out in the seventies. But it would have been Woodward & Bernstein's first book that told the details of the vow.

Aside from Rose Mary Woods, were there any women in position to know the truth? Nixon's inner circle was/were all men, as I recall.

Ah yes! But in the West Wing everyone has Administrative Assistants and wives. There are also sweethearts. The East Wing is mostly women. Nothing escapes any of these!

MaryPage - I don't know anything about the flower pot in the window, or perhaps I've forgotten. Can you tell us again?

EmmaBarb or MaryPage - can either of you look in the phone book and see if Rosemary Woods is listed? I wonder if she is still living. Has anyone ever contacted her about Watergate - has she appeared in any books that anyone has read? She has to know a lot and now that Nixon has died, perhaps she would talk to someone?

Ella: Flower pot. Page 365.

OOPS! Missed that one, didn't I? Thanks, Rambler!

Several books about Nixon are mentioned in the Crowley book, namely, ONE OF US by Tom Wicker, SILENT COUP and Stephen Ambrose's biography which Crowley considered rather favorable.

Anyone read any of those? Once Nixon asked this author - "Why do you think people hate me?" She answered:

"you are a target of a hostility fueled by long-standing partisan differences dating back to the Hiss case, policy differences that could be traced to anti-communism, unforgivingness for your extraconstitutional activity during the Watergate crisis, frustration over your defiant refusal to give in to defeat, and anger over the threat you represented as a conservative continually able to command the headlines."

Did we HATE him? That's a strong word to use, but anger over what he did to the country, yes.

How do you feel about him?

We have only one phone line. I was about five paragraphs into a post of incredible wit and trenchancy when my wife raised the receiver to make a call. Maybe tomorrow.

I was also about to inform everybody that Bernstein was married to Nora Ephron. Glad I didn't. It appears on p. 420.

I was waiting for someone to mention that Mr Bradlee said he learned the identify of Deep Throat. He didn't even say how he learned of this. I'm wondering too why so much secrecy about whom it is or was? I saw this man interviewed on tv several months ago (wish I could remember his name)...he claimed to be Deep Throat. There is also a book out on Deep Throat but it didn't interest me enough to read it. If anyone else reads it let me know if it's revealing or not.

Ella ~ Bradlee's book mentions the flower pot in the window as a signal. There are lots of Rosemary Woods/Rose Mary Woods in the telephone directory.

interview...with author of the book "In Search of Deep Throat".

The mere fact that someone would come forward claiming to be Deep Throat would prove he was not.

I saw Bob Woodward asked about that not too awfully long ago on television, and he said the secret is still being kept. And he got an agreement that he could tell his editor (Bradlee) and his partner in the reporting, Bernstein.

Someone asked what we thought of Nixon. I thought he was wonderful, and did not believe the Water Gate thing, although it made me feel uneasy. I even voted for him again in 1972. Then, in October 1973 we had the Saturday Night Massacre. That did it for me. I KNEW that night that he was guilty, and I hated him passionately because he had betrayed my personal trust in him.

I will always deplore the fact that I believed in him so deeply. I also feel he will go down as a great, though deeply flawed President.

I would say Rose Mary Woods is dead. (June 17, 1997 marked the 25th anniversary of the Watergate break-in.) Nixon's longtime personal secretary, 79, remained on Nixon's staff until 1976. She retired and lived in Alliance, Ohio. Woods had always denied that she caused the full 18 ½-minute gap in a crucial Watergate tape but acknowledged in court that she inadvertently wiped out four or five minutes of the tape.

Apparently only four people know who Deep Throat really is.

The History Channel in a rare departure from fighting WWII and Vietnam and other military history ad naseum aired the historic Kennedy/Nixion debate often credited with giving Kennedy the election in 1960 because of the poor photogenic appearance Nixon made.

I think any objective historian looking back now would have to say that just based on the text Nixon "won" that debate as Kennedy was wrong on his assessment of most foreign policy issues involved-

Nixon was the president we love to hate- just as Clinton is now in right wing circles.

I remember the Roosevelt of the 1932-40 era as one of the most hated presidents along with Eleanor- and even Falla.

Some presidents just seem to generate strong emotions in their opposition.

History sometimes corrects (or forgets) this as it has in Roosevelt's case.

Maybe Nixon's turn will come. I don't think I will ever get to this point, though. he was not a "conservative" in the current sense. His domestic politices were quite moderate. The impression that he was very conservative is probably due to his having Pat Buchanan on his staff and Buchanan's current status. Nixon did not agree with Buchanan on domestic issues at all.

Kennedy never had this problem even though he had a fairly light weight presidency.

He was the one we loved to love.

Thank you all so much for your responses! It's been a wonderful discussion, I'm impressed and delighted at the quality of your knowledge and your manner of expression.

EMMABARB - I know where Alliance, Ohio is and I'm wondering if Rose Mary Woods was ever married or if she had relatives living, or perhaps went back to the city where she was born! She is mentioned so briefly in the history of the Nixon saga, but being a secretary long ago I know they are attuned to the atmosphere of an office, its personnel, and the day-to-day incidents that occur and have always thought she would be a good source for an author to pursue. Thanks for as much information as you were able to obtain.

On pg. 365 Bradlee describes the circumstances of his learning the identity of DEEP THROAT.

I rarely turn on the History Channel, JIM, as it is full of war of one era or the other, the guns booming from field or ship, young men struggling up a hill. It is too depressing and I wonder what would pass for history if we had no wars ever! What would they show? And the same goes for the history books - a few things were taught about cultures in between the fighting of a war, whether it be World History or American History; we learned more about the causes and effects of wars than anything else.

Nixon, as you say, the president we love to hate and Kennedy - the president we love to love. Personality, charisma, handsome - are these the qualities that elect a president? Not so, we say?

As far as I can tell, and I haven't as I said read any Nixon biographies, history revisited is not kinder to the former president, the first ever to resign. Will he ever be forgiven?

MARYPAGE states that she "thought he was wonderful, and did not believe the Water Gate thing, although it made me feel uneasy. Actually would the break-in have assumed such importance had the press not dug in and kept digging. Do you believe Nixon had anything to do with the planning/ordering of it or just the coverup? To quote the Crowley book and what Nixon says in this regard:

"Despite what people think, I still don't know everything about the case. Never did. ……I tell you, when I first heard about the break-in, I thought, 'My, God, Who would do such a stupid, idiotic thing?.........Not only did I have very limited information about the break-in after it occurred, I had limited information the entire time and I was working from all kinds of misleading information from everybody else. Dean would come in and tell me one thing, Haldeman another, Ehrlichman another, and Haig something else.

But, of course, that really doesn't matter - in the end, Nixon "got" Nixon, as I remember Bradlee putting it in the book.

RAMBLER - That number was your dog tag in the service? Do you know it by heart or did you have to look it up? And "trenchancy?" Have mercy on me! I'm not even going to look that one up! Hahahah

As we begin the beginning of the end of our discussion of Ben Bradlee's book, there is but one interesting subject that I would like to discuss and that is the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. What did you think about it at the time?

And if there is something I am glossing over in the last few chapters of the book that you would like to discuss, please post it!

Mary W. emailed me that she has been ill and unable to contribute much lately, actually she has been in bed for several days, but we can hope for one last great post! GET WELL SOON, MARY!

I was interested in the Pelton (Ronald W., Jr.) Case....Bradlee said it is still not over. I can't seem to find anything on this. Nothing has turned up in my search.

Also Operation Ivy Bells....I found this some of you may be interested in.

I have not read the last 40 pages of the book, and am not sure I will. It's due back at the library tomorrow and don't think I care to renew. P. 316 is perhaps the best in the book, but I also liked 420, where Nora Ephron poured red wine over Carl Bernstein.

In regard to the Croatian plane-highjack incident (p. 422), I thought Bradlee handled the matter with considerable wisdom, not wanting to needlessly endanger lives for the sake of editorial principles.

"...The best of the American press is an extraordinary daily example of industry, honesty, conscience, and courage, driven by a desire to inform and interest readers." (p. 430). I think that's very true. (Join me in owning Tribune Company stock...please???).

A small nitpick (p. 432): "It is impossible to underestimate the importance of reader bias in any serious study of press criticism". I think he means overestimate.

Ella: Don't have my dogtags (so far as I know), but I do remember my Army serial number. It's on my discharge, but I don't need that to remember. As for Gulf on Tonkin, don't really remember my reaction. We probably had the greatest Navy and Air Force in the world. The Army and Marines were certainly the best equipped, but vastly outnumbered by Asian ground forces. At the time, I guess I wanted to believe that North Vietnamese PT boats attacked us, as LBJ said. But before long, it struck me as most unlikely. They're winning on land, why would they want to go to sea? Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska were the two senators who voted against the declaration

Rambler: Interesting comment about the Army serial number. I'll bet every single one of us dogfaces remembers our serial number!!

Robby

Nope, I think he meant underestimate.

At the bottom of p. 430, Bradlee says, "On the wall in front of my computer...". So he's not entirely computer-illiterate. Maybe he just doesn't want to talk to SeniorNet?

The Rambler ~ I thought that too when I read about Bradlee's computer in his book. He is still (I believe) First Vice-Editor "at Large" or something like that, and goes to the Post now and then to hang out (at least he said so in the last chapter). You'd think he'd be able to use one of the computers there to talk to us here. I just bet he has a computer at one of his four or more houses also. But then again, maybe he doesn't. Oh well, it's his loss (ha).

Mr. Bradlee...I'd be happy to help you find your way in here if you need help. But of course if you're reading this then you don't need any help.

Am sending all of you an email this evening regarding the status of Mr. Bradlee and our discussion.

Keep in mind that for a great many people (including some I know very well), the computer is a word-processor only and a vast improvement over the old typwriter - I don't need to tell any of you why. Mr. Bradlee, I am sure, has had very little trouble adjusting to the computer and word processing; however, the Internet/Seniornet is another ballgame entirely. He might even be able to handle search engines but registering at a site and posting messages, (although it is automatic for us that have been doing it a few years) can be frustrating. I can attest to that!

RAMBLER - it might be wise to renew your book or get another copy.

Before we go into the last few chapters of the book, perhaps we should pause to consider the changes in the press, in politicians and the public since Watergate. Bradlee, beginning with pg. 405 mentions a few of them, e.g., the influx of young and eager journalists.

Has the rise of the tabloids been influential in our lives, particularly where they are conspicuously placed at the check-out counter in grocery stores? Were there that many scandal sheets before Watergate?

Do you think politicians are more honest or just more careful of being caught?

Is the public less sensitive to moral affairs of politicians and presidents, and, of course, I have Clinton in mind.

Bradlee, speaking for his own self, states that after Watergate he has put distance between himself and newsmakers. Perhaps, he regrets the friendship with President Kennedy after learning years later that he knew actually very little about the man. Are other journalists that you know of close friends with politicians? Should they be?

The tabloids at the check-out counters have no effect on me whatsoever. Sometimes I joke with the checker saying how depressed I am that Ms. X is divorcing Mr. Y when I have no idea who either one is.

But there were always scandal sheets. They probably existed in Egypt on papyrus.

Robby

It is helpful to be friends with newspaper reporters when you are a politician.....it helps win elections. Sometimes a newspaper will endorse a candidate in their paper if most of the news over the years has been passing good legislation. It usually runs as an editorial. Works the other way around too....if a reporter needs some info for a story he/she is writing it's good to have a close contact with the politicians.

There used to be a pink colored newspaper from San Francisco CA I think (we used to subscribe to it at the office just to keep up with it)....I'm talking 1960-ish. It was all gossip. Maybe someone will remember the name of it. Mostly lies....just like those grocery store tabloids. Amazing what you can do with computers these days....putting people together in photographs. Can't say that about Gary Hart though. He asked to be followed and get caught.

Tabloids don't affect me. Of course I see them at the checkout counters and observe the weird lead lines. Can't remember ever buying one. I have the impression from media reports that they are more influential in the UK and perhaps continental Europe, than in the US. Does anyone have information on this point?

Tabloids have been around at least since the late 1950's. I remember one that a helper sometimes purchased. I think it was called the “National Inquirer.”

Rambler and Robby regarding military serial numbers, my 1944-1946 Navy serial number is as readily available on the tip of my tongue today as my current telephone number. Is there any one out there who has forgotten his/hers?

Several posts concerned the Watergate character, “Deep Throat.” When the Watergate crisis was in progress, I was deeply involved in a work project that left me no time to follow it in any detail and I am still perplexed about the reason for Deep Throat’s secrecy. Aside from an individual privacy concern, there would seem no real reason. In the course of the several Congressional investigations and other legal proceedings was there ever an effort to obtain his identity for his/her personal testimony? Presumably Woodward and Bernstein would have pleaded the poorly defined reporter’s right not to disclose sources if asked in court or other investigative proceedings, but apparently they were never asked. Perhaps there was no necessity after the tapes became public. These tapes were the “smoking gun” that brought the matter to its conclusion. As Bradlee said, “Nixon, not the Post, got Nixon, but the Post’s reporting forced the story onto the national agenda, and kept it there until the world understood how grievously the Constitution was being undermined.”

I suspect the first of the purple prose reporting regarding presidents started with circulated reports of Jefferson's now DNA documented affair (or romance) with Sally Hennings, one of his slaves.

But in the past there was always a clear divsion between the tabloids and the main line press- I think the Lewinsky affair coverage changed all that as the main line press raced to keep up with the tabloids and the internet publications like the Drudge report.

Newsweek's publication of selected portions of the Tripp tapes may have started this movement.

Both the Bradlee and the Graham book cover the Post's own internal problem with the publication of the faked stories about the young heroin addict. This started a move by the legitimate press toward more careful checking of stories and "second sourcing"- but I wonder if that hasn't also fallen into disrepair as deadlines and competitive pressures force material of doubtful quality into print.

TomPaine, the internet newsletter did a story not long ago about the persistence of the "spat upon" returning VietNam veterans, tracing many of the printed stories about ill treatment of veteran's and sensational instances of such things as spitting etc and debunked many of the stoires- for example, one reported instance was at an army air base here in the US where no returning soldiers from Nam were ever returned.

Most of the protestors welcomed back vets and teated them well and many vets joined the ranks of the protestors. Not according to the press.

Yes, I remember my army serial number- but probably mostly because I used it as a computer password early on in the days of the mainframes on campus.

My telephone number? Hmm- let me think for a moment.

George Ade, the Hoosier saritrist of the 1920's, wrote about a person he knew who was kicked in the head by a horse in his youth and now believed everything he read in the Sunday paper.

But then Ade had his own axe to grind and his reference was to the young set of crusading muckrackers like Lincoln Steffens.

Jim, I am so gratified to hear you about the returning vets.

Truthfully, I have never personally seen, nor have I heard a word about, any such outrageous attitudes displayed towards ANY returning vets I have known; and I have known my share.

I never could figure out exactly where it was going on, as reported by the media.

When I was young, one of our local papers, now extinct, printed their "gossip" on yellow paper. Not the whole paper, just that insert. Thus the original term "yellow pages" did not mean the advertising section of the telephone directory, but the portion of the paper no decent person would be caught reading!

Isn't there a term "yellow journalism" for reports whose authenticity is questionable?

š ...jane›

Jane: There most certainly is. Most of what is seen at check-out counters is "yellow journalism." They would not accept themselves as such but reputable journalists call them that.

Robby

This just for fun.....click...scroll near the bottom to see lists of tabloids, gossip/rumors columns etc. Amazing what you find on the Internet. I think that newspapers I was trying to think of was The National Inquirer (all I really remember was it was pink paper and pages and pages of personal ads)...I had to scan the news section for articles pertaining to viruses and vaccines while working at the National Institutes of Health.

I'd like to hear what professionals in the personnel field (now called human resources or some such) would say about the Janet Cooke affair. I also wonder if white job-applicants were also hired without checking the veracity of resumes?

Of course, we have benefit of 20-20 hindsight. But if Bradlee and others were so afraid Cooke would be snatched up by the N.Y. Times or others, why didn't they hire her and then spend some time checking her background? A phony resume would surely be grounds for firing.

Agreed, Rambler!

I am also hoping to see some STRONG national legislation about printing lies on the internet web pages. Really, it is outrageous the ABSOLUTE untruths that are being told about every known name, living or dead, and almost every historical event.

It is okay to have different Perceptions of what happened or of a public figures' motivations. But to tell glaring lies is So Wrong; especially to fill falsely the minds of the young and/or gullible who believe that because they have Read it, it must be true.

For instance, it should be against the law and subject to prosecution to Print that it is a FACT that the earth is flat, the Holocaust never took place and is a big lie, Franklin Roosevelt wanted WWII so much he LET the Japanese come in and bomb our fleet out of the water, Knowing in advance they were coming, etc. People should, of course, be allowed to state at the beginning and end and throughout such articles or books that IN THEIR OPINION these items are factual; but anything that has been PROVED to be true should never be allowed to be presented as a lie, and no lies should be allowed, knowingly, to be presented as truth.

MaryPage: Sorry. The lst Amendment to the Constitution reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Certain exceptions exist. You can't (falsely) shout "fire" in a crowded theater, and you can be sued for libel and slander.

Don't know if the courts will treat the internet as speech or press, but either way, the 1st Amendment should prevail. "Every view, no matter how ignorant or harmful we may regard it, has a legal and moral right to be heard." That's the ACLU's Roger Baldwin in 1921 . It is, and should remain, the law of the land. Best wishes.

Rambler, please note again what I wrote. No one agrees more with the freedom of the press than I. I am saying we should not be permitted to publish LIES without stating at beginning and end that what is written is strictly our opinion.

You are saying every VIEW has a right to be heard. I agree. No matter how false, how evil, how reprehensible, every View does have a right to be heard. But when it is a LIE being told about an actual event or person in history, there should have to be SOME KIND of disclaimer so as not to misinform people.

Maybe not. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe such oversight would be impossible. But I do so hate it that so many people are being sucked in by absolute falsehoods.

Many maligned persons are not around to sue or defend themselves. Many books are written setting the stories straight, most often more than a few books about a given person or event. But the people who buy into this type of poison are also brainwashed into repudiating the books out of hand, unread, as propaganda.

Well, I can't fix the world, that's for certain!

Oh, what a lively discussion we have going and I can't wait to join the fun! Have been gone all day and now have to get dinner, but will return later. Jim - I think I have your email address right now - it came back twice before I got it right.

MaryPage....ever notice how some people read only the headlines? And never the entire story, or the fine print? Not long ago, there was a big, dreadful headline about denial of certain events. The article took up half a newspage. Only in one sentence, in the very last paragraph, was a denial, without any explaination given. The article explained the truth of it, very carefully. But few people read 'the whole story'...and its infuriating to see headlines make declaration like that.

"Seek the sensational, untainted by truth"....you can quote me.

Sun

I sure agree with you, Sun. I, too, have seen headlines of articles which were the direct opposite of the article. I wonder if the editors(?) who write the titles bother to read the whole article?!

š ...jane›

I, too, have seen what Sun is pointing out. On the whole, and hating to be an old hag finding fault with the younger generation, I do not see the conscientious and careful journalism I used to enjoy. They are not only not careful, they are downright careless. And where are our heroes of yesterday? Our William Allen Whites, et al?

We have two issues on the "Boards" at the moment to discuss and try to come to a cogent conclusion: (a) tabloids, what they can and cannot publish, and (b) government regulation of the WWW.

Let's take the tabloid issue first. Here is the National Enquirer:

Read the latest scandals!

I've read two stories. The one concerning Kathie Lee has this source for their story "an insider told the News." The story regarding Meg Ryan states this: "declared a source close to Meg."

If you were Kathie Lee or Meg Ryan and was outraged by these stories, what recourse do you have? Just the courts right? And by the time you engage an attorney and fight the paper, there is more publicity than ever. Do they have no other recourse? I don't think so. So are we saying privacy is gone forever once you become a newsmaker?

RAMBLER AND MARYPAGE - Gosh, I agree with both of you! Freedom of the Internet (whether it be freedom of the press or speech) has been wonderful! But, on the other hand, a disclaimer that it is the opinion of the author only would solve problems. What to do? Shall we let the government in?

Wouldn't it be fun to hear what Bradlee thinks of the Internet if he ever gets online? And I have an idea he could answer our tabloid questions. Incidentally, can a person sue a paper over a picture of them taken and printed without their permission? Lots of questions here.

WELCOME SUNKNOW to our discussion of Ben Bradlee's book and all other matters pertaining to the press! I, too, have seen those articles!

Such an interesting discussion! Sorry I haven't been here. Working too hard. Right now I'm on the road (in Illinois) and don't have my copy of Bradlee's book; it's at home.

Carol Burnett successfully sued the National Enquirer for libel in 1981 and got a $1 million-plus judgment. It was later reduced on appeal and finally settled out of court, but she did beat them. The issue was a totally untrue story about her being drunk in public.

I don't believe for a minute that Rose Mary Woods erased any tapes. I did secretarial work for a good many years, through college and in the early years of my marriage, and more than once I heard a boss blame "my secretary" for some error or omission HE had made, while winking at me to show he didn't really mean it! I kept saying, don't take the rap, Rose Mary! Stand up for secretaries everywhere! But she didn't, really. She even posed for the photo showing how she could have erased the tape while reaching for the telephone.

Some may be interested in my post #1306 under Democracy in America, which follows our own discussion in the listing. If I knew how to copy it here, I would do so.

Rambler - I was amazed (in my last job) how many people used those resume programs on a computer to run off pages and pages of stuff not really anything to do with their job skills. Times have changed. Most of them I just threw in the circle file anyway. I'm surprised too they didn't check out Janet Cooke's background or references before hiring her but I think they were trying to fill a minority quota.

I could be entirely wrong, but I think someone else actually writes the headlines after the columns are submitted. When I wrote press releases I sometimes suggested headlines but more times than not they were changed.

Once the story is in print the damage is done. If a paper apologizes for any errors notice they usually bury it somewhere inside below the fold.

Ella ~ I'd love to hear what Mr Bradlee thinks about the Internet. People have their picture in the paper all the time without permission. Sometimes they sue and win. It used to be you couldn't use a photo of someone or something without giving credit to the photographer. Not the case now.

How many times to I have to post, and re-post, and re-post the same message for it to become permanent? Does anyone have the answer? I come back 5 minutes later, and the message isn't there! (Of course, if some kind of quality-control is involved, I can understand!)

Rambler...you need to just put the post in the message box and click the Post my Message button. It should then show up and you should see it on the page above. If you are having a problem with your connection through your ISP there may be delays, but the post will show up immediately normally.

Did you see your post several back about your posting in Dem in America? Sometimes others are posting at the same time, so your post may be BEFORE the one you see after you post. It's number 465 above: the rambler 9/28/00 5:55pm

š ...jane›

WELCOME KATIE J! - Do join us and I remember Carol Burnett winning that libel suit, it made a splash as it is hardly ever done. Good for her, she's a gutsy lady and how I miss her TV shows!

If the boss sometimes lies about his secretary, they do likewise about their bosses. My attorney often would tell me if -------calls, I'm busy, and I was very innovative at times - he was in a conference, out of town, at a BAR meeting! If you need to see a busy attorney, dear friends, go to his office and wait!

You may read Rambler's post in the DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA discussion by clicking here and scrolling a few lines down:

DIA discussion

Thanks for that, Rambler! Hope you have the problem straightened out - we can't have your posts disappearing!

If there is no privacy from the press, would you want to go into politics?

Oh,EmmaBarb and Rambler, do remember your comments about Janet Cooke. I'm not to that point yet in the book and, perhaps, others are not either, but we will get there!

Ella,

I did get your e-mail about Bradlee,

I'm also currently onthe road using a laptop and can't join in the discussion easily untuil I return home next week,

Gorgeous day today and while working outside I've thought about the Internet and my conclusion is that, although there are falsehoods, porn, etc., on the Web, we should not have any regulation whatsoever. Anyone who is diligent can find lies and porn in scandal sheets and adult bookstores, but this venue is too new and too great to let the government play around with.

Thanks, JIM for letting me know. RAMBLER would you like me to email directions for clickables? Back later.........

Yesterday I composed an intended post against any legislation regulating first amendment rights on the Internet. Before I made the post Rambler’s message #456 appeared. I immediately erased my draft, as there was nothing I could say that would add to the last paragraph of this post that said it so very well.

Don't know if the courts will treat the internet as speech or press, but either way, the 1st Amendment should prevail. "Every view, no matter how ignorant or harmful we may regard it, has a legal and moral right to be heard." That's the ACLU's Roger Baldwin in 1921. It is, and should remain, the law of the land.

The only thing I might add is I think I remember reading Supreme Court decisions as early as last year that did say the first amendment applied to the Internet. (I subscribe to a Cornell Law School mailing list that sends Supreme Court opinions as they are issued. It is inactive now as the court is in recess. The subscription is free and if anyone is interested E-mail me and I will send the address).

Harold: Flattery will get you everywhere!

(That MUST be a Mae West line!)

There are pros and cons to unions; having never belonged to one I know nothing about them, but over the years I've read or seen movies of the necessity for them in early history and the struggles they had to organize. Are they still powerful today?

Just finished skimming Chapter 16 in Bradlee's book relating to the American Newspaper Guild strike that was devastating to the Washington Post and occurred right in the middle of the Watergate scandal. How maddening for the managerial staff, but equally stressful for those that walked on don't you imagine?

Here's a brief summary of the Newspaper Guild found on the Internet - am interested in what they did to relieve the keyboard-related repetitive strain injuries. We know a lady who got disability because of carpal tunnel syndrome related to this type of injury. And what about those that sit in front of computers all day? This is a problem I understand with many people whose work necessitates them looking at the screen constantly. Anyone know?

Newspaper Guild

Rambler... add my kudos... Not flattery, just total agreement.

Ella: I was a member of the International Typographical Union from about 1960-70, a rather brief time 30 years ago. The ITU, or what's left of it, also merged into the Communications Workers. The ITU was unusual in that it was extremely democratic. Just about everything, especially involving dues, was put to a vote of the full membership. The Chicago local met monthly, and everyone got a chance to speak. There were even two parties, just like the U.S.A. Some of the other newspaper unions were pretty much the opposite. The pressmen had an especially thuggish reputation.

Newspapers are particularly vulnerable to slowdowns--you want your morning paper at breakfast, not supper. So it was often not necessary to strike. Just refuse to work overtime, which was your right under the union contract.

I could say more, but as mentioned, my experience was from a long time ago in a most unusual labor union.

Hi RAMBLER - Yes, a slowdown would harm a paper, everybody phoning in about the paper - where's my paper? Demanding their paper they paid for. Your union must have been different from the ones I've read about where the orders came from the top and not the membership. I vaguely remember a short white-haired fellow that was always on TV in the early days - head of the coal-miners union - do you know his name? Now certainly that union was needed. My husband knew a fellow whose father had been a coal miner and the conditions were terrible. His father died from dust in his lungs which has a name but I can't think of it.

Is the Teamsters Union still independent or part of another union - I know several of them have merged? Is there a recent movie about Jimmy Hoffa? Bradlee mentions the AFL-CIO and George Meany, I have heard of that one also but don't know who it encompasses. Remember the song - "Look for the union label" tra la la la la la la. Garment workers? Is there such a thing in America anymore; it seems most of the clothing is made overseas because of cheap labor.

Times change and TIME magazine, which I've subscribed to for years and years, is published in different parts of the country now with ads in it that might appeal to those people for whom it serves. Interesting.

Where did everybody go - are we here all by ourselves?

Ella... do you mean John L. Lewis?

Would like to tell you my exposure to unions.

In the middle 30's my father and a partner started a small factory to manufacture playgound equipment. In order to hire anyone they paid 10 cents an hour over WPA.. The plant grew .. business was good... until '38 when the local carpenters union decided to unionize the factory workers... My father barred them from entering the factory, but told them they could meet the workers in the street in front... This went on for about a week... My father raised wages to 25 cents above the union wage... His employees remained loyal... voted to not join the union.

But that angered the local union organizers and one Friday afternoon as the men were leaving with their pay for the weekend... the organizers encountered every man and demanded to know what wage they had received... Then when my father got ready to leave the office he thought they had all left... but after he got in his car, they came from behind the building, rolled his car over and set fire to it.

No charges were filed by there was a lot of adverse piblicity for the unions and the next Monday there were about 10 men at the front door wanting a job.. The unions never bothered again... The factory, operated now by a grand niece, is still non-union and pays a premium wage with benefits to match any union worker.

Hi Pat - Oh, one other person! Could be - I have his picture in my mind but can't remember his name. Was he head of the coalminers union?

That's a terrible story, Pat. Certainly the other side of the unions - why did they have to be so nasty when the men were getting wages above the union? Why?

The disease I was thinking of earlier that coalminers get is black lung disease, my husband just told me. You were doomed if that was your work.

Here's a link to John L. Lewis.. whom I saw once as a child when he visited the mines south of our town.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAlewisJL.htm

Yes, Pat, thanks for that. I remember him - had a blustering way in which he talked and I never knew what CIO stood for, hmmmmmm. Am truly getting an education here - long overdue, I may add!

Congress of Industrial Organizations. As the name implies, most of the unions were in industry, as opposed to craft unions like printers, carpenters, plumbers.

RAMBLER - Are you pro or con union? Or does it depend upon the union? When I told my husband of our conversation he said there is a nice fellow at his fishing camp at Lake Erie that is a leader in some union and he has to vote Democratic, has no choice as the union tells you how to vote. Democracy?

Ella: Your husband's fishing friend may feel obliged to talk Democratic, but we still have the secret ballot in this country. I suspect that about half of union members voted for Reagan.

Am I pro or con union? I would say generally pro. Sometimes the leaders and followers resort to hooliganism, as Pat Westerdale has attested. But, as Pat also mentioned, her father raised wages partly because a union was trying to organize his place. Sometimes the mere possibility of union organization will cause employers to improve wages or conditions.

In Washington and the state capitals, only the AFL-CIO has the lobbying clout (Chicago word--now nationwide?) to help improve wages and conditions for all workers, union or not. I doubt if there would be legislation regarding minimum wages, workmen's comp., etc., if there was no organized labor. Politicians respond to pressures.

Oh, as Pat also mentioned, publicity about violence by union organizers can be fatal to organizational efforts. When you get the public and the police against you, the game is usually over.

"A rising tide raises all boats." In my municipal owned utility company, wage gains negotiated by our AFL-CIO Electrician unions (there was never a strike) was immediately applied to white collar professional classifications. Even the management payroll would soon be adjusted upward. (The amounts in the non-unions job classifications were generally equal. sometimes less and occasionally more that the Union amount).

I was never union and was never really anti or pro union. The ugly side or the Union movement has already been mentioned. I just never felt deprived by not being in a union job.

The most important post-Watergate event covered in the book must be the Janet Cooke event. Bradlee kept the support of the Grahams and together I think they handled it quite well. The big mystery to me is how they hired her with out checking her educational credentials. On page 449 Bradlee says:

We failed to make even a cursory check of her resume which dealt with her education. I take little comfort in the fact that I have been unable to find a newspaper (or law firm), which does make that check.

I don’t believe it! In my job our personnel department never sent a candidate for a job interview without a rather voluminous application file including his/her college transcripts and a notation that they had checked references. They were, however, always anxious to hire minority women in professional jobs, and this could sometimes be use to facilitate fast track approval for new staff positions. I think Bradlee pretty much says that this factor figured in the fast hiring of Cooke.

(I just noted that Microsoft Word is critical of Bradlee’s use of words in the quoted paragraph above. It maintains “Resume which ....“ should be changed to either, “resume, which .....” or “resume that ...." Frankly, it doesn’t make any difference to me. I would probably have written it the same way he did)

Under Books and Democracy in America, I just posted part of a 1944 speech by Judge Learned Hand. There was general agreement that Hand belonged on the Supreme Court, but the political atmosphere wasn't right (or no vacancies occurred). My post is number #1366, and it seems off-topic for this discussion and maybe the DIA discussion as well!

Ella has been trying to teach me to copy-and-paste, but for now, this is the best I can do. Best wishes.

Oh, but my student RAMBLER WILL PASTE a clickable here in this discussion before it is over (you have just a few days, Ed, to get that done, so hurry!)

Where were we? This of Harold's is worth repeating - I loved it, I've never heard this before. A rising tide raises all boats! Think of all we could apply that to.

Harold posted, as well as a couple of you previously, on the Janet Cooke affair and her lies, and we could couple that with what we were talking about earlier - lies found on the Internet, which are opinions only.

Bradlee, on page 439, says this and it could be applied to most situations in regard to what people read and what editors publish:

editors abandoned their vaunted professional skepticism.

We should all be skeptical of unproven statements in the press (and teach children to be also)on the Internet, in books, in whatever they are reading. Take the Missouri attitude of "Prove it." Or was it- show me? Anway, you get the point. When did we abandon our skepticism?

I'm sure that most of us have encountered Ombudsmen in our lives in recent years. I'm not sure when they first started appearing, but it was a great idea on someone's part. Bradlee, admitting the terrible error he made in hiring and approving Janet Cooke's stories, did try to undo the mistakes by leaving the matter in the hands of the Ombudsman, and wasn't it great that the Grahams supported him through what he said was "the lowest point in my career."

And while we are talking about lies, what about one of the greatest in recent years that affected so many lives? The Battle of Tonkin Gulf? It took 20 years to hear the truth of that one. And it came from that little white-haired fellow that ran as Ross Perot's v.p. for president, I didn't know that until I read Bradlee's book. Did any of you?

Whenever we speak of newspapers, my mind always goes back to 1960 when I handled public relations in New York City for the Boy Scouts of America and dealt with 9 (repeat "nine") newspapers. Now, if I am correct, there are only three. I would be most interested in Mr. Bradlee's reaction to this lessening of the number of newspapers (which occurred in Wash, DC as well).

Robby

Back in the #450s posts, we briefly talked about the first amendment guarantees of free speech and press. It's a cliche, but perhaps some have not heard it: Popular speech doesn't need protection. By definition, few will challenge it. The speech that needs protection is unpopular speech.

If we construe the first amendment to protect popular speech only, then the amendment is meaningless. Unpopular speech needs the protection, which is why the ACLU (and others) so often find themselves defending individuals and outfits that most of us would consider scumbags.

Hi Rambler - are you practicing? LET'S ALL CHEER RAMBLER ON in his quest for the clickable! Yeah, go RAMBLER!

Yes, I appreciate that it is necessary for the ACLU to protect unpopular speech; however, it is difficult at times you must admit when people picket doctors' offices with placards that almost say "Kill the doctors who kill babies." Perhaps not in such strong language but they can be interpreted to mean that.

Or the placards people carried in the strike of the Washington Post that made statements like the wrong Graham died. Oh, how cruel!

You are so right, Ella. These comments are, indeed, cruel but our Bill of Rights grants people the right to make cruel statements.

Robby

Ella I take no credit for originating the “rising tide raises all boats” metaphor. It is rather commonly used in economic arguments usually with fewer grounds for connection than in my particular situation.

One follow up on Janet Cook, I cannot help but note a strange similarity between her position after being caught and terminated, and the position of President Nixon after Watergate. Both were utterly disgraced and effectively banned for life from their previous profession. I wonder how her post, Post career developed. I suspect it was in fields other than journalism. Her sin was the passing of fiction as news. Perhaps she could have made it big as a fiction writer. She certainly showed an aptitude for that craft.

Rambler, Robby, Ella, there does seem to be one area involving speech that the protection of the 1st amendment cannot reach. I refer to the offensive political incorrect remark that stirs a massive wave of contempt in the minds of a large majority of people. Often but not always such inflammatory speech stems from a person of little education who happens to be involved in a public activity such as professional sports. But the 1st ammendment and the Constitution is not involved here as it is Public Opinion, not the constituion imposing the band. Enforcement is by private, not governmental action. On the other hand if the government by law made such utterances a crime the enforcement of the law by the government would be banned by the amendment.

Harold: I had to study the 3rd paragraph of your #496 for awhile before I figured out you were probably talking about John Rocker, the Atlanta Braves' pitcher. I'm a little slow at times. Most times.

Ella: I think the courts have held that statements like "Kill the doctors who kill babies" is not speech that the First Amendment protects. In a Tacoma, Wash., abortion-clinic protesters case in 1987, the ACLU argued that the words murderer and killer were indeed offensive but did not incite violence. Those last two words seem to be decisive.

RAMBER Are you saying the two words "incite violence" are what determines whether speech is protected under the Bill of Rights?

Do you remember the time that the Nazi Party got permission to walk through the streets of some city (was it in Chicago?) that was predominately Jewish? Yet I believe the ACLU defended their right to do so; however, that certainly could have "incited violence" with good reason.

Every Christmas without fail, the Ku Klux Klan gets a permit to put their wooden cross on our State House lawn beside the Christmas Tree and the Menorrah (sp?) and every night it gets torn down. Of course, it is all to get attention, but it seems so pointless in America. Who with any sense is going to join the Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan?

The Nazi Party wanted permission to march through Skokie, Illinois, at that time a community composed of many Jewish survivors of the Holocaust.

Rambler: Are you saying KILL as a verb is not a word that "incites violence" according to the ACLU?

š...jane›

jane: In the first sentence of my #498, I'm saying pretty much the opposite of the last sentence of your #500. I'm saying (and I think it's the courts' and ACLU position, which often coincide) that the nouns killer and murderer are protected and the verbs kill and murder are not. You can call someone a killer but not urge others to kill. Perhaps it's a fine distinction, but I don't think so. The former is merely nasty. The latter urges/incites violence.

Ella:Re your #499, I am talking about the First Amendment only and ACLU and courts' positions relating to it. To take on all ten amendments would be a whole new discussion in itself!

As you know, I live in the Chicago area (Skokie is about 5 miles from here) and, as you maybe don't know, I've been with the ACLU since long before the Skokie incident and have never flagged in my support. (Their annual bash is Saturday night, and I had to go buy a white dress shirt when I discovered I didn't own one!) Barbara wants lunch. Back soon. Best wishes.

As I mentioned back in #493, "If we construe the first amendment to protect popular speech only, then the amendment is meaningless. Unpopular speech needs the protection, which is why the ACLU (and others) so often find themselves defending individuals and outfits that most of us would consider scumbags".

The "Nazi" leader Frank Collin planned to hold a 30-minute demonstration in front of Skokie's village hall. "He expected perhaps fifty demonstrators, some in neo-Nazi uniforms." Skokie hurriedly passed ordinances forbidding the gathering. Skokie's case was based on the argument that the neo-Nazi march would incite a breach of the peace. The ACLU had always argued that this represented a 'heckler's veto'. That is, it would allow any angry group of people to abrogate the free speech and assembly rights of unpopular organizations simply by threatening to be disruptive." The trial judge found for Skokie, but of course was reversed on appeal. "...As ACLU leaders pointed out, the Skokie ordinances could have been used to stop Martin Luther King, Jr.'s confrontational march into Cicero, Illinois, in 1968."

Much of the above is lifted from Samuel Walker's "In Defense of American Liberties". If/when I locate the definitive Supreme Court case(s), I'll let you know. I think they're in this book.

Collin, by the way, was a rather pathetic case. Shortly after it was revealed that he was part Jewish, he killed himself.

Rambler: Thanks for the clarification...I misread your statement.

š ...jane›

jane: No problem. We all misread from time to time.

My friends at the Illinois ACLU tell me that the definitive case relating to speech that may incite violence is Brandenburg vs. Ohio, 1965 (I think). "Only incitement to imminent lawless action could be punished. ...After a fifty-year struggle, the ACLU had finally persuaded the Court to accept its view of the First Amendment."

Even I have mixed feelings about that "imminent".

Thanks, RAMBLER that is so interesting! Did anybody write a book about Frank Collin or is he part of a book somewhere?

To change the subject back to Watergate for a moment, in the book PAST IMPERFECT: History According to the Movies, the film "All The President's Men" is reviewed and I quote several sentences from it:

......a film can be accurate without being true....(this film) leaves one to understand that the country has been saved, not by conscientious public servants but by the press-particularly by the movie's two heros....The foreshortened version of history ....oversimplifies and rearranges the relationship between political power and the press. By suggesting that Woodward and Bernstein directly caused Nixon's fall-and thus inflating the importance of the press-the film marginalizes the special prosecutors, the congressional committees, the courts, and even the White House, disregarding the fact that collective action (and not heroic individualism) drove Nixon from power.

Now I must go back and read Bradlee's description of the making of the movie; however, I doubt he would be as critical of the film! Haha

Further, the article states:

Director Alan J. Pakula deliberately chooses to employ a Manichean vision of the forces of Good and Evil, which he perceives as Light and Darkness. In this scheme, the heroic representatives of the media are identified with the huge newsroom where Truth makes its home bathed in eye-dazzling light. Meanwhile, the seat of government in Washington......is seen in spooky darkness.....As a result, one is given to understand that government is not to be trusted, that its officials are creatures of the night, and all-ALL the president's men-are complicit in the evildoings.

What do you think of that trick? I doubt Bradlee, if he noticed that, would approve, would he?

Okay, I finally finished the damn book. Actually, it was a damn good book, except perhaps for the first two chapters, which I only skimmed.

At this time, I will go out as I came in, kicking, screaming, nitpicking.

In "Ivy Bells" (p. 470). U.S. submarines regularly retrieved tapes of the Soviet messages and installed new tapes. But on 471, the Soviets "had long since removed" the U.S. listening devices from their cables. If this was true, how come our "regularly" visiting submarines didn't notice that the listening devices had been removed? Even if the subs somehow retrieved the tapes, how come our spooks didn't notice that the tapes were blank?

Just above the middle of p. 471, Pelton was arrested. In the first full paragraph on 472, he has defected. Then on 473 he's on trial and gets sentenced. In absentia, or what?

Thank you to Ella and Harold for a fine job. And thanks to the rest of you for keeping it interesting and fun.