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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Imagine a book club in a place where there is not a single book store! This is exactly what Mary Ann Shaffer and her niece, Annie Barrows have done as they draw us into the engaging relationship betweeen Juliet Aston and the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. Perhaps their story explains the popularity of book clubs everywhere.
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Topics for Discussion during Week 1
1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work?
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society?
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
5. What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society? What do your own choices reveal about you?
6. What did you learn about the German occupation of Guernsey in these pages? How do you think the Islanders managed to survive the occupaton for five years?
7. "Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones." Do you agree with Isola? Will you share your favorite references to books and reading in these pages?
8. What did you find especially meaningful in this first section; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941. (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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Here we go!!!
Many of you are ready to jump right in - others are busy reading the first group of letters. Please keep an eye on the discussion schedule in the heading so that you don't give away anything that is revealed in later letters.
This week we will be discussing what is found in the letters dated January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946.
There is so much to talk about! The book has many facets: the German occupation and how the inhabitants coped during the five years of occupation. Above all, it is a novel about books and reading! It is also Juliet Ashton's story that is revealed through her letters. Just where to start?
Let's begin with Juliet Ashton. I'm very curious to hear what you think of her. Is she real to you after reading her correspondence? Could these letters have been written by actual people? What sort of a person is she? Is she the sort of person you would like for a friend?
It's never too late to join us - remember everyone is welcome!
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It’s finally come – Guernsey Day or is it Potato Peel Pie Day.
Yes, this is Juliet Ashton’s story, and I’m curious to hear what you think of her, too. Joan asks, “Is she real to you?” I want to know, does she reveal enough to you? Do you feel you know her?
Yes, it’s a novel about books and reading. It’s also a novel about an historical period. And it’s a novel about relationships. You’re no doubt already wondering who’re Susan and Sophie? What is Sidney’s role? And so much more. So, on with the show.
Welcome everyone to SeniorLearn’s first book discussion.
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February 1, 2009
Callie to Discussion Group
Dear Friends
Can't wait to begin visiting about Guernsey, Potato Peel Pie and London at war. Oops, have I said too much? Oh well, you know how I am - or, at least, some of you do. Smiling...
Callie
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I'm posting now, because I am a sleepy head, and I know I'll be in late tomorrow.
I like Juliet Ashton. I think she is very real, open and above board. I like that she was a survivor, growing up and feisty.
She also makes me laugh.
Evelyn
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From Bellamarie to SeniorLearn Members of GLAPPPS
1st February, 2009
Mr., Ms. and Mrs. SeniorLearn GLAPPPS
Windsor Manor
La Bouvee
St. Martin's, Guernsey
Oh my how exciting it is to finally begin to discuss this book. JoanP I am glad you began your first questions asking about Juliet. So without further ado, let the discussion begin.
To answer your question if Juliet is real, I must say I can't imagine her not being real. After reading these letters I forgot the characters are fictitious. She is truly the kind of person I would be friends with. She is spunky like me, a writer as I am, loves humor which I couldn't live without. Juliet draws people to her in a way that they are willing to trust her and share their personal thoughts with her without ever meeting her. Juliet is like a prism to me, she has so many facets about her and each letter shows me a new color shining through. Juliet is a loyal friend, but not to the fault of denying herself a chance at a new relationship with Mr. Reynolds. I get the sense she is enjoying life and is not afraid to try new things. Imagine not buying a dress in years. She is truly not a vain person, yet she admits to liking the compliments she receives on her book tours. Indeed I would love to be friends with Juliet.
As far as could these letters be written by actual people, I must say of course. As I read the letters, I have already begun to see every person as real. I suppose that is what Mary Ann Shaffer and Annie Barrows intended when they wrote this book.
I anxiously await to read what all of you think about Juliet.
Sincerely,
Bellamarie
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1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
Juliet Ashton is not like anyone I have ever met in real life. I have met one Upper Middle class woman who was only about 5 when the war began. Her recollections are of course different and therefore she is not like Juliet Ashton in her outlook on life. Juliet is of a generation before mine. I was born in 1949. However from what I have read in autobiographies and biographies she is a true representation of an Upper Middle Class woman of her time. What did I like about her? For one thing she is not condescending in her letters to the Guernsey Islanders. She was kind hearted. ( Gift of a book to Dawsey Adams) She is spirited. ( Threw Teapot at despicable journalist!) . She must have a typically British sense of humour. (her wartime colums later presented in a book which is rapidly becoming a best seller) I think I would probably like her if she were a real life person. I am sure there is more to learn about Juliet Ashton as we continue with our reading.
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I am sorry to say I have run out of possibilities for getting this book in time. Sold out in bookstores around here, library has waiting list. However I did get on the waiting list for large print at someone's suggestion here and am now number ten from number forty. I will read the posts and join in when I can.
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? Is Juliet real to you or a fictitious character?
Initially Juliet is a fictitious character but as the story begins to develop one loses that sense as reality takes over and she becomes more real with each letter. She 'connects' with people - all sorts of people - which is a pretty good thing for a 'writer' to do.
Bellamarie Imagine not buying a dress in years
This was partly due to wartime rationing and was a part of the minor inconveniences of war and the period of austerity which followed. New clothing was hard to come by even here in the antipodes. My mother had very few new clothes during the war - nor did I and most of what I did have were hand-me-downs from my cousin and I was glad to get them. We were in good company as the then Royal Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret didn't have new clothes either - they were dressed in garments made from cut-down clothing rescued from the royal attics.
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I've only read the first few letters; I find something to smile about in every one especially Juliet.
Yes, she sounds real to me and spirited as someone above posted. I like people who say it like it is.
~Marj
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Clothing was still scarce for a while after the war, and still rationed. Juliet says "new shoes are going to have to wait, since I spent almost a year's worth of clothing coupons on the dress"
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Juliet really came alive for me when, talking about her lack of success with men, she said: "I can't think of anything lonelier than spending the rest of my life with someone I can't talk to, or worse, someone I can't be silent with."
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I love all of these different comments. I fell in love with Juliet and the book right from the beginning. I have always enjoyed this format of using letters for all the prose in a book. The one which came to mind first was, of course, Helen Hanf's book, "84 Charing Cross" but I have seen others as plays and books.
There is delightful play whose title shall remain unknown (my memory leaves me now and then ;D) which used only two actors, man and woman, who are corresponding throughout their entire lives. Very well received back in the 80's. Wasn't the movie, "Four Seasons" partially presented this way??
As I read along, I am also seeing the postmen running back and forth like mad hatters, as many of the letters are written on the same day. Don't you wonder if they peeked into or wondered about all these letters coming to Juliet. She is a winner,too. I was so into the book that I am now looking up the authors that are mentioned to see what they have written. I had never heard of Anne Bronte, just Emily and Charlotte, who were two of my favorites as I tottered into my teen years.
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BELLEMARIE, I felt the same way; I kept forgetting the characters are fictitious. They are so believable! And Juliet is such a open and honest person, one can't help liking her.
I am so pleased with the letter format. Whatever happened to the art of letter writing? Well, of course, the telephone, the typewriter, then the computer. A pity, really, unless of course your handwriting is so poor it is inhumane to inflict it on your loved ones.
Letters are so revealing of personality. And our author here is so good at nailing down a perfect image . Of her boss and long-time friend, when angry: ”Sidney’s brow would lower--his eyes would narrow--he would stalk. You know how nerve-racking it is when Sidney stalks.”
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Babi , Thank you for pointing this out...."Letters are so revealing of personality. And our author here is so good at nailing down a perfect image . Of her boss and long-time friend, when angry: ”Sidney’s brow would lower--his eyes would narrow--he would stalk. You know how nerve-racking it is when Sidney stalks.”
I loved how even though it annoyed Juliet that Sidney would ignore her for accepting a date with Markham, she persisted on writing to him to get him to respond. I was so amused with how she described his reaction. It made me laugh, because I visioned a spoiled little boy pouting because he did not get the attention all to himself.
My husband is a mailman, has been for 36 yrs now. I was discussing this book with him and some of Charles Lamb's letters an Jane Austen's Lady Susan. I was telling him how they wrote back and forth so quickly, yet lived miles away and I could not imagine letter carriers delivering at the speed they wrote. Of course back then I suppose they used many other forms of getting their correspondences such as friends traveling to the area etc. But yes, I do have to giggle imaging the postman going to and fro thinking damn these people are busy little buggers. We only get our mail delivered once a day so I'm trying to imagine how they were able to receive and answer each other so quickly. hmmm Any ideas anyone?
As you all have heard the Post Office is requesting to go to a five day delivery since the volume of mail is down. For certain letter writing and cards have decreased in volume due to the internet. Why I speak with my family and friends near and far many times a day through instant messages, Facebook, and emails. So I suppose the art of letter writing is fading. Again..... I LOVE JULIET up to this point.
I can only imagine how she felt when all her books were lost in the fire. How precious to have a book collection and then to lose them.
Gumtree...Thank you for reminding me of the ration on clothing. I was born in 1952 and all throughout my childhood I rarely was lucky enough to own a "new dress". I got most of my sisters' hand me downs or thrift store dresses. We were a family of seven children (six girls me next to the youngest) so you can imagine there were plenty of hand me downs to warrant NO new ones for me. We were very poor with no running water or inside toilet for many years, so even though I did not live through the great depression, I can truly relate to the life. Oh how spoiled we are today. tsk tsk
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A common thread running through all of your reasons for liking the character of Juliet Ashton is her sense of humor! And as MarjV says, she likes people who say it like it is.
Do you think this is a universal response? Or would some think her outspokenness is a little too much - like when she threw the teapot just missing the speaker's head for instance?
Has our age mellowed us to forgive her lack of control?
Would you have run around with Juliet if you were her age?
How old do you figure she is in 1946? I was born in 1938 - and can remember getting two mail deliveries a day - right into the 50's, I believe.
In an attempt to learn whether MaryAnn Shaffer actually visited Guernsey when she researched this book, I came across this interview with her niece, Annie Barrows. If you Love Juliet Ashton, Bellamarie, I think you'd love MA Shaffer -
"Mary Ann was, by far, the best storyteller in the family, but she was one of those people for whom starting was easy, but continuing was hard. Now there is a monument, this book, to how completely fun and entertaining and witty she was.
Danielle: Did you hear Mary Ann's voice coming out through the characters' voices when you were doing your rewrites?
Barrows: Oh, yes. The closest to her in tone is Juliet. I can hear pieces of stories I know, pieces of events I know, throughout the book...
Juliet is so Mary Ann, that sort of rueful voice, and yet, with a willingness to be delighted and to be fascinated by all of the people on Guernsey. That rueful tone is Mary Ann, and the engagement with books is Mary Ann."
Author interview with Annie Barrows (http://www.powells.com/authors/anniebarrows.html[/url)
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Juliet is a delight. How not to like her?
Although I was a small child during WW2 my family received numerous letters from my 19 (yes nineteen) Aunts and Uncles who lived through the war in England. Both my parents were English and came from very large families.Much was written about the rationing of food and clothes.
One thing that others may have not noticed , but for me opened a cascade of memories was on page 24...
"I took my golliwog off my bed and put her in the attic".
Now , for some reason I never had a doll. I had games and books and Lincoln Logs, balls, a sled and roller skates-but not a doll. Then my English relatives sent me a Golliwog . It was a He and not a her as Juliet writes about. A Golliwog is a coal black rag doll with kinky black hair and a kind face. That doll also remained on my bed till I was grown. It kept my Teddy bear company and I made up many stories about his life in England.
So Juliet, thanks for the memory.
JudeS
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JoanP, Thank you a hundred times over for finding this wonderful interview. Just when I think I can't get more excited, I come and find yet one more piece to cherish and take from this book. I could only hope to visit Soapstone one day and finish the books I have drafted.
Okay I must pull myself from this computer and go watch the Super Bowl. Or at least get to my son's and play with my darling little grandson, while all the rest hoop and holler at the game.
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Jude, thank you so much for telling us what a golliwog is. I think I've always pictured it as something like a frog. Glad you cleared that up.
Bellamarie, we used to get mail twice a day. I remember when staying long-term with an aunt and uncle in a small town that didn’t have home delivery. Everyone went to the post office to pick up their mail. They could always tell when the mail was in by listening to the train whistles.
JoanP, I believe Mary Ann Shaffer did visit Guernsey, though just how successful her was, I don’t know. This is from the Author’s Biography, up in the heading.
She became interested in Guernsey while visiting London in 1976. On a whim, she decided to fly to Guernsey but became stranded there when a thick fog descended and all boats and planes were forbidden to leave the island. As she waited for the fog to lift, warming herself by the heat of the hand-dryer in the men's restroom, she read all the books in the Guernsey airport bookstore, including Jersey under the Jack-Boot. Thus began her fascination with the German Occupation of the Channel Islands.
How old is Juliet? On page 17, in a letter to Sidney, telling him about new dress and hairdo, she says, “I no longer look a listless, bedraggled thirty-two-year-old, I look a lively, dashing . . . thirty.”
And I just now found (refound) a line I’ve been looking for for days – page. 14 at the bottom, where Juliet has asked Sidney to find info on Mark Reynolds. And she says, “I don’t know whether to feel flattered or hunted.” What do you think?
I love the letter format. It reminds me in some way of a short story – in the sense that in just a few words, or a few pages, we are told so much. And here we have quickly learned that this charming young woman, in spite of the hardships brought on by war, has become a successful writer, that she has been friends with the Stark family since her school days, she’s loyal to her friends and has a keen interest in other people.
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I remember not having new clothes during the war (in the US). Wearing hand-me-downs from much older cousins.
I'm a minority of one, reacting to Juliet. I feel a little reserved from her. I get a feeling that she has spent too much time with "literary" people. When she starts getting letters from people in Guernsey, it's like a breath of fresh air. Maybe she needs them more than they need her.
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So much to talk about...............first of all, i love that on this site we can scroll down and be reminded of what was said and by whom without losing our "reply."
I lived in a small town in Pennsylvania and we got 2 mail deliveries a day until the mid-1950's. We had the same mailman for as long as i could remember. I nice certainty in my life, and a nice man whom everyone knew by name and that he would be showing up at about 10am and about 2 pm.
I like the character Juliet, but i'm not sure i would be too happy being friends w/ a person who would throw a teapot at somebody. I grew up in a very stoic family and someone that "out of control" would have been a little too threatening to me. I also find her too well-adjusted considering how hectic her young life was. Altho i guess upper-class European children accept that they are going to be sent to boarding school - but i still think it must be very hard on their psychological well-being.
I like thinking about the daily living situations that were so different because of the war. We were very lucky in the States to not have the trauma that the Europeans lived thru.........it's rather astonishing that they recovered- first emotionally and then in all the other aspects of living and having gov'ts and economies running - so quickly...............i know it was well into the 50's for real recovery, but that is still "quickly" to me, that a decade or so after having lives and society so disrupted that things were operating almost "normally."
My first aha was on page 15 ( letter of 23rd January to Sidney) where Juliet speaks about the woman she met at a book signing whose dgt had had no contact w/ groups of boys - no dances, teas, flirting. Uummmm. That consequence of war had never crossed my mind and why would mtg groups of boys be scary? What did she know about boys? What had she been told about boys? Can we even begin to understand that?
On page 16 she speaks about how people "enter" bookstores..............I seldom buy books, so when i go to a bookstore i'm there for something in particular, but at the library??..............I wander about and love wandering about, looking for a book that "will strike (my) fancy."
Yes, i too wondered what a gooliwog was, thanks for the explanation.
Enough for now, will return later to see your additional comments............jean
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I was not quite four when the war started and eight when it was over.
I never had any new clothes either. Hand me downs or homemade. I also can remember shoe rationing. My feet kept growing and I remember my mother despairing of having enough coupons for shoes. We had sugar, butter and meat rationing too, but I was young and really don't remember very much of it.
Maryemm who is in England, once posted in the Classics area, the allotment of food for each person over there during the war and the first few years after. It was a real eye opener. We had it so much better here in the States. They were really deprived.
I can never remember having mail delivery twice a day. We were in a rural area, perhaps that's why.
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I love reading this book so much that I don't want to read it for fear I will finish it too soon. When I read a fiction that really draws me in I hate to finish - I feel lost afterwards.
Love how the characters are revealing themselves as the letters progress.
Posted comments are great!
~Marj
ps - wish I had bought the book - so many sentences that I'd love to underlione and comment upon.
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Even here in NZ, where farming is a big part of our economy, my mother said there were many items rationed. I know they looked forward to the American boys ( who spent much time at my grandparents home) bringing things like ham, butter and cream with them. My grandmother cooked and baked for the boys and kept an open home for the Servicemen. Fabrics were also rationed and even after the war ( my mother married in 1946) there was trouble getting fabric for her wedding gown. I believe one of her clients ( She was a hairdresser and beauty therapist in a top Auckland Salon) gave her the fabric for her gown as a wedding present.
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work?
Dawsey mentions he perceived a great sadness in Lambs life. (Did Dawsey have a great sadness I wonder?) Then he mentions the Essay on the Roast Pig. The Essay made him laugh because of the debacle with the Roast Pig and the formation of the Literary society. If it had not been for the Germans catching all of them out after curfew when they had been dining on forbidden roast pig; Dawsey would in all probability never bought the second hand copy of Lambs essays. He may never have heard of Lamb if it had not been for the illicit consumption of the Roast pig.
I have read all of the Brontes works. My favorite author was Charlotte. I recently read "Shirley" the only one of their works I had not tackled. I first read "Jane Eyre" when I was 9 or 10. My mother allowed me to read adult books from the time I was 6 figuring out a lot would go over my head. I read "Jane Eyre" several times. As a teenager. in my twenties and then just a few years ago. I think I have read all their works at least twice except for "Shirley" I like British literature which is not surprising as I was brought up in a country mainly settled by British migrants.
Carolyn
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I don't know what mail service was like in England in 1946, but I had first hand experience of it in 1958. Bob and I spent 3 weeks there in August, 1958. Being rather spontaneous types, we would travel around with a general overall plan, and only figure out in the middle of the day where we would be likely to spend the night. We would pick somewhere to stay out of a guidebook and call them up to see if they had a room. The first time we did this, they said, "Just mail us a confirmation and we'll hold the room" "But it's already lunchtime, and the reservation is for tonight, it'll never work" "Oh, yes it will". And it did work, although the village was 10-20 miles away from where we were. We did that a number of times, and it always worked. I understand mail isn't that good anymore.
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Thank you all for sharing your experiences with your mail deliveries growing up.
mabel1015j..."On page 16 she speaks about how people "enter" bookstores..............I seldom buy books, so when i go to a bookstore i'm there for something in particular, but at the library??..............I wander about and love wandering about, looking for a book that "will strike (my) fancy."
I spend hours browsing in book stores, sometimes just waiting to find that book that jumps out to me. It is one of my favorite things to do. Yet rarely if ever do I visit my local library. I agree with what Juliet says on pg. 16 "It was amazing to me then, and still is, that so many people who wander into bookshops don't really know what they're after--they only want to look around and hope to see a book that will strike their fancy."
I like what Christopher Morley said in his essay, "IOn Visiting Bookshops I"It is a curious thing that so many people only go into a bookshop when they happen to need some particular book. Do they never drop in for a little innocent carouse and refreshment? There are some knightly souls who even go so far as to make their visits to bookshops a kind of chivalrous errantry at large. They go in not because they need any certain volume, but because they feel that there may be some book that needs them. Some wistful, little forgotten sheaf of loveliness, long pining away on an upper shelf—why not ride up, fling her across your charger (or your charge account), and gallop away. Be a little knightly, you book-lovers!"
I also liked Christopher Morley's essay, The Haunted Bookshop, he says about not advertising, "My dear chap, I understand the value of advertising. But in my own case it would be futile. I am not a dealer in merchandise but a specialist in adjusting the book to the human need. Between ourselves, there is no such thing, abstractly, as a `good' book. A book is `good' only when it meets some human hunger or refutes some human error. A book that is good for me would very likely be punk for you. My pleasure is to prescribe books for such patients as drop in here and are willing to tell me their symptoms. Some people have let their reading faculties decay so that all I can do is hold a post mortem on them. But most are still open to treatment. There is no one so grateful as the man to whom you have given just the book his soul needed and he never knew it. No advertisement on earth is as potent as a grateful customer."
I am a person who MUST own any book I read. I don't mind buying it on Amazon used, because so many times, I, like Juliet have side bars of notes or highlighted sentences or quotes so I can find them quickly when I want to refer back to it.
Although, after reading about the dark librarian fellow, I feel I may be missing out on something by not frequenting my local library. :-[
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I might feel like Christopher Morley does about bookstores if i had a cozy, friendly little shop to go to, but all we have around here for the last 2 decades are BnN and Borders, altho everyone at Borders is very nice and helpful, i hope they don't go away, but still it's a merchandise mart to me, not a nice place to go. I will buy books when i have come across one that i want to underline and comment in, or keep and re-read. Usually those are non-fiction books, altho i have bought fiction books, especially ones that i am reading for a f2f book group. I just don't have the money or the space for all the books i want to read - or take a chance on. And for 45 yrs i have told my students, my children and everyone that "the library is the best thing since the Gutenberg printing press. You can find out anything you want to know AND ITS FREE!"
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Isola makes two interesting comments about men in her 19th February letter.....In the third paragraph she says "men are more interesting in books than they are in real life." I must say, i have to agree w/ that statement in general. I think women writers write male characters that they would like and men write male characters in the way they think men should be, or the way they perceive them. And i find that men often are very different in their relationships w/ women than they are in their relationships w/ men. When my husband read "The Notebook" by Nicholas Sparks, he said " that's a woman author, a man wouldn't have written that book. All the women like the book because the (lead character- i've forgotten his name) is the man that every woman hopes will come into her life. " ..................................And in the second half of the letter she says "I have a parrot in my keeping too - her name is Zenobia and she doesn't like men." That got me thinking that every time i've heard someone say some animal doesn't like______ - it's always "men." Has anyone had the same. or different experience? I also wondered if those are clues to something else we may find out about Isola at a later time.
Juliet says her encyclopedia says that Guernsey is 'roughly seven miles long and five miles wide, w/ a population of 42,000 inhabitants.' I was surprised at that, it was a much bigger population on a much smaller island than i was imagining. A bit more crowded than i thought.
jean
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I dont have the book yet. Sigh.. But I am reading all of your entrees and it all sounds wonderful. So I will keep it up until the book arrives.
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Good morning, book lovers everywhere!
Did you see that Punxsutawney Phil has seen his shadow - 6 more weeks to huddle inside with our books without feeling guilty about the garden...
Steph, Janice, please stay with us until your books catch up with you! There is so much here to read in the meantime. I've spent nearly an hour marvelling over the observations, the quotes, chasing down references. Thank you all so much for your contributions - they are making this discussion so much more than we could have hoped for!
The book is turning out to be more than about love and the war and Guernsey - it is about booklovers, books - and the contents therein. Wonderful to see what is happening here - inspiring you all to pick up books that would not have occurred before this conversation.
Ann, you will be interested to know that the youngest of the Bronte sisters, Anne, wrote two novels - Agnes Grey and Wildfell Hall - both available to read online - and I checked our local library and both are still on the shelves. Who knew?
Yesterday we focused on Juliet and whether MA Shaffer has succeeded in portraying a believable character through these letters.
Love how the characters are revealing themselves as the letters progress. MarjV.
It is helpful to know that some of us have not quite warmed up to Juliet yet. It will be interesting to hear from you, JoanK and Jean,to learn if you change your mind about her as her letters reveal more about her personality - OR if Juliet herself changes with her association with the Guernsey literary society.
Need coffee, back in a few minutes. More questions for you this morning.
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So, Juliet is a 32 year old, career girl, a writer, in search of a project. Would she be considered a spinster - or were there many young unmarried women in London following the war? She exhibits a sense of humor, and doesn't seem at all desparate to find a man. She is more focused on finding the right topic for her next book.
There was a fiance - I'll be honest, I did not find him believable. I think MA Shaffer erred in this portrayal on one glaring detail. It's the day before her wedding. She packs away half of her beloved collection of books, even puts her "golliwog" away, giving him plenty of space for his belongings. I'd understand that she would be quite unhappy to find that he cleared away ALL of her books to make room for his stuff. But for his athletic trophies? I have four sons, and not a one of them even wants to take his trophies out of my basement. This detail made him and unbelievable character to me - and reminded me that this was fiction, after all.
What I did appreciate was the irony of the incident. Her books were all lost when the bomb struck!
Thank you so much for your "golliwog" memories. I never had one, I never even heard of them - Where was I? I looked them up, hoping I would recognize one if I saw him/her -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e3/GeorgieandWolly.JPG/220px-)
Never saw one. Thought it odd to find this golliwog in London - but read in this
history of the golliwog (http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/) that they were a favorite toy in London - among little girls and little boys too.
There was even a popular
"Golliwog Gone" song (http://www.golliwog.com.au/process.php?PHPSESSID=cc7258287d503c030bce3724b64876bc&pname=ShowAlbumDetailsProcess-Start&CategoryID=CategoryID&AlbumID=1) Maybe you can hear it? You have to scroll down and click the first set of musical notes . It's about a little boy whose dolly is taken away from him - for "unknown reasons." Sounds like a pacifier...
Oh dear, all out of time - wanted to comment on your posts concerning the tough economic situation post-war. We Americans experienced something so different. I never gave much thought to the fact that times were so bad in London - that 'rationing was more stringent after the war than during the war."
Juliet writes that everything is so gloomy, gloomier than after the war. Everything broken, roads, buildings and especially the people."
If she's writing about conditions in London, can you imagine what it was like on post-war Guernsey?
And yet, the Guernsians are interested in books...Charles Lamb.
Shall we focus our attention on the little island (only 7 miles long!) - and on Dawsey Adam's first letter to Juliet today - and how she responded?
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"..she was one of those people for whom starting was easy, but continuing was hard."
Joan, I knew someone like that. She would start many books in her mind, and discuss the stories with me in detail. But she couldn't write...couldn't even spell, actually. I tried to help her with a couple by taking her notes and typing them up into a readable form, but it didn't work.
On men and their trophies, some seem to be like your sons, very casual about the whole thing. Others, tho', seem to regard their trophies as evidence of their viriliy, or something. I believed this guy wanted everything on display; I just found it hard to believe Juliet hadn't suspected what a drip this guy was before that.
You asked about comparisons of postward London and Guernsey. I think it must have been much worse in London than in Guernsey. Guernsey wasn't bombed into rubble. London had to have been a very depressing place, with years of work staring them in the face to clean up and rebuild.
I have been impressed with the way the authors convey what London was really like after the war, in just a few words planted here and there. Like when Juliet was persuaded to buy a new dress: “I felt like a traitor to crown and country; no decent woman has new clothes----”.
Wasn’t that a lovely scene where Juliet is attacked after one of her tour talks by the man for using the name of ‘The true Isaac Bickerstaff’? And a woman in the audience jumps up and shows what an ass he is, because there never was a real Isaac Bickerstaff. It was a pseudonym for Joseph Addison. I didn’t know that myself, and what a fun way to learn it!
And didn’t you like this? : “…booksellers really are a special breed. No one in their right mind would take up clerking in a bookstore for the salary, and no one in his right mind would want to own one -- the margin of profit is too small. So, it has to be a love of readers and reading that mkes them do it --along with first dibs on the new books.'
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Golliwog Cake Walk!!!!! Oh my gosh, I think I still have the sheet music to that –
ba bop ba bop bop
bop bop ba bop
It sounds a little different, here. :-[
So Guernsey the island is about 25-35 square miles. According to the Wikipedia article, it has grown a bit since 1946 – population now approx. 65,000, but not an incredible amount over the past 60 years. Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey)
I’m so glad the book includes a map, and looking at the letters, it seems that most of our folk so far, Dawsey, Amelia, Isola, live in St. Martin’s parish, which is about 3 sq miles in area, and today has a population of about 6 thousand. I’m not sure where Eben lives. It’s only when Juliet first writes someone that we get their address.
But right now, our friends apparently must live close enough to walk. (Have just watched the first two parts of Island at War, and the Germans have confiscated all vehicles, and they are banned for local people.)
Jean, it seems everyone is involved is farming of some sort and/or raising animals. Maybe that’s why we thought Guernsey was bigger.
I just found it hard to believe Juliet hadn't suspected what a drip this guy was before that.
from Babi
Babi, I don't know if he was a drip or not, but I was surprised, too, they hadn't discovered these things about each other. And didn't Juliet wonder, what had they talked about.
Have to run a bit, but back later to hear your thoughts about Dawsey. I like him already.
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1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a fictitious character?
As I have stated prior, to me Juliet is real. She is very amusing, caring, loyal, unselfish, intelligent, loves books and a risk taker. So far, the most important thing I have learned about Juliet through the exchange of her letters is that she is an honest person. When she was willing to have Bella Taunton give a character reference to Mrs. Maugery it showed she was willing to be fair and honest, because she knew she did not especially hold high esteem in Lady Bella Taunton's eyes. Would you be willing to take such a risk, of allowing someone you know may not give a good reference to someone else about yourself? That was a calculated risk Juliet took, and a very good way to win Mrs. Maugery's trust.
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work?
Dawsey says on pg. 9, "For all his bright and turning mind, I think Mr. Lamb must have had a great sadness in his life. Charles Lamb made me laugh during the German Occupation, especially when he wrote about the roast pig. The Gurensey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society came into being because of a roast pig we had to keep secret from the German soldiers, so I feel a kinship to Mr. Lamb."
I see Dawsey being able to relate to Mr. Lamb, in the sense they have both experienced sad times, yet were able to get through them with a bit of humor. As we know through Lamb's Essays, he lived through witnessing his own sister take the life of his mother, due to a mental breakdown. Sad times I dare say.
"I never would have made it if I could not have laughed. It lifted me momentarily out of this horrible situation, just enough to make it livable."
-Viktor Frankl, re:surviving the Nazi death camps
Juliet and Charles Lamb along with many others were able to survive and help others with their humor in such unbearable times.
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society?
As Amelia stated on pg.49, "..our dear Elizabeth McKenna, who manufactured the story on the spot, bless her quick wits and silver tongue."
Can you imagine, Elizabeth a small lady as described, stepping up and concocting a lie to the German soldiers, knowing she was taking a risk of being jailed?
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
pg. 38 Mrs. Maugery says, "I realize that our name, the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society, is an unusual one and could easily be subjected to ridicule. Would you assure me you will not be tempted to do so? The Society members are very dear to me, and I do not wish them to be perceived as objects of fun by your readers."
Since Mrs. Maugery states a friend of hers had sent her a copy of Izzy Bickerstaff Goes to War, and while she found the book informative as it was entertaining and amusing, she was concerned about "the amusing tone." Amelia did not want Juliet to use their Society for fodder to her readers.
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
I believe the references from Bella Taunton and Rev. Simon Simples is what convinced Amelia to trust Juliet. Although, Juliet was a tad offended by her suspicions, she understood, and complied to honor her request to prove her worthiness. I feel this allowed Amelia to trust Juliet with their Society.
I have to say in typing Simon Simples, I had to giggle, because I am imagining Mary Anne thinking up names for her characters in this book, and deciding on this name. For me if I turn it around it reminds me of the riddle, Simple Simon meet a pie man...... Some more of Mary Anne/Juliet's humor peeking through. :)
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I see Dawsey being able to relate to Mr. Lamb, in the sense they have both experienced sad times, yet were able to get through them with a bit of humor.
Oh goodness, Bellamarie, you have covered the whole week's discussion in one post! I promise to focus fully on your responses to later questions.
But let's slow down a wee bit and consider what you have to say about Adam Dawsey. In his first letter we are introduced to both Charles Lamb's essay on roast pig - and a hint that the book club owed its beginnings to a roasted pig. Does it mention here that Dawsey is/was a pig farmer himself?
Have you all had a chance to read Lamb's Dissertation Upon Roast Pig (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb/dissertation_upon_roast_pig/)? I was interested in the part of the essay that spoke to the innocence, the purity of the newborn piglets. I was struck by the parallel to the members of the Guernsey literary society, new to literature for the most part, pure and honest in their response, unaided by teachers, critics...
How did Juliet respond to this letter...in which she is reminded of her old copy of Lamb's essays? I can't help but think of her own frustration at the moment with writing more of Izzy Bickerstaff....humorous stories she wrote during the war that helped Londoners cope with hard times.
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The very best bookshops to frequent are second hand bookshops. They are owned by genuine book lovers. Many a great discussion is held at the cash desk while you are paying for the book you have chosen. Second hand book store owners leave you alone to browse but are more than willing to help if you need it. I don't buy books any more. I would not have room to store all the books I read and the cost of books in NZ currency is prohibitive on my budget.
We have two major chains of bookstores here. One of them has a mail order department and it is there that you can get the best assistance. The genuine book lovers seem to work in this department. At the stores the assistants are nothing more than cashiers. Most of them I doubt read books at all.
Carolyn
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I still haven't received my book but am enjoying the comments.
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Sorry, JoanP, I guess I did get a bit ahead of myself and others. I will try to restrain myself. I woke up this morning with much vim & vigor.
Kiwilady, I so agree with you. I visited a neat little hidden second hand book store when on vacation in Marblehead (a quaint, nautical, lakeside town, surrounded by islands.) As I walked in, the smell of dusty, old bindings and pages was overwhelming. I didn't know where to begin searching. My hubby saw the gleam in my eyes, walked out, and sat on the front porch swing, and patiently waited. He knew it would be a while.
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I have to be honest about the Lamb Essay on the Roast Pig. I found it repugnant. However I am a rabid animal lover.
Carolyn
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JoanP,
Thank you for that picture of the little girl with the Golliwog. I looked like that little girl with blonde curls and my Golliwog looked just like the one in the picture. Wow!
Now for some literary trivia as related to this discussion .
I have always loved the quote by Cicero:
"A room without books is like a body without a soul".
In the Wikipedia article on Cicero (106BC-43BC) you will find that much of Cicero's writing is in the form of letters to his friend Atticus.
Cicero , who was Roman, introduced the art of fine letter writing to European culture.
So Seneca, who many of you have mentioned, had a predecessor to learn from since he was born some 40 years after Cicero's death.
If anyone is interested there is a great site of quotes on Google . Just put in the name Cicero and then choose Quotes from among the many listed suggestions.
Jude
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I'm with you, Kiwilady, re: the essay on roast pig. I am totally repelled at the notion of roasting suckling pig! I have to forgive Lamb for that essay since I like the rest of his work so much. After all, he was a man of his time. I don't want to compare the Guernsey book club folks to pigs either!!! HoHo.
It's amazing, isn't it, that there was room for farms and so many people on such a little island! The farms must have been really small, just enough to sustain a family. There were probably not very many cars - bikes would have been used a lot.
If I remember correctly, marmalade from Scotland used to have a Golliwog on it's label. Gollies often accompanied teddy bears in the nursery. Since I'm a "bear person", I bought a Golly whilst in England - he was in an antique market and was missing one eye. Now my one-eyed Golly has lots of bears to keep him company ( I believe they were always male) plus a couple more gollies that I made.
2nd-hand bookshops are disappearing at an alarming rate so if there is an out-of-print book you are looking for, the public library will spring into action and request it from a network if it's not in their catalog. Libraries are great for browsing in, too. I swear I couldn't live without our library even though I have a ton of books of my own and there is Amazon on-line and a B&N a few miles away. Not that having worked in our library for twenty some years (and retired for another 20 years) makes me a tad prejudiced!!! Laugh, laugh. (How does one chuckle in print?)
I do really like Juliet - she seems so real and just the sort of person you would want as a friend.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/glitpotpeelpie2.jpg) |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Imagine a book club in a place where there is not a single book store! This is exactly what Mary Ann Shaffer and her niece, Annie Barrows have done as they draw us into the engaging relationship betweeen Juliet Aston and the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. Perhaps their story explains the popularity of book clubs everywhere.
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Topics for Discussion during Week 1
1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work?
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society?
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
5. What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society? What do your own choices reveal about you?
6. What did you learn about the German occupation of Guernsey in these pages? How do you think the Islanders managed to survive the occupaton for five years?
7. "Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones." Do you agree with Isola? Will you share your favorite references to books and reading in these pages?
8. What did you find especially meaningful in this first section; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941. (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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I was amazed to learn that the citizens of Guernsey had no news of the world while the Germans occupied the island (five years). Dawsey mentions in his letter of January 31, 1946: "Some things being sent to us are wrapped up in old newspaper and magazine pages. My friend Clovis and I smooth them out and take them home to read." I've done that - gotten a package with old newspaper stuffing the spaces and smoothed them out and read them. Fascinating. But I can't imagine not knowing what's going on in the world for a day, let alone five years!
I also loved Juliet's comment in her January 15, 1946 letter, "Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader." I feel so special knowing that some of the books I've read were especially for me.
Nancy
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Kiwilady and JoanR, I have to say I am so glad to hear you express you were repelled with Charles Lamb's Pig Roast essay. I was thinking the same thoughts and held them back for fear of being critical of Lamb. When JoanP mentioned, "I was interested in the part of the essay that spoke to the innocence, the purity of the newborn piglets. " I personally felt very sad for them little piglets, and was sickened by the thought of them being the favored to eat. But then again I HATE red meat and pork. I am an animal lover, and think of Bambi every time my nephews go deer hunting. :'(
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I am enjoying reading all the posts. I still am number ten on the library list and I am anxious to meet Julia.
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Pigs are very smart as anyone who hand rears a piglet will find out. Experiments conducted here found that pigs are smarter than dogs. That totally put me off pork which I was not that keen on anyhow. Pigs squeal and know they are going to be killed when taken for slaughter. They react more than any other animal which is about to be slaughtered. I have a friend who has a pet pig. Its smarter than the whole bunch of her little companion dogs. It was the pig that got the dog pellets out of the pantry and gave it to the rest of the pets while my friend was at work. All the dogs were sick from overeating. He did it again one morning when my friend slept in and she caught him in the act.
Carolyn
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I was interested in the part of the essay that spoke to the innocence, the purity of the newborn piglets. I was struck by the parallel to the members of the Guernsey literary society, new to literature for the most part, pure and honest in their response, unaided by teachers, critics...
from JoanP
Joan, what a keen eye there, to pick up on that.
This was my first reading of Lamb’s essay about suckling pigs. and I must say, that never having had a close association with pigs of any sort, it really did not bother me. I thought it was funny. And if it helped someone cope with the indignities of wartime occupation, so much the better. Truthfully, it made me think of the “lechon,” the roast pig (big) that we had at holiday time in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, and made me wonder how long it had been since I had fixed a fresh ham. Years.
In his letter to Juliet, Dawsey says that all the pigs are gone. Even after the war we find that there is still rationing and of course, shortages. Did your mothers ever say to you, when you didn’t want to eat something on your plate, “Think of all the starving children in Europe.”
Nancy, that’s almost unbelievable, isn’t it. Someone not having any news of the outside world for almost FIVE YEARS. How would you begin to catch up? Thanks for pointing out Juliet’s comment, "Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader." We’re seeing some wonderful quotes about books here, aren’t we.
Jude, I love the one from Cicero -- "A room without books is like a body without a soul". We’re supposed to get to Cicero this year in Latin. I hope that quote will be in our reading and that I’ll recognize it.
I have one on a sweatshirt that's hanging in the laundry room -- a gift from a friend when I retired from the high schoo library -- "I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library" - Jorge Luis Borges
Going back to Dawsey, he sounded like a shy man -- (and then Amelia Maugery said as much) -- he stuttered as a child. That would be inhibiting. He'd never been to a dinner party. But he seems a kind man, and not one afraid to do what he thinks is right. He made sure his friend Booker got home from the party. He sent flowers to Juliet, by way of the lawyer. And when he writes, he doesn't seem shy at all.
Had anyone heard of Doodle-bug before? Did you know what they were?
FlaJean and Janice, you have not been forgotten. So glad you're staying with us.
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I had heard of the Doodlebug as my dad had been home on leave to London when they were in the midst of the deluge of these rockets by the Germans. He told us about them and how quiet they were and how lethal.
Carolyn
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Seneca, now Cicero! Thanks for bringing us that quote, Jude. I'll remember it whenever I'm tempted to downsize my bookshelves. Babi, I'm with you - I don't understand either how Juliet didn't know until the eve of her wedding what a " drip" she was marrying. All of her books! A shelf full of trophies! Like "a body without a soul!" I'm not so sure she isn't dazzled by the new American fellow sending her spring flowers in January, roses, orchids... Does she not question his extravagance? He seems lacking in substance so far.
Pedln, I agree, there have been wonderful quotes on books in these posts and from the book. We need to scoop them up and save them before we go much further. We can't have MarjV scribbling in her library book!
Juliet marvels at the fact that her book turned up in a shop on Guernsey. Didn't it turn up in a used book store? Annie Barrows writes that both she and her Aunt Mary Ann worked in a book store together - so the authors know books and bookstores.
"Perhaps there is some secret sort of homing instinct in books that brings them to their perfect reader."
I 'd like to think this is so, Nancy, I'm just not so sure I believe it .
Carolyn - I've been thinking about what you said earlier about second hand book shops. I can't remember the last time I visited one...there are still a few here in Arlington. Two of them are in old houses...very old houses, each room filled with shelves of books. I'm not sure why I don't go in them. As you say, the proprietors are the 'genuine book lovers,' they have a real interest in the books that they have acquired. As I tried to think of the last time I went inside a used book store, I suddenly thought of Shakespeare and Co. in Paris. Oh, don't I sound like a name dropper? I went in on purpose and it was everything I had hoped it would be. The proprietor, George Whitman knew the legendary Sylvia Beach...I think he claimed to be a relative - He named his daughter Sylvia Beach Whitman. He took me all around the shop, up to the third floor for tea and offered me a room to live in while I was in Paris. FREE. I'm not making this up! This bookstore overlooks Notre Dame... on the Left Bank My husband was underwhelmed when I told him afterward - and we continued our stay at the hotel he had reserved for us. But this was the used book store daddy of them all!
But Carolyn, I'm going to make a point to go to one of the local used shops for the experience.
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Seems our discussion has gone to the pigs, Gollywogs and Doodlebugs. Imagine what someone would think just joining us. ::)
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OK, now I'm feeling bad that I ever laughed at the essay, Bellamarie, JoanR, Carolyn!
Do you think, (I'm just guessing about this) that Lamb's humorous essay on the discovery of roasting meat...making us laugh at the slaughter of the newborn piglets and then talking about their innocence was intentional? If that was his intention, to inspire repugnance at the slaughter of innocents, then he is worthy of our forgiveness, would you say, JoanR ? Are we supposed to be appalled, did Lamb intend us to be?
Consider the context - Juliet tires of writing her humorous stories of Izzy Bickerstaff goes to War - a humorous approach to the slaughter of untold millions. Lamb's essay may have been chosen to emphasize the fact that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it. What do you think? There is more than the pig essay that draws Adam Dawsey to Charles Lamb - though he was a pig farmer before the war. You've noted that he picked up on Lamb's sadness from his essays, without knowing anything about Lamb's troubled mind or the family tragedy. Will we find similar sadness in Dawsey's life? Maybe there is something to the secret homing instinct of books to the perfect reader after all.
(How does one chuckle in print?) LOL? Or is laughing out loud too loud for a chuckle, Nancy?
Good night everyone. Maybe Gum will come in, like the tooth fairy, while we are sleeping?
Robertson's Scottish marmalade - I looked it up. Kids saved the labels with the golly image to earn little prizes, little broaches with the golliwog's image. Where was I when all this was going on?
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Joan P - I agree. I don't find the fiancee believable either.
What I'm liking best about the book are the island characters. Wouldn't you just love to be sitting with the
having a conversation for hours.
Losing interest in Juliet as an intneresting person (I guess that doesn't give anything away) but
in my sleepess night I was thinking about her.
I like these for laughing out loud. :D ;D
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JoanP, "Lamb's essay may have been chosen to emphasize the fact that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it. What do you think?"
Forgive me for reposting this, but I guess I did get a bit ahead of everyone else yesterday, so I guess this fits better in answering JoanP's question today.
Dawsey says on pg. 9, "For all his bright and turning mind, I think Mr. Lamb must have had a great sadness in his life. Charles Lamb made me laugh during the German Occupation, especially when he wrote about the roast pig. The Gurensey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society came into being because of a roast pig we had to keep secret from the German soldiers, so I feel a kinship to Mr. Lamb."
I see Dawsey being able to relate to Mr. Lamb, in the sense they have both experienced sad times, yet were able to get through them with a bit of humor. As we know through Lamb's Essays, he lived through witnessing his own sister take the life of his mother, due to a mental breakdown. Sad times I dare say.
"I never would have made it if I could not have laughed. It lifted me momentarily out of this horrible situation, just enough to make it livable."
-Viktor Frankl, re:surviving the Nazi death camps
I think, Juliet and Charles Lamb, along with many others were able to survive and help others, with their humor in such unbearable times.
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I've been giving a lot of thought about the fiancee', and I have mixed feelings with Mary Anne's way of writing this. I ask myself, how could Juliet get so upset and call off a wedding because of him replacing her books with his trophies, awards etc.? It seems a shallow reason for Mary Anne to create and make believable to the readers. Did Juliet not truly love him? Did books mean more to her, than discussing with him respect for each others space? Was Juliet ready for marriage? Some of you have seen the fiancee' as a cad. I am looking at it from another perspective. If you truly love someone, and you are just a day or so from marrying this person, wouldn't you be deliriously happy and not worrying about the fact your bookshelves have been take over?
MarjV.."Losing interest in Juliet as an interesting person (I guess that doesn't give anything away) but in my sleepess night I was thinking about her."
Hmmmm....an interesting statement. Have you read ahead? Is she too good to be true? OK, enough I shall wait to see.
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It's the tooth fairy! :D
Seems our discussion has gone to the pigs, Gollywogs and Doodlebugs. Imagine what someone would think just joining us. ::)
Well, They might just think we were discussing a good book. ;)
Golliwogs were popular here when I was a child though I didn't have one. It is now 'politically incorrect' to use the term 'golliwog' here. Enid Blyton's series of children's books had 'gollies' in them but the British expunged all references to them when the word was seen to be a racist term.
I think most of us here are animal lovers and deplore wholesale slaughter of animals for whatever reason - but I don't think we should regret appreciating the humour in Lamb's burnt pig essay. Even though Lamb was addressing serious questions such as the slaughter of innocents, he is also saying things about man's ingenuity and adaptability. That he did it with humour is testament to his skill in presenting his argument.
Dawsey is responding to Lamb at a sub-conscious level - it's not just the association of the roasted pig which he says leads him to feel a kinship to Mr.Lamb- he also recognises a sadness in Lamb which resonates within himself though Dawsey knows not why.
I love this bit - From Juliet to Dawsey 15th January 1946:
That's what I love about reading: one thing will interest you in a book, and that tiny thing will lead you on to another book, and another bit there will lead you on to a third book. It's geometrically progressive - all with no end in sight, and for no other reason than sheer enjoyment
I can begin to count up how many times that has been true during my lifetime - but it really is more than sheer enjoyment it's the stuff of life itself.
Joan P You certainly take the cake for secondhand bookstore stories - who could top your Paris tale ?
We have lots of secondhand bookstores around the suburbs - some are specialised and stock particular genres others are more eclectic and of course there are the rare and antique booksellers whose prices are often astronomical - sometimes for titles and editions I have on my own shelves - but I bet if I offered my copies for sale they wouldn't fetch two bob.
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Since I once owned a used book store, I will say that the reason for the disappearing stores is rent.. Noone who owns a used book store makes much if any money. They are mostly labors of great love of reading. But landlords need rent money. The only ones left tend to own their store building.. And there are not many of them indeed.
Am enjoying the discussion and Amazon said yesterday they had shipped the books.
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Gumtree..."Golliwogs were popular here when I was a child though I didn't have one. It is now 'politically incorrect' to use the term 'golliwog' here. Enid Blyton's series of children's books had 'gollies' in them but the British expunged all references to them when the word was seen to be a racist term."
Yes, Gumtree you are quite correct about the racist term. I found this interesting article.
Black Irish: the Gollywog
Gollywogs, or Golly Dolls have been around for quite a while in Ireland. The Gollywog developed as a household toy after Africans started to come to Ireland from the African missions to study at universities and seminaries in Dublin and Maynooth.
The "Gollywog" name was borrowed from the English in the 19th Century, and the story of how that name evolved is quite an interesting one. England carried out active slave trading with the Carolinas well into the middle of the 19th Century, where Gulla was one of the many African dialects/languages spoken by slaves taken from their African homelands.
The intellectual leap from Gulla to "Golly" was not a big one and somewhere along the line the derogatory term "Wog", meaning somebody with tight, curly, black hair, which originated in India during England's establishment of its Empire there was tacked on to give the name "Gollywog". The Irish it may also have been the Anglo-Irish class in Ireland adopted the name for their black dolls. Incidentally, Gulla is still spoken by some inhabitants of the Carolinas today.
A second type of Gollywog was developed by an American woman, who, stranded and destitute in London at the beginning of this century, first made Gollywogs as a copy of vaudeville black face singers. These tail-coated, male dolls were very popular children's toys until the 1960s, when the British government, prompted by subjects returning from now independent British colonies, banned their manufacture and sale, and removed all the Gollywog dolls from State-run nursery schools.
Withstanding time, Golly Dolls retain their unique place alongside Teddy bears and dolls as companions, and remain an integral part of Irish life.
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Marj, you’re tough! We will have to watch our Juliet. :-*
Second hand bookstores. I love them. When I go to the one here I am always surprised at how much they have. Mostly fiction, but I have found titles that I didn’t expect would be there. And they give a credit when you bring in books, that can be used for their books.
I love this bit - From Juliet to Dawsey 15th January 1946:
That's what I love about reading: one thing will interest you in a book, and that tiny thing will lead you on to another book, and another bit there will lead you on to a third book. It's geometrically progressive - all with no end in sight, and for no other reason than sheer enjoyment
from Gum
And, while I don’t equate them, reading on the Internet does much the same, as many of us have experienced that right here on this site.
No one can top Joan’s bookstore story, but I do have one from a British bookstore. Back in the late 70’s I was an ‘old,’ but nevertheless newly minted librarian, visiting my brother and SIL in Chicago. So I invited my SIL to join me at the ALA convention, visiting the vast array of hugh exhibits only. As we approached the area of a British bookseller, SIL whispered “Eddie has done business with them.” (My brother has very eclectic tastes in old books). A gentleman approached, “May I help you ladies?” “My husband has bought books from you.” “Oh, name please.” “Evenson.” “Oh, A. Edward?” We picked our jaws up from the floor and ascertained that it was indeed our Ed who had bought the books.
Gum and Bellamarie, thanks for explaining about the racial aspects of Golliwog. I wondered about that when I read one of the links. Interesting that it came from the word Gulla. Middle of the night thinking -- we go through life just accepting some words just for their sound, never wondering where they came from. Why did my piano teacher never explain what a Golliwog was?
Steph, glad to hear your input about bookstores. That probably carries over to the independent booksellers, too, and one wonders what happen when all that's left are a few huge chains. But that's a topic for someplace else.
Off to check out the parking lot at the swimming pool. Finally.
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I can understand Juliet dumping her fiance. If you think about it the man packed up all her precious books and was ready to replace that which was so dear to her with his sports trophies.
Juliet quite rightly assumed that this was a sign of what their married life would be like. No consultation with her and his interests would always come first. In other words she saw a future in which all decisions would be taken by her fiance and she would have little input into their life together. I don't blame Juliet. It shows she was a woman before her time. She wanted a partnership in her marriage. A marriage in which decisions were shared and their differences were respected. She realised before it was too late that she would not get this type of relationship with the man she was engaged to.
Carolyn
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I questioned whether Juliet was really in love, and ready to get married at all, due to these particular statements from her.... When questioned by the reporter she said,
pg. 19 "I didn't jilt him at the altar-it was the day before. And he wasn't humiliated- he was relieved. I simply told him that I didn't want to be married after all. Believe me, Mr. Gilbert, he left a happy man-delighted to be rid of me." When Gilbert said, "OH-HO!" he smirked, "What was it, then? Drink? Other women? A touch of the old Oscar Wilde?" That is when Juliet threw the teapot."
Then on pg. 20 Juliet's best friend Susan says, "All I could get her to say to me was that Rob Dartry was a good man, a very good man- none of it was his fault-and he did not deserve this!"
pg. 23 In Juliet's letter to Sidney she says, "I am so glad I didn't embarrass S&S about Gilly and the teapot-I was worried. Susan suggested I make a dignified statement" to the press too, about Rob Dartry and why we did not marry. I couldn't possibly do that. I honestly don't think I'd mind looking like a fool, if it didn't make Rob look a worse one. But it would- and of course, he wasn't a fool at all."
pg.24 "I thought I was in love (that's the pathetic part-my idea of being in love).
pg.25 "All I could do was scream, "How dare you! What have you DONE?! Put my books back!" ........Eventually, I said something to the effect that I could never marry a man whose idea of bliss was to strike out at little balls and little birds."
With all due respect, Kiwilady, I don't feel "this is a woman before her time." In my opinion, this is a woman who sounds like it didn't take much to set her off. By her own admission, HE was relieved to be free of HER, and was a very good man. Juliet, did not in any way, want anyone to blame Rob or see him in a bad way. I think she reacted tempermental, and may have not been ready for married life and sharing her space, as much as she tried to prepare for it.
After all the glitz and glitter has wore off of beginning this book, I have been having some second thoughts about Juliet's personality. I will see where they take me.
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We don't have any second-hand bookstores around where I live. So I frequent summer yard sales and the library book sales. Most of my books come from the local library association. If I particularly like a book I've read, I'll buy it. I've bought Guernsey.
I guess I lived a sheltered childhood. I've never heard of a golliwog doll. I'm getting quite an education.
Isn't it interesting that two men in Juliet's life are sending her flowers: Markham, who's just flooding her with them, and Dawsey, who's sent white lilacs: "How did you know I like white lilacs above all flowers?" --Juliet's letter February 20, 1946. A coincidence? A hint of things to come?
Nancy
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Aberlaine - I like Juliet. I thought she was quite boring in the first few letters but as I read I begin to like her more.
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One thing we mustn't forget about Juliet's engagement is the atmosphere of wartime London. Everything was unstable, different from normal, and you might get killed at any time. Whirlwind courtships and marriages between people who didn't know each other well were common, especially when one of the pair was about to go off to active duty, as Rob was.
But still, Juliet obviously does have a short fuse. And it's unbelievable she wouldn't have noticed he didn't care for books. But what Rob did would have definitely been a deal breaker for me, too. She had clearly divided up the space 50-50, yet he waited until she was gone and boxed up her things without even checking with her.
I never even heard of a golliwog until I was grown up.
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But still, Juliet obviously does have a short fuse. And it's unbelievable she wouldn't have noticed he didn't care for books. But what Rob did would have definitely been a deal breaker for me, too. She had clearly divided up the space 50-50, yet he waited until she was gone and boxed up her things without even checking with her.
pg. 24 "In preparation for sharing my home with a husband, I made room for him so he wouldn't feel like a visiting aunt. I cleared out half my dresser drawers, half my closet, half my medicine chest, half my desk." One afternoon before our wedding, Rob was moving in the last of his clothes and belongings while I delivered my Izzy article to the Spector."......... "He said, Hello, darling. Don't mind the mess, the porter said he'd help me carry these down to the basement." He nodded toward my bookshelves and said, "Don't they look wonderful?"
She made space everywhere for him except the bookshelves. Did she NOT intend him to have any space on them? I don't see where it indicates, he waited until she was gone, as to be calculating. His asking, "Don't they look wonderful?", clearly indicates he did not see where he had done anything wrong, on the contrary he was concerned she would be upset about the mess she came home to and reassured her he was going to have it cleaned up. It appears Juliet and Rob both, intended 100% ownership to the bookshelves, to hold what was near and dear to them, (Juliet, her books, and Rob, his personal achievements.) I would not see this as a reason to call off a wedding, if anything I would see this as an opportunity for the two of them to communicate with each other their desire for the space and agree to share half as she did all the other areas of the home. Keep in mind, Juliet repeatedly expressed what a very nice man Rob was.
I guess you need to forgive me, I work with our Pre cana couples in our church to help prepare them to look at situations that will arise in their relationships once they are married, and to discuss them before the big day, so it will help prevent situations as Juliet and Rob's. We have them discuss the joining of bank accounts, credit cards, houses, etc. I guess book shelves never have come up.
I suppose for those who see the bookshelves as a deal breaker to call of the wedding, and those like me, who don't, we must at this point respectfully, agree to disagree.
I do still like Juliet, very much. I am just seeing other sides to her.
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I never had a golliwog doll either, never even heard of them. I thought she was referring to a green or yellow octupus with many legs, which I seem to remember on many of my girlfriends' beds. (I had a teddy bear).
As far as Juliet's engagement goes. I just chalked it up to her inexperience with men and the war time atmosphere of live today because tomorrow we may be dead.
That man must have been really full of himself to pack up her books and put all his trophies in their place. She just looked down the long road of life and realized that it would just be more of the same. Everything his way. And had the good sense to get off that particular merry-go-round.
This sure is a good discussion. I'm learning all kinds of new things.
Evelyn
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JOANP I think tha bookstore proprietor was simply so pleased to find someone he could visit with and talk to, he wanted to keep you as a guest. But perhaps your hubby thought he was too interested in you. ;D
Kiwilady...exactly! "This was a sign of what their married life would be like. No consultation with her and his interests would always come first."
Sorry, Bellemarie, but IMO these two were not suited to each other, and it would have been a tragedy if they had ignored the warning signals and gotten married anyway.
I read the link on Chas. Lamb's life, and it was indeed a troubled one. His beloved sister had a recurring mental illness. During one of her episodes, she did stab her mother. Between recurrences, she was apparently a sweet, intelligent woman, who always knew when the symptoms began developing again, but was helpless to do anything about it. What a terrible shadow to live with, for her and for her brother.
Didn’t you love the letter of reference from Lady Bella Taunton? You learned as much about Lady Bella as you did about Juliet. And let’s face it, dear Victoria’s taste was dreadfully heavy and stuffy.
The things I am learning! I did not know there were five Bronte sisters; I thought there was just the three. Nor did I know that all of them had ‘weak chests’ and died young. Furthermore, I had always heard that they adored, and supported, their brother Branwell, but never heard that he was a drunkard that they had to clean up after. Poor girls!
And Wilkie Collins! More scandal! “Did you know that Wilkie Collin maintained to separate households with two separate mistresses and two separate sets of children? The scheduling difficulties must have been shocking. No wonder he took laudanum.” Between the two households and the laudanum, he must have had a large income at his disposal!
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The Bronte sisters smothered Branwell. They overcompensated for the harshness of their puritanical father. Today we would call them "enablers". They were a sad family. Isolated, living in a desolate and remote location. No wonder they wrote, creating a world for themselves away from their drab existence.
Carolyn
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I have just read Lamb's essay and I hope someone can point out the humor in this piece. I found no point to it. In fact the horror of it brought to mind the brilliant essay by Jonathan Swift which deals with an even more horrible subject, but had at
the time, a sound political purpose for being popular. Swift's "A Modest Proposal" suggests that poor Irish people eat their own children or sell them to others so as not to be a burden but a benefit to the Public.
In a completely different matter I wish to bring up the personality of Adelaide Addison. She is the only character (so far) who seems to be made of cardboard and not human flesh. Did others of you also feel that her letters were much too one-sided and rather too stupid to be believable?
I wonder what the purpose of the authors was in presenting her in this way? Any ideas.
Jude
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Babi,
"Sorry, Bellemarie, but IMO these two were not suited to each other, and it would have been a tragedy if they had ignored the warning signals and gotten married anyway. "
I completely agree with you Babi. These two were not suited to each other, and the marriage would not have worked. My argument was, there are two sides to look at, and Juliet, repeatedly said, Rob was a very nice man, and he was in no way to blame, he was actually better off without her. I feel what Juliet was revealing about herself, is that she can be a bit much for someone to live with, she was not ready for marriage and very possibly was not truly in love with him. This is not being critical of Juliet, just an observation.
JudeS...Swift's "A Modest Proposal" suggests that poor Irish people eat their own children or sell them to others so as not to be a burden but a benefit to the Public.
EEEEEWWWWWWW...now I am disgusted!!! :o
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I think in every small community there is a person who sits in judgement on the rest of the Community. In small communities everyone knows everyone elses business. Adelaide Addison represents this sort of person.
Carolyn
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Yes, Jude, I was also reminded of Swift's essay. It was intended to call the attention of the English to the plight of the Irish in the many famines. However, Lamb's essay doesn't seem to have such a lofty purpose. It was mentioned that perhaps it was used here to emphasize "that war is hell, slaughter is evil, but humor is a way of coping with it". OK, perhaps that is our author's intent but it certainly wasn't Lamb's intent. He meant to be humorous. Nowadays many of us have expanded our sympathies beyond the human race and we don't find it so funny.
Adelaide Addison is good background noise. We always will have someone jumping up and down and saying we're all going to h__ in a handbasket.
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JoanR- I think we can each interpret Lamb's purpose in writing the "Dissertation upon the Roast Pig." There is so much there. The one thing we do know, Dawsey Adams is completely taken with Charles Lamb, his essays, his letters and his life. And Dawsey Adams, a pig farmer sees humor in this particular essay. Jude, I would think that Dawsey finds humor in the way the first pigs were roasted, burning down the house each time one wants to cook a pig.
Nancy, you've noted a parallel between the modest flowers that Dawsey sends to Juliet and Mark's extravagant bouquets. Is it worth noting that Mark (Markham?) is an American? We all seem to agree that Juliet and her fiancé were ill-suited for whatever reason. Evelyn says she is well rid of him. PatH reminds us that this is wartime London, whirlwind courtships, quick marriages. It's not as if she's known him for a long time. It's good that she realized her mistake in time, we all agree on that one.
You have to wonder what Adelaide Addison has against Elizabeth McKenna - and against the Guernsey literary society, Jude. She seems to look down her nose at Elizabeth because she is not a true Islander, the daughter of a housekeeper. Geee, Elizabeth isn't even on the island any more. Why Adelaide writing to Juliet? You know she's trouble just from the way she signs her letter - " Yours in Christian Consternation and Concern"
Let's look closely at Elizabeth's role in the founding of the book club...I love the names of the original members, don't you? Were they all down on the social ladder - is that why Adelaide fears they will give Guernsey a bad name if publicized in Juliet's article in the Times?
Nancy notes that Juliet likes the white lilacs Dawsey Adams sent her- "above all flowers" -- A hint of things to come?
Nancy, do you think that there may possibly be something developing between them? Really? Do the rest of you think they have anything in common? Aside from Charles Lamb, of course.
How many were in that original group? Mrs. Maugery, Dawsey Adams, Elizabeth ...Why do you think Mrs. Maugery invited this particular group to dine on her hidden pig?
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Why do you think Mrs. Maugery invited this particular group to dine on her hidden pig? ...................I wondered about that also, Joan. As I've explained the book to people, telling them how it got it's name, i have said "she invited ???" and then i tho't "are they neighbors? who were these people?" ........jean
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In a completely different matter I wish to bring up the personality of Adelaide Addison. She is the only character (so far) who seems to be made of cardboard and not human flesh. Did others of you also feel that her letters were much too one-sided and rather too stupid to be believable?
I wonder what the purpose of the authors was in presenting her in this way? Any ideas.
from Jude
I think Adelaide Addison was a product of her times and upbringing who belonged to that group that judged others by their ancestry and place in society. In addition, she was probably very prim and proper – the first sentence in her letter to Juliet reads “Forgive the presumption of a letter from a person unknown to you.” There’s probably a bit of sour grapes there too, with Miss Adelaide, as she goes on to say, “There are those of true culture and breeding . . . .. will take no part in this charade (even if invited)." – There’s the rub. It galls her that the housekeeper’s ddaughter and the pig farmer are part of a select group that doesn’t include her.
Jean, I think Amelia Maugery invited this particular group because they were fairly close neighbors, and as well, she said to Dawsey, “Come quickly, and bring a butcher knife,” knowing that he was no doubt the best one around for cutting up a pig.
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I just have to post this :
Today's (4th February) Times newspaper reported that Margaret Thatcher's daughter has been dropped from a BBC show after she refused to apologise for referring to a tennis player as a golliwog.
Carol Thatcher made the remark off-air in relation to a competitor in the Australian Open - saying that she thought his hair reminded her of the golliwog on the jam jar's of her childhood .
The BBC regards the remark as racist and wants an apology even though the remark was made off-air. Thatcher is not talking.
As Ginny would say, our discussion here is so au courant
I'll try a link to the Times but I have a habit of getting bumped off -
golliwog (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5651477.ece)
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The Times link doesn't seem to work - here's the address:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5651477.ece or just google for Times Newspaper
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Gumtree...
Today's (4th February) Times newspaper reported that Margaret Thatcher's daughter has been dropped from a BBC show after she refused to apologise for referring to a tennis player as a golliwog.
Carol Thatcher made the remark off-air in relation to a competitor in the Australian Open - saying that she thought his hair reminded her of the golliwog on the jam jar's of her childhood .
Gumtree...Wow! Can you imagine here we are discussing "gollywog", and this just happens. After reading the article I posted yesterday about the Black Irish-Gollywog, and how the gollywog could no longer be manufactured and was banned in the nursery schools due to the racist inference, I am a bit surprised Carol Thatcher would use this to compare the likeness of a tennis player. Even though it was in a private conversation off camera, there were others around who heard it, and because of her job they felt it inappropriate. I don't personally feel she meant it in any racial context, but awareness of sensitivity to different races and culture are on the rise here even in the United States, especially since we now have our first black president and a radio announcer was fired for saying a woman, black basketball player's hair was "nappy".
"The journalist daughter of Baroness Thatcher, the former Prime Minister, is understood to have refused a request from the BBC to offer an unconditional apology for her comment. "
Although, she did not intend any racial intent, I am a bit surprised at how she is not willing to give the apology and recognize and accept how others could be offended.
Thank you for the article Gumtree. And to think I had never heard of the word Gollywog, until Feb. 1st reading this book.
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JUDE, Ms Addison does seem somewhat one-dimensional, but I have known people like that. It may have been that I didn't know them well enough, but with people who act like that, who wants to become better acquainted?
Why did the author present her like that? Perhaps as a counterpoint to the basic warmheartedness of the other characters.
Ah, okay, Bellamarie. Point taken. As for Swift's "Modest Proposal", I assume he was being sarcastic, not sincere. Sarcasm was definitely his style.
On the subject of Mr. Markham, I note Julie's letter to Sophie……(I had to grin). ”Your questions regarding that gentleman are very delicate, very subtle, very much like being smacked in the head with a mallet.”
And, “The first rule of snooping is to come at it sideways.” Absolutely!
But really, why can’t she see that if she is ‘dreading’ spending an evening with him, she needs to run very fast in the other direction. But of course, it’s hard to be practical and realistic when you are being pursued by a wealthy, confident, handsome, glamorous male!
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The gollywog discussion is interesting. Did not know it derived from Gullah. Gullah is an interesting complicated language. It is mostly heard in the small islands off of South Carolina.. But when I was a newlywed back in the late 50's, we lived for two years in Columbia, SC. I was the bookkeeper in a entertainment complex.. Movies, bowling, pinball, etc. Several of our back stage workers spoke mostly gullah and it was a whole new experience for me to figure out how to translate what they wanted. This was a long time ago and they did not read or write either..I suspect that has disappeared with television being so prevalent.
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That’s a very interesting article, and thanks for picking up on that, Gumtree. As someone mentioned, we certainly are ‘au courant.’ The timing here is just unbelievable. If this news had surfaced a week ago would we have paid attention or even known about it. Obviously, as we have learned, it’s a racist term, and she shouldn’t have used it. Why not apologize and get it over with. But at the same time, why did someone feel the need to drag a word from private conversation and put it before the public? Watch your back, Carol Thatcher.
(I wonder if anyone plays that Debusssy piece anymore, Golliwog Cake Walk. How would they list it on the program?)
What are your thoughts about Sidney? Is he just a big brother friend? He certainly is important to Juliet and he doesn't appear to think highly of Mark Reynolds.
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Good eye, Gum! I'm not sure our US papers picked up on the controversy yet.
Pedln, that's an interesting question. I'm willing to bet the title of the piece would appear in programs when the work is played.
Perhaps it is the context in which the term is used that is objectionable. Carol Thatcher, as I understand it, was referring to the black French tennis player, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga after he lost his match. He looked stunned...and in Thatcher's words to her friend, he stood on the court - like a golliwog. She didn't say it on air...she said it privately. Her agent says the comment was leaked by a staffer at BBC who had a grudge against her.
Here's an interesting site - maybe you can hear it - at least see the photo of Debussy himself, playing the Golliwog Cake walk in 1913 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMrdhgWR9Zk)
Okay, we have two questions on the table. Do you think Sydney has romantic interest in Juliet? I don't think she looks at him as anything other than a big brother. I don't think she knows what to make of Mark. But what about Sydney - does his jealousy reveal deeper feelings for Juliet?
And then - how does Jean explain to her friends how the literary society came into being - how did that particular group get invited to Mrs. Maugery's for the pig roast? It's logical why Adam Dawsey was invited - he know how to slaughter the pig. But the others, were they all friends of hers? I think I have to go back and reread that letter...
Oh, wait - a third question. How on earth did it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/glitpotpeelpie2.jpg) |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Imagine a book club in a place where there is not a single book store! This is exactly what Mary Ann Shaffer and her niece, Annie Barrows have done as they draw us into the engaging relationship betweeen Juliet Aston and the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. Perhaps their story explains the popularity of book clubs everywhere.
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Topics for Discussion during Week 1
1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work?
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society?
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
5. What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society? What do your own choices reveal about you?
6. What did you learn about the German occupation of Guernsey in these pages? How do you think the Islanders managed to survive the occupaton for five years?
7. "Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones." Do you agree with Isola? Will you share your favorite references to books and reading in these pages?
8. What did you find especially meaningful in this first section; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941. (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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Hey Joan,
You stole my thunder re: The Golliwog's Cake Walk. Just as I was listening to Debussy play his piece you were writing about it.
Two minds but with a single thought. Anyhow I will add that the piece is not outmoded . If you go to Google and put in the name you will find many versions of the piece. The first one ,by Barbara Tomaskova, had more than 25,000 downloads.
I actually listened to four different pianists playing the piece and my favorite was hearing Rachmaninoff playing. He put something into it that made me really sit up and take notice.
Thanks to those of you who tried to convince me that the Lamb essay was funny. I guess if I had never read anything else , like some of the folk in the Novel, I might find it funny but it really is bizarre. Having to burn down a house to roast a pig. No chuckle emerges from me.
Jude
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I love used book stores. We had a good one near where I lived in Maryland. The family that owned it gave jobs to retired Seniors who loved books, and you could have great conversations with them on the way out. I knew every used bookstore in the area, and most of the propriators.
Practically the first thing I did when I movedto california is look for used bookstores in the suburb where I live. So far I haven't found one that's wheelchair accessible. I order used books online. Whenever Powells has it, I order from them. That's a great used bookstore in Portland, Oregon.
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Do you think Sidney has romantic interest in Juliet?
pg. 22... 26th January, 1946, Sidney says about Markham, "he's here to beguile England's finest authors with visions of plenty and prosperiety in America. I didn't know his technique included roses and camellias, but I'm not surprised. He's always had more than his fair share of what we call cheek and Americans call can-do spirit. Just wait til you see him__he's been the undoing of stronger women than you, including my secretary." He goes on to say.."He's after you, Juliet, no doubt about it. Shall I challenge him to a duel? He would undoubtedly kill me, so I'd rather not. My dear, I can't promise you plenty or prosperiety or even butter, but you do know that you're S & S'___especially Stark's__most beloved author, don't you?'
As of March 1st, where we stop off reading, there has been no correspondence from Sidney. Although, Juliet first assumes he is upset about Reynolds, she then suggests he is off helping a drunken friend. Is Sidney okay, is my question? I do hope nothing has happened to him. Even if he was upset about Markham, I can't see him going this long not answering Juliet's letters. I am not certain if he has romantic feelings for Juliet, but he certainly does not want her to be charmed by Reynolds and leave his publishing house, or get hurt and disillusioned by him. They have been friends forever, so I suppose he is more concerned about Juliet being swept off her feet by a smooth talking, handsome American. Afterall, the flowers, compliments of her writing, dancing and fine restraunts seem to be working.
How did that particular group get invited to Mrs. Maugery's for the pig roast?
pg. 28..Dawsey says, " She had a pig, a hidden pig, and she invited me to join in the feast with her and her friends."
pg.48.. Amelia writes to Juliet and says, "Dawsey has told you that the Society was invented as a ruse to keep the Germans from arresting my dinner guests: Dawsey, Isola, Eben, Ramsey, John Booker, Will Thisbee, and our dear Elizabeth McKenna, who manufactured the story on the spot, bless her quick wits and silver tongue." Later she goes on to explain in order for the Society to appear truthful to the Commandent, "Then we strolled from house to house__looking as carefree and casual as we could__in order to alert the others, to come that evening and chose a book to read." She says, Dawsey had been her neighbor for 30 years and had never spoken to him, Isola and Eben was a dear friend, Will Thisbee was only an acquaintance and John Booker was nearly a stranger, for he had just arrived when the Germans came. It was Elizabeth we had in common. Without her urging we would have never have thougt to invite them to share my pic and the GLPPPS would never have drawn a breath."
How on earth did it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?
From Amelia's description of Elizabeth, she had, "quick wit and a silver tongue"
I am hoping to hear more from Elizabeth, herself in the coming pages. Maybe she can help us know more, as to how she thought to say a literary group.
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Jude, I just had to go back and listen to Rachmaninoff - you're right! He plays Debussy's Golliwog Cakewalk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvJ35-zZa-I&feature=related) even better than Debussy himself! Maybe it was a better recording...
JoanK - do you know if that used bookstore is still in operation? What a great idea to hire Seniors to work there! I got to thinking how much fun it would be if we all lived in the same town - talking at our f2f bookclub meeting and deciding to open such a bookstore ourselves! Steph has experience - she could get us organized. But how to pay the rent?
It's fun to think about though, isn't it?
Thanks for picking up the questions from the table, Bellamarie! I'd forgotten that Sidney suggested the duel with Markham Reynolds. (What sort of a name is that?) I'd say if Sidney has a thing for Juliet, she is totally unaware of it. I remember thinking at the start that he was a softy of a boss. Then to discover that she has been best friends with his family, his sister, since she was a kid in boarding school. No wonder they are close friends - relaxed and easy with one another. But I think Juliet has a different idea of what romance is supposed to be.
I love the way the author(s) are revealing bits and pieces through the letters of so many different characters, don't you? You just know that some little detail is going to be further explained in future letters. I've learned to patiently accept that.
I can understand Mrs. Maugery inviting Adam Dawsey to the pig roast - he was a pig farmer, he'd slaughter her pig. Except she had never spoken to him before this night. But the other guests - her "friends" seemed an unlikely group to invite to the party too. Thanks for bringing us the passage where we learn that they all had Elizabeth in common. Elizabeth is quite the mover on the Island, isn't she? Shall we keep a tally?
It was Elizabeth who helped Mrs. Maugery put the party together, it was Elizabeth who persuaded the guests to venture out after curfew and then it was Elizabeth who quickly, on the spur of the moment, thought of the unlikely excuse for being out so late - a literary society. And the German soldiers believed her - believed they were discussing Elizabeth and her German Garden. I know this is fiction, though I keep forgetting, but what language do the Guernsians speak? Or did the German soldiers speak English?
I had assumed that Mrs. Maugery was the leader of the group. She's the one who must approve Juliet's request to interview the literary society for the Times article. But maybe the real leader was Elizabeth - before she left Guernsey. Why did Mrs. Maugery hestitate to approve of the interview? Did she not want publicity?
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Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
pg. 38 Mrs. Maugery says, "I realize that our name, the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society, is an unusual one and could easily be subjected to ridicule. Would you assure me you will not be tempted to do so? The Society members are very dear to me, and I do not wish them to be perceived as objects of fun by your readers."
Since Mrs. Maugery states a friend of hers had sent her a copy of Izzy Bickerstaff Goes to War, and while she found the book informative as it was entertaining and amusing, she was concerned about "the amusing tone." Amelia did not want Juliet to use their Society for fodder to her readers.
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
I believe the references from Bella Taunton and Rev. Simon Simples is what convinced Amelia to trust Juliet. Although, Juliet was a tad offended by her suspicions, she understood, and complied to honor her request to prove her worthiness. I feel this allowed Amelia to trust Juliet with their Society. The fact that both references said Juliet is an honest person, reassured Amelia that she could trust Juliet. I also think becaue Dawsey was very much trusting, and showed how he was willing to ask the Society for Juliet, made an impression on Amelia. She menions, "Dawsey has never asked for anything for himself."
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"How on earth did it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?"
JOANP, perhaps a book club was the most innocent, disarming reason she could think of for a group of people to be assembling in the evening. After all, what could be more harmless than people discussing a book?
I got a message from my library what they have a copy of Seneca's Essays and letters waiting for me. I'll pick it up this morning. While waiting for the book, I looked up Seneca in Bartlett's Quotations, and guess what?! Shakespeare must have read Seneca. The first quote I read was "What fools these mortals be!"
It was John Booker who introduced Seneca. After reading what John had to say about the essays of Seneca, I found I want to read them myself. “He was a Roman philosopher who wrote leters to imaginary friends telling them how to behave for the rest of their lives. Maybe that sounds dull, but the letters aren’t--they’re witty.”
And what to you think of this remark?: “I think you learn more if you’re laughing at the same time.” I need to think about that a while.
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JoanP, thanks for the link to the Cake Walk. It took a while, but I finally heard it in entirety. Will delay the Rachmaninoff until I get broadband. Unfortunately, dial-up is slowly becoming the bane of my existence.
Bunting’s Model Occupation finally arrived. About language – surprisingly, in 1939,1940, many of the rural residents spoke Norman French, although this was slowly changing as more English speakers moved in. Bunting points out that many of the rural residents had never left their parish, some had been no farther than St. Peter Port. For our novel, we would assume they all spoke English.
When the Germans arrived, hoping to make all islanders true members of Europe’s Third Reich, it was their plan that everyone would learn German. They ordered 500 copies of ‘Living German’ to be printed and set up voluntary classes for both children and adults. In 1942, they made German compulsory for all schoolchildren aged 10 and older. In 1943 they required four periods of 40 minutes duration per week – this at a time when schools were reducing their hours due to fuel shortages.
As you read Eben’s letter dated Feb. 28 you probably noted h is comments about the Germans shooting at lifeboats and his references to the island being left undefended. Bunting also speaks of that.
Re: Elizabeth, the common link. This makes sense. She had more or less been given the run of the island (or the parish, anyway) since she was a child. (Miss A. Addison gives the impression that she was wild, harum scarum.) My impression of that is that as a child she took interest in everything and everyone around her. It does not surprise me at all that she was acquainted with everyone in St. Martin parish, even if they did not know one another well.
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Love reading all about the book.. NOw if UPS would just get it to me.. Sigh
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Steph, Hang in there, I am sure you will receive your book before long. I have a habit of using direct quotes when answering questions or making points, so I hope this is helping you follow along.
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JoanP...
But maybe the real leader was Elizabeth - before she left Guernsey.
Seems our Elizabeth had a colorful life. Here is a list of some of the things I have conjectured from these people.
Elizabeth is:
From Amelia:
Quick wit and silver tongue.
Manufactured the story of the Literary group.(Dawsey and Amelia)
A person of action. pg. 49. "Elizabeth appeared in my kitchen and asked, "How many books have you got?" "After I am done at the Commandment's Office, we'll go to Foxs' Bookshop and buy them out."
From Dawsey:
Risk taker
Decison maker, Elizabeth decided not to stay at Amelia's, so they went out after curfew.
Isn't tall.
Had book knowledge, and said a poem. "Is it so small a thing to have enjoyed the sun, to have lived light in the spring, to have loved, to have thought, to have done, to have advanced true friends?"
Stood right up to the soldiers.
Made up lies and "the soldier smilled back at her. Elizabeth is like that."
From Isola:
"my dear friend Elizabeth McKenna."
Is in a prison in France. pg.53
Had a four yr. old daughter Kit McKenna (no mention of a husband)
Arrested by the Germans for hiding a poor slave worker from Poland.
From Adelaide:
Not an islander.
"Despite her fine airs, she is merely a jumped-up-servant from the London home of Sir Ambrose Ivers, R.A. (Royal Academy)."
Daughter of a housekeeper.
Mother died when she was 14 yrs. old
Sir Amrose kept her after her mother died. He proposed her for a scholarship to the Slade School of Fine Art.
Sinful and lack of humility, wild thing, roaming unkempt about the island, no household chores, no gloves, no shoes, no stockings. Going out on fishing boats with rude men. Spying on decent people through her telescope. Decay of standards.
"She is not the selfless heroine that some people seem to think."
Wow! I can't wait to see when and if Elizabeth returns from prison. It is certain a character of this magnitude must return. Indeed without her the GLAPPPS would never have came about.
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Thanks, Pedln, for the information on the language. I knew that the older Guernsey folk spoke a patois of French and English but had no idea of the enforced German during the occupation.
I was curious about Seneca so looked him up. He was a tutor to Nero (!!) and then later after Nero ascended to rule, he became the emperor’s political advisor but after about 8 years, when Nero became increasingly tyrannical and unstable, he retired and devoted himself to his philosophical works.
I found his Epistles on line and something suitable to our time for sure!
In “On Discursiveness in Reading” . He says,”It is not the man who has too little ,but the man who has too much, that is poor” The proper limit to wealth is first to have what is necessary and, second, to have what is enough.
Let’s tell that to the Wall Street bankers!
Have 2 more parts of " Island at War" to watch. There are parts of it that seem to be taken from "The Book of Ebenezer..." or could they both be taken from history? Anyone know?
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Question 5-Part 2: How did the Islanders manage to survive the occupation for five years?
Like other conquered countries in Europe the Islanders learned to survive on less and less. Possibly the title of the book points to the fact that they even designed a dessert out of potatoes when nothing else was available.
By 1945 the German soldiers were starving too. Even the German soldiers in Germany were starving (see Gunter Grass's Autobiography).
However the Guernseyans were lucky that they didn't have to watch their children die of starvation or from lack of medicine. The children had been evacuated to England. Also many of the young men had joined the British Army. Therefore mostly women and older men bore the brunt of the occupation. They used their wits to stay alive. Although life was miserable we don't hear of many folks dying of hunger. In fact the situation helped some folks to fill their souls with books and new idea in order to forget their aching bellies.
To see how people survive in even worse circumstances see the movie "Defiance". It is a true story of four Jewish brothers who managed to save 1,200 other people while hiding out from the Nazis and living in the freezing forests of Bielo-Russia from1940-1945.
Jude
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Jude, I think the fact that these Islanders stuck together, worked together to get through the occupation was important, don't you?
How else do you think they got through impossibly tough times?
JoanR, are you getting that message from Islands at War?
Do you see similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth? Hadn't we come to think of Juliet as the protagonist in the novel? Maybe it's Elizabeth. Will she return to the story, will Juliet come to the islands to take her place, perhaps? (Don't tell if you've read ahead, as some of us have not.)
I 'm not surprised that a woman like Adelaide disapproved of the high-spirited, Elizabeth. As a child she had the run of the island...barelegged, barefoot, answering to no one. And now she has a child, with no father on the scene, herself in France in prison.
Bellamarie, she was resourceful, wasn't she? I had forgotten that it was Elizabeth who went to Mr. Fox's book shop and cleared the shelves to supply books for the literary society. Her selections turned out to be good choices.
I suppose a book club is as good an excuse as any to explain why this disparate group is out together after curfew, Babi. Do you believe that Elizabeth and her German Garden is a real book title - or one that she made up on the spur of the moment?
Goodness - look what I just found -
Elizabeth and her German Garden (http://www.online-literature.com/elizabeth-arnim/)
Pedln, Model Occupation should prove invaluable to us. So, the rural inhabitants of Guernsey spoke Norman French - aren't these folks rural? Or do those who live near the coast, near St. Peter Port speak English? French or English, how do they communicate with the Germans. Even if the kids were required to learn German, can you see Elizabeth McKenna or Dawsey Adams sitting in German classes? Maybe they did - and they just didn't write about them in their letters. Or do you think the Germans spoke English?
JoanR - I found this source of Seneca's letters - the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html) - I'm definitely interested in him.
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JOANP: Ann has asked me to inform you that she is having computer problems. She hopes to have her computer up and running again by this coming Monday.
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4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?
She is suspicious of Juliet’s motive at first. She does not want Juliet’s article to demean the Society on account of the strange name of the Literary society. It had become a serious discussion group by the time Juliet had contacted her.
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
She finally approved of the Societies participation in Juliet’s article after she receives the two references. One of which was brutally honest. The brutally honest reference proved to Mrs Maugery that Juliet has been very open with her. She will represent the society in an ethical way.
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Babi wrote
I looked up Seneca in Bartlett's Quotations, and guess what?! Shakespeare must have read Seneca
Indeed he did, Babi, Seneca's plays were translated into English around 1560-70 and published as Tenne Tragedies which fundamentally are a retelling of the great Greek tragedies. His work had a huge and widespread influence upon the Elizabethan mind and especially the Elizabethan form of tragedy.-
Seneca style and use of language influenced Elizabethan diction because the poets tried to emulate his rather grand style which in turn led the way to the development of the blank verse of Shakespeare (its highest point). It was a style which became in itself Elizabethan.
An important legacy from Seneca lies in the structure of his plays which were divided into the 5 acts ( Exposition - Anticipation - Confrontation - Partial Execution - Completion) which nowadays we find so common as part of the basic pattern of many plays from the Elizabethan period.
It is many years since I read Seneca but still I remember this ditty associated with him - can't recall the author....
Sophocles read Aeschylus,
Euripides read Sophocles,
Seneca read Euripides,
Shakespeare read Seneca,
Everyone else read Shakespeare
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JoanP You got me with the link to Elizabeth and her German Garden. I had of course known of Elizabeth van Arnim as a writer but only through her relationship to Katherine Mansfield - Can't recall reading anything by her and the title of her book didn't ring any bells.
Eizabeth Van Arnim's mother was a Lassetter which is a name famous here through the prospector of that name and his legendary lost reef of gold. Lassetters Lost Reef was /is believed to be a fabulous gold deposit located somewhere in the desert near the MacDonnell Ranges in Central Australia. Men have lost their lives searching for it. It still fascinates those susceptible to its lure.
So, now I'm wondering how the Elizabeth character in our book knew about Elizabeth and her German Garden so well that the title just popped into her head when she was in a tight corner. Was the book so popular that everyone had read it or knew of it? Would she have read it as the daughter of a servant working in the big house? Who was Elizabeth's father ? H'mmm
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I wondered if Elizabeth had just made up the name and it was a coincidence!
My grandaughters new school (An all girl Roman Catholic College for ages 11-18) offers the choice of Classics in the Senior School. I am glad that when the time comes she will have that choice. Not many schools today offer Classical studies.
Carolyn
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JoanP,
Do you believe that Elizabeth and her German Garden is a real book title - or one that she made up on the spur of the moment?
Goodness - look what I just found -
Elizabeth and her German Garden
JoanP, what a great find!
Well, now this sheds a whole new light on things. Now that we know this is a real book, not one made up out of nowhere, it certainly tells us more about Elizabeth. Its a bit ironic how Mary Anne Shaffer, has used the name Elizabeth, and then has her mention this particular book, which was written by, Elizabeth von Arnim. Strangely enough, for the past couple of days, I have been noticing how Mary Anne has taken so many quotes from famous writers, and used in this book. Now, here she has taken a true writer and made her a character. Or at least it appears so.
JoanP,Do you see similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth? Hadn't we come to think of Juliet as the protagonist in the novel? Maybe it's Elizabeth. Will she return to the story, will Juliet come to the islands to take her place, perhaps? (Don't tell if you've read ahead, as some of us have not.)
I'm coming up with a theory, and shall see where it takes me.
I can barely wait, to move on to our next reading assignment. It took great restraint not to peek today. This just popped into my head....hmmm what do I make of it?
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 - 1832)
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Oh dear, one last thought before I retire for the night. After Dawsey speaks of Elizabeth making up the story and mentioning the book's title, he says, "the soldier smiled back at her. Elizabeth is like that."
Now, I ask, was it Elizabeth he was smiling about or the title she chose?
JoanP, Was the book so popular that everyone had read it or knew of it?
I'm sensing the book was popular to those interested in literature. pg. 50 "The Commandment announced that he too,was a lover of literature__might he, with a few like_minded officers, sometimes attend meetings?"
I think Elizabeth chose that title, knowing it was witty, and about the Germans. She was indeed brave standing up to the soldiers.
"Arnim’s husband had increasing debts and was eventually sent to prison for fraud. This was when she created her pen name `Elizabeth' and launched her career as a writer by anonymously publishing her semi-autobiographical, brooding yet satirical Elizabeth and her German Garden. (1898) It would be such a success as to be reprinted twenty times in it's first year. A bitter-sweet memoir and companion to it was The Solitary Summer, (1899) and The Benefactress (1902) was also semi-autobiographical. Other titles dealing with feminist protest and witty observations of life in provincial Germany to follow were The Princess Priscilla's Fortnight, (1905) Fraulein Schmidt and Mr Anstruther. (1907) In 1908 Arnim left Nassenheide to return to London. She was all too aware of the lack of feminine power in a male-dominated world, and did not lack for sympathy of human frailty. She would sign her next twenty or so books simply as written "By the author of Elizabeth and Her German Garden" and later simply "By Elizabeth".
JoanP, you asked about similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth. (mind you I am now seeing our Elizabeth as the true writer Elizabeth von Arnim) Seems they both share the talent of writing satirical, and witty observations of life in provincial Germany, both are witty, and both do not fear the power or postion, with and in, a man's company or work position. And, both are "all too aware of the lack of feminine power in a male-dominated world, and did not lack for sympathy of human frailty."
Good night all...I am up way past my bedtime. I think I just bumped into our friend, Gumtree, the toothfairy. ;)
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Bellamarie - Yes, I thought that was you flitting past me - sleep tight.
I agree there is so much to conjecture about with Elizabeth the character and Elizabeth von Arnim. But I don't think we can draw any conclusion as yet.
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There was a time when I became immersed in the whole tragic saga around the Brontes and was fascinated with the enigma of their collective talents.
I read everything I could lay my hand upon that had any connection with them- the novels, the poetry, the juvenilia, the biographies, criticism, the lot. I acquired not only a library of their works and related matter but a collection of ephemera dealing with just about every aspect one could imagine from pamphlets about their home at the Parsonage, and the buildings used in their novels, the people who were the likely basis for some of the characters, booklets on the Haworth environs, maps, postage stamps etc- most of it was given to me by friends who knew of my interest. However I restrained myself and did not join the Bronte Society though I have read much of the Society's transactions. At the time I could have written a book about the Brontes though it never entered my mind to do so.
Why I'm telling you all this is that, perhaps because she is so often overlooked, it was Anne Bronte who really got to me. So you can imagine my absolute delight when I read that our Juliet had written a book about my favourite Bronte and that Isola Pribby was also a fan with decided ideas about the family. In Isola's letter to Juliet 19th Feb.
she wrote:
Their dad was a selfish thing, wasn't he? He paid the girls no attention at all - always sitting in his study, shouting for his shawl. He never got up to wait on hisself, did he?
I would have agreed with that until my reading revealed that though eccentric in behaviour he was vigorous in his parish duties. He had loved his wife and loved his daughters but didn't know how to handle them or to show them his love.
Patrick B positively doted on his son, Branwell and had high expectations of him. Too high, perhaps. Sadly, Branwell was wastrel who squandered every opportunity. He had some talent as a writer and may have been successful as portrait artist but would not (or could not) complete his training. After his dismissal as a tutor he returned home and sank into an alcohol and opium induced decline.
Charlotte and Anne pandered to him but Emily had more sense and described him as 'a helpless person' though she did her fair share of looking after him. One feels for Patrick Bronte as time and again he put his drunken and doped son to bed and then paid his debts.
Anne's fine novel The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is perhaps the most neglected and underrated novel of the period. In it she explores the effect a man's dissipation can have on family members. It has a reality about it not often seen in novels of the period and of course she was using Branwell's dissipation and decline as her model. Anne's writing is not of the calibre of Emily's Wuthering Heightsbut then what is? but it is a worthwhile read and has relevance today when drug abuse is so widespread in society.
As everyone knows, the whole family died tragically and except for Patrick they all died young - he must have had an iron constitution as he lived in that environment until he was 84.
At the time Haworth was the unhealthiest place in all England and had the highest mortality rate. The water was often contaminated from the churchyard and refuse and excrement was piled up outside homes as a matter of course. - Anne was reputed to have had a romantic attachment to William Weightman who was her father's curate...sadly Willy died of cholera contracted while on parish duties - he was 25
This post is getting away from me....sorry. I wanted to say that as the book offers so many references to literature we could be here discussing it forever -what have we all to say about Juliet's letter to Markham Reynolds of 4th Feb. where she menaces the delivery boy with Proust's Remembrance of Things Past . A month won't be long enough but I know it will have to do.
There are about a zillion websites about the Brontes -
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The Brontes have always interested me and when we have gone to England, I think about visiting the area where they lived. Never done it yet, but it is on my list. Two years ago, we went to Stratford and that area.. It has been totally devoted to Shakespeare now, but you can see the village underneath the tourist stuff.
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JOANR, despite what Seneca wrote about wealth, he himself accumulated wealth until he was one of the richest men of the times. I got my copy of Seneca yesterday, and find that the 'Introduction' covers about a half-dozen topics and runs to, if I remember correctly, at least 27 pages.
According to the scholarly translator, Seneca did not always practice what he preached, but his writing did, as others noted, greatly influence the subsequent development of literature.
JUDE, I want to see "Defiance". I have been seeing some previews advertised, and they have really caught my interest.
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Ok, gals - tell me on what page is the reference to Elizabeth's Garden. Must have missed that. Thanks. I have hard cover book from lib.
And I read the Seneca about time. Just love this line. : hold every hour in your grasp. That's so true as we know!
~Marj
(http://www.millan.net/minimations/toolminis/lovebugs3.gif) Millan.net
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I have the hard cover book also, Marj, and the first mention is on pg. 29 Dawsey's letter to Juliet, 31st January 1946. He is telling how Elizabeth stepped up to the soldier making up lies, and goes on to say she said, "How we had been attending a meeting of the Guernsey Literary Society, and the evening's discussion of Elizabeth and Her German Garden had been so delightful that we has all lost track of time."
Gumtree,I agree there is so much to conjecture about with Elizabeth the character and Elizabeth von Arnim. But I don't think we can draw any conclusion as yet.
Yes, Gumtree,I agree, I would not allow myself to draw any conclusive thoughts at this point, considering how little we have read, and how much we have left to read, yet, in these pages we have found oh so much.
I feel this book is like a huge puzzle, and we are scrambling about the pages, searching the internet, recalling from the memories of our past readings etc., all in search of fitting each little piece together, to give us the complete picture of the puzzle. I am simply in awe, of the knowledge Mary Anne Shaffer had, in order to write such a book, that includes so many authors and quotes. Ordinary readers, without the assistance of book club discussions, and very brilliant people such as the ones here in this discussion, would be passing up such wonderful pieces of past artistic works all mentioned in this book.
You all are amazing me with your knowledge, and are inspiring me to want to read and learn so much more of these great authors. I feel like a young chick popping from my shell, to find all you wonderfully informed, mature, experienced classical mother hens out here, sharing your knowledge, and I can only feel excitement of acquiring even a bit of what you all already know. I'm on my way to read some of the Bronte' sisters writing online. Gumtree, has truly piqued my interest.
Marj, I totally love your little animated pic. ;)
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H'm Bellamarie ;) I'm up late now and on my way to bed....ships that pass in the night - enjoy the Brontes
Elizabeth and Her German Garden- was republished by Virago Modern Classics in 1985. A couple of my local libraries have several of her books including 'German Garden' so I'll check them out soon...
I've read a few pages online (Gutenberg Project) and it's delightful so far...here's the link if it works...
Elizabeth's German Garden (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1327)
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Wonderful thoughts about our Elizabeth McKenna here. Thank you, Bellamarie, for that great summary of the other characters thoughts about her. That really does give a good picture of her.
Who would have thought that Elizabeth and her Secret Garden was a real book by a rea author. If we had known Elizabeth a little better we would never have doubted. She had been well-educated, Sir Ambrose saw to that. And she was well-acquainted with Fox’s Bookstore, so she most likely had read deeply and widely, like many of you here.
She may even had spoken German, though my guess is the the upper-lever German officers were also well-educated and probably spoke English. (They do in Island at War. I think I’m where you are JoanR, two more episodes to go.)
Babi, JoanR, and Gum -- good comments about Seneca. They’ve made me want to learn more about him too. Great pick-up on his link to Shakespeare. It’s a good thing his letters about how to behave were to imaginary friends. What would his true friends have thought. And riches are for whom? Love the ditty.
Carolyn, you’re so right. Mrs. Maugery did not want her dear friends to be subject to ridicule.
Jude, yes, the islanders used their wits to stay alive and avoid starvtion. (BTW, I’ve got Defiance on my Netflix queuer, thanks). In one of the letters either Dawsey or Eben says that the Germans kept careful count of pigs, etc. because they did not want local food and livestock to fall into the hands of the black market. And according to Model Occupation, there was a thriving black market, brought about by both islanders and Germans. This from an unpublished diary of a Guernsey schoolteacher:
3 April, 1942: Crime is growing enormously. Everyone pinches or does a bit of quiet balck market; no one is honest, not even the clergy, one of whom remarked ingenuously, ‘It wil be nice when the war is over, then we shall be able to lead Christian lives again.’
This, from an policeman policeman who felt his job prohibited his using the black market:
I let the children have anything extra that was going. I suffered terribly from hunger. . . . I dropped from 15 stone to 10 stone. We put boiled minced limpets on bread – the bread ws made from oatmeal and potato. We were invited then to the house of a shopkeeper for supper; we stocked up on boiled swedes (a root vegetable) so we wouldn’t eat too much there. But they had nearly everything you could imagine – brandy, whiskey, jelly, our stomachs just couldn’t cope
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Gumtree, I just saw your link to Elizabeth and her German Garden. It works just fine, even for old dial-up.
Boy, that Elilzabeth MeKenna was one sharp cookie!
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Wow! That Elizabeth Von Arnim was quite a woman. I couldn't stop reading about her. It turns out I have seen a movie made of one of her novels-"Enchanted April"-about four British ladies who go for a vacation in Italy.
Now to the juicy parts.. After her "wrathful and penniless" German husband died Elizabeth (who had five children) had a threeyear affair with H.G.Wells. She left him to marry Bertram Russel's older brother and so became Countess Russel. After two years she divorced him and wrote a scathing book about him called "Vera". (Some say it's her masterpiece). Her next three year affair was with a man called Alexander Stuart Fere. This lasted a few years and prompted three more novels.
Finally she wrote a book about the most constant of her lovers_"All the Dogs of my Life".
These fascinating asides come not from reading the book but from this great discussion to which everyone adds nuggets. By the end we will have a huge pile of these nuggets which would never have been if I had simply read the book on my own, without everyone's input. I'm really glad to be part of this discussion.
Jude
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JudeS, Wherever did you find this info? I have read numerous sites on her biography and have yet to read this info. Could you post your link please?
Gumtree, Well, I have spent a good part of my day off, in my pjs, reading as much as possible on the Bront' sisters. Interestingly, the father changed his name from Bronty to Bronte' because he thought it had a better sound. I must say, I have found myself liking Anne's work, a bit more than the other two. She does have a sweet innoncence in her poems.
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"We read books, we talked books, argued over books and became dearer and dearer to one another." Amelia Maugery
I just loved this - and feel that same thing is happening to us in this discussion. It isn't at all surprising that Mrs. Maugery would not want her dear friends to be the subject of mockery in Juliet's article.
Does she understand that the story of the founding and the continuation of the literary society, would not, by itself bring mockery, at least puzzled smiles to the readers of the Times - but the name of the society itself? How did the society get its name? I know Will Thisbee brought his potato peel pie to the meetings, but why put it in the title? Do you think this will be revealed in future letters? What did you think of his recipe? I thought it was much like the one I made a couple of weeks ago.
The focus of the article was supposed to be on books and reading and how they sustained the readers during the occupation. Another reason I think that Mrs. M. decided to go ahead with the interviews - when she read the letter from the Fire Warden, Bella Taunton, condemning Juliet for running into the burning Library to save books, she realized that Juliet was a real booklover, truly interested in the article she was writing.
Jude, yesterday you wrote of the ways the inhabitants of Guernsey coped with the hard times during the occupation. Mrs. Maubery writes of another way the members of the literary society coped, when she writes of the books and reading that kept spirits up.
"Evenings together became bright, lively times, we could almost forget, now and then, the darkness outside receded."
Isola Pribby writes to Juliet that "reading perked up spirits during the occupation" except for the time that Elizabeth was sent to prison.
Gum, you write that a month doesn't seem to be enough time to consider the many references to other works - I was thinking we hardly have enough time to consider the contents of the letters we are focusing on this week! Let's hope that the letters will continue to shed light on these same works in the coming three weeks. And while we ask you not go ahead into future letters, know that we can always go back and refer to whatever we want in earlier letters, okay?
Ella, thank you the message from Ann. I know she has an interest in Anne Bronte...Steph too. We hope you will both be with us, book in hand, on Monday.(I hope to read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall before this discussion is over.)
It is Isola Pribby who adores the " passionate" encounters in Anne Bronte's work - "though she never had one of her own". I'm not sure what role Isola plays in the group. She is a dear friend and neighbor of Amelia Maugery - and as funny and lovable as can be. She is said to be the "Sergeant-at-Arms" in the group. Do you think that means she is the moderator?
Do you think Isola likes to read about passion she has never experienced herself (just as Anne Bronte wrote about passion she never knew?)
Hmmm...I'm thinking about this in connection with this question -
What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society? What do your own choices reveal about you?
Maybe this is too personal a question?
The subject of Elizabeth and her German Garden continues to fascinate. What is the parallel (if any) to Elizabeth McKenna. I did read in the link to Elizabeth and her German Garden that Eliz. von Arnim wrote 27 books in which she signed as " the author of Elizabeth and her German Garden." It is possible then that the German soldiers were familiar with this author.
Pedln - thanks for the continued input from Buntings, Model Occupation. The occupation of Guernsey was intended to be something to emulate. It makes sense they placed educated soldiers -who could speak English, to mingle with the inhabitants.
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The Bronte children compensated with their imaginations
for what must have been pretty dreary surroundings. They invented imaginary kingdoms: "Angria" for Charlotte and Branwell and "Gondal" for Emily and Ann. For these, they drew maps, wrote stories and illustrations. There was an exhibit some years ago at the Morgan Library in NY which I was able to go to. I just stood there, looking at the little tiny books they made and I just couldn't help but get a little teary thinking of those wonderful talented children and their hard lives.
This discussion keeps leading me off in so many directions that I do hope I won't lose sight of our Juliet!! As it is, I've spent a few hours tracking down books by Elizabeth von Arnim whilst the debris of the house increaseth apace - and my Latin homework should be started!! But I love what we're doing!
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Oh for heavens sakes! Enchanted April! That name rings a bell, and there it is in a little paperback, sitting on the shelf – been there for years, unread. Thank you, Jude. Until you mentioned it I hadn’t given that book a thought, I’ve no idea how I happened to come by it. Elizabeth von Arnim was totally unknown to me until yesterday. And as Jude said, she’s quite a woman. She’s certainly had an interesting life, and according to the link Joan gave us, she also moved to Canada and picked up another name.
JoanR, I don’t think you’ll lose sight of our Juliet. Aren’t we doing just what one of our Guernsey friends (who?) said – letting one little piece of our reading lead us into another, and another.
JoanP, I think adding Potato Peel Pie to its title makes the Guernsey Literary Society so much more their very own. And perhaps Elizabeth, full of courage, and having gone this far, just added a touch of the absurd.
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Aha... the book just arrived and I will diligently read away over the weekend..
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Loving all your comments and links .............
Someone commented about how the Germans and the Islanders could have communicated and a follow-up comment was that the German officers probably knew English..................that it was true in the movie that you are watching..............that may be true, but it is more likely that they spoke French - the country next-door, but also French was the language of diplomacy at the time and considered the "international" language, at least that is my understanding. All of the European countries had come out of the nineteenth century as unified countries w/ boundaries as we more less know them today - excluding the changes after WWI and WWII. But they also had developed during the late 19th century very strong nationalism in each country - each of the major countries felt, and taught, that they had the most important culture - literature, music, art, etc. - and the best history, politics and military and therefore should be the most important country in Europe - a most important element in the lead-up to WWI, which lead to WWII. Even so, France had a lingering sophisticated reputation from previous centuries when it really was THE place to go for education and culture, and as i said French was the language that carried people's communication when there were diverse languages in a room..........................jean
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Bellamarie,
You asked where I found the info on Elizabeth Von Arnim. I put the name into Google which came up with a long list of articles. I chose #2 which led me to a site called The Literature Network. This site gave a long , full biography of all the events I mentioned plus many more I didn't.
This site also allows you to search for any details on the author that are not mentioned. They also requested readers to compose a quiz on Elizabeth which they would attach to their site of Literary quizzes.
At the bottom of the article is a link to Amazon with six of her books listed with the prices.
Happy hunting!
Jude
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JudeS, Thank you so much. :)
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Bella Marie - like how you say this: . I feel like a young chick popping from my shell, to find all you wonderfully informed, mature, experienced classical mother hens out here, sharing your knowledge, and I can only feel excitement of acquiring even a bit of what you all already know.
Happens to me always when I follow book discussions.
Thanks about the German Garden page and the link from Gumtree.
I've seen the "Enchanted April" film
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 8-14 Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
1. How do you envision the Literary Society meetings now that we are hearing from more members? How has the Literary Society grown from the original six? Which members do you find interesting?
2. "I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did." (Clovis Fossey) Do you know people who feel this way about fiction? How did the busy farmer become interested in poetry? When was the last time you memorized a poem?
3. Why is Adelaide Addison so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondance with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
4. How is Juliet's correspondance with the Guernsey Literary Society affecting her relationship with Mark? Do you sense that Sidney is more than just a big brother friend? (Who is Piers?)
5. Why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers? How do they communicate? What did they have in common?
6. To whom does the Jewish John Booker owe his survival during the occupation? What drew him to the the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)?
7. What gruesome information does Juliet's research reveal about events and conditions on the islands during the occupation? Why does she decide she must go to Guernsey?
8. Will you share your underlining, your notes on this week's letters; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
I have also seen the movie "Enchanted April". I had the feeling as I watched the movie the characters were not British although nowhere in the movie did it indicate this. It seemed like it was written by a European writer not a British author. Did Elizabeth live in England?
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JoanP,
What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society? What do your own choices reveal about you?
Oh dear, my choices would reveal, I am pretty much open to anything. I have tons of books, they range from Princess Di, The Kennedy's, Clintons, many published after the O.J. trial, Poetry, a zillion children's books, religious books, romance, mystery, Liberal, Conservative and Independent writers. I have fiction and non fiction, but I must say one of my very most favorite books I cherish is, Let's Roll by Lisa Beamer (the wife of Todd Beamer who died in the plane taken over by terrorists on 911.) This book will stay with me forever. This couple was more amazing then I could imagine. The lives they led and how they met, and the way they lived their lives up to this devastating day, is an inspiration and testament to all who have faith or lack of. I found this from Charles Morley's, The Haunted Bookshop which fits nicely here:
"I tell you, books are the depositories of the human spirit, which is the only thing in this world that endures. What was it Shakespeare said--
Not marble nor the gilded monuments
Of princes shall outlive this powerful rhyme-- "
The books missing from my collection, I am sad to admit, are classics which I intend to rectify.
I like this particular perscription that is in Charles Morley's essay,
The Haunted Bookshop, it is hanging on a bulletin board in his second hand bookshop for customers who have no idea what they are looking for.
RX
If your mind needs phosphorus, try "Trivia," by Logan Pearsall Smith.
If your mind needs a whiff of strong air, blue and cleansing, from hilltops and primrose valleys, try "The Story of My Heart," by Richard Jefferies.
If your mind needs a tonic of iron and wine, and a thorough rough-and-tumbling, try Samuel Butler's "Notebooks" or "The Man Who Was Thursday," by Chesterton.
If you need "all manner of Irish," and a relapse into irresponsible freakishness, try "The Demi-Gods," by James Stephens. It is a better book than one deserves or expects.
It's a good thing to turn your mind upside down now and then, like an hourglass, to let the particles run the other way.
One who loves the English tongue can have a lot of fun with a Latin dictionary. "
I feel classics are my prescription needed, to turn my hourglass upside down.
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Mary Ann Shaffer was a librarian, which would explain her extensive familiarity
with books of all kinds. The cover of the book had a photograph of Mary Ann and her niece Anne Barrows. Looking at that photo, I found myself wondering if Mary Ann was describing her niece in the charater of Juliet. Physically, Ann looks much the same age and appearance as Juliet.
JOAN, I suspect 'sergeant-at-arms' was not a formal title in the literary society, I suspect it simply reflects Isola's spunky nature.
(JOANR, I'm so glad mine isn't the only house that accumulates debris. Apace, yet!)
MABEL, you are quite right. Remember that Guernsey was the property of the Norman William the Conqueror, and the people there spoke the Norman French tongue. Up until around WWII, many of the native islanders continued to speak French, or so I understand.
BELLAMARIE, thanks for the information about "Let's Roll". It seems the book is much more than I thought it would be; I'm definitely interested in reading it now. And what a lovely RX. I wrote that 'medicine' down for futher reference. (Whatever does phosphorus do for the mind, I wonder?)
As for what my reading would reflect about me, I suspect it would reveal that I prefer where the good guys win, whether triumphing in fact, or in spirit. I get enough of the opposite outcome in the daily news!
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Good morning, Chicks!
It occurs to me that we are feeling just like the members of the literay society - as a whole new worlds open up -right between the pages of a book! JoanR, I know what you mean - we are being pulled in so many directions- I hope everyone is enjoying it as much as I am. I'm wondering if this is how the members of the literary society felt. I can see where it would have taken their minds off the war.
I read Eben Ramsey's first letter to Juliet last evening - His family trade was carving tombstones. He was a fisherman who had spent little time reading. It was Elizabeth who introduced him to Shakespeare. He felt that Shakespeare was writing for people like himself. There was one line that stuck with him through hard times...a line he hoped Elizabeth kept in mind while in prison - I wonder what it means to you - how do you interpret it?
"The bright day is done, and we are for the dark."
Pedln, I can hardly believe that you found Enchanted April right on your own bookshelf? Do you have any idea how long it was sitting there? Will you have some time to read it during the coming weeks? And tell about it at our next meeting? You and Carolyn can do a books into movies report?
Carolyn, thank you for turning to the new page this morning. I remember reading that Elizabeth was born in London. Her mother was the housekeeper for man (Sir Ambrose), who summered in Guernsey. Elizabeth and her mother spent summers with him. When he died, Elizabeth came to close up his summer estate and was still there at the start of the war.
Bellamarie, thank you for your thoughtful response to the question of reading choices. I have to ask you, are you a Gemini? :D You and I sound so much alike - I love Christopher Morley's perscription. I am adding his titles to my list.
Babi, I enjoyed hearing your reasoning for your book choices. I'll bet that extends to movies too. Do you know, does anyone know at what point Annie Barrows took up the task of finishing Mary Ann Shaffer's book? Was she more than an editor? I know that she is a writer herself - she could have added more to the story than MA Shaffer had planned.
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I suppose my books show that I am interested in a lot of very different things (I trust not scatterbrained!) I have a house full of such a variety - most of the classics, some mysteries and sci-fi, a collection of children’s and young adult books that are good for all ages, e.g. “The Mouse and His Child, Alice in Wonderland, the Pullman trilogy, Kim, the Jungle Books and others.
I have one bookcase full of books on books, and books on language. I love aphorisms and have some books of them. I have all of Michael Dirda’s books - they are chock full of good ideas on what to read - I just revere him and miss his book chat. I now also have been acquiring books on ancient history - fiction and non-fiction.
At my age I can’t plan on re-reading everything which is why I have very little current fiction. Those books I borrow from our wonderful library. I am constantly being tempted by so much out there!!!
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Babi,
Mary Ann Shaffer was a librarian, which would explain her extensive familiarity with books of all kinds.
Oh dear, thank you Babi for reminding me, sometimes I wonder where my memory has gone. LOL Very interesting point about Mary Ann using Annie as her possible model for Juliet. I promise, you will love the book, Let's Roll
JoanP, I can assure you, I have never had so much fun! And actually, I am a Leo. ;D
Just another part I want to share with all of you from The Haunted Bookshop, that I feel you will enjoy.
"If you are really interested in bookselling you should come here some evening to a meeting of the Corn Cob Club. Once a month a number of booksellers gather here and we discuss matters of bookish concern over corn-cobs and cider. We have all sorts and conditions of booksellers: one is a fanatic on the subject of libraries. He thinks that every public library should be dynamited. Another thinks that moving pictures will destroy the book trade. What rot! Surely everything that arouses people's minds, that makes them alert and questioning, increases their appetite for books."
"Corn Cob Club" hmm.... "Potato Peel Pie", is it possible Mary Ann got the idea from Morley? And so, here we are, "The SeniorLearn Society."
JoanR, I suppose my books show that I am interested in a lot of very different things (I trust not scatterbrained!)
I fear not scatterbrained at all, or I would have to be too. I think more like Morley states, [i]"Surely everything that arouses people's minds, that makes them alert and questioning, increases their appetite for books." [/i]
Okay, I am off for the day. I have a fundraiser to attend for a 3 yr. old little girl with a tumor on her lung. We hope to raise tons of money to help her.
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Got the book and read the first weeks.. Must confess that I feel like the village idiot or something. I have read Lamb and Seneca, but am more interested at this point in the development of the character. I am so so about Juliet, but love Isola Pribby.. I mean who wouldnt.. " Men are more interesting in books and they are in real life" and "Reading goodbooks ruins you for enjoying bad books".. Now thats the kind of person I would love to know in real life.. A good mind and lots of opinions..
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Alas, JoanP, I don’t think I’ll have time to turn to Enchanted April any time soon. Too many other scheduled books, both here and locally. Not to mention all the other things one want to read just because. Now tell me please, it that a good thing or a bad thing? But Carolyn made an interesting point about it, that she didn’t think it was written by a Britsh woman. Perhaps she and Marj can let you know more.
As for Eben’s quote from Shakespeare – the bright day is done and we are for the dark. It could go two ways. My first thought was – the day is over and behind us and now it’s time to rest. But my second thought, and what I think Eben meant, we’ve had bright good times, but we’ve had dark bad times before; we’ll get over this and bright days will come again.
Steph, I’m so glad your book arrived and I hope you are enjoying it as much as most of here are, and that we haven’t led you astray with all our raves. [I just now saw your post; we’re in agreement on Isola]
Bellamarie, I’m looking at your RX from Morley, and of course immediately pounce on “One who loves the English tongue can have a lot of fun with a Latin dictionary.” But the hourglass comment is a worthy one. Try something different he says. I don’t like weird, was on the ‘not’ side for 100 years of solitude.
I’ve read Isola’s first letter to Juliet I don’t know how many times, and I always feel a bit guilty. Poor Isola, couldn’t even keep her notes on Charlotte and Emily because she had no other paper in the house, and had to burn them to kindle a fire. And I’ve just been throwing those little squares from my Sudoku calendar from 08 away. What a waste. The back sides are perfectly good for notes. But Isola will brighten anyone’s day, and will most likely tell you anything. She reminds me of the Queen in Uncommon Reader, who found reading certain books became easier and easier. And Isola is much the same when she says ‘reading good books ruins you for reading bad ones.’
[This has been a done piecemeal as the electrician’s been here most of the morning, and the power off, but light is again in the office.]
I’ve always considered myself a bit of a lightweight in my reading. Certainly, I want my books to absorb me, I want to get lost in them. Bellamarie, Let’s Roll sounds like that kind of a book. Is it?
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Joan P.
Re:Eben Ramsey's letter where he writes that he feels that Shakespeare was writing for people like him.
When I was in London with Elderhostel we visited Shakespeare's theater "The Globe". and had an interesting lecture on its history and why Shakespeare designed it like he did. The first and second tier were for "gentle folk' , while the third or topmost tier was for prostitutes to make their "assignations".The area , which we today call the orchestra was for poor people who paid a Penny or a Ha'penny to see the show. Shakespeare was the first European playwright who insisted that poor, working people would enjoy the show as much as wealthy ones. And they did. They attended his play in droves. He also insisted that the Theater be built in an area which would be accessible to the masses.
Obviously the authors were aware of this history and so gave the ring of truth to Eben Ramsey's words.
Jude
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pedln, It is one of my all time favorite books I have read. I must say, it has stayed with me since. Rarely, has a book affected me like
Let's Roll. Lisa Beamer is a woman I can only hope, to strive to be.
Steph, I am so glad you have your book. I can see you are hooked already. :)
Off to my fundrasier. Check back later.
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My apologies for not having been able to keep up with the discussion. The severe winter weather has been crippling for arthritis sufferers - and I am one of them. Will try to catch up as fast as I can.
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I probably won't be able to contribute to this discussion as I'm still only number nine on the library list. I did, however, appreciate the link to the book at the Gutenburg Project web site and I will be able to read that. I had forgotten about the Project. I used to proof read for them before my grandchildren moved in with me.
I will still read this book as its so interesting.
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Regarding Elizabeth von Arnim's nationality and the comment that maybe she was not British. - she was born at Kirribilli in Sydney Australia as Mary Annette Beauchamp. There were also family connections in New Zealand - a cousin was the writer Katherine Mansfield. The family left Aust when she was a child and lived in Switzerland - so her upbringing was essentially European - She married a German, Count Henning August Von Arnim (The Man of Wrath). They lived initially in Berlin and then moved to the estate in Pomerania which was the locale for her German Garden book - after divorce she lived in England - there were subsequent marriages, divorces and affaires.
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As for Eben’s quote from Shakespeare – the bright day is done and we are for the dark. It could go two ways. My first thought was – the day is over and behind us and now it’s time to rest. But my second thought, and what I think Eben meant, we’ve had bright good times, but we’ve had dark bad times before; we’ll get over this and bright days will come again.
Yes, Pedln I agree with your second thought. Eben wrote to Juliet that after the Germans came he thought,
Damn them, Damn them, .... If I could have thought the words 'the bright day is done, and we are for the dark' I'd have been consoled somehow and ready to go out and contend with circumstance instead of my heart sinking to my boots
Eben tells us a lot about the German occupation in this letter but we learn even more about Eben himself and his strengths. He is a man who knows himself for what he is... and how poignant is this:
My grandson Eli was evacuated to England when he was seven. He is home now - twelve years old, and tall - but I will never forgive the Germans for making me miss his childhood.
Eli was one of several thousand children evacuated from Guernsey alone whose loved ones missed their childhood and who themselves missed growing up in the midst of their families. And they were the lucky ones who survived the horror.
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Now just what do my bookshelves say about me - emphatically, that I prefer reading to dusting and tidying shelves.
I have a range of areas of interest - ancient and medieval classics and their associated history, drama, classic fiction from just about everywhere and every period but especially 19th century British and European, the Victorian period and its aftermath, 20th Century stuff and contemporary fiction...I like Australiana, literature about horticulture and gardening but not about cooking, and about crafts but not about home improvements - I've history, biography but not much politics.... I don't have some genres -most mystery, romance, sci-fi, and fantasy leave me cold - but there are always exceptions...So what does that say? that I don't know exactly what I like? or alternatively that I like it all - or most of it? What I do know is that I am still hungry for the next book.
Bellamarie I knew it! I just knew it! I'm a Leo too! 8)
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JoanP,
Do you know, does anyone know at what point Annie Barrows took up the task of finishing Mary Ann Shaffer's book? Was she more than an editor? I know that she is a writer herself - she could have added more to the story than MA Shaffer had planned.
I read many interviews Annie did on this book and this seems to answer you question.
Q: At what point in the writing process were you brought in to collaborate?
A: In the summer of 2006, soon after The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society had been sold to Dial Press, Mary Ann's health began to fail. We kept hoping that she would feel better soon, but by the end of the summer, it was clear that the prospect of making the editorial changes on the book was going to be too much for her, and at that point, my cousin Liz called me to ask if I would take on the project. Of course, I said yes. Unlike plumbers or nurses or teachers, writers don't have very many opportunities to be useful to the people they love, and I was honored to be able to help my aunt.
http://www.litlovers.com/interview_guernsey_literary_potato_peel.html
I read in a few other interviews, Annie did the revising and editing. Since we have no idea what the publishers would have wanted revised or edited, it would be difficult to know exactly what Annie's part was. In all her interviews, she does say the book was finished and sent to the publisher, and she was called in to do the revising and editing, since she was a writer in the family.
Oh my heavens, don't tell me I just saw Gumtree, our tooth fairy flitter by me, yet again. lolol A Leo indeed, I would have guessed it! ;) Good night, my friend, sleep tight. zzzzzz
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I had wondered the same thing about Mary Ann and her niece.. Editing can change quite a lot of things in the book.
I will venture onto the second weeks supply today. Since I love Shakespeare, I quite agree with Eben.. He meant to have everyone understand what he was trying to say.
I hope for lots more Isola... And like everyone else worry about Elizabeth
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Annie Barrows stepped in when Mary Ann Shaffer became too ill to go on. Somewhere I read that she not only acted as editor, but also 'fleshed out' the book. So some of what we read is her contribution.
On the letter from Eban to Juliet : The letter describing Eli’s return home really moved me. “I don’t think I could have left off hugging him, if Isola hadn’t pushed me a bit so she could hug him herself.” I can empathize with that so well.''
Will Thisbe to Juliet: “I am an antiquarian ironmonger, though it pleases some to call me a rag-and-bone man.” My eyes are opened! I will never regard the modern equivalent of a ‘rag-and-bone’ man in the same light again. For all I know, I’m looking at an antiquarian ironmonger!
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I forgot I wanted to post a couple of excerpts from the book on/by Seneca.
I was disappointed to learn that Seneca did not always live up to his own standards, but then realized that Stoics do recognize prudence and necessity.
Due to his association with Nero and all that family, simple survival meant doing some things that were contrary to Seneca's beliefs. I thought this quote from his essay on 'Tranquility' hinted at his predicament. : "...you will realize how much less troubled you are with self-depreciation than individuals who are manacled to some specious profession and weighed down by some grandiloquent title and enact their role out of shame rather than choice."
I was surprised and intrigued by Seneca's background. From the 'Introduction'
by translator Moses Hadas: "He belonged to a wealthy and cultivated Spanish family which produced other writers of distinction. Seneca's father....was an influential rhetorician, whose handbooks on debating....can still be read with interest and profit. One of his brothers was Gallio, the procurator of Achaea mentioned in Acts, and another was father of the gifted poet Lucan..." Wow!
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Had to hurry and finish the book since I can't renew it due to "holds".
I'm going to purchase Guernsey and read it leisurely like you all are doing.
Plus dealing with an infected tooth, root canal, and now cellulitis and the meds that go along with all that.
Off to read about Eliz's German Garden.
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Good morning and welcome to Week 2!
MarjV, you will not regret taking a slow boat through the book - though you have finished your library book. You will have a difficult time keeping silence on the outcome. I'm reminded of the Guernsians who had managed to hide their wireless radios and knew about DDay - but had to keep it secret from the German soldiers!!!
Does anyone know how long it took the Germans to evacuate the islands after DDay?
Steph, you will be up to speed in no time at the rate you are going! I love Isola too. In one of these letters, Juliet writes that she wants to be adopted by Mrs. Maugery and to adopt Isola. What do you think she meant by this?
This week we see that the book club is expanding - is there any indication how soon others found out about the meetings and asked to join? Or was it by invitation only? Maybe word got out about Will Thisbee's potato peel pie? :D There are book clubs around here which are quite careful with their membership lists.)
Janice, it is wonderful that you are sticking with us, book or no book! Hopefully you will breeze through with complete understanding when your book rises to the top of the library hold list.
I'm in and out this morning - there is so much to consider in all of your posts and hope to be able to catch up with all of you this evening. I came in this morning to post some late-night thoughts I had on Annie Barrows and Mary Ann Shaffer and would like to get it down, before I forget -
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I read the first para of Elizabeth and her German Garden thru the Gutenberg site. So - I just had to request it thru our lib system to have a book right in my hands.
May 7th.--I love my garden. I am writing in it now in the late afternoon
loveliness, much interrupted by the mosquitoes and the temptation to
look at all the glories of the new green leaves washed half an hour ago
in a cold shower. Two owls are perched near me, and are carrying on a
long conversation that I enjoy as much as any warbling of nightingales.
The gentleman owl says [[musical notes occur here in the printed text]],
and she answers from her tree a little way off, [[musical notes]],
beautifully assenting to and completing her lord's remark, as becomes
a properly constructed German she-owl. They say the same thing over and
over again so emphatically that I think it must be something nasty about
me; but I shall not let myself be frightened away by the sarcasm of
owls.
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From the link to interview with Annie Barrows which Bellamarie posted yesterday -
Anyone who ever met Mary Ann knew that she was a writer-it wasn't just the tales she told, it was her relish in telling them. But writing was hard for her, and she never completed the manuscripts she started. Finally, in the late '90s, a writing group was formed for the express purpose of making Mary Ann write a book. The members were my mother, who doesn't even like to write, and two of Mary Ann's dearest friends. Each dutifully wrote something, until finally it was Mary Ann's turn. There was no way out of it-so she sat down and wrote the beginning of The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
While reading through this interview last night, I stopped on the line - "She, (Mary Ann) never completed the manuscripts she started."
I don't know why that gave me goosebumps, but I realized that MaryAnn hadn't completed Guernsey either.
Babi, I think it was you who wondered if Mary Ann was describing her niece in the the character of Juliet. Last night I found myself wondering if she was describing herself, as she researched Guernsey during the occupation. But then I took it one step further and wondered if Juliet herself was going to finish her own book on the Literary Society. Will someone else have to finish it for her. Ahhh, it was late and I have the wild imagination of the Gemini. In the same interview, Annie Barrows goes on to describe her work on the manuscript - sounds more than an editing job to me.
I didn't actually talk to Mary Ann much while I was working on the book, because she was wasn't well. Before I began, I was a little worried about my ability to carry through with Mary Ann's voice, but once I sat down and started writing, I realized that hers was a voice and a style that I knew from the inside out -- because I had been hearing them all my life. Mary Ann and my mother always lived near each other, and their stories were the wallpaper of my life. Some of these stories are embedded in the book, and some of the characters are direct descendents of people I know (that's as much as I'll say).
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Happy Sunday morning to you all. And what great posts you've put up to begin our second week here. I love the excerpts from the Annie Barrows input, that show us more about Mary Ann Shaffer. And Marj, thanks for the excerpt from Elizabeth and her German Garden. The more I think about von Arnim, the more it doesn't surprise me that our Elizabeth was familiar with her works.
I'm running behind the wire, and must be gone most of the day, but think about this -- gleaned from Model Occupation -- and since we're talking about Eli's evacuation;
What if you had one day, at most a day and a half to decide IF your family would evacuate, or WHO in the family would evacuate or could/would you send ONLY the children? Then y ou get down to the port and see the boats that they're packing them in on, some without lifeboats. This is what the islanders faced.
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Okay, so now I am confused. JoanP, It seems in some interviews Annie has stated the book was complete and gone to the publishers, and she then did the revising and editing. But then, you have pointed out in another interview, she speaks of the book not being complete.
I listened to a couple of audio interviews and she does not ever seem to take credit for adding to the actual story. We don't know exactly what the publishers asked to be revised or edited, so I am suspecting that what ever it was, is what Annie is referring to when she makes the statement, "Before I began, I was a little worried about my ability to carry through with Mary Ann's voice, but once I sat down and started writing, I realized that hers was a voice and a style that I knew from the inside out -- because I had been hearing them all my life."
I'm having a difficult time imagining Annie as having anything more than the part of editing and revising. She states, "it was clear that the prospect of making the editorial changes on the book was going to be too much for her (Mary Ann), and at that point, my cousin Liz called me to ask if I would take on the project."
I suppose we will never really know unless Annie is more specific as to exactly what she did contribute other than editing and revising.
MarjV, Oh how I loved reading Elizabeth and her German Garden. It is so beautifully descriptive, I felt like I was there enjoying the serenity, the flowers, the birds etc. A true house of retreat it appears. I admit I have not had the time to read it in its entirety, but intend to. I can't imagine hurrying through TGLPPPS. It will be worth purchasing.
Okay, so on to the next chapters, since JoanP, has given us the go ahead. I can't wait to see what is next. Back later....
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I'm able to participate a little in this discussion, back to my life again.
This statement had struck me when I first read it, and I see it's a question for this week:
"I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did."
I know several people who will not read fiction. My father was pretty much self-taught, and he read a lot, but never a book of fiction. I suspect the closest to fiction he ever got was reading some of my children's writing assignments from grade school. He wanted to read about real people and real situations, facts and figures. (I don't know how he considered the Bible.)
I never really talked to him about poetry - I never thought of it, but wish I had.
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"I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did."
Glad to have you with us, "N" - and to read your comments on Clovis Fossey's feelings about fiction. Your father and mine too - though to be fair, my father was quite generous in feeding my appetite for fiction - no nonfiction please! Clovis wasn't one of the original members of the literary society, but he probably speaks for some of the other busy farmers who had neither the inclination nor the time for fiction. Especially during these rough times in Guernsey, I can see that this would be time not well spent for many. Do you think that fiction is a luxury, more or less?
And yet Clovis came to love poetry. Wordsworth in particular. Do you think that poetry represents real feelings that he could relate to? I'm wondering if members like Clovis came to appreciate fiction as they heard from other members of the society.
Bellamarie, I read and quoted from the interview that you posted yesterday- in which Annie Barrows speaks of editing and then goes on to post how much work she took on when Mary Ann became ill. For those who missed your post yesterday, I'll put it here again:
An interview with Annie Barrows (http://www.litlovers.com/interview_guernsey_literary_potato_peel.html)
Babi, there's a site in the heading full of Seneca's letters. I'm sure we will be referring to them as we get into John Booker's story and what a story it is. Steph, you were asking whether there were any Jewish on the islands when the Germans came in. Meet John Booker! He writes to Juliet that it was Seneca's letters on leading a good life that kept him from being a drunk. (He also writes that the other members of the Society are tired of hearing from Seneca...but he remains true.)
I've been flipping pages to find the book or the author Elizabeth brought to these meetings. Does anyone remember?
By the way - I've been puzzling over the fact that libraries have such long waiting lists for this book and yet it doesn't appear on best seller lists anywhere. In today's paper, that has changed -
New York Times Best Seller List - Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - NUMBER 8!
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I have been trying to formulate and then post my thoughts so far, but everyone has already done it so well. So thank you for all the quotes and insights and links to other books and authors. It makes this a very good book discussion.
Evelyn
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"Now just what do my bookshelves say about me - emphatically, that I prefer reading to dusting and tidying shelves". RIGHT ON! I'm a fellow Leo. Do you suppose dislike of housework is a trait of Leos?
I think my love of mysteries is partly my love of puzzles, and partly that they appeal to some sense of rightness. Bad things happen, but evildoers are punished and the innocent freed. (Occasional mystery writers let their murderers go free, but I don't read them!)
I also read them to learn about places and situations that are strange to me. Many others must do this too, since there are many mysteries with unusual settings or characters with unusual occupations.. I often say that everything I know I know from reading mysteries. I learn how to race in the iditerod, repair a 400 year old tapestry, survive on an Indian reservation, sew a story quilt, run a used bookstore, etc etc.
I read poetry and great works to connect to the beauty and truth of the universe. Why I read the other miscellany that I read, I have no idea.
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JoanP - is fiction a luxury? No. It's a way of communicating. I think sometimes it's more true than some nonfiction. As JoanK says, we learn a lot from any book. Sometimes, I think I have even improved my behavior by reading a book of fiction, certainly my understanding of some attitudes. I stretch my mind - and that is good. I would think that certain work would pass more quickly if a person was remembering a passage from a book of fiction - or a piece of poetry. Hoeing the garden comes to mind.
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JoanP, I’m really surprised that GLPPS has not been on any best seller list. How could that be? I wonder if it first became so well-known through libraries, bookstores and word of mouth. ALA listed it as one of the Best Books for Young Adults for 2008. This has sent me searching for why and how – and the link below is from none other than J.A. Jance. She was winding up her own book tour, but too tired to tell the bookseller that she wanted to read something like Fried Green Tomatoes. “She must have been reading my mind because that’s what she gave me”
Writers are Readers -- J.A. Jance (http://www.writersarereaders.com/janceshafferbarrowstheguernseyliteraryandpotatopeelsociety.html)
In the face of tragedies great and small, in a world where whistling can be part of a counter-insurgency, these brave folks find that books — all kinds of books — help bind them together while offering a source of solace and wisdom.
This is storytelling at its best, telling the story of storytelling. Wonderful. Delightful. Difficult. All the things a good book should be.
J.A. Jance
I was surprised that the three well-read educated women I was with this afternoon had not heard of it.
N and JoanK, I think your thoughts about fiction are right on.
I often say that everything I know I know from reading mysteries.
from JoanK
we learn a lot from any book. Sometimes, I think I have even improved my behavior by reading a book of fiction, certainly my understanding of some attitudes. I stretch my mind - and that is good. I would think that certain work would pass more quickly if a person was remembering a passage from a book of fiction - or a piece of poetry. Hoeing the garden comes to mind.
from N
Heck, how much did we know about Guernsey back in 2008?
Evelyn, glad to see you here, and please, pop in with your thoughts any time.
Well, I’ve been flipping pages to see if there’s any mention of what books Elizabeth talked about at the Society meeting, but could find no mention. Perhaps more Elizabeth von Arnim. But here is a list of those brought by the others, as I sometimes have trouble remembering who brought what.
Dawsey – Charles Lamb
Amelia – Gardening books
Clovis – poetry, especially WW I poems, also Wordsworth
Booker – Seneca
Eben – Shakespeare
Isola – Bronte sisters
Will Thisbee – Thomas Carlyle
Clara Saussey – cookbook – was poetry in a pan
I love the way the Society is evolving – first they just talked about what they’d read. Then they started trying to persuade the others to read their books. Don’t we all do that? Isn’t that kind of what we do here?
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I do agree that we tend to try to convince others of authors we have fallen in love with.. or care about. Dawsey made me laugh..." Isola has a cough syrup called Davils Suck and I pray I'll never need it" That woman must have made me grandmother. She made her own cough syrup and it was powerful stuff. One sip and you vowed never to cough again.
I am absolutely fascinated with the island itself.. and the occupation. So the jews were in face singled out. I did wonder about that. To send my children away on a days notice. How hard that had to be..
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Oh dear, I read up to May 13th, and now I must say I need to go back and read it again. I have a ton of sidenotes, underlines, quotes marked, etc. It seems our Society is growing, and I can barely keep up with who is who now. I am glad to finally hear from Sidney and know he has a broken leg. My suspicions were correct in thinking possibly something was wrong, to keep him from contacting Juliet. Still, it does seem a bit odd he didn't take the time, to at least inform her of the broken leg sooner.
Do you sense that Sidney is more than just a big brother friend? (Who is Piers?)
Well, I am not going to be shy about my feelings where Sidney is concerned. I don't feel he has romantic feelings for Juliet at this point. If anything, he shows much more care and concern for his friend Piers. Is it possible he has some type of feelings more than friendship for Piers? They mention Piers is a writer, and good friend. Guess time will tell.
"I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did." (Clovis Fossey) Do you know people who feel this way about fiction? How did the busy farmer become interested in poetry? When was the last time you memorized a poem?
I always enjoyed reading fiction books until the past few years. Now, I find myself only interested in nonfiction. I love knowing what I am reading is real. I like knowing the people experienced all that they are writing about. Mind you, I suspect one day I would like a fiction, romance novel, but lately, all my mind is thirsty for, is facts and real life stories. I can't say I have ever memorized a poem in its entirety ever. I have wrote many poems, and had a few actually published, and I am ashamed to admit I could not quote you, my poems, word for word. Is that weird??? I write special poems to my husband and grandchildren, and still I can not recite them. Is it my memory, or do other writers have this same problem? How in God's name could those Bronte' sisters remember every word in those never ending poems? I would love to talk with other writers, to see if they remember their work word for word, or do they remember what inspired them to write a particular poem, and the highlights of the message in them. Anyone want to weigh in on this and give me some insight?
JoanK, Do you suppose dislike of housework is a trait of Leos?
I am a Leo, but a compulsive house keeper. I am getting a bit more relaxed, since I turned 50 though. Try to imagine me, an in home day care provider, with cream carpet and not a stain on it. lolol I must admit my entire basement has been converted to my business. Dust is something I accept will always return. so I don't fret about it. ;)
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JOANP:
"Juliet writes that she wants to be adopted by Mrs. Maugery and to adopt Isola. What do you think she meant by this?"
To me, Juliet was saying she thought Mrs. Maugery was the perfect, warm, wise Mother, and Isola was like childlike with her energy and enthusiasm for life.
MARJV "the sarcasm of owls" What a delightful phrase!
"I think my love of mysteries is partly my love of puzzles, and partly that they appeal to some sense of rightness. Bad things happen, but evildoers are punished and the innocent freed."
EXACTLY! You and me both, JoanK
4/10, Amelia to Juliet: She is talking about the Todt prisoners, the men and boys brought in from conquered countries to do the hard labor. They were ill-fed, overworked and wore whatever rags they came in. And this, it seems, was a deliberate, planned extermination…’Death by Exhaustion’, a policy of Himmler. I was so moved by the Todt prisoner who just wanted to see the children, reaching through the wire to hold their faces, touch their hair.
This book has a surprising range. From the lighthearted fun of some of the antics of the Literary Society members, to the horrors of the war and the post-war hardships. I was surprised when I learned that the authors are not British. The images of what life was like in London during and after the war are so personal (like buying a new dress), and so realistic, like the grayness that seemed always to cover the city.
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pedln, Thank you for the list of people, and their books. It is a big help, I am getting a bit confused with all the new characters. ???
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I'm reading Elizabeth and her German Garden and am enjoying it very much.
In our first week's reading, Adelaide Addison calls Isola "a practicing witch, who, by her own admission to me, distills and sells potions." (March 1, 1946) She also describes the rest of the group: "a rag-and-bone man, a lapsed Alienist who drinks, a stuttering swine-herd, a footman posing as a Lord". What colorful, but condescending descriptions! Guess she thinks she's better than anyone else!
I love Isola. I think she's a bit eccentric, but folksy, too. I'm hoping that her remedies will come in handy during the German occupation and she'll be able to nurse someone back to health with her herbs.
Hmm, the books on my bookshelves. Well, I have a whole collection of Stephen King which belonged to my husband. He's been gone for nine years, but I can't bring myself to part with them. I love fiction, but not romantic novels. In my younger days I read Danielle Steele.
I love books that make me feel good. Too much around now that makes us feel bad. Five People You Meet in Heaven. All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten. A New Earth. Feeling Good.
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I love the way you find out a little bit of something and only later find out what it's all about. Sydney broke his "other" leg!! Sooner or later, we'll know what Juliet had to do with breaking the first one, but we'll have to wait.
Wild thought! (I haven't read ahead, so don't know). Maybe Sydney isn't in Australia at all, but in the US, checking up on Mark.
Mark! How can Juliet be such an idiot about men!! If the fact that he never wants to just hang with her, but only tke her to fancy restaurants and parties doesn't alert her, the fact that he screams at her when she says she wants to think about his proposal should send her running madly in the opposite direction!! A control freak at best, an abuser at worst.
What do you suppose they talk about in those restaurants? His letters show no personality at all. Probably some line he has developed.
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JoanK,
A control freak at best, an abuser at worst.
Well, I guess I will play the devil's advocate yet once again, where it comes to Juliet and her relationship with a man. I can understand Mark feeling upset with her. He has wined and dined her, and she admittedly loved every minute of it. While I don't think she needed to say yes to his proposal, I'm seeing a side of Juliet who seems to like the "idea" of romance. Mark's tirade, "he began shouting about Sidney and godforsaken islands and women who care more about a passel of strangers than men who are right in front of them (that's Guernsey and my new friends there.), I feel was hurt he was feeling from the rejection he was feeling. He could see how much she cares about all the things she mentions, so he must be frustrated to have fallen in love with her, when he realizes she is not ready or able to return those feelings.
I didn't see Rob Dartry or Markham Reynolds a control freak or abuser for what they contributed to the relationship or break up. In both incidences Juliet admits her part. She questions her ability to love and committ. I don't feel she has found her "Prince Charming", and should not have gotten married or engaged up to this point, but I see no reason to fault the men for their reactions for loving her, and being hurt and disappointed when they realized she was not ready to committ, or as much in love, if at all with them.
In my opinion, I see Mary Ann Shaffer, writing the character of Juliet, in the sense of loving the idea of the unattainable love. At this point I pity any man who sets their sights on her. Dawsey, please be cautious!
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Oh my goodness, we’ve got something going here about Mark and Juliet. That was a good point, JoanK, about his seeming to want her in show-off places – parties and fancy restaurants. But Bellamarie makes sense too, when she says you can’t fault the man for being disappointed that she’s not really reciprocating his feelings. But, aside from Rob Darty and the St. Swithin’s furnace man ( ;) ) just how much experience has Juliet had with suave and debonaire? And Juliet herself acknowledges that she does not know him well enough to marry him. She’s come close to getting burned and doesn’t want that to happen again.
Babi, you are so right -- This book has a surprising range. And you express that range so eloquently. What I find amazing is that it’s done so adeptly. We get to know these people in such a short time. Even Eli’s thank you note to Juliet for the wood gives us a clue to what little Kit is like – “she says she won’t ever touch my whittling knife again if I carve her a ferret.”
Nancy, isn’t Isola a wonder. I love her, too, and as you say, she is eccentric. But probably the most interesting of the members. Certainly the most candid. She doesn’t like blondes, she thinks people who live by the water are nicer than those who live inland. And men? She’s never had a passionate affair.
Someone earlier asked about the Jewish population on Guernsey. According to Model Occupation, most of the Jews on all the Channel Islands evacuated, but there were some who were not able to do so – mostly single women from Germany and Austria who were seeking sanctuary from the conditions there and had found jobs as domestics on the Islands. And then when those Islands became endangered they were not able to get into Britain. The story is told of a young Austrian woman, Therese, who went to work as a dental assistant for a dentist in Kent. She also ended up being their part-time nanny. In 1939 the whole family, including Therese, took their annual summer holiday on one of the smaller Channel Islands. War broke out while they were there and the family returned to England, but not Therese. English immigration authorities had ordered that no Germans or Austrians enter England. Therese found work at the hospital in Guernsey, and made friends there, but after three years was deported. Elizabeth and Amelia were right to warn John Booker.
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I am amazed that noone turned in John Booker. Adelaide sounds and acts like a typical.."I know best " kind of human, so I thought surely she would.. Thank heaven, no.. I liked his remarks about Seneca.."Writing about imaginary friends on how to behave" Sounds like fun
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 8-14 Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
1. How do you envision the Literary Society meetings now that we are hearing from more members? How has the Literary Society grown from the original six? Which members do you find interesting?
2. Is there a deeper meaning to the various characters' choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book? (Jude)
3. "I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did." (Clovis Fossey) Do you know people who feel this way about fiction? How did the busy farmer become interested in poetry? When was the last time you memorized a poem?
4. Why is Adelaide Addison so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondance with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
5. How is Juliet's correspondance with the Guernsey Literary Society affecting her relationship with Mark? Do you sense that Sidney is more than just a big brother friend? (Who is Piers?)
6. Why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers? How do they communicate? What did they have in common?
7. To whom does the Jewish John Booker owe his survival during the occupation? What drew him to the the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)?
8. What gruesome information does Juliet's research reveal about events and conditions on the islands during the occupation? Why does she decide she must go to Guernsey?
9. Will you share your underlining, your notes on this week's letters; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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I love the way you find out a little bit of something and only later find out what it's all about.(JoanK)
I've been thinking about this very thing - isn't it so true with everything we learn - the way we acquire knowledge, get to know people, discover authors? it takes time to assemble all the bits and pieces.
I'm thinking of first impressions - don't you sometimes misread a person on first meeting?
Pedln comments on how deftly the authors have portrayed the characters - "we get to know them in such a short time." Do you think it is the letter form, the epistolary writing that makes this possible? We all love Isola - but I'm not so sure she would make such a positive first impression. We met her through her letter to Juliet, in which she told us about herself in a way we couldn't help but love her.
It is fascinating watching Juliet come to life through her letters - day by day, little by little. Of course she is flattered by Mark's attention - this is romance, rumba and roses, French restaurants - as Bellamarie writes, she's loving every minute of it. On this level, Mark has made a strong first impression. And yet, she isn't ready to accept his proposal. I'm not so sure this means that she is unable to commit or that Mary Ann Shaffer has written a story of unattainable love. We will have to see. It might just mean that Juliet is getting to know herself more - getting to know what is really important to her. Already she says she "loves Dawsey Adams and Eben Ramsey."
Joank, you may be too tough on Mark. He wants to marry her, take her back to New York. His intentions seem honorable enough. But what does he see in Juliet? He wants her to forget about Guernsey once the article is written. Does he really know her? Does he know what she likes to read? Does he know what is important to her? Does he care?
Juliet responds in a letter to Isola's question about having a beau - about the things she does not know about Mark - she hopes he doesn't arrange his books alphabetically. That gave me pause. How do you arrange your books?
It's been quite interesting reading about your interests in reading - such range. After listing the different "genres" - fiction and non-fiction, you seem to find a common denominator when describing your preferences. I love that - I can't really figure out who you are from the wide range you describe, but when you distill down to what you like about your choices, now I feel I know you better!
Have you noticed a major difference between the interests expressed by our SeniorLearn Literary and those in Guernsey? They each seem to profess a loyalty of sorts to one field of interest - one author. How can this be explained? Did the authors have a reason for creating these "representatives" for each of the literary genres?
Everything about the existence and the success of this society points to Elizabeth - and yet nothing is said about what she shared at these literary meetings. Don't you find that fascinating?
Have a fine day. I can't wait to get back to our "meeting"!
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Good morning, Steph -
Almost missed you - yes, I worry about what Adelaide Addison will do - or has done to interfere with the happy little literary society. Maybe she didn't know that John Booker was Jewish...but she did know that the father of Elizabeth's baby was the German officer - she wrote to Juliet about that. She really has it in for Elizabeth. At first I thought that she might have reported Elizabeth to get her off the island. What is behind her wrath? (I'm beginning to feel sorry for her, I don't know why.)
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Comments on Mark and Juliet: From Bellamarie - "he began shouting about Sidney and godforsaken islands and women who care more about a
passel of strangers than men who are right in front of them
(that's Guernsey and my new friends there.)"
JOANP: He wants her to forget about Guernsey once the article is written. Does he really know her? Does he know what she likes to read? Does he know what is important to her? Does he care
?
Joan's imression is what I'm seeing in Mark. While I can understand Bellamarie's observations about Mark being 'hurt', his hurt seems to me to be more anger. His ego is hurt; he is not accustomed to women who don't make him the center of attraction.
Mark takes no interest whatever in the things that mean the most to Juliet. He wants her to marry him and give up her writing. While the other people around Juliet are delighted with the people of Guernsey, especially little Kit, Mark is apparently interested only in himself and what he wants.
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JoanP, How do you arrange your books?
This made me giggle. lolol I looked at my book shelves and realized, I first try to arrange my books so they line up tallest to shortest, the tallest touching the side of the book shelf. It is important to me to try to keep the same authors close together. I am even willing to turn a book on its side to fit in height, rather than have it short and sticking out from all the others.
So, what would Freud say about me?
JoanP,I'm not so sure this means that she is unable to commit or that Mary Ann Shaffer has written a story of unattainable love. We will have to see.
Yes, I am anxious to see if Juliet is able to find a man she is ready and willing to love and committ to. So far her responses to the break ups, have been her questioning herself and complimenting the man. Pg. 134 "I used to get shivers about Ransom. Sometimes I do about Mark, too_when I look at him_but I can't get over the nagging feeling that I am no Eulalie. If I were ever to fall off a horse, it would be lovely to be picked up by Mark, but I don't think I am likely to fall off a horse any time soon."
One thing that I question is the age of Juliet, and how she has not matured into knowing herself and being able to committ. Back in those times, you would be considered an old spinster not being married, at the age of 32. In my opinion, I feel Mary Ann has written parts of this book and the actions of some characters in the premise of today's generation. It's like the past and the present colliding.
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Babi,
While I can understand Bellamarie's observations about Mark being 'hurt', his hurt seems to me to be more anger. His ego is hurt; he is not accustomed to women who don't make him the center of attraction.
Mark takes no interest whatever in the things that mean the most to Juliet. He wants her to marry him and give up her writing. While the other people around Juliet are delighted with the people of Guernsey, especially little Kit, Mark is apparently interested only in himself and what he wants.
Thank you Babi, for understanding my observation of Mark being hurt. I agree Mark is expressing his hurt with anger, which many people do, including Juliet when she yelled at Rob. It in no way nullifies the fact Mark is hurt. I don't see it as his ego alone. Everyone's ego takes a blow when rejected, but I think he is genuinely in love with Juliet and is hurt by her rejection. Is he in love with the woman he sees her to be and wants her to be? Possibly, but then again in the beginning of each romance and relationship and early years of marriage don't we all have this idea of the person we love? Is it always in line with who they actually are, or end up to be? We get ideas of who we want them to be, and how they will fulfill the part in our life. I think Mark has respect for Juliet and her writing, I just think he sees her caring more for her writing and Gurensey friends, then she cares for him. At this point he is correct.
I am only conjecturing my opinions on Juliet's words. In argument of you saying Mark in only interested in himself and being center of attention, and only his ego is hurt, on pg. 133 Juliet writes to Sophie and says, "Here's the thing, Sophie_Mark Reynolds is exactly like Ransom. He's tall and handsome, with a crooked smile and chiseled jaw. He shoulders his way through the crowd, careless of the glances that follow him. He's impatient and magnetic, and when I go to powder my nose, I overhear other women talking about him, just like Eulalie did in the museum. People notice him. He doesn't try to make them_they can't help it."
On pg. 134 "He wants me to stay in London and go to restaurants and theaters and marry him like a reasonable person."
No where does Juliet say he does not want her to continue writing. She sees his expectations reasonable. They are just not what she wants. I guess my only reason for defense of the two men she has broken up with, is that some make them out to be uncaring, selfish, abusive, egotistical, and a bit of a cad, when Juliet has not given us that impression what so ever. She questions herself each time. Which in my opinion, the author wants the reader to question where Juliet is at in her life, where she sees herself, and where she is headed? At this point, she is headed to Guernsey Island. Let's see if she breaks any hearts there, or if her heart may be broken.
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One thing that I question is the age of Juliet, and how she has not matured into knowing herself and being able to committ. Back in those times, you would be considered an old spinster not being married with children, at the age of 32. In my opinion, I feel Mary Ann has written parts of this book and the actions of some characters in the premise of today's generation. It's like the past and the present colliding.
from Bellamarie
Well, there's been a war on. Most young men have not been around.
We know Juliet is 33 because that's what she told Isola. What about some of the others -- Amelia we know is probably older than the others, excluding Eben who's a grandfather. She's known Dawsey for 30 years, but adult years or has she watched him grow up. I picture Isola as one of those women of indeterminent age -- she'll always appear the same. As for Dawsey, is he older than draft age or did he stay on Guernsey because of his farm? Bunting tells us that young men of fighting age were the first to be evacuated from the Channel Islands.
Have you noticed that Juliet, Isola, Dawsey and Amelia are now on a first name basis in their letters?
JoanP, my bookshelves are stuffed -- and the books put in every which way.
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Pedln,
Well, there's been a war on. Most young men have not been around.
For some reason I have not gotten the impression the war effected Juliet and her society of people, as it did the people on Guernsey. For her age, and the people she came in contact with at the Spectator, and Sidney's family, I think there would have been plenty suitors for her.
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Just getting back into the book. Had computer problems last week but it seems to be up for now. Had to erase my external hard drive after transferring all that info to another HD.
I have been trying to read all the comments here but finally gave up and came into the last one this morning.
About Dawsy, I believe he explained to Juliet that he wasn't fighting in the war due to a leg injury that didn't bother him much but kept him from joining up.
Earlier, JoanP mentioned Clovis and his wanting not to read fiction. I find Clovis to be a very humble man.
In fact, most of the people in the society seem to be humble and defer to each other so gently. Ages??? I think mostly 30's to 50's.
About the way the society meetings go---it seems to be that one person plans to talk about his/her book at each meeting but if I remember, some of them are trying to write also and want to be heard on their titles. And, always they are bios. And although some are considered boring, the group accepts their talking about their writings since they like the writer or writers.
I loved John Booker's attachment to his one author.
I had to return my book yesterday but have another on the way. I am also listening to the audio book which is really done well, with five actors taking the different characters. Most interesting that they give voice to people that we now know didn't speak English but a form of French.
Earlier, I found this link about Guernsey during the occupation and there were some pictures of the bunkers that the Germans built. Here 'tis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands)
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Forgot to mention that the picure under my name is latest great grandson, Liam Garret Alden Fowler, age 3 months now.
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Clovis Fossey) How did the busy farmer become interested in poetry?
Dear sweet, sly old Clovis. You just gotta love him. Bless his heart that he would take the advice on how to pursue the Widow Hubert, from Ralph, who got to hold her arm. Would that be considered 1st base in this time period.? (Just kidding) Ralph says, "Women like poetry." Clovis_"So I thought_If it's rhymes the Widow Hubert wants, I will find me some."
This is how he began attending the meetings, won his Nancy's hand in marriage, and found a love for poetry himself.
I loved the story Eben told about hiding the pig and passing the dead pig along. That Amelia was a real brainstormer. Eben's letter about his grandson Eli, Jane and her baby dying was so sad. Elizabeth sure is proving to be one very caring, loyal, strong friend. I am hoping she returns.
Now we know why Amelia invited Dawsey to the pig roast... She needed Dawsey to come kill her pig quietly, "because there was a German battery by her farm, and it would not do for the soldiers to hear the pig's death squeal and come running. Pigs have always been drawn to Dawsey_he could come in a barnyard, and they would rush up to him and have their backs scratched. They set up a shindy for anyone else_squealing, snuffling, and plunging about. But Dawsey, he could soothe them down and he knew just the right spot under the chin to slip his knife in quick. There wasn't the time for the pigs to squeal; they'd just slide quietly onto the ground sheet."
I like how Dawsey did not want to sugar coat his betrayal to the pigs when Eben said, "I told Dawsey they only looked up once in surprise, but he said no, pigs were bright enough to know betrayal when they met it, and I wasn't to try to pretty matters up."
Dawsey seems a kind and gentle man from his letters to Juliet, but for some reason, I can't quite explain, this upset me. I know desperate times, call for desperate measures, and killing animals is something that must be done. I think the fact that the animal trusted Dawsey, and he knew it, and he then slaughtered it, is what bothered me.
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TCM network is airing the movie "Enchanted April" tonight (Tuesday) at 9:00 p.m CST. The blurb says it is about four Englishwomen who rent a villa in Italy - made in 1991. Is this the story written by the author of "Elizabeth's German Garden"?
I'm enjoying reading all the observations and comments. By the time I come in to make mine - someone else has all ready said it! :)
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Oh, don't miss that movie! Its delightful and I think we have seen it about 4 times. I have always loved Joan Plowright. She chooses such good play and movies to be part of. Have you seen "Tea With Mussolini"? Another super movie!
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Calliein-
Yes , that movie "Enchanted April" is based on the novel of the same name by Elizabeth Von Arnim.
I wondered about the symbolism of the authors chosen by the various characters. Is there a deeper meaning to their choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book?
First and foremost-Charles Lamb. He had immense difficulties to overcome in his life. From the time he was born, when his older sister Mary was ten, she did most of the caretaking of the boy. Her greatest accomplishment , she felt, was teaching him to read at the age of three.
Their Mother was bedridden most of the time and their father was very prone to drink heavily.
Although Charles got a scholarship to a boys school at age seven he suffered from a stutter and could not take top honors .
Therefore at age 14 he went to work and quickly became the families only breadwinner.
Both Charles and Mary were prone to Depression and Charles spent six weeks in a Mental Hospital when he was 20. The next year Mary took a knife and stabbed their Mother to death. During the trial in which she was acclaimed to be insane ,Charles persuaded the Judges that he would keep her safe and out of the publics way if he was declared her guardian.
So at age 21 (Mary was 31) Charles became her guardian and she lived with him for the rest of her life. She outlived him by 13 years. Neither of them married.
Through all this Charles kept up his employment with the British East India Company and wrote in his spare time. When the idea of writing a children's version of Shakespeares tales came up,they decided that Charles would deal with the tragedies and Mary , the comedies.
So success under pressure and tragedy. Can this be the lesson we are to learn for the choice of Charles Lamb or was the author chosen on a whim by Shaffer?
Jude
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Love reading all your comments. My book had to be returned. I too got the Gurensey characters mixed up except for Dawsey - I guess his calm & meditative self appealed to me. glimpses of their meetings were neat!
Saw this article on the Todt in wikipedia. Interested me that the Germans treated those men as slaves aka "forced labor".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt
~Marj
ps - and I thought Mark superficial right from the get go.
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Ann is here - with little Liam in tow! At last! I would love to hear this book on tape - different voices for each letter writer. The book should lend itself to audio very well. Right now though, I'll stick with the book. It is very difficult keeping up with this crowd.
Evelyn, and Callie, please don't get discouraged - there is plenty of space for you to speak your mind. Like, how are your books arranged on your shelves, for example?Juliet hopes that Mark doesn't arrange his alphabetically. It seems that would disturb her - (not quite as much as the fiancé who replaced her books with his athletic trophies however.)
My husband put himself in charge of "our" books very early in our marriage. One side of the room is all hardcover, according to genre. Within this genre, everything is alphabetized. Another large book case, floor to ceiling is paperback...organized the same way. If I happen vary from this - put a paperback over with the hardcover by the same author, he quietly puts the book in the "right" spot.
I don't think Juliet would have been too happy with this arrangement.
When Bruce retired, he spent a morning while I was out - alphabetizing my spice jars! Let me tell you, they were immediately returned to my system!
Annie, the Wikipedia site is great! One could get lost in it. I love those photos of Guernsey.
And MarjV, thank You for the Wiki site on the Todt. If I remember correctly, there were something like 16,000 men brought in as slave labor to defend Guernsey, build the wall.
Callie, thank you so much for letting us know about Enchanted April. I checked and it is playing tonight in the EAST at 10 pm! How on earth am I going to stay awake? Maybe a little nap this evening.
Here's a trailer for the movie - I hope you can see it. It looks delicious! Just from the trailer, I feel I know Elizabeth von Amin!
Trailer for Enchanted April (http://www.tcm.com/video/videoPlayer/?cid=222502&titleId=74060)
Do you suppose that Elizabeth was reading Elizabeth von Amin's Elizabeth's German Garden for the meetings...to keep up the charade when the German officers came to the society's meetings? Remember there were 27 novels by "the author of Elizabeth's German Garden."
Do you remember how long the meetings went on with the original 6 before others began to show up? I'd think they would have been intimidated by the presence of the Germans at the meetings.
I'm going to spend some time considering Jude's question about the symbolism of the authors chosen by the various characters. Is there a deeper meaning to their choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book?
You make a good case for Dawsey Adams choice of Charles Lamb, Jude. - success under pressure and tragedy.
But what of Clovis Fossey and poetry, Bellamarie? He memorized rhymes to please the widow Hubert. He later came to love poetry. What did he love about Wordsworth? Do you see a reason why Shaffer would match Clovis with poetry?
OK, I need a nap if I'm to stay awake for Enchanted April. It does look wonderful.
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AdoAnnie, yes, I have seen "Tea With Mussolini" and absolutely loved it!
Thank you, Joan. I finished the book (and also had to return it because "others were waiting" and I was not allowed to re-check it) and am impatiently waiting for the rest of you to discover some things you've been speculating about - at which time, I will say, "AHA"! ;)
Books arranged? What a concept! :D I attempt to have them divided into areas for fiction, non-fiction, genealogy and Oklahoma History - but I keep "needing" to consult one or another and those end up wherever I put them down. Good thing I live in a duplex and don't have that many places to search.
I'm thankful that "Enchanted April" is on a cable channel instead of a local network. The OKC metro area (and my town in particular) was hit with a major tornado this afternoon and that's all the local stations can talk about. They're beginning to repeat themselves and I will welcome having something else to watch.
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CALLIE: we've been seeing pictures here too. I'm so glad you're ok. How far from you was it.
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JoanP,
"I checked and it is playing tonight in the EAST at 10 pm! "
OH DRAT!!!!!.....I skimmed my channel list for 9:00 and did not see it, so I looked no further. Guess I will have to be happy with the trailer.
But what of Clovis Fossey and poetry, Bellamarie? He memorized rhymes to please the widow Hubert. He later came to love poetry. What did he love about Wordsworth? Do you see a reason why Shaffer would match Clovis with poetry?
Clovis connected with poets who were "war poets." As he states, "It was the poetry of Wilfred Owen. He was an officer in the First World War, and he knew what was what and called it by its right name. I was there, too, at Passchendaele, and I knew what he knew, but I could never put it into words for myself."
I loved how Clovis voiced his disdain for Yeats for not putting any WW1 poems in his Anthology, "The Oxford Book of Modern Verse, 1892-1935. He says, "They let a man named Yeats make the choosings. They shouldn't have. Who is he_and what does he know about verse?"
I had to giggle at the thought of Clovis, deciding Yeats had no business choosing the poems for his book. lol Clovis was really ticked to find Mr. Yeats said, "I deliberately chose NOT to include any poems from World War 1. I have a distaste for them. Passive suffering is not a theme for poetry."
Clovis, I believe was looking not only for a way of dealing with what he had lived and seen in the war, but he also was looking for these poets to give honor and validity to the men who fought and died. He says, "Passive Suffering? Passive Suffering! I nearly seized up. What ailed the man? Lieutenant Owen, he wrote a line, "What passing bells for these who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger of the guns." What's passive about that, I'd like to know? That's exactly how they do die. I saw it with my own eyes, and I say to hell with Mr. Yeats."
I daresay, I agree with you Clovis. Shame on Mr. Yeats. Shaffer chose to put Clovis with the war poets, because he would appreciate and connect with these works, since he had been a soldier in the war.
JoanP, My husband put himself in charge of "our" books very early in our marriage.
When Bruce retired, he spent a morning while I was out - alphabetizing my spice jars!
Rolling on the floor laughing my head off.......taking charge of the books on the shelves would have been a deal breaker for Juliet. Alphabetizing spice jars...hmmm time to get a part time job, or take up golfing. Now I am concerned for when my husband retires in the next year or so. lololol ::) ::) ::)
CallieinOK, Thank you, Joan. I finished the book (and also had to return it because "others were waiting" and I was not allowed to re-check it) and am impatiently waiting for the rest of you to discover some things you've been speculating about - at which time, I will say, "AHA"!
How dare you tease us!
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Bellamarie - ;D
JoanK - touch down was 3 miles north/1 mile east of me. That's a long way for tornadoes.
I didn't get to watch "Enchanted April" because an out-of-state friend called to see if I was o.k. - and we talked for over an hour.
Fortunately, I could reach the t v remote and was able to set things up to record it. So - I shall look forward to seeing it tomorrow.
"All Quiet On (this part of) The Western Front" and I'm off to bed.
Sleep well, everyone, and have pleasant dreams.
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Whew.. Having problems getting through today on Senior Learn. I did laugh about the books.. I keep aut hors together and genres together, but that is it .. And my to read basket is simply stacks in no order at all. That way about once a month, I go through and move things around as to how I am feeling about reading for a bit.
I was struck by Dawseys description of Christian, Elizabeths friend. He makes him human.. Although in that letter, I was more struck by Dawsey's great need to help others. A kind and caring man.
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Time is limited today...
How do I arrange my books? Mostly by whether they are read, to be read or in the process of reading....some of the "keepers" are arranged neatly on shelves to fit with other items. But both my husband and I had stacks in places where we can find them and grab them - a living room book, a bedroom book, even a car book.
I found this article when reading on line this morning:
http://www.jsonline.com/features/food/39375492.html
It goes back to earlier discussions, but I thought it was interesting how the book discussion moved into another direction as well.
The broad selection of books and authors in this book AND in this discussion could keep me reading and exploring for a long time. I'm looking for a copy of one of Elizabeth Von Arnim's books through my library system right now.
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OH, I am caught!! I'm with Bruce on the books and on the spices!!
Way back in the olden days of TV, I saw a man explain how he organized his kitchen food stuffs on the old Phil Donahue show. One thing he suggested was alphabatizing the spices. I was so sick of doing the big search when I wanted a particular spice from the jumbled mess in the the cupboard, that I decided to try his method. And I love it. Can't stand it if anyone gets anything out of place. Even bought some special telescoping shelves when we moved here. It works so well and saves my temper for another day.
Having worked in a bookstore for a few years, I also have a large amount of my books arranged in HB, author names and sometimes genre plus PBs are across the room in another set of bookshelves and they are arranged the same way. Well, you've seen all this, JoanP, when you were perusing Ralph's workshop last year. Sounds like Bruce would have approved of the workshop also. Its so well done.
Another of my days of working in a bookshop, is if I am in the grocery store, I tend to return things to their proper order. Even things that are out of place. I have been known to redo the card section, the pickles, the books and the magazines that are staring at me while I await my turn at the cash register.
I did notice the other day that I seem to have broken this habit since I ,shall we say, matured! Hahaha!
This author has really given us a fabulous amount of reading material and has gone to the trouble to give a reason for each member's choice of books along with their personalities seeming to fit those choices. I was ROFLOL when I read about Clovis and his trouble with Yeats and his mention of "passive suffering".
I finished the audio book last night plus had to return the book two days ago. But, I was able to get on the list for another copy, and as of yesterday, voila! its here, right beside me. So, I will peruse it again for more ideas.
nlhome, I did enjoy the article on this book and the book club telling how they save money and a recipe for the potato peel pie. It reads more like a "skins" recipe which is offered in one of our restaurants. But it does sound good.
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Bellamarie, I think your quote picks up a key point, when Juliet says: "but I don't think I'm likely to fall of a horse any time soon." To me, that is saying that she is not some helpless female who would be happy to let a husband run her life. And Mark does show signs of intending to run her life.
You are right, and the expected age for marriage in those days. Thinking about wartime Britain, tho', I can see how the old norms and expectations would be pretty well shattered.
Good for you, JOANP. Husbands should understand that unless they are doing the cooking, they should not meddle with the cook's arrangements.
What a sad story about Charles Lamb and his sister Mary. Virtually all I knew about Lamb is that he wrote essays under the name of Elias. I wonder what kind of ‘madness’ afflicted Mary, that could keep recurring, but leave her sane and normal in-between episodes? “….she herself could tell when the madness was coming on, and could do nothing to stop its coming.” What a terrible thing to live with, whether it’s happening to oneself, or you are seeing it in a loved one.
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Babi,
What a sad story about Charles Lamb and his sister Mary. Virtually all I knew about Lamb is that he wrote essays under the name of Elias. I wonder what kind of madness afflicted Mary, that could keep recurring, but leave her sane and normal in-between episodes? “….she herself could tell when the madness was coming on, and could do nothing to stop its coming.” What a terrible thing to live with, whether it’s happening to oneself, or you are seeing it in a loved one.
Yes, indeed it is sad. My daughter suffers from Bi Polar/Manic Depression. It did not manifest until she was in her early 20's. For years the doctors could not find the right meds to help her be able to live comfortably in mainstream life. Now, thank God, she is able to drive again and manage to do her every day chores etc. I fear she may never be able to hold down a job due to this illness. It sounds so much like Charles Lamb's description of his sister/mother and himself. Back then there were no diagnosis or names, and lack of knowledge in how to treat mental illnesses. They generally suffered in the privacy of their own home, and kept from others so they would not harm anyone, or they were locked up in a state hospital sedated, so they would not do harm to themself or others. If my daughter misses any dose of her medication, we are able to notice and get her back on track. I did extensive research once her psychiatrist met with me, and I learned that there were many well known artists, authors, poets, singers, actors, etc. that suffered with this disease. Today, I am thankful for the medications and knowledge, that allows these people to live as normal a life as possible. Some more than others. She lives in Florida and is married and their marriage suffered for a few years due to this illness, and so she had to come to live with us. It is a huge responsibility to care for someone with this illness, because they tend to feel better and decide they no longer need their medication. Combative, impulsiveness and paranoia seem to be symptomatic. Violence has been known to also be present in some going through an episode. This is a genetic disease that a person is born with and it may never manifest in their lifetime. The average age it does manifest is the early 20's, but people can be symptomatic at a very early age and it go unnoticed, especially in the teen years when one may show signs of rebellion, disruptive behavior, lack of responsibleness, etc. I personally have not had any symptoms, but can surely trace it back in my family through generations.
I did notice in Charles Lamb's essay that he did have his sister admitted for a time and he wrote to her and visited her and then she was able to come live with him. My daughter had to be hospitalized for a few months when this manifested due to the violent tendency and confusion. She too, could tell when an episode was coming on. It was apparent to me after spending close time with her, when she was about to experience an episode. I truly thought I would have a nervous break down the short time she lived in my home, while we were trying to get her the right medications and help to assist her to have an apartment near us, after she got out of the hospital. I thank God she is doing well now. We speak every day on the phone. The most endearing thing I can share through her worst times, was she was able to stay mentally connected to me. When no one else could reach her physic, she was able to communicate to me. What a miracle that was for me and her. Sorry to ramble on.
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Babi,
I only know about Charles Lamb and his psuedo-name, Elias, because for a long time, it was always in crossword puzzles when I was younger.
While we are still speaking of Adelaide, don't you love her signature in her letter to Juliet??? "Yours in In Christian Consternation and Concern"? Hard to believe she thought she was being kind and concerned.
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Thunderstorms here. Callie, I’ll believe you when you say 3 miles is a long way off, but it sounds close to me. Glad you are okay. And thank you for the up-tick on Enchanted April. I got it taped, and am glad to see it has captions. And if you missed it, it apparently is not out on DVD yet, but Netflix has it in it’s “Save” list.
ps - and I thought Mark superficial right from the get go.
from MarjV
And I’ll be he never eats hot dogs, either
A sausage—how appetizing
Suzette, at 8:00?
love, M.
So success under pressure and tragedy. Can this be the lesson we are to learn for the choice of Charles Lamb or was the author chosen on a whim by Shaffer?
from Jude
Jude, I don’t know much about Charles Lamb, but I don’t thingk Mary Ann Shaffer did anything on a whim. Have we said this before – Charles Lamb is the lure, the connector, the catalyst that started alll this. We know Dawsey liked the roast pig, and Juliet’s favorite line was buzz buzz buzz, bum, bum, bum. . .. . And now here’s Christian saying about Lamb, “He was not a man to mind a little damp,” and laughing at the time because both he and Dawsey were soaking wet. So where it that line from?
Annie, glad to see you here, but some of you are giving me a complex about my shelves throughout the house.
N, I do love your method of shelving (and stacking) books. Much like mine, but probably a little neater, although I do have one (narrow) shelf of unread books, and one shelf devoted to cookbooks. And two car books. The link was delightful as well as helpful, and certainly is indicative of how our reading expands our horizons.
JoanP – spices in alphabetical order!! ‘Fraid not here. Do you date them? I do try to do that, and cans also.
Bellamarie, thank you for sharing your concerns about your daughter (and the parallels with Mary Lamb) I’m glad you were able to get help for her, and hope that she will continue to do well.
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Is Mary Ann making us consider the complications in male/female relationships?
She's making me furious at Juliet - altho maybe because i can see in her the mistakes i have made at various times in relationships.
In her 20th April letter to Isola Juliet writes that "I'm far more afraid of chickens than i am of men, so i wrote about that..........................." Is she? Because at the end of the letter she writes "I suppose i do have a suitor, but i'm not really used to him yet. He's terribly charming and he plies me w/ delicious meals, but i sometimes think i prefer suitors in books rather than right in front of me" (similar to what Isola said in her 19th Feb letter "men are more interesting in books than they are in real life.") J continues, "How awful, backward, cowardly and mentally warped that will be if it turns out to be true." I wanted to smack her right there................charm and dinners does not a husband make!
But THEN i got to her letter to Sophie of 1st May! AARRGGGHHH! In a couple hours, Mark gives her a dozen clues as to why she should run as fast as she can from his proposal - not necessarily from him - YET - but maybe after another dinner or two! .........How often when in lust we dismiss the clues that tell us who a person really is.............we love to dream of how we can explain to him how we feel and our relationship will change to the ideal picture that we have because of the explanation and his "understanding" our explanation. :P
J says "he's absolutely FURIOUS because i didn't give him an unequivocal yes. (clue #1) I tried to explain that i hadn't known h im long enough and i needed time to think, but he WOULDN'T LISTEN to me (BIG clue # 2). He was CERTAIN that i was rejecting him because of a SECRET PASSION (#3) -for Sidney! They really are OBSESSED(#4) w/ one another, those two."
J continuing - ....he began SHOUTING (etc.) about S and godforsaken islands and WOMEN (etc. - you get the point) who care more about a PASSEL of strangers than men who are right in front of them. .............i KEPT trying to explain and he KEPT shouting until i began to CRY FROM FRUSTRATION. Then he felt remoreseful, .........which was so unlike him ( how does she know that's unlike him?) and endearing (?) that i almost changed my mind and said yes! ??? ........We argued and he LECTURED and i WEPT ........he leaned in to kiss me and siad, 'You're an IDIOT, Juliet.'".....................AND THEN SHE REALLY MAKES ME POUND THE TABLE........."And maybe he's right!?!?!" NO! NO! NO! ................................how can we so often negate what is right in front of us and cloud it over w/ self-denigration and romaniticsm of "it will be o.k.?" She's missed all the clues of who Mark really is and is not likely to change.........................
o.k., my rant is over, but if J continues along this line, i may have to throw the book across the room.................... ;D ;D ;D..........................jean
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Bellamarie: thank you for sharing. We all feel with you. Most of us have known the pain of watching a child suffer and being unable to "make it go away".
JEAN: you hit the nail on the head! And (I can't find who said it, sorry) that it would be lovely to be picked up by him if you fell off a horse, but she doesn't intend to fall off a horse. Exactly!
Getting angry when she asks to think about his proposal is different from the other man getting angry when she dumps him the day before their wedding. In the "dumping" case, she is going back on a commitment. But Mark is assuming that because he wants her to commit, she must do it. He probably thinks he has "bought" her with all those expensive dinners. He is not really treating her as a human being with ideas, interests emotions of her own, but as an expensive doll that he will buy to satisfy his own needs. If she marries him, he will continue to treat her this way.
Also, this kind of possessiveness and jealousy of any outside relationships she has is typical of wife abusers. After marriage, they manage to isolate their wives from any outside relationships with their jealousy, and make them completely dependent on their husband. Then they tear down the wife' self esteem, until she believes that she can't survive without him. This is part of why it is so difficult for women to leave abusive relationships.
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Babi,
I think your quote picks up a key point, when Juliet says: "but I don't think I'm likely to fall of a horse any time soon." To me, that is saying that she is not some helpless female who would be happy to let a husband run her life. And Mark does show signs of intending to run her life.
Interesting thought Babi. I saw, falling off a horse as, falling hopelessly in love, in which she was admitting she is not about to do anytime soon, but if she would, Mark would be the one she would like to pick her up, (sweep her off her feet/ fall in love with.)
Jude, ......... I don't think Mary Ann Shaffer did anything on a whim.
I am certain, Mary Ann Shaffer did not do anything on a whim, when writing this book. Everything means something, and every person has a purpose for why she connected and mentioned the books and authors to them. Imagine just an ordinary person with little to no background in classic works, (like me) reading this book alone. I can't believe all that they/me, would be missing out on.
JoanK and Pedln, Thank you for your kind words.
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mabel1015j
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I seriously thought I was the only one who could be so furious with Juliet. I am just as furious with her as you are for other reasons. I said earlier, I felt Mary Ann was not making this believable. Its like we are to see Juliet as this 33 yr. old, strong, independent, career woman, yet she is so wishy washy when it comes to relationships. She even has so much arrogance to think Sidney was not writing to her, because he was jealous of her dating Mark, when all along he was hurt. She was so full of herself, she didn't stop to consider if he was ok. My first reaction when Sidney was not writing, was as I posted, "Is Sidney okay?" In the very beginning of the book I was all excited and saw Juliet through my excitement. As I read more and more pages, I began seeing her in a complete different light.
So, what is her true motivation for "adopting" the Guernsey Literary Society and these wonderful people? We shall see.
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JoanK , Whoaaaaaaa....With all due respect, I think you are reading way too much into all of this. Juliet LOVES being treated this way. She is like a water faucet, hot and cold, on and off. I feel some of you are NOT reading what Juliet is saying. She compliments these two men she broke up with. She admits she is the one who has the issues.
What I am beginning to see in people's views, where Juliet and her relationships are concerned, is that each are posting from personal experiences.
Now, for me I have been happily married for 38 yrs. I have my Prince Charming and we are still in love, as much today as the day we married. We have grown and accepted each other has flaws, and at times we are selfish and other times selfless in our relationship. All men, who claim the book shelf, or that wine and dine you and want you to put them first when proposing, are not abusive, controlling, jealous, insensitive, etc., etc. I am a bit shocked at how some have reacted so strongly against the two men Juliet has dated and broken up with. They did NOT mistreat her in any way. They may have been inconsiderate, selfish, and assumed they knew her, but then she has her flaws as well. She takes blame, for her part, in the break ups. She does not bash either of the men, on the contrary she says, if she were ready to fall off a horse, (fall in love), Mark is the one she would want to pick her up. She admitted Rob was better off without her. She gave high praise about these two men.
I have to admit, Mary Ann Shaffer/ Juliet, sure has brought out the spirit in us. lol
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It seems we are all ready to agree that MA Shaffer did nothing on a whim, Jude.
Everything means something, and every person has a purpose for why she connected and mentioned the books and authors to them.
So far, it seems that Bellamarie has summed it up just right. If so, we will probably find in due time what she is trying to portray in Mark's character. Right now, we just have bits and pierces - I don't hear Juliet is saying anything positive about him in her letters. How is Shaffer expecting us to react when she tucks in little innuendos..."not a man to cross" - "thin smile" - Ominous? And then -
She's missed all the clues of who Mark really is and is not likely to change..
Jean, I don't think you need to throw the book across the room - it looks like Juliet is getting out of town before they have any further conversation!
I was interested his reading preferences - Dos Passos and (I can't remember the other author, can you? ) If it's true MA Shaffer has a reason for every reference, what to you think she is saying with Mark and Dos Possos? Who was that other author Mark likes! I've flipped pages for the last 20 minutes looking for his name!
Jean, I'm not sure what you mean about Juliet's "true motivation"? Perhaps she is just looking for material for a book - and you suspect she really doesn't care about all these people that she claims she loves? I don't see that, but we shall see...
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Joan - that wasn't me -"true motivation" ? .............that was Bellemarie.....
Bellemarie, you don't think that being "furious," "shouting," calling J an "idiot" is not mistreatment? .................there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently"........................it read - to me - like he meant it..............not a good basis for a successful relationship IMO. Even if "she has flaws as well" that's unacceptable treatment from my perspective............
I do see myself in Juliet. In my 30's I was sometimes a strong, independent business woman, but at other times - particularly in my relationships - i was confused and didn't see things as well as i did when i looked back on them..............where do we get lessons on relationships? My parents were very stoic, i don't think i'd ever had a conversation w/ anybody about how men and women relate to each other even by the time i was in my 30's. Every thing i had seen in other's relationships was a very superficial picture of what was going on. And even tho at that point i would have considered myself a feminist and believed in equality of the sexes, intellectually, i acted as tho i tho't men knew what they were doing, and somehow had the upper hand............it took me a couple more decades to figure out how wrong i was in that thinking..........................It's obvious that JUliet had even fewer lessons on relationships than i had........................jean
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Aha! thank you, Jean. There were so many posts today while I was out, please forgive my missing that.
It's obvious that JUliet had even fewer lessons on relationships
Jean, I agree - we need to remember that Juliet lost her parents during early adolescence and had very little guidance or example when it came to relationships.
Charles Lamb is the lure, the connector, the catalyst that started all this.
Pedln, I had been thinking of Elizabeth as the "connector" - but am willing to consider Lamb in this light since you brought it up.
I spent some time this afternoon reading his biography. Found some information that should be of interest to us now. Bellamarie, I am so sorry your daughter has to suffer from Bi Polar/Manic Depression. Hopefully medication can control this? Is this what Mary Lamb was suffering from, do you think? Perhaps there was no diagnosis at the time.
Here is a detailed description of of the day Mary Lamb was overcome and killed their mother. It makes the episode a bit more understandable, in context. -
Elizabeth Lamb, the mother, became an invalid at a comparatively young age; the only surviving daughter, Mary, bore the household chores15, much alone. In addition to caring for her ill mother, in between times, Mary did needle work to help with the household bills.
...I don't know that it can be said that madness ran in the Lamb Family, maybe. We know about the madness of Mary. Charles, too, was mad, viz., insanity characterized by wild excitement or extravagant delusions.
...Mary was, it will be recalled eleven years older than her brother, Charles. It will be remembered too, that I mentioned that most all of the domestic affairs of the Lamb Family settled on the shoulders of young Mary, the only girl to survived more than a couple of years. Her mother was of no help, as she was invalided at a comparatively young age. Mary worked, we can be sure in saying, night and day carrying out the numerous chores of both the Lamb household
..."On Friday afternoon the Coroner and Jury sat on the body of a Lady, in the neighbourhood of Holborn, who died in consequence of a wound from her daughter the preceding day.
It appeared by the evidence adduced, that while the family were preparing for dinner, the young lady seized a case-knife laying on the table, and in a menacing manner pursued a little girl, her apprentice, round the room. On the calls of her infirm mother to forbear, she renounced her first object, and with loud shrieks approached her parent. The child, by her cries, quickly brought up the landlord of the house, but too late. The dreadful scene presented to him the mother lifeless, pierced to the heart, on a chair, her daughter yet wildly standing over her with the fatal knife, and the old man her father weeping by her side, himself bleeding at the forehead from the effects of a severe blow he received from one of the forks she had been madly hurling about the room."
Biography, Charles Lamb (http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Literary/Lamb.htm)
One more bit of information that illustrates Shaffer's attention to detail. Do you wonder at some to the names in the book - unlike names we are used to reading - Dawsey - Isola Pribby...etc. I have been thinking about the names since the beginniing and look here, just look here!
"In 1823 Charles and Mary met and eventually adopted an orphan girl, Emma Isola. In August the Lambs moved from London for the first time, to Islington and then to Enfield. Charles's health was weakening, and a long illness during the winter of 1824 led him to retire permanently from the East India Company. He now occupied his time with walking trips around Hertfordshire with Emma Isola[/b]. Charles Lamb, a biography (http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-lamb)
Now, let's try to figure out how Dawsey Adams was matched with Charles Lamb! I have an idea, but maybe I'm going to far afield. Would like to hear from you!
ps. I missed the movie, fell asleep. Dang...I really wanted to see it! Bruce ordered it for me from Netflix this morning.
pps My spice jars are still placed to my own liking - those for baking together, those for seasoning, those most frequently used... Ann, I did admire Ralph's neat workshop - and I'm sure you love your spice rack. I'm a Gemini - that's my excuse!
ppps - Babi, Ann, they still use Lamb's pen name in crossword puzzles...but it's a four letter word! If anyone can find the reason he chose this name, you will win a prize!
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I just finished a long post which mysteriously disappeare. Oh well, I will try to recall most of what I wrote. This post is linking John Booker, Seneca and their signifacance to the GLPPPS.
Seneca was the epitomy of the Stoic philosophy which preached the following:
The universe is governed for the best by a rational providence, contentedness is acheived by a simple , unperturbed life in accordance with nature and duty to the state. Human suffering should be accepted and has a posiitive on the soul.
Examples of three of his sayings:
1)As longas you live, keep learning how to live.
2)A man is as miserable as he thinks he is.
3)Brave men rejoice in adversity, just as brave soldiers triumph in war.
Very nice, eh? Well, inreal life Seneca did not follow his own precepts. He had numerous illicit affairs,gathered immense wealth and meddled in all sorts of affairs of state including helping Nero kill his mother. His life ended by an order of the Emperor to commit suicide which he did after a number of unsuccessful attempts.
Now John Booker was an Alcoholic and he was using these principles as a way to cure his Alcoholism .(Alcoholics Anonymous wasn't available to him at the time.).
Although they were helpful to him he began to bore the other memebers who were not fighting an addiction and didn't need to be constantly reminded how to live their lives under German Occupation. Thank goodness John had a sense of humor ,( which we see in his letters) that made him bearable.
Shaffer, in this case showed how one book alone can help a specific type of person with a specific problem. How ever this reading of one book , over and over, helped John Booker overcome his Alcoholism and begin to experience life with a clearer sense of self.
Jude
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Neatness is not one of my qualities, but my spice rack is alphabetized. This is a matter of self defense; there are too many to handle any other way. I have a rack along the back of a kitchen counter that holds a double row of spices, and they're all alphabetized except for a small nest of curry spices and a handful of peppers. Any other arrangement, and it would take forever to find anything. I date them, and try to get new bottles at appropriate intervals. www.penzeys.com (http://www.penzeys.com) sells good, fresh spices in smaller bottles than you can get in the supermarkets.
My books are arranged in a way best described as a combination of historic and geographic, (meaning purchase date or where you would want to use it or where there was still some room), and I'm probably the only one who can usually locate a book.
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Since you are all talking about your books, spices and "stuff" i'll mention a new book i picked up at the library. It's titled "Snoop: what your stuff says about you." The author is a Phd in psychology and he's spent yrs studying what you can tell about yourself or others when looking at what's in their offices or in your living rm, bedrm, let alone your bathroom medicine cabinet...............i saw it and tho't it would be a fun read.........i'll let you know......................especially you folks who alphabetize everything - of course, being a student of the Myers/Briggs Personality Instrument - I already know soooomethiiiing about yooooou....................woooooohooooo....................jean
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I haven't actually seen one character in particular as "the connector." I see humanness, kindness, war, literature, love, friendship, honesty, loyalty, poverty, death, and the need for one another as the connector, or rather "connection".
I love how Mary Ann, has very possibly taken all her favorite poets, books, essays, poems and quotes and connected them to each of her characters. So its no wonder she would draw from some of these writings, and name and fashion her characters after them. Since she worked in a bookstore, she loved books, and was so well versed in knowledge of the classics, she had to find great delight in showing off her knowledge, in writing such a book where she could showcase it, while telling a story.
Keep in mind an ordinary reader would not be as familiar with all of these famous names and writings. Like I said before, if I would have picked this book up, and read it by myself, there is no way in the world I would have gone on this fantastic journey of knowledge, as I have with all of you. So she had to attract the average reader with love, romance, conflict, quirkiness, war, controversy, etc.
The book has been sold out in the bookstores, on long waiting lists at the library and I am certain will hit #1 on the best sellers list. Consider the small intro you see wherever you read about the book: The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society begins in January 1946, when popular author Juliet Ashton, much like her fellow British citizens, is emerging from the dark days of World War II. As Juliet exchanges a series of letters with her publisher and her best friend, readers immediately warm to this author in search of a new subject in the aftermath of war.
What in that intro has gotten people to swarm to the stores and libraries to read it? Why now? Why are so many people feeling the need to connect with this book? The title is so very strange, I could barely remember it when I told family and friends I was going to read it. Are we ready for "a new subject in the aftermath of our war?" In the world today, of uncertainty, people seem to be looking for unity, change, and hope, is that not what this book is offering? Not to overlook the fact it is highly entertaining. lolol
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Jean,
Bellemarie, you don't think that being "furious," "shouting," calling J an "idiot" is not mistreatment? .................there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently"........................it read - to me - like he meant it..............not a good basis for a successful relationship IMO. Even if "she has flaws as well" that's unacceptable treatment from my perspective............
I have already mentioned, in all fairness, Mark was angry, due to the fact he was hurt from being rejected. The best of relationships can have fights and people can say things when they are angry, they would love to take back once they have cooled down. That is why we have apologies and forgiveness. I myself have learned over the years, to retire to my own space when angry so as not to say hurtful things when angry or hurt. A cooler head prevails. It took me some years of maturity to learn this.
Jean, "there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently
pg. 133 "As he shut met into the back seat, he leaned in to kiss me and said, "You're an idiot, Juliet." And maybe he's right."
I think at the time he said this, he was very sad and quiet. He leaned in to kiss her, and I sense it was not a shout, but a whisper of regret, they were breaking up. I truly believe Mark loved her as did Rob. She just was not able to return their affections or committ to marriage. So the break ups were necessary.
I am a bit exhausted in defending Rob and Mark. So at this point I am going to respectfully, agree to disagree with those of you who see the men and break ups as abusive, uncaring, and unloving. I'm not even sure Mary Ann would have intended so much attention given to these areas, because each time, she has Juliet giving praise to the men after the break up.
As far as Juliet lacking in relationships, I did not get that impression, on the contrary, on pg. 8 Juliet says, "I swear Sophie, I think there's something wrong with me. Every man I meet is intolerable. Perhaps I should set my sights lower_......I can't even blame it on the war_ I was never very good at men, was I? Do you suppose the St. Swotjom's furnace-man was my one true love? Since I never spoke to him, it seems unlikely, but at least it was a passion unscathed by disappointment.....After that, you remember, came the Year of Poets. Then poor Adrian. Oh, there's no need to recite the dread rolls to you, but Sophie_what is the matter with me?"
Unattainable love??? We shall see. ;)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 8-14 Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
1. How do you envision the Literary Society meetings now that we are hearing from more members? How has the Literary Society grown from the original six? Which members do you find interesting?
2. Is there a deeper meaning to the various characters' choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book? (Jude)
3. "I did not want to spend my time reading about people who never was, doing things they never did." (Clovis Fossey) Do you know people who feel this way about fiction? How did the busy farmer become interested in poetry? When was the last time you memorized a poem?
4. Why is Adelaide Addison so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondance with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
5. How is Juliet's correspondance with the Guernsey Literary Society affecting her relationship with Mark? Do you sense that Sidney is more than just a big brother friend? (Who is Piers?)
6. Why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers? How do they communicate? What did they have in common?
7. To whom does the Jewish John Booker owe his survival during the occupation? What drew him to the the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)?
8. What gruesome information does Juliet's research reveal about events and conditions on the islands during the occupation? Why does she decide she must go to Guernsey?
9. Will you share your underlining, your notes on this week's letters; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
Bellamarie:
JoanP, Who was that other author Mark likes? I've flipped pages for the last 20 minutes looking for his name!
pg.86 Dos Passos and Hemmingway.
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I can see why Mary Ann would choose Dos Passos and Hemingway to be Mark's favorite. They write on things he would be most interested in and much like the personality of Mark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dos_Passos
Dos Passos' pioneering works of nonlinear fiction were a major influence in the field. In particular Alfred Döblin's Berlin Alexanderplatz and Jean-Paul Sartre's The Roads To Freedom trilogy show the influence of his methods. In an often cited 1936 essay, Sartre referred to Dos Passos as "the greatest writer of our time". Perhaps the best-known work partaking of the cut-up technique found in U.S.A. is science fiction writer John Brunner's Hugo Award-winning 1968 "non-novel" Stand on Zanzibar, in which Brunner makes use of fictitious newspaper clippings, television announcements, and other "samples" taken from the news and entertainment media of the year 2010. Joe Haldeman's novel Mindbridge also uses the cut-up technique, as does his short story, "To Howard Hughes: A Modest Proposal".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway
an American novelist, short-story writer, and journalist. He was part of the 1920s expatriate community in Paris, and one of the veterans of World War I later known as "the Lost Generation". He received the Pulitzer Prize in 1953 for The Old Man and the Sea, and the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1954.
Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement, and had a significant influence on the development of twentieth-century fiction writing. His protagonists are typically stoical men who exhibit an ideal described as "grace under pressure". Many of his works are now considered classics of American literature.
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Perhaps, I am mentioning this too soon, but has anyone noticed that the life stories of Juliet and Elizabeth are parallel? They both lost their parents or in Elizabeth's case, lost her mother at a very early age. They both were raised by or cared for by men who were more involved in their own lives. I liked Elizabeth's man the best as I thought he really did try to make her life more family like. Taking her to Guernsey for the summer while she was maturing. What a delightful little scamp she was. And, when she immediately found an excuse for the small group of curfew breakers caught by the German gendarme, I cheered for her. She has always had to be on her toes since no one seems to have reined her in. She must have heard all kinds of things about the island folk when she went to see with the "rough" men to fish. And, children who sort of live on their own seem to be always able to make up excuses quickly.
And another comparison, Juliet and Elizabeth both had best friends. For Juliet it was Sophie and for Elizabeth, it was Jane.
I started another book about books and authors and its a simple read. I can hear the accents of these people and am beginning to apply them to our book. Of course, its all in English! My new book is another of M.C. Beaton's Hamish MacBeth sagas. Humorous, comical and mysterious. Hamish has a new dog who has short legs, describes like the Westminster winner on Tuesday night.
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It's interesting that Mark's two favorite authors are Dos Passos and Hemingway and I found this quote while searching for info on Dos Passos.
" In a blurb for a European edition, Ernest Hemingway wrote that, alone among American writers, Dos Passos has "been able to show to Europeans the America they really find when they come here."
I think Mark's choices, were an indication, he was a man ahead of his times.
AdoAnnie, It is not at all too soon to point out their similarities, I believe many posts back we were questioning if Elizabeth/Juliet/Mary Ann Shaffer, were one in the same. This book is proving to be an array of puzzle pieces. I think of all the large puzzles I tackled over the years, and how I was so sure a piece fit, only to find out it was just a jutted edge off and was not the right piece, no matter how many times I turned it and tried prying it in place. That is how I feel about reading this book, just when I think I may have something figured out, a jutted piece shows me it does not fit. Just when I feel comfortable with what I think I figured out, JoanP throws out a question that sends me into a tizzy. lolol I don't think I've had so much fun, reading a book.
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I guess I am being simplistic( if that isnt a word, it should be). Juliet just strikes me as the type of woman who loves to pretend to be independent and bold.. But and this is a big BUT,, she tends to let herself fall into traps with the type of male, who is handsome, charming but very much in charge. She really needs a different type of male and for some reason does it to herself all the time. I actually have known several women who carried this to an extreme.. I even have a male friend who married five times, because he kept marrying women who were childish and then when they grew up, he wanted out..
I love Eben and his quotes.. He quote Eli.."LOnesome in my spirits" and that hit home. I have moved a good deal in my life and I know that feeling.
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Thanks, Bella, for your answer.
Since I have been assigned the very end of the dining room table for my computering while we are working a 39" X 19" puzzle on the other 3/4's of the table, you couldn't have used a better comparison of books an d puzzles.
I want to mention that we have an old SN member on S&F's sight who lived through the war. She has told me many stories of her and her husband's lives. Maybe I should ask her to come in here and comment. I am not sure if she will. Her name is Gladys and she is true good friend to all of us. I believe she has also been here as long as we have and I know that she has attended many of our book bashes. Quite a dancer at the grand age of 85!!
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Good morning, Chicks!
So many good thoughts posted here - where to begin?
Jude - oh yes, the link with John Booker to Seneca becomes very clear with the added information about Seneca. Thank you for your thoughtful post - and conclusion -
Shaffer, in this case showed how one book alone can help a specific type of person with a specific problem. How ever this reading of one book , over and over, helped John Booker overcome his Alcoholism and begin to experience life with a clearer sense of self.
It is facinating watching Mary Ann Shaffer put this book together,
I'm enjoying this almost as I am the story itself.
Hemingway - yes, that's it. Thanks for this - and for your reserach, Bellamarie. Does Juliet react when she learns that Hemingway and Dos Passos are Mark's favorite writers? Those authors are not on her list of favs, are they? By the way, what is Mark doing in London? Is he an expatriot? Is he just there for business? Would he really want to take our Juliet to live in NY?
Annie, aren't the similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth striking? Especially now that Juliet is becoming so involved with the literary society - the little circle that Elizabeth had created. I sense that not only are they similar, but that Juliet is stepping into Elizabeth's place in the story, in the hearts of the Guernsians. Do you feel that?
Ann, would you invite dear Gladys. That would be wonderful. I wonder if she's heard of this book? Even without the book, she would certainly have much to add to our discussion. She is a Brit, do I remember correctly?
Steph - Your post yesterday about Dawsey and his description of Christian Hellman reminded me of another link to Charles Lamb. Dawsey lent him Juliet's copy of Lamb's essays, which we know was in English. The German must have been able to read English then? So Christian Hellman loved to read CHarles Lamb. What is Mary Ann Shaffer saying here? Is she purposely linking Dawsey and Hellman?
Off to babysit littel granddaughter - back later, probably exhausted...
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Good morning, Chicks!
So many good thoughts posted here - where to begin?
Jude - oh yes, the link with John Booker to Seneca becomes very clear with the added information about Seneca. Thank you for your thoughtful post - and conclusion -
Shaffer, in this case showed how one book alone can help a specific type of person with a specific problem. How ever this reading of one book , over and over, helped John Booker overcome his Alcoholism and begin to experience life with a clearer sense of self.
It is just fascinating watching Mary Ann Shaffer put this book together.
I'm enjoying this almost as I am the story itself.
Hemingway - yes, that's it. Thanks for this - and for your research, Bellamarie. You win the prize! Does Juliet react when she learns that Hemingway and Dos Passos are Mark's favorite writers? Those authors are not on her list of favs, are they? By the way, what is Mark doing in London? Is he an ex patriot? Is he just there for business? Would he really want to take our Juliet to live in NY?
Annie, aren't the similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth striking? Especially now that Juliet is becoming so involved with the literary society - the little circle that Elizabeth had created. I sense that not only are they similar, but that Juliet is stepping into Elizabeth's place in the story, in the hearts of the Guernsians. Do you feel that?
Ann, would you invite dear Gladys. That would be wonderful. I wonder if she's heard of this book? Even without the book, she would certainly have much to add to our discussion. She is a Brit, do I remember correctly?
Steph - Your post yesterday about Dawsey and his description of Christian Hellman reminded me of another link to Charles Lamb. Dawsey lent him Juliet's copy of Lamb's essays, which we know was in English. The German must have been able to read English then? So Christian Hellman loved to read Charles Lamb. What is Mary Ann Shaffer saying here? Is she purposely linking Dawsey and Hellman?
Off to babysit little toddler granddaughter - back later, probably exhausted...she's into everything!
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JoanP,
I sense that not only are they similar, but that Juliet is stepping into Elizabeth's place in the story, in the hearts of the Guernsians. Do you feel that?
I most certainly feel Juliet is coming to Guernsey, and will be stepping into Elizabeth's place. I also feel and fear, Elizabeth will not be returning to Guernsey. As sad as it may turn out to be, I'm sensing they will be getting some bad news and Juliet's presence will help them deal with the loss. I hope I am all wrong, and this puzzle piece does not fit.
I am finding all kinds of parallels between Dos Passos/Hemingway and Mark. I am more convinced then ever, Mary Ann fashioned her characters in this book from her favorite classical authors. Imagine the fun she had in doing this.
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By the way, what is Mark doing in London? Is he an expatriot? Is he just there for business? Would he really want to take our Juliet to live in NY?
from JoanP
Mark is a magazine publisher and is in London to open another office, and of course we know that Sidney is afraid he’ll dine, wine, and woo Juliet away from Stephens and Stark.
Oh my, we have been going hot and heavy here – are we taking sides here? About Mark, good guy or bad guy, Juliet – does she know what she wants?, shelf space -- organized OR not, spices – oh my goodness, I’ve learned a lot these past few days. Surely not everyone alphabetizes their spices. But I agree with PatH, that Penzey’s is a lovely place, just to go in and smell. And I’ve sent their gifts from online. My only regret is I came to learn about them so late in life, when I’m not doing as much cooking as before. But I get their catalog and clip those recipes every month.
we need to remember that Juliet lost her parents during early adolescence and had very little guidance or example when it came to relationships.
from JoanP and Jean
. . . and also she doesn’t see her closest friend on a daily basis – whatever advice or comments come in letters from Sophie. How she must have wanted to talk with Sophie RIGHT NOW after that dreadful scene with the yelling and crying.
Jean, that Snoop sounds like a fun book. But what is the Myers/Briggs Personality Instrument? Should we be worried?
Re: Catalyst, connector – Elizabeth was definitely the catalyst for the GLPPS. It would not have existed without her. But I hold that Charles Lamb is the catalyst for Juliet’s interest in this group and her possible trip to Guernsey. If it had not been her name and address on Dawsey’s copy of Essays by Elia there woul.d be no story.
Janice, I hope you're still with us. What number are you now?
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Bellamarie said Like I said before, if I would have picked this book up, and read it by myself, there is no way in the world I would have gone on this fantastic journey of knowledge, as I have with all of you.. That's the thing i like best about SN, SandL and SandF. Everyone brings their expertise and interests to the site. It's like being in a college classroom w/out having to take tests - just FUN!
Anna and Joan - good points about Elizabeth and Juliet.
Pedin - Myers/Briggs, and its many copy-cats, is an instrument that asks about 70 forced choice questions about what you prefer in your life. i.e. - while at a party do you talk to everybody and want to stay all night, or do you sit in the corner and observe.................that's not an exact question, but an ex. .......... also an ex. - do you prefer to have exact directions of how to do a task, or only guidlines that allows you to decide how to proceed.............. or, is it better to be right, or compassionate............etc. Then when you put the answers on an answer sheet and add them up you get a profile - are you an extravert/introvert, a person who learns things thru you senses or thru your intuition, a person who brings mostly intellect or feelings to the situation, a person who likes to keep your options open, or one who likes rules, laws, and an empty in-box - or, alphabetizes your spices/have your Christmas presents bought in June/ LOVES lists that you can cross off w/ a sense of accomplishment.
Myers/Briggs - a mother/dgt team, put it together and talk of the "gifts" that we all bring, regardless of which preferences we have, because all of these preferences are important to workforces, families, relationships, etc. We should all appreciate each others gifts and not expect that everyone should be and behave like us......................another book that talks about these "types" is Please Understand Me, which makes the types easier to understand than some descriptions of Myers/Briggs do. You can find the instrument on the web and find out for yourself, what your preferences are...........................maybe Robby can provide a better description than i have.
I'll try to find a site...................it's fun stuff and can be helpful in working/living w/ others. It provides an understanding that other people are not doing things TO you, but are acting out of their own preferences - like somebody's spouse rearranging books/spices to make themselves comfortable. ;) ;) ;) .............jean
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http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
This is one site where you can take a Myers/Briggs type "test" The husband/wife team who wrote Please Understand Me is Keirsey, there books are still in the warehouses, if not in the bookstores...........jean
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Jean, that web site and its links are very interesting - and accurately analyzed me. Amazing.
Has anyone mentioned that Juliette's residence - with all her books, etc. - was destroyed by a bomb? She seems amazingly resilient after having that happen to her.
She seems to be the type of person who needs someone to talk to about emotional events in her life. Female best friend is married and far away, male best friend is out of the country. Mark isn't interested in that type of conversation. Her new friends on Guernsey are becoming her confidantes and she is becoming theirs.
I wonder if and how that will change when they actually meet.
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The third member of the GLPPPS I will try to analyse according to Literary tastes and their letters is clovis. He who loves WW1 poetry and William Wordsworth.
My first love of poetry arose out of the same sources. I learned by heart so many of them. My all time favorite , over which I still tear up when I think of it, is "In Flanders Fields". Here are the first two verses.
In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky,
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
As we discuss the boook i feel that we get caught up in the relationships of the main characters. Clovis and his poetry are included to remind us of the horrors of TWO WARS England has passed through.
Lest we forget, lest we forget.
Jude
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Okay ladies, I am very excited. I have just emailed Annie Barrows and invited her to drop in on our book club. She has said that she answers "ALL" her emails, so I will patiently await for a response. In the meantime, let's keep a close watch out to see if she would drop in. I told her Juliet and her break up with Rob and Markham has spurred on some spirited conversations. lolol I will share any response I may receive.
Jean, Wow!, you have me ready to visit that web site just to find out what it says about me. lolol
That's the thing i like best about SN, SandL and SandF. Everyone brings their expertise and interests to the site. It's like being in a college classroom w/out having to take tests - just FUN!
This is exactly how I describe it to my husband, and daughter in laws. They keep asking me what is happening next. lolol
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BELLAMARIE: I couldn't agree more that it's time to let go the question of what Mark is like --- we will probably find out more later.
I do, have to point out that my remarks about abusive men had nothing to do with my husband. We had 50 years of a wonderful marraige and I miss him every day.
But I did have a close friend whose daughter was in an abusive relationship for years, and shared with me her sorrow and frustration at watching this, and being unable to get her daughter to leave. The relationship didn't end until the man left. Because of this experience, I became more familiar with the cycles of such a relationship. That Mark might prove abusive was a fear, ratherr than a guess. In any case, we know enough to know that he is controlling and expects Juliet to do what HE wants.
I didn't mean these remarks to refer to the first boyfriend at all. We know his tastes are different from Juliet's, which is certainly not a crime (I like sports, too) although it bodes ill for the marraige, and was oblivious to Juliet's needs and feelings on this occasion. But that's all we know.
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I took the test and it was dead on!!!! lolololol Thank you, Jean
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Bellamarie, I've written to Annie too, inviting her into the discussion. How can she resist? ;D I suspect she may be overwhelmed with mail and interviews right now, though.
Jean, I know companies that require prospective employees take the Meyers Briggs test. What do you think of that? It's amazing that we are viewing Juliet as a living, breathing human being - do you wonder how she would do on the test? I'm thinking more and more that Mary Ann Shaffer has portrayed herself in Juliet, which is why she knows her so well.
I haven't spent time yet, finding out if Shaffer visited Guernsey while writing this book. I know she was there back in 1976, but the details, the descriptions tell me that she was there more recently than that...
Callie, that's an interesting question - will Juliet be able to communicate with the islanders in person as well as she does in her letters. SHe does seem to have a problem face to face, doesn't she?
Jude, I remember memorizing Flander's Field! Are you one of those people who remembers words to songs, or poetry without lots and lots of memorizing? I am - but once I do, I never forget. That's something anyway.
Am on the way out the door, husband looking at watch, impatiently. Hates to be late.
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Joan,
I've written to Annie too, inviting her into the discussion. How can she resist? I suspect she may be overwhelmed with mail and interviews right now.
Indeed, how can she resist? JoanP, you may be Gemini, and I Leo, but I'm beginning to think you are my clone, or I yours. lolol :o I have proposed a question to Annie, asking about the possibility of Mary Ann fashioning the characters after her classical authors. I do hope I get an answer. I read an interview Annie gave, and I am certain she mentioned her seeing her aunt in Juliet's character. Oh dear....don't tell me I have to go search that out again. After taking Jean's recommended humanmetrics test on line, this "Idealist teacher", won't be happy til I find it. lolol
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Alas! I found it...This is the interview I spoke of.
http://www.powells.com/authors/anniebarrows.html[/url
Danielle: "Did you hear Mary Ann's voice coming out through the characters' voices when you were doing your rewrites? "
Barrows: "Oh, yes. The closest to her in tone is Juliet. I can hear pieces of stories I know, pieces of events I know, throughout the book. When I was sitting down to begin my part in writing The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society, I had no idea how to collaborate. It was one of those great mysteries. How on earth do two people write one book? The situation was peculiar, because Mary Ann was very sick. "
Danielle: She entrusted her story to you at some point.
Barrows: "She said, "I can't do this anymore. You're the other writer in the family. Can you?" And I said, "Of course I can do this." But all the time I was thinking, "How can I do this?" As I actually began to write, it was so easy, because I had been hearing her stories all my life, and that voice was just right there."
Danielle: "I think it would have been a lot tougher were it not for the fact that she was your beloved and very close relative and you knew each other so well."
Barrows: "Yes. I still have no idea how anybody really collaborates, how you could possibly write with one voice unless that voice was so deeply ingrained inside you, as it was with me. Mary Ann taught me how to tell a story. I understand why the book is structured the way it is, because that's how I would do it, too. I was so lucky. "
Danielle: "I could hear the characters speaking in my mind. In fact, I came across a book video with actors reading the dialogue, and I had to turn it off. I couldn't stand to hear them read it because..."
Barrows: "It was not right."
Danielle: "Yes, and I'm sure that someone is going to sniff around and want to make a movie based on Guernsey, and how difficult that's going to be..."
Barrows: "God bless them if they do, but how do you get that element of voice that's such a part of the book? With all these characters and the ways that they talk, how do you turn that into a movie? I don't know. I'm sure there's a way, but the voices are such an elemental part of what I think of as the appeal of the book. Some of these characters I just adore."
Juliet is so Mary Ann, that sort of rueful voice, and yet, with a willingness to be delighted and to be fascinated by all of the people on Guernsey. That rueful tone is Mary Ann, and the engagement with books is Mary Ann. But there are other people I know in there, too. While I was writing Guernsey, I was noticing, "That's my daughter!" Some things about Kit come from my daughter. "
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It would be lovely if Annie Barrows would visit our discussion and answer the many questions that we would have for her. I’d want to ask her about Mary Ann Shaffer’s research, the sources she used, etc. One of the articles told how she visited Guernsey in 1976, got fogged in there, and read all the Guernsey books she could find in the airport gift shop. I just finished watching part 5 (out of 6) of Island at War, also fiction, with a focus more on city or town life, zeroes in on three families, showing their conflicts in dealing with being occupied. Two things tonight quickly caught my attention. 1) A Guernsey widowed shopkeeper is sharing black market delicacies with a German official and she remarks, “People are boiling potato peels while we’re eating truffles.” 2) An under-the-radar wheeler dealer brings a dead pig to his sister’s farm. “I just got this from so & so. Call the authorities and tell them you have a dead pig.” Then you see two German officers show up with their notebooks to register the dead animal, and in the next scene an extended family is enjoying a good meal of roast pork.
War stories (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/78/a4185678.shtml)
This is a link to some primary source material about Great Britain and WWII, including some about Guernsey. One narrator tells how he complained to his mum, “boiled potatoes again?” until he saw two elderly pensioners eating their main meal of only boiled potato peel. Another tells of being an eight-year-old on Liberation Day, and the children were given sweets and fruits. He threw his orange ball to the ground and was surprised that it didn’t bounce back up But his parents picked it up and told him to eat it. Such bliss.
Jean, thanks for the info and link about Myers/Briggs. I look forward to trying it out, so many here say it pegged them just right. From what you say it sounds a lot like the Kudor Preference tests we took a million years ago.
JoanP, I may have a bone to pick with you about Juliet. Do you really think she has face to face problems – other than Mark and that Gilly character?
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Oh my heavens I am about to burst!!!!
Annie Barrows, answered my email!!!!
Now, before I post her response, I would like to email her and ask her permission to post it in its entirety on our book club discussion. I am certain it would be okay to share this much with all of you, since we have all been suspecting it to be so.
Annie Barrows,
"And Juliet, dear Juliet, is the character who is closest to Mary Ann herself."
pedln, I will be happy to ask her these questions in my response to her email. I too, hope she will accept our invitation and come in and post.
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Hmm. rereading a lot of posts.. I dont alphabetize my spices, I group them by their affinities.. Hence.. Oregano, Tarragon,chives, together, etc.
Books by genres..then by author, since I only generally collect a few authors for forever.
Elizabeth is so interesting and like many of you, I suspect she is dead. I would like to know a good deal more about her. But not sure we will.
A lot of educated Germans in WWII spoke and/or read English.. I think it was popular in their schools.
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This discussion is so popular, and has so many posts, that yesterday morning I couldn't finish reading them all in the time I had, much lest reply. I came here first this morning, and hope I didn't overlook too many.
Mabel, I find myself agreeing with you wholeheartedly concerning Juliet. I am one of those who are critical of my own flaws, and tolerant of those in others. I understand how Juliet could be so ready to blame herself and excuse Mark.
The quote Bellamarie gave us from Annie Barrows..."Juliet is so Mary Ann, that sort of rueful voice.." explains a lot about Juliet.
Having grown considerably older, and hopefully wiser, I am no longer so apt to allow that tolerance to drag me into a bad situation.
JUDE, "Flanders Field" was one of the poems I learned and memorized in my early school days, and still remember most of it. Have you noticed that we can remember things we learned 50-60 years ago better than what we 'learned' last week?
4/12 Juliet to Sidney & Piers
Some interesting background on Guernsey here. Juliet quotes a history of the island, which were a possession of the Duke of Normandy, and became British lands when William the Conqueror took the English throne. Guernsey, however, has special privileges. “The Channel Islands freely owe their allegiance and owe to the English Crown, but heed this, dear reader --The Crown cannot make them do anything they do not want to do!” It seems the only Crown representative on the Island is an appointed Lt. Governor, who may attend the meetings of the ’States’, may speak and advise, but has no vote.
Does any other English possession have this right, I wonder? Probably not.
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Good morning!
You're so right, Babi - there are many interesting entries here. I just have to stop and thank all of you who are contributing so much to this discussion. I can't think of any book club ANYWHERE on earth examining a book so closely, can you? Thank you everyone for making this such a rewarding experience!
Babi, the Channel Islands are considered self-governing dependencies, as opposed to territories and possessions. As far as I can tell, the Isle of Man, (where Islands at War was filmed) is the only other dependency that has this status. self governing dependencies (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/British-crown-dependency)
Pedln, I'd better rephrase my comment about Juliet's difficulty communicating her feelings - face to face, as opposed to her ease expressing her feelings in her correspondence. I was thinking of her response to Isola's question regarding her "beau"- and how honestly she expressed her feelings to Isola, while she was unable to answer her childhood friend who asked her much the same question.
Steph- do you see Elizabeth as the central character here - even though she is no longer on the island? Or Juliet? Somehow, I have begun to see Juliet and Elizabeth as the same character.
Are they both speaking for Mary Ann Shaffer?
Shall we get together a set of questions for Annie Barrows if she is free to come into this discussion for a short time? It would be easier for her to respond to our questions if they are all in one place, rather than to expect her to spend the time reading through all of these posts. I look forward to her response to your email, Bellamarie!
Can we turn our attention to Adelaide Addison today - her anger. Why is she so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondance with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
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Ann, would you invite dear Gladys. That would be wonderful. I wonder if she's heard of this book? Even without the book, she would certainly have much to add to our discussion. She is a Brit, do I remember correctly?
Yes, Gladys is a Brit. At this time, she has been placed in Hospice care and hasn't posted since Jan 24 but had been actively posting before that. I will ask Patz if she knows anything more than that. She would be quite a delightful poster.
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Okay, I have returned to earth and am ready to focus on Adelaide Addison today.
JoanP, Why is she so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondence with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
It appears Adelaide is a Christian person, she makes that clear in her letters to Juliet. Its obvious, Adelaide has passed judgement on the Society and says,
"Furthermore, the so_called Literary Society is a scandal. There are those of true culture and breeding here in Guernsey, and they will take no part in this charade (even if invited). There are only two respectable people in the Society__Eben Ramsey and Amelia Maugery. The other member: a rag-and-bone man, a lapsed Alienist who drinks, a stuttering swine-herd, a footman posing as a Lord, and Isola Pribby, a practicing witch, who, by her own admission to me, distills and sells potions. They collected a few others of their ilk along the way, and one can only imagine their "literary evenings." You must not write about these people and their books-God knows what they saw fit to read!"
Yours in Christian Consternation and Concern
Adelaide Addison (Miss)"
She clearly in her own misguided way, feels she is protecting the "true culture and breeding here in Guernsey." She has assigned herself the crusader of Guernsey. In the beginning of her letter she states, "But a clear duty is imposed upon me."
Adelaide is your typical, busy body, self righteous, old bat. lolol In her attempt to thinking she is protecting some, she has no idea the harm she is doing to others. She sees herself, as a better class of people. She detests Elizabeth, because she sees her as the ring leader, and outsider, not born on Guernsey Island. Elizabeth was not your normal prim and proper little girl. She ran around with no supervision, not dressed properly, and was in the company of rude fishermen. Imagine the thoughts Adelaide allowed to enter her head about this.
Adelaide has imagined all sorts of ill acts going on in the Society, from witch craft, to drinking, and possibly illicit conversations of sex. Adelaide is a spinster. I sense while she has passed judgement on these people for their lifestyles, she bares a bit of resentment, for the fact they took risks to live their lives as they have. She is trapped in her own prison, of ideals, morals and standards. Its like the famous quote, [i]"If you're not with me, you are against me." [/i] She sees the Society against the Christian way of life.
And one last observation, she found it necessary to include "(even if invited)." She has made it her life mission to outcast people through her judgements, but now she feels she is being the outcast, by these immoral people. No one likes to feel left out, or excluded, regardless if they would choose to be included. It's about just being asked. She would probably have loved the opportunity to tell them, NO!, in her self-indignant voice.
I suspect Adelaide is so hell bent on getting Juliet to turn attention away from the Society, so it does not encourage them to continue. She could be thinking, now that Elizabeth is no longer here to lead them on, they will eventually disban. Juliet is the Elizabeth, their leader, if she pursues giving them attention and making them public, then they will only grow and persist. In defense of Adelaide, I do feel in her heart she thinks she is doing what is Christian and her moral responsibility. I would cheer on someone like Adelaide in the Christian faith, (if in fact these were true sinners), although the way she is going about it, is not Christian. Many a ruler or crusader in Biblical times, attempted to use Adelaide's means, to stop immoral acts, only to find themselves the sinner.
Judge Not, Least Ye Be Judged Yourself
One of the best known and most misunderstood Scriptures is from Matthew.
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5).
By the way.....calling Adelaide an old bat, (that was the devil sitting on my shoulder, just itching to have his say in the matter.) He wins out every now and then. lol
Sorry for the lengthy post, I just can't stop myself at times, its the writer in me.
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I couldn't renew my book at the library, there is a hold on it for someone else - i should not be surprised, it is so popoular, as you've all reported. ................. my problem is that i stayed up late into the night finishing it so i can return it, and now i have to be careful that i don't speak to something that's ahead of your reading.......................so, i'll probably be quiet for a while.
Bellamarie - great coup on getting Annie Barrows attention. It would be wonderful if she could join us one day for a short time. She'd never get a better example of what people are thinking as they read her book............
Joan - there are a couple of cases in the courts about companies using a M/B type instrument BEFORE they have hired an employee.............the question: can it be discriminatory? Altho, it is perfectly acceptable for companies to use them with employees to build teams or to understand themselves and their co-workers. I used it often in management and employee training to alert people to the idea that other people may be just working in a different (not WRONG) way than what you would prefer to work and to not take it personally, and for managers to have more info about how to work w/ each particular employee. .....................everyone tho't it was very helpful. The reason you think it is "right on" is because you gave the answers and the analysis is just verifying what you have answered. Then the psychologists expand that to your other behaviors.....................jean
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Well, I'd like someone to administer the Myers-Briggs to Adelaide Addison, Jean! I suspect we would learn a lot more about her motivation. Bellamarie describes her as "trapped in her own prison, of ideals, morals and standards." I have felt sorry for her from the git-go. I know Elizabeth didn't - she slapped her in front of a crowd of people!
Yes, yes, here comes Juliet, stepping into Elizabeth's shoes - Juliet is the Elizabeth, their leader, if she pursues giving them attention and making them public, then they will only grow and persist. Bellamarie
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JoanP, point understood about Juliet and expressing feelings face to face. I was indeed on a different track, thinking how well she got on with Susan Scott (from Stephens and Stark), how everyone loved her on the book tours.
Speaking of Susan Scott, and admittedly she is not a major player here, but she doesn’t like Mark very much either, as she tells of seeing them together in a restaurant. Juliet invited her to join them, but “it was apparent from Mark’s smile that he didn’t want company. . . . .he’s not a man to cross, with his thin smile. . . . it would break my mum’s heart to find me bobbing in the Thames.”
Babi, thanks for pointing out some of the governing facts about the Channel Islands. And somewhere did it say they don’t pay taxes to Britain?
Bellamarie, somehow I find it hard to believe Adelaide is a true Christian or a follower of any faith that believes in man’s humanity to man.
We’ve been talking about the many parallels found in this book – between Shaffer/Barrows – Juliet – Elizabeth. Can we go down one level further and include Kit? I know there have only been snippets about her, but we are learning a lot. She’ll try anything once (touching Eli’s knife), she has a creative imagination like her mother (finding a boa under a rock). I wonder why she’s not sure if she wants Juliet to come.
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Pedln, maybe Kit was hoping that her mother would come, instead everyone is getting ready for Juliet - even moving her into Elizabeth's - and Kit's cottage!
Listen, I heard from Annie Barrows this morning. I'm afraid she will have the time to visit the discussion, but she is quite willing to answer our questions. How about we submit questions, either here, or individually to her - and then collect them all on one page so we will have our own "interview" with the author? You can reach her at - annie@anniebarrows.com I recommend you let us know here what you are asking if you decide you want to write directly to her - just so we aren't sending duplicate questions and she tires of us. ;)
One thing that really got my attention, Bellamarie - There are only two respectable people in the Society__Eben Ramsey and Amelia Maugery.
Why Eben Ramsey? And if these two are respectable, how can she possibly be condemning the whole group?
Eben Ramsey is another name that I found intriguing, ever since learning that Charles Lamb adopted a little girl named Emma Isola. Where does the unusual name "Eben" come from? I'dsearched everywhere - could only find this -
Hebrew Male Rock or stone of help. Famous bearer: the Old Testament Samuel gave the name Ebenezer to a stone set up in recognition of God's assistance in defeating the Philistines; miserly Ebenezer Scrooge in Charles Dickens' novel 'A Chnsitmas Carol'.
I didn't see a connection here - but this morning, Annie Barrows wrote this...
Eben was
named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of
Ebenezer Le Page, though the two men have very different characters
I was wrong apparently thinking that Juliet and Elizabeth were both Mary Ann Shaffer, but rather it turns out Elizabeth was someone that the author admired. - Annie Barrows wrote I believe that the character of Elizabeth was in some ways an homage to a
Resistance fighter whom Mary Ann admired deeply, Kim Malthe-Bruun. ]
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I think it would be a good idea to collect the questions here and then send them off in a bunch. It will be less work for Annie Barrows, and we can arrange them logically and smooth out any overlaps. Thanks for doing that, Bellamarie, I would never have had the courage.
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I have just received my response from Annie. JoanP, I am so excited to see she resonded to you as well. She has asked I share this with the club. Forgive me that it is lengthy.
Dear Marie--
It's so funny--I just got a letter from Joan Pearson, the moderator of your group. You all are certainly full of enthusiasm, and I appreciate it. You are welcome to post my email to you. I think, however, that if I started posting with all the book groups that were interested, I would never write another book, which is what I really should be doing. As a sort of consolation prize (maybe), I'm attaching an essay I wrote that will appear as the Afterword in the paperback edition. I think it will answer some questions. I sent a copy to Joan Pearson as well, with permission for her to post at will.
Best,
Annie
Now here is what she wanted to share with us:
Annie Barrows
November 4, 2008
I grew up in a family of story-tellers. In my family, there is no such thing as a yes-or-no question, a simple answer, or a bald fact. You can’t even ask someone to pass the butter without incurring a story, and major holidays always end with the women gathered around the table, weeping with laughter, while our husbands sit in the next room, holding their heads.
Obviously, with so much practice, my family is rich in fine story-tellers, but my aunt Mary Ann Shaffer was the jewel in our crown. What was it about Mary Ann turning a tale? She was one of the wittiest people I ever met, but wit wasn’t the essence of her gift. Her language was lustrous, her timing was exquisite, her delivery was a thing of beauty and a joy forever, but none of these reaches to the center of her charm. That, it seems to me, was her willingness to be delighted—by people, their phrases, their frailties and their fleeting moments of grandeur. Together with her delight was the impulse to share it; she told stories so that we, listening, could be delighted with her, and, time and again, she succeeded.
To tell is one thing, to commit to paper is another. For as long as I can remember, Mary Ann was always working on something, but she never completed a book to her own satisfaction, at least not until she embarked upon The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
The story of that embarkation began in 1980, when Mary Ann was in the throes of a fascination with Kathleen Scott, wife of the polar explorer Robert Falcon Scott. In order to write her biography, Mary Ann traveled to Cambridge, England, where her subject’s papers were archived. But when she reached her destination, Mary Ann discovered that the archive consisted primarily of aged bits and notes, scrawled in illegible pencil. Thoroughly disgusted, Mary Ann threw the project over, but she was not yet ready to return home. Instead, for reasons that will always be obscure, she decided to visit to the island of Guernsey, far in the nethermost reaches of the English Channel.
Mary Ann flew there, and of course, drama followed. As her plane landed, what she described as “a terrible fog” arose from the sea and enshrouded the island in gloom. The ferry service came to a halt; the airplanes were grounded. With the dismal clank of a drawbridge pulling to, the last taxi rattled off, leaving her in the Guernsey airport, immured, isolated, and chilled to the bone. (Are you getting the sense of how Mary Ann told a story?). There, as the hours ticked by, she hunkered in the feeble heat of the hand-drier in the men’s restroom (the hand-drier in the women’s restroom was broken), struggling to sustain the flickering flame of life. The flickering flame of life required not only bodily nourishment (candy from vending machines), but spiritual aliment, that is, books. Mary Ann could no more endure a day without reading than she could grow feathers, so she helped herself to the offerings at the Guernsey airport bookstore. In 1980, this bookstore was evidently a major outlet for publishing on the Occupation of the island by the Germans during World War II. Thus, when the fog lifted, Mary Ann left the island, having seen nothing that could be considered a sight, with an armload of books and an abiding interest in Guernsey’s wartime experiences.
Some twenty years passed before Mary Ann, goaded by her writing group, began The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. As the members of the Literary Society found during their ordeal, companionship can help us surmount nearly any barrier, imposed, self-imposed, or imagined. Likewise, Mary Ann’s writing group, by cajoling, critiquing, admiring, and demanding, sustained her through the obstacle course of creation and across the finish line to her first completed manuscript.
“All I wanted,” Mary Ann once said, “was to write a book that someone would like enough to publish.” She got what she wanted—and more—for publishers from around the world flocked to buy her book. It was a triumph, of course for her, but for the rest of us long-time Mary Ann-listeners as well. Finally we had proof of what we had known all along—our own personal Scheherazade could beguile the world. We swelled with pride.
But then, just as if we were in some horrible retributive folk tale, the triumph turned, because Mary Ann’s health began to fail. When, shortly thereafter, the book’s editor requested some changes that required substantial rewriting, Mary Ann knew that she did not have the stamina to undertake the work, and she asked me if I would do it, on the grounds that I was the other writer in the family.
Of course I said yes. Writers are rarely the solution to anyone’s problems, and this was a unique occasion to help someone I loved. But to myself I whispered that it was impossible—impossible for me to take on my aunt’s voice, her characters, the rhythm of her plot.
However, there was no help for it; I had to begin. And once I began, I discovered something: it was easy. It was easy because I had grown up on Mary Ann’s tales—they didn’t just come with the butter, they were the butter. They were nourishment. All those years and years when her stories were the wallpaper of my life, when just passing through the dining room would garner me an odd expression or an obscure fact, Mary Ann’s idea of narrative was becoming mine. In the same way that people acquire accents and politics from their surroundings, I acquired stories.
Working on the book, then, was like sitting down with Mary Ann—her characters were people I knew (sometimes literally) and their most irrational actions had a certain familiar logic to me. When Mary Ann passed away, in early 2008, the book was a comfort, because it held her within it. The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society is a testament to Mary Ann’s talent, to be sure, but in the truest way it’s also the embodiment of her generosity. In it she offers, for our enjoyment, a catalogue of her delights—the oddities that enchanted her, the expressions that entertained her, and above all, the books that she adored.
I think that Mary Ann knew, before she died, that her book was going to be well-received, but no one could ever be entirely prepared for the avalanche of acclaim that greeted its publication. As first the booksellers, then the reviewers, and finally actual readers got their hands on the book, we noticed that their praise often took the same form—the book was quirky, unlike anything else, charming, vivid, witty . . . In other words, it was like Mary Ann herself. Suddenly, the rest of the world had a seat at the table where I had been feasting my whole life, and, as with any family party, they clustered around Mary Ann, weeping with laughter—or sorrow—as her stories billowed forth.
The only flaw in the feast is that it ends. If I could have anything I wanted, I would choose story without end, and it seems that I have lots of company in that. I have received many, many letters from readers all over the world bemoaning the fact that the book comes to an end. “I wanted it to go on forever,” they say. “I want to go to Guernsey and join a book club.” “I want to be a member of the Society.” The good news is that as long as we don’t get too caught up in the space-time continuum, the book does still go on, every time a reader talks about it with another reader. The membership of the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society increases each time the book is read and enjoyed. The wonderful thing about books—and the thing that made them such a refuge for the islanders during the Occupation—is that they take us out of our time and place and understanding and transport us, not just into the world of the story, but into the world of our fellow-readers, who have stories of their own.
In the months since the book was published, I have heard from readers who were reminded of their own wartime experiences. One Guernsey native told me of his evacuation to England, along with hundreds of other children, the week before the Germans invaded. The most thrilling moment, he said, was his first glimpse of a black cow. He hadn’t known that cows came in black. Another woman, a child in Germany during the war, told of bringing food to the French soldier hiding in her attic—she was the only member of the family small enough to squeeze through the trapdoor. It’s not all war-stories, either. I’ve heard from people who want to know if Mary Lamb really stabbed her mother with a carving knife (yes!) and people who want to make potato peel pie (don’t do it!) and people who want to read another book written in letters (Daddy Long Legs).
This profusion of questions, exclamations, and tales is the new version of the society. Its members are spread all over the world, but they are joined by their love of books, of talking about books, and of their fellow readers. We are transformed—magically—into the literary society each time we pass a book along, each time we ask a question about it, each time we say, “If you liked that, I bet you’d like this.” Whenever we are willing to be delighted and share our delight, as Mary Ann did, we are part of the on-going story of The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
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Also now that she has given her permission I would like to post part of my first email to her and her response.
From Marie Reinhart, Toledo, Ohio, to Annie
12th February, 2009
Mrs. A. Marie Reinhart
Toledo, Ohio
Dear Ms. Barrows,
My name is Marie Reinhart, and I live in Toledo Ohio. I have been discussing The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society with my online book club, Senior Learn, http://www.seniorlearn.org/. We began the book on February 1st and have gotten through the letters up to 13th May, 1946. I must say you and your aunt Mary Ann, have created a masterpiece of a book. While we are not suppose to read ahead of our weekly assignment, some have had to read the entire book due to the demand for the book at their local libraries. Mind you some of our club readers are on fixed incomes, and are not able to purchase the book. I purchased mine at Borders in our local mall, and it was the last copy they had. I was thrilled to find it before the discussion began, since there was no hope of getting it from my library.
Now, I must tell you, this book has truly spurred on quite the conversations and some a bit spirited, with our strong opinions of Juliet and her break up with Rob and Markham. Some of the ladies have seen them as ill suited, abusive, controlling and insensitive. I have played the devil's advocate and pointed out how I see Juliet as someone who may not be ready or able to love and commit to marriage. I have used the term, "unattainable love", is what Juliet seems to be searching for. Anyway, I don't want to bore you too much with our ideas, but I do have a very important question to ask you, and I hope you are able to answer it for me. With having the knowledge Mary Ann and yourself worked in a book store, and she was familiar with classic authors of poems, essays and novels, along with the fact she has used many quotes from such writings throughout this book, my question is this; is it possible Mary Ann fashioned many of the characters after some of her favorite or not necessary favorite classical authors?
I have researched each book, name and hint she has mentioned in the book, and it seems to me I am seeing many parallels. It can not be by chance that Elizabeth the character is so like Elizabeth von Arnim and her wonderful book Elizabeth and her German Garden, or that Juliet mentions Markham's two favorite authors are Dos Passos and Hemingway and their writings would coincide with the type of career Markham is in. I have other comparisons, but I am sure you are seeing why I am thinking Mary Ann fashioned the characters after certain authors. I did read many of your interviews, and listened to your audio interview. What a delight to put a voice to a name, I thought it endearing, when you mentioned you saw some of your daughter in the character Kit. How exciting it must be for you to have this book as a memento from your precious aunt. The two of you have given me more joy in reading then I could have ever expected. I too have been writing children's books, and family and friends have encouraged me for years to do a novel. Mary Ann may well be my inspiration to one day write that novel. I have never paid much notice to the classical authors up to now, and I must say I have quotes, essays and novels downloaded on my computer. So I would like to thank you and especially your dear aunt for giving me the desire and get acquainted with such wonderful authors and writings. My literary world has opened up to a whole new dimension. Imagine me, quoting Charles Morley, Charles Lamb, the Bronte' sisters and even Elizabeth von Arnim.
Annie, I hope its okay to use your first name, I would love to invite you to drop in on our online book club and write a few posts. The ladies would be forever grateful and honored to have your presence in our book club. I saw where you said you answer every email, so I will wait anxiously, but patiently for a response.
Here is her answer:
Dear Marie--
Thank you for writing me such a nice juicy letter. I am glad to hear about your book club's discussions about Guernsey, and I applaud you for being the devil's advocate. I think Mary Ann would be delighted--as I am--to hear that her book had inspired you to investigate the works of Lamb and the others. Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love. But I must tell you, in answer to your question, that the characters came from many sources, and since all three of the authors you mentioned--Elizabeth von Arnim, Dos Passos, and Hemingway--were supplied by me, I can tell you why they were chosen. Elizabeth von Arnim, I'm ashamed to say, was selected for no other reason than that hers was the only book I thought would be likely to pop into a British mind that a German officer would also know. Hemingway and Dos Passos I chose because they reveal Markham's tastes and character. I also got a kick out of making him a Wilkie Collins scholar--Collins was such a smoke and mirror type of writer and personally so disreputable that I thought he reflected Mark's true self.
I believe that the character of Elizabeth was in some ways an homage to a Resistance fighter whom Mary Ann admired deeply, Kim Malthe-Bruun. Eben was named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of Ebenezer Le Page, though the two men have very different characters.I am not aware that Amelia is named after anyone in particular, but she looks just like my great-grandmother. And Juliet, dear Juliet, is the character who is closest to Mary Ann herself.
I hope that you'll pursue your writing. I can tell you've got the knack for it.
Best,
Annie
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PatH,
I think it would be a good idea to collect the questions here and then send them off in a bunch. It will be less work for Annie Barrows, and we can arrange them logically and smooth out any overlaps. Thanks for doing that, Bellamarie, I would never have had the courage.
Yes, please look at the emails and questions I included, then read her responses and then you can eliminate them from a list you would like to pose to her. I was thrilled to do it, and overjoyed she has responded not once but twice, immediately. But, as she has stated, she does need to "write", so we musn't take up too much of her time, although, I read she goes into her room every morning, answers her emails, and then proceeds to write. So, I think from her responses, she enjoys getting the emails.
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OOPs sorry...forgot to post my second email and her response.
Oh dear please forgive me, I accidentally sent you my first draft. Where is my brain, or is it I am just a bit over excited? Any way, here was the final draft. I felt it important to include my thoughts of Markham.
From Marie to Annie
13th February, 2009
Dear Annie,
Oh dear, I hope you don't mind, I am assuming to write to you on a first name basis. I was overjoyed to see your response so quickly. I must tell you, I am thrilled to have the answer to my question, about the characters, even if as you said about Markham, "I also got a kick out of making him a Wilkie Collins scholar--Collins was such a smoke and mirror type of writer and personally so disreputable that I thought he reflected Mark's true self. " I fear I may have defended him much more than he deserved. The romantic in me, saw his anger expressed from hurt and rejection, and when he put Juliet in the cab, leaned in to kiss her and said, "You're an idiot, Juliet." I was imagining him in love with her, whispering this, wounded with regret their relationship has ended.
I have shared with the book club you have responded to my email, although before sharing your email, I felt I needed to ask your permission to post it in our book club on line. I am sure they are waiting with baited breath, to hear any words, that are from one of the authors, of this great book. I hope to see it as a movie one day, although as you said in an interview, "God bless them if they do, but how do you get that element of voice that's such a part of the book? With all these characters and the ways that they talk, how do you turn that into a movie? I don't know. I'm sure there's a way, but the voices are such an elemental part of what I think of as the appeal of the book. Some of these characters I just adore.
I share your adoration for some of these characters, and Clovis just stole my heart, God bless his soul. Isola seems to be a favorite with many of our book club members.
I must tell you again, we would all be honored, if you were to stop in and post something on our book club site. Just to give you an idea of the many questions the members have been asking and contemplating, I will copy these particular posts from our club leaders.
pedln, "It would be lovely if Annie Barrows would visit our discussion and answer the many questions that we would have for her. I'd want to ask her about Mary Ann Shaffer’s research, the sources she used, etc. One of the articles told how she visited Guernsey in 1976, got fogged in there, and read all the Guernsey books she could find in the airport gift shop.
Is this the one and only time Mary Ann visited Guernsey?
JoanP, "One more bit of information that illustrates Shaffer's attention to detail. Do you wonder at some to the names in the book - unlike names we are used to reading - Dawsey - Isola Pribby...etc. I have been thinking about the names since the beginning and look here, just look here!
"In 1823 Charles and Mary met and eventually adopted an orphan girl, Emma Isola. Now, let's try to figure out how Dawsey Adams was matched with Charles Lamb!
Do you know, does anyone know at what point Annie Barrows took up the task of finishing Mary Ann Shaffer's book? Was she more than an editor? I know that she is a writer herself - she could have added more to the story than MA Shaffer had planned.
So, as you can see we have tons of questions and believe me, we are going in all different directions. That must amuse you to know. As Jean posted, "It's like being in a college classroom w/out having to take tests - just FUN!" Fun indeed, I dare say.
In closing, I must thank you from the bottom of my heart for responding, and for the kind words of encouragement for me to write.
Fondly,
Marie
P. S.
Should you decide to drop in to our SeniorLearn book club, keep in mind I am, "bellamarie."
http://www.seniorlearn.org/
Her response was as I posted earlier, except she also wrote in another response about my feelings on Markham.....
"Yes, yes, he does love her, in his way. But his way is ownership. He's definitely wounded by her, but he's not changed by her.
A"
Now, I have to tell you this gave me much relief, to know Markham did love for Juliet, even if it was "in his own way", and that he was wounded by her.
How very exciting to have the author's own words, in our book club. I will cherish this more than you could know.
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When Annie Barrows participated in the Barnes and Noble on-line book club in the fall, I asked her about the research that was done for the book. Here is my question and her reply:
Annie, could you tell me what kind of research went into the Holocaust details put into the book? I found the details startling and horrifying! Just when I think I could not imagine any more horrid things that occurred, I am introduced to a few more, as I was in this book.
________________________________________
Both Mary Ann and I read a fair amount about the Holocaust. I think Mary Ann was particularly affected by the story of a Danish resistance fighter named Kim Malthe-Brunn, who was one of the inspirations for Elizabeth. Of course, the details of what Elizabeth, Remy, and Booker experienced were invented, but the scenario at the Women's Block in Ravensbruck is historically accurate, as is the description of the treatment of the prisoners. Likewise, Booker's experiences at Neuengamme, including that bit about clearing unexploded bombs during air-raids and his transfer to Belsen, are based on memoirs of people who were there. What occured during the last days at Belsen seems impossible, but every bit of that is documented (on film, even). If you're interested in further research, I'd recommend beginning at the website of the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
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Laura, we've been looking for you! So happy you came to us now, with so much book left to discuss. I would like to include your question in our page of participants questions and Annie Barrow's answers. Do you think that would be okay? I intend to get that page up this afternoon so we don't dupliclate the questions to the author.
I am struck by the lightness, sometimes the humor in the stories, contrasted with the horror and gruesome details of the camps. It's much like the film - "Life is Beautiful", don't you think? We will read more about them in the coming week.
Bellamarie, I see that you asked some of the same questions we had posed in the discussion which I had also asked in my own letter to Annie Barrows. Let's try to eliminate the duplication so that she answers each question. I think it's better to send our questions one at a time, rather than in one huge email. She seems to have overlooked some of them when sent in "bulk".
Laura, please stick around for the rest of the discussion - you have been missed. Right now we are focusing on Adelaide Addison, trying to figure out what is her problem. She writes to Juliet that the only honorable members of the society are Amelia and Eben. Why are these two exempt from her contempt, do you suppose?
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BELLAMARIE: what good letters you wrote: no wonder she answered them. And what good answers! I liked the article she included: marked the following:
"her [Mary Ann's] willingness to be delighted—by people, their phrases, their frailties and their fleeting moments of grandeur. Together with her delight was the impulse to share it; she told stories so that we, listening, could be delighted with her, and, time and again, she succeeded".
I think that this is what we all feel reading the book.
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I was thrown off the site and so I don't know what went though and what did not.
But I will continue as if nothing happened.
The author very cleverly builds on Charles Lamb's essay on how to roast a pig, for that little creature is an important character. He gives rise to a book club, the corpse of a dead pig allows the characters to enjoy meat until the German officer in charge of inspecting livestock realizes that the islanders keep showing the same dead pig therefore enabling them to eat a live one. It was a clever idea until the German caught on. Hurrah for the pig, for it enabled the islanders to make "pigs" of themselves and enabled them not only to answer their bodily hunger but a hunger for books as well.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/glitpotpeelpie2.jpg) |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 15-21 Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
1. How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers, sometimes friendly, sometimes brutal? Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted? Ever?
2. What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick? Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you? Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth" anecdote?
4. What did you think of Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another? Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb? Do you see him as a possible "swain" for Juliet?
6. Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet? From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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Lucky, this is our "lucky" day as you found us and jumped right into the discussion, feet first. Welcome!
I see that you had participated in the Raj Quartet at one time. You will be pleased to know that they are carrying on right here on SenorLearn.
Wasn't that a hilarious scene with the pig swap? - How meticulous the Germans were with their notekeeping - Death certificates for pigs! Whose idea it to swap the corpse of the dead pig from farm to farm? Do you remember? I'll just bet is was Elizabeth...
It was interesting to learn that the character of Elizabeth was based on the Danish resistance fighter - a young man named Kim Malthe-Brunn.
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JoanK, Thank you, I am just thrilled we have her actual thoughts on how she and Mary Ann went about the characters etc. I do love the quote you used from her. Yes, we all do feel just like she described her family did sitting and listening to her stories. Oh and by the way JoanK, I want to congratulate you on a long and happy marriage. Sounds like you found your, Prince Charming" too. (although like mine, sometimes they can turn into frogs, when leaving their socks on the floor and the toilet seat up.) lolol Just kidding. ::)
JoanP, Yes, I agree, we don't want to dupicate the questions. Of course at the time, I first wrote to Annie, I had NO idea you had also. In my second email I hope you don't mind I copied the questions you and Pedln had posted. I don't feel she overlooked any of the questions, on the contrary as she stated, "As a sort of consolation prize (maybe), I'm attaching an essay I wrote that will appear as the Afterword in the paperback edition. I think it will answer some questions."
I am quite pleased with what Annie has shared with us, and I do feel some things are better left to the imagination and curiosity of the mind when reading. Keep in mind, she has made it very clear, this is a book for enjoyment and to goad readers to read the books they loved. We all may have over thought, and over analyzed, many parts of the book, that did not have any more intent then to give us whimsical, quirky and interesting characters that made up the story.
Sometimes, too much information, can take away from the enjoyment of the book. I like the fact we all have been going in so many directions, and questioning and concluding, our own ideas and thoughts. That's been the pure joy of this, that is exactly what Mary Ann and Annie had hoped would happen. I just bet all the members at the GLPPPS did the same thing.
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JoanP, Whose idea it to swap the corpse of the dead pig from farm to farm? Do you remember?
It was Amelia's idea to use the same dead pig for the AO certify in the book. And imagine, ole Adelaide said Amelia was one of the only two respectable ones. lolol
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Bellamarie and JoanP,
Thanks for bringing Annie Barrows on board-even if it is a fleeting visit. I appreciate all the hard work you put into that task.
Now to return to the subject of Adelaide, whom I belittled and belabeled in a former post when first I read her letters to
Juliette. I have given the issue more thought and here are some surmises I came up with regarding her role in the book.
These surmises may all be true or maybe none of then are true. However it was fun to come up with them.
1. Adelaide appears in the book to show that not EVERYONE in Guernsey is nice or charming.
2.Adelaide is there to remind us that mean , evil thoughts can grow in Guernsey as well as in Germany.
3.Adelaide is secretly jealous that she was not invited to the GLPPPS meetings and finds revenge in badmouthing some of its members.
4.Adelaide has a sad and miserable past that has twisted her into a bitter, mean old woman.More shall be revealed in future chapters.
Any other possibilities out there to add to this list?
To those who mentioned or asked about remembering poems from my childhood and adolescence. Yes, I happily remember many poems and songs that stick in my head from that period not leaving enough room for new material.
Jude
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pedln,
Bellamarie, somehow I find it hard to believe Adelaide is a true Christian or a follower of any faith that believes in man’s humanity to man.
pedln, I am not so sure she is myself, that is why I posted,"It appears Adelaide is a Christian person." Though for me to judge her, would be no different than her, judging the society.
In defense of Adelaide, I do feel in her heart she thinks, she is doing what is Christian, and her moral responsibility.
I was appalled, and then lauged so much, I thougth I would bust at this:
pg.126 Isola speaking, "She (Adelaide) gathered a circle of children around her and commenced singing "For Those in Peril on the Sea" over their little heads. "But no, safety from storms" wasn't enough for her. God had to keep them from being blown up too. She set about ordering the poor things to pray for their parents every night_who knew what the German soldiers might to to them? Then she said they had to be especially good little boys and girls so that Mama and Daddy could look down on them from Heaven and BE PROUD OF THEM. I tell you, Juliet, she had those children crying and sobbing fit to die. I was too shocked to move, but not Elizabeth. N0, quick as an adder's tongue, she had ahold of Adelaide's aren and told her to SHUT UP. Adelaide cried, "Let me go! I am speaking the Word of God!" Elizabeth, she got a look on her that would turn the devil to stone, and then she slapped Adelaide right across the face_nice and sharp, so her head wobbled on her shoulders_and hauled her over to the door, shoved her out, and locked it."
And we ask why Adelaide has such disdain for Elizabeth? We should be asking, why not? lolol That Elizabeth is a spit fire, bless her soul. lol
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I have just caught up with all the posts.
Thanks, Bellamarie and Joan P. for emailing Annie Barrows. I enjoyed her essay. It is very kind of her to take time from her writing to answer emails. I have saved her essay to my Word program, so I can read it again at my leisure. We certainly have been encouraged to read other authors.
Juliet seems so human, so full of our fallacies. --- World War II Guernsey has certainly been brought alive for us, hasn't it. All the people seem so real. I absolute love Dawsey, he is so kind.
I agree with ? --- The Guernsey Literary Society would not have come together without the German invasion. These people probably would have still been in their little niches. So it is wonderful they were able to rise above all the bad that was happening to them and find solace in one another's company and of course discussing books and the authors. It opened a whole new world to some of them. And a wonderful escape.
I had to laugh at Clara Saussey reading recipes filled with all the goodies they couldn't get. I think she reads cook books like I do, as a story.
By the way, my books are sorted by genre, I have a book case filled with cook books, approximately five shelves. I keep thinking I am going to donate them to the library book sale, but I can't part with them. I do like to cook, not bake. And I am not a gourmet cook. Just plain, nutritious cooking.--- My other books are history, biography, fiction, and miscellaneous. My spices are also sorted by type and then alphabetically. ---
I'm enjoying all your posts.
Evelyn
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JoanP and Bellamarie, it may have been Elizabeth’s idea to swap pigs, but actually it was Will Thisbee’s pig that died. Then after the “recording officer” had seen it, he took it over to Amelia who called the officer, and then she passed it on to another friend. And as you know, they kept this up until the Germans caught on. It was fun while it lasted.
Evelyn, so glad you caught up with us. And you are right when you say that World War II Guernsey has been brought alive for us. I don’t know when I’ve read fiction that has made me want to know more and has sent me looking for more information in so many different places.
Jude, thanks for the summary of Adelaide. That seems to pretty well cover her, and you’ve pointed out that victims on the same side don’t necessarily like each other. After my daughter and I saw the Academy Award winning The Counterfeiters, about couterfeiters imprisoned by the Nazis to make pounds and dollars, she said she was surprised by the animosity expressed by the prisoners towards each other. No doubt part of that could be attributed to the pressures of wartime. However, I don’t think we can offer Adelaide that excuse – peacetime, wartime, she’s not likable no time.
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pedln, "JoanP and Bellamarie, it may have been Elizabeth’s idea to swap pigs, but actually it was Will Thisbee’s pig that died."
bellamarie, It was Amelia's idea to use the same dead pig for the AO certify in the book. And imagine, ole Adelaide said Amelia was one of the only two respectable ones. lolol
pg. 76..Yes, it was Will Thisbee's dead carcass, and he took it to Amelia. So which of them came up with this idea first? Did Will bring it to Amelia, with the intent to pass it off so they could hide her pig, and so on? Why would Will decide to take it to Amelia? Seems, everyone trusts Amelia, including dear old Adelaide. lolol
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Yes, Joan, please include the questions and answers from Annie Barrows I post on your page.
Thank you for missing me in this discussion. I have been lurking, waiting to jump in with Annie’s comments. Most of them are pertinent to the whole book, so you will have to wait a bit longer on most of them.
I don’t remember all the details of the book, having read it last August, and am not re-reading it now, so I am keeping quiet until a few comments I have at the ending.
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A B&N reader wrote:
I am amazed as to how easy it is to read a book of letters. I've always had trouble with such books in the past. It is very much to the writer's skill that makes this book so easy to follow, and enjoy.
It is very imaginable to figure how lonely these people were, and how much they felt it was them vs. the Germans, and the rest of the world didn't exist or care about them. Isolation will do this. That's why any outside communicator was such a miracle to them.
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Annie wrote:
I think the problem with most epistolery novels is too few narrators. It's very difficult to believe in a story that's told through forty-page letters by one character (who writes forty-page letters, much less forty-page letters complete with dialogue, descriptions, and background?). I believe the solution is not to bag the epistolery novel, but to have so many characters that no single one is responsible for all the story-telling. I have to say, it was tremendous fun to tell a story through so many voices. Each one gives the story a separate little charge, and each one has his or her own quirks and ideas. I don't know how I'm going to return to regular narrative again.
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A B&N reader wrote:
Did you make up the names as you went along or did you have an ongoing list of names to some day include in a book? I think the names are just darling and found myself looking forward to meeting a new character just to see what the name would be. I think you should consider another book in letter form for some time in the future.
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Annie wrote:
I adore naming characters, and so did Mary Ann. Some of those names come from our family--poor Edwin Mulliss, upon whose tombstone Juliet sits, is a third cousin of mine. And Juliet herself is an homage to a dear friend of Mary Ann's, plus a passing reference to another J. A., Jane Austen. Some of the wackier names are pure invention. I know that Clara Saussey is related to sausage. I don't think that Mary Ann had a list of names to work from, and I know I didn't--when I needed a name, I just stalked around the house until a good one appeared in my brain.
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JOANP, I wondered if Adelaide's considering Eban and Amelia 'respectable' meant simply they were of the proper social class. Her objections to some of the members had nothing to do with morality, but the fact that they were 'a rag-and-bone man' and 'a swineherd'.
I don't doubt that Adelaide considered herself a Christian; unfortunately, it became her excuse for venting her spite and jealousy. IMO, the hallmark of true Christianity is compassion.
JOANK, I marked the same lines in Ms. Barrow's essay. I can't help but think they are reflected in Juliet. I see Juliet as delighted in people and their 'fleeting moments of grandeur'.
The letter Eli wrote to Juliet reminded me what thoughtful gifts people think of in this book. Sending blocks of different wood to a budding woodcarver. The postcard picture of Charles Lamb that Juliet sent to Dawsey with his Selected Letters. I went back looking for other thoughtful gifts, and found Dawsey and the cakes of soap he rendered from pig fat. That soap may have been the most appreciated gift his friends ever received.
On a contrary note, I notice that J. Markham Ramsey’s imagination never soars above flowers, the more showy and expensive the better.
Dawsey to Juliet: “Some days I wear myself out with wishing for Elizabeth to come home." I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth, and want very much to see her come home. I think, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the publication of Juliet’s book on Guernsey brought Elizabeth to wide attention, and resulted in her being found? I would very much like to see that happen. Most of us, though, seem to fear that will not happen.
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Babi,
Dawsey to Juliet: “Some days I wear myself out with wishing for Elizabeth to come home." I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth, and want very much to see her come home. I think, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the publication of Juliet’s book on Guernsey brought Elizabeth to wide attention, and resulted in her being found? I would very much like to see that happen. Most of us, though, seem to fear that will not happen.
I very much would love to see Elizabeth return, but, I am one of them that fear she won't. But, then again, as Annie pointed out, she hates for books to end, and the readers are sad to see this book come to an end. So........who knows, if Elizabeth does not return in this book, there could always be a sequel. Afterall, we surely can see Annie would be up to the task. (hint, hint)
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I just finished the book, and will lurk rather than comment.
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MaryZ, lurk away, tho you know we’re delighted to hear from you anytime.
Babi, I was impressed by the thoughtfulness of the gifts, too. Simple, but with a real understanding about what would please the ‘giftee.’ Good point about Mark and his gifts -- J. Markham Ramsey’s imagination never soars above flowers, the more showy and expensive the better.
Laura, thank you again for bringing us Annie Barrows comments. The info you and Bellamarie have supplied gives the rest of us a lot more insight. Who would have thought Clara Saussey is related to sausage, but now it’s clear. I can’t get that one comment out of my mind – “butter their little bodies” – no wonder they threw her out. That's almost obscene. Did Barrows by any chance say where Dawsey’s name came from? It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before.
I’ve been having fun coming across some names here and then seeing them pop up in other readings. The alcoholic Booker tells about sipping a glass of Chateau Margaux when the Germans came to call on him. Then two days later in P.D. James’ Original Sin, Frances Peverall is drinking the very same. I’d never heard the name before. Then in latin class I didn’t know how to translate the ablative Phillipo to English, and there it is in Booker’s line in the play – Phillipi. Then Ginny is telling the latin 101s about the Romans and soap and oil, and here’s Dawsey and Booker making it out of pig carcass. What a fun read this is turning out to be.
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Good morning, Pedln...I just see you now as I post this. (I wrote it before I saw yours.)
Laura, thank you much for the added comment from Annie Barrow. Indeed we will put them on the page of Annie Barrows' comments on this book. We look forward to hearing more from you - and it is good to know that you are lurking on the sofa in the corner with Maryz, snacking on some of Will Thisbee's pie.
Pedln...old Will Thisbee brought the dead pig carcass to Amelia! Surely it was his idea to substitute it for her living pig! Will, all he wanted to do was sit in the corner, eating his pie. I was rather grossed out to imagine potato peel pie covered in a cocoa topping though. Maybe he was talking about about another dessert pie. He, like Clara Saussey, had no interest in reading - just wanted to be part of the group. Even the minor characters have something to add and are entertaining, I agree with you, Evelyn.
I wondered if Adelaide's considering Eban and Amelia 'respectable' meant simply they were of the proper social class.
Babi, I almost was going to add this to Jude's list or reasons why Adelaide has it in for the society, (except for Amelia and Eben) - but then I went back to check on Eben's background to see if he in fact was from the proper social class. Read two of his letters to Juliet...rather long ones.
He was the son of a tombstone-cutter, a long line of them. Carving was the family specialty.
Before Annie Barrows revealed that Eben was
named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of
Ebenezer Le Page, I had thought the connection was to the Hebrew meaning for Eben - Rock or stone of help. Famous bearer: the Old Testament Samuel gave the name Ebenezer to a stone set up in recognition of God's assistance in defeating the Philistines
But Eben is a fisherman. He writes that like the others (except for Elizabeth, Mrs. Maugery and perhaps Booker, he had little to do with books since his school years.
There's got to be another reason Eben is on Adelaide's good side. Do you suppose we will hear more about this woman - and Eben, before the story ends? I expect we will!
The war, the occupation, the brutality and the suffering seem to be getting a little too close for comfort, as we read of the increasingly dire situation on Guernsey...after DDay. Mustn't it have been hard for the Islanders to keep quiet about DDay after learning about it on the few hidden wireless radios? I'm sure they must have spread the news.
I'm with Steph - I suspect she is dead. I would like to know a good deal more about her. But not sure we will.
The war is over, the Germans are gone - if she's in a hospital, she would have got word out - would have wanted to get in touch with Kit to let her know she's okay. But Elizabeth is a resourceful girl, we've learned that about her.
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Since i had to finish the book to returen to the library, i, like MaryZ must be careful of what i say, so i'll stick to the side issues - accept for this comment: At some point while reading "Dawsey" my mind went to "Dorsey." Depending on your accent the two words sound very much alike and the love story between he and Juliet has similarities to Austen's story.
My mother sometimes made soap and OHHHH what a stink.....the lye in it is what made it smell so badly. She sometimes also made ketchup - another stink! She did both of those chores when i was small, thru the 40's and into the 50's. I always tho't it was to save money, and i'm sure that was part of it, but now i'm thinking it may have also have had something to do w/ the war and the scarcities, especially of fat/lard re: the soap. Of course, there are always more tomatoes than one can use growing in the garden, so i'm sure that making ketchup was both a money saver and a way to use up the tomatoes. I liked the idea of using paprika and cinnamon in the soap and that the men came up w/ the idea. They reminded me of my brother who in his life has liked to cook and has made apple butter and apple cider many, many times, cooking the apples in a big iron kettle in the yard. He also has bee hives and provides us all w/ honey.
Adelaide ? - very often people who live by very rigid rules are very insecure people who feel more comfortable knowing the "right" way to behave and not having to decide - because their decisions might be "wrong" - each time a stiuation presents itself. Elizabeth, on the other hand, being secure in herself, can explore and flit and enjoy the world, feeling confident that she can handle whatever arises. We must also remember that European society - and maybe particularly English society - had very strict rules of behavior for each "class." So Adelaide may be, in large part, presenting us w/ popular thinking about how people of various classes behaved - or were supposed to behave. Those "rules," of course, got largely smashed during and after the war. I'll bet there were many more Adelaides in that society than we see represented in the book.
Just in case Annie is sneaking in here to have a look at us - - - - - thank you for your comments and your time. I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to any future books you write............................jean
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Did Barrows by any chance say where Dawsey’s name came from? It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before.
I don't recall her saying.
Lots more comments from Annie to come, but they will have to wait lest they be spoilers.
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Laura,
Lots more comments from Annie to come, but they will have to wait lest they be spoilers.
Thank you for saving til later. I already felt a little regret, knowing what I know. I have not read ahead, and will NOT finish the book early, because I don't want it to end this soon. I don't feel I have to know all the specifics about who, what, when, where, why, or how the authors came about writing the book. I want to enjoy this as much as possible, and take it all in, and feel what I feel without too much examination or facts, from the author at this point. I am very grateful to Annie, for answering my emails and her allowing me to share them with all of you, I hope it in no way spoiled anything for anyone. My sincere apology if indeed it took the lustre from any of you after posting. I struggled with whether I should post at this time, but then I left I would be selfish in not sharing my emails with all of you. I'm not even sure now, if I want more facts even after I have finished reading. I may be very happy and comfortable with just keeping all these characters and Guernsey in mine own eyes, mind and heart as I feel Mary Ann and Annie intended the readers to do. So, after saying this, I am ready to read next week's assigned pages.
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WELCOME, LUCKY!! Yes, I wonder if this theme of pigs will carry through to the end.
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I apologise for being absent for a week. I have had the most dreadful week. My 14 yr old bichon frise had to be put to sleep last Tuesday and two days later I had to rush my other 14 year old bichon frise to the vet and found she is also terminally ill. Its borrowed time for us. She is not in pain and I will do the right thing when the time comes. My heart is aching. I have meds for her heart and maybe I will be blessed to have her for a little longer. She also has a mass in her body cavity so it definately is a terminal condition. I will try to get back into the book in a couple of days.
Carolyn
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Oh dear Carolyn, I am so very sorry to hear about your sweet dogs. I had a miniature Schnauzer, who I had to have put to sleep a few years ago. He was 14 yrs old, and I know the pain you are feeling. I will keep you in my prayers. I now have a Shitz Zu and he has brought me such joy, I thought not possible after my precious Bobo. Good luck.
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Carolyn,
I am so sorry about your doggies. My Maggie became very ill last weekend and we had her into the vet on Monday. She had/has pancreatitis. He said she was into some fatty foods or toxic food she ate. We only give her IAMs dry food, so she must have gotten into a dead animal. She had to have intravenous fluids, antibiotics and some other medication. She is just starting to come around today and I am going to watch her like a hawk to make sure she doesn't get into anything again. We came very close to losing her. She is 12 yrs old.
I am sorry you lost one of your dogs and the other one is so very ill. As a fellow animal lover, my heart goes out to you. I am sending kind thoughts your way and will be thinking of you.
Evelyn
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Carolyn, what sad news! I am so sorry to hear about your two bichons frisés and fully understand your feeling of loss. You, like your fellow New Zealander Carole Corner, have invested years of love, care and grooming in this special, cuddly breed that shows and photographs so well. How are granddaughters Brooke and Grace taking this?
My last canine companion was a gentle, valiant Greyhound I adopted from a rescue kennel here in Massachusetts (where, by the way, Greyhound racing will at last be banned by 2010 after the referendum question finally passed at the last local election). I renamed her Zola and she let my visiting grands crawl all over her. One day, years later, she became listless, her eyes lost their sparkle. Surgery would have been possible but the prospects were dim and I did not want her to suffer any more. She was cremated and I brought home her ashes. I miss her every day.
Sorry for going into such detail.
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JoanP, pedln, I'm sorry I haven't been able to articulate some answers to your questions but, as usual, I am working on several projects simultaneously though perhaps not as adroitly and effortlessly as I did in the past.
The WW II era is very much my own; I grew up in Europe and experienced the war there, bombing and loss of home included. As one of the characters in our book said (and I paraphrase), "no one who has lived through war will forget it", whether he/she as involved on the home front or on the battle front.
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Traude - Brooke and Grace are devestated. This morning they just spent time cuddling Zoe. Zoe was very pleased to see them. This afternoon Ruth came and Zoe was very happy to see her too. Her eyes are bright today and she even chased the cats ( she can't really get to them but she leaps at the screen door and they take off from the doorstep in high dungeon!) She also hung around my feet while I was eating dinner.
Carolyn
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My apologies. I just noticed that only part of my long post (just finished) showed. Thankfully I have a copy and will resend the rest tomorrow.
Carolyn, my heart goes out to you and the girls. The only solace at this point is to know Zoe is not in pain.
Take care.
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Good morning,
Oh Carolyn, those of you who have loved and lost a family pet understand just what you are going through right now. Please accept my sympathy. Your Zoe is feeling the loss and the love too.
I was struck by the feelings expressed in the letter signed by "an animal lover" in one of the letters here. While it was sad to learn what happened to the pets left behind by the families who evacuated the island, it was understandable in a way, wasn't it? difficult to face up to the reality of war.
Traude knows...no one who has lived through war will forget it", whether he/she as involved on the home front or on the battle front.
We are getting a dose of what those on the home front had to endure - even those on the isolated island of Guernsey.
And yet, life went on - Jean, I think it is Adelaide's "insecurity" that made me sympathize with her. (Am I the only one?) She is such a bitter and lonely person, excluded from the literary society which might have given her some comfort and distraction from the reality of war for at least a little while.
Laura, I seem to remember some reference to Dawsey's name, but can't remember or even find a note about it. This morning I am amused at Jean's parallel - Dawsey/Dorsey. What do you think - is Pride and Prejudice one of the greatest love stories ever written?
Looking forward today to hearing your reaction to the latest batch of letters the busy postman has just delivered...
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Oh dear, my suspicions have come true....The questions at the top for this week are good questions, but let's not pretend, there is a big elephant in the room. I am so sad at this point, I don't even know what to post. The gruesome treatments, the dear friends of Elizabeth in mourning, poor little Kit, no longer having a mother, Rem suffering as she did, etc., etc. I don't want to get too far ahead of the discussion for this week but I feel I must begin with this question....
Is Elizabeth Mc Kenna a believable character to you?
I have to tell you, all along, I have seen Elizabeth as a guardian angel.
How is it she came to be in so many places, helping so many people? Where did she get the stamina, to hold up in the most horrible conditions, and situations? I suppose there are thousands of people, that have lived through wars, that can vouch for a person like Elizabeth. Strangely as it seems, I now see Elizabeth more like Mary Ann, and Juliet more like Annie. Mary Ann began the book and is no longer with us, and now Annie is left to carry on her memory and the legend of this book, and Elizabeth is no longer with Guernsey, and Juliet is living in her cottage, with her little girl and all her friends, carrying on her legend and memory and finish her book. Sidney has the insight to challenge Juliet to get involved on a more personal level in order to write her story, just as Mary Ann's family, challenged Annie to do the same to finish her story.
Annie, like Juliet, is left to complete the tasks, Mary Ann and Elizabeth began. They are left to comfort those who mourn their loss, they are left to give hope and love to those who loved these two women so very much, yet they must also deal with this loss on their own personal level. They are left to live on, in the shadows and shoes of these two wonderful women. What a compliment and honor to have. Okay, well enough for now, I still have so much more to absorb.
One little tidbit I do want to share, is last night my husband and I sat watching "Somewhere in Time' a 1972 movie with Christopher Reeve, and Jane Seymour. Interesting enough, I realized Elise's last name was none other than, "McKenna", so what do you make of that?
Elise McKenna, Elizabeth McKenna, coincidence or not? It was a movie about traveling through time. Talk about sitting and getting goose bumps, realizing the similarities was just spooky. The movie is set in 1912, on an island in Mackinaw, Michigan. I have visited Mackinaw Island, and seen the Grand Hotel, and its striking the likeness to Guernsey Island's picturesquare, small quaint, beauty. I remember taking the ferry boat to the island, and seeing the beauty as we approached, and then standing on the island and looking out onto the water, thinking, "Is there a more beautiful sight in all the world?" I may never travel to Guernsey Island, but I will certainly return to Mackinaw Island.
Sorry, if like I said, I got ahead of the this week's discussion. I am certain we are all feeling a bit sad, after learning all this week's assignment revealed.
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"very often people who live by very rigid rules are very insecure people who feel more comfortable knowing the "right" way to behave and not having to decide - because their decisions might be "wrong" - each time a situation presents itself
. (Mabel)
MABEL, I feel this is so true. I have drawn the same conclusion in thinking about some church folk. Christ did all he could to free people from the hide-bound thinking of the Pharisees, who were all bound up in their 'rules'. But so many people are much more comfortable with rules, that allow them to feel safely righteous without the necessity of too much thought or study.
Someone was asking if we thought the portrayal of Elizabeth to be realistic. I, for one, definitely do. There are people like that; I only wish there were more.
Here is another perfect vignette of Elizabeth's character, in a letter from Sally Ann Frobisher to Juliet.
Sally Ann had developed scabies, much to her embarassment. She goes to the hospital to be treated. The doctor has assured her it will not hurt. There she meets ‘my friend, Elizabeth McKenna’. Have you noticed that everyone refers to Elizabeth as their friend? (Except for the self-righteous Ms. Addison, of course.)
Anyway, she tells Elizabeth that the Dr. told her the treatment wouldn’t hurt. Elizabeth replies, “He lied. It’s going to hurt like hell. Don’t tell your mother I said ‘hell’.” Which of course made Sally giggle. It was the perfect thing to say. She tells Sally the truth, while at the same time giving her something to laugh about, and distracting her while the first cut is made.
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Again my apologies. While I was typing last night what became a rather longish response - only one paragraph of which ultimately appeared - a sudden outburst of music filled the room. I have no idea how the itune icon my granddaughter Hannah had implanted there on one of her visits had become activated. I managed to lower the sound but the beat could still be faintly heard, which was a bit upsetting, I admit. Then I blithely resumed typing here and, at the end, faced the even bigger shock of seeing only one paragraph of the whole!
But this is a new week and there are new questions to ponder. So I'll repeat only a few of the answers that got lost last night.
JoanP, some European writers do in fact reflect, refer extensively to and cite/quote their literary heritage. That is true also for Muriel Barbery and The Elegance of the Hedgehog. The local book group will discuss that book on Tuesday, and, because it had been my suggestion, I'm a little anxious about their reactions.
In our book here I don't believe the literary references have a deeper meaning that we search for, but rather represent the personal preferences of the authors.
Christian Hellmann was a field surgeon, an officer, an educated man, fully the equal of Elizabeth. Since I am of the WWII generation I can speak to the German educational system of the time. For one thing, it was very much a matter of class. The high schools were public but tuition had to be paid; there were no scholarships. High schools were also segregated by gender.
Coeducation began after the war when Germany (like Austria) was separated into four occupied military zones; the American, English, French and Russian zone respectively.
All courses in the college-preparatory were mandatory in my time (they still are, I hear), including Latin, French, English; all types of math, geometry, trigometry, calculus (mercy!) and all sciences separately, history and geography (!) ;electives non-existent. I mention this only to demonstrate that it is perfectly natural that Christian Hellmann was fully conversant in English and had been exposed to Charles Lamb and other literary greats.
What I meant to say in my post last night was that bombs are still falling, shots are still being fired in many parts of the world. Peace in the world remains elusive, perhaps an illusion. Wars have been a continuum for centuries;
the means used for annihilating the enemy have become ever more sophisticated. It is impossible to explain to an American what it means to be attacked in one's own country by a foreign power and/or occupied. But we have our book as a clear reference. Countless other examples of the same phenomenon abound.
On Mark, we might remember that the description of him is a reflection of what the authors saw: the spontaneous
warmth, the white teeth, the tanned, open face, the devastating smile. Britain continued to suffer after the war; rationing continued there (and elsewhere in Europe), and ration cards/coupons, both for groceries and articles of clothing were often useless because the merchandise just wasn't there. Even after the war survival was a daily concern in all the war-torn areas of Europe. Fraternization has always existed in some form, just think of the female camp-followers of the Middle Ages (!)
Much more remains to be said but my just grandson has appeared. He needs to use my computer for making some sophisticated additions to an essay for school, so I will be offline. Thank you for this lively discussion.
In haste, Traude
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I too have an old dog. He's 16 and a half and has had a number of operations to remove growths . But the story I want to tell is of our previous dog, Buster, a Rhodesian Ridgeback who lived till fifteen. He loved and was loved by our cat, Kitty, and they ate together, slept together and except for his walks hung out together most of the day. When Kitty died (aged 16) Buster kept looking for her every minute of the day. After a month he just lay down on their mat and died.
I am telling this story because one of the questions for this week was about Elizabeth's love for a German soldier who was a doctor and seemed a fine person. He was not the only good German as we now know,and she could see through his uniform to his kind, warm heart. There are exceptions to every rule like my cat and dog and Elizabeth and her love.
If we put all Germans in the same pot we would be simple. Not all Guernseyans were perfect either. There was a thriving black market and some of the"silly young things" sold there bodies for lipstick and stockings.
For those who would like to read about the good Germans may I suggest the book "The Book Thief" which will put you in the world of good Germans and how they managed to survive the war.
Jude
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Due to a busy week ahead, I may only have time for lurking only. I also have read and listened to the whole book but won't give anything away when I return to posting.
Jude
Yes, I agree with you about the Germans also having good people. Heck, there are good people who love the U.S. in Iran. I might look for the book that your mentioned. Have you read "The Bookseller of Kabul"?? Another siting of good people stuck in the middle of something completely not their idea.
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Jude, Thank you for your story, and the book recommendation. I learn something new, every day I come in here. What am I going to do when we finish this book?
Not all Guernseyans were perfect either. There was a thriving black market and some of the"silly young things" sold there bodies for lipstick and stockings.
Jude
JoanP,
I think it is Adelaide's "insecurity" that made me sympathize with her. (Am I the only one?) She is such a bitter and lonely person, excluded from the literary society which might have given her some comfort and distraction from the reality of war for at least a little while.
No, you are not alone JoanP. Previously, I posted my thoughts on Adelaide, and they fall in line with how you feel. Like Jude pointed out, "Not all Guernseyans were perfect either." I always look for the good in every person I meet, regardless of the behavior and appearance they show me. It is sometimes difficult, but generally, if you look close enough, you will find something, just like Elizabeth was able to look beyond the uniform of the German soldier.
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Thoughts that come in the night -- Kit is named for her father – didn’t we see somewhere that her full name was Christine or Christina. Amelia is right to have been concerned about divulging her paternity. No doubt the Germans in authority would have been delighted to return the Aryan child to her father’s homeland, even tho we can surmise that the father, had he survived, would have returned to Guernsey.
Babi, one of the delights of this section are the humorous anecdotes about Elizabeth, and the one described by Sally Ann was one of my favorites. Maybe humorous is not the word – feel good, then.
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Greetings,
I have lived in the Notting Hill section of London for the past 16 months. A friend recommended this book to me, she knew the author briefly when they worked together in the library in a town outside of San Francisco. I haven't started reading Guernsey Literary yet, I'm at home in Mclean, Va. for the next few weeks, but I enjoy this discussion and will look forward to beginning the novel when I return.
As an aside, there was a great furor in London recently when Carol Thatcher, daughter of Margaret, and presenter for the BBC made a comment, off the air, to a fellow presenter, that a French tennis player was lie a "golliwog". The comment was considered by many to be racist and she was to be banned from working on the show. I don't know the outcome.
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Welcome, welcome, Ivmfox! (An interesting name! May we call you IV?) We are neighbors here in VA. I wish I had know you when I made the potato peel pie several weeks back -would have invited you over for some roast pork and pie!
As far as I know, BBC has let go of Carol Thatcher for the golliwog comment. If the story is true, she made it off air to a friend, as you say, and another BBC staffer overheard it and leaked it to the press. That staffer is also under investigation and may also be dismissed.
When do you return to London?Do you have computer access in Notting Hill? Beginning March 1, we will be discussing Doris Kearns Goodwin's very readable Team of Rivals and on April 1, Muriel Barbery's The Elegance of the Hedgehog.
You say you have not yet read Guernsey yet? I really don't want to discourage you from staying with us, BUT we are now over halfway through the book and about to discuss what I am afraid will be a "spoiler" for you. Please come back to us after you have read the book. This entire discussion will be available to you in the Archives if you read the book after February 28.
We all look forward to hearing from you again!
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Let's consider Juliet and Elizabeth together today? We know Juliet from her letters (all written in the year following the war) ; everything we know about Elizabeth is "heresay - anecdotes that took place during the occupation."
Evelyn writes - Juliet seems so human, so full of our fallacies
Our weaknesses and frailties.
Is this what makes her "human"?
Bellamarie sees Elizabeth as a guardian angel. Supernatural? Superhuman?
Babi - I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth
The question before us - is Elizabeth a believable character?
Babi definitely - There are people like that; I only wish there were more.
Do any of you know women like Elizabeth?
What are her human frailties? Are they treated as weaknesses or as admirable virtues?
Traude, where were you exactly during the war? We value your childhood memories - and your input regarding the young German men who joined (were conscripted?) Hitler's army.
Elziabeth was not such an ideologue that she classed all Germans as bad guys, not to be trusted.
Jude, do you remember the author of The Good Thief?
Pedln - No doubt the Germans in authority would have been delighted to return the Aryan child to her father’s homeland
This explains why Elizabeth did not reveal Kit's paternity. In one of the letters I remember reading that had she made known the fact that the father was a German officer, Elizabeth would have been saved. What do you think would have happened to her? You have to wonder, don't you? If both Kit and Elizabeth would have been saved, why did she choose to remain silent?
Have a great day, everyone. We are on the way downtown with the grandboys to the newly opened Ford's Theater...not sure if we will take the four and six year old into the house across the street to view the bed in which Lincoln died. THe six year old is clamoring for it, while the four may be...too young.
Will stop in when we return...
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5/14 Isola to Juliet:
Isola makes clear that there were great differences in the German soldiers occupying Guernsey. Some were as cheerful as tourists, shopping, admiring the scenery, being friendly and buying ‘ice lollies’ for the children. Then there came the troop of ‘goose-stepping’ soldiers, heavily armed, looking at no one. Frightening. I remember seeing them in newsreels. I am glad the book speaks of both 'sides' of German actions/behavior, instead of only the horrors.
5/16 John Booker to Juliet ….Belsen, and the Germans forcing the prisoners’ band to play music as other prisoners dug trenches and burned the bodies of their dead fellow prisoners. What could the Nazis have been thinking? What is there about this that reminds me of “Brave New World”? Perhaps, the passing out of candy to children brought in to observe people dying.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 15-21 Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
1. How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers, sometimes friendly, sometimes brutal? Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted? Ever?
2. What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick? Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you? Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth" anecdote?
4. What did you think of Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another? Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb? Do you see him as a possible "swain" for Juliet?
6. Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet? From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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Welcome ivmfox. We’re so glad you found us, and we’d love for you to stay – but that’s up to you, for as Joan has said, we’re discussing the third section of the book and we don’t want to be spoilers for you. My personal opinion is that this book is so rich in characterization, in communication, in its relationships to other books, that even knowing what’s going to happen (before you get there) would not spoil it for the reader. I have read and re-read so many of the letters, and always seem to find something new.
Babi, I’m glad too, that we’re seeing both kinds of Germans. Probably more of the “good” ones than the other kind. Bunting, in Model Occupation points out that this was considered a “good billet” by most of the German troops sent there. Many had come from the horrors of the Russian front, so assignment to Guernsey was like being sent to an island paradise. There were actually palm trees. And, when they first arrived, fruits and vegetables. And a concerted effort, when they first arrived, to get along with the locals. One soldier who was later interviewed told of his comma ding officer saying – (about all the flowers) “You may look at the flowers. You may smell the flowers, under no circumstance can you pick the flowers.” The only diabetic to survive the occupation was 14 years old, in the hospital . The German doctor liked him and would do jigsaws with him. The boy thought he was going to die and wanted to die at home, so he checked himself out. At home, a German soldier came to the door with insulin because the doctor had told him there was a diabetic boy there. The soldier had been trying to find insulin for his mother in Cologne, but when he got it, Cologne had been bombed and his mother dead, so he gave it to the boy, who doled it out in small amounts and said it kept him alive for months.
About Elizabeth, yes, she’s believable, a very strong woman, willing to do what she believes is right,– nursing the Todt worker, getting Booker set up as Lord Tobias, staying with Jane until she has her baby, -- and fight against what she knows is wrong – like Adelaide scaring the children and the guard beating the prisoner. She comes across as perhaps more determined, more focused than Juliet, but they are both prone to act first, think afterwards.
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I was so sorry that my suspicions were correct. Actually for the stories sake, Elizabeth had to die.. I find her more of an ideal than a person though. There are always people in every situation who have the need to make others suffer.. I dont think it was lipstick as much as it was power though.
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For those who asked "The Book Thief" is by the Australian author Marcus Zusak. His book is unforgettable ! Its about an orphaned Christain girl who steals books and the people who she meets along the way. It would be a good read for this group if you can stand another look at WW2 and Germany under Hitler.
Adodonnie:
The Bookseller of Kabul is on my want to read list. Thanks for reminding me to look for it sooner than planned.
A favorite letter? Well I chose one that spoke to me because of the effect an understanding person (Sidney) can have on another human being (Isola). It was magical how she awakened to Jane Austen and the fun of a Cuckoo Clock. She had never experienced being treated with so much respect and indeed took seriously the secret Sidney gave into her keeping. The fact that her parrot bit the head off of the Cuckoo out of jealousy struck me as such a moment of reality that, for me because of this scene , Guernsey itself came alive . (Letter 8th of July Isola to Sidney)
Jude
Jude
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JoanP,
Do any of you know women like Elizabeth?
What are her human frailties? Are they treated as weaknesses or as admirable virtues?
The one person I knew, that is most like Elizabeth, is my Mom. She was a lady who was there for everyone, even when she had seven children of her own to raise, she took in three nieces needing a home. We were so poor, yet she would take in any stray relative or friend in need. She nurtured the sick, she comforted the mourning, she could make you laugh on a dime with her quirky wives tales, she would stand up to anyone, regardless of her small size. She was a spitefire if you angered her. She was as gentle as a lamb, when caring for a sick person, and much like Elizabeth, she would be honest and tell you its gonna hurt, but let's get it over with. Everyone knew they could depend on her in a time of need. She would be alive today, had she cared more about her own well being, instead of so much of others. She was a true example to what a Christian should be, and lived the Beatitudes here entire life. She would be friends with people in our small town, that others would not have approved of, because she took the time,to see each individual for who they were, on the inside. Her human frailties, were probably, she allowed herself to become involved, due to the unfair treatment of others, and also allowed her emotions over ride good judgements at times. Yes, I believe they were weaknesses in a way there were times she needed to say no, although many, admired her for her frailties because they knew how much she denied herself and her own children to do for others.
I many times asked her to take better care of herself, and let others figure things out for themselves. She wouldn't hear of it, and in her last days, when I was feeding her soup, she cried, and said, " I never wanted to ever let anyone see me like this, in this situation as weak and needing to be fed." I told her, "You cared for me as a child, teen and adult, when I was very sick, it is only fair,you allow me to do this for you now."
She was my Elizabeth. Both Elizabeth and my Mom, emulated Mother Teresa.
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I finally received and read "Guernsey" as I couldn't renew it due to the reserve list. It was such a satisfying read. I can't say that I've ever met anyone like Elizabeth but have known several Juliets.
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Good morning!
After learning of Elizabeth's final days, did you feel as I did that the story was over? Think of the effect on the members of the literary society who carried on their book club meetings, attracting new members, caring for Kit, all the while waiting for news of Elizabeth and her return. How devastating this must have been for them, how deflating. But life must go on - and there is Kit, now an orphan. Officially?
Steph writes - "for the story's sake, Elizabeth had to die"
The more I think about it, the more I agree. "I find her more of an ideal than a person though."
Is Eliabeth meant to be an ideal character, unlike most of us?
Pedln - she’s believable, a very strong woman, willing to do what she believes is right, and fight against what she knows is wrong.
Bellamarie sees a similarity between her own mother and Elizabeth - she allowed her emotions over ride good judgements at times. Yes, I believe they were weaknesses. There were times she needed to say no, although many, admired her for her frailties
FlaJean - "I can't say that I've ever met anyone like Elizabeth but have known several Juliets."
We've noted earlier the similarities between Elizabath and Juliet - do you see differences?
I keep forgetting that Juliet spent the war years in London - her home was bombed, she lost her prized possessions - her books! And yet we hear nothing more of what she experienced. Does she appear traumatized to you?
Traudee, I didn't remember that Christian Hellman was a field surgeion. On the island of Guernsey - during war time. Don't you find this a bit odd? Were we told why he has been sent to this "island paradise" - as Bunting described this "good billet" in Model Occupation?
Jude -Australian author Marcus Zusak's "The Book Thief"
sounds fascinating - about an orphaned girl who steals books. A recent publication? (Which reminds me, where is our own Australian girl, Gum?
We must carry on, without Elizabeth, for Kit's sake. There is much more to come.
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There does not seem to be much discussion this week. Has everyone finished the book, and trying not to give anything away? After reading Elizabeth was killed, and the other sad parts, it has been difficult for me to collect my thoughts.
JoanP, After learning of Elizabeth's final days, did you feel as I did that the story was over?
We were posting at the same time JoanP. I guess you put it into the words I felt. I do feel like the story has ended. I am fighting the urge, to just go ahead and read the ending pages now, as others have.
I have been missing our "tooth fairy" Gumtree also.
JoanP, "We must carry on, without Elizabeth, for Kit's sake. There is much more to come."
It may be better if we did finish the last pages, so we can see the "much more", these pages seem to have left everyone in a bit of a slump.
We hit such highs in our discussion, with searching for clues, the author, etc. and then contacting Annie and learning things about how and why they wrote the book, I fear it may have taken the lustre out of our curiosty and conversations. I have learned a huge lesson, I won't go searching for the author and answers before I finish a book from now on. So....in saying this, I am going to go ahead and finish the book since there doesn't seem to be much discussion in these pages.
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Oh me, I dont feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeths part of it. Juliet is becoming the kind of person I would like to know finally. A last parting from Mark and she will have become quite a human being. Kit never knew her mother except for stories, so I suspect she is not as affected as another child might have been.
no, no Elizabeths in my life.. What I really want in my life is Isola.. Quirky has alway been my aim. My mother was a terror. She loved and hated with the same intensity. A typical southerner of her era.. Prejudiced in the abstract.. loving and kind in the individual. Lots of friends... clubs..and after widowhood, a real passion for interesting men.. Ah me.. no Elizabeth, but I treasured her just the same.
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We're not at the end yet; this is only week three. Let's not miss some of the delights of this section, because it ends so sadly with the news of Elizabeth's death. Even receiving that news brings in a new character that Elizabeth befriended, who now needs the help of the Guernsey friends.
I enjoyed how everyone pitches in to get a house ready for Juliet. Wouldn’t that make you feel warm and welcome? Another big grin: Dawsey’s ‘job’ is keeping Isola alive, as that doughty woman climbed up on the roof to check for loose tiles! Then, Juliet arrives in Guernsey and recognizes people from their letters. The woman in the ‘mad’ hat, purple shawl and glittering brooch, looking in the wrong direction, has to be Isola. The man standing with the tall boy by his side must be Eban and Eli.
I haven’t received a written letter in years. I certainly don’t correspond with anyone enough to get an idea of what they would look like. I wonder if anyone does, anymore.
5/27 Juliet to Sidney A concise description of Guernsey: “..fields, woods, hedgerows, dells, manors, dolmens, wild cliffs, witches corners, Tudor barns and Norman cottages of stone.”Oh, I long to see it all. Whatever is a ‘witches corner’?!!
Okay, I found this picture of a ‘witches corner’, but I still don’t understand what it is. Can someone else please tell me?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.thompson90/Photo_page_271.htm
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Oh Bellamarie, not to worry. There’s plenty left here before we get to the final section. (I’m on my third reading of this book and am still finding new in every section.. The real problem will come in June when my f2f group discusses it, after the paperback release.There is just not enough time to talk about it in one afternoon.) I’ll bet you have your own questions from the reading for this week. Don’t hesitate to ask away.
In the meantime, I’ll have to agree with Steph and Babi
Oh me, I dont feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeths part of it. Juliet is becoming the kind of person I would like to know finally.
from Steph
Let's not miss some of the delights of this section, because it ends so sadly with the news of Elizabeth's death. Even receiving that news brings in a new character that Elizabeth befriended, who now needs the help of the Guernsey friends.
from Babi
The man standing with the tall boy by his side must be Eban and Eli.
from Babi
There have been a couple of times when Juliet mentions Kit riding on Eli’s shoulders, and I can’t help but think, what a sturdy boy he has become. It’s sad that Eben missed his growing up years, but he must take joy in the boy before him now.
Babi, you’ve sent me on a goose chase, but not a wild one, trying to find the definition of Witches Corner. (Great picture. I’ve been to Maastrict – years ago, a lovely city, but I never heard of a Witches Corner).
Has anyone heard from Joan Roberts? She was going to get that book about Ebeneezer Le Page.
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Babi
In answer to your query about handwritten letters-
Recently I recieved a four page lwtter from a 95 year old lady . the penmanship was beautiful and the ideas sparkling. She lives in a retirement home and attends a weekly book group in which non-fiction is discussed. When I mentioned fiction she told me she had read very little but "Great Expectations" was a work that had influenced her life. Having recently read "Mister Pip" by Lloyd Jones I sent her my copy since this is a book about a young girl whose life is deeply effected by the same book. My acquaintance is by profession a bio-medical researcher and she researched aspects of the book I never thought of. She also convinced her book club to read this novel and hopes that perhaps they may even attempt Great Expectations itself.
Bellamarie
"The Book Thief "is a fairly new novel , published just a year or two ago. It won a number of prizes.
Jude
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Jude, that’s fascinating, and how nice for you to have such an interesting person to correspond with. I read and enjoyed Mr. Pip and would like to know what she researched from the book. Some time ago I checked out The Good Thief from the library, but for some reason did not pursue. After seeing your comments about it I think I will try it again; at least spend more time getting started. Sometimes mood plays a part in what we read or don’t read.
Babi, I missed your question about letters. About the only handwritten letters I get are from the grandchildren writing the obligatory thank yous. I must admit they do get quite creative. The only other person I know who writes and receives regularly is my friend Bonnie who doesn’t have and doesn’t want a computer. She keeps up with her family, weekly letters to her son, and of course, they must reply in kind. No email there.
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I think nothing can take the place of handwritten letters. There are the strokes of the pen, that show a person's personality, that is lacking in keystrokes. My 13 yr. old grand daughter will be making her Confirmation, at the end of March, and has asked me to be her sponsor. I received a letter from the church, explaining they want sponsors to write a letter to the confirmant. telling them about their relationship and faith journey. I immediately went to the computer to compose the letter. After reading Babi's post, I have decided to hand write it to her. I will get lovely stationary, and a special pen, just for this occasion.
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One question I have is...
Do you think the author timed the news, of Elizabeth's death, too soon after Juliet's arrival?
I was just enjoying the excitement of Juliet finally arriving in Guernsey, getting to know everyone, and Kit accepting Juliet, when I turn the page and there it is! I suspected all along Elizabeth would be dead, I guess I just was not prepared, to learn of it so quickly after Juliet arrived. It seems I had a difficult time going from, Juliet arriving, to the very dark, sad, painful events that followed her arrival, so quickly.
My favorite part of these pages were: "I've just received a wonderful package from your new secretary....She found Kit two books of paper dolls_ and not just any paper dolls either. She found Greta Garbo and Gone With the Wind paper dolls_pages of lovely gowns, furs, hats,boas__oh, they are wonderful."
I am sensing Juliet is having the time of her life, getting to experience, playing with Kit.
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pedln,
Has anyone heard from Joan Roberts? She was going to get that book about Ebeneezer Le Page.
I fear we have lost track of a few of our members. Gumtree..."tooth fairy"....are you lurking? Is everyone just lurking. waiting to jump in once we are at the last week, since they have already finished the book? I'm feeling a bit lonely here, like talking to myself. lolol ::) ::) ::)
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Oh me, I don't feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeth's part of it.
I agree, Steph - and let's face it, Elizabeth's stroy has been over for a long time...since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey.
Babi, every day I check the mail for "first class, " remembering how I used to look forward to the sound of the mailman. I suppose we have to just appreciate email now and not look back to the "good old days." These letters really bring back the memories, though. Don't they?
I love the excitement and the anticipation when news spread that Juliet was actually going to come to Guernsey! Especially Isola - those were hilarious scenes you have described, Babi. I'll bet we all know - and love at least one Isola.
Do you think the author timed the news, of Elizabeth's death, too soon after Juliet's arrival? Bella
We all feared that something had happened to Elizabeth - the war over for some time. I think the news could have come at any time...even before Juliet's arrival. By the time the news comes to Guernsey, Kit is warming up to Juliet. Don't you think Juliet is a comfort to these Islanders? She seems to have made herself right at home. Everyone is so gratified for the splendid article she wrote about how the Guernsians held on during the occupation with the help of the literary society.
This morning Annie Barrows sent along a response to Pedln's question -
"I understand that you and your aunt both read widely about Guernsey and
World War II, and that Ms Shaffer visited Guernsey in 1976. Did either of
you visit again? Also, one of our members, spurred on by your book, has
borrowed Madeleine Bunting's Model Occupation from her library and noted one
of the sources included there was a diary kept by a school teacher. She
would like to know if you were able to get hold of primary source material
like diaries, letters, or even participate in interviews with Guernsey
residents. So many in our group would like to learn more about the occupied
islands and would appreciate it if you could point them in the right
direction."
Here is Annie's response, which we are currently saving along with all earlier responses:
Actually, the family consensus is that Mary Ann visited Guernsey in 1980. She never put the year on her letters, so we thought for a while she had been to the Channel Islands during her first English trip, in 76. She only went there that once. I went to Guernsey last summer, primarily to see if all the stuff I made up was correct. As for primary sources, I read a collection of interviews in a book called Liberation! and The Diary of the German Occupation of Guernsey by JC Sauvery. The other books I used were secondary (Island Madness). The Occupation government did not allow letters to leave or enter the island, so there are only a few of the Red Cross postcards from the period. I didn't interview any Islanders.
I like to think that the actual residents of the occupied islands had such a wonderful distraction as the reading, if not the joys and comfort of a literary circle, don't you? I like the complement Dr. Stubbins paid to Juliet - With her article in the Times - she had made "distraction" an honorable term. Why would he say that?
Do you feel the word "distraction" is a dishonorable term for passing one's time? I am interested to hear more stories about how the isolated Islanders really got through the dreary years of occupation and intend to follow up on the sources mentioned here. I can see why Juliet feels there is a book here somewhere.
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JoanP, Since you are keeping reponses from Annie, I thought you might add this to your collection.
bellamarie to Annie:
"I don't know how the book ends as of today, but, what is the possibility of you writing Juliet's book, and bring Elizabeth's memorial to us readers?" I was a bit melancholy after reading Elizabeth was killed, and the thought of a sequel cheered me up.
Annie to bellamarie:
Dear Marie--
I'm so sorry to disappoint a melancholy reader, but I'm afraid there won't be a sequel to Guernsey. As the story originated with my aunt, I feel that a sequel would be an invasion. I am, however, writing another novel for grown-ups. It's not set in the Channel Islands during the war, but West Virginia in 1938.
Cheers,
Annie
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JoanP,
Elizabeth's story has been over for a long time...since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey.
I'm not so sure I agree, "Elizabeth's story is over", ... or "has been over for a long time....since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey."
I don't think Sidney feels its over either. On the contrary, I feel he is feeling her story needs to be told. Elizabeth's life is over, but her story, has not even yet been told. In these last few pages, of this week's assignment, we are just now hearing from people, that knew Elizabeth, that were not even a part of the prior letters. The pieces of the puzzle are just now beginning to fit into place, that will tell Elizabeth's story. There can be no closure, until all the pieces are revealed, by all that knew her and can complete her story, which I believe Mary Ann is doing in these pages and the ones to follow. Even Elizabeth's drawings, that Juliet found, are alive, and telling parts of her story.
Does anyone else have odd feelings about Juliet living in Elizabeth's cottage, going through her personal belongings, attaching herself to Kit, and resuming the place of Elizabeth? Although she is comforting the islanders, who were near and dear to Elizabeth, I feel in a sense she has assumed and invaded Elizabeth's privacy and life. It is one thing to come to the island to write articles about the life of Guernsey, and to become friends with those involved, but I just feel odd, she has stepped right into Elizabeth's life.
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Bellamarie, thank you for posting your response from Annie about forthcoming books. I can well understand her points. And it would really be sad if a sequel came out and was a disappointment because it didn’t live up to the original. That has happened. I am glad to hear that she is writing a novel for adults, West Virginia in 1938. Isn’t her and Mary Ann’s family from West Virginia?
More later. I just stopped in to scan and dinner beckons.
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Hi Pedlin
Here we are talking about another book (Mister Pip) in the midst of our discussion of GLPPPS. But how strange that both books are about small islands and very brutal happenings on those islands . In answer to your question my friend figured out approximately where the island was in relation to Australia and who the brutes were-the copper miners owners private army.
To return to the book in hand and in answer to one of the questions i.e. Is Dawsey a possible swain for Juliette?
As the book advances Dawsey takes on more and more flesh and bones and goodness of character . However he is still very different from the sophisticates she has known. If his depth of character be measured against the former men in her life then his maturity may be the thing that tips the weight in his favor. A lot depends on whether Juliette is ready to settle down on this island which she adores. However I am still not sure she adores it as a permanent place or the way we fall in love with an exciting and beautiful place which we visit for a long awaited vacation.
Next week all will be revealed.
Jude
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Jude seems to me Mr. Pep was one of the last 5 contenders for the Booker last year I remember being so pleased with myself because I did read 3 of the 5 – fascinating how the character of Pep was woven into that story wasn't it. Another story that included the horrors that man can inflict upon man.
OK – wasn't sure I could share my views in this discussion but decided to step into the water – as long as we can accept there is no “right” view - that as many an author will say - once the book is in the hands of the public it is no longer their story because we as readers all have our own history of experiences that we bring to what we read. As well, many authors have shared with us how they were astounded at the connections that we readers were able to make that further the point of their story that while writing, was not on their minds. And so with that said, I would like to add my two cents.
Someone in a more recent post said something to the affect that they wondered if the story was over with the death of Elizabeth – and I think it was Bellemaria who was emotionally caught over seeing Elizabeth acting out protective kindness – Well – that got me looking at Elizabeth in a different light – I am not sure she acted out of kindness or even protection of the women prisoner –
I see it as if Elizabeth snapped and no longer could tolerate cruel injustice – that led me to re-examine the other examples of her taking care of someone – I see her reacting to any sign of weakness or victimization as well as to others encouraging weakness or fear – she bucks-up Eli by getting him to spit twice on the medal - she does not just gently pin it on him as if he was a rabbit to be cuddled – she slaps Adelaide for preaching fear into the children – when we first read of the Literary society it is Elizabeth who is not going to be cowered by the Germans but with spunk come up with a bold rational for their after curfew outing.
Well that was the unraveling of the story for me – all of sudden what came to mind was ‘Rule Britannia’ – Elizabeth believed in the courage of lions – I looked to the story again and she is the child of a housekeeper who is brought up with all the advantages of a ruling class Englishwomen, that typically are characterized as intelligent, sensitive, sympathetic - another thought came to mind - Elizabeth is about justice not charity –
Charity responds to an immediate need, is socially acceptable, lauded by politicians and celebrities. Charity can buy you votes, a good feeling.
Justice promotes change in institutions, policies and systems; is socially, politically, and economically the biggest risk you'll ever take. Social justice can get you shot.
And so with that, I had to ask what is this story really about – what metaphors and themes are we dealing with in this story.
We may like or not the characters or see them differently than what has become common mythology but we know a story that has legs – that will last - is more than about likeable or admirable characters acting out a storyline.
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I see the story of Elizabeth inside the story of Juliet – Stanley may have suggested making the story about Elizabeth but the story is really about Juliet on a quest writing about these folks – their losses - a portrait of, including a portrait of herself, replacing a doomed personal life with a meaningful participation in a political world, in a community.
I look at some of the metaphors in this story – both Juliet and Elizabeth have the advantage of ruling class childhood in Britain and both act out childhood independence that continues in their adult life. They remind you of Conrad’s Emilia Gould, Britain incarnate - the ideal civilized woman who deny fatigue and substitute sadness for energy.
Hate to revisit the section about Rob with so many strong opinions of his behavior shared earlier in this discussion but I must share another perspective –
First of all I roared laughing while reading that bit – two thoughts – I had only shared a discussion the night before with someone I know and love, who was being outraged over all the money and attention that a University puts into Football and Basketball when in her mind the University should be about the purity of education using the mind, not athleticism. And so here, we had the classic argument played out with books versus athletic trophies – a riot –
And then the second thought was - had any woman joined him in his house and while he was out she packed up half his workshop tools so she could have a place for her Christmas wrapping ribbons and paper you could hear it now – and rightly, since there was no asking what tool [books] were important – the packing was done with no care for what the owner would choose to cull from their collection.
But more, it tipped us that he was joining her in HER house – and so where that scenario showed us she was all about books and to damage or discard a book was as if you blackened her eye or pulled out her fingernails, the books were more important than a relationship. Which said her identity was more important and she was going to protect her turf so that her identity was not moved aside.
And so like Elizabeth, she snapped when it was about protecting what she believed regardless of the consequences – Now we may argue over her choice of what she protected but from the story we know that she and her books were one and the same – we may have handled it differently but let’s see what this says about the theme of the story because that is what we are trying to identify.
Now Mark was an easy one for me to catch – my cousin married an English Sailor just before we entered the war and she lived out the war in England – she came back with her 5 month old son in ’49, when I was a Jurnior in high school - Ken, her husband had to wait on the quota and came two years later with their daughter who was just past 2 when Florence left England – at that time age 2 was the break off to travel on a mother’s passport.
I remember baby sitting and seeing Florence package boxes of food and soap that when I questioned I was shocked to learn they were still experiencing the shortages we experienced during the war but more, I learned of the average English view of Americans – we were all spit and polish but we were not supposed to have the courage and stamina since we did not experience bombs falling on us – they were upset because the GI came with gifts from the canteen but took the girls and even married them when the English boys were tired and worn fighting in Africa – and so where the Yanks were a blessing they were also considered lightweights who charmed themselves into the community and took the girls from under the helpless noises of the Tommies – then, after the war, because Eisenhower was the allied leader rather than Montgomery, there was this whole concept that the Americans liked to tell the Europeans how it is done.
And so it was easy for me to see that Mark cast as a polished, wealthy, American was saying something about his character since this was an English story – That he would not be marrying Juliet because if he did the story would be a slap in the face to the courage and pride of Britain. More and more I am seeing a theme here that is the courage of Britain.
Then it hit me – of course, we are told the whole book in the first paragraph of a story. Back to page one – I would say in this book it is all on the first page rather then limited to the first paragraph.
There it is – indomitable, regardless of rations, a celebration demands a level of civilized cuisine and the ingredients were procured with money relegated to a lesser value then keeping the proper entremets for the celebration – it is about English Foibles under extraordinary conditions – these are not English Bunny feel good stories and characters, even if the countryside, the location of the stories, is the stuff of Beatrix Potter.
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I've more I would like to share but later tomorrow - this invite I thought delightful - Seaton Cove is a place in Austin where interesting discussions are scheduled and an Austin lawyer who is a political activist and poet will chair for two Thursday's in a row a luncheon meeting to discuss The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society from a different perspective.
The invitation is --
A serendipitous discovery in a used book leads to the unearthing of a community of like-minded literary eccentrics on an Island in post WWII England. This enchanting book, by Mary Ann Shaffer and Annie Barrows, will lead us into a light-hearted discussion of how we each found our own love of literature and how it has strengthened our spiritual quests. That and an exercise in our own letter writing will make for two delightful luncheons of discussion and reflection.
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I envy you the live discussion of Guernsey. I love our methods of communication, but it would be fun to be in a give and take live one.
I know that I must be a solo one, but I do think about all of you, the people now of Seniorlearn.. I put dream faces and /or personalities just from your posts. I know how much fun it was when we went to Charleston to the beach for the week. Then we got to put faces on all of these people you think you know so well..
Personal letters in the mail.. Cant remember the last one. Probably thank yous and things.
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Good morning, Early Birds! Barbara, when do you sleep!? You left us so much to think about today in your long meaty post!
Steph - can you imagine the spirited conversation in a give and take discussion of this book! Do you think everyone would be talking at once? I do remember some of the face to face SN gatherings in the past. It was really weird at first to find yourself talking to someone you've never laid eyes on - a totally unfamiliar face, and yet someone you "know" very well from daily online conversation. It doesn't take long to get over the "strange face" part, does it? I guess you have to leave behind the "dream faces" and connect with the familiar personalities...
Juliet wondered what the Guernsey letter writers would look like...if Dawsey would like like Charles Lamb. What did she mean? She did send Dawsey a portrait of CL, but did she expect him to physically resemble the writer? I think her "dream face" and his actual face was exactly what she expected.
OK, back to Barbara and Jude's late night posts...need to reread them carefully...and if I forget, thank you much for the early morning coffee chat!
ps. Barbara. are up going to accept the invite? I certainly hope so! Would love it if you returned here, or to the Fiction discussion and give us a report as to how it went.
"...a light-hearted discussion of how we each found our own love of literature and how it has strengthened our spiritual quests."
This would be an interesting topic for us right here, don't you think?
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Is Dawsey a possible swain for Juliette?
Jude..."As the book advances Dawsey takes on more and more flesh and bones and goodness of character." I'm wondering if this means that Juliet is attracted to him? Is she finding something in Dawsey that is lacking in Mark. Poor Mark, he doesn't stand a chance does he? Did you sort of recoil at all his reasons why he and Juliet were "right" together?
Here's something I had stored in the back of my mind...about Charles Lamb and Dawsey.
For whatever reason, he and his sister Mary adopted an orphan girl, Emma Isola.
Charles never married - and when Mary died, he raised Emma Isola himself - alone.
Clearly our authors have examined this bit of Lamb's biography. I have wondered if it foreshadows a similar situration with Dawsey and Kit?
Jude, I'm not sure that Juliet wants to stay in Guernsey either, once her book is finsihed. Is she a London girl at heart? I'm quite sure she doesn't want to go to NY with Mark, but she is fitting right into the Guernsey society isn't she?
Does anyone else have odd feelings about Juliet living in Elizabeth's cottage, ...going through her personal belongings she has assumed and invaded Elizabeth's privacy and life? Bellamarie
I agree that Juliet has filled a void Elizabeth has left in the lives of the members ...and Kit. But I don't think it was unusual that she would be interested in Elizabeth's books and drawings that are in the cottage. She is a writer, after all. Plus, it was not Juliet's idea that she rent Elizabeth's cottage - the Islanders had arranged it for her...
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"I see the story of Elizabeth inside the story of Juliet – Stanley may have suggested making the story about Elizabeth but the story is really about Juliet on a quest writing about these folks – their losses - a portrait of, including a portrait of herself, replacing a doomed personal life with a meaningful participation in a political world, in a community." Barbara
I don't think I'm going to comment on everything that Barbara has posted concerning Elizabeth in the wee small hours - will leave that to all of you.
But I would like to pose a question for your consideration:
At this point in the story, what do you see as the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book -
a. Elizabeth's role in protecting and sustaining the oppressed during the occupation.
b. Juliet's role in writing a book about how individuals coped with the Occupation
c. The members of the literary society and how reading and discussing books sustained them during the days of the occupation and afterwards.
d. Other
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JUDE, I envy your correspondent with the 'beautiful handwriting'. Mine was never beautiful, but it was at least legible before I learned to type. Over the years, I used the typewriter, then the computer, more and more, until now I have lost all legibility. I want to write as fast as I can type, and the results are really bad. :-[
Bellamarie, I love your plan to give your granddaughter a handwritten letter for the occasion of her confirmation. I'm sure she will treasure it.
On you comment: "she (juliet) has stepped right into Elizabeth's life."
I did feel that Juliet was beginning to help fill the void that Elizabeth left amond her friends in Guernsey. I was glad, tho', that JoanP pointed out that it was the islanders who decided to prepare her cottage for Juliet's visit; it wasn't Juliet's idea.
"Elizabeth is about justice not charity".
I think you are right about this, Barb. Elizabeth was kind and she was protective, but it was cruelty and injustice that brought the strongest reaction. I think you are also right that fighting against injustice can make you a target. There is more than one example of that in history.
I think it was Sidney's reaction to news of Elizabeth's death that I most identified with, as the most appropriate response from someone other than her close friends... “God damn. Oh, God damn.”
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JoanP Thanks for the wake-up call. I've been lurking about but haven't had the energy to get involved in the discussion since the bushfire disaster took over Australia's heart and mind. - we have family in the affected areas and though they are all safe it has been a worrying time. - and fires are still burning over large areas. It has been a very emotional and draining period as the legion of heart rending stories unfold of those who lost everything they owned, of those who only just escaped the firestorm - and of the 200+ souls who didn't make it.
The discussion here has really taken off and raised so many questions and issues. Wonderful to have the contact and input from Annie Burrows.
You ask : what was the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book.
I believe the points you pose at a. b. & c. are important elements in the book but I don't see them as being the primary aim of the author.
I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves. I believe she felt this little piece of WWII history was neglected in literature and needed to be aired - and she chose the medium of an epistolary novel to tell the tale.
That she achieved this end is evident in our discussion where posters have made it clear that they formerly knew little or nothing of Guernsey's Occupation by Germans and perhaps less still of Guernsey
itself.
I see Elizabeth's role in 'protecting and sustaining the oppressed' to be representative of many on Guernsey and elsewhere who undertook incredible acts of self-sacrifice to help and protect their fellows in wartime .
To me Juliet's role in writing a book about how individuals coped is one of the devices Mary Ann uses to tell her story. Juliet and Elizabeth are very alike - superficially they slap faces and throw teapots - but fundamentally they are alike in that neither has a real home. I think they both need to be needed are are seaching for a place in which to belong. Elizabeth found her place with Christian Hellman - I guess Juliet is still a work in progress.
The literary society and their reading was an inspired masterstroke as it allowed Mary Ann to not only talk about some of her favourite authors and their works but to develop her characters in relation to their reading, She shows us how reading can change an individual and draws attention to the solace reading can bring in times of stress. Though I'd say she's preaching to the converted here at Seniorlearn!
Almost 1am - well it is, now -so this 'tooth fairy' is off to bed. G'Nite all.
PS: The Book Thief mentioned above by JudeS would also make for a great discussion - as would The Reader - both have much to say about reading.
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JoanP
In answer to your question about the meaning of this novel and the author's intentions. A book starts out as one thing and after a while gathers its own momentum and often includes ideas that the author hadn't planned at the outset. sometimes the characters themselves demand to say things that the author writes but is surprised by.
In my mind I see a parallel to a prisoner in a cell who has unfairly been jailed. He knows that it is a terrible mistake but he still has to maintain himself through the time. He will think mainly of these things:
The fight to regain his freedom
Reading Books that keep his courage alive and in which courage and justice are rewarded.
The loved ones he has left behind
If we move the idea of a single prisoner in his lonely cell to an island cut off from the world (no radio or newspapers) and we have an insulated society trying to cope. Then FREEDOM! How do we cope with the changeover? How do we pick up the pieces based on all the things we learned during incarceration?
Perhaps as a child Shaffer read , as I did, the ultimate Island story: Robinson Crusoe. Here a man is isolated on an island J
and copes and hopes. Then" Friday" appears and so much changes. Another human to share the fate and the pain and help find solutions.
Just as Robinson Crusoe got under my skin as a child so does this book hold me.
Jude
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Gumtree, I am so sorry to hear of your conditions and the losses of the people in Australia. How terribly sad it must be. Imagine, us going on about the desvastation of WW 11, and here you are experiencing such devastations and pain. My prayers are with you and all of Australia.
JoanP, I agree that Juliet has filled a void Elizabeth has left in the lives of the members ...and Kit. But I don't think it was unusual that she would be interested in Elizabeth's books and drawings that are in the cottage. She is a writer, after all. Plus, it was not Juliet's idea that she rent Elizabeth's cottage - the Islanders had arranged it for her...
I'm aware the islanders decided for Juliet to stay in Elizabeth's cottage. My concern, is , that she assumed Elizabeth's place almost instantly. Being a writer, does not excuse her violating Elizabeth's personal things. My suspicions are, Juliet will not stay in Guernsey. She came for material to write articles and now seems to think there is a possible book. She was anxious to meet the people in the letters, she made friendships with them, but ultimately, she is not an islander, and I can't see her marrying Dawsey, raising Kit, and living happily ever after in Guernsey. I think Dawsey is a bright enough man to realize this.
BarbStAubrey, Elizabeth is about justice not charity –
Charity responds to an immediate need, is socially acceptable, lauded by politicians and celebrities. Charity can buy you votes, a good feeling.
Justice promotes change in institutions, policies and systems; is socially, politically, and economically the biggest risk you'll ever take. Social justice can get you shot.
I respectfully must disagree with your definition of Charity. I see charity as an act of Christianity. It is a virtue. (a commendable quality or trait .)
I looked up the definition:
Main Entry: char·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ˈcher-ə-tē, ˈcha-rə-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural char·i·ties
Etymology: Middle English charite, from Anglo-French charité, from Late Latin caritat-, caritas Christian love, from Latin, dearness, from carus dear; akin to Old Irish carae friend, Sanskrit kāma love
Date: 13th century
1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
2 a: generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering ; also : aid given to those in need b: an institution engaged in relief of the poor c: public provision for the relief of the needy
3 a: a gift for public benevolent purposes b: an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift
4: lenient judgment of others
synonyms see mercy
Now this is the definition of justice:
Main Entry: jus·tice
Pronunciation: \ˈjəs-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French justise, from Latin justitia, from justus
Date: 12th century
1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b: judge c: the administration of law ; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c: the quality of conforming to law
3: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness
So..while I can agree, Elizabeth acted out against the injustices being done, I feel it was the virtue of charity that caused her to feel the need to react at all.
In essence, it was charity and justice together, that caused Elizabeth's reactions.
In saying this. I must ask if she was reckless and irresponsible, considering she had a small child, who's life would be effected by her actions. Truth in point, Kit now has to be raised by many, rather than her mother. Although, I suspect, we possibly, have not seen the last of her father.
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Pedln: I'm still here! I have been holding down the other end of the couch which has been thoughtfully supplied for lurkers! I finished our book some time ago, just couldn't help it!! - but have been faithfully following the discussion and finding that it has been sending me back to re-read portions of the text.
I love it that the book has brought other books to our attention. I did get "The Book of Ebenezer le Page" and am well into it while my sister has already finished her copy. The style of writing brings the island speech so much to life - this is such an enjoyable book that I hope some of you folks will manage to get hold of it.
Jude: By the way," Robinson Crusoe" seems to be Ebenezer"s only book that I've noticed so far!
Our county interloan system has sent me "Elizabeth and Her German Garden" in a very beat-up paperback. It looks like a keeper though so I'll have to invest in a new paperback from Amazon - it's not expensive.
Barbara - You have given me much to think about as have all of you. I've been enjoying this discussion so much.
Gum: I have been reading about the dreadful fires in Australia and my heart goes out to you all.
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JoanP, At this point in the story, what do you see as the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book -
In the words of one of the authors herself, Annie Barrows:
"Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love.
The wonderful thing about books—and the thing that made them such a refuge for the islanders during the Occupation—is that they take us out of our time and place and understanding and transport us, not just into the world of the story, but into the world of our fellow-readers, who have stories of their own.
Its members are spread all over the world, but they are joined by their love of books, of talking about books, and of their fellow readers. We are transformed—magically—into the literary society each time we pass a book along, each time we ask a question about it, each time we say, “If you liked that, I bet you’d like this.” Whenever we are willing to be delighted and share our delight, as Mary Ann did, we are part of the on-going story of The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
In it she offers, for our enjoyment, a catalogue of her delights—the oddities that enchanted her, the expressions that entertained her, and above all, the books that she adored.
Suddenly, the rest of the world had a seat at the table where I had been feasting my whole life, and, as with any family party, they clustered around Mary Ann, weeping with laughter—or sorrow—as her stories billowed forth.
I feel her focus was to entertain, inform, and enlighten, her readers, to all that she had to offer and cherish about her love of books. Guernsey is her stage, and all the characters are the actors and actresses. She of course is the producer and director. We the readers, her audience applaud her wonderful story, and storytelling. I am honored to have a seat at her table/theater. Bravo!!!!!
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Oh dear Bellamaria - those are famous words about Justice and Charity - there are organizations and web sites about the difference -
http://www.starthrowerfoundation.org/social-justice.html
http://tiny.cc/SpoWW
The impulse to act based on charity or justice can each bring about a different result - since we are looking for what the characters represent so that we may find the themes within a book - we may all be discovering different themes - Charity may build a theme supported by other metaphors then a theme and metaphor using Justice -
Bellamarie I do not think we need to disagree because we are not building concensus - my life, as your life is different - the reading you have experienced I am sure is different then the reading I have experienced - we come from a differing view of the world - no book is based on one view - if it were it would not become a classic - the well written book allows all of us to open rooms in our hearts and minds - If you notice even the characters in this story disagree with famous author's assessments of life and what is important to include in a book -
I think what we do here is read someone's assessment that opens us to a deeper look at the issue - for some of us we may have a similar understanding - also some viewpoints are based on accepted myths but some are individually understood and sharing that individual understanding is what has always made discussing books on SeniorNet so rich - I know we are no longer SeniorNet but we are carrying on the traditions that were set back in the 1990s - and so please - we are not acting like a jury where we have to argue till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result.
For me, I am seeing these characters as portraying the strong indomitable spirit that with grace and belief in themselves while not only coming through these historical times but like barnacles to a rock keep their identity alive. And yes, I agree both Juliet and Elizabeth were from Britain so that they brought an added dimension with different myths governing their instincts. The folks on Guernsey opened their arms and hearts to both women and to Booker, another Brit - the backgrounds of all the characters add riches to their continuing story just as the Germans added to the story and will continue to affect Guernsey through Kit.
In fact to me that is the hardest thing to learn and be at peace with - Ambiguity - so much more of life is ambiguous where as most of us were taught in childhood to consider life in black and white terms - right versus wrong - I think it intersting that we remark about 'good' Germans where as soldiers from our own armies we isolate as bad apples or we do not acknowledge in literature their cruelties - Next on my pile is to read a few of Schlink's books and I was mesmerized by the PBS special featuring Monika Hertwig, daughter of Nazi Amon Goeth.
Even on Guernsey there were some who betrayed their neighbor and so all was not trust and good will among the oppressed. And so, where I agree the character Elizabeth acted out charitable acts for me I saw her instinct to be more than love but rather from an innate sense of justice - Bellamaria it appears you and others may not see that and that is OK - we are simply seeing different themes in this book.
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Owww Judi your post about being a prisoner and Robinson Caruso etc. opened me to another thought - what floated in was the expression "No Man is an Island" - well of course I had to refresh my memory of how Donne used the expression and found it...
"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
And then I had a thought - each individual could be an island unto himself after the Germans disrupted their usual means of communication and pattern of life - like prisoners - but what I am seeing here is that by reading we add to our individual imprisonment another voice and that voice then can be a conduit for community as it was for those who attended the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
But further, it says to me with the voices of authors in our heads regardless the imprisonment of our bodies we are not an Island separated by our prison.
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BarbStAubrey,
I know we are no longer SeniorNet but we are carrying on the traditions that were set back in the 1990s - and so please - we are not acting like a jury where we have to argue till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result.
Bellamaria it appears you and others may not see that and that is OK - we are simply seeing different themes in this book.
Please accept my apology, if in my reply it indicated, I was "arguing my point till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result." I with all due respect, did not intend to convince anyone, to see things my way. I do play the devil's advocate alot, which puts me on the other side of views, which I feel can give us all another perspective. Yes, I agree, "we come from a differing view of the world", and it truly is okay, that we and others may see different themes in this book.
There is no right or wrong, two people can read the same sentence and see a totally different interpretation and come away with different feelings. That is the fun of discussing books. Can you imagine the differences of opinions with the GLAPPPS? Lo and behold, I can only imagine if Adelaide would have participated. lolol ::)
You have my sincere apology, if in any way you or anyone, saw my post argumentative or offensive.
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Not to belay this point further but I must add some of us learned so long ago that it is difficult to write and have others hear what and how we say things because we are all reading with our own voice - I am sure your enthusiasm for the story and how the characters relate to those in your life call you to justify the lives of those you hold dear - great - but please - some of us do not look at characters in a book without understanding they are there to further not only the story but the intent behind the story and so where they remind us of folks in our lives and we feel for them as if they were real we know that their characterizations are for us to examine and find the metaphor or advance a theme. No disrespect to you, and your loved ones is intended. Whew - OK - lets move on - great - Bellamarie I wish we were where we could pickup our cup of coffee or tea or glass of wine, nod and go on to the next bit of wonderment that we will be discovering while reading this book.
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JoanP and Pedln,
Yesterday the local book group discussed The Elegance of the Hedgehog, and it was quite a discussion!!
Since I had suggested the book, I made I sure I was thoroughly prepared. Some members confessed
"they couldn't get into it", and those of us who loved it urged them to continue, and assured them that do so would be well worth the effort.
Even so, de gustibus non est disputandum ...
Now I need to catch up on the Raj Quartet site but will return to this folder in short order to answer personal questions.
Gumtree, I have followed the horrible tragedy of the bushfires in southwest Australia and the national mourning. Small wonder there was also impotent rage when it was learned that arson was the cause (and that copycat fires were lit afterwards). A friend e-mailed me a series of pictures which I found almost impossible to view.
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To pick up on the theme.. I really agree that c: the islanders stories is what interests me the most in the book. The story of Elizabeth is one of those over and over stories of the war. There were so many heros and heroines, who died for various reasons. The camp stories alone can rend your heart. I once spent about six months reading a wide variety of stories of the camps and the aftermaths.
Soo. I find the island very interesting indeed. The germans reacted a bit differently than their normal occupation. I think because they were not fighting all the time. A closed society is always interesting.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 15-21 Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
1. How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers, sometimes friendly, sometimes brutal? Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted? Ever?
2. What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick? Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you? Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth" anecdote?
4. What did you think of Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another? Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb? Do you see him as a possible "swain" for Juliet?
6. Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet? From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
Bellamarie: BarbStAubrey, "Bellamarie I wish we were where we could pickup our cup of coffee or tea or glass of wine, nod and go on to the next bit of wonderment that we will be discovering while reading this book."
I prefer Lambrusco, Salute' ;)
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Good morning, everyone! So many items on the table in here for today - and I would like to address your comments of yesterday on the purpose of this book -
a. Elizabeth's story, her role in protecting and sustaining the oppressed during the occupation.
b. Juliet's story, writing a book about how individuals coped with the Occupation
c. The members of the literary society and how reading and discussing books sustained them during the days of the occupation and afterwards.
d. Other
It seems we need to expand the OTHER category, doesn't it?
I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves. I believe she felt this little piece of WWII history was neglected in literature and needed to be aired - and she chose the medium of an epistolary novel to tell the tale. Gumtree
The germans reacted a bit differently than their normal occupation. I think because they were not fighting all the time. A closed society is always interesting Steph
Steph, I think this is probably what motivated Mary Ann Shaffer to research and take all those notes on the occupation of the Channel Islands back in 1980...and inspired the rest of the book. I would like to read more about this "closed society" and the effects it had on both the occupied and the occupiers. I would really like to get my hands on the collection of interviews in the book Annie Barrows mentioned in her response to Pedln - The Diary of the German Occupation of Guernsey by JC Sauvery.
A book starts out as one thing and after a while gathers its own momentum and often includes ideas that the author hadn't planned at the outset. sometimes the characters themselves demand to say things that the author writes but is surprised by. Jude
Jude, I love your observation. A book does take on a life of its own once it enters the hands of the reader, doesn't it?
Yesterday, bellamarie posted a quote from the author -
- The wonderful thing about books—and the thing that made them such a refuge for the islanders during the Occupation—is that they take us out of our time and place and understanding and transport us, not just into the world of the story, but into the world of our fellow-readers, who have stories of their own. Annie Barrows
Gum, such a relief to welcome you back. The fact that your heart isn't really into it is understandable. The arson fires were despicable, as Traudee said last night - but the brush fires remain such a cause of concern. Is the lack of rain normal for this time of year? Is there a rainy season in the near future?
Perhaps your participation here can succeed in transporting you from the present situation, a "refuge" at least for a little while
I find myself pondering Elizabeth's actions - after reading your post yesterday, Barbara. I too see Elizabeth reacting to incidents of injustice, who called her actions "reckless" yesterday - was it you, bellamarie? Surely leaving Kit motherless (and fatherless) was not taken into consideration when she took it on herself to stop the beating of her fellow prisoner.
Such a fine line between justice and charity! It is hard to tell what Elizabeth's motivations were. This may be because we don't hear from Elizabeth herself, as we do the others in their letters.
Unlike you, JoanR, I am not sitting in Lurkers' Corner eating Will Thisbee's pie just yet - haven't learned what more might be revealed in the final quartile of the book about Elizabeth. (Look forward to hearing from all of our LURKERS soon!)
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Juliet is still a work in progress. Gum
Oh, I do agree with you, Gum! What will the authors do with this character, once she completes her book? Will she stay - settle down, marry Dawsey maybe? I don't think that Mark has a chance anymore - notice how she is "pretending" that he doesn't exist anymore. Besides, he has a new rumba partner now, doesn't he?
But what about Sidney? I think that Juliet and Sidney are on the same wavelength - would make the ideal pair - if indeed Juliet will "pair" with anyone. Babi , Sidney's reaction to the news of Elizabeth's death really shows how much the people on Guernsey mean to him - nearly as much as they do to Elizabeth, don't you think?
Has anyone ever heard of the "Dead Bride Game" Juliet and Kit enjoy playing? Why is it mentioned here? Does it refer to Juliet - her relationship with Mark is now dead in the water, she will turn down his proposal? Or does it suggest that marriage, walking down the aisle as a bride is just not in the cards for Juliet?
I keep remembering that the authors haven't put any references without meaning in these pages...
Have a fine day everyone - especially you, Gum!
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BELLAMARIE, thanks for the quote from Annie Barrows about the purpose of the book. That is not something we could have know just from the book itself, though the book certainly succeeds in that objective.
About charity,...of course it is a virtue. I think Joan's point is that it is a
socially valued and praised virtue, whereas those who fight against social injustices generally find themselves with many enemies.
Q. Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
Indeed, I think it is very significant. I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there. Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life, either. Sidney has already shown how much he cares about the people Juliet is meeting. Both Sidney and Juliet's new friends will be delighted with one another.
That is not to say I consider Sidney a marriage prospect for Juliet...not at all.
Sidney's closest relationship, other than his sister, of course, is his poet friend.
A couple of letters that I think deserve a mention: Juliet wrote to Sidney about Jonas' Skeeters 'presentation' to the club. I must object to Jonas Skeeter calling Marcus Aurelius ‘an old woman-forever taking his minds temperature’. I happen to like Marcus Aurelius ’Meditations’. He was an introspective person, as I am. Hasn’t it been said that the unexamined life isn’t worth living?
I grant you there was one period in my life when I carried self-examination too far, questioning my motives on everything I did. Being a balanced person, however, I soon realized this and called a halt. 8)
I did have to giggle, tho’, when Jonas said, “Bloody hen that he was, he never had a tiny thought that he couldn’t turn into a sermon.”
Then, a letter from a Henry Toussant, describes the drowning of the women from the German brothel, apparently all conscripted from conquered countries, just as the slave labor was. Mr. Toussant describes the deplorable attitude of his aunt and mother on this occasion and his outraged reaction. I read with great satisfaction the line: “My aunt says she will never set foot in our house again, and Mother hasn’t spoken to me since that day. I find I all very peaceful.”
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Oh my, come late to the party and you miss all the fun.
First of all, I’m so glad to see JoanR and Gumtree again. That’s a terrible situation in your country, Gum, and you must heartsick about it. I hope all will be well for your family in the area. JoanR, glad you got Ebeneezer. I’ll ask my girls to check it out from NYPL or Brooklyn during my next visit.
Barbara, welcome. So glad you finally got here. It’s always good to have another opinion that we can agree with or disagree with or agree to disagree with.
Dead Bride. I love the Dead Bride game. I won’t say it doesn’t mean anything, but I think it’s one of those typical made-up-by-four-year-olds games, based on what they know. I won’t even speculate on Kit’s visions or ideas of death. But little girls love weddings (my grandd went to one and nothing would do but she had to have a wedding dress) and somewhere our bright little Kit has heard of or seen a bride. But what a lovely game to play with Juliet because it gets Kit lots of attention, Juliet acts so funny and goofy (according to Kit) and all ends with big hugs. It’s one way that Kid lets Juliet know she likes her.
JoanP, do you think Juliet cares that Mark has a new rhumba partner/
Going back to and thinking about Gum’s statement I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves.
I certainly think that was one of the purposes. Like the island of Mr. Pip, Guernsey (and the other Channel Islands) fell through the cracks in regard to their governing parents. Great Britain demilitarized the Channel Island 13 days before they were attacked (and then neglected to inform Germany that there would be no opposition so they wouldn’t need to attack.)
According to Bunting, after liberation there was a lot of criticism of the islanders, that they didn’t behave like true Britains. They didn’t fight, they had no resistance, there was collaboration, fraternization, they tried to get along or accommodate. The islanders felt this was unjust, that they had behaved in the best way they could, and tended to close ranks against outsideres. Adelaide was a pain, but this may be part of why she was so against Juliet coming.
I think Shaffer was finding many reasons or purposes for this book, as have been mentioned about. This is almost like a book within a book. We have Mary Ann’s book, and now Juliet’s book that is trying to take shape.
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JoanP,
I too see Elizabeth reacting to incidents of injustice, who called her actions "reckless" yesterday - was it you, bellamarie? Surely leaving Kit motherless (and fatherless) was not taken into consideration when she took it on herself to stop the beating of her fellow prisoner.
I asked the question, would anyone consider her reckless and irresponsible, considering she had a small child who would be effected by her actions. I guess for some, when they are in the throws of a situation, they don't have the logic to stop and think of the consequences. Elizabeth seemed to be a person who acted on implulse and emotion from a small child into her adulthood. She took many risks. Not that I am judging or criticizing her, because we need people like Elizabeth in the world. They generally are remembered, as "the fallen heroes."
Such a fine line between justice and charity! It is hard to tell what Elizabeth's motivations were. This may be because we don't hear from Elizabeth herself, as we do the others in their letters. JoanP
JoanP, Very good point. We can only bring our own personal thoughts and feelings, into trying to deduce her motivations.
Babi, You are very welcome, and interesting observation..."whereas those who fight against social injustices generally find themselves with many enemies." Or dead, in many cases, as in Elizabeth's.
I wondered where Mary Ann came up with the Dead Bride game, and because she got so much of her ideas from books she read, I went on a google, yahoo, dogpile hunt. Here is the only thing I could find remotely to image her reading related to a Dead Bride. lolol
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0604201h.html
I picked a few paragraphs, it is amusing enough to read the entire story.
THE DEAD BRIDE
by Anonymous
Translated from the French (1812) by Marjorie Bowen
I could only learn of a wild anecdote. This 'Dead Bride' had lived in the valley in the fourteenth or fifteenth century. She was a noble lady who had conducted herself towards her lover with such ingratitude and perfidy that he died of chagrin. In the conclusion, when she was about to be married to someone else he appeared on her wedding night and she died. The legend was that the spirit of this unhappy creature wandered on the earth as a penance and took all manner of forms, particularly those of charming creatures, to render lovers unfaithful. As it was not permitted to her to re-clothe herself in the appearance of a living person she appeared under the disguise of girls lately deceased and if possible under the shape of one who resembled her the most.
"It was for this reason that her formless ghost haunted the château where she had once lived, and, if occasion offered, took on the likeness of a dead young girl of the house to which she had once belonged. She was also said to haunt galleries and museums in search of dead beauties whose charms she could assume for the undoing of some living, faithful lover. These dismal pilgrimages were to be repeated in punishment for her perfidy until she found the man so faithful that she was not able to induce him to forget his living betrothed. This had not yet occurred.
"No, he must have returned, we have seen no one. He has disappeared," said the officer, smiling, and he forced them to search every place in the room. But this was useless. The whole house was turned upside down in vain, and on the morrow the officer left Bad Nauheim without his prisoner, and much chagrined.
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Okay, its a stretch of the imagination, but I did find it amusing. Gollywogs and Dead Bride games. She sure can keep us on our toes.
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The Dead Bride game was a new one on me - it did remind me of playing "Hot Potato" which involved hiding, usually a can of beans but some sort of food in a jar or can and as everyone searched the one hiding would call out if the seekers were hot or cold based on how close to the object - and then who ever found it was smothered in hugs and kisses accompanied by a great deal of giggling. Come to think of it the game always ended when mom started the evening meal because the "Hot Potato" was needed for the meal.
A realization I had last night is where I do not know if this is a purpose I do see it as a Theme and that is everyone is dealing with Loss. Juliet looses her parents when only a child, there is the loss of freedom, food, communication, livelyhood, pets, homes destroyed, Books and Libraries destroyed, the loss of family members, anonymity, till Elizabeth looses her life - some loses were chosen as Booker watched the boat to Britain leave without him just as Elizabeth stayed too long to be with Jane - I see much of the story built around how the various characters deal with loss so that even we the readers are brought into the loss. I do not know about y'all but when Elizabeth was put to death I cried tears - it has been years since I actually cried while reading a book.
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A Post Script on Charity versus Justice - I assumed it was a driving issue all over the nation but maybe not - many of us here are part of a group called Christians for a Fair Economy and we take our lead from the Institute for Policy Studies which turns Ideas into Action for Peace, Justice and the Environment.
Here is their web site: http://www.ips-dc.org/
With that initiative a local artist has created a Silk Screen Tiger in shades of black to gray with dark green eyes and an interesting shaped background to the Tiger with the words Justice - Justice Shalt Thou Pursue. My friend turned the Silk Screen into cards that on the back is printed a quote from Judges - Deuteronomy, 16:18-20
These cards are wonderful bookmarks and have been sent to all the local community leaders and many of the State Legislators and anyone in the news who is acting to make change that will affect the future. Therefore, the concept we learned as children about giving a man a fishing pole rather than a fish is very much on my mind and I saw Elizabeth initiating even on the most personal level encouragement for folks to handle their future. Example: the courage Eli needed to use for his years in England rather than just a hug to see to his immediate fears and the belief that Sally would grow into her elegant nose rather than handling her immediate concern over her shaved and lanced head and even the Literary Society was developed as an ongoing meeting rather than a one night event. And so that is behind how I saw Elizabeth reacting with Justice.
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Just read the information you found Bellamarie on the Dead Bride - interesting - and in some ways it reminds me of the story so popular in this part of the country with our High Mexican population of La Llorona - in fact it was only a couple of years ago they had to call school off for over week in Lockhart, a community just south of Austin because the girls were sure La Llorona was in the girls bathroom - the fear was unbelievable and they would not use the Bathroom and then the mothers cooberated the fear so the school had to close down and the bathroom was remodeled.
La Llorona grabs children and drowns them - http://www.literacynet.org/lp/hperspectives/llorona.html
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BarbStAubrey,
I do not know about y'all but when Elizabeth was put to death I cried tears - it has been years since I actually cried while reading a book.
Oh my goodness, I read about Elizabeth's death on Valentine's day. I had to get ready to go out to dinner and a movie, with my hubby, and I could barely motivate myself to be happy. I was so filled with sadness and melancholy, I wrote to Annie Barrows, which did make me feel better. The next day, no one was commenting on the death, and I just felt so alone in my sadness. I assumed everyone must be dealing with this in their own silence. This book is going to stay with me long after this discussion closes. The descriptive cruelty in these pages, this week, has been far beyond my comprehension. I am the "idealist teacher', the romantic, and avoid movies and books that leave these images in me.
Barb, Thank you for a more clearer understanding, on your views of justice. I feel you, and I reacted from a place, we are most familiar, and dear to. Interesting article on La Llorona.
pedln, I think Shaffer was finding many reasons or purposes for this book, as have been mentioned about. This is almost like a book within a book. We have Mary Ann’s book, and now Juliet’s book that is trying to take shape.
This is exactly how I feel, and what prompted me to email Annie, asking if she had considered writing Juliet's book, as a sequel to this one. Of course I completely understand her saying, "As the story originated with my aunt, I feel that a sequel would be an invasion."
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Barb
As I was walking away from the computer last night I realized that I had forgotten to include the words of John Donne. Thank you for doing it for me.
Gumtree-
The horrors of the fires were for us in California just a reminder of the fires we have experienced here. Those that took many lives and disturbed so many other lives. Life does go on and I hope they find the arsonists . If they are not caught they are all too likely to set further fires. Sometimes a fire is set by a silly prankster but most serious fires are set by arsonists, about 80% of whom have been sexually abused as children. I don't want to go into the psychological reasons for this but, having worked with juvenile fire setters, they need massive amounts of therapy and have to be locked up while receiving it. Even then the chances for improvement aren't perfect.
Back to the novel-
For me, Elizabeth has not come alive, except in the person of her daughter. Perhaps the last quarter of the story will change my mind. Most novels have figures in them that are there to move the action forward while they , themselves
are not important to the present happenings. With so many vibrant personalities flitting about, Elizabeth recedes into history-having played her part and departed. That is not to say that her part was unimportant.
Jude
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When i read of Elizabeth's last act, i tho't she knew she was going to die in the prison camp in some way. She has acted against injustice thruout the story as Barbara commented, so she would act in this situation, maybe choosing her reason, and time, of death. .................... jean
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Bellamarie has sent me looking for more dead brides. And they abound in literature, so I think that Kit, hiding under the table at the Literary Society meetings heard all kinds of things, no doubt including some that she shouldn’t. But kids adapt things to what they understand or know.
These lines are by George Eliot.
"Am I not thine alone, a dear dead bride
Who blest thy lot above all men's beside?"
Jason had a dead bride, murdered by a jealous Medea.
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Jude, I have to agree with you - Elizabeth seems almost mythical to me, not a living woman, mother, who would risk nothing as dangerous as this if she had been thinking of her daughter at all. As I understand what happened, she had witnessed one beating too many (this couldn't have been the first time) and lost it. I'm not even sure I'd call her action "heroic " Did she think she would save the girl if she intervened?
She must have known what would happen to her if she intervened.
WE learned of the inhumanity of these German guards - compared to those on Guernsey. Seeing so much pain and suffering must have turned them into unfeeling beasts. Remember when Dawsey described Christian - "a German who felt pain."
Jean, why did you think that Elizabeth knew she was going to die in the camp? She almost made it through - one more month and she would have been liberated! I suspected something like this had happened to her in the prison because she still wasn't back in Guernsey a year later when everyone else was coming home.
I didn't cry as some of you did...my reaction was more like Sidney's, I think. It was shocking, I'll admit. Have you noticed just how many characters in this story lost a parent? I think I was so affected by Kit's loss - having lost my own mother at the age of 7 in July, 1945. It's true, isn't it? You bring your own story to your reading. I couldn't - and still don't forgive Elizabeth.
Unless there is further revelation in the last section, I do believe think Elizabeth has played her part and the stage now belongs to Juliet.
Christian Hellman will not return and marry Elizabeth. No bride here.
I am enjoying the Dead Bride stories - but still wonder why the author chose this particular game for this particular story.
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I happen to like Marcus Aurelius ’Meditations’. He was an introspective person, as I am. Hasn’t it been said that the unexamined life isn’t worth living? Babi
Babi, I don't know anyone who reads Marcus Aurelius - I'm intrigued. when and how did you become interested? I'm going to look up something on old Marcus right now.
Here is a link to some Quotations taken from Marcus Aurelius' Meditations (http://radicalacademy.com/philosophicalquotations29.htm)
"I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there. Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life."
Babi, are you so sure Juliet wants to remain in Guernsey? London is her life. The only life she knows. Can she make up her mind that she wants to remain on Guernsey after such a brief stay? Do the Guernsey people fill a void in her life?
I suppose it is safe to say that she doesn't want to marry Mark. She's pretending he doesn't exist... Does he get the message?
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JoanP,
Christian Hellman will not return to marry Elizabeth. No bride here.
Are you certain, he won't return? The people of Guernsey, just found out about Elizabeth's death. What are the chances, Christian could return to Guernsey, hoping to find Eliabeth still alive and wanting to marry her? I haven't read the final pages, so I am going on a possibility. I am certain Juliet will NOT go back with Mark, and Sidney is out of the running, since he has announced to Isola he is gay, (which I asked early on did anyone else suspect it when he was with Piers). As I stated early, I don't see a happily ever after marriage in the cards for Juliet. I don't see her and Dawsey together, raising Kit, living in Guernsey. As I mentioned earlier, the unattainable love, is still my suspicions, where Juliet is concerned.
When I read of Elizabeth's last act, i tho't she knew she was going to die in the prison camp in some way. She has acted against injustice thruout the story as Barbara commented, so she would act in this situation, maybe choosing her reason, and time, of death. .................... jean
Jean, I think for whatever reason, you are correct, I do think Elizabeth did choose her own time of death. She had to know she would be killed to step up and challenge the actions of the soldiers, especially in front of other prisoners. Those soldiers were less then human, unlike the ones she stepped up to, in Guernsey, and lied to about the Literary Society. She had to know the end results, if she did this. None of her risks she chose to take, seemed to factor in Kit.
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I am not sure she was thinking or calculating her chances of any outcome, - I think she just snapped - I think for self-preservation she swallowed all she could and then like a nation that Revolts she could take no more and call herself human -
I think we all have our snapping point and for each of us it is probably over a different cause - reading this it is hindsight to think she only had to wait a month - we know history - Elizabeth had no idea of time - all that was left was place - everything that would identify her to herself was removed - she had no earthly possessions, little health, the lack of food and proper sleep does awful thing to your mental capacity to even think coherently - all she had to hang onto and call herself human was her driving force and seeing that denied for her own safety she could no longer tolerate.
I see this bit of the story as part of what drives them all - the community is greater than the individual - Elizabeth represents the community of man living within limits, boundaries, defined by a dignity towards each other.
If this is a story about how folks get through the war, adversity, the choices they make - then I can see the actions of each character being an end unto themselves - but if we see this story in which characterizations are one of the devises used to offer us a deeper meaning, the over arching message of the book - then the actions of each character are only messages like breadcrumbs dropped in the forest leading us to the deeper meaning of this story.
So far I am coming away with a meaning for this story centered around handling loss and examples of living through collective adversity involving loss [when there is no cavalry coming over the hill] with a commitment to community replacing a personal life.
In addition, I cannot quite put it all together however, I see Elizabeth as a caricature of Britain - they befriended Hitler; they bucked up during their ordeal; they sacrificed cities and historical building; they hung on but would not give up their resilient spirit, their autonomy, and belief in their values.
I am seeing the authors they each chose to read not so much for what they wrote or how they may have affected the character in this story but rather, the chosen literary author's lives are metaphors for the members’ lives.
I found this on Amazon and the first Chapter that you can read here speaks of Charles Lamb's early life - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0543855406/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link
Charles Lamb lived within a few miles of his birthplace. Earlier in this discussion, someone shared how he took care of his sister Mary who was not his child but a sister. Charles did venture out of the Inner Temple to attend college - It was Dawsey who ventured forth to contact Elizabeth in the first place although he lived his whole life on Guernsey - He purchased books at the second hand booksellers therefore surrounding himself with knowledge without the wealth that would have allowed him a fine library as Lamb's parents without wealth provided him with an education by living in the Inner Temple.
Somehow, what I have not put together is that I think each of these characters represent or are a metaphor of a characteristic of the Brits, which the story is celebrating how they got through the adversity of WWII with their "Foibles" intact.
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JoanP, re your # 228.
With respect, I don't consider the presence of Christian Hellmann in the capacity of a military doctor unusual. In WW II - and in WW I in which my father fought - the Germans maintained field hospitals wherever troops were fighting or stationed. "Feldlazarett" is the German term.
I believe the United States did the same, in Korea for instance.
To this day, more than sixty years after the end of WW II, we still maintain a large and reputedly excellent facility in Ramstein, Germany, to which wounded American soldiers are flown. It has been mentioned in news reports and at least one special program.
Other American hospitals were opened in German cities at the end of the war, for example in Cannstatt, a suburb of Stuttgart, where my sister lived. We could see the tiled roofs of the buildings from her balcony. We drove by there once a few years before her death in 1993. It was a gated complex and access limited. I never thought to investigate further. Unlike my sister, I was never the inquisitive type. :D
I have not been back to Stuttgart since.
More about my war years tomorrow.
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BarbStAubrey,
So far I am coming away with a meaning for this story centered around handling loss and examples of living through collective adversity involving loss [when there is no cavalry coming over the hill] with a commitment to community replacing a personal life.
I think all of us see the loss connection in the book, but there is so much more it deals with, there is love, war, relationships, friendship, risk taking, not just by Elizabeth, but all the people living in Guernsey, Amelia hiding a pig, Will Thisbee using his dead pig to fool the officers, Juliet traveling to Guernsey for fear she won't fit in, Sidney admitting he is gay, Isola practicing witch craft, etc. etc., there is clamaity, there is literary awareness, trust, acceptance in an intolerant world, fear, isolation, injustice, Christianity, torture, kindness, .....I could go on and on. I think every aspect and emotion of the human nature is touched upon.
BarbStAubrey, I am seeing the authors they each chose to read not so much for what they wrote or how they may have affected the character in this story but rather, the chosen literary author's lives are metaphors for the members’ lives.
I felt the same as you. I actually posed this theory to Annie Barrows, when I first emailed her a week ago, and this was her response,
"I think Mary Ann would be delighted--as I am--to hear that her book had inspired you to investigate the works of Lamb and the others. Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love. But I must tell you, in answer to your question, that the characters came from many sources, and since all three of the authors you mentioned--Elizabeth von Arnim, Dos Passos, and Hemingway--were supplied by me, I can tell you why they were chosen. Elizabeth von Arnim, I'm ashamed to say, was selected for no other reason than that hers was the only book I thought would be likely to pop into a British mind that a German officer would also know. Hemingway and Dos Passos I chose because they reveal Markham's tastes and character. I also got a kick out of making him a Wilkie Collins scholar--Collins was such a smoke and mirror type of writer and personally so disreputable that I thought he reflected Mark's true self.
I believe that the character of Elizabeth was in some ways an homage to a Resistance fighter whom Mary Ann admired deeply, Kim Malthe-Bruun. Eben was named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of Ebenezer Le Page, though the two men have very different characters.I am not aware that Amelia is named after anyone in particular, but she looks just like my great-grandmother. And Juliet, dear Juliet, is the character who is closest to Mary Ann herself. "
I think while we all have had a grand time in reaching, searching, contemplating, and concluding what the the author's focus was, we are not listening or shall I say accepting what the author herself said, the purpose of the book was. I suppose its because we want it to be more, we through our own personal, intellectual mind, are certain that it has to be more than what Annie has said it is. I suppose that is why we are all here, discussing and depicting each thing that stands out to us. That is what Annie said Mary Anne's goal was. Exactly what we are doing. Does that seem too simple to accept?
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Thanks everyone for your kind words -The threat of bushfire is a major fact of life here where across the country thousands of fires occur each year. At present the south-eastern area is suffering from the longest and most severe drought in history so the country was more than tinder dry - once the bush takes fire our beautiful eucalypts release volatile gases and huge trees simply explode throwing embers in all directions. Some fires are caused by lightning strike but with most there is some kind of human intervention either deliberate (by arsonists& their copycats) ) or accidental through carelessness. During this latest disaster two of the many fires joined up and became a fast moving inferno burning on a 100 mile front and taking everything in its path. Horror.
Sunday is to be a national day of mourning for the victims when maybe we can come to terms with the tragedy.
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Dearest {{{Gum}}}, please accept our deepest sympathy. It is not only a national tragedy, the entire world suffers with you. We will join you on Sunday to mourn and then pray for an end to this terrible draught.
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Traude, we look forward to your return - you must have stories to tell about the German people during the war years, though you were just a child yourself. It makes sense that the German army would have surgeons stationed where there was fighting. But do you think that they ever expected there to be fighting on Guernsey - the islands were so heavily fortified?
I'm wondering what the Islanders did for medical care during the war years. Do you think the Germans provided that for the inhabitants? Perhaps this is how Elizabeth and Captain Hellman came to know one another... After five years of Occupation, one can understand where personal relationships developed.
Barbara - I think I over-reacted yesterday when considering Elizabeth's seemingly "reckless" behavior. She had seen too much - I think she "just snapped" too. If this is a story about how folks get through the war, adversity, the choices they make
...
I forced myself to think about those Germans in the camps - in Ravensbrück (http://www.google.com/search?q=Ravensbruck&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7RNWE)..as human beings. How to explain the choices they made? Is it enough to say they were under orders, under pain of death? Does this even begin to explain the inhumane treatment of the prisoners on a day to day basis?
War itself is a terrible thing. On the battlefield, it is about self-preservation, but how to explain the inhumane treatment in those camps? It is impossible for me to understand. Maybe those assigned to these camps had witnessed too much for anyone to take - and just "snapped" too. Have any of you ever read anything by the Germans who worked in these camps?
The Guernsey Literary Society members were insulated from the war, weren't they? The authors are making us consider the horrors of the camps now - through John Booker and Remy... I was shocked to read that John Booker had been to Belsen and came back to tell about it. Perhaps the worst time for the members is now, the months after the war, learning of the atrocities.
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Bellamarie, possibly the most unbelievable part of the Dead Bride story is the idea of a lover dying of chagrin! ;)
BARB, I loved your excellent and thoughtful post on Elizabeth! You touched on one of Elizabeth's traits that I most admired, her ability to turn someone's troubled thoughts to a more positive future. Such people are rare treasures, and a sore loss to the world when they die.
"Babi, are you so sure Juliet wants to remain in Guernsey?"
I don't remember making a statement to that effect, JOANP, but actually I do think she will. She is becoming very much wrapped up in Kit, and she loves Guernsey and her friends there. What's waiting for in London that's so special?
She is obviously keeping in close contact with her friends from Guernsey.
Sidney is in Guernsey, and staying with Isola. I think this says so much about what a kind and caring man he was: “I must stop now and get dressed for Juliet’s party. Isola is swathed in three shawls and a lace dresser scarf - and I want to do her proud.” And of course, it gives us another priceless image of Isola.
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Good morning, Babi!
"What's waiting for in London that's so special?" That's a good question. It has been her home, all through the war years. Her friends are there. Sidney is there.
I love the way the authors are keeping us guessing whether Juliet will stay on Guernsey once the book is written. She does seem to be enjoying herself - and her relationship with Kit is deepening. She seems to have found the family she never had, doesn't she?
I believe Juliet knows that Mark would not fit in well in Guernsey, would not respect or enjoy her friends there. Which is as much as to say, IMO, that Mark would not fit well in Juliet's life, either. Babi
Is Mark OVER for Juliet? I don't think we ever thought they were a good match - but if she returns to London, it wouldn't matter if he fit in with her friends on Guernsey, would it? But the real question is - does he fit into her life.
I love the relationship between Sidney and Isola. How have they struck up such an understanding in one short weekend? Can you think of a reason why Sidney introduced her to Jane Austen?
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Why has Sidney introduced her to Jane Austen, do you think?
pg. 200 Juliet to Sidney.."What on earth did you say to Isola? She stopped in on her way to pick up Pride and Prejudice and to berate me for never telling her about Elizabeth Bennet and Mr. Darcy. Why hadn't she known there were better love stories around? Stories not riddled with ill-adjusted men, anguish, death, and graveyards? What else had I kept from her?"
So it seems from this paragraph, Juliet supplied Isola with many love stories of sadness and death. Why do you suppose Juliet did not supply Isola with as she said, "better love stories"? Does this give us an indication, Juliet has spent her own time focused on ill-adjusted men, and love stories that don't end well, much like her own life experiences?
I love this statement Sidney says to Sophie on pg. 194...."Isola is the kind of hostess you always wished you'd come across on a country visit_ but never do."
These last few pages of this week's assignment have been so much fun! It shows the personal relationships, between Sidney, Juliet and their newfound friendships with the Guernsey people. I especially love hearing of Kit, and her admiration for Elspeth the Lisping Bunny. :) I'm hoping and sensing, we have gotten through the worst, and are about to embark on a lighter, more fun and cheerful ending to this story. Can that be possible? I'm still not sure I agree with Sidney, "I think she may never want to live in London again_though she doesn't realize it yet. Sea air, sunshine, green fields, wildflowers, the everchanging sky and ocean, and most of all, the people seem to have seduced her from City life."
Vacations from your real life, must always come to an end. As lovely as they are, you can't deny your real life. I am not seeing Juliet, living in Guernsey. It would be poetic, but I sense not for her.
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we are not listening or shall I say accepting what the author herself said, the purpose of the book was.
bellamarie
We don’t really have to. Somewhere, in this wonderful discussion are the words of an author himself who said (and now I’m paraphasing) that once the book is out amongst readers, it is no longer the writer’s book, but belongs to the reader, however he may interpret it.
all she had to hang onto and call herself human was her driving force and seeing that denied for her own safety she could no longer tolerate
Babara
Barbara, I agree with you about Elizabeth’s actions when she tried to stop the beating of the prisoner. She may well have known that it wouldn’t do any good, but at some point, rage at all the injustices took over. And perhaps, even in their sadness at the loss of Elizabeth, her actions might have brought a moment of solace to the other prisoners.
I'm wondering what the Islanders did for medical care during the war years. Do you think the Germans provided that for the inhabitants?
Joan
There were terrible shortages of medicines and supplies in the hospitals. Surgery was restricted to memrgency operations because of the shortage of anaesthetics. Diabetics presented one of the greatest problems after the insulin ran out. [more on that later] Many islanders turned to grandmothers for old herbal remedies. One of the most common problems was constipation because of the starchy diet. . . . Sub nutrition made people more vulnerable to infections and pharmacists were hard-pressed to devise alternative treaments. ‘All the malt and cod liver oil which was destined for the cattle was requisitioned and given to the children for vitamins A and D.’ The most common complaints were skin conditions such as scabies and impetigo, caused by vitamin deficiencies.
from Model Occupation
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The other day I told about a diabetic boy gettng insulin from a German soldier. I’m quoting the story of his survival here because I think it simply amazing.
Diabetics presented one of the greatest problems; they lost a lot of weight because there were no carbohydrates in their diet, and they became vulnerable to liver and kidney infections and pneumonia. Twenty-six died on Guernsey. The survival of Maurice Green (actually a Jersey boy) was something of a miracle and after the war he became the subject of medical research. For sixteen months he had no insulin (after the gift from the soldier ran out); he discharged himself from the hospital and devised his own treatment.
Maurice Green’s story
‘Every day I dug up the garden which made me burn up energy. I didn’t eat any carbohydrate or starch. I took a morning job for which I was paid in eggs and the odd piece of pork. I ate dandelions and roots and lost a lot of weight.’
He was the only diabetic in the Channel Islands to survive the Occupation. He was fourteen years old when he left the hospital.
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pedln,
We don’t really have to. Somewhere, in this wonderful discussion are the words of an author himself who said (and now I’m paraphasing) that once the book is out amongst readers, it is no longer the writer’s book, but belongs to the reader, however he may interpret it.
Oh how very true these words are......lolololololol I found myself being too focused, into the words of Annie Barrows. Shame on me, after finding all those wonderful quotes early on. That will teach me, to never go seeking out an author again, before I finish a book. lolololol Thank you pedln, for you post.
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I am following along this wonderful discussion. I have not yet received my book so I skip over the posts that might tell too much of the story. Kiwi I have experienced your sadness twice and I am sad for you. Also regarding the draught, I am praying along with you for rain. I hope I will be able to get the next discussion book in a more timely manner. I am still only number 4 on the list waiting for this great book.
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pedln, thank you for that beautifully expressed quote. What really matters in the end is if, whether and how a book has affected us.
JoanP, I'd like to start not with my own story but in medias res, the camps.
They were called "Konzentrationslager" (KZ for short). The first one was built shortly after Hitler came to power in January 1933 in Bavaria near a small medieval town by the name of Dachau. Dachau served as model for all other camps built thereafter throughout Germany and eventually in Poland and the then Czechoslovakia.
The camps were built to house political prisoners; among them were prominent Catholic and Protestant clerics, political activists and resistance fighters. According to references on the web,
2/3 of the prison population in Dachau consisted of political prisoners, 1/3 were Jewish.
Protestant pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was imprisoned in Dachau and in the KZ Sachsenhausen from 1937 until his liberation in 1945.
Jurist and activist Klaus Bonhöfer (1901-1945) was arrested by the Gestapo on October 1, 1944 and
shot by a firing squad on the night of April 22/23, 1945 - even as Soviet troops were closing in on the outskirts of Berlin.
Never before has a nation been under such absolute mind control, except for Soviet Russia. The Gestapo had ears everywhere and informants on every city block. The party controlled the news media, all levels of education from Kindergarten to universities, all cultural and religious institutions.
Specific art was declared "decadent" and dismissed; books forbidden (and symbolically burned) en masse.
I studied in Heidelberg, the oldest university in Germany, founded in 1386. In my time Heidelberg did not have a campus, it still does not. For the first trimester (we had TRImesters rather than semesters during the war) I commuted from Mannheim, an industrial city 50 kilometers away. After that I rented a room in Heidelberg.
There was simmering, palpable unrest in the student body. One day an old friend told me of a small cell of activists. I joined them, never breathing a single word when I went home for a rare weekend.
In September of 1943 I was home on trimester vacation. When the alarm sounded, my mother and I grabbed the ready-packed suitcase sitting by the door and ran to the bunker down the street. The first bombs started falling before we were inside. It was a long night. The concrete edifice shook a few times, and we knew this time we had been hit.
I wrote a story about that night for WREX and - thanks to the help of Bunnie, the picture lady from Missouri - was able to submit photos of the house, then and now. Factual proof of the destruction - and even the eventual reconstruction in several stages of the beautiful sandstone Jugendstil building, a historic landmark.
It was a lifetime ago, yet only the beginning ...
And it as only the beginning ...
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Good morning, Janice,
I went to sleep thinking of you and your patience. It is wonderful that you have stayed with us this far, but tomorrow when we move into discussion of the final letters and an overall discussion of the book, I'm afraid that the posts, most of the posts, will be spoilers for you. I want you to know that next week, when the discussion ends, the whole discussion will be archived here and you will be able to read all of the posts as you read your long-awaited book.
We look forward to your reactions to the book once you have read it - in our SeniorLearn Library, which many of us frequent.
On March 1, the next Book Club Online discussion will on Doris Kearns Goodwin's, Team of Rivals, her very special biography of Abraham Lincoln. Ella and PatH have already opened a lively pre-discussion of this book. Then, on April 1, we will discuss Muriel Barbery's, The Elegance of the Hedgehog. Please consider joining us in these discussions.
We've loved having you on the lurkers' couch - you enjoy the distinction of being the only lurker who hasn't read the book, trying to avoid the spoilers! A first! Congratulations! :D
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I think that Kit, hiding under the table at the Literary Society meetings heard all kinds of things, no doubt including some that she shouldn’t. But kids adapt things to what they understand or know.
These lines are by George Eliot.
"Am I not thine alone, a dear dead bride
Who blest thy lot above all men's beside?"
Pedln, you and I were posting at the same time the other day - and I totally missed your post.
When I read Eliot's lines, I'm thinking that the "dead bride" seems to refer to Elizabeth. I went to sleep thinking of what the impact of Remy Girard's letter and then her appearance on Guernsey would have on the members of the literary society. The islands had been closed all those years. They wouldn't know of the shocking gruesome details of what went on in those camps. But then, suddenly, I thought of John Booker - who has returned from Belsen - one of the liberated. Now he is using his proper name...
Has he kept his traumatic memories to himself? I'm going to reread his letters this morning...perhaps he is keeping quiet about them to protect the Gurensians from worrying about Elizabeth any more than they are.
There I go again, thinking of these people as more than characters in a book!
Traudee, your posts are invaluable. We look forward to hearing from you about the German viewpoint. I imagine this is still difficult for you to revisit, even after fifty some years.
As a student in Heidelberg you knew of the camps, the KZs - as housing "politcal prisoners, clergy, political activists and resistance fighters."
"There was simmering, palpable unrest in the student body. One day an old friend told me of a small cell of activists. I joined them, never breathing a single word when I went home for a rare weekend." Traudee
Can you tell more about those student activist days? Did you and your mother remain in Mannheim after the bombing? Well, this is your story. I'd better be patient and let you tell it in your own time. I am most anxious to learn when you first heard what was going on in the KZ at this time. It most have been sickening and shocking for you to learn...
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After Sidney goes back home, he sends another one of those inspired gifts. He sends Kit a pair of red shoes with sequins. Don't you know the little girl loved those shoes?!
Straude, thanks for the reminder about the non-Jewish political prisoners. In the horrors of the mass murders, we tend to forget that. I always thought it so sad that Bonhoefer endured for so long, only to be executed with deliverance in sight. As I understand it, the Nazis did not want him left alive to tell his story.
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Horror.. I know it is not a good way to start Saturday, but the morning paper shocked me. small item in the paper. A painter-poet who was jewish was taken up by the commandent of a town in the war. He was forced to paint murals in a childs room and in turn was protected by the German officer. About midway through the war, he was shot and killed in the street by another German officer and I quote" Because his officer had killed the second officers pet jew".. To refer to a human being as a pet.. I cried..
Still love the book.. am ready to settle in and finish it today and tomorrow. Can hardly wait. I want to Juliet to stay there , marry and live happily ever after, but then I am atradionalist.
I actually know two separate couples, who went to a special place on their honeymoons, fell in love with them and stayed.. One in Peru, one in Alaska.
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Steph,
I want to Juliet to stay there , marry and live happily ever after, but then I am atradionalist.
I am suspecting most of the people who read this book are expecting Juliet to go to Guernsey, find true love, and stay on this lovely island, where she has met so many nice people and become a mother to Kit. In saying this, I have to say, for some reason, some where along my reading this book, I became very frustrated with Juliet's character. To me, I was finding her character wishy washy, and self absorbed. Even after she got to Guernsey, it seemed like she was thrilled with all the attention everyone was giving her, I was uneasy, about her motives for befriending them, since her aim was to get more info for her articles. After Sidney came and she sent him the pages to look over, he says look for more about Elizabeth, so what does she do...she goes looking into personal things of Elizabeth's, for the purpose of gaining more insight for her book.
Keep in mind she has only been there for a month or so, she has gained the friendship and trust of the people, so does this warrant, her rummaging through Elizabeth's personal things, for her book? I am an idealist and romantic and look for the happily ever after, most of the time, when I am reading any book, that has a love story theme, yet for some reason, I have NO idea why, I have not been rooting for her to end up with Dawsey and Kit. I too am going to finish the last pages, and once I read them, maybe Mary Ann/Juliet can change my mind.
Up to this point I feel, Mary Ann has had the readers so focused away from Juliet, by making Elizabeth so much the main character, then she brings is so many other people so quickly, I have seen no real love affair forming with Juliet and Dawsey. Friendship, yes, but not romance. I hope, if not for lack of running out of time, they are not put together, just to give it the happily ever after ending. For me it will leave me even more frustated. So.....in saying this...on to finish the book be back tomorrow.
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JoanP, the existence of KZs was not common knowledge; I did not know of them when I came to Heidelberg. The full details and statistics came to light only AFTER the war.
It could not have been otherwise because of the stranglehold that had been imposed on young and old.
The government was the Party, and the powers of the Party were limitless. A systematic cleansing began early in 1933 of all institutions, political, cultural and religious. Members of the nobility, the intellectual elite and career officers were automatically suspect. The barons and counts dropped the "von" from their names. University professors known to hold dissenting views were pushed out. The military high command was similarly "reformed".
The people had hope in the beginning when thousands of unemployed were put back to work building the Autobahnen. By that time I was in secondary school. When I entered it at age 10, there were six Jewish and two half-Jewish girls. During the next few years all but one disappeared, suddenly, mysteriously, without explanation. The last one did not leave quietly. She was the daughter of a Protestant minister and a Jewish mother. She was tall, had long thick braids and a brilliant student. Her name was Christiane.
Her tormentor was Dr. phil. Scharnke, our home room teacher who also taught history and German. She treated Christiane viciously, reduced her to tears and shouted at her, while the rest of us squirmed. Christiane fought back, passionately - but one day she was gone for good.
Then Dr Scharnke turned on me for no reason I ever understood. When war broke out we were in the last year of high school.
Re the house. It was uninhabitable and remained so for year after, until a bank bought it in the prosperous fifties and began its rehabilitation.
We had reason to be grateful: my ailing father was out of town on that night. If he had been home, he would have gone to his customary place in the cellar, which was rubble, and would have been killed.
The parents of my best friend from school offered mother and myself refuge in their villa, which was untouched. Father joined us there. I went back to Heidelberg. My parents were relocated in a different rural area of the country.
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straudetwo, Thank you so very much for sharing your life story with us. I can't even begin to imagine, living through what you have experienced.
Her tormentor was Dr. phil. Scharnke, our home room teacher who also taught history and German. She treated Christiane viciously, reduced her to tears and shouted at her, while the rest of us squirmed. Christiane fought back, passionately - but one day she was gone for good.
This brought tears to my eyes.
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Bellamarie, thank you for your kind words.
May I assure you that it was not my intention to hold forth with my life's story -- which was not unique by any means (nor is that y style). What I have described is my own personal experience. I lay no claim to voicing a broad German point of view of the past. After all, I have lived in this country two decades longer than I ever did in Europe. Thousands upon thousands of people, first in Britain, mind you, then in Germany and elsewere, have similar stories to tell.
Yes, it was Germany under a man who was a mass murderer and quite possibly insane that started WW II. But of what help is this acknowledgement now? Hitler's foray into Russia was as disastrous and ill-conceived as Napoleon's a century earlier. But clearly, we have not learned anything from history and continue to repeat past mistakes with impunity. Forgive me for being frank - that's the only way I can function.
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straudetwo "May I assure you that it was not my intention to hold forth with my life's story -- which was not unique by any means"
It's good that you hold forth with it; that's exactly what is so good about this kind of discussion. Your experience enriches the discussion, and even the parts that aren't closely relevant fill in the background. Besides, we're a group of friends, and the more you know about a friend the more you like them. I honor you for taking a strong stand at the time--not easy to do.
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Tomorrow, all will be revealed. I have to confess that my usual self-restraint failed me, and when I read this week's assignment I couldn't stop, and finished the book. Here is what I thought about Juliet's future at the start of the week. I now know whether I was right or wrong, but that doesn't matter.
From the start, I felt that Juliet would end up married to Sidney, or else not marry anyone. They are old friends, and they are so totally sympathetic to each other. I never felt that Mark Reynolds was a serious contender. No, I didn't pick up on the fact that he's gay. I also felt that although Dawsey is wonderfully worthy, she wouldn't do well to marry him. They are too different, and I can't believe she would be happy living on Guernsey all the time.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
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The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 22-28 Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946
1. What did you think of this novel made up entirely of letters as a means of telling a story? Did it work for you? Did the characters come alive through this means of expression?
2. What historical facts concerning World War II did you discover? Can fiction sometimes make historic events more understandable or does it distort the facts?
3. Do you believe that books have the power to lift people out of the most trying circumstances?
4. Juliet sees Dawsey Adams as Charles Lamb. Did she ever see him as Jane Austen's Mr. Rochester or Mr.Darcy? Are these men at all alike? How was Dawsey different from other men Juliet had known?
5. What effect did Remy Girard's arrival on the scene after the war have on the members of the literary society? What was Juliet's reaction to her coming? Why did Remy decide to leave?
6. Why do you think Isola's grandmother's letters from Oscar Wilde about cats were included in this story?
7. When did you first suspect that Juliet and Dawsey might become romantically involved? What part did Isola play in making the match?
8. Why do you think the authors decided to end the book with Isola's "Detection Notes"? Did they add an element to the story that could not have been achieved in letters?
9. What does a reader’s taste in books say about his or her personality?
Which characters' literary opinions are most like your own? Did you have a favorite?
10. Do you agree with Isola that “reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad one"?
Are there some "good books" you intend to read as a result of this book discussion?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html); Annie Barrows Responds to Readers (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/guernsey/quest&answers.htm)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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straudetwo,
But clearly, we have not learned anything from history and continue to repeat past mistakes with impunity. Forgive me for being frank - that's the only way I can function.
Indeed we do, continue to repeat the past mistakes with impunity. Sad as it is. I welcome your frankness. Thank you.
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thanks for sharing straudetwo - your story reminds us that experiencing war is monstrous on so many levels - one of the difficult aspects of WWII is that almost like the Civil War we were fighting our own - The German immigrant heavily populated this country and after WWII there was such shame that so many German customs have disappeared as they and the use of the German language were no longer practiced - It is so much easier to keep the black and white view of the world we were taught as children and your sharing helps to remind us of the ambiguity that is more common -
Even Hitler who we see as a monster and yet, he wanted to bring back pride in Germany and chose to act on an age old view of Jews that was written about in the Bismark letters. This was written in 1912 long before Hitler's rise to power - http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/class.html
We have to thank Hitler for our Interstate highway - it was Eisenhower who was impressed with the autobahn and thought the US could benefit from such a highway system - we have Hitler to thank for the small car since he was a strong supporter of the Volkswagen Bug - We may have been about a chicken in every pot during the 1930s while Hitler was about a car in every garage.
I think this story shows us the two sides of the German people - there is the Doctors who within their limited ability helped the people on Guernsey and then the guards who brutalized all humanity with their actions to a few.
I too often wonder what is it that allows some people to do such awful things - in this search I remember reading with others from Seniornet History: A Novel by Lisa Morante that included scenes of German soldiers brutality in Italy - what struck me was they were roaming soldiers without leadership so that their actions were not ordered - then I remember reading Slaughter House Five and learning of the mass German population killed 25 deep in the bomb cellars in Dresden. http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm
Little by little I have read how people who misuse power do so because they can - and research by some University back east had students take live positions as guards and prisoners for hours and days at a time - the guards became so cruel they had to stop the experiment for the safety of the student play acting prisoners -
All to say within all of us is a capacity that we have never had to tap and who knows how we will act - we would like to think we will be honorable but until we learn what triggers unspeakable acts we really cannot be 100% sure of expecting anyone to act within the limits of human decency.
I have a friend who often says that there is no hell in the after life - it is here on earth.
In our story what is interesting to me is that Elizabeth's death is treated with dignity - she was not impulsively shot like a dog on the spot - rather the next day the soldiers form a guard around her and she was taken to a Poplar grove where the trees line a walkway and where she was executed in a kneeling position. Toward the end of the war for the Germans to take that much care in her execution is suggesting in this story this must be symbolic of something more than one women having been shot in the camps.
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Before I shut my computer down for the night, I wanted to remember our dear friend (tooth fairy) Gumtree, since it is officially Sunday.
Gumtree, Sunday is to be a national day of mourning for the victims when maybe we can come to terms with the tragedy.
Please know my prayers will be with you, and all of Australia, on your day of mourning. I will light a candle and place your "national day of mourning", in our book of prayers when I attend mass today.
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I agree with PatH, Traudee. Your experiences enrich the discussion tremendously. Is it still difficult to talk about - after so many years? John Booker wrote to Juliet that he couldn't talk about what went on in Belsen to anyone - he said he "got the shakes" just thinking about it. He remembers the guards playing polkas as he dragged the dead - and the dying - to mass grave sites.
How long after the war did you learn what was going on in the camps? Did it come out as big news all at once, or did you begin to hear individual rumors before the atrocities were officially recognized?
John Booker is a fictional character, but I imagine there were others who actually managed to survive until the liberation. I imagine too that it was a long time, if ever, before they could talk about their experiences there.
All to say within all of us is a capacity that we have never had to tap and who knows how we will act - we would like to think we will be honorable but until we learn what triggers unspeakable acts we really cannot be 100% sure of expecting anyone to act within the limits of human decency.
Barbara, these are sobering thoughts as we struggle to understand the limits of human decency. Thank you Traudee - and Barbara, for sharing with us. I'm certain that Mary Ann Shaffer struggled with this as she researched the camps for the characters of Remy Girard and John Booker.
What strikes me and sustains is the resiliency of the human spirit -
{{{Gum}}} - our thoughts and prayers are with you and Australia as you mourn.
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Here we are - the final week!
We have been very much aware of our tight-lipped lurkers, waiting all this time to weigh in with your thoughts as we leisurely made our way to the end of the story. We can't wait to hear from you, at last!
I enjoyed the suspense right to the very end...but in hindsight, there were so many clues revealed in each of the letters there weren't many surprises, were there? Were there? Were you satisfied with the denouement?
Have a lovely Sunday, everyone! Carpe diem, as Juliet would say!
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Oh me,, I finished the whole thing and will withhold comment. I have to confess that I thought Sydney was gay from day one. No idea just why, although I think it has to do with the fact that Juliets letters to him were very female to female types.
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Thanks for your prayers and hugs - they mean so much more than I can say...Such an emotional day for everyone but a day of release and I think the beginning of the healing process. - I didn't watch the whole official ceremony televised from Melbourne but preferred to be part of our local tribute here in the west. It seemed so much more personal and real to me.
Thank you again for caring.
Carpe Diem indeed JoanP - I'm off to read the last section....well after I get some sleep...
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"..who knows how we will act?" So true. I remember once being asked if I (being a Christian) would be afraid to die. I replied, "I like to think I would not, but I don't want to brag about something before I've actually done it."
I forgot yesterday to answer the question of how I became interested in reading Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It's been so long ago, but as best I remember I read something about Marcus Aurelius that intrigued me, and about stoicism, which struck a chord with me. My Dad taught me that crying over a physical hurt did not help the problem, and he set an example in his own life of personal honor and integrity. So I found much in the "Meditations" that I could relate to.
Bellamarie, I did not see Elizabeth's drawings and stories as something deeply personal. Then, too, they were Kit's heritage. I was so pleased to read that Elizabeth had left drawings of the island people, her little girl Kit, and of Christian. The one of Christian, especially, will be such a treasure to the little girl. As will the stories about Christian, ...like his coming to Amelia, as a sort of ‘guardian’ to Elizabeth, to explain his ‘intentions’. Such a wonderful 'inheritance'.
In the letter of 7/19 from Juliet to Sidney we have more stories about Elizabeth and Christian from all over the island. Elizabeth and Jane spreading their lunch on Mr. Muliss’ tombstone. Christian pitching in to help dig a grave when the ground was ice-hard. And more instances of the decent German soldiers who tried to help, like the ones who made sure some potatoes or oranges ‘rolled off’ the trucks so the children could have them.
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So here we are in the final week, hopefully ready to tie up all the pieces. I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's comments, and also their questions, because I've got plenty.
Babi, thanks for bringing up those Elizabeth stories, planting them squarely in front of us. I know I’m going to need to hear more from everyone before I can begin to answer JoanP’s question -- Were you satisfied with the denouement?
I wasn’t quite sure what that was, but here’s a web definition.
Denouement - the final unraveling of the plot following the climax (same as resolution)In literature, a dénouement (IPA:/deˈnuːmɑ̃/) consists of a series of events that follow the climax of a drama or narrative, and thus serves as the conclusion of the story. Conflicts are resolved, creating normality for the characters and a sense of catharsis, or release of tension and anxiety, for the reader. Etymologically, the French word dénouement is derived from the Old French word denoer, "to untie", and from nodus, Latin for "knot." Simply put, dénouement is the unraveling or untying of the complexities of a plot.The dénouement comprises events after the climax and the falling action (which should not be confused with dénouement).
So, have we reached a climax? And here is another web definition. I’m not trying to be ultra-literary. I just have a lot of questions, and don’t know the answers.
A climax includes three elements. The most important element is that 1. the protagonist experiences a change. 2. The main character discovers something about himself or herself, and another unknown character. 3. The last element is revealing the theme itself.
My first thinking was that the climax is when Juliet arrived in Guernsey. Is it? She discovers that she has some new feelings for Dawsey (2) She also discovers new things about Elizabeth, and of course is getting to know and love Kit, whom she wants to raise.
We may not all agree that that is the climax, or that Juliet is the main character, and who what is the protagonist.
Were you satisfied with the denouement?
I don’t know if it were denouement or falling action, but I thought some parts of this last section were contrived. The Bille-Bee business. I’m not sure I even understand why that was in there. And I need to reread about Sidney’s gift to Isola, why the phrenology book was included.
But what disturbed most was the author leaving the letter format, going to notes by Isola. When I’ve encountered that sort of things in other books I’ve always thought it to be a bit of ‘dirty pool.’
Please don’t get me wrong. I’ve loved the book. It’s one of those that just absorbed and wrapped itself around me. But there are just a few things that bother me about it.
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I was going to write a lot but decided to write just a little.
For me the book was delightful because it housed so diverse a group of people each on a journey to find out :
1)What authors should I read ? What can they do for me?
2) Who should I LOVE? What are the things that would make me happy with this person rather than with that one?
3)Where should I live? What place will give me the security I seek?
The author was a great optimist who said to me, "Out of misery will come great joy. Out of sorrow for some will grow great and unexpected happiness for others."
Jude
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I tho't it was a very enjoyable book about a topic of which i haven't read before. It was fairly predictable, that's o.k. I think we may have analyzed it way beyond the authors' thinking, but that was fun also.
We can get very self-righteous and judgemental about characters in a book and what they should or should not be doing, but it is hard to foresee what we would do ourselves in similar circumstances and would we be as upright in our behavior as we would like to think. In circumstances that at the moment we can not even imagine - i think of those poor people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur. How would i behave if my family was in danger, i can't tell you. I have been very strong in situations where there was not much danger in my speaking up or doing what i tho't was the right thing, but something that would affect my family's survival?? ............................i don't know....................jean
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This book was a wonderful surprise for me and a lesson, too. When I first heard about it, I rather dismissed it as chick lit but, boy, did I ever change my mind when I started checking reviews and reading the actual book! No more pre-judgements here!
The novel of letters worked just fine for me although that was another surprise. I found that the characters came more alive because you were reading their own words and not those of a second party. I learned quite a bit about Guernsey and the occupation and I was introduced to books and authors that I was unfamiliar with. I now have "The Book of Ebenezer le Page" and "Elizabeth and Her German Garden" - & will be tracking down the rest of her books. What a fantastic character she was!!
I've read some of Seneca's Epistles and will look for Marcus Aurelius. I still have some of my college papers on Epictetus, another of the Stoics, and was reminded of him.
This book ended exactly the way I hoped it would. I'm happy! That reminds me, since Oscar Wilde was brought up in the book, are any of you familiar with his fairy tales - in particular, "The Happy Prince"? I dearly love that story even though it always makes me cry. It's available on-line if a book is not handy. Do, do read it!!!!
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I will say the book was educational, as far as, geography, The Occupation, and classical writers and their works. I found it entertaining, predictable to the point of frustrating me, inconsistent, enjoyable and humorous. This is the first novel I have experienced, using the epistolary style, and found it easy to get to know the characters quickly, since they were each writing their personal letters. Although, I am not sure, the author kept true to the characters.
I was disappointed once we came to the climax, of Juliet arriving in Guernsey. Although, I'm not sure, if finding out how Elizabeth died, was more the climax for me, since I was more focused on Elizabeth's life, even though I suspected early on she would be dead. Juliet, the character lost my interest, and believability somewhere before she even arrived in Guernsey. I'm still not sure, I even know why. The way things happened so quickly, once she arrived, left me feeling out of breath at times. I found no significance in the odd parts of Billie Bee, the Oscar Wilde letters, the reading head bumps, and then the motorbike racing. So, by the time Isola concocts a story to clean Dawsey's house, to find clues of his love for Remy, and she relates back to Juliet, her finding her letters, hankderchief etc., which gives Juliet the insight to "Carpe Diem ", I'm saying to myself, "NO WAY am I buying any of this."
I like quirky, unpredictable, interesting, unusual and even spontenaity in story themes and characters. But for me the last pages of this story, made no sense, to me. I guess, the best way for me to put it, is like Adelaide said, "I hear you and that pig-farmer are going to regularize your connection." I'll leave out, Praise the Lord! Instead, I shall say as usual....And they lived, happily ever after.......
I will take with me, the fact I learned so many fantastic authors, books and essays, I will pursue and add to my book shelf. I now know, Charles Lamb, Charles Morley, The Bronte' sisters, Seneca and Jane Austen and hope to get to know them even better.
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I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband). I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism. I liked the letter format - it reminded me of an old favorite, 84 Charing Cross Road. I just enjoyed reading a well-written story. It did make us both want to include Guernsey on any trip we might take in that area. I've recommended the book to many people - just as a fun, pleasant read. Nothing more needed, IMHO.
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I have been having trouble getting through. This is the third time that I am trying to send a comment. I hope this goes through otherwise I will not be able to continue in the group.
Have any of you read "Suite Francais" bu Irene Nemerovsky? Here too we have a romance between a German soldier and a French woman. The question "why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers" is really two questions. The women's reasons were not the same as that of Dawsey. There were few eligible men left on the island. The girls who dated the Germans also obtained food which fed their families. Dawsey hints at another reason, bordom which he feels is a powerful reason for fraternization. Some of the Germans in Guernsey were kind to the natives, something we find hard to believe, as they are the brutal "Huns." In the second part of "Suite Francais", called "Dolce" the author also creates the Germans as kind, too kind to my way of thinking. In Guernsey, some of the German invaders are kind, caring, etc, such as Elizabeth's lover, Captain Christian Hellman. He is the one who helped Dawsey and was always kind to him. The author tells that the young women were drawn to the Germans. In "Suite Francais" the young women were also drawn to the soldiers, who they found to be gentlemen. For Lucille Angellier in "Suite Francais" the young soldier billeted with her awakened feelings of love. The need for love does not abide by rules of warfare. Young people everywhere are drawn to each other and in times of stress the need for affection knows no rules of engagement.
The story of the destruction of the dogs was horrid. I'm afraid that this may occur in our country as well. Many are giving up their pets as they are unable to care for them because of the economy. The pounds are running out of room and I'm afraid that soon they too will be euthanizing them.
There is so much history in this book that it is really a treasure trove of British history during the World War 11 period.
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maryz,
I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband). I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism.
I have a feeling, I would have liked the book much more, had I not looked for deeper meanings, and symbolism. I may read it again, at my leisure one day.
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http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2008/10/09/chewy-changes/
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Lucky, you made it in, good. I have heard positive things about the “Suite Francais,” but have not read it. You have pointed out many parallels between it and our story here on Guernsey, especially about the relationships existing between the invaders and those being invaded. Truthfully, I have not seen much of that in other books about war.
Barbara, thanks for the link. I was looking for a map to try and pin point Chouet, but no luck. From what I could find, it looks to be on the northwest side of the island, pretty harsh looking, but also noted for its tea shops. Ah, don’t we all want to join MaryZ and her husband on their trip to Guernsey.
Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader. It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper. I’ve enjoyed serendipitous finds that link this book to others, such as van Arnims’s Enchanted April, which I hope to watch this week. And just the other day, in my P.D. James novel, Inspector Dalgleish contemplates why the best war poetry came from WW I, instead of WW II. And he wonders what has kept a promising character from becoming another Wilford Owen. And I’m so happy to know what he’s talking about.
JoanR, I think you’ve found some of those links also, with your book of Ebeneezer Page and Elizabeth and her German Garden. Had it not been for the digging of this group I would have forever thought that latter just to be a made-up title. But please refresh my memory about the Happy Prince – there’s something about his eyes . . . .
MaryZ, and everyone else who is dreaming of a trip – if you can get to London, you can get to Guernsey
Getting to the Channel Islands (http://www.seat61.com/ChannelIslands.htm)
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pedln,
Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader. It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper.
I fear you confused my post with:
maryz's, I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband). I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism.
pedln, I would like to read it again at my leisure to try to discover for myself, when, where and why, I disconnected with Juliet, and why I was left feeling frustrated. I generally root for the happily ever after endings. I sense many of the people who read this book, will find connections to other books they have read, or will read in the future, as you mentioned you are doing.
I like how Mary Ann so eloquently said:
"If nothing else, I hope these characters and their story shed some light on the sufferings and strength of the people of the Channel Islands during the German Occupation. I hope too, that my book will illuminate my belief that love of art_be it poetry, storytelling, painting, sculpture, or music__enables people to transcend any barrier man has yet devised."
I think she and Annie would be extremely pleased with our discussion of their book.
As Annie said in her email to me: "Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love."
Mission accomplished!!
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I loved reading about the occupation and the island and the people there. But I did not like the contrived ending. That made it way close to romance writing. The whole Oscar Wilde diversion was sort of weird. Still I am glad I read it. I never even knew about The Nazis and the islands off Britain and I loved hearing and reading about them. Do intend to look up some factual stuff on the occupation. One of those.. want to know more sort of things.
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My husband and I both thoroughly enjoyed this book. Because it was on the library reserve list, we read it straight through in order to get it back for other readers. I particularly liked the ending. It was very satisfying.
I did shed a few tears when I read about Elizabeth's treatment and death in the concentration camp.
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Good morning, FlaJean - I'm curious to hear your husband's response to the book? Did he have the emotional moments that you did?
What a good morning this is! Thank you all for your input! When you take in all the posts in one big gulp along with the morning coffee - you can't help but be struck by the many facets of this book - the historical, the geographical, the literary, the psychological, sociological - and then of course, the story, told entirely in letters. Imagine yourself the author confronted with the enormity of such a project!
I'd like to concentrate first of all, on your response to the question - did it work for you? From your posts, it seems that you came away with a better understanding of history, geography, an interest in reading more ...
For starters, I'd like to focus on the story itself. I'm still trying to decide what I thought about the "dénouement" - as Pedln said yesterday - dénouement is the unraveling or untying of the complexities of a plot.
Out comes the old French teacher in me - A "noeud" is a knot in French. So when you unravel or untie the knot, those threads have been there all along, right? Those of us who thought we knew Juliet from her letters didn't really see her becoming romantically involved with Dawsey...but in hindsight, the authors never indicated otherwise, did they?
MaryZ - even though you weren't looking for the symbolism and hidden meanings, the authors, I think, were generous with innuendos and references to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. Jean, you found the outcome "fairly predictable." It was difficult for me not to let you know until now Annie Barrows' reply to a question you and Laura posed two weeks ago, regarding Dawsey's name. I was afraid it might spoil things for those who hadn't finished the final letters in the book.
From Jean in New Jersey - At some point while reading "Dawsey" my mind went to "Dorsey." Depending on your accent the two words sound very much alike and the love story between he and Juliet has similarities to Austen's story." Is she close?
From Laura in Maine: Where did Dawsey’s name came from? It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before?
Annie wrote: - Yes, Dawsey's name is related to Mr. Darcy's, and Juliet's initials aren't J. A. by accident.
Had any of you noticed that Juliet Ashton and Jane Austen shared the same initials? ;D
Our beef seems to be with the rise of Isola's importance in the end. Is that how you saw it? Did she become the pivotal character? What do you think the authors intended here...
Steph - "I did not like the contrived ending. That made it way close to romance writing. The whole Oscar Wilde diversion was sort of weird."
Pedln: I thought some parts of this last section were contrived. The Bille-Bee business. I'm not sure I even understand why that was in there. And I need to reread about Sidney’s gift to Isola, why the phrenology book was included.
Do you all feel this way? Can we talk about these particular anecdotes and why the authors might have felt they were important here? I am really interested in how you saw Isola's role.
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We have said very little about Remy. If nothing else, her presence is significant in that Juliet believed Dawsey was falling in love with her, and it awakened her to a realization of her own feelings.
…Remy in Guernsey, watching Kit play in the sea. Remy is still very fragile, and when she briefly touches Juliet on the shoulder: “I felt as if she had given me a gift -- even such a tiny gesture as a touch takes trust--and I was glad she felt safe with me.”
I’ve felt that when coming to know a child. The first time they approach you voluntarily, perhaps lean briefly against your knee, show you something they treasure, it’s a gesture of trust and it’s very precious.
I loved the description of the scholarly Sir William Otis, who came to examine Granny Pheen’s letters. “He settled grimly among Isola’s sheaves of hemlock and hyssop, dusted his fingers with a snowy handkerchief, fitted a little glass into on e eye, and slowly removed the first letter from the biscuit tin.” Such respectful care in handling the letters. And I even appreciated the author’s selection of ‘hemlock and hyssop’ as a setting.
And what about Billie Bee and that telegram to Juliet?! Alarms went off when I read that telegram. Sending silly Billie Bee to pick up the letters…the originals, no less? Sidney would certainly have notified Juliet himself if that’s what he wanted. I do not trust this woman!
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Bellamarie, although my comments were directed to all, I wasn’t confusing you with anyone.
I have a feeling, I would have liked the book much more, had I not looked for deeper meanings, and symbolism. I may read it again, at my leisure one day.
Bellamarie
JoanR, as you say, definitely not “chick lit.” I’m so glad to hear that some husbands read it also, and would like to know opinions also.
JoanP, if you aren’t the keeper of fascinating secrets. ;D It wasn’t until just now, reading the quotes in your post and seeing Jean’s “Dorsey,” that “Darcy” came into mind. And I certainly didn’t associate Juliet Ashton’s initials with those of Jane Austen. Barrows and Shaffer were just full of surprises.
I’m really looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts about the ending anecdotes. Did Oscar Wilde really have all those initials?
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pedln,
Bellamarie, although my comments were directed to all, I wasn’t confusing you with anyone.
Forgive me, if it seemed you were directing your post, with my name in front of it, to me.
pedln, Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader. It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper.
It seems you have taken offense to my post, for no reason I can understand. I was only responding to maryz's post, thinking that I too may enjoy it at my leisure without the digging deep and symbolism. It does not indicate, I did not enjoy the discussion with the book club. I have read many reviews at Amazon.com, and they are all pretty much in sync, with all that we have come away with. As moderator, I hope you do not feel because they are not all positive it reflects you. Those of us who chose to do the digging, I am certain are thrilled with all we found.
JoanP, Yes, I did make the comparison to J.A. (Juliet Ashton) and Jane Austen, and Darcy and Dawsey. Mary Ann did a fine job, including all her favorites with her characters. The research had to take hours upon hours, as she confirmed:
"Unfortunately, books don't spring fully formed from their author's foreheads. This one required years of research and writing.... " Mary Ann Shaffer
Gumtree, I saw on the news where more fires have begun this morning, but seem to be contained. My prayers are with you and your fellow Austrailans.
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I think authors often have trouble ending their books. They sometimes just "end" it, or write what's predictable - as in Guernsey IMO. Maybe they don't want to leave their characters, or maybe they want to write more, but it would make the book too long. Or sometimes it may just be that they've run out of story and the characters no longer have anything interesting to do or say. ..........................jean
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Jean, I agree with you. I also wondered, if it's possible, Marry Ann's sickness caused a more rapid ending, explaining the disarray, I felt, for me, was in those last pages. As I have been thinking, the ending almost reminded me of Lady Susan, by Jane Austen. Now, there's a thought to ponder.
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Some of my summery thoughts – also my satisfaction with the denouement.
So many unrelated thoughts crowded my mind I had to take a deep breath and start with the Title – according to the title this is really a book about a literary and food society located on the island of Guernsey – further – it is a literary society that was spontaneously created by a visitor from Britain against a backdrop of occupation during a war. The book uses a devise of letters and telegrams exchanged between the characters allowing them to each speak in the first person.
That much alone reminded me of us – who was the first that established Books and Lit. on SeniorNet - it had to take at least two to start that conversation – I remember only entering a few posts in “Snow Falling on Cedars” – but I thought the first was “Stones from the River” – I remember being shy and not sure enough of how to analyze a story when “Jude The Obscure” was discussed and so I lurked – this is when Roslyn Stempel and LJ Klein were with us holding forth in their brilliance – there was you Joan and Ginny and Pat West and Larry Hanna as well as a few others - I was in awe –
And then - y’all crashed in my opinion learned in the eighth grade – the next book chosen was Dickens’s “Hard Times” – Dickens no less – I could hear Sister Mary Imelda – Dickens was a trash novelist whose work appeared as serials in magazines. Carrying on with her judgmental attitude I was sure Books & Lit was not where I should be - it was going by way of the old magazine “True Confessions” – then Ginny started “Queen Lucia” and I was hooked with “Sir Gawain…” following “Hard Times,” allowing me to feel redeemed as I joined the ranks of Roslyn Stempel and others.
But I still wonder who were the first and how did they announce to the world what they were attempting – I thought there was a group on AOL that started earlier and who later joined us – I remember Seniornet just before the Thanksgiving of 1997 when there was a mock dinner being planned and everyone shared the dish they were bringing – and so we also had an interest in food.
Over the years, like the characters in this book we have bolstered each other, had occasions to meet each other, sent gifts and notes when a regular was ill, congratulations with the birth of each grandchild followed by photos for us all to gush over, even a marriage partner was found through Books and Lit., we offered solace and created memorial pages as some of us passed away, I still have emails saved from some of our deceased bookies.
And so our conception was not with a backdrop of war but with a backdrop of the newest technology that allowed us to find folks all over the world with a like interest in discussing book. As the Technology grew so did our ability to share background information and photos that enlarged our enjoyment of the story. We even had a discussion with an author who joined us from Italy – remember Renato’s Luck, also, you Joan and Ginny sharing so many photos from your travels that furthered the understanding of many books.
I started to ransack my brain for other books written as letters - I remembered – there was a series of letters in a PBS special from a women in Maine and a gentleman in London discussing gardening called “The 3000-Mile Garden” – I found the book and ordered a used copy for $1.80 + shipping.
The other aspect of this book that reminds me of so many British writers –like dropping gumdrops in a theatre they use phrases, titles and authors as metaphors to further the story – Reading “The Guernsey Literary…” reminded me I never did finish Byatt’s “Possession” with all the titles and authors packed into that story –I finally broke down and purchased a guide– I am concerned the guide which has not arrived yet, may not give me what I want which is a synopsis of all those mentioned books and authors.
Whoops got carried away – my thoughts on your question Joan after dinner.
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Wow, Barbara - that was a trip down memory lane! Yes, I thought of us, our SN bookclub in its infancy too! The first discussion was Ginny's - Snow Falling on Cedars in 1996...followed by the Odyssey. You have a great memory - I'm just wondering how you could have forgotten James Joyce's Portrait of an Artist. I though both of us were going to lose it over that one. And to think that we were considering to do his Ulysses after that! ;D
It is late here in the east. I need to go downstairs and get my book to reread the ending. Will do that in the morning, but I will say tht I think we need to look closer at Isola's "Private Detection" notes again ...before we begin to consider them as Jane Austen's Lady Susan cop-out. Did the authors choose to end the book with these Isola's notes? Did they have anything at all to do with the story? Could they have been included in letter-form? (Only if Isola had written them to herself - which is what she did, more or less.)
I think that we need to pursue Oscar Wilde's letters to Isola's grandmother too. Taken in context, they mean something , I know they do... I think we owe the authors a second look.
A larger question perhaps, is when and why did they decide to shift the focus from Juliet to Isola? Jean, do you believe they inserted all the Isola episodes because they didn't know how to end the Juliet-Dawsey story - or the book?
We need to talk, but my pillow looks mighty tempting. Night all! See you in the morning.
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Re Isola: She was one of my favorites from the time her parrot bit off the head of the cuckoo (he of the clock).
Isola is like the court jester seeing things others don't see by means unlike those others use.. All like her but only Sidney truly appreciates her.
He sent her the Calypers so she could continue investigating in her very humorous way. By bringing in the story of Oscar Wildes letters we have a literary reference to a great writer ,humorists and teller of tales, writer of plays and spinner of fairy tales. He is one of the few authors I loved as a child(fairy tales), adolescent (poetry) and adult(plays).
Possibly no one else will agree with me but when all is said and done about this book Isola is the most original character of all and perhaps the author loved her more and more as she continued the story. Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.
Also,like Sidney, Wilde was gay and suffered mightily for it.
Jude
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Off Topic:
Bellamarie Thanks for your concern. The bushfire situation is still dangerous - yesterday 5 firefighters were injured and required hospitalisation, another house was destroyed and of course there are countless cases minor burns and injuries let alone the effects of trauma. Even though the fire threat has eased somewhat conditions are expected to worsen during the week with Friday tipped to have high temperatures and strong winds - ideal for bushfire, so Victoria is bracing itself for another onslaught.
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Oh Gumtree, I am very sorry to hear, there is still danger. My prayers are with you.
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Edit - Gum, I just now see your post. The situation is so unbelievable! Is there a forecast for rain in the near future? Please stay close, we are all so concerned for you and your land!
Good morning, jude - Thank you for your comments on Isola's character -
Isola is like the court jester seeing things others don't see by means unlike those others use.. All like her but only Sidney truly appreciates her.
I did not know Oscar Wilde's fairy tales as a child. JoanR - after reading your post, I did read his Happy Prince (http://fiction.eserver.org/short/happy_prince.html)...and recognized echos of the story in GLPPPS. It is such a sad tale. What other children's tales did he write? Did they involve cats, do you suppose?
Babi described the scene where Sir William Otis so reverently examined Granny Pheen's letters - and as he did, I felt that although this was fiction, that the authors had done enough research that there could be an element of truth here - and that with a little stretch of imagination, Oscar Wilde could have sent such letters to this little girl. Do you remember why he had written them?
What do you think of Jude's suggestion as to why the story seems to shift its focus to Isola at the end?
Possibly no one else will agree with me but when all is said and done about this book Isola is the most original character of all and perhaps the author loved her more and more as she continued the story. Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.
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I'm finding it hard to get back into the discussion
I really was surprised that Annie Barrows wrote that Dawsey's name is related to Mr. D'Arcy's and Juliet's initials aren't JA by accident - well I had twigged the JA easily enough but the Dawsey/D'arcy had me foxed until I read Jean's post that pointed out that depending on your accent the two words sound alike. In the Aussie accent they certainly don't sound alike! Rather something like this..
D'Ar -as in Star - cy as in see
Daw- as in saw- sey as in zee
I think the Oscar Wilde diversion was a trifle too contrived and was left until too late in the book. It appeared to me to be simply showing off the author's knowledge - perhaps too much of a good thing...The other literary figures were mentioned more as a means of developing the characters and providing the reader with more understanding of their thought processes.
I need to reread the Wilde section and Isola's Detection notes-
JudeS sees Isola as the most original character of all - I agree though I don't really see her as the court jester - sometimes she is the devil's advocate - sometimes the odd man out. Either way she knows what she thinks and has emotions that run deep - as when on occasion she must disappear for a while to deal with events.
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PedlnOscar Wilde really did have all those initials - I can't remember if it was mentioned in the book but his name was :
Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde.
When I was reading a biography of him I became fascinated with his family - his father was an eye and ear specialist as well as being a noted Irish antiquarian whose archaeological work and writings still endure. Then his mother the Lady Jane Francesca was a poet and controversial journalist (one of her articles once had an issue suppressed). She wrote under the name of 'Speranza' and became a famous socialite and 'hostess' of a salon in London....a little like George Eliot perhaps...
Another piece of Wilde trivia was this which I found in a genealogical journal years ago:
A Wild One
London, St Pancras Parish Register
1894, William Euston - child found in a box in a railway carriage at Euston Station
Baptised July 14th, 1894[/i][/b]
So Wilde can't be accused of being too far fetched in The Importance of Being Earnest. I'm not sure when he wrote that....
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JoanP and Bellamarie I just saw your posts...thanks for your good wishes. Widespread rain is something we pray for - only that will put the fires out and reduce the risk of further outbreaks but there is none in sight for the immediate future. Would you believe that one fire started yesterday when a thresher sparked - as simple as that - and the fire was out of control in minutes. The current threat is very close to the outskirts of Melbourne.
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What excitement! Can you imagine having letters written to your Granny from a remarkably imaginative and kind gentleman, and it appears he was Oscar Wilde? I never knew his full name was Oscar Fingal O’Flahertie Wills Wilde? I can only suppose his mother felt he would be her only child, and piled every traditional family name on him!
Isola...court jester, devil's advocate, odd man out. Or perhaps simply a 'oner', a unique, strong and highly individual personality. I did find the shift in the story to Isola's notes to be awkward. JEAN's suggestion, that Mary Ann's failing health is responsible, makes sense. She may have been looking for a shortcut to bringing out some things she didn't have time to develop fully.
Aha! From Juliet's letter to Sophie, Kit does not like Billie Bee. Astute child! Juliet also writes to Sophie about wanting to keep Kit in her life, and her plans to see if some kind of guardianship or adoption can be managed. And she feels it would be wrong to take Kit away from the freedom of the Island and from the friends who have raised her. I like the direction this is going.
Thank goodness! Juliet writes to Sidney about Billie Bee and the letters while the woman is still on the island. I figured that news would bring a telegram back in a hurry! Plot foiled! Hurray! Bless Isola. She and Kit, with the letter safe, sitting on Billie Bee’s suitcase while Billie Bee shrieks and squalls from the smokehouse.....what an image!
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Just when you think you have almost finished with a book and are reaching its conclusion, you find an entirely new path to wander. Not that Isola is new, but her means of providing information, the notes, is. And, she is, briefly, a focus point, away from Juliet, Kit, and Elizabeth. Jude is certainly right when she says
Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.
I don’t know if this means the authors loved her more, but knowing now that they left nothing to chance, I’m sure that the increased part she plays is there for a reason.
As for the letters to Granny Pheen, it’s entirely possible. Wilde wrote lots of letters which have been intently studied by scholars. (See link and note below) I don’t know what kind of man he was – did he try to soothe Granny Pheen’s loss of her pet cat because he was a kind man who liked children or was it merely an amusement for him. (I prefer the first.) But, he wrote lots of letters and he was on Guernsey during that time period.
After learning about J.A. and Dawsey/Darcy I think the waters of Barrows/Shaffer flow deep.
From the New York Times (and also similar in many other papers) – Dec. 2008
Lost volume found (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/arts/design/05voge.html)
A volume of Wilde letters not seen for over 50 years has been donated to NY's Morgan Library.
“It was one of those happy surprises,” Ms. Nelson said. “It was last seen in a 1953 London sale catalog.”
Edit -- Babi and Gumtree -- I see you as I'm posting. That's quite a full name -- OFO'FW. I want to know more about this man. Good point, Babi about Kit not liking Billie-Bee. Still wonder why she's in the book at all.
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Babi, I actually was the one who mentioned, possibly Mary Ann's sickness may have caused the ending to come sooner, then she anticipated. I just feel the ending was not in sync with the story. For me... as soon as Juliet arrived in Guernsey, its like the story took a rather hurried turn, and things got so odd. Your words have me thinking,
She may have been looking for a shortcut to bringing out some things she didn't have time to develop fully.
JoanP, I think we need to look closer at Isola's "Private Detection" notes again ...before we begin to consider them as Jane Austen's Lady Susan cop-out.
"cop-out" now that's interesting? I'm not sure I would use those words for Jane Austen's Lady Susan's ending, and certainly not Mary Ann's Guernsey.
In Lady Susan, one of the love interests was: Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy a fictional character and one of two protagonists in Jane Austen's novel Pride and Prejudice. I found this interesting:
Jane Austen
Major works Sense and Sensibility (1811) · Pride and Prejudice (1813) · Mansfield Park (1814) · Emma (1815) · Northanger Abbey (1817) · Persuasion (1817)
Minor works Lady Susan · Sanditon (unfinished) · The Watsons (unfinished)
Juvenilia Love and Freindship · The Beautifull Cassandra · The History of England
Characters Fitzwilliam Darcy · Elizabeth Bennet · Elinor Dashwood · Anne Elliot
__________________________
The way Jane Austen ended Lady Susan, and Mary Ann ended Guernsey, left me with the same feeling, and the word "unfinished", is a perfect word, to describe how I felt.
I have written to Annie, with some questions, and hope she can clear up a few things, that have troubled me with the ending. Was it PatH, who was going to supply us with some answers she was posing to Annie, and was waiting til the end so as not to spoil anything?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/glitpotpeelpie2.jpg) |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 22-28 Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946
1. What did you think of this novel made up entirely of letters as a means of telling a story? Did it work for you? Did the characters come alive through this means of expression?
2. What historical facts concerning World War II did you discover? Can fiction sometimes make historic events more understandable or does it distort the facts?
3. Do you believe that books have the power to lift people out of the most trying circumstances?
4. Juliet sees Dawsey Adams as Charles Lamb. Did she ever see him as Jane Austen's Mr. Rochester or Mr.Darcy? Are these men at all alike? How was Dawsey different from other men Juliet had known?
5. What effect did Remy Girard's arrival on the scene after the war have on the members of the literary society? What was Juliet's reaction to her coming? Why did Remy decide to leave?
6. Why do you think Isola's grandmother's letters from Oscar Wilde about cats were included in this story?
7. When did you first suspect that Juliet and Dawsey might become romantically involved? What part did Isola play in making the match?
8. Why do you think the authors decided to end the book with Isola's "Detection Notes"? Did they add an element to the story that could not have been achieved in letters?
9. What does a reader’s taste in books say about his or her personality?
Which characters' literary opinions are most like your own? Did you have a favorite?
10. Do you agree with Isola that “reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad one"?
Are there some "good books" you intend to read as a result of this book discussion?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html); Annie Barrows Responds to Readers (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/guernsey/quest&answers.htm)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
Good morning, FlaJean - I'm curious to hear your husband's response to the book? Did he have the emotional moments that you did
Yes, but no tears.
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I'm sorry that i wrote Dorsey instead of D'Arcy - fibro fog had sat in, but i guess the accent i tho't about was sort of Irish/Scottish Dawsey - Darcy - leaving out the strong "r" sound, thinking of the New England accent here in the states, and i was pronouncing "sey" as "see," as "c". Interesting to hear from Annie about the J.A. connection.
I don't have my book any more, so it's hard for me to go back and remember my tho'ts as i was reading, but i'm still enjoying your comments.
Barbara - nice memories of the SN journey. Even for us who have come to SN/SL/SF later it is nice to hear. .............jean
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Was it PatH, who was going to supply us with some answers she was posing to Annie, and was waiting til the end so as not to spoil anything?
No, it wasn't me. I don't have the courage to write authors.
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Re Oscar Wilde.. He wrote two books of fairy tales "A House of Pomegranates" and "The Happy prince and Other T ales."
Anyone who wishes to enter his magical world has only to enter his name plus the words fairy tales and then press on one of the titles to read it (in an artistic script no less).
In another web article ,"Oscar Wilde's Fairy Tales " by Prof. Clifton Snider he says that "Wildes Fairy Tales "signalled the advent of his greatest creative period".
In GLPPPS I loved the scene with the little girl crying and Wilde's caring response.
Fairy Tales are a non-rational approach to human life. So Isola's quirky responses in the end save the day as in the moment she catches Billie Bee because "her Duplicitous Bump was as big as a goose egg".
Isola also sees herself as Miss Marple (she of Agatha Christie Fame). Another one of my favorite literary characters.
This book has been a memory evoking orgy for me.
Thanks to all who suggested it and voted for it.
Jude
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Oh sorry PatH, I did find the post I was looking for.
Laura, #249 on: February 14, 2009, 06:35:55 AM
I have been lurking, waiting to jump in with Annie’s comments. Most of them are pertinent to the whole book, so you will have to wait a bit longer on most of them.
Maybe Laura, will return with the comments from Annie, she was waiting to share with us.
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There are two ways of looking at the inclusion of Isola's grandmother's letters from Oscar Wilde. Perhaps the author wanted to include Wilde because of her fondness for his writings. The authors have included a number of writers so why not Oscar Wilde? But I see it in another light. The thought has occurred to me that there is symbolism at work here. I think the cruel destruction of the cat represents the German's attempt to destroy the British people and drive them into the sea. The Battle of Britain was particularly vicious but English military superiority won out. The man in the coach to me represents Churchill who saved Britain. Solange, nee Muffin, represents the Free French, England's only ally at the time, until the Fall of France.
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The thought has occurred to me that there is symbolism at work here. I think the cruel destruction of the cat represents the German's attempt to destroy the British people and drive them into the sea.
from lucky
Wow, Lucky, you may well be right. None of us really know the authors’ intent about that, but it certainly could be, and that’s a very astute observation. Good for you.
Jude, thank you for all the glimpses of Oscar Wilde. I am following your advice and have found fairy tales to click on – availabe to read online. This site below lists several that are available online. I think I'll try The Selfish Giant. I've heard the name, but that's about all.
Fairy Tales by OFOFWW (http://wilde.artpassions.net/)
Jean, don’t worry about Dorsey/D’Arcy. Anyone who made the connection did well.
I think we’re all probably in agreement that Isola is a wonderful quirky fascinating character, and may even be the one the authors liked best. And we’ve called her many different names – court jester, odd man out, good friend, and so forth. Does anyone see her as child-like? I don’t mean anything childish or derogatory, more like having qualities of children – she’s full of wonder at the things around her, she’s enthusiastic, she’s not afraid to try new things, nor does she shy away from things she doesn’t understand. And she’s outspoken in her likes and dislikes. Now I've got todo some rereading -- why does Jude -- or was it Gum -- say that Sidney is the only one who appreciates her.
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PEDLN, thanks for the OFOFWW link. It looks lovely. I've marked it so I can go back and explore it at my leisure. And I like your view of Isola as retaining her childlike interest in the world.
Of her "Observations", I especially enjoyed Juliet's remarkable cure for hiccups. You don’t just drink a glass of water, you have it poured down your throat. “You stomp your foot when you are close to drowning, and your friend takes the glass away. It works every time -a miracle-no more hiccups.” I wonder if anyone ever drowned from that cure? :-\
At last, Juliet ‘seizes the day’. ‘Goaded by a piece of rock’, as Isola puts it. Remember how that paperweight was one of the few items saved from the burning of her apartment in London? How precious that one remaining memento must have been, the crystal paperweight with Carpe Diem carved on it, that had belonged to her Father. How appropriate an inscription the author chose here….’Seize the day’. One simply never knows what tomorrow will bring.
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I received a response from Annie Barrows, and would like to share it. I am happy she was able to shed light on our questions, regarding the ending. Most of our book discussions, have never had the pleasure of the author's own thoughts and words written directly to us, to help us with the insights into their writing. I am thrilled, Annie took the time to answer all our questions, and share her essay with us. I am so grateful, and will cherish her emails. Hopefully, Laura or Joan will have more to share.
Dear Marie--
You were right. Isola's Detection Notes exist because the information about the culmination of the Juliet Dawsey plot couldn't be conveyed in any other way, unless Juliet wrote a giant letter after the fact, which would be (a) unlikely and (b) a lot less fun.
The Oscar Wilde episode is mostly there because Mary Ann adored Oscar Wilde.
I don't think that the focus did shift from Juliet to Isola. Isola becomes the narrator for a while, but only in order to relate what happens to Juliet. Nothing actually happens to Isola after the Oscar Wilde episode.
The ending may have a similarity to Lady Susan. I don't know because I've never read Lady Susan. Jane Austen if, of course, an inspiration throughout.
I think it's always fun to look for symbols and strands of meaning in books--it makes the experience of reading richer--but I assure you, our intention was to create an enjoyable book about a little-known episode of WWII that also served the function of touting some of our favorite books. Wherever you find your pleasure, we're all for it.
Best,
Annie____________________________
For me, Annie has provided the last pieces of the puzzle, I personally felt I needed to close out this book. Actually, I think I found the pieces, and she confirmed they fit. I had a wonderful time discussing this book with all of you. I am delighted to have had, the opportunity to learn about all the classical writers and their works, Mary Ann shared with us, in this wonderful book, and those everyone else provided. This book introduced to me, and gave me the desire to read Austen, Lamb, Morley, the Bronte's sisters, Seneca, Elizabeth van Amin, Oscar Wilde, etc. etc. It has opened up my literary awareness, beyond boundaries, I could ever imagine. It made me laugh out loud, it made me cry, it made me angry, it frustrated me, it made me sad, and it made me more sensitive to the, sufferings and strength of the people of the Channel Islands during the German Occupation. I nearly failed History class in High school because dates, times, places and events seemed so boring to me. If only, history could be taught, as Mary Ann presented it in Guernsey. I loved the characters, and even though, I may never travel to Guernsey Island, I feel a part of Guernsey, will exist in me forever. I think Mary Ann has spoiled me, and I fear I may never be able to sit and read a mundane book ever again. I feel I found a friend in the co-author, Annie Barrows, and will look forward to her adult novel. In the meantime, I am ordering Jane Austen's collection for myself and Annie Barrows, Ivy & Bean, children's books to share with my three adorable little grand daughters. I will giggle when each of them ask me questions, that show they are allowing their minds to think beyond the words on the pages, but, there will be a point where I will say, "okay, now let's get back to the story so we can enjoy this wonderful book." As Annie stated, " Wherever you find your pleasure, we're all for it."
I would like to thank the moderators, I think they had some interesting questions and insights. My only regret, is I wish we would have taken more time to share the really funny parts of the book Mary Ann and Annie provided, to help the readers and characters, get through the difficult times of the Occupation. I have so many side notes in my book with smiley faces, where I laughed right out loud. There are a few days left of the discussion, plenty of time to share the humor. For me, I find today, the observance of Ash Wednesday, the beginning of my journey to, as my good friend Sr. Myra says, "grow more in grace and holiness", a good day to say, good bye, and turn my focus toward my Bible study class, I have so neglected. I wish you all well, and look forward to future discussions with you. Gumtree, I loved bumping into you in the night, and my prayers will remain with you and your fellow Australians.
As Mary Ann's last words in the book were, I too shall end with, "Praise the Lord!"
P.S. Annie does not recommend the Potato Peel Pie, she says, " It tastes like paste! "
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So much to talk about today! (Yes, there is still plenty of time to talk about what tickled us - especially Isola's hilarious antics in the closing scenes.)
Babi, you have been great about sharing your favorites. Of all of us, you seem to have appreciated the humor. Have you had the chance to try Isola's hiccup remedy, yet? Would love to relive Isola-isms again - if you would all share your favorites - the parts you underlined. Some were laugh-out loud, some were really so wry, you had to think for a minute. Doesn't it feel as if the authors have chosen to end the book on a humorous, hilarious note, rather than leave us with a real, predictable romantic fairy-tale ending - actually the kind of romance ending Isola liked to read! Were there any other characters who brought this lightness to the story?
Gum, I was interested in your comments on Oscar Wilde...I really don't think that the purpose of including the cat letters was to show off the authors' knowledge - but we have to really dig to understand the part they played in the story.
I searched for a good long time to see if he had written any children's' tales about cats - (none that I could find - Jude did you see any?) - There were countless references to his affinity to cats - His Cat-Toast theory seems to have started it, but I can't be sure.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/5e/Cat_toast.JPG)
Oscar Wilde's Cat-Toast Device (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Murphy's_law_application_for_antigravitatory_cats#Oscar_Wilde.27s_Cat-Toast_Device)
I don't recommend you spend any time trying to figure this out, but just know that it involves a cat with nine lives, suspended between two slices of buttered toast. If you remember, Granny Pheen's Muffin was drowned because she licked her father's butter dish.
Pedln, when you wrote of the Morgan Library's recent acquisition of O. Wilde's correspondence - I wondered just how many more of his letters have yet to surface. It really isn't too far-fetched that this prolific letter writer - who loved to write stories, loved cats and loved children - and as Jude points out, he was on Guernsey at the time. I missed that!
- Lucky, the parallel you drew - Germany, trying to drown the cat - the British survival, realizing more than one life...good thinking. And then there was little Kit, who had experienced the loss of her mother - the example of Solange with a full intersesting life ahead... what a remarkable story of hope for the future!
Let's watch and share Isola's antics - and let's also consider her "Private, not to be read, even after death Detection notes."
What I loved about her careful notes - (aside from the dates on which she observed nothing!) was the fact that her powers of observation had totally failed to produce the clues she needed to persuade Remy to stay on Guernsey because Dawsey loved her!
Jean, I promise to correct the Darcy spelling in the Interview in the heading - just as soon as Laura gets here and we add the latest comments from Annie Barrows. ;) You nailed the connection between the two when none of the rest of us did!
I have a question for those of you who were unhappy with the ending. How would you like to have seen the story end?
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JoanP, as far as this book is concerned I will no longer believe in coincidence. Mary Ann Shaffer was a marvel – just so sly and smart, really clever. She had to have known about that Cat-Toast device (which I will again try to access after I get my broadband sometime this week) – suspended between buttered toast. Granny’s cat licking the butter dish -- glory be!
What have we missed? :o
Babi, you have a knack for picking out pertinent comments and scenes.
At last, Juliet ‘seizes the day’. ‘Goaded by a piece of rock’, as Isola puts it.
How many Isolaisms have we found? And when did Juliet first mention the “rock?” Early on, sometime.
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I'm here to post the rest of Annie's comments from the B&N discussion. I think I will do a question a post, so here comes a string of posts!
Who was your favorite character of the Literary Society?
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Annie: Hmm.Characters really are like your children--you love them all, even when they misbehave. However, I have to admit that I'm especially fond of Clovis Fossey because he is a true lover of poetry. But I also love Booker, and Isola, and Thompson Stubbins and Will Thisbee and . . . you see the problem. If I was able to attend one meeting, though, I think I would choose one in which Dawsey spoke--I can imagine how everyone would lean forward to hear him, because he talks so little, and I can imagine how much he would care about his book. I adore Dawsey.
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Why did you decide to add Mark into the mix?
Annie: Mark does serve the purpose of making Juliet understand who she truly is and what she truly values, and he throws the Islanders into high relief, with his sense of entitlement, his demands, and his terse messages. Also, to be honest, he plays such a large role because he was such fun to write--and because he allowed me to write the date in the proper order for once!
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Did you know from the beginning the outcome for Elizabeth? Did you ever think of changing it? It probably had to be the way it was to make the story more poignant, but you must have become attached to her. Was that a difficult decision to make?
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Annie: It was the most difficult part of writing the book, both for Mary Ann and for me. We wanted Elizabeth to live, just like everyone else, but to write that happy ending would have been dishonest. Guernsey is a World War Two story, and the truth of the war was death and death and death.There were certainly some surprise escapes and triumphs, but the far larger reality was irrational, unjust, impassive destruction. We hated it, but we had to do it.
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This is my own comment on how I felt about the letter format.
The book being composed of letters made me feel like I was back in time, when people really did communicate this way. I liked having to piece together things, based on what was in different letters. I especially liked reading what information and what tone the letters took, depending on who they were coming from and who they were to. I also liked seeing the relationships evolve as the letters contain more and more personal information and take on more familiar rather than formal tones.
I did find myself making use of the dates and the note at the top of the letter as to who it was from with every letter.
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Were all the characters invented from the onset or did they come along as the novel progressed?
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Annie: Juliet and Elizabeth were always the center of the story, and the other major characters came in very early. Many of the later arrivals were those folks on the Island who wrote to Juliet about their wartime experiences--Sally Ann Frobisher and Micah Daniels, for example. Many characters grew enormously in importance as we went on.
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Although I may have missed it I noticed not a single letter was written FROM Sophie. I've been discussing various theories with some friends (I have a particularly far out theory) and we were wondering if you or anybody would be willing to comment.
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Annie: Aha! A close reader! I'd love to hear your theories, and they're probably more interesting than the truth, which is that Sophie's voice, as we imagined it, was too close to Juliet's--same age, same education, similar life experience. Also, I think one of the fabulous characteristics of novels written in letters is what's NOT there. That way the reader is goaded into working for us.
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Annie's comment on the form of the novel.
Annie: I think the problem with most epistolery novels is too few narrators. It's very difficult to believe in a story that's told through forty-page letters by one character (who writes forty-page letters, much less forty-page letters complete with dialogue, descriptions, and background?). I believe the solution is not to bag the epistolery novel, but to have so many characters that no single one is responsible for all the story-telling. I have to say, it was tremendous fun to tell a story through so many voices. Each one gives the story a separate little charge, and each one has his or her own quirks and ideas. I don't know how I'm going to return to regular narrative again.
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How come Mr. Fox never joined the Literary Society? You do not mention him after he closes the book store. I hoped he had not encountered ill fate.
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Annie: Well, that's an interesting question. I didn't actually come up with a fate for Mr. Fox, but let's make one now. I would hate for him to come to an unfortunate end, so no arrests or death in prison or anything malign. Here's what comes to mind. 1. Mr. Fox IS a member of the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society (not all the members write letters, e.g., Jonas Skeeter) and is constantly telling the rest of the members not to break the binding, dog-ear the pages, or write in the margins. 2. Mr. Fox became so enraged when he learned that books were being burnt for fuel during the Occupation that he set sail for the island of Herm with the remnants of his collection and now lives in a dugout on that unpopulated island. He lives to a vast old age and throws rocks at picnickers who visit the island. Any other ideas, anyone?
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Why was Mr. Dilwyn chosen as Kit's guardian? There is very little mention of him in any of the letters. My thinking is that he might have been the Island barrister.
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Annie: Mr. Dilwyn isn't exactly Kit's guardian; he's the trustee of Sir Ambrose's estate, to which Kit is heir. Elizabeth left no designated guardian for Kit, and that's why she was raised by Amelia, Dawsey, and Isola in turn, but Mr. Dilwyn, as trustee for the estate of a minor, would have some authority over her living arrangements. Mr. Dilwyn is a banker, rather than a barrister, but he's also a generally prominent and trusted figure.
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Kit and Juliet are a beautiful match being that Juliet has such insight of the challenges Kit has faced (and maybe will face as she matures) regarding losing her parents. Additionally, Juliet and Kit have many similarities in character and disposition. Was the little girl developed while the book was being written or was she planned to be a character before the actual book writing began? Please explain the idea behind developing the character of Kit.
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Annie: Kit was part of the earliest concept of the book. From a plot perspective, she serves as evidence of Elizabeth's life and her relationship with Christian. Perhaps Kit is, in some ways, the letter that Elizabeth never wrote. But aside from plot, I think Mary Ann included Kit because she just loved children. My mother believes that Mary Ann based Kit on my younger daughter (and it's true that they both decline spinach in the same way). Juliet has a natural sympathy with children--witness Dominic--but she and Kit are a special match.
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I liked the book, loved Isola.. thought Kit interesting, but a bit doubtful for a child.. Juliet.. I would guess I just never warmed up to her the way others did. I loved Elizabeth, but she was definitely doomed from the start. Juliet and Elizabeth could not co exist on the island..
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Annie, would you comment on how and why the journal format was used? Thanks.
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Annie: The only other way for the climax to play out would be in a letter (or letters) from Juliet to Sidney or Sophie, and I think this would have mired us right smack in the middle of the episistolery problem. It's just not natural for someone in the throes of love to sit down and write a twenty-page letter telling how it all shook down. There was no precedent--or rationale--for the members of the Society to write to one another, and for one of them to do so would again have been counter-intuitive. It didn't seem to us that consistency of format was terrifically important. So the solution was to switch to the journal, and who better to rely upon than Isola, who is utterly likely to be in the center of the action and utterly unlikely to interpret the action correctly. Plus, I have to admit, Isola's voice is a pleasure to write.
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Oh Laura, thank you, thank you, thank you. What a delightful treat to read all your questions and Annie Barrows answers that you have so thoughtfully shared with us.
I want to go back and reread and comment, but if I don't get into my swim suit and off to the Fitness Center this minute I will end up saying, "nuts to it," and stay home and become an unbendable metal rod. So, later.
But how lovely of you, and of Annie. Fantastic.
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Yes, Fantastic - loved how humor was inserted even while answering questions about the characters. Mr. Fox on a deserted Island thowing things at tourists - I love it...
Along those lines is there, or was there and I missed it, an actual recipe for the Potato Peel Pie - I am imagining a sort of Shepherd's pie since they had all those potatoes along with veggies from their garden, cooked in sea water, minus the meat since we know neither meat or fish was available and the potato peels used as a crust.
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As I think I mentioned before, I read this book in its entirety last Aug or Sept and read it again as we discussed it. I thought it was a very thoughtful, well written book. I enjoyed the humor and was very concerned for all these islanders as the story unfolded and we learned about the German occupation.
I always liked Juliet, she was giddy and I think somewhat of a free spirit. But she really cared about the islanders and as she got to know them through their letters she just had to meet them. And I felt that I had to meet them too.
I pictured Dawsey as physically different. She said he was small and very thin but strong, I guess she meant wiry. I pictured him as bigger, but of course after the deprivations of the war, everyone was too thin.
I liked Dawsey from the beginning. Sending her the flowers which were her favorites, laying in the hayloft reading the book of poetry. He was a kind and sensitive man.
I was hoping they would get together and make a home for Kit, and they did.
It was a lovely story of people coming together, dealing with, and overcoming adversity and falling in love along the way. I enjoyed this book very much.
Thank you JoanP and Pedlin for leading the discussion.
I'm sorry I didn't contribute more, but everyone had so much to say...I just didn't know what I could add. As I take part in more book discussions, perhaps I'll be able to add more. In the meantime, I guess I'm a lurker.
Evelyn
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A few thoughts I cannot let go by - Elizabeth's death and the change in the characters and voice of the story after her death.
I have read how within our literary DNA are symbolic meanings - just as we all know without words that red is a sign to stop while green is go forward and a red and white striped pole says a Barbar practices his trade on that site - I have two books filled with the symbolic meaning of expression - the ceremony written that pictures Elizabeth's death grabbed me and this is what I learned.
The Poplar tee is a tree of the waters depicting the Elysian Fields.
An allee of poplar trees is like an arbor over a walkway and therefore symbolic of a passage which depicts the change from one plane to another, from this world to the next transcended by mind and spirit.
Kneeling is a generative force showing strength depicting homage to a superior, supplication , submission and inferiority.
The head which can be transfered to reading the head bumps - but for Elizabeth she was shot in the back of her head. - the head along with the heart is the chief member of the body, the seat of life-force and the soul with its power. It denotes wisdom; mind; control; rule. The head is the seat of both intelligence and folly and is the first object of both honour and dishonour: the crown of glory and wreath of victory are placed on the head, but so are the ashes of mourning and penitence, the fool's cap and the coals of fire. In consecration and dedication the head is crowned or shaven. There is more written and many cultures as well as religions have additional symbolisms for the head.
And so that is the image of Elizabeth we have at the climax of the story -
While reading a story, the theme might not be that obvious at first. Many people confuse the theme with the subject of the story, but a theme is more abstract than the subject. The theme of a story is the idea that holds the story together. In essence, a theme is the main idea or some type of lesson or message that the author wants to convey to the reader. http://classiclit.about.com/od/bytheme1/ht/aa_identitheme.htm
there are other links that agree with the how we find a theme - we are told to look how the protagonist changes - and there is the big question --- if this is a story about Elizabeth then her change is her death - before her death we see little change in the stories of how she lived her life.
I am thinking the protagonist is Juliet - what is the change and where in the story does it occur - Before Elizabeth's death is revealed Juliet is a breezy witty writer reacting to life like a ball being hit in a racket ball court. She continues with her headlong impulses, writing full of wit even after she comes to Guernsey.
I see the change to a less confident, questioning who Dawsey is really, caring about Kit, quiet and warm picnic on the beach - she seems more solid without the breezy nature and need for independence that she adapted after the death of her parents. I think the climax for Juliet was when Kit came flying in, raised her skirt a quarter of an inch and kissed her kneecap.
Symbolism again, a Child embodies potentialities, possibilities of the future, simplicity, innocence, and a higher transformation of the individuality reborn into perfection.
A Kiss is a token of good will; peace; sealing a pact; good faith; fellowship; reconciliation; affection. We know from Elizabeth's symbolism that a knee is the generative force; vitality; strength.
I think that Juliet was hiding her real strength under her breezey witticisms after she sealed up with the death of her parents. If the death of her parents had no meaning to her character then why include it.
As to Isola taking on the importance after Elizabeth's death - I think the ping pong between Elizabeth and Juliet moved the story along till Elizabeth's death and then we are left with a maturing Juliet without a counter character - who of the Literary society could finish the story - Isola tells us Dawsey became more quiet - Eben is an old man - readers would not have put up with listening to Adelaide and so who else to move the story forward. Reading the heads and therefore the souls of the islanders was a brilliant bit of theatre that made her in my mind a voodoo princes.
The end to me shows Juliet re-capturing her spirit of going forward without fear that seemed lost as she dithered over how Dawsey thought of her - she was heading that way when we read how while telling off Mark she brings up Charles Lamb.
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There is so much to respond to - even the responses call for answers - and so little time!
This discussion has been tremendous; we have scrutinized every possible aspect and literary references. In Juliet's letter to Sophie of September 7, 1946, a small leather book of Rilke's poetry is referred to, a gift for Eliabeth from Christian. Was that mentioned? Have I missed it?
Like Barbara, I saw humor in the book, not the rip-roaring variety of course, but a bit of levity, which can be such a godsend. The energetic Isola provided a good part of it - a marvelously drawn character - and she becomes the catalyst for the happy ending. How did you feel about the timing?
Frankly, Juliet did not grow on me. I too found her "giddy" (as someone described her earlier) and rather self-absorbed, too, at least until she met little Kit.
IMHO we have no choice but to accept the book as it is written. It is futile to speculate how much Annie Barrows added to or omitted from the original manuscript. In her Acknowledgement Annie says "Susan's strength of vision was essential in making the book what it wanted to be ..."
Epistolary novels are not necessarily and not always written by different characters. An excellent example was written by Jane Gardam, a British author in her early eighties, who is the same age as Anita Brookner but, alas, not nearly as well known in this country The book o which I am referring is "Queen of the Tambourine", an epistolary novel written by one person (who's a bit odd) to her neighbor, who never answers. It was a fantastic read for me. I won't divulge any details so as not to spoil it for anyone interested to read it.
From all we have seen, the Channel Islands certainly look like a part of paradise. Victor Hugo must have thought so. He spent nineteen years of voluntary exile there, first on Jersey, then on Guernsey, where he wrote "Les Misérables".
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I don't think we have been giving Dawsey enough credit. Remember that he is the 'go-to' guy among this group of friends. When there is a problem, everyone heaves a sigh of relief when Dawsey shows up. Dawsey can always take care of it. He is obviously intelligent, capable, and a natural leader. We seem to consider him a mismatch for Juliet because he is an Islander and she is from sophisticated London. 'Sophistication' has never been all that important a trait to me.
I would like to offer this commentary, from Seneca’s letter on “Maxims”. His correspondent had asked him to include in each of his letters ‘selected sayings of our outstanding teachers’. He refused, replying that “You may recognize unevenness in a work when attention is attracted by what raises above the level”.
He considered that an intelligent, well-educated adult should be ‘producing bons mots, not quoting them.’ I particularly appreciated these lines: “The men who made the old paths are not our suzerains but our pioneers. Truth is open to all; it has not been pre-empted. Much of it is left for future generations.”
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Laura, the answers you received from Annie Barrows are a treasure trove of information. We are just so fortunate to have this. I am impressed with how the authors endeavored to remain true to all the various aspects of the story, how they paid attention to the fine print– for example, not having any letters from Sophie because her voice was so similar to Juliet’s. And using the journal format in the end because having islanders writing to one another was simply off base. (They've convinced me that sometimes you have to move out of format to make the story progress correctly.)
Thinking about Elizabeth, Juliet, and Kit – they are all orphaned at a relatively young age, their upbringing is not typical – they are allowed a great deal of freedom, can choose their own paths. So many similarities between the three of them.
Barbara, you have given us much to think about and ponder
I think the climax for Juliet was when Kit came flying in, raised her skirt a quarter of an inch and kissed her kneecap.
from Barbara
That was lovely, wasn’t it. And I liked when she patted Juliet’s face until she woke up, then gave her her box of treasures. Showing such trust.
Traudeee, Queen of the Tambourine sounds interesting. Now that y ou mention in, an epistolary written by one person offers up a lot of interesting possibillities.
I think the reason I like this format so much is that one gets acquainted with the characters quickly. Everyone cuts right to the chase; they don’t put in a lot of erroneous stuff. What’s there is there for reason.
Babi, Dawsey is the practical one. While everyone else is greeting the newcomer, he’s making sure her bags are on the the right cart. He tries to keep a tipsy Booker quiet, and then gets him home. As you say, everyone depends on him. I thought it interesting that he had all these Juliet momentos, but was really not doing anything to push forward his cause. She had to propose, didn’t she.
Evelyn, I’m so glad that you joined this discussions. We welcome your comments and you did just fine. As for being a lurker, I think there’s a bit of that in all of us.
More later, but I'm off to the Stars and Stripes Museum in Bloomfield, MO -- checking it out for a future Red Hats trip.
What were some of your favorite parts. Hard to choose, there were so many.
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Here's my favorite part, from the very end of the book:
Juliet said, "A lot of men don't keep mementos, Isola. Don't want keepsakes. That doesn't necessarily mean a thing. What on earth were you looking for?"
"Evidence, like Miss Marple does. But no, not even a picture of her. There's lots of pictures of you and Kit, and several of you by yourself. One of you wrapped up in that lace curtain, being a Dead Bride. He's kept all your letters tied up in hat blue hair ribbon --- the one you thought you'd lost. I know he wrote Remy at the hospice, and she must have written him back --- but no, nary a letter from Remy. Not even her handkerchief --- oh, he found one of yours. You might want it back, it's a pretty thing."
I found myself wanting to laugh at the absurdity of the situation, to cry with joy over Dawsey loving Juliet, to strangle Isola for her meddling stupidity, and to shout hooray for a happy ending all at the same time when I read this passage.
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Oh yes, the book contains many wise and memorable remarks, some expressed in the voices Society members in talking about their chosen book. Take Augustus about the "The Canterbury Tales", for example. All of Juliet's correspondents are vividly drawn, absolutely believable, and some are funny - like Isola. Juliet (and the authors of the book) have a flair for sketching people to perfection with a few quick strokes. That is true, I believe, especially for the depiction of Mark and Dawsey.
What interested me was not so much whom Juliet would eventually marry, but the story of the GLAPPP Society itself, a story about man's inhumanity to man, about the suffering to which innocents are subjected in wartime; about human resilience and perseverance in desperate circumstances; about the miracle of unexpected kindness- even love; about hope, and about healing. Moreover I believe that Juliet was not only a healer but she herself was healed, and who could ask for more?
I don't know whether Rilke's poetry was mentioned, but since the reference is in the book, I'd like to pick it up. Rainer Maria Rilke (1875-1926), is considered one of the finest German poets and prose writers of the 20th century. LikeFranz Kafka, twelve years his junior, Rilke was born in Prague, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Rilke anthologies are available on the net, superbly translated.
(It as not uncommon at that time to give a son the second name of "Maria".)
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Ahhh Yes!!!
Juliet was not only a healer but she herself was healed, and who could ask for more?
That I think is the underlining theme - it is the arc of Juliet - from the first pages as she describes meringue served at a London luncheon - to the last page - Dawsey demanding her immediate attention after Juliet suggests marriage is only the beginning not the end. Along the way I see Juliet has opened herself for the vulnerabilities of receiving and giving love.
And the other theme that you hit the nail on the head a story about man's inhumanity to man, about the suffering to which innocents are subjected in wartime; about human resilience and perseverance in desperate circumstances; about the miracle of unexpected kindness- even love; about hope, and about healing.
Perfect - I am at peace - that nails it for me - thankyou :-*
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Yes, as ever, Traude's eloquence captures the essence.
I'm one of those who prefer to read a book without necessarily knowing anything about the author or what he/she intended by writing about it. I know that, as in this discussion, such knowledge amplifies the text but I always come back to the fact that a book is a work of art and any work of art must stand alone. The reader/viewer/listener must first see it for itself - but naturally a good book leads one to explore further possibilities during subsequent readings and on occasion, during the first.
Whilst it was great to have Annie Barrows' input (and I'm grateful to those who pursued and shared that information ) I really feel that Annie's responses, while interesting in themselves, were not important to the story otherwise the authors would have included that matter in the text. I know that all sounds too black and white but fundamentally that's how I feel about it.
I'm sure just about everything has been raised and discussed in different ways already but there is one little matter which I don't think came up -
Did anyone consider that Elizabeth may have been Dawsey's first love (unrequited). He could well have worshipped from afar - certainly he wasn't given to expressing his feelings even to Juliet - despite collecting mementos. Elizabeth and Dawsey were of an age and he would have seen her each time she came to the island while she was growing up. When Dawsey saw Elizabeth and Christian together for the first time he quickly moved away because he could see how it was with them. I wondered whether he was cut to the quick. Dawsey, of all people, would not be one to tell anyone how he felt about it.
Then along comes Juliet, who in many ways is very like Elizabeth - lively, impulsive, caring, and searching for someone to love, a family and a home...I'm not suggesting that Juliet was second best but just that at some stage Dawsey could well have had a 'thing' for Elizabeth.
As for Juliet, apart from falling for Dawsey (and we've got to remember that there's no accounting for that attraction) she also succumbed to the beauty of Guernsey and I don't doubt she would be happy living on Dawsey's farm, writing her books, caring for Kit and no doubt raising her own children - after all, she was a farmer's daughter but since leaving school she has lived in London. How her soul must have yearned for the countryside.
It was delightful to meet all the characters - so diverse, so real and so interesting in themselves. Isola stands out. Her bird, Zenobia brought to mind that one Charlotte Bronte's characters was named Zenobia and that she too, like Isola's bird, 'had a jealous nature'.
The introduction Mary Ann Schaffer's favourite authors to explore their characteristics was a great touch but underlying all of this is the story of Guernsey and its people, their deprivation and travail during the Occupation and the courage and resilience they showed in the face of adversity.
I loved the book - so many facets and so many layers to explore now as the whim takes me. - Rilke for instance - I have only ever read a few of his poems and that so long ago it's hard to remember them but I rather think there was a certain elegance about them. Maybe I'll look for a volume of his work at the library.
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there's no accounting for that attraction
Thinking about it - it was probably in front of us the whole time - since Childhood Juliet, after her parents died, did not have what Dawsey offered - a solid, quite strength that would be there for her and as you say allows her to live in the country again as she did when she lived with Sophie and Sidney.
And yes, I agree - having an author's input is grand but it does not substitute for the reader's work to find the metaphors, the allusions and symbolism within a story that ultimately leads to the theme - that which is under the plot and tells us what is the purpose of the place, characters, actions, symbols, metaphors. By taking the time to understand how to read Literature for a few books makes it a natural extension of our reading any book.
To me it is like enjoying a garden - you can sit and have a glass of wine and enjoy the color and look of the garden or you can walk along enjoying not only the overall ambiance but by knowing the growing habits of the plants you can admire the skill that was used to include various plants and train various plants or prune an espalier. To know the symbolic meaning of plants is to know the message from the gardener. To know the names of herbs can allow you to find how the herbs can assist our health and tastes in cooking.
Because we know the growing habits of the plants we can know what to expect the garden's care will require and when the garden will peak, what plants will have to be replaced and what plants will reseed themselves. To really appreciate the work of a gardener is to know the plants the gardener is using to create the ambiance we so enjoyed with that glass of wine or glass of iced tea.
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I see I am not the only one who feels STRAUDE expressed our feelings perfectly. "...about human resilience and perseverance in desperate circumstances; about the miracle of unexpected kindness- even love; about hope, and about healing." This, to me, is what made this book so moving and so enjoyable.
I am so glad to have read this book and to have been able to talk about it with others. Thank you so much, Pedln and JoanP.
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I really didn't realise how close we are to the end of this discussion. Already it is the 28th so I must say a big
Thank You to Pedln and JoanP
Thanks for hosting:
GLPPPS - FIRST BOOK OF THE MONTH ON THE NEW SITE
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Loved it !
GUM
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Thank you, Gum& Babi - but I know I can speak for Pedln, the pleasure was all ours! We enjoyed the book on so many levels, but your input was what made the discussion so rewarding.
Gum, Barbara - I hear what you are saying about author input. We want to learn from this experience. It is "grand" to learn of the authors' intent, research, etc, but perhaps we need to wait until we have all read - and discussed the book first. The same thing goes for inviting an author into one of our discussions.
As Barbara says, it is "the reader's job to find the metaphors, the allusions and symbolism within a story that ultimately leads to the theme"...and I think as a group, we come to the realization of the theme during the discussion.
There are some of us who enjoyed reading the book for the story, without delving into the symbolism, metaphors, etc., but as you say, it is the more abstract, underlying theme that holds the story together.
I feel that through this discussion, we reached a consensus of the underlying theme, so well summarized by Traudee.
From some of Annie Barrow's comments, I enjoy the realization that perhaps we are seeing more in the story than even the authors fully realized. The two of them did such a good job depicting the characters that we now see them as real people, with pasts and motivations...Gum, I think it is very possible that Dawsey and Elizabeth had once been an item before the war. Do you think the authors had this in mind in their frequent allusions to Pride and Prejudice? Annie Barrows answered Jean's question that "Dawsey's name is related to Mr. Darcy's" Did you notice that Mr. Darcy's love interest in P&P is Elizabeth Bennett?
So many interesting items posted here yesterday. I can't wait to get to them, but must get to "gym" class today as I've missed far to many.
GUM, we do have two or more whole days - and I'm looking forward to more of your eye-opening comments!
Carpe diem!
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Such eloquence from you all..............thank you for your tho'ts and analysis...........thank you Joan and Pedln for hosting us. These discussion are like having tea w/ friends who have similar interests...........so i'm brewing up some English tea in honor of Juliet and her friends...................and waiting for the next book and discussion.........actually i'm going to Ella's house for Team of Rivals..................loved it, thank you all again................jean
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Dear Pedlin and JoanP,
I will end with this quote from Christopher Morley from "The Haunted Bookshop""
"There is no such thing as a good book. A book is good only when it meets some human hunger or refutes some human error. A book that is good for me would very likely be punk for you....There is no one so grateful as the man to whom you have just given the book his soul needed and he never knew it."
I don't remember where I found this quote. Was it in this book? However it seemed an appropriate place and time for it.
See you with the Hedgehog in hand.
Jude
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/glitpotpeelpie2.jpg) |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/PotPeelPieTitle4.jpg)
The year is 1946. Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war." Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war. |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1-7 *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946
Feb. 8-14 *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946
Feb. 15-21 *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946
Feb. 22-28 *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/glitpotpeelpie/potpeelpstmk85.jpg)
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Feb. 22-28 Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946
1. What did you think of this novel made up entirely of letters as a means of telling a story? Did it work for you? Did the characters come alive through this means of expression?
2. What historical facts concerning World War II did you discover? Can fiction sometimes make historic events more understandable or does it distort the facts?
3. Do you believe that books have the power to lift people out of the most trying circumstances?
4. Juliet sees Dawsey Adams as Charles Lamb. Did she ever see him as Jane Austen's Mr. Rochester or Mr.Darcy? Are these men at all alike? How was Dawsey different from other men Juliet had known?
5. What effect did Remy Girard's arrival on the scene after the war have on the members of the literary society? What was Juliet's reaction to her coming? Why did Remy decide to leave?
6. Why do you think Isola's grandmother's letters from Oscar Wilde about cats were included in this story?
7. When did you first suspect that Juliet and Dawsey might become romantically involved? What part did Isola play in making the match?
8. Why do you think the authors decided to end the book with Isola's "Detection Notes"? Did they add an element to the story that could not have been achieved in letters?
9. What does a reader’s taste in books say about his or her personality?
Which characters' literary opinions are most like your own? Did you have a favorite?
10. Do you agree with Isola that “reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad one"?
Are there some "good books" you intend to read as a result of this book discussion?
Related Links: Author's Biography (http://www.bookbrowse.com/biographies/index.cfm?author_number=1586); Visit Guernsey (http://www.visitguernsey.com/guernsey.aspx); A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 (http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/Guernsey.htm); Charles Lamb - Selected Essays (http://essays.quotidiana.org/lamb); the letters of Seneca (http://www.stoics.com/seneca_epistles_book_1.html); Annie Barrows Responds to Readers (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/guernsey/quest&answers.htm)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) and Pedln (abart@showme.net)
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I dragged my feet on the choice of this book - another WWII story I bemoaned - but thanks, this was not only a worthy story but with the questions and responses directed at better understanding the story I gained so much more than if I read it alone sitting in the corner of my sofa. Thanks...
A P.S. seems to me we have had authors join us in the past - they all contribute in their own unique way - I do think part of why it worked was we did not look for an authority to explain the book, we enjoyed the process of discovering the inner workings of the story that often the author added to our discovery however, most were content to share their part of our reading realizing we as readers had our part in play. And so after, during or before does not seem to me to be a concern but rather that we as readers know and carry out our role -
As Harold Bloom says - "Information is endlessly available to us: where shall wisdom be found" - he says we read for the purest of all reasons; to discover and augment the self.
And the greats of how to read, Mortimer J. Adler and Charles Van Doren say, reading is about gaining increased understanding that is not available in other media forms since the other forms of media are filled with facts, statistics, data making thinking unnecessary. Reading is like catching a ball and knowing how to catch every ball that is thrown. The New Yorker says about their co-authored book How to Read, "It shows concretely how the serious work of proper reading may be accomplished..."
And so with a commitment to the work of proper reading I am looking forward to our next novel - thanks Pedlin and Joan for keeping us on track and to everyone who posted as we ventured towards finding the wisdom in the pages of the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.
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Well, thank you, Barbara - but really, it was you all who kept us on track! Thank YOU!
- I have to tell you before we move on, that during the pre-discussion I did attempt to make Will Thisbee's Potato Peel Pie. I'm not sure if it tasted like Shepherd's Pie, but my Bruce ate it all, without a complaint. He wouldn't have done this had it tasted like paste.
Gum commented at the time that the ingredients I used would not have been available to Will during the war years, but I thought I stuck pretty much to the basics...shredding potato peels, mixing with a bit of flour for the pie shell. Then I mashed the potatoes for the filling, without adding milk and butter, which was quite dry, I'll admit. I added sour cream, lots of it - was that cheating? Some diced beets, as I think Will did - and then the chives. It really wasn't bad - odd, but not bad..
Jean, you have been delight from the very beginning. I hope to join you in Ella's house for Team of Rivals if my library comes through.
I do have Elegance of the Hedgehog here on my shelf, ready for April. I hope to see many of you for that one. I think it's one where your input will add much to the appreciation of Muriel Barbery's book.
"There is no such thing as a good book. A book is good only when it meets some human hunger or refutes some human error."
Jude - the quote is from Christopher Morley's Haunted Bookshop. I've already put this on my list for future reading. I'd like to ask you if you agree with Isola when she says -
"Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad one?"
Can a bad book meet some "human hunger?" What exactly is a bad book, I wonder?
Traudee - I plan to look up Rilke - and Kafka, as we are planning a trip to Prague and Munich this summer. Bruce wants me to learn to speak Czech, but I think I'm going to just brush up on my college German. They will speak English in Prague...and German too, don't you think?
I was interested in the fact that Annie Barrows was "especially fond of Clovis Fossey because he is a true lover of poetry." Did we gravitate towards the characters who shared our literary tastes? (More on Isola...)
Evelyn, thank you - I've taken your comments to heart - "everyone had so much to say" Perhaps in future discussions, rather than putting a number of questions for the week's discussion in the header all at once, we'll just include one or two questions a day for discussion. Would that make for a better conversation? We could add another question to the list each day as we go along. We are interested in hearing from EVERYONE of you! (And remember those questions are just suggestions for discussions, not an essay test! ;) Maybe that wasn't clear to everyone.)
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Everyone reads Kafka's The Metamorphosis but to me the gem is, The Castle.
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Barbara, I did read Metamorphosis several times over the years -I think I'll follow your suggestion and give The Castle a try.
Babi, you have persuaded me to read Seneca's letters - for the wisdom within. I especially appreciated: - "He considered that an intelligent, well-educated adult should be ‘producing bons mots, not quoting them."
I am quite sure I'd love to spend some time with him!
I was also interested to read that you don't all necessarily agree with Annie Barrows on the epistolary novel - "that it is better to have so many characters that no single one is responsible for all the story-telling"
( Traudee - I might just have to look into "Queen of the Tambourine", written by one person (who's a bit odd) to her neighbor, who never answers." I have read a number of interesting exhanges between two correspondants - 84 Charring Cross Rd comes to mind, but never one letter writer!)
But Laura, I agree with you when you say - "I liked seeing the relationships evolve as the letters contain more and more personal information and take on more familiar rather than formal tones."
Annie Barrows also wrote - "it was tremendous fun to tell a story through so many voices. Each one gives the story a separate little charge, and each one has his or her own quirks and ideas."
Did we gravitate towards the characters in the book who shared our literary tastes? Most of us seem to have included Isola among our favoites - even with her journal entries. She was certainly the quirkiest character wasn't she?
Traudee found the humor a "godsend" - is humor a necessity when telling a grim story?
How important was Isola's character to the story? She becomes "the catalyst for the happy ending." Without Isola, how do you think the story might have ended?
What did you think of Isola? Was she real to you? I'll tell you that I found her easier to relate to than to Elizabeth...or to Juliet. Do you see Isola "everyman" - (or everywoman ;) ) - to a certain extent? Or is it just me? I recognize my own shortcomings and failures, in spite of my good intentions...
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I could see what you mean by Isola being "every-wo-man" however, to me she seemed more like a Priestess - a Voodoo priestess giving out gres gres or a Curandera who heals with chants while brushing the air around your body - their homes are always a jumble filled with color and mystery, birds or lizards and maybe a few cats - in today's world they appear a bit out of step - I think every culture has aspects of such a woman - often it is the grandmother type who annoys the neighbors because she grows tomatoes on her front lawn but brings soup to anyone who is ill and the kids know there is always a cookie and chat on her front porch. They get it right in a circuitous fashion and the obvious flies by their nose.
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JoanP - I loved this discussion. You don't have to change a thing in your format. --- I was simply apologizing for not posting more. --- Your questions gave us a lot to think about.
I'm looking forward to "The Elegance of the Hedgehog" and already have my book.
Thanks again to you and Pedlin for leading us.
Evelyn
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Joan P, we went to Prague, Budapest, and Vienna in 2007 - one week in each city. None of the four of us spoke even German (I'm sorry to say), and had no problem. We were mostly on our own all the time. With a bit of German, you'll do fine.
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JoanP Your Potato Peel Pie sounds great and comes close to what I imagine it would be except the sour cream would be a no-no as the milk yield was so strictly accounted for and the flour which wasn't available. I think Dawsey tells us that after the flour ran out they crushed birdseed to make a flour until that ran out too.
Isola's comment that reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones is true to a certain extent - the good book wins out every time -but I don't think there has been a book written that can't teach me something so that can't be all bad.
Isola inferred that a bad book was one such as Amanda Gillyflower's Ill-Used by Moonlight-and I daresay we can imagine what that was all about. The other books mentioned in the text were all genuine books so I googled for Amanda Gillyflower and her opus but didn't find anything...My guess is that it too was a real book - now lost in the mists of time perhaps but known to one or other of our authors....
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Looks like there are a couple of Ill Met by Moonlight -
one by Sarah Hoyt
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/sarah-a-hoyt/ill-met-by-moonlight.htm
and one by Mercedes Lackey and Roberta Gellis
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ill-Met-by-Moonlight/Mercedes-Lackey/e/9780743498906
But as Gumtree you searched and found there is no Amanda Gillyflower
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Yes Barbara - Ill Met by Moonlight is well known -But Miss Gillyflower's title was Ill USED by Candlelight. Hope you find it!
JoanP: It just came to me - I think it was Pascal who said to the effect that 'there is no book so bad that nothing may be learned from it' No doubt you will have the correct quotation (being a French teacher and all )
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JoanP, glad to know we have a little more time. After all, I do owe you the rest of my story. And since it is late even for a night owl like me, I'll post it tomorrow.
Good night
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The most well known work of Rainer Maria Rilke has to be his Duino Elegies - written at Castle Duino, a stony fortress perched on a bluff above the Adriatic, not far from Trieste - here it is - the First Elegy is about an impossible love, loneliness, angels - the poem is long and a painful examination of life. http://www.tonykline.co.uk/PITBR/German/Rilke.htm
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I too will rejoin you in April for the Hedgehog.. Got book in hand this time.
I liked this one. Although I gently remind us that the book was meant to entertain us. A good deal of it about the war was interesting. I was not that impressed with either Elizabeth or Juliet, but enjoyed Isola and Dawsey and to a point, Young Kit. I was disappointed at the end.. Did not like the romance aspect, but could see it coming.
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'there is no book so bad that nothing may be learned from it'
Alas, Gumtree, I have to disagree with Pascal on this one. I have picked up books that were so bad, the only thing one could learn from them is that it's foolish to waste one's time on them. :-\
I hope to join you for "Elegance of the Hedgehog", too, assuming I can get my hands on one!
See you there. Since this is not a leap year, this is the last day of February. :-*
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Good morning, Steph, Babi! Happy to hear that you are both joining us for Hedgehog. Do you know anything about hedgehogs, by the way? Are they ever "elegant"?
I think there are many levels to enjoy a book - entertainment is certainly one of them. And I think this book provided entertainment in different ways, for different tastes. Maybe that's why we all were able to come away with some satisfaction - even if we didn't fully appreciate the ending. ;)
Although the author has stated that the focus did not shift to Isola at the end, I'm hearing that many of us (most of us?) loved Isola - identified with her more so than Juliet - or at least were entertained by her. Did you find yourself wondering about her future on Guernsey? I wanted to know more about that.
Gum - "there is no book so bad but something good may be found in it." I tend to agree with you.
Babi, you have no beef with Pascal, (that I know of) - but rather Cervantes in his Don Quixote. (Maybe when he wrote that, there weren't as many "bad books" printed, given the cost of printing in the 17th century!)
Your mention of Pascal reminded me of Isola scraping off the gold embossed letters from the journal Sidney sent her. - She didn't like the "Pensées" (Thoughts) and so she wrote in "Facts" on the cover of her Detection notes. Do you think she didn't like the French word, or was it simply because she didn't intend to write anything but the facts in her journal?
By the way - my favorite Pascal from his Pensées -
"Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point."
"The heart has its reasons which reason knows not."
I joined your search for Isola's reference to the Gillyflower book
I didn't find much but you can still purchase a copy on ebay - if so inclined. Clearly Isola was tired of these books written for young girls back in the 1900's. Here's the
Gilly Flower book cover (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/RareBookCellar/PICS%2012/Gilly.jpg) - notice that the author's name is not on the cover. It was often erroneously attributed to Evelyn Whitaker - but on the book cover you can read - "author of Honor Bright" - sometimes it says "author of Mrs. Toosey's Mansion." Apparently there were a whole series of them.
Barbara, thank you for the Rilke - I spend some time on it earlier - and found it depressing. Maybe I need to wait until I'm fully awake to appreciate him. He was certainly prolific on the subject of Guardian Angels - and the afterlife. Thank you. This will be required reading for Prague.
Maryz - thank you for your encouraging words - Bruce thinks that because I like to learn languages, I can sit down with a book and learn Czech, just like that! Instead I will brush up on the German.
Traudee - we're not going anywhere until we hear the rest of your story - even if it isn't leap year! ;)
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Good morning everyone (actually almost afternoon). I think I’ve lost a day worrying about hooking up with broadband, but it went like a breeze. and what a difference. No more getting cut off in the middle of posting, and getting to your links is so much easier.
It is such a joy to read your posts.
Did anyone consider that Elizabeth may have been Dawsey's first love (unrequited).
from Gum
Yes, Gum, I definitely thought so at first, but then when Christian came along I thought Dawsey would have just shrugged his shoulders and thought, “so be it.” And he would never give any indication, just continue to be a good friend.
The discussion here about your feelings on author input, author purposes, etc is fascinating. And a very interesting parallel with the garden, Barbara. I have mixed feelings. I first read this book before Christmas and enjoyed it immensely. But I enjoyed it even more rereading it here. And that’s mainly because of this discussion and all of you. I think I was a lazy reader the first time round. But goaded, not by a rock, but by you all, it was very satisfying to learn more about the authors who were part of the book, as well as learning about what drove Barrows and Shaffer.
My f2f group is reading it in June, after the paperback comes out, and I’m really excited about sharing many of your comments with the DL, who has already read it, so no spoilers. She doesn’t have Internet, so I’ll have to hogtie her somehow before the group meeets.. This will be archived, will it not? And we’ll never be able to confine this discussion to just an hour or so. We’ll be in our newly renoavated library then, so I’m thinking we should make it a luncheon meeting. Joan’s PPPie? Naw. This is bar-b-q land here. We’ll have roast pig. ;D
And did we all go looking for Ms. Gillyflower and her book? ha ha. Ill Met by Midnight appears to be pretty popular and did you notice that there was an Elizabeth in there? :D
"There is no such thing as a good book. A book is good only when it meets some human hunger or refutes some human error. A book that is good for me would very likely be punk for you....There is no one so grateful as the man to whom you have just given the book his soul needed and he never knew it."
Jude, a wonderful quote.
And I like Isola’s “Reading good books spoils you for bad books.” Remember the Queen in Uncommon Reader. The more she read, the more she found how much easier it was to read the books.
Did we gravitate towards the characters in the book who shared our literary tastes?
JoanP
I don’t think so. Other than Isola, I didn’t really have a “favorite” character, but I really liked Dawsey. He was special, but I’ve read little of Charles Lamb.
I missed the Rilke reference. Will have to look.
Did you find yourself wondering about her future on Guernsey? I wanted to know more about that.
joanp asks
Does anyone have an Epilogue?
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Traude
You mentioned that you published your story on the WREX site. I also had a story published there. Do you know what happened to that site? I would like to continue to send in other stories I have written.What about you?
JoanP
In answer to your question (Or Isola's statement) "Do good books ruin you for bad ones.? In my case DEFINITELY !
I'm sure that everyone's definition of what a good book or a bad book is different.
However I feel that there are books for every mood. So , after reading many books of many genres I found out that sometimes I like a serious or a classic novel. At other times (Especially on planes, trains or boats) I need what I call my escape novels which teach me nothing at all, do not make me think or contemplate and whisk me away to some thrilling, mysterious plot that I know will end in "the bad guy" down and the Hero waiting around for his or her next adventure. But the flight is over, the time has passed and I can leave the book on the plane for the next traveler.
I read very fast and consume many books. My friends call me the "Bookie Monster".
I also read non fiction and in that category there are bad books, good books and great books. But again each person has their personal taste, needs and curiosities. Notions which may change over time.
I have written a lot and I hope within the verbiage you find a cogent answer to your question.
Hope to meet up again.
Jude
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I haven't posted a lot here, partly because it's been such a lively discussion that every thing was said, but I've been reading along, and have been amazed at all the good ideas.
JoanP and Pedlin, thanks for making the discussion such a good one. SeniorLearn is certainly getting off to a roaring start.
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You are ALL so very welcome - it was really our joy to hear from so many of you. It is your voices and observations that made this such an exciting discussion, just as the different letter writers made the Guernsey story come alive.
Pedln, I think the potato peel pie would make a great side dish to the roast pig for your f2f meeting in June - as long as you don't listen to Gum's advice and cut down on the sour cream, (lots of sour cream) - or substitute bird seed for flour! :D
Though I loved Isola - it was really Juliet who got my attention at the end. The reasons are personal, but she made me look back at choices I made at her age - or failed to make. I missed the carpe diem - the seizing of the day...and in hindsight, I missed out on something really important that could have changed my life. I needed a catalyst back then, I needed an Isola to open my eyes.
Jude (Bookie Monster) - you are always "cogent"! It was a pleasure to have you join us. Whenever I see a discarded paperback in an airport, I will think of you!
We are looking forward to hearing from you - and PatH in April when we delve into the delights of Muriel Barbery's Elegance of the Hedgehog. THat looks like a great discussion starting out this morning in the Team of Rivals, Pat. I'm waiting for my library copy to rise to the top of the hold list - but that's a long book and the list is long.
Happy Sunday, wherever you are! - We are all about ice and snow here in the DC area - to the grandsons' delight.
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Thank you, Joan and Pedln for a wonderful discussion and thanks, too, to all those who left such interesting and thoughtful posts that I, so busy reading and absorbing them, completely failed to post much myself! There were so many leads to other works and so many good analyses that I just sat back in admiration. I believe that I have learned something about the close reading of a text and expect to get more now out of any book that I choose to read with any amount of attention. Thank you everyone!
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On hedgehogs, Yes there is a pygmy hedgehog that is simply elegant..Tiny and bristled and then tiny eyes peeping at you..
I loved being back into the discussions. Such fun and such different thoughts.. See you all in April
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JOANP, so glad to hear Pascal is not responsible for that quote. Gumtree thought it might be him, but now we can both blame it on Cervantes.
Juliet is my favorite character, too. All the way through, it is her interest in, and appreciation of, the people around her that brings them alive to us. Falling in love with Kit was so natural, and so life-defining. And having the good sense and character to value a Dawsey over a Mark really sold me.
Thank you for a lovely time...
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I believe that I have learned something about the close reading of a text and expect to get more now out of any book that I choose to read with any amount of attention.
from
JoanR
Beautifully said, JoanR, and you have expressed my feelings as well. But can I do it alone? Not sure.
Just for fun, (and because it makes swimming laps more interesting) I’ve composed a little epilogue here. Please feel free to pick up any pieces and add on.
It is now 1976. Yes, best friends forever, Eli and Kit were married when she finished university, and now have three children – Lizzie, Charles Daws, and Solly. Eben has helped Eli get started and he now has a thriving charter-fishing business, and they both manage Ambrose House, which has become a thriving year-round small hotel, with many repeat guests, especially families. Their favorite guests are the Dominic Strachens who come from Scotland every year with their children. Kit combines being an entrepreneur along with illustrating and writing children’s stories about the natural life on Guernsey. Family getogethers are never complete until the grandfathers read tales from Mary and Charles Lamb. The children also love to hear the tale of the hidden pig and how the GLAPPPS came into being. Kit is secretary this year and Solly claims when she grows up she’ll be sergeant at arms.
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Sorry to be late. I had my grandson (12) here for the weekend - a rare pleasure; he just left.
The kitchen at least is clean, but the fridge needs an overhaul. And I am worn out. Thank goodness I'll have help tomorrow morning, so please don't give up on me! Thank you.
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Pedlin,
Loved your epilogue. What a wonderful end to a beautiful story.
P.S. I swim laps too. :D
Evelyn
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I swim laps too, and enjoy the way my thoughts wander while I do it. Deems and I have swum at the same YMCA for many, many years, and have never once run into each other there.
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pedln, the epilogue -what a lovely idea! Some books do engage us in a special way and resonate with us longer.
This made me think - in broad terms only, mind you - of Alice Randall and her book "The Wind Done Gone", a parody of GWTW, told by a half-sister of Scarlet. The estate of Margaret Mitchell sued but the case was settled and the book published. I've always wanted to read it but never did. So many book, so little time!
Barbara, I learned how important symbols are when I read "The Dead", the last of the stories in James Joyce's
"The Dubliners".
JocanP, 'humor' really wasn't the right word, nor was 'levity'. But what I meant to express IS in the GLPPPS.
Without a certain lightheartedness, life would be unbearable - and literature mirrors that.
It is quite possible that Dawsey held a torch for Elizabeth, as Gumtree indicated. He was her treasured friend -- and present when Kit was born(!)
My introduction to Kafka was the novella "Die Verwandlung" (the Metamorphosis), and I was devastated - because of the sadness and the autobiograpical aspects of it.
The most chilling for me to read was "The Trial", perhaps Kafka never finished it. He suffered from TB and entrusted the manuscript to his friend Max Brod with instructions to dispose of it. Intead, after Kafka's death Max Brod went ahead and published the book with the title "Das Urteil", and successively all of Kafka's work. Kafka wrote in German.
Joan, not o worry. English is widely spoken and understood in eastern Europe. Scores of Americans have settled in Prague, which is also known as "the golden city". It was the capital of the Kingdom of Bohemia and the center of political and cultural life. It belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which ended in 1918. An immense areal which included also parts of what became the former Yugoslavia, e.g. Croatia and Istria. Yugoslavia is no more. Czechoslovia is no more.
That arbitrary construct in 1919 was an ill-considered union: the people didn't even speak the same language! After WW II, Czechoslovakia was under Russian domination like all of eastern Europe. In the aftermath of the breakup of the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia was separated into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
Five or six years ago, our AAUW branch had a guest speaker at one of the general meetings, a young Czech girl and exchange student from Prague, who lived with an American host family in our fair town. Her English was superb. We quizzed her about all kinds of things, and it struck me how much she looked and behaved like one of our own sixteen or seventeen-year old girls.
Life goes on.
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Wll be back instantly
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Here I am. Back with the story.
It was widely believed that Heidelberg would be "spared", and it was. US Headquarters were housed there after the war. By the end of 1944 my work there was done, finals over and my thesis accepted. The cell decided to suspend meetings because some of us were shadowed. I was one of them. I packed up what I had and boarded the train to join my parents.
After the bombing in Mannheim they had been resettled in the village where my father was born. In two rooms, one of which was the kitchen, no toilet. My father was getting worse, the doctor from the neighboring village now came twice a week to give him his injection. My mother held it together - with great difficulty and her famous 'iron will'.
She reproached me for not writing, but I assured her I had. (I suspected at once that my mail had been held for inspection.)
An ardent admirer of Hitler, she angrily confronted me in the middle of the kitchen and said, "I don't know what you have been doing there in Heidelberg, you never tell me anything. Whatever it is, you better change your ways or I'll tell the Gestapo on you..." ! I can't remember what I answered.
It was December. I don't remember Christmas. I do remember an official-looking letter from a party agency in Munich that ordered me to report there on the second Monday in January 1945 for an unspecified position. I was convinced it was a ruse and decided on flight. All the borders were closed, except the one with Italy. I had a valid passport and a avisa for Italy in it. I told my parents only what was absolutely necessary. My mother packed a suitcase in total silence.
The train station was about two kilometers away. In the night before I was to leave it snowed and kept snowing. We loaded my suitcase on a borrowed wheelbarrow and pulled it through the snow. Train schedules were no longer reliable. British spitfires were known to make random attacks to decommission the locomotives of trains in rural areas; long delays were the result. It would have been unnecessarily painful for my mother to wait with me. Our parting was strained.
This was farming country and one of those slow trains that stop at every milk can took me to the city. There I caught a night train, an express for Italy via Munich, Innsbruck, to the Brenner border, Verona and beyond. Passport control was uneventful. A new engine was put on the train at the border, the German personnel got off, Italian personnel came on. I was the only person in the compartment. The curtains were closed, the light dim.
After more than two and a half years, in September 1947, I got on an express train in the opposite direction with a new passport issued in Rome courtesy of the International Red Cross (I'll be eternally grateful to them), duly equipped with all the necessary stamps the Italians require. The train was overcrowded - standing room only.
I don't know how our resistance cell ranked numerically. Later, and after the fact, the world learned that a similar cell had existed in Munich, known as the "The White Rose", mentored by a professor at the university of Munich. Members Sophie Scholl, her brother Hans and two other students were caught in 1943, for distributing leaflets with anti-war messages, and executed after a short trial. Nothing whatsoever was published in the press at the time.
Three German movies have been made about the group, and a monument was built in the grop's honor of them. Google has the information.
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Traudee, thank you for sharing your story with us. It was certainly worth the wait. You bring us a view from the inside of what life was like in Germany during the war. Life went on - as it did on Guernsey.
By the end of 1944 my work there was done, finals over and my thesis accepted.
Heidelburg was spared - you went on with your classes - as usual. Except for your student activism, which could have cost you your life! What did you do, exactly? I imagine you handing out anti-war leaflets. How were they received by the Heidelbergers? Was there much anti-war sentiment brewing in Heidelberg? Did your student group actually believe that Hitler could be stopped?
Meanwhile, your mother, who had survived the Mannheim bombing remained "an ardent admirer of Hitler" - even threated to turn you in to the Gestapo. Do you really think she would have - or was she frightened for you and trying to protect you? How many German citizens remained Hitler's admirers to the end. I can't imagine what a strain this was between you and your mother. Did you have any siblings in Mannheim who stayed with her?
What were things like when you returned in 1947?
Traudee, we could do a whole discussion on your wartime experience! Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.
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PatH, I knew that y ou and Maryal swam in the same place, but I was thinking it was the Montgomery County swim facility in Bethesda where I have gone several times with my DIL. I won’t look for you there anymore.
Traude, thank you for sharing what must be a very difficult memory. I think about you being so young, traveling all alone, and in such a precarious position, wondering if you were being sought by authorities. You were very brave.
We quizzed her about all kinds of things, and it struck me how much she looked and behaved like one of our own sixteen or seventeen-year old girls.
from traude
Years ago, when TV was new, it was deemed an equalizer, for whether y ou lived in a big city or very small hamlet, it gave you some idea of what was going on in the rest of the country. [along with Seventeen magazine] Now, of course, modern technology, with a few exceptions, has brought the world to everyone’s doorstep.
Again, thank you everyone for making this discussion the success it was.
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Wonderful discussion, and thank you Traude for your story!
Just as an aside, I obtained from Netflix, the 3 discs entitled "The Islands at War". This was a very well-done movie, and having just read GLPPPS, I kept looking for characters or situations from that, knowing full well it was a totally different thing, but funny how the mind works sometime, isn't it? (There are two episodes on each of the three discs).
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JoanP and pedln, it was difficult to write about the past and harder still to allude here, in a a public forum, to the difficult relationship I had with my mother. I felt it was important in the context and did not intend to speak ill of the dead. De mortuis nil nisi bonum.
Thank you and all participants for an exceptional, sensitive discussion.
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Traude, we are grateful to you for sharing your story. Reliving those years must be difficult for you. We can't even begin to imagine the repercussions throughout your life. My thoughts go back to the book and the underlying theme. Somehow you coped and life goes on.
Tomereader - I remember watching Islands at War so closely, looking for glimpses of Guernsey, only to learn that it was filled on the Isle of Man. Close enough. I did wonder at the time why they filmed there rather than Guernsey, though. I'm smiling thinking of you looking for situations - or characters that might resemble those we came to know.
One of my sons was a competitive swimmer. I asked him a number of times what he thought about as he practiced all those laps. He said he did his best thinking then - not deliberately, but that thoughts and solutions just came to him as he swam back and forth.
I'm waiting for the rest of the Epilogue, Pedln - can't wait to find learn what became of Isola in those years between 1946 and 1976...I'll bet she never married but wrote several novels, romance and mysteries.
Thanks to all of you for making this such a rich rewarding experience. We also thank Annie Barrows for finishing the book which her aunt started and for her generous response to our questions. And of course, we need to thank Mary Ann Shaffer for bringing us The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society in the first place.
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Funny, both of our sons swam for swim teams for years.. Now our eldest is a triathlete, even at 48..I do remember asking them how they handled the long hours in the pools and they both agreed it was a great place to work out problems.
I walk every morning very early.. about 5 or 5:30 am.. I do it for health, but have discovered over the years, that it clears my head and makes me face a day easier. When we are traveling and I cannot walk, I am cranky all day..
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Steph, I have great admiration for your discipline! Did you learn this from your son? My swimmer is 38 - still does Masters Swimming. I'm afraid his regime did not rub off on me.
Our SL swimmers have dried off and left the pool. I guess we will have to write our own epilogues to Isola's story in the years following Juliet and Dawsey's wedding. You can bet she continued to play a big part in their lives. Maybe she reopened Mr. Fox's books store!
This discussion will take up residence in our Archives for those of you who plan to discuss it in your f2f discussions. There is so much good information in all of your posts.
Also, here is the final version of Annie Barrow's "interview" - wasn't she wonderful and forthcoming! Thanks Annie! And special thanks to all of YOU!
Annie Barrows Responds to SeniorLearn Readers (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/guernsey/quest&answers.htm)