I just saw a CNN interview of Catherine Graham (Sun P.M. 8 Mar). It was essentially a scan of the book. They didn't cover anything not in the text.

Best

LJ

I'm surprised at how good this book is, and how well written, (it was a little daunting at first view, but it's GOOD)...am looking forward to the discussion.

Ginny

Oh, good, we'll have 2 people discussing it! (and 2 of the best, I might add). So glad you like the book Ginny - it was a "can't-put-down-book" for me, but then I like good autobiographies. And she had such an interesting life - far different from the average - her parents' problems, husband's alcoholism, and then with no business experience, she had to take over the Washington Post - and she did a darn good job of it!

Ella, which of the three of us are you not counting???

Best

LJ

You'll notice I said just "two of the best" - there are many more "bests" out there (you just leave me out of this!) Coming here to help us discuss Kay Graham's book I hope. Am putting questions up there today

WELL, I WAS GOING TO!!! AM MISSING AN EDIT BUTTON - CAN SOMEONE PUT ONE IN FOR ME, PLEASE???

OK, Ella, you should see it now. It said it didn't have an Access list but got its names from the B&L. Larry and Pat have had to put me on a million of them, don't know why.

Ginny

Opened the Washington Post this morning and found some great articles and an interview with KG after winning a Pulitzer for her memoir. Who chose this selection? Was it you, LJ? Thought you might enjoy them as your local papers may not celebrate this news as the Post has...

Pulitzer Announcement


Proof is in the Pulitzer


A Post Review of the book by Jill Ker Conway (!)

KG will be interviewed on NPR's Fresh Air today. It is on in the afternoon here in the Bay Area.

HEAVENS TO BETSY!!! FOR DAYS AND DAYS I HAVE POSTED AROUND AND NO ONE HAS TOLD ME THAT I MISSPELLED "WATERGATE" - WHAT KIND OF FRIENDS ARE YOU ANYWAY!!!

Got an email today from ???? informing me of the misspelling and I do thank ??? (haven't seen that name before). I'm so embarassed!

Now I see I even misspelled it in the heading - I'll use that worn-out excuse of "age is not becoming."

Where is the button patrol, so that I can get the "Edit Discussion" back - correct my mistake!

Hi-- I thought I might put my two cents worth in here. I have been lurking around here for awhile and feel pretty inadequate as far as being a book critic. I listened to this book last summer on my way to a family reunion in Ireland and it helped me sleep on the plane on the way. I re-read the book when I got back home and was not any more impressed with it. So, I will probably be just an "on-looker" for most of this discussion. I find it hard to have a lot of sympathy for someone of Ms. Graham's stature. She was born and has lived her entire life with a golden spoon in her mouth. Granted, some of the things she accomplished in later life were pretty great, but the whole tone of the book came across to me as a "we are above the average person" attitude.

Theresa

You all cheated...you have been pre-posting! I just checked in to see what was going on here when I noticed that TODAY was to be the opening salvo. EEgaads... I just started reading the book and the phrase "name dropper" has a whole new meaning! So far so good, I have not quite finished chapter one yet However, I did read the acknowledgments,which were considerable and worth reading just to get an idea of how much help one gets with a task of this magnitude. Even though she chose not to employ a co-author, she got an enormous amount of assistance.

Saw her being interviewed on CNN after winning the Pulitzer, and I agree she didn't have too much to say that was memorable.

Looking forward to the read.

Yay, Helen and Theresa! Yay!! You don't have to like the book to chat about it, this will make our discussions exciting, I bet Ella is thrilled. I like both your perspectives.

There's a lot to say about these first chapters, and the "golden spoon" Theresa spoke of is certainly in evidence. So is the name dropping. I think she just does manage to carry it off, tho. Here is a childhood remembrance, O, and of course Joseph Alsop and...and....and...were there! One has to stop and gulp and say, WHO??

And, yes, I did feel just a little pinge, a tiny pinge of....don't know what you'd call it, but such luminaries were not and are not of my circle. Still, it's interesting to know how they behave.

Sadly, sometimes it's only the money and the connections which allow them to roll in such exalted ways.

I was all caught up with the mother for a bit, till I saw her photos as a grown woman, most decidely not attractive, and her habits became less and less so. Talk about the Royals neglecting their children! Found I very much dislike the mother, but need to go back and look again at the first two chapters to see where we are.

Ginny: I'm only 1/2 way thru, myself.

Hi, I am fairly new to SeniorRoundTables, I have been reading about KG and seen several interviews. I have also read several magazine articles. I am definitely going to read the book. The main experience that I have received from KG so far, is that most of our lives are a journey of learning from our birth environment, to our educational environment, to our work environment, and to our social environment. I have glanced through the book, and I have noticed that she has shared the main components of her learning experience in all of those areas. I plan to pass this book, along with its wealth of knowledge on how to overcome life's challenges, regrets, and mistakes, and turn them into success, to my granddaughters (grandsons can benefit too). MaryK in southern Cal

Well !! To ansewer at least one question. I suspect her father's unwillingness to be Bar M<itzvahed was a manifestation of an unwillingness to conform and accept "Tradition" fully and without intellectual reservation. It possibly is a trait of character independance which might well have influenced our protagonist throughout her life.

The "Gold Spoon" problem is one common to this social stratum and should not be held against them. The Bingham's of Louisville, and Adlat Stevenson were of the same cloth. The former had all the family problems that the rest of us had and the latter was good enough to merit his party's nomination for president more than once. (The Democratic party at that) I might add that the Kennedys and their adjunct families fall into the same group.

I thought that although KG maintained a bit of aloofness throughout her life that she made more of an effort to understand and accept the rest of us than many if not most ladies of her generation (Whether wealthy or not)

Best

LJ

WELCOME TO ALL Isn't this just great! And we need everybody's opinion, negative or positive - that's exactly what makes a good discussion!

I can understand the attitude that she is a "name dropper" and not the sort that most of us encounter in our daily lives, but the fact that she wasn't the "average" makes her all the more interesting to me - sort of a peek into how the other half live.

Would any of you have known that the name "Meyer" was Jewish? I don't know where I've been all my life, but I don't recognize names as being of this ethnic group or that - well, at least most of the time. Might recognize a Polakaski! Had an acquaintance of many years whose name was Quinn and didn't know he was Jewish. Why didn't Eugene Meyer change his name if he was so bothered by anti-semitism? In the Felsenthal book, the author said Eugene, early in life, was determined to marry a "wasp." Hate those expresssions!

"Meier" is the yiddish word for "Mister", but polikanski is merely polish and does not indicate whether its nominee is Jewish, catholic (or anything else, for that matter) I strongly expect that there are some "Meiers" who are NOT Jewish.

Best

LJ

Hi LJ: Meier means Mister? So his name would be Mister ???? Yes, I would think that many Meyers, Myers, Meijers (a popular store around here) would not be Jewish. You are right about Polanski - does not indicate a religious preference at all. I came from a small town and to my knowledge there were only 2 Jewish families in it - my sister dated the baker's son and my partner on the debate team was my very good friend and became a Harvard Professor - we have written off and on. Had no idea there was anti-semitism anywhere - never heard the word until WW II came along.

Names are strange. Paul in Greek is "Apostole", the the "Apostle paul" is redundant. (Apostole Apostole)

Best

LJ

I am finding this book provides a view of life that I have never known and never will. I was a little startled to read that Katherine's folks were basically away from them for 4 years during the early year's of Katherine's life. It seemed that the image she protrays of her Mother is one of a pretty selfish person who was going to do things her own way. I had not heard of the positions with the SEC and other Governmental agencies that her Father had during her early life.

Larry

Please Note:

Just to clarify...I did not mean "name dropper" in a derogatory way.

Rather I was totally AWED by the personalities referred to right from the very beginning. As I recall, Picasso was dismissed in a one liner as, "superficially clever" and she (KG's mother) took fencing lessons twice a week at the same time with none other than Madame Curie, who she saw as the only woman in Paris she admired and judged worthy of emulation. A definite WOW!

Heln - Yes, awed and startled by some of the names. If I had thought of Madame Curie at all, I would probably have placed her in that long ago and far away history/science course in high school.

But most of the people that KG talks about in the book are people of our era that we were reading about - people making the news. The Roosevelts, Deweys, Adlai Stevenson, Barnard Baruch, etc. I found these personal observations absolutely fascinating. It is inevitable that her mother and she both would come in contact with such people since the family owned the influential Washington Post and Eugene Meyer was very wealthy.

What did you think of Eugene paying for a trip abroad for a friend of her mother's before they were married in order that she may have a companion to travel with? Some guy!

Both of them married for the wrong reasons, in my opinion. She married Eugene because of his wealth and his ability to pay off her family's indebtedness, and he married a charming ambitious gentile. Her descriptions of her parents are less than loving. Her mother's self-absorption, father's unapproachability, and yet, both had qualities that I think Kay admired, and, to some degree, wished she had inherited. Kay is very self-deprecating throughout the book, don't you agree?

hi ella i willo try againto get a message to you. got home ok and had supper. just resting. gotta get into your book discussion here sooner or later

"The more we liked something, the better it was for our soul's salvation". I recall that attitude as applied to medicine. i.e. the worse it tastes the better it is for you.

Best

LJ

Jeannie - you got on by yourself? Great! Now you must get in this conversation and talk about this book with us! We both liked it so well. There are others here who are finding it interesting too, but not everybody! Which is fine - you and I disagree on a lot of books don't we? This book put one lady to sleep on a plane - she was listening to it on tape.

Hi, LJYour comment brings to mind the "spring tonic" forced down when I was a child. That cod liver oil was supposed to be good for me, too! How awful it was.

But to return to KG - on page 48, she states "Children watch and listen to their parents, sometimes critically, but sometimes unquestioningly." And then goes on to talk about the habits that rubbed off on her - mentioning the tendency to be "tight." Have read about other very wealthy people being very tight with their money, too, off-hand, think of J. Paul Getty, who installed a pay phone in his residence to keep guests from running up long distance bills.

But - KG thinks the habit of "turning off every light at night before I go to bed" is a tiny economy. We've always done that - doesn't everybody??? Well, except for when my husband is not home at night - then I get very extravagant with lights!!!

Am I going to slow? Is everyone way ahead now? Finished with the book?

WHERE DID ALL THE READERS GO? Reminds of the 60's song "Where did all the flowers go?" Long time ago - something like that. It was a sad song during the Vietnam Era, but can't remember the words.

Come in someone and say where you are in the book - Shall we go to page 125 and talk about her young adult years and marriage to Phil? A crucial decision in her life.

I think it was one of those songs associated with "The Chad Mitchell Trio" or "Peter Paul and Mary" or both. Many of the songs those two groups did overlapped.

Best

LJ

Hi LJ: You're listening in aren't you? Do you remember the rest of the words?

Of course I'm listening in. I've read the book, think it's great, and am reviewing along with the group.

I remember the tune quite well, but the rest of the words have flown my dwindling collection of memory cells.

Best

LJ

Good evening, I remember all of the words,--I think--but maybe somewhere else would be better for posting them---I'm on page 275..Started a while ago, but got sidetracked,--as so often happens!! Obviously Katharine, in spite of being used to the world of, letters, art, and poitics, was a very naive young lady when it came to the so called real people, and real world.--I think that made Phil more interesting, and "exotic" for her.----I never knew that Bob Graham, was related to her.--And I have met him several times. I wonder how many people are reminding him about the spitting? !!----Good book, and I am enjoying it a lot. It never fails to AMAZE me, that people can remember these verbatim conversations!!---I sure don't!!

JOAN - THANKS FOR THAT! But the song brought tears, had to turn it off. Don't know why I brought that up!

PUTNEY I can see we are going to slowly! Shall I speed it up like to half-way through the book? LJ - what do you think?

Ella, I'm here. I read two chapters this morning and just reached chapter five. My vote is not to speed it up, but obviously whatever you guys decide will reign. This is not a quick reader. I am enjoying it very much but there is a great deal of content to chew on,famous names,historical events and of course the characters who play the central parts in our story.

Oh boy, I just looked back at the list of questions...Phil and Kay haven't even met yet. I'm still thinking about her relationship with her mother. But I've got to run now. More about this when I can get back.

I think I agree with Helen. There is a lot to digest.!--She knew absolutly everyone!, and most of them well, not just to nod to.--As with Bob Graham, I have had fun looking up some of the people, or remembering some that I hadn't thought of in a very long time.--Sure makes you appreciate how we are all "six degrees" from EVERYBODY. !

I was really shocked when I read that Senator Bob Graham was a half-brother to Katharine Graham's husband. Politics and newspapers, especially in the Washington, D.C. area just go hand-in-hand.

While Katharine discusses her Mother in somewhat negative terms, she was obviously a woman who marched to her own drummer and lived life the way she wanted. She knew many famous and interesting people in the arts and literature communities. I found her fascination with and collection of Japanese art an interesting sidelight.

It also sounded like Katharine's Father was not badly hurt by the depression. He must have had the foresight to have avoided the losses in the stock market, which is ironic since he was so closely associated with the stock market and the SEC.

Larry

I'm not a whole lot further into it than anybody else. I would say she tremendously underplays her affluent childhood. There's no way anybody would refer to or think of that fortress as "the farm." THAT is no "green acres." She's not writing this as a child. A little too much protesting, perhaps.

Also thought the sweater thing was telling: she kept right on wearing the same sweater, as nobody had told her it should be washed. THAT rings true, I can understand that, and thought it was a very poignant remembrance.

Need to read on to just keep up!

Ginny

What did youall think of the "Calling Card" ritual??? I remember reading instructions for that sort of thing in a (Now obsolete - I think) manual for "New" officers. about 35 years ago. I thought it was probably obsolete back even then.

Best

LJ

LJ, I wonder if it isn't this type of ritual and procedure that adds structure to life where there isn't a need to do much related to survival. It is also a way that someone came up with to make people conform to their way of doing things. Isn't our society full of similar things such as having events annually whether there is either a need or desire to do so because we have always done it that way!

Larry

Larry: "isn't a need to do much related to survival" - an apt description of this family. Eugene Meyer provided for them very well. Sometimes I think this can bode well for society, as wealthy people oftentimes turn to helping people in some fashion or other; establishing foundations, homes for troubled people, etc. But, as I recall, the Graham family did not - but perhaps I've forgotten, as I remember Eugene's plan was to spend the last 20 years of his life "devoted to public service." (the first 20 was "school," next 20 years was "competence" - an organized man!

Do any of you take the NY Times? Sunday's paper had, in the NY Times Magazine, a section on fabulous properties, an ad by both Christies and Sotheby's as well as others, and on page 92, you guessed it, I recognized it immediately: the FARM.

"Seven Springs", Mt. Kisco.

Huge color photo.

"In 1917, the Meyer family (whose patriarch transformed the Washington Post into a preeminent national newspaper) commissioned famed architect Charles Platt to build 'Seven Springs,' a Georgia- style mansion on 200 pstoral acres.....etc.etc."

Now owned by Donald Trump, bought in 1996 for $7.5 million from Sotheby's. There is a circular foundtain and formal walled gardens, reflecting pool, Orangerie, three apple orchards, greenhouse, working farm complex, two barns, forest, separate 75 year old Tudor style residence with 7 bedrooms, 4 baths, staff quarters, it's own formal gardens, terraced lawns, and private tennis court.

"But why would anyone want to leave the main house with its 14 bedrooms or suites, front to back 50 foot long entrance hall, indoor swimming pool, hand-carved marble fireplaces in each room, wine cellar, sunroom, mahogany-paneled study, library, and bowling alley, slate roof, dentil molding, floor to ceiling french doors, stately pillars..."

Friends, this is NOT your average farmhouse. I don't remember the name either??

Somebody has ruined the front door. There's a tacky little lanai built over it, but I guess you could take it off.

Doesn't it make you sad to see the grand old houses go?

Ginny

Ginny, I had to reread your posting to be sure you weren't describing your farm house! Yes, it sounds like those young Meyer kids really had to rough it.

I was reading the part of the book last evening that described the extreme problems Katharine had dealing with the children on the servant's day off. I felt so sorry for her, especially when I thought of my wife caring for two little ones only 15 months apart all on her own. Of course she had been taught how to do some of the basic necessities of life. I guess growing up in extreme wealth brings its own set of problems.

Larry

The poor children were never invited to their neighbors homes or asked to join the wasp country club--- Till it went broke.

I had a cousin who tried to buy the WASP stronghold in Louisville, Churchill Downs. He failed, but someone asked him if he were now going after the "Louisville Country Club" (An almost equally WASP encampment) His answer. "Never - There's no money in it"

Best

LJ

Where are we as a group in the book ??

Ginny - If that "farm" sold for 7.5 mil. in '96, it's probably 10 mil by now. Perhaps Bill Gates should take notice - he needs a weekend place nearer the seat of government and the Big Apple than he now has. He could always put his cadre of lobbyists up there for the weekends.

LJ - we seem to be everywhere in the book. People are reading at their own pace, but I do the same at times, don't you?

Let's stick with the above until this weekend and then I'll put up another schedule, O.K?

We are all having a bit of fun with the Graham wealth, but there were so many others with huge fortunes at the time also. I think KG is trying to underplay that aspect of her life just a bit, but recognizes that it must be dealt with in the book; also, I think she admires the ability of her father and wants to do him justice. She dedicates the book to her parents and children, so, although, she is ambivalent in her attitude towards both, she did appreciate the unusual qualities both possessed.

Hahahah! Larry!! RIGHT! That's what I was secretly doing, describing our humble $10 mil farmhouse! You caught me! Pillars and all.

I have nothing against inherited wealth, SOMEBODY somewhere worked for it. I can't help contrasting this book with the Cold Mountain in which Armageddon seems to have descended, and nobody knows how to do anything either.

THEN when you contrast that with the Romans a thousand years ago, you REALLY wonder.

So does wealth produce ineffectual unskilled people unfit for anything but intellectual persuits?

Ginny

Chapter six coming up next…that in response to the question.

Loved the piece about the visit to Brancusi where they ran into Matisse'son Pierre and all sat around on big chunks of white marble, with white "place mats" eating "white food". In most respects she really lived on another planet (for better and for worse).

As for Kay and her" self absorbed" mother. I get a very strong sense of resentment from her in the reading to date. However, I think once again that's her take now, looking backward, I would think as a child she felt more puzzlement, rejection , abandonment, unworthiness, and all those other nasty things that don't help us feel very good about ourselves as we strive to make it in this already tough enough world, money or not. (Yea, Yea, I know…better with the money, I agree)

Her relationship with her father is another discussion for another time, have to run now.

Later

I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with the Meyer's having a lot of money and using it as they saw fit. I just felt some lack of compassion with her inability to deal with the things that almost all of us have to deal with in the course of daily life.

Her parents were certainly achievers and appear to have been very hard working people. They were involved with many influential and talented people and must have had a very interesting life. One thing I have particularly noticed is her reference to the many "good friends" she has and had at the early stages of her marriage. I wondered if these are mainly acquaintances or actual friends. O course, I understand that their social life status would have involved them with many different people and thus provided the opportunity to have a wide array of friends. It must also have been a very educational experience to have met and had the opportunity to know so many different people in such varied fields of endeavor.

Larry

Only have time for a frivolous frolic! I thought someone would have mentioned the HOPE DIAMOND and where (page 55, I think) it used to be! Some seniornetters conducted a search for it about a month or so ago, and discovered it finally in the Smithsonian! Now where was it between then and now? Another treasure hunt!!!!

One more thing - On the news last night they mentioned that an apartment in NYC costs about $1 mil. today - Mt. Kisco (the farm) doesn't sound bad compared to that. Think of all you get at the farm!

Ginny - before you buy that farm, be sure it has a vineyard. Am not sure NY is the right place for one, and you would certainly miss that pruning you do! hehehehe

It's too small for me, Ella, and the lanai would have to go, too. No, too small and rustic! ahhahahahah

Ginny

Hey Ella, Careful how you speak about New York. We have a flourishing wine industry here on Long Island started some twenty five years ago. Wineries all over the place. See you never know...it's that stereotyping again! Ha HA from New York.

Don't forget the wineries in the Finger Lakes area, too.

I'm sorry - have been rather neglectful of my "duties" here as a volunter discussion leader. It's a good thing you cannot get fired from this position.

Before we leave that last part, however, I do want to quote an episode (pg. 123). "We were playing doubles and Phil missed an easy shot. I said "Oh, well they say he has a fine mind." Shortly afterwards, I missed one. Phil retorted, "And they say her family spent millions on her game." KG describes this as a "hilarious exchange." In light of what comes next in this marriage, don't you think this attitude of Phil's toward KG's money is a portent of problems to come?

At the bottom of pg. 181 KG explains their financial arrangements in the marriage and says: "This arrangement was never an issue; it didn't bother either of us." And she goes on to say that looking back, this was a mistake. Why didn't she see this at the very beginning? I do believe that in those times when the "male figure was dominant in a family" she should have realized this, don't you?

How would this financial arrangement in a marriage play today?

I am pretty certain that the Hope Diamond has been in the museum for many years as recall seeing it there probably 20 years ago at least since haven't been back to the Smithsonian since. It was a dazzler.

I am not sure the money issue still isn't a problem in many marriages, particularly where there is such wide gap between the type of upbringing exists. Perhaps the expectations of society have caused some change in this as it is more acceptable for the wife to earn the higher salary. Perhaps in another generation or two this will no longer be a problem. I gleaned from the book that Katharine didn't use any of her money when they married until it was time to buy a house. I thought it was interesting that she bought all of those clothes before getting married to avoid a problem with Phil not being able to afford new clothes for her and not wanting to spend her own money as she saw it would create a problem.

In his early years in Washington and before the marriage Phil was apparently able to live on a pretty high scale by sharing the house with several friends and by having wealthy friends.

Larry

I finished Personal History last night.--Will try to keep a SMALL part of all those pages in my head, as book has to go back to library to-day.--Can say I enjoyed and/or learned from most of it tho.--

PUTNEY - you just renew that book and come back into this discussion! We need your input!! But I was like yourself - enjoyed it very much.

Larry - I agree money is very much a problem in marriages - but are you saying that you don't think it would matter much if the man lived off his wife's salary - or if the wife made more than he did?

On page 181, KG says "On my part, in order to help Phil pay back the debt he incurred in borrowing to buy the stock, ..... I volunteered to pay for all our living expenses-houses, cars, schools, entertainment-and did so." I think that had to bother Phil - in those days, it just wasn't done! Don't you think this had, to a large degree, some bearing on the many problems they had?

Ella, I think in this day and age whichever spouse has the better job should contribute the most to the financial standing of the home. I have a friend who stayed home and cared for the children as his wife was a CPA (he was a teacher) and she could support the family. He seemed to adjust to the situation very well and truly loved having the time with the children as they were in the infant and beyond stages. A couple of years ago she was transferred to Finland and he continues to be a house Dad. However, when we had our children the idea of the man not supporting the family was certain a foreign one to me. Today my views have changed, I think.

Larry

Most of us who date to the late 20's and early 30's have had to "Change" with the times. K.G. did it, and she did it well. The disposition of the Washington Post was handled much better than the breakup of other family dynasties especially in this part of the country where "Old" traditional family ideas about male dominance resulted in the destruction of both family, dynasty, and some very talented management, to say nothing of the paper itself.

We are fortunate that K.G. was able to grow with the times, and that she kept such extensive personal notes which she has so impartially rendered in this book.

Best

LJ

Larry: Have read of house-husbands, never knew one. It just wasn't done in our age, of course. Are you saying that one parent should stay home with the children while they are young? Did this husband of whom you were speaking go back to work when the children obtained school age? What do you think of children raised in day care centers? I know of several in my family and the children have done as well as those who had a parent at home. Still and all, I considered myself fortunate in being able to spend those days with my children and being there when they came home from school.

LJ: We are getting ahead here, but what the heck - some have finished the book. Due to Eugene Meyer's foresight in giving the paper to just one of his children (even though it was unevenly done - topic of another conversation)I think he prevented those problems you spoke about. He compensated the other children even though KG seems to imply somewhat unfairly. Other immense fortunes are evenly divided among all the heirs, fragmenting the fortune. We could speak of the Kennedys (who just sold the Chicago Mart???), but should stay on the subject, shouldn't we?

In one of the books I read of KG, Supreme Court Justice Frankfurter, one of Phil and KG's lifetime friends, was in daily contact with FDR and would bring news back to the "goon squad" as Phil's group was known. This was at the time the young men were all living together in a rented house. They felt very much "in the know" as I'm sure they were, as the nation prepared itself for war in the late '30's. Or, perhaps, I should say, as FDR was trying to prepare the nation for war.

At the outset of Chap.10 I wondered if Kaye felt she'd failed in a crisis simply because she fled to avoid a long/emotional "Farewell" to her husband, or because her slip was showing.

Those early experiences inthe army and small town mid-America make Kaye sound so "Human" but even then, she was runing into "BIG" stories. The Donald Mclean spy ring is worth two or three books in itself.

That her mother in '46 was charging that the radio and film industries were causing a progressive vulgarization of the public mind and a debasement of public morals is humerous by today's standards

Its noteworthy that she (Kaye) wrote for the Courier and Times (The Bingham empire)

I'll try to keep within the current assignment, and will have more to say about this one.

Best

LJ

I'm staying on the downside of p.224 and still feel as though I'm raceing to keep up. I see you plan to post a schedule which should help loads. I'm following eight discussions right now and it rather confusing, but I just completed a list and that should help.

I wanted to comment on the "Mint Julep" which is very deceptive as Kate pointed out. Actually the "Purists" Mint Julep is indeed only shaved ice, Bourbon and mint. There are however many variations, the most deceptive of which follows.(On second thought I'll put it in our recipe file in our upcoming book)

The Prichard affair is well summarized. Kentucky, known to the Indians as "Dark and Bloody Ground" has always been among the most blatantly crooked political bastions in the country. We are always wondering if there are two or less legislatures in the country with more recent shootings. Kaye's evaluation of Senator Cooper was indeed accurate. For a Kentucky polititian he was exceptional. (He was one of my references at the post-graduate level)

Best

LJ

KG is truly a woman of her time. It is clear to me that she learned to handle power from a laid back approach, which was the only type that was acceptable for women at that time. The subtly with which she dealt with power, is in her own words. For example, she gave her husband credit (acceptable at the time), but I since that she was the power behind him. If one really listens to her, one can see a dominating trait in her personality. She continually makes the point that she did not know the news business, and had to learn it. In addition, she down plays her own talent which is characteristic of women in her generation even though they demonstrate great knowledge, talent, and intelligence. I saw my own mother do this. It was difficult for women to admit their attributes because it was not proper for them to compete with men or their husbands. It paid off for her in the long run because she was able to take over the Wall Street Journal and make it great. MaryK in southern Cal

Mary - you are so right. It was true of generations of women to downplay their own talents and to "pump up the ego" of their husbands and male friends. Best to stay in the background and be the audience - I believe Kay felt that was her role with her husband. But anyone married to Phil would have had to stay in the background, I think. He was apparently very likeable, excellent conversationalist, witty and all the rest. And arrogant and conceited, too! As you will later see in the book when he becomes cruel and verbally abusive to Kay.

LJ - how do you do that - contribute to so many books at one time? Compartmentalize your mind (reminiscent of Jefferson, that phrase!)? Don't remember that McClean spy story - must go back and reread a bit. There's so much in this book that we could take it chapter by chapter couldn't we? Incidentally, how much time do we have to spend on this book? Shall I hurry us through it or can we just wander as we may? Yes, will put up a time frame - will have to ask Larry to do it - haven't reached that level of expertise yet.

And must also refresh my memory of Senator Cooper and Kentucky in the book, how can I forget so much? A friend whose first love is horses was telling us all about the ancestry of "Real Quiet" I think it was - he mentioned you must have 3 things at the Ky. Derby - the mint juleps, tears in your eyes when you sing "My Olde Kentucky Home" (probably silly-drunk people), and be of the "olde blood" in the racing capital of the world.

As I remember though, Kay always kept on writing or getting jobs at newspapers - it was a constant thing in her life, even though the jobs were very important ones. Almost as if she knew she might need that knowledge someday!

Remember Pritch, though, Phil's brilliant friend. Sad story.

I know - I'm getting too windy here!! But 2 things I wanted to comment on. In the acknowledgements Kay stated that she conducted 250 interviews with people in the process of writing this book. Imagine that!! Interviewing people about your own life to get the story right! I don't even know 250 people!

And she also stated that she pored over old letters - well, the future generation won't be able to do that - who writes letters anymore?? And I think of all the books that have been published on correspondence of so-n-so.

There's no rush, We can go at our own pace, We don't have a time limit.

I'd suggest you divide the book into segments, decide when to begin the next segment and "Suggest" (At least a week) a frame at which point another segment may start.

My approach to the "Club" is to get ahead and then try to stay there. I've read all the books under discussion (Except some of the Fiction) and have and am reading the ones presently scheduled to be discussed. Now its a matter of "Scanning" to review as the books are discussed. It took me over a year to get to this point. but I've been able to read a few non-club books and hopefully as I finish them I'll be able to recommend them to the club. After having been stung once or twice, I don't like to recommend a book before I've read it.

Of course I don't read ahead in the "Great Books" folder.

By the way, the McClain spy story is British and there are a number of "Old" books written about it

Best

LJ

I really goofed earlier. I realized that I wrote the Wall Street Journal when I should have said the Washington Post. I bet you all noticed. MaryK in southern Cal.

Hi Everyone, Did you get my correction of the wrong News paper for KG? MaryK in southern Cal

Hi All, Good point about the charm and personality of KG's husband, Ella. I goofed when I said the Wall Street Journal. I meant the Washington Post. Another thing, that you made mention of Ella, is the 250 interviews she made which tells me she had a strong sense of self, anyway. I am not sure I would want to hear what that many people would tell me. I love this woman! MaryK in southern Cal.

I just thought it was a "Lapsis Lingua" and you were referring to the Newsmagazine The Post owned.

Best

LJ

Mary - I noticed, but I make so many myself, cannot cast any stones! Just happy you are enjoying the book and contributing to our conversation. You'll noticed I said "important" jobs, when I meant "unimportant" jobs that KG had on various newspapers. My fingers just do not work in conjunction with the brain.

Mary - I agree she had strong personality traits of her own - she did disagree with Phil over Eisenhower, preferring Stevenson, as one example. Remember McCarthism - those troublesome times in our history. Quoting from pg. 204 - "He made outrageous charges .......just before newspaper and tv deadlines so that all that got on the front page or the air..." One of the early people to use the press to his advantage, many would copy this technique later. KG said he was a new phenomenon with which the press had to learn to cope.

LJ - since we have time, have highlighted the pages above and will put up current pages from time to time, O.K?

Had she listened to her brother's warning about Phil (pg.121), life for her may have been vastly different. Any comments (pg.l22) on the arguments preceding her wedding?

I think Phil's brother, whether fully aware of it or not, was telling Katy that her new husband was an alcoholic.

Best

LJ

LJ - She was so in love with Phil at the time that nothing could have stopped this lady. I think even to this day, there's that feeling of loving him, even after all she went through with him, don't you?

MARY, HELEN, LARRY, WHO AM I LEAVING OUT? Do you have any comments about this section before we travel on to the difficult part of KG's life?

Ella: I'm here but...

I am afraid I bit off more than I have time to chew. Just got home from work and am going to try to finish reading up to page 224! I am panicking at the thought that you are moving on to the next portion already, am also trying to keep up with "Cold Mountain". Afraid I am giving neither one it's full due, but don't want to give either one up as they are both such a good read. I don't know how you guys keep up. Tell me your secret. When we were reading the Odyssey and doing regular book club I kept up. Were we doing smaller patches of reading at a time? I don't remember. Off I go to do my reading.

Ella, I haven't found time to read much for a couple of days and don't think I am beyond page 224, so wouldn't mind just a few more days before we move on. However, you are the boss.

Larry

Yes, she was and undoubtedly remained intensely in "Love" but time and experience taught her a lot about his imperfections. We all have imperfections as do our mates. Some are more serious and glaring than others.

Best

LJ

I have finally finished reading the sections indicated. I am reminded that the type of reading this book requires takes much longer than the usual piece of fiction. There is so much history, so many fascinating details, so much insider information and or gossip if you will, about highly significant events and personalities of our lifetime, that for me it is difficult to speed it up or scan parts of the material. It mostly fascinates me. It vividly enriches what I already knew about certain of these happenings and the parts familiar names played in them.

I chuckled at the remark she makes about her life seeming to be a prosaic one to those looking on. Can you imagine travelling in that world, being privy to and active in all that she was and still feeling that her peers saw her life as dull or boring?

The more I read about her mother the more I find her to be an admirable woman …certainly not as the mother of young children. But I see her as a woman way ahead of her time. She was quite remarkable in her interests and her determination to pursue them. Perhaps her ability to get along so well with Phil is because not only did they admire one another but they were stripped of the emotional baggage that comes between mother and daughter. In my opinion Kay had every right to have some strong negative feeling towards her mother, even though she tries to be even handed in her reporting, I feel the resentment from her and I guess from myself after reading Kay's account of her childhood.

As others have indicated that they also are having to speed along in order to keep up, is it possible that we could cut the amount of pages for each week? What do you think?

This is the THIRD time today I am posting this message. it seems to go in and then when I return to the folder...whoosh..it's not there! Que pasa?

I have finally finished reading the sections indicated. I am reminded that the type of reading this book requires takes much longer than the usual piece of fiction. There is so much history, so many fascinating details, so much insider information and or gossip if you will, about highly significant events and personalities of our lifetime, that for me it is difficult to speed it up or scan parts of the material. It mostly fascinates me. It vividly enriches what I already knew about certain of these happenings and the parts people played in them.

I chuckled at the remark she makes about her life seeming to be a prosaic one to those looking on. Can you imagine travelling in that world, being privy to and active in all that she was and still feeling that her peers saw her life as dull or boring?

The more I read about her mother the more I find her to be an admirable woman …certainly not as the mother of young children. But I see her as a woman way ahead of her time. She was quite remarkable in her interests and her determination to pursue them. Perhaps her ability to get along so well with Phil is because not only did they admire one another but they were stripped of the emotional baggage that comes between mother and daughter. In my opinion Kay had every right to have some strong negative feeling towards her mother, even though she tries to be even handed in her reporting, I feel the resentment from her and I guess from myself after reading Kay's account of her childhood.

As I don't seem to be the only one having a difficult time keeping up with reading for more than one folder is it possible that we could shorten the weekly reading load? Anybody else interested in doing so…what think you Ella?

Helen, I'm counting TWO posts from you, but, as always, they are a delight!

Ginny

Gin:

Thanks so much for checking it out. It will continue to remain a mystery to me. When I would try to delete the second post, they both went WHOOSH. I have been posting for a couple of years now so I thought I knew how to do it by now. Oh well,adds a little mystery to the day.

HELEN! LARRY! ALL READING THIS BOOK! TAKE YOUR TIME, ENJOY

LJ , our host for this discussion has given us permission to take all the time we want! And we'll just do that. I realize there is so much in this book of interest, particularly I think, to people of our generation - or students of history. A personal insight from one who was in the middle of these remarkable times in the country's history.

Helen - I do, indeed, agree that KG's mother was a remarkable personality - very strong willed, and determined to make a mark on history in her own way. I also can understand KG's resentment, as you said, of her mother - the criticism she received, the neglect as a child, etc. But children often criticize parents as they are growing up, and end up forgiving them their human traits - I think KG has done this throughout the book - or maybe, she is trying to be fair to her? Very ambivalent in her emotions about both parents, don't you think?

It seems to me that Katharine is really rather had on herself in this part of the book, emphasizing how she was being diminished by the actions of her business, but didn't consciously realize it at the time.

Larry

Not realy a collision but a meshing of books is to be encountered between K.G.'s "Personal History" and "Making the Mummies Dance" starting on P 113 of the latter. It describes K.G. from an outsider's point of view during the period shortly following here husband's demise.

Best

LJ

As LJ has mentioned, we've run across Katharine Graham in Thomas Hoving's book Making The Mummies Dance which we're currently reading in the History Book Club. She went with the Hovings on the Wrightsman's chartered boat for 2 months, and I don't think she and Hoving got along:

" Katharine Graham was an intense woman with a tight smile who seemed nervous from the moment we met her..." and later, when Hoving had made a point about the Beatles, "Kay Graham winced and kept her smile fixed firmly in place."

Later when she had returned from her meeting with Marshall Tito, Wrightsman remarked in an offhand way that "maybe Mrs. Graham was being 'taken advantage of' by Tito because of her powerful position in ther press. She bristled and reacted sharply, crying out, 'Oh, Charlie! It was my request, a legitimate interview. Really! ' But I could see she was wounded by his remark--it was not long after the tragic death of her husband and before she had demonstrated her own journalistic skills. There was a deadly silence...I don't think Kay Graham ever forgave Charlie for his remark. But she admired Jayne (Wrightsman's wife whom Hoving thought was a pale Jackie Kennedy imitation and an "act,") and Deeda Blair, wife of the ambassador Bill Blair. When Nancy [Hoving's wife} remarked about the frivolousness of Jayne's and Deeda's conversation, Graham retorted, ' You and I could learn a lot from women like that!'"

In her autobiography, I don't see her as tense or tight lipped, but apparently there is more to her than we know.

If I see any more about her, will bring it here, too.

Ginny

I wondered at Hoving's comment regarding the "Beetles" album. I assumed it simply meant that she didn't appreciate the "Lowbrow" music. (At that time, I'd have probably stared at my plate with a definite frown).

Best

LJ

Thanks LJ and Ginny for telling us of those comments about KG. Interesting that another book that SN clubbers are reading would mention her also. You two are remarkable (and Helen, too) in that you can read all these books at the same time. I don't find the time - spring chores outside and in are keeping me somewhat occupied, best I think to try this in the winter.

I think Kay was always a very sensitive person to criticism and didn't seem to forget! Perhaps this is because of the man she married who was always humiliating her and, also, perhaps because of her parents' attitude toward her. She comments several times that she has always had low self-esteem.

As for the Beetles' music, I like it now, but at the time I would have frowned on it as KG did because the young people play their music so very loud! They still do!! Why do you suppose?

Helen - I sent you an email about those posts - BUT WE DON'T CARE IF YOU POST 5 TIMES! Love your insights about KG and her life. We all remember these times she is discussing - just fascinating to think of them again! Had to smile at your "gaslighting" comment, funny! Remember that movie?

Of course WE remember the movie!!! It made "Gaslighting" an accepted part of our language.

Best

LJ

Hi Gang;

Ginny I enjoyed your post re "Mummies",(great timing for an overlap) and that is kind of how I would have expected Kay to present. What was it ,"tight lipped and tense". It was Phil who had the wit, energy and humor. Kay tells us that she believed herself to be boring and dull and thought their friends were their friends because of his magnetism,she deferred to him in everything. Don't you think it was because her friends saw what was happening to her that they threw a party in her honor to "Salute Kathryn Graham"? Between her mother and her husband they did quite a number on her self esteem and confidence.(I am up to page 242 and counting).

The other thing that really galls me is this business of all of these people in power being in bed together. Graham (and all the others now and then)who are supposed to be bringing the news to us in an objective way...what a joke! She mentions this during the LBJ phase,says she felt it was all wrong for Phil to align himself with LBJ. It comes out reading like one big club who use their money and power to bring us the future leaders of their choice. Oh boy I'm on the soap box...enough.

Ella:Thanks so much for your encouragement and open welcome. Believe me this is the last time for that I will attempt two books at the same time, (says she until the next time).

O.K. we can move along a bit - Will be back to put up page numbers. And some comments - a nice day out, must get to a bit outside before another storm reaches us!

I am really surprised that Katharine Graham was as open about the intense involvement her husband had with LBJ and how he got involved in politics. It seems he would have had a hard time reporting the news in a straight-forward manner with his own agenda to push. (Of course I realize that probably goes on constantly on all newspapers.)

The mental breakdown of Phil Graham must have been a terrible thing to endure. She is probably glossing over some of the agony that she experienced in trying to deal with this. Also using the same doctor seemed very strange and that doctor certainly didn't maintain a profeessional distance from his patients. Apparently Phil had put in place a very strong team at the Post in order for it to continue and become profitable since he was absent from the paper so much during this time of his mental illness.

I thought it was very interesting that apparently Phil didn't feel he was worthy of the success he experienced. He must have been a brillant person and very capable in what ever he undertook, but worked too hard and couldn't deal effectively with the pressure.

Larry

Larry - love book discussions because of the varying incidents each brings out in the conversation. I, too, was very surprised at the relationship between LBJ and Phil - I don't think I really could see the intelligence, craftmanship, whatever one calls it, behind the facade that was LBJ. Was put off by his manner of speaking I think, he always seemed to be a country bumpkin of some sorts to me, but, of course, I knew that wasn't true. There was a lot more to the man that I just couldn't see.

One must feel sorry for Phil and KG, too, because of the age they lived in - the poor medical treatment Phil got from the psyciatrist (sp?- am in a hurry this am). They can do so much more for manic-depression today with drugs, etc. I wonder if they still use the therapy Phil got (just analysis, talk-therapy). But you hear of wealthy people, or others, going into "analysis" at times, don't you? Never could understand it!

Didn't get a chance to post up above last night - storms came again, but will do it after I do some errands today.

Let's take the next 4 chapters. Think Larry - you and Helen both, are reading them already.

I am finding Graham's description of Phil's illness rather confusing because we seem to go from a point where he is isolated and in despair and then, while she is still talking about him being mentally ill, he is being the kingmaker in terms of getting LBJ on the ticket with Kennedy and playing a prominent, if behind the scences role with Kennedy. I am wondering if the position of newpaper publisher gave him the influence he seemed to have or was it from his dynamic personality or a combination? This is quite an informative book about how things got done and probably still do among those in powerful positions.

Larry

Good Mornining All,

Promise to catch up to you guys by the week-end. From where I am Phil hasn't been diagnosed as mentally ill yet...just hinted at. Learned from Ella that he was diagnosed as Bi-Polar. Yes, they do treat it both with drugs and talk therapy now. It is still an extremely difficult illness to treat for most people with this diagnosis (of course depending on the severity). There are different levels of Bi-Polar diagnosis.

Larry: From your description of Phil's continuing work behind the political scenes I see where I am in for another dose of ( pointless) aggravation!

Later

Larry - I think it is a symptom of this illness that there are "highs" and "lows" - in the high periods the person is very energetic, full of great ideas, etc., and then the crash comes.

Helen - you seem knowledgable about this mental problem. I had forgotten it was called Bi-Polar these days. A much better-sounding illness than manic-depressive, isn't it? But then they all sound better than what mentally disturbed used to be called - insane! I know here where I live the insane asylum was on a hilltop, and I can remember people being depressed over something, and my folks saying that they had better snap out of it or they might end up on the hilltop! - Enough to scare anyone right into that awful place.

Several places KG discusses what a stigma was attached to mental illness and the length they went to avoid any knowledge of it leaking out to others - even to the family - the children, for heavens sake! On pg. 244 she says "It was all kept very private; our one idea was to conceal what had happened not only from the world but from our friends, my family and even out children."

Thank the Lord this is another thing that has "come out of the closet." I think Patti Duke wrote a book about having a Bi-Polar disorder???

OH, is that Call Me Anna ? I got that from the Book Exchange here on SeniorNet and haven't read it yet.

Reading this book makes me wonder about the oddity of life. Surely there's more to it than the family you were born into, but it's beginning to look not, at least in this case?

Ginny

Ginny - don't know the name of the book, only that Patti Duke wrote one about having the illness herself.

I don't understand your comment about life being only the family you were born into? What do you mean by that?

I guess what I meant was I keep wondering...well, would Katharine Graham have ever attained the heights she did (we know she writes well) had she not had the BOOST she got of the Washington Post?

Would she be another William Safire? Just to pull a writer out of a hat?

Ginny

I am half way through this section (it's over one hundred pages,ouch!) but am thinking about your wondering about whether she would have made it big in the world of writing.

I think she was absolutely right in her surmising that Phil would have been an achiever no matter what he had done ,given his brilliance and the achievements he had already made. What did she say; there are only 18 men in the whole country clerking for a supreme court justice ( In this case his justice was very taken with him.) and a degree from Harvard. I would think those were pretty impressive credentials and channels of influence in anyone's book. So yes, I think Phil had the qualities to be a mover and a shaker no matter what path he had taken. (I am not factoring in the problems with alcohol and M.I.)

Ginny,Ella, Perhaps it's because I haven't read far enough, but just from what I know of her personality to date and more to the point where our society placed women in those days…no , I don't think she have risen to great heights without the benefit of her family of origin. What think all of you?

Helen, I certainly agree with you that had she not been forced into it by the circumstances, she would probably lived her life as a society matron and continued with her good works. It sounded like she had been very active in many different projects in the D.C. area until she had the bout with TB and then resigned from them. She seems to have started on a new path when they purchased Newsweek and the broadcasting empire started to grow.

Larry

My observation has been that a family of origin makes an indelible imprint. However, I think had she not been forced by circumstances she still might have become a writer or worked with a magazine or newspaper or publishing company- re: Jackie Kennedy. I am still reading in the MI and alcoholism of husband, but even today, it has not come out of the closet. Families still try to hide it, children feel ashamed of it as they strive to keep the secret everyone knows, etc. It seems especially hard for children to have an ill father, no matter what the illness. In the first half of the century, economic security was much involved. Perhaps, it seems to effect children in this second half as a "left over" from centuries of children without fathers being in dire circumstances, i.e., sold into slavery, forced early into the workplace - such as sweatshops - not being able to go on to higher education, or just general insecurity.

KG liked to write obviously from the small jobs she had on various newspapers in her life, but I doubt if she would have become a writer - as Joyce said, she might have dabbled in it a bit. Actually, she never wrote much before this book. She was a figurehead only on the Washington Post in later years, but the buck stopped on her desk, and she made the difficult decisions.

Joyce - perhaps it's true, I don't know, that MI is still something hidden, but, at least, doctors know so much more about it - it can be categorized into several diagnoses - bi-polar disorder, paranoia, schizophrenia, to name a few, and can be treated accordingly. In past times it was all insanity. And it can be treated and often cured. While thinking about this, it came to mind that there was a politician some years back (Eagleston? - something like that) that was running for national office (congressman?), but it was discovered that he had been treated for depression and it ruined him. Does anyone remember that? Well, as you can see, my mind is hazy (perpetual condition) and I shouldn't even have brought that up.

Ella, I remember the incident as he was a senator from Missouri, my home state. It was Senator Thomas Eagleton.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I remember Eagleton too I couldn't remember his name. In fact, I was thinking to him when I was commenting that MI still carries a stigma (we believe other illnesses can be cured and although MI can be cured in some cases and controlled in others,) even "enlightened" folk still view those suffering from any of its many names as "Odd."

I enjoyed the humor of "Dad" commenting (On his eightieth birthday) that Joe Pulitzer had died on Wednesday, Bertie McCormic died on thursday, and he (Dad) was on his way to see the doctor.

Much as I personally liked Adlai Stevenson, I think Katy was correct in the comment that he was too indecisiove and not tough minded enough. I guess that could mean that he was just too decent to be president. The comparison with JFK was amusing. They both loved women, but Adlai also liked them.

Katy makes the observation that her husband's mental illness nearly drove her out of her tree. This is a common denomenator. When a family memember is sick (Mental Illness, Alcoholism, etc.) It begets illness in other family members.

I won't repeat it here, but Phil's speech (P 257- was a beautifully constructed treatise, well worth reviewing.

A few of the JFK comments (259, 276, 287, and 288) were most enjoyable and perceptive.

Wasn't the "Carlyle Hotel, mentioned on Pg.289 the site of action in the musical "CATS"?

nuff fer now

Best

LJ

Despite KG's insecurities caused by Phil and his cruel humor, that letter he wrote to her on pg 254 was a wonderful love letter. He signed it "your burden and your sustainer" - interesting description of himself for that is what he was. A very complex man. He was described on pg. 249 by E.B.W. as a man terribly troubled by self-doubt, whether he would have made anything of himself if he hadn't married KG. Do you think that was a part of his mental problems?

LJ - read that speech of Phil's over again - excellent! The excuses we give for our actions. In many instances, Kay cites examples of Phil being ahead of his time, e.g. where the money comes from to elect candidates. Certainly timely today!

Considering that I usually read fiction, my enjoyment of this book is a surprise to me…it's a real page turner.

Loved the parts about JFK and that era. It was such a memorable time. Their list of friends was Who's Who in America. How could that be anything but fascinating?

I do admire the even handedness with which she writes about the events in her life. I was particularly impressed with the way she describes the ordeal she and Phil shared together, the lack of rancor on her part. She is even kind and understanding of the woman,Robin Webb. I think Phil really solidified the lack of self worth she brought to the marriage. She was clearly very much in love with the man and must have continually marvelled at his choosing her. She often refers to needing him there socially or she felt inept. He certainly sounded like a fascinating and complex individual.

How sad it was to hear her friends' take on his treatment of her. Her women friends were apparently very uncomfortable with what they saw in the relationship between Phil and KG. The reactions of those who she told about the divorce. How wonderful and inciteful Luvie Pearson was when she told her,being the first to even mention it to her. (with regard to taking over the Post) "You've got all those genes. It's ridiculous to think you can't do it. You've just been pushed down so far you don't recognize what you can do." . At the time it seemed impossible to K.G. but it was one of the things she remembered as time went on.

How about JFK and the sizzling conversations with Phil. Do you think he accepted that kind of abuse from him because he knew he was ill and gave him that yardage or do you think it was because of Phil's political savvy and worth both as advisor and mega media power?

Helen - such a wonderful post! Must go over the sections you are discussing again - don't have the time now, but will. But I do remember that remark you have in blue - KG needed that understanding and encouragement.

I have posted the next 4 chapters above as I think we are moving well along in our reading.

For those of you who are enjoying reading this book, you might also enjoy the book posted above by Carol Felsenthal. She made the comment in that book that Phil had numerous affairs with women, although in this book KG just mentions the one that proved to be most devastating - that with Robin. Also, according to Felsenthal, both Phil and LBJ were manic-depressives, and, in many ways, I think she had reason to believe this of LBJ, eg., his highs and lows. Do any of you agree with this statement? She also claims that Phil wrote the "Great Society Program."

Two humorous stories along the way (in this very serious book, one looks for humor)- pg. 280 - Ben Bradlee, who was to play an important role in her life at the paper, wrote a funny note, and on pg.289 she describes attempting to learn the twist. Both made me smile!

I resent, at times, KG's assumption that her vicarious role in her marriage was typical of the women of the time. Are any of you feeling the same way?

Her love of the Post and her fight for it during the difficult days of the separation from Phil is commendable, even though she admits that the success of the paper was due to Phil's brilliant and energetic leadership. Had he not had this mental illness, he might have been able to take the Post away from her, don't you agree? He certainly felt as though he owned it and held the majority of the shares.

Amazingly enough I am up to date on the reading as I find myself so engrossed in the book that I don't want to put it down. Also by next week at this time I will be away on vacation for two weeks, so I had better get as much read as I can before I leave my fellow readers.

When I first started to read this book I must admit that I was somewhat skeptical about her winning the Pulitzer for it. I thought oh my, just how high does this kind of influence goes, actually she tells us it goes all the way. However I realize my cynicism has dissolved and my admiration for this woman just continues to grow.

I find the description of her evolution, her rebirth if you will, absolutely fascinating. Quite clearly she did it by putting one foot in front of the other, a day at a time, trembling aplenty along the way. Her confidence and will clearly growing stronger as time went by. She had the raw material. Just didn't believe it and may never have had the opportunity to realize it. She accomplished this metamorphosis at a time when women didn't rise to these levels in a man's world.

Somewhere along the time line the issue of women's rights kicked in and helped to raise her consciousness still more. Was it at the beginning of the book that there was an anecdote about her being at a dinner party at a time when it was the custom for men and women to separate after dinner so the men could have their brandy, smoke cigars and talk about important issues…anybody remember? I can't seem to find it. Well I recall reading that she refused to go along with this outdated and sexist custom and left the party early. She stated that that was the last time this ritual took place in her presence.

In chapter 18 we get a glimpse of a mind in action. K.G. says that while recognizing that "News Columns" HAD to be fair and detached.."There really is no such thing as OBJECTIVITY"

Herein lies a thought that deserves contemplation.

Best

LJ

Found the passage I was looking for as i read a little further. Must have peeked when I first got the book.

L.J.: I'm thinking about it...and the ramifications...they are awesome.

LJ, KG discusses a lot about Phil's involvement with politics and national policy. It would seem to be impossible to be objective with such strong convictions, even if you tried to do so. I think every newspaper and most magazines that deal with public affairs and politics are pegged somewhere on the political spectrum. In her youth Katarine had pretty liberal leanings and she and Phil certainly ran with the more liberal movers and shakers at that time.

As I read about Phil's involvement with LBJ, the political conventions, etc., I thought this really gives some insight into how politcal decisions are made and the powers that appear to pull a lot of the strings behind the scenes. Access is everything and Phil Graham appeared to have access to most places. Perhaps that goes with the newspaper business.

Larry

The Washington Post is still a very liberal leaning paper. Those of us that rely on it as our daily paper have resigned ourselves to this and tend to read also the Washington Times. I find the truth lies somewhere in between.

KG must be given a lot of credit for the job she has done with the Post, but I still don't think she deserved the Pulitzer Prize. There were many authors much more worthy of it than she.

Theresa

David Gergen, in his article in the April 27th issue of U.S.News and World Reports says that "Word that former publisher Katharine Graham, at age 80, had won a Pulitzer Prize for her recent autobiography brought whoops of delight across the newsroom of the Washington Post last week. Hard-edged veterans of the paper had watched with admiration as this woman of quiet courage had flowered over the years and has now become a role model for women everywhere."

Very nice!

Ginny

Some comments I ran into both by and about K,G.

"It was a feeling of vindication when the facts began to come out and the feeling that we were proved to have been right, which was very reassuring. But, were we satisfied to have a President of the United States have to resign because of the Watergate stories? No. It proved that our democracy was very strong, that it could survive this and that it could accept that this man had to go, and that the Vice-President, Gerald Ford, could take office and that there wasn't any trauma that the country couldn't survive and live with. We mastered those difficulties. I think it was a great tribute to our kind of democracy."

I haven't checked, but I'm guessing the top paragraph came right out of the book. I think it is one worth considering as it is so right on. It certainly was both a wrenching and fascinating time in our country's history. Remember spending the whole summer of '73 glued to the television set.

Katherine Graham describes herself as being shy and insecure when she took over The Washington Post. But her on-the-job training paid off. In time, she became a respected member of the newspaper publishing community. When it was announced that her memoir, Personal History had won a Pulitzer Prize in the biography category, Mrs. Graham said that she "always associated the Pulitzer with reporters and editors and was always proud when we won one. But," she continued, "it's a whole other scene when you win one yourself. Especially for your first and only book."

Helen - have a wonderful vacation! I am so happy you are enjoying the book and find it a real page-turner, as I did. We had some reservations about discussing this book as it is such a long one, but I, for one, am enjoying all the comments. Whether it deserved the Pulitizer Prize or not is a matter for speculation, but the book captures those events we all lived through from another's perspective and from a person who was in the "thick of it all."

How to grow old gracefully: "We have to read a lot and not drink" Wonder if this is her advice to The Books and Lit Folder of Seniornet?

On pg 392 I have a note: "Whose wife among us DIDN'T have a hairdresser named Kenneth"

Best

LJ

The more I read of this book the more often the thought goes through my mind that "I think she doth protest too much" about her lack of ability to adapt too and handle situations and not being in the power group.

I did see the interview with Jill Ker Conway on BookNotes on C-Span last night and she had featured KG in her book. She made some very interesting observations about how KG had written her autobiography with the emphasis on the subserviant role of the woman in the society in which she was raised and lived.

With all of the friends in high and powerful places that KG had throughout her life and still has it is hard to image her being as incompetent as she portrays herself. Does anyone else get this same feeling in reading this book?

Larry

Larry, yes, I do, but she had me almost convinced there! I was thinking that birth, not ability, had gotten her where she was.

I thought Jill Ker Conway made a very telling point in the first half hour of her talk on C-Span that despite all the wonderful things Katharine Graham has accomplished, the tremendous decisions she made ....(and then she named some very controversial things for the time), Conway said she still chose to present herself in such a way as not a strong figure, which Conway found interesting.

And when the interviewer asked if Conway knew Graham, she said, "Oh, yes, " and did not elaborate as she did on other themes. I got the impression she thought Katharine Graham should have been more forthright about her prowess as a commanding presence, which apparently she is.

Ginny

LJ: Everyone on Seniornet is SO GRACEFUL! We're doing part of that right anyway.

Larry and Ginny: Yes, I agree she does portray herself as a very subservient and insecure in the first half of the book, and for very good reasons in my opinion (parents and husband's constant criticisms). Have you looked at her pictures in early life? I thought she was very pretty, for some reason she looks a bit like Mamie Eisenhower when she was young! Maybe it's just that everyone is pretty when they are young!!!

But in the latter half of the book, I don't remember her writing as much about this kind of personal problem, but a different one - that of being a female in an all-male professional world. I'm sure that must have been difficult, but perhaps she elaborates a bit much on this? I'll have to skim over this half again to see if I still feel that way.

I generally choose not to comment on the Women's Lib angles inasmuch as I can perceive them only from the point of view of a boy, man, elder, son, husband, father and grandfather. I guess thats half the spectrum, but its a bit like being black. Some of my best friends are Women. Although there is much to be said for equality and much ground still to be fought over and won, there are still some reservations in my mind in some "Sensitive" areas. The doctrine of separate but equal, although not applicable in race relations may have its place where two so distinct groups like males and females (Regardless of their sexual orientations) are concerned. i.e. I like the idea of Fraternities and Sororities being sexually separate.

The other major discussion in these chapters, the Viet Nam war, is one about which I have very strong and hostile feelings and opinions. As I see it, the era was the end of this country as a great nation. But I think this is not the right place for me to enter into that fray (Again).

So, for the moment I'll "Kibbitz" (Actively) from the sideline and try to learn whatever youall are generous enough to teach me.

Best

LJ

LJ: I'm not in the mood to actively argue that "separate but equal" status of women in the workplace either; however I did skim over a few notes I had made in these chapters to see if my impression was correct that KG seemed to be happier in her life after taking the position at the Post. I quote just a few: "I didn't understand the immensity of what lay before me............., nor did I realize how much I was eventually going to enjoy it all." And in her relationship with Ben Bradlee she states that "Ben became one of the most cherished professional and personal relationships of my life and one of the most productive." Again, "It took the passage of time and the women's lib years to alert me properly to the real problems of women in the workplace, including my own."

She began to meet new people, went out a great deal, served on Boards of companies and even on the board of George Washington University, did a lot of "bonding" with other ladies who were serving in various important positions, e.g., Clare Boothe Luce, Lady Bird Johnson, Liz Carpenter, etc.

All of these new experiences in her life had to be very rewarding to her after her past roles as dutiful wife and mother.

ELLA, I certainly agree that Women should receive the same pay for the same work as men, and should have the same opportunity for advancement as men and all races should be treated equally, and all persons of various religious or sexual persuasions should also be treated equally, but until the workplace is so perfectly computerized that no human judgement is ever involved in decision making, there will always be personal preferences and likes and dislikes involved in promotions and decision making. Unfortunately, Utopia doesn't exist this side of eternity. All of that said, Does it mean that ALL women at all times in their lives, should or would want to decline the role of a "House-wife" and Mother? (I'll leave the word "Dutiful" up for "Grabs"

Best

LJ

I am really sorry I was unaware of the C-Span interview with Jill Kerr Conway. Sounds as if you guys got still another impression of KG from her.

Larry: I have thought about your reaction of some disbelief in her being so short of self confidence etc. after being raised in such a privileged environment. Yes, I find that I do believe it. I don't think wealth has much to do with it. If anything, the one advantage it gave her socially, was that she wasn't terribly intimidated by the "A list"of celebs having met them through her family from the time she was just a child. I did find it totally believable that she endured feelings of lack of self worth, confidence and all those other nasty things. Later on we see how she slowly and painstakingly began to overcome and develop them but it took time.

At one point in the book (pg610) she notes that people "outsiders" of the Washington scene think it is wrong that they co-mingle; the people from the administration and the people from the press.. She justifies it and seems to think they Can still step back and be objective. I don't buy it. I don't believe that you see people on some kind of frequent social basis and remain as objective about them and free to do what you might do or say had this not been the case. Yes she sights some examples, but even knowing that it went on, reading about it really makes one realize just how much it goes on. At one point I believe she even mentioned that Scotty Reston was on the Pulitzer committee (not the year that she won).

Later

Helen, I think her premise was that since she wasn't directly involved with the actual reporting and apparently left that to others, it was all right for her to be involved with the newsmakers on a social basis.

I thought the extensive involvement of Warren Buffet with KG personally and with the Post Company was very interesting. KG made it sound like she didn't take any actions that she hadn't discussed with Buffet.

I can accept a certain lack of confidence and that she may have grown up feeling inferior to her Mother and Father, who were very dynamic people, but contrary to what she was saying in the book, she did make the hard decisions and she was very capable in learning as she went along.

I finally completed reading this book last evening and must say I gave a big sigh as it was such a long book. However, it was certainly interesting and she was there when a lot of history occurred and had access to the shakers and movers. Quite a lady.

Larry

Larry; I also have finally finished it and agree that it was quite an undertaking.

I think one thing we would all agree on is that we are richer for the experience. There is so much more we could discuss. However, this is my sign off until I return from vacation. Am all packed and just waiting to be picked up for our midnight flight to Israel, a long dreamed of first time experience.

Ella: Thanks so much for your good wishes and your wonderful leadership of this lively and most interesting discussion.

Helen, I hope you have a wonderful trip and stay safe while over there. I understand it is a marvelous experience.

Yes, I agree we are richer for having read the book by KG. The advice she was given when faced with taking on the responsibilities of the Post about putting one foot forward at a time is really wise. I think that is basically how we all learn. If we never try we never succeed.

Larry

Gol-lee! You all are finished with the book? Well, I was going to post the remaining chapters up tonight, but let's just say finish on your own time and at your own speed (those who may be taking their time).

LJ: Equality is a word that is hard to define when we are speaking of people isn't it? Such a complex issue. We have a cardinal nest outside a small window and we have been watching the mother bird sit so patiently on the eggs while father reports in now and then. All of nature has its role to play and we don't know who made up the rules, but we can't ignore the fact that women bear the children, can we? And, of course, we are all limited by our abilities in some way or another. On pg. 430 KG says that she believes the women's movement has defined for her the fact that women have a right to choose which life-style suits them. I agree with that, and have to state further that just "choosing" isn't enough, they must have the opportunity to enter into that life-style. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say to a little girl that she can grow up to be the president just like ____________ did? Perhaps Elizabeth Dole? Who knows?

I bookmarked KG's statement on pg. 623 that in writing this book she hoped to arrive at some understanding of how people are formed by the way they grow up and further molded by the way they spend their days. Interesting!

ELLA, Your post is very perceptive. We are blessed with an abundance of wildlife here on my hillside. The coons and possum drive my dogs nuts but give them (the dogs) something to do besides "Wool" the cats, but the birds are most interesting. The sparrows are always around but the Bluebirds and Cardinals usually come in bunches, and never at the same time. They remind me of Fraternities and Sororities. The Hummingbirds are the "Independants" and don't come around with anybody else.

I'd say that K.G.'s most important point on this subject was on P421 where she says that (essentially) its time to "Focus on the real issues" Our problem revolves around recognizing the "Real" issues.

Best

LJ

LJ: Read that over - women are still grappling over the real issues. Perhaps it will never truly be solved. But when I read a statement by KG (pg.418) "I find that I lead a man's life so completely ..." Why does a women need to define her life in that way? Why cannot she just say "I am in this field or that" - what is a man's life anyway? Puzzling to me. Women do better in so many professional fields than men do, it seems to me, e.g. I much prefer a female doctor than a male. But, of course, gender shouldn't matter at all. Personality does! Caring does!

Our fuzzy little babies in the cardinal's nest hatched and Mom gets a rest now and then. She can fly again to find food for them and Dad seems to be coming home for lunch and dinner more regularly! We've never had a nest so close to the house and in a pyracantha bush which is full of dreadful thorns! Hope the babies don't kill themselves as they learn to fly out of the place!

I think K.G. was in the thinking "Mode" of a woman of the early forties. Remember? When it was "Avant-Gard" for a woman to wear slacks. By those standards she was indeed operating in a "Man's" millieu.

Best

LJ

LJ: Yes, I'm sure she was, hopefully, women have outgrown that mode of thinking.

In winding up this discussion, I would be remiss if I did not ask two questions:

1. Did anyone learn anything new about the WHOLE Watergate affair?

2. Did you enjoy the book and how would you rate it on a scale of 1-10, one being the lowest? Would you recommend it to a friend?

About the watergate affair, even KG claims not to know who "Deepthroat" was. I've read a number of books on that subject. Personally, like everybody else, I have an opinion but still no proof. There were so many militaristic crooks and Nazis in that administration, it would be hard to know which one it was. The best arguement I've heard was Alexander Haig. You don't suppose that he DID have a decent bone in his body. Do you??

Best

LJ

Ella, I don't think I learned anything new about the Watergate affair from this book. I had read "All the President's Men" several years ago and have read several other things related to it that provided much more insight. I think the thing I did learn was a little more about the personalities of Woodward and Bernstein. It took a lot of persistence to carry on the Watergate matter when others didn't seem to be interested.

That description of the labor mess they had in the newspaper profession was really something. Those problems seemed almost too big to overcome as things had really gotten out-of-hand.

I would give this book a 10. For me to wade through a 600+ page book it has to hold my interest and this one met that criteria.

Larry

I'd give it a good solid 8.

Best

LJ

Hi Guys, This may be a first. I am here in Natanya,Israel visiting with a friend I met on Seniornet. Isn't this an amazing piece of technology?

Well I may as well vote whil I am on so I'll cast an 8 as I thoroughly enjoyed this read and came away with much to think about.

It's back to visit with our Israeli friends. Oh by the way, we went on a fantastic visit to a Tell yesterday. Found things that hadn't been touched in 2300 years! Wait until I get back to bore you all with the details.

Best regards from Mona Nobil and myself...Helen (schiffy)

HELEN, Can't wait to hear about your archaeological observations.

Best

LJ

HELEN! HOW WONDERFUL FOR YOU!! AND YOU MET THESE FOLKS IN ISRAEL ON THE COMPUTER? WE MUST HEAR ALL ABOUT IT WHEN YOU COME BACK!!!

AND YOU WON'T BORE US AT ALL - WE WANT A FULL ACCOUNT! THANKS FOR GIVING US YOUR INSIGHTS INTO THE GRAHAM BOOK! SO GLAD YOU ENJOYED IT AND DO ENJOY THE REST OF YOUR STAY IN ISRAEL. Ella

Helen!! You made it!! Hello!!

Hello to Mona, too, can't wait to hear your adventures!

Love,

Ginny

Here I am Ella and hopefully I will get in this time. Enjoyed all our book, and other talk this afternoon. Just testing, but if I can post a note I will be in here often. See ya J C.

JC - YOU DID IT AND YOU WILL DO IT AGAIN OFTEN, I HOPE!

We are just finishing up this discussion; but there are two books I know you would be interested in. Check out BC Online - Coming Attractions. The Color of Water and Tuesdays with Morris sound fascinating.

LJ - I think you said you have the "Tuesdays" book or are reading it? If so, could you give us a short summation of it?

I am waiting for Joyce's opinion on this book before we close it out. She should be along shortly. I believe she's reading two at the same time, so I'll wait for her.

As an aside, read in the paper recently that there is new book about Nixon out, written by an aide of his from 1990 until his death in 1994. The author claims that Nixon told her "what happened was my fault" and also believed that if he had given a checkerslike speech when the break-in occurred the entire aftermath "could have been averted." What do you think?

Tuesdays with Morrie is a very succinct little book filled with pearls for living from a terrific teacher who is dieing. Not a lot of "Schmaltz", plenty of meat and potatoes, Very short and sweet.

Best

LJ

LJ, I agree with your assessment of Tuesdays with Morrie. It was storming here yesterday morning and I sat down and read the whole book, which is only about 170+ pages. I think it had a lot to say to us. I really enjoyed it. Also appreciated it being rather short after just finishing the 600+ page Graham book.

Larry

Sounds like a winner! Must get it - Larry did you get it at the library?

Ella, I am sure that my library has it, but thanks to Ginny I have my own copy. It is a very nice little book.

Larry

My library has it Larry, so I'll get it there. Also looked up the Color of Water and I found a book published in 1928 (who came up with this one?). Sounds good, but think of all the changes in society since then?

While I'm here I'll post my rating of the KG book. I agree with Larry that it deserves a 10 for keeping my interest throughout. A very good autobiography.

We'll wait a bit longer for Joyce and then I'll average out the ratings.

Ella: this Color of Water is very new?? It's just out, I think, tho I read it in paperback...how interesting you found an old one!

Ginny

1996 is the CR on "THE COLOR OF WATER" by James McBride

Best

LJ

Went to Amazon Books and it is a new book! Now that is interesting - this 1928 book sounds similar. I think I'll have the Main library send it out to my branch just to look it over out of curiousity. Didn't write down the author's name - had just typed in the title on the computer. Will let you know.

Our Newcomer's Book Club here in Henderson Nevada will be read- ing Personal History in June 1998. Anyone interested in selling their copy? E-Mail or call at 702-260-3918. Thanx!

Here I am. I haven't quite finished yet but I am enjoying it. I learned lots of things I didn't know that might be of interest just to native Floridians - e.g. Florida Senator and former governor Bob Graham is KG's brother-in-law, Phil & Bob grew up in "the Everglades" and the family "made good" in Florida and survived the Florida land boom; that the Post bought WMBR-TV in Jacksonville - my husband's home town - I was really amused at KG's "culture shock of being in the south" on her first visit to Florida - since this was during the beginning of development in south Florida, it was in no way like what I call the "real south." Then they owned the farm near Middleburg, Va - now that's the south - I gather she adjusted! It is a common myth I think that if you have enough money and know enough influential people, you will get proper treatment for any illness but that was certainly not true in Phil's case. Two members of my family (both males) suffered from depression. They both seemed to have recovered or rather were maintained on medication better than Phil and this was before Prozac. I could really identify with Katherine as she would observe signs of another occurrance. Illness is certainly no respecter of persons! It is interesting to get an insider, personal view of people I have only read about. I do get a little weary of her complaints about not knowing how to cook or decorate, her remoteness from her children when they were young or perhaps she just didn't detail those incidents. I have put several things she wrote into my "Quotes Collection" and I haven't done that from a book in some time. I thought her description of chavenistic males of that era was right on - even Pres. Kennedy! - and the general ignoring of middle aged females - I wonder if she experiences even more ignoring now that she is a "senior" female. Maybe that is why she wrote the book! I may be overrating the book because of personal identification but I would give it an 8!

PAT: I want to keep mine, but check in the Book Exchange here in Books and Literature. Someone may post the book there.

JOYCE: Your posts are always so interesting; I did remember KG being somewhat miffed at being ignored. She should have been aware at that age that men, especially men such as Kennedy, prefer the young lovely things! I hope she's learned that by now! But as I say that, I bear in mind that only the more mature women have anything really interesting to say (could it being I'm trying to defend our age group?)

So now we have two ratings of 10, and three ratings of 8, which are all very high, and I have enjoyed discussing this book with all of you. See you online in another discussion! Which one?? I think I'll do the Color of Water in July even though I'm going to be gone 2 weeks - I can take it with me on the trip.

Ella,

Thanks for serving as the discussion leader for this very interesting book. I really enjoyed it and your insights and thought stimulators were very helpful.

Larry

Ella, The Color of Water starts June 8, and Tuesdays With Morrie is the July book.

You have done a fabulous job with this discussion!! I've been lurking and reading but had to stop at about page 400, nonetheless I've loved all the comments!

Ginny

ELLA: You've been a terrific discussion leader. Just rattle my paper and I'd follow you anywhere.

This was indeed a tough book, and the discussion never wavered. At times the material was deep and convoluted, but it was well written and opened a lot of areas for us to consider and contemplate.

I'd give the book a good solid eight.

I'd give Ella an even more solid 10.

Best

LJ

Ginny - thanks for the reminder. I'm having the Color of Water sent to my branch, should get it in 3-4 days. What I find fascinating is there are 2 books by the same name. The Color of Water (published in 1928 and authored by Margaret Meeker) is also coming.

Did anyone know you can have 2 books with the same title? I've always assumed that 2 books cannot be copyrighted as such - thought that was one of the reasons we have the Library of Congress. Will be interesting as both books deal with black people. Will keep you informed - I notice we have no discussion leader for this book, so hope someone else is reading it at the same time I will be. Will be rather lonely all by myself!

ELLA, I'm sure there will be others, and I have read it. Ginny may have appointed a "Leader"; if not, we'll just arbitrarily divide it up into four sections and "Have at it"

Best

LJ

No, it's to be a forum, and I know of two more people intending to come in, and Ros has gotten up some thoughts, so it ought to be a wow, and I REALLY want to hear about that other Color of Water.

I think we will have a great discussion, even tho I'm to be in it ONE DAY!~! Maybe I can punch in from Rome.

Ginny

GINNY, While "In Italia" follow Leparello's aria and take "Se cento quaranto" Pleasures. and if you get farther south take in a matinee at the "Teatro Di San Carlo Di Napoli". I've always wanted to go to spain because of Don Giovonni's experiences there: "Ma In Hispania, Son gia Mille Tre" (Sorry, my spelling in italian is as bad as my French) Above all, remember: The French don't care what they do as long as they pronounce it correctly, The Italians don't care what they say as long as they do it well, The Brits are just nerds by comparison.

Have a ball !!!

Best

LJ

LJ, that's so cute. I sure hope it's true, as my Italian is the pits. Will watch out when we tour Naples for the Theatre, are taking a one or two day trip to that area because they do say it's not safe.

May also get to do Capri and Sorrento and the Amalfi Coast, but Pompeii comes first when in the south of Rome, for me.

Ginny