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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
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Welcome to a new discussion area at SeniorLearn. As stated in the header, this is the place to discuss the place of women in our society.
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X marking my spot.
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Iwill be back. must run, just now.
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This sounds interesting.
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Another new discussion - just things to keep our brains working! ::)
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Wow! Another new discussion. Following the plight of women, it seems that throughout history women have always had to struggle to achieve rights that should be SELF-EVIDENT without having to fight for them.
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It does, indeed, seem to me to be that way, dean...and it raises my blood pressure to think about it. >:(
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The author of Running with Wolves has another book hitting the shelves
http://www.clarissapinkolaestes.com/
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Hi MaryZ and All, this is an interesting issue to discuss. Now that I'm older Women's issues are more important to me. I think in each decade and century women have made their voices louder. I don't know if our needs aren't met or whether it's because with new knowledge, new ways of running the world with technological goodies new problems are forced upon us. It seems we, as women, and men who love women can never sit down and relax. If we did, then there is the easy chance that our gains might become our losses. Women, I think, have to be risk takers.
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Dean69, I understand and like the way you have put your thoughts. "...had to struggle to achieve rights that should be SELF-EVIDENT..." I never thought of it all in that way. Like Jane, it does raise my blood pressure.
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Hi Hats! Nice to know you're still hanging around.
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Yep, I'm still here. Thanks for caring.
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Hats, I am so glad to see you. You add to any discussion and I missed that.
I find womens issues more and more to the forefront, since muslims seem to have a very strange idea of property, which seems to include women..and the idea that there are areas in the world ( Saudi Arabia) where they cannot legally drive or even walk without an escort. How sad and short sighted. I listened to an audio book..The Girls of Riadh, last year and it presented four Arabic young women through some years and marriage or not marriage. It was funny, but also sad. It was also banned in Saudi and some other arabic countries.
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Marking.
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I have been thinking of how womens rights and duties have changed so drastically.When I married in the late 50's, all of the magazines and how to books talked of changing into something nice each evening before hubby returned home.. never bothering him with household items right away..went on and on.. Since we both worked, am not sure I ever did some of the things, but I do remember vividly somebody writing a book that included.. wrapping yourself in saran wrap and greeting him at the door to spice up the mariage. Not something I would have done, but I do remember ernest discussions with friends on some such nonsense. We have changed enormously over the years.
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This sounds like a good discussion.
My college adviser back in 1969 told me that if I wasn't going to teach (I dropped education courses and went for a straight BS) that I'd better learn to type and take shorthand, because if women weren't teachers or nurses, they were secretaries.
My first real long-term full time job ended when we moved - the personnel director had me take my money out of the retirement fund because there was no point in leaving it in since I'd just have kids and never go back to work anyway.
(after 5 years of work as a legal secretary, with a BS)
I did take 5 years off with my kids, but other than that, I've been working.
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I was taking a geology lab course taught by a grad student in 1956. He asked me why I bothered as I would only be a secretary for an oil company. Hope this poor soul wound up working for one of us "girls."
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I graduated from high school in 1961 and promptly started college. It seemed the only fields open to women were education, nursing or secretarial. My sophomore year, I had a suite mate who was studying to be a lawyer. We thought she was very daring and a little "odd". Ah, if I only knew then what I know now......
Sally
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Iwas fortunate in college to be surrounded by friends who were mostly serious about their lives. Now one if a chemist,, another a psychiatrist, two teachers, one college professor, all mostly retired of course.. We had one red head who simply wanted a husband and he had better be rich.. She has been married three times and they were all rich.. Moo is a character.
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Women were often portrayed in the past in stereotypical fashion ie; very too emotional in
behavior and decisions and dependent on a man for financial support .
How times have changed ? But not completely.
Today women are represented in key leadership positions across the spectrum of
society .
However , they are often disrespected in consumer services by both professionals and business persons.
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marking
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A few years ago I read a biography on Belva Ann Lockwood by Jill Norgren. Lockwood was the first woman to practice law before the U. S. Supreme Court, but the hoops she had to jump through to achieve that honor would have defeated a less determined person. Born in 1830, she had to overcome objections at every effort to obtain an education. When she applied for admission to law school, she was denied on the basis that she would be a distraction to the young men. However, she was told that an exception could be made for a lady if she was on the shady side of forty, rawboned and wore spectacles. She met none of those exceptions. She did eventually earn a law degree, and besides becoming the first woman to practice law before the Supreme Court also ran for president twice in 1884 and 1888.
Today, there are women in all the professions formerly open only to men including the practice of law. Three of the current Supreme Court justices are women. I am of the opinion that there should be more. Yes, Baby, we have come a long way, but every move forward has been met with a roadblock. Why?
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It was still hard to become an attorney in the 50's.. I remember some of the roadblocks for a friend. She practices in a small family practice, so that worked, but could not even get an interview with the huge firms.. She was law review..
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Marking.....great idea.
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OK here we go - courageous women in history...
Louis IX. of France was captured by the Turks at the battle of Mansoora, during the Seventh Crusade, and his wife Marguerite, with a babe at the breast, was in Damietta, many miles away. The Infidels surrounded the city, and pressed the garrison so hard that it was decided to capitulate. The queen summoned the knights, and told them that she at least would die in armor upon the ramparts before the enemy should become masters of Damietta.
"Before her words they thrilled like leaves
When winds are in the wood;
And a deepening murmur told of men
Roused to a loftier mood."
Grasping lance and shield, they vowed to defend their queen and the cross to the last.
Damietta was saved.
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Charles V. of Spain passed through Thuringia in 1547, on his return to Swabia after the battle of Muehlburg. He wrote to Catherine, Countess Dowager of Schwartzburg, promising that her subjects should not be molested in their persons or property if they would supply the Spanish soldiers with provisions at a reasonable price.
On approaching Eudolstadt, General Alva and Prince Henry of Brunswick, with his sons, invited themselves, by a messenger sent forward, to breakfast with the Countess, who had no choice but to ratify so delicate a request from the commander of an army. Just as the guests were seated at a generous repast, the Countess was called from the hall and told that the Spaniards were using violence and driving away the cattle of the peasants.
Quietly arming all her retinue, she bolted and barred all the gates and doors of the castle, and returned to the banquet to complain of the breach of faith. General Alva told her that such was the custom of
war, adding that such trifling disorders were not to be heeded. "That we shall presently see," said Catharine; "my poor subjects must have their own again, or, as God lives, prince's blood for oxen's blood!"
The doors were opened, and armed men took the places of the waiters behind the chairs of the guests. Henry changed color; then, as the best way out of a bad scrape, laughed loudly, and ended by praising the
splendid acting of his hostess, and promising that Alva should order the cattle restored at once. Not until a courier returned, saying that the order had been obeyed, and all damages settled satisfactorily, did the armed waiters leave.
The Countess then thanked her guests for the honor they had done her castle, and they retired with protestations of their distinguished consideration.
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In his book, Orison Swett Marden gives us this story:
One of the last official acts of the late President Carnot, of France, was the sending of a medal of the French Legion of Honor to a little American girl, who lives in Indiana.
While a train on the Pan Handle Railroad, having on board several distinguished Frenchmen, was bound to
Chicago and the World's Fair, Jennie Carey, who was then ten years old, discovered that a trestle was on fire, and that if the train, which was nearly due, entered it a dreadful wreck would take place. Thereupon
she ran out upon the track to a place where she could be seen from some little distance. Then she took off her red flannel skirt and, when the train came in view, waved it back and forth across the track. It was
seen, and the train stopped.
On board of it were seven hundred people, many of whom must have suffered death but for Jennie's courage and presence of mind. When they returned to France, the Frenchmen brought the occurrence to the notice of President Carnot, and the result was the sending of the medal of this famous French society, the purpose of which is the honoring of bravery and merit, wherever they may be found.
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The Medal of Honor - the nation's highest award. The only female recipient.
Dr Mary Walker, a surgeon in the Civil War, was awarded the nation's highest honor by President Andrew Johnson. The citation reads, in part:
"Whereas it appears from official reports that Dr. Mary E. Walker, a graduate of medicine, has rendered valuable service to the government, and her efforts have been earnest and untiring in a variety of ways, and that she was assigned to duty and served as an assistant surgeon in charge of female prisoners at Louisville, KY., under the recommendation of Major-Generals Sherman and Thomas, and faithfully served as contract surgeon in the service of the United states, and has devoted herself with much patriotic zeal to the sick and wounded soldiers, both in the field and hospitals, to the detriment of her own health, and has endured hardships as a prisoner of war four months in a southern prison while acting as contract surgeon...."
Dr. Walker's Medal of Honor was rescinded in 1917, along with some 900 others. Some believed her medal was rescinded because of her involvement as a suffragette. Others discredit that opinion as 909 other medals rescinded were awarded to men. The stated reason was to ". . . increase the prestige of the grant."
For whatever reason, she refused to return the Medal of Honor and wore it until her death in 1919. Fifty-eight years later, the U.S. Congress posthumously reinstated her medal, and it was restored by President Carter on June 10, 1977.
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In May 2012, Colonel Jeannie Flynn Leavitt became the first female commander of a combat fighter wing in the United States Air Force. She now commands the 4th Fighter Wing at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in Goldsboro, North Carolina. With more than 5,000 airmen and civilians, the 4th Fighter Wing is one of the Air Force’s largest fighter wing forces.
Leavitt joined the Air Force in 1992 after she earned a bachelor’s degree in aerospace engineering and a master’s degree in aeronautics and astronautics. During that time, some people in the military thought that women should not be allowed to become fighter pilots. In 1993, however, then Secretary of Defense Lee Aspin ordered that the military must allow women to fly in combat. Later that year, Leavitt became the first woman fighter pilot in the U.S. Air Force. She soon inspired other women pilots to train for combat flight. Today, the Air Force has 700 female pilots. Sixty of them fly in combat.
Before Colonel Leavitt became commander of the entire 4th Fighter Wing, she commanded the 333rd Fighter Squadron at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base. When she served in Afghanistan, she was deputy commander of the 455th Operations Group at Bagram Air Base. Throughout her career, Leavitt has logged more than 2,700 flight hours. Three hundred of those hours were in combat missions over Iraq and Afghanistan.
Now Colonel Leavitt trains others for combat flight. Flying in her F-15E Strike Eagle, she leads mock bombing raids in the sky above North Carolina. She believes that if someone wants to become a fighter pilot, his or her background does not matter. What matters is how well he or she performs.
P.S. Jeannie is my best friend's niece and Godchild - In October, Jeannie, her husband and two young boys spent time visiting Charlotte while they were here in Austin for a weekend that included watching a UT football game and driving to San Antonio so the boys could visit the Alamo.
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Marking..Women have always been brave,, just not blustery. so men never notice.
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Steph, that's so true. I worked for the Dept of Army for 13 yrs and the battles between the male egos were so useless, often a waste of time and dollars and unproductive. It was in the 80s and 90s and there were just beginning to be a couple of young women officers on the installation who were in "regular" military roles. They were so much better at people managing and more efficient then their male counterparts, in the main. I enjoyed working with all of them.
Some of the non-com men that i worked with mentioned that the best company officers they had had were women and one mentioned that the best helicopter training officer he had was a woman who wasn't allowed to fly in combat missions.
Of course, military and civilian women have often been in the midst of combat. There are thousands of those stories. ....... Jean
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Altho March is Women's History Month, December has a glorious history of women. Check out the women's history calendar from the Women's History Project.
http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php
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Wow! As an ex- mathematician, I loved seeing women mathematicians in the group. needless to say, I was the only woman in my class.
And of course, I'm named for another extraordinary woman, Joan of Arc!
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Fabulous site Jean - thanks...! I am making a request it goes in the heading.
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Dear Jean. Thanks much for the url to the National Women's History Project. I just spent almost an hour reading from that site. Very interesting! I have added their sites to my fcavorites list.
I
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I am appaled by the realizatio of how little women's contributions were taught during my first 12 years of education. I am also appaled by the realiza tion of how little I was taught, and I did not realize! The only two women's names I remember hearing, or reading about were Martha Washington and Clara Barton. Sad!
Sheila
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I added the womans history project to my favorites and plan on reading it all later today.. Early morning is walk time and I have two small eager heads watching me steadily for when I rise from the machine and we all go outside..OH JOY.
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I feel I have to take off all of my clothes, as it were, and bare my soul.
For I have suffered mightily all of my life because I was born female. I do not mean that the soul of a man is in my head and body. Not so. I am WOMAN!
But my father did not want me once he heard I was a girl. No point in burdening you with the rest of that story, but needless to say it scarred me for life and, with me now the oldest member of my entire clan, it hurts still. He is dead, but retains the power to hurt me.
And boss after boss in my working life treated me just as Clarence Thomas treated Doctor Anita Hill. I, too, had to refuse them and infuriate them and mortify them and try to remain friends in order to support my children. The Men's Club of this world stand together and refuse to believe any woman, though they themselves have often copied this reprehensible behavior.
My main passion in the nearly 84 years of my life has been the discrimination against my sex. My gender. Only a few centuries ago we were legally the property of our fathers or husbands. Lacking these, we could be owned by uncles or brothers. Any property we inherited became our husband's to do with as he chose. We could not vote in this country until 1920. When we married in the Christian religion, the priest or pastor asked: "Who giveth this woman?" You see, legally we really were property to be passed from the one man to the other!
When we look at the Muslims, and goodness knows I deplore their treatment of women, but hey: we have been just as guilty. My first husband, right in my lifetime, saw no reason why we should waste money sending our girls to college! I swear!
Yes, there is a rage in me. A blazing hot rage.
My 5 daughters include 2 teachers, a nurse, a bookkeeper/artist, and a veterinarian.
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I posted some of this in "fiction" but it goes here too.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Air
I got Sinclair Lewis' Free Air, an ebook, for free, from Amazon a week or so ago. If the whole book is as good as the first chapter, i'm in for a treat. Lewis writes great women protagonists. I was amazed when i read Main Street how he got into the head of the woman character in the 1920s. Both books have very strong and independent women.
In this book, a well-heeled, well brought up young woman is driving her father ( the book was published in 1919 so i assume it was supposed to be contemporary) on muddy, sometimes totally missing roads, from Minnesota to Seattle Washington. Getting to drive a car gave women, at the time, a sense of power and strength and it's clear that Clara is proud of herself even though she sometimes needs to be literally pulled out of the ruts.it turns out that it is supposed to be 1916. I also read somewhere recently how the bicycle gave women a sense of freedom and independence and power bcs it allowed them to go "on their own". Oh i know it was in Clara and Mr Tiffany. It is surprising in this day and age to think how important the bike and then the car could be to a woman's emotional feelings and her self confidence.
I put up the Wiki statement about the book at the beginning of the post.
Is there any benefit to Seniorlearn if we go to Amazon thru this site even for free books?
Jean
Just checked, it's now $ .99 for the ebook
MaryPage - i recently saw a list of the best and worse countries for women to live in. One of the comments about Indonesia was that 90% of women their said they had been the victim of sexual harassment! I thought"Huuuum, i'll bet if the term was explained and the question was asked correctly that 90% of women in the U.S. could say the same. Is their any of us who have not had to put up w/ negative comments about women, or had to figure out how to handle a leach in the workplace. If we told someone else the answer was generally "oh that's just Bob, ignore it," as if "men will be men and women just have to put up w/ them"
I'm so sorry that your father was so unappreciative of you, he certainly missed out on knowing an intelligent, interesting girl and woman.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I was only 13 when my father died, but I do know about his attitudes. My sister was 6 years older. One of her friends in highschool and college wanted to be a doctor. Since my father was a doctor, she asked him for advice. He told her that she should go for it. That she might not be big enough, or smart enough, to do something, but just because she sat down to pee shouldn't keep her from doing anything she wanted to do. I was lucky. And this woman went on to have a long productive life/career as an ENT doctor.
And John's the same way - and basically told our four daughters the same thing.
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Yes, I was lucky with both father and husband.. Both encouraged me to be the best I could be. Do the things I considered important and look the world in the eye.. I had discrimination in the work place off and on, but not all the time. I am sorry Mary Page.. You have accomplished much. Be proud and strong.
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Thank you, Steph.
The rage remains in every fiber of my being. It is such a relief on the rare occasions when I see young women on TV speaking passionately about women's rights. Of course, they are so courageous, because the loud, barking chauvinists immediately name them in huge voices and make sure their names reverberate from every mountainside and from sea to shining sea, along with such names as slut, whore, prostitute, sex-crazy female, man-hater, and so on. It is such a sickness.
But from my perch on top of nearly 84 years, I have seen men from every ethnic, religious, racial and economic background join forces to try to stomp upon the teeniest sliver of notion that women should have equality. And while I was one of those who worked so hard and tirelessly to get the ERA passed, it did not happen. Why not?
I'll tell you quite simply and truthfully why not. Because we never became united as one multitude of women with one mind set about our equal value as human beings. Too many of our dear demented sisters listened to the words of their fathers, brothers, bosses, politicians and pastors and caved to the belief that women are not meant to aspire to the wonderful perfections of men; we just cannot get there and we should admit this and and bow to our betters. It is just not womanly to do otherwise!
The Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution of These United States, known as the ERA, was said to be so very dangerous for our nation.
Here it is in its entirety:
Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.
Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.
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MaryPage, John always said that any woman who was opposed to the ERA was like a black who was against the Emancipation Proclamation.
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Problem - The many "dear demented sisters" who "listened to the words of their fathers, brothers, bosses, politicians and pastors and caved" have to live with and are dependent upon those "fathers, brothers, bosses, politicians and pastors" - they have a family to raise and as difficult as it is now they can only see more hardship - plus let's face it most of those who were nationally championing the cause did not have an appearance many women emulated - they grew up believing it was only laziness that keeps you from looking your most attractive.
In the 1970s Marshall McLuhan wrote the classic, The Medium is the Massage saying, "societies have always been shaped more by the nature of the media by which men communicate than by the content of the communication." May not seem like the stuff worthy of sending down in flames a Constitutional Amendment but it is the kind of thinking that gets president's elected.
No one likes loosing especially a major bit of Justice but we could learn our lesson and adapt a more successful approach - I do think folks like Oprah are doing their best to help women look at their choices but we have lots of women in the upper middle class that will loose with their marriage their station in society - no small matter - I made the choice and where we were not among the real wealth I lost tons including who wanted me to associate with their brokerage - so I lost my job.
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In the ancient Greek play Lysistrata by Aristophanes, Lysistrata gets ALL of the women of Greece to agree to withhold sex from their husbands until the men come to an agreement and end the Peloponnesian War. Even the old women take part in the action and the strike.
By holding together, the women win.
I believe if ALL the women of our nation acted as one, there would be no marriages destroyed because of the ERA passing. I mean, the whole point is, when they have NO WHERE ELSE TO GO, the men will give up because they cannot do without the sex they so crave, and then turn around and tell us we are from Satan and have seduced them and sex is evil and we, not they, are to be punished.
But then, I dream, I dream. Women will never stop being hypnotized by men. Aristophanes was a dreamer, as well. I like his style!
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ah yes MaryPage dream because you need to take into consideration the abusive spouse and the women who believe that is all they deserve or the women who have no one to help them out or the women who cannot afford on her own to take care of the children and especially the women whose female family members blame her and take sides with the men - lots of folks who would be hurt - just go to a battered women's shelter to help out and your eyes are opened to how this is not a small or simple problem affecting only a very few nor is it a problem that just affects low income. You will find many a minsters wife among the group and many a women whose husband make six figures and even some women who make six figures themselves. As long as we think they have a choice and it could not happen to us then we are not as close as we need to be to bring around the law that will bring greater justice for all women.
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I have never understood why women prostitutes are arrested, jailed & fined; and their male customers go free without even a slap on the wrist. I am not condoning prostitution; but it has always seemed a "little" unequal to me!
Sally
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Just think of the women who fought against the ERA.. Phyllis Schafly for one. Oh me, That woman drove me nuts. The nonsense out of her mouth and the number of women who believed it. But there were some republican women in this last election who spouted some pretty awful things . Women are not good about sticking together.
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Don't you find it interesting, though, that 2,500 years ago a famous playwright recognized that it was WOMEN who wanted a war to end and MEN who wanted to have a state of war?
Throughout History, it has often been our creative men who have lit a pathway towards our recognizing the more practical, civilized and prudent truths about our society.
I remember well a once extremely popular American writer: Philip Wylie. He seems forgotten now, but he wrote a novel that was actually the same exact story in two parts: one in which all the women of the world disappear in an instant and what happens as a result and, in the other part, the story begins in the same instant of the same day only all the men disappear.
I cried at the end of the second part. Instead of nuclear holocaust, the female heads of the two superpowers meet in battleships out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and sign a Peace Treaty. It just seemed too beautiful for mere words.
The name of the book was The Disappearance. If you never read it, check out your used books stores; you just never know.
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The fight for an Equal Rights Amendment to the constitution is still going on. A friend of mine is being honored in March (women's history month) in Washington, for her work on it by the Women's History Project (previously mentioned). Here's the blurb about her from their newsletter......
Roberta (“Bobbie”) W. Francis, a nationally recognized leader and strategist for the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA), is a 30+ year advocate and activist for the ERA. Honored for her ERA leadership in 2004 by the Business and Professional Women/ USA and by the Alice Paul Institute in 2008, Bobbie serves as Chair of the ERA Taskforce for the National Council of Women’s Organizations.
She's the second of my friends who has been given an award by the WHP. My very good friend Barbara Irvine who was the volunteer, full-time, president of the Alice Paul Institute for 15 yrs, and organized the National Coalition for the Preservation of Women's History Sites. was honored by them several years ago. Ironically, they are both nicknamed "Bobbie". They are often in the same room and sometimes they and their husbands vacation together, it can get very confusing. :D
Here's a link to the ERA newsletter giving the latest news. As you can see it is still being introduced in Congress.......
http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/
I have been very lucky to have known several women who have been real activists for women's history and women's rights, some on the national level. I recently sat next to Eleanor Smeal for the evening when she was given the Alice Paul Award for Women's Equality. No one has worked harder for women's rights than Ellie and now she has taken up the cause of the Afghan women. It's been an interesting and fun (don't let anyone perpetuate the stereotype that feminists have no sense of humor) life.
Jean
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Thank you, Jean. I have been aware that some have not given up the fight, albeit it seems quite stalled. It is just that MY day is done, as I am now old and ill and unable to assist. I just hate it that it has not happened in MY lifetime.
I realize that is very selfish of me. One day, when all of this generation of old white men are dead, it will be a different story. Today's, my great grandchildren's, generation is much more tolerant and equality minded.
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Write to your senators and Congressperson, MaryPage, especially if they are likely to be in opposition. We can still be a voice.
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" I just hate it that it has not happened in MY lifetime."
No, but a lot has. The glass isn't half full yet, but maybe a third. As a young woman struggling in a man's profession, I know how much those who succeeded had to give up of themselves as women, proving that they could be more macho than the men. I delight in the professional women now, able to be both professional and feminine.
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I found when I was working that sometimes women could be their own worst enemies. Jealous if a woman was promoted to a job previously held by a man. Didn't realize that this would someday be an opening for them.
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Yes, women can sometimes be their own worst enemies. When I was interviewing for a teaching position in Pasadena, TX in 1966; the superintendent asked me if I would mind working for a woman principal. I couldn't imagine what the problem would be and he told me that many women would not work for a woman "boss". In 1985 we were starting a new small business association and were told by the woman helping us organize to elect a man as president because if a woman was president, we would not be taken seriously!
Sally
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Oh Sally, how sad, but sometimes women are their own worst enemies.
Philip Wylie, oh wow, I have not heard his name in years. Yes, I read several things he wrote. A very very cynical man as I recall..Oh me,, I must look him up..
Life has changed so very much since I was a teen. I think that nowadays women are startled if they listen to women of our age.. I remember the abortion fights before Roe..People actually spit on me when we marched.. Almost as bad as Viet Nam, but then that was women as well as men..
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Steph, did you ever march in D.C.? I marched in every Pro-Choice demonstration in Washington, D.C. I have all the buttons to prove it, too!
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Yes, in some businesses attitudes have changed a lot, especially as more women are in corporate decision-making positions. Out dgt is a senior v.p. at Wells Fargo. She has several married women and single women w/ children in her hierarchy. Her time is very flexible and they are all very sympathetic to the needs and time of mothers. When it was a Wachovia Bank, this was also true. I think the merger pushed Wells Fargo into Wachovia's way of thinking. The women appear to be supportive of each other, in general.
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MaryPage,, for abortion rights.. in Delaware... against the war.. Mostly Philadelphia, but twice at the Pentagon.. Quit when I realized that getting arrested would take me away from my sons and my husband traveled for his company, so they needed someone to count on.
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You know, I just hate it when folk insist on concentrating on the foetus and not the life of the mother. Then those very same folk don't give a rap once a child is born. They vote down school meals and Head Start and help for dependent children and all the rest.
I sent an email to the Head of the Faith at the Vatican when that nun was excommunicated in Phoenix a few months ago. Did you read about it? A young woman was 11 weeks pregnant. She had 4 little ones at home and a husband and the whole shebang. She went into that, oh, Senior Moment - - - - - what is it called when your body seizes up and the foetes is quite literally killing you? I think it begins with an E and I know a woman who had that happen years ago. Anyway, they rushed her, dying, to hospital. A Catholic one. And the doctors had a conference and agreed she had to be aborted or die. And they told the nun who headed up the hospital And she agreed and it was done and the woman was sent home to the babies she has. And the Archbishop took away the hospital's credentials as Catholic and excommunicated the nun. The Church felt the woman should die. Go figure.
I love the Faith, but mine has compassion and common sense.
And then there is that young woman in Ireland who just died. Thank God the women in Ireland have had enough of this nonsense that says we women are just vessels to carry the seed of the men! They will, I think, now fight to get things changed.
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I saw on my IPAD that they have killed another woman who is in politics in one of the arab countries.. Pakistan or Afghanistant.. It seems the Taliban is now into being so brave that they send multiple assassins after women.. Amazing.. their own Allah should have a lot of words for them when they die.. I am sure the man did not imagine that his religion would cause this much pain. I read somewhere that he revered women.. These men are simply afraid someone else is better than they are. So sad and horrible for the women.
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I tell you, the instinct in men is that women have no voice. MEN RULE!
The shooting of that little 14 year old proves the whole thing.
All she wanted was that girls could learn to read and write.
So KILL HER!
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Half of the world is women,, I find muslims who are conservative and consider women as second class at most to be extremely unpleasant.. I was reading the other day that China has a real problem in that so many peasants still will get rid of girl babies for the treasured boys and now there are not enough girls to go around. Sigh.. Can you imagine what sort of slant there is to do this??
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All I can think of...and also in India..is DUH! Didn't that enter anybody's head?
Jane
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The irony for me, is that some of those countries have had women leaders for many years, or years ago and the "most progressive country" - US or U.S. - hasn't. Who can explain that?
Jean
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In both India and Pakistan, with Indira Gandhi and Benizir Bhutto, each inherited her father's political position and each was brutally assassinated. A wave of grief and sentiment put each in office (though in each case they were totally competent to hold that office) and the usual hatred of women and refusal to be led by women led to their deaths.
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Bhutto also had husband problems. He was believed to be corrupt and a lot of even her own party did not like him, although I think he is now a prominent politician.
We hang back on the Presidents, but Secretary of State seems to be a lock for women..Odd.
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Have been watching the news all day and feeling sick to death. I can honestly say I have been fighting to help prevent this for years, to no avail. I am all for hunting and we always had shotguns and rifles in our home when I was young (I have given away the ones I inherited and have none at this writing), but I see no use in anyone not in the police or the military having assault rifles. These are only for killing a lot of people AT ONE TIME; they are not for hunting. And I am opposed to gun shows not being required to run background checks. Debi and I went to Washington, D.C. and demonstrated in the huge Million Mom March back in, oh, was it 2004? I remember My Darling Bob was still alive. I've given to the Brady Gun Control outfit and written my congressmen and voted accordingly and the whole nine yards. All to no avail. Sad that our nation has more guns than people. Sad that money rules and innocent little children are shot in their classrooms. I can't think what else I can DO!!!!!!!
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Americans are the only country with these archaic laws that permit all sorts of gun.. I agree that some guns should be permitted, but not these guns made only to kill people..I am sick of the thought of those innocent little ones. I cannot imagine the illness and hate that started this.. Kill yourself, not the innocent ones. We must do a better job diagnosing the dangerous..
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He had 2 hand guns and an automatic rifle that they said on the news tonight was capable of shooting off somewhere between 30 and 100 rounds.
When the Supreme Court came down with their decision on the Heller case in June 2008, it sounded to me from the wording that they were saying it is against the Constitution to enact any laws regulating the use of fire arms in these United States. Ergo, we now have the right to carry concealed weapons into our churches, our hospitals, our schools. We have the right to purchase any type of weapon for sale. Manufacturers may make and put out there guns designed to kill as many people as possible in the shortest time. For some reason, the matter of Homeland Security trumps that, and we cannot carry weapons on airplanes. Me, I think the lives of six year olds should be secure, as well.
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His Mother supplied the guns.. and then he shot her..
I think a disfunctional family indeed.
Six very brave women lost their lives defending the children that they taught.. I am so very proud of them.
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South Korea elects woman president.
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The South Korean woman is the daughter of the long term dictator. Why do most of the Asian countries prefer to elect members of long term political families..
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It has seemed to me for ages now that this is the only way a woman gets her toe in the door in most societies. In Great Britain they have gone out of their way, indeed bent over backwards, to make sure there is a legitimate male to claim the throne before taking a queen. Yet History has shown their Queens to be among their greatest monarchs! Well, they have finally publically admitted to this and passed a law allowing the first born, male OR female, to be the heir apparent. 'Bout time!
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MaryPage...we had a funny discussion just yesterday - speculating on the possibility that Kate and Wills have twins. The heir to the throne would be the first-born, even by a few minutes, right? Think about it - if the first-born is a daughter, followed by the heir spare - a male! :D
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Why are they speculating on twins?? They do not run in the royal family at all.. and yes the first born is the new heir..
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Right after the Duchess went into hospital with dehydration due to all day morning sickness, the tabloids, blogs, and all that public stuff burst forth with speculation that perhaps she is pregnant with twins because, the story went (and I am not an expert on at all), morning sickness is worse when you are having twins.
My doubt is based on a close family member who had twins and almost no nausea whatsoever, but she had a obvious pouch at only 2 months. Kate shows no physical sign of pregnancy; or at least, did not as of the day prior to her going to hospital.
Catch Doonesbury in the Sunday comics if you can. It is just too, too delicious this week.
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I love Doonesbury and love this particular week..What fun he has sometimes. Now I see why the twin stuff. I have a friend who had triplets and still did not have morning sickness, but oh me, she did show early.
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Well, Steph, exactly!
Christmas Eve Gift!
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
home... time for a nap.. see you tomorrow when my brain returns.
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By happenstance, i read these two articles about women in the FBI/CIA. The first one is about the first woman in the FBI when she was 54! (her age was a surprise). Of course, J. Edgar Hoover, no lover of women, fired her when he became Drector. The second article is about the CIA beginning to increase the numbers of women analysts in the 1990s, leading to "Jen" who led the Seal Team to Bin Laden.
Thought you might enjoy them, i keep meaning to read a book that's been around for about ten years of the women spies of WWII? Sisterhood of Spies. Has anybody read it?
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/alaska-p-davidson-first-female-fbi-agent/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/09/16/secret-weapons.html
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I need to dig, I am pretty sure I bought the book on female spies when in a used book store,, Probably up in North Carolina, so the book may be in that house as well.
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I am just so upset about the rape and beating of that young woman in India. She was on a bus with a young male date and they had just seen a movie. I believe I read that she was a medical school student. Six men starting beating the both of them up and gang raping her. Now she has died. There have been huge protests in India, but not enough to change the culture. The rule of law there seems to be:
Men can feel free to grab and rape.
Women bring shame upon themselves and their families if they report this.
It is the woman's fault if she is raped.
You know, we have the same sort of thing going on right here in Annapolis at our Naval Academy. Young women complain and it gets written up on THEIR records against them, but the young men get off scot free.
The same thing is said, according to our local paper, to be going on at West Point and at the Air Force Academy.
And in our armed services. BIG time in our army.
I get the impression men in high office think women have been made just for raping and sex and are being loud mouthed nuisances when and if they complain!
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Think about joining the book discussion Travels with Herodotus the author, Kapuseinski includes bits of Herodotus' Histories that includes their viewpoint of the beginnings in writing of how women are thought of and treated which does not seem to have changed for many over 3 to 8 million years. I picked up a copy of The Histories and my mouth has not closed since I started reading. However, I found Travels with Herodotus fun, enlightening from a journalists view of recent events taking place in the same lands traveled by Herodotus in the first century BC - I was engrossed from the first chapter.
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I own and read Herodotus many decades ago. I, too, recommend him to any who have missed this important introduction to the history of mankind. If The History Book Club still exists, and I expect it does, that is where I bought my book. Eons ago I bought most of their books, skipping the ones giving too much detail on battles. Now I spend most of my days of decrepit old age with recreational reading and keeping up to date with what is going on now, but I still own a splendid history library. Much of it has been gifted to various family members who have shown an interest in one place or period or another.
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This book is partly about Herotodus, but mainly about the nature of travel: why we do it, what we learn about others and ourselves. Come and see.
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Reading about Jefferson and the women he loved really brought it home to me the hazards of child birth back in that era.. if there had been birth control, his wife would probably have lived a long and complete life. Instead even though she lost most of her pregnancies, she kept getting pregnant over and over ..Sad.
The Indian rape seems to have stirred up the middle class in Indian.. I cannot believe that this actually happened on a bus.. Is there nowhere safe for women??
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The bus DRIVER joined in the beatings and rape! The bus DRIVER! Then they threw the woman and her escort off the bus and drove away.
But the mind set is like concrete: if a woman gets raped it simply has to be HER FAULT!
Men are, by nature and by all that is right in this world, entitled to their bit of fun. Women are just "things."
This victim was a TWENTY-THREE YEAR OLD medical studant.
One legislator has suggested women should be required to wear trousers in public rather than skirts.
Men all over India are questioning her virginity. It HAS to be her fault, you see. I mean, it is NEVER the man's fault. Never. She made them do it!
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Same for incest in this country - women do not want to make an enemy of the men and yet it seems a revolution is going to be needed - the soft sell is not stopping this...
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Women get to be a scapegoat in most areas. Just think of the muslim belief that women are property.. Then they kill them if their belief in property is disturbed.. We are lucky in that most of us are well educated,, middle class women in this era.. We may have been put down, but not beaten ( I hope) and although we all have issues with how we were treated in the business world, we still persevered.
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In our very recent past, women were considered the property of men in the Christian world, as well.
When a woman married, all her assets became her husband's and he had all control. If she ran away from a wife beater, he owned the children and she could not have them.
I detest the Christian marriage ceremony, albeit most of our young have sense enough to change it. About half of my granddaughters did. When they ask who giveth this woman, the reference is that she has to be owned by SOME man, be it her father or her grandfather or uncle or brother. She has to be SOME man's property. And she is being passed, usually by a contract she may have had no say in whatsoever, to her husband as property.
So we are not all that far ahead in our culture. I do consider it a blessing to live in this more advanced culture; that is a given. But we have a long way to go yet.
One of my granddaughters who absolutely adores my son, her daddy, came down the aisle alone rather than give a nod to the inference that she was his property. Several others had both parents escort them down the aisle.
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My daughter wanted both of us to escort her down the aisle, but it wasn't wide enough.
The Vienna Philharmonic has actually let a few women musicians in. What a shock! Now they are only about 50 years behind other major orchastras!
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Don't forget that some denominations still have women say They will "love, honor and obey" in their wedding vows.
Jean
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I did the love and honor bit, but refused the obey in all three of my ceremonies. Yes Gals, I was married three times. All three are dead now. Cancer for each. Prostate for Number One, Colon for Number Two, and Melanoma from playing golf for Number Three. They were all three sweeties, but Number Three was the best of the lot.
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I did the whole old fashioned, love , honor and obey.. walked down the aisle with my Dad, but I was a Daddys girl and somehow it felt just right to be his baby girl for one last hour.. My husband slipped in that he obeyed me as well and the minister gave him such a look.. but he felt fair was fair.. Only one marriage, but I was lucky.. got it right for me the first time and stayed happy and loving for 51 years.,
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A California appeals court overturned the rape conviction of a man who authorities say pretended to be a sleeping woman's boyfriend before initiating intercourse, ruling that an arcane law from 1872 doesn't protect unmarried women in such cases.
A panel of judges reversed the trial court's conviction of Julio Morales and remanded it for retrial, in a decision posted Wednesday from the Los Angeles-based court.
Morales had been sentenced to three years in state prison. He was accused of entering a woman's bedroom late one night after her boyfriend had gone home and initiating sexual intercourse while she was asleep, after a night of drinking.
The victim said her boyfriend was in the room when she fell asleep, and they'd decided against having sex that night because he didn't have a condom and he had to be somewhere early the next day.
Morales pretended to be her boyfriend in the darkened room, and it wasn't until a ray of light from outside the room flashed across his face that she realized he wasn't her boyfriend, according to prosecutors.
"Has the man committed rape? Because of historical anomalies in the law and the statutory definition of rape, the answer is no, even though, if the woman had been married and the man had impersonated her husband, the answer would be yes," Judge Thomas L. Willhite Jr. wrote in the court's decision.
The appeals court added that prosecutors argued two theories, and it was unclear if the jury convicted Morales because the defendant tricked the victim or because sex with a sleeping person is defined as rape by law.
The court said the case should be retried to ensure the jury's conviction is supported by the latter argument.
The decision also urges the Legislature to examine the law, which was first written in response to cases in England that concluded fraudulent impersonation to have sex wasn't rape because the victim would consent, even if they were being tricked into thinking the perpetrator was their husband.
Willhite noted that the law has been applied inconsistently over the years in California.
In 2010, a similar law in Idaho prevented an unmarried woman from pressing rape charges after being tricked into sex with a stranger by her then-boyfriend.
The judge called what happened "despicable" but said the state's law left the court with no choice. Idaho's law was amended to cover all women in 2011.
Morales' attorney Edward Schulman declined comment when reached by phone Thursday.
Prior to the conviction, Schulman had argued Morales believed the sex was consensual because the victim responded to his kisses and caresses, according to the decision.
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What a disgusting man.. Maybe the judge had to, but they need to retry and put him away for a long long time.. Old laws need to be revisted and changed.
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There are 2 new female representatives from the deep south who have put up bills to do away with Planned Parenthood funding. Both have said, in public and on tape for all to see, that this organization is an abortion factory.
And that is just flat out not so, and PP keeps very careful records and books and totally separates their medical treatments so that no funds from this nation's government go toward free abortions for anyone; this they have done for YEARS, as it is already the law that the U.S.A. will not allow taxpayer dollars for abortions, even if the woman will die without one.
But NINETY-SEVEN PER CENT (97%) of all Planned Parenthood work is giving mammograms to poor women who cannot afford to pay for them and also filling their birth control prescriptions so they will not keep on having babies. Ninety-Seven percent! And this is Public Information and available on paper in writing and on the web for any and all who ask. And Ann Richards (bless her forever and may her soul rest in peace!) has a beautiful and brilliant daughter who heads up PP now and tells the world the truth.
So my question is, how CAN those women stand up there and declare these lies in strong, certain voices?
Because they are swallowing whole the lies of the male preachers who tell them this, that is why! It ought to be made a crime by law, because it IS A CRIME to slander this organization like that when PP has done SO much good.
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They put this type of bill up 30 or more times without any chance of it passing. No wonder they only passed a little over 200 bills last session.
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I would guess that people need something to hate and Planned Parenthood is an easy target. Stupid, but then just because people get elected does not make them bright.
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I'm ashamed to admit it, but these women representatives are from Tennessee, and at least one of them is not new. She introduced this same bill last year.
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Mary, why do they not seem to be aware of the history of Planned Parenthood?
Now, I have to admit to a life long immersion in that organization. One of my father's sisters was the first President of the Washington, D.C. branch, and was active right up until her death in 1986. The offices on Massachusetts Avenue had a ceremony for her when the family went there after her death to donate a framed letter she had received from Margaret Sanger. So I was born and raised into service in that direction.
That being said, the history, the REAL history, is so compelling and so very, very vital to the medical needs and health of literally MILLIONS of citizens of this nation. We would be in dire straits without them. Frankly, it is my belief that if the crazies manage to stop having taxpayers put up money to help them help women, the women of this great country will put up the money themselves to help their sisters in need.
So it is not out of a fear for the future of Planned Parenthood that I ask this, but out of pure curiosity that just cannot comprehend a situation in which people stand up and make declarations that are flat out untruthful! My whole sense of outrage is screaming: WHY????? Why do these women debase themselves by LYING?
I should go on to say that I do not object to anyone being opposed to Planned Parenthood or the services it provides. We are all entitled to our own opinions and preferences. I just think it wrong to fight something you feel is wrong by making yourself a LIAR in the process.
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I must confess that I now honestly believe that our congress is full of people who care very little about the truth and everything about pleasing some part of their party.. The misinformation out there is amazing. Does anyone live in a state that is now charging a tax like a sales tax on transactions and labeling it Obamacare type names?? I know on facebook, I have a friend who insists it is happening. I know it is not in Florida, but have no idea anywhere else.
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Ask her. Ask her where and how it works. Tell her you want to be able to put a search engine on it and read up about how it works. All of the information taxpayers need to know is on each and every state's website that puts the information out there for taxpayers. They ALL do it, no exceptions. She cannot possibly say that and then have no further information as to which states or states.
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I have to take the classes yet but yes, we have now included in all Real Estate transactions three new taxes that are supposed to be from the Feds and two of them are labeled something or other Obama Health Care. So I think this is not so much a state issue but a Federal issue. Not sure yet what it is all about till I get myself to a class.
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One of those taxes is a surcharge on capital gains if your adjusted gross income is over $200,000 ($250,000 for a couple)- negatively referred to as the tax on selling your house. It's 3.8% of their taxable capital gain. However, for most people, the first $250,000 gain on selling their residence (not sale price, but reportable gain) is not taxable. There is a lot of confusion on this part of the law. I did a search for "Obamacare tax on selling your home" to come up with some reputable sites, including Forbes and Money and a couple of others. Someone who has a lot of investment income and a high adjusted gross income may have to pay that additional 3.8%, but I think the percentage of people affected is close to 5%. Certainly I won't be affected. But some of the positive parts of "ObamaCare" such as allowing a child to remain on our health insurance until she finished grad school and, for family members, lowering drug costs in the donut hole have been a benefit.
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could be some are using these new taxes to justify their politics but there are these three taxes that are new, starting this year to show up on the HUDs (closing statements) - do not have a closing scheduled to know what is showing up but we are still have many training sessions on the new tax additions.
There is also a new tax for those investing in apartment building purchases - I wonder if that is where the high income folks are being affected. Since I no longer do any commercial I do not plan on learning about it. And then another new tax on the income of agents that may be because of the delay in approving the tax relief during the fiscal cliff vote so that we all have that tax increase this year. Unfortunately I've already trashed the letter from A&M which monitors and explains all changes affecting real estate.
I think the change in Capitol Gains is an additional percentage because upon selling, if you are not swapping there has alway been a Capitol Gains tax.
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No, this was a tax on an ordinary purchase and she copied it onto her facebook site.. It was Colorado..I really will look at their laws to see if I can figure what it is.. It struck me as like a sales tax.. That is what startled me, but Florida has opted out of setting up their insurance sites and that might be the trigger.our Governor became a millionaire with managed care, so he hates anything that interferes with his money or now " his wifes money" from the blind trust.. Money is money, but seemingly not in Florida.
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Steph, I think it is the same everywhere.
Basically, some people enter politics out of a sense of altruism; of duty towards ones country. Patriotism.
Some people enter politics to further their personal ambitions, particularly as pertains to the size of their purse. These want to become rich and powerful from political office. Hordes of them leave fame and power in politics and go right into power and big money in lobbying.
The first type, the altruists, seem to be dropping out in droves these days. Just overwhelmed by the big mouthed and the payoffs and the betrayals of the public trust.
The second type seem to be ruling our country at present, and so we get ever stuck deeper and deeper in the crud. So sad. So very sad.
I really think of all the sayings I have heard in my nearly 84 years, the one that said "Follow The Money" was the truest of all. Always follow the money, and when you manage to do that, you truly come to understand what is going on and how the vast majority of the human population is being had. Big time.
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Some good news!
An amazing "Holy Cow!" column by Jimmy Carter about religious discrimination of women.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html
The "Elder's" site
http://www.theelders.org/
Jean
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Thank you so much, Jean. I had read that Jimmy Carter did that, but had never read what he wrote about it. I have just sent it off to my FIVE (5) daughters, Elizabeth, Anne, Becky, Debi and Pam. I will shortly send it to my 13 granddaughters.
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This is appalling. Yesterday, on his radio show, Rush Limbaugh said: "You know how to stop abortion? Require that each one occur with a gun."
That's right. At a time when we need to have a serious conversation about gun safety and mental health -- and when we still have a House unwilling to protect women through the Violence Against Women Act -- Rush Limbaugh decides to spew even more hateful vitriol toward women.
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He's certifiable, no doubt about it. The saddest part is that radio stations pay him big money to broadcast that bilge. There's a lot more hate in this country then we ever knew. I have huge fear for the Obama family. I'm almost afraid to watch the inauguration.
Jean
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That is exactly the way I feel.
You know, it is amazing to me that so many millions of people in this country think Limbaugh is giving them the NEWS. Spot on from the latest most up to date true information. They do not seem to realize that he is being paid multimillions to shout out the most outrageous garbage he can come up with and get away with disseminating along the airways.
But people repeat and repeat and spout out his bilge as though it were Gospel truth. So disgusting, but more than that, it is scary, scary stuff.
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Limbaugh is a terrible man, but I am more afraid of the people who seem to have a blind hatred for the entire Obama family.. It is sad that so many people automatically decide that they should be in control of womens bodies.. I just feel more and more that we should worry about the next generation..
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I keep trying and trying to figure out what it is about Obama that makes some people have such a deep hatred for him in their guts.
Is it his foreign sounding name?
Do they have a feeling of nausea over his parents being one black and one white? This is something some people feel in a very deep, primitive sort of way. It has no basis in reality, but these people are not thinking things out for themselves or thinking in a rational way; they are just reacting from their most basic, reptilian portion of their brains.
Is it just flat out racism? Do they hate and/or resent his color? Do they feel all blacks are inferior and it is a blot on our nation that he holds our highest office and represents THEM?
I find we are not all put together in such a way that, if we go from early childhood to adulthood without learning to be contemplative, we ever learn the ways in which to quiet the processes of our surface instincts and think hard upon the facts and implications of facts all about us and learn to sort out the truth.
The whole purpose of college is, or at least used to be, that we learn to THINK. Most of our population never gets to college or even has training at that level. So most of us are reacting to the daily grind and to the news tidbits we hear with passions based on near total ignorance. We are, in fact, all reaction and no thought process.
I am an extremely curious person. In fact, most of my life I have thought of myself in relation to Rudyard Kipling's THE ELEPHANT CHILD in Just So Stories.
So Barbara Walters had Honey Boo Boo as one of her ten most interesting people in 2012.
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I had never even heard of Honey Boo Boo. So I found out how to find her and one Saturday sat down to reruns of numerous episodes of that series on TLC. Scheesch!
I found a family with deep love for one another and a very raw, untutored intelligence with just all sorts of potential, who are living in my worst nightmare. They have zero manners. They eat their food like pigs grunting away at their slop. They yell, rather than speak, and they mention things pertaining to bodily functions and sex that most of us don't even whisper. Over and over all day long they do this. They have no clue as to proper nutrition, and spend their days slouching on couches gobbling fast food snacks. They seem happy and upbeat, covering a deep sense of inferiority. Their priorities are extremely shortsighted, mostly stretching no further than what this day will bring.
Is this America today? I don't know, but it may well portray a very large portion of it. Frightens me, it does. Learning is EVERYthing, and ignorance is dangerous.
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I don't understand Barbara Walters or the population that watches Honey Boo Boo. Looking in one time to see what itis about, i understand. That's a curiousity for any of the reality shows. But once you've seen what it is about, why would anyone want to go back and look again. Is it an insecurity and therefore the "joy" of making fun of these people and their lifestyle? It's beyond me.
Jean
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There are probably as many reasons why folks hate Obama as there are those who unleash their hateful words - one reason that a group of us believe (as a result of clacking and clucking then getting down to finding out what we could since we live in small area of blue surrounded by deep dark red and we all had good friends we could question some things) seems that he is like a scapegoat.
All the things that have them unsettled about how the nation is becoming less self-sufficient they blame the Dems and Big City Poor who they see with their hand out while committing all the crime - since they know enough not to talk about the black big city poor in the way they did, Obama becomes a poster child and so all the uncertainty, anger, change, violence on TV, news filled with big city crime, folks loosing houses without wall street punishment, more poor with drugs the lifestyle - all that is blamed on people they pull back from blaming but, that rage has to go someplace and not only because Obama is a Dem, a President that they believe should single handed make it all better but, he is dark skinned like the people they blame for the downfall of America.
As I say anyone can probably find many others whose vitriolic attitudes come from another part of the psyche but that is what we have figured out for some.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Well, Jean, exactly.
I shudder at the thought of ever having to take that culture of life in again.
But I cannot hide from it and pretend it does not exist. So what is to be done to counter this unruly barbarism?
I sigh at the thought of burdening our teachers with ever more workload. I know my teaching daughters work at their jobs 7 days a week, what with all they have to take home to work on and the extra curricula activities they are asked to appear at and/or chaperon.
So perhaps those children their teachers pick out as hopeless in their lack of manners and their potty mouths EARLY ON should be sent to special "special ed" classes, not for the learning disabled, but for the culturally disabled? They could be taught what is and what is not acceptable in polite society, and be taught to like it and like being accepted by their peers.
When and where the problem takes in an entire school, then these Manners classes should be mandatory for all, but NOT part of what the regular classroom teacher has to do. They can hire Manners teachers and send the classes out to them in the same way they send them out to PE or Music or Art or Computer Science or Library.
I mean, my goodness, SOMEthing must be done, or our nation will be so dumbed down we will become unrecognizable.
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I think it is not something Teachers can take on - they are there to teach language yes, but not to be a judge and school books are not written in the vernacular of the day. As long as we have TV glorifying the base in society and songs that include this vile language and the idea the excellence is no longer what makes you popular but rather how much you can imitate those society castes aside because of their poverty the kids are going to rebel and either copy or some will thumb their nose at those who look down on others and copy the down and outs. None of this is new it has been growing since Elvis with each succeeding decade worse than the last. Just ask a few kids and find out how many sit down together for their evening meal - most eat alone at a kitchen counter with mom dishing out the food with 10 more things that she needs to complete before she can hit her pillow. No one has time any longer and many kids are bringing up themselves.
If women were paid more fairly they could hire the kind of help that would allow family life to return even for a single mom. Asking teachers to change the culture of kids is asking teachers to be co-dependent to business power, making it easy for business to keep their unfair practices - and if there is no effort to stop the vacuuming of wealth from the 99% we will continue to see Lord of the Flies played out around us.
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Reality TV is a mess.. I watch very little of it.. I originally liked Storage Wars, but then it got sillier and now proves to not be real. Oh well, my opinion of real is that no reality tv is that. It is simply theatre and not very good theater at that. But it is so popular with most people.. The Kardashians have somehow made millions by being spoiled too made up women who do nothing interesting.. Simply get paid to appear.. How sad..
Honey BooBoo, I watched once.. I am sorry, that family is the worst example of trash I have seen in a long long time.. No reality tv for me.. Very little TV period.. I like Big Bang Theory.. watch reruns of NCIS and Law and order SVU.
I read, thank heaven..
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Steph, I have never, ever watched Reality TV, but for this one bout of curiosity because of Barbara Walter's and her 10 most interesting people of 2012. I simply had to know what the hoorah was all about.
And I totally agree, they live really gross lives. But my thought is this: if these children are going to school, and as it is quite obvious they are NEVER, EVER going to learn manners from their parents, couldn't there be a special course just for them. My goodness, if NO ONE ever teaches them, they will grow up that way and have a bazillion babies of their own and THEY will grow up that way and so on and on. We need to eradicate it with a manners course that is taught by special teachers and not added on to their classroom teacher's workload.
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I agree with Steph---what trash Honey Boo Boo is! Barbara Walters lost credibility with me when she chose her. I watched the program once to see what all the fuss was about. Why anyone watches is is beyond me! I used to watch Storage Wars, too, Steph; but quit for the same reason. I liked Survivor when it first came out; but not so much anymore. I like some of the cooking shows like Top Chef, but that's about it for reality.
Sally
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Just do not watch Barbara Walters at all any more - she lost with me when she was so rude to the Queen of England a couple of years ago - she was interviewing just the Queen - I believe when Barbara was there for Prince William's wedding. She had the manners of this honey to do or whatever - I have never seen her or it either.
There is only one show I watch other than PBS and that is The Good Wife - oh yes, and the 5 o'clock news - my take on the Barbara Walters thing is these are not folks who we admire so much as they the folks that most people are talking about and remember she lives and works in an area where the interests are often not matching the interests of other parts of the nation - I see a lot of TV is about either the Northeast or Southern California if not as the setting certainly in the tone.
Of the Oscar nominations - I still have not seen Lincoln and this one about the capture of Bin Laden and the one with Meryl Streep and Tommy Lee Jones - my daughter saw that one and was disappointed and she also saw Lincoln that she praised to the moon saying how good it was.
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I get up in the mornings to Morning Joe on MSNBC, except on the weekends, when I just listen to my public radio station that plays all classical music.
Then nothing more on weekends until the six o'clock news. I never watch daytime TV. Weekdays, I turn on Chris Matthews HARDBALL at five; again on MSNBC. Local news at six, Diane Sawyer at six thirty, Brian Williams at seven, and then not much of anything until Rachel Maddow at nine on MSNBC. I watch Switched At Birth, Criminal Minds, Nashville and Major Crimes, when they are on and if I am in the mood. I watch Doc Martin and Midsomer Murders on PBS, and of course all of the Masterpiece productions, currently Downton Abbey. I love television and movies, but really gag at violence, sex, rude and unrefined, and crude language. Criminal Minds is quite violent, but I am fascinated by the character Penelope Garcia, a computer genius who dresses up in the MOST outlandish outfits (no nakedness, thank goodness!), and their real in-house genius. This is about a real FBI unit. It is not portraying the real one or any of their cases, so far as I know, but the aerial photo at the start is really of the FBI complex at Quantico, Virginia.
Sunday mornings I watch Chris Matthews on NBC and George Stephanopolous on ABC and check out Face The Nation and catch as much of Meet The Press as I can. MSNBC repeats Meet The Press later.
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In my 8th or 9th grade health classes we had a section on "manners" and other domestic things, how to set a table, which utensiles to use, how to make a bed, etc. i think it was helpful to many students at the time (1954/5) who also may not have had dinner together or salad forks in their homes. Health teachers today - my son is one - have drugs, alcohol, std's etc to talk about - altho that same health teacher i had took us to see Frank Sinatra in Man w/ the Golden Arm, about heroin use, so maybe things aren't as different. We are just seeing on tv cultures we don't live in and now know about them when we didn't know about them when we were growing up.
I too watch Good Wife and NCIS, but also Scandal! Olivia Pope may be the strongest woman character that has ever been on tv. It's very well-written, except for the gratuitous sex scene that seems to be imperative in every show. I can put up w/ it because the rest of the show/story is so good. Thursday night 10:00, ABC.
My DH and i were watching Suits last night on USA, and i said "Well, George________(?) 'seven words you can't say on tv' is no longer apropos!" i'm not a prude about language, but good grief! Those 7 words seem to be mandatory in shows these days. (Sorry, his last name is alluding me)
Barbara, i agree with your comments on Obama as scapgoat. Again, the 6:00 news gives us the 6 murders that happened in the city lst night at the top of the news, or whatever other bad news they can come up with, even tho the serious crime rate has continued to decrease for two decades. As we watch it every night i think it has a compounding effect and we think of the world as being more and more evil. My little twice a week small town newspaper had 99% good or neutral news in it as i was growing up. I wasn't seeing city crime even if the tv stations of the city were showing it. So crime seems like it's exploding when statistics tell us that generally it's not - except for the mass shootings, or the drug and gang shootings in Chicago or Phila. NYC continues to have a dropping murder rate........but i've gotten away from Obama. The NUTS have an easier way to communicate bcs of the internet, and we hear more about them bcs of national tv, and bcs Limbaugh et al can get on the airways.
As i said, i fear for the Obamas, the potential reasons for endangering them piles up each day - his race, his gun control stand, the economy, the ranting about his tyranny, etc.
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George Carlin. :D Funny man!
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Yes! TY Mary
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Well, good for Carter. (And nelson mandela who founded the group that issued the statement). Some sanity in an insane world.
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mark
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MaryPage
All the reasons you mentioned for why there are so many people that hate Obama are probably true but no matter what the reasons are it all boils down to racism. No one will ever admit to that but that's what it is. If it is brought up to them they will say you're the one that brings it up not me. I think most of these people were in shock that a black man became President in this country and be voted in again was a slap in the face. I worry about him and his family today.
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All went well. I loved that Joe Biden used Sonya as his justice to be sworn in.. I want to read her autobiography. I saw an interview on TV and she has such an easy way about her..Very honest about her Mothers problems, etc.
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Yesterday was a great day. Joe Biden is so funny, I think he was having a great time walking to people and shaking their hands and I think the FBI (security) was trying to get him to stop and get back in the car.
Also while the Obama family were watching the parade did you notice the girls and Obama himself had a cell phone it was so typical American family. Also Chris Mathews was talking about him chewing gum, they thought it might me a nicotine type gum to stop him from wanting to smoke, anyway after Michelle and the girls had left he appeared to be looking down at his phone and I wondered if she texted him and told him to to get rid of the gum because his suddenly took it out of his mouth. :) ;)
I'm glad all went well. It's so nerve racking with how many people were there.
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Yes, Jeriron, i kepy saying "get back in the car!". But they are a fun family to watch, so normal and natural, you want to have them over for dinner. And i agree w/ you about the racism. It's interesting how much there still is and yet how nobody wants to be called, or admit to being, a racist.
Just came across this wiki article about women's statistics, thought i'd share. Good news and bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_America
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I was very upset by the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC tonight. Not upset with her, as I am a big fan, but upset with the news brought by a lot of women she interviewed. All over this nation MEN have been working diligently to deny women the legal medical abortions they have a constitutional right to by the laws of these United States of America. With relentless urgency, men are seeking public office with campaign promises of lowering the national debt, and then they get into office and the first thing they do is introduce all sorts of legislation to impede and make difficulties for any woman who finds she must have an abortion. And the threat of death makes it hell for the doctors who want to provide these services and keep thousands upon thousands of women from dying. I just don't get it. I don't get where and when and how it became the most important issue for the men of our country to keep women from making their OWN decisions about whether or not to have a baby. Oh, I just wish God would turn the tables and MAKE men understand how intrusive and cruel they are being. Our bodies and our individual lives belong to US, and it is wrong for anyone else to dictate what shall become of any woman's body. They are making judgments about situations and people they know NOTHING about. Oh, it is just so unbelievable. Tell me, why do not the folks who yell loudest about government intrusion into our private lives yell about THIS extreme intrusion? Is it because they are one and the same people who are doing the yelling?
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like you, I truly do not understand all of these politicians who get into office and immediately decide to regulate women.. My body is just that.. mine. I don't tell any males what to do.. but oh boy do they think they should tell me ... or any woman..really. Yesterday I saw a survey that said 70% of the people in the US.. would not change roe vs wade.. So why do the pols love to jump on it.. They need to do so many things in congress, but instead.. they campaign and use divisive issues to cause publicity.
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It seems to be clothed in the fervor of religious belief, but I do not, at bottom, buy that, for it is just the same as the "religious" fervor that moves the Imams of Islam who insist God does not mean women to be seen by any men other than those who own them as daughters or wives, and that these women must not receive educations or eat with the men of the family or drive cars or receive medical care in which a male doctor sees or touches them. It is BARBARISM, whether it is here in this country or in the Middle East or wherever.
Our general public shrinks from going on the attack against our own politicians who do this, albeit we approve our children being outfitted for and sent to war to wipe out the religious fanatics of OTHER nations and die doing so, but I think we have to stop and think and once and for all realize this is NOT religion, although they claim it is, but it is plain old-fashioned bigotry against females from birth to death. I think we have to call their bluff and tell them publicly that they are bigots and bullies masquerading as godly men of religious belief, and that they need to get off their high horses on which they get their jollies in life from depriving women of their rights as human beings and perhaps, just perhaps, pass some laws to fix the myriad things this country REALLY needs fixing, and which have nothing to do with the terrorizing of women.
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Well said Mary Page.. I read a book one time on the theory that men are secretly afraid of women and this causes the savagery of the attacks.. That is one of the reasons I have ordered the course onEarly Christianity.. I wanted to see if I could figure out when and why the early church was so anti women.
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The early church was that way because it was the culture already. The myth that Eve tempted Adam to sin and displease God set it up way before Christianity. Jesus was a feminist, but was unable in a short life to change anything, though goodness knows He tried.
Men get urges when they see women. Not us, Steph; we do not bring on those urges these days. But from teen years to fifties, women cause urges. Sick men start with baby girls, but that is another discussion. Ordinary men get urges, and the feminist argument is they should learn to control these. The male argument down lo these thousands and thousands of years is that it is ALL THE FEMALE'S FAULT that she makes men want to sin and have sex with every one of the nubile ones. It is OUR BAD. What more is there to say?
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The misogyny is one of the reasons i am not religious. Even as a young girl i dismissed the Adam and Eve stories, etc and always thought of the Bible stories as myths. When i was growing up in the Methodist church, they did have some women ministers, but it was difficult for women to get into seminaries. I also saw blatant racism in my own church when they refused to allow an African American to join the church!?! This was in Pennsylvania in 1962, not in the South.
I am surprised how often men voice a fear of women, altho i don't think those men would call it a "fear"........we're able to "manipulate" them, we're "deceptive," we're "intimidating", we're "irrational" and therefore they can't understand us, etc. I too remember reading that the "power" to have children, "give life", was mysterious to men and may have been passed down in DNA, or subconsciously, thru the centuries. That seems irrational to me, but my husband is a biologist and he assures me that it is possible. :)
News today: women have new opportunities in combat positions in the military. I'm not a supporter of war, but i believe we need to have a defense and for those women who wish to make a career in the military they should have every opportunity that men have. If you can't be in combat postions it's very difficult to make it to general officer. Plus, there are few "frontlines" in war and regardless of the positions women have held since the beginning of time and combat, including nurses, they have often found themselves in combat. Therefore, they should be eligible for all postions, pay and opportunities that they are capable of handling, as are men. Btw, some of those positions had been opened in the Carter and Clinton administrations and rescinded in the Reagan and G W Bush admin.
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During World War II, most of the men of this country were taken in to service for combat positions, so women went into the factories and government offices, etc.
There was still a shortage of needed help in the services, so women pilots were taken in as WASPS, but not "officially" in. So they flew and flew and flew, and some were killed, but they had no benefits. The women pilots had to get together their own contributions to bring their dead home for burial. True! Only a couple of years ago did the Pentagon finally admit these women existed and give them some thanks. Most of them dead by then, of course.
I had the great privilege of flying beside one (in a commerical flight) from Dulles Airport to Pittsburgh some years back; around 1989 or so, I think. She was off to give a speech about their service to their country, and was quite remarkable. I was humbled and proud, at one and the same time. She, too, is dead now. She lived in Middleburg, Virginia. Fantastic human being. Huge power of personality.
http://www.wingsacrossamerica.us/wasp/
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They are a great story. PBS - American Experience has a documentary about the WASPS. You can see it online.
I had a great warm evening, even tho it's 22degrees here, i had dinner with 5 of my favorite people, all women, a warm, fun, delicious dinner. Every January, we, all members of the founding Board of the Alice Paul Institute, have dinner together. Alice's birthday is Jan 11. One of them and the one i'm closest too was a volunteer president of API for 15 yrs, through the buying of the Paul estate and renovation. She also was instrumental in starting a National Collaborative on Women's History Sites. One of them is a NJ State Senator, has been for two decades. One is a retired elementary school teacher and union activist for decades; one is an atty and one is a very busy activist for women and has been for 40 yrs. They are not only productive women, but are great fun and current on events and great conversationalists, even though 5of the 6 are "introverts". LOL It's an evening i love and look forward to every year, even though i see each of them at various events thruout the year.
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Sounds like a lovely evening. Women of a certain age tend to get more and more involved in causes.. WE have the time and energy now.. no little children, careers over.. we take on causes.. Men retire and turn to tv..but women become stronger as we age.. I am convinced of this.
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I served in the Air Force during the Korean War. At the time women had few options - clerical,etc. I was fortunate and attended radio school and worked in flight operations. Believe if we want to go to war we should bring back the draft and draft women as well. Israel does! Perhaps then we would think a little more about it and not be oblivious as we seem to be now as to what is happening in our war zones.
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Good on you! You bust my buttons with pride!
The facts on the ground are these: women HAVE BEEN and ARE in combat. They just do not receive credit for being so, because to be a woman in combat has been against the law.
So the Pentagon has not been able to "assign" a woman to a combat unit. They have had to "attach" them where needed. Attach means they are not part of the unit they are indeed a part of. They are an extra, an auxiliary, a "contract" part of the unit, and as such they see combat but it does not go on their record. These women are needed as experts in the local language, as questioners of the local women (where the culture does not allow a man to speak to or touch them, or the local women may be subject to honor killing after the American men have moved on!), as medical aides, as radiomen, as drivers, you name it! But the work of going with the unit means they DIE when the others do, get wounded when the others do, DO NOT get the medals and purple hearts the others do, do NOT get the increase in pay called "combat" pay because, hey, they are not in combat! And the career women do not get the promotions the men who have been in exactly the same place at precisely the same time get. Promotions often require combat duty on the record of the one being promoted, especially to the higher ranks.
The question of Women in Combat is an Augean Stable of a question. You can sincerely be opposed, and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is TRUTH. The truth is that women ARE in combat and everyone knows it and the women are left out of the glory and the perks which they deserve just as much as the guys.
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I've always been in favor of the draft, and for women, too. This was even when our four daughters were still teenagers (they're now in their 50s).
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Excerpts from
Hate Crimes: A Rape Every Minute, a Thousand Corpses Every Year
There' a pattern of violence against women that’s broad and deep and incessantly overlooked
...Occasionally, a case involving a celebrity or lurid details in a particular case get a lot of attention in the media... while the abundance of incidental news items about violence against women in this country, in other countries, on every continent including Antarctica, constitute a kind of background wallpaper for the news...
Never mind India ...The story of the alleged rape of an unconscious teenager by members of the Steubenville High School football team was still unfolding, and gang rapes aren’t that unusual here either. Take your pick: some of the 20 men who gang-raped an 11-year-old in Cleveland, Texas, were sentenced in November, while the instigator of the gang rape of a 16-year-old in Richmond, California, was sentenced in October, and four men who gang-raped a 15-year-old near New Orleans were sentenced in April, though the six men who gang-raped a 14-year-old in Chicago last fall are still at large...
...Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta estimated that there were 19,000 sexual assaults on fellow soldiers in 2010 alone and that the great majority of assailants got away with it, though four-star general Jeffrey Sinclair was indicted in September for “a slew of sex crimes against women.”...
...So many men murder their partners and former partners that we have well over 1,000 homicides of that kind a year -- meaning that every three years the death toll tops 9/11’s casualties, though no one declares a war on this particular terror. (Another way to put it: the more than 11,766 corpses from domestic-violence homicides since 9/11 exceed the number of deaths of victims on that day and all American soldiers killed in the “war on terror.”) If we talked about crimes like these and why they are so common, we’d have to talk about what kinds of profound change this society, or this nation, or nearly every nation needs. If we talked about it, we’d be talking about masculinity, or male roles, or maybe patriarchy, and we don’t talk much about that.
Instead, we hear that American men commit murder-suicides -- at the rate of about 12 a week -- because the economy is bad, though they also do it when the economy is good; or that those men in India murdered the bus-rider because the poor resent the rich, while other rapes in India are explained by how the rich exploit the poor; and then there are those ever-popular explanations: mental problems and intoxicants -- and for jocks, head injuries. The latest spin is that lead exposure was responsible for a lot of our violence, except that both genders are exposed and one commits most of the violence...
...Rape and other acts of violence, up to and including murder, as well as threats of violence, constitute the barrage some men lay down as they attempt to control some women, and fear of that violence limits most women in ways they’ve gotten so used to they hardly notice -- and we hardly address...
...“A woman was stabbed after she rebuffed a man's sexual advances while she walked in San Francisco's Tenderloin neighborhood late Monday night, a police spokesman said today. The 33-year-old victim was walking down the street when a stranger approached her and propositioned her, police spokesman Officer Albie Esparza said. When she rejected him, the man became very upset and slashed the victim in the face and stabbed her in the arm, Esparza said.”
The man, in other words, framed the situation as one in which his chosen victim had no rights and liberties, while he had the right to control and punish her. This should remind us that violence is first of all authoritarian. It begins with this premise: I have the right to control you.
The entire article written by the gal who in 2000 wrote - Wanderlust: A History of Walking
Read it either here...
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175641/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_the_longest_war/#more
Or here
http://www.alternet.org/gender/hate-crimes-rape-every-minute-thousand-corpses-every-year?paging=off
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Years ago I read a book based on the fact that rape is not sexual in nature, but a method of control.. I thought at the time and still do that this is quite true. The very idea of gang rape makes me shudder. I think these people need the highest punishment allowed. They are a mob.. pure and simple. No excuses...no if but... just put them in jail and leave them there.
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See...I get so emotional about stuff like this, I can't read a lot of it. I don't react rationally, I know. Gang rape? Then public castration out there for all who think this is somehow "macho and about controlling women" to see. Slice, slice, slice....and then into jail for life at hard labor. Give 'em a chance to work off that "control" issue! I know...I'm not rational on this.
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Those sounds like good plans to me, jane!
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I think you are perfectly rational, Jane.
You mirror my own emotions and thoughts exactly.
We have thousands and thousands of years of indignation in our genes. Our sex has been owned, raped, beaten and murdered for centuries, and it has all been allowed and shoved under the rug. But let a man so much as assault a policeman or dignitary, and their sorry butts are in jail forever, if not executed.
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Is there any reliable scientific information on why men can't control their urges - or even why they "need" to satisfy them legally any time they have one - including with a wife?
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One step more - consider that when someone assists a drunk or drug addict in their behavior they are considered an enabler - If rape is the right to control than the law makers and those who base their rational on religion who want to control a women are enablers continuing the world wide historic notion that men and society have the right to control women.
If those in this country were not pushing to go back before Roe the legislatures would not be as harsh - they are simply pandering for the vote and throwing women under the bus to do it.
If a behavior that does not affect everyone is controlling a group we need to be more powerful and piece by piece make laws to eliminate all control over women just as the Black community not only affected our Constitution but changed the view of Blacks on TV - we may have women commentators but that still does not stop the attitude of control -
Unfortunately many of our popular sitcoms keep women in the dumb blond role. Often as mothers and wives showing them when they are vulnerable, when they do silly and dumb things. The last time we had a man playing that role was Tim the Toolman. Now we have a 1950s corporate husband as the hero.
This latest hammer seems to all be about the almighty sperm - not only is abortion threatened but the day after pill and now they are even going after contraception. The gays have made some headway but even there the sperm is not reproducing - at this point whatever is the origination of this viewpoint goes back to before recorded history and so, like much change in behavior of the last century that way is the better road to change -
We at our age may not be as able to shout and scream on the streets but there must be something we can do - any ideas...?
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Callie with as much putting down of women I am thinking like any addiction one bit of behavior leads to the next - I think believing there is a right to control is only carried out by either verbal abuse or physical abuse or sexual abuse - when someone believes they are better than or must prove they are better than they dismiss the value of another - we all did it during war - we make the enemy out as less than ourselves - and once there is this sense of superiority then abuse is the next step - and so to control your own urges has to be predicated on the concept that the other is respected equal to yourself or why bother to control your urge to defile and abuse.
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Barb, I agree. I've always wondered if researchers had ever dared to even suggest the idea of studying the topic. I suspect the suggestion would be squelched immediately.
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It's like for years and years and years all research was done on MEN'S diseases and it was assumed women had the same type problems and it was not necessary to study them separately. As for female "troubles," it was assumed that menstral pain was all in our heads and nothing was going on with that and a huge variety of other things.
Only in MY LIFETIME have they come to realize that men and women have different bodies and function differently.
Big emphasis has always been placed only on the male.
Did you ever stop and think about the fact that from its invention until now, when it is a battle royal still, birth control has not been deemed a thing to be paid for by insurance? But the very MINUTE Viagra and its copy cats were invented, our Congress passed a law that they must be paid for by insurance?
In short, men's enjoyment of sex must be prolonged and at public expense as long as possible.
But the women they do this with have no right to a free pass when it comes to the results on THEIR bodies of the male virility!
The differences and the prejudices have been so very OBVIOUS, but most Americans have paid it no attention at all. Blows my mind, it does!
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Here's a very small thing we can each do, sign the petition to get the Equal Right's Amendment moving again. It's a petition to the White House. You have to sign up for an "account" but it does nothing unless you want to receive newsletters from them. We lacked 3 states to ratify the amendment after the Congress passed it in 1972. There is a legal discussion as to whether we just need to have 3 states ratify uit, or whether the whole process has to start all over.
Sign the petition and encourage as many people as you can to sign it. We need over 6,000 signatures yet to meet the required 15,000.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/vigorously-support-womens-rights-fully-engaging-efforts-ratify-1972-equal-rights-amendment-era/16XQWXpS
Here is more info
http://www.change.org/petitions/equal-rights-amendment-sj-res-21-hj-res-69-sj-res-39-and-hj-res-47
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Thanks I have passed it on to my email list and already received some emails back thanking me - this is something we can do...
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I am sorry. I think that uncontrollable urges are nonsense.. It is just the old"I can do anything I want to to females". Men do not grow up in so many cases.. But sometimes women do not help..The women physically abused who stay in the relationship drive me nuts.. Why oh why...
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Steph, I could not agree with you more. Forinstance, my last husband, the Love of My Life, agreed with me in every bit of this type of conversation. Men DO have urges, but they can also learn self control. And should. We should have a civilized society that thinks and works things out before it sends its young to war and before it attacks its own women.
And women most certainly have been complicit. What IS it that makes them so maleable? Centuries of being so in order to keep their lives? To keep their children? Our laws were set up like forever that a woman could leave, but the children belonged to the man and had to be left with him.
Too many women seem afraid they will not keep their man unless they let him call all the shots. Sometimes one wonders if this cave man mentality has not been long nurtured by us! We! The women!
Just thinking out loud here; not coming down in judgment.
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I'm careful about blaming women too much. Some women are too timid about asserting themselves - perhaps they never heard the word "assertive." But in many cases, even in today's world, the system has been built against us. I, luckily, choose a good mate - and much of that situation is luck, people are not always what they appear to be when we are in dating mode. Just my own example in one area - retirement. Except for the first five years of our dgt's life, i have worked during my married yrs. However, even tho i am getting two "pensions" and social security, all them together add up to about $15000/yr! Less than 1/3 of what the two of us have in annual income.
That is a minor, but important, issue of how women, especially women our age, have had the system stacked against us. Those women who have more controlling husbands then i have had, have many more circumstances stacked against them. Also, our culture glorifies weddings and marriages, so many women go dreamy eyed into marital status and then find it very hard to leave that marital status, especially if they have children, but just going against the social "norm" to single status can be difficult. Our society does very little to support single mothers. You know, that "47% of takers."
Of course, being physically abused is a whole other thing. But i'll bet there are more women being psychologically abused than those being physically abused and much harder to "see", or prove, and there are no "shelters" for the psychologically abused.
Fortunately, our generation learned to support each other in sisterhood and has gotten many things changed, giving us more equity. And as there are more and more single women and single mothers they are also supporting each other and don't feel as much like parias. IF we had an ERA, thousands of more issues of equity could change immediately w/ that amendment w/out every law having to be changed one by one.
Jean
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HURRAH AND AMEN!
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More info of the system not being equal, from the Atlantic, re: women professors.
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/being-married-helps-professors-get-ahead-but-only-if-theyre-male/267289/
Jean
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It is not always because a women is timid that she stays or because she is too dependent on the income that allows their children to continue the schools or what ever - it is also because the worst abuse does not, all of a sudden like a flash of lightening, happen - it is slowly built as one degradation is not enough for the abuser till the victim is no longer shocked and then the abuse becomes rampant - In order to leave the woman has to own she made a mistake and that involves her whole sense of herself. Some can see a future for themselves and their children and they have a support system that is very patient. Many do not.
Another big factor is her own upbringing - had she a healthy upbringing she would not have fallen for the guy in the fist place - she would never have seen or knew what a healthy marriage looked like - she probably thought she was going to fix things to have a different marriage than her parents - then she was sure, with one excuse after another for his behavior, he was really in love with her - she needed him to love her - to say he did not know how to love and could not love her leaves her abandoned with no one loving her - plus if she may still believes her parents loved her and they were abusive therefore, she has no reference till the abuse becomes too damaging.
And then we have another scenario where she is bound and determined she is going to have a better life and family than her childhood so she will fix him - his controlling never does have rhyme or reason, mostly it is alcohol or drugs that he turns to in order to get to sleep - get through a difficulty and from there he is a functioning drunk and when or if he no longer drinks he is a dry drunk - it is the behavior of a drunk or drug addict not the drinking or drugging that needs change and that takes many many years. In the meantime he is not stopping his drinking or drugging - along with his addiction is rage at her followed each time by his saying he loves her and does nice things for her and the kids - with that crumb she is sure she can fix him all the while she is sinking into a swamp of hell still thinking she can rescue him. That is her reason for living, to prove she can do better than her parents, because if she cannot she is just like them. Accepting that she knows she will be a nothing.
Being that low is more than depression - even drugs administered for depression do not help - being told by others she is valued and worthwhile does not sink in - she sees only she failed in life and failed her children - if it gets bad enough she abandons the children and some make news by killing the children. she is not a separate person - she is her failure and her children are failed because she is them and should not have been born into such failure.
Work in a battered women's center for awhile and you will here tons of stories that pretty much all fall into these scenarios.
I wish there was an answer to why men tend to use force in order to control - women control and can yell ans scream or make drama to initiate guilt and we do use force on children but we do not beat and break bones and shoot guns and go on a rampage of mass murder - the best I have come up with in the hundreds of books is of all books, a novel by Elsa Morante, History: A Novel - where she describes marauding German soldiers in Italy with no officers or even sergeant's with them and yet, they commit atrocities on villages that later, they excused as, they had to because of their superiors - Morante's comment in the book is they did it because they could - that being in power is having power that quickly can be used to your advantage. And so, I have been on the search to understand power and coercion.
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Power.. The more power, the more bad things happen.. I do have a friend who was psychologically abused for many years and seemed to be content.. She always said,,, he tells me I am pretty and how much he loves me every day.. Ugh.. Now she is a widow and is starting to realize how much of life she missed.. Interesting to watch.. I just remember being a teen in the mid 50's.. At that point the amount of male coercion was still high.. My Dad was a wonderful man who considered me the equal of anyone and treated my Mom and I with such grace and gentleness.. So I was amazed when a high school boy friend tried shoving me around and pushing me about physical things. I quickly broke off the relationship and endured hearing what a cold cold human I was and how horrible I was from most of my friends. I never forgot it and never under any circumstances allowed myself to endure any sort of things like that. I had a long and loving marriage to a man who valued women..
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Value is a very important word in any discussion about the history of the relationship between the sexes.
My first two husbands were nice people, but the third was perfect. He absolutely put value on and in women, considered me a total equal in every way, and enjoyed the DIFFERENCES between the sexes. Each of us desired the others happiness above all things, and each of us tolerated our different choices. He watched his sports on TV for hours, while I did my puttering about the house and read murder mysteries or watched chick flicks. When we went out with friends or had them here, our conversations were wonderful and he always took the women in the group, including me, completely seriously. In short, he VALUED us, and showed it without fail. I never had a single unhappy moment with him, excepting of course those concerning his failing health.
We had a group of friends we met with for lunch and political discourse once a month. Boy, I miss that group. Talented and highly educated, they were all retired from great careers and enriched my thinking no end. There were 3 couples, and my husband and another man are dead, while we two widows can only keep in touch by email now, since she is about 35 miles away. The other couple is suffering serious health problems. And so it goes. Everything changes. Nothing stays the same. But hey, for a while there life was perfection!
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/4821bd0b51758af648d134f0a5ce96b7/tumblr_mevoxmo41W1qcda5eo1_1280.jpg)
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Good one, Barb!
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self control.. for heavens sakes... learn how to live with the other half of humanity.. The muslims miss so much in life with their attitudes.. Sad and stupid.. Reading about India is amazing.. Part of it of course is the huge disparity in living there, but still the disrespect for women is incredible. Not a county I would care to visit. I was not a happy camper in Egypt either.
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I watched a DVD I just received of the movie GAME CHANGE, and it has really, really gotten me to thinking. Not about the subject matter here, but it touches on it in a very general way. My thinking deeply about what makes Sarah Palin who she is, or Michelle Bachman, or that congresswoman from South Carolina who is so very dimwitted, or those ignorant loudmouthed men sounding off about rape and abortion and so on, you just have to finally figure it is a combination of culture and EDUCATION.
For instance, I think Sarah Palin has a really fine brain, all set up to make of her a truly intelligent woman. But she was never culturally, within her family group, her peer group, her community group, taught to have an intense curiosity about EVERYthing. She found out early on in her life what things she needed to know to get by within the confines of her world, and that was where she, and billions of others, most less well endowed with brain cells than she, stopped. Quit. She never reached any further. This movie shows that so clearly and so bleakly.
Yes, it IS largely a matter of culture. Folk who come from people who value education learn to value it themselves from early in their lives. Those who are not surrounded with this attitude tend to dismiss those who have it and to consider it, GET THIS!, a really dumb way of thinking and doing.
Think about it. If you are filthy rich and you have never lifted a finger to even the least kind of household chore, and you suddenly found your family dead and gone, as well as the fortune, HOW would you manage to take care of yourself? Let's say you have a degree from one of the Seven Sisters. You are set up to get a fine job. But how do you learn how to boil water? Cook? Clean? What to clean WITH and what to clean? How to shop for groceries?
So you are dirt poor. You have never learned manners, your family lives on fast food and goes at that like hogs after slop. No one EVER has a conversation about world affairs. No one has ever turned on a news program. You could have been born smart as hell, but gone all the way through school with teachers who are close to your own culture and have given up any idea of improving on it. You get through the whole educational process with the barest minimum of skills.
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Applause, Applause, MaryPage! Well said - and so very true!
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Very good point. That is why I have argued with some conservative friends who are all for Social Security being made to let people invest in what they want. The great majority of people are only in the now part of their lives and they would fall for anyone giving them a good story...wont matter if it were true..I also feel and have witnessed that there are some people who are simply not quite smart enough to cope with life. Like it or not, we need to help them..
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"Private hands" and "Private business" will always have a percentage of privateers in the mix, and some innocent folk will be ripped off. To countenance this arrangement is akin to saying x% of the population will be thrown outside the fortress walls for the wolves to devour.
What do you think the people who lost their fortunes to Bernie Madoff would think of this arrangement?
It just plain makes me shudder. Those who believe in this have really been indoctrinated into the certainty that government is an enemy. Actually, that is so untrue. Government is US. Us. You and me and our neighbors making committees to take care of matters which affect us all as a group. Arranging that those who know the most about this will get together and appoint some people to take care of this and those who know the most about that will do the same, and then both this and that and the other will be taken care of for all of us.
Over and over and over when a government agency has been told by the congress to privatize part of its functions by contracting them out to non-government business, there has been runaway corruption and it has wound up that taxpayers have been ripped off and people have been hurt. It is just flat out NOT a good idea!
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I do wish that I felt that congress was representative of the people, but I simply don't any more.. I watched yesterday and the committee just sluffed off Gabrielle Gifford.. I have no arguments with guns, but I try pistols, rifles and shotguns are enough. No multiple shot anything like a machine gun and no guns with the type of ammunitions that shoot over and over.. No need. A well regulated militia at the point of the constitution was in part because they used guns every day for hunting, etc.
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I have gone over and over and over the amendment, the whole constitution, and the history, and I am one of those who thinks it meant every state had a right to its own militia; i.e., National Guard unit or units. But, while a huge portion of our population agree with me, it is not the prevailing view, and that I must accept.
If this nation finds itself in all out war again, everyone will soldier up and receive automatic weaponry. In the meanwhile, we need to attack the problem of the crazies who want to mow down as many innocents as possible. We need to protect our peacetime citizenry.
Guns kill. Guns kill faster than fists, knives, other weapons.
Imagine those little First Graders all in a row and holding hands as that young man sprayed back and forth with that automatic rifle with enough bullets for it to kill the whole school. Thank God he heard the sirens of the police approaching.
If our congress could see a film of those little boys and girls holding hands as they died, perhaps they would give the NRA the finger and vote for LIFE!
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Marypage where did you hear he mowed them down - the reports I read say they were shot one by one.
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I heard he moved right along the line with the automatic firing like crazy and some of the little ones had more than one bullet in them. I call that mowing them down.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/16/nation/la-na-connecticut-shooting-20121216
In this one, the coroner said ALL of the children had been hit from three to eleven times with bullets. I still call that mowing them down.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/connecticut-school-shooting-medical-examiner-faced-grim-task/story?id=17982784
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From the Chicago Sun-Times:
"We are dismayed by this. We would have expected that the horror of 20 first-graders being mowed down might have stirred a far greater demand for stricter gun control. The fact that it did not is perhaps proof of the effectiveness of propaganda by the NRA, which last year spent 10 times more money on lobbying than every gun control group combined, according to the New York Times."
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hunt-motive-sandy-hook-elementary-shooting-article-1.1220914
In the above site you will find these words:
"The Connecticut mass murderer used an assault rifle to slaughter his 26 victims at a school, spraying dozens of bullets into a helpless group of first-graders and staff, officials said Saturday.
The grisly details of killer Adam Lanza’s gory rampage emerged one day after the shooter unleashed the second-deadliest school killing in U.S. history. The tiny victims were riddled with as many as 11 bullets. All were shot multiple times."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hunt-motive-sandy-hook-elementary-shooting-article-1.1220914#ixzz2JaBNvU9R
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I have mixed feelings about gun control. I don't think any laws would stop criminals and "crazies" from getting their hands on guns--just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get them. My ddh was in law enforcement and had an assortment of guns locked in cabinets. When he died, I got rid of them as I never liked them and didn't want them in the house, but there are too many out there that can easily be obtained illegally. I really don't think any law will stop that.
Sally
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Nevertheless, if that demented young man had done everything in just the same way, and all those around him had reacted in just the same way, EXCEPT he had had no assault weapon, but instead just a regular rifle, by the time the police had answered the 911 call and the sirens were wailing down the roads leading to the elementary school and he shot himself rather than be arrested, there would not have been so many dead children. Without the assault weapon firing away in speedy staccato, he would have had to shoot off one bullet at a time and often reload. He could not have killed so many, given the same exact scenario but no assault weapon.
Assault weapons belong to the military and the police. One of the people testifying before the Congress yesterday was a big city chief of police. He wants those assault weapons banned to the public. Only in this country are manufacturers allowed to make this type of weapon and sell it to the general public. Everywhere else, it is banned.
Civilians have no reason to kill a crowd of people.
By the way, I mean no disrespect. I believe in listening to everyone's opinion.
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There was a shooting here in a Atlanta middle school today. One student shot another student in the back of the head,luckily it only grazed him.
A 9th grade boy committed suicide over the weekend. His fathers car was in the garage and he got the gun from the glove compartment. He was in my sons class. No one knows why. But more then likely if there wasn't easy access to the gun it may not have happened. I'm sure his father will never forgive himself.
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As long as we have assault weapons in the hands of the police and other national law enforcement we will have criminals feeling the need to match power with power so I do not see we will ever get rid of them - if we had an attitude about criminal misbehavior like in Britain, where the police only recently started to carry any arms and they only have assault weapons in the hands of their swat teams, but that is not our history.
My daughter would like to see just stopping the manufacturing of assault weapons - nice idea however, what do soldier do being less armed than other nations - I just think we are in a new world and have to come up with other answers -
I also think that there is something in the psyche of men that has not been explored because long before there were assault weapons there had been schoolchildren murdered - like the guy who set dynamite in a school in Minnesota or Michigan - someplace like that and killed 52 children. Even Whitman killed 13 from the UT tower after killing his parents and did not use an assault weapon.
I think we have to decide what we want to fix - just the idea we do not like assault weapons or the problem of guys going berserk and mass killing - they've been doing it for a long time.
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Mass murders... there must be something terribly wrong inside their brains.. I can only think of one woman who tried to kill a lot of children and that was some years ago in I think Chicago..not successful.. Women kill, but for them it seems to be their own children, which I find horrifying.. Also the cases where a woman kills her children to keep them from her husband. That is a very twisted human..
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Steph...I agree...and I think there must be a special circle of hell for the women who put their "boyfriends" above their children. We've had some horrific tales of sexual child abuse (long term) and then murder of little girls whose mothers thought the "live-in" scum were more important than their little ones. The three men are finally in jail...but the mothers have gotten off scot-free, as far as official punishment. Yes, I hope they're living their own hell, but they didn't care before...so not sure how those twisted minds work who think a man is so (*&^ important in their lives.
Grrrrr!!
jane
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As long as we have assault weapons in the hands of the police and other national law enforcement we will have criminals feeling the need to match power with power so I do not see we will ever get rid of them.
Are we supposed to blame law enforcement for the gun problem we have in this country? Maybe and I say maybe if we had kept the assault weapon ban instead of letting it expire there would be less on the streets but congress let it expire. We have so much out there that we will never be able to change that now. But to sit back and say this won't work or that won't work is the wrong thing to do.
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Interesting that you see blame - I see a lopsided system that allows some to have the power and others to become dependent upon them - that reminds me too much of nations with coups where the army or police are part of the government to control people - I also see law enforcement can't even use constraint with pepper spray or tazers and FBI who shoot kids or folks in the mountains because they are trigger happy with no clear understanding for example that kids get up before the sun to feed cattle on their land before they go to school... which means they would be perfectly happy shooting to death someone who did cross the border and that is who we want to be capable of carrying assault weapons and only them - this is not in keeping with a nation carved out of a wilderness and where there is freedom with room for an independent life.
Why are we not this upset about removing cars from the road - we have far more children dead each year and far more teens killing with a vehicle than all the gun deaths in this country. We condemn places where kids learn to shoot but not places where kids learn to drive. Are we talking about stopping the killing or only a certain kind of killing - removing a means of killing needs to be across the board or else there will always be a group with more power and with power among some becomes as in WWII when German soldiers without an officer demanding certain behavior or even a Sargent these soldiers carrying their guns, feeling their power assaulted anyone in their way. We know this is a problem in prisons now, where guards use their powerful status and treat prisoners less then human. And this is what is suggested for this nation - turn the nation into a gulag.
I too wish assault weapons did not exist just as I wish nuclear bombs did not exist - but they do - there is a great book about taking care of yourself that to push that would make more sense - Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected by Rory Miller a retired police officer. That we can do something about right now - and no I am not willing to give up any more of my freedom to fear - fear changed flying forever, and thank god for the downturn in the economy forcing folks to look with compassion at each other rather than the kind of isolating judging of everyone that was encouraged after 9/11
This nation was founded using guns - this state when it was a nation was created using guns - I agree there were no assault weapons as we know them - there are many inventions that make us un-comfortable and there are duel uses for what was not imagined when they were developed, from assault weapons to drugs, that help some and were used by others as recreation, from alcohol that was safer to drink than water that became for some an addiction with all the implications, from bombs and guns to assure victory on the battle field to folks using them to kill what and who ever is in their way that is not abiding with what they want - as to the mass murders there is still no effort discussed or found where the mind of these folks are to commit these horrendous acts.
As of now we do not even know if getting assault weapons off the street would be enough to stop mass murders - but then again, what are we trying to solve - are we saying we are content with mass murders continuing as long as guns that we do not like are no longer sold knowing that there will be these guns in the hands of a few and those who want them will simply get them from another nation and sell them secretly. I know I would like to have a better understanding of what sets someone off to indiscriminately kill many - what change will really make that difference.
Here is the link to Rory Miller's book sold on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594392137/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
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Mental health is a hard hard subject.. What sets one person off and not another.. Why is it almost entirely young white males..or older white males who were in the army... Is there a way to head them off before it starts.. Mass murder is a very complicated set of rules.. It would be great if everyone had a little mark on their heads that made you able to look and know if they were sane or not, but that is certainly not going to happen.. Its like I would love a shot to be given to all 10 yo girls that keeps them from pregnancy until they are 21, but that's not going to happen either.
I don't dislike guns, although I wont have them in my house. I dislike however the attitude that guns make me powerful and I carry them to make sure no one disrespects me ( hate that word, but oh my the current teens love it)
Guns made this nation, but reason and intellect put together the constitution and compromise was how they did it.
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The VA reports that TWENTY-TWO (22) of our veterans of these dreadful wars we are sending our children out to fight are committing suicide every day. Every day. Twenty-two of them.
154 every week.
660 every month.
8,008 every year.
That is unacceptable. We have to stop condoning it. We have to stop sweeping it under the rug.
We have a volunteer army. It is filled with young men and women who have not been able to find paid work elsewhere. They are not noticed by most of us. Their trials and travails go without the vast majority of the public giving them one single thought.
If we went back to the draft, every household would be thinking about it constantly. "Will my son or daughter be called up?" Every voting citizen would suddenly care rather desperately whether we gather up our tools of war and send our young off to invade far off countries.
But these who come back having seen women and children killed, and their best mates blown to pieces; they are never the same again. Nor would you be. Nor would I.
So they are choosing to die. Twenty-two of them yesterday. Twenty-two of them today. Twenty-two of them tomorrow.
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I am not sure about the volunteer army aspect. Both of my sons spent time in the active army.. Both had good jobs, college educated, but felt the need to give back to this great nation. I wasn't happy abut their decisions, but I respected them.
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Granted, there are some of those, Steph. Kudos to your sons. And the young West Pointers who lead them. But bottom line, it is a volunteer army and the ranks are not what a universal draft would bring. Good, bad, or indifferent, their minds and their lives are being demolished with no happily ever after possible. What price excursions to fix things up in other cultures around the world?
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Her dad was leaving on a 2 year deployment. She was crying, and wouldn’t let go of her dad’s hand, even when he stood in line.
(http://i.imgur.com/sJf4Tiu.png)
No one had the heart to break them apart.
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and her Dad should not be leaving her for sure.. Deployment... another word for fighting for things that the countries do not want.. Democracy is not an option in most of the middle east.They love strong men.. Egypt really wants the army to be in charge..
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not much there yet... HillaryClintonOffice.com
Opened on January 31 - the news says she wants to devote her time and interest to Woman's issues.
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Not sure about how I feel about her trying again. Elizabeth Warren interests me more at this point.
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I'm with you, Steph. I'm beginning to think Hilary can do more good outside the presidency - like Bill has done. As much as I admire her and feel she would do a great job, she is such a polarizing figure, and I fear the stalemate would be even worse than it is now.
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I love Hilary Clinton, though I have been rather desperately wishing for YEARS now that she would give up those teen age locks and get a sensible Dame Judi Dench hairdo. I would vote for her in a heartbeat for President.
But, like you, the one who really, really, really turns me on is Elizabeth Warren. Never have I heard a candidate, male or female, who can answer questions with so much knowledgeable detail and so many brilliantly thought out solutions. AND she tells it like it is. What is more, I have heard so many economists on the talky talk shows giving their two bits worth and, while straying all over the boundaries of our language trying to explain what the men seem to find unexplainable, they wind up in the long run saying just what Warren can say in two minutes!
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Justice Sonia Sotomayor will be the guest of Charlie Rose on the Charlie Rose show tonight on PBS for the entire hour. I can hardly wait, as I find her so fascinating and admirable.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I admire Sotomayor, too, MaryPage. However, she's written a book that's just been released, and that's why she's showing up on so many shows recently. I'll record the show to watch later.
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I plan on reading her book.. She sounds interesting. Elizabeth Warren is an incredible woman. If any man did half of what she did, they would have been touted for President several years ago.
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Absolutely!
And Sotomayor was fabulous. The hour sped by on wings and seemed like just a few minutes long.
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I saw about 40 minutes of Charlie's show last night. I also saw Sotomayor on Booktv over the weekend. She has a wonderful use of language, almost poetic. CR's show airs first at midnight here and i'm babysitting this morning for #2 grandson, so i didn't watch the whole show. But it airs again today. I'll try to see the end of the show today. She seems to be very thoughtful in her answers, very sensible. I enjoyed hearing her.
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I watched an interview on some news show or another just recently with her. She is a very down to earth person.. An excellent choice for the Supreme court..
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Did you read that a number of state legislatures (IA, WI, etc.) are again introducing bills to make abortion more difficult - including our wonderful TN guys, with an abdominal ultrasound bill.
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WHAT IS IT?
WHAT IN THIS WORLD, ON THIS PLANET, IS IT?
WITH THESE OLD GEEZERS AND PREGNANCIES?
SCHEESCH!
AS IF THERE WERE NOT IMPORTANT MATTERS THREATENING THE WELL BEING OF THE POPULATION OF THIS HALLOWED NATION?
WHY IS ABORTION OUT THERE CONSTANTLY AS NUMBER ONE?
WHAT IS IT?
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Last year, there was a young woman in Phoenix, Arizona who showed up in hospital with Toxemia and about to go into Eclampsia. Just like Sybil in Downton Abbey, only she was 11 weeks pregnant. The fetus literally turns on the mother and the poisons collect and kill them both.
So this young mother of 4 small children at home goes to the Catholic hospital there. And there is a hurried conference with a slew of doctors and the nun who headed up the hospital. Bottom line, we either abort or watch her die. The nun said to abort. They did. The young mother went home to her husband and children and other family.
The Archbishop of the Diocese found out and excommunicated the nun and took away the Catholic credentials of the hospital.
Amazing! How over the top the rage of that bishop! The church's bottom line? The Catholic church wanted that young woman dead. Dead along with the unaborted fetus. Four young children left without their mother. NATURE wanted this fetus aborted, but the church in the person of this man wanted her dead. My very Catholic daughter who teaches in a Catholic school says she and all the nuns and female faculty there think the bishop was the wrong one.
WHAT, I ask, is this all about? Women have been aborting, naturally and with intent, for tens of thousands of years. And they will continue to do so for as long as our species exists. So WHAT is this all about?
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MaryPage - it's all about power and control!
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WHY? To what end?
What is the core principle here?
It cannot be the QUALITY of life. The church does not go all grandparenty and see to it that the unaborted babies are fed. Are clothed. Are sheltered in beds of their own. Are loved and cared for and taught.
What is their point? Their basic belief? That every fertilized egg is a soul that must be born in order to be saved and see God? Where in the world did they get THAT notion? That scenario? Know they not that millions of women have an egg (or more) fertilized every single day and that frequently that egg cannot eventually find a safe little nesting spot to plug into in the wall of the uterus they pass through on their way from the fallopian tube and they head right straight to the toilets of this planet and into nothingness? Are those billions of aborted by nature souls all roasting in hell with the dread punishment of never seeing the Face of God, through no fault of their own? I mean, these fertilized "souls" don't even have brains.
There ya' go! There's the problem!
These old men in skirts running the Church lack brains, as well!
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On top of which at this time in history to encourage the no holds bared on births is a crime against humanity - our earth cannot take it - I was shocked to hear on a nature program with Attenborough that in 1979 there were 4 million folks on this planet and now there are well into 7 million - that is roughly a million people ever decade - nature is feeling the pinch as more of the land that supports animals is disappearing - the oceans are being harvested to extinction and we have global warming. We talk about green it is time to think green related to population explosion. Even the early Christian Church has a greater time for an abortion by several weeks than what was decided during Roe.
All this because Pope Paul stopped the Papal Commission on Population Control, Family and Birth Control from being included in Vatican II and instead issued Humanae Vitae
http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Point-Control-Commission-Humanae/dp/0824514580.
Now they are back to attacking contraception with a force to weaken the emotions of those trying to follow the teachings of the church and yet, couples know they cannot bring more children into the world - the idea that women can simply stay home in order to care for more children is sending thousands of families into poverty that means more taxes on the rest of us to support the programs that is the safety net for the poor. Plus, we have the cost of additional resources a community provides like sewers, electricity, schools and additional land and water for the growth of food products.
This is beyond the battle for a woman's subjugation to her uterus and as the church defines the purpose of marriage to satisfy a man's desires - this is about bringing all of us down as we struggle to give dignity to this added population as we loose our capitol resources and the heritage and safety valve of our land and water.
What we do not consider is this attitude sifts down to street kids - we may not have a large population of kids living on their own in the streets like many in the Philippines, South American and even Eastern Europe but these kids get pregnant - at least the Philippines has just this past fall approved Birth Control while the Bishop in the area is retaliating with continued instruction, telling the people the evils of contraceptives.
This is a nation that has police boats patrolling the surrounding waters protecting the fish that still remain since the ocean that used to be its economic source is fished out as families fished to feed the burdening size families. The typical size family is 11 to 12 children. One island in the chain legally is separate and PBS had a documentary showing the success that birth control brought to families who can now afford to allow their children to attend school - and this was the Dad's talking about the benefits.
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NO! NO! NO! BARBARA!
You have written Million. The word is actually
BILLION
We are on the road to 9 Billion people in our lifetime. Millions will die of starvation. Millions more will go on the rampage to get to where there is food and water.
But the old men in the Vatican putter on, making of women nothing but basins in which to grow ever more and more and more babies.
Excuse me?
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I blame Paul for all this. He really disliked women and wanted them barred from everything in the church.The church was meant for men with women as slaves. I can remember as an early teen being told by the minister in confirmation classes, that women were not good enough to be ministers.. or deacons. They were meant to listen to their fathers and husbands etc. I thought it was hooey then and I still do.
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Well, the world is beginning to see. To SEE.
My third and last husband, the Love of My Life, was such a brilliant and kind and modest and thoughtful person, and he was completely and totally at ease with the idea that the male and the female of our species were equal in every way. Different, yes; and oh, how he loved those differences! But he truly admired and respected my brains and opinions and thoughts and ideas and talents, etc. Always. Every moment of every day. He did not own a misogynistic cell in his body.
I do not believe there was ever a better man taking breath, but some now seem to be following his perception patterns. 51% of our adult world is Female. Fifty-one per cent. Where women are not allowed to go to school, to venture forth in public, to have a say in the running of the community around them, there is NO progress. None. Some men are actually taking this in and beginning to try to adopt measures to improve things. Well, they must, or there is no hope for our species other than war and death and destruction. Hatred and fear and extremism. Brutality and beastilism.
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I agree on Paul but I also cut him some slack - his followers were mostly Greek and true to form most of the inroads made by Catholics that still holds true today is to wrap their traditions into this new concept of God - just like we learn that many of our holy days were originally days celebrating harvest or mid winter or planting and many of the revered holy people of the various areas became saints with all the trappings of a cult following surrounding their special day. Well Paul wrapped the story of Jesus and Christianity around the traditions the Greeks would not abandon which included their concept of a woman's place in the home and in society.
The one I have more problems with giving any slack to is St. Augustine - here he lived free and easy with a women for I think it is 20 years - they had children together and all the time his mom - Saint Monica is not only aloud telling him not to marry but praying days and years on end for him to go back to his roots as a Christian and become a leader in the church. And so what does he do - he abandons this women and his children - takes up writing and becomes one of the most influential theologians to become one of the original Doctors of the Church and his writings are filled with disparaging attitudes about women - except he would not have known the myth but making women sound like the Lorelei's to the detriment of man. Its his attitude and writings that seem to have hung on and became the bedrock of thinking for the Curia to this day. This Church, as many a liberal Bishop like Sydney's Auxiliary Bishop Geoffrey Robinson tell us, has never discussed or even understood sex.
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Except they are experts on raping little boys.
And if you are reported on, then you get sent off to be a fresh face as priest at another church. One where they don't know you. Yet.
But if you are a female, and you have an abortion, BURN HER AT THE STAKE! STONE HER TO DEATH IN PUBLIC.
Does anyone besides me remember that Frank Sinatra's mother paid for his Catholic Parochial School tuition and uniforms by being a back street abortionist?
What an Alice In Wonderland world we inhabit. It is with a great deal of relief that I admit to being glad I will not much longer have to cope with it.
By the way, I sound anti Catholic. I am not against the Faith. I now believe it all a fable, but I was Roman Catholic for 10 years of my life and raised some little Catholics, only one of whom still practices that religion, and I went 2 years to my beloved Sisters of the Visitation and had both an aunt and a sister-in-law who were nuns. I admire the women of the church totally and some few of the men. Do you think they poisoned Pope John XXIII?
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I doubt it - and also raping is not sex and raping kids is not sex - it is about power - plus no one ever has good sex with kids - again it is about power to get kids to do what you want that you have to use different tactics to get an equal to do what you want. But there is no discussion or information much less training about sex even in a seminary where they are supposed to learn to be confessors and offer support to parishioners.
There are two sides to the church and we forget that there is the political side with a hierarchy that is part of a system that is a monarchy with it rules and secretary of state and ambassadors etc all within the Curia - then there is the spiritual side that is most often found flourishing in monasteries and convents. Most monasteries are not within the Bishopric - they have their own more simple hierarchy with often an abbot running the show. Most monasteries are like a large company is to the US - they get permission to start the company and must comply with the law which for the church is called Dogma but they are independent of the Bishops which includes the Bishop of Rome called the Pope.
I agree MaryPage, for most of us our spiritual life is not practiced as a political expression of loyalty as it once was in Europe - Today our challenge is to sort the two sides of the church as an ongoing process. There are many active theologies under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church but only the Curia and Bishops represent the official face of the religion.
With so much new scientific exploration some of the newer theologies are fascinating like the Activation of Energy being the source of God - de Chardin started that line of reasoning - and Karl Jaspers theology of Religion particularly Christianity without Myth - Sister Barbara Fiend continues in this line of thinking writing that we may need new metaphors and symbols to further our dualistic ways of understanding and interpreting reality and of naming our God and Hans Urs von Balthasar a Swiss Theologian wrote about the Cosmic Christ and get this...Meditations on the Tarot.
As varied as many a college level curriculum with other theologians even considering God and our need to express devotion is all tooled into our brain - all of these folks worked in a monastery or convent or university setting. Not in some local parish or in rooms shared by the local Bishops. And yet, their inquiry and writing is followed by many in the church today.
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Hmm, St. Augustine.. Now that was interesting since I am not catholic and did not know his back story. The saints of early Rome were peculiar to put it mildly. My course is covering what is called heresies..But I suspect politics had a lot to do with it even early in Christianity.
I have been following the rape stories out of South Africa.. They don't seem to say..Are these black women being raped by white men or black men?? or white women.. There is no way that rape is part of any culture. It is power and rage.. and castration always struck me as a good answer..
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Castration may be fitting punishment for those who rape, but it does not solve the problem of the mindset of those who dismiss rape as something men will do and women are asking for.
But until we figure out how to change the mindset, you've got another vote for castration here.
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Steph Catholic or not any philosophy class includes St. Augustine - he had a huge influence on Rene Descartes, and is credited for his belief that humans are uniquely capable of deductive truth and logic as well as, he wrote about 'time' being something in the human mind as we grapple with reality. He was one of the hero philosophers during the Medieval ages.
His big personal dilemma was in accepting free will and the accepting responsibility for our actions because he believed in predestination - he was alive in the 4th century and even the Bible had words about predestination so he came by his dilemma with just cause. (e.g. Those whom He predestined He also called; and those whom He called He also justified; and those whom He justified He also glorified. -Rom. 8:30)
He also has doubts that man can behave with 'right' morals - he believes we are born with a stain (original sin) that keeps God at arms length and prevents people from living a moral life. And so most of his writings it based on the assumption that he must justify why someone should be not so much right minded as behave righteously. In other words legally.
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Since he was not involved in the books or religious beliefs that were deemed heresy , he is not covered in the course. I am struggling with gnostics just now.
I read yesterday that in South AFrica, the common male belief is women wont say 'Yes", so you rape them. That is absolutely disgusting. Anyone who really uses that as an excuse should be locked away forever.
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A brilliant blog from "Nurse Clio" on third graders thinking about equal pay and why do we have to label people? It's a little long, but easily skimmed, especially since i assume you all wld agree w/ what she says..........
http://nursingclio.org/2013/02/12/what-i-learned-in-third-grade/
The issue of our frequently stereotyping or labeling people is thought provoking. Every time i start to state such, a little voice in my head asks me "do you need to say this?" :) But when voicing a stereotype we use a shorthand in communication. If i say "she's a typical looking Swede" you know exactly what she looks like without my having to describe her features, even though all Swedes are not tall, blonde and blue-eyed. I really have problems with the labeling words that are mentioned in the article. I caution the younger generation is my family about the words they use about their children. My DIL comments about how OCD her 3 yr old can be. Of course, he doesn't get it now, but at some point he may and kids tend to become what they are labeled. The 3rd grader who thinks of herself as a big mouth probably won't for many years be able to see that as a positive. Although in this story, she is using it as a positive. i think her mother probably wasn't. I cringe a little when i hear comedians using labels and stereotyping, even tho i may laugh at what they are saying. I guess it's called being a thoughtful human, confusing, but thoughtful. :)
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Excellent!
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The Violence Against Women Act passed the Senate today -- now on to the House??? My senator, a doctor and Republican, voted against it even though we have an Indian Reservation here in Wyoming. Go figure???
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our congress does not vote on whether the bills are good or bad, just what their stupid party tells them to. They should be ashamed.
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Both of our Republican senators voted FOR the Defense of Women Act. We were surprised, but pleased.
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Congratulations to them, Mary!
I'm calling my Congressman, John Runyon, once to ask Spkr Boehner to bring VAWA to the floor for a vote, once to tell him to vote for it, once to tell him to ask Boehner to bring the gun reform bill to a vote, once to tell him to vote for it.
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(http://brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf74c53ef017d410407c7970c-350wi)
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Rubio is the poster boy for conservative except for any votes allowing more and more Cubans to come here..So he was a no..His speech was funny, but not quite true. His house in Miami is for sale.They are all moving to DC.. I guess he will use his parents as his voting address. The man is consumed with being the first Cuban President. I can certainly hope not and will work actively against him if he runs.
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I have nothing against Rubia other than having a different perception of how things should be done best for the country, and I know little about him, but there is one ugly thing that sticks in my mind, and it is this. He went around telling publicly one story about how his family came here and it turned out to be a lie. Wasn't it that he claimed they were refugees from Castro and the Communists? And it turned out they were not refugees at all and had come here before that time? I cannot remember the details, but what stuck in my craw at the time and is still there is that he Started Out With A Lie! That really, really turns me off. I could never feel any trust in someone who did that.
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Rubio's speech was filled w/ irony for me. He kept talking about people being dependent on govt. Is he not dependent on goverment for his livlihood? Then he talked about how he could not have gone to college w/ out govt aid and how medicare has helped his parents!?! Is he living in some alternative universe? It certainly had no logic for me.
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Yes Rubio started out with lies, but in Miami, you need to be a refugee to count..
Molly Ivans. found an old book of hers yesterday while putting out the books for the book sale.."Shrub".. She was a very perceptive woman who cloaked a great intelligence in laughter.
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Here is our history as women - some of this was the last vestiges of taboos that were common when I was growing up.
http://www.bartleby.com/196/40.html
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Will save the link.Today is another book sale day and I must walk dogs, get some breakfast, etc. even maybe make sure the world has not blown up last night.
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Thank you, Barbara. That is quite marvelous and I have sent it to my 5 daughters and 13 granddaughters.
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mark
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Interesting chapter Barb. I thought as i read it that today many, men and women, are relieved when she gets her period. :)
I do believe that some of men's fear and aggressiveness against women is an historical memory of the wonder of women giving birth and noone understanding how that happened. I'm not completely convinced about the idea of "memory" being passed down thru generations genetically, but i'm willing to speculate about it. Maybe some men still today have a jealousy that women have the power to give birth, even if they understand their part in it.
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I note that the Red Tent used this as a backdrop on the story.. Thank heaven in a good part of the world, this is gone.. I guess I was odd, but I never seemed to have any of the premenstrual nonsense, that women talk of today. I had problems during menopause and still do with night sweats and mood changes, but I learned to deal mostly.. so I am not a good judge of a lot of the problems. I think that many men think of our moon changes as mysteries..
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even maybe make sure the world has not blown up last night.
Steph, if you have to ask, it hasn't. ;)
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Ah but it is so hard to tell some days if the world is still even sane..
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
It isn't.
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Good news! CSPAN is broadcasting a series on First Ladies. It looks like it will be wonderful. If it is as good as their president's series, i will be watching every program. Sorry, i don't know how to shorten the link.
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=zgvcxqbab&v=001F21jA-5PIHYgVSoD5tcnzekw_tDmy8tn-HgCz3L1lA9VN6wpGmWvj9KMUm9ZlE_orIG6OkmL837R_LUGiDpA42iA9XY5PppLf0_RKojtewY72SxelJvThxCLMRcfkn_ei7nZAlfNt07g0jYXbdq0fbnTnCC01uSTnw5Ttxqx-crpLsIXAa5-WkgnvlW2SSYWr-YXNodTudau-t-TxilOdOvV5AD8IX5l
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too long for my computer to pick up, but I will check the local CSPAN.
I have read several books that picked up stories on the different styles of first ladies. It has changed enormously.
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Thank you so much! I was able to check it out and I have marked my calendar for every Monday night through June 10. Fun!
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Here are two sites with books about first ladies. I read the two volumes by Carl Anthony and liked them.
http://www.amazon.com/First-Ladies-Carl-Sferrazza-Anthony/dp/0688125751
http://www.firstladies.org/books_carl_anthony.aspx
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I just noticed booktv is presenting an author who wrote a bio on Martha Washinton at noon today, and at 1:00 a book about Rosa Parks.
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TUESDAY night at 8:00 P.M. on PBS
WOMEN WHO MAKE AMERICA
It has taken eight years to make Our movie. Don't miss it.
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I have a reminder set.
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It took a while to find it, but I finally did. The First Ladies series on CSpan runs on Mondays from 9-10:30 p.m.ET (with repeats from 11:59pm-1:30 a.m). That it's a 90-minute program is important to know if you're recording it (which I'll probably be doing).
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hmm, not quite sure I will watch, may record it or see if Netflix will have it sooner or later.. I watch The Exotic Marigold Hotel yesterday. Had ordered it on Netflix.. What fun..Except I could not bear to live there. Could not deal with the noise and all those people.. Oh me.. I get very very upset in crowds now.. Am short and hate being pushed. But a hotel that catered to older people in a city.. as permanent guests. That part sounded like fun.. I would love it for Charleston,Savannah,Asheville,, lots of southern towns..
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Actually, I think we will like the First Lady series that begins tonight, Steph. I may, of course, be mistaken; but everything I have heard and read leads me to believe it will be first quality pictorial and verbal history.
As for the Tuesday night one time only show, I KNOW that will please and thrill us. PBS tomorrow night.
I found the show last night disgustingly misogynistic, what with the tasteless jokes and the song "We Saw Your Boobs!" Also a lot of racial jokes. I rooted for the women in the audience to get up and depart, and then the Jews, and then the blacks. But it just did not happen. Can't upset those who butter the bread, I suppose.
Anyway, locker room dirty talk aside, I enjoyed the gowns and the jewels and the incomparable Streisand singing The Way We Were in honor of Marvin Hamlisch. Beyond beautiful, and she did it so privately and in such good taste.
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First Ladies got shifted to CSPAN2 - AKA Booktv!
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Cannot find CSPAN2 on my cable list.. Hmm. Will check the specials list, but I would guess that I don't have it.
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The Martha Washington program was excellent. If you didn't see it or want to see additional info and videos- especially about Mount Vernon - go to CSPAN.org. They will probably reshow it this week, especially on the weekend. I was somewhat upset that they switched the program to CSPAN2, because i think many who have only basic cable get only CSPAN1.
Last night Charlie Rose had Gloria Steinam and the producer of The Makers: Women who Make America on his show. You probably can see it on PBS.org, or Charlie Rose.org. It was an interesting conversation.
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Jean, I appreciated your heads-up about the channel change last night. I have the series planned to record, but I got there in time to change the channel. I wonder if the rest of the series will be on #1 or #2.
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I missed it Looking foeward to "The Makers" tonight (Tuesday) on PBS.
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I was surprised by the format of the First Ladies show on C-Span 2 last night. Lucky me! For once, a channel I need is actually in my line up!
But I enjoyed it immensely. I had not KNOWN that Patricia did not exist as a name in the 18th century and that Pat or Patsy was the nickname for a Martha, just as Peggy or Meg is the nickname for Margaret. Thus George Washington ALWAYS referred to his wife as "Patsy!" Who knew?
Lots of little details that were fascinating, not the least of which was that our first First Lady was a beautiful young woman!
I did get annoyed when the moderator kept referring to Martha as having been in or part of The White House, when I knew, as each of you must know if you think about it, that The White House did not even exist as yet. The Historians kept correcting her, nicely. The one finally pointed out that not only had The White House not been built or thought of back at that time, but Washington, D.C. just barely existed as a place!
I do so much look forward to tonight's WOMEN WHO MADE AMERICA.
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Makers:Women who Make America was wonderful! I'm proud that i was a part of that history.
Jean
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I was SO enraged during the 1991 hearings about Clarence Thomas, with all those male senators horrified at the thought that one of their huge prerogatives as men, i.e. the right to sexually tease women in the workplace and anywhere encountered with the hope of seducing them, would be publically challenged as a reason to disqualify them as members of the club who rule us, make our laws, interpret those laws, and rule upon the constitutionality of those laws, that I made a scrapbook. This scrapbook is now over 20 years old and of enormous interest and value.
It is a large loose-leaf notebook full of plastic pages in which I inserted every newspaper clipping, cartoon, comic comment, magazine article and photo I could find on the subject.
Did you know that TWO MORE women came forward to testify as to exactly the same type of experiences with Clarence Thomas, and those men of the senate refused to call them before them and allow them to be heard on the record?
From tonight's program, you learned that the women of the House of Representatives had to fight to get them to hear Professor Anita Hill!
Anita Hill has been vindicated, and my scrap book would thrill you to pieces. But hey, get this: Clarence Thomas has held his seat on the Supreme Court Lo these 20+ years, and can be there for LIFE if he so chooses. So being a dirty lecher is still OK whenever you can do it without being seen or heard by anyone but the victim of your assault.
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He bothers me on so many levels.. So does his wife.. I am not quite sure that justice for life is a good idea.. but the founding fathers did not specify..
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I'm watching Alex Wagner talk to Sen Claire about the Repubs stonewalling the Violence Against Women Act. Phyllis Schafly said the women's movement focused on women as victims. Does fighting against your own oppression stipulate that you identify as "victim?" or as a "fighter against victimization?"
This article was in today's Nurse Clio blog. Sorry if the title is offensive, but the situations she addressed are unbelievable in 2013, and at UNC!?!
http://nursingclio.org/2013/02/27/wtf-no-seriously-wtf/
On a brighter note, Mary, did you see Vivian Stringer had her 900th win last night? (She's the coach of the Rutgers women's basketball team and a favorite of Mary and mine.)
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I hadn't seen that, Jean (about C. Vivian), and John hadn't mentioned it. Thanks for letting me know. She's definitely one of the best!
And, BTW, I think the title of the article you gave the link to is not only appropriately named, but possibly named very conservatively. ::)
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Agree!!!
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I'm proud to have been part of that movement, too, in a small way.
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I worked hard for it. I still own the first copy of MS, and my twin first cousin, who died in 1994, had an article in it.
I marched in every single Pro-Choice demonstration held in Washington, D.C. Have all the buttons to prove it. I marched in the Million Moms march and a number of others. I worked tirelessly for the ERA, and still feel numb with disbelief.
Oh well; we have come a long way, but hey hey, not far enough. There is still a lot of hatred of women out there, and most of it comes from the fundamentalist Christian churches run by men. Make no mistake about it. From the beginning until just before I retired, I was a member of NOW. I demonstrated at a local clinic when I lived in Virginia. Demonstrated against the anti-abortion demonstrators, that is. I am too old for all that now, and too poor to support it. But I have such a huge hope that this generation will not get slack about it. So much remains to be done. With women 51% of the population, we should hold 51% of the elected offices so there can be real, true representation. Oh, and in 1977 I attended a Conscious Raising course. I think it was 10 weeks, or maybe it was ten sessions. I remember so well a young woman who wept and wept as she relived being raped and reporting it to the local police and they did not believe her. I was mesmerized and devastated.
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I marched for choice and against Viet Nam.. Women simply do not win against some of the very evangelical churches and many women in those churches are their own worst enemies. ERA still needs to be, but probably wont in our generation.. But I did see on the NYTimes yesterday that the House is reconsidering the violence against women act.. A lot of protests and they are moving slowly, but at least considering.
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I wish rather desperately that History was a must take subject from our earliest days onward and that teachers did not wait until college to tell something of the truth to students, but that they drew comparisons and connected the dots from Elementary School on.
Some things have just never entered folks minds. They are born and they die, maybe at age 94 or upwards, and it never occurs to them HOW they came to think the way they do and have the traditional attitudes they do, all mentally and emotionally barricaded in their own cultures as they are.
For instance, the carrot on the stick: Be Brave and Go Forth and Fight for Your Own and The Faith and you will, if killed, go instantly to: Valhalla, Paradise, Heaven, Nirvana, Elysium, The Kingdom, you fill in the blank. Whether it is Onward Christian Soldiers or Viking Berzerkers or Jewish Zealots or Muslim Jihadists or stone age female raiders; men were all juiced up to Believe in instant eternal reward if they would just go out and Fight!
And it seems to me they have very few among them who has ever caught on to the fact they are being fed a yarn that is thousands upon thousands of years old (the Greeks were going to be hoisted up to Mount Olympus and become gods!) and pure baloney. And they still FALL for it! So pitiful!
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And in the same way, we women have not caught on to the way we are being used as part of a huge hoax to convince men they are cleansed of their sins!
Oh yes, the Sisterhood caught on some years back; but most of us don't have a clue.
For the same amount of time men have been conned into dying for whatever reason their leader or leaders wish them to fight and die, women have been Blamed for distracting men and destroying their souls! Or trying to. Temptation resisted is glory for the man, but temptation yielded to is THE FAULT OF THE WOMAN. Go figure!
But they are still at this very same game. In our Senate. In our House of Representatives. And a woman cannot get pregnant if it is REAL rape. Therefore, if she does get pregnant, obviously she consented to the union of bodies. In fact, she most certainly ASKED for it! Men are Off The Hook!
It is the means men invented eons back in Time to make themselves blameless and women creatures of low value harboring Satan in their souls! A woman can curse their souls, but their innate virtue can give them full redemption, while the women should burn for their transgressions! For trying to harm good saintly males!
I cannot tell you how many times, probably fifty or more, in my lifetime of working, because I worked from age 17 to age 75, and now I am still working, but in the family and for no wages, men would approach me on the sly when absolutely no one could see or hear them and say something dirty to me or try to touch me inappropriately or show me some picture or ask me to join them to listen to a dirty recording or tell me a filthy joke, all with the idea that this would titillate me and set me up for them to _____ whatever. Always, always, always it was carefully done so they could totally deny any complaint I might make, were I so to do.
That is why I knew instantly that Anita Hill was telling the truth. Her descriptions of his behavior were step by step and line by line identical to my own experiences.
And when you have children to support, as I did, you have even more reason than the one she gave of wanting to advance and get promoted in the job: that is, you HAVE to feed your children. So you resist like mad and make all KINDS of excuses, but you hang in there and try to simulate friendship.
I also encountered this in my neighborhoods. The husbands of some of my closest and dearest friends amazed me by their clumsy attempts at seduction! I never told my friends, but it was very demeaning and painful for me.
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Our own her-stories are interesting and important.
(oh, Alex Wagner just said the House has passed the VAWA, i don't know what version it was, have to look for that.)
My parents were from farm families and we lived on a farm until i was two. My oldest sistr and her husband were farmers. I think in farm families, because everybody's bodies and brains are needed as part of the economic unit, that they tend to be more sexual egalitarian, if they are smart. Even though my Mother's family were farmers, her oldest sister, Mabel - for whom i was named, altho i was never called Mabel - and my Mother, who was born in 1898- who was the youngest - both went to Teacher's College. So i had a tradition of women working outside the household in the early 20th century. Also, my Father always said "You don't need to get married." Now, all three of us were able to go to college because it was in our town. None of us could have afforded to go if we had had to live on campus.
My husband says i was always a feminist, we met in college in 1962. My maternal family have been strong Scotch-Irish Presbyterians, including the four brothers who came to the colonies in the mid 1700s. Two of them started Presbyterian churches. Even though i went to church every week of my growing up life, it never really took for me, i guess i got my Dad's genes in that area. :) But i was in my teens while the Civil Rts activities were going on in the 50s and the ministers we had were very strong in their support. I got a strong lesson in equality from the church and i got to be a leader in many activities in the church, so i owe a lot of my confidence in speaking up to my experience in the church.
As an adult i was an exec director at the county YWCA, a very feminist organization, in the late 70s. We turned it into a "women's center." In the 80s i went to work in th Equal Opprtunity Office for Dept of Army, probably the only office i could have worked in in Dept of Army. :) I was the Federal Women's Program Manager, meaning i educated women and supervisors that women could work in non-tradtional jobs, and trained military and civilians about sexual harrassment, and facilitated the solving of problems for civilian women in her workplace.
Also during the 80s, i was co-chair of the Alice Paul NOW chapter and was on the founding Board if the Alice Paul Institute.
So, as you can see, my DH is right, i have always been a feminist, actually, i've always been a humanist. Equality for Everbody!
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Sounds to me as though you have enjoyed a good life. Lovely to hear.
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I have had a good life, not without its trials and tribulations, but there's been nothing horrible or overly dramatic. I've had good opprtunities where i've had the chance to learn about many things - my favorite thing to do! But i have also been willing to try those new things, and use those opportunites. My biological family and i are pretty stoic, so issues don't get overly heated or out of control very often. i'm the most "radical" person in my family! ;D
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I am so comforted by Senior learn. I live in an area of Florida, that is extremely conservative, evangelical, etc. This means I feel so lonely when I listen to others. Especially being a widow and hearing the other widows, who don't do huge areas of life because they are afraid of being alone.. I live my life as best I can. I go and do and travel upon occasion.. I have worked off and on most of my life. However when I had my two sons, my husband was traveling extensively in his job. We both decided that our children deserved someone available for them, so I did not work again until they went to college. I loved my life, miss my husband dreadfully and carry on with my life..
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For Babi
Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am a 1,000 winds that blow
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the sun on ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled light
I am the soft star that shines at night
Do not stand at my grave and cry
I am not there; I did not die.
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MARY ELIZABETH FRYE
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Lovely thought.
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Barb, that is the poem that I have used for many years when a friend dies.. When my husband died, and we did the balloon free message, that is what I told my children when we loosed the balloons. Just as I finished from somewhere in the meadows, a bobwhite quail called and answered me.. It felt like he had answered.
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If you didn't get to see the CSPAN program on Martha Washington last Monday, CSPAN 1 is starting it again right now 7:00EST. If you have only one CSPAN channel it's probably that one.
Jean
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I see where
Bonnie Franklin died. I loved One Day at a Time.. Her struggles seemed quite real..
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I never saw that show. I know it was quite popular.
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Like Zits in the comics today, being about all adolescent boys, much in One Day at a Time was about adolescent girls. Since we had four of them (adolescent girls) at the time the show was on, our life was frequently portrayed. We watched it all the time.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
CSPAN is pulling out the stops on women's history ths weekend. This is the anniversary of the big women's suffrage parade organized by Alice Paul on March 3, 1913 in Washington. There was a "march" this morning commemorating that event. Also, the Women's History Museum sponsored a panel, that CSPAN broadcast on CSPAN 3, about The Role of Media in the Suffrage Movement, facilitated by Eleanor Cliff. I saw it at 11:00 this morning, but they are repeating it a little before 5:30 this evening. It was an interesting discussion. I know Jill Zahnizer, who is on the panel and is writing a book about Alice Paul and my friend Roberta Francis, chair of the current push for ratifying the ERA, asks a question.
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I posted this in "fiction", but then thought some of you may be interested in both the Chiaverini fiction book and the free non-fiction ebooks about Elizabeth Eckley. She was an amazing woman, someone we should all know about, if you only read the wiki site about her, you can see that.
A friend just loaned me a Jennifer Chiaverini book, not a "quilt" book, titled Mary Lincoln's Dressmaker." Elizabeth Keckley was a real person, but, of course, this is fiction. EK bought her and her son's freedom from slavery and had become a dressmaker to many prominent women in Washington D. C. in 1860. Both of those actions tell us what an amazing woman she was. She was the designer and maker of dresses for Varina Davis, Jefferson Davis' wife before Mary Lincoln came to town. (I find it ironic that that the president of the seceding states was probably named for Thomas Jefferson.)
About 100 pages into the book, i find it is typical JC well-written prose. She uses many of the current events of the time in the story. EK's son was the son of a white man and is light enough in complexion to be able to pass as white and is therefore able to join the Union army. JC gives us a good accounting of the anxiety of any mother whose child is in combat.
At this point i would highly recommend it. Here is a Wikipedia article about EK and the Amazon page about the book.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Keckley
In following a link from the wiki article i see that EK's autobiography "Behind the Scenes", is available as an ebook for free from Goggle Books and from Amazon. Just scroll down the article to "references". Also, the second book on the "reference" list is available as an ebook for free, "Mrs Lincoln and Mrs Keckly".
http://www.amazon.com/Mrs-Lincolns-Dressmaker-Jennifer-Chiaverini/dp/0525953612
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I have read both books about Mrs. Lincoln and Mrs. Keckly - and second Mabel's recommendation.
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I had no girls, but loved to watch the behaviors.. and her struggle as a single mom.. The man who played the janitor was a funny funny man as well.
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I watched the 2nd of C-Span's series on the First Ladies last night. Abigail Adams, of course. I did not find it as fascinating as I did last week's Martha Washington show, but I believe that is because I have studied the Adamses in depth and they did not present a single fact I did not know. That being said, I did find some of the experts opinions interesting, especially one who said she felt Abigail Adam's letters prove she was well aware of the subjugation of women in her day, and that many other women of the time were, as well, and they were beginning to push back against it. Abigail certainly DID do so in her letters to John. Good on her!
To think that a woman was not allowed to publish in her own name in those days! They made much of that, repeating it several times.
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Abigail Adams was so brave so often, i find her amazing. One of the stories i can't forget from the McCullough book was her deciding to have her children vaccinated for small pox at a time when it was a relatvely new procedure. John was in Philadelphia, it was a decision she made on her own. Also, she was petrified of ocean travel and yet went to England to be w/John by herself, John was already there.
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MaryPage, I agree with you re: the program on Abigail Adams. I have read enough about the family - and her - not to have heard anything new.
I wasn't expecting a dramatization with actors but I'm not sure I really care for the scholastic interviews plus phone/text/etc. format.
However, I'll keep tuning in - at least, until they get to Mary Lincoln, about whom I've read as much as I care to know.
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I strongly dislike the phone calls in. Especially the fact that they obviously have not vetted them in advance. That man from California who was so derisive about Abigail Adams and called her a bad mother (obviously he had one!) because Charles was an alcoholic! Scheesch! If every mother of every alcoholic were to be labeled a bad mother, what a set back for common sense and biology THAT would be!
But the Historian authors and the film clips and portraits and pictures are great.
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This is the same format that CSPAN used for the Presidents' series, except that Brian Lamb went to the birth site/home place of each president and they spent more time with each subject. I like the fact that the public can comment and ask questions, that's the forte of CSPAN programming. Of course, they are sometimes going to get someone w/ an agenda, but it shows me what the country is thinking. I don't think it's possible for them to know what each person will say completely, or how they will say it and screen them out.
I thought the one about AA's fault that her son was an alcoholic gave the woman respondent a good opportunity to say that's very Freudian and Freud is very sexist. I did wish she had said more about how alcoholism runs in the family and is a genetic disease which they knew litte about and i wish that she would have emphasized more that the son did have TWO birth parents, altho John was not around much in their growing up years.
McCullough has said that Abigail keep the family afloat financially and did a very good job of it. John was away for almost 12 of the first 20 yrs of their marriage. I think she did a remarkable job, even educating one of the most intelligent/knowledgable presidents we've had.
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I have read several of the biographies of her and was so impressed with her having the children vaccinated, when it was very new and not very popular.. and with John gone.. A bright articulate woman who did literally everything in her marriage, since he like so many others at that time was totally engrossed in the forming of the nation.
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Just by chance i happened on a piece of history when Cotton Mather in the first half of the 18th century was supporting the small pox vaccinations. AA was a very good Congregationalist, so I'm sure that's where she got her opinion and her gumption to have them for the whole family.
I see there are two strong women candidates running for mayor in Los Angeles and NYC - about time! Break that glass ceiling!
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Yes, we need more women to run for office.. The odds are getting better and we are getting more and more politicians nationally.. Locally in Florida,, no.. but then not many run here, except on a local level. I must say the few in Lake county who got elected are all heavily into more and more growth.. Realtors and I cannot agree that this is a good idea.. Unlimited growth is not a good thing, but the state of Florida does not grip that.
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Growth puts money in the wallets of those promoting it. The environmental and societal endangerment for future populations is just not a consideration. Wealth trumps consideration for mere people, and always has done. One of the less pleasant facts about human civilization. Civilization! Bah humbug! Let the people be damned!
I get a queasy feeling whenever I hear "Florida" anymore. It used to mean warm sun, sandy beaches, live oak trees hung with Spanish Moss, the St. John's River and lots of other good memories. Now I think half the state is going to sink into deep holes and the other half is to be covered with the rising waters of the seas.
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MaryPage,,no no no.. Some parts of Florida are still beautiful and remote..I live on a lake and it is different every single day of life.. Florida is an odd place, no doubt about it, but the weather is still a joy in the winter.
Just think of the eastern shore, where you live and I grew up.. When I was young, it was teeny towns, lots of fishermen, etc, Now it is more and more crowded with people.. and think of the bridge. I used to take a boat over..when I was young.
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Steph, I live in Annapolis on the western shore of the Chesapeake Bay. My home is right on the bay, so I know what you mean about the water. It changes by the hour, and never fails to delight. My daughter Anne lives in Chestertown on the Eastern Shore. Also, my granddaughters Tracy and Melissa live in Easton on the Eastern Shore. When I was a teenager and attending the Hannah More Academy in Reisterstown, just north of Baltimore, quite a few of my fellow students were from the Eastern Shore (or "The Show" as it used to sound like natives called it) and that was before they put across the first span of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and they all used to go over on the Love Point Ferry. One span of the bridge was completed in 1952 and the other in 1972.
I go across every Monday to Anne's. Her husband Greg picks me up. I work in his construction business office and he brings me home a day or two later; however long it takes. I stay over with them, but I do not live there.
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All those towns I knew and loved. I grew up in a teeny little town in Delaware.. south of the canal as we say.. Wyoming, not the state, but the name of the town. Easton used to have the most marvelous hotel and restaurant.. in the 60's, it was the place to go, that and another restaurant called The Granery somewhat north of Easton. Both were delights.. I was in the Delmarva chicken cooking contest years ago several times and at least once in Easton and spent the night in the hotel. which was old and historic, but somewhat creaky.
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Probably the Tidewater Inn.
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Yes, it was the Tidewater Inn and we went back and stayed there in the mid 80's when we had come down from New England for the boat show in Annapolis. We used to go to the Sailboat one every other fall and then either go the D.C. or over to the eastern shore for a further vacation. The Inn in the 80's was in bad shape and the restaurant was a joke. Oh well in the 60's we all went over, very dressed up for dinner and loved it.
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The inn is all spruced up and posh again. And our Annapolis sailboat show still takes place the first week in October. Every year. Year in and year out. Followed by the week of the power boat show. Then we close down for the winter. Everything opens up again in May.
By everything, I mostly mean the places where you can eat outside.
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I have always loved Annapolis.. Was there again in 2008..Went to the Naval Academy, since I have a granddaughter who wanted something from there. Got her the watch cap, watched the noon parade, which I love.. Walked all over the waterfront,, then went over the bridge one day and had lunch in The Narrows, which is a favorite of ours. Met a lot of people from school there. We came from all over.
Yes, I remember the boat show was each year, but for some reason, we came every other year.. but then we were not retired and so vacations were quicker.
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THERE IS HOPE! THERE IS HOPE!
I just cannot Believe it, but there is Hope!
The Argentine has given us a new Pope, who just may be a Great one. God knows, he is not part of the Vatican Mafia! He is Francis the 1st, and he is a JESUIT! A Liberal!
While there is Life, there is Hope! I am beyond amazed!
And Joyful!
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Yes, what interested me was reading that he sold the diocesan residence...lived in an apt and took a bus to work. However, his views on woman's issues are not very liberal at all - so we shall see what we shall see - my take so far is he will fall in line with much of liberation theology that is still rampant in South and Central America regardless what John Paul did to strip away the movement.
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Did he have the authority to sell church property? I knew he refused to live in the palace, citing his strict vows of poverty as a Jesuit, but I find it difficult to believe he could sell it on behalf of the church and future archbishops or cardinals there in Buenos Aires.
Yes, I have heard he is very conservative. And goodness knows, his lineage of Italian and Latin American would enhance that image.
But the Jesuits are the only conduit I can see for real modernization of church dogma.
The church makes the claim it has remained the same for 2,000 years. But that is so untrue, and is like a falsehood they hope if they repeat long enough and enough times that people will believe it. But for 1,000 of those 2,000 years, priests could marry. And priests of the Eastern Sect of the Ukraine, who recognize the Pope in Rome and not the Patriarch in Constantinople, have ALWAYS been able to marry and have children. There was no edict against abortion or birth control until the 20th century! I could go on and on, but bottom line, I see hope for improvement even in this new Pope. If nothing else, if there are no women priests or marriages between the same sex or birth control and so forth, I think he will crack down BIG TIME on molestation of children by the priesthood and the financial scandals within the church. I think he will clean out the stables and make the Church clean and purified.
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I've been hearing this evening that he has been very vocal in criticizing the Argentine government for its positions favoring contraception, abortion in some cases, and adoptions by same-sex couples. Sounds like a lot of the same old stuff to me. Time will tell.
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I thinkhe may clean up the curia if that is possible, but I also think he sounds conservative to me. I just finished reading a mystery recently that used the differences in the catholic bible and the protestant bible to clean up some poison pen letters. interesting.
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When O'Malley came up from Florida to replace Cardinal Bernard Law in Boston he sold from the Bishop's estate of 64-acre, 45 acres of the complex to Boston College that I believe included the Bishop's 'Palace'
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But Boston College is a Jesuit institution. Therefore, he was selling a PORTION of a Catholic property from the diocese to an Order within the Church. None of the property, in other words, left the Church.
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Yes, however two separate institutions much like GM selling one of its plants to Ford both auto and both incorporated within the US or at least they were but two separate companies. There was competition for the site Boston College won - That aside I was just trying to show that the sale in Argentina was not something that required the permission of either the Pope or the Curia since the church is set up as an 'episcopal see' and is why the Pope functions as the Bishop of Rome.
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Some member of the Catholic hierarchy said today how appropriate it was to have a pope from South America, that people there had been in the Church in great numbers in the SIXTEENTH CENTURY to today!?! I think the Europeans may have been killing and torturing the people of the Carribean and the peoples of the western hemisphere who were refusing to convert to Catholicism in the SIXTEENTH century. Sadly the majority of the people who heard that statement don't know how wrong he was.
Jean
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I did read that he would not live in the palace, but rented an apartment on his own.. He is a true Jesuit in his taste for poverty.. A good thing.. But in Rome, live might get complicated. I recently read about a cardinal in Rome, who lived in a 14 room condo.. worth millions.. has many servants.. etc. I cannot believe that this is good for the priesthood..
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Bourgeois#Maryknoll_expulsion
I have been a Catholic priest in the Maryknoll community for 40 years. As a young man I joined Maryknoll because of its work for justice and equality in the world. To be expelled from Maryknoll and the priesthood for believing that women are also called to be priests is very difficult and painful.
The Vatican and Maryknoll can dismiss me, but they cannot dismiss the issue of gender equality in the Catholic Church. The demand for gender equality is rooted in justice and dignity and will not go away.
As Catholics, we profess that God created men and women of equal worth and dignity. As priests, we profess that the call to the priesthood comes from God, only God. Who are we, as men, to say that our call from God is authentic, but God's call to women is not? The exclusion of women from the priesthood is a grave injustice against women, our Church and our loving God who calls both men and women to be priests.
When there is an injustice, silence is the voice of complicity. My conscience compelled me to break my silence and address the sin of sexism in my Church. My only regret is that it took me so long to confront the issue of male power and domination in the Catholic Church.
I have explained my position on the ordination of women, and how I came to it, in my booklet: "My Journey from Silence to Solidarity."
In Solidarity,
Roy Bourgeois
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They expell a priest ("thou art a priest forever") from the Church for BELIEVING in the equality of women, but
THEY DO NOT EXPELL A PRIEST FOR RAPING A CHILD! THEY DO NOT EXPELL ANY PRIESTS FOR RAPING MANY CHILDREN.
Where oh where are their Priorities?
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Roy Bourgeois in the Catholic Reporter - http://ncronline.org/feature-series/roy-bourgeois
Various issues including sex crimes that have caused an outcry published in the Catholic Reporter
http://ncronline.org/channel/accountability
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As to the Churches self-protective reaction - right in line with every guy ever accused of a sex crime with a child - from family members to strangers. They deny - blame the victim - protect themselves from accepting responsibility and act in general as if they are the victim with as much concern for the real victim as if the child was the strong, mature one or they act as if the child does not exist other than as a law suite as if the child was nothing more than a paper trail. As sad as it is 'What's new' - yes, we especially look for a different happening and reaction because of our expectation for a religious -
We do not like to accept they are nothing but men who went through a ritual that says they are more - we give them power when we do not research for ourselves what they preach. No, I am not saying we are at fault only that we are hurt and angry because we learned we cannot trust that they are what they have told us they are. Now that our trust is dead how do we go forward. As though nothing happened? That is what they would like to see happen - if we do not attend Mass we loose but more our strike does not matter since the church is shrinking in Europe and in the US but growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and South America. And so in affect we can rail all we want but it changes nothing. Like the current or past reality or not it is what it is - now how do we deal with it.
This being a Women's Issues page I wonder why we are not reading and sharing the work of women in history whose work is not accepted by those doing philosophy therefore, is not accepted among Theologians - there is a slight nod given to Hildegarde de Bingen but there are a host of others, like Mary Astell, Simone Weil, and currently Karen J. Warren.
If we want justice and equal opportunity with equal compensation for women than focusing on our US history may not be enough - what is the UN doing and why in this group have we not read privately then shared our reactions to the book Half the Sky -
I just feel as though we should be rolling up our sleeves and doing more than grich that things are as they are - most of us can no longer march or start a movement or even be an active member of a movement - we can write letters but saying what and to whom - this being a reading site I keep thinking we could be sharing what we learn from books we are actively reading - I do not think we can take on another month long reading discussion - maybe every other month do a 2 week like Curious Minds where we can discuss our reaction to one women's issue or even to a book.
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I am extremely fond of the Curious Minds discussions.. Just long enough...Barb, I am not sure that I want to take on too many causes books.. As to women,, you could probably say the same thing about blacks.. the third world..The only people who seem to be famous, etc as a philosopher would be white males.. Ugh, but true.
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Two great articles of interest to women this week:
In NEWSWEEK March 15, 2013 (nun on the front), an article titled FRANCIS! by A.N. Wilson. I promise you, it is an eye-opener. I would give my eye teeth to quote some of it in here.
In THE NATION March 25, 2013 (half face of Muslim woman on front), an article titled The Women Who Won't Go Away by Ann Jones. Again, bare boned facts that will set your brain on fire.
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I like that idea Barbara, talking about books of women's issues and history.
Jean
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OK then, here is a list of books every woman on this planet should read or have read to her, if she is illiterate or it does not come in her language:
KABUL IN WINTER
WOMEN WHO KILL
NEXT TIME SHE’LL BE DEAD
WAR IS NOT OVER WHEN IT’S OVER
These are each and all by Ann Jones, who is a Norwegian.
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Is this the Newsweek article MaryPage - and if so what was so shocking
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/18/pope-francis-a-golden-opportunity-for-change.html
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Ok we have to watch it - received this from my sister who was a nun for 30 years and is most anxious for intelligent, as she puts it, women to realize what is happening - it appears false statements supposedly by Pope Francis has been tracked down
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/francis.asp
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Yes, that is the article, and I think accusing the Curia of murder (not once, but many times), money laundering for the mafia, and using a member of the Swiss Guards as a prostitute handed around among themselves, among other things, is pretty strong stuff.
Funny, but I have always thought John XXIII was murdered, but it never occurred to me that John Paul I was. Well, we cannot really know, can we.
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MaryPage there are many who cry out trying to pin that Pope's short time as murder - he served for 4 months not 3 weeks and he was ill when he was chosen - he was supposed to be there for a short time to give them time since there were a powerful group trying to circumvent what was being decided during Vatican II - it worked - it gave the conservatives time to regroup - as to the other yes, and in fact like most large organizations and nations (we forget the Vatican is an independent nation) if you follow the money you can learn a lot and find out where the power is located.
If you follow the money from each parish and how it is handled or mishandled and the percentage that goes to each Bishopric and then each Diocesan and Provincial house or Abby sends a percentage to the Vatican - who is in charge - how it is distributed - it tells you a lot about the government and politics of this organization. Just as Bush senior when he was the head of the CIA set up an off shore bank for the laundering of Drug Money that was tapped when he was President to fight the War on Drugs and just as for at least 300 years the English Monarchy is dependent on Proceeds for the Golden Triangle drug trade there are many institutions that have their hands in the Drug trade and the profits.
Many in Europe can separate the political side of the Church from the spiritual but we have a difficult time doing that and assume the morality and spirituality that we associate with a Church is the fabric of the Church - that was part of what Luther expected and was shocked to learn it is not so - you have to go back in history to see how this evolved and it is a fascinating story.
Example the fight for power among tribes and groups in what is now France and Germany was held by one family with their followers believing the had a certain magical blood that made them the leaders - after several generations of poor leadership Clovis comes along and wants to lead but cannot get past the blood thing so he calls on the church to crown him - the church trumps blood - then because in the East Justin was an Emperor and Clovis was trying to negotiate with him he needed equal power - so the Church and Clovis do a deal where he becomes Emperor and that is one of the events that put the church into politics.
And then the Church always believed in education and for hundreds of years if you wanted your child educated they had to go to a priest or the monastery - The first universities were in the thirteenth century . many young men were even ordained but never acted in their role as priest - few to no king could read - they were great soldiers and could win battles but they depended upon a church member to write all documents and read communications - this is why you see many paintings of royals with a Cardinal among the group. Henry the VIII could not only read but he even wrote poetry and was capable of running his government without the church therefore he could risk going head to head with the Pope.
All to say the Crowns of Europe were dependent on the Church and the Church was dependent on them since they supported no army - Like Iran and other Islamic nations today - the church and government are so entwined you cannot tell one from the other.
The Vatican only became the small size we know today when the areas of Italy united in the nineteenth century into the nation we know today - up until then the Vatican included about a third of the land mass that is Italy - in prior years especially when you read the history of Germany you learn more about the relationship of the Holy Roman Empire and the crowned kings and Emperors - You can also read the make up of the Roman government and see the direct match today of how the Curia is a duplicate of the set up for the Roman Republic.
It was only in the early part of the twentieth century that Cardinals had to be priests and I forget now what year it was established that the Pope had to be a priest. I think it may have been during the 1870 Vatican Council when the Pope, after a review by departments of the Curia, defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. For over a thousand years Bishoprics were purchased by powerful families and again, the Bishop did not have to be a priest - I would have to look up when their ordination became an expectation. And so much of this church is a political governing body. Spiritual growth was found in some Monasteries and Convents - but even there many a Monastery was built for the purpose of collecting taxes - again monks were educated.
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MaryPage, read two of the four books.. There are surely a lot of strange stories running around about the new Pope.. I would assume that when people don't know, they make it up..Whew..If he does nothing else, he hopefully will try to cut down on the excess and money spent in the church on unnecessary garments,etc. Benedict wore more jewelry, etc than most woman and always had the strangest smile. I was always uncomfortable watching him.
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I watched 60 Minutes tonight and they had a 20 minute segment on the Sister who heads up the organization that has 80% of the nuns and sisters of these United States in it, and it was a hoot and a half. Oh, the boys in black are SO SCARED they are all but calling them witches and they have sent a member of the Congregation of the Faith (formerly known as the Inquisition, and same office of the Church) to investigate them and try to bring them "back into the fold." They are trying to tell these women they must be "obedient" to the Curia, and the nuns are saying no, they must be obedient to God. The nuns speak right up and say they think women should have more say and recognition in the church, clear up to women priests. And they are being fought against fiercely FOR THEIR OPINIONS! Great resources being put forth to quell them. Would the Church had reacted even nearly as strongly to the pedophile priests within the fold! Ha!
These nuns say almost nothing about abortion, same sex marriage, contraceptives, etc. They say these are social issues, and what they are doing is trying to get a way to have the voices of the women of this Faith heard. Just heard.
There is a group going around the country called NUNS ON THE BUS. You may have seen the nun in charge of this group when she spoke at the Democratic Convention last year.
Oh, I am so thrilled with these women. So are the sisters at the Catholic High School here that one of my daughters teaches at. So would have been my Aunt Margaret, who was of the Sisters of Saint Joseph. She has been dead for years now; was 95 when she died. And so would some, not all, but some of the Sisters of the Visitation who taught me for two years.
Life is good; or at least, thanks to these great women, it seems to be getting BETTER!
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Ya the guys in red keep saying it is Dogma that says that women cannot be priests - I am knee deep in reading the entire cannon and cannot find anything but then I am not half through yet. The best I come up iwth is an encyclical by Pope Paul which is not meeting the standards required for him to speak in an infallible decree. I think you are right they are running scared. These women are good at how they present themselves and their argument.
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Taking the course on early Christianity, women were equal in many ways, but Paul was anti woman.. I really believe that the intent was there for everyone in their letters, but males at that point were convinced that women are inferior.. sigh.. and so are many many priests and politicians to this day.
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The book Noble Savages by Napoleon Chagnon shows that the male instinct that the female is only a vessel for bearing their children and is actually a lesser being whom they can beat up and even kill with impunity goes right back to the beginning of mankind.
With that sort of innate attitude of the male toward the female, even now women cannot always make their very young sons go off with a different mindset. The moment they begin to be initiated into the male scratch and grunt club, especially the world of sports and the idolization of football "heroes," etc., they ape their fathers attitudes. The courting instinct is only for the purpose of capturing a real live working woman of their own; it rarely contains any depth of feeling.
BUT, and this is the good part of the story: but many men of today do own real feelings and understand love and companionship and equality of aspirations. My third husband was one of these. There is hope for the future, if indeed our happily ever afterward ending can lie in the hands of only a few. The rape is okay and is only a boys will be boys phase of life and a given right, in which actually the female is the one in the wrong and not the wronged, mantra still seems to be the cadence the majority of men hear and respond to.
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Yes, Paul was anti women - with further reading we learn that Paul was about converting the Greeks and true to the earliest Jewish Christ followers - a practice that continues to this day was to take the myths and culture of those groups being converted and adapt their story, myths, legends and culture into the Christian view of incarnation and redemption - The Greeks had a view of women that Paul continued because they rebelled when Paul attempted to teach not exactly equality but a more elevated role as some of the widows were given with special permission to enter what we call the sanctuary today. Rather than loosing these Greek converts Paul continued their cultural view of women that we can trace back to Homer - not that he started it only that the acceptable place of women in the Greek Society was included in his storytelling.
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Per MaryPage, " There is hope for the future, if indeed our happily ever afterward ending can lie in the hands of only a few. The rape is okay and is only a boys will be boys phase of life and a given right, in which actually the female is the one in the wrong and not the wronged, mantra still seems to be the cadence the majority of men hear and respond to."
This certainly seemed to be the case where just this week two young high school football players were convicted of the rape of a teenage girl and of video taping the rape and showing it to others (on the internet, I think). The small town in Ohio where this happened is apparently so wrapped up in football, that the players are heroes who can get away with just about anything. While their jail sentences were fairly short (one to two years), their future careers in football will never be realized and they will always have to register as sex offenders. Hopefully, the publicity of this case will make some parents think about teaching their sons how to treat women. (Can the church teach this responsibility, when so many of their priests were found guilty of molesting children?)
Also, as I posted elsewhere, the U.S. Congress is finally addressing rape in the military. I don't think this would ever have come up were there not now more women in Congress who have demanded it.
Marj
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I find the rape and sexual repression in the military academies extremely unpleasant.. There is simply no excuse for it.. I think that they should immediately be expelled, but I gather they are not.
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Women are still not joining together in large enough numbers. Each is so busy keeping their world going they seldom add their voices to protest groups unless they have been raped or passed over for promotion or felt some other form of discrimination. We need to tell our daughters and granddaughters and great granddaughters that the movement needs THEM, or women will continue to be treated as second class beings. Women need to feel it is their DUTY to add their names and their voices and their, if need be, at least ten dollars a year; after all, it is for their goals to be met that they would make at least this little effort.
The very poor among us need to be able to add their names to NOW and/or PLANNED PARENTHOOD or any other group promoting a good life for women without having to contribute funds. Each group should have an "I can't give, as I'm desperate here, but I am WITH YOU, so jot down my name and address and list it as being one of you. Of us."
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There are things that need to be told on the radio and television and, somehow, inserted into movies and popular television programming. So many, many untold things. You and I may know them, but the vast majority of women do not, and these women vastly underestimate the amount of prejudice out there, while they hold down their underpaid jobs at McDonalds and Walmart. So many truths:
Sandra Day O'Connor graduated top of her law school class at Stanford. She called every single one of the notices on the bulletin board put there by law firms anxious to hire graduates. Not ONE SINGLE ONE was interested in interviewing her. No females! 1952.
Ruth Bader Ginsburg graduated #1 in her law class at Columbia. Actually, she had done her first two years at Harvard, but Harvard then told her they would not give a woman a Harvard law degree, so she switched over to Columbia. Did you just take in that she was NUMBER ONE? Well, this was 1959. She could not get a job. Could NOT get a job. Anywhere. Finally, one of her teachers told a federal judge he would never again send him ANY recommendations unless he gave this woman a chance. Blackmail got Bader Ginsburg her first job! Oh, by the way, Harvard gave her an honorary degree in 2011. Scheesch! I would have enjoyed turning it down!
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Steph wrote, "I find the rape and sexual repression in the military academies extremely unpleasant.. There is simply no excuse for it.. I think that they should immediately be expelled, but I gather they are not."
You're correct there, Steph. The victims have been the ones most likely to be punished.
Women are finally crying out for that to change.
Marj
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Perhaps it would help if the men who respect, appreciate and encourage the women in their lives would speak out (other than to that beloved woman) in favor of all women's rights to function as intelligent individuals.
OTOH and IMHO, as long as women submerge their lives into that of a man - no matter how wonderful he might be - this will always be held up as an example of what a woman "ought to be".
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and as long as we have ministers preaching that "women submerge their lives into that of a man" ... this will always be held up as an example of what a woman "ought to be"
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Yes, there is the fact that many women submerge their lives into their families.. I really note that I felt much freeer as I got older to speak and do as I liked. I think the nurturing gene is strong in us.
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Per Steph, "I think the nurturing gene is strong in us."
I'm not so sure. At least not in all females. I did not have a nurturing gene. I did not want to have children, and would not have done so had there been better birth control when I was first married.
On the other hand, I have known men with a strong "nurturing gene." (Not my ex, however. LOL)
Marj
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I wasn't writing about the Nuturing part of our lives.
I meant the women whose attitude is "My husband thinks, my husband says, my husband wants - therefore I think, I say, I want."
I remember a conversation with a friend about making decisions. She said she and her husband always discussed things. I said, "At some point, someone has to say "this is what will be done'. In your discussions, who says that?"
She replied, "Oh, I always do what ____says."
I don't think she had ever independently thought a subject through, formed an opinion and taken action without his "instruction".
OTOH, my parents came from families who were political polar opposites and my Dad was in office when they married. I remember my Mother saying, "Charlie may have insisted I change how I was registered - but he never knew how I voted." I strongly suspect that, quite often, her vote cancelled his .
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My third marriage was the perfect one. Wish so much he could have lived longer.
We never had a fight or a fuss or a disagreement. We would DEBATE things about books we had read or what we thought people meant by things they said; stuff like that. But it was always most agreeable debating. I was extremely interested in hearing his reasons for feeling as he did, and he was just as interested in hearing mine. We each valued the other's mind intensely.
We fully recognized the differences in our sexes. He loved watching sports on TV; so he watched and never insisted upon my watching. I was happy to know where he was and what he was doing. All of the ways in which Nature made us different, we honored or relished or bowed to or tolerated or whatever it took.
In making decisions, we shared. He told me his preferences and why. I most often had the same preference. But anytime our preferences were different, each of us went with the one to whom it mattered most. We just never, ever had a problem with this. It made me happy to make him happy, and it likewise made him happy to make me happy.
If either of us felt quite strongly that we just COULD NOT do something, then WE did not do that. Or the one did it and the other did not. Whatever fit best.
It can be done. You just have to hook up with a man with a really good, reasoning intelligence and very little or no brute animal anger or coarseness. A man who feels he has nothing to prove and likewise feels you are his equal in every sense of the word. Oh, except I do believe he thought I was sexier than he was, and I thought just the opposite. Hey, that worked for US!
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I stand by my original statement "Perhaps it would help if the men who respect, appreciate and encourage the women in their lives would speak out... in favor of all women's rights to function as intelligent individuals..
Thats it from this corner. :)
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To which I say "Amen" from this corner!
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But Callie, there just are not enough of them.
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I know, MaryPage. Sad, isn't it?
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The thing is.. why are there so few men who feel like that.. and for me, why are there so few politicians who realize this.. Part is that in my part of the south, the evangelicals rule and many of the congregations seem to feel that men must be the leaders..
The nurturing gene has little to do with your own children and everything to do with how you think and feel.. I was not particularly good at small children, but did much better as my sons became teens. My husband was an absolute miracle with the small children... not so much with the teens.
I have a good friend who is incredible with nurturing. Now as an old person, she has turned this into feeding the hungry and her passion and joy is contagious.
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One of my huge surprises is that the women who are doctors, and over half of all doctors graduated from medical school today ARE women, do not press the men in their ranks to present a united front and put out medically correct statements whenever lies are told and retold and printed about women's health issues.
No matter which political party you favor or which economic school you believe to be correct, FACTS ARE FACTS, and facts are NOT opinions. They just flat out ARE NOT opinions!
So people should not get away with spouting "facts" that are lies.
And our medical community should say: "Hogwash! Of course women get pregnant from rape!"
And our medical community should say, as that courageous young law student from that esteemed Jesuit school of higher learning: Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. said, that of course contraceptives are an important prescription for women's health because they are used by millions of women just to regulate their cycles and improve their overall health in that way, and they are the best known treatment for ovarian cancer, and go on to list their many other uses and virtues that have nothing to do with preventing conception, or even, for that matter, having anything to do with having sex.
But the medical community does not speak up. At least, I have not been aware that they have.
Two of my thirteen granddaughters had to be put on the pill in their very early teens, not because they were having sex, which they most certainly were not, but because they were suffering from erratically timed periods that were extremely painful and profuse. The pill was the best fix. I mean, they were CRIPPLED by their periods, and had to miss school. The pill fixed them up.
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In looking for some info on historian Mary Ritter Beard this morning i came across this paragraph which expresses a continuing theoretical dichotomy within and without the feminist movement. Should women strive to be the same as men, or do we have differences that give us uniqueness in society? Beard didn't like the "oppressive" centered history of women. She wrote that women have always had important places and unique skills throughout history. I think i hear in this day and age a blending of the dichotomy. What do you think?
With the successful passage of the Nineteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution behind her, Beard began to concentrate more fully on her writing and to further develop her philosophy concerning women in history which frequently set her at odds with the feminist movement. Along with her husband Charles, she had been an active proponent of the “New History” movement which sought to include social, cultural and economic factors in written history—an important step towards including the contributions of women. Beard expanded on this concept, contending that the proper study of women’s “long history”, from primitive pre-history to the present would reveal that women have always played a central role in all civilizations. She emphasized that women were different from men but that did not make their contributions of any less value, their significance was simply not being recognized. Beard took issue with feminists of the era who she believed viewed their history as one of oppression and their goal as equality with men, which they worked toward through, among other things, their advocacy for an Equal Rights Amendment (ERA). To Beard, that history was not only inaccurate but unhelpful and that striving to be like men was not an adequate goal, she felt, because women can and should offer something different and more socially beneficial to society, that women should be providers of “culture and civilization”.[2] She attempted to educate women about their history through her writing and when she felt she wasn’t reaching her audience she changed tactics.
I liked two of her books, On Understanding Women, and Woman as a Force in History, they are both good survey histories of women's contributions to civilization.
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I think Beard's mindset is wrong headed. I admire her brains, but her eyes are turned in the wrong direction.
As a Feminist, I have absolutely no desire to be like men. Like a man or like any man. They have accused us of having a penis envy. Not me! Not here! Given the choice to be born again, I mean literally here and am not using religious terminology, I would come back as a woman. Hey, I think we are MADE superior to men! They only have their brute force to slap us down. Most of them are two year olds who have grown bigger, but not smarter. We are nicer and more caring.
And I care. I care rather desperately about every child born on the face of this planet and what their chances are for a good life.
This is what it is to be a woman. I had a long conversation this morning with my young, black gastroenterologist. She is brilliant. And she knows how things are. This is her view of the pecking order here on planet Earth: White men, Black Men, White Women, Black Women. She knows and understands that despite their deep ingrained racial prejudices, white men think of black men as superior to any woman, even those of their own race. The basic and most indelible prejudice for men is the inferiority of women.
THAT is what I want to smack in the face. I don't care if men become totally useless, I think women should run this world, as it would be a better place for babies to be born and grow up in.
This morning's Washington Post says most babies born in this country today are born to unmarried women. I have no quarrel with a woman deciding to have a baby although she is unmarried, but I do feel a huge unknowing question about those children growing up without daddies in the home. Will this be hard on them? Or will their lives be better for it? I don't know. I just don't know.
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whow - and she is a historian - did she never look into the history of philosophy or theology - women philosophers are not included in the canon because all philosophy goes back to Plato and Socrates and women tend to listen and see things from a different perspective that if included would change the entire foundation and house constructed on this foundation of the history of philosophy and so to this day we have excluded the contributions of great women philosophers - today we cannot name 9 women philosophers off the top of our head that lived before the twentieth century. And so I ask where is reality when for thousands of years we exclude the philosophical work of half the population?
On top of which the exclusion of women in philosophy is picked up in the exclusion of women doing Theology. So that now we have leaders of one of the largest religions in the world saying it is Dogma that women can not be priests - where is the Dogma - it is simply based on a house of cards.
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Don't misunderstand this small bit of what Beard was about. She was very much a feminist and had worked with Alice Paul and Lucy Burns to pass the vote. She was not saying women have always been in history books, but that women have always been making contributions in culture and civilization, but had NOT been included in the scholarly studies of history. She was very much involved w/ working class women to get equal opprtunity. She thought that the focus of one group of feminists at the time, 1920's and 30's, were too focused on women as victims and not focused on their capabilities and ability to do and contribute.
This was a review i wrote on the book for Amazon
This review is from: On Understanding Women (Hardcover)
I read this book about three decades ago when I was first educating myself in women's history. Beard starts back in pre-historic times telling us that in hunter-gatherer communities the population was women and children. Men after about age twelve left the communities and were a part of roving bands of men who occaisionally visited the small communities keeping the population growing. Because the societies were women and children, women were responsible for the survival of the community; they knew where the foodstuffs were at which time of the year and how to get to them; they knew where the water sources were; they knew where the shelters were.
According to Beard it is very likely that women started the agricultural period of civilization. It is likely that coming back to a previously visited site women may have recognized that in a spot where children had spilled a basket of grains into the mud three months ago, grain was now growing in that mud. Could they do that deliberately? She also states that "women launched civilization." a woman would have made that basket that the grain was spilled from. A woman would have sung lullabies to comfort children, drawn pictures for them on cave walls - women's palm prints are visible in the famous cave paintings. Once they were controlling their agriculture, women may have begun a rythmic "work song" to make the work of planting more enjoyable. Women, who made whatever garments were being designed and made, woud have been the persons who embellished them, adding stones (beads), feathers, fringe, etc.
Beard moves on through history to the 20th century, adding information about women to the story. She writes in a clear, easily read, yet scholarly way. There was controversy that she does not footnote her writing. As of today, that doesn't matter much, her information can be readily checked for scources and corroboration with the use of the internet.
This is a great introduction to a survey of women's history. It should be followed up with the reading of more specific eras and people, but it's a good start. Her "Women As a Force in History" is a good second survey of women's history read.
I think you would both agree with her and enjoy her books.
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I would guess that some feminists would argue that the men brought home the meat and therefore were the original feeders.. The western Indians put their precious seeds for the next year in a sealed up jar each fall, hid it in a place known to them and then wandered all winter.. coming back to their summer place and breaking out the seeds to plant to live.. I always wondered if a woman had thought of this plan.Strikes me as the kind of thought that a woman would have.
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I agree with MaryPage in that I don't think Feminists necessarily want to be like men. They want to share power equally with men..
However I don't agree that women are superior to men. Neither gender is superior to the other, IMO.
Marj
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Guess that is one of the many places where the mind sets of we women diverge. One of the most interesting and eye-opening experiences of my entire life was the Conscious Raising group I was pulled into back in 1977. Did it, basically, because it was women promoting it and women doing it; Really thought it, hey, confession time here, a bunch of marlarky.
Boy, was I ever wrong. We ranged in age from 19 to my then 48. We were all over the place in education, culture, life experience. We came from totally different places and information, but we learned what we had in common and formed a sisterhood.
Must confess, and then go on from here, I DO think women are superior to men. I do. There you have it.
The Love of My Life was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. Himself completed me. Gave me consolation and value. Gave me everything I needed and yearned for. But even Himself knew I think women offer more hope for this world than do the men who have brought us to the brink of extinction. He knew I adored him above all, but he also knew how my thoughts sort themselves.
And he agreed. He thought women superior, too.
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When I say I find women superior to men, am thinking most profoundly in the Biological sense. Seriously, here, am not trying to exhibit a prejudice or bigotry.
Women are put together better for survival. We live longer. We can handle more stress and handle it better. We are more caring and more altruistic. Could go on and on, but no point in becoming completely boring. Just wanting you to know am not saying: Hey, there's us and them and we're better.
Nope; think Mother Nature made us far superior, and what is more, think you find this all throughout the animal world. People, animals, insects, birds, fish. The female is the superior creation.
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Some women getting their due.............
50 women who changed America's health
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/18/50-women-in-health_n_2879370.html
Click on the righthand arrow of the slideshow to get their names and description.
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I'm confused the first post expresses her disregard for women who point out the inadequacy of the system towards women and the second article that you wrote says she is the best thing since apple sauce. Is it showing the split among women and therefore we cannot make the kind of difference yet because we come from divergent viewpoints?
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I don't believe she was disregarding the women who were pointing out the inadequacies of the systems, i think she felt there was too much emphasis on women as victims because no one was writing the positives and the contributions of women throughout history. Historians had traditionally written only about leaders, aristocracy, politics, religion, economics and wars, all focusing on the men involved. Beard and her husband were a part of a group of historians who were focusing on the history of labor- men and women's involvement, the masses, societal issues, cultural issues, women's lives, etc. in other words, involving the stories of all of the people of history.
Mary Beard wrote several books focused only on women and co-wrote several with her husband on big issues where she assured women were included. The two books of hers that i have read are On Understanding Women, which starts w/ the info in the review about hunter-gatherer women and continues to WWI, and Women as a Force in History. That title was her theory of writing women's history in the mid 20th century, to let women and men know that women had not always been in total oppressive/submissive situations and had had power, even if often indirect, and had been inventive and contributing. Women that most people had no knowledge of, or of the things that women had done, even if lacking equal opportunity. She was very pro woman and again i think you are agreeing with her theory - women should not be striving to be like men, but striving for equal opprtunity and equal power.
Many women, including " feminists" were not supportive of the ERA at the time, including Eleanor Roosevelt. Feminists are not a monolith, as is true of most movements and i don't percieve that as a bad thing, only if the factions become so extreme that they become unfunctional...........as our Congress. ::) There was a lot of fear of women losing what some considered benifits in the labor force, restricted hours, restricted weights to be lifted, etc. Of course, ERA advocates wld say those "benefits" were keeping women from better paying jobs. There are still disagreements about whether we should be expending energy working to pass an ERA, especially since a lot of those "benefits" have been taken care of with more progressive labor law.
Jean
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Just curious, Jean, why you are interested in what Mary Ritter Beard (1876-1958) had to say about women except as a history of how feminists long ago thought about women. Thinking has evolved since her time.
Marj
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I think it is the two posts that are confusing to me - the first includes "Beard took issue with feminists of the era who she believed viewed their history as one of oppression and their goal as equality with men, which they worked toward through, among other things, their advocacy for an Equal Rights Amendment (ERA)." and then there is her support for women so that confuses how can you support women and not be an advocate for the ERA - unless we are talking in ideas that have nothing to do with reality - maybe Beard would have a better way of achieving equal rights and equal pay but it is what it is and not everyone comes to it from the same experience so I am not sure I understand supporting someone who picks at how women present themselves to get equal rights - I am just confused - somehow this is not sorted out so I understand.
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I think humans are like the dog world.. Both sexes have a different view of the world.. but they are equal in many ways.. I do wonder about the current women incommand in the computer world.. They do not seem to like other women and are trying too hard to be stricter than a male.. and having a nursery built next to your office is truly rubbing it in to all of the women struggling with child care in the world.
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Steph wrote, " I do wonder about the current women in command in the computer world.. They do not seem to like other women and are trying too hard to be stricter than a male.."
What women are you talking about, Steph?
Marj
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Barb - i was a history teacher/professor and have an avocation of women's history. I like that Beard broke "new ground" in the mid-20th century, a hearld of things to come in the 60s, 70s and 80s scholarly studies to include women. Obviously, at various points in history there were writings that talked about women, women's diaries and journals, but almost all scholarly work through eons had talked only about men. Beard went looking for the history from women's point of view and she was a credible historian. The historiography interests me, as well as the material she brought to the attention of society.
I expect that there will be different perspectives of what should be the focus of study, or activism, and don't expect anyone to agree with my perspective 100%. i still find people interesting to read and know about even if we don't see eye-to-eye on everything. I appreciate their positive contributions - from my point of view. ;)
Jean
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I love these tidbits of information.
Who Knew!?! A woman invented the circular saw!?!
http://pinterest.com/pin/474144666989207538/
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senior moment. A very pretty blonde who was pregnant when made CEO last year. She recently decided that her company (Google???) will no longer permit employees to work from home. At the same time she put down women taking maternity leave and had a nursery built next to her office. That's pushing it from my point of view.
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It was Marissa Mayer, CEO at Yahoo, who had a nursery built next to her office at her own expense. She then banned telecommuting, which had been fairly prevalent. Her rationale was the need for collaboration, and the fact that there were abuses of the system. That may be true, but could have been taken care of with closer monitoring of output plus requiring part office time. She herself only took 2 weeks maternity leave, and made the remark that it was all easier than people made it out to be. Yeah, sure, if you're rich and lucky enough to have an easy pregnancy.
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Agree w/ both of you! One of my pet peeves is when people with authority don't have the guts to deal w/ individual misbehavior and instead impose a rule that impacts everybody, including those who were behaving. Not good management!
And Ms Yahoo obviously has no concept, or she's ignoring the knowledge she has, of the majority of women's/parent's lives or capabilities to not be able to bring their children to the office and hire a private babysitter to care for them. The costs of daycare today are extraordinary, and i understand why, we need to pay for GOOD daycare and we still aren't paying daycare providers what they should be paid. I don't know the answer, but it's very expensive for even middle class parents.
In the late-20th century women's movement we called this the "queen-bee syndrome", i got mine, you have to get yours on your own. The movement was about sisterhood and we're all in this together and, of course, the personal is political! This is a systemic problem, not an individual's problem. Marissa should learn some women's history and generate some empathy.
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The inability of our homo sapiens species to see beyond their own life experience and walk in others shoes is mind boggling.
Empathy.
Surely it could be taught? At an early age?
I don't know, I don't know.
A bleeding heart has been my downfall all of my life. And one of my daughters is Even Worse! She heard of a hungry family and, when her own resources were stretched so thin she was hard put to pay her bills on time, she was taking bags of groceries and leaving them at that family's door! She just could not stand it! Well, I taught my children that we cannot possibly fix ALL of this world's ills, but if we can do a little bit at a time we have contributed.
I am not trying to pat myself on the back here. God knows I have many faults and frailties and omissions of effort. But I am musing out loud here, and I do believe far fewer men feel empathy or ever own any in their makeup than do women.
I can remember being a tiny girl in Kindergarten and First Grade back when we had recess and we all piled out onto hard packed playgrounds and there were fights and running games and huge amounts of noise and commotion. And always the child crying because they had been pushed down or a nasty comment made or they had been excluded from a game or some terrible hurt. And I always went to them and tried to console them and I felt their pain.
Why? Is there a gene for this? I think there may be.
The Washington Post reports there were 70 beheadings of women for "committing adultery" in Afghanistan in 2012. Seventy. Public beheadings. No punishment reported for the men involved, if indeed there were any. An accusation from a husband who wants to get rid of his wife appears to be enough. 70 beheadings in Afghanistan with their population is the equivalent of 700 in the United States. Can you imagine? Can you bear the thought of ONE public beheading here? How about SEVEN HUNDRED?
Dear God, why are not our male lawmakers interested in saving the lives of women, rather than spending all of their energies and resources on stamping out each and every abortion and curtailing contraceptives? Why do they harbor such strong instincts to crush the value of the lives of women?
Painfully, I will soon leave this world; and I do not find it a good one.
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Why oh why do we throw so much money into a country that is so savage.. I try very hard to stay focused on how many good muslims there probably are, but the beheadings and murders of women and the belief that women are inferior simply drives me away from sympathy.
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After I read Noble Savages by Napoleon Chagnon, I got and read Spirit of The Rainforest by Mark Andrew Ritchie. Both books, albeit told from different perspectives, prove conclusively to me that the conviction men have that females are male property and expendable comes from our stone age roots.
If you try Spirit Of The Rainforest, I feel compelled to warn you in advance that it is very frank, blunt, and violent. Men kill women, including their own wives, and are not held liable. And they deliberately, one on one, kill children and babies, as well. Everything in LIFE is all about them and their own seed.
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I remember reading about the Yanomamo people from my anthropology classes. They live in the rainforest of Brazil. A fascinating people. I believe I still have Napoleon Chagnon's book, Yanomamo, The Fierce People, around here somewhere.
I don't recall their doing anything anywhere near as bad as what the U.S. did in killing those thousands of people in Iraq.
Marj
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It is just as bad, if not worse. Just no technology involved and the numbers are, of course, much lower. But percentage wise, it is probably worse in the rainforest. The facts as laid out in this latest book are depressing, to say the least. Man is a killer.
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The sport of war is neverending. We did a lot of damage to our own Indians.. Males have some sort of underlying passion for death and struggle. Women... want to preserve life for the most part.
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Well, exactly.
If our species is to survive, I think there may well be only one way: build freezers full of sperm from the fittest and finest and exterminate all males under the age of 65. Let women rule the world and gestate only female babies-to-be. I think we can find the ways to make everything work better for everyone.
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One of those women we've never heard about in our history classes.......
New book: Glynis Ridley on “The Discovery of Jeanne Baret”
Quoting blog: But just in time for Women’s History Month, Glynis Ridley has kindly stepped in with a guest post talking about her non-fiction adventure story The Discovery of Jeanne Baret: A Story of Science, the High Seas, and the First Woman to Circumnaviagate the Globe. I first ran across Jeanne Baret’s remarkable story in another book She Captains: Heroines and Hellions of the Sea by Joan Druett; and, yes, women have commanded navies, captained ships and served as crew long before modern times. I was delighted to have the opportunity to read Ms. Ridley’s riveting account of one these remarkable and neglected women in history.
Here's a link to the author's statement about the book:
http://faithljustice.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/guest-post-and-giveaway-glynis-ridley-on-the-discovery-of-jeanne-baret/#more-941
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Gertrude Bell is another unknown to study and know about. She was beyond amazing. Incredible. I admire her hugely, albeit I feel she made some rather drastic mistakes. The way she invented what we today call IRAQ was a humongous mistake on her part, as she did not rightly take into account the divisions among the peoples she clumped together.
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I'm reading "Soundings: the Story of the remarkable woman who Mapped the Ocean Floor" by Halli felt. It raises too many memories of what it was like to work as a woman in a male-dominated area in the 50s.
Marie Tharp was the first to map the ocean floor, and discovered the Atlantic Rift: the first evidence of what was then called (but dismissed ) continental drift. When she explained to her boss, he dismissed it as "girl talk". But as the evidence accumulated, he was convinced. So when the find was first published, it had him as an author, and not her!!
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Isn't it fun to keep finding out about these women?
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Here's another book about women - The Girls of Atomic City (http://www.amazon.com/The-Girls-Atomic-City-ebook/dp/B008J4GTU4/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1364338951&sr=1-1&keywords=the+girls+of+atomic+city). I just heard about this on the PBS News Hour (they're going to be talking about it at the end of the hour. We may have moved on to basketball by then, but I'll bet it'll be on BookTV before long (not currently scheduled).
Anyway, it's about the women who worked in Oak Ridge, TN, on the Manhattan Project - the super-secret development of the atomic bomb during WW2. If you're not from this area, you might not know about Oak Ridge, but it was an amazing situation. I've bought this book for my iPad, and am really looking forward to reading it.
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In all the history i've read about the MP - not books, but articles and monographs - i don't remember the mention of a woman! Not surprised that they were there.
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In the interview, the author said the people who worked from the "top down" (president, atomic energy scientists, etc.) were men and were the only ones you heard about. It really looks interesting.
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To some extent women today are where blacks were in the 70's and 80's.. When I was in school, there was never a mention in history books on any of the contributions of blacks or women.. Now there is black history month.. Possibly womens history month may come along some day.
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March has been designated Women's History Month since the 1980's. The unlikely couple of Senators Hatch and Mukalski sponsored the legislation. Here are 2 sites, one the general history and one about the 2013 theme of inspirational women of science. Google women's history month to read more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_History_Month
http://womenshistorymonth.gov/
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I am all for women getting recognized, and am fully aware of the many indignities we have been required to suffer rather than get our properly due regard. My cherished Brontes had to use initials and pass as male writers in order to get published.
But the occasional award, reward, or ribbon does not make up for the humongous amount of energy our national House of Representatives and some of our state politicians are putting toward crippling the chances of any female of any age getting needed medical attention and health care in this so called Leader of the 21st Century USA World on Planet Earth. Not by a long shot. They are working so hard they are outdoing themselves with their efforts in North Dakota, Arkansas, Virginia and Kansas. Why aren't we women fighting back? Why aren't these younger generations we have done our damnedest to raise with awareness standing tall on those outrageously ridiculous and expensive heels and screaming bloody blue murder?
Beats me!
The most outrageous truth is that most of these men really don't have a clue as to how women's reproductive systems work.
These primitive, stone age males are at war on women's rights to good health. They don't even belong at the table, much less in the same room.
I despair.
Their wives and mistresses need to take them by the ear and give them a dressing down about the good they COULD be doing in this world.
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Here is a site that will send you a weekly Women's History newsletter, if you are interested. Jone does a good job of linking her subjects, so you can find some very interesting information. She writes it on a level that you can share with everyone form about 10 yrs old and up.
http://womenshistory.about.com/
It is sometimes very depressing as to what is happening in the field of women's issues if we only see the news stories on major media. They, of course, look for the most extreme stories, so that even though they are true and those events are happening, we get a skewed look at what is happening in the country and the world. Even some of the feminist blogs sometimes get bogged down in the negative, to find the balance takes some digging. I'll post some sites as we go along.
I think there are a lot of important progressive things happening in the shadows. There is a strong fight going on at the moment to reopen the battle for the ERA, to not have to go back to the beginning, but to be able to just fight for the 3 more states that need to ratify the 1972 Amendment.There is a lot of work going on in women's health. Actually, i kind of cheer a little when each of those idiot guys gets media time for being stupid. It makes feminists - men and women - and middle of the road girls and women and men mad. As long as those jerks stay in the minority, they are actually working for us, IMO. The North Dakota law was put up to test Roe v Wade. I think they will lose if it goes to the SC.
I was just, two hours ago, talking to a woman who teaches Women's Studies at the community college I taught at, she says that the college age women have a skewed sense of what is sexual empowerment - they think feeling good about what a man has said or done to them is empowering and don't understand the underlying control that gives him. They think dressing in a way that they believe they have determined as to what makes them feel sexy is empowerment, the 5/6 inch heels, the spandex short dresses, not realizing that if they are uncomfortable in those clothes they are not going to be confident in themselves, or look professional or confident, or capable. What happened to our seventies attitude that comfortability is the most important issue? Not that i'm a proponent of the granny dresses, etc. of the time. ;D We left behind the girdle and now almost all the young women are wearing spanks!
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I just watched on TV as President Obama and Vice President Biden introduced the new head of the Secret Service, Julia Pierson, the first woman to head the agency. I was really embarrassed for Ms. Pierson.
President Obama made some remark about her being the most important woman in their lives next to their spouses, while Biden stood there grinning and nodding agreement with his arm around her. How condescending. Here's a mature woman with 30 years experience in the agency being treated rather like a cute little girl. I know one of the most important jobs of the SS is to protect the president, but... If this were a man, would they speak to him like that? Of course not. They would shake his hand and congratulate him. You may see it on this evening's news tonight.
Marj
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Actually, Jean, I quite liked the "Granny dresses!"
And I also like comfort and health. Ask any orthopedic surgeon, and most doctors for that matter, and they will tell you that just as those brought up listening to Huge Noise bands will become deaf, so the damage to the spines and pelvises of these young women wearing these incredible heels will be intolerable. For them. Pity!
Oh well. Live and learn.
You make some very valid points. And you cheer me up with your positive talk about what is going on that we don't hear about.
So, bottom line, the male designers of women's clothing and accessories dress them (I don't say "we" here, because I have never fallen for it) up like trash and the women fall for the idea that they can turn on the men and feel flattered by their adoration, while all the time the men get all stirred up (and not with adoration), and when they rape they blame the provocation of the way the women dress!
I think that is called a vicious cycle.
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Marjifay, I listened very carefully and saw the video clip twice. President Obama said: "This woman now HAS MORE CONTROL over our lives than any woman other than our wives."
Which is true, and I did not find it demeaning at all. She now can GIVE THEM ORDERS about where they may and may not go and who will or will not be with them. That is the law.
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You're right MaryPage, it is a vicious cycle and it sounds like 1913 instead of 2013 and yes, i think deafness and terrible backs are in our youth's future. I say that in sympathy, as a woman who has been dealing w/ a pinched nerve in my lower back for the last 8 months and as a woman who never wore a heel higher than 3 inches and for the last 2 decades no heel higher than a 2inch wedge. I got totally into the "comfort" mode, and i could do it and still be stylish and look good, for myself.
Your Obama qoute is correct and that didn't offend me, but i was appalled at Joe Biden holding her hand the whole time!!! I started to think," oh, that's just Joe," but caught myself and remembered that's what we used to say about men who were telling dirty jokes, or calling us "honey." oh dear! Two steps forward, but only one step back, there is a need for continuous vigilance and battle.
Jean
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Browsing in IMDB movie site -- a movie about Gertrude Bell is proposed for 2014.
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I spent many years braless, but gravity has taken over and in my old age, I am back to finding comfortable bras.. No underwires.. lbut I confess that I adored high heels ( being short) and lamented after I broken my ankle and could no longer tolerate them..
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Per Jean: "Your Obama quote is correct (MaryPage) and that didn't offend me, but i was appalled at Joe Biden holding her hand the whole time!!!"
Yes, that was treating her like a good little girl, IMO. And I still think Obama's comment was condescending. Neither their wives nor Ms. Pierson have control over them. It's as though he's implying, "but we'll let you think you do. chuckle, chuckle." He certainly would not have made that comment to a male.
If you ever watch the game show Wheel of Fortune, does it bother you that Pat Sajak, the male host, always holds the hands of the female winners as they walk towards the final question -- as though females need his guidance to get there.
Marj
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I never watch any of the game shows or reality shows or audience participation shows (the noise is unbearable to me) or daytime talk/audience stuff, etc. I am mostly just a news junkie, though I do watch quite a number of PBS documentaries.
It really offends my sensibilities to see humans acting like chimps.
I expect Dr. Jill Biden and Michelle Obama, Esquire let their husbands have it when they behave stupidly.
If a man is TRYING to rearrange his male instincts to take the proper attitude and direction, I can't waste time faulting him.
It is the real misogynists up there in front of their microphones every day streaming their hatred and bile throughout the 50 states and beyond that make me want to vomit up my meals.
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I agree it was subtle discrimination by Obama, unduoubtedly meant to be kind, polite, etc. But I think these subtle discriminations, especially when made by important people, need to be pointed out and addressed as such, because many of them continue on and on and they add up to tolerance for big discrimination. That is why I sent both him and Biden a letter, and also posted my feelings to several forums.
Marj
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"I spent many years braless, but gravity has taken over and in my old age,"
After my mastectemy, I found the bras with the false breast so uncomfortable to wear, I started going bra-less and wearing baggy clothes. (Heck, I was so glad to be alive, I wasn't going to let a little thing like worrying about what I looked like stop me from enjoying life).Since gravity took over, you can't tell, I just look flat-chested.
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Some activist news from my friend Bobbie Francis who is the ERA Chair for the Natl Assn of Organiztion Women. She is working hard to get the legislation introduced to get the last 3 states ratified. Young people are active.............
There’s lots happening at Rutgers he could mention – like the Rutgers Center for Women’s Global Leadership’s 16 Days of Activism against Violence against Women (a major global initiative started there in 1991 under Charlotte Bunch). I also remember at least one if not more projects by Rutgers men to oppose violence against women – somehow think a calendar was involved.
When I was Director of the Division on Women in the Florio administration, we expanded the domestic violence prevention program into the Office on Prevention of Violence Against Women in order to emphasize that domestic violence, sexual assault, sexual harassment, etc., were all “sides of the same cube.” (The “etc.” also includes pornography, incest, and more, but I didn’t get into that at the time.)
At the core, the best prevention is a social system based on gender equity and equal valuing of both women and men, but there are so many dimensions to achieving that goal (including putting the ERA into the Constitution!) that in dealing with violence against women, policymakers and activists need to engage primarily with more specific aspects of the challenge.
She was responding to a round of emails that a group of us in South Jersey had shared after Congressman John Runyon, a REpubican, had supported a national award for Alice Paul and had recently been a part of 19 Rep members who had pushed the House Members to accept the Senate version of the VAWA and it was passed. The Rutgers action was happening this week.
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I am all for the
ERA, but live in Florida where there are a good many Neanderthals.. Think it will still be hard to pass in many places..
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I'm with you, JoanK, re false boobs. Uncomfortable. Shortly after my mastectomy (one side), I slipped and fell coming down a step from a fast food restaurant. And horrors, my one false boob popped out of my bra and rolled down the sidewalk. Luckily, it was dark outside and no one was around. Last time I wore it. Am a little lopsided, but who cares.
Marj
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The important factor of the ERA is that government enities will have to change ALL LAWs that discriminate. There won't have to be law suits, or battles for change, one at a time. So it doesn't change the neanderthals, Steph, but it does change the system. We know people change after the system has changed the circumstances - stopping employment discrimination meant that hundreds of thousands of people were forced to work with, and get to know, women, minorities and now gays, that didn't happen previous to the laws changing. Going to school with minorities, being in the military with minorities, or w/ women as officers, or "in the trenches" with women has shown many that women have many more capabilities than prejudiced individuals thought they had. When i worked for Dept of Army, i heard more then one male say the best commander they ever had was a woman.
On the other hand, i keep saying "the aliens have tainted the water" in relation to these nuts who are coming out of the woodwork, or the backlash against many things female.
Here's a good short bio of a woman who overcame enormous odds and was labeled as crazy because she was so smart. Barbara McClintock ended up getting a Nobel Prize for her work in genetics. Don't be put off by the title of the blog, it's the younger generations example of sardonic humor, she writes an excellent blog on women's issues.
http://saintssistersandsluts.com/barbara-mcclintock-nobel-prize-delayed/#comment-1392
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I have hope! I have hope! Thank god, at last before I die, I have hope!
Have just finished reading the March 29/April 5 double issue of NEWSWEEK magazine on my iPad, and I shall read much of it again and again.
If you do not already subscribe to Newsweek, I urge you to do so or, at the least, to buy this one issue for your computer or laptop or iPod or iPad or whatever. It is ALL about women. All of it. About women.
And read HOWEVER LONG THE NIGHT by Molly Melching. Wow! Quadruple Wow!
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And Aimee Molloy. It is also by Aimee Molloy. I gather Melching lived it and Molloy wrote it. Or something like.
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Marjafay "Am a little lopsided, but who cares."
Exactly my sentiments. If we happen to be lopsided on opposite sides (I'm missing left) we could walk together and even it out. ;D
I'll have to get newsweek.
Mabil: exactly! All these laws have the same descrimatory base. And they can be passed like weeds: get rid of one and three pop up.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I hope you understand that the physical, print edition of NEWSWEEK is no longer published.
They are totally electronic now. And I thought I would be disappointed, but that is not the case.
I LOVE the electronic edition. Such FUN to get so many, many more pictures and some VIDEOS! Every week!
So Google Newsweek and follow the instructions there, or nab their phone number there and call them. They can set you up.
You will LOVE it!
And no, I do not own stock in them. I do not own even one cent of them. I do not have any relatives or friends who work for them. I swear.
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Yes, i had a subscription to Newsweek and am very unhappy w/ the online-only version. I kept the hard copies in the bathroom and read them at my leisure. :) It's not the same w/ an ipad!!! ::) I like this week's cover better then last week's! Dennis Rodman!!! I couldn't believe that! I haven't read the issue yet, so i don't know what their focus is. I also have not read this current issue on women either. I've been too busy getting ready to have company each of the next three weekends.
Happy Easter, or Spring, or whatever applies to you.
Jean
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The new electronic Newsweeks stay in an archive on your machine and you can go back and read any issue you wish, indefinitely. This week's issue, which is all about women, is a marvelous compilation of what is going on with women all over this world. Well worth reading as soon as you find time.
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Actually I was thinking of our legislature passing the law in the first place.. This is a state that probably would not consider it.
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I agree w/ that assessment Steph.
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Hmm, I just don't want a subscription to Newsweek. Will have to check, but probably you cant buy one issue.
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I think you can. Can buy just one issue.
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Will try for that issue, but fact is, with the moving, I just flat out have so little time. If I can get just one, I will simply let it sit on my IPAD until life calms down a bit.
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Darling Steph, BELIEVE me when I say I understand. Oh, Wow, do I understand!
I have such a long, long list of things to do, and so little time.
Yesterday's Sunday Washington Post had an article in the OUTLOOK section titled: "My Twin Was Raped. It Almost Killed Me." And the article cites that one woman in five (1 in 5) here in these United States will be raped. Ghastly!
And it states that world-wide, one in three (1 in 3) will be raped or physically or sexually abused by men.
Maybe I am out of touch, but it does seem to me I hear more men proclaiming women don't get raped unless they ask for it, and, listen and read as hard as I can, very few women fighting back with the Truth.
Get out your bull horns, Women! Yell and yell and yell and yell until they are finally forced to retreat from their misogynist pulpits and allow you to be heard!
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You can't use a blow horn because you want to keep face to keep your job - you do not want either the sympathy that puts you in a different position among friends and family nor do you want others to know period because most than keep their distance - most unconsciously do not want to face what could happen to them so they distance themselves to protect not their body but their psyche and so anyone that blows a horn has to be prepared for a very lonely existence.
Sure there are a few who blow their horn and look who they are and who they are surrounded with - angry vocal women on a mission - the everyday woman needs her job needs her friends needs the support of family for more than what still amounts to Hester's scarlet letter.
Then God forbid you are under 16 and were raped or even molested by someone in the family - others take over and the child is re-traumatized all over as all decisions are made regardless what she wants - what difference is that compared to the rape when all decisions were made regardless what she wants or even understood just as she will not understand why she is punished and has to leave the house and if a mother wants to be with her they both have to leave the house and so the family has another war that becomes a financial war plus brothers and sisters and other family members taking sides and blaming her for the split and difficulty in the family and if her rapist is punished that is the end of any family financial security - and so all that is heaped on the head of the girl and in many countries all of that is what happens even if she is raped by a stranger.
So lets get real and figure out real answers to what is reality - who even risks sharing the story of what happens without risking having fingers pointed and enduring the greater risk which occurs unless you are famous that is the distance that comes from fear becoming the cause of loosing professional and even social friends.
Fear is trauma that can be reacted to by flight, fight and freeze - with little support fight is very seldom a reality for most women and as such that inner unconscious shield of protection could be at the bottom of why the glass ceiling -
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I have never understood the"Blame the Victim" school, but we seem to have a lot of male politicians, so know some very peculiar answers.. Not get pregnant... bah humbug... asking for it, which was very popular when I was young.. Rape is a hard hard subject, but I would truly hope that if I were, I would be brave enough to speak out.
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http://contentviewer.adobe.com/s/Newsweek/c5cabc60bd7a45d4a6b493fc0ba1ffcf/com.newsweek.20130329/00_cover_13.html
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Wonderful cover thanks for sharing it MaryPage however without a name registered with Newsweek that is all we can see is the cover.
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This is my favorite of all of the wonderful articles in that edition of NEWSWEEK.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/04/01/molly-melching-s-quest-to-end-female-genital-cutting.html
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In my History News Newsletter today there was an interview with a producer of Makers: Women who Made America, about our contemporary women's movement. This is a comment i sent to the site about all of you. Can you find yourself in it? We're each there in one of more of the examples. If you'd like to read the interview, it's here: http://hnn.us/articles/making-historical-documentary-makers
my response:
"Women who sustained the movement
Makers was a wonderful documentary of the contemporary women's movement. I wish someone would go down a layer and write a book about not just the queen bees of that movement, but the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of the women drones who have sustained the movement in many, many ways.
I use drone in a most positive sense. If the Newsweek, LHJ strikes and other high profile events had been the only ones that happened in the country, they would have been a small triumph for the movement. Those examples can be expanded to untold numbers of examples of women and men who expanded the movement into all corners of the country by becoming community activists for women's equality and other concerns of women and girls.
There are the women who have spent their whole lives in vocations or avocations working for the progress of women in all areas of society. There are the women's groups throughout the country who sued their employers for equal pay and equal opportunity. There are the women who started NOW chapters in their communities and have kept them operating for five or six decades or who started consciousness-raising groups to give women a sense of I-am-not-alone-in-my-thinking, or it's-not-just-me.
There are women and men who were attorneys and judges and police officers who made the justice systems more supportive of women, especially abused and raped women, and there were the people in communities who started women's shelters to give women and children a safe place to escape to.
There are women who started women's studies and women's history courses so there were forums for discussion once consciousness-raising groups became passe and so we wouldn't forget our past. There were organizations of volunteers who preserved women's history artifacts and birthplaces and important sites in women's history.
There are traditional organizations like the YWCA and LWV and AAUW and the Girl Scouts who have had women's and girl's concerns at the top of their agendas for decades.
There are all the local women and organizations who lobbied and petitioned and spoke and marched for the ERA and continue to do so today and the men and women who literally put their bodies between the clients of reproductive health clinics and the anti-abortion demonstrators who are there to harass them, to say nothing of the people who work at the clinics.
There are the women whose jobs are to ensure that women get equity in the workforce like the hundred's of Federal Women's Program Mangers p in the federal government. Their jobs also include training the total work force in prevention of sexual harassment and assisting women who have been the victims of sexual harassment, who train supervisors iin opening their minds to placing women in non-traditional jobs and assist women with the difficulties that come with being the women in those jobs. There are the Directors of Divsions on Women, or whatever the local and state agencies are called, who lobbied and educated to make sure that government funds and grants are available for programs assisting women and girls. There are the women elected officials who are also supportive in that legislation.
There are the individuals and organizations that enlighten girls and young women in assertive communications and leadership skills and public speaking skills and self-empowerment skills. There are thousands of women and men who act as mentors to young women in corporations and in small businesses so breaking the glass ceiling becomes more likely for them.
This is only a short list, I'm sure you can add a myriad of other examples to the list. You may question "Where would one start to do research on these 'drones'?" I have in my circle of friends and acquaintances someone that fits into each of the examples I have given, and I'm sure I am not unique, they are everywhere throughout the country. Please won't someone write that book?"
Jean
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Oh Jean, that is WONDERFUL! And yes, it has been, for me, 33½ years ago, in Manassas, Virginia; but I did put my body between women seeking help from a clinic and those who would deny them that precious right.
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My stacks of unread magazines are piling up, so I am trying to catch up in my spare moments rather then read the book I really want to get back to.
So bear with me that I am so far behind, but at lunchtime today I read an article in the March 11, 2013 The NEW YORKER. Pope on front in bathing suit and in hammock strung between 2 palm trees at seaside.
The MOST wonderful article about how much we women owe to Ruth Bader Ginsberg. I had no idea! No idea! She did the most amazing work for us BEFORE she became a supreme court justice. Basically, we owe almost EVERYthing to her! Who knew? I sure didn't, and I pride myself in keeping up.
If you get a chance, do read this article. It is called HEAVYWEIGHT and is by Jeffrey Toobin.
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Ruth Bader Ginzburg has always been a heroine of mine.She is brave, smart and keeps marching ahead.. Will read the article.
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Me too!
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Goody! I love this sharing!
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Whew. got through the house inspection yesterday. My townhouse is 9 years old and in Florida, that is close to the 10 year old rule, which makes it harder to insure. All is well, and the closing is either the 29 or 30th.. Hooray
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Did you read the article about what is happening underneath Florida that was in the March 18 The New Yorker? A lot of different dog breeds in winter clothing on the front. By David Owen about the sinkholes and the future of Florida. I read the whole thing and would SO be out of there yesterday, were I there at all, which thankfully I am not.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/03/18/130318fa_fact_owen
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I spent many years braless, but gravity has taken over and in my old age, I am back to finding comfortable bras.. No underwires.. lbut I confess that I adored high heels ( being short) and lamented after I broken my ankle and could no longer tolerate them..
I am still reading through all these posts...catching up if you will. But Steph's comment about enjoying heels due to her height forced me to jump in and add to her appreciation.
Being 5'3", I too wore 3 inch heels and enjoyed them. However, my ulterior motive put me eye-to-eye with many of my male coworkers and superiors.
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Marjafay "Am a little lopsided, but who cares."
Exactly my sentiments. If we happen to be lopsided on opposite sides (I'm missing left) we could walk together and even it out. ;D
I'll have to get newsweek.
Mabil: exactly! All these laws have the same descrimatory base. And they can be passed like weeds: get rid of one and three pop up.
Since I have both, I could walk between you and support you both. That sentence has dual meaning... ((((((hugs)))) for you both on that hard won victory.
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PAMELA: it's nice to read the old posts if you enjoy them, but don't wear yourself out! It's also just fine to jump in in the middle. we repeat ourselves all the time, so it doesn't matter if you do.
Looking forward to that walk!
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Ha! Ha! I never, ever thought of that angle of being able to look them in the eye. Good on you!
I was 5 foot 3½ inches like forever. Now I am 5'2". Ain't it awful!
But I really wish I had never worn the heels. I think we women suffer all kinds of problems later due to them. They throw our bodies out of kilter and do us a great deal of harm.
Vanity! (Oh, and I wore the heels with glee right up until 1987, when an orthopedic surgeon made me stop!)
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Now I get to enjoy my granddaughter who inherited her Nanas passion for heels.. So she sends me pictures when she gets new ones. referring to "killer heels" and I get to enjoy them and my feet don't hurt at the end of the day..
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Ha! Ha! I never, ever thought of that angle of being able to look them in the eye. Good on you!
I was 5 foot 3½ inches like forever. Now I am 5'2". Ain't it awful!
But I really wish I had never worn the heels. I think we women suffer all kinds of problems later due to them. They throw our bodies out of kilter and do us a great deal of harm.
Vanity! (Oh, and I wore the heels with glee right up until 1987, when an orthopedic surgeon made me stop!)
Heels shorten the Achilles tendon ???, need to verify if its that muscle. My doctor warned me of this issue and suggested I rotate flats and heels throughout the week, which I did. :P That was a time when doctors were gods in my eyes... ;)
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PAMELA: it's nice to read the old posts if you enjoy them, but don't wear yourself out! It's also just fine to jump in in the middle. we repeat ourselves all the time, so it doesn't matter if you do.
:) It was a wonderful leisure reading moment. ;D
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This is a great month for important women's birthdays; these are just 3 days worth:
April 3, 1934 - Jane Goodall, primatologist and conservationist, world's foremost authority on chimpanzees
April 4, 1928 - Maya Angelou, author, poet, civil rights activist, actress, read poem she composed at President Clinton's inauguration (1993)
April 5, 1901 (1968) - Hattie Alexander, pediatrician and microbiologist, identified and studied antibiotic resistance caused by random genetic mutations in DNA, first woman elected president of the American Pediatric Society (1964)
April 5, 1908 (1989) - Bette Davis, movie star, began with "Of Human Bondage" (1934) and "Dark Victory" (1939) and ended with "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane" (1962), won Academy Awards for "Dangerous" (1935) and "Jezebel" (1938)
April 5, 1938 (1981) - Lourdes Casal, poet and critic, born in Cuba, American citizen in 1962, organizer and activist, earned a Ph.D. for social work (1975), tried to build bridges for Cubans and other Americans
April 5, 1949 (1986) - Judith Resnik, engineer, astronaut, one of six qualified women chosen as mission specialists in 1984, second American woman in space, perished in the Challenger explosion
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WATCH CHARLIE ROSE ON PBS TONIGHT:
A discussion about the Women in the World Summit with Tina Brown, Editor-in-Chief of Newsweek and The Daily Beast; Zainab Salbi, Founder and CEO of Women for Women International and Shoma Chaudhury, managing editor of Tehelka.
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Jane Goodal, another heroine of mine. Oh to have the courage to leave it all and move to study an animal in its native habitat.. wow..
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Goodal is a heroine of mine, too! Sorry I didn't see the post in time to watch Charlie Rose.
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You can go to Charlie's website and ask them to sign you up for email notices as to what each show, Monday through Friday, is to be. I love his show, but I came to hate waiting up to watch it only to find it was a topic I have no interest in. So I signed up, and am ever so pleased. I get a simple email every day telling me precisely what that night's show will be. That way I don't miss Judi Dench and Paul Krugman and other people I simply love to hear. Try it! You can always unsubscribe if you don't like it. I have had his service for years now.
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Busy weekend with another son and wife here to help.. My garage is all packed up.. Hooray...
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We "women of a certain age" have all seen pictures of Jackie Kennedy in her wedding dress, but didn't know that it was designed and made by an African-American woman from Alabama who designed and made dresses for the Auchincloss family for a decade. I just read Mrs Lincoln's Dressmaker, the story of Elizabeth Keckley's life almost exactly 100 yrs before Ann Lowe and i recommend it.
I also read today this story about Nellie Taft's decades long campaign to get the Japanese cherry trees to line the basin in D.C., and the unnamed women who saved them when the Jefferson Memorial was being built and Lady Bird Johnson's expanding them. If you've ever appreciated their beauty, you'll enjoy reading how they are a result of women's energies.
http://blogs.archives.gov/prologue/?p=11922
http://saintssistersandsluts.com/nellie-taft-eliza-scidmore-and-japanese-cherry-trees/
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[…]
http://blogs.archives.gov/prologue/?p=11922
http://saintssistersandsluts.com/nellie-taft-eliza-scidmore-and-japanese-cherry-trees/
Thank you for the share. These historical stories were fascinating. Washington DC was my childhood stomping ground; enjoyed mostly through Girl Scout (Brownie) troop trips and school fields trips. My daughter’s 8th Grade Graduation trip was to Washington DC, in which she enjoyed immensely.
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Did you ever go to Camp May Flather down in Virginia with a group from D.C. Girl Scouts? I ask because I did, in the summer of 1942, and just wondered if you might have been there at the same time.
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Did you ever go to Camp May Flather down in Virginia with a group from D.C. Girl Scouts? I ask because I did, in the summer of 1942, and just wondered if you might have been there at the same time.
No, never went there with the troop. And my mother was born in 1943, dad in 1937, and I was born 1962. :D However I have paternal family in Buckingham Co., Dillwyn, VA. Several maternal cousins live in the Leesburg area. I use to spend summer breaks with my paternal grandparents on their shared pig/tobacco farm. I fondly remember my red stained shirts and shorts… :P
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I used to commute to work past the cherry trees, ealy in the morning, before the tourists got there. We would usually stop and spend some time with them. Love them.
Cherry blossoms fall.
The wild duck
Parts the petals with her breast.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I loved the stories of how the Japanese cherry trees were planted there. I have been to the festival several times many years ago. Like an umbrella of blossoms in some areas. Jackie Kennedy... ah the fashion icon of my young married life. She always looked just right to me..
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"She always looked just right to me.. "
Except when I saw her one day (before JFK was president) in Georgetown a few blocks from where she lived, eight months pregnant with JohnJohn, creeping unsteadily down an almost vertical hill wearing six inch hells. My friends and I wanted to rush up and help her but were afraid secret service men would come out of nowhere and shoot us.
We held our breathes til she got to the bottom.
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I find myself wondering where the National Outrage is.
Why is it that the citizens of this fantabulous nation, the majority of whom care mightily about what happens to one another when bad times hit, and favor laws to protect themselves and others from the predations of such bad times, are not standing up on their tippy, tippy toes and screaming bloody blue murder and threatening to replace every senator or representative who is refusing even to let anything COME TO A VOTE? We the people of these united states have ourselves a couple of gridlocked legislative bodies that are worse than hopelessly constipated, all because their purses are brimming with the illbegotten lucre of special interests who own them, lock, stock and barrel. Which, given these times and some of the issues, is not a bad simile.
But where, oh where, is the outrage?
Steph, I read where your governor has cut off Medicaid to anyone making more than $3,200 a year! And has cut out mental health funding, all sorts of programs for children and single mothers, even the shots REQUIRED to get into the school system! He has cut out and set adrift and caused to join the huge crowds of homeless inumerable more tens of thousands. But he has not forgotten his chief priority in this life of his: There are EIGHTEEN anti-abortion bills up for the legislature, and he will sign them all into law. Fer sure!
Where is the SHAME of the American people?
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Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC featured film clips of 82 year old Frances Perkins speaking about the fight to bring into law Social Security. While struggling, she spoke at a tea party the hostesses husband a Supreme Court Justice advised her to use the right to taxation. So Social Security and Obama Care are using the same reasoning. He will have more of her film clip tomorrow evening - Thursday. Their is a very good biography about her.
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No, the Florida governor is more interested in making Florida into a totally business state. Our legislature is more of the anti abortion people.. Scott is horrible however about our poorer citizens and should be ashamed of himself.
But what do you expect when you elect a man who made his money on medical things.. and got in trouble with medicare about managed care. Bah..
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But I ask again, do the majority of the citizens of Florida fervently believe that stopping a woman from having an abortion is the most important function of their elected governing bodies?
Why is this intrusiion into the private body health of any one woman MORE IMPORTANT than the safety of the citizenry as a whole?
Are we to put all of our minds and efforts into stopping the individual rights to privacy of a woman and forget about policing our streets and pathways? Providing firefighters for our homes and businesses? What about threats from other nations? Oh, wait foreign country causing trouble, wait! We have to pass more laws against abortion!
If a woman calls 911 from her home in Florida, in fear for her life because of an intruder, she may well be raped and left for dead before the much reduced police force can respond to that call. But oh boy, if she turns up pregnant from that rape, the law will be all over her to make absolutely sure she does not have an abortion. Nope! A child must be born from that rape, regardless of the woman's life circumstances. The birth of this child is the most important thing in this WORLD!
But no funds available for the woman's mental health, or the child's, or the shots required by law, or the pre natal or post natal or post post natal care and feeding and education. Once born alive, the child can then wither away and die for all these legislators care!
I am trying to figure the common sense here, and I just cannot follow the thinking. It does not compute.
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Good Early Afternoon Everyone! I just woke up, please excuse any typos…
{…} even the shots REQUIRED to get into the school system!
{…} But no funds available for … or the shots required by law, {…}
FYI: Vaccinations in all but two states can be waivered, religiously or philosophically: Mississippi and West Virginia are the two that possess no waiver.
CDC School Vaccines and Requirements: http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/schoolsurv/schImmRqmtReport.asp (http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/schoolsurv/schImmRqmtReport.asp)
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Not talking about whether individual parents can REFUSE to have their children vaccinated. Talking about the fact that Florida used to provide these shots, which are definitely recommended and recorded by all school systems before children are enrolled, to those parents without the means to pay for them. Now they do not. These shots will not be given to those children whose parents do not have the money to pay for them. They can jolly well die of whooping cough or tetanus or whatever!
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Florida will do anything not to pay taxes. A truly remarkably stupid decision, but this is a conservative state with way too many older people, who see no reason they should pay for anything. I am older of course, but feel we should all pay our fair share.. I live here because my husband adored the climate and my two sons live here. Not a choice of mine.
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I have read that the very rich, the ones other than of the Bill Gates mindset, that is, honestly believe Life is a matter of the survival of the fittest (Darwin in $) and the poor should perish rather than create more poor. They (the poor) obviously do not have what it takes to survive in this world! If they did, they would be rich, too! Or at least making a living.
But if you are coming along just fine, working to buy a house and a car and a future for your children, and you and your husband lose your jobs in this dreadful economy which collapsed under massive efforts to make the rich even richer through crooked hedge funds, and you lose your house and your car and become homeless and sick, well tough! Too bad, but you are just numbers on a piece of paper and you lost the lottery, as it were, and you and your children SHOULD NOT survive!
Blows my mind, it does. But this is, so I am told, how they comfort themselves.
Well, on the other side of the ledger, more women hold jobs than men. More women are graduating from college and grad schools. More women are becoming doctors and lawyers and accountants. Men may become like drones and be pretty useless in our society, except for their sperm, and women will need fewer and fewer children as they (the women) take over the running of this world.
Maybe women will vote to give struggling women a boost up and let the useless masses of males experience non-survival!
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To me, but probably not to them, the conservatives seem to have this mind set,, why else not tax the rich a bit more,, why else try to privatize medicare..why else butcher Medicaid.. I have friends and one son who are firmly conservative and very very loud with it. I try hard to not bring up anything around this son, since I truly don't want to argue with him, but I admit to not understanding why he does not want me to have a liberal opinion. I don't begrudge him his conservative one.
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From what I've seen, many conservatives are somewhat like radical evangelical Christians. They believe they are the only ones with the "truth."
Marj
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That has been my experience, as well. Me, I love to hear other human beings express their opinions, and then how they have come to believe that opinion is correct. I have learned so much about Life by listening to how others have seen and lived it. Feel I do not and cannot know all the answers as to "Why We Are Here" and so forth, but that I can and should explore all the trails leading to ever clearer possibilities as to such answers. Beware the words "heresy" and "dogma." These come from the mouths of old men who want to condemn any thoughts that pop up "outside the box" of what they have already declared "absolute." Oh yes, there is another word to avoid being trapped by.
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Change and women. Another discussion here made me mentally go back to when I was in high school and college.. That was in the late 50's.. How life has changed for women in just my lifetime.. I remember a friend, who owned her own business,was quite successful, etc. She went out and tried to buy a car when she needed a new one and they would not deal with her until she brought her husband back to sign with her. Amazing.. when I think of it. She was furious.. It was her money, her business.. Now it would never happen or at least I hope not.
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I think young women of today who are NOT college educated, and therefore have not had a deep study of history, simply do not KNOW that traditionally a father OWNED his daughter until such time as he made an arrangement with a man or his family and married her off and she AND ALL HER PROPERTY then became the property of the husband. If her father and husband both died, she became the property of her oldest son. If no son, then of her oldest daughter's husband. If none of these, then of her oldest nephew, and so on and so on.
The claim was that this was for the "protection" of the woman.
But it was not. Men honestly thought of females as liabilities.
And, as I say, the young women today are clueless about this. I keep thinking: "If only they knew! If only they could wrap their minds around this and accept it, then maybe they would realize the medieval treatment of women elsewhere today was once our way. Maybe they would begin to fight back right here."
One of my granddaughters thrilled my heart when she was married several years ago. She announced she was walking down the aisle by herself. "NO ONE is giving ME away! I am not a piece of property, I am a person!" She adores my son Chris, her daddy. But she saw the history and decided to refuse to allow it to be a part of her ceremony. Her contract was to be between her and her husband, NOT between her husband and her father!
In Ancient Greece, where the name democracy first originated, it meant citizenship for an elite class of free men, and excluded slaves and women from political participation. So did our own constitution here in the United States. You had to be a white, male property owner in order to have a voice in our government.
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Yes, our founding fathers believed in being a property owner. I suspect because that is why the families came here in the first place.. But the Dutch here in the mid 1600's in Manhattan (New Amsterdam) and upstate did not subscribe. Women controlled their own property, were ship owners and sometimes Captains, owned large plantations.. When the English took over, that changed, but at the very beginning the Dutch were very different.
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Scroll down to where Helen begins her comments. When she is done, scroll down just a little to Margaret's. They are older than most of us, and don't mince a word!
They have the ability to make me laugh, and today, as on every day, that is a good thing.
http://margaretandhelen.com/
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I love, LOVE Margaret and Helen. They haven't posted anything in quite a while, though.
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They are great, thanks for sharing their blog site, i didn't know about it. LOL!
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This is wonderful!!!
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Free-Audio-Video/Business/Leadership-and-Management/Sheryl-Sandberg-on-Lean-In-Women-Work-and-the-Will-to-Lead/46978?utm_source=FROTD&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Free%2BResource%20of%20the%20Day
If the link doesn't work its a video on LearnOutLoud.com, then type in Lean In or Sheryl Sandberg. The discussion is well worth the listening time. I sent it to all the younger adults i know, men and women, not that i think more then a few will listen or read it. One of them returned a reply that her 21/2 yr old is very bossy. I said "Stop calling her bossy, or letting others call her bossy, and tell them she is ASSERTIVE."
I have to get her book, altho it's past the time for me to put her recommendations in play, i'll enjoy reading it and then give it to the young women and men i know. I feel as though i did put a lot of the concepts to work when i was a Federal Women's Program Mngr for Dept of Army. That was the only job other than being a managment trainer that i could possibly have had at D of Army. ;D People who knew anything about me gasped when they heard i was going to work for D of Army. "Really?" Then I told them i was working for the women who worked for D of A and they calmed down.
I did think as i was listening to the two women talk about trying to do "it all" and feeling guilty bcs the kid didn't have on a green shirt on St Patrick's Day, or not speaking up, or sitting on the side of the room in meetings, or not asking questions of authority "Didn't any of you have Mothers who were feminists!?!"
On her blog www.leanin.org there is a terrific statement by Condalizza Rice about speaking up, asking questions.
This may be the time for RENEWING the discussion that we were having in the seventies. Some how some of the next generation have lost the concepts and Sandberg is opening them up again.
Jean
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This world grows crazier by the very minute. Check this out:
http://jezebel.com/terrifying-public-high-school-speaker-if-you-take-birt-472610594
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I love Margaret and Helen, but I am on the notify list and have not seen anything for a while. Will check it out onmy bookmarks.
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Oh Dear! She can look in my eyes and tell if i'm taking b.c.!?! It would be only sad that she is so dillusional if she wasn't making speeches to others. Unfortunately, some young people will believe her. Who is hiring this woman to talk to other students? Is there no reasonableness by authorities?
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I know nothing about this other than some scanty news reports and what my children are telling me is appearing in the viral tech driven world they live in.
This is the skinny as I HEAR it, but do not know. I am hoping it will hit the main stream news soon.
Someone in the administrative department asked this woman, who is from the world of fundamentalist Christianity, to speak to the student body of this West Virginia High School about abstinence. She also condemned all types of birth control and told a number of rather wild and way out there untruths about these.
One Senior girl, who has already been accepted at Wellesley College, complained to the Principal (I hear; I do not know) and was surprised and appalled to find herself castigated and called all sorts of names and threatened with loss of her scholarship to Wellesley and having her reputation ruined.
So this teenager went to THE PRESS. Hurrah!
And Wellesley says she is JUST the type of young woman they want on their campus.
You must please understand that all of my reporting is without witnesses or interviews or any foundation in fact. I am rather desperately hoping for more. You can Google more information.
http://theswellesleyreport.com/2013/04/wellesley-college-stands-behind-incoming-freshman-who-spoke-out-in-west-virginia/
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http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/high-school-senior-is-online-hero-after-protesting-abstinence-only-assembly-183211021.html
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Ah, we have a lot of that type of woman in central Florida. They spend their lives harassing the local libraries and the school board about books.. clubs, etc.
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Very depressing story on the front of this morning's Washington Post newspaper. About food stamps and retirement communities in Florida. Seems a lot of these old people (not sneering at age here, I am nearly 84) have lost their retirement funds and are hungry, but too proud to sign up for the food stamps they are entitled to. They don't believe in "government handouts!"
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And in the April 22 The New Yorker I see a review of a book titled HONOR, by Elif Shafak. The title refers to a woman's murder at the hands of her relatives or with their approval.
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So called Honor killings are horrid.. and all done in the name of religion, which makes me very wary of muslims, who believe this sort of nonsense. Goes back to women as property, not humans.
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they even women respond, she is a shrine to the family name and reputation she is almost like a goddess kept safe that she must cooperate and like a goddess remain in her safe nook. So how do you get around that?
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By saying that if the woman's life is so SACRED and if the men in the family are there to PROTECT her, then how is it that there are many instances of girls being sent to a store by their mothers and set upon by a gang of men and raped and then killed by her own father and brothers because her "fall" and brought dishonor to the family?
How can it be that this obedient daughter of the family, who in no way asked for this terrible event, is KILLED for the family?
Haven't they, the father and brothers, BETRAYED the trust she had in them?
They must be brought to reason this stuff out and see the terrible injustice they do.
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A woman (a female) is not a person in these societies. She is a piece of property. And she has all the value of spoiled milk if she has been raped. She is no longer a pure virgin and she cannot be sold as such to be a bride. The family (the males) can no longer make any future profit from having kept and fed and clothed her; albeit she has been a slave in the kitchen and the home with her mother and sisters. So, for the honor of the besmirched clan, kill her. That both cleanses the family honor and gets rid of an unprofitable burden.
If only females could be seen as HUMANS, these dreadful deeds might come to a halt. But people can only see things the way they have been taught from infancy that they are.
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MaryPage I hear you and I am also aware this is our 20th century western viewpoint that is judging - we cannot change others all we can do is try to understand and learn - this part of the world does not share our values that are not even fully shared in the west - we can rail all we want but till we know the depth and extent of the values that are at the bottom of different behavior we cannot consider alternatives - it is not only in the treatment of women this part of the world lives as if in the 15th century it is in many aspects of life and so to use our values to measure their behavior is not fair to them or to ourselves - to ourselves because is justifies our avoiding the work it takes to understand from their experiences, values and viewpoint the differences.
Why have so many more women today chosen - not those that are forced by those who live where they have a choice and young unmarried women choose to wear the Hijab - a sign of being set apart and treated by the family as the kingpin to their reputation. There is far more here than simply men wanting to keep women as property.
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Wow it appears the covering of the body all for face and hands is how the interpretation is carried out of Mohammad saying men should talk to their wives behind a hijab.
It seems there were two other holy books written after the Qur'an that are more specific to covering the body - it all goes to the basic religious idea of men and women should not use their eyes towards one another.
Wikipedia has a good page on the culture of the hijab http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab
I think it is difficult for us to feel what it is like to live in a country where the religion is the law and leadership/government and so I am thinking it is going to take a huge change that when you look at it Spain is still more of a Church orientated government than most other democracies in Europe but it was the French Revolution that broke that inter-relationship of government and church. Is that where it starts for women to be equals and receive the respect that goes with dignity? It seems the churches east and west keep the heels of men in the culture of early history.
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well here is a great link about what we can do - http://womensvoicesforchange.org/
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I set a dear friend who is a retired Roman Catholic priest back on his heels recently. He has the attitude that we must all support Mother Church and be obedient to Her Laws, the laws, obviously, of God, even if we do not agree with them.
I told him there is a huge difference between the Church and the Faith and the Church has let us down. We gave you our children, I said. Our trust in you was absolute and we gave up our children to you gladly. We were so proud if some were chosen to be altar boys. To serve the Church. But priests of the Church raped our children at will. Raped them! And the Church betrayed our trust. They hushed it up. They transferred the priests to other parishes. They paid money where suits were threatened. They did not beg forgiveness of our children. They did not publicly admit their sin against our children. They have never shown an honorable face of contrition to our children. I want the nuns to win their battle against the Vatican. I want women priests and women in the seats of power helping to make the rules.
He was astonished. Not one single woman had come forward and said these things to him. I went on for over an hour, assuring him my feelings are not transient and are typical of women everywhere.
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Way to go, MaryPage! I'm sure few people have said that to a priest's face, so maybe they don't know the feelings of women.
Jean
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Go getem MaryPage... The church does not seem to like to admit how many priests are there because it is a good hiding place for their problems.
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The way I see it, the only folks who can make the appropriate changes are the Bishops and the Vatican (Pope and the Curia [the government of the church]) because it is going to require a look at the identity and work of a priest in relationship to how he is not expected to live his vows.
We know that sexual abuse is only a means or weapon of expressing power over - when there is powerlessness then there is war or, sexual abuse or, accepting the loss of power and sinking into oblivion with other addictions from drink to drugs to gambling etc.
Paul IV became Pope during Vatican II he took three important commissions off the table and would not allow them to be discussed - Family, Population Control and Birth Control - revamping the Curia - the Definition of the Identity, Ministry and Life of Priests.
The concept of a priest who is supposed to be consolers of souls, guides for the faithful in all of the most difficult moments in life, act by the mandate of and in the person of Christ the Head in today's world with the media a daily challenge so that priests no longer have the bully pulpit to guide - when they try to empower the poor they are knocked down by the Vatican, who like most governments have their bread buttered by the wealthy.
The recommendations to carry out a priestly life have not changed in hundreds of years - how does a parish priest who must deal with maintaining buildings and staff, the politics of the community like any business leader with a school to run and parishioners asking him for the help that often means going to the leaders in the local government, have time to spend each day in "an environment of contemplative silence, reflecting on their proper vocation which is both gift and ministry: a gift for which to be grateful and a ministry to discover and appreciate."
Or how about as he counsels families dealing with a deformed infant or their child who is terminally ill or workers who are systematically not paid or families torn apart because of violence or communities beset by a drug war or even teaching knowing you are in competition with what is learned on TV and in the streets with no tools other than your voice to make a dent and yet, in response the priest is supposed to "systematically study theology of the sacrament of Orders, as a necessary undertaking."
The priest needs a systematic study of therapy techniques and how to persuade justice and how to assist families with life today, not in a hamlet or as farm peasants. The nuns were cut off during Vatican II and now the Vatican is trying to reel them back where as, the priests had the heavy hand of the Vatican following their every move with those in the Vatican having no experience for their life other than the safe, controlled communality, fraternity and highly political life of Vatican City.
And so to me sexual abuse by priests can be controlled, like any addiction but, it does not solve the problem. There will continue to be clergy who express their anger in their powerless role to make a real difference for those they are supposed to give care, teach, maintain buildings, salaries. and play a political role in the community to get anything accomplished.
On Celibacy this is what they have to contend with --- Remember celibacy in only within the Roman Catholic tradition not any of the other rites like the Coptic, Syrian, Byzantine, and was established as a mandate by Rome in 1054.
Here in modern words is their directive - "Regarding celibacy, we recall that it ought to be accepted and seen as both gift and charism. It is appraised as such by all of Tradition and is providentially received in the Latin Church as a necessary condition for approaching priesthood. It is seen as a precious gift which the Lord has made to the Church. An appreciation of its biblical, theological and pastoral bases, along the lines drawn up by the recent ecclesial Magisterium ought to be an integral part of study and teaching on the identity and spirituality of priesthood. Those who are called to this charism live it with joy in a spirit of gratitude to the Lord and of total dedication to their brothers and sisters."
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Horrified to hear Kentucky allows 4 year olds to own and shoot guns. Real guns made in sizes just for children!
I thought it was nationwide that you had to have a LICENSE to own a gun and it was regulated, like owning a license to drive a car or practice law.
But no. You have to go to hell and back to get licensed to represent a client in court, but are free to kill someone with your darling little gun before you go to kindergarten!
I do so very much look forward to getting off this planet inhabited by my so very confused, lunatic species.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Give a four year old a gun and he shoots his baby sister. What are people thinking. Ignorant..
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Oh Steph you are thinking from the viewpoint of a more crowded area of the country - kids are shown more gun safety in rural areas than any buying a gun in a city or small town where there is no gun culture - there are acres and acres of wild and there are still many a family who does not shop at the butcher store. I lived in Kentucky for over 12 years. Most of it - especially the eastern half is more empty than the area where you have a house in NC. In Kentucky there are still small communities that you can only get out when the creeks are low since there are no roads and the creek bed becomes the road out.
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In Wyoming anyone can own a gun but must take a safety course before applying for a hunting license. I believe if you asked any parent the night before an accidental gun shooting if they had instructed their child about gun safety they would say Yes.
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A FOUR YEAR OLD????
Do you really think of it as a sensible and SAFE thing to give a 4 year old a gun that can KILL people and tell them the rules and expect their vast life experience to make them UNDERSTAND them?
That to me is insanity, pure and simple. No excuse. A four year old is a 4 year old.
No boy should be handed a gun before he is 12 and beginning to really understand the world and his place in it and what responsibility is.
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Then children should probably be prevented from ranging cattle as well since kids help out before they are in first grade and in some cases they better have a gun with them. It is just a different mindset and until we are in the shoes of other folks we can only use our ideas of what is right and wrong and how people live. What works in some areas of this country does not work in others -
I am hearing and reading how those in the northeast are wanting a Federal mandate because they are concerned that a state law will not prevent guns from being purchased in those states where the laws are not limiting - and so you make a Federal law and then we have another cartel that will grow quickly in Mexico and like trafficking drugs guns will be uncontrolled with no tax revenue and no oversight to their manufacture.
The news is filled with who has a gun because of the young men who have caused death and havoc in this nation at schools, movie theaters, restaurants, parades - If you notice the newspapers are now filled with stories of how guns played a part in a crime or accident - While nothing is written about how cars that cause 20 times the deaths nor, how often the use of a gun saved someone or, how when we took guns away from a particular population they had no way to defend themselves and children are among those shot and killed e.g.
- 300 unarmed Lakota men, women and children killed in 1890 -
- Armed volunteers killed around 150 Indian men, women and children 1832 -
- 65 people including 35 women and children in San Antonio 1840 -
- Miners killed 300 Wintu Indians near Old Shasta, California 1851 -
- A posse of settlers attack and kill 450 Tolowa Indians during prayer ceremony in California
- White settlers killed between 200 and 250 Wiyot women, children and elders in Humboldt County, California 1860 -
- Colorado Militia attacked a peaceful village of Cheyenne, killing at least 160 men, women and children at Sand Creek 1864 -
- 18+ Chinese killed by mob violence in California 1871
- Indian scouts killed 76 Yavapai Indians men, women and children in a cave in Arizona's Salt River Canyon 1872 -
- Several wagonloads of Sioux killed by South Dakota Home Guard militiamen, while visiting a white friend in Buffalo Gap. 1890
- 19 of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families killed in Colorado 1914
Not to say there were no gun battles where both sides citizens, union members, police or militia all had guns - I am simply showing how when guns are limited to certain groups the power is unequal -
As for children - there are children that go to school in an environment where they have no need to protect themselves from wildlife or to shoot dinner and then there are others where that is a way of life so that a national attitude is not something any of us can judge unless we have lived in the shoes of these families.
Frankly I do not know the answer to city violence - I do not see limiting guns will stop the violence since it will be as easy to get a gun as it is now to get crack cocaine which illegal. And these young men who have created these shocking unbelievable mass murders - there are quite a few of them now - there must be something at the bottom of what allows a very few young man out of all the thousands in the same age range with as much anger to commit these crimes.
Street violence we know has something to do with either the drug culture or gangs who create guerrilla warfare in their community but these middle class kids - what is this about. Thousands of teens own or have access to guns and do not use them on other people.
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Not on subject, but does anyone remember Sexty Sixty, who is Lorraine.. B----. She is on Facebook and seems to be havge a recurrence of cancer. She successfully beat Breast Cancer some years ago on Senior Net, but it is back or seems to be. A nice funny lady.
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Do not remember ever hearing of her, Steph.
Re Women's Issues, you will want to read "A Quiet Strength: Inspirational Stories of Older American Women" by Joanne Alloway.
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I know that MaryZ keeps up with her on facebook and some others from senior net do as well.
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Steph, the cancer Lorraine is dealing with this time is in her lungs, I think. She had a bronchoscopy last week, but I don't know much more than that.
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Remember...
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/402834_346525852095283_512427511_n.jpg)
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Followed by the basket full of ironing.
And ladies did not wear slacks, no matter their workload.
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I used to dry clothes on the line, but never had a piece of timber. Just a narrow stick with a notch.. Actually I love the smell, but have lived years in Florida, where it is rarely permitted.
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I recall my Mom had a pole with a notched point on it...and I remember the days when the line would break, the clothes would fall...and she'd have to do many of them all over again. The "good old days"...yeah, right!!
I assume you've all heard of the 3 young women held captive for 10 years in a house in Cleveland and one who had a child during that time:
http://www.windstream.net/news/read/category/Top%20News/article/ap-2_women_missing_for_a_decade_found_alive-ap
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I remember doing it - diapers and all - no pole to hold up the line, though. I had the iron T-poles with several lines between them. I haven't had a clothesline or dried clothes outside since I was able to afford a dryer. And I quit ironing when they invented permanent press. ;D
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Depressing this morning onwomen.. Sanford of South Carolina got elected.. After he lied in public deceived his wife and children and shamed himself. Ah, the joys of a career politician.Shame on his constituents. Then the three women held captive.. What are the men..Animals from a jungle.. To steal a womans life.. To force her into having a childn against all that's normal..
and finally the Armed Services announcing that sexual abuse is rising steadily in the Armed Services.. We have not gone far from the jungle.
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Did you see the pic of the Lt.Col in charge of investigating sexual assault was himself arrested for sexual assault last weekend after an "incidence" in a parking lot.
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Yesterday was an amazing news day for women.
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And it's not like military men haven't been taught "better." Shortly after i went to work for Dept of Army in the mid-EIGHTIES, i was trained to be a trainer in Prevention of Sexual Harrassment. From that point on all army and navy personnel, military and civilian were given training in POSH. I don't know what was happening in the other services, but my guess is they were supposed to be doing it also.
I was stunned when i heard about the Navy blow-up in the nineties at the "tailhook" conference. Apparently the Army was the only service really taking it seriously. I think it is indicative of the still prevalent idea that women are on earth for men's sexual gratification, when men want it, and women are "teases", and are likely to lie about assaults, and are still a joke among men. And even women will adopt the attitude that "boys will be boys." i do believe that it is men's responsibility to control themselves, but i also am appalled at the way women are dressing these days. It's difficult sometimes to tell the streetwalkers for those who aren't. Of course, in the military everyone is wearing a uniform and it's very evident that there sexual assault is all about power.
We really have the officer corps to blame for the prevention program not working. Whatever the command emphasizes is what gets taken care if in the military. It's unbelievable to me that general officers can override a decision of guilt and punishment. It has always been a problem that women have to report incidents up their chain of command, often to friends of their predators. But if the men in the chain would make it clear that that behavior was unacceptable, it could be vanquished. We love Top Gun-type stories, or praise Seal Team Six-type operations, but that kind of arrogance and superior power attributes to those men carrying that attitude outside the operations field. I suppose it takes a very mentally healthy man to be able to turn that on and off, but if they thought it would jeopardize they're careers, they would be very careful about their behaviors. The Command is the unit that makes that happen.
Jean
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I figure the people get what they deserve when they vote, so, disappointed deeply about Sanford, I sort of feel what the hell.
But the Air Force thing has me crazy.
That, plus the 3 kidnapped sex slaves, show how far we have NOT come in this country. In this culture. In this "civilization."
Hoorah for that wonderful senator from New York, Kirsten Gillibrand . Did you see and hear her dressing down those stupid, stupid male senators? They were saying the women were asking for it! Same old, same old.
I really was naive enough when I was young and doing all that work and demonstrating to believe I would be sitting on my laurels loving the taste of sweet victory by age 70. Here I am, 84 this month, and nothing much has really changed. Certainly most men's minds work in precisely the same patterns.
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I was in the Air Force during the Korean War. Remember that I was looked after -- warned about certain men. If a man drove you home and parked too long outside the barracks the Air Police came by to see if all OK. Different time.
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The kidnapped women in the neighborhood bother me.. Was no one ever in his house?? No noises, or screaming?? Did he keep them chained or something?? This is truly a weird situation..
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Steph we are always second guessing how we could miss any horror - victims hardly ever make sounds - just as you are not aware of the spouse battering in your own neighborhood - just as when you attend a large gathering we do not stop and think and realize that between 2 and 4 according to which statistic you use, but 2 to 4 out of every 10 women present were or are still sexually abused. Most victims are trying to control their circumstances and think if they cause little problem and quietly go along they will fare better - unfortunately, most authorities see this behavior as cooperative rather then self protective.
Since the guy who helped release the girls, battered his wife and was charged with the crime a few years earlier I bet it was a neighborhood where folks minded their own business if and when they heard anything from any house. However, the neighbors that did know these guys said it was a quiet house and they were quiet guys so it sounds to me like when the girls were young teens they were too frightened to make any sound and later they had no idea if there was anyone to hear them and they probably turned inward always trying to figure out how to control their situation.
My gut tells me the one girl got the nerve to do what she did because I bet she saw her daughter as the next victim and she was not going to let that happen if she had to die in the attempt.
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Yes, I too believe that she looked at her daughter, saw victim and acted.. One of the women seems to be quite ill.. And very mistreated. If he really did the things she said to cause a miscarriage, he deserves the death penalty..
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This situation is going to create a major discussion about abortion and could be disatrous for Roe v. Wade. If he is charged w/ the murder if the fetuses, what implication does that have for legal abortions? I heard one person say on the first day of knowing he had beat her to abort that Ohio has some sort of law to charge people who cause the killing of a fetus. ............ Ohhhhhh, is this 1971? ........is nothing ever settled?
I guess not, just saw that the House Repubs are bringing up repeal of Obamacare once more - 39 or 40th time!!!! Is the country just going nuts!?? I have said often "the aliens have tainted the water" as a joke, but i'm getting more and more serious about it.
Jean
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Republicans since the 1930s have been trying to revoke any social initiative that Roosevelt enacted - they just have more money behind them now and they bought the media - all the national TV stations are owned by Republicans and they have been nipping at the heals of PBS pulling their financial support for the last 16 years. And with the debacle on wall street making them richer they can support any candidate that is to their liking. Have you noticed those elected to the House and now even the Senate no longer have a law degree in their resume - not that they needed a law degree it is just that only the smartest folks get into law school.
I think some of this is tit for tat - in that there is a big social divide between both coasts and the rest of the nation and with the greater population on the coasts the attitudes are not taking into account how people live in the interior of the nation and so they get their back up and become more and more conservative.
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I think it would help a lot if we just quit allowing the baboon brains to hold elected office.
But the males of our species insist upon playing by the rules of gorillas and other apes.
Fight other males for the privilege of OWNING females.
Kill the young of the other males, so only your seed will spread out over territories.
Allow any sort of boorish behavior on the part of rogue males, but cuff or kill any females who show the least bit of independence.
WHEN are the male heads of the Joint Chiefs and the Department of Defense going to stop thinking about protecting their officers and non-commissioned officers and closing ranks around them when they are accused of sexual assault, and instead think about the ACCUSERS? Do any of them have daughters? I know, I know. The male does not rush to protect his daughter out of love for her, but out of anger that another male has approached her without his, the father's, permission!
Women take this to be parental love, but it most often is not. It is, instead, another very primitive instinct: "get your hands off my property!"
We would have a much better and safer armed services if brutish men who drink too much and assault women were removed. Weeded out. We DO NOT NEED THEM. And have the chiefs ever considered that such men are much, much bigger security risks? Drunk and disorderly, they may say anything in the wrong ear. And tell national secrets to female spies in order to get sexual favors. Decent sober men who would not dream of insulting women verbally or physically are the ones most likely to safeguard our country's secrets.
But no, the moment there is a complaint, the woman complaining becomes an unwanted problem. The male beast must be protected at all costs.
I am very proud of our local DA who, when asked by the Pentagon to turn over the officer in charge of investigating sexual assaults when he was drunk and disorderly in a parking lot recently and grabbed an unknown to him woman by her breasts and buttocks, refused to do so. Which is the right of any non-military law officer. But in this case, the chief law official IS A WOMAN. So he will be tried in a civilian court! Woo hoo!
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In case they are not telling you the whole story wherever you live, here it is. Do, please, read it all and you will see what I am talking about. July 18 he goes to a civilian court!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/military-could-learn-from-cops-in-sexual-assault-cases/2013/05/09/2b185ccc-b8a1-11e2-b94c-b684dda07add_story.html
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To get back to Cleveland, the deliberate beating and torture of her should not be construed as akin to legal abortion. Has no relationship. The intent here could be to murder her as well and should be prosecuted as such.
The Armed Forces attract violent men.. It is probably hard to weed them out.
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Again, the whole abortion matter is a headline issue because of men. It is they who jump up and down and carry on about it as though fixing this world so that no female of any age or infirmity or life situation could ever, ever, ever abort a fetus and miscarriages would all be examined carefully and legally by law officers to ascertain there has been no breach of the laws pertaining to the bodies and wombs of females, is the one and only question of great importance pertaining to the safety and well-being of this nation and the world; guns being the next in order.
Real foreign affairs and ecological dangers and engineering deficiencies and capital budgets and educational opportunities and police protection and oversight of laws and regulations hold no center of importance in their blighted little brains. Keep each and every female from ever aborting, and you have settled all the questions and problems of this Universe.
Dear God! I am just so SICK of their stupid statements and their emotional obsessions that convince them, without ever examining their thoughts or emotions for so much as a nanosecond, that control of women will settle EVERYthing and make them the triumphant alpha male.
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Ah possibly it is a genetic problem..
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Several thoughts run thru my mind this morning:
First, for those of you who have acted as a mother to any child thruout your lives, i hope you hear from them today of how much they appreciate you.
Second, the law doesn't have to link Castro's behavior to the issue of abortion. If a judge decides that he caused the aborting of her fetuses and should be charged with the death of "persons" as a result of his behavior, that creates a whole new definition of "murder" and whether an abortion "murders" a person. That creates a whole different status to anyone who assists in a women aborting a fetus.
Thirdly, i saw an enlightening program last night on BOOKTV of a panel of ex-priests, a survivor, an attorney and a man who has written a book, Mortal Sins, about the church's scandal of child abuse. The conversation could have been about the sexual abuse in the military, by just changing the words "church" and "bishops" to "military" and "officers." the cultures are exactly the same, the brotherhoods are exactly the same, the cover-ups are exactly the same, tHe hierarchical autocratic structure is exactly the same, the friends of abusers act exactly the same to protect their careers or the careers of others!!!
One of the interesting statements came from the atty and supported by an ex-Benedictine monk was "at any time fifty percent of clergy are not being celibate, whether they are having a relationship w/ a women, a man or a child." The monk definitively said, stating names that i don't remember, that because many in the clergy have been KNOWN to have had sexual relationships by so many other clergy, that it can be used as "institutional blackmail." when a bishsop in Tenn told a priest he was firing him, the priest said "i know that you had sex with seminarians, so if you fire me, i'll out you." (not a direct quote). Other young seminarians had told him of an archbishop in NJ who took a group of young seminarians to his beach house on the weekends and one of the five of them would be requested to have sex w/ the bishop each weekend. Sounds like an officer taking young soldiers somewhere and requesting sex.
Jean
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Yep, agree fully Jean and the way the church reacted was a repeat of what you hear from nearly every perpetrator with the same 'not wanting to accept they did wrong' - their thoughts are never with the their victim only with their narcissistic selves that even after therapy they blame their behavior on their childhood experiences - problem, lots of kids are sexually abused as children but they do not all perpetrate their experience on other children. And all those who grew up with their moms being beat up don't go around beating up women.
Personally I think it is a testosterone issue - where ever their is a strong male culture there seems to be sexual abuse and sexual assaults - it seems to go hand and glove with aggressive sports and not only the military but any company that is male dominated with male aggressive competition at its heart. I am remembering a few years back when I was more involved volunteering at the battered women's center and attending sexual abuse 12 step meetings that the therapists in town had the most clients from the wives and children of servicemen, IBM employed and Ministers. In common they not only worked in a male dominated culture but they are moved around a lot so they had no roots, no calming hand of family, no deep connection to a community.
Moving and creating new community is different where you are trying to gain approval and acceptance so your secrets are kept secret which works for the perpetrator and also makes it harder for victims to find caring support that is not wanting to use the problem as a social chip - 'lookie here, I helped her' - or 'poor so and so' as the gossip is spread - they do not have knowledge of the victim's family so they can help knowing the victim's background nor can they approach a victim's trusted family member since the new friend knows neither.
Then reporting what happened to the police too often backfires and the victim is traumatized all over by those representing the perpetrator as they try to prove you wrong. The isolated, re-located family is pulled apart as the immediate family is split apart forced into separate living arrangements with mothers having to make a choice between being with a daughter and leaving her other children. Because it is the victim who is removed NOT the un-convicted perpetrator.
This is all very difficult - tear your gut apart difficult so that the public does not want to look at it - the public does not have the knowledge or skills to make it a quick, bam this is what you do to stop it or to protect and heal victims - there is no secure life at the end of the rainbow.
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Hah.today I get on, but yesterday seniorlearn seemed to not want to let me reply. Very weird. Bachman says she will move out of the state if they passed the bill for same sex marriage. Who wants to help her pack??
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I will! But moving out of the country would be better.
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:) The things that come out of that woman's mouth are beyond belief.
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I don't begin to understand people like her. I do think she will do literally anything to be in the papers.
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This world is full of crazy mixed-up people. What I have an even bigger, oh, MUCH bigger problem with is What Are The People Voting Her Into This Important Office THINKING OF???????
Now THAT, My Dears, is what scares the breath out of me!
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Well if you, like the stock market inverstor want stability and predictability you got it in her ::) :(
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Stability??? Uh...I don't think so, but that's just me. I think she's very unstable. Predictable? Yes!
If it's off the wall, if somehow anything anyone who is moderate or...gasp...to the left...might support, she's against it. The whole child becoming mentally retarded at age 12 after a vaccine that could save her life had to be the most incredibly stupid thing I've ever heard a politician say...uh...nope...not true...then there's the rape can't cause pregnancy....well...those have to be near the top of the 10 of Stupidest Things to Come Out of a Politician's Mouth.
jane
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Yes, that is why the wink - the whole thing about her is ludicrous. To me ridiculing someone is more powerful rather than being upset with them which gives them a certain amount of cache that they. and their views matter enough that we would give them our power by being upset - I just think the more of us who ridicule this kind of over the top appeal to voters, who are thinking as if 1893 rather than 2013 the more we can get others to see her as a ridiculous non- entity she will sooner have no power to sway opinions. For the most part we have accomplished this tactic with Sarah Palin.
OK if you are like me, I had to pick myself up off the floor and kept falling back down crawling for over a day after watching the PBS special this week on sexual crimes in the military - so finally, we have Senators doing something - here is a link to the Bill - put together by Senators Franken, Blumenthal, Gillibrand, and Boxer - They need our support.
http://www.barbaraboxer.com/petitions/MSA?sc=KG_msa
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Sexual crimes?? Sounds like they really are committing them.What a mess for the military.When will they learn.
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I'm not too surprised about the leaders of the prevention of sexual abuse being abusers. Being assigned to such a position, or to the Equal Opportunity Office is not a good career move, in fact the least capable, men in particular, are often assigned to that office because they want to get them "out of the way." they are often not the brightest bulb in the pack. They are not assigned to those positions because they have a passion for assissting people or care at all about equality or sexual abuse.
Barb, you weren't in the way of those tornados, were you?
Jean
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No harm - I am fine - they were north of me. Austin is just south of Tornado alley by about 30 miles. We do get them but not the real damaging kind. Had one a couple of years ago that twisted the branches of 3 trees in the backyard into a swirl - better the trees than the corner of my house.
Been trying to locate any teaching that is used in churches to explain why they are not doing something about minister's in sex scandals - not the same as using kids but one reinforces the other when behavior is blamed on the victims. The churches may not be running the show as they once did but the values learned in church still have an enormous influence on culture and this bit that came to me today is a thread that lets me know again, they use the Bible to justify their opinions and to blame rather than look at their own behavior.
This is an excerpt from "Why Megachurch Pastors Keep Falling Into Sexual Immorality" - FIrst it is minimized by labeling it "Immorality" not sexual abuse. http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/church-ministry/17654-why-megachurch-pastors-keep-falling-into-sexual-immorality The underlining is mine where the message is beyond believable.
"Sadly, the spirit of Jezebel is picking off pastors one by one as they succumb to the evil desires in their own hearts. Too few recognize the sinister workings of Jezebel's covert seduction. They’ve bought into what I call the “Jezebel deception” and are either tolerating sexual immorality in the church or merely failing to recognize the true Jezebel in operation because they are on a witch hunt for controlling, manipulative women.
What is the Spirit of Jezebel?
Jezebel is essentially a spirit of seduction that woos people into sexual immorality and idolatry. Jezebel comes to kill, steal and destroy by tempting you and then escorting you, willingly, into immorality and idolatry. Revelation 2:20 clearly reveals what the spirit of Jezebel is and its sinister motives. Jesus said, “Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.”
According to this author women are still controlling and manipulative - of course men are not - and powerful women are such an anachronism to the sweet docile "Laura Bush" type women who stays either drunk or on drugs to keep up the facade that any women who appears to take control over her life is considered controlling and manipulative and therefore, needs to be rooted out - and then she is the fall guy for surely this women with her power and strength must have the capability to entice like the call of the Lorelei to the four bold warriors.
This whole state of affairs reminds me of someone who wants to go to the edge and get so worked up trying to docile women that if they fall it is fate in the form of a woman. Frankly that is what I also think is at the bottom of the military culture - they never wanted women serving equal to men so they create their own war inside their ranks.
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How stupid and silly and sad to be that afraid of women. That author has real problems in life.. We have had several ministers in this area fall from grace. There is a nice article in a local paper from a counselor of ministers. He explains that the powerful ministers start to be like politicians and actors and athletes and believe whatever they want is good. He says it is hard to make them see where they went wrong.
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It is the same old, same old. And women have been too passive to point out the truth and make change. I am now convinced that only women can do this, because you see, men are still blaming women for their own, the men's, sexual forwardness and brutality. Jezabelle, indeed! And Eve tempted Adam and made him lose Paradise. Sure, she did!
Scheesch!
It was the men, the shamans, who first made up this stuff about seductive women. And then the wandering bards told and retold the stories. The bards were extremely important, and all of the Ancient Greek myths and stories and histories come from them. And the story tellers? They were all men.
So women have been one of two things. Yep! Gals, irregardless of what your mothers told you, you have had only two choices. You could be the madonna saint or that sexy temptress, the prostitute.
Groups of men are sworn to take care of their own, the men in their group, above all. Above women and children. Women and children are chaff in the wind, but men are dedicated and immortal. Men make up a tribe, a fraternity, a set of doctors, priests, policemen, firemen, lawyers, politicians, and warriors. I was born into and raised in the United States Army. Anyone who graduated West Point was covered for, protected, and kept as long as possible, be they incurable drunks, womanizers, brawlers, or mentally ill. Being transferred from post to post was one way of passing around the problems, but hey, you never betrayed, gave up on, or revealed the truth about a fellow officer. Never. Even in war, so what if whole companys, brigades, divisions consisting of someone's sons was lost due to the errors of a drunken fool. The important thing is that that fool is ONE OF US!
Anyone, anyone at all, not in the fraternity is expendable.
And THIS is what our society is up against.
Women have to take over. There is no other way.
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Mens need to band together is mystifying at best. But I agree MaryPage, they do band together all the time. Women , maybe because of the children tend to be more involved in their households, their children, etc, but the young women now seem to do a better job of enforcing their ability to get together with each other. Maybe we should try to band. We certainly have on Seniorlearn. I feel like I have a band of sisters from all over the world all in my corner cheering me on and chatting together in great love and harmony.
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I think I have mentioned this before, but I am not certain. In any event, this is a Senior Citizen set of chat rooms, so I am sure my peers, albeit most of you are younger than I, will forgive my repeating myself, if indeed that is the case here.
But if there is a scintilla of doubt in your mind that males and females of our human species have wired in attitudes that predate civilization as we know it today, I double dare you to read SPIRIT OF THE RAINFOREST by Mark Andrew Ritchie. It is a non-fiction account of what most anthropologists agree (I am only a student of that fascinating discipline, not a member) is the most primitive group of peoples on our planet today. This book is extremely violent, but it will show you how deep into our history the OWNERSHIP of females extends, and how innate is the male sense of rape being a reward for all males on the winning side of any conflict.
Speaking of which, only now, when most of my generation are dead and gone, and beyond being saddened by the smearing of our Yanks as triumphant victors of the battles, albeit again, that reputation is deserved and the accounts are factual, are books being published which detail the dreadful looting, killing, and rape perpetrated by our own American soldiers in and after World War II. At the time, I truly believed we were whitened sepulchres of decency. I wish these things had not been reveled in my lifetime.
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I will have to be careful to not read those books. I know that men rape as a method of control and aggression. No sex actually, just power. and when you think of it, in war they feel like they can take what they want. But it is sad.. The only saving grace is that it is not universal.. Just some men, not all.
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I have been listening to this audio books course called WHEN GODS WALKED THE EARTH. I have not really learned anything new, but having it all strung together in lectures has been really pleasurable. I listen while I take my walks. Today I was thinking about the fact that supposedly Agamemnon chose to kill his daughter Iphigenia in order to have things work out so that the Greek fleet could sail for Troy and make war upon the Trojans. And that this vast betrayal of a family member, whose protector he was supposed to be, took place approximately 2,500 to 3,000 years ago.
But war trumped child in importance, especially a girl child. And the daughter, who was grown and hoping to be married, was his property to dispose of as he wished.
And I dispair because most of my sex cannot to this day see that we have historically been thought of as property to be owned. Shoot, when credit cards first came out, which was after I was already a married woman, a woman could not get one IN HER NAME. Single women could not get them at all, and married women had to have their husbands get a card in their name and then ask for a second one and give permission for their wives to use it. Remember? And single women could not get mortgages. Women could own property and buy and sell it by the time I was born, albeit it was not always so, but the banks would not give them mortgages.
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In Sunday's The Washington Post there is a small article relating that the legislature in Afghanistan has failed to pass a law proposed that would give the women of that country a few basic and decent rights.
Opponents argued, successfully, that this law would encourage disobedience in women.
The title of the proposed law was "The Elimination of Violence Against Women," and passage would have eliminated child marriage, forced marriages, and the tradition of exchanging women and girls as part of the settlement of disputes. It would call domestic violence a crime, as well, and would do something Afghan men simply cannot imagine: if this law had been passed, female victims of rape would no longer be forced to face criminal charges as fornicators and adulterers. You see, now they are. Still.
On this planet.
When they are not actually killed by their own family members in order to wipe away the stain on the honor of the family of the female who has been violently raped. Hey, she has become soiled and is no longer of any use as a bargaining tool when settling an argument with another family!
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Just finished reading Seneca Falls Inheritance by Miriam Grace Monfredo. Set in 1848, when women here had few rights. Even their pay checks, if they worked, went to their fathers or husbands. Lots of history in that mystery book.
What made me stop and think was that it's been less than 100 years since the Constitution was amended to guarantee women the right to vote in this country. I think how old I am and look at that and realize that isn't so long ago, really. And when I was first married and working full time, I could not get a car loan, but my unemployed college student husband could. And a friend had been saving her money in her own account in a local bank, and her husband wanted to expand his business, so he was allowed to withdraw that money even though his name wasn't on the account. "Good Ole Boys" network.
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That IS the way it was. Back thar in the "good old days!"
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Saw this in my women's history newsletter this morning. The book sounds interesting, altho something that we may want to read in spurts, it could be intense......a plane shot down in Albania in WWII included 13 nurses. Apparently there is a lot of suspense, several attempts at escape before everybody, men and women get out. It's a piece of military history that does not exclude the story of the women involved.
http://www.chickhistory.com/2013/05/book-review-secret-rescue-untold-story.html
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http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-has-humanity-always-fantasized-about-capture-and-rape-women
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Book sounds interesting.. Not many women prisoners of war..
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It was so disgusting. It was a huge indictment of what we have come to in this pompous nation of ours, and it made us look so ridiculous.
Those 12 men all lined up in a row behind a table facing a congressional committee. Old men. Well, younger than we are, but old men. Fancy uniforms. Rows and rows and rows of gaily colored ribbons. Rows of stars. Rows of bars. Medals. The whole fancy dancy Woo Hoo look at Important Me paraphernalia. Scheesch!
And not one of them with a grain of sense.
Nope.
They want to keep all this sexual harassment/rape stuff under their command. They want to keep on protecting their guys and demoting and demobbing the female complainers.
Look at them sitting there! Theirs is a world where Men command and women open their legs when told, and then shut up.
Pardon my puke, you pompous asses; but if I could, I would spew it right on your immaculate uniforms.
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I must say MaryPage that was a shocking sight to see - I had a brief glimpse on the repeat news last night and I thought at first I was watching another nation till I recognized a few faces and realized what it was all about and then the quick shot to only was it 2 women in the entire room on the Committee side - wow - talk about courage and hutzpah but thank God or a reasonable viewpoint would never have been even spoken. That gal from New York that I remember was such a controversial choice when she was first in office is really a powerhouse articulating the basic needs of women.
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Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York. She is beyond wonderful. And brave.
The most amazing thing is that in the minds of these men, both military and politicians, you throw a bunch of young of the 2 sexes together, and this will be the outcome. Will be. Just good old mother nature and hormones.
(1) Rape is not sex. It is power.
(2) There is NO excuse for sexual humiliation of any type, verbal or physical, and no excuse for rape. Rape is a CRIME.
(3) Most of the 33,000+ instances of sexual harassment and rape in the services in the last year have been a matter of SUPERIOR OFFICERS, commissioned or non-commissioned, but NOT teenagers or even men in their twenties, harassing or raping women they commanded. This amounts to not only crime, but betrayal of trust and of honor. In two instances, there were complaints against officers who were actually in charge of looking into sexual harassment complaints in their sectors!
And these goofy, silly old men have the gross ignorance to sit there with microphones in front of them and say, in effect, boys will be boys and this is what you must expect. One blamed it on our television shows.
Where were their mothers when they were growing up? Where are their wives and daughters? Can we have a training program for old white males to teach them what rape is? What women, all women, find unacceptable behavior? What they cannot say or do to women? And can we make it mandatory to attend these courses, or you are not eligible to hold public office or work for a government agency? Please.
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they never wanted a mixed sex army, navy, air corp or marine corp. This was their proof that it would not work but it appears women will not be stopped and so they simply became more angry and used sexual abuse as a weapon by minimizing its effects.
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The only problem I can see in taking it out of the command structure is if an event takes place for example in a war zone where there is no civilian court. Would require bringing all involved back to the US or bringing the civilian lawyers to the war zone.
Was astounded that the military academies would want to ignore these offences and have an officer with this kind of record.
I worked for the federal government for years and attended many classes on what was appropriate behavior so it is not that these people are not aware.
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NY Times yesterday had yet another rape in Indian of an American woman.Granted that hitchhiking in the middle of the night is pure stupid in that country, still she should not have been raped. But common sense is always a good thing anywhere.
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I am with you all the way, Steph.
We must never fall into the error of blaming the VICTIM. No child, no girl, no woman should ever be raped. Anywhere. Anyhow.
No matter the place, the hour, what she is wearing. Rape is a terrible crime taking away the individuals control over her own body and inherent right to privacy. Wherever and whenever it occurs, it is a dreadful violation of the freedom of a person to be safe from unwanted physical contact with another being. It is an attack and it is recognized as an attack and as a crime world over. By the laws. Men still require convincing.
Yes, I would advise all girls and women to be alert, on guard, and PRUDENT in the matter of where they go and when they go there and what they are wearing. I think women need to cover up more. Not burkas, for heavens sake, but lower hemlines, bellies covered, higher necklines. Women have got to go back to dressing to look beautiful, and NOT dressing to look sexy. Sexy has to be OUT in the fashion world, for the simple reason of safety. Don't go out walking at night ANYwhere, not even in your own neighborhood, and then go only with 2 or more others. Don't go out at night to parties or clubs or shows, etc., as a single. Go only with a group. When, oh when, are we going to start showing some sense in what we do about cutting down on the odds of something bad happening to us, given that we do not seem to be able to bring about a cessation of raping and sexual assault? And then there is just plain robbery and mugging! I get the willies just wondering where ANY female is coming from when she makes a conscious choice to go out on her own in the dark.
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Rape is about power- so what role does suggestive attire play, really? I haven't seen any numbers. But I have read about rapes that are certainly circumstances where attire has nothing to do with it.
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Oh dear I cannot agree MaryPage - I think that is just what women are saying - enough is enough about being caged in by choice of dress and when and where she goes reducing her rights to freedom because men have not been taught self control. That is like saying because of a person's race or religion they should dress a certain way and not go out alone at night or if they do go out, only in certain areas of town - it is what Blacks had to contend with and we are saying that is how a woman should live...?
Thinking as we did back before the woman's rights movement of the 1970s is the same thinking of safety many are using today as an overall national policy - giving up freedom for safety since 9/11 - this attitude is basic to how we are allowing those with sick behavior, those who have been taught that this sick behavior regardless towards women or another nation or another race, is free game for them to terrorize -
When you consider it, the various churches are terrorizing women taking away their right to choose because the choice women could make is not in keeping with their interpretation of the Bible. This control follows the patriarchal belief that women cannot be trusted, that goes back to the ancient myths therefore, as many powerful groups, they throw those they fear under the bus by making them appear weak or foolish. When anyone fears their own weakness they condemn weakness in others.
In some countries women are expected to dress in Burkas so men cannot look at them and we know of other atrocities on young women that for generations, hundreds of years, have so terrorized their weak status that the women themselves are the brutal perpetrators of these atrocities.
Dressing out of fear is demeaning - also, it has been proven that men rape regardless what you are wearing or your age as the show with Edith Bunker showed us. If scanty dress were the culprit we would have out of control rapes at the beach.
Seems to me sex is like fire it has its good and its damaging aspects - we know that wood, especially dry wood easily burns and yet, that did not stop us from building our houses of wood, or using wood by-products to make paper - we do not fireproof newspapers and magazines or our wooden furniture - we expect those who use wood products to use their head and those committing sex crimes are not using their head - they believe what they want should be theirs as if the world is supposed to OK any obsession - OK their lack of control. Does that mean we should learn to be co-dependent preventing those with no control from acting out their obsession - drugs, alcohol, betting, power, sex...
When you think on it a warrior Knight all about chivalry was an easy jump because being a soldier meant facing fear and finding courage - when soldiering became corporate, working towards the next promotion courage was no longer valued in the same way - when you believe in yourself, have skills and are filled with courage there is no need to be fearful of a woman - when you are in direct competition with a women you use whatever means to win and so my thought is to get back to raising boys and training young men to face fear and uncover their courage so the Lorelei myth about women is no longer a factor. As to men in other cultures they have to sort out their religious beliefs and extract the historical cultural beliefs.
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Actually I think it is stupid to hitchhike period, but I do know in Europe it is considered acceptable. I do believe that in a foreign country, male or female, know the rules of that country helps make your life easier.. Me.. I had a few things I wanted to see and do in India, but with the current atmosphere would not go near the place. Its like Dubai.. not a place for me.
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I am in total agreement that women should not be raped. Period. I agree in every respect and degree that the level of their sobriety, the clothing they wear or lack, the time of day or night and/or the place should not be considered provocative.
That being said, and agreed upon, let us be practical about the safety and sanctity of our own bodies.
We are never going to erase rape from this world. Never. Ever. We can make more people aware of the outrageous crime it is and get more attention to catching all culprits and punishing them thoroughly, starting with taking away their high offices and/or jobs. Or low. Whatever.
But I double dare all of those who say we should not be CAREFUL to put on a bikini and walk alone in the worst section of your city or town or county come midnight. Make that a triple.
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I guess then the question is rape because of being provocative which those they apprehend claim, or is it about power and regardless of dress, of course those who need to show evidence of their power usually live on the 'wrong' side of town - but more, it seems to me a bikini is beach wear - if we believe it is a power move than regardless what a lone women would wear she is vulnerable to those who have to prove themselves, as are lone men who appear to be less than a billboard for a marine. If we have learned over the past 40 years about the dynamics of rape and incest, we know, men grow out of rape when their libido is reduced where as, incest continues till a man is 100 or dead.
It seems to me this is aggression but rather than using a gun or fists it is with sex - however, I agree we will never get rid of any obsessive action that is driven by some deep seated need - as long as women are second class is what I see is the culprit - second class makes a victim to any power that for one reason or another needs to flex its muscles - and to me the big one is as long as churches keep women second class there is a pale over what any nation does to lift women to an equal status with men - the men then always have the church behind them to justify their viewpoint and that viewpoint drifts into the wider culture.
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I had an email from Emily's List today saying a man in Texas has been completely exonerated from shooting a woman to death because she refused him sex.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100661215/3592172
http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/13623/a-texas-jury-did-what
And so on and on and on and on - - - - - - - -
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As much as I think a women should not be made to have sex at the same time she was selling sex - she was paid to perform sex with him and after taking the money she was obligated to give him the goods she sold - and so to take this story and apply it to a date and the 'right' women should be able to say no is not only miss-leading but dangerous.
If he went to a farmer's market and handed over $150 for a quarter of a cow cut and wrapped and the farmer took the money but did not deliver it would be the same thing -
Unfortunately there are still old laws on the books that were in affect 100 years ago. No one who does not deliver a paid for service in any stretchof our imagination today deserve a gun shot death however, that is how it was and his lawyer found his loophole. In this one the other unfortunate is the names suggest Mexican culture and for that you have his pride and honor wrapped up in the incident since machismo is very much alive among most Mexican men. Texas is a quarter to a third Mexican.
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You do wonder how many women need to get the message on rape and prostitution. I know, it is a way to survive,but I think the cost to your mind is overwhelming.Scrub floors.. etc.
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So if a little girl sold a man a box of Girl Scout Cookies, in Texas, and never delivered them, he would have the right to find her and shoot her? Dead?
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I know - but there are many archaic laws on the books - and as horrible as they sound now hopefully we have grown past the need for these laws when they were created for a time when there was little lawyering, few jails, and court rooms were maybe in the county seat - but then there were no Girl Scouts much less little girls selling cookies -
It is just a case of a lawyer finding one of these old laws still on the books. It would be a job to take on but who would fund it to compile all the out of date laws and then in one discharge get rid of them. However, this is a law that was to address cattle rustling.
I doubt the young women or even the guy knew the law existed - unfortunately, she may have been killed even if she attempted to return his money. He wanted what he wanted and thought he carried out his half of the bargain. When she accepted she carried out her half but did not follow through. No, I am not callus to think she deserved to be killed but the law is what it is and it is not the first or only law, old or new that is used in ways none of us could imagine.
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I have always wondered if there should not be law that requires states to reexamine their laws every so many years.There are a number of archaic laws in many states.
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Steph a good idea but funding the project would be the trick so I think it would have to be some outside grant but then I could see when attorneys are involved and politics the wrangling that would go on to have the laws dismissed so the time and money would become astronomical.
We have no idea what went on between the two in question however I can almost see a scenario where with his libido high she taunted him so that all he had was his emotions and the oldest part of our brain going for him - in other words no thought with not only his sexuality threatened but is libido as well - some girls ride high with their only weapon which is to use the sex of the guy against them since they are past working from any emotional level. No, she did not deserve to be shot dead but I can see how she may not have been innocent victim of his response. the most unfortunate part is the way the story was made into the news - none of the background was included - it was written for readers to have a heightened shocked response.
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Ah,but all of our newsis that way now. Living in central Florida, I have been reading and pondering on the Trayvon Martin Case for a long time now.. Amazingly enough the defense attorney wants to bring up this boys whole life up till , he was killed. How about the man who did that. He was a kid.. nothing more, nothing less and a cop wanne be went after him..Very sad and stupid case.
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All over this nation, Republicans are passing bills in state houses that forbid abortion AND contraception! Makes no sense. Makes no sense at all. But they are doing this. And they are going all out to close down Planned Parenthood clinics, even those THAT DO NOT OFFER ABORTIONS. Most do not, you know. Only about THREE PER CENT (3%) of what Planned Parenthood does involves abortion. Most of what they do, and many of their clinics do ONLY this, is offer free mammograms to those who cannot afford them and free birth control counseling, and in cases, again who cannot afford it, free birth control. And advice about sexually transmitted diseases. Women's problems. Solving women's functional problems for those who cannot afford such help. And charging those who can. Can afford it.
So I see this whole thing as an Attack on Women.
And it is coming from men. All from men.
I do not understand why there is not a rising roar of outrage coming from the women of this nation. I just do not understand.
I was a Republican all of my life right up until 1980 when suddenly, for the very first time EVER, abortion was in the Republican platform. They were against it. And I have voted Democratic ever since. Because I believe in individual rights just as much as the gun owners do, and my body is MY BODY, and your body is your body, and I and my doctor will decide what I do and you and your doctor can decide what you do.
And I cannot understand men who say they are having their rights under the constitution taken away if they cannot have their automatic weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition, but no woman has a right to decide when and if she should have a child. Or children. She is to have no such rights OVER HER VERY OWN LIFE AND BODY!
Which attitude does, indeed, reduce us to the like of toasters. Baby making machinery. No barriers allowed to putting the seed in, and no choice as to cooking it until done. And all mishaps, such as miscarriages, must be reported to the police for investigation. Honestly, this is actually in some of the bills being passed! And in one state, the governor himself will study and decide about permission for an abortion. ALL requests for an abortion MUST go to him and permission come from him.
And we deplore the condition of women in the rest of this world!
I am 84, and these outrageous laws do not and will not affect me. But Where are the women?
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The beat is being heard MaryPage, those women are starting to march.
Those states are setting up a challenge to Roe v Wade, especially the Iowa governor making the medicade abortion decisions. That is so obviously unconstitutional under Roe v Wade. But hooray for you for your outrage, i'm with you.
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Well, Jean, apparently there are two of us!
Now I want to hear from the other over two hundred MILLION!
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They're always hearing from me, our four daughters and two granddaughters. Not that it does any good.
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And I have already sent emails to my Iowa state senators/reps about the Gov's wanting HIS plan to take the place of the expanded Medicaid federal program...EVEN though it will cover fewer people AND cost millions more. The ego of male politicians is beyond belief!
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
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My only hope for immediate relief that may end up being the best protection is the day after pill is finally legal - I do understand Drug Stores can sell at their discretion but then for most there is always a nearby big box store. This will be far less expensive emotionally on women plus the low cost compared to all the tests they are wanting to set up before a women can even have an abortion - that is sick - there is enough trauma - as Joan Chittirster, a Benedictine Nun, says, "she never met a women having an abortion who did not need an abortion".
I do not think these politicians think of what the consequences are to their hue and cry - they simply see it as a way to draw attention to themselves - our only hope is if women would band together and not vote these guys into office however, if you remember during the height of the woman's rights movement we had a large strong voice of women, I forget their leader's name, who wanted to keep things as they were. It is these Church leaders who have mesmerized women to their control.
What I never understood is if they want all these unwanted children than why do they cut back on free assistance - we recently read how even Finland has a policy where every mother pregnant receives from the government a large box containing a full layette.
I hear more women who feel as y'all but, evidently as many of us as there are, we cannot tip the scales. Frustrated to rage - my good friend who is now 94 is not only angry but becoming really depressed over this, knowing she is near the end of her life and there is such a strong voice not lifting up women.
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email from my sister who is a philosopher and an ex-nun
'Morning
Here I am on computer even before breakfast. But I just opened my NYTimes to read the Senator Levin has stripped the provisions from the militarily appropriations bill that Senator Christine Gillibrand got into the bill to reduce/eliminate rape in the military
I am furious - an immediate gut reaction. I feel like it is the '60s and trying to get local police forces to take rape seriously and our feeling that ''they just don't get it'.
Please - : Senator Levin is a democrat and democrats have depended on the votes of women. It is time to stand up and let him/them know that ignoring rape in the military is not acceptable and that this IS important. Heck if I expected that we would be ignored I would not have sent $$$ to elect democrats to the Senate last year.
Please contact his office and let him know that rape elimination should be in that bill, must be in the bill....that he is about to lose the support of women and those who respect women. NO ONE serving our country should have to endure rape by her own colleagues or superiors.
Contact Sen Carl Levin
Telephone (202) 224-6221
email https://www.levin.senate.gov/contact/email/
Please also contact you own Senators [just google their names and you will get their Senate page with phone numbers. Let them know that we want action, strong action NOW.
And would you consider passing this post along to others who you think value women?
Kate
Kate Lindemann
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I'm there. It highly annoys me that some of our senators and congressman will ask for your zip codes when you send them an email and if you are not a constituent you can't contact them! I know they get loads of emails, but isn't that the point of a democracy, and the reason they have all those staff members!?!
Jean
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Jean, from my experience, they want your zip codes, but they really don't care anyway, because being a constituent isn't enough - you have to either agree with them or give them money for them to pay attention.
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Barbara, I feel exactly the same way your 94 year old friend does: depressed that I am 84 and on my way out of this world and too old and frail to demonstrate any more and too poor to wave money and get attention. Helpless to change one iota of a seemingly hopeless situation.
But gals, stupid idiots that these men are, why CAN'T we change things? Look at the Math, for crying out loud. There are heaps MORE of us than there are of them!
As for the chain of command thing, the male senators feel empathy and compassion for the dignity and self esteem of these guys "in the chain of command." They think we want to take their authority away from them. But we don't, EXCEPT in the case of sexual harassment and/or rape. In those cases experience shows us all that there MUST be a different venue for these victims to run to. Must. And one of the biggest reasons is that they have just been raped by their commanding officer!!!!! If not that, by one of his best buddies or service academy classmates or staff members or you name it. Experience has proved over and over and over again that these victims can expect nothing but grief and endless emotional rape and the end of their careers if they even attempt that path. It is the same thing if you get raped by a football or basketball or baseball player. Woe unto you if you go to anyone remotely connected with that team to file a complaint! The cover up is astounding!
"Poor Jim! This could be the end of his career! If that stupid bitch won't shut up and go away, we'll make her wish she'd never been born!"
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I think that the current crop of women simply do not believe any of it. That is sad. Politics has gotten so dreadful, that it seems irrelevant to many people.. Dinosaurs on the hoof, so to speak. I know how hard I worked way back when and at 75, I am so tired.. But I hope that women will take heart in that some of our new women legislaters are starting to fight back. The committee on the armed forces has alot of women involved, but the chairman is one of the worst dinosaurs.. He is leaving out something important and noone can stop him. Our congress has set up the stupidest rules favoring longevity.As far as I can see, noone should ever get to spend more than eight years in office.. then has to go out for at least 8 more years. But that will never happen with those old white men.
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This column by Frank Bruni was in the NYTimes on Tuesday, but printed in our paper this morning. Very timely to this conversation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/opinion/bruni-sexisms-puzzling-stamina.html?ref=frankbruni&_r=0
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Do you think that since we all lived through what i think most of us here would consider the "hopeful years" of the 60's and 70's that we are therefore depressed by the loss of continuing progressivism? I frequently told my students that i and many of my friends in 1970 were expecting that by the year 2000 we would have equality, no poverty, a safe environment, good education for everybody, maybe even peace throughout the world! We were young, idealistic, saw things moving in the right directions and expected that events would keep us moving in that direction. Then in the 70's the conservative movement quietly began to come into power........(Barb were you thinking of Phyllis Shafely?) and altho we have had significant advances in all those areas, it seems like the dinosaurs keep popping up and we need to diligently "whack-a-mole" them. :)
It can be frustrating and even depressing, but i take heart that i keep seeing liberals and progressives fighting the good fight to whack the moles. The 2 elections of Obama gave me great encouragement that most of the country's people are sane, rational, caring human beings and these dinosaurs are just getting media attention because of the 24/7 news channels. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing. They are being shown as idiots immediately, but it makes it look as though they have a lot more power and influence than i think they do, and therefore much of the populace is losing faith in the gov't and society. But then i see others challenging them immediately, unlike when McCarthy was first sprewing forth his lies and venom. That is heartening.
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Thank you, MaryZ, for that piece in the New York Times. I have printed it out. My husband was like that: he not only believed women should be equal under the law, but he believed us to be superior to the male sex!
I tend to believe we have always let the males shoot off their mouths with stupid remarks that show how ignorant of women and women's bodily functions and women's brains and abilities they are because we dislike confrontation and disagreeableness in general. Busy with all of our chores, we dismissed their behavior as just being boy stuff, not paying attention to how dangerous it would become for us.
Yes, it was during the nineteen seventies that fundamentalist Christianity began to practice politics and to plot and plan to put people in office who would pass legislation that would put women in legal balls and chains in an effort to bar them from further participation in running our society. My first hand experience with this was a factor in my leaving the Republican party, which I had been a avid worker in all of my life up to 1980, and in my ability to see the parallels with fundamentalist Islam and connect the dots in the shared male attitudes of the chauvinists in those two world religions.
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Yes, Phyllis Shafely - had a post from my heart and whatever is going on with this new keyboard when I use my right hand to hit Shift something happens and I loose everything I wrote. I have just scotch taped several nearby keys hoping i can figure out what it is I hit with my pinky finger because I cannot figure out how to bring back not only a post but anything I write on this computer. grrrr. Not going to re-create my lost post now - till later...
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I think of late 60's and early 70's as the period of storms and fury. Viet Nam for me was a wateshed on how our politicians and military just love to send off the young to war and stay home and posture on how brave they are. It made me lose faith in politics in general and religion in particular.
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Yes Steph, the late 60's and 70's had a lot of turmoil, but i saw it as turmoil that was questioning the establishment and the war and i felt that most of the activists were filled with good intentions. Yes, there were extremists, as there always are when things are changing, but i was optimistic that the good will would win out in the end. Such idealism.
I still think that most of the activists were on the right track and many good things happened. Today i have less faith in humanity to be mostly on the beneficial track, but i stop myself and remind myself that what makes the news is the corruptness, the greed, the lies, the self-aggrandisement and i think of the many good things that i have also heard about happening, but are not making the topics of the talking heads everyday.
I've started to write a blog about twice a month. It will be about a lot of my interests, but mostly about women's issues. If any of you would like to see it or follow it, here's a link.
http://womanstorybyjeanp.blogspot.com/
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I guess I have a different perspective on the late 60s and early 70s. I was teaching in a high school of 2,000 in the late 60s and the turmoil in the high school after the assassination of Martin Luther King was horrible. The principal's home was fire bombed, the school was closed for 3 days because of the rioting in a town of about 40,000. I left teaching and went to the Univ. of Illinois to Grad School. The activists from Berkeley and wherever came in and removed drawers of catalog cards from the large University Library and attempted to set them on fire. They interrupted the research of a lot of grad students who turned against the activists. Retired librarians in the Champaign-Urbana area spent many volunteer hours trying to reconstruct what was damaged. Many of the cards, thankfully, didn't burn completely because they were so compacted together when the drawers were emptied. The building in which I lived was a grad dorm...and the doors started to be locked at night so people didn't come in and start fires or leave bombs.
You may recall there was a grad student killed in the bombing of a chemistry building, I believe it was, at the Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison.
I got my degree in 1969 and went on the Univ. of Iowa as a staff librarian. Bomb threats were called in there in the early 70s, and we had to evacuate the building in which I worked more than once. Grad students were on "fire patrol"....making hourly trips through the building, checking for any signs of fires set.
So...I'm not very sympathetic to the actions by the activists during that period of time.
jane
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Thanks for the link to your blog, jean. I've put it on my blog reader.
jane, you really had some up-close-and-personal experiences during the upheavals of that time.
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I was a young mother during the 60's and my experiences were of marching and the becoming a conviction quaker and helping counsel young males who were in line for the draft, etc. They were so afraid and invariably poor or lower middle class.. They wanted to live just as much as college students did. I also belonged to an organization I had not thought of for years.. "WAR IS NOT HEALTHY FOR CHILDREN AND OTHER LIVING THINGS".. Oh me, I have a pin somewhere and we marched in Philly several times.
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I was in college, and my husband was in the military toward the end of the 60's. I participated in some peaceful protests, nothing that was destructive or violent. I missed one significant protest, one where a roommate spoke, because I was helping a friend buy her wedding dress so she could get married when her fiance was home on leave - he had thought he was going to Vietnam but he ended up a medic in Germany. Meanwhile, my husband did go to Vietnam, and while I was against the war, then it became personal and I was so occupied with school and work and money and worry that the protests became part of the background, not something I could participate in actively.
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nlhome: Your mention of your husband being in VietNam while you were a student reminded me of a gal on my floor in the Grad dorm. Her husband, too, was in 'Nam, and they'd sold their house, their furniture, everything they had and they'd decided she'd go to Grad School with the money they had to get her Masters so she wouldn't have a lot to cope with (house, furniture, etc.) should he not return. She did get her MS and her husband did come home and they then moved to a place where she could work while he got his degree.
jane
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Yes, I finished with my BS and then moved out to CA after he came back from Vietnam; he will always be grateful to President Nixon, logical or not, because he got out of his enlistment a few months early and thus was spared the return to Vietnam that he was scheduled to make. He came home to finish college and get his MS, while I worked. The good thing - the GI bill; the bad things - memories, residual medical issues. He was not pleased when one of our sons chose to enter the military.
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I was living in Brooklyn in the 60s, was active in Brooklyn CORE (Congress of Racial Equality), and was in many protests (and under some danger from those who wished to stop us). I moved to Israel. but when I was back in the 70s I was very active in my local NOW chapter. All of the things I participated in were non-violent (on our side at least), in fact, we had to learn to react non-violently.
We did indeed have great hopes for the future. And there has been some progress -- it's a glass is half full and half empty kind of thing. Coming from my past, I delight in seeing women in positions they had no hope of holding when I was young. And yet, the sexism that continues is horrifying.
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That brought back memories in how to protect non violently. A whole day devoted to this all those years ago. Amazing how a sentence can bring back such memories..
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I just read a fascinating discussion on Ms Blog. Ms Magazine put Beyonce on their cover recently and in the article she talked about her "fierce feminism." The author on the blog aligned the controversary that was generated in Ms as to whether Beyonce's persona is "feminist" and is there a different judgement about "white feminists" and "feminists of color." i didn't agree with a lot of what the author alleged, but it generated a fabulous discussion about what is feminist and how we judge sexiness - are we all brainwashed into thinking that what is sexy is what has been generated thru the centuries as sexy by men? Can we unhook our brains from that patriarchal attitude?
I have a very conflicted attitude about six inch heels - the response by women who wear them is always "they make me look sexy"; short, spandex dresses that emphasize curves and get close to showing the woman's crotch to the world; Brazilian waxes, and any other dress that is obviously uncomfortable, but considered attractive and sexy (by men's evaluation?) I'm conflicted because i think as a feminist that women should dress the way they want! But! My next thought is are they dressing that way to please themselves -who would try to wear 6inch heels that are going to hurt all evening and kill my back and hips for decades to come - or to please the men they will come in contact with, whether consciously or sub-consciously?
In any case the blog generated a fabulous discussion. It's long and it took me two returns to it to read all the replys, but thought some of you may enjoy the discussion. Actually IMO the best, most thoughtful comments, are near the bottom, or most recent replies.
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/06/10/policing-feminism-regulating-the-bodies-of-women-of-color/
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I get angry at girls and women who do things to themselves "to make them look better or to look sexy" if and when those things they do hurt their bodies. Do harm to themselves.
I refer most especially to those heels. I know from bitter experience. I was born with a shoe fetish and an underwear fetish. And earrings. Those are the 3 items I have had a passion for (personal attire wise), and I had a shoe collection to shame me. Underwear? I liked Dior in pale peach tones with ecru lace; that sort of thing. It would please me to know that with my quite ordinary outfits, I was richly lush underneath and my shoes were precious (way back before there were "name" brands), and my earrings were just right. All three of these things made me feel feminine and sexy like a female leopard, if you will. I was not making any attempt to look sexy to males, but just to FEEL sexy.
Then came the lower back pain that immobilized me. I could not move without wanting to scream at the top of my lungs. My nurse (this was 1987) daughter hauled me to an orthopedic surgeon. They made a special plastic girdle to fit around my hips and abdomen. They put a heavy piece of plywood on my mattress under the sheet. I could barely sit down upon and get up from a hard chair; anything upholstered was flat out impossible. The surgeon, a woman, told me this was all due to the heels I wore all the time, and to throw them out and wear NIKE air shoes for walking, or the equivalent, all the time, with pretty flats for dress up.
I followed her orders. It was SO painful to throw out some of those gorgeous shoes. I did it. After some weeks, the pain went away. It has never, ever come back.
In my old age, I have given up the underwear thing. I wear all white, all cotton panties that come almost to my knee. My granddaughters fall on the floor in heaps laughing. I tell them I have never worn a thong in my life, and they roll their eyes. I am still into earrings.
And I get mad, really burned to a crisp, when I see my sisters of any age ruining their health with those damn heels. Shoes no foot should EVER be inserted in!
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I remember my days of 6" heals - mostly in my late 40s and most of my 50s - In my 20s and 30s I was too busy raising my children and being active with Girl Scouting where flats were more appropriate - During my 6" heal days I was feeling great making good money. I do not remember feeling especially sexy as much as just feeling great about myself feeling that I was on top of it and in control of my life. Presenting myself with that look gave me such a feeling of confidence -
To some that may be sexy or to others feeling their sexiness may be empowering but I do not think it has much to do with pleasing guys - oh it is nice to see guys heads turn but for many it is feeling you are a winner and it is about time we include our sexiness as part of what makes us whole women. In my job we certainly were not trying to feel sexy with our clients and some of us were in offices that were 90% women. Granted Sex in the City was about women's friendship but it was about younger women when attracting a man is biologically their epic center however, for women that feeling expressed in that show when all the girls were together at a restaurant and caring for each other and all looking great wearing their 6" heals is a feeling that can continue till all of a sudden in your late 50s the heals are too much for the ankle and balls of the feet to handle and the heals get lower.
Granted there are not many women fashion designers but shopping I do not think we choose because the shoe or article of clothing was designed by a women or a man. We just want to look great. Not because of a fashion magazine which most of us stopped buying when we were pregnant with our first baby but choosing from what is available we know when we look good - we tried things on and even returned a couple - not because we wanted to feel sexy, only because we wanted to look good and feel great and we knew what design of shoes and clothing would accomplish that.
I do not know if it would be considered sexy at my age - when I feel like I look more like a turtle however, I sure notice the difference in how i am treated if I go to the store without makeup and without a coordinated outfit - does not take two minutes to choose a Tshirt that matches or accentuates a long pair of pants with matching flats and to slip a simple necklace and if it is not too hot a long sleeve cotton or silk big shirt as a jacket to accentuate the long line look. I have run to the store in my jeans and house wearing Tshirt and am treated as if I am that turtle that is too slow and in the way by women as well as men including the cashier.
Personally I think that the fuss over how a young women dresses borders on if she should appear sexy in public with the underground warning that is at the bottom of that, still being thought as the cause of rape or that women are baby machines to men and therefore, they are not allowed to give off vibes of their sexiness because it may influence someone else to do the same and lo unto them the risk.
I think we would be better off having public discussions about the cause of rape and what it is in a man that makes him feel this expression of his power is not a national crime of terror that we as a nation do not prosecute him as a terrorist. Rapists have sure terrorized women over they years as to how they should dress and act that denies they are sexual. If we saw as many articles in the media about the causes of rape and about the respect of and to a women's body but we do not even see that respect among many of our politicians.
When Go Men's Fashion magazine features a sexy man showing his abs in a bathing suit no one thinks he is at risk for someone jumping his bones.
When we see the ad for Dos Equis Beer Commercials we wish all the older guys we know would clean up their act and dress with style.
http://domusvitae.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/dos_equis_most_interesting_man.jpg
When we see a photo of the still working model Carmen Dell'Orefice, who turned 80 last year we can look at ourselves and clean up our own act.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/04/article-1394174-0C65F28600000578-21_306x498.jpg
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MaryPage this article may be on interest - all of us as we age the channel in our backbone narrows with less room for our entire nerves system so that it is easy when we are older to bruise or pinch a nerve that causes much of our back pain. My son is going through it now at age 54 and he never wore high heals - I finally succumbed after a fall where one leg went into a deep hole not seen since the grass was all the same height and after healing for nearly a year went to a chiropractor who did not, as I did not understand the aging body and he injured me further - only going to the Seton Hospital Spine & Scoliosis Center did I learn about what happens to our back as we age.http://www.setonspineandscoliosis.com/about_us/physician_bios.html
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Breaking both of my ankles made me give up heels in my early 50's. I did love them so. I dont think for sexy, but I am short and I felt like the heels made me more equal with the world. Like Mary Page, I adored earrings and sexy underwear. I became allergic however to anything touching my skin that had too much other material besides cotten, so my underwear and nighties are very boring white.. No lipstick either, since something in it causes me to break out. Sigh.. But like Barb, I dress well with limits. I may wear shorts of crops, but my tops match or look good with.. I know several of my friends, who consider me "fussy", but it makes my heart be content, when I feel I look like what he liked me to look.
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Thanks for those links Barbara. I'v had almost a year of back and stomach pain from a herniated disk and my DIL, who works for the imaging company, just brought me a report of the MRI i had. Of course i understood about 20% of it :) but the one word i did understand that no one had mentioned before was stenosis. The exercises that the PT has had me do is aggravating my hip, so we're going to have a talk about that today. I look forward to reading about the exercises the docs in your link recommend.
I have always dressed for comfort, but with style, i think. In my pre-sixty years i wore 2and 3 inch heels, largely because society said that was being "dressed up." in the last 10 yrs i've worn only a few times a peek-toe 2inch wedge, but most often i wear a nice flat with nice slacks and a jacket as my dress-up clothes. Of course in my young years i shaved my legs, probably the most uncomfortable thing i did. I wear lipstick and a little eye liner when i'm going out. But i just can't imagine wearing clothes that would make me as uncomfortable as many women look today. One of the Tony Award winners said to the interviewer right after she won "i'm only nervous about my boobs staying in place." and well she should have, bcs they were very close to popping out of her halter top dress. Now, with just an inch or so more material she would have looked just as nice and not have the anxiety of showing her boobs to the world, why would you do that to yourself, what was her motivation is, i guess, the feminist question.
Oh yes, i have gotten my hair permed at least once a year ever since i was about 12 yrs old. As an adult with short hair (easy to take care of) it's been about 3x a year. That's strictly for my own satisfaction - i think - if my hair doesn't look good, to me, i don't feel good. Lord knows what it does to my brain, otherwise, it's not a bad ordeal to have it done, except for the odor - you would think by 2013 they would have figured out how to make perms smell better. :)
Jean
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I don't get perms or color or have my nails lacquered because I worry about all of those chemicals, every one of them toxic, being taken into my system through my skin and my nostrils. I think one day we will be amazed that we women ever put ourselves willingly in the dangers they pose us.
Oh, I am almost speechless at the House Republicans insisting upon pandering to their base and passing that dreadful bill against women's health and reproductive choices. Anyone who doubts there is a War On Women must be tottering on the brink of senility, even when it is led by a woman who has obviously been brainwashed into believing theirs is the "correct Science," albeit the American Medical Society and the Association of OB/GYNS says it's all wrong. Foetuses masterbating in the womb, indeed! And since they feel that pleasure, it just stands to reason they feel pain, as well!
And people actually elected that pinhead to Congress? Heaven Help Us, for we are surely doomed!
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I used to frost my hair until nature decided to do it. Wear a bit of blush upon occasion since I am very pale..I do note that women who dye their hair, as they get older, the blonde and reds get brassier. I read up and realize that our eye sight does that to us. We think that things are darker or milder than they are..So I will stay away from any more frosting etc.
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When I was young, hypoallergenic makeup was unknown. I didn't know either, just knew that when I wore makeup, I felt nausious all the time. my friends told me, "Oh, you have to wear at least lipstick, or you'll never get a husband. So I did, until the day after I got engaged. I asked Dick "Do you mind if I stop wearing lipstick?" He said "Huh? It would be great: I wouldn't get it on me when we kiss." That was the last time I wore lipstick.
The marraige lasted 50 years, so the role of lipstick in holding marraiges together has been exaggerated. There was a time in the 70s when I realized that some people thought I was gay, because I didn't wear lipstick. But as long as my husband knew better, what did I care.
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I love that. My husband was not overfond of heavy makeup and would comment on it when we were someone who overdid. His Mother was passionate about dark red lipstick and constantly redid her lipstick after eating or drinking.. Had a little mirror attached to her lipstick. He hated it and asked me to never ever do that.. Since I cant wear lipstick without suffering , I gladly did not wear it.
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Lipstick is the ONLY type of makeup I ever wear. Ever have worn. I do not want, and have never wanted, to mess with my eyes by putting all that stuff around them. I have never worn lipstick unless I was going out, and these days I don't even wear it then. The only time I bother now is if it is a very special occasion for someone, and I want to show them I have made an effort to look nice for their big event.
My dermatologist tells me, and her nurse does too, every single year, and year after year, that I have the best skin for my age she has ever seen. They have ever seen. They call it amazing. Makeup ages the skin. So does the sun. I have never worn makeup or done a speck of sun bathing. I avoid the sun as much as possible.
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finding the best way to treat our skin is an effort isn't it - some use little and I have found after a liberal use of moisturizer if I do not wear foundation makeup the sun does awful things to my face - I soon learned I had to wear sunscreen on my left hand and when my arm is exposed while I drive - before long without sunscreen even in winter I look like my left arm and hand belongs to someone else - I actually ended up with pealing
I used to have trouble wearing makeup because of allergies and so in my younger years I switched to Almay and then in the late 70s I switched to Clinique with good results. I no longer use as much makeup but foundation for sure unless I want a sunburned face that turns to leather - my eyebrows are getting spotty white so I use a bit of grey pencil, some blush and light color lipstick with a lip liner - if I am dressing like going out to dinner or to the symphony or even church and big meetings I use a some pale eye shadow - it brightens the area under my brows
Rather than slathering on moisturizer cream which now is getting so expensive I recently found Coconut oil does a wonderful job at about a tenth of the price. My arms actually look better like there is some life under the skin again.
My hair is going through an awful state - do not want to get back to a regular beauty parlor schedule but it really could use a bit of color - it is sorta pepper and salt but since my hair was not that dark and the white is in patches and streaks it looks like I have a spotted white leopard draped on my head. I want to find a rinse that really works because I do not want all the chemicals nor put up with that smell - I always ended up with a three day headache when I used to have perms. Stopped doing that about 20 years ago. For awhile I pulled it back with those bows on clips and later I have a collection of hair picks and I use various twists held with the picks. Easy and for me the best my hair is out of my face - never liked hair wisping on my face.
Notice with more and more of my neighbors aging when I see them at our grocery they really look smart - most can get away with narrow leg pants and a couple never stopped doing their ballet routine since they were kids and wow talk about posture and the look of stand tall confidence - I admire it but it will never be for me because it takes years and years of that kind of body work to achieve the look. That has always been the hardest task that I just never have been able to stick to a regular schedule and that is any kind of exercise or even a daily walk - I browbeat myself and get out for a walk that lasts for maybe 5 weeks than other things seem more important and once the routine is broken I just cannot get back nor frankly do I try - while it is light so late and nothing on TV and the news is same old same old this would be a great time to start again - I will not think long term - if I can just walk summer evenings that would be a step in the right direction.
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I grew up at the beach and then raced sailboats for many years, so my skin is not perfect by any means. I use a lot of sun screen and moisture creams, but as a blue eyed blonde, I am tickled to say that my dermotologists tells me I have wonderful skin for 75 and to keep up the good work.. So even though I admit to tanning until my 40's.. my very oily skin has kept its elasticity.
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Jane. I have lived here in C/ U since 64 still only a mile or 2 from campus . Never did see much going on.back.then. Once in awhile some one would come in and try to start some thing. students would get together a crowd behind the Union building voicing complaints. They didn't do damage or caused the problems we have these days. Most of it from gangs coming in from Chicago. They were talking of shutting down the Univ.police dept 2years ago but seems changed minds. The do a pretty good job but it has cost millions last few years from being sued for beating up students without cause.
You were here when the big complaints were that the students did not bath,smelled and dressed awful. I do remember the fuss about that. Said it was the ex Vietmen and wanted them all removed. That was a funny time. The say now over 30 pct of over 5 year students are from out of the USA. Very intL area now as 60 pct. of dr.and tech.are Asian most with families. I like it here.
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Jeanne...I was there in 68-69. Believe me the problems on campus were not about how students dressed or that they smelled. Don't you recall the problems by the groups at that time believed to be from Berkeley that destroyed drawers of catalog cards in the Main Library? All the other major research libraries started microfilming (new and fairly expensive in those days) their card catalogs so they'd have backups if this violence came to their campuses. I was in Library and Information Science grad school so was very interested in this damage.
Apparently a book has been written which mentions this destruction.
books.google.com/books?isbn=0252028295
Joy Ann Williamson - 2003 - Education
The University of Illinois, 1965-75 Joy Ann Williamson ... vandals removed and burned thousands of card catalogs from the university library. University officials estimated it would take years and tens of thousands of dollars to replace the cards.
I was not there in 1965-66 nor after I got my degree in 1969, but I know what happened while I was there.
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The 60's and Viet Nam caused so many long term problems on campus.. and just ordinary life. I know that some of my neighbors were outraged that we were against the war and refused to even speak to us or let their children play with ours.. Sigh.
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I have never in all of my long years been able to figure out why such a large segment of mindsets are convinced to the last brain wire that a human being who feels it is a mistake for this country to take on the stupendous investment of the lives of our children and the wealth of our nation to engage in a war elsewhere on the globe in which indigenous peoples have been fighting one another, but have not attacked the United States of America, is a traitor to our nation and not a Patriot! Yet those who are gung ho that we must take on a given war (supposedly in order to stop Communism, which is Satan personified and should take top priority over any and all other considerations in our lives in the case of Viet Nam, or oil or water or fishing, and always money) immediately take the strong stance that everyone else must be with THEM or be branded traitors to their very own country and birthplace! Give me a BREAK! But this has been and is and most likely will continue to be the way it is.
I think our species just may have evolved into irrational thinking and insanity. I swear. I do.
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Viet Nam always baffled me. We honestly did not have a dog in that hunt as they say in the south. We just sort of stumbled in for no good reason. Sigh.
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The History News Network newsletter today had a headline for an article "Yes, Paula Dean is a Racist, but It's Not Like She Repealed the Voting Rights Act." The subtle, sophisticated racists/sexists can do much more harm then some of the more obvious ones. We can't let the media direct our attention, we have to stay vigilant.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I find the Texas legislater interesting. Never heard of her before. Possibly an up and comer..
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The news I heard is that some of the group objected when she had to have her back brace adjusted...said she hadn't been talking continually, etc., but that didn't hold. The news report said she's a single mom of 2...and a graduate of Harvard Law School. Maybe she will be the next Barbara Jordan. What a wonderful legislator and speaker Ms Jordan was. I don't think the "good ol' boys" knew what hit them when she spoke!
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I am thrilled to bits with our having overcome racial prejudice and having a black president.
I am ever so pleased this country has come to a majority acceptance of Gays and Lesbians and so forth.
But my stomach churns out bitter acid over the so successful put down of women and the control over women's choices for their own Lives and Bodies by men.
Why are we always last?
Why are the women of this nation ALLOWING the men to do this? Their sudden awareness in the balcony of the Texas State House night before last that they could make an angry noise as a group and stop the law against their choices from being passed was certainly a teachable moment. Perhaps, oh but I can HOPE, a moment that will turn the tide. But the bottom line is, the women of this country MUST recognize the incessant attack and pick themselves up and turn upon it and stop it.
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Yes it was interesting that the people in the balcony suddeny realized the power of dissent.. Now to keepthat up whenever the legislatures get stupid.
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I think there will be a HUGE turnout for the next session; the special session.
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They have already fixed it so there will not be a repeat and everyone knows the law will pass during this next special session including Davis.
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Another brave woman returns to the news......a 40's something young woman brought this article to my attention saying "i never heard of this woman".
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/politics/civil-rights-viola-liuzzo
I remember the controversy at the time. Some people who have to judge others made a huge pitch that Viola Liuzzo should have been home with her 5 children, somethingthat has been said to every activist women. But it never seems to be a statement said to men!?!
I've not been a conspiratist most of my life, but this is a story every person in the country should hear because of this sentence from the article "Racism, sexism and the FBI combined to provoke a backlash against her." REALITY CHECK.
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I remember the incident, though not her name. I was living in Israel at the time, and even there I heard all kinds of negative things about her.
I remember, she was billed as the first person to die for Civil Rights. An Israeli at the kibbutz where I taught said that to me, and I remember saying "no, she's the first WHITE person to die for Civil Rights."
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Now I remember, that was a while ago for sure.
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Have you seen Jimmy Carter's latest comments on how ALL the world's religions have systematically subjugated women? Sorry don't have time to find a link for it, but it was in our paper this morning. He really, REALLY lays it on the line!
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Mary...I found information on him and religion from 2009...
Jimmy Carter: How religion subjugates women
http://www.salon.com/2009/07/16/jimmy_carter/
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Thanks, jane - obviously, he's said something more recently, too.
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Or it was a slow news day and a journalist found that and didn't see the original date. :)
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Every thing he says is true.
Religions, which have historically always been invented by men, have been used as a means, through articles of faith, to make of women mere household servants and garden plots for growing more male babies.
Women have been browbeaten into believing this to be their god given role in life.
That is why a woman who expresses ideas is "forward, uppity, brash, loud-mouthed, pushy, bold, dominant, and, oh my gosh, acts like a man!"
By telling people how a god wants things to be and them to behave, there can be a humongous control of the populace.
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Most religions put down women terribly. There are few that did not, but most of them had women in charge who were not quite with us.. spiritualists,, The Shakers ( founded by Mother Ann). Religion in the end , at least the major ones have a lot to answer for.
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It is just flat out so patently obvious that the white men in suits who are holding hands and saying prayers and flaunting their religion like a sash full of boy scout badges won, and passing every sort of bill they can invent to make obstacle mines to prevent women from making their own decisions about the flesh of their bodies and how they can function within the cycles forced upon them by their female bodies, are doing all of this NOT for the sake of the lives and health of women and children, but to keep women ever in a second class of citizenship, chained by male designed laws meant to keep them there for all eternity.
I just SCREAM wondering why all women do not see this. Why do women parrot what these men say and willingly give up their rights? They were BORN in nature with these rights, but they grow up and relinquish them entirely to these men in suits. Why? Do they honestly and truly believe to their core that they will burn in hell forever if they do not?
What a waste.
What a shame.
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Another fabulous woman i never heard of even tho i did an independent study on medieval women in grad school. I agree with History Witch's last sentence...........altho i don't understand the title of the article.......:)
http://historywitch.com/2013/06/30/stand-between-two-trees-and-push/
So i continued to search, here's her bio, very interesting, a doctor and a teacher at a time when we think of women being very oppressed. How many more women are out there who have been hidden from our minds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotula
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Jane. I think that back in thos days things going on over in the univ. area were not all publicized in our local paper.. They still don't. It's like they want to make it that every thing is perfect. Not on any campus anymore. They want these large donations to keep coming.
My soninlaw. Donates and gets the qtr. reports. Everything perfect. I have friends over with them so get to hear lots. We had 15 students raped in this first qtr but not one in the paper. 3prof. Have had to leave town. Who knows why?
3 of mine are grads and we still think we would like the ggkids there later. ..
Still would like a better football team also. Really lots of things wrong with leaders there.
My grandson is now a dean at Missouri state and same things happen. Schools have just gotten to big now.
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doorbelll rang.. mark.
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Mary - i saw that article about Carter's comments about a month or so ago and thought it was wonderful of him to make that public statement. Rosalyn must be doing a good job of educating him. :D :D
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Jean, don't you remember the wonderful Miss Lillian?
I think it was she!
I think Rosalind was one lucky young woman, because he was already convinced when she met him!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillian_Gordy_Carter
http://www.peacecorps.gov/resources/returned/staycon/lilliancarter/
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Yeah, i certainly do remember Miss Lillian, but when i read Rosalyn's book, if i remember it correctly after 20 yrs, i got the impression that when they first got married Jimmy was in charge! He decided to leave the navy - a life that Rosalyn really enjoyed - to go home to help with the peanut farm, without discussing it with her at all. I think he had to have his conscience raised, as did most of our husbands through the decades. I think he learned tolerance and fairness from Miss L, but he seemed to still have a patriarchal attitude about women, which makes sense. But he was obviously willing to be educated, especially after he had a daughter and after his mother was widowed.
I've noticed while learning about women's lives, that women tend to come into their own when they no longer have home, husbands or children to take care of - that might mean after becoming empty nesters, widows, divorcees, or had enough money to hire someone else to do those tasks (ER, especially in he White House).
Jean
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Yes, the last almost four years have taught me that women do come into their own, when they are the only one left to make decisions. It is truly hard at first for our generation that went from parents to college to marriage with no inbetween of our own, but it can be done..
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Here is another perspective, re: companies dropping Paula Deen, that includes the sexism and sexual harrassment going on in their restaurants.
http://nursingclio.org/2013/07/03/no-paula-deen-its-not-just-men-being-men/
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We still do not know if the case is someone with a vendetta or if it is a fact until there is a judgement - I just see this as fuel to the fire - restaurant work is hard - very hard and there is a dress code not only by the owner but by law - and so until we have something more than hear-say this is one more in the pile of articles trying to bring down the lady - I cannot help see others who have far more egregious behavior are not being written up and called out - if this does turn out to be true than Paula and Bubba have a lot to take care of to clean up their act.
Surprising they only include Bubba what about her two sons and her uncle that all have successful restaurants with Paula as co-owner. If they have no law suite than what does that say about Paula - in one restaurant she is a good employer and in another she is not - or are we talking trusted but not supervised every day managers who are guilty and since she is an owner she gets the publicity.
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(a repeat of my answer in The Library)
Maybe her sons are better managers then she and Bubba. I think the info is from the depositions from the law suit against she and Bubba.
Jean
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OK sounds like you have made up your mind and for some reason decided her crimes are too great and she deserves all this - Wow and then we wonder how it is that women are not supported by other women - yep I am flabbergasted what male owner of a large corporation who is accused of harassment is put through this kind of public humiliation much less do they even loose investors - even if she is guilty does she deserve this? Evidently to bring a suite not a judgement to the attention of folks sure helps to justify the vitriol.
Again I just wonder how she is so different when she is in her Son's establishment or her Uncles Seafood Restaurant as compared to the one she and Bubba run. Makes no sense, but if you are aga'n' her well sense is not an issue.
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Have a Glorious Celebration of this grand day for us all, and then turn your eyes to Texas and North Carolina and the battle for Women's Independence and control over their own bodies!
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Jean...thanks for that deposition infor. It's unfortunate that Bubba doesn't seem to have the sense God gave a goose.
jane
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Yes,Bubba is an idiot, but Paula protects him. I know baby brother, but she is not helping him and was harming employees. Everyone is wrong, but her and Bubba and everyone is evil and againstg her in the deposition.
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(some of a comment i posted inThe Library).........
Barbara mentioned that there was a lit of guilt by assocation re: Bubba and Paula.
This is not "guilt by association" as i see it. She is the CEO of the corporation and part owner of the restaurantin which the harassment was taking place. Therefore she has liability. Either she's lying,or she's developing dementia, or she's high. Nobody who is in business can "not remember" so many details as she in answering questions about her business. She's all over the place in her answers.
But, all of that is not important to anyone but those who have been involved. As was said in a headline "its not like she struck down the Voting Rights Act." it is just another snapshot that tells us we should not forget that those kinds of things are definitely happening in this country. So many people are sheltered from the "meaness" that still exists even here in the USA. I keep hearing people say "really? That really happened? That was really said? The cop really treated you that way? Your boss said/did that?" unfortunately, the answer is still "Yes!"
I really could get depressed, but i can balance those actions with some major progress, which keeps me hopelessly optimistic.
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Jean my reference to guilt by association is her being called guilty by any of us, the public, because of written reports that have associated her 'assumed behavior' to what we can imagine - we do not know other than what is on official record. The only record we have is an accusation - a complaint - there has been no judgement and based on the accusation we have all this harsh opinion against the women as CEO -
Again, I reiterate this is not typical of the experience for a male CEO with similar accusations - I know of no male CEO who has lost whole hunks of their business because the public used their imagination to believe guilt by associating with supposition and references that only gives us a picture of the accusers viewpoint along with what is written about by reporters so that we can put our imagination in play. Our guilty verdict is so embedded that when she did try to be honest about her past it was thrown back at her.
Having lost my job and reputation in that company because of assumptions when I was going through a very bad patch I know the pain of people gossiping and assuming they know not only what happened by why I did not act as they would have within their idea or imagination of the situation or that I 'should have' known in advance what was happening - this is what supports my disgust about making a judgement based on our imagination.
Until we have facts I choose to support Paula - I am sure she does not need my support - most of us can hardly dream of what it takes to amass an empire as she has however, I do not like seeing what this is bringing out in people. I do not like seeing that unless a women is perfect we cannot support her. Many a man is far from perfect and yet, we support, vote for, or make him rich.
I am not picking up that the lack of support here is done as tongue and cheek as we often do when we think someone has jumped too far or in a way we do not agree - I am not good at writing it but it is affective however, I am not picking up that there are posts here using satire and irony. And yes, I do think there is much blame based on public and reporter's gossip and an accusation document that combined reminds me of Arthur Miller's play.
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Since I never cared for Paula after the diabetes stupidity, I am not all of a sudden against her. I do not think that anyone,male or female needs to be perfect. I have heroines.. Julia never once made money on anything except her cookbooks. She never endorsed, and only was on public tv.. Margaret Meade, huge heroine of mine led a very checkeredife in many many ways, but I have always admire her. Pearl Buck,, oh me, was involved in several serious scandals, I still count her as a heroine in my book.. It just depends and after reading the deposition, there was way too much dancing around the truth, but she is being punished too severely for that. Since I never watch her shows, dont buy her labeled products, etc,I do not have a dog in this fight.
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I don't have a dog in this fight, either, Steph. Since I had never heard of Paula Dean until this came up, and since I have never been interested in cooking or cookbooks or cooking shows or restaurants of renown, other than those within my patronage, I really should keep my mouth shut. The brouhaha got my back up initially because it is once again a woman, but my ignorance of the circumstances and lack of familiarity with the woman caution me to wait the whole thing out.
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There are so many brave and heroic women in real life that I wish I was,,, oh well. I can admire them..
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a very short story from a newspaper during the Revolutionary war extolling the virtues of the Women who collected for the Continental Army
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.loa.org/images/pdf/Anon_Sentiments_Lady.pdf
Here is the link to the come-on for the story with a bit more information with a copy of a painting of Esther De Berdt Reed
http://links.loa.org/YesConnect/HtmlMessagePreview?a=oizJlesGlVhRwYGjFwilRi
And this has even more relevant information on what happened and how the story is related to ancient Greek women's experience
http://storyoftheweek.loa.org/2013/07/the-sentiments-of-lady-in-new-jersey.html
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Just became a facebook friend to the legislature female in Texas. Interesting.
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DO keep us informed!
That should be interesting.
My second husband was a native of Dallas. All of his folks and most of our generation are gone now, but, conservative though I found most from Big D to be, the women were most definitely on the Pro-Choice side of things. And I am talking about my mother-in-law and her huge circle of friends, the women of my age, and the daughters and granddaughters. They wanted their contraception, their hysterectomies at age forty, and their freedom/private control over their bodies. They wanted their decisions to give birth or not to give birth to be THEIRS, and not public policy. David died in 1997. I went down to Dallas and visited after his death, but have not been down there for over 15 years now. I mean, the family of our generation really is gone. But bottom line, I cannot believe Texas women have suddenly changed course all that much. The ones I knew were just never political, but I think the likes of Wendy Davis can get the new generations to wake up and smell the males trying to control the workings of THEIR wombs!
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Have y'all found the blog Margaret and Helen (http://margaretandhelen.com/)? Helen writes it, and she lives in Texas. Her entry from last week is prime! Check it out.
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Wonderful post! Thanks Mary for the link. I haven't read them for a while. Always a joy.
Here's an email I sent to some friends yesterday......from the Nurse Clio blog yesterday....
.[Girl Cheese!!! Yep! That's what i said! Girl cheese! Who knew we could have gendered cheese!?!
.............ridiculous.............short article, don't miss the comments......... He's got a book, she's got jewelry!
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/07/03/the-weird-new-world-of-girl-cheese//color]
Jean
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Great Margaret and Helen piece - and a Wendy Davis does not happen in a vacuum - much planning and chess playing went into her filibuster that also included assuring there were fans in the gallery - smart fans who know the rules therefore, they could erupt as they did when they noted the rule-breaking tactics. Like many of the strong women before her, Barbara Jordan, Liz Carpenter, Ann Richards, their support is strongest among the educated women of Texas who are willing to step beyond the traditional views of this conservative state. This state basis its conservative mindset mostly in 'Washington, leave us alone' and so with that mantra women, blue or red there is a unifying pull that says to the male leadership of the state - 'leave us alone!'
A Gloria Steinem quote - "Institutional control of women’s reproductive capacities has been the cornerstone of the patriarchal system since its inception a few thousand years ago." The patriarchy of this country have been gradually loosing control. It is not just Texas where bills are passing the state legislature - other states need their Wendy Davis. Without a strong feminist leader freedom for women is scattered and ineffective.
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Pictures on the news of the largefemale crowds gathering in Texas, not that Perry cares. He is busy deep in his idiocy to become the president once again. Sigh.
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Well, I for one wish it would be Rick Perry, Republican male pinhead against Hilary Clinton, Democrat female wonder woman. It would settle the War Against Women battle once and for all.
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I love Hillary, but she is a target to many people.
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Steph...I think she did wonderful things as Secy of State, but I'm not sure she's a good candidate for Pres. I don't know who would be yet.
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Jane, I agree.She is carrying some heavy baggage.. I lean toward Elizabeth Warren, but she is not that well known yet.
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Oh Steph! If I could make my very own choice, it would be ELIZABETH WARREN all the way!
I was an Obama supporter, not a Hilary supporter.
I am very, very opposed to dynasties, and I cannot help but agree with Barbara Bush (who knew!) that this country is way too vast for there to be any need for dynasties.
Yes, I want a woman, but up there backaways when I said Clinton, that was just an assumption that her candidacy is a given. And I think it is. But if I had a bazillion dollars, I would do everything the Brothers Koch do and then do them some better and sell Warren to the country and buy the votes for Warren.
I mean, one bag of dirty tricks deserves another few bags.
And this old bag would do it if she could!
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Really!?! I love Elizabeth Warren's idealogy and her fight for good policy, but compared to Hillary's experience and knowledge? No comparison, in my mind. Hillary has been through the fires, honed and forged like steel AND she can win. She has a broad constituency.
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And Bill is not the anchor he was 8 years ago...
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Oh , make no mistake, I will vote for and support Hillary..and work for her if I can. But I have conservative friends ( sigh) and they are like rabid dogs if you mention her name. Truly hate beyond any norm..
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I think it can be traced back to that video Jerry Falwell sent out attacking the Clinton's over WhiteWater and claiming they had Vince Foster killed. In short, it accused them of murder. I read in the paper back in the day that he sent out 250,000 of these.
This morning I wake up to the Washington Post headline that the Republicans have done away with food stamps.
That does it!
We have the party of Hate and the party of Peace & Goodwill.
And I guess all peoples who have a desperate need to join the raging rivers of hate will have their heyday.
I just hope Peace & Goodwill can prevail. I was a lifelong Republican, from darling Wendell Wilkie right through Gerald Ford. Then I balked at Reagan, and the reason was that for the first time EVER, in 1980, my Republican Party put abortion in its platform. And I could not sign on to that. Never imagined I would become a Democrat, but here I am. It all went topsy turvy in my beloved South. First my party that freed the slaves fought the Democrats who killed to keep segregation. Then all of a sudden, the people on each side changed their party affiliation! I guess it was that Dixiecrat thing and Thurman and his cronies. But I tell the young, and they just stare at me with faraway looks in their eyes, that in my very own lifetime everything political party wise was Just The Opposite of what it is today throughout the South.
I do think, and I do hope, my beloved Virginia is cracking under the strain of finding these crazies credulous.
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MaryPage - i used to talk about that very topsy-turvy happening to my college classes. It was a very interesting historical event.
Jean
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The change of the "Solid South" from Democratic to Republican was a result of the so-called Southern Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy), started by Nixon and Goldwater. Check it out.
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There was a time, and it seemed a lifetime to me, as it was all I knew growing up, when my home state of Virginia was owned, lock, stock and barrel, as they used to say, by the Democrats. It was a political "machine," just like in Chicago and New York. I swear. Harry Byrd was the head and it was known as The Byrd Machine. He was a Senator and was brother to the Admiral Byrd who famously went to the North Pole. Many times back in the day you could see either one of them just walking down the street in Winchester. The Byrd family owned a lot of apple orchards.
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What gets me is how folks argue apples when the discussion is about oranges - they do not understand how they can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time - I know I am - I just want me and my doctor to make the decision like any guy can expect about his anatomy and health choices.
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Well, exactly. Precisely.
Men just don't get it. Have you ever in your entire LIFE heard a woman say: "I think I'd like to have an abortion?" Have you ever imagined, or could you imagine, a public hall full of women and someone asking them to raise their hands if they would like to have an abortion?
No woman WANTS to have an abortion. I don't care a fig for all the people who have said: "Oh, I know a woman who has used abortion as birth control." I do not believe it. Perhaps there are a few women, a handful of women, who have had more than one abortion. They had to, I say HAD TO, have been driven to it by extreme necessity. No woman WANTS to have an abortion.
I have never had an abortion. To my knowledge, none of my 5 daughters has ever had an abortion. To my knowledge, 2 of my 13 granddaughters has had an abortion. I have no idea, in short, whether or not any of my daughters ever had, for they have never told me they have. They have said that they have not, and I believe them. I also tend to believe that the 2, one to each, of my granddaughters who have had an abortion, and only the one each, are the only abortions among my 13 granddaughters. The one is now the mother of 3 living children and the other of 1 living child. They had extremely compelling reasons for requiring those abortions, and it most definitely did not include WANTING to have an abortion or not wanting to be a mother.
No, the men are wrong. Women come complete with the desire, for most, to have children. Most women. Most of the time. But whether a woman has the desire to be a mother or not, she does not, she never ever does, DESIRE AN ABORTION! It is anti-nature.
But abortions have been had for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, and will continue as long as our species exists. Historians have read and written about and scientists have confirmed that there was once upon this planet a natural abortionificant plant that grew. They know that it especially grew profusely around the Mediterranian, with huge amounts reported growing wild in North Africa. It was a "weed". It was all used up. People never thought to plant and grow it. They thought it would always be there. But demand outraced supply, and it has disappeared. Gone extinct.
Our personal and private lives belong to each of us.
Decisions about our bodies are ours to make.
And the same damn men who want to RULE that all of these babies be born are the ones who vote against feeding them once they are here!
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Yes, they just REMOVED a lot of money for food stamps from the agriculture bill to give a lot of money to agribusinesses!
Jean
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what shocks me and took the air out of my tire is that it is women who are behind these anti-abortion bills bringing little booties to the podium when they talk.
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There you have it.
The FOCUS of the two groups in opposition is different.
Women who have been duped by men to be on the other side are not thinking of themselves or the generations of women who came before them or their daughters and granddaughters. The spotlight is completely on a being who has never been born. Has never taken a breath. For them, it is like a political baby shower!
Focus should be entirely on the woman who is already here! On the human being trying her best to make a decent life for herself and her family. Trying, trying, trying. And the men just want to push her back down into despair. To no hope.
Again, please note that the women haters who are figuratively lifting those unborn children up high above the altar will block every effort later to feed, house, clothe and educate them.
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Yes, just two days ago , I had lunch with three delightful women.. two of which are rabid conservatives. They were actually making a list of all the people they think the Clintons had killed. Sort of sad actually.. You could never change them. They simply would not listen to reason. The third woman said nothing and looked at me.. I just said nothing as well. Ihave lost several friends in the past few years to the conservative-liberal thing.. I have a young friend who is the most conservative human, I know.. She is truly angry ,, very smart... and prone to horrible cartoons on facebook..Sigh. I have known her since she was about 6.. I remember her teens and early 20's and know that she had an abortion,, ran away with a horrible abusive male and finally landed safely into a good marriage and three children. Now she is so anti abortion, it is scary.. I know that if I brought it up, she would say, she was an exception, but of course she wasnt.. Sad.
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Given the nature of remarks made to the Texas House by those condemning pro-choice as their way to support pro-life, not only horrified me - It was like being in another galaxy - I had not heard such low, nasty, emotional, over the top demeaning of women as over sexed, promiscuous, sluts, murders, baby killers you name it in 40 years. The only difference instead of an army of men testifying in this manner as it was 40 years ago this time to my shock it was 90% women!!
My salvation has been to keep these famous quotes on my mind, repeat them often and keep some dignity knowing we will have a law suit very soon.
"Observe which side resorts to the most vociferous name-calling and you are likely to have identified the side with the weaker argument and they know it." ~ Charles R. Anderson
"A last trick is to become personal, insulting, rude, as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, and that you are going to come off worst. It consists in passing from the subject of dispute, as from a lost game, to the disputant himself, and in some way attacking his person. It may be called the _argumentum ad personam_, to distinguish it from the _argumentum ad hominem_, which passes from the objective discussion of the subject pure and simple to the statements or admissions which your opponent has made in regard to it. But in becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack to his person, by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. It is an appeal from the virtues of the intellect to the virtues of the body, or to mere animalism. This is a very popular trick, because every one is able to carry it into effect; and so it is of frequent application." --Arthur Schopenhauer (1788—1860) German philosopher.
"He that flings dirt at another dirtieth himself most."
--English proverb
"If you can't answer a man's argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names. --attributed to Elbert Hubbard (1859—1915)
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Since when did the Pro-Choice Blue become adopted instead of the red they have ALWAYS & TRADITIONALLY used for all of their demonstrations and bumper stickers and pins, etc. by the Anti-Abortion people?
Well, apparently Pro-Choice let it happen without a squeak!
So now? Well, now I am going to be wearing a LOT of orange!
Gawd, I wish I weren't 84 and ailing. I'd be right in there!
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Here Pro-life uses blue - rather than go to red, pro-choice used the burnt orange which has symbolic meaning to UT - the more state tradition that could be pulled into the fray the better. Red is Texas Tech up on Lubbock and it could also be close to maroon for A&M. Both student bodies very conservative plus, the Pubs that just about own the state make this a red state. However, the Pubs adopted red white and blue using both the American and Texas flag back when Shrub was running for office and so burnt orange was a color not used ever by Pubs - it brought the issue away from the traditional Dem vs Pub and is associated with a well revered liberal, as compared to the rest of the state, University with its principle campus located in the most liberal spot in the state.
Here symbols and colors and our state flag and our state history and myths are big - elections are won calling them to the attention of the public - this is how Perry won his last election - he had nothing to say but was the best dang cowboy Texians ever saw ride into Austin. There is fierce rivalry between A&M and Texas - with Perry a graduate of A&M one more reason to flaunt burnt orange which is like a suerte de capote to Perry.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q71/s720x720/1013141_10151716052941838_33421152_n.jpg)
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I just looked in on the political discussion on Seniors and Friends to see what was being said about the Texas legislature's behavior and the Zimmerman decision. I know many of us have tried to be a part of that discussion, but there are a few people on there who drive out any sensible, adult discussion.
I left this reply for them...............
"Why can't people of differing opinions have an adult conversation about issues any more without name-callng and demeaning each other? If you were talking to a friend who disagreed with you, would you call them names, would you be scarcastic about their opinions? I just don't undertand, is it because we aren't face-to-face, that we can't actually see each other's faces, or that we won't have to meet each other in the super market, or at church or at a family gathering, so you really don't know me, i am invisible and therefore have no responsibility for what i say?
I blame the Archie Bunker show. I laughed at a lot of that show, but it was the first show on television where people were face to face rude and demeaning to each other. I'm sorry it happened. I like having smart, adult conversations about issues, but it's hard to find these days."
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Turned 80 this year. I feel I am again living in the 1930-50s and we have lost all that women fought for as far as our rights. I just don't understand where these people came from who say they don't want government in their lives but have no problem interfering with others lives. These people who don't care if others go without food, medical attention, the right to vote without standing in line for hours, the right to a fare wage. Had a discussion about abortion in the event of rape with a Right-to-Life friend. She said she knew a woman who "chose" to keep the baby. I reminded her that indeed she did have a "choice."
I hope we still have the strength to fight and that younger women will wake up to what is being done to them.
Laugh at those legislatures who have bills to outlaw Sharia Law. Sharia Law --Republicans are practicing it now.
Wonder how long it will be before the President of Mexico shows up to shout "Tear Down This Fence!"
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Oh my, so many thoughts I agree with!
And I also agree that there is no sense to attacking A PERSON because of their views. Their opinions are as good as mine! They have precisely the same right to them as have I.
Perhaps we are discovering a main factor in the great divide in this country.
There are those who want to understand, comfort, console, assist and restart other folks. And there are those who want to bind up and control and stamp down upon other folks.
The helpers care and the controllers condemn.
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Mabel
That is the main reason why most people have not posted on the political boards on Seniorsand friends any longer. I'm sure marry page feels the same.
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You got that right!
Scheesch!
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I remember senior net and the horrid fury engendered on the political discussions.This is the only political discussion and you can bet if we had a lot of men on here, they would be busy telling us how to run our lives on this discussion. I remember Women only on Seniornet and the men on that one.
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If the men come in here with a mindset to put us down, or anyone, male or female, comes in to attack us personally instead of the issues, I will just pick up my old shoes and depart. Leave. Quit.
This is not a matter of feeling defeated on the battlefield, but rather a refusal to consider it a battlefield in which one may wound another on purpose. I prefer a debate.
And one of the rules I like in any debate is that you can put forth your facts and your arguments on behalf of your proposed solutions to problems without attacking another debater. And you MUST be stating facts that can be corroborated, and not making things up. As someone famously said: You are entitled to your own set of opinions, but you may not make up your own set of facts. Or something like that!
Recently, I left not one, but two forums that had a lot to do with opinions, but nothing to do with politics, because someone attacked my taste and my intelligence. Imagine! I was shocked. And my attitude remains: if you are going to be that way, this is no longer a civilized forum and I do not belong here. By the way, and a sad way it is, it was the same person in both places. Oh well!
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I am so excited! Great granddaughter Bella, who will be 11 next month, is to accompany her paternal grandmother on a college semester trip around the world from January 10, 2014 to May 2, 2014. It is an annual voyage set up by the University of Virginia (known to us Virginians simply as The University) and this grandmother works for that program. So Bella will see 16 cities in 12 countries in 112 days, and take some shipboard college courses as well. Bella goes to the same private school her mother, my granddaughter, attended, and they are all for her taking a semester off to do this. There is nothing to beat travel for opening the windows of the mind!
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Thank you all for being here and for voicing your opinions and sharing info everyday.
Wow! MaryPage! Sounds wonderful. Wouldn't we all love to be on that trip?
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What a great experience for your great-granddaughter, MaryPage! I wish I could do that now. :D
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Whoowh several messages since I started to write this but here it is - OK fair is fair - I agree none of us want the vitriol of men speaking for us with their viewpoint which is to save their sperm in all instances. However, we are not giving room either for any who post in Senior Learn who may see pro-life without a choice as valable.
Could we respectfully listen - do we know how to listen for areas of agreement - and if we did and we could find no agreement would we all be tempted to add our two cents so who ever had the courage of her conviction would be dumped on by all of us who are in agreement. Because we have enjoyed an agreement on most issues that pertain to women we make this discussion very different than the one on Senior and Friends.
For many years the pro-life folks had men speaking and seemed to be dominated by men - this time to my shock it is mostly women - I saw mostly young women with families bringing their children and husband. I wonder how much is still an issue that once a women becomes dependent on a man as many women experience when their children are young, in order to assure peace at home they adapt to a man's thinking to the point of becoming rapid in the adoption of these ideas. But then I have never had a women explain why she is pro-life except to bring in the innocence of a not yet formed potential child. Trying to suggest that is like apples to oranges and the conversation quickly becomes an exercise of condemning name calling.
Again,the quote from Arthur Schopenhauer about substituting name calling for discussion, suggests this is not an issue the pro-life folks have thought through more than the potential child and controlling anyone who is not accepting of, not only a potential child not yet formed but even the first few days attachment of the sperm to the egg.
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I still think the answer is to promote to everyone the day after pill and to not live in fairly land innocence and explain to young girls by the time they are 11 the process happening to them - ignorance is a breeding ground for predators - why do we think it is wholesome to keep young girls from the knowledge of their own bodies - I know it was considered an embarrassment to discuss when my daughter was young but I forged on when she was about 14 without the helps out there now - seems to me the process is now taught in schools that will allow it - anyhow with this teaching I think girls should all have a day after pill intro -
We know that 2 out of every 10 girls are sexually abused and another 2 out of every 10 making it 4 out of every 10 girls are molested. Molestation and abuse usually starts for most at the age of 5 or 6 - the habit of how to understand love is set after years and most do not want their family member going to jail and they do not want to have to leave the house so it is kept a secret that they then are more accepting of boys sexual advances.
We could at least arm these girls with the knowledge of protection while they still control their secret - or do we take all power and control from them in our rage - our rage is not about justice it is about our horror with the predator and shattering helpless anger at ourselves for not realizing what was happening, as if we could wipe the issue and our feelings off the face of the earth by taking a girl's only power and control out of her hands.
We are talking about minimum a quarter of all girls who do not realize they are being set up for rape since the come-on sounds familiar. There would be a huge fight trying to teach in public schools the day after pill during sex education therefore, I think the only way to give the idea legs is to start a campaign - we probably need an outline of words and then if you think this idea has legs we could all email our list.
I believe in empowering women even if they are only 11 or 12 years old. Even if we started with what to see that is dangerous for a college age girl - rape is not the stranger on a dark street - or even the stranger climbing in your window - sometimes it is a friend but often it is a date - we talk of date rape but the process, the words used are not made into a cartoon and then more ads for the day after pill.
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I know that I will not put people down who believe in Prolife.. but my problem is that I believe that your body is just that yours, not anyone elses to give orders to. Believe in prolife, but dont try to force me into believing it.. Yes, there are a lot of women involved in this and really dont know why. I do know that if you outlaw abortion, you are simply moving it back underground and that is a horrible thing.
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Oh, it is SO obvious what happened re the women in Texas.
The men got together and told each other about the TV and radio and Facebook and Twitter and newpaper accounts of The War On Women and the Republicans being anti-women.
And so the preachers got the women out and the male politicians got their women out and they put the women and the booties up in front of the microphones to make it seem like, shucks Ma'am, y'all jist Know most little women are Pro Life.
I agree with you, Steph; I will not attack someone who feels deeply in their heart against abortion.
But you are right: this is MY damn body and I want no laws from the government, any government, as to what decisions about the medical care of my body will be made. My doctors and I can take care of that. It is a PRIVATE matter and does not belong on the public lawbooks.
As for abortion, feel what you may, nobody and no laws will ever prevent abortions from taking place on a daily basis all over this planet. Even animals do it in extremity and when something is wrong. The whole point in making it legal, THE WHOLE POINT, was and will be to SAVE LIFE! The life of the woman seeking the abortion! We were dying in DROVES from coat hangers and such. Scheesch!
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Well said everybody. I say ditto!
My "In the words of women" newsletter highlighted Catherine Sedgewick today. She's one if the first published women, particularly f novels, in the country. Here is a link to the newsletter and a link to her Wikipedia page. Click on the blue links to read her works.
http://inthewordsofwomen.com/?p=825
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharine_Sedgwick#Writings
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If you subscribe to THE NEW YORKER, or can get your hands on the July 8 & 15, 2013 (a "double" issue), do read the stupendously wonderful article by Jill Lepore titled THE PRODIGAL DAUGHTER. The cover is black, with an ever so clever reverse cartoon cover of the Sesame Street characters sitting on a couch watching the Supreme Court. Anyway, Lepore writes most beautifully here about Jane Franklin, beloved sister to Benjamin. They came from a family of 17 children, and were Benny and Jenny, each others favorite. They had a life long correspondence and he wrote to her more than any other person. Who knew? Oh, do read it if you possibly can!
Here in my part of the country, we have lost our largest abortion clinic. In Fairfax, Virginia. They simply could not redo their rented space to conform with the state's new requirements, which are that they be built and equipped just like a fully functioning hospital! Right now, Girlfriends, we are LOSING this battle!
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The Choice issue and birth control are big issues. But there are smaller things that make me sad also. My son was criticized by on of his superiors in the Army because he asked that his wife be better informed about what was happening with his unit when he was deployed to Afghanistan - he was told his wife, a senior in college in Wisconsin, should be there on the base in Georgia with the rest of the wives (in a place with no jobs and, for her, no support system for their daughter), rather than finish her degree. He supported his wife, and she graduated and is now employed down there. But to me it smacks of "women's place."
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We are losing because doctors are getting lawsuit conscious and refuse to stand up and agree that an abortion clinic does not need all of the bells and whistles as a stand alone clinic or hospital. The hospitals are terrified of law suits and refuse priviledges to abortion providers.. Why oh why do the medical people not stand up and let this stupidity go on..
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because pro-lifers are diligent with lawsuits that no one much less a doctor can afford the cost in money and time - they seem to have all the time in the world and they are backed by their group so money is no object. A doctor only has himself and his insurance that the premiums can go out of sight if the insurance is used.
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The funds, seemingly unlimited, of religious organizations are flowing into the anti-abortion campaign without cease.
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My son was criticized by on of his superiors in the Army because he asked that his wife be better informed about what was happening with his unit when he was deployed to Afghanistan - he was told his wife, a senior in college in Wisconsin, should be there on the base in Georgia with the rest of the wives (in a place with no jobs and, for her, no support system for their daughter), rather than finish her degree. He supported his wife, and she graduated and is now employed down there. But to me it smacks of "women's place."
That's a big thing, nlhome, and hurrah for them for doing something so wise for their future. Your DIL getting her degree and being near a support system is absolutely the right thing. You'd think military officers would have figured out what is important these days, given the way some of our young soldiers come back from Afghanistan. A wife with a degree could be the difference between living poorly and with a chance. Again, you obviously did a very good job raising a young man who thinks!!
jane
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Ah, the Army never changes.. Dependents are like sheep. They need to be corralled and kept in one place together. How stupid and old.
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Well basically, it is that all women are useless except in the kitchen and the bed. And they need to be WITH their husbands to provide the kitchen and bed functions. What the hell is the use of educating a female, for crying out loud? And what do our men marry them for, anyway? Certainly not to have them elsewhere filling up their minds with stuff they'll never need for what they're good for: the kitchen and the bed.
I really drilled it into my daughters and granddaughters that FIRST they needed to get a full education and a profession. Whatever profession they found a passion for would do, but become the best you can be at that and you have an insurance policy for your and your children's future.
So they listened to me! And I got 2 teachers, a nurse, a bookkeeper and a vet.
And all but 1 of the 13 granddaughters did equally well. You win some and you lose some. Here's to the future of our fair sex.
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MaryPage, you did good.. No question about it. I only have sons, but they both were taught early and often that woman are of the same value as men and treat their wives and associates with equal praise and connections.
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Yes! Good job MaryPage.
We must thank the universe/goddess/god/mother nature/luck - whatever your preference - that we aren't in the record books as having the most children! How about 69? That record has some doubters, but the woman who had 37 single births and a set of twins is not in doubt! WTH! she was married to a doctor, an obvious sex addict/abuser/masochist and one who knew nothing about birth control, or the reproductive system, or abstinence! :) can you imagine? She must have been pregnant all of the time! Another reason to celebrate Margret Sanger's birthday on Sept 14!
From "History Witch" blog ........the title is "you can say no", but unfortunately we've probably known some women who couldn't, or feared to. These record-setting women must have been afraid to say no.
http://historywitch.com/2013/07/18/you-can-say-no/
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Think of the Texas family who kept having and having more children, until she kept miscarrying. Now one of their children is married and seems to be having a baby a year. But it keeps them on reality TV.. Reality Tv has a lot of horror stories to be responsible for.
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It is quite obvious that the human race does not for a nanosecond realize the peril it is in as a species because we insist upon having so many children.
The scientists know. They are quite stoic about it. We are going to be extinct, is what I hear them admitting on television. No one watches those programs.
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Ah, but that is mostly the old bugaboo.. religion.. I do read quite a lot about the fact that the bright educated couples are not having more than one child. The multitudes are coming from the uneducated. not a good sign, I am told.
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Yep, the un-educated the result is poverty or just on the fringe edge of the middle class who need free health care that planned parenthood provided who cling to their religion as their only solace and hope or the traditions that are intrenched in the family that were patriarchal heavy and have no money for decent legal aid and the women are regularly raped on the job and then many a husband demands so that for any peace or ability to fight for the big stuff the women goes along.
With more folks being pushed into poverty and less opportunity for higher ed because of cost - we are making up for the undocumented folks that used to do the work they want the folks in poverty to do who are not trained nor live in a climate where high heat and back breaking labor is normal -
So we are doing ourselves in with fewer educated citizens and more poverty, that the cost of assisting through government is far more expensive and now, more kids to keep the merry-go-round oiled. Looks like the army and navy will have more volunteers than they can finance and the folks investing in private jails will make a killing especially if the war on drugs continues and now we have them pushing for women to do jail time if they have an abortion. We already have women being jailed for protecting themselves from abusive husbands with similar force to their abuser.
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I haven't commented on the Zimmerman case, altho i have strong emotions about it, because others are doing a superb job of it. But let me just comment on the president's speech yesterday. In case any person thinks he was exaggerating the events that have happened to him, let me just say that everyone inour interracial family, including me, has had similar experiences.
They range from when my future DH and i were leaving his development in southern New Jersey, pulling out from a stop sign, so we couldn't have been driving too fast and Van (DH) said he saw the police car coming, so he was being extra careful. The cop stopped us, ask for Van's ID, where did he live? Even tho he had his license in his hand. Asked where were we going? Which, of course, was of no consequence, but Van said he was taking me to Philly. Cop asked where did i live - again, of no consequence. Van asked why we were stopped, cop said he was speeding, which was impossible. Then, even though it was just dusk and he could see me perfectly well, the cop came around to my side of the car and shone the flashlight in my face. He gave Van a "warning" which was really a warning about being with a white woman.
My dgt when driving her college boyfriend to the Trenton train station in her father's Diamante, a lower end luxury car, was followed down a Trenton street and into the parking lot of the train station. The boyfriend was about 6'2" and with them was a young man we had as a foster child who was about 6' and 250 lbs of muscle, he was a weight lifter. The cop told them to stay in the car and asked for her license and the car registration. He asked where they were going??? She said she was taking Nick to get the train. Who were the guys in the car? Whose car was it? Why were they in Trenton??? Then he walked around to ask for Nick's ID and saw he had on a Marine Corps shirt. Asked if he was a Marine, Nick said yes, and he said o.k. and left. The only explanation was that he thought these 3 young Black people should not have been driving that car. Pure harassment!
My son, a good student and well-known athlete, closed his eyes one day in class, the teacher asked him, in front of the class, if he was on drugs! He was furious! He has never even smoked a cigarette.
Friends of the same son stopped in front of our house one evening to unload a bike of a friend from the trunk of the car. Included in the group were 2 football players, 3 basketball players and the president of the junior class, all young Black men, none had ever been in trouble. I mention the athletes because we are a town of about 25,000, the police know the trouble-makers, but they also come to the games and know of the athletes and all of these boys where frequent visitors to the recreation center which is onthe same municiple property as the police dept and the police frequent it also. While they were unloading Anthony's bike, a police car pulled up behind the old white Plymouth with lights whirling. Within 3 minutes there was another police car and the K-9 truck and before the discussion ended a third police car was there. So neighbors were out to see what was going on. This was a neighborhood that was 85% Black, so it was not even that the cops were seeing these young men in the "wrong place."
The police asked what was happening - "we're dropping Anthony off to play basketball." "Whose bike is it?" Anthony's. "Anthony, what is the serial number on your bike!?!" Really??? I'm sure you've all had bikes growing up, do any of you know the serial numbers? "Where do you live?" (to each one) Our foster son had on a varsity jacket that had belonged to his cousin from another town, they asked him 3 times, why do you have on a "Boro" jacket?
My husband went out and asked what was the problem, said he knew these boys, they were good boys, not problems. The police responded that there was a report of a white cadillac creating a problem on Main St - 5 blocks away, AND this white plymouth looked nothing like a cadillac!
These were all boys who had been taught to respect authority, but all those cops did that night was to say to them, no matter who you are we will always suspect you because you have dark skin and will feel free to harass you when we please.
Now the irony is that that son and dgt of ours now have a cousin who is a NJ State Trooper and my dgt has a very good college friend who is also a NJ State Trooper. That is progress and i hope they are raising the conscience of the other troopers.
I just wanted to make it clear that when you hear any person of color speak about these experiences, they are not exaggerating or just repeating stories they've heard from others, and it is not just in the cities, or in the South, or to the poor. This is a suburban Philly town that was named the best place to live in the u.s. by Money Magizine about 7 yrs ago!!! They have ALL been in similar situations.
One other point, i think the prosecution missed an opportunity to have the 6 women jury identify with Treyvon Martin, what woman has not been on the street in a fearful situation for what negative event might happen to her? Such is life for people of color and women in this world. I am not saying that white men have not sometimes been in frightening situations, but i am sure it has not been as often or as scary for them as for us.
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Having lunch yesterday with two women from my old workplace and the one woman's mother (89 years). The mother commented on the Hispanic waitress - noting she probably wasn't from the US - another illegal. I said that she might have been born here. The interesting note is that her daughter's friend sitting across from her is Hispanic and she has known her for so long it doesn't occur to her
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Jean, I totally believe you. I KNOW it is true. All true.
And in my heart, I wanted Zimmerman to be found guilty of at least manslaughter. But I also knew it could not be. Not unless it could be proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was, in fact, Zimmerman on top and Martin screaming.
I think of Zimmerman as a puffed up, bigoted bully with no judgment whatsoever. I think of Martin as a kid who went to the store to get some sweets. I think of his death as an American Tragedy.
When will we learn? My mind drifts back constantly to the many young black martyrs we have had. Emmett Till. Many others. The superiority of those at the top of the pecking order is a disease of the human species. It seems to be in our and the genes of other mammals and birds.
Guns are like penises, the mark of a MAN and the insurance the man in possession will triumph. Men can rule that women must have ultrasounds and no abortions, but they have been unable to rule that pedophiles and rapists be castrated. OH MY GAWD NO! To take away their manhood would be the ultimate sin!
Yet they can take away our womanhood and our dominion over our own bodies.
The jury could not find Zimmerman guilty because of the items which must be present in Florida for a person, any person, to be found guilty of 2nd degree murder or of manslaughter. They had to be able to declare each item present to find the manslaughter they obviously wanted to find. They could not.
Florida needs to revise both gun laws, and guilty verdicts available.
This carrying of concealed weapons will become an ever more dire thing in our country. I suggest we muse upon a future time when some Senator or billionaire's son takes a swing at a concealed gun carrier and gets shot to death.
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Have any women in this nation besides me noticed there is and always has been a tremendous battle to prevent women from getting contraception, but the very MINUTE Viagra and the like hit the market, men were able to get it and get it paid for by their medical insurances?
I just wonder. As I wonder, always, why it is that there are more women than there are men, and more women voters than there are men, and simply heaps of men on our side, and yet we do not RISE UP and remedy this ridiculous situation! Scheesch!
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I agree MaryPage and i should have said that i think the jury probably decided in the only way they could legally. I thought the prosecution did not do a very good job, but i don't have all the facts of what they could ir could not work with, and there was definitely reasonable doubt. My emotion is based on knowing the reality that if the races had been reversed in the situation that the Black man who killed a white teenager would have surely been convicted; that i have worried about my Black young men family members finding themselves in similar situations; that, in my opinion, that Trayvon was "standing his ground" and that if Zimmerman had nit had a gun, no one would be dead.
Also, the irony of there being, in the same state, a Black woman who shot into the ceiling to scare off her abuser is in jail for TWENTY yrs! No one was hurt! She was in fear for her life! The stereotypes overwhelmed the facts in both of those cases.
We must not overlook the death of Helen Thomas. What a courageous and gutsy and colorful woman she was. I read her biography many years ago. I don't remember the title or author, but her life is a good read if you can find a bio of her.
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I remember when a friend of mine wanted her tubes tied in the 70's and the gyn insisted that she bring in her husband to sign for this. I was outraged.. But then my husband decided he wanted a vasectomy and his doctor insisted I come in and sign.. So that was strange, but quite true.
Viagra.. good heavens, they give that out like candy and it is expensive.. Old rich guys adore it, I understand.. Can you imagine if the invented a pill that gave instant orgasm for females, They would outlaw it immediately.
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My first husband and I had 3 daughters. My second husband and I had one son. He was also being father to and raising and supporting the 3 girls. So we had 4 children and were struggling, not in dire poverty, but trying to keep up with braces and all the rest, and we decided we wanted for me to get my tubes tied.
Well, the doctor's committee at Suburban Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland voted against this ON THE BASIS that my husband only had one blood child and he might decide later that he wanted more children. EVEN THOUGH David swore to them that he would NOT want any more children, thank you very much, and would sign off happily on my tube tying.
You see, the paternalistic attitude is there, and I swear it crowds out the fears of being sued later. I mean, the signature of a college graduate should preclude any later saying he did not know what he was doing!
But they would have none of it. They WOULD NOT tie my tubes, and I could not afford to shop around.
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I know someone who had all the arrangements made in her local hospital to tie her tubes when her fourth child was born.She went into labor a month early, had the baby in a differen hospital and they would not tie her tubes. Sigh.
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I had my tubes tied after our fourth baby (5th pregnancy). John had to sign consent forms. I was only 25, which was considered too young, except that I had had 5 pregnancies. I'm sure that the fact that obstetrician was a dear family friend had something to do with his agreeing to do it. After Jean was born, the 4th girl, he also asked both of us if we still wanted to do this, or if we wanted to continue to try for a boy. Different times.
Later on, when we had our first wills written, before signing, the attorney sent John out of the room and asked me if I was sure this was the way I wanted it written. When I said "yes", John came back in, and we signed. We always thought it was funny that they didn't do the same thing for John - i.e., made no provision for a hen-pecked husband. :D
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Had to do the same thing when closing on buying a house - the husband left while the wife was very seriously had to raise her hand in front of a notary while being asked if this is what she wanted.
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I suppose the reasoning came from the situations I've heard of where the husband dies and the wife finds out they are -- and now she--- is deeply in debt, the house is mortgaged with first and second mortgages to the hilt and the investments are all gone. Turns out he had her signing papers she hadn't bothered to read...he "took care" of all their finances. She found at 64 or so, she didn't have a dime or a place to live.
Sad.
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If you get your hands on the July 22, 2013 issue of THE NEW YORKER, be sure to read the article titled A RAISED HAND which starts on page 34 and is by Rachel Louise Snyder.
We must, we simply MUST, get more women judges and mayors and senators and congresswomen. We must.
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I have several friends who myhorror admitted they never even look at the income tax forms. just sign where their husband says sign.. Never ever ever sign anything you have not read. Whew..
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My husband used to sign the income tax forms I did without reading them, in spite of my protests.
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I think for many it is a matter of trust that is in question and if we look over the shoulder of one doing a task then that is inviting the other to look over our shoulder carrying out other tasks like grocery shopping or preparing the weeks food plan or how we mow or take care of the lawn or get involved in our work away from home and so we divide the work and trust each other.
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Good heavens, Anthony Weiner is at it again and his wife, who is supposed to be a smart political op.. She chimes in with forgiveness, etc. Hopefully New York City will pick a end to his political ambitions..
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It appears he has a sex addiction and tried to stop cold turkey without any therapy. Like the wife of the kind of alcoholic who continues to work, she does not know the signs and may even think she is at fault since many addicts blame sexual dissatisfaction with their partner as the cause of their addiction just as the drunk has all sorts of reasons and blames his boss and his wife.
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She talked of therapy, etc in the speech, but I still have problems with it.She was pregnant when he was first uncovered.. That alone would have made me seriously reconsider a marriage.
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Addicted people are very manipulative and have a way of saying with sincerity that is hard to doubt that the problem is under control and they love you - no different than someone who batters.
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I would think that she works for Hillary and has for years, that she would see what damage that sort of political life can do to you..The only time you see Bill and Hillary together is for their daughter or a political occasion.
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My guess is that he has lied like a trooper to her, and been manipulative as all get out. And she, being not long ago a happy bride and they having a small child, bought into his assurances and promises.
She was in love with him, and the promise of a beautiful life with him.
He has a severe sexual addiction. Obviously, quite a few men and some women have this whatever-it-is-called.
And, like craving alcohol or nicotine or food or whatever, he needs help to overcome this addiction. He is suffering a mental aberration.
One of my dearest friends has been sober for 35 years now. And she tells me that making sure she had some spare bottles hidden around the house was more important than having food in the house for her children. The craving is more than intense. It is EVERYTHING.
This particular man, like so very many others, Bill Clinton, yes, and JOHN KENNEDY, is very intelligent, charming and clever.
He should not be condemned so much as counseled until he learns to absolutely control his need to do such things.
And he can do a very good job of serving as an example of this illness to this nation. We, as a species, have a need to know.
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rah rah - he like the Catholic Church could have taken a huge problem and made it into a teaching experience showing a light at the end of the tunnel, while helping those of us who love them understand and become an appropriate support rather than without even realizing it we are often manipulated into being enablers. In that respect Hilary Clinton shows us a model - she did not run which is what most books and spokes people suggest however, she is seldom at his side as she carries on her own life while allowing their daughter the best of both of them as her parents.
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I do not think he should be Mayor however. The temptations would be overwhelming and yet another scandal would be on us.
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Steph
I agree. If his wife wants to stay with him that's fine but I think he's a real jerk. If he believes he has some sex appeal I don't see it. All i see is a big nose and a ugly face.
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Sincerely now, I think there is an elephant in the room and this nation is not allowing themselves to look at it.I do not think this is a MORAL question. I know, I know. For thousands upon thousands of years it has been addressed as a moral problem, and all during those innumerable generations the MEN have known better in their minds and averted their eyes just the same.
This is why preachers and priests are sex addicts.
This is why the military men cannot bring themselves to feel a speck of empathy for women.
They will not look at the elephant.
And the elephant is that there is a sex addiction gene in just a whole lot of men and some women. Women have been called nymphomaniacs when they possess this addiction. But men have been hiding any discussion of it other than in the ten commandments and so forth.
I think we need to LOOK at this elephant and call it what it is and recognize that it can be identified early on and treated through counseling and medication. We do not NEED to have our children raped and/or our women disrespected, raped and murdered. We can admit that the human species WAS NOT made in the image of god, but has a lot of flaws that can be sorted out and fixed through science, not religion.
I am not saying the addiction the priests have for little boys is the same as the nasty waving of penises to women in the social networks. I am saying it is all sex addiction with fantasy, but each a different spot on a spectrum. And we need to admit it is there and start identifying it and fixing it for the good of the whole society. And our children.
Muslim men have used women (as indeed have Christian men!) as the font of all blame for their sexual cravings. Women are at fault just being THERE, and must not show an inch of skin or a strand of hair, or it is all their fault what the men feel and do. You can be sure almost every man at a stoning of a woman for adultery has an erection and joyful climax. They don't like to do the same to a man, because they do not get the satisfaction. You see, they can identify with the man and think of themselves as being in that spot. But now, a WOMAN! What a lovely rush in the body to kill one of those!
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Interesting, MaryPage.. I think though that an addiction is a copout for what they want.. The rush from any sort of physical activity. So much of physical things are because they feel entitled. Is that an addiction or simply "the two year old",,, I want it, its mine syndrome.
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I think I feel the same as Steph. Everything is an addiction now. I think people no longer have limits. They believe they can do just about anything with no consequences. It seems to me these men behave that way because they feel they are entitled and no one will say anything. Nowadays, you can do just about anything while in office. People will be upset for a short while and then vote you back in. It’s sad.
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With all due respect, I think you are wrong. I believe, sincerely I do, our society is totally marinated in the black and white, right or wrong, this pole or that way of looking at things, a way, by the way, that has not succeeded in solving society's problems, that it is extremely difficult for us to pull ourselves away from and look at how brains are really wired. I am not even sure we WANT to pull ourselves away. I think it is kind of sort of icky to us to consider our deepest problems may well be all to do with the wiring of our brains.
But I think that is where our problems lie.
Yes, education is a big factor in bringing about a desirable civilization and a way of thinking that looks at the grey areas between the black and white, the mitigating factors between the right and wrong, the infinite variations between the poles. Yet our headline sexual deviants are highly educated! And religiously reared!
So we need to treat these things as coming from brains that need to be rewired to solve the myriad problems of those born with those particular brain wiring maps.
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If you watch the Charlie Rose series on the brain with each episode at least 5 scientists sitting around the table speaking about their study and research into the various parts of the brain (I am not good with the words used to describe the various areas of the brain and what they do) anyhow there is a part of the brain something the Caligula and the Hippocampus that control our emotions and the desire for more of what feels good.
It is not just making someone a victim by overpowering them for sex - in other words it is not just the sex it is the feel good of the sleuthing - keeping it a secret - it is also about power-over especially in children - think about it - there is no good sex with kids and there is no satisfying sex with someone you have terrorized - as to tweeter it is like phone sex that is less damaging to the chosen partner - but like all addiction it is hard to break. It starts because, like any habit, for a brief time you are not thinking, worrying, being reminded of what is painful in your life - you are simply performing and the result feels good.
It is like the drug addict or drunk who temporarily escapes however, this part of the brain comes into play and like all habits it automatically will not respond to the same impluse but requires more or greater acts - there are habits that do not hurt other people as well as, those that do. Yes, in a way these obsessions are selfish because they do protect the addict from painful memories long buried but still there. That pull is greater than can be fixed like using a patch to stop smoking.
That is why anyone who knows AA or Al-anon learned that as damaging as the obsession seems like sex, gambling, drinking, drugging, it is not just breaking the habit - going cold turkey by those who stop their obsession without therapy - it is stopping all the behavior around the obsession. That is why so many who know are laughing at the California Mayor who is assuming a two week clinic is going to cure him. All the damaging behavior must be explored, understood, and alternatives adapted or we have, as they call it, a Dry Drunk or a Dry ____ fill in your word for what is the obsession.
Sex without consent has a power-over component where you are in control and like a spy you secretly go after the prey that will be easiest to manipulate or over-power. As to online or phone sex there is as much power in titillating another as there is being titillated yourself.
Only yesterday watched the old movie the Thomas Crown Affair - a very wealthy man who was addicted to outwitting and robbing banks with a choreographed smart system - he was addicted to matching his wits against the best and proving their protection system had holes. Last week saw the old movie The Collector. The protagonist collects thousands of butterflies and goes on to collect women. A young women he hold prisoner dies and he satisfies the loss without his conquest because of her superior social position - then, he goes after a nurse who ministered to him in the hospital for an injury.
These movies were made before we knew so much about the brain and before the knowledge gained by 60, 70 and now just under 80 years of attempting to heal addictive behavior so that we saw Thomas Crown as charming and sexy where as, the Collector was considered in the movie psychotic. Now we know that an addiction is a mental state that requires greater and greater stimulation and if an addiction is stopped cold turkey it pops up as another addiction or as another version of the first.
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I'm not saying that people don't have addictions. I just think that has become an easy excuse for some to use.
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Could be and then that is part of an addiction - to cry that you are the victim - you are doing what you are doing because someone's behavior "Made" you do it - like the old saying the Devil made me do it. Like all addiction the shame of doing it is one thing but the inability to take responsibility for the damage it is causing yourself as well as others is getting to the core. So that yes, you are so right, anyone saying they are addicted to escape humiliation is not facing their inner pain that started the addiction in the first place.
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Scientists have already shown a lot of additive behavior is genetic. From my very own personal experience, I have seen alcoholism rage right through 4 generations in a family. Heartbreaking.
And we are a country full of people addicted to sweets and fast food. Look at any photo of Americans walking down a sidewalk anywhere, and you will see the dangerously obese all over the place.
They can't stop themselves. They are stuffing their mouths at all hours of the day and guzzling down soda pop instead of water.
Yes, the very first thing addicts will do is defend their behavior as something they have to do. They have to. Have to.
It is definitely a symptom of the disease.
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I would assume I am old and cranky, but discipline is lacking in the current world. I look around, read the papers, watch the news and wonder why these people riot... lie.. steal... and then say,"Oh I am sorry, it was an addiction" Poppycock
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I would assume I am old and cranky, but discipline is lacking in the current world. I look around, read the papers, watch the news and wonder why these people riot... lie.. steal... and then say,"Oh I am sorry, it was an addiction" Poppycock
I think I'm old and cranky too! Addictions can go so far, then I still think so many use that as an excuse. Discipline and limits are surely lacking.
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Yes, AA and Al-anon make a big issue of that and it is called Denial so that it is made into a play on words and called De-Nile - De as in The
It is very difficult to come to terms with an obsessions - sometimes it takes a group of family members and friends to confront how the behavior of the obsession is hurting each one in the room - the best interventions are set up so the person is immediately setup for a treatment center however, not everyone can afford a center and so a few from a local AA group are there to bring the person to a meeting and stay on top of them with visits, phone calls, folks showing up to take them to a meeting.
Again, it is humiliating to acknowledge how your obsession is affecting others and it is not your personal secret and then if the obsession is bad enough that it is known by friends and family never mind the public it is still argued away as not being all that bad.
It is all about protecting the obsession as if it was one of our young children. If you are over weight or do not walk every day or put things off - all small obsessions you know how hard it is to eat so you have no excess weight or how hard it is to get those tennies on and take a daily walk or go to the gym or get something you know should be done when the day is so busy or we are uncomfortable doing the job or any of many reasons have us put it off.
That is just mild and with a weightwatcher program or buckling down to a diet - meeting a group of friends for a morning walk takes care of getting back into the healthy habits - an addict may even join friends but secretly swear they are following the plan but instead, take one bite and then another or nap most of the afternoon because they are so tired after the short walk etc. etc.
For an addict promises are made like the wind blowing - not even like the rain falling that will in time fill up a lake. Promises are simply a sinkhole that trips up anyone who believes them.
We have been so indoctrinated in the eighteen and nineteenth century concept of bucking up to a moral code that our belief system over-rides what we have not experienced or seen first hand up close - it takes years of learning for those of us who have seen this up front - because we do want to understand what seems incomprehensible - some of the damage is so severe that it takes years and years to get to forgiveness and we too fight with the concept that calling it a disease feels like a cop-out - no one wants to accept that within the brain there is something that could make any of us obsess -
When someone is sick we feel like it is beyond their control and yet, the pain of their actions within this so called sickness as we would argue is too reprehensible. We no longer blame people, like they did in the early middle ages for their sickness and so we have an inner war with out feelings. OH we know when someone is bad it is not them we hate but their actions but now you are saying the actions are as a result of a disease?
Believe me it takes years and years to get past that threshold - i took me over 25years - and so I know how incomprehensible this explanation of a disease sounds. When I finally could come to terms with an appropriate emotional response the last 5 years or so have been more lost without the intense studying and learning and meetings and conferences I attended to try and wrap my head around what happened - the fall out still affects our family even now, that he is finally dead. And so I can only guess at how the average person would want to say addictive behavior is an excuse for a lack of morals -
However, until we do realize as a society this is not something that an addicted person can simply go to church and make a confession and join a group - and if they do not then they lack moral fiber - we will continue to have these atom bombs destroy family after family and affect kids who then grow up to repeat what they could not get a grip on. Once these addictions are taken seriously with public belief that worthy are the serious attempts to cure just as we do most serious diseases, we will have kids failing in school and jails fill up and smut behavior as the norm among the young who are hurt and angry and yes, even the abortions that do not seem to be putting a mother in physical danger.
The outcome of Girls sexually abused as their norm are being trained as children to associate love, affection, acknowledgement of their worth as a sexual act and as an adult have no idea what is healthy sex. They are easily manipulated into an action that leaves them pregnant.
As long as we attempt to punish addicts or see their excuses as weak morals and a weak will we will never solve the problem - to learn and understand and demand a public health response rather than sending addicts to jail as if that will cure them. Again, it is more than the addiction it is the behavior that must be understood by the addict and then changed.
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Since we're worried about the upcoming generations, I want to brag on our "baby" granddaughter, Sarah. She sent us this link today. Click here. (http://www.law.miami.edu/news/2013/july/2602.php)
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Wow...I know you're so proud of her, and you should be!
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Fabulous MaryZ not only is your granddaughter a powerful achiever and a beautiful woman but fabulous is the concept she is embracing of mental health available within non-profits. So glad you posted this one step towards hope for the understanding and behavior changes needed to affect change among the addicted and those who were caught in their debris.
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Another link - this time from a friend (retired family physician) who posted it on her fb page - things a father should tell his daughter about sex. Click here. (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2013/07/daughter_purity_movement.php)
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Great article, Mary! I've not heard of the "purity" movement.
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I had heard of the purity movement, but did not ever hear about the ring and that nonsense.. Religion has a lot to answer for.
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That was excellent, Mary! Excellent.
And congratulations on your granddaughter's achievements. One of my granddaughters is a lawyer, as well. She has her own practice here, doing real estate law.
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About the addictions thing, since we started talking about it I seem to be running into it everywhere I go. For instance, the August issue of National Geographic contains mind boggling stuff about the human race's addiction to sugar, and the consequences of that on our health as a species. I had no idea sugar originated in New Guinea or that it really did not get going until 500 A.D. and later. Or that it was the Arabs who had most to do with its dissemination. Candy is an Arabic word! Fascinating.
And the July 22 issue of The New Yorker has a long and scary article about men's addiction to abusing and murdering their wives. And another article about how many billions of dollars ALL of us taxpayers (well mind, I don't pay even one billion in taxes) pay to keep people enjoying their addiction to ocean views and beaches. You get the feeling that as a practical matter we should get the hell off those barrier islands, and that we won't. We just won't.
And there was an eye opening article about how some men have been addicted to collecting bird's eggs as a hobby. Just to own. Just to collect. Not to make money (some do, most don't), but just to satisfy a craving; an obsession. It is now against the law in most places, but they do it anyway. Some have spent years in jail, only to get out and start collecting again.
Whatever form the addiction takes, the genes to have one or more addictions are there. In our bodies.
And if it were all about morals and self-discipline, we would not have so many priests with the urge to be pedophiles.
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Acording to some studies I have read, the addictive personality takes many forms and often if cured of a dangerous ( i.e. Drug addiction) addiction will then take up another form. Some work done on alcoholics who take up smoking which isnt much better. I also know twowoman who are gym rats. They go every singl day, takes classes and simply stay all day.. Another form of addiction.Our reading habits can rank as a minor addiction.
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Steph I think the difference is when an addiction hurts family members - like when the addiction is so great we hide behind what feels good and we do not give time and attention to our loved ones or we end up not making any future plans with the family or the family cannot depend on us to show up for planned events because we need to satisfy our addiction.
Example - 'go away I am reading' - 'yes, hon I will do it after I finish this chapter' only they start another chapter and still have to called to the table or to do the task - or if the family is at the beach the reader is buried behind books under the beach umbrella while the family plays in the surf. Or later when the family is grown the addict won't leave the house except to shop and they would avoid that if they could in order to read. If the dog whimpers to go out they can hardly take their eyes off the page to simply open the door and let the dog out. Their outings always include a stop at the library or book store along with several deliveries a week from Amazon or B&N or the like that the UPS delivery person knows them by name.
Usually the addiction is first on the budget regardless of other bills. Some addicts are compulsive keeping track of every penny including what and how others in the family spend every penny while others let the bills pile up and bounce checks on a regular basis. The extremes are the norm so kids growing up in a home where the addiction takes over have no idea what is normal.
Those are just some of the characteristics of an addict - replace reading with drinking or drugging and you can see it is not just the drinking or drugging till someone cannot function or is passed out
it is all these other typical behaviors that affect the family - the behaviors grow little by little, like the addiction requiring more and more so that like heating a turtle or lobster in a pot it happens so gradually that the family is affected and thinks they are being unreasonable and something is wrong with them.
There are books and books for children of Alcoholics including the grandchildren of alcoholics since they were raised by parents or a parent who had no idea what was normal - it takes years of work to break through - it is not like coloring your hair - the change means coming to terms with your behavior - feeling the loss of what you knew - being angry that this is work that you did not cause - and finally taking on the work of making the change that as the addict slips if the change all it takes is an unexpected event and the child of an addict slips back to the behavior that is unhealthy and will cause them harm.
The same principles and damaging behavior now understood for Children of Alcoholics are the same for an adult child of any addiction - the meetings for Adult Children of Alcoholics are similar to Al-anon meetings and a variety of, 'damaging to the family addictions' are included since the outcome is similar for family members of any addiction.
Every few months during a meeting someone comes up with how to handle allowing their addicted parent to either baby sit or drive their grandchild when there is no trust they will be nipping on a bottle or drugging or stopping to gamble or whatever regardless their grandchild is with them. However, if the grandparent is reading to the child or taking the child to the gym there is no panic - what may be an addiction to them causing other harms they are not going to cause harm to a grandchild. Believe it or not that has to be sorted out in these meetings because again an Adult Child does not know what is normal. Also, their anger can get in the way although they want to be fair and the best parent.
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I admit that sometimes,but not often when the boys were teens , to using books to get away from normal life, so to speak.. but never for long.. I also had sons who swam and sailed competitively..Both spots allow lots of reading time..since you are waiting quite a long time.
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My granddaughter Jenny will be on a panel discussing autism at www.kcur.org at noon Eastern Daylight Time today.
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How proud you must be. I have not been near a tv until tonight and then not much..
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Yes, she was great. And the station got so much feed back, they want to do another show on the subject. They were totally surprised.
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MaryPage hope sings - how wonderful of your grandaughter and how wonderful of you to bring us this kind of good news.
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Thank your granddgt for her work on autism. My dgt has a friend who has 2 small girls w/ autism and my son has a friend who has a son w/ autism. Fortunately all were diagnosed early in their lives and their parents have the means for them to get a lot of help, so all are progressing. It seems to have just exploded in numbers in the last decade or so.
Jean
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My granddaughter Jenny, who lives in Kansas City, Missouri, has 4 children. The oldest and only girl is in her second year of a 5 year program at Kansas State University which will net her a masters degree in architecture and certification in that discipline. She is quite normal. Young Sam, (who is named for his grandfather who is married to my daughter Becky and is now called Old Sam,) is 12 and in the gifted program at his school. He is quite normal. Simon, who will be 9 at the end of this month, and Max who is 7½, are autistic. Jenny was blown away upon diagnosis and discovering insurance would not cover therapy which could bring them back from the place they were disappearing into. She has personally addressed the legislature in Jefferson City several times, and gone down there over and over again to lobby. They finally saw the light and now insurance in Missouri must cover treatment for autism. Jenny is now working on this nation wide, with concentration on Kansas and Oklahoma. She has quite a tale to tell, and she told it on this panel on this radio show. By the way, both little boys are savants. Simon has an IQ of 160 in mathematics and helps his big brother Sam with his homework. I swear!
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What are the theories for the rise in persons who have autism and especially in families. Is there a genetic component?
Jean
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They don't know. They just do not know. It most definitely IS NOT childhood shots. And yes, it IS genetic. That much has been found to be a definite truth.
I kind of sort of wonder if it is a new evolutionary phase our species is going through in order to get somewhere.
Speaking of which, I was fascinated to read somewhere recently that when we developed such large heads the offset was that it takes so much longer for our young to mature enough to be on their own!
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I know that my grandson ( 11) Connor is high performing Asbergers.. My son, his father had problems in elementary school and was diagnosed as ADD and took ritalin, Math was his problem and still is to this day. HIs Mother has alwasy had problems reversing words and letters, etc. Both of them graduated from college. Penni had a tutor the whole time. They both went to AMerican Internation College in western Ma. and the school has a special program for dyslexic indivduals.
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I was just making my bed and listening to Morning Joe on MSNBC and I heard Joe Scarborough say that he has a son with Asperger's. I do not believe I have ever heard that before.
By the way, when the Secretary of the Navy, Josephus Daniels, banned hard liquor from the galleys of the ships and put in coffee instead, the men began to call it Josephus, which was soon shortened to "Joe." What fun to have just learned that from a review of a new book out about that remarkable man.
I love, love, love hearing where words came from; albeit sometimes I think the writers are making it up. In this case, it sounds quite authentic.
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I love explanations of words, even if they sound a bit fanciful..
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If you like words, do you check out A Word A Day from Wordsmith? It's one of my daily site-checks.
http://wordsmith.org/words/
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What I think is fun is I subscribe to ThinkMap which is a visual Thesaurus - the one where the word in the center has lines radiating showing alternative synonyms that include the exact meaning in a side bar - well they have a daily email system that brings a word and its history and usually includes other words that are a take off or the original word that it came from and how it was historically used. I think the annual fee is only $19.
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I seem to have way too many something every day on my computer.. Am trying to prune it down.
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Another fun word site is "alphadictionary" run by a linguist from Bucknell Univ. he does have a daily newsletter of a word and its derivation, but he also has a lt of other things going on on the website that are fun.
http://www.alphadictionary.com/index.shtml
Jean
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Oh shoot try to use that one in a sentence - the best I can come up with using today's news is - The GOP in Maryland are in high dudgeon with their Congressional Representative over National Security Agency surveillance.
Its been awhile since I have felt such intense indignation and if I do still not sure how to relay that using dudgeon.
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We just started the Great Courses course on the History of the English Language. It's looking like it's going to be a good one.
I've always loved the idea of being in high dudgeon!
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:D
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According to my dictionary, one in "high dudgeon" might want to use a "dudgeon" (<obsolete>noun meaning a dagger having a handle of a certain wood ;)
If one is only annoyed, is one in "dudgeon"? ???
If one couldn't care one way or the other, is one is "low dudgeon"? ???
The mind boggles. :D
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;D. ;D
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8) :) ;)
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Wonderful article about Planned Parenthood in the August 5th issue of THE NEW YORKER. It starts on page 24 and is titled Letter From Austin DAUGHTERS OF TEXAS, the fight for abortion and is by Jeffrey Toobin. Really, really good. Wish I had pots of money! I would give ten million each to Texas PP, Virginia PP and North Carolina PP so they could build new clinics.
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The silliness of the local medical societies and the local hospital boards is astounding.They know darned good and well that doctors who perform abortions are good doctors , but they are terrified to give them admitting privileges.. Stupid stupid politics.
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Part of that is not the doctors but who owns the hospital - the most innocuous often have financial support among their private stockholders with strong anti-abortion sentiment. Here most most of the hospitals in Austin and the nearby towns are owned by Seton, the Sisters of Charity - even our so called city hospital was sold to Seton some years ago - those facilities not owned by Seton are owned by St. David's which is Episcopal - not as severe but still not public. I think there is only one hospital in South Austin that is not owned by either group but I do not know the backers because it is not a place where abortions take place.
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Yes, in central Florida now two corporations own all of the hospitals.. One is 7th Day Adventist.. and other I believe is non profit secular, but that is the one that pays their highest people at a rate that large corporations envy. Stupid for any non profit, but thats what they love.
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Everything is all lined up and going great for the new national health program here in Maryland. The State has lined up all the various health groups and the exchange shows all the premium costs and the SAVINGS for every group are just huge. It is all working out here in Maryland just as the bill promised.
The great pity is that those states who are being balky and refusing to organize for it are only hurting the citizens of those states badly in their pocketbooks and in the scope of their coverage. Such a shameful thing that a few hate filled politicians can cause so much pain to so many.
I left a forum in Seniors & Friends recently because a guy in there posted an anti-Obama joke that was so disgusting and so racist and so disrespecting of our president that it took my breath away. No matter WHO is in the White House, that person IS the president of MY country, and I will not disrespect him or (Oh, I hope!) her!
http://marylandhbe.com/
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Glad to hear how well things are going in Maryland, sounds promising, thanks for some optimism ......... And then there is the sad fact of the racism and obstruction of Obama's administration. I think Donald Trump's birther campaign is the most obnoxious of indidviduals' response. He knows better and he does it only to be self-serving, keeping him in the news, a total egotist who is destructive to his country.
Here in NJ we are having a special primary election to fill Sen Lautenberg's seat. For some reason our "financially conservative Gov Christie" thought there was a need to have a "special election" two months before the regular election, costing us millions of unnecessarially spent dollars. The most pleasant thing about this primary election is that there are four very good Democrats running. I feel i would "win" w/ any one of them. Altho, Congressman Rush Holt, the guy who beat the computer on Jeopardy, is the most progressive of them all and gets my vote.
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Christie, a Republican, spent twelve million dollars of the taxpayer's money to hold the special election only 3 weeks prior to the regular election because HIS NAME is on the ballot in November and he does not want his vote diminished by the voters who turn out for the very popular Cory Booker, a Democrat, who is running for that Senate vacancy.
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Sigh. Florida is not participating. The idiot that got elected governor has no intention of doing that. Even the legislature triedto at least join in, but he vetoed it..What a mess for the younger citizens.
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Was listening to Rachel Maddow tonight. In North Carolina they are changing the election rules at the local level. In one voting area they have combined three voting areas into one for a voting population of 9600 folks. Wonder how long it will take to vote? Have 35 parking spaces at the poll. Guess who comprises the voting population??
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I saw and heard that, too. Surely the Justice Department will be all over it. And the N.A.A.C.P. as well and all.
Still, the BLATANTCY of it simply staggers my mind. How in the world, especially in this day of instant know-all & see-all, the plotting Republican strategists maintain even so much as an instant of believing they can actually manipulate the election laws to eliminate thousands of citizens from exercising their franchise is beyond my ability to absorb and contemplate. Once upon the day, they could have gotten away with these demonic plots; but in 2013? No way.
But just imagine the mind set of these human beings who even WANT to do these things!
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Since I am in North Carolin for the summer, have been paying attention to the legislature. The entire government turned republica in the last election and they seem to be playing payback n a huge irresponsible way. It made me really understand that I will not live here all year long. The changes in voting rules, taxing, etc is amazing. They also are punishing Asheville since it is the one larger city in North Carolina that is democratic.. They have also changed the abortion laws to correspond with Texas.. Just more quietly
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The big question is this: are the newspapers and radio and television news reporting telling the citizens of North Carolina the full story of what is going on?
I know how prejudiced and old school set in their ways many North Carolinians are. They were raised that way.
But they are also, for the most part, good people. The heart and soul of what America is. And they believe in fair play and decent treatment of other folks.
So if they Know what is being done, I flat out have to believe they won't stand for it.
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The Washington Post has a smallish story about this in this morning's paper. And one thing above all the other outrageous stuff blows my mind: all polls are to close immediately at the posted closing time. If voters are still waiting in line, too bad. They cannot vote!
I have been an election judge many many times here in Maryland, and I know the Virginia habits as well.
It has always been that the last person in line at closing time is given a card, and no one else can join the line behind that person. But everyone there prior to closing gets to vote, if the workers have to stay there half the night!
If you show up on time to vote in this country, you get to vote.
BUT NORTH CAROLINA WANTS TO CHANGE THAT!
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I also saw yesterday that the Gov of NC signed a piece of legislation for education "reform". One of the reforms is to remove the additional $5000 teachers are paid who earn a master's degree! Heck, why should educators not be highly educated!?! Nice lesson to public school students. I think the aliens have definitely tainted the water in NC. :)
I have a dear friend who grew up in NC through the fifties and sixties and as we talk about civil rights history she exclaims "I never heard about that!" The major newspapers and tv stations did not report on any sit-ins or boycotts, or protests, or marches, some if which were IN NC.
Jean
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Both of my teacher daughters have masters degrees, and they obtained them at their own expense of time and cash. I would be furious if it were their states (Maryland and Missouri) that did that. My teacher granddaughter has a Ph.D.
It all just seems so surreal. I was a Republican all of my life until 1980 when abortion was put in the platform. The friends and acquaintances I worked with in the party all those many years told me not to take it seriously, that it was just put in there to placate the emerging Religious Right and that Reagan himself was Pro-Choice. But I bolted; it was a bridge too far for me. And I was right to do so. It has all been downhill from there, and I keep pinching myself over the extent to which that once great party, the Party of Lincoln, for crying out loud, has followed a downward spiral into excess and insanity.
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yes, several of us bolted with Reagan the actor as a puppet president - we are often caught because the Dems are often about Big City issues and an attitude of big brother taking care of all the needs of society where as we still have the attitude of Compassion emanating from local, mostly church groups that are becoming less the center of a community as compared to before Reagan. I sure wish global warming had not been made into a political issue.
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Apparently the anti global warming comes from the same pulpits that say we have only been here for six thousand years and we walked the earth with the dinosaurs and god sends all the storms and tornadoes and lightening strikes and those who die were meant to and god has personally reached out and saved those who escape death and so on and on. Religion guarantees, if we show up and tithe properly, we can all relax into the certainty that the big daddy god "up there" has a plan for us and "his" plan will unfold no matter what we do, so we'd better just worship him (no room for the question of she) and get on with our grownup lives and listen to god's voice and wishes and commands through his anointed here on Earth. And women have no value other than their wombs and their recipes, and even what they come up with in the kitchen is nowhere near as holy as what comes from the grills the men deign to lord it over.
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I am here in North Carolina in the summer. Up in the mountains, the Asheville paper tries to report, but the small town, Franklin and the Macon County press only have praise, This is a very thiny disguised attack on Blacks, Spanish, young people, any one they perceive as voting democratic I do hope that the court will block this.. Makes me know I dont want to live here full time. It is beautiful, but oh so conservative in the mountains.. They long for it to be 1950 again.Sad but true.
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The "Purify-the-voting-process" people just made up the story that there is huge voter fraud and refuse to say "oh, o.k." when the statistics show it is .006 % in present day voting. That is not to say that in the past, in local districts, there has been no voter fraud - LBJ got into congress thru voter fraud and Chicago and Jersey City and NYC have had episodes of epidemics of fraud, but that has diminished significantly. One women on a show a few days ago said there were hundreds names of dead people on NC's lists. The " expert" informed her that yes, she was right there were names of people who had died whose names had not yet been removed, but no one was using the names to vote. She said "well, they could!" TUMH - (throwing up my hands)........... As one of you said on another site REALLY??? ;D
Sticking to their irrational conclusions strongly suggests THEY are attempting to control the vote.
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Always scenting conspiracies and being certain there are droves of people getting away with all sorts and kinds of cheating is a form of paranoia, and these folks just do not see that. It is like a mantra to them: everyone ELSE is trying to get away with something.
What on earth do they think it would profit any one human being to travel from precinct to precinct to vote all day long? And how many do they think can find the time to do this on election day? And who do they think pays them for this?
When I was working as an election judge, I assure you no one came twice through those polls and every single voter was checked and rechecked. Shoot, we already knew most of them!
Back in the day, when I was a Republican, men from headquarters used to go down to Lincoln Park, our "colored neighborhood" back in segregation days, and stand on the corners and hand out two or three bucks, whatever it took back then to buy a pint of liquor, to all the blacks they could drive to the polls and get to vote. Blacks voted for Mr. Lincoln's party back then. I always thought of it as an incentive to get them to vote, and not as cheating. Never in all my days in politics did I ever run into or even sense any real cheating.
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I have worked in many polling areas and like MaryPage never got the feeling that anyone was cheating.They all seem sincere when they come in to vote..
When my husband died, I was changing everything to my name, house, cars, etc, I was in the county building to change my homestead and the voting office was in the same area. When I stopped, the lady told me they had already taken him off the rolls.. Someone checks obits.. Interesting..
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In my county they always took great care to delete the dead. All the records show this; you can go back for over 60 years that I know about of my own experience.
Some people spout off about stuff they know nothing about. It can be something absolutely horrific, such as religions that sacrifice living babies on their altars (and yes, I heard that one A LOT as a child!) to places that vote thousands and thousands of the dead. There is no extreme that people will not allow their credulity to embrace!
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And then we wonder why it is sooo easy for folks to sell us an idea using fear as the cause that requires change - if they can be paranoia over folks stealing a dead person's name to vote twice they are subject to any tall tale that feeds their impressionable unthinking mind.
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CSPAN's American Historytv broadcast a terrific program from the Kennedy Library about the March on Washington this afternoon. First there was a panel who were had 2 people who were part of the March and 2 scholars of the March and then John Lewis gave a magnificent keynote about the lead-up to the March and his controversial speech.
A very interesting backstory was about women and the March. There was one question from the adience for the panel, which they did not really answer. Then they had an intermission and CSPAN had call-ins and at that point and after john Lewis' speech, many people mentioned how important the women were, and JL mentioned the importance of women in his speech. You may not remember that NO woman spoke at the Lincoln Memorial - Miriam Anderson sang and there has been a rumor that she said to MLK when he finished his prepared remarks, " tell them about the dream, Martin." No woman speaking has been an item of contention about the March ever since. All those ministers hadn't considered that when they were planning it.
They are repeating the show at 10:00 tonight and will be having shows about the March every night this week at 8:00. You may be able to get it ondemand and i know you can get it on their website.
My husband and his sister were at the March in '63.
Jean
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Did you see the piece on CBS Sunday morning today about the man who wound up with MLK's copy of his speech?
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No Mary, i missed that, can you elaborate?
I made a mistake above, it was Mahalia Jackson who may have said to MLK "tell them your dream, Martin," not MA.
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I saw the segment on Sunday Morning on CBS yesterday about the man who owns the original typed out speech. It had nothing in it with the words "I have a dream." Apparently he ad libbed that.
I was pregnant with my last child and afraid to venture down in the huge crowds expected. We were living in Rockville, Maryland at the time. Several of our friends went, the ones we at the time called the two marshas, but they were actually Marcia and Marsha and were sisters-in-law, and Bill and Harvey. Those four went, but David stayed home with me. The four came back to our home to rehash it all later before returning to their own homes.
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Women were never that prominent in the NAACP stuff.. Black ministers are not into equal as far as I can see.
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Jean, Click here (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57596990/guardian-of-history-mlks-i-have-a-dream-speech-lives-on/) to hear the interview from CBS Sunday Morning.
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I was living in Delaware that year and was pregnant with my second son. My memories were more of Kennedy than ML King. He was not a favorite of mine, I preferred Vernon Jordan, and a few others from Atlanta..
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My son, and my last child, was born on March 16, 1964. When was yours born, Steph? We were both pregnant 50 years ago. I remember I was reading everything J.D. Salinger wrote and The Feminine Mystique and Ian Fleming's James Bonds and a lot of good stuff.
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ah yes, Salinger - read just about everything he wrote - my time with Salinger was the very early 50s - For years I had a Zooey Door - I am remembering Peyton Place rocking the conversations and books by Thomas B. Costain still gave us an adventure through history - remember joining a book club and receiving the Tontine as two volumes and could hardly contain myself from one month to the second. I also remember women's magazines including not only full length novels but a series of a well known book. One that I looked forward to every month is either the Ladies Home Journal or maybe it was the Woman's Companion was the full romantic story of Tristan and Iseult
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Thanks for the link Mary.
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I loved The Tontine. And I read all of Salinger in the Sixties. In the Fifties I read Ladies Home Journal and Good Housekeeping without fail. Most of the Salinger I read in the Sixties was in The New Yorker. I remember reading Tristan & Isolde, but do not remember how or where, just the what. Oh, how I hated that King Mark!
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Looks like we read some of the same books MaryPage - just our timing was different - in the 60s I was already using most of my spare time first as a leader and later a trainer for the Girl Scouts where as in the 50s I graduated, worked a bit, married and had my babies - when they napped I read.
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Thinking today of the magazine "Seventeen." Always waited for the fall issue with the beautiful clothes for school. What a difference a few decades makes!
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My younger son was born 6 January 1964.. I remember the assassination and the grief. Going to church on Sunday and coming home to my husband saying they killed the assassin.. I was reading Costain ( oh how I loved The Tontine), Sinclair Lewis, Salinger.. Metalius.. and yes the wonderful ladies magazines with their wonderful stories.
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Wonderful, wonderful programs on the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington! Last night CNN had a great show talking to people who had organized and attended the March, not just the headliners. They followed it w/ a wonderful interview by Anderson Cooper of the woman who talked down the shooter in Georgia. ........ I was in tears all evening. :)
CSPAN is focusing on the March all weekend. It was so much more profoundly important then just a one day event. Previously marches and protests were looked on as subversive. People in the country got a new perspective of both protest marches and the Civil Rights Movement and all movements since have used the concept to educate and to rally their followers. Thank you to everyone who participated and made it one of the most historic and peaceful events in our history.
I'm learning new things about the March and about the lead up and the follow up. It was the first non-political event covered from beginning to end by television. The reporter from ABC whose name i have forgotten at the moment, but whose face you would recognize ........oh, yes, Roger Mudd ..... Was young and new and nervous - they were so afraid of violence erupting, the Am Nazi Party was picketing close by - threw up in the bushes beside the Lincoln Memorial before he went on camera. That's interesting to know for many reasons.....i think it is good for us, especially young people to recognize that everyone of us has had anxiety, even those big muckity-mucks who look like they've got it all together.....but when they showed the video of his anchoring that day he seems cool and collected - the show must go on.
As you can tell, the historian and humanitarian in me is thoroughly enjoying the day.
Jean
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The news from India remains awful.. Another rape.. This mornings paper had a picture of female photojournalist in Indian standing in a line with gags on their mouths. Obviously feeling that women are devalued in that area. Makes no sense with you remember Indira Gandhi, etc.
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Well, the religions of this world all make women rank below men in importance in every possible way.
And the men, of course, are most happy to buy into this as an absolute given.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I just find it strange, that a lot of these areas have had women as Prime Ministers and yet seem to devalue the ordinary woman.. Pinky Bhutto was certainly strong, but theykilled her and India has ad several women in the prime position. Sigh.
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But have you noticed that in almost every case, and certainly in the two you mention here, the women were part of a famous ruling family, and they inherited their spots by the death of a father or husband or uncle or brother? Check it out, as I am completely serious about this.
Bhutto's father had been Prime Minister of Pakistan before her, and Indira Ghandi's father had been Prime Minister of India before her.
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Marion McPartland, a jazz pianist and composer died at age 95 this week. For decades she hosted Piano Jazz on NPR interviewing and playing with dozens and dozens of musicians we all know. Here is her obit......
http://www.abqjournal.com/253104/news/ja-zzpianist-dies-at-95.html
NPR's tribute to Marion, click on the arrow to hear it
http://www.npr.org/2013/08/21/214192430/twilight-world-remembering-marian-mcpartlands-songs
And here is a statement by Norah Jones, dgt of Ravi Shankar and one of my favorite young singers, who knew MM very well and alludes to how tough it must have been to be a woman instrumentalist in the jazz world during the 20th century. Toward the bottom of the article there is a link to the Piano Jazz show that Norah and Marian did together.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/arts/music/norah-jones-remembers-the-radio-host-marian-mcpartland.html?_r=0
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Am a jazz enthusiast and am playing one of her CDs now -- "85 Candles" in celebration of her 85th birthday.
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I actually saw Marion McP... many many years ago and loved her..
Yes, the two ladies were both members of ruling families, but there were males in that generation and they picked the women instead.. in the countries they lived in, that was odd..
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My family have promised to put on a New Orleans type Jazz funeral for me. It will be, by my choice, the only funeral at all. I have donated my body to a medical school nearby.
The funeral will be all up and down Oak Bluff Drive in Montgomery Village, Maryland. Woo hoo! Two of my granddaughters live on that street. Great granddaughter Leah, again by my designation, will be the parasol twirling leader. A grandson-in-law runs a music school which two of my great grandsons attend, so there will be a bunch playing instruments.
Lindy Boggs, she whose husband was a congressman from Louisiana, and then she was, too, after he died; and she is the mother of Cokie Roberts, died recently and New Orleans put on a BIG Jazz funeral for her immediately following the one in the Roman Catholic cathedral there.
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Sounds wonderful MaryPage.. I will be sure and come , if you dont outlive me, that is.
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I am sure to be wrong but I thought if bodies donated to science they were taken right away. Some parts being used. If whole body donated did not have to have permission to use like when just donating a certain part. Noticed there have been 3 in our local paper lately (One a public figure). The death was listed next day. and stated that the body had been donated. but was no visitation. memorial or anything within the next 5 days. One did get a memorial last week. I believe also one was a Indian lady connected to the university.
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Jeanne...the fact that a person chooses not to have a memorial or a visitation or whatever may have nothing to do with a medical body donation.
I know that some universities have a memorial service themselves once a year for those who have donated their bodies.
I would think the family could still have a memorial service or a celebration of the person's life, without a body, as people do when cremated. I don't believe it's necessary to have either a body or the ashes to do that.
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the body must be packed in ice and shipped immediately - some have a Mass as usual only no coffin in the center aisle - some have a wake at the home of the deceased or close relative and then some follow up with another service if and when there are any ashes - my best friend's husband's body was donated for body parts and the remaining cremated - they had a Mass within days with a history of photos as part of the Mass and then when the Charlotte received the ashes she had made arrangements and the family accompanied her to Arlington where his ashes are entombed in a wall with the usual ceremony for an officer that includes horses and taps played from a distance.
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I carry a card in my purse with me at all times, and each of my children has a copy. On it is the phone number to call the medical school 24 hours a day. They have already accepted my body; I did this back in 1984. They will come IMMEDIATELY and pick up my body, and it belongs to them from then on. I will be a student's body in Anatomy Class.
My beloved stepmother gave her body to the same school, and we had a memorial service for her in the Lutheran Church her whole family attended back home in Virginia. You do not need a body for a memorial service.
I choose not to have a religious ceremony because I do not believe in life after death. That is my personal choice. I also strongly feel giving my body to useful science is the last gesture I can make to benefit the progress of my species.
I really wanted nothing other than my children all getting together and telling funny things about me while making piles of what is to be theirs of my belongings. Then at a family gathering we got to talking about various ways of commemorating the dead, and we were also talking about music, and I admitted I crave a New Orleans type Jazz funeral. And it is true. I do.
THAT was when those blessed children and their spouses and grandchildren and theirs and the great grands promised me one. Great granddaughter Leah is to lead out with the parasol. She is a natural for the job and will give it her all. Leah will be ten in December.
They have all been studying the hundreds of videos of Jazz funerals you can watch on line.
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I was just wondering if it could be like Mary was saying she wanted to be done on posting 1972
I have seen those street with jazz type funerals in both NO and SFCisco. The Chinese ones very moving. But the caskets and bodies are there. Usually someone holding a big photo in front. Just did not think if body donated they would wait that long. Just my thought.
How did we get into such a subject.?
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One have just one more to add. They do say that the medical schools have or can get all the bodies they need. Using those found that have been living on the streets and not claimed. We may think that illegal but worse things are done.
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There will be no body at my jazz funeral. Just a joyful, boisterous celebration. Wish I could see it!
I kind of sort of doubt that, Jeanne; while admitting I have no idea. But if you could see the long, detailed contract I signed, you would see that they reserve the right to refuse my body under a lot of conditions, including violent death, messed up in an automobile accident, too long a time before they are called to fetch me, too many surgeries and replacement of parts, and on and on. So far, I still qualify. If, when the day comes, I do not qualify any longer, my family will donate what parts can be useful and have me cremated. No burial. Scattered in a forest.
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I have a good friend who donated her body. After she died, they came and got her. After she was used, her remains were cremated and returned to the family, who then had the urn put in a niche in a columbarium..
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Yes, that is what Georgetown is now doing. For years and years, including the period (1983) when Mama died, they had the body cremated after it was no longer of use to the medical school, but because it was difficult after perhaps a period of a few years to get back in touch with the family, they buried the ashes in holy ground at Georgetown. Now they do return the ashes to the family. I took about two thirds of Bob's ashes to Cape Coral, Florida to be buried there in the Episcopal Church Memorial Garden with his first wife's ashes, as had been promised her. The one third I have in a very large and beautiful cloisonne urn next to my bed. When daughter Debi finally gets my ashes back (she has to keep her address current with the university until she does), she will mix them with his and take the urn up into the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. We never got Mama's ashes back, but that had been understood at the time. I know approximately where they are.
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I love the idea of the return..Like a gift that you get back.
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WELL! WELL! WELL! I just skimmed thru all the postings in this category looking for a piece of information. What a marvelous conversation you all have made here. We have covered many issues, had many diverse opinions - civilly, i think, w/ out angering anybody. It has been thoughtful, intelligent, humorous, informative. I do wonder what happened to "Pamela" who joined us for a brief time around March.
Thank you all so much for such a good time that costs nothing and has no calories! ;)
Jean
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Just saw this on my history calendar
Sept. 1, 1963
Liz Taylor inks a $1 million contract to play the title role in the 20th Century Fox film Cleopatra. The movie, released almost four years later, grossed nearly $26 million in the U.S., tops in 1963. But it still lost money due to its hefty production cost—$44 million, making it the most expensive film to date.
There was nothing about Liz that was inexpensive, was there? But good for her, i think she was the first woman to be paid $1million for a role and she certainly seemed to be her own person and do as she pleased. ("to be her own person", isn't that an interesting phrase? )
Also i heard Ross Perot gave $1 million to Planned Parenthood. Isn't that interesting?
Jean
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Good on him! I think this must be the first time, or at least close to the first time, I have ever applauded him. If I won the Lottery big, I would give Planned Parenthood a hundred million.
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Amazing,I never thought of Ross as interested in helping women.. A different side of him indeed.
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Like so many figures, the media defines for us folks on the national and international scene based on their decisions who is going to wear the white hat and who is going to wear the black hat, so they can have their story that only sells when the tensions between people and issues are magnified.
Also, more and more I am seeing east coast reporters not understanding middle America - they write from their sensibilities as well as from the political viewpoint of the editor and owners of the paper, magazine, TV station and then social media picks it up thinking they are original when all they really do is short-cut what they had heard in the news. Until several bios are written all we have is the news and film clips that are meant to influence rather than, as Friday used to say, Tell it like it is.
Perot is brash and like many in this area filled with pride - unfortunately reporters mixed up as Jane Austin puts it, Vanity with Pride - Not from an area where self-pride and pride being one of the words children look to hear from their parents and where pride in where they live, what they do is valued therefore, the media assigned all manner of intent and attitudes on the man.
Jane Austin quote - “Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously… Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us.”
Today being politically correct we call pride, self-esteem. We like to see national figures appearing humble and yet, if humble leads we are very upset. As liberal as I am I think Ross Perot would have been less of an embarrassment in office than Bill Clinton.
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One thing drives my heart to pulsating and gives me most unpleasant physical sensations that are frightening, and that is that the young women in entertainment industries today seem to think that it is perfectly okay for them to go along with being nearly naked and acting out all sorts of sexual behavior in public that demeans our sex and makes females appear just as so many men want them to appear: sexual OBJECTS and not human beings. I wish so much that some powerful woman or women would start speaking to them PUBLICLY and explain in simple language what they are doing to themselves and to all the rest of those of their gender, INCLUDING their very own sisters and daughters.
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The second person in People of the Century is Emmeline Pankhurst. I thought you might like some of the quotes from the chapter written by Marina Warner, a British writer.
Women were battered in demonstrations and, on hunger strikes, brutally force-fed in prison. When these measures risked taking lives, the famous Cat and Mouse Act was passed ...a dangerously weakened hunger striker would be released and the rearrested when strong enough to continue her sentence......Mrs Pankhurst, age 54 in 1912, went to prison 12 times that year. No wonder she railed, "The militancy of men, through all the centuries, has drenched the word with blood. The militancy of women has harmed no human life save the lives of those who fought the battle of righteousness.
Don't you love victorian rhetoric?
While she was bent on sweeping away the limits of gender, she envisioned society transformed by feminine energies........She wrote, "We want to help women...We want to gain them all the rights and protection that the laws can give them. And, above all, we want the good influence of women to tell to its greatest extent in the social and moral questions of our time. But we cannot do that unless we have the vote and are recognized as citizens and voices to be listened to........we are here, not because we are lawbreakers; we are here in our efforts to become lawmakers." .........Joan of Arc was the suffragists' mascot. Boadicea their goddess, and Mrs Pankhurst the true inheritor of the armed maidens of heroic legend.
Alice Paul worked with the Pankhursts in 1909/10 and was also jailed and forced fed. She then, in 1910, brought that militancy back home and used those tactics of parades and demonstrations here in the U.S., also being arrested and forced fed, until the suffrage amendment was passed in 1920. She organized the first demonstrations ever held in front of the White House.
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The GOP War on Women is going strong, McConnel's spokesperson calls Lundergan Grimes "an empty dress."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/04/alison-lundergan-grimes-empty-dress_n_3865060.html#slide=1059001
Don't miss the slideshow - i know, i hate them too, why don't they just tell us what was said- on anti-women comments by the right AND the Sara Palin statement, both at the bottom of the article.
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Now I fear the fight is not between men and women even though we have recently seen a string of men in power who are ignorant to women's physical and emotional makeup - I see more damage being done women to women so that with a split house we keep losing.
To change the hearts and minds of women advisories will be a feat that i am not seeing anyone write about because it means taking on the patriarchy of major religions. One thing to say, ignore them but, if religion is a source of comfort than the drum beat of abusive ideas about a woman cannot be avoided.
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I agree Barbara, there is so much women bashing by ordinary people. I had this very arguement on Sunday at a family dinner table. Men and women saying "men are better friends with each other and more confidential!" REALLY! i see so many men as so competitive with each other they wouldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it. Can't have closeness if you're not telling the truth.
Of course, their response to me was "you always defend women." my response was "Yes, because women are so often attacked in ways i think are unfair." i actually believe, and constantly remark, we always need to say "some men" and "some women", rather then stereotype all and i believe that we are alike in many, many ways, having all human attributes.
I see that women getting the vote has not totally changed the world, (as Emmeline had hoped for) altho i think women who first come to office - at least in the U.S., can't forget Margaret Thatcher- tend to be more concerned about daily life issues and less idealogical then the men who have been in office. Is this bcs they are women, or bcs they are new to the institution, or haven't yet been bought, or recognize that their constituencies are people who expect them to bring change? There are a lot of potential varibles.
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It seems to me that the current crop of female legislaters are more into party politics than they used to be. I always have like the women who represented Maine.They are so independent of either party.
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Me too, and all, Steph. Remember Margaret Chase Smith!
A canary in the coal mine, as it were, as far as women taking on the Church is concerned, is the American nuns. In June, my daughter Debi gave a dinner party at her home to say goodbye to Sister Elise Mary, the very last nun to teach at St. Mary's School here in Annapolis. She retired and went to Baltimore and the Diocese is going to turn the convent to other uses. All the teachers are lay there now. So sad. But I tell you what: there is a WAR going on and the nuns are going to win it. Makes me happy to think on it!
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The nuns currently seem to be trying very hard to make allof those males understand that they are important too.
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"The First Ladies" is back on CSPAN2, Edith Roosevelt is spotlighted tonight 9:00
Jean
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I once read at least one book about all of the first ladies up to perhaps.. Eleanor Roosevelt, so it was a while ago. Not sure how I feel about tv watching them..
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http://www.thenation.com/article/175959/operation-rescue-vs-dr-ann-neuhaus-hero-provider#axzz2eaNZC3os
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/16/ann-kristin-neuhaus_n_3756876.html
Doctor Ann Neuhaus is an American heroine most Americans have never heard of. Women need to know!
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mark
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How ironic that you posted that just now MaryPage. I've just about finished Noah Gordon's Matters of Choice. The third in the "Dr Cole" series. On the surface it's very different then his two previous which had historical settings. This one is set in the 1990's. But he continues to give detailed personnal lives of the characters and a lot of interesting current events.
He writes the female protagonist very well. She's a lawyer/doctor who after a divorce decides to leave a Boston hospital and set up private practice in rural NY where docs are scarce. She's an amazing, almost Wonder-Woman character. But that's rather nice to read on occasion. She runs her practice, has a relationship, cuts a trail thru a woods behind her house despite her knowing there is a big black bear in the area, she builds a little bridge across the creek after she learns how to use a chain saw, works one day a week at a family planning center even though she is frightened each time she walks through the protesters and when she is followed home by a pick up truck with three guys in it.
He brings in many '90s events, besides the protests and battles against abortion, the problem of people not having health insurance and therefore health care, etc.
It's an easy read that flows nicely even though its jam-packed with detail, as he did in the previous two books in trilogy.
Jean
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I have read another series of his.. He does love to cram in the detail.
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Women inventors! Thank you all! :)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/16/things-invented-by-women_n_3744401.html
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Saw the darndest interview on Today just now.. Julie Chen on how when she wanted a start in TV, her first boss said to get her eyes changed.Granted it was biased and stupid, but she did it anyway.. But the before and after pictures does make you wonder. Not an attractive woman until she had some work done ( dont think it was just the eyes). I guess I am sort of torn. I honestly think the person was trying to explain to her what she needed to look like for TV..Biased or not, he was telling the truth.
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I agree with you. Before, she was just plain ordinary. The point is not what RACE she was, the point is, she looked ordinary. After she had her eyes enlarged, she was drop dead gorgeous.
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Thank heaven, you see it too, I felt so guilty about saying what I did, but the truth is for TV, you need a certain look..
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Gosh! Wish I had known years ago, Could have gotten my eyes done. I have eyes like my mothers side. Close together and sort of turned up a little. In my mothers young 20 year old photo people say she looks Chinese. I think that the "Vikings" got into the North of UK and Scotland they left a lot of the DNA there for my family.
My Granddaughter had twins 2 years ago. Boy and Girl and the little boy has gotten our eyes. Not the girl. He got the curly hair also and little girl stright
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More killings yesterday at the navy yard.. When will it stop.. Why do they not realize that everyone is NOT entitled to have a gun..
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Maybe not but this guy was ex-Navy and so would have passed any application - you cannot test for when someone will snap - not to minimize but it always amazes me that we are so upset over those shot in a rampage that the number of deaths in a year amount to less than a hundred and yet, we are not equally upset that a hundred a day are killed on the highway - we cannot even get drunk drivers off the road and they are licensed.
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It amazes me that the shooter was a Defense contract employee and had access to the Navy Yard -- even though he had a previous arrest record. The Government needs to tighten up the procedures regarding the background checks of contractors.
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I think that becomes a problem - there are more black men with arrest records than the number of black men with a clean record and to eliminate them from access would affect the job requirements and we would end up with a class action suit - I can see that because one snaps and over the years we have had a few shooters, they are not all from one group or another - what I mean they are not all isolated teens or ex military or folks with an arrest record - the Boston Marathon bomber would not fit any of that group so that it is not easy to figure out how to protect ourselves and still not take away peoples right to work or their other civil liberties.
I can see how a firearm is like fire - it can do good or it can cause harm and with all our safety measures for the ancient control of fire we still had campers this year starting the worst fire so far in our history. I just do not think there is any easy answer to figuring out how to reduce who can carry a firearm or how to reduce the number and ease of obtaining a firearm -
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As a retired Federal employee, I don't think anyone (regardless of their ethnicity) with an arrest record involving firearms, should be hired by a company contracted to do work for the Federal Government. The majority of the Government consists of contractors (which I think is unfortunate) and I think they should be held to the same standards as Federal workers.
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I hear you - I am though so confused - we train young people so that they can use a firearm as second nature and we are not very selective of those who volunteer to learn this skill in order to fight but they are to have the good judgement that will over ride the intense training that supports it is an action without thinking in order to handle living in areas out of a military zone. I wish there was a switch we all had in our heads that would allow us to over-ride any intense training to act without thought - I know most of those discharged from the military can do that - I wonder the difference between those who can and those who do not. That is really what I would like to know - what is it that makes up that difference.
I guess from what you are saying that must be a difference in those, like yourself hired by the Federal Government where law suites are not papering the halls of every office building or installation where as, private contractors have to face the risk of a law suite. Not sure which is better - folks wanting to reduce the Fed Budget want to privatize but then no private contractor can use the same hiring and firing practices. From what i hear only on the news we are not saving any by using private contractors and any savings is not passed on to the US Treasury but goes into the hip pocket of the private contractor.
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An aside - was browsing and found this
http://www.njbg.org/skylandsmanor.shtml#people
I wonder how far from Jean this is located - Jean have you ever visited - the workshops sound wonderful - would love to attend all of them - and Lilac oh oh oh - do you have lilacs in your garden - that is what makes Santa Fe so wonderful in Spring - so many lilac bushes the whole close in part of town smells like lilac perfume.
Also, what grabbed my attention is the oak paneling came from Lyme Regis in Britain. That is the location of the book we will be reading in November, Remarkable Creatures
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I guess my reaction is that now they are saying he was actually carrying a shot gun when he entered the gate.. Why oh why would that be allowed. I had just read that firearms are not carried at all at installations of this type... ??Does that make sense.
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I live in the area and get the Washington Post and the Washington, DC TV channels and radio stations, etc., so maybe I get more complete details than you do.
He had the proper security clearance card to get into the facility. Therefore he got his car though the gate, and he knew he would. He no longer was a government employee, but worked for a PRIVATE CONTRACTOR. I, personally, have never approved of the huge increase in our government, and most especially our Department of Defense, contracting out to private enterprise. It is a Republican thing, quite frankly. They went into it big time with G.W. Bush and the neo cons. The basic principle is: make government smaller and be able to tell the electorate that and then enrich the pockets of the private enterprise Big Wigs who support our being in public office and feeding at the so rewarding trough of power mongers. The end result is this: they can truthfully tell the American people there are far fewer people on the government payroll and they, the Republicans, have therefore kept their campaign promises and made the federal government smaller, BUT they have actually sent even MORE tax dollars to the "contractors" in the public sector who then have to be cleared and who do not work nearly as hard or with as much dedication and training. Scheesch! I wish the whole world could see it from our vantage point here. We see it in folks all around us.
So this man, who had been given a general dismissal from the service (not as good as an honorable) and who had sought psychological help, but they are not allowed to say so, and who had twice shot bullets in extreme anger and police called in in two different states, but it could not go on his record because THERE WAS NO CONVICTION, could get hired on the spot by a private contractor and get right into the Navy Yard. And park. And take his gear into a bathroom and come out shooting.
As long as the NRA and the big corporations own our elected officials, and they do, oh believe me they do, this is the way things will be done and people will die and we will not REALLY be ready to defend our country. Remember how our servicemen had to beg their families at home to send them armor for protection? We did not have it in Defense! The money was pouring into Private Industry!
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The most dire truth is that the public does not remember past a week or two. And they never think back and connect the dots.
And do you know who it was who first warned us of this outcome? Back in 1961, it was. I remember it well. He said:
"The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded."
He was a Republican president of these United States. And he saw what was beginning to happen and was appalled.
Dwight David Eisenhower was his name.
You can find the speech on line everywhere. It was called his "Military Industrial" speech! Historians know all about it. The public cares not.
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Do you connect the dots? Do you see the whole nasty picture?
When government work, that is to say, the public work that taxpayers pay for, is to be "privatized", that is to say, is to be performed NOT by government itself, but by private enterprise corporations who do their own hiring & firing, elected officials who have reinvented the laws of our land to make this possible can receive large contributions to their campaigns and lavish trips and meals and gifts AND the promise of fat paying "consulting" jobs the minute they leave public office from these "private" contractors. Government employees, on the other hand, are not allowed to be politically partisan, beyond their private vote in the voting booth.
And the Republicans toot their horns loudly and proclaim there to be less spending in the government agencies. Well yeah! Less IN them and more OUT of them! And the work being done is careless and uncaring and not good. These firms are not dedicated to the public safety and well being. They are dedicated to making money. Period.
That is what the battle to prevent Obamacare is all about. The huge private industry health organizations are making bazillions ripping off those who can afford to pay for their lives. They don't want to have to cut into their huge profits and actually save the lives of those who cannot afford to pay. Hell no! You can't make a profit and see the world from your private yachts and jetplanes if you give it away to those whose health is actually suffering!
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I live in the area and get the Washington Post and the Washington, DC TV channels and radio stations, etc., so maybe I get more complete details than you do.
He had the proper security clearance card to get into the facility. Therefore he got his car though the gate...
Agree with you on this one MaryPage
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I have never understood this private contracting for any sort of defense or war.. But you do make it clear why.. Republicans nowadays are quite a different breed of cat after Eisenhauer, who has always been a favorite of miine.
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I remember Eisenhower's speech as the Military/Industrial Complex speech, where in his farewell 1961 speech, he warned Americans of the danger of this group's influence.
You probably heard of the Eisenhower administration's Operation Wetback in 1954 where the police swarmed into Mexican-American barrios and picked up those they considered to be illegals and transported around one million of them far back into the interior of Mexico.
We're planning a drive in October thru the Midwest where I grew up. One of the places I want to visit is Eisenhower's home and library/museum in Kansas. Hopefully we'll also get to see Truman's in Missouri. Truman is one of my favorite presidents. I wish I were young enough to see all the presidential libraries. Living in Southern California, I've visited the Nixon and Reagan libraries.
Marj
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It stands to reason that it will always be impossible to gaurantee that everyone who owns a firearm is sane or rational enough to use it appropriately, and won't go anywhere they shouldn't with it.. I must admit it is beyond me what the appropriate use of an AK47 or whatever,by a civilian, might be.
However the US will go on having mass murders till the gun law changes which won't happen in my lifetime. I can just hope not to get caught in a massacre!
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I guess that is how I feel about vehicles made for the road that go over 150 miles an hour. The Bugatti'a, Jags, Ferrari's or the Lamborghini that all can travel over 200 miles an hour.
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It is rather like, Barbara. I mean, you cannot see the sense in human beings spending money on special features they cannot possibly use! In my mind, the automatic refiring guns than can kill dozens of people in minutes are not needed for home protection or hunting. So what are they for? They are great for killing a dozen people at the Navy Yard or twenty children who are sitting ducks in the First Grade.
It is the gun manufacturers that want to manufacture more guns and sell more guns and make more profits. So they pay our politicians to vote their way and only their way. It is not the hunters or policemen or servicemen of this country who think this way. I don't know about your police where you are, but here in Anne Arundel County, Maryland and in Washington DC the police desperately want to see these guns, the ones that can shoot so many at one time, taken out of the hands of civilians.
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Hear hear
I don't think expensive fast cars are the same at all. For a start there aren't nearly so many of them around, and when did you last hear of a fast car mowing down 20 people at a time.
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I agree Dana. Gun laws have to change. In actuality, speeding-related fatalities have decreased in the U.S. in recent years, whereas deaths by gun continue to rise. Like you, I don't think we'll see a change in the gun laws during our life time.
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The comparison between the buying of cars that will go 180 miles an hour with the buying of guns that will kill a dozen people in almost the blink of an eye is not meant to be about how many people each, the cars and the guns, can kill.
No, that is not the point at all.
The point is THE THINKING of some people! The thinking that just doesn't figure any way you look at it.
Why would you spend tons of money you could spend some OTHER way on a car you would not legally be able to drive at those speeds? Whyever in this world would you?
And why would you feel the need of purchasing a gun that will kill so many people so quickly? Let's say you are a hunter. You cannot take this gun, not legally you can't, to kill deer with. It is just not allowed. Not sportmanlike. Not done. No, these guns are acknowledged to be just for killing people. So as I say, go figure!
That is the point of the comparison, the fuzzy thinking, and not the body count in each instance.
No doubt we can think of hundreds of other ways in which people blather on about how they have every right to own and by golly WILL assert their right to own such and such a thing that, when you get down to it, is of no use to them for the purpose it was created for. I.E., in this instance illegal high speeds and illegal killing of masses of people.
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To put it another way, who is actually going to USE that car that cost so much to buy because it is souped up to go a bazillion miles per hour, well, who is going to actually drive it that fast? How CAN they? So what in the world is the POINT? We are not talking race car drivers here.
And how many millions, for that is what the NRA gun manufacturers are selling and want to sell, millions of guns that are manufactured only for the purpose of killing lots and lots of HUMAN BEINGS as fast as possible are going to be used for the purpose for which they are made and sold? Again, what in this world is the POINT of buying and owning such weapons? Outside of the army in a war?
I think it is related to male hormones, I swear I do! Both instances: the cars and the assault weapons.
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And they say that women do not have patience.
So fair have spent 4days trying to get this done. Thank goodness now retired.
What a day for me. Nothing but messing with my car again. No.4 trip to Honda. First to have brakes checked. Also my power locks not working. Told them to check everything. So brakes done but could not get the part needed to fix locks as the car was getting old. I got on line and found 3 places. As they had charged me $99 to look at lock problem and another $570 for rest I wasn't happy specially as brake red light keptcoming on. They found that a part they had put on was broken. Company sending another. Would i take car today they Had gotten part to also fix locks. Needed 4hours. Go to pick up. Brakes now done. Part for lock, wrong. They will order it again. So still have no. 5 trip to make. Good thing I have a lot of patience now.
Now I feel better just typing it out. Such I day. Hope more fun tomorrow.
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Speeding deaths may have lessened but I sincerely wish there were only as many deaths by a vehicle as those who are murdered by a gun, individually or in mass - but that is, as MaryPage explained, not the point - it is not about how many at one time can be killed - A pickup truck is more libel for a mass killing on a highway than the many Jags or Ferrari's and here in Austin there are many, along with the BMWs and Porsche's - it reminds me that each culture has this ridiculous idea of what is top of the line regardless its practicality because, as you say a hunter or a competitive shooter cannot and does not use these specialty guns.
I am seeing that regardless of danger or special care needed to protect the high priced specialty vehicle or gun or jewels or, or, or, folks only think of their ego tied to the ownership - they do not see the responsibility they have for the temptation of mis-use nor the thoughtlessness of putting temptation out for others with little control. I guess I think of how my mom taught me not to leave your money laying around on top of the table when you expect guests or to close your purse and take it with you while shopping or put your wallet in an inside pocket - we are responsible not to leave temptation for others. I think top of the line is a status symbol regardless its final use.
As to stopping the manufacture of any specialty item, I cannot see it happening - so it is illegal in this state or that state or even the entire nation - that does not stop guns from being manufactured elsewhere and it does not stop those who want assault weapons and who have the mucho dollars to buy and pay for illegal transportation of the gun. As long as we have police with these weapons and as long as we have young men coming home from war having used these weapons we have folks who feel they need and want these weapons.
As long as we have gun collectors who, like those who collect cars and have a garage full of vehicles that are capable of more speed than needed there is a market for the outrageous. We cannot say that market is only for certain people - for now at least the cost of powerful guns is great enough that not every Tom, Dick and Harry owns one.
Yes, in 2011 there were less fatal road accidents since 1949 at 32,367 - A bit more than 10% However, in 2011 the total gun related deaths in the US including suicides, accidents, hand gun and long gun is 32,163 and of that, the number of gun murders is 11,101 -
I am trying to come to terms why the news does not make as big a story, except for maybe one news cycle, out of a driver causing multiple deaths. The news does not report an examination into the rational, or lack of, the life history, interviews with their wife or mother, the mental capacity, the religion, the economic circumstances of a drunk driver or a driver who lost control of his vehicle killing 5, 7 or 10 as we do someone who kills as many using a weapon. Even when the weapon is not a specialty weapon but one (or more) that any sportsmen or rancher or farmer has in their home the news continues for a couple of days.
I think we are all, upset and horrified wanting these mass murders to stop - listening to Charlie Rose guests the other night this sounds like a complex problem that they still do not have nailed. The professional dealing with these cases suggests these are people who are essentially committing suicide and want to take many down with them with the expectation of notoriety after death. If this copy cat type of thinking is right maybe it is just as well the highway deaths are not given more air time including the personal history of the driver - we may be keeping copy cats from committing more highway deaths.
I wonder how many homicides can be attributed to the specialty guns - so far the only number I can find of deaths by the specialty vehicles last year are 110. Both owning the high powered gun and the high powered vehicle seem over the top however, unless we find a different number it appears the average pickup and mid size car is responsible for more deaths and most of the mass killings are as a result of hand and long guns holding between 7 and 16 bullets in a clip - A Glock holds 9 to a max 15 bullets and so to have a continuous non-stop barrage of bullets would require some sort of machine gun of which yes, an AK47 would fit - the least expensive is made in China - not the US. Even establishing trade restrictions the gun can still be purchased over seas and brought into the country illegally.
After finding this site I am totally out of ideas how to stop this - this site lists the guns used in every mass murder since Whitman's rampage here in Austin in 1966. There appears to be as many hand guns and simple rifles or shotguns used as semi automatic and the automatic guns with large magazines. http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9781
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Our traffic laws are too lax. I was in Scotland for a wedding some years back. All othe guest were picked up by a small van type.. There was going to be alcohol at the reception and if you are stopped in Scotland and have any type of
alcohol in your system, they take your license on the spot.. Hence, all guest were transported. If we were that strict, my husband would still be alive and so would a lot of others in Florida..
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In Scotland they will fight to the death for their individual rights of freedom, but they do not believe that individual freedom extends to the right to take away the life of other human beings.
In this country, we insist that individual freedom means we have the right to get into a vehicle drunk out of our minds and aim it like the deadly weapon it can be. It also means we can yell at and touch people going into health clinics that also perform abortions, or stand outside the funeral of one of our heroic servicemen and hollar out that they are dead because God Hates Fags and this country allows them.
Then they scream if anyone puts up a bill to make it a law that they are a criminal if they drive drunk or verbally assault clinic patrons or grieving citizens. They insist we plan to take away their Freedom of Speech. What they really mean is we want to stop the mayhem and pain they are causing, but they do not see it that way.
We, as a country, should be protecting the rights of the VICTIMS, not of the victimizing.
But we can't get it right in these cases, just as we keep getting it wrong in the matter of rapists vis a vis their victims.
We do much more to protect drunk drivers and clinic roughians and funeral interrupters and rapists than we do to protect victims. Another young woman, 23 years old with 2 very small children, was killed by her ex husband here in Annapolis just last week. Another case of asking for a protecitive order and a judge denying it. It just goes on and on.
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This issue of male judges who deny restraining orders bothers me a lot. NO PROOF, they bellow, then after the death, they are not even apologetic.. Sigh. We as a nation have a lot to answer for.. Protecting both men and women from others rage is supremely important.. Not that a retraining order stops the really nuts.
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I personally think restraining orders are a waste of time. If someone needs one to keep somebody away, that somebody doesn't give a hoot about a piece of paper. They are in "stalker mentality" and, I think, likely to escalate.
I don't know what the solution is to that "stalker mentality"...but those are very scary people.
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Though some people minimize the value of a protective order as being "just a piece of paper," it is the only legal way to remove the abuser from your home and for a woman to be awarded temporary physical custody of the children.
Police routinely advise women who are in danger to obtain an order. It authorizes the police to arrest the batterer for abusing the woman by doing things that would not ordinarily be against the law, such as going to your home or workplace, or calling you on the phone.
Yes, if someone is in a rage and does not care if he breaks the law then no "piece of paper" will stop him from breaking and entering, nor from battering once inside, nor from killing after entry. However, if the woman has time to make a 911 call after obtaining an order the response will be immediate.
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Barbara...I assume you're referring to Texas law. In Texas, if the person obeys the Order and if you do get prompt law help when you call, then it is indeed a good thing.
I suspect the law and what is included varies greatly from state to state.
It seems that for the people I know, the order has not stopped the stalker type person who seems to believe a "relationship" exists where there is none.
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That is true since anyone wanting to batter anyone - man or women as the batterer or the victim is already breaking the law and so what is one more law to break - but having the order gives some teeth to the authorities and keeps the kids from being removed to foster care.
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I never called for a protection order but did have someone stalking me for a number of years. Was not a good thing. Even found a tracker under my car. Seems it is done more and more these days. To me it is a sickness and one does need to be careful.
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Speaking of connecting the dots, which I was doing a few days ago, while there are many issues and subjects I have been able over the years to do this with, most often with the assistance of my brilliant husband who spent 31 years as an intelligence analyst and many experts in many fields who wrote articles and books which I read, I am continually bumping into new data about things it never occurred to me to examine in any kind of detail. After discovering these sorts of things, I often feel I have egg on my face due to the degree of ignorance I might well have exhibited had I been asked a question before gaining my new insight.
So it has been with a short article in the September 30 issue of The Nation. This one is on the subject of diapers. Who knew!
I would have proclaimed at the top of my voice, had I been asked, that I used cloth diapers for my babies and washed them out by hand. A sense of superior certainty would have suffused my being as I also considered how the land fills were not added to by mountains of my infants excrement and far fewer trees died to protect their chubby little butts. Not to mention the cash money I saved.
OK, here is a summing up of the facts, and I am abashed at my ignorance. It costs about $100 a month to diaper a child up to and through their becoming house broken. For most poor women this means a choice of diapering or not eating. So they dump out the contents of the diapers and PUT THEM BACK ON THE BABY! Rashes, UTIs, chafing and worse ensue. Oh, and they can't afford the usual remedies for these things, either. So the babes suffer dreadfully.
The mothers get very depressed over this situation. So do the babies. If the mothers work, most daycare places will not allow cloth diapers. For want of a diaper, their job may be in peril. But it is forbidden to buy diapers with food stamps! Most poor women do not own washing machines, and most laundromats will not let you wash diapers!
This article goes on and on and on, until I am forced to realize that when you are downtrodden, the world just stomps you down further and further and further.
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Oh me, MaryPage, I really never looked at it that way. I used cloth diapers and washed them, rinsed them in white vinegar, etc etc. My arguement with the other sort of things is the length of time the children stay in them.. They go from diapers to pull ups to all sorts of things.. Housebreaking infants used to be routine, but am not quite sure that new mothers do much of it any more.
One of our charities locally that does a lot of work with small children and infants routiney asks for pampers, etc since they say the same as you.The mothers cannot afford them and they are necessary.
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I honestly believe that ONE, and only one, mind you, but a major one, answer to the difficulties of the poor young mothers and their children is to make birth control pills FREE from the taxpayers of this nation. Free in every pharmacy and hospital and health clinic and you name it.
This would eliminate most, not all, but most unwanted children.
The problem is the folks who say it is against their religion!
Their religion tells them God means every baby to be born. My religion differs. My religion says God is allowing us to figure things out for ourselves and to add up the figures and connect the dots.
Under our present way of doing things, women are forced to become pregnant despite their urgent wishes not to, and then forced to carry that pregnancy to term and produce another mouth to feed and bottom to diaper.
But the time span the religious are interested in: i.e., fertilization to birth, has now passed. Having been born, these little humans can jolly well starve or die of disease (like the UTIs that plague them) or whatever! Hey, their goal is accomplished: they got them born!
It just does not compute in my brain!
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The controversy that gets me is the lack of ease to get the day after pill - in my mind EVERY new purse should include one day after pill and a small compartment in the purse to carry the pill just as there should be a pocket to carry your I phone.
Those whose hue and cry is over young teens being introduced to the concept have their head in the sand - if a girl does not know, how does she protect herself - it is not like it was even as recently as 15 years ago - young women who are subject to early sex are not only a part of the going culture but often, they comply because they were sexually messed with as kids - when grown ups are either not told or if told, and do nothing because they do not know how to handle it or the girl knows if she tells someone goes to jail and she is silent not wanting to deal with that or if she tells friends it is all over facebook - the girl learns that sex is what is expected in order to be liked, included and loved plus, she also learns her body is not valuable - these are some of the reasons for early pregnancies that if we adopt a culture of the day-after-pill as common as an I phone we would have more wanted children than unwanted pregnancies.
We wonder why there is such an epidemic of bullies among kids from Jr. high onward - look at all the adults who want their way and bully their kids rather than teach with love - look at how many ministers bully their congregation from the pulpit - look at how many police bully anyone they stop - look at how this nation has a truck load of legislators in every layer of government bullying women, gays, immigrants -
We are justifying past horrors for bullying those who are Muslims and then we talk about how awful we were during WWII to the Japanese - no, we do not ship folks off to camps but then, what do you call the monstrous number of Black men incarcerated, who, as we learn their infractions were the kind when we were kids was taken care of in our community - and to top it off this nation did us all a disservice bullying us into believing smoking marijuana would lead us to all sorts of horrors including taking the first step to becoming addicted to serious drugs. Regardless, our attitude about the use of marijuana the bullying tactics is the issue.
We wonder where the kindness has gone - we wonder at the rudeness at every turn - we are horrified that actions we assumed were an easy normal way of life must be re-taught as acts of human dignity - from the way our economic system works to how many kids have to meet an outside force as their way to be educated we have power mongers in charge who use their bully pulpit to bully compliance. We must walk around with a protective shield - some call it greed I see it as bullying with greed an aspect of wanting and pushing power which is all a bully wants is the power over others.
Part of this I blame industry and corporations who are the leaders in how salaries are established. Salaries never took into account that a women has the care of children to consider when she is on the job and so Day Care workers and Teachers in primary schools have never been paid except begrudgingly because the workplace always treated day care with annoyance as if it was not their responsibility - The benefit of cheap labor was and still is the women on the job but ingrained now is the habit to a paycheck that supports the sacrifice of children - Industry never wanted to own the children that men never owned in the workplace so they expected women to disown in the workplace as if it was their scarlet letter to have to afford day care.
Without the expectation that Day Care workers and Primary school teachers are professionals paid as professionals in industry with similar higher education the service industry for children are seeing themselves as they are paid and too often revert to handling the children like a job without respect for individual children or if their nurturing skills are tapped, they do the job as they were treated when their mother reacted in an over worked situation with too many children who all needed her attention.
And primary school teachers are now being bullied into proving their value with tests created by young often inexperienced folks who want a part time job in the summer and have to resort to a bevy of textbooks to make up these tests. Real teaching is to grow someone's natural curiosity into skills - there is no longer any time for that since the teacher has been bullied into accepting her value and paycheck is dependent on her students passing a test created by folks who never taught the grade level she is teaching.
No matter how differently we see these issues we are so bent out of shape and want change our way so that we end up joining the ranks of the bullies - I am beginning to sound like Ron Paul but in that one issue he comes close - I do not think we let live and live but I do think the idea of making others do what we want by getting enough folks to agree is the heart of what makes a bully -
I do not think there are only the extremes of either a bully or laissez faire and I do understand how when emotions are involved it is easy to act out bully like tactics - but it is just as easy when emotions are involved to like, love, support, be respectful, smile not want to hurt someone's feelings who we care about - on every level we could disagree while we elevate respect for each other - what we do to offset thousand of years of disrespect to mothers and children - to women in general I wish there was a magic pill. We could at least recognize we ARE being bullied and learn how to deal with bullies.
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Well said, Barbara!
Some basics about human society:
Males want sex.
Males think about having sex 24/7 from about the age of 13.
Males bully females into sex with all sorts of promises.
Males blame the female for enticing them and then color the female a whore and dump the ones they have impregnated, saying the consequences are the females to deal with.
Males squeal like stuck pigs if asked to pay child support or have their tax dollars support children of single unwed or divorced mothers.
Men who take vows of celibacy make up rules that females must never use contraceptives and must give birth to every conception.
There are exceptions to these basics, but the exceptions are few and far between.
So, we need to be honest about these basics and deal with them!
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Off topic, but this is an article from the new on-line Smithsonian magazine (that we get via e-mail) about women.
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/history/2013/09/the-women-who-mapped-the-universe-and-still-couldnt-get-any-respect/?utm_source=smithsoniantopic&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20130922-Weekender
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This is great Maryz - an enlightening article - however, yes always a however, I think we are still accepting this attitude as the norm - sure it was history but we are not outraged as we are when we read of other exploitation.
But regardless of the unequal pay and distribution of duties, this work was incredibly important; the data provided the empirical foundations for larger astronomical theory. Pickering allowed some women to make telescopic observations, but this was the exception rather than the rule.
We are still fighting unequal pay - we still do not have any compensation for the care of children or a norm of day care centers in the vicinity of any company with 100 or more workers. This should be as common as a secretary who takes messages or a phone system that holds messages or a lunch room/lounge for breaks.
The work hours have always treated individuals as if they are not part of a family - they are OK if they are part of a community of other individuals even to having a campus like setting to work in that encourages community or boxes at various sports stadiums or even a box at the local concert hall - they will even go as far as to acknowledge workers have wives or husbands who are included during various events and maybe an annual Spring or Winter event for the children but that is going by the wayside in their cost cutting measures.
Interesting how each generation of men learn from the preceding generation that where women are now ALLOWED to enjoy equal opportunity they are expected to have the same relationship with their children that man have had which seems to be out of sight out of mind. For heavens sake even park rangers do not have their kids in tow when they are taking a group of visitors out to see the wonders of nature or if they are setting up the fire lite campsite where park campers will spend the evening with storytellers.
I wonder whatever happened to the many small companies that we heard of back 20 years ago started by moms and they were working in barns etc. with their babies and dogs making things liek applesauce and fleece hiking clothes. I wonder with the original children grown and probably collage age if they still have young moms working or if the companies still exist rather than being sold off for a profit to a large buyout company.
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There are more places in my town to get Birth Con. Pills. Even the University clinic they are Free. I read how many children are now born out of wedlock( over 40% in US. with one person having them not with the same man. In my town it is really high. See young girls with 2 o3. Must get the diapers free someplace as it doesn't stop them from having babies because of the cost.
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Another thing changed. Babies were out of diapers much younger is seems. My eldest girl 12 months and next one about 14 months. It was expected. Even in my family I see them 3 years old still wearing diapers. One went to Nursery school and mother told he had to be trained. Now these a Grandsons wives so I never say a thing.
If one can train a puppy in a few weeks and that does take patience as I have done it. Then they should work harder on training babies. It can be done. I knew one person whose child could go into fridge and fill its own bottle . See them using pacifier's at 3 to 4 years old. Not in my days or daughters children also. (One can talk to their own daughters). Just to many things are accepted these days.
Cloth diapers were not that bad. After all it wasn't but wet most of the time. If anything else then was a problem once they got by a few months old.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
Jeanne,, I do agree,the number of small children carrying a bottle or a binkie in diapers when they walk and talk is amazing. I lived across the street from a woman still nursing a year old..Oh well, life changes.
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oops lost the four for how old the child was.
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Many are now nursing way over a year. One I knew did it until she got pregnant again. Remember the use to say you couldn't get pregnant when nursing. Not true. Does happen. Also . Can't at time of period, safe until 10 days after. Also false. My doctor UK always told me. There are 27 days in a month you can. I believed him. Right or wrong. A friend who was strong catholic was strong believer in going by the calendar. Got 11children. ( not by choice).
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Ah, the good old rhythm method. doesnt work, but oh how many people believed it.
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DON'T, whatever you do, Don't miss the documentary INEQUALITY FOR ALL. I have not seen it yet myself, as I intend to buy the DVD as soon as it is available (it is no longer comfortable for me to go to the movies), but friends tell me it is superb. Robert Reich did it.
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I nursed two of my children for at least a year, the middle one had to cut short because I was pregnant. Going by what the doctor said, which was that my child and I would know when it was time to move to a cup only, the transition was easy. My mother had never nursed, so she had no opinion, and she would never have judged me on that anyway. I learned early on, from those around me, that too early toilet training meant "mom" was trained, rather than the child, and the doctor again said we'd know when it was time, and it worked. When my children were babies, I was told it was dangerous for them to be on their backs, and I was encouraged to put them on their stomachs to sleep - now it's the opposite - so I try to keep my opinions to myself. Things change.
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As I understand the value of nursing longer has something to do with anti-bodies that passes to the child from the mother that not only keep the baby healthy but has something to do with future health.
I too did not and could not nurse - tried with my first and with no support plus confusing information I ended up with impacted breasts that all the milk ducts had to be stripped from two months after I gave birth - thank goodness I was young because within that year - exactly 9 months and 6 weeks later, I had my second baby - I had such morning sickness that just back on my feet after the milk duct surgery I was back in the hospital for the morning sickness.
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I nursed my first child for six months. and like others waited on the toilet training until I felt that my child and I could handle it, but my neighbor.. Her son at 4 would walk into a room full of people, walk up to Mom, and whip out the breast and takea swig..Definitely a power issue. He was a most unpleasant small child.. Very prone to tantrums. slept in their bed until
Dad put hisfoot down.. then slept in the corner of the bedroom on the floor since he refused to sleep in his bed. We started out letting our granddaughter play with him, when she visited, but after she came home in tears because he grabbed a bar of soap and shoved it into her mouth, I never let her over there again. Then he started stealing things when he came to our house, so I had to call a halt to the whole thing. She was grateful and announced thathe was a very mean boy..I actually thought he was a disturbed boy, but not in my house.
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In the October 2013 issue of National Geographic there is a photograph of a 40 year old Afghan man sitting next to his bride.
I would title the picture: THIS CHILD IS ABOUT TO BE RAPED!
Because, you see, she is eleven. 11. Years old.
I think it is on Page 76 if you want to run and have a look.
The world should scream!
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Thought I answered this somewhere. Yes, in Yemen, they had a picture of teeny little girls and old fat horrible men. They have no shame.. no humanity. They have to have daughters so much older tha the babies. What is wrong with this culture.
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Thinking MEN are the only humans who matter, having been made in the image of the MALE god, and females just represent an inferior servant class with wombs to carry their SONS while cooking their meals and cleaning their man caves and being sexually available to satisfy their urges.
That is what is wrong with this culture.
But hey, we are still trying to clean up our own!
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I really owe the early training of2nd daughter to my first. She was a little over2years older and was well trained when 2nd. Came . So when she went to bathroom and baby was beginning to crawl she followed behind her. Watched what she did and wanted lifted up. Many a time I had to go and lift baby up out of toilet as she was a chunky one,little heavy. Caught on fast.
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The culture that permits old men to carry off the young girls has something inherently wrong with it. Then the boys must wait way too long to find a wife..The polygamous cultures in Utah, etc are like that aswell.
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If it were only allowed that the little girls be educated, then their daddys would no longer be able to sell them. For that is what happens: they get BOUGHT for a bridesprice. Sick. But going on forever.
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Hmm, somehow we need to turn the tables. Sell the old lechers, not that anyone would want to buy them.
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How 'bout castrating the old lechers?
And the young ones.
Seriously, I do believe we should make it a part of the sentence of every single rapist that they must be castrated. No appeal.
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MaryPage sounds like appropriate anger however, not everyone today that is convicted of rape is what we would call a rapist - young people have a way of creating drama and many a seventeen year old or nineteen year old is convicted of rapping the girl who under the age of sixteen was their girl friend - something goes wrong and they break up or the father finds out and whoosh it is called rape and he is prosecuted and convicted of rape that ends up on his record.
Then there is a normal everyday rape by guys who should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but the girls cannot tell and he knows it because if they do tell and they did not come to the US as very young children then back to Mexico they are shipped which does not stop him. Also, if the word gets out and he gets laughed at or the girls stand up for themselves then he reports a member of their family, a mother or a father who is then shipped back to Mexico which tears a family apart so the girls have no protective rights.
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There are a lot of rapes that dont fit either category.. I agree that boyfriends of just over 18 should not be prosecuted, but on the other hand, these 25-30 year olds who take on a 14-15 year old girl should be prosecuted big time.
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Women, children, and the very old are the ones most suffering from the shutdown of government.
Desperately poor are not getting Meals On Wheels and related services, food stamps, shots for babies, special formulas prescribed, and so on. Lots of desperate stories on television news.
What puzzles me is how come it is WE, the people, who elect the men and women to office to perform the service of forming a government and naming agencies to perform services and appointing people to head those agencies and giving them very explicit orders as to what their duties are and making up all the hiring, firing and retiring rules and regulations to govern the masses of employees who do the work required of these agencies, and THEN! Then these same elected officials declare the government is no damn good and we can all be better off without said services and they lay off all the workers! Lay them off! Without pay! When this country and the world are in deep financial difficulties already, they SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!
And a few of the most anti-government loudmouths have the moxie to parade out to the vets who cannot get into their shutdown memorial which is run by the Park Service, whose OFF THE PAYROLL employees showed up to man the barricades while all the time they are sick with worry about how they are going to pay their bills, and these strutting congresspeople berate the very employees they themselves have laid off for not being on the job!!!!! They accused them of all manner of things for not letting the vets in to the memorial which was closed because THEY themselves had closed it!
This is a mad, mad, mad world!
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Seeing that Rep. in his fancy suit berate that female Park Ranger and telling her she should "be ashamed" sent my blood pressure into the stratsophere. How could we, the American people, have elected so many idiots to gov't?
If you missed this arrogant Representative: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2013/oct/04/rep-neugebauer-drawing-ire-formal-complaint-for/#axzz2gr1FZIZb
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And she was working without pay! No paycheck coming forth! No way to pay her bills and feed her family! She was there, working for her agency, just to keep chaos from reigning!
And HE WAS ONE OF THOSE who shut down that agency and caused the closing of the Mall in Washington, D.C. and all of the Memorials and Parks there and all over the country.
Then he shows up and berates HER for not allowing the vets in to see their Memorial! HE shuts it down and HE blames HER!
Strutting his red, white & blue patriotism and making her look the Scrooge!
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I see the Koch brothers running the country making Congressmen crazy - Koch money finances to the hilt a Tea Party candidate so that with money alone the candidate wins - all you have to do is read Coercion: Why We Listen to What "They" Say http://tinyurl.com/pulkjdo and you quickly learn that the best of us and the brightest of us are not immune and end up voting for these candidates. Those of us who think we are too smart to be coerced, that smartness is used as the weapon. A good campaign knows how to use these tactics.
The Koch brothers have the Republicans - if they do not fall in line than they find and finance a Tea Party candidate that will run against them. As much money as a candidate can put in a war chest they are always topped by the Koch brothers who want their form of politics to rule. On top of which there is no holds bared on any big money financing what ever they want since the recent ruling by the Supreme Court that now, after a history of even being taught in school that a corporation was not an individual it appears to me big money is influencing the courts.
We are comparing the current state of Washington with what we knew - think about it - Chris Matthews wrote a book, that I want to read that explains how Tip O'Neil was a good friend and worked with Reagan even though they fought each other and said, during the work day some terrible things about each other. This is the Washington we expect and is no more.
Now the knee jerk instinct is no longer finding any common ground but to challenge and make it into all out war. They are no better than the police who no longer use any sense but their first instinct is to shoot - not just after seeing it was a lone women with a child in back and then letting go a barrage of bullets, that shoot first behavior is happening over and over in our cities. Here we have had several unarmed men killed because the fled in fear of the police and the police killed them. The authority of this nation are all on another level of using their power then we have ever seen. It is no different than living in a home with a raving drunk. Regardless what we do we cannot out-think the next chaotic event.
Have you noticed the ones who act like they will not take any hostages but, bull doze, regardless who is hurt, their agenda are all under the age of 60 - I know this sounds crazy even for me however, this is the 50th year since it was made illegal to pray in schools. All these guys were in school, in grade school when that became law.
It is not a particular prayer that I think made a difference as much as taking a minute out each day to give honor to a system of moral values that like saying the pledge each day (which they no longer do either) grounded a kid to realize there is more than how well they do on a test or how well they come across bullying a classmate. The lose of school prayer was also the beginning of the 'me' generation. God is out of the way and so "me" and my ego are it! That means I must be powerful and anyone or group who can help lift me into a position of power is my mentor, regardless government or private sector.
If officials now, regardless in Washington or even security at the airport can rattle their sabers of power like out of control kids bringing a reign of behavior that is all about them, then like a raving drunk they need a treatment center - the least expensive is to attend 12 step meetings and one of the first things you learn is to accept and turn to a higher power that most of us are comfortable believing that is a God.
The only God we have now is the battle over abortion and gays - the God of love and compassion disappeared with school prayer which I am realistic enough to know it never coming back. But why did that mean we no longer start the school day standing in place and saying aloud the pledge - not a pledge no one listens to that is said over the loud speaker but each student participating and why do we no longer teach civics in school so that we know what our representatives are hired to do and how this nation is supposed to work.
I am angry but more i want it fixed and knowing how we can no longer fix Washington we need to see that kids today are not educated to follow in the footsteps of these floundering, "me" centered elected representatives with no sense of "liberty and Justice for all".
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OK my rant - and yes, I see many in power falling into the same ego trap so that Congress is only part of the "me" system. Get the book and you will see what we are up against.
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I have never seen an iota of evidence that praying in public schools or not praying in public schools eliminated or caused any bad behavior on the part of children or grown up children.
I have noticed that most of the sex crime offenders seem to be priests, pastors, devout practicing Christians, Jews or Muslims. It is as though the strict rules about sexual behavior somehow excite some primal urge within and cause them to live their lives on the edge, enjoying the adrenaline of possibly getting caught.
I was in grade school years before the "under God" was inserted in the Pledge of Allegiance, and out of college before it was. Can't tell that that has made a whiff of difference, either; other than satisfying the faction who fought to put it in. I do remember that the classrooms I was in, many of them on Army bases, raced through the morning recitations at the speed of light, just dying to get them over with!
Inspired? I don't think so!
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Maybe that is it we all have a different experience - I am remembering not so much the particular prayer as it was a time we were quiet showing and feeling a sense of reverence and it was immediately followed by the recitation of the pledge so that like at home saying a prayer before dinner prompted behavior that was different than when we just sat down for lunch or scooted out the door eating other meals. Prayer in school and before a game was like that - not talking about a particular religion or a minister, priest or what have you, leading a prayer that is followed in order to obey some adult attitude of duty - but the ones we said in class most often each taking turns leading the prayer. Again, that attitude of shared reverence with prayer followed by the pledge is gone and will never return and my concern is how and with what do we replace it.
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Well, I never noticed or felt any particular reverence, but we all have different perceptions and experiences, and I would no more negate yours than I would have you do so regarding my own.
I do feel strongly that children are not being taught polite behavior any more, as it was demanded of us back then. But I do not attribute this to religious observance at all, as many of these rude children of today are big time church goers, and what is more, they let you know it, which we were taught never to do. I think the culture itself has degraded polite behavior as the decades have rolled on. Parents do not teach it to their children or demand it of them, and teachers have to be ever so careful not to offend the children by correcting them and having the parents lodge a complaint against them. In my day, teachers RULED, and parents expected them to and we were punished if there was a complaint about our "deportment" from a teacher. Remember deportment? The word does not exist anymore!
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Yep, something else that is gone - respect for teachers much less anyone other than the police in the schools being authority figures. That is what it is to me MaryPage - this lack of respect for each other and for many youngsters even for themselves. That was what I saw come from kids being prayerful together but as you say it is not even the way of church going kids today - it is that lack of respect for each other that I see featured in all the news reports so that the issues are secondary to some outrageous behavior or attitude of disrespect. That is where I would love to see some ideas shared as to what could be done to bring an element of respect for each other back into the thinking and treatment of each other - it is like even the media is a b rated movie since they seem to thrive on featuring all this disrespect.
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I was in public elementary school in the late 40s and graduated from high school in 1959. I don't recall that there was ever a prayer in any class. We did the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, but never a prayer.
To me, it's more important how a child is taught at home to respect others, to believe in whatever religious views his parents have, to be taught integrity and honesty and moral values. That's what parents are for!
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Sounds good but then all those in Congress that are examples of disrespect are parents and for the most part kids are in school with after school sports and music more time than they are home plus at home there is all the disrespect on the TV, Twitter is filled with it, and some kids make facebook an extension of their disrespect to each other. Maybe we are really talking about the bullies both adults and kids.
Interesting my kids were in school during all that and many of them had prayer meetings under the stadium each morning as their right - a little later in high school they were also into pot but ;) they said their prayers before school and before each game.
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My personal view is that what you pray privately, all by yourself alone to God, is what counts and what indicates who you are and what spirituality you possess.
Public prayer, public oaths, hymns sung in unison and all of that is just mechanical repetition. It rarely has any meaning for most of those participating beyond the comfort of group unity. There is a very strong physical effusion of mutuality that courses through the veins briefly, and then is gone. Yearning for that, folks gather together for many rituals. But do many of the individuals within these groups have an ongoing sense of God being ever present? Do any?
Or do they just want the consolation of acceptance by the particular group?
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That is what I see Marypage the group unity - there are few ways that we can experience that in a respectful way - pledging to a nation is one but most group yells and cheers or other expressions of group unity are often one group against another group -
Few play an instrument to join a group all playing together which is another way to solidify a group. School bands are great unifying groups. By solidifying groups there is respect in that group that can expand to an attitude of respect in their lives - I am sure part of it is having a connection with a group however we have so many group experiences now that pit one against the other and even some have seen prayer as a way to pit one church against the other where as there was a sense of group when kids regardless Jewish, Armenian, Mexican, a few Blacks since busing also started at this time, Chinese and Anglos that were the typical makeup of classes my kids attended that used to have their prayer circles -
Again, this was in this area and it was a unifying force where as from what you are saying it was not the unifying experience of other areas - it was not started by or attended by the adults where as when the older of these kids were in their early grades it was a normal start for the school day. My oldest two were in Jr High when prayer was stopped in the schools. And we only live 4 streets away where Madalyn Murray O'Hair lived.
I still think banning public prayer was emblematic of a lack of tolerance for differences - I miss Christmas that is now celebrated only as a non-christian festival - to have added events on the capital grounds by other religious groups for their special holidays I still think would teach more respect and tolerance than banning everything. I think this just added to the feeling of many Christian and Jewish groups to become more politically involved that feels less like a unifying assertion and more like a self protective and therefore intolerant political war.
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Now Barbara, this is just plain amazing!
I see it in exactly the opposite way. The way I see it, prayer was banned in public schools because they are just that: PUBLIC schools. Not Catholic schools or Protestant schools or Buddhist schools or Jewish schools or Islamic schools or Confucian schools or Hindi schools or any other sect or creed, but PUBLIC schools where all of these religions are represented by the student body and the faculty.
Many, many schools, especially in the South, insisted upon prayers that ended with the words: "In Jesus name we pray." Or words to that effect. This is very destructive of the confidence children of other faiths need to have built up during their educational experience. Jewish children, Muslim children, atheistic or agnostic or Buddhist children. Shinto children. On and on.
We are a nation dedicated to separation of church and state. To insert a period of prayer into a PUBLIC school education shows only that the majority group is intolerant of every other group.
Prayer belongs at home, in a house of worship, and in the privacy of each individual. We can choose religious schools for ourselves or our children, or let church and/or Sunday School suffice. Whatever, the rule of law that has precedence here is that we each may CHOOSE. If our school forces prayer upon us, that is not following the law as written into our Constitution.
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I guess like most things it can be inclusive or exclusive - we just had a bunch of kids that were inclusive. But I see your point - I still see it as sad - like throwing the baby out with the tubwater - but then yes, if one religion is going to take dibs over the prayer that is a problem and so I can see where you are coming from - however my big concern that we still need ideas - so prayer is banned but what is a good replacement that encourages group bonding and respect for each other at least within the group that can extend outward. Political groups but like rival schools it is pitting folks against each other and that is all I see the kids are exposed to today - the pitting of one set of habits, ideas and rituals against the other so there is less tolerance and little respect. What could become a binding force that is what I want to know...
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WOMEN ruling the world instead of warlike men.
That's what!
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I agree MaryPage from both a student and teacher perspective. When i was in public school and we were still saying the Lord's Prayer", there were only two Jewish families in town. The dgt of one was in my class and every morning Marcia left our homeroom when we got ready to say the prayer. I never thought about where she went, did she just stand in the hall? But it obviously singled her out as being "different." I can't imagine how she felt. And saying the prayer was just rote for most of us, like saying a multiplication table.
I saw the same roteness (my ipad says that's not a word, but you see my point ) when i was teaching. I doubt very much if saying that prayer every morning ever made any student behave better that day.
Jean
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Here's a link about a speech given by the head of the Mormon Church. Some things haven't changed much.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Mormon-leader-Essential-to-have-women-at-home-4871824.php
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Same old, same old.
But the same primal scream comes up through my whole being:
"WHY do women buy into this?"
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Damned if I know, MaryPage. My sweetie says it's like blacks being in favor of slavery.
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The TV needs to stop talking about children and poor starving in U.S not true. My area they are eating better than have for years. Getting free breakfast and lunch at schools even in summer. Free medical .dental clinics open weekends .subsidized housing? About 8 places in town collecting food and clothing open every day. Only ones are the people living on the streets and most of them want that life . My daughter was director big women's shelter 30 years SIL. State investigate 34years . Say people getting more on the welfare programs than what people who worked 40 hours a week were living on 20 years ago. People should be helped but made more responsible for their lives and the children they seem to like bringing into the world.
Let theTV show more of the people In the world that are really hurting. Show on TV what hardship and going to bed hungry is really like. It is not standing in a Line for free stuff, smoking a cig. And talking on a mobile phone. All the country needs . Leaders who know what they are doing and how to use funds right. They built a14 mil. Sport/ swimming park this year right in what is/supposed to be the poor section of my town. Only opens in summer. They closed down a perfectly good school and built a new on because the old wasn't air conditioned .this is only needed for a few weeks when school starts in late August. Now it is compulsory to send children to nursery school age 3 half days in order to go into kindergarten. Buses picking them uo and dropping them off home. Mothers now can sit home free of them 4 hours a day. When my girls 4 it cost us to send to both a nursery and kindergarten until age 5.
Picking them up and taking ourselves.
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I don't share your view, Jeanne. There are millions of people going hungry all over this country every day, most of them children and the elderly.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
No need to. There is help out there. I see no need of it. Don't see it around here. See some who expect people to just feel sorry for them and give. Want things handed to them. The old saying " god will help them who help themselves." Some don't want to do that. Long as the can get for doing nothing they will never change. This is the US. Not a third country. You can stop having babies. Be educated..go where you want. Find help if sick or needing help. Feeling sorry and just giving without teaching doesn't help the poor. Just makes them lazy. That use to be the thought in the past. Now it is called do more for the unfortunate . To many now working the system. It needs thinning out. Many are way to young to be doing nothing. They do get more help than the elderly. They do still have pride.
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I guess I see a different world also. There are always some who take advantage of a situation, but most people use the help to keep themselves afloat until they can grasp onto a job or a better job.
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Ruth Benerito died today at age 97 in LA. Until today, I'd never heard of her or that she was one of my heroes. She invented permanent press. Anyone who knows me knows how I feel about ironing - and that I stopped ironing as soon as permanent press was invented and I could replace all our clothes. This previously unknown savior contributed a large benefit to my life. Click here for a Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_R._Benerito) and click here for a Slate obituary (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/10/07/ruth_benerito_death_of_an_unknown_american_hero.html) about her.
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Never a lover of ironing. Years ago when the girls young I dressed them in dresses. Hated pants on myself and them. However I had a lady living close who loved ironing and she did all mine. When that material came then I know it helped with the shirts men wore. I must not know how to do laundry right so that things come out not needing to be ironed. I still iron a little my slacks. Blouses. Cotten tops. Now up to 10 years ago when my MIL passed she was still ironing her panties.husbands under shorts. Pillow cases,sheets and even Cotten dish towels along with all their clothes.
One thing I can't stand is the smell of things done at dry cleaners. Never buy anything that has to go there.
Growing up I never saw laundry done. A list was filled out on a Monday of all the dirty clothes and things. All returned Thursdays all clean. Ironed. By a laundry company. Came here a my MIL had a machine with tub where they washed from whites first to colored last. Put through a
ringer. Hung out to dry. Was a full day job . Will say ,they always looked and smelled so good. But looked hard work to me.
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scratching my head trying to figure it out - because I never iron and yet, I do not own anything that is permanent press - how can that be - I do know years ago we learned permanent press is very uncomfortable to wear in our heat - it does not breathe and you end up becoming a soaked dripping wet stinky mess in no time flat -
I do wear cotton Ts everyday including long sleeve cotton Ts in winter and to dress it I wear either a silk shirt that gets cleaned at the cleaners or some cotton or linen big shirts - that's it - aha - I wash them and then bring them to the cleaners for them to press and since they are worn like jackets you wear them a bunch before they need to be washed - my pants are either that crinkly whatever that Orvis sells or some sort of cotton knit or jeans and in winter fake suede or corduroy - they all wash and dryer dry. Mystery solved.
I do remember though when the older two were in their earliest years in elementary school we lived in Kentucky and permanent press then was a God Send - there was a clean shirt or blouse or dress everyday and my little one also wore shirts and even shorts that had to be ironed - thinking back kids didn't wear Tshirts except as underwear. I wonder when wearing Tshirts started.
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P.s on my last posting
My MIL was a example of what I called growing up poor. Grew up on a old farm in the country.9 brothers and sisters. Her mom.left a widow when young .all had to leave school about 16. MIL at that age and worked until 65
. I never saw. Them getting anything for free or complaining how hard life had been. They took any work the could get. Her mother was the sweetest lady. No complaints for her life. Some of them did well.some just got by. One sister still here age 95. Had to give up her home she and husband worked hard to build .lost him year he retired . Moved in to take care of a daughter for 20 years. Then she passes at 50. I talk to her once in a while . She lives in assisted living in Chicago. Still not a complaint from her. Makes me feel good when I hang up.
That is why I think that many young today are not doing enough to help themselves. Life is much easier to do it now.
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I guess it would be nice to live where Jeanne lives. I guarantee here in central Florida, there are a lot of children doing without meals.. unless they get them in school. which means every weekend, they dont eat. They live in cars.. I have been workiing with the teens and I could cry over their lives. They have none of the carefree anything. Many of them have never had a father around..Their mother has too many children, but it does not make the children bad.. just the mother who keeps hoping for love in all the wrong places.
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Then they should start with the women who do have baby after baby. This is we're most of the poverty is. Looking at one photo in today's paper. Wanting us to be sorry because with the problem of gov close down she can't get the form allowing her to renew. Food card for another. 3 year.. 4 children under seven. None have the same last names. Single. (What kind love she looking for?)
Maybe this new health the pres. Is trying to bring out. Every one have a health card. Will make people notice this. Birth control. Cheapest health thing there is .available to everyone. Why should these women be catered to. If it had been allowed in our younger days. We could have gotten welfare. Not had to work. Had as many children as we wanted . Think what the country would be like. Now think what will be like when our GGGrands grow up. Won't be better. Some people just being sorry think will take care of problem. Remember the old saying.( you have to be cruel ,to be kind) maybe Obama heard this.
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Jeanne, I do feel that is a very harsh view of things. But then again, I have seen so very much desperate poverty, and obviously you have not.
We have, in this country, many women who have been disadvantaged from birth. Children raised in poverty, often with one parent who is struggling to simply survive and has no time to be a role model. The males of this culture promise the attention and affection these females quite naturally, being as human as you and I, crave. The males learn to promise them the moon, and then, finally caving and allowing sex to happen, many, if not most, gals get promptly dumped. The males have a natural instinct to spread their seed. The female just wants to be loved. But NO ONE provides this young woman with birth control. There is a very vocal, even though a small minority, segment of our population that insists birth control remain unavailable through any government service OR government SUPPORTED service. And these same people do all they possibly can to close down Planned Parenthood clinics where women suffering poverty can get for FREE the pills they so desperately need.
Can a young woman trying to raise a child on wages earned at MacDonald's find dollars within her budget to purchase birth control pills? Not on your life! She cannot even afford diapers or formula!
But where can she go to get them for free? No clinic within a hundred miles or more! The very same people who castigate her for getting pregnant in the first place have seen to that!
Poverty goes on and repeats itself and much of society does its damnedest to make it worse. If you miss one rent payment, you get evicted. If you miss a utility payment, they pile on the late fees. There is a never ending vicious cycle.
We who have been blessed with the advantages of a decent life and a good education have a moral obligation to take care of those members of our community who have slipped between the cracks. We do. It is beholden upon us. And we cannot allow children to be continually sick and malnourished because there are some grownups who cheat. If our congress would just set up the funds to OVERSEE the programs they fund, we could prevent cheating.One of the dirtiest secrets in Washington DC and in every state capital is that the legislators fund programs to help and then no money for oversight. No money for inspectors or investigators or even ordinary clerks to be hired and paid to double check. Everything is scrimped on, and then when a cheater is outed and the media proclaims the story, they want to quit helping anyone at all.
Most of us humans have an instinct to be self sufficient. But children need adult help. They do not ask to be born.
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But Mary page.
This is now 2013 in the USA. Not the poor countries . How long are women go to stay the way you are showing them. World was that was back in our grandmothers days.not now . Didn't women learn from them ?. The next learn and by the time WW2 ended shown what women were capable of. Morals seem to be going downhill. Far more poor children with single women these days.
As I said before. I have seen in US with my daughter being involved with this life style for 35 years . I am a European know what hard times were like going through the war years. Food short . Freezing cold going without . Little hard for me to accept what has happened to the US . People want so much for doing nothing.
I was at the Salvation Army food distribution the other day and saw what they could not give away. Lots of veg. Told me people only took can goods. P.butter. Cereal things that did not take them long to fix . Seethe same when theuse the food cards in the store. Walk behind and watch. Stores don't bother now to pick out what not suppose to buy on them. Caused a problem and so potato chips.soda . Garbage.
Butchers say can ask for meat bones. Get free veg ,in food distribution places. Soup feeds a lot of people. Take time to make it. No way. We should have been so lucky back in the forties.. The should teach these young people by showing how the immigrants did in the late 80s with the food they had. That was poverty days ,not now.
I am going to quit going on (people here tired of reading) but I may have felt sorry for some years ago here but just seen to much to buy it now.
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Jeanne what you have to understand is most of at least 80% of poor women were raped as kids most often by family members or their family did nothing to stop it or to protest and told the girl nothing at best and to shut up at wost - they learn that love means rape - this is no joke - and so their view of life is very altered and they do not feel they have the power to make their life better because that is what incest and rape does to a girl - they either get family support of therapy and lots of it - take a teen in this winter and learn a lot - your idea of bringing up a child will not work - you have to be open to learn if you are going to make a difference so that at least one teen will not join the give away lines that you see as mis-managed and mis-used.
Remember there is no time to cook - kids are hungry and hungry for attention that comes in the way of mom feeding them regardless how worn out and poor she is - there is no place in these iitchens for anyone to leave a crock pot on for hours with no one there while they go to work so the food has to be instant. A can opened and heated in instant.
I think you are a Christian and someplace the Bible says something about throwing stones - if you have had no husband no love in your life several children with a barley paying job then we can pass judgement on how folks exist - they have had enough pain why add to it when we all have so much - if you think they can do better than visit a family and offer to help and cook for them for a few days. Change does not happen by finding fault - it takes someone seeing a better way and a way that makes them feel respected and worthy.
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I don't think we are talking about the same thing. When the gov. Talking about how thousands of families inUS now are livng under the poverty line which I believe now is over 40 thousand ,which is rediculas as some college grads I know not making that.
Not talking about women raped. 80 pct of so called poor have not been raped. I know 4 women around me. All on welfare. Single.children. Their sex was not rape. More stupidity. I knew their parents they were not raised to be the way they are.
This is what we are catering to. Lazy grownups who know how to work the system .it has now become a popular thing to do. Makes it hard for the ones who lost jobs but want to work.all being thrown in the same group. Needs to be lot more people checking. Separating them out. it has gotten easier now to get on the welfare if you have never gotten a job or able to keep one ,than if you just got laid off .
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Jeanne take a teen girl in and you will learn what the real story is... anyone can look at a book cover it takes reading the book.
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I do agree, it's not helpful to judge. It's easy to look from the outside and criticize the way a person appears to live, but we don't know all the facts, reasons or even how hard the person tries. Poverty has a way of sapping energy, of limiting people's vision.
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I feel such deep sorrow and despair when I hear sentiments of disbelief about the condition of our desperately poor, because I know first hand that they do indeed exist, and are indeed hurting terribly, most often through no fault of their own. It makes no sense to me to let 90 starve to death, or become so sick from malnutrition that they stay sick and unable to function indefinitely, ending in an early death, all because 10 people cheat.
When we were in High School and College, we saw the one or ones who cheated and were awarded diplomas and degrees they most certainly did not earn. It did not change the fact that we earned ours. We were raised to believe that sooner or later the wrong would be caught out and sooner or later we would earn our laurels. If not, we were told, God knows. In the very end, at the time of the Last Judgment, the Good will be justified and the Bad punished.
Well, I am not so certain I buy into that dogma anymore, but it surely turned us out with good attitudes. Visit the Sick, Comfort the Dying, and give food and alms to The Poor, for they are always with Us! Yep. Not a bad way of viewing our human family. I feel gratitude for the way I was raised up, and for the people to saw to that. My love for them increases every passing year. Would I could bring them up from their graves and tell them so!
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I have to stop myself from screaming at the top of my lungs at outrageous nonsensical judgments on the part of Old Men. They should know better.
But then I tell myself to try to calm down and be fair. These men purport to believe that we mammals of the human species are made in the image of God (how egotistical, I think!) and God means every conception to take place, including rapes by fathers and/or brothers that spawn idiots and maniacs, or rapes by the criminally insane, that spawn more of that ilk to fill our prisons. It never seems to occur to them, not once, that perhaps God gave us brains to figure out such like! They truly are convinced that abortion is murder. This, of course, is a perfectly natural result of the genes turned on during puberty in most males of our species; said genes screaming at THEM to go forth and spread their seed in order to make certain they live on ad infinitum throughout the coming generations. So of course they will it to be so that God Himself (of course not Herself!) wants that seed to be successful and bring forth armies of stalwart sons.
So we have in Nebraska this week a 16 year old Foster child who is the victim of that state's new "there must be written consent from a parent for a child to have an abortion" law. This girl is a foster child because her family abused her terribly and the State had to rescue her. The law has removed her from all parental authority. The State is the authority now, not even the foster parents can give such a signature. She begged the court for an abortion when she was only 10 weeks along, saying she had no money to raise a child and wanted to finish High School and be better situated in life before having a family. One court after another refused. Finally, 4 months along in her pregnancy, the state Supreme Court gave her a final no. They claim she is too immature to make the decision to NOT give birth! Too immature! But hey, guys! She is also TOO IMMATURE to raise a child!!!! So what IS she? A baby making machine? And how about HER future????
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Well now things seem to be getting looked into. It's a start long article out inthe paper today.the found stamp program is being abused. It is the title.
In last 10 years over 100 BILLION has been spent. When a card is issued it only has a number on the front, the person then gives it a PIN number. This is never questioned when using.No I.d can be asked for.it is easy for a person to trade the card along with pin number for money a 300 dollar card can sell for half .this money is then purchasing drugs. A buyer can then go to a stoe buy and sell food to another for money.no I.D needed. They can be bought all over in any town. Years ago when they. used stamps I even got some just to see how easy.( did finely give to some one to use)
Well now Gov. Finely figured this out I think. They are thinking to have a persons drivers
lic.No. Stamped on card or SSNo. Any kind of photo I.d which has to be shown same time as the card. This will not stop all the cheating as there are some that will go with a person into a store with them and help them shop and then use their card . You will catch them doing this in large cities. They can then go to the food distribution places and pick up their food the need. 8 churches around give lunch every day.
Soon that will be plentiful at thanksgiving and Christmas.. Last year I saw one young single women with 2 children pickup 3 food baskets last TG. And Christmas with full dinner fixing . Turkey and all .did not cook a thing.
Country could wipe out this going hungry by the millions just by taking a look at how it can be done. The food is there . Twice needed is thrown away. Set up a way that makes sense. Not just a easy way. People can be poor. Uneducated but learn really fast how to work a poor system.
Found in Illinois alone and paid out ,millions last ten years in Chicago area Social security payments under people name that had been dead for years. One family of3 brothers living on their dead fathers payments.
Just a sample as to how much cheating goes on. It is sad for all the honest people. They are the ones that will lose out soon . Country running out of money. Owing more to china than we are worth. Maybe we should let them come up with a better welfare system for us. Bet the dont spend as much on theirs without checking.
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Ugly hearts can find all sorts of justification.
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The percentage of fraud, considering how much money is involved, is not that high - of course, dollar wise it is, but percentage is not so high.
I have always wondered how people know someone is using their food card and what exactly they are buying with that card and what they are paying cash for - I have never, in all my years including when I had 3 children and shopped almost daily (or so it seemed), seen anyone using a card (or food stamps when they were used) in the grocery store. Maybe I'm not observant enough.?
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I see it all the time. Often right in front of me in the grocery store. They are strictly prohibited from buying items such as cigarettes, and if they try to purchase something on the no list, somehow our Giant's computer OR maybe it is the clerk, I am not close enough to be sure, but the item gets put aside and they cannot have it. All the ones I have seen seem to be very embarassed about using food stamps. Our local paper says the usage shot up hugely after the recession started causing so many people to lose their jobs. I know I had to go to work, for free, for my son-in-law because he could not get work. He had to let go the bookkeeper/office manager he had had for 19 years, and have me come in in her place. As I say, I not only get not one penny of pay, but I have loaned him a large sum of money to keep the company going. Well, a large sum FOR ME. Both he and I hope he can pay me back. He had to lay off, at first all but 2 of the men; finally those two as well, and we left the office he had been in for 25 years and moved into his home. My daughter's home. Lots of these people had to go on food stamps to survive. As soon as they found work again, they went off them. Our newspaper, THE CAPITAL here in Annapolis, Maryland, as well as The Washington Post, report the system working, for the most part, very well indeed. Sure, one worm can seem to spoil the whole apple; but common sense tells us that just ain't so. Those who try to "get away with something" have been with us since the beginning of time. They cannot, must not, put a halt to our duty to the suffering amongst us.
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Food Banks.The good ones know that when you are homeless, living in a tent in the woods or a car, that canned goods are the only things that work.. Fruit is good, but does not fill the children up.. There are many many people desperate for a permanent job..
I owned a retail store in a small shopping center.We had a lot of part time workers and even the full time for the tiny stores, that mighthave three employees did not pay more than minimum wage and no health. I knew two diferent people in that center, that lost the little they had ( tiny trailers) and their jobs because they got infected teeth and ended up going to emergency room, since dentists do not work on the poor.. Both times, they lost too much time from work and the employers really did not have much choice. If you only have two or three employees and you run a store, it is really impossible to hold a job for someone.. I help with the teens here and I come home and cry sometimes because they dont even have sanitary pads or the privacy to use them , when the whole family lives in a car. We are trying to prove the middle schools and high schools with all of the standard items others take for granted. Soap,, toothpaste and brush, sanitary pads, shampoo,, etc etc. Think of being a teen and having literally nothing, but you still struggle and come to school every single day.
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You're telling it like it is, Steph.
No work, no pay. No pay, no home.
No car home, pretty soon. No money for the insurance, you see.
No insurance, car impounded.
Family living in the woods or under an overpass, unless they can get in a shelter.
But shelters full to overflowing. Long lists.
How do you get a job when you have no place to live and no place to shower and no soap to shower with?
And you stink.
And yes, no diapers for the babies. No formula. No Kotex for the women and girls.
And how to you come up out of this?
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Since 2009 the federal SNAP have spent 45 .2 billion into that program. Having the benefits for a average family of four go from getting $588 a month to $668 . Should be no hungry people out there if using them right. I see working people with larger families not spending that much.
Gigerets and alcohol can't buy. Household goods no. Has to be eatable goods only. Some baby products can be bought although truckloads of diapers,and soaps are available at most distribution centers. Food banks. Church centers. Right now in malls .around this town
Winter clothing is already being collected. Over 800 coat. jackets. sitting at one church already. The mall have collected thousands.
This goes on to say that now because of the laziness of our society, to many people now willing to let gov.provide a meager living for them . It all now comes to down to.laziness,improper education,and bad parenting
Most people see America as what is going on around their own lives. They take the rest from the shows on T.V and the articles printed in papers showing the worse things.
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Blame the victim - a useful approach
As Doug Coupland says, Blame is just a lazy person's way of making sense of chaos. Newspapers need chaos for a story.
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I had never heard that quote before, but have realized for simply years and years now that a certain small portion of every culture, be it ours or any other from first, second or third world civilizations, is quite loudly vocal against their numbers who are struggling to cope with life. This Anger, and a deep well of inner anger it is, is, of course, spawned by fear. Their unspoken fear is of having to give up a sliver of the life situation they have managed to carve out for themselves and their own blood line. They are obsessed with a constant paranoia of having it taken away from them.
Altruism has been discovered to exist in almost all sectors and species of our animal world. So has fear of "others."
I do think a lot of this is innate. You notice from toddlers upwards who seems disposed to share and who is very vocally opposed to adopting any such notion. One two year old little darling in my own family has not been treating us to the famous "terrible two" "No!" Instead he has learned to say: "Mine! Mine! Mine!" Needless to say, his parents are working hard to disabuse him of continuing this attitude.
But "give" and "share" are indeed important concepts, and I feel thankful most of us, especially most Americans, do feel compelled to reach out and give assistance.
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Error rate for food stamps is about 3%, fraud rate is somewhere around 1.3%, according to what I have read in several sources. A good share of the fraud is conducted by the merchants, not the recipients.
What is, is - we have hungry people. It's a fact that we have a lot of hungry people in this country, especially children and elders. Families with children and elders make up most of the food stamp groups. Many of the adults are the "working poor" which means they have jobs, but they don't earn enough to feed their families well and pay all their bills. I remember working when my children were young, feeling there wasn't enough time in a day to prepare meals, do laundry, clean the house, help the children with their homework, so I had to resort to "convenience foods" now and then. And I had good transportation, a working spouse, a home with affordable rent, a washer and dryer.
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I wonder about elderly people, especially in large towns or cities, who have no family nearby. I can understand, even if they live in "safe areas", if they don't feel stable when walking, they may be afraid to go out to shop. They may not have cars, many large towns don't have good public transportation, even if they did, how much can one carry on the bus? I fear there are many such people that few people know about.
All of us here probably are people who know how to call the county, or find agencies who could help us, but i fear there are people who don't know how to get information to help them.
Jean
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I am sure that larger cities have a lot of items. I live in a rural county in a smaller community, where a car is a necessity to get anywhere. We have all sorts of charities, but getting the people to them is hard..
Many of the women are terrified of state charities. They are convinced their children may be taken away. Not true, but there it is. In the state of Florida, you can only get all types of assistance if you have minor children.. Singles and elderly are at risk..
and no, I did not read about them in the newspaper, I saw them when I had several retail stores and held their hands. I had people living behind one of my stores in the woods.She was a second generation woods person,, no birth certificate, no schooling,, her Mother was mentally ill and kept her a secret.. She was raped and then run down by the car of the rapists. She came to me, all bloody and wounded. I took her to the emergency room and saw them humiliate her over and over. I just came home and cried and cried. She was dirty, smelled, but she loved to read and I gave her a book a week from my store, she always brought them back and thanked me. She found a small dog wandering and she would feed him before she would eat herself.. She has no hope.. who would employ her. no skills. I think of her when people talk of benefits.
My younger daughter in law works for the state in the get them back to work department./ She tries to get them retrained, etc. but she says herself that t here are some people who simply are too low down mentally to work..
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We should all try to see the new documentary out called INEQUALITY FOR ALL.
Me, I hate going out to the movies anymore, so I plan to purchase the DVD as soon as it becomes available.
This film has been put together by an expert on the subject.
Some of his credentials:
Secretary of Labor of the United States of America
An academic
An author of books
A candidate for governor of a state
An advisor to presidents
Robert Reich knows what he is talking about and has access to all of the statistics kept by all of the various government agencies.
Remember: INEQUALITY FOR ALL
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I will wait for net flix..our local movie house does not do documentaries.
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I saw a 2 page spread of a photograph in the October 14, 2013 issue of THE NEW YORKER that made me feel like throwing up.
It is titled: AT HOME WITH THE ONE PER CENT
And it shows a real fireplace in the Wyoming ranch home of F.F. Formica (the real name of a bazillionaire)
Seems he loves fireplaces. So he built one a mile long and he keeps it going 24/7. It has its own fire department and a motorized crane that goes up and down to keep it fed. It burns up a hundred square miles of forest per year.
You have to see it to believe it!
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/david_letterman/search?contributorName=david%20letterman
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well since we cannot do a thing about it - we cannot even get Congress to establish a tax system that includes the fair share of these Billionaires - we could waste a lot of our own mental health being outraged with no one to affect other than others in our own circumstance so, the only choice I see is we can look at the salaries that are helping worker's families, whose were paid to quarry the stone, ship it, build this useless monstrosity, build the fire engine and crane, and now those who maintain this monument to what someone can do and does because he can.
Some monuments keep burning an everlasting flame using Gas as the heat source that since, we think there is underground gas that will last forever we are not conserving its use where as, the Forest we can see and we know it is slowly disappearing - no fracking of forests as we frack for oil - maybe seeing forests disappear and being outraged over wasted use we can see how what oil and gas we do not see and we use with abandon is disappearing.
Well I sure hope that the room where this monument is located holds some great parties to give many more a salary providing and serving food, setting up and clearing this room - looks like it is in the blood of many who need huge spectacles - this Teutonic nature for huge spectacles helped to raise Germany out of its stupor that led it to reversing the numbing inflation after WWI when whole streets were set aside at night as the sleeping location for hundreds of the homeless.
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I think it must be just a spoof. There is no disclaimer, at least none in the magazine that I could find. But my brain tells me it is just a spoof, as the reality would be far beyond what anyone could yearn for.
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Could be - looked more like a drawing than a photo - a piece to get the blood boiling maybe??!!??
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If it is a spoof, I cannot imagine the point of it. And especially in a magazine as old and staid as The New Yorker. Their cartoons have always been up to the moment and hilarious (consider especially the cover of this "Money" issue with all the old men in suits in the heavy gilt laid frames on the wall and the final one of a company CEO who is very young and wearing jeans and a hoodie (with the hood off the head)!), but I have not known them to kid around otherwise except in a veddy English tongue in cheek manner. This fireplace thing, as I say, I just don't see the point. There are enough excesses in the 1% without making up this sort of thing. I point to GOLD bathroom faucets. Now those are REAL! And when I think of the money spent on SHOW OFF excess such as that which should be going to feed hungry children instead, I seeth! Yes! I seeth!
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do you think it is showing the disregard for reasonable size and use of resources - if you think of the forest as representing the world's resources including the energy of those who work to support the heat that is throw back onto the earth but within the controlled space and design of the work space and the fire engine and crane are protecting the energy, both resources and workers to stay within the confined space within the rules of that space that they zillionaires have established while the workers and resources give off this heat and not get out of control to benefit the space owned by the nillionaires. It is as if the workers like the resources are fuel for their consumption - they get used up and do not benefit from the glow or their dissipating energy.
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mark
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http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/10/house-stenographer-yanked-from-chamber-ranting-about-god-freemasons/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/16/stenographer-shouting-on-house-floor_n_4112145.html
Just in case those of you not close to the infamous beltway, which I am, missed this item from the time of the vote in the house last night. Terribly sad, but indicative of our times, I fear.
I very much fear.
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I knew something had happened and a woman was doing the shouting, but no idea what she was saying.
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I am downright allergic to the notion of attempting to foist the perspective I myself arrive at, from the historical events of a long lifetime and gut instincts, on ANY other human being, including my dear friends in here. But if you will take it as a given that I make no attempt to indoctrinate you (as if I were dumb enough to believe I could!), I will share what I believe to be true:
All these long years past I have heard that tune played about Freemasons and the lack of our countrymen taking Jesus Christ as their Savior. And on and on and on, and I am sure each of you has heard the same litany.
It is a fact that George Washington and a lot of others from our earliest days as the United States of America were Masons. As a disclaimer I feel bound to make here, my own father was a Mason. Also a Mason, as that was my maiden name.
That being said, I do not believe there has ever been a conspiracy of any shape or size whatsoever to have the Masons run this nation or to force their countrymen or their government either to repudiate or accept Jesus Christ. On the contrary, despite the Masons incorporating The Bible into their rituals and each Mason declaring a reverence for the Almighty, I have never seen or heard, except from these conspiracy theorists, the slightest indication that members of this society wish their group, as a group, to cause so much as the tiniest influence upon our communities. Men invited to join the Masons do tend to have special individual qualities which set them apart from the pack, as it were. They do tend to become leaders in every section of life and in every way. But this is due entirely to their own abilities and efforts, and has nothing to do with their membership.
I get tired of hearing this so very old lying attempt to smear the Masons and alarm the public.
As for the accusation that the nation is crumbling because it has not declared Jesus to be its Saviour, the fundamentalist Christians who preach this (and endless war!) and cause a huge rift in Christianity, are the mirror twins of the Islamic fundamentalists who preach the exact same thing, albeit with a different prophet! Each of these frenetic groups is dividing the peoples of their section of the world into warring factions that hate one another! Each wants to see the others perish, and are willing to lend a hand to that end; all the while certain God is on their side.
My personal prayer is God save us from the fundamentalist fanatics of every creed!
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I don't know much about the Masons (my dad was one), but what I fear is all those idiot Tea Party types who voted to keep the government shut down and to let the U.S. go into default on its obligations. Thank goodness, the Republican House representative from my Southern California area voted with the Democrats to accept the Reid/McConnell agreement to end this scary nonsense.
That women who shouted out in the House sounded confused. As if perhaps she needs some psychiatric help. I believe all those tea party jerks must also need psychiatric help.
Marj
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She was a stenographer working on the House floor that evening of the big vote. And they say she got up ever so calmly and went over and took up the microphone and no one stopped her because all thought it was something legitimate. And then she began ranting about a house divided and the Freemasons controlling the country ever since our beginnings and how we need to accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/18/house-stenographer-speaks-out-about-bizarre-floor-outburst-the-holy-spirit-has-been-waking-me-up-to-deliver-a-message/
As you can see, her husband calls her a "woman of God" and says he is proud of her. She says the Holy Spirit had been telling her to do this for some time now. I am certain she is a Tea Party sympathizer.
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Yesterday afternoon Wayne Gilchrest sat in his office in a place called Knocks Folly on Maryland's Eastern Shore and watched a fox run across a field.
That's not a bad way to spend an autumn afternoon; gazing out the window of an 18th-century house in Kent County, resting after a day spent preparing for the arrival of schoolchildren eager to plant trees or paddle a canoe on the Sassafras River.
Gilchrest, a moderate Republican who was put out to pasture by a very conservative one in the 2008 primary, teaches kids about the environment. They come on field trips from schools in Kent, Queen Anne's and Cecil counties to the nonprofit Sassafras Environmental Education Center. They learn about wetlands and farming, about wildlife and the importance of forests.
Gilchrest loves the work, though the kids take their toll.
"Some days," he says, "at the end of the day, I feel 150 years old."
Gilchrest is 67. He was a schoolteacher once upon a time, a Vietnam veteran, too. He went to Congress in 1990, representing the 1st District [MD]. He was in the House of Representatives for 18 years. He served through the government shutdown of the Clinton era, after a wave of conservatives won House seats and Newt Gingrich became speaker.
"It was a more congenial time," Gilchrest says of his first few years in the House. "We didn't have the bitterness you see today. I used to sit near Ron Paul, who was conservative on social issues but an expert on foreign policy; I loved to talk to him. And I sat near Walter Jones, who was a very conservative representative from North Carolina; he didn't like [George W.] Bush because he didn't think he was a good Christian. We had great conversations.
"There wasn't any animosity. It was Tom DeLay and Dick Armey who brought that to Washington."
Armey and DeLay, Texas Republicans, served consecutively as House majority leaders. They were in the vanguard of the Republican revolution of 1994.
"They talked about the Democrats being the enemy," says Gilchrest. "That's when that started."
He's talking about bitterness, animosity and politicians so ideologically driven that give-and-take seemed impossible. Rhetoric became harsher, views more strident, negative and personal.
By then, Gilchrest was accused of being a Republican in name only. "Moderate Republican" became an oxymoron.Andy Harris, a Republican state senator well to the right of Gilchrest ideologically, was able to unseat him in 2008, the year of Barack Obama.
Since then, Gilchrest has watched Washington from across the Chesapeake Bay. For three years, he's been running the outdoor classes at Sassafras, teaching "everything from photosynthesis to phytoplankton to bald eagles."
It sounds like the great escape, but Gilchrest still pays attention to what happens on Capitol Hill.
"Today," he says, "no one seems to care about getting good information and making good public policy. That's what you're supposed to do in Congress — work with people, listen to them, find out the good information, evaluate the facts and pursue good policy. And you do it with integrity. You debate it. You talk. You negotiate.
"And the bottom line is, you believe in the republic. You believe in our system."
You don't try to tear it down by bringing it to the brink of disaster.
"After you debate, you vote, and the majority rules. ... This tea party is something different than what I say."
Certainly Gilchrest encountered extreme ideologues in his travel — particularly, he says, when he campaigned or attended town halls in northern Baltimore and Harford counties.
"I found a lot of people vicious and vindictive," he says, "about guns, God, gays, abortion, the war in Iraq. They weren't interested in information. They got attached to an ideology."
Gilchrest speaks there of the so-called culture wars. Now, with the tea party faction in the House, there's a different force at work.
"And I don't know what to make of it exactly," he says. "It's kind of hard to wrap your head around the tea party — they seem to be about taking the government down. They seem to be an offshoot of the conservative movement of Dick Armey, who has a bizarre obsession with almost every form of government assistance, including Legal Aid for the poor."
(After serving in Congress, Armey became the leader of a tea party-affiliated group.)
Gilchrest was not in Congress when the Affordable Care Act came up for a vote. That was three years ago, and yet the measure that has come to be known as Obamacare has been constantly attacked by the right — to the point of shutting down the government and risking default on the nation's debts.
"There's a bizarre mix of people opposed to [the ACA]," says Gilchrest. "But why? Where's the empathy? Where's the conscience? 'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.' Where's that? 'Love thy neighbor.' Where's that? I think we have a political system infiltrated by sociopaths."
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Amen. fundamentalists are a curse on humanity..
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Double Amen from here in Australia! I did watch a program about your impasse, but I was no wiser when it finished :)
I'm certain you'd find some(no make that all) of our Pollies just as baffling and clueless.
Just for starters, our Liberal Party are the far right Conservatives. The 'liberal' party should be Labor, but both parties are on a race to the bottom.
One of our Politicians, Clive Palmer a billionaire(we think, he says he doesn't know how much money he has) wondered aloud what he could spend his money on. Then he plumped for building a replica of the Titanic in all its luxury and excess.
God forgive me, I wanted to murder him. So many dying and sick children. So many struggling, needy charities, and he builds the Titanic.
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Good grief! The man's skiting about a cameo role in Titanic2. What about Policies? Action? I rest my case!
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A basic primer in what happened here, Octavia:
Several years ago the Senate and the House of Representatives passed a new health bill, correctly titled the Affordable Care Act, and the President signed it into law.
Presidents had been trying for over 100 years to pass a national law regarding health care. Republicans (Nixon, for one) and Democrats had tried. And failed. Loud voices always scream above the pack: "Socialism! Socialism! Socialism!"
Me, I wanted a single payer law, very like Canada's. What we got as a compromise was about as far from Socialism as you can get: we got a Republican bill based upon a plan originally developed by a Republican think tank and implemented first by a Republican governor, later a presidential candidate, Mitt Romney in Massachusetts. The plan is working just great in that state.
But there is a group of the far right wing that hates Obama so much it makes them sick to their stomachs and keeps them awake nights. So they quickly declared this plan "Obamacare" and have done everything they can to bring it down. By the way, the government of the U.S. does not pay the medical bills. Each state has an "exchange" made up of all the insurance companies licensed to be in the business of selling health insurance in that state. Only now, instead of the public not knowing which plan gives what, they have to publicly list their coverage and premiums. This public scrutiny has caused them to bring down their rates, as had the promise of a larger pool of insured. And every American has to choose one of these policies, just as every driving American has to have automobile insurance. Americans already covered may continue the coverage they have now. This exchange is for those not presently insured.
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So it came time to raise the debt ceiling so that our government could legally pay out the money owed because our congress had already approved the spending. We have been raising this ceiling ever since we became a nation. Inflation, you know! The $2,600.00 per year which my first husband was earning in 1949 and which fed, housed and clothed our little family back then, has to be at least $50,000.00 these days!
So a small group of said far right refused to do this. Let the country default on its bills! Let the government shut down and almost a million people not get their paychecks because they would not vote to fund the government! No matter!
They held this gun to President Obama's head and said that unless he agreed to sign their bill to defund the Affordable Care Act (the funding being administrative) and therefore scuttle it completely, they would not vote funds to run the government and pay this nation's debts. It was blackmail, pure and simple, and the like has never been seen or heard in our history!
Obama did not cave in to their demands. They had to cave at the very last moment, and after the government had been shut down for over 2 weeks.
Now they claim the whole shebang is all Obama's fault! Blows my mind, it does. Pure undiluted MOXIE!
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I gather Cruz yesterday feels that this is the only objective the republicans should have. How sad and more important how stupid..
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Good summary, MaryPage!
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Thank you, Jean. I was attempting, of course, to tell a citizen of a foreign country (we love Our Aussies!), without boring her to death, what the matter boils down to.
Octavia, you may well wonder why these few Tea Party zealots have a following. And the answer is that these elected officials go home to their districts and get up on their stumps at rallies and tell the voters outright lies. "Obamacare is hurting millions of people." Hasn't hurt a single person. "Obamacare is runaway Socialism." Obamacare is pure Capitalism. All health care policies are purchased by individuals (and families) from profit making or coop type ("mutual") insurance companies. Every insurance company licensed to do business in any state can sell their policies through this "Affordable Care Act" called Obamacare.
They get apoplectic over the thought that a black man is President of their country. Pure and Simple. Many, many members of their own political party do not share their view. These Tea Party Republicans do not want Barack Obama to go down in the history books as a great president who brought Health Care to the 47 million uninsured in our country. They want to do everything they can to insure that his presidency fails. Seriously. It is sickening behavior.
We have rabid Obama haters on the radio airwaves and on Fox Television, as well. They call our president unfit for office, an alien, a Muslim, a citizen of Kenya in Africa, and want to Impeach him!
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Octavia, an example. And I am being totally serious here, I have seen this clip on our television news several times. It really happened and it is truly typical of what they are saying and thinking. Did I REALLY say thinking?
A member of congress was ranting to a reporter about Obama not being qualified under our constitution to be president because he was born in Kenya (he was born in Hawaii, one of our 50 states), and he went on and on. When he took a breath, the reporter asked him how come the records in the Hawaiian newspaper files showed his birth announcement under "Records." That means, I am sure you know, that the listings come from the city or county directly to the newspaper for printing. Depending upon the population size of the area the paper serves, the local government may provide these statistics on a weekly or monthly basis. I know: I used to work for a newspaper and pick them up at the County Building once a month eons ago. They are OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT records. Marriages, Deaths and Births. So this reporter wanted this congressman to explain how this happened way back when.
And the congressman, I swear, said they probably telegraphed the information to the papers from Kenya.
Like they KNEW he would be president from his birth! A colossal conspiracy!
Yes, Octavia, people believe this ****!
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I don't understand what would be the wrong if he was born in Kenya. If his mother is American she just has to register his birth with the US Embassy. John McCain was born in Panama. Also, what if he was a Muslim -- don't we have freedom of religion here. Two members of House are Muslims. Oh well, there is no use trying to understand these folks.
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You are right, on both points. I agree. Truth is Truth.
These folks don't want to hear real facts. They do not want to consider or apply the laws as they actually exist.
This is the same bunch that has wanted our nation to be a Muslim-hating nation ever since 9/11. They want us to go to war and wipe out the entire world of any Muslims. I don't think they ever connect the dots about anything, or read the real news. There are at least three million citizens of these United States who are Muslims, perhaps more. The rabid fundamentalist Muslims who brought about 9/11 are at war with main stream Muslims throughout the Middle East. There they are killing people with bombings almost on a daily basis, trying to turn their religion back to the Middle Ages. The devout citizens of those states fear them just as much as we do.
But Tea Party folks don't dwell on the facts on the ground. I sense they love the adrenalin rush they get from hating and shouting hateful slogans. Their swaggering postures make them feel powerful and righteous.
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I believe the issue of where a person was born...and Obama was born in the US...in the state of Hawaii, which some seem to have a problem understanding.
The issue with McCain and being a "natural-born American" was that his father was a US Naval officer and John was born on a US military base in the Canal Zone. I think most everyone would agree that's a US citizen from birth.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html?_r=0
I know Schwartzenegger (or however that is spelled...you know who I mean, I'm sure) is not a possible President because he was born in Germany/Austria or wherever...not in the US or its territories or military bases, etc.
I can only conclude that people make us issues when they have no real issues to use to oppose this or that candidate for whatever office. I've seen it in local politics, and it's obvious in national as well. Remember when a fellow was dogged to death because he'd sought mental health help. Good grief....getting help was a terrible thing, according to the opposition...while we have, obviously to me anyway, a lot of present politicians who could use some serious mental health help...esp. in regards to integrity and honesty in what they say.
I've looked it up and it was Thomas Eagleton, seeking help for depression....and then columnist Jack Anderson spread false information about him. See:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/frenzy/eagleton.htm
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I saw something on Facebook about the woman in Texas who led the filibuster and I believe is running for Governor or planning to. It was some sort of group that plans on doing nothing but putting her down. How Weird..
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Same methodology they have been using with every ounce of energy in them against Obama these past years. Fortunately, they are beginning to look ridiculous rather than serious to the general public. At first, folks thought if they said it right up front, it must be gospel truth. Now people are beginning to see it ain't necessarily so.
I saw a clip on last night's news where a Fox talking head was telling the nation that thousands of people have signed up for Obamacare and promptly lost their life savings!
Oh, and one where Michelle Bachman is asserting at the very top of her lungs that millions will DIE under Obamacare! Yes! Yes! Millions of babies and children and old people will DIE!
Incredible the lies people will tell and the lies that will be believed!
Having grown up with and lived with, within and without myself, a sense of what truth and honor and respect and responsibility really, really mean, this new normal makes my mouth drop open down to my toes and my mind feel as though it might just explode at any moment.
Apparently the litany is this: ANY means is alright and justified to bring about the desired end.
Our grandparents, parents, teachers and preachers worked so very hard to teach us the exact opposite!
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Isn't life strange? We accept without question that our politicians are born in other countries. Our present PM Tony Abbott was born in England I think, and a former PM Julia Gillard came from Wales.
Christine Kneally(sp?) the former Premier of NSW was from Canada, and had a strong Canadian accent.. Perhaps the difference is that these are all Commonwealth countries. Horses for courses.
Someone once argued with me that Tasmanians weren't Australians. Just because there's a strait between the mainland and Tasmania, doesn't change the nationality.Like your Hawaii.
In one of the houses of parliament there is a Muslim, but perhaps we would balk at the office of PM being taken by someone outside the Commonwealth. Curious!
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Has anyone been listening about the auction of the Kennedy's goods this week. It sounds so sad to me. I would rather have seen them donated to museums any where in the world. Was Jackie's nightgowns. Johns clothing. Even the window that Oswald shot from. His wedding ring. All bringing thousands. Not heard where the money is going to.
My battery is running out in 4 minutes.
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Well, I guess if SOMEONE wants that kind of stuff, more power to them! No doubt the monies realized will go to a good cause.
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I don't know who this guy is, but he's certainly right on the issue of men having no say- including voting - on abortion issues.......
http://flcourier.com/2012/08/23/random-thoughts-of-a-free-black-mind-v-150/
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But then isn't that the point - those who still consider women inferior and subordinate to their husbands and therefore, all men so women must be barred from decisions that affect the man's sperm.
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You are so right, Barbara, and Thank You, Jean!
Warms the cockles of my heart, it does, to read that. I don't know anything about him. Have never heard of him. But obviously he is black and a lawyer.
Love his insight into rape causing all those ten of thousands of slave women to get pregnant.
I have sent this out to my 5 daughters.
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No time to read it this am, too many workman, but will ..
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I don't know about you, but I am thrilled to DEATH the Federal Judge has found the new Texas abortion and clinic laws to be unconstitutional.
What scares me about all these frantic new Tea Party activities is this: on the one hand, they are screaming at the top of their lungs that everything but what THEY propose is "unconstitutional" and not what our forefathers wished.
Then they pass all sorts of restrictive, anti-freedom, anti-women, anti-poor laws that are later found to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
And they close down the government and set the economy back big time and it all costs us TWENTY-FOUR BILLION DOLLARS and I wonder. I wonder and the sick sinking feeling in my stomach grows bigger and bigger.
Do these people use patriotism as a false front? Are they really and truly trying to ruin the United States of America?
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I'm tired of "less government," but those who say that have no problem trying to pass legislation to restrict people's freedoms. Also, "less government" means more contractors doing what the govt did....but $$$$ to political friends and less accountability.
Where would be be without gov't laws on pollution? Like China, where the pollution is so bad they all wear masks....as if that'll help. Our rivers and air would be far worse than they are, I fear.
Jane
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I don't know about you, but I am thrilled to DEATH the Federal Judge has found the new Texas abortion and clinic laws to be unconstitutional.
Problem it is only the part that says a doctor has to have a relationship with a hospital within 30 miles - in this state we have areas where there is no medical within 50 or 60 miles plus one other aspect that i forget but neither was changing the mandate that will end up closing over three quarter of the clinics plus the little that was deemed unconstitutional is already countered at another higher court by Greg Abbott our Attorney General who is campaigning to replace Rick Perry the governor, which puts him up against Wendy Davis.
As to the cost of the government shut down - all it was is a free campaign effort with national free press for Ted Cruz. And as long as we do not complain asking the media to bring to our attention the issues rather than the personalities this gaming of the system will continue at our expense. I started with a remark on face book to The American something or other that they promptly removed - which says to me it is a good way for both sides to rake in dollars by being able to condem the other side.
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It seems I cannot pick up anything at all to read these days without becoming more and more convinced the Tea Party movement is being managed behind the scenes by puppet masters who want to sabotage and bring down our government.
This morning at breakfast I began to read the October 28 issue of THE NEW YORKER. In The Talk of The Town it tells how IRS employees have lost time on the job and pay because of being furloughed by the "sequester." Like most of us, they live from paycheck to paycheck, and lost money in any month puts them behind on their bills. Also, the IRS workforce has been severely cut for some time now, yet we have a burgeoning population and ever more and more tax returns to process. The end result of this, plus the 16 days when 90% of IRS employees were made to stay at home without pay due to the shutdown, is that the tax agency is so far behind that there is almost no time for audits and prosecutions. It is easier for people, especially the rich, to cheat on their taxes. The United States of America is missing out on BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars in revenue.
Yes, Ladies; I feel we are being deliberately squeezed to death in every possible diabolical way. I am so glad I am nearly 85 and may not see the end of my country as I have known it.
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This article by Mary Sanchez was in our paper today...Ted Cruz and the Tea Party's next possible goal...
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/25/4576705/imploding-immigration-reform-is.html
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I remember reading years and years ago how those with their thumb on the population that needs their weekly salary can easily keep them in place by allowing just enough money to flow so folks do not loose hope and think they can be the one to make it so they do not band together into an uprising. This was the line of thinking for factory workers before Unions made the inroads they did immediatly after WWII - well it looks like the Koch brothers have figured out how to rig the economic system and they have the Heritage Foundation interpreting the Constitution and the Supreme Court in their hip pockets.
They were even able to squash Occupy Wall Street and blame it on the open way it was orgainzed rather than the traditional way from top down with strong leadership - however, NOTHING is being blamed on those who harassed them and arranged for the police to break up any group organizing any place in this nation.
Between the break up of citizens who could loudly register protest and now we learn of the intensity of the surveillance and jails bulging (please look and see where the owners and profiteers of private jails live) and except we do not have access to a Siberian Provence can you say we are that much different than the Soviet Union before Glasnost.
The youth traditionally has been any nations hope of rebellion and with the police now a virtual attack squad we are in deep do do - Washington is not going to get us out of this - what is amazing is how the young without experiencing the past knew it was all wrong and banded together as they did for the Occupy movement.
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Have you ever considered the fact John Boehner is 2 heartbeats away from being PRESIDENT of these United States?
I mean, I know this is Halloween season, but this thought is scarier than all that!
I believe the reason Boehner will do ANYthing to keep his spot as Speaker is he holds out hope someone will do something (s) to make him President! Deed I do!
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Oh MaryPage, now you are causing me to have nightmares.
That horrid fake tan smoker who will literally do anything to stay important. I consider him a total disgrace..pandering to both sides at once.
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I finally finished the Alice Roosevelt Longworth bio. It took me quite a long time, but it was very interesting.
Two passages fit in this discussion. One is about TR at Harvard. His ungraduate thesis was - are you ready for this - "The Practicality of Equalizing Men and Women Before the Law"!!! " It considered the topic of women's rights, including property ownership, and argued that women ought to keep their birth names upon marrying." !!! You go TR! (Alice didn't take her father's advice on that issue.)
The second passage is a quote from the New Yorker in the mid-20s "....an invitation to the Longworths is more prized by the discriminating than an invitation to the White House............Heavy politics are played at the Longworth house and Alice sits in.....She knows men, measures and motives; has an understanding grasp of their changes......It is too bad for the Roosevelt political dynasty that Alice wasn't a boy. She is the smartest Roosevelt there is left - the old Colonel's daughter in more ways than one. She has a quick, inquiring, original and penetrating mind especially equipped to cope with political situations for which she has an instinctive liking."
Apparently that was the opinion of many throughout her life until her death in 1980. She was friends with many names you would know: the Alsops, John. L. Lewis, the whole Kennedy clan, supported Jackie's marriage to Onassis, Buckminister Fuller, all the presidents and their families from FDR to the Fords, and people in their administrations, interestingly especially Nixon from his time as vp to his resignation, reporters, Ruth McCormick, Kay Graham.
She was invited to all the White House weddings and many state dinners into the Ford administration. Her last one was when Queen E visited the Fords, " they exchanged pleasantries about the diamond-rimmed purse that Mrs L. carried.....a wedding gift from King Edward VII in 1906........ When dinner was over.....a WH employee tapped (her escort) on the shoulder . 'We have someone who worked in the WH when Mrs Longworth lived here.' Hearing this Alice turned to greet a tall, distinguished, silver-haired African-American man who asked if she remembered him. She did. (There was many comments about her phenomenal memory. ) They launched into tales of WH life....she responded to his laughter with peals of her own. When they were through, he inquired gravely if he might escort her to her car. She gave him her elbow, and the two walked slowly away. That was her last visit to the White House." Isn't that a lovely scene?
Jean
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OhJean, Thanks for the stories. I always have admired Alice and will look for the book. I have a copy of her famous pillow.. " If you have nothing nice to say about anyone, come sit by me"..
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The author of the Alice bio is Stacy Cordery.
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not woman oriented, but if you want to see a Presidents house that contains the joy of a man.. Teddy Roosevelts house.. Sagamore Hill is a wonderful wonderful house. I would live in it in a minute.
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I have often thought that, Steph, and I have never been there. Lucky YOU to have seen it!
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Beautiful setting, beautiful house that is designed for play and joy.. Teddys pride and joy of course was Alice, all he had left from his first marriage and I gather much spoiled and loved..
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Barbara was not able to vote yesterday. She wrote about it in another forum. I am hoping she will come in here and tell us about it. Seems her voter registration did not show her middle name and her driver's license ID does. Ergo: it was not the same person! I think she should raise hell all over the place!
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So do I. Seems to me that Texas is really trying to exclude voters..
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
They are working every possible angle to exclude WOMEN voters. This is a war between the establishment men and every woman, even those sad little door mats who support them.
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Reposted fron Barb's comment in The Library:
Oh, Barb, that is ludicrous! I'll bet women are 80% or more of the people who have such a discrepancy! And how many elections have women influenced in the last dcade??? Ummmhumm. The Right doesn't want us voting!
I am getting so frustrated and angry at all this lunacy! My DH and i were saying last night that society pretends to want civility, kindness, people listening to each other, no bullying. BUT in reality many in society love the bully ala Chris Christie! They love the fights in hockey games, they want Obama to bomb Syria, the chair of the House Intelligence Comm refuses an invitation to talk with Obama!!! What jerk refuses an invitation to the White House!?! They lie even knowing they will be fact-checked. I'm sick of all of it. They all act like immature 15 yr olds! What happened to the adults???
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Yes! Rand Paul was caught, not once but many times, plagiarizing other speeches and writings direct and verbatim. His response has been to attack those who outed him!
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Yep, that is the idea Steph - Austin is a hot bed of liberal thinking and this Republican run state tries in every way known to man how to dilute the power of an educated, (Home of UT) and liberal city but they sure want our tax dollars as one of the high income earning population in this town. Ah so - I am pissed and why should I have to take my time to go to the county voting office and arrange for a special ID - if they were being fair when they altered the law they should have had the voting registrations researched and a proper name should have been sent out - it is not like the license to drive department is located across town and with computers it could all have been done in a flash. I am too pissed right now to do anything - I think a couple of well aimed complaint letters need to be created and sent while I am still ranting and raving.
My license used as photo ID - we used to be able to even use our electric bill but no more since there are no photos on our electric bill. Anyhow my name on the license is Barbara Elyse St-Aubrey - on the registration card it is Barbara St Aubrey - no period and no dash and no middle name so the gal who has seen me for years had to say I am not who my registration card says I am.
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Why in hell, if they KNOW you, can't they take an oath that you are who you claim to be?
When I was a Judge of Election in many polling places over many years here in Maryland, I could do that! It was only necessary a couple of times. Someone sitting "poll watching" would challenge someone and if I knew them, I could say that I knew it was so and so for a fact and heck, I was not even ASKED to swear to it. My word was considered good!
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The written word in a law proceeds observation. Anyone can say anything is the justification. Our word does not hold water unless in front of a judge in a court of law after promising to tell the truth...so help me God and an Election Judge does not have the power to over-ride a written law.
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Fiddlesticks! We were all sworn in in the wee dark hours of the morning and were made, for that day, "judges" of the election. To say that we knew someone in that precinct to be the person they claimed to be was PART OF OUR JOB!
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No longer - we upheld voting protocol and voting rights according to law. The law changed - Each state has its own law on this but I would check with your county.
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Well, I am too old to put in the hours to be a poll worker any longer, but I can tell you this: as far as I know, Maryland has not changed any of its voting laws. And Maryland DOES NOT require a photo ID as of this minute. I doubt they ever will. I voted in 2012 with just my voter registration card sent me when I first registered by the Chairman of Elections in my hot little hand. It has no photo. But they never asked to see it. They just asked me my name and address and checked me off in their big book and the next worker gave me a card and I got in line for the booths. We have not had any problems with any fraudulent voting.
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But isn't the ID a photo one....doesn't that show you are who you are, even if the period and hyphen and middle name are missing? It isn't as if your photo ID said your name was Gertrude Turnipseed and your registration was Barbara St Aubrey.
Sounds like common sense was out the door.
I hope you write letters to your state legislators, the newspapers, TV stations, etc.
Jane
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the registration card comes annually and each year it is a different color - it is post card size no photo, just name, address, sex, birth date, precinct number that sort of thing. Just called Travis County Voter Registration and it appears I ran into an overzealous poll worker - the law says that if there is not an exact match I was supposed to be able to swear who I was to the poll judge and then initial the line on the page where I sign in - there is still the possibility I may have had to vote provisionally.
Having worked one year where mail-in and provisional votes are counted I know that both are not included in the outcome unless it is a tie vote - we simply checked to see the signatures matched on the request form to the voting form and than they are filed by precinct. Amazing how many do not match - as I see it older people signature is altered with shaking hands or can't find glasses and so the signature goes uphill or is wiggly - all are thrown out as bogus votes. and so all these bogus votes that are offered as rational are a crock.
What is infuriating is how, they as clerks I understand, but they do not acknowledge in voice change the outrage of being denied a vote.
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I haven't shown my voter registration card in 39 yrs at my present address in NJ. There is no picture on it. This is all nonsense. Voter fraud is practically non-existent, unlike the ethics violations of lobbyists. We had the lowest voter turn out in NJ history. People are sick of government and the people who govern and are giving up on democracy.
Example of the lies of the right, Frank Gafney - i think that's his last name - said that when people sign up for health care they have to register to vote and its a ploy for the Dems to raise the ranks of the "takers" and we will lose America as we know it bcs everyone will be on the dole!!! Idiocy!
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Amazing the outright lies being told!
That guy who lost in Alabama, the one who still swears President Obama was born in Kenya. He is lying outright, and he has to know that is a lie, but he still does it and his followers believe it!
In essence, he is saying our government, including our State Department from waaaay back in 1967 when they issued a PASSPORT for American citizen Barack Obama to go to Indonesia, is conspiring against the American people in allowing this foreign born communist, Muslim, alien, socialist crook to be president. Who was president in 1967? Lyndon Johnson, I think. So it must have been an LBJ led conspiracy? Who was it who decided back then to make this little black boy president on a far future date? And why? Was he a communist, Muslim, alien, socialist crook at birth? At age six? I simply cannot connect the dots here. Do these liars realize you have to send the State Department (ok, properly the Department of State) a BIRTH CERTIFICATE in order to receive a passport? Oh, crazy, crazy, crazy!
And about the health law. Michelle Bachman is telling people it will kill people! Kill old people and children! There will be death panels, says Sarah Palin. Do you want YOUR parents to have to go through that?
Dear God in Heaven!
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Yes, I have strong emotions about Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman.. They both are well aware they are lying and simply dont care. Makes me unhappy about women in general.
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Steph.
I have been unable to get into S andF today. Will just will not accept my name. Wants me to sign up again. Are you having problem?
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I'm getting in fine, Jeanne.
It should not be asking you to register again. Perhaps you could email JeanneLee...
I'll email you her email address.
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In Wyoming I just tell them my name, they check it off in a book, and I vote. I have a registration card - about 35 years old -- but they never ask for it.
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Exactly my experience here in Maryland. And once they've checked you off in the book, you CANNOT vote again. And no one else can come in and try to pretend to be you and vote.
They usually ask me to confirm my address after asking my name. And there is almost always at least ONE person there whom I know or who knows me. As for some of the others, we know each other by sight, if not by name. Grocery store and such like; you see faces, you sense a familiarity.
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That is the way it was here as well till this new law came along and now we are enemies at the polling station. All this about reasonable since we show picture ID to cash a check etc. we should be wanting to show a picture ID when we do this most important thing like vote is the explanation I hear from those who support this new law - problem it reminds me what it must have been like living in the Soviet Union as everyone is now focused on the correct ID at the expense of the camaraderie that is typical of a Democracy that we are all in this together kind of thing.
Have you noticed how more and more of our government has been taken over by Royalists - they are a persistent lot.
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I am afraid I do not know what you mean by Royalists, Barbara.
At the moment, the government seems to be hobbling along as best it can, except when the crisis of the Tea Party trying to put every obstacle possible in its way and hamper the services our citizens expect to be performed slows it down. In fact, so few of us ever even stop to THINK about how we come by these services on a daily basis, it took the shutdown to open some eyes!
I keep reading about people whose neighbors or kin or just acquaintances shout at them that they want no part of government running their lives, and that that is just what the Affordable Care Act would be. No matter that the Affordable Care Act calls for purchase of coverage from the private industry insurance sector, and that many of these same shouters are getting Medicaid or Medicare, which do not come from the private sector, but directly from we the taxpayers!
I am sorry Texas has stomped on your right as a free citizen to cast a vote in an election. I am still hoping you will raise hell. Although I was a widow of a Texan and the daughter of a man born in Texas and the granddaughter of a Texas hero and kin to many, many other Texans, including my great great grandfather, who was a congressman from Texas, I am right gratified to be living in the Freestate of Maryland these days!
Excuse me for gloating there, Barbara. I truly do feel for you and your plight. Just happy NOT being in Texas these days!
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;) :D :-*
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Barb. I agree with MaryPage.. You really need to make an issue of it. If this happened to you, it also happened to others, who may not be articulate enough to complain.
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yes, I am putting together my letters to my state rep and to the local party headquarters etc.
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YOU GO, GAL! MAKE US PROUD OF YOU!
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Go getem Barb.. Texas needs more women like you....
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When there is a war against women, it is amazing how many angles the men can think up to thwart women having a quality of life.
I expect you have all read about the fate of women under the Taliban and other groups of extremist Islamic fundamentalism.
Such as a woman cannot be examined or touched at all by a male doctor. And there are no female doctors; women are not permitted to go to school. At all. Ever.
So the rule is that the father or husband tells the doctor what her symptoms are. And he can prescribe medication and so forth. If it is wrong, she either gets well on her own or dies. If she has something organically wrong, say a tumor or appendicitis, she dies. Women help other women have their babies, but no males present.
Women do not eat with men, even in their own homes, do not go out unaccompanied by a man, and do not look at or speak to men. Nothing of them, hair, ankle, etc., may be seen by a man. They can be beaten for a male catching a glimpse of something, because it may overly excite him.
If we do not do all we can to impede the attempts to curtail women's rights in this country, we are headed right down a road to equality with the women of Afghanistan.
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If you like champagne, thank the Widow Cliquot for keeping the making of it alive thru the hard times and improving on its production in the good times, beginning the industry. Clever woman and supportive father-in-law. I'm going to see if i can find that book........
From Amazon: The Widow Clicquot: The Story of a Champagne Empire and the Woman Who Ruled It
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/food/2013/11/the-widow-who-created-the-champagne-industry/?utm_source=smithsoniantopic&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20131110-Weekender
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Cliquot my favorite champagne - even served it at my daughter's wedding and my son's rehearsal dinner.
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Sounds interesting and I adore champagne. Must look it up.
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Another act of insanity against women from Senate Repubs
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/13/obama-judicial-nominees_n_4255062.html?ir=Politics&utm_campaign=111313&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Alert-politics&utm_content=Title
On the other hand this headline gives us hope that there is some sanity in the Congress. Of course, its never going to get passed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/13/pro-choice-bill-womens-health-protection-act_n_4266599.html
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The lunatic from South Carolina has now decided to simply block all nominees.. The Senate needs to revamp all of those good old boy rules.
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They keep insisting, those white male Republicans, that it is not because Obama is (half) black or because they hate women in business and professions and politics.
But you know it is. They make it so obvious.
I saw a clip of Sarah Palin on the telly yesterday or the day before. She was sounding off about the new pope being liberal, and I shuddered at how stupid, really really stupid, she sounds and despaired to think so many feel she is a shining example of womanhood or a perfect example of how women just do not fit into this man's world.
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Well she sure tries with her hunting and fishing and bagging big game.
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yes, the nonsense about the pope is so far out of her field, she should just shut up.. She is cnsidering running for Senator and that makes me sad. She does not ever finish anything.. Why oh why are Alaskan voters even remotely considering her.
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One women I really can't stand. I suppose that Alaskans
just would like someone to represent them in Washington. I can't think of who they do have at this time. She,they think would be better than nothing.
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Alaska has one Republican and one Democrat in the Senate.
Republican: Lisa Murkowski who lost the primary to a Joe Miller,a Tea Party favorite, but she won the Senate election on a write-in vote. One of a very few who've done this.
Democrat: Mark Begich
They have one Representative, Republican: Don R. Young
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Something to make you smile - a great woman comedian........... just an explanation, "left-brain" is what she calls her husband
Jeanne Robertson
http://www.youtube.com/subscription_center?add_user=jeannerobertson&annotation_id=annotation_868099&feature=iv&src_vid=TeUdZ2VkG30
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Yes, Murkowski is quite a woman..
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“I earnestly wish to point out in what true dignity and human happiness consists. I wish to persuade women to endeavor to acquire strength, both of mind and body, and to convince them that the soft phrases, susceptibility of heart, delicacy of sentiment, and refinement of taste, are almost synonymous with epithets of weakness, and that those beings are only the objects of pity, and that kind of love which has been termed its sister, will soon become objects of contempt.”
― Mary Wollstonecraft, A Vindication of the Rights of Woman
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All those years ago and she got it right..
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Last night I read the December 2013 issue of National Geographic and was beset with nightmares afterwards due to an article on page 62 titled CHILD SAVER. Story says that tribes and towns in Ethiopia kill babies born out of wedlock, born without the elders permission for the couple to have a child, or whose upper teeth come in before the lower, etc., etc., etc. These babies are considered cursed and must be done away with.
The mothers cry.
And I am filled with anguish.
Also anguished that the Supreme Court is to decide whether my employer, your employer, ANY woman's employer can refuse to allow her health coverage for contraception!
It is a push-pull situation all over this planet where we women are concerned!
I am distraught!
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The court worries me. Too much to do with social issues.
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And social issues usually translates into suppression of women's rights.
And suppression of women's rights means the nutcase males
can go right on screwing up the world for our grandchildren.
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There are so many sins committed by "Elders", always male that involve the killing of women and infants.. If I could be allowed one wish, it would be that all women learn to fight back and enforce it
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One thing that aggravates me is the total talking above people's heads of the liberals, and they don't even realize it!
Case in point:
Son Chip and I were listening to the Diane Rehm Show on NPR (National Public Radio, for anyone who is not familiar with this radio programming) as he was driving me home from the Eastern Shore this morning. The subject was a suit one Michigan woman's family has against the Roman Catholic Bishop Conference (or Conference of Roman Catholic Bishops, or something close to). Seems her water broke at 4 months and she was rushed off to the nearest hospital, the only one in her county, which happened not to be her own and is a Catholic hospital bound by the rules set down by these old men in skirts. She was cramping badly. They could see she was miscarrying, but were not allowed to abort her or advise her to go elsewhere and get aborted. They sent her home without advice. She became desperately ill (infection setting in) and went back. Twice more she was sent home, and then she finally aborted and died of the infection. Any doctor knows this will happen, unless they are lucky and can save the woman AFTER she miscarries. And any doctor knows the only outcome of no fluid for the fetus means the fetus WILL spontaneously abort and will die. But in Catholic hospitals, they cannot do anything except wait and see what God does!
It reminds me of nothing so much as the old time dunking women to see if they were witches. If she drowned, she was innocent of being a witch. If she floated, she was obviously a witch and should be burned at the stake!
So the doctors and lawyers on NPR this morning were using all kinds of fancy language. I knew what they meant. My son did, as well. But my argument is that they need to SPELL THIS OUT for the ignorant men (especially men) and women of this nation. They needed to say that in this instance, and many other situations of pregnancy, the fetus is definitely going to die, but so is the woman if the fetus does not leave her body before severe infection sets in! They flat out do not spell this out to the public and let them know it is INEVITABLE.
Nope! They cannot abort to save the life of the woman! That is killing a baby, who cannot possibly live ANYWAY!
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MaryPage, the story is horrible.
And I agree, simplicity and plain facts are needed when things are discussed.
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Maybe if we explain that all dying and/or dead things decay, and that decay and/or putrefication is rife with gross infection. I mean, ANYbody can figure that about a corpse. Maybe. Maybe not. We mostly see lovely embalmed and made up corpses at "viewings" in funeral homes. Maybe people do not know how corpses and dying bodies are full of rot and infection. Anyway, maybe if more people were told these things in plain, blunt English, they would stop and realize they never even Thought of that! Probably doctors would deplore our unmedical language and lawyers would have fits over our being so inelegantly basic, but people need to Stop and Think! Sick and/or dead fetuses that their bodies do not expel KILL WOMEN. Have done so for millions of years, but in this day and age there is No Excuse For These Deaths!!!
Pro Life???
Give me a break!
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I remember when I was young and pregnant that a woman in our church had a baby who seemingly died in her 7th month.They waited a whole 10 days to be sure before starting her labor. Horrible..
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I went to see my gastroenterologist this a.m., and she is expecting a baby girl in March. She totally agrees with me that the folks in her profession need to start using plain talk to put out the information about women dying IF THEY DO NOT GET ABORTIONS! There are pulmonary hypertension, ectopic pregnancy, preeclampsia and many other situations that can lead to the death of the mother. Instead of using these fancy names, they need to bluntly and brutally describe what happens in these instances. All these folks who think it is all black and white: you get pregnant and you have a baby, need to learn the TRUTH. I, personally, have known more than one woman with each of these problems, and more. Myself, my very first pregnancy ended at 7½ months when the cord wrapped around the baby's neck in the womb and killed my little boy. By the time my body went into labor and delivered the tiny corpse, I had an infection in me. It hit all at once, while I was lying in bed, in my kidneys. My body went into such a shock of pain that it arced on the bed. My heels were touching the sheet, and the back of my head, and that is all! They had to give me antibiotics heavily to clear it up. I was one of the lucky ones: it did clear up, I did not die, and I was actually able to have more children. But I do not believe any woman must die rather than have a fetus removed so she may continue to live. No way, Jose!
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Have you ever wondered why the church has so much difficulty with the growth of a Human cell but not, with the growth of the Bacteria cell - why don't we allow Bacteria to ride its course without interference? After all these cells are on our skin and in our nasal passages with no harm until they go deep into our bodies - we could say that about sperm except it has to enter a female body - why are we allowed to stop the course of the Bacteria cell?
This prompted me to look up what the difference is between a human cell and the bacteria cell - this is what I found...
"Human cells are eukaryotic and bacteria cells are prokaryotic. Humans have their DNA inside the nucleus, whereas bacteria have it contained within a plasmid. Human cells have larger ribosomes than bacterial cells, also human cells are a lot bigger than bacterial cells. Human cells have mitochondria while bacterial cells do not. I'm unsure about this one but I think human cells have membrane bound organelles whereas bacterial cells do not. Also human cells do not have a capsule or a flagella (apart from sperm, which do have a flagella), bacterial cells can have these two things but not all of them do."
The more I read the more I am convinced that this attitude about woman's reproduction, that has now been ingrained in so many followers of the church including, some from the Christian Right is nothing more than setting women as tools for men - I have read several books that include the Muslim and Arab culture that only tolerates women to produce their babies however, for sexual enjoyment there are virgins and young boys. Women, to those who follow the old traditions are considered unclean and regularly referred to as dirty.
Still fresh in my memory - only 2 or maybe it is 3 years ago now one of the more liberal priests from St. Eds visited our local Mary house to say Mass - my friend and I along with about 20 others attended each month and there was a communal supper after Mass. During Mass there was an open dialogue related to the Gospel. I no longer remember the gospel story for that evening but there were several side discussions going on about various issues related to the gospel. The main jest was about women priests and I turned and asked Father Rick what the church's problem was with ordaining women.
I remember being so shocked I could not respond and sat the rest of the evening literally in a state of shock. He leaned in as if a clandestine conversation was taking place between us and in a low, almost whisper he says, it is "because of a women's monthly - how could that be on the alter".
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Barbara, you have it just exactly right.
And get this: it is not just a joke to billions, BILLIONS, of people in this world about martyrs for a cause going directly to Heaven.
Those 19 young men who quietly and with firm dedication sacrificed their lives to bring down the World Trade Towers in New York on September 11, 2001 and the Pentagon and the White House (field in Pennsylvania, due to OUR OWN young sacrificial lambs) believed totally and with every cell of their bodies that they would instantly find themselves in a beautiful garden with THEIR VERY OWN 72 VIRGINS, theirs to use as they wished.
So you see, it is ingrained. Women are to be used for sexual pleasure and to prepare and offer men food and drink and all comforts. Period.
That is what we women are up against.
And if I make those young men sound like heroes rather than horrors, it is for the purpose of describing their point of view. It is what it is. Our dismissing it as nonsense neither addresses the real problem nor finds a solution.
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Elizabeth Warren is interesting me more and more.. Hilary will always have Bill as a millstone around her neck.. and there are people who will look at him and say,, he will run the country again, so Elizabeth is really getting a favorite.
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Yes I agree with you Steph on both women.
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I find more and more facebook posts of speeches she has made.. Interesting woman.
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Way back before Obama, back in the dark ages as it were, Elizabeth Warren used to be a guest with Bill Moyers on PBS. I fell in love with her back then. She has always been able to sit there with absolutely no notes whatsoever and be able to answer ANY and all questions put to her about our economy and our banking and investment systems and the world economy and, what is more, explain it in very simple understandable sentences. She is also great at explaining what should be done.
But, and here is a big but, Elizabeth Warren comes to us with a pure intelligence and an ability to connect the dots. She has no BIG MONEY lavished on her by the huge money people, and when they cannot buy someone, they destroy them.
Mind, I do not WANT this to happen. But I cannot see any other outcome. Color me jaundiced in my dotage, if you will. Speaking Truth to Power comes from a brave mouth, but one which will be shut up and stopped, one way or another.
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I like her and hope she continues without being shut down however, thinking of her as presidential material I am realizing she does not have any executive experience nor international experience which as long as the middle east is in an uproar I think we need. She is a strong advocate for justice but does not show how she could get along with those who disagree and as president that would be more than half the congress.
With as many negatives that Bill brings and in spite of his bumbling 6 years ago (he has pulled himself together) Hillary was still able to come very close to Obama - and being honest we have to admit that Obama did bring out the black vote that was not traditionally there. And so when push comes to shove I do think Hillary is the stronger candidate. For that matter at this point with the contentious congress a factor Bill could even be an asset. Just his command of the situation and being able to sum it up he could be a valuable spokesman that I think some of the miss information about the Health care is because there was not a single voice adequately explaining it during and after the process of it becoming law.
I still do not understand it - I only know some of the benefits but that is not understanding the law and how it functions nor who is changed by the law. I have to listen and poke around to try and get a picture. Obama gets many things right and works hard but he is not a great communicator - he reminds me of one of these quiet husbands who is so busy with his job he never thinks to call home to keep in touch.
The pubs will hold the fact that Hillary has no executive experience against her nor did she really accomplish that much as Sec of State. But I doubt the votes are there for any of the male candidates they may finally select. They have stepped on too many toes, Women, Blacks, Latinos, gays, and the college age voter. They continue to do their best to reduce if not eliminate these voters.
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I agree with you, Barb, that Hilary is the better candidate. Altho is she the better liked candidate? I think that the candidate's personality has a lot to do with whether he/she wins.
As to the Affordable Health Care Plan, it is very confusing. I think it should have been a one-payer plan -- Medicare for all.
Marj
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I am probably going to be booed, but darn it all. Vice Presidents or Presidents wives in a pinch attend other countries state funerals. Not sitting Presidents.. Obama is sometimes annoying with his penchant for doing his thing. A person can be your ppersonal hero, but as President, you must remember you represent the country.
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I agree, Steph. Just the security thing is a major issue/expense/problem for host country/etc.
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Steph wrote "Obama is sometimes annoying with his penchant for doing his thing. A person can be your personal hero, but as President, you must remember you represent the country. "
Not sure what you mean about Obama's penchant for doing his thing. What thing?
And don't you think he realizes and acts in order to represent our country?
Marge
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I think we like a candidate because of what and how the media represents them or how in the world would a Ted Cruz win over David Dewhurst, a long time favorite Republican but of the old school republicans. The media never said he was from Canada which here in this state would have been death at the doorway - the media is controlled during a state election by those who can afford the coverage and how to influence the coverage and according to war chest is controlled somewhat in a national election. I say somewhat because the opposite party candidate also has a war chest being used to tear down the other candidate.
Those war chests are the means to influence the public with the right combo of campaign tactics that can be bought. So that where i too like Warren over Hillary I do not see enough big money names who will support Warren's candidacy - she is making enemies of the very people on wall street that she needs if she were to go for president.
The one who is building a system that could be on the radar is Kirsten Gillibrand - she is building a following among both book readers and among progressive women and she is building a war chest as well as beginning to get placed on visible and viable committees.
Books to read that tell us how it really is that our opinions are altered - Into The Buzzsaw by Kristina Borjesson; Coercion by Douglas Rushkoff; Mass Media and American Politics by Doris A Graber; 50 Things You're Not Supposed to Know by Kick, Russ and Kick , Russ; Media and Political Engagement: Citizens, Communication and Democracy Communication, Society and Politics by Peter Dahlgren
If you read no other I would strongly recommend reading Coercion which helps us realize that those of us who think we cannot be coerced - the skill in which that attitude is used to turn us into whatever the manipulation is about - those of us who think 'no way Jose' are easier to manipulate than those who we see as easy targets. This understanding of how we are affected by what they say is more than politics.
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Obama sometimes speaks before he thinks. Not all the time certainly, but the minute Mandela died, he talked of wanting to attend the funeral and he just should not. I note that he has since remained quiet.. Sitting Presidents sometimes attend VIP funerals in the US, but never abroad. We send the Veep,,less risk.
Yes, it is startling but we actually have three women who could all forge ahead.. Kristan is really making a name for herself. Hillary already has and Elizabeth is so very bright and I understand raised a lot of money in Mass...
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I see where President Obama and Michelle Obama, former president George W. Bush and first lady Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton all traveled together aboard Air Force One to So. Africa to attend the funeral of Nelson Mandela. Also coming will be Bill Clinton and Chelsea who have been in So. America and Jimmy Carter. Over 100 world leaders are expected to attend.
Marge
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Still remember Mandela going to Cuba, hugging Castro. Talking of how wonderful the whole country was.. So I still think it is wrong to go.
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I would guess that President Obama has had this funeral on his mind for a long time, and that he didn't just speak out without thought. Nelson Mandela was clearly dying, so there would have been some discussion and planning on this, even if unofficial.
It's raining in S.Africa, which is considered a blessing and honors a great man.
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First female to lead an American car company.....Mary Barra, who began her career at GM as a co-op student.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2013/12/10/mary-barra-named-as-new-gm-ceo-becoming-first-female-chief-for-the-automaker/
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Did you notice the two sitting on the right as you look at the stage - they did not appear too happy - I bet they had someone else in contention for the job and were out voted. Or maybe one of them thought they would get the job.
Even more telling no other female on that stage!!!
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I don't know if others were in contention. The news I heard said it was well-known the current CEO had her in line for the job. She is also well known in the industry, but not so much outside it. She's been there some 33 yrs, although only 51. Nice to have someone who worked her way up, instead of "outsiders" who know nothing of a particular industry.
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I was delighted with the woman.She really seems competent and has a lot of experience in different areas. Hurray for women in automotive..
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Hurrah for women anywhere and everywhere! I favor their Ruling The World!
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I love to see woman in control of their destinies and the destinies of others. When I listen to my daughter in law, engineer, though,she says that she runs into.."oh you are a woman" still in her field.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/michigan-rape-insurance_n_4428432.html
Amazing! "No, you can't have welfare for the child we forced you to have after we refused to give you insurance to pay for an abortion, after we refused to give you insurance that would have paid for your birth control pills - you slut!" What Idiots!
To men: your gender has no authority to make any rules or laws re: abortion, or anything related to abortion! When you can get pregnant, THEN you have some authority.
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To men: your gender has no authority to make any rules or laws re: abortion, or anything related to abortion! When you can get pregnant, THEN you have some authority.
You tell 'em, Jean, I agree!
Marj
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All true, all true!
But when Viagra went on the market, Congress fell over itself having IT included in health insurance.
I honestly, with all my heart, believe it to be true that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
Oh, and of course, paid for in full by medical insurance!
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Absodefinitely, MaryPage!
The war on women continues. I just heard on the Rachel Maddow program that the Michigan state legislature passed a bill that makes it unlawful for health insurance policies to cover abortions. In order to have coverage for abortions, a woman must purchase a separate "abortion coverage policy." i.e. woman in Michigan must plan ahead for rape in order to have coverage if they want to abort a pregnancy caused by their attacker. Women there are incensed and calling it the rape insurance law.
Marj
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Insurance won't cover abortion even to save the woman's life? Rape insurance -- are they crazy? Who are these people? How did they get elected? Are younger women just not paying attention?
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You've just pushed my button!
That is the MAIN thing I am so incensed about!
Rape is bad. Terrible. Beyond conscience.
So is incest, which is also rape.
But they are not LISTENING. Even women are not listening!
Women who become pregnant run a risk of being killed by that pregnancy!
YES! KILLED BY IT!
And it is preventable by removing the fetus in many, many cases!
When the fetus dies in the womb, but does not expell, that fetus rots and causes infection which kills the mother unless the dead fetus is removed!
But men say it is God's Will whether the mother dies or not. Doesn't matter if she has children needing her at home. DO NOT ABORT THE FETUS! Hey, doctors may just not be hearing a viable heartbeat there!
In short, the unborn fetus TRUMPS THE WOMAN!
No matter both will die in the end.
This is ALL about controlling women and NOTHING to do with being For Life!
Hey, stop and think about it. Is there any single one of us who is FOR DEATH????
Scheesch!
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Alex Wagner just did a great show about women's roles in society. Especially interesting was the discussion of how the "selfie" picture was proposed as a "cat fight" between women - Michele and the Prime Minister of Denmark - and how the press covers very little of the many Women heads of state around the world who are really getting things done!
Another was how few women protagonists there are in tv and movies. In tv the biggest number are the Housewives shows that show women behaving badly! And i thought "why are they called 'housewives'? NONE of them are "housewives" and they give real housewives a bad name!
Jean
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They showed the results of a serious national study on television news last night.
They had very attractive and totally qualified young men
and very attractive and totally qualified young women.
One of each applied for the same job. They were videoed while being interviewed.
Each gave EXACTLY the same responses, word for word.
And in exactly the same way.
The men were picked in every case.
And the women were said to be too bossy or too aggressive or too sure of themselves.
You see
It is a matter of mental road block expectations.
However you grew up believing
that is the pattern you judge ALL people by. Always. For the rest of your days.
Unless you are lucky enough to see the Light!
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Oh Mary Page,, how truly deeply strange. Young women need to start paying attention or they will find themselves back in the closet.
I think a selfie at a funeral is deeply disturbing.I dont care how much music or dancing. He is the President of the U.S. and should act accordingly. Not like some sort of teen.
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Apparently it was a celebration, so solemnity and quiet might not be appropriate either.
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I honestly believe that the selfies in public are all inappropriate..
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Interesting because I am thinking of using selfies to track my efforts and the slow change that is not easily seen for a couple of adjustments to my life - I have a secret blog that I plan on uploading to like, a diary of photos of me carrying out the daily tasks like I have promised myself for years to walk all the trails in Austin - there are at last count 79 so that is more than one a week and with some of the summer temps too high for a long 5 mile or better walk I need to walk two a week while the weather is cool. Anyhow without a partner who wants to do this I will be logging a lot of selfies for my blog
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Be sure to post a link to your blog when you upload it, Barb. :D
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You are using selfies to track progress and that sounds interesting.The public ones are the ones I find awful.. No one cares except you if you have a selfie with someone famous..
I too say do post us a place to enjoy the blog. I know so little about blogs.
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It occurs to me this morning, while contemplating an ABC special interview on television news about Andrea Elliott of The New York Times and her fantabulous article titled THE INVISIBLE CHILD, that the forces of male evilness, abetted by female instincts favoring abasement (if they could only SEE themselves!), have had literally thousands of years of experience in terrorist sabotage of any attempt to allow women to exercise control over their own bodies and over the direction their lives and those of their children take.
Yes, let us face the truth: some women enjoy a frisson of inclusion and almost sexual excitement when they desert their own sex and become cheerleaders for those masculine dictators forcing degradation upon females of the human species. These women bask in imagined favorable treatment from these big, tough male icons of power, not realizing the price they have had to pay or the misery of the women and children who have had to put up most of that price.
I have long wondered at, and remarked upon in here, the failure of our medical community to give voice loudly and plainly to the many, many instances in pregnancy when abortion is absolutely necessary to save a mother's life. A woman's life. Your life or my life.
And today it struck me forcibly: they shoot and kill doctors and nurses involved in providing abortions. There is a long and sordid history of this.
So there is no reason to believe the lives of any doctors (and their families) who would speak Truth to Power would be safe.
Coming or going, we women are encircled, ambushed and enslaved. Only those of us who manage to get our fertile years behind us and live into an old age are safe from further intrusions into our being.
But our daughters and granddaughters and great granddaughters are not being made aware of their peril.
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Oh MaryPage, I do agree. Doctors and nurses who aid abortions have been killed in way too many cases.
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The story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born in the 3rd century in the village of Patara (today the southern coast of Turkey). His wealthy parents raised him to be a devout Christian. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, sick, and suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to those in need and his love for children.
Saint Nicholas died December 6, 343 and was buried in his cathedral church. The anniversary of his death became a day of celebration, St. Nicholas Day, December 6th.
Through the centuries many stories and legends have been told of St. Nicholas' life and deeds. It became a custom throughout the European Christian world that children received gifts in their shoes or stockings on the 6th day of December. This is still the custom in many places. The Dutch brought St. Nicolas with them when they founded New York. The way they pronounced his name led to English speaking settlers calling him Santa Claus.
Clement Moore wrote A Visit From Saint Nicholas in 1823. We now call it “Twas The Night Before Christmas.” In it, he makes Saint Nick a small elf who can get down chimneys and puts him in a red suit.
I can remember when almost all greeting cards and decorations portrayed Santa as an elf or Saint Nicholas in his bishop’s robes. Gradually, the Coca-cola ads made Santa Claus bigger and bigger and ever bigger!
Saint Nicholas himself was not of Caucasian descent. He was of and from the Middle East.
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The des piles were not Caucasian either many early Christians were not
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Yep and Jesus was not a white man either being Jewish and speaking Aramaic there is no way he would be considered white - maybe not black but certainly not white.
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Brown. Brown is the color Jesus would have been.
He was a Jew.
He lived in the Middle East.
The Jews were a Semitic tribe that had, through a religion they founded, broken off from the other semitic tribes.
We call most of the rest of those tribes still living there today, Arabs.
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Yes,I am amazed at the conservative evangelicals.. Where the heck do they think Jesus and the disciples came from.. Baltimore?? Oh well, ignorance is common.
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The art of the Middle East did not include portraits of humans or images of an imagined god or person as a rule, as they thought this led to idolatry.
So it was left to the Italians and their ilk to portray Jesus and God The Father and the Holy Ghost. We know what they began and continued to do right up to this day. God wears a white robe and has white hair and beard. Jesus has fair skin, long blond hair and blue eyes, and is tall and slender. The Holy Ghost is a white dove.
ART, in short, from one group of creatively gifted people gave the world its first images of the Divine.
It was all a matter of culture and taste, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what Jesus of Nazareth looked like.
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Hmm, seems to me in some museum or another ( I am a museum freak and have been to way too many),,, but anyway, there were so very old religious paintings that depicted Jesus and disciples are swarthy, dark, big nosed.. semitic in other words. Wish I knew or could remember the artist. Anyway I was much impressed that someone had actually thought of the real people.
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Will we never get this issue resolved???
NEWSFLASH: The newest Disney princess (Anna from Frozen) has eyes bigger than her wrists.
Yep — thanks to work by sociologist Philip N. Cohen — we can now chew on that fact for a while.
While cartoons certainly aren’t the number one source for realistic portrayals of the human form, Cohen’s work finds surprising patterns in the way Disney films portray male and female characters‘ bodies. Male characters boast hands that dwarf female counterparts, and female leads have eyes sometimes twice the size of their male partner — trends that romanticize wide-eyed innocence for girls and strength and dominance for boys.
Mr. Cohen isn’t the only person disrupting our ideas on popular kids’ movies. Last year, TEDxBeaconStreet’s own Colin Stokes gave this fascinating talk on how movies teach manhood, which totally challenged how we look at gender in kids’ movies.
Over at the TED Blog, Colin unpacks the messages he sees in more movies that are favorites for kids — and recommends some great picks for enlightened watching. Here’s a sampling:
Movie formula: The Quest
Typical Version: A boy’s world is threatened by an evil male force. He must train and mobilize other boys to defeat the enemy in a violent conflict. There is essentially one female, who is granted to the hero as a prize.
Examples: Star Wars, The Hobbit, The Lion King
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Enlightened version: A boy or girl (or team) seeks to heal an injustice in the world. They must make friends who share their goal to change the culture of an older generation, by modeling a better way.
Examples: The Wizard of Oz, The Muppet Movie, The Dark Crystal, Castle in the Sky (Japan), Spy Kids 1 & 2, Tangled
Read his whole guide here»
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HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WISHING YOU ALL OF THE BEST IN 2014.
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Hmm. I can see whre Harry and his friends, although not cartoons fit into his plan.
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As the Jews start out as Etheopion. I would think of the people of Jesus time being very dark. (They are still very dark to this day) would not have the long blond hair. Blue eyes , perfect teeth, always shown. People picture people looking back then like they were looking more like the Nordic people of today. I have not seen one picture , statue in any gallery or church that would be correct.
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Happy New Year.. May women forge ahead this year and work at getting a woman ready to run for President. It should be our turn..
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Disappointed in Judge Sotomayor holding up Obama care for women's reproductive aids - she took on a case by a group of Nuns in Colorado who are still fighting that an Catholic institution that serves the public must have health insurance for their employees that includes Birth Control coverage. Which says a women has no rights over her reproductive system it is the right of the government to control or not control - if these various religious institutions were for only Catholics and not public I could see their complaint but they want the benefits of a religious status and the profits of a public business and now they want to skip their responsibility as a public business and cry religion. No word though about Viagra only birth control - we are not talking abortion we are talking birth control a daily pill that allows women to have a normal sex life.
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Well, it looks as though the Vatican is of a mind to allow homosexuality (as IF they have ever been able to disallow it, since there has always been a surfeit of it in their own ranks!), but that, galfriends, is a gift to the guys. They are not about to loosen the restraints on those of our gender. We are primarily baby machines and no birth control or even lifesaving abortion is to be countenanced!
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I too am disappointed in Sotomayer and I note that she also is the judge to go to in the Utah case as well. Had hoped that being a catholic would not sway her, but Ican see that it did. I note as far as I know. she has no children.
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Have you ever entertained the whimsical thought that if EVERY human male and every never married female, nuns, priests, whatever, were suddenly pregnant and had to go through the nine months and the birthing procedure and then find themselves with this hungry, screaming and fragile creature to care for, that the laws regarding birth control and abortion would suddenly be totally revised?
Pity, but true: there can never be empathy from those whose condition in life bars them forever from the same fate or condition.
If it CAN'T happen to you, you just aren't going to worry about the riff raff it is happening to!
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Never mind the age old arguments it is immoral to have extra children who like the flu germ can take hold - we are living on a fragile plant without enough water and even now the main portion of the Philippians that is so controlled by the Catholic Bishop and his case against birth control there is police patrols daily on the surrounding water to attempt to stop the fishing which is the main source of food for the poor with most families having upwards of 13 children and few are educated - as compared to Culion island that decided with government OK to limit the number of children in a family to three with the cooperation of the men. The children are all being educated and they have land they can farm without shanties competing for space and the fish are plentiful.
http://www.wri.org/philippines-social-programs-reduce-pressure-culion-island%E2%80%99s-reefs
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Ah, but Barbara,
IGNORANCE RULES!
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I was very troubled to learn there is a Christmas carol in Romania that is sung in Christian churches and contains the words:
"The kikes, damn kikes, Holy God would not leave the kike alive, neither in heaven nor on earth; only in the chimney as smoke, this is what the kike is good for, to make kike smoke through the chimney on the street."
And a choir performed it on the state sponsored television!
http://abcnews.go.com/International/anti-semitic-christmas-carol-uproar/story?id=21205371
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Eastern Europe seems to still display the old hatred against anyone different than they are.
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And the problem is deeper - evidently after the Spanish Jews set up their communities in the Netherlands after they were kicked out of Spain the prosperous and educated Sephardi Jewish community had severe punishment for themselves if they helped, gave employment or housing to those Jews who were coming from the Baltic's, Poland and what is eastern Germany today.
Bits and pieces I have been attempting to trace the history of Jews in Europe - on the surface the complaint was competition among the emerging Middle Class merchant that grew to isolating them from communities - so far the best I have found is that Rome always had a superior attitude to the Jews and were the ones who demolished the Temple in Jerusalem.
I look at this attitude of blaming the Jews for Christ's death and it makes no sense - it had to have been a rallying cry established a couple of hundred years later since at the time of the Crucifixion there were no Christians - they were Jews who followed Jesus - the first time the word Christian is used is in the late 200s - even the early martyrs were not labeled Christian.
The best I can put it together when Constantine and the Pope just before him stopped the persecution of the Christians and Constantine converted himself and all his people he also took the small Jewish symbol off the flag and replaced it with a Christian symbol.
My gut says that the Christians were going to strongly support this leader who lifted their 300 years of oppression and persecution by local authorities according to the whims of the local community than it was ordered by the imperial authority and the newly legalized Christians were going to join the Romans in spades partnering with their attitudes of being superior to the Jews.
I have not found it yet, but I even bet the idea of justifying this partnership in superiority, with Christians now also blaming Jews for every mishap came about at this time - they were too busy earlier protecting their own skin - and I bet this is when the Jews Killed Jesus story was shared as logical justification.
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MaryPage I could buy "IGNORANCE RULES!" if this came from the people but we are talking educated - in fact far more educated than a 4 year degree leader of the Church who join other educated leaders of the church in this convoluted thought pattern that justifies Misogyny.
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My study of history tells me this: at first, they were all called Jews and went by that name. But gradually, after the death of Jesus of Nazareth, those groups who gathered together and came to believe that he was the Son of God, were called followers of Jesus. And then, because these groups called him The Christ, they began to be called Christians and accepted converts from among the gentiles, that is to say, those who had never been Jews. And so it was that gradually, and then quickly, they no longer called themselves Jews, but "Christians."
And when you want to start a new religion and gather many followers, you have to have a scape goat. Someone to despise. They chose those Jews who did not convert.
And the new church forbade Jews in the Holy Roman Empire to own land. They could not buy or sell any type of real estate.
So they had to deal in movable goods and put their money in jewels, gold, silver and cash. They became mostly merchants. Christians liked to say they cheated them, and further their bad reputation.
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Then the Church passed a rule that a good Christian must not receive interest on loans, as that would be usury and a mortal sin. And Christians could not PAY interest!
So most of your first bankers were Jews and Lombards. And it became so that the Jews of Europe financed all the wars the Christian kings wanted to wage.
Then, when these kings could not pay up their horrendous debt, they would declare a pogram and expell the Jews!
This happened over and over and over and over again! Truth! I am telling it like it was!
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Could be MaryPage however, the Roman Bishopric was not a legal governing body affecting more than religious expression until after Constantine in 313 however it was in 380, under Emperor Theodosius I, that Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire. Before then the church had no power although they were called on to judge deputes, and the people followed the results there was no legal power to make laws.
The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE was the decisive event of the First Jewish-Roman War.
Christ is crucified in the 1st century
The First Council of Nicaea in 325 promotes using the word Christian and it is when the word is used in Rome where as yes, there were groups in Cyprus and Cyrene, that when they came to Antioch described themselves as Christian and yes, it was in pockets - and could be those pockets had enough influence to sway all Christians to use the Jews as scapegoats - to me it has more a link to the traditional quarrel between Rome and the Jews since when you read the old information from Justine and Constantinople there is not this visceral hatred blaming Jews for every fire and epidemic.
During the first 1000 years the fight was between the five supposedly equal Bishoprics with Jerusalem having lost its power early on -
It is an interesting trail to find how this started - there is still too much history during the first approximately 600 years that affects and dips into this phenomenon - The Germans along with the other tribes north and east of Rome had a huge impact and pretty much turned the Roman church into their version of Christianity and became the most influential leaders within the Church from just before the year 400 for about a 1000 years. With so much of the hatred in the traditional culture from this part of Europe this has been my most recent focus reading about the Goths, Vandals, Angles, Saxons, Lombards, Suebi, Frisii and Franks.
You would think if it was a Roman ingrown hatred than western Europe with direct ties to Rome would be the most guilty culprits but instead we find this hatred strongest in the east from Russia south.
A big influence was the Muslims who when the swept across the Mediterranean and especially in Spain they convinced the Jews to fight for them since they came without their army and the Jews were hired to fight the Christians and so you have the nucleus of Isobel and Ferdinand kicking the Jews out of Spain. Before the arrival of the Muslims in Spain history shows a working relationship between the Jews who make things and farmed so the Christians could be soldiers.
Have tons to learn and we can all have our idea of how this happened but the idea it originated soon after the Crucifixion blaming as if the Jews killed Christ just does not add up. Heck Nero blamed both Christians and Jews for the 6 day fires burning in Rome and that was I think 67 CE
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I am overwhelmingly not liking Sonia.. She turned it over to the court and that was a disaster since there are too many catholics on the court.. So now they took away Utahs ability to marry anyone and now they are worried if the marriages will be legal. She is proving very disappointing to me.
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Having been 'absent' I have only just come across this discussion thread - fantastic! My daughters and I talk a lot about how women are portrayed in books, films, etc. Madeleine is reading Caitlin Moran's books - she is a strident feminist, very funny - I haven't read the books but I'e read columns in newspapers that she writes for.
Has anyone read Cassandra At The Wedding by Dorothy Baker? It is a strange, fascinating (and easy to read) book about a woman returning from the city to her family home to attend her identical twin's very conventional wedding. It is possible, I think, to interpret Cassandra & her sister as two versions of the same woman, the one conforming, the other struggling as a very much not conforming outsider. I loved it. Here is what Amazon UK says:
'Cassandra Edwards is a graduate student at Berkeley: gay, brilliant, nerve-racked, miserable. At the beginning of this novel, she drives back to her family ranch in the foothills of the Sierras to attend the wedding of her identical twin, Judith, to a nice young doctor from Connecticut. Cassandra, however, is hell-bent on sabotaging the wedding.
Dorothy Baker’s entrancing tragicomic novella follows an unpredictable course of events in which her heroine appears variously as conniving, self-aware, pitiful, frenzied, absurd, and heartbroken—at once utterly impossible and tremendously sympathetic. As she struggles to come to terms with the only life she has, Cassandra reckons with her complicated feelings about the sister who she feels owes it to her to be her alter ego; with her father, a brandy-soaked retired professor of philosophy; and with the ghost of her dead mother.
First published in 1962, Cassandra at the Wedding is a book of enduring freshness, insight, and verve. Like the fiction of Jeffrey Eugenides and Jhumpa Lahiri, it is the work of a master stylist with a profound understanding of the complexities of the heart and mind.'
Madeleine & I have also recently been to two exhibitions in Edinburgh of Louise Bourgeois's work - drawing,s etchings, sculptures and some writing. She grappled all her life with what it meant to be a woman. She felt she had failed as a wife, mother, sister, daughter, etc. Some of her stuff is decidedly weird, but gripping, and strangely moving. Daughter loved it and fortunately was able to explain at least her own interpretation of some of the works to me!
Rosemary
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Welcome, Dear Rosemary. Delighted to receive your input.
I have not previously heard of the book you mention. Fascinating.
It is a matter of great joy to me to hear every variety of opinion on a subject, and most especially to obtain new thought ranges to mull over. That being stated, and I do mean every word, it is the deepest of mysteries to me to contemplate what I see as an absolute: namely that the female of our species has been treated as of less importance for thousands upon thousands of years of known history. This has been true in almost every culture and civilization, and was true when we lived as animals. The feature of this truth that really staggers me is the fact that such a large portion of women themselves accept this as the original, inevitable and proper truth of proportional values. I do not accept being valued less, albeit millennial upon millennial of my bloodlines have done so.
And this, to me, is what being a feminist is all about. Ergo: one can be a feminist regardless of one's gender.
"Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex." Approved by Congress, March 22, 1972.
This oh so simple law has never become law. Our states did not ratify it.
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Oh me, I read Cassandra many years ago and it was roundly booed when first published. It is somewhat scattered as I remember and Cassandra would be a truly difficult person to try and love.
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I've ordered a sample of Cassandra for my kindle. Although as a twin (though not identical) I get impatient with those who assign mystical significance to twinness.
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I'm more interested in the idea that Cassandra and Judith are two opposing aspects of a woman's life - especially in the 1960s, when to be different was so much less acceptable than it even is now.
I look forward to hearing what you think Joan :)
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I checked on Cassandra on Amazon - looks like a good book. Thanks for bringing it up. And I'm glad you're back, Rosemary.
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THIS IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/gop-bill-irs-abortion-audits
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
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I see that's from 2011, so apparently....gasp...could it be??? that common sense prevailed and that idea died in some committee?
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Extremely weird. Every single one of my posts from yesterday are gone. Am I nuts.. hallucinating?? oh well.
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MaryPage, I clicked on your link, and got blocked out, with a message from my Norton that it was a fake web site. Interesting.
Strange, Steph. I remember seeing some of your posts.
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There was some sort of server glitch/error and nobody could get in to SeniorLearn. So, the server people had to reset/restore the discussions back to a "safe" time....and that was 11:00 pm the night before. So, you're not hallucinating or anything....
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I am so sorry. I was sent that website and I posted it in here. But that was ALL this morning and had nothing to do with this site having problems last night. Jane, you are swifter than I by a long ways! I did not catch the date of the proposed legislation.
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That's incredible!
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At last we are back to normal. am caught up in the New Jersey mess.. I find it hard to believe that he did not even notice when the commotion was going on.. Hmm.
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I've just read an interview with Maria Shriver in the new AARP magazine. It mentions her project, The Shriver Report. It's about the status of women in the world today. Thought the folks here might like to check it out.
http://shriverreport.org/
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I saw the program with Maria Shriver and a lot of real life women on MSNBC last night. Maria is doing a Great job getting the message out there that we are a majority everywhere except in running things, and that we need to become a group together and get the power we deserve and still lack because we do not utilize a single, focused voice.
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As for the New Jersey mess, I listened to the whole Christie press conference last week, and came away admiring his stamina and seeming candor. He convinced me!
Then I listened to all the talking heads, especially the Sunday Morning crowd on each network, and have been listening to the regular news and the cable guys & gals since. It rather stuns me that the majority seem to have doubts about his not knowing, and this does not run to political party so much as to experience. A lot of these people have been in office or have worked on the staffs of office holders. They seem to have a lot of doubts, and they bring up things I never even thought about. So I am in a quandry as to whether or not to believe him.
At dinner last night, my son in law opined that the Hurricane Sandy money he spent on advertising the Jersey Shore will be an even bigger problem for Christie politically. Say What?
I just don't know. My head is swirling.
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Jersey is one of those states that have decidedly odd politicians.
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He is a charming manipulator I will give him that - which goes hand in glove with those who successfully abuse power and use others to obtain power -
Look at all power grabbers from the abusive wife batterer who starts off charming the pants off her and everytime he abuses he begs forgiveness in a way that not only flatters her but sounds sincere and he knows just the buttons to push -
There are some in all walks of life who use these tactics and as Steph says old time politics was rife with those who were the best at looking good while manipulating the heck out of the public.
However, I do agree that sometimes we assume folks "should" know about something and they sincerely do not - but I agree with your family member MaryPage who sees the handwritting on the wall about the use of Fed Funds after Sandy - the issue as i see it is politics and the GOP for the last few years seem to do a good job of eating themselves. That last primary for the presidential nominee was a poster for the dysfunction in the party.
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I am honestly at sea in studying BOTH issues regarding Christie.
Re the use of funds, it would seem reasonable to me that one of the TOP PRIORITIES the business folk of the New Jersey beaches had was to get tourists to come back. On the down side, I hear repeatedly that there was a great deal of promotion in there for Christie himself, and the ads featured him and his family a lot. While, of course, those multi millions could have been spent on restoring homes and streets, etc. Infrastructure and utilities. I just don't know all the argumentation pro and con.
As for my having been convinced by Christie himself (and Barbara, you are of course right on regarding charming con criminals, male or female), I truly was. Was convinced. And then I hear all these men and women who have actually worked in governor's, senator's, congressmen's offices, and are saying it was just not possible in ANY of the places they worked for their bosses at the top not to have known! Basically, while they are giving many arguments, they are saying it does not fit the framework within which they work for him not to have known.
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MaryPage as I understand it was not just that he and his family were featured in the film that yes, does promote tourism but in order to assure that exposure he spent far more than he had to in order to accomplish the same thing another company, who would only use their actors with a much lower price tag was ditched so that more money went into the final film that could have been used elsewhere. The additional costs may have something to do with hiring a non-union film crew since this is a big union supported area of the country.
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Mr. Christie doesn't follow "the buck stops here" philosophy. He was the boss, he should have known - frankly, I believe he did know. He's too smart a man not to have known.
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Nice feature on Wendy Davis on Today just now.. but the Texas male pol said it best..Texas is a conservative state and she is not that popular there. A shame. She could be very good for the state.
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I totally agree, Steph. And what is more, she is not from Privilege. She pulled herself up "by the bootstraps," which should make her extremely popular in Texas. But hey, females don't count! What she has accomplished starting from nowhere and immense challenges is flat out astounding! You would think Texans, of all people, would cheer for that.
I have no wish to push a point of view or a newsgiver on you, but if you are missing Rachel Maddow at nine EST on MSNBC you are missing the breaking news on the Christie front. Sad to say, I would guess they've "got him" now. The man he says he went to the same High School with and otherwise barely knows and had not seen for ages? Two photos came up showing the two of them yakking it up in public places IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS! Also, the emails between various members of his staff are getting deeper and deeper into the doo doo, with ever more staff members becoming involved. Amazing stuff. Barbara, I thought about you a lot while listening last night. You are so right on about the skills of con men. Scary stuff! I would have sworn he was completely truthful and contrite. Smitten with betrayal.
It is really bothering me to see the pattern of mafia type political infighting held right up to my eyes. These guys are all out for themselves, and hold the taxpayers in contempt while ever wooing them! So sad. So truly, truly sad.
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Ya I am jaded - my life was yanked out of me and I am still crawling back 28 years later after learning my husband was sexually abusing my daughter for years while she was growing up. Yep, he had all the charm and socially importance in a community so that many of my so called friends still think my daughter was lying and how business does not want to be associated with taboo problems so I was told, not asked but told to leave the Real Estate company I was associated with - so not only all the therapy for what happened, then my daughter had no idea who to believe him or me - god, talk about an atom bomb -
Then he insisted on staying in the lives of the kids and the therapy my daughter pursued was all about forgiveness - thank god he is dead after two more wives - one wife two days before he died married in the hospital - daughter and her cousin had to show up to the reception and tell all the guests - then they had all the kids present cut the wedding cake while my son had to comfort this new bride who at least had a burial plot so they were saved that - sheesh - then my son had to explain to the minister why he would not talk at the funeral - he even had this minister fooled but the minister was supportive of my son who told his sister, my daughter to go home - enough was enough. Of course I was always there to listen to them and yet, still so much pain no one ever acknowledged of how I had no idea who I was or what was real it was like floating in a fogged in swamp never even walking in the water much less on land.
Part of picking myself up piece by piece and bit by bit included reading and reading and reading about power and coercion and how power is used by soldiers when there are no superior officers directing them on and on - so yes, there are many ques to Christie being a bully - one being his weight - anyone with an addiction is hiding pain - and combining that running-away from your pain or memory or your own skin you are either a victim - or you freeze with bouts of depression or a bully - versions of fight, flight or freeze. Some folks can use their fight or bully to build, much like Johnson or even Kennedy and Reagan - all charmers - where as everything I read points to Bush II freezing and coming out from safe corners to get things done.
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Apparently lying conpeople will lie right up to and including their dying breath. And molesters and abusers turn the spotlight on the VICTIM and make people question THEM!!!
I mean, what child WANTS to acknowledge a parent, their very own closest kin, as a criminal molester? Ask any group of children of any age if they want a parent like this and if they want to tell the world!
It reminds me of nothing so much as the picture I carry in my head of asking rooms full of pregnant women who WANTS to have an abortion! Or any room full of any child bearing age women if they harbor a desire to one day have an abortion. No one wants to. No one!
Barbara, I am so very sad to know you and your precious daughter have had to suffer in this way. Keep telling your story; this culture needs desperately to WAKE UP to reality! You are the hope of future victims. It is very similar to trying to change the military culture, which has always believed in the innate right of warriors to rape women. It is, in their mindset, a PERK of the vocation, if you will!
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What a terrible thing, Barb! I cannot even begin to imagine what you and your children have gone through. And the ultimate blow when people don't believe something like that can happen. You have all been so strong - even to outliving him. Keep it up, gal!
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I agree Barb, you have been so strong and vital. I know your daughter has benefited from having a mother who cared. Con men.. Oh me, it is amazing how many people believe a charming man over any sort of truths. I have an old friend, who many years ago was presented with a nude picture of her second oldest daughter, who was maybe 11.. Taken definitely in her basement and totally by her husband. She tried to talk to him and he ran to an attorney and was trying to remove the four children from her.She picked up and ran.. Disappeared for many years. She successfully hid until her youngest was 18 and then reappeared and got a divorce.. A very brave woman.
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If you have not already read Aimee Molloy's book: HOWEVER LONG THE NIGHT, you should put it on the very top of your reading stack. Seriously.
It is about how an American girl, Molly Melching, went to Senegal in Africa for a semester of college and stayed and changed the female culture immensely and permanently.
It is a truly "WOW" book, and every female on this planet should read it.
And no, I have no connection whatsoever with the author or the heroine. Only admiration.
And lots of that!
I should warn you that when I first ordered this book, I did not pay close enough attention and I got a book by the SAME TITLE but by another author. So watch carefully!
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Poor Wendy Davis..She needed to be a bit more forthcoming than she was.. All politicians, male and female cannot seem to grip that you cannot fudge or omit, someone knows and will blab.
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And then there's the story about that poor "dead" woman in Fort Worth that the hospital insists on keeping on life support. When it's finally over, I hope the husband and the rest of her family sue the socks off the hospital. I shouldn't even get started on it.
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Oh yes you should. We all should.
Unless it is your blood pressure you are worried about.
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Finally...
Fort Worth, Texas (CNN) -- A Texas judge ordered a Fort Worth hospital to remove a pregnant and brain-dead woman from respirators and ventilators on Friday, perhaps ending a wrenching legal debate about who is alive, who is dead and how the presence of a fetus changes the equation.
Erick Munoz, husband of Marlise Munoz, broke down in tears after Judge R.H. Wallace told John Peter Smith Hospital to act on his order by 5 p.m. Monday.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/
Apparently Texas has some law that the hospital says it was following.
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I had heard that the judge told the hospital to turn off the machines. Last I heard, the hospital hadn't decided whether to appeal the decision.
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story/texas-hospital-end-care-brain-dead-woman-22029041?ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
According to this, the hospital complied, she was taken off life support, and she died. Anti-abortion foes tried to get the hospital to deliver the fetus. That didn't happen.
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Even the hospital admitted that the fetus was not salvageable.. too damaged.
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That was in our paper this morning, too. What a nightmare it's been for the poor man and the rest of her family.
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Absolutely! There's so much talk about not wanting "gov't in our health care". But not, it seems, when some want their opinions forced on others! AAACCCKKK!
Health decisions need, in my opinion, to be made by FAMILY and medical doctors...not outsiders!
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JANE, you just made it to the list of my very favorite people.
Hey, check out this brilliant pol's comments: https://www.facebook.com/PPAKM/posts/1975912356042
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Yes, I truly have problems with the number of people who seem to feel that they have the right to tell others what to do with their bodies.. Amazing. How would those old men like it , if I got to decide who got Viagra and who didn't.
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Right, Steph. They want to have their Viagra, but don't want the women to have sex or any protection. I wonder who they want to have sex with?!
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Oh, Steph, I wish you did!
And if you can get yourself appointed to that position, may I join you as your assistant, Please!?
Note that the Very Minute Viagra and the like came into existence, our lovely congress in Washington, D.C. immediately passed legislation to make the health industry pay for it; no questions asked!
I mean, the doctors were giving away FREE SAMPLES in their appointments about other stuff medical! My dear departed husband told me this, and I never knew him to tell something untrue. And besides, he had the pills to SHOW ME what he was given. They were in a little envelope for him to try, and if he liked them, he could call and a prescription would be meted out immediately. We 'bout died laughing at the time.
But the IRONY with the birth control stuff and our "libido" is just flat out nauseating!
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Huckabee is another idiot.. Sigh..
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But here is the mystery, Steph: WHY are their mothers, wives, sisters and daughters ALLOWING them to say this stuff?
We women will not be validated as thinking beings belonging fully to the Human Race until we assert ourselves as such.
WHY don't we? Who are these wimpy women who stand in the background smiling wanly and letting all the crap continue to be thrown on us all?
It really riles (did you guess that?) and totally mystifies me.
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"Jimmy Carter's next book will be a defense of women's rights and an attack against those who use religion to deny equality.
Simon & Shuster announced Tuesday that the former president's "A Call To Action: Women, Religion, Violence, and Power" will be published March 25. The publisher says Carter will draw upon personal observations from his worldwide travels as he condemns abuses of women and girls and the alleged distortions of religious texts cited as justification.
The 89-year-old has written a wide range of books since leaving office in 1981, from memoirs and poetry to a controversial work on the Middle East, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid." "
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Some how these Christian Right gurus have women convinced - seldom watch day time TV but snowed and iced in yesterday I was switching channels and stopped on Rachael Ray - some young cute blond and her cooking going on and on about how not like the Bible uses the word submit but she wants, and all the women applauded, to submit to her big strong husband and Rachael comes right in there talking about her husband and her submitting as she sits as the navigator and he drives but he better not drive where she is uncomfortable - I was appalled - we are talking leadership like the pyramid top down -
Over and over the experiments show with one leader over others there is always abuse of power. All these companies trying to teach teamwork and then they go home to the so called ideal marriage pyramid and then we wonder why women are second class and work for 77 cents to the dollar and have to fight to have the rights to our own body - we can get killed and maimed in war, put out major fires with the best of them, capture and shoot criminals, actually rise to the level of a CEO but at home we are to submit to the big strong leader called husband because it makes us feel all snugly girly and protected.
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There was a very interesting article in our newspaper yesterday - written by a man, who supports the introduction of quotas for women on company boards. He said he knew two high-flying women, one who agreed and the other who said this was unnecessary. He said that in his previous incarnation as a top lawyer, he had seen so many of his male colleagues talk the talk about equality - until the women left the room, or the men were at one of their numerous networking places - golf club, etc - whereupon they immediately reverted to their ingrained sexist attitudes. I must say this was also my experience when I was working in law - I didn't even need to leave the room, they were blatantly sexist about other women in my presence, and of course, if you didn't laugh you were a miserable old trout with no sense of humour....
Despite all this, one of these two females that he knew did not support the idea of quotas - I wonder why? Was it to keep in with her male colleagues and not be thought of as - whisper it low - a feminist?
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I like most of Jimmy Carter, but personally hated the Palestine one. No one seems to count all of the people murdered by the Palestinians..
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I have been thinking and thinking and thinking and pondering ever since finishing reading However Long The Night (Aimee Molloy), and obviously it had a very profound effect on me. This is the scenario I have come up with, based upon the African women seeming to be at one about "the tradition" going back thousands of years:
Men discovered (by some fluke accident no doubt) that they could magnify by a great deal the pleasure they enjoyed from the sex act if they removed the foreskin from their penises. Being men, this became a matter of prime importance to them, and they made a religious ceremony of it for all males at puberty. Semitic tribes, in particular the Jews, made this an individual rite of passage, while African tribes tended to induct annual age groups into this ritual. With some it started at birth, while others waited until around age twelve. I mean, the woman who first said "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament" had it so very right.
With so much additional pleasure available to men, they wanted more and more and more sex. They sought this in a number of ways, along the way making some of these such as plural wives and rape of enemy women legal, while sowing your oats afield and incest were religiously forbidden and slightly frowned upon among your peer group. They also wanted to preserve the property aspect to having wives, and African men discovered they could accomplish this end by taking away the sexual pleasure experienced by females. They did not care whether their "property" enjoyed or hated sex, just so long as they made it available to their husband owners. So they arranged that there be operations with sharp tools to remove clitorises. Then, having accomplished ascertaining their women would not seek sexual pleasure and their children would truly be theirs, they arranged that women, rather than men, would be the ones to perform these important rituals. That way no man would look upon the private parts of their future brides, and it would become a tradition that no woman who had not had this genital mutilation would be acceptable as a bride.
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In China, the impulse to keep their women from straying found another solution: foot binding. This cruel alteration of the body nature has given us hobbled women and literally kept them at home. Again, women were selected to be in charge of seeing to it that all little girls had this done to them, and only women with these tiny feet they could barely function on would be acceptable to the entire group as possible wives.
Same thing. Absolutely the same thing. Just different solutions.
The women of Africa came to believe GOD intended girl children be mutilated, and no mother wished her beloved daughters to be anything other than that which was commanded by God and acceptable to possible husbands.
The women of China came to believe GOD intended girl children be mutilated, and no mother wished her beloved daughters to be anything other than that which was commanded by God and acceptable to possible husbands.
All very cleverly choreographed by men!
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Marypage,
When my husband and I were trying to decide whether to circumcise our first son, no doctor would do it. Our own doctor said it would reduce the pleasure in his sex life, and cause unnecessary pain. We weren't keen anyway, but asking to have it done, brought a lecture down on people's heads. I think circumcision is rarely done now, anyway.
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Not so in the US.. circumcision is still relatively common.
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Very common, I would say.
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Today is fun... They have an all women crew today.Good for them. Jenna Bush Hager is developing nicely as a commentator.Who would have thunk...
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Going back a ways in those posting of the Christmas Song sung in Romanian Church. Strange as a large population of Romanians are Gypsies. They should remember how many of them went up in smoke along with the Jews in the camps. Thousands did. How soon the world forgets. And much as been forgotten or not taught.
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The Gypsy population seems to be not keen on any other population.. They obviously don't remember or care.
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According to a book I read about the history of Gypsies (Romany), they care very much about how the Facists killed their numbers. The thing is, they do not see a great deal of difference in that story from the history of their treatment in Europe.
In 1589 Denmark made a law that all gypsy leaders should be executed.
In 1630 Sweden declared all male gypsies should be hanged.
They used to cut off the ears of female gypsies: in Moravia the left one, in Bohemia the right.
The Archbishop of Mainz proclaimed that each and every gypsy should be executed without any conviction, as their way of life was outlawed.
In 1725, a law was passed in Prussia that all male gypsies should be executed without a trial; every single one over 14 years of age.
Just a skimming of the real history of these people. Just a small bit.
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Sounds interesting.. I guess my memories all involve my Dad saying each spring..Be careful the gypsies are here and sure enough, they would be camping somewhere not allowed and were prone to admiring our horses way too much and Dad would catch them, in the fields trying to see if the horse would go with them.. My Mother would feed the children if they appeared, but if you let them in the house, you could guarantee that stuff would be missing. The ones my age never ever went to school.
Once I caught a boy on my pony and riding off through a fence. He insisted it was his and my Dad had given it to him./ Thank heavens for one of the workers who kept our garden. He came, got the boy off the pony and told him that if he found him on the property again, he would tell Dad and call the police, So my memores of them are not nice
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They march to a different drummer, that's for sure. The itinerant life style, with take what you can get along the way being the rule. We have some communities, South Carolina being a state where there several enclaves, of rather permanent gypsies, and I can use that old saying about the purple cow, "I'd rather see than be one!"
There was a documentary about these a few years back.
Seems the men all leave in their pickups come Spring and make their fortunes over the warmer months, returning to their mansions in the Autumn. Yes, MANSIONS!
These are the ones who offer to fix your roof or gutters or driveway, and rip you off.
Some call them "the Irish Travelers," and most call them "the Travelers."
Something in the culture does seem to teach them to be con men.
Again, sadly, this is a generalization, and should not be applied to all.
But people are people, and I do not favor exterminating ANYone, nor will I hate! Be amazed and appalled, I will, but hatred? No. I will hate attitudes, but the people, no.
There are just one whole lot of old white men of power I would like to put naked in the public square of every town in America and let folk laugh at them for a day.
Might do 'em some good!
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In thinking about the approximately 800 years the Romany nomadic groups have been written about, and at the same time thinking about cultures formed within other exclusive tribes, I see similarities that seem to point to features of these societies that are bad for both them and those surrounding them.
Any group that is taught from birth to accept that those of their kind, and only those of their kind, are THE PEOPLE of a god, or the gods, or the universe, or what have you, is just flat out inviting discrimination. They are exuding it toward others and causing their own people to have utter disdain for others, thus engendering lawless behavior toward others and engendering hatred toward their own kind from those very others.
Psychologically, the people of such cultures are crippling their own children by denying them any real knowledge of the ways of the countries they reside in, of the laws protecting both them and the peoples they regard as of no account, and of the nonsectarian general education available to them which would so help them to fit in, while at the same time preserving their own traditions.
Knowledge is everything.
Ignorance is so very damaging to all.
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MaryPage - problem you are talking about just about every religious affiliation that ever existed except perhaps a few of the Asian religions although, I understand from several Buddhist friends they too have various groups within Buddhism and they all think the other groups are worthless at best and vile at worst.
There is no cooperation or approval from various Christian groups for other Christian groups or from their ancient roots Judaism, who have no truck for Muslims and on it goes each thinking they are the special chosen ones and unless you abide by their rules, like the Amish you are shunned or put out or excommunicated or whatever the definition is to keep the other members pure.
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I just don't think, though, that there is any other old closed society quite as closed to outsiders as the Romany. I may be mistaken, of course. You just do not hear of them leaving their people OR of them taking in others. You do hear of them kidnapping babies and very small children and getting fresh blood and genes into their pool in that manner, but that is not quite the same as allowing in people raised in other cultures.
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Yes, you are right for people in the world the only ones that I know of that are as insular are the Amish but they stay put mostly working the land and they have more of their own babies than they can afford to buy farms for them when they grow up. Another set of issues but they do not vote or join the army or pay taxes - I do not know but I wonder if they pay sales taxes on the sales from the shops that have sprung up selling their merchandise. Except for the original problem they faced in Germany that got them to the US, Canada and Mexico they have not been hated as the Gypsies and they are not as old a group either.
Yes, there are many who have really been brutalized for their race and religion but then it seems to me that every traditional group keeps itself as it was by holding their members close and not being open and that keeps separation alive yet, I think traditional groups living within their old lifestyles is an addition to our society but it sure engenders suspicion by those not included.
I thought the series done by PBS on the Amish was especially enlightening and wish that all groups that live out of the mainstream or from other parts of the world were explained as well as the producers explained the Amish.
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Another set of issues but they do not vote or join the army or pay taxes - I do not know but I wonder if they pay sales taxes on the sales from the shops that have sprung up selling their merchandise.
Barbara...It sounds like the documentary you saw was full of incorrect information.
There are 9 other items listed as well that many outside of the Amish area seem to not know.
6. Do the Amish pay taxes?
Amish and Mennonites do pay taxes like other Americans. However, because of their belief in the community’s call to help one another, including the elderly, in times of need, they do have objections to paying the social security tax. Only those who are self-employed have been exempt from paying social security taxes and regardless of whether or not they pay the tax, few accept the benefits. All other taxes are paid without question.
http://traveltusc.com/top-10-questions-about-the-amish/
Also
9. Is it true they don’t go to war?
The Amish and Mennonites believe that by resisting violence, they are following Jesus Christ’s example. They also believe in his exhortation to “turn the other cheek.” Because the Bible declares that Jesus did not resist the beating and crucifixion, the Amish and Mennonites seek to emulate him. Rather than serve in the military while the draft was still in effect, the two groups generally found alternative ways to serve their country by working in hospitals or some other form of community service.
http://traveltusc.com/top-10-questions-about-the-amish/
And other references you can check:
This from the county next to the one above and home to the largest Amish settlement in the world:
http://blog.garden-gate.com/2011/02/10-myths-about-amish-from-holmes-county.html
Q: Do the Amish pay taxes?
A: Yes. They pay all the taxes—income, property, sales, estate, corporate, school—that other people do. In fact many of them pay school taxes twice—for both public and private Amish schools. The US Congress exempted the Amish from participating in Social Security in 1965 because the Amish viewed it as a form of commercial insurance, which they opposed. They believe that members of the church should care for each others’ physical and material needs. Thus, most of them do not pay into Social Security or receive payments from it. In some states, the Amish have also been exempted from workers compensation (insurance for on-the-job injuries) for the same reason. See Government for more information.
http://www2.etown.edu/amishstudies/FAQ.asp
http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-pay-taxes/
You may not agree about their lifestyle choices or beliefs. I don't, however, like to see misinformation spread about those who choose a life different from what most of us lead.
Jane
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I grew up surrounded by Amish and yes, I agree, they do pay taxes, they do alternative or at least did alternative service, generally in health fields.. They pay in and get no benefits from social security.. or medicare. Or at least the ones I knew did.The community takes care of the elderly, sick, etc. I have a dear dear friend , who is Amish.She was sent away and trained as a nurse by the community and has spent her adult life living in the smallmedical center and caring for all.. She is also a midwife... I admire the Amish,, but I think the proverbial Travelers or Gypsies or hard to love.. At least when I was growing up and had horses and dogs, both of which they love to sort of spirit away.
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Steph....I, too, grew up near the world's largest Amish community (Holmes County, Ohio) and still live now in Iowa near a new community of Amish who split from their former Bishop over how much work the young men could do among the "English" [the non-Amish] community. They're now often in our little town of 5,000 to shop at our grocery store and WalMart and FarmFleet. They come occasionally with horses and wagon or buggy or more often in a van service.
Jane
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Thanks for the info - I wonder if I mis understood and they were talking about Soc Sec but they had someone standing in front of a group of tourists that were going to get a bus trip through the Amish country and the guy said they do not pay taxes.
I was fascinated with the show and never had more than a passing realization of the Amish. I did visit a community of Mennonites in Mexico and learned the history of how they were forced from the US and Mexico accepted them - the town is funny in that all the signs, mostly blackboard for meals and other products is written in both German and Spanish since in town there are equally both groups of people.
I am conflicted with how folks can live in peace when many of these religious groups are not only very insular but some have this radical idea that others of the same cultural and religious persuasion should follow their conservative and traditional views. I do not see that as the ways of the little I know of either the Amish or the Mennonites but it has become rampant among the Christian Right in this country, in my own Christian persuasion that often shocks me and then in other parts of the world the battlefield is real between and among religious groups.
It is sad and a conundrum - where I admired the Amish lifestyle as presented by the series on PBS I did see it was emotionally damaging to those who leave the Amish community and to some of the women who stay which made me see this seems to be what happens in many families as the children go on to a life different than their parents. My daughter sees it all the time where she lives among the mountain families when the children change the concept that they cannot be smarter than their Dad and I had that pull when we became part of a professional lifestyle rather than working class lifestyle. Interesting to me is that it was only 3, 4 or 5 generations before that family moved across oceans and adapted a life that was not the traditional life of what they left.
Seeing both sides - the progressive and traditional in conflict makes me dwell on how they can come together to accomplish what both need.
Not going to war to me is not a rebuke but an observation - no one in my family was the right age during the wars so we do not have that experience either however, I wonder, if we believe in peace and the sanctity of life is that something we can feel good about if we decide others should do the fighting. There are many of us and many groups who avow peace that are able to live safe from warfare because of others. I do not know but looking at this nation as a large community, how do we think about tradition and progression, the individual versus the community etc.
Is it a fantasy that we had been able to live leaving each other alone or has this tug of war between differences always existed and we simply have a goal to live peacefully - here of late it seems the traditionalists have made the life of women less valued as well as gays - then I see how this is normal among certain religions which is what starts me on this whole question of traditional religious views.
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My experience with the Amish and Mennonites in our area has made me uncomfortable with their choices. There seems to be a bit of opportunism in the way they take advantage of certain aspects of technology, especially the men.
I do know some Mennonites who not only draw Social Security but also have no problem with Medicare or even some of the Medicaid programs. That's not wrong - they worked hard and paid their taxes, so they have just as much right as any other citizen.
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I have a huge admiration for the Amish and all those like groups, BUT. But I think their insularity is making very serious medical problems for them, and is yet another reason for not being so separated from the main stream flow of our civilization. They are experiencing some rather severe genetic illnesses.
Inbreeding, to put it indelicately. It is the same for human mammals as it is for all others. Inbreeding causes problems. That is the main reason for all of the "designer" dog breeds springing up these days. They are trying to breed dogs without the problems our favorite "pure blood" breeds are now experiencing. Hips that fail early on in labs and German shepherds, for instance. You did not see much of that when I was young, and now it has pretty much taken over and ruined those breeds, while other breeds suffer those and/or other physical disasters.
Yes, I truly believe insularity to be a huge mistake. There is a fascinating article in NEWSWEEK, which has gone electronic and now my subscription comes to me on my iPad, about the large number of support groups springing up all over the country for Mormons who are leaving the church. Seems they never even thought of leaving before, for the church was their everything. But now they have computers and go on line and read things they never had access to before. Well, I am not going to get into the particulars, because I am not trying to point fingers or take sides or gloat or anything of that sort. I am just fascinated, and it is yet another example of the wrongness of trying to sell any, ANY, given group on "facts" that do not fit with what can be proved to be otherwise. You can deny and deny and deny, but eventually, maybe not for hundreds of years, but EVENTUALLY you have to bend to Truth. The Vatican and Galileo are a great example of this. It took 400 years!
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The Amish and Mennonites are funny in some ways. They don't have electricity in their homes, but often in their barns for milking and a computer to keep track of records.. They have a community phone in a small shed like an outhouse.. At least where I grew up, they still do.Some of the communities allow very plain cars, others no.. I would guess they can claim social security if they paid in, but the farmers would really never have this come up.
Leaving the community is hard, but there are large support groups in Delaware that help them. My grandparents took in several young males from the community when they wanted to leave the home farm. They worked on my Granddads farm and then went to work for my Dad in his Commercial construction company. Several of them went back to the community with an out of the community wife.This mostly does not work too well.
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I actually saw that telephone thing up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Steph. Farms without electricity or phone back off the road, as farms often are, but a little wooden shed phone booth, looking just exactly like an outhouse from the outside, down by the mailboxes. That is where they keep the telephone. For emergency calls, such as police or firemen. Too funny!
We have an Amish market on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays up at Annapolis Harbour Center. They open at 8:30 on Thursdays and are closed and out of there by 3:00 on Saturdays. They come down from Pennsylvania and stay in motels. There is a special fleet of "Englishmen" who are in business just to drive them back and forth in vans. So they all get to stay in motels with electricity and television and all the trimmings for 2 nights each week, and get driven back and forth in vans they cannot own and drive themselves!
And they are called the plain people, but I do not think this is all good plain common sense!
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P.S. The food is GREAT, and I shop there all of the time. They also sell furniture and other homemade stuff, and tons of preserves and such. You cannot, I repeat, cannot beat their meats! So good and so safe and so cheap!
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I come from the Eastern shore, so I grew up on and adore Scrapple. And the amish are the very best makers.. The frozen stuff elsewhere does not taste right. Whenever I go back to Delaware, I have scrapple every single morning.
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I am so accustomed to the fact that you have lived EVERYwhere, Steph, that I have never pinpointed your nativehood.
So you are from the DELMARVA, and in particular the DEL portion thereof?
Son in law Greg, whose construction company I labor on the books for, is building a gorgeous home in Rehoboth Beach, as I write. For a client, not for himself. Well, now that I have you fixed, at it were, I can tell you my star should be placed in the northern Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. So hey there, Yankee Friend! Waving at your place on the map from mine!
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Actually I was born and grew up until marriage on the southern end of
Delaware.We refer to it in Delaware as south of the canal and it is quite southern.
A teeny little town,, Wyoming,Delaware which is about five miles south of the capitol, Dover.. Still mostly farms, lot of amish.. orchards, etc.
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I'm doing a presentation tonight "Invisible Women of the Civil Rights Movement" at the Alice Paul Chapter of NOW. Here are some of the resources i've used. The Washington Post site is particularly interesting since it gives you other good links to browse.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/08/27/honor-the-dream-by-honoring-the-women-of-the-movement/
This USAToday site gives an interesting story of how women were sidelined at the '63 March on Washington. I found a quote from Dorothy Height who said the March event opened her eyes. "The men included women in the human family, but it was clear that they were head if the household."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/19/march-on-washington-women/2648011/
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I always wondered about the civil rights movement.There were so really brave women, but the actual movement seemed to be very male.. The anti Viet Nam also, although as a quaker, I participated from our meeting house and that was equal as always.
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Steph: the leaders were all male, but there were plenty of women involved. In fact, some of the participants in the Women's Movement became active when they saw how sexist some of those in the Civil Rights movement were.
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I am overcome with something I have just read about which makes absolutely no sense to me. Not so much as a scintilla of sense.
It says that a number of Southern states, and the number is apparently growing, have instituted what they call a "fairness doctrine" in their SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS which consists of, "in all fairness to those who believe otherwise," stating that the scientifically proved facts about evolution and global warming are just theories, and may not be true at all.
Public education paid for by tax dollars is DENYING SCIENCE!
Can you Believe that?
I do agree with the policy of not mentioning that Santa Claus is a myth prior to the 4th grade, but this is for High School!
Oh Please tell me it isn't so!
What in the name of every good thing since time began has FAIRNESS got to do with FACTS? And how can ANYone justify spending tax dollars to teach our children that myths may be true and that untruths they have learned are okay?
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MaryPage...I believe it's rather widespread, esp. in the so-called "Bible Belt."
Teacher Accused of Preaching About the Bible, Bashing Evolution and Calling Non-Believers ‘Stupid’ — and Now This Family Is Suing
A mother and father are suing a Louisiana school district in federal court, alleging religious harassment of their child and claiming that Christianity is routinely forced upon students.
Scott and Sharon Lane and their five kids, who filed their complaint against Sabine Parish School District in U.S. District Court on Wednesday, are being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union.
Further into the report:
The family claims that, in addition to proclaiming that people are unintelligent if they do not believe in God, the teacher reportedly told students that world was created 6,000 years ago, that the Bible is true and that evolution is an impossibility, according to the Post.
The complaint also alleges that she called the student’s Buddhism stupid during a lesson on the subject.
See entire article here: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/24/it-is-oppression-parents-sue-school-district-after-science-teacher-reportedly-called-people-who-dont-believe-in-god-stupid/
I've heard some of this comes from the misunderstanding of the word "theory" and not comprehending what the scientific community means by that word. Another element is probably those who believe in what I guess is called Biblical literalism.
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I do not understand why, when true and real facts are so very important to the SURVIVAL of our species, and when history and science show us that most species have become extinct, human beings with working brains up their under their skulls will cohere as a group and become downright suicidal in their intense insistence upon clinging to their pieced together over the millennia mythological beliefs!
Fundamentalist Christians seem to be doing this very thing. So do Mormons. And neither one of those groups seem to stop and contemplate that suicide bombers are actually trying desperately to hold on to and have remain dominant in their world THEIR OWN SET OF BELIEFS!
Then there is the Vatican, trying to hold on to THEIR control and sense of the world as it should be, as opposed to what it is and the sins THEY have committed against the very society who trusted them.
Now the Grand Old Party of the Republic seems to be committing their own brand of suicide. Cutting their own throats in order to continue insisting upon a system of economics that can only bring us another failure of huge proportions such as 2008 (Bush) or 1929 (Hoover).
People suffer in large numbers when leaders remain intransigent. People thrive when leaders learn and understand and apply facts in the field.
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Lemmings. Lemmings is what these groups consist of. Millions of otherwise fine men and women blindly following their leadership right OVER the cliff!
No doubt they take great comfort in their numbers; their togetherness.
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I live in Florida and know that you would never believe the number of letter writers to the newspaper, who simply cannot grip evolution.. So sad .
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Marypage - you might want to check out booktv. They are talking about Imagine: Living in a Socialist USA. Frances Goldin, 89 yrs old, still an activist, is on the panel. It's 9:55 and it just came on, but you can see it online or maybe later today on tv if you miss it now
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Oh Jean! I missed it. It is 11:41 here, and I just finished watching my morning talk shows. Sunday morning church for me is CBS then ABC then CBS again and then NBC. Sunday Morning and then George Stephanopolous and then Face The Nation and then Meet The Press. Have to keep up, you know!
My favorite, well, let's face it, the ONLY sport I fancy in the Olympics was due to come on this morning. Still waiting to hear if the Jamaica Bobsled team made it. One can always hope!
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The hockey game was spectacular.. not even for a medal, but oh wow.. and the crowd went mad..
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The Jamaicans came in 29th out of a field of 30.
Seems the Serbians crashed. And the Jamaicans didn't.
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Lots on the internet today about the reporter who kept asking Bode Miller about the death of his brother until Bode completely broke down and walked away. Guess anything for ratings! I wonder how the ratings will be for these Olympics?
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Not all Monuments Men were men........
http://museumethics.org/2014/02/not-all-monuments-men-were-men/
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Jean, What a wonderful article. It was amazing and of course now they have found a huge treasure trove hidden by the son of a art dealer in Germany.. How many things must have come home with GI's and are still sitting in someones attic. That is sad.
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Lots of the art work that was found never got given back to the original owners. Many had died in the camps but the Jewish organizations still finding art hanging in museums and places where some relatives are alive. The one museum in London just had to return some a few years ago. Other people know there are rightful owners but still have many hidden away.
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Human greed about things from war is amazing. They know they have stolen and refuse to consider giving it back. Or worse, the Taliban tears it down and destroys ancient artifacts.. Things never to be recovered. That should be a crime that is punished, but wont.
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To me one of the most colossal injustices in this world is the British holding on to Greece's "Elgin" marbles. Imagine stealing frescoes and sculptures from THE PARTHENON! Scheesch! And they justify it, or try to, that is, by saying that Lord Elgin "discovered" them. I beg your pardon!
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MaryPage,, many years ago , this person raised in a small town, out in the country, went to a comprehensive school ( farm type), off to U. Of Delaware, but it was later when I heard the term Elgin Marbles..So when my husband and I did our first trip in London in the 70'd, on my list was the British Museum, the Rosetta stone ( At that point, you could actually touch it) and the Elgin Marbles. Imagine my surprise when it was a marble frieze, not marbles as I thought of them.. Amazing, I was so embarrassed.. But you are right. Most museums have items that belong to another country and none of them are likely to give them back..Sad.
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I'm assuming that many if you know about Grace Hopper, but this is such a good, informative article, i thought i'd add it........
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/amazing-grace-hopper-computer-programmer/
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Steph, I believe I was in the 9th grade at a prep school when our amazing Ancient History teacher, who was well traveled, explained about the marbles. I believe that was where and when, but I am flaky these days.
But thinking "marbles" makes perfect sense to me, so no embarrassment is due from you to yourself. Scheesch!
Have been trying without much success to get folk in SeniorLearn and Seniors & Friends to read what I consider to be one of the ALL TIME great essays. I mean, it will be listed right up there with Charles Lamb's A Dissertation Upon Roast Pig for me! And William Allen White's "Mary White."
I urge you to get the double issue of THE NEW YORKER dated February 17 & 24. It has the annual cartoon of Eustace Tilley on the cover. This year he is made up of lit up skyscraper windows against a dark sky. Go to page 60 and read THIS OLD MAN by Roger Angell. You will laugh and you will cry. And in the end, you will feel all the better for having experienced it. I swear!
Angell is royalty at The New Yorker, but to have written this piece at 93 blows me away. To have written it at ANY age is quite remarkable, but I guess the truth is you would have to be his age to get it down right. By the way, he is son of the famous Katharine White. Well born, well bred, well educated and an incredible writer. I could just wish (I am an all time prude) he had not indulged, as almost all males will, in joke telling. Otherwise, this piece is beyond perfection, Steph, and I hope you will manage to read it. Also you, Jean, and Barbara.
Angell wrote his FIRST piece for The New Yorker in 1944.
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Thanks, Jean. Being from this section of the country, I am well up on Admiral Hopper. But my terrible memory was telling me that she, too, (like Angell), was working into her nineties. I was mistaken, obviously, after reading here that she retired at 80.
I agree she is wonderful to read about. I can remember seeing her interviewed on television, too. Do not remember whether it was local or national. Probably local.
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I, too, knew of her. What an amazing woman. I always wished I could have seen the faces of young men who didn't know of her and her accomplishments when they realized who she was and all she knew. ;)
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Ah the young, who are convinced they know everything and then discover somewhat later, probably not..
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Wasn't she on 60 Minutes once? Years ago, I think it was. When she was still working.
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That could have been it. She was still in the Navy, though in her 60's maybe, and I watched fascinated by her.
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Isaw the 60 minutes quite a long time ago. Fascinating what a woman did with so little fanfare.
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It is built in, Steph. Women accomplish a lot quietly, while men accomplish very little with great fanfare. Knew ye not?
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I do agree, but she did a lot of things that should have gotten attention right away.
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But when they gave out bullhorns, they all went to men.
Men who were not about to use them to cheer about a woman's success.
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I am starting to get uncomfortable about The Texas woman.. Davis?? Wendy, I think. She really seems to have stretched her story into something entirely different. Now she speaks as if going to Harvard to law school and leaving two young children behind with a husband was strictly for them.. and that's hooey...l
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But why should she be challenged about going to law school and "leaving her children behind" with her husband, in the first place??? Really!?! Has any man ever been asked such a question, or had any denigrating comments about him furthering his education and his job options and "leaving his children behind"? Altho my husband and i were a good parenting TEAM, i had no concerns leaving him in charge of the children when i had to travel for my job. He is also their parent. Mothers, theoretically, are no more important as a parent, as Fathers, altho some Fathers have been allowed to shy away from that responsibility. If Davis didn't improve her skills and went on welfare as a single mom, or lived solely on child support and alimony (usually a very poor living) her critics would be calling her a welfare queen, or parasite. I wish they would make up their minds!
I smiled ruefully to myself when my DH got invited to dinner when i was out of town, as though he couldn't feed himself and the children, and NOBODY invited ME to dinner when he was out of town!!! ;D
This kind of hypocrisy is one of my top five pet peeves.
Jean
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I agree, Jean. If the mother were the one left with the children, who would have questioned it?
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JEAN, I am with you all the way on this one.
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The opposition is doing everything they can to hang Wendy for NOT being a 1950s woman - She is strong and has Ann Richards daughters behind her and Ann Richards was a formidable governor. If she wins she changes the dynamics of the last 20 years in this state.
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Do you really, really, really realize what we are up against re the attitude of a very large and very determined contingent of the opposite sex regarding the status of women vis a vis the superior perogatives of all males?
I am serious. And yes, I exempt my beloved late husband, and many other dear souls who were born male, from this indictment. However, too many women just quickly brush off any mention of this subject and refuse to even consider for a nanosecond that such a mindset is controlling the fate of billions of members of the female gender. My husband COMPLETELY agreed with me!
So they set out to ruin any woman who dares defy their edicts! Wendy Davis will receive the full blast of their ire.
DID YOU KNOW? Seriously, did you know that in 31 states of these United States of America if a woman becomes pregnant from a rape and keeps the baby she can be sued for custody or visitation rights by the rapist father? This is a true fact. This can mean a lifetime of connection to and with her rapist for any woman who dares to keep the child.
At this moment, Ohio, New Hampshire and Vermont are considering changing their laws. In Ohio, State Senator Nina Turner has introduced the "Protect Rape Survivors" bill. Now we shall see if the men will yet again stop legislation protecting women from men guilty of this vicious crime.
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No, darn it all. She did not go to a local law school and at least one of the children was not her current husband at the time.She went all the way from Texas to Harvard. That is quite a different situation from my point of view. I am really saying that I don't like that she prettied up the story and made herself a genuine heroine... Maybe she is and maybe not. I loved Ann Richards, but have no thoughts on her children and politics.
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My husband went "all the way" to various places through the years, leaving me alone and later with the kids, to earn money, to expand his education, to serve our country. Many men do this. Why can't a woman? And wouldn't it be better to keep the children in a familiar environment? What makes it wrong to go to a school that might give a person a better chance at a high-paying job? It's all in perspective, I think. I don't know that she "prettied" up her story so much as shortened it and cut out some facts that some people seem to have grasped as more important than others.
I'm sorry, but right now our state is living through a Governor who has prettied up his own story, and we're told to ignore that and various other omissions and questionable political maneuvers. He's a man - apparently that gives him a bye?
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Massachusetts may be a far piece from Texas but I have worked with many Asians who think nothing of their daughters and even their wives, that are mothers of young children, coming here to the US, alone to attend college and medical school - mostly Chinese and Indonesians - almost makes them, both men and the women appear more liberated. When I helped the first mom I was amazed and then as I helped other Asian moms along with Asian teenage sons and daughters going to UT, I quickly learned, to them education is the most valued goal in life.
Yes, the young ones buy a condo and the mature, most often the Moms get a small house - Asian families do their money very differently - everyone in the family, sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, grandparents put all their money into one account with an agreed upon monthly stipend for each member and then when a large purchase is requested there is one family members that runs the account and they have to look at the request to see if all the family needs a say-so before approval - then after they find a property the one running the account must approve and with the time difference when our market is hot that can pose a problem but we have done it and they have successfully purchased. With this way of handling money the credit is excellent and they are able to get the best interest rates.
When they move on for their job or go back to their family upon graduating more often the property remains as an investment and leased using a property managing company. Some do sell using the proceeds to buy, if they remain in the US, again, with the family account managers approval. When they do buy a more permanent, after graduating home there is always one room more than needed to accommodate parents who alternate with their "mate's" parents every other year for 6 months and so a couple here have 6 month visits every year.
Over the years I have worked with about 60 Asian families or singles - None from Japan but Hong Cong, China, Taiwan, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Indonesia, Korea, Laos, Pakistan - The only one who did not follow the family banking plan was the women I helped from Pakistan. Her husband ran out on her which is considered a divorce and her sister helped her so she bought a small motel for herself and her two middle school age kids to run and live in.
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Barb, how interesting.. Extended families do things quite differently. I do know a young oriental woman, who came to California to marry . She was born in China.. She had two children fairly quickly and he abandoned her. She had an Aunt who lived in Florida, came here and started working in restaurants. She is now a partner and manager of a small Chinese restaurant here, bought a house two years ago (that was such an exciting day for her), makes her children do extra homework , because she considers American schools as too lenient and is bursting with pride and joy. Two weeks ago, she told me that she had sent for her Mother in China and she would be arriving soon.. No idea if she has brothers and sisters still there, but she wanted her Mom.. I am so proud of her. We met because I eat alone most of the time and love Chinese. I always read and one day a few years ago,I was reading an Amy Tan and she touched it and said she had read that too. We started to talk and since it was after lunch, she sat down and we talked and talked. A very sweet girl,,
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Steph and Barbara, you have each had interesting experiences which I envy you for having. How lovely!
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I love listening to her stories of China.. child rearing and the man she was briefly married to. She loves to hear about where I have lived, since she hopes someday to travel all over the US..She loved the RV stories..
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Yes, Steph and Barbara, thanks for sharing those interesting stories. Barb, i had no idea about that concept of investing by Asians. I knew that education was important, but didn't understand the process, that's fabulous. How smart and it's nice to hear that at least some of them are not sexist about the process.
Jean
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Yes, I remember one young women - all of 16 who came and was referred to me - her brother came after a couple of weeks and stayed for about 2 months - her family believed to get into UT with the increased demands for high placement scores she should attend two years of High School in American - I could see the fear in her eyes but she gutsed up - we found her a condo in a good safe area not next to the university where she could walk to grocery stores, cleaners and a couple of small neighborhood restaurants and where she could peddle her bike to get a bus on quiet streets. Our buses have bike racks. Her brother helped her enroll in school and a friend from Indonesia who lived in another area of town acted as her guardian - the brother went back and then 7 or 8 months later her mom came for nearly a year and yep, she got into UT. Upon graduation she got a good job in Kansas City as some sort of Bio Technician in medicine and her brother is now here in America after doing a masters at UT he is over in Houston.
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Steph - isn't it great when you meet someone like that in the least likely circumstances? A woman came into the gallery where I volunteer recently and asked me about places to have lunch in the area. We got chatting and now we meet for coffee or lunch from time to time - she is such a good and interesting person, as is her partner, who is a psychotherapist here in Edinburgh. The partner had a foster son who died a few years ago; he was severely disabled by cerebral palsy. Undaunted, they took him all over the world on holidays, and Caragh has told me about all the joy and light he brought into their lives. They are both practising Buddhists, which is also a fascinating thing for me to learn about.
I would probably never have met her if I hadn't been in the gallery that one morning she decided to visit Haddington.
Rosemary
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Buddha, Now that is a religion that I would love to sit and discuss with a practioner.. Yes, every once in a while in my life, I have met someone under casual circumstances and they turned out to be a good and true person who really changed me in many ways.l
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One of my daughters, the eldest, has become a Buddhist. Can't remember the dates for sure now, but I think she has been one for, oh, thirty years or more. I have a number of DVDs of documentaries on the subject, and the lecture The Great Courses (The Teaching Company) puts out is marvelous. Just about everyone in my family has watched that one.
My problem is that I have a sense of an all seeing eye within my brain that searches into the deepest, fartherest recesses of our history and tells me that all religions are man made. Not from "God" at all, but made up fantasies by men who have a natural born tendency to organize other humans. We each of us have a deep need for reassurance and immortality, and these stories of heaven and forever afterwards fulfill that need. In many instances, these power broker shamans have used a person who was something of a leader or innovator when alive and around whom it is easy to quickly build up a word of mouth around the fireside kind of folklore. If they died a violent death, all the better; i.e., Joseph Smith and Jesus of Nazareth. There is also a deep need within us to worship. Worshipping a god figure can actually be better for our ability to live our daily lives in a fairly normal way than to worship a person. People who have worshipped Elvis Presley or Jim Jones, for instance, can be pretty unstable. Women seem to have a deep need to adore men, accompanied by a willingness to blindly follow and obey them. Being a dedicated feminist, I, of course, deplore this. But this is my vision, be it right or wrong. I wish there to be a forever for what I see as "Me." I do not expect it. Sincerely. And please know that in sharing my thoughts with you, I am NOT trying to convert you to my way of thinking. Not at all. Sincerely.
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I'm with you on that, MaryPage. Well said!
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I have not followed any religion since my early teens. Questioned it then and got no good answers. I have read about the Buddhist and met people who follow it. We have 2 of their meeting places in my area. Listening is quite interesting.
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I have a Thai daughter-in-law who is a Buddhist. I haven't met her yet, so I don't know how seriously she follows the religion. I envied her in the heat and madhouse of pre Christmas shopping, and organising. Easter is always about how many will die terribly on the roads, and leave broken hearted families.
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I do not think of Buddhism as a religion, truly I don't. I know, there are a lot of traditions associated with it, but they are not all that important, really. Building stupas and the like. There is no dogma, no rite, no required anything. No baptism or confirmation or initiation or any such. It is more a way of thinking and aspiration. You try hard to reach perfection. You meditate a lot. And pray.
There are what can be thought of as rites in connection with some of the traditions. But you can be a Buddhist all by yourself alone without any of that stuff.
There are stages to be reached and passed in your journey toward perfection.
At least, this is my view of it.
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That of course if why I became a quaker. I liked the fact that they are doers.. and that your behavior is up to you and your inner light. and we affirm and only do things in the meeting house if all agree. None of that voting rules stuff.. Buddist strike me as something of the same.
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Yes, that is the way it strikes me, too, Steph.
One thing I think of as something of a surprise is this: when I was a child and did the old fashioned Christian thing of Sunday School, church, the church family and community warm fuzzy feeling thing and the sense of goodness and belonging, with God being Love and children being safe, I think, although it really never came up, but I think I sort of felt in the recesses of my mind behind all of this, that if I were an agnostic, which I now am, that I would feel free to "sin" and be a bad person.
Well, in my church community, we were raised to love all souls, no matter what or who they were, and not to judge. We were most especially cautioned that Jesus said it was a sin to judge. Now I feel the Fundamentalists have ruined all of that aspect of Christianity with their constant judging and condemning and outright hating.
But to my great astonishment, now that I am indeed an agnostic (there may be a Creator! But we cannot possibly describe such or personalize such or know such, much less think the ME is all important!), I find my total thoughts and emotions run to the fact that I am a member of this species, the human race, as we call it, and that I owe it to my entire species to be the very best person I can be and to be of infinite help to each and every other member of this species, beginning with those of my own blood, sensibly, I think, as I cannot possibly extend myself to the entire population out there on the skin of this planet.
In short, I believe I am a truly better person as an agnostic than ever I was as a Christian! Who knew!
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I think most organized religions have two sides - the spiritual wrapped up in ceremony, prayer that can involve silence, meditation and contemplation all which touches some inner core of our being and then there is the political side that includes the rules and regs established to enable members to stay 'good' within, what their society determined was 'good' and to assist members into mindful spiritual behavior.
And, because there are 'members' just as in a family or any small group but especially, as the group becomes larger politics, control, power enter the picture - Either a group believes as Aristotle that punishment is how to control or as Aquinas who suggests love, as in putting honey on the carrot that is showing the group how well they can blend, lead and serve, which is determined by our need to be loved. If we are 'good' and if we can make others be 'good' then we believe we are more loveable within the group.
I see this enacted in families - I see differences in my own children and the basic philosophy they used as parents - one expected the highest application of their boys talents to go for the brass ring in sports and academics developing their ability to think through the best behavior - misbehavior was not the issue, it was 'what were you thinking - where was your brain' - the church they chose was an intellectual approach to God - while the other child, as a parent saw sports as a tool to develop skills and attitude but essentially the children were to figure out their life on their terms and learn how to adjust after making a choice that did not work out - when they were learning how to behave as youngsters, they were never scolded without being kissed on the head - the aspect of life they were urged to excel in was being the best brothers to each other and to making friends and they were brought up in a traditional Anglican church with an emphasis on ceremony and bible stories.
And yes, I put it down to sibling rivalry, they each comment, not accepting or understanding each other's parenting thinking their's is better - ah so and is it any different among some clergy that judge who is doing it right or the best and is it any different among members of churches who become more concerned with how right their fellow members are behaving - it is as if we are all co-dependent - unless you act as I understand and approve I cannot be right, which means I may not be loved by those in the congregation as well as, the biggie, God may not love me.
Because bottom line that is what it is all about - if I think, then I am loved - if I am a good brother and friend, I am loved - if I act as the group in the church suggest, I am loved - if I follow the rules and regs of the church or the government, I am loved and do not face being ostracized which in a judicial society means jail.
We can as Aristotle, who did not perceive God as the compassionate, he believes people are basically out for themselves and need to be punished into compliance or as Aquinas, when he was re-writing Aristotle given the message of Jesus that we can cajole good behavior with love appealing to their inner disposition for the common good and to address their fears.
Both attitudes seem to be alive and well and so the differences in how to be loveable are played out in just about every aspect of life, within the church and between church groups. I must admit when I became fearful for my children's ability to learn how to be loveable, Aristotle had my vote till they were older and punishment seemed over the top - but today, I realize how often I instinctively look at a punishment solution before I can see the humanity within someone who has hurt me or others.
As to a relationship with God, my best friend believes in, God will know her by her acts of Good Will where as my childhood was a training in God gave us everything including our ability to see where acts of Good Will are needed therefor, our relationship is based in a ceremony of adoration and an inner finding through contemplation, neither for my friend are the 'doing' she places as paramount to our purpose here on earth.
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I live right bye a new building for a "Quaker Meeting house" would really like to see what happens in their meeting. I met some when they had a yard sale last summer , Should have mentioned that. Now a Pentecostal one bought the land next to me to build a church. They were very excited to know my name was Pentecost. They sold for lack of funds. I was glad in away. A man from India bought the 20 acres as he owners the business west of it..
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For those of you who at any time have stopped in at "The Story of Civilization", we're in the middle if the "Reformation." I asked the question "has any institution ever created as much violence as religion has?" I just have no concern for organized religion any more. I am sick of hearing people say "Thank you god," or "god was with him, " when something good has happened, and every time i talk to the tv saying "Does that mean god didn't care about the people who had bad things happen to them?" It just infuriates me. I don't understand their rationalization. I wish someone could expain it to me.
I watched "Nixon" and "W" movies today. They could be very scary to a (small d) democrat. Both of those guys were so needy, which is what motivated them to try to be president. Bush said his becoming pres was "a divine plan"!!! So many people have used that as an excuse for whatever they wanted to justify. That's one of the reasons i have become an agonistic in my old age.
By the way, Paul Sorvino was fabulous as Kissinger in the Nixon movie. I can't believe he didn't get an Oscar nomination for it. His voice and accent were spot on.
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Jeanne,, their are many types of quakers. I am a Philadelphia Quaker, we have no ministers, etc no preaching.The meeting house is a dedicated place of silence and contemplation. If you feel impelled, you can stand and speak., Many do every single week and many never say anything. Other than Viet Nam, I am in the silent ones..You learn how to rely on yourself,, look within and realize what and how you must act to remain true to the principles.
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I too think this public thanking God for every good fortune is over the top...however, if God is everything, (I am not sure those who are publicly thanking God see God as a power since they usually say 'him') - then, if there is a major force that exploded with the big bang many consider that force God -
There were many figures throughout history who not only lived a spiritual life but also, influenced others to improve their spiritual life - the one in the western hemisphere that got the biggest press is Jesus - so much so that those who followed the ways of Jesus over many centuries embroidered the 'cult' to embrace their familiar culture till we have folks believing their version was set in stone those 2000+ years ago - so that today, their concept of God is wrapped up in the Jesus 'cult' that includes the Bible telling his story and the added ceremonies and beliefs that became part of their belief system. All that to say who knows which version of God they are thanking - my gut says the one wrapped up in the story of Jesus - and interesting they seldom thank God for painful experiences.
Our families way of coping with this phenomenon is - in our brain or thought pattern we substitute instantly the word God for Goodness - The old serenity prayer comes in handy - there are too many of those who have adapted this habit to change - we can either let it get to us or find away around it and smile.
Others all have their opinion and that is fine - for me I prefer to think of God as a power much like the electricity that runs through out homes - when we need it we plug in - for some things like my Frig it is always plugged in - this power does not control good or bad but I can use the spiritual texts and ceremonies as plugging in a lamp that illuminates or like plugging in the furnace keeps me warm. I find these spiritual texts and ceremonies at times enlighten me, helps me dig deeper, is a guide for living with others and at times, probably it's the familiarity, brings me comfort.
I've been fascinated with and read the history of all aspects of both the eastern and western Church, especially as it relates to the history of Europe and Western Asia.
My high school classes taught that during the years when there is no history of Jesus and given where Paul preached that Jesus visited the east resulting in the adoption of contemplative practices and the establishment of the contemplative orders. True or not, there is a bit of similarity within all religions suggesting, there is a need that religion satisfies.
We all have a piece of our brain that wants to repeat what feels good - that need runs the gamete and there really are 12 step meetings for those who obsess in their religious practices - if we can be annoyed with the drunk and the drug addict who do not get treatment I guess we can also be annoyed with the public verbal display of their God causing their good fortune ;) Come to think of it the Greeks and Romans had their Gods controlling everything.
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Actually I was always interested in the Greeks, who seem to have a certain familial relationship with their gods. It was as if they lived right down the street. An interesting take on how to worship.
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The ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Sumerians and Egyptians, all had many gods and attributed to them many human attributes, both good and bad. And many super powers men wished they had! Reminds me totally of our Super Heroes in comic books!
Yep, men have always fashioned their gods after themselves. That is where the claim that God made man in His Image came from! Fanciful, hopeful thinking. Hubris, I call it!
Most fascinating to me are the many, many things the early Christians stole from the traditional items of worship of the peoples they came to designate as "pagans." The Greek god Dionysis, for instance. He changed water into wine. In the worship of him, people ate bread and wine in commemoration of his body and blood! Oh, the worship of all of the many gods was borrowed from, but most especially Dionysis and Mithra. I can only guess that the reason more Christians do not question this is that they have not read a word about it! Amazing!
Speaking of which, I read recently that quite a number of young Mormons are suddenly questioning the claim of The Book of Mormon that our Native American tribes are all descended from the lost and condemned tribe of Israel. Seems these young Mormons have been reading on line and/or studying in Science classes that the DNA shows these people could not have come from the Middle East at all, but from Asia. Closest in kin to the Mongolians. And these kids are beginning to figure, hey, if the book that is perfect and perfectly true has THAT wrong, what else might not be true?
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Maybe the young Mormons will begin to look at the leaves of gold in the earth part of their religion and begin to think it through.
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The golden panels which contained the Book of Mormon has always reminded me of the stone tablets with the ten commandments.
So odd that Joseph Smith had to be unseen behind a screen while translating them, and then had to rebury them (why?) and no one but he could ever see or touch them.
I could not experience, the very first time I read of this (back in 1961, I remember it well!) or even today, anything but the greatest skepticism. It reeks of a snake oil type con job.
If Joseph Smith had been a holy man and if he had shared those golden panels, it would not seem quite so blatant. But with 27 (or more) wives, and some of them only teenagers, with two being but 14, and his whole history and violent death, I cannot for the life of me figure out how he got to be a prophet and get such a multitude of people to buy into this "new and true" religion.
I studied it thoroughly when a first cousin who was close and dear to me moved out to Montana and was converted by the community she found there. I think of it as needing desperately to be part of and accepted by your surrounding neighborhood.
I read every book about Mormonism and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the war with the United States and the walking numbers with handcarts clear out to Utah and so on and on. Every book in the Montgomery County Maryland libraries, and then later in the Fairfax County Virginia libraries. Bought some. My cousin gifted me a Book of Mormon, which I still have.
So I have cheered them on in their painful trek out to Zion, and wept over the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I visited their shrine here, dubbed Disneyland Castle, which was open to the public before its cleansing and dedication. The temple, that is. Gee, Chip, who will be 50 this month, was still a kid in school back then. David and I took him out for the day to give him the experience.
I just don't get it. But a thing is a thing is a thing. And above all, people need to believe and belong, and get promised reward at the end of grappling with the hardships of a lifetime.
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This arrived on my FB page from the Alice Paul Institute this morning. Gloria Steinem's brief assessment of where the women's movement is today. Months ago some of you asked if the Equal Rights Amendment was dead, read the response in the comments section.
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2014/02/27/gloria-steinem-why-our-revolution-has-just-begun/
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MaryPage,, Sometimes I do wonder if somehow we are related.. I became quite obsessed with Mormon.. Ihad a good friend in college, who was Mormon and I got interested . Like you, I read and read and studied and since I am also a genealogist, I was inSalt Lake years ago for several research visits. I think it is the closeness. don't see why or how they believe what they do, but I do see the strong ties between the families and the joy they get in the closeness. Not something I could begin to believe is true.
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Yes, Steph, I do not do genealogy, but this cousin works at it almost full time, with myriad trips to Salt Lake. Everyone in our huge extended family loves her and we all profess to not understand her at all, at all, and everyone shudders and then just laughs a bit over the fact she has baptised our staunch Episcopalian and Church of England forebearers. We confess to having a pretty good picture in our minds of what their reaction would be were they alive to express themselves as vehemently as once they did!
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Back about 20 years ago now I had a business link that brought me to Utah where I met several women who were the daughters of a Morman man with more than one wife and then, since it was supposed to be illegal, each wife lived in a separate home - all three women, two who were friends and knew each other's story, all were ironic in their assessment of their situation growing up - how as young children life was all roses till the Dad married another women and then 'want' was at their doorstep - not only the want of a Dad but the want of adequate food and clothes and the want of a mom who became silent, dull and somewhat removed for anything but keeping busy. All this haunted these women and some of their siblings - seems they all came from families of a minimum of 4 and one was among 8. And so I learned that scrubbed look is more often the work of a woman lost to herself, whose main task was to please a man as her expression of God's Love and when left in the brambles to scrub the sinks and floors.
My other brush with a Mormon couple was in the 1960s - a more raciest family I never met - to say that when living in Kentucky as blacks were laying on the downtown sidewalks and streets in front of certain stores, while the police silently picking them up and putting them on buses and onlookers so silent you could hear a pin drop it was surreal - in spite of this background I still say they were the most raciest folks I ever met. Not just blacks. In order to keep my kids from playing with them - I know... but I did not want my children exposed to that kind of thinking or the language used to describe others - I insisted they could only go down as far as the third house away from our house - the Mormon family lived down the other end of the street but more, he worked in the same department with my husband and was a part of the neighborhood carpool - I still shake my head in amazement over that whole experience.
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Tomorrow night, Thursday March 6, on MSNBC at nine o'clock EST Rachel Maddow is showing a brand new documentary that should make history. It is to show the truth that George Bush wanted to invade Iraq long before 9/11; that it was his main ambition. This is a documentary laying out all of the facts with witnesses, and not a hate piece.
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I'll be watching, MaryPage.
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There was a book about this I thought - but it is a story I remember - they were going to grab Iraqi oil and make a killing on producing and trading arms.
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Well obviously I have not seen the documentary, nor do I know any of the people or facts associated with it, but from the teasers Maddow and others have been putting out this week, I do not get the impression that is the theme.
My impression is that they had a vain, over the top vision of the strength and grandeur of this nation, our USA, and felt it would be a piece of cake to go in and conquer a Middle Eastern nation and topple its leader and government. So Saddam was the chosen target and the invasion was on, with no plan whatsoever for the aftermath. No sense of setting up a governmental entity to take the place of the one there already.
Their main belief seems to have been that it would be a good and noble thing to go forth and create countries just like ours with Democracy and Christianity and make the whole world a better place.
Missionary zeal and hubris.
And Colin Powell is one of those who testifies to the fact that they spoke of toppling Saddam immediately upon George Bush being elected and taking over the office of President; in other words, long before 9/11/2001. There are others, as well, who remember this being the case.
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I always thought that George was showing Daddy, that he was braver and stronger, etc. What a silly man he is..
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OIL, OIL, OIL
They planned secretly involving the major oil companies on how to take over Iraq's oil industry. Found out that their oil industry was in such poor shape - held together by string and tape that it took ten years to bring it up to modern standards. They made few plans on how to govern the country once we invaded which is why it turned out to be such a mess. Guarded the Oil Ministry building while letting looters destroy the Museum and Library. Was listening to a Senate hearing today on Foreign Affairs. Oil/gas governs the foreign policy of the entire world.
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Barbara was right, and I was wrong. I kind of sort of sometimes got a whiff of the sense that Steph had, that is to say, that it had all to do with the father/son relationship and he could go one better.
But it seems that may have only been an additional nudge for George W.
And the ideology that I feel rules this bunch of blindered human beings was no doubt in play, but not the chief stimulant.
I feel kind of stupid and that I should have known better. For simply decades and decades now, I have been admonishing my family and friends in every instance to "Follow The Money."
And I forgot that here.
Oh well, same old, same old.
And in the meantime, we invaded a sovereign nation for no reason whatsoever. No legitimate cause. And left it in ruins and at civil war, killing and severely wounding thousands of our own children in the service of their country. Noble cause? Absolutely not so!
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I think that Iraq wins the "Stupid war" rule with flying colors. We had absolutely no right to be there. Why oh why do we think we must be the policeman of the world.. and that democracy is the only way to go.. Our dominant males are just flat out stupid.
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I assumed it was always about the oil. There were no surprises really for us - just the fact that there was finally documentation. Unfortunately, we had to see and hear that vile evil (anagrams - interesting) man who was the vice-president at the time. (I don't even like to say or write his name.)
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John Stewart asked "why is anyone asking this man's advise? (About present day events) He's been wrong on everything and he ended up shooting an old man in the face!?!"
My addition to that is this is a man who got something like six exemptions from being drafted, but in every governmental position he was in, he voted for, or advised for going to war!!! What a hypocrite! And that's the nicest word of many i could label him. I just think he's beyond words. I don't understand how he has the chutzpah to say one word about sending others into war. Which i also think is true about all the war-hawks in Washington today who have NEVER been in the military but are bashing Obama for being cautious and deliberate in his decision making.
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Bravo!
I agree with and second your every word.
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Yes, I am willing to listen to Bob Dole and John McCain, but that is about it on the republican side. That evil horrid man is terrifying with his words on what a great person he is.. But Bush is the one who gave him power.. sad..
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Well, I am missing Barbara and Steph and wondering where Jean has disappeared to. Here I am, dying to yell and scream about this week's arguments re contraception before the Supreme Court, and no one to talk to!
June will eventually arrive, and it will all be down to Justice Kennedy.
4 justices all for women
4 justices all against women
and Justice Kennedy. I am putting my nickel on Kennedy being pro women and we win this round!
How 'bout Your nickel?
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I'm afraid to wager even a nickel on what they will decide. >:(
After their, to me, wrong decision on political funding being free speech, those people scare me!
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I've totally written off H.L. as a store to patronize.
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If you don't want to provide full insurance to all the needs of your employees - get out of business ownership! I'm sure there are other things they have to do as business owners that they don't like, but are not willing to give up the big bucks for. Huuumm, religious principle vs money!?!
I want to know if they fund insurance for Viagra - do i even need to ask? It opens the door for way too many other dust-ups! What about medical marijuana? And, of course, all those areas that others brought up like blood transfusions and vaccinations.
Jane - i'm feeling nostalgic for the days when we really could depend on the SC to right the wrongs FOR THE COUNTRY!
From the "books into movies" site where the Morning Joe Show was mentioned by MaryPage and others, i responded to the discussion:
Since i don't sleep very well i'm seldom up to watch Morning Joe, but the few times i've seen it i've been appalled at how the guys run over Mika. I asked a friend who watches if that always happens and she replied "pretty much." Last night on the Daily Show Samantha Bee did a funny bit about the show and she ran through a long list of "boys" who come on to comment. Am i misconstruing this machoism? How do you see it?
Hope you are all warm and cozy, looks like our weekend is going to be dreary and rainy - good time to read.
Jean
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Oh Jean! Didn't you KNOW? The Congress put Viagra as a must be covered into all health insurances policies the very minute it came out!
It is SO popular with our old white males! That is why there are so many ads for it!
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Jean, I think it was last year, HL wouldn't carry "holiday" items for Jewish holidays. There was a big outcry, and they belatedly decided to do so. This is not a good company.
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So many are becoming caught in their own value system so that buyers and sellers alike are sorting themselves out because of their most often religious beliefs and their intolerance - I am thinking the habits not broken about how women are viewed would have us crossing off so many places of business we would have to be like a pioneer self sufficient - that said HL seems to be one of the only ones left that sell craft supplies - for me it is easy to boycott them since I never shop for that kind of product any longer but I wonder about all the grade school children and their parents who are into expressing themselves with crafts.
I was amazed to hear how Jimmy Carter and Rosalynn left the church they have been so tied to for generations because of the churches intolerance to women and gays. When i saw the interview he did with Charlie Rose it did my heart good and put a bigger platform under my feet since I stopped supporting the Catholic Church where I am still tied to much of the theology, individual prayer life and to the exploration of much of the history but what is coming out of Rome, even with this new Pope is intolerance towards women using ancient history and new biology to justify their words and actions. Plus, Rome and many Bishops have never owned up and addressed their role in sexual abuse - they sound just like every guy who is ever caught more concerned with themselves, their reputation even to wanting forgiveness from their victim (sicko) but who are never as aware and concerned for their victim.
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Has anyone noted that 5 of the Supreme's are Catholic - I am sorry I cannot see how your upbringing does not affect your viewpoint - even going to all the classes in the world you are still the product of your upbringing and see things from the viewpoint of your experience - I think Sotomayor this time is seeing the issues through her gender before her religious background - did we not read that 95% of all catholic women in the US and Europe use contraception pills or devices.
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I have to tell you a funny story about that very subject. I mean, Gals, we have to laugh sometimes.
Picture this. I was fresh out of 2 years in a Catholic school run by cloistered nuns just for girls. You talk about sheltered and uninformed!
Was brand new married and innocent as all get out. The conversation was lively, and everyone joined in at the sewing circle I had just been invited to in our neighborhood. In those days, if women did not have at least 1 night a week to get together without the men and children, they went nuts. This was pre TV and we were all poor as church mice.
Then the gal sitting next to me told an uproarious story about her mother-in-law coming to visit and finding her diaphragm on the side of the bathroom sink, where she had forgotten it. (We only had one bathroom; remember those days?). We all laughed, but mine was timid. When I had a chance, I whispered in Jean's ear: "I thought you were Catholic. So how can you use a diaphragm?"
She spoke right up without whispering, and I almost fell out of my chair: "Oh, MaryPage! I wouldn't DREAM of telling the priest!"
By the way, it took me 3 children in fast succession, and then I was a convert. There is a world of men and a world of women, and never the twain shall meet.
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Amazing is how most spokesmen for the Catholic Church want to completely forget and ignore the commission on Birth Control - it was overwhelming approved of with a majority of Bishops and Cardinals except of a few in the curia who used their political know how to squash along with Pope Paul who took over Vatican II when Pope John died and he did not want it brought public to be discussed during the conclave. Any doubts read both
Turning Point: The Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control Commission and How Humanae Vitae Changed the Life of Patty Crowley and the Future of the Church by Robert McClory
What Happened at Vatican II by Father John W. O'Malley
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Barb, craft supplies are readily available at Michael's - actually probably older than HL - and a goodly amount at WalMart, Target, K-Mart, etc. I'm not into crafting either, but I do check for some things there. We have a new Michael's in our immediate area, so I have options.
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"Come on over to our house!!!"
Never in my 36 yrs of living in the Phila area have i seen a tv ad for A. C . Moore,.........just 10 minutes ago there was one! A looonngg one! Isn't capitalism wonderful!?! "You're mad at HL? Let us take advantage of that, we'll be happy to have your business, and we won't fight over ACA!"
I have never been in a HL store and obviously never will be. I think they have blown their plan to open stores in the northeast. They had just begun. I think there is now ONE within driving distance of me. But w/in a mile i have ACMoore, Michaels and Joanns, too much competition to be so narrow-minded as a business owner.
My list gets longer of places i will never shop in - Walmart, Chick Filet, H L, there are probably more, just not on my mind. Interestingly, as i hear about these narrow minded owners i begin to hear about good ones - Costco, etc. and fortunately, i'm not fond of shopping, so it's not a great hindrance.
I was being facetious in the viagra comment! Of course i know that all those guys are making sure there buddy Bob Dole can get his viagra (that also is tongue-in-cheek.) ;D
Jean
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Had not heard of A.C.Moore so it must be craft stores in your part of the country - and yes, forgot we do have a Michaela.
Wow look what I found as an E-Book online - not the Turning Point but The politics of Sex and Religion which is bringing us up-to-date on the outdated talk by Bishops wanting to remove contraceptive aids from Obamacare - the book is about "How the people of God, not the pope, changed the Catholic Church's teaching on birth control. A history of the papal birth control commission of the 1960s and its aftermath narrated by a man who was there, Time magazine's correspondent at Vatican II."
http://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/151118/1/the-politics-of-sex-and-religion
http://www.robertblairkaiser.com/biography/index.html
I learned something that I had no clue - there is "canonical doctrine of reception, broadly stated, asserts that for a law or rule to be an effective guide for the believing community it must be accepted by that community." In the first pages of the E-book there is a link to this document filled with the minutia explaining in essence canon law must be accepted by the laity not just a proclamation by the hierarchy. hmmm
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I noticed that the Edinburgh University Feminist Society has a writer called Mellissa Gira Grant coming to speak about sex workers next month. I imagine I should have heard of her, but I haven't - has anyone else?
Rosemary
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I have a granddaughter named Melissa N. Grant. That is her married name, her maiden name being North, and she is a biologist who also teaches and lectures, but this is not she. Melissa is my daughter Anne's daughter and the mother of Annabelle, the 11 year old Bella whose current voyage around the world I am sharing in Seniors & Friends.
I got my copy of Jimmy Carter's latest book yesterday, and stayed up late skimming it. Will read it in depth as soon as I finish my current read, which I am very much into. But I plead with each of you to read this book. Buy it! Own it! Get every female you know to read it. I am sending it to all my daughters and granddaughters. Five daughters. Thirteen granddaughters. Twelve great granddaughters so far, but their mothers can take care that the older ones read it. Only one is in college, while a second one will start next year.
Read: A CALL TO ACTION, Women, Religion, Violence, and Power
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Is JC talking about women of the globe, or just women inthe USA?
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Both - all women - I am right behind MaryPage having ordered the book...
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It is a small book. He speaks of he and Roselind circumnavigating this planet and finding everywhere women being treated as unequal to men, often with violent results. He speaks frankly of rape, of honor killings of innocent women by their own families, of female genital mutilation, of men misinterpreting religious writings to claim they allow the discrimination against women and girls because God meant it to be that way. He shows this to have been the precise pattern in which it was excused that it was alright to mistreat blacks and people of other races and religions. He points out that it is flat out wrong, and that more than half the population of this Earth is not being fully utilized because of this dreadful discrimination. He writes humbly and sincerely and without hyperbole.
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I was stunned, and I think you will be, too, at what I found in the March 31, 2014 issue of THE NEW YORKER on page 3.
Gallup never even asked if anyone would vote for a woman for president until 1937. At that time, and for 3 years before they changed the wording, the question went like this:
"Would you vote for a woman for president if she were qualified in every other respect?"
I don't know about you, but that question as posed makes me feel my gender relegates me to an undesirable status. Ugh and blah!
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ho ho ho
The owners of Hobby Lobby, a Christian-owned craft supply chain, were so offended by the idea of having to include emergency contraceptives and intrauterine devices in their health insurance plans that they sued the Obama administration and took the case all the way up to the Supreme Court. But Mother Jones reported on Tuesday that the company's retirement plan has invested millions of dollars in the manufacturers of emergency contraception and drugs used to induce abortions.
Hobby Lobby's 401(k) employee retirement plan holds $73 million in mutual funds that invest in multiple pharmaceutical companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and abortion-inducing medications.
The companies Hobby Lobby invests in include Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, which makes the Plan B morning-after pill and ParaGard, a copper IUD, as well as Pfizer, the maker of the abortion-inducing drugs Cytotec and Prostin E2. Hobby Lobby's mutual funds also invest in two health insurance companies that cover surgical abortions, abortion drugs, and emergency contraception in their health care policies.
Hobby Lobby's attorneys argue that the provision in the Affordable Care Act that requires most employers to cover contraception in their health plans infringes on the company's right to exercise religious freedom because the company's owners believe that emergency contraception and IUDs are actually forms of abortion. Medical studies have debunked this claim.
Mother Jones reported that all nine of the mutual funds Hobby Lobby's retirement plan holds include investments that clash with the owners' religious beliefs about abortion.
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Nothing surprises me any more!?!
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Thank God for Mother Jones!
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I found it interesting (if patronizing) that, at the news conference this afternoon about the Fort Hood shooting, the general found it necessary to mention several times that the hero of the event was the "female MP". He also mentioned a medic, but didn't feel the need to mention the gender of the medic.
Is that too nit-picky of me? ::)
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We really do not know who he was addressing with the remarks about a female police officer - I think in the service they are still trying to sell the idea that women are an effective addition in perilous jobs and maybe he feels the public still questions the role of women in the service - but it does seem the armed forces are having their time trying to see women as equal to men in the same jobs.
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wont go to HL.. Michaels and Joannes are in Florida. Hypocrites bother me way too much.. Oh by the way, Chick Filet is changing their tunes..Wondor why.
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Hey STEPH! So happy to see you back here, and hope you are feeling better and better every single day. love and a hug from MaryPage
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Celebrate the 50th anniversary year of the Civil Rights Act that now includes rights for ethnic groups, women, persons w/ disabilities and those of us over 40. What are you doing today that you couldn 't do in 1953? Thank you to the thousands of brave men and women, girls and boys who worked to get that bill to LBJ's desk for signature!
President Obama gave a great speech at the LBJ Library today.
http://t.mediaite.com/mediaite/#!/entry/watch-live-obama-speaks-at-civil-rights-summit,5346c8b2b7d8d24162d5d877
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Wish Obama had paid closer attention to how LBJ operated. That was a truly clever man..
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LBJ had all those years of experience in Congress to know how things worked. That doesn't seem to be the way things work now.
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Its a different time - the NewsHour last night had a good interview with four - do not remember all of them but Linda Robb was one and the women who was the first black mayor of Atlanta and some guy who worked for Lindsy (not sure of spelling who later became Mayor or NY and was a Republican Congressmen at the time) anyhow he was 24 years old when he worked for Lindsy in D.C. and was very much in the middle of the Civil Rights changes to the Constitution. And then a young women professor at UT - something about public affairs and she was not born in the US - could not tell if she was of Indian or Mexican decent - anyhow the guy who worked for Lindsy shared how it was a different Congress - that there were more Middle of the road Republicans and some Liberal Republicans - that Congress worked together to make things happen and yes, there were areas of the country that had a different view point but the focus was on a more cohesive group regardless the viewpoints so you did not have 8 viewpoints all vying for attention or such bitterness between those behind differing viewpoints as now -
That said to me Johnson not only had years of skill and years to know all these folks which was one of his major skills but he had a very different Congress to work with. I get the impression now it would not matter how well you knew Congressional representatives they have an agenda that is to stop anything they can coming from the White House - its all about putting up road blocks rather than figuring out how to work together to solve something so each gets a piece. To me I see they work hard to make sure their constituents are angry and then they can turn that anger into a vote since of course they will blame the other side.
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As stated, LBJ had decades of wily experience. He was taught by the experts, and he was the leader of the bunch. Obama was new boy on scene, and none of us had ever heard of him until he gave that speech at the Democrats Convention. He has had no debts to pull in; no IOUs filling his pockets.
Also, when all is said and done, LBJ made a huge choice: i.e., do this as a matter of justice served and end my own career, or continue in the old ways and bury my itching conscience.
I will always applaud the choice he made.
One thing that startles me is the history, made back there in what seems ever so short a time ago, seems largely wiped out and forgotten now. Chris Matthews was telling of having read it in a brand new book the other day, and he sounded astounded. But why SHOULD he be? The history as given was accurate, and America is suffering amnesia if they do not remember!
I REMEMBER! Perhaps I remember because I am 85 next month, and I was there before it all happened. I dunno. But I was a LIFELONG Republican, born and raised. An extreme rarity in my home state of Virginia! Yes, Virginia, you WERE a Democrat owned and run state back in the day of Senator Harry Byrd! You, and ALL the Southern states had been totally Democrat controlled since the Civil War!
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Then LBJ did the unexpected and fought for Civil Rights. Southern Democrats had apoplexy big time. They left the Democratic Party lock, stock and barrel. Under the flag suddenly named DIXIECRATS, they became REPUBLICANS. And my party, the little old party of Lincoln, suddenly had this huge flood of men who were possessed of great Power in this nation. What is more, they were Old, White, Southern BIGOTS.
And they took over my party. The Party of Abraham Lincoln and Civil Rights. They kicked the civil rights out the door, brought in fundamentalist Christians by the busload and train and planeload, and LO! By 1980, they were inserting Abortion in their platform!
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY! MY PARTY!
And me, a raging suffragette, feminist, equal rightser all of my born days!
I bolted. And when I did, I could not understand why so few did! I said, LOOK at what they are doing! And they would say, oh, it is not important. We don't have to buy into that stuff. This is OUR party, the Party of Lincoln.
And I would say, The Hell You Say! They have taken it over like a disease.
Well, I have been voting for Democrats since 1980, but it took until 2004 for me to garner up my courage and go and change my party affiliation at the Office of Elections. I admit it was hard!
But hey, AT LEAST I knew and understood what was happening!
How quickly we forget.
And how little attention we pay to connecting the dots at the very time History IS happening!
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Pity me, I live inFlorida and almost surely in the next governors election, there will not be anyone that I can vote for.. Rick(ugh), but Charlie is not any better. Why oh why are the extremists taking over our poor country.We were founded on bargaining... seeing the others choices.... gently turning each corner. What has happened to us.
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Steph, think about it for a moment.
The extremists are world wide. They are the ones who crashed planes into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon.
They are the bigots of this world. Hate and mistrust your neighbor. Despise the people who worship in that building down the street. Kill those who disagree with you! Keep women in their place as servants and slaves of males who believe as we do.
I think, and I know that you think, too, that we have nothing to fear from peoples just because they have majorities of different religious faiths and/or races. Their race has nothing to do with it. Their religion has nothing to do with it, albeit the controlling often USE an extremist view of a religion, ANY given religion including Christianity, to spread their poisonous dogma. This world's woes are wrought by men who are Bigots, hate women, and are full of greed for Power and control of the wealth. They don't give a cool damn whom they kill, or how many they kill, or how many lies they tell. Any means to the desired ends!
And the poisonous dogmas are being propagated right here in our own midst. We are being totally arrogant and full of hubris if we do not see and acknowledge that truth!
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AND if you look at the extremists regardless where in the world they operate and how much they shout, hit, belittle, kill, insist, minimize other viewpoints, accuse, blame, judge, criticize, they are all carrying out the typical abusive behavior of a 'Wife beater' which is nothing more than men covering their weakness with control.
Their thousands of years traditional lifestyle is unraveling and they are loosing their place on the thrown given to them the day they were born a man. Not only is the balance of power being challenged, and not in just one corner of the globe but, in every nook and cranny in addition the world is tilting. Science and technology has taken away their crown and scepter and so like a dying animal gored they are on a rampage.
Most of us will not see the end of the bridge - it is like we are all walking the Selma bridge while many are experiencing the dogs and hoses of Birmingham but humanity is changing much like the change from the dark ages to the Renascence which did include the acceptance of romantic love as compared to arranged marriages with no love intended or expected. That, at the time was a monster change. One that most churches never contended with since most church marriage laws and reproduction laws were written before courtly and romantic love were acknowledged, named or practiced. And now we have the change from blind obedience to a man made sense of community welfare to individual freedom to express our own power. We want to gather in like-communities rather than in enforced-communities established and ruled by male leadership. That leadership is going berzerk - no different than the foreman on horseback along with others that have worked themselves into a rant chasing down run-away-slaves.
The western Renascence had the Medici's we have the 1% that church and political leaders fawn over to fund their rant.
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Very well put, Barbara. A most excellent perspective.
And again, blessings pour on Jimmy Carter, who has written it all down from the perspective of an Old, White, Southern, Religious MALE, whose brains are actually inside his skull. If his mother, Miss Lillian, could return from her grave and read this, it would surely "do her proud!"
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Jimmy has the benefit of a wonderful mother and wife who both kept him thinking. Not a good president, but a good human and one we could learn from.
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here is our hope for the future
http://www.becauseofthemwecan.com/blogs/stories/13118149-celebrating-womens-history
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I remember Miss Lillian, Jimmy Carter's mother. She used to post to a Los Angeles radio talk show and they'd call her just to talk to her. Loved to hear her talk. She was a real kick and loved baseball.
Marj
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I think that Obama could have benefitted from a strong mother, but never got much of a chance with her.. She was a most peculiar woman..
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But Steph, i think Obama had great women in his life and great role models. Maybe you have different information than i have, but his mother seems to me to have been adventurous and daring and his grandmother, who seems to have had a strong influence was a bank official and gave him a solid family life. He had the good sense to chose a smart, strong woman for a wife and seems to know how to treat her well. What were you referring to?
I just found what appears to be a great blog Elderchicks: http://www.elderchicks.com
It's administered by two women in their 80s, retired academics. Scroll down on the right to listen to a radio interview of them from PBS, check out the "books we should read" link, and i'm subscribing to their blog. Looks like fun and also informative.
Jean
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Thanks for that link, Mabel. I just subscribed.
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Check out Elderchicks Facebook page. There's a lot of currant info on it, especially about their book and interviews that they are doing or have done. There's a link from their blog page.
Jean
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Thanks for the suggestion, Mabel. It's a dreary afternoon in central Oklahoma and I'm doing a lot of browsing. Will add that to the list.
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I think Obamas mother suited herself, but not her children. She picked up and went to suit the men in her life.. All in all, not a good role model. His grandparents were good role models, but he had no way of fitting in for so many years. His wife is strong, not a favorite of mine for a number of reasons, but she is good for him and he loves having a family of his own.
Excitement. I did laugh this morning..Bill and Hillary are over the moon..A grandchild.. They are both funny..
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Hey Gals! Ya just gotta check out these little girls coming along behind us! Phew! To think that I have despaired over the future of womankind!
Twelve year old MADISON KIMREY in North Carolina. Google search her on the web, in images, and in video. Hear her speak! Rejoice!
Eight year old Olivia McConnell in South Carolina. What a gem! Google search her, too: on the web, in Images, and in video. Hear HER speak! Dance a little jig for Joy!
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will look this morning.
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I DO NOT BELIEVE THE WOMEN OF THESE UNITED STATES realize the extent to which we have become a backward country compared with the other hundreds of nations on this planet ALL DUE to men, particularly religious Christian men, who firmly believe we are not their equals.
I point to page 182 of President Jimmy Carter's most recent book: A CALL TO ACTION:
"The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women has now been ratified by all nations except
IRAN, PALAU, SOMALIA, SUDAN, TONGA, and the UNITED STATES."
Yep, we're right in there with IRAN. And most women smugly believe that is not the case.
It upsets me so very much. It is so sad and so unfair that men want to keep us in a second class category.
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hmm, ratified, but a lot of the countries not mentioned, do not have equality for women.Think of Saudi..
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Have been behind with things, and feeling a bit scattered and frustrated as a result. Thus it is that I have a pile of The New Yorkers to get to, and have just read the article that will, if it has not already, surely sink the Chris Christie ship. Amazing stuff. Sure, I have heard that New Jersey politics stink, who hasn't? But I did not really know details. Wow! Wow again!
So I urge you, if you want to be in the loop, to grab hold of the April 14, 2014 issue of The New Yorker. Obama on the front cover giving a spoonful of medicine to Mitch McConnell. The New Yorker has not, in my nearly 85 years of reading it, and yes, my dad subscribed when I was tiny and I can remember looking at all the cartoons way back then and wondering what the people sitting up in bed were saying to each other in some and wishing I could have some of the goodies on the dessert carts being pushed up to all the chunky ladies in hats dining out in others, anyway, The New Yorker has not written trash articles and/or stuff they could not fully and truly back up according to the old fashioned values of journalism. So I take every word as gospel, and have never been let down. Sometimes, of course, their writers are not yet aware of ALL of the facts, but they don't try to fill in the cracks with made up stuff or gossip and speculation. Anyway, this is an ARTICLE not to be missed, no matter your loyalties. As I said: WOW!
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MaryPage - I am always behind with things, and the more reviewing I do, the worse it gets :) At the moment I am aiming to attend three events per week in Edinburgh, all of which I then write up for the Edinburgh Reporter. I'm also reviewing books for Trip Fiction (though not as many as I would like, just not enough time) and I've just started a weekly 'what's on in the arts in Edinburgh' sort of round-up for the reporter too.
The trouble is, I really love doing all of these things - the things I don't like doing are the laundry, cooking, shopping, general admin (which I have a lot of at the moment as am in the middle of buying/selling houses and also trying to help sister-in-law with finding carers and other support for her ailing parents) - but unfortunately many of those things are inescapable - I'm not prepared to give up the stuff I do like, so I too have this constant feeling of chasing my own tail. But it's better than being bored! My mother is still involved in a lot of things in her eighties, and she says that the people who retire and just sit in front of the TV all day complaining (I don't mean people with health issues that make anything else impossible) grow old a lot more quickly.
So we're doing the right thing - it's just that sometimes it does get a bit out of hand!
Rosemary
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Rosemary, you and I are soulmates!
I adored my children, but did not enjoy being couped up with them and tending to their every mundane need.
I hate housework. I love gardening and reading.
I think cook is an obscene 4-letter word.
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Unless you have one who works for you, of course.
The verb to cook is horrid.
The noun, to have a cook working in your kitchen, is divine!
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AMEN!
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I loved cooking and was really creative and good for years. But with just me.. I rarely cook.. My grown children cannot believe it. They remember all of the wild stuff I used to invent and ask for it. I provide their wives with what I did to what and let them deal with it, but small children ( even my own) are not my thing.. cleaning, vacuuming, ugh.. and gardening.. not any more. I wanted and bought a house, but in a 55+ community so mostly the outside is up to them.
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When I had to cook, I was a good cook. Did not see any point to being half way about it. But I hated the time and trouble given to it; to me it did not seem proportionally gratifying. On the other hand, gardening contains the spirit of the universe, and I miss my beautiful gardens immensely. Consolation comes from 21 blue pots on my 2 decks. Really, they are all I have the strength for anyway, as getting down on my knees is nigh on to impossible these days! As for cooking, I would describe what I do as "fixing" something to eat, not cooking. I go out to eat a lot. At this early morning moment, have just set out 3 eggs, some bacon, marge and English muffins. Will place the cooked bacon (Nueske's microwaved with paper towels) on the toasted and buttered (Olivio) English muffins and placed soft boiled egg yokes (I throw away the whites; my 2nd husband used to eat these) on top. Yum, yum, goooood!
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I liked it all - I loved the fresh foods - the smells and I felt joy cutting them and making them into something - I would think of the fresh earth or even the idea that flour was milled and the grain stored by farmers in those huge silos all before I had my hands on it. And then the same with waxing furniture - I would think that someone made this using their hands and if it was a assembly line manufactured item I thought of the people who figured out how to make the machinery that facilitated the assembly line - I just always felt privileged to care for something made by someone else - probably learned that from my grandmother who when she dried dishes it was as if she was polishing each spoon and plate in reverence.
And for a year and a half now I have only cooked my own food - after reading the salt and other chemicals in prepared foods it shocked me and no wonder I was flirting with high blood pressure and so now I look at all commercially prepared food as if it was poison - I eat Ezekiel bread and will use commercially prepared mayo but the rest is all fresh or plain frozen veggies. I even lost 25 pounds without doing another thing but eating fresh and getting back to what I like which is cooking in new ways these fresh foods.
I would love to grow veggies myself but the best I can do is the herbs since the deer eat everything - they will not touch the herbs. I dry and ground and mix the herbs and give them as gifts - funny at Christmas I sent a couple packages to my grandson Chris who I understand is into cooking - he and his brother share an apartment and their other brother lives across the street - anyhow he excitably and in shock calls his mother saying Grandma sent them marijuana - we all had a good laugh.
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I loved baking the most and used to make all of our own bread. Bought the flour from mills who do not take out everything healthy when they grind.. There are small mills all over the south. Just me, so the only time I make bread, etc is if I am making presents.
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I think it interesting how often i have talked to cooks who are either "cookers" OR "bakers". I like preparing food for special occasions (Thanksgiving, cook-outs, a special lunch w/ friends) but HATE the day to day drudge - always have!
I think MaryPage must be related to Margaret and Helen, doesn't their blog sound just like her? I hadn 't read it for a while, but this one on Huckabee's birth control comment is wonderful...........
http://margaretandhelen.com
I hope everybody survived the weather without being scathed by Mother Nature. She sure is angry about what we are doing to her planet.
Jean
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Margaret and Helen do make me laugh.Talk about blunt.. but accurate.
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I'd never heard of the Margaret and Helen blog. Hilarious!
Marj
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I've been keeping them in my FAVORITES list for a couple of years now, at least. And I think it was Jean who tuned me in to them before.
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By the way, did you catch THIS story? Tickled me to death, but I have not heard a scosch about it on the news. One of my sons told me about it! Apparently, this type of news has to go by word of mouth!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/rick-scott-obamacare-stories_n_5239898.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
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Another one...also from the huffington post
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/archive/segment/a-doctor-totally-schools-an-anti-obamacare-senator-on-health-care/53231979fe3444344d0001cd?cn=tbla
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OH! That is Wonderful!
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Editorial: Aceh’s Shariah Law Warrants Discussion
By Jakarta Globe on 06:35 pm May 11, 2014
Category Editorial, Opinion
Tags: Aceh, human rights, Shariah
Aceh has enforced a limited version of Shariah law since 2001, and the Helsinki Agreement in 2005 that brought an end to decades of bloodshed, strengthened and widened its implementation. But the recent decision by the province’s Shariah police, or Wilayatul Hisbah, to cane a woman and her lover after she was brutally raped by a mob of vigilantes has really taken the nation by surprise and shocked the international community. The people of Aceh were subjected to heavy criticism, as if they have no sense of justice and no respect for human rights.
This is not the first time the Acehnese in general have become the victim of abuses by Shariah enforcers. In 2010, for instance, three WH officers raped a 20-year-old college student detained for sitting too close to her boyfriend. Yet most, if not all, recent scandals have mistakenly and unfairly been attributed to all Acehnese, most of whom we believe to be wise, honest, friendly and hard-working people.
There should be an open discussion on the need to review the implementation of Shariah law in Aceh, because its success can be questioned. Despite the strict implementation of partial Shariah law, according to the province’s Legal Aid Foundation for Children the circulation of illegal pornographic material has been on the rise across the province. The foundation also found a growing number of child sexual abuse cases, along with rapes, drug trafficking and corruption. The province also has difficulties to attract foreign investment despite being blessed with rich natural resources.
The Helsinki Agreement was a deal between Jakarta and the Aceh Free Movement (GAM), who claimed to represent all Acehnese people. But it was part of a political game. It’s time to ask the Acehnese if they really want Shariah, as they are the ones who should live with it and face the consequences.
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This is a dynamite book that includes stories we have not heard since the Nazi Concentration Camps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZxHQLA0ww
http://www.amazon.com/Sewing-Hope-Joseph-apart-together/dp/193760294X
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Our world is getting worse with the distortions of religion..
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Repeating myself here, but read Jimmy Carter's book: A CALL TO ACTION.
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I have been reading about how incombants tend to be reelected.. Amazing the advantage they have.. We really need to change our way of electing.
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The story of Jill Abramson and the New York Times is mind boggling.
The story of the water war going on between Georgia on the one hand and Florida and Alabama on the other is all that the scientists predicted as long ago as 50 years in the past.
When Bob & I went to Canada in 2004, some Canadians told us in all seriousness that Canada is afraid the U.S. will invade them one day to get at their huge supply of water.
And Texas is suffering a terrible drought, but the oil drillers are lining the pockets of the legislature there, and they are allowing said drillers to take up to 80% of what little water they have in reserve, for FRACKING! They are so in denial! Barbara, if I were you I would pull up stakes and take myself elsewhere!
Oh, and we should all read Elizabeth Warren's new book!
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new fact for me.. Paper had a tiny article on the fact that there was a period in our history that if a woman was a US citizen, and married a foreigner, she lost her citizenship.The legislature has just reinstated these women..How horrible..it must have been..
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Yes, the Jill Abramson story is intriguing and possibly disgusting at the same time. Listening to "objective" voices, it seems the publisher said she had an "aggressive" management style, however the LONG TIME previous executive editor was said to be very much disliked and had a "mean and hostile" management style. JA has been there only about 3 yrs. Had she been counseled about her style,given an opportunity to improve?
Many of the women at the NYTs seemed to like her and were hired and promoted by her, many more then by previous editors. It sounds as tho the publisher got his feelings hurt when she brought a lawyer to the salary negotiations, poor boy. God forbid that she not be "entirely grateful" and "submissive" to him after ALL he did for her. Has no man ever consulted an atty about contract negotiations w/ the Times? Pleeaassee!
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Considering everything, it was amost sensible thing to do to bring a lawyer with you. Ah the joys of being the publisher and being.. KING.
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Great blog about JA's firing.......my comment to the only comment made at the end of the blog "yeah, she definitely wasn't "grateful" enough that he had "put her" in that powerful position.
http://nursingclio.org/2014/05/20/punishing-pushy-women-gender-and-power-in-the-newsroom/
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Heard bits and pieces from a graduation speech Jill Abramson gave yesterday. She sounded very upbeat, and made a crack about being in the same position as the graduates in that she was not sure about her future employment. Hope she has SAVED more of that huge salary she got than she has spent. Can't get over the amounts people are being paid today. Remember when my 1st husband was making $2,600 a year when we moved into our first owned home (mortgage $64 per month P.I.T.I.) and the couple next door (my best friend, and her husband, who turned out to be my 3rd, last and best husband after my 1st and his only both died) had an income of $2,700 a year, and I envied them the extra $100! We all aspired to 5k per year, when we'd be RICH!
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Oh MaryPage, you do bring back memories. In 1958 when I married, he made 5200.00 a year and I made right around 3500.. and we had more money than we spent.. I marvel when I remember. Even when the Army reached out and grabbed him, we had very little money, but we were in South Carolina and our rent was 45.00 for a two bedroom apartment with a small fenced yard.
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Yep, and bread was 19 cents and milk 12 cents with gas about 20 cents a gallon - using the inflation calculator - the combined income of $8700 in 1952 would cost $75349.29 in 2013. - Problem - unless you are a professional the average income is not 75K - here work your numbers out and see how the past stacks up against 2013 http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
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It is such a huge relief to have SOMEONE to talk to about these things! All of my here friends are dead and gone! The younger generations look at me as though my memories are off the chart and I have cracked up!
When I was twelve years old, and my grandmother and I were living alone because my uncles and all had gone off to war, not to mention my parents, who had also, she would give me a quarter to go up the street to the grocer. No carts. No aisles. Just a counter, where you either gave the clerk a list, which he or she filled in a cardboard box, or you were just handed the items, if only a few. I would ask for a loaf of Wonder bread and a quart of milk. The bread had a very large 8¢ in bright blue on each end. Eight cents for the bread. The milk came in a glass quart bottle with a bubble on top of the neck. The bubble contained pure cream. Twelve cents for the milk. I gave the clerk my quarter, time and time and time again, and got a nickel back. Sometimes I would sort of hang around before skedaddling up the street, but grandma wouldn't say anything. Sometimes she felt I had been extra good and deserved a reward, and she would tell me I could spend the nickel change. Whoopee! I always thought about every possibility, and almost always wound up getting a creamsicle. Remember creamsickles? Orange sherbert around vanilla ice cream. Yum!
I think my descendents think I am lying through my teeth about the prices!
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When I was growing up in the London suburbs in the 1970s, there were still some shops that had everything behind the counter - but this was not always a good thing, as the mortification of having to go into the chemist and ask for sanitary towels was almost unbearable for a teenager. When supermarkets started to sell them and Boots became self-service, I was very happy - but my mother was scandalised - 'How can anyone put THAT on the same conveyor belt as their groceries?' - it was still very much something that was never mentioned, whereas now my daughters can buy what they need anywhere and everywhere.
My mother had a similar view of tights (panty hose) - 'they'l never catch on' - well of course they did, but these days I absolutely loathe them myself, and either wear trousers or have bare legs (despite their appearance...) and in the winter I sometimes wear the 60 denier thick black ones with shorter skirts. The thin nylon ones are just horrible, I don't know how I wore them to work all those years.
And talking about things kept behind the counter, I now see that many local convenience stores - which are fundamentally self-service - have taken to keeping not only spirits & cigarettes, but also coffee behind the desk, as presumably these are the things that are most often shoplifted.
Rosemary
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Same situation existed here. I can remember my best friend accompanying me "up the street" to the general store to buy Kotex. A simple blue box of pads cost twenty-five cents then. And the store kept them behind the counter. Each box was wrapped before hand in plain brown paper and tied with a piece of ordinary string. Supposedly to hide what was within, but the box was SO immediately recognizable, even with the camouflauge, that we were absolutely smitten with embarrassment and dread.
Arriving at the store, we would peer inside the large window to see who was on clerk duty at the moment. They had a woman and a couple of men. We would try desperately to wait until the woman was on duty and free, and then go in and whisper to her what was required and she would reach under the counter and hand over the box and we would hand over the quarter (no sales taxes in those days; what a thing cost was what it cost) and then skedaddle back down the street, me holding said box between the two of us, hoping our skirts would hide it from most eyes.
As a left over from back in the day, I feel a frisson of horror every time I hear or see these things advertised these days, not to MENTION the even more sensitively personal stuff! I can still, to this very day, remember the first time I saw toilet paper pitched on the TV. I turned my head to the side and stared at the commercial in utter disbelief that standards had fallen so low! Now! Well, I cannot even bring myself to mention what is on there now; but YOU know!
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Oh,oh the memories. They brought back that horrible belt that you fastened the pad to. Ugh.. and then before panty hose, there were days when you had an kotex and that belt and regular nylons and that belt, panties, bra, slip and then thank heaven actual clothes.. Whew..
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Shoot when I first started and I was old for starting - almost 16 - anyhow it was while at my grandmothers and she provided me with rags that had to be washed out everynight and hung on the washline behind a shirt or kitchen towel so no one would see - using a second set of rags for bedtime - not knowing any better I continued this practice for over a year till some girls were talking at school and I convinced my mother I should buy Kotex - and like all of you the embarrassment of buying a box so that I always got the small box with only 10 pads so it was not as noticeable - and then horrors of horrors after my first baby was born had impacted milk ducts and had surgery so in bed could not get what I needed - Made the list of groceries for my husband to pick up included the box of Kotex - by then I was not as embarrassed but forgot how he would feel. But he did it and we both seemed to move on
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I had an absolutely fantastic 85th birthday yesterday, May 24th, and wake today to find myself surprisingly into my 86th year.
My fondest wish before I die, other than little personal family ones, is that the women of this world finally WAKE UP to their historical treatment as an underclass and stop being beguiled by the con men of this planet and ASSERT themselves to achieve full equality.
WE should have THAT DREAM!
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Oh, how I hated that belt thing! Do you remember when your father commented on "it". There I was, sitting on the sofa, afraid I would leak, and my father says something about my becoming a woman! I wanted to die.
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One more way women were shamed for being a woman - it is pervasive.
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Mrs Sherlock - my father had died before I started, but my mother had no qualms about mentioning it in front of people, so yes I did want to die... She also would not let me put the used articles in the rubbish (garbage) and insisted on burning them on a sort of funeral pyre in the back garden because 'what would the dustmen think?' - I really can't imagine what my daughters would reply if I said that to them - it wouldn't be printable....They sort themselves out and have rarely asked for any intervention on my part, though I would gladly help with purchasing, etc if they wished.
Sanitary protection used to carry VAT (sales tax) in the UK - I don't know if it still does, but I remember as a teenager writing to our local Member of Parliament about it, and mother was horrified! Writing about that AND to a man - whatever next?
Rosemary
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Well, I say, Rosemary, that you were absolutely in the right and I would have championed you on and added my name to the request.
Items which are completely necessary to each and every girl and woman's hygiene should not be taxed. Period!
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I recently found out there's a referendum on the November ballot in Tennessee on a proposed state constitutional amendment. This advertisement (http://shop3.timesfreepress.com/chattanooga/view/tennesseans-for-preservation-of-personal-privacy-inc/vote-no-on-the-tennessee-taliban-amendment/19955698) was in this morning's paper and is the first I've seen about it from either side. Needless to say, I'll be sending money to these folks.
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Thanks MaryPage - I'd back my daughters on this (and most things!) too :)
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Wow they got that ad right Maryz - I am sending it out so that others can see what can be done.
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I tend to believe Jimmy Carter's book A CALL TO ACTION did a lot of good re making people, and most particularly newsmen, aware of the immense mistreatment of women world wide. I tend to believe this because the bad things have been going on forever, with no public outcry. Then his book, in which he specifies honor killings, the attitudes of owning women and women being valued much less than men, plus schoolgirls being killed or kidnapped into slavery and prostitution, plus many other horrors, was published in March, and newspeople tend to read books by ex presidents, if for no other reason than to find quotable tidbits about other famous names. Yes, I think they read his book and were horrified at what has been going on for centuries; and now they are emphasizing the kidnaping of schoolgirls and the honor killing of a pregnant young woman in our daily headlines. I think President Carter's call has been heard!
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Oh God I pray so...
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
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The stoning horror is beyond belief. Oh please make them be punished. But then the man she married was no picnic. He declares, he killed his first wife so he could marry her. Not a nice person.
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It is not just the individual cases which need to be punished severely and resolved, it is the overriding, pervasive attitude of those born male into this world that they are in every way superior to those of the female gender, that the female gender belongs to a lesser servant class of beings, and that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with raping and killing them, that this treatment is no more than swatting and killing gnats or mosquitoes or flies, which must be addressed and radically changed. Such men have a mind set that it is fairly easy to get new wifes and daughters. After all, all females are property.
IF, of course, the females raped and/or killed are YOUR property, the perpetrators are guilty of taking YOUR property for their own use! In other words, YOU may rape and kill your daughters, but it is a crime of theft for other men so to do! And if these other than family men rape, but do not kill, your daughters, well, those females are SPOILED, like rancid meat, and must be destroyed by killing them yourself.
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There is a cultural aspect that I am not sure we understand except through our own eyes - I think till we get to the bottom of this we are failing around in the dark. We believe it is about power and in our Western culture we see the evidence of the need for power - but my thinking is there is a basis for the need for power among especially the Indian population although, this is equal a problem beyond our own in Africa.
One thought and I am sorry this sounds terrible but it is my experience - I have not had a RE transaction that involved an Indian couple without enormous aggression, beyond trying to find loopholes in the law but out right doing things their way until, they come up against the legal aspects that will allow them to close. They push and push for every speck and are at times raging at the closing table because of some of the unknowns - I am very capable of working with most Asians but if I can avoid it I prefer not working with those from India.
When I shared this with my daughter feeling embarrassed by my own attitude she informed me there was an announcement or special or something on CNN where back east there are actual classes for Indians to learn how to be less aggressive in order to get the service they would like here in the USA. The basis of this aggression was explained that the mass of population in India meant, to get anything that was what the behavior used and learned early.
I am seeing here very educated folks coming from comfortable circumstances in India and yet, this uncomfortable aggressive behavior that ALWAYS put down women - agents are treated like servants and among some couples the women are strong, acting out more aggressively than the man but only within the marriage - as soon as another Indian male or a "white" is part of the scene she becomes subservient. She usually ignores the agent and directs all her demands to the air and to her husband - some husbands are stoic and others smile and others go along with taking her seriously -
I find the other Asians who do slip into their native language - yes, buying or selling Real Estate is very stressful and I understand but they then look at me and either recap or apologize - I can usually tell from body language and a word here and there what the issue is and sure enough when I share they look at each other and then share with me their concern however, I can not tell from body language what the Indian folks are talking about - every thing is such drama and they talk to each other insistently in Hindi especially the women to other women.
I also learned that India, the land area is smaller than that of China and yet they have 2 billion more people than China. And so I do not see the treatment of women changing that dramatically in a short time - addressing the treatment of women may end up affecting the entire culture or system because I can see that women being available the population continues to explode and without an understanding of the religion, the basis of a culture that we do not know enough about to find out how a women is valued and viewed - clearly most religions do not respect women equal to men and I would be shocked if it were any different in India.
There appears to be a fear underlying most of the arguments by men - something about their not controlling their sperm and they wanting to see the fruits of their sperm in the form of children - brothels are for play, wives are for the production of children - what that fear is all about is not talked about - this is far more basic than producing enough children to help the family economy and to assure enough of their children make it to adults. This is far more basic than a future that includes children as a value to a family - this is something that is more basic and about them - in a society that does not live by laws and rules but on influence - yes, even here it is finding a neighbor or business friend who knows the seller to influence the seller to take their offer They use every emotional rational you can imagine regardless if the seller is Indian, Asian, Mexican, or as we whites are called Anglos - that use of influence is how, we see in the news, groups form for or against how women are treated and how the police attempt to carry out justice.
To me this is a dilemma that is deeper than looking at rape in US collages or any of the other myriad ways that western women are de-valued.
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I think it is testosterone poisoning (re: Click and Clack). Boys grow up competing in everything. Buddiedom is the result of mutual aid to some outside threat. Without that bond, everyone is perceived to be a competitor. And, yes, size does matter. I have worked with two men whose physical endowments were on the plus plus size, as stated by women who had been intimate with them. They swaggered as they walked, announcing their self perceived superiority. What woman can 'compete' with that How many times a day do they expose their shortcomings (pun intended) in the men's room?
re: East Indians, I've heard that they are terrible passengers, treating flight attendants as personal servants, i.e., expecting them to change baby's diaper! Arrogance to the utmost. Coloring our expectations much as 'The Ugly American' did post WWII.
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To a great woman! If you are a Maya Angelou fan, or just want to hear some good life advice, turn to OWN. Oprah is airing many of her interviews with Maya through thus whole evening. It's a real life lesson!
Jean
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I read a lot of Angelou, but did not like her in person much at all..
East Indians, we have a lot of them in central Florida and I have always stayed as far away as possible. We had two real estate agents in the office I worked in for a while and they handled most of them.l Very difficult clients and given to being truly obnoxious with what they want.
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Apparently George Will has written an outrageous column about rape. I have not actually read it, and I look forward to doing so soonest. Everyone seems to be calling for him to be fired. I have never liked his politics, but have admired his writing and, most especially, his love of and knowledge about baseball. I have always thought I might like the person himself, but as I just stated, I have hated his politics. This, however, blows my mind. It does not at all fit with the person I thought I knew. Oh well.
One cannot help but wonder what the women in his life think!
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Hmm, I get Washington Post on my IPAD. Is he in it??
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This was the quote for the day on Wordsmith this morning.
A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
I believe that in the course of the next century the notion that it's a woman's duty to have children will change and make way for the respect and admiration of all women, who bear their burdens without complaint or a lot of pompous words! -Anne Frank, diarist (1929-1945)
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George Will has been in The Washington Post and Newsweek for eons and eons, Steph. This particular column is titled: COLLEGES BECOME THE VICTIMS OF PROGRESSIVISM and it was published on June 6, 2014.
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Ginny: Don't you think the women in George Will's life are well aware of his attitudes? I'm going to look up that column. Will has never appealed to me for a variety of reasons and it seems he has lived down to my expectations.
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I read the column.. He had some real points. The college girl mentioned was probably the stupidest individual I have ever seen. Not sure rape was the word for her. Stupid is better by far. He was really making points on the colleges and their crackdowns. I think they need to crack down,but there are a tremendous number of girls who go to school, drink themselves dumber than normal, then complain .. Take charge of your life .. Young women need to think of this. Having just spent some time with my 18 y.o . granddaughter, I see that they have a need to be grown up and in charge, but are not quite sure how to do it.
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But Steph, his use of this frivolous girl as an example of ALL college women is cruel and unfair, and his overall tone is dismissive of women altogether. He definitely seems to be trying to say all women are liars and there is no such crime as rape; and Galfriend, you and I know THERE IS!
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Jackie, not me this time. :). Haven't read the George Will.
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I am thinking drinking yourself numb is still not a reason for guy to rape a girl - just like a young girl should be able to walk in her house after getting out of the tub without feeling responsible for what a male family member does to her naked body. Thinking the other way we do not have guys fearing if they drink till numb a girl is going to rape them or a man in his home thinking he will be fondled or more when he leaves the tub or shower. This business of hormones work both ways - what is lacking is equal respect.
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I agree, making the bad decision to drink so much you can't make good decisions should not give anybody the option of putting their hands on you, or worse. I'm not crazy about some of the tight or lack of clothing that some women are wearing these days, but that also does not open the door for any man to assume ownership, in any way.
Has Will never heard of the date-rape drug? That's one of the scariest things happening these days.
Jean
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I am not saying George is right, but I am saying that I knew girls when I was in college who did the stupidest possible things deliberately.Then they would whine and cry and go...oh no it is not my fault , I was drinking or sleepy or not paying attention. I also feel that given the hormonal drive, it only makes sense to use some sense in what you do or wear or say.. Not for or against rape, but for common sense.
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I understand exactly where y'all are coming from, and I agree with you totally respecting (or not!) the choices those women make.
What drives me insane is using these frivolous, crazy-insane examples as an excuse to exculpate the entire male college sex of any and all charges of rape.
It is very similar to giving a couple of outrageous examples of welfare fraud, and then deciding to quit programs to feed starving children. Scheesch!
FACT! WOMEN GET WAYLAID AND RAPED.
Women who are NOT scantily attired (and yes, I agree; women in Bikinis or whatever are STILL not "asking for it.") or drunk, or who have even HAD a swallow of alcohol, get raped. Women in twos and threes get raped. But ladies, little girls get raped. Babies get raped. We HAVE to admit and acknowledge that rape is a terrible threat to our sex and make better, stronger laws to protect ourselves.
Men such as Will going out of their way to dismiss rape and put it all on us is just so damn typical, I could puke!
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To me saying girls should dress and act a certain way is saying a guy has no control over his hormonal instincts - we know that is not true since we all know, within our community of family and friends that many of our young men are decent guys who respect women and would not take advantage of a situation - so why the difference - why are some so incapable of feeling if a girl does not act in a certain way or dress in the certain way she is asking for it - I still say turn it around and if a guy were to act or dress inappropriately he is seldom at risk to be raped.
Once we accept what has been known for years now - at least going back to the mid 1980s, that a sexual assault, regardless incest or rape is about the use of power expressed as power over someone using sex, that for some is expressed, as in the not too distant past, as starting a fight - it is the same impulse -
We have stopped men starting a fist fight at the drop of a hat on the street or in a bar and that was blamed on their tempter or "irish" heritage or "German" heritage. We have adults still finding it difficult to stop slapping and hitting kids - which is a power over to get the kid to do what the slapper wants - if these behaviors can be shamed and made into a cartoon of clownish behavior than it could be done for rape - Problem, too many do not touch sexual abuse because of the titillation that confuses folks so they do not see rape and incest as power-over behavior but something that is more a shaming and a misuse of sex with all the social taboos surrounding sex and the awareness that there is something about sex that seems different than getting slapped or hit. It is that very nature of sexual abuse that makes it hard to "get past" and although, the armed services has made PTSD their own it came from and is experienced among women and young girls who are sexually abused -
A soldier did not join up expecting PTSD although, they had an idea they were in danger for loss of life and limb they still did not cause the traumatic events that may have even saved their life that resulted in PTSD - well a girl should not be born expecting PTSD will be her life because of someone's inability to control their hormonal desires and their need to express their sex fantasy without a give and take but with someone they can control.
If we want to say a soldier goes into the service with eyes wide open and learns active behavior that if he ever makes a mistake that is the cause of his dealing with PTSD - No, we realize beyond his control things happen - I think girls should not grow up thinking they are the cause of what happens to them and it is their mistake that a guy abused them.
All these folks who want to give the responsibility for rape to the girls forget that sexual abuse is sexual abuse and dismiss what happens to the 2 year old or 7 year old little girl - how do you prepare her for this responsibility for her abuse - the law is finally seeing otherwise and so now we should have different tiers of what a guy's uncontrollable hormones allows - past a certain age he passes his lack of control onto girls who must be trained to learn that a guy, man or boy is unable to control the functions of his body.
As to girls risking and teasing - if they were not made to feel helpless to a mans lack of control they would not be testing it - if we could all walk through life without dwelling on how a guy will act and re-act to women it would be a mute point -
The idea the kids should learn all this is school - well ask but in a friendly curious way so you get a real answer - most teachers skip over those chapters in 'teen living' classes because they are uncomfortable and so girls are still only learning from each other and older sisters and maybe a mom or two. Oh we can all say our teacher daughter or niece or nephew teach this to their students but lets face it we are only a drop in the bucket and our friends and family members who do have teachers in their family and who do teach this subject are the very few.
We are not fed a diet on TV of appropriate behavior toward women and girls and we do not have shows that explain sex or power - power is used in a story line and sometimes we are for and sometimes against the one with the power however, that power over others is NEVER shown as one of the basis for sexual abuse.
Those who want to minimize the attacks on girls as being caused by them to me are suggesting it is OK for young men to be sent into harms way based on our feelings - our feelings of another nation not besting us or our interests and if they come back having seen the horrors of war we will minimize it and say they have PTSD, many are affected for life - and that is what happens to most girls and women who are sexually abused in rape or incest, PTSD for life. Any time they are in a helpless situation they knee jerk slip back into being helpless - that is part of PTSD. Then they try to show to themselves they can handle this and put themselves into situations believing they can control the outcome - they loose again -
If a young girl was shamed for her sex growing up she is prime for trying to prove she is able to be sexual - that need for righting her view of her own sexuality is much stronger than reason and she purposely baits thinking she can control the outcome so that when she looses it is a double whammy bringing back all the feelings of the original shaming.
What I see is for a couple of years in the press we are hearing one after the other story of how women are less - and now they are at the bottom of the barrel back to the 1950s approach that women are responsible for a man's bad behavior.
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Barb: How true. Remember the old saying about the man who looks under his wife's bed for a suspected lover does so because he has been there himself.
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Rape is power pure and simple and I do agree that it is wrong under any circumstances. Rape in war zones is beyond belief wrong.. My point that I am not good at making is that I am sorry, I have known women who used their bodies as a way to get what they want. Who take off their clothes in public and act like total idiots. Then they whine and cry and blame all others, never themselves.. There are women in this world who truly amaze me with their wilful nasty behavior. I know.. I know.. but darn it all they need to take some responsibility.
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We've had a case going on here. In a neighboring county, three boys have been charged with sexual assault on a girl (who was drunk, or drugged) at a post-prom party, including penetration with a foreign object. Obviously lots of hoo-raw about it in the paper, etc.
A local columnist wrote a column to the effect that the problem was "not about beer", but about the assault. Then there was the George Will column (which has not been in our local paper).
This column in the editorial section of today's paper refers to both pieces - worth a few minutes to read.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/jun/15/two-columns-two-views-of-rape/?opinioncolumns
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This is the most important statement in that excellent piece:
"One of the biggest problems with the rape culture phenomenon continues to be the way that it minimizes the experience of the victim, in some cases actually rallying support for the perpetrators," PolicyMic stated.
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Maryz, thank you for that link. It is worth reading and thinking about.
I think, Steph, your statement about "willful nasty behavior" could be applied to both sexes.
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Steph I know what you are speaking of - girls who titillate boys and men justifying it to themselves as getting what they want - and getting what you want using sex is exactly what the rapist does - however, no one yet has found a link to why some boys and men use rape and incest to get what they want - both, immediate satisfaction and in the case of incest and neighbor using girls, it is to have continual power over them - the closest they have come is that these men are addicts addicted to sex as others are addicted to the results of liquor or drugs - another tier of addiction is eating and shopping etc.
However, most girls who titillate are attempting to set to right and win this time what was their childhood experience - many girls are made to feel humiliated and helpless as a girl - anything from laughing when they have their first menstruation or teasing when their body starts to show signs of being a women to simple things like making in fun of their ability to learn to drive or how they drive just like a woman - on and on it goes - some internalize it so that we are more careful and do not speak up - others feel shame - others are hurt and may feel guilty or want acceptance and wanting acceptance leads them to be needy therefore, dependent on others for approval. And so the co-dependent wife is created...the result of her childhood experience.
Now the other is to feel angry that as a powerless kid you cannot express but the resentment is there - and this is where the girls who titillate boys are coming from - they want to get it right - they want to win this time - ask them and they do not understand what they are doing anymore than it takes years of therapy to understand your co-dependency and after all that to understand it is still a struggle to not knee jerk react - these girls do not do 'like for like' except, to them they had been trained as a child to make them feel less and to be the perfect child someone shamed them because of their sex and so, as adults, who expect to have more power than those who used their power to control them as children, 'do unto others (men) what was done unto them' - tease them sexually to get what they want.
Yes, it can make us uncomfortable - and no we cannot help them to change - many do not change until they cannot get what they want any longer on their looks or sexual innuendos. So please it is not the girls/women we need to be upset and angry with - it is how they were treated as children and how we treat girl children today and what all this making women into second class citizens that is going on is re-traumatizing many women who were made powerless to be treated with dignity when they were children. It brings back the wave of anger or guilt or shame or - or - or...
There have been so many studies showing that anyplace from 75% to 90% of girls who work strip bars and prostitutes were sexually abused as children - a side note that is seldom made public - we had so many girls become nuns when they wore a habit not because of the good works they did - it was safe for those girls who felt unworthy, afraid, guilt and shame because of sexual trauma as children. The habit was a shield just like caring little for your body since others showed no respect for it and therefore flashing your body because you are not really attached to it and it becomes both a shield to the inner-self and a battering ram.
The un-comfort you feel may never go away and averting eyes even in a movie showing women who do not respect their own body as an embarrassment but please just say a prayer for these women - their behavior did not get plucked out of no-where.
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My husband and I were the targets of a predatory woman who worked with him and had a truly horrible time with her. She finally lost her job because she was doing this not only to my husband, but one of the principals in the firm. A truly awful woman, who walked up to us the first time we met her and grabbed my husband by his genital area and said loudly, " hmm, I think I will take you, you look tasty to me" I still remember the phone calls, the drive bys, the absolute nonsense.. I never want to have anyone go through wht I did. I still think rape is wrong under any circumstances, but I do not believe that all women are trying to get back things.. I think some people are born wrong and never change.
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Wow! The comment to the Times Free Press article is alarming. First of all, why can't people have a disagreement of opinion without name calling? I have given up reading the comments in our local digital " newsletter", the Patch. What could be an informational discussion is destroyed by people who appear to not be able to voice their opinion with out being snide and sarcastic, or worse, to those who differ.
Secondly, this man has daughters. I wonder what his response would be if one of them was in the situation of the 18 year old in the story. Would he be supportive of her, or chastise her?
Jackie, you make some interesting, and as always, well written comments, well worth thinking about. Is there any of us who was not teased/ harassed/put down about our bodies in our teen, and maybe adult years? We just didn't have a name for it other then "boys will be boys."
Steph, i'm sorry for you and your husband's horrible experience, how awful for you. Yes, harassment and stalking from women should not be any more accepted then when men harass and stalk. It's all about "my power over you" ( or my need to have your attention, even if it turns out to be negative attention), whatever the power may be. Generally, the woman who behaves like that is mocked, or encouraged, by men who hope to benefit, but who don't see themselves, or their friends as being the same pitiful creature when they harass women. They see them as humorous, or ones who might "get lucky", or as jerks. But seldom talk to them about not doing it, because it's just "boys being boys" and isn't that funny.
Unfortunately we don't teach many girls or boys how to respond assertively to such aggression. One of the programs at The Alice Paul Institute is to teach girls to respond assertively in many circumstances including sexual harassment to themselves or when they observe harassment to others.
Doesn't it make you sad that these circumstances have not changed much in 50 years? I was at a wedding on Sat where almost every woman between 20 and 60, whether married or single, was wearing 4,5 or 6 inch heels and short, tight dresses in which they were obviously uncomfortable. I'm sure it was bcs they thought they were "sexy", but looking uncomfortable does not fit in my definition of sexy. What made me most sad was how important they thought it was to be sexy to men and to hopefully get their approval. I felt like i was back in a different version of the 50s - pointy bras, girdles - whether you need them or not. One 30s something woman who was very tall and SLENDER got up from our table, pulled down her lacey spandex dress and made a comment about having to go fix her SPANKS. My dgt, DIL and i looked at each other w/ raised eyebrows of "she thinks she needs spanks!?!" .......... Siiiigh.........
I thought we had already fought that fight.
Jean
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Yes, I noted in both London and Paris, the dresses were incredibly short and tight and riding up all the time.. along with heels that were ankle breakers. Amazing. Like you, I thought we had gotten past all that. I guess as we get older, we do, but the young refight the battle all the time.
Our stalker was excused because she was mentally ill according to her friends, etc. I don't honestly know what was wrong with her. I know that she eventually got aids, would not take the meds and died.. So her life was relatively short. I would be wiling to bet that a lot of people we knew went immediately to be tested when they heard of her diagnosis.
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Gosh Steph how ugly for both of you - could you imagine a guy coming up in public to a women and doing that - he would be promptly thrown in jail - or at least we hope and imagine he would - she had to have been mentally ill - it was not just sexual abuse but the public display made it even more -
Interesting about the dress you noticed in Europe - when I see it here I think the TV series of Mad Men is at the basis - have not and will not watch it - I lived the 50s and it was not fun. Heck in order to get a promotion the guy's wife had to pass muster by the managers observance that often included his wife getting to know you so she could be the judge - an English drama showing the class system could easily have been replaced for the ways of American 1950s. And now we have guys idealizing that time - I guess it all has to do with the pyramid created with men on top and no women competing for a top spot during the 50s
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I married in the late 50's but my husband was a disc jockey, so we really did not have to conform. He was expected to be far out and as his wife, I was too . I always laughed at what they considered our glamerous life.. It wasn't, but people see only what they want to.
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Ain't THAT the truth!
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Some of our problems with the stalker involved the fact that she followed my husband home from the radio station and I was quite pregnant and she barged into the house..So we started off at a bad point.When I called the police after I realized she was hanging around our house all the time, they did nothing, because ( and I quote) she was not harming anyone. Sigh.. I guess hate mail, 2am phone calls and the in his face behavior when he did sock hops and personal appearance did not count.
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Oh Steph to feel so helpless - and that was the way it was for any domestic issue - I remember it was only in the early 1990s that the fine for men who battered their wives went from a $25 misdemeanor to something substantial and still the police had to be trained to take domestic violence as serious much less take seriously sexual abuse of any kind.
At the time I was volunteering at the Battered Women's Center and the worst were the cops themselves who waited in the area since they were the only ones who knew what secluded home was being used for the center and hope to catch either their own or their buddies wife attempting to catch the bus or leave the safety of the house in order to get a job or whatever. They did grab a couple of wives in this process.
As to your situation it sounds like what many in the entertainment business have to endure. I wonder what it is about folks doing their job in that field that attracts so many nuts.
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Yes, my husband wasn't famous by any stretch, but it does not take much to cause problems. After we had moved and he was working at a station in Colmbia,SC, I was working as a bookkeeper at an entertainment complex several days a week. I noted a man who kept coming in and simply hanging around. I found out he was asking people about me and who I was married to.. Then one day, when I took the bus home and picked up the baby, I realized that I saw him when I was entering our apartment complex. That really made me wary. I checked with others who worked in the complex. He had been out of a mental institution for possibly a month or so. Then Tim told me of a very very rabid fan with the same last name. Darn it all. it was the mans wife.. We did not know or have any contact with them, but he told his friends, he was going to hurt me, because my husband had stolen his wife.. My boss at the time was a big time politician and he called the police and they took him in and called his psychiatrist, who readmitted him.. From that day on, we kept our address, telephone or even our real names out of the public. I was delighted when my husband decided the radio business was not what he really wanted.
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I can remember being in grade school and wanting to be famous when I grew up. You know, a princess or a movie star. There were not many options to imagine in those days. Many institutions of higher learning were closed to women, and in those that accepted them only teaching and nursing were available. But the bottom line was that I imagined being famous. Rich and powerful and world known and adored.
It is interesting to me to find myself, at 85, yearning to go back and be even more unknown than I was. Very active in my community and in my children's schools as a young adult, I was well known in my own small pond, as it were, in those years. I was not striving for personal fame and glory by then, but only to make a positive difference. Now I realize that the best life of all is led quietly, unseen and unheard, without contention or controversy. Anonymous. I would choose, could I do it all over again, to be nobody at all.
Isn't it funny, how things evolve? Steph, I cringe at what you went through. Somehow now, with all the other stuff I have heard and read about, as well, I equate being in the public eye with being in danger. I now choose hidden safety, thank you very much!
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I can remember when my sons were in school.. I went through a stage of being Tim's wife, timmy and dan's Mom, Bridget and Dudleys ( corgi) owner and show person,Marilyn Maids Rider.. etc etc. I just wanted to be Stephanie, but that was really hard at that point. Now of course I am just Stephanie and that suits me fine.
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(http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/WomenWorkforce.png)
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Thank you, Barbara - this came up in another discussion I was having, so the information is helpful.
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The chart was amazing, but I do note that taxes in the Nordic countries are truly remarkable. They have a wonderful system and a country that is clear of immigrant in large numbers.. It does help when all work and pay in.
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Did you see this morning's Supreme Court decision - the latest against women? Hobby Lobby doesn't have to provide contraception in their health care coverage. I wonder if they do provide coverage for men's ED medication.
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It seems as if there is a conspiracy ( ;)) that aims to protect the status quo for it has been so good for that mythical 1%. Reports that the gulf between them and us is vast and growing.
Watched a story on CNBC about Jeff Bezos/Amazon. Followed by a similar look at Costco, whose mission statement seems to put the customer first. Amazon is aiming to take over the retail world is the not so hidden agenda.
Will future historians see this era as a rerun of the Robber Barons?
Forgive me for lumping these threads together, its a flaw of my sociology studies.
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I am just sick about the birth control thing.
The war against women just goes on and on and on. And the worst thing is, THE WOMEN themselves, our sex, do not feel threatened! Why NOT???!!!
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All I know is I want a list of every company, especially retail that will abide as Hobby Lobby will to reduce women's choice - at this point we have to make our economic power lead because we have little else left - personally I have never had to make the difficult choice of an abortion however, values and religious views are not tools of power over others - if God can give us free will than why should men go over the head of God as they freely go over the head of God to protect the amount of land they control...
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As you all know, Hobby Lobby is an Oklahoma corporation - wholly owned by the Green family (no other investors).
If I understand the local news stories correctly, the family objects to two kinds of contraceptive devices- the IUD and the "Morning After" pill. They consider each of these "a form of early abortion".
I have neither read nor heard that they object to contraceptive devices that block fertilization. Neither have I read that they plan to insure - or not insure - these.
Just FYI. I agree with your opinions on women's choices.
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Callie: That is an important clarification.
See Justice Ginsberg's 35-page dissent discussed here
http://news.yahoo.com/read-justice-ginsburgs-passionate-35-page-dissent-hobby-152626544.html
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You will notice that the justices who voted in favor of Hobby Lobby had one thing in common -- they were all men!
Hillary Clinton was quoted by Yahoo News in an interview in Aspen, Colorado:
"The decision means that thousands of the company’s female employees will not have access through their insurance to intrauterine devices and other forms of contraception their bosses object to. The case is the first to uphold a religious freedom right of a for-profit corporation.
"It's troubling a sales clerk at Hobby Lobby who needs contraception — which is pretty expensive — is not going to get that service through her employer's health care plan because her employer doesn’t think she should be using contraception," Clinton said.
The former secretary of state predicted that as a result of the decision, "many more companies will claim religious beliefs. Some may be sincere, some may not."
I have a question. Is it just the "morning-after pill" that Hobby Lobby wants to prevent their insurance from paying? Since they consider life begins with conception, they call it an abortion pill. Or will they prevent their insurance from paying for any pregnancy prevention care or medication as well?
Marj
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marjifay it is all up in the air - there was a great article I read yesterday evening - there are already I think the number is 91 companies that are going to opt out as a result of this ruling - the small family owned is an illusion - some are quite large but because of ownership fall into the bracket - but greater is the wording - I need to find the article because in order for the legal move to NOT say because of religious ideology and that is not the word either but that was the meaning, anyhow Alito uses another word that really messes things up so that it leaves the door open to any disagreement with any aspect of life that we try to contain considering all the differences in the US - the law leaves the door open for instance to making it legal for a company owned by Muslims to expect all the women to follow their traditions.
I thought it would be easy to simply not purchase goods from any company that opts out paying for women's health needs (while having no difficulty paying for men's sex needs) however, many of the companies listed were making parts that are part of another device like parts for an auto or mechanical health devices. Of course lots of religious schools and whole parishes - one of the Democratic Congressmen from this area blames it all on the recent change that companies, corporations are individual people with in some cases more rights than an individual.
Let me see if I can find that article.
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Scalise...hmm, it occurs to me that if you are a devout catholic, maybe you could recuse yourself from issues like this.
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I think maybe you hit on a fact that I have never considered as a factor, namely that MOST of us have never been faced with having to get an abortion. Having known first hand girls and women who DID, and having been raised to be a raging feminist by my suffragette great grandmother, I have always been avid for a woman's right to choose. But you have a point which, as I say, I have never considered: that most women have not had to think about the problem and therefore do not identify with it and just flat out don't give it much thought.
Hmmm.
I've been wondering where the outrage was. I have read that it did not exist in Ireland until that young wife and mother had to have an abortion immediately or die, and the State refused permission, and she died. Remember? A year or two or so ago. Some kind of something occurring and happening fast that the doctors said they had to remove the fetus or both mother and fetus were gonners. And the State, infused with the church beliefs, said no way. So both mother and fetus died, she begging the doctors to save her! Now there are women organizing in Ireland, up in arms. When, oh when are we going to win this battle? The pessimist in me answers wearily: when men can get pregnant.
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Have you ever noticed the HUGE irony, if you can dignify it by calling it that, that the same armies of men who oppose birth control are the same identical regiments of men who want to bar all of the hundreds of thousands of children from Central and South America who were born to overpopulated countries due to church-driven lack of contraception from entrance to this country, where they might at least have a chance to eat!
OMG, they have to be born! God WILLS them to be born! And it is the call to duty for these men to see to it that every conceived fetus IS born! But then, let them starve! Their mothers had the sex, so by golly they better have the babies. Then it is those same over sexed women who have to find a means to feed them!
Men? Oh, they have no responsibility beyond seeing that there are no doctors performing abortions. Doctors will be shot dead or lose their licenses to practice, if they do. But men are not the over sexed ones! Good grief, No! Perish the thought!
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Problem Steph 5 of them are Practicing Catholics - all sorts of stats that show 90 -95% of all Catholic Women in the US use birth control -
This says it all you just have to get past the ad - no way to get rid of them on youtube anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk&list=RDfUspLVStPbk#t=0
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I saw this this morning. My husband and I, our four daughters and two granddaughters are speechless.... (emphasis is mine)
True statement made by Justice Alito yesterday. Just read it. And weep.
By a 5–4 vote on Monday, the United States Supreme Court settled a dispute that Justice Samuel Alito said was “at its core about the rights of women versus the rights of people.”
Writing for the majority, Justice Alito wrote, “It is the duty of this Court, whenever it sees that the rights of people are being threatened, to do our best to safeguard those rights. In this case, it is clear that people’s rights were being threatened by women.”
Acknowledging that some women “might argue that they, too, have some claim to being people,” Justice Alito wrote, “That is an interesting question for another day.”
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OK.... :D :D :D :'(
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Marjifay...The TV News said Hobby Lobby owners object to the "morning after" pill and to interuterine devices. That's all I've heard on that issue of what. I know I will not spend a single penny in any HobbyLobby from this day forward.
Mary...By a 5–4 vote on Monday, the United States Supreme Court settled a dispute that Justice Samuel Alito said was “at its core about the rights of women versus the rights of people.”
Writing for the majority, Justice Alito wrote, “It is the duty of this Court, whenever it sees that the rights of people are being threatened, to do our best to safeguard those rights. In this case, it is clear that people’s rights were being threatened by women.”
Acknowledging that some women “might argue that they, too, have some claim to being people,” Justice Alito wrote, “That is an interesting question for another day.”
I am speechless!!
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Further proof that we are not equal and I suspect that we never will be. Women's rights vs. people's rights. I'm convinced that the root is economic, i.e. power. CEO behavior in many instances is downright psychopathic (http://www.forbes.com/sites/victorlipman/2013/04/25/the-disturbing-link-between-psychopathy-and-leadership/), extrapolating typical male traits to an extreme in my view. Early mankind learned the necessity for group action for survival of the species. The western world was Catholic for centuries, leadership fostering paternalism,until Martin Luther pointed the way for the individual to act in in his own interests and reap the resulting rewards, known now as the Protestant Ethic. Basically, self-interest whatever the cost, is rewarded-wealth, prestige, power over lessers .
Sorry, that soapbox is too tempting. I'll put it away for now.
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Well, I would like to point out that regardless of the flavor of the religion, be it Christian or Jewish or Islamic or Buddhist or Hindi or whatever, the founders and the conveyers of the "Word of God" have always been males. Always. It is now as it ever has been with our species, only World With End, males cannot exist without the adrenaline rush of having power over females.
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why this is so demeaning is it allows men to continue to see women as less than - yes, there are other issues at stake here - she is black and he believes he is above the law much less above human dignity as does his supervisors - but this is the kind of treatment that goes hand and glove with this basic disrespect for women.
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/cops-find-elliot-rodger-polite-body-slam-black-woman-professor-jay-walking-stop?akid=11975.271994.Hvsucq&rd=1&src=newsletter1008624&t=11
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You know, I watched this from the beginning, not the cut off bit here, which is after the struggle had begun, but the raw footage when it came in, and I don't think that this is an example of wrongdoing on the part of the police. He asked her repeatedly to give her ID, she was found wandering in the middle of the street at night, and she escalated it way out of line, in my opinion, beginning to shout and resisting and struggling and protesting, and carrying on. Isn't that called resisting arrest? You can definitely hear his and her comments. Then she kicked him in the shin, because her attorney says she thought he was reaching for her. I don't see that on the film. I see her kicking him and his surprise.
I think this one is blown way out of proportion by the press and the editing and the woman herself and the pundits. There was nothing remotely cooperative about her in this incident.
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from the article I read her skirt went up and she felt humiliated - I do think there was a less confrontational way of handling this regardless her status as a professor - I can only see it was a power over moment that too many women experience. There was no protection of her dignity - if he was really concerned for her safety and to teach a lesson he would have taken her by the arm and crossed her over to the sidewalk and then given her the lecture so she could hear rather than be humiliated - but to do that means the policemen would have to be about law and order, protection and teaching rather than power over treating every misdemeanor like a major crime.
This appeared to escalated when she responded that he really did not want to do this - and for sure he wanted to make a point of doing this - since when in the US did we become like many countries pre WWII where we had to identify ourselves with proof on public streets or expect to be manhandled. This is the kind of disrespect that comes when there is a national disrespect for women who are denied services, advancement opportunities, equal pay, health care on the same level as a man.
Yes, like a petulant child she kicked him - what would any of do in a situation where we were publicly humiliated - after years of doing what it takes to be good enough and then treated like that exposing our undergarment in the process - would we be more comfortable if she meekly became the docile criminal the officer would have preferred.
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Again, I'm sorry, I disagree. He asked her politely for her ID. Over and over and over, addressing her as "ma'am, telling her why, telling her the law. But no, she began to thrash around and carry on. How on earth does anybody expect the police to protect us, when some of us seem to think that we are above the law?
I think she panicked and did not want to show her ID because she was embarrassed at her own situation. I thought at the time she was D&D and maybe that's the case too. It will be interesting to see what the truth was about her behavior and how this plays out with her college.
There isn't one set of rules for some people and others for others. I can't imagine why she could not have engaged in civil conversation with him and shown him her ID, which he requested many times. He knew it was being filmed. Maybe she did not.
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OK we do disagree - here is a paper that goes to my view of things.
http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1759&context=faculty_scholarship
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Yes it talks specifically about the workplace but then for a police officer his workplace is the streets of his city.
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As for the SCOTUS decisions, As for the SCOTUS decisions,
This is very weird - it will only post that first phrase of my reply..........let me try ne more time. It shows all three paragraphs in the "reply" box.
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As for the SCOTUS decisions, I haven't been this angry, depressed and hopeless about the attitudes toward women since 1976 when NJ voted down a referendum for a state ERA. A graduate school professor who knew i was workng in the campaign tp pass it had said to me the night before in class "how can anyone vote against an Equal Rights Amendment!?!"
Alice Paul is turning over in her grave. When she went to her grave in 1977 the national ERA had been passed out of cngress and radified immediately by 20 states and the SCOTUS had decided Roe v Wade. BUT, in 1970, conservatives Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Buchanan, Wolfiwitz, etc had coalesced in the Nixon administration and then came the Reagan administration. What happened to all the moderate Republicans?!? Who are they voting for? What are they thinking?
I saw a poster that said "Be Honest: if the shoe was on the other foot! IF the owner of Hobby Lobby was a devout Muslim instead of a devout Christian; IF these open-carry advocates gathering en masse w/ large guns in public places had darker skins; IF undocumented migrants were flowing over our northern border rather than our southern one!?!"
I'll add: WHAT IF five women jurists said insurance companies cannot pay for viagra type meds, or prostate surgery?
Would the conservative position be reversed????
Throwing my hands up, shaking my head!!!
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O.K.!!!
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My comment exactly, Jean!
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On top of all that, i just heard some R congressman say "these women are NOT DEPENDING ON THEIR HUSBANDS to get their insurance!!! Meaning that they should be married and dependent! OMG it's getting crazier and crazier.
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This has gradually been getting worse in the last 4 or 5 years - its like Shiraz law US style. Taking the individual nature of a women to have an independent mind and be treated as an independent person limited to her anatomy and its functions. - this control over women is many spheres of life is really painful - well most of the lawyers I know and there are many have been saying for years as they became disillusioned - that there is no justice in law. This lack of justice in the law is now even the feature of shows from Masterpiece Theater like the recent show starring David Tennant. I am having a difficult time with this round to respond with my usual tongue and cheek statements - this is beyond being sublet - I gotta stay off the internet for awhile - I need to balance myself - I am pacing instead of getting anything done.
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An interesting insight on the SCOTUS decision by a liberal:
http://theweek.com/article/index/264029/why-liberals-should-cheer-the-hobby-lobby-decision
What makes me depressed is how this is being used politically. When I first heard that this fight was a political ploy by dems for fund-raising - to continue their mantra about the GOP's 'war on women' - I could not believe this! The world is becoming an ever more dangerous place; I don't believe women are single-issue voters obsessed with their own sexuality, but apparently my own Senator does! There are many inexpensive and free methods of getting access to the 4 types of contraception (out of 20 mandated) that will not be offered; employees of Hobby Lobby themselves make twice the minimum wage and enjoy sharing in the company's profits.
I also keep in mind that the law being discussed here is the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act - a law introduced by NY's other senator (Schumer) signed by Bill Clinton with a near unanimous vote of the democrats. It is hard to listen to Hillary Clinton's 'outrage' here. It's the law.
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What if the confrontation had been between Officer Doe and a white, professional man?
Who wouldn't feel threatened by the police demand for my ID when I was simply crossing the street?
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Interesting article in The Week, a different perspective. The author suggests this would not be an issue if we had single payer in this country. I wonder.
Also, I had not heard that the case was a "political ploy by dems" - where is that from?
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I have always been all for a single payer plan. Most Democrats have been. But the country just would not adopt the idea.
This morning, The Washington Post has an article saying the contraception/Hobby Lobby thing is not Alito's fault, but the fault of the Congress who passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in 1993. The religious conservatives who pushed through the RFRA had first in their minds getting rid of women's rights.
When you think on it, it is almost as though religions have been invented for the primary purpose of keeping women in their place, for that is where ALL the rules about our attire and behavior have originated! Not to mention those regulating our sex lives!
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I am simply at this point keeping a list of any company that opts out.. If they in any way are retail or you can buy their product, I wont and I will write them a letter to assure they understand and ask about Viagra and how in heavens name they can pay for something simply for pleasure.. It is so sad.
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Again, not to belabor the point here, I think there is more to this than a simple jaywalking issue, and really I want to wait and see how it plays out. There's no point in my discussing it further, so these are my last thoughts on it: she brought it, in my opinion, on herself. And her history seems a bit spotted for erratic behavior.
Apparently her current employer, Arizona State, has reviewed the tapes and decided to support the police in this issue, and they've called in an independent set of experts to also review the incident (the entire tapes) and be sure. That is not good news for her.
I think there's more to this issue. But if a man or woman of any color or sex or age were found walking in the middle of a dark public street, was nearly hit by a car and thus stopped by the police and asked to get on the sidewalk for their own safety and that of the motorists trying to drive in the road, and the walker then refused, repeatedly, then I don't see any surprise when identification is asked for. That's normally the first thing any policeman does, isn't it? The state of Arizona, in addition, in a widely published controversial decision a year or so ago, does allow ID to be checked. It's the law. Everybody in the country knows that, including those who move to Arizona. She repeatedly complained he wasn't showing "respect," but he showed a lot more than she did.
I think when she was uncooperative and belligerent about being asked to step out of traffic on a dark street she brought it on herself. And trying to wrestle with the police? That's a smart move. You can hear him saying stop fighting me.
I looked her up to see what there might be about her on the internet, because something appears wrong with this picture, and it appears in her former employment she had some very strange evaluations. I've actually never seen any as bad as hers, and it appears she was terminated, (of course somebody had put in the token anonymous perfect stellar ones, too, to try to raise the rating) but when you have somebody teaching who does not show up for class when they feel like it, and provides incomprehensible lectures and sometimes says things which don't make sense, and gets SUCH poor ratings, such as I can't believe she is teaching here.... something else is going on.
As far as humiliation, I think her behavior humiliated herself. If you don't want, any of us, to wrestle with the police which can only have one end, then don't initiate it yourself. Man or woman, old or young, of color or not.
In my opinion, and I could be, and often am, wrong, she now is seeking a public campaign to raise the legal fees necessary, having been charged with 4 counts, to defend herself and play the race/sex/ harassment card, because otherwise I can't imagine who would hire her ever again. Her entire career is now on the line.
She's done this to herself, in my opinion, with poor judgment, and we all have that from time to time, myself included. This may BE one of those times I'm off base. We'll see. (And just to be perfectly clear, I don't think the professor is in any way the "victim" in this case.)
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This reminds me to check the facts before forming an opinion. Perhaps I am too quick to see parallels were the facts do not support that conclusion. Thank you, Ginny, for your wisdom and non-judgmental discussion. Next time I will pay more attention when I find myself taking a position on the other side of an issue than yours.
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the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in 1993. The religious conservatives who pushed through the RFRA had first in their minds getting rid of women's rights.
All but a couple of Dems signed on to this law - they voted FOR it - it was initiated by Schumer - a big Dem from NY, more liberal you could not be! - and it was signed into law by Bill Clinton! who is hardly a 'religious conservative'? Really?
The same ruling pointed out that HHS already has set in place FREE coverage for contraceptives (insurance companies will 'swallow' the cost) for non-profit religious institutions that have been allowed to opt out of the mandate. No one is hurt. No one is being slighted. I don't understand the source of all this angst? ???
There are people in the world - male and female, people of faith and people of no faith - who are opposed to abortion. They view it as murder. Here, they believe that the unborn child is an American citizen and deserves the same protection of the law that you receive. That is their opinion. They aren't forcing it on you - they are simply not wanting to be forced to be complicit in the practice. How is using the law to force others to comply to your point of view somehow superior to using religion?
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For those who are considering the merits of single payer:
Please carefully follow the VA stories.
Imagine the reaction of the woman a few days ago who opened her husband's letter from the VA to read that the agency, in trying to comply with requests for service in a timely manner, was asking her husband to please call for an appointment now as there was an opening. Her husband had died two years before - of a brain tumor.
Be very careful what you wish for!
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In expressing my point of view, I believe I am engaging in a dialogue with persons of other views. There would obviously be no point in having an opinion if absolutely everyone were in agreement. Aso, in expressing my own views and beliefs, I do not make any attempt whatsoever to force them upon anyone else. By posting my thoughts in here, I mean to share, and not to forcefeed any other woman on this planet.
I am well aware of other opinions. I do not share the opinion that abortion is murder, but I respect those who do. And yes, it is my strong opinion, based upon 85 years of watching and listening and studying history, that men have historically controlled women through religion. Yes, I believe that. That does not mean that I do not appreciate the strong spirituality of many folk, both male and female. I have gone through my own periods of deep faith. I see it as a beautiful thing, and as a downright necessity in order for whole multitudes to get through their lives of endless struggle. But I also have a strong impulse to state the facts regarding the organizational environment of our human species AS I SEE THEM before leaving this life, which I expect to do sooner rather than later.
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I think when she was uncooperative and belligerent about being asked to step out of traffic on a dark street she brought it on herself.
Ouch brought it on herself - oh oh oh - sounds too much like those who justify battering a wife in their home for an infraction .
And trying to wrestle with the police? Suggesting to me me that the attempt to manhandle her was appropriate and like someone battering their wife they are supposed to submit to this - i know you do not like the article but humiliation is the word that to me says it - he is stronger and did not have to treat her like an enemy and could have said 'I know this is upsetting but I need to do my job let's go to the sidewalk so that we can finish this out of harms way' but instead, he continues to wrestle with her in the middle of the very traffic he was saying was a danger to her.
That's a smart move. When you are confronted by a force using a power over attitude your thinking is blurred and you revert to fight flee freeze. It appears he was not going to handle anything except to treat her as a criminal.
You can hear him saying stop fighting me. Again, he expected a docile response to his authority and the power he assumes that goes with that authority.
To me this was no different than the many who come to the battered women's center with similar stories of not answering promptly or properly - clearly he has more strength and power and therefore has the obligation to level the playing field rather than to use that strength and power to body slam a woman to the ground - I only know that behavior as battering and we have centers for women who finally have the courage to leave men who batter - it makes no sense to me to create safe houses for folks who are physically attacked because they did not answer or follow the rules at home and a women can be treated in public in the same manner without any escape - to add insult to this battering she can be made libel - sorry this just goes against any grain of my ability to accept this as humane treatment - this behavioral response says if you are breaking a law no matter how minor you can be treated as if you are a dangerous armed terrorist or as if you were at home and not answering the way a batterer expects to be answered.
Yep, we do see this differently - obviously there is more behind how we see what is driving both of our reactions - I am saddened that this kind of power behavior is justified but then I have read so much in history how power is misused just because it can be - the rational that is driving our differences is probably something I cannot imagine and so peace - for me it will be a conundrum and there are many I have had to learn to live with - values and beliefs that others hold dear that I cannot wrap my head around - so we go on - peace and good will.
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Single payer is like original Medicare. Providers are independent.
The VA is more like socialized medicine in that the providers are government employees as are the facilities.
My best friend received a letter addressed to her deceased husband, a year after his death, asking him to review his insurance. She'd provided proof of death to cancel policies right after he died. That letter was an error, just as the VA letter was an error - horrible to the recipient, but typical of any large agency using computers that are not always coordinated. That problem is not limited to government.
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Precisely.
There can be no question but that the VA needs reform, but one thing I have heard on the news and read in the papers over and over and over again is that at LEAST 90% (ninety per cent) of our veterans are getting good treatment. As for the problems, they go waaaaaay back. It seems to me I have been hearing about them for at least 35 years; probably longer.
I don't think one single veteran should experience anything other than the very best and speediest treatment possible. The VA needs fixing!
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I think the difference here with the VA is that her husband had not even been given his first visit. It's not like he had insurance he was using regularly and they just responded late to a death notice; he never got seen to receive treatment for his brain tumor because he was on a waiting list. Very different.
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Its more than VA - I was divorced from this man in 1990 he finally died in 2009 or 2010 - he was never in the service and I still get mail from both his health insurance company that includes an annual summery and the company that he used to insure his vehicle wanting a renewing check and this year, mail from the State about renewing his drivers license as well as, various companies wanting him to consider a reverse mortgage although, his name is not on any legal papers since the divorce and I changed my last name - his name appears no where on any service or document associated with this property and yet, I keep receiving this mail that i toss and always have tossed.
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But that's not the same thing either. The point is that he died while he was waiting to BE SEEN by the VA! He never got off the waiting list.
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Words fail me to describe how I feel about the treatment of veterans. America asks so much, sometimes the ultimate, and in some cases treats them like beggars when they return. They are entitled to our aid and comfort after they have been through the hell that is combat.
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I have no argument if you don't believe in abortion, but I have a huge argument if you say I must obey and play only by your rules. I think that I should be in charge of my body.. no one else.. I think it is hard for the employees of any large company to grip they are not covered for some thiings. I especially think there is something wrong with a company who is supposedly religious that they cover Viagra and the like, and don't cover IUD's. Some people cannot use other methods of contraception.. Our country and the conservative judges on the supreme court worry me.. Old men have no right to determine the destiny of the rest of the people. especially if you have a religion that does not like the idea. Religion and law are two entirely separate things.
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Well, precisely!
You follow the rules of YOUR religion, with all acceptance and peace from me, and allow me the liberty to make my own medical decisions with the knowledge and assistance of a good ob/gyn who does not have to live IN THIS COUNTRY under the fear of death by religious vigilante!
We guarantee every citizen of this country the right to privacy, and we scream bloody blue murder when imagining our government has enough people on the payroll to listen in to our phone calls and read our emails, but we become mouth foaming maniacs over allowing a woman medical assistance in the matter of the workings of her womb. HER womb! The one she was born with and will carry the rest of her life! The most private and intimate parts of her body and of her bodily functioning are YOUR business? Because of YOUR religious beliefs? I don't think our constitution allows for MY religion to interfere in your private homelife, and neither does yours give you the right to interfere in mine!
I have suffered the heartbreak of one stillborn baby (cord around the neck) and 3 miscarriages. I wanted each one of those desperately. I have never had, nor sought, an abortion. But by golly, it is all MY business, and I will fight for the right of doctors to advise and women to choose. Some are even advocating a whole police the women department that will check out every reported stillbirth and miscarriage to see if they need to charge the woman with MURDER! As if there is not enough heartbreak when those things happen! I still maintain if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a Sacrament!
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I was horrified to watch those free, liberty loving citizens of a town in California who stopped those buses full of children who were being brought in for processing, and only for processing, before being sent on to other destinations. I mean, they were not going to be dumped in THEIR town; but they would not even allow them in!
Thank god a neighboring town welcomed them with open arms!
I wonder if these people, yelling and screaming through their bullhorns, stop to think (well, DO they ever think?) about the billions their tax dollars spend on relief for the men, women and children in refugee camps all over this planet? There are millions in the tiny little country of Jordan, alone; and we help to supply tents, water, food, medical services, clothing and so on. Why can we help the folks in OTHER parts of the world and feed THOSE children with tears of empathy in our eyes, and yet we cannot help the children of the peoples just to the south of our own borders? Why can't WE set up refugee camps? Some of these small, grade school aged children have walked a thousand miles to get here SO THEY CAN LIVE! Their mothers did not abort THEM, which suits these anti-immigrant minded people just fine, but then, when there is complete unrest and chaos in their countries and they send their children north in search of a safe haven, they want to send these children right back, TO BE KILLED! Hey, I am having trouble with the definition of murder here. It is wrong, some say, to "murder" something not as big as this o, but perfectly acceptable to murder these hordes of little children who say the gangs running their home towns are killing children right and left? I just cannot find the Christian love in this behavior.
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whoops only now see another post - this was my reaction to your earlier post MaryPage - I think the deal is they do not want to pay for your choice - and the way health insurance is written and the fact that they as a company have to be a party to making that payment they have objected - on that score Ginsburg is correct - there are parts of Sharia Law I object to as do others and so if a Muslim owned company wants to opt out because the health insurance policy does not fit their religious Sharia Law regardless who is hired and what their religious beliefs than this is precedent that says they can do just that. What this is doing is fracturing this nation and opening again issues of religious education following state requirements etc etc.
The issue that is current has hit a nerve with many of us but the broader picture is one to be concerned over that would gp beyond our outrage of having thought this fight was over - With Congress so busy infighting we cannot turn to them to make adjustments.
Those folks focusing on the outcome of either choice or no choice there is so much emotional reaction and that tie has been made so strong I do not know what will break it because for most folks who want women to have freedom of self determination are not thinking about abortion as if a willy nilly choice of convenience, in fact few wanting freedom for women to make their own choice about their body are even thinking at all about abortion - they are thinking of how to have the freedom to be a full citizen with the rights and power of self rather than, be a subject to the power of others through the state and through politics.
It is too close to the Soylent Green concept when others think of controlling women's bodies - they attempt to assume all women's bodies are the same with no room for differences as if we are all endowed with a cookie cutter reproductive system that could, like a factory be tooled in the same way, making OBGYNs unnecessary since they can be replaced with a law that controls, without the OBs special education, how society with law can administer women's reproductive health care.
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Those up in arms about the kids remind me an awful lot of those who were instrumental in turning back the boat load of Jews trying to escape and who ended up back in Europe to be sent to the concentration camps.
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Those children were full of disease and should have been treated before being moved. And HSA is not allowing inspections - even by congressmen on the oversight committee who happen to be attempting to visit a federal facility in their district? Why? Public policy has caused this mess. These children deserve better - as do the Border Patrol agents, and citizens of these towns over-run (ranchers are being threatened by drug smugglers as well). Let's ENFORCE EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAW before blaming communities who fear for the safety of their children.
The argument that 'a woman has a right to do what she wants with her own body' is no longer operative; actually, it was never true since NOONE is given that 'right': suicide is still illegal in most places, as is illegal drug possession/use, etc. And I don't think anyone appreciates a pregnant woman drinking or taking drugs that are contraindicated for the health of the baby?
Anyway, science now agrees with the teachings of most orthodox religions - that life begins at conception; and we're left with a conundrum since people are under the impression that abortion is legal (Roe v Wade was a decision regarding the privacy of a woman with her doctor - which is hardly private any more with public facilities). The new argument is that all life is NOT of equal value - an argument that should concern liberals deeply, especially with the government having so much more influence in health care. (I actually heard a self-proclaimed liberal man making the case for the AHCA that, because the Supreme Court has now extended the notion of imminent domain to the government's right to take property if someone wants to develop the land in a way that would enhance tax revenue, that that argument could be used in health care: someone deemed of more value to the community would get preference over health care resources, including transplants.)
At any rate - no one is being denied contraceptives (I don't know that Viagra is covered? Where did you hear that?). And the contraceptives will still be free, fully accessible. But a man who started a business in his garage in the '70"s and holds a deep faith which includes not wanting to be complicit in taking human life, has a right to express that faith in his daily life: the Constitution guarantees him the right of free expression. Again...this decision does not affect the employees IN ANY WAY! And it never should have gotten to the Supreme Court. What right does anyone have to infringe on his religious views? Hobby Lobby does not force anyone to work for them. Hobby Lobby follows a Christian ethic in their dealings with customers AND employees.
I guess I also see this from another side. As a Master's level psychiatric nurse I often counseled women on the other side of an abortion. Abortion destroys more than an unborn child: it harms women, families, community.
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And to die there. To Die There! The whole shipload on the Saint Louis, some nine hundred plus souls, refused entry into this anti-semitic country and sent back to Germany to die in those gas chambers. Men, women, children and babies. On the SAINT Louis! I wonder what the original saint, for whom the ship was named, would have thought!
Have you ever pondered the thought that we are told by men that God opposes abortion. Yet we are told that life and death are in the hands of God. And then, millions upon millions of women on this planet become impregnated every single month, only to have the fertilized egg pass right through the uterus and down the toilet, without them ever having realized. Are these all dead little god-aborted American citizens? Did God decide my beautiful baby boy should be born dead? Did he decide I had to get all happy and excited 3 more times, only to lose those little U.S. citizens, as well? Maybe someone else's god. Mine feels bad about my heartbreak. Oh, and mine did not cause my distress.
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I tried to read all angles on an issue. This is a response to an article in the Huffington Post, I had a hard time with some of what sounded like sarcasm, but its basic message is spot-on:
http://www.redstate.com/2014/07/02/huffington-post-many-catholics-supreme-court/
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I'll take issue with your last line Mogamom about abortion harming women, families and communities. I know some women who have had abortions for a variety of reasons and all of them have been perfectly healthy afterwards, as well as their families. I don't understand how a women having an abortion can harm communities.
I have been an escort at Women's health clinics and the anger and hatred of the opposition, who don't know why any individual woman is going into the clinic but attack all of them, is very harmful to the individual and to the community within hearing distance. Communities (taxpayers) must provide police officers to protect people who are behaving in a perfectly legal way from physical harm by the opposition.
I have no qualms with people believing however they believe along the spectrum of Choice to Prolife, but the disrespectful, vitriolic, hateful protests are abhorrent to me. I also find that sometimes those same people are not at all helpful to women who keep their pregnancies or to the children who result. They are often anti-welfare, anti-public day care, or any other services that might be provided to women who have their children, including the health services that the clinics provide. They are also sometimes the same people who support the death penalty and stand-your-ground laws. That hypocrisy confounds me.
I would be interested to know where the Green family stands on those other "life" issues. It would please me if they stood for "life" in all issues.
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To be Catholic or not to be Catholic does not apply in many, many cases. I have loads of family who are Catholic, and a myriad friends who are, as well. I also have nuns in my family, on both sides. Every one of them, male, female and nun, are Pro-Choice. At the Catholic High School my one daughter teaches at, when she started there over 20 years ago and there were still nuns teaching and running the school and living in the convent attached, most of the nuns were all for women priests and were for contraception and Pro-Choice. Well, you see, their own mothers had used birth control! The very last nun left that school in June of 2013. My daughter had a dinner party to wish her farewell. She went to the Mother House, and the Church is using the convent for other purposes now. Sad to see how things change and progress. Bottom line, a huge confrontation is coming down the road at a fast pace. Between the deeply spiritual women who work without cease throughout their lifetimes to tend to the sick and the poor and the children and all those in various stages of need, and the men who insist the nuns and sisters must bow and scrape to their superior male dictates. One of my dearest classmates from Visitation (16 of us graduated, and now we are 4) has worked hard for Pro-Life for simply eons now, and I love her for her dedication to and zeal for her cause and respect her work, but even she favors the nuns over the priests. We shall see. Or not, since we are of an age to kick the bucket before we see the passing of time resolve some of these conflicts. There are so many things I will feel resentful at not knowing the outcome of. It is like having a really great book have to be put aside before you can see how things turn out!
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Interesting how everyone wants to forget or shove under the rug the Vatican Commission on Population that was excluded from Vatican II by Pope Paul VI - the commission met for over 2 years and included some 70 Bishops and Cardinals as well as 6 lay couples - may not have my numbers accurate since i think the total was 79 in attendence - all but 5 of those in the commission agreed that birth control was an important aspect for the health of the family and the community - the 5 very conservative Cardinals were from the Curia and used their political acumen to see that the outcome was reversed - you can find the books on Amazon.
Turning Point: The Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control Commission, & How Humanae Vitae Changed
http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Point-Control-Commission-Humanae/dp/0824514580/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404422729&sr=1-1&keywords=vatican+commission+on+birth+control
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Actually today being the birth of our country,,, why oh why do the SCOTUS not pay attention to how and why this country was founded. Our original founders wanted and fought for total freedom of religion..The right to believe or not believe.. They tried hard to set the constitution for this, but all these years later, I find their original intent being subverted. Like Marypage, I have never had or wanted an abortion, but I truly believe my body is just that.Yes, Viagra and other male enhancement drugs on in the prescription category and at reduced rates at Hobby Lobby among other places.. They are certainly free to do what they want. I however am also free to never enter their doors again. Abortion does not harm anyone. Many women agonize over an impossible choice . I feel for them and want them to do whatever is right. As to suicide arguments.. it truly depends on what state you live in or country. It is possible in many areas. So ... don't use that as an excuse for not having control of your body.
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I agree, Steph.
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Self Determination. It is what nations have been fighting for since the earliest villages at the dawn of history. It is what men fight for, and we, as women, are NOT their pawns.
On this 4th of July my memory scans all of the celebrations of this day since my early childhood. Burning snakes first thing in the morning. Firecrackers. Sparklers. Fountains. Parades and bands. Sitting on blankets watching fireworks. Also, my second husband died of colon cancer on this day 17 years ago. My children and I remember him. He, too, loved the fourth, though Christmas was his favorite holiday celebration. Bless his boots, he was a dedicated Feminist! We were married for 34 years. For me, the best was yet to come in the form of my third husband, a man we both knew. My first husband (prostate cancer) knew him, as well and all. Who knew? I sure didn't.
On this day in which we celebrate the self determination of our nation and of all mankind, we still must only hope that one day it will also be acknowledged as the right of womankind. My body and all of my bodily functions are my private and inviolable property. Do not touch. Do not make laws concerning. Do not regulate. My judgment rules. I am in charge. I am not a lesser slavelike being whose rights are to be determined by a committee of men.
Pass the ERA and make me an equal citizen of this republic!
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This abortion discussion could have been heard, almost word for word, in classes I attended in the 70s. Economics, religion. individual psychologies, culture, biology-all these are factors in our expectations about the role of women.
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Seems those who have a problem with women's self-determination always come back to the emotions of a healthy fetus that is to be protected above all else - as Sister Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun says, she has never met a women who had to have an abortion who did not need it.
What amazes me is the emotional protection for a fetus and yet, fully formed young children are to be sent into harms way without a similar emotional protection with crowds waving signs at the border to stop threatening the lives of children - and on that event, why are we not asking Canada for help - they have the same shame and guilt as the US about turning back the Jews on the St. Louis that half of those on that boat were killed in the concentration camps - if we do not want to live with shame than why not make a continental effort to place these children out of harms way.
Which leads me back to the viewpoint that it is all about a fetus and abortion rather than self-determination - then why oh why is the control of Birth a problem - we are not talking fetus now we are talking the possibility of a sperm entering a womb - the argument is only emotional - with no thought of a woman having rights only as a biological animal. Not as a wild or domestic animal but similar, without self-determination, denying a woman of her God given will power to choose. I guess folks are not willing to leave it to God and want to push God out of the way to take over God's job denouncing what they consider sin and making sure that even those who need an abortion are punished because God may not punish. When it comes to impregnated women they do not trust God.
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Well Barbara, I like totally agree with you. We agree with one another. But I have to put out there on the table again this question:
If God indeed takes such an interest in every tiny aspect of our lives, as opposed to just having created this universe and then sitting back, as it were, to see what develops and what we do with what we have been given, and folks are correct that God does not want any fertilized egg to be taken from a womb and discarded, then WHY does God allow millions upon millions more spontaneous abortions to occur each and every month than fertilized eggs that stick? Doctors and other scientists claim that multimillions of women conceive every month and the fertilized egg leaves the fallopian tube and travels down through the uterus without grabbing itself a place in the wall of the womb in which to grow and develop into a baby. It is thrown out. Discarded. Usually into the toilet or a kotex or whatever sanitary arrangements apply. And I ask, if God wills everything, then God wills more spontaneous abortions than our heads can image without getting completely dizzy. Just doesn't add up, just doesn't make sense, to proclaim all these personhoods existing only to be swished away into our sewer treatment facilities, ending up in our water supplies. Are we drinking a myriad of teensy souls in our every glass of water?
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Step back MaryPage and smile - I love it - we are regenerating ourselves with a glass of water - I love it - now we can be serious again...
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Well, I am a happy citizen this 4th of July night. It seems my fellow Americans in Marietta, California saw and heard the news of those buses full of children being stopped by those yelling and screaming townfolk, and they turned out in huge numbers for today's buses. Three to one FOR THE CHILDREN! This is most definitely a God Is Good moment!
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That's great news MaryPage. I hadn't seen that news story. Thanks for some GOOD news.
Jean
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I note from this mornings paper that I did not spell the name of that town correctly. It is Murrieta, California. I thought I was hearing them say Marietta.
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I am truly bothered however by the evil that sends people to the towns and tells mothers and children that the us will automatically makes them citizens. It is wrong and horrible. Their countries need to become real places and care for their citizens. The U.S. should not be caretaker for the world. I know how
Florida is suffering from the influx and the arguments of making everything available in Spanish.. If I moved to their country, would they put it all in English for me.I hardly think so. We must somehow make central and south America responsible for their citizens and making them safe.
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I think that is it there are so few places in the world that are safe - all there really is, is the US and Canada - I wondered why we have not contacted and made arrangements with Canada to help with these fleeing folks - can you just envision that journey these kids are making and moms with toddlers - sheesh Makes you appreciate the jammed packed boats that many of our ancestors trusted their lives to as they came and were dumped all over the coastline - Ellis Island on the east coast only opened in 1892 and by then there were large steam ships.
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Imagine being ten years old and walking a thousand miles to try to find freedom from hunger and fear after having a gang mark you for death and telling you and your family so.
That is what I heard our Secretary of Home Security say is the reason a lot of these children have come. That, IMHO, makes them refugees, not immigrants.
I have nightmares just imagining myself a child in that situation.
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Great article reprinted by Daily Koz - the real issue about contraception.
. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/02/1311342/-What-the-battle-over-birth-control-is-really-about#comments
When you have time go back and read the comments and remember how restricted women's worlds used to be. No tubals or hysterectomies without husband's consent. No teaching after 4 months of pregnancy, ect.
Was having dinner with a friend tonight who said that a huge insurance company that he worked for had a KNOWN policy of not hiring any women who were of an age of pregnancy into any power positions, and was true right into the 21st century!!!
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It was not just a matter of husband's consent, either! I had 3 daughters by my first husband, and then 1 son by my second. David and I decided we definitely had enough children on our hands to care for and raise and educate and cause expense. We talked it over, and were of precisely the same mind: i.e., I should have my tubes tied or have a hysterectomy. We approached my doctor, who was all for it. Turned out, though, that this type of surgery had to be approved by the Board at Suburban Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. They said NO! Their reasoning was that David only had the one child and he might later be sorry and want more. We protested vigorously that we knew our own minds on this matter, but they were adamant. We lacked the financial resources to travel further afield to find the relief from fear of further pregnancies which we sought.
Overpopulation is causing the end of life on this planet as we mammals have known it. This universe is based on precise mathematical formulas, and when these are disturbed and the workings of nature go out of whack, all hell will break loose, which is precisely what is occurring now. We have reproduced beyond all sense, and cannot sustain Peace, because men will fight for food, water and fuel when they lack these necessities. We have poisoned our air and water and the soil in which we grow things, causing disastrous climate change. We have emptied our aquifers of drinkable water, causing calamitous sinkholes. We are close to setting up armies along our borders to turn back or shoot down refugee children seeking safety.
Our governing body is full of pompous men who oppose all forms of birth control or universal healthcare. In their minds, children MUST be born, but then let them die rather than let a penny of THEIR riches go toward nurturing their lives.
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Yes, my husband and I decided in the mid 70's, our family was complete a due to my blood pressure problems, I was not a candidate for tubal ligation. so a vasectomy seemed a good solution. I actually had to sign a paper before the surgeon would do it.. amazing.
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Wow! Teacherken has given us a clear concise explanation of this conflict. It should be pointed out that men are the victims of their own biological role to provide for the survival of mankind. In the wild when a new male assumes control of female(s) he often begins by killing any young not of his siring. If a woman can be sexual, controlling her own fertilization, he can run the risk of having the care of another man's child, one who bears unknown genes, contaminating of his million-year line. Consequently reports of a boy friend killing his girl friend's child not his own are all too common. Men have a heavy burden to maintain genetic purity.
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;D ;D ;D
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And so, regardless of thousands of years of civilization with, we imagined if not hoped, we increased our philosophical reasoning that examines how we should live and have sex but rather, we should keep to the basic unthinking sex needs as if it was 8000 BC and earlier - hmmm
Or maybe we are supposed to Ok and repeat in our lives and make sure that other girls and women repeat in their lives the story of Lot and his incestuous sex relations with his daughter - or how women are only baby machines as our accepted thinking and as the bible suggests with the story of Jacob and Leah - since Leah, the unloved wife of Jacob, nevertheless bore him six sons and a daughter.
And so like a herd of, let's be kind and say deer, the males must fight as bucks so they can do their part to keep their line of heritage pure - interesting that this is attributed to the males, how about the females - is this yet another way to show the male is more noble because of course women are not mentioned as wanting purity of blood line suggesting we have sex willy nilly.
If this purity by men of their blood line is so than there would be no rape or neighbors having their way with young girls - it would justify incest though wouldn't it, with fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers - they sure do their part in keeping that heritage line pure. And of course the day after pill is not for these girls according to some and according to Hobby Lobby - of the two forms of contraception they object to, one is a day after pill that they fear may cause an abortion.
Of course many still decide it is the girls fault - that concept of girls not wanting purity of heritage I suppose - I remember at age 16 being thrilled because an older guy going in the fall to collage asked me out to a movie - before the movie was even over he was all over me - there is amazing strength that is beyond their normal strength and thank god it was a neighborhood theater where they knew me - the usher was the older brother of a friend who pulled him off me and then got a couple of guys that were his buddies to walk me home without saying a word but making it into a jolly walk. I was overwhelmed, shocked, humiliated, wondered if I should ever again let a boy even kiss me - too ashamed to even tell my mother and where my friend must have heard from her older brother she looked at me the next day but never said a word and neither did I. And so that is how easily date rape happens.
As to those girls who are drunk - do they really deserve having a child that they are attached to for the rest of their lives just because they had too much to drink and therefore were an easy target - the guys are not even made to finance this child similar in responsibility to a school loan that has more requirements and years of hardship to pay back - but the girl is blamed and receives a life time punishment just for drinking too much - even if adopted we read and see on TV the mothers and children searching for each other for years after - it never goes away all because a pill that would have prevented the sperm from doing its job is not given away.
Well I know I am talking to the choir - and I have to get out of this because it only reminds me of having no power and that is hitting my buttons - being angry at what happens just because we are girls does not seem to enter the consciousness of too many.
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I was a child victim. I am not a victim as an adult. Nor do I blame all society, all white Christian men, all religions/mores/norms/taboos for restricting me in any way. Nor will I allow the cancer of hatred to dictate and destroy my life.
I am a free agent - and God is Sovereign, if He is God. A spontaneous abortion, when I have done all I can to prevent it, is a result of a world opposed to God; man no longer bears His perfect image, yet is still the crown of creation. If I kill the child God has Sovereignly ordained that I will be pregnant with, I usurp Him; it is me waving my fist in the face of God; committing an act of murder which I am commanded shall not be done; believing I know more than He does about my future, what population the world can hold - saying that my limited understanding of the world, mankind, my own life, the life of that child - is greater than His. To trust God is to believe that His plan is better than mine, isn't it? Even if it isn't something I would have 'chosen' for myself. Actions have consequences and those consequences are not always physical or even immediately apparent.
My first experience with the idea of abortion was as a teen. A girl in the class behind me became pregnant after being raped by her father who was drunk. Abortions were still quietly done in those days - quietly between a doctor and patient. At first, as you can imagine, she was scorned. But many peers surrounded her, included her in all their functions, including church youth group etc., supported her through labor and delivery and beyond. I was ill and not in school for a year and a half but heard that she placed the baby for adoption - believing that though an evil had been done to her, she did not do evil to an innocent child; her integrity and self-respect were intact; the evil was clearly her father's.
I received a Master's degree in Community Mental Health Nursing and I have counseled women in every aspect of the issue. I don't understand how another woman could believe that ending a pregnancy - allowing someone to enter your womb and remove a healthy growing person, is done without any residual difficulties. Most of the women I met with - personally and professionally - were having real emotional problems sometimes decades later. Many life events would trigger grief, depression, even suicidal ideation - and not because anyone was doing them any harm, even when people were supportive. Guilt is internal. Individuals change over time, and they often regret 'choices' they made at a time they were particularly vulnerable, feeling fear/panic, not able to see far enough ahead to how carrying a child to term might actually work out. And this choice is final. No matter whether the woman finds a wonderful husband and has other children, she will never have THAT child. A future marriage, the birth of their first live child, the date of the abortion, the due-date of the aborted child and so many other life events, even those that should be a source of joy, are instead often heavily tinged with grief and regret.
There are women who get an abortion because they are given an ultimatum by their husband/significant other; those relationships are often destroyed, even when the woman holds herself fully responsible for her 'choice'. Children of those women may learn about the abortion and, even though they love their mother, there can be real pain - even rage - at being deprived of a sibling they never met. A society, civilization, is weighed in how it treats its most vulnerable. You can call this pregnancy a fetus, a bit of protoplasm, an embryo, it really doesn't matter WHAT you call it - everyone knows that this is a living human being; even the mother knows this. Men come to think that offering to pay for the abortion is the extent of their responsibility and society has given them that out. Society becomes ever more crude and cruel, with less concern about anyone's else's life - only about limited resources, and everyone wants to be sure to get theirs. There is much less emphasis on duty and self-sacrifice; life is cheapened.
And who do these women talk to? If they try to talk about their feelings, they're usually met with people telling them that it was far in the past, they should get over it and go on with their lives, and, when these supportive remarks don't provide any relief, they resort to telling them that, after all, it was their choice - they didn't have to do it. These women know that, too.
In MOST cases. a pregnancy can be avoided (rape, incest, the life of the mother are rare reasons for the 40 million abortions performed since it was believed to be legal). Preventing a pregnancy is exercising self-determination; an abortion is determining someone else's life. And, in mental health terms, it is much easier to forgive another the harm done to you, than to forgive yourself the harm you've done to another.
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I cannot reconcile your words; especially that you are a free agent and at one and the same time believe that God ordains your pregnancy and you must not change that and that same God ordained my miscarriages and stillbirth? I could not possibly worship such a God. Where were you ever taught that God wills everything that happens to you and punishes you and the whole world for the sins of others? Seems to me that puts you and your entire philosophy between a rock and a hard place. Not the Christianity I grew up with, that's for sure! If I believed that God chose me to have all of that heartbreak, I would probably kill myself because I would be unable to continue to live with the thought of such a dreadful, hateful God.
But My God is the God of Love, Compassion, and Forgiveness.
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I do not believe that happen-chance rules and we act as if we run our lives on happen-chance and therefore we should not use our God Given skills that offer greater assistance to protect a women from unwanted sperm - to me the great sin is blocking what God has given to us, a medical breakthrough, just like all the medical break throughs that have increased the value of life for everyone especially, those who in the past would have been inflicted with a disability - break throughs that came as a result of those who devote their knowledge and skills to accumulating more understanding of how the systems in the body function -
I also think there are many who use older coping mechanisms instead of empowering women so that girls/women do not believe they are responsible for what has happened to them - rather than take into account the guilt that is typical with all loss and all trauma the guilt is given a life that is nursed with other sets of choices denied.
A girl/woman always had a choice, even before advanced medical assistance's she had risky unsafe choices including the choice to birth a child and leave it for others to raise however, that choice is for a women/girl to make - denying her that choice or denying her the medical break through that keeps a sperm from acting on an egg is denying the medical intelligence that, if God is everything and everywhere, the power of God would allow this medical intelligence rather than thinking some unholy intrusion acted on increasing knowledge. That kind of thinking would suggest that there is something wrong with the knowledge and skills that increase with each century as part of our history. Most Christians believe every thing on this earth and every happening is either a piece of god or sent by god - everything, person, happening can have two sides - fire can burn to heat and cook or burn to ash barns and people - atomic energy can be turned into a bomb or into power to light up a city etc. etc.
For as many women as you have helped keep their unwanted child there are many women who have made successful lives with the opportunities available to them after stopping the pregnancy and therefore they shared in the same opportunities as non-impregnated girls and women who never had to make the choice, to take on or not, the care of the results from someone's power over them.
I know we will never agree on what is best - my only concern is that a girl/women have the choice -
There is a greater sin when we manipulate by taking advantage of a girl by denying her fair and equal information as well as, denying her medical assistance to stop the sperm - no choice is control which is no different than being raped - and yes, like you, I have had too many to count advantages taken when I was a child - I was lucky and did not conceive - others in my family did and they had abortions allowing them to lead successful lives - years later they made children in love - they completed their advanced education and shared with a husband their love that created a child rather than someone using their power to get what they wanted with no regard much less love for their host or the child conceived - after the medical break throughs anyone who denies women this medical assistance is teaching girls/women to be co-dependent to the perpetrator's silence and to accept their own shame allowing them to buy into guilt that should not be theirs.
Again, yes, I do go on here spouting my viewpoint - it is just that I cannot accept yours - I have too much evidence that there are other ways - I have attended too many survivors meetings to believe that there is only the one choice that your experience makes you believe it the only healthy choice -
Bottom line I am saying that every women should have a choice - every girls/woman should be informed fairly, evenly and calmly about the pluses and minuses of her choice from both viewpoints - as to suggesting that by having the child this will stop PTSD, unfortunately, birth or not, PTSD continues as a given for the rest of her life - You learn that in survivors meetings from those who had the child - to deny girls/woman their choice is to me the crime seconded by anyone who attempts to stop her from acting on her choice.
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Choice is the word.. That is for me. I want all women to have the simply luxury of choice. Men have that. If every single women who got pregnant could have a simply test to prove just what man did this,, do you think they would step in and help..dream on.
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I am certain the entire thinking world noticed that ALL of the women on the court voted one way and ALL of the men the other.
So it is still, in this so called modern day and century, that Paternalism in the form of men making all of the laws regarding the most personal issues of a woman's bodily functions, continues to be the case. Hey Gals! We need at least FIVE women on the Supreme Court! At all times!
I just feel so tired and worn out with it all! I had not only hoped, but expected that the ERA would pass, and women would make and observe their own laws about their reproductive years. But not so.
Just to share, and not to preach or attempt to persuade in any way, my God created this and many other universes, and observes and waits to see how Her creations will adapt to and nurture what has been given. I am certain, as are all of the astrophysicists today, that there are literally billions of other planets with intelligent life forms. I imagine us as a humongous classroom of beings, with the Principal wondering who among us will succeed and wind up meeting others out there in the space between the stars, and who will fail miserably and become extinct. And I think the species we call homo sapiens on this planet we call Earth are well along on the path to extinction. We do not do this deliberately, but by clinging to our ignorant myths.
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The number of abortions from rape, incest, life of mother arguments are FEW. A large majority of people believe these are exceptions that must be taken into consideration. All of the surveys I've seen (except 2014 CNN and Pew polls, which show a shift in thinking to a pro-life position with exceptions) show the country split in half. And it is not men vs. women (men have their own reasons for wanting abortion easily available).
Nowhere in my post did I ever suggest that all contraceptives should be banned (even Hobby Lobby offers 16 out of 20). But a woman's choice should stop at the woman's choice to not get pregnant; one persons 'rights' stop where another's begin. We all have the right to life...
Just as in the slavery issue: the country was divided, those who benefitted from keeping slaves touted their 'right' to own them (it was legal), told how slaves were not really fully human, how slaves needed to be cared for because they were incapable of caring for themselves, how they were actually better off with a master to look out for them....
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(Thought for the day, taken from Wordsmith - A Word A Day)
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so. -Robert A. Heinlein, science-fiction author (1907-1988)
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Not sure how slavery enters this discussion about women having choice - and if women could have controlled when they were impregnated this would not be an issue however, it has been a problem for women with various solutions since the time of the Egyptians before the Greek civilization that was so patriorichal - That to me is the most fantastical thing I have ever heard that women could control men so they did not get pregnant -
As to the reasons for women requiring an abortion, there are many and being used as a means of birth control is another fantasy - but OK I can see where you are coming from and just as I will not be moved neither will you - You will also find facts to support your beliefs - but regardless our beliefs how a woman should choose could we agree that at least she should be allowed the choice -
The idea that businesses can control this choice is obscene as well as allowing any group the power of making the choice over doctors for an appropriate choice based on religion is taking us to a religious based rule of law - By tradition we may have more citizens who practice their religion however, our rule of law was not religious based. These supreme judges were acting out of their religious belief that we as a nation were so petrified that if a catholic became president the pope would run the country - well now we have a Supreme Court as puppets to the Pope. And, we have very good evidence that the Pope over rode the very commission's findings dealing with population grown and family in his and the Curia's game of politics.
I applaud your work and your belief - I am not being sarcastic - it comes from your heart - however, the issue of denying choice is a benchmark to the values held about women and women's choice - legally denying any good effective medicine from women is not as much about the meds denied as it is about how women can be toyed with which is the same control many women experience by men towards their bodies.
I also think the numbers you quote are very slanted - but they do support your belief which is important however, it does sound like the ownership that between 20 to 40% of all women are sexually abused and your statement that a girl/women can control when she gets pregnant suggests to me you would prefer it if the world was a different place - that is not reality hon and it is so sad to hear that there are good people like yourself who are putting into your beliefs, behavior that is so unreal it is frightening - it suggests that you look at women as having caused their unwanted pregnancy - oh oh oh and ouch - as if women attract this exploitation of their bodies.
That is another whole discourse on how girls are not informed nor trained to protect themselves except, some Moms, at least give them the pill but without the lessons of how easily girls/women are manipulated because no one likes to admit this problem - we see our own sons and brothers and believe they are respectful of women therefore... we forget the most respectful appearing guys are often the perpetrators of sexual abuse - it is done is secret and that clandestine approach is part of their sickness. Again that is another chapter - all I am saying is that anytime choice is chipped away it is not the number of pills or procedures it is the exemplification that women and their choice must be controlled. And remember the blockbuster that even Edith Bunker was raped - it happens, a lot and if she a grown women could not stop her rape how can anyone suggest this is in the hands of women to stop. It is like giving a family member the responsibility to stop the drunk from drinking and that is not even an issue involving unequal physical force.
Really to round out your experience I strongly suggest you volunteer at the local Battered Women's Center and that will begin to help you cope with this reality that yes, if there was no disrespect of women, if every city in American did not have a Battered Women's Center that shows the prevalence of this uneven ability for women to protect their own bodies and therefore, if the only sex was by agreement none of this would be an issue for women and then we would be having a very different moral discourse.
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I too believe there are many millions of universes with all sorts and types of beings struggling with their own form of civilization.. Ours seems to be determined to eventually blow themselves up.The idea that Iran is working on the bomb. They still believe in tribal rivalries and the chances of them trying out the bomb are scary at best. and North Korea with some sort of lunatic in charge.. I think we made a mistake in continuing with atomic energy
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Viagra is covered. Vasectomies are covered. Vacuum pumps for erectile dysfunction? Totally, 100% covered.
But birth control? Sorry, Ladies. Five MEN on the Supreme Court say you're out of luck.
If they thought they were going to get away with this without a fight, they have another think coming.
Senator Patty Murray and 38 other senators just introduced legislation to override the Supreme Court’s outrageous and chauvinistic Hobby Lobby decision.
The reason we can win is because the Supreme Court didn’t strike down the contraception mandate as unconstitutional. Their argument is that it violated a different law passed by Congress, which means Congress itself can overrule the decision with a simple majority vote.
Oh, and yes, Hobby Lobby Still Covers Vasectomies And Viagra, The Huffington Post, June 30, 2014
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Oh, and yes, Hobby Lobby Still Covers Vasectomies And Viagra, The Huffington Post, June 30, 2014
Ok... they do: I'm assuming that IT'S MANDATED, right? Everyone has to because Dems thought this important enough to put in the health care law? And since neither of these involves destroying innocent human life, it's completely consistent with their religious objections to abortion. They do offer 16 of 20 contraceptives! They have the right to freedom of expression of their religious values.
Again! No woman HAS to work for Hobby Lobby.
Hobby Lobby offers 16 of 20 contraceptives
AND, any woman who works there will still get the other four contraceptives - free.
What is really the issue then? The first amendment rights to freedom of religion allowing for freedom of expression of religious beliefs in one's daily life? including one's own privately-owned business? Instead of encouraging the destruction/ignoring of the first amendment by encouraging congresspeople to write legislation denying the right to religious expression, why not just encourage women to get those 4 methods of contraception - FREE - from another source?
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People have a right to practice their religious beliefs, but they do not have a right to force the practice of those beliefs upon other people. I feel as though I personally am being force fed these people's beliefs totally against my will, when my Constitution is supposed to guarantee I will not have to run into and be traumatized by the religious beliefs held by others. Hobby Lobby is supposed to be a business run for a profit, and they will never get a penny from my pocket. Never! They can refuse to allow their raped daughters abortions, but they cannot refuse abortions to me and mine! It is TOTALLY unfair! Their argument that they are personally offended and traumatized by MY having an abortion is a case of their not minding their own business, and they are interferring in my privacy.
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That Hobby Lobby pays for some methods of controlling conception and not others is the least important element in this controversy. We are at the onset of a mass of unintended consequences. This decision will be the foundation for some very nasty results in ways we can only barely glimpse.
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That is so funny that anyone would think that what is in the health care law was ALL created by the Dems - I cannot stop howling laughing - please look at what happened - in fact most Dems wanted a single payer - it was accommodating Pharms and Insurance Companies that got the mess we have that is at least better than what we did not have and protects the many who were denied coverage because of their serious illnesses - but what is included in NOT from Dems - the bill was created in committee with strong insurance company lobbyist contributions that those congressmen who are supported by the insurance business insisted had to be contributors in creating the bill.
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The issue, I think, with the Hobby Lobby decision is that it opens the door to more. They may only object to 4 methods of birth control, but the next company may object to all methods. Or, as was mentioned, blood transfusions, or other medical procedures that an owner of a company believes to be against his/her religion.
I'd rather these companies simply decide not to offer insurance benefits at all - they don't have to. That would be one more step toward the more logical single payer that our country should adopt.
As for encouraging employees to find other sources to get those 4 methods free? Where? I had not heard that.
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Especially not what with the anti-freedom of choice people, when they are not busy murdering clinic obstetrician-gynaecologists, are closing down clinics all over this country and snatching health care and birth control away from millions of women.
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Thank heaven, someone spoke up.Democrats did not, repeat did not pass this by themselves and I read that over 30 companies are filing for exemptions.. all claiming religious faith and excluding in their hiring practices... gay, lesbian, and heavens knows what else. Our country was not build on exclusions. and it was built on freedom of faith, but not on exclusions.
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It takes such a busybody type of mentality to join forces with people of like mentality and choose to mind other citizens PRIVATE lives! It just flat out astonishes me!
If your neighbors are two men who love one another living together, or two women who love one another living together, chances are they will be among the best neighbors anyone could possibly have! They will love you and take a bullet for you if you are accepting of their existence. That's all they want, Acceptance! As human beings who are just like you, they just make different choices according to their passions. We are all born with different passions and different proclivities.
This country was built on the thesis that everyman's home is his castle, and even the State cannot enter without a warrant from a Judge. But this busybody mentality wants the Church to RULE in MY BEDROOM! I just cannot get over it! I left the Republican party in 1980, when they let the busybodies put an anti-abortion plank in the platform. I was very active in that party, and I protested at the top of my lungs. "Oh, don't worry," they said. "It is just to get the fundamentalists to vote with us, and no one ever reads the platform, anyway!" That's what they told me, presumably to give me comfort? I was spitting mad, and I quit the party and have never looked back. I gave them my blood, sweat and tears for 30 years, and they were putting my womanhood and my privacy up for sale!
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The supreme court and the old men on it are frightening. They are using their own personal emotions instead of carefully thinking of what the original people had in mind. I find it so hard to believe that they are doing this.. I have never trusted Thomas ( I believed her and still do on him)and at least two of the others have no concern for ordinary citizens.. It is so sad.. We need one of them to go away and get another more liberal (preferably female) member.
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I have been reading THE ASSAULT ON REASON by Al Gore, and it is so beautifully written and connects the dots regarding what is going on in this country. Scary stuff. It makes it clear to me that the camaraderie of a brain washed group of men fills them with an energy to soar up over practical solutions to the everyday requirements of keeping a nation of people safe, fed, housed, and educated and into the mythological realms of make believe and hubris beyond all understanding.
In the minds of these men, "God" will not permit human beings to cause their own extinction, and all of the fairy tales predicting a "Second Coming" are as real as this day. So sad. From the beginning of time, mankind has refused to consider the obvious and practical solutions and preferred the easy and exhilarating instead: such as sacrificing human beings to appease the God who sends these bad things to punish us. These days, our society of the 1% simply sacrifices the 99% in every possible sphere. We have war, poverty, homelessness, violence, crumbling infrastructure, poisoned water, air and soil; but that's OK, if we so unimportant masses would just pull ourselves up by our boot straps and Have Faith, we could be like them!
That is the thought that makes me shudder. I do not WANT to be like them!
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That's the power trip - when anyone or group wants you to be like them rather than to uncover who we are as individuals that are willing to come together in groups - it is as if this group believes that success is power over others and things and money is the key to that door - that is not a formula for Democracy -
Democracy may give you individual freedom but it is not a system for one group to have power over another - now the Supreme Court has recently built that in to the system of Democracy when a collective for profit organization can be identified as an individual - one thing to even have individual rights but there is not similar punishment or restrictions in response to decisions called laws that define social responses to each other -
In other words jail time must be illegal for individuals if jail time is impossible for corporations that do not follow the law. It is all well and good to say different punishment for different crime but if your product kills how is that different than an individual who killed and on down the line of laws.
We are now living in Alice's Wonderland - all the characters in that story are caricatures of those surrounding us and those in the news today.
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Oh, Barbara! Bless you! I have so often had that same response to our chaos of today: we are living Lewis Carroll's Alice In Wonderland.
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I'm sure you've seen me say "the (space) aliens have tainted the water", or maybe it's the neocons, ;D or somebody/thing we know nothing about. People are saying and doing such irrational things that i'm totally befuddled.
A dear friend through high school and college and i always had a good time debating issues because his family were Repubs and we were one of a minority of Dems in our town. I've almost decided to stop corresponding with him, he's become such an ideologue and no longer has any sense of humor about our differences. He's totally for big business having no regulations and not being restricted in any way that, as he puts it "stifles innovation and progress." We are so far apart on the Holly Lobby issue, i can't believe it and i remember conversations with him when he would have been on the individual's rights side of the issue. He went to work for a major drug corporation after college and certainly drank their "water." ........of course, i also have a suspicion that he is sometimes into his cups when he writes late at night.
But it saddens me. That we can't have fun disagreements anymore.
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Not sure how slavery enters this discussion about women having choice - and if women could have controlled when they were impregnated this would not be an issue
I used slavery as a comparison because it was legal, individual's and the state benefitted from it - but many believed it was immoral even tho it was legal. Abortion has become big business.
I am just trying to point out another side to the issue. BUT PLEASE keep in mind what I'm saying:
1. although the country is nearly evenly divided pro-choice, pro-life:
a. the majority of those identifying themselves as pro-life DO agree with the exceptions of rape, incest, and life of the woman;
b. AND the majority of those identifying themselves as pro-choice DO believe that there should be restrictions (one being bantered about is the 20 week cut-off for an abortion)
Very few agree with 'abortion on demand' AND very few agree with 'abortion always being illegal'
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/06/cnn-poll-wide-divide-over-abortion/
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/abortion/48_are_pro_choice_44_pro_life
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Thank heaven, someone spoke up.Democrats did not, repeat did not pass this by themselves
I really don't quite know how to respond to this? So I thought I'd post a reminder of the process of the Affordable Health Care Act:
http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=003712
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
A bi-partisan group met with insurance providers in the beginning; the president met with those companies also. But Republicans were left out of the process from that point on and, except for an original draft which Senator Snow voted yes to, not one single Republican voted for the House version, the Senate version or the Reconciliation. They were in favor of more choice through an idea like the Health Savings Accounts.
Republicans were not consulted about anything in the law and, in fact, Nancy Pelosi (majority leader of the House at that time) refused to even give them a final copy of the law saying that they didn't need a copy because she didn't need any of their votes to pass it.
At one point Republican representatives were actually physically locked out of the chambers. They stated their ideas publically in a hallway - seen on CNN. This whole process - passing the bill on Christmas Eve, with only Democratic (and two Independents) votes is what gave rise to the grassroots group called the Tea Party and why the Democratics lost the House in 2010.
So, honestly, I just don't know how anyone could possibly think that Republicans share ANY of the consequences of a Democratic Law - passed entirely by a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate (most of that period it was even a filibuster-proof Senate, until Scott was elected to take Ted Kennedy's seat when he passed away) and signed into law by a Democratic President.
The House nearly did not have the votes because a group of Democratics feared that the language of the bill did not provide protection against government funds used for abortions. The President promised them (and kept his word) that he would issue an executive order after the reconciliation vote that would keep the Hyde Amendment (I think it's called) that states that no government funds would be used for abortions.
Many Democratics wanted single-payer from the beginning - that's right; but they didn't even have the votes in their own party to do that.
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OK ... am opting out. I dislike pure political discussions... Look back.. once upon a time Republicans thought quite differently. I owned retail stores and I know the side of American life that cannot even afford one day of doctors or dentists. We needed some sort of health plan.. and got it. not perfect,, but at least a start.
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Wow this was a woman's discussion - we saw it as pro women not pro religious clap trap where average folks think they have more experience and knowledge than a Doctor believing they are as able as a Doctor who has a minimum of seven years of higher education - shoot I too am opting out.
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When I was growing up in the London suburbs in the 1970s, there were still some shops that had everything behind the counter - but this was not always a good thing, as the mortification of having to go into the chemist and ask for sanitary towels was almost unbearable for a teenager. When supermarkets started to sell them and Boots became self-service, I was very happy - but my mother was scandalised - 'How can anyone put THAT on the same conveyor belt as their groceries?' - it was still very much something that was never mentioned, whereas now my daughters can buy what they need anywhere and everywhere.
My mother had a similar view of tights (panty hose) - 'they'l never catch on' - well of course they did, but these days I absolutely loathe them myself, and either wear trousers or have bare legs (despite their appearance...) and in the winter I sometimes wear the 60 denier thick black ones with shorter skirts. The thin nylon ones are just horrible, I don't know how I wore them to work all those years.
And talking about things kept behind the counter, I now see that many local convenience stores - which are fundamentally self-service - have taken to keeping not only spirits & cigarettes, but also coffee behind the desk, as presumably these are the things that are most often shoplifted.
Rosemary
Well it is the situation for the most of the girls..All you can do is to think less about negative elements of the society and live free life..
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Whoooaa!
I have spent my whole adult life working with people - all ethnicities, both sexes, all religious/political persuasions. I have also worked in the health care system - doctors are not infallible, women. And they do have their own biases -both male and female doctors.
I don't understand why people feel 'scandalized' and 'offended' by encountering a different viewpoint; over the past thirty years conservative women who choose more traditional roles/viewpoints have often complained that liberals don't want to hear it. They feel that they can talk to liberals as long as they agree with them; otherwise they're expected to shut up, nod politely, or risk scandalizing/offending them. I was hoping for an opportunity to be their 'voice' - help bridge the communication gap that apparently exists between the two groups of women. I apologize for my ineptness here. No offense was intended, I assure you.
You sound like a fine group of women. And I would never fault anyone for holding their personal views very dear - we all do.
(Just a thought: Nixon put a freeze on wages so, in order to attract good employees (since they couldn't offer higher wages) businesses expanded benefits; health insurance was offered. These were always seen as benefits, not entitlements. Hobby Lobby is well respected for their Christian values and generosity which are apparent throughout their company. Part time employees begin at $9/hr, full-time at $15/hr and all share in the profits of the company as this is not a public share-holding corporation, but rather a family.)
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Mary Page: We are not like 'them'. Altruism is big in my vocabulary; yours, too, I bet. When a minority group/individual is castigated, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. And organized religion has not been in my ethos since I was 14.
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I don't dislike political discussions, but this one takes me back to the 1960's and 70's, and the struggles to be more independent as a woman. Whether it was being told I could only be a teacher or a nurse if I went to college, or the fact that I couldn't get a car loan although I was working full time but my unemployed student husband could get a loan, or not having access to effective birth control at first, or having to go out and buy my male boss's cigarettes for him to smoke while he dictated to me, etc....I expected better and in my own quiet way worked for it.
I am discouraged by the strong partisanship and ugliness of the last few years, which definitely started before the Affordable Care Act, (which was passed in no more of a "underhanded" manner than whenPresident Bush got the Medicare Modernization Act passed that brought us Medicare Part D) . In my mind, there is a movement to take this country backwards, including the status of women.
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A great new invention may be coming in from India. We all share the inventor's desire to see women walk safe anywhere!
https://www.vocativ.com/world/india/rape-repellent-bra-will-shock-youliterally/
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I have a young conservative friend, who I had to end up blocking on facebook.She got so deep into hate that it was frightening and yet , I know at heart she is a kind gentle woman. I simply don't understand the hate.
Pantyhose.. whew, I did hate those things and thank heaven , in Florida, I don't have to see or wear them any more.. Hooray
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I don't understand the hate either, Steph. I rail at the lack of plain, ordinary reasoning. Time after time after time, both in the Congress and in various states, committees have subpoenad panels of ALL MEN to testify before them regarding the whole gamut of women's bodily health concerns: rape, abortion, birth control, and so on and on. No women. Not one single solitary woman. Even with newspaper and TV photographers taking full shots of entire panels, there seems to be no shame on the part of these male politicians. On the contrary, to them it seems just as the universe should be working, for why in the world would women be reliable witnesses as to their own needs? These, and many other things, absolutely blow my mind because they seem so totally illogical.
And yes many, if not most, of these people would be folks we would like in their personal lives. Good people. Men who love their mothers and wives and daughters, but will turn a deaf ear to them if they have any protests re these matters. These men have been reared to believe that their dear sweet mothers and lovely wives and precious daughters are not capable of attaining viewpoints regarding matters of state. Period.
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Women have been, are, and will be as poorly regarded as each wave of immigrants has been. Not quite fully equal to a white man, maybe 60%. The Irish, the Italians, the Germans, the Vietnamese, Chinese and Japanese, each of these was less capable or intelligent than the founding fathers. Anyone who was worth much as a man would own property, think landed gentry back in England. Remember, too, that women could not own property, it passed from her father to her husband. Think sharia. No amount of reason, logic, or just plain data can overcome that handicap. Did you read The Stepford Wives?
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Here's a new one from a North Carolina congresswoman, who seems to think that men talk way above women, and that they should bring things down to a woman's level.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/ellmers-urges-men-bring-policy-down-womans-level
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I believe this nation is a melting pot, and the more the blending, the more it is so. It does not disturb me that we will have a majority of non-white; not one speck. A human being is a human being is a human being.
That being said, and truly meant right from my heart AND my reasoning centers, I have always marveled at the fact that our constitution FIRST found black slaves, male & female alike, to be less than a person when counting heads to name the number of the population. Less than a full person. Get that. They were counted as three-fifths of a person! Read it and see for yourselves!
THEN, when the slaves were freed, all black men could vote. They suddenly became fully people, as was only right, but white women, who just hours before and from the beginning of our nation had been considered SUPERIOR to blacks, including black men, were suddenly LESS THAN black men in the matter of voting but more than black men in the matter of courtesy and personal prejudice. In short, a black man better not even GLANCE at a white woman, or he could be and frequently WOULD be lynched. But he could vote. Oh, he was hugely discouraged by all manner of threats against his life, his well-being, his employment, and his family, from daring register to vote. But the irony is that our constitution now permitted him full citizenship including the right to vote, and it was still denied to white women. To all women, of course, black and white, but you get, by now, the point I am trying to make.
Men do not seem to have a speck of trouble adjusting facts to fit their peculiar logic, rather than actually BE logical and closely examine the facts!
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When I was growing up in the London suburbs in the 1970s, there were still some shops that had everything behind the counter - but this was not always a good thing, as the mortification of having to go into the chemist and ask for sanitary towels was almost unbearable for a teenager. When supermarkets started to sell them and Boots became self-service, I was very happy - but my mother was scandalised - 'How can anyone put THAT on the same conveyor belt as their groceries?' - it was still very much something that was never mentioned, whereas now my daughters can buy what they need anywhere and everywhere.
My mother had a similar view of tights (panty hose) - 'they'l never catch on' - well of course they did, but these days I absolutely loathe them myself, and either wear trousers or have bare legs (despite their appearance...) and in the winter I sometimes wear the 60 denier thick black ones with shorter skirts. The thin nylon ones are just horrible, I don't know how I wore them to work all those years.
And talking about things kept behind the counter, I now see that many local convenience stores - which are fundamentally self-service - have taken to keeping not only spirits & ecigs (http://www.ecigfiend.com/), but also coffee behind the desk, as presumably these are the things that are most often shoplifted.
Rosemary
Well it is the situation for the most of the girls..All you can do is to think less about negative elements of the society and live free life..
Different persons have different opinions..
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Maryz....It's hard to believe a female politician would say such things in this day and age.
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I do not see it that way, Dear Jane. I mean, I know where you are coming from, but I have heard and seen too much in my time. It does not seem to matter their education or standard of living or personal status; certain women will have a worship of men gene in their makeup, and no amount of reasonable argument will make them believe men are not to adore. From desperate poor to society matron, they will go all twittery at a man just glancing their way, let alone flattering them.
Please believe me when I say I am not a man hater. I flat out adored my late husband, and love my three sons and my horde of great grandsons, not to mention many others. I have felt deep admiration for many statesmen: a few now, but alas, most of them long departed as well.
No, my point is men as a controlling group contain a majority that honestly feel they were made superior in every way and must act upon that belief. Happily my husband and my sons have been in agreement with me on this point. And yes, there are women who will cheer for the superiority of men and denigrate their own brains. But thank god there are also women, from desperate poor to society matron, who will fight for their right to be counted as equal. Or better.
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OMG Maryz - thanks for posting that, we have to know that those folks are out there so we can be alert to guarding against them. ??? But that's incredible........"a leftist reporter......." huh? Why do these folks try to slide out of having said something when EVERTHING is on tape these days........well, i guess if they were smart they wouldn't be saying such dumb things.
Jean
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Thank you for the post, MaryZ. I look forward to the follow-up report and the audio clip.
I am weary of the 'talking points', manipulation, 'spin' and marketing tools so often being used. Even if I don't agree with someone's reasoning, or have reached a different conclusion, I appreciate their respectful discussion of their points on an issue.
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I think that when we did not have 24 hour news cycles, life was a bit calmer..
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I agree with that. The world has changed dramatically.
There was an interesting article in the Sunday NY Times a coup0le of weeks ago on yellow journalism, and how it and anchors of various TV shows encite emotions and anger in the reader/viewer in which the true facts are obscured but the ranting and outrage runs high. This is our new society.
This morning I was flipping thru the channels fixing lunch when I happened on an A&E show called Flipping Las Vegas or something like that. I thought I'd watch a minute. The main character, Scott, during an argument over kitchen counters grabbed the throat of the woman he was angry at (for real he actually laid hands on her) who he thought had made a mistake in ordering (she hadn't) and jokingly? went on about he might choke her if that were the case. He had quite a grip on that throat as it was. The woman was visibly upset (I hope she's not married to him) and when the incident was straightened out, she was near tears but he not only did not apologize he went right on about his budget woes.
In attempting to express disgust to A&E I went to their home website. No forum was on their menu, but after clicking a contact icon, one of those duck people suddenly filled the screen saying, "It's not here. Use the MENU, Jack."
Jack found the feedback on another link from google and let them have it. Lovely thing for children to see Saturday mornings at 11:30. I cannot STAND to see people victimized, either in words or physically.
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Ginny: Please post that link so I can comment too. Scott is an evil man who verbally abuses everyone who works for his company.
I have a grudge against I don't know who. I like games to keep my brain sharp. Hidden Objects are my passion now. There is a short 'story' to set he scene then various 'rooms' are pictured with 10 or so items hidden in plain view. A feather is quite common and a coffee cup, tea kettle, bird, snail, nail, etc. I began to notice how often a cigarette and/or a lighter, or a pack of cigs was showing up. This is outrageous, Most of the players are children and this is blatantly suggestive. ( I can't find a example but when I do I'll post it.)
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
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By the way, welcome, Rey Hardin!! It's very nice to see you here!
Scott is an evil man who verbally abuses everyone who works for his company.
You've seen this show before!! He does that all the time? How does he get away with it? I noticed in this episode that the sub contractor refused to cut thru cement and had to talk him into getting an x ray of the cement about the hidden stabilizing bars (which WERE there) and had it not been for the man refusing to cut it he'd have gone ahead and someone might have been hurt.
The only feedback I can find is not for their programming at all, but instead for their "online support," which of course has nothing to do with the content of their programming, and I don't see anything remotely like forums on their online. Not sure what requires "support." Hopefully somebody forwarded it? I may have wasted my time. Not much help but I can't find anything else, here's the page: http://www.aetv.com/support
In Edit: I just found another one for feedback and this one allows an email: aefeedback@aenetworks.com
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Time after time after time, I find myself going back to the old (and I personally believe true) case for birth control and against over population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun
Do you remember studying about that when we were, well, when I was young?
I believe over population brings about a lack of a sense of community, a fear of depersonalization, and a lack of civility.
The outright lies politicians, talking heads, propagandists, business owners, lawyers and others are telling these days frighten me to death. I keep having this sort of over all sense of wonderment that they are not struck dead by lightning! No! No! No! That is not a serious expectation on my part, but a leftover footprint from my childhood.
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I saw a comic strip type cartoon a few months back, and I cut it out of the newspaper and had my son in law laminate it for me. I cannot reproduce it for you here, but can give you the words for each panel so you can follow in your mind's eye. Two men are speaking:
It's a proven fact now!
I don't believe in your facts!
Facts are facts! Not a belief.
That's your opinion!
It's not an opinion. It's a fact.
From your side!
There are no sides! Just facts!
But I don't think so!
Just because You don't think it's a fact doesn't mean it isn't!
Well, I have my suspicions!
ARGH!! It's useless arguing with You!!
Now, THAT'S a Fact!
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I like hidden objects too, but the ones on my IPAD do not play fair.. Dark dark scenes and then the object is partially hidden. darn.. Must find another source since I love them on the IPAD.. I have been the Flipping Vegas show. The man is a lunatic and his wife is not any better, since she always without exception goes over his budget. I think the point is to provoke the rages.. I do not understand the whole idea.
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He's absolutely repulsive... But that went over the line. That was assault.
That's cute, Mary Page. I always find it interesting how people argue or debate a position. Shows so much about themselves.
The ones it always interests me to see, quite amusing, really, are the ones that don't actually debate your counter ideas at all. In an attempt to turn away your argument they focus on the person (you) making the argument, and what psychological traits or motivations you might have that caused you to have that view. It's a well known diversionary tactic called the "ad hominem " trick. Anything to avoid speaking to your ideas.
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Oh, Ginny, I do so agree!
I see that over and over and over again, and it puts me into a fit of apoplexy, and I find myself hollering at my TV set: Answer the question! Answer the damn QUESTION!
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:D :D :D
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Have not seen this guy Scott and it sounds like I have not missed much. All these reality and family TV programs turned me off some years ago - the verbal abuse between folks blew me away. It has become that I now only watch TV a couple of times a week with 90% of the programs on PBS - I just decided life is too short to fill it up with what does not make me feel better.
A larger seemingly out of control population is a challenge and it appears to take a government conscious of that challenge - example Hong Cong had one of the world’s densest populations where water was at a premium as well as food, joblessness that was at epidemic rates. Unlike China, Hong Cong did not impose a birth limit but did raise the standards through raising the people with - access to education, new water and food sources - by focusing on developing their people Hong Cong became a thriving economic powerhouse and with this came economic success - Singapore did much the same - there is an Island in the Philippians that had created a culture that men could embrace of limiting the size of the family and they unlike the main areas of the Philippians still have a fishing industry as well as, now with smaller families all the children can attend school and with fewer pregnancies the women are adding to the economy.
My concern is secondary the size of a population - Yes, a concern with climate change and the loss of wild areas and sea life. I do think this country wants to use its money and resources to keep our powerful position in the world rather than focus on investing in people. That may be an unspoken concern driving the attitude towards immigration especially among those who are seeking the protection and advantages of the US who have a reputation for large families however, my knee jerk concern is not if you do or not have large families - it is over the idea of personal freedom, choice, and creating rules that take choice away from women. Legally denying her choice makes her a chattel to a government represented by some who want to impose the religious views of some on all women, keeping women as less, without the same freedom as a male. Just the basics laws of physics you would think would connect that where ever there is an imbalance of power there is abuse -
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As clear as the division between the main two philosophies is, I try to keep in mind that how a person interprets the question, much of that interpretation is the result of factors so deeply embedded that we cannot discern them. In other words, we are not completely free to decide. Men are from Mars. Individually many of today's intelligent sophisticated men would respond to an abstract expression of the women issue favorably but when it becomes subjective, they change. There must be something profoundly atavistic about being a father.
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I agree with the deeply imbedded bit, and I think the responses are, too: that is, the way a person chooses to respond to what he perceives as a challenge to his own dearly held ideas may in fact reflect more of who HE is and his deeply imbedded way of responding to things than it does the issue itself.
The old passive aggressive mow em down by slaughtering their character tactic, (ad hominem) instead of bothering to address the issue raised is actually something found in a lot of abuse situations, and I agree with MaryPage it's maddening. It's intended to be, it's a diversionary tactic to shift the attention from a civil discussion of the parts of an issue over to the person giving the opinions, maybe even throwing in, sometimes with fake sadness, allusions to his opinion being aligned with something or someone detestable. We've all seen it.
I think people who do it are unaware they are doing it, but most people responding to an issue don't want to be psychoanalyzed just because the person hearing their opinion can't or won't bother to discuss it.
But that is exactly, as you watch debates on TV, or on the internet, what happens, and where the name calling also comes in. The issue or whatever points raised go right out the window as the person who is now being attacked then, unless he realizes what's going on, emotionally defends himself or herself.
It's just a trick, and a patronizing one, at that.
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Interesting argument. I have a friend up here in the mountains, who dislikes riding in anyone elses car or not driving and then if she is allowed to drive, you find yourself going to wherever she wanted to go, not what had been decided, because she knows better than you what you want. I refuse to ride with her any mor.. Control can be ugly
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A young women was the first in line to enter this nation from Ellis Isle when it first opened - Annie Moore, age 15 - traveling ALONE!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/child-migrant-ellis-island-history (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/child-migrant-ellis-island-history)
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I get a newsletter/blog titled "In the Words of Women". 4 women wrote a book of that title and they post a page of a letter or a journal of a woman from the Revolutionary War time.
http://www.amazon.com/Words-Women-Revolutionary-Birth-Nation/dp/0739150197/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1308499750&sr=1-1
Last week she posted a letter from Charlotte Chambers to her Mother Catherine.
Two things were of interest to me: CC talks about her defending her right to read novels and why it made sense to do so! ;); the blogger mentioned at the beginning of the blog as an introduction that CC's father was James and he was a General in the Rev'y War (actually i discovered that he was a colonel in the war, he was not promoted to General until after the war when he was in command of a "national guard" company during the Whiskey Rebellion). That same statement said he was a judge in Franklin Co, Pa. I know from my mother's cousin genealogy study that i am descended from Benjamin Chambers who founded Chambersburg in Franklin Co, Pa. So i thought James had to be a relative, bcs brothers James, Robert, Joseph and Benjamin came to the Cumberland Valley in the 1730s.
I clicked on the link to CC's Memoir at the bottom of the blog page. Lo and behold, the preface to the memoir had the whole story of the brothers coming to and settling in Pa and CCs father James is the son of my ancestor Benj and the preface includes James' letters to Catherine while he was in the Rev War for 6 yrs. very, very interesting.
But i thought you might enjoy reading Charlotte's letter to her mother on her defending the reading of novels
Memoir of Charlotte Chambers
May 4, 1792.
MY DEAR MOTHER:—
The first of March I arrived at Woodbine. How dreary was the scene! cold stormy winds, naked hills, muddy roads and pensive hours. Now rosy-footed May, ushered by gentle zephyrs, has clothed the fields in fragrant verdure. The birds warble melodiously through the blooming grove, and the time glides imperceptibly by in cheerful friendship.
At dinner to-day the reading of novels was denounced without mercy, as an unprofitable waste of time and a dangerous amusement for young ladies! I became for the occasion a champion in the defence as a means of rational entertainment, and inquired if they had ever known an instance of very great injury resulting from the perusal of fiction? They were obliged to confess they had not. I am sure history affords many instances of heroic exploits, tender attachments, inviolable friendships, as suddenly commenced, and perhaps as imprudently, as can be found in the field of fiction. If such examples are dangerous, young ladies should not read history, for truth must make a greater impression than fable! I would as soon be compelled to subsist on meat, without fruit or vegetables, as to be confined exclusively to sober matter of fact study. In ancient history we read of obscure barbarians rising to fame and glory by force of arms, with the horrid accompaniments of carnage, cruel oppression, massacre, envy, despair, revenge, and death! until we almost contemplate the human species with abhorrence; and can scarcely forbear pronouncing it a race of monsters only tamed by art. Even in books of travel, we read of arid deserts, burning sands, frozen seas, ferocious animals, poisonous serpents, stinging scorpions; and every variety of human misery. How delightful after those repulsive scenes are the pages of a well written novel or poem; where in the luxuriant images of peaceful valleys, virtuous peasantry, shady groves, roses, myrtle, love and friendship, we become reconciled to life.
I fear, dear mother, you will pronounce my opinions heterodox.
Your devoted daughter
Nice sense of humor and very smart argument. And an even nicer surprise was that Amazon has the Memoir. I bought 2copies. BTW, i am not a person who believes that i am special or important bcs my ancestors came to the colonies in the 18th century, or fought in the Rev'n. I just enjoyed reading some about their day to day living. Now, i must admit that really enjoyed a later letter where Charlotte meets and is befriended by Pres and Martha Washington when they lived in Philadelphia. That impressed me.
Jean
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I know what you mean, My ancestors (paternal is mostly Dutch) came very early to the US and were involved in upstate New York settling Albany-Schenectady area.. It is and always has been fun to look up books and portraits for that area to see what my ancestors looked like and what they did.
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I am on the same page as you, Jean, and Steph. The anecdotes of their daily personal lives is what fascinates me about my very own ancestors. One of my, let's see, she was my great great grandmother's sister, so I guess she was my great great great aunt, kept a journal type diary of her lifetime, and I have a copy that was made of the original portion of the civil war years at the family plantation in Fredericksburg, Virginia. It is an amazing chronicle, full of dinner parties for famous generals and such like, plus details of my great grandmother being put on the train for Richmond with her toddler because she was pregnant with my grandfather, who was born in Richmond instead of Fredericksburg because of that war, while the 3 older children stayed with their grandmother, said great great grandmother, at the plantation, and so on and on. She writes of a morning when "Mr. Mason," that was my great grandfather, stopped by the plantation with a wagonload of my great grandparents best furniture from their house in town, and stored it there for the duration. She writes of the terrible difficulties they had in producing food for the dinner guests. Wild turkey filled the bill many a time! Oh, I just love that stuff! My great grandfather was not for the war, and not at all military minded, but like everyone else, he enlisted and was given a commission as an officer. At one point in a lull in the fighting, he was rowed across the river under a white flag of truce and had tea with General Burnside in his tent! You see, before the war Burnside was roommate to General Dabney Herndon Maury at West Point. When Maury married my great grandfather's sister at his family's plantation in King George, Virginia, Burnside was a groomsman. In those days, travel involving what it did, people went and stayed A WEEK for a wedding! So (and Burnside himself told this in his memoirs, as did also Maury) it was that Burnside fell in love with the Mason family, and thus he was fast friends with the Virginians, albeit they were fighting on the other side!
I love that stuff! As far as I know, my earliest American ancestor from England was Adam Thoroughgood, who came over to Virginia in 1621. Except that on my Yankee mother's side I have Mohawk blood! I guess that makes me very, very Early American!
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Mohawks ... they were a matriarchy and I have a far distant one.. You became part of your wifes family.. and in many cases, your sons would be raised by their Uncles.. Interesting tribe
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Mine is far distant, too, Steph. My mother was born in Au Sable Forks, New York, which is much further upstate than your folks were to be found. Her father's side was all English/Irish, with most lines being Irish, and they came over pre Revolutionary War. Her mother's side was from up there, too; but a different valley. Her mother's great grandmother was the daughter of a Mohawk squaw, who was actually married to a French Canadian. The French Canadian was the son of a French mother and an English father. Those valleys border Canada.
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I read today that this new ISIS group of fanatic fundamentalist Muslims in Iraq have made it their law in the areas they have conquered that all females from 6 to 46 must undergo female genital multilation. This is torture. This is also proof that it is almost ALL about keeping the female of our species in a slave status, unable to rise above the station of servants. It is so exactly parallel with the goals of some forms of Christianity! These religions name their gods differently, but they each imbue their god with a distain for women which amounts, at times, to a hatred. A rage. And of course, in their rantings they always blame all womenkind for their degraded status on the basis that women TEMPT MEN! So the bottom line is that every precious baby girl born is, in their eyes, a wicked Jezebel guilty of inciting the sexual impulses possessed by men! And so they think the solution is to keep all these filthy members of the female gender in their places as a lesser class of servants of men!
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The trailer for the movie Fifty Shades of Gray came out today - talk about taking women backwards. I understand the male protagonist is very controlling....humph.....is this today's Lolita? "We know the behavior is wrong, but it's about SEX and society is all about SEX, so in order to be hip i have to read it!?!" I remember wanting to do that when i was SIXTEEN! But obviously many more persons then 16 yr olds bought and read FSG. I suppose there will now be 100 more books and movies with the same theme. (Sigh)
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People today and especially women have no clue what is abuse - verbal abuse is rampant and they have no clue what it is much less the abuse of power that shows itself in control - the churches are the worst and I am a christian but it is difficult today to sort through what is political in the church versus what is about strengthening your inner life. The political church is as controlling assuming power over others as any non democratic government with democracy being used twisting its freedom to further the power game of those who want to control - at least Black folks could turn to their church for solace during the dark time - where do women turn since churches have decided to be the battle ground?
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We only have ourselves to turn to. We need to stop worshipping men and become a sisterhood that realizes its potential and wakes up to the fact that we do MOST of the REAL work that is done in this world!
It is perfectly normal and wonderful to be in love, but we have to love ourselves enough to demand and receive respect from the men we love. Equality and value. Unless the man in your life grants you equal value, which must amount to more than being a sex object and a housekeeper, he should not BE the man in your life! In short, we must start demanding a better breed of man!
I should not have been pulled in by the news bulletin about ISIS. Read this and wait to see what the facts may be:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434
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Yes, I read somewhere today that they think that this was not a true statement.. But for sure,they are throwing all Christians out. turn or die or leave.. How about if we did that.. Whew..
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I hate to pass on rumors instead of news, but it was reported as the word of a U.N. official that they were mandating the FGM.
Anyway, yes, it is apparently true they are forcing the Christians to convert or die. And the thing is, the Christian community has been living there in that precise section of the world for LONGER THAN ISLAM HAS EXISTED!
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Yes, I read that. The community has always been peaceful and kind to all. It is so sad.. How would the muslims feel if we started banning them from oour communities, They come to the US and try to force us into Sharia and various laws,, How sad and stupid.
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We have virtually the same thing here in our country as regards certain factions of Christians. A man is running on the Republican ticket here in Anne Arundel County, Maryland (Peroutka is his surname) who believes in two things that horrify me: One is that all law should be based upon what the Bible says, and the other is that the southern states should form a republic of their own. Of course, he got through the primary because no one votes in primaries around here anymore, and he got his people out to the polls; every single one of them!
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/anne-arundel/pasadena/bs-md-ar-peroutka-20140725,0,4903658.story
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Bumper sticker seen in California:
The Christian Right is Neither
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That's a clever one, I had to read that a couple of times to understand what it meant. hahaha
My favorite bumper sticker (this is a seque WAY off the subject) was seen driving thru Mc Donalds a couple of years ago:
I may be fat,
But you're ugly
And I can lose the weight.
I love that. hahahaa
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ewww l like that - The Christian Right is neither...
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Me, too, MaryZ. Or to be grammatically correct, I also. The Christian Right is neither!
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Some bumper stickers are way too true..
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This is longer then a bumper sticker. :D Read at your leisure this article by the author of a new book about Alice Paul's suffrage crusade. Unfortunately, (imo) she covers AP's life only until 1920 and the passage of the 19th amendment. I hope someone picks up the story from there bcs the second half of her life is equally thrilling and informative: getting 3 law degrees to know how to write the Equal Rights Amendment and getting it introduced for 50 yrs into every session of congress; forming the International Women's Party; housing escaping Jews during WWII in her home in Switzerland; working with E Roosevelt to get women included in the U.N. Human Rights declaration; and getting women included in the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
These are some quotes from the author's column about the book in the History News Newsletter today:
The person who once seemed a dangerous force was reborn by historians as a charismatic, courageous leader.
The public memory of Alice Paul was not erased by her death in 1977. A few years later, feminists in her home state of New Jersey took up the cause of her legacy. They purchased Paul’s estate for deposit in the Smithsonian Institution and Boston’s Schlesinger Library on the History of Women and several years later purchased the Paul family home in Mount Laurel, New Jersey. Paulsdale is now a national historic landmark housing the Alice Paul Institute. In 2004, the visibility of Alice Paul’s public memory reached new heights with the HBO broadcast Iron-Jawed Angels.
Alice Paul’s story continues in the present, as ERA advocates gear up for a renewed drive to success. Paul’s 1917 political protest can inform current challenges, whether it is understanding the aims of the Occupy movement, the motives of Voter ID advocates, or other campaigns. Though our history often forgets those who protest or dissent, these Americans truly exemplify the founding principles of our nation.
The second paragraph is the group that i have been involved with since 1985 that has saved her homestead, artifacts and papers and become The Alice Paul Institute which is working to save and include women's history in our consciousness, and has a leadership training center for teenage girls. Her home has been designated a National Historic Landmark and we've renovated it to look as it did when Alice lived there, but it is not a museum. It is used every week by teenagers and adults; all NJ 4th graders study NJ history and many of them come to Paulsdale to learn about AP, women's suffrage, the Quaker philosophy, and children's experience on farms in the 19th century.
The whole article can be read here:
http://hnn.us/article/156345
Jill, the author of the book and the column, was on the API bd of Directors in the 1990s and recently debuted the book at Paulsdale.
Enjoy some women's history!
Jean
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mark, I am off to a coffee..
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An interesting development in ISIS regarding the treatment of women:
http://news.msn.com/world/the-isis-crackdown-on-women-by-women-1
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That article is just plain sad. Women oppressing women.. I cry at the stupidity and clinging to conservative beliefs to punch those who don't. women are sometimes their own worst enemies.
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I had an interesting exchange with my neighbor - he couldn't be sweeter and has done me so many big favors like actually building me a new side gate and installing it and finding me a low cost handyman and always cutting the part of the lawn on the side of my driveway that is adjacent to his lawn. Yes, they make his house look better but the guy on the other side only gives me grief mostly about how my front yard plants block his view and how I like the deer allowing them in my yard and he hates the deer. Anyhow...
I do not usually say anything about my views and he shared how the Pope is looking into allowing priests to be married and I told him that during Vatican II that commission was squashed along with the one on Birth Control - he knee jerked showed upsetment saying he was the 11th child of 12 - it made me think that the issue for many is seeing themselves as children who may not be - and not as a women being caged to constant pregnancy - I did not further the discussion - he was too into his own belief but I thought how come he and his wife only have two children -
Something is not matching up - but it was an insight to how some see this issue only from the point of view of a child without regard for a women since this is her natural physical makeup - and yet these same folks are not having a child every year or a mom who does nothing but have and care for children much less what all these children could do to resources. There is an emotional kickstart here that has nothing to do with logic and suggesting because women can have babies they must with no ifs ands or buts. The days of the jolly virtuous poor are long gone in this country and in most countries that are not third world countries.
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Barbara, I have had all of those same observations so very many times. And yes, I have been arguing long and loud right here that all of our women problems could be settled if we women would just band together and speak up as a whole, cohesive group. But so far, we don't do that.
And yes, there is a complete lack of empathy from the majority of men regarding what women go through with pregnancy and birth and child rearing. They observe just one thought: if she has sex, she is going to get pregnant; and she MUST have that baby, as God has given it a soul and wants it born!
Like they know this!
The Roman Catholic Church already has and allows married priests. They just need to make it universal. And they will! Anything to get more men to take up the priesthood as a vocation.
When Eastern and Western Christianity split up (the Great Schism), the Eastern Orthodox kept the right for priests to marry. The West, in the form of Rome, denied this right, but continued to allow the Ukranian priests to marry so that they would remain under the Pope in Rome. So it is that to this very day, Ukranian priests marry and have children. This is yet another tie those people have with the West as opposed to Russia. It never seems to be mentioned in the news, however.
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I surely would have been aborted also, :) (so would Beethoven) but my objection is what it has done to so many women (and that this issue isn't seriously studied) and how I perceive its effect on the culture. I read an article recently that seems promising - the development of an implant that regulates female hormones to prevent pregnancy. It even has a remote so that it can be regulated externally, especially when pregnancy is desired. Some wondered if anyone would use it because they thought an IUD could do the same thing. However, an IUD can cause serious problems if fertilization and implantation does occur. I think they are also researching a similar device for diabetics - to regulate insulin.
Also, I heard somewhere that the reason the Roman Catholic Church denied priests the right to marry primarily because they did not want them passing down their wealth to their heirs? but to keep it in the Church? I am certainly not an expert on the subject, and I would in no wise attempt to dismiss the church's teachings - just wondering if this might have been part of their reasoning?
It is really sad what women do to women who do not agree with them; and I don't quite understand why this happens if the point to the argument is choice? Of course, women are not likely to want to band together with people they feel dismissed, ridiculed, demeaned by? just a thought...
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This is where I think we are talking about apples and oranges - I do not think most of our mothers would abort and to be so afraid is to not trust our mothers - We are all here by an accident of biology but to allow the fear of our past birth 'maybe' not happening to decide women are not worthy of deciding and the government must decide for them is basing a law on our fear of something that never happened in the past.
I could even see the concept of government deciding for women if the government also decided which men could impregnate a women - if all sperm was in a bank to be doled out by the government so that all boys deposited their sperm at a very young age upon maturity and then had a vasectomy - then a child could be conceived willingly with both in agreement -
I never did see anyone say anything in all my reading about Beethoven that his mother considered an abortion - he had a rough childhood - yes, and a father who brutalized him - raising children was very different in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. Also, a safe, Doctor assisted abortion has only been available in our lifetime.
Aborting is not a decision we in this discussion have to make - like you, I do trust my children and grandchildren as I am sure everyone in this discussion trusts their family to do the morally right thing - to stop trusting women to do what is right just because we do not personally know them is painful to hear - and then to make it a law based on that lack of trust - oh oh oh sounds no different than the concern that we cannot trust women or blacks to vote because they may choose a candidate that is not good for those who preferred women and blacks did not vote.
However, there is no sense in this line of discussion - It is certainly not in keeping with this discussion about the strength and resourcefulness of women, the wonders we have brought to society in education, entrepreneurship and service as we change women, their opportunities and the world.
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In my 85 years, I have known of, either first hand or second or third (by that I mean, I have been told, as I am sure you have, by so and so that her daughter, niece, sister, BF, or whatever had one, or heard by yet a third party or more) that a certain woman had an abortion. And I have known of two in my own family (there were probably more), but never once, never in a single case, have I heard of regret regarding the termination; only relief. All guilt, and the only guilt, where there has been any at all, which is rarely the case, seems to be focused on having gotten pregnant in the first place. Anyway, I do not feel it is the concern or business of ANYONE outside of the doctor and his patient to attempt to intervene on the decision of those two regarding HER body on the basis that she might have regrets. That is HER business. There seems to be no uproar by the anti-Choice folks after these children are born to make sure they do not suffer hunger or abuse because they are poor or unwanted. All attention is focused only upon the rights of women to determine their own destinies as regards their reproductive lives! It constitutes such an intimate interference in my personal bodily functions that it quite takes my breath away just to contemplate for even a second that my body seems to be the property of the GOVERNMENT and not governed by ME! And this from the very same and identical set of people who are, in almost every OTHER instance, dead set against government! Go figure!
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/globetest2.jpg) | Women's Issues If Art imitates Life, what does Literature show about the place of women in our society? From the Red Tent to the new movie Anna Karenina, to Malala Yousafzai in the news, has the state of women changed? What IS the state of women today, in your opinion?
Let's talk about how women are portrayed in the press, and in literature, and how accurate it is. How does advertising reflect, if it does, how women are portrayed? (Remember heels and pearls to sell refrigerators?)
How does it seem to you that women are portrayed today?
Let's talk!
National Women's History Project (http://www.nwhp.org/news/december.php) |
I have always had a problem also with the argument that had their mother chosen to have an abortion, so & so would not have been born. Or I would not have been born.
That, also, is nonsense. If you believe, as I do, that we are animals, evolved mammals, and that there is no immortal soul and no life after death, this is a totally inane theme. It just does not compute. When I am dead, my body is the same dead meat deal as the haunch of beef on your butcher's scale. No more, no less. And so, in order to further the research of my species and improve its chances health-wise, I have arranged for my body to be picked up by a Roman Catholic institution, Georgetown University Medical Center, and used by the students as a cadaver. They need that body, and will cremate what remains when they are done with it.
I also believe there are billions of other planets containing life in this and other universes. The Creator or Creators of these universes does not resemble us in any way; that was pure hubris on the part of homo sapiens. Such Higher Power or Powers has no interest in us as individual "souls," but only as a species that dominates its planet at a given time and the outcome of what it will do with that domination. In the case of my species, I think we will, as doubtless countless species have done with their own planets before us, cause our own extermination through a disregard for our environment. In other words, dirtying our own nests we destroy our chances to reach other star systems.
And cultures where the main focus of the males of the society is to subject the females, such do not have a chance of true civilization; just superstition and myth. So sad. So deeply disturbingly sad.
On the other hand, if the argument is that God wants a particular soul with particularly marvelous attributes to be born, and if you believe in such a God, then how can you contemplate for a nanosecond that God will not see to it that that soul IS, in fact, born? If God is the Reason we are to obey these in fact man-made rules, than how can it be that God is thwarted by so small a thing as a woman's choice?
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HearHear MaryPage.. I do agree with all you said.. I just want the ability to choose.. and I want it for my daughter in laws, granddaughter and everyone else.. I have seen both great joy in a pregnancy and absolute horror..
I am however bothered by women who would attack other women on the street and enforce shariah and laws regarding clothes, etc. It just seems to be such a betrayal.
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I agree, Steph. That IS a huge betrayal of our gender.
We, both male & female, have also betrayed the future generations, who will suffer and die and ultimately cease to exist, because we have polluted their entire environment: air, water and soil. One of the main reasons we can no longer adapt our behavior and clean up our own mess is that there are now runaway numbers of us. We are over populated, thanks chiefly to the prohibitions on birth control. In short, men have made laws to ensure our extinction as a species! What colossal ignorance!
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This is from 2012, but I've just seen this quote from Will and Jada Pinkett Smith about letting their daughter cut her own hair. Well said! and done.
“We let Willow cut her hair. When you have a little girl, it’s like how can you teach her that you’re in control of her body? If I teach her that I’m in charge of whether or not she can touch her hair, she’s going to replace me with some other man when she goes out in the world. She can’t cut my hair but that’s her hair. She has got to have command of her body. So when she goes out into the world, she’s going out with a command that it is hers. She is used to making those decisions herself. We try to keep giving them those decisions until they can hold the full weight of their lives.”
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Good on them!
But I do think we should tell our daughters that any PERMANENT change to their bodies, such as tattoos or body piercings, should be left until they are legally of age and capable of making a for-the-rest-of-their-lives type decision. Ear piercing for the purpose of wearing earrrings can be an exception, because they can always choose to let those holes grow back together.
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I think the prohibition on permanent markings should be applied to both male and female..
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Oh, you are absolutely right. I was just thinking girls here.
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Jimmy Buffett said it well (as always) in "Permanent Reminder of a Temporary Feeling" - mentioning tattoos, weddings, and babies.
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I love everything you've all said. It would take great will-power for me to let my children cut their own hair. I like their reasoning about personal body power, but i'm not sure that i could let a (5-16) yr old decide to cut their own hair. I can't even cut my own hair so that it looks "good," at 72. LOL
Speaking of destroying the earth. I've just read a wonderful, altho sometimes tedious, book by Robert Musil, Rachael Carson and Her Sisters. He focuses on RC, but talks about women before and after RC who led/lead the conservation/environmental movements. I have read a lot of women's history but of the 8 or 10 women he mentions, i knew only Alice Hamilton who did a lot of research about industrial diseases and influenced the laws of protections for employees, especially lead in paints and in the air. That's one of the reasons i enjoyed it so much, learning about women who were, and are, the foundation of studies, and organizations, that tell us about environmental dangers.
Jean
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Another good woman we never heard of......
Milly Zantow has passed away is Prairie du Sac, Wisconsin at 91. You likely never heard of her. And yet she affected your life every day for decades.
You know the little triangle symbols on plastics, with the numbers (1-7) inside, that tell you how to recycle? That's the "plastic identification code." We all know it, and we think it's been there forever. It hasn't. It began in the late 1970s, and it all goes back to a very sweet lady, a neighbor of mine, Milly.
The story goes that Milly took a trip to Japan and was impressed with how clean the country was, the lack of litter and plastic that was tossed away that she was accustomed to in the U.S. That inspired her to figure out how to recycle plastics, when there was no system, no infrastructure, no market, no funding, no awareness, no public campaign, to do so. It all started in the small towns of Sauk County, Wisconsin, where Milly lived.
Jean
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I had no idea and always wondered how they decided what number to give something and why.So thanks..
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Another woman girls and boys should know about - yes there have been women scientists......
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/stephanie-kwolek-inventor-kevlar/
Jean
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Having gone to school in the 50 's I look back and realize that we were taught in history that white males did everything.. Now over the years, we start to realize that women did a lot and so did blacks, Spanish.. Indians.. Amazing the misinformation.
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Isn't it amazing Steph to look back and recognize how much our history courses were biased toward white male, American/European, military, political and economic history? Maybe just as amazing today is how little history, of any kind, any college student gets. If a student is not a history major, or a liberal arts major - and LA majors may be limited - they may get NO history at all.
So, how much history 95% of the country knows about our past depends on how good their high school courses are, or their own personal interest in history.
As you all know by now, i am mad about history, especially non-tradional history. I enjoy reading biographies, history about people's movements, social history, labor history, ethnic histories and, of course, women's history. Thank goodness since the 1960s there has been continuing research and new ways of looking at the past are constantly updated and easily available.
And now here we are in the middle of all kinds of anniversaries of American history and our media is giving us some interesting looks at those events. When i taught college history courses, i included a lot of these "new" histories, as well as "personalities"of major characters, and students inevitably wrote, in anonymous evaluations, that they had come to like history and why didn't they teach them those histories in public school history courses. I clearly remember a whole year of the Civil War my junior year in high school because the teacher was a lover of that period. Fortunately i was already a reader and knew there were more interesting events and people in our past, which is why i choose history as a major...........Actually, i choose "Social Studies" as a major. That was a combination of history, political science, sociology, psychology and economics, but heavy on history courses.
Jean
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ah history - I too have loved history - usually it starts with a question why this or that happened and then tracing the happenings helps however, I have learned that I cannot depend on one author - it is like looking in a cracked mirror or a group of folks all having gathered around a catastrophe - there are as many view points as gawkers and so too there appears to be as many view points of the same historical event as authors - they do not all use the same research either - then the whole question of what is truth rears its ugly head. And so over the years I've learned as much from historical novels as I do out and out history with both only sharing a viewpoint.
The other realization I had is we really do not know the rational for so much - we think we do because of actions or what we find in memoirs, diaries and letters but then, we share what we want to share and our real thought may not have been shared which to me accounts for many in history who we try to imagine intent. When things are horrid, brutal, in-human how easily we define our own version of intent seeing it from what we value and so too we evoke heroic and noble intent for what we determined was a good thing -
And so where I still enjoy history I am seeing that a good novel gets me thinking and lining up what I value and my viewpoints even more so than reading history - oh there may be behavior I admire in an historical figure but I really do not know the pull and influences developing that behavior where as, a novel follows a path that gives me a wider viewpoint to the behavior or at least why the author needed a character with that behavior to tell the story. A novel connects more dots.
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So true, i've often said to my students and our children that we have no idea what information the decision-makers have that we don't have and altho we can form opinions of current affairs, we usually aren't looking at "facts!" That's why i get infuriated at these stupid on-air "polls" that tv news stations do. "let us know if YOU think the police should tell the cop's name?" ARRRGGGHHH
Poor Obama, i said to my family this week that Obama must be waking up every morning asking "is it 2017 yet?"
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Someone, I don't remember who said that " History is written by the winners" and I think that for many years, this was true. I love reading history of events,that I thought I knew and discovering that I really only knew one side.. My younger son was a history major, but his interest in in Viet Nam, the whys and why nots, etc. He has a huge collection from that era and swears that upon retirement, he will write his own version.. Who knows.
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I am right in there with you, and History is my passion, as well and all. If I had my life to live over, I WOULD NOT do the same things again! (There was a song in my youth: If I Had My Life To Live Over.) I would skip the Love & Marriage bit, and be a History teacher.
As for reading more than one historian, oh, definitely! All possible sources. We should always remember that much was written by few in past centuries, and those few possessed opinions and biases and were anxious to tell it their way, just like today. It is the proliferation of literacy, combined with the high speed of dispersion due to technology, that more or less causes Facts to prevail in our century. Even so, Faith and mythology are still humongous tools large interest groups are using to obscure true facts. Religious sects garner up seemingly infinite winds of zeal in a effort to hold on to male domination of society, while the greedier Midases in their corporate offices will disseminate all manner of lies, many disastrously harmful to mankind in the long run, in order to pile up their luxuries.
I remain convinced, for instance, that Henry VII, and later the Tudors, in England, were masters of propaganda; and managed to totally smear Richard III and the (more) legitimate York line and to make the quite illegitimate Lancaster line (Parliament had passed a LAW, for crying out loud, that the Beaufort blood could NOT inherit the throne!) seem preferable. Oh well, he won by combat, which has always been accepted as legal. Still, Power set out to sway public sentiments then, as it continues to do today.
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Re: History written by the winners. Definitely true. One of John's favorites is an old novel by Kenneth Roberts set in Revolutionary times called Oliver Wiswell. The hero/protatonist is a Tory.
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I do not trust the deliberate authors of histories prior to having to list sources, nearly so much as I do letters and journals and official papers both of private persons and public archives. Obviously our myths, and those of the ancient peoples, contain a lot of historical events as handed down around the cooking fires, told and retold, ever changing and evolving, each tainted by personal experiences of the individual relaters.
For instance, the Bible is chock full of real history, terribly tainted by prejudiced distortion and bent to prove points and institute rules designed to be obeyed under the sway of the Fear of God. How, where and when we came to insist upon it as Absolute Unerring Truth is still unclear to me, but I believe this to have originated in America in the nineteenth century, and again to have been a tool for those who would Rule by instilling Religious Fear.
When I was growing up, the Roman Catholic Church did not emphasize, or indeed even encourage, their adherents to read their Bible (which has A LOT of differences from the Protestant Bibles). The prayer book was EVERYthing, in those days. Bible reading was, and remains, a very Protestant thing. I was raised Episcopalian, and taught that the Bible was largely allegorical. I was astonished upon attending a convent school for two years to discover the girls there had never even peeked in a Bible! Oh, they knew their Religion well; but never explored that which was not required of them. Me, by that point in time I had already read the (St. James version) Bible all the way through, including the begats, and begun a second and more careful reading, one in which I allowed myself to skip the begats. The (new to me) fact that Catholics had extra books in theirs made me seek out a Douay Bible and learn all kinds of new and horrific stuff, like the Maccabees being cut up and roasted in humongous frying pans!
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Oh ugh.. never read the catholic bible and dontneed people roasting in anything. I have been pursuing the whys and wherefores of the bible for the past few years. Ah, the differences in versions and what is actually happening at the same time.
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Well, exactly. How can ANYone make the claim, even based on Faith, that the Bible in without error when you consider:
The Bible which is supposed to be perfect is NOT THE SAME collection of books that Christianity held sacred for almost a thousand and a half years. The Vulgate and the Douay were the Bibles of Christianity, and the Church was the Roman Catholic Church. Then along came Prostestants, and that has Evolved into many different versions of The Bible. So which ONE is it that is Perfect?
I am all for Faith, and for honoring the Faith of others. But hey, what about Reason? In this case, I feel compelled to ask the question: Which Bible?
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Translation is a discipline all its own: translators vary in how closely they adhere to the original text(s) being used. I believe the Christian Church has maintained that the Bible is inerrant in its original form, not that every translation holds such a status. However, I am not aware of any findings of more ancient texts (including the Dead Sea Scrolls and texts discovered at the Essene community), that have seriously challenged orthodox beliefs. For instance, I believe all orthodox Christian Churches would accept the doctrines expressed in the Nicene Creed or the Apostle’s Creed, both of which reflect the Church’s understanding of the teachings of Scripture.
This is, of course, a most important matter since all religions that I am aware of have their own truth claims. On the other hand, this is also a question that will ultimately be answered, if there is conscious awareness at all after death: finally, we will all know true Truth.
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Several of the parables are not in the 3 original bibles still in existence - as monks copied the bible they added stories in the margins that were later included when other monks copied the texts and translations were not always interpreting words with their meaning - there is a Bible Scholar, Bart Ehrman, Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina who shares some of this in classes available on tape as well, many books explaining the inaccuracies of the Bible. This was one of the reasons Catholics were not encouraged to read the bible - the Douay-Rheims, 1611 was particularly bad with the Latin Vulgate 'the' approved although, the church admits it is still inaccurate because of translating from Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew into Latin.
All King James did was gather a group of men that were finally reduced to 14 men to come up with the least offensive stories and translations to create the King James - there is a whole book about that process God's Secretaries by Adam Nicolson -
You can learn how the names attached to the four Gospels were made up in order to fit the parameters set for a bible to be accepted in the canon and how no bibles written by women would be accepted and that any bible or people that did not accept that Jesus was both Man and God was considered heretical with the people duly tortured or killed outright and any bible that suggested the Jesus was either just man or just God was banned and certainly not included therefore, omitting the Gnostic Bible and how there was a thousand year argument as to if Jesus was both God and Man before it was made part of the canon in the 15th century.
The earliest rational made by Tertullian in about the year 200 AD was finally accepted as the rational which he said the story was too fantastic not to believe it. Since this accepted notion, especially when the translations were coming off the Gutenberg press, all sorts of configurations pulling out phrases and text from a translated Bible have been cobbled together to justify this principle of the Trinity.
The concept of Satan became part of the Christian tradition by way of the Essenes in the second century resurrected from some Jewish traditions. A Satan concept was used by Christians to explain the Roman horrors and the Jews who hated those who followed Christ - it was not till almost the 3rd century that Satan came to represent a sinful way of life to be avoided.
The history of the growth and many changes among Christians is fascinating, making any follower aware that what we believe today was not cut in stone and only grew and was altered many times over with men deciding what was and was not to be included in the canon.
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The Great Courses is offering Ehrman's course on the New Testament - 24 lectures - for sale through 8 September.
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I have been taking Ehrmans courses and they are wonderful. He made me understand that the early Christians had a lot of reasons to declare heresy for a number of excellent writings. The current bibles are almost all committee works, therefore subject to individual prejudices.. Saying that all people (Christian ) declare that certain common prayers are all the same, means that you have not been in many different types of churches.
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Yes, I have been astonished upon attending various other services for a variety of reasons (weddings, funerals, memorials, etc.) to encounter the differences. One of the things I look back at now and giggle over is the saying of The Lord's Prayer in the convent school. When everyone else's voice stopped abruptly (or so it seemed to me) with an Amen, my own voice would continue on with "For Thine is the Kingdom and The Power and The Glory - - - -", etc., and I would be awash with mortification. You see, Catholics do not have that end part in this prayer. They stop with "And deliver us from Evil!"
Yes, I think you have to read books, take courses, and visit all denominations in order to fully appreciate the mixed stew of sects within Christianity.
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There have been - and still are - many 'higher criticisms' made about the Bible, which all have their own biases and prejudices and begin with their own presuppositions. For instance, if you don't believe in miracles, then those described in Scripture are considered 'fables', although the belief in a transcendent God who is 'completely other' would not necessarily eliminate the concept of miracles. And that 'miracles' can be 'explained' as having occurred by natural means does not refute them, as they still occur as/when predicted, and the God described in Scriptures is often shown to work through secondary causes.
There are a variety of traditions found throughout the denominations of Christianity, though there is also a common core of beliefs necessary to declare a church 'Christian' (I don't believe 'common prayers' is the same thing as 'creeds'; I am not using the terms interchangeably).
All that aside, the Bible makes truth claims about Christ, including those he makes about himself. As with the truth claims presented in all Holy Books, these can be examined and considered.
And it is still true that:
'On the other hand, this is also a question that will ultimately be answered, if there is conscious awareness at all after death: finally, we will all know true Truth.'
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August 18 - Women's Equality Day! Women won the right to vote in 1920 after 50 years of battling for suffrage. Thank you Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Carrie Chapman Catt, Alice Paul, Lucy Burns and thousands and thousands of others.
Jean
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Good Grief folks who study anthropology and the Bible are not in a well paid job using their prejudice - that would be like saying a mathematician like Einstein uses his opinion and prejudice solving math problems - believing in miracles has nothing to do with examining ancient texts and seeing the additions and changes - it is right there in front of you - You can be Christian today following any number of Bible Tracts which was not possible until the Gutenberg press allowed a timely printing and that Luther rebelled after seeing how it was in Rome. To be Christian is to embrace Christ and all Christians came from the same stew pot - the Roman Catholic tradition - and within that tradition there were many sects - most monasteries had their own traditions, prayers and way of saying Mass all approved by the Pope in Rome -
Before Luther there were 52 rites to the church - 52 approved masses - 52 separate practices, music, prayer, what days were celebrated, when Easter would be celebrated etc etc. After Luther each denomination decided the how and what of their group down to how it would be governed.
The question of miracles is a recent phenomenon - before the advancement of science and our understanding of how the universe and disease functions all unknowns were either a sign from God or if it turned out well a miracle - The answer to unknowns - examining the collected examples of the Bible through out history and with each ancient scroll found there is more and more clarified.
I get annoyed now that Vatican II decided as Catholics we should read the Bible - for thousands of years the faith and practices honoring god had little to do with the stories in the bible - however, if others find their faith and practices are more meaningful for reading this book - fine - just do it - but do not hold it over the heads of other Christians as if we have a right to judge each other.
as to the role of women in the Christian Church - that is the sadist sadistic history of sanctioned abuse - my sister is a philosopher and had been a Dominican for 35 years - her specialty is in women and their contribution to Christian Churches including Muslim since they have a direct connection through Abraham - She still teaches although no longer the Dean of the Philosophy Department in the collage she was associated with for years however, she has given many addresses on this subject by invitation in the US, France and Japan.
In the early Roman Christian church there were women Deacons and Bishops - remember neither position at that time entailed being an ordained priest just as Popes and Cardinals were not ordained priests however, there is all sorts of historical evidence that women held a greater position of power in the church than after the Reformation. Luther did not like that secular approach to running and over seeing the church - he was not prepared any more than most folks today to realize that there were and always were two arms of the church - one legal and political and the other monastic and spiritual.
Things like what prayers are approved and if this or that is to be believed (Theology) and what day various holy days are celebrated and if a place of worship should or not have images etc. etc. are all the legal aspects of any church and have little to do with your relationship with God - they may guide you to a more connected state of being with God but the real work is with the spiritual guidance available in ceremony, good works and study.
No different than being a good American seldom comes from reading the Constitution but is enhanced by reading about other Americans who made a difference, and taking part in a patriotic celebration that includes songs that raise the fervor toward being more connected with our neighbors.
Legalities, Constitutional interpretation, Theology, Bibles, bring us to a court of Law rather than sharing a community campfire. Differences can be negotiated in a court of Law even churches have their conclaves to determine what is right and wrong but none of that addresses the spiritual nature of those who are building community. It is not differences we need to search out it is where we are the same. What group is doing a good job of equally elevating all people regardless of gender, race, economic circumstances and creed.
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I applaud.
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Jean, and it's always good to remember that Tennessee was the state that cast the deciding vote to ratify the 19th amendment.
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Yes TY to Tenn and to that mother of a Tenn legislator who told her son to "do the right thing." His vote sent the amendment to victory.........somewhere i have his name, but its not in my brain right now.
Jean
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Oh, I do so relate to that!
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I almost never agree with this woman's columns or opinions, but she got it nailed on the conservative side of our paper's editorial pages this morning.
Click here (http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2014/aug/18/tennessee-final-cog-in-womens-voting-rights/?opinioncolumns) to read about Tennessee's part in passing the woman's suffrage amendment.
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Hurrah for suffrage! Thanks Mary.
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The August 11 & 18 issue of The New Yorker (yes, a double issue) has a political article titled The Uses of Division by George Packer. Basically, it relates a history of the rise of the Right, with an awful lot about Reagan in it. I have just read it, and was shaken by the following paragraph, which I want to share with you. I am struck by what it says about Jimmy Carter, and realize this is what his legacy will be; but I am absolutely thunderstruck and devastated by what it says about the American public:
"If you listen to Carter's Oval Office addresses on inflation, energy, and the nation's "crisis of confidence," the level of honesty is shocking, and deflating. No President has ever spoken that way since. The lesson he taught all his successors was not to tell the American people hard truths."
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Oh my, a very very true statement. Carter simply has never understood that people do not want hard truths.. he still does it.. A bad President, but a truly good man.
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My assessment precisely, Steph. I did not vote for Jimmy Carter. I voted for Gerald Ford. For one thing, I had met Ford many times at various events around town (Washington, D.C.). He was famous back in the day for going to everything that was going on; everything he was invited to. I never saw Betty! It cannot be said of me that I "knew" Ford, but he seemed to be a good, true and loyal representative of the people to me, and so it was that I stuck by him.
And I found Carter to be something of a wimp, truth be told. He was not a speck like any of the politicians I had worked with. I even felt, and now I realize this shows me up as something of a snobbish elitist, a tad contemptuous of him for using the childlike name Jimmy in running for President of this nation, rather than using the formal adult name James. I used to scoff at that.
Now I kick myself. He WAS a nerd, but a brilliant one and a good hearted one and a man who wanted desperately to BE honest with us. Well, this could be on his tombstone: "He never let us down, but we let him down."
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Oh dear - really - a bad president - just because he thought we were grown up enough to hear the truth - oh oh oh - and so we are nothing but sheep that should be lead by a president who we see over and over his powers are limited when a Congress is split on arming the police as combat soldiers - what will shake up these power hungry men in Congress - but them Carter was not a man about power either so where he treated us as equals there was no force that is the leadership to get things done.
This is where it gets confusing because the best of leaders still listened to others and put us in harms way - is that it - we are looking for the perfect leader - have we so lionized presidents from our post that we assume such a perfect leader exists. They seem to be easily swayed to make leadership choices that will strengthen their party - was Congress just weaker during the presidency of FDR - how did he get so much done to benefit the average person before WWII - he certainly had his detractors - folks like George P. Davis who took his case of taxation caused by SS to the Supreme Court - but then even the Supreme Court had a less political mission.
Well bottom line Carter has made an exemplary post president life - they all write books but he also lead folks to make a difference here and abroad.
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My argument about bad president is somewhat personal. I had a son who was trying out for the Olympic and a really good prospect and then boom... no Olympics. I also felt that he did not support the people trapped in Iran. I also admit to not being a fan of his family except for his Mother who was truly a hero.
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Wasn't she JUST!
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A woman reporter on Andrea Mitchell MSNBC show said "(Mo'ne) doesn't throw LIKE A GIRL!" REALLY!?! She's a GIRL! Obviously that's the way a GIRL THROWS! I can't believe a woman reporter would make such a stupid, sexist statement in 2014! It's the 21st century folks! OMG
Somedays i think i am still in the early 1960s. What happened to the consciousness we raised?
Jean
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when you get into the workforce unless a university or social service and even there, it all disappears in order to be accepted and get ahead. the more militant we have become the more chest thumping is the male - if not at home then among his and her peers.
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Jean, re Mo'Ne, the pitcher. The signs her fans hold at her ballgames read "Mo'Ne throws like a girl!" I love it!
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Yes, me too, Mary!
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Yes, she is sweet and honest and gives full credit to her team mates. A genuine lady.. in many ways.
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Mitchell probably meant she throws just as well as (or better than) a male pitcher, and to say she throws like a girl was an insult insinuating that girls do not throw as well as men.
Marj
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What the huge crowd of little girl fans mean when they hold up signs saying Mone throws "LIKE A GIRL" is to be totally ironic and mock the well known put down males of our species have used forever. They are saying "like a girl" now means to throw as well as Mone does, because guys, have you noticed, Mone is a girl and is throwing no hitters!
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So even though they lost and are out of the running, she has had a moment of fame and hopefully will keep on going.
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Yes! Making "like a girl" a positive instead of the usual put-down! Exactly the way Af-Americans took procession of the word "black," or homosexuals took procession of the word "queer." But the reporter - not Mitchell, she would not have said it, i'm sure- said she "doesn't throw like a girl." Meaning less well than the boys, she throws really well - like a boy, was the implication.
I remember in the 80s that some group started using the word bitch as meaning beautiful, intelligent, tough, etc, unfortunately, altho it's used often today by both men and women, it's still used negatively and i don't like it. I like Joy (from The View, is her last name Beihart?) but she used the word in a very nasty way, supposedly as a joke. I never thought it was funny.
Here in the Philly area, Mo'ne is getting a lot of press and she says she wants to play basketball for UConn and then play in the WNBA. So we probably haven't heard the last of her. She's getting requests to be on talk shows.
Jean
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Jean, in the interview I heard, she said she wanted to be the first woman to play major league baseball or in the NBA. She'll be fun to watch, whatever!
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Maybe by the time she's ready to ho to college she'll decide to look at the Lady Vols. ;)
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Read an interesting article in(I think) the NY times on maturation rates and why a 13 year old girl can be fully grown( I know I was) and the 13 yo boy has not yet started, so this may makea difference to Mone
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Jean - :D :D
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I got my first period just precisely as I turned 13, and I never grew another inch in height after that year. By the time I reached 14, my periods were regular and I was my lifelong adult height, that is, until I reached my seventies and some osteoporosis shrank me down almost two inches!
Makes me sick to my stomach thinking of those African, Arabian and Asian girls being forced into marriage at thirteen! I had "become a woman" biologically, but I was a CHILD, for crying out loud!
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The point in the article is that the boys catch up and pass females as far as muscle, height, etc by late teens.. Having had two sons, I can attest that they were not even beginning the growth until late high school and college.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sen-kirsten-gillibrand-talks-weight-struggles-sexism-new-book-article-1.1919242
This is absolutely unbelievable! In 2014! These male senators have been sitting in committee hearings about sexual harassment in the military and on college campuses and some of them were there in 1991 for the Anita Hill hearings and they obviously heard and learned NOTHING!
One guy TOUCHED her stomach! Women's bodies are there for the touching? And the comments!?! OMG!
I hope the women of congress gang up on guys who behave so badly and take them to task, but i have a feeling that there is some kind rule of old boy network in the Senate of not attacking your colleagues. However, since a Senator felt it was o k to call the president a liar on television at the State of the Union speech that rule should be dead.
Of course, HER comment of "I think his comments were sweet, even if ..... an idiot" REALLY!?! That's the reason this bad behavior continues. We are so pleased to have male attention and compliments that we can't correct them, and so we let them get away with this crap. And Harry Reed calling her "hot"! A professional colleague!?! Men have sex on the brain so often they can't discern when it is and is not appropriate.
This is so appalling to me.
Jean
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I came in here this morning to talk about the Gillibrand thing, and find you have beaten me to it. I heard about it on MSNBC last night.
None of it surprises me. And no, the vast majority just don't get it. After what happened to Anita Hill, and considering the fact that since 1991 there have been books which PROVED she was telling the truth, and yet there has been no public acknowledgment of that fact, there have been no headlines exonerating her. I remember one book in particular, though I do not now remember the author or authors or the title, which, in setting out to write the book, the purpose was to prove she LIED, because the author or authors started out believing she had lied. And Whoa! They discovered she had been telling the truth and wound up writing a book which said so!
I had to work almost all of my life. And I can tell you that sexism and sexual harassment are not only rampant out there, and the number of men who do this is not only staggering, but the WHO are staggering as well! They are your neighbors husbands, almost every man in a given business or community group, white collar, blue collar, professionals, leaders. They should know better, but I really do believe that when the blood supply rushes to the penis, it turns off in the brain. The chances they tried to take with me were breathtaking to me! I remember one well to do community leader whose newspaper I worked for. He wanted to show off the brand new subdivision he had developed, and took me to see his just opened model homes. This was in the sixties. Then he tried seriously and physically to seduce me in one of the bedrooms! I am serious, I had to FIGHT him off! Men had a mindset that if you worked, you were eager for sexual exploitation! Or something like.
Anita Hill told the truth. Gillibrand is telling it. Nothing will EVER change unless or until ALL women fess up and organize to insist upon change.
Ain't going to happen!
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I am sorry,,, Gillibrand needs to name names. We need to know how many pigs are there and how to get rid of anyone with that sort of mind set.. We learned nothing from Anita and we should have. Clarence Thomas is not fit to a supreme court justice and never has been, but he is there for life and that is so wrong.
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Do you get the feeling it is like we are all doomed to be Sisyphus with the same issues over and over and over and over again with the hill becoming steeper each time rather than flatter
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YEP!
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Steph - i agree there needs to be name-stating. But maybe it needs to be done by a Woodward-and-Bernstein-type investigative reporting. Gillibrand may not be able to do it and still be able to do her job. I'm sure there are more then enough stories to fill a book.
Yes, Barb, it seems we just keep pushing that boulder up the hill - or actually several boulders - sexual harassment, voting rights, sexism, equal pay, etc.
Here is another one - the way women are perceived in performance appraisals........
http://www.fastcompany.com/3034895/strong-female-lead/the-one-word-men-never-see-in-their-performance-reviews
Jean
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html
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When you think of it, it is such a very small thing that most women want. Just to be perceived and treated as equals..To vote, to compete fairly for jobs. Why oh why is it so hard for men to understand.
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The close to perfect man who was my third husband understood that completely, and there are many who do. But those many are just a drop in the sea, as it were: the sea of men. Males have a domineering gene in them which cannot be turned off. They are born to swagger about and be the cock in the henyard. They rather desperately need women to dominate! And they justify their treatment of us by rationalizing we are a much weaker subspecies created only for the purpose of carrying their young and being their personal servants. Even if they do not consciously THINK these things, this is the all pervasive feeling within them, and this feeling is bolstered and fortified by their packs of fellow males. The lower on the totem pole of male rank they are in their daily lives, the more they require subservient women in their lives to give them a sense of worth.
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Marypage I wonder if it feel rather than are lower on the totem pole because most of us were shocked to learn of the battered women trying to be believed and asking for help to escape form the powerful leaders of our community in addition to the well paid CEO types of the national corporations with campuses here in Austin. The biggest shock was the second greatest number of women who fall in that category of no one to tell are the wives of ministers - the first being the wives of police officers.
25 years ago it used to be the wives of IBMers but their company changed seldom uprooting families so that the women lost their support systems and only had others from their last location to feel an intimacy with and of course saying anything to them meant the family would loose as the husband would be passed over for promotion.
But trying to whisk to safety the minister's wives is really a challenge and with today's technology oh my the tracking these controlling men have utilized reminds me of reading a CIA novel.
For many men in the upper echelons of society their sexual prowess was the measure of his ability to lead - if you go back into the movie archives of the 50s it was a rampant theme especially in the more frank movies coming out of Italy and France - this appears to be an underground characteristic that many men use to measure each other. That is why the issue surrounding birth control is really about their inability to control the sperm and their only way to cope is to make less the ones who symbolize the control of that sperm. Their sperm appears to be for many men their power source. The older sexual man is still honored among men - thus Viagra.
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You have a point, Barbara, but I state it that way because an accumulation of news stories about cases from all around the world over my lifetime leads me to believe it is the lower ranks of men who are the most overtly violent. In my own experience, I find the more "liberal" minded men tend to be college graduates who are filling the higher rank jobs. But then again, most of these marry college educated women, and do not pick up "trophy" wives. Why in hell being against women's right to be equal with men is considered being "conservative," I will never figure out, but this is, as you well know, the case, just as not being bigoted against women, people of color, and other types of designation grouping people is called being "liberal." When I was ten or twelve, if I had been asked, I would have immediately responded with the answer that the latter was being "Christian." Now I cannot, because so many Christians in our beloved nation are exhibiting the most ghastly bigotry of all!
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One of the news sites I get had an article yesterday about how more Christians who attend regular service are addicted to Porn than any other group - the article had a thesis about quilt being the culprit - the need to feel quilt that was similar to the quilt expected when caught as a child for anything that was bad behavior - as to collage educated - no way - look at the rape that is finally being admitted as a problem on College Campuses and look at all those so called business parties especially the notorious Christmas party and the many secretaries hired for their looks and availability. At one time I too thought the more educated the less gross - learned it is a fantasy.
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Well, Barbara, you may be right, but I have read over and over again (The Washington Post, The New York Times, etc.) that the vast majority of the college assaults take place with the athletes and frat boys, and they represent a minority of the actual graduates. It seems to be an important (to them) part of their college life CULTURE!
So I still see more good sense and civilized behavior and acceptance of the equality of people of our gender amongst the well educated than among the undereducated.
Here, at the Naval Academy, for instance, where the vast majority of the female midshipmen HAVE been accosted at one time or another during their college years here, over and over and over again the bad behavior has come from the athletic stars. That has been made explicit in the front page stories in our local newspaper, The Capital.
Our new Superintendant promises to bring an end to this abuse. I wish. I hope. But we have heard that before.
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Underground networks for abused women used to be easier, but the internet has changed that.. also the age progression computer programs for children.. I know it is useful for kidnapping, etc but I remember my friend who ran with her four daughters,, He never found them and she did not come out from cover until the youngest was 18,, I suspect nowadays she would not have been able to hide that long.
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I suspect you are right. I would probably have never thought of that aspect at all, but your mentioning it makes me follow the thread in my mind and see the implications.
Chuck Todd, who, like Tim Russert is a "force of nature" type, is the new host on Meet The Press. I liked David Gregory a lot, I mean, what is NOT to like about David Gregory. But Gregory is a nice guy, and not a force of nature personality. I do believe Tim Russert groomed Chuck Todd for this very job, and I applaude his choice. Woo Hoo! Hold on tight, the awesome roller coaster ride begins next Sunday morning!
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I am a big David Gregory Fan, so not sure about Chuck.
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Chuck Todd thinks the same way I do, and he (unlike me) appears to possess a photographic type memory that can instantly recite every race in every state in the union: names of candidates and all of their credentials. He remembers EVERYthing! Just blows me away. Russert had a strong instinct for and knowledge of the political game, but Todd beats him with his encyclopedic knowledge.
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ah now I know who you mean. Yes, he is remarkable with the memory thing..
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Am pleased that Chuck Todd will be host of Meet the Press -- perhaps will bring in new guests -- not the same folks with the same talking points. Will miss him in the morning (I record as not up that early). Do enjoy Jose Diaz-Belart -- new perspective.
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About the Gillibrand thing...when Reid called her 'hot', she was flattered; actually (quietly, of course) seemed to feed her campaign with that notion; 'the hottest senator'. How can she then be 'champion' of women and their defender against unwanted/inappropriate sexual advances?
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I also like Chuck Todd. He did a very nice "goodby" at MSNBC, putting on screen the names and titles of everybody who worked on the show and mentioning them himself.
There is a positive response being planned for women's rights on Constitution Day......
http://www.wearewoman.us
On the other hand, from the New Yorker:
In February, Mary Beard, a classics professor at the University of Cambridge, gave a lecture at the British Museum titled “Oh Do Shut Up Dear!” With amiable indignation, she explored the many ways that men have silenced outspoken women since the days of the ancients. - See more at: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/156732#sthash.1AXoJve3.dpuf
Yes, mogomom, those old habits of being flattered by any male attention are very hard to break, and easy to slip back into. I'm surprised she said that in her book.........of course, i don't know how she spoke of it in her book, did she go on to acknowledge that that was not a good response? (Rhetorical question :))
Jean
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It is most often women who compliment one another, and we are used to this and never give it a thought, although we appreciate such friendly comments.
But we are conditioned to being thought less of than are the boys from a very early age. Mothers have been as guilty of projecting this attitude as fathers, as most women yearn to prove themselves, albeit subconsciously, by producing a son for their mates.
So when we get a compliment from a male, regardless of age or rank or relationship, we do tend to remember it clearly, while forgetting the many, many more compliments from those of our own gender.
Men tend to be rather clumsy with words of approval, and even when they possess the very best of intentions their compliments tend to come from the very base of their minds, where they view all women with the exception (most of the time) of their own mothers, sisters and daughters as sexual objects.
So the need to change thinking patterns is most definitely in the men's court, as it were. They need to put permanent stoppers in their way of regarding females and begin to grant us first and foremost equality as human beings.
Our female friends do not tell us we are "hot." Once the men stop doing so, we will be just as receptive to our male colleagues telling us they think the dress we have on is pretty as we do when the gal at the next desk does so.
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Once the men stop doing so, we will be just as receptive to our male colleagues telling us they think the dress we have on is pretty as we do when the gal at the next desk does so.
What an optimist you are MaryPage! LOL ;D
I don't think men are going to stop thinking of us as hot, or not, and that's probably a good thing for species generation. :D. But i wish they could control their impulses to comment (let alone TOUCH) about us in a sexual context when they are strangers or colleagues to us. Some of them have a difficult time understanding context. Of course, as long as it's considered not only acceptable, but almost required as part of the ole boys network, or that boys will be boys, it will not change.
I worked for Dept of Army and know from experience that if a greater goal is in danger, almost every man can have implulse control. When we had Chiefs of Staff, or Commanders, who said "women will be respected in every way and sexual harassment will not be tolerated," it happened. When we had senior officers or civilian managers who would give a wink and a nudge about sexist behavior, it happened. And when women in power called out misbehavior, it stopped, at least around her.
I was the advisor to the Command and to the employees on sexual harassment cases, so i had the Commander's authority behind me to call out such behavior. I'm sure there was much discussion behind my back, but many women and some men appreciated it. And it was often kind of fun to jerk some guy's chain. They nearly always submitted to the reasonableness of my being right. ;) ;) Of course, the military men were most quick to follow those orders, some civilian men didn't hop to as quickly.
By the way, i had almost as much educating to do with some women as with some men. Some women liked playing the flirty, poor me, i'm so helpless, you're the big strong man role. I also had to deal with a situation in the human resources dept where a young man -who was one of two in the dept- was being harassed by some of the women. I also had to educate some women that "you do not have to put up with behavior toward you that is embarrassing, or intimidating, or obnoxious". We have grown up with it so much that we often feel there is no recourse - and we may not get supported by anyone - female or male - if we speak up. That seems to be changing and as more women like Gillibrand speak up and get the kind of support she has gotten in most of the media, it should get better.............. I can't even imagine what Rush is saying - don't want to.
Jean
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Rush Limbaugh and his ilk NEVER figure in my imagining!
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Oh Jean, you put it so well. I have been observing my own representative to the younger generation and my granddaughter mostly stands up for herself, but every once in a while, a total stranger puts her on her guard. I keep reminding her that her life and body are her own, no one elses.
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Every once in a very great while, not often at all, mind you, I run into a bit of information about someone that tells me THAT is a person I have always aspired to be.
This happened again this week while I was reading, a week late, the September 1, 2014 issue of The New Yorker. In shades of orange to red to brown to black, the front cover shows shadowy figures holding their arms in the air.
The article is written by Rebecca Mead (related to Margaret?) and is titled THE TROLL SLAYER. The woman I wish I were is Mary Beard, a professor at Cambridge in England. Beard is really, really into what we often talk about in here: men's historical attitudes towards women.
Points to ponder: Beard says the first RECORDED instance of a man telling a woman that her voice is not to be heard in public appears in THE ODYSSEY, where Penelope"s son tells her that "speech will be the business of men," and sends her upstairs to do her weaving.
Beard also points to a horrendous crime in METAMORPHOSES (Ovid) in which a man rapes a woman and then cuts her tongue out so that she cannot tell.
If you can possibly get a hold of this magazine, you will fall in love with Mary Beard. Oh gosh, but I want to be HER!
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Can you imagine how different history would be if women wrote it??
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MaryPage - i read that Mary Beard article too, here it is for anyone who would like to read it.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/01/troll-slayer
Steph - ironically, there is another Mary (Ritter) Beard - no relation to MB above - who was a historian in the first half of the 20th century who wrote many women's history books. On Understanding Woman is a comprehensive, easily readable, book. I read it in the 80s and especially remember a phrase she used "women launched civilization." Her theory being that many of the characteristics we attribute to being civilized would logically been begun by women. Because women and children lived in small groups and men roved in bands, women would have begun singing (soothing children, funeral dirges, work songs); agriculture (these small groups moved from place to place for food and water - women may have noticed when coming back to a spot where they remembered a child spilled a basket of grain a few weeks before, grain is now growing, could they do that deliberately?); laws ( living in groups requires rules); painting (entertaining children); taming animals (to control vermin, to provide milk) etc, etc!
Makes sense to me!!!
Site with more info about Mary Ritter Beard and her books. Another one i liked was Woman as a Force in History She wrote several books with her husband James. The Beards were a famous historian family.
http://www.distinguishedwomen.com/biographies/beard.html
Jean
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Jen, I will look for it. Sounds interesting and quite logical actually. Although I do remember when reading up on various indian tribes. Some stayed Hunters ( their example was Apache and Comanche) and other tribes settled into a fixed existence and grew crops and the men ranged out to bring home meat.. I thought that was interesting, although as I recall, they gave no dates on this.
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Did you read the Jean Auel books? There are six in the Earth's Children series. I managed 4 of them, and still have the last two on my shelves. Humongous volumns, but you sure do get a full sense of the history of this planet in the early years of the existence of human beings.
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I read thre of the Auel books, but then they started getting silly, so gave them up.
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I read Jean Auel's Clan of the Cave Bear years ago and loved it. But I was disappointed in the next one and did not finish it.
Marj
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same here - the first one had me glued to the pages
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Yes, no question but the first book was by far the best.
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I read Jean Auel's first three books way back in the eighties. I do not remember when the movie was made of the first book, but I do know I was very much looking forward to it and very disappointed in it.
I bought the next three books as they were published, and put them on my bookshelves. I just could not garner up the interest, let alone the physical strength, to read such a gigantic tome as each one is.
Recently, I pulled out the 4th book, The Plains of Passage, and was surprised by two things: (1) it was published clear back in 1990, and it has been on my shelves ever since then! And (2) it is a signed first edition. It was quite a pleasure to get back into her writing and that time period.
Now, this is how I view her books. What I think she really set out to do was write a natural history of the period. They are really textbooks jazzed up to make them readable to the general public. I just flat out skip the long passages of lurid sex. I do not like to see, read about, or hear about sexual activities of OTHER couples. It feels like a dreadful intrusion to me, and really sets my nerve endings to jangling unpleasantly. And I agree that so many “firsts” and so many inventions on the part of that one woman ARE just plain silly. Admittedly, she does encounter many other ways of doings things and tools to do them with along the way during her very long journey. But again, I think the whole fictional account is just a long thread connecting the books and inserted for the purpose of making the learning process more palatable with a story line. And, frankly, I loved the learning process. I still have the last two books on hand, and perhaps will expire before finding the endurance to pick them up to read, but Jean Auel taught me just one awful lot about the ice age and the flora and fauna and so on. I like possessing some understanding of what this planet was like during that era.
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I have been reading the twitter hashtag "Why I stayed" amazing the ways women justify things. I also read the NYT account of the now wife of the football player. Thus far every time, he does something dreadful to her in public, he got engaged?? now married?? and always defends him, but I suspect that some day she is going to end up dreadfully injured..
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and all this the result of little girls being trained out of habit by adults for a life as a second class citizen so that she has not gloried in her value except as attached to a man and his light is like the sun and her only his reflection as the moon. I am thinking it is time we roll up our sleeves and look closely at the ways of thinking and habits that we are not maliciously holding but are adding to this sad state of affairs.
How often we delight in how cute a little girl and not how strong and self willed she is or if as a small child. she begs for something and we feel a click in our own body as we think it is not cute like a little boy doing the same thing, rather we consider it rude and un-lady-like. We shudder if we see a little girl grab a cookie where as a boy we may be annoyed but too often it is expected behavior. We need to start listing the ways we treat little girls differently because, until we know the differences we will all unconsciously continue setting a socially acceptable standard that allows women to value themselves less than a man.
This business taught in so many churches that men are the leaders and a family is a pyramid in its structure has got to stop - a couple is equal with different tasks - decisions are a team effort with each, husband and wife a valuable part of the team - it is the system used by successful companies like how Apple runs their company and they have not fallen into the depths of the devils workshop.
We cannot do much about changing the behavior of the clergy, rabies and ministers nor anyone else for that matter but we can look at the way we react to the behavior of girls and what is lady like and what is actually repression. I keep thinking I am beyond the old ways of admiring a girl child and I am thinking I just do not want to be painted with the brush of repressing girl children but actual I am not even aware of habits so ingrained I do not even see them. If any of you have examples of behavior we think is only for girls please list them - it will help - its either continue seeing little girls as subservient in their lady like behavior that is training them to look at themselves differently and less than men - not so much as less than boys it all seems to shift when the are in their mid teens. But their behavior and thinking only changes into the attitudes that were sealed into them as little girls.
And guys need to learn early how to accept failures - their response has been when experiencing a failure to get back in a stronger revenge mode or to give up - look at how they play a sport, a game or their learning style in school - they must beat whatever and whoever was the cause of their last 'humiliating' failure or they walk away - as adults they turn on those weaker that they can win and feel they have beaten which sometimes is literally beaten. But to accept life as winning some and loosing some is considered being a sissy. Do girls have to match this competitive win all attitude or can boys learn that life is not all winning and that loosing is not a personal humiliation. But most of all the old attitude of not taking out your feelings on others that is no longer a feature attitude in even movies much less on TV that has replaced so much parenting.
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Examples all around me...........my grandson was being teasingly held tightly by his mother, he began to hit out at her, she said "Don't hit mommie, mommie is a girl, girls are fragile." ....... I didn't handle it well, i EXPLODED, "OH NO!" Then i caught myself and said "we don't hit anybody!" But my DIL said "Oh yes." ....... I have a lot of work todo there. :)
Talking to a friend of my son's - a forty yr old, so again we have to train the next generation - who has 2 older sons and a 3 yr old dgt, i asked "is she different then the boys?" He said "Oh, yes! She rules the house, she's very bossy." I handled this one better. I said "let's think of that as assertive, or uses her leadership skills. " He immediately agreed with me, as did the woman sitting next to me who has two dgts and is a county prosecutor here in NJ.
The old habits ARE hard to break as Barb says. These young people were just repeating oft said comments about women, it just rolled out of their mouths.
Sigh........
Jean
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I think we women have to get into the habitual habit of calling this type of male a "BULLY MALE." If we can spread this, and get all women and all decent men to do it, we will finally be labeling them in a way in which they do not want to be labeled. AND we will be sparing the majority of men who do not resort to this type of behavior: domestic violence, incest, rape, etc., but who have, like ourselves, been brainwashed into believing that ANYthing and EVERYthing that goes on in the privacy of the family is none of our business.
All of the public reacted ONCE THEIR EYES BEHELD what went on in that closed elevator. And all of the public would react if they would only allow their inner eyes to imagine what they HEAR has happened to women, girls, children and babies. You know that old saying: "Seeing is believing."
Yes, there are a LOT of Bully Males who stand up and forcefully preach that a woman is subject to her husband. In many cultures, all females in the family are subject to all of the males in the family, and these males have the RIGHT to kill them with so-called "honor killings."
Violence against our sex has been an urgent craving of Bully Males since time began for our species, and they have taken great pains to carefully arrange and control societies so that this craving can be justified and they can safely expect to be able to satisfy their needs without incurring exposure within the community.
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I agree MaryPage - and the idea that some guys are bullies is a good description however, I do think once we universalize the problem we do not face our own power to do something - the old adage about lighting one candle and the only candle I see is becoming more aware of how insidiously we perpetrate the acceptance of old ways that keep little girls as fragile therefore, cute and the apple of her father's eye and anything less makes her a tom boy that is not the cute vision we admire for girls - there has to be a way for a girl to assert herself without appearing like a tom boy and without appearing as a manipulative, out for herself with no care for others, kind of girl/women.
We cannot change other cultures - we can be horrified - but that changes nothing - we cannot even change the so called moral leaders in this country but we can learn how to change our own skill at how we see and accept power in a girls child and how we react to those we meet who make comments that keep girl children in the age old mold of so called lady like behavior, as well as, how we urge little boys to accept a loss without instigating a sense of needing a revenge win.
There is a difference in taking the loss as a message to get better at whatever the area of the loss but that is different then simply getting better to tit for tat win over the now declared opponent. Is that not what the Sunni and Shia have been doing for centuries - and when you look at the history of wars in Europe this same attitude of tit for tat has been going back and forth hundreds of years. Here football and to some extent basketball seems to be rife with this competitive attitude that is not about getting personally better but only improving with a will to beat the team or guy who beat them.
Over and over we read how, usually in secret the strong abuse the weak - their abusive ways are supposed to increase the power of the already strong, who usually cannot own their own strength because they compare themselves to others who are yet stronger. There must be a way that revenge is taken away from competition because we know, men especially are driven by competition, and they have few skills to handle loosing.
So far, to get ahead, too many women have had to adapt to a man's competitive world which includes behavior that seems devoid of compassion and includes this revenge motive. It is not as visible but it is there. It is even showing up as girls have to show a guy who dumped them that they are more sexy. Even grown women are playing that game - and so to be able to stop the abuse my concern is not only how we unconsciously add to powerless women because of our built in bias for what we called Lady like behavior but also, that we look at losses in a way that does not feel weak and does not mean revenge. I am not sure I know what that looks like.
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We usually get Leonard Pitts, Jr.'s column in our Sunday paper, but it wasn't there today. Another gal posted this link to his column about the NFL over on Seniors & Friends. It's must reading.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/09/09/4338442/leonard-pitts-jr-as-if-we-didnt.html
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when you read some of the comments it opens our eyes to the fact we have a long way to go...
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I've been saying what the columnist said and am furious at tv channels that keep showing it. I am also suspicious of all these blustering guys....if 1 out of 3 women have been slapped, punched or killed, some of those guys must have been the actors.
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I realize how truly lucky I was as a child. I was a declared tomboy and my Dad and my Uncles encouraged it. I was brought up to believe I was strong and healthy and could and should do both boy and girls things.. I married a man who loved my independence and we were equals for our long marriage. Now both my sons have struggled with the protection gene, but realize finally that I can stand on my own two feet..
I encourage my granddaughter to regard herself as strong and vital..
I still do not pretend to understand Janay.. Is it the money?? or the prestige?? How sad.. and she has a daughter and she is probably teaching her the same behavior.
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All sorts of discussion on Huffington in relationship to the various articles about Domestic Violence so at least the issue is in the open - Picking up on MaryPage's sharing how they are all Bullies - It has been a few years ago now since my one grandson was the victim for years of Bullying in school and then when my daughter first started to teach she too was looking at programs that schools could use to address Bullying - it all died away because of the cost of the approved program and school budgets were being cut till within a few years even teacher salaries were on hold - but I wonder do any of you know the cost of a school approved program -
Along those lines a group of us have gotten together to buy and donating, we have started at the 6th grade level, programs about the Deer - sounds off the subject but most of the teachers are new to Austin and are not familiar with the wild life therefore, they have joined the many who want to irradiate the Deer and have all sorts of tall tales based in fear about the dangers of Deer - and so we thought at least if the two grade schools in this area had the program that is well produced by Texas A&M for kids so that it is interesting it would help to tamper the fear and now I am wondering if the cost of these programs about Bullying is something we could raise enough money to cover - the Deer program is just under $100 each and we have a total of two schools with 6 total 6th grade classes - eventually we want to get the one for High School but this is a start - who knows what we can do to influence kindness that we can only hope and pray kicks in when these children are adults.
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Hmm, school approved is probably the catch phrase, plus in Florida, because of all the required testing, they have no time for art, music, etc, things that are so necessary for the children to grow. baaa. this school testing really upsets me. I have a Asburgers grandson and tests are so impossible for him.
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From article by Kerry Washington
Financial abuse is a tactic often used by abusers to control and isolate their partners. It takes many forms: Abusers may drastically limit their victims' access to cash so they have no money of their own if they want to flee. They may sabotage their victims' ability to work, or pile up debt under their victims' names. Experts cite financial abuse as one of the top reasons why many victims are unable to escape abusive relationships.
"I think people just aren't as aware of financial abuse," Washington told HuffPost. "If a woman isn't even aware of the dynamics of financial abuse -- what it looks like, what it is -- she may not even know that that's part of the tools being used to control her and manipulate her and keep her trapped. When there is more information around it, people can begin to identify it and then get the help they need."
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I am glad there is a national dialogue going on about this; that can only be a healthy thing. The laws must be made stronger to protect women and children from the bullies; that's for sure. And yes, where the man has the upper hand financially, that can be a ball & chain in itself, which is precisely why every woman should complete her education and have a profession or trade or license or whatever, before she ever marries, which enables her to earn her own living and support her children in the event of any type of family set back.
But the public memory is catastrophically short, and the cultural mores are deeply stained into our human genes. Not just humans. The human fetus, for instance, and the chicken fetus look just alike for a while; and it strikes me that the ingrained pecking order in the poultry yard is impossible to erase. Well, of course, those living creatures do not go on to develop the brains we have, so there is hope for our kind.
I can remember my Bridge Club eons ago having a lively discussion about what was for just a matter of days a phenomenal front page story in The Washington Post about the wife of the second in command of the S.E.C. leaving him with her 5 children because she had a black eye and broken arm and so on and on. She had been suffering physical spousal abuse for years. She had no control over a penny of their income and no family to turn to. One of our number knew him, and the rest of us were scandalized because she thought it outrageous that this battered woman had fled and put their family in the NEWS and ruined his career! And Ladies, this was a lovely, charming and intelligent woman! But she was adamant that it was wrong of this woman who had endured years of such abuse to ruin her husband's reputation! The rest of us were speechless! Well, almost. We got over it.
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Yes, I agree that there have been several brief scandals about abused women who are married to prominent men over the years.. And the abuse takes so many forms. There should be an answer, but when you look at all those football wives, playing.. oh,, she loves him sooo much. I suspect she loves being married to a football star.
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After reading this link that was included in Kerry Washington's article it is startling to realize that not agreeing to equal pay is financial abuse just as years ago when a women was forbidden to work - the chicken or the egg - did the men learn this from society that has and still holds abusive tactics for women or is politics about the will of the people and men still hold a trump card so their tactics which are abusive hold sway.
Kerry Washington's link that includes a list of financial abuses - http://nnedv.org/resources/ejresources/about-financial-abuse.html
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And Republican women senators vote against equal pay for the 4th time.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/02/1954381/gop-senator-i-voted-against-equal-pay-for-women-because-we-have-enough-laws/
REALLY!?!
Dorothea Benton Frank's book "The Hurricane Sisters" is not one of her best stories, imo, but it is about how charming some abusers can be and how they can manipulate the reasons for their behaviors. I think so many of us have seen over and over again - in movies, in books, on tv, heard from our family and friends - how a woman must have a man, or there is something wrong with her, or something missing in her life, that putting up with, rather then forcibly saying "this is not happening" meets the greater need. I think if some men thought, would be told, there would be consequences, they would stop. But they have to be told at the first act of bullying, however it manifests it's self, that there will be consequences.
In Benton's book, a SC state senator, good-looking, charming, man-about-town, knows he can get away with it, no woman will ruin his career.
Jean
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They overlook and undervalue women without so much as a flicker of guilt; it is all par for the course on a daily basis, century after century after century.
You take the latest great Ken Burns series: The Roosevelts:
Do you know, that blankety-blank Burns is just as bad as the rest of 'em!
It burns me up that he chose to go on and on and on about Teddy Roosevelt urging all 4 of his sons to get into the war; and they did. And he details how they came out of it and the heroism of Quentin, who did not. We are even treated to a photograph of the dead pilot lying on the ground. Strong flashes of patriotism and grief pour through us.
But Theodore had another child. Yes, a child born of his marriage, a sibling to these 4 boys. And that child got to France in World War I ahead of all the rest of them, and worked tirelessly in a WAR HOSPITAL there as a nurse for the duration. Helped save many an American life, did SHE!
Google Ethel Roosevelt Derby's biography, and be amazed!
But oh, shoot! She was just a GIRL, and her service does not deserve even a passing mention. Girls don't matter. Girls don't count.
I despair.
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I knew about Alice, but Ethel?? not a word. Will look it up.
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Thank you MaryPage for that info about Ethel R D. I had never heard anything about her. Actually Burns hasn't mentioned much about Alice and TR's negative impact on her.
Yes, men's writing and documenting of history is very bellicose. I stopped watching the History Channel's "History of the World" because they were only talking about wars and conflicts of men, as though there was no arts, science, inventions, domestic life going on.
Jean
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http://feministing.com/2014/09/17/bartender-pens-awesome-open-letter-to-hedge-fund-bro-who-grabbed-her-ass/
I was just going to post this as "hoorah" to the woman who posted the letter and not comment..........until i read his delusional response! This is why we have to speak up assertively EVERY TIME, these oblivious guys just don't get it. "I'm not a sexist!" ...........oh, for god's sake, ask your mother/wife/dgt/woman friend if they consider that sexist! And then he admits he does it!?!?
Even though my husband is very much a supporter of equality, he argues with me sometimes about "how" to speak to these situations. I am never aggressive - name-calling, etc- but i have a strong voice and am assertive and clear in what i'm speaking about. Because of my strong, low pitched, sure voice, i have sometimes been told - always by men, by the way - that i'm intimidating. The nicest thing is that when it has happened in a group some woman has spoken up to say "I don't find Jean intimidating!" Thank you Sisters.
;D ;D
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When I was growing up, Alice was THE grand dame of Washington, D.C. Did you know that she got married in a blue wedding dress, at the White House, and the song Alice Blue Gown was written in honor of that, and that to this day that particular shade of blue is known as "Alice Blue?"
She was called the Second Washington Monument.
The Longworth Building at the Capitol was named for her husband.
Her daddy said, when he was President, that he could manage Alice or the country, but not both!
She had a needlepoint pillow that said: If you haven't got anything good to say about someone, come sit here by me!
I think I have that all right. All correct, that is to say. Anyway, right or wrong, that is the way I remember it, and you can check it out.
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Yes, i think you've got them all right!
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I found Alice fascinating and I remember reading that Teddy indulged her enormously. Her Mother died either at her birth or rapidly after and Teddy adored his first wife.
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I think I remember them advertising a segment in the series on WWII devoted to Rosie the Riveter? The discrimination she faced...her determination...but haven't caught when it'll be aired.
Interesting article:
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/09/181199-female-fighter-pilot-becomes-first-say-hey-isis-bombed-woman-nice-day/
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I Loved the small squib I read yesterday. UAR.. has a female jet pilot.. an arab who is involved in the bombing.Their very first female pilot.
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I thought that was really interesting -- an Arab woman pilot! Without a burka!
(from the United Arab Emirates)
I just heard the dumbest chatter on the ABC morning show. (I'd only tuned in to get the weather.) They were seriously asking whether Hillary Clinton would change her mind about running for president now that she was a grandmother!
Do you think they would ask that of a male candidate if he were a new grandfather?
Marj
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My sister just closed on a transfer of her site to The Society For the Study of Women Philosophers - here is the site with a nice kudo to my sister's work.
http://www.women-philosophers.com/
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Thank you Barbara, i will have to go to that page several times to read it all. Congrats to your sister.
Jean
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interesting.. will have to read some more.
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Good on your sister, Barbara! One biggie for our fair sex!
And no, never in this WORLD would they ask a new grandfather if he were going to retire to be a full time grandpapa! Never!
Double standard still flying high! Had hoped to see it conquered in my lifetime. What hubris I had!
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Yes, newspeople are very bad offenders in the male -female thing.
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Something to brighten the day! A woman of courage and grace: Ms. Yousafzai
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/malala-yousafzai-and-kailash-satyarthi-are-awarded-nobel-peace-prize/ar-BB8vrRT
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I am more interested in the man. He has worked for years against child slavery and in India that makes him hugely unpopular
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Have you noticed the Viagra commercial that has only a sexy blonde in a slinky sundress, walking barefoot on a beach and beach resort-type area? No man at all in the commercial, and it doesn't mention the name of the drug until it shows up at the very end. Sheeeeshhh!!!
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Ah the fantasies of males are with us always.
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I am more interested in the man. He has worked for years against child slavery and in India that makes him hugely unpopular
Absolutely! I never meant to take anything away from his courage and achievements; just noted that Ms. Yousafzai was shot in the head by the Taliban and courageously continues her work! Both are exemplary and well-deserving the Peace Prize!
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No, I understand,l I just felt that he was getting not the attention that he deserves for all those years of hard work and being isolated.
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I read the MOST amazing story in the October 13, 2014 issue of THE NEW YORKER. (The one showing a Mega Super Store to open soon on the cover.) The writer is Peter Hessler and he is writing a "Letter from Cairo." The subtitle is: "A neighborhood garbageman explains modern Egypt." And oh boy, does he ever! This is one of the most eye opener, incredible stories (and when I say "story" here, I mean true account) I have ever read. A bit shocking and surprising, too, but apparently quite real. It seems to place the change of regime, the deposing of Mubarak, on PIGS! Yep. Seems the Copts (Egyptian Christians) raise pigs, since no one else will in an Islamic country. The tale continues that these pigs ate up just one whole lot of organic waste. Murbarak's government decided to slaughter them all, in short get rid of them, and so they did, to make the Islamic Party happy. But the pigs weren't around to eat up the garbage, and Cairo began to stink. People got mad and started demonstrating, and you KNOW the rest of the story. Oh, it is a hoot to read THIS letter from Cairo! Try it and be amazed. Be very amazed!
But it also gives the poor, which a huge number of Egyptians are, and the uneducated, which a very large percentage are, point of view about women and sex. Now I have read whole books on the subject of genital mutilation, plus many, many magazine and newspaper articles. Most mention that this dreadful procedure ruins women's pleasure in the sex act, among other horrors, but this New Yorker article is the very first where I have heard men quoted as saying that is why they want the tradition to continue! The author is told they do not want women to go without the mutilation, because if they do they will CHASE AFTER OTHER MEN!
I thought that was their real reason!
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I received this from a friend by email yesterday. I have said for some time that we should be celebrating Margaret Sanger and Katherine McCormick days. What other strangers have had more impact on our personal lives? The comments are very interesting. I don 't quite get the guy who insists contraception is bad for women........but it's interesting that some people have that philosophy.
"Someone told me about a Fresh Air show they had heard about the birth control pill. I listened to the pod cast and it was truly a riveting story: “The Great Bluff That Led to a Magical Pill and a Sexual Revolution”:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/10/07/354103536/the-great-bluff-that-lead-to-a-magical-pill-and-a-sexual-revolution
"One amazing part was the involvement of a women that I had never heard of, but you all probably have. Just in case:
http://med.stanford.edu/diversity/about/mccormick.html
http://www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/katharine-mccormick-birth-control-history/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/peopleevents/p_mccormick.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_McCormick
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Would you believe that I saw a picture yesterday of an old enemy.. Yes, there was Phyllis Shafly.. good heavens, I thought like the wicked witch of the west, she had disappeared in a puff of smoke.
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I saw her, too, in harshly enameled action in old films shown in the PBS presentation MAKERS. This week they ran film number four (4) of six (6) in this series, and I took particular pains to watch last night because it was titled WOMEN IN WAR. What it did was give a history of women serving in all of our wars, and most particularly our latest history. Fascinating stuff, and every young American woman should have seen it. Of course, there was old Phyllis Schlafly ranting against the ERA as its passge would mean killing us all off! She is 90 years old now!
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The Makers series has been very good.
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I would say, after having read this article, that Phyllis may be losing it, but she's been saying similar idiotic things for decades........
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/phyllis-schlafly-obama-intentionally-bringing-ebola-make-america-more-africa
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Phyllis lost it and never found it again, many many years ago. What a silly woman.
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/appendixjournal-images/images/attachments/000/001/041/medium/punch_poster.jpg)
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:D :D :D :D :D
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??? ::) :'( ;D
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Love it!
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so who got the short straw for Africa.. Try the UN female embassador from the US and she just said on the air that she wasn't fworried and that she had a five year old.. time to worry lady.,
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She isn't worried about what, and it is time to worry about what?
If you mean Ebola, well, neither am I. We know how to contain and stop Ebola, and if the citizens of Africa can be educated that they have to give up their treasured traditions of how they caress and bury their dead in the name of the living, a challenge further, it seems to me, than trying to educate them not to cut away the genitals of little girls, and yet, despite huge setbacks progress IS being made and whole nations on that continent have declared female genital mutilation, or FGM (you can Google just those initials!) to be against their laws, well, I feel there is hope for containment in Africa, as well. Yes, whole countries in Africa have now been declared disease free. Remember when folks right here in our own country would not, could not, believe there were such things as germs that they could not see? And that these germs carried diseases and death? We have had to change our way of looking at things and of doing things, and eventually so will Africans. We will have no pandemic from Ebola.
My concern, given just a little knowledge from reading up on viruses, is about the mutated viruses coming down the road long after I am dead and gone. Unless the entire world of nations gets together and consistently puts money on research and education, a future pandemic from a virus form as yet unevolved, but as certain as death and taxes, WILL come to us.
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If we can 'contain and stop ebola' two nurses wouldn't have gotten infected - especially not being able to discover how. There is a great deal about this disease we still do not understand. Nigeria was declared 'ebola-free' and interestingly they closed their borders in their (now known to be successful) efforts to contain it. But illegal aliens are re-introducing diseases we have long controlled, including tuberculosis; and many of these communicable diseases are drug-resistant.
A woman of out-standing courage and intelligence:
http://nypost.com/2014/10/25/former-cbs-reporter-explains-how-the-liberal-media-protects-obama/
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I think this hysteria folks have decided they need over Ebola is crazy - if we had this much hysteria over women killed each year - not once in a nation's life time but each year - by abusive husbands and boyfriends I could understand being hysterical over two nurses having Ebola - there are EACH YEAR 1,500 women killed by husbands or boyfriends -
So where is the hysteria - where are the governors putting in quarantine abusive husbands - most get off and like it or not when we visit our local battered women's center we learn that most abusive husbands and boyfriends are cops who protect their own and wait outside the so called secret hidden battered women's centers that only the police are told where it is located so they, their brother cops use this information to snatch a wife who is going to visit her attorney or find a job so she can start her life alone.
When I see the kind of Ebola hysteria over 1500 women with governors over-riding the president trying to stop the epidemic of deaths then I will stop looking down my nose at the stupidity of being upset over 2 women in the entire history of this nation having contacted a disease that world wide has only killed less than 7 years of abuse victims in this nation never mind in the world. I've seen this nation go hysterical before but this takes the cake.
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I totally agree with you, Barbara. As for the two nurses in Dallas who became infected, one of the nursing staff appeared on television stating they had not had their faces and necks completely covered. Presbyterian Hospital has now upgraded their protocols to include this requirement. Those nurses did their best, and thank god one is now completely disease free; but she, also, said they had lacked training in Ebola.
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Even the hysteria over AIDS only took place after over 10,000 deaths then the same thing as now - no one then paid attention to real information but instead ran around like chickens with their heads cut off afraid to touch anyone with AIDS - now the hysteria starts with this time only 2 nurses - 1 man dead, 1 man arrived with Ebola and was cured and 1 man still being treated. That is it - that is all - and you cannot turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper or magazine without this hysteria as the headline.
Its time for adults to act like adults and for some to get online and take a science class as the New Yorker magazine points out "Fear of Ebola is Highest Among People Who Did Not Pay Attention During Math and Science Classes."
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Once upon a time, our forefathers were the foreign aliens who poured into this beautiful country and decimated the native population with measles and smallpox, among other things.
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The UN woman.. She has a five year old and I truly hope she stays far away from the infectious areas. I worry that there is a certain type of person who truly believes that they cannot catch anything.. I think the quarantine is not going to be a good idea, but on the other hand, I think that there is a certain amount of truth in not allowing them to use public transportation for 21 days. It is so very easy to go from feeling fine to having a fever, especially on long distance flights.
We are having a measles epidemic in the US, and it is certainly not immigrants, but people who have decided their child is way too delicate to have any of the childhood shots.. That drives me nuts..
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And then we started carefully screening immigrants, and putting them through a proper process to keep out communicable diseases, felons, etc. to protect the citizenry. Throwing open the borders to those convicted of rape, drug pushing, gang members, even murder - as well as those with communicable diseases - doesn't seem as though we've learned from the past.
I'm a nurse. The HIV crisis was a very different case. Even then we are paying a very high price for protecting the privacy of HIV infected individuals. And health care workers were unfairly (I believe) set at risk with the policy.
But ebola is different. While there is no cause for panic, there certainly is good cause for caution and common sense. Fears were only heightened when people/institutions we trusted were found unreliable; when the president says any hospital in the country can deal with it (they can't), when the CDC says proper protocols are in place (they weren't; and they differ between hospitals), people naturally wonder what else they are not being told. For instance, 5% of ebola cases may take up to 45 days to develop symptoms. Health care workers are scrambling to make ethical decisions of when/if to withhold treatment in the face of exposing workers to unwarranted danger.
It's easy to 'arm-chair' these decisions; for those not on the front lines, it seems superfluous perhaps. But people fighting to protect all workers, as well as providing the best treatment options, don't find it so. NY Bellvue Hospital has now admitted a five year old with symptoms. And the health care community is more concerned now that flu season is nearly upon us.
And when you find a woman with these credentials who, at great personal cost, is fighting for the truth to be told on any number of issues, I think she's earned the right to be heard:
http://nypost.com/2014/10/25/former-cbs-reporter-explains-how-the-liberal-media-protects-obama/
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Yes, and ordinary flu, the kinds we expect, cause thousands upon thousands of deaths right here in the U.S. every single year without fail. No panic in the streets or on the news broadcasts.
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I think they're concerned about the flu this year because the symptoms are so similar to ebola. But, at least in NY, there is usually a big push for flu vaccine each year with much publicity about it? :)
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I am sorry I still do not understand the stupidity of this fear to curtail any daily activity - there are worse things folks are dying from every day and we do not demand a curtailment to our life - if this is nothing but a political cartoon, yes, cartoon - then look at how much time went by before Reagan even initiated research into AIDS and only spoke, publicly acknowledging the epidemic when 36,058 Americans had been diagnosed with AIDS and 20,849 had died. The disease had spread to 113 countries, with more than 50,000 cases.
This epidemic there is hysteria after 5 cases in this nation that included 1 death - it is as if this disease is of some special horror - it is a disease --- and the cause of death to those who do not have proper water or health care -
We have many causes of death that come out of the blue - folks killing each other in this nation - not those sent abroad with the intent to be in battle but on the streets of this nation - what are we doing about that - filling up jails period - nothing to stop the epidemic
We have as I shared earlier women being killed - do you realize that 1500 women a year is over 4 A DAY - all we get is sometimes a story in the news but no Congressional panel to uncover why something has not been done
We have folks with TB not knowing and passing it along in the workplace, buses, subways, gas stations, grocery stores, churches, schools - so that last year there were over 530 deaths from TB with Latinos having a lower percentage than American Indians, Asians who have the highest percentage, Blacks and Pacific Islanders.
Common sense tells us that 1 death and 4 others who were subjected to the disease with 2 cures cannot come close to the number who die from things we do absolutely nothing about except hope that a few professionals will keep us safe. There is no hysteria, there is no public clamor for quarantine - as compared to this ridiculous concern that someone in our midst may have Ebola that can only be passed by touching their bodily fluid - we do not get this disease by breathing the same air - for heavens sake no one in the family of the man who died is ill.
All we have seen is how easy folks who should know better have been whipped up into a frenzy of fear that is uncalled for and reminds me of the picture book from my childhood of the story of Chicken Little and the sky falling.
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Ah, but I think that the Aid crisis was even stronger in fear. I remember living in new England and we were going out to the Cape.. Good friends would not go with us because we were going all the way out to the end and she was convinced that this was a hotbed for gays and she would get aids by being served by them. Hows that for silly, but she was genuinely scared.. I agree that women die each day from all sorts of horrid and unnecessary things, but this time, it seems to boil down to fear of unknown.. It does not help, but most of the nations involved cannot get a handle on it.. Nigeria did a wonderful job, but none of the others have. So fear gets overwhelming when it should not because many people do not understand why those nations cannot control it..
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I found this article. As I have found usually happens, the information posted on an agency website that becomes a source of negative publicity disappears (at least for awhile, as did the information given to teens on the Planned Parenthood site a bit ago where they were explaining sado-masochism as 'play'), but this is the article with the information found at the CDC site:
http://nypost.com/2014/10/29/cdc-admits-droplets-from-a-sneeze-could-spread-ebola/
www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/infections-spread-by-air-or-droplets.pdf
A follow-up on the Sharyl Attkisson story:
http://nypost.com/2014/10/27/ex-cbs-reporter-government-related-entity-bugged-my-computer/
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Tomorrow is one of my few ventures into the strictly female world. A fashion show and luncheon put on by my Womans club.. It is fun in that the food is good, the prizes wonderful and the models are all our members, so fat,thin, young,old, etc works. The political and town fathers who want to serve as our ushers and love getting dressed up in various getups and a lovely funny afternoon is enjoyed by all.. So sometimes being a older woman is fun.
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Have fun, Steph!
Megamom (you must have more than the 8 children and 13 grandchildren and soon to be 24 great grandchildren I have!) I think that article is deliberately nit picking to try to make readers doubt the truth telling of the CDC.
Obviously, now just stop and think about it: the "droplets" from a sneeze constitute BODILY FLUIDS. And the CDC has ALWAYS told us that bodily fluids are what it takes to transmit Ebola. Over and over and over again they have told us that. As for just a person walking around the office or school or your home or a shopping center and sneezing and giving you Ebola, that is BEYOND ridiculous! Why? Well, for one thing, Ebola is not like a common cold and is not at all likely to start out with a sneeze. You have to have a FEVER first. You develop a fever AND THEN you feel really sick all of a sudden like and you then, and ONLY then, begin to be a danger to others. You are not going to be just casually at work or out shopping; you are going to crash, going into a really high temperature and then a lot of other unpleasant stuff. Ebola is a disease in which you hemorrhage. Blood comes out of your nose, your ears, your mouth, your anus, your urethra and your penis or vagina. You must know all of this, being a nurse, so why on earth are you buying into articles such as this that are trying to be ever so clever and use words to place public doubt in our principal institutions furnishing health information and guidance? It just does not add up.
I think it is important that we all remember that that poor man who flew over here from Africa and died in Dallas DID NOT INFECT one single person on those planes. DID NOT! And he did not infect one single member of his family here or of his neighbors or ANYONE until after he entered the hospital and the two nurses got Ebola because they were not sufficiently covered to deal with his BODILY FLUIDS without incurring the infection. And both of those courageous women are now completely cured!.
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what a sad life to wake up in the morning and start hunting for articles and news bites to support your most scary nightmares or justify your right to be against anyone in office - and then share that info with others as if truth - sad sad sad...then of course someone in that cycle is not interested in truth they just want salacious opinions to support their anger over things they have no control over.
Just came back from voting and what a joy to wait in a line for nearly an hour while neighbors and grown schoolmates talked back and forth over the heads of some in the crowd but we could all smile because it was so about our town - both republicans and democrats with a few libertarians and the green party yet, all joshing and supporting and being interested in each other and their activities. Makes me aware how few are really deep into calling outrageous those they disagree with - the breeze was cooling us from the hot hot sun and the trees were rustling till we got inside and the AC kept us cool while the line of folks snaked around the stacks in the Library where most of our children spent hours sitting on the floor exploring the books.
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Barb, how nice to think there are places where voting is part of community. Our state is so divided, has been for awhile. In our town, there are still people who do not talk to others, people who do not frequent certain local businesses, because of the divisiveness caused by our governor almost 4 years ago. Voting seems much more subdued these last few years, at least in our town. We seem to have lost much of that camaraderie.
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With the exception of one man who knew everything ( just ask him), voting was a pleasure and all of the rest of the people were helpful charming and willing to be of service. I wrote down his name and intend after the election is over to write a letter to the person in charge of voting in our county. He truly should not be working the polls. With those opinions, he needs to be outside where the rest of the people who are anti a lot of things are.
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:)No offense intended! But to be informed it IS important to at least consider ALL sides, yes? And read ALL sides. I'm not anti anything (well..except anti-lying, cheating, lawlessness, etc...as we all are) - or angry :D . You don't know me. I do read from All sides and then wait and watch. I found the study referred to about illegals voting, which was well-done and documented; and I reserve judgment. And there is no doubt that officials cited in the other article advised illegals to vote as well as telling them how, when, where. Illegals have nothing to fear from officials who recognize their 'right' to vote. Even when a journalist (in the last election) signed in as Eric Holder the worker would have allowed him to vote: they deterred him from offering his ID, he was not the same ethnicity (obviously), and they still encouraged him to vote. They weren't trying to 'cheat', they didn't seem particularly partisan; they were just being helpful. It likely happens. Especially in large cities where there is a high degree of anonymity.
My personal experience with voting is very like yours, Barb. It is a joy and a pleasure. A good time to 'catch up' with old friends and neighbors. But the world is much larger than my small town.
We aren't naïve, are we? We aren't single-issue voters politicians think they can manipulate by pulling out the same old rhetoric at each election cycle, are we? The women I know and admire are free-thinkers. They aren't afraid to look at all sides of an issue. And they can discuss issues without fear or anger. Those are the women I admire and would promote.
Some read one side and somehow always seem surprised when reality doesn't match what they're told. Usually that reality has been explained by many people from a variety of backgrounds, though their view is often not promoted. That's all. Truth isn't what I make it - it is true whatever I think about it, eh?
And no nit-picking was necessary actually, as all these articles are available (though sometimes some effort may be require) as are the ones most pick to read. Just offering food for thought, nothing else. Most people seem pretty well-versed on one side so those articles don't seem as important to share.
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You missed my point entirely, Megamom. In the article you cite, which appeared in The New York Post, words are very carefully chosen so as to not be lying, but to fix into people's head the idea that the CDC had to be dragged kicking and screaming into "admitting," (the Post's chosen word of clever propaganda) that droplets from sneezing could carry Ebola. And the FACT is that the CDC never, ever said otherwise! The Post does not say that the CDC said otherwise, either; it IMPLYS that, so as to make every possible attempt to make the CDC look bad.
The New York Post is a well known sensationalist tabloid paper published by a foreign owner, Rupert Murdoch, who loves nothing so much as bringing down governments, by hook or by crook. His days in court have proved beyond reasonable doubt the "by crook" part.
This is not a matter of "reading all sides" of a subject. It is not a matter of differing opinions, though I must say that among the experts regarding Ebola there only seems to be ONE OPINION as to what it is and what it does. Unless one is determined there MUST be another opinion as to what this virus is and does, or another opinion as to what we are being told. But considering the contents of the SEVEN (7) books I have personally read about Ebola, and carefully listening to and reading up on the current news bulletins from authorized persons, it seems to me there has been and is no lack of full information given our public. The real facts are all out there for every single one of us to hear and see, and the New York Post is a very negative rabble rousing trouble maker of the sickest kind, and trying their utmost to weaken the United States of America.
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Mogamom do you understand that you have a greater fear of walking out your front door and being hit by lightening than you do have having any droplets from Ebola come near you much less get the disease or die from the disease. Approximately 50 people die every year in this nation from a lightening strike.
The outside chance of any of us or anyone in our town making contact with Ebola is simply political rhetoric to stir up fear - if we are going to make a difference it will not come out of fear - fear freezes action - the amount of courage it takes to take charge when fear is the motivator is simply to act for one specific action towards protection of what you already know or have. People living in fear with its accompanying anxiety do not create or develop new anything from, lines of thinking to new actions that bring new results or new products much less joy and love.
We are meant to develop our character that is the result of developing our virtues and fear is not in the list of virtues, nor is anxiety much less, pass along to others material that can tap into unnecessary caution which is a tactic to keep us anxious.
It has been a long time since we were in grade school where we learned all about virtues and how they are the cornerstone of our life and how we can benefit the life of others by growing our virtues - here is a link to a nice list of those virtues - it is a good reminder since we are all trying to encourage a better life that will mean being creative and not hanging onto the fears that are part of the political tool bag these days. - http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html
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I was playing around surfing the web a little bit ago and I clicked on granddaughter Jenny's worksite website for KCUR and while reading a number of articles offered ran into this take off on Casey At The Bat that we all know so well. It was penned by a local who is a former poet laureate of these United States:
"Right here in this favorite land the sun is shining bright,
A band is playing and some hearts are even light;
Men and women are cheering, and children are not dreary,
There is some joy in Kansas City - the Royals made the Series"
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Just another comment on some of the articles, including the voting articles - there were a lot of "coulds" and "might haves" and other terms that were inconclusive and in some cases definitely misleading. The same with numbers and percents.
Read this: "Using an enormous database of voters nationwide (32,800 from 2008, and 55,400 in 2012), the authors find that about one-quarter of the non-citizens who participated in the survey were registered to vote."
And then tell me, how many readers jumped to the conclusion that one-quarter of the database of voters were non-citizens? That particular article didn't report on the number of non-citizens in the survey, so it could have been 10, 100, 1000....nor does it report on how many actually voted.
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Oh lordy nlhome that is outragious to say - just trying to get those who are Latinos that are legal to vote is a trick - the lowest turnout is from the area of town where the Mexican population mostly lives - that is an outrageous statement -
Illegals have no clue how or what to vote for and they CERTAINLY would NOT come within a mile of any official site for fear of being picked up and sent back across the border -
Illegals do not go to hospitals or call the police for domestic violence or any other kind of violence - even legal immigrants will not report crimes - I have worked with Asians who have even been raped but will not report it for fear of the police -
So who ever is writting this stuff you are reading is trying to scare folks in a cruel and inhuman way - not only will Latinos not go for medical care for fear of being picked up or if legal, having to prove themselves, they prefer to use a Curanderismo
No way would any illegal risk going to a precinct voting center - they have no clue what precinct they are in and even if they are fluent enough speaking English, they do not know the language we take for granted that are the titles for governmental positions much less the language required to enter a voting book and fill out a voting form computerized or paper. The checks and balances just to vote are so stringent no one that is not registered could get past the voting judge without filling out paper work that makes a new voter or one who moved recently blanch.
Golly nlhome you need to get out more often and stop depending on this junk you are reading that is only meant to mislead you and scare you. Go volunteer to work the polls and learn who votes and the incredible process in order to vote. We may require two forms of ID but even if those states that use one form the checks to make sure you live where you say you live and are registered and you have either a registration card or a city utility bill in your name and recorded address or a drivers license would eliminate anyone who is still brave enough to risk running the gauntlet, knowing enough about how to vote and who the candidates are to get away with an illegal vote.
nlhome you need to be busy so you do not spend time on these crazy web sites feeding you this trash and making you believe it is true - go take a class at your local community collage or join a group that does things or start to knit or sew or garden or something - just pull some books down and start a reading challenge like all the books about presidents or even all the books about politics or newspaper reporting - something to get yourself busy rather than finding this stuff that is meant to scare you and then sharing it as if it were true.
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ER, uh, Barbara, I got the distinct impression that Nlhome does not believe in those articles. I may be mistaken, but my impression is that she is pointing out the weakness of their claims.
I spent some years as a poll worker, a Judge of Elections. I am too old now to work the 19 hour day necessary, but I do have total recall of how it all works, and I will tell ANYONE, as will any poll workers, that NO ILLEGALS vote. It is an out and out lie that they do. In order for that to occur, ALL of the poll workers and volunteer watchers from EVERY political party would have to be in on it; which is an obvious impossibility.
Immigrants who are citizens vote. We are ALL descended from immigrants.
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Thanks, MaryPage. I didn't think those remarks were directed at nlhome either.
" But considering the contents of the SEVEN (7) books I have personally read about Ebola."
What caused you to become so interested in this disease? Could you recommend a book? I just got info from the CDC website, and the article I mentioned.
Early detection is of primary importance (CDC site: Diagnosing Ebola in an person who has been infected for only a few days is difficult, because the early symptoms, such as fever, are nonspecific to Ebola infection and are seen often in patients with more commonly occurring diseases, such as malaria and typhoid fever), and the symptoms do mimic influenza (CDC site: It is usually not possible to determine whether a patient has seasonal influenza or Ebola infection based on symptoms alone. However, there are tests to detect seasonal influenza and Ebola infection).
Both nurses presented with low-grade fevers and tested positive (CDC site: "Two healthcare workers (the second and third U.S. confirmed Ebola cases) who provided care for the index patient have tested positive for Ebola. Both presented with low-grade fever and were isolated at Texas Presbyterian Hospital upon reporting symptoms.").
I'm not anxious at all - certainly not fearful; simply concerned. I think people associate 'sneezing' with it being air-born- but it's really a droplet. I certainly didn't think the CDC was hiding anything (what possible reason would they have for that?) - I just had not considered droplets, such as someone on a plane, etc. might be close enough to encounter. It made sense then that they identified all the passengers of both planes involved. The nurse in Main going for a bike ride, or driving her own car, doesn't sound to be a problem. But it is just common sense to stay out of public places for the 21 days, yes?
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Really sorry nlhome if I misunderstood your post - I am hearing such crazy things here of late so that I did think you were believing this outrageous statement - if you are sharing what you are reading feeling as outrageous over the claim I truly am sorry for mis-understanding the link - this elections and the issues of the day are bringing out so many duzies I am reeling seeing how folks are actually believing this stuff that I know if they used their head they would realize how preposterous are these reports It has become that we can hardly believe the news any longer it is so filled with wild statements.
Preparing for my surgery on Monday the nurse called yesterday and had to ask if I knew anyone who had recently returned from Africa - not Guinea or Liberia or Sierra Leon or Nigeria or Senegal or even West Africa, but of Africa - like saying the man who died in Dallas was from North America, which includes Canada and Mexico - can you believe a whole continent is in question, and not if I visited with or met someone who recently returned but, if I knew anyone from Africa - this is a hospital question by law - unbelievable.
I did not to go into it but I do know several folks from Africa, one of which, a young collage student who visited her father the summer before last and who I have not had a face to face with since last Christmas - of course part of the questioning about this exaggerated land mass is that most do not know one nation from another on the continent of Africa plus, they want to be sure they are protecting themselves from any law suit. Stupidity and lawyers will end up driving us all to a state of frozen inertia as we are required to report our history of contacts in parts of the world so far removed from the few poor nations subjected to this disease - I could even understand if they had asked if I had visited Dallas recently but did I know anyone from Africa - not did I know someone who had recently returned from Africa but did I know anyone from Africa - or even did I meet with anyone who flew in a plane recently - I am still shaking my head at such an inane question.
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Barb, but I suspect politically correct question.That way they could sneak up on the answer. I will say however that at a luncheon yesterday, I sat at a table and one of the women has a granddaughter who was going off on a mission for her church to Nigeria..The grandmother was so distressed and the whole table agreed, that this is plain foolishness and the church should know better. Nothing to do with Ebola, but everything to do with villages in remote areas. I agree the risk is way too great.
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Barb, sorry to hear about your upcoming surgery. I hope all goes well, and you can report back to us quickly.
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Barb, you did misconstrue. What I was pointing out is how numbers and words can be used to mislead and that we need to be discerning readers. That article was one I happened across on the Yahoo site, and comments were so hateful that I went back and reread it to see what I missed (I hadn't).
I agree that most immigrants are reluctant to get involved with government at all, at least in my area. I volunteer at a health facility that helps the uninsured, citizens and non-citizens. From what I understand, most of the non-citizens even shop at the local big box store after 10 p.m., to avoid people.
What I think is sad is those who have been here for many years without documentation, hard-working people who are hired by employers who take advantage of them. So much anger at those who come here illegally - so little anger at those who hire them illegally.
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MegaMom, the most up front reason I developed an interest in Ebola was that it was quite literally in my backyard the first time it ever showed up here in the States!
Now, if that is not enough to get a body interested, I don't know what is!
But still, many, many of my neighbors, let alone the rest of the nation, remained unmoved and uninterested.
You see, it was back in the late eighties, and monkeys brought Ebola to a lab in Reston, Virginia. I lived about 15 minutes away, and quite, quite frequently went to Reston. Oh My!
Well, we did not know about it right away. It was top, I mean TOP, secret until they contained it. You can read all about it in THE HOT ZONE by Richard Preston. I must warn you, every word of it is TRUE, and what is more, the one and only Stephen King pronounced it the scariest book he had ever read.
That being said, I and my more concerned fellow citizens rushed to buy the book, because prior to it some news stories did appear in the press, and we were anxious to get the full story. Well, the real thing grabbed my full attention and strong streak of curiosity, and I then got hold of every book and article I could. I then branched out from viruses to include bacteria and fungi. Hey, did you know they outnumber us as a species by a number so high as to be beyond ridiculous? And did you know that just ONE FUNGUS stretches out under many, many counties in Oregon? And there are many others like it in this world.
http://www.extremescience.com/biggest-living-thing.htm
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OH dear again, nlhome I am sorry I jumped to conclusions reading your post - sounds like you do have a handle on the patterns of living carried out by most undocumented - as to the issue of undocumented that is a ball of knots -
One issue is since the border is now so tight it is keeping many an undocumented here that traditionally they only came for a year or two - always went back for the holidays to bring the money earned back and if they needed more they returned - for a couple of hundred years when something families were purchasing or a community was building, they at first left these villages, that take a day to walk out of and found employment in towns mostly in northern Mexico. Gradually they learned there was more work available in the US that paid better so they did not have to be away from their families as long - so that became the pattern. These villages HAVE NO MONEY - it is as if the village is one big family -
There is no electricity, water is the nearby stream, they grow all their food, and if they need to buy a cow to increase the small herd they then need money or if they want to buy a piece of land or the community wants to build a place for kids to learn - the Mexican government does require collage students who are education majors to teach for a year in small communities that children from other nearby villages walk over an hour to attend classes. There is money needed to build a school room and the student/teacher lives with a local family. Those that did come to the US were the very ones who wanted their children to be educated to at least read.
They never could send their earnings back home because the money would be taken at the post office and it was often a trick getting home without being robbed but this system had someone coming here, doing work that we are not educated our kids to do anylonger and then they went back with maybe 3 or 4 times in the life each time coming here for two or maybe three years. Now, they leave behind their family and end up making a new family here because they cannot get back without a great deal of expense and risk trying to return. Young hard working men do not live as bachelors for 2 or 3 years - before there were girls who are still at the bars but the guys are stuck here and a weekly night out does not satisfy a guy used to a home-life.
The families left behind have no idea if the one who was seeking work in the US is alive or dead - most of these villages and tucked away homes have no phone service - they leave messages for each other by forming rocks in certain patterns on the side of these dirt roads much like the rock formations we all learned from the Scout handbook.
It has been 14 years now since last I was down but there are some who, in my case a guy from Lubbock sets up a hiking experience and part of the hike is we stop in a sizable town before to buy lots of beans and rice and pack a burro with our purchase and as we find a family where the small plot of corn and several young children are living with a mom we leave her bags of rice and beans - some live in caves that their family have lived in for hundreds of years, others in thatch roofed huts with a small fire contently going in the corner regardless it is the middle of summer as the source of light and for cooking - and so by trapping the one who came here for temporary work we are creating greater poverty, breaking up families which is creating greater need so that now more and more use their only escape once they are in their late teens and they too come adding to a greater number of undocumented full time immigrants living and working in the U.S.
The other side also is that we have taken away from our economy all the low priced crops - a farmer cannot grow things like onions or radishes without cheap labor so all those crops the Mexican farmhands learned how it is done because they were the labor and when the border became an issue they simply took their knowledge with them and now all those inexpensive crops are gown and shipped form Mexico adding to our cost because now there is shipping added to the produce - this has been the story of much of our fruit as well and seasonal flowers like all the now town after town of vacant greenhouses in northeast Texas that grew poinsettias - no inexpensive labor so they were abandoned and the western slopes of the Rockies in Colorado was where our seeds were grown. Again, no labor and those farmers gave up trying to inform the nation of what was happening so now it is a special catalog for a few small places that still sells natural seeds - it left the door wide open for Monsanto so that even our seed packets in the garden centers are Monsanto genetically modified seeds.
All I know is I do not want to be paying high property tax, as I do for schools tax to educate kids to plant onions, or even roof buildings in the high summer heat - our students may not all go on to college but I expect the high taxes coming from my pocket is providing an education for them to do more than basic field work or the grunt work required by a community to function and so, temporary labor to me takes care of that. Plus our kids are no longer being trained even at home how to do that kind of labor nor do we want them to be maids or part of the road crew as their adult job much less pay with tax dollars how to do those jobs.
Fences may fence out but in the process they fence in so that now we have a bulging immigration issue with more kids born here from undocumented workers and that population will continue to grow where as before, fewer families were created here in the U.S.
We cannot do anything now about the policies that brought us to this point - but I cannot see the benefit of splitting up families and then dealing with adults down the line who were traumatized as kids when one of their parents were taken. If the fence on the border was working I could see that as a solution but it is not working except as a deterrent to those who would periodically and yes, every Christmas return home.
As to the women left behind - her and her children's entire diet is dependent on that field of corn she grows with no running water therefore, she scoops up pails of water from the stream and carries them up to water the plants - she is taking care of kids, needing energy to cook and wash and take care of a house, all on her own with no electricity and no way to travel to a town that is at least 5 to more often over 10 miles away. This is not a random story but a typical story of nearly all rural Mexico. Then I look at my life sheesh...
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So I read and read and read, and recently have passed most of my books and old (yellowed and fragile) newspaper clippings on to the one of my 13 granddaughters who has a masters in Biology and works to try to clean up the Chesapeake Bay (the waters of which are now 70% "dead"). Naturally, she is the one with knowledge and interest.
I have not purchased and read any of the new books on the subject, but I have held on to two old ones that I am rereading before passing them on to Melissa. One is titled VIRUS HUNTER and is authored by C.J. Peters, who was at the time Chief of Special Pathogens at the Centers for Disease Control. He writes of THIRTY YEARS of battling hot viruses around the world. The other is a quite thick book, but well worth the reading. It is THE COMING PLAGUE by Laurie Garrett. Women who are caring daughters, wives, mothers and caretakers can learn a lot about what needs to be done to protect their families from reading this book.
Both books are full of Ebola information.
Other reasons I muse upon in wondering, due to your question, why I had such deep fascination early on are (1) my most basic passion is History, and in getting it right, and (2) I have always felt a strong, even overwhelming interest in the miniature. Nanotechnology both turns me on and scares me half to death. Quarks (and their names) are beyond amazing. How this universe is put together, and the fact that the very smallest objects in existence are what EVERYthing is made up of is information that has me in its thrall. As a tiny child, I coveted the tiny things: miniature cookware and pretend silver tea sets. As an adult, I beelined to museums all over Great Britain that held famous doll houses once owned by the impossibly rich.
What can I say? Yes, viruses, fungi and bacteria really grab me, and I want to know all I can as a lay person. I am most definitely NOT a Scientist.
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There is an absolutely top-notch article about the Ebola virus citing everything we need to know about it and about the CDC in regards to this threat to the public health in the November 3 issue of TIME magazine. The cover of this magazine sports a large mallet about to come down upon an apple. The wonderful article is entitled "12 Answers To Ebola's Hard Questions and is written by a whole slew of different people. I highly recommend this article, as it truly does answer every question.
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thanks MaryPage you sure know the history of Ebola and can find the best resources for us.
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Reston,, did not realize you lived that close to the situation.. Wow.. Oh please let the election be over. Our TV's in Florida are one right after another. two Governors fighting over one spot and both of them,, not suited for the job.. Ugh.
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I agree, Steph, let the election be over. The more ads the candidates and their supporters/funders run, the less qualified any of them seem. Good thing I voted early - I can understand why many people don't vote - if we take those ads at face value, why bother?
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What really irritated me about this election on the local level, is that my mailbox has been stuffed every day with huge posters making it really difficult to find my regular mail. I got 4 of these posters in one day from the same candidate.. I told her supporter who came around asking for votes, that if this happened in the next election, I was going to take these dozens and dozens of her posters and deposit them on her front porch!
Marj
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I'm looking forward to tomorrow and the end to the mailings, the endless telephone calls and survey calls and the back to back to back TV ads.
Enough already!
jane, who already did "early voting"...ie, absentee ballot at the County Auditor's office.
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In the October 20, 2014 issue of THE NEW YORKER the very first article in The Talk of The Town on page 29 is about the Fear Equation re Ebola and the history we have experienced as a nation regarding previous threats of infection. The front cover of this magazine is of stacks and stacks and stacks of brown books.
This article reminds us of the SARS scare, the HIV hysteria, and hey, only back in 2009 we had the H1N1 flu; remember that? Sixty (60) MILLION Americans came down with that last, and more than TWELVE (12) THOUSAND of those died. Each of these viruses is different from the other, but Ebola is A LOT harder to contract than these others. We forget. We forget so soon. And we listen more to the voices of fright, who have absolutely no experience regarding the disease of the day, than we do to the experts handling the situation of the moment.
Money flows only with the public perception of matters; an unfortunate and universal truth. Here is a quote to ponder: "We could have pushed the development of a synthetic Ebola vaccine a decade ago. We had the skills, but we CHOSE not to pursue it. Why? Because we weren't the people getting sick."
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That is a sad and haunting statement. Now with the world they way it is and travel.. all diseases are universal and we need to concentrate on finding fixes for all, whether it is Africa, Asia Europe or North America..
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Well, exactly!
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One of the absolutely terrifying viruses in this world started RIGHT HERE in these United States, and we forget that, too. Hanta Virus. Remember HANTA? You are perfectly well one day and dead the next, with your lungs weighing a ton from the fluids that build up in there. Started in the Four Corners area, in New Mexico. Came from rodents. Ordinary mice. Check it out.
There is a most excellent Feature article in the October 27, 2014 issue of The New Yorker. This one is entitled THE EBOLA WARS and is written by Richard Preston, who wrote THE HOT ZONE 20 years ago. Can you tell I am catching up with my New Yorkers?
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I remember Hanta and it seems to have disappeared, although I think it may still be somewhat of a problem in parts of the cave area.
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Another killer right here in the U.S. is the flu virus. It kills over 20,000 people each year. At least this disease can be stopped be vaccination. I had the first one, think it was called the Hong Kong flu, and it was awful, so I never neglect getting a flu shot.
Marj
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Yes, and we are in MUCH more danger from the West Nile virus than we are from Ebola. Also, we have the Avian, or bird flu. And then there is this new flu that is killing children. Why in the WORLD we are going ape over Ebola, I have no idea. But there was a letter to the editor of our local newspaper Monday night that I am surprised and alarmed that they printed, because it seems to me that kind of thinking is not only insane, but it is dangerous because of the people who would believe it. The writer told everyone they should vote against the Democrats because Obama is to blame for bringing Ebola here and millions of us are due to die because he won't do anything about immigration, but the Republicans will stop everyone from coming here.
Can you believe it? I am truly dumbfounded.
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I am rereading VIRUS HUNTER, Thirty Years of Battling Hot Viruses Around The World by Dr. C.J. Peters, and was vastly amused, in a grim sort of way, at the following: in 1839 (yes, EIGHTEEN thirty-nine!) the surgeon general of the Texan army described the yellow fever outbreak in Galveston thusly: "The efforts of citizens were paralyzed by the absurd denial of a few who feared their pecuniary interests would be damaged by a knowledge of the existence of yellow fever among us, aided by the gross ignorance of others, who in their pointless hostility to the name (mention) of yellow fever, declared the epidemic to be the Plague. They were, however, most signally rebuked by this disease stamping almost every fatal case with its unequivocal seal of black (blood) vomit."
I had to stop and think about the fact that in 1839 there was no widespread communication whatsoever. No television, no radio, no electricity, no telephone. Only newspapers, magazines and word of mouth. Now we have all of these wonderful devices and more, yet we are exhibiting the same degree of vast ignorance. Don't you just LOVE the different way of writing, thinking and speaking the English language they used back then?
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What an absolutely fascinating discussion here! MaryPage, what an incredible personal experience! I certainly will look into the Time mag article. I am interested in this disease as a nurse.
I'm sorry for all the discomfort caused over the NY Post. I've lived in NY my whole life and, of course, I know it is - at best - full of hyperbole. You certainly do have to "tone it down" and ignore the exaggeration and inflammatory verbage, which is why I put it with the cdc site. But my computer opens to MSN and they offered this Reuter article in which the book you recommended (THE HOT ZONE by Richard Preston) was mentioned:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-scientists-say-uncertainties-loom-about-ebolas-transmission-other-key-facts/ar-BBcPy9B?ocid=DELLDHP
It really discussed some of the issues brought up on the /cdc site; e.g. studies done have so few subjects that it is difficult to make generalizations.
But I think this is awesome news! Imagine if HIV could be essentially eradicated!
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-scientists-say-uncertainties-loom-about-ebolas-transmission-other-key-facts/ar-BBcPy9B?ocid=DELLDHP
And I agree with you that there are many more diseases and conditions that deserve close attention. The entervirus that has killed 4 children and paralyzed about 400 others is one such disease.
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Megamom, are you aware that you gave us the same site twice, rather than giving us two sites?
Now, again I find fault with this type of reporting, and I will lay out my argument. First, let me explain that reporting is a field I am very familiar with, as I started out my early career as a Journalist and left that field for another in order to best meet the needs of my growing family. My second husband (34 years of marriage until he died) was a professional Journalist. It is a world I feel I belong in and have every innate gut feeling for, albeit I wound up retiring from Accounting. My soul? In my soul I am a History teacher.
Alright; this last article: the writer is trying hard to pen a provocative article that will get people to talking and engender lots of feedback and make the editors happy and bring about pay raises and promotions and give the reporter A NAME. So once again, the effort is to implant doubts about the scientific/medical community and its knowledge of and ability to deal with the implicit and possibly unbelievably ghastly outcome of a surging pandemic that will kill millions upon millions of people. "Uncertainties" is the featured word.
Now, this is YOUR world of expertise they are describing. And you know, as I know, that no scientist in his or her right mind is going to answer ANY reporters questions with absolutes, because Science does not deal in absolutes. We are taught everything that Science has discovered THUS FAR, and we can depend upon almost every bit of this carefully garnered information. But Scientists know right up front that a lot of things change OVER TIME, and that we are always learning new things.
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For instance, when I was taking 7th and 8th grade Science, it was an absolute that the answer on any examination to the question: "What is the smallest particle of matter which cannot be divided into smaller pieces" (or a similarly worded question) was: TA DA! THE ATOM!
You pass, Missy!
But in the summertime between my 10th and my 11th year of school, that answer became totally wrong and the World was drastically changed. Was this due to Science being negligent in some manner? Absolutely not. Even Einstein thought it COULD NOT be done! Yet Scientists here in the U.S. believed there was a chance this was not the right answer, and they studied the matter and gave us the Atom Bomb and ended World War II.
That is the way Science goes: always seeking more and better answers; always trying its very, very best to know How things work. And they do this, they ALL do this, for the betterment of mankind, and not for the purpose of making a name for themselves or getting a raise. They DO compete rather desperately for the small supply of funds dedicated to the furtherance of such knowledge.
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If you read the books written about the history of viruses as discovered by the medical experts from the very beginning, you will find some things that are quite familiar and others that are brand new and guaranteed to give you a tremendous number of brand new thoughts and considerations. One of the things most familiar to all of us who have had the advantage of free public High Schools here in the States is the story of the Plague killing off from a third to a half of the citizens of our mother countries in Europe, and how it was eventually traced to rats that came off of ships and carried fleas that carried the virus. But the frightened people put it down to all manner of superstitious nonsense, and would not heed, for the most part, the advice given by the experts of those days that the sick be quarantined from the rest of the populace! Millions, literally, died because their BELIEFS trumped the Scientists. Scientists were then, as they are still in many minds, Bogey Men who made ridiculous claims to knowing impossible facts and should be run out of town, if not outright killed.
Well, these types of thought are still all pervasive. Read the books, and find out what sort of road blocks to progress are still being thrown up. Religious traditions are the worst! All those who die from Ebola, for instance, really should, in the name of Public Health, be cremated. But people actually rebel and riot and kill health workers in order to gain access to their beloved dead! They do! Right now, right here in 2014!
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In the New Yorker article you can read about how they were trying to find the SOURCE of an outbreak of Ebola in Sierra Leone in Africa. They learned this: one of the very first to come in and be diagnosed with this disease was a woman who had recently traveled to Guinea to a funeral for a Faith Healer. This Faith Healer had tried to CURE a number of Ebola patients there in Guinea, and those attempts included close hands-on rites. The Faith Healer came down with Ebola and died. So the virus team checked out the other contacts at this same funeral, and found TWELVE (12) more Ebola victims, all women! These lived in a number of different places, but they had all washed and hugged and kissed and patted the dead body of the Faith Healer in the traditional and long-practiced way of the population there.
Yes, they KNOW NOW that Ebola can only be spread by contact with bodily liquids from those ill from this virus. This is, as of this writing, an absolute. But they also know that viruses mutate, and that everything is SUBJECT TO CHANGE. And so they will not answer reporters questions with absolutes. IMHO reporters should both arm themselves with Full Knowledge of the subject they are writing about AND stop writing provocative, trouble insinuating articles. The dedicated experts and medical workers going out into ground zero to battle this virus deserve all the protection from public fury our Media can possibly offer them. And yes, some of them have been deliberately murdered by terribly frightened and totally ignorant people. This is all there in the books and articles.
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:)Oh..oh..ohhh! So sorry about that! It isn't at the msn site now, but this appeared to be the same, albeit somewhat shorter. I'll look for the original:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/spontaneously-cured-men-hiv-key-beat-virus-article-1.2000006
Of course they are quick to say it's all a very brand new approach, but they're hopeful.
A college science course must be taken within five years of completing your degree in some fields. Of course, they used to say that knowledge doubles every five years - its actually sooner now, I think - but your science courses have to be taken within five years to be transferred - or they have to be re-taken. I had the rare privilege of working with a young woman taking cell biology and anatomy and physiology at a local college - I even compared her texts to those I had from my nursing courses. Indeed, much had been learned, yet nothing I learned was 'wrong' - just more completely and thoroughly explained; we often knew certain things were there or happened in a certain way, though we often did not know why.
Of course these deceased should be cremated. and of course, there are impediments to implementing the best treatment/containment methods we now know.
My grandmother used to say, "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." I assure you that I look twice as carefully at 'news' that I know follows my biases, so I'm not blind-sided later!
But by the logic you lay out in your first post, no one could read anything and trust anything they are reading. You trust the information you read in the books you recommended and in the Times article, I'm assuming. The research cited at the CDC site is cautious about their results and the degree to which their conclusions can be generalized because the samples are so small. That is a proper response. And their findings - with their qualifying statements - do not seem to be at odds with this article.
Are you thinking that I have no experience with viruses? Or of proper scientific methodology in research? I've taken courses in research (including one on 'How to Lie With Statistics') and had to complete an original piece of research for my master's degree. Do you think I am not familiar with difficulties - even in this country - of getting people to follow medical advice? (That's actually why I was skeptical of the Affordable Care Act, which seemed to start with the assumption that everyone would love to get good health care but just couldn't afford it; a year in Public Health Nursing would quickly help someone find the error in that assumption!).
At any rate...
I really do hope you all have a great day!! there is so much good happening out here! :)
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Nothing I have written is meant to infer that you do not have knowledge of viruses, Megamom, or knowledge of people's resistance to medical advice. In fact, I tried hard to say that you DO know. It is the very fascinating HISTORY of the expert virus hunters experiences that we have to go to those very highly specialized books to find out about, as most of this information is simply not available elsewhere, and it is not written into the medical textbooks and required knowledge in any courses that I have heard about.
And I am not, perish the thought, attempting to say that reporters should not report the news. What I AM saying is that when it comes to all important public medical information they should be careful to allow the medical experts to give the information precisely as they think it best to do, and not write rabble rousing articles that pose frivolous questions about the sagacity of those experts.
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In the November 24, 2014 issue of THE NEW YORKER on page 18 in a letter to the magazine a woman named Mary Lou Singleton of Albuquerque, New Mexico writes:
"at what point does a woman cease to be a human being and become a state-regulated incubator?"
I'm with YOU, Mary Lou!
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I hope everyone on Seniorlearn has a wonderful day for Thanksgiving.. Lots of food, family and laughter ( I prize laughter over almost anything)
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Thank you, Steph. May you have laughter.
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Daisy is making sure that I laugh. I get the feeling that under the very tentative little girl lurks a determined Queen of the universe Corgi.
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Did you know about the Bocha Posh?
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/09/the-underground-girls-of-kabul/379762/
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Great, Barb!
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Love it Barb.
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We made the last Santa Claus run to the post office yesterday afternoon. Chip got my miniature tree out for me and set it up and pulled down the branches, etc. I have the rest of the house decorated, and now have only the tree to do. It is fun playing Christmas CDs on the Bose and answering the door to UPS and FedEx and the postman, all delivering packages. I still feel a terrible pull to be back in Grandma's house in Stephens City, Virginia with Grandma and Marshall and Buster. Funny how the mind and the heart combine to jump right over the 70 years since last I saw Christmas arrive there, shoving 3 husbands and all the subsequent children and grandchildren aside like so much detritus. Is it those beloved figures from childhood who are ranked first in adoration, or is it merely that they appeared first in the line of those loved? Does the aging mind yearn to be a child again?
I tend to believe memory banks return most often to our roots; to a time when we were well protected and without responsibility. Well, okay, I did have to dust the parlor, and, in season, hose down the front porch. But not a speck of need to see to the happiness & well being of another person. Deeply as I loved my home there, and indelibly as I cherish that family circle, the Love of My Life is who I would want to spend an eternity with, and we had lovely Christmases together. Yet there it goes: the yearning ache to be able to recreate, even if just for a moment, that place in that time and wish them a Merry Christmas and babble to them of this huge love raring to come out from my persona and mark them indelibly as my own.
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MaryPage, you just answered a question of mine.. I yearn now to return to my youth..To be with my parents and cousin, grandpa and brother in our bungalow.. Like you, I had a wonderful marriage, have two wonderful sons, daughter in laws and grandchildren, but when I dream, it is of being a teen back in Delaware. Surrounded by friends in a tiny little town, where everyone knew exactly who I was and who my parents were. Memories are funny that way.
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Yes! Yes! Stephens City was like that back in the day. Population 438, as I recall.
I am very upset this morning after reading a piece on something that was brand new news to me! Urgh!
Did you know that MILLIONS OF GIRLS around this world have NO birth certificate? That they are never registered at birth, being of no significance? Over 230 million, at least, is the claim. In many, many, many countries. Without a birth certificate, you are not a true member of society. You cannot attend school, get a job, have access to health care and any social services that might otherwise be available. OMG!
No, I never knew that. How insidious! Urgh!
A bill has been introduced in our congress, but, knowing them, it may well never be passed:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3398
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I honestly thought or think that if you are born in a hospital, there is not wanting or not wanting. The birth certificate is the law.. Are these home births?? or not in the US
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I think it actually happens here in the U.S., Steph, but is very rare. However, laws or no, it is quite prevalent in third world countries all around this planet. The result is virtual slaves of females. Illiterate, without any encouragement to develop talents or trades, considered worthless, not legally in existence. Where there are laws, countries must be shaken up to enforce those laws. And where no attention has been paid to the problem, laws must be passed with the requirement that measures be ALSO put into law that will force compliance.
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I know that some of the cults here did not encourage birth certificates until they found out they needed them to get welfare money.
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Oh Barb, I do love it..
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:D :D :D
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Fabulous!
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I do want to say that SeniorLearn brings me joy and makes me think and gives me so many many friends, that I have never met. I feel lucky to have found Senior Net all those years ago and have kept it up through Senior Learn.. We really should think of a meet up again this year. We seem to have stopped doing it.
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It's certainly been our pleasure to meet you, Steph, and others we've met in person from SeniorLearn and Seniors & Friends.
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MaryZ, I loved meeting you and your husband. We had a truly wonderful day.. Some of the widows at Country Meadows went up to Nantahala in September and had a lovely festive lunch on the open porch. Our waiter was a hoot..
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I started with SeniorNet in 1999, and have enjoyed a number of Bashes. In the years following, a great many of my dearest cybernet and bash friends have died; too many, actually. Those first circles are full of holes, but I remember the smiling faces with great joy. Even had a mini, mini bash here in Annapolis one fine day years ago.
Now I do not travel. At all. I stick right here in town with very small jaunts, and go over the bay to one daughter's home to do some bookkeeping. I get driven everywhere now.
Those airports are just too strenuous a job of work for this old body. Do you know, I can remember driving to the airport, waltzing in and buying my ticket, walking out the back door and across a bit of tarmac to climb a few steps into the waiting plane? I swear. Eastern Airlines. Eddie Rickenbacker. Stewards all in white: no stewardesses yet. A lovely, happy adventure.
No oomph left in me. No energy for fuss and bother. Have to love you each and all from a distance. But DO get together, and then tell all about it so I may have vicarious Joy.
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Ditto to MaryPage's comments of present day travel. I never was a big traveler and then i married a man who is not fond of sight-seeing, so our travels have all been on the east coast. I always wished i could just be picked up at home and then ZAP be put down someplace else. There are many things in the world i'd love to see, but don't enjoy getting there. So i love hearing about all your travels.
Jean
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Trains are still my favorite way of travel. I get a compartment and love every moment of it, just wish they would let me take my corgi with me.
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One more reason to stay away from new chemicals.............bring back the vinegar bottle!
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/puberty-beginning-earlier-girls-so-what-can-parents-do-180953738/?utm_source=smithsoniantopic&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20150104&spMailingID=21921377&spUserID=NzQwNDUzNjY5NzES1&spJobID=480229148&spReportId=NDgwMjI5MTQ4S0
And, i don't know if they will repeat it, but there was an excellent interview with Gena Davis on Aljazeera America. She has an institute that documents how many girls/women are portrayed in the media, particularly children's media, as well as how sexualized they are. Children's and G-rated movies have as much lack of clothing and sexualizing as R-rated movies! She suggests two simple rules to start to change the situation: before casting, make 50% of the names of characters female names (most of the time it doesn't make a difference in the story, but sets the casting director thinking in the right direction); write in the casting directions that 1/2 of the people in crowd scenes should be female (only 17% at the moment).
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghancasserly/2012/12/06/geena-davis-and-google-gender-bias-in-media-girls-stem/
Jean
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mark
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Steph, trains are MY favorite means of travel, as well! Adore them.
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I love trains, have been all over the world in them and truly love the feeling of isolation and yet people when you want them..
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From an Erma Bombeck column of the 1990s.............actually Mr P is very competent at 3 of the 4........i'll let u guess which one is verboten.....:)
He also detrimmed the tree one year, but when i went to trim the tree the next year, the lights were on the BOTTOM of the boxes and i had to remove all the other stuff to get to them! Never again. ;D
Next to the presidency, detrimming a tree has to be the loneliest job in the world. It has fallen to women for centuries and is considered a skill only they can do, like replacing the roll on the toilet tissue spindle, painting baseboards, holding a wet washcloth for a child who is throwing up or taking out a splinter with a needle
Jean
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I'm reminded of Frances Weaver's comment in her book "Girls With The Grandmother Faces." Writing about her long and happy marriage, she said, "...although there were days when the best I could say about him was 'He married well'". :D
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I've been using more and more vinegar - the dishes are lovely when I throw in a toss from a bottle of vinegar - if you do not use it washing dishes please try - just lovely - then I am using a combo of Borax, Washing Soda and vinegar to wash my clothes unless really really soiled then I add a couple of tablespoons of detergent - a box of detergent lasts me over a year now.
Of course we always used vinegar poured over baking soda then hot hot water with crumpled up pieces of aluminum foil to soak and then scrub with the aluminum foil the silver for holiday meals. Does a great job without all the cost of store bought polishes.
And I cannot sing loud enough the praises of cocoanut oil - in the cold weather it is hard and white like most creams - I hated the crepe paper look that was my face and arms - well slathering on the cocoanut oil several times a day and before bed in 4 weeks last year ALL the crepe paper look was gone from my face - yes, a few wrinkles but even the wrinkle between my eyes was gone - and it took about 5 months for my forearm to have similar results - did not try for my whole arm just the part that is typically not covered with a blouse or shirt.
After I learned the cocoanut oil was an antiseptic when I have a stuffed up nose, coming down with either an allergy attack or worse, using qui tips I pack it up into my nose and voila - in less than 10 minutes all the infection etc. comes and then with a couple of blows I can breathe, feeling great.
Crazy as it seems I polished, so there is no residue, the keys on the piano - wonderful - no slipping or sliding but with some protection, gleaming white with no yellowing and the keys feel better when I play - I am cleaning with it and using it where ever I would normally use an antiseptic cream - there is only one furniture polish that I think does a better job and that is The Natchez Solution - for awhile now, I pick up vinegar by the gallon and the cheapest cooking cocoanut oil available - it is all the same - there is no special anything to warrant paying extra in the beauty section or to pay extra because it reads organic - it is all from cocoanuts grown on trees.
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Cannot imagine stuffing anything up my nose, but you have interested me, so I have it on my shopping list.
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Steph if the nose infection has only started I can put the cocoanut cream on my middle or index finger and go up high into my nostril and actually feel a sore spot that I put more cream on - I know this sounds so medical but anything to not have to take even over the counter meds which send my blood pressure higher and then there is that to deal with since the Blood Pressure med affects my lungs and on and on it goes.
Another trick - this past summer when the cocoanut oil was in its oil state - the jar I keep near my bathroom sink and use on my face each morning and night since that first bout the year before of using it all day long - anyhow I had a bottle of liquid vit E and added it to the cocoanut oil so that when it hardened in the colder temp is is mixed together as one - not sure if I notice any difference but so mach skin info says Vit E and C - well I do know that Vit C dissipates quickly in the air so there was no sense in attempting to add it and adding the scrapings from the skin of an orange or lemon affects the scent but again, the Vit C is gone in minutes.
I think the thing that I like most, other than it works is that there is no greasy after - while visiting my daughter's she arranged for us to both get a message and I brought the cocoanut oil asking the gal to use it - no awful sweet smell and no stained clothes from the oil they typically use plus, I knew the antiseptic nature of the cocoanut oil/cream, it is winter so it is cream, made me feel less vulnerable to anything I may have picked up flying - so often I come down with something being cooped up on a plane and I finally learned to bring antiseptic wipes with me for the plane arm, back and top of tray and of course when using the WC. It was one thing coming down with something when I was even in my early 70s but now, the chain reaction to drugs, I want to do everything I can so as not to have to take any.
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I am interested because this last summer, when I came down with what was possibly an allergy, nothing I tried worked and I felt horrid for almost two months, so I am now willing to try alternative things.. My blood pressure stays under good control with my combination of drugs, but it took years before it did.
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Interesting the Oscar nominees were announced and already the media is a buzz with the lack of female directors included and movies either written by or directed by a female - this so called recent 'war' on women sure is becoming pervasive isn't it.
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Maybe what the women directors did was not quite what they wanted. After all it is voting by the academy that determines this.
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I really think in cases like awards, whether or not women or people of color are included or excluded in any given year depends for the most part upon individual tastes regarding what is before them to pick and choose from, AND, don't forget, WHAT has been created and offered up. While I may well not personally agree with some of the Academy's or the Hollywood Foreign Press Association's or any other entity's choices as to excellence, and Oh Boy, do I NOT!, and while there is no doubt politicking galore going on in restaurants and hotel suites, and who knows where else, I can't find it necessary to detect a bias against women or people of color in this area. My beef is the lack of taste: the ghastly language full of four letter words and insulting words for the female sex and the functions thereof, rude manners towards all others, gross violence, ugly nudity and panting sex. And the worst of it may well be that they are putting these things in HISTORICAL movies now! You know, and I know, full well that this was NOT the norm back in the thirties and forties and fifties. No matter what they claim, even the men, for crying out loud, did not use those manners and that language in the locker rooms of America! It was a much, much politer society, albeit also a much more prejudiced one. I am over the moon that this generation has deleted the prejudice, but appalled they have taken it for granted that we and our contemporaries used the F word in our THOUGHTS, let alone our language. Back in the day, I thought such speaking belonged only to the most uneducated, dirt poor, slum bred ranks of society, and I would have called you a flat out liar if you had told me that trashy talk would rise upwards through our many levels of civilization until our finest art forms are suffused with it! Yes, TASTE is my beef, and not, in this area, prejudice.
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I agree MaryPage. Also take note that the only woman director who has won any of the big awards directed a shoot-em-up/war/spy movie. I think i saw that the "academy" is 90something % white and 70something % male. So, no non-action film is going to win and we seem to have more and more of those. I haven't seen any of those for decades!!!
So movies about women with chronic pain/depression (Jennifer Anniston), or a woman walking the Pacific Coastal Trail ( Wild, Reese Wetherspoon) or a movie about issues being discussed (Selma) aren't going to be nominated as great movies.
Jean
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Yes, the academy is all of movie making and that skews it male and white..
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I think the question of the day is going to be: Will it be Republican women who finally put a stop to Republican men trying to make it the law of the land that our government controls the uteruses of its female citizenry?
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Hahaahaaa! Truth be know, the government now owns every aspect of everyone's health, eh? and make us pay for the privilege. :)
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How is that so? What you aver is not at all clear to me.
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If you are referring to Medicare, I for one am glad, but they really do not own my care, I own my care. I am always glad when they pay things, but if they don't and I and my doctor feel it is necessary, I pay for it.;
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Just exactly the way I feel, Steph. I am so GRATEFUL for Medicare and my federal employee plan supplementary. It is precisely true that I would be dead without them. But all decisions, from the very beginning one of deciding to have these or not have them, are mine. I do not feel any interference whatsoever from the government. And I also received a very strong education in civics when I was young, and I know that the government is all of us together; we make it what it is in holding us together as a society, and the worth or lack of worth of our government is ours to take a hand in.
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I also feel no one owns my health or health care - I have chosen to use mostly alternative medicine - from herbs, to acupuncture and mostly, my choice of eating fresh foods that I prepare and very little meat so that I can afford and purchase only local grass fed beef and local chickens that are not being fed or injected with hormones. When I went for my eye surgery in November they were shocked that I had not used my medicare and here they had to charge the initial annual unpaid portion and it was November.
If we think of the mandate for insurance as an outside control that suggests that law makes me less of an owner than I guess I do not own my house or my vehicle or many of the things I have in this house including my mother's camera and my grandmother's silver and china, things that are covered for theft in these insurance policies.
My house still has a small mortgage so that insurance is mandated and my vehicle also carries a mandated insurance just as now our health requires a mandated insurance - no more un-insured getting free care at hospital emergency rooms which certainly frees up local taxes that is now subsidized by national taxes to offset the cost of this insurance for low income patients.
Just knowing there is security and calmness among those many families who were being denied insurance allows me to feel more secure, relieved it isn't the Ebenezer Scrooge values taking over the health care of those in our nation with serious illness like cancer. Insurance never was designed to help each individual payer but to plug the holes so the most needy stay afloat and we can all together help sail this ship of a nation. The idea of throwing folks overboard or of setting them off on their own in their small dingy's is not my idea of a strong US of A.
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The town I live in, Annapolis, Maryland, is the capital of our state. Our local newspaper, The Capital Gazette, is commonly known hereabouts as The Capital. A local woman wrote a column recently telling the story of her very bad case of cancer, with the medicine prescribed by her oncologist to cost over six thousand dollars a month. The woman's insurance refused to approve that medicine. She would die without it, and maybe even with it. But truly die without it. And she does not make that much money in a month, plus she has a family. So she went online to the state exchange for Affordable Care and actually wound up with a plan that is three hundred dollars a month cheaper and will allow the medicine. They, of course, have to take preexisting conditions now. And thank God for that, as she is now on the medicine and still alive to write the story. We have lots of choices now, and we can be grateful that with all of us pooling in together, more of us can be insured and have that which will allow us to live. Like myself, with my dreadfully expensive meds, three of them, for high blood pressure. And my darling husband in his last months was taking a med that cost fifteen thousand dollars a month, but our insurance approved. That was for his melanoma.
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Barbara,, I do agree with you. Ever since I was exposed to a lot of minimum wage people trying so hard to get by, I wanted some sort of health plan for them..They end up in the emergency room because it was the only place they could go without paying..and then get treated badly in many cases.
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Apparently there are real live breathing Republican senators and representatives who honestly and truly believe that if you cannot make enough money to purchase health insurance, then you should jolly well accept dying as the alternative should you get sick. God wills this, they say. It is your Fate! Earn enough or Die!
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Ah yes, there is yet another fathead republican, who is trying to make sure that only his version of legitimate rape victims are included in anything. Sigh.. Where do these people grow up and what caused the woman hatred in their minds.
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I agree, Steph, that there is a lot of pure woman hatred, but I do think most of it is just disrespect. I think they are raised in their boy culture to think all females contain brains made of fluff and exist ONLY for the purpose of performing those housekeeping tasks they feel they have no time or patience for and as machines to turn out babies, preferably all boys, to grow up and make them proud as they see them off to currant and future wars.
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I guess I have so much trouble understanding why anyone should have control over my body b esides me,, my husband when he was alive and my religion is I practiced one that has strong emotions about abortion.. I would never try to control other peoples bodies, why should they control mine.
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Power does funny things to people - they are often weak and rather than let anyone know even themselves they have to control everything - since women have been controlled by the power of both religion, tradition and then the law picked up where they left off - all controlled by men - and then the other side of being powerful is you can do things because you can - similar to WWII German soldiers and I am sure our own but we do not hear - as German soldiers were taking over docile villages and out of the way farmhouses there was no one in command telling them they had to be brutal and yet they were - just because they could - just as we know prison guards feel a sense of power and treat prisoners like animals, women prisoners are often raped - it is all about power - they justify their laws and attitude with tradition and science - science says movement, action is a measurable force, where as inaction is next to being lifeless - the sperm is in action and a force where as the womb is an inactive receiver - yes, it goes back to anatomy at least it does when you research most religious traditions.
This basic view of action - that can be measured - is the basis for beating the enemy is another reason using peaceful means of negotiation is an anathema to men of action - interesting enough when you look at those taking refuge in Battered Women's Centers the majority are married to men of action and power. And the opposite view again - there is seldom good sex when force is used or it is demanded - it is not about sex it is about wanting what I want when I want it and I am the one in control to make that demand.
The next easy step is to not only control the most intimate act that can be shared but then to be sure as any buck will do during the rut, not allow anyone to prevent the sperm from coming to fruition.
In the history of mankind, love coupled with sex is very new - the courtly love that started all this in the 12th century was young men making advances to older married women - love was not part of the pairing of couples till the 15th century and certainly not for kings and queens till Victoria - we still have a greater portion of the population of the world today that arranges marriages and when you read Tribes and Power Nationalism and Ethnicity in the Middle East or, Tribal Modern Branding New Nations in the Arab Gulf you learn it is about 'tribal purity' where you marry within the tribe because the economics of the society is administered on a tribal basis - wealth is distributed to tribal pure families. and those who are/have married outside the tribe not only do they not receive the proceeds from the nations profit whether it is oil, cotton or any tribal investment but their entire family is excluded.
In order to assure your economic future families keep the line pure by controlling marriage and you still hear how woman will justify the wearing of the hijab and the burka - they are brought up to realize they controlled the economic welfare of the family - not in so many words, just as we still bring up little boys with the concept they are the breadwinners - it is not overt but it is in our thinking and so these traditions keep the balance of power. For women they hide behind a veil which is being still or non-active and in some quarters of the world men are still actively kidnapping women for their wives or today, to make money off the sex trade.
We know that it takes a womb to grow a child and so it takes both equally - that message is only slowly making some inroads in the west much less in the rest of the world - who studies or does medical research on the womb - that is the basis of where we are at and until our very anatomy as women is given its value we will be fighting the war of action versus passivity that justifies, to the power source their behavior.
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You have made a good argument for why I am a quaker.. Force destroys you ... Remember Viet Nam, where we acted like animals.
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Primitive minds turn to atrocious violence due to a lack of education. Primitive minds want to confine what education they allow to the things they know about and permit. I think this makes for what is known as a vicious cycle.
My belief is that education should be open and all-encompassing. Let all children learn about all cultures and all religions and all history. Let them learn the facts without personal bias and opinions. Let them know our total world history, memorize and really take in our geography and population figures, and be encouraged to open their creative instincts with exposure to art, music and literature from around the globe. Immerse them in the science of what makes up our universe, from the smallest known objects to the largest. Expose them to the wonders and fun of mathematics. Let them find their strengths so that they may embark on careers that they find joy in. Let there be no children of the homo sapiens species upon this planet without access to such education.
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Actually very very few of the children on this planet get that type of education alas.. I wish they did. I live now in a state that believes in tests, tests,tests,, doesn't prove anything but rewards children who like to be tested.
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Steph, I read recently, and I wish I could state where for sure for attribution, but I read so much my mind gets muddled as to the source these days, I THINK this was in the February 2015 National Geographic, in an article showing scary, scary maps about what is going to happen to Florida (not so much up where you live), that FIVE (5) of Florida's leading Climatologists went together to brief your esteemed governor regarding Global Warming. He said not a word through the whole thing. Asked nary a question. At the end, he said "Thank you," and that was that! Even though the magazine is strictly non-political and non-partisan, it did point out mildly that your state legislature and most county governing bodies are controlled by Republicans, and that they, for the most part, tend to dismiss climate change and global warming.
It also went on to say that plans are afoot NOT to sensibly move the population inland, but to PROP UP the land: raise it by several feet, and even make floating islands of portions of Miami Beach, etc.! The cost? Billions more to the taxpayer than stopping the building on the coast and moving the population. BILLIONS more! But hey, people got to live on the beach and the rest of us gotta pay for them to enjoy their properties there and rebuild em when the storms of global warming knock em down! Scheesch!
I don't know about you, but I suspect you feel as squeamish as I do about a person whose job it is to run a whole state having a set of experts come to give a briefing and not asking of them one single question. Now THERE is a man who thinks he knows it all; has all the answers already, thank you very much. Terrifying, actually!
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Our current governor.. hmm. a man who ran a health organization that was under indictment by the government, so he resigned and got elected governor. I would believe anything of him, since he does not strike me as beating on all cylinders.
I live in the center of the state, but mostly stay here since my husband died because both of my sons live in southwest Florida. My summer home is in the mountains of north Carolina, so I can retreat to the mountains if I had to.
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This is scary funny, the kind of stuff that has been happening all over our nation on a myriad of subjects and coming from the vacant heads and blustery mouths of many males:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/audio-idaho-republican-asks-if-a-woman-can-swallow-a-camera-for-gynecological-exam/
Yes, Ladies, this is the typical IQ of the regulators of our wombs, who are convinced we own neither the intelligence nor the right attitude to be allowed to do so on our own.
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Incredible!
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These people get elected.. How did we get to this place in history.
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(http://cdn-media-2.lifehack.org/wp-content/files/2015/02/445852837c177d4555271d2c0cb92f71.jpg)
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No, No, a thousand times No.. Value yourself.. They don't love you, they simply use you. Oh Barb,, never ever believe others about yourself. You know that within you dwells a unique personality , that is of value and love.
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Yes, away from that kind of daily put downs you realize it however, many feel responsible or for other reasons cannot just walk away from a situation where you are pushed down till you have no belief in yourself left - I've been there and many women have been there - it takes years of work to get out of that hole -
One help to me was a group of about 20 men and women who were nothing but positive in every and I mean every conversation - they only offered support in every comment and gave examples of receiving support and supported not only each other but told how they were supporting another family member. All this support and positive feedback was encouragement for us to achieve some small goal - mine at the time was simply to get out of bed be 8:30 in the morning - others had goals that included a running program to writing every day to finally having the courage to sell their craft work and to get busy each day creating their for sale items, to a few working on finally sticking to a learning program of some sort and several had to do with the big stuff of confronting their abusing boss or family member.
I learned from that experience, what a difference positive loving exchanges can make and I am trying to make that my way of talk since I did learn how we talk to others is how we talk to ourselves and we can be the worst culprit with our self talk of tearing ourselves down or we can be in the habit of building up ourselves and others.
I'll never forget that 90 day program and I still have a few of those from that support team as friends on facebook today. We did the entire program online and included in this group was a guy from Italy, another from Britain, a woman from Switzerland and another from the Netherlands, a guy from South Africa and another from a small town in northern Mexico - they all spoke some English - some better than others - there were folks from Virginia, Oregon, Michigan, Alabama, at least two from California, one from Nova Scotia -
Some of us tried to keep it up but without a site set up to follow the daily requirement of posting our successes for the day that was on a page where we re-read our goal that we were encouraged to word without any fault finding but only in positive terms we were not able to keep as active the camaraderie however, about half of us are friends on facebook and sure enough to this day, its been years now, we always only comment with a positive encouraging response and we are sure to 'like' any contribution any of us make.
And so, I know first hand the damage that the quote I found is about and know the pain that isn't even pain - you become numb trying hard not to show it and handle your life by splitting into two personalities - one for the public and the other who you believe is your true self who wants to hide in your home or for me in my bed. Trying to hide while being in public wore me out but I knew if I didn't stay active I would go down some black hole and be in an institution -
I notice this is the relationship I have with my best friend - as we age we cannot help but notice how the generation just younger feels so put upon by our lifestyle and they fear having to take care of us so they start to try to control us - we love our family but it is not easy for some of us as we can be treated like children by the very family members we love. Again, staying up beat and sharing only positive feedback regardless how we would like to dump our experiences and bad feelings is doing more for us than I imagined when we made this decision to be each others positive support.
All I can say is you are right Steph but sometimes we need support to make that wisdom be a part of our thinking and emotional life. It is not always easy to be positive in return when you do not agree with what someone is saying or you are feeling bad because someone was rude to you or we experience change we never imagined we would have to tackle but like Gandhi, I hope to develop the skill I'm espousing that I believe will get us all past this polarization that has taken over and to support the many who secretly feel less about themselves than they should. Wish me luck folks... I know I will be doing myself a favor as well. 8)
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I realize that I am a lucky person in that my sons and daughter in laws and grandchildren all seem intent on making me understand that they consider me a vital person, full of life and interest so that I never feel left out. Every once in a while I do tend to remind them, that possibly I am slowing down, but they will not hear of it and remind me of all the things I do and love. I am fortunate in my family.
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One of the self therapies I apply when a hurt occurs from a reaction or, more often, a lack of reaction from a loved one, is to think on the BIG picture: the thousand year or thousands of years picture. I tell myself life is not all about my ability, or one other person's ability, to interact satisfactorily with ME.
Instead, Life is all about JOY, and our individual experience of that, and our being in tune with the whole dang universe and the beauty of it all, and to give back as much Joy as we are capable of.
To hell with one individual person and THEIR bundle of problems. I put up my shield of self protection and refuse to be either a victim or a martyr. Nope! I stand tall, all 5'2" of me, and firm on top of it all and try to emit as much comfort and Joy as I can to others.
Even when it is a beloved family member who sends the zing of pain, you just have to forgive and forget AND LET IT GO! Turn the spotlight of your mind 180° in the Other direction! Whatever is going on, it is THEIR problem, and the chances are overwhelming that you cannot fix it for them. Don't let it become a cancer in your soul. In doing so, you allow yourself, indeed, inflict upon yourself or allow yourself to be inflicted with victimhood and martyrdom.
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AMEN!
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yes, oh yes.,.
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Saturday afternoon I spent several hours watching the MSNBC coverage of that days march across the bridge at Selma, 50 years to the day after the famous first one. It was a splendid gathering graced by many wonderful speeches and one truly great one.
Old films were shown again and again, and one strong contrast snagged my awareness.
Fifty years ago, there was a line of white police cars. From those emerged scores of white policemen who proceeded to brutalize peaceful fellow citizens.
This Saturday a line of black limousines drew up at that spot. From them emerged the First Family of these United States.
How sweet it is!
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With so much aggression in the world today and the long standing aggression towards women the recent Charlie Rose round-table of scientists working on the brain and the behavior of aggression was a very insightful program with lots of new information -
The various kinds of aggression, how genes are some of the cause and how environment is equal in cause and the scientific work that proves how close aggression is to sexual impulse -
Toward they end of the show the group in the round-table does get a bit into the particulars of aggression against women - I learned much so that I understand some things in a different way
If you missed the show here is the link
http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60526735
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I have to say that I have some reservations about the fact that if it is a black person who dies, or a historical black event, Obama pops up, but otherwise no.. I voted for him, but thus far he has not ranked in the top 25 of Presidents.
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I was impressed that George W Bush was there and his wife Laura - Steph I do not know of any big anniversary of an event that the nation celebrated that involved white folks that Obama missed - the WWII big events are all taking place in Europe and he will be there for the 70th anniversary of the Normandy invasion - where as this was the 50th anniversary of a national event - I thought Obama's remarks about the few who actually vote was well done and I was really impressed that he brought into his litany of folks who made a significant impact in this nation several women including Stanton.
It takes a moment like this with an inclusive speech to realize not only are voting rights being pushed back but women's rights, especially women's health rights have been pushed back - I can see how easy it is to whip up divisive support among good everyday folks after hearing and seeing the Charlie Rose roundtable discussion on aggression - attempting to only see the good in others is not easy but it sure is an earmark of a peace loving culture where as, we are being bombarded with a constant emotional tug of war that taps our own aggression which, evidently is within all of us and we become the supporters rather than maintaining our normal peaceful ways.
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I think of Selma as a national history event, not as an Afrucan-American event. Didn't we all watch in astonishment 50 yrs ago? Television brought it to the whole country, most of whom had no idea hiw terrible Af-Am lives were in the South, especially what was (not) happening re: voting rights. Tv was hugely important in the progress of Civil Rts.
I love Charlie Rose's series on the brain. It is info we wouldn't get anywhere else on tv. I said to my dgt last night that she is going to see amazing things in her life, what with the use of brain imaging. One of this show's interesting bits for me was how important daycare can be in socializing aggressive 3 and 4 yr olds. That is the time of most human lives when they are the most aggressive and have to learn the boundaries. If parents don't teach about boundaries, (and they seem to be less likely to do that these days. Isit guilt that they aren't there as much as our parents were?) daycare is where they learn to control their actions.
The other piece that raises an interesting question, if some aggression is genetic, what is ethical to do about their aggressive behaviors? Do we punish them?
Maryz - i have to be in opposition to you today in the women's SEC game, Dawn Staley is a local "girl", have to support her. :D
Jean
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No problem, jean - I understand. Dawn has done a fantastic job with her gals. Sorry that the Lady Vols didn't win, though. :D
Our other team did win - the University of Tennessee Chattanooga won the confererence (undefeated) and the tournament, are ranked #17 by the AP. (Plus they beat Tennessee and Stanford in nonconference games!)
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PProblem is that 50 years ago, I lived in the deep south and the news traveled in entirely different cycles at that point in our time. Nowadays, we know everything in hours, but not then and frankly the local newspapers did not cover the story.. Living deep in the south in the 60.s was quite different.
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Yes, I agree Steph but then most of our national events that we honor today became important to the notational agenda far after the day or year when they happened. Hindsight Selma was important to all of us and folks both black and white risked their lives and were beaten, hosed, ridiculed that day in order that all citizens had an equal chance to be given what was promised by our Constitution.
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A dear friend of mine who is a few yrs younger than i am grew up in NC and said she NEVER saw any of the Civil Rts events on her local tv stations. She's had to learn about them as an adult.
Jean
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True - I remember when my two older children were about 4 and 5 we went into town in Lexington Ky. to shop and I parked one street behind the main street next to the metal walkway over the railroad tracks - there was an alley that after walking across the walkway led to main street between a rather nice, 3 story department store and a row of one story shops - we stopped still and were stunned - could not understand or believe what we were seeing - there was a group of about 20 to 25 whites, all gloved and hatted as was the way back then, standing in a semi-circle, silent, just befuddled, looking as on the sidewalk was about 30 or 40 black people laying flat on the ground - there was a bus parked by the curb - a yellow school bus was used and a few police men, two at a time, lifting them up one by one into the bus- not roughly because we/they knew most of these people - yes, they picked up our garbage, mowed our lawns and cleaned our houses, even the police knew most by name having waved to say hay since they were children - everyone was just silent, looking, not sure what it meant or what to do - should we say hello - it was a befuddlement and never a peep about what happened on the local news or in the newspaper and no one ever talked about it afterwards.
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I am glad that some of us had the same type experiences. Now I know how and why, but growing up and as a new married, I was always in the south. I can remember so vividly in South Carolina riding the bus to work and watching the nannies ( all black) getting on the bus with their charges. The charges all sat in the first few rows and the nannies went to the back. Everyone was safe, because this was the custom and the white women watched the children carefully. Still it was so wrong and at that point, it just seemed normal.
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As communities, we have been guilty in this nation of turning our collective minds away from the thousands of lynchings of black boys and men that have occurred in my own lifetime. It seems to me that only when the speed of news became instant and white men and women began to protest racial wrongs that we began to hear about these things nationally: James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner murdered by officers of the law and buried in a mud dam, Viola Liuzzo shot to death while driving civil rights protesters, and so on and on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States
We still turn our thoughts away from the millions upon millions of Native Americans we slaughtered, man, woman and child, while they slept in their villages. We considered them vermin and wanted their lands for our own settlers. We justified it on the basis that they were less than human and constituted a threat to our well being. We actually sent the Army of The United States in to complete this "work."
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html
And we wonder how it could possibly have been that the Germans lived with the Nazi campaign to exterminate all Jews! Or the Turks to the mass killings of the Armenians among them! Do we ever remember the dreadful bloodletting when Catholic mobs killed all the Protestants they could find in France in the 16th century? Or the bombings and shootings between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland in the 20th?
Both we and the Nazis have carried out genocide in the name of Christianity, yet people were horrified and indignant when our President pointed out that Christians have not been unlike the terrorists of today. I don't understand how people think; I just DON'T! My meager knowledge of History tells me President Obama is just trying to make people look at the Truth and Think, he is not attempting to undermine our nation or Christianity.
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You sound so positive, but I still maintain doubts on Obama.. He is not what I wanted when I voted for him..Yes all religions, not just the US have made horrible mistakes over a long period of time and probably will make more. However the current ISIS is what is happening here and now. They are destroying the history of the region in the name of religion. I know what we did to Indians was wrong and stupid, but it is also past..I dislike that I think Obama does not really look at what is happening in the name of tolerance and in this current case, a lot of people are dying that don't need to. I don't want boots on the ground in any of the countries, but I also know that the US is famous for always backing the wrong horse. Wish it were not true, but it is.
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I'm concerned with truth. President Obama appears to refuse to see what is going on as religion-based. He defines the Egyptians who were beheaded as '100 Egyptian citizens', rather than Coptic Christians; in France where a kosher deli was deliberately targeted, he referred to the Jews killed as 'French folk'. Muslims took large regions, in their inception, and killed those who refused to convert, oppressed Christians and Jews whom they (at first) viewed as monotheistic, 'people of the Book'. The Crusades (although very simplistically put, as all these types of events are multi-faceted to be sure!) were a reaction to this Muslim take-over, especially of the Holy Land. I heard a historian also point out that the 'atrocities' we would define (being done on both sides) would not have been seen as unusual during that time frame: he cautioned us not to 'read into' historical events the culture we live in today.
It is all so very sad! And - yes - I shuddered at the loss of irreplaceable historical artifacts as well. I think what causes the 'terror' is the violence and brutality we would normally attribute to a more barbaric time. Sad...sad...
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Oh kear hate to be a stickler but when the discussion turns political we have a political discussion for that - lets hope we are not confusing woman's issues with our opinion of our President. ;)
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That's a good point, BarbStAubrey. :)
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You are right Barb.. I just got carried away from disappointment.
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http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2015/03/holland-island-house-animation/
I think I have mentioned in here before that our area has been said by scientists to be one of the first here in the states to feel the effects of climate change. Here is a perfectly gorgeous brand new very short film made in what to me is also a brand new medium, clay on glass! And animated, too! Wow! I love the artist's sense of humor in including take offs on very famous works of art. But it is a sort of gallows humor, for we really are losing our islands here in the Chesapeake Bay, and this filmlet tells an absolutely true story of a very real house. Do watch all the way through the credits, please!
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Tonight at the end of the PBS News Hour, Gwen Ifill talked with Cokie Roberts about her new book, Capital Dames (http://www.amazon.com/Capital-Dames-Civil-Washington-1848-1868/dp/0062002767/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429321322&sr=8-1&keywords=cokie+roberts) It's not listed on BookTV yet, but I bet it will be before long. It's about influential women during the Civil War.
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I am a really huge fan of Gwen Ifill.[/b]
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I am too. I think and Judy Woodruff do a great job of giving the News WITHOUT the screaming, talking over others, and hyperbole of some of the other so-called News Channels.
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Absolutely on the same page you are! In fact, our local paper printed this letter from me yesterday morning:
Oh, my! It has been like a breath of sweet spring air to read some of the editorials, columns, and letters written recently. Suddenly it seems we are hearing from a sane and rational sector of our community, folks who prefer to lay out the Facts concerning any given matter and then the pros and cons of how we need to deal with those facts: what actions we can and/or cannot take.
I had truly come to wonder if some odorless gas had been loosed upon our county and erased the thinking mechanisms inside the skulls of many fellow citizens who had breathed deeply of it. So very many letters and columns full of slangy slogans spitting out slanders and hatred for politicians, candidates and ideas the writers are obviously scared to bits of at the same time they have no true knowledge about or well thought out alternative suggestions for. The most amazing phenomenon is that these same authors seem to have no idea how ridiculous they sound!
Thanks to Lee Caudle and Allen Sampson, among others, for restoring my faith in our system of government. Didn’t Winston Churchill say that “you can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they’ve tried everything else!”
Sigh! It would be lovely if we could skip the “everything else!”
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Ah Winston, always the appropriate words.. I did like him so much.
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(http://40.media.tumblr.com/bc8a866adc41ed00eef44dee080b7539/tumblr_inline_nmyripYVZr1spqtbh_1280.jpg)
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1.Gambarini (de), Elisabetta (1731-1765, England)
2. Garūta, Lūcija (1902-1977, Latvia)
3. Gipps, Ruth (1921-1999, England)
4. Glanville-Hicks, Peggy (1912-1990, Austria)
5. Gonzaga, Chiquinha (1847-1935, Brazil)
6. Grandval (de), Clémence (1828-1907, France)
7.Grøndahl-Backer, Agathe (1847-1907, Norway)
8. Gubitosi, Emilia (1887-1972, Italy)
9.Guy-Rhodes, Helen (Guy d’Hardelot) (1858-1936, France)
10.Mendelssohn-Hensel, Fanny(1805-1847, Germany)
11. Farrenc, Louise (1804-1875, France)
12. Fuchs, Lillian (1901-1995, USA)
13. Gail, Sophie (1775-1819, France)
14. Carreño, Teresa (1853-1917, Venezuela)
15. Carwithen, Doreen (1922-2003, England)
16. Casulana, Maddalena (c.1544 – c.1590, Italy)
17. Chaminade, Cécile (1857-1944, France)
18. Clarke, Rebecca (1886-1979, England)
19. Colbran, Isabella (1785-1845, Spain)
20. Demessieux, Jeanne Marie Madeleine (1921-1968, France)
21. Dring, Madeleine (1923-1977, England)
22. Dussek, Sophia Giustina (1775-1831, Scotland)
23. Eckhardt-Gramatté, Sophie-Carmen (1901-1974,Canada)
24. Bonds, Margaret (1913-1972, USA)
25. Bottini, Marianna (1802-1858, Italy)
26. Boulanger, Lili (1893-1918, France)
27. Boulanger, Nadia (1887-1979, France)
28. Boyle, Ina (1889-1967, Ireland)
29. Caccini, Francesca (1587-1641, Italy) *
30. Bembo, Antonia (c.1643 – before 1715, Italy)
31. Bertin, Louise (1805-1877, France)
32. Blahetka, Leopoldine (1810-1887, Austria)
33. Bon, Anna (c.1739-?, Italy)
34. Bonis, Mélanie (Mel Bonis) (1858-1937, France)
35. Bosmans, Henriëtte Hilda (1895-1952, Netherlands)
36. Agnesi Pinottini, Maria Teresa (1720-1795, Italy)
37. Aulin, Valborg (1860-1928, Sweden)
38. Alexandra, Liana (1947-2011, Romania)
39. Andrée, Elfrida (1841-1929, Sweden)
40. Auster, Lydia (1912-1993, Estonia)
41. Bacewicz, Grażyna (1909-1969, Poland)
42. Bądarzewska-Baranowska, Tekla (1834-1861, Poland)
43. Barraine, Elsa (1910-1999, France)
44. Bauer, Marion (1882-1955, USA)
45. Beach, Amy (1867-1944, USA)
46. Strozzi, Barbara (1619-1677, Italy)
47. Suesse, Nadine Dana (1909-1987, USA)
48. Szymanowska, Maria Aghate (1789-1831, Poland)
49. Tailleferre, Germaine (1892-1983, France)
50. Tegnér, Alice (1864-1943, Sweden)
51. Viardot, Pauline (1821-1910, France)
52. White, Maude Valérie (1855-1937, England)
53. Wilhelmina (Wilhelmine, Friederike Sophie), Princess of Prussia (1709-1758, Germany)
54. Williams, Grace Mary (1906-1977, Wales)
55. Qu, Xixian (1919-2008, China)
56. Müller-Hermann, Johanna (1868-1941, Austria)
57. Musgrave, Thea (1928, Scotland)
58. Netzel, Laura Clarence (N. Lago)(1839-1927, Sweden)
59. Pejačević, Dora (1885-1923, Croatia)
60. Price, Florence Beatrice (1887-1953, USA)
61. Renié, Henriette (1875-1956, France)
62. Schumann-Wieck, Clara (1819-1896, Germany)
63. Senfter, Johanna (1879-1961, Germany)
64. Smith, Alice Mary (1839-1884, England)
65. Smyth, Ethel (1858-1944, England)
66. Röntgen-Maier, Amanda (1853-1894, Sweden)
67. Malibran, Maria (1808-1836,Spain)
68. Martinez (von), Marianne (1744-1812, Austria)
69. Mayer, Emilie (1821-1883, Germany)
70. Meda, Bianca Maria (1665-1700, Italy)
71. Montgeroult (de), Hélène (1764-1836, France)
72. Leonarda, Isabella (1620-1704, Italy)
73. Levina, Zara Alexandrovna (1906-1976,Russia)
74. Lombardini-Sirmen, Maddalena Laura (1745-1818, Italy)
75. Lund, Signe (1868-1950, Norway)
76. Maconchy, Elizabeth Violet (1907-1994, England)
77. Mahler, Alma (1879-1964, Austria)
78. Hildegard von Bingen (1098-1179, Germany)
79. Jaëll, Marie (1846-1925, France)
80. Jacquet de la Guerre, Élisabeth-Claude (1665-1729, France)
81. Holmès, Augusta (1847-1903, France)
82. Kaprálová, Vítězslava (1915-1940, Czech Republic)
83. Kassia (805/810 - before 865, Byzantine Empire)
84. Kessler, Minuetta (1914-2002, Canada)
85. Kinkel, Johanna (1810-1858, Germany)
86. Lang, Josephine (1815-1880, Germany)
87. Le Beau, Luise Adolpha (1850-1927, Germany)
♪♫ Clara Schumann - 3 Romances for Piano (Op.11), No. 1, Andante, in Ebm
♪♫ Lili Boulanger - Vieille Prière Bouddhique
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Wow! Barbara, is that a book or just a list?
I'm going to the library this afternoon to pick up Colonial Dames. Since it is new i have only 2 weeks to read it, but knowing Roberts books, i'm sure that normally wouldn't be a problem, except in that same 2 weeks i've got to finish the book for the f2f libray book group and an ebook i got online from the library. Of course, that last one i can return and get it another time.
"So many books, so little time."
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Unfortunately just a list with their accompanying photo on the page above. Woman composers who we can start to look online for their music or if you collect CDs rather than simply listening to the men whose names and their work are more familiar.
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I meant Capital Dames, not Colonial Dames.
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Here we go - Vítězslava Kaprálová, wrote this Concerto when she was only 20 years old in 1935
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k-tIEBV_rM
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I am so horrified by that demonstration against Muslims in Phoenix that I am rendered frozen in terror and nausea. What has HAPPENED to the VALUES of this country? And since when is collectively carrying firearms and scaring the wits out of a community of men, women and CHILDREN meeting on their own property, and who are EQUAL in every way to all the rest of us in their rights as citizens of this country, allowed? ALLOWED?
Apparently our rights as citizens to meet freely and express our reverence to a Higher Power is to be superseded by the second amendment as a handful of power brokers see it. Yes, we can meet in our community centers, parish houses, churches, temples, synagogues, cathedrals, meeting houses, and so forth: but from this point on there may be an armed mob surrounding and threatening our very existence! Ready to pick us off as we exit? Follow us to our homes and murder us? Dear God, but I am more than ready to step off this planet!
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I so agree. For me the world has turned upside down. I seldom watch the news any more, i am so disgusted with the behavior of people. But having always been a news junky, ::)i can't give it up completely. As i have said before, the aliens - somebody or something - plastics? Hormones? - have tainted the water, making us totally irrational!
O.k., here we go again, only the first two sentences showed up in my post. I'll try again.
Jean
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When I look at the format by our government it is easier for me to see how folk, from the media to the average guy on the street are following suit with their version of the "Shock Doctrine"
From a paper I read on US world affairs developing peace and conflict. I never heard of the Washington Consensus but that is the basis of the thinking in Washington that I see has trickled down to the way we act to each other and the trauma this approach is based in affecting everyone.
"The Washington Consensus first developed by John Williamson in the 1980s as a new strategy for development in Latin America became the platform which developing countries were prescribed to reach “Western” prosperity." The Washington Consensus is the market- based approach that bled into every sector of government, politics, and investments by Banks.
"The Washington Consensus contains 10 concrete principles: (1) Fiscal Discipline; (2) Restructuring Public/Social Expenditure Priorities; (3) Tax Reform; (4) Liberalizing Interest Rates; (5) Competitive Exchange Rates; (6) Trade Liberalization; (7) Liberalization of Inward Foreign Direct Investment; (8) Privatization; (9) Deregulation; and, (10) Property Rights. Lastly, Washington advocated applying these principles all at once, in other words by “Shock Therapy.”
These principles, combined with enforcement by the IMF and World Bank in the form of Structural Adjustment (later called Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers), effectively made up an iron-locked structure for economic development and reform. To gain access to loans and aid from the critical international financial institutions, developing nations had little choice but to enroll in Structural Adjustment Policies, which secured their position on the new Bretton Woods track for development."
Every night on the news we see the 'Washington Consensus' in action keeping us in a state of shock - so that the average person, especially those without a reference to acceptable social behavior before the 1990s which is now 25 years ago. are living with, through or are observing 'Shock' that creates stress and shock is considered trauma.
Emotional and psychological trauma is the result of extraordinarily stressful events that shatter your sense of security, making you feel helpless and vulnerable in a dangerous world.
Most of the changes in our economy have pulled the rug out from under folks with lack of jobs and changes to traditional jobs that I can see because it happens in RE a rather stable way of work with only the demand changing from year to year and now every few months there is new rules, laws and most of all new technology to learn and use - in addition, there is nightly on TV photos of the out of control wars and human horrors with no end in sight and knowing folks from the Middle East were the people that caused a huge traumatic event on 9/11. Right or horribly wrong folks are in reaction.
There is no national support for living a normal calm predictable track in life - I feel like I need Lunas's blanket - We see how political figures are addicted to the Shock Doctrine just to be noticed. As a nation we have not even admitted we are scared or upset. Using Shock Doctrine there are those who have swooped in using our propensity for blame and our normal need to heal that is the stuff of stability and security, they are using this void to push their own agenda - No different than the void after the floods in New Orleans wholesale created private, for profit, charter schools rather than rebuilding the public school system.
We, with our years of history watching all of this, we are feeling helpless and so all we can do is turn off the TV - Jean, you are not alone - I watch the local news and Charlie Rose about 3 or 4 nights a week and on Friday I do still turn to my old stand bys, the NewsHour and Washington Week in Review - no more Sunday round tables or whatever they consider themselves to be or morning or noon time news and seldom any national evening news - I have a web site or two I look at the headlines and if i want further information fine but most often I pass. But then most of us remember a different time and think this 'Shock Doctrine' approach will go away - I think we need to instead understand how it manifests itself and take care of ourselves because we cannot teach those born from the mid 70s on what it was like to live before everything became a drama of shock that big interests take advantage of and support to further their ends.
If we are ever going back to war which some do want - it is profitable - then we need to whip up anger towards those who look like who ever they have decided is the enemy and so attacks against Muslims gets a headline - those who own the media, yes, own - will profit from war and the brutality of ISIS is the fear tactic that is built up further to show them as marching into Israel - fight ISIS and the thinking is we protect Israel - so feature in their media, groups against Muslims - the more attention they get the more copycat events we will see.
Sounds like we are putting our heads in the sand by tuning out but what can we really do about any of this - all we can do is keep each other feeling calm, upbeat and valued - our efforts will spread - it always does and we can communicate where it makes a difference.
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I think that fear is governing so much of our lives.The idea that people who are muslim,, young and male mostly.. go online and become radicalized is terrifying to everyone.. including their adult parents. Social media has a lot to answer for. I was just reading about trolls, which I did not understand the meaning of, but after Beau Bidens death accidently ran into the vilest commentary I have ever seen.. That is not a troll..That is a human being with no boundaries. How sad.
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On the OTHER side of the coin, the Biden family showed the whole world what Family and Love are all about. A Pure example.
And I thought our President's eulogy was perfect. It will go down in History as a great funeral oration.
I choked up over Hunter's eulogy. They say there was not a dry eye in the church or the overflow crowd outside where there were speakers set up.
The Biden family stood in line and shook hands for over 11 hours, that's how long the line was!
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I originally was born and grew up in Delaware and know that the people were crazy about Beau and the whole Biden family. The state grieves for all of them.
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There's been a lot of discussion in feminist circles about Caitlyn's image of what one has to do to be "womenly." I commented on my blog today - which i have neglected for a long time - about what happened to our 70s struggle to be comfortable in our accoutraments.
o.k., again it posted only the first paragraph of my msg. I don't know if that's me or Seniorlearn, but i'll try again.
I added a bit of today's Nursing Clio blog that was motivated by the question of whether the make-up we wear is required or a pleasure. I have included a link to her blog in my blog.
http://womanstorybyjeanp.blogspot.com/2015/06/caitlyns-image-of-women.html
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Well said, jean! I left a comment on your blog. I hope you keep writing.
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Yes, you bring up an interesting topic that gets you thinking - I also shared my thoughts
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Well, as observed frequently for nearly a century now, it takes all kinds.
Actually, I grew up under tutelage from the strong women who dominated my childhood to believe that any makeup whatsoever, other than a dash of lipstick, or waft of powder on the nose to reduce any gleam there, was cheap. Trashy people did that, WE did not! We were "Ladies."
I never, ever bothered with the powder. To this day, I have never used makeup other than an occasional dash of lipstick, and for the vast majority of the time, I skip that. I look fine, thank you. For some reason, I am physically uncomfortable with necklaces, bracelets and rings, albeit I own a goodly supply and apply them on the fanciest of occasions. Pins I love, and I am naked without my earrings. Truth! If I go to the door in the early morning to retrieve my newspaper and a neighbor should go by and glimpse me without my earrings on, I feel they have seen me in the altogether; that is to say, actually, that I am NOT YET all together!
Yes, I was raised to believe that only prostitutes and actresses wore makeup! But I am now delighted that I have spent a lifetime without it, as everyone, EVERYONE, from my dermatologist to my teenage great granddaughters exclaims loudly about how remarkable my skin is. My hairdresser goes nuts, and constantly tells me how amazing it is. My face has never worn makeup, my eyes have never worn makeup, and my face has never been exposed to the sun. I have avoided the sun like it was a killer and have never, ever sunbathed for so much as a minute.
It appalls me that my daughters and granddaughters, and now great granddaughters, have to spend ages on hair and makeup every day of their lives! I have enjoyed ever so much more freedom than they!
As for it making you more feminine, I have had three (3) husbands (lost each to cancer) and the opportunity for more. Always plenty of interested men. And each of my husbands was purely delighted that I did not have a made up face smelling of "that crap," as one put it. Go figure!
What makes a woman? It is innate. Hormonal. I fully believe there are women in men's bodies. I entertain absolutely no doubts about that fact of nature. But there are women and women, and I own full faith and confidence in my womanhood with or without my earrings, though I'd druther it be WITH!
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Jean, made a comment, but don't understand what I am supposed to be in the signature thing. None of the items are things I do
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I had that same problem, Steph. I finally decided to do "other," and then thought, naaaah. I said all I had to say right here.
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I'm not clear about "the signature thing" and "categories." I thought you just replied in the box and "publish."
Jean
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Apparently it is not that simple, Jean; but remember, you own the blog and it already identifies you. For me, it wants me to identify myself and gives the choice of the following "Profiles."
GoogleAccount
LiveJournal
WordPress
TypePad
AIM
OpenID
Like Steph, I am none of those; in fact, I've never even heard of most of them. So I finally decided to opt for OpenID, and then it wants me to fill in a box entitled: URL:
Now I am pretty ignorant of all of this stuff, but I think it is asking me for a website? In any event, I do not own a website. Never have done. So I felt a tad frustrated and decided not to explore any of the other options listed.
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I tried several and kept getting to place that I have not ever written in.. Hmm. I don't follow blogs for the most part and now see whyl
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Four of my 13 granddaughters keep blogs about their children, and I can get into each of those with a simple password each, but I never post on them; I just read and enjoy.
One of my daughters keeps a blog about her class, and again, I can access that with a simple password, as can the parents. She does not request comments, as she really does not have room for them. We can email her, instead.
One of my great granddaughters kept a wonderful blog about her trip around the world. Again, a simple password got me into it.
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I used to keep up with some blogs from people who live in remote areas.. Interesting to me. I tend to be a natural hermit in many ways.
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Me, too.
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MaryPage, I am convinced that we were sisters in another universe.
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Me, too. We do not always agree, but we do the vast majority of the time, and when we do not it is in matters of no great significance.
Me, I envy you hugely having owned your very own bookstore; something I always wanted, but it never even got near to happening.
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It was a lovely lovely dream come true, but as my husband reminded me,, don't do it if you plan on earning a living.. and he was right.
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Did you see on the news that the Treasury Department has announced that it is going to put a woman's picture on the $10 bill beginning in 2020 (the 100th anniversary of the 19th amendment [women's suffrage])? There will be various sites for suggestions as to which woman it will be.
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Yes, been reading about it - also the uglies are slamming Jackson as a racist etc etc etc. sheesh - no balance left - your either all good or all bad based on values today rather then realizing everyone grows and changes and within the understanding of their time folks did great things that make our life possible today -
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I admired Jackson and still do. Go to his house and realize how bright and aware he was and how he adored his wife. But I do feel that it is time for a woman.. My choice is probably not popular, since I feel that Eleanor Roossevelt changed the way we looked at women..
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This is not to replace Jackson. It's to replace Alexander Hamilton on the $10.00 bill. Jackson is on the $20.
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Am a big fan of Eleanor Roosevelt, as well. Also Margaret Sanger should, IMHO, be on there. Fat chance!
Heard someone on the telly say fer sure who it is going to be, and I've already forgotten.
Anyway, if you can tell me where to go to vote, I'll choose Margaret Sanger! No one, NO ONE PERSON, has done more to improve the lives of women, to give them self awareness and confidence; and she did that for this whole vast nation of women.
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I so agree about Margaret Sanger, even though you all know i'm a huge fan of Alice Paul. Both of those women changed women's AND men's lives in the 20th century. I think we should celebrate Margaret Sanger's birthday, Sept 14, not as a national holiday where everyone gets off of work, but as a thank you to her and a celebration for our not having to have 8, 10, 12 children and for being able to have the ones we have when, and if, we want them.
Jean
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Sorry, did not look at the 10.00 or 20.00... Margaret Sanger would be a good choice. I had read somewhere it as Sojourner Truth. I hope not for a variety of reasons, but who knows.
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UNBELIEVABLE!
The NRA says if EVERYone in that church had had guns, they could have saved themselves, and THAT is the only answer!
Hey! What if some of us don't WANT guns blasting off in every place we go in our daily routines?
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/06/18/nra-board-member-blames-murdered-reverend-for-d/204057
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MaryPage all I am seeing is when a catastrophe happens everyone with an agenda throws in their hook - we want to feel there was a way to control circumstances so the catastrophe did not have to happen and 'if only' this or that were done...blah blah blah - then we can get all involved in arguing if their agenda would have been best because the work that it will take to understand these young men and have a clue as to how they can do what they are doing will take time - time that we will be churning with despair and feeling helpless or worse yet, having to focus on the grief of those who witnessed or the families of the victims.
Then by the time we have had all these useless discussions the event is over and it simply becomes another touch-point defined by place and year that we use to describe, like a symbol, some other dis-associated event. We then never have to push for a real study as to what is it that makes this response to society happen - the last I heard, it is a form of suicide but that explanation does not appear to fit this event - so why - and a why without an immediate answer is hard to live with.
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I do not want or need guns in my life and the NRA is run by idiots. Do they actually believe that our forefathers carried weaponry everywhere.?
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Actually, Steph, the majority of their small membership (as a percentage of our population) is made up of just gullible loud mouths who buy into and spread the propaganda. The actual controlling membership is made up of the gun MANUFACTURERS, and they don't buy into it one speck, nor do they care. It is all a PROFIT MAKING ploy, and the rest of their membership could care less and the public is bedazzled by the NRA's power. The power, of course, is won from the fifty state legislatures and the Congress of these United States; the NRA's "legal expenses" are all made up of wining and dining and lining the pockets of our easily beguiled elected representatives. Now the power of the NRA has become so legendary that said elected politicians are frozen in fear, scared to death to defy the NRA with any sensible gun laws because the NRA has the power to see to it that they are never reelected.
Follow the money. Always, always, always follow the money. That has been true ever since mankind invented money!
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I remember a politician last name LaPierre in New Hampshire. wonder if it is the same man. If so, he is a total lunatic.
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The same man as who?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_LaPierre
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Now I remember him - yes, he was for years the face of the NRA - was he before or after Heston the actor?
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Wayne LaPierre, the seemingly permanent President of NRA. There used to be a man of that name who ran for President and a variety of other things in New Hampshire back in the 80's.
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So are we back? I'll try to post and find out!
Shis mornings paper is front page concerned about the flooding Annapolis is experiencing and the proposed expense involved in attempting to stem the tides, as it were. Think multimillions into billions. The navy quite alarmed about portents for the academy. They have already spent hundreds of millions repairing damage to classrooms, etc. Our generation is retired and dying off, so it is not and will not be our problem, but those in charge now have a real dilemma: to build dikes and install heavy machinery and keep things the way they are now at huge expense, or to abandon our shores to the waters and let nature move us inland and up. The human race is perched on the cusp of a problem with almost infinite possibilities. The domino effect will become more and more apparent, especially as we have to deal with the masses of peoples dispossessed of their homes worldwide and seeking refuge elsewhere. We are already reading about this every day in our newspapers, but the problem and the numbers will only burgeon as time goes by. Will be massively injurious to the economy, as well. My mind boggles at the enormity of the combination of the myriad difficulties to be resolved.
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Yes MaryPage, as long as there was a buck to be made no amount of words to keep this from happening were heard. I have been reading that all this 'me' attitude is the beginnings of what continues unabated to full blown narcissism - read the tell tale signs for the narcissistic personality and it tells the story of our media and our politics - the idea of community is no longer - To think we went into WWII almost as a holy war to save Europe with young men who believed in the 'can do' principle not only for themselves but they mostly saw themselves as belonging to a 'can do' group and army with integrity running the show -
Oh there were some who made out like bandits but for the most part it was not a war about defending the economic future of a few as recent wars or to alter the balance of power in a region for our benefit.
IT is those reckless few who use their wealth to alter the balance of power in all their affairs - not for the good of even their employees but for themselves. That is an ear mark of narcissism along with lying and if they can't have your admiration, they will accept your rage so there is no way open towards equality. As long as we allow corporations and money to run the show - you can even see it in couples when those difficult years come along - often the winner is the one making the most money - money has replaced integrity, justice and cooperation.
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One thing very sad, Barbara, is to think back when I was young. My story of how life flowed along is practically carbon paper identical to millions of other young Americans of the time. Born in 1929, married in 1948, the war just over and the boys who lived through it coming back in droves as men, small rental apartment to begin setting up housekeeping, graduating to a real house with a yard in 1953, bought with the GI Bill, everyone living from paycheck to paycheck and adding on babies in a stream. Bought our first cars, bought our first TVs, bought our first stereos. Felt poor, but were going to be rich after the next few payraises. Loads of friends in our own neighborhoods and elsewhere. Peace reigning from day to day and week to week. HOPE like a day full of sunshine beaming down upon us all.
There is one big question I have for those who say there is no global warming problem, no fierce and threatening climate change, no lack of safe water, no air pollution, no dying seas unable to feed us. It is this: if these things are not a problem, why are we having to spend billions on the problem? Huh? Why are people losing whole communities of homes to ever increasing numbers of wildfires, tornadoes, derechos, and floods? Why, here in Maryland, are the watermen and fishermen going broke and giving up their traditional, generational livelihoods for other ways of earning a living? When I was young, our Chesapeake Bay was a gold mine of oysters, crabs, clams, striped bass, and an almost infinite number of other goodies. Now the bay is 70% dead. That means the lack of oxygen kills off all life forms in Seventy Per Cent of our waters. If you go down to the edges of our bay, rivers, creeks and brooks, you no longer see schools of minnows darting around. No fiddler crabs. No life to marvel at. Remember minnows? The children in my part of this nation no longer have any familiarity with them! When I was still young, Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring. She was RIGHT!
And the young marrieds of today will never have it as good as we did!
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Climate change has to be addressed, but people hate looking at a problem, they cannot solve easily. The Chesapeake Bay is a good example. I grew up on the Eastern Shore in Delaware an the Bay was our playtoy, our sailing heaven, to crab.. to fish, to simply get on the boats and laze around.. Now it is going.. I can remember St. Michaels when the boats would come in, sitting in one of the open air shellfish places.. All of the fish buyers lined up.. cash on delivery and in came oysters, crabs, claims.. fresh and wonderful.. Watching our dinners appear.. Now gone.. Such a shame.
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A Mighty Girl
In celebration of Independence Day, we remember a little known hero of the American Revolutionary War, 16-year-old Sybil Ludington. At approximately 9 pm on April 26, 1777, Sybil, the eldest daughter of Colonel Henry Ludington, climbed onto her horse and proceeded to ride 40 miles in order to muster local militia troops in response to a British attack on the town of Danbury, Connecticut -- covering twice the distance that Paul Revere rode during his famous midnight ride.
Riding all night through rain, Sybil returned home at dawn having given nearly the whole regiment of 400 Colonial troops the order to assemble. While the regiment could not save Danbury from being burned, they joined forces with the Continental Army following the subsequent Battle of Ridgefield and were able to stop the British advance and force their return to their boats.
Following the battle, General George Washington personally thanked Sybil for her service and bravery. Although every American school child knows the story of Paul Revere, unfortunately few are taught about Sybil Ludington's courageous feat and her contribution to war effort.
To introduce your children to this inspiring and underrecognized hero of the Revolutionary War, we recommend "Sybil’s Night Ride," a picture book for children 4 to 8 (http://www.amightygirl.com/sybil-s-night-ride) and "Sybil Ludington’s Midnight Ride," an early chapter book for readers 6 to 9 (http://www.amightygirl.com/sybil-ludington-s-midnight-ride). An illustration from the latter by Ellen Beier is pictured here.
For an excellent book that explores women's contribution to the American Revolution, check out "Founding Mothers" for ages 7 to 12 at http://www.amightygirl.com/founding-mothers
This book is also available in a version for adult readers, "Founding Mothers: The Women Who Raised Our Nation," at http://amzn.to/1rNGymK
In our blog post "'Remember the Ladies' -- A Mighty Girl Celebrates the Fourth of July,” we also highlight numerous excellent books -- both fiction and non-fiction -- about girls and women of the Revolutionary Period: http://www.amightygirl.com/blog/?p=3819
For over 500 stories for children and teens about trailblazing girls and women through history, visit our "Role Models" biography section at http://www.amightygirl.com/books/history-biography/biography
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Ah, but Sybil did not have a poem that was catchy written for her.
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Well, and she was just a girl. How embarrassing!
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Good list Barbara! Thanks for that.
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I just ordered the one picture book about Sybil to be sent to my great grandson Willem. And I had Barnes & Noble send the chapter book about Sybil to my great grandson Ezra! Hooray, and Thank You, Barbara!
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Having spent 10 years in and around Boston, they celebrate all three riders, not just Paul Revere. You want to have fun, go to Lexington, the night of the ride. It is recreated each year along wth the running battle by reenactors. Everyone up so early, you would not believe. A wonderful morning.
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I watched the game, yelling GO U.S.A.! all the way. Such fun! Such excitement! Such excellent soccer. You could tell all the way through that their training and practice made them know just EXACTLY what they were doing and how to anticipate and be where they needed to be at the right time. Nothing at all hap hazard about THEIR game; either our women or the Japanese. Members of my family kept phoning in a state of great enjoyment.
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My husband and I loved the game, too. What athletes those women are. I can't believe how much energy and stamina it'd take to play that long with no breaks. It makes pro football players look like wimps!! ;D
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The U.S. Women's soccer team made history last night after winning the World Cup for the third time. Their prize? TWO MILLION DOLLARS!
Not bad, until you learn that the U.S. Men's team earned EIGHT MILLION, and that was for losing in the first round.
Why? Because according to FIFA's leadership, equal pay for women is "nonsense."
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FIFA administration is so corrupt, apparently, it's truly a crime!
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We are late to the table of FIFA, so those European and South Americann Men make it clear they are in charge and totally corrupt and no one can or will stop them. Ugh
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Steph, if you don't subscribe to Vanity Fair, you will want to grab yourself a copy of the August issue. There is an article about the royal corgis you will love.
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Mark
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I got Vanity Fair on my IPAD.What a really good article.. Very honest and true..
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I have never owned or spent any time with a corgi, but enjoyed the article so much that I felt certain you would love it and get your money's worth from it.
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Actually I read the article on Paul Newmans children yesterday.. What a mess.. I am sorry, but his partner strikes me as sleezy.. The girls and Joanne must be fit to be tied.
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The attacks on Planned Parenthood and the humongous lies being repeated and repeated at the top of the lungs of the male power network running this country are making me seriously ill. Seriously sick to my stomach.
I listened to Joe Scarborough this morning ranting on and on with all of his lung power and drowning out anyone who tried to intervene with the facts. He painted Planned Parenthood as a huge factory providing abortions abundantly, all paid for by taxpayer dollars, and taking away the dignity of human beings by being licensed to freely murder them.
Scheesch!
Joe claims PP should be closed down immediately, and when it is pointed out that they are this country's largest provider of BIRTH CONTROL, and that that cuts way down on abortions, he says there are other clinics that can supply those women.
Others in the towns, cities, counties, and states of those women? All three million and more of them per year now being served by PP? THREE MILLION?
NINETY-SEVEN PER CENT (97%) of Planned Parenthood's services have nothing to do with abortion. And they keep separate records of the three per cent of their work that does involve abortions and make absolutely certain only private funding which has stipulated it may be used for that purpose is involved in providing these services. Not a penny of taxpayer money goes to abortions. Not one red cent. And every year PP saves lives of women through early detection of cancer. Planned Parenthood is all about WOMEN; all about their reproductive systems and keeping them healthy and ALIVE.
In some cases, none of which are anyone else's business and should not be forced to go through the scrutiny of public judgment, abortion is the only answer to saving a woman's very life and providing her children with the loving care of their mother. THE ONLY ANSWER. And MEN want to shut down this last recourse for desperate women. I would remind them that abortion is LEGAL in this nation, as it is in much of the civilized world, but they won't lower their voices and open their ears to THAT important bit of information. Oh no, it is their way or the highway. Or I should perhaps say the DIEWAY, for those women whose fetuses are attacking their bodies and going to perish themselves when they accomplish the killing of their mothers. Like that desperate young mother in Ireland who literally SCREAMED at her doctors to save her and return her to her family, but the State refused and this beautiful young woman died from the poisons circulating in her body, all the while understanding exactly what was killing her. An abortion would have saved her. But these men do not want to hear the facts. They want to remain curled up in the blankets of their vast ignorance of what the problems and possibilities really are in everyday real life when you are born a female.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
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Thank goodness the majority of the Senate put an end to this nonsense - for the moment.
Yes, birth control lessens the liklihood of unwanted pregnancies!!! Pure fact!
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On the plus side - Netflix just announced they will give unlimited PAID leave to any mother or father for the first year after the birth or adoption of a child! WOW!
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yes Netflix impressed me with the announcement.
I am so puzzled as to why people don't read up on the good things that Planned Parenthood does. I have a few catholic friends, who are absolutely terrifying as to the hate displayed by them. But of course they don't want birth control for all of the people.. Just themselves. I am trying to remember the number of my catholic friends, who have more than to children.
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Speaking of that, Rachel Maddow showed a film clip last night of Chris Christie explaining to a group at what seems to be a diner of some sort that he considers himself a "GOOD' Roman Catholic and follower of the Pope, but he practices birth control. He goes on to say: "And not the Rhythm Method, either!" The expression on one of the male diners face is a hoot. I think Christie was making a stab at proving he is his own man, but it was downright embarrassing, and I wasn't even THERE!
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I saw that, MaryPage. The poor fella covered his face in embarrassment. I wonder what Christie's wife thought about that personal revelation? ;)
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Exactly! After all, it takes TWO, in this case, to be a good Catholic couple! She must have been totally mortified at such a public revelation!
Of course, we don't know what we're talking about here, and it may very well be the case that she had given her permission for this. But I doubt it, and I expect you do, as well. It sounded to me like a typical Christie blurting out something without a careful thought to the consequences. Sort of a damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. Which I want, perhaps, in an admiral of the fleet in wartime, but not from a President of these United States!
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I saw some stats over a year ago that said among US Catholics - those who regularly attend Mass - 95% use birth control and do not confess it as a sin.
We all forget there was the Pope's commission on Birth Control that came out in favor of using birth control - the commission had 76 attending for over 2 years - among those appointed were 4 lay couples the remaining members were clergy and cardinals - there were 6 Cardinals, all members of the Curia who used their influence to squash the report that used to be available on Amazon however, Turning Point: The Inside Story of the Papal Birth Control Commission and How Humanae Vitae Changed the Life of Patty Crowley and the Future of the Church written by one of the couples in attendance is still available on Amazon.
The final nail in the coffin was when Pope Paul VI who took over Vatican II after Pope John XXIII died would not allow the discussion to take place during Vatican II along with the discussion that would re-consider marriage for the clergy nor the discussion about revamping the Curia for the twentieth century.
It was after the issue of Birth Control that most of the clergy especially in the South American countries were looking forward to was iced that we had a mass exodus of priests and the recruits for new priests became a trickle that has never recovered.
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Not to mention that the dear sisters have left the church in droves. Well, it sounds as though I am inferring they took off to other places with their suitcases in hand, and that is not the way it was, for the most part. They have died off and/or retired to their mother houses. But the new vocations are not coming back to the parishes and schools. They are staying in their mother houses and doing work for the poor and homeless on their own initiative. One of my daughters teaches French in our local catholic High School. It was over a year ago that she hosted a dinner for the very last nun to leave that school for retirement. No more are coming! It is all lay teachers now, and it makes me so sad. I attended a catholic girls boarding school for two years, and I loved the nuns so very much. So sad that apparently future generations will not have that experience!
My landlord is a dear retired priest, 11 years my junior. We have built the sort of friendship where I can say just about anything, and I give him a bad time about women and the church. He just laughs and is ever so kind to me. He was born in the Ukraine, and his father was a priest. A MARRIED priest. His parents had 5 children, and when they emigrated out of the Ukraine when Father was a boy, the church here allowed the father to remain an active priest. That was in Pennsylvania. It seems there was a deal way back when the church divided into Roman and Eastern Orthodox: the Ukraine could keep their married priests if they stayed with Rome! Who knew! Certainly none of us pure little Catholic Convent girls were told that in Religion classes! My landlord, of course, has never married and never will. But bless his heart, he is such a darling person. He lives upstairs from me.
Speaking of being a pure little Catholic Convent girl, I was married in 1948. By the early winter of 1949 I had been asked to join a "Sewing Circle." Remember those? A bunch of delightful women, all of whom lived in my garden apartment complex in Silver Spring, Maryland. I knew them quite well by the time this occurred. We would take our sewing or, in my case, piles of mending and our sewing baskets and gather in one member's living room and work away while chatting up a storm. Husbands, of course, were babysitting in the cases of those with children. I had none as yet. Well, this particular vivid memory is of just one night. The conversation had gotten around to birth control, with the young woman sitting next to me telling a hilarious story about leaving her diaphragm on the bathroom sink and her mother in law paid a visit. Jean had forgotten it was there, and was mortified when her mother in law asked what on earth it was! We all howled, of course, but I can remember this occasion so well because little old sheltered and sincerely ignorant me truly believed no Catholic would dream of using birth control. And I knew Jean to BE a practising Catholic. So when the opportunity arose, I leaned over and whispered in her ear: "Jean, how CAN you use birth control?" And it was her reply that stunned me and I remember clearly to this very day: Oh, MaryPage, she said: I wouldn't DREAM of telling the priest!" Wow! Well, life has been one long learning process for me ever since!
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MaryPage the exodus of nuns had more to do with what did happen in Vatican II - my sister who was leading the changes required for her Dominican band was one of those who left with suitcase in hand - all the nuns had to re-write their commission and no longer where they to be financially supported by the diocesan. That was when their salary for teaching that had been $1 a year became a real salary although about a half to a third less than the typical teacher salary for the area.
On top of there were not enough younger nuns entering the convent so those who were working as usually teachers or nurses were going to be supporting the older nuns who had no social security since they never worked for a pay check that contributed to SS. Most realized they had to make a decent income to support themselves when they aged and they also realized there was a lot of infighting because of the changes with the older nuns railing over these changes and the loss of community as nuns started in small groups to live in apartments separate from the main convent as most parishes given the new rulings sold off the buildings that housed the nuns.
What was most difficult some of the commissions went back a 1,000 years and for instance the Dominicans had their own 'right' that allowed them their own version of the Mass and their own collection of music not under the Gregorian approved collection - they lost all of that so the community was no longer the community of prayer life they had participated in for their lifetime of service. It was a hard adjustment and all seemed to be based on an economic and male dominated outlook from Rome.
The nuns will never regain what they had but this Pope at least has lifted the yoke that was put on them by the Curia - and the Bank in Rome finally being exposed for what it was probably has something to do with it.
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Good grief - was scrolling for how to confront a condo whose lights are keeping me from using my front rooms and this came up - oh oh oh - So this is how it is done - how to appeal to the inner feeling of victimization in order to propel people without using any of their judgment, compassion, understanding, sorting of the necessary health of the mother - using only a bottomless emotional tornado to stop without thinking - using only the reptilian brain to act on what some see as only one issue - oh my oh my - so this is what we are up against.
http://timetowinabattle.blogspot.com/
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Yes, and they aren't going to stop. :'(
Enjoying your stories.
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With the deep pervasive hubris built into our species, a certain portion of us, finding the sense of a total lack of personal control over this universe our consciousness erupts into, can only conduct their lives with a magical show of drawing and coloring in the world as THEY would have it be. One that makes sense to their stunted perceptions, once they have completely invented it, and that they can cling to with every stubborn certainty they can muster. The mythology they are taught becomes a lifelong comfort and consolation to them. Any attempt to shift their beliefs into eye opening FACTS about who we are, the size of our universe, and our probable demise and defeat as a species throws them into a complete, mud-slinging panic that rules out any sliver of thoughtful logic. The very word Science becomes the name implied to all that is evil and attempting to destroy their dreams of a perfectly functioning Paradise in which they, if they follow THEIR OWN INVENTED RULES, will enjoy well deserved Bliss for an endless eternity.
Well, we are faced with the inevitability of forces that impede and interfere with our forward progress into, we hope, achieving enough wisdom and knowledge to save this planet for our descendants into the unseen future. For every force, there is a counter force. We know that. My frustration runs high, but I can look back and state with certainty that I have tried mightily to LISTEN to the data gathered about our reality and the conclusions drawn by much more highly educated brains than my own, and I have tried to raise a family steeped in the desire to follow the facts. In short, I have done my part on behalf of my fellow human beings, and the only regret I expect to have as I depart this world is that there is no book that can tell me the last chapter of our existence. Bummer!
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Oh Barb, that is a horrid blog.. Ugh..
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We didn't watch either of the debates last night, but we did watch Rachel Maddow. This came on after the first one. She made a point of remarking on the fact that the woman moderator referred to all of the candidates by their titles - "Gov. Perry", "Gov. Jindal", etc., and then called the only woman, "Carly". Guess things haven't changed on Fox either.
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I have noticed that many conservatives and tea party people call our President things like Barry, etc. Disrespectful at best... stupid for sure.. Honor the office no matter what.
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I did watch the debates, and switched back and forth with MSNBC and Rachel Maddow occasionally. I had not picked up on the title thing.
The horror for me was the very usual and, unfortunately, to be expected incomplete or obfuscated answers these politicians were spewing out in response to many, indeed most, of the questions directed at them. I was appalled so many times with this that I rather wish now that I had thought to jot down my reaction each time, but I did not. Particularly vivid to my mind is Scott Walker's answer that no, he is NOT in favor of allowing abortion to save a woman's life. He goes on to aver how important he feels the life and rights of the unborn citizen of this country are, and just sort of slurs off the fate of the woman by saying that there are plenty of "other" remedies for her these days. "OTHER THAN DEATH?", I hurled at my TV! What exactly are you TALKING about here? Get down to the nitty gritty of what the crisis we are talking about here REALLY IS! If a doctor came to you in the waiting room and told you that your wife or daughter was being poisoned by a sepsis that could only be stopped from pumping into her bloodstream and killing her, which was imminent, unless the pregnancy is terminated immediately, what would you ask him to do? If there is, and this occurs more often than we as individuals know about in the medical world, NO OTHER CHOICE? The thing that blows my mind is that if they say absolutely no abortion and the woman dies SO DOES THIS PRECIOUS UNBORN! So the bottom line, it seems to me, is that they are saying the rule is that BOTH must die and that is that! I just don't get it. I don't!
And then this morning on Morning Joe Rick Santorum brought up and repeated and embellished that old fairytale about Planned Parenthood beginning as an organization to commit genocide on the negro race. Again, I am not only horrified at the repetition of untrue hysteria, but beyond amazed that any person who wants to be taken seriously can sit there and repeat that garbage in front of television cameras and the world! Talk about alternative history! And the amazing thing is that this horrendous story has been completely debunked over and over and over again! There must be something in the human being that much prefers to cling to the scary and colorful story, however false it is.
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I just could not do it - having watched these debates that seem to be only an exercise in who flubs first and how often a candidate flubs I get inwardly shaken and then logic says this has nothing to do with being a president - I do not care how often folks try to convince me that your ability to split second handle something is similar to handling an emergency as president - bull - nothing the president says or does is ever split second reaction - he has a corp of folks surrounding his every move to help him stay on the track decided upon in meeting after meeting.
I am ready to see them reinstate the back room politics that gave us a candidate or two - I am so tired of this circus spectacle that has become entertainment on national TV side by side with the football games, wrestling, Saturday Night live and the sitcoms.
As to remarks about women it is all manufactured to get some base unthinking reaction stirred among those who vote what their pastor tells them to vote and so many fall into that trap - they do not have to think or learn or understand more than how to maintain their day to day life so that they put all their emotions and trust into a pastor who can up their dopamine level to a feel good state and any candidate who can tap into activating a dopamine hit gets a vote.
It appears the current area of choice that activates the feel good dopamine is rage, anger, women in control of their bodies, in fact women in control period, immigrants, and the rattling the sabers. All of it is a 21st century form of coercion by affecting the brain reward centers of our brain that a candidate can follow up with mere photos since pictures can do the same job as an experience.
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I read the article - carefully - that you referred to regarding Savita Halappanavar. That was indeed a terrible tragedy. But I know you all are women who value facts, and so much more was wrong with this case than an untimely abortion (which was legal in her case and sanctioned by the Catholic Church). Ms. Halappanavar sought medical treatment late - the staff misdiagnosed her case - she was not properly monitored so that staff did not realize how quickly the infection was spreading and - yes - she needed to have the abortion before her membranes broke. So much went wrong here. She developed an infection (apparently a drug-resistant strain of bacteria) and , since the blood supply of a pregnant woman heavily favors the growing baby, the baby was killed by the infection. She did receive antibiotics orally and intravenously - but too late. Had they begun treatment on the first day, she probably would have survived, though the baby would need to be aborted at any rate.
The videos (have you seen them?) that have prompted the debate about Planned Parenthood are, as Hillary Clinton stated, truly disturbing. Selling the unborn child's organs is barbaric. But so is abortion - the most violent and barbaric procedure we allow in our society - which some people even promote. This last video discussing how to dilate the woman over a two week period in order to get the most intact organs is truly difficult to watch. At what cost to the baby? At what cost to the unfortunate woman? (does she even know she is being put through this painful process for the harvesting of her unborn child?)
If you have not seen for yourself how this 'medical procedure' is done you all might avail yourself of the opportunity to watch one: youtube carries a video, 'The Silent Scream', which covers this well.
Planned Parenthood is not sacrosanct, is it? It is an agency - receiving public funds. Surely it is not above receiving oversight, is it? Community Health Centers cover much of the same activity - and funds were only going to be diverted to those already operating, so no funding toward women's health would have been taken away. And though the statistic is frequently given that only 3% of the services of Planned Parenthood involve abortion, their site claims that 1 in 4 women 14 - 44 will receive an abortion in their lifetime; that's a pretty hefty number. 'The life of the mother' accounts for less than 1% of abortion cases, about 1% involves 'rape'; the most common reason given is that the pregnancy occurs at a time the woman feels unable (conditions relating to poverty) or unwilling (she is engaged in life experiences she is unwilling to interrupt) to care for a child.
As far as accusations about genocide: before President Obama's re-election an audio tape surfaced shown to be from Planned Parenthood where the woman from the agency was accepting a donation from a man who was giving it 'on the condition' that it be used for aborting 'black' babies, which she happily accepted. Also, 2/3 of Planned Parenthood centers are located in minority - predominately African American - neighborhoods. Also, abortions are performed on black women disproportionately to their numbers in society at large. These are shown from their own statistics.
Whatever your stance on abortion, the practice requires oversight - as all medical practices do - and must stay within legal - and medical - limits, for the sake of both the child and the mother.
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No more.. There are also Planned Parenthood around large universities,, Many many women got their first birth control from them.. I know in my dorm, there was a number in the office and it was definitely not abortion since I am old enough that that was illegal and the girls themselves had a number for a doctor who was helping them.. But Planned Parenthood.. the good guy,, I do so wish, that this stupid young man who is manipulating the videos would stop. Please please, be for or against abortion .. but don't tell me what to do.
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History:
In the Bible, a trial by ordeal is prescribed for a Sotah (a wife whose husband suspects that she was unfaithful to him) in which she drinks "water of bitterness," which can be interpreted to result, if she is guilty, in the abortion or miscarriage of a pregnancy she may be carrying.
Ancient silver coins from Cyrene depict a stalk of Silphium. The ancient Greek colony of Cyrene at one time had an economy based almost entirely on the production and export of the plant silphium, a powerful abortifacient. Silphium figured so prominently in the wealth of Cyrene that the plant appeared on coins minted there. Silphium, which was native only to that part of Libya, was overharvested by the Greeks and was effectively driven to extinction. The standard theory, however, has been challenged by a whole spectrum of alternatives (from an extinction due to climate factors, to the so-coveted product being in fact a recipe made of a composite of herbs, attribution to a single species meant perhaps as a disinformation attempt).
In aboriginal Australia, plants such as cymbidium madidum, petalostigma pubescens, Eucalyptus gamophylla were ingested or the body/vagina was smoked with Erythropleum chlorostachyum.
As Christianity and in particular the institution of the Catholic Church increasingly influenced European society, those who dispensed abortifacient herbs found themselves classified as witches and were often persecuted in witch-hunts.
Medieval Muslim physicians documented detailed and extensive lists of birth control practices, including the use of abortifacients, commenting on their effectiveness and prevalence. The use of abortifacients was acceptable to Islamic jurists provided that the abortion occurs within 120 days, the point when the fetus is considered to become fully human and receive its soul.
In English law, abortion did not become illegal until 1803. English folk practice before and after that time held that fetal life was not present until quickening. Women who took drugs before that time would describe their actions as 'restoring the menses' or 'bringing on a period'." Abortifacients used by women in England in the 19th century (not necessarily safe or effective) included diachylon, savin, ergot of rye, pennyroyal, slippery elm, nutmeg, rue, squills, and hiera picra
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There is so much discussion about abortion - a legal procedure as determined by the Supreme Court. Not much discussion about the selling of fetal parts. Senator Collins got it right -- should be a discussion on how fetal parts are obtained for research -- are they being sold by Planned Parenthood? How is this regulated?
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this is the company my good friend arranged with before she died - she was 95 but the best thing she had to offer was her skin as when her husband died his body also was donated -
Mostly young children and infant burn victims benefit since they cannot grow enough skin to reapply the many grafts needed from their own body so for the early grafts that will peel off the donated skin of those who see their bodies as more valuable to others and who have donated their bodies will provide that necessary skin.
Here is their web site
http://www.lifelegacy.org/?gclid=Cj0KEQjw9JuuBRC2xPG59dbzkpIBEiQAzv4-G75fd4EY1kgLNZAQmBAdK7DJWb_g9hQugxuGgEhlpcAaAjP48P8HAQ
the thing is you have to make arrangements beforehand with a small private funeral home because the large national funeral homes will not do it or if they will they charge almost as much as doing a funeral - the small funeral home only charges a nominal very nominal fee - the body within 2 hours is packed in ice and shipped off - in about 6 to 8 weeks after the body has been harvested for what is valuable the remains are cremated and sent back to the family. There is no charge for the family - My friend's husband was an officer in the Navy during WWII and so his cremated remains after his body was harvested for what was valuable was then buried in the wall at Arlington.
There are several companies that will take bodies to be used in research - I think MaryPage has said she is set for her body to be donated for science -
The concept of using bodies for more than burial or cremation is a very old practice and laws have protected the industry for a long time - there is some hysteria now being pumped up as if an aborted fetus is a full grown baby with our desire to cradle the child in our arms - which at 4 months we know that is not so and the remains must be disposed of - I had 3 mis-carriages, one when I was 3 and a half months along - at the time no one even asked me but the hospital took care of it - another one while I was at home, about 2 months along while I was on the potty - certainly as painful a loss the idea of these remains doing good would have been a comfort and since there is not enough to bury, the solution is cremation or more comforting, allowing the remains to be useful no different than if you were 4 years old or 40 years old or 84 years old.
This is the link to the US Health and Human Resource site that lists the body donor parts that can be donated.
http://www.organdonor.gov/about/donated.html
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Years ago, a very dear friend had her body to be donated to a medical school.. She wanted it to be useful to others.. Not sure I could, but Anne loved the idea..and when she died of a sudden heart attack, her husband did just what she wanted.
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I signed up with the Georgetown University School of Medicine clear back in 1983. When I die, the daughter who lives nearby will call their phone number on a card I carry (I had it laminated), and they will come to fetch my body and take it away at no cost to my family. It makes me feel good to know that I can be of some use to medical science. When this Catholic school is finished with my remains, they will be cremated and returned to my family for disposal as I have stipulated. I cannot stress strongly enough how this makes me feel I have made the very last possible effort to assist mankind that I can make.
There are very few graveyards or burial places still in place after hundreds of years, let alone thousands. The very famous remain in place longer than the unimportant to history, but even those tend to be ploughed under for development eventually. Remember, just a year or so back they discovered the bones of a one time King of England under a paved over parking lot! So, while it makes people FEEL better, and I am all for comforting the grieving, as goodness knows I have said goodbye to every single member of my family older than I and too many younger, I do think burial a waste of money and, in the long run, effort. I am making an attempt to explain myself here, and my feelings and reasoning, but I am not in any way attempting to sell you my approach to this delicate matter, so please, please do not take offense.
I do not quite understand about companies that do this. That is something I am totally unfamiliar with. I do know that the National Institutes of Health uses stem cells from many sources, including aborted fetuses, for ever so important cures. They have been used for vaccines that have saved multimillions of living children. I have three, THREE, dear members of my family suffering the ravages of Parkinson's, and we are all much encouraged and hopeful hearing that NIH is actually in the last stages of finding a cure for that from these stem cells. I do have a close relationship to Planned Parenthood, and I know that they absolutely do not "sell" any materials from fetuses. Only the expenses involved in transportation to the labs working with these cells is reimbursed.
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My advance directive is that any and all body parts that can be used (skin, ligaments, bone, veins, whatever) should be harvested, and then the rest cremated. Recycle, reuse!
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I have cremation for it all and then my sons can decide what to do with the ashes. I do so dislike funerals with the body present.
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Some thoughts:
this stupid young man who is manipulating the videos would stop.: Steph, this is not a 'stupid young man' (it's investigative reporting) - and what ANY agency/group is doing 'when no one is looking' is important to KNOW!! He is NOT telling you what to do - just what they are doing! And, of course there are other Planned Parenthood centers, especially in University towns.
The concept of using bodies for more than burial or cremation is a very old practice : that's true - but it is 'apples to oranges' here. The last video showed a discussion about second trimester babies (the older the better since the organs are better developed) and how to change the procedure for extracting them so that organs are not damaged. This means a series of dilations to extract the baby 'whole' and then dismember her/him. This is illegal because, generally, babies must be killed before extraction to prevent the possibility of a live birth. This is known as feticide and requires that the baby be injected - usually with potassium chloride, or something similar - and then dismembered and suctioned out of the uterus into a bag and disposed of in Bio-Waste containers. But, no chemical can be used in the case of getting organs useful for research; that means delivering the baby at four - six months when there is a very real chance of a live birth.
Scientists hypothesize that fetal stem cells are the answer to repairing/replacing a myriad of damaged body parts. And, in theory, since they are 'pristeen' and 'undifferentiated', that would seem likely. But that is just not so. Adult stem cells have proven to be effective in so many conditions; and there is no problem with rejection since the cells are normal to the patient. And they are very very abundant in every human body! There simply is no need to cannibalize fetal remains. And - again - we are talking about babies that can - and have - lived outside the mother's body.
" The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends feticide be performed "before medical abortion after 21 weeks and 6 days of gestation to ensure that there is no risk of a live birth".[12] In abortions after 20 weeks, an injection of digoxin or potassium chloride to stop the fetal heart can be used to achieve feticide.[13][14] In the United States, the Supreme Court has ruled that a legal ban on intact dilation and extraction procedures does not apply if feticide is completed before surgery starts.[14] The possibility of unsuccessful feticide—resulting in birth of a live infant—is a malpractice concern.[15]"
What about it being a moral concern?
The world was enraged at a dentist killing Cecil the lion, as they should be - it was horrendous! And years ago people became upset over the fact that lobsters are boiled alive - and make a shriek; until scientists assured us that they could feel no pain.
But the fetus DOES experience pain and no one seems to care. Is it any wonder that we see such callousness, such disregard for human life, all around us? And how much of that responsibility falls on us as women? Surely that is at least an issue worthy of self-reflection, self-examination?
Let us not make Simon and Garfunkle prophets in The Fighter when they sang:
"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
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I have read quite a bit about the stupid young man and saw how he manipulates his film and lies to the people being interviewed, so I have not changed my opinion a bit on him. You and I just look at things quite differently and always will. Not a big deal.. What I regard as totally unacceptable you don't and vice versa. To me the biggest sin is our penchant for interfering in other peoples ward.
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I agree with you, Steph. The organization that sent people full of hatred for all the great good that Planned Parenthood does for the health and welfare of any woman who comes to their door seeking help and advice owns every attribute and skill of a network of spies infiltrating an enemy territory for the purpose of sabotage. It has been proved that the tapes are heavily edited in order to present the Big Lie about Planned Parenthood. I am not skilled in this, but I am told that it is extremely easy to accomplish this these days. People who will encourage their followers to check their websites for the names & addresses of doctors who perform abortions and go out and murder them in cold blood in their homes and churches are fanatic beyond redemption. Pro LIFE? I don't think so. I respect anyones deeply held angst regarding abortion, but cannot condone these outrageous and unwarranted attacks on the integrity of Planned Parenthood. Nor am I able to understand the recognition of any authority other than my very own: me, mine, myself, as to the health of my body and the functioning of my reproductive parts.
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Telling others what to do and what is wrong when they have never had even a miscarriage nor where in the position to have to struggle with an abortion is like telling an astronaut how to live if they became detached from their space vehicle -
Once anyone can imagine themselves floating in space, alone, with no hope, then talk about what a woman should or not do about her body -
Problem is since they have never had as much as a miscarriage they have this huge fantastical imagination as to what is happening and based on this imagination they simplify the choice so they can judge just as those in the Bible who are asked who is free from sin in order to continue to stone the one they have determined is worthy of being stoned.
The bible is an interesting book - you can find phrases to justify anything and ignore the phrases that talk about judging another or what is said in the Bible about abortions - I wonder what ever happened to their Christian love when they are so busy condemning another based on their idea of how others 'should' live a life they are not willing to live. These are the very folks who cut food stamps, cut Head Start, want to cut 'Obamacare', want war with Iran rather than support the treaty, disrespect the sacrifice of a servicemen in either life or in death, and yet, they want others to take them seriously when they talk about pulling the rug out from under women who need the kind of health care that they will never have to experience themselves.
That is still a bitter pill for me - I was a young mom with two babies - my youngest a year old and the oldest 2 years old when I had my first miscarriage - I was 3 and 1/2 months along and it was no picnic - I was alone as my husband was driving the babies 90 miles away to be taken care of by my mother - after the worst of it, late at night a priest came to visit - all I wanted was for him to baptize this I assumed formation of a child - and he told me he couldn't that at this point there was nothing there to baptize - I was incredulous - was traumatized - I could not understand - and he tried to explain there was just a lump of tissue and a huge clots - that there was nothing he could baptize -
I went inward and was devastated - that was the only thing that was going to bring me comfort and it was denied because there was nothing there - all these photos we have been seeing for the last 50 years are nothing but propaganda - I have yet to hear of one priest who has EVER baptized a fetus - if they were so concerned then they would be having a Chaplin on hand to baptize all these so called babies that are aborted, especially those lat term abortions taking place because of the potential danger to the mother who wants the child and yet, no Baptism is performed - and so all this is - is a witch hunt to control women when they are at their most vulnerable - and that is the shame of it - when a women is at her most vulnerable they spill their viper poison at her as if she was in insect, with about the same respect for her life as if a women is a fly, mosquito or roach - they cause all this angst and act so un-Christian over something they have never experienced themselves.
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I am not Catholic, so I don't understand the baptism issue. But I am terribly sorry for your loss, BarbStAubrey. What a horribly difficult and sad event. I had a similar experience (though not with the added horror of facing it alone!) but a gynecologist later was convinced - by reviewing the data - that I hadn't been pregnant at all but that, in my case, it was a large fibroid tumor. But I can still remember acutely the horrible loss.
Still...the law is written this way because doctors know second term babies can - and frequently do - survive outside the mother's body. At any rate, I think we can all agree that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral. So the struggle goes on......
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Back in the dark ages before I had children, I had a fetus die inside me. I was seven months along. This was 1949, and they wanted me to go into labor. I went home and died a million deaths before labor began two weeks later. In what seemed all respects, I had the usual routine of rush to hospital and prepping and delivery, only with no pain relief "just in case." Right up to the end it seemed we were all hoping that just because I was feeling no baby move any more and the doctors got no heartbeat, something might turn out differently. Well, it didn't. The baby had the cord wrapped around its neck several times. It had been extremely active. It was a boy.
My mother in law immediately called her priest to see about having it baptized and buried. He refused. I understand the church has changed their position on this now, but back then they would not do it. She begged and pleaded. She even tried other priests. No go. She was devastated. I didn't really care about those details; I wanted my baby, and was inconsolable. My grandmother told me the Blessed Mother has a special dormitory for such infants, and they are protected under her blue cloak. The church told me they stay in Limbo for all eternity. This was followed by three miscarriages, and then they found I had low thyroid and I started having real live babies that filled me with such delight and awe that I simply could not believe they were MINE. To KEEP! But for three long years I sobbed upon waking in the mornings and upon going to sleep at night.
Now I am a very old woman, and expecting that bus at any moment that will swing in and whisk me off to where my beloved family have all gone previously, leaving me behind. I leave a will that leaves everything I have to my EIGHT children. I also leave THIRTEEN granddaughters and TWENTY-FIVE great grandchildren.
But I am fierce about the fact that my body belongs to me, not the state. Not the church, not my community. I was born a prisoner in this box of flesh. I cannot get out of it until that bus finally shows up. But no one, NO ONE, has the right to sentence me to carry and give birth to an unwanted pregnancy. Or any other woman of my species to do so. The God of my understanding does not demand this, either. As a matter of fact, the God I am acquainted with laments the fact that the beings of my species are constantly killing their own kind, including those same beings insisting the women whose pregnancies are killing them without the intervention of an abortion should go ahead and die rather than being saved with the assistance of medical science.
I have never had an abortion. Every woman hopes she will never have to have one.
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Yea Limbo - wasn't that a comfort...god...
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yes, I sincerely believe that the great majority don't want an abortion, but sometimes life gets beyond complicated.. and in the case of incest or rape,,, the horror or continuing grief is beyond awful.
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Both incest and rape are committed by monstrous evil urges and instincts. Why anyone in their right minds truly believes their version of god WANTS these instincts to proliferate through the seed left to grow within the bodies of female victims of these wicked incursions, I simply cannot fathom. Furthermore, the thought that MY precious body, the only one I have or ever will have, which the dear nuns and others taught me as a mere girl is a holy temple which must be kept pure, is to be demanded by this god for nine months of gestation of the progeny of my unwanted attacker is an unspeakable indictment of that precious god. Oh no, My Dears, those notions were entirely invented by the very cunning minds of ancient human thugs who won control over the larger number of females of their tribe by all of the ritual battles we see in National Geographic films exposing the mating habits of other mammals. Aggression and violence win the field and the females, every time. Little girls are carefully taught that Might does not make Right, and are then suddenly subjected to a world in which Might controls the very functions of their bodies and rules that they must carry and give birth to the monster's progeny. I don't find ANYthing about this process that is desired by a loving God. The God of MY understanding does not embrace the unspeakable torment and then sentence the broken victim to the punishment of nine months of continuous further torment followed by a lifetime of grief.
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oh so very well said..
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I see in my morning newspaper that an ELEVEN (11) year old girl in Paraquay has been delivered of a baby girl (the mother being but a baby herself) by c-section there. The GOVERNMENT refused to allow her to have an abortion. She was raped by her stepfather, who is apparently in jail awaiting trial, if there ever is one. Women of this planet should weep and feel drenched with frustration. Why it is that men make the rules regarding matters they never have, never do, and never will experience for themselves? Who gave committees of men the right to dominion over MY body? Apparently this was my birthright: that men own the reproductive functions of my body. Freedom is imaginary.
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Part of our problems are the many many passive women who permit males to decide their lives.
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Thousands of years of having submission forced into the female of the homo sapiens species and the beaten down herd mentality of the females of the species homo has descended from has put genes that carry down even to a huge number of women of today, who, due both to these genes and to cultural mores taken for granted in the communities they are born into, actually take hope and pleasure from abusive treatment from males, feeling at least they are being singled out for attention and therefore must be admired and found attractive. One huge wave is in the making culture-wise, and it is in the making in Africa, where ever so slowly but SURELY the old hobbling of women for their entire lifetimes via genital mutilation is FINALLY becoming realized for what a disaster it has been and condemnation of it is taking hold and making good strides. It will take at least another generation or two to wipe it out, but those women who have raised their daughters without this ghastly physical handicap are exulting in their newly found freedom and abilities. With an entire continent finally freeing over half of their entire populations by stamping out this horrible custom, Africa will become a vibrant continent and contribute much to the human condition. Here are some books on the subject, and there are many, many more:
https://www.google.com/#q=book+about+female+genital+mutilation&tbm=shop
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This was my very favorite book on this subject, and also one of my favorite books EVER! I strongly recommend every woman read it, if she hasn't done so already. Together, we can change the world!
A book written by acclaimed writer and journalist Aimee Molloy about Molly Melching’s work, However Long the Night: Molly Melching’s Journey to Help Millions of African Women and Girls Triumph, was published on April 30, 2013. The book shares Molly’s personal experiences that brought her to Africa nearly 40 years ago, the inspiring people she has met along the way, and why she decided to stay. It brings to life the story of Tostan’s founding and the incredible community-led movement for transformative social change being seen in Africa.
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http://www.societyforthestudyofwomenphilosophers.org/Women_Philosophers_Start.html
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That's an interesting site Barbara. I'll have to spend some time there.
Jean
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that is my sister Kate -
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Wow, Barb! I AM impressed. You must receive much Joy from her.
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We try and now with the internet we have re-established a relationship - we led very different lives.
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mark
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Women are making a huge difference in this world. Hurrah for those two who just completed the Ranger Course at Fort Benning. In the latest The New Yorker a splendid article about Christiana Figueres and Global Warming conferences. Another amazing woman to add to the list! This one has one blue eye and one brown. I've never seen that in real life, although I have previously read about it. So I Google Imaged her and found some great pictures.
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MaryPage we may want to be careful here - bunch of guys that were and one that is a ranger explained that the program was altered because General wanted to have the acclaim of women rangers - there were about 10 different changes noted including the weight of a backpack and the privacy shelters built over trenches - I do not remember all the changes but it is evidently the talk among rangers who are dissing civilians for their naiveté - at first when I started to read these messages I thought it was male ego and sour grapes till there among those posting a couple of guys I knew who were not prone to have any issues with women.
Sounds too much like quietly gearing us up for getting women to see personal advancement so that the next call to arms will have smart women joining and it also suggests that the powers that be are slowly gearing up.
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I think that the women will be able to prove that they are useful in the rangers. Pure strength is not the deciding factor for winning the new type of warfare. Only drawback is the ever present threat of rape in warfare.
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According to this group of men who were and one is currently a ranger that were talking to each other and a couple of civilians that they knew the job requires so much energy and sleep deprivation that to take the time and energy to help with creating privacy for the women meant the teams energy was diverted and in order to meet standards the entire graduating team's operated with lower standards and that is why the news clips of the group show such somber faces because they know and feel politics trumped over pride in standards.
It is difficult to decide what is the best approach - and yes, for women to be more useful because of this training is a boost to the armed services and one class having lowered standards with men using up their little sleep recovery time to help build shelters is not overall a problem when there are graduating classes after graduating classes of active rangers who had graduated with the more intensive training - At first reading their conversation I thought it could be male ego bruising but I soon realized their anger is toward the gullibility of the public that they call citizens to what they feel was the dumbing down of something they took great pride in the standards that were set to be a ranger.
My friend who died this Spring, her niece who recently moved back into the area - she is Col. Jeannie Flynn Leavitt, a decorated fighter pilot and the Air Force's first female wing commander. That job although grueling as any warrior's job is not requiring the physical intensity of a ranger and so I can see women promoted to senior positions but I wonder now after reading their concerns if this was the best approach to include woman among the men in this specialty forces. I can also see how just by the effort required by the other men to make it possible to include women that it may be a way to teach respect for a women's sexuality since we know during any intense physical activity men automatically are aroused and this has been a basis that is the excuse used for the rape of so many women in the service.
We shall see what we shall see as the saying goes but this was a bit that the news does not share which makes us realize how gullible we are which now I cannot help but wonder how many times are we not getting the whole story on many issues.
Where it is with a sense of justification that women can do things that were not open to them because of their gender I can see the lowering of standards in order to make special accommodations takes something away from those who took pride in achieving excellence even if Billy Jean proved women can be winners among men in physical achievements - if the intensity of endurance is compromised then that leaves guys attempting to feel pride in a dumbed down program who are also a lessor prepared group.
My hope is that the full explanation for why has not been made clear to those who were talking and a general has something up his sleeve more than the desire to make a name for himself - and yes, these two women will be far more valuable to whatever their job than if they had not experienced the intensity of the program. I think that was what was being said as double talk by the defense secretary when he let it be known that he will decide if they will serve in the elite ranger corp.
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I think this is a good teaching moment to talk about "is it lowering standards or is just doing it differently?" It's possible that some women can not carry as much weight as some men, but how often is it necessary to carry that weight? Can it be handled in a different way? They are problem solvers after all, solve the problem. Must they build women's quarters? How often are they in an area long enough to have to build quarters - it seems to me that a different bush to go behind can be "quarters." Etc etc. I know any women who are going to try to go through Ranger or Seal training are not going to be prissy about their environment or expect any leniency from the guys. the same arguments have been thrown up when Harry Truman said integrate the troops and the answer was "white soldiers will not take orders from 'Negro' soldiers." Well, look how that turned out. Then it was men will not take orders from women officers, well, that seems to not be a problem, she is not a woman, she is whatever insignia is on her uniform. Then is was "we can't have gays in the units, it will create all kinds of disruption!" Except that Denmark had been integrated gays into their units for 20 yrs and did not have a problem. Neither have we, except from the haters that create the disruptions, not the Blacks, or the women, or the gays!
I recall when working for the Dept of Army in the 80s there was a typical comment made by a Congressman that he was concerned if women were in combat, or were fighter pilots, etc - as tho women had never been in combat - that men would put themselves in danger to assist a woman. A woman who was a helicopter pilot in Nicaragua - remember our "fight" with N during the Reagan years that turned out to be Oliver North's war of trading munitions/cash for hostages? - anyway, she trained other pilots, but was not supposed to be "in combat." She responded to a reporter's relaying the Congressman's comment, "I've found that if my copter went down, the guys would be crawling over me to get out of it, not helping me out." When I talked to the enlisted soldiers that I worked with about it their comment was that "everyone becomes a part of the team and is not thought of as men and women."
I have been astonished at how backward present day military behaviors seem to be when thinking of the progress I thought was being made in the 80s and 90s. One of my first tasks was to train everybody at Ft Dix, civilian and military in Prevention of Sexual Harassment. Now, there were some hard heads who argued in classes that they were being picked on, and they were just teasing, etc. etc. but the Command was solidly behind gender equality and punishing sexual harassment and everybody knew it. Since that was 20 and 30 years ago, the new officer corps would all be trained in those behaviors and should have enough experience with women in the corps that they should have acclimated to the environment and behaving themselves.
Of course, the most horrendous of the sexual harassment cases in the last 15 yrs seem to have come out of the Navy and Air Force and I'm not sure they were as diligent in their training as the Army was, and they may have given it up altogether in the 21st century.
I have a feeling Barb, that there is a little bit of obfuscation on both sides of the reports we have heard about these two women and the men they trained with. We really do need to read/hear many different viewpoints and come to our own conclusions about what is "truth", as I always advised my students about the world of the press and especially when we are hearing about anything that is politic.
Jean
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Jean,I am glad that you could chime in with facts. I have been disturbed with some of the reactions. The women who want to be rangers or seals are not asking for leniency as far as I have heard.. We have certain types who can always act as if they are being helpful, but in reality are knocking down women or gays.. Make an even battlefield.. Certain tasks you must be able to do.. The carrying of packs is one of those yeah but situuations.
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Yes, I too wish however, my concern is having prepared troops and if this is true what I see is we do not usually handle for instance, 60 pound packs - but what I understand is to be strong enough that in the heat of battle you can take care of yourself fighting the enemy while carrying another wounded soldier on your back - the adrenalin to do that is fine but as I understood the program it was to be like exercising in the morning - we do not run during the day for any thing unless in a big city where you run to catch public transportation and yet, many run every morning for strength building and that is what I thought the carrying of 60 pound packs was about - building strength so that those times when you need to do the extra ordinary it is not adrenalin you are depending upon.
And yes, I remember all the times that including women was thought to be the end of the world - and I am sure there is some of that going on now - but then I also have seen the dumbing down of our students when they decided what they should learn rather than follow the classic curriculum and I am seeing the increasing loss of pride - to cater to that pride by putting women down is not the answer and is the humiliation we are all reacting to because it appears to be 'the' tool we are rightfully wanting changed - What I am concerned about is that to lesson preparations that have pushed men to the limit is not the answer either.
If both sexes could handle the extreme equally I think we would see women playing in national football with the men and we would not have separate events for men and women in order to win an Olympic Medal. The point of this program I was under the impression was equivalent if not more than being an ever ready Olympiad - yes, there are many many jobs in the service that are not dependent upon physical brawn that could be given an elite status with elite preparedness that yes, smacks of separate but equal - but the Olympics has many events that are separate but equal and winning a medal in women's events is no less valued.
As to building the shelter as I understood it they are at the end of their tether and will not be allowed enough sleep to fully recover - every speck of energy is involved in maintaining their ability to function so that an extra nightly duty required by a team that takes away from their one focus and inadequate body repair time in order to use all their energy to preform the mission, needs to be addressed.
As I understand it the Rangers are not needed as an everyday tactical fighting group during war but they are needed for special events during war so they must be ever ready - a tech army may be efficient however, we are not fighting armies with technology - we did not 'win' the latest wars with all of our technology nor did we overwhelm the enemy with a physical might and so I just think it is not prudent to lesson the demands of physical preparation -
If women can do this job as it was designed than by all means but to bring added duties to a team and to be less practiced in carrying weight seems like a loss of readiness. Girls can play tag football and even play with early football teams but once the guys are older teens into young manhood girls cannot keep up the physical side of the game - they are great tacticians and that is what I see in the rangers, they are not meant to be a tactical superior group - they are as physically ready or more, with no season off time as enjoyed by any professional football player.
I just do not see this one as a typical argument of what girls can do - there are some very strong determined girls that should have their opportunity but I think this one needs more thought because lessoning the demands is not going to build pride. I understand the Navy Seals have successfully integrated women in that program - what are the differences in expectations between the programs - there has not been any chatter that the SEAL program was changed to accommodate women.
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I agree with much that you say Barbara. However, to your comment "If both sexes could handle the extreme equally I think we would see women playing in national football with the men and we would not have separate events for men and women in order to win an Olympic Medal." I can't imagine even if we had a team of "Amazon" women that they guys would ever "allow" them to play professional football! Or compete with men in what they consider the "male" sports. We are just getting our first "male sports" officials and coaches for goodness sakes! That would be too degrading to some of them because it's still too often assumed that being anything like a woman is demeaning to men. Being beaten in anything by a woman is considered by many men to be demeaning. Marriages where wives make more money then husbands is considered demeaning to the husband by many. Taking care of children, cleaning the house, doing the dishes, changing diapers - still men who do that get teased by some others who think that is too womanish, OR HEAVEN FOR BID, they are a doormat for the wife. (that was the nicest phrase I could think to use in the context :-X) And it is obvious that many men think is perfectly o.k. to slap, hit, beat a woman if she is not "behaving properly" to him.
Boys still get called "sissies", sometimes by their fathers!!! These days some may say they are accusing them of being gay, as though that is not just as wrong as the old indication that the boy was acting like a GIRL. We've just seen the commercial "like a girl" trying to defeat that attitude, but I think it's a looooonnngg way off when many men will not think that being compared to a girl is insulting. The most depressing thing for me, as I have probably said on here before, is that in the 1970s I thought all those attitudes would have dissipated by 2015!!!! We took a huge step backwards in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. I am very discouraged even though I acknowledge that there have been many individual steps of progress.
It just exasperates me that we can't look at each human being as an individual and decide what they can have the opportunity to try by what abilities they have, not by who they are.
Jean
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Ouch - that may be true for some guys but not what I see - but then most young men I see in high school get the sit down about treating women with respect and how they develop differently - but then is this really about the guys who do not want their 'manhood' threatened versus the many who want the best for both women and men - there is a loud minority who champion their view of football and even among the player there are those who do not respect women but that kind of bullying is a different agenda than women having access to all they can be.
We can either go after the bullies or we can push to have women included inside what was closed doors - however, some of those doors are closed because of the difference in physical needs and abilities. I think we need to choose what is a closed door because of tradition and not because we want to take on the bullies.
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I believe it is a systematic problem - remember the slogan "the personal is political." I do see many young men, including my son who is a high school football coach and for two years had a young woman on his team, who have respect for women and believe in equality. I do not think they are close to being a majority. I also think there are a lot of men who think they have respect for women, but participate in watercooler jokes about women, or would highly upset if they thought they had been bested, or demeaned by a woman's behavior in a way that if it was one of "their boys" would not upset them as highly. The popular use of the b.... word - which I find highly offensive and believe we need to campaign to remove it from public conversation in the same way we have done with the n..... word - is symbolic of what I am voicing.
Women are still highly regarded as sex objects rather than human beings (check out some popular music lyrics, or see most of the new tv programs - including the beloved Scandal! Does she have to have sex with the president anywhere and everywhere? Was that a necessary storyline? And yes, that was written and produced by a woman - we are not immune to the systemic sexism and women-demeaning statements that we hear all around us.) How about that 72 cents we make for every dollar the comparable male makes? That's clearly saying "you are not as valuable as he is." Think of all the voices you hear about "actual rape", men saying they have the right to control women's bodies, and oh, I could go on and on.
You say that determining women's opportunities and capabilities is a different issue than men being threatened by women, I just see them as two spots on a spectrum of behavior and attitude about women - at the moment. I was hoping in the 70s that we would come to the point where women could objectively be assessed by their capabilities, I don't see that happening for a long, long time and in the meantime I think it is difficult to judge whether these are objective statements that are being made about ability.
end of rant! ;D ;D
Jean
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Haha - OK I hear you - for me I like to separate because I do see more guys like your son and I put in another category those who must bully anyone they see as weaker not just physically but socially and of course they are the ones who continue their ancient fear that turns into a put down of woman -
Yes, there are men that do have both characteristics but then there are so many who are not bullies and still think women are less and who can be more easily changed with insight - more than education but the second part of education when you can ID and own what you learn - I like giving them the attention -
The others are dealing with issues that I am not confident is exclusively about women's place - I think it is only one of many issues that are part and parcel of most conservative followers who need to dominate using the traditional ways of getting more. Ancient parts of our brains still exist and there is a clear payoff to putting others down - the more you bully, the higher you’ll rise in social ranks, and the more offspring you’ll have. That is a much more difficult change to make but with large number of help from those men who get it we can have a changed society - already we are seeing some small grudgingly change among those who bully women in the national football league.
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Did none of you catch the actual news conference on TV that a whole slew of the new ranger grads gave? You appear not to have done. The praise the men spoke about for the women in the program was wonderful to hear. One spoke up and said that he was at the end of his rope on the last march, and he begged for a volunteer to take some of the weight he was carrying, or he wasn't going to make it. The only one who volunteered was one of the women, and she carried his weight AND HERS for the rest of the march. He and the other men praised the women to the skies.
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As for our national game of football, I for one hope that women are too smart to even want to be players. I am one who believes the "sport" is barbarian and warlike in its physical destruction of players, and that it degrades our American value system that we have mindless hordes of supposedly civilized people out there screaming to see these teams tackle one another and draw blood and break bones and cause permanent brain injuries. We are identical to the crowds attending the Roman games where lions ate Christians alive and gladiators fought to the death. Also the same blood lust brought crowds to public hangings, beheadings, and disembowelings. Sickens my soul, it does! We should stick to games where mayhem is not enticing and encouraging the blood lust present in the genes of the most depraved of our species.
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I agree. I would much prefer that my grandsons join the swim team, much healthier and they can do it for allof their lives! Altho i do appreciate the logistics of a good college football teams plays, both offense and defense. It's rather like a chess game.
No, i didn't see the news conference. But i'm not surprised at the comment.
BY THE WAY I like your webcam views of the harbor. :)
Jean
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Yes, I saw the ranger who gave credit for the women and as I say the guys chatting were saying it was a show for the citizens - so I am not sure what to believe - but I did not pick up any malice or women bashing or even any sense of jealousy but a disgust with what they knew that they believe took down the program to accommodate a General wanting the kudos for graduating the first women.
We will probably never know - and as long as whatever happened keeps the army moral where it needs to be I am fine my big concern is that by making this kind of publicity is it part of a plan to entice more women into the service since the guys are weary and only those with no opportunities are joining. Where as if women see this as an opportunity to reach greater heights plus they are usually more educated and the army needs the build up they would be ideal candidates because those that have the money are eying war as soon as Obama leaves the stage.
If you notice the world wide economy is taking a hit and having a war has been the cure for the last couple of wars. I just do not see this as a disconnected happening - time will tell what happens.
Yep national televised football gets more mean every year - but the kids playing football in high school appear to be having a good time and they appear to be more about the game than the brutal hits. Probably because their young bodies could not take it but it does make for a fun Friday night especially in all these small towns where there is nothing else not even a movie theater and the whole town comes out for the game.
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Thank heaven, but ever since I graduated from college, I have never seen another football game. Both of my sons were swimmers, weight lifters, sailers and track and field. All things you can do forever.. I dislike all football and note that there has recently been some articles on high school football players with too many concussions already. Sad.
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I love football, but think that the coaches and owners have let winning overrule common sense and health issues. They're now finding that soccer has the same kinds of injuries with concussions and other injuries.
I think it's the "winning coach at any cost" mentality that has to change...whether it's about health of the athletes or their "academic" life...given the scandals at places like UNC Chapel Hill, etc. When Univ. donors and admin have more say over the way teams are run than common sense and medical experts say, it's time for big changes all around. The same is true at the pro level...owners here in place of donors...but sometimes I wonder if some of the big univ. donors aren't, in effect, "owners." Bah Humbug!!
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There are so many other games we can play, and, if you like that sort of thing (big crowds scare me witless) you can join the throngs that attend. Soccer, baseball, cricket, basketball, etc. Yes, there ARE freaky mishaps in any of these, even in golf, for crying out loud, but there is no INTENTION to mayhem. We can get killed any day of the week just wheeling our grocery cart out to our vehicle parked on a carefully marked lot. Stuff happens. It is the fact that football is BUILT for it, with anticipation filling the air that curdles my blood.
When Debi, daughter number 4, was just a Freshman in High School, back in the days when High School consisted of 4 years (I get really confused with all the variations in the systems my great grandchildren attend classes in THESE days!), she was in the Pom Pom Squad of cheerleaders. She was so proud, and their first public appearance at a game took place on an October night at their "Homecoming" game between Herndon and Wakefield. We did not live in Herndon, but it was our assigned school back in the day of such a smaller population. This must have been around 1969. We had almost the whole family there to see our Deb strut her stuff. It was right near the end of the first quarter, and we saw one of those sudden humongous senseless pileups down on the green, green spotlight lit field below. As one by one bodies peeled off from it, one green & white clad boy lay still on the turf. Adults rushed towards him. An ambulance assigned to the game and parked on the edge of the grounds came swiftly across the turf. Hey, do you get the drift? The public demands their children be protected at their football games by medics in official transportation being close by! Isn't there something WRONG with that picture? Anyway, we were distressed to read in our local paper the next day and in the following days that that boy, from Wakefield, was paralyzed from the neck down and would be a paraplegic for the rest of his life! Put me off the game right then and there. Shock and horror. And insight.
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Anecdotal stories can sometimes be misleading, as we know. Our son started playing football at about age 13. He played four years of high school ball. He then went to Gettysburg College, a division three school where Sat afternoon football is a wonderful event; smart young athletes doing something they enjoy, on beautiful campuses, but not cutthroat or a priority of the schools. He then spent ten yrs coaching in college football, all but one of those years at division 3 schools. He is now coaching at a high school. He's the perfect coach for those (mostly) boys - a competitive person, smart, caring and a person who gives good advice, someone they can look up to.
Through all those years there was not one serious, traumatizing injury of any of the athletes. Those events get the headlines, but there are millions if athletes who have no tragic injuries.
His first love was basketball, but he's only 5'7" and had no hopes of playing college basketball let alone getting any scholarship monies for it. So now he coaches the jv bb team and is now also coaching the golf team. He just loves to be active and is the antithesis of the "dumb jock" because he is so smart and caring and the atletes can see that about him. He's a good role model for his students and the athletes - boys and girls. They see him in his roles as a good husband and father also.
Yes, I'm bragging. I love the person he us. :) :)
Jean
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:) :-* 8)
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Dear Jean, brag on, I'm all for it! I'm sitting here comprising your personal cheering section, believe me!
My second husband played varsity football in High School in Dallas, and I have others near and dear who have played. I just flat out don't like the game, don't approve of it, and don't believe it is a good thing for our overall culture. That being said, I cannot and do not feel so much as a speck of animosity or condemnation towards those who participate in the sport or enjoy attending games. My beloved, darling, most perfect of mortal beings and Love of my Life Bob was an avid fan of the Redskins, and never missed any football game on the telly in his old age if he could help it. Sons Chip and Chris root for the Cowboys. None ever got ME to a game, and they all know in exquisite detail just what my thoughts are, and none love me any the less, nor I them. Bob and I agreed to disagree (well, he did admit that I was probably right, but that he sometimes had to indulge his more primitive instincts), and while we watched all the news programs and documentaries together, plus a lot of PBS BBC shows and some movies, we split up during the hours he indulged in his love of the sports scene. So please, Jean, you speak your mind and I will speak mine, with all due respect. I like you MUCH too much to harbor so much as the slightest desire to offend you, I swear.
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One of the dearest and gentlest man I know,, is married to my cousin, He played football and then coached for most of his life. he is now retired, but his athletes still come by the see him and as he has aged and is mostly in a wheelchair,, they come to the house, dig and plant his beloved garden, take him on golf journies even though he simply stays in the cart..So yes, Jean, a good coach is a wonderful thing.
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No offense here MaryPage. ;)
I am a big fan of the cliche "different strokes for different folks" and "variety is the spice of life" as we just commented in the "mystery" discussion. I am an addictive gatherer of information and i learn so much by talking with people who have a different perspective from mine. I feel no compulsion to agree with them, altho sometimes i've changed my mind because of the info they provided me.
Jean
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Oh my, different strokes is how I feel about how I live.. I try very hard to let others do it their way as long as they let me do it my way.. I love seniorlearn for the patience we have with each other. It is fun to be different and we certainly are.
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Am reading NEUROTRIBES by Steve Silberman, and I have to tell you it is BEYOND wonderful! It reads very fast and as smooth as silk, is as easy to digest as a vanilla ice cream cone on a hot day in July. And I am LEARNING so much. More and more I am convinced that the bottom line with autism is that the huge increase in the numbers of children showing up with it is quite accurate and DOES NOT indicate a lack of awareness earlier in the history of our species, but instead is the mark of a bend in the road of evolution and a branching off of yet another species of the homo genus. In short, I think autistics are the wave of a future dominant species; dominant because of their prodigious brains and magnified nervous systems. What I mean is, so many people are saying "Oh, we've ALWAYS had as many, we just didn't know what they were and so we were labeling them mentally deficient." Well sure, when they first starting coming along, we did do that, BUT! But there most definitely were not anything near as many of them, and the new amazing figures of their birthrate are absolutely right on. Evolutionary. My morale, insofar as thoughts of the future is concerned, is greatly boosted by the conviction that these children are indeed the surge of our destiny on our small planet!
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Interesting MaryPage - interesting... I have so many TBR but this sounds like it needs to be there - maybe a browse with coffee the next time I am in B&N
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Wheee we are open - Jane did it... our pre-discussion For Love of Lakes is open and ready AND the link is in the heading for the intro to the book along with the link to the book that is about 3/4ths of the book that is available to us from Amazon - here is the link to the discussion ... http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4803.0
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I am going to look at Neuro Tribes
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Oh Joy! Oh Joy! Oh Joy! I received in this morning's mail a book that I happened on - I know not where :P - but when researching for it found it at Amazon I found it for .99 + 3.99 shipping, and how could I pass that by!!!
It's titled, Women of Ideas: & what men have done to them by Dale Spender, an Australian feminist, who has written several books about women's place in history including, Man Made Language and Invisible Women. When my husband handed me the package and I felt the bulk of it, I wondered "did I order two books?" It's 700 pages plus, but looks like a wonderful read of women's writings over centuries about how it is to live in the "men's world" and what happened to the women's opinions, publications and thoughts.
I am reading the preface and find it very au courant (to quote Ginny). She gives a little philosophical introduction about her thinking that brought her to compile and write this book. In reading the feminist literature of the 60s and 70s about patriarchy and women living in the male world and how that impacted on us, and discussing it with other women, they began to ask "are we the first generation of women to have felt this way?" Some of them were vaguely aware that women did have a past, but it was shadowy and random.
She lists a whole paragraph of women writers who shared similar concerns from Abigail Adams to Alice Rossi (1973) and says "With the advent of these publications the question of whether women had thought and felt (isolated, invisible, ignored, demeaned, laughed at, considered to be 'sick', because they questioned the systems and posed that patriarchy was a problem) this way before was put to rest - THEY HAD! Another question arose in its place: why didn't I know, why didn't WE know?........Why were women of the present cut off from women of the past and how was this achieved? "
I felt is was a current question because as she continued to talk about what it is to be an "x" in an "o" world and how the people in control can force those without control to abide by their rules or be ostracized, I began to think about what is happening about women's issues today, about how any "x" gets treated similarly in other "o" worlds. Just exchange the words "male control" with the words "white privilege."
We have seen very clearly the attacks on Pres Obama as he dared to become the president of the U.S. Just imagine what it will be like if Hillary becomes president - at least Obama is a male, thereby having some regard by some of that half of the population - or how bad it will get for her in the election period. A huge part of her unfavorable numbers, I am sure, is that she is a woman challenging a male powerhouse. She must be untrustworthy, because she has the audacity to want to have the greatest power/control on earth! How could a mere woman have the intelligence, experience, competence to know she shouldn't share classified information???? etc. etc. It's going to be very ugly!
I am going to enjoy this book and will probably share more of it with you as I go along. It's going to take a while - 756 pages! I really wish I had the women's group that I was a part of in the early 70s where we discussed so many of the feminist writings, to talk with about this book. What fun!
Jean
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I share your enthusiasm, Jean, and look forward to your reports. Yes, it is sobering to think on the solid, dense walls of stubborn refusal to acknowledge or accept that Obama's two duly elected terms in office have experienced from a bitterly biased portion of our citzenry. One can only hope a woman elected to lead our beloved nation would not engender an identical blind gut reaction, but I very much fear an even more deeply entrenched spate of hatred. The hordes of resistance will build ever higher and more impervious dams to prevent much needed legislation from moving through necessary channels toward the final goal of providing the best government possible for all of our people. Would it were not so. I would LOVE to be proved wrong!
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Oh, sorry about the underlining. I couldn't get it to go away, each time i tried it got worse. I thought i had "cut" it and was going to repost it, didn't know it was posted and didn't edit it.😡😡
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Hope that is what you intended Jean - if not I can put back any area that still needs an underline - your [ u ] and [ /u ] were following each other with no words between and then it is easy to get an extra [ u ] that followed the entire piece.
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Jean, do keep us up to date.The book seems to say a lot of things that many of us have been thinking for years.
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Oh, that's great Barb, thanks for taking the time to figure that out. The only change is that "Invisible Women" and "Man Made Language" are two different books.
In reading an old copy of the AARP magazine I saw an interview with Maria Shriver and saw that she has a blog about inspiring people and other interesting musings. In checking it out, I found some very interesting posts. In one of them about women taking back our power she has a quote from Sheryl Steinberg's book about an issue we're all familiar with about men being considered leaders when they are assertive and vocal and give orders, while women are the b...., agressive, bossy, etc. Think Christie and Trump as opposed to Palin and Clinton.
Remember how Hillary's poll numbers improved in the 2007 campaign when she got emotional in NH ? ...... She became "a woman exhibiting proper behavior" for many. What a shame.
http://mariashriver.com/blog/category/ive-been-thinking/
Jean
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Knowing a bit about marketing - I am thinking all this we have been experiencing for the last 3 or so years as if going backwards 50 or more years was calculated in prep for the way to bring Hillary down a peg - I think the powers that be saw she was going to run even before Obama's second term and so all women were thrown under the bus in order to play power politics. It is easy for someone with influence and a large bank account to pander to the ego of those who have followers so that social change can become a real outcome.
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Oh Barbara, I totally agree!
It is just heartbreaking seeing what she is going through, and just IMAGINE donating, as she has done, your entire life to working for your country and your fellow Americans only to see yourself shoved aside almost at the very end of a long and grueling campaign, not in one national campaign, but in TWO! We all thought like forever that if a woman just managed to get three times the resume of most men, she could compete with the boys. NOT!
I will freely admit to not being without fault here. My progressive soul is more in step with Bernie Sanders, and I have had this humongous crush on Joe Biden since he served on the WaterGate Committee back in the early nineteen seventies! So I am feeling a bit swayed, and more than a little fickle and disloyal. I am a Big Fan and admirer of Hilary's, but feel my excitement clocks in at a higher number when I contemplate Bernie or Joe.
Hilary was named one of this nation's 100 best lawyers by the ABA. She was the First Lady of Arkansas. She was the First Lady of these United States. She was the Senator from New York. She was Secretary of State of these United States. Scheesch, what do you have to DO?
Yes, just as there has been a 7 year and counting conspiracy to use every possible weapon to bring down and ruin the Barack Obama presidency, I perceive a huge, heavily financed, conspiracy to bring down Hilary Clinton, by every foul means they can come up with. Every lie repeated ad nauseam eventually becomes burned into the conscious thinking of the national audience. The great loss to this country in both the matter of Obama and in the case of Hilary, is that much of the MEDIA has also been purchased these days. Shoot, some of the moneybags of the conspiracy OWN the newspapers, radio stations, and television channels that are spewing out the vomit. We need and deserve a totally unbiased FREE press in this nation; if our often cited FOREFATHERS knew how low we have sunk in that regard, they would reappear in fulsome display of their centuries of decay and throw up on the Capitol Steps themselves, I swear!
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Sadly, I think Hillary is bringing herself down.
Many see her First Lady experiences as rising on the back of her very popular husband. Her experience as Secretary of State is viewed in luke-warm terms at best - no one seems to be able to name any real outstanding accomplishments there, except the mishandling (being generous here) of the Benghazi attack.
And the appearance of her selling political clout (of course with the assumption that she would land the Democratic nomination for the presidency), is even more condemning in view of the amount of money received - and from whom it was received - for the family foundation.
It only looks like she's playing the same games as her male peers. She is seen as "one of the boys" and, in this case at least, that is not a good thing.
Many view her as just another Washington elitist, uncaring, dishonest, and zealous for power. No different really than how many in Congress and this administration (or most administrations of the past several decades for that matter) are viewed. So, actually .... I guess that means women have received parity with men? Sad, really. :-\
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I think it is easy to make one sentence generalizations with little specifics. Hillary Clinton's accomplishments? Do we know much about any Sec of State's actual job? Very few SofS have written/worked some big policy or treaty that any of us can name, or that has their name on it. Much of their work is facilitating relationships between other countries and us, encouraging heads of gov't to move in the directions that the USA would like them to.
Who can name some major known "accomplishment" of Condolezza Rice? Colin Powell? Madeleine Albright? Warren Christopher? Etc etc.
She traveled more miles to more countries than any other had before. She pushed huge budget increases for programs for women around the world. Giving out 100 millions of stoves may not seem like a big deal, but it improves safety for women and children immensely. She pressured, without hesitancy, for govt's to improve the conditions and power of women.
[By the close of 2009 there were 25 female ambassadors posted by other nations to Washington; this was the highest number ever.[71] This was dubbed the "Hillary effect" by some observers: "Hillary Clinton is so visible" as secretary of state, said Amelia Matos Sumbana, the Mozambique Ambassador to the United States, "she makes it easier for presidents to pick a woman for Washington."[71] An added fact, of course, was that two other recent U.S. Secretaries of State were women, but Clinton's international fame from her days as First Lady of the United States made her impact in this respect the greatest of the group.[71]
Clinton also included in the State Department budget for the first time a breakdown of programs that specifically concerned themselves with the well-being of women and girls around the world.[64] By fiscal 2012, the department's budget request for such work was $1.2 billion, of which $832 million was for global health programs.[64] Additionally, she initiated the Women in Public Service Project, a joint venture between the State Department and the Seven Sisters colleges. The goal was to entice more women into entering public service, such that within four decades an equal number of men and women would be working in the field.[72]
One specific cause Clinton advocated almost from the start of her tenure was the adoption of cookstoves in the developing world, to foster cleaner and more environmentally sound food preparation and reduce smoke dangers to women. In September 2010, she announced a partnership with the United Nations Foundation to provide some 100 million such stoves around the world within the next ten years, and in subsequent travels she urged foreign leaders to adopt policies encouraging their use.
Nevertheless, there were limitations to her influence: Much of the handling of the Middle East, Iraq, and Iran was done by the White House or Pentagon during her tenure,[153] and on some other issues as well, policy-making was kept inside the White House among Obama's inner circle of advisors.[294] There were also differences of opinion. Clinton failed to persuade Obama to arm and train Syrian rebels in 2012, but overcame initial opposition to gain approval of her visit to Burma in 2011.[153] Clinton's initial idea of having special envoys under her handling key trouble spots fell apart due to various circumstances.[293] Clinton did find bureaucratic success in edging out the U.S. Commerce Department, by having the State Department take a lead role in sales pitches in favor of U.S. companies.[295] In doing so, she helped negotiate international deals for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Westinghouse Electric Company.[295] Clinton believed, more than most prior secretaries, that the commercial aspects of diplomacy and the promotion of international trade were vital to American foreign policy goals.[295] Obama adopted Clinton's view of how to deal with Iran[112] and Clinton's work in organizing international sanctions against that country eventually led to the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action that Secretary Kerry negotiated in 2015; this in effect tied Clinton's legacy with respect to Iran to Obama's.[113][4]/
in mid-2012, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said, "I think she's represented our nation well. She is extremely well respected throughout the world, handles herself in a very classy way and has a work ethic second to none."[4]
As i said i think it is too easy to make generally negative statements about things that many of us, me included, i had to look up this information, don't have any indepth knowledge about.
Jean
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Well, exactly. We can look at the glass half full, or half empty. Same old, same old. One thing I can see, and have always seen, is that far from being Washington "elitists." the Clintons have always been outsiders here. And far from being the usual type of politicians, in for the easy ride to power, prestige, and safest of retirement plans, both Clintons have been (and this is probably what attracted them to each other from the git go) highly idealistic and full of dreams of being instruments of making things happen that will make America stronger and a better place for the rest of us to enjoy our lives in, and the world a more united and less warring patchwork quilt of nations.
The Clintons have SERVED, and each has worked prodigiously at doing so with every job they have taken on, every cause they have espoused. Their enthusiasm and zeal have made that very "Washington Elite" crowd resent them from the git go, wondering where all this hustle and bustle came from and why these two smarty pants do gooders don't learn to tone it all down and go along to get along, the way they have been doing like forever. They have wished the Clintons to be smeared with whatever their own clever young staffs could come up with and exiled back to the hinterlands of Arkansas, never to be heard of again. Millions and millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent to bring down these two upstarts, only to find nothing of substance left on the table when one investigation ends and they are forced to look for another quickly in order to keep pumping ephemeral doubts in the minds of confused franchised citizens. The whole ceaseless barrage of hatred and resentment has curdled my innards these many years, and one can but wonder what a wonderful world this would truly be if a more positive attitude were to be adopted and hearts were to be grateful for the dedication and hard work of these public servants. No doubt they, like Abe Lincoln and a long line of our dead before and since, will have no ears to hear when a sorrowful nation finally exults in their leadership on the pages of our history books.
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I get Margaret and Helen and I have been laughing so hard. It seems that our very religious clerk has been married four times, divorced three times and has two out of wedlock children. Hmm and she has thoughts on the sanctity of marriage, Oh me,, there are whole days I dispair of some women
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When you have lived such a history of wedded bliss and much of the world looks down their long noses at you, and you cannot get comfortable in your own skin about the details of your life thus far, when someone comes along and suggests you join THEIR community of absolute certitude and Get Saved, complete with a gilt edged pass into the Pearly Gates come death, when you get to march in ahead of all those who previously looked askance, you grab the chance. The comfort and assurance you now own belong to a branch of Christianity that is totally foreign to my own Sunday School and Bible School and church attendance upbringing, but no matter. You have this to cling to and you are going to do so like a mindless barnacle, so help you god!
I heard on either the national news or one of the MSNBC programs that she only converted in something like 2011 or therebouts.
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My gut tells me she is a women in pain and trying to put on a face of respectability for the public - I think she is looking for an authority figure to stand up for her as she may have been looking for that Saviour most of her life - you can see in her face the will that comes to the upper part of her face, eyes and forehead - as if blocking out any logic and if she is very very good following the dictates of this religious group and taking it to the nth degree she will feel better and the pain will be abated.
I lived in Lexington for 12 years and half of those years with the Girl Scouts we went into the mountains regularly to teach adults some American History, the youngsters were inoculated and the senior age girls spent a few weeks living in these communities to get to know the mountain life. These communities are still rather isolated and although Rowan County has Morehead Collage the collage has very little influence or involvement with the rest of Morehead much less the rest of the County.
This is a part of the world that leans on traditions that were brought with the first settlers - back in the 50s and 60s when I was living there as roads were being built there were still buried communities being found with folks speaking and dressing and living Elizabethan England - after the whiskey tax went in there was no way they could get their crops down those mountains to the river where as barrels of whiskey could make that kind of journey - the whiskey tax put them out of business and so the simply faded into the mountains.
This women may only be two generations from that kind of life and therefore her primitive view of Christianity is steeped in folk tradition and social behavior far more than a Christian interpretation of the Bible. And if she is a convert than she had nothing to hang onto except folk ways, growing up - with that many marriages and her being heavy and not kept but rather plain I would bet she had those children as a result of an unpleasant experience - we know there is something in all of us when we have experienced trauma we want to fix it with someone else - and she could even be trying to fix it with this man who she had his children to 'make' him love her and stand up for her - if those youngsters were conceived with love than somehow she is trying to better some authority figure while looking for the protection of an authority figure.
I see the panic in her eyes in the last photos when she was going to jail and all I can see is a women who is steeling herself to withstand more than she should take and she is going to be in some mess when she gets out that she will not even know what is happening but the lord will have a Martyr like never before because that will be her only way to hold it together. I could be talking through my hat but my gut is saying she is in a pit of pain and not because of this issue.
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Wow! Great posts theis morning!
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I think we are pretty much on the same page here, Barbara. Another point in this whole mess: This woman's MOTHER was County Clerk for something in the neighborhood of 37 years, and albeit it is an ELECTED position, when the mother finally retired the Daughter ran and won the job in her place. And hired, this daughter, her OWN son as an employee in her office. So my guess would be this is not a densely populated area.
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Helen and Margaret are my 21st century Molly Ivans! ;D ;D
Telling like it is!
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Woohoo! Hillary just had a great, long interview with Andrea Mitchell. I'm sure you will see parts of it all day on MSNBC.
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Oh, I adored Molly Ivins! And Anne Richards! I still have a bunch of Molly's books that I haven't passed on to my granddaughters yet. I really should. Did you know that Cecile Richards, who has been president of Planned Parenthood for some years now, is Anne's daughter? I tell you, when we grow great women in this country, we grow GREAT ones! These three are all TEXANS, too! And then there was Barbara Jordan!
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Thank you for the Hillary posts - I do remember the stoves, nice work. That doesn't - in my mind, at least - off-set the negatives as far as politicians helping themselves more than their constituents, throwing us crumbs so they can best situate themselves. The money flows freely - and from undesirable sources with questionable intent. Their service to the country must be weighed against the harm done.
Isn't it incredibly curious that Hillary was not used much in the middle east? Yet John Kerry certainly has been. Curious... And there is still the Benghazi issue...and problems with exposing soldiers and our intelligence communities to dangers while receiving foreign funds. I really hope there is full disclosure - to be certain that people's lives and safety have not been compromised for personal gain. That would only be in her own best interest at this point. I'll look forward to her interviews.
I was encouraged when she announced that she found the Planned Parenthood videos (which members of Congress have been given access to in the original, uncut versions - 40 hours of tapes) "disturbing", but later she defended the agency.
As for the clerk: part of the first amendment was written to protect the free expression of religion whether it is one I agree with or not. I think speculations and judgments about her or her motives is a moot point. The community who elected her agrees with her view, so she is representing them well. Lois Lerner and Eric Holder both were held in contempt of Congress apparently standing on principles, albeit not religious ones; neither went to jail as I recall.
The Supreme Court overstepped their authority in regard to same-sex marriage (as they did with Roe v. Wade); they do not have the constitutional authority here to invalidate the states' laws.
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The Clerk had other avenues open to her, including authorizing someone else to issue the licenses, as is done in some other states. No one is denying her the right to her religious beliefs; she, however, believes she has a right to force those beliefs on others. She has the right to quit her job; ethically, she should do that.
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You are, of course, absolutely correct. No one is saying that she cannot practice her religion. Our constitution guarantees her that right. But she cannot, again under our constitution, practice her religion by preventing other citizens from receiving the legal benefits bestowed upon them by state and federal laws, when and if HER FEDERAL OR STATE OFFICE demands that she carry out the laws of the government that issues her paycheck. In this case, all of our courts had ruled that she must issue those marriage licenses. She is in contempt by not doing so, NOT because any other citizen is infringing upon HER rights, but because she is not doing the job her fellow citizens have elected her to do.
There are six (6) deputy clerks of the court in that office she heads up. Five have said that they WOULD issue those marriage licenses. The only one who said he would not IS THIS WOMAN'S SON.
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"...because she is not doing the job her fellow citizens have elected her to do."
I think the citizens who elected her do not agree with the above statement. From what I've read, they want her to stand up to a ruling illegally obtained and equally forced on the public - negating the votes of millions of American citizens. How is it that they can force their beliefs on the country through very questionable means? Isn't that equally egregious?
There were others who could - and would - issue the licenses. The governor and legislature could have stepped in and made accommodation. Her statement was very well written and underscores her objections, which were logically and clearly stated with considerable grace.
And she did refuse to issue licenses to both heterosexual and homosexual couples, in an effort to avoid discrimination. In fact, she's being sued by two couples of each type. Neither is she the first clerk to refuse to issue a marriage license to a gay couple since the Obergefel ruling ... just the first that was videotaped. Everyone knew her beliefs - an obvious attempt to discriminate against a Christian?.
As far as removing her:
"Because Davis is an elected official, she can only be removed from office for impeachment. That would require the Kentucky House of Representatives to charge her with an impeachable offense and the Senate would then try her. Impeachment is unlikely since few citizens in Kentucky support same-sex marriage".
I haven't heard any voices raised to impeach her - only those in her community protesting in support of what she is doing.
Still - Lerner and Holder also took an oath to uphold their respective offices and - in Holder's case - to enforce the law, which he frequently refused to do based on his personal ideology. And his negligence of duty resulted in the death of at least one citizen. I don't understand why that isn't every bit as upsetting, causing people to stand against such a flagrant negligence of duty?
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Oh. As far as Hillary being a senator from New York? She was not seen as a "New Yorker" (except as befitting NYC). Instead, she was elected in a VERY blue state primarily because she was the former first lady and her husband set up his office and foundation here. Because NYC (and a hand full of other cities) make up the majority of the population, the rest of New York State is pretty used to not being represented except in the House and in local elections.
With 94 million Americans out of the work force - the highest since 1977 - I hope she has more to offer than just being a woman and being married to a man who wished ne could rum for a third term? :)
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There were a larger number of demonstrators cheering on and for the rights of those citizens who wished to purchase marriage licenses than there were of demonstrators from this County Clerk's church. So much for the viewpoint of the majority of citizens of that county. Even if it had been the other way around, which it was not, it has been declared the law of this nation in all 50 of its United States that under our constitution every human being has equal rights under our laws, including the right to marry the person they love and be a family together. We cannot revert to the barbarism of not recognizing the basic humanity of each and every one of us and our equal right to Love.
It was Jesus Himself who told us we should observe the following Law: render unto Caesar (the government) the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things which are God's. The Jesus of Nazareth I have known all of my 86 years is all about Love. There is no doubt in MY mind as to which side in this matter He would demonstrate for, and both the religious views of the vast majority of the citizens of this nation AND the laws according to our constitution demand we all love and let love, recognizing we are all created equal and deserving of life, liberty and the right to pursue happiness. This also demands of the vast majority of us, of course, that we must turn our gaze from those poor souls who prefer to huddle in their "churches" and babble about a gospel of hatred for all others, and leave them the freedom to rant on and on.
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Federal law does not honor States Rights, County Rights, Religious Right if it affects those from another religion - we fought all that in the Civil War and lost - so regardless what her constituents think is right or wrong and what laws they should or not uphold - they are acting trying to make the rule of law into a social issue not a legal issue -
We are a nation based in law and Constitution law does not give individuals room to adjust the law for personal reason - religion or otherwise. To not marry those who come to you, as an elected official with job requirements based on the rule of law is no different than, a group of Muslims with a Muslim in an elected office saying, all women who live in that district must wear a hijab. Or a community that is overwhelming Jewish with a Jewish representative elected to office and who denies non-Jewish Doctors permission to work out of the county hospital because they preform circumcisions without the presence of a rabbi.
We all have some aspect of the Federal Law that we are not 100% behind - it is why there is such a fierce debate before they become law - remember the hurrah when Black Kids were entering all white schools for their education - same thing - you can fuss and raise an army in your defense but bottom line those who do not like a law are not made immune from the law.
As to God's Law being superior - that went out with Henry VIII when he made the laws of kings paramount over the church and then when we created this union of states called the United States of America we put the rule of law in the pinnacle position.
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Not to be contentious here, but help me understand how what she did is different than what Eric Holder did when he, for instance, refused repeatedly to enforce immigration law and actually took states to court which were enforcing the federal law? How was (and is) the DOJ allowed to determine which laws to enforce - to travel throughout the country telling state attorney generals how to choose which laws to enforce? They all took an oath to uphold the law - the whole law, yes? Not just the ones they agree with? How was that not using the rule of law for a social issue?
We are talking about the constitutional right to the free expression of a person's religious beliefs. A family in the baking business refuses to make a wedding cake and is sued, their lives threatened, their business destroyed. A jeweler who fashioned wedding rings designed by a homosexual couple is being sued because, after they received the rings with joy, in casual conversation he made it known that he did not agree with homosexual marriage. The same attempts were made to destroy his business. The people making threats and destroying people's life work simply because they don't agree with them - aren't they being hateful? Now a sitting judge has refused to perform homosexual marriages, so we'll see how that plays out.
People throughout our history have protested unjust laws, often by disobeying them. This clerk did not run away or fight with the police - she accepted the judge's ruling and went to jail without incident. An act of civil disobedience.
Jesus of Nazareth established that marriage was a union between a man and a woman where they become one flesh; a sacred covenant often used as an analogy for the union He shared with the Father. God is a God of love and infinite mercy and grace. He is also a just God, full of righteousness, holy, and immutable. He hasn't changed His mind in what He has determined to be right. And a child of God stands for what is right and true in all of life. That is worship. In America we thankfully have the right to do that.
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The problem is - trying to suggest that everyone believes that Jesus is God - we are not a theocracy -
...trying to suggest a narrow interpretation of the Bible - that also interprets as the word of Jesus whatever is not written in the bible - Jesus made no mention of same sex marriage in the bible -
...trying to suggest the social mores of 2000 years ago is appropriate as if we have not learned anything in the last 2000 years so we all must live with the same mores as 2000 years ago -
...trying to say even if someone is not Christian - then as a CIVIL servant if a Christian needs to be assured that someone will abide by the Christian rules for marriage, means forcing folks to live to a Christian religious belief which also means since, you believe these beliefs came from God and that you want someone who does not share your religion or religious belief to accept that your God is supreme and the only God - We know that is silly - even the Pope knows better and has been developing alliances with the leaders of other religions.
Since no one has ever seen God, many religions make an assumption about God and where Christians believe Jesus was God and Man, it took them over a 1000 years to settle that question as their truth, while other religions and a few in the Eastern Christian churches, see Jesus as a Prophet therefore, if they were to make a Civil rule follow a Religious rule they would not choose Jesus as the guide for the rule but instead, chose the God they believe in - The Constitution, as the basis for this nation's laws was never made as an extension of any religion or any God or any religious law.
There are many laws we do not agree with - there is a proper channel to sway enough people that can make a change to the law -
I do not agree the stop sign should have been erected at the end of my street after living here for 25 years without the stop sign I still get a ticket if I drive through the stop sign even if there is no other car on the road. - yep, it happened -
This is true with any law and yes, there are laws on the books that become irrelevant because of the change in how we live - example, I do not have a hitching post in front of my house and yet, that law is still on the books. Since there is no an empty appointment book - with no requests for marriage license that is a good clue this new law could not be considered irrelevant as the hitching post in front of my house.
I know you have strong religious beliefs however, I never took you for someone who would recommend braking a law because you do not like a law that conflicts with a religious belief that is important to you - I think of you as a law abiding person and I hope you are just expressing your frustration rather than, really trying to say folks have the right to brake laws with impunity when they are in a job representing, not just their local constituents but also, representing the Federal rule of law that keeps us as one nation.
Again, this is a Federal Law rather than a State or County law - a more local law may better represent her constituents However, in the democratic process the winner takes all and those who have reservations with a law or an election have a process they need to use to make a change.
Over our lifetime we have seen many protest a law or the direction taken by our national leaders - they have laid on streets, bombed armament sites, yelled at leaders, marched in the street, camped on public or empty land and carried signs - however, any that break the law are prosecuted and jailed and some are jailed for simply bringing attention to the problem in an unruly manner just as they were in Ferguson -
If Ms Davis is bringing attention to a law she and others do not agree with - that is fine but again, as a representative and executive executioner of Federal Law that means the courts get into the mix - no different than if a soldier does not agree with a war and chose not to do part of the job - anyone can break a law - but by doing so you will be brought to court where a judge will decide your fate.
If she wants the marriage law changed and this is her protest to assure the change gets the attention of all those who agree to that change - then she is doing a great job and as all protest movements if the law is broken there is consequence to pay.
I think it would be good to read a few law books and a few books on how to protest using the court room and how Federal laws are changed - I do not know of any law that was overturned in a matter of days - there is no one in this nation that has that kind of authority - as to Holder - that is your opinion based on a political opinion which for this discussion is like trying to insert a few oranges into the pile of apples - I think you have to decide to talk about either Holder or Ms. Davis - splitting and trying to make a reconnect dilutes both as we learned in high school debating 101.
I think this is more about the process of change than if her viewpoint on marriage is right or wrong -
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Outstanding, Barbara!
And I sing YES with enthusiasm at your last sentence.
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I love Helen and Margaret. I dont know about pain in her eyes, but I do know that she could let her clerks take care of this. She does not see it, but it boils down to, how about if she said.. my faith does not allow me toissue marriage licenses to any red headed human. They are all wrong and evil.. Same thing exactly. Dont blame your faith.
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From what I have gleaned from just the television and newspapers, nothing more, because goodness knows I am no legal expert regarding any place, anywhere, let alone Kentucky (where I lived and went to school in 1940), there is/was some sort of legal glitch there, Steph, to the effect that ONLY THE Clerk of the Court has the right and duty in that County, or maybe it was the state, but I think I heard that county, to issue marriage licenses. Which in effect means that while the deputy clerks may be processing the paperwork, all licenses issued in that county must come with the County Clerk's signature on them. One would assume all fishing, hunting, etc. licenses, as well? I don't know. All birth certificates? All death certificates? Or is there a Department of Health that handles those? These little details, I think, differ mightily across the 50 states. Not to mention the over 3,000 counties, I think it is. But there has been some sort of hold up like that until that Federal Judge in Kentucky ruled that the Deputies COULD issue those licenses. Which now 5 of them have done, and there is much rejoicing in the land, BUT --------- but there is also a whiff of people saying no, under the laws there these newly issued licenses are not worth the paper they are written on. Me, I don't know who prevails here. For the time being I assume that Federal Judge does, but I expect the legislature may chime in when they meet again. They are not in session again until January, I believe it is. Then again and also too, there would be some sort of county ruling body: a County Council or a Board of Supervisors, or whatever the local jargon is. City, county, state and federal. This story would appear to be ongoing.
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Musing on the matter of licenses being granted for ANY thing, it has occurred to me that the principal purposes are (1) to make the action involved legally entered upon, that is to say, with the sanction of the ruling government body, the government being the body appointed or elected by the society as a whole for granting permission for the activity, and/or (2) to make a legal record for the permanent community archives to the effect that this birth, marriage, property transfer, death, dog license, you name it, has occurred and the proper fee paid to the community treasury. The action involved becomes illegal and void if it is later found out that the party or parties appearing before the license granter have given false information because the true facts would disqualify them from receiving the license in question. In short, the clerks are dependent entirely upon the information given them and declared truthful by those requesting licenses, and if those bits of information appear to be okay according to the law within their jurisdiction, then said clerks have NO CHOICE but to issue those licenses, this being their duty to the community in fulfilling their assigned workload. So if you distrust the person or persons appearing before you to receive a license, or you just flat out take a dislike to them, or you disapprove of their attitude or religion or whatever, you have to issue that license if the application is complete and correct according to the law. Your FEELINGS just do not apply. And if you have a problem of personal disagreement with the law, it makes no difference what that problem arises from, as in this case it is a religious belief, you ARE NOT QUALIFIED to exercise the duties of that position in any wise except according to the laws that apply. So this woman may feel she has every right to that job, (having inherited it from her mother who held it for 37 years), and her son has every right to the job she has given him, BUT the graceful, proper and correct thing would be to resign and seek a position where she would not feel the requirements of the work would be too much for her conscience to allow her to function in peace. Does this make any sense?
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I don't want to be talking to myself in this forum, but there is another thing that strikes me here, and that is that this case is not unsimilar to the much larger, much more horrendous matter of world wide importance going on in Europe: i.e., those refugees fleeing Syria and Afghanistan and Iraq, but mostly Syria, 80% they are saying, because they fear for their very lives. The extremely poor cannot flee, for the going has become a racket and money must be paid up front for the smuggling out, the buses, the trains, the boats. It is the more educated middle and upper classes that are abandoning their homes, if indeed the bombing has left their homes intact, and selling up all they can in order to take themselves and their families to a place where they might NOT be killed. It is all about life or death. And the United Nations has declared that all their nations will recognize refugee status and assist these desperate souls.
But there is huge paranoia. Huge fear. This is where I see a parallel. Some folk are afraid of same sex marriage; scared to bits of it, feeling it threatens their very existence, or the world as they know it. And on this planet of ours, many fear strangers. There is a deep primal urge to resist all incomers; to stop them, as they are a perceived threat. Man, woman and child: KILL THEM! They are not human, they are vermin, and their coming in HERE, wherever here is, will upset the balance of things for US. They will bring us religious practices foreign to us, diseases we do not have, languages we do not speak or understand. So let us designate them NOT human, and keep them from our midst. Let us turn our faces away and not think about what is happening to them. Let us do this in all good conscience in the name of keeping our lives as they are.
I have long envisioned a world in which huge armies are deployed along the borders of our very own beloved and generous hearted country, and machine guns are pointed toward any human being who appears headed in this direction, be they fleeing death from gangs, despots, and drug dealers or from climate change, droughts, and/or disease. People, in the long and short of it, leave their home bases and their native lands only in dire need to do so. When the people on the receiving end of their desperate journeys are unable to imagine accommodating them in any way, only terrible numbers being mowed down by guns, bombs or gases will be the end result. The end of humanity? One wonders.
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MaryPage, the graceful, proper and correct thing would be to resign and seek a position where she would not feel the requirements of the work would be too much for her conscience to allow her to function in peace. Does this make any sense?
Perfectly!!
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Yes, MaryPage, as Callie says, "Perfectly"!
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Wonderful discussion.
Marypage - i think you have hit on an important point that has driven events throughout history - fear! But it saddens me, having been a history teacher for decades, that it continues. I think the issue with the refugees is that Europe is in such bad economic condition and, like Americans when millions of immigrants came in the early 20 th century, the Europeans fear for their jobs and their economies. I also believe there is much fear about "the other" -many of the refugees are "brown" people and non-Christian people, not similar to most Europeans.
And on the same sex marriage issue, change is scary. I don't always understand why people can conjure up myths about how homosexuals marrying can "destroy" heterosexual marriage. If I'm homosexual, i am not going to marry, or attempt to attract, your heterosexual spouse. If I am heterosexual, I am not going to be attracted to homosexuals because we can now marry. It is an irrational premise.
As to religious beliefs, this is, as several of you have well said, a legal issue, in our non-theocracy form of government, religion has nothing to do with the issue. I can, and she can, practice her religion in any way she wishes inher church, or in her home, but not in her job as an official - elected or not - of any unit of government. She is an agent of the government. She took an oath to uphold the constitution, not an oath to Christianity. If she feels she can no longer uphold that oath, her option is to resign.
As Barb says, if this is a protest, she is UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION, entitled to break the law and TAKE THE CONSEQUENCES. That is the purpose of civil rights protests. MLK and other civil rights protestors expected to be arrested to make their issue a news item, but they also recognized, and trained protestors, that they would be arrested.
I think she has created a wonderful vehicle for discussion, however, the discussion should be on the facts, not on mythology, such as "this is a war on Christians". Facts indicate that Christians are far and away still in the majority in the US, in numbers and in power positions,and have all of their religious rights in tact. Those who say otherwise are creating a red herring, or don't remember their civics lessons, if they ever had them. This is why it is disastorous that schools are taking history and civics out of the cirricula around the country.
Jean
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I am somewhat torn about the european situation. I understand the people ffleeing, but and this is a big but in Europe just now. They are all muslim or the great majority is. Many of the european countries are having problems bigtime with the arabs who have come to their countries and are trying to bring in
sharia law and customs which are not from the countriees. So when this crisis is over, what will happen. Will all of these people stay in the host countries and try to change them? Will they obey the laws? Unemployment is high in many of these countries. What will happen with that.. I think the smaller countries have real problems. I also dont have an answer. I feel for the refugees, but not quite sure how to get them to assimilate.
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Great points, Jean, especially the last. For simply ages now, every time I find myself on the other side of an issue which calls forth that now getting old battle cry of "It's a war on Christians," I have to do a sort of double-take and say to myself: "Let's see, have I changed my affiliation overnight and forgotten to tell myself?"
We might also, in this particular instance, take into account the fact that the vast majority of same sex marriages in this country are made up of two Christians.
But one also senses this is pretty much a one sided "war." That is to say, there is not a whole lot of warring nature on the side that wants equal civil rights for all. There is just a strong sense of peace, love and hope. The ugliness of a warring faction, on the other hand, shows up in glaring technicolor when the evening news shows demonstrations outside of Christian churches in which funerals are being held for American men and women who have fallen in foreign lands. They hold up huge signs that say "God Hates Fags!" and they shout out that our soldiers have died because God does not approve of fags. I find myself thinking the motif here seems to be that if only the United States would hold to a policy of killing all fags, then Peace would fall upon the land and there would be no more wars for our military to die in.
Anyway, I am not part of that, or any other war. But since I seem to be on the "side" with the opposing viewpoint, and if that other side is the "Christian" side, than my question is this: What is MY side called? All of my documentation, baptism certificate et al, identify me as a Christian, but this other "side" thinks otherwise!
Beats me! As we used to say down home, "Deed it does!"
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Steph I've had the same thoughts ever since this crisis hit the news - what did help was to see the small percentage to the over all population these immigrants or refuges represent. The other thought is those who band together and hole tightly to their Sharia Law are doing so for comfort since they are not accepted - this open hearted attitude now if it continues may make a difference - I wonder if that has anything to do with the drive for Germany - we have not heard the Germans ostracizing the Muslims as we do in England and France - France has had this to sort out for 50 years or more - ever since the Algerian war they had had folks from North Africa clambering onto their land. But once in France, although their French is impeccable and they had not been pushing Sharia Law for the last 10 or 15 years the Muslims in France have become more insular and expect to live with their customs so that head scarves became an issue.
All I can say is that the drama around Ms. Davis has been a huge eyeopener for me - because that had been my 'only' concern seeing the mass migration in our country from one part of the world and seeing the enormous changes in Austin where we are 38% Mexican American - I should say southern nation American because there are many among the population from El Salvador and Guatemala - there is a nice mixture represented in Government, Teachers, and Police and the city has adapted much of the culture and there are folks in all economic circumstances so where there is a ghetto to use a term that says it - those areas are where the new, mostly illegal and poor live. But then this state has ALWAYS had a strong Mexican influence even when the Mexican's were hated and the all the atrocities during the Texas War for Independence was and to a degree still is blamed on the Mexicans.
However, putting all that aside here I was concerned about a mass migration affecting our laws and customs while Ms. Davis showed me it is not from without we have to worry about it is from within. I now have to wonder where the push to get Civics out of the Classroom originated. I believe it is gone from all public school curriculum and only appears in a few private schools. It is not Sharia Law or the religious persuasion of immigrants we have to worry about, it is the Christian Right and our loss of ethical law makers that are periodically exposed but not near enough so that for the last 50 years money and corporations run our nation. The Christian Right is I think not only the result but useful for politicians to divide and conquer to assure re-election and to complicate the issues of the day with all the drama taking our eye off the real issues. We already have Huckabee and Jindal adding to the drama for no other reason than their political future.
And so it will be interesting if we could find out how Germany handles their immigration - up till now they have not had a flood of immigrants from another part of the world with different customs - they have not had the issues that face Britain and France - if these folks can assimilate and continue to be treated with open arms it may be a different story but we shall see - the other issue that we may be denied seeing is it is usually the kids born in a Muslim Family living in the west who all of a sudden become very pro Muslim - so that would be the youngest of the children and those yet not born - we will have to live another 25 or 30 years to see what becomes of German Muslims - that puts me at 112 - nope do not thing so...
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One of Hillary's many barriers to cross........women have a higher standard to meet to be considered "authentic". Men get much more acceptance, or a pass.
http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-women-problem-explained-369153
And I think that's only one of many subconscious prejuduces that any woman has to contend with, but when you are going for the presidency those biases may be amped up significantly.
I may have told this story on SL before, but I think it fits here.....
I have a naturally lower-toned voice which when I was teaching I thought gave me an advantage as being perceived as having authority. I sound sure of myself, confident - often more so than I was, I think. When I started teaching high school I was still 21 years old, I had some male students who were 18 years old and much bigger than I was. I asked myself through that first semester "what do I do if they won't obey me?" It never happened! In 25 years of teaching high school and college, I never had a discipline problem with any student.
When working for Dept of Army I, on about 3 or 4 occasions, had men tell me that I was intimidating, which surprised me. On one occasion, I was a peer of the man and had hired him to train some facilitators in my program. I sat in as a participant of the training. At one point he said it was absolutely necessary to have a 5 year and 10 year career plan if you are to be successful. I countered, in what I thought was a pleasant way, that the two jobs that I had held in Dept of Army had each not been in existence 10 years before I got the job and the one he and I both held at that moment had not been in existence 5 years before, so we could not have planned them, that sometimes you have to be open to opportunity. ......He was not happy with my response.
A few days later each trainee had to do a sample facilitation with the group. I did mine and waited at the front of the room for feedback from the group. He said "I think you were intimidating in your presentation." I thought "o.k. Jean, listen up, you may learn something." And I asked what I had done that Was intimidating. He said, "you walked up to the easel, planted your feet, squared your shoulders and seemed overly confident." I said "o.k.." Fortunately I didn't have to say anything else because two women who knew me slightly answered him. One was a young Captain who said," that's exactly how officers in the military are trained to make a presentation, you know what your goal is and you stand tall on two feet and present. I thought Jean showed confidence and competence about what she was doing and led the group just the way we have talked about all week." I could have kissed her! A civilian woman spoke up saying "I don't think anybody on Ft Dix thinks Jean Perry is intimidating. She's trained all of us at one time or another and she's a good trainer." More mental kisses...... :)
I find women have a very fine line to tread and it isn't always easy to see, or feel, the line. Most of the time I think we don't even know we've crossed someone else's line as to what they think is ACCEPTABLE for OUR behavior. My good thoughts go out to any woman who is stepping up/out/over the line that has been drawn for us over centuries by the power group who has made the rules and don't understand the "other's" experiences, which they haven't have, but judge the "other" nontheless.
Jean
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I think the vast majority of men have been conditioned from birth to expect women to be pliable and easily subjugated, and it really does confuse their expectations and cause them to experience a sense of being threatened when they come upon a confident and knowledgeable woman. Not women's fault at all, but men just cannot view men and women through the same lens. They cannot.
Except when they have very carefully been taught otherwise.
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What still rings in my ears all these years later - when talking with one of my grandsons when he was all of 4 years old and with 3 boys so close in age - Sally quit being a school teacher and took a position at the local day care which then she had her 3 boys at the day care - so talking with Cody about who he knew and played with when they played out of doors, Cody is one of the twins who was a very physically active and sociable little boy - his response - he only played with boys now and could no longer play with, I forget the girls name - because girls and here he gets up on tip toe with his fingers daintily together - cannot get their dress dirty or their hands dirty. Then, in a higher voice he imitates what he hears them say. And so he then gets sorta sad that he lost his friend but then with a great show of enthusiasm announces all the neat things his new 'boy' friends and he did in the playground.
We do it - we want our girls to look cute - and it begins early...
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Yes, oh yes!
But it appears that the girl's parents had a hand in this.........why can't she get her hands and dress dirty!?!?! Why was she wearing something to day care that would not allow her to be free and inquisitive and creative?
Don't misunderstand me, i was not a let-it-all-hang-out Mother. But children need to be allowed to be children and to be investigators, and girls no less than boys.
Yes, Marypage, but even my very carefully taught son, altho usually very equitable, has had to be reminded by his Mother on occasion to listen to himself and realize what he just said. There are so many forces out there battling against our teachings.
Jean
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Jean yes, it starts with those in the family giving moms the cutest little dresses and then she shops in the girls department and then we have teens and what are girl teens all about - clothes and nails and hair even if they are playing sports unless they are on the way to being top notch in their sport. But for most girls it is not cool to be a tomboy so where does it start and if there is to be a change where does that happen -
Certainly I too fell for the pretty and cute baby this and that and making the special back to school dress and special Christmas dress - yes, my daughter played in the backyard wearing jeans and shorts but she played more on the swing than in the sandbox not because I said anything - somehow there were sublet messages because she did her fair share of hiking and swimming and canoing and even fishing and hunting but no softball much less baseball or long distant bike riding or spending time with a friend exploring the areas be the creek or following the deer trails or getting into trouble for exploring houses as they were being built like her brothers and the other boys in the neighborhood.
Only saying there is something more than the obvious because yes, the little girl must have been told not to get her dress dirty - I doubt it was a very good dress - it was probably knowing the area something picked up at Walmart for girls to wear to school. But like some Moms say to the kids as the go out the door 'be careful' which I detest thinking they do not need to be hampered but need to be encouraged to explore and there are Moms that say do not get dirty - they sure are able to not get dirty or stay safe on their computers in the house - no wonder moms do not urge them out of doors and now everyone is afraid their kid will be molested or kidnapped -
So girls are still warned to not get dirty and the boys do not get this message - we think it is cute to empty their pockets when doing laundry and finding worms and toads and pieces of sticks - but not many moms think that is cute if they are emptying the pockets of the daughter's jeans.
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I wore nothing but dresses when growing up, because that was all I was allowed to wear (exceptions were snowsuits and bathing suits), and I ran with the boys and did all the boy things. I constantly had a sash torn from one side of my dresses (remember all those sashes that made a bow in the back?) and the back, always the back for some reason, of my hem torn open. There was a lot of mending going on in front of the radio in my home!
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Dresses in school and public, but home,, my much loved jeans and jodhpurs for riding.. Farm kids got dirty, so it never occurred to me not to. Never liked dolls, my horse and dogs were my best friends and constant companions. i was so lucky in a Dad who made sure I got to be what I wanted to be.
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I do though still remember how it was a no no if a girl attended class in pants of any kind - my daughter was in school when that became an issue - I think they finally relented when they saw the hurrah that was taking place over short skirts so that pants became the lessor evil.
I think like all of you most girls do wear clothes that they can tear around in and get dirty when they are home but school was where you interacted with boys and girls and where appropriate public behavior was expected - it was only a couple of years ago when the furor about girls wearing leggings to school erupted - kids act differently in what they wear and if they did not then inner city charter schools would not be affecting behavior by a uniform dress code -
I just see that boys on their own with no 'discussions' by a parent learn that girls cannot join them on the playground and when they are very young they do not understand why and girls dressed for school are expected to act a certain way that squelches what we label the Tomboy but in reality is what we hope is the way for an equal shot at life as adults. So far schools teach separate but supposedly equal and we all know has separate but equal worked out for the Blacks.
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was in college in the late 50's and we could not wear pants to class or upstairs in the dorm. picnics, yes, but even fraternity parties , it was a no..
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I was in El/Hi school from 1941 through 1953 and college from 1953-57. We could always wear pants to school; in fact, my crowd's "uniform" in high school was jeans rolled up twice, a sloppy shirt, penny loafers and white socks. Don't remember wearing anything like that to class/parties/etc. in college but certainly could in the dorm or to casual campus events.
The socks always had to be white, though. Girls who wore colored socks were "not nice". :)
In college, we only wore earrings if we had on "heels" and then they were to be "discreet". Friends who went to other colleges wore great big earrings with everything. (Pierced ears weren't "in" at the time).
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Wow your school district was ahead of things weren't they - having attended Catholic School and graduated High School a tad before you in '51 of course no pants but my daughter attended Public High here in Austin between '69 and graduated in '72 and still the dress code included no pants and the mini skirt was causing problems but being a skirt it took a year or so and then it had to at first come to the knee then it had be so many inches from the floor and girl's skirts were measured if they appeared to a teacher too short. She had graduated before the dress code changed to include pants.
As to my grandboys in the Day Care Centers that my daughter-in-law took a job - one was in El Paso and the other in Lubbock - it was in El Paso that Cody realized he could no longer play with the girls even if they were his friends. Having visited the day care (I would make the long drive for Easter, Thanksgiving, and the boys Birthdays while visiting my other grands for Christmas, 4th of July and those 2 boys Birthdays) anyhow back to seeing them in Day Care and never saw a little girl in that day care with pants or shorts - they all wore dresses - now up in Lubbock a few wore denim overalls but most wore skirts - Found a pattern from 1992 that includes pants for little girls and those split skirts that were the cross over from skirts to pants that started about then.
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/034/1/7587418/il_570xN.538025466_h42l.jpg)
And still when you go to Walmart where many shop for school clothes there are racks and racks of skirts and jumper type dresses with leggings and dresses make of Tshirt fabric - not as many fussy dresses but far more dresses than pants for girls wearing the small sizes - across the street I see the children in the playground at the elementary school and lots of girls in skirts and dresses and seldom tearing around or playing basketball with the boys.
To me it is not just what they do or don't wear it is the non-mixing playtime where you learn the give and take that appears more separated now than even when most of us were kids and still played outdoors with all the kids in the neighborhood - I see moms making playdates mixing boys and girls till they are about 4 or 5 and then it stops. I've heard many a mom say - oh the boys were too rough for ___ her daughter's name.
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Barb, I began teaching in Amarillo in 1957 and definitely could not wear pants to school! Since I taught 2nd Grade, heels weren't practical but I wouldn't have even considered wearing "sports shoes" (did we even have those back then?).
Wish we had had the tights/skirts back in high school instead of those darned crinoline petticoats! One of my college sorority roommates used to pile hers on my bed - until I started gathering them all up and putting them out in the hall!
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We wore those stupid crinolines.. Sigh. I have pictures of me with the darndest wide skirts on.. My granddaughter wore pants most of them time and still does.She is not fond of dresses except for parties.
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Did anyone catch Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning? Me, I never watch the whole show, because that is not, for me, sitting down and watching television time. But I DO turn it on in my bedroom while making my bed and tiding up, getting dressed and so forth. Well, remember when I was expressing my deeply visceral dislike of football? It came into full bloom for me again this morning as they had on the author of FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS. Apparently this is the 25th anniversary of that book coming out, and the author has had an anniversary edition published with an epilogue that tells what has happened to the people in the original book. While being interviewed by the gang this morning, he was asked about the present condition of what the book describes as a "religion" in Texas, and he does not seem to find anything changed: he tells of one town in Texas that has just spent FIFTY-EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS on a new football stadium for their High School, while another has just spent SIXTY MILLION on the same! And he goes on to lament the subjects no longer required of these players to take and pass before graduating. And something in me curls up and dies, because High School is supposed to be all about preparing young people intellectually to take on their adult positions in this world, and in this instance it is all about satisfying the sport that thrills the innards of the adults of the communities those clueless children are being raised in.
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Could be MaryPage - however, I do not hear or know about any other endeavor that so unites a community, all ages, to get behind any initiative that raised that kind of money - libraries are donated and a few get behind maintaining the book selections, playgrounds are installed through taxes etc. but there is no unifying activity that so energizes a community to contribute everything from baked goods, to in the early days making uniforms, to their enthusiasm, there yell, creating all sorts of sidelines like cheerleaders, kids practicing their music in order to put on a half time show, the florists hiring extra help on football weekends, the teams nearly all have doctors from the community on the sidelines, on and on every skill and bit of energy is behind this endeavor which binds a community together - it is a team activity and a team attitude is created in the community.
A community that does not have theater, which let's face it not as many in the school or community would be as involved, usually the community does not have even a movie house. The teens cannot attend the dance halls without an adult and dancing has not grabbed nearly as many adults as those who like watching others play. It has to be an activity that can take place during the school year when the students are not working and the organization of their week leaves Friday and Saturday night without any urgency for any accomplishment.
In these small towns the only thing for kids to do on a Friday night is illegally buy their beer and go cow tipping or make out in each other's houses or some other secret place as we hear so many teens who are bored and have no interaction with the adults in their community. Not to say there are not teens in this state who do just that however, there are more of them involved in their community pride than in those areas without a team.
Where there is a strongly engaged support for a community effort it sets the stage for the future when communities get behind bringing back to life another community that experienced some devastation. There is not another state that got behind and adopted so many who lived through Katrina and the same when the Blanco flooded the communities along its banks. That ability to make things happen by a community of people all donating their time, energy, money etc. is born in a community with a strong spirit that usually has been built around the team sport called Football. I see it right here in my neighborhood as individual concerns become the neighborhood's concerns, so much so they roll up their sleeves and do something rather than fill the air with complaints.
I think to judge the choice of activity we are saying that we like the spirit of the community if it were just behind another activity - fair enough except, there does not appear to be another activity that the sport itself creates community among the players and fully engages the entire community to give it their all for support and enjoyment.
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Ludicrous! My only counter question is do the f-ball programs bring in enough money to pay for the stadiums/programs?
Oh, yes, I wore skirts all thru my public school days, (the 40s and 50s) thru snow storms and bitter cold days, often with slacks under them til I got to school, and college and at my first teaching job in the middle if the 60s. I didn't mind wearing them as a teacher since that gave me some status. I was teaching secondary, not primary, school, so I didn't have to get down on the floor, or stoop to face the students - altho, as I think about it now, NONE of my elementary teachers Got down on the floor with us. Lol. Teaching has changed.
At my second job at the end of the 60s, we did begin to wear dress slacks. When I first started to work for Dept of Army, all FOUR of the civilian women (out of about forty people) who went to the Chief of Staff's meetings wore skirts on those days. Slowly that evolved to nice pants suits, partly because the one or two military women present were wearing their BDUs (the camouflage that you usually see military men and women wearing) which was their daily work uniform.
I wonder what the fashion is for C of S meetings today? Things have gotten so casual in the workplace today that I recently heard that "casual Friday" has now become " dress-up Friday". 😊😊
Jean
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Jean like any community activity football is not meant as a money earning enterprise - it is to support kids, and to bring together the community which there will always be a few who know their way around money to make sure these stadiums can be built. Even migrants for years when they came to work from some small community in Mexico that is not even named on the map the first thing they did was pool their money to build in their home town a soccer field or a baseball field which brings all the people together in a joyous way. They had no medical no schools lots of poverty but they had their sports field that united everyone. This is not about profit and loss this is about building teams and a community getting behind that team making themselves into a team. I think we have to ask is there anything - any other activity that brings together an entire community all offering their bit.
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When “Friday Night Lights, A Town, A Team and A Dream” first hit store shelves in 1990, the Texas town featured in the 432-page book was so incensed over the portrayal of itself and its football team that death threats came to author H.G. “Buzz” Bissinger and a planned book tour was scrapped. So next month, a 25th anniversary edition of the book is being published — and Bissinger will follow that up in September with a long-postponed book tour to Texas. “The book is now recognized as a classic and we think he will be welcomed in Odessa,” said David Steinberger, the CEO of Perseus Books, which will publish the updated edition under its Da Capo Press imprint. The book was tapped by Sports Illustrated as the best football book ever and ESPN calls it the best sports book of the past quarter-century. Bissinger is now a contributing writer at Vanity Fair who wrote the Caitlyn Jenner cover story for the July issue. At the time, he was a 34-year-old journalist who shared a Pulitzer Prize for an investigative series on corruption for the Philadelphia Inquirer. “Friday Night Lights” was his first major non-fiction book. “I knew it was a great story at the time,” he told Media Ink on Tuesday. “As a journalist, you know. But I never anticipated what it would become. I think it resonated with people everywhere because they all went to high school and they said it reminded them of their own high school. I still get three or four inquiries or emails a week about it. ”It didn’t hurt that there was a 2004 movie starring Billy Bob Thornton as Gary Gaines, the team’s coach, followed by an NBC/DirecTV television drama where Kyle Chandler, starring as the coach, and Connie Britton, as his wife, both won Emmys for their roles in the drama. A new “Afterword” will update readers on what has happened to quarterback Mike Winchell, running back James “Boobie” Miles, who suffered a tragic injury in the book, and four other teammates, Brian Chavez, Jerrod McDougal, Ivory Christian and Don Billingsley. Originally published by AddisonWesley — which sold its trade books division to Perseus in 1998 — it has sold more than 2 million copies. “I’m more curious than anything about going back,” said Bissinger, who lived in Odessa while writing the book. Permian High School, once the winningest football program in the state, is not the same powerhouse it was in the late 1980s. Back then, Bissinger said, there were 19,000 people in Ratliff Stadium every week. The crowd, he said, was a lot more intense than those at NFL games. “They were looking to kids to fulfill their hopes and dreams,” he said. The book followed the fortunes of the 1988 Permian Panthers, who came within a hair of winning the state championship. Bissinger will spend three days in Odessa in September before moving to Houston, Dallas and Austin.
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Barb - I love the way sports draw a community together. My high school Friday nights were always at a game thru football and basketball season. I lived in a small town just like you speak of, little to do, but a great community feel about supporting the high school teams. One nephew has been the basketball coach in that town for almost three decades. My son is the football coach of a similar town, altho in a suburban area where there are many more things to do.
My question alludes to spending 60 MILLION dollars on a stadium, no matter where the money comes from. A community gathering together to build a soccer field is quite a different thing. Could the community make do (😜) with a two million dollar football field and put 50+ MILLION into other programs, say academics, art, music? That would never happen. That saddens me so.
Big bucks are collected all over the country for sports programs, no such campaign would happen to support art or music or academic programs! What's up with companies, wealthy men and local residents having that much passion for only sports?
Jean
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The complicated relationships of Queens Elizabeth and Victoria and Prince Phillip!
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/rulers20thcentury/f/How-Are-Queen-Elizabeth-Ii-And-Prince-Philip-Related.htm?utm_content=20150909&utm_medium=email&utm_source=exp_nl&utm_campaign=list_womenshistory&utm_term=list_womenshistory
Lol
One of my favorite nonfiction books is Grandmama of Europe, about Victoria, of course, and how her progeny have ruled over Europe. Let me check that title, I think that's the right one.
yes, it is, the author is Theo Aronson
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I hear you Jean but then I came to terms years ago my taste and values are not shared by everyone - and for me to judge how others accumulate the zeal for an activity is really sour grapes on my part because I could not or do I know of those who share my interests do the same as those who can and have. We all have a different level or placement for what we value - where I am not into football I do smile when I see the enthusiasm and urge to be the best among those who are into the game - Frankly I would not spend a few hours watching a baseball game or lord help us golf - tried to learn once and on the way home from my second lesson fell in the parking lot and broke my arm and some wrist bones - thank god because I thought it was a wasted use of my time - I love to swim and used to sail but watching a sailboat race did not get my heart racing and the same for watching a swimming meet.
Now I will watch and get hooked into a basketball game but for a small town before they have developed the kind of community it takes to build a winning football team they could play football out of doors with planks on buckets for seats - where as Basketball means immediate cost - even if played outdoors it would require a huge concrete slab and to be played indoors not only required a room with a wood floor but it had to take place for a short time in mid-winter or else the additional cost of AC. plus the size of the gym limited the participation of onlookers.
So the start of these teams that grow into the kind of support that can build a multi million dollar stadium has to be feasible given the assets of a small town - vacant land, cool nights as opposed to hot hot days sitting or playing in the sun that lasts till at least Thanksgiving and sometimes longer and then picks up again by mid to late March.
Little kids, whose interest will feed the sport can play football on a Saturday morning in the spring and fall before the noon heat sets in and again, there is little to no expense preparing a field - some places have little league and that is the problem, baseball became so super organized early in a kids association with the game that the fun turned into a competitive race run by the adults. And those power hungry adults make no room for community participation.
As much as I enjoy a good basketball game it does not garner the enthusiasm and excitement of a football game - there are no tailgate picnics prepared by moms and served by dads in the parking lot before a basketball game - there are no marching bands strutting their stuff - Basketball can have a star - football is not a one man show even with a star quarterback - school choir and band is limited to those who can afford lessons or instruments as a little kid that will grow into school age interest. We have seen what donating to the poor does - as Oprah learned, very little - it helps only the family that can take hold, want and push for education and then they move out of the area - where as a community built around a sport includes everyone
If all this developed community on and off the field creates the kind of fever that exceeds the average investment in the sport's field and watching stadium then, to me the invested money is far more meaningful than those who spend thousands on some, to me inane, collection of dolls or toy trains or star wars or garages full of sports cars or whatever - the difference is they are individual collections and do not bring out the pride of a supportive community. That sense of pride and community has my interest even if I do see another worthwhile endeavor - beside I doubt it is an either/or -
When I look at the good work these 'stars' of any sport do in their community when they no longer play the game it is astounding. They may not have the education of our sons and daughters that attended the same collage but they sure impact the lives of more folks than our sons and daughters ever will.
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I agree with eve rything you said, i still believe tens of millions ofdollars spent on a high school stadium is a waste of money, even if it were for my son's team. :). We agree to disagree, which is o.k. In my book.
Jean
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:D
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It's ok with me, as well and all, but I cannot help lamenting in my soul what I see as a dumbing down of the ingredients of a public High School diploma of today as compared with one from my times: 1947. Granted where History and Science are concerned, there is ever so much more to learn. But surely today's technology makes the entire learning process much easier because today's students have instant access to every possible facet of information. I mean, when I was researching and writing a paper, I was pretty much limited to my textbook and what was available in the very limited school library. Now research tools are truly limitless. So why don't today's kids all carry at least the academic load that my entire graduating class did? Granted I have great grandchildren who are taking AP and IB courses and attending special schools for the gifted, and I am dumbfounded at the load they carry and how much they are learning, but these are the exception and not the rule. COLLEGES, for crying out loud, are tearing their hair out because Freshmen are pouring in, and these supposed to be the best the country has to offer, and they cannot write (make that print) a coherent sentence! One wonders who wrote their college application essays! Even here at the Naval Academy, where only the best and the brightest need apply, the remedial work that has to be given in the most ordinary of disciplines such as English and Mathematics before they can bring a class up to snuff is APPALLING! I know, I know. I'm a stupid complaining old woman! But hey, this is what I hear from those still in the teaching workforce!
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Well I agree but then I have no clue how to get around that teachers are now dealing with students that need physical care and they need mamas and dads - sounds awful but I am amazed at how many handicapped kids are in the schools that a teacher is now expected to be a nurse and physical therapist in order to handle her class - and then the estimate is that a quarter to a third of the classes in a public school regardless rural or city one or both parents are in jail and then we did go through about 20 or more years ago the whole issue of tax dollars only paying for reading writing and arithmetic - it is only in the past few years that the voices saying kids learn as much or more from the subjects eliminated have even been heard much less part of these straining school budgets.
And then industry has stuck its hands into the economic pie of school funding saying it should be the grounds for a steady flow of workers towards their industry so that school is no longer a way to open the mind and establish personal values but it has been taken over as the initial preparation for a job that used to be done by the company at the companies expense during the first 6 months of employment. Having done away with vocational high school the average student is receiving the education similar to the old vocational high students and only those whose parents know what is needed and expected in collage are taking the AP classes.
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Oh my, we had a football team in high school in Delaware and also at the U. of Del., but it did not seem to rise to the heights.. We were really excited in the last two years of high school just to get lights.. My sons went to college at schools that do not emphasize football, As a matter of fact, it was hysterical one year at Tufts, my oldest went there and they had a winning season, Which shocked the entire college.. Their stadium is or was mostly a laid back sort of football field with wooden bleachers.. All in all, not an important part of their lifel
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In Chattanooga/Hamilton County, each high school has its own stadium. And they're all falling apart. One has just been condemned by the city, and another is about half closed off and unusable. One of the front page stories in the paper this morning was that the school board has said there's just no money to repair or replace the stadiums (stadia?). And, for the first time, there's some mention of having one or two stadiums that all the teams in the system would use. It will be interesting to see what happens when this turns into a p..sing contest.
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In this small rural town, I always shake my head at the money spent without a blink on a stadium for our high school that is used...maybe 6 times a year? AND, don't forget the additional "practice field" because we couldn't mess with the grass or special turf on the "real" field! We have a separate padded or whatever track for the track team at the hs. I wonder if the School Board would approve something that expensive for use 6 times a year by the science class or the language class or for an English class.
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You hit the nail on the head there!
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Orlando spent millions revamping an old football stadium, that is probably used six times a year at best. The college has its own stadium, Orlando doesnt have a pro football team, the soccer teams is gettting its own high priced stadium. Male politicians seem to love football stadiumsl
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You've got THAT right! And males rule.
Would that they would fully fund early intervention therapies and training for the learning disabled, dyslexic, and autistic children, who, if they did so, could and would go on to lead productive and independent lives and become earners who paid back into the tax revenues. But no! Oh my, no! These children will never be FOOTBALL PLAYERS! Best they wind up in group homes and drain from the taxpayer's resources for as long as they last. Put the money on those sports "heroes" (I have NEVER been able to figure out how under any definition they can be called heroes, but the useage persists!) and feel that visceral thrill in your gut and expansion of your pride when you go off with your chums to watch the teams prove their manliness in those brightly colored and expensive uniforms while those buxom little cheerleaders strut their stuff.
Priorities!
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Oh MaryPage, the mental image you made is wonderful. I did need a laugh this morning.
I may get slammed about this, but I am concerned. When you look at the videos of the masses moving through Europe.Even though the commentators love to spotlight families, there are many many more males, all in the late teens, twenties, etc alone. I really believe that some bad trouble may come from this.
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I listened to an in depth explanation of what is going on, and it seems to be this: these are mostly Syrians, and a good many (no, not a majority, but a good many) are Christians. All are middle and upper classes, mostly well educated. Have you noticed how many of them speak ENGLISH? The majority ARE NOT Arabs, even those who are Muslim tend not to be Arabs, and therefore not in favor with ISIL. The fundamentalist terrorist groups are all of the Sunni sect and want to kill all the Shia and the non-Arabs. Very complicated, but we need to sort it out in order to understand why whole families have given up all they have to flee: they know they will be KILLED! Many of their kin already have been. These people have had their homes bombed to smithereens, and not by us, but by the Arab terrorists. They have sold off all they have to get out of there. It COSTS MONEY to pay for boats, buses, trains, and food. The poor are left behind. The Sunni Arabs have no reason to flee. My heart breaks for those people trying to save their little ones from death. As for the young, single men: these are from families too poor to come up with the funds to leave as a family, so they sell off all they possibly can and send just one young man, hoping he will make it and find a new country and a job and send funds so that they may follow and join him. These young men are their only hope!
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Here is another stark reason the families are pouring into Europe. When it is that or starve, you shove off and go. Hope is all you have left in this world.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34196629
http://news.yahoo.com/asylum-in-europe--the-difference-between-migrants-and-refugees-and-what-s-at-stake-183639355.html#
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?_r=0
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I note that non try for Russia or any of the peaceful arab countries or Africa or the orient.. I just feel that the small european countries cannot afford to have this sort of influx..
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Where in Africa? Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria: all in turmoil. How can they get to Asia, and who there would take them? The Chinese? They have a huge population problem now. All of the Arab states are up in arms with factions warring, and of the Muslim peoples fleeing here, most are Shia or smaller sects that the Sunni hate. Most of those Arab states are Sunni. Iran is Shia but not Arab! There are no peaceful Arab states other than Jordan, and Jordan has taken over FOUR MILLION of them! The Russian people are totally xenophobic, and have never welcomed anyone in. So the ifs, buts and ands multiply and are myriad. Bottom line, these folk HAVE no where to go other than up into Europe. We have, and have done so CONSCIOUSLY, with many of our politicians still insisting upon no birth control whatsoever, overpopulated this world and now we have reached the point in time long predicted by those studying the figures and issuing the warnings: millions of children will die. Now Hungary is saying they will start shooting them just as soon as their razor wire fence is completed! Yes, the children, too! Look at the maps and tell me where these people can walk to? Do you hear anyone offering to fetch them? They are dead ducks, and they basically know it, but desperation makes them attempt to seek a safe haven. There is within every human being a strong desire to live, and most especially to have one's children survive.
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If Germany takes 1 million refuges that represents only 1% of their population.
Jordan before the influx had a population of 4.97 million and now with only partial numbers for those who fled to Jordan officially Jordan is just below 7 million. Only using the official numbers they have added 70% to their population, all without anything, these were not the folks who had the kind of money it takes to reach Germany that includes a boat road that cost each member of the family minimum $1200. Those in Jordan who do have that kind of money have recently all left for Germany leaving the poor behind.
If we are trying to visualize this migration as compared to the migration from El Salvador, Costa Rico and Mexico remember, of those who were NOT born in this country there are over 13 million - a big difference. Also, the vast majority of those from South of us who migrated were laborers rather than middle class professionals which make up the migration reaching Germany.
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You are exactly right, and another sad thing to consider is that the very poor and uneducated are going to be all that is left of Syria when the battles die down there. That country will be swept clean of their professionals: leaving no doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners. Did you notice one man fleeing said he had been a factory OWNER until bombs destroyed both his home and his factory? It is civil wars such as this that put civilizations and cultures back in the third world fix. Basically, that is what happened when Islam was, in fact, the leading intellectual civilization in the world, back in the 7th, 8th and 9th centuries A.D. Wars within Islam itself, all the various sects, plus wars with other civilizations and the rise of fundamentalist Islam decimated and ruined that great culture. War drags a lot of good, forward thinking cultures back into the abyss of myth and ignorance. Also, the huge migration of peoples seeking refuge from those wars changes the makeup of the tribes they wind up living with. Unfortunately, we are in a place today, with the planet overpopulated, that we cannot sustain these migrations.
We had a refugee problem here last year, although our politicians and media have been reluctant on the whole to tell the truth of it. Tens of thousands of CHILDREN came pouring over our border all by themselves, without family other than those that traveled with siblings. Their poor, beleaguered parents paid to send them up here for safety, as their tribes, clans, sects, whatever, were being sought out and killed by ethnic or political groups wanting to cleanse El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras of all who were not like themselves. Too poor to come here themselves, they sent their young children who were able to walk and help one another to get up here and have a chance to LIVE. These were true refugees, and yet we have not officially recognized them as such. Politicians are referring to them as "illegal Mexicans." They were neither Mexicans nor illegal migrants, but true refugees and the last hope of their ethnic groups.
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Thinking about it MaryPage - this migration out of Syria and the Middle East are as we have been made aware the educated middle class leaving behind the poor - the poor are not very well educated and as Obama said, and was quoted to his dismay, that fear turns the uneducated to guns and religion -
OK the big issue we hear nothing about is that the Middle East is a organized and governed by tribalism - there is no democracy even in voting - you vote as your tribe leader tells you to vote - their income is affected by tribal purity. Most of the wealth producing industry is owned or financed within a tribe - you break with the tribe and you do not get your cut of the profits - even parks are owned by tribes and police can detect if you are or not a tribal member - we may not know the clues but then we can pretty much see who belongs in an area and who does not. It is also the basis for a girl wearing the clothing that hides her from public gazes - if she marries outside her tribe not only she but her entire family no longer receives the annual sum from the profits of the tribal investments.
Those in the Middle East who all have now been exposed to the standard of living in other parts of the world question their standard of living and typical to the strong arm tactic of tribal leaders from the history of tribes the stronger that leadership the more folks will comply to what the leader knows how to accomplish - yes, there are differences in Sunni versus Shia but that is a secondary layer to the tribal connection.
Some tribes are huge with millions and others small with a few thousand - so far I found over 300 tribes - we never hear which tribe is associated with what the fight is about only as if it were a Shia Sunni fight - yes, some tribes are all Shia or Sunni but some are not sliced along religious lines.
Tribes have always fought with each other like a huge never ending chess game. Those leaders who can cause a thorn in the side of one tribe to go after another that is the manipulative leaders enemy is how it has worked - so we fell for it - the thorn that was probably about oil and oh dear look how badly Saddam Hussein treats his people so that we were horrified and in we went fighting what looked like a Shia war to get rid of the centuries of leadership by the Sunni that if we really can get to the bottom of it was probably a Tribe that was Shia that extended it living area into Iran attempting to topple the tribe or tribes that have held the power for centuries.
Well my question is who were and from what tribe were the seven defected Syrian officers who started this mess in Syria - their grip was the same used by Bush against Saddam Hussein - they hated the Ba'athists which is what Saddam Hussein was as is Assad - the Ba'athists started in Syria. The Ba'athists was the best hope for the Middle East however, IT INTERFERED WITH US PROFIT MAKING INTERESTS.
A Ba'athist society seeks enlightenment, renaissance of Arab culture, values and society. It supports the creation of single-party states, and rejects political pluralism in an unspecified length of time – the Ba'ath party theoretically uses an unspecified amount of time to develop an enlightened Arabic society. Ba'athism is based on principles of Arab nationalism, pan-Arabism, Arab socialism, as well as social progress. It is a SECULAR ideology. A Ba'athist state supports socialist economics to a varying degree, and supports public ownership over the heights of the economy but opposes the confiscation of private property. Socialism in Ba'athist ideology does not mean state socialism or economic equality, but modernisation; Ba'athists believe that socialism is the only way to develop an Arab society which is truly free and united.
And so our oil interests would mean working with the government or if a tribe owns the oil well than we would continue to work with the tribal leadership. However, the Ba'athist philosophy would allow for a Middle East to join the twentieth century at least if not the twenty-first century - ISIS is pulling folks back to an society run on traditional religious values and corruption. Assad was a good guy if you think Ba'athist's are the way to go and now has become ruthless like any fighting a civil war - we forget that even during our own Civil War one of the 5 mentioned on all of known history that used the scorched earth tactic to win, that even Stalin used it against fleeing German Soldiers - we are the only nation that it was used against women and children by Sherman - so when we listen to the news with all the horrors they are pinning on Assad - yes, but it is war.
Plus, now the original group that started this mess are a minority as others piled in that we interpreted as the Arab Spring but it was the usual way that tribal interests are played out - I have lots and lots of books, over a dozen, I can share the title and authors, most 80% written by Middle Eastern authors rather than English or American authors, who come from our individualistic thinking - there is no individualism in a tribal society.
All to say with the middle class gone the poor will docilely abide by their tribal leaders and turn to their religion and guns used against other tribes as they have for centuries and yes, this sends the Middle East back into the Middle Ages where it was just tip toeing out of. However, it keeps bribery intact and an easier time for those taking profit out of the Middle East by dealing with tribal leaders rather than a government interested in progress without religious law running the show.
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this is a another area of the world and directly involves the life of women in Italy by an Italian author who is all the rage.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/audio/2015/sep/04/elena-ferrante-naples-quartet-podcast?CMP=EMCBKSEML3964
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I watched the Republican debate on CNN last night, and the one thing that upset me more than any other was the blatant lies Ted Cruz told about Planned Parenthood.
I know them to be lies, and it has appeared ever so briefly in newspapers and magazines and on television that they are lies, but no one seems to notice or care. PBS has done some radio shows giving the correct information, also; but hey, the people who listen to their radio are already informed.
What is blowing my mind is how the public and the media can let this stuff slide. And where, I am wondering, is the wave of push back I keep expecting from the millions upon millions of women Planned Parenthood has helped? From Planned Parenthood and its big time supporters themselves? I have seen Cecile Richards appear on shows like Rachel Maddow and Chris Matthews, and she always sets the record straight. But again, these shows have loyal followers who already know the truth. Yet when the entire country is tuned in to One Big Show and Cruz lets fly with the terrible lies, no one controdicts him. Why?
For the record, there will be no indictment and trial for Planned Parenthood about selling baby parts. The investigations of this terrible lie have already taken place and it was found that Planned Parenthood was doing NO SUCH THING! Also, the tape made by that fanatical right wing fundamentalist group was studied carefully by the authorities, the original was demanded and compared, and it was found to have been a dramatically doctored film edited and put together in such a way as to condemn the people working at one Planned Parenthood clinic. But with Planned Parenthood having been found without fault and this film having been proved to be a fraud, WHY & HOW can our media tolerate Cruz continuing to tell the Big Lie? This really guts my belief in fairness and truth.
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I think everyone is tuning in because they enjoy a media free for all circus no different than the superbowl - not sure how many are taking any of them seriously. I wouldn't worry till next winter when we start to get more serious with actual Caucasus. Now they are simply like kids back in the early part of the 20th century who thought it great fun to shoot fireworks off at each other while standing on opposite sides of the street.
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Here is a fascinating site. If you want to know, for instance, WHAT answers they gave that were false, click on the false or whatever and it will give you an exact list.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/lists/people/fact-checking-2016-gop-presidential-candidates/
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For the record, there will be no indictment and trial for Planned Parenthood about selling baby parts. The investigations of this terrible lie have already taken place and it was found that Planned Parenthood was doing NO SUCH THING! Also, the tape made by that fanatical right wing fundamentalist group was studied carefully by the authorities, the original was demanded and compared, and it was found to have been a dramatically doctored film edited and put together in such a way as to condemn the people working at one Planned Parenthood clinic.
Where did you find this info? What 'authorities'? I haven't seen anything like this? I keep hearing journalists (even CNN last night) stating emphatically that the videos are lies, but I haven't seen anything like a real study having been done?
I heard the producer of the videos in an interview - he explained that they were edited as they were 20 hours in length. Then I saw an article (pro-Democrat) that covered Democrat congressmen invited to hear the group; they received unedited copies of the dvd's (as did Republican congressmen).
Planned Parenthood is an organization with many resources at hand - lawyers on retainer, etc. And, if these videos are really untrue, and detrimental to their organization as they are, surely they can (and should) sue? That would settle it all immediately! But why haven't they?
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They probably have. I don't know. As for what I wrote, I have heard and read it over and over, just always bit pieces in passing, except for when I have heard and seen Cecile Richards. That is my beef, i.e., that the facts are not writ large for all to see and hear, whereas the lies are loud and clear.
I have a relationship here. I grew up with Planned Parenthood. Used to accompany my aunt some days when she went there on one errand or another, and I would sit on the end of someone's desk and read or color until she was ready to scoop me up and whisk me off to wherever it was we were headed. I knew everyone there some 75+ years ago; probably all dead now. My aunt was the President of the Washington D.C. chapter for years and years, and I am familiar with and proud of the organization. It is and always has been and always will be all about women's health, and if you do not personally BELIEVE this, I suggest you go to a clinic or an office and introduce yourself and explain that you would like to hear their side of the question. It is as simple as that.
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http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/07/31/indiana-clears-planned-parenthood-of-wrongdoing/204705
http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2015/09/house-gop-planned-parenthood-may-be-innocent-but-who-cares.html
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Fiorina is just as bad.... I have looked at several true and false articles and they all without a flinch say that what she said she saw was a lie. No living babies lying anywhere. She did a bad job as a CEO and is not any better, but the debates actually remind me of the stories of ancient Rome.. Shall we turn out thumbs down???
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I agree. That she is. Only worse, because she is betraying so many millions of other women.
And yes, the news shows last night were full of being aghast at her lying so blatantly. I can only think that some zealot she trusts assured her that that was what was in the video he or she saw, and so Carly is willing to swear that SHE saw those things. I heard it was on the front page of the very Republican WALL STREET JOURNAL that she could not possibly have seen such a tape.
Oh dear! I labored so hard and so faithfully for so long, 30 years it was, for the Republican Party. The party of Lincoln and Eisenhower. They must be truly uneasy in their graves. By the way, Bernie Sanders was on Rachel Maddow last night, and they were like peanut butter and grape jelly: perfectly in sync and just what the tummy ordered after lurching so insanely through the tall tale telling sound bites that are being touted as debating. Wow! My old debating society would have seen all of its members expelled from the ranks if we had tried anything of the kind! We had to have in our possession all sources, backup and FACTS. What fun it was! We met every other Wednesday night in a party room in the back of a Chinese Restaurant in Centreville, Virginia. Our host and founder taught History at George Mason University and wrote a whole lot of books about the Civil War.
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No living babies lying anywhere.
It was in a video. Have you seen the videos? Even CNN, doing fact checks after the debate, said it was just a very short piece of the video.
I have a relationship with Planned Parenthood also; both good and bad experiences. I try to keep an open mind. I too have heard bits and pieces. Indiana (and I will look carefully) probably cleared their agencies? I think the states are handling the matter - some quite different than others.
I do not believe that Planned Parenthood has sued. They sought an injunction on the release of the videos so they could prepare a response. That injunction has long since been lifted. Maybe 'bits and pieces' is all the media can give without making themselves liable? I don't know. I'm sure they are being careful. But ALL congresspersons have access to the uncut videos. My allegiance is to women and families - not to a multi-million dollar agency.
I was encouraged to see that a group of feminists (without a religious affiliation) have formed an organization: Feminists for Non-Violent Choices. They contend (and I have some agreement here, having counseled many women in these situations) that abortion is the greatest hoax men have played on women.
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"... after an investigation sparked by a shady anti-choice organization's heavily edited videos was completed. ...
The move came just days after The Center for Medical Progress released a deceptive video claiming that Planned Parenthood was "selling aborted baby parts" that was roundly called out by the media for "show[ing] nothing illegal" and having selectively edited footage. The investigation was launched despite the fact Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky "does not participate in any tissue donation program." "
A quote from the first citation. Like debate (and I think Carly Fiorana and Ben Carson actually had more researchable facts in their arguments) formal writing (including journalism) requires unbiased reporting. These issues are so emotional I have a hard time finding unbiased reporting - as is the complaint on both sides. I wish someone would report factual material without the constant editorials; an example is highlighted above.
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The sad fact is that integrity was no where in sight for most of those candidates. (I'm not aware of any lies spoken by Bush or Paul) Huckabee, Fiorini, not to mention Trump who just sputters and spits out any absurb thing that hops onto his brain all misrepresented the truth. Paul was right, Trump behaves like a 15 yr old, "whatever I have to say to dispute you at the moment, including name-calling! Facts be gone!"
It is also very sad that Fiorini doesn't have more fortitude in standing for women. Even if I was anti-abortion, I would be able to understand the difference between the 97% of their services that are so helpful to women and have nothing to do with abortion and that none of their federal funds are used for abortion services. Apparently most of the Republican representatives can't be objective adults concerning this issue either. I'm very sad at the disappearance from the public forum of moderate Republicans.
Trump's non-response to the audience member who said Obama was a Muslin was appalling, as well as his not countering that Muslins in general are not a problem to this country. He, and others on that stage, need to grow up and give us some adult, responsible debate. Hillary just said the comments have "no place in our politics......it was discriminatory......"
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I wish Hillary would stop side-stepping calls for debate. It's easy to criticize the other side when you aren't putting yourself on the line, don't you think?
Fiorino did step up and 'defend women', though I don't know if it was heard. The sound bites did not reflect what happened in the debates, do you think? They were highly edited for the 'let's you and them fight' crowd, I think. Well...there are those pesky ratings, eh?
97% of their services that are so helpful to women and have nothing to do with abortion and that none of their federal funds are used for abortion services.
I have seen this argument touted frequently, but when I attempted to analyze the data it seems to be quite deceptive - again, on both sides. Planned Parenthood reports each separate service as a unit of service. And counseling includes all forms, including counseling for/preparing for abortion. And dispensing birth-control includes abortifacients. It is very unclear how much of their over-all services are reflected in the 'abortion' area, which is one of the complaints of congress.
At one time they were the agency to go to for women's health; that just isn't true any more. And other agencies, many of which do a fantastic job, do not get the same recognition - or funding.
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Of course, Jeb Bush couldn't come up with one AMERICAN woman in history who should be on the $10 bill is appalling also. He said Margaret Thatcher!!! Really!?! You have to kowtow so much to your right wing supporters that you can't come up with an American!?! Even Ayn Rand??? Or someone as non-partisan as Harriet Tubman or Harriet Beecher Stowe??? Of course either one od those might lose some southern Rep support.........as I said "no integrity"!!
I'm soooooo sad about our political process.
The Democrats are going to have 5 or 6 debates. We do have more than a year before the elections. Just because the Reps have started their campaigns and need a longer process is not a reason for the Dems to start. If your opposition was making fools of themselves, would you interrupt their behavior? They are shooting themselves in the foot so why should the Dems interrupt that? It does not benefit the Dems to start debates at this point.
The Speaker of the House just restated the lie that PP sells fetal tissue. This has been debunked by objective, non-partisan sources.
Jean
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I am so tired of this nonsense of folks who disagree with the law wanting to break the law by doing all they can to discourage women from making their own choice as if we live in the shoes of every women and therefore, we think we can treat her like a child because we know what is best for her - we have no idea what is a woman's health situation is or what is her ability to raise a child - abortions have been taking place since the before Christ so give it a rest - enough is enough -
Sorry I am seeing this issue of hammering away at abortion as far more than sad - we do not call the kid who is blooded day after day in school living a sad lie - these tactics are those of a bully trying to take away someone's legal right to make a decision because they would make another decision - fine then the law is not stopping anyone from making whatever decision they think is best for themselves - and if there are younger women in their family and feel the younger women should act as if royal administration adminstered all behavior than fine, tell them what to do -
This nonsense is no different than Kim Davis who thinks her viewpoint on behavior is cause for an individual exception to the law - and because it is in the name of her version of God that she and now critiques of abortion are suggesting they should trump the law and they insist on bringing up their views like animal leavings any place and any time - Well the US was established so we do not have any version of God dictating the rules - we have a law in place - they either obey it or get the like minded to change it -
There are no like minded here in this discussion wanting the law to change - I am tired of coming into this discussion risking putting up with harassment and bullying - There is no one in this discussion that agrees with the anti-abortion viewpoint so why keep bringing it up unless it is to spoil for a fight or to bully a group a people - as a contributer to this discussion the title says it is about woman not about birth or abortion - enough...
The word woman does not translate into womb - we are far more than our ability to reproduce - I am so tired of being limited in the mind of same by the tricks our wombs can perform - I thought we were past all of that - if folks like wearing their womb on their sleeve or as a hat - fine but why in a group that sees woman as far more and sees women as having a capable mind of her own - rather than 3 year olds that have been taken in - sheesh it is a wonder any of us got through collage much less run them - women are not tricked - they do what they have to do just as they have since before Christ - the only difference is we were civilized enough that it was thought the procedure should no longer be done in back rooms and allies -
So just please stop brining up this argument here where there are no takers - find like minded folks to share thoughts of anti abortion rather than harassing those who do not agree with that concept...
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I don't know what y'all are talking about! There ARE to be Democratic debates! Hilary was talking about looking forward to them earlier this week!
Tuesday, October 13, 2015 CNN Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Wynn Las Vegas Sponsors: CNN, Nevada Democratic Party
Moderator: Anderson Cooper
Saturday, November 14, 2015 CBS News Democratic Debate
Aired On: CBS Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Sponsors: CBS News, KCCI, the Des Moines Register
Moderator: John Dickerson
Saturday, December 19, 2015 ABC News Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire Sponsors: ABC News, WMUR
Sunday, January 17, 2016 NBC News Democratic Primary Debate
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Sponsors: NBC, Congressional Black Caucus Institute
As for Abortion, it is the law of this land, and I am sick to DEATH of people of other ideas than my being able to have control over my own body with the protection of this law, trying to force their religious beliefs on me. Hey, these are the same people who scream bloody blue murder if it is THEIR religious beliefs they feel are being trampled on insofar as their own selves are concerned, but it is okay to trample on MY beliefs, even to the point of allowing me to DIE (and the fetus, too) because there must be no Abortion even to save the life of the pregnant woman. That quite simply and purely curdles my blood, and to say it is God's will that women should die in those circumstances is the height of human hubris and to me means that it gives men a sick frisson of sexual pleasure to imagine women having to die in this way. Each is probably wishing they could watch it happen and enjoy themselves even more. Sick they are: sick, sick, sick.
And Disgusting!
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Barb - I prefer to let people comment, regardless of which side they are on, as long as they are being respectful in their comments. It makes for a much more interesting discussion, regardless of the topic, than if everyone agrees with each other.
Historiann - blogger on women throughout history - has an interesting perspective on why Fiorina made that explosive comment about PP at the debate.
http://historiann.com/2015/09/18/ghost-children-carly-fiorinas-invocation-of-fetal-and-maternal-suffering/#more-25943
Jean
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I found that fascinating, Jean. Thanks!
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Jean you are right - free speech and all - however, there is a difference between free speech and harassment when a johnny one note has only one gripe that is attempting to re-fight the law of the land I get fed up - if we had others in this discussion that agreed with the johnny one note I could understand but over and over and over the same note and being more outrageous with such lack of compassion during each foray wears - makes me run further from wanting to compromise and only gets me out of sorts.
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Jean, thank you. A wonderful discussion on Fiorina that made sense. I was puzzled by the child who died, but looked her up and disccovered it was a stepdaughter, not that she may not have loved her very much, but it was a big off point to me...
it is odd that we have a poster, that I dont see anywhere but on the
womens Issues page that seems to be very different than most of us. I thing that everyone should be able to post, but I am not happy with the "I know everything and you know nothing" tones.
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Apparently it was not only a step daughter, but she was 35 years old when she died of alcohol and drug abuse. And yes, this IS a child. And yes, it can affect you deeply. But the impression given the world audience was that (1) she has given birth and (2) she lost a YOUNG child. Well, I will give her this: she does not appear to have put a word wrong there, but certainly obfuscated matters!
I stayed up and watched Bill Maher on HBO last night, and boy, am I ever glad I did. He and his panel of 4 really called out the lies and the liars from the Republican debate. As have the folks on MSNBC and CNN. I am beginning, but just beginning, to feel a tad better about the media. I am beginning to relax a little and thus enjoy the show more.
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Thanks for the headsup on Maher. I didn't see it last night, but will look for it in the next couple of days. They repeat it a couple times, that is very helpful.
Jean
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I am eager to hear what you think when you see it.
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Just when my spirits began to rise, due to so many people, in so many forms of media, pitting the Truth against the Lie, I saw an absolutely mind-boggling moment on TV this morning. One of the famous Sunday morning talk shows. A well known anchorman and his panel of experts explaining that the video Carly Fiorina described WAS NOT entirely a film made at Planned Parenthood, but has been proved to be a fraud put together for the sole purpose of attempting to discredit Planned Parenthood. All seemed in agreement, and then a Republican congressman was interviewed and asked if, in view of the facts being out there now, he would still vote to close down the government if Planned Parenthood is not defunded, and, to my complete astonishment (and obviously also to the well known anchorman's) this congressman declared, in what was a loud and obviously frenzied almost public SEIZURE of anger, that YES, if this terrible organization that sells baby parts is not defunded, he would want to see the government closed down! Everyone was astonished! The truth is, Truth is not what they are seeking. Pandering to the vicious haters who just flat out Want To Believe their own garbage talk for the sole purpose of actually stamping out an organization that is by, for and about serving the needs of women and DOES NOT, DOES NOT, DOES NOT sell baby parts, is their entire goal. You can't tell these people the truth on any subject; they are the same ones who blow spit out of their snarling mouths while shouting that Barack Obama is not a citizen of these United States and was never born in Hawaii, but insist his birth was a conspiracy cooked up by people wanting to drag our country down clear back when he WAS born and it was planned that he would grow up to become president. I just cannot wrap my mind around the degree of LACK OF LOGIC here! Color me stunned!
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(http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-serious-sport-has-nothing-to-do-with-fair-play-it-is-bound-up-with-hatred-jealousy-boastfulness-george-orwell-257213.jpg)
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Interesting. Sums up my own perspective of this aspect of humanity perfectly.
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The haters are terrifying this year. It seems tohave grown over the past 12 years or so.. You have Cheney and then Palin and now a variety of Hate...hate ...hate.. I know a lot of it is that there are a whole subset of humans who are convinced that letting same sex marry is close to the end of the world. It is so very sad.. Noone gets to pick who they love..It is just that simple
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Planned Parenthood is a NON-PROFIT organization dedicated to the Health of Women. Women seek out Planned Parenthood, it does not seek out women. It is the largest provider of womens reproductive services in this nation, and if they succeed in closing down its 800+ clinics, they will only have a few others to find fault with and get closed down. Then there will be nowhere for women to go, and we will be back where we were before 1921, less than 100 years ago, when only RICH women could afford birth control and someone to prescribe it for them. That was the whole point, originally; as there were women who had the means and felt greatly liberated by being able to AFFORD the devices to keep them from having to undergo a pregnancy every year of their fertile lives, if, indeed, they got through those years alive. So it was, for the most part, an organization of well bred, well to do society women with time to dedicate to worthy causes who volunteered time so that women who could not afford this relief from child bearing could reap the benefits of giving their bodies some well deserved vacation time. Planned Parenthood has always been rife with a sense of doing good deeds for the community and especially for ALL the women of the community.
Planned Parenthood has some paid employees, but an awful lot of unpaid volunteers, as well. In fact, there is a long history of volunteerism. They are the nicest women you will ever meet, and their attitude when ANY woman goes there is "What do you need?" If it is just a shoulder to cry on and some advice, that is readily available.
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well said MaryPage. But the haters seem to just see target....boom. Our country needs to clean up its act. I am losing hope for any sort of turnaround.
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Well, the haters and the finger pointers and those who avidly eat up and take up any conspiracy theory they hear repeated, even if the one relating the story is making the whole thing up right on the spot; these are the ones being heard and having their lies repeated over and over and over again. The other side of the coin is the millions just going about their daily business and hoping all the hoo rah will soon blow over and the nation will come to its senses. What we have to actually DO, I think, in order to counter this poisonous insanity is to STOP for a moment. Stop toiling away in the vineyards of the Lord, as it were, and speak Truth to Evil. It is such a cruel and unthinkable thing to find that women who have been giving of their time and talents for generations in an effort to make the world, or at least their little place in it, a better and happier place for those in turmoil and difficulty, are suddenly being attacked in the fashion of Salem, Massachusetts back in the 17th century. They are portrayed as witches and all their kindnesses as plots inspired by Satan. Who was it who declared that "no good deed goes unpunished?" I sometimes wonder if the deadly actions of those who hate dogooders so much are a manifestation of their GUILT because they are not stirring their own selves in the service of their fellow men, women and children. So they shoot doctors and nurses to death, and yell that they are in the right because they are doing God's Work! Never have I witnessed such turning inside out and upside down of what is expected of us as we travel through our lives supposedly doing Acts of Love!
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From a post on The Library discussion.........
I think Eleanor Roosevelt is the woman who should be on the $10 or $20 bill. She spent more years than almost any other PERSON in free service to the US and stood for all the values of our country, and for human rights around the world.
Rosa Rios, the treasurer of the US, came to the Alice Paul Institute to explain why the Treasury Dept is looking to put a woman on the $10 bill. They are working their way through the task of making currency more diffucult to fake and the ten dollar bill is the next in line to change, so it will be easy to change the design at the same time. She wouldn't tell which woman they have decided on, but she said she thought we would be pleased. I wasn't in that meeting but my dgt and a good friend were. Also at the same meeting was the WOMAN who is the executive in charge of IT at the White House. I am pleased that there is beginning to be an "old girls club" at that level of our country.
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Margaret Sanger was my top favorite, but Eleanor Roosevelt my second; so I will be happy with her being on our ten dollar bill.
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Oh, I do thank Margaret Sanger for her good work every year on her birthday. Because of her my DH and I were able to restrict our number of children to two, replacements of us. Nobody talks about zero population growth these days. It's been forgotten. But I feel like we've done our little bit with MS's work and Katherine McCormick's money to give us the birth control pill. I would probably have slit my wrists if I had gotten pregnant 4 or more times. ;)
Jean
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Have been working of my genealogy and finding the women in the late 1700/1800s with 12 or more children. Many of them died when having the last child. Then apparently from the mid-1800s on the number dropped to 6 or 7. Moved to town from the farms and didn't need that many children to help with the work?? My family (both sides) came here in the mid 1700s. Farmers/millers. Many of the children began to move westward through mid-west and on out to West coast. By the time they reached the west the number of children had dropped to 5 or less.
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When I was active in genealogy, the church records were so sad..The number of children who died at birth or around the first six months was astounding.. Had to be hard.. My grandmother lost five children to either stillbirth or early death. Later the reason was discovered in that my grandfathr who was considered delicate was really diabetic..
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My paternal grandfather, the 5th of 11 children, was born in 1864. His mother died at age 40 when her baby girl (who I was named for) was only 18 months old. I have been extremely fortunate in that I have never had to "do" genealogy, but had it handed down to me intact, and I have even seen her scrapbook, which was full of newspaper clippings and other mementos. Susan Gibbon Thornton Mason buried 3 of her 11 children. Maggie, Susie and Pinckney. They were 5 years old, 21 months old, and 5 months old. They are under a little triangular tower-like stone (not a tall tower, but that is the only way I know to describe it) in the old family graveyard that was on the family plantation called Forest Hill in Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Yes, my great grandmother would have sat by oil lamp or candle at her desk or the dining room table, after the children were down for the night and cut out and pasted in these many items. Lots were poetry of the day, sad poetry, poetry of little lifeless white hands and such. Obituary poetry that was popular in the local town newspapers in those times of so much early death.
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Back in the days when I was possessed of blooming good health and tons of energy, I used to travel down to Fredericksburg at least once a year. Under Virginia law such graveyards must be preserved forever (yeah, forever! as if!), and so it is now fenced in and sits along a short country lane off a major road. I know it well. All around and about, up and down that major road, are subdivisions, one of which is called Forest Hill in memory of the plantation that once was there. My son Chip shares my sense of the place, and nowadays he and a second cousin of mine from Baltimore go down, usually in these autumn months, and clip and clean up inside the fence. In fact, Chip managed to get the worst case of poison ivy of his entire life (he is 51 now) a couple of years ago from doing that very thing!
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I had a lot of direct line genealogy done, but I wanted information on all of the wives and so did a lot of that sort of work as well as becoming the go to person for Clute.. It was fun, but now with the internet and all of the misinformation,not so much.
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Great article about our perceptions of Hillary!
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-arent-we-inspired-by-hillary-clinton?mbid=nl_092415_Daily&CNDID=38959653&spMailingID=8097827&spUserID=MTExMDk0NjYzMDk3S0&spJobID=762621330&spReportId=NzYyNjIxMzMwS0
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I like Hilary, not as much as Elizabeth Warren but still.. but I worry about Bill, he cannot stand being out of the spotlight and that is a definite problem for her.
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Elizabeth Warren is a great favorite of mine, as well and all. I have been a fan since back years ago when Bill Moyers used to have her as a guest on his PBS show. I credit him with letting me know about her. I think she was just a Harvard professor in those years. I want the Democrats to control the Senate again and make her Chairman of the Finance Committee. Woo hoo! Or Hilary can put her in charge of the nation's finances.
I do favor Hilary for president, but I love Bernie Sanders and adore Joe Footinhismouth Biden. I just cannot bear the amount of insanity in this country that has made such a huge and obvious debut on the world stage by even suggesting Donald Trump for the role of number one world leader. I blush. We have, indeed, shown the entire planet that our wacky element is enormous and, I am much afraid, that we are not to be taken seriously. Makes me want to go hide in the closet. Chip and I have had very serious conversations about what in the world we could do and where in the world we might go if he is actually elected. Back in the day, Canada would take us in a minute, but now they will not. It would appear we may be stuck in the crazy house!
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I love Joe, but oh my, he simply cannot stop...if it is in his brain, out it comes and that is not good. And this is from a girl who grew up in Delaware and has always admited him. Bernie.. a typical Vermonter,,
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O.k, o.k., o.k., I am poped out!!! He has said many good things, but his speech this morning was much about evangelizing........turned me off.
However, the biggest angst I am having at the moment is how many millions of our tax dollars are being spent on his visit!?! He just left the seminary where he stayed overnight. He was ferried to his next destination in the President's helicopter!?! Not only did he fly in the US govt helicopter, but there was, of course, a Marine Corps crew piloting it. AND accompanying that helicopter were two others, both US GOVT equipment, flying the American flag. I get the need for security and I was a bit miffed at all the money Phila is spending, but I assume they are recouping much of that from the 100s of thousand of visitors/shoppers that they have. But, the Vatican can't pay for their own helicopters??? My tax money is being used!?! So much for separation of church and state!
Jean
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I see your point entirely, Jean, but I believe the protocol here is that Speaker Boehner, 3rd in line to the throne, as it were, and apparently able to put out such invitations entirely on his own initiative, according to all accounts I have been reading lately, INVITED this pope, as Head of State (the Vatican State) to make this visit. INVITED. And assured The Vatican of complete security guaranteed by THIS country.
So We The People had no choice, upon the Pope accepting our gracious invitation, but to provide the security necessary. Over and out to the security experts, and if they deemed it in our national interest to supply Marine helicopters for his transportation, they rule.
Personally, I think it money well spent, especially considering a number of factors that came out really big: His Holiness takes the word of the scientists and fears global warming, Republican Catholics are now split on that subject and 3 fervent Catholics on the Supreme Court boycotted their Head of Church's appearance before the Congress, and it was, like it or not, the Leader of the Republican Party who set this whole thing in motion with his invitation! What a puzzlement! Personally, I think most Catholics will stick with the Pope and, in the long run, will vote Democratic. Win lose, win lose, win lose, WIN!
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I also think there are so many that see the Pope as the head of a church - yes, he is that but he is also the head of a nation state - at one time the church was the Holy Roman Empire and over time significantly lost the territory it ministered over, much as USSR significantly lost territory when it was dissolved.
if you noticed the Pope was introduced in congress as head of the Holy See - The term "Holy See" is from the Latin Sancta Sedes, meaning “holy chair.” Holy See is the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church. - Much like San Marino is a nation state or Luxembourg. If you compare the system used (the Curia) to govern it is a duplicate of the system used in Rome by the Caesars - yes, there is much politics that goes on so that this church is both a religious denomination and a political force as much as in Iran there is Ruhollah Khomeini both religious and political head of state.
Had Ruhollah Khomeini been invited to the US similar preparations for his safety and ability to visit members of his flock would have been arranged.
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Thanks for that info Barb and MaryPage. I am not Catholic but have found the news coverage on the Pope's visit interesting. I enjoyed his speech to Congress and found his gesture to give it in English thoughtful, especially as he has said how difficult English is for him. I was able to follow him fairly easily.
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One thing I find fascinating is that Francis is a Jesuit. That is, he belongs to an all male group within the church known as The Society of Jesus. This is newer than many of the other orders within the church, having been founded only in the 16th century. I think of it as the brains of the church, and as such it has many times been on a collision course with various popes. Some tried to stamp it out, unsuccessfully thank goodness. Faith is supposed to trump intellect, you see. I see it as nearly 500 years of struggle between those who believe we are not MEANT to know, but only to believe, and those who believe the way to achieve a complete understanding of God and Creation is to continue to learn all of our lives. I have always been partial to the Jesuit view of things.
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I have a good friend who was eduucated by the Jesuits..He is funny as he says, that some things never leave you and I know that his wife and I laugh occassionally, since he still feels that most people overdo... on everything. He is also a wonderful person to talk to since he is interested in everything in the world and curious about all cultures. I love to see them, since our converrsations keep me going for months.
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The Jesuits practiced "Liberation Theology" in Latin and South America, and the Church came down on them for it because they showed some of the Big Wigs in the church as part of the movement to suppress the people and keep them in poverty. This has been in our own time, as has the Jesuit wish NOT to cover up the rape of altar boys. A bunch of Jesuits were murdered by the Army that was running El Salvador back in 1989.
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;) The 'Big Wigs' are the conservative members of the Curia who are mostly Italian and as a body the Curia was not behind Vatican II - They wrote a doctrine they simply expected all the attending Bishops and Cardinals to blanket sign and when the conclave decided to use the opportunity to really look at the church they body went to town toppling the plan made by the Curia - however, many of those changes never saw the light of day or if they did, for a brief month or two because the power politics played by the Curia over shadowed and they were able to convince Pope after Pope ever since, the 'wisdom' of their ways.
This Pope Francis is the fist one to open the fault line and get the people behind him since John the XXIII who opened Vatican II - much of what we are finally hearing, including the issue of Birth Control was changed during Vatican II but was quickly buried by Pope Paul VI who was persuaded by the Curia to not only bury many changes but one of the agenda's from Vatican II was to reform and set up a monitoring system for the Curia and ultimately the Vatican Bank - yep, did not happen - the politics from the Curia was played well.
One way that Pope Francis is doing this is by going off script - he made at least 2 and maybe more unscheduled stops. One being after it was nixed Pope Francis went ahead and met with the sex abuse survivors. This man appears simple and loving but he is also smart as a tack and knows how to play the political game using his quiet power.
Right off the bat you knew something was going on when he chose to NOT live in the papal apartment - the papal apartment is not only bugged but Pope Benedict could not send out any messages or mail, including notes to his family without them being reviewed by the Cardinal Secretary of State or one of five others from the Curia.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/index.htm
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I think the reason Pope Francis thinks he will not live much longer is that he thinks the Curia will manage to kill him. I will always be convinced they killed John XXIII.
No one likes change just a whole lot. We all appreciate SOME change, such as becoming a parent, stuff like that. But change can be heartbreaking, as well.
Unfortunately, those who are mortally afraid that change will undermine their own positions of power will kill ruthlessly in order to attempt to preserve the status quo. Too awful, but absolutely the case.
The Republican Party, for instance, has changed 180° since I was a dedicated worker in the GOP. Today there is a clique there that feels they have guided the party to where their fondest dreams have wanted it to be, and now they will do anything, anything at all, to insure it does not return to Peace, Progress & Prosperity (Ike's rallying cry), not to mention moderation, compromise and good sense.
Actually, the Church has also changed mightily over the centuries, but the Curia is in total denial of the facts. Was it The New Yorker that had an article recently by a reporter who visited the Vatican? I was so nauseated by the description of a visit to a Prince of The Church (an ArchBishop, I believe) who lives in a magnificent apartment there and has TWO (2) life size portraits of himself in the foyer, a long hall full of photos of himself with all sorts of world famous people, and then another TWO (2) life size paintings in all his regalia in his parlor, where he greeted the reporter. Shameless, is what! Utterly shameless! He is full of self love, and definitely not love of God!
But these types huddle together and plot against desperately needed changes. This pope sees himself as a possible martyr to the cause of making this Faith more inclusive and more reflective of the preachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
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I believe this is the most intelligent, "20th century" pope (yes, I mean 20th) we have had since John 23rd, but he still leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion. I liked a lot of what he said - golden rule, concern for sex abuse survivors, stamping out sex abuse, concern for refugees, being kind, ending capital punishment - all that good Christian philosophy.
His persona radiated over Philadelphia and the region. We have not heard of any problems among the almost 1million people who visited, even though they stood in line for 3 or 4 hours and even then some did not get into the mass and other events. Apparently friendliness and kindness prevailed.
I understand that he is the head of state of the Vatican, but much of what he did and said was as the head of the Catholic Church, decidedly religious. My concern was for taxpayer money being spent in support of the evangelism/proselytizing of a religion. Many of the events should have been paid for by the Church, not by the multireligious tax payers of the United States and being given the use of three govt helicopters is, in my opinion, way outside the bonds of separation of church and state. There was enormous support for religious events by government units at all three levels. Based on Supreme Court decisions, that was unconstitutional. I am absolutely in favor of freedom of, and from, religion, but not for government support of any religion, the religions must support themselves.
Imagine if the King of Saudia Arabia was making a "state visit" and spent three days involved in Muslim religious events and was given the governmental support that was given to the pope's visit! Oh, the outcry! And rightfully so. This is a constitutional issue for me, not an antireligious issue.
Yes, the Jesuits are the most appealing of all the religious segments of the Catholic Church, primarily for what Steph said about her friend being interested and intelligent about everything. :)
Jean
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I think it is difficult to separate those countries that are religious centered - and I think the example of the Saudi Prince is a bit off the mark - he is not considered the head of the Muslims in Saudi Arabia but only rules by the precepts of the version of the Koran that speaks to Wahhabism. It is another who is The Mufti Of Saudi Arabia where as, Ayatollah Khomeini is the supreme leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran and if he came yes, he would be given similar perks.
However, the only reason we as a nation would be in an uproar is like comparing apples to oranges - those who slammed into the towers on 9/11 were Islamics and the last nearly 20 years of war took place in the middle east where our soldiers were killed or severely wounded - we have not been at war near or at war to support the Vatican leadership or territory - I think we could say that had the Emperor of Japan visited the US after WWII there would be a similar uprising here as if the Ayatollah was a state visitor.
I'm also thinking the money was well spent to have so many even for a bit of time look at their life in terms of being kind and helping as well as, being directed to understand others far more than the billions sent to Iraq an Afghanistan that ended up in a Swiss Bank. Yes, I think we got a lot more bang for our bucks that is a support to who we are as a nation.
I just think it is difficult for us to wrap our heads around a nation that is all about a state religion and is not a democratic nation - but then we host those nations who gave us the concept of a rule of law and when they make a state visit they are ferried by plane to Canada, Calgary and many other locations outside of Washington.
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My heart is totally with you in principle, Jean. It is just that my practical side feels much relief that we were able to muster enough ways and means to keep a would be killer from getting to and doing away with this Head of State and World Religious Leader ON OUR PATCH. We showed him impeccable hospitality and courtesy AND sent him safely intact back to his own patch. Good on us!
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I think the current pope is kind and caring and very very smart indeed. The Curia is so very powerful, but he seems to be making a wide loop around them. But in the end, he is carrying on the old old song of no women in importance at all and all of the old rules that were not there in the beginning of christianity, but were instituted by the Catholicsl.
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I totally agree, Steph. But he HAS set up that committee of eight to circumvent and, one hopes, clean out the Curia and the Vatican Bank eventually. He has the power to make the Princes of the Church now. I think he probably can do little about women until he has some priests in there of like minded thinking. He DID manage to call off the dogs on the American nuns, dropping the investigation over two years before it was to have been completed. I have hope, I have hope. Not a whole lot, because I am one of those "don't sweet talk, but SHOW me" gals, but I do have a scintillation of hope. If he lives. There is the Big If.
Last week the third High School football player died this year. Five died last year. We did not truly know the annual numbers before: no one was keeping track and it never got toted up. Each heartbreak belonged just to the local community. Now they are keeping a close eye on it. And yes, each died directly as a result of playing that game.
The October 5th issue of TIME magazine (I gave up on Newsweek, which I much preferred, when they stopped printing. I tried electronic, and just did not like it.) has a picture of this Pope on the front. Inside they are saying that 96% of former NFL players test positive for brain disease. NINETY-SIX PERCENT! In my view, we might as well go back to building those weird buildings with many steps and have quick blood sacrifices at the top every year. Same thing in the long run, when you think on it. Except I would rather be dead in my prime were it quick than have my head messed up for decades to follow. Football is, in the long run, a sacrifice of the players for the visceral excitement of the crowds. As long as folk don't have to SEE or live with the damage.
In the same issue, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar writes a very sensible article about the growing belief among college students that exposure to anything that challenges their comfort zone of beliefs actually infringes on their rights! So don't ask THEM to read a classic book that has something in it that upsets them! Kareem calls this a War On Reason, and basically says if they don't want to read the books and develop the skills, they should not attempt to take the classes! He also suggests we all keep up with FactCheck. Me, I have it on my FAVORITES list and look every day.
Finally, the same issue of Time has an article about the guy who has made the dreadful videos (he, himself, admits there are more than one) that attempt to bring down Planned Parenthood. He went at it over a period of years. Time says: "The recordings don't prove Daleiden's claim that Planned Parenthood profits from the sale of fetal body parts." It speaks about the antiabortion group called Live Action and says: "Live Action's recordings were often bogus." It also says: "Planned Parenthood executives repeatedly say in the videos that they don't profit from selling fetal organs." Finally TIME says: "Daleiden captured no such footage from the organization's clinics."
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I have been following with close attention the congressional hearing today where Cecile Richards, President of Planned Parenthood, is testifying. She was not subpoenaed, she is there entirely voluntarily.
One thing stands out as a glaring omission to me, and that is this: opponents of PP keep referring, as indeed do the media, to government FUNDING of PP, as though it were a donation and PP is on the handout list.
This is far from the truth! Our Federal Government GIVES no money, not one single penny, to PP. PP offers many medical services to low income women. Women who work minimum wage jobs to support themselves and their families, and have no health insurance. They cannot go to the ER for birth control, excessive bleeding, lumps in breasts and/or abdomens, suspected venereal diseases, and so forth. They MUST go to a clinic, and they go to the nearest one. When this one is PP, all services given these women who COME UNDER MEDICAID and/or TITLE X are detailed as to expense and then submitted to the Federal Government for REIMBURSEMENT. So we are talking perfectly normal funds under the Medicaid and/or Title X programs. Obviously, when the clinic in question is NOT a PP clinic, exactly the same routine is followed.
So saying that the Federal Government is FUNDING PP is an outright lie! A huge, humongous, gross contortion of the truth!
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Amen! Marypage! I have come to the conclusion that honesty is a lost art. I feel like I'm living in a society of mini-Hitlers whose philosophy is "tell a big lie, tell it often, and soon it is perceived as truth." AND. I feel like there are many people willing to receive those lies as truth. It concerns me greatly. The right-wing NAZIS started out as a fringe group also and slowly gained power and control. I've read and heard many discussions of "how could the Germans have let that happen?" We need to be diligent and remind people to use agencies like Factcheck.
Jean
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(http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/honesty-is-a-very-expensive-gift-dont-expect-it-from-cheap-people.png)
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The scariest scenario explanation of how the Nazis got the peoples of Germany and other European nations to actually FAVOR exterminating the Jews and the "feebleminded," many of whom were brilliant autistics, is detailed in a book I am reading very slowly and taking in in dismay. The book is NeuroTribes by Steve Silberman, and I recommend it highly. Awful, awful truths I never knew about our very own American medical community, as well. Hard to take, but me, I want to know the truth!
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The latest news report says that the terrible women clerk from Kentucky met with the pope in Washington.. How could he. That is interfering with our political system and I honestly thought he was better than that.. I am so disappointed.
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Makes me ill. As you say, disappointing.
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As I said, he is better than most, but leaves a lot to be desired.
Jean
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I doubt he scolded her since he does not appear to use scolding as his tool - her photo shows a calmer face - but we really do not know what he said - there will be interpretations not only by Kim but if it is hitting the news you know darn well those with a vested interest in her and her position will have adjusted what she says -
Yes, I can see him saying to stay strong but I can also see his saying say strong in your heart and do the loving thing - he would not have had time or the inclination to go through how he has come to the position of supporting gay marriages but I can see from the tone of all his speeches whatever he said would attempt to help her or at least question her going beyond the notoriety and speak from her mind and heart.
I can see though, those she is the spokesmen for would use the meeting as a coup for their interpretations.
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Well, this leaves a lot more to be desired than I had hoped for. I HAD, up until this news bit, been where I felt these enormous heavings and implosions going on under all the pomp & circumstance of the papacy, with Francis being pretty much coming from the same place as John 23, but putting in clever Jesuit safeguards against the Curia killing him (not living in the palace, creating that committee of 8 to help him reign, etc.), and all was going well except for the continued discrimination against women; and even THAT area gave me a tiny hope, as Francis did manage to lift and do away with the investigation and overseeing of the American Nuns, two years before that was due to happen.
But I have long been leery of the seeming power of a cartel of ultra, ultra conservative men made up of both Roman Catholics and extreme fundamentalists for the purpose of promoting their mutual political goals. And for years there has been a scream rising inside of me wanting to yell at the Catholics: "Don't you KNOW those fundamentalists despise you and wish you harm? You should not be getting in bed with them!" But it has been an ongoing thing, and religious beliefs have been trumped by those political goals, which is maddening because the Princes of the Church who pride themselves in being ever so Machiavellian in these matters and think they can outsmart the fundamentalists in the long run, should push come to shove, are truly dirtying up their linens, not to mention the reputation of the Church they profess to love.
In the matter of Francis meeting with that woman, I see that very cartel controlling him to the extent, at least, of getting this on his schedule. And she is, in my view, pure trash and filth and should NEVER have been granted an audience. Well, 'tis done, and I hope the Jesuits give him an earful. He needs to know who the fiercest enemies of the Church are!
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Yes, YES, Yes - my only hope is that he can out-Machiavelli the Machiavellians - we shall see what we shall see - so far he has made a dent and with any dent there is more of a hue and cry than if the earth opened and swallowed the evil. However, like it or not and I do not - there are still women and nuns that their comfort level is 1951 much less even 2001 and wild rushing to cross the Red Sea before 2015 catches up with them
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I saw a film clip on TV tonight where apparently the Press Corps accompanying Pope Francis on the plane back to Rome were asking him what he thought of the Kim Davis matter (had they heard rumors of the meeting? Who knows?), and he responded that each of us is entitled to be a conscientious objector where our Faith is concerned.
I conclude that either he knows the FULL STORY and shares the ultra fundamentalist point of view, OR he did not have it properly explained to him.
But how, in all honesty, can we explain the FACT that this meeting was held in such a clandestine manner? It did not appear on the pope's schedule as published and handed out, and it was not only conducted in secrecy, but was not announced until His Holiness had been safely back in The Vatican for a couple of days. I believe this pope to be extremely smart, so based on that, I am forced, with huge sorrow, to believe he is a willing part of that ghastly occurrence.
I hope someone will explain to him that we Americans are all for conscientious objectors, but we also believe that when they have taken an OATH to uphold the laws of a state in performing the duties of their job, they must resign if their Faith gets in the way of them keeping that oath.
The various newscasters on MSNBC and their panels were deeply upset by this bit of news this evening.
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Ya know I wonder if the meeting happened at all - I would love it if someone would check when he said something against the timing when Kim's people announced the meeting - I do not think he would make a fool out of her if the meeting did not happen -
The whole thing is confusing but then we may be looking at it from our eyes and we may not see what he sees - because frankly I thought it was a very poor choice of a candidate for Sainthood and that there was only one Saint announced without a balancing Saint was painful. It reminded me too much of not only white man's hegemony but the spread of the Roman Catholic Church regardless who or what groups were destroyed -
The history of the church is filled with folks made saints that I think acted brutally all in the name of growing the enrollment.
Maybe that is it - we would like the religious to be as perfect as we can imagine, more so than the rulers of a nation and this being both a nation state and a religion makes it more confusing with more expectations - if a religion spouts love and kindness we want to see what we believe is a loving and kind nature in all of the leaders of the religion - it seems regardless the religion there is a dark side and weak spot in all of them.
Here is a link to the BBC video of what Kim says, but in the plane the Pope does not name Kim - only a statement of being denied the right to protest - I am not convinced there was a meeting - there does not seem to be any gifts of a rosary to any other the Pope met with and meetings seem to be in groups - see what you think when you look at her face and eyes.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34385057
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Supposedly shehas been promised pictures.. to prove the meeting. The saint made no sense, but actually the whole concept of saints bother me.. A good many that I read about seem a lot more like fable than truth.
I am sorry, the only thing I see in her eyes is glee that she is now famous.
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On the Lawrence O'Donnell show last night, E J Dionne said the very conservative Bishop in charge of the residence where Pope stayed (I'm not familiar with the Catholic names) arranged the meeting against the wishes of the American Bishops. EJ stated that the Pope doesn't read the American newspapers so possibly only knows what the Bishop has told him. He said the Vatican needs to make a statement concerning this as the far right is making a big deal about the meeting.
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I was asked earlier (sorry it took so long to answer here) if I agreed with someone breaking the law (not the exact wording, but the gist? If not, please correct me.) :)
The quick answer is "Yes, I would advocate civil disobedience". Please let me explain? Every law has an either - or; either obey or suffer the consequences. Christians facing certain death in the Colosseum chose to obey the 'OR' part of the law; as have people like Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, Christians in Europe who hid Jews in WWII, Martin Luther King, even Nelson Mandela. All through history people have chosen the 'or' in order to keep from violating their conscience in obeying an immoral law.
I think what I saw in her eyes was relief.
This lowly clerk - following the procedures outlined in federal law and the laws of her state for registering as a c.o. in this instance - has undergone horrific verbal abuse, not to mention threats on herself and family - and jail time. Such vile behavior...such hatred.
And it all was so unnecessary, wasn't it? There were 20 states who had passed bans on same-sex marriage. The Supreme Court could have given them time to re-write the law to conform with their mandates and provide direct relief for c.o.'s - but they made compliance immediate. Unwisely, I think.
The governor refused to call back legislators to write a law to bring them into compliance, or to begin impeachment proceedings against the clerk. He also failed to issue a recall vote. In either case, since 75% of the people of the state agreed with the ban on same-sex marriage, it would not likely have turned out as he wished. So he did nothing.
As far as her having taken an oath - well, she was up-holding the law and how could she have foreseen this? And shouldn't that thinkng be evenly applied? As stated before, many individuals have violated their oath to up-hold laws they didn't agree with, including providing 'safe cities' and taking states to court for actually enforcing federal law; this includes officials high up in the administration. I would like to see the same level of outrage against those violators?
Don't we want to see more women standing for what they believe in? Even if we don't agree with what they believe in?
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Bottom line, she can be against same sex marriage for all eternity for all I care, she just cannot keep a job wherein she is the HEAD OF the department that issues marriage licenses and then break her oath to the state and refuse to do so.
Her only alternative is to resign.
I cannot understand why the system is allowing her to continue to refuse.
She SHOULD resign.
She is not fulfilling the requirements of her position. She is not performing the duties the taxpayers are paying her for. She has no right to pick and choose what she will and will not do in this instance. Let one of these people who are praising her to the skies HIRE her.
I heard last night that she is "writing a book." Actually has signed a contract for one, which the publisher is going to have a ghost writer do for her. Money, money, money! She is famous, and now she is going to be RICH!
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I keep in mind that all she asked was to have her name removed from the form - a form which has already been altered. Anyway, all the angst against her is well noted. I expect there to be the same for those I mentioned earlier?
Maybe the image on the ten dollar bill should be Lady Justice - to remind us every day of the even-handedness, impartial aspect of the law. :)
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I don't think that is QUITE all she did. I myself, and millions of others, saw her on television day after day telling people NO marriage licenses would be issued on that day in that county. No two sex, no single sex. No marriages, period. I don't think she was being a willing participant in a reality show, albeit she is most definitely a drama queen.
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Oh, no...lest I'm misunderstood. In filing for c.o. She was asking that her name be taken off the forms. The problem is that legislators don't return until Jan. If she had issued licenses, she would not be able to get c.o. status. It was really all so unnecessary!
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y'all may want to read these two links
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-totally-real-transcript-of-kim-davis-meeting-with-pope-francis_560c2fcce4b0dd85030a555d
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/massimo-faggioli/kim-davis-pope-francis_b_8227932.html?1443717577
and then this
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/30/pope-francis-meeting-kim-davis-religious-freedom
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I'm one of those who has no sympathy with Kim Davis and no respect for her. She certainly has a right to her beliefs, but she has a job to do as an elected official. Part of that job is to issue a marriage license to couples who have met the requirements for that license. That doesn't mean she has to approve of the marriage itself; she is not expected or entitled to pass judgment on the couple. If she is going to accept payment for her position, and if she is truly the ethical person she claims to be, then she needs to do her job. Otherwise she needs to resign. What I see instead is a woman who is glorying in the attention she is getting.
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What are you using for the co status. if You are talking of Conscientous Objector, I do know something about that being a quaker. I guarantee she does not fall in that category. That form of C.O. does not ever talk in public on tv and newspapers.. it is a very very private and complicated part of life.. I remember Viet Nam too vividly. Rosa parks did not break the law,, just a custom, at least I had always thought that. Martin L.King did break some laws, no question and got really famous for it.. I honestly do not care what she believes.She can believe anything she wants, but the law is to be obeyed.She ran for office and at some point swore to uphold the law. All of the examples did not...repeat....did not do that.
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Well, exactly!
If Davis had simply resigned her job because her work had come into conflict with her religious faith, and disappeared from the scene, I, for one, would have believed in her sincerity, if not her dogma.
As it is, with all this drama reeking of martyrdom and publicity events, my stomach curdles over the LACK of sincerity in any of the characters who have jumped into this media event.
In the long run, Love & Peace will conquer all and happily married couples will rejoice in the sunshine of Acceptance, while the reciters of litanies of hate will find the limelight of Fame denied them.
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Wasn't segregation the law in the south of Rosa Parks? And, remember - President Obama and Eric Holder did take oaths. And violated them.
Quaker rules may be different than just C.O. in general - as outlined by federal and state law? These laws cover any violation of conscience; you don't have to have a religious objection?
I can see both sides here. But - honestly - I don't know what I would have done. Again, it would have been handled quietly if the governor had called the legislature back into session to adopt a law: they could have used North Carolina's law, as they anticipated the Supreme Court ruling and had legislation prepared. And there would have been no hoopla or fame. It seems like some people have an investment in making her an example, which is one reason why the judge put her in jail. But, there's no way she could hand out licenses until Jan. and then petition for C.O.
Saying "just step down" is easy, but not so easy to do, I think? She is obviously a long-time resident of this community, one she has - and still does - represent well, as 75% of the state agrees with her.
And she has worked in this office for 27 years with no problem. Twenty-seven years! Think of all she has invested in that job.
Orthodox Christianity (I am not familiar with her particular faith):
1. Kim Davis is not violating but rather upholding Romans 13:1, which says, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities." The sovereign secular authority in the United States is the Constitution, and in Kentucky it is the state constitution, which is why Davis swore obedience to both when she took her office as county clerk. It turns out that the Kentucky Constitution defines marriage as exclusively involving a man and a woman. It also turns out that the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution explicitly restricts the federal government from issuing decrees on matters like this.[1] Davis did not swear an oath to obey the U.S. Supreme Court, who, as pointed out by the four dissenting judges, committed an act of lawlessness in mandating homosexual marriage in the United States. Davis is right to refuse to obey their usurpation of authority, just as Abraham Lincoln was right to ignore the Dred Scott decision in 1857. For more details on Kim Davis' upholding of the Constitution, read Harry Reeder's excellent article, with which I wholly agree.
2. Kim Davis is fulfilling her God-given duty as the lesser magistrate. It is the calling of lower government officials to protect the people from the tyranny of the higher magistrate, here the federal government. This biblical principle was used to justify, among other things, the American Revolution against the British sovereign.
(There are two additional sections here which I will be happy to post if you'd like.)
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/
http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-popes-visit-davis-not-form-support-092505075.html#
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/world/europe/pope-francis-kim-davis-meeting.html?_r=0
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/vatican-denies-kim-davis-meeting-pope-francis-indicates-support-n437356
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I read a report that her attorney wiggled her in - she was received in a room of 100 - he breezed past with a 10 second blessing for each of the 100 and there was no way she could have had the conversation as reported - the meeting he had with the gay couple he knew the one man from South American and he brought his family to introduce to the Pope - he took the minute to shake hands with each and then onto the next room where he met with the 100.
Another article from the Guardian in Manchester talked about how the gay community and the those who support them all fell for the outrageous bit of skulduggery arranged by her attorney.
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What I have heard is she was slipped in by the ultra conservative archbishop here in Washington DC who runs the Nunciature, or Vatican embassy, and the Pope's entourage knew nothing about it in advance. Will we ever know?
I had a wonderful visit from a local priest this afternoon, and told him EXACTLY how I felt. When I was finished, he laughed heartily, gave me a big hug, and said he thinks much the same. I did not just carry on about this matter, as I had not seen him for, oh, probably at least a month; so I covered the whole visit to the States and, indeed, all impressions of this pope to date. Great fun for me, but apparently for Father, as well.
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Segragation differed from state to state.. so it depended on where you lived.. Many of the so called laws were really customs. wrong,yes,, but customs.
Conscientous Objectors.. I dont know now, but in Viet Name in order to be ruled as one, you went through hoops... No, it was not only religion, but a sincere PRIVATE matter that brought you before the draft board. You did not go on tv or in the paper and declare your faith.. Trust me on that one.
We will never agree and no I dont think the President or Eric broke any laws, but I know the very conservative right do. The U.S. constitution is the final word. The civil war was mainly fought to prove that one.
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That is right, Steph. Rosa Parks did not violate any state or national law, so far as I remember. It was a RULE of, as you say, tradition; and bus drivers saw that it was adhered to. People, white and black, would come from other areas of the country and, not knowing the local ways, whites would make the mistake of sitting in the back and blacks of sitting in or towards the front, and they would be corrected. As I remember, it took only a word from the bus company owners or managers to drop the rule. I am not trying to stand up for segregation here, but only to tell it the way I remember it. The same was true for the soda fountains and lunch counters, etc., where, in the South, if you were black you could only order from down at the end of the counter while standing up, and take out. Simply local custom. Once the manager said they would go ahead and serve blacks sitting down, it was done. These were old Southern ways, and, like a bunch of barnyard chickens whose territory was invaded by a chicken way down in the pecking order, white males got really agitated if anyone made a mistake regarding the various black & white protocols. They could be dreadfully nasty and demeaning, and I hated it. They really did not want to see things change, because, and this is the basic truth, they clung to the pleasurable sense of superiority they had, regardless of possibly being lacking in all other respects. This is also why you saw efforts to change things coming principally from the well educated and well heeled. The upper and middle classes did not need that special status, but instead came to feel strongly about the unfairness of the system.
We have the same thing, in a different form, but the same basic human instincts exhibiting themselves in all their ugliness with the systemic hatred of "the other." Gays, Women, Immigrants. "We have to be taught, before it's too late, to hate all the people our relatives hate. We have to be carefully taught."
And then there is the law. THE law. The very ancient law: "Love One Another!"
I remember reading about conscientious objectors in World War I going off to war as medics. They were perfectly willing to die in duty to their country of birth, but not willing to kill. I remember knowing some of these in World War II, where they were more accepted by their communities than was true in World War I. People were more understanding, and not so quick to call them cowards. I am now and always have been in sympathy, as there is no way under the heavens that I could kill another human being.
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I just had a vivid memory, something I had forgotten all these many years. But it proves a point, the point that Southerners had no real aversion of any sort whatsoever toward blacks, but it was all a matter of status:
IF you were a black woman tending a white child, and you had to take that child on a bus for whatever reason, you were entitled to sit in the front of the bus. No WAY that white child would have to sit in the back! Same thing if you were a black woman tending an old white woman or man. The white could only be up front, and the attendant was then entitled to stay with them so as to tend to their needs!
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during the Viet Nam era when there was still the draft, getting conscientous objection status was truly hard.. The draft boards were in charge up to a point. Yes, I knew many quakers who served as medics and in WWI, they were close to the only ones who would go on the battlefield to save the wounded.
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The C.O. laws I'm referring to are federal and states. An individual can opt out of many things. North Carolina wrote their laws on same-sex marriage with an 'opt-out' clause so that officials would not have to go through this as long as they opted out of performing services for both same-sex and heterosexual marriages (which is why she tried this first, I think; refusing both). A simple solution - and a win-win for everyone. :)
As you say, the Rosa Parks example may have been custom, I don't know; I thought these things were covered under Dred Scott? But the others were clearly practicing civil disobedience.
President Obama and Eric Holder violated their oaths by refusing to enforce certain laws: DOMA, immigration laws, etc. and even sued states for enforcing them. AND that was before the Supreme Court had ruled on either. Clearly, officials in 'safe cities' are also violating their oaths of office by refusing to enforce immigration law. Lois Lerner also comes to mind with her practice of asking illegal questions and changing requirements arbitrarily for conservative groups seeking non-profit status.
The law should be evenly applied.
[Conscientious Objection for the draft in Vietnam was a different case. Near the end of the draft - because they were having difficulty filling the quotas - they were finally refusing all c.o. statuses. My husband and I went through that wait to hear his number being called up, so I do know how that went. Agonizing to be sure!]
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way before the end in Viet Nam they were refusing c.o. status. I volunteered in the Philadelphia Quaker organization for three years and know how agonizing the whole thing was. I do not honestly know that C.O. would apply.. no more draft and C.O. was strictly about your conscience and war.. What laws are you referring to. I checked with my home meeting house and they were puzzled.
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Let me get out my materials, Steph. I'll put them up later? :)
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kim-davis-is-no-rosa-parks/2015/09/07/e821d528-533b-11e5-9812-92d5948a40f8_story.html
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http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/whats-with-christian-conservatives-and-the-dred-scott-decision-an-explainer/
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http://mic.com/articles/124937/some-republicans-are-claiming-kim-davis-is-like-rosa-parks
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http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/09/26/3706034/kim-davis-rosa-parks-mlk-lincoln/
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http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/32597-kim-davis-is-no-rosa-parks-how-the-right-distorts-black-history
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3334790/posts - this compares the three choices both women had
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Lots of work here - and appreciated! For me, though, the issue isn't Rosa Parks?
These are the laws in brief - I can post sites or you can google them:
Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 (and some similar state laws) also allow people to get some exemptions from work rules imposed by employers (including private employers)...
and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, signed into law by President Clinton after a 97-3 vote in the Senate. [The RFRA applies "to all Federal law, and the implementation of that law, whether statutory or otherwise", including any Federal statutory law adopted after the RFRA's date of signing "unless such law explicitly excludes such application]
States also enacted versions of the federal RFRA law, Kentucky included.
And - at least as I understand it - a 'religious' exemption can be cited by any individual, whether they are affiliated with a church group or not? It just has to be a 'strongly held personal belief'.
A question posted regarding Indiana’s RFRA law might help?
“Do Religious Freedom Protections Hurt Gays?
It is entirely consistent to favor broad religious freedom protections and also favor gay rights. Many gays are religious, and so themselves benefit from religious freedom protections like RFRA. But even where gay Americans and religious Americans find themselves in conflict, there is ample room in communities to peaceably coexist. That’s the point of a RFRA. No side gets an automatic-victory card. The interests of all sides gets weighed."
I appreciate the work in here. My whole life I've been hearing from men - and women - that women 'think with their emotions', that they 'can't be objective, especially if they feel strongly about something', they're too emotional to be impartial and logical as they 'let their feelings get in the way'. To me, it's important to re-visit old beliefs - even strongly held ones - and understanding/admitting one's biases is the first step to finding truth? :)
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This is by no means the only source, but I found it helpful in putting the issue in perspective by giving other examples of the laws being used for objectors:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/09/04/when-does-your-religion-legally-excuse-you-from-doing-part-of-your-job/
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Ah, I see where you are coming from.. Society of Friends does not get involved in religious disputes of this type. My strong feelings are about war and violence. I do believe however that if you work in public office, you must obey the rules. I know she is trying to fall back on Kentucky rules, but honestly from the beginning of our country, the Supreme Court has the last word , unless congress enacts a new law and even then the law must be measured against the constitution.. Lets face it, I believe that guns should be regulated and that counting corporations as people is wrong.. I also believe that the Supreme
Court should not have interfered in the Bush-Gore election, but they have the last word, not me.
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Well, exactly, Steph.
I, too, think it was one of the worst decisions EVER that gave corporations the reins to run this government by MONEY. Excruciating, the pain that clinches my veins when I think on that.
And did the Court select our president? You bet they did! I will go to my grave convinced that Gore not only won in Florida, but what about those five hundred THOUSAND votes in excess of Bush's nationwide? Scheesch!
I applauded Gore's doing the gentlemanly thing and making the running of our nation look good to the rest of the world by backing off gracefully and letting go of it. He has never, to this day, said a nasty word. How great must be HIS frustration.
No, life is not fair. Often, our country takes steps backward just when we rather desperately need, in the better interests of all, to become enlightened and move forward.
But the Court is the best hope we have. If only it were not chosen politically.
And when those of our citizens who are all consumed by their religious convictions will learn to separate church and state, perhaps even become enlightened as to what that actually MEANS, we can all sleep more peacefully and safely in our beds at night. Until then we will be constantly under attack to be dragged back into the darkest centuries of humankind, when our total ignorance put us in thrall to the mythmakers with vivid imaginations and colorfully vicious tongues. I guess hard times and harsh lives made it easy to gull folks into hating other folks. When I was a child, I thought upon and loved to read all of the beautiful passages of The Bible. Now, I shudder when it is mentioned and think instead on all of the hate mongering erupting constantly from our Bible Belt! Too sad.
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Well spoken, Steph. And people do disagree - without any hatred or malice. :) Disagreeing used to be ok; seems now everyone has to accuse each other - so sad.
Have a great day!
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i truly hate this business of acting like the other side of an arguement is a horrible human being. I agree that disagreeing used to be gentler, but so did a lot of life. I am too old. This is my second time to think that elements of our country have got off track. In Viet Nam, the lies from the military were terrifying.. Please oh please , let us settle down, get rid of the clown better known as Trump and then pick our candidates for good reasons,
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I agree with you, Steph, but I disagree that Viet Nam was our only other mistake. It WAS a mistake, and I became convinced of that in 1969, to this day remembering my moment of truth and horror. But for us, as a nation, to go into ANY other nation and invade that nation and topple its government and then just pat ourselves on our backs and shake off the dusts of war and cry a tear over the bodies of our own that we bury and cover over the ongoing obligations to our hoards of wounded and beam beatifically, saying that now those peoples can form a democracy, when, the peoples don't even have a clue about a democracy and are accustomed to being TOLD what to do and how to do it; it just doesn't WORK. It does not work.
History shows, and why we don't LEARN this is a humongous mystery to me, but History shows you cannot conquer another nation. Not truly. You can smash it into the ground, but eventually it will rise back up and be against you and hate you. If a nation, any nation, is to change, that change must come from within. Its own peoples must rise up against their tyrants and depose them and set up their new endeavor at government, whatever form it may take, until such time as they get it right. Then we can befriend the new nation and both countries can benefit. Israel is a perfect example of this. They warred and won on their own, and Harry S Truman was the first to recognize the new nation and the new flag. I remember it well, and how I sobbed for Joy. The problems they are having now are their own fault: they should have immediately worked out their differences with their own and the displaced Arabs. Of course, I am imagining perfection here, and they certainly did not own godlike qualities of prescience.
Fear and hatred of "the other" is the thing that makes my body shrivel in fear. We have hung and burned "witches," nearly eliminated Native Americans, enslaved numerous tribes of Africans, lynched and otherwise murdered thousands of them, imprisoned countless human beings based simply on their differentness, and now we have a man way up in the polls who does not believe a Muslim should be president. We have, what is it now? Eight MILLION plus Muslims? And yet a boy or girl born in this country and educated under our standards is to be barred from aspiring to be President if they worship the Very Same God we do (by a different name, but still they go back to and CLAIM our same Biblical history, not that this makes any difference) if they are Muslim? That frightens me. That threatens my sense of inclusiveness.
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I guess I was not thinking, beecause my answer if actually ever since WWII .. i.e. Korea, we keep interfering in other nations and should not. war is wrong.. no two ways about it.
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There was a marvelous documentary on PBS last night about Noah's Flood and where the story originated, which was in ancient Sumeria and Assyria and the city of Ur and other ancient cities there in Mesopotamia. When the peoples of Judah were brought to Babylonia in forced labor, a period of time that lasted approximately 50 years and which ever afterwards Jews have referred to as "The Exile," they started writing down, in the cuneiform they learned from the Babylonians, their experiences, which included a version of the exact same flood story. There were ancient rivers there, between the Tigris & Euphrates, which used to flood disastrously. Well, we know something about THAT now, don't we! And a flood like that would seem to encompass the entire known world, back then when those peoples had no clue of this planet.
After the Jews returned to Judah, later forming Israel, they put together their Holy Book: the Torah, which now comprises the first books of our Old Testament. There we find the flood story. Ancient Sumerian texts are almost identical.
And so we have the Jewish Old Testament and the Christian New Testament and the Koran, with the Muslims claiming, truthfully, descent from Abraham and kinship to Jews and Christians alike, referring to them as collectively with themselves "The People of The Book." Islam does not deny the life of Jesus; they admire and refer to him as a great prophet. And they do not claim Mohammad as God, but only God's prophet. Their name for God, Allah, is meant to identify precisely the one and same God others call Jehovah!
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Really makes you question to what extent would we each go to be really good at something that would benefit others.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12043174_1468054483503935_5838852934156387291_n.jpg?oh=5c76645d8bd0107b60baff92718b3375&oe=56D05900)
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Very inspiring, Barbara. What were the years involved?
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What an extraordinarily beautiful and lovely woman.
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Wonderful story. I hope they gave her some cudos before she passed away so she felt valued for what she did.
Well said MaryPage! USA is a great country in many respects, but we have had some really insane events in our history. I agree with everything you said. Yes, who in their right mind would believe there would be peace after Israel was "given" their territory at the expense of the Palestinians. I am a huge fan of the Jews having a safe place to go after WWII, but how could anyone have expected the Palestisns to just give up their territory and made to evacuate. I don't understand people of power who behave that way.......oh, i think I'm hearing Putin and Assad and maybe McCain in my head!!! Still behaving like 15 yr old boys.
Jean
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I believe England held the territory pre-WWII and had a plan to divide it for the Palestinians and Jews (whom no one would take in) to each have a nation. The Jews, predominately from Europe, had a wealth of knowledge regarding nation-building skills, which the Palestinians lacked, since they had mostly been under foreign control. But, both sides were using terrorist tactics against England, so they turned it over to the UN to decide. Sadly, not the UN's finest moment.
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I am reading a really interesting book, Profiles of Female Genius, written by Gene Landrum. He talks about "thirteen creative women who changed the world." Lillian Vernon, Ophra Winfrey, Golda Meir, Jane Fonda, Estee Lauder, Madonna, Ayn Rand, Gloria Steinam, Margaret Thatcher, Mary Kay Ash, Liz Claiborne, Maria Callas, Linda Wachner (first woman owner of a Fortune 500 company, Warnaco [Warner and Olga lingerie, Fruit of the Loom, Valintino, Hathaway shirts, etc]).
He choose women who created their own success and had not inherited their position; had staying power of at least 10 yrs of influence; their success or achievement had international influence; their achievement must have occurred in the last 40 yrs, (the book was published in 1994). I would like to see who he would choose in 2015!
They were mostly first born or their FATHER's FAVORITE; father often self-employed and a mentor; had FEMALE mentors; READ books early in childhood, creating imagination; goal-oriented workaholics; wanted to win; self-sufficient; charismatic, persuasive personality; intuitive "gut" decision-makers; high energy.
I find all of that very interesting. What a good model for a curriculum for teaching teenage girls, and boys. We need to tell fathers how important they are to their dgts. I remember when reading about the Presidents that many of them had strong Mothers who encouraged them. Landrum had previously written a book about male creative geniuses, where he says the mothers were dominant! Isn't that interesting? All the women idolized their fathers and some disliked their mothers!?!? (Callas, Fomda, Winfrey, Meir, Rand)
"Self-employed fathers and moving a lot in early childhood apears to have instilled confidence (self-sifficiency and autonomy) that prepared them to survive in the new and unknown environments they would face as adults. It gave them the confidence at a very early age, to know that they could survive as independent enities without depending on the corporate organization for economic survival."
Several went to all-girl's schools, interesting! That gave them female mentors who told them they could do anything, plus it gave them opportunities to be leaders. Having time to themselves to ruminate and imagine in combination with reading books was very important. "As children most were voracious readers and fantasized a great deal about larger-than-life heroines." ......" These women were often prima donnas in their families, a result of being first-born, only children or the center of the universe w/in their families."
There are a lot of other significant tidbits about making them creative geniuses. "The majority were intuitive thinkers with an innovative style of behavior, a PREFERENCE FOR BEING DIFFERENT with a right-brain macro-vision of the world of possibilities in life."
I haven't read their individual stories yet, but can't wait to get to them. In fact, I decided to buy the book, i'm reading a library book...........41 cents, plus postage on Amazon!!! What a find!
Jean
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Israel was NOT "given" their territory and YES, at the expense of the Palestinians.
The largest forced migration in modern history as about a million people were expelled from the homes at gunpoint, civilians were massacred and hundreds of Palestinian Villages deliberately destroyed after a group of eleven men, veteran Zionists together with young military Jewish officers, in 1948 put the final touches on the plan to ethnic cleanse Palestine.
Military orders were dispatched that led to laying siege and bombing villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods, and finally planting mines around the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning.
Each unit was given a section of the master plan that was the fate the Zionists had in store for Palestine and consequently for its native population. Set forth in the Hagana's Plan Daler was the conquest and destruction of even the rural areas - the aim was to destroy both the urban and rural areas of Palestine
More than 800,000 Palestinians were uprooted, 531 villages destroyed and 11 urban neighborhoods emptied of inhabitants. This systematic catastrophe continues to remain out of the public eye - this is what the 'right of return' is all about.
Read Ilan Pappe, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Another to read is, Alison Weir, Against Our Better Judgment
The problem we have is wanting the Jewish people to have a safe place to live not only after the Holocaust but as the call for a Jewish State was first considered as a goal by Theodor Herzl after the Dreyfus affair in France along with the public acknowledgment of the historical discrimination towards Jews in Europe since the time of the Romans. However, the Zionists used purging tactics only less than those of the Holocaust that is also a crime against humanity in the International Criminal Court.
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By "given", I meant that it was approved of, and supported by the US and the UN, as though it was their's to decide. That's why I put it in quotes. Not unlike the kings of England "giving" the colonial areas of NJ and Pa, etc, to Wm Penn, et al. as though no one was living there and it "belonged" to the king. Arrrgh, patriarchy and the invisibility of the powerless "other" that MaryPage mentioned.
Jean
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What you mean is the US was hoodwinked into support for Israel by Chief Justice Brandeis, who became a Zionist - and Clarke another supporter of Zionism. Read Against Our Better Judgment - and the folks creating the new Israel had UN approval for a state 'without borders' - fooled by Zionist propaganda.
We know a state without defined borders is actually completely nonsensical. Suppose there were no defined border between Canada and the USA. Israel was reluctant to define its borders according to the Israel Government website, the Provisional Government of Israel met in Tel Aviv from May 12 to May 14 to consider the draft declaration of independence. It was led by David Ben-Gurion as Prime Minister and Defense Minister.
Ben-Gurion re-writes in his home the draft that was considered by the National Council and was approved unanimously on the second vote: so we know that changes were made. The article does not say what they were, suggesting they were minor in nature. Based on the Partition Plan, the Declaration implicitly defines the borders to be those in the Plan, saying the declaration of a new state is a once-only event, whereas borders can be changed later, suggesting an absence of a border definition in the Declaration itself is not significant.
The words of the Declaration are intended to suggest that the creation of Israel was authorized by the United Nations. This is not correct. The UN does not have authority under its Charter to create or divide states. The Partition Plan was a recommendation only.
The Plan envisaged a process, starting at the end of the Mandate, which would lead to the establishment of two states in a series of parallel stages. Because the Plan as written was rejected by the Arab side, it could not be implemented.
Israel was created as a sovereign state by the decision of the Zionist leadership to preempt the process envisaged in the Plan, and to declare the State of Israel immediately on termination of the Mandate.
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I may be misreading you, but it appears you believe Zionism to be a negative philosophy, is that correct? If so, what is it, besides the evacuating of the Palestians and taking over their properties, that you don't approve of.
I ask because, even though I was young, I remember at the time, my parents - Methodists - being approving of Truman's supporting a homeland for the Jews and in my history studies I have gotten the impression that that move was a good one, altho not perfect. I agree there should have been provision made for everyone, but my understanding is that there was a recommendation made for the Palestians to share the country and they refused, which I can understand. I also realize that because of the precarious position of many European, including Russian, Jews, there was a concern of solving the issue as quickly as possible.
I know there are Zionists now who believe there has to be a two state solution. But there are many factions of Zionists. I never thought of the general belief of the Zionists, a homeland, as being a negative, it was just the way the process got carried out by those wanting power. Obviously what they did was wrong, bcs here we are 60 yrs later still dealing with the fallout.
Jean
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I do believe Israel needs and should have a safe nation - if they choose to make it a Jewish Homeland that is their business - it is the hiding of how this particular piece of land was chosen and the damage done to the Palestinians as well as the suppression of the careful plan for the displacement, carnage and destruction carried out by the Zionist and how Zionists in this country supported this action and made this land grab happen without giving this nation the information and by manipulating those in power like Truman.
What puzzles me but, that is a fantasy at this point - why a piece of Libya was not chosen since Libya was always friends and supporters of Jews and later after Zionism became a movement they supported the Zionist - neither here nor there - everything, including the insistence of fighting in WWII as an Israeli unit long before Israel was a state and Zionists demanded this unit fight with their newly designed flag created for WWII as a means of supporting the concept of a state as well as giving the Israeli's real guns that had been denied to them by the Brits - plus during the war the whole sale robbery of arms and trucks even faking vouchers for a ghost acquisition of equipment, arms and vehicles and then later in the 80s and 90s encouraging poor Jews from mostly Russia who never would have the resources to own property as immigré settlers to populate newly built settlements built on confiscated Palestinian farmland - there is just so much underhanded action that is not in keeping with wanting to help the Jews after the Holocaust.
I am seeing Israel as two sides of the coin and to ignore the behavior of the Zionists is leaving history as a fairy tale -
This is not about me liking or not liking the Zionists - this is bringing into the light their behavior as common knowledge rather than, suggesting with casual wording that there was not an aggressive land grab and Israel was smoothly created and that Zionists were not capable of having committed atrocities - as hard as that is, since we know of the atrocities towards the Jews but, that does not make the atrocities towards Palestinians worthy of sweeping under the table so that we do not see a fair assessment of Palestinians or for that matter a fair assessment of Zionism.
Having read Theodor Herzl, his argument for a Jewish State and for the start of Zionism is more than reasonable - however, as the organization to create a Jewish State progressed the Zionist leaders acted as thugs and criminals.
We also have many in the current state of Israel who would be pleased if the Zionist actions were not brought into the light. In affect, washing their hands over the actions used for the real start of Israel and to continue to ignore the legitimate claims Palestine has, if nothing else to be at least compensated for the killing of thousands and grabbing the land after displacing and burning out hundreds of thousands to create Israel -
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My mental drawbacks are that the jews were driven out of that area by muslims... I too thought that the original plans were to share the land. The Arabs did not help the situation by declaring their opposition to any sharing and bragging as to how they would massacre the jews. It is sad and useless in the current political climate. Both sides have backed theselves into corners.. and that is sad. Many many of what the muslims regard as holy was originally jewish temples, etc and they destroyed them and raised their own religious objects and that is wrong as well.There is no easy or simply answer
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Steph it is that kind of thinking that has been the usual - look at history and please read - the land was taken from the Palestinians - it was not that they fought sharing - section by section with a leader for each section homeowners and land holders were forced off the land and the buildings were burned etc. There was no sharing from the get go and then the Palestinians were blamed for what most of us would consider their right.
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Perhaps we are thinking different millennia here. True the Jews were driven out of Israel, but that was the Roman Empire and was almost two thousand years in the being before 1948. "The Jews" had no legal ownership of the land whatsoever by the time 1948 rolled around. Returning was their dream. It was the thread running through all of their writings. It was mentioned in every religious service or even family gathering. Those lands were legally held by mostly Arab families who had already owned them for generations, or had purchased them from other Arabs more recently. It had been a long, long time indeed since Israel was held by the Jews.
I wondered at the time how it was being done, but was too young and busy to examine it closely. Now I look back and realize the immense unfairness of the thing. Much of the world took in its breath in horror when we heard what was discovered in the Nazi death camps. We were of a mood to give the Jews HEAVEN ON EARTH if we could. But just not our little piece of earth. They want to return to what was their homeland almost 2,000 years ago? Well, why not?
And how it was to be done was all quite illegal, and the Powers knew it and left the British to fight it off, and the Brits just did not have the support of the rest of civilization, nor the will to continue fighting. They wanted to go home and put their lives back together, after the upheaval and suffering of a brutal long war.
Yes, it was a thrill to see that white & blue flag raised and hear our President declare recognition of the new state. I wanted so much for these persecuted peoples.
The humongous amount of human suffering that displaced whole communities and tribes of family units was plowed under in our minds.
And the question I put before us all is this: why do these descendants of peoples who were there 2,000 years ago hold sway over those who were actually there, or were there (now) within less than 100 years ago? Is not sentiment, a very old sentiment coated in extreme guilt for averting our eyes and our efforts from the Nazi will to exterminate the Jews, causing us to allow the Jews to now ruthlessly displace yet another tribe of peoples?
Ideally, tribalism should not trump every other card in the deck in every community. We are, on the whole, rather fond of mixed tribes in our own American neighborhoods; albeit this does not hold true from sea to shining sea, as it were. But we enjoy the different flavors, especially when they run from pizza to wiener schnitzel to Kung Pao. Basically, I think tribalism holds people back rather dreadfully, and I think the mindset of the Jews to be altogether in one place from which they had originated (well, as a tribe only, seeing as all human beings originated in Africa) was a huge mistake. It was a dream come true, dearly held and sung about for thousands of years, yet still a mistake.
But here we are. And Arabs ARE human beings trying to live decent family lives in peace, with hope for the future for themselves and their children. Forget for a moment about the power hungry strutting tyrants mouthing off, and remember the hoards of humans: grandparents, parents, and the children. Always the little children. What a huge WHY? must form in their minds when the bombs rain down.
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Thank you both for your explanations. Obviously we are now at a huge conundrum almost 70 yrs after decisions were made with emotion and power in the sights of those making them. How many U.S. administrations, and many others, have tried to help work out a solution? Most of their attempts have not worked. I guess the Israel/Egypt one has been the most successful. What a mess and extremists on both sides have kept the pot boiling all those years.
I have a sense that the Allies were feeling very superior after WWII and therefore felt they could direct anything to a successful conclusion. Hubris can be a very dangerous attitude.
Jean
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Jean please read Alison Weir's Against Our Better Judgment It is written so the reader understands what happened in the US not what prompted the actions on the part of Britain or the fledgling UN but it gives a whole new understanding how leaders are influenced. Leaders depend on the advise and information they are given and when it is slanted to a viewpoint they have no clue and that slant alters their actions.
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I think that is exactly right, Jean.
There was also a sense of hurry and do it and get back to LIFE. The war changed everything for ALL of us, in one way or a dozen or more, and everyone just wanted to put it all behind us and get on with the scenario Bing Crosby sang about in "My Blue Heaven."
And we did, we did. I married young, a sailor returned from the war, and we bought a brand new cookie cutter house in a humongous subdivision built on what had been farm pastures, on the G.I. Bill. Mortgage payments were $64.00 a month, P.I.T.I.! Televisions became available, and washing machines and hey, stereos! We had the first stereo on our block, and everyone came over to hear wonders like the sound of feet walking from one set of speakers to the other. Then 45s came in, and we wondered what to do with all of our 78s. I look back on it as a sunny time when we were all ignorant as all get out, but happy. Ike was a great president!
By the way, the answer to the question I raised about how did the Jews have the right to displace the Arabs is THEY WON THE WAR. The amazing war against the combined Arab armies of the time. The fact is, down throughout our history, the winner of a war wins all. I hate it. Have always hated it. But it is a truth we have to swallow.
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Oh MaryPage I would love to agree with the concept they won the war but the ethnic cleansing and destruction of the land taken for Israel happened before any war - and yes, most of us were not tuned into what was going on other than getting back to life and experiencing for the first time the good life since the war years came before the Depression had run its course so there was 15 years of down and we shot out of that like a New Year's celebration.
We certainly have not paid our dues to the Native tribes by not honoring treaties signed 150 to 200 and more years ago - and no we do not have a war in our face over it however, tribes are still trying to get a small bit of their due - we have for the most part at least acknowledged what we have done although at this point we do not know how to rectify it - I think that is all I see for Palestine - they are still angry and there is no attempt to rectify what was taken from them and it has led to not only war but a continuation of attempting to bury history. This is an attempt to make the Palestinians appear to be the bad guys who are squeezed further as time goes on. I could be wrong but I think the truth could balance the scales and foster a respect that comes with acknowledgment that would support a respect that does not exist today.
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And I think you are right, Barbara. I think all of the above, all of our concepts of how it was and is, is correct. Nothing is simple. My only point was, and yes, your timing is correct, but the final point was and is that they DID quite decisively win that war: the Arab Israeli War, and all the conflicts since. By pretty universally held consensus, they therefore have dominion over the territory. There is just so very much, very upsetting unfairness that does not border on unfairness, but IS unfair.
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I think you are saying 1967 erases what happened in 1948 - if so than why continue to try to hide it - why continue to have this lack of respect for the truth and to persuade others to avoid the truth - just reminds me of the Iranians who prefer to think the Holocaust never happened. We all know Israel is here to stay regardless how they took the land but by hiding the truth there is more demonetization of the Palestinians - this is what we used to call a war of propaganda.
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I may be, indeed am, getting confused in my dotage, Barbara, but I thought the Arab Israeli War was the 1947/1948 one and the 1967 was the Six Day War. Doesn't matter, really. All of these different aspects are true, but all that should really be on the table now is Life and Liberty for all: the right to seek happiness in peace, regardless of tribe, color, Faith.
I wish!
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http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/ethnic-cleansing-israeli
http://www.seamac.org/EthnicCleansing.htm
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html
On July 30, 1937 Yosef Bankover, a founding member and leader of Kibbutz Hameuhad movement and a member of Haganah's regional command of the coastal and central districts, stated that Ben-Gurion would accept the proposed Peel Commission partition plan under two conditions: 1) unlimited Jewish immigration 2) Compulsory population transfer for Palestinians. He stated that :
"Ben-Gurion said yesterday that he was prepared to accept the [Peel partition] proposal of the Royal commission but on two conditions: [Jewish] sovereignty and compulsory transfer ..... As for the compulsory transfer-- as a member of Kibbutz Ramat Hakovsh [founded in 1932 in central Palestine] I would be very pleased if it would be possible to be rid of the pleasant neighborliness of the people of Miski, Tirah, and Qalqilyah."
On December 19, 1947, Ben-Gurion advised the Haganah on the rules of engagement with the Palestinian population. He stated:
"we adopt the system of aggressive defense; with every Arab attack we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176-177 and Israel: A History, p. 156)
Ben-Gurion was happy and sad when the U.N. voted to Partition Palestine into two states, Palestinian and Jewish. He was happy because "finally" Jews could have a "country" of their own. On the other hand, he was sad because they have "lost" almost half of Palestine, and because they would have to contend with a sizable Palestinian minority, well over 45% of the total population. In the following few quotes, you will see how he also stated that a "Jewish state" cannot survive being 60% Jewish; implying that something aught to be done to remedy the so called "Arab demographic problem".
In a speech addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6, 1948, Ben-Gurion clearly stated that war could be used as an instrument to solve the so called "Arab demographic problem". He stated:
"We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area, even if only in an artificial way, in a military way. . . . I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of [Palestinian] Arab population." (Benny Morris, p. 181 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181)
Ben-Gurion clearly never believed in static borders, but dynamic ones as described in the Bible. He stated during a discussion with his aides:
"Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interests was self-defense. To a large extent, the creation of the state was an act of self-defense. . . . Many think that we're still at the same stage. But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defense. As for setting the borders--- it's an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in our history, there all kinds of definitions of the country's borders, so there's no real limit. Bo border is absolute. If it's a desert--- it could just as well be the other side. If it's sea, it could also be across the sea. The world has always been this way. Only the terms have changed. If they should find a way of reaching other stars, well then, perhaps the whole earth will no longer suffice." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 6)
It has been customary among all Zionists leaders to use the Bible to justify perpetrating WAR CRIMES. Regardless of the methods used to build the "Jewish state", the quote above is a classical example how the Bible is used to achieve political objectives.
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Leave it to the women - it may be the influence of women that can get some justice and peace enacted in Palestine and Israel
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/peace-movements-in-israel
And this one is how this US woman became aware of what happened in 1948 and its affects - which by the way I did not know that the US paid for the wall erected by Israel separating them from Palestine.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
And here is a powerful group - Bat Shalom - who are Jewish and Palestinian women working for peace.
Wow get this...
It is our conviction that all Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories occupied in 1967 are illegal, as stipulated by international law, and violate the requirements for peace. Palestinian: Israel accepts its moral, legal, political and economic responsibility for the plight of Palestinian refugees and thus must accept the right of return according to relevant UN resolutions. Israeli: Israel's recognition of its responsibility in the creation of the Palestinian refugees in 1948 is a pre-requisite to finding a just and lasting resolution of the refugee problem in accordance with relevant UN resolutions. Respect for international conventions, charters and laws and the active involvement of the international community in the peace process are crucial to its success.
https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/bat-shalom-jewish-and-palestinian-women-for-peace-and-human-rights
Now this has to be on my list - this month's books are already ordered so it will have to be next month
http://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/ballots-babies-and-banners-of-peace-american-jewish-womens-activism
Here is yet another Jewish Palestinian group of women for peace called The Bridge they are attempting to "promote the status of women, and peace in the Middle East."
http://www.iflac.com/ada/html/bridge.html
This group is not women centered - it is Jews For Justice in Palestine - We seldom hear from or about this group and as long as this kind of effort is active we may yet see some fair play towards those who were 'displaced' from their land and homes in 1948 - the site is slow to upload
http://jfjfp.com/
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I am convinced that if we did "leave it to the women," the world would be at peace. Most women lack that combative instinct. We usually, most of us, first want to try to fix, nurse, minister to, and generally help in difficult situations. We try to find happy solutions. Very rarely do you encounter women whose first instinct is to fight.
I will leave this world soon and, while in our own culture and the Western European for the most part women are not looked upon as they were when I was born, as either a man's daughters or wife FIRST and a personality second, most of the planet still has a long, tough road to travel for women to be recognized as total human beings worthy of full lives and citizenship. Both my father and my first husband became enraged when I did not display total subservience to their lordship over my person. My instinct to be myself came both from my birth mother's DNA and my going to an all girl prep school. Both my second and final husbands saw me as a complete equal. I bless their memories.
By the way, there is a terrific new series on PBS called HOME FIRES. You will all love it to bits. English village World War II. What the women did for their country. You know, in just one whole heck of a lot of ways, that war was a time of emancipation for us women, both in Great Britain and here.
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To slide in something,,, in both
WWI and WWII... the arabs were quite definitely not on the Allies side.. and possibly the UN was looking at that. Actually I just want them to work it out. none of this ... all mine from either side... and that is not going to happen.
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There is an outstanding, and I really mean that, OUTSTANDING article by Joe Klein in the October 19th (yes, I know, we haven't gotten to that date yet, but magazines are made up and come early these days!) issue of TIME magazine. Pages 36 and 37. About the Middle East problem(s), complete with a great map showing the players.
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Tomorrow is my 74th birthday and I am going to have a wonderful time having lunch with my best friend Barbara, and we will be discussing two books which I found recently, Women of Ideas and What Men Have Done to Them by Dale Spender (a female) and Profiles of Female Genius by Gene Landrum.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_fb_0_14?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=women+of+ideas+and+what+men+have+done+to+them&sprefix=Women+of+ideas%2Cstripbooks%2C130
http://www.amazon.com/Profiles-Female-Genius-Gene-Landrum/dp/0879758929/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444841272&sr=8-1&keywords=Profiles+of+female+genius
Can't beat $.01 plus postage!!!
The lunch and discussion will be especially bittersweet for me because she is the only person left in my friend circle with whom I could have such a discussion on women's issues, or who might have read the books, I know she has the first book.
But! Boohoo! She is going to be moving to NC in the spring, i'm depressed already. Another dear friend moved to Savannah, last July, she was also one whom I could talk with about women's issues and women's history. Both have been my friends for forty years and all three of us have been very active in the Alice Paul Institute. In fact Barbara was the fulltime volunteer president of API for 15 yrs and led us through the purchase of Alice's effects and then the purchase of her family's homestead which is now the home of the Institute. The Institute is just about ready to open an exhibit on the women's suffrage movement.
But, their most important programing is multiple programs for girls age 12-18 centered around being leaders and learning about women who have been leaders. In fact this past weekend they took a bus load of girls to the UN for the International Day of the Girl. One of the girls was even chosen to make a speech. This group in combination with a group of girls from the Bella Azburg estate recently made a video about where they hope women's leadership will be in 2065.
http://www.alicepaul.org
Jean
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Impressive video. Those girls are our future.
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They are a wonderful group. They know that Feminist is not a word to run away from, and they are learning that there is a woman's history and women can be capable, strong and independent in a male dominated world.
The Spender book gives a lot of attention to feminists of the past and their writings and how they were hidden, rejected, made invisible by the male dominated societies. She reiterates how much further along women's rights and opportunities might be if we had not had to keep inventing the philosophy because we didn't know anyone had stated it before. Spender starts with writings of Alphra Behn in the 17th century, but we know there were women writing about being strong and independent persons in the patriarchy long before that time.
Jean
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Happy Birthday, early, Jean. I know how hard it is to have your friends move away. I hope you can visit from time to time.
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It is marvelous to behold how much is being done and how much potential for even more progress there is now that we are in the age of instant search for information and full retrieval of ALL the data there is out there all around this planet.
People used to be severely limited to whatever books they had on hand in any given community. Such a vastly different and amazing landscape of knowledge out there at anyone's fingertips now.
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I used to say to our kids and to my students that the library was the best thing since sliced bread - and its free! I would now have to say "if you have the money to afford it, the internet is the best thing, but if you can't, the library is still the best!!!
Jean
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Yep...and if you don't have the internet, go to the Library, and they'll have it for you for free.
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JEAN!
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Happy Birthday Jean
(http://dailysmspk.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/birthday-wishes.jpg)
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Happy Birthday Jean,.. on your friends moving. Facebook is wonderful for this and I keep up with friends all over the US.
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This article by Hilary Angus originally appeared on Momentum Mag on March 5, 2015.
Susan B. Anthony, famed suffragette leader and women’s rights reformer, once said of the bicycle, “I think it has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world. It gives women a feeling of freedom and self-reliance.” Anthony described the image of a woman on a bicycle as “the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood.”
It may seem surprising that the bicycle could have played such a pivotal role in the women’s rights movement. What exactly was it about this familiar two-wheeled transportation device that lent itself so freely to unparalleled social change?
In the mid 1800s, when the early women’s rights movement was gathering steam in the West, there were clearly defined roles and expectations for women. A woman’s place was thought to be in the home, and her role was a domestic one. But as women pushed back against these structures and demanded a place in the public sphere, the bicycle came to be emblematic of their bid for freedom. By enabling women to control their own transportation needs, it offered an autonomy that had previously been out of reach. Riding a bicycle shattered norms of appropriate conduct for women of the day and ushered in a new era of women asserting control over their bodies and behavior.
But the bicycle’s role as a catalyst for social change did not stop there. Amelia Bloomer, another famous women’s rights advocate and the namesake of the 1800’s women’s pants commonly referred to as “bloomers,” made dress reform a cornerstone of her work. Bloomer believed the full-length skirts and dresses worn by women in the 1800s to be restrictive and overburdening. A woman in a long skirt or dress could not easily ride a bicycle, and a woman who could not ride a bicycle was inhibited. Rather than be discouraged, Bloomer and many of her contemporaries switched to pants so they could ride unencumbered.
To those interested in maintaining the status quo, the image of a woman in bloomers was scandalous. The “unseemly” and “masculine” attire was so groundbreaking at the time that it came to be held as a symbol of the early women’s rights movement in much of the Western world. Bloomers provided women not only with the physical freedom of mobility and greater health, but served as a symbolic challenge to commonly-held notions of femininity, and represented a marked cultural shift away from the Victorian attitudes of the day.
(http://www.railstotrails.org/media/41628/la_bicycliste_et_caricature_1897_opt.jpg?crop=0,0,0,0.21590909090909094&cropmode=percentage&width=880&height=460&rnd=130897291560000000)
In 1894, Annie “Londonderry” Kopchovsky was not unlike most 19th-century women. A Jewish immigrant, a 23-year-old mother of three and a dutiful housewife, Kopchovsky was neither a cyclist nor an advocate for women’s rights. But when two men made an alleged bet that no woman could encircle the globe on a bicycle while earning $5,000 along the way, Kopchovksy took up the challenge.
Leaving from Boston in full skirts on a 42-pound Columbia bicycle, Kopchovsky set out to prove to the world that women were not only physically and mentally strong, but fully capable of providing for themselves in a man’s world. She carried advertising placards on her bicycle and on her person to earn money on the journey, and even adopted the surname Londonderry as a contract with the Londonderry Lithia Spring Water company. She bicycled through Europe and North Africa and sailed on to the South Pacific before returning to the states through San Francisco.
When she rolled in to Boston 15 months later, Londonderry was a new woman. Clad in bloomers and physically transformed, Londonderry went on to become a vocal—and popular—advocate for both cycling and women’s rights. The New York World remarked in 1895 that her trip was “the most extraordinary journey ever undertaken by a woman,” leaving an immeasurable impact on the attitudes about women—and of women—at that day.
RELATED: History Happened Here: Sidepaths and the Persistent Dreams of Trail Building
Kittie Knox
When Katie Knox walked into the annual meeting of the League of American Wheelmen (now the League of American Bicyclists) in 1895 and presented her membership card, she also presented a challenge to American racial segregation.
Knox, a bi-racial seamstress and avid cyclist (and at the time only 21 years old), had been a card-carrying member of the League since 1893. But when the League passed a color bar in 1894 declaring that only white people could be awarded membership, Knox’s status in the organization was called into question. Rather than accept the news sitting down, Knox got on her bike.
Clad in men’s clothing and with the support of her peers in the cycling community, Knox entered a racially segregated social space and calmly asserted her right to be there. While there are conflicting reports on the outcome of the day—some newspapers claimed she was denied entry while others said she was accepted—her appearance at the event nonetheless thrust the issues of race and gender into the public consciousness.
At a time when few black people—and even fewer black women—were riding bikes in the United States, Knox’s actions were groundbreaking. Receiving wide public support for the act from both black and white community members, Knox challenged public perceptions of both black people and women, igniting local and national debate about race and gender in the cycling world and in the wider community.
“Women Repairing Bicycle, c. 1895” by Unknown
(http://arc.lib.montana.edu/msu-photos/objects/parc-000135.jpg)
If a bicycle offers a woman independence, then full independence can be achieved only through total responsibility for your bicycle. This was the idea behind Maria Ward’s “Bicycling for Ladies,” a definitive guide to cycling for women published in 1896. Ward aimed to emancipate women from reliance on men by teaching them everything they need to know about buying, riding and maintaining a bicycle.
While almost all women of the day had mastered domestic technical skills such as sewing, more mechanical skills such as bicycle repair were thought to be the domain of men. Ward maintained that women were no less capable of mechanical pursuits than their male counterparts, writing in her introduction to “Women and Tools,” “I hold that any woman who is able to use a needle or scissors can use other tools equally well.”
“Bicycling for Ladies” covered everything from choosing a bicycle to cycling etiquette to the laws of mechanics and physiology, providing women with the tools they needed—both literal and figurative—to ride their way to freedom.
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Interesting information, Barbara. I knew the Anthony quote and understood the importance of the bicycle to women, but I had not heard the other stories. All of this is apropos what with David McCullough's book on the Wright brothers recently published.
I'm sorry to hear MaryPage is not well. I hope you are soon feeling better. We miss you and your smart comments on SeniorLearn.
Thank you all for the birthday greetings. The lunch with my friend was wonderful. She recently had a conversation with Elizabeth Cady Stanton's grt granddgt. Everyone is gearing up for the centennial of women's winning the right to vote in 2020.
Megan Smith, the computer guru at the White House recently asked the Archives director to let her see the original document of the Declaration of Sentiments - the Stanton document based on the Dec of Independence - that was presented by Stanton and voted on at the first Women's Rights Convention at Seneca Falls, NY in 1848. It was the first call in the USA for women to have the vote. It turns out that no one knows where the original is and Megan has gone on a hunt for it. Barbara thought Coline -the grtgrndgt - might have some ideas of who might have it.
Jean
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You would think that something that relevant would have been archived, but alas, it was for women, not the all important men.
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I just saw that Harriet Tubman is going to be the honored woman replacing Andrew Jackson on the $10 bill.
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oh darn. I did so want Eleanor. She helped all people.. but the current style seems to be to honor mimorities.
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I think they should have created a $25 bill, instead, and that Margaret Sanger should be on it. Harriet Tubman was one fantastic woman, and I salute her. But Margaret Sanger saved generations of women, and her good work goes on into the future, albeit not without unceasing resistance from the women-haters. Poor Sanger is long in her grave, and even this very day they are writing lies about her.
Thank you, Jean, for your concern for me. I have a Sciatica situation here, with pain these last weeks that just grows and grows, until now it is unrelenting. I was diagnosed August 5th, and they tried physical therapy and it just grew worse and they tried Prednisone and it just grew worse and they gave me an MRI and found my spine in really bad shape. I am to have a lumbar nerve root block on Monday, for which I have hope, but just now the pain is all. It is 24/7. On the upside, having no appetite I have lost 5 pounds.
Seriously, I think a $25 bill would come in handy these days. Wasn't necessary back in the day. I earned $30 a week at my very first job!
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Oh, MaryPage, I can so sympathize with your back pain. Thank goodness mine is not sciatica, this time, so i can have good control over it with being careful how I sit or lay down and otc drugs. Mine is a fractured vertabrae and a herniated disk, which I guess everybody our age has at least one of.
I support any of those women to be on currancy, but I do think MS and ER had a much more profound and long lasting influence on the world than Harriet Tubman. I assume it was on this site, but i don't remember for sure, but someone suggested why not have more than one woman, makes sense to me. Why does it have to be just one? I assume scanners read the number, not the picture. Of course, there is the whole movement of the "woman on the 20 on 2020", to celebrate the 19th amendment. Again, why does it have to be just one women? We've had various people on a dollar coin???
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Thank you, Jean, and yes, I most certainly DO NOT want to take away one scintilla of praise due and/or acknowledgment of Harriet Tubman; not for a nanosecond.
But if we are to be, as indeed we are, allowed the face of only ONE woman on our male dominated currency, I do think it should be a woman who has exercised an influence upon the most possible number of people. And for that reason, like you, Eleanor Roosevelt and Margaret Sanger were, I felt, the two best candidates, with Sanger trumping Roosevelt for the most fish in her net.
Thank goodness we are confined to just American women, as our country is not all that old and we do not have as large an eligible group as we would have were we to take in the entire world history of women. God knows Marie Curie was responsible for saving a lot of our lives!
Oh, well. Three cheers for Harriet. When I think on it, I realize that it was the men, and not the women, of this country who really, really hated Eleanor Roosevelt and who to this day hate, hate, hate Margaret Sanger! Of COURSE they would vote for Tubman!
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I would vote for Harriet Tubman as well.
As a nurse, I had heard nothing but positive things about Margaret Sanger in my training. And I was surprised when women I met did not always share my impression of her. I decided to read some of her works myself; and I must say that I was horrified at some of the views she voiced and some of the proposals she pushed for. So, given that I think many women may have objected to her being featured, Tubman, seems to me, is a much more unifying choice.
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Possible correction: I've just read that Tubman won the popular vote to be on the $20, but that the Treasury Department hasn't made it's final decision yet. Guess I need to do more checking. Sorry about that.
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Funny, I have never ever heard a woman who did not approve of Margaret Sanger, lots of men, no women,, same with Eleanor,, men hated her, women loved her... oh well, it will be men who decide so it doesnt matter what we think.. Since we are half the population, we should get half of the bills and coins to be on, but that wont happen either.
MaryPage, sciatica sounds truly dreadful.. If you need to yell and scream, you have my email and I will listen and not tell you any cures, just listening.
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There are not many women, especially educated women, who do not like Margaret Sanger. There is one problem I have with her, and that is that she did not approve of abortion. But she did advocate and fight for the right of women to use birth control.
There was and still is an insidious campaign against her, especially affecting the black community. She was said to be a eugenicist, which she most definitely was not. But she KNEW some, and was declared guilty by association. In those days, you could not not know some, I swear. At least that was so in my home state of Virginia. I have just read the wonderful history of Autism titled NeuroTribes, and it tells you of the very strong eugenicist movement in this country IN MY LIFETIME! Horrific stuff to ingest, but Hitler may well have gotten a lot of his ideas about doing away with those labeled "feeble-minded" right from OUR doctors right here in the United States! I had heard little bits and pieces previously, but never before did I know it was so prevalent here. Truly ghastly stuff.
But the lies about Margaret Sanger were written and told by men in an attempt to stop women from obtaining their freedom from child bearing. I'll not tell you any of the details here, but urge you to Google "lies about Margaret Sanger." That alone will give you a most unpleasant feast of material.
Margaret Sanger was a good woman. My Aunt Virginia knew her and admired her totally, and I have heard nothing but good things about her all of my life, with the exception of the lying propaganda. It has always been true that if you are a woman standing up for something, there will be absolute avalanches of horrid lies told about you. Goes with the territory.
Speaking of which, have you seen the latest, what is her name, Flo? Fran? Flo, I think. The one who does those Progressive Insurance ads. A man is saying that women don't work, and she says "Yes, they do" and he says "Where is your husband?" I lived through those days and can attest that they were real. That was the way it was, and you were practically a harlot if you were married and held down a job "a man could fill." All single women had to be household help or teachers, nurses or secretaries.
Steph, I thank you. This pain defines the limits of my almost one dimensional world these days. I count the moments until Monday morning, and am putting all of my hope in that nerve block. My family is taking great care of me. You are a real sweetheart. By the way, are you in Florida now? I saw a documentary on PBS last night about sinkholes in Florida that will be giving me nightmares for a long time to come.
Now seriously, Galfriends: Google Lies About Margaret Sanger
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I don't remember how i got in the conversation, but i once was talking with an evangelical minister who said Sanger was a racist. I investigated that and discovered that that label was put on her when she spoke to the wives of a KKK group in southern NJ about birth control! So more guilt by association!
When Rosa Ruiz, US Treasurer was at the Alice Paul Institute she wouldn't say who had been chosen to be on the $10 bill but she said "you will be very pleased." I took that to mean someone like ER. I'm sure it will not be MS, she is much too controversial these days, having been the founder of Planned Parenthood.
"Helen and Margaret" have been all over the Texas attack on PP. just their "headlines" have been hilarious.
http://margaretandhelen.com
Jean
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Oh, meant to mention how proud i was of Hillary yesterday. She was cool and confident and competent! I think the Repubs shot themselves in the foot, they looked rude, aggressive, even idiotic about the whole issue. Even Gowdy said today they had learned nothing new, as though it was her resposibility to tell them something new, not their responsibility to ask new questions, or that there is NOTHING new to find.
Barbara, are you o.k., re: fires. And i hope you will be safe re: coming torrents of rain.
Jean
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just peeked in - getting ready for the floods - need to dig the trench along the front of my house a bit deeper and get a few groceries while I can.
Bad fire last weekend in neighborhood in which 3 firefighters were very badly burned - second floor of the Condo fell on top of them. the greenbelt behind the condo was in flames and lept to the condo - we in the neighborhood are housing and chipping in to care for 51 of the displaced Condo owners.
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I was busting proud of Hilary.
But the behavior and facial expressions of the Republican committee members was a blot on the reputation of the House of Representatives of these United States.
They have all been partaking of something. Something poisonous rotten. They speak and behave in such a truly stupid manner, and they are supposed to have educations and be representative of the citizens who voted them into office. Scary, it is. So very demoralizing and depressing and downright scary.
One thing that amazes me is that they are so ignorant of the workings of the State Department. I swear, they do not seem to know as much as I do! Granted, I had a sister in law who spent her entire career in embassies and consulates around this world, but still, I learned very little from HER. But even I know there is very little emailing at State. They use the phone and the cable system. She, Hilary Clinton that is, would have been communicating with the legation in Libya by phone and cable, and NOT by email! Scheesch!
If Hilary could just get it in her head that they know less than most kindergartners, she could probably come up with a primer to give them a quickie education. But I don't really think she is aware of how totally lacking in the facts they are, and god knows THEY themselves think they know it ALL!
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jean, I LOVE Margaret & Helen!
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I must move among a very different group of women - many with degrees, some not. Women without degrees are not necessarily uneducated? But many from those I know had real problems with Sanger's tone and hostility; given she was fighting an up-hill battle, I didn't think that was unusual. But I heard the same things you posted here after college about Sanger - so I drew my own conclusions from her own writings!
Hillary sounded cool to me - but illogical as her answers contradicted each other. Sorry - I didn't believe her. Even though the Democrats gave speeches supportive of her efforts and even brought up that Rice didn't turn over even 1 page of e- mails.....but you all remember that Rice had none to turn over, right? Because they were all on government servers and left behind in the State Department (sorry this is written poorly as I am on an iPad; not my favorite tool :)).
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What contradictions did you find in her answers? ❓
What did you not believe? ⁉️
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What impressed me the most is Hillary Clinton's demeanor after 11 hours of hearing. She stayed calm and dignified. She appeared the most statesmanlike of any of the candidates for President.
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Hilary Clinton will be on the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC tonight at nine Eastern time.
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hmm. three different Secretaries of State used private email servers.. It has been everywhere for months, but the republicans dont seem to c are and the man in charge of the committee is unbelievable. Going back to elementary school, he was the Eddie of his generations. She did a good job, just like the news said, the ones who want to believe will and the ones who dont wont,, but do remember Iran and the captives from the embassy. People blamed Carter, not the Secretary of State. Some people are going to be against Hillary, no matter what.. I suspect whatever woman was running, they would still hate them..
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Unfortunately, I have to agree with every word you say, Steph. I say unfortunately because it is such an indictment of our male chauvinist pig congress, and oh how I, as a child of the Shenandoah and the Blue Ridge right here in these United States, would wish to Praise that very same Congress and cite them as a group of singular glory to the rest of the world. Alas, their outrageous behavior and unbecoming motivations shame us hugely. Shame us.
But yes, Hilary was fantastic. And last night both Rachel and Hilary were fantastic. Best interview EV ER !
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As for the email as used by other Secretaries of State, this matter really has NOT been put in perspective. First of all, the Clintons ALREADY HAD and were using their own server in their own home in New York before Hilary was made Secretary of State. Not weird at all, considering he had been PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES! I mean, ANYone in that situation would WANT their own server, for crying out loud!
Then there is this: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/23/hillary-clinton/clinton-says-john-kerry-was-first-secretary-state-/
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I was glued to the TV and watched the whole thing and was exhausted. I was impressed with Hillary. Her intelligence and command of facts is astounding. I am surprised that many of our representatives understand so little about the government they represent. My husband was just as impressed as I was with Hillary.
I was also impressed with Tammy Duckworth who actually was non-partisan in her questions and stuck to questions about remedying any future problems. Although in those "hot spots" there will never be complete security.
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The new "government" in Libya was and is well disposed towards us. We had high hopes for both the country, which Stevens knew well and had lots of friendly contacts in, and for our relationship with the new government.
He was gung ho to get back there and get to work. Full of enthusiasm for doing so. Raring to get that consulate up and running.
Neither the Libyan government nor our Intelligence had any inklings of trouble to come. We thought the Security squad we had on site was sufficient unto the day. No one in the Security section of the Department of State thought it necessary to add more security, and it was never brought to the Secretary of State as a possible problem.
We have hundreds of embassies, consulates and legations all over this world. Ever so many years one gets attacked by one terrorist group or another, protesting one grievance or another.
No one has previously tried to hold ANY Secretary of State's feet to the fire because of an attack and a loss of American lives.
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Thats what is so weird and wrong about all of the witch hunts. Noone has ever been held accountable like they want to hold her. How wrong is that..
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In the 1983 suicide bombing at our embassy in Beirut, 63 died, 17 of them Americans. No inquisition of the Secretary of State, or the Ambassador or of President Ronald Reagan. Instead, the congress voted for lots more money to help Lebanon!
You see, the Democrats are always full of empathy, as opposed to an automatic reaction of finger pointing and blame pasting. And of course the Republicans were not about to ask so much as a wisp of a question about any part or portion of their sainted Ronald Reagan's administration.
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This is a short excerpt from Politifact:
Two of those individuals haven’t provided personal emails for good reason: They didn’t use email much during their time at the State Department. According to MSNBC, an aide for Albright said she "did not use email while she was in office" from 1997 to 2001.
Similarly, Rice, head of the State Department from 2005 to 2009, was not a habitual emailer either, according to multiple reports. As Harf noted in a State Department briefing, "Secretary Rice has repeatedly said that she did not regularly use email," and a spokesperson for Rice told ABC, "She did not use personal email for official communication as secretary."
Essentially, two of the four former officials contacted didn’t turn any emails over because they didn’t have any to turn over. That’s pretty important context.
And what about Powell, who served as Secretary of State during President George W. Bush’s first term? Powell appeared on ABC’s This Week to answers those questions.
Apparently, Powell can’t turn over any documents. Why? Because he doesn’t have them anymore.
"I retained none of those e-mails and we are working with the State Department to see if there's anything else they want to discuss with me about those emails," he said.
"I did not keep a cache of them. I did not print them off," he added. "I do not have thousands of pages somewhere in my personal files."
Harf acknowledged in a March 4 briefing that Powell's "account has been closed for a number of years," and said, "He’s looking to see if there’s anything responsive he still has."
You can draw your own conclusions about Powell not saving official emails from a 10-year-old account, and the relevance of that revelation to the Clinton controversy. Powell said most of his important correspondence would have been archived already, since they were sent to staff who had State Department accounts.
But it does shed light on why Powell didn’t provide emails to the State Department, and it also demonstrates that he has taken steps to comply with the request, even if only recently.
So to recap: The State Department reached out to four former secretaries asking about personal email accounts. Two have said they rarely used email, the third used personal email but had no records to turn over and the fourth was Clinton.
That makes Schumer’s defense fairly hollow when you think about it.
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hmm. How about you are taking Rice and Albrights word, not actually looking.. Sorry, but I am so sick of this whole thing. The republicans are beating a dead horse over and over. Please take the little chairman somewhere and drown him, I dislike smirkers and he is a champion.
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It is just a red herring - we know that the majority of communications from any State Department location outside the US is done by Cable or direct phone and we also know that every president past and present have their own server and ever wife of every president, past and present uses that server thats when you realize this whole thing is nuts.
In the meantime Congress decided it needed a raise however SS payments will not see a raise again for the second year in a row...
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First I'm told that State Department business is not done by e-mail; that they use the phone or meet in person. Well, phones records are kept. Now I'm being told that two other State Department heads (both women, by the way - one even a Dem.) used emails too and we're just taking their word for it. Actually we aren't? The State Department has confirmed that those e-mails were sent from the department and never left the premises. Which is also a requirement.
What I was struck by was the parsing of words - what people think of as 'lawyer-talk'. Remember, she didn't say that she was unaware of the request for more security; the department had records for at least 20 such requests since the middle of August; and the British had already pulled out. Stevens was told they lacked resources. And someone actually gave an order for our military - close enough to intervene and evacuate personnel - to 'stand down'; who? The attack actually lasted 7-8 hours - plenty of time there - and the military was ready and willing. But four men died - two were burned alive! And what ever happened to the man arrested for making a video? No, these 'investigations' just turn up more questions than they answer.
As for being tired of it all - I got tired of hearing about Nixon, Iran-Contra, Bush's War. But I still thought it was worth enduring to find the truth, don't you? Don't the victims deserve at least that?
Mrs. Clinton said that such a request 'never came across my desk'. She wouldn't answer direct questions with a direct answer. And she said that no e-mails were sent or received that were marked classified. How would anyone know, since she destroyed so many of them? Besides, the rule is that she be able to identify 'sensitive' information, whether it is labeled 'classified' or not. Many e-mails have already been extracted that fit that category. Was she unable to discern information anyone in that position is required to be able to do?
And why did she send them to a small tech company where people (presumably) could access them? And why did big-money individuals (like Blumenthal) get special access to her? Apparently he wanted the regime in Libya toppled because he was advancing a business proposition and meeting resistance? And why did so much money pour in to the Clinton Foundation from people/nations who could receive direct benefit from access to the White House?
She can't have it both ways. She was either carefully attending to and assessing the security risk in these areas - even to closing/evacuating some; or she had no idea of the need because she was leaving everything up to two under-secretaries, one position she appears to have created herself. Stevens was also 'hand picked' by her.
It was an election. The bad guys were supposed to be 'on the run'. Libya was supposed to be 'fixed'. The illusion needed to be defended? Even if you don't believe that happened, surely you can see how it might be viewed that way?
Compassion should go to the victims here!
But it is all a dance. Well choreographed. The players have their long-established parts and big-money individuals/corporations will have their way. It's just ours to watch play out I guess.
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Not just a smirker. That is not the total of the way I saw him. I saw total contempt of Secretary Clinton written all over his face and in his body language. He so very obviously belongs to that tribe of haters who go into a "public hearing with the objective of getting to the bottom of a situation," but who actually have their minds made up and locked in place before hand.
"You have to be taught, before it's too late, to hate all the people your relatives hate. You have to be carefully taught."
I like folks who approach any given conversation with congeniality and an obvious desire to give everyone present full trust and belief. I expect after these Benghazi hearings there will be many lifelong Republicans who, just as I did, find they are all jumbled up in a bunch of zany creeps and wonder where in the world are the sane guys and how did their party get so off track from their original values of Peace, Progress & Prosperity, not to mention civil rights and individual privacy.
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Stevens had been with the Foreign Service for some time, and had even been posted to Libya twice previously, where he had great contacts. It was a very natural thing for him to be promoted to Ambassador. He was a CAREER employee, and not a political appointee.
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Yes. That's true. But Mrs. Clinton did want him there....he was her choice. Then she said she hadn't heard from him since his appointment in May.
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There is a news item in our local paper, The Capital (named because Annapolis is the capital of Maryland) this very day that is typical of what I am talking about. The headline is:
Former state Senate candidate Quinn exits GOP
The article is too long for me to copy here, but Don Quinn is an elected member of this County’s (Anne Arundel County in Maryland) Republican State Central Committee. These are the folks who actually RUN the party in our county and city, and you don’t get elected to that august body unless you have been around for quite a while and done a lot of service in party ranks.
Quinn has quit because:
“Sadly, my days on the central committee have shown that the party leadership does not share my vision for how to achieve a better Maryland and a stronger, more inclusive America.
Unfortunately I have found myself thwarted by a culture that is rooted in the past, refuses to look to the horizon, and prefers business as usual.”
In particular, Quinn favors saving the Chesapeake Bay, which is now 70% dead (no oxygen in the water and therefore no life), bringing our educational system up to snuff, and taking steps to save us all from the affects of Climate Change. Local Republicans want Nature to bring the Bay back to health, want to cut funds for education, and believe Climate Change is a hoax.
Those are just some of the things mentioned in the article, all of which are quite interesting and typical.
OK, so much for what Quinn, now a brand new democrat, had to say. Here is what the recent president of the Maryland Young Republicans (hey, back in the day I was their VICE president!) Brian Griffiths had to say in response:
“My read of this letter is that Don Quinn is a lazy, insufferable egomaniac who thought he could pull a fast one of voters and infiltrate his liberal views into the Republican Party. A shocking level of political naivete.”
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Jus plain fun with a nice message about "awesome girls." Interesting website too.
http://youtu.be/RTezIzJW1No
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There is a brand new book out titled NOTORIOUS RBG
all about Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the life long fight she has made on behalf of women. The reviews are excellent.
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From The New Yorker:
Clinton, on the other hand, has made it clear that she is running as a progressive candidate; in the first Democratic debate, she defined herself as “a progressive who believes in getting things done.” To back up this talk, she has rolled out a series of proposals, including paid sick leave, expanded child care for preschoolers, a higher minimum wage, tax breaks for firms that promote employee share ownership, and a series of measures designed to make college more affordable. None of the things she has proposed is particularly radical, but taken together they amount to a concerted effort to tackle wage stagnation and boost the middle class.
Good summary of her actions so far, moving the country forward.
Jean
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Yes, I have read reviews of the book and plan on getting it. She interestsme, one picture showed the young Ruth... What a knockout..Who knew??
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Indeed!
And right on about Hilary Clinton, Jean.
She will be on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert tonight.
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Yes, she was very good on Colbert. Relaxed and comfortable and fun. I think she's taking a page out of Obama's and Bill's book, be the person people would like to meet socially.
More craziness about Planned Parenthood and no ability of some rt-wing men to parce the issue of abortion as opposed to the GREAT thing Margaret Sanger did for the world by seeing that a birth control pill was developed! Are these guys 15 yrs old? They act like that is their mental capacity. I don't like to use labelling or name-calling, but I have not in my 74 yrs heard so many irrational, self-centered statements! Do they not have wives, mothers and dgts who love having the birth control pill?
http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/ted-cruz-vs-margaret-sangers-portrait?mbid=nl_151028_Daily&CNDID=38959653&spMailingID=8199239&spUserID=MTExMDk0NjYzMDk3S0&spJobID=783528448&spReportId=NzgzNTI4NDQ4S0
Jean
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I know candidates just say what they think the public wants, but the republicans are so far over the top and away from what women think. Although Carly is also way out in la la land, but she also just knows that Hillary is scared of her.. I am glad that Hillary finally relaxed.. I suspect she can be funny and happy, but she has always been running for things.. Sad really.
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This is really, really a hot button with me. It has all of my long life astonished me that ALL women do not stand up on their tippy toes and scream at the constant put downs coming from the male overlords.
In previous centuries men frequently had two, three, even more wives in succession BECAUSE THEY DIED IN CHILDBIRTH. Look at your own family trees, and you will find this over and over and over.
Even in the first decades of the 20th century most females were married before they got out of their teens. The law was, and actually I believe it still is, that men had a legal right to demand their "conjugal rights," which meant the wife must assent to sex upon demand. To refuse sex could mean automatic divorce (or in the Church, annulment), and being tossed out to terrifying lack of support for someone unskilled for the work force.
So women frequently got pregnant every year, until they died (in or from childbirth) or finally went through menopause and were no longer able to get pregnant. Desperate ones turned to the local abortionists, and were lucky if they lived through that. Frank Sinatra's mother was one in her neighborhood. They were, actually, much more prevalent than they are today, as women helped women.
Then came our savior in the form of Margaret Sanger. Her purpose was to free women from the necessity of enduring one pregnancy after another after another after another. She brought us Birth Control.
Eugenics were a BIG THING at the same time. Yes, read a history of it and discover the truth. There were a lot of prominent people who were sold on it, and a lot of well credentialed American doctors who promoted it big time, especially for the mentally ill, feeble-minded, and races other than the white. Yes, there were. I am NOT making this up.
So the upshot was actually that it was difficult for anyone with any sort of public life whatsoever not to know some of these people. Newspapers, magazines, books, letters and conversations were full of the subject. Thus it was that Margaret Sanger became tainted with it: it was a matter of her joining in the discussion. She was never in and of herself a promoter of eugenics. That was never her passion. Making it possible for women to control the size of their families for not only their own lives and health, but for the health and well being of their children WAS her passion, and I, for one, will thank her with all of my heart to my dying day.
The lying is despicable. But WHY oh WHY aren't ALL women protesting strenuously? I just don't get it!
Oh, and one last, but very important tidbit. Margaret Sanger was opposed to abortion. She was never, ever, an advocate for abortion and did not want her clinics to have any part in it. So why is she The Great Villain? To this very day, why is she so dreadful that murderers and rapists and tyrants can be in the Smithsonian, but she cannot? She brought us Birth Control and some freedom from the physical toll of constant pregnancy. That's it. That's ALL.
Think about it. She brought womankind a sense of control over her own body. A sense of freedom and well being. Whoops!
Males possessed of a strong domineering streak did not and STILL DO NOT approve of THAT! Analytic, intelligent, thinking men such as my husband approved strongly, and could see the benefits to themselves, as well. But men who are afraid of the potential that threatens their domination rights due just to their gender quite simply cannot bear women to have any control whatsover over their reproductive histories.
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I remember and see just how many of the polygamist are into no birth control to this day..Very patriarchal.. even that silly Sister Wives program, the women seem to be into babies and more babies. sad really.
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MP how is the back?
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Not my back, but my right leg. https://www.google.com/search?q=sciatic+nerve&biw=800&bih=447&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI06mR1Pr-yAIVgdQmCh3leAjn
The Sciatic Nerve runs from your butt down your leg and into your foot. When it is compressed in the spine, which most certainly IS your back, it is the butt and leg and foot that kill you every step that you try to take.
Two of my children went with me to the pain management doctor yesterday. He has put me on Tramadol, a pain med, and Gabapentin, a seizure med which seems to help Sciatica, and they say right in the literature that they have no idea why this is so. My daughter Pam took Gabapentin when she had Sciatica in her left leg (mine is in the right one) and my daughter Becky took it when she had Shingles. Also, I am to have a second surgical procedure on Tuesday: lumbar nerve root block. I already have an appointment to see a spine surgery doctor on December 2nd if these measures do not fix me. I sure do NOT want to have to have surgery.
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MaryPage I put up with this a couple of years ago - as I understand it, all our nerves are based in our spine that like the cables for the Phone and TV that run through the streets there is a space I did not realize within our spine where all these nerves are like cable bundles and then as a phone cable would branch off to each house so the nerves that affect various parts of our body branch off -
I learned, as we age the area where these nerve 'cables' are running through our spine not only shrinks in size but fills with something like plaque so it is easier to damage nerves - the one that you speak of that does go across the butt, into the hip and down our leg has a twin that will affect our bowel and bladder so you have no control - learning that I thought was helping me see it could be worse.
Anyhow I did learn that nerve damage takes minimum a year to a year and a half to heal - For me I had a back problem with a herniates disk in the lumbar region that I was seeking some relief from a chiropractor who was so busy talking to a friend who came by that he put pressure in the wrong way on my lower spine - did not know at the time what happened - could not walk upright and the pain till finally went to the Spine clinic at Seton Hospital and they took a MRI - the doctor was very good and showed me the nerve damage and how I could tell it was recent and what the old damage was.
He explained how long it took for nerves to heal and gave me some meds to help with the pain and offered a cortisone shot right in the nerve that was damaged - I do not like using cortisone so I declined but then two months later I realized I had a long plane trip to see a grandson graduate who was valedictorian and did not want to miss it - the injection of cortisone is an outpatient procedure that does include spinal anesthesia and not quite an overall numbing but enough that it disorientates you and you cannot drive home.
All the cortisone does, he explained is stop the pain for a few months giving the nerves a chance to heal - and that is the purpose of any pain med for spinal pain - he explained and it made sense, it is not the bones that make up the spine that cause pain it is the nerves that are bundled in the channel in our spine that are damaged or the space between bones that there is just enough tissue left without enough cushion so that those nerves are affected.
He also said do not do any exercise where I twist my body - but do exercises that stretch the back like sitting on the floor and reaching as if diving to touch my toes.
He had a great web site showing all this but some of the insurance companies that some of the patients use objected and the hospital cannot successfully operate by eliminating patients and so a generic youtube was put up, some of which he actually told me contained the worst advise for elders, who most likely are suffering from this shrinking nerve passage.
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Sciatica pain seems to be long lasting.. It was the only time in my motherinlaws life that she consented to a doctor and actualy went into the hospital for treatment..
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Started many years ago with problems in my foot big toe was killing me. Went to fancy blood vessel dr in
Bellevue and she said your in the wrong place I said I figured that out and I was going to my Dr on Friday.She said who is your Dr., Dr Neiman she said you are in the right place.Went in he checked said "the nerves in your feet and legs are going to hell and there is nothing to do for it" he tried gabapentin nothing really nothing. Then he tried Lyrcia saved my life and if I forget the feet let me know I feel so lucky he knew about that medicine.
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Lucky you, Judy, Maybe you can help MaryPage find the right place.
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Thanks, Judy; and yes, Lyrcia is next on the list of meds they will prescribe for me if the ones I am taking now don't do the job we are hoping they will do.
Little by little, I improve. Tomorrow morning I will go off early early to the surgical center once again and have another lumbar nerve root block. Every day is full of hope.
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MP Lyrica latterly saved me the pain from my neuropothy is severe but not with lyrica
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Judy, will that be a FOREVER pain? We are hoping mine can be fixed and I will have no more pain.
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Neuropathy if it is diabetic is generally forever. Cant say I like the list of Christmas books.. mostly romance writers.. even the Evanovich is a bit on the soppy side.
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I agree Steph on the list of Books for Christmas the one that is meaningful is the one that has to do with the business women who helps out a young boy and keeps that relationship for years and years helping him become what we all hope for and wish for any child.
Again, these were simply some of the books published this year and except for that one the others were not deep enough for a discussion and so we decided to keep the discussion to the Adventures of Pinocchio until December 18 and then from the December 19 through the end of the month we pop in to say Hi, Happy Holiday and we will talk about what holiday books we are each reading, what books we gave as gifts, any special book-reading coffee, tea or wine break we arranged for ourselves and to describe any holiday menu and decor in the coffee shop in the bookstore.
It would be nice if it turns out a couple of us are reading the same holiday book and we can chat back and forth about it. And so, the soppy ones can be for those who like a bit of fluff over the holidays - I will be really interested to hear what holiday book published in the past couple of years you choose to read Steph - you may be a guide for those of us who prefer a more meaty book.
I like the Irish Doctor books that Taylor writes but they too are only one step up from fluff - never did get into Evans or what is that female author that writes about a cleric in Appalachia - she is prolific and her books are not just taking place over the holidays but she too has one published just about every holiday season.
Please if anyone comes upon a recently published holiday book with meat on its bones let us know - without parking myself for hours in Barnes and Noble, finding this needle in the haystack of holiday books is daunting.
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My pain is neuropathy and it will only get worse and may travel up my legs .I have NO PAIN with Lyricia and will take it til I die
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Oh, Judy. Tears of sorrow from me that this is so.
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Barb,, truth is I dont generally read themed books on Christmas or holidays, seems to be the only one I liked, was a Charlotte McLeod..It was laugh out loud funny.. hmm, I love Terry Pratchett who was a science fiction writer who satirized everything, maybe I will look and see if he tackled Christmas.. Possibly with Mort... hmm. or the witches.
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Me, too, Steph. We are exactly in sync there. I screamed with laughter over Charlotte McLeod's REST YOU MERRY. Wasn't that the one! I truly don't think anyone could possibly find that book anything but hilarious. Excepting mebbe those who decorate their own homes and lawns with a bazillion lights and so forth. They would probably hate that book.
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McLeon was always funny, although I like the Boston ones the best.
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No Mary Page this cannot be fixed and will not go away. I asked ny DR if I would be in a wheel chair and he said he didn't think so .Without Lyrica I would probably be a addict
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Oh dear Judy - I think you are saying you have nerve damage that is permanent - thank god there is something offering you some relief - they say aging is not for the weak - you help us see the courage it takes to age with body damage.
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Judy, I only met you in person at the bookies south carolina journey, but you are brave and funny and honest. I know that you live with it and keep going ahead.
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So hard. So very hard. Not fair. Oh, the frailties of the human body. I feel such overwhelming empathy.
If you get a chance, and if you have any interest whatsoever in autism, as I know you share that interest with me, Steph, you should watch the movie titled: TEMPLE GRANDIN. Claire Danes plays the lead, and she is beyond amazing.
Temple Grandin is now a grown woman with a Ph.D. She is fully autistic. She has written books on the subject.
The movie is currently available ON DEMAND through the HBO channel movie listing. It is a true story, nothing about it is made up.
http://www.templegrandin.com/
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Dont do HBO for a variety of reasons, but will put it on a list to check on net flix, etc and look for in specialty areas.. She is a different type of autism , since my grandson is Asburgers and communication for him is not easy under any circumstances, but he is loving the guitar lessons.
So the Supreme Court is going to look at the Texas rules for abortion clinics.. Hm.. now if they were honest and not using their religion or other reasons and just look at it,but some of them make up their own rules.
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I believe Temple Grandin has an Asperger's diagnosis as well, and all, but I believe also that each individual is different from each other and none of them are identical cookie cutter replicas of one another. It is all about the wiring in the brain, and has been such a calamity over the centuries in that we have treated these often highly gifted children and adults as feeble minded misfits who should be institutionalized and forgotten. Good grief, we might not as yet have the computer were it not for one of these: Alan Turing!
Well, Temple's mother refused to hide her away in an institution.
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I have missed the beginning of this discussion, so please excuse me if I'm repeating something or saying the wrong thing, but I was just this morning talking to a friend who was diagnosed with Asperger's a few years ago. We were talking about how this seems to be the flavour of the month in the UK, with Asperger's diagnoses being given out right, left and centre. I do not for one moment wish to suggest that people with severe Asperger's don't have it, but many counsellors here (some of whose qualifications are at best questionable) are starting to apply it to everyone they see. My friend has now been told by an NHS psychiatrist that she does not and did not have Asperger's and that the (private) counsellor who told her she did didn't even do the tests right.
I feel that in this country at least there is a growing tendency to label everyone who does not conform to a false 'norm' dictated by the loudest people. If you don't like parties and you find large groups hard work, there's something wrong with you - whereas when i was a teenager, it was just accepted that some people were more sociable than others. If a person is happy in their own skin, surely that is all that is important? I so agree with you MaryPage that everyone is an individual with their own ways of doing things - forcing everyone to fit a stereotype causes far more problems than accepting that we are all different would.
There is another good film, I think it is called Adam, about a boy who has Asperger's but ends up working at CERN in Switzerland.
I also recall seeing a documentary about a young maths genius who was offered tuition at Oxford at a young age (as he was totally bored at school). His mother asked the head of department if her son would be OK considering he was Aspergic. 'Oh no problem' said the tutor. 'they all are in this department'.
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Whatever happened to the lovable, endearing 'norm' of English eccentricity?
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Quite - that's exactly what I think. So boring when everyone's the same.
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I think being different is at odds with today's desire to eliminate 'risk' - being different means you are not living up to today's standards and you are not an accepted part of the group that means you are vulnerable on many fronts.
I copied this from an article written the day after the Paris attacks - it resonated with me on so many levels and it seems to fit what y'all are saying.
“Zero risk” doesn’t exist.
Our so-called “modern” society believes in the principle of “zero.” Zero imperfections, zero stock, zero error, zero risk!
It’s a huge farce, it doesn’t exist, despite all the speeches that you might hear in medicine, politics, and especially, in management! Life is all about risk!
It’s about knowing how to accept it; “risk management” is nothing more than a day to day learning process, often painful, and always delicate. There is no truly comprehensive insurance!
Faced with each decision, personal or professional, we are alone as individuals with our choices and our doubts, and these attacks cruelly remind us of this! That’s what being human is about.
Accepting vulnerability is a strength.
Our society favors strength, commitment, competition, power, ostentation…“values” that only lead to insult, to war, and to these attacks that claim to be demonstrations of strength, and that seek to escalate violence.
These attacks show us that we are vulnerable. Don’t deny it! Vulnerability isn’t an admission of weakness! We can turn it into a strength! We must turn it into a strength! It’s by changing the hierarchy of values that we will steer the world toward change.
Of course it is depressing to deal with someone who is afraid of their vulnerability, who then typically reacts by putting down anyone that shows a sign of what they consider weakness.
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Am the type of person who when is told " the nerves in your feet are going to hell and there is othing y5can do about it " I say OK and just do it whatever THAT is.
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So true Barb.
And I feel that this risk-averseness (probably not a word, but I will take that chance :D) is driven to a large extent by money. We mustn't take any risks because if we do and something 'goes wrong' someone will be advised to sue us, and our insurers will say our cover is invalidated because we didn't take all possible precautions. (And I say that as a former lawyer.)
I know that doesn't extrapolate directly to 'eccentric' or 'unusual' behaviour, but I can't help feeling it's all connected. Society, as you say, is scared of difference. I believe we should celebrate difference. Unless someone is hurting someone else, why shouldn't they do their own thing?
One of the things I like about my younger daughter's Steiner School is that it doesn't value conformity above all else. I think that is a good example to set, even if its wilder aspects do drive me nuts at times (eg - 'if I ordered a turkey from the farm for Christmas, could you deliver it before 25th December?' - 'hmm... maybe' :-) )
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Having a grandson with definite Asburgers.. He is different indeed.. I am not particularly a social person and have an older son who is an engineer and simply dislikes crowds of any type,, does not do chatting, but is a healthy happy individual, so I have seen the difference. My grandson is simply bewildered, when a teacher asks about friends.. Hmm, he has some, but they all game players on line, never in person. Paying attention in school.. I think he tries, but his attention span except for games is close to zero. Talking,,, why would he want to.. looking at people.,. again not something that occurs. Touching anyone makes him truly uncomfortable.. He is subject to bullying because they aggressive boys know he hates being touched.. So from my point, Asburgers is out there,, and you can see it clearly..
Some Asburgers have an affinity and there is a theory that they are much brighter than others, but that tends to be very skewed, since they are generally bright in one small area.
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We need to teach ourselves and our families to identify with one another and to have empathy with one another and to find our differences things of interest to us and not things that threaten us.
There is a poison afflicting the minds of some overly excited young men bubbling over and wanting to kill, kill, kill. We all know that. We all recognize that. Why can we not analyze the threat accurately and correctly and stop trying to label whole religions or countries or races as guilty? Why can we not conduct ourselves as sane adults and simply do all we can to protect ourselves in sensible ways without being ugly about all outsiders? The Stranger may be the Christ Child in disguise; remember that story told us when we were children? The principle is the thing. Goodness offered a stranger will come full circle. Your own children may cross this planet and find themselves in need of refuge. You would want those differently garbed and perhaps differently colored arms to reach out to your children and pull them in to safety and offer them sustenance and shelter until the danger passes.
Yes, right here in the United States in the 20th century we labeled children who marched to a different drummer feeble-minded imbeciles whose behavior should not be an affliction to the public at large OR their own families, but should be locked away in institutions until they mercifully died. We considered them unbearably ugly to behold, and so we encouraged their families to shove them out of the family circle and forget them forever. We are taught that different is not to be desired. Different is UGLY, and ugly is hateful.
I think we all need to pause and consider redefining ugly.
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well said.. My older son did not speak until he was three, not a sound.. so we were sent off for people to figure out what was happening. The state paid for it and it was quite interesting.. He started speaking spontaneously and we never knew just why, but he was quite bright and by 4 decided to read and taught himself.. But and this was scary.. he was in a group during the testing of 8 children.. They all had a variety of problems.. 5 of the 8 ended up being sent to institutions of various types.. 2 of them had parents with money and they ended up in high end places and that helped.. the other 3, one was mine, and the other two had various deafness.. They were sent off to the deaf school at 5.. Whew..I ended up with the only one that just did not have a problem, other than not having anything to say.
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MJ how is your sciatica? Can't spell
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Spelling perfect. Sciatica ghastly, but only half as bad as it was, so I guess I'm getting better. Walking still a painful ordeal, but I can sleep now.
I am not so out of it that I don't feel outrage over the shootings at Planned Parenthood in Colorado. Why is it the radical right can make a saint out of Ronald Reagan (as if!) and yet we cannot even make household names out of the martyrs Dr. David Gunn, Dr. John Britton, James Barrett, Shannon Lowney, Lee Ann Nichols, Robert Sanderson, Dr. Barnett Slepian, Dr. George Tiller and others? They all died from Christian Terrorism, but, apparently because the public at large does not want to admit that that is what it is, all is covered up as speedily as possible, while Islamic Terrorism is drummed into our minds on a daily basis.
Dr. Tiller was in church when he was shot to death! Talk about values! Our are terribly, terribly skewed.
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Seems to be another human who has been on the edge of sanity for a long long time.
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Why don't they call it "domestic terrorism"? That's what it is!
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MP glad that your sciatica is better. Went to the Dr last week and he upped the dosage. Here I thought I was taking so much turns out it comes in much stronger pills.
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Sounds like my tummy when it burns.. Doc said.. take double Nexium, since when they go over the counter, they halve the dosage.. Interesting fact to me,
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I have heard it called 'home-grown terrorism'. But I have not heard a motive given in this case? Neighbors said he wasn't particularly religious or political. Planned Parenthood said they weren't even sure they were the target, since no staff were hurt.
This administration has repeatedly stated they were more concerned with home-grown terrorism and have identified the people/groups they believe to be the greatest danger to the country as members of the Tea Party, retired and returning veterans and evangelical Christians. I haven't heard what has happened with the law-suit a recruit filed when he was 'trained' in recognizing and combatting terrorism and the group was told that if any of the recruits in any way supported any evangelical Christian church or organization they would be put on a watch list as well.
Interestingly, Swassey, the police officer killed, was an elder in his church and vehemently opposed to abortion - yet he ran in to protect and defend people engaged in an activity he personally detested - and gave his life for them. That is someone who is Pro-Life. That is a Christian, a true believer. I know of no Christian who would EVER advocate or condone harm to someone with whom they disagreed.
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I agree if you are a true christian, but there are so many who have their own version of christianity that seems to involve a lot of.. no no no..
Killing anyone is wrong..there is no right to it.. but then I am a quaker.
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Most Muslims feel it is a sin against God to kill another Muslim. The terrorists among them do not feel this way.
The Christian faith I was raised in is most definitely against killing. We truly had Thou Shalt Not Kill drummed into us.
But I do notice that the news reports have stated that there are websites with photos and addresses and phone numbers of doctors and nurses involved in providing abortions And these websites, plus the killers who have been apprehended, make all sorts of religious statements, including God wants this, God told me to do it, and that they have been Born Again and thus Saved. One cannot help but conclude that a small number of Christians believe killing abortion providers is a Good Thing, just as a small number of Muslims feel killing other Muslims who do not agree with them is a Good Thing.
I have listened to Cecile Richards response, plus that of the woman who is the head of Planned Parenthood in Colorado and a number of others associated with Planned Parenthood. I have not heard a single one of them suggest they may not have been the target of this attack.
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After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.
In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”
Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”
Genesis 38:24 Tamar's pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at that time. This was positive proof that she had been sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law Judah ordered that she be burned alive for her crime.
If Tamar's twin fetuses had been considered to be human beings, one would have expected her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action. (Judah later changed his mind when he found out that he was the man responsible for Tamar's pregnancy.)
In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense.
According to the bible, destroying a living fetus does not equate to killing a living human being even though the fetus has the potential of becoming a human being. One can not kill something that has not been born and taken a breath. This means that a stillborn would not be considered a human being either. Of course, every living sperm has the potential of becoming a human being although not one in a million will make it; the rest are aborted.
God has decreed, for one reason or another, that at least one-third of all pregnancies shall be terminated by a spontaneous abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy and that a number will be terminated after the first trimester. It would appear that God does not have any more regard for the loss of a fetus than he does for the loss of a placenta or a foreskin despite the fact that these were living tissue as the result of conception.
In 1973, Wallie Amos ‘W. A.’ Criswell, President of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1968 to 1970:
"I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."
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Excellent, Barbara!
I have no memory of having read that previously.
As the mother of many children, and having had one born dead and several miscarriages, as well, I have always comforted myself with the thought that a person is not a person until they are born into this world and take breath. Every one to their own personal and private belief system say I, but don't shove YOUR belief into MY life and I won't insist upon shoving mine into yours.
Agreed?
I won't make you have an abortion. Never, ever would I do that. Just don't plan on keeping me or mine from having one if that is our choice. As for all that taxpayer dollars nonsense, hey, my taxpayer dollars are going to pay salaries and perks, which include a myriad of trips to see foreign countries, for a host of congresspeople who make me want to throw up, not to mention all of the machinery of war and a lot of other crap that flies in the face of all that I believe in.
So let us agree to try to send folks to Congress who will actually earn their living serving the American Taxpayers and stop trying to obstruct women from exercising their individual rights under our Constitution in choosing what health care will be readily available to them.
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The latest shootings in California is horrible, but even worse is the fact that a woman was an active shooter. First time I know of..
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How 'bout Bonnie of Bonnie & Clyde? She was a real person.
I read in this mornings newspaper that Robert Dear, he of the Planned Parenthood shootings, was a religious zealot. Apparently this comes from one of his ex wives. They also say he put glue on the locks of a Charleston, South Carolina clinic years ago.
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what is it with these zealots and their ex's - haha - oh please you gotta laugh today to get some balance back - but do we now examine like the airport security process all those who have an ex and who attend church - can you just see it - two entrances to each place of worship - one with the security setup if you have an ex and the other for "normal" folks to enter the church ::) ;) ;D
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It becomes more and more obvious that just one single adjustment to our culture is not going to solve this problem.
Obviously we DO need to work on the Mental Health aspect.
Obviously we do need to fix stupid gaps in the system we have in place for the buying, selling, and licensing of guns.
Obviously we have to address the constant barrage of outrageous violence as portrayed on our televisions and in our movie houses. It is mostly children who eat this stuff up, and we should stop feeding it to them and instead teach them more humane and dignified standards of living their lives.
We have to start pointing with alarm at the numbers of human beings in our planet wide population and tell the truth about the fact that we do not now have enough resources to give these numbers the things needed for them to lead decent lives. We need to admit that Al Gore's research was correct and start selling the Chinese ideal of one child per couple as THE IDEAL for all. We have to pull out the old Rat City experiment from back when I was a child, which showed the small population all happy and contented and full of concern for one another, all the way up to the group becoming too large for their resources to sustain and they became violent murderers and cannibals.
We have to start teaching all children in all populations that they must not view life through the rose colored glasses of how they BELIEVE life should be, but through the clear glass of how it actually IS, and be totally truthful about how it is and demand the truth from our leadership. Then, together and with all hope for one another, we must try to solve our myriad problems before we and the ways we persist in clinging to cause the total extinction of homo sapiens.
Have you SEEN those films on the evening news of how the population cannot BREATHE in Chinese cities? It is terrifying. But we cannot ignore this. It is REAL.
Coming at us soon, just as surely as the storms blasting away in our heartland, will be the total collapse of our insurance system. How long can insurance companies afford to replace so many homes per year destroyed by flood, fire, and storms?
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My thought MaryPage is it is about HOPE - hope is no longer active in most who used to have decent paying jobs that allowed them to bring up a family, attend school functions, take the children out for supper now and then or to a movie and believe they would be better off the next year or at least the year after that - Middle Class values that have gone by the boards with the loss of dollars available to the many -
We know it and folks are angry so that every thing pisses them off - there is a general low key anger where ever you go these days - and those who are on the edge for a variety of reasons blow - it is easier to get hysterical over what others are or are not doing then fix what you believe is your own problem that you believe is unfixable -
It is easy to stop reining in your anger when you see others on TV including, sorry to say but it is true the ones you depended on to care about you - yes, the police - granted there are many good guys but the news is filled with the bad guys and they really have spoiled the reputation of them all so that everyone feels they are entitled to let their anger lose and that now they need to take care of themselves, so they get their own protection and they need to control everything around them to be sure they can live on in this maze of uncontrollable unfairness which leaves them feeling hopeless that life will be better.
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Another thing I do not understand is why we walk wide circles around certain subjects in this country and never step up and hit the nail on the head.
For instance, Donald Trump is calling out President Obama for not calling these terrorist attacks "Islamic Terrorism." While what the President is trying to do is to keep hot headed citizens from attacking our thousands of perfectly innocent mosques full of totally innocent American citizens. If we had been attacked by only Presbyterians, Trump would scream bloody blue murder if the president called it Presbyterian Terrorism! He would! In a heart beat! He would claim Obama was attempting to rile up the public against ALL Presbyterians!
It all depends, always has and apparently always will, on whose ox is being gored. I think our President needs to do all he can to protect innocent Americans, and in order to be fair to our over eight million Muslims, he needs to use language that will not inflame. That's what good leaders attempt to do!
And I think our Media needs to start putting this information in their news reporting. If they are going to show clips of Trump saying these things, then they need to report on WHY the President is being careful with his rhetoric.
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Totally agree, MaryPage - but even our BBC is now very biased in much of its reporting. The slating it is giving to the new Labour leader - the inestimable (IMO) Jeremy Corbyn - is atrocious. I couldn't bring myself to listen to too much debate on Radio 4 re whether or not 'we' should bomb Syria, but those who did say Corbyn was talked over, interrupted and ridiculed whereas Cameron & co were given free rein.
If the BBC is doing this, I dread to think what Fox News is saying.
Rosemary
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I am disappointed to hear that, Rosemary, as I have long admired the news services in Great Britain. Truth to tell, I have actually learned stuff from your papers that we were not reading in our own!
But then again, back in the thirties we knew all about Mrs. Simpson and the King, and mum was the word in the British press!
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I have heard many people say that the most reliable news source now is actually Al Jazeera (English version) (we can get it on cable). My daughter knows someone (British) who works for it (who studied Arabic at university). The station is becoming much more highly esteemed than the BBC. I haven't watched it yet myself but I think I'll give it a try.
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I am not happy with myself, but I now am beginning to want more oversight. The woman seems to have been the person who was slanted and possibly was before she came. We need better oversight.. Just because a US citizen wanted to marry her does not make her a suitable person to come to the US.. Think of that poor baby.. Years from now finding out what her parents did.. Even the male shooters sisters says she did not have anything to do with anyone,, only spoke URDU... and did not even answer her door.. Hmm.. There needs to be some sort of barricade for when our citizens become radicalized.. No idea what or how.. but I am growing uncomfortable about what is happening.
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What is more, his family members say they NEVER saw her face! That photo must have come from her passport.
Yes, it is early days yet, but MSNBC has been inundated with information coming in by the minute. Thus far the story would seem to be that she was already radicalized. My bet is that it was her assignment from ISIS to hook up with an American Muslim. He went over to Saudi Arabia both to meet her and to do his religious duty, and became caught up in her fervor. No doubt she courted him and got him to do everything her way. When you look at her house, such a nightmare of a mess, you can picture that her mind was totally consumed with the excitement of jihad.
We have over 8 million Muslims in this country. There are nearly 2 billion in this world. There are not enough employees in the entire government to track them all.
Therefore, we have to keep excellent relations with our own Muslim community and inspire them, with friendship and love and INCLUSION, to help us with information about dangerous behavior before it turns into mass killings.
And we have to, have to, have to pass that bill that makes it law to have a background check on ANYONE buying a gun from ANY source in this country. As of this moment, if you go into a gun store to purchase a gun or guns, that background check is made. But if you have a gun or guns you wish to sell, you can run an ad for them in any way you wish and sell to whomsoever shows up with the cash and NO CHECK IS REQUIRED. This loophole is killing innocent people and is the broad open highway to killing more.
Rachel Maddow said last night that there is a huge slice of America believing some websites that say Sandy Hook and all the others and this latest mass shooting in California never happened. Those First Graders never died. It is all a hoax perpetrated by those who want stricter gun laws. The news shots we have all seen have been made by actors. No one died. They are telling everyone not to fall for this government's propaganda!
UNbelievable! What a dizzy, dizzy planet! What a hopeless species I am one of!
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Wonder what the conspiracy theorists say to explain away all the many funerals. Did the Sandy Hook school get torn down and rebuilt as another expense to prop up the conspiracy?
Why is it a person's name can be on a "no fly" list and no airline will carry them, but that same person can buy as many guns as they like?
There is a bill that says no one can be on a no fly list and buy a gun. But the NRA opposes it, so, of course, it does not get passed.
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I just saw this morning that the friend of his who had supplied two guns checked himself into a mental Institution the day of the murders. Now thats totally weird, but I must confess that I think he got snowed by a woman, who was sent to do just that.
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the photos of her face sure shows a determined look - but then are we so easily drawn in - I guess nothing new since Mata Hari, the WWI Courtesan and Spy
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Our entire congress seemed to be sheep.. Why oh why would you want someone on the do not fly list to be able to buy a gun.. Sigh.
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They asked that very question over and over on the Sunday morning talk shows, and the official GOP response is: "Because sometimes there are names on the no fly list that are mistakes, or are innocent persons with the same names."
It gets so tiresome. Every time a new question comes up, Republicans get the word as to what their line is, and over and over and still over again you hear that line repeated verbatim on every network and every cable channel. Everyone who has a newstalk kind of show asks it, and every Republican gives the exact same answer. They remind me of robots instead of human beings.
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It occurs to me this morning for the very first time that the glorious right I received upon my birth as a citizen of these United States, the franchise, my understood right to cast a vote once I achieved a certain age and which all of my life I have considered first among rights, is not considered anywhere near first by followers of the GOP. Indeed, they are quick and spiffy about passing every type of law to put yet another obstacle in the path of Democrats to vote.
Nope, their Number One most cherished right is the right to own, carry and use as many guns as they please. Let there be no obstacle in their pathway to purchase an instrument of Death, while they come up with every diabolical trick they can invent to keep the opposition from the voting booth!
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I am now convinced that Donald Trump will say anything to get in the news.. and that his followers seem to be back in WWII and putting the japanese in camps, which was terribly wrong, but understandable at the time of the attack.
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I often wonder why it was just race that made the difference. I mean, we had millions more of German descent in this country than we had of Japanese descent, yet we did nothing about locking them up in detention camps. Ignorance.
As for Donald Trump, I have a mental picture of a bear baiting or a dog fight or a cock fight every time I hear him now. Especially early in the morning when he goes on the Morning Joe show on MSNBC by telephone. Donald Trump is imploding. He has climbed the mountain and claimed it as King of The Mountain, but now the pack of wolves have surrounded him and are relentlessly goading him into the next and the next and the next ridiculous statement that make him out to be a perfect fool, and not a king at all. He is about to go down in total disgrace and be left in the dust with a BUFFOON sign on him. As an individual, he is never going to understand what happened to him (too much hubris pumped up by too few facts), and it makes me sick to my stomach to see a man, ANY man, brought down in this way even though it is of his own doing. He has become a daily cartoon show, albeit an ugly one. But then again, when you stop and think of the history of cartoons, they have always relentlessly revealed the nastier instincts of the human race.
I wish at this point we would just walk away and leave him alone to flounder about until he catches on and goes home and shuts the door, and, one hopes, his big mouth.
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German nationals were automatically classified as "enemy aliens". I know because the uncle of my best friend Nancy Klug was taken away in handcuffs only because he had emigrated a few years before - according to Wikipedia, during WWII, the United States detained a total of 11,507 ethnic Germans, out of 1,237,000 of those identified as not being US citizens and of German birth.
The US detained only a few who were Italian nationals, (not US citizens, or long-term US residents). Representing the axis powers, there were some 695,000 Italian 'nationals' in the United States. Taken into custody, along coastal areas were 1881 Italian nationals detained under wartime restrictions.
If you remember we were whipped up in fear about Asians and we were urged to burn and trash any piece of ceramics we owned that said made in either Japan or China. I also remember the fear was urged reminding us how easily what happened in Pearl Harbor could happen to cities on the west coast.
I think that was the difference why German's or Italians were not detained in similar numbers - neither attacked US soil. However, for sure German's were detained as was merchant seamen either German or Italian trapped in US ports by the outbreak of war. At the time my father had something to do with shipping and I remember him coming home and telling us of the FBI round up of Germans aboard ships unloading cargo on the docks.
What is different - where Japanese interns were compensated and received an apology from the United States, German and Italians received an apology but no compensation.
However, prior to the outbreak of WWII Japanese adults were not allowed to become citizens, only children born in the US of Japanese heritage where as, this did not hold true for Germans or Italians. Another tidbit Italians had been urged to become citizens through some process that was as simple as visiting an office and not having to study or take a test.
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Trump's diatribe yesterday was very scary. He is sounding just like Joseph McCarthy, but with a much bigger bully pulpit. His disparaging of Pres Obama concerns me that some nut, like the guy at the PP site will feel the need to act on his words against Obama. After about 15 minutes of listening to him rant about everyone, I turned it off. He was doing nothing but spewing hate for everyone.
Some retired military man on Fox called Obama a "p---y" after his oval office speech, not only offensive to anyone holding the position of president, but to all women. And one of the young women on Fox said Obama's speech "sounded like he didn't give a sh--," stopping just short of finishing the word. I don't consider myself a prude by any means, but I can't believe I'm hearing adults saying these kinds of things. First of all it speaks to their lack of an intelligent vocabulary, let alone their disrespect for the audience and our government.
It is so depressing that we can't have an intelligent discussion around a presidential campaign and around this important issue of terror. Can you imagine Eisenhower and Stevenson having such a conversation!?! I certainly don't want to go back to the fifties for many, many reasons, but for adult, clean, intelligence, I could go for that.
Oh, Trump also said "Hillary can't be president, she's not strong, she doesn't have stamina......" Is that both a sexist and ageist statement? Nobody's talking about that.
Jean
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Tom Brokaw gave an impassioned piece about Trump's proposal tonight. I would have sobbed if my eyes could still make tears. I hope you all heard it, and that if you did not you will hear it later, as it is bound to be repeated and repeated for years to come. It was truly beautiful and will stir you no end.
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My mother was adopted and her adoptive mother was German born from the Black Forest area.She had brothers who h ad children and I know how she grieved during the way as to what happend to them. After the war, she tried to find them, butnever found a clue as to what had happened to them.
Trump has passed any sort of rational behavior down.. I agree that he is way scary, he sounds so much like Joe.. and people cheer him on. The arguement being that most of them as the ones who hate the current behavior in the US. I am convinced that others are getting more and more irrational about Obama because of the atmosphere. I am not altogether happy with him, but do understand his position mostly.
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The world reaction is incredible. First time, insofar as I can remember, that there has been such a chorus of protest against a candidate for the presidency of the U.S.
I heard a British MP this morning state in no uncertain language that Trump is a Liar. They say he is telling outright lies about the state of things in London.
The Head of Scotland Yard, and they did say this was for the first time in HISTORY that that person has made a public political statement, said for public consumption that Trump is a Liar and Lying about many things.
Other voices are speaking up from many points around the globe. I note that his fellow Republicans are calling him a Nazi and pointing out that this is who his followers are and that the Neo-Nazi websites having been cheering for him for ages now. I had never thought of him in that way, but now I can see the fit. They are saying white undereducated males and their spouses who are full of Big Talk about taking the most simplistic Bully Boy approach to any problem without so much as a moment's thought as to ramifications and consequences.
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I was right! The remarkable Tom Brokaw piece is being repeated on MSNBC today.
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Brokow's segment can be seen here
http://www.mediamatters.org
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Thanks or posting that, Mable. Another scary candidate is Senator Cruz, but he is more clever than Trump in disguising his beliefs. IMO
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The reaction against Trump's latest has been virtually unanimous here in the UK (and that's saying something). It is total rubbish to say that our police have lost control or are scared of parts of London - they aren't, and they are almost all unarmed too.
I do so hope that Aberdeen Asset Management will take the Open (golf) away from his totally horrible golf resort, for which he flattened and ruined an area of natural beauty just north of Aberdeen and evicted people from homes they had lived in for many years just because he couldn't conceive of not having his own way. Many city councillors opposed his planning applications but unfortunately the utterly heinous local evening paper tore them to pieces and went on and on and on about how many jobs this thing would create, so in the end, predictably, his money spoke.
Robert Gordon's University in Aberdeen is considering taking away the honorary degree that it for some unknown reason awarded him some time ago.
Horrible, dangerous man - I thought UKIP were bad enough, but even Nigel Farage has come out against Trump. As Steph says, he appeals to the bully in people who are scared and think they can shout their way out of anything. I hope Muslims are encouraged to see how people the world over have criticised Trump now.
I see that when the BBC mentioned that Trump was being compared to Voldemort, JK Rowling intervened to say that wasn't fair, as he's a hundred times worse than the One Who Must Not be Named.
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And yet, it is Cruz who is winning in Iowa - this is turning into such a nightmare I am having a difficult time giving Advent my attention - started out in good fashion and now I cannot even settle down - between this political scene and all the put down of women and learning how much mis-information we are fed with the whole thing on the CIA and the Kennedy death plus, we have locally a rash of folks who have found our neighborhood and are stealing Christmas decorations and ransacking vehicles in driveways down to not even being able to trust our food -
Every other week it seems I buy, not even processed or canned but supposedly fresh and I end up living in my bathroom for a day so that the only food that appears safe is what I buy at greater cost, local at the Farmer's Market -
I guess that was a litany but I am stove in by all of this and do not even know what to do to pick my self up - I should get out and walk but I feel like a rebellious 3 year old and do not even want to change to get out of the house. I'm eating the strangest combination of foods because I do not feel like getting out to the store - I shut the TV off except for PBS weeks ago and it still creeps in. grrrrr -
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(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11091564_710346209070315_2570034402078923072_n.jpg?oh=6c0c64795b538929cd8a80836721bd16&oe=56E623DD)
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She was a brave and adventurous woman.. and lovely as well..
Seems that Israel does not want Trump just now.. Finally.. someone who says no.. hmm. I fear for our nation.. I agree that Cruz says horrid things, but quietly and his nomination will be bad for women, as would Ryan.
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(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/hope-christmas-sign-3630142.jpg)
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I am so happy that in this wonderful season you hold so much Hope in your heart, Barbara. That is a beautiful thing.
My despair is rather total, though I do take a turn in my mind and look at my precious family and enjoy their lives vicariously from my old lady boudoir chair surrounded by all of the amenities. I often think back over three quarters of a century to my great grandmother sitting in her comfy chair with a card table always in front of her and playing endless games of solitaire. I can still hear her shuffling those cards and remember playing a game of double solitaire she taught me. It was called Russian Bank, and we had a lot of fun playing it together. And I wonder what she would think of my playing solitaire where I never have to shuffle and the cards never grown worn and I am never in need of a new pack and when I have finally won, the cards just fly to their little piles with no work on my part. She would be bedazzled. So much is different, and so much is just the same. We come into this world, and we leave it. What is better and what is worse?
I fear we have lost dignity, courtesy, empathy, responsibility, sense of duty, decency, honesty, integrity. Grown up men do not exhibit maturity any more, but foolish, childish remarks that are harmful to themselves, their colleagues, their families and neighbors, their communities, and their countries. No one seems to stop and THINK about consequences. I see wise men, I hear wise men. But their voices are lonely in the wild winds tearing across our mountains and plains from sea to shining sea. They are lost in the rush to rant louder than the taunting masses with messages to tear down the beautiful fabric this nation was built of and become a humongous dreadnaught of the Military Industrial Machine Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us of in his parting words to us. Boy, that President had a prescience we could wish all of our leaders had today. He was a patriot and a statesman. I pray fiercely that we may be sent more of the same.
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Eisenhauer was an excellent general and President.. He looked ahead and truly felt responsible. I think that responsibility is what is missing in the current crop of politicians.
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I have just heard an excellent interview on BBC Radio 4 Women's Hour with Annie Lennox. She is a singer - formerly half of The Eurythmics - who came originally from a very poor background in Aberdeen. She is such a feminist icon, but very modest and quiet. She was talking about how her life changed when she had her daughters (she's 61 now) and music was no longer her sole obsession. She also talked about travelling to third world countries with Comic Relief and seeing with her own eyes the daily struggles of women to gain their basic human rights.
She said that she is still (as she said of herself years ago) 'despairing and morose - who wouldn't be on this planet with the outrageous things that happen, the cruelty and injustice?' but that she just keeps on keeping on and trying to do a bit of good.
She also spoke about one of her most famous songs, 'Sisters are doing it for themselves' - when she wrote it, she said to her then partner Dave Stewart 'Where do you fit in to this?' - he ended up with the guitar solo in the middle :) She is not at all anti-men, 'I believe that men are very important to partner with us, shoulder to shoulder. I think men can be feminists and some are.'
You might be able to listen to this on BBC i-player or via their website if you are interested.
Rosemary
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Sounds wonderful, Rosemary, and just my philosophy and experience. I was married to a feminist; I mean, he was totally so. And he promoted women as much as he could.
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There is a new book out titled THE DEATH OF CANCER by Vincent T. DeVita, Jr.
An extensive review appears in the December 14th issue of The New Yorker under the title TOUGH MEDICINE by Malcolm Gladwell.
This is the New Yorker with the cover of a young couple gaily filling up their wire grocery basket with guns and grenades.
I am hoping the entire medical community and the world reads this article, as it confirms what I have been suspecting for some time now. All of my gut instincts have been screaming it at me that the fight to cure cancer has lost out to the dominant instinct to make tons of money in the business of treating cancer.
Now here is a highly qualified insider reporting that it has, indeed.
One wonders where all of the finer values of Life have disappeared. Money Rules. It tastes so bitter to the inner spirit. Nevertheless, I have to highly recommend this review and, based upon this review, this book to each and all of you.
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Big Money has reared its ugly head into pharma.. I cannot believe the things that are happening in the world of generic meds.. Our congress is too involved with fearing and hating women to notice, but we truly need to regulate medicines..
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I see the medical field nothing but a money trap for the last couple of years - had my eyes done separately - the one about 4 or maybe 5 years ago - used Medicare - total cost $60 and a few visits where I paid over and above the cost of a visit $28 - everything included as it was done in the local hospital - this time, last Spring the same doctor who was now with a different group - they had their own clinic and their own supposedly rented space for surgery - it was like the Walmart of cataract removal with one after another doing 15 to 20 patients one after the other -
Each aspect of the work was priced separately much of it avoiding Medicare including paying for all meds before and after - paying for the lens - on and on, cost me $3000 plus $59 for each visit above what Medicare pays and every visit they try to get me to sign up for another test that i know is part of the usually testing that is basic - so far I was able to allude them by saying no and this time they insisted - all it is is measuring your peripheral vision that they want to charge me $120 in addition that is again part of the testing - I am not going to go back and go to the group of doctors where she quit -
I do not know if they also have increased using all the gimmicks but somehow I trust them more - since I do have a problem with my one eye I will need further work but not with her any longer only because of what they did to get all this money from non suspecting folks - one guy was ranting and raving about not learning in advance the cost and not having it - he was made to appear like a crazy =- he wasn't - if my son was not with me I would have also been a basket case.
a few year ago I had a similar experience with a so called inhouse testing lab - filthy and she never did the tests I was to pay for - I squawked and did not go back - was able to see a Dr when I visited my daughter and now do not regularly see a doctor - all this is utter nonsense - I did see a specialist 2 years ago for my back and had a good experience but when I went to a GP it was the same with the exray center not doing the exray because I was on Medicare - you have to know how to treat yourself and know your illness or else you are putty in their greedy hands. A few hundred OK but this is thousands...
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The scariest thing about this book is that it is not written by an investigative reporter or a scare monger. Not that I do not treasure the good that our investigative reporters do, sometimes losing their lives going after the Truth.
No, this book has been the life work of one of the most prestigious cancer doctors on the planet. He has headed up the MOST famous and highly praised cancer hospitals. No voice from any direction can speak up and attack his qualifications. If he does not know whereof he speaks, no one does.
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I see the medical field as nothing but a money trap for the last couple of years - had my eyes done separately - the one about 4 or maybe 5 years ago - used Medicare - total cost $60 and a few visits where I paid over and above the cost of a visit $28 - everything included as it was done in the local hospital - this time, last Spring the same doctor who was now with a different group - they had their own clinic and their own supposedly rented space for surgery - it was like the Walmart of cataract removal with one after another doing 15 to 20 patients one after the other -
Each aspect of the work was priced separately much of it avoiding Medicare including paying for all meds before and after - paying for the lens - on and on, cost me $3000 plus $59 for each visit above what Medicare pays and every visit they try to get me to sign up for another test that I know is part of the usually testing that is basic - so far I was able to allude them by saying no and this time they insisted - all it is is measuring your peripheral vision that they want to charge me $120 in addition that is again part of the testing - I am not going to go back and go to the group of doctors where she quit -
I do not know if they also have increased using all the gimmicks but somehow I trust them more - since I do have a problem with my one eye I will need further work but not with her any longer only because of what they did to get all this money from non suspecting folks - one guy was ranting and raving about not learning in advance the cost and not having it - he was made to appear like a crazy - he wasn't - if my son was not with me I would have also been a basket case.
a few year ago I had a similar experience with a so called inhouse testing lab - filthy and she never did the tests I was to pay for - I squawked and did not go back - was able to see a Dr when I visited my daughter and now do not regularly see a doctor - all this is utter nonsense - I did see a specialist 2 years ago for my back and had a good experience but when I went to a GP it was the same with the exray center not doing the exray because I was on Medicare - you have to know how to treat yourself and know your illness or else you are putty in their greedy hands. A few hundred OK but this is thousands...
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I have a wonderful general practitioner and go twice a year for blood work and general questions. She takes the medicare and medigap assignment so no charge to me. She is honest... and straightforward. I consider myself very lucky indeed. She always believes in trying natural meds first and it makes me trust her even more. I know.. I am lucky
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Recently, I went to my GP of 35 years to see about a possible fungus under a fingernail. When the nurse (also long-time) took me into the examining room, she began taking my blood pressure and checking my temperature and blood oxygen level (I declined being weighed!). I asked her why all these were necessary when I only needed my fingernail checked and she said, "Medicare requires it every time." What a waste!
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Now I am curious as to whether or not what she told you was correct information!
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Could be it was correct if the GP was collecting from Medicare on more than one area of payback - which would allow him to keep his prices within the pocketbook of his patients by getting more return from Medicare however, it means he would have to satisfy another addition set of criteria to be able to collect.
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We have the opposite in that getting the GPs to do any tests at all is like pulling teeth. I was recently advised (by the hospital) to have a repeat cholesterol test - went into GPs to make an appointment and got the complete 3rd degree from the scary receptionist - she finally caved in and made an appointment for me, but only when she'd checked my records, read the hospital's request, and couldn't think of any other way out of it.
I know the NHS is a very good thing, but it's a bit frustrating when we are forever reading that we should get regular checks on things like blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar, etc, yet the chances of getting any of those done by just approaching the local surgery is almost nil. Breast screening is another difficult one, as all of the GPs' practices in Scotland are on 3 year rotations for it - ie once every 3 years every eligible woman registered with a practice in a certain area will be called for testing. If, like me, you move house quite often, you can find yourself arriving at a new GP practice just after they've done their tests - you then have to wait 3 years for their turn to come up again, but if you left your last GP just before their turn was due, you can find yourself actually waiting six years for a test. Try explaining that to the receptionists - they simply refuse to listen. Hey ho - I do appreciate that in the US it's much worse.
Rosemary
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The GP I mentioned is now caring for the 4th generation of my family, as is his nurse. Over the years, he has gone way beyond the call of duty to take a personal interest and to advise us about treatments, tests, referrals to specialists, etc.; he has always honored our requests. His professional and personal ethics are above reproach.
In the past few years, I have become very aware of changes in what he is "required" and "allowed" to do for patients who are not able to pay over and above the allotted amounts. Fortunately, I am not among them - but some of my personal friends who are also go to him and we are never treated differently by any of the office personnel or medical staff.
Just as there are still classrooms in which the learning atmosphere is good, there are medical people who are providing outstanding care.
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My nephew is a hospitalist doctor specializing in Pulmonary Intensive care. He loves the adrenalin on really ill humans. Says he would not be in private practice for anything.. Too many rules.
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY, STEPH!
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The January 2016 (Oh, can you BELIEVE that date!) issue of National Geographic has an astonishing article about a village in northeastern India where a very old tribe that has been left alone to itself still follows a matrilineal social order. The youngest daughter in any given family inherits All and rules the roost. Men are very respectful of women. It is a very small, but very charming story, and I wish they would do a TV documentary on it! Lessons to be learned here, that's for sure!
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That sounds like an article I want to read.. Especially in Indian which is very very male oriented.
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A lot of early societies and ones that have had no, or little, contact with Christian colonialism were/are matriarchal. They had women gods and women had the authority of governance, economics and religion. In the Iroquois Native American nation here in North America, there were women's councils who could veto going to war. Many tribes were matrilineal with the matriarch's son becomes the chief. The house and all that goes with it were the women's responsibility and husbands came to live in the bride's house with her family. If he misbehaved, according to the bride or her family, they simply put his belongings outside the house and that's the end of the "marital" relationship, unless he negotiated a settlement.
Many Nat Am women had authority that their counterparts in Europe never had. So much for "western civilization" being superior!
Jean
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I have Mohawk, New York type in my early genealogy. 1600's... A male Dutchman married a Mohawk woman, received an Island north of Schenectady and lived at least part of the time in her mothers house..
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OMG, THERE's our connection!
My mother was from a pre-revolutionery war clan of mostly Irish in waaaaaay upper state New York. She grew up in Au Sable Forks and Jay. Her great grandmother was a woman named Phoebe Collier and HER mother was a Mohawk squaw! There ya go!
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Barb, I some how missed you poster of "hope." Very nice. I've had a terrible 2015, (lost two siblings, had an enervating sinus infection along with a uti, two sprained feet from a fall) so I'm HOPING for a better 2016! ;D :D
Jean
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I came across a speech by Elizabeth Cady Stanton that I had not read before. I loved this paragraph and thought you might too. The 19th century writing of elongated sentences is a bit difficult for our 21st century brains to get used to, but I love her thinking. The speech is titled "Solitude of the Soul".
"The strongest reason for giving woman all the opportunities for higher education, for the full development of her faculties, forces of mind and body; for giving her the most enlarged freedom of thought and action; a complete emancipation from all forms of bondage, of custom, dependence, superstition; from all the crippling influences of fear, is the solitude and personal responsibility of her own individual life. The strongest reason why we ask for woman a voice in the government under which she lives; in the religion she is asked to believe; equality in social life, where she is the chief factor; a place in the trades and professions, where she may earn her bread, is because of her birthright to self-sovereignty; because, as an individual, she must rely on herself. No matter how much women prefer to lean, to be protected and supported, nor how much men desire to have them do so, they must make the voyage of life alone, and for safety in an emergency they must know something of the laws of navigation. To guide our own craft, we must be captain, pilot, engineer; with chart and compass to stand at the wheel; to match the wind and waves and know when to take in the sail, and to read the signs in the firmament over all. It matters not whether the solitary voyager is man or woman.
Nature having endowed them equally, leaves them to their own skill and judgment in the hour of danger, and, if not equal to the occasion, alike they perish.
Merry Christmas!
Jean
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You are right, The run on sentence is way way too long for me..
MaryPage.. Jacque Astonissen Van Slyck was the son of Corneis Astonissen Van Slyck and Alstock an Indian woman, who according to early records was the daughter of the head of the Mohawk tribe around Schenectady
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Oh my, they were way down state, as far as my people were concerned, albeit down in Manhattan they call that upstate. My Mohawks were in The North Country along Lake Champlain. To and over the Canadian border. Of course, their country knew no borders such as we know them. Pretty much Clinton (!) and Essex counties today.
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Oh my gosh, you just reminded me of an author I read decades ago - Helen Van Slyke. Did anyone else read her? I loved her books. Great family relationship stories. I was so sorry when I had read them all. Maybe I'll go back and reread them.
Have a good day and everyone be safe.
Jean
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Jean, I loved Helen Van Slyke, too - and haven't read anything by her in just about as long. I wonder if her books are even available any more.
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There are only 8 in our library now. I know they had more before. They must be culling their shelves.
Jean
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Some of the language used in this is a bit of an ouch but I do think it is important for us to know there are some young men who have it figured out - from the blog of my 24 year old grandson... He did not write the exchange but did publish it on his blog in solidarity.
mycatsneezeslikealot asked: if men and women should have equal rights then why are you against men wanting rights? feminism isn't about women being better then men is it?...
w3f3k: im against men complaining about wanting ‘mens rights’ because it’s never about wanting anything other than to silence and talk over women.
if men’s rights activists worked to open crisis centers for male victims of abuse and survivors of sexual violence i would love that. if men’s rights activists worked toward support and parenting classes and education for single fathers that would be amazing. if men’s rights activists worked toward educating fellow men on practicing safe sex and consent i would be so on board. if men’s rights activists worked toward breaking down the chains of racism of their brothers of colour i would be so happy. if men’s rights activists advocated for anything of value i would be so down for it all.
instead men’s rights activists sit on the fucking internet talking over women and attempting to silence them and their oppression with arbitrary add-ons, bullshit about the friendzone, and useless fucking nonsense.
so no. i have zero use for men’s rights activists because it’s never about advocating for things men need and instead it’s always about making sure women shut up about what they need. they aren’t “men’s rights activists” they’re “anti women activists”. point blank.
finally feminism is not about women being better than men nor is it about being equal to men. feminism is about women being liberated from men. i have no desire to be considered “equal” to the system of power that allows men to abuse, murder, and rape us. i want liberation from patriarchy and men.
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AMEN!
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I've just read this article from New Zealand about Jimmy Carter and women's rights. Interesting, if true.
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html?stb=fb
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Yes, he has a book out about it - read it last year... should be available in most libraries.
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Yes, Jimmy between Roslyn and his mother is a strong womans rights person.
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I have been loudly applauding Jimmy Carter for YEARS now for his constant and consistent attitude that women deserve equality in every way.
And oh, how I loved his mother, Miss Lillian! Few of us are HER equal, and that's a fact!
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I've always been told my paternal gm was a descendant of the Mohawk tribe in upstate NY. When I worked on the Iroquois Native American reservation in western NY (and they are their own nation), I told the director of my lineage and she warned me not to tell anyone on the Seneca Reservation about it. When I asked why (since they were both part of the Iroquois Confederacy) all she would say was that the Mohawk weren't well-liked because they were very 'war-like'.
Many years later, when my SIL began a geneology search, I went on an Iroquois paper site and discovered - to my horror - that the Mohawk were indeed war-like; they fought everyone...to the point that on at least two occasions, they nearly anhiliated themselves - down to about 200-300 people....and then decided they were losing because they had stopped eating their enemies, and resumed making sacrifices of captives and eating them in honoring their gods.
Actually not far off from our practice of harvesting body parts, utilizing fetal cells in many products, and throwing dead unborn babies into trash dumps (Ohio). Maybe we're really more savage than we like to admit!
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The Mohawks in the Schenectady area were first quite peaceful, but then when more and more people came, they declared war.. There was at least one massacre and two where they took children and raised them as tribal members, so early Schenectady genealogy gets quite interesting at times.
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Many of the Iroquois wars were 'mourning wars': captives would be tortured and, those who endured would either be killed or adopted, depending on the decision of the clan mother whose member was being avenged. And they did adopt others, who either came voluntarily or sometimes not.
At any rate, in my adult lifetime there seems to have been a growing tendency to view all accounts from Europeans as suspect and to idealize, or romanticize primitive cultures as more idyllic. The same seems to be true of places like New Hebrides (Vanuatu), the islands featured in the musical 'South Pacific' based on Michener's 'Tales From the South Pacific', who also practiced cannibalism until Europeans came.
I would suppose that every culture, and person, has their 'hall of shame' from the past, not to say that they didn't also have many traits to be admired. Multiculturalism should mention both.
Clan mothers did appoint chiefs (who were male) for life to the Iroquois Confederacy (and could remove them if desired), but there was still a division of labor present; women primarily in the home and fields, men hunting and fishing. And there were plenty of wars going on - among Indian tribes as well as against Europeans. Often a chief was appointed because they were the best warrior. The land belonged to the entire tribe, though clan mothers distributed it to members recognized as part of their mother's clan.
The Christian faith had an influence on these peoples:
"The Mohawk called themselves Ganiengehaka, or "people of the flint country." Their warriors, armed with flint arrows, were known to be overpowering; their enemies called them Mowak, meaning "man eaters."
In 1799, amidst the Christian missionary efforts, a revival of the ancient Longhouse religion developed. A Seneca known as Handsome Lake had spent much of his life in dissolute living and fell gravely ill when he was about 65 years old. He expected to die, but instead, he experienced a profound vision and recovered. Inspired, he began to spread the Good Word among his fellow Iroquois. The New Religion was essentially a revitalization of the ancient pagan beliefs, although some Quaker influence can be detected.
Major tenets of the New Religion included shunning of alcoholic beverages, abandonment of beliefs in witchcraft and love potions, and denunciation of abortion. The fact that Handsome Lake's message had come in a dream gave it a profound impact among the Haudenosaunee. The religion was instrumental in showing many Iroquois how to retain their own culture while adapting to a world dominated by non-Indians."
The Seneca Nation near-by have both a Christian and Longhouse side. A 'nation within a nation', they have had - and continue to have - problems with NYS. For instance, NYS is concerned about a loss of revenue due to the selling of tobacco products and gasoline on the reservation. They have tried to get the Indians to collect the state tax, which they refuse to do. Other methods were equally resisted. Now you have to estimate (or use a formula) how much you purchase from the reservation and pay the tax on your annual income tax. Gambling establishments have also been a source of contention.
Neither gender, nor any culture/government are perfect. There is no 'heaven on earth'. At best, I think, we can learn from the past and from one another - learn to forgive one another - and work together to respect all people(s).
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mogamom... You wrote "Neither gender, nor any culture/government are perfect. There is no 'heaven on earth'. At best, I think, we can learn from the past and from one another - learn to forgive one another - and work together to respect all people(s). "
Amen - and would that we could/would do just that!
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Understanding another culture is really important, but just now I am realizing that Muslim has to extremely different cultures and they seem to be deadly enemies. Christianity seems to have matured enough to not think that different versions of it are heresy.. At least mostly.
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Yes, definitely! Understanding THAT these different cultures and beliefs exist is vitally important information for every single person working in international trade, diplomacy, politics and so on. When I hear some of our own public figures displaying abysmal knowledge of these things, I cringe and grind my teeth.
I remember it was back in the very early sixties that I was studying the African continent with a fierce determination to get a picture and an understanding in my head. Particularly fascinated with Nigeria at that time, learning about that country reminded me of second year Latin in High School. We learned right from the git go Caesar's description of Gaul (mostly France in Europe) as being divided into 3 parts, and as I studied the history and currant situation in Nigeria I found myself murmuring: Omnia Nigeria tres partes divisa est!
Well, that may be poor Latin, but you get the point. I learned that Nigeria, like so many phony nations manufactured by Colonial Powers, was always at war with itself. Muslims across the north, Yoruba Southwest and Ibo Southeast. Hundreds of tribes, really, but these were the principals in each section, with the Ibo being the brains of the nation, if not of the continent itself. Some years later when this tribe rebelled and attempted to set up its own nation, I cheered them on. They lost, and were pretty much wiped out. Pity. Also a pity I realized, most of my compatriots hadn't a clue about this and could care less.
By the time 2001 rolled around, I had done an in depth study of the Middle East and Central Asia, as well. Bob was still alive then, and we had animated discussions with a number of his retired colleagues and their wives, clear up until his death in 2006. From the git go, we were absolutely screaming that we should not go into Iraq because it also was a tres partes divisa est phony nation, and it would be like attacking some hornet hives. Kurds to the north, Sunni central and Shia south pretty much describes it. Most of my personal sympathy went with the Kurds, albeit I will admit they are pretty bloodthirsty. They are also desperate to have a country to raise their children in. As for the Sunni and the Shia, in reading up on what their leadership foamed at the mouth about, I learned that Sunni children were taught that the Shia are the scum of the Earth! Worse than Christian and Jew even, they deserve to DIE and should all be KILLED! What really had us banging our heads against the walls, figuratively speaking, was that our own leadership did not appear to KNOW this! We knew the Foreign Service officers did, but where were the rest of them coming from? And the Foreign Service does not offer opinions in public or set or influence national policy. Our blood pressures rose recklessly every time we heard the evening news.
Well, folks don't learn their lessons from our History books, albeit they should have a strong in depth schooling in that discipline. Instead, our native born would be world leaders seem to hold a pattern of what WE are up as the ideal configuration for each and every other nation on this planet! And in their immense hubris, they completely fail to consider that other peoples take pride in their languages, their traditions, and their religious beliefs. They have feelings that our clueless orators never acknowledge, but instead plow up and mow down like so many talking tanks. Ai yi yi!
I am so glad I am near to leaving this explosive situation. I shudder at what I see coming and don't want to unfold.
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The Shia and Sunni seem to be deadly enemies.. Our Schisms are different in many ways. I took a number of courses in the making of the bible and realized how many divides there were at the beginning of christianity.. But now they are mostly just something you read about.. Africa is full of artificial nations.. Sad but true and now committed to borders that are not real.
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Generally speaking, most of us do not own the mind set of Death to the unbeliever, and so forth. But yet again, look at the history. Burned at the stake for being Catholic or Protestant. The St. Bartholomew's Massacre. Many other horrors. Whole churches have been burned down with the congregation inside. The centuries of killings in Northern Ireland. I can remember when Germany, pre-Nazi, was pretty much divided into Catholic and Lutheran.
Some years ago, I heard a TV preaching by Jimmy Swaggart. He was taking long strides up and down the stage with his head turned to the audience and his Bible held high in one hand, and (this was before she died) he asked the audience: "Do you think for one minute that Mother Teresa is going to Heaven? No! Not unless she is Born Again and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as her Savior!" I about fell off my chair in disbelief!
But bottom line, no, it would seem we have no Christian militia bound and dedicated to killing Christians of other dogma. Or non-Christians, for that matter. But we have thousands of armed militias in this country alone now; so who knows what will come out of them.
Another thing there are thousands of, literally: churches that have had strong disagreements over prayer books, conducting services, or hiring pastors. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard of a divided congregation splitting and become two. I have even read, over and over again, of the legal disputes that follow over the ownership of the original church buildings and real estate. No, we are not all that peaceful and "Christian" anywhere you go, as we would like to believe we are. The god gene in us brings forth horrendously strong emotions that remind me of nothing so much as someone having a stomach flu that keeps them in the bathroom spewing up THAT kind of venom!
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Last year I met collage students who were studying international affairs and world peace at NC in Chapel Hill - some were specializing in various areas of the middle east and had spent at least one if not two semesters living there with host families - I learned of several books to read from them and at the same time my own curiosity had me reading - the layer that is not explored on the best of our news but alluded to when they say tribal leaders is there is another more forceful layer -
The middle east is a tribal society - there is no one man for one vote - you vote by tribes and your religion is the version of the tribe - some are large tribes with several hundred thousand and some are smaller with a only a few thousand. The biggest issue is attempting to stay tribal pure - that was the start of secluding women and having them hidden behind burka's - marriages are arranged within tribes and this is NOT just a social issue - it is economic for the entire family.
Most of the tribes have collective ownership in land, resources, etc. today includes buildings - the profit is divided among the tribal families - if you marry outside the tribe not only you but your entire family no longer receives the annual revenue from the tribal profits and you cannot use tribal parks etc. The police can actually tell if you are a tribal member - the headscarf is one give-away but then where we may not know the subtleties in physical appearance, they do. And so the couple that marry out of their tribe no longer can go to the parks or areas of the cemetery that are for the tribal pure.
Tribes have been warring with each other almost, what would appear to us as a pass time since, before the Shia Sunni split - a great part of the underbelly here is a power struggle between tribes that we see as if it were a conflict between Shia and Sunni.
Also the tribes have perfected playing chess with each other - they get others to fight their wars for them and always have - up until recently we were fighting in Iraq so that the Saudi's did not have to fight - the Iraq war left the oil fields in the gulf alone where the Saudi's had free reign - this part of the world few things are straight on.
Example it is considered a put down, disrespect, an insult if you do not haggle as we call it or negotiate everything you use - life is all about knowing your value to the vendor, partner, employer - knowing the real costs, margins, acceptable price based on acceptable margins of profit. This is part of every day life - picking up an apple for supper or a months supply of water or the cost of going to the dentist. It is also how they measure the affect of a fight against cost and who can they get to take on part of the cost - the tribal members we see in the streets are simply the pawns. Even those who do certain acts of violence are maybe knights but are often pawns.
The most confusing now is the many who have been educated in the west and are not part of the tribal leader's family but also know that if they go against the tribe and its leaders they are putting their entire family in jeopardy - they may be working and fighting for independence as in the Arab Spring but as soon as the actual fighting is over the Tribal leaders move in and all is lost again.
Learn more about the tribes and the news will begin to make another kind of sense that is the reality that I do not even hear our state department acknowledging - the whole thing in Syria is a few army captains who deserted and wanted to change Syria into a democratic nation so they sought the help of the US to go after Assad - we seem to be stuck in supporting these guys and act as if we will loose face by switching to support Assad - all the atrocities the state department brings up to justify keeping Assad as the enemy are all the acts that Assad used ONLY after he was attacked - they are actions of war - look at our own Civil War - were citizens protected - no - look at Sherman's march to the sea and yet, he is lionized as a great general - same thing with Assad.
Why oh why those who are in the state department do not by now understand tribal authority and how it is the real map of the middle east I am totally baffled - it is as if now that they know of the Sunni Shia split that is where they focus - it is far more about tribes that are either Sunni or Shia. Look at the tribes in Saudi Arabia and in Afghanistan and Iran and even in Egypt although the Egyptians are not as tribal in their politics for the last 70 or so years. Morocco and Libya are tribal societies. One of the girls from the group of students spent a year with a family in Morocco living in a high rise during the week but going back to family every weekend, she explained how the day to day life and all the celebrations were tribal.
When Israel confiscates land for their building they are not taking just a local farmer's land they are taking tribal land which by now that assault is too much and is what fuels the Palestinians who are a tribal people.
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Well...for sure, we are all "much more human than otherwise". Which, I would say, is one reason having a faith that raises you to be better than you are is of inestimable importance. Persecutions of other Christians...I would surmise...is more about good old fashioned power and greed, than about the god gene. (I actually heard a ninth grade biology teacher go on a rant about Bush not opening more lines of fetal stem cells for research say that we know what gene produces alcoholism ... homosexuality...and have even identified the 'faith' gene, which should be eliminated to do away with all wars...yipes!).
I could see Swaggart saying that about Mother Theresa: protestants believe in the five solas - faith alone being one. Not to negate any of the good she did, but simply to say that good works alone don't assure one of heaven (since good works are done for many reasons), but need to proceed from a love and commitment to Christ alone - to the glory of God. And people can disagree - even strongly disagree (even as Luther did with his friend Erasmus) - and still act in love and respect with one another (though if you read the letters between the two mentioned, and judged them from modern standards, you might not realize they were friends). In the end, since God judges the heart, and He alone knows what each of us believe and do, as well as why, it's best to leave Him to His place as the perfect judge; we're only called to be 'fruit inspectors'.
I also know several churches that have split and it is sad indeed; many are hurt. Still, though it should never be over the non-essentials of the faith, there is a time to call people back to what they say they believe - to the tenets of the faith. And, again...how many occur from pride and power, not their Christian faith? God has used even these missteps, even as they dishonor Him, to the good of individuals who continued to be faithful even while going through this. In our faith, no pain (which we are all subject to in our fallen world) is wasted. Indeed, as we each consider the pain we've caused, whether on purpose or not, it ought to humble us and help us endure the injustice/harm caused to us by another. I read a definition of forgiveness I really like: "forgiveness is giving up my right to hold another responsible for the harm they have done to me". It would do us all well to continue to develop a forgiving spirit, even while protecting ourselves and others from those who are bent on doing them harm.
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That is very interesting, BarbStAubrey! I must have been typing when you posted. Good observations here. Perhaps our State Department does understand and simply has some other goal in mind?
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OK,, I agree Barbara, but my belief stops for me, when they come to the U.S. and want to become citizens. We have a rule of law and many muslims bring too much baggage with them. Most of our immigrants are here to become citizens and mostly understand that there are certain basics in the U.S. You can be a tribe, but stay awaya from the U.S. In Israel, I am sorry, but I believe that the jews were there before the muslims.. Muslims were there after when they were a power. Now they want to go back.. So I never feel sorry for Palestinians.. Sorry.
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Steph here in the US there is no economic benefit to continuing the power structure and traditions of Tribal Law.
Those who are here are middle income educated folks - the news picks up stories that are against the grain regardless your background - for instance they do not write an article about a law abiding middle class Black family, where the adults are employed in professional jobs, whose children get good grades, and the family attends church on Sunday. The media writes about the black family where someone is troubled or breaking the law or organizing other Blacks for a cause, the children they write about are disruptive and are not on their way as a family to church.
Well that is the same with folks from Mexico, Guatemala, Syria, Nigeria, Iraq, Honduras, Afghanistan - not so much bad press shown towards those from China or Indonesia, more just a cold shoulder - These are all areas of the world that the US is experiencing a large influx of refuges and migrants.
Most were professionals in the country the fled and they are vetted before they can get on a plane. Once here they are acclimated by a group like Caritas or another church group - they have left their home and everything they knew, from how to shop and what to eat, to what to wear much less, where to pray and how the children learn. They have also left bombed out homes and the bone chilling fear that goes with the slaughter by either gangs or an organized army.
Where as, those who traveled on the tops of trains and walked more than a thousand miles over Mountains and rivers into the US who, are not vetted however, they are not just escaping poverty but, many are fleeing for their life as street gangs, drug cartels gangs and government paid groups are killing mostly fathers and young men.
I think this is worth watching with both Reagan and Bush Sr.
- https://www.facebook.com/chroncom/videos/10154528827472814/?theater
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Don't mean to change the subject, but I'm preparing to present a series on Women's History at the library in March and found this interesting article about who's writing books and who the books are about. I don't even need to tell you, this is an old and everlasting story and why we have to have an emphasis on Women's History month, just to get heard and remembered.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2016/01/popular_history_why_are_so_many_history_books_about_men_by_men.html
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I will provide a bibliography for each of the sessions I will be presenting, if you would like I can tell you each week what is on that bibliography. They are all non-fiction books, of course and most of them are female authors.
Maybe we should spend a year talking about and/or reading female non-fiction. Of course a lot of the fiction books we talk about here are by female authors, so we are doing our part there in supporting them.
Jean
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If we (talking about the Brits here) hadn't given Palestine away to the Jews, the world would not be suffering this Muslim backlash now.
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I, for one, don't hold the British responsible. Actually, under British rule Muslim, Jew and Christian lived together in peace. But with the Jewish refuges fleeing Europe to Palestine the British were getting attacked by both sides, Palestinian and Jew. Pulling out and handing the whole thing over to the UN probably seemed like the sensible thing to do. I think if the UN had followed through on the British recommendation for a two-state solution - giving the Palestinians help with developing skills in self-government and establishing necessary institutions and public facilities/utilities - there might have been a better out-come.
I surely don't blame the Jews for wanting to go 'home'. Refugees were turned away from every country - even ours. Winter was coming with no place for shelter, food. Palestine looked like the only place they had a chance?
Several years ago we went on a two-week study-tour of Israel with a guide licensed by the Vatican (he's not Catholic, but he was allowed to take people to places Jewish guides could not go) who had a doctorate degree in Biblical Geography (we even learned how Moses caused water to come from a rock when he struck it). Our guide lived in Israel for 15 years until he returned to Texas and just traveled over for the tours. In discussing the difficulties in the country, Dr. M. said that when he first came to Israel after a week he was ready to write a book about the conflict; after a month he thought he could write an article; after a year he considered writing an essay; by the time he was with us he had decided he didn't have anything to say. He could see both sides. He couldn't see a solution.
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Yes, a two state solution was the answer, but the Arabs were not about to let that happen.
I do agree up to a point on immigration of middle class people to the U.S., but I also live in a part of the U. S . where Disney in all its glory makes a huge amount of immigrants think that they just need to get here and the world will be their oyster. I had neighbors down in Kissimmee,, He had at least two wives with him, they were the ones who worked in a convenience store that he owned. He once opened his garage door and it was filled with cots.. all rented to workers.. He was arrogant.. and pushy and I really had to change my entire walk route in the mornings because he considered himself irrisistable.. ugh.. Several of my employees at that point were young.. Listening to them, I realized that it was just fine if the boys of an arab family dated Americans, but not the females..All in all, there are a lot of people here that should not be.. If your home country has gangs. try to change your country.. South and Central America has many problems. but until you change their political stance, nothing will happen.
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Last year I read what I thought to be an excellent book - fiction but based on fact - by J David Simons, called The Land Agent. It's about young settlers in an early kibbutz, and the titular land agent, who doesn't at first realise how many different factions are involved in the coming troubles. British, Russian, Jewish, Arabs (but the Arabs less so) are all implicated in the search for water and other precious resources. It's well written and I really enjoyed it. It's part of a series about Celia Kahn (a young Jewish woman from Glasgow) but you don't need to have read any of the others to read this one. I've found the review I posted on Amazon in case anyone's interested:
'This book is at least two things: a wonderful, gripping story about a young man's flight from a life of hardship in Poland to one of some prosperity in Haifa, and a fascinating insight into 1920s Palestine and the struggle for land and water that is still at the root of today's conflicts.
J David Simons brings the history of the region to life through outstandingly well developed characters - there is no hint of the textbook about this novel, yet at the end I felt I understood so much more about the Middle East. From the hero, Lev, to his landlady Madame Blum - who hates Israel, his boss Sammy, with his high ideals and the diverse members of Kfar Ha-Emek, the rudimentary kibbutz with whom he finds himself entangled, every individual is drawn as just that - a person with his or her own idiosyncrasies. There is no black and white, right and wrong (at least in 1920) in this land of hope and harshness. And as events come to a frightening climax in Haifa, back in Glasgow - the home city of one of the kibbutznik - another attempt at social idealism founders as the temperance movement fails.
The Land Agent is part of J David Simons' trilogy Glasgow to Galilee, and I am looking forward to reading the first two books - but this one can still be read alone: it's exceptionally good.'
Rosemary
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That's the thing: it is complicated beyond belief, and human lives are affected. You could read every fact, every detail, memorize the geography involved, and take tours of the areas, but you still could not see the whole picture unless you could do the impossible: be born half a dozen or more times, and each time as a different race & culture, and remember how it was with each one.
I wish so very much that we would not elect politicians who are totally ignorant of the history involved here. They proclaim such stupid, simplistic solutions, which only serve to enrage the peoples over there and make things worse rather than better.
Pity folks today are lining up so fiercely on one side or the other. By that I mean Republican or Democrat. We used to have cooperation, with our representatives honestly wanting to solve these kinds of problems. What has happened to the theory that they are elected TO GET THINGS DONE?
One thing really frightens me, and it is so very illogical. Instead of blaming the particular killers and, if there is a group behind them claiming to have had a part in it, them also, the public today wants to blame a whole group by race or religion. That is just CALLING OUT for racial and religious wars. And the public does not even seem to see this. When a young person who is mentally ill, or a couple or more demented young men, shoot up a school or place of work, only they get blamed. But let a Jew, black person, brown person, Oriental, Muslim, Arab, or what have you conduct a shooting, and voices are heard all over the land demanding death to ALL Jews, black persons, brown persons, Orientals, Muslims, Arabs, or whatever the group designation. There simply must be some urging of the public to see how dangerous this is!
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MaryPage it benefits the few to keep the masses in a state of fear and rage - if not, they will be the recipients - however they seem to have such control over the governing in cities that they were able to get city leaders to get the police to break up completely the Occupy movement. Plus a war means huge profits which we are only hearing now how private money has taken over the armed services leaving the service men with nothing but the most dangerous work.
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Well, we did hear and see right on the TV news that our forces went into Afghanistan and Iraq without the armored protection required, and they wrote home and begged their families to send them the materials so they could fix their vehicles and bodies themselves. I mean, the entire public had access to that information, and you would think they would have stormed the halls of congress, but it was just ho hum. I don't get it. Hundreds of billions of dollars for defense, and inadequate protection. Something stinks right here, and not in Denmark! They're telling us we have the Greatest army in the world? REALLY?
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Terrifying to me.. A young muslim woman went to a Trump rally, stood in silent protest and Trump erupted, she was escorted out to horrible remarks and Trump... CALLED HER OUT OF CONTROL. Now who was and is out of control.. Trump is really starting to scare me. He b rings out the underlying fury in a certain type of people.. This is not good and I honestly thought that we were done with that sort of nonsense, but I guess people really do not learn from their mistakes.
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Oh, I share your horror, Steph. Absolutely. My empathy for that young woman knows no bounds. Cruel rapaciousness, that's Donald Trump. Well, if that video clip gets played and played and replayed, his numbers should finally go down. At least, one would hope. The American people tend not live up to my standards these days.
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As of reading the Parade magazine section of today's newspaper, I am a huge Leonardo DiCaprio fan. I have always considered him a greatly gifted actor, but have not carded at all for the type of films he makes, so therefore he has not been much on my mind at all. Now I am cheering Big Time.
He says: "Women have been the most persecuted people throughout all of recorded history, more than any race or religion."
Let's hear it for DiCaprio!
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hmm, but this is also the man who only dates super models. so I am a bit wary.
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Oh. Well, I did not know that. I don't know much about movie stars these days. I am thrilled by his statement, however.
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Statement was fine, but he bothers me in a lot of ways..
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I watched (and read) the incident at the Trump rally involving the muslim woman. So....no protesters were allowed in the auditorium - there was a designated area for protestors, as most people are doing now. So she knew going in that she was violating the rules for attendance. Why did she think she had the right to ignore the rules? I see that she said that she thought most people had never met a muslim; I fail to see how she thought that protesting in defiance of rules would cause anyone to be sympathetic to her cause?
Female muslims, I think, have shown that they are as supportive of violence as men are in radical Islam.
And did we realize that a symbol of Islam is an eight-pointed star?
I agree with suspending immigration until we can find a better way to vet applicants. We nearly completely stopped immigration from 1924 - the mid-'60's. Prior to that the majority of immigrants came from Europe - where assimilation into American culture is much easier. The 'peace' of Islam appears solely dependent on a world in submission to its tenets.
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Standing silently is a known way of silent protest. It has been used for years . Quakers do this in many cities, once a week in protest of all of the wars.. I saw the video and he was way out of control.. and so were some of his followers. You dont scream and shake your so called hair around.. What a dreadful man and his followers worry me.
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They ARE scary. It is as though they are all infected with rabies. :)
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We lived in a Muslim country for several years from 1960-1963. We ate with our Fatima's Muslim sister's family a delicious meal of stew cooked on a small hibachi and drank very sweet mint tea. She saw I was interested and took me into her very small "bare bones" kitchen. It was such an interesting visit. She showed me their sugar that came in thin sheets and you just break off what you need. According to protocol information, we learned we should conclude our visit when offered the third cup of tea.
Her sister and family lived in the Medina in an apartment. The doors were curtains. I felt really sorry for my Fatima as her husband had taken another wife and decided to divorce her and even took her little boy away from her. She had no legal recourse. The women were treated so badly and I don't believe it has gotten much better in the ensuing years. We also visited with an American missionary family many times. As far as I could learn, they never had any (at least public) converts because of such dire consequences from their Muslim families. I just never got the impression that Islam is in anyway a kind religion.
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The kindness that I understand is that they take in as an overnight guest anyone and everyone who travels through or asks - regardless their circumstance they provide a place to sleep, a cup of tea and a share of the family meal.
What I also understand is that is it the religion that is USED to perpetrate and maintain traditions from the 12th century - western centers for learning in the west out stripped them starting in 12 and 13th century so that like so many communities found in Appalachia after WWII, when roads were finally cut through so too the middle east faded into isolation as westerners no longer turned to the east after the East West Schism in 1054. We had the Holy Roman Empire with the Pope as its leader splitting the church and all it governed in half, with the Eastern Orthodox Church east of Constantinople, up till then the center of the unified church. After the East West Schism Rome became the center for the Holy Roman Church and Constantinople continued as the center for the Eastern Orthodox.
It wasn't till the 15th century that the Eastern Orthodox center Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Empire the Muslims had control over much of the land in the Ottoman Empire and had taken back control in Jerusalem. However, with all the Muslims controlled there was still not the commerce between the Muslim world and the West except in spices.
Until oil became a useful commodity with ways to extract it rather than it bubbling up and raft size hardened blocks of it were used for just that, rafts - there was no economic reason for the west to engage with the east. No commerce means no inter action between peoples and just as in Appalachia, when the whiskey tax made it non-profitable to turn corn and get it down those mountains to be transported on the rivers in the form of barrels of whiskey the people were forgotten and they continued to live, dress, worship and talk as if it were the 1790s.
Much of the culture of Muslims is about Tribal purity and the only way they were able to preserve Tribal Purity is to control women - traditions from the middle ages and before continued - even our own western standards of good will towards each other was crude and rough during the middle ages - as the Tribes loose their economic reason for being we will see the end of the importance of tribal purity therefore, freeing women except, for the most conservative who preserve the traditions of the middle ages.
It is only now with all the technology and money flowing into the middle east that there is a hope for modernity to enter their lifestyle - that is why they say it will take another generation before we see any differences and the areas that are cut off it will take even longer.
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Whew,, I live in the socalled Appalachian area in the summers and you really are way out about those people in so many ways.. Running moonshine was a time honored activity in many families.. They are proud and joyful people. a little religious for my taste, but they are sincere in so many ways..
I have only known a few muslims in my life well enough to begin to understand them..I know from my studies that early christianity was rough and violent for a long time.. Many of the US original immigrants came here to escape ... Early Quakers in Rhode Island,, Catholics and quakers in the Delmarva peninsula.. Sephardic jews in Savannah.. They all assimilated well. The Palatine Germans settled an area in upstate NY.. We have had so many immigration patterns and they all managed to fit in..
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Steph I lived in Kentucky for 12 years when my children were elementary school age - involved in much work in Appalachia - taking High School Seniors into areas where we inoculated the children and taught History to the adults - we also brought some older students from Barea Collage who winterized the one room school houses - a few of these communities we visited were still dressed and lived as if the eighteenth century - some areas had TV and from the many movies they watched they thought all American Indians were dead - the communities that were near the coal mines were a different kind of poor than these communities living off the land.
Going to Morehead for supplies at times we took one or two of the younger children with us - one young boy spent an hour opening and closing a door never having seen a door with hinges - another time a young girl spent the whole time snapping the light switch, again, never having seen a light switch much less that much light inside.
Going to one small community and my son was with us and he got car sick - stopped at a nearby house asking for water and was handed a pail and told about a mile down the road there was water - when we got there it was a pool of water covered in algae under a rock cropping. That was their only source of water - and yes, we learned from the professors at Barea Collage why and what happened and how the roads that started to be built after WWII opened the mountains to many communities that few knew existed.
I believe Steph you are in the Franklin area of North Carolina - which was not settled till the nineteenth century. My daughter teaches in Hendersonville and even there the land was was part of Cherokee Indian territory and settlers only came into the area after the Revolutionary war.
The early settlements were near a river used as a highway to transport goods and people - corn grown in the Appalachians could not be hauled out of the mountains and so as in all history going back to the Egyptians in order to preserve grain it was made into at first beer - later it was preserved and enjoyed as whiskey. I am not talking about moonshine which came about after the whiskey tax when there was no profit attempting to haul corn to the river - This loss of revenue from the sale of their corn in the form of whiskey kept many communities isolated. The many rivers that rose considerably in the spring also helped to keep people contained within an areas - isolation keeps the traditional ways of life alive and commerce is how early settlements through out the world were opened to different ideas and affect the growth on every level in civilization.
There is nothing detrimental being said about the folks who live in Appalachia now or in those days when their communities were first discovered or, about the crops they grow and the products they make from those crops - all that is being said is, because of a law taxing a product, the people had no outlet for their crops and so they had no reason to go to the river and the community became isolated just as there were isolated communities all over the middle east -
Another example of a people isolated - before Saddam actions after the Gulf War in the 1990s there was a huge community of March Arabs having lived in the marches of southern Iraq for thousands of years, descendants of the ancient Sumerians. Saddam drained much of the swamp and in order to survive the people had to change their entire culture and live as others in Iraq.
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Actually the area around Franklin was settled early, but in small villages.. centered around the grist mills in the area. It is very vertical in that area. The Cherokee were there first and are still there in large numbers. Some of the smaller villages have gotten proud of their heritage and are having wonderful weekends in the summer where they bring in the older people and show off crafts of all types. One of the talks I attended this summer was on the Plott Hound ( a special hound breed, now recognized by the AKC.. A Mr. Plott came with some of the dogs and explained how an ancestor came from Germany with several Hounds and since they lived in a remote area, how they had bred the dogs and imported more. Fascinating. In this community, the small schoolhouse has been turned into a community center. They teach all sorts of crafts, have a wonderful farmers market on Tuesdays and generally revive the area.
I guess my upset was that these are proud proud people and if they feel in any way, that you are looking down on them, they withdraw.. It is still poor in the Franklin area, although Hendersonville is quite a different story. Lots of money and a gorgeous down town.. Apple Orchards make their money.
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oops. Have been to Kentucky quite a bit when we were in the RV.. I love Berea and the college and Pleasant Hill the old Shaker community. Kentucky is a beautiful state indeed.
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Yes, I agree Steph - the people of Appalachia are very proud, more so the pride shows among those who for generations lived off the land where as, at least in Kentucky, in the coal mining communities the people were beat down but did stick together. I lived in Kentucky when the weekend line of vehicles were bumper to bumper as far as the eye could see of folks coming back from Detroit for a weekend home which was usually only a day and one night - some would risk and stay leaving so late on Sunday night it was actually Monday. For those making the trip every weekend it was usually just Dad or Mom and Dad, who worked in Detroit leaving the kids with Grandma.
The largest number of those living in Appalachia were of what is called Scot Irish heritage - actually Irish but those who emigrated in the seventeenth century were distinguished from the Irish that came mid nineteenth century by calling themselves Scot Irish - they were from the rural areas of Ireland and most were as a result of those from Scotland who did escape to Ireland after they finally lost their independence to England early to mid sixteenth century. All to say the aspect of pride is part of the Scot Irish character.
It was a part of our national character when I was a child - no matter how low financially you just never took from the government or from charities - families and neighbors helped out each other - if you didn't have, you didn't use - sure the Government created jobs that were grabbed but that gave a man dignity - those who did take hand outs were looked down upon.
Appalachia took a beating by the press when folks like the Kennedy's opened up the area to a national discussion on poverty. According to our middle class standards yes, the area showed poverty but a lot of it was simply the result of living off the land and that pride of survival from the land was completely missed by most photo journalists. Those living there felt embarrassed and used by the choice of photos published and the news articles.
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The scot-irish is interesting since Franklin considers themselves entirely Scot... Big parades and a weekend of festivities, the local Presbyterian church does the kirking ceremony and a special dinner.. There is a tartan museum there which is fascinating as you see what the tartans and kilts started out as.
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Hi. I had spinal surgery last Friday and only today felt up to coming in here. I am from the Shenandoah Valley, and we often drove up into the mountains of Virginia & West (by God) Virginia. So beautiful. I have known a lot of the folk you write about. German, Scot and Irish mostly. Hard working and proud, yes. Good people. Most people are good, but yes, since Religion and Politics have with some all across this nation become one, it seems a bit weird to me these days. We were so very careful not to do that when I was coming up and learning how to behave socially. I fear deeply this movement is a mistake, but these days I am forced to doing all of my passing judgment from my small apartment. I will never go "down home" again. In my heart, I yearn for those mountains.
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OhMaryPage.. do get well. we all miss you so much when we dont hear.. I love the Virginia mountains.. So very beautiful.
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MaryPage thinking about you - hope you are at least more comfortable after surgery -
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Do hope you are felling better after surgery, MaryPage! My brother-in-law had spinal surgery a couple of years ago and has had great relief - here's hoping relief is coming to you as well!!
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Oh, thank you. I love to hear of people for whom it worked. I'm yet to find out for sure, as I'm still fatigued, sore, achy and so on.
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I am sure we are all keeping fingers crossed that it will work and provide you with relief and freedom from pain.
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I am ever so gratified and delighted to see that Planned Parenthood has been exonerated in every state, were there twelve in all, in which it was prosecuted for various "crimes" in an attempt to bring it down. They have even proved, according to the national news, that the people who made the dreadful film about aborted baby parts were themselves guilty of the mishandling of those parts, and NOT Planned Parenthood. The chief prosecutor in Texas said he went into the investigation quite certain he would find the facts marshaled would prove a case against PP, and had found just the opposite to be the Truth!
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This morning on the news. The enemies of Planned parenthood lied to achieve drivers license and other things they needed to pretent they were other than what they said they were. They are claiming that all reporters do this and it is legal.. I really hope not.. The only people I know who can lie at will are policeman in an investigation with a suspect.
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It is absolutely NOT legal.
Your passport is the legal property of WE THE PEOPLE of these United States and, in particular, the Department of State. For a fee, it is issued to you for the purpose of affirming who you are and your rights to the protection of your country. But the little book belongs to your nation, and it is a HIGH crime to counterfeit one.
Exactly the same is true of your drivers license. It belongs to the state that issues it, and most particularly to the motor vehicle department, whatever it may be called, in your state. You pay a fee for the ID and protections it gives. Don't mess with it or try to alter, copy or counterfeit.
Maybe in trashy novels, but in Real Life reporters DO NOT counterfeit IDs. They also have IDs from their publications, from an event they are covering, and so on and on. There are some covert attempts to obtain news exclusives, but these would be carefully planned with all the powers and law abiding antics of the news organization, and not include law breaking. These so called pro-life folks murder doctors and nurses and break all sorts of other laws in order to try to paint any view but theirs in a bad light. They only succeed in making me terrified of their fanatic zeal.
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It has long struck me that the fanatic, foaming at the mouth haters of Planned Parenthood do not actually have a clue as to the makeup of their perceived enemy.
PP started in my mother's time. Women. All women.
The original purpose was to help poor women learn that there were ways to avoid having a child every year, year after year after year. You see, the highly educated young society women wanted both to fight city hall and make the never spoken of birth control LEGAL, and to help their less fortunate sisters who had no control over their own fortunes and fates.
These young society women, who were raised and educated to spend their lives volunteering for good causes, were quick to take up this new cause. Haters who wanted to make them look bad accuse them to this day of wanting to curb the numbers of the blacks, the immigrants, the poverty stricken. But I grew up with these women. I know the history first hand. The truth is, they were motivated first and foremost by a sense of empathy and compassion. There, but for an accident of birth, they might have been themselves: weighed down by the annual birth of a baby and the inability to afford to give those babies the advantages of good nutrition, privacy in their living quarters, cleanliness, and education. PP rose from these caring feelings, and has remained so to this day. That is it in a nutshell. Let all of us avow that we shall pour our energies to the welfare of our less fortunate sisters.
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I agree, MaryPage. You sound like you are feeling some better these days. ;)
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Seems as if these people set up a phony corporation, issued phony id's to infiltrate and film a private conference.Surely that should be something to prosecute them.. I did read where they are in trouble in a variety of states. Why does this not get more publicity.. Oh, I know.. the big mouth with the stupid hair is garnering all publicity of any type. Sigh.
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Our public loves loud negative news accusing some person or persons or organization of dreadful sins, and they love to embellish on and spread the smears. But when the news is that none of it was true, wow, what a downer. They just don't want to hear any of THAT!
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Margaret Sanger and Kathrine McCormick are two of the social activists I will be talking about in my presentations at the library during Women's History Month. Here is a large part of what I will say about them. I write my notes in my own "shorthand", I've tried to find all the words I've done that with and expand them into actual English words for you. If I missed any, I think you can figure out what I was saying........
"In People of the Century, Gloria Steinam states, “she taught us, first, to look at the world as if women mattered.” Born into an Irish working class family, Margaret witnessed her mother’s slow death, worn out after 18 pregnancies & 11 live births. While working as a nurse & midwife in t poorest neighborhoods of NYC in the yrs before WWI, she saw women deprived of their health, sexuality & ability to care for children already born. Contraceptive information was so suppressed by clergy-influenced, physician-accepted laws that it was a criminal offense to send it thru t mail. Yet the educated had access to such info and could buy “French” products, which were really condoms & other barrier methods & “feminine hygiene” products, which were really spermicides. The Comstock law of 1873, called for the “suppression of Trade in & Circulation of, obscene literature & articles of Immoral use.” The act made it a crime to use the USPS to send items of erotica, but also info about contraceptives, even descriptions of a woman’s reproductive system. Many woman did not have an iota of an idea of how they got pregnant, or that there was any way to not get pregnant other than abstinence, which was not always a choice for them. When as a nurse returning to the home of a woman who had suffered the end of her 9th pregnancy, the woman asked the doc that Margaret was working w/ “how do I stop getting pregnant?” the doc answered “tell your husband to sleep on the roof.” When M asked doctors the same question they told her that was info she did not need to know, even though she was a nurse & midwife.
In a series of articles called “what every girl should know”, then in her own newspaper, The Woman Rebel, & finally thru neighborhood clinics that dispensed woman-controlled forms of “birth control” (a phrase she coined), Sanger put info & power into the hands of woman. While in Europe for a year, partly to avoid severe criminal penalties, partly for violating postal obscenity laws, she learned more about reproduction, contraception & the commonality of women’s experience. Condoms and diaphragms, that most Eur’n women were using , were not allowed to be bought or sold in the US. Her case was dismissed after her return to the States.
Sanger cont’d to push legal & social boundaries by initiating sex counseling, & opening the 1st birth control clinic in the US in NYC, which led to her arrest for distributing info on contraception & condoms & diaphragms. S felt that in order for women to have a more equal footing in society & to lead healthier lives, they needed to be able to determine when to bear children. She also wanted to prevent unsafe abortions, which were common at the time because abortions were usually illegal. She believed that while abortion was sometimes justified it should generally be avoided & she considered contraception the only practical way to avoid the use of abortions. She had seen more than one woman who after begging for info from a doctor as to how to prevent pregnancy, ending up dying of a self-induced abortion.
In 1921, S founded the American B C League, which became in 1942, Planned Parenthood Fed’n of Am, and organized the 1st international population conference. In NYC, she organized the 1st birth control clinic staffed by all-female docs, as well as a clinic in Harlem w/ an entirely Af-Amn staff. She had found that Eur’n immigrant woman in particular would not go to a male doc for info, & that Af-Am women, at a time when they may be given incorrect info, or be in danger of sterilization, were more comfortable going to an Af-Am staffed clinic.
In 1929 she formed the Natl Comm on Fed’l Legislation for Birth Control, which served as the focal point of her lobbying efforts to legalize contraception in the US.
Many drug companies or college labs would not do any research on an oral contraceptive because of the power of the Catholic Church & their opposition to all forms of contraception. Sanger worked for years to encourage scientists to develop a hormonal birth control method.
Thruout the 1920s Kathrine McCormick, a 1905 grad of MIT, w/ a degree in biology, worked w/ Sanger on birth control & other women’s issues. McC smuggled diaphragms from Europe to NYC for S’s clinical Research Bureau. In 1937 K’s mother died leaving her an estate of more than $10 mill. Her husband died in 1947, leaving an estate of over $35 mill. In 1953 McC met w/ Gregory Pincus who had been working on developing a hormonal b c method for 2yrs. McC agreed to fund Pincus’ research. The FDA approved the sale of the Pill in 1957 for menstrual disorders & added contraception in 1960. McC had provided almost the entire $2 mill it took to develop & test the oral contraceptive pill. She cont’d to fund b c research thru the 1960s.
Sanger was past 80 yrs old when she saw t 1st marketing of a contraceptive pill, which she helped develop. But legal change was slow. It took until 1965, a yr before her death, for the Sup Crt to strike down a Conn law that prohibited the use of contraception, even by married couples. This right was extended to unmarried couples only in 1972. This constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy would became as important to woman’s equality as the vote.
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Wonderful, Jean!
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You may not agree with Margaret and Helen's politics. But Helen (the writer) really nails it on women's issues.
http://margaretandhelen.com/2016/02/08/there-is-a-reason-big-girls-dont-cry-we-havent-the-time/
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Yes! That was a terrific blog! So many young people have no sense of history of any kind, but especially women's history! We need to keep telling the younger generations what it was like, and how it is in many cases still!
I'm preparing for a four program series on women's history and it can be depressing to recognize that we are still fighting many of the battles that Rachel Carson, Margaret Sanger, Maggie Kuhn, etc were fighting 25, 55, 65 years ago. Yes, we have made progress in many areas, but we've been set back on many progressive issues over the last 45 years.
Jean
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I was so disappointed in Gloria Steinam who suggested the young women were voting for Sanders because their boyfriend was voting for Sanders - oh oh oh that is sure not giving much credit to these educated young woman - just look at the number of women who attend collage and graduate with far more than what used to be the degree of value, your MRS. - it is as if she belittled all her own work and we are no further along as individual women than we were 40 years ago in her hay day -
I do think Helen was reasonable however I am one of those who think the injustice that money in government is creating is far more important to tackle than to vote gender - it means the one representing gender in order to be voted into office must keep the big money coming that is keeping all of us in our place - I do not think we need to be sacrificing our role in this government to hold someone up on our shoulder who is tied into the very system that keeps us in our place.
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Helen tells it like it is.. Bernie sounds wonderful, but most of what he talks of can only be handled through congress and that is not going to change. As long as the conservatives decide to take down whoever is in charge, we will be mired in this mess. That is why Hilary might be able to at least start to move people in the right direction.. As much as I would love single payer, Americans are going to scream at what sort of taxes you need to pull it off and Big Pharma is throwing money left and right at pols.. We need to change our system and that is not going to happen.
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You nailed it, too, Steph!!!
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Helen's politics are MY politics, so of course I love her! Wish we could infuse her in Valentine chocolate and infect the world with her way of thinking!
But I find you just a tad more pessimistic than I, and that surprises me, since at almost 87 I consider myself MS Pessimist.
You see, I think we CAN get a one payer system of health care like our dear neighbors to the north. And I think we CAN improve in all ways.
We just have to do ONE THING: Wake the whole voting nation up to the fact that it is THE CONGRESS, and not the White House, they must have their eyes on when they are voting. They have to be taught, through their newspapers and radio and television, precisely WHAT their incumbents voting records are. It is not partisan politics to publish voting records in detail: it is information we all need to take in. CONGRESS retains the power to change, and we can force that change by beating the drums and sounding the cymbals regarding this fact; this truth.
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Almost half the congress is up for election and NOT re-election unless that is what we decide - would not take much for the shirt to happen - maybe not a revolution type shift but enough that we could get back this country out of the hands of the wealthy top who finance their election bids and as a result virtually run this nation so that is it no longer ever a Republic much less a Democracy.
Once we have a nation that supports itself as the Bernie Sanders entire campaign is supported we will have a chance of bringing back the middle class and our lives as seniors will have more dignity. That is all we need folks is a slight shift - Obama has already proven you cannot get anything done except by executive order and so why vote for someone who wants to follow in his footsteps - do you really think Congress is in love enough with Hillary to wrap their arms around her and cooperate with change - she is already using big money to finance her campaign - does not bode well for bringing back the middle class.
This campaign appears to be either folks in our age range versus those under the age of 35 - because they, with far more education than our generation see fairness and are struggling to pay for that education that we wanted them so desperately to acquire - Hillary is ONLY about making their debt easier to handle rather than getting back to the kind of grants and low interest loans for private collages that allowed students an education with minimal interest loans, and there were subsidies for collage research much less the dream of figuring a way to make higher education a priority as they do in India and south Asian nations.
Even if Bernie Sanders was a one term president he could make a shift that would allow the average American's needs to be addressed. Hillary would make a perfect representative to the UN and before long with her CEO abilities she could be president of the UN - If we want a CEO as president, Trump is a CEO who knows how to get results however, we prefer someone with a vision that we can all hang our star on and is about pushing the forces that are decimating the middle class rather than a competent person who is behind a certain segment of the population based on gender.
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This might be better in Political Process? But, in view of the discussion here, I thought it was interesting to see how younger women are reacting to the Democratic presidential candidates:
An open letter to older women voting for Hillary, from a younger woman voting for Bernie
I respect Gloria Steinem, Madeline Albright and all the feminist trailblazers. I'm still voting for Bernie Sanders
ALLISON GLENNON
Dear Older Women Insisting All Women Vote For Hillary,
Thank you for everything you’ve given us in your fight for women’s rights and civil rights through the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, your whole lives. As your female children, the younger generations of feminists, following in your footsteps, we do not take your efforts lightly. We know how much blood, sweat, and tears went into the long fight to ensure we have the rights we have now. We know many lost their lives fighting for equality. We will never forget. And, we will devote our lives similarly, by your example.
Because of you, we will never let anyone define our limitations based on our sex. Because of you, we will be strong in the face of those who’d seek to judge us by our gender alone and not by our minds and our hearts. Because of you, we promise never to let anyone take away or compromise the freedom we have today… not even you.
Everything you’re telling us now goes against everything you’ve taught us before, everything you seemed to stand for when you were young. Asking women to vote for Hillary based on her gender rather than policy is sexist. Telling women they’ll to go to hell if they don’t vote for Hillary is evil. Telling women that they are only voting for Bernie to impress guys tells us you no longer respect women.
We know the fight is uphill, but understand that this rhetoric makes you part of that uphill battle we are now fighting, part of the uphill battle that you fought, too. We understand the allure of a woman president after everything you’ve been through in your lifetime. But understand that based on the principles you’ve taught us, we know having a female presidency is less important than gaining true gender equality. Understand that we’re not willing to give up the values you’ve instilled in us for a trophy, even at your request.
Our experience following in your footsteps has taught us what real equality means and we will not be distracted by sexist attacks, even from you. With the strength you gave us, we will refuse to be guilted or shamed into voting for Hillary based on gender alone. Because of you, we will vote for policy, for mind and heart, not genitals because we know that to do anything less would undermine everything you’ve fought for, everything your mothers and your mothers’ mothers fought for and won.
Thank you for everything you’ve taught us and know that we won’t let you down. We’ve got your back, even if you don’t have ours.
Love,
A Millennial Woman Feeling the Bern.
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Bernie paints Wall Street with a broad brush - certainly there must be some who run decent companies/banks. Need to look at what is going on outside our country. So many problems that require a knowledge of foreign policy and Bernie seems very weak in this area.
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I wish I were comfortable with Bernie, but I am not. He is very typical of that part of New England.. but and this is a big but... He has not foreign policy experience and is not touching it.. That is why the letter from the younger generation is silly. We have serious international problems that need solving or we are going to have ISIS on our doorstep.. I am not voting for Hilary because she is a woman, but because she is smart and a good person to run the country. Donald Trump is a bad example of Wall Street and people who make their money in real estate. He declares bankrupcy any time he wants and slides out leaving investors to hold the bag.. I wish people would look up his record. Just the New Jersey part should scare most people, but they just listen to his stories.. This is not a good thing.
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My concern with both Bernie and Hillary are that they seem to act as though all these problems just arrived - or somehow caught them by surprise - when it seems to me they've both been a part of what's going on for nearly forever. I have to look into what committees Bernie has been on to see where he is in foreign policy. But I was offended when Hillary claimed she was an 'outsider' because she was a woman.
Trump is a businessman. He took advantage of bankruptcy laws protecting businesses and individuals. That's what he's supposed to do. If the laws are 'rigged' or 'unjust', they need to be changed. I know many individuals who have had to go that route as well and I don't necessarily agree with how it's decided what assets they are allowed to keep, but that's the law. He would have been pretty stupid not to protect his business.
I don't trust Hillary. And I don't trust her judgement - either in her personal life (what we know of it), in her work in the State Department, or even in her work as a lawyer. That, to me, is not the representation I want - not as a citizen or a woman.
But, for me, it's still really early; there's so much to investigate and sort out to make so important a decision. At least there seems to be some choice this time around.
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(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12046728_1083283201682295_6885799717149412744_n.jpg?oh=ea1b9a76662e51da953fce97e575aec8&oe=573864F8)
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You have to be so careful on the internet, don't you? I was confused to find this addendum:
Dear Tumblr,
This is NOT Susan B. Anthony. This is Ada Wright, a British suffragette who was beaten by police on “Black Friday” in 1910.
Ms. Anthony was arrested on November 5, 1872 for voting in the presidential election (straight GOP ticket) and fined $100. She never paid. She was also never beaten or photographed being beaten.
Great stories don’t need to be manufactured if they’re already great.
Thank you….and regardless the fight undertaken by women (1920), African Americans (1865 & 1964), Native Americans (1924), and other underrepresented groups for the right to vote is amazing and should be given recognition.
But please, please, please use Google’s reverse image search.
picturedept:
Election Day, 1872.
arcaneimages: ?
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Thank you for posting re Anthony. I have resided between Rochester and Buffalo for my whole adult life and yet had never really read her story about voting: it was utterly fascinating. It is too long to put in here, but this excerpt:
"Anthony's vote went to U. S. Grant and other Republicans, based on that party's promise to give the demands of women a respectful hearing. Later that day, Anthony would write of her accomplishment to her close friend and fellow suffragist, Elizabeth Cady Stanton:
Dear Mrs Stanton
Well I have been & gone & done it!!--positively voted the Republican ticket--strait this a.m. at 7 Oclock--& swore my vote in at that--was registered on Friday....then on Sunday others some 20 or thirty other women tried to register, but all save two were refused....Amy Post was rejected & she will immediately bring action for that....& Hon Henry R. Selden will be our Counsel--he has read up the law & all of our arguments & is satisfied that we our right & ditto the Old Judge Selden--his elder brother. So we are in for a fine agitation in Rochester on the question--I hope the morning's telegrams will tell of many women all over the country trying to vote--It is splendid that without any concert of action so many should have moved here so impromptu--
The Democratic paper is out against us strong & that scared the Dem's on the registry board--How I wish you were here to write up the funny things said & done....When the Democrat said my vote should not go in the box--one Republican said to the other--What do you say Marsh?--I say put it in!--So do I said Jones--and "we'll fight it out on this line if it takes all winter"....If only now--all the women suffrage women would work to this end of enforcing the existing constitution--supremacy of national law over state law--what strides we might make this winter--But I'm awful tired--for five days I have been on the constant run--but to splendid purpose--So all right--I hope you voted too.
Affectionately,
Susan B. Anthony
Arrest and Indictment
The votes of Susan Anthony and other Rochester women was a major topic of conversation in the days that followed. In a November 11 letter to Sarah Huntington, Anthony wrote: "Our papers are discussing pro & con everyday." Anthony occupied much of her time meeting with lawyers to discuss a planned lawsuit by some of the women whose efforts to register or vote were rejected.
Meanwhile, a Rochester salt manufacturer and Democratic poll watcher named Sylvester Lewis filed a complaint charging Anthony with casting an illegal vote. Lewis had challenged both Anthony's registration and her subsequent vote. United States Commissioner William C. Storrs acted upon Lewis's complaint by issuing a warrant for Anthony's arrest on November 14. The warrant charged Anthony with voting in a federal election "without having a lawful right to vote and in violation of section 19 of an act of Congress" enacted in 1870, commonly called The Enforcement Act. The Enforcement Act carried a maximum penalty of $500 or three years imprisonment.
The whole of the article is here: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/anthony/sbaaccount.html
I was most shocked that it was Republicans who supported suffrage and Democrats who opposed! Just as in rights of African Americans. Yet how the message was stolen and reversed. A real eye-opener to be sure.
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Now thats interesting. I never knew that the republicans were for and dems against, but I should have. My Mother was a national committewoman for the Republicans back in the Eisenhauer days. He was a wonderful man and not at all a good politicians, but he got things done the right way and scolded us when the people were busy being warlike, which he hated.. A truly great president, but if he were alive today, he would be horrified at what the republicans on the tea party side have been up to.
There does not seem to be a single republican running for President who is not totally into trying to take my rights away.. Maybe this Kasich person, who I must look up.
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That's so interesting, Steph. Actually, "I Like Ike" was my first remembered exposure to a presidential race.
I know Republicans are trying to limit abortions (80% of Americans agree); that is, to not have them 'on demand', but as Rubio has said, for 'self-defense' reasons (reasons recognized by the church as well), which most liberals and conservatives would agree on. Some people have tried to limit them to the first 20 weeks, since science tells us that at that point the unborn have a fully developed nervous system (they have responded to their mother's voice at 24 weeks, according to the Mayo Clinic) and feel pain.
Are there other 'rights' under attack? I believe those candidates who have talked about no abortions - for any reason (as Walker did), have already dropped out?
The abortion issue is not yet a settled one, and will continue to be discussed, I'm sure. Whether minors need parental permission, whether there should be some moderate time period between wanting and getting an abortion so it's not done impulsively and rued later, whether the 14th amendment (used in the suffrage movement) should cover the unborn as well (as I'm sure no one could have foreseen this debate?),etc.
Also, those who do not know about the growth and development of the unborn (as younger women do) can use Obstetric books in the library or on-line medical sites to view the stages. An informed public is imperative in doing the right and decent thing for all concerned. I've counseled too many women in agony years after an abortion to keep ignorant or silent on the matter.
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Oh well there are many women in the world everlastingly grateful for having had an abortion.
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The story of the Republicans supporting suffrage at the beginning of the 20th century was not stolen and reversed. It was the Progressive era and Republicans led by Teddy Rossevelt were in favor of many kinds of reform. Unfortunately, we don't have good history education, so people don't know the facts.
The parties philosophies have changed, not the story. The "other" Roosevelt - Franklin - began to build a liberal Democratic party. It continued thru Truman, Kennedy, Johnson and Carter, all supported women and minority civil rights. Democrats at their 1972 convention ruled that half of the delegates at their convention were to be women and minorities should be on par with their numbers in the population. Republicans on the other hand, after Ford, starting with Reagan, became more and more conservative and less and less supportive of social and civil rights and the Republican Party has moved further and further toward the right as we move into the 21st century.
Therefore, people, not knowing our history, THINK the present constructs have always been true. The story has not been manipulated, we just need to know the facts.
Also, women, throughout history, have always used abortion, sometimes, unfortunately self-induced, which often lead to their deaths, and at the beginning of the U.S. history it was not illegal. One of the reasons Margaret Sanger pushed so hard for effective birth control was to minimize the incidence of abortions. It seems, to me, a kind of insanity for those who dislike the idea of abortion to also fight against the ability for women to get effective birth control, ala Planned Parenthood, or sex education in schools, which has shown to minimize unwanted pregnancies.
Jean
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The 80% number is not even remotely true.. I am so glad that people can legally abort.. Too many lives were ruined ack in the bad old days, so yes, I think the issue is settled as if Marriage to who you choose.. and Rubio is well known in the state for being anti any kind of abortion including rape and incest.
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well I just have no patience with anyone who thinks they can tell a woman what to do with her body. She has to grow the fetus, she has to bring it up, so its up to her if she chooses to or not. Don't give me murder, lots of beginnings don't come to fruition. Abortion can be done with pills so early now that its really no one's business but the woman's.
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Oh, I so totally agree!
I was a Republican back when Ike ran. I worked my heart out for him, leading my small children and some others in the neighborhood up and down our community sidewalks in "Tykes on Their Trikes for IKE." There were also little red wagons. I was the Republican Precinct Chairman.
I am a Hillary supporter, but would like to point out that Senator Sanders proposes capping federal income taxes at 52%. President Eisenhower capped them at 90%.
I felt totally betrayed by my party, the GOP, in 1980 when the fundamentalists first got their claws into the guts of the party and put that anti abortion plank in the platform. I have not voted for a Republican since, and finally gave up hoping and changed my registration in 2004.
The last I heard, 93% of women favor their right to choose.
The thing is, the Republicans were always the party of the right to personal privacy and the wrongness of GOVERNMENT to intrude in our personal lives.
Then it is THEY who come along and champion this most ghastly intrusion! Imagine telling a couple that they MUST have yet another child, even if dire circumstances in their family tell them they absolutely cannot! Imagine telling parents that their poor little 13 year old daughter who is a victim of rape or incest must give birth!
No woman in this world WANTS to undergo an abortion. But there are circumstances in which it becomes a necessity. I have been very lucky in never having to have one. But IF I DID, no government office would get away with telling me I could not have one! No way! Well, I am almost 87 now, and have had a hysterectomy, so it is a moot point. But I STILL become enraged over the abortion problem as I do over no other subject.
Women have a legal right to choose in this great nation. It is a Minority of our fellow citizens who work 24/7 to deny us that legal right, even to the point of shooting to death doctors, nurses, and volunteers at clinics. These people identify so totally with the God they have created, rather than the God who created them, that they Justify murder of husbands, fathers, wives, mothers and daughters in an attempt to enforce THEIR religious beliefs on the rest of us! UNBELIEVABLE
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As for Donald Trump for president: SERIOUSLY? He is trash. TRASH! Do you want a President who makes us all look like ignorant know-nothings when he gives speeches full of really stupid statements and vulgar talk? I grant he might possess an IQ. Yes, and his daddy may have bribed his way through Wharton and so forth, too. It is done all the time. With cash money in envelopes, with paying others to take exams, with endowments, with giving new buildings. But Trump has NO CLASS. Not a speck of it. He is rude, crude, and unrefined. He will never be a gentleman, let alone a statesman.
Trump comes from the dregs of our civilization. He is a bully, a braggart, a foul mouthed liar, and a dangerous loose cannon. He may have all the money in the world, but you cannot buy refinement.
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I hate the title of this blog, but it is a good blog. I wish we could get men and women too stop using the "B" word. It is obviously sexist, nobody uses it about men, except as a "son-of-a......". I consider it as offensive as the "n" word. Anyway, this is a good column about the sexism related to Hillary and her campaign.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/h3hrk4t
By the way - the Savannah Book Festival is being shown on Booktv.
Jean
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A very good article. And yes, I too am of the generation that is put off by the constant usage of vulgar language. Many, many words we never would have dreamed of using in public or in mixed company are now bandied about on a daily basis and even used in advertising.
It totally blows my mind how successful the campaign to make the American public afraid of Hillary Clinton has been. So many people, including, and this breaks my heart, a myriad brainwashed women, when asked about her will say they just don't trust her, she lies, and all sorts of even worse mindsets up to and including believing she murdered Vince Foster. The late Jerry Falwell had his Liberty church send out 250,000 videos that declared her and President Clinton guilty of murder.
Actually, there is nothing but the ravings and rantings of a bunch of broadcasters, politicians of the opposing party, and preachers that says she is untrustworthy. There is NOTHING to back that accusation up; not an iota. There is no proof she has ever lied. Government investigators have said over and over she had no hand in Foster's suicide.
Hillary was an outstanding student from Elementary School through college and law school. The guys hated her for doing better than they. The ones who are firmly of the belief that the first in every class should be a male, that is.
Long before her husband ran for President, the American Bar Association named Hillary one of our nation's ONE HUNDRED BEST LAWYERS.
She was an outstanding First Lady, Senator, and Secretary of State. She has never been found guilty of ANY of the things the Right Wing accuses her of in a constant barrage of lies about her. Eventually, the History books will point all of this out, and she will be vindicated. In the meantime, we will continue to hear " well, I just don't trust her." Ai Yi Yi. The power of suggestion! I shudder.
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This is book sale week so I am just flat out exhausted, but oh my, the people clutching all sorts of books and anxiously asking.."This book is so large and beautiful, it must be more than 1.00". I do so love their faces, a teeny little black girl with a white Mom and she is very solemnly asking me if I know of any adult books for proud black woman, She wants to do a paper on it, so we looked and looked to find the exact right book. Book sales are the most fun...
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That sounds delightful Steph. How nice that she was looking for books about women who she could identify with.
Jean
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She was adorable indeed and her Mom was really helping her. She found two books, I still think that one was a tad old for her, but she fell in love with it.
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So, who should I believe? The families of the victims of Benghazi or Hillary Clinton? And why?
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Probably neither entirely.. They both have an ax to grind..
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Good point. Like my grandmother always used to say: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see".
Though I did see the emails to officials in Egypt and Chelsea explaining that the embassy was under a terrorist attack minutes after it began...
and saw videos of Biden and Hilary with the victims' families ...
and of interviews of journalists with the families ...
and - did you see the last Democratic debate? Where Hilary accused Sanders of criticizing Obama in the forward of a book, I believe?
I was watching it on CNN and the man who wrote the book was there - with a copy of the book; Sanders had written a blurb on the jacket (not the forward); it was read on air - it wasn't anything like Hilary portrayed it in the debate ...
still ...
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Truth is I cannot figure out a single politician who is telling the absolute truth this year.. I like old Bernie, but there is no way we can afford all of his programs and no way he could ever get congress to go along.. I know it wont happen, but you know.. that the best answer would be no more career politicians,, but nothing like Trump either.
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I saw a fact check on Bernie also - his claim that we all work harder for less money. It was shown that he was taking numbers from two different studies (the explanation of the claim came from the Sanders campaign headquarters) and so he was comparing apples to oranges. But listening to the debate,s and the Town Hall meeting last night - I hear two different explanations for Rubio's move on immigration and Cruz did misrepresent Trump's view on Planned Parenthood.
It's an important year to look at all their websites and hear all their points/counterpoints: a year for great discernment, not that that isn't important in every election - but especially so this year it seems. I did like the format of the Town Hall meeting better than the debates, though. It really gave each person the chance to explain more fully their thinking rather than just respond in sound bites and defenses from other candidates. For instance, it was the first opportunity I really got to hear Ben Carson's ideas more fleshed out. I wish the Democrats would hold one also.
Didn't the moderators of past national debates instruct the audience to save their verbal/applause comments until the summaries? I don't ever remember the kind of interruptive noise-making from the audience as there has been in the last couple of debates. The Town Hall was better that way also - much less disruptive.
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I asked myself the question what if I HAD to vote for a Republican or suffer dire consequences, which one of the entire original line up would I cast that vote for, and I wound up choosing John Kasich. And he is still hanging in there!
I can visualize Kasich meeting with the heads of foreign governments and impressing them favorably. I admire his command of language and the way he answers questions in debates and interviews with articulate views and no inane sound bites.
You have probably already heard about this, but I am throwing it in in the event that you managed to miss it. I think it is hilarious, and hope she pushes it through!
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2016/02/17/kentucky-viagra-bill
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The Viagra is silly and not real I hope.. it is as intrusive as anything I have seen.
I like Townhall meetings as well..
Trump is why the noise.. His supporters seem convinced that the louder they yell, the more people will join in and they are also quite vicious to those around them that are not Trump Supporters..
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Of course, this Kentucky legislators bill is a huge JOKE, but the point of it is to show the male state legislators how personally intrusive the bills they introduce regarding women's reproductive systems are.
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I am getting wary of the people who look at Marco Rubio as an alternative.. This man is really one way. He wants to ban all abortions, no matter what, even where the mothers life is in danger.. According to him, his religion has decided that.. boo.. You have to reach back in the republican side to John Kasich, who sounds a bit more reasonable.
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I watched the Academy Award winning short documentary last night on HBO: "A Girl In The River: The Price of Forgiveness." Astonishing to me, looking back, how many journalists and newscasters got it wrong in describing it. Obviously, they had either not actually seen it, or had not given it their full attention. It was said and written that it is about religion. It is most definitely NOT about religion! On the contrary, it is said right in the documentary that the tradition has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with male domination.
It is very real and very powerful. And very discouraging. I do not see how the mind set of the men in that part of this world of ours will ever be changed to see females as human beings and the equals of males. Women are disposable items that men own, and therefore have a right to murder and throw away. It is cultural, and runs deep. Nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.
But then I remind myself that women did not get the vote here in the U.S. until 1920. And we still have not been declared equal in the constitution. We were 2 states short of passing the ERA. Maybe one day our granddaughters or great granddaughters can rejoice in being declared equal under our laws. In the meantime, I should not feel so gratefully superior to the women of the Middle East and Central Asia. I strongly recommend you try to catch that short documentary. If you have HBO, you can watch for it there or find it on On Demand.
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It all stems from ethnic and tribal purity - the only way to assure tribal purity is to control women's sex lives - they are the gender who bear the children - this is ingrained in their economics - tribes are related families that some are small with only several thousand and others are in the millions - the tribes are the owners and investors of the land and the profitable commerce from the land and its minerals, including today Real Estate and industry - even what we would consider public parks are tribal owned with police being able to detect if anyone is attempting to use the park not from that tribe or is of mixed marriage and they are removed, forcefully if necessary. Goes back to the culture of tribal owned water and a tribal oasis.
Those families who are pure to the tribe annually profit from the tribal investments just as folks in the stock market received an annual check - if a daughter marries outside the tribe or has a child outside the tribe the entire family no longer receives their annual dividend check so that the men, fathers, brothers, even uncles will make sure their family, their women do whatever is the traditional way to keep the next generation within the tribe.
Without running to my library to get the books and authors there were about 5 books I read about this 2 or so years ago. The headscarves worn by the men designates their tribe and as the one book explained, today, the amount of pride shown as young men adjust their headscarves in the mirrors lining the various new buildings in Abu Dhabi was the tip off as to how this is the pride of tribal culture throughout the Middle East - Reading at the time it reminded me of all the mystic tied up in the hat culture among cowboys and ranchers, another group who maintain a traditional viewpoint for men and women however, their economic welfare is not tied to the behavior of women.
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But Barbara, this particular documentary of a true story is set in Pakistan. These peoples came from India originally, and they do not wear the headgear or conform to the same tribal traditions that the Arabs do. This is more the cultural mind set of the entire Indian subcontinent for thousands upon thousands of years regarding the value of women. They have no value. Zero. Nada. If their dowry money runs out, burn them. If their husband dies, burn them. If they are raped or dare to turn down the husband their father or brother chooses for them, kill them.
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Had not seen the documentary - I was sharing my understanding that goes to the root of how difficult the traditions will be to eliminate among those in the Middle East - as to India, from what I understand without having seen the documentary, yes this is basic to the culture but do not know where its start came from - their older religions do have goddesses but then so did Greek and Roman culture - some of the most horrific treatment of women seems to be in many of the African nations - and certainly Chinese women have to thank Mao and the communist revolution for their elevated position today however, over the past 20 years I have worked with so many from Asia, especially from Indonesia and they are still sharing jokes among themselves that deride woman and were popular here in the states, back in the 50s. Yep, I agree the average woman has a long way to go...
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The hugely disconcerting and discouraging thing, insofar as expecting things will improve for women in that part of the world, is that the Whole Dang Society is set up for this very thing. The law is that Even If the man or men confess to the killing(s), they are acquitted if the girl or woman "forgives" them. In the case in this documentary, the uncle and the father confess to shooting the girl in the head and putting her in a bag and throwing her in the river. And she swears she will never forgive them. But then, her new family harass her and harass her and harass her into agreeing to go to court and swear forgiveness, because they live in the same city and all of their neighbors will shun and disrespect them if the girl allows her father and uncle to be found guilty and spend time in jail! And the girl knows the men may well attempt to kill her again, if they are acquitted and free. But she cannot live with everyone haranguing her, so she gives in. And when the judge asks her in court if she forgives her father and uncle, she just says Yes, and that is that. Her own family feels they have kept the respect of their neighbors (even her mother felt the girl had dishonored the family!) and her new family feels the same. Only a few police and lawyers, who seem to have educations away from Pakistan, are appalled by this. The government of Pakistan accepts it as the way their society thinks about the status of women!
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You are probably wondering what the girl did that so dishonored her family? Well, she and her boyfriend went to the local courthouse and got married, because her father felt the boyfriend was of poorer, lower status and wanted to marry her off to an older man. She dishonored the family by marrying against her father's wishes and not marrying her father's choice for her, so her murder was justified and deserved and the two men got off scot free! All Pakistan knows one's daughters are one's property, and they have no choices of their own. To act as though they DO have choices is to dishonor and disrespect one's own family!
Such perverted thinking may well never see the light of change! And they may kill this girl yet, to regain the total respect of their community. Just as Malala has been told by the men who shot her on her school bus for daring to go to school there that if she returns to Pakistan, THEY WILL KILL HER! There's the thing, you see: to be respected and honored in your community in Pakistan, you must kill women who are of your own blood if they dare break the rules, two of which are do not go to school and marry your father's choice.
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Actually the European nations.. France and Germany and a few others are realizing the immigrants are carrying this mind set forward and they are truly horrified. I have been noting more and more that many of the young males are going back to the middle east. They were told by the people that got them there, that they could send for families ( not any more), get good jobs( no language experience) free houses on and on. They hate the food.. do not want to respect others cultures.. I just read an article the other day that a manufacturing plant in our midwest had hired a lot of Muslim workers and it was working fine, but then the workers decided they needed more and more religious breaks and now the company has rebelled. fired over 150 workers and is advertising for workers who understand that work is also important. The cultural divide is way too strong. We are lucky in that our immigrants mostly understand work and how the U.S. works..In Europe there is culture shock and it will get worse.
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Awful to hear. But again, I feel I must stress that these things are NOT anything whatsoever to do with their religion, except for the work breaks. These are cultural matters, and probably predate Islam by a lot. When you listen to what they have to say and look at the way they live, in that documentary, you at least come to see how the walls of difference may never, ever come down. Mind boggling, but there is truly a nation there in which only the men are citizens and make decisions and count. Women are just property men own and slaves to them.
But again, I think of some of what women in our own culture have had to cause to change, and I have a glimmer of hope. We can own property, go to school, work at real jobs (but not for equal pay as yet), and choose our own partners in marriage or whatever.
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Yes, you are so right - this culture is far older than Islam - the more you read about Tribal culture it is easier to understand the insular nature of protecting and fighting for the tribe. There is no concept of the individual - there is no one vote for one man - they vote as their tribal leaders will have them vote.
Just listened to a bunch folks visiting Versailles and creating a youtube of the various fountains that are all marvelous works of art depicting some of the Greek myths - from the accent you can tell the one taking the video that was uploaded onto youtube were mostly from Asia - they have no clue what they are looking at - all they see is water shooting from a statue - the western culture, especially in Europe sits on the past that includes these myths that are woven in so much of even current literature.
We have over a 100 families from Syria living in the apartments nearby and the elementary and middle school have gone over the top helping these kids learn English while they must attend their regular classes - as they learn they do not have the background of childhood stories that kids were told to them during nightly bedtime stories and are shown on kid's TV shows and in movies - none of that is part of their history aside from the horrors we hear about as they must write in their journal everyday using English - as they learn English the stories still convoluted are their natural sharing of their life that has been horrific. Even the manner in which they received any education was accompanied with a lot of physical abuse if they had learned something other than the Koran if they had been in Turkey and came back to Syria -
But I do take solace in that we all came here and our families all had to adjust and learn - for some it was easier than it was for others - I remember as a kid being a Jew was not easy - and the years we lived in Kentucky being Catholic was not easy, we see movies and documentaries and read how it was very difficult for Asians and so we now have another group with a different culture - I suspect it will take some time - it seems if we use the past it takes about a generation or 20 years.
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Wow - I really think we need to know this - The work that is done to make this the site we have grown to trust and love needs to be told - we should not take for granted the volunteer effort by those who protect us from behind the scenes.
Message this morning from Ginny, Administrator...
I came in, tho, to tell you what Marcie has done which has made such a HUGE difference to those who have to go after the spammers. She's incorporated a captcha thing which forces the bot trying to register to choose photos in response to a text question or something, it's brilliant.
Since the day she put it up there has not been one more spammer@!!!!!! NOT ONE! It's a miracle to come in here and not see on the top left hand of the page the numbers of "people" waiting to be hand checked. And if you would skip a day it would take forever to clear them. And on holidays it was a nightmare.
Getting rid of these scumbags is a tiring job. They sometimes sneaked in anyhow and Jane has been patiently winnowing them out. So great is the difference that the check for Spammers thing no longer comes up and I can't see how many we have manually removed but it was something like 248,000 or something. Jane or Marcie may know how to access that check screen, I don't, and quite frankly I hope I never see it again, but isn't that marvelous?
A lot safer for us, too, since the bots can't see the emails unless they are registered.
So hooray for Marcie for doing this and for Marcie and Jane ALL THESE YEARS manually getting rid of these people who need a job instead of trying to cheat us all. The last bit was from Russia I think?
Jane, Administrator
Incredible...but the number now is:
266852 Spammers blocked up until today
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OMG! I had no idea. It scares me to bits. Should I be eliminating my email address from my profile? Good Grief! I started with Senior Net in February 1999, and have all of this time had no idea that stuff even existed. What a scary world. And huge thanks to Marcie and Ginny and all who have labored. I won't say "so tirelessly," because obviously they must have been worn to a nub. As for Ginny's description of what Marcie did, it is all Chinese to me, but I am in AWE regarding Marcie's mental powers!
Which brings me back to the cultural differences regarding how women are seen by men in Pakistan and neighboring countries and here. I was just watching the local evening news, and they led off with not one, but two serious stories of women being killed by men. In one horrendous case, and yes, this is right here in the metropolitan Washington area, both a woman and her sister were killed. He had been jailed for a call about domestic violence, with her the victim. Then she recanted and actually put up bail money for him. It was not long after he got home that he killed the two women. The other story was just as bad in that the woman wound up dead, but there was nothing about her having enabled him to that extent.
Same old, same old. As I say, we may have won a lot of ground toward being equal and having rights, but the old culture still lurks in the hearts of men.
Where'd that come from? The old radio program, The Shadow?
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MaryPage we have ALWAYS been kept safe here on SeniorLearn and SeniorNet before that because of the work of some backroom administrators - no fear of sharing your email or phone since they cannot read our posts - nice feeling - so few offer this kind of protection - we have a lot to be grateful for...
What ever is the difference I am convinced it has to do with aggressive action for power - when men do not feel as powerful and they need to be - and I am not talking about extra or super power just the normal empowerment we all strive for - men who because of usually childhood experiences do not feel self empowered they chase power and the easiest is to go after someone weaker that they can taunt or ridicule and slap around - girls traditionally were expected and taught to be meek and mild so we were an easy set up - children can easily be a target as can the handicapped. It is how gays get ridiculed - seldom by the strong but by those who most often question their prowess as a man.
There is so many studies that show men need competition and for every win they do better the next time - that need for winning and the competition that is the engine for winning is not as important to a women who yes, likes to win but women do not appear to build on their wins - wins are something to be proud of but has no affect on the next race so to speak - most women compete over their looks, wealth, house, skills, but her basic self as a women is not strengthened by ridiculing and using sex against men much less women.
I do not know if that temperament was reduced because of natural selection or if it is part of the female - for sure there are aggressive dangerous women but I have yet to hear of one who was not brutalized herself and rather than proving her power she is in a revenge mode - but to have an entire culture for thousands of years using these reactions as the cause and way of life seems like there is no advancement in learning, as if everyone still functions on the emotional level of thousands of years ago. That to me is the question - why did some cultures change and others did not because for sure women in the west were treated not too much differently back before the Middle Ages and we still have a long way to go towards equality - the gains we do have required revolution, education and men experiencing women's work.
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For millions of years, the female of the species has given birth and nurtured and protected and raised and TAUGHT the young. Lots of lessons were learned about how to get along with others and how best to equip the young to survive and thrive. All this while the men were out hunting in groups, competing, bragging, exchanging salacious stories. Now it is pretty much built in, though I have known men I will credit with having sensitivities and logical thinking. All of that seems to be going backwards now that we have overpopulated our planet
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I had to laugh about the winning stuff.. It seems to have been left out of me. Some of it is being a quaker of course, but I just dont feel the need and will withdraw if someone tries to force a contest.. After we retired and our backs got worse, we took up kayaking.. The sit on top type.. I loved it but insisted on my own.. thank heaven.. i would dawdle along looking at fish and weeds and oysters, etc and my husband would go faster and faster. I finally said.. go ahead. I dont want to race and just want to look.. He would fuss and then take off and work off energy and come back later and join me,.. So I agree that men seem to need to race and win, but I just dont.. I note that I have one daughter in law like me and the other is a born competitor.. but we all agree.
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I took up kayaking every other weekend at a friend's place on the Nanjemoy River in Charles County, Maryland all during the nineteen eighties. Before that, I had only used a canoe, and boy did I ever love the difference. It was as though I were paddling my own body and could take it anywhere I chose. To the right of the pier I took off from, the wetlands soon ended and the river widened and widened. I never went that way. To the left, the river grasses grew ever higher, and it was such fun to paddle among them and realize I could hide in there forever. As the river grew more and more narrow, again the wetlands, home to one of the largest heron nesting areas in the world, became a small river, and then a creek with the trees along the two banks meeting overhead. Oh how I loved these private early morning journeys, and just to see a turtle sunning on the branch of a tree that reached low along the water made my whole trip memorable. I have felt the Joy!
Goodness knows, there are dozens of places around Annapolis where one can rent a kayak and enjoy. My own community here has boat racks down on the beach that are rented by the year, and Quiet Waters Park is 5 minutes away, where you can rent a kayak or a paddle boat by the hour and tour all around Harness Creek and the South River. Sadly, I am too old, but as I say, I have known the Joy and will have that always.
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I love Mosquito lagoon in New Smyrna Beach. It is a bird sanctuary and as long as you bathe in insectect repellent it is great. Yes, Kayaks are so much fun.. very intuitive way to be on the water. I had manatees and dolphins come right up and bump the kayak, not hard, just sort of.. who are you.. The manatees will rear up from the water to see you and you get this very inquisitive eye looking at you. They will swim along with you in the semi shallow water. Lovely memories for me..
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Lucky you! I never had manatees and dolphins, sob! But I did have turtles and snakes and fish and Great Blue Herons, plus white ones. Herons are fascinating fishermen. So patient and so STILL. Like you, I have my memories.
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John did white-water kayaking (on the rivers in E. TN, NC, SC, and GA) for years, until his shoulders complained too much. Then he took up sculling on the Tennessee River through Chattanooga. None of this competitive - just a chance to get away and on the water. Always such special times for him.
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I would go out alone early in the morning, spring, summer and fall. I especially treasured the summer mornings. I would go after the mists had risen, but before much of the world was awake. A small kayak for one, the kind where you let your body down into a hole, makes you one with the watercraft itself. When you paddle to go this way or that, you feel as though you are signaling your own body to go that way or this. As Steph says, I would explore all the little nooks and crannies of the shoreline and the water mazes running all through the acres and acres of tall grasses. The final effect is that you come to feel your heart is beating in sync with the heartbeat of Mother Earth herself: you are Gaia!
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MaryPage: I don't kayak, but I share the feeling through early morning walks in the woods. So quiet, that if an acorn falls, it's an event.
And I was blessed to live in a place that had some wildness left in it. I saw over 200 species of birds just by getting up with the sun and taking my cup of coffee out on the patio.
Have you heard the story of the man who, after hurricane Katrina, paddled a canoe around the streets. Because he was so quiet, he could hear cries for help that were too faint to be heard by the patrolling power boats.
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I love a walk in the woods above ALL things, Joan. And no, I had not heard that story from Hurricane Katrina, but it does not surprise me. Power boats make noise way out of proportion with Nature, and disturb the whole ecology dreadfully. There is absolutely no excuse for them revving it up the way they do. Have you ever noticed that a sailboat under power rather than under sail makes very little noise? Power boats do not HAVE to be the way they are, it is just that the mostly male buyers LOVE the roar. It is the noise of Power, and they crave it. Things could be otherwise, and should be as a gesture towards saving our planet. You can see cargo ships, cruise ships, yachts from all over the world, and every type of boat you can think of here on the Chesapeake Bay outside my windows, and none make the noise of the power boats.
One thing I do not understand about our human species is why we will not talk about or write about things we are in denial about. It has always seemed to me that we could make absolutely leaps and bounds in progress and save many, many lives if we would just talk truth to reason. But we don't. For instance, back in 1945 my dad was stationed in Louisiana for about half a year. And I can remember vividly that so very many people spoke of "when the big storm comes and we lose Nawlins." Yes, I heard it over and over; and so it was that I grew up expecting New Orleans to be lost under the waves one day. And the day nearly came, and I was old. But my head has been asking me since 1945, "well, why don't they all just move OUT of the way of that storm that's coming?" And I still believe that would be the saner and, in the long run, cheaper way to handle it. But they haven't seen fit to elect me to run things.
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That would have been disaster MaryPage - I forgot now how many billions of dollars of commerce go down the Mississippi to 'Nawlins' to be shipped out of that 'natural' port - States as far north as bordering Canada depend on that river for a large part of their economic health and the jobs in their areas that ultimately feed the trip down the river -
In order for those docks to operate and those ships to be loaded there is manpower needed and that manpower needs houses and food and places to send their children to school and hospitals and garbage pickup and and and - then those people providing that service need houses and food and places to send their children to school and hospitals and garbage pickup and and and - Nearby are those who fish the Gulf and those farming the land to catch and grow the food for New Orleans and they too need schools and hospitals -
We could go on and on but that is how a city is created - and yes, there is often an influx of too many and the jobs are not constant so that folks end up living hand to mouth -
This port was created some 2000 years BC - it was a port when French fur traders came to this Indian held territory that was on a trade route since the year 400. The natives had built levees which was the prime reason the French raised its flag making this official settlement with a fort only 100 years after the settlement at Jamestown.
The massive flooding with hurricane Katrina had little to do with the storm - the Army Corp of Engineers quietly owned up they skimped and there was graft so that the modern levees built by the Corp were not built to plan and could not stand the force of the hurricane along with the city foolishly allowing permits to build on the barrier islands. What happened during Katrina has been continually blamed on the storm rather than the real culprit - greed, graft and lackadaisical Corp oversight.
As Shock Doctrine quickly gave root to investors taking advantage of the numbed and devalued city, they eliminated New Orleans as a haven for the poor. Some wonder if the whole thing was a plan waiting to happen.
Instead of rebuilding the school system there are more Charter Schools for profit in New Orleans than the number of schools operating within the cities school system. Hospitals closed never to re-open as did Churches, many musicians never returned just as many everyday folks displaced never returned.
All because of inferior built levees needed to keep this city on a natural port that serves the entire Midwest from another great depression that would occur with no outlet for its agriculture or manufactured products.
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Oh my! That is all too much for me!
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quite true, but it is also true, that New Orleans is naturally way low and they pump to keep it above water. and the massive Lake Ponchatrain is always too high and needs pumping. The might Mississippi roars each year and floods almost each year somewhere on its path. We used to stay in a variety of places in the spring in the RV to watch it roar and get wild to watch. I am told by friends who visit at least once a year, that in many ways, the new New Orleans is quite wonderful.. It was too much of a favorite place for Tim and I, so I dont visit.. Too hard.
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I am upset tonight because I have two granddaughters and two great granddaughters in Oklahoma, and, while I have read a little about the fact that they have been having some earthquakes out there since the fracking has begun, I had no idea until today when I was reading the March 21st issue of TIME magazine that they had 900 in 2015 alone! Scares me to death. Devastating! The articles I have read previously have failed to include all the details, and in shortchanging the public have failed to raise the national conscience and the sense of alarm that should go with that. I have seen detailed diagrams in newspapers and news magazines about precisely how fracking works, and have read the warnings from many scientists as to the probable pollution of the drinking water supply and earthquakes and other good reasons to be against fracking. And so I, being a believer in Science, have opposed fracking. I just had no awareness that the State of Oklahoma had been so very dismissive of that Science for so very long a time and had been putting millions of citizens in serious harm's way to the extent that they have. You would think maybe ten earthquakes would set off the alarm bells in their heads; but NINE HUNDRED! What sort of world are we inhabiting these days?
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I too want to know what is happening in our world.. Donald Trump?? who is now bragging that Sarah Palin and husband would have prevented the San Bernadino massacre. Sigh.. People rioting. People being filmed smashing their fists in someone elses face. This is so wrong and is exactly what was happening in Germany and how Hitler came to power.. We need to take back civil behaviour.. The First Amenment does not mean to be dangerous.. Sigh.
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Oh Steph, we are SO on the same page. A President should, above all things, be presidential. Someone wrote a piece in our local paper day before yesterday saying that he and his wife had just come from a lengthy round the world trip (Annapolis is full of such, and I am green with envy) and that everywhere they went Trump was On The Front Page of their newspapers and magazines and TV news shows. And the citizens of this globe think we have lost our cotton picking minds. And some heads of state are saying they just won't meet with him. Scheesch! They said that almost everyone everywhere asked them about Trump and were just terribly relieved to hear they were not fans of his.
I heard Trump say he would pay the legal fees, if any are needed, for that old guy that punched that demonstrator. The demonstrator was doing absolutely nothing but being led out of the hall the rally was being held in. I am just SO ASHAMED! I thought Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau twitting us in the Rose Garden that he heard a lot of us were making plans to possibly come to his country to live was a hoot, but it also should have made Trump's followers stop and think. Or not. One, they weren't watching, because President Obama was there with him. And Two, they would just say good riddance!
Did you catch the rally last night where Hilary Clinton had a long interview face to face with Chris Matthews? I watched it TWICE! They repeated it at eleven, I think it was. He did it at seven and then repeated it at eleven. She was fantastic. Fabulous. Answered every single question clearly and without any hesitation whatsoever. Her explanations for Benghazi and every other such question should settle everything they say about her forever. Of course, it won't. It won't because her detractors have no interest in whether the lies told are false or not. They just feel filled to the brim with hatred and desperately WANT the lies to be true. They are perfectly willing to perpetrate the falsehoods indefinitely, hoping against hope that a majority will believe them.
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I can see this as one step further than is not being talked about - this is what is happening to our entire political system only we do not see it - it is money - big money is running our country - Trump is self promoting - he has all the money he needs to make this a game - he and his money have ruined the Republican Party - he simply destroyed the entire party - he is baiting the ugliest aspect of humanity within the voting public and using a technique well known that takes hold in a mob - they did survey after survey some 20 years ago with the mobs that broke through the fencing around the English Football fields that we call soccer and they call football. The conclusion of these surveys is that folks act differently and their worst characteristics come out in a mob as they need to better the damage done by another in the mob.
The use of big money is what gives Congressmen the power to not do their job for the people and to satisfy only those who give them money under the guise of re-election funds and trips for the Congressmen and their family - Money has so corrupted this nation it is sickening - if you read about those who own the private jails - they use their money to make sure that Congress enacts more laws that would incarcerate so they can keep their jails full. On and on it goes as money is used to make rich folks richer and to suck the profits out of this nation and to bait folks into bad behavior because that is what this is for Congressmen - baiting them with money towards bad legislation or bad behavior.
It is no different than the police using these bait cars to tempt those in the poor sections of town - when do they ever bait with something that will inspire goodness - no it is always baiting the worst aspect of humanity - well money is baiting the worst in Congress and money is baiting the worst among voters and money ended up baiting the anger and rage that some folks just needed that bait no different than some in the poor area of town needed a car to bait them into jail time.
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I had never heard about bait cars. Sickening.
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Yes they purposely have a plan clothed policeman get out of a vehicle without locking the door and leaving the keys in the ignition and then an unmarked police car waits across the street or behind some trees but nearby and waits with a camera on the vehicle till someone gets in - some get in and change their minds - others get in and a group gets in with them but most get in alone and then they drive off with the police behind them so that in a couple of blocks they are stopped and of course handcuffed etc.
There is regular TV program showing this in many many cities. The police waiting for the culprit have all sorts of disparaging remarks they make and it is on TV about the people and their appearance while they are watching the bait car being stolen.
I keep wondering when do they set up some bait that if taken leads to the one taking the bait being kind or thoughtful or brings out the good in people - even the poor and desperate have good characteristics - when are those good characteristics baited...?
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That is so sad and so wrong.. I dont like having a car stolen, but they are tempting the people for no reason. We had a van stolen from our driveway some years ago, but they jimmied the lock and then popped the ignition.. We had not parked it in the garage the night before with our other car because we had gotten home late and tired. It was teens and the little brats had stolen stuff on the whole street, put it in our van, drove to the next development and promptly hit a light pole. What a mess. Took the police hours to sort out what belonged to who.
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This is sad news as well:
LITTLE HAVANA (CBSMiami) — As President Barack Obama boarded Air Force One for Cuba Sunday, crowds marched in Miami’s Little Havana against the presidential visit to the communist nation.
Demonstrators rallied on S.W. 8th Street and 13th Avenue chanting, “Libertad!”
Florida Lt. Governor Carlos Lopez-Cantera was at the march. A first generation Cuban-American running for U.S. Senate, Lopez-Cantera said the president’s visit to Cuba is a photo-op that the Castro regime set up to legitimize themselves — and, since easing U.S.-Cuba relations more than a year ago, nothing has changed.
“There hasn’t been any reduction of oppression,” Lopez-Cantera told CBS4’s Donna Rapado. “As as matter of fact, there’s been an increase in oppression, an increase in political arrests and an increase of political beatings against people who are simply seeking to have rights that we take for granted here in America. Freedom of expression, freedom of the press, free elections, the end of human rights violations and the release of political prisoners.”
In fact, just before Obama’s arrival, more than 50 demonstrators were arrested in the streets of Havana. They are “Las Damas de Blanco” — the Ladies in White. They are the wives and relatives of jailed anti-Castro activists who march to Mass each Sunday, as they have for nearly four years.
Video showing police pulling and dragging the women as they chanted for freedom only fueled the anger those against the president’s visit already feel.
“I hope tonight somebody talks to Obama about what happened in Havana today,” Angela Bueno de Godinez told Rapado. “That’s impossible. A disaster.”
Some say promises have not been kept.
“The president promised he would visit Cuba when changes were made toward human rights,” said activist Carlos Puig. “Changes have been made. For the worse.”
The rest of the story is here:
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2016/03/20/rally-held-in-little-havana-demands-cuban-libertad
Change comes slow...sigh. I do hope it comes soon.
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We can't help Cuba change - in oh so many ways - if we aren't talking to them. We can have so much more influence with the people and the government if they are having contact with people from outside their dictatorship. Seeing options can be a cracking of the door to wanting different lives AND it provides an interest and an education to many Americans who never give a thought to Cuba and what is happening to Cubans.
I'm very happy Pres Obama is shining this light on Cuba.
Jean
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Miami cubans are all for someone else solving their problems.. We certainly have dialogue with worse nations.. I am old enough to remember Baptista and he was certainly not a good dictator.. Cuba must solve their own problems.. not Miami.. I live in central Florida and I know a number of people who are very excited about the opening of Cuba.. So not all cubans are against it. I think the roundup was wrong, but the Castro brothersw are always a bit paranoid.
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Tyranny, dictatorships and oppression of peoples is all wrong, not to mention that Communism has proved to be a failed system of running a state. It is also wrong to punish the people of any given state for the crimes of the leaders guilty of oppressing them. As long as Cuba has been cut off from the world, it has been so much easier for the dictators to control that society. With tourists and trade, any given society will have much more opportunity to set itself on the path to freedom and individual rights. We know that Cubans yearn for more opportunities to live the good life, and common sense tells us that in time they will be able to achieve that. We are only helping the dictators when we cut off any sort of normal relationship with Cuba. The Cubans who fled to asylum in the United States are fat and happy in Miami, and of course they want to punish the Castros and their coterie; but hey, what about the suffering of those who could not, for one reason or another, get away from Cuba?
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I had not heard that the Castro brothers had a successor chosen - so this may be the end of it and with our getting involved now we may be in a better position to have influence for what comes next. Obama always did have the long view...
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Steph - and all. One of the benefits of SL is having people from many places around the country and the world to give us the different perspectives of events. My perception is that not all Cubans hold the same opinion -as with all groups - but it is good to hear a Floridian perspective?
Jean
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Oh I do agree Jean, it is just that the cubans in Miami seem to get all of the publicity and there are a lot of cubans who feel quite differently about it.. I know people whose parents fled Cuba before Castro because the previous dictator was closely associated with the Mafia.. I know others who fled Castro..Its just I get so tired of Miami reacting as if they were the only important ones..
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Hope some of y'all have a sunny day on tap for hunting for Easter eggs peeking out as brightly colored bits scattered in the green grasses and under the budding bushes. Ours is a drab, misty, grey, grey one. I find myself wanting to exclaim Bah Humbug and then return to my cosy bedding.
However, Debi's gaily decorated home beckons, so breakfast, shower and dress up I must. There will be twelve (last I heard) for dinner, and everyone will have an Easter basket filled by someone or other. Debi does most of them, but I did several myself, and I happen to know that she herself will have two, one that I did and one from her very pregnant daughter Kathryn.
While I yearn to see and hug everyone, I know that I will welcome reaching home again and settling down in my favorite chair for a respite from all the to do and hurrah and catching my favorite Sunday night shows.
I shudder at the dreadful indignities the wives of prominent politicians are having to suffer in the public eye, even in these "modern" times. It just serves to remind us that we are not all that far removed from the lives of women in the Middle East and other parts of this globe we inhabit. Still, somewhere in the hearts, indeed the very fiber, of men lurks the certainty that we become their personal property when they choose to wed us, and our looks and accomplishments are but a reflection of their own "taste in women." It is sad to my whole persona that I will not live to see true and complete liberation.
But today's young women give me hope! Did you see, did you SEE, that young women are protesting, not just in every state here except the ones that have seen the light, but in Australia and other nations, against sanitary supplies being subject to sales taxes? In some places it is as high as 10%, and yet sunscreen and condoms are tax free! And of course, Viagra is not taxed. Yet the men in some parliamentary debates and legislative conclaves laughed out loud at the notion of making women's tampons tax free! What a ridiculous thought! In our own nation, 40 states still add sales tax to these articles of personal hygiene, listing them as "luxury" items.
This is what has gone on since we stopped making and washing and rewashing our own diaper like contraptions. This is the result of men running things. Do you remember how fast, how very, very quickly, Viagra and like products became covered by health insurance policies? Sigh. We really DO need women running things in this world.
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MaryPage, I agree about the hygiene products - but in TN, any product purchased is subject to sales tax - hygiene products, OTC medications, even toilet paper - no discrimination here. LOL
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I guess I never bought condoms, so I never realized they were not taxed.. I do remember that Viagra got approved very rapidly by Health insurance places. Shows you that men rule in the insurance world.
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In speaking of the disparity of perceptions, I came across this article. Taking its source into consideration, it is well-documented and does lead to a real discussion of the health care issues developing over 'female circumcision' on the rise here; pretty disturbing:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/27/stephen-miller-exposes-faux-feminism-cnn-panel-facts-muslim-migration-open-borders/
Sigh...I expect soon some well-meaning someone will come up with the idea that the practice should be legitimized with the understanding that these girls will at least have access to medical care - and anesthesia. Though it's likely to also encourage the practice.
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I was unable to open that. VIPRE came up and said not to, as it has a "bad file" in it.
Here are a couple of videos that show exactly what occurs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSNEgLgvzUY
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mark
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Maryland, where I live now, is one of the most sensible states in our beloved Union, albeit far from perfection IMHO. Our legislature is currently fighting like mad over Equal Pay For Equal Work. Blows my mind, it does. Actually, it was voted in as law a week and a half ago, but the more hot headed are still battling it out. It passed our house 93 to 47, and yes, some Republicans voted YES! Hurrah! But here is the thing: every single one of the 47 against is a Republican! And their chief argument, which they repeat over and over and yet over again, is that it will have a bad impact on small business. My Aunt Fanny!
If a small business has a bookkeeper, and that bookkeeper is a woman, she cannot claim, as the only bookkeeper, which is usually the case in a "small" business, that she is not being paid as much as the male bookkeeper, now can she! I mean, there IS no other bookkeeper. And while the Republicans are crying crocodile tears for small business owners, many many of whom actually ARE women, those in favor of Equal Pay are hollering: "How about the women? And how about their families? What about the impact on THEIR quality of life?"
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Last night on FRONTLINE on PBS they did a show on Saudi Arabia that everyone would benefit from seeing. It is a one hour show without commercials, as always. You might want to look for it in repeats or catch it in On Demand. It has been, for the most part, secretly filmed by a bunch of brave young men. It really, truly paints a picture of the various push and pull factors within that nation, and I found it quite scary. It is also not for the faint of heart.
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yes, The various Chamber of Commerce people drag out the bad for small business for the stupidest reasons.. They really mean, it is bad for the status quo.
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Bottom line, women are STILL being classified as lesser human beings than men. That, and only that, is what it comes down to.
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This evening I had occasion to check on the year the Ivy League schools began to admit women, for an entirely different project, and was astonished at two things. One was that their doing so was spread over a great number of years, but the other and most important and mind blowing was the excuses they gave when women applied over and over and yet over again. Here are some. And yes, I am serious. I am NOT making this up. You can Google it for yourselves:
Admitting women would cause them to lower their standards considerably.
The close approximation of all those young men and women would lead to trouble.
There would be legal difficulties due to the young women claiming breach of promise.
Breach of promise. "He swore his undying love and promised me a wedding ring. Then, after I gave in to him, he dropped me." That was the closest they got to sexual harassment in those days. One never said sex in public!
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I know it was serious MaryPage, but oh my that was a funny funny statement. Did people really believe that??
Well the Donald put both feet in and then drew back.. He really does not like women and all of those women in his audiences need to understand that. He likes what he considers sexy women, mostly foreign, so they always agree with him.. He said flat out.. twice to Chris that he thought women who ha abortions need to be put in jail.. Sigh.. and of course the minute everyone jumped on him, he retracted.. Ah publicity, they name is Donald Trump
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Just a thought about the 'equal pay for equal work' argument earlier:
I wondered if anyone here was aware that there is a large group of women who are NOT in favor of this. They know they get other benefits - ones they do not want to give up - for the extra pay. I guess they could argue that, just because they are doing the same job as a man does not mean they are working the same?
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Oh...and I am very sorry you couldn't read the article I posted earlier. Here are the cites used in the article - you should have no problem opening them? Thisis such a problem here - right here in the US - and apparently in the UK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/us/genital-cutting-cases-seen-more-as-immigration-rises.html?_r=0
And:
"As Newsweek reported in February of 2015, immigration is “the sole factor for the rise in numbers”:
More than half a million women and girls in the U.S. are at risk of undergoing FGM in the U.S. or abroad, or have already undergone the procedure, including 166,173 under the age of 18, according to the Population Reference Bureau (PRB). Immigration to the U.S. from African and Middle Eastern countries—where the practice of FGM is a deeply entrenched cultural tradition—is the sole factor for the rise in numbers, says Mark Mather, a demographer at PRB who led the data analysis. There has not been an increase in the practice happening in the U.S. itself, he says…
African immigration to the U.S. has doubled every decade since 1970, with more than 1.8 million African-born people now living in the U.S., according to Census data. Immigrants from Ghana, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Egypt, all countries that perform FGM(also known as female circumcision), accounted for 41 percent of total African immigrants. According to the latest numbers, nearly one in five girls at risk for FGM in the U.S. are from Egypt, which tops Somalia as the most at-risk country… Immigration to Western countries where FGM is not traditionally practiced means health care providers have had to adapt to the harmful medical consequences of FGM." the full article here:
http://www.newsweek.com/fgm-rates-have-doubled-us-2004-304773
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/05/2012528102139893735.html
Here a girl describes what she went though. Horrific! And it is happening here and now - to American citizens.
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All Trump did was be so outrageous he got all that FREE media coverage - as we know it does not matter if the coverage is positive or negative it is all about getting the coverage - he is down in the polls for this next state primary and he needed to push himself into the public again - if you notice today he retracts what he said and so another round of Free press plus the silly folks who pass this stuff on in social media - all it is doing is spreading his name and unless you are for him it is falling right on his smarts of how to 'use' and 'take' -
Reminds me of that book 'The Cave' by Robert Penn Warren that was made into a movie with Kirk Douglas playing the journalist who keeps the guy trapped in a mine so he can milk the publicity - the movie had a different name 'Ace in the Hole' - all he had to do was write about something that got the interest of people - like years ago we would all run after the bell clanging firetrucks or crowds would encircle an accident and kids would arrive on bikes, scooters or roller skates and the adults would come running.
He knows it is human nature to turn on the Telly when the news has something outrageous to report - so he just gets more and more outrageous.
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I have read an awful lot of books and articles, too many actually, about FGM, but my favorite so far is the one about the American woman, Molly Melching, who went over to Africa and did something about it. Quite a lot, in fact. I think the big lesson everyone involved in trying to stop this ghastly tradition can take away from her experience is the simple matter of what works and what does not. Boils down to practicing a lot of patience and not doing a whole lot of proclaiming. Her book is However Long The Night.
Yes, Steph, they actually believed those things. And many men STILL DO! Women are just frail, fairly stupid baby making machines. I even saw a letter a woman applying to grad school at one of the all male ivy leagues got from the university she applied to. They turned her down BECAUSE SHE WAS MARRIED, stating that she would never use the degree and the place should go to a man, because he would!
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A new Tesla is coming next year and for just $35,000. My dgt keeps pushing me to think about a Tesla, she says I'm the perfect candidate. A charge lasts for about 40 miles and most of my daily treks are 20 mi or under. Now that they are bringing the price down it might be an option. I'd love not using gasoline, but I need to do some studying about the trade off with electricity. Afterall, electricity sometimes is generated by fuel also. Do any of you have any knowledge or resources about that?
Genital mutilation is a terrible thing and needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis in the US. "At risk" is a nebulous term. I don't know what that means. The issue is not solved by inhibiting immigration. It would be the same to say white male cops have on occasion killed black men, so we should fire all white male cops. It's irrational.
We could write a thousand page book just listing all the stupid things "establishment men" have said to try to keep their traditional male - powered world.
Jean
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They do think and speak the most amazing "facts" about women, but the one that took the cake for me was that man, wasn't he a doctor, at that, who was running for, I think a Senate seat, and I think out in the MidWest, who said women couldn't get pregnant from rape, and therefore if they DID get pregnant, it wasn't rape! Scheesch!
I remember just after World War II, when the troops were coming back home, there was a loud clamor for all women to quit their jobs and let a returning MALE vet take their place. This was proferred as both a patriotic necessity and, of course, as the guys needing the job to support their families. Not a word was said about the women supporting THEIRS! And many of the women were widows of men killed fighting that war. I tell you what, in this society of males and females, it is ALL ABOUT THE MALES. All.
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In my last session of women's history i presented at the library it was sub-titled "women scientists" and the last half was about women "computers". That's what they were called, just as the women who were hired to demonstrate the new-fangled thing called the typewriter were called "typewriters".
You may have been seeing stories about Ada Byron Lovelace over the last decade. She's been rediscovered from the 1850s. She was the first computer programmer. She never actually programmed a computer, but wrote a critique on Babbage's "difference engine" which he invented to do long calculations. She had the vision that with the right algorythmns it could be used for all kinds of things including composing music. She said anything that could be configured into numbers (alphabet, music, etc) could be "computerized" not just to be calculated, making software as important as the hardware. Even Walter Isaacson in his new book "The Innovators" calls her the first computer programmer.
During WWII, the Army had many new ballistic weapons and needed to provide a the logistics of trajectory for each one. It took about 30 hrs for all the trajectories of each cannon to be determined on calculators and there were thousands, so they put out a call for all mathematicians. Many men were already on projects so they recruited women. It was still too slow, so in 1945 2 men at the Univ of Pa were tasked to build a computer that would do the job. When they had it build, it was called ENIAC and was 80 ft long and 8 ft tall and was not programmed.
https://www.google.com/search?q=eniac+pictures&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=RxJ-GhtPTG5vKM%3A
6 women volunteered to program it. They started from scratch - no one knew how to program it. They had no books, no training, no direction, just the schematics and the machine. THEY DID IT and when they finished it took a couple seconds instead of 30 hrs to make a table of trajectory for a weapon.
When the govt started telling women to go home to make room for men, no men knew how to program the ENIAC. The Army begged this six women to stay on the job. They were the first professional "comouters", the first computer technicians, the first instructors of what to do with the ENIAC and modern computing and the inventors of the tools that paved the way for modern software.
2 of them teamed up with Grace Hopper after the war and developed the commercial computer UNIVAC. Grace Hopper developed the language COBOL which used words, not numbers in programming, leading straight to you being able to say "Seri, what is..........."
When the Army had the p r extravaganza introducing ENIAC, the programmers- all women, were not introduced!!! They had their pictures taken with ENIAC as you can see in the link, but people assumed they were models, making ENIAC look good, the way they placed models in appliance ads and people actually calked them "refrigerator ladies." They were not invited to the dinner that all the guys in the dept went to that night to celebrate!!! AND they were not invited to the 50th anniversary of ENIAC at the U of Pa in 1995.
Another "men afraid of women's success" story.
Kathy Kleiman, a computer student at Harvard heard this story and went looking for their story and made a documentary about them.
http://eniacprogrammers.org
So in the future when you think of computer programmers, i hope you think of women FIRST and then men.
Also in that presentation I talked about Sally Ride who got asked questions like "will being in space effect your reproductive organs?" And "do you cry when things go wrong at work?" And "how do you feel about being with all these men?" (I think there were all of 5 men) And of course Phyllis Schafly was concerned about separate bathroom facilities! 😜
So, yes, we can fill 1000 pages with stupid ideas about women!
Excuse any mistyped words, this was a long one.
Jean
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Jean, I assume you meant the 1950s.
And personally, I think we could fill 10,000 pages. 100,000!
But that underlines the insults women have had re the workplace FOREVER! I am convinced it was WOMEN who invented agriculture. But the men have taken the praise.
It was on the news on both ABC and NBC tonight that the Women's Soccer Team for the U.S. is bringing in MORE money and being paid one fourth as much! Oh, but then, the women don't have bills to pay, do they!
Your story about the women programmers reminds me of the WASPS. The WASPS even had to shell out of their own pockets to bury their dead! Obama finally gave them medals, but there were not many of them left from WWII.
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Jean, you mentioned Ada Lovelace. I just read about her in the book I'm reading - "Rain, a Natural and Cultural History", by Cynthia Barnett. The section of the book is talking about the problems with rain and the early cars. Initially, around the turn of the 20th century, if it was raining, people had to stop the car, get out, and wipe off the "wind screen" - no windshield wipers as we know them today. Society belle, Mary Anderson, Birmingham, AL, decided to do something about that. In 1903, she applied for patent for " my invention relates to an improvement in window-cleaning devices in which a radially swinging arm is actuated by a handle from inside a car vestibule...A simple mechanism is provided for removing snow, rain and sleet from the glass in front of the motorman." I.e., windshield wipers. In 1917, another woman - owner of her own business - Charlotte Bridgwood of NY was awarded a patent for the first automatic windshield wiper. And Barnett also mentions Rosaline Franklin, biophysicist, first to photograph DNA double helix.
These women are there - glad that you're helping to make us aware of them, too.
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THREE CHEERS FOR JEAN!
MAKE THAT FOUR FOR GOOD MEASURE.
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Actually MaryPage, when you think of American Indians, the women were the farmers, men the hunters and I suspect tht carried back a long long way into history.
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Well exactly, Steph!. It goes back further. Back before Mesopotamia. Women were the food gatherers who stayed close to the children, and men the hunters who went off for days at a time. Sooner or later it MUST have been the women who figured out the seasons and the seeds and that they could plant their own stuff and stay in one place called home.
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there is a lot written these days and even a display at the museum at UT that women hunted in a different way - from bones found at archaeological sites there are more rabbit bones found than any from larger animals and the conclusion is that rabbits were caught in nets set by the woman - even today in the Northwest there is among the Indian culture uses for rabbits to not only eat but their fur was used for all sorts of traditional clothing including hats and gloves for babies and young children. Older women catch rabbits as their way of being useful past the time they can assist with the drying of fish.
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I remember when touring in Colorado and Utah in our RV going to some sites with a guide and them showing us the small holes high up, which was where the tribes put their seeds sealed in a seed pot( I have several pots) and then set off during late winter early spring to somehow survive and not eat the seeds. Always struck me as practical, but also sad.
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For a second I thought I was in a time machine and didn't realize it was no longer 1951
http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/science/texas-goper-opposes-bill-promoting-female-scientists-because-god-didnt-make-us-equal-video/
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Hmm, The Sunday political news shows are all dancing on the heads of pins.. Very funny in some cases.
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Marypage - You wrote "I assume you meant 1950s". I assume 🤗 You're talking about my comment on Ada Lovelace, no, she lived in the 1800s, was the dgt of Lord Byron and yes, is now considered to be the first computer programmer based on her comments on what algorithms could be used for. Her Notes were lost until being talked about in a book published in the 1950s and has since gotten much publicity.
Thanks for all the interesting tidbits on women in history.
I've been having to sign in every time I come to SL even though I've indicated to be signed in "forever". Anyone else having that problem?
Jean
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No, I don't, Jean. Did you recently do a scan and clean out your cookies? It sounds as if you're computer isn't retaining them.
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Thanks Jane, I'll check on that.
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Ah, the joys of cookies.. Sometimes wonderful and other time a pain ...
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Awesome!
You see, we do not cause standards to be lowered at all! Quite the contrary!
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TY Barb, she's added to my women's history list.
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And a fantastic addition she IS! Woo hoo! Good on you, Barbara!
Maybe you can work it the other way around to pick up a few more, Jean. Check out the Noble Prize list for Women and then find out stuff about them by way of Google.
I just gave my scientist (Biology, Save The Bay, Oysters) granddaughter, Melissa, a book by a woman named Hope Jahren, whom I believe I remember also won a Nobel. She is still alive, and the book is LAB GIRL.
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No, Jahren has not yet won the Noble, but she sure has a lot of awards.
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If you get HBO, this is the night they are showing CONFIRMATION at seven Eastern Time. All about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas. The critics are liking it.
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It was on last night, too, MaryPage. I don't get HBO, but our system is giving us a free week, starting tomorrow. So I'll get to watch it then.
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Everyone should just admit it: women are just better human beings :P
This is a good article with important info, but all you need is to read the headline.......
http://womensenews.org/2016/04/would-fewer-people-get-killed-if-more-police-officers-were-women/
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Oh Goodie.. Monica Lewinsky is back to get more publicity for sleeping with the President.. Oh poor Monica.. bullied, picked on.. but then show a man your thong underwear deliberately and bad things will happen.
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Only she never "slept" with him. He told the truth when he said "I never had sex with that woman." At least, in the way we meant "have sex" when I was growing up. I have no desire to go into the intimate details, but if they had been a married couple, either could have gotten an annulment on the grounds the marriage was "never consummated."
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What about Kathleen Wiley, Jennifer Powers.....etc....etc. I never really understood how Bill Clinton seemed to get a pass on such hateful behavior toward women. It still frosts me every time I'm reminded of all (or at least what we've heard about) he's done; including having parties with a billionaire pedophile (Jeffrey Epstein) on his boat, flying in his private jet, receiving large donations ....utterly disgusting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561378/Bubba-grope-accuser-says-Hillary-Clinton-IS-war-women-Just-pack-bags-Youve-15-minutes.html
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Mary Page, thanks for mentioning "Confirmation". We have HBO and I thought it was a good movie and well done. I really enjoyed watching the original news clips with Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, etc.
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I knew instantly Anita Hill was telling the truth. The whole thing was so familiar to me as a story I had not only lived myself, but had heard so many successful women, including my own mother, tell over and over again.
As for the men, who knows how many of them thought it was truly a vicious attack on the sterling qualities of a man nominated by a Republican President, and how many understood perfectly from experience that this is the seamy underside of women in the workplace. Why else do you think that a majority of men held the line for thousands of years and refused to allow women in their clubs, professions, schools, armies & navies, and so on and on? Just recently I was reading about their protestations that women being admitted to Harvard would mean those hallowed halls would have to see a lowering of standards, plus everyone KNOWS how dangerous it is to have young people of the opposite sex together in the same place!
I was "tried" innumerable times, and by men I otherwise liked and respected, as well as those I detested. The various little scenarios and so forth that they would come up with to try to "score" with me were many and sickening. I truly came to understand that, despite my wanting to think better of them, the first and most impelling instincts these otherwise talented human beings experienced was their sex drives. The urge to mate, and to score with a number of women. And there is something perverse going on, as well: their proclivity for twisting their own basic instincts into it all being the woman's fault just for BEING! There was also an element of mixed admiration and chagrin regarding a woman such as myself who dared "take a man's job" and "work in the world of men." As a newspaper reporter, bank officer, and political and civic activist, I stood many times where they were accustomed to seeing only men stand and speak. Oh, many times I felt such disappointment mixed with humiliation, and wondered why I seemed to be signaling a sexual drive of my own. Over and over, NOTHING was further from my mind! Well, I got through it with my reputation intact, but too many did not, and I'll tell you what: I knew it when I saw it.
I still have the fat scrapbook I made up from the beginning to the end of the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas matter. I titled it: "SHE TOLD THE TRUTH!"
And I say all of this with complete and total sincerity of the soul. For me, this is not political at all. Fact is, I was still a registered Republican at the time. This is a serious social problem, and one that needs to be LOOKED at in the full light of day, admitted to being the quicksand that surrounds the daily activities of women working to make a living, and incorporated into our laws and culture in such a way as to protect women from the hazards threatening them by the culture as we know it now.
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I always believed Anita and could not bear that noone else did.
By the way.. Mogamom, Bill Clinton was neither the first or last President that had a female thing indeed.. and he is not the candidate..
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I was screaming at my tv last night watching a panel about opening all combat positions to women. I'm not going to speak to that issue in general, but what so annoyed me was one if the women panelists saying that having women in the unit disrupts unit cohesion and that 17% of military women get pregnant which breaks up the cohesion!!!! So we should keep all qualified women out of some jobs because some COUPLES - yes, it takes two - get pregnant!?!?
I happened to have facilitated Preventing AIDS Training for the Army in the late 80's and know that at the time there was so much fear of AIDS that the policy was that if you were treated for an STD you were ORDERED to always have safe sex. If you appeared with a second STD, or your partner named you as the person who gave them an STD you were punished, poosibly dishonorably discharged for disobeying orders! Why are they not extending the policy to pregnancy? Why are they punishing all women because some men refuse to wear condoms, which the military says they are supposed to ve doing, or because some women are not protecting themselves from pregnancy? There is, of course, a policy about co-habitation btwn officers and enlisted personnel which apparently no one is enforcing either.
So this woman is saying putting men and women together in units just brings out our "human nature" to have sex! Really!?! I have a human nature to eat pizza everyday, but I can restrain myself from doing that. There was a lot of talk about the best units having the most go-get-em masculinity (they didn't use that word of couse, not PC these days) and therefore women would have a negative impact! Not one person in the 1/2 hr that I listened said "men need to be taught restraint" or "couplesneed to be disciplined". Altho one guy did suggest that this was the same discussion in 1948 when they were saying whites would not take orders from black officers, so therefore units could not be fullt integrated.
Do these people ever listen to themselves? Do they have any sense of how they blame the victim?
YES, I BELIEVED ANITA HILL. I also facilitated Pevention of Sexual Harrasment training. At the time every military and civilian employee had to attend, apparently that has dropped by the wayside also, along with enforcement against s h. Woe is me! We have gone backwards.
Jean
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Jean, yes yes, yes... Why is it only the women who get the punishment.. Takes two for this stuff, last I heard. I had a short term job many years ago that dealt with army officers every day. I was young married and happy in my marriage. I got so many indecent proposals and hints that they would swing business my way, that I quit.
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Well, exactly! Back in my day, it was a stark learning curve for me to discover that the vast majority of males in the workplace think first and foremost of seducing as many women as possible. The men of this world are in vast denial, albeit as I have sworn to before, my Bob totally agreed with me and always tried to (and succeeded in) promote women he worked with. When I worked in a bank for several years, we gals used to wonder why it was that we did all the work. It was true: we did! The guys spent as little time as possible at their desks, and the rest on the golf course and in various bedrooms. And they got away with this and made the fat salaries! Scheesch!
But again, the Army has been in such denial for so very long. In World War II the WASPS had to pass the hat and bury their own dead because the Army didn't even want to admit they EXISTED and were piloting planes, let alone that some of them crashed and died in the line of duty! All this has been cleared up and admitted to and publicized now, in President Obama's time in office!
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I just heard on the news that Harriet Tubman is going to replace Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill!
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no sense of history! Glad to get rid of AJ, but how about a suffragist to commemoratate the 100th anniversary of suffrage in 2020 - 100 yrs!
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/us/women-currency-treasury-harriet-tubman.html?_r=0
But I like the idea of more than one person. Get out of the rut of tradition. Try something new, I like that.
Jean
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I am not UNhappy, but Margaret Sanger was and remains my first choice, with Eleanor Roosevelt my second. Apparently the Broadway hit HAMILTON made them decide he was too valuable a Founding Father to replace!
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I am with both of you.. Dont see the Tubman, but this is the year of the minority and just being a woman does not seem to count.
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This is a link to editorial cartoonist, Bruce Plante, for today's cartoon. Plante was at the Chattanooga Times, now at the Tulsa paper. He's one of the best.
http://planteink.com/cartoons.cfm/id/150326
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That cartoon is sad...but true!!
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I totally agree!
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I have watched the HBO film CONFIRMATION two and a half times now, and the fire within me that has been burning ever since those hearings back in 1991 is beginning to sort itself out into a kind of unwritten textbook, if you will.
There are basic truths about the human animal that our culture forbids us to address. One is that we, like all other animals and life forms that have evolved here on this particular planet in this particular star system, have Life primarily to reproduce our species and die. All religions and their stories and admonitions aside, that is our orientation. And the male is historically the aggressor in this scenario and has evolved to be so. Programmed to spread his seed, but NOT to take personal responsibility for the results, he has perfected a hit and run system. Every male knows this and most of them, even in our enlightened age of utilizing our large brains, go with the flow and, at all costs, cover up for one another. They feel it is for the Greater Good of All Men that they must close their eyes and allow women to take the punishment, and ALL of the punishment, for the results of male aggression. Women are, after all, only vessels for the planting of male seed, and menials to do the disagreeable chores.
So every man on that committee was anxious that this topic not come up at any time in their careers in the public eye. They wanted to shove it back under the rocks that exist in their subterranean world existence. That world, under those imaginary rocks, if we could but lift them and see, is full of THEM, lifting their human faces up to the light in horror, with their trousers down around their ankles. Hundreds, thousands, millions, Billions of them. Underground. Under the surface of civilization as they have fashioned it. They fight unfairly in order to preserve the status quo. No man in a position of power can be exposed to the keepers of the historical records, because any one of them might be the next in line for that! Same exact automatic reflex as made the bishops of the church simply transfer the pedophile priests. And just as the easy out made pedophiles flock to the priesthood and multiply the problem, so shifting the onus to WOMEN at all costs has made the world more easily controlled by our politicians and preachers.
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MaryPage, I just finished watching "Confirmation". Excellent production. It was difficult, and brought back some memories. John was still working for DuPont at the time, and they had several sessions on sexual harassment after that time.
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Want to see the film, but dont have HBO.. Hmm, maybe netflix will pick it up.
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Our cable system (Comcast/Xfinity) just did a freebie week of HBO. That's how I got to watch it - On Demand, too, so at my timing.
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Mary, if you are still in that free week, try to catch NOTHING LEFT UNSAID. Anderson Cooper and his mother, Gloria Vanderbilt in a documentary.
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MaryPage - I've already watched that one. Excellent!
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Their documentaries alone make the channel worth paying extra monthly to get them. And the show VICE, which is similar to 60 Minutes, is great. Chip got me hooked on Game of Thrones a couple of years ago, and I watch GIRLS in a state of horror and disconnect as I realize this is who my grandchildren's generation largely are. I started GIRLS both because of all the awards it was winning and because the NBC News anchor Brian Williams daughter plays a major part. One of the best things HBO ever did featured Frances McDormand in Olive Kitteridge, which also won a lot of awards. Oh, I could go on and on, but I am a huge fan of HBO.
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I guess I always look at the movies on the channel guide and realize I dont care to see them.. and I dont like Game of Thrones. Hated the books.
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Frankly, I never read any of the books. Not to my taste. Can't say I am relishing the television series, but I do find it addictive as to the characters and countries. Once bitten, as the saying goes. I am a huge fan of Peter Dinklage, and of quite a few of the other actors. Diverting.
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If you repeat a lie often enough, people will forget where and when they first heard it and accept it as gospel truth. So it is with the myth that Hillary Clinton is untrustworthy.
I have often mused on the FACT that Hillary's emails would have been open to the Russians, and probably the Chinese, on the State Department server, and not on her own. And remember several things here: one is that Bill Clinton already had the server set up in their home for HIS convenience, another that she had been advised by previous officials to use her own server, and finally that Colin Powell and Condi Rice, both Republicans and the only previous Secretaries of State to use email at all, used THEIR OWN SERVERS! Previous to these, there WERE NO Secretaries of State using email! I mean, next thing you know the Republicans will be claiming that Our Founding Fathers did not have their own servers. Nor did they!
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I think they are referring MaryPage to her secret way of working when she was attempting to do Health Care and since it was learned that she worked with the various insurance companies as she was putting together the proposal and when Congress got wind of it they hit the roof... but then during an election year they are going to twist whatever they can to blacken the other side.
We have a big fight going on here in Austin over the Uber people trying to defy city law that anyone that drives another in their vehicle needs to have their fingerprints and background check down and filed with the FBI - every Real Estate agent in this town had complied but Uber does not want to - they even attempted to get one of our city council members thrown off the council - they want to just have their own background check be sufficient - they have all these ads saying it is the city that does this check and it will come from out taxes - the city has not means to do this check - it is done by a private company and cost $12 for just finger prints and for a combo finger print and background it costs $25 and they send and receive the information from the FBI but to gain votes they are saying it will become a city expense -
Same thing as national politics - trying to sort out the lies is a lost cause but bottom line I think there are other things that decide who you will vote for and these sound bites in TV and in the news mean very little unless you are against the candidate and need a quick one liner to justify your dislike.
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No one wrote a poem about her..Women have always been amazing and for years men tried hard to ignore their contributions to life.
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For those wondering why people don't trust Hillary Clinton:
author Peter Schweizer ... took a prominent place in the political conversation for months. Clinton Cash: The Untold Story of How and Why Foreign Governments and Businesses Helped Make Bill and Hillary Rich became a surprise bestseller.
Everyone I've heard - or read quotes on - who were interviewed after voting for Sanders said they didn't trust Hillary - and it was all about her e-mails (90,000 so far), foreign money, and selling influence to domestic and foreign individuals/groups.
The relationships of the Clinton's to those being 'outed' in the Panama Papers (which have only begun to be searched), adds fuel to that fire. Hillary has a very high hill to climb to gain any trust, I fear.
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And my opinion is that it is all vicious propaganda. If you link the word untrustworthy to a name long and often enough, it will stick in the so called minds of the American public. Everyone forgets actual events within a two week news cycle, but say something over and over again, for instance that Gerald Ford was clumsy (he was actually an outstanding athlete), and every soul will buy into it.
Personally, I trust Hillary Clinton more than all the others put together. No, that does not describe it well, as I do not trust most of the others AT ALL. Let's just say I trust my beloved country to her, and her alone. Or Elizabeth Warren, and Hillary has more of the necessary type experience.
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Oh my and I see Hillary and Elizabeth Warren poles apart.
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This is all of our beloved country. I stopped trusting Hillary - politically speaking - when she mysteriously 'found' a pile of FBI files that just happened to be on congressmen deemed her husband's 'enemies' on her coffeetable in their private residence.
But, more importantly to me, I stopped trusting her as a woman when she defended her husband and attacked his many victims using many of the same terms I've often heard used on victims of sexual abuse.
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Oh for heavens sakes.. She loves him.. pure and simple. Silly... wrong... but true. Her eyes soften every time he is close.. She is not the first and wont be the last who used the private servers.. Already a few higher ups are admitting they do and promise to change.. When Trump is the alternative,, think about it.. You really want that horror as your President. For the first time in years, I am willing to go out and fight for her.
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Ditto what she said.
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As a survivor of sexual abuse - and a therapist dealing with others on all sides of the issue - NO! She is a horrific choice to carry the banner of the first woman president! In my vast experience working in the field, it is seldom about 'love'; it's much more about personal survival. She has spent her adult life building a life around this particular man with these skills - and has benefitted immeasurably from them; it appalls me that women are still falling for this stuff! And here she is passing out the 'woman card' she plans to run on. It won't work - most women don't trust her either, that's the draw to Sanders!
Bill was raised essentially by a single mom - and he certainly knows how to get around women; it's the 'boyish charm' persona that women love. A lie. He's a vicious, uncaring sexual predator - but he's much more charming than the old stick-in-the-mud conservative Clarence Thomas who women have no problem attacking.
So, let's at least be honest. If a liberal woman is abused by a conservative man - well, of course we'll believe her and defend her to the hilt. But if the man is a charming liberal, he can do anything he wants to any woman, conservative (preferably) or liberal, and we'll attack the women. Just let's be honest about what it is really about, this 'war on women'.
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https://www.hillaryclinton.com/contribute/donate/om-official-woman-card/
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Exactly! A sign of desperation - and anti-women - to not be able to run just on your record. Sad, really. What an embarrassment! :-[
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In my opinion Hillary Clinton is the best qualified. I've voted for both Democrats and Republicans but no Republicans this time.
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I still like Ike!
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I think Hillary has the record to run on. She is a politician, so her campaign will take many approaches, just as the other candidates are doing.
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Oh MaryPage, so do I and if he were alive, the republicans would not have him around.. I like Hilary and will vote for her and go out and campaign for her. Sexual predator... hmm, well on the other hand, we have THE DONALD who discards his women if they are not models, not v ery bright and seem to adore him.. sigh.. Not a choice for any woman.
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You are so On Point, Steph! Trump has never repented a thing in his life (publicly, that is. I am not privy, thank goodness for small mercies, to his private life), and has dumped many women, including 2 previous wives. This one is younger than his oldest daughter! And he is an infamous womanizer.
Yes, it was distasteful to discover Bill Clinton could not resist a come on. But in reading what was written in the past, I have gathered he was strongly enticed. Monica wrote quite frankly to the point that she attempted to seduce him, and not the other way around. Remember her describing tweaking her thong, or something? I am not versed in how that works, as I have never worn a thong in my life. But this is the thing: Bill Clinton has repented. Big Time! And if his family has forgiven him, surely we can! I remember words that told us to, I believe in Matthew: "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
Finally, I kind of sort of think we really need to concentrate on the qualities of Hillary Clinton, who obviously loved and forgave, and, according to Scripture, therefore stands to have been forgiven her own sins, whatever they may have been. The more hate that her enemies spew out against her for forgiving her very own husband, the less forgiveness those same holier than thou souls will receive. Not according to me, but check out Matthew 6.
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What makes anyone think he has repented? You really don't think the Monica Lewinsky - the star-struck intern - was the only other woman in his life?
To repent is to accept responsibility. He got caught - not at all the same thing. All those women did not entice him; he was - and is - a sexual predator. For instance, he groped Wiley - not at all enticed, and his attentions were not reciprocated nor appreciated, but repulsive; he has even been accused of rape. And these reports were made from many in Arkansas as well as Washington. Remember, Hillary said all women should be believed.
And look how the media still covers for him! When Hillary's accused of enabling him, they talk about his 'naughtiness'! Naughtiness? Like, 'boys will be boys', I guess. And maybe those journalists are just jealous of what he was able to get away with? It's sickening.
I don't know if Trump will be the nominee, but he gave an honest response to what he most regretted in his life at the Town Hall where he told us all that he had not been a good husband. He believed he had been a good father, but not a good husband, and that was something he regrets and has worked hard to change. And I do believe that he knows the global business and banking world like no one else running.
For women everywhere who have had to endure the Bill Clinton's of the world, and the Hillary's who would sell out anyone for her own gain, I agree with the ABC plan - Anyone But Clinton. I think of all those mother's who so feared losing their safe little home - or their status, or their pride, or their security, etc., who turned a blind eye to their husband's sexual harassment/abuse. I don't hate anyone; nor do I doubt the power of forgiveness. I do hope their marriage is restored. I pray they have a happy, blessed life together. But God does not require me to trust someone who has repeatedly shown themselves to be untrustworthy, as both of them have in regard to so many issues. Honestly, I have looked carefully at the qualities of Hillary Clinton and find nothing worthy of the office she is seeking.
I'm happy you've found someone to believe in. I am deeply sorry she's the one.
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hmm, so you really feel that Trump is being a good boy. He never has been, why would he start now ... and if you want someone who knows banking and is intelligent. Elizabeth Warren is probably number one in my book.. Trump now has to scam. Look up his records. look at the elusive businesses that he get into enticed people who invest in and then came up clean.. No. if you vote for Trump be prepared to deal with a man who has no grip on any sort of reality except his ego.
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TRUMP UNIVERSITY was an outrage!
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As were many of his business ventures - a Real Estate development in Florida went belly up - the golf course he was planning in Scotland - the Scottish people decided his rude behavior was no longer being tolerated so the golf course will not happen. And just how many times did he take bankruptcy?
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I sometimes think we women can't win. Stand by your man, you're weak and enabling. Kick him out, you're mean and vindictive. Speak softly, no one pays attention. Speak up, you're shrill. Etc.
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Oh, you are so absolutely right!
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The old shrill drives me nuts.. How about shouting.. do men get called for it.. Hillary is fighting for what she believes in..
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Hillary is fighting for what she believes in - Hillary. Only Hillary. You can 'stand by your man' without attacking and smearing and threatening the many women who were harmed by him. She was obviously protecting her own interests. She threw every sexually abused woman under the bus to protect her own interests.
And why doesn't she just turn over the speeches she made to the big banks as Sanders has repeatedly asked? There is just too much 'coincidence' in her wheelings and dealings - the large sums donated to the foundation while she was Secretary of State and, even then, the presumed next president. Money...money...money - from everywhere and anywhere.
Trump was not a politician - he was a private citizen developing a business. He filed bankruptcy - as the law allows. As have many. Maybe the laws need to change? But I know private individuals who have filed for bankruptcy to get out from under a pile of debt. Are they all evil too?
Bottom line, Trump would not be my first choice for president. But Hillary wouldn't be my first - or last.
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Cannot resist.. Trump has declared bankrupcy several times and has started using his name in many places. A lot of them collapsed and he came out with money and the people who invested came out with nothing.. Going bankrupt once is a misfortune and many people have to, but he used it as a weapon.
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I don't know how you are defining his bankruptcy as a 'weapon'? I don't know. I'm assuming most corporations/businesses have insurance for these kinds of things, but it is certainly still hurtful.
But Hillary has a record that she's running on. She says now that Libya was a 'mistake'. Along with Libya she also has to run on her actions in regard to policy in Syria, Egypt, the Arab Spring, ISIS. Well, Trump's mistakes have cost people, I'm sure, in time, money, convenience, and opportunity. Hillary's mistakes cost people their lives, their country, and in thousands of cases (with the great migration to Europe) their homes, families and livelihood; not to mention the toll it is taking on countries attempting to respond to the crisis. And I don't suppose the Israelis are thinking that our deal with Iran hasn't cost them big-time.
And she says she's focusing on creating jobs, although she also says she wants to continue - and build on - the present administration's work. Well - we have 95 million Americans out of the labor force and 40% on food stamps. Many jobs 'created' appear to be those needed to enact the ACA (which is now falling apart - on its way to single-payer as everyone guessed, though Gruber? explained how stupid we all are) in the Health Care System and IRS. Which policies exactly has she decided are working so well that they should be continued?
And - again - I'm not an advocate for Trump. And being from New York, I'm certainly not unaware of how things often 'get done'. After all, Sheldon Silver is going to be sentenced soon. And now we're faced with the investigation of the Buffalo Billion (it seems solar companies are being used to pay off favors; how many have gone bankrupt now? with billions of tax-payers' money?).
I don't know if Trump is going to be the Republican candidate; and I don't know if he will do as he says - there's, of course, no guarantee. But if Hillary does do what she says - and what she has already shown us by word and deed that she wants to do - well...I can't think of a worse thing that could happen!
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You are not liking the idea of Hillary as President so who is it you prefer mogamom - would like to hear some positive views for someone that would make a satisfactory president.
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Is that 40% of the 95 million on food stamps, or 40% of the population? That 95 million not working or looking for work includes students and elders, according to Politifact. And for sure 40% of the entire population is not on food stamps.
Just some of the numbers that we all need to look at and put in perspective. Just as we need to put into perspective Hillary Clinton's role - her detractors give her a tremendous amount of power and responsibility for things that happened over the years and under other peoples' watch.
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I will check those numbers more closely.
I want to think through my response to you, BarbStAudrey, as it is a good question deserving a well thought out response. I thought I would respond last night, but the political stage changed pretty dramatically - and quickly; and apparently there is more change planned for today. But I'll respond in the political process site, as it is more political than women's issues.
I will say that Hillary Clinton is cited as the author of the Libyan issue, and she has taken credit for setting up the Iranian deal. She can't have it both ways - she enacted the administration's policies and has made it clear that she intends to continue - and build on - the president's policies. If she objected to those policies she was expected to work through, she could have made that statement and stepped aside. She didn't.
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Number of Jobs — The economy has added 851,000 jobs since we published our last report. As of December, the number of total nonfarm jobs stands 9,265,000 higher than when Obama first took office.
That compares with the nearly 23 million jobs gained during the booming years of Bill Clinton’s presidency, and the fewer than 1.3 million added during President George W. Bush’s eight years, which were plagued by two recessions.
Unemployment Rate — Meanwhile the unemployment rate went down again, to 5.0 percent. It’s now 2.8 percentage points lower than it was in January 2009, when the president first took office in the midst of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
Historically, the jobless rate is significantly lower than it has been most of the time since 1948. The historical median is 5.6 percent.
Long-term Unemployment — The number of long-term unemployed — those who have been looking for work for 27 weeks or longer — has dropped further since our last report. The number went down to less than 2.1 million in December, which is 614,000 fewer than when the president first took office. But it is still 761,000 higher than it was in December 2007, at the start of the Great Recession.
Labor Participation Rate — The labor force participation rate, which is the portion of the civilian population that is either employed or currently looking for work, ticked upward since our last report, to 62.6 percent in December. But it is still 3.1 percentage points lower than when Obama took office.
Contrary to many of Obama’s critics, however, that decline is due mostly to factors outside the control of any president — factors such as the post-World War II baby boomers reaching retirement age. Survey data published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in December show that those outside the labor force in 2014 said their reasons for not working were retirement (44 percent), illness or disability (19 percent), school attendance (18 percent) or home responsibilities (15 percent). Only 3 percent said they couldn’t find a job, or gave some other reason.
Job Openings — The number of job openings has declined only slightly since our last report, when it had peaked at the highest level in the 15 years that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been tracking it.
The latest figures from the BLS show there were 5,431,000 jobs open in November, down 4 percent from the revised peak figure recorded in July, but still up 97 percent over the month Obama took office. The number of job openings now has exceeded 5 million for 10 consecutive months, after being below 5 million every month since January 2001.
Profits & Markets
Corporate Profits — Corporate profits have soared under Obama. After-tax profits were running at an annual rate of just under $1.8 trillion in the July-October quarter of last year, the most recent figures available. That’s down somewhat from the previous quarter — which was a record. But still 166 percent higher than in the quarter just before Obama entered office.
That quarter’s profits were unusually low, ravaged by the Great Recession. But even compared with the best quarter prior to his taking office, which was the third quarter of 2006, after-tax profits are up 27 percent.
Consumer Prices – Overall inflation in consumer prices has remained moderate over Obama’s more than six-and-a-half years in office, rising by only 12.4 percent between January 2009 and November, the most recent month for which the Bureau of Labor Statistics has released the Consumer Price Index.
The average yearly rise under Obama of 1.9 percent is less than half the post-World War II average, according to BLS figures. Between 1946 and 2008 the average yearly rise in the CPI was 4 percent, measured from December to December. In the most recent 12 months, the CPI has gone up only a little more than 0.2 percent.
Real Weekly Earnings – The recent low inflation has helped the buying power of weekly paychecks. The BLS measure of average weekly earnings for all workers, adjusted for inflation and seasonal factors, is 3.4 percent higher in November than it was when Obama first took office.
(Note: This figure may be revised slightly in our next report. The BLS is currently recalculating figures for January 2009 and for several earlier months, after discovering a data processing error. For this report we are still using as our starting point the figure that BLS originally published. The revised figure won’t be available until Feb. 5.)
Food Stamps
The number of people receiving food stamps dropped again since our last report, by nearly 142,000. As of October, the most recent month on record, nearly 45.4 million Americans were still receiving the food aid, now known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.
That’s 5.1 percent lower than the record level set in December 2012, but still nearly 42 percent higher than it was when Obama took office in 2009.
But as we noted when Republicans called Obama the “Food Stamp President,” 14.7 million people were added to the food-stamp rolls during George W. Bush’s time in office. By comparison, the net gain under Obama now stands at just under 13.4 million — and it’s slowly declining as the economy improves.
Health Insurance
The number of people lacking health insurance continued to decline since our last report, according to the most recent data from the National Health Interview Survey conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
During the first six months of 2015, about 28.5 million people of all ages reported being without coverage at the time they were interviewed, the CDC reported in its most recent quarterly report. That’s down from 43.8 million during all of 2008 (see Table 1.1a), a drop of 15.3 million people since Obama first took office.
As a percentage of all U.S. residents, the uninsured have dropped to 9 percent of the population in the first half of last year, from 14.7 percent in 2008.
Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Employment, Hours, and Earnings from the Current Employment Statistics survey (National); Total Nonfarm Employment, Seasonally Adjusted.” Data extracted 12 Jan 2016.
Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey; Unemployment Rate, Seasonally Adjusted.” Data extracted 12 Jan 2016.
Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey; Number Unemployed for 27 Weeks & Over, Seasonally Adjusted.” Data extracted 12 Jan 2016.
Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey: Job Openings, Seasonally Adjusted.” Data extracted 12 Jan 2016.
Bureau of Labor Statistics. “Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey; Labor Force Participation Rate.” Data extracted 12 Jan 2016.
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I make no claim to being a whiz at mathematics, but the Department of Labor says 45,400,000 Americans received some sort of assistance from the food stamp program as of January 2016. And the World Clock says our population is now 323,488,810. So I make that out to something around 14.03% of us who are getting such assistance. Please assist me here and check out my figuring.
Politicians throw out any figures they "figure" they might fool the public with. You know that old saying: "Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure!"
Please correct my figuring if I err.
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323,488,810 X .1403 (14.03%) = 48,620,368.143
45,400,000 ÷ 323,488,810 = 0.1403448855000579 (14.03%)
48,620,368.143 - 45,400,000. = 3,220,368.143
48,620,368.143 ÷ 323,488,810. = 0.1503 (15.03%)
3,220,368.143 ÷ 323,488,810. = 0.0099551144999421 (00.99%)
It has been too many years but you were supposed to be able to prove your numbers by working it backwards and here I got different numbers by about 1% - but regardless it appears your number 14.03% does match.
You might want to double check by finding someone who has been in school for the last 10 years and does this new math - let them figure the numbers using their new math and see what they get.
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Great work! Did you find this at the Bureau of Labor Statistics site itself, or is it from an article about their statistics?
For those who gave up looking for a job: retired (many took an early retirement package), in school, home responsibilities?, or disability? I've also seen numbers suggesting those out of unemployment have ducked into a disability category. And I'm hearing many women (especially) returning to whatever work they can find (usually part-time) to 'help out'. They also don't count those people under-employed. There have been many part-time jobs, that's true. Places around us are now counting 25-30 hr/wk as 'full-time' employment, which I've never seen before.
I understood that we need a minimum of 300,000 new jobs/mo. to keep up with those entering the labor force?
We are experiencing inflation - especially in food and clothing. Our social security did not see a cost-of-living raise (because there is presumably little inflation?), but 15% more has been taken out for medicare.
Also, new housing start-ups have significantly decreased, there is a higher percentage of millennials living with parents/grandparents stating they can't afford to live on their own, and our GDP was at last report at 0.5%
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Thank you for that report MaryPage, very interesting.
I wish "new housing start-ups" would decrease even more, we're losing too much open space and farmland in NJ and.unfortunately the new homes in our town are taking up 3 times as much space as the older homes in the town. I'm not sure why that figure is indicative of our economy. It seems to me that "homes bought" would be more indicative of the economy. I know very few people who have built or bought new homes throughout their lifetimes.
Jean
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New home start-ups is a good measure of economic growth because our population is expanding, those entering the work force are increasing as more come out of school. Colleges end in May, so the numbers are likely to change fairly dramatically as they begin searching for jobs.
And 'full-time employment' does not always mean 40 hrs/wk now - 30 hrs is the cut-off for our new health care system. So people have to work two essentially part-time jobs (though they may be classified as 'full-time'), losing out on benefits, to equal the income of their old full-time job.
"In April, according to the Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics, the nation’s civilian noninstitutional population, consisting of all people 16 or older who were not in the military or an institution, reached 252,969,000. Of those, 158,924,000 participated in the labor force by either holding a job or actively seeking one.
The 158,924,000 who participated in the labor force equaled 62.8 percent of the 252,969,000 civilian noninstitutional population.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics counted 5,793,000 people in April as "persons who currently want a job," up from 5,712,000 in March.
Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for Hispanics increased to 6.1 percent in April, while the rates for adult men (4.6 percent), adult women (4.5 percent), teenagers (16.0 percent), Whites (4.3 percent), Blacks (8.8 percent), and Asians (3.8 percent) showed little or no change.
The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more) declined by 150,000 to 2.1 million in April. These individuals accounted for 25.7 percent of the unemployed.
The number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (also referred to as involuntary part-time workers) was about unchanged in April at 6.0 million and has shown little movement since November. These individuals, who would have preferred full-time employment, were working part time because their hours had been cut back or because they were unable to find a full-time job.
In April, 1.7 million persons were marginally attached to the labor force, down by 400,000 from a year earlier. (The data are not seasonally adjusted.) These individuals were not in the labor force, wanted and were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey.
Among the marginally attached, there were 568,000 discouraged workers in April, down by 188,000 from a year earlier. (The data are not seasonally adjusted.) Discouraged workers are persons not currently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available for them. The remaining 1.1 million persons marginally attached to the labor force in April had not searched for work for reasons such as school attendance or family responsibilities."
The rest here:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/labor-force-participation-improves-americans-not-labor-force
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Yes, Many employers are not hiring full-time employees so they don't have to pay benefits and many of those jobs are "women's jobs." Even though the use oftests and technologies are expanding mightily - GP's send their patients for tests so they won't be sued for missing something, or they get kick-backs from the testing agencies - very few of those jobs are full-time positions. I know a couple of young women who are conjuring up five days, or more, of work by working 2-3 days at one agency and 3-4 days at another, none of them are hiring 40 hr/wk employees.
Of course, we know Walmart hires few fulltime employees, also bcs they don't need to pay benefits. BRING BACK UNIONS. Let's stop thinking of unions as rip-offs and go back to thinking of them as advocates for employees.
Jean
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I agree. We humans tend to go too far with any enthusiasm, and so it is that unions got too big and corrupt and controlling. But life without unions would be a dreadful curse for the lower economic classes. And so it is that the pendulum swings back and forth and forth and back over the centuries. It is quite interesting to be 87 and have seen this. Makes me ponder upon what I might have seen were I to live to be 187. (Which I do not choose to do!)
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Since Roosevelt I do not know of another president who actually made a difference in our lives - oh probably the motivation of Kennedy to go to the moon which brought so many by-products into our lives - maybe it is not so much the platform of all these presidents that did not improve our lives as much as the emphasis we now take under our wing since WWII of being a world leading nation - oh I forgot and took it for granted and that was the Domestic policies that Johnson brought to the average person in this country. Yes, I guess he did continue what Roosevelt started. We may like other presidents but they really never affected all of our lives from day break to day break. Wars affected some positively and negatively - the same with Trade Agreements but I am talking the social issues that make our lives more productive with more opportunity for family security and advancement.
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Tra la... STLer who became Air Force's first female fighter pilot promoted to brigadier general - who happens to be my best friend who died last year, niece - Jeannie is a Flynn and Charlotte's niece.
http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/columns/joe-holleman/stler-who-became-air-force-s-first-female-fighter-pilot/article_cda21bca-8c65-5673-aa5b-41c70d0da87b.html
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I had read about that, Barbara, and am thrilled. I wish her complete success in her job.
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Jean,
BRING BACK UNIONS. Let's stop thinking of unions as rip-offs and go back to thinking of them as advocates for employees.
The sad problem is that the unions no longer fight for the worker, they are lobbyists to politicians. Backdoor deals are made that in no way help the employees. IMO
MaryPage, I am only in my early 60s and the changes I have seen in the past decade scares me, but what I am learning through reading and having access to more information is that nothing has really changed with how government works. From the earliest of times even in FDR's day there were deals made behind closed doors. Francis Perkins got little recognition for what she was responsible for as the U.S. Secretary of Labor, thus the first woman to hold a cabinet position in the United States. I loved the book we discussed in here about her.
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Has anyone read - The Evolutionary Journey of Woman: From the Goddess to Integral Feminism by Sarah Nicholson -
The Amazon blurb says, "The story of human evolution that we've been told is one built on the shoulders of male heroism, competition and dominance: but, what if it isn't the whole story?
This is the story of women's evolution. It traces women's rich contribution to human evolutionary history alongside the conditions of her oppression, and looks towards a future that integrates women's past wisdom with the full spectrum of present and future possibilities."
Sounds interesting - anxious to know if any of you have read it and what did you think
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Wow! Watching the news last night felt like "pinch me, I don't believe this is happening." Like watching that second plane come towards the second tower back in 2001, which I did.
But listening to that tape of what was obviously Donald Trump speaking, ouch! It was not only his voice (and surely they will put machines on it to prove it so), but it was his expressions. So he scored with every famous woman who panted for him, except of course those he scorned. And as soon as his divorce went through, he might or might not marry Marla Maples, but in the meanwhile, he was cheating on her with 3 regulars in addition to the famous one offs. OMG! Has the man no shame?
Well, there is NO WAY he is going to wiggle out of this one. And yet he has the colossal temerity to attack Hillary for the womanizing HER HUSBAND did! Like she did not suffer enough at the time, but now it is All Her Fault! I tell you, men are weird, and the narcissistic locker room bully is the weirdest of them all, and the most dangerous.
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I am just as concerned and frightened of Hillary Clinton. So many dead bodies, so much cover up, so much scandal, so much money unaccountable for the Clinton Foundation, so many emails not turned over, so many lies about the four Americans killed in Benghazi. I feel Hillary is just as narcissistic, and as much a bully as Trump. And now this new scandal... http://nypost.com/2016/05/13/clinton-charity-arranged-2m-pledge-to-company-owned-by-bills-friend/
I never felt sorry for Hillary because she and Bill had their sights set on a political/presidential goal and they were not going to let anything or anyone get in their way. I think she knew all along he was a womanizer and didn't care as long as he advanced her political aspirations.
America is in deep trouble when all we have are these two candidates to choose from.
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What dead bodies? And did not all those hearing about Libya turn up not so much as a hair of scandal regarding Hilliary? God knows the Republicans tried to pin the terrorism on her! So now they just do it by repeating all the disproved allegations over and over and over, hoping the words will permeate the brains of the public enough to make them feel uncomfortable about her.
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No there is a long list of over 20 dead bodies MaryPage that go back to White water and since - folks that were to testify that came up dead - not sure what is behind it but it is a troubling list. And then the mishandling and scamming the money for Haiti that the regular media chose not to cover when Haitians - looked like at least 100s if not a thousand stormed her NYC campaign office a week or so ago.
I notice the east coast is not getting all the news we have been receiving in the middle of the country - comparing to both my sisters and my daughter who live in the Carolinas they are not getting the news we get and if you are not on face book you do not get all the news either - Benghazi I think is simply a political ploy but some of the other is not - plus over and over she speaks from her Sec of State stand and does come up pro-war in the middle east. It does feel like we are voting from the frying pan into the fire.
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Perhaps these things don't appear in the Washington Post, Baltimore Sun, Boston Globe and New York Times, among other top quality newspapers, because they have investigated and found no truth to the stories. There are ultra conservative billionaires who own most of the newspapers, radio stations and television channels all up and down the Midwest who just love to propagate anything anti-Clinton their staffs can put out there as questionable as though it were Gospel Truth. Perhaps, and I am writing in their style of putting things now, but just perhaps it is all because their money could not buy either Clinton?
I would also suggest that it has been 24 years since Clinton was elected President. A lot of people they will have known and worked with will have died in that time. I find myself feeling as though I were stranded on a mountain alone against the elements, as almost all of my friends are dead now.
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None of our politicians are squeaky clean, going back in history it's very clear. However, it seems to me that Donald Trump is given much more leeway than he should be given, when so much of what he's done and said is right out there. He lies and backtracks, and people just seem to say, "oh well, that's Donald" as if it doesn't matter.
Much of what Hillary has done is out there also, and some of it bad, but much of what the detractors say is innuendo and suggestion. That long list of supposed deaths? There's a lot of creativity in that story. Benghazi? All those hearings, nothing proven, but history shows other administrations had similar, worse, events even.
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that is the problem - none of this is in the newspapers from the east coast however I see the various bits of information on BBC and the Guardian - neither of which have as they say, a dog in the fight - and I had not noted but will the news reports I see on Facebook - for me it is discouraging - I was looking forward to voting for Hillary but her campaign disappointed me with no vision for a better tomorrow and her solutions to havoc from the middle east she sees war as the answer as she shared in the debates - When I saw the photos of the Haitians outside her office I was taken back - I did not know what happened with Bill Clinton heading up the Haitian effort that the Haitians themselves were aware but it has been news for over a year that the funds did not go where they were intended - even the Nightly News Report on PBS had a blurb about that months ago - now the list of deaths, that would need some looking into because since the 4 deaths in Benghazi were on the list, that I do not agree is her doings therefore, the others I would want checked - in any event there is no white knight going to be elected this time.
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Can anyone explain to me what this bathroom thing is all about - not sure I understand - it sounds like if a girl can go sexually go either as a boy or a girl and she dresses as a boy she should use the boy's bathroom and the same for a boy if he dresses as a girl he can use a girl's bathroom - but if they have switched their sex then their anatomy has been either augmented or surgically removed so that they appear no longer what they were - and if that is the issue than I see no issue - born a boy but augmentation and surgery you look like and act like a girl and if born as a girl and your anatomy was changed to match your sexual identity than you no longer look like a girl but look like a boy and so you go to the boys bathroom just as the boy who surgically changed himself to a girl than he would no longer be a boy and would use the girls bathroom.
So I am confused - probably because if someone is attracted to both boys and girls that is a sexual orientation but not a anatomy issue and so if you are a boy that is interested in other boys than you go with the boys - just because your sexual interest is in other boys that still does not change you into a girl - if that were the case then that is assuming that boys can only be interested in girls and likewise, a girl sexually interested in another girls you go with the girls - your sexual interests are in the bedroom not in public bathrooms or school bathrooms so I am as confused as ever... what is going on...
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There was a long article about it in this morning's THE CAPITAL, our local Annapolis newspaper. Apparently Anne Arundel County schools have been following the same guidelines for some time now, as advised by doctors and psychologists and such like, and so will have no changes to make to comply.
Less than 1% of human beings are transgender, as compared to 11% being Gay, and these things do not seem to be related, albeit the genesis of them may be. Some scientists believe now (and there is not all that much money for studies, but they are trying) that when the egg gets fertilized by either a sperm to make a girl or a sperm to make a boy, that that does not settle entirely, unfortunately, the matter of the gender of the baby to be. There is some very early timing in there, and I cannot remember all the details both because I am not medical and because I have memory lapses, but I saw a documentary not long ago that showed early on the one cell becomes two and becomes four and so on, and somewhere in there the zygote is washed with hormones. For how long and how much, I do not know. But if something goes wrong, and here we mean wrong in the sense of not the normal timing or not the normal length of time for the hormone washing or not the normal strength of the hormones, I mean really, who KNOWS yet, well, the boy to be zygote may develop a female brain entirely or a half & half or who knows what. They have been able to show absolutely that female and male brains ARE different! I mean, that much is now a settled matter. So it is a tragedy when a little girl is born with a penis or a little boy with a vagina. And not only is it a physical & emotional horror for the growing child, but society has demeaned them and treated them horribly, even killing them. We are growing up in our knowledge now, and no longer can tolerate this dreadful behavior.
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So now our society is trying to make amends for the ghastly treatment of children born this way. Most parents are alerting the school authorities so that they will be on the lookout to protect these children from bullying and other types of mistreatment.
Now you have a small child, say a 4 or 6 year old, who has declared herself a boy and convinced her, and from now on I am going to say his, parents and doctors and psychologists that he is right about this. So he wears boy clothes and has a boy haircut and does everything boys do. And for years, in most places, he has been using the boy bathrooms and using a stall. No problem. But now some religious bigots want this to cease and the child to use the bathroom of the sex he was declared at birth. So suddenly we are to have a whole bevy of little girls using the bathroom see a little boy named Pete walk into THEIR bathroom because the law says he must!!!! I don't think so. Or a little six year old girl who was born with a penis but has been wearing curls and dresses and jewelry and playing with dolls and other little girls walk into a boy's room? Can you IMAGINE the uproar?
I do not understand why folks think these children want to do sexual things to other children. Nothing could be further from the truth, and this is NOT about sex; it is about who they are. Who they really are. I have 26 great grandchildren, and I do not personally believe that a single one of them is in any danger from any type of harassment from transgender children. On the contrary, it is the transgenders who are in danger from the ignorant who would do THEM harm!
Oh, and as far as God is concerned, I know My God would not have made less than 1% of all humans transgenders (and always the same percentage!) and 11% of all humans, regardless of country, color, culture or religion, Gay if She did not want it to be that way. And I believe God loves us ALL, but has a very special love for those born with differences that will handicap their coping with the behavior of others towards them.
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MaryPage thanks - still not sure I understand - I guess I need to look into this and learn what these kids have going on for themselves that makes them different - I did not know that girl's and boy's minds were different - I thought that was an old joke to put down women and so the jokes were right - sheesh.
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The main thing to understand is that these children are in school AS THE SEX THEY FEEL THEY ARE, and not as the sex they were put down as on their birth certificates. So they have been accepted by their classmates and the teachers as a boy, when their BC says they are Baby Girl Jones. They have a male name and wear male clothes and have been using the boys restroom. Now along comes a North Carolina law that says no, they must use the GIRLS room! So what happens Now when that assumed boy walks into the Girls Room?
You talk about Trouble!
Or vice versa, a little girl who was Baby Boy Jones on her BC now has to use the Boys Room?
What the new law is doing is OUTING these children!
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Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, a bestselling book claims. Science does confirm, though, that male and female brains are wired differently — but what that means is the focus of a great deal of research. One recent study found that structurally, it's rare to have a brain with all "male" or "female" traits.Mar 3, 2016
This is the sort of thing you will find if you read all of the articles on the web. What they have found through very thorough testing is NOT a difference in ability or intelligence, but we are wired to think DIFFERENTLY, which, when you get down to it, we have always known. They have tested and tested and tested. Having those scans with the parts of the brain lighting up where the question or plot or picture or whatever, also shows that males & females use different PARTS of the brain for the same problem, be it emotional or analytical or you name it. Fascinating stuff. Bottom line, we have to stop treating human beings who exit the womb different from others sexually like freaks "from the devil" and start recognizing that nature does this in a real pattern of numbers and it is ghastly to be born one of the unlucky labeled of Satan. Just as unlucky as being born with cystic fibrosis or cerebral palsy or a hundred other things that show up on a regular basis.
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Fear is exhibited in anger. Folk who do not understand the underlying truths of transgender believe it to be a dangerous aberration and that their kiddies are not safe around the tiny number of transgenders out there. They show their Fear in the extreme anger they turn on the unfortunate transgendered. The truth is, we should not be passing legislation we mistakenly think will save our children from some imagined evil in this case, but rather passing legislation to keep transgenders from bullying, harassment and even death at the hands of our children and ourselves.
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http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/
The NO sex bathroom, locker room and shower is to be politically correct to accommodate the less than 1% transgenders. Any person no matter how they are dressed, no matter what their anatomy is, now is allowed to go into any public bathroom, they just say they identify with that sex. Not all states are going to abide by this because there is no constitutional law that gives this president or DOJ the authority to force this as law.
http://ltgov.nc.gov/content/lt-governor-dan-forest-responds-presidents-bathroom-policy-directive
I don't see an LGBT as a freak from the devil, or born of Satan. I do believe as in evolution vs God's creation we will differ on opinions as to if it is a science/nature or not, because we can quote from many medical, science, and theological opinions documented.
I think this bathroom issue is going to put innocent children at risk and not meaning by the transgenders, but the perverts who will take advantage of the easy access to expose themselves or assault victims.
http://abc7chicago.com/1336656/
Parents can not always accompany their child/teen into restrooms especially in schools, locker rooms, fitness centers, gymnasiums or showers. I don't understand why they are taking away the privacy of gay, lesbian and heterosexuals when it would be simple to have a male bathroom, a female bathroom and then a "unisex" for anyone who feels comfortable using a no specified gender bathroom. I fear this is only going to cause more hatred and violence due to people feeling their privacy and rights are being violated to accommodate the less than 1%.
MaryPage, "The truth is, we should not be passing legislation we mistakenly think will save our children from some imagined evil in this case, but rather passing legislation to keep transgenders from bullying, harassment and even death at the hands of our children and ourselves.
I ask, where is the legislation to protect the unborn child, the most innocent of all who are not able to protect themselves at the hands of those who decide to legislate it is okay to kill them?
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This is the thing. Transgenders ARE using the bathroom assigned the sex they feel they are, and NOT the bathroom assigned them by their birth certificates. This has been going on for a very long time, with no incidents reported.
Now, all of a sudden, North Carolina (and some others) want to make a big deal of it and say they cannot do this! So I ask again: what is going to happen when a girl walks into a boys room because the law now says she has to because her birth certificate says she is a boy? She has been known as a girl at her school all of her years? Who do you see as in danger in this situation? Do you think that bathroom full of boys is going to just let her come in and use a stall and wash her hands and leave? Do you really see no danger to her?
Same thing with a boy who has always been known as a boy. With the new North Carolina law, he will have to start using the Girls room!
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There is an easy solution.....One bathroom for males, one for females, and one for unisex. I am not arguing anything about transgenders. I am stating a fact that others privacy and safety is being put in jeopardy. I hear what you are saying, but NO law should be passed for this. Just make a "unisex" bathroom, locker room and showers, for those who want to identify in any sex they so choose.
You need to understand that this is serious because not all transgenders have or want to have a genital operation. So NO I do not want my daughter or son to have to share a locker room or shower with a transgender who's genital part is not anatomically the same as theirs. As a teen in gym class I still remember the uncomfortable feeling of sharing open showers with my female classmates. I would be horrified to be standing next to a transgender with male parts. This is NOT just about a public restroom.
I am NOT referring to any transgenders as perverts. I am speaking of perverts, child molestors, pediphiles, child trafficers, and exhibitionists that will take advantage of the easy access to their prey. Government has become worse than a helicopter parent. This president is overreaching to accommodate the less than 1% of transgenders, yet is so ready and willing to support Planned Parenthood who is butchering unborn babies. I am so dizzy with his nonsense my head is spinning. He was suppose to bring us closer together but instead has made this country more divided than ever.
We should respect the right and life of all, including the innocent unborn baby who can not defend him/herself. We should respect the privacy of our preteens/teens and college students in restrooms, locker rooms and showers. They can and will feel violated being forced to share their private space with someone who has opposite sex parts. To me to prevent and protect the less than 1% by passing a law for this is only infringing on the 99% others. One "unisex" restroom, locker room and shower will solve this.
I don't want anyone bullied, or life threatened including the unborn baby. We need to stop making laws that do just that. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for ALL.
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Unfortunately, that solution is not so hot for our public school system, which lacks enough money to make expensive physical changes.
I am not trying to make an argument to change anyone's mind, I am just trying to get all the facts on the table. And the facts are that for all of my lifetime transgender children and grownups have been using the public bathroom of the gender they are living as. Elementary school children do not take showers at school. Transgender High School students usually get excused from P.E., do not play on team sports, or simply find an easy way to get out of the shower problem. Chances are there were no transgenders in our schools, they are so few. But in a huge system, chances are there were, and we never knew it. This administration is not changing any law, nor is it changing the status quo. North Carolina is the one who is making a NEW LAW which considerably changes the way things have been and puts a huge problem on the public's plate which did not previously exist because it has been handled very discretely, case by case.
Remember, we are not talking vast numbers of transgenders. They are a tiny minority. Very tiny.
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I am not making an argument to change minds as well, I too am supplying facts to inform. I am pointing out this has become a major issue that it need not be. This president in his words and actions has created a division, hostility, fear, and intrusion into people that was not necessary by trying to make and enforce a law that is unconstitutional. For someone who was suppose to be a constitutional lawyer, he sure seems to be stepping all over our constitutional rights. I did not say he is "changing" a law, he is trying to "make" a law which is not his position to do. He does not have the power or jurisdiction to "make" laws of his liking.
I am very aware of the less than 1% being a very tiny minority, so I ask again, why pass a law that will effect the more than 99% others, and place their safety and privacy at risk?
I was not speaking of elementary students, as you notice I said preteen/teen and college students who do use locker rooms, showers and open bath areas. They will feel violated. I have no doubt transgenders have been already using public restrooms without anyone realizing it, so why does this president feel the need to enact a law forcing restrooms, locker rooms and showers be ALL gender in schools, health facilities, sports rooms etc.? He is over reaching and causing chaos where it does not need to be.
If you read the article you will see North Carolina is NOT as you say trying to make a new law. They are staying with the current one.
"The President needs a reminder that the United States Constitution grants education decision authority to the states and localities not to the President of the United States. Our current state policy protects our children by maintaining bathrooms and restrooms consistent with the biological sex of the child and already gives schools, should special circumstances arise, the freedom to grant private single stall - single shower bathroom accommodations to individuals who might not otherwise be comfortable using the bathroom of their biological sex or a bathroom shared with other people."
I'm pretty sure schools could manage to accommodate a unisex bathroom, locker room and shower for the very very few we are talking about. Maybe transgenders would feel more comfortable in participating in sports and other activities, although I was not aware as you pointed out, they are opting out? Most transgenders school age and college age most likely have not gone through with a surgery to change their genital part, which I would assume they are still using the facilities of the sex they are born to, rather identify with at this age.
The sad thing is that the president has not thought this out at all. He did not foresee the ramifications of the preteens/teen and college students. He was trying to accommodate adult transgenders in public restrooms and opened up Pandora's box, because it then became about schools/colleges bathrooms, locker rooms and showers, etc.
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On this I agree with Bellamarie - seems to me it is not the transgender that is the concern - it is the straight kid who is now about 14 till he gets a handle on his own sexuality and has invaded the girls locker room or bathroom with no way to tell if they are transgender or not.
So if being transgender is a medical or natural or however it is best described than outing or not, is no different than the gay kids that are now outed but not actually 'outed' because all the world knows about and accepts that there are gay kids - If outing the transgender kid is a bullying issue and so they prefer secrecy - Yes, there are bullies and they use any difference to push their control - and kids have been beat up for many issues which reminds folks of the beatings taken because of being gay and for the color of the skin however the only thing I see in common is that bullies beat up kids who are different.
Where little is known about the kid who is transgender, researching on the internet does not help. I found huge differences in the explanations - some say those who are in the process of changing surgically their gender are called Transgender - others go into great detail between the transgender and the transvestite and few give a medical and biological explanation. It still does not sound like the issue is with the transgender kid but rather to keep straight folks from taking advantage of the law to invade a girls locker room or bathroom -
As to girls entering a man's locker room or bathroom that happens all the time with transvestites and journalists going after a story. It is just the feeling of safety that this removes for girls since there is no way to ID a transgender kid from a pervert.
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http://www.eagletribune.com/opinion/ann-mcfeatters-north-carolina-s-bathroom-bill-a-disgrace/article_576e771e-df65-531e-b051-89502a1c38e6.html
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I think the powers-that-be have determined that having a unisex bathroom along with male and female bathrooms is also discriminatory. I don't understand the stance Target has taken since they have a large, nicely kept, private Family bathroom that seems could be used to accommodate transgenders.
But I personally don't agree with the 'science' being used to determine the legitimacy of the LGBT groups' claims. Science here, I believe, is being twisted to suit the culture:
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change
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With all due respect Maryjane, this article you provided is written by a progressive liberal and it is her "personal" opinion attacking North Carolina, which has little facts but much fiction. She uses Lynch's words for the weight of her own opinion when in fact it shows how "they" are not respecting the privacy and rights of the 99% who are not in the transgender less than 1%
The physically beautiful state of North Carolina, now personified by the egregiously bigoted state legislature and its governor, Pat McCrory, is being ridiculed around the world and for very good reason. What they are doing is evil.
She has NO basis in making this statement, and calling them bigoted and evil shows her bias.
Lynch noted correctly that change is discomforting and that people fear what they do not know or understand.
But that does not give them the right to impose pain and suffering, humiliation and denial of civil rights and lack of respect on others.
It is distressing that with all our problems, causing misery and inciting anger and hatred are still front and center in U.S. politics.
While she says, we fear what we do not know and understand, she is assuming we don't know our own feelings. We know our privacy and our children's privacy will be violated if the schools and colleges are "mandated" to allow transgenders who have not had surgery to change their anatomy be in the same shower. Try to imagine the pain, suffering, humiliation and denial of civil rights and lack of respect for those female preteens/teens and college students who are forced to shower with someone with male genitals next to them. And the same for boys of these ages showering with female genitals next to them. I'm pretty sure they know and understand how they will feel, and the fear is real to them.
As Lynch pledged to the transgender community: "We see you. We stand with you. And we will do everything we can to protect you going forward. History is on your side. ... It may not be easy. We will get there together."
She speaks of inciting hate and anger, but this is indeed doing just that. Like I said before..... this president has NOT thought this through. He made a knee jerk "mandate" to be politically correct without knowing what it would involve. This is not JUST about a transgender being allowed to use a public bathroom of which sex they identify with. This has extended to locker rooms and showers of schools and colleges where minor children are going to be exposed and their privacy violated.
The powers that be who are determining a unisex bathroom is discriminatory, are in fact discriminating against the 99% who are not of the 1%. I do not agree with the science as well. Professionals of psychiatry agree transgender is a mental disorder that should be treated, rather than taking a knife to change their anatomy. Changing a part of your body does not deal with the mental state of the person's mind. The percentages of suicide after a sex change goes up drastically. We are doing a huge disservice to those who need mental help by not seeing this for what it is, rather than butchering their bodies.
As a society, we need to have compassion for ALL people's feelings, including those who will be forced to shower next to someone with the opposite genital than theirs. If this "mandate" stands and states allow it you will see more enrollments in private schools. This president plans to refuse funds to schools that do not enact his "mandate." Punishing them by the power of his pen to yet once again trample the Constitution and Law. He does NOT have the authority, power or jurisdiction to "make laws" of his liking. He uses verbiage as in "mandate" to get around what he actually is doing and that is over reaching his position. I personally feel this is a huge political distraction to help the democratic party for this election year. He knew the firestorm this would cause. He knew the divisiveness and the outrage this would incite, trying to distract Americans from what is really much larger issues to be dealt with such as the economy, terrorism, healthcare, and jobs.
A "unisex" or "family" bathroom, locker room and shower, is a simple answer to this, yet they prefer to make it more than what it is. Why do "they" the powers that be, assume this solution is discriminatory to the less than 1%, yet their solution is not discriminatory to the more than 99%?
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mogomom, Thank you for the article, it is the same as all the others I have been reading where psychiatrists are very concerned about how we are not seeing transgender for what it is, a mental disorder.
Just saw this article on my Facebook.... phew my head is really spinning! ???
http://www.faithfamilyamerica.com/famous_lgbt_activist_reveals_the_scary_real_goal_of_the_bathroom_battle_and_it_s_not_bathrooms_it_s_way_worse
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Holy moly! What a tizzy some folks can get in when their vivid imaginations and paranoia meet! I'm intending that statement about people on both ends of the extremes.
Jean
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I agree, mabel.
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I couldn't disagree more. It is no 'tizzy' anyone is having here. In NY mental health workers have already been told that they cannot counsel anyone away from transgenderism (much as what happened years ago with homosexuality) even if that is the presenting problem. How can the government interfere with trained professionals in such a blatant attempt to protect individuals from any reality checking and exploration of a presenting problem?
And what about not forcing someone's values on someone else? Does that only extend to conservatives and Christians (although this would affect people of many faiths, including Muslims and Jews)? Or someone whose values are not your own?
These are not necessarily individuals in the process of gender realignment surgery (have you studied the process from a medical perspective? They have life-long medical conditions that require near constant monitoring and treatment) - they only have to say that they 'identify' with the opposite gender. How long has it been since you all were in high school? Students are much more overtly sexual in school today - at lockers, under the stage, even in locker rooms. Some boys in a local school were charged for putting a hole in the girl's shower room wall so they could look in - even take pictures (and these things are more and more often showing up on the social media sites). Now they can just say that today they identify as a female - tomorrow maybe as a male. Why are we now so eager to jettison science? Because it offers only an inconvenient truth?
We didn't know until a few years back that Gender Identity Disorder (though I hear that's going to be taken out of the next DSM) was listed in our Disabilities Act. In a small rural county in Western New York: A couple of weeks before school started, parents of students who were going to take 9th grade science at a local high school were called in to be told that the male teacher had to live as a woman for a year before deciding on surgery. Students were not allowed to transfer out. Other area high schools refused to accept students from that school district (as per a county-wide superintendents' meeting a few weeks prior). It was too late to register for, or get busing to, a private school (though a local Catholic high school waived their policies to accommodate some) and it was too late to apply for homeschooling for that year (though that policy was also modified some).
Under NY Disabilities Act an employer must make 'reasonable accommodations' for disabled individuals. In this instance these would include:
1. Hiring a specialist from Tenn. to explain the medical reasoning of the disorder.
2. Requiring all employees (including bus monitors, lunch room workers, etc) to attend a three-day sensitivity training session, paid for by tax-payers.
3. Students received instruction in how they were to address this individual as Mrs. ____ ( even though they knew his wife and children); they were not allowed to make any disparaging statements or looks, including smiling. If they did, they were threatened with counseling. (one father asked how they expected a 9th grade student to keep from laughing when they saw a 300 pound gorilla in capris).
4. No religious/moral/values objections would be entertained; only medical/physiological discussion was allowed.
5. No students were allowed to drop/transfer out of his class, a class which was required for graduation.
6. All faculty bathrooms were made unisex.
It was a nightmare! And completely unnecessary. It actually would have been cheaper to give him a year's paid sabbatical. Teacher's left. Others used the student's bathrooms. Students were moved or dropped if they could find any way to do so (for instance, one family argued successfully that such a distraction would have an adverse effect on their ADHD child). And you cannot tell me that this was in any way a true experience 'living as a woman' for this man. What did it prove? The following year both the superintendent and the teacher quit.
In my mind this whole thing is a true case of "thinking themselves wise, they became fools".
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Thank you mogamom. I do not feel expressing our feelings even when we differ, don't have all the facts, or are not politically correct should be considered in a "tizzy," How else are we to learn and get informed and yes, try to understand and accept others if we are not allowed to express our feelings, opinions and have a respectful discussion without being considered over imaginative or paranoid?
Transgenders are 0.3% of the population, the other 99.7% are asked to conform to the "mandate" so we don't discriminate for what renown psychiatrists have studied, dealt with transgender patients, and concluded, this is a mental disorder which needs to be treated as such. Rather than provide mental health for the 0.3% this administration has decided we will ignore their health needs and enable them. The arrogance of those refusing to give credence to psychiatrists diagnosis because it does not fit in with their agenda is incredible.
The danger is real, as mogamom pointed out, high school boys already have been finding ways to invade the privacy of locker rooms, and will use this as a means of easy access for their sexual pranks and pleasure. Not to mention the perverts, phediphiles, molestors and child traffickers. Until and unless you, or your child has been sexually violated, molested, raped or groomed you can not know or understand OUR fear is real! Understand I AM NOT saying it is the transgenders who do or will commit these acts. I am saying to give unilateral easy access to the most private places we and our children are in public, schools and colleges, is making it easy for those who will commit these crimes. NO, I do not want my granddaughter or grandson who is in high school to have to stand in the shower next to a transgender with the opposite genitals than theirs. Call me crazy, in a tizzy, imaginative and paranoid, but I have lived through close family and friends who have been violated, and I don't want to open the doors for easier access to the evil who will indeed take advantage of this "mandate."
I agree, it would have been easier for that teacher to take a one year sabbatical. Imagine the confusion those students had to deal with emotionally, mentally and yes even sexually. One person's mental condition was forced upon an entire school to deal with. How is that not infringing on their civil rights?
When did common sense, instincts to protect our children, and overlooking psychiatric diagnosis leave us?
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Presently we believe that transgender identity is no more a psychiatric problem than homosexuality is a psychiatric problem. If some psychiatrists think it is, they are out of date. Psychiatrists used to say homosexuality was an illness and could be cured by aversion therapy. Not so. Yet another example of the harm that misguided medical beliefs have done to people over the ages.
By the way, I am a psychiatrist.
The psychiatric disorder nowadays is termed gender dysphoria and addresses the anxiety and/depression a person may experience when they feel they are of the opposite sex. Treatment does not aim to "cure " the transgender identity but instead to help a person come to terms with it, because it cannot be changed. Same thing used to be with homosexuals, less now as homosexuality has become more accepted.
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I was never taught, nor have I ever believed, that homosexuality was an 'illness', but a problem in psycho-sexual development. And, yes, psychiatrists decided that homosexuality could not be cured, although Christian therapists have had some very positive results. Is that how mental health is determined - by whether or not the condition can be 'cured'? And I fail to see how helping these individuals come to terms with their gender identity includes their having access to the bathrooms and locker rooms of the other sex where they are creating those same feelings of anxiety and depression on others who are told they must just endure such an intrusion.
Psychiatrists have also determined, as I understand it, that pedophilia cannot be cured. So should we expect that those individuals will be determined to be 'mentally healthy' also? Just engaged in an alternative lifestyle? Should we - in not wanting to offend anyone - give them access to our children? Because there are many groups already pushing for such license, as I'm sure you well know.
Alcoholism and drug addiction are not 'cured' either, but we don't encourage those individuals to continue unhealthy, self-destructive behaviors (although drug addiction seems to be taking a turn now). We still see the value of assigning such conditions as 'disorders' and in attempting to help individuals find healthier lifestyles. Are we saying that sexual feelings/activity cannot be controlled? If so, that is a whole other issue. Such self-destructive behavior absolutely has consequences for all of us.
I would have no problem with counseling those individuals to have respect for the privacy and rights of others, which many (probably most) already do. There are other, better, less invasive solutions to this problem. Let's look for solutions that don't just transfer the harm that has been done onto some other individual/group, but actually deals with it.
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Dana, with all due respect there are many renowned psychiatrists who have treated transgenders and studied the disorder who conclude transgender is a mental disorder, and have had a high success rate in treating them. So when you use "we" it is not all psychiatrists as a whole. As far as I am concerned if it is or isn't labeled a mental disorder it makes no difference to me where allowing access to bathrooms, locker rooms and showers are concerned. I noticed you did not address how this could affect our preteens, teens and college students who would have to stand beside a transgender with opposite genitals in their shower.
I will concede to leave the medical mental condition up to trusted psychiatrists, and continue to voice my concern for the innocent children who will be traumatized by having to deal with this mandate. As a psychiatrist, as you pointed out you are where are your professional opinions on the effects this would have on the young preteens, teens and college students? I know none of my grandchildren in these age brackets want to have to deal with this in their school/college locker rooms and showers and they are pretty up to date and tolerant of all lifestyles, race, religion, and creed.
Mogamom, I agree with you there are better and less invasive solutions to this problem. Why is there more concern for the 0.3% of transgenders, than the invasion of the privacy and rights for the 99.7%
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Maybe because it is the minority who get beaten up and killed by the majority?
If it ain't broke, why fix it? There has been no problem. Suddenly North Carolina has decided to make an issue, take a stand, and create a problem where none has existed.
Do you know of any girl who has been forced to take a shower with another girl who has a penis? Don't you think school authorities would bend over backwards to make sure that never happens?
Much Ado About Nothing!
A Tempest In A Teapot!
This new law is not for the purpose of saving the majority of students from anything at all. It is for the purpose of making the lives of this tiny minority even more miserable than they already are. It is totally tyrannical and despotic.
My 13 granddaughters are all grown up now. The youngest will turn 30 on June 3rd, and she has 4 little ones. None has ever encountered any problems of this type. My 26th great grandchild was just born on April 22nd, while my first is 22 and about to complete architectural school. None of these, thus far, has had or known of a problem, but all feel they would be capable of handling it. We all fail to understand the energy and intensity being spent on this non-cause!
Remember the oh so sad song from South Pacific? "We have to be taught, before it's too late, to hate all the people our relatives hate. We have to be carefully taught."
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MaryPage,
If it ain't broke, why fix it? There has been no problem. Suddenly North Carolina has decided to make an issue, take a stand, and create a problem where none has existed.
You seem to be ignoring that North Carolina is in fact staying with the current policies, and they are not the only state or people who are concerned about this president's mandate. You seem to not understand it was not broken until this president enacted his mandate.
Thank God your children or grandchildren have been spared and never had to experience any such acts against them by pediphiles, molestors, trafickers, etc. Do you think because you personally have not experienced it, it is unthinkable for those who have? I am not as fortunate to be able to say this about my family and friends. What does it take to open the eyes of those who have not had to worry or be touched by such horrible invasive acts for them to understand the fears of those who have. Allowing anyone who can say they identify as the opposite sex to enter bathrooms, locker rooms and showers is careless, unsafe and violates the privacy and civil rights of others.
It wasn't broken and needed fixed until this president decided to over reach and enact this mandate. Carefully taught
you say?? WOW! I was carefully taught, my children were carefully taught, my grandchildren were carefully taught and my friends were carefully taught, but it did not protect us from the evil that is out there waiting to prey on victims, and allowing them easier access to their prey is in fact careless and unthinkable.
I am not saying the transgenders are committing these acts, but enacting this mandate for the sole purpose of transgenders is putting so many at risk. We are not going to come to any agreement on this topic. You feel strongly about the 0.3% and I feel just as strongly about the 99.7%. We must err on the safety of our innocent children, not on the "feelings or identity" of transgenders.
So if tomorrow a group decides they identify as dogs and want to go into any restroom and urinate and defecate on the floors do we then mandate this since they will be bullied, humiliated, and feel discriminated against? Where do we end the insanity? ??? ???
Do you know of any girl who has been forced to take a shower with another girl who has a penis? Don't you think school authorities would bend over backwards to make sure that never happens?
According to the president's mandate if the school does bend over backwards to make sure that it never happens they will be in violation of the mandate and lose government funding. You can't have it both ways. Now that this mandate is going to be forced upon the schools I am certain you will in fact hear of incidents happening. The sad thing is, you and others seem to think if or until it does happen, we need to not get ourselves into a tizzy. So we wait for a tragedy to happen to then do something to prevent it?? As my mother taught me...
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
You can NEVER undo the damage of someone being violated, molested, raped, groomed, exposed to, or stolen. So forgive me if I would rather take measures to prevent it before it happens.
Why aren't child psychiatrists speaking out about what effect this will have on preteens/teens and college students?
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I may, of course, be mistaken, but it has been my understanding of events that the President made no mandate. Rather, it fell out like this:
In February, the City of Charlotte, North Carolina, passed an ordinance to protect the LGBT community by stating they may use whichever public bathroom they identify with.
The Governor of the State got terribly upset by THIS ordinance, and had a bill put up in the NC legislature and got it passed and signed it into law that they CANNOT use the bathroom they identify with, but have to use the one that is the same as what is on their birth certificates.
The Justice Department of the United States then told North Carolina that it was breaking the Civil Rights Law.
That is the way things went as my memory goes. And these days, I must admit, my memory goes out the window a lot more than I care to admit.
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The president is overreaching, does not have the power or jurisdiction to call for such a mandate, and it is a violation of privacy and civil rights of 99.7% of the others.
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/obama-order-public-school/2016/05/12/id/728608/
"It will not have the force of law, but carries an implicit threat: Schools not abiding by the Obama administration’s interpretation of the law could face lawsuits or a loss of federal aid."
So this president is willing to sacrifice the betterment of education for the students in all schools who refuses to follow his mandate. How is that not discriminating? Punish innocent children by cutting off school funds, or force students to share the bathrooms, locker rooms and showers with transgenders. Well, that sounds like an intelligent well thought out, productive plan. Either way the students lose, while these politicians act like school kids fighting on the school yard.
There are other states who refuse to follow "his" mandate as well.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/doa-governors-refuse-to-implement-obamas-transgender-bathroom-policy
When did this country go from being a democracy to dictatorship? When this president decided the power of his pen and phone would trample the Constitution of the United States and bypass congress.
Our children need and deserve protection from this mandate.
Glad to see someone speaking out for the children's well being and safety:
http://illinoisfamily.org/uncategorized/pediatricians-call-it-what-it-is-child-abuse/
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All of us are affected by personal experience. Wanting privacy is NOT showing hate to another group - or even intolerance or a lack of compassion for their personal difficulties. I for one get tired of all the '-phobic' slurs that get thrown at people who disagree with some social issue. Tolerance goes both ways.
A few years ago a group of LGBT young adults were in the news because they said they had gotten beaten outside a bar in a near-by city. I could not believe that such behavior still existed today toward these people, and was quite incensed by it all, as many were. That is, until they admitted that they had beaten each other in order to "raise awareness" of their victim status.
A couple of years later another group of LGBT youth reported that they had been beaten and thrown out of a bar. This time no one jumped to their defense but waited to hear the results of the investigation. Sure enough, they also admitted to beating each other to 'raise awareness'. When the police asked them why they filed a false report they said: We knew that that was what heterosexuals would like to do to us if they thought they could get away with it.
But heterosexuals did NOT do any such thing!
So, I wonder how we move forward if everyone is only focused backward.
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Found this... Get the checkered coat - fashion???
(http://i1.cmail19.com/ei/i/C9/316/DFF/005712/csfinal/Noordam-delegates-1915.jpg)
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1. Aren't there stalls in men's restrooms also? No one has to ever watch anyone else go to the bathroom if every bathroom has stalls.
2. Perverts can, under any circumstances, go into any bathroom and probably have been doing that for decades and decades.
3. Trans people have been going to whatever bathroom they have been comfortable in for decades and none of us knew, or had a problem with that.
4. I think the issue of shower rooms in schools should be decided through thorough discussion with trans people, other students, gym teachers and admin people, coming up with an agreement from all that will meet the federal guidelines. Some adult should be paying attention in any locker/shower room and then handle the person misbehaving. No different than in a bullying situation.
We all as girls throughout our lives learned to deal with boys/men who were making us uncomfortable. Yes, we shouldn't have had to, but such is reality that there are jerks every where and every person has to learn to deal with them. Not that society shouldn't do all it can to prevent those jerks from having their opportunities, but we should be alert at all times that we are not stepping on minority rights if there is any other way to handle a situation that provides the most freedom for all.
Yes. I still believe some people are jumping too quickly before knowing what the guidelines are and liking the idea that "I can jump on the other side, politically, and make a fuss," without looking for a rational answer that satisfies most people touched by the situation.
Jean
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How in the world do they propose to ascertain that this new North Carolina law be obeyed? Are there going to be potty police in every public restroom; one would assume a female security guard at the door of women's rooms and a male at men's rooms? Who is going to pay for this, and are they going to ask to SEE our genitals, or just feel them through our clothing? Most of all, can we afford this when we can't even afford more and better bathrooms? And who will want these jobs? Ugh!
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Next year it will be 50 years - hard to believe a women could not race in a marathon as recently as 50 years ago
(http://14871-presscdn-0-39.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/rare30.jpg)
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I agree MaryPage. It's unenforcable. Are we all supposed to carry our birth certificates with us? Good luck with that.
Yes, Barb, especially since women have run races over the centuries.
We're back from vacation, lovely though cold, week at the shore. A highlight was when a friend who has been a lifetime Republican said "I hope you're not going to vote for Trump." It was a joke since he knew we were lifetime Democrats - his wife was the first Dem council person elected in our town in decades. He is very concerned that Trump could be catastrophic for the country. I was glad to hear him say that, I've been wondering where the moderate Republicans have been and, of course, there are many of those in NJ.
Jean
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Jean, I am a conservative Independent and am abhorred at the choices we have for president. Neither one of them have stellar reputations or records to hold the seat of the highest office in the land. Our country has surely lowered our standards and expectations. I sadly say in the past decades there has been no one I could say has been competent and experienced enough to be president, I feel the oval office has become a place for ideology and self serving agendas, but then again, maybe it always has been and we just never were privy to the tactics and shenanigans until now. I have no pride in the performances of the past few presidents, republican or democrat. We have become a weak nation and a laughing stock around the world. I feel the democratic party will sooner or later pull Hillary due to the emails, the Clinton foundation, and now the new allegations about Bill's behavior with abusing women. Biden will be the replacement. I know he says he does not want the position, but I think they are all playing their parts and in the end she will be replaced just like they made her step down and let Obama have the nominee in 08'. She would have for sure won that nomination and the presidency. I was working on her campaign back then and learned a lot of back door happenings to force her out. I will never be attached to any one party ever again.
MaryPage, As I pointed out it is NOT just North Carolina who refuses to follow this mandate. I am so over discussing this topic. It's as if we are hamsters on a wheel going round and round getting nowhere.
The bottom line is that it is unconstitutional, it is ONLY a mandate that each state can and will decide for their state to refuse to follow. It's very sad that a mental disorder is now going to affect the education, privacy and rights of innocent students. We sure have sunk to a new level.
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The call for impeachment is as extreme as the president's mandate.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/21/republican-oklahoma-lawmakers-urge-obama-impeachment-over-bathroom-directive.html
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I am about halfway through The Invention of Wings by Sue Monk Kidd, and am just astounded at how at such a young age Sarah Grimke and her little sister Nina (Angelina) were able to instinctively know that slavery is wrong. This is a fiction story based on true life people, Sarah Moore Grimké who was an American abolitionist, writer, and member of the women's suffrage movement, and sister who was 13 years younger than her. The sisters continued to live together, fighting for the rights of women, until Sarah's death in 1873.
And most aren't aware that slavery in this country didn't officially end until Dec. 6, 1865, the day the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified. It didn't end on Jan. 1, 1863, when President Abraham Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation.
http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/slavery-and-anti-slavery/essays/angelina-and-sarah-grimke-abolitionist-sisters
These were women before their times.
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Loved Invention of Wings. It was pretty accurate historically as well as a well-written fictional story. Glad you enjoyed it.
Jean
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I'm reading a very interesting ebook, The Hunting of Hillary by Joe Conason and Gene Lyon, both awarded journalists. You can get it for free from Conason's blog "national memo". I'm amazed that she is still standing and willing to take the arrows that are constantly hurled at her, even those repeated arrows that have already been debunked by congressional committees and objective journalists, altho, by their own admission, there don't seem to be many of those.
She has stood for decades in the midst of the onslaughts and no, I don't believe the cliche "where there's smoke there's fire," for it appears her opposition has frequently created its own smoke machine. I don't think she's perfect, who of us are, but IMO, she has a lot going for her. Why she would want to run for president and have the unscrupulous opposition have another big attack at her, I can't imagine. But it sure would be nice to have a woman president.
Jean
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I write as a supporter of Hillary Clinton, but honestly, Jean, as bad as the vicious lies against her are, I do not believe for a minute that they come only from her enemies in their intensity. Rather, I think it is like a new and extra virulent disease crashing in waves upon the American continent and attacking the wiring in the brains of the population, especially in the section of the brain that handles analytic thinking. Just let someone who is "mad" at someone whose name and fame are in the public sphere let loose with some entirely false and conspiratorial tale about the person they are angry with, and there is a large portion of the public who want nothing more than to embroider this story (or these stories) and pass them on, endlessly. It seems to be something of an addiction, something that satisfies some deep need within these people. It actually makes me feel most wretchedly ill to contemplate the seeming LACK of desire for verification: the foaming at the mouth pack of paranoid homo sapiens not only lack a desire for what the truth is, they want to slay the messengers who can lead them to and through the facts, rather than have that truth revealed. Of course, they would be outraged if anything similar should assail their OWN family or acquaintances, but for a perceived "enemy," anything, any dirty trick, any paranoid accusation, is a weapon to seize upon and spread like the sickness it is symptomatic of. I have no answers for this state of affairs. It is as though half the nation is in the grip of a psychosis, with no light switch that can be flipped to ON so they might SEE the messy muddle of their emotionally fueled behavior.
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Her email spoke for itself, she flat out lied to the families of the loved ones that died in Benghanzi while standing in front of the caskets, and she lied to the American people. The email to Chelsea clearly proves she lied.
Clinton and her daughter Chelsea Clinton exchanged emails after 8 p.m. on Sept. 11, 2012, with Chelsea Clinton using the alias “Diane Reynolds.” Clinton invited her daughter to call, saying she is in the office late because of attacks on U.S. facilities in Egypt and Libya.
Apparently they did not speak, but Clinton delivered this news after 11 p.m.
“Two of our officers were killed in Benghazi by an Al Queda-like group: The Ambassador, whom I handpicked and a young communications officer on temporary duty w a wife and two young children. Very hard day and I fear more of the same tomorrow. Let's try again later.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/08/with-2-a-m-state-department-email-trove-82-percent-of-clinton-emails-now-released/
She was certain it was a "right wing conspiracy "against her husband with the Monica Lewinsky scandal. And lo and behold the little black dress came to light. He clearly lied under oath.
What does it take for Americans to wake up to what these two have done in the name of grabbing power, wealth and fame? I expect a recommendation to come down for an indictment against her. The evidence is mounting and it's her own emails that will take her down, not any right wing conspirator or as you put it MaryPage:
the foaming at the mouth pack of paranoid homo sapiens not only lack a desire for what the truth is, they want to slay the messengers who can lead them to and through the facts, rather than have that truth revealed.
I worked on her 2008 campaign so I am not relishing in the facts that are coming out that will destroy her political career. She has to take accountability as does Bill for breaking laws and making deals to profit for the Clinton Foundation while she was SOS.
For the record, I am an Independent and do not care for either of these candidates nominated for the presidency. I can remain unbiased and open to the truths, unlike those who have loyalty to an attached party, or emotions who want a woman president at all costs. While the politically correct are fighting for their personal agendas they are slowly destroying this nation, and trampling on the rights of those who do not share their ideology. It's a very sad time in our country. How do you choose between a possible criminal, and proven liars who has no scruples, or a celebrity character with no filter when he speaks? We are a laughing stock around the world.
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I can understand why Hillery Clinton would use her husband's server in their New New York house. (From what I read it was located in the area used by their Secret Service). Everything she says or does seems to be a conspiracy with those who don't like her. Someone tried to hack the server but according to FBI reported by journalists the hacker was not successful. However, many of the government servers have been hacked.
Our little local paper just reported that a local former soldier had his checking account wiped out by hackers. The paper says he was one of the many that had their personal information stolen from government personnel office. The investigation is ongoing. Maybe it was a wise decision on Clinton's part to have a personal server. Hopefully, the FBI investigation will settle this problem.
She was quite popular when she was Secretary of State and also as a New York senator. If she had decided not to run for President, her naysayers would be saying the Democrats should have talked her into running. However, if she is elected, I think she will be an excellent President and will get some good things done for our country.
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I was sincerely attempting to make the point that conspiracy theories and personal slanders seem to me to have become the be all and end all of the American conversation these days, and was not addressing the Clinton candidacy specifically. And I do mean the ongoing conversation loudly expressed on talk radio and television, repeated, of course, in print. ATTACK! seems to be the mode, and it is ugly and, in combination, makes so much noise and clatter that no voice of sanity can be heard over the fray. Maybe I am not making any sense, but this is the way my 87 year old brain is assimilating it all.
When I was younger, we used to marvel at the so called "yellow press" and "tabloid news," which was always full of lies such as half men/half goats having been discovered, and so on like that. We knew it was really stupid stuff, and very few paid any attention, albeit I am sure there were the gullible, or no papers would have been sold. Basically, I am trying to say that huge masses of our citizenry seem to eat up and propagate the salacious now, forget about the particular persons being maligned. To me, it appears as a mass mental illness. Our mothers used to tell us to believe nothing we hear and little we read until it has been verified. And hey, back then there was not as much of this stuff!
I fail to understand human beings who do not cringe at all the ugly words being slung so heedlessly like weapons meant to destroy. It is not indicative of the civilization I would prefer we live our days in. What I am referring to can also be heard in the way children and young people address their parents, teachers, and elders in general, and the manner and language employed in television shows of today. Appalling to my sensibilities, perhaps it seems ordinary to most folks today, and I belong back in "the olden days," as my grandchildren and great grandchildren refer to them!
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Journalists, reporters and media as a whole has become so biased they are not capable of reporting without injecting their own personal loyalty and opinions. The owners of the newspapers, radio stations and television stations are running their own agendas. And it has been going on for centuries, it's just in today's society there are no longer any boundaries. The attack ads I am seeing on TV are absolutely disgusting.
It was against the law for her to use her private server and it was kept in a bathroom closet. It went down a few times giving reason to believe it was hacked. She had NO legal right to delete any emails from that server. Because she is under investigation for a federal crime she should not even be allowed to run for the presidency. When did we decide to turn a blind eye to high crimes? As far as if she would make a good president, if Benghazi is any example then I have to disagree. She used her position as SOS for personal gain not only with Wall street and the big banks but the Clinton Foundation. More and more is being uncovered and I think it's only a matter of time she will be indicted, and removed from the nomination.
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There was no "law" against using a private server. At least, that is what I have read over and over again, and heard the "talking heads" repeat. They have stated, at the State Department, that they would not have "approved." It has been my impression, and mind, I know NOTHING about it, that they had not yet put anything in writing as to what the protocols were regarding emails, and the congress had passed no laws about them, either. I also think I read that this is a brand new problem they have to deal with, as only the last 3 or 4 Secretaries of State have used email at all. New times call for new regulations, and the "laws" have not kept up in this area until this came up with Colin Powell, and even then nothing was done.
I really am privy to no private information about this, only what is out there. I read The Washington Post and Time magazine and a number of other sources. But really, were there a "law" broken, I am sure Hillary Clinton would have been arrested.
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Hillary Clinton would never be arrested, do you think? Many in this administration and the Clinton's 'skirt' the law and are well-Hillary Clinton would never be arrested, do you think? Many in this administration, as well as the Clintons themselves, have 'skirted' the law and are well-cared for by the NYT, CNN, etc.
She was - at the least - supposed to get permission and did not. So, now she has to decide whether she is electronically illiterate (which really doesn't work, since she had access to many professionals) or careless or arrogant or inept in her use of the private e-mail server. None of those choices seem very positive for a presidential candidate, do they?
Asked on CBS earlier this month about an ongoing FBI investigation into her email arrangement, Clinton said, “I think last August I made it clear I’m more than ready to talk to anybody, anytime. And I have encouraged all of my assistants to be very forthcoming, and I hope that this is close to being wrapped up.”
Notwithstanding that comment, Clinton and her top aides declined to cooperate with a recently completed State Department inspector general probe into how the use of private email accounts by Clinton and previous secretaries affected record-keeping at State. That probe found her actions violated State Department policies, something she has steadfastly denied while acknowledging the arrangement was a “mistake.”
This is a sad election cycle indeed. Although we will be hard-pressed to say we didn't find out much that is not right with the whole election process, so that's a good thing, I think.
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I agree about your conspiracies theory, MaryPage. I'm appalled that Trump would answer a question about Vince Foster. The ads from the Trump campaign are also appalling. The man has no boundaries. Do we want him in the White House? I'm very upset with the media.
Hillary, and any person, is not responsible for their spouse's behavior. I certainly would not want to be.
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It has been stated many times that it was not against the law to use a personal server. Gov. Jeb Bush also used a personal server for much of his email when he was Governor. Not a good decision but certainly not criminal.
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I think if you are a person in a high office, whatever that office may be and whatever your political party may be, you must have a very high sense of fear about having your privacy invaded, to the point of paranoia. I remember Princess Diana being obsessed with this, and then a race to get away from it that one time brought about her death.
Perhaps this does not make sense, but I am allowing my instincts to follow an emotional path of being there, and trying to put myself in their shoes. I am also thanking the Powers That Be that I have led a life of anonymity. Good Grief, do you remember that ghastly tape that someone published for the whole world to hear back when Prince Charles was still married to Diana of him talking to Camilla? That is the sort of thing that should not happen, but does. Famous peoples intimate private lives are really none of our business, and we should not intrude. Our security agencies do the dirty listening for us, but do not publish unless there is clearly law breaking that impacts the safety of us, the Public. We can be absolutely certain that the NSA, FBI and CIA would have been following Mrs. Clinton's and everyone else's email conversations: every bit and piece of them!
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Who - no matter how well know, or not - would not want a personal email!?! And those people who might hit the tabloids - yes MaryPage, we used to consider that kind of story to be TRASH - certainly I understand Hillary having been lied about for decade after decade, would want a private email. Do we think that ANY politician or celebrity does not have a private email system? They all must have private conversations with family and friends and don't give them up to authority when they leave their jobs, and why should they. No wonder we get narcissists like Donald Trump who says whatever fits for the moment running for office, and we may get only that personality-type if we continue to insist that every single bit of people's lives belong to the public.
Being a history major, I know that we never asked that of any other politician in history.
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http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-alix-idrache-west-point-20160526-story.html
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I don't think I have heard anyone complaining that Hillary has a private server - just that she had no right to use it for public business. The State Department is hardly her own personal business, is it? Really? And if she's as ignorant of computers as the administration suggests, what is she doing receiving/sending State Department e-mails from a private server? She was responsible for classifying them. So, it's really nonsense to think no one should have concerns, especially when so many of the same characters are involved in donations to the Clinton Foundation, and where several 'shared personnel' were involved. She needed permission - she did not bother to get it. Arrogance? Incompetence?
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I watched The TED Talks on PBS twice tonight: first on MPT (Maryland Public Television) and then on WETA, which claims Washington, D.C., but is actually headquartered in Northern Virginia. It was extremely profound, the subject was War and Peace (not the book, but the actuality), and it was just one awful lot about women. If you missed it, look for reruns in your area. You will be glad you did. It takes just under one (1) hour, and there are not only talks, but films and musical moments.
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Nice article on the West Point grad. It's nice to read the positive side of how our military helps others in their times of difficulty and how beneficial immigrants are to the country.
I did "see" the TED talks tonight, sort of. We have a big family cookout on Memorial Day weekend because our dgt's birthday is the 28th. So at 8:00, the tv was on, but I was very tired and was wrapping up conversations with people who were leaving. I will look for it ondemand and really pay attention this time. By the way, a Haitian friend of our dgt's who was here today has a master's degree from Seton Hall, is a NJ state trooper and worked on the inter-agency Anti-terrorist squad. A good young man.
Jean
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This is D-Day. Not many of us around now to recall this was once a day of immense import.
Have you been following the sad, sad news of the thousands drowning in the Mediterranean Sea on an almost daily basis? Well, not thousands on a daily basis, but hundreds adding up to thousands. Many, many of them children. This is such a desperate world we inhabit.
And the ghastly tale of the 16 year old girl in Brazil who was drugged and raped by THIRTY men! She was treated as though she had no worth except as a piece of meat for their fun night out. It is so deeply ingrained in our civilization that women were created just to be the lackeys of men, and for their express pleasure. I had hoped to see the end of it in my lifetime, but realize now that even our religions are infused with this picture of how it is meant to be, and it is the way those of my gender are fated to be viewed by those of the other sex. Shame on our species!
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I am old enough to remember D-Day. The pictures of the soldiers running across the beach -- two soldiers pulling another up onto the bank. Often think of him and wonder if he survived. Most of the film footage of that day were accidently lost. Then following each day in the newspaper our progress across Europe.
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When I hear or read "D-Day," the very first thing I think of is those landing craft pulling up on the beaches and unloading hundreds upon hundreds of boys and young men with helmets on their heads and rifles in their hands. So terribly many would be dead within the hour, fodder to the business of war.
The next thing I think of is how I learned it was D-Day. Happens it was also graduation day at my boarding school, where I had just completed my Freshman year. We were at breakfast, long tables of excited young girls. Up at the faculty table, Miss Ward, our Headmistress, rang her little bell for attentive quiet. She stood up, and told us that General Eisenhower had announced on the radio that morning that Allied Troops had invaded France in Normandy.
We cheered, while tears ran down our cheeks. We did not know, because we were not allowed to have radios. Record players were permitted, but not radios. That next fall, I would sneak a very smallish one in anyway, and Lucy Donaldson and I would listen to the election results. We were about the only two girls at the school who were for FDR.
The next thing I remember about D-Day was in a later book, but it awed me no end. I think it was "The Longest Day" by Cornelius Ryan; but I am not positive. The thing was, the author interviewed EVERYone, including some Germans who had been on duty in the bunkers and lived to tell the tale. One remarked on it seeming a very ordinary day. He was drinking his coffee and looking out to the waters of the English Channel. Those vast waters were quiet. No sign of life. He looked away for a few moments, and when he looked back, he almost passed out from shock. As far as he could see, north, east and west, you could not see the water, but only a vast unending armada of ships, ships, ships and boats. That picture has always been in my head.
Finally, I think of the graves. Row upon row upon row of graves where American men lie forever in the soil of France; tended beautifully and endlessly by French volunteers. When Americans spat on things French back when France refused to join us in invading Iraq, ridiculously changing "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries," I shuddered at our rude behavior towards our forever friends and allies. Had it not been for the French fleet and Layfayette, we would still be pledging allegiance to the British! But they don't teach those things anymore.
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Interesting recollection and post MaryPage.
The movie "The Longest Day" may be the only war movie I have ever watched more than once. I was going to say "enjoyed" but that doesn't seem to be an appropriate word for the situation.
Jean
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Never did see the movie but like Kindsal the newspaper photos and newsreels in the movie theater are implanted in my head - I remember in black and white the newsreel showing how some never made it out of the beachcraft - I remember being all upset at how unfair that was and my mother did not know what to say that could make sense for me - I kept thinking they should have at least had a chance - and then I remember hearing how the hovercrafts unloaded further out so those sailing the vessel would not be shot which meant a boat that could not return for more and so the soldiers had to swim ashore, stay alive in the water and out of breath from their swim immediately start shooting.
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Did you HEAR Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts give a speech to the American Constitution Society this evening? She was stunning! She was a Pit Bull. She was a statesman and an orator of the old order. I was so proud!
I have been very low and depressed lately at the possibility of Donald Trump being president of these United States and Commander in Chief. OMG!
Well, Warren raised my spirits to the top of the pole. I now have bubbly HOPE again! We can do this! Woo Hoo!
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mogamom, I share the exact sentiments in your above post. I do not believe for one second Hillary is computer illiterate in this day and age. Her first reason for using her personal server for her SOS emails was because she did not want to use multiple devices. Yet, there are pictures of her holding a blackberry and other devices. NOW, we are being told she doesn't know how to use a computer. Come on women, we are smarter than this.
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We saw this coming:
WASHINGTON — In the latest and perhaps decisive battle over the role of women in the military, Congress is embroiled in an increasingly intense debate over whether they should have to register for the draft when they turn 18.
On Tuesday, the Senate approved an expansive military policy bill that would for the first time require young women to register for the draft. The shift, while fiercely opposed by some conservative lawmakers and interest groups, had surprisingly broad support among Republican leaders and women in both parties.
The United States has not used the draft since 1973 during the Vietnam War. But the impact of such a shift, reflecting the evolving role of women in the armed services, would likely be profound.
Under the Senate bill passed on Tuesday, women turning 18 on or after Jan. 1, 2018, would be forced to register for Selective Service, as men must do now. Failure to register could result in the loss of various forms of federal aid, including Pell grants, a penalty that men already face. Because the policy would not apply to women who turned 18 before 2018, it would not affect current aid arrangements.
more here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html?_r=0
They say women would not be 'forced' to serve in combat, but I don't see how they can stop that from happening - I don't think men get much of a choice, do they? I weep for my granddaughter. Just one more way men have enlisted women to take over their responsibility to 'provide and protect'. And we call it 'progressive'.
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Me, I am all for universal draft and service, such as they have in Israel. I see no reason why only males of our species should be cannon fodder. Why should my three sons be asked to die for their country, while my five daughters get off scot free? It makes no sense to me now, and never has done. I remember well the 4 years I lived at West Point while my dad, a graduate, taught Physics there. We had lots of cadets in and out of our house, as I had no less than 4 cousins there during those years. I was only 5 to 9 years of age, and yet indignant that girls could not go there. Yes, the discrimination against those of my gender infuriated me even then! I really celebrated when gals were finally admitted! And you know what? You would be surprised how many, many times we females have led the Brigade there, and here at the United States Naval Academy.
Both of my mothers: my birth mother and my stepmother, were Army nurses. They were never "in combat" as such, but both had classmates from the Walter Reed Army School of Nursing (Mother was Class of 1928, while Mama was 1932) who died in tents near the battlefields. Women have always been valiant, but gun loving lawmakers refused to allow a gun in their hands for them to protect themselves with, on the grounds they were the "weaker" sex. Doesn't seem to have occurred to them that they might need one sometime! When immigrants from all over the world settled our wild and woolly West, fathers and husbands taught the women to handle a rifle or shotgun. Many of these, too, out shot the men! And the men laughed and thought them freaks. The women? Well, they downplayed their abilities in order to allow the men to maintain their traditional beliefs of superiority.
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That's interesting about West Point - did you ever apply?
Ohhhh...I'll have to do some checking, but I thought that Israel tried using women in combat and stopped - because it just didn't work?
Women have long worked alongside men to protect their families, especially as the country was being settled. But men have often balked against having the burden of being the sole provider for their families (I understand that in ancient Israel women were even given the right to divorce their husbands if they refused to provide for them), so now I empathize with women who are forced into the work-force; who work long hours and, even if their husbands 'help out' at home, grieve for what they believe to be their primary fulfillment - caring for their families.
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I believe it was 1976 before women were accepted into the Corps of Cadets at West Point, which is, by the way, one of the most beautiful spots on the planet.
I was already a grandmother of three in 1976!
You know, I have never in my long life felt that being a mother identified me. My family means more to me than anything; I love them each passionately and infinitely, and they know it. But they are not who I AM! I worked most of my married life, so that we could own a home and my children could have all of the necessities and each could go to college. Never, ever did I grieve because I worked 40+ hours a week away from home. Would I LIKE to have been rich and not have had to do this? Oh no, I would have LOVED it! But even were I rich, I probably would have felt a strong urge to do some kind of work, even without pay. Volunteer work, for instance. I would, most likely, have spent many long hours at this, and hired help to keep my home going and meals cooked. I have never yearned to stay at home and was not born with domestic yearnings. I think men believe women feel this way, but the vast majority of women I have personally known have felt the way I do! There is not a thing in this world wrong with women who prefer staying at home; not at all. But we flesh and blood women are not Stepford Wives, either! We are individuals with gifts and talents and a keen urge to make our mark in the world with something we ourselves do. Motherhood is rife throughout the animal kingdom; nothing to it. Being a parent does not require 24/7 bondage, and children can have and feel total devotion from working parents, both mother and father.
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MaryPage,
Being a parent does not require 24/7 bondage, and children can have and feel total devotion from working parents, both mother and father.
I first of all would never consider being with my children 24/7 as "bondage" I would consider it a blessing. I was a stay at home Mom until my last child went to full day Kindergarten. I never saw myself as a "Stepford Wife." I then took a job as a computer lab instructor for the school my children went to so I could have the summers, holidays and other days off with them. When my first grandchild was born I opened my in-home daycare, I did all six of my grandchildren for free while building my business over sixteen years. Over those years I saw in some instances children were in great need of their parents to spend more time with them, while others seemed to fare okay. There were mothers who told me right upfront they are not the nurturing type who can stay at home with their children all day, they want and need a career. Others wanted to be home but needed or wanted the income they could bring into their family. Others felt guilt for not being able to spend more time with their children. One thing I can conclude is this..... every woman should have the free will and right to decide what she sees fit and best for her, and her family without others passing judgement or calling them stereotypical names.
Women have protested for "equal rights" and although it pains me to ever see an eighteen year old girl or boy have to go off to war, which could one day happen again, as it did years ago, we must understand it is what women have been fighting for. Equal rights mean equal rights. Me personally I still live by the word and intent of God. I pray not one of my granddaughters will ever have to register for the draft or be called up to fight. Call me whatever you choose, but this is how I feel. Eighteen is too young for any sex. Eighteen year olds are not allowed to drink alcohol because they feel they are not responsible enough to make good choices, so why are they allowed to be seen responsible enough to go off to war and possibly die at eighteen?
We have gotten ourselves into a real quandry.
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Clearly, you misread my comments. I was NOT calling stay at home moms Stepford Wives. I was pointing out that NONE of us, including stay at homes, were EVER Stepford Wives. Those, of course, were referenced from a well known work of fiction that became a film.
Nor did I say motherhood was a bondage. What I said was that it WAS NOT. Nor is it, for anyone.
Obviously, I need to improve my ability to communicate.
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I've known many women who have bitter feelings toward the feminist movement because they feel as though they 'bought the lie'; the lie that they could have it all - a career and a successful home life. Many are very bitter. That doesn't mean that there aren't women who have been successful at both - but many do not feel successful or fulfilled in either because they are simply overwhelmed. Because they can't live up to some real or imagined image of 'modern woman' they are depressed and feel inadequate.
And we do have 'the lost generation' as they're called. In fact, I'm still seeing public service ads about 1/3 of children coming home to an empty house which is blamed for many social ills.
I think raising the next generation of responsible, thinking adults is the highest calling for a woman, and is the single most important way of leaving a lasting mark on the world. The rest - for all its rewards - is chump change.
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To be a feminist means to believe in the full equality of men and women.
To be against feminism means to believe women are second class in their personhood.
Thank heavens all three of my (deceased) husbands were feminists, as are all 8 of my children, all 13 of my granddaughters, and, so far, nearly 20 of my 26 great grandchildren. In all fairness, the youngest are too little to speak up on this subject.
"the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
synonyms: the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; informalwomen's lib"
"a longtime advocate of feminism"
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I never heard the "lie" that women could have it all, but I certainly appreciated the women's movement, the emphasis on feminism, based on what I saw and experienced in my younger years. I don't know of any women who thought they could have it all, but a lot of my friends sure tried to have more in their lives than just being dependent on a man.
I must say that I think the draft should be equally applied or not exist at all. Unless we need to resort to drafting our young people again, it's nothing to worry about. If we do need the draft, then people will be assigned as appropriate, and frankly, we'll all be in such big trouble that we will have more than drafting women to worry about.
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Talking to many a young person - Mom's have always been meeting themselves coming - years back we, and our grands could send the children out to play so Mom's could 'get things done' but today, that is an additional job since many Mom's must accompany their children when they go out to play. I also see, as in the past, Mom's who were cleaning ladies and doing whatever jobs were allowed to woman brought up their families while they worked -
Over the years I have worked with many, many Chinese and Indonesian families and the moms leave for years at a time to get some higher education in order to be a doctor or other type of professional job - we do not think that way. The difference, these families have several generations bringing up the children and so work and child-rearing is a family endeavor.
I also hear from many young Moms that say, they have as good an education as their husbands and can make as much money so they do not see ignoring all the investment that was made in that education as well as the years of growing their skill level and therefore, they see that those who are trained to care for children as no different than the wealthy and the royals of other nations having nannies -
As to miss-behavior - we have many influences today that we did not have as recently as 30 years ago - we cannot blame it all on Moms working - the media has desensitizes many children so that some of their emotions are buried at a young age - I remember seeing the witches in Snow White and having to hide my eyes in my mother's arms and the story on film of The Wizard Of Oz was one terrorizing scene after another and yet, today kids as young as 3 and 4 take these movies in stride - so that as we desensitize children by a constant exposure to horror and brutality they see real life behavior through a different lens.
30 years ago enrolling in 4 or 5 classes at a Community Collage cost max $1200 where as today it is more like $12,000, just for a Community Collage - not only does a family require two incomes for a decent middle class lifestyle but again, the women are equally educated with developed skills in the workplace that to ignore is a waste of that investment to even bury for 10 years till a child is in middle school. To us it may seem like having it all but in reality for many it is a basic necessity and for others it is honoring the investment made by parents in their daughters and the hard work the daughter put in to gain the education and skill level in the workplace that she brings that same integrity to do the best job she can with her children.
Over and over we can see differences between the lifestyles for children today compared to when we were young moms and I think we are being unfair to say that moms today should go back to being as they were 50 years ago.
Instead, we should be attempting to help them feel good about their contribution to society because of their skills, education and sincere desire to bring up healthy, adjusted children that enjoy the opportunities that are now 4 times the cost of just 30 years ago.
Few mothers slough off their caring - who does the everyday caring may have changed but they do care and want the best for the children while honoring those who invested so much in them from their parents to the company where they work. As a caring women I think we need to support Moms rather than offer critical judgment.
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I agree, we need to support moms, whatever their choice (if they have a choice; many don't.)
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I'm just the messenger. I can't begin to tell you the stories I've dealt with in my nearly 40 years of mental health. It isn't popular to be anti-feminism to be sure. I can say that I have never heard of feminism described as the full equality of men and women. It has, in many instances, become an excuse for 'male-bashing'.
As far as the economy changing - well, that is part of it, isn't it? Of women feeling forced to enter the work force just to help provide for the basics. Women I'm speaking of do not find education as unnecessary for life; education used to be seen as important in the process of personhood, not just for getting a job, more money, more stuff. Many women used their talents and giftedness in voluntary work. That has changed as well - deeply affecting the economy - as so many important tasks now have to be hired out.
But this: To be against feminism means to believe women are second class in their personhood.
I'm sorry, but this is just totally untrue! Your personhood is not defined by a career, a job, skills, parenthood, or any '-ism'. It is indeed inherent in the full dignity of every human being: it is not granted by some organization, cause, political group, law, individual. This is part of the 'all we have to do is just change the definition' mentally espoused by some women groups.
Being second-class in your personhood comes from inside an individual; it's something they buy into and can change within themselves. And this mentality is what has demoralized women; it makes it 'unsafe' to disagree with a feminist. So I'm not surprised that out-spoken adamant feminists don't 'hear' other women being adversely affected by their rhetoric.
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If a woman's job is not honored as important and valuable then the next question becomes why would she need education - we know in the past 30 years high education is not for being a better all round person - the liberal arts graduates the least number of students - higher education is to increase your value in the market place - so if a women is not using her education and skill she is allowing that investment not to have a return on the dollars and time and energy spent so the next thing would be why educate a women equal to a man if she is not going to use the education in the market place to not only increase her family income but to increase the economic value to a company and therefore increase the economics of a nation - we see article after article how the Middle East is not producing the wealth in the 21st century except in oil because half their population are uneducated women.
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We all used to believe in a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. Then we started thinking that we needed to be paid what we are worth. Anyone skilled in some area and having a good work ethic is worth more than anyone can pay.
I went to school for nursing. But a good deal of that education, just as the first two years of a bachelor's degree today, is still liberal arts. I used my degree in several ways - some of which I received money for, some I didn't - but it was all medical or mental health skills helping individuals and families. It was all important. It all had worth. It honored God. And it saved taxpayers a good deal of money. All ways you can contribute to your family, community, country, world are not measured only in money. That's why it's worth being educated; to learn all you can about all you can. It's an investment in life. And there are still many ways to do it without mortgaging your future.
I learned early in my career that no one could pay me what I was worth. Nor did I expect them to.
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MaryPage,
To be against feminism means to believe women are second class in their personhood.
Mogomom, I'm sorry, but this is just totally untrue! Your personhood is not defined by a career, a job, skills, parenthood, or any '-ism'. It is indeed inherent in the full dignity of every human being: it is not granted by some organization, cause, political group, law, individual. This is part of the 'all we have to do is just change the definition' mentally espoused by some women groups.
Being second-class in your personhood comes from inside an individual; it's something they buy into and can change within themselves. And this mentality is what has demoralized women; it makes it 'unsafe' to disagree with a feminist. So I'm not surprised that out-spoken adamant feminists don't 'hear' other women being adversely affected by their rhetoric.
I 100% agree with you. I have seen woman bashing and men bashing from feminists. Gloria Steinem the famous feminist had the nerve to say in an interview with Bill Maher about the young females who support Bernie Sanders, “Women are more for [Clinton] than men are. ...First of all, women get more radical as we get older, because we experience. ...Not to over-generalize, but ... men tend to get more conservative because they gain power as they age, women get more radical because they lose power as they age."And, when you’re young, you’re thinking, where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie...”
Maher then joked that he wouldn’t be allowed to say such a thing, lest Steinem slap him, because chalking young women’s politics up to their desire to meet boys actually is a profoundly sexist thing to do. (It’s also the case that people don’t appear to radicalize, or change much at all politically, strictly due to age.) It’s just too bad that insight had to come from Bill Maher instead of Gloria Steinem.
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/129335/feminist-gloria-steinem-says-young-women-support-bernie-want-attention-boys
Now that I am retired I volunteer for an organization for pregnant women of all walks of life who need educated, helped financially and need support through their pregnancy and the first three years of their child's life. Most do come from poverty, high crime, drug infested areas of the city, and are trying to do better for their child. We encourage, educate and support them so they will never feel second class about themselves due to the lack of education or skills. They don't have time to think about if they are feminist or not, they just know they want a better life for their child.
nlhome, I never heard the "lie" that women could have it all
It was and still is the unspoken myth. Women feel guilty every day causing them stress, anxiety, and feeling they lack something because they know there is no way to "have it all." As a daycare provider for sixteen years, I heard it from all my mother's who dropped off their child/children at 6:30 a.m. and picked up at 6:00 p.m. They felt their child bonded more with me than them because in actuality, I spent more waking hours with them throughout their week than either parent did. I saw their firsts.....steps, sounds, smiles, crawling, standing, sitting, and when they were sick I usually would see the first signs of that as well. It would break my heart when a mother would cry because they were hoping to see these milestones first. Sometimes I would not tell them so they would think once they did see it they could enjoy thinking it was their first time ever. I would tell them, "It is their first with you!"
For me I want equal rights for everyone, but women and men are different in their makeup, we were created differently for a reason. You won't see too many Dads cry because they missed "the first" because as much as they love their child, it's not in their makeup to think it's something to cry about. We can pass all the bills and laws in the world, but ultimately no woman or man will ever be exactly the same. It's all about DNA. I am sixty three years old and I have not become more radical in age, I do not consider myself as a feminist, although I will stand up for my constitutional rights. I will always acknowledge I am a woman, built differently, think differently, and created differently than the male. I love that I am a woman. Not second-class to anyone.
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I think we should just agree to disagree. I, too, am glad I am a woman, as I would not like to be a man. You have been extremely fortunate not to have felt discrimination in your lifetime. I am 87, and can remember seeing and feeling the different treatment before I was five years of age. It is still, in my eyes and to my sensibilities, rife throughout this society we live in and horrid throughout the world. Just the other day it was in the news that a married mother of a ten month old was killed BY HER FAMILY because she had married without their approval. KILLED! An "honor" killing. No, to me, women are vastly superior to men and in constant danger from them. How lovely that you have not had your life tainted with these sad feelings. I envy you, actually! But the life experiences I have had tell a far different tale, and I have lived one life, while you have known another, and, when all is said and done, that is the way of it. I have no issues, no goals, nothing to prove. Every day I awaken surprised to still be alive. Life, at my age, is a matter of existing in the given hour and basking in the love of a large, extended family. I can, and do, recount my life experiences to the younger generations, and, in my case, my memories are different from the ones you pass on to your progeny. So be it.
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mogomom,
I learned early in my career that no one could pay me what I was worth. Nor did I expect them to.
I love this and have always felt this way. When you feel good about yourself, and know your own self worth, whether you have a career or a stay at home Mom, you KNOW you are worth more than any amount of $$ you could be paid for what you do. I have not always had an easy life, I grew up in a poor home, there was no talk of college in our home because the income was to put food on the table. I was only one of two who graduated high school out of the seven siblings. Because I believed in myself and had a Franciscan nun as a mentor later in my years I was able to succeed in areas I would never have imagined. I was never paid for the experience and knowledge I had in technology, but for me it was a trade off because my job also allowed me to be home with my three beautiful children when they were out of school. I knew my worth, my sons when they got to high school and college told me they can't understand why I did not teach technology in the high schools and make so much more money than I did at the elementary Catholic school I chose to stay at. I told them, I knew my worth and it was my choice and never regretted it. I'm not angry, I don't feel the need to bash women or men, now that I am retired I just want to continue to help those in need and continue to know what I put into society is what I will get out of it.
MaryPage, Yes, I agree, we can respectfully agree to disagree. Because of our views, life experiences, and what we chose to take with us into our senior years or leave behind will surely show our differences on today's life stage.
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TIME magazine tackles this very subject in a facinating article in the June 27, 2016 issue. A couple of quotes: "Being privy to the conversations that men have among themselves really does give me an indication of how they think about women,"he says. "And sometimes it can be really scary." "And it's really just an indication of how dangerous this world is for women."
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I've been the caretaker for the past week, so I've been among the missing. It was kind of fascinating to read thru your posts. I wonder what it is that makes us oppositional. I think when we sense that the "other" person has a bit of philosophy that differs from our own, we may become oppositional. (I love a good discussion of various sides of an issue)
As you know I have been a feminist from birth, even before the 60s "second wave" started. My definition is a believer in equality for women and men in all areas of life. Every feminist I have known in the last 45 yrs (100s) has had that same definition. To be perfectly honest, i really am a humanist, i believe in equal opportunity for everyone on earth. (I don't completely understand how "humanist" has become a philosophy to snear at. How can anyone, especially the millions of people who believe in a religion, not believe that every person deserves to be able to be as fully human as they can be? My humanism came from years of hearing Methodist ministers say "we are all children of God." I'm not now religious in an organized religion sense, but I still believe everyone deserves to be the best that they can accomplish.)
As I read all at once your posts of the last two weeks, I thought, I bet if we were in a room together we could find more things that we agree on than disagree on. BUT as bellemarie and MaryPage have said, we don't have to agree, or convince anyone else on the site that "I am right, and I have to convince you to agree with me." What a boring life I would have had if everyone I met agreed with me........there are times when I wish my husband and I agreed more, but that's another story. :) Even there, one of the things I have loved about being with him is he has totally different interests in many areas than I. He is the bio-scientist, I am the social scientist. I love history - as the stories of people - he has very little interest in history. I am curious about almost everything and he can fill in my lack of knowledge about many things.
Yes, men and women are definitely different, and we talk about different things and I prefer many women's company over many men I know, but that doesn't mean as a feminist I dislike men. In my life experience I have had to battle men's thinking and competitive behaviors and there are some of those guys I really don't like, but just as with people in any category I would not dislike all of any of a category out of hand. (Isn't that an interesting phrase "out of hand." I will have to go find out where it came from). My feminist women and men friends would say the same.
I am an advocate for women in many categories, especially women's history. We (men and women) need to know that women have done everything men have done. I am an advocate because women have often had a raw deal from their society or time. And I have been privy to men's discussions about women. (I worked for the Dept of Army for 16 yrs.) Not a fun thing. Yes, women have said rotten things about men too, but in most situations men are in power. Much of the anti-Hillary sentiment is because she is a women, and it would be true of any strong, powerful woman who would run for president in either party.
O.k., I should stop. Hopefully, I can get back sooner rather then later to continue this interesting discussion.
Jean
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If I had money and time and youth, I would work hard at ending this:
http://www.goodweave.org/child_labor_campaign/child_labor_handmade_rugs_carpets
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/child-labor-india-carpets_n_4696226.html
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Also this:
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/07/21/424984178/female-genital-mutilation-is-a-u-s-problem-too
and this:
http://ktla.com/2016/06/19/pregnant-woman-husband-tortured-and-shot-dead-in-honor-killing-in-pakistan/
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Jean,
I bet if we were in a room together we could find more things that we agree on than disagree on.
I think so too. I love that we can have different views and still respect each other. How boring life would be if everyone had the same ideas, ideology, beliefs etc. For me differences are like a color wheel....bursting with strong beautiful hues, and also soft pastels, all making the wheel exciting and interesting.
Much of the anti-Hillary sentiment is because she is a women, and it would be true of any strong, powerful woman who would run for president in either party.
I disagree with this and it seems to give so little faith in people to be able to see beyond gender. I talk with so many anti Hillary people and their largest concern about her is she is not at all trustworthy, she has been caught in so many lies, she is also not likeable, unlike her husband who has a charismatic personality that draws people to him even when he has lived a life of adultery. Hillary avoids people, media, questions and laughs a lot when she doesn't want to answer questions posed to her. She gets angry when asked about her decisions as SOS, it's as if she feels she does not have to account to anyone, just like with her personal server. She knows she did wrong, she knows there is classified emails on that server, she know her email to her daughter on the night of the Benghazi attacks proves she lied to the American people about the attacks and she stood in front of those four dead Americans coffins in front of their loved ones, on national television and boldly lied. I can not get that image out of my mind.
It's got so little to do with her being a woman, even though that is the platform she herself wants to make it about. We Americans are so much more brighter and better than that, and it is an insult for her to think we are less intelligent to not see beyond her sex gender. As a woman who worked to help her get the Democratic nominee back in 2008, not because she is a woman, I am not supporting her today, not because she is a woman, but because as SOS she did not show me trustworthiness, or strength to be president of the United State of America. Sadly to say for me as an Independent, I am sad to see the two candidates we have to choose from in November.
For the record Jean, I can think of a few strong, powerful, trustworthy, capable women that I would vote for.
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MaryPage, I read an article not too long ago (I wish I had kept the site) that spoke of an Islamic web site explaining the medical reasons for female circumcision. I immediately went to the site. It does promote the practice though I am more than a bit skeptical about the science they base it on; but then I need to explore their claims.
mabel1015j, welcome back! I agree. Our experiences are different. And we probably would find much more that we agree on if we were face-to-face; this forum has its limitations. I do believe, though - as it has been my experience - that much of what people object to about Hillary has nothing to do about her being a woman. Even a strong woman. I wonder how Margaret Thatcher managed to be elected in Britain. She surely was a strong woman. And I have heard plenty of negative comments about her - as I'm sure I have about any and all of our current presidents. Still, many admired her.
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Well, I can testify to having read whole books on the subject, and OUR scientists state unanimously that it is very BAD for women. Some of the little girls die from it: from botched surgeries or too much bleeding or infections from unsterile knives or razor blades. All women suffer ever afterwards from it. The pain and discomfort never stop. And all seem to believe that there can BE no reason for it other than the one the majority of the men will tell you: i.e. that it is to keep the women from enjoying sex and therefore making sure their wives have no inclination to cheat on them.
The really insidious thing, and the main hurdle Molly Melching had to get over in order to get town by town by town of women to stop doing it, is that a girl who has not been mutilated is considered UNMARRIAGABLE in these societies! It has become a traditional FEMALE ceremonial procedure, insisted upon and carried out BY women. And if the mother or grandmother or aunt or whomever is the female guardian of a girl cannot assure the female relative of the boy who is seeking a wife that their girl has had FGM, the girl will not be considered as a possible bride! Imagine! That is such a difficult mind set to overcome, and Molly and others have been extremely good at doing it!
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Mogamom - I had that perception of people being anti- Hillary because she is a strong woman based on what I've heard mostly men say about her. That is a narrow sample to make a decision about the situation. I haven't heard as many women saying negative things.
Jean
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I've heard many women talk about Hillary, including those interviewed at the polls in the primary. And the article citing young feminists I posted earlier. They all said they didn't trust her. Some who voted for Sanders spoke specifically about her dealings with big banks (the money she was paid for speeches which she has repeatedly refused to disclose), the special interest groups and big business/big bank groups that give to her campaign, funding that has come in from other countries to the Clinton Foundation while she was secretary of state and expected to be the next president, etc. Hillary has a long history that people can point to. They've watched how she operates. I really have never heard a man describe Hillary as a 'strong woman'? Men I know don't think she's honest, that she's self-serving. That's interesting.
For me - I have spoken before about my objections to her regarding women's issues; but also, I can't believe how easily she lies. I cringe. How does she ever expect to get away with it?
(I actually favored Kasich as I thought he had the best qualifications - a real breadth and depth of public service. Oh, well.)
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The obstetrician I read on the Islamic site said that the procedure done on women was for hygiene reasons, just as circumcision is performed on men. He said that it helps prevent multiple UTI's and prevents mouth cancer in men who engage in oral sex. He also said that it heightens a woman's pleasure during sex. He complained that women in the west favor male circumcision simply because that is a Jewish custom. In other words, our objections to the procedure is simply because we are bigoted against Muslims. Isn't it just so easy any more to simply dismiss a person's legitimate concerns with some reference to some phobic label? It'd be funny if it weren't so hurtful.
I have never heard of any of these explanations before. As for hygiene, I did have an eighty year old male patient who had had a circumcision for hygienic reasons. I've never heard the same for a woman. I'm much more inclined to agree with your post, MaryPage.
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Fascinating history in the June 27th The New Yorker titled The Woman Card. I think I have said many times previously in posts in this forum that I was born and raised a Republican and spent many years of my life avidly working for the party. But I am also my own person, a principle dear to the hearts of we Virginians, and when my party did a huge flip-flop, it had betrayed me and so I had to leave. So sad, because I can remember so well listening to the Republican convention in the summer of 1940. I was eleven years old, and chanting “We Want Wilkie!” along with the crowd.
Well, here are some facts. Each one can be confirmed with research:
Hilary Clinton used to be a Republican.
Donald Trump used to be a Democrat!
The Women’s Rights movement was founded in 1848. The advocates of women’s rights were closely aligned with THE REPUBLICAN PARTY!
They wanted the vote for women and Negros. Eventually they got it for negro men, but not for women of either race. Why? Charles Sumter said: “We know how the Negro will vote, but are not so sure of the women.” Yep, the guys inserted the word “male” into the 14th Amendment, and that, My Dears, made all the difference. Women were disillusioned, dismayed, and disappointed; but as it points out in this article, their influence in matters political were felt first and longest in the Republican Party.
Teddy Roosevelt was the first candidate for President to aggressively court women.
Black women worked only for the G.O.P. in order to fight the Democrats, which had become the party of Southern Whites.
The EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT was first introduced into Congress in 1923, six years before I was born.
In 1940, the Republican National Committee endorsed this amendment formally in its platform! Did you KNOW that!?!
By 1960, the majority of Republican Party workers were female. I was one of them. Avidly, I might add!
In 1968, for the first time since 1940, the Grand Old Party DROPPED its endorsement of Equal Rights from their platform! I was beyond horrified!
At the 1972 Republican convention, Republican feminists demanded the E.R.A. to the platform. They won.
But in 1976, the platform committee defeated the E.R.A. by a single vote. Just one. That’s all it takes.
By 1980, I knew my party had done a huge flip flop on me, and I have not voted Republican since. The whole history astonishes me. The party of Lincoln abandoned all of his principles
Hilary Clinton is far from untrustworthy: she is precisely the opposite of that. When Bill Clinton was first in the public eye, Hilary was on the American Bar Association's list of the 100 outstanding lawyers in the United States! She and Bill were married, but she had not taken his name for professional reasons. She was Hilary Rodham.
Immediately, when she started speaking up, men cringed at her assertiveness and started with the nasty remarks. The people of the United States have heard these for a quarter of a century now: a whole generation, so of course they associate those traits with her. Brainwashing, is what it is. Blatant and anti-female propaganda.
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That was a very interesting history, MaryPage! I think it's fair to say that people in both parties feel betrayed - at least that's what I keep hearing. The Democrats as I remember were always portrayed to me as the party for the common man and Republicans were for the wealthy and powerful. Now I hear that no one is for the common man. They are all in it for themselves. They wheel and deal, court special interest groups, live high-on-the-hog. Money gets doled out to friends and supporters. One of the things I've heard Trump rail about is cronyism; he's seen plenty of it in NY. And the crooked bidding system.
But Hillary I know has lied so many times. That she was fired on in Bosnia, that she was named after a man who climbed Mt Everest. Silly lies that just seem so demeaning while appearing to be attempts at self-promotion. And that's not propaganda - it's what we've all heard from her own mouth. She has betrayed us, but still is happy to use us.
I've no doubt that she's a brilliant lawyer. They both know the law. That in itself is also problematic since they're seen as using the law to serve their own purposes and not having to face the consequences. A woman for president? Certainly - no reason not to have a woman as president. But not this woman!
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Mary Page,
Hilary Clinton is far from untrustworthy: she is precisely the opposite of that.
Have you been seeing and listening to the voters. Even those who are voting for Hillary will say they don't feel she is trustworthy.
https://www.americarisingpac.org/q-poll-hillary-clinton-not-trustworthy-doesnt-care-about-voters-problems/
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/287775/gallup-poll-democratic-voters-opinion-hillary-clinton-new-low/
The public’s impression of Hillary Clinton leaves much to be desired. The words that first spring to mind when the public hears Clinton’s name are “dishonest/liar/don’t trust her/poor character.” Clinton’s only saving grace is that she is seen as “capable and experienced.”
“Overall, 29 percent of Americans offer a positive observation about Clinton while 51 percent express something negative,” said Gallup.
The Gallup data appear to mirror research done by British-based pollster YouGov, which found Clinton to be the least honest and trustworthy of all Democratic and Republican candidates.
Read more: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/43445-2/#ixzz4CQ4nTIJw
Follow us: @TheLibRepublic on Twitter
MaryPage, I just finished reading about the Grimke sisters, abolitionists in the 1800's. I had heard of these events regarding the two parties. I am an Independent and hear from both democrats and republicans on how their party's ideology has changed and they are disappointed and discouraged. Mogomom has posted, the primary reasons for the party's change. They have become self serving and care very little about what Americans voice they want. They have become indebted to lobbyists and special interest groups to the point they owe their body and soul to paying them back for their donations. I heard yesterday Hillary has 42 million left in campaign funds and Trump has 1.3 million.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/republicans-cash-crunch-donald-trump/
Trump refused to accept major donations during the primaries so he would not be indebted to those big donors, instead he used his own money. Imagine the favors Hillary will have to fulfill to those HUGE donors.
I am only stating facts, not favoritism to either candidate. Being an Independent gives me the objectiveness and capability to see both parties without being attached by a loyalty. Neither party is what it was centuries ago.....change can be good at times, and bad at times. In politics today, I think it's a dogfight and the biggest bite will possibly win. Sad times we are in.
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This is the sort of thing we are up against. Insidious, and born in a hatred of women and a deeply innate urge to keep them "in their place," which is to say, subservient.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/23/opinion/hillary-gossip-redux.html?login=email&ref=todayspaper&_r=0
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I don't see where you conclude this book amounts to:
This is the sort of thing we are up against. Insidious, and born in a hatred of women and a deeply innate urge to keep them "in their place," which is to say, subservient.
It's just a tell all book by someone you can either believe, or not believe, it is insignificant to what has already been exposed of her. I don't see where it has anything to do with keeping a female in her place or subservient. We all know she can lose her temper, she did it at the hearings when she sat and lied. She knew it had NOTHING to do with a video, her email to her daughter Chelsea proved she knew it was a terrorist attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka0_nz53CcM
Hillary lies so much, she does not even realize she does it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uT68riwrFI
Why won't she release the transcripts for all her speeches to Goldman Saks? What is she hiding? She knew she was running for president in 2016, it was a done deal when she stepped aside for Obama to be the nominee in 2008. Does she honestly think the American people are that ignorant?
Geez Mickey Mouse would be better than either of these candidates.
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What amazes me is how Hillary said leaving the White House they had, "two nickels to rub together." The Clintons left the White House in debt and are now, Forbes analysis of the Clinton family's holdings suggests that their net worth is somewhere in the range of $45 million. Splitting the value of the shared assets in half suggests that Hillary Clinton has a net worth of roughly than $22.5
Famously, the Clintons left the White House in debt, owing to a range of legal expenses. Disclosures from the period suggest that the pair had as much as $1.8 million in assets and as much as $10.6 million in legal fees.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/27/what-is-hillary-clintons-net-worth.aspx
She and Bill became millionaires off of speeches they made in regions who abhor women.
http://gawker.com/yeah-ok-i-m-just-pointing-out-she-is-not-in-fact-wo-1757135053
I don't believe for one instance Hillary is a feminist, and has women's rights forefront, or in the back of her mind.
http://www.mintpressnews.com/hillary-clinton-is-no-friend-to-women/206996/
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Hillary is much more a friend to women than any of the Republican candidates who had the most press in this pre-election times. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think Donald Trump would do anything for anyone unless it helped him first.
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Trump will once again profit from the pain of those not blessed with billions. It was the retired folks in Great Britain who yearned to go back to "the good old days" and voted to leave the EU. Weirdly, none of them understands economics, and now it is they who will suffer as their incomes plummet and the cost of goods soars. The worst of it is, all yearnings are useless, and what they have done over there will affect us adversely, as well. Had so hoped that interest rates might rise soon and boost my personal income a little, but now am doubtful there is any hope of that in the lifetime left me. Well, I am accustomed to adapting to the whims of this world, and so will continue to pinch myself so as to know for certain THIS is what is really happening, and will punch another hole in my belt and pull that ever tighter. Hold on there, MaryPage! The day will come when you will no longer give a hoot!
We thought we had seen the waning days of the mighty British Empire, and certainly that is true, but what will take place now will break our hearts.
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I just don't know how Trump can profit from the UK becoming a sovereign nation. This has to do with the UK wanting to get a handle on the immigration. The EU is allowing anyone in, and the so called refugees are not being vetted whatsoever, they are refusing to assimilate, and are causing horrific crimes. The pundits didn't see this coming so of course the stock market dropped drastically, but I listened to many experts and they say it will all balance out. Trump did see this coming, and if he benefits at all it will be in votes at the polls in November because Hillary and Obama did not see it happening. Trump has given much to the lower income class by hiring them in all his hotels, casinos and resorts. I'm not a huge Trump fan, but I do think it's unfair to blame Trump for what the people of the UK voted and decided they want in their nation.
I'm not ready to take on an Eeyore attitude about this.
I'm glad the Supreme Court voted to put a halt to Obama overreaching his authority with his executive amnesty, and stopping the immigration plan he had in mind. It is incompetent and irresponsible to continue to allow refugees from areas that hate us into our country without proper vetting. Not to mention how it hurts the economy, they receive benefits from assistance programs, which our country can not afford. The United States does not have jobs for who is already here, let alone try to provide jobs for the millions Hillary and Obama want to admit without vetting properly.
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Let's get real here. The Supreme Court only has EIGHT justices now, and the vote was split evenly in the matter of the President's executive order. ANYtime the Court splits evenly, the matter automatically is thrown back upon the authority of the court that last ruled and caused the case to be sent on to the Supremes. So the Supreme Court DID NOT rule against President Obama. The facts on the table are that they were unable to rule either way. There was no ruling.
Because the Republicans are refusing to follow the law of the land and vote on the President's nomination to fill the 9th and empty spot on the Court.
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Do all of you want open borders? It is not working well in Europe - or here - is it? Our borders are not being protected because this administration refuses to enforce the immigration laws we have, even though they swore to do so.
To Clarify:
The law of the land does not require either party to vote on any president's nomination for Supreme Court:
The Washington Post explains the Constitution regarding Supreme Court nominations (see site below). Here it also says:
"Both Democrats and Republicans have often blocked judicial nominations by filibustering them or otherwise preventing them from coming to a vote. In one well-known case, the Democrats held up George W. Bush’s nomination of Miguel Estrada to the DC Circuit for over two years, until he was finally forced to withdraw without ever getting a vote of any kind. They did so because they had concerns about Estrada’s judicial philosophy – exactly the same reason why Republicans might end up blocking Obama’s Supreme Court nomination today."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/17/the-constitution-does-not-require-the-senate-to-give-judicial-nominees-an-up-or-down-vote/
And Obama has made erroneous claims about his nominee. There's enough blame to go around I think.
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A 4-4 vote clearly showed the Supreme Court is letting the ruling stand. It is common practice to NOT allow a lame duck president nominate and get an approval for a new Supreme Justice. This is crucial to this election in just 5 months, why would they vote on Obama's nominee?
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No! I do not want open borders. UK is taking the lead and I see other nations to follow. Trump had the foresight, he has legitimate concerns for protecting our borders. Democrats want to allow millions more in because our population has decreased and they know favoring refugees in, giving them state help will assure them more votes. This is why Obama wanted to use his executive over reach on the immigration/amnesty plan. Hillary is in favor of his plan as well.
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I have never understood what is meant by a closed border. At what point do we consider it closed? Why haven't they developed a system to ensure ever one entering on a visa leaves the country when the visa expires? More people enter that way than through the desert. It is impossible to build a fence across the entire southern border due to terrain constraints, agreements we have with Mexico on wildlife concerns (water, migration) and ranchers who exchange grazing land and access to water with Mexican ranchers.
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I don't think any country can actually "close off" their entire borders. The idea is to prevent anyone and everyone from crossing over into your country illegally. Visas are great, but the problem is, the United States is no longer enforcing the laws. I would more than welcome any and all who go through the proper legal procedures to enter our country. They must be vetted, and the problem we are having today is that there are those from terrorist nations who have NO proof of who they really are. Today is a different world, we must protect our borders/country from those who want to do us harm.
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Have just watched a DVD of Michael Moore's WHERE TO INVADE NEXT. It has nothing to do with war or any previous wars of ours, lost or won. Basically, it is a tale of how a variety of other nations treat their citizens. Very elevating to the spirit, especially for women. When he gets to Iceland, you will want to stand up and cheer. Very enjoyable. Full of optimism and Hope!
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One more attack by what they are attributing to ISIS. They seem to be coming more and more closer and now they are warning airports are seeming to becoming main targets.
http://www.ibtimes.com/list-recent-isis-attacks-islamic-state-group-hits-targets-belgium-syria-2016-2388059
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I have listened to Hillary being criticized for everything from staying with her husband when he was caught cheating on her to not caring about her friend under attack in Benghazi to using private email. I have listened to her being called a liar, untrustworthy, a shrew, and a bitch. I get it. Many people do not like Hillary. I do not have to like Hillary to believe that she is extremely well qualified with both the experience and the intelligence to be President of the United States. I admire her for finding her way through the male-dominated world of politics to become a US Senator, Secretary of State, and the Democratic nominee for the Presidency. I appreciated the grace she showed, as a defeated candidate in 2008, not only supporting, but campaigning for and with President Obama. I am amazed by the courage, and patience she demonstrated as she testified before a Congressional committee that in the name of investigating Benghazi for the 9th time, was a partisan political attempt to destroy her as a candidate. I will vote for her in November, not as the best of two bad choices or as a vote against Trump or because she is a woman, but because she is the best person for the job.
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YES!
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Oh, well said! I am just so sick of the obvious, blatant, overwhelming lies told about Hillary. Told and told and told and told, repeated ad nauseum, with the sole propaganda ploy of making them stick; of causing people whose lives are too frantic from day to day and week in and week out to allow them the luxury of seeking the truth to doubt their instincts to trust her.
The Truth is she has been a good and faithful servant to her God, her family and her country from childhood. She does not deserve the vile ingratitude piled on top of the realities she has had to work through. I am with her, anyway, but the truly scary thing is she is our only Sane choice! We have just seen the craziness of bumper sticker mentality make the once great UK vote to leave the United States of Europe, their last hope. Russia is grinning like the Cheshire Cat, and hoping voters here will fall for the same disastrous carnival act.
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I agree completely with Mkaren and MaryPage. Hillery has my vote!
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I am so sick of people trashing Hillary. Think I will stop reading
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People trash everything and everybody. That's the reason I quit watching a lot of the news and get mine from three apps, the BBC, because they are 5 hours ahead of us and up on more of an international slant, CNN, which has literally hundreds of stories between them, you can sift thru the bias, and blatant breathless sensationalism, and one for Spanish football, which is more interesting than either one of the others.
Today there's a film (can't remember if it's CNN or BBC) on aspirin in soluble form, not the way we get it or a pill in suspension, actually demolishing brain tumors in a petri dish, very exciting news.
I've been reading the comments here about "feminism." I don't know what a "feminist" is. I know a lot of people claim to be one. To me, and it may be only me, I kind of tense up at that announcement, because they seem to harangue and rant to the wrong audience. I guess it's hard to tell who is with you and who against, so one blast suits all? Establish your position? And then once established, what? I'm not sure what preaching to the choir accomplishes.
Yes the situation on women's rights in some foreign countries is horrendous, lots and lots of instances and links. Outrage. Truly awful and horrible. I notice when the discussion here has any desire to disagree on one point, they come flooding out rather than discussion of the actual issue.
I haven't done any of those things to anybody. Frankly the human rights situation in the same countries is horrible and awful, too. The world is an awful place sometimes. Everybody agrees. I wonder if there is some way to put our outrage into positive steps or organizations trying to positively stop the atrocities, and if this could make more of a difference.
I guess I'm saying I don't feel victimized in America as a woman, and if I've had a problem as one, I don't know it.
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'Tis true, to my way of thinking. There are often monologues in duet.
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Ginny,
I agree with all you said. While women were heavy into feminism in the 60's and 70's, I really didn't pay much attention. I very self absorbed in myself, not untypical of late adolesence, I think. Then I got married and was consumed with by life of giving birth and caring for my husband and children. After all, as a child of the 50s I was taught that that was my role. To make a long story short, one day I picked up a novel at the library, The Woman's Room by Marilyn French. I could see my life in the pages of a book and that was the beginning for me. I never protested or actively campaigned because all I saw in "those women" was a constant discounting of the lives of women who were not part of the movement. But I did keep reading and learning and as part of my career as a high school history teacher, I even taught young women about the oppression and the courage of the women who fought so hard for the choices they now have.
Secondly, I wonder how we became a nation ranting, raging, name-calling, and violence have become the way we communicate with each other. When did it become ok to make accusations with no facts to back them up? When did it become ok to say whatever is on your mind no matter who you hurt? Why do we now have to hate anyone or any group we disagree with? We no longer discuss, seek compromise, or show respect for others who we differ with. I too have turned the news off, cancelled the paper, and keep myself current by going to many sources on the internet. On New Years Eve 2014 I decided that kindness was going to rule my life. Please don't think that I don't fail. I do, but I start again. I am trying to be "the change I want to see in the world." It's a beginning.
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MKaren,
I appreciated the grace she showed, as a defeated candidate in 2008, not only supporting, but campaigning for and with President Obama.
I worked on Hillary's campaign and learned of inside knowledge to that meeting that took place at Diane Feinstein's house between Hillary and Obama, and trust me, she had NO choice, and NO grace, where I and her millions of supporters were concerned, when she caved to the male democratic dominating decision for her to step aside, give her votes and support to Obama. The deal was sealed with the Democratic party backing her all the way in 2016. She was a huge disappointment to me and millions of others who worked tirelessly to see her win the nomination, which she would have done had she not caved in. I never was a one party loyalist. I never vote a one party down the line ticket. I have always been an Independent, capable of seeing the best, and worst in all the parties ideology and policies. For me personally, Hillary has done some corrupt and criminal things that I refuse to turn a blind eye to. Ambassador Stevens was considered her friend, yet when they called for help she did nothing to aid those four Americans who died. Then she stood in front of their coffins, and in front of their loved ones, on national television and blatantly lied to those families and Americans, and said the attacks were due to a video, when she knew it was a lie, she had emailed her daughter Chelsea and the Libyan leader that very night and said it was a terrorist attack.
She has earned every dishonest and not trustworthy vote the polls show. I ask myself over and over again, when did this country deduce itself down to expecting so less in a candidate? When did we come to the point we are upholding and admiring a woman candidate because she is a woman, and yet know she is under criminal investigation by the FBI? One more week and one more scandal, and yet her supporters turn a blind eye. I suppose the only thing that will wake them up is if, and when the recommendation comes down for indictment, and this DOJ Loretta Lynch has the decency to do the job she is suppose to do, and prosecute her for her criminal acts if by the court of law she is found indeed to be guilty of, which in my opinion when she decided to destroy any of her emails that were on that private server, that had anything to do with her government dealings as SOS, she indeed committed a crime.
As to her capabilities she has failed in every area as SOS, from resetting the red button with Russia, to refusing help in the Benghazi attacks. She is the last person I would find competent or capable to be the next president. God help us because we have to choose from two candidates that should never have been nominated.
I am not a Hillary basher as some like to see those who see her for what she is, seems to be labeled. I am not a feminist who thinks a woman MUST be president, and it's Hillary's time. I am not a one party loyalist who will support the party's choice no matter what. I a woman, Independent voter, independent thinker, who refuses to bury my head in the sand, and support someone who I can not trust and who does not share the same ideology as I do. In 2008 she was a very different woman. Today she is entitled, and has built her wealth since the white house years and during her SOS, on the backs of denigrating women, by taking millions of dollars from nations who demoralize, and abuse women. Like any other criminal who breaks the law, the only house she needs to go to is the jailhouse.
http://nypost.com/2016/07/04/huma-abedin-admits-that-clinton-burned-daily-schedules/
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I respectfully disagree. Hillary is a politician who has a history. I do not interpret her withdrawal from the 2008 race the same way. I think she made a deal to work for Obama and he agreed to give her a position in his administration. It was a good deal for both of them. That's politics! When she "caved in" it was June and it was clear that she could not win enough delegates to get the nomination. Hillary asked and the President ordered troops to Benghazi, but for some reason the military never sent troops or support. The rest of the story that you seem to choose to accept is a Republican smear campaign. They really have done a good job at that, by the way. One is not a criminal until a court finds you guilty of committing a crime. Hillary has made mistakes; she does not walk on water. All of those who work in defending the security of this country have not always told the whole story. Secrecy is part of the job. So here I stand. As I said before, Hillary is the most qualified person to be President of the U.S.
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MKaren, like I said I worked to help get her the nominee, she in fact had more delegates than Obama, they stripped her of delegates and gave some to Obama. I was learning inside info the media refused to report. She in NO way wanted to give up her position. Think about it, why would she? It was a deal she was forced to make. She and Bill resent the Obamas to this very day because of how he was the favored candidate they had groomed, and very wealthy backers refused to back Hillary at the time. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinions or votes, just informing. She has committed a crime by destroying government emails. Those did not belong to her just because she decided to use her private server so she could do secret dealings for the Clinton foundation along with being SOS. It's a fact she and Bill made their wealth after leaving the White House off Saks & Goldman speeches she refuses to release, and from nations who abuse women and deny them any rights. The Ambassador was making deals with selling weapons to terrorist nations with the approval and knowledge of the administration when the Benghazi attack occurred. That is what they did not want the public to know so they invented the "video lie". Her email to her daughter and Libyan leader clearly stated it was a terrorist attack.
Like I said when did we as a nation decide to be okay with any person under FBI criminal investigation being able to run for the presidency? No wonder we have lost respect around the world, they see we have lowered our standards.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/real-benghazi-story.html
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Nothing to do with today but something that always stuck in my mind pictures were the various photos showing Congress at work before Obama ever announced and he was contently sitting next to the leaders of both the Senate and the House, especially next to Ted Kennedy. At the time and after his speech and the Democratic convention I had a feeling he was going to run for office.
Hillary never courted Congress - she is not today courting Congress - the idea of coming up through the ranks of first a party leader which is how the 'in' support is gathered, Hillary skipped - the old saying - it is not what you know it is who you know is kingpin in a good ol' boy system that regardless the few women in Congress it is still a good ol' boy system - from what I see, Hillary is currently and in the past has turned to others for her support and hopes to gain office by not dabbling in the in the system.
Notice Kerry who was close to Ted Kennedy (who ran things regardless if he had the leadership officially or not) - Obama befriended Ted Kennedy who went to bat for him - and today Kerry who is close to Obama and a friend of Ted Kennedy is not saying anything for or against Hillary - neither is Harry Reid and worrying, according to your politics is that since Obama has been in office the Dems have lost 13 Senate seats and 69 House seats and 12 Governorships - his machine to win was successful however, he also had the support of high ranking Dems. - he could not successfully transfer his support to other Dems running for office.
But back to 2007 - the lack of Democratic support not courted by Hillary may have been how they could get her to step aside - she had no alliances - typically you are a leader in the party before you run for any national office - Hillary skipped that when she ran for NY State Senator - by being strongly affiliated with the party is how you make contacts and build alliances - politics is not a one man show - if you noticed the Congressional support Obama had in 2008 either died or was voted out of office soon after and he has shown us he could not get things done as a one man show.
This time Hillary is attempting to win without the traditional support of the Democratic leadership other than saying to Obama, 'You owe me' - Instead she has turned to leaders in the women's movement, wall street bankers and other corporate leadership - she and Bill have courted these folks since they left the White House and they appear to be turning to them for their political support and they appear to be ignoring Congressional leaders.
What is strange and all sorts of gossip on facebook is how she and Huma Abedin are best buddies - she is the wife of Anthony Weiner - both these women were wounded by their husband's indiscretions, both decided to stay married and the talk is, Huma will be running the White House as Hillary's Chief of Staff. I see two women sharing the same history and two women who are not the darlings of the Democratic party establishment. Rather than courting party leadership Hillary got her pick, Debbie Wasserman Schultz as leader and she is being made the scape goat for all the ills during the primary.
So if we stop thinking one vote to a political picture, I'm thinking these notable associations may be a window to what is really going on and what happened that the Dems could set Hillary aside in 2007.
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I guess, Bellamarie, we are going to see Hillary through different lenses and that is ok. I respect your positions and opinions about her, but I will vote for her enthusiastically and that is all right too. Thanks for a great discussion
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Ginny - I have been a feminist all my life. I saw around me women and men along a broad spectrum of feminism. Of the group I knew here in South Jersey, none of them were bashing women who "stayed at home", in fact several of them were women who were staying at home, nor were they bashing women who went to work outside the home. All were concerned that women have all the rights and opportunities that were available to men and that they had the opportunities to make those choices for themselves.
I knew a woman whose husband refused to let her have a driver's license, one of the many ways he controlled her. She had 4 children by the time she was 30 and her doctor refused her birth control pills because she didn't meet some formula of his about number of children and her age. I knew women who didn't shave their legs on the principle that women were just fine in their natural state, and I knew women who did shave and each had no problem with the other. I knew women who wore make-up and women who didn't. I knew a woman who as a student at Rutger's Law School petitioned for, and successfully challenged Rutger's to start a daycare program. This list could be a long one, but I'll stop with reiterating the point that except for extreme radical groups, generally in the large cities, most feminists are just pro-women and want to help women be all that they want to be. Unfortunately, as usual, the media wants drama, and extremists create more drama then middle of the road feminists, so they got a lot of the press. Almost everybody I know thinks women should have equal opportunity, but the Rush Limbaughs of the world have made "feminist" a radical, shrill, dirty word. I still am proud to voice my feminism, and for that matter my "liberalism", which has also been kidnapped by hatemongers
I consider NOW to be middle of the road feminists, but they also have a broad spectrum of philosophies. which I have taught in my history classes is a good thing. Extremists, altho I might not agree with their terms or tactics, push the boundaries so the moderates can move forward. Am example you might remember is that when MLK met with Pres Kennedy about having a march on Washington, the Kennedys were concerned about the development of the Black Panthers, so they agreed they should "give something" to the moderates - King, Lewis, NAACP,etc - and they agreed to allow the March and to float a Civil Rts Bill. We need extremists to push the barricades, but I will never be one.
As I have said to many classes and to many groups "I am what a feminist looks like."
Jean
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You rock, Jean!!
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Your fortunate Jean - I have seen so much of bashing home-makers with awful grunting sounds and just plain 'we are better because...' - I have also seen a lot of bashing of men as well - when things got like that and they still are - it is difficult to respect a movement even though my life is far better because of the movement - reminds me of politics today where your viewpoint can only be shared among others who share your viewpoint - but the homemaker bashing started back in the late 70s and I have only seen it get worse including from some relatives who made it big on wall street as women. Sad. I did not like the power over control that homemakers experience but I still like much about the job and the older I get the more I find it has to be a secret because age and being a homemaker is like digging yourself an early grave.
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I have truly tried to look at it from every possible angle: to put every fact and occurrence on the table in order to attempt to see it from another viewpoint, but for the life of me, I cannot see why there is any conflict between the attack on the diplomatic compound in Benghazi being a terrorist attack, or having been thought to have been a terrorist attack, and it being thought that the CAUSE was a video that Muslims took offense at.
I mean, there is usually a REASON for a particular terrorist attack. There is a reason why they attack. So where is the conflict between the first speculations that were voiced to the effect that it was likely to have been the result of anger over that video and calling it a terrorist attack? Please point out to me, so that it makes sense in this dense old head, where there is a conflict or a "lie" in the two statements. Me, I just do not see a conflict there, or a lie, for that matter. Why could it not have been a terrorist attack that was set off by a hated video?
As for being a feminist, I am one. Have been one for years. I am a woman, you see, and I do not believe in my lifetime there has been an equal chance for women in so many fields, or an equal fairness for women under our laws. Yes, things have gotten better; but they are not equal yet. And they should be. But consider this: when you condemn feminists or Feminism, you are making a generalization toward a group who share one core opinion but VOICE it in a myriad ways. And that is just flat out not fair! Any tried and true blue feminist, and the dictionary, will tell you that feminism means believing in EQUAL rights of the sexes. Period. In other ways we differ as much as our personalities allow. As much as the adherents of any belief or philosophy or political system or religion or tribe anywhere on this planet differ in the particulars and intensities of their belief. So please don't shoot us all down with lurid accusations about our behavior! I shudder, as I never have and never would, for instance, burn a bra. Shucks, and seriously, I am not used to saying "bra" in public, as it is still, to my sensitivities, a private and intimate garment. I have had, and adored, three worthy husbands, feminists all, and really like men, as long as they truly admire women and believe fiercely in their equality under the law. I will rage like an animal whose young are threatened whenever and wherever I perceive that insidious masculine need to control. I still believe in all sincerity that the ERA should be passed.
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MaryPage,
I cannot see why there is any conflict between the attack on the diplomatic compound in Benghazi being a terrorist attack, or having been thought to have been a terrorist attack, and it being thought that the CAUSE was a video that Muslims took offense at.
First of all from the very night it happened this administration KNEW it was an organized terrorist attack on our American embassy, and did NOTHING. We know this for a FACT because Hillary emailed her daughter, the Libyan leader and the prime minister saying it was a terrorist attack. They have her email as proof! There was NO speculation, they KNEW it, and did not want to admit it because they had Ambassador Stevens over there making weapons deals with Saudi Arabia which were getting in the hands of jihadists, secondly our president had just made a statement that ISIS was contained and seen as a JV basketball team. He was neck and neck with Mitt Romney in the 2012 election. If Americans would have known they were lying about the video and knew it was a terrorist attack, then, he probably would not have been re elected. He did NOT want the arms deals or the terrorist attack to damage his chances of being re elected so they concocted the story of the video. There were cries for help and a "stand down" order was given, that is why the three special agents took it upon themselves to go try to save our Ambassador and the other Americans in the compound. Again...if we would have sent the help needed it would have been known our embassy was under a terrorist attack just months before the election. Too high a price for the president and SOS to take.
This is a sad day when the FBI Director Comey stands and gives a complete laundry list of the things Clinton is guilty of, and then says, “Although there is evidence of potential violations, our judgement is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case,”
It was NOT his call to decide if a prosecutor would take the case, it was his job to report the findings.
“This is not to suggest that in similar circumstances a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences,” Comey added. “To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now.”
It is no wonder that Americans have lost faith and trust in the justice system, congress, politicians and in our administration. Bill Clinton sealed the deal when he met with DOJ Loretta Lynch, the fix was in, now we are hearing Hillary say she could appoint Lynch as the Attorney General. I just hope the American people rise up against this gross misjustice at the polls in November. Comey said it is likely that hostile actors have her classified emails. This could make her weak and vulnerable if elected president, opening her up to blackmail. I want to one day see a woman as president, but NOT Hillary Clinton.
http://time.com/4393271/james-comey-fbi-hillary-clinton-email/
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Great discussion, Everybody.
I guess even tho I had looked up the definition of "feminist" the reason I asked the question has sort of been revealed here in the answers, but I appreciate the attempts anyway.
Jean, good for you in interjecting women's rights into your classes, that's wonderful.
There are a lot of pioneering women out there, too. I've got some in my family actually and I'm sure we all know some.
I have to quibble a bit about some of the examples, however. The woman whose husband wouldn't allow her to drive? Abuse is abuse, it's not gender oriented is it? Would her knowing she had equal rights have made a difference in an abusive relationship? Or maybe it's a more complicated problem which exists today actually.
As for the doctor's playing God, apparently she had no support and I'm sorry for her. Do you really think knowing that "women have equal rights" would have made a difference? Did she have no other recourse? Did nobody help her? How long ago was this? How do you know of her? Did the story have a happy ending?
I like what you're doing to try to help restore rights and dignity to all people. I think that even today however, there are abusive relationships.... on both sides, actually, despite everybody's new consciousness. There's an article in the July 11 People Magazine about an abused male in a relationship, Michael Santoro.
Karen, I loved that post also. Beautifully said.
Mary Page: So please don't shoot us all down with lurid accusations about our behavior!
Where do you see somebody "shooting you down with lurid accusations about [your] behavior" here?
when you condemn feminists or Feminism, you are making a generalization toward a group who share one core opinion but VOICE it in a myriad ways. And that is just flat out not fair!
Who is "you" here? I don't see anybody condemning feminists or Feminism but hark! I see somebody doing the exact same thing to men...read on...
I will rage like an animal whose young are threatened whenever and wherever I perceive that insidious masculine need to control.
I totally disagree with the second part of your statement. Since when is the need to control "masculine?" I don't see this characterization in any definition of feminism which you referred us to.
You want to watch a flock of chickens. I hate to introduce birdbrains into such an erudite discussion but in any flock of female hens, should a male be absent, one of the females will take on the dominant "insidious male controlling" role (it's called "pecking order.") Not only will this hen control the flock, this hen will do so with violence. She will mount the others as if having sex without the ability to do so, and she will grab them by the neck more viciously than any rooster I ever saw, and twist. This is not an isolated phenomenon, it's common.
Should food be thrown into the pen, the others won't go near it lest ol Control Freak attack them.
This is not the only animal or bird which exhibits controlling behavior. It's not something solely the provenance of the male in the animal or human kingdom, anthropology has proven that. And to say it is, I think, is very telling.
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There is a huge difference since the women's movement so that individual woman do receive different treatment because of the movement but I too remember when getting a driver's license was not agreed to by all husbands and I remember getting a ticket and the Judge making a big statement aloud in the court room about women should not be driving because this is the result.
As to Doctor's it was the same thing - even having a baby you had no say in how you were helped or in some cases if the baby was born with a problem the doctor and husband decided if it would live or die.
A woman could not get a loan on her own - could not have her own bank account unless she was wealthy and family attorney not only set it up but was listed on the account. If you were pregnant you had to leave your job before you were showing on and on it went till the 70s started some changes that grew over the next 10 to 15 years so that now we easily forget what it was like in the 50s and 60s and even most of the 70s for women.
Unfortunately the baby was thrown out with the bath water when women were degraded by other women because they chose to be homemakers - it started in the 70s when while shopping or in the street other women thought nothing of coming up to a mom wheeling a baby carriage and telling her what to do with the baby and worst the criticisms of how the baby was dressed or was sitting wrong or was sucking their thumb or a sucky or should be walking or home in bed not out so late - on and on - very respectful and supportive of a Mom I must say... that is sarcasm folks...
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I don't have those same memories but I remember getting a drivers license in the 50's in the same South Jersey Jean was in. The world was a different place 60 years ago, not only for women, but for civil rights, too and a lot of other things. LOTS of other things.
I don't know what period of time we're talking about but thankfully I do know what it was to be working and pregnant in the '60s and '70's.
I do remember, however, when women could not get a credit card in their own names and to this day the phone is in my husband's name because that's what I put it in when I, (notice I) signed up for it. Also the power bill. To this day the social security number on some bills is mine. ATT will not give me an Iphone in my own name, it's in his, with my social security number, he doesn't even HAVE an iphone, and I have actually had to call him to the phone to tell them it was OK to talk to me. Yes. In 2016. Irritates him no end. And I have explained this till I'm blue in the face to them to no avail. They understand but it stays the same.
So I guess the more some things change the more they stay the same.
They are trying to protect HIM, they say...I guess instead of celebrating our 49th in a few months, he needs protection just in case I get divorced, instead, and I feel the need to what...hijack his /my phone? hahahaa
Just kidding. It's not a feminist issue. It's keeping the name given them when the account was taken out ..well.... 49 years ago. We could be two men, same thing. (Of course 49 years ago 2 men would not be married, would they?) They might be together, but not legally married.
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Counseling couples through a divorce has also changed, especially with 'no-fault' divorce. I remember women applauding this change, but it does not seem to have helped their situation. It was supposed to take the anger and vindictiveness out of the process - to 'stop the blaming', I guess. In one case the husband owned a business and the wife was a teacher. She confronted him and he admitted he was in an affair. He filed for bankruptcy, went on aid from social services and was set up in an apartment. A couple of months later she got a bill for all of the aid the county had extended him even though, as she argued, he could have remained in the house they both owned. Social Services explained that he was an adult and they couldn't force him to return home and, since they were still married, she was responsible for his debts. Sometimes 'progress' seems backward.
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Ginny,
and I have actually had to call him to the phone to tell them it was OK to talk to me. Yes. In 2016. Irritates him no end. And I have explained this till I'm blue in the face to them to no avail. They understand but it stays the same.
I have had the same situation. I pay all our bills, but if I call any company to dispute or inquire about the bill and it is in my husband's name they say they can not discuss it with me, I need to put him on the phone. I do understand the reason for this, women and men going through a divorce have secretly withdrawn all the funds out of bank accounts, have ran up credit cards to the max, and have even cancelled credit cards, store accounts and utilities trying to get out of responsibility, or out of revenge to the spouse. Companies have taken some serious losses due to this, and so now they have tried to protect themselves from this type of behavior. The funny thing is, if a husband or wife knows their SS# and puts a woman or man on saying they are the wife/husband how on earth do the companies know for certain it is the person they asked to speak to? One time I was so frustrated, I said I am my husband's name. The person said, "You are Joe?" I said, "Yes, I am." :D
I fear in trying so hard to get equal rights the feminist have taken on a bit of an angry attitude as if they have to fight even women. I will fight for my rights, but I don't feel I need to become masculine in doing it, or be a bully, or judge other women if they feel differently. For me personally, I love being a woman and all it entails different from a man. I like knowing there are things I can do because of my gender, and I also like knowing there are some things I can not do because of my gender. I'm really happy and comfortable being a woman, a wife, a Mom, a sister, an aunt, and a girlfriend to my female friends. I'm not a pushover, I'll take on tough jobs, and I'll stand up to any wrong I see, but I don't want women or anyone else to go so far in fighting, they take away the differences of genders. Even transgenders want to acknowledge they are indeed one particular gender, even if it is not the one they were born and lived with.
Barb, Unfortunately the baby was thrown out with the bath water when women were degraded by other women because they chose to be homemakers -
You are so right about this. I see feminists constantly judging and bullying women because they don't fall in line with their thinking. My philosophy is, live and let live.
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I am with you on this one, Bellamarie. Does anyone else feel patronized at a garage when either servicing or buying a car? It has gotten to the point that the last time I bought a car, I took a male friend Who repeated each time they tried to talk to him, "You need to talk to her."When I first started teaching history, I was ignored in all male meetings of history teachers, who mostly talked football. Here is the one that really galls me. For years teachers, at least in Maine, have endured low pay because it is dominated field by women, who, the reasoning goes a really making a second paycheck and do not need to support their families. As late as the Eighties I heard that as I negotiated the teachers contract for my district.
I did work outside the home as my children grew up because for most of the time I was a single mom. I was a teacher who worked days, nights, and "vacations," to prepare to teach world and us history to high school kids. I researched , read, planned, attended workshops, and kept educating myself all the summers that I taught. Most of the time I was working I felt guilty that I was not with my kids; when I was with my kids, I felt guilty that I was not at work. Frequently, I was told by other women how "easy" my job was, how terrible teachers are these days, and "Teaching is a nice little job for a woman."
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https://iq.intel.com/how-hedy-lamarr-invented-early-wireless-technology/
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Mkaren - i too was a history teacher and still present a women's history series at the library. I'm not sure anyone who has not taught can understand how much preparation it takes, if you want to be a good teacher. Every category of academia is changing so fast that constant research is a necessity. And, especially in our field, there are all those exams to prepare and then grade. :(
I liked your image of the history dept and all the football talk. I once got a job because the principal said everybody he had interviewed was a coach who thought he could teach history and he wanted a history teacher who might want to coach. Because all of those coaches were researching football plays they didn't have much time to do research in history. That's why many students don't like history, it is made so dull and boring for them.
Now I'm not knocking all coaches. One of the best principals I ever had had been a state champion basketball coach at the school and he gave six of us paid summer time to set up a team-taught humanities course based on my world cultures course. It was a fabulous course with the English teacher having the students reading literature FROM the time and culture; the music teacher provided info about the music, the art teacher did a segment on the art and architecture; an ex-priest did segments on philisophy and religion. What fun!!
Jean
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Your program sounds great!
We were involved in a Study Center that offered tutoring to homeschoolers that followed the Christian and Classical Model. Here a chronological view of history forms the backbone of the program with literature, math, science and the other humanities as arms around it. Latin began in sixth grade and high school students were offered courses in rhetoric and logic as well. It is a great way to learn history. All of the homeschool families/groups I know use this model.
You get a very different view of history when you read the literature of the time. I am still amazed at the courage of Dante who wrote his trilogy using the names of his contemporaries and who wrote in the common tongue, rather than Latin, so it was accessible to all.
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MKaren,
I was told by other women how "easy" my job was, how terrible teachers are these days, and "Teaching is a nice little job for a woman."
Grrr.... I get so upset knowing this attitude has existed forever. I was the technology guru, and taught computers in the subjects of math, english, science and critical thinking along with the basic computer skills and keyboarding. I would use programs to prepare the eighth graders for their high school entry tests. I had grades K-8 in a Catholic elementary school. Because I did not have a "teaching degree", I was always looked at as just the fun easy aide. I began the technology program from bottom up, taught all the teachers, principal and students computer programs, and was selected through our Diocese to teach workshops for High School teachers who had never used computers before, at our local college, yet still I was looked at as an "aide." My male principal actually treated me with more respect than the female teachers or principal. When he left and I had a female principal who did not even know how to turn on a power button on her computer, she proceeded to treat me with so little respect and dignity that I left at Christmas break, after teaching for fifteen years. Women can really be harsh judging other women.
Jean and Mogamom, your programs sound like I would have enjoyed learning history, which I never did throughout my years in school.
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Just a follow-up on the two who were arrested in filming Planned Parenthood. All charges were dropped; wonder if they will get an apology and/or if someone will sue for harassment, et al.? Wonder how this will affect Panned Parenthood's federal suit?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/charges-dropped-against-anti-abortion-activists-for-texas-video-recording/ar-BBuTRQ8?li=BBnb4R7&ocid=DELLDHP
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I am thrilled to have lived to see a woman being a candidate for president. Doris Kearns Goodman said "there were 43 men as POTUS, now maybe there will be 43 women!" I don't think that will happen, we Americans tend to like to change the staus quo on a regular basis, but I have no doubt that there will be several more women running in all the POTUS primaries from now on. I doubt if I'll live to see another woman or person of color, but I'm grateful that I saw these "firsts".
Jean
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Mogomom - teaching rhetoric and logic sounds like such a good idea. I think every student should also have a civics course. Few people these days seem to understand how our govt works. When I taught in Pa in the 60s all sophmores got a semester of "Problems of Democracy". I always enjoyed teaching that course and when I taught US History 101 in college, I spent a lot of time on the writing of the constitution because I knew most of the students had never had even an introduction to the constitution.
Bellmarie - I am always amazed and saddened by the way some academics can be so snobby about who has what, if any, degrees. Yes, I think institutions need to be sure their instructors are qualified, but sometimes qualifications don't necessarily include degrees. Apparently the more prestigious the institutions the worse it can be. I've heard some horrendous stories about Harvard faculty and students. I have never taken a "women's history" course, part of that being that I'm so old that there were no women's history courses available when I was in college. :). I am totally self-taught in the subject, ala B Franklin, T Jefferson, etc! Lol
Jean
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mabel1015j - I was really dismayed to hear that the only high school subject our NY Regents Board decided did not require a regents exam was American History! More than ever this is an essential course (or the Civics course that used to be taught) to fulfill the goal of having an educated electorate, I would think. Science and Math are important too, but if we don't know the founding documents of our country and our Constitution, or if we don't know how to articulate our thoughts - our reasoning - how can we hope to be good citizens? Of course, the push of globalists is that we should all give up our national constitutions.
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mabel1015j - I was really dismayed to hear that the only high school subject our NY Regents Board decided did not require a regents exam was American History! More than ever this is an essential course (or the Civics course that used to be taught) to fulfill the goal of having an educated electorate, I would think. Science and Math are important too, but if we don't know the founding documents of our country and our Constitution, or if we don't know how to articulate our thoughts - our reasoning - how can we hope to be good citizens?
I totally agree.
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Mary Page I don't see your red posts much these days. Keep up the good work I enjoy your posts
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Please those who enjoy reading the writing of women before they were recognized as worthy - there is a book that I would love to read and the lest expensive is $80 - Amazon does not have a copy and the one on eBay is $113
The author is a young woman no longer with the university in Manchester and this site says you can ask her to upload a copy of the book - would you please consider requesting she do that - it is easy - just a bunch of clicks and register with your facebook account - the book is
Flesh and Spirit: An anthology of seventeenth-century women's writing (Texts in Culture) by Rachel Adcock
and here is the page where we can ask her to upload a PDF of the book - I went back to the beginning which is to click on the second book that takes you to a page that suggests you ask her and then you register and then one more page where you hit the button that automatically registers the request .
https://www.academia.edu/26903556/Flesh_and_Spirit_An_Anthology_of_Seventeenth-Century_Womens_Writing
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Phyllis Schlafly: What an accomplished woman!
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2016-09-05.html
(I read other accounts of her passing, but the one above seemed the most thorough, though with some editorializing to gloss over.)
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The irony of Schafley was that she was out on the stump (and going to law school and writing books, etc, etc) everyday telling women they should stay ay home with their children.
Here is another perspective on her. By the way, i think Coulter's column is a little too laudatory and the Nation column is a little too derisive.
https://www.thenation.com/article/what-phyllis-schlafly-might-have-been-if-it-werent-for-women-like-phyllis-schlafly/
Jean
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Ah, yes...I've read both sides. Still, no one can refute her accomplishments. Since she homeschooled her children perhaps they traveled with her? What an education that would be! That is, after all, one of the great benefits of homeschooling - your children are not divorced from your life, but actually living it with you.
I'd have to read more of her books and material about her to figure out the chronology of it all; that is, how many/what ages children were at various points of her work, etc.
At least no one on thenation.com was celebrating her death, wishing it had been sooner, suggesting she should have been murdered, etc. as have been found in tweets through the more liberal sites. She believed deeply in conservatism and engaged others in honest debate from a well-informed and knowledgeable position. To make your choice of life, be influential in your world, show strength and grace under pressure/persecution, all without engaging in lies, ad hominem remarks, or returning reviling for reviling all seem to be the best of womankind to me.
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A great tribute to another great woman, Amelia Earhart!
http://www.popsci.com/newly-discovered-lunar-crater-named-after-amelia-earhart
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BookTV is wonderful. This is broadcast on CSpan2 on weekends. It's devoted to nonfiction books and authors. Tonight it was sheer pleasure to listen to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg talk. This program was recorded on 14 September 2016. She has a book coming out next month ("My Own Words"), but it was a wide-ranging talk with lots of questions and answers. Such a delight (and I'm sure you could find it on line).
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I'll look for that Mary. She seems to feel perfectly comfortable giving her comments about her life and current events.
Jean
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From the Clinton campaign:
Clinton: Podesta emails re women:
http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/
1. Clinton campaign refuses to report sexual harassment (then forwards complaint to harasser) https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/16137#efmAMpAQKAQMAR6AVzAYLAf_AhD
•“I was recently contacted by a source who claims to have worked on the 2008 Hillary Clinton campaign and is alleging that Marlon Marshall made unwelcome sexual advances and propositions towards women on the campaign repeatedly. The allegation is that he would "corner women, make them uncomfortable and make suggestions about having sex."
•“The source also claims that Robby Mook was made aware of the issue, but declined to act on it or intervene because he is personal friends with Marshall.”
2. Using female senator to conjure fake sexist claims against Bernie
3. Worried that Bernie supporters and younger women "hate her so much (they) might even vote for a Republican"
I just don't see how anyone can believe that Clinton is a defender of women? These represent 3 different sets of emails but all are archived on the link above.
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My problem with the hack of Podesta's email is that the discussions do not include Hillary and they are "how about if........" kind of discusions of how to proceed in the campaign. We've all been in those brain-storming kinds of sessions and would certainly not want to be held accountable for all the ideas that get thrown on the table.
If I have to coose between DT's attitudes about women and Hillary's??? No contest, she wins!
Jean
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Y'all need to know our Ella passed during the night - Annie called Ginny and posted the news in the Book Club discussion that Ella actually started and kept us going with her wonderful spirit till the last week or so. Prayers for Cindy, her daughter.
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I also offer condolences to the friends and family of Ella. So sorry for their loss.
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If people are getting their information about the Podesta e-mails from: AP, Univision, Washington Post, NYT, Boston Globe (who acknowledged their bias), Politico, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, C-Span, Chris Cuomo, Jake Tapper, Donna Brazlle, John Harwood Facebook, Google (and maybe more; that's as far as I have looked), these have been implicated in the emails for their bias.
Of course, all women do not feel supported by Clinton:
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/when-hillary-ignored-the-rape-of-an-american-journalist-in-egypt/
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If people are getting their information about the Podesta e-mails from: AP, Univision, Washington Post, NYT, Boston Globe (who acknowledged their bias), Politico, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, C-Span, Chris Cuomo, Jake Tapper, Donna Brazlle, John Harwood Facebook, Google (and maybe more; that's as far as I have looked), these have been implicated in the emails for their bias.
Of course, all women do not feel supported by Clinton:
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/when-hillary-ignored-the-rape-of-an-american-journalist-in-egypt/
So, who is left that you think is unbiased? Fox News, Limbaugh or ?
Is http://www.factcheck.org also biased?
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Jane from what my 'liberal' friends and I deduce, even though our politics is very different Mogamon is right - corporate media is no longer unbiased -
We have been turning to the Guardian - yes a British paper but their US news is not tainted nor is their world news - Democracy Now with Amy Goodwin - the Atlantic Monthly - the Young Turks is good but very pro Democrat and pro Hillary - but at least their news is often on the spot videos and reporters are bringing the entire story, only after do they explain it from their bias.
There is a lot to not like about Trump but he is blowing the cover off lots of secrets and pulling the rug out from under the establishment - he is another version of what Bernie was early on, as both slid back the curtain.
Yes, I was a Bernie follower and prefer what Chris Hedges and Chomsky have to say - here is a wonderful video of Chris Hedges on the Amy Goodwin show that says a lot about both parties and the media and is not even too friendly to Bernie - but he says it as many of the authors are writing today -
https://www.facebook.com/DeprogramYourself/videos/1662396017413339/
Books that I've been reading that say much of what Chris says using their words from their viewpoint.
The Party is Over by Mike Lofgren - He has another newer book that is this plus more...
By the People by Charles Murray -
Tower of Basel by Adam Lebor -
Shock Doctrine forget the author -
All the Presidents' Bankers by Nomi Prins -
The best Democracy Money Can buy by Greg Palast -
Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill -
The Shadow Party by Horowitz ---
What I want to read is -
Web of Debt: The Shocking Truth about Our Money System and How We Can Break Free by Ellen Brown -
The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy by Peter Scott -
Unholy Trinity: The IMF, World Bank and WTO by Richard Peet -
I like the article about the ballet describing Chomsky - We need to educate ourselves to how folks can take advantage of the Democratic system and turn it into another system - the goals of the Constitution have been hijacked by the desire for individual profit
http://www.vice.com/read/i-went-to-a-noam-chomsky-ballet
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I have just returned to Senior Learn after having been absent for approx. ten years. Some of you may remember my name. As I look at the various names I see many familiar ones, some of whom I met personally. In Senior Net I was the discussion leader for Story of Civilization. I have just retired from having been a clinical psychologist for the past 25 years. In this period of time I forgot some of my electronic skills and am struggling to getting back to communicating properly. Please be patient with me as I recover what I used to know and have forgotten.
Robby
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Hurray - thanks for posting with us again Robbie and welcome back - looking forward to your participation - has it really been 10 years? Golly that time flew by...
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As far as what - or who - to believe in the news, I do what I was taught to do (and which I encourage young people to do) which is to go as often as possible to original sources. This is becoming increasingly difficult as the internet is becoming more censored, but there are still ways to navigate around it. The sites BarbStAubrey gives are very helpful.
President Obama has courted Facebook and Google (Google even wanted to run Hillary's campaign) and has hired journalists from major media outlets, like the NYT. That should make everyone's ears prick up. That, coupled with the piece on David Brock having forged media alliances whom he could contact with 'talking points' on any subject and have them all go with the story - and the fact that the Fed govt has spent 1.5 billion dollars on PR (aka propaganda) - should alert even the most inattentive person to the dangers. When the whole troop of established media outlets gives the same story exactly the same way - even using the same phrases to describe it - there has to be a common source, wouldn't you think?
When Hillary Clinton is elected (I agree with Assange that the powers that be will not allow her to lose - see link below, for instance - after all, as we used to say, she knows where all the bodies/dirt are buried) she has already been an adamant advocate of getting rid of conservative radio with FCC regulations, regulating (aka, censoring) the internet, and punishing contrary speech. Already, places like the NYT have announced that they will not accept or publish any stories that question the 'fact' of climate change; Norton on my computer will refuse to open sites it deems as 'hate'; and attempting to understand a muslim group mentioned in an article I went to their site to see if they actually state what they were purported as believing/stating, and a message flashed on the screen that my opening that site was reported to a govt agency. All in the name of security. I'm almost ready to agree with those that tell me the Left is using radical Islam (and thus the need for security) to impose censorship and control speech/thought.
I just think it is enormously interesting that the very people who marched against the Establishment in the '60's - and vehemently defended free speech, viciously attacking any attempt at censorship even in public schools with minors- is now on the side of strict censorship of certain political/religious/cultural views/beliefs/traditions.
You bring up Limbaugh - and I know he is viewed with disdain on this site (as I assume other conservative groups are) but - like him or not - he has actually discerned what is happening before our very eyes, even as the more 'acceptable' media refuses to recognize it, or find that it does not suit their agenda to point it out. So, yes, I do listen to conservative - and liberal - talk shows when I can. We were taught to look at it ALL with a grain of salt, with a healthy skepticism.
I do also go to the British outlets. The trick is to read -and listen - between the lines; note names that keep cropping up together and explore where they came from and how they know each other; in other words, become a news sleuth. Another thing I pay attention to is what terms the Left brands the Right with, then wait. Soon you find them engaged in that behavior themselves. People are tired of the hypocrisy on both sides. As soon as someone thinks lying is fine for their cause, the game is up.
I always used to admire how liberals came together under pressure and took care of one another. Now I'm starting to think that this is just a form of mutual protection as they are all guilty together. Kind of a take on: we must all hang together or we wil surely hang separately?
https://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2016/11/07/leaked-documents-reveal-expansive-soros-funding-to-manipulate-federal-elections/
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Gwen Ifill (1955-2016)
What a loss to the world of honest journalism!
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Yes, it has been forever that I actually had to cry at the loss of a national figure - it may have been Kennedy - I was so thankful they devoted that much time to waking her on the NewsHour this evening.
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I, too, was shocked to read Gwen had died of cancer at 61. She was such a great journalist. She'll sure be missed by us on the News Hour and Washington Week.
The tributes tonight were wonderful.
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Would Trump's comments about women be considered a "women's issue?"
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Oh Robby - it could be but to me it is a political issue - nothing new, we know how woman have been labeled and talked about and it never stopped - at least now it is out in the open and not inferred by those who share a similar opinion.
I am just tired of hearing about how wounded folks feel over this election - I just want to turn the page and learn as much as I can about Trump and watch what is going on by both parties since they both have to rebuild - and realize like kids in the 3rd grade that did not get multiplication - they hid it till algebra - that is how I see the nasty talk made public - it was simply hid since most of us got it - now we have to go back and use different teaching methods to change the hearts and minds of those who did not get it 20 or more years ago.
Sure does not feel uplifting that these pages were about - helping us take pride in our gender - however it appears we all will be engaged in a do-over.
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Hi Robby - nice to see you back. You may remember that History of Western Civ was my first contact with SL and I loved every minute of it and here we are - how many yrs later?
I found this list of 100 women authors and what book of theirs you should read first. :D. Now who do you suppose read all those authors to figure that out. I suppose it was a collaborative of librarians. Eh, Frybabe.
http://www.wrl.org/books-and-reading/adults/100-contemporary-american-women-fiction-writers
Jean
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Is it just in my family or does the holiday season add many new chores to a woman's schedule? My husband does do more of the Christmas shopping since he's retired, but his contribution to events tends to be telling the rest of us what we should, or shouldn't, be doing. 😋
I have loved the holidays over the years, but the decorating and the cooking and the planning are not as much fun as they used to be. They take more energy than I have at this age and it takes longer longer to do anything - I need lots of rests stops. My 14 yr old grandson helped me put up and trim the tree the last two years, and that was fun, but oh, I hurt for two days after.
Jean
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Last year I released a novel titled Regarding Tiberius. The entire 195,000-word, 580 pp. book was written from the perspective of a biracial woman in the Roman-era Middle East. FWIW I am a white male who lives in the Upper Midwest of the US.
The question I have to ask is this:
Did I get the tone right with regard to the narrator's feminine voice?
Helena, my protagonist, is very bright, well-educated, and Jack-Bauer-level decisive. But does she still sound like a woman when you read her? I've had a few readers say no, she's a bit too rigid/masculine in her ruthless decision-making, while most others are fine with the depiction, identifying with her completely.
Many thanks for any reflections.
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Reminding Everyone - We open the pre-discussion to Cranford this week.
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A story that focuses on Women, 150 years ago in an English Village.
We are trying something new by way of an introduction to our discussion leader for Cranford, Karen.
So let's have some fun learning a bit more about Karen and her love of Victorian Literature.
Barb: Karen how did you become interested in Victorian Literature?
Karen: My mother joined a book club for me when I was eleven years old and each month a new book came for me. I fell in love with Victorian novels through that book club: Black Beauty, Little Lord Fauntleroy, Around the World in 80 Days, Alice in Wonderland, and Little Women.
I loved stories about the rich and the poor, about the "olden days" and about overcoming problems. I also, in those days, loved adventure stories and strange characters. I also loved fairy tales with the lords and the castles, the princesses, and even the wicked witches.
My first assignment in high school was to complete David Copperfield during the first quarter. That was my formal introduction to the Victorian novel. In spite of its being the longest novel I had ever read, I loved it and went on to read poems, essays, and novels from that age as part of my formal education. My love for literature from this period kept growing.
Barb: Looks like you were drawn to the Victorian Period - did you continue this love with scholastic study?
Karen: I taught world history to 9th and 10th graders and had to do much preparation because my undergraduate work had been mostly in speech and English. At the same time the National Endowment for the Humanities offered a summer program in teaching the humanities using an integrated approach:with history as a base, bringing in the literature, art, and the music from the time period.
I went on to be accepted into two NEH six-week workshops: one was on Chaucer and the Medieval World and the second was at Oberlin College and was on 19th century women writers. I developed a medieval unit and a 19th century British history unit, incorporating literature art and music from both the romantic and the Victorian age.
Barb: Ah - So both the Romantic and the Victorian period was on your radar?
Karen: Yes, and at this same time I started a Master of Liberal Studies degree with a focus in Victorian Literature. I actually wanted to design a Victorian Studies elective for my high school students. I took courses in the essay, poetry, and the novel and completed the coursework I needed. However, as school reform kicked into high gear, electives were no longer part of the curriculum, so I never had a chance to put my plan into action. But my interest and love for the time period and the novels from the period led me to agree to lead a discussion here on Cranford as an excellent example of a Victorian novel.
Barb: How special for us. Of course there is an entire discussion in itself about the wisdom of eliminating electives however, we are going to really benefit from your love and study of Victorian Literature. What would you say is special about the Victorian period? Give us a glimpse into the life lived during this time in history.
Karen: The Victorian Age in both history and literature refers to the time that Victoria ruled 1837-1901. In literature it was preceded by romanticism and followed by realism and modernism.
Historically it was a time of peace and prosperity for the upper and middle classes. The population of England doubled during this period and improvements in transportation opened up the rural areas to the urban dwellers. The industrial workers in the cities, in contrast, lived in squalor and poverty. Frequently the whole family had to work with the smallest children chained to the weaving machines pick up bobbins that fell underneath.
During the age, improvements in sanitary conditions, medical treatment, and the coming of electric power and lights improved the quality of life in the cities, but poor houses and orphanages abounded.
Barb: Wow! Although typical of Victorian life, the hardships of so many sound like realism enough doesn't it - Like all difficult life situations, authors can find the goodness beneath the rough veneer. It sounds like the readership was encouraged by reading how various improvements were making change and so they wanted more of this genre. Is this the difference highlighted in a story between earlier and later Literary periods?
Karen: Romanticism grew out French Revolution which sought to cast off the the institutions of the Old Regime: the Church, the aristocracy, the absolute monarchy and put power in the hands of the common man.
Poetry which expressed strong emotion and an awe for nature, broke the forms and the rules of classicism. The poets looked at the world with optimism, espoused strong nationalism and interests in the past and in the bizarre.
In summary, it was a revolt against the rationalism of the classical period.
Barb: Thank you Karen - you have now opened our eyes and hearts to this time in history. Cannot wait to get started with Cranford - So glad you agreed to guide us through this story and now we have historical happenings to look for before we even start our introduction to the characters.
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Pre-discussion for Cranford opens
Tomorrow, Wednesday, January 4, 2017
Come Join this Historical but Timely Discussion
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Post Interview - Karen has a few more nuggets that you will want to read...
Karen: During the Victorian Age, the novel came into prominence because serialization started in the periodicals of the day, which most people could afford to buy.
These novels were different than the poetry and novels of the Romantic Age. Novelists like Dickens, Gaskell, George Elliot looked at life with more realistic eye and held up the dark and seamy parts of life amid prosperity of the period. The works were intended to raise the awareness of the reader to the abuses that came with the Industrial Age.
As Victorian Age came to a close in 1901 the path had been paved for the return to the realism of modernism.
Barb:Interesting Karen how we are in the same place again aren't we, with technology again changing our lives so that most books are now inexpensively read from our communication devise and again, the dark and seamy parts of life is part of the prosperity of our times.
Karen: Yes, as the famous Dickens quote from the Tale of Two Cities reminds us...
"It was the best of times,
it was the worst of times,
it was the age of wisdom,
it was the age of foolishness,
it was the epoch of belief,
it was the epoch of incredulity,
it was the season of Light,
it was the season of Darkness,
it was the spring of hope,
it was the winter of despair,
we had everything before us, we had nothing before us,
we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way—"
— in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
Dickens serialized this book in 1859 telling a tale about the French Revolution , that occurred 60 years before. " the period was so far like the present period" in the midst of the Industrial Revolution. Readers can take this even further and repeat the same quote in 2017 about the impact of the technological revolution.
Barb:Thank you Karen, you have offered us more reasons to read Cranford to learn how the ladies of Cranford handle change. It appears Elizabeth Gaskell was a classical writer in the true sense having chosen an ever present theme of change that has been with us since the beginning of time.
Lots to talk about - settle in with your 'cupa' tomorrow and share your thoughts related to change and Elizabeth Gaskell.
For this Book of the Month read there will be no need to haunt the library.
Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell in available online in several locations.
The Cranford Discussion starts next week.
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On Facebook this morning, there was a terrific picture of Michele Obama with a caption that said won't we be glad to get rid of her. Am I missing something? Another post said that she has been the worst first lady ever. Is this just pure racism/sexism or did she do something to anger people?
I won't be glad to see Michele Obama go, but I bet she will be glad to leave.
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For me, that's 150% pure politics.
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Oh they'll miss her when she's gone, just wait.
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I saw a small part of an interview with Michelle and, although I would not agree with many of her views, I find her to be a strong and lovely woman. And I especially admire how she cared for her family in sometimes very trying times; shielding your young daughters while teaching/guiding them through often disparate events shows the level of skill, empathy, insight, and prudence required to be a mother in such a situation.
She did say that she would miss the White House - after all, her girls grew up there; eight years is a good chunk of their lives. She also talked about missing the staff, being taken care of so well, and surrounded by people who love you. It would have to be a huge adjustment, I would think, to leave such a place. I wish her and her family well.
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It must create terrible anxiety to be a member of the First Family, fearing everytime the president goes out that some nut will try to kill him. I have talked (thru the tv😁) to the secret service, more than once "get him out of the room" when a president has been working the "rope-lines."
Yes, all the benefits would be nice, but there are some big negatives. I think all of our first families have been sophisticated and dignified. I've seen 13 of them in my lifetime. Michelle continued that tradition and the girls have been wonderfully well-behaved. I am looking forward to see what each member of the Obama family does over the next 20 yrs.
Jean
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I saw the thing she did with James Corden, when a celebrity joins him in his car and they drive around rapping. She was brilliant and very funny. She said on that show that she would not really mind giving up all the creature comforts of the White House. He asked her if she would miss being able to phone the kitchen at any time of the day or night for some toasted cheese - she replied:
'I think I can make my own toasted cheese, James' :)
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I think that things she has said like that impress me the most: she seems so down-to-earth and unpretentious - so genuine, approachable. Even though she may have enjoyed all the perks of her position, she doesn't seem 'taken in' by it.
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Prominent historian Thomas Fleming died this week. He wrote a lot of fiction about the Revolutionary period, both non-fiction and non-fiction. This is a piece from the NYTs obit
Mr. Fleming had been writing history books filled with powerful men for nearly 50 years when, in 2009, he chose to focus on the influence of the wives, mothers and girlfriends of Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Adams and James Madison.
He chronicled the women’s stories collectively in “The Intimate Lives of the Founding Fathers,” which The Washington Post called it a “well researched peek into the boudoirs of America’s political architects.”
Mr. Fleming had already written novels from a female perspective; one was “The Officers’ Wives,” a bestseller in 1981. He also benefited from the increasing availability of the women’s letters.
One powerful woman in “Intimate Lives” was Mary Ball, Washington’s mother. Mr. Fleming told C-Span in 2010 that she “had a ferocious temper and was very strong-willed, and she tried to make George her faithful servant.”
To escape her influence, he said, Washington wanted to join the Royal Navy, but his half brother Lawrence intervened. “Imagine how different the country would have been” if Washington had served Britain, Mr. Fleming said.
Here is the whole obit
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/books/thomas-fleming-dead-historian-and-historical-novelist.html
Jean
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Thanks, Jean!
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My morning cruise through Project Gutenberg garnered this little "gem" in opposition to Women's Sufferage by Catharine Beecher. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/56090 It appears to be speeches and letters by the author. The last letter is a description of a flawed survey (my opinion) of women with an aim to show that industrialization is detrimental to women's health. Ought to be interesting reading, and thankfully, fairly short.
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Thanks Frybabe, don’t you just love the “gems” in Gutenberg.? I have several history e-newsletters that I get each week which are often delightful to scan through. It is particularly interesting to read the philosophy of a variety opeople at various points in history, especially pertaining to controversial issues.
Here is a link to an article from Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B Anthony’s newspaper “Woman or Man: Who is Superior?” The last line says when women get the vote men will not think they are superior, but see women as equals - that was 100 years ago, we’re still working on that thinking.
http://www.accessible-archives.com/2017/12/man-woman-superior/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AccessibleArchives+%28Accessible+Archives+Inc.%29