Kindred Souls:Friendship of Eleanor Roosevelt and Export

Welcome to
	"Kindred Souls is a wonderful love story that opens to public view a fascinating chapter in Eleanor Roosevelt's life. Edna Gurewitsch has recreated Eleanor's last years with such remarkable empathy and such deep intuition that it seems as if Eleanor is alive once more." - Doris Kearns Goodwin
Interesting Links: Timeline of Eleanor Roosevelt's life PBS looks at Eleanor Roosevelt Photos of Eleanor's Early Marriage Campobello Island Today	DISCUSSION SCHEDULE Sept. 1 . . . Pages 1-83 Sept. 8 . . . Pages 84-151 Sept. 15 . . . Pages 152-176 Sept. 22 . . . Pages 177-296
Readers' Guide for Kindred Souls
	Discussion Leaders: ELLA and HARRIET M

Did you think, as did I, that you knew all about Eleanor Rooselvelt - you've read several books and knew of her activities as First Wife and later as an independent and well respected woman who wrote a daily column?

IF SO, YOU WERE WRONG, I WAS WRONG!

In her later years she and Dr. David Gurewitsch formed a wonderful close friendship, one of respect and love; they traveled together, David observing medical facilities and Eleanor meeting with politicians and heads of state, and all this is told by David's second wife after his death.

You will want to read this wonderful story! Join us as we discuss the book and delve into the historical events of her golden years.

President Truman termed Eleanor Roosevelt as First Lady of the World.

Wise, brave and compassionate, her status was such that, even after the death of Franklin Roosevelt, Mrs Roosevelt"s life was studded with the people and events that affected our times. Her personal physician, David Gurewitsch, formed both a professional and personal bond with his eminent patient. He accompanied her on her world travels, was privy to her frank opinions on world events and her reactions as a human being.

This is the story of their unique friendship. It reveals the woman, Eleanor Roosevelt beyond her public facade. The author, Edna Gurewitsch, had a close association with her famous houseguest and access to many of her personal letters. She tells the story of a dignified world figure with an endearing and human side.

Let's explore the private side of Eleanor Roosevelt's public image as we read this wonderful book together.

Harriet

My sister just reported to me that she had read this book, enjoyed it immensely and thought it brought Eleanor down to the level where most of us feel comfortable, an ordinary woman, with deep emotions and a few regrets.

She would recommend it; unfortunately she hates computers or I would have her here to tell you to read it!

If we get three people posting a message of interest, we will announce a date for discussing this book that is convenient to all.

I've always wanted to read more about Eleanor Roosevelt. Seems like the last biography I read took her from childhood up to the brink of WWII. I think that's right. Then, I read Doris Kearns Goodwin's book on both Franklin and Eleanor.

This book, Kindred Souls, looks wonderful! And the reviews are good! I've known absolutely nothing about this part of her life, but according to the reviews, neither has anyone else. And, my goodness, who could have guessed...and how curious it all sounds.

Did anyone see that made-for-television movie on the Roosevelts quite a few years ago? Jane Alexander played Eleanor, all the way from teenager to older woman. The movie begins as an older, tired Eleanor, dressed in black, is accompanying Franklin's body BY TRAIN back to....Washington?...then, the whole movie is a flashback. The MUSIC from that movie was so beautiful and I'm sure added to the haunted feeling I've carried about that movie and about Eleanor. I watched for the longest time for a rerun of that movie, but if it ever was repeated, I missed it. I suppose now it could be found and purchased over the internet.

Thanks for opening up the start date possibilities, Ella. Here's how neurotic I am.....after I left that message, I thought, well, every month through September already has something scheduled, so it really doesn't matter, after all. But maybe it will matter to someone else for some other reason....so I hope a few others want to do this book, too. Excellent choice of a biography, Ella.

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On a whim, I just ordered 2 of the 3 books memoir of Jill Ker Conway, the first female presidnt of Smith College. Her first book, written several years ago, Road From Coorain (shown as a special PBS movie last Sunday night) has been one of the best selling memoirs of all time. It's about her very difficult childhood in outback Australia, but is known for it's dead-on portrayal of that tough land and captures how people love it in spite of the tough life it demands.

The second book is True North, Jill's migration to the U.S. for study at (uh, uh) Harvard? Maybe Columbia? Both? Then her work at a university in Canada, accepting a job in administration, eventually. Then the offer to take the top position at Smith, back in the U.S.. Her third book is (I think) Education of Women, her 10 year stay at Smith. What appeals to me about this woman is what a tough life she has had (older husband with bi-polar disorder, unable to have children, lifelong mental problems in mother), yet...yet, look what she did with her life. I've read excerpts from Road From Coorain and what a gifted writer, also. So clear and precise.

I should have put this down in non-fiction, I guess. I'm just glad we're through for a while with biographies of weird but great women (though I loved learning about them)...I'm ready for biographies of not weird but great women.

Hi, Harriet. Glad you're here with Ella.

Betty

Thanks for the post, Betty! Never saw the movie but would love to and if you happen to run across it on TV do email me or let me know when - I wonder if there is a site on the Internet detailing movies with a search for actors or subject, etc. There should if there isn't it.

In our discussion of SEABISCUIT we have Barbara, who lives in Australia, and I have emailed her a couple of times; in one of them I asked if she knew of a book we could discuss about her country. She is going to think of one but, meantime, I'll mention Jill Ker Conway's book to her to see if she has read it. We have discussed it I believe although I'll check in the archives to make sure. It sounds very familiar to me - all three of them sound fascinating and what a lady who, in spite of all possible obstacles, made a success of her life.

I hope you can join us when and if we succeed in getting this book to the table to discuss.

I will be interested in joining this discussion, it just depends on whether I can get the book out here. Hurry up and get that computer fixed, I miss you on Seabiscuit.

Re Road from Corrain, I did suggest that, but Pat Westerdale said that it had already been the topic of a discussion.

Barbara

Hi BETTY. I'm sure glad to see you here also. Welcome BARBARA. I'm thrilled that you want to join us.

I did see that made-for-television movie about Eleanor and Franklin that you mentioned, BETTY. It was quite a while back and I remember being absorbed by it, although I wish I recalled more of the specifics. ELLA, you're absolutely right about the existence of a site on the internet for movie info. My son, the movie fan, suggested this site and BARBARA, there's even a link to UK movies at the bottom of the home page.

The Internet Movie Database

Here's a link to the 1976 TV production that BETTY was intrigued by. I found it through the IMDB.

ELEANOR AND FRANKLIN

The movie starred Jane Alexander and Edward Hermann in the title roles and It got some impressive critical reviews. You've really revived my interest in it, Betty. I wonder if it might be available in a video store because I'd love to see it again. There were also a bunch of other productions listed in IMDB about Eleanor Roosevelt, including the 1960 Sunrise At Campobello, starring Ralph Bellamy and Greer Garson, which I remember with pleasure.

I once read a rather gossipy and entertaining account about various presidential families by one of the long-time butlers at the White House. Sorry, but the name of the book and author escapes me. Anyway the author described Eleanor Roosevelt as an unpretentious woman who entertained more casually than most First Ladies. The line of the book that stuck in my head was his description of Eleanor's style at the brunches that she enjoyed hosting at the White House. "Mrs. Roosevelt", said the author, "served her guests scrambled eggs mixed with brains." I thought that was an interesting comment on a deeply thoughtful woman.

BARBARA, please, do look around for the book. We'll have such fun. I'm so glad you're here.

Harriet

Was there some reason that you directed me to the website of UK movies?

Barbara

Hi Barbara, I had some hope that Australia might share a similar sequence of movies with UK? Obviously I must be wrong, but my intentions were good.

I look forward to learning more about you, Australia and Eleanor Roosevelt . Particularly about you and Australia.

Harriet

Culturally I think we are much more akin to the U.S. than we are to the U.K. The movies we have here are made in the U.S., although we do have our own movie industry. And by the way, many of the U.S. movies are now made in Australia on the Fox Movie lot whichis in Sydney - a matter of some conflict between Hollywood and Australia at the moment. I think we are cheaper - no, not cheap just less expensive. lol Television shows are about 50% from the U.S., some from the U.K. and some locally made. Some of the locally made shows such as Home and Away, Neighbours, All Saints and a few others are shown in some parts of the U.S.

Movies from the U.S. are released here, pretty much the same time as they are launched in the U.S. On some occasions, they have a prior release.

One of the great things about Seniornet is that we are learning so much about each other. I have learned so much about different parts of the U.S. So you keep learning all of your life.

Barbara

HI BARBARA! Did you manage to get this book? I still do not have email yet so we can't chat - I did want to thank you for the suggestion of the Sara Henderson book - I loved it! Hope to present it for a discussion in the future!

It is iffy at the moment if we will be discussing this book as it has been a few weeks that it has been displayed and there are so many others on the back burner simmering!

If you have it and two other persons come in to post, then we can go ahead and do a lovely header and set a date!

If not, we may have to postpone this one until sometime in the future. Summertime is always slow in the Books - vacations, visits to others, etc. or maybe just sitting in the sun! Beautiful today, but storms are on the way! It was so much fun having you in SEABISCUIT and delightful that we became acquainted! More later when I get email!

Kindred Souls is $65 here, a bit too steep for me. I don't think it will be any cheaper getting it from Barnes and Noble by the time I take into account the exchange rate and postage.

However, I will hunt around for it. I know that when I first priced Seabiscuit it was $49 or thereabouts, but I eventually paid about 20 something. I really want to take part in this discussion, but if not will have to go with one of Robbie's even if I just lurk in the Story of Civilisation.

Looking forward to your email coming to life again.

Barbara

Barbara S, quick, click on my name for my email address to send me your mailing address and I'll send you a used Amazon.com copy of Kindred Souls. (There are 2 left. I'll get 1 for me and 1 for you.) If this is a book you'd like to read anyway, whether or not we have enough to do a group discussion, I'd like to do this. I'll keep my fingers crossed that a discussion materalizes soon. (Ella's on this wonderful streak of finding great biographies of women.....I hope we read them all.)

Betty

Betty, you are the best!

I'm e-mailing Barbara right now to ask her to check our discussion and write to you. Hope the two books are still available by the time you guys make contact.

What a generous, nice thing to do. Any discussion that has you and Barbara and Ella in it HAS to be a winner!

Harriet

I have sent you a very grateful email. I agree with Harriet your gesture is generous and kind and I appreciate it very much. I was quite disappointed when I found that the book would be such an exorbitant price(for Australia), now I have a glimmer of hope.

Barbara

Nowhere can you find such great people, kindness and generosity magnified, as our Seniornet family!

Thank you so very much Betty! That is such a thoughtful gesture and is much appreciated.

Yeah, Barbara, what fun to be in a discussion with you again - there is a lot of history in this book that all of us remember no matter where we live in the world.

P.S. - no email yet! The new server is blaming the public for overloading their new program - a great way to lose former clients. What a farce, I'm going to go cable, I think.

I have a cable connection for my computer and I like it very much, Ella.

Harriet

I have a DSL phone connection through Southwestern Bell (SBC, it's called), Ella. It's not problem free, but the problems are fixed quickly and when it works, it's great. Here in Austin, one cable company and SBC vie for the DSL business. My apartment complex offers service ONLY from SBC, so I didn't really have a choice unless I wanted to go back to a regular server.

Are we waiting for a 5th person?

Betty

Betty, we need 3 participants (excluding the DL's) and at the moment we just have Barbara and yourself; one more will come along soon I'm sure.

I have finally installed SBC YAHOO which merged with my old local Ameritech.net or bought them out - whatever. However, I'm not sure I'm going to use their email and I know I don't want MSN's hotmail either.

Will try to install Netscape tomorrow and use their email and, although I thought I had copied all my addresses on a disc, they are gone! Oh, boy! I should have printed them out, may have to connect my old tower up and print them out from there.

This whole business has given me a terrific headache!

I have posted a message on Acts of Kindness, I was so touched by your thoughtfulness.

Oh, good, the book is scheduled for September 1st. That could help us get a few more readers, as summer trips will have ended, etc. I was hoping you'd pick September!

Betty

Ella, sign me up for this discussion. Maybe we can both get our computers up and running by the time is rolls around. Can't wait to discuss this.

Wonderful, Ann!

A new computer is a hassle, there is so much to learn. And I thought I knew computers pretty well! I was comfortable with my last one, knew its innards, but this one is stacked with all kinds of new stuff - I'll probably never use any of them. But it is fun to look at them.

Yes, do solve your computer problems in time for this discussion, it's a good book.

My book arrived from Amazon, thank you thank you Betty. It looks delicious and I can't wait to get my nose between the pages. Am emailing you Betty.

Barbara

Is this discussion going to take off?

Barbara

Barbarba S, I sure hope so as I do enjoy all the posts in every book but do not post much anywhere but Kindred Souls sounds so good to me as I remember the Roosevelt's and would like to hear more about Eleanor.

We have so many Wonderfull books and DL here I just cannot keep up with all the reading but love all the posts and do read as many as I can and enjoy the rest thru posts so hang in here as I feel this book will Fly. Smile, Your S/N Friend, Ginger

Hi Barbara, Ella and I definitely plan on opening this discussion on 9/1/02. Is that what you're asking? We're looking forward to it and sure hope that you are too.

How are you coming along? Hope your arm is better. I've been posting in BONESETTER along with you and reading your comments there.

The days seem to rush by so quickly to me this summer. Isn't it remarkable that September will be here in the flash of an eye? Soon we'll all have our opportunity to express our thoughts about Eleanor Roosevelt and David Gurewitsch.

Harriet

BARBARA! Oh, you are still with us, I'm so happy to learn that - I haven't peeked in the BONESETTERS DAUGHTER, been busy and one of the things I have on my schedule (with Harriet, Yippee for Harriet!) is to get our schedule of discussion up soon for this book.

I did want to tell you that your recommended book FROM STRENGTH TO STRENGTH by Sara Henderson is on the list to be discussed when we have a slot open. I hope it will be soon because the book was wonderful - I recommended it to two other people and they both loved it.

Am looking forward to starting our discussion, we have a good group of people and I'm happy that Eleanor has not been forgotten. What keeps her memory alive? The books about her just grow and grow and every new First Lady mention her somewhere, somehow, and try to emulate her don't you think?

Was she the first president's wife to take up causes? The only one in recent times to have no cause, that I remember, was Barbara Bush who said, when asked by a reporter what her mission was as First Lady, her job was to take care of George Bush.

You must think of another good one for us to discuss in the future as we both enjoy the same books!

Margaret Truman (Harry Truman's daughter) has written a very interesting book titled "First Ladies" which tells the stories of the causes of the first ladies. I tried to put up a link but for some unknown reason it wouldn't work. I tried four times and finally gave up. Worth reading! Lets try this link and have you click on the Look InsideThis Book link provided under the book.First Ladies There are 37 sample pages to read about our first ladies. They were busier than I thought with causes.

Thanks, ANN, for the link, another book I would like to read. It mentions in one of the reviews, Edith Wilson, and how she ran the country during Woodrow's illness. A book about the two of them is on reserve at my library and if I find it good, I would love to discuss it.

There's no way that I would have the time to read this book or to participate here but I most certainly will be a Lurker!

Robby

Oh, Robby, we like lurkers too; sometimes they even post and those are some of the best!

To anyone else who is finding the first third of the book dry or slow......so did I, but I'm here to say that the emotional impact of the book was growing all along, almost without my realizing it, all the way to the end. I don't really think the author's style changed...we can talk about that....but from somewhere around the middle of the book to the end, I was completely caught up in this amazing story of the end of Eleanor's life. The richness of who she was seeps through the day by day details so meticulously recorded by the author, then written in a book for us.

Betty

Really, Betty! We differ, I found the whole book most satisfying to read, very enjoyable with all the new information about Eleanor and her love for the younger man, who is so very handsome and charming and kind.

It took Edna Gurewitsch 14 years to write this book as she is not an author, just the wife of the charming and handsome and kind doctor who was devoted to Eleanor.

One weekend I happened to turn on C-Span and wish I had turned it on sooner as Edna Gurewitsch was just finishing her talk about the book and answering questions in some library. I got the book at my Library shortly thereafter and just love the insights she has to offer into the personality of Eleanor. I have read a couple of books about her over the years and admired her so very, very much

Happy to see you here, Betty, and I know this is going to be one of those conversations among friends that we never want to end.

Ella, I don't know why I was dragging at the first of the book, because by the time I was hooked, I was feeling so emotionally engaged, so caught up in every detail. The television miniseries Franklin and Eleanor, shown so many years ago (15 or more? with Jane Alexander as the very young Eleanor all the way to the year of Franklin's death) was a traumatic experience for me, leaving me feeling so upset for Eleanor. By the end of this book, I was feeling similarly emotional, but a different kind of upset. I'll save my descriptive words for Eleanor for later. The resource of letters is incredible, but I'm left so curious about the ones destroyed.

Betty

I think that the title "Kindred Souls" engaged my interest immediately. To me, this phrase means depth in the meeting of mind and spirit - a great love - between two people, and I think the author (her daughter) chose this with a great deal of thought.

Age seems to have become unimportant in relationships in the last few years. I have two male friends who were married to women, 16 and 20 years respectively, older then themselves. Both say that they had happy marriages and still grieve for their wives who have been dead for a few years. And yes I would write love letters to a man younger than myself, if such a man as David was in my life.

I am looking forward to this discussion.

Barbara

I read this book in the spring (2002), therefore it's been a few months, but I was captivated from almost the beginning. I don't know if I would have been if it had not been about a "real" person, and was therefore only fiction.

Kindred Souls to me means 2 people who found each other to be their soul mates. I did not get the impression that Eleanor was David's soul mate, as much as David was hers. I think despite her fascinating circle of friends and family, as well as the worthy work she was doing, she was a lonely person, and needed someone who she could confide in. This confiding and his being her personal "muse" so to speak, is what drew her to him.

I would not be as likely to correspond with someone that much younger than I, but because he was younger, and she was a powerful woman she found it possible to do so, initially. As their relationship developed, however, she became the supplicant and he the muse.

David continued to refer to Eleanor as Mrs. Roosevelt, as he revered her as a valuable older woman friend. This is the conflict in the story. She called him the familiar first name, as she considered him her soul mate, and to her their relationship was entirely personal.

I don't believe Eleanor discussed her personal relationship with her husband, with David. I think she felt her relationship with David was entirely separate from her marriage. It was an additional relationship, and at the time she began her friendship with David, it was over, as she came to him as a new widow. Unless he would have asked her questions directly about that time, she would not have dwelled on it.

I don't know anything about First Ladies prior to Eleanor and after. If I had to guess who might have emulated her, I would guess Hillary Clinton. The times were different, however, so was her "rein" as first lady.

I don't know the answer to the last question either, though I don't think that declaration is revered in retrospect. I also think that many of the problems with Israel and its relationship with its neighbors, has roots in the way Palestine was dealt with in her time. It's a secondary story to the book Kindred Souls. You have to know something of the history of the region, to be aware of it.

Rachel

Welcome, RACHEL!!

We're delighted that you posted and that you want to join us. What perceptive, well-thought-out comments! Please stay with us because your point of view is an asset to our discussion. Our discussion lasts a month and there is time to leisurely and respectfully explore our various opinions about the book and dialogue with each other.

The questions that you answered so well are discussion starters for the first 83 pages or so, and more "think" questions will follow for each segment of the book on a weekly basis. The fun of it all is that each question brings up related issues and each answer reflects the personal point of view of the respondent. We all enjoy talking to each other over a cybercup of coffee and trading viewpoints. I always find it so enriching to hear the opinions of different people.

Even if you don't have the book anymore, please do hang around and talk with us. Our discussion formally begins tomorrow and we'd love to explore your further feelings about Eleanor Roosevelt and David Gurewitsch. I usually find that lots of new thoughts begin to occur to me as I read the comments of others.

For instance, your comments made me think about the idea that, in many relationships, one person sometimes cares MORE than the other. I wonder, was that a typical dynamic for Eleanor Roosevelt? How did she relate to most adults? To those she loved in her family? Well...you get the idea...there's lots to talk and opine about in the book. There are no wrongs or rights, just the pleasure of seeing ideas filtered through many different minds and perceptions. We also surely welcome any differing opinions that are courteously expressed, RACHEL.

So glad you posted! You come back often now, RACHEL. Just love your ideas and writing! The fun of our book discussion is just beginning.

Harriet

What a wonderful post, Rachel, and welcome to the discussion!! My participation time will be somewhat reduced, but I can't wait to read more of your thoughts about Eleanor and her David.....and reactions from others, too. What a perfect book for discussion....thanks to Ella.

Betty

Today is the 1st September here, so in case I am jumpting the gun, I'll limit myself to addressing the question about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It seems to me that globally very little has been achieved since the nearly sixty years that this wonderful idealistic declaration was ratified. "EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND SECURITY OF PERSON." but we are a long, long way from achieving equality, even in our own small communities let alone the world. There are still millions of children without education, even without the right to life, let alone "A STANDARD OF LIVING ADEQUATE FOR THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, INCLUDING FOOD, CLOTHING AND HOUSING." Even the present Conference in Johannesburg highlights the differences between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.

"EVRYONE HAS DUTIES TO THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH ALONE THE FREE AND FULL DEVELOPMENT OF HIS PERSONALITY IS POSSIBLE." One wonders how big business views this principle in view of the crash of Enron and other large organisations, motivated by greed. And others in our materialistic society. Of course there are many individuals who are role models in supporting their communities in a way that allows people alone to develop although I notice that here now there is discussion about big business and social responsibility.

Having said this I believe the Declaration has made law makers more aware of how the world should treat its citizens, and the deprived citizens themselves aware of the sort of life they should be striving for. And many organisations are working towards a more equal society.

Here endeth my soap box for today. grinning

Barbara S

PS My copy was published in 1948 and I wonder if the gender bias has been corrected in the years in between. I would like to see a few more 'hers" included.

WELCOME EVERYONE TO OUR DISCUSSION OFKINDRED SOULS or, we could say, the years that Eleanor spent as a widow after the death of FDR and the man she loved throughout these years until her death.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE ALREADY REMARKED ABOUT THE BOOK, we are so pleased that you enjoyed it but we have much to talk about. The discussion schedule is posted in the header and so we can all be on the "same page" so to speak, let's confine our remarks to those pages listed for the first week.

Most of here remember President Roosevelt with all his charisma, his rapport with the public, the radio fireside chats, the great leader of the USA, not only during the depression but throughout WWII.

But how much do we know of Eleanor the child, the young woman, the wife. Let’s concentrate briefly on her life before we begin the book, okay? Can you all share what you know of her childhood and her life with the president? What went into this remarkable woman, called by many the most influential lady of the 20th century, that produced someone that still invokes memories worldwide, a woman who is still being written about years after her death?

Let's all share our knowledge of the woman first, then we can begin the book!

Good idea, ELLA, to put Eleanor Roosevelt into the context of her earliest life and formative experiences. I went hunting through my house and came up with a dog eared copy of AN UNTOLD STORY: THE ROOSEVELTS OF HYDE PARK by Eleanor's son, Elliott Roosevelt and James Brough. I also found a video tape of the wonderful PBS series, The American Experience, which profiled Eleanor Roosevelt in a 2 1/2 hour study. (I do love to tape the American Experience productions whenever I can.) And finally, I found an ancient and venerable paperback copy of UPSTAIRS AT THE WHITE HOUSE by J. R. West, Chief Usher of the White House, 1941 - 1969.

Who says it doesn't pay to be a pack rat?

I've begun to skim my little library and I'm having a good time. For starters, Eleanor had a distant and cool mother...a society beauty who was disappointed in the physical appearance of her only daughter and made no attempt to hide that emotion. Her father was a warm and vibrant man who expressed affection and warmth easily, but spent much time away from home and had a weakness for alcohol.

After the early death of both parents, Eleanor was raised by her unbending maternal Granny. That worthy woman aimed at instilling morality and duty into Eleanor, but apparently didn't see any need to express open affection to the lonely little girl.

Eleanor always longed for intimacy and acceptance but had never received it in her youth, and had never been part of a household where people expressed such feelings to each other.

There's so much more in the book and video tape, but this post grows long....more later, after others have had a chance to share...

Harriet

Hi Harriet! Yes, it does pay to keep old books, you never know! So let's talk with each other until someone comes in to join us. I did a little searching for tidbits of information about Eleanor's childhood also - as you said her mother was a great beauty and her father, brother of Teddy, was as handsome as the mother was gorgeous. But alas, a beautiful mother expects beautiful children and Eleanor was not - her mother didn't try to hide her feelings apparently.

She called Eleanor "little granny" and often laughed about the child's seriousness to visitors.

However, Eleanor loved her father and they were very close. He tried to make up for the lack of love in her life, but, as you stated Harriet, he was an alcoholic and often depressed with life.

When Eleanor was 7 years old, her mother died of diptheria and she and her two brothers went to live at their maternal grandmother's house. One brother died of scarlett fever while young - eight years old - and her father died the next year

But I couldn't find anything about the other brother, Hall, I think his name was.

Can you imagine a young child surviving all these deaths in her family at such a young age?

I read that Eleanor EXPECTED disasters, particularly with her own children as a result of her difficult childhood, ELLA.

I skimmed my book for her brother, Hall. He was apparently an unusually brilliant man, gifted far beyond Eleanor or Franklin. I haven't read far enough or fast enough to find out his ultimate destiny yet.

An interesting sidebar. Eleanor's son, Elliott, claimed that Eleanor's father suffered from a brain tumor, and used alcohol only as surcease from his constant headaches. The implication was that his mother propagated her father's alcoholic image because it fit so well with her "Little Nell" image of a victimized person.

Yet, a different son validated Eleanor's version of his grandfather's problems with alcohol during an interview in The American Experience. I thought I caught traces of a few other unresolved mother/son issues in some pages of AN UNTOLD STORY. I think it may be that Eleanor never learned to exert the full warmth of her personality with her children as they grew up?

She was, I read somewhere, LEAST comfortable in the intimate moments of her private life with her immediate family?

Harriet

I was fortunate to find this forum a few days ago and was immediately interested in the book reviews section. Anxiously I set out to purchase "Kindred Souls" only to find that it is not in stock in my town nor was I able to get it at a couple of places we tried in Dallas yesterday. I will be ordering it online and hope to have it arrive soon. I did purchase "the autobiography of Eleanor Roosevelt" and I am loving every page.

I find it fascinating how family members can differ in their perception of family traits and problems, such as alcoholism. Thanks so much HarrietM for this insight into the Roosevelt sons. Very interesting............

Welcome, OPAL HARRIET!!

ELLA and I are so glad to see you here. Whenever your book arrives, we'll be here waiting. Actually, why don't you join us with any comments that you may care to make while you're waiting for the book?

We're delighted to have you join us. P.S. I like your name!

Harriet

Hahaha, we have an Opal Harriet and a plain Harriet! AH!!! No opals, no jewels for our sweet, helpful, wonderful plain Harriet. I shall christen you DIAMOND HARRIET - SO THERE!

My book, OPAL, is from my Library and I can renew it once - try there! My Library is so close to where I live (in a small town) that I go once a week at least! I pass it whenever I do my rounds of grocery shopping, banking, whatever, and it is a branch of a huge Library system that according to some estimates is the 3rd most used Library system in America.

Our book begins after the death of FDR, but don't you think it is important to understand Eleanor a little before we begin these years? There are books and books on both Eleanor & Franklin and each of them separately.

In fact, I have another book beside me entitled "ELEANOR: THE YEARS ALONE" by Joseph P. Lash, whose wife, Trude, was a very good friend of Eleanor. You will notice when you begin the book that Trude's illness at home is the reason that Eleanor met young, handsome David Gurewitsch.

All I know of Eleanor's children is that they were constantly a problem for her as adults; needing money, divorcing and remarrying causing bad publicity for the family.

Did she ever take care of the children when young or did they have nannies who produced them for appearance sake?

It is understandable that Eleanor, having lost so many members of her family at a young age, was fearful of loving another person!

Anyone?

DON'T DESPAIR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE THE BOOK! WE WILL BEGIN TO DISCUSS IT TOMORROW! SORRY FOR THE DELAY!

Why, thank you Harriet, I like our name also. And, thank you Ella for the warm welcome. I'm not very far along in the autobiography because I am reading Truman also.

I notice that although Eleanor was sent to live with her Grandmother, she is seldon actually there with her. After she went away to school, holidays and vacations are spent with various relatives, friends, and teachers from school.

I think this was not at all unusual for the children of wealthy families during the time, but it certainly must have been very instrumental in forming Eleanor's personality and maybe even her failure to bond with her children later.

I see we have some very interesting and indepth questions to look at in our review of Kindred Souls. I am very excited!

Its most gratifying to come in here and see such astute posts, well researched too. I also remember Eleanor as a child adored her father, Ellie. When he collapsed with first bouts of alchoholism, his sister, Bamie, took him to a sanitarium in the Austrian Alps and spent the time there reassuring him about his treatment. According to David McCullough's "Mornings on Horseback" about Theodore Roosevelt:" Ellie's marriage had become a shambles, he had been involved in a paternity suit, threatened suicide more than once and was placed in various institutions in Europe and the Middle West for the "cure," beginning during the winter of 1891. He finally lost his battle and died in August 1894.
Before his wife and son died in '92 and '93, he was known to just wander the streets of NYC, usually drunk, rarely even returning to his "digs". But, when they went to clean up his apartment after he died, they found it unusually neat and scads of pictures of Eleanor displayed around the rooms.
In "Mornings on Horseback" DM says "Eleanor, who had idolized her father, would strive to be as brave and selfless as he had wanted her to be, guided by her aunt Bamie(Ellie's sister) and encouraged by Theodore Roosevelt. both of whom were her first cousins.
When Eleanor married Franklin Roosevelt, Theodore, then president, gave her away. Her father, Ellie,who was Theodore's brother, had been Franklin's godfather.
Didn't she come late to showing her affection for anyone in such an elaborate way?

As I told Ella, when I finished the book, I really felt that because her children were such a disappointment to her, she idolized David as her "Perfect Son". There are many women who depend on their adored sons for confiding in, traveling with and just plain enjoying the other's company. They were both "Old Souls" and recognised that trait in each other. Yes, "Soulmates"!

Another thought, isn't it amazing that this lady became such a stable parent and good friend to many after her blighted childhood?

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR POSTS, OPAL AND ANN!

"it (the schooling in England)certainly must have been very instrumental in forming Eleanor's personality and maybe even her failure to bond with her children later."

Possibly quite true, Opal, although she claims this schooling allowed her for the first time in her life to have friends, good times with others, and one book states that she "blossomed" during those years.

What could a young woman who had known very little love and affection in her childhood know of being a mother or a wife; she certainly had no role models. Her grandmother's house was very grim and silent, she was told often "don't do this" - a rare visit to her uncle Teddy was quite a treat for the young girl.

Knowing of her unhappiness at the fate of her parents, wouldn't you have thought that Teddy Roosevelt, who loved children and was such a gregarious fellow, would have taken more of an interest in his niece? And if you've read any biography of Teddy, you know how disciplined and determined he was to be successful, both physically and mentally.

" Before his wife and son died in '92 and '93, he (Ellie) was known to just wander the streets of NYC, usually drunk, rarely even returning to his "digs".

Thanks, Ann, for telling us of McCullough's book - that's one I haven't read, did the book say why he was called "Ellie." Seems a strange nickname; perhaps because I'm often called that! Was the book about all of the Roosevelt family or just Teddy?

DO ALL OF YOU SEE THE PICTURE IN THE RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE HEADING?

Did you notice it is the same picture of Eleanor that is on the second page of the book opposite the title? The inscription on the photograph is one of the saddest lines I've ever read I believe.

I just rewatched a good portion of my tape of The American Experience about Eleanor Roosevelt and paid special attention to the earlier part of her life. It provided some interesting insights. You asked, ELLA, what sort of vision Eleanor could possibly have about motherhood after her difficult childhood? That was a perceptive comment.

According to The American Experience, both Eleanor and Franklin loved their children. Franklin was a charmer, much like Eleanor's own father. He appeared and played with the children, swept them up with affection, made them laugh...they adored him. Then he disappeared...NOT into alcoholic oblivion, as did Elliott Roosevelt, Eleanor's father... but into politics and personal concerns. He didn't involve himself in his children's problems or values or daily life. He felt THAT was the province of others.

Eleanor's domineering mother-in-law, Sara, lived next door. She hired the nannies and encouraged the children to come to HER whenever they had an issue with Eleanor, their own mother. Sara wanted her grandchildren to love HER, to consider her to be their mother and mentor, so she gave them anything they wanted, often over Eleanor's protests, and lavished them with material goods and candy. Franklin simply didn't want to confront his mother in Eleanor's behalf.

Sadly. Eleanor found herself playing the same role that her own grim Granny Hall had played in her own early years. Granny Hall's strict rules had been aimed at building character and protecting Eleanor from the dissipation and alcoholism that was rampant in both sides of Eleanor's family. In adulthood, Eleanor, like Granny Hall, wanted HER children to grow into good people, so she became their "watchdog," the "conscience" of her brood. SHE was the nay-sayer when the good times rolled.

The children suffered from the parental lacks of BOTH of their eminent parents. Later they watched their mother lavish intimacy and tender regard on strangers, and saw outsiders achieve a relationship with their mother that they couldn't even BEGIN to approach. It must have been a complex family life.

Perhaps Eleanor saw the correlation between herself and her maternal grandmother. After the death of Granny Hall, Eleanor thought about all of that woman's undeveloped gifts in art and music and she was determined, unlike her grandmother, to have a life OUTSIDE of the family that fostered her individual interests. She believed a woman should have a life apart from her home and hearth just as men did.

It was interesting that one of the narrators of the TV special was our own authoress, Edna Gurewitsch, a vivid and charming woman. Thank you for bringing the inscription beneath the youthful picture of Eleanor to my attention. I hadn't noticed it.

So poignant...

Harriet

ANN, I've been thinking a lot about your feeling that David Gurewitsch was like Eleanor's perfect son. I think you're right...that this may be how Eleanor resolved certain aspects of this relationship. I thought that this possibility seems consistent with some parts of Eleanor's letters in the first part of the book.

Harriet

Ella, Ellie's name was Elliott and of course, his parents were responsible for the change or babying of the children's names. Elliott was Ellie, Theodore was Teed and Theo, Anna was Bamie(favorite spinster aunt(until she was forty when she married and had her only child at 43) of the Roosevelts, and Corinne was Conie. They were all born in a span of 3 or 4 years.
I believe that I mispoke myself when I said that Teddy(Teed) was Eleanor's first cousin. He was her uncle as Ellie was his older brother. Ellie's mother in law was Anna Hall who brought up Eleanor in the strictest fashion.
Alice Roosevelt was Teddy's first child. Her mother died from what sounds like the present day term, "eclampsia". He then married Edith Carow and had another family.
Eleanor was born in 1884 and was christened Anna Eleanor--Anna for her mother and Bamie, Eleanor for her father, Elliot.
Yes, do get "Mornings on Horseback" or borrow my copy, Ella. I just read it over this morning, well, scanned it deeply. Wanted to squeeze out all that I could of the childhood experiences of Eleanor.
Elliott's mother, Mitte Buloch Roosevelt, who came from Roswell, GA, and lived there in Bulloch Hall. I have been there often to quilt shows and on a tour once. We also were able to see Barrington Hall which was built by Mitte's brother. ( I lived only three miles away from Roswell and I recognize many of the things mentioned in MOH. The father of this family or uncle moved to Cobb County, GA, which is where we lived, the two times we resided in the Atlanta area. We lived in Marietta and in Kennesaw. Many Civil War Historical sights and sites are there to tour.

There's a brief page in here about Mitte Bulloch's best friend, Mrs William Baker. In 1920, a reporter came to interview one of Mitte's friends about her life in Roswell. At the time, the lady was living in Barrington Hall with one of her grandchildren. The reporter was a young woman who was then signing herself Peggy Mitchell: she was Margaret Mitchell. Many claim that Mitte was a model for Scarlet O'Hara in "GWTW" and that "Tara" might have been an impression of Bulloch and Barrington Halls.

I am a bit confused. Which book are we discussing. If it is not the Kindred Souls one, but another one, could you please direct me to the title. I have several of the Roosevelt books, but am a little lost with a couple of the ones you are discussing. I may be able to get them out here.

Barbara

BARBARA, you're definitely in the KINDRED SOULS discussion. We were trying to understand a little of Eleanor Roosevelt's early years in the hope that it would shed some light on the person she was when she met David Gurewitsch. If you have any information that would be helpful, please don't hesitate to share. We value your ideas and knowledge from any prior readings.

I'm sure ELLA will want to begin discussing KINDRED SOULS very soon.

Harriet

Oh, no, Barbara, that is not necessary at all.

WE ARE DISCUSSING KINDRED SOULS - we got off the subject for a little while, simply because I asked the question about Eleanor's childhood in attempting to understand her - well, what shall I call it - her longing for love in her later years - what would you call it?

She had very little in her life up until FDR died - he was unfaithful to her (his affair with Lucy Mercer) and she depended strictly on friends for affection.

Okay, we must keep to the book!

Who is in your life that you would call a "kindred soul?"

What does that expression mean?

My dictionary describes the word "kindred" as a group of related persons, family, clan, tribe, or a person's relatives, etc.

This does not describe Eleanor and David in this book do you think? What was their relationship? Did it mean the same to both of them?

Ann thinks that David was like a "perfect son" to Eleanor and I disagree. You would not write these letters to a son, perfect or imperfect.

Let's hear from you - your turn, Barbara, before we go any further?

I did write quite a bit about my concept of a kindred soul earlier on - maybe before the discussion started - oops.

From my reading about FDR and Eleanor (quite a while ago) - yes I agree with what has been said about her yearning for love - as everyone points out she had precious little from extended family, marriage or children. But then she may have found it difficult to give love appropriately. You have to experience love to be able to give it.

Will get back here shortly to give my ideas on the relationship with David. I didn't get the impression that it was a mother/son relationship.

Barbara

I read two things in the AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ELEANOR ROOSEVELT that may add to our understanding of her concept of a relationship, both with David and her children.

After the death of her Mother, Ellie visited her and told her that someday she would make a home for him again, and they would travel together and do many things which he painted as interesting and pleasant, to be looked forward to in the future.

Eleanor says that there started that day a feeling that never left her, that her Father and she were very close and someday would have a life of their own together. This was their secret of mutual understanding.

Later, Eleanor speaks of her Grandmother Hall and how that her Grandmother had no life other than her family. She says that at a young age she determined that she would never be dependent upon her children by allowing all her interests to center in them.

Eleanor doubted that it is good for us to feel assured of love and unquestioned loyalty without the accompanying obligation of having to justify this devotion by our behavior.

I think her time with David helped to fulfill her dreams of a future life with Ellie. David was the one person whose behavior she felt deemed him worthy of her great love and loyalty.

Opal Harriet

That's illuminating information, OPAL.

I wondered at the extravagance of Eleanor's phraseology in some of her letters to David Gurewitsch. For instance on p.53:

"Remember always please that wherever I am open arms await you. My home anywhere is yours when you need it whether you are alone or whether you want to bring those that you love....You know, I think that I would rather be with you than with anyone else whether we are alone or whether I am just watching you from afar. I am grateful to have known you and hope that we may keep close even though you may establish a new life far away."

As I read her letter, it ran through my head that if ANY woman (not just Eleanor) wrote such personal sentiments in the hope that others would reciprocate to her in the same vein, she was most likely destined for a life of sad disappointment. However your comment adds a different facet to this passage.

Did Eleanor feel that she had to justify any affection she received with her own unlimited devotion? Did those that SHE loved have to undergo an initial period in which they PROVE themselves worthy of her loyalty? Yet it does seem to me that once someone was firmly ensconced in her heart, she would forgive and accept just about anything?

Edna Gurewitsch (EG) provided her own analysis of the relationship between her husband and Eleanor.(p.42)

"She (Eleanor) related to David on different levels. To her, he encompassed the qualities she had missed in her husband, her sons, and above all, in that one father she needed to "replace": steadfastness, loyalty, and the capacity to relieve her deeply rooted loneliness. Her letters reveal thoughts of David as a lover; she revered him at times as a father, and protected him as a son."

How do you all feel about our author's analysis at this early point in the book?

Harriet

WHAT INTERESTING POSTS, OPAL AND HARRIET! THANK YOU SO MUCH!

It's a complex relationship, isn't it, and perhaps will never be defined in a few words.

The author calls it a "unique friendship." That word covers a lot of territory; I've never known anyone to have this relationship, although Barbara tells of marriages she has known where the woman was older than the man, and I went back to retrieve her earlier post which I found fascinating. Let me quote it here:

"I think that the title "Kindred Souls" engaged my interest immediately. To me, this phrase means depth in the meeting of mind and spirit - a great love - between two people, and I think the author (her daughter) chose this with a great deal of thought.

Age seems to have become unimportant in relationships in the last few years. I have two male friends who were married to women, 16 and 20 years respectively, older then themselves. Both say that they had happy marriages and still grieve for their wives who have been dead for a few years. And yes I would write love letters to a man younger than myself, if such a man as David was in my life."

That's great, Barbara, thanks so much for posting this information. Did the women show age faster than their husbands? I asked this question because it seems to me that men, somehow, stay younger looking than women through the years. Isn't this proven by the movies where men can continue long after the women have been forced to quit.

Undoubtedly, it was, as Barbara defined it - "depth in the meeting of mind and spirit - a great love between two people"

Harriet, to answer your question, I think there are all three of the elements you mentioned, love for a father, a lover and a protected son. Yes, I think that the letters show this, but what of David's love for her?

Have you noticed that Eleanor's letters all begin with the salutation of "David Dearest" or something very similar; whereas David's letters all begin with "Dearest Mrs. R."

A sign of respect on David's part? But is that what she wanted - just respect?

As quoted on page 12, Eleanor wrote to David "You know without my telling you that I love you as I love and have never loved anyone else."

But she loved her father!

In David's journal, on page 13 and 14 he gives a description of the developing friendship between the two of them, they had much in common, both growing up fatherless and being cared for by grandparents.

David speaks of their common belief in "accomplishment in life was to be measured more in terms of service than happiness."

Somewhere I read that because of Eleanor's belief that she was homely in appearance, she decided that if there was not to be love in her life, she could be liked for her service to others.

Wouldn't you have loved to listen to these two intelligent people?

While I have the book in front of me quoting a few things I see a note I made to the effect that I don't understand why David was "stateless" and was issued a Nansen passport (I'd never heard of that), but he was born in Switzerland, why couldn't he get a Swiss passport?

And I note also Edna's descriptions of her husband on page 17, for this is the author speaking here: honest, intense, worldly but innocent, passionate, cooly objective, nonjudgmental, not snobbish, highly educated, warmly outgoing, etc.

Good old Google came up with a number of references to Nansen Passports, issued to stateless refugees at the end of WWI. Perhaps David had by that time become stateless, or perhaps just being born in Switzerland doesn't give you citizen status... they are stricter than the US.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~pal/inventio.htm

That's just one of them.

Fran (on her way to the library where the online info says it's in..but how am I going to keep up with Truman???????)

Welcome, FRAN!!

Now you just head right to that library, FRAN, and don't hesitate to pick up your copy of KINDRED SOULS, because blending the study of a former President and a former First Lady is a very compatible thing to do! Hahaha!

Seriously, you're as welcome as can be. Thanks for the link on the Nansen Passport. I don't understand why David was stateless either, but his early background seemed to include much relocation so the Nansen Passport was obviously internationally acceptable. The relocations left Gurewitsch feeling his own version of vulnerability.

Perhaps that aspect of his life explains one of the reasons why David was drawn to Mrs. Roosevelt? The rootless boy became the valued friend of an influential and admired woman? His wife wrote that David had a genius for intimacy...an intuitive sympathy for the needs of others, and a desire to exert his gift for empathy to comfort those around him. Wasn't that a fortunate coinciding of the needs of both Gurewitsch and Eleanor?

Harriet

It seems to me that the title "Kindred Souls" might reveal that when David and Eleanor met, they recognized each other as "old souls" which would give almost instant recognition of each other. And, it was so important to them both, due to their childhoods. The relationship does have several layers but the one thing that I find with David is his kindness, compassion and yes, respect for Eleanor. Also, his enjoyment of her company for if he hadn't felt a pull to her, he certainly had other things to do and other people to see. It is possible that they were both needy people. One fulfilled the other. And the age difference really didn't matter.

When I first read this section of the book, I read without questioning and was deeply touched, bearing in mind the upheaval in the young lives of both Eleanor and David. On second reading though, I began to question more. I began to look more deeply into this relationship and try to get inside the minds of the two main characters and their motivation for, and quality of, this relationship. I always find it very hard to understand the type of lives that presidents and prime ministers and kings and queens live, it is somehow beyond my imagination, so this is always a barrier for me when I read about these people.

One of my reservations I have is about the trysts between David and Eleanor in various hotels. This would not have been anything like say, me and a lover having a tete-a-tete, they would have been surrounded by staff and security people. My point is that there would have been very little privacy for them. Do these people get used to carrying on their private lives in public glare? Were the many deeply meaningful conversations that took place between the two conducted under the surveillance of others? Or where did they take place?

My other confusion is about the nature of the relationship: the older woman with her deep longings for love and intimate companionship and the handsome, charismatic younger man who we learn had a number of relationships with other women. It is a great pity that Eleanor's daughter destroyed most of David's letters, I am sure they would have thrown more light on the relationship.

I found the interminable footnotes an unnecessary diversion from the main story and so many of them could have been included in the text. The author's editor should have done this.

I wondered about David dearest and Dear Mrs. Roosevelt, and I thought it might have been David's caution in commiting himself to print in case posterity scandalised the relationship.

Barbara

WELCOME FRAN!

WHAT POSTS - SO MUCH FUN (AND ENLIGHTENING TO READ!) THANK YOU ALL!

Hey, Fran, I'm trying to do the same thing as you are and I think Ann is also posting in the TRUMAN book. We take turns with this one and that one - more fun, isn't it?

BUT WHAT GOOD COMPANY WE ARE IN! ELEANOR ROOSEVELT AND TRUMAN - GEE!

Did anyone watch A&E last night? They had the best and worst of our presidents on and I was surprised that Truman was 7th, FDR was third, Washington was second and Lincoln was first. They said they had polled 300 historians for the list and one of my favorite actors, apparently, is a historian - Richard Dreyfuss? He talked very knowledgeably about the presidents. Many other historians were on the program.

ANN - yes, I agree they both fulfilled a need for someone to confide in, but more than that - on page 5 of the book you'll see Eleanor's good friend, Esther Lape's opinion of their deep friendship - "she not only loved you, she was 'in love' with you. You loved her and were not in love with her.'"

That sums it up, I think, and is the reason David kept to a more formal note in his letters, while Eleanor poured her heart out to him.

BARBARA - as always you bring to our attention something to think about as we read further in the book. Eleanor was known all over the world, people did recognize her, she had traveled extensively and had been the subject of much publicity.

How did they find time to be alone to visit? I'm going to pay attention to that aspect as we go along. Many of their visits were at Val-Kill where Eleanor could control their privacy, they met on an airplane I remember and with innumerable stops they found they had much in common.

Apparently at times Eleanor traveled alone, don't you think?

In Eleanor's own autobiography titled "THIS IS MY STORY" there are 6 references to David and one reference to Edna. In the book she mentioned Dr. Gurewitsch as "one of the party" or as "one who accompanied her." He was always referred to as Dr. Gurewitsch.

In a mammoth biography of Eleanor (2 volumes) David is never mentioned, and in the book "Eleanor, The Years Alone" by Joseph Lash he is mentioned a number of times as David, her very close friend and companion; many of the pictures in this book are from David's collection.

I am amused at various authors, in one book I read that Frances Perkins (wasn't she the first woman Treasury Secretary - I'll have to look that up) was so envious of Eleanor as she kept in the public eye until her death and Frances Perkins said that "she didn't even have a tidy mind" - whereas Edna mentions Eleanor as "superbly organized."

BARBARA - I do agree that the footnotes could have been included in the text; perhaps they were added later as an afterthought??? This is the only book the author, understandably, has ever written and probablly the last and we are fortunate to at least have the letters.

Do you think that Anna (ER's daughter) destroyed the letters because she thought they might be embarrassing to the family? Why would she have done that?

Frances Perkins was the first female cabinet member and was Secretary of Labor. Click here for more information about the lady: Frances Perkins

Ella and Barbara have zeroed in on the missing piece of this puzzle, as Ella asked "What of David's love for her[Eleanor]?" and Barbara reminded us that David's letters to Eleanor were destroyed (burned) by Eleanor's daughter, Anna. After all of the circumstantial information and really interesting sources the author draws on to document Eleanor's last years, I'm left with the frustrating thought that we really can't know what happened between Eleanor and her doctor/friend, David. It's really a romantic mystery.

The author, David's wife, covers all the bases, doesn't she, when she writes that David was son/lover/father to Eleanor.

What the author also seems to suggest in the book is that the relationship evolved over time.....which is true of most adult loving relationships, whether romantic or family or friend. What remains a mystery for me is how intimate were the two of them at the beginning, long before David married the author? How frustrating not to have David's written responses to all those intimate letters from Eleanor.

Betty

I would think that the greatest current intrusion on the privacy of presidents and their families stems from the ubiquitous protection of the United States Secret Service. With that in mind, it's possible that Eleanor had a comparatively large amount of discretion in her personal travel and daily movements compared to the family members of more recent United States Presidents, BARBARA and ELLA.

According to this link about the history of The Secret Service , protection for immediate family members of a standing President was only enacted by Congress in 1951. I wonder if Eleanor, as the wife of a PAST president, was included in that coverage? Possibly she might have been, but there would have been a specific time limit on that service.

A new law was enacted as late as 1997 extending the length of SS protection to any former president for TEN years after his term of office. The implication is that if Secret Service protection existed at all for the wife of a former president in the 1940's and 1950's, it would have been withdrawn after a limited amount of time. I'm getting the impression that Eleanor may have sometimes traveled either alone except for her secretary, or with an entourage, particularly when on United Nations business... but it probably consisted mainly of HER choice of handpicked companions? This possibly allowed for more meetings with David and time for intimate conversations?

Later...

Harriet

HELLO BETTY! GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE!

Thanks much, HARRIET, for that information about the Secret Service and I agree with you that there is little evidence to believe that she was surrounded by Secret Service; they would annoy her immensely don't you think?

I wish I could scan in some of the pictures in this book by Joseph Lash (from David's collection); in one it shows Eleanor arriving in Washington and she is all alone - no one around.

When President Truman appointed Eleanor as a representative to the Commission on Human Rights of the United Nations, not only was it good for her own self esteem but for all the nations of the world as she was quite a dogged individual and nobody, whatever their rank, phased her in the least. She had met them all as FDR's wife and now as a single woman and mature she was very capable of speaking for our country and her own beliefs - a determined lady.

HUMAN RIGHTS! Those words have been bandied around by presidents for as long as I can remember and used to either shut a country out of trade or allow them in - and I'm sure most of you have heard them used in other connotations.

They sound very much like our own Bill of Rights in many ways, don't you think?

And Eleanor was chosen as its chairman! I wonder how many women were in the United Nations at that time - anybody know?

I found this on the Web and thought it appropriate it to quote it here:

"A World Made New: Eleanor Roosevelt and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Mary Ann Glendon takes the title of her latest book from the conclusion of Eleanor Roosevelt's nightly prayer: "Save us from ourselves and show us a vision of a world made new. …. Indeed, Glendon's book reminds us that it is almost impossible to overestimate the greatness of Eleanor Roosevelt. In her role as US delegate to the UN, we can only marvel at Mrs. Roosevelt's combination of high principles and political adroitness. Her devotion to noble goals was equaled by her people smarts, as she parried attacks on US policies, defused tensions, and built bridges of consensus” -From Merle Rubin - Christian Monitor.com

“This is the story of Eleanor Roosevelt's proudest achievement, one that both she and generations of historians came to see as her greatest contribution to world history. It marks a crucial turning point in her life, just after the death of FDR, when she had to decide who she would be and what she would do now that she was no longer her husband's wife and the First Lady. It was at this time that the Eleanor Roosevelt who has been enshrined in our memories as one of the greatest women in American history was born” – from the publisher"

What a great tribute to Eleanor!

Let's do a little poll here among ourselves.

How many of you think the United Nations have been effective in "uniting" the nations? And, if so, on what occasions?

How many of you believe the time consumed by the Commission on Human Rights has been well spent?

We are a small group, true, but we have independent voices and they can matter and Barbara is from another country and may bring us a different opinion than those of us who listen to and read what our media has to say.

I have already put in my two penn'th about the Declaration of Human Rights at the beginning of the discussion. Here it is.

Barbara S - 05:52pm Aug 31, 2002 PDT (#41 of 75) From Sydney, Australia - the friendly city. Today is the 1st September here, so in case I am jumpting the gun, I'll limit myself to addressing the question about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It seems to me that globally very little has been achieved since the nearly sixty years that this wonderful idealistic declaration was ratified. "EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND SECURITY OF PERSON." but we are a long, long way from achieving equality, even in our own small communities let alone the world. There are still millions of children without education, even without the right to life, let alone "A STANDARD OF LIVING ADEQUATE FOR THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, INCLUDING FOOD, CLOTHING AND HOUSING." Even the present Conference in Johannesburg highlights the differences between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.

"EVRYONE HAS DUTIES TO THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH ALONE THE FREE AND FULL DEVELOPMENT OF HIS PERSONALITY IS POSSIBLE." One wonders how big business views this principle in view of the crash of Enron and other large organisations, motivated by greed. And others in our materialistic society. Of course there are many individuals who are role models in supporting their communities in a way that allows people alone to develop although I notice that in this country now there is some positive discussion about big business and social responsibility.

Having said this I believe the Declaration has made law makers more aware of how the world should treat its citizens, and the deprived citizens themselves aware of the sort of life they should be striving for. And many organisations are working towards a more equal society.

Here endeth my soap box for today. grinning

Barbara S

PS My copy was published in 1948 and I wonder if the gender bias has been corrected in the years in between. I would like to see a few more 'hers" included.

ELLA I enjoyed your quote about Eleanor Roosevelt - who in the world would not believe that she is probably the most important female figure of the 20th century. A role model for all of us.

Barbara

Have been under the weather once again and will get back to this later over the weekend.

Oh, BARBARA! What can I say other than thanks to you for being so sweet and forgiving of my thoughtlessness or poor memory! MERCY!

I agree with everything you said – particularly this:

”the Declaration has made law makers more aware of how the world should treat its citizens, and the deprived citizens themselves aware of the sort of life they should be striving for. And many organisations are working towards a more equal society."

By the very fact of its existence and being talked about we are placing value on it, don’t you think? Worldwide, the phrase “human rights” was not being discussed until the United Nations was formed.

Here is a site I found that contains the highlights of the Johannesburg Conference to which you alluded and note that you can email them at the bottom of the page – isn’t that something!! This Internet constantly amazes me!

Office of High Commissioner for Human Rights - look this site over - interesting! It appears to be from the Office of the High Commisioner for Human Rights and you can email them at the bottom of the page - how about that?

BETTY, I also agree that burning David's letters was a sad historical loss. Surely Anna must have read them beforehand? She probably felt that those letters reflected poorly upon her mother or other family members. Yet David's letters were surely less emotional and more traditionally affectionate than Eleanor's letters? They all began with the salutation "Dear Mrs. Roosevelt"....?

Eleanor confided in David and sometimes aired family problems and other distressing things in her letters. I doubt that David would have been incautious or untactful enough to put negative opinions of Eleanor's children on paper, but the situations that they discussed may have been too revealing for public distribution in Anna's opinion. Yet, history might have rendered a different judgement and the world has been denied a closer glimpse into the life and thoughts of a remarkable woman.

About the United Nations...once I thought it was the peace-keeping hope of the world. Now I feel it's merely a forum for airing the opinions of the international community. Is it effective? Does it do any good? I wonder...

Nations tend to vote in political blocs without regard for true ethics and I'm not aware of any UN capability to avert war. Yet any international communication has got to be better than no communication at all. Eleanor was an idealist and a humanitarian, and she had to be a superb politician as well to survive in the UN. She was also a pragmatist who tried to accomplish those things that WERE possible, and perhaps, if she were alive, she would be eager to retain a forum that set an ideal goal for the world to achieve.

I agree with you BARBARA on the Declaration of Human Rights. It provides a model for the best we can be, but unfortunately it is NOT a description of the real world. I certainly wish it were.

Hope you feel better soon, Ann.

Harriet

Sorry you are ill, Ann! Do get well soon.

In the news last night, NBC had taken a poll about our possible invasion of Iraq, which our young hot-headed president seems to be favoring in order to relieve Saddam Hussein of his rule as leader of that country, and the majority of people wanted to get UN approval first before any action was taken.

We did that in the Gulf War and I am pleased that America still believes that the UN has a role to play in the unification of the nations of the world.

A good article about the United Nations: United Nations The statistics about the UN were of particular interest.

Then we must get back to our book.

Hi HARRIET!

You are discouraged about the U.N.? You, certainly, are not alone, but I still believe the fact that they meet, they talk, is some little consolation that we all believe problems can be solved reasonably. It's had more than a 50-year history and is still in place - isn't that fact something to applaud?

Eleanor did confide her family problems to David evidenced by several references, one particular at the bottom of page 33 wherein she says:

"You are right, since I left you in Zurich the problems, mostly psychological ones, have been rather heavy on me. I'll tell you all about them in Paris and you can tell me whether I've been wise or wrong in handling my large and complicated family."

Both David and Eleanor needed inclusion in a close friendship and I thought this particular paragraph explained much about their affection for one another:

"As a physician, David had private recognition but he craved public approval. Mrs. Roosevelt had public recognition but she craved intimacy. Each satisfied the other's hunger for acceptance. It was a fair exchange."

Another article in our newspaper this morning states: - "the Senate's top Democrat said President Bush would have an easier time winning backing from Congress for the use of force (in Iraq) if he could first gain U.N.Security Council approval for tougher action.

He suggested that "Bush try to get the kind of U.S. Security Council resolution that Bush's father obtained before the 1991 Persian Gulf War."

Does any one of us want to be around when they lock the doors of the United Nations forever and turn out the lights? Not me, because that is the last hope of mankind to collectively solve the world's problems.

Everytime I come into this discussion the screen stops at that round picture of a young Eleanor in the right-hand corner of the heading and I am reminded of the picture of this pose that Eleanor sent to David with the inscription - "To David, from a girl he never knew."

I get chills thinking about that; she loved him so much and wanted that love to be reciprocated but knowing it could never be.

Did you have a love when you were young that you have never forgotten and wondered about? Don't we all? "If we had taken the road less traveled?"

ELLA, don't you believe that her love WAS reciprocated...though perhaps not in ALL the ways that Eleanor might have wanted? I think she understood that David meant to keep a distance between them to discourage any romantic fantasies...perhaps that's why he always referred to her as Mrs. Roosevelt, both in writing and in person.

One of the ways in which he was careful to show his respect and affection was to NOT mislead Eleanor about the nature of their mutual relationship. Gurewitsch was a needy person, just as Eleanor was, and I think he did want to benefit from Eleanor's warmth, generosity, wisdom and strength...but he was careful not to accept those precious gifts without providing a careful understanding of the nature of HIS feelings? Within the framework of their relationship, David was completely trustworthy...he didn't seem to USE Eleanor and he provided his payment for her devotion in the coin that she valued most...intimacy and dependability.

Perhaps Eleanor always HOPED that she could change his mind, but this was not an aspect of her personality that David could control.

Harriet

I have been intending to stop by here to congratulate you as a group on your discussion centering of the later life of the woman I remember as the first, First Lady. I now extend my congratulations and continue with some personal comments on your subject.

My first realization of the impact of Eleanor Roosevelt came when I was 13 during the 1940 Presidential Campaign through a Republican (Wendell Wilkie) campaign button that read, “We don’t want Eleanor either!” Perhaps this message left me a bit confused because I did question an old neighbor and mentor as to the meaning. He explained that it was an effort to disparage the president because of the unprecedented independent political activities of the First Lady. This was my first clue that Eleanor Roosevelt was a person in her own right, a status that later events certainly confirmed.

Most certainly after the early death of FDR, Eleanor took on a definite political role of her own with her appointment as a U.S. representative to the General Assembly of the United Nations. She became a member (perhaps the most influential member) of the UN’s Commission on Human Rights. In this capacity she participated in the writing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This United Nation document propagated Dec 10, 1948 represents the first comprehensive agreement among nations as to the specific rights and freedoms of all human beings. This Declaration has become a cornerstone of international law, binding all governments to respect basic standards regarding how they treat their people. Eleanor left her U.N. post in 1953 when Eisenhower became President after which she played a prominent role in Democratic Party politics. Including the support of Adlai Stevenson as the 1956 candidate. She was returned to the U.N. General Assemble in 1961 after the Democratic Party regained the Presidency.

I had long understood the United States on some technicality had not ratified this Document. Apparently this is incorrect and I think from the following link that the US has ratified most of not all of the original declaration and subsequent additions. Click here for Information on Universal Declaration on Human Rights. I found the “Time Line” link helpful in understanding the evolution of the Declaration.

I have mixed feelings on the United Nations and its role past and future. I realize it played a very important part in successfully piloting the world’s course through the stormy seas of the cold war. I also realize its important current role in world politics and agree a U.N. mandate approving any military intervention in Iraq is certainly desirable and perhaps absolutely necessary. I cannot help but note a developing U.S attitude that seems to parallel the English/French sentiments that led to the 1938 Munich appeasement of Hitler’s Germany.

Regarding the future role of the U.N,. what about its evolution as the 21st century progresses? Is its evolution into a real Federal style super state possible or desirable? In this regard I sometimes note a U.S. attitude that seems to require duel standards, one applied to the U.S. another for ever one else. An example of this was U.S. acceptance of the extension of the life of the War Crimes Court set up to try War Crimes resulting from the break-up of Yugoslavia. The U.S initially refused to ratify it until amendments were allowed substantially and specifically exempting Americans from its jurisdiction. I doubt the rest of the world would be receptive to the continuation of separate standards regarding their participation.

Oh, Wow! Don't go too far away, Harold, that was such a great post and we need time to digest it all. Thanks so much for coming to give us a personal opinion of our subject. What you said about Eleanor and the Republican Party was shown in more ways than one - Eisenhower, upon becoming president after Truman, accepted Eleanor's resignation as a delegate to the United Nations; where she had been very effective and respected.

Years later at Eleanor's funeral David Gurevitsch went up to General Eisenhower and asked him why he did not make better use of this great lady; Eisenhower just shrugged. But Truman spoke up and said that he had made great use of her because she was the First Lady of the World. That is paraphrased from Joseph Lash's book - Eleanor: The Years Alone.

There is a new book out on the market now titled "Eleanor and Harry (Truman): their correspondence. Here is a clickable to Amazon. Com: Eleanor and Harry: The Correspondence of Eleanor Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman"

The lady just will not stay buried!

later, eg

Just a couple of questions before I must leave to get dinner:

BARBARA - you mentioned Enron (and Worldcom) and the other big businesses that have folded recently because of greed from the top management - has this had an impact in Australia? I don't know how far afield from our country those businesses spread, so am asking out of curiousity.

HARRIET - You put it so well when you stated "I think she understood that David meant to keep a distance between them to discourage any romantic fantasies...perhaps that's why he always referred to her as Mrs. Roosevelt, both in writing and in person."

Yes, I agree she did understand, but it didn't keep her from expressing her own love did it? David's devotion, in a different way, is shown in his letters also. She must have been a fascinating person to know.

What do you think of Harold's indictment of America's attitude toward the United Nations (I know we are in arrears in our debt to that institution) and our expectation of separate standards for our country???? Quite a statement, Harold! I'd love to explore it more, but we must get back to our current book.

Shortly after the collapse of Enron, we had a couple of disasters of our own. One of our biggest insurance companies HIH folded - an enquiry still going on. Greed played a large part here. Also one of our IT phone companies with two scions of first families at the head, one Warwick Murdoch and the other James Packer. Payouts in millions to two of the other directors. There have been some side effects from both the Enron and Worldcom disasters here, mainly through the Banks, Insurance Companies and our Superannuation Funds, all of which have large investments offshore, but our stock market is still relatively healthy - although who knows what happens tomorrow.

Getting back to the book - it seems fom the information that is available to us that Eleanor used David more as a confidant than he did of her. This is why I think David's letters would have revealed more about the relationship. If those letters had been relatively 'innocent", why did Anna burn them?

HAROLD I enjoyed your post and am still digesting it. I am also half way through your homepage and I am fascinated. Will visit back there when I have time.

Barbara

Thanks, BARBARA, for your post! So the system of the "rich getting richer" is worldwide! No doubt!

Interesting your question - "If those letters had been relatively 'innocent", why did Anna burn them?" Does anyone know if the daughter is still living, I haven't heard of any deaths of any of Eleanor's children?

But we must hurry along, because tomorrow we start on our next section. WHERE IS EVERYONE THAT STARTED WITH US??? I will email them to see if I (and it was me) turned them off by getting away from the subject too many times.

David fell in love with a Martha Gelhorn who disliked the USA and New York in particular! Well! And David was about to meed her demand to move to Mexico City. I have a picture of her I wanted to share with you. Click here: Martha Gellhorn Isn't she pretty?

Just a few notes here that I checked in the book: On page 56 we are told that the United States still has not ratified the covenant of basic principles which is needed to give the "human rights declaration" force or the legal authority needed to enforce it. I don't know why - does anyone?

Their visit to Israel, for which Eleanor had fought diligently, must have been an emotional time for both of them; David's letter is particularly heart-warming as he uses words to describe Israel -enormous dynamism.... growth..... progress. Can you imagine someone writing this today:

"Tourists visiting there are almost invariably sent to meet an Arab chieftain in Israeli territory who has remained neutral and rather friendly to the Israelis.....he (the chieftain) rather quickly proposed marriage to her." Hahahaha

Wasn't the trip to India fascinating to read? And didn't you wonder how she was looked upon when she visited Japan in 1953 - about 7-8 years after we dropped the atomic bombs? She describes this visit in her book "On My Own."

A note to myself says: "one can tell the author here rather likes David - haha" as she constantly tells us of his great personality; "loved music and books, contact with people....a teetotaler...glamour and gaiety had always attracted him" etc., etc.

It is little wonder that Eleanor, too, loved the time the two spent alone. And I was amused (page 77) at Elanor's slimming down and dressing very chic in Parisian clothes - David said in his journal "She was so elegant, I hardly recognized her." and the author wonders if David's divorce had anything to do with it.

We wonder, too! The love letters on pgs. 78 and 79 are proof of her love.

later, e.g.

I've almost completed reading Eleanor's AUTOBIOGRAPHY and have received KINDRED SOULS in the mail, so hope to be caught up by tomorrow.

In reading about Eleanor's long, tiring hours spent helping to establish the United Nations plus all her other projects, I am overwhelmed to realize what a person can truly accomplish when they have no self-serving agenda.

But of course, it didn't start there. She had been working quietly to help others for most all of her adult life. It's unbelievable the criticism she endured. We should all be thankful that she learned quickly to just shed it and go on.

Is there anything we "the public" can do NOW to help eliminate the hashness of the press? I believe in being well informed, but are we? What do we know about the projects and works of Laura Bush? We know she works toward better education - but what other projects are dear to her heart? I bet there are many!

I'm certainly more aware now of the importance of the First Lady and what an example she can be to us all.

Oops, I apologize for getting off the subject. I love the book and look forward to more discussion about Eleanor and David.

Opal Harriet

Your em received. If in the future I don't post as often as I should, it is because I am so very very busy, but I will be lurking and thoroughly enjoying all the posts (even if some of them are slightly off the book VBG).

I am half way through the web sit of Martha Gellhorn. Was anyone else struck by the similarity in the characters of Eleanor and Martha? I had this rather (still untidy) thought, that if these two women provided a dimension that was necessary to David's life, was this the reason that he still needed a relationship with Eleanor after he married?

I had better get on and read the next pages.

Barbara

I guess my memory of previous information is fading, but please, tell me again, why is it that WE believe that David and Eleanor's friendship was only platonic?

Surely it is not only because this is what David told Edna?

After all, wasn't he the one who just happened to forget to mention the depth of the friendship to Edna before marrying her? Something about not wanting to complicate the friendship between the two women?

I may feel differently as I read more, but at this point I think that Edna was more than vaguely aware of the sexual part of David and Eleanor's relationship. But maybe I'm wrong on both counts.....

Does anyone/everyone think I am way off base here?

Opal Harriet

Opal, You asked if others think you are off base, thinking of Eleanor's and David's relationship as sexual. I'm pretty sure you mean sexual at the beginning of the relationship, before his marriage to Edna. Or, maybe you are leaving open the stretch of time that it could have been sexual.

Well, I have to say that I didn't read anything that precludes that possibility. I don't think we can say for sure that it wasn't sexual. "Sexual" can cover a whole range of physical intimacy. And then there is the whole range of "intimacy." What if a couple holds hands and watches the sun come up over the desert? What about a couple watching old home movies, then listening to music as one falls asleep with his head in her lap? There could be an amazing amount of intimacy that really wasn't sexual, but wasn't "lesser than." More than platonic, but not quite sexual. We can't know.

Betty

In discussing this book with another book group, we came up with the thought that many people have sexual thoughts or dreams that are never acted upon so why not Eleanor and David? And, yes, what about just sharing the sunsets, a romantic dinner, a wonderful trip to Russia?

I am beginning to not like David. The more that I read, I can't find much redeeming value to him. He seems to have used the women that he knew and loved. I still feel that his need for a mother figure in his life is his strongest inclination,ie. the purchase of the brownstone with her. In fact, after rereading some of the book, I don't really think we know him as well as we know Eleanor. Its the missing letters, isn't it?

Good morning. Today we begin discussing pp. 84 - 151 in our book. By the way, there are new questions in the heading, folks.

Up until now Edna Gurewitsch has been objective...she presented Eleanor's letters and David's journal and described some events as they happened. Essentially, she wrote as a historian. However, in this section of our book the dynamics of her writing subtly shifts.

Now our author has begun reacting in a personal, subjective way. We can suddenly see her husband and Eleanor Roosevelt through Edna's eyes and we get to see parts of their personalities that have been previously shadowed. Ms. Gurewitsch continues to write of her love and admiration for her husband and Eleanor, but many of us are now looking at the relationship of these kindred souls much more closely. Perhaps more is being spotlighted than the author intends? A swell of questions is emerging from BARBARA, ANN and OPAL. If you've been having them, you are not alone. As ELLA and OPAL pointed out, Eleanor Roosevelt was known as the First Lady of the World and she certainly earned her designation with hard work and idealism. But she was also a very vulnerable and insecure woman.

Princess Diana of England was once quoted as saying that there were always THREE in her marriage to Prince Charles. Weren't David Gurewitsch, his wife, and Eleanor Roosevelt also part of three-sided marriage? Unlike Princess Diana, our author responded to her irregular marriage in a graceful and resilient manner, didn't she? I wonder why? Perhaps she was able to keep her equilibrium because she truly believed that her husband and Eleanor Roosevelt maintained a deep and emotional PLATONIC relationship? But, as BETTY pointed out the word "platonic" can encompass a wide range of intimate behavior. I wonder, was Edna right about Eleanor and David?

David Gurewitsch did not initially trouble his bride with details of the complexity of his feelings for Eleanor Roosevelt so, like Diana, Edna went to the altar unaware of her true situation. Do you feel that some of the delays in setting a marriage date and making a commitment may have stemmed from David's uncertainties about Eleanor's reactions?

I wonder if ANY public figure can survive as intense a subjective scrutiny as Eleanor is getting in this book and I absolutely continue to admire her accomplishments. To tell the truth, I haven't decided yet if we're looking at history as we read, or are we having a little dIg in the dirt? Perhaps a bit of each? I'm essentially reading the book along with everyone and haven't finished all of it, so I'd like to reserve my final judgement about historical value until the end.

What do YOU think?

Harriet

ANN, you brought up an interesting point about David USING the women in his life. Initially I thought that was not true, but now I begin to wonder. BARBARA pointed out the similarities between Martha Gellhorn and Eleanor Roosevelt. After reading ELLA's link about Gellhorn, I agree with you, BARBARA.

Both women were activists... accomplished, energetic, brilliant in their respective fields of interest. However there was one difference. Eleanor was always willing to BEND to David, to accept anything if it gave HIM comfort, to put him first, to forgive anything.

Martha Gellhorn, in contrast, always remained her own woman. She left Ernest Hemingway when he didn't respect her turf as a war correspondent, and she broke up with David Gurewitsch when he couldn't accept her need to travel and write. Perhaps Martha Gellhorn felt that David needed too heavy a dose of feminine adoration and deferral in his relationships?

What does that imply about the woman he chose to marry, Edna Gurewitsch? She's a remarkable woman also...a Vice-President of Silberman Galleries and an art dealer. Still in her twenties, she moves gracefully through New York City's intellectual world of the arts. Yet this witty, innovative woman is certainly flexible in accepting a third member in her marriage and her household, isn't she? How many of us would be so sweet tempered as to embrace another woman in our home, even if she is the much-older First Lady of the World?

Am I being too hard on David...what's your feeling?

Harriet

In our second week of discussion, I can’t help but remark on the change from an “older” woman loving David, to a “younger” woman loving David, - a three-sided love affair as HARRIET remarked. And he never abandoned either of them, perhaps enjoying a different love from each and needing, as ANN suggested, a mother figure in his life?

But, as BARBARA stated, both provided a dimension (however, you define it) that was needed in his life. Wasn’t he a lucky fellow to have two such articulate and accomplished women both giving him their undivided attention and love?

Why you all are shocking me with your suggestions of an illicit sexual affair between Eleanor and David!!! SHOCKING!! HAHAHA OPAL thinks it may have been possible! Would he still address her as Mrs. R. in letters or were there more intimate salutations in the letters that Anna burned? As BETTY said we can’t ever know!

Although Eleanor gives us a clue in her letter to David of Feb. 8, 1956 when she asks - “I’d love to hear you call me by my first name but you can’t. Perhaps it is my age.”

If it was a sexual affair, even a platonic love, certainly he would have called her Eleanor!!

Her loss of hearing was a difficult thing for her to cope with, I’m sure, and pointed out to David and others their difference in ages. Years ago, I read a book written by one of her daughters-in-law and she told of visits of Eleanor to their home; their problems in conversation, her critical comments – no doubt, hearing aids have improved much since her day; I have several friends and neighbors who think the latest digital aids are truly wonderful!

THANK YOU FOR SUCH GREAT POSTS! WE ENJOY AND APPRECIATE EVERYONE – YOU MAKE THE DISCUSSION A CAPTIVATING ONE TO READ

HARRIET – I’ll begin to answer your fascinating questions that you put in the heading tomorrow! Thanks!

Ella, the reason I think "Mrs. R." and "Mrs. Roosevelt" were pet names for Eleanor is that, given the years they had known each other and the close friendship, it would have been normal to use first names. Other possibilities are just as likely, but it's difficult for me to imagine that the salutation meant the usual....respect for someone older, respect for someone with whom no intimacy or friendship exists. I've heard of husbands and wives who refer to each other as "Mr. B" or "Mrs. K." But, who knows, you could be right.

-------------------------------------

Hahahahahaha...."illicit"? Ella? Two single people? Illicit?

One thing we haven't mentioned. He WAS her doctor. Doctors have seen us in otherwise embarrassing situations, that our friends haven't. So, in a professional role, he knew of her in ways he didn't with other friends. I don't know where I'm going with this. His professional role would be a reason to not be sexual, either ever, or after a short time as sexual.

Betty

Interesting comments on the sexual quality of the relationship. I don't know. But I agree with Betty that a relationship can be profoundly sexual without actual intercourse - the dreams, the fanatasies and the desires, the touching and the looks and the depth of shared experiences. Also I too am a little discomfited about the professional doctor/patient relationship as it is most unusual for even a friend to treat another friend , let alone someone so close. I didn't get the impression that David travelled with E. officially as her doctor, but rather as a close companion. I wonder if maybe distancing himself by calling Eleanor Mrs. R. was one way that David felt that he handled this.

ANN: Similarly to you I liked David less on my second reading of the book.

Barbara

Great posts, everyone! ELLA, thanks for bringing Eleanor's hearing problems into focus. BETTY and BARBARA, I also wonder how often David actually functioned as Eleanor's physician.

David Gurewitsch had a knack for keeping the women in his life unsettled. He pursued Edna in the most charming way after they initially met and HE was the one who brought up the issue of marriage after a relatively short time..."You and I have THIS much chance of marriage." he said, spreading apart his thumb and forefinger. Yet, within the week, he inquired of Edna, "May I bring a lady?" to one of her art exhibitions, leaving her baffled about his feelings and in the dark about the identity of the lady for several days.

Then how baffled was Eleanor Roosevelt, the lady who accompanied him? The two of them attended Edna's exhibition after David took her to the theater for her birthday. Was that a date, or two good friends spending the evening? Some months prior to this Eleanor had written to David telling him of her love and protesting his reserve with her. "In the meantime love me a little and show it if you can and remember...you are the most precious person in the world," she wrote.

Now David combined Eleanor's birthday celebration with an after-theater visit to another woman, a visit Edna sensed that Eleanor accepted reluctantly. It is Eleanor's birthday, but he buys a Flemish miniature at the exhibition...it surely must have been a valuable piece of art... and presents it as a gift to Edna. Did he do this in Eleanor's presence? Eleanor had so wanted David to show his love to HERSELF...what might that sensitive soul have felt?

I'm trying to get a handle on David's personality but it's a difficult job. The only things I'm quite sure of is that he accepts unreciprocated devotion without backing off on the relationship, and he's an expert at juggling people.

Harriet

Good point, BETTY! He was her doctor, but I agree with Barbara that he traveled with Eleanor as a friend, rather than as a doctor; they both were interested in health care of the needy, the children.

Oh, I'm sorry, ladies, I still love David who is quite the most handsome, mysterious-looking fellow I have seen or read about in a long time! I would have loved to have known him as Eleanor did, as a friend, but I could not have given him the opportunity that she did to meet the most influential people in every country they visited, which fact could very well have been one of the reasons he accompanied her.

BETTY - I did HAHAHA after the "illicit" remark; however, I think he was married for a few years after they met, wasn't it? Illegal? No? You did right to call me on that one!!!!

I thought, perhaps, you might enjoy a look at Val-Kill, the cottage she called home on the Hyde Park estate, actually I found two of them. Click here: HISTORY OF VAL-KILL

Better pictures and history of Val-Kill

In answer to question #2, Harriet, I believe David, realizing his age (54) was catching up with him, thought that Edna possibly might be his last romance, the last person he may be desirous of marrying, don't you think? He once commented on their age difference by saying "I can already see my horizon and yours is not yet in sight. Are you sure you understand what that means?" (there were more than 20 years age difference between them)

later, e.g.

In reading a little more in the book, I wondered if David's ability to speak and understand the Russian language was a liability or asset in visiting Russia. What do you think?

Amazing that he remembered the language having lived there with his grandparents for five years from the age of two to seven, isn't it?

Edna was so hurt that she was not invited on this first visit that David promised to discuss their marriage upon his return! Huh! And before he left on the trip, he told Edna that he had discussed their marriage with Eleanor and was encouraged by her.

It would have been the only way to keep David as a friend and companion, IMHO, and she was a wise lady.

I loved reading what they saw and did, I would love to do the same things today although many things have changed in both Germany and Russia since then.

For the better, don't you agree?

Thanks so much for the wonderful links to Val-Kill. A friend told me it is a wonderful place to visit. Although small and modest, you can "feel" the warmth and comfort of the home and it is easy to imagine Eleanor there.

After having just finished the AUTOBIOGRAPHY, I am a tweeny bit angry at Eleanor. She gave us so much but I wish she herself had told us the story of her and David.

Instead we are getting the story from Edna, who seems to have written the book with the main motivation of telling us how wonderful David was. Talk about sugar coating...............

I'm reserving final judgement, but at this point I don't much like what I see. I'm just glad that he brought happiness and pleasure to Eleanor's life and that she never saw him for his true self (a user).

Now on to other things......I was able to pull up a list of all of the published articles by Eleanor, what an astounding list, and all before computers. Many can be read on the FDR Library link, very interesting.

Are any of you located so that you have the opportunity to visit the Library at your pleasure? Wouldn't that be nice?

Opal Harriet

I particularly enjoyed the pictures of Val-Kill and the interior rooms, ELLA. Many scenes in the book take place at Val-Kill and it's fascinating to see the environment in which Eleanor relaxed and worked.

There may be more than one meaning in David's words to Eleanor in question #2. At the time that he wrote Eleanor those words, he was courting Edna, but the two had not yet set a date. I think Eleanor was gallantly rallying against her diminishing hope of a full relationship with David. Remember how she spruced herself up after David's divorce some years before?

I feel David may have been telling Eleanor indirectly that there was no hope for a marriage between themselves...that she could not derive any benefit from objections to David and Edna's marriage because he would not settle for anyone else, including Eleanor herself. The words in that letter may have been intended to end any of Eleanor's more romantic fantasies. It would not have been necessary for David to say unkind words to her face because Eleanor, once she fully understood what David wanted, would have felt obligated to help him achieve it.

Mrs. Gurewitsch wrote of Eleanor Roosevelt in Kindred Souls, p.101:

"The profound contrast between Mrs. Roosevelt's dependence upon receiving love and her considerable awareness of the power of her capabilities - the bottomless neediness that coexisted with her enormous strength - never ceases to amaze me."

I took a while to post this because I kept looking through our book to find the page where I had found the quote in question #2. If anyone runs into it, please let me know.

Harriet

OPAL, what a wonderful post. There's no question that you are a good friend to Eleanor!

My final judgement isn't in yet on David. I don't find him as totally admirable as I did initially, but he did provide solicitude, intimacy and a caring environment for Eleanor. She was not the most important person in his life and sadly, I think she wanted to be. For instance, David would initiate a phone call to his mother each morning, he seeking HER out. Eleanor asked permission and it was SHE who initiated a morning call to David after she arose each day. She put HERSELF in the position of supplicant. Eleanor was such a combination of strength and need.

Thanks for the information about the links. Here is the FDR Library for all of us to share. Twenty eight of Eleanor's My Day columns are included in the extensive PBS Link that ELLA provided in the heading above, but here is a direct link to only those columns themselves.

My Day

They do make wonderful reading, don't they?

Harriet

Got the book out of the library yesterday and I'm hurrying to catch up! It was all the fascinating posts in here that made me do it!

My initial (very initial) reaction about David was that I was tired reading of how handsome he was, how marvelous a doctor he was, how wonderful and compassionate he was about people! Sorry, but it got to me...enough already.

I'm curious (and will probably get more so) to read some other letters written by Eleanor to other friends... is she as effusive in her words to them as she is with David?

More to come as I catch up.

FranMMM

Yes, they do, and thank you HARRIET! As I started to post here I was looking intently at all the pictures in this section of the book and they point so dramatically the differences between the young, pretty, energetic-looking Edna and Eleanor.

I do feel so sorry for her knowing how much she wanted David for herself and she must have been very courageous to accept Edna so generously.

Yes, HARRIET, her neediness is so apparent in the letters and the phone call each day. She did derive satisfaction in all the work she accomplished and the recognition for her endeavors everywhere she went - thank goodness, this wonderful person had that!

David's journal of all he saw in Russia, particularly of the scientific advancements in medicine, is of great interest isn't it? In 1957 they were working on transplants! To think that at this time we thought them somewhat backward, isolated, dictated to by a huge bureaucracy - we did wake up when Sputnik went off didn't we?

Will return later to answer your question #3.

I'm so glad you have the book, FRAN! Please don't hesitate to post anytime.

I read a few of Eleanor Roosevelt's My Day columns today and also some of her writings which were part of the links in the FDR Library.

The woman who emerges in her written material is so lucid, strong, determined and politically aware. It gave me intense pleasure to read that material because Eleanor's letters, which are included in this book, tend to show the neediest side of her personality. As I read them it is easy to forget what an entirely admirable and tough woman Eleanor Roosevelt could be politically and personally.

Such a very large part of Eleanor Roosevelt was her public persona...It was larger than life, a magnificent creation that was admired the world over in her own time, and it continues to endure today. Mrs. Roosevelt once chided her friend, Henry Morganthau, when he mourned his lost fame after his government tenure was over. "Henry," said Eleanor, "do you think anyone would remember ME if I stopped working for six months?"

Well, history has provided the answer to that question in clear terms. Eleanor Roosevelt's fame does NOT diminish. She was a woman far ahead of her time. She was a strong willed, idealistic proponent of human rights, a worthy adversary for Nikita Khruschev. a valuable friend to David Ben Gurion, a warm friend of Queen Juliana of the Netherlands. Most of all, she directed her love and concern toward the common man of her generation and she used her power and influence to help the downtrodden.

Somewhere in our book I read a comment that I'll try to paraphrase. Eleanor Roosevelt never overcame the feelings of abandonment and loneliness that arose from her difficult childhood. However she SURMOUNTED them in a way that made her one of the most valuable and admired women of the twentieth century.

I find that I want to be careful to consciously remember all of this when I read her letters to David Gurewitsch. I think I'm going to make a point of reading one of her My Day columns every time I get swept away by the lonely, sad side of Eleanor. Those columns surely restore my perspective about the First Lady of the World.

Harriet

Harriett, I, too, enjoyed reading the My Day columns written by Eleanor...such a bright woman!! This book we're reading is a good reminder that we have emotional needs as well as accomplishment/achievement/work needs. Being a powerful political leader, recognized around the world, is wonderful, but there still are needs for intimacy....for private conversations with best buddies, physical touch, someone to fuss over her on birthdays, people with whom she can relax, with whom she can let down

I wonder.....since Eleanor continued to write her daily columns, continued to work as hard as someone 40 years old, gave of herself in so many directions, I wonder if her emotional needs could be viewed in relation to how hard she worked? I've often had the thought that the great leaders are probably in wonderful emotional health. You know, the old idea of loving yourself before you can love, give to others? Even though I, too, have felt sad in response to some of the letters we're reading from Eleanor to David, another way to think about those letters is how bold and assertive she was in expressing her feelings for him. No shy person wrote those letters. In continuing to express her feelings and ask for what she needed/wanted, she comes across as solidly healthy. Between the lines is the sentiment, "I'm worth loving."

Betty

Yes, Betty, you are definitely correct – no shy person wrote the letters to David, just a loving one, and one that was hoping for much more than she was given I think! Eleanor, all her life, had met adversity and disappointment with grace; think of the occasions – the early deaths of her family, her grandmother’s home, her shyness, feelings of insecurity and low self-esteem, her husband’s polio and later his infidelity. This is a woman who could overcome obstacles thrown in the path of her happiness, and finding David, having him for a loving companion for 11 years she had hoped, I believe, to keep him near until death do part. And then Edna, a beautiful and young lady captured his attention and love. The book is full of references to Eleanor's unhappiness at this time.

Did you notice when reading that David had his own bedroom at Val-Kill? (page 115) And did you notice that when Edna refused to marry him when he first asked Eleanor wrote a letter to “Darling” and met him at the airport and the loving letter he wrote in reply? But then she must have learned his plans to ask Edna again as Maureen noticed her “unaccountable behavior” – she was withdrawn. At the wedding she was restrained in her manner and later she was almost hostile to Edna when she visited alone.

What I am beginning to understand from Eleanor's letters are that she felt that she really had someone that she could pore out her feelings to and that person, David, was completely trustworthy. She could really write her true feelings for him without any fear of the letters being publicized. She felt very free to say whatever was truly in her heart. Whether she meant this romantically or not, really is not important.

Hi ANN! As to this statement: - " She could really write her true feelings for him without any fear of the letters being publicized" - what would she think if she knew how public they are today? I also wonder how her children feel about this book!

My sister read this as she has every book about Eleanor that has ever been written and she wishes she had never read it. She felt it made Eleanor seem a foolish old lady!

What are your thoughts?

I completed the book this morning, quote appropriate I guess for this Sept. 11 anniversary. I was left feeling, of course, extremely sad.

In addition, I feel confused. I read the words, and even accepted, Edna'a love and admiration for Eleanor. As for David, I still consider him a user, although maybe it was not something he was doing deliberately.

What is Edna's real purpose in writing the book?

Harriet

HELLO OPAL HARRIET! As said before, I saw just the end of an interview with Edna Gurevitsch on TV. I don't know what the purpose was in writing the book - perhaps to tell the world a story about Eleanor Roosevelt that the world did not know?

There are many incidents here that are not in other biographies. When we get to the end of her life I find that this book differs from one I have here on my desk titled Eleanor: The Years Alone. And, although that book, mentioned her friendship with the Gurewitsch's we did not know of the letters she wrote to David and the closeness to each other they both felt.

What do the rest of you think?

Opal has asked a very good question - what was the purpose of writing this book?

Why was the book written? To finish Eleanor's story. With documentation. Edna must have wanted to share with the world what only she and a very few others knew....that Eleanor had a great love for someone at the end of her life.

Betty

Thanks, Betty, I agree with that assessment - any other opinions?

Let's answer Harriet's questions in the Header; particularly those pertaining to Eleanor's children.

Do you know anything about her daughter and four sons? Read anything?

Here are the questions: What was the nature of Eleanor's feelings toward her children?

Do you feel that Eleanor's children were justified in their politely concealed hostility toward David? Why was there such poor communication between their mother and themselves?

I don't think this book gives very much information about Eleanor's children and definitely doesn't give us any information on the origin of their troubles with their mother. We have a scant sentence or two from Edna at the end (somewhere?) confirming the well known distance between mother and children.

I guess I feel I would have to know more about Eleanor's children to comment on their feelings about David. In general, Eleanor's intimacy with someone young enough to be her son might spark natural discomfort in children who were known to be not that close to their mother.

Anna's behavior toward Edna (reported by Edna) during Eleanor's last few weeks made me feel so sorry for Edna. David's role as "doctor" made it impossible to edge him away from Eleanor, something Anna must have wanted to do. But, these are Edna's words, Edna's view.

Have others read better sources about the children?

Betty

You soon find out that Eleanor and Franklin are the only Roosevelts that the Internet seems to want to acknowledge; the fact that they had children hardly seems to register. However, I did find a little about two of them:

http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/abouteleanor/q-and-a/glossary/roosevelt/ -

James was the most active of all the children in his father's political career. He was a Marine in WWII, later a Congressman from California, a businessman and author of two books about his parents. He had four wives, six children, died in 1991 of complications from a stroke.

http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/abouteleanor/q-and-a/glossary/roosevelt-elliott-son.htm

Elliott, a handsome son and Eleanor's favorite, exploited his parents' name for his own gain, which eventually led to the rupture between mother and son. Married five time, father of four children, he died of congestive heart failure in 1990.

Those two seem to be from the same site, but I cannot find the other children - Anna Eleanor, John and Franklin.

There is a wonderful project going on at George Washington University - take a look here: http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/

It is about time some University recognized her contributions to all of us. And what a lovely picture of Eleanor! I would love to take her hair and fluff it up a bit, although that was the style of the day.

WHERE HAS EVERYBODY GONE? ARE YOU LURKING? DO POST SOMETHING SO I WILL KNOW YOU ARE ALIVE AND KICKING!

Harriet is having computer problems or she would be here and in her absence I will post what the book (Edna) states about the children:

"While they were family and were friends, one somehow sensed when in their company that the two (here Edna is speaking of Anna) lacked intimacy. There was perhaps too much effort being made to speak affectionately. I had the impression that they were almost too polite with each other. Mother and daughter tried to be close, yet Mrs. Roosevelt's correspondence with Anna over the years suggests that they never quite succeeded."

I know from reading other books about Eleanor that her mother-in-law, Sara Delano, interfered tremendously in bringing up the children and later Eleanor was disappointed at her sons' lack of initiative and their attitude. As to Anna, Eleanor never forgave her for her knowledge and her facilitation of her father's affair with Lucy Mercer. How much that hurt to know that your daughter kept that from you and approved of it.

Of course, the fact that their mother was so enamored of David and later, Edna, did not help the relationship between mother and children.

On page 146 Edna is very frank in stating that David could do no wrong in Eleanor's opinion; whereas she could be very critical of her children and they resented that. David could do not wrong, she states, he had nothing to prove.

What would your feelings have been in Eleanor's place? Is there anything she could have done to improve the situation?

Betty in our local mental health clinic there is a brochure about bi polar affective disorder. In this brochure it states that Teddy Roosevelt suffered from this disorder. This would account for some of the not so rational things which happened in his personal life. There are a number of famous politicians who are named in this same brochure as are artists and musicians. When I recount this I am not saying these men are any the less for having this disorder. Have you ever heard this fact before? If this was so Eleanor would have had times in her marriage which were pretty rough.

Carolyn

PS I don't have this book but I have been lurking and found the discussion fascinating.

Carolyn...you wrote of Teddy Roosevelt. Did you mean to write Franklin, to whom Eleanor was married? But, no, I haven't read of either Teddy or Franklin D. Roosevelt having bi-polar disorder.

Ella, oh, I had no idea that Anna knew of Lucy or approved, etc. I would have been deeply hurt, in Eleanor's shoes, possibly beyond thought of repair of relationship with Anna. Franklin was a lousy husband in so many ways, beginning with not supporting his wife against his mother, Sara. Eleanor and the kids didn't have a chance at "normal."

Betty

Your 'urgent' email received and responded to. Hope I am forgiven. However I have read every word since I last posted and felt that everyone had covered the points quite nicely.

I bellieve that it was characteristic behaviour of David not to come straight out and tell Edna about his relationship with E.R. He comes across to me as a person who gave very careful consideration to every step he took in life, even to the point of being calculating and manipulative. I believe he would have planned the circumstances around both of these relationships in a way that was conducive to maintaining the status quo with all three and that he would not have jepordised his relationship with E.R. nor would he have wanted anything to interfere with his relationship with Edna. So he handled the whole 'telling' towards this outcome. I think Edna was long suffering in her tolerance and acceptance of David and E.R. Or was she trying to be objective in her writing? Or again was there just a denial of the depth of that relationship?

About E.R's determination to hostess the wedding of Edna and David: again I think this was quite in character with E.R. She was a very controlling lady who expected her wishes to be obeyed. There is one incident that I can recall where she marshalled her guests into cars regarless of their wishes. To quote an Rumpole of the Bailey - "she who must be obeyed". I also think that she was planting herself very firmly into this relationship. Ifound this need to control at odds with here feelings of low self esteem and humility.

bye for now

Barbara

Betty I may be confused here sorry. I have hunted for the booklet which I brought home but I can find everything else except that one. The information was in quite a detailed booklet on the disorder put out by one of the Universities and a group of Clinical Psychologists. I cannot say from memory which one it was now. Disregard my previous post!

Carolyn

Welcome, KIWI LADY!!

Even if you don't have the book, please join us when you have a comment, We love lurkers.

I too wonder how Eleanor would have reacted to this book. Initially, when she mentioned David in letters to her children, or made references to shared travels in various writings, she referred to him in a formal sense. He was always Dr. Gurewitsch and mentioned only briefly and impersonally. That suggests to me that Mrs. R preferred her private life to REMAIN private?

David certainly did not publicize her letters. In fact, I consider his unwillingness to tell his future wife the nature of his relationship with Eleanor to assume a NEW meaning in this context...possibly he hoped to protect Eleanor from scandal and assumed that the less Edna knew, the less she could misinterpret or confide to her own family? Of course after his marriage the three were together so much of the time that Edna soon understood what had never been spoken. I wonder how David would have felt about his wife's book?

I agree with ELLA's opinion about the children. Mrs. R always felt guilty about her children. She felt that she had to make up to them for the distance and coolness of their childhood. Yet, I felt that they were possibly SO much a part of her that she could not easily accept the same mistakes from them that she might from a dear friend and she felt the need to "build their character" rather than sympathize with them? Her children were her standard bearers for the Roosevelt name. They bore her blood...they carried the responsibility for the lineage. Can it be that when she dealt with her own child, she felt too personally involved? A heavy burden indeed for the children of two illustrious parents!

Edna wrote on p. 146:

The competitive Roosevelts were jealous of the approval and attention that their mother lavished on David, especially in light of her often-critical attitude toward them. They were mindful of their mother's permissiveness toward him and a few others of her "adopted family." They might have accepted what they viewed as their mother's inability to be freer and more intimate with them had they not seen her show so effortlessly to her small, chosen circle, especially to David, the kind of tenderness denied to them.

BARBARA, when I read about David and Edna's wedding in Eleanor's apartment, thoughts of Sara Delano Roosevelt instantly came into my mind. Don't you all think that was something that SHE might have done? She acted in a controlling way, but I feel that her goal with David was the same as her mother-in-law's had been with Franklin. She was terrified that she would lose David and she tried to bind him to her.

Eleanor acted far more honorably toward Edna than Sara Delano Roosevelt had done to the young bride that Eleanor once was. Eleanor had unsuccessfully tried to earn the love of Franklin's mama. Now Eleanor was probably determined to avoid her mother-in-law's mistakes? She set out to EXPAND her relationship and include Edna in her love for David. Of course there was a healthy dose of self interest in her behavior also. She hoped that her course of behavior would keep David close to her. She was successful in both ventures.

Or, it just occurs to me, WAS SHE? If Edna had no resentments toward Eleanor, would she really have written this book? A new thought...

I wonder...

Harriet

Our library does not have Kindred Souls but I have ordered books on the marriage of Franklin and Theodore and letters between mother and daughter. I may be able to contribute a little from these books. Also there is a book The years alone which I have ordered also which is the years of Eleanors widowhood - wonder if this will mention her friendship with David. I should have them on Monday your time.

Carolyn

"I wonder how David would have felt about his wife's book?" Harriet asked. And Edna also included quotes from his journal didn't she, hmmmm. I don't know, we would have to study that a bit, all his comments, his love of privacy, etc.

How did his daughter, Grania, feel about it?

I can understand a bit of why Edna might have resented Eleanor; did she get to plan her own wedding? It's easy for her to excuse this by saying she never cared for ceremony or that she was not in the mood to dwell on the curiousness of the arrangement that he and Eleanor had arranged. But.........

Did she ever wish she were with the younger people who were having a good time (late-night high hilarity) at Val-Kill, when she and David sat among the older folk, the do-gooders, the Democrats and talked quietly.

But we can have no doubt that her children were jealous of her love and attention given to David; he was not her responsibility, she had no part in raising him, she was not critical - just the opposite - she loved him and everything he did.

It's easy as a mother to be critical of your own, isn't it? I find myself "holding my tongue" at times, and at others, wishing I had! You have done that since they were youngsers, correcting them, teaching them and it is hard to stop when they are adults.

Did Edna write this book to air the situation for her own sake - for her daughter? Who knows!

So many unanswered questions!

I have learned to hold my tongue regarding the children unless I am asked to put my spoke in. It was a hard thing to take on board that I am not responsible for my adult childrens decisions! Ironically it was after counselling for my benefit that I took on board this important lesson!

I have a young friend who is motherless and has a young family. I am her confidante but my kids come first when there is a need. I can understand Eleanors childrens feelings. My parents always put their friends first and it hurt. I guess this is how Eleanors children felt - hurt and abandoned.

Carolyn

My goodness, Carolyn (kiwi lady)...those books certainly WILL be helpful. I would be very interested in what you learn. I hope you'll pass on some of your information. I was touched by your personal comment in your last post.

In her introduction to KINDRED SOULS, Ms. Gurewitsch mentions that Joseph Lash had outlined some of the relationship between David and Eleanor in his second volume of ELEANOR: THE YEARS ALONE. It would be fascinating to know the tone of his remarks about the two. I understand that Lash also included some of the letters between Eleanor and David in another of the books he authored: A WORLD OF LOVE: ELEANOR AND HER FRIENDS, 1943 - 1962. I wonder which letters he used and how he commented on them?

By the time Edna undertook to write this book in 2001, all of Eleanor's children were deceased. Ms. Gurewitsch gratefully acknowledged the help of two of Eleanor Roosevelt's grandchildren in discussing their memories of Eleanor with her. She said that David's daughter, Grania, also shared memories of her times in the company of Mrs. R. However there are NO indications that any of Eleanor's many other grandchildren cooperated in the book. Can there be any unspoken implications in their absence?

As ELLA pointed out, so many unanswered questions!

Harriet

I think Edna mustered a great deal of courage to write this book. A period of twenty years elapsed from the time the notion of writng 'a book' was suggested to her and then it took her fourteen years to write it, I believe that she must had had some emotional difficulty in the writing. As a matter of fact, I think somewhere in the introductions this is mentioned.

Regarding the Campobello play, I always thought that the casting of Greer Garson, one of the most beautiful women of her time, would have been a slight to E.R., a plain and ungainly old woman. There would have been other actresses who could have filled the part bringing out the inner beauty of E.R. and who would not have contrasted so much in appearance. Had I been Eleanor, I would have been angry at this insensitivity - and she probably was.

Barbara

Katherine Hepburn? She was not super pretty but had inner strength and character which shone out of her face.

Carolyn

Another very good book about Theodore Roosevelt, ER's first cousin, is by David Mc Cullough. Title--Mornings on Horseback. It does a good job of explaining Eleanor's first few years, living with the Roosevelts after her mother died and her father went off to drink himself to death. Never mentions Theodore having a bi-polar dysfunction. But, I wouldn't be too surprised if they told me that Ellie(ER's father) had that or epilepsy. Wonder where that story came from. I think it must have been Ellie who had that problem or was thought to. There is such a thing involved with seizure problems named Migraine Seizures and maybe that was his problem.
Yes, ER wanted to continue to have control over David and her relationship and to have the wedding in her apartment kept her in the picture. Sort of like her MIL-Sara Delano Roosevelt.

I guess no one wants to let their children go forever but its one of those bumps in life's road to perdition.

I have become a bit confused about Theodore R. and his significance in E.R's life. On the family tree that I have he appears to be E.R.'s uncle, the brother of E.R.'s father.

E.R's father was commited to a Mental Asylum when she was eight years old, died of alcoholism (maybe some depressive factor here) when she was ten. Then I thought for the next five years until she went to school in England, she was brought up by her grandmother. So as there has been quite a bit of discussion about Theodore, I am seeking some details about his significance for Eleanor.

What thought provoking points, everyone.

OPAL HARRIET, can you help us out with anything of Eleanor's relationship with her Uncle Ted? Did the autobiography that you read cover that?

BARBARA, I went into the PBS link that ELLA provided and read part of the transcript of the American Experience. Within the Roosevelt clan, family members saw themselves as either a 'Teddy Roosevelt' Roosevelt or a 'Hyde Park' Roosevelt. Eleanor definitely considered herself to be a 'Teddy Roosevelt' Roosevelt and she shared certain traits from that side of the family. The following from the transcript of the production on Eleanor Roosevelt may shed some light on what that meant.

Boisterous and energetic, "Uncle Ted" always called Eleanor his favorite niece. She recalled her childhood visits with him as terrifying. "He was horrified that I didn’t know how to swim." she said. "So he thought he’d teach me as he taught all his own children, and he threw me in. And I sank rapidly to the bottom. Then he fished me out and lectured me on being frightened." Uncle Ted drove home the Roosevelt rule: never show fear. And like all Roosevelt children, Eleanor was taught a strong sense of social responsibility. Eleanor Roosevelt's niece related, "They accepted the servants and the big house and their position in society. But part of that also was that you owed something back to people less fortunate than yourself." Eleanor took this sense of duty seriously. Twice a week she rode the public trolley downtown to the grimy, teeming slums of the Lower East Side. There, at the University Settlement House, she did volunteer work with young immigrants, helping them adapt to life in America. She thought of her work as the "highlight" of her week.

I wonder how prolonged or frequent Eleanor's childhood visits were in Uncle Ted's household?

ANN, I read a book by Elliot Roosevelt, AN UNTOLD STORY, in which he claimed that his grandfather, Eleanor's beloved father, had suffered from a brain tumor, but I haven't read that theory anywhere else. Elliot was annoyed at his mother for encouraging the public belief that her father was alcoholic. Yet the father's alcoholism and mental problems seem to be the accepted judgement of history.

Moreover, as I skimmed AN UNTOLD STORY this evening, I see innuendoes that Eleanor had overexerted herself physically during the summer she was pregnant with Elliot in an attempt to abort herself. Elliot says outright that Eleanor had been ignorant of the physical side of marriage as a young woman, and that the only way she knew to avoid another pregnancy was through overexertion or abstinence. So, another innuendo here was that Eleanor, in an attempt to avoid pregnancy, deprived Franklin sexually and therefore bore responsibility for her husband's infidelities.

Not so nice from Eleanor's favorite son! His stories about his father are much kinder, and it never seems to occur to Elliot that if his mother was sexually ignorant, perhaps his father had failed to enlighten her? This book seems to point up the complexity of the relations between Eleanor and at least one of her sons.

Isn't it interesting that she seemed to have an easier time getting on with her grandchildren than her children?

Harriet

As I read KINDRED SOULS I noticed that a great deal of the book is about the hearts and minds of people. I feel that the book lends itself to subjective interpretation by the reader as we try to figure out what made a woman as complicated and unique as Eleanor Roosevelt tick. Her particular combinations of strength and vulnerability in her private life contributed to the ways she solved her personal and family problems.

BARBARA, I thought you made an astute observation about Eleanor's response to SUNRISE AT CAMPOBELLO. According to our book, Eleanor had answered questions and supplied information to the writers and producers. She cooperated because her children would share in the royalties from the drama. Yet she sat "impassively" through the performance of the play and rushed out during the final bows of the cast. She privately claimed she felt "no connection" to her stage self? Something must have displeased her...but what?

There are so many possible questions and answers...because there were so many shadowed areas of Eleanor's private life. The play later became a movie which I saw many years ago. I THINK I remember that the drama gave a sympathetic picture of Eleanor and Franklin's home life and showed the two of them communicating lovingly.

Could that have also been a source of anguish to her? Did she see an alternate universe that had never been reality on the stage...a beautiful wife, valued and loved by a husband who depended on her strength to get him through a personal illness? Could it have torn her up to see her fantasies on the stage?

Did Franklin and Eleanor really lead separate lives that summer on Campobello? Did Franklin turn to Eleanor or his mama when he became ill? I guess we'll never know, but Eleanor's reaction to seeing the play made me feel that SOMETHING was not quite right in the portrayal that she herself had authorized.

What's YOUR slant on Eleanor's behavior?

Harriet

Harriet, I have seen a made for TV movie about Franklin and Eleanor but can't remember the stars. It seemed to center on FDR's getting polio in the early 20's? I can see the lady who played but just can't come up with a name.

I haven't yet read the Campobello site but I wonder that Eleanor, in watching the play and marching out at the end, might have felt that it wasn't quite true but she had done her duty to the writers which was going to help her (always in trouble or broke) children which if I understand was why she agreed to this play.

I think I saw such a TV movie also, ANN. Was the female lead Jane Alexander? Now I can't recall the actor who played FDR. .. possibly Edward Hermann? I believe there was more than one biopic done on Eleanor and FDR. The TV version began on the funeral train carrying FDR after his death and consisted of Eleanor's memories as she accompanied him home?

By the time that biopic reached TV, Eleanor was deceased and I think FDR's infidelities with Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd may have been known?. I was kind of surprised to learn that such a problem could exist after Franklin contracted polio.

I would love to find a rental version of the Ralph Bellamy/Greer Garson movie and rewatch it while I imagine how Eleanor perceived it. I remember both movies as being very enjoyable.

Harriet

I think I just found a link for the TV biopic we were talking about, ANN. I hope it's the one you had in mind.

I don't see any credits listed for the character of Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd, so I wonder if the four hour mini-series dealt with that aspect of the marriage?

Eleanor and Franklin

Harriet

Whoa - or WOW! HARRIET!!!

You opened up a BIG, BIG can of worms there in one of your posts! I rapidly made notes of them to discuss so if I don't get it all right, then correct me, but I was amazed at some of the statements!!! First I've never heard anything of ER's attempted abortion (and by herself!)! And this from a book by her son!!! Who else would have known of this? Possibly her best friends - a woman usually confides in someone or we can hope that she had someone to confide in!!!

THE POOR THING! Women had it so difficult in those days - denied any knowledge of sex, any methods of birth control, what was a woman to do who didn't want a large family?????

And how did the husband react when his wife denied him "marital rights?" He found a mistress, didn't he? Or he left home.

And Elliott, in this book you referred to, intimated that perhaps his mother deserved what she got from the marriage? Is that true? If so, how many other times in history has this accusation been made - we couldn't count them all!!!

BETTY should be here and helping us in this discussion!

Just what was a woman to do?? An ignorant woman???

I don't know, I'm sure my mother didn't know and became a physical and mental wreck having six children in the depression, the poor thing! Men, of course, have only one thing on their minds - well, most men!!!

Do you suppose that Eleanor ever learned to swim? hahahaha

In one of the several books I've read over the years about ER she was taught that because of her social position she should help others less fortunate. She also felt that because she was so very plain looking, that to serve others would bring some compensation in her life for lack of beauty.

I'm at my daughter's house and when I'm on the computer her phone is being used, so I cannot linger.

THANKS TO ALL FOR POSTING - LOVE TO READ THEM!

Hope others come in to comment. What did your mother do to prevent children? What did you do? Quite frankly, I went to a OB/GYN doctor and got advice and used it - hahaha - ending with two children.

We could do that, our mothers could not.

While not Catholic myself, my best girlfiend in high school was and we talked about everything as young girls do. I once asked her how many children she was contemplating and she said two. How could you stop there, I asked, as it is against your religion. And she said I'll give you the same answer my mother told me (who had stopped at three). When the Pope agrees to raise and educate my children then I will have twelve; meantime I will have two. She had two!

I hope I'm not getting into religion here, that is not my intent! Oh, heavens no, it's a condemnation of those who would keep women ignorant, pregnant and in the kitchen.

Thanks for the tute. Sorry, I will be more discriminating with my questions in future. VBG

Barbara

This story is simply amazing. The questions are extremely interesting and the posts very educational. Thanks to everyone who has posted links.

I wish I had started this study of Eleanor many years ago. The amount of available material is so overwhelming.

My Mom is gone and we all miss her so much. She was a wealth of information about most all subjects, especially those of human interest.

I wonder how much connected the everyday housewife felt to Eleanor? My Mom was a nurse and an avid reader. I never heard her talk about reading Eleanor's articles. I wish I could ask her about this since she was so interested in all things political and beyond her everyday world.

I was astounded to read that the home owner was so rude to Eleanor, as to turn her back on her. Can you imagine that happening, even today?

So many unanswered questions.

Opal Harriet

Hi, OPAL HARRIET. I agree. Doesn't this book provide a unique look at Eleanor Roosevelt?

There was a certain segment of Old Guard, wealthy, American aristocracy that regarded FDR as "That Man" and despised him for his administrative policies and for encouraging laws that went against Old Money interests. Some of them lived in upstate New York and had known Eleanor and Franklin since childhood. When Eleanor made a courtesy call with Edna at a Hudson River neighbor's engagement party, she knew she was going into an unfriendly environment. Those old neighbors called her by her first name and treated her like a pariah. I guess she anticipated that frosty welcome because she didn't plan on staying more than a few minutes.

Likewise, when the owner of a prospective townhouse turned her back on Eleanor, Eleanor knew she should look for a home purchase elsewhere. The Old Money families continued to dislike the Roosevelts for many years afterwards. I do agree that the home owner behaved shockingly, but I'm also sure it was no surprise to Eleanor.

Oh my, BARBARA. Did I sound like I was doing a tutorial? I'm sorry...I didn't know the answer to your question and was glad to try to find some answers for both of us. Please feel free to question, challenge, discuss, discourse...whatever. I think that those are the things that make a discussion fun. I welcome your participation and very much enjoy any comments that you and everyone else here posts.

It's time for my cuppa coffee... see you later, all.

Harriet

This rainy (WE FINALLY GOT RAIN IN OHIO) Sunday morning I'm at my daughter's condo in another city, but at home on my computer I have a clickable to the Roosevelt home on Campobello Island that I wanted to show you as a indication of the Roosevelt money. Although they were not considered the wealthiest of the families in America, they were very comfortable and, as Harriet stated, among the old American aristocracy.

Their home in the Hudson River Valley is among other wealthy old elite family homes. My husband and I were going to take an Elderhostel trip there this year, but am afraid his health will not permit it - we put it off too long.

BARBARA - do you have Elderhostel trips in Australia? Or something similar? This organization was started in 1975 as an inexpensive and educational program for senior citizens to travel and learn. At first the seniors would live in college dormitories (off season for students some of the time; others not) and professors would teach. The early programs held to that format, but they soon learned that seniors did not like sharing baths, bunk beds and other amenities (hahaha) as young college students do; consequently they are now in motels with conference rooms and the price has gone up. But still they are a bargain - www.elderhostel.org (more information there)

WE HAVE NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING TODAY. Shall we attempt to answer No. One now?

Do you find Mrs. Roosevelt dowdy? How would you describe her from the pictures in the book at this age?

Harriet, I've been meaning to thank you for the clickables to the movies and when I get home I'm going to do a search for movies on Eleanor and Franklin at my Library. Old movies we can get easily and I want to see them all. Thanks!

Harriet, I, too went looking for that biopic and found the same site that you did. I liked that miniseries. Thanks anyway! Of course, as you could see, they wanted us to spend $17.99 on the VHS. I think I will pass and check out the library myself. Ella and I will be in contention as to who gets it first. Now, I was planning on going to the library this afternoon as my hubby asked me to find a good audio tape for him to listen to on his way to work.
Yes, I find Eleanor dowdy and wonder how much David was interested in persuing their more intimate relationship.
I was surprised at the Russian government being so gracious to ER. During the Cold War, no less.
I thought that the three of them had become a stay together group but certainly money wasn't any problem so what was the point?
I too have heard of ER being a lesbian but really it doesn't come into play with this story. Who knows? She seemed to get crushes on friends, for a long time, in her whole lifetime.

Yes, two women living together, particularly raising children together, without a doubt, might make some people pause amd consider what their lifestyle might be but I think men would raise a question mark also.

It pains me to say it, but Eleanor didn't do as much as she might have for her appearance. I wonder why she never got braces for her teeth? I don't know if orthodontia or crowns existed when she was a young girl, but they certainly did in the 1930's and 1940's. There's no doubt that she could have afforded them. Perhaps she felt reluctant about cosmetic changes? If so, why?

I have heard Eleanor described as having a special radiance of her own that came from a personality with intelligence, vitality and good will. I'm sure that she was probably more vital and attractive in person for that reason. I see that she often bought couturier clothes and designer hats and had her hair done in a salon, but the overall impression in her photographs makes that hard to recognize. Maybe learning how to use make up would have helped...but somehow, I can't imagine Eleanor Roosevelt taking the time to put on cosmetics. To tell the truth, I can't imagine Eleanor's face with a lot of make-up.

ELLA, do you feel Edna was giving her a suble barb in that footnote? I keep flip-flopping back and forth about how Edna really feels about Mrs. R. Having read ahead in the book, today I feel that Edna genuinely liked her, but who knows, by tomorrow I might change my mind again. It's hard to figure out.

Harriet

ELLA, I wish you and ANN luck finding those movies. I'm going to look for them myself. It's been a while since I saw them and this book has revived my interest in Eleanor and the whole Roosevelt family.

Some old business left over from last week: I brought up Elliot Roosevelt's book, AN UNTOLD STORY, in a recent post because I meant to point out how Eleanor's son picked away at his mother's reputation through innuendo and implication. It was not my intention to give absolute credence to his views, because as I read the book I thought I could detect a slant that was not always tender or affectionate toward his mother. I thought that Elliot's willingness to put those personal things into print showed the difficulties of the mother/son relationship between them and that was the context that interested me most for our discussion.

I'll offer a sample of Elliot's style, so you all can understand where I got the "abortion" idea and judge its accuracy for yourself.

"Her (Eleanor's) morbid mood continued when she discovered that once more she had conceived. "Certainly no one could have behaved more foolishly than I did practically up to the time of (the infant) Elliot's arrival," she said "and I should have known better." The meaning of that oblique reference is unfathomable. Did she expose herself unnecessarily to physical exertions which she thought could be harmful to her health? Is there a hint that she was tired of bearing children in such swift succession? If that were true, she knew of only one recourse. When Sis (Eleanor's eldest daughter) was a young woman, Mother confided to her that she had gone into marriage totally ignorant of any method of contraception whatsoever." p 52.

You can see that Elliot Roosevelt never used the word "abortion" in relation to his own birth, but I felt he poked and intimated around it without ever actually committing himself. I came to the conclusion that I believe he wanted his reader to draw, and then I passed it on to all of you. I wanted to clarify my source information more accurately, because it's certainly possible that some readers might not agree with my conclusions if they approach his book for themselves.

I felt that his whole book was filled with episodic self pity, starting with the assumption that his own birth was unwanted by his mother. Elliot also justified his father's infidelity in a similar way...never directly, but through inference and innuendo.

"She (Eleanor) went into marriage with exactly the same feelings that Granny expressed: Sex was a wife's duty, never a source of joy or, as it can be at its best, of ecstasy. She had, in her own words, "an almost exaggerated idea of the necessity of keeping all of one's desires under complete subjugation." That thought would have been completely alien to Father, who was beginning to develop a lusty love of life in all its rich variety. p 40.

There was more about Mother and Father and their sex lives in a few other pages of the book. Anyhow, I do feel that I arrived at the conclusions that Elliot Roosevelt was guiding his reader towards, even though he was not willing to write them directly and, since I passed them on to all of you, I felt it was the fair and responsible thing to clarify them.

I thought that Elliot had a knack for writing controversial things, particularly about Eleanor, in his book. Eleanor surely must have had her hands full getting along with him in her lifetime?

Harriet

I was fascinated by the anecdote about Edna and her luncheon visit to Mme. Vienot, the Parisian widow of one of David's old friends. Apparently Eleanor had not been invited to the luncheon and she felt hurt and left out, even though she did not get along with Mme. Vienot. The way in which Edna handled it marked a new step upward in her relationship with Eleanor. Mrs. R responded by telling her verbally, "I love you, not only because of David. I love you for yourself." (p. 166)

I keep on wondering...what did that incident indicate about Eleanor Roosevelt? What was it that she hoped for in her relationship with her beloved David's wife? As she shared a suite with David and Edna in a Paris hotel, did her mind go back into the past, to the times that her own mother-in-law had stayed so very close to Franklin and, in so doing, had distressed the young wife she once was?

Was Edna a more flexible and loving surrogate daughter-in-law than Eleanor herself had been to Sara Delano Roosevelt? What made the affection possible in her relationship with Eleanor? Unlike Sara Delano Roosevelt, had Eleanor learned how to keep her distance at the same time that she stayed close? Like her own mother-in-law, Eleanor needed a great deal of proximity, both physical and emotional, to the "son of her heart" that David became. She chose to live in close quarters with Edna and David over sharing living quarters with any of her own children.

Do any of you have any opinions about the dynamics of this unusual relationship?

Harriet

Golly Harriet that post took me back.

My mother never wanted the last two of her children. I was 7 when the first was conceived, I was intelligent and had big ears. My mother did her utmost to miscarry so I don't think Eleanor was any different to many women before the days where a legal termination could be purchased. This is not a statement that I agree with abortion on demand.

It must have been terribly hurtful to Eleanor's children (when the norm was often that the widowed mother would live with or very near one of her offspring) that she chose not to. These days the kids would shudder at the thought of Mum coming to live with them or even next door to them!

I just think the son was acting out his hurt. Imagine if your mother preferred an outsider to her own child. I think it would hurt a lot. No matter how old we are I think we all need validation by our parents.

Carolyn

PS This book sounds so good I am mad I can't get hold of it!

Carolyn

CAROLYN, what a perceptive, insightful comment! "No matter how old we are I think we all need validation by our parents. "

I think that was true for me. Whenever I visited my mother, even when I was in my forties, I often found myself reverting back in my memories to my younger self.

Not too many years ago I got a Mother's Day card from my son who was in his thirties. It showed a small boy standing on his head, and the blurb said, "LOOK AT ME, MOM! ARE YOU WATCHING? SEE HOW GOOD I AM?" I laughed, but I was very moved by it.

Later my son and I drifted into a meaningful and loving conversation about the child that lingers in all of us, regardless of our age. I sometimes still think of that conversation with emotion.

Thank you for your observation.

Harriet

HARRIET - What great questions you have given us to think upon as we read the next few chapters of the book, and thanks so much for the quotes from Elliot's book.

Don't you think that Elliot was attempting to provoke scandalous statements in order to sell his book? Trying very hard to come up with reasonable innuendoes for his readers to speculate upon? Shame on him, Shame! When was this book published? Hopefully, OH CERTAINLY, after Eleanor's death!!!

To think that a son would make those statements about his mother! And thoughts of his mother and father's sex lives! How Eleanor would have hated that and particularly the comparison of her ideas about sex and his father's lusty love of life.

His father's infidelities is more to the point! And how many times was Elliot married attempting to find that perfect ecstasy?

"She (Eleanor) went into marriage with exactly the same feelings that Granny expressed: Sex was a wife's duty, never a source of joy or, as it can be at its best, of ecstasy."

None of the boys were successful in their marriages as I recall from other books; and neither were they successful in their careers, which was a source of anxiety and concern for Eleanor; she was constantly being asked for financial help.

There is much in the book written by Josph Lash titled "Eleanor, The Years Alone" about the children, but it is too lengthy to discuss here.

Let's talk about Eleanor's appearance in her "housedresses" as I call them. Of course, we all know, as did she, that she was not a beauty! Nevertheless, she could have done more for herself in my opinion and she did try at one point after David's divorce was final.

I wonder if the picture of her "on the move" with the suitcase in her hand could have been around that time. She looks slim, don't you think?

Can you imagine her that slim with a lovely long dress on and heels? They don't have to be high heels but those terrible looking mannish shoes she wears are dreadful.

STOP, STOP, ANN! Let's take one question at a time PLEASE! Let others have a chance to answer one before we move on. We don't need to be in a hurry do we?

WE WANT TO HEAR YOUR OPINIONS - BE FRANK!

later, eg

I guess I may be the odd ball here. Personally I don't think it matters if a woman chooses her own style of clothing or chooses not to wear makeup as long as the clothes are clean, she smells good and her hair is tidy no matter what style she chooses. Eleanor had a frank pleasant face I think. I wonder if she had lovely skin too? Princess Anne looks a lot better in person than she does in magazines and newspapers. She has lovely skin and beautiful blue eyes. She looks attractive in person.

Carolyn

Chances are, if we were in a discussion of Churchill, it wouldn't occur to us to wonder about his appearance and if he could have paid more attention to looking better.

Thank goodness for Eleanor Roosevelt as a role model of a powerful woman whose concern for humanity touched lives deeply all around the world.

Betty

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????????Ella, are saying that am I answering the questions too fast??

Ella,I was able to get the miniseries or at least to reserve it. The metro system has, I believe, 7 copies of it. If you can't get it, just let me know and I will let you have my copy or maybe we should have a watching party some afternoon. Tea and Eleanor?

Oh, I'm jealous! That sounds sooo nice. Wish I could come too.

I tried my public library yesterday and they didn't own either of the Eleanor movies. You guys must have a marvelous library system.

Harriet

Hi BETTY and CAROLYN! Now I'm the oddball one because I think Eleanor, as disciplined as she was in everything else she did, could have kept herself much nicer - I don't think the word "neat" or "clean" is at all a compliment! Of course, Churchill was always too heavy, it's impossible not to notice people when they are in the news and are influential people.

All our first ladies in recent times have managed to stay fairly slim to their credit and be a role model for many ladies our age. It's good for our health and well-being, self-esteem, etc. It would have helped Eleanor. I saw Betty Ford on TV the other day, and although she looks old, one can't help all the wrinkles, posture, etc. she's as slim as ever, and looking good.

YES, ANN! You are going too fast - ideally, we like to take a day at least on each question in the header and allow everyone to comment and then we can each talk about other's opinions. As I just did with Betty and Carolyn.

If you answer them all at once it's not a conversation, just a quiz! Hahaha who wants to take quizzes!

Yes, I do want to see the mini-series, I'll call you and get it from you. I think we have a week on videos don't we?

All through the book the world-wide attention given to Eleanor Roosevelt is so warm and friendly, even by Russia during the Cold War, that, of course, we know that she was beloved for her own sake, not just as the widow of FDR. As an example of how she was perceived, how many people could have just invited the Soviet cultural attaché to the United Nations to a Saturday lunch at her apartment?

The three of them, Eleanor, David and Edna, arrive in Moscow where these New Yorkers found the “emptiness of the broad Moscow thoroughfares” eerie; they stayed at the National Hotel. Here is a clickable for a look at that same hotel today: NATIONAL HOTEL

Although lovely and newly restored, wouldn’t you have liked to have seen it through the eyes of this trio in Russia?

Thanks for the link to the National Hotel, ELLA.

I went back into our book and reread the segment about Eleanor, David, and Edna's arrival in Moscow. It isn't clear to me whether the Russian government had initated the idea to assign Edna and David sleeping accommodations in Eleanor's suite, or whether they all had requested such an arrangement in advance.

Elsewhere in the book it is mentioned that, before his marriage to Edna, Eleanor had sounded David out on the desirability of sharing living accommodations on a permanent basis. At that time he had rejected the idea. Now, a very much married David casually accepts the idea of Eleanor in the same hotel suite as himself and his wife. The book tells us that David had initially had some difficulty getting his Visa to travel into Russia with Mrs. R. Perhaps the fact that David is Eleanor's physician eases the way for him. Could it be that the Russian government was pleased to lodge their valuable elderly guest under the constant scrutiny of her doctor?

In any event, the arrangement is like a rehearsal for the future when they will all buy a town house together. Edna says that they are all perfectly comfortable together in this test case of sharing a hotel suite. Edna praises Eleanor's consideration and courtesy. Eleanor apparently does her best not to interfere with privacy of the younger couple.

Harriet

The books I ordered from the Library have arrived. I am going up as soon as the library opens at 10 to get them. There are 3 including Eleanor alone and the war years. I don't know a lot about Eleanor but I do know a lot about FD and the new deal. I always felt he was a brave politician. I can't wait to read them. I am thinking of requesting our library to buy Kindred Souls- they really are very good at buying requests. They probably get a special deal. Of course the discussion will be well over before I get to read it but this discussion has really whetted my appetite to get hold of it!

Carolyn

That's great, CAROLYN! You can inform us about other aspects of Eleanor's life that we may not remember! Just stay tuned, this is a fascinating glimpse into the last years of Eleanor's life with David, the physician, and his lovely young wife.

Good comment, HARRIET! Yes, no doubt that being Eleanor's physician might have cleared the way for David to get his visa; perhaps even Eleanor might have requested that her physician accompany her? We don't know.

DO ANY OF YOU REMEMBER 1958 AND ANYONE ELSE THAT RUSSIA ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY? IT WAS A CLOSED SOCIETY. Very few could get in or out. I believe that was the year that Boris Pasternak received the Pulitizer Prize for his novel DOCTOR ZVAGHIO, which was banned in the Soviet Union; he did not travel to Sweden to receive the prize.

I did want to comment that in our book is a footnote about Eleanor's crash diets, which we all know are very bad for one's health; she would practically stop eating.

From the book Mother and Daughter by Bernard Asbell

Letter from Eleanor to Anna

Moscow Sept 16, 1957

Dearest Anna,

Back here just for part of a day yesterday as we were half a day late in leaving Tashkent because of fog here in Moscow. Went with the Indian Ambassador.....to see a touching Russian War Film just finished and some scenes from a film about a Russian Traveller in India in the 15th century which is being done in conjunction with Russia.

The days in Central Asia were fascinating not the least interesting is the contrasts of 50 years ago and now. The life of the people is enormously improved and most of them don't worry about politics. On every hand "peace" is preached and we are the ones depicted as the one danger to peace. They have no news that is truthful about the outside world so they believe and are grateful for all the improvements at home. A strange "Alice in Wonderland" world........

A World of Love Mother

Anna wrote about her mother

She felt a tremendous sense of duty to us. It was part of that duty to read to us, and to hear our prayers before we went to bed but she did not understand the need of a child for primary closeness to a parent.

Eleanor confirms

It did not come naturally to me to understand little children or to enjoy them. Playing with children was difficult for me because play had not been an important part of my own childhood.

These quotes from the book

Mother and Daughter by Bernard Asbell

I am speed reading Eleanor: The years alone by Joseph P. Lash.

I am blown away. What an incredible woman. Right in there representing her country as part of the US delegation to the fledgling United Nations. A woman ahead of her time. She served on the committee which was drafting the International Bill of Rights. During that time she had a case of the shingles (which is so painful) and still turned up to every session. She was four minutes late the day after she developed the shingles. Her payment for sitting on the committee was $15 a day plus expenses. Human Rights were very important to Eleanor.

Quoted from the book I have noted above

Daily her tall black garbed figure could be seen at Lake Success and Flushing Meadow slipping in and out of committee rooms toting a worn briefcase, a fur scarf dangling over her arm " the only delegate who is familiar with all the background work of her committees" said a colleague.

Another Quote about Human Rights from Eleanor - she wrote

Where, after all, do universal human rights begin? In small places, close to home- so close and so small that they cannot be seen on any maps of the World. Yet they are the world of the individual persons; the neighbourhood he lives in; the school or the college he attends; the factory farm or office where he works. Such are the places where every man woman and child seeks equal justice, equal opportunity, equal dignity without discrimination. Unless these rights have meaning there, they have little meaning anywhere. Without concerned citizen action to uphold them close to home, we shall look in vain for progress in the larger world.

Eleanor could hold her own intellectually against all comers in my opinion. Could her relationship with David have been a meeting of the minds?

I recommend that all of you read this book I have quoted from it shows her as an astounding diplomat.

Carolyn

Another Quote from Eleanor: The Years alone by Joseph P. Lash.

Her reply when she was harshly criticised for asking Krushchev to tea after his disgraceful performance at the UN assembly in 1960.

We have to face the fact that either all of us are going to die together or we are going to have to live together and if we are to live together we have to talk. End of Quotes

Eleanor was held in great affection with the Russian People and the leadership even when she would make plain to them her views on human rights and her disagreement with much of Soviet Policy. That was her greatness her ability to treat people with respect regardless of their political views. She was regal with a real heart for humanity as well. This is a very unusual combination.

Carolyn

Oh, Carolyn, I love your selection of quotes from the book and from Eleanor. Especially after reading her words on where do human rights begin, I thought, what an incredible mind, what an incredible legacy.

Also, you reminded us what Edna wrote in her book....that Eleanor's and David's common interests are what brought them together in such tight friendship in the first place.

Betty

I am delving now into the book also by Lash about the Roosevelts marriage. It begins outlining the beginnings in America of the Roosevelt family starting in 1646 and continuing on into the childhoods of both the Roosevelts.

Elliott- Eleanors father was unstable (bi-polar?) and an alcoholic I am very familiar with bi polar disorder and certainly Elliotts behaviour fits the pattern. However he was a loving father to Eleanor who incidently was christened Anna Eleanor after her mother. Her father called her his little Nell.

Eleanors mother was very beautiful and the couple were in the NY clique known as "The swells". Eleanors mother was critical of her daughters demeanour and of her looks often calling her Granny when she was only a small child.

The Elliott Roosevelts marriage was stormy and Eleanor took a lot of responsibilty as a very young child in comforting her parents and really should not have been burdened with her parents problems. I think you could say Eleanor had a very dysfunctional family. She lost both her parents at quite a young age Anna to diptheria and Elliott after an accident when he was injured after one of his reckless escapades on a horse I suspect during one of his manic periods. Anna and her surviving brother Hall were taken in by Anna's grandmother Hall. Granny Hall had a large family still at home and Eleanor did not get the attention she deserved. She was not dressed well by her grandmother and had few clothes even though $7,500 a year was paid for the childrens keep.

The happiest time of her childhood was when she was sent to England to finishing school. She asked to go back there for a third year after being very unhappy at home when she went back after what was to be her final year. She did her third year and came home to be thrust into the debutante scene (her coming out)

It was then at 18 she began to exercise her social conscience by doing voluntary work at the Settlements in the slums. Eleanor loved the children she taught and they in turn loved her.

When she was 19 she was noticed by Franklin and a courtship began with opposition from Sara Franklins mother who was extremely possessive.

This is just a bit of background information about Eleanor I think which explains her relationship with her children. She had not been nurtured as a child so she had no idea how to go about nuturing her own children.

CAROLYN

Wow, CAROLYN! I think you're fleshing our book out in the most wonderful way! KINDRED SOULS is a somewhat limited view of Eleanor and her relationship with David Gurewitsch, the physician who became the "son of her heart" in my opinion. Your posts have made Eleanor much more multi-dimensional and fascinating.

You have touched on her relationship with her daughter, Anna, her dedicated work in the United Nations for human rights and her skills in personal diplomacy. What a marvelous selection of quotes! YOU are blowing me away because you're handling multiple books simultaneously and providing all of these illuminating nuggets of information to share with us. Thank you!

Someone had wondered in a previous post, were Eleanor's letters to David Gurewitsch typical of her usual writing style? We now have a partial answer to that question, thanks to you. I couldn't help noticing how much less effusively she writes to Anna than her typical letters to David. The many benedictions and constant assurances of love that characterize Eleanor's correspondence with David are missing.

Now I wouldn't say that Eleanor's letter to her daughter is UNaffectionate...she refers to her daughter as "Dearest Anna" and her letter surely relays much of her intimate observations about her travels. Eleanor also signs off with a tender salutation: "A World of Love, Mother." It is surely a writing style that any child could accept with pleasure from her mother...UNLESS she had the opportunity to read some of the letters Eleanor wrote to David? Surely the comparison might then be wrenching and painful to Anna?

For your sake, CAROLYN, since you don't have KINDRED SOULS, let me excerpt a brief portion of one of Eleanor's birthday letters to David. Maybe the comparison of writing style to Anna's letter will interest you?

...I wish you greater happiness in the future than in the past. I shall be deeply sad when you go away but if you are happy I shall be glad for you. Remember always please that wherever I am open arms await you. My home anywhere is yours when you need it whether you are alone or whether you want to bring those you love.

CAROLYN, you inquired: Could her (Eleanor's) relationship with David have been a meeting of the minds? I believe that was a factor but again, thanks to you, I can't help noticing something else. Her letter to Anna deals with observations, opinions, things of the mind. By contrast, Eleanor's letters to David are filled with personal concern for his welfare, attempts to give advice about his personal problems and constant reminders that she values him as a person and finds him to be lovable and admirable. I wonder which sort of letter her children might have preferred?

One more observation: if the letter portion that you provided from Asbell's MOTHER AND DAUGHTER was typical, I would feel that Eleanor had a deep, emotional need to vent her love SOMEWHERE, but didn't feel free to do so with her daughter. Maybe she feared making herself vulnerable to Anna for fear of being hurt? Perhaps there was frost on her daughter's side of the relationship as well as on her own?

David may have provided that outlet for Eleanor's loving, deeply needy nature. Could it be that he provided an intuitive understanding and sympathy for her personality that she couldn't find elsewhere? Did the very brilliant Eleanor Roosevelt ultimately value uncritical affection from David much more than intellectual communication?

Later....

Harriet

HOW WONDERFUL TO COME IN ON A SOMEWHAT GLOOMY DAY AND READ ALL THESE GREAT POSTS! THANK YOU SO MUCH!

CAROLYN! I LOVE YOUR ENTHUSIASM - IT'S CATCHING! NOW I MUST READ THAT BOOK YOU QUOTE BY ASBELL

This is just what our BOOKS ON SENIORNET attempts to do and it works, SOMETIMES IT WORKS! And it makes us so happy when we can interest someone in a subject that they will do additional reading! And it's a two-way affair between Discussion Leaders and the group because we derive so much from you - your comments, your interests, your understanding of the subject - your slant on relationships.

It is so worthwhile to learn that our efforts are appreciated as it takes time to make the headings, to find links, to attempt to ask questions that will spark a conversation.

We try, but we don't always succeed.

CAROLYN - you have shown by your actions that we succeed sometimes and it's with gratitude that I thank you!

That quote from the Asbell book on Eleanor's visit to India struck home, particularly now when we seem to be disliked in many parts of the world - " On every hand "peace" is preached and we are the ones depicted as the one danger to peace."

WE ARE THE ONES DEPICTED AS THE ONE DANGER TO PEACE! Still!

Loved the quote you shared, as did BETTY, in reference to Human Rights. Wasn't she remarkable in stating clearly what she felt? And also in her columns. WHAT A GREAT LADY!

later, e.g.

I will post samples of Eleanors letters to Franklin in the early part of their life later today. Some have said the marriage was not a love match. From the letters it was in the beginning definately a love match. Franklin was attracted to Eleanor by her intelligence and her goodness. As for it maybe being a money match- their incomes from their family trusts were not that far apart $5,500 for Franklin and $7,500 for Eleanor annually. Sara was against the marriage because she had bigger fish to fry for her "Boy".

Carolyn

Here goes quotes from letters From Eleanor and Franklin by Joseph P. Lash.

Dec 4, 1903

....... I haven't had a letter from you this evening and I am wondering what has happened. I did so want it but I hope it will come in the morning. I am going to Tivoli by the early train & coming down by the 7.19 on Sunday.

Oh! boy dear, I want you so much. I am worried & tired & cross I don't know what I ought to do. Please be very careful of yourself dearest & don't work yourself to death & when you can write to me about Sunday.

Always your loving Eleanor

Franklin writes to Sara about his proposal to Eleanor

I know what pain it must have caused you and you know I would'nt do it if I really could have helped it - mais tu sais voila! That's all that could be said- I have known my own mind, have known it for a long time and I know that I could never think otherwise: Result I am the happiest man just now in the world: likewise the luckiest- And for you dear Mummy, you know that nothing can ever change what we have always been & always will be to each other- only now you have two children to love & to love you- and Eleanor as you know will always be a daughter to you in every true way.-

Sara was a very possessive mother but during the marriage she did speak her mind about Franklins affair with Lucy and other times she felt Eleanor was being short changed.

Carolyn

Oh, those are sweet letters aren't they! Thanks, Carolyn, for typing them in - imagine calling your husband "Boy Dear." I have never heard that before. Yes, I've read a couple of books about Eleanor and Franklin in the past and remember all about FDR's mother and the connecting doors on every floor of their two houses. I would hate her, just hate her!

Before we delete a few questions in the heading, any comments about the furniture that the Russians put in Eleanor's suite in Moscow? If she had not been told, would Eleanor have known do you think? I doubt it, she roamed all over the world and the rooms or the suites must have just all melded together in her mind.

I think the incident of the furniture showed that Russia could depart from its Cold War mentality if it wanted and remember the days when The Big Three. FDR, Churchill, and Stalin were allies.They treated Eleanor Roosevelt as a non-political symbol of the alliance that had once existed between The US and Russia.

Eleanor was not only treated as a personage in her own right, but she also enjoyed the kind of Red Carpet Treatment she might have received if FDR were still alive and president.

CAROLYN, Franklin was certainly determined to wed Eleanor back when he wrote that letter to his mother. It would have been wonderful if he had been just as equally determined to protect her interests in the upbringing of their children. If he had, we might have had a better destiny for those youngsters. Don't you all think that the Roosevelt brood could have used a bit of the responsibility that Eleanor was always advocating? Eleanor always felt that her mother-in-law spoiled her children too much.

Harriet

Yes, agreed, Harriett, about what would have benefitted the children. Also agree that FDR let his wife, Eleanor, down by allowing his mother to invade the boundaries of his marriage. How insulting and demeaning to Eleanor that Sara usurped her place and that Franklin stood by and watched. A sick system.

Betty

Storms all day off and on and I'm just rushing in to say Hello to all; will return in the morning hopefully! We needed this rain, perhaps we can see a bit of green grass growing after the terrible brown stuff that has covered our lawns for the past several weeks!

Green before the white snow! Isn't it great that nature provides us with such a wide range of colors?

More storms coming today, but wanted to just put this question to anyone (where is everybody, are you still with us - anyone?):

In the picture of Val-Kill in the snow on page 173 does it seem to you that one of the upstairs sleeping porch windows is open? Have you seen a lot of this type of sleeping porch in old houses? What was their purpose?

David, as you know, had tuberculosis. Do any of you know anyone that had it? It has not been eradicated from the world, particularly in Third World countries, and you know I can't think how they treat it today.

Can anyone help? I know my MIL had it as a young person and she told me the doctors advised sleeping with the windows open all night long, in any kind of weather!

Wow! That takes courage but she did it and these sleeping porches allowed one to do that too. We have a neighborhood dating back to the turn of the century and it is full of these double porches such as in the picture and I've wondered if the upstairs sleeping porch was designed with TB in mind.

Of course, the downstairs porch would be wonderful for plants, etc., a conservatory of the middle-class family.

Anyone?

ELLA, I wonder what sort of house Eleanor lived in with her beloved father as a very young child? Val-Kill with its distinctive sleeping porch was a gift from Franklin, wasn't it? It was Eleanor's very own refuge and it offered her the first opportunity to build to her own tastes. So...did Eleanor remember happy childhood times with her father in an airy, fresh-air-filled bedroom? It would be interesting to know if Eleanor's father had preferred a sleeping porch arrangement. In any event, this is surely a lot of personal conjecture.

What does seem to be a fact is that Eleanor herself enjoyed the option of fresh air in all kinds of weather. Thanks to you, ELLA, I noticed the open window in the Val-Kill porch for the first time. There were many of Eleanor's generation who also believed in the efficacy of pure air, and Eleanor, even in her new house on 74th Street that she shared with David and Edna, had a circular balcony adjoining her bedroom. It must have let in plenty of fresh air. According to Edna Gurewitsch, Eleanor enjoyed breakfasting outdoors on her balcony. I wonder, did she leave that balcony door open at night, so the air could sweep through her bedroom?

I'll be back later to discuss the next question... about Eleanor and her relationship with some of her women friends.

Harriet

Eleanors closest friends from my research of 'No ordinary Life' By Doris Kearns Goodwin.

Elizabeth Read Accomplished Lawyer Esther Lape Taught English at Swarthmore and Barnard later became a celebrated Publicist Nancy Cook Director of the Womens Division NY State Democratic Party Marion Dickerman Vice Principal and teacher at Todhunter School Exclusive school for girls

There are hints in the book as to these four women being gay.

Then there were Elinor Morgenthau, Caroline o"Day - Womens Div Democratic Party, Molly Dewson a social worker and AP Reporter Lorena Hickok.

These women were the mentors who enabled Eleanor to become the confident Politcally active women we grew to admire.

I will leave it to Harriet to fill in the details of these and any other relationships she had.

Carolyn

Carolyn, No Ordinary Life is such a good book and its author, Doris Kearns Goodwin, one of my favorite authors.

Betty

It sure is Betty but I have found all the books I took out very honest and frank in their material. I never knew til today that Eleanor came to NZ during the war! Fancy that! The beauty of the current book I am reading is that shows the Roosevelts as very fallible people but a couple who had a special relationship regardless of the loss of intimacy in their marriage after Franklin's affair with Lucy. Its a bit like the marriage of Oliver and Susan in Angle of Repose I kept seeing parallels in their relationship. Susan critical of Olivers personality and Eleanor critical of Franklins. Its really fascinating! Its good to read the two books together.

Carolyn

Actually, CAROLYN, the names of Eleanor's dear friends are perhaps all that anyone can attest to with accuracy. I'm not sure where the lesbian stories started...perhaps with "Hick"...Lorena Hickock? J Edgar Hoover kept voluminous files on Eleanor. They included accusations of her purported affairs with Ms. Hickok, Joe Lash and others. Hoover did like to throw the mud around, indicating that Eleanor was lesbian, bisexual, and hetero, all at the same time.

The only completely substantiated fact that I know was that Eleanor Roosevelt loved humanity and cared for the human condition. While Hoover's reputation and veracity have declined under historical scrutiny, Eleanor's value and courage as a human being has been burnished and enhanced by the passage of time. History suggests that Hoover had his own agenda. He consolidated his personal power as head of the FBI by making sure he had embarrassing information on those who might threaten his position. As to the truth of that unscrupulous information, who knows...and honestly, where Eleanor is concerned, who CARES?

I understand that Eleanor cared for the substantially disabled Hick until her own death, but she did not invite her to permanently live in Val-Kill and she ultimately chose to live under the same roof with David and Edna Gurewitsch, a married couple. Edna claimed that even within the intimate confidences that her husband and Eleanor shared, no validation of any past physical same-sex love were ever discussed.

I wonder what happened to Lorena Hickok after Eleanor's death?

BETTY, I'm very impressed by Doris Kearns Goodwin also.

Harriet

CAROLYN! You are into some deep reading and discussing when you can compare nonfiction to fiction. I rarely read fiction anymore and I don't know why that is so! That is ALL I used to read, but tastes change at times. Good for you! And finding that truth is as strange as fiction huh?

We have two ladies that bought a smaller house in our neighborhood and, of course, the gossip was that they were lesbians; whether they were or not, (I'm not sure if the word has to have some sexual connotation) it wasn't more than a year later that one of them was pregnant with a baby - something unheard of in our young years - no doubt, a sperm bank baby; but the neighborhood was so friendly after that for some reason. They would walk every evening and when the baby came there were more walks and everyone stopped to talk!

Who can resist a darling baby!

Eleanor must have been so very happy with the living arrangement with David and Edna. You will have noticed that she had proposed it some years earlier but David had turned it down at the time, which makes you wonder why it was satisfactory now? He must have full faith that Edna, being a kind person and a loving one, will be able to handle that even though she is a new bride (that's amazing in itself), but both of them must have realized that Eleanor at the age of 75 was "settling down."

What a comfort, as Edna states, to her children that she would be living in the same house with her physician, but one wonders if they truly felt comfortable with this arrangement as it has been intimated earlier that her children resented David and his place in their mother's heart.

Edna mentions the "private loneliness" of Eleanor - gosh, if I lived as busy a life as she and as productive as she was with her writing, etc., I would welcome the private loneliness, wouldn't you? When you read this book you wonder at her energy to be so busy all the time.

Could you, at your age now, do all she does in a day? Of course, she didn't fill her time with housework, yard work and cooking - perhaps I might find time to do more if I wasn't involved with all of that, I don't know.

later, eg

One more thing - the three of them taking a vacation together to Puerto Rico and I can't help but wonder how they work out the money problem. Being a gentleman David would have wanted to pay for her meals I am sure, and also just as sure she would have fought him on this - how did they work that out do you suppose?

Our book says that Eleanor almost backed out of the trip because she was afraid she would be intruding on David and Edna. She was ever conscious of this I believe and went to great pains to keep from doing just that; recalling the misery she went through with her mother-in-law when she was newly-wed and bringing up her children. Addressing the questions in the heading I don't believe we have enough material in the book to judge the living arrangements, the relationship between Edna and Eleanor do you? We have hints now and then, but I would love to talk to Edna about it all, wouldn't you?

The fact that Edna remembers snippets of their conversation such as the remark that "the nicest men in the world always keep something of the boy in them" and then adding "Franklin was like that" convinces me that she was fond of Eleanor, admired her, perhaps felt sorry for her?

The book I quoted from earlier never says that Eleanor was a lesbian. However it does say that Lorena definately was one and she had feelings for Eleanor which Eleanor wrote to her she could not return. Eleanor was starved of mothering as a child and the women she drew around her gave her the feminine affection she craved as well as the intellectual stimulus she sought.

Franklin was light hearted and in his leisure time liked to kick over the traces. Eleanor could never do that and even in the evenings and weekends she spent hours working often into the small hours.

Eleanor was a huge influence on Franklins life and early in their relationship took him to the slums. When they returned home he told her he had no idea people lived in such poverty. She awakened his social conscience.

Joseph Lash and David filled an intellectual need in Eleanor. Her children were not as interested social reform as she was. I believe these two young men were in a way soul mates. I am positive there was nothing more than this in the relationships.

The women she drew around her nurtured her soul as well as her intellect.

Carolyn

With nothing more than Doris Kearns Goodwin's careful and elegant writing to inform me, I actually believe that Eleanor may have enjoyed a lesbian relationship with Lorena Hickock for a period of time. I believe this to be sometime after Lucy was accepted as a known quantity and before other close friends and family took up periodic residence in the White House, as Hickock did.

It was almost like a hotel, the White House, but I remember that Hickock lived there a good long time. To all, she was known as Eleanor's close friend and for a stretch of time, they really depended on each other. No one can know how close they were, of course, but I don't look upon Hoover's accusations as something "bad," but something good, actually, if it brought Eleanor a loving relationship and happiness. Maybe Hoover stumbled upon something good! Or made up something good, even if he didn't see it that way!!

Betty

I have been following the posts with great interest. Unfortunately I am not able to speak with such authority about Eleanor and her life, but I do admire your intimate knowledge of this incredile lady. I am also impressed by your ability to read so many books at the one time - I think I must be very slow or otherwise use my time very inefficiently, as one is all I can manage. VBG

There was an interesting note in the posts about Eleanor's habit of sleeping outside. When I was a child it was quite a common practice to sleep on an open verandah in the fresh air, even though we had our own bedrooms. Of course it is not possible to get the same benefits (if any) of sleeping out today as the air would no longer be 'fresh'. So a lot of the behaviours (and values) of my youth (I am now 80 years old)have now disappeared.

Barbara

I have a lot of spare time as I have health problems and rarely go anywhere in the evenings. I don't like most of what is on TV so I read. If I have a bad day where I can hardly drag myself about I read too! You probably have a much livlier social life than I do. Also I can speed read. I did 5 years of speed reading tuition at school so I can scan an ordinary novel in about and hour and a half a non fiction book takes me a bit longer. So you can see this is how I get through so many books. I have to say however to really enjoy a book I have to get it in audio form. I cannot read at normal speed now.

Carolyn

Carolyn, that is so interesting! I have always wondered if once you can speed read, if that is the only way you can read. So you listen to books to get more out of them? I, myself, just chew the words and digest them and it takes me forever to even scan a book. I like to listen to audio tapes also but usually only do that while traveling.

I,too, love Doris Kearns Goodwin and will look for her book. I have two copies of her "Wait'Til Next Year" which is about my favorite summer sport, baseball and I have read it twice! Its just so much fun!

Well, I have seen three videos of PBS? Eleanor and Franklin by from the book written by Joseph Lash. Very well done and so interesting. The first two are her recollections while traveling with FDR's body on the train to DC. All the people who stood along the train track, day and night, just to see his coffin. Reminds me of Bobby Kennedy's train across America and of course, Lincoln's. Anyway, if you have a chance to see these video's, don't hesitate. Jane Alexander and Edward Herman are such perfect people to play the parts of Eleanor and Franklin.

If I understand it correctly, Eleanor agreed to maintain the marriage but not the marriage bed and realized that she must now make a life for herself. And, so did Louis Howe. Joseph Lash comments that Louis knew that he had been making a king(of Franklin) and now he must help make a queen. So, he does help Eleanor learn to speak before crowds and helps her with what to say.

There is a scene in the movie about Louis and Eleanor going to an area where many veterans of the WWI are working in NY state, living in tents and generally making trouble for the government. He sends Eleanor into the mess hall where trouble makers spend their time planning to give the federal government a hard time, and when she returns to the car, she tells Louis that she thinks they are open to working for something like the CCC or similar organizations in their hometowns. The woman was a real peace maker. We need more like her today.

As to Eleanor's having a lesbian affair with Hickock, it really doesn't matter to me. We all need someone to love and aren't we lucky when someone comes along? Eleanor was so generous to all of her friends from DAY 1, in her life. She always says that without friends she would be so lonely.

HI, EVERYONE! SO NICE TO SEE YOU ALL HERE!

Today we begin discussing the final segment of KINDRED SOULS. It covers some of Eleanor's travels and her gradually encroaching final illness. I was moved by the philosophy of life that kept Eleanor strong. Eleanor expressed to Edna, "You hold on to the good of a thing, the part that enriches you, and do not dwell on the sadness. It is unproductive." What a remarkable woman!

I wanted to make a final comment on the mutual lifestyle Eleanor had formed with her beloved David and his wife. In the 1900's Eleanor's mother-in-law had purchased two side-by side townhouses and renovated them so that there were connecting interior doors between her home and FDR's and Eleanor's home. In effect, there was only one continuous house and Eleanor had felt the lack of privacy intensely. The arrangement between herself and David was much more private.

The townhouse that David and Edna shared with Eleanor had an elevator running through all levels and lockable doors at the entry of each of their living quarters. In our book, Edna relates an incident when David pressured Eleanor to take care of her health. Eleanor became so annoyed that she retreated into her own apartment, locked the door and put on the chain. Later, David talked to her about never chaining her door because, as her physician, he needed to be able to access her quarters in case she became ill. I thought that was an interesting picture of their communal arrangements.

They had separate and private apartments, but they also fell easily into a familial intimacy. Many evenings they all dined together in Eleanor's apartment. Edna and Eleanor often spent time together companionably chatting while they waited for David to return from work. Then they all might attend a play or concert or spend an evening at home together. They maintained a civilized distance...they always phoned before visiting each other. They also each had some social engagements exclusive of the other.

Amazingly, Edna wrote that she never understood the full extent of Eleanor's accomplishments until she began to write KINDRED SOULS after her death. Their relationship was mostly personal...Eleanor often offered advice on how she had solved various problems and sympathetically listened to the events of Edna's day. Any political talk was merely incidental. It was mostly with David that Eleanor shared the treasure trove of her political savvy. As the book progresses I feel that the two women became genuinely fond of each other. David started out as their common bond, but they eventually seemed to become affectionate friends in their own right.

Harriet

When Edna Gurewitsch talks about her own parents, she does so with affection. Yet I wonder how they felt watching the intimacy evolve between their daughter and Eleanor? If I were Edna's mother, I think I might be upset...maybe even jealous... to see my daughter spend so much time with someone who was like an alternate parent. Is it possible that Edna's parents felt their own position in their daughter's love threatened? I wonder how Edna reassured her parents?

What a complicated set of family relations in this book! Eleanor sometimes traveled to Washington, but she slept in the homes of friends rather than in the homes of any of her children who might be in residence there. She is described as being "tense" or "withdrawn" after prolonged contact with her own children.

Yet, she loved them and thought about their welfare. In her seventies, Eleanor tried not to use her inherited money. Our book describes how she chose to live on earned income from lecture appearances, journalistic work and books she had authored. She wanted to keep her estate as intact as possible for her children.

As a young woman, Eleanor had commented that she felt she had no skills and was not fit for productive work . Now, as an elderly woman, Eleanor commanded a yearly earned income sufficient to support her personal lifestyle. What an accomplishment!

Does anyone know if Eleanor had any sort of government pension?

Harriet

Eleanor was entitled to a pension but I can't remember if she accepted it or not.

Eleanor was a workoholic. I believe that her very lonely and traumatic childhood caused her to put up barriers which were never broken down.She had been terribly let down by the two people who should have been the nurturers in her life. She rarely cried no matter how sorrowful the circumstances. I believe she never felt real happiness or real sorrow all of her life so thick were those barriers. Her underlying need for fulfillment was the engine that drove her to live such a frenetic life. The intense friendships she formed was her search for the personal fulfillment I do not believe she ever really found with anyone. She thought she had found it with FDR but the affair with Lucy ripped her apart. Her idol was flawed and nothing would ever be the same between them again.

Carolyn

Three of the photos jumped out at me;

"--I at theBrussels World Fair---".

"---I entering a Soviet ministry---"

"---I seated in her sleek silver convertible Fiat--."

Shouldn't it be "me"?

Always look at the photos first and thus haven't really started reading. But it sure sounds facinating----our whole family always greeatly admired Eleanor Roosevelt.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR THE GREAT COMMENTS ON ELEANOR! HOW INTERESTING YOU ALL ARE!

ANN commented on Louis Howe and he was such a great friend to both Eleanor and Franklin, a friend that both could confide in which was rare in their marriage!

I watched a video titled "ELEANOR, FIRST LADY OF THE WORLD" and Louie (as they called him) said that Franklin didn't have any friends or confidants, just admirers and cronies and it struck me again that these two (Eleanor and Franklin) could have been so close, but were so far apart! Both were intellectuals, loved poetry, people, politics, worked hard to make a better world and yet did it alone.

In the video Eleanor was also secretive and private; she never allowed herself to show emotion in public other than an outward facade that was always cheerful.

CAROLYN - you are fantastic! As BARBARA commented I, too, am impressed by your ability to read so many books at one time. You are the first person I've ever known who can speed read; but we have something in common as I just remarked to a friend recently that -"I don't like most of what is on TV so I read" or I type on the computer" Both are solitary pursuits but I am content.

BETTY said and I quote "It was almost like a hotel, the White House" - indeed! With their friends, children, grandchildren all coming at times; having 5 children with grandchildren at the time it must have been a circus! And how could you say no to the children? How did Eleanor do it? The video showed, and I believe our book reinforces, that Eleanor could work at her desk in the middle of chaos.

CAROLYN, you write so well and when you said this - "Franklin was light hearted and in his leisure time liked to kick over the traces" I was reminded of a scene where FDR and his daughter, Ann, were having lunch and laughing heartily when Eleanor came in and ruined it all by being pedantic and forcing FDR to look at papers she brought in. Both FDR and Ann protested, but Eleanor was firm and Ann, unhappily, left the room.

Perhaps she was at times too engrossed in her work to make time for humor and fun; lightheartedness? Perhaps this happened often? What do you think?

Hello SELDOM! I'm the wrong person to answer grammatical questions, but am very happy you have the book and know you will enjoy reading it.

When you read of the variety of people that Edna and David met through their friendship with Eleanor, I think that it was perhaps to their advantage to be close with this woman; everyone from the Crown Prince of Ethiopia to Frank Sinatra!

I note in this chapter "UNDER THE SAME ROOF" that Eleanor would call Edna before she came to visit which made these living arrangements suitable to both; do you notice anything here that hints of annoyance on Edna or David's part?

On reading your message, I get the impression that you thought I was criticising your ability to read so many books at the one time. Nothing is farther than the truth, I am sincerely overawed at this skill, and for me all the extra curricular information has livened the discussion for me.

My social life? Yes I consider myself to be very blessed; I am still able to drive and I have a wonderful family who include me in all family activities and as I am unable to walk more than a few steps, take on the job of wheel chair pushers without too much reluctance. I hope this has cleared this up.

I will be away from the end of the week visiting my daughter, and don't know how much opportunity I will have to tune in to Eleanor. So will have to catch up when I come home. The discussion will most probably have concluded by then and I just want to thank you ELLA and HARRIET for the work you have put in to keeping the discussion rolling along. As I said before, I have found it very interesting.

Barbara

We seem to think that Eleanor didn't cry much but in the movie of Eleanor and Franklin, she tells someone that her grandmother always warned against crying in public. "If you must cry, go into the bathroom, turn on the water faucets and then cry." As she does when her baby, Franklin 1 dies.

One thing that Eleanor and Louis discuss is whether Franklin had any friends and Eleanor comments, "He keeps himself to himself," Then goes on to mention that he has confidents, advisors and political buddies. No close friends. (Just like Truman).Friends take time to cultivate and these men did not have the time with their political ambitions.

Someone here mentioned daughter, Anna's relationship with her father and the scene of her really enjoying breakfast in her father's bedroom until Eleanor arrives with a proposal that she wants FDR to read and study. They have a tiff over this, with Anna shouting at her mother about E causing FDR a nervous breakdown. But E stands her ground. The reason being that the proposal was written by Esther Lape for a form of Medicare. This was in the 1937! 30 years before we saw one being put in place.

FDR comments to E that our constitution should be flexible so the amendments and programs that he tries to put in place will be keeping up with the times.

YOU ARE LEAVING US, BARBARA? Have a good time at your daughter's house and we shall meet again in another discussion soon I hope. I love your ability of entering into a discussion and talking to others so that we all feel connected. It's a gift and you have it!

Ann, thanks for contributing information to our discussion of this wonderful couple and I am amazed also at the fact that a proposal for Medicare "was in the 1937! 30 years before we saw one being put in place."

David urges Edna to go to Israel with the two of them because "You may never again have the chance to see Israel with Mrs. Roosevelt."

David's remark is the first indication that Edna has of the seriousness of Eleanor's symptoms.

I remember David Ben Gurion, the dynamic leader of Israel, do you? On Brian Lamb's BOOKNOTES Sunday evening he interviewed an author by the name of Eliot Cohen who has written a book about 4 leaders of democracies; he picked these 4 leaders because they were exceptional in his opinion - David Ben Gurion was one of them. The book is entitled SUPREME COMMAND.

Why is it, can someone tell me, that when people speak of Israel they call it a state instead of a country? All of the middle east countries called states?

I was amused by our author's statement that Eleanor was pleased to see someone close to her own age still active in public life and with an alert mind! Aren't we all!

If Eleanor was living today, in this age, would she be on a computer?

It's easy to say yes, but - David McCullough doesn't use one. Neither does Ben Bradlee, the former and still active editor of the Washington Post, and a couple of other authors we have attempted to get online.

Is it true that women take to a computer easier than men? And if so, why?

BARBARA, you will be missed. Have a wonderful time with your daughter and look in on us if you can. It is always a pleasure to have your company and to read your comments. Hope you get back before the discussion ends, but if not, surely we will meet in some future discussion. I'll look forward to that.

Harriet

Edna took her husband's advice and traveled to Israel with Eleanor. It must have been vastly different from traveling privately. From the special waiting rooms accorded for her comfort in busy airports to the limousines that chauffeured her directly onto the tarmac to her waiting plane, the world treated Eleanor Roosevelt differently from most people.

During a brief stop in England, Edna and Mrs. R. had tea with the future Prime Minister, Lord Alec Douglas-Home, and followed that with a short visit to see the ailing Winston Churchill. The great and near great of all nations vied to extend hospitality to her. Edna was a recipient of all this graciousness also because she was in Eleanor's company.

How thrilling it must be to travel under such special circumstances. Wouldn't you think so also? Eleanor and her travel companion, Edna, enjoyed the personal hospitality of the leaders of various countries, chatted about world issues with them, got a close up view of their human side and laughed together over small things. Eleanor moved among the giants of her time and was accepted as one of them.

As ELLA pointed out, Edna and Mrs. R met with David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir. They dined with Abba Eban. Surely, Edna was wise to accept an invitation to travel with Eleanor because any journey in her company assumed a unique flavor that would not be possible without her presence.

During all of this, Mrs. Roosevelt was entering into her final illness. Yet, her remarkable will-power did not fail her even when her stamina began to suffer, and she carried on her rigorous schedule despite the onset of personal health issues.

Harriet

Interesting question, ELLA, about whether Eleanor would be into computers if she were alive today. I've thought about it a bit and I've come to the conclusion that she probably would be into only SOME aspects of computers.

She never chose to personally use a typewriter for any of her work-related writing. At least I haven't read of any accounts of Eleanor pecking away at a typewriter. Have any of you? In her day, typewriters were the communication equivalent of the word processing feature of computers.

She solved her writing problems by employing a personal secretary for her journalistic and literary work. Her agile mind and powerful vocabulary enabled her to dictate her MY DAY columns as fluently as if she were chatting personally with a friend. That seems to have been her modus operandi for work related writing. She probably would have loved the ease and speed of computer mail for business purposes and might have expected her secretary to be fully knowledgeable in its use.

An old fashioned aristocrat, she always wrote long hand for her personal correspondence. She must have known that it took dedication to decipher her handwriting. There are reproductions of parts of her letters in the inside of both the front and back covers of KINDRED SOULS, and her scrawl is not the easiest to decipher. Yet I feel that she would never have considered taking the easier path of a computer to write her personal letters. I would guess that she eschewed the typewriter in her day because she might have felt that penning her personal letters by hand was a sign of regard for the person with whom she corresponded.

However, and I'm having a lot of fun with personal conjecture here, I believe she would have been fascinated with the Internet. A lifelong learner, she gladly read worthwhile informational books whenever she had the time. I believe she would have utilized the research and informational facilities of the computer because she would have instantly grasped its usefulness in expanding her knowledge and giving her a broader view of the world.

I can almost picture Eleanor dashing to her computer to get a multifaceted, international view of a world event in a hurry. I don't visualize her sitting for any length of time because her schedule was usually too structured to permit a leisurely pleasure such as surfing the net.

Of course others might visualize a different answer, but I found this to be a fun question to play with, ELLA.

Harriet

OH, yes, Harriet and Ella, she would have been here, in her off hours?? but she would definitely have been here. Maybe after she was older and stuck at home? This lady was so into the social work of this country and where could she have been more in touch than here on the net. My goodness, when she realized the power of the net, her MY DAY column would have been out there for the world to read, I think that she would have urged her fellow seniors to go online! LIKE US!!!

Harriet, you don't think she would have enjoyed discussing ideas (whether from a book or from a political site) on the Internet because "her schedule was usually too structured to permit a leisurely pleasure?" Yes, that is a possibility, does she ever find the time to read? Can you remember a place in the book where she has leisure time to pursue relaxing activities?

I remember she knitted but it was always while she was talking to someone or waiting for someone, etc.

She always had people around and it seems to me as if she was frightened to be alone with her own thoughts - is that a possibility?

Ann - I agree that her MY DAY column would have been on the Internet but on a site connected with a newspaper as she depended on the income from that column to sustain her living expenses. It would not have been free for all to see, and when those columns do appear in newspapers aren't they a day or so late in order that daily subscribers can get the news first?

You're right, Harriet, she didn't peck at a typewriter, she dictated to a secretary; therefore, would she have learned a keyboard to interact with the Internet. I doubt that.

Is anyone as interested as I am in the body language of the photograph on the back cover? C U all later

Barbara

BARBARA, would you believe I never took a good look at that photo before? I had removed the book jacket to protect it while I was hauling the book around with me so much.

Before I read this book I would have said that the picture shows a group of friends. But a closer look makes me feel that David is assuming a submissive posture. He crouches near the seated Mrs. R and his head leans toward her...just missing curling up near her shoulder. It is she who sits straight in an erect, but relaxed posture.

Of the two, the book always seemed to indicate that Eleanor was the supplicant, the needier one in this relationship. Do any of you agree that this photo has a different look to it? I would feel that the man in the photo is leaning toward an important maternal security figure in his life. Of course the book was written by David's wife. Do you think she perceived her husband as being more independent than he actually was and wrote her book that way?

Edna kneels on the other side of Mrs. Roosevelt, who is plainly the central personage in this photo. Edna is with them both, yet she is also a little bit apart. Somehow, it is Eleanor and David who seem to be the couple in this photo. Interesting...

I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone else who has access to the photo on the back cover? How do you feel about it, BARBARA? So perceptive of you to notice, and I would be eager to hear what you make of the body language here.

Harriet

Hello Harriet and Barbara - if you are still around?

I never noticed that photo on the back cover either - THAT IS AN EXCELLENT OBSERVATION AND IT IS THOSE VERY OBSERVATIONS THAT WE CHERISH FROM PARTICIPANTS AS WE ALL HAVE VARYING VIEWPOINTS IN A DISCUSSION. WE SEE AND READ DIFFERENTLY.

Fascinating. Harriet I see Eleanor's fingers on David's shoulders and perhaps she has tugged him closer? We'll never know, and I thought your comment - "Edna is with them both, yet she is also a little bit apart. Somehow, it is Eleanor and David who seem to be the couple in this photo." was very perceptive.

We should answer those questions in the heading and I'll start with the first one - the bronze statute "Grief" as it was commonly called was commissioned by Henry Adams as a memorial to his wife who committed suicide. This Henry Adams - any relation to our JOHN ADAMS, PRESIDENT?

Why Eleanor would choose such a statute to love and find inspiration from is a total puzzle to me! But obviously she did because she had asked Edna on several occasions to accompany her to Rock Creek Cemetery in Washington. As Edna states:

"I did not know at the time that the solitary, mournful figure had given her the solace and inspiration she needed to work out her problems. She was not going to give up. She was going to live and be useful."

Why would a figure dedicated to a person who had committed suicide give her inspiration? I'm going to the Internet to try to find a picture of the statute.

Yes, yes, HENRY ADAMS was of that illustrious family of John and Quincy. I couldn't find the sculpture in Rock Creek Cemetery but I did find the graves of Henry, Clover and someone(?????) - you can study this for yourself here: grave of Clover ADams, wife of Henry who died from drinking photographic chemicals

And another site: Henry Adams

I finished watching the Eleanor and Franklin videos last night and was struck at how influential Eleanor was in getting Franklin back into a political life after his two-year rest from polio. FDR said to her that he would, no doubt, fail if he should attempt it and ER said NO. FDR asked if that meant No he shouldn't attempt it and she said NO YOU SHOULDN'T FAIL.

This was her attitude about giving up. I will quote something from the book which illustrates ER's positive thinking:

"That works for you, Mrs. Roosevelt" (Edna replied), "but not everyone grows strong on obstacles. Some stumble and fall down." But she insisted, "You are not allowed to fall down. You must stay on your feet and keep going."

ELLA, Mrs. R said she found this statue a source of comfort during the time she became aware that FDR and Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd were having their affair again. I had missed that the statue was commissioned in memory of a wife who had committed suicide.

Somewhere in our book, Edna Gurewitsch stated that Eleanor had confided there were times when she was overcome by a mood so somber that the thought of suicide had flashed through her mind. I'm sorry that I don't remember the page for that reference. Eleanor always had a personal philosophy that she must never give up, regardless of personal despair...she must always carry onward in what she perceived as her duty and responsibility. Of course she never allowed herself to act on her suicidal urges.

Is it possible that Eleanor identified with another woman who had killed herself, and a statue called GRIEF? Was she comforted by the thought of the misery and love of the husband who had commissioned the statue in his wife's honor? Did she wonder if Franklin would be equally overcome by guilt and loss if she herself were not alive?

She spent time contemplating the sculpture when her own feelings of rejection about the loss of her marriage and Franklin were strongest.

Harriet

On the back cover photo...my thought when I first got the book was that David's posture was of someone leaning in for the picture....he didn't scoot his whole body in, just his head.

On Eleanor and the internet, it would have been email that would have captured her. She would have liked the efficiency of email and become comfortable with that first, then who knows, maybe next would have been transmitting her pieces of writing without having to mail or call them in. And, definitely the use of an assistant or secretary.....I can hear her saying, "See if there's anything on the internet about that."

Betty

Ella, when first I clicked on the picture URL, my Netscape crashed! Then, using the second clickable, I got through to the statue. Its so depressing! Who's grief is it? Henry Adam's or his wife's? I don't think that statue would have helped me through sorrow or depression! My gosh, its not cheery, that's for sure!

Storms are predicted here for this afternoon, so I shal post hurriedly today; we have put new questions in the heading for your consideration. Do tell us what you think about them.

Of course, we all will agree that Kennedy knew the respect that was awarded to Eleanor, not only in this country, but throughout the world and having her in his corner could do nothing but enhance his own candidacy. Her guests that were invited to a party to watch the Kennedy-Nixon debate all agreed, if I am reading this correctly (in a hurry) all agreed that JFK won the debate. I certainly agree, does everyone here?

Although I have heard some commentators disagree on the "factual" issues of that famous debate, believing that Nixon knew more than JFK. I can believe Edna when she states that "Watching election returns with Eleanor Roosevelt was a rare experience."

How many people would have had the experiences in elections and election results that she had? She knew, as Edna stated, the Democratic areas of the country and how the rural/city folks might vote.

Reading again about that inauragation of JFK was a flashback for me as I very well remember that occasion and poor, weary, old Robert Frost reading his poem and Kennedy's memorable "Ask Not" speech.

later, eg

I agree on all points. Eleanor was a symbol of the successful FDR administration as well as a notable figure in her own right. JFK surely remembered the days when his father, Joseph P Kennedy, then the US Ambassador to Great Britain, held opinions about American foreign policy that were at variance with those of President Roosevelt. It led to both the end of the elder Kennedy's ambassadorship and the end of his political influence within the Democratic Party.

Therefore, the younger Kennedy had reason to understand the importance of cultivating the Roosevelt influence. He treated Eleanor as the great lady she was and as a symbol of the period of history that Franklin Roosevelt had represented. A man who had the ability to learn from his father's mistakes, JFK was grateful for her support.

JFK was a man with unforgettable style. I still remember the wave of emotion that swept through me as I listened to his extraordinary inaugural speech. Many of his phrases..."the torch has been passed to a new generation"...and "ask not what your country can do for YOU" have now become part of our American heritage, but on that inaugural day those words were fresh and had SUCH impact.

Harriet

Eleanor's final illness must have been difficult for her. All of her life she had been graced with an extraordinarily strong constitution and remarkable stamina.

Our author, Edna Gurewitsch commented in KINDRED SOULS that Eleanor privately considered Edna too fragile a person. Eleanor couldn't understand why Edna, a much younger woman, tired more easily than herself. In truth there are probably few of us who could match Eleanor's remarkable vitality and stern sense of duty throughout most of her life.

How hard it must have been...how surprising the unfamiliar sensation of exhaustion must have been to Eleanor as her illness encroached on her activities. Eleanor responded with her familiar credo of will power. She refused to falter, she found her refuge in keeping to her normal frenetic life style of constant appointments and people-filled days and evenings. Initially she did not allow herself to consider the possibility of illness. All of her experiences throughout her life had taught Eleanor that mental and physical fatigue could be overcome by her strength of character.

Not an easy patient for a doctor to deal with...

Eleanor even became annoyed with her beloved David when he wanted her to find time for medical appointments and recommended curtailing her activities. She neglected her health, but she NEVER neglected her obligations to others. It led to the very few arguments between Eleanor and David, her doctor.

Yet wasn't that very stubbornness also a characteristic that led to an increased quality of life for Eleanor? She may have had a longer tenure of productivity than other patients suffering her illness because she refused to give in to her symptoms. She traveled extensively and involved herself with causes almost to the end. It was not in her nature to permit her physical symptoms to rule her day. She always found strength from her sense of duty and obligation to others.

Harriet

Hello Harriet! I had to smile at this phrase: "how surprising the unfamiliar sensation of exhaustion!"

Isn't that true of many of us? Just the other day I asked my husband when was it and how did it happen that when we got down on the floor or ground it became so difficult to get up again? Why is that? How does it happen, when did it happen. It's a puzzle - even though your health is fairly good it is surprising when it happens?

There are conflicting reports of Eleanor's death in the books I have which are KINDRED SOULS and Joseph Lash's ELEANOR: THE YEARS ALONE and I quote a few statements from the Lash book.

Trude Lash, who accompanied them on the Campobello trip (was that fact brought out in Edna's book?), said that Eleanor told her that she was "slipping away without regret or pain and she was pleading with David to let her go." Before they left on that trip she had a temperature of 105.6!

Another comment in this book - this from a letter written by Trude Lash to Paul Tillich:

"There was only suffering for Mrs. Roosevelt from the first day in July when she was taken to the hospital for the first time. There was no moment of serenity. There was only anger, helpless anger at the doctors and nurses and the world who tried to keep her alive. The doctors had her where they wanted her.

'They can do with me what they want, not what I want,' she said bitterly.
I don't think there was anything to comfort her. She was completely alone and felt betrayed and persecuted by all of us.

She was not afraid of death at all. She welcomed it. She was so weary and so infinitely exhausted, it seemed as though she had to suffer every human indignity, every weakness, every failure that she had resisted and conquered so daringly during her whole life-as though she were being punished for being too strong and powerful and disciplined and almost immune to human frailty."

And, of course, it was her wonderful David who was insisting on further tests to try to help her! What an irony that these two beloved friends were at odds during their last days together!

This, hopefully, does not happen today does it? We have hospices and I know from personal experience from friends that have used hospice that a dying person's wishes can be fulfilled and a person can die in peace.

I'm taking both books back to the Library today as I'm picking up the book that all the citizens of Columbus are reading this month - A LESSON BEFORE DYING by Ernest Gaines (I think I have it right). Am looking forward to reading it.

later - ella